Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on March 02, 2024, 10:34:03 PM
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Pretty poor all round for me.
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Someone like Dave Shelley will probably know more but it has always felt to me the refs that make it to the top levels are the ones that do what they are told and don't use any intelligence to interpret what they see.
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I wonder if there is going to more of this from clubs :
Nottingham Forest appointed Mark Clattenburg as a referee analyst; the 48-year-old will be available for advice should Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo want to consult him on specific issues.
What do people make of that? And if Villa had a refereeing analyst?
Are they trying to gain some sort of advantage. If a ref analyst is on their side, he may be friendly with officials pre-match, or conversely, the actual official for a match may make a point to get one over the analyst.
In this case they have an actual representative who knows the law of the game to plead their case.
Referees' analyst Mark Clattenburg to argue Nottingham Forest's case to PGMOL after being left shocked by Paul Tierney's decision to allow Darwin Nunez's late winner for Liverpool to stand
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I see Tierney has been suspended from reffing this weekend. I assume this is down to the blunder he made over a single issue at the City Ground.
Meanwhile, Oliver is presumably free to resume his job after the serial shit-show that was his performance last Saturday evening.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
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I see Tierney has been suspended from reffing this weekend. I assume this is down to the blunder he made over a single issue at the City Ground.
Meanwhile, Oliver is presumably free to resume his job after the serial shit-show that was his performance last Saturday evening.
Tierney literally didn’t apply the rules correctly. Oliver made subjective decisions we didn’t agree with. Big difference.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
That's done to protect the officials and nothing else, having a week off doesn't improve their skill set but takes the heat out of a situation.
Another awful by product of VAR is the sudden expectation that things would improve when anyone could see it would only pile more pressure on Refs when subjective decisions come up. The ref made a mistake on Saturday but when St Jurgen is stood on the touchline, venerated at every turn, anyone would be nervous about making decisions wouldn't they? ****** like Klopp and Arteta, Wenger and Colin Wanker back in the day are bullies and get away with it all the time, with the full backing of the media amplifying their comments.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
That's done to protect the officials and nothing else, having a week off doesn't improve their skill set but takes the heat out of a situation.
Another awful by product of VAR is the sudden expectation that things would improve when anyone could see it would only pile more pressure on Refs when subjective decisions come up. The ref made a mistake on Saturday but when St Jurgen is stood on the touchline, venerated at every turn, anyone would be nervous about making decisions wouldn't they? ****** like Klopp and Arteta, Wenger and Colin Wanker back in the day are bullies and get away with it all the time, with the full backing of the media amplifying their comments.
And it was the same referee Klopp very publicly accused of “having a problem” with Liverpool last season.
On Klopp how he escaped punishment (or even widespread condemnation) for squaring up to the fourth official last year escapes me. Mourinho should have been banned for a period after confronting Anthony Taylor after the Europa league final too. Although H+V favourite Troy Deeney only got a four match ban for saying to a fourth official : "If you weren't a referee, I would punch your f***ing head in."
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I think the standard of refereeing isn't close to being as good as it should be, but also think that there's an exaggeration as to how bad it is. It would be interesting to see a detailed statistical analysis of refereeing decisions to get the full picture.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
And he hasn't even been stood down completely, he's been put on VAR duty. It's just a waste of time.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
And he hasn't even been stood down completely, he's been put on VAR duty. It's just a waste of time.
Yep. "You've made a calamitous decision that could affect both the title race and the relegation battle. Here, have a sit down and check what the other refs are doing at a VAR monitor."
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Someone like Dave Shelley will probably know more but it has always felt to me the refs that make it to the top levels are the ones that do what they are told and don't use any intelligence to interpret what they see.
Once a referee makes it to the top, my opinion is that most of them are running scared and afraid to have the courage of their own convictions. VAR has a lot to answer for in that respect which we see regularly. Also, look at the ages of the referees today, they are a lot younger than they used to be which, is no bad thing. Go back a bit and they were nearly always in their forties when they got to the top plus they were nearly all in employment of one sort of another, now it's a career. I could go on forever about this but I've got to take the missus for an eye test which is somewhat appropriate seeing as how we're discussing referees.
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It's got worse since it became a 'career', they've got everything to lose if they upset the wrong people.
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There's so much scrutiny now, that you can tell the officials are relying on VAR to dig them out of a hole. The problem is that VAR are their mates and won't embarrass them.
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It's been poor this season.
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The standard is awful and the problem now is that it is so awful its difficult to believe there isn't some level of corruption involved.
The PGMOL set up is a racket where they mark their own homework.
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The standard is awful and the problem now is that it is so awful its difficult to believe there isn't some level of corruption involved.
The PGMOL set up is a racket where they mark their own homework.
Suspect Michael Oliver gave himself 10/10 after Saturday's match?
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I usually hate blaming refs primarily because it is a thankless task and players and coaching staff do themselves no favours.
That said Oliver was incredibly inept on Saturday - watching objectively it looked somewhat crooked.
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The standard is awful and the problem now is that it is so awful its difficult to believe there isn't some level of corruption involved.
The PGMOL set up is a racket where they mark their own homework.
I wouldn't say awful. Its not as good as it should be by any means but until we get a detailed statistical analysis it's difficult to say definitively
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Was he scheduled for a match this weekend and they removed him, or is it just an assumption he was removed, because refs don't ref every weekend.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
I'd go one step further and say the way they apply the laws of the game differs in the same match, you can't call a foul and a card against a player from one team and then ignore the same infringement by a player of the opposite team - this is what I witnessed against Luton, mostly when Ollie was being manhandled all over the place.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
I'd go one step further and say the way they apply the laws of the game differs in the same match, you can't call a foul and a card against a player from one team and then ignore the same infringement by a player of the opposite team - this is what I witnessed against Luton, mostly when Ollie was being manhandled all over the place.
They are very inconsistent. People around me at the Villa are confused about the laws of the game now. One minute they’re booking people for taking too long over a throw in or standing in front of a free kick, the next they aren’t.
The handball law is all over the place and it depends on which way the wind is blowing if they award a penalty. The worst one is the flag going up late. I’ve noticed that sometimes it doesn’t go up late and they flag straight away so it’s just very confusing.
Then you’ve got VAR on top of that just to add to the fun.
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Yep, consistency is key, whether you like a rule or not if it's applied fairly you get used to it but when the same incident can be treated completely differently across games or even within a game it's impossible for fans, coahces and players to know what to expect.
On top of that I think the game has a problem with the amount of yellow cards that are given. They are so frequent and often so soft that they become meaningless and teams stacking up 3-4 per game is fairly normal.
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There's so much scrutiny now, that you can tell the officials are relying on VAR to dig them out of a hole. The problem is that VAR are their mates and won't embarrass them.
Well they did the lino at Luton on Saturday - thank fuck
As for general referering - there is without doubt unconscious bias at play and it is not new. In the days when Liv 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' won everything they did it with an alarming number of penalties, Kop end when they needed them. Then of course the redfacedcnut during the 90's encouraging his spit laden yobs to get into refs faces culminating in Jose causing a possible criminal attack in an airport.
I find grovelling apologies after a monumental cock up embarrassing and should only be offered with the game to be replayed - a public "sorry" does not recover 3pts or next round of a cup
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The worst one is the flag going up late. I’ve noticed that sometimes it doesn’t go up late and they flag straight away so it’s just very confusing.
If that rule was taken away then Watkins would of stopped playing, as flag went up immediately, and buried as he did.
The issue was as always - i could see from my TV and at an angle and he was clearly onside so why it took that long to check i just dont know
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I usually hate blaming refs primarily because it is a thankless task and players and coaching staff do themselves no favours.
That said Oliver was incredibly inept on Saturday - watching objectively it looked somewhat crooked.
How a team like Luton, who amassed 45% of the possession, could accrue 19 fouls against over 90 minutes is befuddling. That said, of course some were fouls.. but the standard of what Oliver was calling against Villa wasn't being applied to Luton. We couldn't even get him to put his whistle to his mouth to even consider the foul. It was strange, and I truly believe he was out there to make the Saturday night match interesting.
The refereeing has been poor, borderline very poor this season. A lot of new faces in important positions and some just don't seem up for it. Surprisingly, the one's who have been doing it for years and have become household names, seem to be regressing. Whether its due to rule interpretations they've been instructed to enforce or the safety net a VAR, it's unacceptable and its damaging the game.
I would like to see something like the Two-Minute Report that the NBA uses, to discuss and observe decisions made in important moments. I have no qualms when referees are told to step back and are given a week off, or put behind the VAR screen for a weekend to seemingly reprimand them. We can't have PGMOL "protecting their own" because their interests aren't universal.. while seeking a better/improved game should be everyone's. We don't need defense attorneys, we need an unbiased observation to improve all things rule enforcement. They were so worried about time wasting in the summer and applying those rules early on this season, that they lost focus on the larger job at hand.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
I'd go one step further and say the way they apply the laws of the game differs in the same match, you can't call a foul and a card against a player from one team and then ignore the same infringement by a player of the opposite team - this is what I witnessed against Luton, mostly when Ollie was being manhandled all over the place.
I said this on the post match thread but got shot down. Ollie was battered by them with Mengi and Burke taking it in turns to clatter into the back of him. And Chong must think he's still at OT where you win fouls every time you throw yourself to the ground and have a tantrum. Oliver fell for it time after time. There were some truly awful decisions and the one for their second goal was a joke. He had hold of Konsas arm the whole time then won the foul by flinging his arms around. We won and I'm over it but refereeing like that has no place in elite football. Totally inept.
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The worst one is the flag going up late. I’ve noticed that sometimes it doesn’t go up late and they flag straight away so it’s just very confusing.
If that rule was taken away then Watkins would of stopped playing, as flag went up immediately, and buried as he did.
The issue was as always - i could see from my TV and at an angle and he was clearly onside so why it took that long to check i just dont know
The late flag is annoying when it is so obvious. Also we have incurred injuries as a result of playing on.
Then there are times where the flag doesn't go up at all when it should and then the ball goes out for a corner.
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Then there are times where the flag doesn't go up at all when it should and then the ball goes out for a corner.
That is the linesman thinking the play isn't offside*. If he felt it was, he would then flag instead of giving the corner.
*(Or as they are in contact with the ref during play, the linesman stated potential offside for number 10, the ref could always state number 10 didn't move for the ball so he doesn't think it was offside and over rule him).
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All season Ollie has had defenders going through the back of him with impunity away from Villa Park, compare and contrast with Lord Saint Harry formerly of Tottinghams and England and how breathing the same air as him is a cautionable offence.
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Some historic news the Official today in Palace V Man Utd is going to wear a head camera and will be the introduction of RefCam
Give us plenty of insight and is a taster of what's to come in the Premier League with RefCam.
Standard of Refereeing insight !
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Maybe they could focus on getting more decisions right before they start playing with their shiny new toys?
Tw*ts!
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However poor we think the refereeing is in the Prem the standard of referee in the Conference League is a whole new level of sh!t
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I am ref when our U9 team play in training, and I'm shit. I even forget the bloody score at times.
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Some historic news the Official today in Palace V Man Utd is going to wear a head camera and will be the introduction of RefCam
Give us plenty of insight and is a taster of what's to come in the Premier League with RefCam.
Standard of Refereeing insight !
I see Ratboy was "injured". Coincidence?
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
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VAR isn’t the problem…it’s the standard of the officials whether they are on the pitch or watching on a screen from multiple angles.
There are many examples, but I’ll use one from this weekend just gone…
Penalty awarded to Arsenal against Bournemouth. Goalkeeper comes out to challenge Havertz, misses the ball but also clearly has no intention of playing the man…Harvertz steps over the keeper with his right leg but intentionally drags his left leg in to the keepers leg (which is flat on the pitch) whilst already in the process of going down. You could not get a clearer example of simulation (ie cheating) yet between both the on field referee and VAR official, they decided it was a penalty.
There are lots of things wrong with the game we love but when incorrect decisions or inconsistent decisions are made game to game, then you have to question what the actual fuck is going on.
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KRS that is exactly how I saw it .Thought VAR would say no penalty. Can't imagine why I thought they would get it right.
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
I said something similar yesterday but I can't remember the refs being so poor. I've never been one to hammer refs but these last two, three seasons they've been a disgrace. Taylor, Attwell and Michael fuckin' Oliver are the worst I've seen yet all three have FIFA badges.
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I thought the first one Man City got at the weekend was ridiculous.
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Nice to see we have a ref previously accused of match fixing on Thursday. Wonderful.
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
I would argue that 6-7 games a week live on TV with 20 cameras around the ground and instant replays of all instances has been the cause of the questioning of standards of refereeing. VAR was just the natural progression of that. Before then you were lucky to see one game live a week and no way could you watch anything else live but had to rely on a 3 minutes of highlights (if that) unless you were the featured Saturday game. You have also got the game being played at a considerably faster pace and a lot more simulation and gamesmanship from the players. People remember Franny Lee diving because it was rare at the time.
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
I would argue that 6-7 games a week live on TV with 20 cameras around the ground and instant replays of all instances has been the cause of the questioning of standards of refereeing. VAR was just the natural progression of that. Before then you were lucky to see one game live a week and no way could you watch anything else live but had to rely on a 3 minutes of highlights (if that) unless you were the featured Saturday game. You have also got the game being played at a considerably faster pace and a lot more simulation and gamesmanship from the players. People remember Franny Lee diving because it was rare at the time.
It wasn’t, he did it every week😊
I also remember him pushing a cross in with his hand to score and then holding his face, implying the ball had gone in off his bugle. I think he was spotted by the ref.
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VAR isn’t the problem…it’s the standard of the officials whether they are on the pitch or watching on a screen from multiple angles.
There are many examples, but I’ll use one from this weekend just gone…
Penalty awarded to Arsenal against Bournemouth. Goalkeeper comes out to challenge Havertz, misses the ball but also clearly has no intention of playing the man…Harvertz steps over the keeper with his right leg but intentionally drags his left leg in to the keepers leg (which is flat on the pitch) whilst already in the process of going down. You could not get a clearer example of simulation (ie cheating) yet between both the on field referee and VAR official, they decided it was a penalty.
There are lots of things wrong with the game we love but when incorrect decisions or inconsistent decisions are made game to game, then you have to question what the actual fuck is going on.
Abysmal from the on field and abysmal by var. For Stockley Park to compound the ref's nonsensical decision stinks massively. Totally incompetent or corrupt? Those are the only viable conclusions from that shit show.
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The problem now is that they have lost all credibility and it is no wonder when you see some horror decisions that people start to believe that these are not just mistakes, particularly when VAR either endorses the error or fails to correct it.
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I thought the first one Man City got at the weekend was ridiculous.
Was that the first penalty? The ref wasn’t going to give it until a Man City player shouted at him. It was two players going for the ball and the attacker still got his shot off. VAR did not intervene.
Then in the same game the ref waved play on when Harland was taken out from the back when he was clean through. The ref was then corrected by VAR.
The ref got both wrong, but what I don’t get, is VAR corrected him on one decision and not the the other.
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Yes the first penalty and yep, the Man City player did manage to get a shot in. Compare that to the third one Forest didn't get when Ashley Young took their player out from behind. It's all a bit farcical.
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The issue is not “refs are shit”. The issue is that a) it is a very hard game to ref, and increasingly hard (faster and more cheating/simulation); b) every decision is scrutinised with replays from many angles so errors and perceived injustices are amplified; and c) the set up of VAR is ambiguous and flawed (there is not an objective truth on many or even most decisions, so the concept of a tv replay to get it right simply doesn’t work for most incidents - it just provides another opinion).
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Szymon Marciniak doing Real v Bayern and Daniele Orsato who officated the Champions League semi yesterday referee are top quality in my book.
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The issue is not “refs are shit”. The issue is that a) it is a very hard game to ref, and increasingly hard (faster and more cheating/simulation); b) every decision is scrutinised with replays from many angles so errors and perceived injustices are amplified; and c) the set up of VAR is ambiguous and flawed (there is not an objective truth on many or even most decisions, so the concept of a tv replay to get it right simply doesn’t work for most incidents - it just provides another opinion).
I think it's more that VAR has given the on-field ref a get-out-of-jail card: the ref can (as happened in our recent Chelsea game) make a non-decision on the pitch knowing that VAR will provide a decision.
Whereas elsewhere, it seems that refs see VAR as a genuine complementary and additional tool that can be deployed in extremis.
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VAR seems to be caught between 'not re-reffing the game' and the old pals' act between refs and the VAR official.
Presumably, the former was why we didn't get that early penalty at Brighton.
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I think that we will get a new standard of referee that can interact with VAR. Also, there will be better communication with the fans on crucial decisions.
Look to the NFL. When I lived in the U.S. I used to say on lots of issues, we'll been doing this sooner or later. Usually, it turned out to be sooner. Doesn't necessarily mean better.
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They rushed the use of VAR and it has caused more Problems than it has solved.
The big issue as I have said many times is there PGMOL, it’s a disgrace that you have a for profit unregulated business officiating football.
There is incompetence, protectionism and a wiff of corruption.
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Yep.
Should have introduced it for line decisions only, monitor how that went and possibly add to it for other things, after consulting coaches and players. Maybe even fans!!
Doesn't help when there appears to be a new handball law every season which VAR has to adjudicate on.
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Ref watch 24/25
Match officials’ club allegiances are to be made public this season - follows the furore over Nottm Forest questioning the integrity of VAR Stuart Attwell. Refs’ chief Howard Webb revealed the move after being questioned by @TimesSport.
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Match 1 season 24/25 Ref Watch
Hartlepool fan Tony Harrington ref today v West Ham
Fourth official: Andrew Kitchen.
VAR: John Brooks. (Doesn't take charge of Leicester Matches )
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How about the fucking twat that gave a penalty to West Ham today?
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Dreadful decision made worse by the fact VAR cleared it too, likely with the remit that they want fewer decisions overturned.
I thought there was probably just as much in the Torres incident which came later, which was also in no way, shape or form a penalty (and rightly was waved off quickly).
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Dog-shit decision.
Made even worse, not only by the fact that VAR bottled saying it was a dog-shit decision, but then more salt rubbed into the wound by these absolute vacuums of any sign of character who just regurgitate the garbage they are told to say making the claim that VAR were right not to overrule the dog-shit decision because we don't want VAR to re-ref games.
Then why the fuck is it being asked to check it in the first place if this one wasn't "clear & obvious" bullshit?!?
Fuck them all...
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We don’t want to re-referee games, 🤔. Scrap it entirely then!
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Bin Var if they’re not going to overturn decisions like that. It’s pointless otherwise
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I thought the referee did ok today. VAR let him down though.
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It doesn't work.
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Guarantee they overturn ones like that later this season. Probably at the usual places.
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So long as they stick to the rule of "not overturning it when it isn't clear and obvious", and don't bottle it as soon as Bruno Fernandes flutters his eyelashes at them, I'm happy enough. Thought the referee was mostly alright otherwise, had a ten minute spell where West Ham seemed to be getting away with a bit, but we will have far worse this season.
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What can you do when you have the main numpty thinking that was a penalty in the first place and the Stockley Park numpty backing him up by saying that Cash wasn't trying to win the ball when he, er, won the ball.
Let AI ref games if these chimps can't. Even with the benefit of multiple camera angles and more tech than NASA.
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Dreadful decision…if that was a pen then kudus kicking through McGinn a few minutes earlier was a pen too.
Like the fact they appear to be letting a few more tackles go though
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Dreadful decision…if that was a pen then kudus kicking through McGinn a few minutes earlier was a pen too.
Like the fact they appear to be letting a few more tackles go though
Totally agree about the poor decisions on pens . How was Ginny not given that!
Cashy unlucky but he’s prone to poor defending and giving away pens
Not so sure on letting tackles go as can be confusing , inconsistent and lead to injury will see how this Harrington officiates next week and see how consistent he is.
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Ref got it wrong. Human error. VAR clearly saw it was wrong and did nothing about it. What is the point?
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Ref got it wrong. Human error. VAR clearly saw it was wrong and did nothing about it. What is the point?
Agree, if VAR is not there to correct ref errors then it has no purpose.
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Redknapp was tying himself in knots trying to defend the decision. His argument was that effectively you won't see VAR overturning many decisions this season. So much for judging each decision on its merits.
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Ref Watch
Crystal Palace midfielder Eberechi Eze said the referee told him he made an error in match v Brentford!
Replays showed there was no real offence but VAR Peter Bankes was unable to intervene as the whistle was blown before the ball hit the net!
Referee Sam Barrott, first Premier League game, first season as a Premier League referee and he's seen a foul and blown the whistle. And blown the whistle before the ball goes into the net
Seems this official is not up to standard at all.
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Genuine question Footy, have you never done something and the instant you did it you realised you had made a huge mistake? I know I have.
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Ref Watch
Crystal Palace midfielder Eberechi Eze said the referee told him he made an error in match v Brentford!
Replays showed there was no real offence but VAR Peter Bankes was unable to intervene as the whistle was blown before the ball hit the net!
Referee Sam Barrott, first Premier League game, first season as a Premier League referee and he's seen a foul and blown the whistle. And blown the whistle before the ball goes into the net
Seems this official is not up to standard at all.
Similar to the Grealish incident a few years ago at Palace. The ref clearly didn’t like Grealish. Grealish got fouled, went over and the ref blew his whistle as the ball fell to Lansbury who tucked the chance and netted. The ref blew up for Grealish diving. It was realised that he’d got the decision wrong but because he blew the whistle had to stick with his decision.
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Genuine question Footy, have you never done something and the instant you did it you realised you had made a huge mistake? I know I have.
Oh well in that respect and context ok I understand however as he’s new and everything isn’t that an indication he may not be ready to officiate .
DS I always respect your views and I think you’re very knowledgeable on officials so that’s great point to make regards human error as it were
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Dermot Gallagher Sky sports Ref Watch
INCIDENT: Referee Tony Harrington awarded West Ham a penalty for a challenge from Matty Cash on Tomas Soucek in the box, despite the Aston Villa defender putting a toe on the ball.
DERMOT SAYS: Cash touched the ball, there's no doubt about that. Does touching the ball negate a foul? No.
I do know a lot of people think this isn't a foul. That's why you have to stick with the referee's call because it's so tight.
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So no assessment on whether Cash was fouled attempting to play the ball, would he have been able to have got the second touch if Soucek hadn’t leant in and tangled with him?
The ballshit stats they come up with on how many VAR decisions that get right and wrong at the end of the season are massively skewed by things like this.
They should exclude all of these new ‘referees calls’ unless they decide to ditch it after it goes against Man U or Liverpool.
Be interesting to see what the stats look like with all the subjective ones taken out from last season.
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the whole system is broken because of incompetence in both on and off the field decisions.
Now we have VAR not interviening as not to undermine the referee. However, the referees haven't had to be sure of their decisions for the past 4 years or so because they had what should have been a fail safe.
There's so much confusion and lack of confidence now.
I watched a EFL game on the weekend and it took out all the uncertaincy in the game - decisions were made there and then and the game just got on with.
it made much more sense.
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If VAR are not getting involved in decisions made by the Ref, is VAR only being used for offsides, and handball for penalties?
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I'm no Cash fan but that decision was a disgrace. I honestly can't take football serious anymore. The only saving grace is we'll give away a blatant penalty over the season and because the standard is so poor that will go our way which also is wrong.
Udogie yesterday blatantly pulls back an attacking Leicester player in a good position and no card. None of it makes any sense!
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The penalty decision, once VAR had seen all 3 angles with the one angle clearly showing Cash getting a toe to the ball they should have just said to the ref’ have a look yourself on the monitor. The issue is then resolved. All this guff about it not being a telling touch or it can still be a foul is nonsense. I’d be much happier if they put their hands up and confessed that they got it wrong.
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If VAR are not getting involved in decisions made by the Ref, is VAR only being used for offsides, and handball for penalties?
No because it was involved to overturn the Everton pen which wasn't a penalty. I honestly think they haven't actually changed much apart from they won't spend too much time looking to see if the decision is an obvious error, which they didn't used to anyway unless the "right" teams were involved.
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Last minute versus Brighton a few seasons Go and Solly March does exactly you the same yet the penalty decision was overturned. When did the laws on the game change?
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What law has been changed? The VAR intervention?
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It was a terrible decision. A player CAN foul another player despite winning the ball, but you rarely see it, and when you do it's usually a two footed horror challenge where one foot happens to make contact with the ball and the other crunches into the opponent's leg. All that happened with Cash is that he won the ball cleanly, then there was a tangle of legs. Absolutely no foul from Cash whatsoever.
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Ref Watch Aston Villa v Arsenal Match 2 Season 24/25
Michael Oliver selected as the referee. Peter Bankes on VAR duty.
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If 'referee's call' survives the first weeks of the season, we could see more attempted intimidation of refs.
If there's no correction coming from VAR for the key decisions then bullying the ref into getting what you want might become the focus for players/coaches.
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I’m pretty sure I saw Villa supporter Andre Mariner in the seats alongside Villa officials . I wonder if he has an advisor role . He had wired headphones in during the match at West Ham.
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Ref Watch v Leicester
https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13208437/ref-watch-why-referee-had-to-disallow-leicester-citys-goal-against-aston-villa
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Ref Watch v Leicester
https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13208437/ref-watch-why-referee-had-to-disallow-leicester-citys-goal-against-aston-villa
Ridiculous that anyone feels aggrieved by that decision.
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Ref Watch v Leicester
https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13208437/ref-watch-why-referee-had-to-disallow-leicester-citys-goal-against-aston-villa
Ridiculous that anyone feels aggrieved by that decision.
I can't understand why it's even a talking point, it's so obvious that they gained a huge advantage.
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And, looking at it again, if the ref hadn't blown the whistle, Torres would probably have intercepted it in any event.
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And, looking at it again, if the ref hadn't blown the whistle, Torres would probably have intercepted it in any event.
Yep, I'm not sure the dive from Martinez was him really trying to save it either, seemed a bit more performative than anything.
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Referee applies rules correctly shocker. I mean, given who the ref is it actually is a bit of a shocker I suppose, but still.
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I'm surprised they didn't cover the final pen decision when Cootes appeared to be giving it, and then the offside flag. Afterall that is the one they are being charged for but not one highlights package covered it.
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Was Coote giving it or confirming the offside?
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Was Coote giving it or confirming the offside?
No idea. Text commentary on Sky and on here seemed to indicate Coote initially looked to be pointing at the spot and then changed to the offside call. But as I mentioned, that seemed to be the decision that Leicester have been charged over so thought Ref Spot would cover it.
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I'm surprised they didn't cover the final pen decision when Cootes appeared to be giving it, and then the offside flag. Afterall that is the one they are being charged for but not one highlights package covered it.
Aston Villa v Everton sees referee: Craig Pawson with David Coote on VAR duty.
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BSC Young Boys- Aston Villa FC
Referee: Georgi Kabakov Bulgaria
Video Assistant Referee: Willy Delajod France
38 Year old ref Kabakov has shown 1622 yellow cards and 28 red cards in 346 fixtures and gives an average of 4.69 yellow cards per game.
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Interesting Daily Telegraph article by former Ref Keith Hackett
Bookings are at an all-time high – Howard Webb must explain his approach
Chelsea and Bournemouth broke the record for the most yellow cards recorded in a single Premier League match on Saturday
"We are operating at the elite level of the game, and I expect in pre-season Howard Webb detailed what was expected in terms of dealing with time wasting and dissent. Yet as I watched Anthony Taylor handing out yellow cards like confetti, it was clear that Premier League refereeing has become reactive rather than proactive.
There were 65 yellow cards this weekend, a new record, beating the previous worst total of 57. There were nine shown for dissent, nine for time wasting and two for not retreating.
Refereeing should have a step-managed approach. If a player shows dissent or wastes time, you should firstly have a quiet word with them. Referees can run alongside a player out of the public eye and firmly tell them you will not accept their behaviour. Have a word with the captain too.
Step two should be a public rebuke. Give him a warning that you are not standing for any more. Again you can bring the captain across and that you want improvement from their team.
The Premier League undervalues yellow cards. You can see that from the fact you need five of them to get a ban, while elsewhere in Europe it is three. So then we see Taylor flashing yellows without any communication, with no body language that tells you he is annoyed; no approach to the captain to make it clear that ‘I’ll caution you if this persists.’
My point is that a lot of this can be avoided with proactive management of the players. Ultimately Webb has to talk to managers. On my watch PGMOL would have regular meetings with clubs, players and coaches, to reinforce our approach. That way you would get buy-in.
All I see at the moment is managers shaking their heads as cards are shown. And if this persists, in a few weeks we will see players unable to play because they have collected yellow cards.
It makes me shudder. When I took over at PGMOL, we averaged four to five yellows per game. We acted to get that down to about three. To get 14 in one game, it’s like the referees have lost control.
So what comes now? At the Euros, they acted to reduce dissent by only allowing the captain to speak to the referee. It worked. I cannot believe this approach has not been adopted by the Premier League. And time wasting is a cancer on the game, and something we acted on last year, but that lasted six weeks.
It has been a very bad weekend for the Premier League and PGMOL and they should have an urgent meeting about this tomorrow.
This level of carding is unacceptable. Referees, managers and players need a better relationship so this doesn’t happen again"
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Ref Watch v Wolves
Tim Robinson
Var: Paul Tierney
Awarded a penalty last season against us for Bournemouth
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From seeing highlights, Konsa was definitely fouled in the leadup to the Wolves goal.
I don't think Robinson and certainly ref assistant did well at all in not awardeding a foul, it was a clear pullback on Konsa, and I believe they eventually scored if correct.
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From seeing highlights, Konsa was definitely fouled in the leadup to the Wolves goal.
I don't think Robinson and certainly ref assistant did well at all in not awardeding a foul, it was a clear pullback on Konsa, and I believe they eventually scored if correct.
There wasn't anybody anywhere near Konsa, from either side, at any point during the goal or the build up to it. Wolves win a throw in our left hand side, overhit it, it goes to Torres, who passes it to Emi, who gives it to Carlos, with the end result of a goal. Konsa was miles away from the action at all times. There certainly wasn't a foul on him.
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Interesting Daily Telegraph article by former Ref Keith Hackett
Bookings are at an all-time high – Howard Webb must explain his approach
Chelsea and Bournemouth broke the record for the most yellow cards recorded in a single Premier League match on Saturday
"We are operating at the elite level of the game, and I expect in pre-season Howard Webb detailed what was expected in terms of dealing with time wasting and dissent. Yet as I watched Anthony Taylor handing out yellow cards like confetti, it was clear that Premier League refereeing has become reactive rather than proactive.
There were 65 yellow cards this weekend, a new record, beating the previous worst total of 57. There were nine shown for dissent, nine for time wasting and two for not retreating.
Refereeing should have a step-managed approach. If a player shows dissent or wastes time, you should firstly have a quiet word with them. Referees can run alongside a player out of the public eye and firmly tell them you will not accept their behaviour. Have a word with the captain too.
Step two should be a public rebuke. Give him a warning that you are not standing for any more. Again you can bring the captain across and that you want improvement from their team.
The Premier League undervalues yellow cards. You can see that from the fact you need five of them to get a ban, while elsewhere in Europe it is three. So then we see Taylor flashing yellows without any communication, with no body language that tells you he is annoyed; no approach to the captain to make it clear that ‘I’ll caution you if this persists.’
My point is that a lot of this can be avoided with proactive management of the players. Ultimately Webb has to talk to managers. On my watch PGMOL would have regular meetings with clubs, players and coaches, to reinforce our approach. That way you would get buy-in.
All I see at the moment is managers shaking their heads as cards are shown. And if this persists, in a few weeks we will see players unable to play because they have collected yellow cards.
It makes me shudder. When I took over at PGMOL, we averaged four to five yellows per game. We acted to get that down to about three. To get 14 in one game, it’s like the referees have lost control.
So what comes now? At the Euros, they acted to reduce dissent by only allowing the captain to speak to the referee. It worked. I cannot believe this approach has not been adopted by the Premier League. And time wasting is a cancer on the game, and something we acted on last year, but that lasted six weeks.
It has been a very bad weekend for the Premier League and PGMOL and they should have an urgent meeting about this tomorrow.
This level of carding is unacceptable. Referees, managers and players need a better relationship so this doesn’t happen again"
So why is it unacceptable? The only argument here is that players get banned, but as he notes you need more cards for a ban than elsewhere (and that number could be increased further too). Meanwhile, the players who do get banned don't tend to be the ones playing glorious football.
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Only man to blame for that goal was the ever careless Carlos.
I did think the ref on general let a lot of niggly shit go from them, but their time wasting made Emi look tame.
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From seeing highlights, Konsa was definitely fouled in the leadup to the Wolves goal.
I don't think Robinson and certainly ref assistant did well at all in not awardeding a foul, it was a clear pullback on Konsa, and I believe they eventually scored if correct.
There wasn't anybody anywhere near Konsa, from either side, at any point during the goal or the build up to it. Wolves win a throw in our left hand side, overhit it, it goes to Torres, who passes it to Emi, who gives it to Carlos, with the end result of a goal. Konsa was miles away from the action at all times. There certainly wasn't a foul on him.
My mistake it was motd highlights Saturday the first attack they show in 17 mins when Konsa was high up he was pulled back ref waved play on they go up the other end get a corner and from resulting corner Lemina has free header but straight at Martinez
That's the incident. Quite right not to do with the goal but felt that it was poor officiating to let foul go and Wolves counter up field.
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I've just seen the penalty awarded to Forrrest. Jesus H.
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Has the Wolves number nine managed to make it off the pitch yet? Hard to know what constitutes a time-wasting booking if he didn't get one.
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Surely PGMOL need to explain the Gibbs-White sending off. He was on a yellow card, and then made a challenge. The ref indicated that MGW had won the ball, but then appeared to take advice from VAR and changed his mind and issued a second yellow. I thought VAR weren't allowed to intervene with yellow card decisions, but only a direct red?
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Can you imagine the Arsenal forum's equivalent of this thread. My god that would be good reading.
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The deliberate time wasting is now a problem.
I am struggling to work out how the refs get on top of this. The first thing is allowing medical staff on the field of play and only stopping the game for serious injuries.
Not sure how they deal with the icing around at restarts though.
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Surely PGMOL need to explain the Gibbs-White sending off. He was on a yellow card, and then made a challenge. The ref indicated that MGW had won the ball, but then appeared to take advice from VAR and changed his mind and issued a second yellow. I thought VAR weren't allowed to intervene with yellow card decisions, but only a direct red?
Maybe he got advice from one of his assistants rather than VAR?
It was the right decision.
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The deliberate time wasting is now a problem.
I am struggling to work out how the refs get on top of this. The first thing is allowing medical staff on the field of play and only stopping the game for serious injuries.
Not sure how they deal with the icing around at restarts though.
There is definitely more of a pattern of players going down to take momentum and crowd noise away from teams building up a head of steam.
It’s a real tough one for referees. I thought Oliver did well under very difficult circumstances yesterday.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
VAR can't contribute to consistency because the majority of decisions are subjective and by it's very definition you will get two different opinions. It's hard to fathom why the Newton Heath player wasn't sent off but there you go, both ref and VAR official got it wrong (IMO) which is what makes VAR so infuriating. Instead of one error, it looks like it was made twice.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
it wasn't a 'coming together' he didn't take his foot with the ball, he hit the ball, whilst sliding in and out of control and took the player's leg, with a scissor-like motion that could have ended up with a really serious injury. I think the first contact with the player, after he'd got the ball, was on the achilles.
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A mate asked me to look at the Lisandro Martínez attempted assault against Crystal Palace - yellow card my arse.
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The Martinez one was a poor call, no idea how you can see someone jump in with 2 feet and not give a red, even if there's no contact, it was reckless and dangerous and exactly the sort of thing that could lead to a serious injury.
Gibbs-White is bizarre but is the sort of thing that I think VAR should be able to call on, i just don't see any reason to have VAR and then limit it with a threshold of nothing less than a red card offence can be called up.
The other big one for me was the bookings for Mosquira and Rogers which were both weird. I assume they were for playing after the whistle but that seems ridiculous in a game that had seen so much time-wasting already and then to book them both was strange as well. From a claret specs viewpoint I don't see what Rogers did wrong, their guy played on so he cut in and won the ball. It led to an injury but there was no foul play so, at best, he got booked for doing something about the amount of time-wasting that was going on when the ref was clearly not bothered by it.
The Torres booking was similar as well, got booked for asking the ref why he was letting them get away with kicking the shit out of us.
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Surely PGMOL need to explain the Gibbs-White sending off. He was on a yellow card, and then made a challenge. The ref indicated that MGW had won the ball, but then appeared to take advice from VAR and changed his mind and issued a second yellow. I thought VAR weren't allowed to intervene with yellow card decisions, but only a direct red?
Maybe he got advice from one of his assistants rather than VAR?
It was the right decision.
Sky Sports Ref Watch
INCIDENT: Morgan Gibbs-White was sent off during Nottingham Forest's defeat to Brighton, with the player shown a second yellow card for a tackle on Joao Pedro.
Dermot Gallagher ex ref says: "When the ref says he got the ball, you think it's a good tackle. But the fourth official has the other angle and says it's a yellow. He's there to assist the referee. He's got the view and has passed on the information.
"The fourth official is an integral part of the team but the referee still holds the big say."
Steve Warnock ex villa now pundit says "When I saw that tackle I thought 'What a brilliant challenge'. But in the first half there was a challenge right in front of the dugout and it caused a melee but ref Rob Jones didn't give a foul. And I said what is fourth official Anthony Taylor doing. But on this occasion I think he gets involved incorrectly.
"It's a full-blooded challenge. He takes ball and then man. And Joao Pedro is struggling with injury afterwards. But I thought it was a brilliant tackle."
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A mate asked me to look at the Lisandro Martínez attempted assault against Crystal Palace - yellow card my arse.
Sky Sports Ref Watch :
INCIDENT: Man Utd's Lisandro Martinez was not sent off for a two-footed challenge against Crystal Palace's Daichi Kamada, despite Palace boss Oliver Glasner later saying the United defender could have broken Kamada's leg.
Dermot Gallagher ex ref says "I think that's what saved him from getting a red card - that he didn't make contact with the player. He's given the referee a big decision to make. The fact he has caught the ball rather than the player has saved him
I sent a player off once for a dangerous tackle, who didn't touch him. I said he doesn't have to break his leg for it to be a red card."
Steve Warnock pundit : "It's a coward's tackle. The intent is there. I think he's very lucky."
Sue Smith ex player now pundit :"You never get taught to defend like that. That is endangering an opponent."
For me
I wondered if there was some influence by the Argentine against a dislike to a Japanese.
Regards the tackle Alan Smith at the time said it was madness.
It was disgusting behaviour and with such intent and carelessness should have been sent off.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
it wasn't a 'coming together' he didn't take his foot with the ball, he hit the ball, whilst sliding in and out of control and took the player's leg, with a scissor-like motion that could have ended up with a really serious injury. I think the first contact with the player, after he'd got the ball, was on the achilles.
Totally.
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The other big one for me was the bookings for Mosquira and Rogers which were both weird. I assume they were for playing after the whistle but that seems ridiculous in a game that had seen so much time-wasting already and then to book them both was strange as well. From a claret specs viewpoint I don't see what Rogers did wrong, their guy played on so he cut in and won the ball. It led to an injury but there was no foul play so, at best, he got booked for doing something about the amount of time-wasting that was going on when the ref was clearly not bothered by it...
Mosquira got booked for the foul on Watkins, chopping him down as he broke away from 2 defenders.
Rogers got booked for supposedly following through on Mosquira as he lay on the ground.
The first was nailed-on; I'm guessing the second was an interpretation by the ref that Rogers went in for a bit of retribution. I saw it as Rogers trying to play on before the ref blew.
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For me, I wondered if there was some influence by the Argentine against a dislike to a Japanese.
For goodness sake: that's a pretty out-there / unsubstantiated comment.
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As long as they are being undermined and intimidated at every level of the game from kids football to the World Cup Final it will continue to be a lottery of inconsistency. How many on here would be brave enough to referee sunday league?? - i know i wouldnt. Sky/TNT etc has twenty cameras at every game and frame--by-frame slow motions etc monitoring and analyzing every decision. Fifty thousand people calling me a wanker every week - No thanks.
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The referee’s are generally fine and honest. They have 22 players using every trick in the book to gain an advantage, 22 players cheating at every opportuniy. Not to mention coaching staff, substitutes screaming at them for much of the match, claiming every decision go their way. They make it an impossible job.
And all in front of a 50,000 live audience, many of whom are screaming abuse at the from the first whistle and an armchair audience of millions who have slow motion replays from 20 angles to aid their decision making.
They must be mad to do it if you ask me.
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This league cup official tonight was spectacular.Spectacularly awful.
Our players are being fouled yet ref lets play go on and ignores it.Or where there should be a caution doesn't give a card.There was an incident where Buendia had his shirt pulled back and stopped, and there was no award of a yellow card.
The penalty awarded too was completely wrong, though I won't complain so much on that! But it was unfair.
John Busby was his name.
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That rings a bell.
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He hasn't made anyone happy.
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This league cup official tonight was spectacular.Spectacularly awful.
Our players are being fouled yet ref lets play go on and ignores it.Or where there should be a caution doesn't give a card.There was an incident where Buendia had his shirt pulled back and stopped, and there was no award of a yellow card.
The penalty awarded too was completely wrong, though I won't complain so much on that! But it was unfair.
John Busby was his name.
You should see some of the displays by referees in the lower divisions. Last week a centre forward spent all afternoon picking himself up off the ground where the centre half had despatched him prior to heading the ball away. Ref just turned away and followed the game. On seeing this happen the other teams centre half commenced the same on the other centre forward, Then we had both of them picking themselves up!
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That rings a bell.
I had a Busby teddy when I was a kid, bloody loved that thing.
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We had a money box shaped like Busby next to the phone. It doesn't cost much to keep in touch.
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why is Attwell allowed to ref us on Sunday? I've never understood this.
He's from Nuneaton which historically was a Villa town. Him and his dad were season ticket holders at Cov who hate Villa.
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why is Attwell allowed to ref us on Sunday? I've never understood this.
He's from Nuneaton which historically was a Villa town. Him and his dad were season ticket holders at Cov who hate Villa.
Luton fan according to PGMOL.
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I always love the idea that a ref would potentially put his career on the line due to a team he/she may support.
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why is Attwell allowed to ref us on Sunday? I've never understood this.
He's from Nuneaton which historically was a Villa town. Him and his dad were season ticket holders at Cov who hate Villa.
Luton fan according to PGMOL.
I think that's a joke because he allowed the phantom goal against Watford.
His family are well known in Nuneaton. His dad was Secretary of the Refereeing Association for the local leagues for years.
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
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I always love the idea that a ref would potentially put his career on the line due to a team he/she may support.
Where my Inside Number 9 brethren at?
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
I think it’s a myth that’s been put around by Luton fans.
He was certainly a Coventry season ticket holder
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I don't know who he supports, but I'll be calling him a cheating bastard on Sunday.
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I don't know who he supports, but I'll be calling him a cheating bastard on Sunday.
Indeed. He really is a shit referee, right up there with Michael Oliver and Antony Taylor. I'm trying to remember the last referee who we didn't notice. There are good ones out there but they're so good we forget they were there and who they are.
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I don't know who he supports, but I'll be calling him a cheating bastard on Sunday.
Indeed. He really is a shit referee, right up there with Michael Oliver and Antony Taylor. I'm trying to remember the last referee who we didn't notice. There are good ones out there but they're so good we forget they were there and who they are.
Yes, a ghastly specimen of the genre.
A turd fondler and a fellator of mandrills.
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Ghastly ref.
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
I'm sorry that's a ridiculous theory!
I know Atwell did the infamous Leeds Villa 1&1 sending off El Ghazi disgracefully and not having any handle of the gam.
Villa have won 9 and lost 3 when he's officiating so he's not doing anything to stop us winning matches apart from the Leeds game where he allowed their goal.
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
I'm sorry that's a ridiculous theory!
I know Atwell did the infamous Leeds Villa 1&1 sending off El Ghazi disgracefully and not having any handle of the gam.
Villa have won 9 and lost 3 when he's officiating so he's not doing anything to stop us winning matches apart from the Leeds game where he allowed their goal.
Well yes, that was my point.
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Oh jesus fucking christ.
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Oh jesus fucking christ.
I am sure it can be AI assimilated.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
Yeah, but being 'bent' and bottling decisions are two different things.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
Yeah, but being 'bent' and bottling decisions are two different things.
Has he ever said anything on record about the decision? I would be intrigued as to what his thought process was, the pot bellied ******.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
Yeah, but being 'bent' and bottling decisions are two different things.
You are corrrect replace bent (as i do not think he took a bung to not give it) with useless and bottling it with outright cheating by not applying the rules
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There was a podcast last year I think where he mentioned it - cannot remember what he said though.
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The problem is the ref's who believe they "HAVE TO" ensure finals are a spectacle for all fans. So they let more go then they should.
Look at Milford for the 91 final. Gascoigne should have been carded for a high foot directly into Parkers chest. Milford gave the foul and no card. He then allowed the foul on Gary Charles with no punishment to Spurs either. He even did an interview a few years ago with "how would it have looked if he had red carded Gascoigne when he was being carried off on a stretcher". Well like you were doing the correct thing as per the laws of the game, but as Gascoigne actually got up and went into the wall for the freekick before collapsing and going off on said stretcher, don't fucking lie you grey-pube-haired twat, you were not going to send off one of the big names in the final.
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Wasn't it the great CoC himself, Graham Poll, who defended Dowd's cowardice (at best) by saying, "In cup finals, referees have to ref the occasion."
Tip -top! Let's just rip up the fucking rule-book and get on with it!
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I have never been angrier in my life than that 2010 final. The only thing that prevented me being thrown out of the pub in Shanghai was the fact the staff couldn’t understand me.
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Truly, one of the greatest referees to ever blow his Acme Thunderer.
FA Cup referee's cup final medal to be auctioned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2kdvvnk18qo
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The official Atwell was appalling today.
There should have been a sending off for Ipswich Captain.
And there were many fouls he wasn't giving cost us the game
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We were pretty poor and unbalanced but I don’t think Attwell shouldn’t be reffing our games!
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Morsy should've walked for sure. Went in late on Tielemans and I presumed last warning and then he does the same to Jaden five minutes later and ref just ignores it.
We were our own worst enemies in the second half but we were 2-1 up when he was putting in those late challengers so it did impact things.
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Across this weekend refs have bottled second yellows.
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Awful today.
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Across this weekend refs have bottled second yellows.
Yeah, it's definitely feeling like this at the moment.
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Across this weekend refs have bottled second yellows.
Yeah, it's definitely feeling like this at the moment.
Yeah but in our case the ref bottled it twice!
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I don’t normally comment much on ref’s, but his failure to send their captain off was something else.
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I don’t normally comment much on ref’s, but his failure to send their captain off was something else.
Yeah, I'm one of the more lenient ones on here in regards to refs, but it was simply utter horseshit.
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Yeah. You can sympathise if a referee misses something, but when they see it and decide they're going to ignore the rules, they're cheats.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
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Atwell is a total scum bag. He has no idea the difference between a foul and a fair challenge.
Totally bottled it yesterday, there were 2 bookable offences after the yellow.
Absolute idiot or bent , not sure.
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Atwell is a total scum bag. He has no idea the difference between a foul and a fair challenge.
Totally bottled it yesterday, there were 2 bookable offences after the yellow.
Absolute idiot or bent , not sure.
Bottled it; he would have given them yellows if they had not already been on yellows.
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Cov supporter
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The laws of the game are there for all to see but it’s the application that’s the issue. Yesterday was comical, he saw both fouls and decided not to give him a card. They should be wheeled out in front of the cameras and made to justify decisions like this. It’s too easy for them to run off to the next game without justifying their decisions to the people that count, the fans.
This seasons fad is booking players for kicking the ball away, which is good, but it won’t last more than a few months.
There’s having a bad game and then there’s
doing what you want and ignoring the laws of the game. I guarantee he’ll be giving players second yellows for a lot less than that this season.
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He booked Digne correctly for kicking the ball away, but he hadn't seen it and did it off the back of the Ipswich player moaning about it.
He looked like a child that had lost both his parents and his favourite teddy in a large supermarket, scared and only with a vague comprehension of what was going on around him.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
😄
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
😄
I know what you mean though, we were crap. But still, when you have ref like and the opposition can do what they like as long as the ref is looking directly at them (which was every single time) it knocks you off your game, that's why teams do it.
The game now is pretty soft all in all, but when you do get a team sticking the boot in rather than clamp down on it, refs seem raise the threshold for that team on what constitutes a foul. Dyche's teams get this, his big clogger's always seem to get away with challenges that would be punished differently (see Tarkowski again at the weekend) in other games because they make so bloody many of them.
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I am convinced that the refs have never played a proper game of adult football.
You know instinctively the difference between an over the top challenge, a deliberate foul and a miss- timed tackle.
The second yellow card offence was a deliberate stamp with no real concern for the ball.
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We win the game against 10 so he has almost certainly cost us two points that may be critical come the end of the season.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
😄
I know what you mean though, we were crap. But still, when you have ref like and the opposition can do what they like as long as the ref is looking directly at them (which was every single time) it knocks you off your game, that's why teams do it.
The game now is pretty soft all in all, but when you do get a team sticking the boot in rather than clamp down on it, refs seem raise the threshold for that team on what constitutes a foul. Dyche's teams get this, his big clogger's always seem to get away with challenges that would be punished differently (see Tarkowski again at the weekend) in other games because they make so bloody many of them.
Going away early in the season to a newly promoted team, I'm expecting the referee to favour them with 50/50s and let them get stuck into us. We should take it as a compliment, match their intensity and the gulf in class should take care of the rest. I'm not sure our midfielders made a tackle between them in the first half.
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He booked Digne correctly for kicking the ball away, but he hadn't seen it and did it off the back of the Ipswich player moaning about it.
He looked like a child that had lost both his parents and his favourite teddy in a large supermarket, scared and only with a vague comprehension of what was going on around him.
it's stuff like that which makes me think he's just shit at his job rather than it being spite towards us because of who he supports.
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He booked Digne correctly for kicking the ball away, but he hadn't seen it and did it off the back of the Ipswich player moaning about it.
He looked like a child that had lost both his parents and his favourite teddy in a large supermarket, scared and only with a vague comprehension of what was going on around him.
it's stuff like that which makes me think he's just shit at his job rather than it being spite towards us because of who he supports.
I absolutely put it down to that rather than malice.
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For the second week running, we had one player booked compared to 5 or 6 for the oppo. There is something about rotational fouling which refs do not seem to track. When I reffed (admittedly at the junior level), I would warn the captain of a continually-fouling side that he would get booked if the team continued to transgress. It often worked, and when any complaints were made I made sure people knew I'd warned the team before.
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After the Leeds away debacle he should never have reffed another one of our games again. He is a useless turd and that is being unkind to turds.
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Like the awful Coote, he actually looks terrified that he's out there.
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Vs Bayern Munich 41 year old Radu Petrescu is the official from Romanian.
This is a biggest Match of his Career arguably.
He didn't officiate champions league football last season But did one match season before - so only ever officiated once in Champions League Plzen 2-4 Barcelona.
And he awarded a penalty to home side Plzen!
This season in 5 matches in Romania league he has shown 21 cards in total.
And Europa Qualifying match this season one match and he showed 5 yellow cards.
Overall in 8 matches he's been in charge this season he has shown 32 cards
So that's an average of 4 a game.
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This could probably just go in the pre-match thread Footy.
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I just like to put ref appointments here so it can then be scrutinized specifically. And then same after matches if necessary.
I find things can get lost for discussion on pre match thread but I take your point.
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Well, that was something else last night in terms of bias.
Seeing Newton Heath getting a soft penalty on Sunday will almost be a breath of fresh air!
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That's two matches in a row where an opponent should have been sent off but ref didn't.
Can Referee Robert Jones Vs Man Utd make the right call if comes to it.
He's been appointed as official with John Brookes on VAR.
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So Morsy last week and Rashford today. I like Unai's respect for the officials but I think it doesn't actually do us any favours.
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3 games and 3 ****** who should have walked.
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3 games and 3 ****** who should have walked.
All in a single week. Dog shit officials again. It's so boring now.
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I couldn’t really see the Rashford incident, after he’d already been booked as it was the opposite end, was it really that bad?
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I couldn’t really see the Rashford incident, after he’d already been booked as it was the opposite end, was it really that bad?
Definite yellow if he hadn't got one already
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Was a total bottle job by a poor referee…and his timekeeping at the end was awful
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I couldn’t really see the Rashford incident, after he’d already been booked as it was the opposite end, was it really that bad?
Definite yellow if he hadn't got one already
Yeah it was just so obvious. I'm not sure why there seems to be some artificial higher threshold for a 2nd booking. Walk the ******.
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No attempt to get the ball, just trips him running towards the penalty area.
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Dictionary definition of a yellow.
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Seen a replay. Fucking hell.
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Staggeringly poor decision not to give the second yellow.
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Seen a replay. Fucking hell.
Yeah just seen it, if it was the one on Bailey, definite yellow and would have been if he hadn’t already been shown one, not that it should make a difference. The ref wasn’t shy in giving them yellow cards but bottled that one.
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Clear yellow card. Should have been sent off. Poor decision.
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I think the club should at least ask the question.
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That's two matches in a row where an opponent should have been sent off but ref didn't.
Can Referee Robert Jones Vs Man Utd make the right call if comes to it.
He's been appointed as official with John Brookes on VAR.
As No Jones can't make the call.
Rashford should have gone for two yellows
3 matches in a row now where refs call is incorrect and sending off players weren't implemented.
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I was listening on the radio - and Clinton Morrison said it wasnt a yellow - and what he doesnt know about football isnt worth knowing.
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I was listening on the radio - and Clinton Morrison said it wasnt a yellow - and what he doesnt know about football isnt worth knowing.
Morrison was bound to defend the referee. He's a pathetic pundit. Can't string a decent sentence together....
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I heard them talking about second yellows on the football weekly podcasts and they mentioned that Mike Dean (I think) stated that there is a higher threshold for 2nd yellows, which is frankly complete and utter bollocks.
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I heard them talking about second yellows on the football weekly podcasts and they mentioned that Mike Dean (I think) stated that there is a higher threshold for 2nd yellows, which is frankly complete and utter bollocks.
Mike Dean is a grade one publicity seeking tosser. The ball had been played by Bailey and he was skipping away from Rashford who lazily rather than maliciously kicked Bailey's legs from under him. It was as blatant a booking as it gets. The very definition of a yellow card. Mike Dean gets a well paid voice on Sky Sports and spends his time being self appointed president of the referees covering each other's arse society. He's a sycophantic little knobhead.
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What I did see over the weekend was at long last defenders being penalised for scragging in the penalty box. I hope they also take note of the blocking that Arsenal employ.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
You could just as well penalise Man United players for not trying to get it off him. If the ball is in play we are entitled to hold it and ask the attacking team to come for it as it is part of our game plan.
I can maybe forgive fans for howling about it, but you’d expect a ref to understand the basics.
Are they going to start booking players for taking it into the corner next?
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I was listening on the radio - and Clinton Morrison said it wasnt a yellow - and what he doesnt know about football isnt worth knowing.
Morrison was bound to defend the referee. He's a pathetic pundit. Can't string a decent sentence together....
I think it was more a forward defending a typical forward's challenge. It wasn't dangerous, it wasn't designed to hurt Bailey, it was just a typical deliberate foul when a winger gets away from you towards the byline. A yellow card all day.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
You could just as well penalise Man United players for not trying to get it off him. If the ball is in play we are entitled to hold it and ask the attacking team to come for it as it is part of our game plan.
I can maybe forgive fans for howling about it, but you’d expect a ref to understand the basics.
Are they going to start booking players for taking it into the corner next?
This.
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Was not as bad as some of the refs we have had against that lot. Bottled the Rashford decision and gave them a few free kicks for throwing themselves to the floor. The Gonadchio free kick was particularly poor.
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Don't be fooled into thinking Refs decisions with yellow cards is in any way helping the team that is consistently being fouled.
If they do not follow up with another yellow, for in most cases the same type of foul as they received the initial yellow for, then there is no point in issuing a yellow at all.
Yellow cards are supposed to be a deterrent; if you allow that same player to commit fouls in the same manner throughout the rest of the game there no longer is a deterrent.
That is the question that should be put to referees and their governing body, if you do not follow the correct applications of the disciplinary rules, verbal warning, followed by written warning, followed by dismissal, if the same behaviour is exhibited throughout all 3 stages, WHY?
Stop all this false punishment that is being completely ignored by the instigators, much like repeat offenders in real life, the punishment must make the offence untenable.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
You could just as well penalise Man United players for not trying to get it off him. If the ball is in play we are entitled to hold it and ask the attacking team to come for it as it is part of our game plan.
I can maybe forgive fans for howling about it, but you’d expect a ref to understand the basics.
Are they going to start booking players for taking it into the corner next?
This.
Yep, that pissed me off, pathetic from the ref.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
I didn't notice that!
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Don't be fooled into thinking Refs decisions with yellow cards is in any way helping the team that is consistently being fouled.
If they do not follow up with another yellow, for in most cases the same type of foul as they received the initial yellow for, then there is no point in issuing a yellow at all.
Yellow cards are supposed to be a deterrent; if you allow that same player to commit fouls in the same manner throughout the rest of the game there no longer is a deterrent.
That is the question that should be put to referees and their governing body, if you do not follow the correct applications of the disciplinary rules, verbal warning, followed by written warning, followed by dismissal, if the same behaviour is exhibited throughout all 3 stages, WHY?
Stop all this false punishment that is being completely ignored by the instigators, much like repeat offenders in real life, the punishment must make the offence untenable.
Because then there'd be no bloody referees.
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I thought he did okay yesterday. He gave us a lot of decisions especially in the first half. But he definitely bottled that decision. It was right in the corner where their tosspots were housed and it was Rashford so we can't be doing that.
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I thought he did okay yesterday. He gave us a lot of decisions especially in the first half. But he definitely bottled that decision. It was right in the corner where their tosspots were housed and it was Rashford so we can't be doing that.
Yeah he did ok up until he really needed to make a decision, and he didn't.
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Sky Sports Ref Watch:
INCIDENT: Marcus Rashford, already on a yellow card, fouls Leon Bailey. Should the Man Utd forward have been sent off?
Dermot Gallagher ex ref : "What saves him is Dalot, who comes and sweeps the ball up. The argument is he's not breaking a promising attack. He gets a little bit lucky because the ball is running out."
I feel the above criteria is irrelevant as it was a foul and bookable offence!
Very disappointed to hear that reasoning on Sky Sports Ref Watch.
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Silly defence, kicking someone's legs out from under them after they've gone past you isn't a booking if there's a defender covering. The presence of a covering defender, if anything, makes it worse because it makes thge foul entirely unneccesary.
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Yes that might stop a red if it could have been considered a goal scoring opportunity, but it shouldn’t influence the decision to give a yellow.
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Vs Fulham official is South Yorkshire Doncaster Darren England
VAR: Paul Tierney.
He's officiated us 7 times in the Premier League and have won 2 drawn 1 lost 4.
Good news he likes to award us penalties! 4 in 7 matches.
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Vs Fulham official is South Yorkshire Doncaster Darren England
VAR: Paul Tierney.
He's officiated us 7 times in the Premier League and have won 2 drawn 1 lost 4.
Good news he likes to award us penalties! 4 in 7 matches.
Complete spanner, loses control of the game.
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Darren England is one of the few refs to go to the screen and stick with his own decision…poss the only one to do it at VP?
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Vs Fulham official is South Yorkshire Doncaster Darren England
VAR: Paul Tierney.
He's officiated us 7 times in the Premier League and have won 2 drawn 1 lost 4.
Good news he likes to award us penalties! 4 in 7 matches.
Complete spanner, loses control of the game.
Are you saying he gives England a bad name ?
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Darren England is one of the few refs to go to the screen and stick with his own decision…poss the only one to do it at VP?
He was also the VAR official for infamous Spurs v Liverpool game when he was at Stockley Park and the Luis Diaz's goal for Liverpool was incorrectly ruled out for offside.
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Interesting performance by Darren England today.
Got their sending off right
The penalty wasn't given by him and instructed by VAR to go to the monitors then gave it against Cash
A couple of the yellows were harsh for our players
And sent of Philogene for two cautions.
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Vs Arsenal officials will be Chris Kavanagh and VAR John Brooks.
Still no SAOT introduced I wonder when that will come in as it's been delayed but due to be implemented this season in the Prem
Kavanagh booked over half the outfield and gave us 7 cards v Bournemouth earlier this season in 1-1 draw!
In 14 games Kavanagh given out the second most yellow cards this season. 72
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That Bournemouth game was weird, there was barely a bad tackle in the game.
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That Bournemouth game was weird, there was barely a bad tackle in the game.
If I remember rightly, he gave a soft one early on and then was probably obligated to keep going.
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I don’t really see why making a poor decision early on means that becomes the benchmark and basically you perpetuate that original mistake repeatedly.
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I don’t really see why making a poor decision early on means that becomes the benchmark and basically you perpetuate that original mistake repeatedly.
It shouldn’t but it does happen and that Bournemouth game was a classic example. He booked someone early on at a ridiculously low bar (free kick only, have a word in the players ear) and rather than acknowledge he’d maybe gone a bit far he doubled down and was booking pretty much anyone for minor fouls. I’m not normally one for having a go at referees but it was so bad a performance from him it stood out a mile.
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Vs Arsenal officials will be Chris Kavanagh and VAR John Brooks.
Still no SAOT introduced I wonder when that will come in as it's been delayed but due to be implemented this season in the Prem
Kavanagh booked over half the outfield and gave us 7 cards v Bournemouth earlier this season in 1-1 draw!
In 14 games Kavanagh given out the second most yellow cards this season. 72
Maybe games like this is why my brother's mate (L1 ref) and his pals have been told to give fewer cards!
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The ref against Everton did pretty well I thought.
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He certainly did with Onana….he didn’t wimp out to the crowd like Taylor did for Durans red. Barely noticed him all game which is how it should be
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The ref against Everton did pretty well I thought.
He was good. Its a pity he was so inept when he ref'd our game at Forest.
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The ref against Everton did pretty well I thought.
Yep I thought he was ok. I felt like he was letting a fair bit go when they built up a head of steam, but that’s probably more about my confirmation bias. I thought he did well.
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He certainly did with Onana….he didn’t wimp out to the crowd like Taylor did for Durans red. Barely noticed him all game which is how it should be
I thought he was harsh in booking Onana early on and I half expected him to be over eager with them but after that he was pretty sensible, just a shame he felt the need to "lay down the law" early on and then let similar challenges go for the rest of the game.
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Harsh on the Onana booking? Not sure about that it was a pretty ropey challenge on a player running away from him.
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Harsh on the Onana booking? Not sure about that it was a pretty ropey challenge on a player running away from him.
He put a leg in front of him, didn't quite reach the ball and the player tripped over his foot, there was nothing reckless about it. It's exactly the sort of foul that often gets given as a yellow card but shouldn't be because you see 5-6 of them every game.
Mangala alone made 3 tackles that were similar and never got booked.
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Harsh on the Onana booking? Not sure about that it was a pretty ropey challenge on a player running away from him.
Agree, it was stop the break foul….rarely get away with those even with the really crap refs
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Same ref today?
Chris Cavanagh?
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He hates us as well.
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Same ref today?
Chris Cavanagh?
His performance against Bournemouth made me wonder if we were playing a different sport for the day.
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He hates us as well.
I don't know about that, having watched him today I think he's just crap.
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It appears every referee has their own set of rules. The ref at the Newcastle game let a lot go and then the next ref will book everything that moves. Players and fans alike don’t have a clue what to expect.
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Total muppet today again.
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Piss poor from all three today. Fooled by most of the Arsenal histrionics and although we got one or two decisions, I didnt feel we got much.
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That performance today, by the ref and his lino on our side in the second half was as bad as I’ve seen. It wasn’t even thinly veiled incompetence, some may even say it was blind predujice. Quite unbelievable.
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The booking of Emery was ludicrous. He wasn’t kicking the ball away, he was just kicking it.
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The booking of Emery was ludicrous. He wasn’t kicking the ball away, he was just kicking it.
The look on his face would have been called a 'jumped up Hitler' back in the day.
He was almost smiling as he did it. Didn't have the control he wanted so just tried to bully his way through.
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Nah, I’m not having that. Unai toe poked it as hard as he could. I quite enjoyed it though.
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An absolute bellend and homer.
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Surprised that Emery has been booked thrice. He's usually as good as gold.
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Surprised that Emery has been booked thrice. He's usually as good as gold.
We've had loads of refs this season either lose control or give us absolutely nothing.
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Monaco v Villa.
Top Official this evening Slavko Vinčić from Slovenia he's a outstanding ref.
Was the official for last season final.
Certainly he's step ahead and above likes of Kavanagh.
This season he's averaged 4 cards a game in UCL.
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Officials for West Ham
Referee: Peter Banks VAR: Paul Tierney.
Averages 4 cards a game.
Ahh Peter Bankes the man in charge for the infamous 3-3 v Preston sent off James Chester in that game and gave us a penalty for Glen Whelan to take...
This season he has only done one Villa match officiated our 2-1 victory Man City.
6 bookings in the game
Booked 3 players of ours including Martinez for dissent!
Officiated one West Ham match this season which they lost 3-0 away at forest and had a player sent off for two yellow cards.
In the past he has sent off Matty Cash for two yellows
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Thought the Monaco ref was poor. Any contact meant a free-kick.
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Thought the Monaco ref was poor. Any contact meant a free-kick.
I thought he had a strange game, I thought he had a good first half, kept the cards in his pocket, let the game flow where he could but also played advantage properly, with 2-3 cases where he realised after a couple of seconds that there was no advantage and pulled it back. 2nd half he seemed to lose control a bit and started giving them a lot more free kicks for some pretty theatrical dives which just made the game really stop-start and stopped either side really getting any momentum, which obviously suited them more than us.
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Carragher claiming the players are not making easy for Peter Bankes.
I'd argue that Bankes lacking authority and letting fouls like the blatant one on Tielemans by Kudus in midfield led to immense frustration as well as confusion of how physical can get!
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I'm feeling Bankes has caused problems to players here due to his nature of officiating.
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That was as bad a refereeing display as I've seen for a very long time. West ham lad should have walked, without doubt.
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I have no idea which rules Peter fuckn Banks was choosing to use and which to ignore during that match. He obviously wasn't sure either. Shocking
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Scandal he didn't send off Alvarez today. Even on a yellow he committed the most obvious bookable offence you can get and he just dismissed it.
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That ref was awful today.
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Banked was awful today. Poor judgement and total lack of consistency causes frustrated players which raises the temperature
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Banked was awful today. Poor judgement and total lack of consistency causes frustrated players which raises the temperature
Perfectly illustrated at half time when the whole ground booed him off.
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Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
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That’s as bad a refereeing performance as I’ve seen for some time. He didn’t have a clue what was going on, bottled a second yellow and missed some blatant fouls.
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Carragher claiming the players are not making easy for Peter Bankes.
I'd argue that Bankes lacking authority and letting fouls like the blatant one on Tielemans by Kudus in midfield led to immense frustration as well as confusion of how physical can get!
Sorry, what?? The players are supposed to make things easy for the ref??? Which planet does Carragher live on ?
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I watch a lot of sports. Football haa by far the worst officiating of any of them. To-days performance by the ref and his linos was inept throughout. The incompetent officiating, (which is a given for every game) is an embarrassment and ruining the game for players and fans.
To-days stooge was totally clueless! Something needs to be done to address it and quickly.
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Which planet does Carragher live on ?
Only saw the quote, but he appeared to mention before the match that the reason Ollie isn't on the same form as last season is because he has Duran on the bench. Not sure what to make of that comment, especially as the reason Ollie was so good last season was..... we had Duran on the bench.
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Soucek should have been off today as well. Two handed push off the ball on Cash before a free kick that the referee saw. It was as blatant a yellow as you’ll see so either he doesn’t take Kamara out later and we get a good break or he gets his second yellow. As for Alvarez, how that wasn’t a second yellow…
He was just incompetent from start to finish to be honest and it felt like we got the worse end of it although I’m sure we got one or two our way, just not the bigger calls.
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I have no idea which rules Peter fuckn Banks was choosing to use and which to ignore during that match. He obviously wasn't sure either. Shocking
Like most refs seem to do these days, he just makes his own up. They're a feckin' embarrassment to the sport!
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Alvarez staying on a yellow and not seeing a second one then red for this was an horrendous decision.
https://x.com/RedCardGiven/status/1883582510187327907
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The ref at Arsenal was bad enough, this bell end wasn’t far short of it either. Absolutely bloody clueless.
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Three times this year the referee has been the only person in the ground, including the opposition, who didn't think that a player should receive a second yellow card. Gutless bottling cowards.
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Carragher claiming the players are not making easy for Peter Bankes.
I'd argue that Bankes lacking authority and letting fouls like the blatant one on Tielemans by Kudus in midfield led to immense frustration as well as confusion of how physical can get!
Sorry, what?? The players are supposed to make things easy for the ref??? Which planet does Carragher live on ?
I can only think of crowding the ref, which is what they did when Tielemans got booked and not falling over saying you’ve been elbowed when you haven’t which is what they did as well. If the referee punishes that he gets control of the game but he didn’t. He lost control because of his own inactions and nothing else.
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Another absolute shocker.
A total joke of a ref, no idea how idiots like Banks actually get paid to ref.
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Another absolute shocker.
A total joke of a ref, no idea how idiots like Banks actually get paid to ref.
On the way to the match my son was reminding me how poor his record was. At leat he was true to form.
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Worst ref I've seen at Villa Park since that joker in tje Conference League semi-final. He was embarrassingly bad today though and lost control over certain periods of the game. Awful performance.
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Alvarez staying on a yellow and not seeing a second one then red for this was an horrendous decision.
https://x.com/RedCardGiven/status/1883582510187327907
Even worse as MOTD pointed out that he could have been yellowed for kicking the ball away in the first half.
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A truly shocking performance. Only one thing is clear - absolutely nothing will be done about it.
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Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
Same here, Paul. I hate doing it, people will often bollock a ref for 2 mistakes and forget the 15 correct calls but this ref was absolutely terrible. He completely lost control of the game.
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I'm feeling Bankes has caused problems to players here due to his nature of officiating.
Spot on!
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Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
Same here, Paul. I hate doing it, people will often bollock a ref for 2 mistakes and forget the 15 correct calls but this ref was absolutely terrible. He completely lost control of the game.
That’s exactly it, he seemed to be guessing decisions half the time and the rest of it just ignoring what was happening.
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With the access of VAR, there is no excuse for not getting virtually every decision correct. PGMOL should be scrapped and never seen again. Blatant dives pushes in the back etc are all seen clearly in real time and unfortunately ignored, if it suits the narrative!
These referees know the rules and should be forced to implement them without favour.
It wouldn't take long to improve the game.
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Nothing will change because the refs etc are all looking after each other, the obvious thing to do is to go through footage of the game (not incidents in isolation) and judge whether or not the refereeing is up to the standard required
PGMOL will never do this, it needs independent investigation
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I can understand refs not seeing everything - but with 4 pairs of eyes seeing a ball kicked away should be punished - but that was only important at the start of the season.
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It started with the shove in the back on Tielemans on the halfway line when he was breaking forward which was a clear foul, and things deteriorated from there. I felt he let some really physical stuff go and the players took their lead from that. I know PGMOL wanted to allow more physicality but it went too far yesterday and he never got control of the game again.
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I can understand refs not seeing everything - but with 4 pairs of eyes seeing a ball kicked away should be punished - but that was only important at the start of the season.
It was important until Arsenal got punished for it twice and then was slowly pushed down the must be punished priorities. Which has now been joined by blatant tactical fouling judging by yesterdays standards.
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Ah Arsenal. Nobody, NOBODY suffers at the hands of corrupt referees as they so obviously do. I was listening to the Rest is Football podcast earlier, and dear of 'Big Meeks' said that he considered the red card to be the worst ever decision in PL history.
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Another absolute shocker.
A total joke of a ref, no idea how idiots like Banks actually get paid to ref.
Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
Same here, Paul. I hate doing it, people will often bollock a ref for 2 mistakes and forget the 15 correct calls but this ref was absolutely terrible. He completely lost control of the game.
Have you ever seen so many players grab and handle the ball in a match ? Wanting a free kick , officiating it themselves . I haven't ever at this level.
There were several occasions when players took upon themselves to hold on to the ball with their hands wanting a free kick.
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I'm feeling Bankes has caused problems to players here due to his nature of officiating.
Spot on!
Could see it in the match couldn't you ?
Clearly there was not trust in Ref authority and players felt to officiate themselves.
Bankes was being deliberate awkward just to highlight I'm still in charge.
On the occasion Mings handled and caught the ball their were mitigating circumstances, Bankes had the good sense rule and applied it for Ty as he technically could have been booked for it but at least the official took context into account on that occasion.
Booking Mings would have been downright preposterous!
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FV
[/quote]
Don't ever bother replying to me! I will never be reading it....
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The only consolation I can take from their lad not getting a blatant 2nd yellow was that it was pretty much identical to the one Onana didn't get at Everton. So consistent. Consistently wrong but consistent.
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Referees are on a hiding to nothing.
People have moaned about referees for ever, it's just that these days every decision is pored over repeatedly, replayed to death everywhere and it reinforces the view they are all shit.
I used to work with a guy who was a linesman and a referee, he said he'd make a decision, being close to the action and would swear he'd got it right only to watch it back on Match of the Day later and realise he'd not seen what he thought.
With VAR, and 4th officials, the system should be more supportive, and objective, but as we saw with the Duran sending off, it was split half and half about whether he should be sent off or not. The Arsenal sending off was a weak one for sure, but that matters not.
I also liked the VAR reviewed sending off in the Dundee Utd game yesterday, the ref didn't change his mind!
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The only consolation I can take from their lad not getting a blatant 2nd yellow was that it was pretty much identical to the one Onana didn't get at Everton. So consistent. Consistently wrong but consistent.
True, but Onana didn't have 2-3 other potential yellows as well. The foul on McGinn that the ref didn't even give as a free kick and the kicking the ball away could both easily have been given.
I've said many times I think there are too many yellow cards given in football which has rendered them meaningless but unless that does change and the threshold is raised significantly there needs to be more consistency. Bankes created all the problems in that match yesterday because the players couldn't know what he expected from them as he just seemed to make it up in the moment.
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Rogers got a yellow, with no previous, for the exact foul Alvarez then didn't get booked for. This was after kicking the ball away and committing several other fouls. That's not hard to call, it's doing your basic duty.
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The Arsenal one was hardly the worst sending off ever, it was clearly a yellow card, possibly an "orange", and granted it's a harsh red, but hardly a miscarriage of justice, the kid made no attempt at getting the ball, and could have done real damage to the opposition player, it's not too different to McGinn's v Spurs last season.
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The Arsenal one was hardly the worst sending off ever, it was clearly a yellow card, possibly an "orange", and granted it's a harsh red, but hardly a miscarriage of justice, the kid made no attempt at getting the ball, and could have done real damage to the opposition player, it's not too different to McGinn's v Spurs last season.
Yep, agree with you.
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It's the reason why I'd like them to explain their decisions like they do in the NFL.
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Following the advent of VAR, the chicanery by the PGMOL has been bewildering in order to protect their charges. Dictats about various rules, lasting as previously pointed out for two weeks before being quietly forgotten, identical incidents having two separate outcomes but then being defended as both correct (Tamworth V Spurs FK that lead to the first goal), the handball nonsense, kicking the ball away a yellow one minute then not the next, all in wrestling being permitted in the area and what were previously standard fouls now deemed a fair challenge (Cash at Forest). I don't actually know what constitutes a foul anymore which is of little consequence but I don't think the refs do either and that's what prompts the howls of dismay.
VAR, while not ultimately to blame, has had the unintended consequence of making things much, much worse. Over used on one hand, underused on the other.
What a fucking mess.
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Good summary that Nev.
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The most ludicrous situation last night, and there were many, was when the ref had to be reminded that the West Ham player had to leave the pitch after receiving treatment. When a referee can't even apply the very basic of rules, you've got no hope with anything else.
Last night was a prime example of someone way out of his depth. He wasn't helped by his assistants. Anyone assessing that performance would flag that as a concern. But I'm sure he got a 5 star rating from his mates.
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The biggest farce is whenever officials battery packs run out and they have to reattach them. It's actually such poor form.Flying drones would be better at overseeing matches. No need for any sort of ref on the pitch.
They can be in the stadium watching on screen instead of Stockley Park but let the tech do the majority of the control. The tech can alert the official for decisions that need to be checked on screen and for a human to come on to pitch where really necessary.
It's ridiculous the way drones are treated in football laws as if its above a stadium the officials currently have to stop the game.
The Prem of course will be the last ones to introduce it of all top flight leagues in Europe.
I mean we are still waiting on SAOT - semi automated tech for offsides.
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You just new it, Woolwich appeal upheld. Fucking ******, now try and say that there is no bias.
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The little snide kicked someone off the ball, it was a red card.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
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I had seen it had been overturned. The released documents will be interesting but I was expecting it after they overturned the Everton players last season when he went over the ball with his foot. However it has also shown up the PGMOL for telling VAR to back up the on-field decisions as much as possible, the same as when Duran was sent off.
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I watched a bit of the Chelsea v Arsenal WSL on Sunday. One of the Arsenal players got sent off for foul and abusive language. Think it was a straight red as well.
May the PL should take note.
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He was having a bad game and i think he knew it, went to pieces a little bit. Just a bit weird that everything seemed to go against us.
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I watched a bit of the Chelsea v Arsenal WSL on Sunday. One of the Arsenal players got sent off for foul and abusive language. Think it was a straight red as well.
May the PL should take note.
It will just be like the previous stuff like booking players surrounding the ref, yet 10 players were crowding the Arse ref Saturday and nothing.
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So Arseanal get the red overturned shock horror . If it was us or a Palace or Fulham you just now the decision gets upheld.
Every week we have Arsenal players and arteta reffing the game in the real refs face , all goes unpunished . Scandalous.
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So Arseanal get the red overturned shock horror . If it was us or a Palace or Fulham you just now the decision gets upheld.
Every week we have Arsenal players and arteta reffing the game in the real refs face , all goes unpunished . Scandalous.
Of course, that doesn't work for the Calvin-Lewis overturn that happened last season with a similar challenge. Unless you believe the FA have an agenda with Dyche's Everton at the time.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
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I can see why it was overturned, I don’t like the cynical challenges but it wasn’t dangerous to me. I still think JD’s one was debatable, but either way it’s not a conspiracy. At worst it’s incompetence or alternatively it is subjective.
What shouldn’t be lost in all this the teams and some of the managers are massively responsible for the toxicity that exists around all this stuff - which I think ultimately has a knock-on impact to quality of decision making.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
Yes , I'm highlighting the part you ignored too .
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I can see why it was overturned, I don’t like the cynical challenges but it wasn’t dangerous to me. I still think JD’s one was debatable, but either way it’s not a conspiracy. At worst it’s incompetence or alternatively it is subjective.
What shouldn’t be lost in all this the teams and some of the managers are massively responsible for the toxicity that exists around all this stuff - which I think ultimately has a knock-on impact to quality of decision making.
Exactly , Declan Rice plus others squeezing and in the refs face .
Also the Newcastle players who got in the refs face for Duran incident , the keeper ran 40 yards , Joelinton of all people demonstrating and getting the imaginary card out .
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
Yes , I'm highlighting the part you ignored too .
And I didn't disagree with that. I pretty much stated the same in the post before yours.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
Yes , I'm highlighting the part you ignored too .
And I didn't disagree with that. I pretty much stated the same in the post before yours.
I think these players need dealing with , and it is really prevalent with Arsenal , Liverpool are bad too .
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
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If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How tat may,or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
And as he states he has had shitloads of abuse most of his life for just being a ref, a bad one most times but still I expect the abuse has probably been well over the top for what is after all just a sport.
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You just new it, Woolwich appeal upheld. Fucking ******, now try and say that there is no bias.
Pisses me off
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You just new it, Woolwich appeal upheld. Fucking ******, now try and say that there is no bias.
100% bias .
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Arteta saying we should ‘get the hate out of the game” following abuse the ref got from arsenal fans. The absolute hypocrisy of that is astounding.
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I hate Arteta and that's not changing any time soon.
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Arteta saying we should ‘get the hate out of the game” following abuse the ref got from arsenal fans. The absolute hypocrisy of that is astounding.
A neck of the purest brass, but then the spittle flecked abuse meted out by that Whiskey faced bastard at Newton Heath is always overlooked and even laughed at via "Fergie Time". Every time I hear that fucking phrase I think of what could've been.
Shower of bastards, the lot of em.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
Quite, so the individual questioning it is taking a strange position on this.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
Quite, so the individual questioning it is taking a strange position on this.
Yes we don’t know if it’s true or a way of deflecting his behavior.
To be honest I don’t really care, he was a Twat of a ref and did us no favours whatsoever.
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Gay or straight Coote was crap and fuck off.
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It may have been a harsh red card for Arsenal but Skelly definitely showed more intention to foul than Duran but he's just a young lad so it's ok
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I'm not sure what Coote did wrong, until being overly generous to Liverpool as he knew the story was breaking.
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I'm not sure what Coote did wrong, until being overly generous to Liverpool as he knew the story was breaking.
Brentford away.
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Everton away, Brighton at home.
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Not sure if you're allowed to praise refs on this thread, anyway thought he was ok last night.
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Clement Turpin is one of the best if not thee best there is currently.
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Clement Turpin is one of the best if not thee best there is currently.
Looked to let the game flow last night I thought? Obviously knew the context of the match etc
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I thought he was too lenient. Can't remember any particularly egregious decisions, but no persistent fouling booking was shocking.
Still, I'd definitely rather have that than the cheat we had against Juventus.
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Not sure if you're allowed to praise refs on this thread, anyway thought he was ok last night.
Was just saying that in the post match thread. I thought he was good probably one of the best we have had all season.
Let the game flow, didnt give needless yellows and i thought was just very good.
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Celtic got away with breaking up play way too many times. Should have started dishing the yellows so we could break their tackles without pre historic jocks pulling us down every 30 seconds.
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I'd love to see the correlation between ref scores / perceived performance and results of the team.
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I thought the referee last night was very good…he was giving the fouls that were fouls and whilst I would have liked to have seen a few cards for those fouls he was consistent for both sides. Personally I thought he was easily the best we have seen this season in any competition
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I thought the referee last night was very good…he was giving the fouls that were fouls and whilst I would have liked to have seen a few cards for those fouls he was consistent for both sides. Personally I thought he was easily the best we have seen this season in any competition
Agreed. I’ve been critical of other referees in this thread, so only fair to recognise a good one when we see one.
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Arsenal have been charged over surrounding the ref on Saturday.
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Arsenal have been charged over surrounding the ref on Saturday.
They’ll appeal and receive a full apology for the ref standing in their way as they tried to line up and defend the free kick
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Andy madley for the Wolves game
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Andy madley for the Wolves game
Truly?
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Andy madley for the Wolves game
Truly?
Deeply
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I thought the referee last night was very good…he was giving the fouls that were fouls and whilst I would have liked to have seen a few cards for those fouls he was consistent for both sides. Personally I thought he was easily the best we have seen this season in any competition
Agreed. I’ve been critical of other referees in this thread, so only fair to recognise a good one when we see one.
Overall he had a good game. Agree about the number of fouls Celtic committed and got away with.
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I must say that i hardly noticed who the ref was - that is always a sign of a great performance as he let the game flow.
Better than the attention seeking knobheads we have in the prem
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I think the only frustration with him was the rotational and persistent fouling particularly the guy man marking Ramsey. Other than that he was very very good. I listened to the The Villa Podcast earlier with the two Irish lads and they reckon he’s been the best ref in Europe for the past few seasons and has been unlucky to not get some of the biggest games/finals.
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Arsenal have been charged over surrounding the ref on Saturday.
Correctly so. Doesn't matter if you perceive a decision to be incorrect, its no excuse.
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I agree, just some posters were adamant they weren't even getting charged for it. Although the ref should have shown them cards on the day.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
Quite, so the individual questioning it is taking a strange position on this.
Other than including the word 'German' in front of '******', I can't say I'm really bothered about anything Coote has said or done.
He may have been a shit ref, god knows, I don't know one from the other.
But personally I'm not too fussed about whether he does coke or gets drunk and calls a certified ****** a ******.
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They are ruining the game,another absolute shit show of individual errors and a bent VAR intervention.
No one knows what the laws are anymore or more accurately when and how the laws will be applied.
It can not just be incompetence, it must be deliberate either to sensetialise the game or for more sinister reasons,
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Back to my perennial rant about how PGMOL needs to be disbanded and the FA should use overseas officials should be used, such as M. Turpin from the Celtic game, until something else is implemented. It'll never happen though
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Another game, another woeful decision.
Pre VAR you could accept that people make mistakes but how on earth do they explain these weekly decisions now?
It’s not just the odd one, it’s every week and there’s no excuse for it. No consistency, total confusion amongst the players and fans and they’ve even confused themselves.
What a shambles!
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We aren’t allowed call stuff corrupt, apparently.
But the way that the officials cover their own ineptitude and mistakes, that looks and smells like corruption to me
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Watched the replay first time and it looked good and fair so I knew they'd disallow it as there's always some bizarre interpretation they cook up to cover their mates arse.
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We aren’t allowed call stuff corrupt, apparently.
But the way that the officials cover their own ineptitude and mistakes, that looks and smells like corruption to me
It is.
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The Malen goal was offside. Rogers was stood offside and his only role in that routine was to disrupt Semedo and buy McGinn a yard or two of space. Naive for McPhee to think that wouldn't get pulled up
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We aren’t allowed call stuff corrupt, apparently.
But the way that the officials cover their own ineptitude and mistakes, that looks and smells like corruption to me
I don’t think referee’s are corrupt, I just think they’ve tied themselves in knots and now don’t have a clue how to use the laws of the game.
Each referee uses their own interpretation of the laws and it’s as clear as day this total confusion has lead us to where we are today.
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I'm interested to know what the talent pathway is for match officials. I know that back in the day it was all about politicking at the local referees' associations; paying your dues by running the line at midweek Midland Combination reserve fixtures and eventually getting to ref in the Central League or whatever before making the league list. How does it work nowadays?
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I'm interested to know what the talent pathway is for match officials. I know that back in the day it was all about politicking at the local referees' associations; paying your dues by running the line at midweek Midland Combination reserve fixtures and eventually getting to ref in the Central League or whatever before making the league list. How does it work nowadays?
Really interesting question.
Referees (and ARs) that are keen to progress have development plans, targets, coaches, and mentors. They are also ranked and assessed regularly.
I was at an event on Friday evening where one speaker was a AR (linesman) in the EFL. He's ambitious to get on the PL list and spoke about how he was ranked in the top 20 EFL ARs and then had a mare at one game and dropped sixty-odd places - something that, in his view, has set him back a few years.
It means that match officials that want to get can be singularly focused on their reputation.
They all know that if a game passes without incident, they don't get a particularly good mark - prompting some (it is suggested) to quietly wind players up in order to get a visible reaction that they can then sanction, i.e., being "seen to do a good job" as opposed to just doing a good job. IMO it inevitably encourages the wrong behaviours.
The increasing professionalism of match officials comes with issues. The PGMOL and international bodies have become obsessed (IMO) with 'managing the game' as opposed to refereeing the game.
The latter is about being as unobtrusive as possible, ensuring the laws are applied, and having an understanding of what players and coaches do and why (the difference between serious intent and a mistimed tackle, time-wasting, etc.).
'Managing the game' leads them to interfere in every aspect of what happens to prove that they are in charge, in control. It's this mentality that plays into their view that they never get anything wrong - prompting VAR officials to back rather than correct wrong onfield decisions.
The view that they are responsible for 'managing the game' also means they make decisions about how football is played - as evidenced by the PGMOL giving directives about the interpretation of the laws. For example, this season we will "let more go" or whatever.
All match officials have to follow the directives from the PGMOL or risk being marked down and not being retained at a particular level.
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Interesting. Thank you for such a detailed response.
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What has also blown my mind chatting to match officials in the EFL and ambitious young referees - in advance of a game, they do research on the teams and players.
It's claimed that they will perform better if they understand what the team formation will be, which striker might be on a hot streak of scoring goals, and which players have attacted the most cautions so far in the season. :o
The people that have told me this, including a now retired PL referee, were quick to insist that it doesn't mean they are at risk of applying confirmation bias, but to me, it absolutely has to increase the risk.
Plus, how does it help? When they get a teamsheet, do they really say, "well if they change from 4-4-2 to 3-5-1-1, I need to referee the game differently".
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Back to my perennial rant about how PGMOL needs to be disbanded and the FA should use overseas officials should be used, such as M. Turpin from the Celtic game, until something else is implemented. It'll never happen though
I wouldn’t say disbanded…needs Webb removing and the top brass being independent of refs ie not their mates and VAR needs to be treated as a job with operatives that aren’t refs on their day off trying to protect their mates.
We shouldn’t be importing refs either, our league is no more important than anyone other countries league….we need to improve standard of our officials.
VAR has been a convenient excuse for PGMOL to sit behind when in reality our officials have not been improving…need to improve and focus on performance of officials not just the application or not of VAR
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We need to stop demanding perfection* and they need to stop making politician-style claims of infallibility.
* More accurately, claiming every decision against us is a corrupt travesty while every bit of gamesmanship, shithousery and cheating by us is clever.
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Awkward. On Ref Watch yesterday Dermot - assisted by Warnock and Sue Snith - use the Forest disallowed goal v Southampton where Chris Woods was offside but didn't play the ball - as justification for Malen's goal being disallowed. Today the PGMOL have come out and listed it as one of 4 VAR 'mistakes' this season and said it should have stood as Wood didn't play the ball.
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Awkward. On Ref Watch yesterday Dermot - assisted by Warnock and Sue Snith - use the Forest disallowed goal v Southampton where Chris Woods was offside but didn't play the ball - as justification for Malen's goal being disallowed. Today the PGMOL have come out and listed it as one of 4 VAR 'mistakes' this season and said it should have stood as Wood didn't play the ball.
A fine example of how they tie themselves in knots. Apparently VAR is getting better though. They've marked their own homework again yesterday and useage is slightly up with errors down. A+ given by themselves.
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They detail 4 errors but I can’t find the 9 non intervention mistakes listed anywhere.
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The interference was subjective in this case and that is what makes it all flawed. Mr Rednapp perfectly illustrated the point that there was no real interference as Semedo was getting nowhere near McGinn even we assume Rogers poleaxed him which he certainly did not. If it is Liverpool at Wolves that is getting allowed.
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The interference was subjective in this case and that is what makes it all flawed. Mr Rednapp perfectly illustrated the point that there was no real interference as Semedo was getting nowhere near McGinn even we assume Rogers poleaxed him which he certainly did not. If it is Liverpool at Wolves that is getting allowed.
The final bit, all day long.
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VAR just allows a double layer of bias. If you get past the refs you then have to get past full kit wanker watching slow mos.
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To use a boxing analogy first used by Terry Downes when talking about boxing I the US "Over there you have to knock 'em out to get a draw".
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Is Dermot still a ref? Just wondering how he has heard the VAR broadcasts or do the studio people hear those anyway? However I did raise that it a lot of the decision depended on the way the call was made. I still would have preferred the ref to make the final call though.
As for the "independent" decision that the Woods call was wrong, I would have actually stated it was offside anyway as he does push ahead of the defender from an offside position AND went for the ball as well so I'm not sure where they think that was a wrong call.
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Is Dermot still a ref? Just wondering how he has heard the VAR broadcasts or do the studio people hear those anyway? However I did raise that it a lot of the decision depended on the way the call was made. I still would have preferred the ref to make the final call though.
As for the "independent" decision that the Woods call was wrong, I would have actually stated it was offside anyway as he does push ahead of the defender from an offside position AND went for the ball as well so I'm not sure where they think that was a wrong call.
He does Skys ref watch on a Monday so he has the inside track of what the PGMOL brief him to say each week. Invariably he backs the officials decisions or if he is being controversial says it’s open to interpretation :-)
Paid to mark your own homework :-)
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Simon Hooper the ref in the semi final of the league cup announcing decisions to the stadium
Its a good move to see.
He announced that Isak was offside pointing at him and the decision of an indirect free kick.
I like this.
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Simon Hooper the ref in the semi final of the league cup announcing decisions to the stadium
Its a good move to see.
He announced that Isak was offside pointing at him and the decision of an indirect free kick.
I like this.
I saw this.
It happened.
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TBH, it is pretty shite really. I want them miked up for any requests / discussions live. I don't want to know the decision at the end when for most decisions it is very obvious anyway.
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
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I don't want to hear refs shagging thanks.
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For Heavens sake!
Intercourse means communication or dealings between individuals or groups.
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
Filth. Try and keep it clean on here.
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Groups? Disgusting!
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
Filth. Try and keep it clean on here.
Yes exactly.
See above as what intercourse is.
It’s clear trying to debate and discuss but it’s others who are bringing a sense of vulgarism.
It’s not a peep show for refs that people are after and Drummond is being overly crude and twisting it!
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
Filth. Try and keep it clean on here.
Yes exactly.
See above as what intercourse is.
It’s clear trying to debate and discuss but it’s others who are bringing a sense of vulgarism.
It’s not a peep show for refs that people are after and Drummond is being overly crude and twisting it!
Drummond needs to withdraw.
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Twisting it? That sounds painful...
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Villa v Spurs
Official Antony Taylor
Has ref one game for Villa this season and he sent off Duran v Newcastle on Boxing Day
He also ref Spurs v Chelsea this season giving two penalties against Spurs for Chelsea
There is No VAR today but there will be goal line tech:
VAR technology to only be introduced from the fifth round onwards to ensure a "consistent refereeing approach for all clubs taking part in the same stage of the competition".
Because of infrastructure and operational costs, VAR had previously only been used at Premier League grounds, and at Wembley in the FA Cup semi-finals and final.
However, to confuse matters, goalline technology has been in use at Premier League and Championship grounds - where the infrastructure exists - in this year's competition, despite not being available everywhere.
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Thought the ref had a good game today
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Yellow cards could have been earlier for some of their midfield, but I suspect we might have had some too if he had. Also could have been a pen right at the end there.
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Thought the ref had a good game today
Same here, might have booked Bergvall a bit earlier and it was a foul on Rashford outside the box but that was about it.
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He was fine. There were plenty of 50:50 calls but the game flowed and I thought his refereeing supported the game in a balanced way.
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He was fine. There were plenty of 50:50 calls but the game flowed and I thought his refereeing supported the game in a balanced way.
Yep, I thought Anthony Taylor was fine as well. Thought he was lenient with the yellow cards, but he was consistent with it in all fairness.
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Should have stopped the game a lot sooner for Digne’s head injury. Fine apart from that.
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The only inconsistency for me was not giving a free kick on the edge of the box when their guy tangled legs with Rashford but them giving them a free kick when the same happened with Bogarde and Tel. Very similar challenges in almost exactly the same place so not sure how he saw them differently.
Obviously he was poor with the Digne injury, it should never have been left long enough for them to recycle it and get a cross in.
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The only inconsistency for me was not giving a free kick on the edge of the box when their guy tangled legs with Rashford but them giving them a free kick when the same happened with Bogarde and Tel. Very similar challenges in almost exactly the same place so not sure how he saw them differently.
Obviously he was poor with the Digne injury, it should never have been left long enough for them to recycle it and get a cross in.
Tangle of legs? He dived in and took him out in a fit of rage after being 'megged. Blatant.
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The only inconsistency for me was not giving a free kick on the edge of the box when their guy tangled legs with Rashford but them giving them a free kick when the same happened with Bogarde and Tel. Very similar challenges in almost exactly the same place so not sure how he saw them differently.
Obviously he was poor with the Digne injury, it should never have been left long enough for them to recycle it and get a cross in.
Tangle of legs? He dived in and took him out in a fit of rage after being 'megged. Blatant.
I was being kind
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Another strange refereeing performance against Ipswich which asks questions of the laws brought in to stop time wasting.
He allowed the keeper to waste time throughout the game and kept pointing at his watch, acknowledging he knew what was going on. I expected 6/7 minutes to be added not the 4 considering everything that went on.
4 seems to be the amount added when nothing has gone on and especially when he was also the cause of a lot of it by the ridiculous chats he had at with players at corners and free kicks.
Have we had another about turn by the PGMOL or is this another game where the referee has been incompetent?
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I said on the post match thread that there would've been double the time added on if the game was at Anfield (or 'the Etihad' / 'the Emirates') and I stand by that.
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
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The players seem to think they are untouchable. The referees have a lot to deal with. Especially with the trend of players throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest puff of air. They appear to have been shot by some sniper. If the referee gives nothing they are up and racing back up the pitch. They seem to do this more when they have made some kind of mistake. I was watching some old Big Match games the pitches were like Flanders and the tackles were flying in with no one rolling around like they’d been shot.
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The ref at Liverpool was poor today: 2 penalties awarded, neither correctly; one overturned by VAR.
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The ref at Liverpool was poor today: 2 penalties awarded, neither correctly; one overturned by VAR.
Noticeable how he stopped giving Wolves any free-kicks when they got back into it and had Liverpool under pressure. Carragher's commentary also.took a turn at that point as well.
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
I have a completely different memory of this incident! I am pretty sure he shoved past the referee but dawdled to the Witton Lane side as he had been instructed to do!
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
I have a completely different memory of this incident! I am pretty sure he shoved past the referee but dawdled to the Witton Lane side as he had been instructed to do!
It was Omari Hutchinson being subbed right at the end. PeterWithe’s recollection is correct.
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
I have a completely different memory of this incident! I am pretty sure he shoved past the referee but dawdled to the Witton Lane side as he had been instructed to do!
It was Omari Hutchinson being subbed right at the end. PeterWithe’s recollection is correct.
Fair enough! The one I remember must have been earlier on in the game, unless I've got that wrong as well. I do have quite a track record for getting things wrong - I blame my age
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Officials for next 3 games
Liverpool Ref:Pawson. VAR: Alex Chilowicz
Chelsea Ref: Oliver. VAR Paul Tierney
Crystal Palace : Sam Barrat VAR:Jarred Gillet
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Alex Chilowicz:
some more background on Tonight’s VAR. an American association football referee working in the English Football League since 2023. He was previously employed by PRO and officiated in Major League Soccer (MLS) between 2017 and 2023.
Outside of refereeing, Chilowicz works as a musician, with credits in television and film as well as on Broadway!
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I thought the officials were awful again last night.
The amount of times Van Dijk went straight through Watkins and was unbelievably unpunished was laughable
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The eternally cheerful & way off the speed of the modern game Keith Hackett thinks Disasi should have been sent off after his 'clash' with Mac Allister.
If someone's got you in a bear hug what the hell are you supposed to do? Mac Allister should have been booked to IMO.
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The letting the game go seems to mean you can pull push shove with impunity.
Except if the ref wants to influence the game and can penalise one team but not the other.
We have gone from not understanding what constitutes handball to what is a foul.
Its a real mess.
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
They did, and still got it wrong again.
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Michael Oliver was shocking yesterday. And he's reckoned to be one of the top PL referees! We should've had a penalty for the Bogarde incident. VAR is useless!
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
They did, and still got it wrong again.
Dermot Gallagher's usual defence is " both players were holding and pushing but the defender let's go before the ball in in play" Ckearly that one is not going to work here so I think they will just ignore it. Sky didn't seem to refer when talking about Villa after the game although may have covered it later. Clearly and Obviously this wasn't 50/50 with Cucerellas holding being ongoing and including a pull back as Bogarde tried to reach the ball. I can only think the looked at one view and decide no pen whereas the view from behind the goal leaves no doubt. Still it's only Villa!
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Just seen that MOTD didn't discuss after the match. It was included in the match coverage where the commentator refers to the holding and then immediately says VAR have checked it " no penalty". Maybe had we not won they might have reflected on it but I wouldn't put money on it!
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VAR took an eternity looking at the first goal looking for a reason to disallow a perfectly good goal, then within a blink of an eye they dismissed the penalty incident even though it was nailed on. Absolute joke.
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I saw the Bogarde one back on motd. How they decided it wasn't a penalty is laughable.
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https://x.com/avfcstatto/status/1893427542012334303?s=61&t=5gNHKFDBiIG50p8ei1L0Vg
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Another terrible refereeing performance yesterday. There was a ruling this season that tactical fouling would be stamped out. I’ve seen it happening in some games where refs have acted. Then, as per the time wasting rule, some decide it’s not for them.
As with the Ipswich game, instead of booking players for time wasting they stand there pointing at their watches and don’t issue yellow cards. Yesterday the tactical fouling was allowed for some time before cards were pulled out.
Then there’s the penalty, what more can you say other than whoever makes these decisions need removing.
They are still unaccountable and role of their mates on TV to back them thinking we can’t see and have no idea about the game.
I’m not one of them, and don’t believe it, but you can see why people shout about corruption. It’s frustration that makes fans shout that but it’s just pure and simple incompetence at every level.
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I saw the Bogarde one back on motd. How they decided it wasn't a penalty is laughable.
Same just now. It's outrageous.
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
They did, and still got it wrong again.
If they did, it was for a millisecond. Meanwhile they took an eternity to figure out Rashford was onside, when it was one of the most obvious onside decisions ever.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but incompetence only explains so much.
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I saw the Bogarde one back on motd. How they decided it wasn't a penalty is laughable.
It's not just that they didn't give the penalty it was how quickly they dismissed it. Almost as if the outcome had already been decided. I can not for the life of me see why anyone who's ever watched a game of football and has a pair of functioning eyes wouldn't give a penalty. Chelsea AND Man U both getting a clear helping hand from PMGOL this weekend. Something is starting to smell a bit iffy.
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2 other things that refs have stopped acting on:
- kicking the ball away from a set piece was being yellow-carded earlier in the season (Declan Rice picked up 2nd yellow / red card for it, for example). Not now, it seems (a couple of incidents in the Jawdie-Forest really exemplified how refs are now not acting).
- managers are now seemingly allowed to stand outside the designated rectangle in front of the dug-outs. Maresca constantly did it yesterday; Guardiola has been doing it during the current game.
These unofficial changes - like the movement of set pieces and throw-ins, and not retreating 10 yards at set pieces - are eroding further the confidence in refs. It's all really crap.
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Also adding on time at the end to deter time wasting. We had a few weeks of 8-10 minutes added on and now it’s 3 or 4. That Newcastle game was a 6er at least.
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I know refereeing is a thankless task but currently the standard is unacceptable.
If you google who is the PGMOL accountable to that partially explains the issue.
It must change and very quickly.
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What the answer? The Premier League?
I think officials need to stand down more if they are poor. We should also use foreign refs too.
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The problem with some VAR decisions is knowing what the ref stated to them. Because that is what they have to show the ref got wrong for them to send him to a monitor.
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Surely the only thing that matters is getting the correct decision! Obvious errors etc is a load of bollocks.
Get the decision right, every time. Obvious ball out, corner/goalkick, blatant dives could all be dealt with by a quick word from the VAR. It would soon start to improve the overall game.
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If being a referee is a job and the referee trains as a referee then being a VAR is also a job and should be treated as such not just a referee on a day off.
It’s too cozy in the PGMOL
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But that would take ages (the VAR checking everything).
I actually think VAR is a good thing (remember the poor FA cup decisions?) but it needs consistent application. The Ashley Ypu g incident is a classic example where the bloke in the booths disagreed with the original decision, but subjectively, so should have been left as on field. Showing the ref the same thing again didn’t add anything other than to pressure him in to changing his mind.
They also need that automatic offside thing sorted.
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For the Young thing, I think the ref would have stated "Penalty for the pull back by Maguire" which is why I think they called him back to the screens to show Young was going down as that happened. He never mentioned the shirt pull as he hadn't spotted it so they didn't show him that. But as referees they should have seen that on review and left the onfield decision to stand anyway, or properly showed all the incident and not the cherry picked views.
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Wonder if anybody will produce an end of season compendium of PGMOL/VAR's Greatest Shits?
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For the Young thing, I think the ref would have stated "Penalty for the pull back by Maguire" which is why I think they called him back to the screens to show Young was going down as that happened. He never mentioned the shirt pull as he hadn't spotted it so they didn't show him that. But as referees they should have seen that on review and left the onfield decision to stand anyway, or properly showed all the incident and not the cherry picked views.
That would have needed editing Spielberg would have been proud of.
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Surely the only thing that matters is getting the correct decision! Obvious errors etc is a load of bollocks.
Get the decision right, every time. Obvious ball out, corner/goalkick, blatant dives could all be dealt with by a quick word from the VAR. It would soon start to improve the overall game.
Exactly, let the people who get 4-5 angles and multiple replays make decisions. There's an argument it slows the game down but our first goal yesterday is a perfect example of why it's bollocks. That should've taken a few seconds to confirm but, because the goal was disallowed on the field, they had to jump through hoops checking everything before awarding it.
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For the Young thing, I think the ref would have stated "Penalty for the pull back by Maguire" which is why I think they called him back to the screens to show Young was going down as that happened. He never mentioned the shirt pull as he hadn't spotted it so they didn't show him that. But as referees they should have seen that on review and left the onfield decision to stand anyway, or properly showed all the incident and not the cherry picked views.
That would have needed editing Spielberg would have been proud of.
On what they showed the ref? Not really as they only showed him the camera angles which didn't show the initial shirt pull, but the Maguire pull back / Young collapse. The TV studios see the footage the ref is shown, plus they also had the camera on him and the screen.
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So Young's shirt was being pulled to stop him falling over?
How thoughtful and kind of the United defenders.
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What the answer? The Premier League?
I think officials need to stand down more if they are poor. We should also use foreign refs too.
If anything the foreign refs are even worse based on standards in the Champions and Conference League we've seen
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I disagree but there you go.
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The Juventus one was the biggest cheat all season.
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The Juventus one was the biggest cheat all season.
Serves Juventus right for being dumped out of the Champions League!
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Yep, I wasn't shedding any tears, even though it probably helps Arsenal.
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Using foreign refs is defeating the object for me - we need to make ours better and hold PGMOL to account for the fact they haven’t improved particularly whilst they have been able to hide behind the implementation of VAR.
Getting the correct decision is obviously the end goal but very little beyond offsides and goal line tech has the ability to be factual so the process to judge subjective decisions has to be clear and everyone has to have confidence in the competence of those making those subjective calls…that is what is lacking.
Nonsense like the audio of the Duran red shows there is still so far for them to come to even be adequate let alone correct…
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My main concern is that they defend the indefensible rather than holding their hands up from time to time.
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It has many flaws but I do think VAR has evened up the playing field on biased decisions in favour of the usual suspects. I know it doesn't seem like that at times but it definitely has in my opinion.
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How often do you see a ball sail out of play and within a micro second VAR could say GK or Corner, the ball hasn't even landed but the ref can indicate the correct outcome! Same with blatant dives they could soon be stamped out following a couple of Yellow/Red cards.
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
Gallagher looks like a hedgehog as there's so many splinters sticking out of his arse, he's not sitting on the fence there he's grinding it.
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The key word Dermot used there is ‘probably’
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Warnock is the only one worth watching on that show. Sue Smith is pleasant but inoffensive and just reminds me of that Fast Show bloke who agrees with everybody. Gallagher’s a prick.
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
If you're half a yard in front of the defender you're not reaching back to grab him and bring him closer. Do these gimps have a brain between them?
Fucking arse biscuits the lot of it.
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Warnock is the only one worth watching on that show. Sue Smith is pleasant but inoffensive and just reminds me of that Fast Show bloke who agrees with everybody. Gallagher’s a prick.
Sue Smith was the first one to say it was a penalty.
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Just been watching the Young explanation and as mentioned, it seems that VAR were calling the ref back for the foul called on Maguire as the clear error, without even thinking he missed the initial shirt pull, which is a clear error.
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
If you're half a yard in front of the defender you're not reaching back to grab him and bring him closer. Do these gimps have a brain between them?
Fucking arse biscuits the lot of it.
It is the lamest of excuses for a supposedly top Premier referee. Besides, it's a clear case of an obvious error by the ref so why didn't VAR spend another minute on the incident? You can be sure if it was the other way round they'd have given it far more time.
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Just been watching the Young explanation and as mentioned, it seems that VAR were calling the ref back for the foul called on Maguire as the clear error, without even thinking he missed the initial shirt pull, which is a clear error.
Without hearing the comms it's difficult to know what he actually gave the penalty for. If he did miss the shirt pulling surely they should be showing him the footage that shows it. Unless as I suspect they were just going through the motions because ultimately they didn't want the penalty to stand.
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Comms when released will be more obvious but Sky pointed out the VAR Twitter account specifically mentioned the foul by MAGUIRE and all visuals were just on the Maguire contact.
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Comms when released will be more obvious but Sky pointed out the VAR Twitter account specifically mentioned the foul by MAGUIRE and all visuals were just on the Maguire contact.
So they decided to ignore the actual reason to give a penalty in the first place. An absolute cop out.
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Comms when released will be more obvious but Sky pointed out the VAR Twitter account specifically mentioned the foul by MAGUIRE and all visuals were just on the Maguire contact.
So they decided to ignore the actual reason to give a penalty in the first place. An absolute cop out.
Even Dermot agrees that they cocked up massively by just looking at what the ref called the penalty on without also stating he shirt pull. NOW the ref might have stated he saw the shirt pull and didn't think that was a foul but Maguire's contact was, which is why the comms being released is needed.
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Its a case of "how can we spin this to make us look less bad".
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It doesn't matter who replaces Dermot Gallagher they would never come out and openly admit the referee/VAR was wrong. It's a closed shop and they circle the wagons. Dermot Gallagher is a nice bloke btw.
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It's rare for any of these shows to criticise anyone properly.
The whole VAR thing is bollocks.
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Thing I find frustrating is all the stats they give on whether VAR made the correct decision is all bollocks and massively skews the figures they use to assess how well it’s doing.
Two BIG potentially match defining moments that won’t go down as errors on their reporting.
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It doesn't matter who replaces Dermot Gallagher they would never come out and openly admit the referee/VAR was wrong. It's a closed shop and they circle the wagons. Dermot Gallagher is a nice bloke btw.
I agree with you that Dermot is a nice guy but how the hell does a professional referee - albeit a former referee - and not see the clear holding and pull back? It's incredulous that he questions - is it enough? Of course it fucking is!
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It doesn't matter who replaces Dermot Gallagher they would never come out and openly admit the referee/VAR was wrong. It's a closed shop and they circle the wagons. Dermot Gallagher is a nice bloke btw.
I agree with you that Dermot is a nice guy but how the hell does a professional referee - albeit a former referee - and not see the clear holding and pull back? It's incredulous that he questions - is it enough? Of course it fucking is!
He does see it, it's just as I alluded to, he isn't going to rock the boat. I think it's possible that I imagined it but felt it was tongue in cheek and he was having trouble keeping a straight face.
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Ref Watch:
INCIDENT: In Aston Villa's win over Brentford, Thomas Frank felt his side should have had at least one penalty.
The first on Kevin Schade he was most convinced about, with Matty Cash and Axel Disasi involved.
There was then another challenge from Disasi on Schade later in the game, which also went unpunished.
Dermot Gallagher says: Because Cash heads the ball [for the first incident], the referee gives a corner. He says he's cleared the ball.
When the second Villa player comes in, he thinks he's slipped into him, and Cash clearly heads the ball out for a corner. He does that before the collision [from Disasi].
"Disasi is lucky [for the second foul] because it's really clumsy.
"Once the forward gets in front, he's very clever. He's gotten across the defender and has the ascendancy. The defender has to back off."
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Ref for Aston Villa vs Club Brugge Daniel Siebert from Germany
15 Yellow Cards in 4 Champions League matches this season.
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Dermot Gallagher is fucking mental. The over analysed free kick Diving Rat Face scored against Arsenal where the wall was 11.2 yards (who cares), he backed the ref by saying something like '' to be fair the rules only say the wall has to be a minimum 10 yards, it can be any distance the ref wants''. What a load of shit.
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Dermot Gallagher would defend Adolf Hitler if he found out he'd ever been linesman at a Bavarian League Division Three match.
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All i know is i'll be surprised if there is even one paying spectator who thinks VAR has improved the game as a spectacle. Referees have been completely undermined by it. At one time we moaned about a decision and then moved on - now the fall-out rumbles on for weeks.
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Dermot Gallagher is fucking mental. The over analysed free kick Diving Rat Face scored against Arsenal where the wall was 11.2 yards (who cares), he backed the ref by saying something like '' to be fair the rules only say the wall has to be a minimum 10 yards, it can be any distance the ref wants''. What a load of shit.
Way too much has been made of the wall being slightly too far back in my opinion.
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Ref Watch:
INCIDENT: In Aston Villa's win over Brentford, Thomas Frank felt his side should have had at least one penalty.
The first on Kevin Schade he was most convinced about, with Matty Cash and Axel Disasi involved.
There was then another challenge from Disasi on Schade later in the game, which also went unpunished.
Dermot Gallagher says: Because Cash heads the ball [for the first incident], the referee gives a corner. He says he's cleared the ball.
When the second Villa player comes in, he thinks he's slipped into him, and Cash clearly heads the ball out for a corner. He does that before the collision [from Disasi].
"Disasi is lucky [for the second foul] because it's really clumsy.
"Once the forward gets in front, he's very clever. He's gotten across the defender and has the ascendancy. The defender has to back off."
So the twat still won't drop his mate in it
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Whilst I agree he will defend refs decisions, isn't he stating the ref got the second one wrong? And Cash saved the first one from being one.
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Official for Preston:
Referee: Christopher Kavanagh
VAR: Tim Robinson
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In Spain Liga F plans to introduce Football Video Support (FVS) starting next season. FVS allows the head coach to make the referee review major decisions(goals, offsides, penalties, mistaken identity). Teams are allowed 2 wrong challenges per match.
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In Spain Liga F plans to introduce Football Video Support (FVS) starting next season. FVS allows the head coach to make the referee review major decisions(goals, offsides, penalties, mistaken identity). Teams are allowed 2 wrong challenges per match.
Sounds similar to the system in American Football, except that Real Madrid are allowed 5 wrong challenges per match.
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Whilst not a bad idea, unfortunately it will only slow the game down more for such incidents.
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Not necessarily. At the moment nearly every goal and quite a few other incidents are checked. You could easily have five or six checks per game. Under this system you might have four. Will be interesting to see how it works, it's pretty much in line with how I always thought VAR should be done.
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Not necessarily. At the moment nearly every goal and quite a few other incidents are checked. You could easily have five or six checks per game. Under this system you might have four. Will be interesting to see how it works, it's pretty much in line with how I always thought VAR should be done.
How good an idea this is relies heavily on how they adapt the idea of "umpire's call" into it.
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V Brighton Official watch
Referee: Stuart Attwell. VAR: Matt Donohue.
Atwell is from Warwickshire
He’s ref twice this season 3-0 defeat to chelsea and the 2-2 v Ipswich
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Not just Atwell but who’s matt Donohue on VAR why no penalty and now a Clear hand ball lengthy check .
At least some balancing after dismissing the pen first half.
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Atwell getting his yellow card quota in.
How has this ref booked 3 villa players?! ...
The conventional way. Held up a yellow card and then wrote their names down.
tbf all 3 were deserved .
However if asking why Brighton didn’t receive more bookings - am much agreements.
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Just watching the Scouse derby plus our match to me underlines the standard is getting worse. It desperately needs addressing.
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Just watching the Scouse derby plus our match to me underlines the standard is getting worse. It desperately needs addressing.
Seems like the on field and off field referees are back second guessing one another. That Everton one is assault, thug shouldnt be playing again this season. That clown Atwell is looking right at Ramsey's one tonight, shouldnt even need the guy in the caravan to help him out.
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All time low. There is no common sense involved. It's a series of back coverings going on and interpretations of the rules to cover arses. No one is going to get better until they start admitting fault.
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That Tarkowski tackle is horrendous.
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Reminded me of Gerrard's tackle on George Boateng back in 2001.
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It seems to me the directive is to go with the on field decision rather than get the decision right. If the ref gives the penalty last night, there's no chance it's overturned. If they're going to use technology, at least get the decision right.
Macalister is very lucky his leg wasn't broken. How VAR looked at that & said no red card is staggering.
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Wasn't Tarkowski part of the thug brothers partnership at Cloggers Burnley under shit house Dyche? Him and Mee chopping people down constantly and getting away with it.
He should have a 3 game ban. An Atwell shouldn't be allowed to ref us anymore, he hates us as much as we hate him.
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Wasn't Tarkowski part of the thug brothers partnership at Cloggers Burnley under shit house Dyche? Him and Mee chopping people down constantly and getting away with it.
He should have a 3 game ban. An Atwell shouldn't be allowed to ref us anymore, he hates us as much as we hate him.
Yep, seems like it's only Dyche-adjacent players that still make this kind of challenge, it's no coincidence.
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Ever since the introduction of VAR we have seen endless excuses, chicanery, obfuscating, rule changes, and downright lying in order to justify what was utterly flawed as an idea, never mind it's implementation.
The excuse last night for the challenge on JJ was that there "wasn't enough contact". WTF? How do you measure how much is enough? They made the decision in order to protect the ref and for no other reason. Before the end of the season you will see a Pen where the contact is less. Add this to "phase of play" where no-one really knows when they start or finish, interfering or not (Liverpool's goal last night), the handball rule etc etc.
All hugely subjective so impossible to be consistent.
I can accept a Ref making a mistake, what I can't accept is a third party doubling down on the mistake and that is one of the myriad problems with VAR.
It. Doesn't. Work.
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The trouble is the ref told VAR he was booking him for the follow-through after getting loads on the ball initially. With the directive of only sending someone to the screens on a clear and obvious error, how do they send him there to review when he states he saw the follow-through and booked him?
Take last night for example, Atwell told them he had seen both the Brighton and Villa pen appeals and they didn't see anything to state a clear error. However he never mentioned Mitoma's handball in the goal so they could send him for that.
But surely all the ex-footballers who stated it was alright for Lewis-Skelly to go in studs high on the ankle/shin when he is no where near the ball should be fine with the tackle last night only getting a yellow.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Think there was a couple, they looked very lucky to win last night.
We need to be giving them a right good hiding we they visit us.
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The reffing and VAR was a total mess last night - added to the lack of additional time at the end of the first half too... it continues to suck the life out of the game.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Got away with what? Most of the coverage is about Tonali's fluke that he definitely meant.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Got away with what? Most of the coverage is about Tonali's fluke that he definitely meant.
Yeah he said it was 70% cross in his post match interview. So he definitely meant to fluke it.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Got away with what? Most of the coverage is about Tonali's fluke that he definitely meant.
There was a clear penalty for Brentford ignored in the second half, was similar to the one we got on Sunday.
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Matt Donohoe - the VAR regf last night is a Select Group 2 ref, which might explain a lot.
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Matt Donohoe - the VAR regf last night is a Select Group 2 ref, which might explain a lot.
TBH the issue last night wasn’t VAR it was Atwell being an utter clown.
On the penalty VAR asked him to take another look and he wouldn’t change his decision.
On the handball, Atwell missed the handball by Mitoma but VAR spotted it and bought him to check.
On the Ramsey handball, VAR spotted that it had hit Ramsey thigh/stomach before his arm.
On Asensio’s goal he determined that the Watkins/Wieff clash was 6 of one half a dozen of the other and that Watkins wasn’t offside and interfering with play.
I think VAR did its job well last night, it helped ensure Atwell didn’t completely ruin the match.
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
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It's the worst it's ever been
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Matt Donohoe - the VAR regf last night is a Select Group 2 ref, which might explain a lot.
TBH the issue last night wasn’t VAR it was Atwell being an utter clown.
On the penalty VAR asked him to take another look and he wouldn’t change his decision.
On the handball, Atwell missed the handball by Mitoma but VAR spotted it and bought him to check.
On the Ramsey handball, VAR spotted that it had hit Ramsey thigh/stomach before his arm.
On Asensio’s goal he determined that the Watkins/Wieff clash was 6 of one half a dozen of the other and that Watkins wasn’t offside and interfering with play.
I think VAR did its job well last night, it helped ensure Atwell didn’t completely ruin the match.
Atwell didn't call most of those on the pitch either so not sure why VAR is getting the credit and Atwell none.
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
Same way he didn't give in to their penalty shout, he didn't think there was enough contact apparently and VAR agreed with him.
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
Same way he didn't give in to their penalty shout, he didn't think there was enough contact apparently and VAR agreed with him.
Well obviously that's what he thought due to the outcome but I mean how does he not think there's enough contact? He took both legs. He had a clear view. Sunday league refs everywhere would give it without a second thought, from 50 yards further away.
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One of those. I do wonder on when denying that, the fact he had already denied a shout the other end being a factor or not. It shouldn't be but I expect it does affect some decisions.
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This new rule where they keep the referees decision 9 times out of 10 is a farce as there is literally no need for VAR. How Atwell didn't give a penalty last night is beyond me but for the VAR to go with the onfield decision is even more baffling. Think back to the first day of the season at West Ham when Cash won the ball but the ref gave a penalty. A decision that was upheld for whatever reason. Just have refs give the decision and go with it.
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Directives are clearly coming from the top so it’s about time Webb’s position was under some scrutiny…the way they implement the rules, the way they use VAR and the lack of honesty when covering the mistakes is no better under Webb than it was under Riley.
I was very firmly in the bin VAR camp 12 months ago however I have now switched to needing it due to the incompetence of the on field refs & the players/benches blatantly cheating.
VAR needs to be used consistently by trained VAR operatives not referee mates, it needs to be transparent ie live streaming the ref link and 100% needs to be conveyed to paying customers properly…
What also has to be remembered is that VAR masks the real problem which is that the standard of the on field officials has at best stagnated but in reality has got worse under Webbs reign IMHO
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
Same way he didn't give in to their penalty shout, he didn't think there was enough contact apparently and VAR agreed with him.
Well obviously that's what he thought due to the outcome but I mean how does he not think there's enough contact? He took both legs. He had a clear view. Sunday league refs everywhere would give it without a second thought, from 50 yards further away.
Clearly there must be some sensor in player's boots that can transmit the amount of force applied to boots and coupled with the motion of the forward player being fouled a message is sent to Atwell's ear piece saying you're a ******* idiot if you think that isn't a penalty. Atwell sticks by his guns because he's in charge and he has the power.
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What frustrates me is the amount of time it took to just then have the ref not look at it. Just send the ref over quicker with decisions like that. I doubt it will last much longer than it already does.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
Me neither. There are times where there isn't enough contact, or the attacker has dangled his leg and initiated the contact (which I hate), but this very clearly wasn't that.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
Me neither. There are times where there isn't enough contact, or the attacker has dangled his leg and initiated the contact (which I hate), but this very clearly wasn't that.
Exactly.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
Agree, it was very clearly a penalty.
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I’ve said enough times that Attwell hates us. Somebody always sneers at it but look what transpired every time. Although it is amusing to see those that sneer then criticise the refereeing after the game.
There’s no way a Warwickshire ref should ref a Warwickshire Club full stop. It didn’t used to happen.
I think for our penalty his excuse was simulation with the way JJ went down. If that was the case he should have booked him.
As it is the not enough contact excuse basically means we know there was a foul but we’re going to claim it wasn’t impactful enough. That’s just nonsense and never been part of football.
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That Tarkowski tackle is horrendous.
Apparently he has had something like 63 yellow cards in the Premier League but no reds?
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I’ve said enough times that Attwell hates us. Somebody always sneers at it but look what transpired every time. Although it is amusing to see those that sneer then criticise the refereeing after the game.
There’s no way a Warwickshire ref should ref a Warwickshire Club full stop. It didn’t used to happen.
I think for our penalty his excuse was simulation with the way JJ went down. If that was the case he should have booked him.
As it is the not enough contact excuse basically means we know there was a foul but we’re going to claim it wasn’t impactful enough. That’s just nonsense and never been part of football.
I don't think he hates us, I just think he's shit.
If he genuinely hated us he could have given them two penalties and allowed their goal and it wouldn't have been particularly controversial or out of line with other decisions given in other games.
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I’ve said enough times that Attwell hates us. Somebody always sneers at it but look what transpired every time. Although it is amusing to see those that sneer then criticise the refereeing after the game.
There’s no way a Warwickshire ref should ref a Warwickshire Club full stop. It didn’t used to happen.
I think for our penalty his excuse was simulation with the way JJ went down. If that was the case he should have booked him.
As it is the not enough contact excuse basically means we know there was a foul but we’re going to claim it wasn’t impactful enough. That’s just nonsense and never been part of football.
Well he could have easily gave the penalty for their shout which VAR would have backed up. And he could have stated there was not enough of a handball to overturn their goal which again was in his power, or gave the foul against Watkins in the build-up for the second. So no we don't think he specifically hates us. People are criticising him as shit ref, but that is also the criticism when he refs ManU v Brighton, or Juventus v Real then when he refs us.
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Hope we have a strong ref who will keep an eye on all the off the ball stuff. Horrid team are Forest
Referee: Simon Hooper.
VAR: Michael Oliver.
Imagine being less VAR delays with a more experienced official on VAR than brighton match.
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That Tarkowski tackle is horrendous.
Apparently he has had something like 63 yellow cards in the Premier League but no reds?
I've just seen that one and that is a horrific tackle a 100% red all day long. Both decisions last night need investigating. Of course the Liverpool one will get more focus.
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BBC Live text thingy has PGMOL already stating the decision was a mistake in the Scouse Derby. Ours will just be swept under although might be in the Mic'd up thing when it next gets produced.
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In 19 Prem games Simon Hooper hasn’t officiated one of our matches all season.
Yellow 94 Red 2 5.05 cards/game
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Another useless twat.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/czj438xxkg9o
Unless it is Atwell in which case he will still book the captain for approaching them.
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https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jul/30/evolution-referees-speed-tests-data-psychologists-superfoods-pgmo?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Getting their excuses in early.
Being as fit as a fiddle counts for nothing if they can't get the basics right - and I'm looking at you, Thomas Bramhall.
One suggestion - instead of hiding behind glib formulaic statements, why doesn't PGMOL put someone up the explain some of the more "controversial" decisions?
Yonks ago, I went away to Oakwell on my own and sat in the main stand. I slagged off a decision and the bloke sitting beside me introduced himself as a local league referee and then proceeded to take me through the game from the perspective of the ref, explaining why the ref had made decisions that didn't make sense to me.
An eye opener to say the least.
A 2-3 minute "The ref explains" slot on MOTD would, I'm sure be really helpful in educating fans about the way games are reffed.
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Explaining decisions in the ground and more detailed post match, would do a lot rebuild trust.
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Webb all last season was doing transparancy videos and releasing Audio of all contentious decisions with either explanations or holding up hands on mistakes. Apparently though the transparency stops for the last two rounds of matches as nothing was ever released for the Manu one but the tweet on the day.
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As expected that horrendous mistake was swept under the carpet.
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As expected that horrendous £100m mistake was swept under the carpet.
FTFY
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By everyone, including ourselves officially. You would have thought it would have been pushed to get the PGMOL call on whether a ref should blow for a foul when it looks like a goal could be scored or leave it and then review it. But no, season is over so nothing more needs to be done including "being transparent".