Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on March 02, 2024, 10:34:03 PM
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Pretty poor all round for me.
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Someone like Dave Shelley will probably know more but it has always felt to me the refs that make it to the top levels are the ones that do what they are told and don't use any intelligence to interpret what they see.
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I wonder if there is going to more of this from clubs :
Nottingham Forest appointed Mark Clattenburg as a referee analyst; the 48-year-old will be available for advice should Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo want to consult him on specific issues.
What do people make of that? And if Villa had a refereeing analyst?
Are they trying to gain some sort of advantage. If a ref analyst is on their side, he may be friendly with officials pre-match, or conversely, the actual official for a match may make a point to get one over the analyst.
In this case they have an actual representative who knows the law of the game to plead their case.
Referees' analyst Mark Clattenburg to argue Nottingham Forest's case to PGMOL after being left shocked by Paul Tierney's decision to allow Darwin Nunez's late winner for Liverpool to stand
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I see Tierney has been suspended from reffing this weekend. I assume this is down to the blunder he made over a single issue at the City Ground.
Meanwhile, Oliver is presumably free to resume his job after the serial shit-show that was his performance last Saturday evening.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
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I see Tierney has been suspended from reffing this weekend. I assume this is down to the blunder he made over a single issue at the City Ground.
Meanwhile, Oliver is presumably free to resume his job after the serial shit-show that was his performance last Saturday evening.
Tierney literally didn’t apply the rules correctly. Oliver made subjective decisions we didn’t agree with. Big difference.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
That's done to protect the officials and nothing else, having a week off doesn't improve their skill set but takes the heat out of a situation.
Another awful by product of VAR is the sudden expectation that things would improve when anyone could see it would only pile more pressure on Refs when subjective decisions come up. The ref made a mistake on Saturday but when St Jurgen is stood on the touchline, venerated at every turn, anyone would be nervous about making decisions wouldn't they? ****** like Klopp and Arteta, Wenger and Colin Wanker back in the day are bullies and get away with it all the time, with the full backing of the media amplifying their comments.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
That's done to protect the officials and nothing else, having a week off doesn't improve their skill set but takes the heat out of a situation.
Another awful by product of VAR is the sudden expectation that things would improve when anyone could see it would only pile more pressure on Refs when subjective decisions come up. The ref made a mistake on Saturday but when St Jurgen is stood on the touchline, venerated at every turn, anyone would be nervous about making decisions wouldn't they? ****** like Klopp and Arteta, Wenger and Colin Wanker back in the day are bullies and get away with it all the time, with the full backing of the media amplifying their comments.
And it was the same referee Klopp very publicly accused of “having a problem” with Liverpool last season.
On Klopp how he escaped punishment (or even widespread condemnation) for squaring up to the fourth official last year escapes me. Mourinho should have been banned for a period after confronting Anthony Taylor after the Europa league final too. Although H+V favourite Troy Deeney only got a four match ban for saying to a fourth official : "If you weren't a referee, I would punch your f***ing head in."
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I think the standard of refereeing isn't close to being as good as it should be, but also think that there's an exaggeration as to how bad it is. It would be interesting to see a detailed statistical analysis of refereeing decisions to get the full picture.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
And he hasn't even been stood down completely, he's been put on VAR duty. It's just a waste of time.
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Referee’s being “stood down” for a weekend due to a bad performance is just counterproductive.
And he hasn't even been stood down completely, he's been put on VAR duty. It's just a waste of time.
Yep. "You've made a calamitous decision that could affect both the title race and the relegation battle. Here, have a sit down and check what the other refs are doing at a VAR monitor."
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Someone like Dave Shelley will probably know more but it has always felt to me the refs that make it to the top levels are the ones that do what they are told and don't use any intelligence to interpret what they see.
Once a referee makes it to the top, my opinion is that most of them are running scared and afraid to have the courage of their own convictions. VAR has a lot to answer for in that respect which we see regularly. Also, look at the ages of the referees today, they are a lot younger than they used to be which, is no bad thing. Go back a bit and they were nearly always in their forties when they got to the top plus they were nearly all in employment of one sort of another, now it's a career. I could go on forever about this but I've got to take the missus for an eye test which is somewhat appropriate seeing as how we're discussing referees.
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It's got worse since it became a 'career', they've got everything to lose if they upset the wrong people.
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There's so much scrutiny now, that you can tell the officials are relying on VAR to dig them out of a hole. The problem is that VAR are their mates and won't embarrass them.
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It's been poor this season.
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The standard is awful and the problem now is that it is so awful its difficult to believe there isn't some level of corruption involved.
The PGMOL set up is a racket where they mark their own homework.
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The standard is awful and the problem now is that it is so awful its difficult to believe there isn't some level of corruption involved.
The PGMOL set up is a racket where they mark their own homework.
Suspect Michael Oliver gave himself 10/10 after Saturday's match?
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I usually hate blaming refs primarily because it is a thankless task and players and coaching staff do themselves no favours.
That said Oliver was incredibly inept on Saturday - watching objectively it looked somewhat crooked.
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The standard is awful and the problem now is that it is so awful its difficult to believe there isn't some level of corruption involved.
The PGMOL set up is a racket where they mark their own homework.
I wouldn't say awful. Its not as good as it should be by any means but until we get a detailed statistical analysis it's difficult to say definitively
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Was he scheduled for a match this weekend and they removed him, or is it just an assumption he was removed, because refs don't ref every weekend.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
I'd go one step further and say the way they apply the laws of the game differs in the same match, you can't call a foul and a card against a player from one team and then ignore the same infringement by a player of the opposite team - this is what I witnessed against Luton, mostly when Ollie was being manhandled all over the place.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
I'd go one step further and say the way they apply the laws of the game differs in the same match, you can't call a foul and a card against a player from one team and then ignore the same infringement by a player of the opposite team - this is what I witnessed against Luton, mostly when Ollie was being manhandled all over the place.
They are very inconsistent. People around me at the Villa are confused about the laws of the game now. One minute they’re booking people for taking too long over a throw in or standing in front of a free kick, the next they aren’t.
The handball law is all over the place and it depends on which way the wind is blowing if they award a penalty. The worst one is the flag going up late. I’ve noticed that sometimes it doesn’t go up late and they flag straight away so it’s just very confusing.
Then you’ve got VAR on top of that just to add to the fun.
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Yep, consistency is key, whether you like a rule or not if it's applied fairly you get used to it but when the same incident can be treated completely differently across games or even within a game it's impossible for fans, coahces and players to know what to expect.
On top of that I think the game has a problem with the amount of yellow cards that are given. They are so frequent and often so soft that they become meaningless and teams stacking up 3-4 per game is fairly normal.
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There's so much scrutiny now, that you can tell the officials are relying on VAR to dig them out of a hole. The problem is that VAR are their mates and won't embarrass them.
Well they did the lino at Luton on Saturday - thank fuck
As for general referering - there is without doubt unconscious bias at play and it is not new. In the days when Liv Liverpool won everything they did it with an alarming number of penalties, Kop end when they needed them. Then of course the redfacedcnut during the 90's encouraging his spit laden yobs to get into refs faces culminating in Jose causing a possible criminal attack in an airport.
I find grovelling apologies after a monumental cock up embarrassing and should only be offered with the game to be replayed - a public "sorry" does not recover 3pts or next round of a cup
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The worst one is the flag going up late. I’ve noticed that sometimes it doesn’t go up late and they flag straight away so it’s just very confusing.
If that rule was taken away then Watkins would of stopped playing, as flag went up immediately, and buried as he did.
The issue was as always - i could see from my TV and at an angle and he was clearly onside so why it took that long to check i just dont know
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I usually hate blaming refs primarily because it is a thankless task and players and coaching staff do themselves no favours.
That said Oliver was incredibly inept on Saturday - watching objectively it looked somewhat crooked.
How a team like Luton, who amassed 45% of the possession, could accrue 19 fouls against over 90 minutes is befuddling. That said, of course some were fouls.. but the standard of what Oliver was calling against Villa wasn't being applied to Luton. We couldn't even get him to put his whistle to his mouth to even consider the foul. It was strange, and I truly believe he was out there to make the Saturday night match interesting.
The refereeing has been poor, borderline very poor this season. A lot of new faces in important positions and some just don't seem up for it. Surprisingly, the one's who have been doing it for years and have become household names, seem to be regressing. Whether its due to rule interpretations they've been instructed to enforce or the safety net a VAR, it's unacceptable and its damaging the game.
I would like to see something like the Two-Minute Report that the NBA uses, to discuss and observe decisions made in important moments. I have no qualms when referees are told to step back and are given a week off, or put behind the VAR screen for a weekend to seemingly reprimand them. We can't have PGMOL "protecting their own" because their interests aren't universal.. while seeking a better/improved game should be everyone's. We don't need defense attorneys, we need an unbiased observation to improve all things rule enforcement. They were so worried about time wasting in the summer and applying those rules early on this season, that they lost focus on the larger job at hand.
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It’s a tough job and often a thankless one because one set of players/supporters will more than often be angry with them.
Saying that, the standard of refereeing is at a low ebb and the way they apply the laws of the game differ from game to game. There’s no consistency from one ref to another and VAR has made it worse. I think they are scared to make decisions and even more so to challenge VAR when they’re sent to the screen.
Maybe they’re scared to lose their job now it’s become a profession but whatever it is the standards are very poor. It would help if VAR picked out blatant diving during a game and punished players. Maybe then players would think again about throwing themselves to the floor and rolling over which would make refereeing easier.
Just get rid of VAR and see how it goes.
I'd go one step further and say the way they apply the laws of the game differs in the same match, you can't call a foul and a card against a player from one team and then ignore the same infringement by a player of the opposite team - this is what I witnessed against Luton, mostly when Ollie was being manhandled all over the place.
I said this on the post match thread but got shot down. Ollie was battered by them with Mengi and Burke taking it in turns to clatter into the back of him. And Chong must think he's still at OT where you win fouls every time you throw yourself to the ground and have a tantrum. Oliver fell for it time after time. There were some truly awful decisions and the one for their second goal was a joke. He had hold of Konsas arm the whole time then won the foul by flinging his arms around. We won and I'm over it but refereeing like that has no place in elite football. Totally inept.
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The worst one is the flag going up late. I’ve noticed that sometimes it doesn’t go up late and they flag straight away so it’s just very confusing.
If that rule was taken away then Watkins would of stopped playing, as flag went up immediately, and buried as he did.
The issue was as always - i could see from my TV and at an angle and he was clearly onside so why it took that long to check i just dont know
The late flag is annoying when it is so obvious. Also we have incurred injuries as a result of playing on.
Then there are times where the flag doesn't go up at all when it should and then the ball goes out for a corner.
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Then there are times where the flag doesn't go up at all when it should and then the ball goes out for a corner.
That is the linesman thinking the play isn't offside*. If he felt it was, he would then flag instead of giving the corner.
*(Or as they are in contact with the ref during play, the linesman stated potential offside for number 10, the ref could always state number 10 didn't move for the ball so he doesn't think it was offside and over rule him).
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All season Ollie has had defenders going through the back of him with impunity away from Villa Park, compare and contrast with Lord Saint Harry formerly of Tottinghams and England and how breathing the same air as him is a cautionable offence.
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Some historic news the Official today in Palace V Man Utd is going to wear a head camera and will be the introduction of RefCam
Give us plenty of insight and is a taster of what's to come in the Premier League with RefCam.
Standard of Refereeing insight !
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Maybe they could focus on getting more decisions right before they start playing with their shiny new toys?
Tw*ts!
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However poor we think the refereeing is in the Prem the standard of referee in the Conference League is a whole new level of sh!t
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I am ref when our U9 team play in training, and I'm shit. I even forget the bloody score at times.
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Some historic news the Official today in Palace V Man Utd is going to wear a head camera and will be the introduction of RefCam
Give us plenty of insight and is a taster of what's to come in the Premier League with RefCam.
Standard of Refereeing insight !
I see Ratboy was "injured". Coincidence?
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
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VAR isn’t the problem…it’s the standard of the officials whether they are on the pitch or watching on a screen from multiple angles.
There are many examples, but I’ll use one from this weekend just gone…
Penalty awarded to Arsenal against Bournemouth. Goalkeeper comes out to challenge Havertz, misses the ball but also clearly has no intention of playing the man…Harvertz steps over the keeper with his right leg but intentionally drags his left leg in to the keepers leg (which is flat on the pitch) whilst already in the process of going down. You could not get a clearer example of simulation (ie cheating) yet between both the on field referee and VAR official, they decided it was a penalty.
There are lots of things wrong with the game we love but when incorrect decisions or inconsistent decisions are made game to game, then you have to question what the actual fuck is going on.
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KRS that is exactly how I saw it .Thought VAR would say no penalty. Can't imagine why I thought they would get it right.
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
I said something similar yesterday but I can't remember the refs being so poor. I've never been one to hammer refs but these last two, three seasons they've been a disgrace. Taylor, Attwell and Michael fuckin' Oliver are the worst I've seen yet all three have FIFA badges.
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I thought the first one Man City got at the weekend was ridiculous.
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Nice to see we have a ref previously accused of match fixing on Thursday. Wonderful.
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
I would argue that 6-7 games a week live on TV with 20 cameras around the ground and instant replays of all instances has been the cause of the questioning of standards of refereeing. VAR was just the natural progression of that. Before then you were lucky to see one game live a week and no way could you watch anything else live but had to rely on a 3 minutes of highlights (if that) unless you were the featured Saturday game. You have also got the game being played at a considerably faster pace and a lot more simulation and gamesmanship from the players. People remember Franny Lee diving because it was rare at the time.
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At no stage in the history of the game - certainly since i've been going to games which is 1970-ish - has the standard of officiating at games been so controversial. VAR has totally undermined on-the-field officialdom. Basically, they fucked up but they wont admit it.
I would argue that 6-7 games a week live on TV with 20 cameras around the ground and instant replays of all instances has been the cause of the questioning of standards of refereeing. VAR was just the natural progression of that. Before then you were lucky to see one game live a week and no way could you watch anything else live but had to rely on a 3 minutes of highlights (if that) unless you were the featured Saturday game. You have also got the game being played at a considerably faster pace and a lot more simulation and gamesmanship from the players. People remember Franny Lee diving because it was rare at the time.
It wasn’t, he did it every week😊
I also remember him pushing a cross in with his hand to score and then holding his face, implying the ball had gone in off his bugle. I think he was spotted by the ref.
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VAR isn’t the problem…it’s the standard of the officials whether they are on the pitch or watching on a screen from multiple angles.
There are many examples, but I’ll use one from this weekend just gone…
Penalty awarded to Arsenal against Bournemouth. Goalkeeper comes out to challenge Havertz, misses the ball but also clearly has no intention of playing the man…Harvertz steps over the keeper with his right leg but intentionally drags his left leg in to the keepers leg (which is flat on the pitch) whilst already in the process of going down. You could not get a clearer example of simulation (ie cheating) yet between both the on field referee and VAR official, they decided it was a penalty.
There are lots of things wrong with the game we love but when incorrect decisions or inconsistent decisions are made game to game, then you have to question what the actual fuck is going on.
Abysmal from the on field and abysmal by var. For Stockley Park to compound the ref's nonsensical decision stinks massively. Totally incompetent or corrupt? Those are the only viable conclusions from that shit show.
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The problem now is that they have lost all credibility and it is no wonder when you see some horror decisions that people start to believe that these are not just mistakes, particularly when VAR either endorses the error or fails to correct it.
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I thought the first one Man City got at the weekend was ridiculous.
Was that the first penalty? The ref wasn’t going to give it until a Man City player shouted at him. It was two players going for the ball and the attacker still got his shot off. VAR did not intervene.
Then in the same game the ref waved play on when Harland was taken out from the back when he was clean through. The ref was then corrected by VAR.
The ref got both wrong, but what I don’t get, is VAR corrected him on one decision and not the the other.
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Yes the first penalty and yep, the Man City player did manage to get a shot in. Compare that to the third one Forest didn't get when Ashley Young took their player out from behind. It's all a bit farcical.
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The issue is not “refs are shit”. The issue is that a) it is a very hard game to ref, and increasingly hard (faster and more cheating/simulation); b) every decision is scrutinised with replays from many angles so errors and perceived injustices are amplified; and c) the set up of VAR is ambiguous and flawed (there is not an objective truth on many or even most decisions, so the concept of a tv replay to get it right simply doesn’t work for most incidents - it just provides another opinion).
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Szymon Marciniak doing Real v Bayern and Daniele Orsato who officated the Champions League semi yesterday referee are top quality in my book.
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The issue is not “refs are shit”. The issue is that a) it is a very hard game to ref, and increasingly hard (faster and more cheating/simulation); b) every decision is scrutinised with replays from many angles so errors and perceived injustices are amplified; and c) the set up of VAR is ambiguous and flawed (there is not an objective truth on many or even most decisions, so the concept of a tv replay to get it right simply doesn’t work for most incidents - it just provides another opinion).
I think it's more that VAR has given the on-field ref a get-out-of-jail card: the ref can (as happened in our recent Chelsea game) make a non-decision on the pitch knowing that VAR will provide a decision.
Whereas elsewhere, it seems that refs see VAR as a genuine complementary and additional tool that can be deployed in extremis.
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VAR seems to be caught between 'not re-reffing the game' and the old pals' act between refs and the VAR official.
Presumably, the former was why we didn't get that early penalty at Brighton.
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I think that we will get a new standard of referee that can interact with VAR. Also, there will be better communication with the fans on crucial decisions.
Look to the NFL. When I lived in the U.S. I used to say on lots of issues, we'll been doing this sooner or later. Usually, it turned out to be sooner. Doesn't necessarily mean better.
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They rushed the use of VAR and it has caused more Problems than it has solved.
The big issue as I have said many times is there PGMOL, it’s a disgrace that you have a for profit unregulated business officiating football.
There is incompetence, protectionism and a wiff of corruption.
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Yep.
Should have introduced it for line decisions only, monitor how that went and possibly add to it for other things, after consulting coaches and players. Maybe even fans!!
Doesn't help when there appears to be a new handball law every season which VAR has to adjudicate on.
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Ref watch 24/25
Match officials’ club allegiances are to be made public this season - follows the furore over Nottm Forest questioning the integrity of VAR Stuart Attwell. Refs’ chief Howard Webb revealed the move after being questioned by @TimesSport.
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Match 1 season 24/25 Ref Watch
Hartlepool fan Tony Harrington ref today v West Ham
Fourth official: Andrew Kitchen.
VAR: John Brooks. (Doesn't take charge of Leicester Matches )
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How about the fucking twat that gave a penalty to West Ham today?
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Dreadful decision made worse by the fact VAR cleared it too, likely with the remit that they want fewer decisions overturned.
I thought there was probably just as much in the Torres incident which came later, which was also in no way, shape or form a penalty (and rightly was waved off quickly).
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Dog-shit decision.
Made even worse, not only by the fact that VAR bottled saying it was a dog-shit decision, but then more salt rubbed into the wound by these absolute vacuums of any sign of character who just regurgitate the garbage they are told to say making the claim that VAR were right not to overrule the dog-shit decision because we don't want VAR to re-ref games.
Then why the fuck is it being asked to check it in the first place if this one wasn't "clear & obvious" bullshit?!?
Fuck them all...
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We don’t want to re-referee games, 🤔. Scrap it entirely then!
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Bin Var if they’re not going to overturn decisions like that. It’s pointless otherwise
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I thought the referee did ok today. VAR let him down though.
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It doesn't work.
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Guarantee they overturn ones like that later this season. Probably at the usual places.
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So long as they stick to the rule of "not overturning it when it isn't clear and obvious", and don't bottle it as soon as Bruno Fernandes flutters his eyelashes at them, I'm happy enough. Thought the referee was mostly alright otherwise, had a ten minute spell where West Ham seemed to be getting away with a bit, but we will have far worse this season.
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What can you do when you have the main numpty thinking that was a penalty in the first place and the Stockley Park numpty backing him up by saying that Cash wasn't trying to win the ball when he, er, won the ball.
Let AI ref games if these chimps can't. Even with the benefit of multiple camera angles and more tech than NASA.
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Dreadful decision…if that was a pen then kudus kicking through McGinn a few minutes earlier was a pen too.
Like the fact they appear to be letting a few more tackles go though
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Dreadful decision…if that was a pen then kudus kicking through McGinn a few minutes earlier was a pen too.
Like the fact they appear to be letting a few more tackles go though
Totally agree about the poor decisions on pens . How was Ginny not given that!
Cashy unlucky but he’s prone to poor defending and giving away pens
Not so sure on letting tackles go as can be confusing , inconsistent and lead to injury will see how this Harrington officiates next week and see how consistent he is.
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Ref got it wrong. Human error. VAR clearly saw it was wrong and did nothing about it. What is the point?
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Ref got it wrong. Human error. VAR clearly saw it was wrong and did nothing about it. What is the point?
Agree, if VAR is not there to correct ref errors then it has no purpose.
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Redknapp was tying himself in knots trying to defend the decision. His argument was that effectively you won't see VAR overturning many decisions this season. So much for judging each decision on its merits.
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Ref Watch
Crystal Palace midfielder Eberechi Eze said the referee told him he made an error in match v Brentford!
Replays showed there was no real offence but VAR Peter Bankes was unable to intervene as the whistle was blown before the ball hit the net!
Referee Sam Barrott, first Premier League game, first season as a Premier League referee and he's seen a foul and blown the whistle. And blown the whistle before the ball goes into the net
Seems this official is not up to standard at all.
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Genuine question Footy, have you never done something and the instant you did it you realised you had made a huge mistake? I know I have.
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Ref Watch
Crystal Palace midfielder Eberechi Eze said the referee told him he made an error in match v Brentford!
Replays showed there was no real offence but VAR Peter Bankes was unable to intervene as the whistle was blown before the ball hit the net!
Referee Sam Barrott, first Premier League game, first season as a Premier League referee and he's seen a foul and blown the whistle. And blown the whistle before the ball goes into the net
Seems this official is not up to standard at all.
Similar to the Grealish incident a few years ago at Palace. The ref clearly didn’t like Grealish. Grealish got fouled, went over and the ref blew his whistle as the ball fell to Lansbury who tucked the chance and netted. The ref blew up for Grealish diving. It was realised that he’d got the decision wrong but because he blew the whistle had to stick with his decision.
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Genuine question Footy, have you never done something and the instant you did it you realised you had made a huge mistake? I know I have.
Oh well in that respect and context ok I understand however as he’s new and everything isn’t that an indication he may not be ready to officiate .
DS I always respect your views and I think you’re very knowledgeable on officials so that’s great point to make regards human error as it were
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Dermot Gallagher Sky sports Ref Watch
INCIDENT: Referee Tony Harrington awarded West Ham a penalty for a challenge from Matty Cash on Tomas Soucek in the box, despite the Aston Villa defender putting a toe on the ball.
DERMOT SAYS: Cash touched the ball, there's no doubt about that. Does touching the ball negate a foul? No.
I do know a lot of people think this isn't a foul. That's why you have to stick with the referee's call because it's so tight.
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So no assessment on whether Cash was fouled attempting to play the ball, would he have been able to have got the second touch if Soucek hadn’t leant in and tangled with him?
The ballshit stats they come up with on how many VAR decisions that get right and wrong at the end of the season are massively skewed by things like this.
They should exclude all of these new ‘referees calls’ unless they decide to ditch it after it goes against Man U or Liverpool.
Be interesting to see what the stats look like with all the subjective ones taken out from last season.
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the whole system is broken because of incompetence in both on and off the field decisions.
Now we have VAR not interviening as not to undermine the referee. However, the referees haven't had to be sure of their decisions for the past 4 years or so because they had what should have been a fail safe.
There's so much confusion and lack of confidence now.
I watched a EFL game on the weekend and it took out all the uncertaincy in the game - decisions were made there and then and the game just got on with.
it made much more sense.
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If VAR are not getting involved in decisions made by the Ref, is VAR only being used for offsides, and handball for penalties?
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I'm no Cash fan but that decision was a disgrace. I honestly can't take football serious anymore. The only saving grace is we'll give away a blatant penalty over the season and because the standard is so poor that will go our way which also is wrong.
Udogie yesterday blatantly pulls back an attacking Leicester player in a good position and no card. None of it makes any sense!
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The penalty decision, once VAR had seen all 3 angles with the one angle clearly showing Cash getting a toe to the ball they should have just said to the ref’ have a look yourself on the monitor. The issue is then resolved. All this guff about it not being a telling touch or it can still be a foul is nonsense. I’d be much happier if they put their hands up and confessed that they got it wrong.
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If VAR are not getting involved in decisions made by the Ref, is VAR only being used for offsides, and handball for penalties?
No because it was involved to overturn the Everton pen which wasn't a penalty. I honestly think they haven't actually changed much apart from they won't spend too much time looking to see if the decision is an obvious error, which they didn't used to anyway unless the "right" teams were involved.
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Last minute versus Brighton a few seasons Go and Solly March does exactly you the same yet the penalty decision was overturned. When did the laws on the game change?
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What law has been changed? The VAR intervention?
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It was a terrible decision. A player CAN foul another player despite winning the ball, but you rarely see it, and when you do it's usually a two footed horror challenge where one foot happens to make contact with the ball and the other crunches into the opponent's leg. All that happened with Cash is that he won the ball cleanly, then there was a tangle of legs. Absolutely no foul from Cash whatsoever.
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Ref Watch Aston Villa v Arsenal Match 2 Season 24/25
Michael Oliver selected as the referee. Peter Bankes on VAR duty.
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If 'referee's call' survives the first weeks of the season, we could see more attempted intimidation of refs.
If there's no correction coming from VAR for the key decisions then bullying the ref into getting what you want might become the focus for players/coaches.
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I’m pretty sure I saw Villa supporter Andre Mariner in the seats alongside Villa officials . I wonder if he has an advisor role . He had wired headphones in during the match at West Ham.
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Ref Watch v Leicester
https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13208437/ref-watch-why-referee-had-to-disallow-leicester-citys-goal-against-aston-villa
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Ref Watch v Leicester
https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13208437/ref-watch-why-referee-had-to-disallow-leicester-citys-goal-against-aston-villa
Ridiculous that anyone feels aggrieved by that decision.
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Ref Watch v Leicester
https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13208437/ref-watch-why-referee-had-to-disallow-leicester-citys-goal-against-aston-villa
Ridiculous that anyone feels aggrieved by that decision.
I can't understand why it's even a talking point, it's so obvious that they gained a huge advantage.
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And, looking at it again, if the ref hadn't blown the whistle, Torres would probably have intercepted it in any event.
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And, looking at it again, if the ref hadn't blown the whistle, Torres would probably have intercepted it in any event.
Yep, I'm not sure the dive from Martinez was him really trying to save it either, seemed a bit more performative than anything.
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Referee applies rules correctly shocker. I mean, given who the ref is it actually is a bit of a shocker I suppose, but still.
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I'm surprised they didn't cover the final pen decision when Cootes appeared to be giving it, and then the offside flag. Afterall that is the one they are being charged for but not one highlights package covered it.
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Was Coote giving it or confirming the offside?
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Was Coote giving it or confirming the offside?
No idea. Text commentary on Sky and on here seemed to indicate Coote initially looked to be pointing at the spot and then changed to the offside call. But as I mentioned, that seemed to be the decision that Leicester have been charged over so thought Ref Spot would cover it.
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I'm surprised they didn't cover the final pen decision when Cootes appeared to be giving it, and then the offside flag. Afterall that is the one they are being charged for but not one highlights package covered it.
Aston Villa v Everton sees referee: Craig Pawson with David Coote on VAR duty.
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BSC Young Boys- Aston Villa FC
Referee: Georgi Kabakov Bulgaria
Video Assistant Referee: Willy Delajod France
38 Year old ref Kabakov has shown 1622 yellow cards and 28 red cards in 346 fixtures and gives an average of 4.69 yellow cards per game.
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Interesting Daily Telegraph article by former Ref Keith Hackett
Bookings are at an all-time high – Howard Webb must explain his approach
Chelsea and Bournemouth broke the record for the most yellow cards recorded in a single Premier League match on Saturday
"We are operating at the elite level of the game, and I expect in pre-season Howard Webb detailed what was expected in terms of dealing with time wasting and dissent. Yet as I watched Anthony Taylor handing out yellow cards like confetti, it was clear that Premier League refereeing has become reactive rather than proactive.
There were 65 yellow cards this weekend, a new record, beating the previous worst total of 57. There were nine shown for dissent, nine for time wasting and two for not retreating.
Refereeing should have a step-managed approach. If a player shows dissent or wastes time, you should firstly have a quiet word with them. Referees can run alongside a player out of the public eye and firmly tell them you will not accept their behaviour. Have a word with the captain too.
Step two should be a public rebuke. Give him a warning that you are not standing for any more. Again you can bring the captain across and that you want improvement from their team.
The Premier League undervalues yellow cards. You can see that from the fact you need five of them to get a ban, while elsewhere in Europe it is three. So then we see Taylor flashing yellows without any communication, with no body language that tells you he is annoyed; no approach to the captain to make it clear that ‘I’ll caution you if this persists.’
My point is that a lot of this can be avoided with proactive management of the players. Ultimately Webb has to talk to managers. On my watch PGMOL would have regular meetings with clubs, players and coaches, to reinforce our approach. That way you would get buy-in.
All I see at the moment is managers shaking their heads as cards are shown. And if this persists, in a few weeks we will see players unable to play because they have collected yellow cards.
It makes me shudder. When I took over at PGMOL, we averaged four to five yellows per game. We acted to get that down to about three. To get 14 in one game, it’s like the referees have lost control.
So what comes now? At the Euros, they acted to reduce dissent by only allowing the captain to speak to the referee. It worked. I cannot believe this approach has not been adopted by the Premier League. And time wasting is a cancer on the game, and something we acted on last year, but that lasted six weeks.
It has been a very bad weekend for the Premier League and PGMOL and they should have an urgent meeting about this tomorrow.
This level of carding is unacceptable. Referees, managers and players need a better relationship so this doesn’t happen again"
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Ref Watch v Wolves
Tim Robinson
Var: Paul Tierney
Awarded a penalty last season against us for Bournemouth
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From seeing highlights, Konsa was definitely fouled in the leadup to the Wolves goal.
I don't think Robinson and certainly ref assistant did well at all in not awardeding a foul, it was a clear pullback on Konsa, and I believe they eventually scored if correct.
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From seeing highlights, Konsa was definitely fouled in the leadup to the Wolves goal.
I don't think Robinson and certainly ref assistant did well at all in not awardeding a foul, it was a clear pullback on Konsa, and I believe they eventually scored if correct.
There wasn't anybody anywhere near Konsa, from either side, at any point during the goal or the build up to it. Wolves win a throw in our left hand side, overhit it, it goes to Torres, who passes it to Emi, who gives it to Carlos, with the end result of a goal. Konsa was miles away from the action at all times. There certainly wasn't a foul on him.
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Interesting Daily Telegraph article by former Ref Keith Hackett
Bookings are at an all-time high – Howard Webb must explain his approach
Chelsea and Bournemouth broke the record for the most yellow cards recorded in a single Premier League match on Saturday
"We are operating at the elite level of the game, and I expect in pre-season Howard Webb detailed what was expected in terms of dealing with time wasting and dissent. Yet as I watched Anthony Taylor handing out yellow cards like confetti, it was clear that Premier League refereeing has become reactive rather than proactive.
There were 65 yellow cards this weekend, a new record, beating the previous worst total of 57. There were nine shown for dissent, nine for time wasting and two for not retreating.
Refereeing should have a step-managed approach. If a player shows dissent or wastes time, you should firstly have a quiet word with them. Referees can run alongside a player out of the public eye and firmly tell them you will not accept their behaviour. Have a word with the captain too.
Step two should be a public rebuke. Give him a warning that you are not standing for any more. Again you can bring the captain across and that you want improvement from their team.
The Premier League undervalues yellow cards. You can see that from the fact you need five of them to get a ban, while elsewhere in Europe it is three. So then we see Taylor flashing yellows without any communication, with no body language that tells you he is annoyed; no approach to the captain to make it clear that ‘I’ll caution you if this persists.’
My point is that a lot of this can be avoided with proactive management of the players. Ultimately Webb has to talk to managers. On my watch PGMOL would have regular meetings with clubs, players and coaches, to reinforce our approach. That way you would get buy-in.
All I see at the moment is managers shaking their heads as cards are shown. And if this persists, in a few weeks we will see players unable to play because they have collected yellow cards.
It makes me shudder. When I took over at PGMOL, we averaged four to five yellows per game. We acted to get that down to about three. To get 14 in one game, it’s like the referees have lost control.
So what comes now? At the Euros, they acted to reduce dissent by only allowing the captain to speak to the referee. It worked. I cannot believe this approach has not been adopted by the Premier League. And time wasting is a cancer on the game, and something we acted on last year, but that lasted six weeks.
It has been a very bad weekend for the Premier League and PGMOL and they should have an urgent meeting about this tomorrow.
This level of carding is unacceptable. Referees, managers and players need a better relationship so this doesn’t happen again"
So why is it unacceptable? The only argument here is that players get banned, but as he notes you need more cards for a ban than elsewhere (and that number could be increased further too). Meanwhile, the players who do get banned don't tend to be the ones playing glorious football.
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Only man to blame for that goal was the ever careless Carlos.
I did think the ref on general let a lot of niggly shit go from them, but their time wasting made Emi look tame.
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From seeing highlights, Konsa was definitely fouled in the leadup to the Wolves goal.
I don't think Robinson and certainly ref assistant did well at all in not awardeding a foul, it was a clear pullback on Konsa, and I believe they eventually scored if correct.
There wasn't anybody anywhere near Konsa, from either side, at any point during the goal or the build up to it. Wolves win a throw in our left hand side, overhit it, it goes to Torres, who passes it to Emi, who gives it to Carlos, with the end result of a goal. Konsa was miles away from the action at all times. There certainly wasn't a foul on him.
My mistake it was motd highlights Saturday the first attack they show in 17 mins when Konsa was high up he was pulled back ref waved play on they go up the other end get a corner and from resulting corner Lemina has free header but straight at Martinez
That's the incident. Quite right not to do with the goal but felt that it was poor officiating to let foul go and Wolves counter up field.
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I've just seen the penalty awarded to Forrrest. Jesus H.
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Has the Wolves number nine managed to make it off the pitch yet? Hard to know what constitutes a time-wasting booking if he didn't get one.
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Surely PGMOL need to explain the Gibbs-White sending off. He was on a yellow card, and then made a challenge. The ref indicated that MGW had won the ball, but then appeared to take advice from VAR and changed his mind and issued a second yellow. I thought VAR weren't allowed to intervene with yellow card decisions, but only a direct red?
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Can you imagine the Arsenal forum's equivalent of this thread. My god that would be good reading.
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The deliberate time wasting is now a problem.
I am struggling to work out how the refs get on top of this. The first thing is allowing medical staff on the field of play and only stopping the game for serious injuries.
Not sure how they deal with the icing around at restarts though.
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Surely PGMOL need to explain the Gibbs-White sending off. He was on a yellow card, and then made a challenge. The ref indicated that MGW had won the ball, but then appeared to take advice from VAR and changed his mind and issued a second yellow. I thought VAR weren't allowed to intervene with yellow card decisions, but only a direct red?
Maybe he got advice from one of his assistants rather than VAR?
It was the right decision.
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The deliberate time wasting is now a problem.
I am struggling to work out how the refs get on top of this. The first thing is allowing medical staff on the field of play and only stopping the game for serious injuries.
Not sure how they deal with the icing around at restarts though.
There is definitely more of a pattern of players going down to take momentum and crowd noise away from teams building up a head of steam.
It’s a real tough one for referees. I thought Oliver did well under very difficult circumstances yesterday.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
VAR can't contribute to consistency because the majority of decisions are subjective and by it's very definition you will get two different opinions. It's hard to fathom why the Newton Heath player wasn't sent off but there you go, both ref and VAR official got it wrong (IMO) which is what makes VAR so infuriating. Instead of one error, it looks like it was made twice.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
it wasn't a 'coming together' he didn't take his foot with the ball, he hit the ball, whilst sliding in and out of control and took the player's leg, with a scissor-like motion that could have ended up with a really serious injury. I think the first contact with the player, after he'd got the ball, was on the achilles.
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A mate asked me to look at the Lisandro Martínez attempted assault against Crystal Palace - yellow card my arse.
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The Martinez one was a poor call, no idea how you can see someone jump in with 2 feet and not give a red, even if there's no contact, it was reckless and dangerous and exactly the sort of thing that could lead to a serious injury.
Gibbs-White is bizarre but is the sort of thing that I think VAR should be able to call on, i just don't see any reason to have VAR and then limit it with a threshold of nothing less than a red card offence can be called up.
The other big one for me was the bookings for Mosquira and Rogers which were both weird. I assume they were for playing after the whistle but that seems ridiculous in a game that had seen so much time-wasting already and then to book them both was strange as well. From a claret specs viewpoint I don't see what Rogers did wrong, their guy played on so he cut in and won the ball. It led to an injury but there was no foul play so, at best, he got booked for doing something about the amount of time-wasting that was going on when the ref was clearly not bothered by it.
The Torres booking was similar as well, got booked for asking the ref why he was letting them get away with kicking the shit out of us.
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Surely PGMOL need to explain the Gibbs-White sending off. He was on a yellow card, and then made a challenge. The ref indicated that MGW had won the ball, but then appeared to take advice from VAR and changed his mind and issued a second yellow. I thought VAR weren't allowed to intervene with yellow card decisions, but only a direct red?
Maybe he got advice from one of his assistants rather than VAR?
It was the right decision.
Sky Sports Ref Watch
INCIDENT: Morgan Gibbs-White was sent off during Nottingham Forest's defeat to Brighton, with the player shown a second yellow card for a tackle on Joao Pedro.
Dermot Gallagher ex ref says: "When the ref says he got the ball, you think it's a good tackle. But the fourth official has the other angle and says it's a yellow. He's there to assist the referee. He's got the view and has passed on the information.
"The fourth official is an integral part of the team but the referee still holds the big say."
Steve Warnock ex villa now pundit says "When I saw that tackle I thought 'What a brilliant challenge'. But in the first half there was a challenge right in front of the dugout and it caused a melee but ref Rob Jones didn't give a foul. And I said what is fourth official Anthony Taylor doing. But on this occasion I think he gets involved incorrectly.
"It's a full-blooded challenge. He takes ball and then man. And Joao Pedro is struggling with injury afterwards. But I thought it was a brilliant tackle."
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A mate asked me to look at the Lisandro Martínez attempted assault against Crystal Palace - yellow card my arse.
Sky Sports Ref Watch :
INCIDENT: Man Utd's Lisandro Martinez was not sent off for a two-footed challenge against Crystal Palace's Daichi Kamada, despite Palace boss Oliver Glasner later saying the United defender could have broken Kamada's leg.
Dermot Gallagher ex ref says "I think that's what saved him from getting a red card - that he didn't make contact with the player. He's given the referee a big decision to make. The fact he has caught the ball rather than the player has saved him
I sent a player off once for a dangerous tackle, who didn't touch him. I said he doesn't have to break his leg for it to be a red card."
Steve Warnock pundit : "It's a coward's tackle. The intent is there. I think he's very lucky."
Sue Smith ex player now pundit :"You never get taught to defend like that. That is endangering an opponent."
For me
I wondered if there was some influence by the Argentine against a dislike to a Japanese.
Regards the tackle Alan Smith at the time said it was madness.
It was disgusting behaviour and with such intent and carelessness should have been sent off.
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I guess the issue with Gibbs-White and Rice a few weeks ago was that they were second yellows leading to a red. neither were red cards in and of themselves. had they been first yellows they wouldn't have had that focus. For me Gibbs White won the ball and then there was a coming together. it was much less of a yellow than Martinez for Man Utd vs Palace on saturday. the refereeing issue is consistency, which you'd think VAR would help with.
it wasn't a 'coming together' he didn't take his foot with the ball, he hit the ball, whilst sliding in and out of control and took the player's leg, with a scissor-like motion that could have ended up with a really serious injury. I think the first contact with the player, after he'd got the ball, was on the achilles.
Totally.
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The other big one for me was the bookings for Mosquira and Rogers which were both weird. I assume they were for playing after the whistle but that seems ridiculous in a game that had seen so much time-wasting already and then to book them both was strange as well. From a claret specs viewpoint I don't see what Rogers did wrong, their guy played on so he cut in and won the ball. It led to an injury but there was no foul play so, at best, he got booked for doing something about the amount of time-wasting that was going on when the ref was clearly not bothered by it...
Mosquira got booked for the foul on Watkins, chopping him down as he broke away from 2 defenders.
Rogers got booked for supposedly following through on Mosquira as he lay on the ground.
The first was nailed-on; I'm guessing the second was an interpretation by the ref that Rogers went in for a bit of retribution. I saw it as Rogers trying to play on before the ref blew.
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For me, I wondered if there was some influence by the Argentine against a dislike to a Japanese.
For goodness sake: that's a pretty out-there / unsubstantiated comment.
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As long as they are being undermined and intimidated at every level of the game from kids football to the World Cup Final it will continue to be a lottery of inconsistency. How many on here would be brave enough to referee sunday league?? - i know i wouldnt. Sky/TNT etc has twenty cameras at every game and frame--by-frame slow motions etc monitoring and analyzing every decision. Fifty thousand people calling me a wanker every week - No thanks.
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The referee’s are generally fine and honest. They have 22 players using every trick in the book to gain an advantage, 22 players cheating at every opportuniy. Not to mention coaching staff, substitutes screaming at them for much of the match, claiming every decision go their way. They make it an impossible job.
And all in front of a 50,000 live audience, many of whom are screaming abuse at the from the first whistle and an armchair audience of millions who have slow motion replays from 20 angles to aid their decision making.
They must be mad to do it if you ask me.
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This league cup official tonight was spectacular.Spectacularly awful.
Our players are being fouled yet ref lets play go on and ignores it.Or where there should be a caution doesn't give a card.There was an incident where Buendia had his shirt pulled back and stopped, and there was no award of a yellow card.
The penalty awarded too was completely wrong, though I won't complain so much on that! But it was unfair.
John Busby was his name.
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That rings a bell.
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He hasn't made anyone happy.
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This league cup official tonight was spectacular.Spectacularly awful.
Our players are being fouled yet ref lets play go on and ignores it.Or where there should be a caution doesn't give a card.There was an incident where Buendia had his shirt pulled back and stopped, and there was no award of a yellow card.
The penalty awarded too was completely wrong, though I won't complain so much on that! But it was unfair.
John Busby was his name.
You should see some of the displays by referees in the lower divisions. Last week a centre forward spent all afternoon picking himself up off the ground where the centre half had despatched him prior to heading the ball away. Ref just turned away and followed the game. On seeing this happen the other teams centre half commenced the same on the other centre forward, Then we had both of them picking themselves up!
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That rings a bell.
I had a Busby teddy when I was a kid, bloody loved that thing.
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We had a money box shaped like Busby next to the phone. It doesn't cost much to keep in touch.
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why is Attwell allowed to ref us on Sunday? I've never understood this.
He's from Nuneaton which historically was a Villa town. Him and his dad were season ticket holders at Cov who hate Villa.
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why is Attwell allowed to ref us on Sunday? I've never understood this.
He's from Nuneaton which historically was a Villa town. Him and his dad were season ticket holders at Cov who hate Villa.
Luton fan according to PGMOL.
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I always love the idea that a ref would potentially put his career on the line due to a team he/she may support.
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why is Attwell allowed to ref us on Sunday? I've never understood this.
He's from Nuneaton which historically was a Villa town. Him and his dad were season ticket holders at Cov who hate Villa.
Luton fan according to PGMOL.
I think that's a joke because he allowed the phantom goal against Watford.
His family are well known in Nuneaton. His dad was Secretary of the Refereeing Association for the local leagues for years.
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
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I always love the idea that a ref would potentially put his career on the line due to a team he/she may support.
Where my Inside Number 9 brethren at?
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
I think it’s a myth that’s been put around by Luton fans.
He was certainly a Coventry season ticket holder
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I don't know who he supports, but I'll be calling him a cheating bastard on Sunday.
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I don't know who he supports, but I'll be calling him a cheating bastard on Sunday.
Indeed. He really is a shit referee, right up there with Michael Oliver and Antony Taylor. I'm trying to remember the last referee who we didn't notice. There are good ones out there but they're so good we forget they were there and who they are.
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I don't know who he supports, but I'll be calling him a cheating bastard on Sunday.
Indeed. He really is a shit referee, right up there with Michael Oliver and Antony Taylor. I'm trying to remember the last referee who we didn't notice. There are good ones out there but they're so good we forget they were there and who they are.
Yes, a ghastly specimen of the genre.
A turd fondler and a fellator of mandrills.
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Ghastly ref.
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
I'm sorry that's a ridiculous theory!
I know Atwell did the infamous Leeds Villa 1&1 sending off El Ghazi disgracefully and not having any handle of the gam.
Villa have won 9 and lost 3 when he's officiating so he's not doing anything to stop us winning matches apart from the Leeds game where he allowed their goal.
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It can't be a joke or as a result of something that happened when he was reffing, it's the club he registered as a fan of years ago when he first joined them. Maybe he lied purely so he could hope to ref some Villa games and get away with screwing us over (no more or less than many other refs though because that'd be too obvious).
I'm sorry that's a ridiculous theory!
I know Atwell did the infamous Leeds Villa 1&1 sending off El Ghazi disgracefully and not having any handle of the gam.
Villa have won 9 and lost 3 when he's officiating so he's not doing anything to stop us winning matches apart from the Leeds game where he allowed their goal.
Well yes, that was my point.
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Oh jesus fucking christ.
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Oh jesus fucking christ.
I am sure it can be AI assimilated.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
Yeah, but being 'bent' and bottling decisions are two different things.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
Yeah, but being 'bent' and bottling decisions are two different things.
Has he ever said anything on record about the decision? I would be intrigued as to what his thought process was, the pot bellied ******.
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Nobody can or will convince me that the turd Phil Dowd who reffed our LC final against the Redfilth was not bent when he did not send of Vidic. The rules were clear then - stop a goal scoring opportunity it was a Pen and a straight red.
He was intimidated by the spectre of rednose and completely bottled it.
Yeah, but being 'bent' and bottling decisions are two different things.
You are corrrect replace bent (as i do not think he took a bung to not give it) with useless and bottling it with outright cheating by not applying the rules
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There was a podcast last year I think where he mentioned it - cannot remember what he said though.
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The problem is the ref's who believe they "HAVE TO" ensure finals are a spectacle for all fans. So they let more go then they should.
Look at Milford for the 91 final. Gascoigne should have been carded for a high foot directly into Parkers chest. Milford gave the foul and no card. He then allowed the foul on Gary Charles with no punishment to Spurs either. He even did an interview a few years ago with "how would it have looked if he had red carded Gascoigne when he was being carried off on a stretcher". Well like you were doing the correct thing as per the laws of the game, but as Gascoigne actually got up and went into the wall for the freekick before collapsing and going off on said stretcher, don't fucking lie you grey-pube-haired twat, you were not going to send off one of the big names in the final.
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Wasn't it the great CoC himself, Graham Poll, who defended Dowd's cowardice (at best) by saying, "In cup finals, referees have to ref the occasion."
Tip -top! Let's just rip up the fucking rule-book and get on with it!
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I have never been angrier in my life than that 2010 final. The only thing that prevented me being thrown out of the pub in Shanghai was the fact the staff couldn’t understand me.
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Truly, one of the greatest referees to ever blow his Acme Thunderer.
FA Cup referee's cup final medal to be auctioned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2kdvvnk18qo
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The official Atwell was appalling today.
There should have been a sending off for Ipswich Captain.
And there were many fouls he wasn't giving cost us the game
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We were pretty poor and unbalanced but I don’t think Attwell shouldn’t be reffing our games!
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Morsy should've walked for sure. Went in late on Tielemans and I presumed last warning and then he does the same to Jaden five minutes later and ref just ignores it.
We were our own worst enemies in the second half but we were 2-1 up when he was putting in those late challengers so it did impact things.
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Across this weekend refs have bottled second yellows.
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Awful today.
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Across this weekend refs have bottled second yellows.
Yeah, it's definitely feeling like this at the moment.
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Across this weekend refs have bottled second yellows.
Yeah, it's definitely feeling like this at the moment.
Yeah but in our case the ref bottled it twice!
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I don’t normally comment much on ref’s, but his failure to send their captain off was something else.
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I don’t normally comment much on ref’s, but his failure to send their captain off was something else.
Yeah, I'm one of the more lenient ones on here in regards to refs, but it was simply utter horseshit.
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Yeah. You can sympathise if a referee misses something, but when they see it and decide they're going to ignore the rules, they're cheats.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
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Atwell is a total scum bag. He has no idea the difference between a foul and a fair challenge.
Totally bottled it yesterday, there were 2 bookable offences after the yellow.
Absolute idiot or bent , not sure.
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Atwell is a total scum bag. He has no idea the difference between a foul and a fair challenge.
Totally bottled it yesterday, there were 2 bookable offences after the yellow.
Absolute idiot or bent , not sure.
Bottled it; he would have given them yellows if they had not already been on yellows.
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Cov supporter
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The laws of the game are there for all to see but it’s the application that’s the issue. Yesterday was comical, he saw both fouls and decided not to give him a card. They should be wheeled out in front of the cameras and made to justify decisions like this. It’s too easy for them to run off to the next game without justifying their decisions to the people that count, the fans.
This seasons fad is booking players for kicking the ball away, which is good, but it won’t last more than a few months.
There’s having a bad game and then there’s
doing what you want and ignoring the laws of the game. I guarantee he’ll be giving players second yellows for a lot less than that this season.
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He booked Digne correctly for kicking the ball away, but he hadn't seen it and did it off the back of the Ipswich player moaning about it.
He looked like a child that had lost both his parents and his favourite teddy in a large supermarket, scared and only with a vague comprehension of what was going on around him.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
😄
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
😄
I know what you mean though, we were crap. But still, when you have ref like and the opposition can do what they like as long as the ref is looking directly at them (which was every single time) it knocks you off your game, that's why teams do it.
The game now is pretty soft all in all, but when you do get a team sticking the boot in rather than clamp down on it, refs seem raise the threshold for that team on what constitutes a foul. Dyche's teams get this, his big clogger's always seem to get away with challenges that would be punished differently (see Tarkowski again at the weekend) in other games because they make so bloody many of them.
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I am convinced that the refs have never played a proper game of adult football.
You know instinctively the difference between an over the top challenge, a deliberate foul and a miss- timed tackle.
The second yellow card offence was a deliberate stamp with no real concern for the ball.
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We win the game against 10 so he has almost certainly cost us two points that may be critical come the end of the season.
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When you had the pundit, was it Alan Smith? saying, the challenge wasn’t a red card, it could easily have been deemed one. It was definitely a yellow. A yellow that would have seen him rightly off. That aside, Atwell gave them nearly every decision and allowed Ipswich to kick lumps out of us. Shit ref.
Referee bottled the decision to send him off, plain and simple..Took a long time to even blow the whistle for the foul which was strange as it happened right in front of him.
However the ref would be a long way down the list of things of what went wrong on Saturday for us.
He would, but he'd be very high on the one from Sunday.
😄
I know what you mean though, we were crap. But still, when you have ref like and the opposition can do what they like as long as the ref is looking directly at them (which was every single time) it knocks you off your game, that's why teams do it.
The game now is pretty soft all in all, but when you do get a team sticking the boot in rather than clamp down on it, refs seem raise the threshold for that team on what constitutes a foul. Dyche's teams get this, his big clogger's always seem to get away with challenges that would be punished differently (see Tarkowski again at the weekend) in other games because they make so bloody many of them.
Going away early in the season to a newly promoted team, I'm expecting the referee to favour them with 50/50s and let them get stuck into us. We should take it as a compliment, match their intensity and the gulf in class should take care of the rest. I'm not sure our midfielders made a tackle between them in the first half.
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He booked Digne correctly for kicking the ball away, but he hadn't seen it and did it off the back of the Ipswich player moaning about it.
He looked like a child that had lost both his parents and his favourite teddy in a large supermarket, scared and only with a vague comprehension of what was going on around him.
it's stuff like that which makes me think he's just shit at his job rather than it being spite towards us because of who he supports.
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He booked Digne correctly for kicking the ball away, but he hadn't seen it and did it off the back of the Ipswich player moaning about it.
He looked like a child that had lost both his parents and his favourite teddy in a large supermarket, scared and only with a vague comprehension of what was going on around him.
it's stuff like that which makes me think he's just shit at his job rather than it being spite towards us because of who he supports.
I absolutely put it down to that rather than malice.
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For the second week running, we had one player booked compared to 5 or 6 for the oppo. There is something about rotational fouling which refs do not seem to track. When I reffed (admittedly at the junior level), I would warn the captain of a continually-fouling side that he would get booked if the team continued to transgress. It often worked, and when any complaints were made I made sure people knew I'd warned the team before.
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After the Leeds away debacle he should never have reffed another one of our games again. He is a useless turd and that is being unkind to turds.
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Like the awful Coote, he actually looks terrified that he's out there.
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Vs Bayern Munich 41 year old Radu Petrescu is the official from Romanian.
This is a biggest Match of his Career arguably.
He didn't officiate champions league football last season But did one match season before - so only ever officiated once in Champions League Plzen 2-4 Barcelona.
And he awarded a penalty to home side Plzen!
This season in 5 matches in Romania league he has shown 21 cards in total.
And Europa Qualifying match this season one match and he showed 5 yellow cards.
Overall in 8 matches he's been in charge this season he has shown 32 cards
So that's an average of 4 a game.
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This could probably just go in the pre-match thread Footy.
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I just like to put ref appointments here so it can then be scrutinized specifically. And then same after matches if necessary.
I find things can get lost for discussion on pre match thread but I take your point.
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Well, that was something else last night in terms of bias.
Seeing Newton Heath getting a soft penalty on Sunday will almost be a breath of fresh air!
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That's two matches in a row where an opponent should have been sent off but ref didn't.
Can Referee Robert Jones Vs Man Utd make the right call if comes to it.
He's been appointed as official with John Brookes on VAR.
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So Morsy last week and Rashford today. I like Unai's respect for the officials but I think it doesn't actually do us any favours.
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3 games and 3 ****** who should have walked.
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3 games and 3 ****** who should have walked.
All in a single week. Dog shit officials again. It's so boring now.
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I couldn’t really see the Rashford incident, after he’d already been booked as it was the opposite end, was it really that bad?
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I couldn’t really see the Rashford incident, after he’d already been booked as it was the opposite end, was it really that bad?
Definite yellow if he hadn't got one already
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Was a total bottle job by a poor referee…and his timekeeping at the end was awful
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I couldn’t really see the Rashford incident, after he’d already been booked as it was the opposite end, was it really that bad?
Definite yellow if he hadn't got one already
Yeah it was just so obvious. I'm not sure why there seems to be some artificial higher threshold for a 2nd booking. Walk the ******.
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No attempt to get the ball, just trips him running towards the penalty area.
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Dictionary definition of a yellow.
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Seen a replay. Fucking hell.
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Staggeringly poor decision not to give the second yellow.
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Seen a replay. Fucking hell.
Yeah just seen it, if it was the one on Bailey, definite yellow and would have been if he hadn’t already been shown one, not that it should make a difference. The ref wasn’t shy in giving them yellow cards but bottled that one.
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Clear yellow card. Should have been sent off. Poor decision.
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I think the club should at least ask the question.
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That's two matches in a row where an opponent should have been sent off but ref didn't.
Can Referee Robert Jones Vs Man Utd make the right call if comes to it.
He's been appointed as official with John Brookes on VAR.
As No Jones can't make the call.
Rashford should have gone for two yellows
3 matches in a row now where refs call is incorrect and sending off players weren't implemented.
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I was listening on the radio - and Clinton Morrison said it wasnt a yellow - and what he doesnt know about football isnt worth knowing.
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I was listening on the radio - and Clinton Morrison said it wasnt a yellow - and what he doesnt know about football isnt worth knowing.
Morrison was bound to defend the referee. He's a pathetic pundit. Can't string a decent sentence together....
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I heard them talking about second yellows on the football weekly podcasts and they mentioned that Mike Dean (I think) stated that there is a higher threshold for 2nd yellows, which is frankly complete and utter bollocks.
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I heard them talking about second yellows on the football weekly podcasts and they mentioned that Mike Dean (I think) stated that there is a higher threshold for 2nd yellows, which is frankly complete and utter bollocks.
Mike Dean is a grade one publicity seeking tosser. The ball had been played by Bailey and he was skipping away from Rashford who lazily rather than maliciously kicked Bailey's legs from under him. It was as blatant a booking as it gets. The very definition of a yellow card. Mike Dean gets a well paid voice on Sky Sports and spends his time being self appointed president of the referees covering each other's arse society. He's a sycophantic little knobhead.
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What I did see over the weekend was at long last defenders being penalised for scragging in the penalty box. I hope they also take note of the blocking that Arsenal employ.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
You could just as well penalise Man United players for not trying to get it off him. If the ball is in play we are entitled to hold it and ask the attacking team to come for it as it is part of our game plan.
I can maybe forgive fans for howling about it, but you’d expect a ref to understand the basics.
Are they going to start booking players for taking it into the corner next?
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I was listening on the radio - and Clinton Morrison said it wasnt a yellow - and what he doesnt know about football isnt worth knowing.
Morrison was bound to defend the referee. He's a pathetic pundit. Can't string a decent sentence together....
I think it was more a forward defending a typical forward's challenge. It wasn't dangerous, it wasn't designed to hurt Bailey, it was just a typical deliberate foul when a winger gets away from you towards the byline. A yellow card all day.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
You could just as well penalise Man United players for not trying to get it off him. If the ball is in play we are entitled to hold it and ask the attacking team to come for it as it is part of our game plan.
I can maybe forgive fans for howling about it, but you’d expect a ref to understand the basics.
Are they going to start booking players for taking it into the corner next?
This.
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Was not as bad as some of the refs we have had against that lot. Bottled the Rashford decision and gave them a few free kicks for throwing themselves to the floor. The Gonadchio free kick was particularly poor.
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Don't be fooled into thinking Refs decisions with yellow cards is in any way helping the team that is consistently being fouled.
If they do not follow up with another yellow, for in most cases the same type of foul as they received the initial yellow for, then there is no point in issuing a yellow at all.
Yellow cards are supposed to be a deterrent; if you allow that same player to commit fouls in the same manner throughout the rest of the game there no longer is a deterrent.
That is the question that should be put to referees and their governing body, if you do not follow the correct applications of the disciplinary rules, verbal warning, followed by written warning, followed by dismissal, if the same behaviour is exhibited throughout all 3 stages, WHY?
Stop all this false punishment that is being completely ignored by the instigators, much like repeat offenders in real life, the punishment must make the offence untenable.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
You could just as well penalise Man United players for not trying to get it off him. If the ball is in play we are entitled to hold it and ask the attacking team to come for it as it is part of our game plan.
I can maybe forgive fans for howling about it, but you’d expect a ref to understand the basics.
Are they going to start booking players for taking it into the corner next?
This.
Yep, that pissed me off, pathetic from the ref.
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No one’s mentioned the way he stood there tapping at his watch as if to say he was adding time on whilst Emi had the ball at his feet IN PLAY. It is not time wasting if the ball is in play.
I didn't notice that!
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Don't be fooled into thinking Refs decisions with yellow cards is in any way helping the team that is consistently being fouled.
If they do not follow up with another yellow, for in most cases the same type of foul as they received the initial yellow for, then there is no point in issuing a yellow at all.
Yellow cards are supposed to be a deterrent; if you allow that same player to commit fouls in the same manner throughout the rest of the game there no longer is a deterrent.
That is the question that should be put to referees and their governing body, if you do not follow the correct applications of the disciplinary rules, verbal warning, followed by written warning, followed by dismissal, if the same behaviour is exhibited throughout all 3 stages, WHY?
Stop all this false punishment that is being completely ignored by the instigators, much like repeat offenders in real life, the punishment must make the offence untenable.
Because then there'd be no bloody referees.
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I thought he did okay yesterday. He gave us a lot of decisions especially in the first half. But he definitely bottled that decision. It was right in the corner where their tosspots were housed and it was Rashford so we can't be doing that.
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I thought he did okay yesterday. He gave us a lot of decisions especially in the first half. But he definitely bottled that decision. It was right in the corner where their tosspots were housed and it was Rashford so we can't be doing that.
Yeah he did ok up until he really needed to make a decision, and he didn't.
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Sky Sports Ref Watch:
INCIDENT: Marcus Rashford, already on a yellow card, fouls Leon Bailey. Should the Man Utd forward have been sent off?
Dermot Gallagher ex ref : "What saves him is Dalot, who comes and sweeps the ball up. The argument is he's not breaking a promising attack. He gets a little bit lucky because the ball is running out."
I feel the above criteria is irrelevant as it was a foul and bookable offence!
Very disappointed to hear that reasoning on Sky Sports Ref Watch.
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Silly defence, kicking someone's legs out from under them after they've gone past you isn't a booking if there's a defender covering. The presence of a covering defender, if anything, makes it worse because it makes thge foul entirely unneccesary.
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Yes that might stop a red if it could have been considered a goal scoring opportunity, but it shouldn’t influence the decision to give a yellow.
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Vs Fulham official is South Yorkshire Doncaster Darren England
VAR: Paul Tierney.
He's officiated us 7 times in the Premier League and have won 2 drawn 1 lost 4.
Good news he likes to award us penalties! 4 in 7 matches.
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Vs Fulham official is South Yorkshire Doncaster Darren England
VAR: Paul Tierney.
He's officiated us 7 times in the Premier League and have won 2 drawn 1 lost 4.
Good news he likes to award us penalties! 4 in 7 matches.
Complete spanner, loses control of the game.
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Darren England is one of the few refs to go to the screen and stick with his own decision…poss the only one to do it at VP?
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Vs Fulham official is South Yorkshire Doncaster Darren England
VAR: Paul Tierney.
He's officiated us 7 times in the Premier League and have won 2 drawn 1 lost 4.
Good news he likes to award us penalties! 4 in 7 matches.
Complete spanner, loses control of the game.
Are you saying he gives England a bad name ?
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Darren England is one of the few refs to go to the screen and stick with his own decision…poss the only one to do it at VP?
He was also the VAR official for infamous Spurs v Liverpool game when he was at Stockley Park and the Luis Diaz's goal for Liverpool was incorrectly ruled out for offside.
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Interesting performance by Darren England today.
Got their sending off right
The penalty wasn't given by him and instructed by VAR to go to the monitors then gave it against Cash
A couple of the yellows were harsh for our players
And sent of Philogene for two cautions.
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Vs Arsenal officials will be Chris Kavanagh and VAR John Brooks.
Still no SAOT introduced I wonder when that will come in as it's been delayed but due to be implemented this season in the Prem
Kavanagh booked over half the outfield and gave us 7 cards v Bournemouth earlier this season in 1-1 draw!
In 14 games Kavanagh given out the second most yellow cards this season. 72
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That Bournemouth game was weird, there was barely a bad tackle in the game.
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That Bournemouth game was weird, there was barely a bad tackle in the game.
If I remember rightly, he gave a soft one early on and then was probably obligated to keep going.
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I don’t really see why making a poor decision early on means that becomes the benchmark and basically you perpetuate that original mistake repeatedly.
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I don’t really see why making a poor decision early on means that becomes the benchmark and basically you perpetuate that original mistake repeatedly.
It shouldn’t but it does happen and that Bournemouth game was a classic example. He booked someone early on at a ridiculously low bar (free kick only, have a word in the players ear) and rather than acknowledge he’d maybe gone a bit far he doubled down and was booking pretty much anyone for minor fouls. I’m not normally one for having a go at referees but it was so bad a performance from him it stood out a mile.
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Vs Arsenal officials will be Chris Kavanagh and VAR John Brooks.
Still no SAOT introduced I wonder when that will come in as it's been delayed but due to be implemented this season in the Prem
Kavanagh booked over half the outfield and gave us 7 cards v Bournemouth earlier this season in 1-1 draw!
In 14 games Kavanagh given out the second most yellow cards this season. 72
Maybe games like this is why my brother's mate (L1 ref) and his pals have been told to give fewer cards!
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The ref against Everton did pretty well I thought.
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He certainly did with Onana….he didn’t wimp out to the crowd like Taylor did for Durans red. Barely noticed him all game which is how it should be
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The ref against Everton did pretty well I thought.
He was good. Its a pity he was so inept when he ref'd our game at Forest.
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The ref against Everton did pretty well I thought.
Yep I thought he was ok. I felt like he was letting a fair bit go when they built up a head of steam, but that’s probably more about my confirmation bias. I thought he did well.
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He certainly did with Onana….he didn’t wimp out to the crowd like Taylor did for Durans red. Barely noticed him all game which is how it should be
I thought he was harsh in booking Onana early on and I half expected him to be over eager with them but after that he was pretty sensible, just a shame he felt the need to "lay down the law" early on and then let similar challenges go for the rest of the game.
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Harsh on the Onana booking? Not sure about that it was a pretty ropey challenge on a player running away from him.
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Harsh on the Onana booking? Not sure about that it was a pretty ropey challenge on a player running away from him.
He put a leg in front of him, didn't quite reach the ball and the player tripped over his foot, there was nothing reckless about it. It's exactly the sort of foul that often gets given as a yellow card but shouldn't be because you see 5-6 of them every game.
Mangala alone made 3 tackles that were similar and never got booked.
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Harsh on the Onana booking? Not sure about that it was a pretty ropey challenge on a player running away from him.
Agree, it was stop the break foul….rarely get away with those even with the really crap refs
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Same ref today?
Chris Cavanagh?
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He hates us as well.
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Same ref today?
Chris Cavanagh?
His performance against Bournemouth made me wonder if we were playing a different sport for the day.
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He hates us as well.
I don't know about that, having watched him today I think he's just crap.
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It appears every referee has their own set of rules. The ref at the Newcastle game let a lot go and then the next ref will book everything that moves. Players and fans alike don’t have a clue what to expect.
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Total muppet today again.
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Piss poor from all three today. Fooled by most of the Arsenal histrionics and although we got one or two decisions, I didnt feel we got much.
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That performance today, by the ref and his lino on our side in the second half was as bad as I’ve seen. It wasn’t even thinly veiled incompetence, some may even say it was blind predujice. Quite unbelievable.
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The booking of Emery was ludicrous. He wasn’t kicking the ball away, he was just kicking it.
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The booking of Emery was ludicrous. He wasn’t kicking the ball away, he was just kicking it.
The look on his face would have been called a 'jumped up Hitler' back in the day.
He was almost smiling as he did it. Didn't have the control he wanted so just tried to bully his way through.
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Nah, I’m not having that. Unai toe poked it as hard as he could. I quite enjoyed it though.
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An absolute bellend and homer.
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Surprised that Emery has been booked thrice. He's usually as good as gold.
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Surprised that Emery has been booked thrice. He's usually as good as gold.
We've had loads of refs this season either lose control or give us absolutely nothing.
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Monaco v Villa.
Top Official this evening Slavko Vinčić from Slovenia he's a outstanding ref.
Was the official for last season final.
Certainly he's step ahead and above likes of Kavanagh.
This season he's averaged 4 cards a game in UCL.
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Officials for West Ham
Referee: Peter Banks VAR: Paul Tierney.
Averages 4 cards a game.
Ahh Peter Bankes the man in charge for the infamous 3-3 v Preston sent off James Chester in that game and gave us a penalty for Glen Whelan to take...
This season he has only done one Villa match officiated our 2-1 victory Man City.
6 bookings in the game
Booked 3 players of ours including Martinez for dissent!
Officiated one West Ham match this season which they lost 3-0 away at forest and had a player sent off for two yellow cards.
In the past he has sent off Matty Cash for two yellows
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Thought the Monaco ref was poor. Any contact meant a free-kick.
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Thought the Monaco ref was poor. Any contact meant a free-kick.
I thought he had a strange game, I thought he had a good first half, kept the cards in his pocket, let the game flow where he could but also played advantage properly, with 2-3 cases where he realised after a couple of seconds that there was no advantage and pulled it back. 2nd half he seemed to lose control a bit and started giving them a lot more free kicks for some pretty theatrical dives which just made the game really stop-start and stopped either side really getting any momentum, which obviously suited them more than us.
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Carragher claiming the players are not making easy for Peter Bankes.
I'd argue that Bankes lacking authority and letting fouls like the blatant one on Tielemans by Kudus in midfield led to immense frustration as well as confusion of how physical can get!
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I'm feeling Bankes has caused problems to players here due to his nature of officiating.
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That was as bad a refereeing display as I've seen for a very long time. West ham lad should have walked, without doubt.
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I have no idea which rules Peter fuckn Banks was choosing to use and which to ignore during that match. He obviously wasn't sure either. Shocking
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Scandal he didn't send off Alvarez today. Even on a yellow he committed the most obvious bookable offence you can get and he just dismissed it.
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That ref was awful today.
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Banked was awful today. Poor judgement and total lack of consistency causes frustrated players which raises the temperature
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Banked was awful today. Poor judgement and total lack of consistency causes frustrated players which raises the temperature
Perfectly illustrated at half time when the whole ground booed him off.
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Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
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That’s as bad a refereeing performance as I’ve seen for some time. He didn’t have a clue what was going on, bottled a second yellow and missed some blatant fouls.
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Carragher claiming the players are not making easy for Peter Bankes.
I'd argue that Bankes lacking authority and letting fouls like the blatant one on Tielemans by Kudus in midfield led to immense frustration as well as confusion of how physical can get!
Sorry, what?? The players are supposed to make things easy for the ref??? Which planet does Carragher live on ?
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I watch a lot of sports. Football haa by far the worst officiating of any of them. To-days performance by the ref and his linos was inept throughout. The incompetent officiating, (which is a given for every game) is an embarrassment and ruining the game for players and fans.
To-days stooge was totally clueless! Something needs to be done to address it and quickly.
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Which planet does Carragher live on ?
Only saw the quote, but he appeared to mention before the match that the reason Ollie isn't on the same form as last season is because he has Duran on the bench. Not sure what to make of that comment, especially as the reason Ollie was so good last season was..... we had Duran on the bench.
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Soucek should have been off today as well. Two handed push off the ball on Cash before a free kick that the referee saw. It was as blatant a yellow as you’ll see so either he doesn’t take Kamara out later and we get a good break or he gets his second yellow. As for Alvarez, how that wasn’t a second yellow…
He was just incompetent from start to finish to be honest and it felt like we got the worse end of it although I’m sure we got one or two our way, just not the bigger calls.
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I have no idea which rules Peter fuckn Banks was choosing to use and which to ignore during that match. He obviously wasn't sure either. Shocking
Like most refs seem to do these days, he just makes his own up. They're a feckin' embarrassment to the sport!
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Alvarez staying on a yellow and not seeing a second one then red for this was an horrendous decision.
https://x.com/RedCardGiven/status/1883582510187327907
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The ref at Arsenal was bad enough, this bell end wasn’t far short of it either. Absolutely bloody clueless.
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Three times this year the referee has been the only person in the ground, including the opposition, who didn't think that a player should receive a second yellow card. Gutless bottling cowards.
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Carragher claiming the players are not making easy for Peter Bankes.
I'd argue that Bankes lacking authority and letting fouls like the blatant one on Tielemans by Kudus in midfield led to immense frustration as well as confusion of how physical can get!
Sorry, what?? The players are supposed to make things easy for the ref??? Which planet does Carragher live on ?
I can only think of crowding the ref, which is what they did when Tielemans got booked and not falling over saying you’ve been elbowed when you haven’t which is what they did as well. If the referee punishes that he gets control of the game but he didn’t. He lost control because of his own inactions and nothing else.
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Another absolute shocker.
A total joke of a ref, no idea how idiots like Banks actually get paid to ref.
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Another absolute shocker.
A total joke of a ref, no idea how idiots like Banks actually get paid to ref.
On the way to the match my son was reminding me how poor his record was. At leat he was true to form.
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Worst ref I've seen at Villa Park since that joker in tje Conference League semi-final. He was embarrassingly bad today though and lost control over certain periods of the game. Awful performance.
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Alvarez staying on a yellow and not seeing a second one then red for this was an horrendous decision.
https://x.com/RedCardGiven/status/1883582510187327907
Even worse as MOTD pointed out that he could have been yellowed for kicking the ball away in the first half.
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A truly shocking performance. Only one thing is clear - absolutely nothing will be done about it.
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Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
Same here, Paul. I hate doing it, people will often bollock a ref for 2 mistakes and forget the 15 correct calls but this ref was absolutely terrible. He completely lost control of the game.
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I'm feeling Bankes has caused problems to players here due to his nature of officiating.
Spot on!
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Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
Same here, Paul. I hate doing it, people will often bollock a ref for 2 mistakes and forget the 15 correct calls but this ref was absolutely terrible. He completely lost control of the game.
That’s exactly it, he seemed to be guessing decisions half the time and the rest of it just ignoring what was happening.
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With the access of VAR, there is no excuse for not getting virtually every decision correct. PGMOL should be scrapped and never seen again. Blatant dives pushes in the back etc are all seen clearly in real time and unfortunately ignored, if it suits the narrative!
These referees know the rules and should be forced to implement them without favour.
It wouldn't take long to improve the game.
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Nothing will change because the refs etc are all looking after each other, the obvious thing to do is to go through footage of the game (not incidents in isolation) and judge whether or not the refereeing is up to the standard required
PGMOL will never do this, it needs independent investigation
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I can understand refs not seeing everything - but with 4 pairs of eyes seeing a ball kicked away should be punished - but that was only important at the start of the season.
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It started with the shove in the back on Tielemans on the halfway line when he was breaking forward which was a clear foul, and things deteriorated from there. I felt he let some really physical stuff go and the players took their lead from that. I know PGMOL wanted to allow more physicality but it went too far yesterday and he never got control of the game again.
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I can understand refs not seeing everything - but with 4 pairs of eyes seeing a ball kicked away should be punished - but that was only important at the start of the season.
It was important until Arsenal got punished for it twice and then was slowly pushed down the must be punished priorities. Which has now been joined by blatant tactical fouling judging by yesterdays standards.
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Ah Arsenal. Nobody, NOBODY suffers at the hands of corrupt referees as they so obviously do. I was listening to the Rest is Football podcast earlier, and dear of 'Big Meeks' said that he considered the red card to be the worst ever decision in PL history.
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Another absolute shocker.
A total joke of a ref, no idea how idiots like Banks actually get paid to ref.
Not usually one to go at the ref but he made that into a niggly game.
Same here, Paul. I hate doing it, people will often bollock a ref for 2 mistakes and forget the 15 correct calls but this ref was absolutely terrible. He completely lost control of the game.
Have you ever seen so many players grab and handle the ball in a match ? Wanting a free kick , officiating it themselves . I haven't ever at this level.
There were several occasions when players took upon themselves to hold on to the ball with their hands wanting a free kick.
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I'm feeling Bankes has caused problems to players here due to his nature of officiating.
Spot on!
Could see it in the match couldn't you ?
Clearly there was not trust in Ref authority and players felt to officiate themselves.
Bankes was being deliberate awkward just to highlight I'm still in charge.
On the occasion Mings handled and caught the ball their were mitigating circumstances, Bankes had the good sense rule and applied it for Ty as he technically could have been booked for it but at least the official took context into account on that occasion.
Booking Mings would have been downright preposterous!
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FV
[/quote]
Don't ever bother replying to me! I will never be reading it....
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The only consolation I can take from their lad not getting a blatant 2nd yellow was that it was pretty much identical to the one Onana didn't get at Everton. So consistent. Consistently wrong but consistent.
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Referees are on a hiding to nothing.
People have moaned about referees for ever, it's just that these days every decision is pored over repeatedly, replayed to death everywhere and it reinforces the view they are all shit.
I used to work with a guy who was a linesman and a referee, he said he'd make a decision, being close to the action and would swear he'd got it right only to watch it back on Match of the Day later and realise he'd not seen what he thought.
With VAR, and 4th officials, the system should be more supportive, and objective, but as we saw with the Duran sending off, it was split half and half about whether he should be sent off or not. The Arsenal sending off was a weak one for sure, but that matters not.
I also liked the VAR reviewed sending off in the Dundee Utd game yesterday, the ref didn't change his mind!
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The only consolation I can take from their lad not getting a blatant 2nd yellow was that it was pretty much identical to the one Onana didn't get at Everton. So consistent. Consistently wrong but consistent.
True, but Onana didn't have 2-3 other potential yellows as well. The foul on McGinn that the ref didn't even give as a free kick and the kicking the ball away could both easily have been given.
I've said many times I think there are too many yellow cards given in football which has rendered them meaningless but unless that does change and the threshold is raised significantly there needs to be more consistency. Bankes created all the problems in that match yesterday because the players couldn't know what he expected from them as he just seemed to make it up in the moment.
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Rogers got a yellow, with no previous, for the exact foul Alvarez then didn't get booked for. This was after kicking the ball away and committing several other fouls. That's not hard to call, it's doing your basic duty.
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The Arsenal one was hardly the worst sending off ever, it was clearly a yellow card, possibly an "orange", and granted it's a harsh red, but hardly a miscarriage of justice, the kid made no attempt at getting the ball, and could have done real damage to the opposition player, it's not too different to McGinn's v Spurs last season.
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The Arsenal one was hardly the worst sending off ever, it was clearly a yellow card, possibly an "orange", and granted it's a harsh red, but hardly a miscarriage of justice, the kid made no attempt at getting the ball, and could have done real damage to the opposition player, it's not too different to McGinn's v Spurs last season.
Yep, agree with you.
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It's the reason why I'd like them to explain their decisions like they do in the NFL.
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Following the advent of VAR, the chicanery by the PGMOL has been bewildering in order to protect their charges. Dictats about various rules, lasting as previously pointed out for two weeks before being quietly forgotten, identical incidents having two separate outcomes but then being defended as both correct (Tamworth V Spurs FK that lead to the first goal), the handball nonsense, kicking the ball away a yellow one minute then not the next, all in wrestling being permitted in the area and what were previously standard fouls now deemed a fair challenge (Cash at Forest). I don't actually know what constitutes a foul anymore which is of little consequence but I don't think the refs do either and that's what prompts the howls of dismay.
VAR, while not ultimately to blame, has had the unintended consequence of making things much, much worse. Over used on one hand, underused on the other.
What a fucking mess.
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Good summary that Nev.
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The most ludicrous situation last night, and there were many, was when the ref had to be reminded that the West Ham player had to leave the pitch after receiving treatment. When a referee can't even apply the very basic of rules, you've got no hope with anything else.
Last night was a prime example of someone way out of his depth. He wasn't helped by his assistants. Anyone assessing that performance would flag that as a concern. But I'm sure he got a 5 star rating from his mates.
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The biggest farce is whenever officials battery packs run out and they have to reattach them. It's actually such poor form.Flying drones would be better at overseeing matches. No need for any sort of ref on the pitch.
They can be in the stadium watching on screen instead of Stockley Park but let the tech do the majority of the control. The tech can alert the official for decisions that need to be checked on screen and for a human to come on to pitch where really necessary.
It's ridiculous the way drones are treated in football laws as if its above a stadium the officials currently have to stop the game.
The Prem of course will be the last ones to introduce it of all top flight leagues in Europe.
I mean we are still waiting on SAOT - semi automated tech for offsides.
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You just new it, Woolwich appeal upheld. Fucking ******, now try and say that there is no bias.
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The little snide kicked someone off the ball, it was a red card.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
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I had seen it had been overturned. The released documents will be interesting but I was expecting it after they overturned the Everton players last season when he went over the ball with his foot. However it has also shown up the PGMOL for telling VAR to back up the on-field decisions as much as possible, the same as when Duran was sent off.
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I watched a bit of the Chelsea v Arsenal WSL on Sunday. One of the Arsenal players got sent off for foul and abusive language. Think it was a straight red as well.
May the PL should take note.
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He was having a bad game and i think he knew it, went to pieces a little bit. Just a bit weird that everything seemed to go against us.
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I watched a bit of the Chelsea v Arsenal WSL on Sunday. One of the Arsenal players got sent off for foul and abusive language. Think it was a straight red as well.
May the PL should take note.
It will just be like the previous stuff like booking players surrounding the ref, yet 10 players were crowding the Arse ref Saturday and nothing.
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So Arseanal get the red overturned shock horror . If it was us or a Palace or Fulham you just now the decision gets upheld.
Every week we have Arsenal players and arteta reffing the game in the real refs face , all goes unpunished . Scandalous.
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So Arseanal get the red overturned shock horror . If it was us or a Palace or Fulham you just now the decision gets upheld.
Every week we have Arsenal players and arteta reffing the game in the real refs face , all goes unpunished . Scandalous.
Of course, that doesn't work for the Calvin-Lewis overturn that happened last season with a similar challenge. Unless you believe the FA have an agenda with Dyche's Everton at the time.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
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I can see why it was overturned, I don’t like the cynical challenges but it wasn’t dangerous to me. I still think JD’s one was debatable, but either way it’s not a conspiracy. At worst it’s incompetence or alternatively it is subjective.
What shouldn’t be lost in all this the teams and some of the managers are massively responsible for the toxicity that exists around all this stuff - which I think ultimately has a knock-on impact to quality of decision making.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
Yes , I'm highlighting the part you ignored too .
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I can see why it was overturned, I don’t like the cynical challenges but it wasn’t dangerous to me. I still think JD’s one was debatable, but either way it’s not a conspiracy. At worst it’s incompetence or alternatively it is subjective.
What shouldn’t be lost in all this the teams and some of the managers are massively responsible for the toxicity that exists around all this stuff - which I think ultimately has a knock-on impact to quality of decision making.
Exactly , Declan Rice plus others squeezing and in the refs face .
Also the Newcastle players who got in the refs face for Duran incident , the keeper ran 40 yards , Joelinton of all people demonstrating and getting the imaginary card out .
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
Yes , I'm highlighting the part you ignored too .
And I didn't disagree with that. I pretty much stated the same in the post before yours.
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I don't see Everton players reffing games every week like Arseanal players do.
You can see the bit I highlighted and was replying to.
Yes , I'm highlighting the part you ignored too .
And I didn't disagree with that. I pretty much stated the same in the post before yours.
I think these players need dealing with , and it is really prevalent with Arsenal , Liverpool are bad too .
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
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If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How tat may,or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
And as he states he has had shitloads of abuse most of his life for just being a ref, a bad one most times but still I expect the abuse has probably been well over the top for what is after all just a sport.
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You just new it, Woolwich appeal upheld. Fucking ******, now try and say that there is no bias.
Pisses me off
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You just new it, Woolwich appeal upheld. Fucking ******, now try and say that there is no bias.
100% bias .
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Arteta saying we should ‘get the hate out of the game” following abuse the ref got from arsenal fans. The absolute hypocrisy of that is astounding.
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I hate Arteta and that's not changing any time soon.
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Arteta saying we should ‘get the hate out of the game” following abuse the ref got from arsenal fans. The absolute hypocrisy of that is astounding.
A neck of the purest brass, but then the spittle flecked abuse meted out by that Whiskey faced bastard at Newton Heath is always overlooked and even laughed at via "Fergie Time". Every time I hear that fucking phrase I think of what could've been.
Shower of bastards, the lot of em.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
Quite, so the individual questioning it is taking a strange position on this.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
Quite, so the individual questioning it is taking a strange position on this.
Yes we don’t know if it’s true or a way of deflecting his behavior.
To be honest I don’t really care, he was a Twat of a ref and did us no favours whatsoever.
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Gay or straight Coote was crap and fuck off.
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It may have been a harsh red card for Arsenal but Skelly definitely showed more intention to foul than Duran but he's just a young lad so it's ok
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I'm not sure what Coote did wrong, until being overly generous to Liverpool as he knew the story was breaking.
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I'm not sure what Coote did wrong, until being overly generous to Liverpool as he knew the story was breaking.
Brentford away.
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Everton away, Brighton at home.
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Not sure if you're allowed to praise refs on this thread, anyway thought he was ok last night.
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Clement Turpin is one of the best if not thee best there is currently.
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Clement Turpin is one of the best if not thee best there is currently.
Looked to let the game flow last night I thought? Obviously knew the context of the match etc
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I thought he was too lenient. Can't remember any particularly egregious decisions, but no persistent fouling booking was shocking.
Still, I'd definitely rather have that than the cheat we had against Juventus.
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Not sure if you're allowed to praise refs on this thread, anyway thought he was ok last night.
Was just saying that in the post match thread. I thought he was good probably one of the best we have had all season.
Let the game flow, didnt give needless yellows and i thought was just very good.
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Celtic got away with breaking up play way too many times. Should have started dishing the yellows so we could break their tackles without pre historic jocks pulling us down every 30 seconds.
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I'd love to see the correlation between ref scores / perceived performance and results of the team.
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I thought the referee last night was very good…he was giving the fouls that were fouls and whilst I would have liked to have seen a few cards for those fouls he was consistent for both sides. Personally I thought he was easily the best we have seen this season in any competition
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I thought the referee last night was very good…he was giving the fouls that were fouls and whilst I would have liked to have seen a few cards for those fouls he was consistent for both sides. Personally I thought he was easily the best we have seen this season in any competition
Agreed. I’ve been critical of other referees in this thread, so only fair to recognise a good one when we see one.
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Arsenal have been charged over surrounding the ref on Saturday.
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Arsenal have been charged over surrounding the ref on Saturday.
They’ll appeal and receive a full apology for the ref standing in their way as they tried to line up and defend the free kick
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Andy madley for the Wolves game
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Andy madley for the Wolves game
Truly?
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Andy madley for the Wolves game
Truly?
Deeply
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I thought the referee last night was very good…he was giving the fouls that were fouls and whilst I would have liked to have seen a few cards for those fouls he was consistent for both sides. Personally I thought he was easily the best we have seen this season in any competition
Agreed. I’ve been critical of other referees in this thread, so only fair to recognise a good one when we see one.
Overall he had a good game. Agree about the number of fouls Celtic committed and got away with.
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I must say that i hardly noticed who the ref was - that is always a sign of a great performance as he let the game flow.
Better than the attention seeking knobheads we have in the prem
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I think the only frustration with him was the rotational and persistent fouling particularly the guy man marking Ramsey. Other than that he was very very good. I listened to the The Villa Podcast earlier with the two Irish lads and they reckon he’s been the best ref in Europe for the past few seasons and has been unlucky to not get some of the biggest games/finals.
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Arsenal have been charged over surrounding the ref on Saturday.
Correctly so. Doesn't matter if you perceive a decision to be incorrect, its no excuse.
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I agree, just some posters were adamant they weren't even getting charged for it. Although the ref should have shown them cards on the day.
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I've been reading about David Coote.
Lianne Sanderson former player now pundit who is a lesbian
'David Coote opening up about his sexuality and The timing really bothers me because it has 0 to do with his actions and why he got sacked.'
I think spot on by Lianne.
This ref sites his same men sexualities impact his behaviour and drug taking.
That he reveals struggles with his sexuality led to ‘really poor choices’
Coote said he was gay in first interview since dismissal
‘I hid my emotions as a young ref and my sexuality as well
I’ve had issues around my self-esteem – and that relates to my sexuality. I’m gay and I’ve struggled with feeling proud of being ‘me’
If you're a gay man involved in football, a sport where nobody ever reveals their true self, because of the horrendous discrimination that still exists, then there will be untold pressure. How that may, or may not, affect someone is something we won't know.
Quite, so the individual questioning it is taking a strange position on this.
Other than including the word 'German' in front of '******', I can't say I'm really bothered about anything Coote has said or done.
He may have been a shit ref, god knows, I don't know one from the other.
But personally I'm not too fussed about whether he does coke or gets drunk and calls a certified ****** a ******.
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They are ruining the game,another absolute shit show of individual errors and a bent VAR intervention.
No one knows what the laws are anymore or more accurately when and how the laws will be applied.
It can not just be incompetence, it must be deliberate either to sensetialise the game or for more sinister reasons,
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Back to my perennial rant about how PGMOL needs to be disbanded and the FA should use overseas officials should be used, such as M. Turpin from the Celtic game, until something else is implemented. It'll never happen though
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Another game, another woeful decision.
Pre VAR you could accept that people make mistakes but how on earth do they explain these weekly decisions now?
It’s not just the odd one, it’s every week and there’s no excuse for it. No consistency, total confusion amongst the players and fans and they’ve even confused themselves.
What a shambles!
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We aren’t allowed call stuff corrupt, apparently.
But the way that the officials cover their own ineptitude and mistakes, that looks and smells like corruption to me
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Watched the replay first time and it looked good and fair so I knew they'd disallow it as there's always some bizarre interpretation they cook up to cover their mates arse.
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We aren’t allowed call stuff corrupt, apparently.
But the way that the officials cover their own ineptitude and mistakes, that looks and smells like corruption to me
It is.
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The Malen goal was offside. Rogers was stood offside and his only role in that routine was to disrupt Semedo and buy McGinn a yard or two of space. Naive for McPhee to think that wouldn't get pulled up
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We aren’t allowed call stuff corrupt, apparently.
But the way that the officials cover their own ineptitude and mistakes, that looks and smells like corruption to me
I don’t think referee’s are corrupt, I just think they’ve tied themselves in knots and now don’t have a clue how to use the laws of the game.
Each referee uses their own interpretation of the laws and it’s as clear as day this total confusion has lead us to where we are today.
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I'm interested to know what the talent pathway is for match officials. I know that back in the day it was all about politicking at the local referees' associations; paying your dues by running the line at midweek Midland Combination reserve fixtures and eventually getting to ref in the Central League or whatever before making the league list. How does it work nowadays?
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I'm interested to know what the talent pathway is for match officials. I know that back in the day it was all about politicking at the local referees' associations; paying your dues by running the line at midweek Midland Combination reserve fixtures and eventually getting to ref in the Central League or whatever before making the league list. How does it work nowadays?
Really interesting question.
Referees (and ARs) that are keen to progress have development plans, targets, coaches, and mentors. They are also ranked and assessed regularly.
I was at an event on Friday evening where one speaker was a AR (linesman) in the EFL. He's ambitious to get on the PL list and spoke about how he was ranked in the top 20 EFL ARs and then had a mare at one game and dropped sixty-odd places - something that, in his view, has set him back a few years.
It means that match officials that want to get can be singularly focused on their reputation.
They all know that if a game passes without incident, they don't get a particularly good mark - prompting some (it is suggested) to quietly wind players up in order to get a visible reaction that they can then sanction, i.e., being "seen to do a good job" as opposed to just doing a good job. IMO it inevitably encourages the wrong behaviours.
The increasing professionalism of match officials comes with issues. The PGMOL and international bodies have become obsessed (IMO) with 'managing the game' as opposed to refereeing the game.
The latter is about being as unobtrusive as possible, ensuring the laws are applied, and having an understanding of what players and coaches do and why (the difference between serious intent and a mistimed tackle, time-wasting, etc.).
'Managing the game' leads them to interfere in every aspect of what happens to prove that they are in charge, in control. It's this mentality that plays into their view that they never get anything wrong - prompting VAR officials to back rather than correct wrong onfield decisions.
The view that they are responsible for 'managing the game' also means they make decisions about how football is played - as evidenced by the PGMOL giving directives about the interpretation of the laws. For example, this season we will "let more go" or whatever.
All match officials have to follow the directives from the PGMOL or risk being marked down and not being retained at a particular level.
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Interesting. Thank you for such a detailed response.
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What has also blown my mind chatting to match officials in the EFL and ambitious young referees - in advance of a game, they do research on the teams and players.
It's claimed that they will perform better if they understand what the team formation will be, which striker might be on a hot streak of scoring goals, and which players have attacted the most cautions so far in the season. :o
The people that have told me this, including a now retired PL referee, were quick to insist that it doesn't mean they are at risk of applying confirmation bias, but to me, it absolutely has to increase the risk.
Plus, how does it help? When they get a teamsheet, do they really say, "well if they change from 4-4-2 to 3-5-1-1, I need to referee the game differently".
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Back to my perennial rant about how PGMOL needs to be disbanded and the FA should use overseas officials should be used, such as M. Turpin from the Celtic game, until something else is implemented. It'll never happen though
I wouldn’t say disbanded…needs Webb removing and the top brass being independent of refs ie not their mates and VAR needs to be treated as a job with operatives that aren’t refs on their day off trying to protect their mates.
We shouldn’t be importing refs either, our league is no more important than anyone other countries league….we need to improve standard of our officials.
VAR has been a convenient excuse for PGMOL to sit behind when in reality our officials have not been improving…need to improve and focus on performance of officials not just the application or not of VAR
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We need to stop demanding perfection* and they need to stop making politician-style claims of infallibility.
* More accurately, claiming every decision against us is a corrupt travesty while every bit of gamesmanship, shithousery and cheating by us is clever.
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Awkward. On Ref Watch yesterday Dermot - assisted by Warnock and Sue Snith - use the Forest disallowed goal v Southampton where Chris Woods was offside but didn't play the ball - as justification for Malen's goal being disallowed. Today the PGMOL have come out and listed it as one of 4 VAR 'mistakes' this season and said it should have stood as Wood didn't play the ball.
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Awkward. On Ref Watch yesterday Dermot - assisted by Warnock and Sue Snith - use the Forest disallowed goal v Southampton where Chris Woods was offside but didn't play the ball - as justification for Malen's goal being disallowed. Today the PGMOL have come out and listed it as one of 4 VAR 'mistakes' this season and said it should have stood as Wood didn't play the ball.
A fine example of how they tie themselves in knots. Apparently VAR is getting better though. They've marked their own homework again yesterday and useage is slightly up with errors down. A+ given by themselves.
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They detail 4 errors but I can’t find the 9 non intervention mistakes listed anywhere.
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The interference was subjective in this case and that is what makes it all flawed. Mr Rednapp perfectly illustrated the point that there was no real interference as Semedo was getting nowhere near McGinn even we assume Rogers poleaxed him which he certainly did not. If it is Liverpool at Wolves that is getting allowed.
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The interference was subjective in this case and that is what makes it all flawed. Mr Rednapp perfectly illustrated the point that there was no real interference as Semedo was getting nowhere near McGinn even we assume Rogers poleaxed him which he certainly did not. If it is Liverpool at Wolves that is getting allowed.
The final bit, all day long.
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VAR just allows a double layer of bias. If you get past the refs you then have to get past full kit wanker watching slow mos.
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To use a boxing analogy first used by Terry Downes when talking about boxing I the US "Over there you have to knock 'em out to get a draw".
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Is Dermot still a ref? Just wondering how he has heard the VAR broadcasts or do the studio people hear those anyway? However I did raise that it a lot of the decision depended on the way the call was made. I still would have preferred the ref to make the final call though.
As for the "independent" decision that the Woods call was wrong, I would have actually stated it was offside anyway as he does push ahead of the defender from an offside position AND went for the ball as well so I'm not sure where they think that was a wrong call.
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Is Dermot still a ref? Just wondering how he has heard the VAR broadcasts or do the studio people hear those anyway? However I did raise that it a lot of the decision depended on the way the call was made. I still would have preferred the ref to make the final call though.
As for the "independent" decision that the Woods call was wrong, I would have actually stated it was offside anyway as he does push ahead of the defender from an offside position AND went for the ball as well so I'm not sure where they think that was a wrong call.
He does Skys ref watch on a Monday so he has the inside track of what the PGMOL brief him to say each week. Invariably he backs the officials decisions or if he is being controversial says it’s open to interpretation :-)
Paid to mark your own homework :-)
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Simon Hooper the ref in the semi final of the league cup announcing decisions to the stadium
Its a good move to see.
He announced that Isak was offside pointing at him and the decision of an indirect free kick.
I like this.
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Simon Hooper the ref in the semi final of the league cup announcing decisions to the stadium
Its a good move to see.
He announced that Isak was offside pointing at him and the decision of an indirect free kick.
I like this.
I saw this.
It happened.
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TBH, it is pretty shite really. I want them miked up for any requests / discussions live. I don't want to know the decision at the end when for most decisions it is very obvious anyway.
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
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I don't want to hear refs shagging thanks.
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For Heavens sake!
Intercourse means communication or dealings between individuals or groups.
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
Filth. Try and keep it clean on here.
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Groups? Disgusting!
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
Filth. Try and keep it clean on here.
Yes exactly.
See above as what intercourse is.
It’s clear trying to debate and discuss but it’s others who are bringing a sense of vulgarism.
It’s not a peep show for refs that people are after and Drummond is being overly crude and twisting it!
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Yes the whole exchange of intercourse between officials should be announced and heard -but it’s a start.
Filth. Try and keep it clean on here.
Yes exactly.
See above as what intercourse is.
It’s clear trying to debate and discuss but it’s others who are bringing a sense of vulgarism.
It’s not a peep show for refs that people are after and Drummond is being overly crude and twisting it!
Drummond needs to withdraw.
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Twisting it? That sounds painful...
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Villa v Spurs
Official Antony Taylor
Has ref one game for Villa this season and he sent off Duran v Newcastle on Boxing Day
He also ref Spurs v Chelsea this season giving two penalties against Spurs for Chelsea
There is No VAR today but there will be goal line tech:
VAR technology to only be introduced from the fifth round onwards to ensure a "consistent refereeing approach for all clubs taking part in the same stage of the competition".
Because of infrastructure and operational costs, VAR had previously only been used at Premier League grounds, and at Wembley in the FA Cup semi-finals and final.
However, to confuse matters, goalline technology has been in use at Premier League and Championship grounds - where the infrastructure exists - in this year's competition, despite not being available everywhere.
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Thought the ref had a good game today
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Yellow cards could have been earlier for some of their midfield, but I suspect we might have had some too if he had. Also could have been a pen right at the end there.
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Thought the ref had a good game today
Same here, might have booked Bergvall a bit earlier and it was a foul on Rashford outside the box but that was about it.
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He was fine. There were plenty of 50:50 calls but the game flowed and I thought his refereeing supported the game in a balanced way.
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He was fine. There were plenty of 50:50 calls but the game flowed and I thought his refereeing supported the game in a balanced way.
Yep, I thought Anthony Taylor was fine as well. Thought he was lenient with the yellow cards, but he was consistent with it in all fairness.
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Should have stopped the game a lot sooner for Digne’s head injury. Fine apart from that.
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The only inconsistency for me was not giving a free kick on the edge of the box when their guy tangled legs with Rashford but them giving them a free kick when the same happened with Bogarde and Tel. Very similar challenges in almost exactly the same place so not sure how he saw them differently.
Obviously he was poor with the Digne injury, it should never have been left long enough for them to recycle it and get a cross in.
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The only inconsistency for me was not giving a free kick on the edge of the box when their guy tangled legs with Rashford but them giving them a free kick when the same happened with Bogarde and Tel. Very similar challenges in almost exactly the same place so not sure how he saw them differently.
Obviously he was poor with the Digne injury, it should never have been left long enough for them to recycle it and get a cross in.
Tangle of legs? He dived in and took him out in a fit of rage after being 'megged. Blatant.
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The only inconsistency for me was not giving a free kick on the edge of the box when their guy tangled legs with Rashford but them giving them a free kick when the same happened with Bogarde and Tel. Very similar challenges in almost exactly the same place so not sure how he saw them differently.
Obviously he was poor with the Digne injury, it should never have been left long enough for them to recycle it and get a cross in.
Tangle of legs? He dived in and took him out in a fit of rage after being 'megged. Blatant.
I was being kind
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Another strange refereeing performance against Ipswich which asks questions of the laws brought in to stop time wasting.
He allowed the keeper to waste time throughout the game and kept pointing at his watch, acknowledging he knew what was going on. I expected 6/7 minutes to be added not the 4 considering everything that went on.
4 seems to be the amount added when nothing has gone on and especially when he was also the cause of a lot of it by the ridiculous chats he had at with players at corners and free kicks.
Have we had another about turn by the PGMOL or is this another game where the referee has been incompetent?
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I said on the post match thread that there would've been double the time added on if the game was at Anfield (or 'the Etihad' / 'the Emirates') and I stand by that.
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
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The players seem to think they are untouchable. The referees have a lot to deal with. Especially with the trend of players throwing themselves to the ground at the slightest puff of air. They appear to have been shot by some sniper. If the referee gives nothing they are up and racing back up the pitch. They seem to do this more when they have made some kind of mistake. I was watching some old Big Match games the pitches were like Flanders and the tackles were flying in with no one rolling around like they’d been shot.
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The ref at Liverpool was poor today: 2 penalties awarded, neither correctly; one overturned by VAR.
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The ref at Liverpool was poor today: 2 penalties awarded, neither correctly; one overturned by VAR.
Noticeable how he stopped giving Wolves any free-kicks when they got back into it and had Liverpool under pressure. Carragher's commentary also.took a turn at that point as well.
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
I have a completely different memory of this incident! I am pretty sure he shoved past the referee but dawdled to the Witton Lane side as he had been instructed to do!
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
I have a completely different memory of this incident! I am pretty sure he shoved past the referee but dawdled to the Witton Lane side as he had been instructed to do!
It was Omari Hutchinson being subbed right at the end. PeterWithe’s recollection is correct.
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Another strange one was when he told their subbed player to leave the field on the Witton Lane side, he ignored him shoved past and dawdled over to the other side with a yellow card being waved. The ref not insisting on him leaving the field where he was told is pretty pitiful, no wonder players think they can get away with murder.
I have a completely different memory of this incident! I am pretty sure he shoved past the referee but dawdled to the Witton Lane side as he had been instructed to do!
It was Omari Hutchinson being subbed right at the end. PeterWithe’s recollection is correct.
Fair enough! The one I remember must have been earlier on in the game, unless I've got that wrong as well. I do have quite a track record for getting things wrong - I blame my age
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Officials for next 3 games
Liverpool Ref:Pawson. VAR: Alex Chilowicz
Chelsea Ref: Oliver. VAR Paul Tierney
Crystal Palace : Sam Barrat VAR:Jarred Gillet
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Alex Chilowicz:
some more background on Tonight’s VAR. an American association football referee working in the English Football League since 2023. He was previously employed by PRO and officiated in Major League Soccer (MLS) between 2017 and 2023.
Outside of refereeing, Chilowicz works as a musician, with credits in television and film as well as on Broadway!
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I thought the officials were awful again last night.
The amount of times Van Dijk went straight through Watkins and was unbelievably unpunished was laughable
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The eternally cheerful & way off the speed of the modern game Keith Hackett thinks Disasi should have been sent off after his 'clash' with Mac Allister.
If someone's got you in a bear hug what the hell are you supposed to do? Mac Allister should have been booked to IMO.
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The letting the game go seems to mean you can pull push shove with impunity.
Except if the ref wants to influence the game and can penalise one team but not the other.
We have gone from not understanding what constitutes handball to what is a foul.
Its a real mess.
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
They did, and still got it wrong again.
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Michael Oliver was shocking yesterday. And he's reckoned to be one of the top PL referees! We should've had a penalty for the Bogarde incident. VAR is useless!
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
They did, and still got it wrong again.
Dermot Gallagher's usual defence is " both players were holding and pushing but the defender let's go before the ball in in play" Ckearly that one is not going to work here so I think they will just ignore it. Sky didn't seem to refer when talking about Villa after the game although may have covered it later. Clearly and Obviously this wasn't 50/50 with Cucerellas holding being ongoing and including a pull back as Bogarde tried to reach the ball. I can only think the looked at one view and decide no pen whereas the view from behind the goal leaves no doubt. Still it's only Villa!
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Just seen that MOTD didn't discuss after the match. It was included in the match coverage where the commentator refers to the holding and then immediately says VAR have checked it " no penalty". Maybe had we not won they might have reflected on it but I wouldn't put money on it!
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VAR took an eternity looking at the first goal looking for a reason to disallow a perfectly good goal, then within a blink of an eye they dismissed the penalty incident even though it was nailed on. Absolute joke.
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I saw the Bogarde one back on motd. How they decided it wasn't a penalty is laughable.
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https://x.com/avfcstatto/status/1893427542012334303?s=61&t=5gNHKFDBiIG50p8ei1L0Vg
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Another terrible refereeing performance yesterday. There was a ruling this season that tactical fouling would be stamped out. I’ve seen it happening in some games where refs have acted. Then, as per the time wasting rule, some decide it’s not for them.
As with the Ipswich game, instead of booking players for time wasting they stand there pointing at their watches and don’t issue yellow cards. Yesterday the tactical fouling was allowed for some time before cards were pulled out.
Then there’s the penalty, what more can you say other than whoever makes these decisions need removing.
They are still unaccountable and role of their mates on TV to back them thinking we can’t see and have no idea about the game.
I’m not one of them, and don’t believe it, but you can see why people shout about corruption. It’s frustration that makes fans shout that but it’s just pure and simple incompetence at every level.
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I saw the Bogarde one back on motd. How they decided it wasn't a penalty is laughable.
Same just now. It's outrageous.
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How the heck did VAR not review the incident on Bogarde?
They did, and still got it wrong again.
If they did, it was for a millisecond. Meanwhile they took an eternity to figure out Rashford was onside, when it was one of the most obvious onside decisions ever.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but incompetence only explains so much.
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I saw the Bogarde one back on motd. How they decided it wasn't a penalty is laughable.
It's not just that they didn't give the penalty it was how quickly they dismissed it. Almost as if the outcome had already been decided. I can not for the life of me see why anyone who's ever watched a game of football and has a pair of functioning eyes wouldn't give a penalty. Chelsea AND Man U both getting a clear helping hand from PMGOL this weekend. Something is starting to smell a bit iffy.
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2 other things that refs have stopped acting on:
- kicking the ball away from a set piece was being yellow-carded earlier in the season (Declan Rice picked up 2nd yellow / red card for it, for example). Not now, it seems (a couple of incidents in the Jawdie-Forest really exemplified how refs are now not acting).
- managers are now seemingly allowed to stand outside the designated rectangle in front of the dug-outs. Maresca constantly did it yesterday; Guardiola has been doing it during the current game.
These unofficial changes - like the movement of set pieces and throw-ins, and not retreating 10 yards at set pieces - are eroding further the confidence in refs. It's all really crap.
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Also adding on time at the end to deter time wasting. We had a few weeks of 8-10 minutes added on and now it’s 3 or 4. That Newcastle game was a 6er at least.
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I know refereeing is a thankless task but currently the standard is unacceptable.
If you google who is the PGMOL accountable to that partially explains the issue.
It must change and very quickly.
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What the answer? The Premier League?
I think officials need to stand down more if they are poor. We should also use foreign refs too.
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The problem with some VAR decisions is knowing what the ref stated to them. Because that is what they have to show the ref got wrong for them to send him to a monitor.
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Surely the only thing that matters is getting the correct decision! Obvious errors etc is a load of bollocks.
Get the decision right, every time. Obvious ball out, corner/goalkick, blatant dives could all be dealt with by a quick word from the VAR. It would soon start to improve the overall game.
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If being a referee is a job and the referee trains as a referee then being a VAR is also a job and should be treated as such not just a referee on a day off.
It’s too cozy in the PGMOL
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But that would take ages (the VAR checking everything).
I actually think VAR is a good thing (remember the poor FA cup decisions?) but it needs consistent application. The Ashley Ypu g incident is a classic example where the bloke in the booths disagreed with the original decision, but subjectively, so should have been left as on field. Showing the ref the same thing again didn’t add anything other than to pressure him in to changing his mind.
They also need that automatic offside thing sorted.
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For the Young thing, I think the ref would have stated "Penalty for the pull back by Maguire" which is why I think they called him back to the screens to show Young was going down as that happened. He never mentioned the shirt pull as he hadn't spotted it so they didn't show him that. But as referees they should have seen that on review and left the onfield decision to stand anyway, or properly showed all the incident and not the cherry picked views.
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Wonder if anybody will produce an end of season compendium of PGMOL/VAR's Greatest Shits?
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For the Young thing, I think the ref would have stated "Penalty for the pull back by Maguire" which is why I think they called him back to the screens to show Young was going down as that happened. He never mentioned the shirt pull as he hadn't spotted it so they didn't show him that. But as referees they should have seen that on review and left the onfield decision to stand anyway, or properly showed all the incident and not the cherry picked views.
That would have needed editing Spielberg would have been proud of.
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Surely the only thing that matters is getting the correct decision! Obvious errors etc is a load of bollocks.
Get the decision right, every time. Obvious ball out, corner/goalkick, blatant dives could all be dealt with by a quick word from the VAR. It would soon start to improve the overall game.
Exactly, let the people who get 4-5 angles and multiple replays make decisions. There's an argument it slows the game down but our first goal yesterday is a perfect example of why it's bollocks. That should've taken a few seconds to confirm but, because the goal was disallowed on the field, they had to jump through hoops checking everything before awarding it.
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For the Young thing, I think the ref would have stated "Penalty for the pull back by Maguire" which is why I think they called him back to the screens to show Young was going down as that happened. He never mentioned the shirt pull as he hadn't spotted it so they didn't show him that. But as referees they should have seen that on review and left the onfield decision to stand anyway, or properly showed all the incident and not the cherry picked views.
That would have needed editing Spielberg would have been proud of.
On what they showed the ref? Not really as they only showed him the camera angles which didn't show the initial shirt pull, but the Maguire pull back / Young collapse. The TV studios see the footage the ref is shown, plus they also had the camera on him and the screen.
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So Young's shirt was being pulled to stop him falling over?
How thoughtful and kind of the United defenders.
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What the answer? The Premier League?
I think officials need to stand down more if they are poor. We should also use foreign refs too.
If anything the foreign refs are even worse based on standards in the Champions and Conference League we've seen
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I disagree but there you go.
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The Juventus one was the biggest cheat all season.
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The Juventus one was the biggest cheat all season.
Serves Juventus right for being dumped out of the Champions League!
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Yep, I wasn't shedding any tears, even though it probably helps Arsenal.
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Using foreign refs is defeating the object for me - we need to make ours better and hold PGMOL to account for the fact they haven’t improved particularly whilst they have been able to hide behind the implementation of VAR.
Getting the correct decision is obviously the end goal but very little beyond offsides and goal line tech has the ability to be factual so the process to judge subjective decisions has to be clear and everyone has to have confidence in the competence of those making those subjective calls…that is what is lacking.
Nonsense like the audio of the Duran red shows there is still so far for them to come to even be adequate let alone correct…
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My main concern is that they defend the indefensible rather than holding their hands up from time to time.
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It has many flaws but I do think VAR has evened up the playing field on biased decisions in favour of the usual suspects. I know it doesn't seem like that at times but it definitely has in my opinion.
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How often do you see a ball sail out of play and within a micro second VAR could say GK or Corner, the ball hasn't even landed but the ref can indicate the correct outcome! Same with blatant dives they could soon be stamped out following a couple of Yellow/Red cards.
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
Gallagher looks like a hedgehog as there's so many splinters sticking out of his arse, he's not sitting on the fence there he's grinding it.
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The key word Dermot used there is ‘probably’
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Warnock is the only one worth watching on that show. Sue Smith is pleasant but inoffensive and just reminds me of that Fast Show bloke who agrees with everybody. Gallagher’s a prick.
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
If you're half a yard in front of the defender you're not reaching back to grab him and bring him closer. Do these gimps have a brain between them?
Fucking arse biscuits the lot of it.
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Warnock is the only one worth watching on that show. Sue Smith is pleasant but inoffensive and just reminds me of that Fast Show bloke who agrees with everybody. Gallagher’s a prick.
Sue Smith was the first one to say it was a penalty.
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Just been watching the Young explanation and as mentioned, it seems that VAR were calling the ref back for the foul called on Maguire as the clear error, without even thinking he missed the initial shirt pull, which is a clear error.
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This the ref watch view of it. Disappointed that Dermot Gallagher cant bring himself to come right and say the wrong decision was made but at least Stephen Warnock who is usually fair all round calls it for what it is. Overall though it feels a bit like why bother it's only Villa
Were Villa denied a penalty for Cucurella challenge?
INCIDENT: Were Aston Villa wrongly denied a penalty after Marc Cucurella pulled Lamare Bogarde down in the box?
DERMOT SAYS: "He grabs hold of him. Does he grab hold of him enough? It looks pretty damning. I don't know why he takes a chance like that.
"The more you analyse things, the more things jump out of you. You look at the last picture and it does Cucurella no favours. The referee probably thought Cucurella was grabbed first and that's why they ended up arm in arm.
STEPHEN WARNOCK SAYS: "If the ball is one yard away from you and you're in front of a defender and you can't get to that one yard to kick a ball, you've been held back.
"It's more than fleeting. That's a hold. A pull. They missed one there."
If you're half a yard in front of the defender you're not reaching back to grab him and bring him closer. Do these gimps have a brain between them?
Fucking arse biscuits the lot of it.
It is the lamest of excuses for a supposedly top Premier referee. Besides, it's a clear case of an obvious error by the ref so why didn't VAR spend another minute on the incident? You can be sure if it was the other way round they'd have given it far more time.
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Just been watching the Young explanation and as mentioned, it seems that VAR were calling the ref back for the foul called on Maguire as the clear error, without even thinking he missed the initial shirt pull, which is a clear error.
Without hearing the comms it's difficult to know what he actually gave the penalty for. If he did miss the shirt pulling surely they should be showing him the footage that shows it. Unless as I suspect they were just going through the motions because ultimately they didn't want the penalty to stand.
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Comms when released will be more obvious but Sky pointed out the VAR Twitter account specifically mentioned the foul by MAGUIRE and all visuals were just on the Maguire contact.
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Comms when released will be more obvious but Sky pointed out the VAR Twitter account specifically mentioned the foul by MAGUIRE and all visuals were just on the Maguire contact.
So they decided to ignore the actual reason to give a penalty in the first place. An absolute cop out.
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Comms when released will be more obvious but Sky pointed out the VAR Twitter account specifically mentioned the foul by MAGUIRE and all visuals were just on the Maguire contact.
So they decided to ignore the actual reason to give a penalty in the first place. An absolute cop out.
Even Dermot agrees that they cocked up massively by just looking at what the ref called the penalty on without also stating he shirt pull. NOW the ref might have stated he saw the shirt pull and didn't think that was a foul but Maguire's contact was, which is why the comms being released is needed.
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Its a case of "how can we spin this to make us look less bad".
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It doesn't matter who replaces Dermot Gallagher they would never come out and openly admit the referee/VAR was wrong. It's a closed shop and they circle the wagons. Dermot Gallagher is a nice bloke btw.
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It's rare for any of these shows to criticise anyone properly.
The whole VAR thing is bollocks.
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Thing I find frustrating is all the stats they give on whether VAR made the correct decision is all bollocks and massively skews the figures they use to assess how well it’s doing.
Two BIG potentially match defining moments that won’t go down as errors on their reporting.
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It doesn't matter who replaces Dermot Gallagher they would never come out and openly admit the referee/VAR was wrong. It's a closed shop and they circle the wagons. Dermot Gallagher is a nice bloke btw.
I agree with you that Dermot is a nice guy but how the hell does a professional referee - albeit a former referee - and not see the clear holding and pull back? It's incredulous that he questions - is it enough? Of course it fucking is!
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It doesn't matter who replaces Dermot Gallagher they would never come out and openly admit the referee/VAR was wrong. It's a closed shop and they circle the wagons. Dermot Gallagher is a nice bloke btw.
I agree with you that Dermot is a nice guy but how the hell does a professional referee - albeit a former referee - and not see the clear holding and pull back? It's incredulous that he questions - is it enough? Of course it fucking is!
He does see it, it's just as I alluded to, he isn't going to rock the boat. I think it's possible that I imagined it but felt it was tongue in cheek and he was having trouble keeping a straight face.
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Ref Watch:
INCIDENT: In Aston Villa's win over Brentford, Thomas Frank felt his side should have had at least one penalty.
The first on Kevin Schade he was most convinced about, with Matty Cash and Axel Disasi involved.
There was then another challenge from Disasi on Schade later in the game, which also went unpunished.
Dermot Gallagher says: Because Cash heads the ball [for the first incident], the referee gives a corner. He says he's cleared the ball.
When the second Villa player comes in, he thinks he's slipped into him, and Cash clearly heads the ball out for a corner. He does that before the collision [from Disasi].
"Disasi is lucky [for the second foul] because it's really clumsy.
"Once the forward gets in front, he's very clever. He's gotten across the defender and has the ascendancy. The defender has to back off."
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Ref for Aston Villa vs Club Brugge Daniel Siebert from Germany
15 Yellow Cards in 4 Champions League matches this season.
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Dermot Gallagher is fucking mental. The over analysed free kick Diving Rat Face scored against Arsenal where the wall was 11.2 yards (who cares), he backed the ref by saying something like '' to be fair the rules only say the wall has to be a minimum 10 yards, it can be any distance the ref wants''. What a load of shit.
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Dermot Gallagher would defend Adolf Hitler if he found out he'd ever been linesman at a Bavarian League Division Three match.
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All i know is i'll be surprised if there is even one paying spectator who thinks VAR has improved the game as a spectacle. Referees have been completely undermined by it. At one time we moaned about a decision and then moved on - now the fall-out rumbles on for weeks.
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Dermot Gallagher is fucking mental. The over analysed free kick Diving Rat Face scored against Arsenal where the wall was 11.2 yards (who cares), he backed the ref by saying something like '' to be fair the rules only say the wall has to be a minimum 10 yards, it can be any distance the ref wants''. What a load of shit.
Way too much has been made of the wall being slightly too far back in my opinion.
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Ref Watch:
INCIDENT: In Aston Villa's win over Brentford, Thomas Frank felt his side should have had at least one penalty.
The first on Kevin Schade he was most convinced about, with Matty Cash and Axel Disasi involved.
There was then another challenge from Disasi on Schade later in the game, which also went unpunished.
Dermot Gallagher says: Because Cash heads the ball [for the first incident], the referee gives a corner. He says he's cleared the ball.
When the second Villa player comes in, he thinks he's slipped into him, and Cash clearly heads the ball out for a corner. He does that before the collision [from Disasi].
"Disasi is lucky [for the second foul] because it's really clumsy.
"Once the forward gets in front, he's very clever. He's gotten across the defender and has the ascendancy. The defender has to back off."
So the twat still won't drop his mate in it
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Whilst I agree he will defend refs decisions, isn't he stating the ref got the second one wrong? And Cash saved the first one from being one.
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Official for Preston:
Referee: Christopher Kavanagh
VAR: Tim Robinson
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In Spain Liga F plans to introduce Football Video Support (FVS) starting next season. FVS allows the head coach to make the referee review major decisions(goals, offsides, penalties, mistaken identity). Teams are allowed 2 wrong challenges per match.
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In Spain Liga F plans to introduce Football Video Support (FVS) starting next season. FVS allows the head coach to make the referee review major decisions(goals, offsides, penalties, mistaken identity). Teams are allowed 2 wrong challenges per match.
Sounds similar to the system in American Football, except that Real Madrid are allowed 5 wrong challenges per match.
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Whilst not a bad idea, unfortunately it will only slow the game down more for such incidents.
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Not necessarily. At the moment nearly every goal and quite a few other incidents are checked. You could easily have five or six checks per game. Under this system you might have four. Will be interesting to see how it works, it's pretty much in line with how I always thought VAR should be done.
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Not necessarily. At the moment nearly every goal and quite a few other incidents are checked. You could easily have five or six checks per game. Under this system you might have four. Will be interesting to see how it works, it's pretty much in line with how I always thought VAR should be done.
How good an idea this is relies heavily on how they adapt the idea of "umpire's call" into it.
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V Brighton Official watch
Referee: Stuart Attwell. VAR: Matt Donohue.
Atwell is from Warwickshire
He’s ref twice this season 3-0 defeat to chelsea and the 2-2 v Ipswich
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Not just Atwell but who’s matt Donohue on VAR why no penalty and now a Clear hand ball lengthy check .
At least some balancing after dismissing the pen first half.
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Atwell getting his yellow card quota in.
How has this ref booked 3 villa players?! ...
The conventional way. Held up a yellow card and then wrote their names down.
tbf all 3 were deserved .
However if asking why Brighton didn’t receive more bookings - am much agreements.
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Just watching the Scouse derby plus our match to me underlines the standard is getting worse. It desperately needs addressing.
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Just watching the Scouse derby plus our match to me underlines the standard is getting worse. It desperately needs addressing.
Seems like the on field and off field referees are back second guessing one another. That Everton one is assault, thug shouldnt be playing again this season. That clown Atwell is looking right at Ramsey's one tonight, shouldnt even need the guy in the caravan to help him out.
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All time low. There is no common sense involved. It's a series of back coverings going on and interpretations of the rules to cover arses. No one is going to get better until they start admitting fault.
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That Tarkowski tackle is horrendous.
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Reminded me of Gerrard's tackle on George Boateng back in 2001.
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It seems to me the directive is to go with the on field decision rather than get the decision right. If the ref gives the penalty last night, there's no chance it's overturned. If they're going to use technology, at least get the decision right.
Macalister is very lucky his leg wasn't broken. How VAR looked at that & said no red card is staggering.
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Wasn't Tarkowski part of the thug brothers partnership at Cloggers Burnley under shit house Dyche? Him and Mee chopping people down constantly and getting away with it.
He should have a 3 game ban. An Atwell shouldn't be allowed to ref us anymore, he hates us as much as we hate him.
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Wasn't Tarkowski part of the thug brothers partnership at Cloggers Burnley under shit house Dyche? Him and Mee chopping people down constantly and getting away with it.
He should have a 3 game ban. An Atwell shouldn't be allowed to ref us anymore, he hates us as much as we hate him.
Yep, seems like it's only Dyche-adjacent players that still make this kind of challenge, it's no coincidence.
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Ever since the introduction of VAR we have seen endless excuses, chicanery, obfuscating, rule changes, and downright lying in order to justify what was utterly flawed as an idea, never mind it's implementation.
The excuse last night for the challenge on JJ was that there "wasn't enough contact". WTF? How do you measure how much is enough? They made the decision in order to protect the ref and for no other reason. Before the end of the season you will see a Pen where the contact is less. Add this to "phase of play" where no-one really knows when they start or finish, interfering or not (Liverpool's goal last night), the handball rule etc etc.
All hugely subjective so impossible to be consistent.
I can accept a Ref making a mistake, what I can't accept is a third party doubling down on the mistake and that is one of the myriad problems with VAR.
It. Doesn't. Work.
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The trouble is the ref told VAR he was booking him for the follow-through after getting loads on the ball initially. With the directive of only sending someone to the screens on a clear and obvious error, how do they send him there to review when he states he saw the follow-through and booked him?
Take last night for example, Atwell told them he had seen both the Brighton and Villa pen appeals and they didn't see anything to state a clear error. However he never mentioned Mitoma's handball in the goal so they could send him for that.
But surely all the ex-footballers who stated it was alright for Lewis-Skelly to go in studs high on the ankle/shin when he is no where near the ball should be fine with the tackle last night only getting a yellow.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Think there was a couple, they looked very lucky to win last night.
We need to be giving them a right good hiding we they visit us.
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The reffing and VAR was a total mess last night - added to the lack of additional time at the end of the first half too... it continues to suck the life out of the game.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Got away with what? Most of the coverage is about Tonali's fluke that he definitely meant.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Got away with what? Most of the coverage is about Tonali's fluke that he definitely meant.
Yeah he said it was 70% cross in his post match interview. So he definitely meant to fluke it.
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The Geordies got away with one last night, no corruption in the game?
Got away with what? Most of the coverage is about Tonali's fluke that he definitely meant.
There was a clear penalty for Brentford ignored in the second half, was similar to the one we got on Sunday.
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Matt Donohoe - the VAR regf last night is a Select Group 2 ref, which might explain a lot.
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Matt Donohoe - the VAR regf last night is a Select Group 2 ref, which might explain a lot.
TBH the issue last night wasn’t VAR it was Atwell being an utter clown.
On the penalty VAR asked him to take another look and he wouldn’t change his decision.
On the handball, Atwell missed the handball by Mitoma but VAR spotted it and bought him to check.
On the Ramsey handball, VAR spotted that it had hit Ramsey thigh/stomach before his arm.
On Asensio’s goal he determined that the Watkins/Wieff clash was 6 of one half a dozen of the other and that Watkins wasn’t offside and interfering with play.
I think VAR did its job well last night, it helped ensure Atwell didn’t completely ruin the match.
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
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It's the worst it's ever been
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Matt Donohoe - the VAR regf last night is a Select Group 2 ref, which might explain a lot.
TBH the issue last night wasn’t VAR it was Atwell being an utter clown.
On the penalty VAR asked him to take another look and he wouldn’t change his decision.
On the handball, Atwell missed the handball by Mitoma but VAR spotted it and bought him to check.
On the Ramsey handball, VAR spotted that it had hit Ramsey thigh/stomach before his arm.
On Asensio’s goal he determined that the Watkins/Wieff clash was 6 of one half a dozen of the other and that Watkins wasn’t offside and interfering with play.
I think VAR did its job well last night, it helped ensure Atwell didn’t completely ruin the match.
Atwell didn't call most of those on the pitch either so not sure why VAR is getting the credit and Atwell none.
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
Same way he didn't give in to their penalty shout, he didn't think there was enough contact apparently and VAR agreed with him.
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
Same way he didn't give in to their penalty shout, he didn't think there was enough contact apparently and VAR agreed with him.
Well obviously that's what he thought due to the outcome but I mean how does he not think there's enough contact? He took both legs. He had a clear view. Sunday league refs everywhere would give it without a second thought, from 50 yards further away.
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One of those. I do wonder on when denying that, the fact he had already denied a shout the other end being a factor or not. It shouldn't be but I expect it does affect some decisions.
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This new rule where they keep the referees decision 9 times out of 10 is a farce as there is literally no need for VAR. How Atwell didn't give a penalty last night is beyond me but for the VAR to go with the onfield decision is even more baffling. Think back to the first day of the season at West Ham when Cash won the ball but the ref gave a penalty. A decision that was upheld for whatever reason. Just have refs give the decision and go with it.
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Directives are clearly coming from the top so it’s about time Webb’s position was under some scrutiny…the way they implement the rules, the way they use VAR and the lack of honesty when covering the mistakes is no better under Webb than it was under Riley.
I was very firmly in the bin VAR camp 12 months ago however I have now switched to needing it due to the incompetence of the on field refs & the players/benches blatantly cheating.
VAR needs to be used consistently by trained VAR operatives not referee mates, it needs to be transparent ie live streaming the ref link and 100% needs to be conveyed to paying customers properly…
What also has to be remembered is that VAR masks the real problem which is that the standard of the on field officials has at best stagnated but in reality has got worse under Webbs reign IMHO
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How does he not give that penalty on the pitch, he was right there?
Same way he didn't give in to their penalty shout, he didn't think there was enough contact apparently and VAR agreed with him.
Well obviously that's what he thought due to the outcome but I mean how does he not think there's enough contact? He took both legs. He had a clear view. Sunday league refs everywhere would give it without a second thought, from 50 yards further away.
Clearly there must be some sensor in player's boots that can transmit the amount of force applied to boots and coupled with the motion of the forward player being fouled a message is sent to Atwell's ear piece saying you're a ******* idiot if you think that isn't a penalty. Atwell sticks by his guns because he's in charge and he has the power.
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What frustrates me is the amount of time it took to just then have the ref not look at it. Just send the ref over quicker with decisions like that. I doubt it will last much longer than it already does.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
Me neither. There are times where there isn't enough contact, or the attacker has dangled his leg and initiated the contact (which I hate), but this very clearly wasn't that.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
Me neither. There are times where there isn't enough contact, or the attacker has dangled his leg and initiated the contact (which I hate), but this very clearly wasn't that.
Exactly.
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That's the clearest penalty not given I think I have ever seen. Certainly in the VAR era it is. I really want to hear the ref audio for this one.
How they decide a judo sweep of both legs is insufficient contact I will never understand.
Agree, it was very clearly a penalty.
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I’ve said enough times that Attwell hates us. Somebody always sneers at it but look what transpired every time. Although it is amusing to see those that sneer then criticise the refereeing after the game.
There’s no way a Warwickshire ref should ref a Warwickshire Club full stop. It didn’t used to happen.
I think for our penalty his excuse was simulation with the way JJ went down. If that was the case he should have booked him.
As it is the not enough contact excuse basically means we know there was a foul but we’re going to claim it wasn’t impactful enough. That’s just nonsense and never been part of football.
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That Tarkowski tackle is horrendous.
Apparently he has had something like 63 yellow cards in the Premier League but no reds?
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I’ve said enough times that Attwell hates us. Somebody always sneers at it but look what transpired every time. Although it is amusing to see those that sneer then criticise the refereeing after the game.
There’s no way a Warwickshire ref should ref a Warwickshire Club full stop. It didn’t used to happen.
I think for our penalty his excuse was simulation with the way JJ went down. If that was the case he should have booked him.
As it is the not enough contact excuse basically means we know there was a foul but we’re going to claim it wasn’t impactful enough. That’s just nonsense and never been part of football.
I don't think he hates us, I just think he's shit.
If he genuinely hated us he could have given them two penalties and allowed their goal and it wouldn't have been particularly controversial or out of line with other decisions given in other games.
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I’ve said enough times that Attwell hates us. Somebody always sneers at it but look what transpired every time. Although it is amusing to see those that sneer then criticise the refereeing after the game.
There’s no way a Warwickshire ref should ref a Warwickshire Club full stop. It didn’t used to happen.
I think for our penalty his excuse was simulation with the way JJ went down. If that was the case he should have booked him.
As it is the not enough contact excuse basically means we know there was a foul but we’re going to claim it wasn’t impactful enough. That’s just nonsense and never been part of football.
Well he could have easily gave the penalty for their shout which VAR would have backed up. And he could have stated there was not enough of a handball to overturn their goal which again was in his power, or gave the foul against Watkins in the build-up for the second. So no we don't think he specifically hates us. People are criticising him as shit ref, but that is also the criticism when he refs ManU v Brighton, or Juventus v Real then when he refs us.
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Hope we have a strong ref who will keep an eye on all the off the ball stuff. Horrid team are Forest
Referee: Simon Hooper.
VAR: Michael Oliver.
Imagine being less VAR delays with a more experienced official on VAR than brighton match.
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That Tarkowski tackle is horrendous.
Apparently he has had something like 63 yellow cards in the Premier League but no reds?
I've just seen that one and that is a horrific tackle a 100% red all day long. Both decisions last night need investigating. Of course the Liverpool one will get more focus.
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BBC Live text thingy has PGMOL already stating the decision was a mistake in the Scouse Derby. Ours will just be swept under although might be in the Mic'd up thing when it next gets produced.
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In 19 Prem games Simon Hooper hasn’t officiated one of our matches all season.
Yellow 94 Red 2 5.05 cards/game
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Another useless twat.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/czj438xxkg9o
Unless it is Atwell in which case he will still book the captain for approaching them.
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https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jul/30/evolution-referees-speed-tests-data-psychologists-superfoods-pgmo?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Getting their excuses in early.
Being as fit as a fiddle counts for nothing if they can't get the basics right - and I'm looking at you, Thomas Bramhall.
One suggestion - instead of hiding behind glib formulaic statements, why doesn't PGMOL put someone up the explain some of the more "controversial" decisions?
Yonks ago, I went away to Oakwell on my own and sat in the main stand. I slagged off a decision and the bloke sitting beside me introduced himself as a local league referee and then proceeded to take me through the game from the perspective of the ref, explaining why the ref had made decisions that didn't make sense to me.
An eye opener to say the least.
A 2-3 minute "The ref explains" slot on MOTD would, I'm sure be really helpful in educating fans about the way games are reffed.
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Explaining decisions in the ground and more detailed post match, would do a lot rebuild trust.
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Webb all last season was doing transparancy videos and releasing Audio of all contentious decisions with either explanations or holding up hands on mistakes. Apparently though the transparency stops for the last two rounds of matches as nothing was ever released for the Manu one but the tweet on the day.
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As expected that horrendous mistake was swept under the carpet.
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As expected that horrendous £100m mistake was swept under the carpet.
FTFY
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By everyone, including ourselves officially. You would have thought it would have been pushed to get the PGMOL call on whether a ref should blow for a foul when it looks like a goal could be scored or leave it and then review it. But no, season is over so nothing more needs to be done including "being transparent".
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Only the Footballing God's know how much I hate VAR. Give me a bit of human error any day of the week.
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@refereewatch Controversial referee Thomas Bramall is in line for a quick reunion with Aston Villa and has been earmarked for their opening game against Newcastle at home on August 16th.
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I'll be booing the fuckwit from kick off. Did I read he was conveniently ref for United on their recent tour and gave a ludicrous pen to them?
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@refereewatch Controversial referee Thomas Bramall is in line for a quick reunion with Aston Villa and has been earmarked for their opening game against Newcastle at home on August 16th.
That would be a ridiculous appointment.
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@refereewatch Controversial referee Thomas Bramall is in line for a quick reunion with Aston Villa and has been earmarked for their opening game against Newcastle at home on August 16th.
That would be a ridiculous appointment.
'Deliberately provocotive' would be my take.
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when will this be announced as it is usually the Monday before the game so nothing listed as yet.
|I cannot believe that twat would be at VP first game, or any game to be honest
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I'll be booing the fuckwit from kick off. Did I read he was conveniently ref for United on their recent tour and gave a ludicrous pen to them?
Wouldn't say ludricous as the Everton defender did have a couple of bites of pulling Diallo back without a chance of winning the ball. What was ludrious was when Rogers didn't get a penalty for a similar thing when VAR stated no because it was not sustained fouling.
However Fernandez should have been red carded when he lost the ball and just deliberately studded the Everton player in the Achilles with no attempt at the ball whatsoever. As it was a Prem sponsored tournament, I don't know if the red would have carried over but sometimes they do from friendlies.
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@refereewatch Controversial referee Thomas Bramall is in line for a quick reunion with Aston Villa and has been earmarked for their opening game against Newcastle at home on August 16th.
That would be a ridiculous appointment.
Typical arrogant referees just to show who's in charge
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@refereewatch Controversial referee Thomas Bramall is in line for a quick reunion with Aston Villa and has been earmarked for their opening game against Newcastle at home on August 16th.
That would be a ridiculous appointment.
Typical arrogant referees just to show who's in charge
I can't imagine Villa would accept this without a strong appeal for it not to happen.
Of course, if he were to ref it you would think he might be slightly in favour of making amends.
Nah, maybe not!
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Howard Webb explaining the 8 second rule and how they will get around it to only penalise certain keepers. (Although ironic that Arse think they are put upon).
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/1mma15y/howard_webb_explains_the_new_8second_rule_for/
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I wonder who these certain 'keepers might play for...
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From the Premier League website.
Officials for Villa v Toon
Referee: Craig Pawson.
Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Nick Hopton.
Fourth official: Simon Hooper.
VAR: Peter Bankes.
Assistant VAR: Tim Robinson.
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Not Thomas Bramhall then.
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Let's hope that Pawson doesn't reprise his abysmal performance in the Spurs away game, where he allowed several thugs to kick the shit out of us for most of the match.
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Another shit referring display, speaking to a Geordie after the game who said the ref was a lot worse for you ie Villa.
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I’d give Pawson a 6/10 for that performance.
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He got a few wrong, particularly Burn obviously pushing Watkins in the back a few times, but quite a lot of the ones my fellow attendees were howling at, I thought he got right. Rogers in particular went down looking for a decision when he looked to be away.
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I don't mind not giving Rogers free kicks when he goes down looking for it if he does the same for them. However, every time a Newcastle player went to ground they got a free kick, regardless of whether there was even a hint of a foul. Dreadful referee. The red card was correct, though.
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I thought the worst decision he made was when Trippier threw Watkins to the ground by the corner flag at the end of the game.
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We'll see a lot worse this season than yesterday, I reckon.
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We'll see a lot worse this season than yesterday, I reckon.
Ain’t that the truth.
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Newcastle have had favourable refereeing since their takeover. Burn and Joelinton should have had double the yellow cards they have accumulated over the past few seasons.
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I’m still pondering whether I hate Joelinton or Richarlison more? Both ugly dirty thuggish players who get away with blue murder on a weekly basis.
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That referee was a disgrace. Newcastle were constantly pushing and pulling at our players shirts.
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The rotational fouling by the Newcastle midfield as soon as we started to break kyesterday drove me mad. Firstly it was Joelinton then Tonali then Guimares and then back to Joelinton. Man City got away with this for years. A 'team fouls' law would kill this off.
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Joelinton seems to get booked every game.
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I loved that Dan Burn blatant shove on Olly I think it was . My god , it was fuck it I do not even need to hide it
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Brentford v Villa
Referee: Tony Harrington. Assistants: Mat Wilkes, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Michael Oliver. VAR: Tim Wood. Assistant VAR: James Mainwaring.
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Brentford v Villa
Referee: Tony Harrington. Assistants: Mat Wilkes, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Michael Oliver. VAR: Tim Wood. Assistant VAR: James Mainwaring.
Do they think that’s wise?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c1kzkrp8dmgo
Telling us what we all know but this from the article.
Speaking on Match Officials Mic'd Up - a television programme which analyses VAR decisions from previous gameweeks - PGMOL chief refereeing officer Webb acknowledged the error.
Unless it is the last two weeks of the season in which case we ignore everything.
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Has anyone seen an angle that shows Bizot actually making contact with the Palace lad for the penalty? The MOTD angle wasn't clear at all whether contact was made.
The referee was, of course, Shithouse Division 2 inadequate Atwell, but I thought the VAR official had a job to do there.
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Has anyone seen an angle that shows Bizot actually making contact with the Palace lad for the penalty? The MOTD angle wasn't clear at all whether contact was made.
The referee was, of course, Shithouse Division 2 inadequate Atwell, but I thought the VAR official had a job to do there.
Yeah, I still haven't seen any angle that shows contact, either. I haven't really seen or heard much of the decision being challenged, just sort of accepted.
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I suppose that once the penalty has been given, there needs to be clear evidence that there was definitely no contact for it to be overturned. I haven’t seen an angle that shows zero contact.
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Has anyone seen an angle that shows Bizot actually making contact with the Palace lad for the penalty? The MOTD angle wasn't clear at all whether contact was made.
The referee was, of course, Shithouse Division 2 inadequate Atwell, but I thought the VAR official had a job to do there.
When I saw it, it was always going to be given because the ref was behind the player who went down and it looked like contact had been made. I said at the time that it looked very soft, and Kamada seemed to have pushed the ball too far ahead of himself to be able to retrieve it; hence the 'dive'.
It was never going to be overturned, however.
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Haven't seen a replay but from behind the goal it seemed a certain penalty and nobody in the Holte was complaining.
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Haven't seen a replay but from behind the goal it seemed a certain penalty and nobody in the Holte was complaining.
also the keepers reaction, it was a pen.
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It was always going to be given as a pen but there was minimal contact. A little later Watkins went through and got a shove but stayed on his feet and we got nothing. That's my biggest peeve with how football is reffed, if you play for fouls you get rewarded more often than not, which clearly encourages diving because there is no incentive to trying to stay on your feet.
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I wouldn't state it was always going to be given, but it was always on Refs decision and VAR wouldn't have overturned it either way. Ref could have decided minimal contact and not enough for player to go down. What didn't help any decision in our favour was Bizot moving his leg after spreading. I know he wanted to get up as fast as possible but the movement meant his leg looked like it was deliberately moved to take the player, where if it was stationary it could have been seen as the striker dragging his leg against the keeper.
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I was more worried about the non-booking for Hughes in the first half. You won't see a more obvious yellow card offence. Newcastle got away with loads, as well.
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I was more worried about the non-booking for Hughes in the first half. You won't see a more obvious yellow card offence. Newcastle got away with loads, as well.
Yep, that was ridiculous. It was worse than the one he actually got booked for. Just abysmal.
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I was more worried about the non-booking for Hughes in the first half. You won't see a more obvious yellow card offence. Newcastle got away with loads, as well.
Yep, that was ridiculous. It was worse than the one he actually got booked for. Just abysmal.
Yes the second should have been a sending off, Atwell is abysmal
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I doubt they'd have left him on at half-time if he had been booked. They went to substitute him as soon as he actually did get a card in the second half (though were forced to delay the sub for a bit as Wharton went off injured).
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I doubt they'd have left him on at half-time if he had been booked. They went to substitute him as soon as he actually did get a card in the second half (though were forced to delay the sub for a bit as Wharton went off injured).
Yep, Hughes is a limited footballer who runs around kick8ng people until he gets booked.
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It was definitely a pen. The non yellow card on that Hughes challenge was a really poor decision.
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I will never understand how Attwell is allowed to ref Villa games!
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I just can't believe he went out the way to cover-up him supposedly being a Cov supporter 20 years ago JUST to be able to fuck us over. That is dedication.
Also being a supporter of another local team wouldn't actually have stopped him reffing our games anyway unless we were playing Coventry.
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He didn't cover anything up. He never refs Cov games and never has.
I appreciate they use different rules but for me its ridiculous to let Warwickshire refs cover other Warwickshire teams.
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Well he is down as a Luton supporter everywhere else, yet you (or apologies if it is someone else) always claims he is lying and actually is a Cov supporter really and so shouldn't ref our games. Personally he shouldn't ref our games (or most others) because he is incompetent is the real reason.
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The Luton thing is a myth because he allowed a phantom goal against Watford and the Luton supporters took the mickey.
His family are well known locally and his dad was Secretary of the Local Referee's association. they all had season tickets at Cov.
I've never seen the stats but it has always seemed to me that we are hard done by every tine we have him.
In any case on geography alone (ie same county) I don't think he should be handling our matches. I dont know why they ever changed that rule?
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Well even if they brought back the rule, Villa isn't part of Warwickshire officially are they so it wouldn't stop him reffing us.
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Its part of the historic county of Warwickshire which the 1972 Local Government reorganisation Act says wasn't altered.
West Midlands is an administrative area not an historic county.
And in football terms both Nuneaton and Villa are covered by the Birmingham County FA.
In any case they are obviously local. So would have undoubtedly been covered historically.
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Howard Webb on that Sky programme last night explained to Michael Owen that VAR were right to intervene and over turn the refs call (only allowed if it’s a clear and obvious error) because Pope got a touch on the ball in the game vs Arsenal. Last season vs Brighton Arsenal saliba got sent off for a foul spdespite heading the ball because Howard Webb said the touch on the ball doesn’t in itself negate the foul.
So given the “experts” are inconsistent, how can anyone else know what’s going on.
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Becasuse each tackle is different? I wouldn't have expected Martinez to be not be sent off last season if he nicked the ball and still then brought down Hjoljund in the way he did, and I think if pope had gone for the tackle rather then the spread and really upended the player it would have still been a penalty even with a touch.
But ultimately it is the refs wordings to VAR which determines alot of the clear error or not intervention. VAR got involved in that one (AND ours a few seasons ago) as the ref probably stated there was no touch on the ball. VAR in both saw there was and mentions to the ref. In both the ref goes to the monitor. In both the ref has to decide if there is enough of a touch. For the ours he decided there wasn't and in the Newcastle one he believed there was.
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This is why VAR is unworkable on subjective decisions.
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You might as well state all of Football can't work because of subjective decisions. If the ref had stated to VAR he had seen the ball nick off Popes foot but didn't think it was enough, the pen would have been given by VAR as well with little more then onfield decision. VAR decided to show that it had been touched as the ref obviously hadn't seen it when making his decision. It was still the on-field ref to decide if it was enough not to give it and he decided it was.
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What is the point where “enough of a touch” becomes sufficient to avoid a foul?
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What is the point where “enough of a touch” becomes sufficient to avoid a foul?
I think it very much depends on the colour of the shirt of the player committing the 'foul', and the one on the receiving end.
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What is the point where “enough of a touch” becomes sufficient to avoid a foul?
Usually if they have diverted the ball enough away from the attacker BEFORE the foul is committed. The one we had where the ref decided to stick with his decision (was that Palace?) and a similar one against the unwashed years earlier show that, where both defenders slid in, essentially tickled the ball but didn't do enough to divert the path or play it to their keeper and then bought our player down. Of course that is assuming the player hasn't gone in recklessly (Studs showing and really high) in which case a "touch" isn't always going to save the player. But ultimately, it is always going to be subjective to the ref on the day, his angle of view, whether VAR can become involved in the decision (goal, pen, sending off) and, as pointed out by Pat, the teams involved. (Although surely Arse trumps Newcastle in the order of decisiosns).
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I thought the one against Wolves was shit but fuck me the ref and VAR took the biscuit tonight.
Never a corner for thier first
Definitely pen on Maatsen- the more you see it the more obvious it is.
The goal line handball - did not even look at it.
The other thing that boils my piss is all the paying public in the stadium wait anxiously for the VAR decision yet sky announce the outcome before the ref even signals a decision is imminent- how is that right?
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The handball decision was scandalous. They nearly did us on the break just after. It was a chaotic game and the referee got caught up in it.
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They didn't look at the handball because we scored before it went out of play, I thought? He wasn't great today but miles better than the twat against Wolves. I thought he improved as we did.
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They didn't look at the handball because we scored before it went out of play, I thought? He wasn't great today but miles better than the twat against Wolves. I thought he improved as we did.
I'm not sure, there was two further plays after their handball, their immediate counter and then our goal. It was a blatant handball too, not sure how the ref missed it in real time. Not sure Emery could have been held responsible for his actions at half time if we didn't score the equaliser.
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They were reviewing it but as we scored 40 seconds later with ball not going out of play, that is CD's point. If the ref had called a foul on Pau for example, he might have delayed the game for the VAR review before restarting. But then we scored so they checked our goal and decided then not to call it back for a decision on a penalty instead.
Anyone confirm if it seemed a blatant handball though? It wasn't shown on the highlights packages.
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They didn't look at the handball because we scored before it went out of play, I thought? He wasn't great today but miles better than the twat against Wolves. I thought he improved as we did.
I'm not sure, there was two further plays after their handball, their immediate counter and then our goal. It was a blatant handball too, not sure how the ref missed it in real time. Not sure Emery could have been held responsible for his actions at half time if we didn't score the equaliser.
He missed everything in real time the clown.
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They were reviewing it but as we scored 40 seconds later with ball not going out of play, that is CD's point. If the ref had called a foul on Pau for example, he might have delayed the game for the VAR review before restarting. But then we scored so they checked our goal and decided then not to call it back for a decision on a penalty instead.
Anyone confirm if it seemed a blatant handball though? It wasn't shown on the highlights packages.
Bounced off the post. back towards the centre of goal and hit his hand. We'd have scored.
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Watched the whole move on MOTD and the ball definitely didn't go out of play before we scored. However, it did go back into Bizot's hands, which means, I think, that the referee could have stopped the game if he was advised to do so by VAR. That is exactly what happened against Wolves when the referee stopped the game to check for a possible red card. So, I think either VAR looked at the handball and deemed it wasn't a penalty or hadn't finished looking at it yet by the time it was back with Bizot.
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We were too quick for the TV coverage, so there's no way VAR would have been able to keep up.
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He was a dreadful ref, but in the last few mins when we were under the cosh seemed to turn our way somewhat - there was at least one corner he gave as a goal kick.
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They were reviewing it but as we scored 40 seconds later with ball not going out of play, that is CD's point. If the ref had called a foul on Pau for example, he might have delayed the game for the VAR review before restarting. But then we scored so they checked our goal and decided then not to call it back for a decision on a penalty instead.
Anyone confirm if it seemed a blatant handball though? It wasn't shown on the highlights packages.
It clearly hits his arm/hand but it wasn't intentional for me, it's as he turns towards the post the ball has just bounced off.
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They were reviewing it but as we scored 40 seconds later with ball not going out of play, that is CD's point. If the ref had called a foul on Pau for example, he might have delayed the game for the VAR review before restarting. But then we scored so they checked our goal and decided then not to call it back for a decision on a penalty instead.
Anyone confirm if it seemed a blatant handball though? It wasn't shown on the highlights packages.
It clearly hits his arm/hand but it wasn't intentional for me, it's as he turns towards the post the ball has just bounced off.
I agree, I don't think it'd have been given, especially after they didn't give the clearer one where the guy trod on Maatsen's foot.
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A penalty would have meant we’d have gone into the break 2-1 down. I’m fine with the decision to play on forever.
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I kept thinking VAR was going to have one of those really ridiculous moments when they go back a frame, find the hand ball incident and award a penalty, then travel back one more frame and find something else and give them a free kick and rule out our goal. You just never know anymore!
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I kept thinking VAR was going to have one of those really ridiculous moments when they go back a frame, find the hand ball incident and award a penalty, then travel back one more frame and find something else and give them a free kick and rule out our goal. You just never know anymore!
I was fully expecting an outcome from that situation that denied us both the goal and penalty and led to a hasty rule change by the FA afterwards.
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Cash and Kamara both booked for their first fouls. Caicedo and Enzo commit 5 before they are booked.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but it was so clear they would both do well to not miss Arsenal and the referee was only too happy to make sure they did.
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Cash and Kamara both booked for their first fouls. Caicedo and Enzo commit 5 before they are booked.
I’m not one for conspiracy theories, but it was so clear they would both do well to not miss Arsenal and the referee was only too happy to make sure they did.
I think the ref was fine, they were annoying but not ridiculous bookings
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I think he was pretty far from fine. He also missed the Sanchez handball outside of the box earlier in the game, before the way more obvious second one.
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Cash's was a booking by a mile but he didn't look like he was going to show a card until that hairy twat had a go at him.
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I think he was pretty far from fine. He also missed the Sanchez handball outside of the box earlier in the game, before the way more obvious second one.
I agree, in the first half he was allowing them the freedom to do what they wanted un sanctioned.
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Atwell seemed to make sure he booked of the players he needed to.
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Atwell seemed to make sure he booked of the players he needed to.
Absolutely. He looked like he wasn't booking Cash until someone told him to.
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Cash's was a booking by a mile but he didn't look like he was going to show a card until that hairy twat had a go at him.
Yeah, was a little baffling that. It was such a clear yellow, I have no idea why it looked like he needed to be influenced.
I didn't have much of an issue with him.
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Exactly what was Morgan Rodgers booked for?
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Cash's was a booking by a mile but he didn't look like he was going to show a card until that hairy twat had a go at him.
Was listening to Andy Townsend on comms on the feed.
This is how he saw the challenges...yes really...
Caciedo "barely makes any contact on Kamara"
Cash "really not a good challenge at all"
Delap studs up on Kamara "Not much there from Delap is there....."
I like Townsend but he certainly had his Chelsea tinted spectacles on yesterday!
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I thought Caicedo should have got one for a sliding challenge not long into the match. Had it not happened so early he probably would have been booked.
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Cash's was a booking by a mile but he didn't look like he was going to show a card until that hairy twat had a go at him.
Was listening to Andy Townsend on comms on the feed.
This is how he saw the challenges...yes really...
Caciedo "barely makes any contact on Kamara"
Cash "really not a good challenge at all"
Delap studs up on Kamara "Not much there from Delap is there....."
I like Townsend but he certainly had his Chelsea tinted spectacles on yesterday!
Chelsea used to hate him when he walked out on them to join us. One match they were singing what a wanker he was during a minutes silence for somebody. He used to raise his game against them!
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Cash's was a booking by a mile but he didn't look like he was going to show a card until that hairy twat had a go at him.
Was listening to Andy Townsend on comms on the feed.
This is how he saw the challenges...yes really...
Caciedo "barely makes any contact on Kamara"
Cash "really not a good challenge at all"
Delap studs up on Kamara "Not much there from Delap is there....."
I like Townsend but he certainly had his Chelsea tinted spectacles on yesterday!
Chelsea used to hate him when he walked out on them to join us. One match they were singing what a wanker he was during a minutes silence for somebody. He used to raise his game against them!
He certainly still has a soft spot for us, might still live in Warwickshire but doing our games v Chelsea certainly brings the worst out of him as can remember him on ITV when they had the CL rights and he was screaming everytime they scored in big matches in that era.
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The ref absolutely knew that the Woolwich player had committed a second yellow card offence last night, you could see it in his eyes and his denial was one of panic but for a moment put yourself in his position, and indeed that of other officials.
Had he made the correct decision and we got something from the game, his decision would be subject to intense scrutiny from all and sundry, led by Arteta. It would have been described as a pivotal moment in the game by the media, their title aspirations hindered by it, the ref would be subject to all sorts of stick regardless of the fact that he had made the right call. The few that would back his decision would be out shouted by the blowhards and fucking wankers like Alan Smith and Keown, appointed cheerleaders for the chosen clubs.
But he chose the easy way out and was vindicated by the fact that there has been barely whisper about what was indeed a pivotal moment, Emery's non-handshake has got more press. And let's face it, can you really blame him?
This happens every week. Yes, the decisions are subjective but when there is an outside influence it colours decisions. See also Old Trafford at the end of last season.
You could see it in his eyes.....
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Absolutely shameful refereeing yesterday. I can forgive mistakes and not seeing everything, but seeing a foul which was a clear second booking then utterly bottling it like he did is unforgivable. He was dreadful with his refusal to book Saka in the first half, too. Saka gets away with more than any player in the league, even including Fernandes.
Watching Arsenal having watched Man City at Forest at the weekend, constantly fouling to break up every attack and never getting booked, you can see what a disadvantage we are at. With an already thin squad we have two players suspended for picking up five bookings. How many fouls would an Arsenal or Man City player have to commit to acquire five bookings? I can't imagine it wouldn't stretch to treble figures.
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Refs are like cops, indeed many are cops - lots of perfectly decent fellas who just want to make things fair, but also a lot of petty rulefreak bullies who show that the true delight of the bully isn't just punching down but also kissing up, who loves to feel their place in the hierarchy, who just craves the cuddly little thrill of standing close to power, the tang of boot leather on their sandpaper tongues.
Also Zubimendi's a sneaky little bugger.
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Cd and Nev , you have both absolutely nailed it. It’s not just the refs it’s backed up by the media punditry. It’s why no one mentions the 115 charges.
The level of bias has moved to downright cheating. They have their hands on the scales and the situation is getting worse.
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It was a shameful decision not to send off Merino. So clear and obvious. At 2-0 and down to ten the game changes completely. The Arsenal fans were on edge all first half and would have turned again. We all know if that Was a Villa player he would have gone.
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I think Arsenal were too strong in the end as their squad depth compared to ours was the crucial difference. However and not wanting to sound like a conspiracy theory nutjob I think it's obvious that Arsenal had more than a little help off the officials and also the PL. The fixtures absolutely favoured them over the last few days and Unai even questioned before the game why were we playing Arsenal for the second time before we have even played Forest once?
Onto last night's game. Saka not getting booked for twice deliberately tripping one of our players to stop a break was extremely lenient. Merino not picking up a blatant second yellow was again very very lenient. He then booked Rogers for, well nothing. The referee gave a free kick to them right on the touchline. Rogers stood 5/6 yards away probably expecting the ref to tell him to retreat thus wasting a bit of time. Instead the Arsenal player throws the ball towards Rogers,runs up and whacks the ball into Rogers legs. Cue the Arsenal player AND Arteta throwing their arms in the air demanding that Rogers got booked. Obviously the ref duly obliged and booked a bemused Rogers for, well nothing. And just to cap it all old nasaly boring bastard on comms observed radio silence when he should be asking "why on earth did he book Morgan Rogers there?"
Again I don't want to come across as the proud owner of a tin foil hat but I'm still seething at the injustice of it all.
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The ref absolutely knew that the Woolwich player had committed a second yellow card offence last night, you could see it in his eyes and his denial was one of panic but for a moment put yourself in his position, and indeed that of other officials.
Had he made the correct decision and we got something from the game, his decision would be subject to intense scrutiny from all and sundry, led by Arteta. It would have been described as a pivotal moment in the game by the media, their title aspirations hindered by it, the ref would be subject to all sorts of stick regardless of the fact that he had made the right call. The few that would back his decision would be out shouted by the blowhards and fucking wankers like Alan Smith and Keown, appointed cheerleaders for the chosen clubs.
But he chose the easy way out and was vindicated by the fact that there has been barely whisper about what was indeed a pivotal moment, Emery's non-handshake has got more press. And let's face it, can you really blame him?
This happens every week. Yes, the decisions are subjective but when there is an outside influence it colours decisions. See also Old Trafford at the end of last season.
You could see it in his eyes.....
His job is to referee the game not worry about what pundits have to say,if they do, they should get another job
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There's absolutely no excuse for why Morino didn't walk. There's also no way, as weak as Martinez was, we'd get away with the first goal.
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There's absolutely no excuse for why Morino didn't walk. There's also no way, as weak as Martinez was, we'd get away with the first goal.
Merino should have gone, Sakashite should have been yellowed and Rogers' card was harsh but the first goal was down to Martinez being a weak twat, not down to the ref (all corners are a bunfight these days, and refs rarely adjudicate on them).
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Whilst we have applauded the decency of Emery in not calling out the sort of decisions we saw last night, I think it's reached the point where he and/or the club need to start doing so, and loudly.
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I don’t want us becoming Forest but that Merino non call for a second yellow was scandalous. I know we were 2-0 down but we are a side that has consistently shown an ability to come back in games. Against 10 men that place will become very nervous. It might not have mattered but we don’t know. Those are massive decisions in games and across a season. Getting it right matters
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Whilst we have applauded the decency of Emery in not calling out the sort of decisions we saw last night, I think it's reached the point where he and/or the club need to start doing so, and loudly.
It's not going to happen. If Roger's goal-that-never-was at the end of last season didn't have the club bleating all summer about how the ref robbed this club of £100m, then we're not going to start doing it now after a poor reffing performance and a bad result.
It's shit, but bad decisions happen. I'm more disappointed that no pundits have picked up on the Merino foul, as "consistency" is the sort of thing they normally make a big deal of, and it was most definitely a deliberate foul denying a promising attacking moment.
In the ref's defence, I will say it was probably not possible for him to see Merino holding Rogers' arm to pull him down once he was turned, and there is no facility for VAR to say "you should book him" - they can only act on straight reds - so once the foul is given and no booking is handed out, that's it. C'est la vie.
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Whilst we have applauded the decency of Emery in not calling out the sort of decisions we saw last night, I think it's reached the point where he and/or the club need to start doing so, and loudly.
I am with you, we should have gone to town on the OT decision and put the PGMOL on notice that we are not going to continue to eat the shit they are handing out.
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You know a decision genuinely is bad when loads of fans of other clubs are saying no second yellow for Merino was shocking.
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The first goal seems a mixed bag across fans of other clubs. All seem to agree Martinez should have been stronger, most agree the rules have definitely changed but most seem to think that goal would have been ruled out if their own team scored it!
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The rules have to change to give keepers more protection at corners and the scragging that I see should lead to far more penalties being given. It's become a very ugly part of football.
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Haven't we been complaining for years that goalkeepers get too much protection?
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You know the ref has dropped a bollock when a manager subs the player off. As what happened with Merino, and even the commentators mentioned he had gotten lucky.
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Haven't we been complaining for years that goalkeepers get too much protection?
We have, but what’s changed and when and what are the laws now? It does seem a free for all in there and it’s getting quite silly with all the pulling and shoving. That Rogers booking could quite easily have lead to a second yellow when the first should have been a yellow to Reece James if anything?
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It’s not the laws,it’s the refs allowing the laws to be broken.
You are not allowed to physically Challenge the player without the ball, you are not allowed to use your arme and hands to tackle a player.
What is happening now is allowing refs to decide who wins football matches by applying the laws when it suits them.
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When Saka was getting away with it first half, I’d expect our captain to be chipping in the refs ear about it, you know, plant the seed. I didn’t see this on the coverage.
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While it's allowed it's up to us to learn to deal with it and do the same at our set pieces.
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The guy today was the worst I’ve seen this year.
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While I don't join the conspiracy theorists, I do believe that refs subliminally favour the so-called big clubs.
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If the push on Rogers is deemed to be not enough for a foul, then the push by Rogers in the second half can't possibly have been a foul either, and we should have had a penalty for handball instead. Referee was probably the ideal one for a typically thuggish Sean Dyche team, letting lots go and seemingly allergic to handing out yellow cards. Yet again. We did well to win so comfortably despite him. Forest have Arsenal in a few weeks, they'll finish with eight players if they do the same then.
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"Contact with consequence"? - WTAF? - Rogers (twice) and Tielemans are both clearly shoved in the box leading to a loss of possession, and nothing is given. Rogers and Bogarde do likewise outside the box, in the 2nd half, and freekicks are awarded. This refereeing business has soooo complicated itself, it's disappearing up its own backside.
And today the ref decides to stop a burgeoning Villa attack because his linesman had waved for a Forest offside: no attempt to use the advantage rule.
I try not to moan about refs, having been one myself, but they don't make things difficult for themselves.
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I thought the referee on Tuesday missed way more than this guy did today.
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"Contact with consequence"? - WTAF? - Rogers (twice) and Tielemans are both clearly shoved in the box leading to a loss of possession, and nothing is given. Rogers and Bogarde do likewise outside the box, in the 2nd half, and freekicks are awarded. This refereeing business has soooo complicated itself, it's disappearing up its own backside.
And today the ref decides to stop a burgeoning Villa attack because his linesman had waved for a Forest offside: no attempt to use the advantage rule.
I try not to moan about refs, having been one myself, but they don't make things difficult for themselves.
Actually the ref initially played the advantage on the offside and then when we broke away inexplicable changed his mind and gave the offside, which was even worse!
I certainly don't think he is the worse ref I have seen this season by a long way, just a bit weak!
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I thought he was decent today, let a lot go for both sides which allowed the game to flow reasonably well.
My one complaint of our boys today was they were throwing themselves to the floor under any contact in penalty box, we’d be better staying on our feet and trying to score.
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Just watched Brighton v Burnley MOTD. Walker shoved over Mitoma and almost carbon copy of the shove on Rogers. Result free kick to Brighton.
Frankly speaking I am sick of watching the all in wrestling matches at every corner or free kick into the box. This really needs to be stopped
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I didn’t think he was too bad yesterday. He let quite a lot go, but I felt that happened for both teams.
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I didn’t think he was too bad yesterday. He let quite a lot go, but I felt that happened for both teams.
Letting a lot go is the issue for me. Where is the consistency from week to week? Villa fans were right with that chant about him finding his cards.
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I get that, but in game I’d say he was pretty consistent for both teams.
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I didn’t think he was too bad yesterday. He let quite a lot go, but I felt that happened for both teams.
Letting a lot go is the issue for me. Where is the consistency from week to week? Villa fans were right with that chant about him finding his cards.
Agree. I thought that Konsa might come unstuck with that policy. He only did his buying a foul once yesterday but the foul was given.
Refs do tend to over penalise physical contact as a rule but you sometimes get one, like yesterday, where they let things go until they start remembering what their whistle and cards are for. I’m all for letting the game flow but a foul is a foul and should be officiated as such, particularly as it’s Forest who are one of the more physical sides in the Prem.
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Thought that again their No3 and 29 got away with persistent fouling when we were away and breaking.
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The push from behind to Tielemans wasn’t highly questionable. I think the ref tried to keep the game flowing but Forest are turning into the same as any other Dycheball side and are robust with their tackling. We should have had at least one penalty yesterday.
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I saw some stuff online about Murillo standing on Rogers should have been a red - it definitely wasn’t. It was unfortunate, but it wasn’t reckless or anything.
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I saw some stuff online about Murillo standing on Rogers should have been a red - it definitely wasn’t. It was unfortunate, but it wasn’t reckless or anything.
Yep, it was no worse then Duran on Schar.......
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The thing that gets me is the amount of grappling physical teams get away with. It’s obviously a directive to ‘let the game flow’ but it’s led to me not knowing what a foul is or isn’t anymore. Teams like Forest and Newcastle fill their dirty boots and get away with cynical fouls which stop the sodding game from flowing. The grappling at corners is also an annoying farce. Surely there’s a middle ground somewhere.
I think the above makes refereeing harder too - hence why the current lot of refs appear shite.
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Whenever I see Howard Webb, the referee chief, on tele he's always going on about how his team are always looking for ways to improve things for refs and fans, but I've yet to hear him mention about the farce that goes on in the penalty box, when a corner is given.
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Whenever I see Howard Webb, the referee chief, on tele he's always going on about how his team are always looking for ways to improve things for refs and fans, but I've yet to hear him mention about the farce that goes on in the penalty box, when a corner is given.
Too right. Why should the ref be obliged to warn players about their actions? If he deems an incident is a foul one way or another just give it. That will put an end to it.
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The explanations on what a ref will and won't accept should cone before a game and then enforced accordingly.
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I thought he was decent today, let a lot go for both sides which allowed the game to flow reasonably well.
My one complaint of our boys today was they were throwing themselves to the floor under any contact in penalty box, we’d be better staying on our feet and trying to score.
Viewed from the Holte upper, so 100m away in the first half, I thought it looked like we dived a few times in the first half to try to win penalties. MOTD showed none of them so no idea if we were diving or robbed.
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I thought he was decent today, let a lot go for both sides which allowed the game to flow reasonably well.
My one complaint of our boys today was they were throwing themselves to the floor under any contact in penalty box, we’d be better staying on our feet and trying to score.
Viewed from the Holte upper, so 100m away in the first half, I thought it looked like we dived a few times in the first half to try to win penalties. MOTD showed none of them so no idea if we were diving or robbed.
Sky Sports highlights showed the Rogers one. It does look like two hands in his back.
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Whenever I see Howard Webb, the referee chief, on tele he's always going on about how his team are always looking for ways to improve things for refs and fans, but I've yet to hear him mention about the farce that goes on in the penalty box, when a corner is given.
Man with cushiest job in football….never ever questioned on standards of officials.
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I thought he was decent today, let a lot go for both sides which allowed the game to flow reasonably well.
My one complaint of our boys today was they were throwing themselves to the floor under any contact in penalty box, we’d be better staying on our feet and trying to score.
Viewed from the Holte upper, so 100m away in the first half, I thought it looked like we dived a few times in the first half to try to win penalties. MOTD showed none of them so no idea if we were diving or robbed.
Sky Sports highlights showed the Rogers one. It does look like two hands in his back.
It definitely was 2 hands in the back, but the way Rogers falls was not realistic. A push in the back will cause you to stumble forward, Rogers throws his feet backwards to fall, just doesn't look natural, and ref right not to give it
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I’d agree with that. Didn’t really feel like a pen to me.
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I thought he was decent today, let a lot go for both sides which allowed the game to flow reasonably well.
My one complaint of our boys today was they were throwing themselves to the floor under any contact in penalty box, we’d be better staying on our feet and trying to score.
Viewed from the Holte upper, so 100m away in the first half, I thought it looked like we dived a few times in the first half to try to win penalties. MOTD showed none of them so no idea if we were diving or robbed.
Sky Sports highlights showed the Rogers one. It does look like two hands in his back.
It definitely was 2 hands in the back, but the way Rogers falls was not realistic. A push in the back will cause you to stumble forward, Rogers throws his feet backwards to fall, just doesn't look natural, and ref right not to give it
So, by the same logic, it shouldn't have been a push against Rogers in the second half, when their bloke collapsed in a heap and grabbed the ball, so we should have had a penalty for handball.
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The gap between the profesionalim of the sport and the competence of the officials is the greatest of any sport.
It looks like they have created through VAR and their new supposedly random interpretations of the laws the ability to arbitrarily decide the outcomes of games and to hide behind the vagueness of those interpretations.
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I thought he was decent today, let a lot go for both sides which allowed the game to flow reasonably well.
My one complaint of our boys today was they were throwing themselves to the floor under any contact in penalty box, we’d be better staying on our feet and trying to score.
Viewed from the Holte upper, so 100m away in the first half, I thought it looked like we dived a few times in the first half to try to win penalties. MOTD showed none of them so no idea if we were diving or robbed.
Sky Sports highlights showed the Rogers one. It does look like two hands in his back.
It definitely was 2 hands in the back, but the way Rogers falls was not realistic. A push in the back will cause you to stumble forward, Rogers throws his feet backwards to fall, just doesn't look natural, and ref right not to give it
So, by the same logic, it shouldn't have been a push against Rogers in the second half, when their bloke collapsed in a heap and grabbed the ball, so we should have had a penalty for handball.
He falls and grabs the ball in the box with no whistle having been blown.
No different to Tyrone picking up the ball in Bruges.
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The gap between the profesionalim of the sport and the competence of the officials is the greatest of any sport.
It looks like they have created through VAR and their new supposedly random interpretations of the laws the ability to arbitrarily decide the outcomes of games and to hide behind the vagueness of those interpretations.
Well put. A perfect example of this was the "offside" Liverpool goal at Fulham that was allowed to stand because apparently there's an inbuilt allowance of 5cm to account for imperfections in the var system. Strange that when in other games they're willing to use the width of a toe nail or a nasal hair to decide an outcome! I'm amazed that the multi billionaires that own some of the clubs allow VAR to affect the outcome of games depending on the whims of whoever happens to be in charge on the day.
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There has been a vaguness in interpretations since the "rules" were laid out in the 1800's. It is nothing new at all.
As for the 5 cms. It has been there in England for a few years and just means they use thicker lines to account for the frame hit of the ball not being picked up if between frames. All the clubs asked for it to be extended even more for this season.
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The gap between the profesionalim of the sport and the competence of the officials is the greatest of any sport.
It looks like they have created through VAR and their new supposedly random interpretations of the laws the ability to arbitrarily decide the outcomes of games and to hide behind the vagueness of those interpretations.
Well put. A perfect example of this was the "offside" Liverpool goal at Fulham that was allowed to stand because apparently there's an inbuilt allowance of 5cm to account for imperfections in the var system. Strange that when in other games they're willing to use the width of a toe nail or a nasal hair to decide an outcome! I'm amazed that the multi billionaires that own some of the clubs allow VAR to affect the outcome of games depending on the whims of whoever happens to be in charge on the day.
They overruled the on pitch decision. I thought it had to be a clear and obvious error to do that. It looked offside so they had no right to change it. Incompetent or bent or both.
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Offside check is a clear and obvious decision though. Someone either is or isn't and the offside flag on the field would only make a difference ONLY if the tech couldn't make a decision because of players blocking the camera views. I definitely wouldn't be basing a decision on lines of mowed grass or camera angles (unless fully lined up) as I doubt the groundsmen use use calibrated equipment to ensure a line is fully 90degrees to the sidelines.
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The gap between the profesionalim of the sport and the competence of the officials is the greatest of any sport.
It looks like they have created through VAR and their new supposedly random interpretations of the laws the ability to arbitrarily decide the outcomes of games and to hide behind the vagueness of those interpretations.
Well put. A perfect example of this was the "offside" Liverpool goal at Fulham that was allowed to stand because apparently there's an inbuilt allowance of 5cm to account for imperfections in the var system. Strange that when in other games they're willing to use the width of a toe nail or a nasal hair to decide an outcome! I'm amazed that the multi billionaires that own some of the clubs allow VAR to affect the outcome of games depending on the whims of whoever happens to be in charge on the day.
It’s strange isn’t it that theses “ marginal “ decisions allways seem to favour certain clubs. Arsenal appear to be a main beneficiary.
As someone on here said, not sending Merino off meant there would not be the uproar if that had proved a pivotal decision. They gave the goal despite an obvious foul on Martinez.
Some of the stuff going on with PGMOL is incompetence but it’s beginning to look like more sinister motives are at play.
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The gap between the profesionalim of the sport and the competence of the officials is the greatest of any sport.
It looks like they have created through VAR and their new supposedly random interpretations of the laws the ability to arbitrarily decide the outcomes of games and to hide behind the vagueness of those interpretations.
Well put. A perfect example of this was the "offside" Liverpool goal at Fulham that was allowed to stand because apparently there's an inbuilt allowance of 5cm to account for imperfections in the var system. Strange that when in other games they're willing to use the width of a toe nail or a nasal hair to decide an outcome! I'm amazed that the multi billionaires that own some of the clubs allow VAR to affect the outcome of games depending on the whims of whoever happens to be in charge on the day.
It’s strange isn’t it that theses “ marginal “ decisions allways seem to favour certain clubs. Arsenal appear to be a main beneficiary.
As someone on here said, not sending Merino off meant there would not be the uproar if that had proved a pivotal decision. They gave the goal despite an obvious foul on Martinez.
Some of the stuff going on with PGMOL is incompetence but it’s beginning to look like more sinister motives are at play.
It's incompetence first and foremost, with a healthy dose of unconcious bias that we're all well capable of. But as they will not acknowledge said bias then they'll never take steps to counter it and it will always be there, and I sometimes feel those in charge like to leave a little grey area for this to manifest itself when required.
Put it this way, if unconcious bias led to ref's always favouring the underdog for some reason, it would be highlighted and stamped out immediately.
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How many 50/50 decisions have seen one of the Sky 6 ripped off in favour of someone else? I can't recall many. It's another layer of bias to navigate in games against them. Was there some table last season that said we'd suffered the most incorrect VAR decisions, something like 9 of them.
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This 5cm tolerance on tight offsides that VAR has seemingly just made up is absolute bollocks.
When has this ever been mentioned before ? What other teams have benefitted from it?
It absolutely stinks of fucking cheating to give the chosen ones the benefit of any doubt possible.
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It has been going for a few years in England, just not on the continent. My concern would be why the defenders foot did not not seem to be at the same angle in the SAOT graphic compared to when the frozen picture was done as that definitely made a lot of difference to the call.
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Offside check is a clear and obvious decision though. Someone either is or isn't and the offside flag on the field would only make a difference ONLY if the tech couldn't make a decision because of players blocking the camera views. I definitely wouldn't be basing a decision on lines of mowed grass or camera angles (unless fully lined up) as I doubt the groundsmen use use calibrated equipment to ensure a line is fully 90degrees to the sidelines.
Sorry but I disagree. When you say someone is either on or offside it's really not that simple. It can be that simple but only when they use the available technology that determines the exact moment that the ball leaves the passing players boot. That's what occurs across Europe but not in this country. It is still down to the discretion of whoever is in charge on the day as to which frame they use. Go forward one frame which is 1/100th of a second and a player is offside. Use the previous frame and hey presto he's onside. The question is this: Given that the PL is the richest league in the world why are we the only ones sticking to a "Semi automated system" when the technology is available to stop all this nonsense and you can rightly say "someone is either on or offside"
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For your first point, that is why additional line thickness was added at the request of the clubs. And I'm not sure on your last line as everyone's setup is SAOT, ie the computer works out where everyone is and tries to confirm offside, then the VAR person confirms it or overrides if there is an issue. Even with that system there is still the frame issue you are complaining about. But as we saw last season when ManU were given a last minute equaliser in the FA Cup when Maguire was a yard offside, I prefer VAR then not to stop those happening. If it means mm calls are still vague then I won't be complaining or stating the tech is not fit for purpose.
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The picture they used for the decision does not look like the actual frame to me. Wirtz's knee is in a different position and so is the defenders foot.
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The picture they used for the decision does not look like the actual frame to me. Wirtz's knee is in a different position and so is the defenders foot.
As I said earlier, a similar thing happened with one of theirs at Leeds.
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For your first point, that is why additional line thickness was added at the request of the clubs. And I'm not sure on your last line as everyone's setup is SAOT, ie the computer works out where everyone is and tries to confirm offside, then the VAR person confirms it or overrides if there is an issue. Even with that system there is still the frame issue you are complaining about. But as we saw last season when ManU were given a last minute equaliser in the FA Cup when Maguire was a yard offside, I prefer VAR then not to stop those happening. If it means mm calls are still vague then I won't be complaining or stating the tech is not fit for purpose.
The chip in the ball which we don't use in this country is crucial. That pinpoints the exact moment the ball is passed and identifies which frame they use. It's not up for debate or down to the discretion of someone sat in a cosy room a hundred miles away. That 50mm allowance is nonsense that's being spouted by VAR to cover up it's mistake. They are giving offsides for a nasal hair being offside but on this occasion they decided to implement the 5cm allowance rule.
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For your first point, that is why additional line thickness was added at the request of the clubs. And I'm not sure on your last line as everyone's setup is SAOT, ie the computer works out where everyone is and tries to confirm offside, then the VAR person confirms it or overrides if there is an issue. Even with that system there is still the frame issue you are complaining about. But as we saw last season when ManU were given a last minute equaliser in the FA Cup when Maguire was a yard offside, I prefer VAR then not to stop those happening. If it means mm calls are still vague then I won't be complaining or stating the tech is not fit for purpose.
The chip in the ball which we don't use in this country is crucial. That pinpoints the exact moment the ball is passed and identifies which frame they use. It's not up for debate or down to the discretion of someone sat in a cosy room a hundred miles away. That 50mm allowance is nonsense that's being spouted by VAR to cover up it's mistake. They are giving offsides for a nasal hair being offside but on this occasion they decided to implement the 5cm allowance rule.
Would the goal have been given if it had been scored by Fulham?
We all know the answer.
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For your first point, that is why additional line thickness was added at the request of the clubs. And I'm not sure on your last line as everyone's setup is SAOT, ie the computer works out where everyone is and tries to confirm offside, then the VAR person confirms it or overrides if there is an issue. Even with that system there is still the frame issue you are complaining about. But as we saw last season when ManU were given a last minute equaliser in the FA Cup when Maguire was a yard offside, I prefer VAR then not to stop those happening. If it means mm calls are still vague then I won't be complaining or stating the tech is not fit for purpose.
The chip in the ball which we don't use in this country is crucial. That pinpoints the exact moment the ball is passed and identifies which frame they use. It's not up for debate or down to the discretion of someone sat in a cosy room a hundred miles away. That 50mm allowance is nonsense that's being spouted by VAR to cover up it's mistake. They are giving offsides for a nasal hair being offside but on this occasion they decided to implement the 5cm allowance rule.
Yep, it’s making Var worse than a partially sighted lino. Absolute joke. If I was a Fulham fan I would be fuming.
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When did this "we can be wrong by 5cm" come in and does it always favour the attacking team? A new one on me. I'm not sure its right either, it just means the offside line has moved 5cm so at 6cm you are off.
As ever the referees have a rule they pull out to defend themselves.
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When did this "we can be wrong by 5cm" come in and does it always favour the attacking team? A new one on me. I'm not sure its right either, it just means the offside line has moved 5cm so at 6cm you are off.
As ever the referees have a rule they pull out to defend themselves.
Exactly.
Im sure we have had a couple of goals ruled out by millimetres in the past.
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Another one that gets me is using the defenders arm to make either player on or offside. You can't use your arms to score or defend so why are they in any way relevant?
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Another one that gets me is using the defenders arm to make either player on or offside. You can't use your arms to score or defend so why are they in any way relevant?
I thought the vertical line was from the armpit
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Another one that gets me is using the defenders arm to make either player on or offside. You can't use your arms to score or defend so why are they in any way relevant?
It's not handball until it hits the arm below the shirt line (of a short-sleeved shirt).
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When did this "we can be wrong by 5cm" come in and does it always favour the attacking team? A new one on me. I'm not sure its right either, it just means the offside line has moved 5cm so at 6cm you are off.
As ever the referees have a rule they pull out to defend themselves.
Exactly.
Im sure we have had a couple of goals ruled out by millimetres in the past.
We have and so have many other clubs. This is the point I've been trying to make on here. VAR suddenly invoke the 5cm tolerance rule on Saturday to allow a goal that was offside to everyone that saw it. Even Jamie Carragher said so at the time. The question is why? If it means they're going to stop disallowing goals because of a toenail being offside I'm all for it. I look forward to the next time that happens and I would expect the club involved to be asking "what about the 5cm tolerance you used to allow Liverpool's goal at Fulham?"
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Another one that gets me is using the defenders arm to make either player on or offside. You can't use your arms to score or defend so why are they in any way relevant?
I thought the vertical line was from the armpit
It’s where they decide it to be.
It is looking more and more like deliberate manipulation.
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For your first point, that is why additional line thickness was added at the request of the clubs. And I'm not sure on your last line as everyone's setup is SAOT, ie the computer works out where everyone is and tries to confirm offside, then the VAR person confirms it or overrides if there is an issue. Even with that system there is still the frame issue you are complaining about. But as we saw last season when ManU were given a last minute equaliser in the FA Cup when Maguire was a yard offside, I prefer VAR then not to stop those happening. If it means mm calls are still vague then I won't be complaining or stating the tech is not fit for purpose.
Completely agree. I've also been guilty of paying to much heed to how the lines in the grass are as if the groundsman have to be 100% accurate straight lines.
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Even at local l Sunday league level you always had referees favouring certain teams
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Even at local l Sunday league level you always had referees favouring certain teams
I played in a league where the refs were affiliated to the clubs you played against, talk about homers.
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Arsenal's third goal against us looked well offside to me, but there was barely any mention of it at all. They just make it up as they go along.
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Another shocker, how these guys sleep at night.
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Last night’s wasn’t a shocker. Tielemans pen could have gone either way but wasn’t a howler in my view. The handball pen would have been very harsh on them.
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Last night’s wasn’t a shocker. Tielemans pen could have gone either way but wasn’t a howler in my view. The handball pen would have been very harsh on them.
...but is more likely to have been given to 'other' teams. I'm glad Unai had a word with the ref last night. There's only so long you can take these things on the chin.
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Last night’s wasn’t a shocker. Tielemans pen could have gone either way but wasn’t a howler in my view. The handball pen would have been very harsh on them.
I think the Tielemans one is a definite penalty any other season but for some reason they're allowing carnage in the box from set pieces this season so no surprise we didn't get it. As for the hand ball let's be honest who knows anymore? They've tied themselves up in knots with handball penalties and the rules seem to change and evolve on a weekly basis. Against Chelsea we could of conceded a penalty when the ball hit Maatsens arm. They didn't give the penalty because he was wasn't looking at the ball and his arm was deemed to be in a natural position. Last night Leeds conceded a penalty when the ball hit their players arm even though he was jumping and was looking away from the ball. They must've thought his arm wasn't in a natural position. God knows how because how is it possible to generate lift without raising your arms? Imagine a high jumper trying to jump over a bar but having to keep his arms by his side. It's ludicrous. So sometimes we would of gotten a penalty for handball last night. Sometimes not. All depends on the referees mood at the time.
I understand Unai Emery's frustration. PMGOL officials have finally broke the most mild mannered and fair minded manager you could wish for.
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I don't have a problem with the handball shouts from last night not being given, one was blasted at him the other was knocked into him from a yard away. The Tielemans one though should be nailed on, even more so than the multiple times Rogers was hauled down throughout the match.
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We are getting a few, “not enough contact” decisions. I am struggling to understand how much contact is now needed unless you are the favoured few, then it’s minimal.
The problem is the ineptitude and wide interpretations are making it look like corruption.
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I don't have a problem with the handball shouts from last night not being given, one was blasted at him the other was knocked into him from a yard away. The Tielemans one though should be nailed on, even more so than the multiple times Rogers was hauled down throughout the match.
Absolutely. There was one instance in the second half where two or three of there players were pushing and pulling him from pillar to post for a good 10 seconds and the ref saw nothing wrong. Minutes later Mcginn was in a 50/50 tussle with Adam Wharton and he immediately gave a foul against us. Mcginn pointed straight over to Rogers and put his head in his hands. I'm not saying it's corruption I'm saying it's incompetence and it's inconsistent.
I think that's what caused Emery to snap.
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This 'letting the game flow' nonsense is just 'allowed fouling'. It favours teams like Forest, Palace and Newcastle. We get fuck all protection from refs and it must be driving Unai mental.
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I disagree on the Tielemans one, I think that's an awful decision, he's not shirt pulling or holding an arm or something, he's got an arm wrapped around him, there's no interpretation of the laws that make that ok. It was a clear penalty for me and could easily have been a 2nd booking for Johnson as well.
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I’d love to know why it wasn’t a foul?
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Each decision was subjective but the approach was the issue for me.
Each one was checked and summarily dismissed in a matter of seconds as if clear cut and the game restarted. Compare that with multi angle replays and endless pouring over of the decision in other games Now, I don't want to see that every game but where or what are the parameters? The lines weren't used in the Woolwich offside last week, it was tight but why not? We barely saw a replay to make our own judgement.
I'll come back to my point about the game last week, the officials apply the rules with a subconscious bias and to avoid intense scrutiny. Or in the case of last night, it's only Palace v Villa, who cares?
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We have the best competition in the world, no other leagues come close.
It’s time to ensure the officials are of the necessary standard.
The current PGMOL set up is certainly nowhere near.
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The penalty decision, which was given, in the Newcastle v Leeds game looked very similar to one in our game which wasn't. Consistency from game to game is appalling.
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You can wave play on/advantage, by all means; it doesn't mean you can't go back and book a thuggish tackle by Hughes, who would then rightly be 'on watch' for the rest of the game
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You can wave play on/advantage, by all means; it doesn't mean you can't go back and book a thuggish tackle by Hughes, who would then rightly be 'on watch' for the rest of the game
Correct.
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The penalty decision, which was given, in the Newcastle v Leeds game looked very similar to one in our game which wasn't. Consistency from game to game is appalling.
Surely the managers, referees and the PGMOL need to meet regularly to look over matches played, maybe spot check certain games. If pundits, fans and managers are noticing so many inconsistencies it's about time this was under some kind of regular review, not just to be critical, but to try and get all referees, authorities, players and managers on the same page as consistently as possible.
I get that so many decisions are subjective, but its the different outcomes to the same play that bothers me most.
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I think the refs are generally ok.
The big issues for me is consistency. Specifically the Sky 6 vs everyone else.
There are instances which are by the letter of the law fouls but often not given. This degree of subjectivity is a huge issue and enables favouritism. the refs don't necessarily explicitly want the big teams to win but they don't want to piss them off as they'd be precluded from doing these "big games" in the future and also face a media backlash. It seems to me the Sky6 get them in their favour each time.
For example - not giving yellows if its a second yellow, letting the game flow (see above), not being a clear and obvious error, 5cm rule pulled from nowhere, grabbing in the penalty area, the handball law fiasco.
Now I possible strive for an impossible level of consistency, which I can accept is impossible. But if these subjective decisions were "evening out over the season" then I would agree but they are almost always in favour of the Sky6.
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I think the refs are generally ok.
The big issues for me is consistency. Specifically the Sky 6 vs everyone else.
There are instances which are by the letter of the law fouls but often not given. This degree of subjectivity is a huge issue and enables favouritism. the refs don't necessarily explicitly want the big teams to win but they don't want to piss them off as they'd be precluded from doing these "big games" in the future and also face a media backlash. It seems to me the Sky6 get them in their favour each time.
For example - not giving yellows if its a second yellow, letting the game flow (see above), not being a clear and obvious error, 5cm rule pulled from nowhere, grabbing in the penalty area, the handball law fiasco.
Now I possible strive for an impossible level of consistency, which I can accept is impossible. But if these subjective decisions were "evening out over the season" then I would agree but they are almost always in favour of the Sky6.
I agree with all that but fail to see how you conclude the refs are generally ok?
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We have the best competition in the world, no other leagues come close.
It’s time to ensure the officials are of the necessary standard.
The current PGMOL set up is certainly nowhere near.
We could start by using top officials from across Europe. Moneys no object so they could be flown in on match days. At least that would cut out the notion of bias in favour of the top English clubs.
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The penalty decision, which was given, in the Newcastle v Leeds game looked very similar to one in our game which wasn't. Consistency from game to game is appalling.
Surely the managers, referees and the PGMOL need to meet regularly to look over matches played, maybe spot check certain games. If pundits, fans and managers are noticing so many inconsistencies it's about time this was under some kind of regular review, not just to be critical, but to try and get all referees, authorities, players and managers on the same page as consistently as possible.
I get that so many decisions are subjective, but its the different outcomes to the same play that bothers me most.
You know what I would like to see, is a panel of Refs locked in a room on a Saturday afternoon, so they can't see or hear any results. Then, that evening, they're each shown a dozen incidents from across the games, that were either penalties, not penalties, VAR reviews (not offside, obv) and so on, and see what level of consistency we get. They all see the same incidents, with the same angles. If they all agree on every decision, then fair enough, we have to hold our hands up and say maybe they're not that different.
But if there ARE discrepancies, particularly over the award/denial of penalties, then it would show that we need to discuss them in the open so fans and teams alike can get some clarity on these things.
My personal bugbear is things that are fouls all over the pitch, being 'let go' because they're in the area and would result in a penalty. I don't think there is anything in the laws of the game about there being a 'higher' standard for a penalty, but clearly there is. If Johnson did to Youri what he did in the box, but on the halfway line while we were trying to break, he'd get booked - no question.
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The penalty decision, which was given, in the Newcastle v Leeds game looked very similar to one in our game which wasn't. Consistency from game to game is appalling.
Surely the managers, referees and the PGMOL need to meet regularly to look over matches played, maybe spot check certain games. If pundits, fans and managers are noticing so many inconsistencies it's about time this was under some kind of regular review, not just to be critical, but to try and get all referees, authorities, players and managers on the same page as consistently as possible.
I get that so many decisions are subjective, but its the different outcomes to the same play that bothers me most.
You know what I would like to see, is a panel of Refs locked in a room on a Saturday afternoon, so they can't see or hear any results. Then, that evening, they're each shown a dozen incidents from across the games, that were either penalties, not penalties, VAR reviews (not offside, obv) and so on, and see what level of consistency we get. They all see the same incidents, with the same angles. If they all agree on every decision, then fair enough, we have to hold our hands up and say maybe they're not that different.
But if there ARE discrepancies, particularly over the award/denial of penalties, then it would show that we need to discuss them in the open so fans and teams alike can get some clarity on these things.
My personal bugbear is things that are fouls all over the pitch, being 'let go' because they're in the area and would result in a penalty. I don't think there is anything in the laws of the game about there being a 'higher' standard for a penalty, but clearly there is. If Johnson did to Youri what he did in the box, but on the halfway line while we were trying to break, he'd get booked - no question.
I love the idea of locking up referees. But wouldn’t this idea just prove that there is always an element of subjectivity and judgment. By definition that means you can’t get consistency. If a pen could be given or not be given then we can talk about it all day long - you’ll still end up with one ref giving it and another not giving it.
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The penalty decision, which was given, in the Newcastle v Leeds game looked very similar to one in our game which wasn't. Consistency from game to game is appalling.
Surely the managers, referees and the PGMOL need to meet regularly to look over matches played, maybe spot check certain games. If pundits, fans and managers are noticing so many inconsistencies it's about time this was under some kind of regular review, not just to be critical, but to try and get all referees, authorities, players and managers on the same page as consistently as possible.
I get that so many decisions are subjective, but its the different outcomes to the same play that bothers me most.
You know what I would like to see, is a panel of Refs locked in a room on a Saturday afternoon, so they can't see or hear any results. Then, that evening, they're each shown a dozen incidents from across the games, that were either penalties, not penalties, VAR reviews (not offside, obv) and so on, and see what level of consistency we get. They all see the same incidents, with the same angles. If they all agree on every decision, then fair enough, we have to hold our hands up and say maybe they're not that different.
But if there ARE discrepancies, particularly over the award/denial of penalties, then it would show that we need to discuss them in the open so fans and teams alike can get some clarity on these things.
My personal bugbear is things that are fouls all over the pitch, being 'let go' because they're in the area and would result in a penalty. I don't think there is anything in the laws of the game about there being a 'higher' standard for a penalty, but clearly there is. If Johnson did to Youri what he did in the box, but on the halfway line while we were trying to break, he'd get booked - no question then a load of just fed pigeons thrown in as well.
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For me the biggest issue is that the 'what if I'm wrong?' question that comes up on big/important decisions.
If you make a bad call against Arsenal it's going to be huge story in the press for ages, you'll probably get taken off games, etc.
If you make the same call against Bournemouth it's a footnote to the story and nothing much happens.
That means the threshold to give a red card for a clear 2nd booking is higher for some than it is for others and that's the inconsistency that we all hate.
On top of that you then also have the club/player reputation. Newcastle right now have a reputation for being aggressive which means refs go into their games knowing there's going to be challenges that the opposition will be upset about and that fore-knowledge sits there and has the ref thinking that if he's too card happy he'll lose control so he lets a few go and it means they keep kicking people until he eventually reaches for a card. This is exactly why Hughes got away with his clear yellow on McGinn the other night.
Forest and Wolves seem to have decided that they were going to try to 'solve' this by whining and, given it has worked to a degreee I can see us starting to follow their lead a little. We've definitely been a little more willing to call things out since Man U one.
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For me the biggest issue is that the 'what if I'm wrong?' question that comes up on big/important decisions.
If you make a bad call against Arsenal it's going to be huge story in the press for ages, you'll probably get taken off games, etc.
If you make the same call against Bournemouth it's a footnote to the story and nothing much happens.
That means the threshold to give a red card for a clear 2nd booking is higher for some than it is for others and that's the inconsistency that we all hate.
On top of that you then also have the club/player reputation. Newcastle right now have a reputation for being aggressive which means refs go into their games knowing there's going to be challenges that the opposition will be upset about and that fore-knowledge sits there and has the ref thinking that if he's too card happy he'll lose control so he lets a few go and it means they keep kicking people until he eventually reaches for a card. This is exactly why Hughes got away with his clear yellow on McGinn the other night.
Forest and Wolves seem to have decided that they were going to try to 'solve' this by whining and, given it has worked to a degreee I can see us starting to follow their lead a little. We've definitely been a little more willing to call things out since Man U one.
The squeaky wheel always gets the grease
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The opening of our game today. Shocking.
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We have the best competition in the world, no other leagues come close.
It’s time to ensure the officials are of the necessary standard.
The current PGMOL set up is certainly nowhere near.
We could start by using top officials from across Europe. Moneys no object so they could be flown in on match days. At least that would cut out the notion of bias in favour of the top English clubs.
Other than the officials we've come up against in our three seasons in europe have been worse
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I hope we make a point about the two unpunished challenges.
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The referee pulled play back when he didn't need to. He was often too quick to give a free kick instead of taking a note of the player doing the foul. and going back to him afterwards At one point, I think it was Buendia, was fouled and we played a lovely ball through and the referee pulled us back, therefore, punishing us twice. I thought he was poor and failed to control some of Spurs thuggery.
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Spurs clearly took advantage of the fact that there was no VAR.
Letting the game breathe early on by not issuing yellow cards for bad tackles is total bollocks btw.
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As has just been proved in the charlton match. Booking after 5 mins.
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Spurs clearly took advantage of the fact that there was no VAR.
Letting the game breathe early on by not issuing yellow cards for bad tackles is total bollocks btw.
It's the Vidic factor.
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The opening of our game today. Shocking.
Yes and led to the thuggery that was taken out on Kamara.
To then not book Palinha was a disgrace and just encouraged them to do more.
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Like I said elsewhere, it took him 85 mins to book Palinha but books Garcia two minutes after he came on. Fucking laughable really.
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Like I said elsewhere, it took him 85 mins to book Palinha but books Garcia two minutes after he came on. Fucking laughable really.
Same with Forest and Bogarde last week.
I get the feeling we've had enough, both the players and management, and the gloves are coming off.
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Like I said elsewhere, it took him 85 mins to book Palinha but books Garcia two minutes after he came on. Fucking laughable really.
Same with Forest and Bogarde last week.
I get the feeling we've had enough, both the players and management, and the gloves are coming off.
Yep. About time too.
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Word of praise for the linesmen last night who were spot on with their decisions for the 2 Spurs offside “goals”
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That there is 2 tier officiating is not for debate. It's blatant and being done in plain sight.
There's no question if Villa had fielded a thug like Paulinho yesterday, marching orders would have been issued.
Villa fans are brilliant on the holte in continuing to chant "premier league refs, corrupt as f**k"...but are we the only fans keeping this front and centre?I don't follow any other football on tv, so have no idea, but it seems to me the fans of 14 clubs in the PL need to keep repeating this message loud and clear in order that something positive changes with regards to refereeing standards. Eventually when it suits, the written and visual media will be implored to exert pressure.
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To be honest every set of fans have started chanting it every time a decision goes against them, so I think it's lists its power a bit.
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The PMGOL are accountable to nobody, they'll always defend their own and there's far too many bad refs out there stealing a living, the worst with FIFA badges, though yesterdays was as bad as they come. It's reached the stage where I no longer have any confidence in the referee and the PMGOL.
A thought crossed my mind last night on how to resolve the piss take that is the PMGOL, bring in Pierluigi Collina to run it and get the house in order. If people think they're doing their best and it is what it is, stop complaining, we'll never resolve the poor state of referees in the country.
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I have long said OGMOL should be disbanded and overseas referees brought in until a new association can be established with a completely new set of officials.
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I wouldn’t worry too much about changing for overseas refs. You should see the penalty Inter just got vs Napoli.
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I wouldn’t worry too much about changing for overseas refs. You should see the penalty Inter just got vs Napoli.
The referee had a great view of the penalty incident in real time, and gave no penalty. The penalty was effectively imposed by VAR. Up until that point, for 70 mins or so, the game had been refereed very well.
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I have long said OGMOL should be disbanded and overseas referees brought in until a new association can be established with a completely new set of officials.
It's a limited company and completely self serving starting at the top. If we can't cancel the PL contract, though I understand referees are all self employed or at least that's what OGMOL told HMRC, at least get the bloody thing to work.
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PL’s Key Match Incidents Panel have told Villa that Andre and Merino should have been given second yellow cards in the Wolves and Arsenal (a) matches respectively.
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Fat lot of good it does for us now. All while the national football media waxed lyrical about Arsenal’s win, it might have been different if we played the rest of the way against 10 men. Those are massive decisions that a ref, his assistants and VAR have to get right. And this one wasn’t even close.
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Fat lot of good it does for us now. All while the national football media waxed lyrical about Arsenal’s win, it might have been different if we played the rest of the way against 10 men. Those are massive decisions that a ref, his assistants and VAR have to get right. And this one wasn’t even close.
So @Bosey1982 you let the cat out of the bag there with your copying and pasting 😂
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Fat lot of good it does for us now. All while the national football media waxed lyrical about Arsenal’s win, it might have been different if we played the rest of the way against 10 men. Those are massive decisions that a ref, his assistants and VAR have to get right. And this one wasn’t even close.
VAR couldn't intervene for a second yellow could it, only direct reds?
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Like I said elsewhere, it took him 85 mins to book Palinha but books Garcia two minutes after he came on. Fucking laughable really.
Same with Forest and Bogarde last week.
I get the feeling we've had enough, both the players and management, and the gloves are coming off.
Yep. About time too.
If they are not going to do their jobs properly then we have little choice but to do what needs to be done to protect ourselves.
It was very clear that on Sunday that the Tottenham instruction was to leave a little bit on our players with tackles as there’d be no punishment with VAR not utilised. That the ref, I can’t remember his name and I no wish to know it either chose to let things go for the benefit of making it a full blooded cup tie is a dereliction of his duty. Do your fucking job when it’s clear what’s happening on the pitch. To then start waving cards at Villa players for tackles but no way bookable in comparison to what went before is laughable. Surely he knew that Palinha is a dirty player if most fans clearly know he is?
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Fat lot of good it does for us now. All while the national football media waxed lyrical about Arsenal’s win, it might have been different if we played the rest of the way against 10 men. Those are massive decisions that a ref, his assistants and VAR have to get right. And this one wasn’t even close.
So @Bosey1982 you let the cat out of the bag there with your copying and pasting 😂
Haha I’m busted
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A blind man on a galloping horse could see the Merino one. It doesn't mention the two blatant bookings that Saka got away with either. I don't remember the Andre one. Another startling statistic was that of all the decisions that the panel say were wrong FORTY per cent were against us. Yes that's right FORTY per cent.
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That’s not true is it?
13 errors 0 involving us
5 missed yellows 2 involving us
15 other errors, 1 in our favour.
So 3 of 33, 9%.
I’d say that’s par.
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That’s not true is it?
13 errors 0 involving us
5 missed yellows 2 involving us
15 other errors, 1 in our favour.
So 3 of 33, 9%.
I’d say that’s par.
Ok I've re-read the article. It actually focuses specifically on incidents where a player should of recieved a second yellow but didn't. They highlighted five incidents so far this season. Two out of five involved Aston Villa. Merino and Andre who they said both escaped the second yellow.
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Did we ever receive an apology for the flying elbow (unpunished) that laid little Emi out against Burnley?
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Did PGMOL ever comment on the Old Trafford fiasco last season. Some of the decisions mentioned today seem marginal in comparison.
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Did PGMOL ever comment on the Old Trafford fiasco last season. Some of the decisions mentioned today seem marginal in comparison.
Ref blew the whistle before ball hit the net unfortunately. nothing for them to look at.
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PGMOL are still responsible for the onfield officials as well as VAR and they have reprimanded refs making mistakes by calling an onfield decision early before VAR. They even have the contentious decisions panel and last season had the monthly review of mistakes with boring Owen or on Sky. However none of those ever made any comments after week 36 games.
A newspaper article (Times?) has something a few months ago stating PGMOL had apologised a few weeks later but nothing seems to have ever been made public about it like other times they have done similar during the season.
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Did we ever receive an apology for the flying elbow (unpunished) that laid little Emi out against Burnley?
Because it was a ''flying'' elbow by the letter of the law flying wasn't a recognized action in which it's contact would cause any consequence. As the flying took place before the elbow the law had to first be applied to the flying part of the action and not the elbow. Since then the rules have been re-written to acknowledge both actions taking place at the same time and under current rules it would be a red card offence. As those were the rules at the time there was nothing VAR could do about it.
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Did PGMOL ever comment on the Old Trafford fiasco last season. Some of the decisions mentioned today seem marginal in comparison.
Ref blew the whistle before ball hit the net unfortunately. nothing for them to look at.
The one to look at there was why a totally inexperienced ref who'd been doing Championship games with no VAR was given one of only the few games that had anything still riding on it, and the experienced ref was at Stockley Park.
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Did PGMOL ever comment on the Old Trafford fiasco last season. Some of the decisions mentioned today seem marginal in comparison.
Ref blew the whistle before ball hit the net unfortunately. nothing for them to look at.
The one to look at there was why a totally inexperienced ref who'd been doing Championship games with no VAR was given one of only the few games that had anything still riding on it, and the experienced ref was at Stockley Park.
Which is exactly the complaint the club put in.
I do think we should've also pressed on whether the official ruling in those situations is to blow early or let the play go until the shot is complete and then review. By any logical assessment it should be the latter because you can still give the foul after the ball is in the net, even without a VAR review, but you can't award the goal if you blew early and got it wrong.
The reason that matters is because getting the decision wrong is fine for an inexperienced ref but if he did that whilst also not following the correct procedure then something has gone seriously wrong, and in doing so has cost us about 10% of our revenue.
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Did PGMOL ever comment on the Old Trafford fiasco last season. Some of the decisions mentioned today seem marginal in comparison.
They wrote the club a letter of apology over disallowing Morgan’s goal. Apparently we had the most wrong decisions against in the league that season, and the season before I think.
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I don't know this is a thing or not but when they announce the match officials for upcoming games can clubs raise any concerns they may have about the choices? Surely the club would have pointed out his lack of experience with VAR if we had the opportunity. Thomas Bramwell was woefully lacking in experience for a match with such high stakes.
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Given they are able to make a subjective call over whether the goalie could have got to a shot or not to ascertain if a player offside is interfering with play, I am open to removing the prioritisation of the whistle being blown and being able to rectify an obvious error.
It is clear the goal would have been scored regardless of the whistle so there should be the opportunity to rectify it real time. The apology after is no help.
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Villa and spurs charged after the melee at the end of the FA cup game.
I doubt there will be any wording of the charge that includes the tackle on Kamara which went unpunished and set the tone for the game.
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Surely Villa's defence to the charge, or mitigation, will include the various assaults on our players during the game which drew no appropriate punishment.
And presumably we can look forward to Arsenal and Liverpool being handed similar charges, in respect of the scrap which broke out in their game last week, following Martinelli's assault on a player lying seriously injured on the ground.
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The FA have brought the charges because it was an FA game. It is up to the Premier League to charge Liverpool/Arsenal so don't expect that to happen.
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Happy 5th anniversary of this not being offside
(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/2b137b4e52f16f37cf38c5174c7e25b1)
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I remember that birthday present from five years ago, courtesy of Jonathan Moss, hot contender for the title of anti-Villa referee for all time.
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We only get bent refs!
Garner of Everton vs Villa...
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We truly have been fucked over. Not saying we would have won either game but vs 10 men 0-2 down at Arsenal we have a shot of getting back into the game. Against Everton I’d have put good money on us winning that. Fucking bullshit
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(https://i.ibb.co/4Z1VpSp5/IMG-2687.png) (https://ibb.co/4Z1VpSp5)
Of course…
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Rubbish
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We are getting shafted.
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A yellow card against Villa is basically immunity from prosecution for the rest of the game.
Last team to have a player sent off for two bookings against us was Wednesbury Old Athletic*.
* this has not been fact-checked.
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In the old days these things evened themselves out...doesn't seem that way anymore.
How can you be the most affected team by poor officials decisions for 2 years in a row????
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We haven’t had a penalty all season either.
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Apologies are Not Admissions of Liability: While the PGMOL frequently issues apologies for "significant human error," these are acknowledgments of mistakes rather than legal admissions that would allow for lawsuits.
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The two decisions weren’t even close that from the naked eye you could have seen them the other way. It’s clear and obvious that both are straightforward second yellows. Useless twats
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Fortunately, because we have been winning games some of the performances of the referees have gone largely overlooked. The referee we had on Sunday was absolute Tosh. He made some awful decisions and she should not be refereeing at that standard of the game. Complete knob.
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
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Wasn’t so bothered about the 2nd yellow it was the free kick from 20 yards that I wanted.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cwyr2ye2y52o
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
Sorry mate, their first priorities are players' safety and to referee the game in a fair and impartial manner and sadly this doesn't seem to be happening.
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Wasn’t so bothered about the 2nd yellow it was the free kick from 20 yards that I wanted.
I believe it was because he would have had to give the 2nd yellow that he bottled the decision to give the freekick. Obviously "would" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence but he would have shown he had seen the two handed push and decided it wasn't a bookable offence if he had called the offence which would have been more specific marks down then pretending he hadn't seen it at all.
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
Sorry mate, their first priorities are players' safety and to referee the game in a fair and impartial manner and sadly this doesn't seem to be happening.
Exactly this, pushing and shoving constantly, jumping into goalkeepers before the ball arrives, over the top tackles let go to allow the game to flow. None of this should be the modus operandi.
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
Sorry mate, their first priorities are players' safety and to referee the game in a fair and impartial manner and sadly this doesn't seem to be happening.
I think Moseley is taking the piss out of the commentary when neither Spurs player was booked against us the other week.
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The standard is the lowest it's been. The most fouled team comfortably but 0 penalties and only 1 red card against this season.
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Happy 5th anniversary of this not being offside
(https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/2b137b4e52f16f37cf38c5174c7e25b1)
What was the reasoning they gave why this stood? I remember it being weird.
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It was man city and the rules were changed a week later.
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It was because Mings controlled the ball, so Rodri stopped being offside, and was able to come back and tackle him (new phase of play etc)
Had Mings tried to control it but the ball broke through to him, he'd (supposedly) have been flagged.
Obviously mental, and as above, why they quietly clarified / changed the rule shortly afterwards.
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
I think this was the excuse for not sending Vidic off in the 2010 league cup final.
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
Sorry mate, their first priorities are players' safety and to referee the game in a fair and impartial manner and sadly this doesn't seem to be happening.
Yep. Someone needs to tell them. But at the moment it looks like they’ve had a big meeting at the start of the season where they’ve been instructed to ‘let the game flow’, ‘don’t commit to cards too early’, and other nonsense.
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To be fair to the refs, their first priority is to let the games breathe.
Sorry mate, their first priorities are players' safety and to referee the game in a fair and impartial manner and sadly this doesn't seem to be happening.
Yep. Someone needs to tell them. But at the moment it looks like they’ve had a big meeting at the start of the season where they’ve been instructed to ‘let the game flow’, ‘don’t commit to cards too early’, and other nonsense.
Other nonsense being 'the game's gone soft, we need more crunching tackles 1970s style'. I can only think we missed out on the memo as other clubs stocked up on six foot two, musclebound bruisers in the summer.
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Ahh, yes, 5 years ago at the Emptihad. Exhibit A for proving there is conscious bias towards the Sc@m 6! I never saw anything like it before or since ::)
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Happily, there was a punishment for the offside goal farce.
Dean Smith got a red card for protesting against the ludicrous decision!
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We had the most pro-Villa referee all season tonight.
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Obviously there's our decision today, but also this
(https://scontent.flhr3-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/626489382_1333001292196447_7003456852003463225_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=YIjkjfP8leMQ7kNvwFAw0Bs&_nc_oc=AdmVU9zKIjK8YNTPAzxtw8r4XeCj2XtkIK02bdKRnGTLwOpW0LzvEiwEe3ClIJo-cCE&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-4.fna&_nc_gid=3zAvYM584H5nfvr4RYdC7A&oh=00_AftohI-8R4_0kqeKCFD9aj9EPwl1gPwwijZCAo710I_pAQ&oe=69856993)
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That VAR today just shows the absolute mess of the refereeing in this league. 5 minutes - and they still dont know it is 100% out but they decide to reverse the on pitch decision. Then with 4 minutes left they kick the ball out for a corner, and the ref gives a goal kick. Given the 2 second yellows that should have been given in recent week it just shows that VAR isnt fit for purpose. Would much rather we didnt have it.
Unai said the decision was unfair, but he accepts it. But then to be fair, when the attack started I think Steven Gerrard was still the manager.
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Still raging and posted this in the post-match thread:
There needs to be clarification of that decision today, as I can't see how it can be argued that the officials followed the proper process.
1. How far do you go back to check decisions? Even the explanation they put on the screen was wrong as it said it had "occurred in an attacking phase of play" when Bailey was in fact defending by his own goal line
2. Is that a precedent now that everything needs to be checked when a goal is scored?
3. The VAR officials haven't got the technology to make a definitive decision in those circumstances, so are in fact just guessing and therefore how can that deemed a 'clear and obvious error'?
4. The VAR official made a subjective decision that overruled the on-field decision made by the officials. Surely in those circumstances the ref should be called to the screen to look at it as well?
To end up having a VAR official looking at something for ages and then just guessing isn't acceptable. Not when these decisions can be so costly as we saw with the one at Old Trafford last season.
Even the explanation they gave for the decision was wrong. It would be interesting to hear the audio of the conversation between the officials.
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I was sat in the Trinity and I haven't seen the tv footage yet. Both my son's were watching the game at home on TV. They both said that the ball looked out but there's no definitive angle to confirm it.
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Still raging and posted this in the post-match thread:
There needs to be clarification of that decision today, as I can't see how it can be argued that the officials followed the proper process.
1. How far do you go back to check decisions? Even the explanation they put on the screen was wrong as it said it had "occurred in an attacking phase of play" when Bailey was in fact defending by his own goal line
2. Is that a precedent now that everything needs to be checked when a goal is scored?
3. The VAR officials haven't got the technology to make a definitive decision in those circumstances, so are in fact just guessing and therefore how can that deemed a 'clear and obvious error'?
4. The VAR official made a subjective decision that overruled the on-field decision made by the officials. Surely in those circumstances the ref should be called to the screen to look at it as well?
To end up having a VAR official looking at something for ages and then just guessing isn't acceptable. Not when these decisions can be so costly as we saw with the one at Old Trafford last season.
Even the explanation they gave for the decision was wrong. It would be interesting to hear the audio of the conversation between the officials.
Didn’t they say the ball was “factually” out of play. How can they say that if it is not obviously out of play and if it was. What took so long.
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Is the ball out of play, probably. Is there proof that it is, no. The on-field decision should have stood. Until today, I thought those were the rules.
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I thought once the referee gave the goal it was up to var to prove the ball was definitely out which they didn't do.
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I've never thought the game was intrinsically corrupt. I've always thought the main reason for VAR was to get clicks and hits. I've changed my mind.
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I was sat in the Trinity and I haven't seen the tv footage yet. Both my son's were watching the game at home on TV. They both said that the ball looked out but there's no definitive angle to confirm it.
I'm incredibly confident that it was out but yeah, there is nothing definitve to prove it.
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I thought once the referee gave the goal it was up to var to prove the ball was definitely out which they didn't do.
It was right in front of me and it probably was out, marginally, but that is not definitely out and it seems that they cannot prove it was definitely so.
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The VAR and referees are there to apply the laws of the game, not to think
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Should we be disallowing this based upon probability?
If I were the ref, I’d be asking VAR does it cross the line? Can it be verified? Response “looks like it probably did” “no conclusive image can be found”. OK I’m sticking with the goal. It’s really not that difficult
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Whether the ball was out or not isn't the issue, the whole thing hinges on where phases of play start and end and how far back the scrutiny goes. While that is a loveable feast no one knows where they stand.
But I can tell you this, we stand behind plenty others by the looks of things.
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The thing is if you look at it and the corner flag - and if the ball rolled in a straight line you would have to be 100% sure it would not brush the corner flag to rule it out. And I dont think anyone can from the angle we saw
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Unless there is line technology a la goal line; the on field decision should have stood.
I was hoping the ref was going to stick to his guns.
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Going back to an earlier comment, the ref said the ball was "factually" out of play. Very strange use of word and, I would argue, not true as there was no definitive angle to prove it. The commentator also said something about VAR "recommending" the goal be disallowed. Bizarre and annoying.
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It looked out, but so do a lot of things and when you see them from another angle, part of the ball is over part of the line.
I'd love them to show me how that factually wasn't the case, unless they've got another secret angle we haven't seen. If the goal had stood it would barely have been mentioned.
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They've guessed. There is no evidence it was out, so you've guessed.
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Just seen Howard Webb post in a Facebook group. It's a Photoshop one and he's asking for someone to move the ball a fraction. So we'll see a definitive picture soon.
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I though they said fractionally out of play
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I though they said fractionally out of play
factually
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And just to take the piss, they used the term 'factually' in their explanation.
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When was the last goal ruled out in a similar fashion.....
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I know we’re biased football fans and we only see these things from one perspective, but have there been any controversial or poor ref decisions that have actually gone in our favour this season? I can’t think of any.
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Ive seen a couple not ruled out when it was claimed it went out.
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I get it if the fact the ball goes out actually influenced the goal - like a cross that went out, or a player dribbling past another by taking it out and then scoring - but it had no impact on the actual goal - we didnt gain any form of advantage from it.
If a player had pulled another player down in that break - they would have been booked - and that would of stood. VAR has been appointed. Anyone who campaigned for it to be introduced never thought - oh great this will protect against all the goals where a a ball may have got out by the attacking teams own corner flag, and the cheating bastards go on to have a couple of shots 20 seconds later and one of them goes in.
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I've just heard Robbie Savage the ****** and Chris Sutton say that it was probably the right decision. THAT IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT!
The point is how far do you go back, who is the arbiter of this, where are the guidelines.
Absolute and utter fucking bollocks.
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The issue is "probably". To change the decion they have to be 100% no doubt about it sure. And I'm not convinced they were.
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When the ball went out of play were defending our own goal in fact Bailey was more or less flat on the floor. How can that not be a separate phase of play for that of the goal?
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https://x.com/B6Nigel/status/2018032385640604038/photo/1
I think this shows why - for me at least - this was a mistake. Until we see a top view that shows it out I think they found a reason o disallow the goal
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I have no confidence in them.
We aren't just up against 19 other teams
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The mistake was ruling a goal out on zero conclusive evidence. It might’ve been out, it might’ve been in. The ref and linesman called it in. There was no evidence it was out. Fucking total robbery. 1-1 v 10 men for most the 2nd half and there only one winner. Sorry but that’s a massive balls up from ‘VAR’.
If this was happening to liverspursutd it’d be news for weeks.
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VAR doesn't work and it never will because what it tries to achieve is impossible.
It just throws a load of shit at the game
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Its the inconsistency that pisses me off. I gurantee if thats manure city or arsenal that never gets disallowed
Its just very infuriating
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Its the inconsistency that pisses me off. I gurantee if thats manure city or arsenal that never gets disallowed
Its just very infuriating
Not only that but there wouldnt even be any controversy in the goal being allowed - VAR wouldn’t even check it for being too far back/in a different phase of play
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Its the inconsistency that pisses me off. I gurantee if thats manure city or arsenal that never gets disallowed
Its just very infuriating
Not only that but there wouldnt even be any controversy in the goal being allowed - VAR wouldn’t even check it for being too far back/in a different phase of play
Agree wholeheartedly mate. I wouldn't mind if this was the case. I mean it also infuriates me when you have rogers perfect goal last season and they deny the goal on a stupid technicality. If your saying the balls gone off for a throw you even blow dont look back at something that happened a minute earlier. Why is var getting involved for throw ons anyway?
Its really killing the game gettjng involved in everything
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One of the issues with VAR is that you give somebody a job to do so they are itching to be involved even when there is no need.
And clear and obvious is not something that takes 4 minutes. Clear and obvious is a 5 second thing.
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19 seconds is the longest VAR has ever gone back to disallow a goal apparently. An attack that started the opposite end of the pitch too. Another terrible decision.
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From a couple of years ago, but showing why it isn’t obviously out…
(https://i.ibb.co/gbwvWyV9/IMG-2720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gbwvWyV9)
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19 seconds is the longest VAR has ever gone back to disallow a goal apparently. An attack that started the opposite end of the pitch too. Another terrible decision.
Well I never.....
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Wonder when we’ll get the apology?
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That’s three games we’ve lost that have hinged on poor refereeing decisions, including Everton and Arsenal.
It’d be easier to take if decisions were going both ways and we were benefiting too - you win some, you lose some.
We just lose some.
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19 seconds is the longest VAR has ever gone back to disallow a goal apparently. An attack that started the opposite end of the pitch too. Another terrible decision.
What was ours today?
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19 seconds is the longest VAR has ever gone back to disallow a goal apparently. An attack that started the opposite end of the pitch too. Another terrible decision.
What was ours today?
I thinks that is ours from today.
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19 seconds is the longest VAR has ever gone back to disallow a goal apparently. An attack that started the opposite end of the pitch too. Another terrible decision.
What was ours today?
Ah ok thanks. I wonder what the previous record was
I thinks that is ours from today.
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Horrendous, just how far can you go back with a delayed decision, you have to look at the principle of that decision if you can go back to when the ball was in there half seconds/minutes earlier, where do you stop.
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That was a ridiculous incident today. I do think the ball was out, but that was a mistake which could happen anytime, similar to when a team scores from a corner which shouldn’t have been. I can’t quite understand how they will explain their way out of this one.
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It will be another apology at best.
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Did we ever get an apology for the end of season screw up at Man Utd last season?
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I don't think they'll even bother. They said it was factually out of play, Emery disagreed but accepted it, everyone will move on. We're too nice.
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We're too nice.
Exactly this. We don’t kick up a fuss enough.
Not that it would make any difference.
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We were screwed over today. I am so angered by today's decision.
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I get it if the fact the ball goes out actually influenced the goal - like a cross that went out, or a player dribbling past another by taking it out and then scoring - but it had no impact on the actual goal - we didnt gain any form of advantage from it.
You can’t really get more of an advantage than going up the other end and scoring a goal. We kept it in play that allowed us to do that.
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Just home. Floods in Wales. Long detour which didn't improve the mood. I listened to a couple of Villa pods and they said it was 19 secs from Bailey to the goal being scored. That is plenty of time for a team to 'reset' which seems to be the rule. Bloody frustrating and we seem to be on the wrong side of crucial decisions each game, only to be told the next week that the ref got it wrong.
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How many times are we going to get done by PGMOL before we do something about it, they do not have conclusive proof the ball was out because there is no camera position to corroborate their decision.
Add to that , the fact that they have exceeded the VAR mandate.
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The important bit is that the linesman (asst ref) on the Witton Lane side was in the other half of the pitch and would not have been able to see whether the ball was in or out anyway, so it was always on the ref to call it; which he didn't. Being half a yard from the corner flag would suggest it was not the start of an attacking phase...
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Literally the longest VAR has ever gone back. And then for a decision, which is a total guess.
Fuck off. Just fuck right off.
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Apparently VAR is not to re-referee the game.
So what the fuck was that?
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It’s either corrupt or massive incompetence- neither is acceptable with millions at stake.
It goes down for me as a massive fuck up that will be covered up or brushed under the table.
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It’s either corrupt or massive incompetence- neither is acceptable with millions at stake.
It goes down for me as a massive fuck up that will be covered up or brushed under the table.
They are an unaccountable organisation which is answerable to no-one. Their real purpose is to thrive and protect their revenue and stakeholders. This is a far cry from what the purpose of a sports refereeing body should be about.
PGMOL should be fired from adjudicating, they are quite obviously not fit for purpose and there is more than a slight whiff of corruption.
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I need to start thinking about something else now, this has proper wound me up.
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How many times are we going to get done by PGMOL before we do something about it, they do not have conclusive proof the ball was out because there is no camera position to corroborate their decision.
Add to that , the fact that they have exceeded the VAR mandate.
Is the audio of the discussion between the officials available anywhere? I'd be interested to hear exactly what the VAR official said to the referee. Bearing in mind there has to be evidence of a 'clear and obvious' mistake for the decision to be overturned and I can't see how the VAR official can justify his decision that one had been made. When it then becomes clear that he is actually making a subjective decision to overturn the on field one, then surely the ref has to go to the screen?
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It’s either corrupt or massive incompetence- neither is acceptable with millions at stake.
It goes down for me as a massive fuck up that will be covered up or brushed under the table.
They are an unaccountable organisation which is answerable to no-one. Their real purpose is to thrive and protect their revenue and stakeholders. This is a far cry from what the purpose of a sports refereeing body should be about.
PGMOL should be fired from adjudicating, they are quite obviously not fit for purpose and there is more than a slight whiff of corruption.
This is it for me. It happens every week and the next week you see the same incompetent morons back out on the pitch and they piss themselves all over again. There is no accountability and are no consequences to repeatedly getting it wrong. It is shambolic and disgraceful.
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There should be complete transparency if the organisation is marking its own homework.
The audio for decisions like yesterdays should be available for all of us to hear.
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They will fall back on the correct outcome was achieved in this instance so there should be no argument. 4 minutes that it took for someone to decide it looked out. So at what point of looking at it for 4 minutes did he or they decide it was out when they couldn’t be 100% sure? Utterly pathetic.
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Didn’t they eventually release the audio of the VR cock-up in the Spurs v Liverpool game?
I think one of the clubs insisted on it being released
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Just wish unai would call these decisions out more. We just seem to accept it and they continue to fuck us over like OT last season
If these were going against klopp fergie or wenger you would never hear end of it
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I assume we'll be given the pictures that provided the VAR team with the evidence to determine the ball was "factually" out of play later today, but I'm not holding my breath. Even if it is out of play I think it's stretching it to say it was the same phase of play.
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I assume we'll be given the pictures that provided the VAR team with the evidence to determine the ball was "factually" out of play later today, but I'm not holding my breath. Even if it is out of play I think it's stretching it to say it was the same phase of play.
That's what I'm waiting for too. Like many, I think it probably WAS out, but that's not enough. This is a factual decision, and they say it was factually "out", so I want to see the evidence they based that one. It sure as hell better be more than the footage we all saw, which cannot - to the millimetre - show it as definitively out.
Remember when Gary Neville showed everyone how this ball was in, despite the angle? I don't see how this incident isn't the same.
If you're not looking at it from the top down, how can you be 100% certain that 100% of the ball has crossed 100% of the line? Again, I get how you can be pretty sure, but that is NOT what VAR is for in this instance - it has to be 100% sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/ynyDwxjv/gnev2-explains-different-angles-ball-857735321-1.webp) (https://ibb.co/ynyDwxjv)
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If it is clearly shown that it was factually out of play with an angle we haven't seen, even though it will be the longest VAR pull back ever, I can just about accept it. Even though we know it wouldn't have happened to certain other teams.
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There's the Newcastle one, with a much better camera angle than ours, with nobody in the way, which stood because there was no conclusive proof that the ball had fully crossed the line.
I don't know how to post a picture but if you Google it you'll see it, if you can't recall.
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If it is clearly shown that it was factually out of play with an angle we haven't seen, even though it will be the longest VAR pull back ever, I can just about accept it. Even though we know it wouldn't have happened to certain other teams.
Even if there were incontrovertible proof of the ball being out, there is still the question of when an attacking phase commences ...
The important bit is that the linesman (asst ref) on the Witton Lane side was in the other half of the pitch and would not have been able to see whether the ball was in or out, so it was always on the ref to call it; which he didn't. Being half a yard from the corner flag would suggest that Bailey keeping the ball in could not have been the start of an attacking phase...
... the example above, from the Barcode-Arse game of last season, shows how a ball can appear to be off but the camera cannot possibly capture the 'overhang' of the ball onto the line (a bit like when the corner ball sometimes looks outside the quadrant but isn't, according to the linesmen who check them).
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I think it's this one against Arsenal.
(https://images.ladbible.com/resize?type=webp&quality=70&width=3840&fit=contain&gravity=auto&url=https://images.ladbiblegroup.com/v3/assets/blta90d05ad41a54a71/bltcbe70b36e7129b70/65469c163454d9040aebbdf2/prem-var.jpeg)
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I think it's this one against Arsenal.
(https://images.ladbible.com/resize?type=webp&quality=70&width=3840&fit=contain&gravity=auto&url=https://images.ladbiblegroup.com/v3/assets/blta90d05ad41a54a71/bltcbe70b36e7129b70/65469c163454d9040aebbdf2/prem-var.jpeg)
Does anyone remember was this one pulled back ir did it go straight to var?
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Even if there were incontrovertible proof of the ball being out, there is still the question of when an attacking phase commences ...
My question as well. Does an opposition player need to contact it? Well why was our goal disallowed last year when the offside/foul occurred, the defender won the ball but then failed to clear it and we attacked again and scored?
Does the ball have to go back away from the area. Well this one was at the corner flag in our half, how far enough away does it need to go? With our Wolves goal, there was a potential foul on Gomez which meant he didn't get back in time. Wolves didn't have the ball between that incident and our goal. At what point was that a different phase of play? Did they look at it or did they state it was too far back?
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I think we can now safely assume that VAR is happy to guess and give a subjective opinion of what they "think might of happened" Clearly that leaves the whole VAR system in an untenable position. This can't be allowed to continue. Brentford fans are currently laughing at it, understandable I guess but there's no bigger whingers than them and their turn will come.
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I assume we'll be given the pictures that provided the VAR team with the evidence to determine the ball was "factually" out of play later today, but I'm not holding my breath. Even if it is out of play I think it's stretching it to say it was the same phase of play.
That's what I'm waiting for too. Like many, I think it probably WAS out, but that's not enough. This is a factual decision, and they say it was factually "out", so I want to see the evidence they based that one. It sure as hell better be more than the footage we all saw, which cannot - to the millimetre - show it as definitively out.
Remember when Gary Neville showed everyone how this ball was in, despite the angle? I don't see how this incident isn't the same.
If you're not looking at it from the top down, how can you be 100% certain that 100% of the ball has crossed 100% of the line? Again, I get how you can be pretty sure, but that is NOT what VAR is for in this instance - it has to be 100% sure.
(https://i.ibb.co/ynyDwxjv/gnev2-explains-different-angles-ball-857735321-1.webp) (https://ibb.co/ynyDwxjv)
The colour and patterns on the ball make it even more difficult to distinguish with the naked eye.
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All this referee talk reminds me of the Inside number 9 episode 'The referees a......'
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I think it's this one against Arsenal.
(https://images.ladbible.com/resize?type=webp&quality=70&width=3840&fit=contain&gravity=auto&url=https://images.ladbiblegroup.com/v3/assets/blta90d05ad41a54a71/bltcbe70b36e7129b70/65469c163454d9040aebbdf2/prem-var.jpeg)
Does anyone remember was this one pulled back ir did it go straight to var?
That is the VAR box being freeze framed. VAR stated that they couldn't honestly state the whole ball was out from that angle, or that they couldn't honestly confirm if a handball happened or that they couldn't state that the scoring player was offside or not who bundled it over the line.
All of those checks took 3 minutes from start to finish, the over-the-line took less then 30 seconds to dismiss. Ours took almost 3.5 minutes to decide it was over the line I believe.
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Whether the ball went out or not isn't the issue. There are no parameters regarding how far a check can go back, where phases of play start or finish so in effect the officials have an open book on disallowing goals and we have to attend games not knowing how this is going to be interpreted.
As we constantly see with VAR, in order to protect themselves the officials come up with more bizarre excuses every week, the 5cm rule was one and they will come up with another for this you can guarantee. It may or may not have had an effect on the game and is already more or less forgotten by everyone but us. I've never seen something like that before and you can bet we'll never see it again.
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I think it's this one against Arsenal.
(https://images.ladbible.com/resize?type=webp&quality=70&width=3840&fit=contain&gravity=auto&url=https://images.ladbiblegroup.com/v3/assets/blta90d05ad41a54a71/bltcbe70b36e7129b70/65469c163454d9040aebbdf2/prem-var.jpeg)
Does anyone remember was this one pulled back ir did it go straight to var?
That is the VAR box being freeze framed. VAR stated that they couldn't honestly state the whole ball was out from that angle, or that they couldn't honestly confirm if a handball happened or that they couldn't state that the scoring player was offside or not who bundled it over the line.
All of those checks took 3 minutes from start to finish, the over-the-line took less then 30 seconds to dismiss. Ours took almost 3.5 minutes to decide it was over the line I believe.
Thanks thats helpful.
It does seem very odd and inconsistent- as this one is less blatent than that ine that they dismissed
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Between this and the Everton goalscorer being the guy who should've been sent off, not to mention the injuries, it's clear our last two home games were sweated under curses and maledictions. Hopefully it's al been lifted now.
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It seems that the primary purpose of VAR is to find a reason why a goal cannot be awarded.
But the biggest issue is the spurious reasons why it’s wrong decisions are subsequently defended.
1. There is a 5cm tolerance
2. It was in the build up to an attaching phase of play.
3. You can’t be offside with a part of the body you can’t score with.
4. You CAN be offside with a part of the body you can’t score with
5. You can’t be offside if you are running back from an offside position.
6. You ARE offside if you are running back from an offside position.
And many others, I’m sure.
No one seems to know the rules of the game, it is far, far too convoluted.
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VAR has led to, and will continue to produce, weak officiating on the pitch. It's clear that VAR doesn't help, it hinders. We may hate the decision given on the pitch and want to bitch about it for the next week, but it was a flash movement in the heat of the moment and that's about as fair as you're going to get. Having a safety net leads to doubt, which leads to trying to cover your arse.
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All of those checks took 3 minutes from start to finish, the over-the-line took less then 30 seconds to dismiss. Ours took almost 3.5 minutes to decide it was over the line I believe.
They couldn't honestly determine whether the ball was out! Given that the linesman (asst ref) on the Witton Lane side was in the other half of the pitch and would not have been able to see whether the ball was in or out, it was always on the ref to call it; which he didn't. The VAR cameras at Villa Park did not decisively show, one way or another, whether the whole of the ball was over the line.
In the example from the Barcode-Arse game, the VAR / ref rightly ignored the ambiguity because it could not be proven by the VAR cameras.
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VAR has led to, and will continue to produce, weak officiating on the pitch. It's clear that VAR doesn't help, it hinders. We may hate the decision given on the pitch and want to bitch about it for the next week, but it was a flash movement in the heat of the moment and that's about as fair as you're going to get. Having a safety net leads to doubt, which leads to trying to cover your arse.
I agree that refs have become weaker o the pitch where VAR is present. Compare the reffing during the FAC3 games: refs appeared to be more decisive and made quick decisions that players generally did not challenge.
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I think we can now safely assume that VAR is happy to guess and give a subjective opinion of what they "think might of happened" Clearly that leaves the whole VAR system in an untenable position. This can't be allowed to continue. Brentford fans are currently laughing at it, understandable I guess but there's no bigger whingers than them and their turn will come.
To be fair, I don't think it's the VAR system that is the problem, it's the people using it. I follow cricket and and there can sometimes be doubt around whether a clean catch is taken. When the umpires in the middle refer it to the TV umpire, they often do so with a 'soft signal' of out or not out. The TV umpire then has to find clear evidence of that not being the case and if they can't, they simply tell the on field umpire to stick with their original decision. It really is that simple.
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VAR has led to, and will continue to produce, weak officiating on the pitch. It's clear that VAR doesn't help, it hinders. We may hate the decision given on the pitch and want to bitch about it for the next week, but it was a flash movement in the heat of the moment and that's about as fair as you're going to get. Having a safety net leads to doubt, which leads to trying to cover your arse.
I agree that refs have become weaker o the pitch where VAR is present. Compare the reffing during the FAC3 games: refs appeared to be more decisive and made quick decisions that players generally did not challenge.
I thought the ref was really weak yesterday. Yes he gave them.a red card, but he let them get away with so much.
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I think we can now safely assume that VAR is happy to guess and give a subjective opinion of what they "think might of happened" Clearly that leaves the whole VAR system in an untenable position. This can't be allowed to continue. Brentford fans are currently laughing at it, understandable I guess but there's no bigger whingers than them and their turn will come.
To be fair, I don't think it's the VAR system that is the problem, it's the people using it. I follow cricket and and there can sometimes be doubt around whether a clean catch is taken. When the umpires in the middle refer it to the TV umpire, they often do so with a 'soft signal' of out or not out. The TV umpire then has to find clear evidence of that not being the case and if they can't, they simply tell the on field umpire to stick with their original decision. It really is that simple.
Yes this is the issue - football is using it in completely the wrong way to remake subjective calls with other subjective calls.
Yesterday was like giving it not out because the previous ball was a no-ball.
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I fucking hate all this video shit.
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Are we entitled to see the evidence upon which the decision was based and hear a recording of any discussion leading to that decision?It really is time we started to kick up a fuss given some of the crap decisions which have gone against us.
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I think we can now safely assume that VAR is happy to guess and give a subjective opinion of what they "think might of happened" Clearly that leaves the whole VAR system in an untenable position. This can't be allowed to continue. Brentford fans are currently laughing at it, understandable I guess but there's no bigger whingers than them and their turn will come.
To be fair, I don't think it's the VAR system that is the problem, it's the people using it. I follow cricket and and there can sometimes be doubt around whether a clean catch is taken. When the umpires in the middle refer it to the TV umpire, they often do so with a 'soft signal' of out or not out. The TV umpire then has to find clear evidence of that not being the case and if they can't, they simply tell the on field umpire to stick with their original decision. It really is that simple.
Same in rugby, the ref chooses how to ask the question which guides the Video assistant "on filed decision is xx, do you have any evidence for me to overturn that?" and all the audio is shared live. I get the argument that people in the ground might not know as much as those watching on TV but at least there's a recorded conversation available immediately for anyone who wants to check it and there's clear guidance from the on-field officials. Football has this really poorly implemented and really poorly used in a way that encourages more obscurity and less oversight as they often use it as a means of circling thge wagons to protect themselves rather than to get the right decision.
Yesterdays decision was awful not because of how far they went back (even though that was also bullshit) but because it was a subjective decision made by someone other than the referee, which isn't supposed to happen. Unless there's a camera angle that shows it was 100% irrefutably out of play what they've done doesn't meet the criteria for VAR to overrule the decision.
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We may as well just demolish all the grounds and sell the land for housing and play the games on computers. Virtually every paying spectator in the country loathes VAR and wishes ill on it. At no time in the history of the game has the officiating of the game been under such scrutiny, criticism and pressure and yet, with all the technology available to it, the criticism is louder than ever before - how the hell is that happening?? It just shows how badly it is being used. The people running or should that be ruining the game just aren't listening to the fans. But then again, why would they?? They treat us like shit and the grounds are still full every week. Officially the most expensive ticket prices in the World. Shit kick off times just to please the TV package lot. VAR being rammed down our throats even though it's utter cack - fuck this for a game of soldiers.
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I know we've had at least two (if not three) instances where the refs have come out after the game to admit someone should've been sent off against us, Wolves and Everton if I'm not mistaken? Is that normal? Do most clubs average two or three 'soz that was shite' statements per season?
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The worst part is that you know that if we actually make a complaint the internet will just be full of "but you'd have been relegated if that Sheffield Utd goal had stood" as if 1 big controversy in our favour since we got back in the league outweighs the repeated mistakes that have gone against us for the last few years.
After the last month I'm now firmly at the point of wanting the club to make a huge fucking deal of it all, full on package of all the mistakes against us in the last couple of years and what they've cost us in terms of points, alongside an estimation of the financial implications. Just fucking hammer home how fucking shit it's been and how many things have been given against us in a short space of time.
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Refereeing and var in the PL, is (and has been for some time) not fit for purpose.
It's the means through which, teams like Villa can be disadvantaged in plain sight, whilst simultaneously benefitting the sky branded teams.
Unless something fundamentally changes in the officiating of our PL games, we'll be chatting about the same incompetencies time and time again.
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VAR has saved us more then enough times for me to be overly pissed off about it's implementation.
Our high line only works/worked if VAR is there to protect it. That first season with Emery in particular was one where we where often catching teams offside after a goal, with linesman regularly not sharp enough.
Not saying it's perfect, nor entirely for for purpose, but people regularly forget the favors it's done us the past 3 years.
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VAR has done us favours?
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As I see it the ball was out, it seemed pretty conclusive from the TV pictures.
However was it a clear and obvious error by the officials on the pitch? NO
Was it in the attacking half of the pitch for Villa? NO
Did we gain and advantage from it? YES but did the opposition have enough time to re-set for the next phase of play? YES.
Is VAR going to referee the whole match now? It looks like YES
Is this the purpose VAR was introduced? NO
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The rule will be altered and have a time limit put on it or something and we end up losing out again to the VAR farce.
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VAR has saved us more then enough times for me to be overly pissed off about it's implementation.
Our high line only works/worked if VAR is there to protect it. That first season with Emery in particular was one where we where often catching teams offside after a goal, with linesman regularly not sharp enough.
Not saying it's perfect, nor entirely for for purpose, but people regularly forget the favors it's done us the past 3 years.
How is showing an attacking player correctly offside doing us a favour? We have technology that shows it as such. We don’t yet have technology that shows if a ball has cleared the touch line and as such those on VAR duty are guessing.
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For offsides most of the ones where the flag hasn't gone up and we've been 'saved' by VAR were actually pretty obvious and would've bene ruled out by the linesman in most cases if they didn't have the safety net. Of the actual tight calls I'd say we've had as many of ours ruled out as we've had in favour over the last few years. Ollie alone is probably 5-6 goals less than he could've been but for very tight offside calls.
I don't have many issues with VAR for offside. Some of the really tight calls seem unnecessary and the 5cm thing was utter bullshit but generally these do balance out.
My problem with officiating in general is that it's inconsistent. Take yesterday for example, not one of their players got booked for timewasting despite a few 45-50 seconds breaks to take free kicks/goal kicks. On the other hand we seem to have someone booked as standard if we're leading with a few minutes left and we don't get the ball back in play immediately. It's only a tiny thing but it's frustrating watching Kelleher take forever to trudge across to take a free kick knowing that Emi would 100% have been booked for taking the piss that much.
Also yesterday it seemed to be another game where a 2handed push in the back was a foul by a Villa player but not by a Brentford player, just like it was against Everton. I don't like moaning about how unfair it is and how bad refs are but when you have them admitting that Garner should've been a foul and a yellow card it does reinforce the thinking that we've been fucked over a few too many times in the last 12 months or so.
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The difference between cricket third umpires and VAR officials is that one is a highly intelligent former player who can make a decision rationally. The others are overgrown egotistical schoolboys wanting to get in on the act just because they can.
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Brentford have put a video on their X account which looks to show the ball going out.
https://x.com/i/status/2018323178469101994
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The ball was almost certainly out, the issues are how they came to the conclusion that it was definitely out based on the footage they had in game. And are they right to go that far back.
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Brentford have put a video on their X account which looks to show the ball going out.
https://x.com/i/status/2018323178469101994
AI
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Going back that far is ludicrous. And it certainly didn't influence the attacking phase of play. Because if that's what they are going to do then goals never get scored because the camera could always catch something some that gets missed by the refs. It's not why we lost the game. Against 10 men for most of the game we have to win that or certainly not lose. But like the two second yellows; Arsenal and Everton those are big decisions that the refs have to get right. It's incompetence that they missed those which were blatant and yet they take forever to find the ball being out when no way based on thr footage they had they could see it clearly.
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Brentford have put a video on their X account which looks to show the ball going out.
https://x.com/i/status/2018323178469101994
Well done. They found a camera angle to be factual. Not one used by VAR though so how they could be certain to be "factual" is a question when they couldn't for others.
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They got to the right decision for all the wrong reasons.
We had a pretty good view from our seats it looked well out of play. Looking at the highlight a couple of Brentford players paused which allowed us to break out of the corner more easily than we otherwise might have. It might have been 19 seconds until we scored, but it was all part of the same counter attacking move.
Having said that, the VAR process is a joke. There are no clear rules, no openness to the advice being given to on field ref, no accountability and I have no doubt that had it been Liverpool, Arsenal, etc the goal would have been given.
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I think we can now safely assume that VAR is happy to guess and give a subjective opinion of what they "think might of happened" Clearly that leaves the whole VAR system in an untenable position. This can't be allowed to continue. Brentford fans are currently laughing at it, understandable I guess but there's no bigger whingers than them and their turn will come.
To be fair, I don't think it's the VAR system that is the problem, it's the people using it. I follow cricket and and there can sometimes be doubt around whether a clean catch is taken. When the umpires in the middle refer it to the TV umpire, they often do so with a 'soft signal' of out or not out. The TV umpire then has to find clear evidence of that not being the case and if they can't, they simply tell the on field umpire to stick with their original decision. It really is that simple.
Same in rugby, the ref chooses how to ask the question which guides the Video assistant "on filed decision is xx, do you have any evidence for me to overturn that?" and all the audio is shared live. I get the argument that people in the ground might not know as much as those watching on TV but at least there's a recorded conversation available immediately for anyone who wants to check it and there's clear guidance from the on-field officials. Football has this really poorly implemented and really poorly used in a way that encourages more obscurity and less oversight as they often use it as a means of circling thge wagons to protect themselves rather than to get the right decision.
Yesterdays decision was awful not because of how far they went back (even though that was also bullshit) but because it was a subjective decision made by someone other than the referee, which isn't supposed to happen. Unless there's a camera angle that shows it was 100% irrefutably out of play what they've done doesn't meet the criteria for VAR to overrule the decision.
I think the most nauseating thing yesterday was the wording of the on field referee when he gave his explanation on the mic. He called it "factually out" when clearly it can not be called factual because there's no proof of the ball being out. Why would he use those words when they know the literally can't prove it.
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So given that VAR are now able to "factually" prove if the ball is in or out of play conclusively from now on. We should fully expect the Hawk Eye goal line technology to be scrapped.
No, didn't think so. Useless pricks.
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As I see it the ball was out, it seemed pretty conclusive from the TV pictures.
However was it a clear and obvious error by the officials on the pitch? NO
Was it in the attacking half of the pitch for Villa? NO
Did we gain and advantage from it? YES but did the opposition have enough time to re-set for the next phase of play? YES.
Is VAR going to referee the whole match now? It looks like YES
Is this the purpose VAR was introduced? NO
The ball was pout the officials called it in that's a clear and obvious error
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It may or may not have had an effect on the game and is already more or less forgotten by everyone but us. I've never seen something like that before and you can bet we'll never see it again.
Am I going mad or did we have a near carbon copy situation last year?
Ollie (almost) saving the ball from going out, McGinn firing the ball into the back of the net.
The goal was ruled out, but at the time we were up in arms at the VAR over reach.
Think we lost or drew!
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I think we can now safely assume that VAR is happy to guess and give a subjective opinion of what they "think might of happened" Clearly that leaves the whole VAR system in an untenable position. This can't be allowed to continue. Brentford fans are currently laughing at it, understandable I guess but there's no bigger whingers than them and their turn will come.
To be fair, I don't think it's the VAR system that is the problem, it's the people using it. I follow cricket and and there can sometimes be doubt around whether a clean catch is taken. When the umpires in the middle refer it to the TV umpire, they often do so with a 'soft signal' of out or not out. The TV umpire then has to find clear evidence of that not being the case and if they can't, they simply tell the on field umpire to stick with their original decision. It really is that simple.
Same in rugby, the ref chooses how to ask the question which guides the Video assistant "on filed decision is xx, do you have any evidence for me to overturn that?" and all the audio is shared live. I get the argument that people in the ground might not know as much as those watching on TV but at least there's a recorded conversation available immediately for anyone who wants to check it and there's clear guidance from the on-field officials. Football has this really poorly implemented and really poorly used in a way that encourages more obscurity and less oversight as they often use it as a means of circling thge wagons to protect themselves rather than to get the right decision.
Yesterdays decision was awful not because of how far they went back (even though that was also bullshit) but because it was a subjective decision made by someone other than the referee, which isn't supposed to happen. Unless there's a camera angle that shows it was 100% irrefutably out of play what they've done doesn't meet the criteria for VAR to overrule the decision.
That last paragraph is spot on Paul. I still maintain that given as it was a subjective decision to rule out a goal, the referee should have been asked to go to the screen to look at it. As you say though, the VAR official has taken it on himself to overrule an on-field decision when he hasn't got the technology to be 100% sure.
Even when they tried to explain it they got it wrong - the referee said it was 'factually' out whatever that means, but there was no fact about it and then the message that flashed up 10 minutes later said it had taken place in an 'attacking phase of play'. I'd hardly call being in a dogfight facing your own goal in the corner between the touchline and your own goaline an 'attacking phase of play'.
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I think the most nauseating thing yesterday was the wording of the on field referee when he gave his explanation on the mic. He called it "factually out" when clearly it can not be called factual because there's no proof of the ball being out. Why would he use those words when they know the literally can't prove it.
VAR told him it was out so for him, the man in the middle it was "factually out" (ie not something the ref would normally go to a screen to check). Of course from their pictures it was more "subjectively out" although further footage since has shown it was factually out.
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VAR told him it was out so for him, the man in the middle it was "factually out" (ie not something the ref would normally go to a screen to check). Of course from their pictures it was more "subjectively out" although further footage since has shown it was factually out.
Where is this footage? I've not seen it.
Edit - found one. Now get PGMOL to draw the lines on it.
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It may or may not have had an effect on the game and is already more or less forgotten by everyone but us. I've never seen something like that before and you can bet we'll never see it again.
Am I going mad or did we have a near carbon copy situation last year?
Ollie (almost) saving the ball from going out, McGinn firing the ball into the back of the net.
The goal was ruled out, but at the time we were up in arms at the VAR over reach.
Think we lost or drew!
We drew against Bournemouth away. Similar with the other one of VAR showing an image of "there you are" when there was weird digital artifacts at the line and around the ball which couldn't guranetee a full definitely over the line. Although I would have accepted Sunday's decision if they had an angle like that to show. (Not on how far back they went though).
(https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/image-1ecd.png?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=480%2C328)
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VAR should be run by neck-bearded computer geeks who hate football but have an unshakeable belief in getting things perfect.
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Just for good measure can I throw this into the mix?
Limits: While there is no specific time limit, the review is limited to the immediate phase of play. If a new phase of play starts (e.g., the defending team clears the ball and establishes control), any previous offence is "written off".
I would suggest that when Kellener parried the ball, Brentford had effectively cleared the ball and therefore a new phase had started and the previous “offence” should have been written off
Although It could probably be argued that although he parried it they did not establish control because it went straight to Tammy
All very subjective - as was the original decision
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VAR should be run by neck-bearded computer geeks who hate football but have an unshakeable belief in getting things perfect.
That sounds like my son!
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Brentford have put a video on their X account which looks to show the ball going out.
https://x.com/i/status/2018323178469101994
Well done. They found a camera angle to be factual. Not one used by VAR though so how they could be certain to be "factual" is a question when they couldn't for others.
There's plenty of doctored images doing the rounds. Brentford or Small Heath fans to blame I guess. It's done now so no point getting lathered up about it. Hopefully it's our turn to get a couple of debatable things going out way courtesy of those lovely fair minded chaps who run VAR.
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It was so far out of play it was in the queue for a beer.
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Brentford have put a video on their X account which looks to show the ball going out.
https://x.com/i/status/2018323178469101994
Well done. They found a camera angle to be factual. Not one used by VAR though so how they could be certain to be "factual" is a question when they couldn't for others.
There's plenty of doctored images doing the rounds. Brentford or Small Heath fans to blame I guess. It's done now so no point getting lathered up about it. Hopefully it's our turn to get a couple of debatable things going out way courtesy of those lovely fair minded chaps who run VAR.
That won't happen though.
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Even though the new angles have shown it wss out by some distance i bet if yhat was manure goal would have been given
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Just for good measure can I throw this into the mix?
Limits: While there is no specific time limit, the review is limited to the immediate phase of play. If a new phase of play starts (e.g., the defending team clears the ball and establishes control), any previous offence is "written off".
I would suggest that when Kellener parried the ball, Brentford had effectively cleared the ball and therefore a new phase had started and the previous “offence” should have been written off
Although It could probably be argued that although he parried it they did not establish control because it went straight to Tammy
All very subjective - as was the original decision
Can remember the Bailey one that got ruled out a couple of years ago against Sheffield United for a supposed foul on tje keeper from a corner. The ball broke and Sheffield United had possession on the edge of their box, gave it away, we scored and the goal was ruled out for a questionable foul on the keeper.
We'd have been top at Christmas if we'd have won that.
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Even though the new angles have shown it wss out by some distance i bet if yhat was manure goal would have been given
. New angles are totally irrelevant, all that matters is what the VAR saw…if they had an angle proving it fine, if they had an angle where they guessed it was out then answers are required
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Even though the new angles have shown it wss out by some distance i bet if yhat was manure goal would have been given
100% it would've been given.
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I haven’t seen these new angles but am pretty sure that, after the game, they don’t count for shit as they can be manipulated to justify the piss poor decision making from the PGMOL. It was a total guess on the day. They are screwing up far too many times as far as Villa are concerned. No conspiracy theory, but just get it right.
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It looked miles out to me and doesn’t this just really highlight the uselessness of the officials letting play go on in the first place and then the uselessness of the team running VAR to intervene when that’s not really their duty. Otherwise it’s contradicts too many other missed things that happen dozens of times in a match. The most clear one it never gets involved with is when the corner or throw-in is given the wrong way and a goal is scored.
It’s just a mess.
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It looked miles out to me and doesn’t this just really highlight the uselessness of the officials letting play go on in the first place and then the uselessness of the team running VAR to intervene when that’s not really their duty. Otherwise it’s contradicts too many other missed things that happen dozens of times in a match. The most clear one it never gets involved with is when the corner or throw-in is given the wrong way and a goal is scored.
It’s just a mess.
I don't blame the ref in that situation. Lino was on the wrong side of the pitch, other end of the line so it was only the ref who might have judged it but Bailey and the Brentford defender was blocking his view. If the ref had gone closer he might have interfered with play (accidently blocked a player or ball) so I'm fine with him guessing it hadn't and not relying solely on the oppositions players claims.
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Even though the new angles have shown it wss out by some distance i bet if yhat was manure goal would have been given
100% it would've been given.
Then it would become 'inconclusive'.
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The salient points that you need to be sure to give it and from his angle the ref wasn’t sure. He made the best decision. VAR is their to opine on clear and obvious errors and only when it is a n an attacking phase leading to a goal. Neither applied here so the VAR intervention was incorrect.
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https://x.com/SkySportsNews/status/2018621557686304936
This is an absolute joke and got me angry again. You cant use a fans fucking instagram video as evidence it was out
It was not clearly out - there is no way they can say that as all the past examples have shown. Secondly - its a fucking throw in. If you cant referee whether a corner was a corner or goal kick, you cant re-referee a throw in.
What makes me more angry is the standard of Journalism. Press him on the fact it makes zero sense, and use the numerous examples where it has been aruged the other way. And press to show the evidence that shows it is 100% out. Explain how the rules are cotridicatory and clearly not fit for purpose.
The games bent, and referees and most journalists are sycophants stealing livings.
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My brother's just bought a new car that's so packed full of "helpful" computerised nonsense it's amazing he can get five miles without having to recharge the fucker. I'm still turning off apps and bloatware on my new phone.
VAR is another example of tech being used for the sake of it. It's absolutely ridiculous to apply it to every situation and spending so long over borderline decisions which used to even out over a season is ruining the game.
The only way to make it work is to make the wankers operating it decide within a set time (Say 30 seconds) or the referee's original on-field decision stands...
The ball was out, though.
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Is "same phase of play" a new one they have brought in to justify VAR getting involved? Two cracking passes from Luiz and Buendia to put Sancho clear down the left.
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It looked miles out to me and doesn’t this just really highlight the uselessness of the officials letting play go on in the first place and then the uselessness of the team running VAR to intervene when that’s not really their duty. Otherwise it’s contradicts too many other missed things that happen dozens of times in a match. The most clear one it never gets involved with is when the corner or throw-in is given the wrong way and a goal is scored.
It’s just a mess.
Absolutely!
Another highlight is when the attacking player is clearly offside, the goalkeeper saves the shot but it goes for a corner and the attacking team then score from it - goal given! If the goalkeeper hadn't saved the shot it would have been disallowed for offside!
Utter bonkers the whole bloody thing!
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Is it worth a poll to see whether VAR should ne scrapped?
I'm done with it. A significant number of referee's decisions are subjective, and I think I'd prefer the human error from a bloke on the pitch rather than the pretend science of VAR, it'll still be subjective.
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It's panned out exactly how I thought it would when it was introduced, absolutely pointless Blues.
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Even though the new angles have shown it wss out by some distance i bet if yhat was manure goal would have been given
And Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City could be added to that list?
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Did VAR have access to these ‘new’ angles to allow them to get to their decision? I’m not disputing that the ball was out having seen the new angles I just want it confirmed that this evidence is what made VAR come to their decision. If they didn’t then there has to be some serious questions. However, given it took 4 minutes then I assume the incriminating views were provided in the 3rd 4th minute.
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Not seen any official definitive angle… and the 4 minutes would indicate an educated guess was made, which is against all VAR rules.
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Even though the new angles have shown it wss out by some distance i bet if yhat was manure goal would have been given
And Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City could be added to that list?
100% mate. I will also gurantee if that rogers goal went utds way at OT goal would have been given and then they would have "sorry our bad" meaningless apology that shafts us over.
Its the inconsistency and how var always favours the bigger sides
They really need to fucking just make a dule if a decision cant be made within 2 minutes goal is given end of make everyones life easier.
Taking 5 minutes to make a decision with no proper angle is ridiculous
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Did VAR have access to these ‘new’ angles to allow them to get to their decision? I’m not disputing that the ball was out having seen the new angles I just want it confirmed that this evidence is what made VAR come to their decision. If they didn’t then there has to be some serious questions. However, given it took 4 minutes then I assume the incriminating views were provided in the 3rd 4th minute.
Nope, the only footage that is conclusive is filmed by a fan in the corner looking along the line, that clearly wouldn't be available to them. That's what my real issue is with this, unless they can say they had 100% certainty that the ball was out during that 4minute check then the rules as they exist don't allow for them to reverse the decision without sending the ref to the monitor. It's arguing a technicality but it is an important one because if that rule is no longer being followed it should be common knowledge not something that just slips in like this.
If VAR are now allowed to re-referee the game what other cases will come into it? Does this only apply if a goal is scored and, if so, would we have been better off if Kelleher had tipped it round the post instead of pushing it back to Tammy? Meaning instead of having to defend a throin we'd have had an attacking corner? How does that make sense?
Edited because I'm a moron who wrote would instead of wouldn't.
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Did VAR have access to these ‘new’ angles to allow them to get to their decision? I’m not disputing that the ball was out having seen the new angles I just want it confirmed that this evidence is what made VAR come to their decision. If they didn’t then there has to be some serious questions. However, given it took 4 minutes then I assume the incriminating views were provided in the 3rd 4th minute.
Nope, the only footage that is conclusive is filmed by a fan in the corner looking along the line, that clearly would be available to them. That's what my real issue is with this, unless they can say they had 100% certainty that the ball was out during that 4minute check then the rules as they exist don't allow for them to reverse the decision without sending the ref to the monitor. It's arguing a technicality but it is an important one because if that rule is no longer being followed it should be common knowledge not something that just slips in like this.
If VAR are now allowed to re-referee the game what other cases will come into it? Does this only apply if a goal is scored and, if so, would we have been better off if Kelleher had tipped it round the post instead of pushing it back to Tammy? Meaning instead of having to defend a throin we'd have had an attacking corner? How does that make sense?
That being the case then heads should roll. I can’t believe we’re so accepting of the decision given that the evidence they have used to come to that decision is inconclusive.
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In reality this is all now a total non-story. Villa haven’t complained, the media have moved on, just us on here still shaking our heads.
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In reality this is all now a total non-story. Villa haven’t complained, the media have moved on, just us on here still shaking our heads.
We haven't complained publicly, I'd hope we have at the very least asked for clarification in private.
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Did VAR have access to these ‘new’ angles to allow them to get to their decision? I’m not disputing that the ball was out having seen the new angles I just want it confirmed that this evidence is what made VAR come to their decision. If they didn’t then there has to be some serious questions. However, given it took 4 minutes then I assume the incriminating views were provided in the 3rd 4th minute.
Nope, the only footage that is conclusive is filmed by a fan in the corner looking along the line, that clearly wouldn't be available to them. That's what my real issue is with this, unless they can say they had 100% certainty that the ball was out during that 4minute check then the rules as they exist don't allow for them to reverse the decision without sending the ref to the monitor. It's arguing a technicality but it is an important one because if that rule is no longer being followed it should be common knowledge not something that just slips in like this.
If VAR are now allowed to re-referee the game what other cases will come into it? Does this only apply if a goal is scored and, if so, would we have been better off if Kelleher had tipped it round the post instead of pushing it back to Tammy? Meaning instead of having to defend a throin we'd have had an attacking corner? How does that make sense?
Edited because I'm a moron who wrote would instead of wouldn't.
Think you are spot on in your first paragraph Paul. The big issue in this is that the officials have not followed a proper, logical process and have instead made one up themselves. There should be clear processes in place around VAR interventions and get should be followed. Once they decided to check whether the ball gone out (which is a question in itself) it should have followed this process:
On-field ref: Can you check if the ball went out and I need to overturn my decision
VAR official: Will find best angle and you can go to screen and have a look
Conversation between pair at screen: Can't make a definitive decision from the best angle available, so no 'clear and obvious' error made and decision stands.
It would be interesting to hear the audio and see if the ref asked the VAR official to review or they just intervened.
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Did VAR have access to these ‘new’ angles to allow them to get to their decision? I’m not disputing that the ball was out having seen the new angles I just want it confirmed that this evidence is what made VAR come to their decision. If they didn’t then there has to be some serious questions. However, given it took 4 minutes then I assume the incriminating views were provided in the 3rd 4th minute.
Nope, the only footage that is conclusive is filmed by a fan in the corner looking along the line, that clearly wouldn't be available to them. That's what my real issue is with this, unless they can say they had 100% certainty that the ball was out during that 4minute check then the rules as they exist don't allow for them to reverse the decision without sending the ref to the monitor. It's arguing a technicality but it is an important one because if that rule is no longer being followed it should be common knowledge not something that just slips in like this.
If VAR are now allowed to re-referee the game what other cases will come into it? Does this only apply if a goal is scored and, if so, would we have been better off if Kelleher had tipped it round the post instead of pushing it back to Tammy? Meaning instead of having to defend a throin we'd have had an attacking corner? How does that make sense?
Edited because I'm a moron who wrote would instead of wouldn't.
Watch Utds first goal on Sunday.... totally re reffed
Ref blows for a penalty ( not free kick outside the area) var review & awards free kick for a shirt pull.
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It's about time we publicly called these decisions out, because until we do the decision will always go against us,if it's good enough for Pep it's good enough for us,I thought we stopped playing Mr nice guy
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It's about time we publicly called these decisions out, because until we do the decision will always go against us,if it's good enough for Pep it's good enough for us,I thought we stopped playing Mr nice guy
Agreed. I've passed the point where I don't expect the referee to have had a majority negative impact on our games that I'm close to giving up mentioning it. English refs, especially those with UEFA badges are shit, at least for us, they try to raise their game for the Sky 5+1 but are just less shit than normal. We've had better refs in Europe, the type you don't notice are my favourites.
The other factor is whose idea was it to change the rules in England to go from over protection, diving divas like Saka getting away with murder to the introduction of Rugby League rules where physicality and everything below the neck goes? Couldn't they have found something in the middle? In case they hadn't noticed and I doubt they have, it's fucking dangerous. Wankers.
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It is very dangerous. It’s odd as keepers always had a lot of protection and suddenly they are now expected to deal with elbows, tugs, pulls, pushing, players getting barged into them.
Sooner or later a keeper will come out with a fist and break someone’s jaw in the process as they have no chance of catching it anymore.
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Also players like our Rogers who run at speed or dance away from players have to try and manoeuvre away from a player while being held, or deal with a two handed shove in the back, as it seems ok now to do these things.
I presume all of these things are only allowed here in the UK?
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The commentator must have heard some dialogue as he knew what var had decided before it was announced.
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It’s another question for Mr Untouchable Webb…were the clubs briefed that the refs were all of a sudden just before Christmas going to let loads more go that were fouls in November…if they weee that’s ok but if not they are creating more danger particularly for the skilful players who can be clobbered with no sanction more and more.
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The commentator must have heard some dialogue as he knew what var had decided before it was announced.
That's what bothers me.
They clearly can hear what's been said by VAR , can VAR hear the commentary team, if so surely they are influenced by them .
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The commentators can hear VAR dialogue or are at least informed of what is being said by a producer. This isn't really new, they reference it often.
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The commentators can hear VAR dialogue or are at least informed of what is being said by a producer. This isn't really new, they reference it often.
Always winds me up surely the drama for the tv audience is better getting the verdict from the ref like the crowd rather than muppets like Drury or Matterface telling them before the ref gives call
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VAR isn’t going anywhere given the investments made in it. What will improve it and make sure clear and obvious is relevant is setting a time limit. Say 30-45 seconds. If with all the technology they cannot determine a significant error was made then the on field decision stands.
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And if VAR is now getting involved in throw ins then there’s no reason whatsoever that they shouldn’t be correcting second yellow cards that were given incorrectly or not given.
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VAR isn’t going anywhere given the investments made in it. What will improve it and make sure clear and obvious is relevant is setting a time limit. Say 30-45 seconds. If with all the technology they cannot determine a significant error was made then the on field decision stands.
Agree it’s not going anywhere but what will improve it is competence. Something that is sadly lacking presently.
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It is clearly evident that on Sunday the ref was not going to send thier player off as there was a significant delay between the incident and the card. More than enough time for a word in the refs ear to tell him it's a red. If he hears the instructions he follows them.
Just who is actually refing the game?
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Just watched the LC Semi, the amount of fouling that the ref lets go is just crazy. They have obviously decided that they will let everything go unless a player scythes down an opponent.
They have almost abdicated responsibility for reffing the game.
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If they are going to VAR throw ins then surely they have to VAR corners too? And do that preemptively to void wasting everyone’s time.
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If they are going to VAR throw ins then surely they have to VAR corners too? And do that preemptively to void wasting everyone’s time.
They are planning to do that. Games are going to take forever. It’s killing the spontaneity and natural joy that is much of what this game is about.
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It is clearly evident that on Sunday the ref was not going to send thier player off as there was a significant delay between the incident and the card. More than enough time for a word in the refs ear to tell him it's a red. If he hears the instructions he follows them.
Just who is actually refing the game?
Refs are.little more than mobile platforms for the technology
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Feels like VAR has never been about getting the correct decision, always about getting the right decision (to protect the cartel).
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Did VAR have access to these ‘new’ angles to allow them to get to their decision? I’m not disputing that the ball was out having seen the new angles I just want it confirmed that this evidence is what made VAR come to their decision. If they didn’t then there has to be some serious questions. However, given it took 4 minutes then I assume the incriminating views were provided in the 3rd 4th minute.
Nope, the only footage that is conclusive is filmed by a fan in the corner looking along the line, that clearly wouldn't be available to them. That's what my real issue is with this, unless they can say they had 100% certainty that the ball was out during that 4minute check then the rules as they exist don't allow for them to reverse the decision without sending the ref to the monitor. It's arguing a technicality but it is an important one because if that rule is no longer being followed it should be common knowledge not something that just slips in like this.
If VAR are now allowed to re-referee the game what other cases will come into it? Does this only apply if a goal is scored and, if so, would we have been better off if Kelleher had tipped it round the post instead of pushing it back to Tammy? Meaning instead of having to defend a throin we'd have had an attacking corner? How does that make sense?
Edited because I'm a moron who wrote would instead of wouldn't.
Think you are spot on in your first paragraph Paul. The big issue in this is that the officials have not followed a proper, logical process and have instead made one up themselves. There should be clear processes in place around VAR interventions and get should be followed. Once they decided to check whether the ball gone out (which is a question in itself) it should have followed this process:
On-field ref: Can you check if the ball went out and I need to overturn my decision
VAR official: Will find best angle and you can go to screen and have a look
Conversation between pair at screen: Can't make a definitive decision from the best angle available, so no 'clear and obvious' error made and decision stands.
It would be interesting to hear the audio and see if the ref asked the VAR official to review or they just intervened.
That is exactly how it should be. I still struggle to see how implementing that is so difficult. Have the ref and VAR official both mic'ed up and show the same replay to the crowd and on TV. Therefore we all know what they are looking at, why and how. If it isn't clear it stays refs call.
Rugby and Cricket both do it well - despite a few issues in cricket recently
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the reason they don't show or allow the crowd to listen is so they can make decisions in secret
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The commentators can hear VAR dialogue or are at least informed of what is being said by a producer. This isn't really new, they reference it often.
I don't think this is the case. I believe they get a message/signal (possibly even something colour coded as I've heard some say, "it's gone white") to say something is being reviewed and then that it is cleared OR decision given, e.g., goal stands or ruled out.
This would explain how the TV commentary can sometimes reference something like like, "it's going to stand" or "United/Liverpool/Chelsea will be delighted with this news" before or at the same time as the referee signals the outcome.
The audio is only every released in very exceptional circumstances and then only if there has been a lot of noise from one or more of the 'big' clubs. I could be wrong.
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The commentators can hear VAR dialogue or are at least informed of what is being said by a producer. This isn't really new, they reference it often.
I don't think this is the case. I believe they get a message/signal (possibly even something colour coded as I've heard some say, "it's gone white") to say something is being reviewed and then that it is cleared OR decision given, e.g., goal stands or ruled out.
This would explain how the TV commentary can sometimes reference something like like, "it's going to stand" or "United/Liverpool/Chelsea will be delighted with this news" before or at the same time as the referee signals the outcome.
The audio is only every released in very exceptional circumstances and then only if there has been a lot of noise from one or more of the 'big' clubs. I could be wrong.
I think you're right. If anyone outside of PGMOL heard the conversations we'd know a lot more than we do about the controversial ones becuase there's no chance there wouldn't be someone taking note of everything being said to use in the post game discussions.
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Sorry, I didn't think they hear the mechanics of the decision but I've definitely heard 'the ref has been told [to give it etc]' so maybe that is them just elaborating on knowing the decision before we do rather then actually hearing it, a bit of artistic licence.
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It’s not a conspiracy, but it does a bloody good impression of one at times this season. Chelsea got more penalties in one game than half the league clubs have had all season (obvs we have had zero).
The one on Buendia yesterday blew my mind. Did I see it right? It looked like a very obvious shove. Same thing on Rogers a few weeks ago. The refereeing yesterday was awful. Also the late calls on obvious offsides that nearly crocked Konsa. Add that to the allowing th game to flow nonsense that seems to keep crocking our best players.
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SSN said the shove on Buendia was outside the area
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I don’t think it was and even so, it wasn’t given as a foul.
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I don’t think it was and even so, it wasn’t given as a foul.
I agree with you. Didn't make that clear.
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The one on Buendia yesterday blew my mind. Did I see it right? It looked like a very obvious shove.
It was more of a penalty than the second Chelsea one. I strongly suspect it would have been given to one of the Scab Six.
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The one on Buendia yesterday blew my mind. Did I see it right? It looked like a very obvious shove.
It was more of a penalty than the second Chelsea one. I strongly suspect it would have been given to one of the Scab Six.
Or the Newcastle one
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Excluding excessive force etc, but a barge from the side isn't a foul. A barge from behind is. That simple. It is a penalty. I'm not too bothered because we were shit, but it is categorically a pen.
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Excluding excessive force etc, but a barge from the side isn't a foul. A barge from behind is. That simple. It is a penalty. I'm not too bothered because we were shit, but it is categorically a pen.
If a defender is under a dropping ball and an attacker nudges them without going for the ball, it's a free kick every time, but apparently the other way around, in the area with an opportunity to score then it's fair game.
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The Trippier pull on the Brentford player yesterday as he ran through seemed an obvious foul to me but VAR reviewed and cleared it. Is shirt pulling allowed now and how long does it need to be for it not to be minimal?
I think pushing and pulling in the box for a corner has a whiff of 50/50 about it but when a guy is bearing down on goal and gets pulled back that cannot be minimal can it? I think the critical point here was that it was so early in the game a red and penalty would have been too decisive a decision for them to make so they bottled it. Same thing happens on the half way line after 60 minutes and it is a foul all day long.
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What is now allowed in the prem wouldn’t necessarily be allowed in Europe or International level. This rule change is doing us no favours and certainly not penalising some fouls doesn’t make for a better spectacle.
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What is now allowed in the prem wouldn’t necessarily be allowed in Europe or International level. This rule change is doing us no favours and certainly not penalising some fouls doesn’t make for a better spectacle.
It’s favouring the cloggers and penalising flair.
It’s an awful development and providing refs even more cover for influencing the outcomes.
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The push on Buendia was another shocking decision. It’s a clear opportunity for a shot on goal with the keeper having already made a save low down. It’s a foul for a multitude of reasons;
• The Bournemouth player cannot play the ball without going through Buendia to get it.
• The Bournemouth player gets a clear advantage by pushing Buendia without playing the ball.
• The Bournemouth player prevents a clear opportunity for Buendia through his action without playing the ball.
And then about 2 minutes later and an even lesser push by Watkins on a Bournemouth player and the whistle goes: foul.
Then you see Chelsea’s second penalty yesterday which is even less of a push.
Every week we’re getting a critical decision go against us and it just goes on and on. 2 nil yesterday and Bournemouth aren’t coming back. The Abraham goal gets given last week 5 minutes into the second half against 10 men and it’s likely brentford fold.
It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just really poor and inconsistent officiating where they have a video replay system they’ve enforce stupid rules on how and when it’s used. There’s no doubt that the officials will be influenced by who and for decisions get given against and the ensuing grief that may come there way. Or even to protect their mates. That interview with Mike Riley where he said he didn’t give a decision from VAR because he didn’t want his mate to get grief says it all.
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There seems to be a lot of evidence suggesting they have no problem in deliberately officiating against us.
I am surprised that our owners have not made representations to PGMOL and the FA.
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There seems to be a lot of evidence suggesting they have no problem in deliberately officiating against us.
I am surprised that our owners have not made representations to PGMOL and the FA.
I agree. The media outrage tends to focus minds rightly or wrongly. We need to start drawing attention to things consistently.
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The inconsistency is everywhere. If we make specific issues against us we will start to sound and act like Nottingham Forest. Officiating might be at the lowest ebb in our memories but VAR has also created that. Instead of allowing the game officials to manage the game and use VAR as needed it takes away their confidence to make decisions. VAR is way too involved and threatens to become even more if they expand where it is used.
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The inconsistency is everywhere. If we make specific issues against us we will start to sound and act like Nottingham Forest. Officiating might be at the lowest ebb in our memories but VAR has also created that. Instead of allowing the game officials to manage the game and use VAR as needed it takes away their confidence to make decisions. VAR is way too involved and threatens to become even more if they expand where it is used.
You think we are being treated fairly?
I think there is a an awful lot of evidence to suggest the opposite.
Arsenal mounted a huge campaign against the refs , funny how we haven’t heard a peep out of Arteta.
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I don't go down the corruption line of thought, but every game at the moment seems to have the most blatant decision(s) go against Villa.
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I don't go down the corruption line of thought, but every game at the moment seems to have the most blatant decision(s) go against Villa.
I do not think it’s a coincidence.
We know that there is corruption in the game, if this wasn’t the case we would not be 3 years down the road without Citeh being sanctioned.
The same people that are allowing/ facilitating this are the same people who are facilitating PGMOL to operate in a vacuum.
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The inconsistency is everywhere. If we make specific issues against us we will start to sound and act like Nottingham Forest. Officiating might be at the lowest ebb in our memories but VAR has also created that. Instead of allowing the game officials to manage the game and use VAR as needed it takes away their confidence to make decisions. VAR is way too involved and threatens to become even more if they expand where it is used.
You think we are being treated fairly?
I think there is a an awful lot of evidence to suggest the opposite.
Arsenal mounted a huge campaign against the refs , funny how we haven’t heard a peep out of Arteta.
I haven’t said that. I think some of the decisions against us have been dreadful. But as fans of Aston Villa we are naturally going to look at decisions against us with greater scrutiny than decisions that have favoured us. And with greater scrutiny than decisions fans of other teams might feel aggrieved by. That’s not me saying that refs don’t get influenced at Old Trafford or Anfield or by what Pep, Ferguson, Wenger etc might have said publicly over the years. So do I think unconscious bias exists? Yes. But there are poor decisions across the game. Officiating has to be better and VAR has very much impacted the game in my opinion to the detriment of it and to those who are charged in making decisions on the pitch.
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The inconsistency is everywhere. If we make specific issues against us we will start to sound and act like Nottingham Forest. Officiating might be at the lowest ebb in our memories but VAR has also created that. Instead of allowing the game officials to manage the game and use VAR as needed it takes away their confidence to make decisions. VAR is way too involved and threatens to become even more if they expand where it is used.
You think we are being treated fairly?
I think there is a an awful lot of evidence to suggest the opposite.
Arsenal mounted a huge campaign against the refs , funny how we haven’t heard a peep out of Arteta.
I haven’t said that. I think some of the decisions against us have been dreadful. But as fans of Aston Villa we are naturally going to look at decisions against us with greater scrutiny than decisions that have favoured us. And with greater scrutiny than decisions fans of other teams might feel aggrieved by. That’s not me saying that refs don’t get influenced at Old Trafford or Anfield or by what Pep, Ferguson, Wenger etc might have said publicly over the years. So do I think unconscious bias exists? Yes. But there are poor decisions across the game. Officiating has to be better and VAR has very much impacted the game in my opinion to the detriment of it and to those who are charged in making decisions on the pitch.
As I said there is too much evidence to indicate that we are being discriminated against.
If you choose not to believe that, that’s fine.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
No, I think that certain teams are getting preferential treatment and potential rivals are fair game.
We are collateral damage.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
That’s not what Chicago is saying. I agree with his point on Arteta. He came out and made a big hullabaloo about a few decisions and it’s made a difference. It’s not conspiracy. It’s the fact that the refs are less inclined to make decisions against sides that will likely lead to a backlash from their manager and the media. They have VAR and yet look what happens or rather what doesn’t.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
No, I think that certain teams are getting preferential treatment and potential rivals are fair game.
We are collateral damage.
Those two sentences I think sum it up perfectly.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
That’s not what Chicago is saying. I agree with his point on Arteta. He came out and made a big hullabaloo about a few decisions and it’s made a difference. It’s not conspiracy. It’s the fact that the refs are less inclined to make decisions against sides that will likely lead to a backlash from their manager and the media. They have VAR and yet look what happens or rather what doesn’t.
It wasn’t just Arteta, the club went full on at PGMOL and the FA.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
No, I think that certain teams are getting preferential treatment and potential rivals are fair game.
We are collateral damage.
So in recent weeks that means Arsenal, Everton and Bournemouth with major decisions that have gone in their favour and against us. Let’s say we agree that top teams like Arsenal, loved by the football media and by the PL because they grow the global brand get favourable decisions. How are you explaining the decision Everton got at Villa Park and Bournemouth got yesterday?
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I don't go down the corruption line of thought, but every game at the moment seems to have the most blatant decision(s) go against Villa.
I do not think it’s a coincidence.
We know that there is corruption in the game, if this wasn’t the case we would not be 3 years down the road without Citeh being sanctioned.
The same people that are allowing/ facilitating this are the same people who are facilitating PGMOL to operate in a vacuum.
Fir you TV, I won’t bother arguing with you on this, you have made your mind up.
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Why would Everton and Bournemouth get preferential treatment, then? The insinuation is obviously that "big teams" are getting favourable treatment, like Arteta speaking out, but why would they want to shaft us against the two teams I mentioned? You think they're doing it to stop us competing with Arsenal or something? They're just shit refs.
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I don't go down the corruption line of thought, but every game at the moment seems to have the most blatant decision(s) go against Villa.
I do not think it’s a coincidence.
We know that there is corruption in the game, if this wasn’t the case we would not be 3 years down the road without Citeh being sanctioned.
The same people that are allowing/ facilitating this are the same people who are facilitating PGMOL to operate in a vacuum.
Fir you TV, I won’t bother arguing with you on this, you have made your mind up.
I mean sure. That’s fine. I just don't agree with their being some great conspiracy against us which you seem to be suggesting.
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Why would Everton and Bournemouth get preferential treatment, then? The insinuation is obviously that "big teams" are getting favourable treatment, like Arteta speaking out, but why would they want to shaft us against the two teams I mentioned? You think they're doing it to stop us competing with Arsenal or something? They're just shit refs.
That’s literally all I am saying. The decisions were terrible. They didn’t give us what seemed very obvious decisions against two mid table sides. And we have also received favourable decisions over the season and the years. I’m simply saying officiating is really poor overall in the game and VAR has detrimentally affected the quality overall. It’s highly inconsistent.
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Why would Everton and Bournemouth get preferential treatment, then? The insinuation is obviously that "big teams" are getting favourable treatment, like Arteta speaking out, but why would they want to shaft us against the two teams I mentioned?
To make it easier for Yanited, Chelsea, and Liverpool to catch us. Everton and Bournemouth aren't a threat to the Sky cabal.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
No, I think that certain teams are getting preferential treatment and potential rivals are fair game.
We are collateral damage.
So in recent weeks that means Arsenal, Everton and Bournemouth with major decisions that have gone in their favour and against us. Let’s say we agree that top teams like Arsenal, loved by the football media and by the PL because they grow the global brand get favourable decisions. How are you explaining the decision Everton got at Villa Park and Bournemouth got yesterday?
For me, would those decisions that should have been made for the second booking against Garner and the push on Buendia been given if it was Arsenal or a Chelsea or Man City.
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In the Liverpool/Citeh game Marc Guéhi has just been booked and Liverpool awarded a free kick for a grab of the shirt of Mo Salah. Gary Neville's all "he's got a handfull of his shirt" and I feel like yelling at the screen "This nonsense goes on all the time unpunished". The lack of consistency is infuriating.
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That push on Buendia yesterday was as clear a penalty I’ve seen all season. Favourite to get to the rebound, blatantly pushed.
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So you think PGMOL have all got together in some dark room to screw Aston Villa?
No, I think that certain teams are getting preferential treatment and potential rivals are fair game.
We are collateral damage.
So in recent weeks that means Arsenal, Everton and Bournemouth with major decisions that have gone in their favour and against us. Let’s say we agree that top teams like Arsenal, loved by the football media and by the PL because they grow the global brand get favourable decisions. How are you explaining the decision Everton got at Villa Park and Bournemouth got yesterday?
Any game we play against the likes of B'mouth, Brentford and Everton are not played in isolation to the rest of the PL. If reins are placed on Villa in any game, the likely beneficiaries (in our current position) are likely to be those teams also going for CL football which just happens to be the scab 6 teams. The system is screwed, it needs reform.
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So when Newcastle got CL football, do you think they were trying to stop them with dodgy decisions against the likes of Crystal Palace, Fulham etc?
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99.99999999 % of football followers have an 'opinion' and can never agree after 6 replays and hours of reflection.
00.00000001 % of people are referees who make an instant 'decision' under extreme pressure.
All referees deserve our gratitude for taking on the most thankless job ever.
I think the standard of refereeing is excellent.
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I'm not saying refs re out to get us or that there's some big conspiracy against us but we've now had 5 of the last 7 domestic games be influenced by poor officials.
Arsenal - not sending Merino off for a blatant 2nd yellow.
Spurs - no bookings for Tel and Palhinha because it was 'too early' in the game to uphold the laws.
Everton - no free kick and 2nd yellow for Garner, they scored almost immediately after.
Brentford - dodgy disallowed goal.
Bournemouth - denied a blatant penalty for a barge in the back.
Obviously spurs was in the cup and we were already 2 behind at Arsenal but for the other 3 the decisions clearly had an impact on the result and we could very easily have taken 9 points from those games if the refs had got those pivotal decisions correct. The club have to make some noise about it now because when combined with the utter fucking bullshit at Old Trafford this is really hurting us right now and it isn't evening out, when was the last time we got away with a major one or had some dodgy VAR call in our favour? There's a reason internet twats still go on about Sheffield United and it's because that's the last one anyone can think of.
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99.99999999 % of football followers have an 'opinion' and can never agree after 6 replays and hours of reflection.
00.00000001 % of people are referees who make an instant 'decision' under extreme pressure.
All referees deserve our gratitude for taking on the most thankless job ever.
I think the standard of refereeing is excellent.
Yeah, that's the elephant in the room...in the main. A lot of it is subjective.
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It is subjective but you also have to consider precedence and what refs/pgmol have told clubs before the season started.
So, to use the most recent case as an example, if you decide not to give the push on Buendia that's ok, but you then can't give the one against Watkins later in the game. If pgmol had said they were going to start being more lenient on pushing then fine it's not a pen, but that doesn't tally up with the Watkins one still and there are plenty of incidents across the season where a push has been given as a foul so what is the criteria? If no one knows what is being considered as a foul and what isn't, and the line is blurred to fuck, then you can't call the standard excellent because there's entirely too much uncertainty for everyone.
What needs to desperately happen is for them to pick out a bunch of the key talking points from this season and put together a report of why x is a foul and y isn't and then follow it up with a "for 2026/27 we are going to focus on a,b and c as areas where we feel the laws aren't being followed correctly" and then every week follow up on that and explain how those guidelines have led to the decisions people are seeing, whilst also not being afraid to say "we got this one wrong".
I can't speak for everyone but personally I'd much rather see them hold their hands up and admit it was a mistake than have this circling the wagons bullshit we get everytime which is a huge part of why there's so little trust of referees. I'd be much more willing to accept controversial subjective opinions if I trusted the people making them.
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A few of the obvious pushes on our players (and a couple of others not given) have had commentators state "VAR have upheld the decision that there wasn't enough contact to cause the player to fall like that".
Not sure what that means exactly but it seems to be the go to statement.
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There is no conspiracy against us, it’s just rank incompetence. The laws of the game interpreted seemingly differently week in week out, VAR causing uncertainty for on field officials and as Paul says above PGMOL being reactive rather than proactive in explaining decisions made by their officials. If they were a government department they’d be in special measures. I’ve been watching football since the early 90s and we’ve never had a group of officials (apart from that fat twat Phil Dowd) as incompetent as they are currently. What I would say in their defence is how FIFA are currently tinkering with the rulebook from season to season is not helping consistency and they need much better protocols about the use of and clarity of communication for VAR.
Other than that it’s all going swimmingly.
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A few of the obvious pushes on our players (and a couple of others not given) have had commentators state "VAR have upheld the decision that there wasn't enough contact to cause the player to fall like that".
Not sure what that means exactly but it seems to be the go to statement.
You could have 100 referees sitting in the same room watching a replay of the 'Buendia incident' and then making a decision. It could easily be 50/50, 60/40, 70/30.
Because referees are human beings and no human beings are perfect.
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Because referees are human beings and no human beings are perfect.
Speak for yourself, mate.
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There is no conspiracy against us, it’s just rank incompetence. The laws of the game interpreted seemingly differently week in week out, VAR causing uncertainty for on field officials and as Paul says above PGMOL being reactive rather than proactive in explaining decisions made by their officials. If they were a government department they’d be in special measures. I’ve been watching football since the early 90s and we’ve never had a group of officials (apart from that fat twat Phil Dowd) as incompetent as they are currently. What I would say in their defence is how FIFA are currently tinkering with the rulebook from season to season is not helping consistency and they need much better protocols about the use of and clarity of communication for VAR.
Other than that it’s all going swimmingly.
That is an excellent summary, absolutely spot on.
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Because referees are human beings and no human beings are perfect.
Speak for yourself, mate.
Sorry, I forgot about you.
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A few of the obvious pushes on our players (and a couple of others not given) have had commentators state "VAR have upheld the decision that there wasn't enough contact to cause the player to fall like that".
Not sure what that means exactly but it seems to be the go to statement.
You could have 100 referees sitting in the same room watching a replay of the 'Buendia incident' and then making a decision. It could easily be 50/50, 60/40, 70/30.
Because referees are human beings and no human beings are perfect.
Yes, referees are only human and make mistakes it’s just that they make most of them that go against us. It’s pretty obvious that the ref who didn’t penalise Garner for the non push had his knuckles rapped as that same ref gave a penalty yesterday for virtually the same incident for Chelsea.
As for VAR upholding a decision on a push. Do these VAR people have a secret power that allows them to determine or even see velocity?
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A few of the obvious pushes on our players (and a couple of others not given) have had commentators state "VAR have upheld the decision that there wasn't enough contact to cause the player to fall like that".
Not sure what that means exactly but it seems to be the go to statement.
You could have 100 referees sitting in the same room watching a replay of the 'Buendia incident' and then making a decision. It could easily be 50/50, 60/40, 70/30.
Because referees are human beings and no human beings are perfect.
Great. But within 5 minutes the same incident is officiated differently and then in another game on the same match day, almost identical incident and it’s a penalty.
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I think it's simply unconscious bias by referees. The Sky 6 teams are for better or worse the best supported teams. I think refs have internalised that if they give a decision against a Sky 6 team it will bring down a storm of shit on their heads, from the heavily invested media and the hoards of online dickhead 'supporters'. Not such a worry with little ol' Villa.
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Still doesn't explain all the shit decisions in all the games not involving the 'sky 6'.
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Two things can be true at the same time.
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At the end of the day most Heroes and Villains wear 'claret and blue' tinted glasses. Just like our adversaries down the road wear 'blue and white' tinted glasses and our adversaries from Liverpool wear 'red' tinted glasses and so on.
It is also easier for us to forget the decisions that go in our favour.
Referees are 'f*cked' no matter what decision they make.
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I'm not saying refs re out to get us or that there's some big conspiracy against us but we've now had 5 of the last 7 domestic games be influenced by poor officials.
Arsenal - not sending Merino off for a blatant 2nd yellow.
Spurs - no bookings for Tel and Palhinha because it was 'too early' in the game to uphold the laws.
Everton - no free kick and 2nd yellow for Garner, they scored almost immediately after.
Brentford - dodgy disallowed goal.
Bournemouth - denied a blatant penalty for a barge in the back.
Obviously spurs was in the cup and we were already 2 behind at Arsenal but for the other 3 the decisions clearly had an impact on the result and we could very easily have taken 9 points from those games if the refs had got those pivotal decisions correct. The club have to make some noise about it now because when combined with the utter fucking bullshit at Old Trafford this is really hurting us right now and it isn't evening out, when was the last time we got away with a major one or had some dodgy VAR call in our favour? There's a reason internet twats still go on about Sheffield United and it's because that's the last one anyone can think of.
You missed the Forest game when their lad strolls over and pushes Rogers to the ground with two hands when he's on the ball and in the box.
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I think it's simply unconscious bias by referees. The Sky 6 teams are for better or worse the best supported teams. I think refs have internalised that if they give a decision against a Sky 6 team it will bring down a storm of shit on their heads, from the heavily invested media and the hoards of online dickhead 'supporters'. Not such a worry with little ol' Villa.
I think this is a lot of it, and also it's a bit in how we play, we're not a bunch of cloggers so gain no advantage from relaxing the contact rules and we have players that try to beat their opponent which encourages the grappling.
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You missed the Forest game when their lad strolls over and pushes Rogers to the ground with two hands when he's on the ball and in the box.
Twice.
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I'm not saying refs re out to get us or that there's some big conspiracy against us but we've now had 5 of the last 7 domestic games be influenced by poor officials.
Arsenal - not sending Merino off for a blatant 2nd yellow.
Spurs - no bookings for Tel and Palhinha because it was 'too early' in the game to uphold the laws.
Everton - no free kick and 2nd yellow for Garner, they scored almost immediately after.
Brentford - dodgy disallowed goal.
Bournemouth - denied a blatant penalty for a barge in the back.
Obviously spurs was in the cup and we were already 2 behind at Arsenal but for the other 3 the decisions clearly had an impact on the result and we could very easily have taken 9 points from those games if the refs had got those pivotal decisions correct. The club have to make some noise about it now because when combined with the utter fucking bullshit at Old Trafford this is really hurting us right now and it isn't evening out, when was the last time we got away with a major one or had some dodgy VAR call in our favour? There's a reason internet twats still go on about Sheffield United and it's because that's the last one anyone can think of.
You missed the Forest game when their lad strolls over and pushes Rogers to the ground with two hands when he's on the ball and in the box.
I did, but mostly because it didn't impact the result or lead to any of our players being injured (this is what I meant by the games were influenced by the officials) but yes, there's been plenty of other poor decisions over the season as well.
I just wish it'd start evening out because that's how this is supposed to be ok but I honestly can't remember anything where we 'got away with one' or the officials did something dumb that we benefitted from this season. There's been a few little things where the ball hits an arm and you get some "I've seen those given" comments or there's a foul that gets missed in a safe place in midfield but actually being given a free kick/penalty for nothing or not having a clear one given against us? I don't recall any and I certainly can't think of any case where our players have been shown surprising leniency by refs.
In fact we're 15th for fouls committed and top for fouls against, which makes it pretty clear that teams are considerably more physical against us than we are back.
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The BBC have live updates in the non-goal yesterday. Our non-goal barely registered as a news story.
If it shines more light on VAR then its hopefully a good thing. VAR is not making the game better.
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Interesting how VAR is now getting involved in almost all the activity on the pitch. Just watching the Chelsea Leeds game and it has seemingly checked a throw-in as well as confirming a yellow card decision. Neither of those were in the original VAR remit. Bizarre.
And, while I'm at it, why do refs pace out the 10yds for free kicks that are vaguely in shooting distance, and ignore the ruling for free kicks in other areas of the pitch? I used, as a ref, to yellow-card players for not withdrawing to the 10yds distance.
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I think refs have come to rely on var so don’t make decisions
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I think refs have come to rely on var so don’t make decisions
Apart from Thomas Barmhall.
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Perhaps he'll pay us back the thirty-odd million from his Prem ref's salary.
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I think refs have come to rely on var so don’t make decisions
Apart from Thomas Barmhall.
Whatever happened to him?
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Reffing League 2 games, probably.
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He was in charge of the Brighton v Palace game last Sunday.
He doesn't seem to have had any involvement in any of our games this season. They're probably saving him for the Manchester City game at the end of the season.
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I think the refs typically do their best navigating the inconsistencies and subjectivity in the laws when it is beteeen the non big 6 clubs.
The issue comes with the big 6 teams. As has been said above, The refs are naturally more reluctant to give controversial decisions against them, particularly when laying non big 6 sides, because they will come under massive media scrutiny and also may be stopped from reffing those teams again. Naturallly the bigger matches.Fetgusson used this all the time to select preferable referees.
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I have said this a few time but i think the most shit thing about VAR is the fact that the muppets like Neville and co get to know the outcome well before the paying fans do in the stadium after waiting for 5 minutes.
I also feel that when you hear same said pundits comment "Ref took a few seconds there to decide" it really means ref did nothing and VAR told him in his ear "that was a foul" etc
It has gone from being a ref support to being the faction that refs the game in the main. I do not think any ref has a bias against us BUT i do support clearly the intimidation / size of the club plays a huge impact on their decision making. I mean it always did as i remember many end of game winning pens awarded at the Kop end when P.lop were in their pomp.
Its just now it is a lot easer to manipulate decisions by the assistance of VAR in certain teams favour*
And i have not heard a credible reasoning behind the auto off side using any part of the anatomy to call offside - i always thought it was a goal scoring part of the body??
*and certain teams are the same scum 6 money teams that all the media fawn over to try and maintain their position as click bait leaders
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I also feel that when you hear same said pundits comment "Ref took a few seconds there to decide" it really means ref did nothing and VAR told him in his ear "that was a foul" etc
You might feel it, but as the Duran sending off shows, they are actually getting info from the Assistant Ref and fourth official. Of course, as that commentary shows, he will just ignore them both and make his own decision if a player happens to be holding somewhere else for no reason he even knew at the time. (It could have easily been a groin strain as much as being caught with a foot). Once he did red VAR was not overruling it.
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I've always thought that the best way to implement VAR would be to allow the ref to do his job, and allow each team two opportunities to ask the ref to review any incidents in each half. You could then do away with Stockley Park, and the ref would have to review his decision on a monitor.
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I quite like that idea Rico.
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I've always thought that the best way to implement VAR would be to allow the ref to do his job, and allow each team two opportunities to ask the ref to review any incidents in each half. You could then do away with Stockley Park, and the ref would have to review his decision on a monitor.
I've suggested the same in the past. The NFL has coaches challenges and football could do the same thing. Now in the NFL there is video replay on all touchdowns but usually those are reasonably quick as there needs to clear evidence to overturn the onfield decision. Where it gets a little complex at times is on certain catches. But the PL and football could learn a lot from how the NFL uses video replay and at least get better. Most fans just don't need football decisions to be so specific or forensically adjudicated.
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I've always thought that the best way to implement VAR would be to allow the ref to do his job, and allow each team two opportunities to ask the ref to review any incidents in each half. You could then do away with Stockley Park, and the ref would have to review his decision on a monitor.
It was the likes of Sky that constantly pushed to get video refereeing into the game as i would "stop all the incorrect calls" What they have now they feel must add to the "drama" of the premier league product they have control over so there is no way it will ever be pulled back. If anything it will start looking at corners, throw ins and all aspects of the game. The longer it takes the more they can force feed us their tactical insights of the likes of Neville, Smith and and the squealing Carragher
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Interesting how VAR is now getting involved in almost all the activity on the pitch. Just watching the Chelsea Leeds game and it has seemingly checked a throw-in as well as confirming a yellow card decision. Neither of those were in the original VAR remit. Bizarre.
They have made a mess of it really. The whole idea was that it was going to eradicate the 'howler' not be used to officiate the game. It's the same with rugby, there just seems to be this fascination to try and make sure that every single decision is right and it's spoiling the game.
They could have made it very simple and just kept to the principle that an on-field decision should only be overturned if a clear and obvious mistake has been made.
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The "2 referal incidents in each half" would just mean every team refers each goal conceded to the monitor leading to longer reviews and hold up. I can't see how that helps.
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The "2 referal incidents in each half" would just mean every team refers each goal conceded to the monitor leading to longer reviews and hold up. I can't see how that helps.
Not really. Players don't protest every goal. In the NFL, if a coach with two challenges loses the first one, the don't get a second. If they win the first one they keep the second. So it forces them to use the challenge with more scrutiny.
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How many touchdowns are there on average in each match vs goals in football?
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Chelsea got another penalty yesterday for s push in the back on a player. Two in two games for similar offences.
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Excellent 'dink' finisher as well.
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How many touchdowns are there on average in each match vs goals in football?
Yeah, I agree. You'd just use it for it every goal.
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Think someone needs to do a compilation of all the non penalties we’ve had this season. Getting a bit ridiculous
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Good job we didn't get the Abraham pen as Ty scored from the corner.
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Good job we didn't get the Abraham pen as Ty scored from the corner.
See. The ref knows we're shit at pens, they like us, really.
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Good job we didn't get the Abraham pen as Ty scored from the corner.
Although Tammy would have taken it. Then we would have seen if he had already adopted the Villa approach.
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At what point did a push become acceptable? I’ve seen a push waved away by the ref in so many matches now, or a blatant pull of the shirt. It’s getting ridiculous what is now deemed acceptable.
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I thought having given a card so early to their player he might have been stronger. All it did was allow a lot of niggly fouls by Brighton to go unpunished as the ref didn’t want to be seen as card happy.
Given what he showed the yellow card for in the first 2 minutes Baleba should have got a second one and Hinshelwood should have got one for a couple of fouls he did.
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Wonder if we’re top of the referees apology league table?
Do you get a trophy? Qualify for Europe?
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I thought the ref was absolutely fine last night.
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I thought the ref was absolutely fine last night.
If he had reffed us against Spurs we would still have Kamara up and running.
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He was still inconsistent though. He booked their player after a couple of minutes but allowed advantage around ten minutes later when someone went through Onana from behind but didn't go back and book him.
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He was still inconsistent though. He booked their player after a couple of minutes but allowed advantage around ten minutes later when someone went through Onana from behind but didn't go back and book him.
It was the same player, Balaban. That's why Brighton subbed him after 23 minutes. Even they knew he was lucky to not see a red.
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He was still inconsistent though. He booked their player after a couple of minutes but allowed advantage around ten minutes later when someone went through Onana from behind but didn't go back and book him.
It was the same player, Balaban. That's why Brighton subbed him after 23 minutes. Even they knew he was lucky to not see a red.
I didn't realise it was Balena again because it was so late I almost missed it.
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I thought the ref was absolutely fine last night.
If he had reffed us against Spurs we would still have Kamara up and running.
Doubt it very much. Palinaha would have still taken out Kamara as Kamara had done him with skill.
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Last night the ref was better but he still missed the penalty. What I don't understand though is VAR looked at it and backed up his decision so he either told them he saw the push and deemed it not enough to be a foul or he didn't see it and they decided not to send him to the monitor, which again isn't the policy they're supposed to follow. If it's the former then someone has got things very wrong in the last week because that was a clearer foul than at least one of the Chelsea penalties at the weekend.
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The last two Villla games; two pushes using both on a player in the box resulted in no penalties. Last two Chelsea games, same thing but two or penalties given. Different standard of refereeing.
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Actually thought the ref was pretty good last night. Did well booking their player for a cynical foul, early on.
Thought it was a pen for us, but could see how he'd have missed it.
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Actually thought the ref was pretty good last night. Did well booking their player for a cynical foul, early on.
Thought it was a pen for us, but could see how he'd have missed it.
Yep me too, but I don't see how VAR then doesn't send him to screen, that's what I was getting at earlier, it feels to me like that part of the process is being slowly phased out with the VAR now trusted to make judgement calls on things, but that should be something that was announced not just snuck in.
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It was very odd last night - “not enough of a push” - it’s a two handed push to the chest.
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I don't think the ref missed it though which is why VAR then didn't intervene bercause he stated nothing wrong with the push. But because PGMOL have stopped with any semblence of transparancy this season compared to last, we will never hear the transcripts to find out.
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It was very odd last night - “not enough of a push” - it’s a two handed push to the chest.
We certainly get our fair share of, it’s a foul but not enough of a foul situations! What the heck is all that about and how did this suddenly creep into the English game?
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Surely we will get a pen or two before the end of the season...
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We’re the most fouled team in the premier league this season and yet we have had no penalties in the league. Work that one out.
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It was very odd last night - “not enough of a push” - it’s a two handed push to the chest.
We certainly get our fair share of, it’s a foul but not enough of a foul situations! What the heck is all that about and how did this suddenly creep into the English game?
It enables the refs to do what they want.
The level of inconsistency in this area is off the scale.
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I just watched the ref cam video from the Man Utd spurs game where the centre half gets send off. It strikes home how insanely fast the game is at pitch level. They’ve got a really hard job.
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I just watched the ref cam video from the Man Utd spurs game where the centre half gets send off. It strikes home how insanely fast the game is at pitch level. They’ve got a really hard job.
It is but they aren’t doing it equally badly for all.
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I just watched the ref cam video from the Man Utd spurs game where the centre half gets send off. It strikes home how insanely fast the game is at pitch level. They’ve got a really hard job.
It is but they aren’t doing it equally badly for all.
Agree it feels like that this season.
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I know we have had some really bad decisions go against us but good grief today we had almost the luck and still got battered. The standard of refereeing without VAR was astonishingly bad.
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VAR had a great night.
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The standard of refereeing with VAR is astonishingly bad. Today was beyond ridiculous which was only matched by our performance.
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They don’t know how to ref anymore, I mean, not like they did before but now without their pals to help out it’s a joke, it was hilarious to watch just how bad it was today.
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A ref shouldn't be relying on VAR to work out if a player was a yard inside the area or not. The lino was also on that side and didn't correct him. I do wonder if he would have been as fast to blow and award a pen for it IF he thought it was inside the box though.
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We massively got the rub of the green tonight. Wasted 3 big decisions go in our favour.
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That daft ****** Murphy saying that tonight is why we need VAR.
That's right Danny, so instead of getting it wrong once, they get it wrong twice and make everyone wait 5 minutes while they do it. Or make up some spurious rule that no one has ever heard of to justify their fuck up.
Just what we need.
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That daft ****** Murphy saying that tonight is why we need VAR.
That's right Danny, so instead of getting it wrong once, they get it wrong twice and make everyone wait 5 minutes while they do it. Or make up some spurious rule that no one has ever heard of to justify their fuck up.
Just what we need.
There really isn't an argument against VAR after tonight. Aside from the main refereeing errors, offside was a complete lottery tonight. That's key to our defensive shape. Referee shouldnt have got both Digne decisions wrong, VAR or not.
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Murphy has entirely missed the point. Not for the first time. I don’t think fans oppose VAR outright. It’s how it’s implemented. If it was quick review that corrected clear and obvious errors then we’d all get on with it. Today we had some glaring errors that went in our favour that VAR would and should have corrected. But it’s the ones they decide to involve themselves in that take 5 minutes to rule on that clearly aren’t clear and obvious errors that we are all colossally tired with. Danny Murphy is a fucking bell end. That’s clear and obvious.
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Those decisions today were so bad it's as if they were purposely made bad to secure the future inclusion of VAR
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I agree with others, you don't need VAR to work out that Danny Murphy is a clear and obvious twunt.
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I don't think I would have found it quite so funny if all of those appalling decisions by the ref went the way they should have. Shame really as I would have loved to have beaten Newcastle with so many injustices.
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That daft ****** Murphy saying that tonight is why we need VAR.
That's right Danny, so instead of getting it wrong once, they get it wrong twice and make everyone wait 5 minutes while they do it. Or make up some spurious rule that no one has ever heard of to justify their fuck up.
Just what we need.
There really isn't an argument against VAR after tonight. Aside from the main refereeing errors, offside was a complete lottery tonight. That's key to our defensive shape. Referee shouldnt have got both Digne decisions wrong, VAR or not.
There is an argument, the same one that had football just fine for one hundred odd years before it turned up.
If anything last night underlined the damage VAR is doing to the abilities of referees, much like AI it's breeding brainless morons
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The calls the ref got wrong last night were incredible.
It wasnt just the number of mistakes, it was the magnitude of them.
I think VAR has massively diluted the quality of referees and their ability to do the job without their hand being held.
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The calls the ref got wrong last night were incredible.
It wasnt just the number of mistakes, it was the magnitude of them.
I think VAR has massively diluted the quality of referees and their ability to do the job without their hand being held.
Only the EPL ref’s. European and international football seems to get along fine with VAR. I’ve not seen too many controversies in our recent euro ventures but it’s multiple incidents per game in the EPL and with interminable time delays.
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And yet again the focus will be VAR or not VAR and again not one journalist will call out Howard Webb for the fact that the referees are not improving and VAR is not improving. When Riley was in charge they’d be on his back every week…now Webb who was perceived as a better ref is in charge he gets off scott free, just a scripted show with personality vacuum Owen every few months.
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And yet again the focus will be VAR or not VAR and again not one journalist will call out Howard Webb for the fact that the referees are not improving and VAR is not improving. When Riley was in charge they’d be on his back every week…now Webb who was perceived as a better ref is in charge he gets off scott free, just a scripted show with personality vacuum Owen every few months.
Absolutely, and the point I was trying to make above.
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This is the key point, as was proved yesterday, refereeing is not easy we all get that, but the level of incompetence on show yesterday was staggering. Would VAR have made a difference, probably? But we all know the issues with VAR as well. PGMOL is a shit show from top to bottom.
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The ref shouldn't have needed VAR last night the mistakes weren't 50:50 they were clear and obvious
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The non-penalty decision was the only clear and obvious decision that was purely down to the ref's incompetence, and I still wonder IF he would have been so eager to call it handball if he through Digne was in the box, but I haven't really watched the highlights to see how deliberate the handball was, although some on here have questioned it. Offsides run at about 90% called correctly whilst the Digne challenge is about 90% called yellow.
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Every professional footballer should have to a referee course in order to be paid to play the game.
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Maybe in the Cup and VAR is not being used they need to use Referees that are not using VAR normally. It seemed like last night the ref and linesmen were useless without it and their skills have been watered down.
They were really poor last night.
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Maybe in the Cup and VAR is not being used they need to use Referees that are not using VAR normally. It seemed like last night the ref and linesmen were useless without it and their skills have been watered down.
They were really poor last night.
That has been my main point Ian about how VAR has been used.
Which seems to be far wider than its original intention.
It’s basically deskilled the officials.
I guess the question is why has this not happened in other European leagues?
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The scary thought is this is as good as it gets !
These are supposedly the best refs we have, supported by a large 'professional' organization and they are still unable to provide the level of performance demanded by the modern game. They are under increasing scrutiny because of the leaps in technology available to almost everyone and there comes a time when even at their best, it isn't good enough. Maybe we have hit this ceiling...and the answer isn't necessarily more autonomous technology. Can you imagine games reffed by ai, with minimal human input ?
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Blaming VAR lets the refs and more specifically PGMOL off the hook for their both awful lack of basic ability and the clear acceptance of the basic errors that come with with it.
The entire structure needs to be torn up and replaced because it isn't making them better at their job, it isn't making fans more trusting of them and it isn't producing any sort of consistency.
Refs make mistakes, they're human and will have their own biases, misunderstandings and sometimes just won't have a good view, I think everyone would accept that if we didn't have VAR then back up those mistakes and then have PGMOL back up those mistakes by pretending that the laws cover for it, before quietly changing the law to stop it happening again. Be honest about your flaws and stop trying to hide them and there would be a lot more trust.
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You also have the 'reverse Var' issue, as we found out at Old Trafford last season.
Bramhall had mostly reffed Champs games where, of course you make your decisions and blow your whistle accordingly, as there is no VAR at that level.
Rogers then scores 'that' goal and the ref blows his whistle instead of waiting for the ball to cross the line.
Thirty million quid when you're ready, ref.
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I notice Dougie was booked a couple of minutes into the match. So the gobshites who were saying that it was too early in the Spurs match to book Paulinha were being gobshites. Who'da thought?
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Ahh, but if he had dived in and could have injured someone, that part of the game needs to breath. A slight shirt tug though is an evil on the game and needs irradicating as soon as possible.
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Does this mean we're likely to get less 5050 calls going forward? Refs will subconsciously think we had too many decisions go our way that have caused negative headlines so we'll have to watch them "even them up" while we protest in vain about Old Trafford last year balancing out all the ones in our favour. :(
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Yes, probably, we've been firmly brushed with the "wow Villa got away with loads so they are to blame for needing VAR" now and everyone will be against us!
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Chris Kavanagh and Nick Greenhalgh stood down for this weekend's games. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c15xq3y41v9o
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https://x.com/i/status/2028190042858963047
Scandalous, it's like he taps him on the shoulder with one finger.
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Seeing that makes me realise that clubs like us, Geordies et Al, have absolutely no chance of breaking through properly.
The fact that that's been seen by VAR too proves it's corrupt.
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Seeing that makes me realise that clubs like us, Geordies et Al, have absolutely no chance of breaking through properly.
The fact that that's been seen by VAR too proves it's corrupt.
It’s hard to come up with any other conclusion.
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The ref & VAR had the opportunity there to (in some small part) redeem themselves by flagging that as a clear dive and booking Cunha, but no - they took the same route as refs have at Old Trafford for years. In plain sight.
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Seeing that makes me realise that clubs like us, Geordies et Al, have absolutely no chance of breaking through properly.
The fact that that's been seen by VAR too proves it's corrupt.
It’s hard to come up with any other conclusion.
We had a similar situation against Forest when Rogers went into the box and Eliot Anderson blatantly pulls him back and we got nothing.
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Or the Garner 2 handed shove in Rogers back. Outside the box but clear as day to everyone watching, bar the ref.
It's OK though, because they said soz after.
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The ref & VAR had the opportunity there to (in some small part) redeem themselves by flagging that as a clear dive and booking Cunha, but no - they took the same route as refs have at Old Trafford for years. In plain sight.
If the ref is asked to go to VAR and look at the incident that’s a big clue that VAR think he has got the call wrong. Usually the referee goes along with their opinion. Not in this instance though as the referee doubles down on his decision. This I believe is only something that can happen at Old Trafford.
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Further more, I’m not a fan of the Premier League “corrupt as fuck” chant but it does make you wonder.
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This weekend was the one my love of football died a little more than any other. Total corruption.
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He really didn't look convinced to me, and if anything, was on the sceptical side.
So, I thought that the ref didn't know which way to call it, and decided to give it on the basis that "VAR would check".
VAR then checked it and waved it on as it wasn't a "clear and obvious error".
And then said, hang on, he was through on goal, so there must be a red.
Which just goes to show that the referee's decision, even pending VAR review, is not a neutral thing.
Had he refused it, would VAR have asked him to reconsider?
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Maguire waving imaginary cards didn't help, either
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I'd blotted out all perception of football after Friday so I've only just seen that, and that is a fucking unbelievable decision that if we had a functioning media would've set off an actual inquest. Like, what? What???
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By hook or by crook the PL will get MU into the top 5, it stinks!
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I'd blotted out all perception of football after Friday so I've only just seen that, and that is a fucking unbelievable decision that if we had a functioning media would've set off an actual inquest. Like, what? What???
The silence is deafening.
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I'd blotted out all perception of football after Friday so I've only just seen that, and that is a fucking unbelievable decision that if we had a functioning media would've set off an actual inquest. Like, what? What???
It was pretty mindblowing when I watched on TV in real time and couldn't believe that there was absolutely no pushback from anyone; even CP players seemed so shocked that they offered little in the way of dissent.
After our reffing decisions vs Everton and Forest, in particular, it's hard not to feel somewhat aggrieved! And, when we watch players grappling with each other at corners (a la Big Daddy vs Giant Haystacks), the LaCroix 'brush' with Cunha is even more bizarre.
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I was out running and listening to the Utd game on Talksport. The pundits all said it was definitely a penalty and sending off. I couldn't believe what I was seeing when watching it back last night. It may not be corruption, but only a few teams would get that decision. Funny how Utd happened to be 1-0 and struggling at the time it happened.
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By hook or by crook the PL will get MU into the top 5, it stinks!
And the same with p.lop - they dont seem to fussed about Chelsea but i think that is that they dont like their owners and just like City are only where they are due to years of money thrown at them.
Bet they are gutted Spurs are so shit though
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That old saying of things even themselves out over a season has never been proven more wrong.
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I'd blotted out all perception of football after Friday so I've only just seen that, and that is a fucking unbelievable decision that if we had a functioning media would've set off an actual inquest. Like, what? What???
It was pretty mindblowing when I watched on TV in real time and couldn't believe that there was absolutely no pushback from anyone; even CP players seemed so shocked that they offered little in the way of dissent.
After our reffing decisions vs Everton and Forest, in particular, it's hard not to feel somewhat aggrieved! And, when we watch players grappling with each other at corners (a la Big Daddy vs Giant Haystacks), the LaCroix 'brush' with Cunha is even more bizarre.
[/
Absolutely, the wrestling match at Arse v chelsea yesterday was just ridiculous.
Too many of these decisions are always falling for the shitty 6, and particularly Man U.
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Why don’t they just let AI ref the games from now on? I’m sure it would do a better job than Chris Kavanagh. It is getting worse by the week isn’t it? I’m not just imagining it am I? The Burnley disallowed goals were incredibly bad as well.
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I'd blotted out all perception of football after Friday so I've only just seen that, and that is a fucking unbelievable decision that if we had a functioning media would've set off an actual inquest. Like, what? What???
I had the misfortune to be a passenger in a car listening to Talk Sport. It was horrendous, talking about how great Man Utd are, if they had Carrick from the start they would be contenders and the penalty was as clear a penalty as you will ever see and there would be no complaints from anyone regarding the decision.
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With the unbiased man united nob jockey Alex Crook.
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Why don’t they just let AI ref the games from now on? I’m sure it would do a better job than Chris Kavanagh. It is getting worse by the week isn’t it? I’m not just imagining it am I? The Burnley disallowed goals were incredibly bad as well.
Except AI would just work off learned experience and it would provide us with the same problem 100% of the time.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TxNcvZjG/IMG-9152.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxNcvZjG)
Fucking pathetic.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TxNcvZjG/IMG-9152.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxNcvZjG)
Fucking pathetic.
Utterly fucking meaningless. Doesn't help Palace, us or any of the other teams aiming for top 5.
Here's sn idea Howard. Employ some refs who aren't total bleeding cucks to the favoured few.
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https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/mar/02/referees-big-calls-tottenham-spurs-arsenal-burnley-brentford
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Is that real? FFS
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Chris Foy defending refs shock. Quite ironic I have an advert for an eye check within the article as well.
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https://x.com/i/status/2028176857791672725
Here's another view, if you want to get even more pissed off. Ludicrous.
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Many of us having been calling out these consistent inconsistencies for months. These aren’t just occasional instances; it’s almost every single week; shocking decisions made against non fancied media teams Vs shocking decisions made in favour of fancied media teams. There’s not even the opportunity to start to forget about it because they happen every match week.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TxNcvZjG/IMG-9152.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxNcvZjG)
Fucking pathetic.
That is beyond parody - holy fucking moly.
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https://x.com/i/status/2028176857791672725
Here's another view, if you want to get even more pissed off. Ludicrous.
Okay, so Lacroix shouldn't have a hand anywhere near Cunha, but that is - as it looked first time on Sunday - a clear dive, for which a yellow card should have been given and a free kick to CP. End of.
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Webb should be at Stockley Park for every game, supervising every decision, until they start sorting it out.
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(https://i.ibb.co/TxNcvZjG/IMG-9152.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TxNcvZjG)
Fucking pathetic.
That is beyond parody - holy fucking moly.
Well it is just a parody or "fake" isn't it? VAR very rarely release anything these days as the lauded transparency has disappeared along with the review program they used to do, and definitely not within 24 hours after a game. If someone links to a credible source for the comments in the screen shot I might be less cynical about it.
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I've watched that a few times now and I just can't work out how the ref isn't able to see it's a clear dive. I just can't understand how that can happen at the same time that there's wrestling at every corner that's being allowed to go uncontested. Just in our games since Christmas there's 7-8 examples of far more contact being allowed, if you broaden it to all games for all clubs this season there'd have been hundreds of extra free kicks and penalties given if this is the threshold.
This comes back to the problem I've had for ages, there's just no consistency it must be a nightmare for players right now not knowing what is going to be allowed or not.
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Agreed paul_e. I could buy that it was a foul if we were regularly seeing freekicks and penos given for this type of contact.
But what we are seeing instead is mass wrestling at corners and a general encouragement to "let the game flow", together with VAR checks that often seem to dismissed due to "insignificant contact". Because of that general trend, I have been mentally raising the bar on what a peno could be and, as a result, I was shocked at the decision on Sunday.
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"not enough contact" is the same as "different phase of play" in that there are no set parameters, so there can be no correct decision - it's a subjective one made by the official. Therefore the decision can be made to suit any set of circumstances.
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Add that level of bullshit (the Chuna challenge) to the constant man handling in the penalty box at corners is becoming a joke. It seems as Arsenal are to win the league with tactics Pulis and Warnock would be fully erect over and the rules are being applied in completely different levels depending on who is playing.
The whole game sucks at the moment