NSWE Investment

[Rudy Can't Fail]

If you think a new city centre brand new build will recapture of the magic of say the old Trinity I would brace yourself to be disappointed as it's much more likely it would be indistinguishable from all the other boring bowls.

It really doesn't have to be. See Paul_e's post a few months back with a quick AI red brick frontage example of what can be done.

Wherever we end up playing in the future, I'd really like to see a big increase in capacity, 65k+ that would allow us to maintain our traditional fanbase without having to constantly increase prices. Affordable ticket pricing can work, it just requires a bit of vision.

[Chris Harte]

Wherever we end up playing in the future, I'd really like to see a big increase in capacity, 65k+ that would allow us to maintain our traditional fanbase without having to constantly increase prices. Affordable ticket pricing can work, it just requires a bit of vision.

Yes, this. And we don't actually have to fill it necesarily. Although it would be great if we could.

My God, that sentence tells you it's all about the money these days.

[pauliewalnuts]

I am also not a structural engineer but what I do know is that train lines don’t just do right angle turns.

Who has mentioned trains turning at right angles?

Well, you were suggesting building a station behind the North Stand - how much land do you think making a train line divert from the current line to that location would require, and how do you think the line would link up back with the existing line?

The problem isn't train stations. There are two of them, one at either end of the ground, there are not many grounds in this country who could say that. The problem is the stations can't handle capacity, and the people providing the trains don't seem to give a flying fuck about providing that capacity in the first place.

Two things, from that - first, if we could get that sorted, yes, we'd be at least partly solving a problem which means the transport situation right now for 40k is absolutely chronic. But is that going to be enough to handle 50k? or 60k?

And even then, if were were to be able to solve that, that's only a part of the problem, there's then the challenge that most people come by road, not rail.

Again here, you could look at it and say, the ground is a stone's throw from the centre of the national motorway network, there are plenty of buses from the city centre, there are industrial units that open up for parking on match day - yet, given all that already being in place, it is still an absolute nightmare getting to and from the ground by road.

So there's all that, but then we're still stuck with a hemmed in ground on a small plot, which is in parts horribly outdated and in need of at the very least half of it being rebuilt, because it's also a lopsided plot.

If you are Heck, and you've got to deliver long term massive improvement in commercial revenues, and you've got all these infrastructure problems you have to solve, and even then, if you can get them all solved, you've still got the problem that the facilities in half your stadium are crap, you've got glassed-in, indoor executive boxes in half the ground (something that really went out in the 80s, and that are never going to sell for big money), what do you do then?

It's problem after problem. I don't like Heck, I don't trust him, but although I was annoyed when he binned the North Stand project, there's another way of looking at that, too, which is that once the first spade goes in the ground on that, you're committing us to having to fix all the above problems on the current location.

[PeterWithesShin]

If our owners are as serious as Mr Wagner is then they'll bin off the trains and their lack of help, and just build a monorail to VP.

[Chris Harte]

I am also not a structural engineer but what I do know is that train lines don’t just do right angle turns.

Who has mentioned trains turning at right angles?

Well, you were suggesting building a station behind the North Stand - how much land do you think making a train line divert from the current line to that location would require, and how do you think the line would link up back with the existing line?

The problem isn't train stations. There are two of them, one at either end of the ground, there are not many grounds in this country who could say that. The problem is the stations can't handle capacity, and the people providing the trains don't seem to give a flying fuck about providing that capacity in the first place.

Two things, from that - first, if we could get that sorted, yes, we'd be at least partly solving a problem which means the transport situation right now for 40k is absolutely chronic. But is that going to be enough to handle 50k? or 60k?

And even then, if were were to be able to solve that, that's only a part of the problem, there's then the challenge that most people come by road, not rail.

Again here, you could look at it and say, the ground is a stone's throw from the centre of the national motorway network, there are plenty of buses from the city centre, there are industrial units that open up for parking on match day - yet, given all that already being in place, it is still an absolute nightmare getting to and from the ground by road.

So there's all that, but then we're still stuck with a hemmed in ground on a small plot, which is in parts horribly outdated and in need of at the very least half of it being rebuilt, because it's also a lopsided plot.

If you are Heck, and you've got to deliver long term massive improvement in commercial revenues, and you've got all these infrastructure problems you have to solve, and even then, if you can get them all solved, you've still got the problem that the facilities in half your stadium are crap, you've got glassed-in, indoor executive boxes in half the ground (something that really went out in the 80s, and that are never going to sell for big money), what do you do then?

It's problem after problem. I don't like Heck, I don't trust him, but although I was annoyed when he binned the North Stand project, there's another way of looking at that, too, which is that once the first spade goes in the ground on that, you're committing us to having to fix all the above problems on the current location.

I didn't mention behind the North Stand, just on the site. For your benefit, I'll draw you a couple of pictures. The first is how a line could theoretically run once the existing VP is gone. The second is an existing curved line running under the expressway to illustrate that rails can curve, not turn at right angles.





Meanwhile, your penultimate paragraph supports a new build. I'm saying why not in Aston? Very close to what we call home. Rather than on a hypothetical site in the city centre that just doesn't exist and, in common with a lot of the inner city, suffers with traffic problems.

[Beard82]

If you think a new city centre brand new build will recapture of the magic of say the old Trinity I would brace yourself to be disappointed as it's much more likely it would be indistinguishable from all the other boring bowls.

It really doesn't have to be. See Paul_e's post a few months back with a quick AI red brick frontage example of what can be done.

Wherever we end up playing in the future, I'd really like to see a big increase in capacity, 65k+ that would allow us to maintain our traditional fanbase without having to constantly increase prices. Affordable ticket pricing can work, it just requires a bit of vision.

It doesn't have to be - but I am convinced any stadium will be completely practical but characterless.  It might have some neat features like the "wall" of whatever the fuck it's called at the Tottenham Stadium. 

[dicedlam]

I think a question that would need asking is how would the local residents feel if we were to build a new stadium on the present site?
Personally, I think the majority would be against it rather than for it.

For me, like Ads said, the whole place is a bit like Triggers broom.

Present day Villa Park is holding us back. Its time to move on.

[Beard82]

If you think a new city centre brand new build will recapture of the magic of say the old Trinity I would brace yourself to be disappointed as it's much more likely it would be indistinguishable from all the other boring bowls.

It really doesn't have to be. See Paul_e's post a few months back with a quick AI red brick frontage example of what can be done.

Wherever we end up playing in the future, I'd really like to see a big increase in capacity, 65k+ that would allow us to maintain our traditional fanbase without having to constantly increase prices. Affordable ticket pricing can work, it just requires a bit of vision.

It doesn't have to be - but I am convinced any stadium will be completely practical but characterless.  It might have some neat features like the "wall" of whatever the fuck it's called at the Tottenham Stadium.

The thing is - ultimately - there are so many new stadiums - there is nothing interesting you can do - otherwise the others would have.   its the reality of building something new - it will be cool, then look a bit dated, then maybe become "ok" or "a bit of an eyesore". 

[Beard82]

I think a question that would need asking is how would the local residents feel if we were to build a new stadium on the present site?
Personally, I think the majority would be against it rather than for it.

For me, like Ads said, the whole place is a bit like Triggers broom.

Present day Villa Park is holding us back. Its time to move on.

That a completely fair comment. 

The only thing I would say is, what's it holding us back from? FFP aside which is set to be changed - and is likely to always be structured at maintaining the status.

[Risso]

It doesn't have to be - but I am convinced any stadium will be completely practical but characterless.  It might have some neat features like the "wall" of whatever the fuck it's called at the Tottenham Stadium. 

Which bit of the current ground is full of character? The Holte End and the steps look the part, but they're not even 30 years old. The Doug Ellis has no character at all, the North Stand is a 60s concrete eyesore, and the Trinity is a nice stand but could be any generic new stand anywhere. Altogether we like it and call it home, but there's nothing special in there that couldn't be recreated anywhere else.

[Beard82]

It doesn't have to be - but I am convinced any stadium will be completely practical but characterless.  It might have some neat features like the "wall" of whatever the fuck it's called at the Tottenham Stadium. 

Which bit of the current ground is full of character? The Holte End and the steps look the part, but they're not even 30 years old. The Doug Ellis has no character at all, the North Stand is a 60s concrete eyesore, and the Trinity is a nice stand but could be any generic new stand anywhere. Altogether we like it and call it home, but there's nothing special in there that couldn't be recreated anywhere else.

That's a fair question - I would say the fact it's is on the same site, the fact it is 4 separate stands and doesn't look like anyone else's.  You also get so many people that arent Villa fans say what a special place it is.    "Altogether we like it and call it home" - to me that's enough of a reason to stay.   The Doug Ellis has no character - but it does have a fantastic view. 

[algy]

What strikes me is that for all of the complaints that the Holte End facade is "new", it's 30 years old. In football ground terms, whilst obviously not ancient, it is fairly old, and in about 20 years time will be older than most of the supporters in the ground.

The other thing with the "Trigger's broom" comments is that the site itself has been in continual use by us since 1897. It's like saying that the racecourse isn't the world's oldest international stadium because there's different stands then there was when it was built in 1807. It's bollocks, of course it's that old.

Likewise regardless of which stands are there - and I hope we'd keep the current Holte End - it'll still be Villa Park. The Holte End will still be the same bit of ground that my dad stood on before I was born. The Trinity Road stand will still be the same stand that I sat with my granddad in even if there's no wooden boards to stamp my feet on any more. The North Stand will still be where I had my first season ticket, and where I saw us beat Inter Milan, Tranmere, and Athletic Bilbao. The buildings might change but the essence of each stand remains the same. That disappears as soon as you not a new ground regardless of whether it's 200 meters or 200 miles away from Villa Park.

If we're going to spend a billion quid on a stadium anyway let's stay where we are, make the people living in the nearby houses an offer they'd be mad to refuse. Fuck it, give them a million quid per house. It'll be cheaper than buying up a whole new site.

[Villan82]

Well said Algy. For context, were people in the 1950s saying 'that bloody Trinity Road facade is only there 30 years and is a cheap imitation of Aston Hall'?

[kippaxvilla2]

I’m really struggling to think of anywhere in the city that’s suitable for us to build a new ground on.  The Alex? Maybe?

[N'ZMAV]

Who knows Heck may of even been intouch regards the wheels site.

nothing surprises me any more