Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Toronto Villa on November 03, 2013, 01:25:48 AM
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So you've heard the saying Lies, damn lies and statistics. I know that some will say that numbers never lie, and then others will say they never tell the whole truth. I find myself in the second camp in most things. After today I thought I'd look at some numbers to see if there is any real sign of improvement being made, or if things are as they seem and the road ahead appears long and weary.
When Lambert sits down with his staff they look at more than the aesthetic value of our play. Moreso than a fan would I imagine. Here are some things I found interesting.
The obvious:
The first 10 games this season, W3, D2, L5, F9, A12, GD -3, Pts 11
Over the first 10 games last season: W2, D3, L5, F8, A 14, GD -6, Pts 9
The two starts are not that disimilar in terms of points gained. Obviously 2 extra points, GD is better by 3, we've scored 1 more goal and conceded 2 less. We've played well at times this season and had some excellent results. Arsenal was well deserved, should have got more from Chelsea, Man City an excellent second half. Last season of the first 10, only Swansea at home stands out performance wise to match the result.
The glass half full perspective is as follows in terms of recognising progression:
Taking out the game against Hull City because we didn't play them last season, we have 10 points from 9 games. Taking the position that all teams have tried to improve, in the corresponding games last season our record is as follows:
W1, D0, L9, F6, A24, GD -18, Pts 3
Our record this season vs last season against the same teams in the corresponding fixtures provides us with 7 more points, 3 more goals, 12 less goals conceded and an improvement in GD of +15.
When I hear Lambert praising the team, recognizing hard work and effort I think he also crediting improvements over last season. I think what we are seeing is a team in transition. One that was way too liberal last season with giving the opposition space and time. Conceding stupid goals from comedy defending. I'm not for a minute saying that hasn't happened at times or won't happen but the instances are down. Last season conceding a corner almost guaranteed a goal. You can't say that this season so readily.
If there were two things we all wanted to see this season in terms of progression it would have been first and foremost an improvement in defending. We've seen that. We have been better. It still needs to improve but it is better because it was chaos last season. This season we are more solid and organised than last. The other thing was midfield creativity. That hasn't been solved and I believe that it will be the highest priority in the next few windows. Not only now to provide chances for the existing forwards but also to address the post Benteke era where Kozak appears to be the successor.
This post isn't about being positive. It's more about a sense of perspective. We've taken a direction where we are going to spend conservatively while we still have large contracts on the books. That the club will continue to give young prospects a chance as opposed to established players. While that is a risky strategy, it doesn't offer any guarantee that we would be any better off. Look at Fulham as a comparison. We need a blend of both but it appears we might consider that once we permanently relieve ourselves of Given, Bent, Hutton, Ireland and N'Zogbia who still represent the good part of £300,000 a week.
My own conclusion as tough as it might be to watch at times this season we are going to become a bit more dour in an attempt to tighten up as a unit. The chances are being created, they just haven't been put away. We haven't been as clinical, and Gabby and Andi haven't been close to the form they showed at the end of last season. That will need to change if we are to start being efficient again up front because opponents will simply key in on Benteke all the time. He can't do it all himself.
We will improve but I think it will be much more steady and much less volatile than last season. We will be harder to beat and defeats will rarely be as spectacular as some of last seasons efforts. I also believe in games where we are leading we won't fall apart as we did last season and we will close games out better. The next few games, though important won't define our season but will continue to offer clues as to how quickly we can move through this period of transition.
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Good analysis though I wouldn't quite agree that the chances are being created. If we're relying on scoring from every chance we make, then I guess so. Realistically though, most teams manage to fashion a healthy number of openings (over five, as an estimate) in each game. We struggle to match that because of our poor possession stats (lowest/joint lowest in the league I believe, this season. Granted, we've played the top teams who you'd expect to dominate territorially) meaning that we curse the few chances missed that we do manage to make for ourselves. Moreso because they largely come on the break when the player who misses the chance generally has a bit more time and space to put it away.
One other point, if we are to continue to give unproven players their heads, I do wish we could then try a creative player. Be it Carruthers, Helenius, Grealish, Tonev getting more time or someone else as it's the one area where there is a clear need for someone.
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I am not sure we can claim to be in transition or not. If the path from now on is one of getting better at what we are currently doing, it isn't transition. That is what is starting to be a worry.
Yesterday's game was straight out of the O'Neil 'how to blag your way into being a better class of also ran' handbook. Ugly stuff.
Lambert needs to demonstrate that he thinks Villa can be better than that. Then we'll be in transition.
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I think we've transitioned - the plan at VP appears to be survival whilst keeping the wage bill low or am I missing something? We have tightened up (but from a very low point) and when our first choice 11 are fit we can play some entertaining stuff and get results but the squad has no depth (and the first 11 are thin enough already). I assume the financial issues from the MON era are now mainly worked through but maybe there is still some fiscal drag at work and in one of the transfer windows PL is going to surprise us with a couple of top signings.
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I still think last years accounts showed quite a lot of subsidy from Lerner? He may want some of his money back at some point too . . ?
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Didn't see the game yesterday but assume it was limited entertainment. That's it really for me, I want to be entertained. If this IS what transition looks like, let's hope it happens sooner rather than later.
We have an honest manager, honest players. A young team with plenty of goodwill from the fans. That can all change if we don't turn into something more entertaining after a while.
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A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
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Can you frame that against Spurs net spend please TV?
In all seriousness it is the middle segment of stats which is the most telling and is proof for me that we are a better outfit.
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Can you frame that against Spurs net spend please TV?
In all seriousness it is the middle segment of stats which is the most telling and is proof for me that we are a better outfit.
Lets wait until January when we have played each team and see how we compare at that stage.
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Transition? More like pissing in the wind. Not a criticism of Lambert, it's just that without major investment in quality players, we'll never be better than we are now.
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A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
But isn't that part of what TV was saying? - that we've done better than last season almost despite (i) other teams sussing us out and (ii) other teams having invested more aggressively than us.
I think we are definitely 'in transition'. Last season was a major shock to the system as PL turned his back on the high-rolling experienced players he inherited: consider, for a minute, what a gamble that was, and yet he managed to just about pull it off.
This season, he is continuing that process, with just as much of a gamble about it: 7 new players in, of whom we'd really only heard about 1 (he who now warms the rehab couch). As per last year, some of these purchases look a bit dud, so we are still very much in the work-in-progress stage.
When he has offloaded the final remnants of the GHou / TSM eras - Bent, Ireland, Given, N'Zog and Hutton - he will have more flexibility in signings. The massive question for me is: does he recognise those areas of the squad that require significant investment in talent and experience?
Until he invests in these critical signings we won;t know whether the transition has moved us into a competitive situation or an also-ran position in the Premiership.
That's transition.
Good OP, by the way, TV.
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In answer to Toronto Villa's excellent post, yes, I think this is what transition looks like. Steady improvement and movement up the table is all I'm looking for at the moment and I want to see that the rot of the past couple of seasons - the stench of mismanagement, relegation and chaos - has been removed from the club. Lambert is quietly, without fuss, getting it done.
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A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
But isn't that part of what TV was saying? - that we've done better than last season almost despite (i) other teams sussing us out and (ii) other teams having invested more aggressively than us.
I think we are definitely 'in transition'. Last season was a major shock to the system as PL turned his back on the high-rolling experienced players he inherited: consider, for a minute, what a gamble that was, and yet he managed to just about pull it off.
This season, he is continuing that process, with just as much of a gamble about it: 7 new players in, of whom we'd really only heard about 1 (he who now warms the rehab couch). As per last year, some of these purchases look a bit dud, so we are still very much in the work-in-progress stage.
When he has offloaded the final remnants of the GHou / TSM eras - Bent, Ireland, Given, N'Zog and Hutton - he will have more flexibility in signings. The massive question for me is: does he recognise those areas of the squad that require significant investment in talent and experience?
Until he invests in these critical signings we won;t know whether the transition has moved us into a competitive situation or an also-ran position in the Premiership.
That's transition.
Good OP, by the way, TV.
I just don't think we know yet. We've done better in comparable games. That's great. It's just that we haven't had many of the comparable games against the sides we were beating at the back end of last season. So the negative way of looking at it is that to actually be better than last season we need to mirror those results and win against all those sorts of sides.
I think we just need to wait and see.
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I prefer to compare with the tail end of last season where it appeared we were moving forward and looked a really threatening attacking unit. So far this season our attacking play has been largely poor. Teams have worked out how to keep us quiet. Gabby and especially Weimann are struggling. Benteke hasn't been at his best even when he's not been injured.
Again, we seemed to find a way that suited us last season. Lambert hasn't really kept that going because it only seemed to work with the line up he eventually adopted last term. Sylla can't get a look in now. Westwood's dire second season form hasn't helped either, as he's supposed to be the playmaker.
So at the moment we seem to be in that situation we were for much of last season, where Lambert is unsure what his best side and formation is. We've taken a step back again. We're not as bad as what he inherited and our defence looks more solid.
I also think that Lamberts initial notion that we will be a side who attacks first and thinks of defending second is disappearing somewhat. This kind of ideal where we'd expect to be winning games 3-2 or losing them 3-2. I think perhaps he's realised you can't set yourself up like that at this level. You don't set up just trying to score more than the opposition. Stopping them from scoring is also important. So we have worked hard to solidify the defence somewhat. I'd expect a few more clean sheets over the season two. Vlaar has settled. Clark has vastly improved. Bacuna looks good. I like Tony Moon. He's certainly an improvement on Bennett, even despite some positional deficiencies.
Defensively we have made progress.
Offensively I think we've regressed since the tail end of last season. That's in part to poor form from key players like Westwood and Lowton who helped keep the ball better and make things happen. It's also down to this continued use of Weimann as a right sided forward. He did okay last season but he was filling a gap. It now seems to be that he's seem as a wide forward now but it's not his game. He's not a brilliant dribbler, and his touch is poor so long term he can't play that and it's effecting him. In addition he's also having a terrible time in front of goal. He blows at least one good chance a game. Had he taken them all he'd be up their with Sturridge in the scoring charts and we'd probably be in the top 6, but he's not. He needs a spell out the side.
But our attack has to improve a hell of a lot. We could say we had chances yesterday but we didn't create nearly enough. If you have no one clinical in the side (Tekkey is still off the boil and isn't his normal deadly self) then you can't rely on 2-3 chances a game. Right now we average just UNDER 3 shots on target a game. 3. That's awful. I don't buy that we were unlucky against Everton, or Liverpool for example. We didn't create nearly enough for games at home. Those results were fully deserved. They took their chances and kept us quiet. Solid, professional away performances. No complaints at all. The fact is if you don't hit the target your chances of scoring at 00.001% (unless you get a blind linesman like the odd phantom goal we've seen in the past couple of years). Again this has to improve so it means buying quality in midfield and also working on adding a bit more consideration and composure to our play. Not shifting from 0-100mph and hoping for the best. We're unsightly for 90% of the time playing at full pelt. Occasionally a move comes off but only occasionally. You can't play at full whack all the time. Sometimes you've got to slow it down and measure what you're doing. Honestly sometimes when we play we look like sugar charged kids in a playground. I half expect a couple of our lads to just start windmilling and having a schoolboy scrap. All too often it looks like thoughtless, mindless running and manipulation of the football seems like a distant thought.
It took Lambert a long time to find a plan which worked. That he's again looking for another one is a worry.
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i stood there yesterday and all i could think of was this scene from the simpsons:
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3809984/simpsons-soccer-gif-o.gif)
wish i hadn't brought tickets for fulham. that'll be another stinker.
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Without checking properly, i think we have more points from these fixtures than we did last season, which is a sign of progress, the defense seems to be slightly improved, but its the home form and the inability to break teams down which is still worrying.
I have full faith in PL, he's no mug and won't have been happy with recent performances, even though he won't shout it from the roof tops. Just wish he would have spent that £7 million on an attacking midfielder.
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Supertom, you're contradicting yourself a little bit here. In one breath you say that had Andi scored the golden chances he has had this season we'd be in the top 6 and then in the next you're saying the reason we're midtable is that we don't create enough chances.
Does anyone have a source for these chance statistics? I keep seeing references on here to us not having enough chances but I can't say I've seen them anywhere else. Also, only analysing simplistic measures of on/off target you can end up drawing the wrong conclusions (Benteke's header yesterday which beat the keeper but came back off the bar - ie off target - was a much better chance than a crap trickler that runs through to the keeper but is on target - likewise, Andi's through on goal chance when Morrison pulled him down was a better chance than Jo Cole's angled shot which Guzan saved).
The football analysts talk about the quality of chances, rather than them being on or off target. I have absolutely nothing to back this up other than watching every home game and the highlights of away matches on MOTD but I'd suggest we have a greater number of high quality chances than the majority of teams.
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Supertom, you're contradicting yourself a little bit here. In one breath you say that had Andi scored the golden chances he has had this season we'd be in the top 6 and then in the next you're saying the reason we're midtable is that we don't create enough chances.
Does anyone have a source for these chance statistics? I keep seeing references on here to us not having enough chances but I can't say I've seen them anywhere else. Also, only analysing simplistic measures of on/off target you can end up drawing the wrong conclusions (Benteke's header yesterday which beat the keeper but came back off the bar - ie off target - was a much better chance than a crap trickler that runs through to the keeper but is on target - likewise, Andi's through on goal chance when Morrison pulled him down was a better chance than Jo Cole's angled shot which Guzan saved).
The football analysts talk about the quality of chances, rather than them being on or off target. I have absolutely nothing to back this up other than watching every home game and the highlights of away matches on MOTD but I'd suggest we have a greater number of high quality chances than the majority of teams.
That's not really a contradiction that was merely playing the IF game. I appreciate that it only takes one chance to win a football game of course, but you better your chances of scoring by creating more chances. If we start averaging over 5 shots ON target instead of just under 3, then we'll more than likely score more.
My point on Andy is that he's not scoring. He's fluffing his lines. He's really struggling but he's still playing. Now Lambert needs to address this. He's shown he's not frightened of dropping players, as Lowton and Westwood can testify. I also think it's for Weimanns benefit too. He needs to sit things out. Watch the games from the sidelines and just get himself champing at the bit to come back at full force.
As for stats sources, you need only use google, or whichever match report of choice, but we do average between 2-3 shots on target. We got 2 shots on target yesterday for example. And I agree to an extent your comparison about Tekkeys chance against the post compared to a Heskey style daisy cutter that goes straight at the keeper, but if you miss the target you won't score. We're not creating enough clear cut opportunities, nor hitting the target enough when we do. That's not based on guessing or inventing stats, that's based on fact. Watching the games.
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Good post TV. Its a very good analysis of what is happening at Villa Park.
I do find myself on the football forum less and less and stick to off topic as I struggle to read through so many posts which are written after a loss or a draw which are "sack for the manager" or "If this was TSM or hell would break out" last night I saw something along the lines of if we have not improved by Christmas get rid of him.
The manager has had a huge task to undertake in removing the old regime with their huge wages as well as trying to adopt a completely different way of playing. I think part of the problem is we finished so strong last year some fans thought we had become a top 10 club (even higher) during that period. If we would have had some luck against Chelsea and Everton we would be level with Man Utd.
Its early days yet and there are improvements in some parts of the field and maybe a little less in other areas. However quite a few new faces have come in and they need to adjust to this league and the players around them. I'm quite surprised our goals have dried up but that will change I'm sure.
I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.
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I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.
How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
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That's not really a contradiction that was merely playing the IF game. I appreciate that it only takes one chance to win a football game of course, but you better your chances of scoring by creating more chances. If we start averaging over 5 shots ON target instead of just under 3, then we'll more than likely score more.
My point on Andy is that he's not scoring. He's fluffing his lines. He's really struggling but he's still playing. Now Lambert needs to address this. He's shown he's not frightened of dropping players, as Lowton and Westwood can testify. I also think it's for Weimanns benefit too. He needs to sit things out. Watch the games from the sidelines and just get himself champing at the bit to come back at full force.
Scoring goals is part ability, part form, and part confidence. Andi's got the ability - he's shown it in the past. He's obviously off form as he'd have scored more this season if he was on form. But if you drop him now what does that do to his confidence? He's still getting the chances - sooner or later they will start going in.
Aaron Ramsey was getting absolutely slaughtered by Arsenal fans not so long ago. Look at him now. Last night on MOTD they asked him what had changed to mean he was suddenly scoring all these goals - his response, confidence.
Maybe it's because I've seen this all before that I can have more patience with the players and the manager but tinkering with everything, whether that's the players, the formation, the manager, whatever, isn't the way to bring about consistency.
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I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.
How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
Its not 18 months though.
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I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.
How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
I'm not one his most ardent supporters but even I'd give him more than 2 seasons. I know this comparison gets rolled out more often than it probably should but Moyes got 10 years at Everton. He certainly didn't fix things in his first two years. While he won nothing, over the course of those years he built a very solid and deep squad. Somebody mentioned on the match thread yesterday about Martinez and the job he was doing. His starting point was so much different to Lambert's and significantly better. And in that time Moyes was at Everton he made numerous bad purchases in amongst his various good ones. And in that time Everton spent many first half of seasons in the bottom half, and on occasion in the bottom three.
I know the football has been poor at times but it's much more organised and resolute. What we need to see improve is the quality of our passing and ball retention and start to take the chances we have created. Amd ironically Everton last week was a perfect example of how not taking chances at the PL seperates teams. We're struggling in an area we were good at last season while improving in an area we were terrible at.
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That's not really a contradiction that was merely playing the IF game. I appreciate that it only takes one chance to win a football game of course, but you better your chances of scoring by creating more chances. If we start averaging over 5 shots ON target instead of just under 3, then we'll more than likely score more.
My point on Andy is that he's not scoring. He's fluffing his lines. He's really struggling but he's still playing. Now Lambert needs to address this. He's shown he's not frightened of dropping players, as Lowton and Westwood can testify. I also think it's for Weimanns benefit too. He needs to sit things out. Watch the games from the sidelines and just get himself champing at the bit to come back at full force.
Scoring goals is part ability, part form, and part confidence. Andi's got the ability - he's shown it in the past. He's obviously off form as he'd have scored more this season if he was on form. But if you drop him now what does that do to his confidence? He's still getting the chances - sooner or later they will start going in.
Aaron Ramsey was getting absolutely slaughtered by Arsenal fans not so long ago. Look at him now. Last night on MOTD they asked him what had changed to mean he was suddenly scoring all these goals - his response, confidence.
Maybe it's because I've seen this all before that I can have more patience with the players and the manager but tinkering with everything, whether that's the players, the formation, the manager, whatever, isn't the way to bring about consistency.
I think the difference with Ramsey is that because Wenger will always rotate his squad, Ramsey would tend to get rested here and there. Weimann is playing every week at the moment. I think there's sometimes a benefit to sitting out of a game. It gives you a chance to be outside looking in and it reminds you that you've got to hit certain levels to be out there on the pitch. I mean Tonev showed a lot of desire and really looked up for it in the last two games. He wasn't fantastic but he was raring to go and seemed to relish being out on the pitch. At the moment Andi doesn't seem to be enjoying it because he's struggling and I think he's a bit worn out too.
Again in part I don't think it's purely his lack of goals effecting his confidence, it's being played on the right. I actually thought he did okay yesterday and was unlucky with his two chances. Again, the Morrison thing, on another day we might have got that decision. Much like the City game, Weimann just looked more effective through the middle. If we give him a run in the middle, playing just of Benteke, I think he'll be all the better for it. He's not a wide player. He was filling a gap last season, but long term he's going to play through the middle. Not only that, he's likely to get more chances playing through the center. He gets a little lost on the right sometimes. Drifts out of games. That possibly effects his confidence even before getting and missing a chance will. So Lambo does need to make it easier on the lad. I'd honestly see him as a better successor as our main striker as Kozak or Helenius, when Benteke leaves, to be honest.
It's also not just Andy's confidence we should take into account. There's players waiting in the wings who probably aren't having a brilliant time on the bench.
That said given we have a break after Cardiff I would persist with Weimann for the next game. It's a good chance to put one away against a side who a struggling. I really thought he'd kick on after the Man City game but it didn't happen. He could do with scoring one off his arse or something. Ditto Gabby. He couldn't hit a barn door right now.
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I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.
How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
I'm not one his most ardent supporters but even I'd give him more than 2 seasons. I know this comparison gets rolled out more often than it probably should but Moyes got 10 years at Everton. He certainly didn't fix things in his first two years. While he won nothing, over the course of those years he built a very solid and deep squad. Somebody mentioned on the match thread yesterday about Martinez and the job he was doing. His starting point was so much different to Lambert's and significantly better. And in that time Moyes was at Everton he made numerous bad purchases in amongst his various good ones. And in that time Everton spent many first half of seasons in the bottom half, and on occasion in the bottom three.
I know the football has been poor at times but it's much more organised and resolute. What we need to see improve is the quality of our passing and ball retention and start to take the chances we have created. Amd ironically Everton last week was a perfect example of how not taking chances at the PL seperates teams. We're struggling in an area we were good at last season while improving in an area we were terrible at.
If we have another poor run like last xmas-Jan then his position would probably have to be seriously considered. That said, I don't expect anything close to that horrific again and our defence does appear to be on the right track now.
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If you look at results in 2013, post January we have been a comfortable mid table team, if 2014 has a big dip in form and we are involved in last day of the season shenanigans then we would have to review his position in the summer. But with our inexperienced young squad, and lack of transfer funds i cant really see who we would be able to attract to the club who would have superior abilities than Lambert.
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Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
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We've been in transition, alright.
In the last four years we've transitioned from being a good team to a bad one. ;)
In all seriousness, there is improvement.
PL got pelters for our dire defensive form last year and brought in a defensive coach. That to me illustrates he is big enough and honest enough to admit he doesn't have all the answers. What works at one club won't automatically carry over into another.
Many older managers take the viewpoint that "this has worked for me in the past, I'll stick to it." Karsa and Culverhouse have followed him to his last two clubs, but PL strikes me as ruthless enough to get shot of either if he doesn't get the type of player or style of play he's looking for. It won't (hopefully) just be a case of jobs for his mates, regardless of performance.
If there are concerns about our ball retention now, that's Culverhouse's remit. Of course, Lambert is ultimately responsible. But he seems to be the traditional manager (in some respects), someone who oversees the whole thing, rather than a hands on tracksuit manager/coach taking training drills.
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I think it's clear enough to see that the creative side of our team needs a lot of work and we need quality going forward.
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We've been in transition, alright.
In the last four years we've transitioned from being a good team to a bad one. ;)
In all seriousness, there is improvement.
PL got pelters for our dire defensive form last year and brought in a defensive coach. That to me illustrates he is big enough and honest enough to admit he doesn't have all the answers. What works at one club won't automatically carry over into another.
Many older managers take the viewpoint that "this has worked for me in the past, I'll stick to it." Karsa and Culverhouse have followed him to his last two clubs, but PL strikes me as ruthless enough to get shot of either if he doesn't get the type of player or style of play he's looking for. It won't (hopefully) just be a case of jobs for his mates, regardless of performance.
If there are concerns about our ball retention now, that's Culverhouse's remit. Of course, Lambert is ultimately responsible. But he seems to be the traditional manager (in some respects), someone who oversees the whole thing, rather than a hands on tracksuit manager/coach taking training drills.
I believe karsa is his brother in law but it's not a jobs for mates thing - they have been with him a long time and he clearly trusts them - can't see anyway he would get shot of either to be honest .
Any manager should have the total control of who his backroom staff are and I think lambert is happy with the set up .
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Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.
I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.
I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.
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Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.
I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.
I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.
Well said, it could be that grealish and Carruthers although lacking in experience may provide some flair and creativity that we are clearly lacking.
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I think direct "this season v last season against the same opponents" comparisons don't really tell you much - although I can see why people are interested in them.
I think you have to look at the wider picture to get a view of that. For example, I could imagine a situation whereby we'd played the first ten games of this season and done worse than last season against the same opponents, but there was sufficient (admittedly subjective) evidence that we'd started to play better football, despite worse results, and that would be more important to the way the club is moving as a whole than points on the board.
In fact, that was frequently the case last season, and is the main reason why so many of us stuck with Lambert despite runs of results that made McLeish's points return look decent - but we saw the change in the way we play, and made allowances for it.
What concerns me about much of this season so far is that that style of play we began to build up over last season is nowhere to be seen.
It is almost as if we have started to believe the press about how lethal we are on the counter attack at times. This has turned into a tendency to sit back and defend, whilst hitting speculative long balls in the hope that this will create a counter attack opportunity.
Last year we would hustle and chase and hunt the ball down when the opposition had it. In fact, we did that at Arsenal on the first game of this season, too, and look where it got us.
This season we have hardly ever done that. Not only that, but in a lot of games, we've looked like we've forgotten how to pass.
Yesterday is a good example. A point at West Ham is not bad. It isn't great, but it's not the sort of result that is ever going to get anyone sacked. I have no problems with that. We also defended quite well. I know West Ham are largely toothless, but we let them have the ball for most of the game yesterday and never really looked like we couldn't defend.
The downside was that our passing was atrocious. It would be a couple of passes at most, followed by a pointless, at best 50-50 ball. This was discussed on the post match thread, but the one time we really managed to put together a decent passing move, we almost scored.
That was the same against Man City. That first half, we were pretty much played off our own pitch. We got a great result, looking back, and the second half was much improved, but the very first time we managed to put together a passing move in that game, we scored from it.
There has been far too much of yesterday's performance this season, and I understand why people are getting annoyed about it.
Last season, we all seemed to accept that it was going to be very up and down, and was the start of a transition, and yes, we are still in a transition. The problem is, for transition to be an acceptable state, there has to be a general perception that things are moving in the right direction. What worries me is that we've not seen anything like enough of that this season.
Over the summer we didn't seem to buy players of a quality appreciably better than those we bought last season. Several players who did well last season are finding the second season much harder - Weimann, Westwood, Lowton, to name three. I don't really know what Lambert saw in our trophy signing, Kozak. I am not writing him off, but with him it is not so much a question of who we did sign, but who we didn't sign. Was Kozak really the priority? Confusing.
I think that the whole transition thing is also a matter of perception. There's a thin line between "hungry, up and coming young players, building something different to improve the club" and "buying young, hungry, cheap players to maintain our existence cheaply" (see Wigan, seasons gone), and I sense a growing feeling that, in terms of what our aims are, we're starting to be seen more as a more illustrious version of Wigan than the nascent Brummie Borussia Dortmund that some people started to see us as last year.
It is not the awful situation some seem to think it is, but I entirely understand why people worry about it, and I worry too.
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A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
But isn't that part of what TV was saying? - that we've done better than last season almost despite (i) other teams sussing us out and (ii) other teams having invested more aggressively
Yes I agree. My comment was that there is no point in comparing same team results as who knows for example when we play Sunderland it may not be 6-1 but a 0-0 this time!
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I think you've summed it up pretty well there Paulie. I don't think many are saying we're in a dire situation or anything, it's more a case of our progress has stalled and we seem to have forgotten how to attack.
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A very good post however the same team result comparisons are futile. After our good form from February onwards others teams have learned and counteract our tactics quite successfully. Time now for manager and players to kick on. If the players can not adapt than they are not good enough and if the manager can not do anything about it than he is not good enough. They require time to fix this.
But isn't that part of what TV was saying? - that we've done better than last season almost despite (i) other teams sussing us out and (ii) other teams having invested more aggressively
Yes I agree. My comment was that there is no point in comparing same team results as who knows for example when we play Sunderland it may not be 6-1 but a 0-0 this time!
Don't be so down affers - could be 8-1 ;)
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How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
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I read his current contract runs until the end of next season. I think his performance so far suggests he deserves at least that long. The conundrum for me is that I do not think it would be healthy for the club to have a manager going into the last 12 months of his contract, yet I'm not 100% convinced he deserves an extension just yet.
Would others offer him a new contract? If so, when?
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How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
He seems happy to leave contract talk aside right now and I agree- lets see where we are come may and then decide.
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Don't be so down affers - could be 8-1 ;)
I think you are wrong. With our recent clean sheet habit bedding in I can't see them getting 1!
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I'm still completely behind Lambert and still have faith in this plan. Its not going to happen overnight.
How long do you give him? Surely even his most ardent supporters have some kind of cut off point?
In my eyes we have made progress so he is doing a good job under extremely difficult circumstances. If we have still made even the slightest of improvement by the end of this season then great. How long? I would love to say a minimum of 4-5 years and see progress each year.
Football has changed so much of late, probably not for the better. Unless you have someone running the show who has a bottomless pit of money to throw around competing at the very top will not happen again.
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I guess a lot depends on what Randy's expectations for the club are ?
Has lamberts remit been to keep us in the premier league , in which case he has succeeded, or does randy feel he has given him the finances to comfortably finish in midtable in which case the jury is still out and we will need to see where we are in may.
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You're right eastie, how much cost cutting does it take for us to get back to an even keel, especially with the mammoth new T.V deal ?
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Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.
I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.
I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.
Well said, it could be that grealish and Carruthers although lacking in experience may provide some flair and creativity that we are clearly lacking.
Without being harsh on either, Carruthers was an unused sub and Grealish taken off at half time yday. Hardly demanding of a premier league start.
Would love it if Gardner could come back and be the strong, box to box, composed central midfielder we need. But I can't really see that happening this season, based on what we've seen thus far. I think Westwood can do better, but ultimately we need a better player in there than we have in the squad at the moment.
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When Carruthers played a cameo role a couple of years back he was direct , skillful and ran at the Liverpool defence with pace - impressed me with his confidence to take defenders on - I'm not sure why lambert didnt use him last season as he may have offered something going forward.
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If we're talking purely in terms of statistics and results, then we look to be improving and Lambert isn't doing badly at all. I certainly don't think there should be any questions over his job security at this stage. But looking beyond the numbers, the thing that's worrying me most is the style of play. We have a pretty settled formation now - a 4-5-1 evolving to a 4-3-3. And that's fine, it's a modern set-up and many of the best teams play that way. The problem is, whereas those other sides seek to dominate possession, by flooding the midfield and building from there, we very rarely control the centre of the pitch.
For some reason - possibly because of the Dortmund connection - I had expected Lambert to send his side out to get the ball down, keep it and play a controlled game. Whereas what we've ended up with looks much more like the sort of sitting back, soaking-up opposition pressure and going direct to the target man style of play that we saw under MON, and we all know the limitations of that approach. I'm not quite sure how we've ended up like that, because I still have a suspicion that Lambert is aiming for something a bit more 21st century, as evidenced by the performances at the back end of last season. Perhaps it's the manager's solution to for reducing the number of goals we concede, but for whatever reason, there seems to have been a deliberate decision to revert to a more agricultural style. I find that a bit dispiriting. I'd like to see a Villa side that makes an effort to play a more cultured game.
I'd love to think that's Lambert's conclusion too, but his decision to splash out 7 million quid on a back-up target man with limited technique and even more limited mobility suggests it probably isn't.
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It's only a thought, but I wonder if Lambert looked at our travails last season and our fixture list at the start, and thought 'I need to prioritise not having to play catch-up on points and goal difference again'?
Perhaps he's been a bit more safety first, defensive minded and cautious as a result. He did put out a pretty attacking team against Everton last week, and with better finishing we could well have won that game.
I'm concerned about the lack of goals of course. But our next 5 games are Cardiff (h), WBA (a), Sunderland (h), Saints (a), Fulham (a).
If I look at that relatively impartially, I'd fancy us to win 2-3 of those games, and get 1-2 points from Saints and Baggies. If the BBC predictor thing hadn't disappeared, I'd see where that's likely to take us. But we'd certainly be looking a bit healthier - probably top half?
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Changing the manager isn't an option for a number of reasons, continuity being the most important. But that doesn't mean Lambert is doing a really good job. Frankly, at the moment he's just about doing an adequate job.
If we're in transition at all, it's from a club that spent lots of money in pursuit of Europe to a club that spends just enough to stay in the division.
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Changing the manager isn't an option for a number of reasons, continuity being the most important. But that doesn't mean Lambert is doing a really good job. Frankly, at the moment he's just about doing an adequate job.
If we're in transition at all, it's from a club that spent lots of money in pursuit of Europe to a club that spends just enough to stay in the division.
I think you could argue given some of the contracts that remain on the books that we are still spending on wages like we are in Europe. For me, that is still part of the issue and something that we are in the midst of the transitioning out of.
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For some reason - possibly because of the Dortmund connection - I had expected Lambert to send his side out to get the ball down, keep it and play a controlled game. Whereas what we've ended up with looks much more like the sort of sitting back, soaking-up opposition pressure and going direct to the target man style of play that we saw under MON, and we all know the limitations of that approach. I'm not quite sure how we've ended up like that, because I still have a suspicion that Lambert is aiming for something a bit more 21st century, as evidenced by the performances at the back end of last season. Perhaps it's the manager's solution to for reducing the number of goals we concede, but for whatever reason, there seems to have been a deliberate decision to revert to a more agricultural style. I find that a bit dispiriting. I'd like to see a Villa side that makes an effort to play a more cultured game.
Nothing has changed my mind that Lambert, just like his young and hungry signings, is still learning the game. Tactically he really worries me. Playing 5 defenders and three defensive midfielders yesterday against a team that didn't have a striker on the pitch was beyond belief and can only go to show he had no belief in the ability of his signings.
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I think you could argue given some of the contracts that remain on the books that we are still spending on wages like we are in Europe. For me, that is still part of the issue and something that we are in the midst of the transitioning out of.
Yep, although there's nothing wrong with paying European-level salaries on the right players. Paying that money on feckless wasters like Dunne, Ireland and Beye was madness.
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Good original post, I think it is still too early to say, we are a couple of results from displaying green shoots and a few from looking like an extension of the last 2 seasons. We looked a very poor team yesterday.
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Re taking Weimann out of the firing line, I'm not sure we have a choice. Didn't he do his hammy yesterday? So he could be out for a few weeks.
Could be the best thing for him really. Takes pressure off him, gives him a spell out and it isn't the stigma of being dropped.
I'm a little disappointed we've let Albrighton go. We're not loaded with numbers right now and though he's struggled in recent years he's something of a senior statesman at the club (at only 23, soon to be 24). I think you can always rely on him to work hard for starters. He seemed bright in the league cup so it's a shame really. I think we could use him. Tonev and Helenius are taking their time to settle it seems.
I'm all for Alby going to get some game time and fitness, but I think we could be using him ourselves right now.
I'd also like to see 1-2 of our youngsters being brought into the squad. Johnson deserves a crack. Can he do any worse than Westy at the moment? Likewise I'd like Grealish to get a pop when he's back here and fit again. Carruthers could also provide a bit of flair for us. We can't really use the excuse that "these guys are too young to be thrown in" because our whole squad is young and inexperienced anyway. I actually think some of our local boys could settle in quicker than some of the foreign imports.
I like Weimann, I think he's a grafter who trying hard and i'm not sure why he's getting the brunt for our lack of goals. Benteke has had some much better chances to score including a penalty, and i'm trying to remember Gabby's last goal or assist.
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With the same chairman,manager and budget we got now were never going to be more than a team fighting relegation until we do eventually go down I'm afraid
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With the same chairman,manager and budget we got now were never going to be more than a team fighting relegation until we do eventually go down I'm afraid
What makes you say that?
It needs something dramatic to happen for any club to dislodge the top 6 because of their backing and support but why are we doomed to be fighting relegation? Don't agree and think we will gradually improve year on year as Everton did a while back unless we panic and turf the manager out.
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With the same chairman,manager and budget we got now were never going to be more than a team fighting relegation until we do eventually go down I'm afraid
Cheers for your optimism!
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I think direct "this season v last season against the same opponents" comparisons don't really tell you much - although I can see why people are interested in them.
I think you have to look at the wider picture to get a view of that. For example, I could imagine a situation whereby we'd played the first ten games of this season and done worse than last season against the same opponents, but there was sufficient (admittedly subjective) evidence that we'd started to play better football, despite worse results, and that would be more important to the way the club is moving as a whole than points on the board.
In fact, that was frequently the case last season, and is the main reason why so many of us stuck with Lambert despite runs of results that made McLeish's points return look decent - but we saw the change in the way we play, and made allowances for it.
What concerns me about much of this season so far is that that style of play we began to build up over last season is nowhere to be seen.
It is almost as if we have started to believe the press about how lethal we are on the counter attack at times. This has turned into a tendency to sit back and defend, whilst hitting speculative long balls in the hope that this will create a counter attack opportunity.
Last year we would hustle and chase and hunt the ball down when the opposition had it. In fact, we did that at Arsenal on the first game of this season, too, and look where it got us.
This season we have hardly ever done that. Not only that, but in a lot of games, we've looked like we've forgotten how to pass.
Yesterday is a good example. A point at West Ham is not bad. It isn't great, but it's not the sort of result that is ever going to get anyone sacked. I have no problems with that. We also defended quite well. I know West Ham are largely toothless, but we let them have the ball for most of the game yesterday and never really looked like we couldn't defend.
The downside was that our passing was atrocious. It would be a couple of passes at most, followed by a pointless, at best 50-50 ball. This was discussed on the post match thread, but the one time we really managed to put together a decent passing move, we almost scored.
That was the same against Man City. That first half, we were pretty much played off our own pitch. We got a great result, looking back, and the second half was much improved, but the very first time we managed to put together a passing move in that game, we scored from it.
There has been far too much of yesterday's performance this season, and I understand why people are getting annoyed about it.
Last season, we all seemed to accept that it was going to be very up and down, and was the start of a transition, and yes, we are still in a transition. The problem is, for transition to be an acceptable state, there has to be a general perception that things are moving in the right direction. What worries me is that we've not seen anything like enough of that this season.
Over the summer we didn't seem to buy players of a quality appreciably better than those we bought last season. Several players who did well last season are finding the second season much harder - Weimann, Westwood, Lowton, to name three. I don't really know what Lambert saw in our trophy signing, Kozak. I am not writing him off, but with him it is not so much a question of who we did sign, but who we didn't sign. Was Kozak really the priority? Confusing.
I think that the whole transition thing is also a matter of perception. There's a thin line between "hungry, up and coming young players, building something different to improve the club" and "buying young, hungry, cheap players to maintain our existence cheaply" (see Wigan, seasons gone), and I sense a growing feeling that, in terms of what our aims are, we're starting to be seen more as a more illustrious version of Wigan than the nascent Brummie Borussia Dortmund that some people started to see us as last year.
It is not the awful situation some seem to think it is, but I entirely understand why people worry about it, and I worry too.
Bang on post for me.
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We're the new Wigan. Good manager, no money, a couple of players anyone else would look at twice. Our only ambition is to stay up and we are completely reliant on three teams being worse than us. Our luck will run out like theirs. The difference is, they're a tin pot team in a rugby league town with twenty fans, we're Aston Villa.
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Over the summer we didn't seem to buy players of a quality appreciably better than those we bought last season. Several players who did well last season are finding the second season much harder - Weimann, Westwood, Lowton, to name three. I don't really know what Lambert saw in our trophy signing, Kozak. I am not writing him off, but with him it is not so much a question of who we did sign, but who we didn't sign. Was Kozak really the priority? Confusing.
I think that the whole transition thing is also a matter of perception. There's a thin line between "hungry, up and coming young players, building something different to improve the club" and "buying young, hungry, cheap players to maintain our existence cheaply" (see Wigan, seasons gone), and I sense a growing feeling that, in terms of what our aims are, we're starting to be seen more as a more illustrious version of Wigan than the nascent Brummie Borussia Dortmund that some people started to see us as last year.
It is not the awful situation some seem to think it is, but I entirely understand why people worry about it, and I worry too.
There's some sense in what you're saying - Benteke is also possibly suffering second-season syndrome as well as the three you mention. For me, this season Lambert has continued the gamble of last: 7 new players in, of whom we'd really only heard about 1. As per last year, some of these purchases look a bit dud, so we are still very much in the work-in-progress stage. Kozak is - absolutely - a bizarre addition, given other obvious priorities.
When he has offloaded the final remnants of the GHou / TSM eras - Bent, Ireland, Given, N'Zog and Hutton - he will have more flexibility in signings. The massive question for me is: does he recognise which parts of the squad require significant investment in talent and experience? - and can he find the alternative strategies that are required off the bench - wide players being an obvious deficit at the moment?
We are still struggling to get top-quality full backs: on the left Bennett does not seem to be currently an option (is he injured?) and Luna is fallible; on the right, Bacuna has been preferred to the apparently below-par Lowton (I'd like to see both of these players down our right side). The FB positions are critical to the style that Lambert is trying to play ... but we also need more quality through the middle.
His ability will be tested over the next three months (including the Jan window).
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The massive question for me is: does he recognise which parts of the squad require significant investment in talent and experience? - and can he find the alternative strategies that are required off the bench - wide players being an obvious deficit at the moment?
His ability will be tested over the next three months (including the Jan window).
I think he recognises that a Number 10 of some description is required. And he appears to have allocated a chunk of money for this player. In he last few windows he's bid for Dempsey (bid accepted), Coutinho (persistent rumour) and enquired about the Japanese guy.
Understandably he's trying to squeeze all the potential he can get out of Westwood, KEA, Sylla, Delph before he decides whether to buy a CM.
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Good thread. Yeah I think this is transition. I like the fact we feel more solid this season. I do not like the fact that we play some poor stuff right now.
I expect Lambert to continue to change the way we play and the formations we choose. That is who he is. He did it at Norwich and with us last season, he will continue to do it.
When I see us play I still see a squad whose best times are ahead of them. That to me is progress.
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It comes to something when i'm wishing for Nzogbia to come back quickly.
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I agree in n'zogbia. But his number 36 shirt number suggest he's now in the bomb squad
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Good thread. Yeah I think this is transition. I like the fact we feel more solid this season. I do not like the fact that we play some poor stuff right now.
I expect Lambert to continue to change the way we play and the formations we choose. That is who he is. He did it at Norwich and with us last season, he will continue to do it.
When I see us play I still see a squad whose best times are ahead of them. That to me is progress.
Well done sir, on the money with just three sentences. That's my kind of post.
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@MatKendrick: Lambert: You’ve got to see the bigger picture rather than the small view. They’ve progressed a lot further and quicker than I thought.”
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There's some sense in what you're saying - Benteke is also possibly suffering second-season syndrome as well as the three you mention.
Not sure about that - he's got five goals in nine appearances.
People forget he's been injured, I think.
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re improved defending, didn't we appoint a new defence coach in the close season?
I might have imagined that, though.
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re improved defending, didn't we appoint a new defence coach in the close season?
I might have imagined that, though.
We did. New fitness coach as well.
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Agree with a lot of posters, it's hyped as transition when in effect it's just plain average. Players, management and club. We are spending money to stand still at the moment, just above relegation while the likes of West Brom and Southampton skate ahead to the nirvana of a top ten position.
With regards to January I think we could do worse than bringing Ashley Young back on loan. Sad to see how far his star has fallen. Maybe a spell back at B6 would get him going again. Was probably England's best player in the lead up to the Euros but his failure there and subsequent injuries have seen him drop off the radar altogether. You would think 433 or 4312 would suit him perfectly and a big man up front to attack his crosses to the back post.
It's all about good footballers for me and our squad is brimful of some incredibly poor players for a few seasons now. Some on big wages and a hangover from previous regimes but most are Lambert signings.
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Agree with a lot of posters, it's hyped as transition when in effect it's just plain average. Players, management and club. We are spending money to stand still at the moment, just above relegation while the likes of West Brom and Southampton skate ahead to the nirvana of a top ten position.
With regards to January I think we could do worse than bringing Ashley Young back on loan. Sad to see how far his star has fallen. Maybe a spell back at B6 would get him going again. Was probably England's best player in the lead up to the Euros but his failure there and subsequent injuries have seen him drop off the radar altogether. You would think 433 or 4312 would suit him perfectly and a big man up front to attack his crosses to the back post.
It's all about good footballers for me and our squad is brimful of some incredibly poor players for a few seasons now. Some on big wages and a hangover from previous regimes but most are Lambert signings.
Honestly I'd take Southamptons position at the moment. We'd all be getting nosebleeds mate! ;)
But seriously, Ash Young on loan could be a good shout. I'm not sure where he'll be in the pecking order under Moyes in the long run. Utd fans hoped to see more of Zaha but didn't really. There's also the young Belgian lad breaking through too.
It could be worth a punt. Ash is above his ability level at a club like Utd to be honest. I think he suits being a big fish in a small pond as he was here. Get him back playing week in, week out, get him to cut the dickhead diving and he could be great for us in the run in.
If not, then perhaps Zaha could also be an option, or possibly raiding Arsenal for someone on loan or permanent. I wonder if they'd consider letting Arteta go in the next year, or Rosicky on loan could provide us with some guile.
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The transition that sticks out for me is that we've gone from being a complete mess, to a team that has started to form some sort of identity. One that was overly generous and chaotic defensively to one that is now bedding in and not giving away stupid goals. If the intemediary is that we lose some of natural flair and creativity then that's not the worse place to be. Defensively sound sides rarely go down or struggle long term. The next phase will be to keep the defensive discipline and add some flair and invention by upgrading one or two of our current players. I think the direction is the correct one even if the getting there bit might be tough to take at times.
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I went away on holiday for a week and have been ill since I came back. Have struggled to raise an interest in Villa's fortunes in that time. It doesn't help that we aren't scoring any goals.
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Are we in transition - yes of course. Straightforward economics meant we couldn't carry on with the same transfer policy as under MON. Will it be successful - who knows?
On the downside there are simply not goal scorers in the team. The midfield is totally dysfunctional - as a unit they are poor defensively and contribute minimally going forward.
I'm optimistic though. We are doing OK despite our three main attacking threats suffering injury or loss of form. They will 'click' again soon.
Sort out the midfield (starting in January?) and positively resolve the Benteke situation (keep him or do a mini Bale) and next season could be promising.
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re improved defending, didn't we appoint a new defence coach in the close season?
I might have imagined that, though.
Three clean sheets away from home in a row. Paul Lambert's Aston Villa have not conceded an away goal since August. Whoydafunkit?
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Agree with a lot of posters, it's hyped as transition when in effect it's just plain average. Players, management and club. We are spending money to stand still at the moment, just above relegation while the likes of West Brom and Southampton skate ahead to the nirvana of a top ten position.
Surely if you think Albion are skating ahead of us (whilst being a massive TWO points ahead of us) towards a top ten place, that's actually vindication of doing things cheaply, as their transfer policy is one of the tightest in the league?
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The proof will be in the pudding of next summers transfers.
If we go down the route of buying another 6/7 youngsters around the £2.5m mark then they can stick the transition period up their arse because it will just be more roulette purchases.
Benteke will be gone £25m+ in the bank
Ireland will be off the wage bill.
Bent will be off the wage bill.
Benteke will need a serious replacement and a couple of quality midfield additions would be required. There is no reason why we couldn't/shouldn't spend the Benteke transfer fee on them.
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The proof will be in the pudding of next summers transfers.
If we go down the route of buying another 6/7 youngsters around the £2.5m mark then they can stick the transition period up their arse because it will just be more roulette purchases.
Benteke will be gone £25m+ in the bank
Ireland will be off the wage bill.
Bent will be off the wage bill.
Benteke will need a serious replacement and a couple of quality midfield additions would be required. There is no reason why we couldn't/shouldn't spend the Benteke transfer fee on them.
That's the way I see it too.
I also hope that some of the benteke money is spent this January on a decent midfielder (and possibly a winger/number 10). Any new signing will have 6 months to improve and get used to the premier league before he becomes the main man next season.
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I think a lot of people are dismissing the fact that we still have the youngest squad in the league.
We do have a gap in attacking midfield, that's clear to anyone, but other than that the biggest issue for a lot of the players is that they're still learning the game at this level. We've asked a lot of youngsters to make a big step up, you can't expect them all to do that the the rate Benteke has.
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It comes to something when i'm wishing for Nzogbia to come back quickly.
Barring an injury catastrafuck , I don't think we'll be seeing CnZ play in a Villa shirt again.
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Catastrafuck!
What a great word!
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I think a lot of people are dismissing the fact that we still have the youngest squad in the league.
We do have a gap in attacking midfield, that's clear to anyone, but other than that the biggest issue for a lot of the players is that they're still learning the game at this level. We've asked a lot of youngsters to make a big step up, you can't expect them all to do that the the rate Benteke has.
Clark has made a huge leap this season having been pretty much written off last year. Unfortunately (in a way) Bacuna's good form has just replaced Lowton from last year so the team over all hasn't cahnged much.
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I think a lot of people are dismissing the fact that we still have the youngest squad in the league.
We do have a gap in attacking midfield, that's clear to anyone, but other than that the biggest issue for a lot of the players is that they're still learning the game at this level. We've asked a lot of youngsters to make a big step up, you can't expect them all to do that the the rate Benteke has.
Clark has made a huge leap this season having been pretty much written off last year. Unfortunately (in a way) Bacuna's good form has just replaced Lowton from last year so the team over all hasn't cahnged much.
Vlaar seems to have bucked up his ideas quite a bit in comparison to last season.
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I think a lot of people are dismissing the fact that we still have the youngest squad in the league.
We do have a gap in attacking midfield, that's clear to anyone, but other than that the biggest issue for a lot of the players is that they're still learning the game at this level. We've asked a lot of youngsters to make a big step up, you can't expect them all to do that the the rate Benteke has.
No, you can't, but isn't that the point people are making - that it's dangerous to expect so many young, inexperienced kids to step up so much in such a short period of time? And naive to think that enough of them would even have it in them?
Having the youngest squad in the league accounts for a lot of inconsistency, but raises the question, wouldn't we be better off if we didn't have such a young, inexperienced squad? It's an explanation for circumstances, but not much of an excuse.
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I think a lot of people are dismissing the fact that we still have the youngest squad in the league.
We do have a gap in attacking midfield, that's clear to anyone, but other than that the biggest issue for a lot of the players is that they're still learning the game at this level. We've asked a lot of youngsters to make a big step up, you can't expect them all to do that the the rate Benteke has.
Clark has made a huge leap this season having been pretty much written off last year. Unfortunately (in a way) Bacuna's good form has just replaced Lowton from last year so the team over all hasn't cahnged much.
Vlaar seems to have bucked up his ideas quite a bit in comparison to last season.
Vlaar has been much better this season.
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Vlaar is 100% better this season. Our Whole defence is much better this season. It is work in progress and it seems to be going well.
We don't have the cash to sort out every problem we have in one go, but we are on the way to being a quality team. Just keep the faith.
UTV.
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The proof will be in the pudding of next summers transfers.
If we go down the route of buying another 6/7 youngsters around the £2.5m mark then they can stick the transition period up their arse because it will just be more roulette purchases.
Benteke will be gone £25m+ in the bank
Ireland will be off the wage bill.
Bent will be off the wage bill.
Benteke will need a serious replacement and a couple of quality midfield additions would be required. There is no reason why we couldn't/shouldn't spend the Benteke transfer fee on them.
That's the way I see it too.
I also hope that some of the benteke money is spent this January on a decent midfielder (and possibly a winger/number 10). Any new signing will have 6 months to improve and get used to the premier league before he becomes the main man next season.
First week of November and people are already talking about "next season." Surely that says it all....
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I think a lot of people are dismissing the fact that we still have the youngest squad in the league.
We do have a gap in attacking midfield, that's clear to anyone, but other than that the biggest issue for a lot of the players is that they're still learning the game at this level. We've asked a lot of youngsters to make a big step up, you can't expect them all to do that the the rate Benteke has.
No, you can't, but isn't that the point people are making - that it's dangerous to expect so many young, inexperienced kids to step up so much in such a short period of time? And naive to think that enough of them would even have it in them?
Having the youngest squad in the league accounts for a lot of inconsistency, but raises the question, wouldn't we be better off if we didn't have such a young, inexperienced squad? It's an explanation for circumstances, but not much of an excuse.
it's too soon to know if we need an excuse rather than an explanation though. If we were playing like we are with a team with an average in the late 20s you'd be worried, but with an average age of 23 it could be that we simply improve for the next 3-4 years as a natural growth of the squad, and we might end up achieving more than we would've with a similar spend on 27-28 year olds.
You can't call something a turning point until you've actually completed the turn, so this might be a transition period for the club or it might be a continuation of the last 3 years, we won't know until we see where we get, but I'm happier to be in this situation with a very young squad than being here with an older squad like we were 2 years ago.
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Thought Big Ron was our best player on Saturday.
And the Saturday before. (I'm trying to wipe out where he was for the first goal - trying to cover for one of those kids, probably.)
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It comes to something when i'm wishing for Nzogbia to come back quickly.
Barring an injury catastrafuck , I don't think we'll be seeing CnZ play in a Villa shirt again.
catastrafuck is the word of year. I am so going to use that from now on. Nice one Kev ........
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Copyright the sweary Malcolm Tucker in The Thick of It. Can't take credit for that.
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Agree with a lot of posters, it's hyped as transition when in effect it's just plain average. Players, management and club. We are spending money to stand still at the moment, just above relegation while the likes of West Brom and Southampton skate ahead to the nirvana of a top ten position.
Surely if you think Albion are skating ahead of us (whilst being a massive TWO points ahead of us) towards a top ten place, that's actually vindication of doing things cheaply, as their transfer policy is one of the tightest in the league?
WBA are a "mid table" side neither threatening relegation nor european qualification.
2011/12 - WBA 10th 47 pts, AV 16th 38 pts
2012/13 - WBA 8th 49 pts, AV 15th 41 points
WBA are a smaller club in the greater scheme of things, average attendance prob 10k less than hours. But they are a lot better managed than us, one of the first English clubs to adopt the Sporting Director European model and investing in coaches rather than handing blank chequebooks to the MON's of this world. I think Paul Lambert is crying out for a similar role to be on the Villa board to help him develop as a coach too.
WBA are a vindication of doing things properly rather than cheaply. Not sure what they saw in Anichebe mind. We just seem to be doing things cheaply. Ive no problem at all with bringing in younger players in (lazy signings like Heskey, Harewood, Shorey used do my head in) but that needs to be balanced by bringing in proven quality when available like Gareth Barry this summer.
Goes without saying that AVFC being properly managed at board and player level would piss all over WBA and others. We should be up there with Everton even with our current budget trying to get into Europe. We have been drifting along with the bottom feeders for a few years now and its not looking any better this time around. I dont think thats acceptable for our club.
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[/quote]
Vlaar seems to have bucked up his ideas quite a bit in comparison to last season.
[/quote]
Vlaar has been much better this season.
[/quote]
I think Vlaar probably didn't know what he was letting himself in for last season. The first season in a new country, playing in a new (and arguably much harder) league, against players who he had probably never faced before. And to be landed with the job of being nursemaid not only to a back four of inexperienced youngsters but also team captain as well. He must have gone home at night and wished he had stayed in Holland!
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I cannot agree with most of that.
There is a very clear plan to turn us around from struggling to stay up on the sub-40 points when Lambert took over, amidst of a budgetary crisis that was inherited over four years of overspend, added to two years of the club pulling in different directions. There aren't many managers in the league who have had to take over and turn around a club under those circumstances.
The focus is clearly on a lot of scouting and homework to identify a certain type of player to fit the system but on the pitch and in terms of the ethos that Lambert is fostering. This is being done while slowly shedding the dead weight that has dragged the club down. By the end of the season there is likely to be an extra £6,240,000 freed up in the wage budget if you estimate Ireland and Bent to be on circa £60,000m p/w.
You have chosen to ignore every sign which tells you the club has moved forward on last season, which in turn moved on from the one before (albeit by smaller margins) then you may well come to the conclusion, erroneously in my opinion, that we're with the bottom feeders forever. I think we're well on target to finish solidly in mid-table between 12-8th positions.
I also don't think you've explained away the contradiction Paulie highlighted, merely reinforced it. The Albion being a smaller club doesn't come into the equation. They have been spending within their means and reaping limited rewards because of this to enable them to finish mid-table. That's what we're looking at doing in the short term. Our bigger size means if we follow this plan for long enough, the rewards may well be greater.
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Vlaar has definitely bucked up - last year I genuinely thought he was the worst regular Villa centre half I had ever seen but he has matched up this year, shame Okore hasn't been around to make it a four centre half competition. Still wouldn't have him as captain but he doesn't terrify me anymore.
I've been proper down in the dumps about the club since the Everton game, before that I was looking at a mid table finish but I now find myself looking downwards - the reason, Gareth Barry. I make no apologies that he was always my favourite player because to a lesser degree than God he played part of the game in his head - for me in the Everton game he was exceptional and for the life of me I cannot comprehend that we didn't want that type of experience back in our squad, a centre midfield of Delph & Barry in comparison to KEA (chasing shadows), Westwood (2nd season syndrome?), Sylla (unproven?) - chalk and cheese! If I was Gary Gardner I would be seeing getting fit as an opportunity, normally being out for as long as he has would see him dropping further down the queue but the others just haven't stepped up.
I come back to a point I made earlier in this thread, we still lack a captain on the field.
Actually I think we might see an improvement with Weimman out for a couple of weeks, he is another who hasn't pulled up trees this year but he seems to be largely undroppable....an extra body in midfield might even see us get 50/50 in possession.....
cmon Villa, win on Saturday and get me looking back upwards :-)
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I cannot agree with most of that.
There is a very clear plan to turn us around from struggling to stay up on the sub-40 points when Lambert took over, amidst of a budgetary crisis that was inherited over four years of overspend, added to two years of the club pulling in different directions. There aren't many managers in the league who have had to take over and turn around a club under those circumstances.
The focus is clearly on a lot of scouting and homework to identify a certain type of player to fit the system but on the pitch and in terms of the ethos that Lambert is fostering. This is being done while slowly shedding the dead weight that has dragged the club down. By the end of the season there is likely to be an extra £6,240,000 freed up in the wage budget if you estimate Ireland and Bent to be on circa £60,000m p/w.
You have chosen to ignore every sign which tells you the club has moved forward on last season, which in turn moved on from the one before (albeit by smaller margins) then you may well come to the conclusion, erroneously in my opinion, that we're with the bottom feeders forever. I think we're well on target to finish solidly in mid-table between 12-8th positions.
I also don't think you've explained away the contradiction Paulie highlighted, merely reinforced it. The Albion being a smaller club doesn't come into the equation. They have been spending within their means and reaping limited rewards because of this to enable them to finish mid-table. That's what we're looking at doing in the short term. Our bigger size means if we follow this plan for long enough, the rewards may well be greater.
are you sure there is a very clear plan? the club seemed to want to go in a different direction after MON left alright but still decided to buy Ireland, Given, Makoun, Bent, Nzogbia, Hutton afterwards. With the mantra being for top players we would still pay decent money but while still trying to bring down the average age of the squad and the wage bill. The Lambert era seems to have been one to continue this without making big money signings. Yet when Dunne, Collins, Petrov, Warnock etc left the pay roll we are still not reinvesting that into top players. I dont think when Ireland and Bent's contracts run out that we are going to put that money to use elsewhere in the playing squad, maybe I'm wrong but I dont see it.
Sure Lambert clearly tries to identify players that can fit into what he wants to do. But how successful has this approach been either? Benteke sure is superb but that signing seems to be covering up a lot of very poor players he has brought in too.
I dont know how we have moved forward either, I thought we were heading in the right direction at the backend of last season but we are as bad as anything produced in the McLeish days at the moment. maybe thats an improvement from this time last year but that was the worst Villa side I can remember
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I think that since the sacking of McLiesh there has been a very clear transfer policy.
I used the Bent and Ireland wage as an indicate the severity of the problem. That is £6 million on two players who don't play for us anymore, £6 million despite the shedding of the likes of Heskey, Warnock, Collins etc over the previous summer.
I think you're assessment is incredibly critical if you believe Benteke to be the only signing to take have taken us forward. Some players have not been able to pick up their good form where they left it off last season, while others (such as Vlaar) have taken 12 months to bed in and get up to speed. I think in the case of the former, that is down to the age of the players and their lack of experience. You don't suddenly lose very obvious qualities over a summer.
I think your comparison with McLeish is just bizarre frankly and based on what? Two insipid attacking displays away from home where we drew a blank? Or two home games against much better teams who were vying for second at the weekend, the latter of which we should have beat and beaten comfortably?
We're a mid-table side. For every Arsenal or Chelsea performance, there will be a dogged Norwich and a poor West Ham.
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Agree with a lot of posters, it's hyped as transition when in effect it's just plain average. Players, management and club. We are spending money to stand still at the moment, just above relegation while the likes of West Brom and Southampton skate ahead to the nirvana of a top ten position.
Surely if you think Albion are skating ahead of us (whilst being a massive TWO points ahead of us) towards a top ten place, that's actually vindication of doing things cheaply, as their transfer policy is one of the tightest in the league?
WBA are a "mid table" side neither threatening relegation nor european qualification.
2011/12 - WBA 10th 47 pts, AV 16th 38 pts
2012/13 - WBA 8th 49 pts, AV 15th 41 points
WBA are a smaller club in the greater scheme of things, average attendance prob 10k less than hours. But they are a lot better managed than us, one of the first English clubs to adopt the Sporting Director European model and investing in coaches rather than handing blank chequebooks to the MON's of this world. I think Paul Lambert is crying out for a similar role to be on the Villa board to help him develop as a coach too.
WBA are a vindication of doing things properly rather than cheaply. Not sure what they saw in Anichebe mind. We just seem to be doing things cheaply. Ive no problem at all with bringing in younger players in (lazy signings like Heskey, Harewood, Shorey used do my head in) but that needs to be balanced by bringing in proven quality when available like Gareth Barry this summer.
Goes without saying that AVFC being properly managed at board and player level would piss
all over WBA and others. We should be up there with Everton even with our current budget trying to get into Europe. We have been drifting along with the bottom feeders for a few years now and its not looking any better this time around. I dont think thats acceptable for our club.
I still don't get it.
Albion spend carefully and have a tight transfer policy and wages structure, combined with tight management and a plan, and they're well managed.
Villa spend carefully, put in place a tight transfer policy and wages structure, combine it with tight management and a plan, and we're cheap?
I understand entirely the bit about how they're well managed (although not well enough managed to have avoided getting relegated very recently), and I too think there's a very fine line between building something based on young, cheap and homegrown players on one side and doing it on the cheap on the other, it just strikes me as not that valid a comparison.
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I cannot agree with most of that.
There is a very clear plan to turn us around from struggling to stay up on the sub-40 points when Lambert took over, amidst of a budgetary crisis that was inherited over four years of overspend, added to two years of the club pulling in different directions. There aren't many managers in the league who have had to take over and turn around a club under those circumstances.
The focus is clearly on a lot of scouting and homework to identify a certain type of player to fit the system but on the pitch and in terms of the ethos that Lambert is fostering. This is being done while slowly shedding the dead weight that has dragged the club down. By the end of the season there is likely to be an extra £6,240,000 freed up in the wage budget if you estimate Ireland and Bent to be on circa £60,000m p/w.
You have chosen to ignore every sign which tells you the club has moved forward on last season, which in turn moved on from the one before (albeit by smaller margins) then you may well come to the conclusion, erroneously in my opinion, that we're with the bottom feeders forever. I think we're well on target to finish solidly in mid-table between 12-8th positions.
I also don't think you've explained away the contradiction Paulie highlighted, merely reinforced it. The Albion being a smaller club doesn't come into the equation. They have been spending within their means and reaping limited rewards because of this to enable them to finish mid-table. That's what we're looking at doing in the short term. Our bigger size means if we follow this plan for long enough, the rewards may well be greater.
are you sure there is a very clear plan? the club seemed to want to go in a different direction after MON left alright but still decided to buy Ireland, Given, Makoun, Bent, Nzogbia, Hutton afterwards. With the mantra being for top players we would still pay decent money but while still trying to bring down the average age of the squad and the wage bill. The Lambert era seems to have been one to continue this without making big money signings. Yet when Dunne, Collins, Petrov, Warnock etc left the pay roll we are still not reinvesting that into top players. I dont think when Ireland and Bent's contracts run out that we are going to put that money to use elsewhere in the playing squad, maybe I'm wrong but I dont see it.
Sure Lambert clearly tries to identify players that can fit into what he wants to do. But how successful has this approach been either? Benteke sure is superb but that signing seems to be covering up a lot of very poor players he has brought in too.
I dont know how we have moved forward either, I thought we were heading in the right direction at the backend of last season but we are as bad as anything produced in the McLeish days at the moment. maybe thats an improvement from this time last year but that was the worst Villa side I can remember
You never had the pleasure of seeing Dave Pountney play then..
If it were not for the likes of Johnny McLeod, Mickey Wright and the ubiquitous Charlie Aitken, not forgetting Alan Deakin and John Sleeuwenhoek..life may have been different. Pountney was, possibly, the all-time worst and made all the worse cos my dad said he was replacement for Peter McParland whom dad watched from the early 50's along with danny Blanchflower..He never let me forget it! But I still hung on in there.
Agree that this team is taking on aspects of McLeish at the nadir of his reign.
Lambert can do it but has so long to play with the philosopher's stone and turn us into gold.
We need a Ray Graydon to put the ball in to connect with Benteke a la Andy Lochead!
We need someone to come out of the pack as a star of the future. It is Leandro Bacuna for me. Quality, wait and see.
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We need someone to come out of the pack as a star of the future. It is Leandro Bacuna for me. Quality, wait and see.
I agree, both on the concept and the choice of player, Bacuna has a good cross and an eye for a pass (as well as being quick, strong and having a good touch), if we can start getting him in the right areas of the field he can make things happen for us, I'd like to see him have a go in the gabby/weimann roles.
guzan
lowton vlaar clark luna
westwood
sylla delph
tonev benteke bacuna
certainly whilst gabby and weimann have knocks I'd like us to give it a go.
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Given, Bent, Hutton, Ireland and N'Zogbia who still represent the good part of £300,000 a week.
THAT is fucking terrifying
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For me the biggest difference vs last year is that although we're still annoyingly inconsistent, when it does go wrong it's not as spectacularly terrible this time.
The fact that we've got a near perfect storm up front with all our best players being in and out of the team or off form or both and we're still picking up points by not conceding feels like progress.
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If you look at it in terms of points/results, then we're clearly better this season. If you look at it in terms of how we're playing and which players have or haven't improved from last season, then that's more subjective.
But the project we've undertaken with Lambert was always going to be a long one. We're scouting and recruiting young players and trying to develop them. Some will be almost instant hits (Benteke), some will be more slow burners (Vlaar) and some will take backwards steps at times (Westwood). So it's hard to guage how well we're doing if you micro analyse it, as different aspects of our game and squad will be on different curves on the graph.
Viewing it overall, we've got a couple of more players I'm very happy with (Bacuna and Okore), results have improved and you can still see things where we can get better (Lowton/Westwood/Weimann rediscovering their best form, Helenius and/or Tonev having a greater impact).
There was a lot of talk about a 5 year plan when Randy first took over. However, when I look at Lambert's approach, then you can see how that could be a 5 year strategy and I'm looking forward to where it takes us.
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Q. Is this what transition looks like?
A. I hope so because if it's not then we are fookin fooked...
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Q. Is this what transition looks like?
A. I hope so because if it's not then we are fookin fooked...
Ha ha, that's pretty much spot on.
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we played better football in the last half of last season,
I had plenty of scraps on here defending some of our performances last season when we were playing well but the results weren't going our way,
so I cant be hypocritical now and say its all about the results, because our displays this season so far haven't been an improvement at all
yes I know we are better of points wise against the same opposition last year, and ive seen all the stats proving we are in better shape this season especially defensively, but as far as i'm concerned we arnt anything like as exciting to watch, or trying to play a passing game which I thought was Lamberts plan
last year we were posting about how we needed big centre halfs and defenders who could hurt people, now we want a 'no 10' type player who has taken over at the top of the wish list, we just got rid of one in Ireland, I know he was not much use but who are we going to get in ? Joe Cole, Taarabt, or some unkown youngster to take a risk on, its not easy
i'd like to see Lambert sticking with playing the passing game and looking to hold on to the ball more, i'm not to botherd about keeping clean sheets especially if its at the expense of us not scoring, I was really hopefull this season of kicking on and becoming an attractive footballing side to watch, but so far we have regressed, albeit with better results, just
I'm a bit disappointed I was hoping for better performances
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I've been hearing a lot of people saying like for like results are better this year so we must be improving
A loss is still a loss people ... claiming some improvement because we've still lost but not by some many is really scraping the barrel IMHO
An improvement would be turning a loss into something valuable like a point or 3 surely ?
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I've been hearing a lot of people saying like for like results are better this year so we must be improving
A loss is still a loss people ... claiming some improvement because we've still lost but not by some many is really scraping the barrel IMHO
An improvement would be turning a loss into something valuable like a point or 3 surely ?
This seasons defeat at Chelsea was the same as last seasons defeat at Chelsea?
How about losing 2-1 to Arsenal last season and beating them 3-1 this season. How about losing 1-0 to Man City last season and beating them 3-2 this season. How about actually keeping a clean sheet away at Norwich, while still winning the game. How about losing 1-0 at West Ham last season and getting a point this time around.
Are these improvements?
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5 year strategies are fine until someone comes in for your best player(s) after 18 months and you have to start again.
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I've been hearing a lot of people saying like for like results are better this year so we must be improving
A loss is still a loss people ... claiming some improvement because we've still lost but not by some many is really scraping the barrel IMHO
An improvement would be turning a loss into something valuable like a point or 3 surely ?
Uhm..............you do realise we have, don't you?
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The next 3 games will show us a lot about where we are - 7 points and we will be comfortably placed in the top 10 whereas 2 out of 9 and we will be hovering around the relegation zone .
We really need a decent run of results to build confidence as we did late last season.
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I've been hearing a lot of people saying like for like results are better this year so we must be improving
A loss is still a loss people ... claiming some improvement because we've still lost but not by some many is really scraping the barrel IMHO
An improvement would be turning a loss into something valuable like a point or 3 surely ?
If only we'd won games this season that we'd lost last time round.....
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5 year strategies are fine until someone comes in for your best player(s) after 18 months and you have to start again.
I think the sale of Benteke is now part of the strategy. I would expect more money to be spent next summer on a smaller group of players and for us to be better off for it.
That isn't me saying we planned to buy the best out and out centre forward in Europe, but it can work both ways.
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5 year strategies are fine until someone comes in for your best player(s) after 18 months and you have to start again.
Not if you re-invest the money well. Spurs losing Bale hasn't effected them, because they did this. We lost Young and Milner and got N'Zogbia and Ireland.
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5 year strategies are fine until someone comes in for your best player(s) after 18 months and you have to start again.
Unless you're daft you'll realise this is an inherent risk anyway and figure it into your strategy. It's about finding and devloping young players and also, potentially, their replacements. Hopefully with a nice profit in your back pocket.
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Good piece by Kendrick, M.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-comment-mat-kendrick-6271412
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I've been hearing a lot of people saying like for like results are better this year so we must be improving
A loss is still a loss people ... claiming some improvement because we've still lost but not by some many is really scraping the barrel IMHO
An improvement would be turning a loss into something valuable like a point or 3 surely ?
This seasons defeat at Chelsea was the same as last seasons defeat at Chelsea?
well it was a loss yes. obviously not by the same margin but then Chelsea weren't up to full speed either.
i mean, are we really starting to claim losses as progress just based on the number of goals conceded year on year in the same fixture (because if so i don't think that adds up to much when the table ends in May)?. by this new weird logic, Lambert was going backwards from Eck against Chelsea and so on and so on
we aren't progressing as a football side at all as far as i can see, its either 8 at the back and defend to death or lump it up front and hope for a goal on the counter
a midfield would be a good start to rectifying the problem
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I've been hearing a lot of people saying like for like results are better this year so we must be improving
A loss is still a loss people ... claiming some improvement because we've still lost but not by some many is really scraping the barrel IMHO
An improvement would be turning a loss into something valuable like a point or 3 surely ?
This seasons defeat at Chelsea was the same as last seasons defeat at Chelsea?
well it was a loss yes. obviously not by the same margin but then Chelsea weren't up to full speed either.
i mean, are we really starting to claim losses as progress just based on the number of goals conceded year on year in the same fixture (because if so i don't think that adds up to much when the table ends in May)?. by this new weird logic, Lambert was going backwards from Eck against Chelsea and so on and so on
This is rubbish though isn't it? Yes they're both defeats but anyone can see a deperately unlucky, referee assisted 2-1 defeat is completely different to an 8-0 trouncing. Chelsea weren't up to speed yet? It was the same stage of the season for both teams and their start to the season wasn't nearly as tough as ours. Of course next season if we lose 2-1 again then your point may be valid but at the minute it sounds a bit desperate.
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You could argue we were the better team against Chelsea. Well I thought so anyway.
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If you cannot see an improvement in being humiliated 8-0 and being cheated by Kevin Friend then I am not sure it’s a debate worth having if you’re so dogmatic.
But even if we ignore the above, how are the other points garnered this season over last explained away?
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I just had a look over at some other Villa forums to see whether we were being optimistic or pessimistic compared to other fans.
People are losing their shit! Look at some of the threads on vital villa, you'd think we'd just been relegated to league 1 the way some of them are going on. Is this representative of general opinion?
Me and most of my mates aren't happy with the way things have gone for the last few weeks, but I reckon we can all see enough signs to be cautiously optimistic (given time and the odd signing). What sort of views have you all encountered away from these forums? I want to know if im living in a delusional bubble.
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Good piece by Kendrick, M.
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-comment-mat-kendrick-6271412
Well put by Kendrick. Couldn't agree more.
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I just had a look over at some other Villa forums to see whether we were being optimistic or pessimistic compared to other fans.
People are losing their shit! Look at some of the threads on vital villa, you'd think we'd just been relegated to league 1 the way some of them are going on. Is this representative of general opinion?
Me and most of my mates aren't happy with the way things have gone for the last few weeks, but I reckon we can all see enough signs to be cautiously optimistic (given time and the odd signing). What sort of views have you all encountered away from these forums? I want to know if im living in a delusional bubble.
For me, and most of those I talk to away from H&V, the general feeling is there's improvement, but nothing to get overly excited about. Pretty much a 'wait and see' stance.
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If you cannot see an improvement in being humiliated 8-0 and being cheated by Kevin Friend then I am not sure it’s a debate worth having if you’re so dogmatic.
But even if we ignore the above, how are the other points garnered this season over last explained away?
Of course it's an improvement on an 8-0 loss in terms of the final result, but we still got nil points and Chelsea still got 3 points. So we've come back with exactly the same, NOTHING (so no improvement where it matters, the points tally). Ditto the Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle games. They are still resulted in the same nil points to us. So apologies but I don't get the logic.
The only time we'll know if there has been an improvement 'results wise' will be when the final table is there to see in May. You still don't get extra points for comparing season by season results to my limited knowledge.
But as a long standing supporter (first game Dec '82, 2-4 loss against Liverpool) i think i've got the same right to air an opinion as you or anyone else without being derided.
I can categorically stand with hand on heart and say i don't think we've improved one bit as a 'football side'. In fact if you're only as good as your last outing then we might as well pack for a long hard winter now. Because that performance on Saturday was as bad as i've seen for a long long time. I thought we were toothless and clueless at Upton Park last season (and we were) but this season was a whole new level of awfulness ... "but we got a point!"
Well that's alright then, break out the bunting and lets bake a cake
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If you cannot see an improvement in being humiliated 8-0 and being cheated by Kevin Friend then I am not sure it’s a debate worth having if you’re so dogmatic.
But even if we ignore the above, how are the other points garnered this season over last explained away?
Of course it's an improvement on an 8-0 loss in terms of the final result, but we still got nil points and Chelsea still got 3 points. So we've come back with exactly the same, NOTHING (so no improvement where it matters, the points tally). Ditto the Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle games. They are still resulted in the same nil points to us. So apologies but I don't get the logic.
It's the easiest thing in the world to just pick out defeats to suit the argument.
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If you cannot see an improvement in being humiliated 8-0 and being cheated by Kevin Friend then I am not sure it’s a debate worth having if you’re so dogmatic.
But even if we ignore the above, how are the other points garnered this season over last explained away?
Of course it's an improvement on an 8-0 loss in terms of the final result, but we still got nil points and Chelsea still got 3 points. So we've come back with exactly the same, NOTHING (so no improvement where it matters, the points tally). Ditto the Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle games. They are still resulted in the same nil points to us. So apologies but I don't get the logic.
The only time we'll know if there has been an improvement 'results wise' will be when the final table is there to see in May. You still don't get extra points for comparing season by season results to my limited knowledge.
But as a long standing supporter (first game Dec '82, 2-4 loss against Liverpool) i think i've got the same right to air an opinion as you or anyone else without being derided.
I can categorically stand with hand on heart and say i don't think we've improved one bit as a 'football side'. In fact if you're only as good as your last outing then we might as well pack for a long hard winter now. Because that performance on Saturday was as bad as i've seen for a long long time. I thought we were toothless and clueless at Upton Park last season (and we were) but this season was a whole new level of awfulness ... "but we got a point!"
Well that's alright then, break out the bunting and lets bake a cake
Can we put walnuts and raisins on top of it please ;)
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The only time we'll know if there has been an improvement 'results wise' will be when the final table is there to see in May. You still don't get extra points for comparing season by season results to my limited knowledge.
Does that not also work in reverse and losing this season where we lost last season shouldn't be viewed as a lack of improvement until May. Or are we just selecting games where we haven't got better result to prove the argument?
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I just had a look over at some other Villa forums to see whether we were being optimistic or pessimistic compared to other fans.
People are losing their shit! Look at some of the threads on vital villa, you'd think we'd just been relegated to league 1 the way some of them are going on. Is this representative of general opinion?
Me and most of my mates aren't happy with the way things have gone for the last few weeks, but I reckon we can all see enough signs to be cautiously optimistic (given time and the odd signing). What sort of views have you all encountered away from these forums? I want to know if im living in a delusional bubble.
Forums attract the hysterical, the dramatic and the downright miserable.
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The only time we'll know if there has been an improvement 'results wise' will be when the final table is there to see in May. You still don't get extra points for comparing season by season results to my limited knowledge.
Does that not also work in reverse and losing this season where we lost last season shouldn't be viewed as a lack of improvement until May. Or are we just selecting games where we haven't got better result to prove the argument?
Obviously the latter, as he's ignored the other improved results that have been pointed out.
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
Norwich?
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
Norwich?
Er, we won at Norwich the same as we did last season ?
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I am subverting your opinion, I am asking you to qualify it. I think it’s a nonsensical position to suggest this seasons performance was anything other than entirely improved in every facet at Stamford Bridge. After I left the ground and the anger subsided, I felt pleased about the performance. 9 times out of 10 Chelsea will beat you at Stamford Bridge, but the fact it was two events entirely out of anybody's control but the referee which decided the outcome was galling to say the least.
We were easily the better side. We should have been 2-1 up when Ivanovic was inexplicably left still on the field to score a winner two minutes later. Even then Andi should have bagged another and we should have been awarded the most blatant handball you will likely ever see.
That is looking at one narrow result. I will ask you again, how do you explain the lack of improvement on the games where we have bettered last season's results?
And while we're on about West Ham, the best move and best chance of the game fell to Benteke, who you would back to score those chances more often than not. I think the hyperbole is completely unnecessary and I am completely astounded by anybody who doesn't see the value in picking up a point away from home.
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
Norwich?
We beat Norwich last year
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
Norwich?
We beat Norwich last year
We conceded at Norwich last year. We have played three games away from home since August and not conceded. That is a vast improvement on last season.
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Where we've lost out this season as compared to the second half of last season (and isolated performances like home to Swansea and away to Newcastle) is at keeping the ball. We seem to have lost the ability to patiently build from the back that we did successfully a few times last season.
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
Norwich?
Er, we won at Norwich the same as we did last season ?
Yes we did. We also lost at West Ham last season and picked up a point this season. Just comparing results like.
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Arsenal
Hull (not that we have anything to compare that with)
Man City
Two very good three pointers and one dour draw.
Norwich?
We beat Norwich last year
We conceded at Norwich last year. We have played three games away from home since August and not conceded. That is a vast improvement on last season.
Depends on whether you believe 1-0 to be a better score than 2-1.
I prefer 2-1.
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We conceded at Norwich last year. We have played three games away from home since August and not conceded. That is a vast improvement on last season.
I think that's countered by the fact we've not scored in any of our last four matches.
I think it is a long way from the time to panic at the moment, and I too do not want to understate the win at Arsenal or against Man City, but I totally understand why people look at a lot of our performances and reflect that there's not much of a qualitative improvement even if there is a quantitative one (ie points v fixtures last year).
I too thought we were done by the ref at Chelsea and deserved a point at the very, very least, but I can also see how sooner or later the whole "did well against Liverpool", "looked decent against Everton", "improvement against Spurs compared to last year" thing is going to wear thin with people when we keep coming out of these matches without any points.
I thought Kendrick's article as quoted in this thread was very good.
People will stick behind him, but it is not an unbreakable bond, there needs to be something coming out of it.
It is easy to dismiss the McLeish comparisons because the club is in a different place these days, and the two managers have a different ethos, but watching us play at West Ham on Saturday, I thought we spent almost the entire match sitting back, defending and hoofing long, hopeful balls at Benteke.
A point at West Ham is not a terrible result, but it was a pretty grim display and a throwback to the sort of football that played such a large part in securing people's support for Lambert in the first place (ie "just don't have us playing like the last bloke did, and you'll start off with a decent block of support").
I will be with you when it comes to dismissing the wider Lambert = McLeish thing, because it is a lazy comparison that doesn't bear much examination, but I entirely understand why people will have seen that performance on Saturday and spotted some similarities, and it was far from the first time we've been like that this season.
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A point at West Ham is not a terrible result, but it was a pretty grim display and a throwback to the sort of football that played such a large part in securing people's support for Lambert in the first place (ie "just don't have us playing like the last bloke did, and you'll start off with a decent block of support").
I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well. The fact that we can now play poorly and not get a tonking is to the manager's credit, yet some, and I'm not saying you in particular, seem to be using it as a neagtive. And that simply baffles me.
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So we beat Arsenal and that means we're improving on last year. Applying that logic, does that means that Arsenal are worse than they were last year because they lost to us?
Should somebody tell them?
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Only if you care about Arsenal. I do not.
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Ok
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Seriously though, If we were talking about one isolated result in beating Arsenal, then that wouldn't be evidence of improvement. We've had 3 or four games out of 10 where we've done that, so it is. At least for me, anyway.
I'd hazard a guess that Arsenal have also picked up more points from corresponding games last season, despite us beating them, so have improved as you'd expect from league leaders.
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Only if you care about Arsenal. I do not.
Somebody should make a song to that.
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A mate of mine said to me at the start of the season 'I can't see anyone murdering us this season' and apart from Spurs in the cup, he's been right so far. We do look a lot solider. All the defenders have improved on last season. It's just the home form holding us back.
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We conceded at Norwich last year
JHC, well we scored two their last season, so i assume that means it's also a massive downturn on last season ?
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I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well.
So
a) you don't think Lambert purposefly sent us out against West Ham with basically an 8 man defence against a team with no recognized striker
b) but if McLeish had done exactly the same you'd have claimed it was intentional
that's some odd conclusions to my mind
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A mate of mine said to me at the start of the season 'I can't see anyone murdering us this season' and apart from Spurs in the cup, he's been right so far. We do look a lot solider. All the defenders have improved on last season. It's just the home form holding us back.
This is correct , defensively we look better , midfield Delph apart we look poor and the forward line is basically benteke .
Last season in our good spell Weimann and gabby were scoring goals too and we looked potent , this season both have been poor in the main, add to that Westwood and Lowton both struggling for form .
Vlaar and Clark look much better this season so its swings and roundabouts - we have improved but I would say not vastly as some may suggest - as I said earlier the next 3 games will be huge either giving us a solid top 10 base on which to build confidence and progress , or if they go against us we could be in another scrap towards the bottom- it's too soon yet to make any conclusive judgement.
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I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well.
a) you don't think Lambert purposefly sent us out against West Ham with basically an 8 man defence against a team with no recognized striker
We were also playing against a team who were very likely to pack the midfield and could afford to throw two or three of them into the box, which they did. If Benteke puts his two chances away, the so called 8 man defence wouldn't have been mentioned.
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I'd say that there's been a slight improvement, but that we are becoming quite a boring team.
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I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well.
So
a) you don't think Lambert purposefly sent us out against West Ham with basically an 8 man defence against a team with no recognized striker
b) but if McLeish had done exactly the same you'd have claimed it was intentional
that's some odd conclusions to my mind
It is, if you base it on those two games in isolation. If you look at the attacking intent we've mainly played with under Lambert and how McLeish has managed his entire career, then not so much.
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I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well.
So
a) you don't think Lambert purposefly sent us out against West Ham with basically an 8 man defence against a team with no recognized striker
b) but if McLeish had done exactly the same you'd have claimed it was intentional
that's some odd conclusions to my mind
I think McLeish did intentional defend with as many as possible. Wasn't 8, more likely 9 thinking about games like spurs at home.
The first 30 minutes of the last home game showed there was not much wrong with us apart from taking our chances and I fully expect us to win this weekend and start a bit of a run. Bringing in players with no premier league experience is always likely to mean we start slowly and gradually improve as players get used to the pace and skill level, expecting the likes of Tonev and Bacuna to go up a gear any time now.
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A point at West Ham is not a terrible result, but it was a pretty grim display and a throwback to the sort of football that played such a large part in securing people's support for Lambert in the first place (ie "just don't have us playing like the last bloke did, and you'll start off with a decent block of support").
I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well. The fact that we can now play poorly and not get a tonking is to the manager's credit, yet some, and I'm not saying you in particular, seem to be using it as a neagtive. And that simply baffles me.
I think the people who say that would counter with the suggestion that the fact that we're playing poorly so often is the major problem.
I think the McLeish problem was that was what he does. The results may have improved but the quality wouldn't have.
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I think the difference is that under McLeish they we sent out to play that way. With Lambert, it's more of a case of just not playing very well.
a) you don't think Lambert purposefly sent us out against West Ham with basically an 8 man defence against a team with no recognized striker
We were also playing against a team who were very likely to pack the midfield and could afford to throw two or three of them into the box, which they did. If Benteke puts his two chances away, the so called 8 man defence wouldn't have been mentioned.
As i said earlier, it's of interest that the closest we came to scoring in that game was the exact moment when we first put together some decent possession. It's not a coincidence.
Had we sat back and launched long balls at Benteke (which is what we did most of that game) and played till we scored, we'd still be waiting now.
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We conceded at Norwich last year
JHC, well we scored two their last season, so i assume that means it's also a massive downturn on last season ?
I don't think so. An inability to keep a clean sheet put us under a lot of pressure last season, the fact we have managed to grind out results this time around, away from home at least, is pleasing.
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Last season we scored 2 and let in 1
This season we scored 1 and let in 0
Both outcomes, 3 points and a goal difference of +1
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The 2-1 is actually better, as goals scored count for more if you're level on goal difference.
What the point is of all this though, I don't know.
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Last season we scored 2 and let in 1
This season we scored 1 and let in 0
Both outcomes, 3 points and a goal difference of +1
Its not a big issue. I am merely making the point that I think going away from home and winning 1-0 is something to be pleased with, especially given our record until then for leaking goals in nigh on every game.
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Some will say the results are all-important, some will say it's the performance. I reckon most of us would like a bit of both. One's improved this season, the other seems to have slid.
Lambert's not under pressure, nobody's calling for his head, and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself. But it would be nice to see some signs that he remains committed to playing an attractive, attacking style, and not resorting to the sort of limited approach we've seen under previous managers (and I'm thinking more of O'Neill than McLeish).
However, someone pointed out earlier that he bid for that young Japanese lad, and if you think about it, that is quite reassuring. He's known to be a horses for courses manager, so I suspect he's being pragmatic for the moment and trying to build some confidence in the defence. Which is fair enough.
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Some will say the results are all-important, some will say it's the performance. I reckon most of us would like a bit of both. One's improved this season, the other seems to have slid.
Lambert's not under pressure, nobody's calling for his head, and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself. But it would be nice to see some signs that he remains committed to playing an attractive, attacking style, and not resorting to the sort of limited approach we've seen under previous managers (and I'm thinking more of O'Neill than McLeish).
However, someone pointed out earlier that he bid for that young Japanese lad, and if you think about it, that is quite reassuring. He's known to be a horses for courses manager, so I suspect he's being pragmatic for the moment and trying to build some confidence in the defence. Which is fair enough.
Keeping us in the division will not be an achievement in my book - I believe with the money at his disposal since he arrived that we should be looking to finish top 12 at least.
We are Aston Villa not hull or wigan.
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Some will say the results are all-important, some will say it's the performance. I reckon most of us would like a bit of both. One's improved this season, the other seems to have slid.
Lambert's not under pressure, nobody's calling for his head, and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself. But it would be nice to see some signs that he remains committed to playing an attractive, attacking style, and not resorting to the sort of limited approach we've seen under previous managers (and I'm thinking more of O'Neill than McLeish).
However, someone pointed out earlier that he bid for that young Japanese lad, and if you think about it, that is quite reassuring. He's known to be a horses for courses manager, so I suspect he's being pragmatic for the moment and trying to build some confidence in the defence. Which is fair enough.
Keeping us in the division will not be an achievement in my book - I believe with the money at his disposal since he arrived that we should be looking to finish top 12 at least.
We are Aston Villa not hull or wigan.
He probably meant keep us in the division without the shenanigans of last season like having to rely on Arsenal and Swansea to beat Wigan.
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Some will say the results are all-important, some will say it's the performance. I reckon most of us would like a bit of both. One's improved this season, the other seems to have slid.
Lambert's not under pressure, nobody's calling for his head, and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself. But it would be nice to see some signs that he remains committed to playing an attractive, attacking style, and not resorting to the sort of limited approach we've seen under previous managers (and I'm thinking more of O'Neill than McLeish).
However, someone pointed out earlier that he bid for that young Japanese lad, and if you think about it, that is quite reassuring. He's known to be a horses for courses manager, so I suspect he's being pragmatic for the moment and trying to build some confidence in the defence. Which is fair enough.
Keeping us in the division will not be an achievement in my book - I believe with the money at his disposal since he arrived that we should be looking to finish top 12 at least.
We are Aston Villa not hull or wigan.
He probably meant keep us in the division without the shenanigans of last season like having to rely on Arsenal and Swansea to beat Wigan.
Maybe , but I would hope and expect to be closer to the top 10 than the bottom 3 come may.
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Last season we scored 2 and let in 1
This season we scored 1 and let in 0
Both outcomes, 3 points and a goal difference of +1
Its not a big issue. I am merely making the point that I think going away from home and winning 1-0 is something to be pleased with, especially given our record until then for leaking goals in nigh on every game.
In all honesty you're wasting your time typing here, anyone who can ignore the fact that we've taken 6 points against 2 of the best sides in Europe compared to no points in those games last year and are mid table despite a very difficult start to the season has clearly got such a firmly set opinion that it's best to just leave them to it and move on.
We have had 2-3 disappointing games this season and the attack hasn't quite clicked yet but it's pretty obvious that there is more to come and the evidence of the last 18months is that we're not going to have to get used to performances like West Ham so i don't really understand why so many people are so eager to start saying we're in a relegation battle again and we're playing as badly as under TSM. The other issue with this is that you often see comments about how "it's my opinion and I have the right to state it" but the same people are always very quick to talk down anyone who suggests things are actually going quite well, you can't have it both ways I'm afraid.
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and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself
I sincerely hope you're joking?
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and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself
I sincerely hope you're joking?
would being safely midtable with 5-6 games to go not count as progress then? That's the reality of what STM said and it rightly has to be considered an improvement, regardless of anything else really.
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I would be fairly happy with a points tally of 50 or more points this season , which should see us around the top 10.
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But it would be nice to see some signs that he remains committed to playing an attractive, attacking style, and not resorting to the sort of limited approach we've seen under previous managers (and I'm thinking more of O'Neill than McLeish).
Surely our first half performance against Everton was a clear sign of that?
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From the outset i always felt that Lambert would transform us into another Norwich full of hard working players but lacking in any real flair or class and i haven't seen anything yet to suggest otherwise.
He has got the balance of the squad completely wrong with too much youth and not enough experienced quality and thats the main reason why we've struggled throughout his short tenure with us.
Yes he has had limited funding but why spend part of that limited funding on yet another striker when we had other conspicuous weaknesses within the first team such as midfield. Kozak certainly isn't a clone of Benteke so you cannot really say that he is Benteke's understudy.
In total seven strikers on our books if you include loanees Bent and Fonz and it is that poor allocation of funding that might see yet another Villa transitional period fail.
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Good points well made.
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From the outset i always felt that Lambert would transform us into another Norwich full of hard working players but lacking in any real flair or class and i haven't seen anything yet to suggest otherwise.
He has got the balance of the squad completely wrong with too much youth and not enough experienced quality and thats the main reason why we've struggled throughout his short tenure with us.
Yes he has had limited funding but why spend part of that limited funding on yet another striker when we had other conspicuous weaknesses within the first team such as midfield. Kozak certainly isn't a clone of Benteke so you cannot really say that he is Benteke's understudy.
In total seven strikers on our books if you include loanees Bent and Fonz and it is that poor allocation of funding that might see yet another Villa transitional period fail.
Norwich pissed two divisions and stayed up with ease with a squad of players who'd never played in the league.
Seriously, how can you look at that and say that is the limit of what he'd achieve with us?
The rest of it, well, he needed cover Benteke and the man he wanted became available. He probably needs a bit more time but so lots of players. People go on like it's every last penny we have, but what do they know? Rock all.
I'd bet my arse that there's more available, as long as it's the right player. And the man that will decide that will be Lambert.
He wont spend for the sake of it, and do you know what? It's about fucking time it happened, it's about time we had a manager that manages the club. We are no longer a place to take the piss, it will serve us well.
We are in transition, but we are better than we were. Our results have been better. We could have done with a bit more intensity in recent weeks but it will come.
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From the outset i always felt that Lambert would transform us into another Norwich full of hard working players but lacking in any real flair or class and i haven't seen anything yet to suggest otherwise.
He has got the balance of the squad completely wrong with too much youth and not enough experienced quality and thats the main reason why we've struggled throughout his short tenure with us.
Yes he has had limited funding but why spend part of that limited funding on yet another striker when we had other conspicuous weaknesses within the first team such as midfield. Kozak certainly isn't a clone of Benteke so you cannot really say that he is Benteke's understudy.
In total seven strikers on our books if you include loanees Bent and Fonz and it is that poor allocation of funding that might see yet another Villa transitional period fail.
Good post. Kozak is already looking a disastrous signing, leaving aside the apt 'makes Crouch look like Van Persie' comment but that money should certainly have been spent on improving the midfield.
Lambert is diabolical at substitutions and the addition of Kozak has made things worse. When in trouble he enacts the Bradford tactics.
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From the outset i always felt that Lambert would transform us into another Norwich full of hard working players but lacking in any real flair or class and i haven't seen anything yet to suggest otherwise.
He has got the balance of the squad completely wrong with too much youth and not enough experienced quality and thats the main reason why we've struggled throughout his short tenure with us.
Yes he has had limited funding but why spend part of that limited funding on yet another striker when we had other conspicuous weaknesses within the first team such as midfield. Kozak certainly isn't a clone of Benteke so you cannot really say that he is Benteke's understudy.
In total seven strikers on our books if you include loanees Bent and Fonz and it is that poor allocation of funding that might see yet another Villa transitional period fail.
Good post. Kozak is already looking a disastrous signing
No he isn't at all.
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'disastrous signing' - seriously? At this stage last season Benteke was missing sitters and looked no better than Kozak.
I'd probably go along with the idea money would have been better spent on the midfield, but time will tell. Once Luna's fit and with Lowton back in the side, don't be surprised to see Bacuna in there and that'll improve us.
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Kozak has only had 2 or 3 games so its way too soon to write him off - he is not a target man but I feel would be better alongside benteke in a two man strikeforce on occasions .
Granted the money may perhaps have been better spent on a creative midfielder but Kozak may well prove to be a very decent signing when playing to his strengths .
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I would be fairly happy with a points tally of 50 or more points this season , which should see us around the top 10.
I would snatch your hand of for 42..
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I would be fairly happy with a points tally of 50 or more points this season , which should see us around the top 10.
I would snatch your hand of for 42..
If that's your ambition then you can hardly complain about lambert - 42 points means a relegation battle and you would be delighted to finish on 42 - how disappointing :(
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and frankly if he keeps us in the division without all the panic attacks we all had last year, that will be enough of an achievement in itself
I sincerely hope you're joking?
Not at all. Last year we stayed up by the skin of our teeth, having to rely on other results to go our way. If, this year, we stay up comfortably - i.e. without the 'panic attacks' - then that would represent some improvement. I wouldn't be unhappy with that, provided there was an indication that the upward trend is going to be maintained over future seasons.
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I would be fairly happy with a points tally of 50 or more points this season , which should see us around the top 10.
I would snatch your hand of for 42..
If that's your ambition then you can hardly complain about lambert - 42 points means a relegation battle and you would be delighted to finish on 42 - how disappointing :(
We got 41 points last season and are currently 7 points better off compared to corresponding games. 50 points should be the target, IMO.
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I would be fairly happy with a points tally of 50 or more points this season , which should see us around the top 10.
I would snatch your hand of for 42..
If that's your ambition then you can hardly complain about lambert - 42 points means a relegation battle and you would be delighted to finish on 42 - how disappointing :(
We got 41 points last season and are currently 7 points better off compared to corresponding games. 50 points should be the target, IMO.
Yes that's what in looking for too, 50 points will see us around the top 10 and be a decent improvement .
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Kozak has only had 2 or 3 games so its way too soon to write him off - he is not a target man but I feel would be better alongside benteke in a two man strikeforce on occasions .
Granted the money may perhaps have been better spent on a creative midfielder but Kozak may well prove to be a very decent signing when playing to his strengths .
Who plays wide for us though in this formation? If we go 2 up front, we either need wingers or a trequarista. We have neither.
Thats part of the reason Bent didnt fit but replacing him with Kozak doesnt make any sense. Ive no idea where Helenius is supposed to fit in either. He seems equally as immobile as Kozak in my limited viewings of him thus far.
As TD said the squad is not balanced at all
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
Isn't that what we have scouts for?
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
Isn't that what we have scouts for?
Of course and those scouts found Benteke, Bacuna, Vlaar, Okore etc.
I'm just throwing it open to people on here to suggest names. It's what forum's are for.
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
Isn't that what we have scouts for?
Of course and those scouts found Benteke, Bacuna, Vlaar, Okore etc.
I'm just throwing it open to people on here to suggest names. It's what forum's are for.
I think Helenius may have been brought in with a view to developing into that sort of player. He seems to have an eye for a pass to play there, but is a striker dropping deeper as opposed to a midfielder getting further forward.
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
Isn't that what we have scouts for?
Indeed, but there's a point to be made here as well. We know he wanted both Kozak and an attacking midfielder for several months, meaning that the Kozak money was separate from the attacking midfielder money. However, we don't know how much was available for the attacking midfielder and, had we not bought Kozak, we don't know how much of a difference that extra £7m would have made. So, it's hard to 'name names' because obviously we don't know many great playmakers available for £7m and under, but if it were, say, £14m, then there's lots of players we could have bought.
I like Lambert - he's not my ideal manager, but there does seem to be a good reason behind most of his actions, and his mistakes tend to be miscalculations rather than blundering idiocies. That said, the issue of the playmaker does seem a miscalculation to me, and one which many people thought was one at the time, so this isn't just '20-20 hindsight'.
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Helenius is too tall and not agile enough for the number 10 role in my view , kiyotake is the one most seem to fancy in the role .
Lambert seems to have a top heavy squad with a plethora of strikers none of whom provide natural width , having spent £43m on players so far he has still not addressed the lack of creativity and width problems that seem to hold us back.
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
Isn't that what we have scouts for?
Of course and those scouts found Benteke, Bacuna, Vlaar, Okore etc.
I'm just throwing it open to people on here to suggest names. It's what forum's are for.
Benteke sure has proven to have been an exceptional find, Bacuna looks very solid at right back but perhaps was bought to play in midfield. I liked the look of Okore but he only played a few games. Jury is still out on Vlaar for me, he was awful last season.
Re midfielders that we could have gone for last summer within the 7m-10m budget mark.
Gareth Barry - suggested by probably 75% of Villa supporters.
Ashley Young
Tomas Rosicky
Jonathan De Guzman
Mathieu Valbuena
Alessandro Diamanti
Fabrizio Miccoli (34 but available on a free last summer)
Kevin De Bruyne
Ivan Rakitic
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What we know:
-Lambert does his homework on players (Westwood 30page dossier)
-He's willing to wait on players he thinks are right for us (first contact regarding Kozak was at the start of the season)
-He's enquired about attacking midfielders (Belhanda and Kiyotake were both reported as us having made enquiries, we confirmed we'd made contact regarding Kiyotake)
What we don't know:
-How much was asked for for the players we enquired about
-If there are other players we made enquires for
-How much money is available, is there a limit or is it a case of being sensible?
-If Lerner has ever said no to Lambert
All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
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Gareth Barry - suggested by probably 75% of Villa supporters.
Ashley Young
Tomas Rosicky
Jonathan De Guzman
Mathieu Valbuena
Alessandro Diamanti
Fabrizio Miccoli (34 but available on a free last summer)
Kevin De Bruyne
Ivan Rakitic
There's no way we'd have got De Bruyne, Rakitic or Valbuena for 7-10m. Miccoli is a centre-forward.
Diamanti seems to be better than in his West Ham days, but he looked to be the type who wouldn't adapt particularly well to the league. De Guzman wouldn't have been bad, but I don't see why he would have chosen to come to us over Swansea.
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
Isn't that what we have scouts for?
Of course and those scouts found Benteke, Bacuna, Vlaar, Okore etc.
I'm just throwing it open to people on here to suggest names. It's what forum's are for.
Benteke sure has proven to have been an exceptional find, Bacuna looks very solid at right back but perhaps was bought to play in midfield. I liked the look of Okore but he only played a few games. Jury is still out on Vlaar for me, he was awful last season.
Re midfielders that we could have gone for last summer within the 7m-10m budget mark.
Gareth Barry - suggested by probably 75% of Villa supporters.
Ashley Young
Tomas Rosicky
Jonathan De Guzman
Mathieu Valbuena
Alessandro Diamanti
Fabrizio Miccoli (34 but available on a free last summer)
Kevin De Bruyne
Ivan Rakitic
I think we have to get away from the idea that we're going to be back in the market for high earners with no sell on value should things go tits up.
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What we know:
-Lambert does his homework on players (Westwood 30page dossier)
-He's willing to wait on players he thinks are right for us (first contact regarding Kozak was at the start of the season)
-He's enquired about attacking midfielders (Belhanda and Kiyotake were both reported as us having made enquiries, we confirmed we'd made contact regarding Kiyotake)
What wWhat we know:
-Lambert does his homework on players (Westwood 30page dossier)
-He's willing to wait on players he thinks are right for us (first contact regarding Kozak was at the start of the season)
-He's enquired about attacking midfielders (Belhanda and Kiyotake were both reported as us having made enquiries, we confirmed we'd made contact regarding Kiyotake)
What we don't know:
-How much was asked for for the players we enquired about
-If there are other players we made enquires for
-How much money is available, is there a limit or is it a case of being sensible?
-If Lerner has ever said no to Lambert
All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
e don't know:
-How much was asked for for the players we enquired about
-If there are other players we made enquires for
-How much money is available, is there a limit or is it a case of being sensible?
-If Lerner has ever said no to Lambert
All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Pretty well sums up my take on it.
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Gareth Barry - suggested by probably 75% of Villa supporters.
Most Villa fans I saw the opinion of dreamed of getting James Milner back but thought Gareth Barry was past it.
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Gareth Barry isn't a number 10 anyway.
I think wages may be as big, if not bigger, issue than finding the right player for a fee of £7-10m.
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Whilst by and large I agree with what you're saying, why does the alternative to getting the player he really wants have to be signing the wrong player or panic buying?
I find it hard to believe he just has "target number 1" and no back up options for his transfer moves. In fact, I would imagine a few of the players we have bought over the last year or two will not have been his first choice - that's just the way it is, pretty much at every club.
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
to be fair , no one comes up with the names that Lambert signs .
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There's been a lot of talk about us needing a 'number 10' or that the Kozak money should have been better spent. There's an argument for both but not many people have come up with any names.
to be fair , no one comes up with the names that Lambert signs .
I don't really see why fans should feel like they have to come up with any names, to be honest. Likewise, I don't see why Lambert should pay much attention to what fans say when deciding his transfer targets (see above 75% of Villa fans wanted Barry back, for example).
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I think Helenius could do a job as a withdrawn striker - but I've only seen a few glimpses of the fellow.
I commented elsewhere that I think some of our problems this season - apart from new players bedding in, existing players having a second-season struggle and other teams knowing better what to expect from us - is that we just do not move the ball quickly enough: too many touches and not enough movement - of ball or receiver.
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exactly , their are so many names I would love to see at Villa , but Lambert will not be signing them , he will sign some one I will probably never heard of .
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Whilst by and large I agree with what you're saying, why does the alternative to getting the player he really wants have to be signing the wrong player or panic buying?
I find it hard to believe he just has "target number 1" and no back up options for his transfer moves. In fact, I would imagine a few of the players we have bought over the last year or two will not have been his first choice - that's just the way it is, pretty much at every club.
If true, the Belhanda and Kiyotake links would suggest there was more tha one player in the frame. It's very specialist and sought after position, so harder to sign than say a right back.
Ultimately, he was unable to bring one in and we're only speculating at the reasons why. But if he had a finite list and those all didn't happen for one reason or another, I'd rather him hold back and wait.
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Helenius is too tall and not agile enough for the number 10 role in my view , kiyotake is the one most seem to fancy in the role .
Lambert seems to have a top heavy squad with a plethora of strikers none of whom provide natural width , having spent £43m on players so far he has still not addressed the lack of creativity and width problems that seem to hold us back.
you think he would have learned after Bradford
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Whilst by and large I agree with what you're saying, why does the alternative to getting the player he really wants have to be signing the wrong player or panic buying?
I find it hard to believe he just has "target number 1" and no back up options for his transfer moves. In fact, I would imagine a few of the players we have bought over the last year or two will not have been his first choice - that's just the way it is, pretty much at every club.
I never suggested there was 1 target he was willing to wait for, I said no one {he wanted} was available for a fee he was willing to pay. We know of enquiries about at least 1, and almost certainly 2, what we don't know is if that's everyone we looked at or not. Part of getting a full appraisal of a player is that you need to commit a lot of time to it, if all of the attacking midfielders he was sure of were unavailable for a sensible fee we'd have either pay over the odds for one of them or we'd have signed someone he hadn't scouted to a level he was happy with, which is what I meant by the 'wrong player'. Signing a player you've not really scouted because you need to fill a gap is a panic buy, and generally they don't turn out all that well.
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The little bits I have seen of Helenius puts me in mind of the way Teddy Sheringham played. A sort of withdrawn striker who brought others into play as opposed to a midfielder who played an advanced role.
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Whilst by and large I agree with what you're saying, why does the alternative to getting the player he really wants have to be signing the wrong player or panic buying?
I find it hard to believe he just has "target number 1" and no back up options for his transfer moves. In fact, I would imagine a few of the players we have bought over the last year or two will not have been his first choice - that's just the way it is, pretty much at every club.
I never suggested there was 1 target he was willing to wait for, I said no one {he wanted} was available for a fee he was willing to pay. We know of enquiries about at least 1, and almost certainly 2, what we don't know is if that's everyone we looked at or not. Part of getting a full appraisal of a player is that you need to commit a lot of time to it, if all of the attacking midfielders he was sure of were unavailable for a sensible fee we'd have either pay over the odds for one of them or we'd have signed someone he hadn't scouted to a level he was happy with, which is what I meant by the 'wrong player'. Signing a player you've not really scouted because you need to fill a gap is a panic buy, and generally they don't turn out all that well.
Out of interest, who are the players we know he enquired about?
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The little bits I have seen of Helenius puts me in mind of the way Teddy Sheringham played. A sort of withdrawn striker who brought others into play as opposed to a midfielder who played an advanced role.
Although it's probably easier to look like Teddy Sheringham in the Danish league. Helenius looks to me like one signed for the future, it's a pretty big step up to make.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics. I just don't get it. It is not a defendable argument for me.
My next issue is Kozak, not the quality of the bloke (he's barely played to be fair), not the price of him, but just where does he fit in? Lambert is someone who doesn't really do wingers, and to me he looks like someone who needs wingers whipping balls in.
I'll counter that with I know fuck all and I hope Lambert is a visionary genius.
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It is far too early to judge Kozak, so I don't really get why people are calling him a poor signing.
I must admit, though, he looks far from mobile, so I wonder how he's going to fit in with our front line.
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It is far too early to judge Kozak, so I don't really get why people are calling him a poor signing.
I must admit, though, he looks far from mobile, so I wonder how he's going to fit in with our front line.
To play to his strengths would be a start - he is certainly no lone target man .
Probably more of a natural goalscorer than gabby or Weimann - I would give him a few games alongside benteke and see how they go , using bacuna and tonev to provide width .
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It is far too early to judge Kozak, so I don't really get why people are calling him a poor signing.
I must admit, though, he looks far from mobile, so I wonder how he's going to fit in with our front line.
I wouldn't say poor just yet, but he certainly was a baffling signing given how we were crying out for a midfielder and had already signed Helenius. I'm hoping Kozak settles quicker but what isn't helping him, or the whole side in general, is the lack of attacking width we're playing with. Width shouldn't be our only attacking avenue by any stretch of the imagination (as it pretty much was under O Neill) but we need to use as much of the pitch as possible. Closing off avenues is slightly backward thinking.
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It is far too early to judge Kozak, so I don't really get why people are calling him a poor signing.
I must admit, though, he looks far from mobile, so I wonder how he's going to fit in with our front line.
To play to his strengths would be a start - he is certainly no lone target man .
Probably more of a natural goalscorer than gabby or Weimann - I would give him a few games alongside benteke and see how they go , using bacuna and tonev to provide width .
Yeah, I thought Lowton did okay when he came back in at the weekend, perhaps time for him to be back in the side now. I'd like to see Bacuna further forward. The advantage too is that if Lowton overlaps, Bacuna can naturally cover without a problem.
Tonev looked lively against Everton and actually we looked poorer when he came off. A more consistent delivery and he'll be a good addition I think.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
Against Newcastle there was more than a whiff of the 'loads of strikers, that way' tactic.
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
And that is the benefit of taking a long term view of managerial appointments and building squads. While we're poorer for not having that number 10 type this season, it's ok, because Lambert will get one when the right one is available at the right price. That's ultimately the kind of sustainable, long term growth we should be aiming for.
The danger of that approach is that you can be patient about developing the squad, and about results, if you're secure in the knowledge that the right person is at the helm. I see enough in Lambert, based on his stint here as well as what he did at Norwich, to think he is the right person for the build. If he isn't, then we'll have pissed away a few years, but that's a risk I'm willing to take in exchange for sustainable, long term growth.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
Against Newcastle there was more than a whiff of the 'loads of strikers, that way' tactic.
No where near it for me, but fair enough it's a valid opinion.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
Against Newcastle there was more than a whiff of the 'loads of strikers, that way' tactic.
No where near it for me, but fair enough it's a valid opinion.
It ended up as it, I think. Against Bradford, that tactic went on for a good half-hour, whereas against Newcastle it was more like ten minutes. Still, it looked a little desperate and very unimaginative.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
Against Newcastle there was more than a whiff of the 'loads of strikers, that way' tactic.
No where near it for me, but fair enough it's a valid opinion.
It ended up as it, I think. Against Bradford, that tactic went on for a good half-hour, whereas against Newcastle it was more like ten minutes. Still, it looked a little desperate and very unimaginative.
That is how I would describe the proceeding 80 minutes of that game. We were dreadful that day.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
Against Newcastle there was more than a whiff of the 'loads of strikers, that way' tactic.
No where near it for me, but fair enough it's a valid opinion.
It ended up as it, I think. Against Bradford, that tactic went on for a good half-hour, whereas against Newcastle it was more like ten minutes. Still, it looked a little desperate and very unimaginative.
What was that study that someone mentioned the other day? Something like for all the huff and puff with tactics, the thing that leads to a goal scoring opportunity is chaos.
I think that was the idea for both games. We were just piss poor at executing it, unlike Dortmund last season who did it against Malaga and snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
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Tactics are, it's true, mainly defensive, or at least formations are. Bu if you're set up to create conditions of chaos for the oppo, then that's how chaos leads to goals. If you have chaos in attack, it's simple for defenders.
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Tactics are, it's true, mainly defensive, or at least formations are. Bu if you're set up to create conditions of chaos for the oppo, then that's how chaos leads to goals. If you have chaos in attack, it's simple for defenders.
This is the piece that supports what Liveprool and Newcastle have done well this season: maintaining an energetic and pressing game all over the pitch, and moving the ball quickly to mobile receivers. We are not doing enough pressing and do not move the ball swiftly enough (which means we get closed down and the ball ends up back with the two worst distributors in the team, Guzan and Baker).
As an aside, Petrov was a very good pass-and-move player: didn't dally on the ball much at all.
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Whilst by and large I agree with what you're saying, why does the alternative to getting the player he really wants have to be signing the wrong player or panic buying?
I find it hard to believe he just has "target number 1" and no back up options for his transfer moves. In fact, I would imagine a few of the players we have bought over the last year or two will not have been his first choice - that's just the way it is, pretty much at every club.
I never suggested there was 1 target he was willing to wait for, I said no one {he wanted} was available for a fee he was willing to pay. We know of enquiries about at least 1, and almost certainly 2, what we don't know is if that's everyone we looked at or not. Part of getting a full appraisal of a player is that you need to commit a lot of time to it, if all of the attacking midfielders he was sure of were unavailable for a sensible fee we'd have either pay over the odds for one of them or we'd have signed someone he hadn't scouted to a level he was happy with, which is what I meant by the 'wrong player'. Signing a player you've not really scouted because you need to fill a gap is a panic buy, and generally they don't turn out all that well.
Out of interest, who are the players we know he enquired about?
Kiyotake - for sure, an enquiry was confirmed by both FCN and us, but both sides insisted nothing more happened, I seem to remember the club replying exactly that in a one of the online fan forum things when someone posed the question with the name 'JulieB'.
The 2nd that's less sure is Belhanda with his club stating we'd enquired but we never confirmed or denied that one as far as I recall. There was a lot of noise around us enquiring for Coutinho as well before he went to Liverpool. Both of these could be a case of the agents stirring things up to generate a bit of interest which is why we can't say they're definite enquiries.
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It is far too early to judge Kozak, so I don't really get why people are calling him a poor signing.
I must admit, though, he looks far from mobile, so I wonder how he's going to fit in with our front line.
To play to his strengths would be a start - he is certainly no lone target man .
Probably more of a natural goalscorer than gabby or Weimann - I would give him a few games alongside benteke and see how they go , using bacuna and tonev to provide width .
Did Lazio play to his strenghts ? He didnt seem to score many if any in the league , and please people dont go on about his golas in the Europa cup , we all know its a micky mouse cup and even Wigan are doing ok in this .
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Goals don't count if I say so.
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Goals don't count if I say so.
I think some of his goals were also 'too close' as everyone knows you 'can't blast it from there'
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honda might be an option this January. I read his contract is soon to expire so would be cheap fee wise. I'd question his motivation however as most footballers seem to choose Russia for the cash rather than footballing reasons.
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Tactics are, it's true, mainly defensive, or at least formations are. Bu if you're set up to create conditions of chaos for the oppo, then that's how chaos leads to goals. If you have chaos in attack, it's simple for defenders.
This is the piece that supports what Liveprool and Newcastle have done well this season: maintaining an energetic and pressing game all over the pitch, and moving the ball quickly to mobile receivers. We are not doing enough pressing and do not move the ball swiftly enough (which means we get closed down and the ball ends up back with the two worst distributors in the team, Guzan and Baker).
As an aside, Petrov was a very good pass-and-move player: didn't dally on the ball much at all.
The best pressing team for me is southampton - and they are reaping the rewards.
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honda might be an option this January. I read his contract is soon to expire so would be cheap fee wise. I'd question his motivation however as most footballers seem to choose Russia for the cash rather than footballing reasons.
He's signed an agreement to go to AC Milan in January
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Tactics are, it's true, mainly defensive, or at least formations are. Bu if you're set up to create conditions of chaos for the oppo, then that's how chaos leads to goals. If you have chaos in attack, it's simple for defenders.
This is the piece that supports what Liveprool and Newcastle have done well this season: maintaining an energetic and pressing game all over the pitch, and moving the ball quickly to mobile receivers. We are not doing enough pressing and do not move the ball swiftly enough (which means we get closed down and the ball ends up back with the two worst distributors in the team, Guzan and Baker).
As an aside, Petrov was a very good pass-and-move player: didn't dally on the ball much at all.
The best pressing team for me is southampton - and they are reaping the rewards.
You may well be right, Eastie.
My point was that it's a combination of both the pressing game and the slick / fast movement of ball and players when in possession. The games I've seen this season have had too many Villa players wanting too many touches and too much time, without colleagues making the runs for them.
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Tactics are, it's true, mainly defensive, or at least formations are. Bu if you're set up to create conditions of chaos for the oppo, then that's how chaos leads to goals. If you have chaos in attack, it's simple for defenders.
This is the piece that supports what Liveprool and Newcastle have done well this season: maintaining an energetic and pressing game all over the pitch, and moving the ball quickly to mobile receivers. We are not doing enough pressing and do not move the ball swiftly enough (which means we get closed down and the ball ends up back with the two worst distributors in the team, Guzan and Baker).
As an aside, Petrov was a very good pass-and-move player: didn't dally on the ball much at all.
The best pressing team for me is southampton - and they are reaping the rewards.
You may well be right, Eastie.
My point was that it's a combination of both the pressing game and the slick / fast movement of ball and players when in possession. The games I've seen this season have had too many Villa players wanting too many touches and too much time, without colleagues making the runs for them.
I agree with that , movement is poor and gabby and Weimann are both examples of that as well as our midfield - only Delph has really impressed of our midfield and benteke of our forwards with their movement this season.
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I think a top half placing is realistic enough this season. We win on Saturday and there's a very good chance we'll be in the top 10 and that's after a poor run of form. If we do finish there that's progress so I'd say it would be worth giving him a 2 year extension on top of the year he would have left next summer.
I remain behind Lambert although like others the regression of the quality of football from the run in last season is concering me. We have a decent run of games now between now and the new year so hopefully with a win or two things will pick up. I would be very disappointed if we're involved in another relegation battle this season, we're better than that and the results so far indicate that.
The biggest test for Paul Lambert will be the day Benteke leaves. Things could regress very quickly if he doesn't get that right as we've seen with previous key players leaving. And no the answer isn't Kozak.
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All this leads me to believe that Lambert knows we need that player and actively wants to recruit for that position but no one was available for a fee he was happy to pay during the summer. If I'm right, whilst it is disappointing we didn't get the player we need, I'm happier with this approach than signing the wrong player or paying the wrong fee out of panic, very few panic buys work out well.
Whilst by and large I agree with what you're saying, why does the alternative to getting the player he really wants have to be signing the wrong player or panic buying?
I find it hard to believe he just has "target number 1" and no back up options for his transfer moves. In fact, I would imagine a few of the players we have bought over the last year or two will not have been his first choice - that's just the way it is, pretty much at every club.
I never suggested there was 1 target he was willing to wait for, I said no one {he wanted} was available for a fee he was willing to pay. We know of enquiries about at least 1, and almost certainly 2, what we don't know is if that's everyone we looked at or not. Part of getting a full appraisal of a player is that you need to commit a lot of time to it, if all of the attacking midfielders he was sure of were unavailable for a sensible fee we'd have either pay over the odds for one of them or we'd have signed someone he hadn't scouted to a level he was happy with, which is what I meant by the 'wrong player'. Signing a player you've not really scouted because you need to fill a gap is a panic buy, and generally they don't turn out all that well.
Out of interest, who are the players we know he enquired about?
Kiyotake - for sure, an enquiry was confirmed by both FCN and us, but both sides insisted nothing more happened, I seem to remember the club replying exactly that in a one of the online fan forum things when someone posed the question with the name 'JulieB'.
The 2nd that's less sure is Belhanda with his club stating we'd enquired but we never confirmed or denied that one as far as I recall. There was a lot of noise around us enquiring for Coutinho as well before he went to Liverpool. Both of these could be a case of the agents stirring things up to generate a bit of interest which is why we can't say they're definite enquiries.
I remember him saying we hadn't spoken about Belhanda - seem to recall Woodhall got it from the horse's mouth, too.
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My biggest issue with Lambert is the way he reverts to the 'Bradford' tactics.
Has that actually happened? Other than Bradford itself, of course.
Against Newcastle there was more than a whiff of the 'loads of strikers, that way' tactic.
No where near it for me, but fair enough it's a valid opinion.
It ended up as it, I think. Against Bradford, that tactic went on for a good half-hour, whereas against Newcastle it was more like ten minutes. Still, it looked a little desperate and very unimaginative.
The thing I didn't get about Bradford was *why* he did it when he did.
For a start, in the first half, it was absolutely men against boys, they could barely touch the ball - it looked like an exhibition match against a local league team, it was that easy for us.
Right up to when they scored, I remember sitting there thinking there was no way we weren't going to Wembley, we were so on top.
Even after they scored, all we had to do was keep our heads and do what we did for most of the first half, and we'd have come through.
I just don't understand why he panicked and went so stupidly gung ho.
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The concern is though during last season's run in we played some terrific football (the Sunderland game especially) and we all hoped that progression would continue but rather than even stagnating, our style of football has regressed to something that a previous manager would be proud of.
However, it's a good point to make concerning the timing of our improvement last season but it really doesn't explain or excuse why we haven't maintained that throughout the start of this season.
One of the reasons put forward for that lack of continuity is the quality of teams we've played so far having to play less expansive football to tighten our defence but we are already set up to be a counter attacking team so that argument holds little weight for me.
I also read many posters last season (before becoming a member) explaining our flirtation with relegation as a young team taking time to gel and that we would be much better this season when those young players had a Premiership season under their belts. That may still happen and its still a little premature to judge but that excitement we all felt in last season's run in that we might actually have the makings of a good team being built which plays entertaining football has certainly been dampened this season and thats why some of us are more vocal in our disappointment than others.
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The concern is though during last season's run in we played some terrific football (the Sunderland game especially) and we all hoped that progression would continue but rather than even stagnating, our style of football has regressed to something that a previous manager would be proud of.
However, it's a good point to make concerning the timing of our improvement last season but it really doesn't explain or excuse why we haven't maintained that throughout the start of this season.
One of the reasons put forward for that lack of continuity is the quality of teams we've played so far having to play less expansive football to tighten our defence but we are already set up to be a counter attacking team so that argument holds little weight for me.
I also read many posters last season (before becoming a member) explaining our flirtation with relegation as a young team taking time to gel and that we would be much better this season when those young players had a Premiership season under their belts. That may still happen and its still a little premature to judge but that excitement we all felt in last season's run in that we might actually have the makings of a good team being built which plays entertaining football has certainly been dampened this season and thats why some of us are more vocal in our disappointment than others.
Well put sir.
If we can win two out the next three and build a bit of confidence I'm hoping some of the better football we saw tail end of last season will come back. I certainly think that fitness problems and injuries haven't helped this term.
My main worry is that Lambert and some of the players in interviews seem to be happy with the football we're playing and the amount of chances we're creating. Now that might just be sugar coating for the press but I really hope they're not. We need to keep the ball far better and we need to create more chances. Far more.
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If you compare the end of last season to the beginning of this one.
Wieman Lowton Westwood have got worse
Gabby Benteke started well but got injured.
Vlaar and Delph have improved
Sila who was excellent has been dropped.
KEA is still crap.
The only new signing that had a positive impact is Okore and he got injured.
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If you compare the end of last season to the beginning of this one.
Wieman Lowton Westwood have got worse
Gabby Benteke started well but got injured.
Vlaar and Delph have improved
Sila who was excellent has been dropped.
KEA is still crap.
The only new signing that had a positive impact is Okore and he got injured.
Bacuna?
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What people forget about the run in at the end of last season is that we were more than capable of beating the sides around us; QPR, Reading, Sunderland etc, but in all the games against the “top” sides, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool etc on that run, we got beat.
That for me is one of the biggest changes, in that we have been far more competitive against teams at the top, winning two and unfortunate not the beat both Chelsea and Everton.
I think there has perhaps been a change in mentality given the start to lean towards a more functional approach so that when we come out the other end, as we have done, we’re in a respectable position and have not suffered a relapse similar to last December.
It is key that we take the same approach, attacking wise, we had against Everton into the next games, as it will yield points against the likes of Cardiff, West Brom, Sunderland and Fulham.
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Ad's is right. We could (and probably should) have been 3 up before Everton scored. The two chances Benteke had last week, he would have put away at least one of them before his injury. He's just feeling his way back now. If we can just get Gabby and Weimann back to the form they showed during the second half of last season and we'll be fine.
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Our issues last season were shit defending and not being able to pick up points when not playing well. Whilst I'm still not overly happy with us at the back, that has improved. And probably would have improved greater had Okore not gotten injured. And we can dig in now and get something without being at our best. It's not the bright sparkly side of football than puts bums on seats, but it is an important part of the game and represents progress for me.
The more fluid attacking we saw at the end of last season has been there, but more sporadically. Benteke's injury and Weimann's lack of form are really key reasons for this, so I'm both hopeful and expectant that we'll see better as the season settles down.
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I'd settle for 45 points at the end of the season. Slow progress yes but progress all the same.
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I'd settle for 45 points at the end of the season. Slow progress yes but progress all the same.
I've been scarred by the recent relegation battles. I was pleased when we got to 10 points and looked forward to reaching 20 as soon as possible. Then 30 and 40. I never used to think like that. I have also started supporting the likes of United and Chelsea against PL underdogs from the start of the season rather than wait until we are in a relegation battle against those kind of teams.
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If you compare the end of last season to the beginning of this one.
Wieman Lowton Westwood have got worse
Gabby Benteke started well but got injured.
Vlaar and Delph have improved
Sila who was excellent has been dropped.
KEA is still crap.
The only new signing that had a positive impact is Okore and he got injured.
Bacuna?
Bacuna has been a big plus for me, but he's replace Lowton so the net gain is minimal. As a minimum I think we can say we do not need to buy a right-back anymore whereas that was on most people's shopping list last summer.
Somehow I'd like to see both of them playing. I think a combination of the two would be industrious, pacy and not lacking in skill. Guile and vision and that scoring nous might be missing however but that's possibly unfair on Bacuna as we've not really seen him in midfield or Weimann's role much yet.
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Our issues last season were shit defending ... The more fluid attacking we saw at the end of last season has been there, but more sporadically. Benteke's injury and Weimann's lack of form are really key reasons for this, so I'm both hopeful and expectant that we'll see better as the season settles down.
The more fluid attackng came when we moved the ball more quickly; now, we seem to working at half-speed all the time, making our game very predictable. Injuries to Benteke and Gabby hav enot helped, nor has Weimann's poor form, as you say.
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Our issues last season were shit defending ... The more fluid attacking we saw at the end of last season has been there, but more sporadically. Benteke's injury and Weimann's lack of form are really key reasons for this, so I'm both hopeful and expectant that we'll see better as the season settles down.
The more fluid attackng came when we moved the ball more quickly; now, we seem to working at half-speed all the time, making our game very predictable. Injuries to Benteke and Gabby hav enot helped, nor has Weimann's poor form, as you say.
I think we move the ball too fast once we get into the attacking third. Our only way of playing seems to be at 100mph. No one really stops to look up and use a bit of vision. It also doesn't help us because most of our midfield and attack have poor first touches.
We've just not got that balance yet and closing off the wide areas too often limits our attacking avenues too.
We need to get the ball into their half quicker because we dally too much at times, but be a bit more considered with it at times once we get to the final third. Players tend to rush passes and try and play at full pelt all the time and it breaks down to often. That is also inevitably when we then find ourselves become increasingly more reliant on bypassing the midfield entirely and hoofing the ball.
What we lack in technique we have a decent amount of pace. I'd like to see us expand the pitch and counter quickly along the flanks a lot more. Essentially like we did under O Neill. For want of better quality midfielders we need to utilize our speed better and spread our play across the pitch more. We lack the guile and technical ability to break teams down through the middle. We give opposition fullbacks a far too easy time. And in actuality Tonev providing some width gave us a bit of joy in the first half against Everton.
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Our issues last season were shit defending ... The more fluid attacking we saw at the end of last season has been there, but more sporadically. Benteke's injury and Weimann's lack of form are really key reasons for this, so I'm both hopeful and expectant that we'll see better as the season settles down.
The more fluid attackng came when we moved the ball more quickly; now, we seem to working at half-speed all the time, making our game very predictable. Injuries to Benteke and Gabby hav enot helped, nor has Weimann's poor form, as you say.
I think we move the ball too fast once we get into the attacking third. Our only way of playing seems to be at 100mph. No one really stops to look up and use a bit of vision. It also doesn't help us because most of our midfield and attack have poor first touches.
We've just not got that balance yet and closing off the wide areas too often limits our attacking avenues too.
We need to get the ball into their half quicker because we dally too much at times, but be a bit more considered with it at times once we get to the final third. Players tend to rush passes and try and play at full pelt all the time and it breaks down to often. That is also inevitably when we then find ourselves become increasingly more reliant on bypassing the midfield entirely and hoofing the ball.
What we lack in technique we have a decent amount of pace. I'd like to see us expand the pitch and counter quickly along the flanks a lot more. Essentially like we did under O Neill. For want of better quality midfielders we need to utilize our speed better and spread our play across the pitch more. We lack the guile and technical ability to break teams down through the middle. We give opposition fullbacks a far too easy time. And in actuality Tonev providing some width gave us a bit of joy in the first half against Everton.
The width thing against Everton is a fallacy, Tonev's best work was when he came inside and played 1-2 touch passes, which is exactly what we should do in the narrower system we play. Width has it's place and is an option but reading on here you'd sometimes think that it's impossible to be successful without 2 wingers hugging the touchline.
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Our issues last season were shit defending ... The more fluid attacking we saw at the end of last season has been there, but more sporadically. Benteke's injury and Weimann's lack of form are really key reasons for this, so I'm both hopeful and expectant that we'll see better as the season settles down.
The more fluid attackng came when we moved the ball more quickly; now, we seem to working at half-speed all the time, making our game very predictable. Injuries to Benteke and Gabby hav enot helped, nor has Weimann's poor form, as you say.
I think we move the ball too fast once we get into the attacking third. Our only way of playing seems to be at 100mph. No one really stops to look up and use a bit of vision. It also doesn't help us because most of our midfield and attack have poor first touches.
We've just not got that balance yet and closing off the wide areas too often limits our attacking avenues too.
We need to get the ball into their half quicker because we dally too much at times, but be a bit more considered with it at times once we get to the final third. Players tend to rush passes and try and play at full pelt all the time and it breaks down to often. That is also inevitably when we then find ourselves become increasingly more reliant on bypassing the midfield entirely and hoofing the ball.
What we lack in technique we have a decent amount of pace. I'd like to see us expand the pitch and counter quickly along the flanks a lot more. Essentially like we did under O Neill. For want of better quality midfielders we need to utilize our speed better and spread our play across the pitch more. We lack the guile and technical ability to break teams down through the middle. We give opposition fullbacks a far too easy time. And in actuality Tonev providing some width gave us a bit of joy in the first half against Everton.
The width thing against Everton is a fallacy, Tonev's best work was when he came inside and played 1-2 touch passes, which is exactly what we should do in the narrower system we play. Width has it's place and is an option but reading on here you'd sometimes think that it's impossible to be successful without 2 wingers hugging the touchline.
2 Wingers just doesn't work anymore in the modern game, but it'd be nice to have one getting some chalk on his boots sometimes. It shouldn't be our only way of playing, but likewise, playing almost entirely through the middle shouldn't either.
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I agree Supertom, one of our three guys up top should be adept at playing as a winger. Ideally the other one should be able to morph into the mythical #10 too.
Right now the balance isn't quite right.
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You're still getting bogged down by positions on a board, making the field 'wider' is useful as it makes the gaps between players bigger but being able to do something with that space is more important. Gabby and Weimann were perfectly adequate wide players for 4months at the end of last season and we had one of the best attacks in the league, it worked because our players were running good lines that we expected but defenders didn't. We need to get that chemistry back, once we do the lack of a winger is no longer important. An attacking midfield who spots the runs sooner and releases the ball sooner when the runs are made is far more important.
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The thing about width isn't MONish endless crossing, but making space. If you all stand very close together, it's not very hard for defences to stay compact and stop you. If you spread out, they have to spread out as well, and you can actually try to find some spaces in the centre. It's very simple, but Lambert appears to have other ideas, so I'm hoping they're much better than my simplistic ones.
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The full backs need to create width and they're only going to do that if you're winning the ball in midfield. Sylla is the player to give us the presence and help the likes of Westy.
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Sylla pressing higher up the ptich was an important part of our revival last season as it meant we were much higher up the pitch when we won the ball back and hadn't got 7-8 players pressed back to the edge of our box as has happened a lot this year.
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I like Sylla, but his presence only makes sense if Delph is there too I think. I certainly don't want to see KEA and Westwood in the same midfield in general.
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Delph in front of Sylla and Westwood, with more licence to hit the box, is our best midfield combination
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Delph in front of Sylla and Westwood, with more licence to hit the box, is our best midfield combination
At this point I'd have to agree with you.
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I think so Ads. He has the natural ability, id like to think once he gets a goal, he could go on a bit of a run.
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You're still getting bogged down by positions on a board, making the field 'wider' is useful as it makes the gaps between players bigger but being able to do something with that space is more important. Gabby and Weimann were perfectly adequate wide players for 4months at the end of last season and we had one of the best attacks in the league, it worked because our players were running good lines that we expected but defenders didn't. We need to get that chemistry back, once we do the lack of a winger is no longer important. An attacking midfield who spots the runs sooner and releases the ball sooner when the runs are made is far more important.
i'm not disgreeing as such. I actually think gabby is capable of the winger role (especially if he can learn a trick or two once in tight spaces. You're still getting bogged down by positions on a board, making the field 'wider' is useful as it makes the gaps between players bigger but being able to do something with that space is more important. Gabby and Weimann were perfectly adequate wide players for 4months at the end of last season and we had one of the best attacks in the league, it worked because our players were running good lines that we expected but defenders didn't. We need to get that chemistry back, once we do the lack of a winger is no longer important. An attacking midfield who spots the runs sooner and releases the ball sooner when the runs are made is far more important.
I don't think we're disagreeing by much here, I think the side needs a player that has the instinct of a winger. A player who is comfortable on the touchline (when packed), with a trick to do something.
Gabby is often great at it, but in generally it comes from broken play rather than a 'winger's trick' to go round someone.
Ironically I think this season's issues are more as a result of Weimann's lack of confidence and as a result we've got two very industrious player but lacking in flair/vision.
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Delph in front of Sylla and Westwood, with more licence to hit the box, is our best midfield combination
At this point I'd have to agree with you.
Seconded. We can't carry both Westy and KEA. It's too immobile. As said, if you've got Sylla and Delphs energy in midfield it also gives our fullbacks a bit more license to get forward and create more width for us.
I also think we could do with Lowton really hitting form again (also allowing Bacuna further up the pitch). Lowton was a very clever user of the ball last season. He read the game well, he was actually very tidy on the ball and useful in attack. I honestly think he's got more quality on the ball than most of our mids actually do, so if we get him back on form it could be beneficial.
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Delph is probably the key to any improvement. To unlock defences these days you need someone who can beat his man, and in a tight spot Fab is the best we have at that. I agree he should be given more licence to get forward, but unfortunately he's got mediocre players alongside him in midfield right now, and none of them are very good at tracking runners or tackling.
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Delph in front of Sylla and Westwood, with more licence to hit the box, is our best midfield combination
At this point I'd have to agree with you.
Seconded. We can't carry both Westy and KEA. It's too immobile. As said, if you've got Sylla and Delphs energy in midfield it also gives our fullbacks a bit more license to get forward and create more width for us.
I also think we could do with Lowton really hitting form again (also allowing Bacuna further up the pitch). Lowton was a very clever user of the ball last season. He read the game well, he was actually very tidy on the ball and useful in attack. I honestly think he's got more quality on the ball than most of our mids actually do, so if we get him back on form it could be beneficial.
Thirded.
On Lowton, I agree with the caveat that I would think twice if the opposition has a competent wide left speed merchant.
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The concern is though during last season's run in we played some terrific football (the Sunderland game especially) and we all hoped that progression would continue but rather than even stagnating, our style of football has regressed to something that a previous manager would be proud of.
However, it's a good point to make concerning the timing of our improvement last season but it really doesn't explain or excuse why we haven't maintained that throughout the start of this season.
One of the reasons put forward for that lack of continuity is the quality of teams we've played so far having to play less expansive football to tighten our defence but we are already set up to be a counter attacking team so that argument holds little weight for me.
I also read many posters last season (before becoming a member) explaining our flirtation with relegation as a young team taking time to gel and that we would be much better this season when those young players had a Premiership season under their belts. That may still happen and its still a little premature to judge but that excitement we all felt in last season's run in that we might actually have the makings of a good team being built which plays entertaining football has certainly been dampened this season and thats why some of us are more vocal in our disappointment than others.
Some good points there Tyler. Tomorrow we will learn a lot more about where we are as a team. All the injuries don't help and will be a ready made excuse for many if we don't get the three points.
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gabby will be on Fifa14 ,practicing his shooting. He bloody needs too .
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Delph in front of Sylla and Westwood, with more licence to hit the box, is our best midfield combination
At this point I'd have to agree with you.
Seconded. We can't carry both Westy and KEA. It's too immobile. As said, if you've got Sylla and Delphs energy in midfield it also gives our fullbacks a bit more license to get forward and create more width for us.
I also think we could do with Lowton really hitting form again (also allowing Bacuna further up the pitch). Lowton was a very clever user of the ball last season. He read the game well, he was actually very tidy on the ball and useful in attack. I honestly think he's got more quality on the ball than most of our mids actually do, so if we get him back on form it could be beneficial.
Thirded.
On Lowton, I agree with the caveat that I would think twice if the opposition has a competent wide left speed merchant.
Yeah, that's my worry on Lowton. And again, we're susceptible in fullback areas to direct, pacy opponents on either side. I think that's why we have to play two athletic midfielders in the center instead of just the one. It gives you a bit of cover there.
I'd also like a right side of Lowton and Bacuna because there's a good mix of craft, industry, energy, composure and pace between the two.
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Delph in front of Sylla and Westwood, with more licence to hit the box, is our best midfield combination
At this point I'd have to agree with you.
Seconded. We can't carry both Westy and KEA. It's too immobile. As said, if you've got Sylla and Delphs energy in midfield it also gives our fullbacks a bit more license to get forward and create more width for us.
I also think we could do with Lowton really hitting form again (also allowing Bacuna further up the pitch). Lowton was a very clever user of the ball last season. He read the game well, he was actually very tidy on the ball and useful in attack. I honestly think he's got more quality on the ball than most of our mids actually do, so if we get him back on form it could be beneficial.
Thirded.
On Lowton, I agree with the caveat that I would think twice if the opposition has a competent wide left speed merchant.
Yeah, that's my worry on Lowton. And again, we're susceptible in fullback areas to direct, pacy opponents on either side. I think that's why we have to play two athletic midfielders in the center instead of just the one. It gives you a bit of cover there.
I'd also like a right side of Lowton and Bacuna because there's a good mix of craft, industry, energy, composure and pace between the two.
I too would favour Bacuna and Lowton operating the right side.
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The concern is though during last season's run in we played some terrific football (the Sunderland game especially) and we all hoped that progression would continue but rather than even stagnating, our style of football has regressed to something that a previous manager would be proud of.
However, it's a good point to make concerning the timing of our improvement last season but it really doesn't explain or excuse why we haven't maintained that throughout the start of this season.
One of the reasons put forward for that lack of continuity is the quality of teams we've played so far having to play less expansive football to tighten our defence but we are already set up to be a counter attacking team so that argument holds little weight for me.
I also read many posters last season (before becoming a member) explaining our flirtation with relegation as a young team taking time to gel and that we would be much better this season when those young players had a Premiership season under their belts. That may still happen and its still a little premature to judge but that excitement we all felt in last season's run in that we might actually have the makings of a good team being built which plays entertaining football has certainly been dampened this season and thats why some of us are more vocal in our disappointment than others.
Some good points there Tyler. Tomorrow we will learn a lot more about where we are as a team. All the injuries don't help and will be a ready made excuse for many if we don't get the three points.
And for others even if we win there will be something to moan about. It's the nature of things, lets just wait and see what happens before getting digs in early shall we. Oh and lots of injuries is an explanation for things not happening as expected rather than an excuse.
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I see Barry Glendenning mentioned our pre-match thread in the Guardian today.
I wonder if he reads this thread. There's some excellent debate on here, and you'd get a good overview of where we think we are by just casting an eye over it.
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Glendenning is such a bore on Talksport on a Sunday morning.
Evening anyway Baz!
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More evidence of transition is finding ways to win even when not playing well and never really looking like losing. It was a grind and not as free flowing as we wanted but we worked out a way to get a result.
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More evidence of transition is finding ways to win even when not playing well and never really looking like losing. It was a grind and not as free flowing as we wanted but we worked out a way to get a result.
Yes and 4 clean sheets in quick succession bodes well.
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The reality is we're joint 9th in the league despite winning 1 game in 5 and not scoring in 4 of them. And obviously having creative and defensive issues in the team.
The league below the top 7 is not very good is it? That's why I'd be very disappointed if say we finished 13th or 14th as their are teams below us with much bigger problems than we have.
I'm hopeful of a top 10 finish which I'd be happy with for this season. Now if the standard of football could improve to the level of last season's run in then then so much the better.
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The reality is we're joint 9th in the league despite winning 1 game in 5 and not scoring in 4 of them. And obviously having creative and defensive issues in the team.
The league below the top 7 is not very good is it? That's why I'd be very disappointed if say we finished 13th or 14th as their are teams below us with much bigger problems than we have.
I'm hopeful of a top 10 finish which I'd be happy with for this season. Now if the standard of football could improve to the level of last season's run in then then so much the better.
This .
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Glendenning is such a bore on Talksport on a Sunday morning.
Evening anyway Baz!
Hi baz! Thanks for tipping us to win the league!
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I really like Barry on football extra
Results wise, I'm pretty pleased so far, given the fixture list and injuries. And our ability to keep clean sheets (at least sometimes) mean we can win games like yday's.
There's plenty we need to get better at, and I'm not being complacent. I was expecting to see us pass the ball quite a lot better than this and I still think we're desperate for a creative midfielder who could either occupy a wider or central position. If you look at teams around us or that we might think are realistic rivals, they've all got a lallana, amalfitano, cabaye or shelvey etc.
We need a player like that. Or two! The only players in the squad are grealish and carruthers, but I think we'd need to see them doing more on loan to think they are the immediate answer.
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https://twitter.com/theciancarroll/status/398090222207893504
Someone on twitter has done a table, showing teams by the value of their fixtures' difficulty. I don't think it's weighted actual points gained, or whether they've weighted home and away differently
Anyway, either way, we're top and Southampton are bottom.
I keep on saying this, but let's start judging the team by around the end of December. We've got loads of winnable games coming up. And i think we've lost one game against a team outside the current top eight since January.
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More evidence of transition is finding ways to win even when not playing well and never really looking like losing. It was a grind and not as free flowing as we wanted but we worked out a way to get a result.
Yes and 4 clean sheets in quick succession bodes well.
That was one thing we lacked last season, which all decent sides need, and that is the ability to grind out a result. Not pretty but you can't win everygame 3-2 in style. So in this respect, though it's been painful on the eyes to watch recently, it has been pleasing to see our defence much improved. We won at Arsenal with a degree of style. Every other win this season has been a hard thought slog. We're due another win with a bit of pazzazz and some nice footy, so hopefully it comes soon. It won't come against the Baggies though, that's going to be very tight and not very pretty.
If we can recapture a bit of our style too, we'll be comfortable this season.
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It would appear that Westwood, Sylla, Delph and Bacuna are our best 4 midfielders. What would be wrong with a midfield and upfront of (?)
Bacuna Westwood Sylla Delph
Tonev
Benteke
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It would appear that Westwood, Sylla, Delph and Bacuna are our best 4 midfielders. What would be wrong with a midfield and upfront of (?)
Bacuna Westwood Sylla Delph
Tonev
Benteke
Agreed, said the same on the post match thread - this is the way to go .
I would have Westwood sylla as the holding midfield players with bacuna Delph and tonev ahead - benteke as the focal point but tonev and bacuna getting forward to support and also Lowton and luna on the overlap - more fluidity and movement .
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Would prefer Gabby or Weimann as opposed to Tonev.
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I think that midfield lacks balance.
Away from home I think you would have Sylla and Westwood, Delph in front, with Bacuna and Gabby off Benteke. Plenty of pace and width there.
At home I think Tonev has something to offer with some invention through the middle.
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I think that midfield lacks balance.
Away from home I think you would have Sylla and Westwood, Delph in front, with Bacuna and Gabby off Benteke. Plenty of pace and width there.
At home I think Tonev has something to offer with some invention through the middle.
I cannot see gabby being fit for the Albion game - we do now have options though and can vary our game - we have the likes of Kozak, gabby and Weimann in addition to those mentioned.
I have heard nothing on nzogbia for a while so assume he is still a long way from returning.
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I think we have to play with three central midfielders. There's no way Delph should be forced out into a wider position to accommodate a new system. Therefore Delph, Sylla and Westwood need to be a central three with one dropping back, one slightly advanced and one as a kind of midfield engine (Delph/Sylla). Could this work perhaps, with Bacuna playing in the Weimann position but drifting wider?
-----------------------Westwood--------------------------
---------------Sylla-----------------Delph-----------------
------Bacuna---------------------------------Agbonlahor-----
------------------------Benteke---------------------------------
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I think we have to play with three central midfielders. There's no way Delph should be forced out into a wider position to accommodate a new system. Therefore Delph, Sylla and Westwood need to be a central three with one dropping back, one slightly advanced and one as a kind of midfield engine (Delph/Sylla). Could this work perhaps, with Bacuna playing in the Weimann position but drifting wider?
-----------------------Westwood--------------------------
---------------Sylla-----------------Delph-----------------
------Bacuna---------------------------------Agbonlahor-----
------------------------Benteke---------------------------------
This. I'd have Weimann, Tonev and Gabby rotating in that left FW position. I actually think if Andi is going to play a narrow wide role, hes better on the left hand side, allowing him to cut inside onto his right foot. I think he'd bury more chances than he has this season so far, if he was coming in onto his stronger foot. I'd like Bacuna, with Lowton playing behind him to provide some width and a bit of quality on the flank, whilst retaining all that industry Andi would give you there. We've got 3 humungous strikers on our books, we may as well give them some crosses to feed off.
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I thought this season was going to be a season of 5-2 wins and 6-3 defeats .
how wrong was I
Its dull at times but as long as we survive and I now think we will , as their are a lot of poor teams this season.
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https://twitter.com/theciancarroll/status/398090222207893504
Someone on twitter has done a table, showing teams by the value of their fixtures' difficulty. I don't think it's weighted actual points gained, or whether they've weighted home and away differently
Anyway, either way, we're top and Southampton are bottom.
I keep on saying this, but let's start judging the team by around the end of December. We've got loads of winnable games coming up. And i think we've lost one game against a team outside the current top eight since January.
Matt, when you look at the November and December a lot in the league will even out. We have numerous very winnable games, the toughest being Southampton away. I would hope the recent resilience we are exhibiting will hold us in good stead against all of those sides with the added bonus that Benteke's goal dearth will not last forever.
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https://twitter.com/theciancarroll/status/398090222207893504
Someone on twitter has done a table, showing teams by the value of their fixtures' difficulty. I don't think it's weighted actual points gained, or whether they've weighted home and away differently
Anyway, either way, we're top and Southampton are bottom.
I keep on saying this, but let's start judging the team by around the end of December. We've got loads of winnable games coming up. And i think we've lost one game against a team outside the current top eight since January.
Matt, when you look at the November and December a lot in the league will even out. We have numerous very winnable games, the toughest being Southampton away. I would hope the recent resilience we are exhibiting will hold us in good stead against all of those sides with the added bonus that Benteke's goal dearth will not last forever.
Sooner or later we will start to score again and this will lift the team and confidence will grow. It showed last season we grew in confidence from March onwards and we all felt we could get a result and score goals. I really don't think we are as bad as some people portray us. I do however think this young side is very dependent on Benteke's goals to give us that belief. Saying that there is a great togetherness in the team and they seem to be more resilient like you say TV.
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I agree with that, one goal yesterday totally lifted us.
Same as last season, one goal could really inspire or deflate us instantly.
Hallmark of a very young side I suppose.
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I agree with that, one goal yesterday totally lifted us.
Same as last season, one goal could really inspire or deflate us instantly.
Hallmark of a very young side I suppose.
Oh for an early goal in one of these "winnable" games. We deserved one on merit against Everton and possibly Cardiff, even West Ham. Get that and I could see a comfortable victory coming as the opposition will be forced to attack and our natural counter attacking game can prosper.
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https://twitter.com/theciancarroll/status/398090222207893504
Someone on twitter has done a table, showing teams by the value of their fixtures' difficulty. I don't think it's weighted actual points gained, or whether they've weighted home and away differently
Anyway, either way, we're top and Southampton are bottom.
I keep on saying this, but let's start judging the team by around the end of December. We've got loads of winnable games coming up. And i think we've lost one game against a team outside the current top eight since January.
And that was against Newcastle, who are presently 9th.
If you take the points per game since we 'turrned the corner' away to Everton last season, it's 35 points from 25 games, which extrapolates to 53 points over a 38 game season.
Would anyone argue with that come May?
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That would be a tidy return and probably see us 11th-8th.
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I would be pleased with that. A club of our size and stature should be hitting 50 points as an absolute minimum.
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I always think it's too much like having a sense of entitlement to say say things like that. In reality, our size and stature don't matter as it's the team we put out that defines what results we should be getting.
If you think the team isn't worthy of the club, then that's another matter.
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I always think it's too much like having a sense of entitlement to say say things like that. In reality, our size and stature don't matter as it's the team we put out that defines what results we should be getting.
If you think the team isn't worthy of the club, then that's another matter.
Having been in every season of the Prem, and more often than not finished comfortably past 50 points I think a sense of entitlement is in order. I think a lot of the top clubs certainly have that. For some, like City, money changes what fans think they're entitled to of course, but I would say that the fans have a right to expect that whoever is in charge is putting out a team that is always well clear of relegation, at a minimum.
I think we're starting to see the potential in this side to suggest we can turn around the last three seasons of woeful under achievement.
As for entitlement though, I don't think most fans here are stomping their feet because we're not pushing for the top 4 every year. We have a realistic minimum expectation, which is to be comfortable and solid somewhere in the midriff of the Prem. 50 points will guarantee that. I don't think that's too much to ask given everything in place at the club.
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We have no right to be entitled to anything this season other than a place in the Premier League and in the FA Cup third round. Every other club in our league has the same.
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We have no right to be entitled to anything this season other than a place in the Premier League and in the FA Cup third round. Every other club in our league has the same.
The club may not have any divine right, but the fans are entitled to expect not to merely scrape by every year. I couldn't say I'd be anything other than disappointed if we finished a shade over that 40 point mark again, down around 15-16th.
A target for a club like ourselves shouldn't be to hit that 40 point mark. We should be looking beyond that. 40 for us should be done and dusted before the close of March. We're not a yo-yo club, or a naive fresh club having finally got a taste of the top flight. We've been in the top flight for probably (estimated punt with my shit maths skills) 95% of the time since league football formed. There's been odd blips but we've been back up in the top flight now for 25 odd years straight again, where we should be. The same goes for Everton. They should expect not to be scraping by. They have had the odd relegation battle, but are largely a solid side and mid-table should be a minimum requirement.
I know we've had to balance books but it's not like we've had the problems Leeds or Portsmouth had, of which relegation pretty much did them in (the latter spectacularly). Our squad was decimated over 2-3 years after MON, but we still had enough quality in the side that safety should have been far more assured. If we get to a point of spending within our means, as we're heading, then we'll still be able to outspend most clubs coming up from the league below, and the ones in the top flight who will always scrap in the bottom 8. With our size, our academy, and the expectation that comes with our history, I don't see the problem with a little entitlement. Obviously there's unrealistic expectations at times with fans, but I think on the whole us lot are fairly realistic. We know that the big 6 are going to pull away further with the money at hand, that the rest can't compete with (until a Sheik comes knocking).
If we're not entitled to expect our club to finish comfortably, well clear of the drop line, then we can't really be entitled to feel disappointed if we scrape by again. But honestly, hanging in by the skin of our teeth again this season would be a big disappointment to most of us on here.
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Expectations and entitlement are two seperate matters.
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Expectations and entitlement are two seperate matters.
Yes but they're linked. We're entitled to have a certain expectation of whats expected of this club. As for outright entitlement, a lot of other clubs from board to fans feel they're entitled to an absolute bare minimum and when that's not being met, it's not pretty. As we've seen with Utd fans this year.
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Entitlement is a word I would associate with Wolves fans.
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if clubs get what they deserve, how comes Chelsea won the champs league, and MUFC win the league every other year
they deserve fuck all, but that's the way it is
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Entitlement is a word I would associate with Wolves fans.
Similarly I associate it with Newcastle fans, which is why it was so hilarious when we sent them down.
Yes we should be aiming higher but it doesn't happen overnight. Stating 'minimum' points totals is all well and good but they're meaningless if they're unrealistic based on where this team currently is, ability-wise.
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Entitlement is a word I would associate with Wolves fans.
Similarly I associate it with Newcastle fans, which is why it was so hilarious when we sent them down.
Yes we should be aiming higher but it doesn't happen overnight. Stating 'minimum' points totals is all well and good but they're meaningless if they're unrealistic based on where this team currently is, ability-wise.
I think a target of 50 points is very achievable for the team we have right now - that would probably represent a top 10 finish and mean most will have an enjoyable summer .
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if clubs get what they deserve, how comes Chelsea won the champs league, and MUFC win the league every other year
they deserve fuck all, but that's the way it is
Problem is you don't get what you deserve anymore - you get what you pay for!
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if clubs get what they deserve, how comes Chelsea won the champs league, and MUFC win the league every other year
they deserve fuck all, but that's the way it is
Problem is you don't get what you deserve anymore - you get what you pay for!
If you have the right manager you get what you pay for - if you have the wrong manager you can end up with a load of overpaid tosh.
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if clubs get what they deserve, how comes Chelsea won the champs league, and MUFC win the league every other year
they deserve fuck all, but that's the way it is
Problem is you don't get what you deserve anymore - you get what you pay for!
If you have the right manager you get what you pay for - if you have the wrong manager you can end up with a load of overpaid tosh.
I cannot see much over paid tosh with our lot at the moment. Does that mean that we actually have a good manager old boy ?
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if clubs get what they deserve, how comes Chelsea won the champs league, and MUFC win the league every other year
they deserve fuck all, but that's the way it is
Problem is you don't get what you deserve anymore - you get what you pay for!
If you have the right manager you get what you pay for - if you have the wrong manager you can end up with a load of overpaid tosh.
I cannot see much over paid tosh with our lot at the moment. Does that mean that we actually have a good manager old boy ?
Less of the old please you whipper snapper :)
In relation to the question - I hope so - certainly his transfer dealings have been much better than recent managers .
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Must admit I'm surprised by the amount of stick Lambert is getting in the post match thread. Maybe the result of another underwhelming home result but I didn't realise a few of the regular posters were turning against him. Games are always crap in the winter I find. Anyway seeing as for some reason the Paul Lambert thread can't be located on this forum, I thought this was the next best place. My take which I posted on VT:
With WBA losing we are 10th in the league. I think that's the best we can really expect from Lambert currently.
This certainly looks like a no frills mid table season. We regularly pick up points against the bottom half teams so there's no issue of fighting relegation but equally there's already a 4 point gap to just 9th and Spurs and Newcastle could be 7 clear of us by half 7 so looks like we're going to be stuck in 10-11th all season which after the last 3 seasons may not be a bad thing.
The issue remains....when a few more of the high earners leave hopefully in the summer (I think that will be Bent and CNZ) and Benteke potentially leaves (bringing in 20m +) will Lambert be given the majority of that to really push us on and get us challenging the top 6 or will he have to feed on scraps still? We've seen before replacing good players who've left that might nt be a wise move.
The other issue I have aswell is does Lambert have enough nous himself to push us back competiting for top 6? I'd say he's doing a steady job for us. I wouldn't call it outstanding as outstanding would be overperforming with another 5-6 points on the board e.g. where Southampton are and where Newcastle will probably be if they win tonight.
Just to add....I can't believe Lambert has watched this first half of the season and doesn't realise we desperately need a number 10 and probably another pacey wide option to make us a bit more exciting to watch at home.
I expect some moves in janaury even if it's just Popov and say Zaha in on loan.
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I cannot believe for one second a competitor like Lambert wants to float around in mid table for the rest of his career. But I also think he is astute enough to work within the parameters at the time and build towards more every season. The up curve in anything is a lot of hard work and resources and in almost all cases takes much longer to achieve and sustain. The down curve is easy, we know that, and so much harder to get off. When things go shit they go shit. The hardest bit is the middle, is turning the down curve into an up curve and we are starting to do that. We've been down and if this season ends up being boring at times then it's the price to be paid for improvement in the future.
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As I've said above the big test will be when Benteke leaves which to me looks 99.9% likely in the summer.
Now plenty are now convinced he's only worth a fiver but class is permanent and it's not likely he's going to go between now and May without scoring a goal. If Andy Carroll can spend half his career injured and still move for just south of 20m to West Ham that's a good indicator we'll still get a good fee for him.
Now the board then have to give Lambert the majority of that and see what he can do as we've seen things decline very quickly previously when key players haven't been replaced.
The wages thing needs to be relaxed a little aswell.....I certainly don't want to go back to playing squad filler Heskey, Given or Beye 30 year olds 40k + a week, that was all wrong but again matchwinners cost more than 20k a week.
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The wages thing needs to be relaxed a little aswell.....I certainly don't want to go back to playing squad filler Heskey, Given or Beye 30 year olds 40k + a week, that was all wrong but again matchwinners cost more than 20k a week.
This is key. There is a few who say he has spent a lot of money (although I'd be argue he hasn't really as the team he inherited needed such massive changes), but the money has had to spend he has to work within this wage structure. He might find a bargain out there for a small fee, even on a free, but the wage demands are still there with certain, well actually most top players.
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The problem is, if we carry on as we are, we won't finish mid-table. Luck will run out, teams will become even wiser in nullifying our limited threat. We've also seen in recent seasons how devastating an injury at the wrong time has been. We've pull through a few early injuries already this season, but if Vlaar gets laid out long term then our defense suddenly loses it's solidity. Clarky's done very well, but just him and Baker? That would be scary, because our fullbacks are pretty poor defensively. Lose our defensive resolve and picking up results becomes a lot harder too. We rode our luck in the last three games too.
He's got to find a system that works. He's got to get a bit of composure in there somehow and get us passing the ball better. At the moment we look like 11 individuals when we're on the ball. They all work hard, which gets us so far. But honestly some of the passing of late has been mind bogglingly bad. We're talking simple five yard passes going astray. The lack of decent movement is a worry too.
If we carry on like we are we won't finish tenth. My worry about Lambert is that he seems more pleased than he should about how we're playing. The players look like headless chickens. The positive aspect is that they work bloody hard for him and don't give in. But his clueless tactics will eventually come unstuck.
In january we need not only a number 10, we probably need two midfielders with a bit of technical ability, to come in.
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Must admit I'm surprised by the amount of stick Lambert is getting in the post match thread.
That is becoming a stock phrase now. Why are you surprised? The performance was pathetic again. Hope that we can sell loads of season tickets next year but how many mugs are there?
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Why do people think we can transform from a team fighting relegation for 3 seasons to into a quality, fluid passing, winning every home game team overnight? We can't and neither can any other team. Despite all the money in the world it still took Chelsea and Mancity 4/5 years to start winning trophies. Without free money it will take longer much longer and may be not at all because as soon a semblance of a good team emerges so do vultures and lose 2/3 quality players and you are back to square one.
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Why do people think we can transform from a team fighting relegation for 3 seasons to into a quality, fluid passing, winning every home game team overnight? We can't and neither can any other team. Despite all the money in the world it still took Chelsea and Mancity 4/5 years to start winning trophies. Without free money it will take longer much longer and may be not at all because as soon a semblance of a good team emerges so do vultures and lose 2/3 quality players and you are back to square one.
We don't all expect that. But it would be nice to see five yard passes reach their intended target. There's no excuse for the sheer amount of unforced errors we make, and how clueless the players seem in the final third. They have no idea what system/if any they're playing.
We'll never be Barca, but if we're not even getting the basics right, we've got problems. Sheer guts, effort, luck and determination will only get us so far.
Our passing has been consistently bad. There's no movement, it's all aimless, but players just gift the ball back to the opposition. We look like headless chickens most of the time. The sad part is, on the defensive we look quite well drilled (with the exception of questionable full back positioning).
KEA consistently goes missing too. That doesn't help us at all.
I don't expect fluidity yet, but I do expect at a professional level, even with players we've bought from L1/2, that the fundamentals are there. No one has a cool head in our side from the midfield up. No one appears to be assured in what they are doing. I don't think that's down to the players themselves, it's down to how the manager has sent them out.
I honestly think Marshall has done a lot for our defence it would seem. We need to get in someone to have a similar effect on our midfield and attack.
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I genuinely could see a midfield and attacking coach making decent improvements to this side, where would that leave Lambert though? Is he much of a motivationalist or tactician? :o
It wont happen anyway.
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I genuinely could see a midfield and attacking coach making decent improvements to this side, where would that leave Lambert though? Is he much of a motivationalist or tactician? :o
It wont happen anyway.
The players, mostly, seem to bust a gut for Lambert. We're not lacking in application or effort, but tactically we're well short.
Lets face it, a lot of managers are all about motivation and leave the technical and tactical aspects to others. But sheer force of will will only get us so far. On the ball, facing goal, our players look lost. The ball player looks up and there's no movement at all. There's no composure. We then rush everything. Players play passes blind in hope. Its a total mess.
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I'm fully behind PL, but the one disappointing thing i've seen in him is how he has missed the fact that our midfielders are very similar, good hard workers, quite tidy on the ball, but unable to dominate a game or make something happen, and the fact that we spent good money on a guy who's not gonna be a number one starter ( no disrespect to Kovak he may come good) seems to be wasted when a £7m midfielder would have been far more beneficial for us right now.
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I'm fully behind PL, but the one disappointing thing i've seen in him is how he has missed the fact that our midfielders are very similar, good hard workers, quite tidy on the ball, but unable to dominate a game or make something happen, and the fact that we spent good money on a guy who's not gonna be a number one starter ( no disrespect to Kovak he may come good) seems to be wasted when a £7m midfielder would have been far more beneficial for us right now.
Leroy Fer would have done a good job in our Midfield, add a bit of height aswell.
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I cannot believe for one second a competitor like Lambert wants to float around in mid table for the rest of his career. But I also think he is astute enough to work within the parameters at the time and build towards more every season. The up curve in anything is a lot of hard work and resources and in almost all cases takes much longer to achieve and sustain. The down curve is easy, we know that, and so much harder to get off. When things go shit they go shit. The hardest bit is the middle, is turning the down curve into an up curve and we are starting to do that. We've been down and if this season ends up being boring at times then it's the price to be paid for improvement in the future.
Spot on. There will be plenty of boring, frustrating, mediocre performances between now and the end of the season and this will simply be down to where we are as a club at the moment. Performances like yesterday's are steps on the journey back to being a well-run, successful and competitive club
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I cannot believe for one second a competitor like Lambert wants to float around in mid table for the rest of his career. But I also think he is astute enough to work within the parameters at the time and build towards more every season. The up curve in anything is a lot of hard work and resources and in almost all cases takes much longer to achieve and sustain. The down curve is easy, we know that, and so much harder to get off. When things go shit they go shit. The hardest bit is the middle, is turning the down curve into an up curve and we are starting to do that. We've been down and if this season ends up being boring at times then it's the price to be paid for improvement in the future.
Spot on. There will be plenty of boring, frustrating, mediocre performances between now and the end of the season and this will simply be down to where we are as a club at the moment. Performances like yesterday's are steps on the journey back to being a well-run, successful and competitive club
Performances like we had at arsenal are steps on the journey back to being a competive and successful club - performances like yesterday are abysmal and need to be quickly wiped from the memory.
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I cannot believe for one second a competitor like Lambert wants to float around in mid table for the rest of his career. But I also think he is astute enough to work within the parameters at the time and build towards more every season. The up curve in anything is a lot of hard work and resources and in almost all cases takes much longer to achieve and sustain. The down curve is easy, we know that, and so much harder to get off. When things go shit they go shit. The hardest bit is the middle, is turning the down curve into an up curve and we are starting to do that. We've been down and if this season ends up being boring at times then it's the price to be paid for improvement in the future.
Spot on. There will be plenty of boring, frustrating, mediocre performances between now and the end of the season and this will simply be down to where we are as a club at the moment. Performances like yesterday's are steps on the journey back to being a well-run, successful and competitive club
Performances like we had at arsenal are steps on the journey back to being a competive and successful club - performances like yesterday are abysmal and need to be quickly wiped from the memory.
Performances like we had at Arsenal will happen amongst more performances not to that level. As good as that display was we also caught Arsenal at a really vunerable time and took advantage. We deserve credit for the win, but let's be honest we had a few things go in our favour. If anyone thought that would then become the norm then that would be a completely unrealsitic and unfair expectation of a side that a few months prior just fought off going down. I wish it was that easy.
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Shite....the bottom half awaits us. :(
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How many on here would have preferred Martin Jol and all the "premiership quality" that he brought to Fulham?
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To be fair I think part of yesterdays reaction was to our home performances rather than the result.
While I am a glass half full guy I understand where those who are tired of seeing us play poorly at home are coming from.
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How many on here would have preferred Martin Jol and all the "premiership quality" that he brought to Fulham?
Jol is clueless. He likes to have an attacking side, with little regard for balance. It's a different kettle of fish having the squad he inherited at Spurs say. Once teams figured them out it went wrong for him of course, after initial success.
I think Jol also proved that the polar opposite to how we're going, or the Martin O Neill way, which his signings were akin to, is definitely not the way. He wasn't entirely wrong, but again, no balance.
Just like Fulham need to buy some younger prospects with more long term potential, we also need to buy a little more experience for our side.
But looking for example at Parker and Bent. On paper you'd think that's good business. The reality however is that Parker's legs went 2 years ago and Bent is a relic of days gone by. The Bent style forward is a thing of the past at this level. It's even more so now that injuries have robbed him of his pace.
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My son just called him Farting Lol on twitter. He's a potty mouthed bugger but very funny at times.
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I'm fully behind PL, but the one disappointing thing i've seen in him is how he has missed the fact that our midfielders are very similar, good hard workers, quite tidy on the ball, but unable to dominate a game or make something happen, and the fact that we spent good money on a guy who's not gonna be a number one starter ( no disrespect to Kovak he may come good) seems to be wasted when a £7m midfielder would have been far more beneficial for us right now.
Got grief for making that point a while ago. We have Benteke, Weimann and Gabby and a rake of average midfielders but one of our rare big money buys was another striker. When Lambert has said we can't match the spending power of the Albion and that's how we spend what little money we do have, it should be no surprise we can't beat a dire Sunderland side. At home.
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I don't believe Lambert is as stubborn as MON. The inquiry he made for Kioyate indicated it was a position he wanted to fill but the price quoted was too high. Maybe he also felt Tonev could do a job there. He hasn't so I'd liked to think we'll get someone in January. We'll see.
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I don't believe Lambert is as stubborn as MON. The inquiry he made for Kioyate indicated it was a position he wanted to fill but the price quoted was too high. Maybe he also felt Tonev could do a job there. He hasn't so I'd liked to think we'll get someone in January. We'll see.
It isn't a question of stubbornness. The trouble is, he has a plan which he believes in, and which RL will back to the hilt. The January transfer window of last year was the test of their joint resolve. They were prepared to contemplate the very real threat of relegation rather than buckle.
Let us be honest: we are in this for better or worse. Most fans go along with it to a certain extent, but I would imagine our gates will drop quite considerably during the process, and I would say that they have built this into their plans.
As to the length of this process, if I may paraphrase Leon Trotksy on the subject of the geographical location of the felicitous paradise to his religious prison guard: "There is no precise information".
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I don't believe Lambert is as stubborn as MON. The inquiry he made for Kioyate indicated it was a position he wanted to fill but the price quoted was too high. Maybe he also felt Tonev could do a job there. He hasn't so I'd liked to think we'll get someone in January. We'll see.
he's not. Would MON have brought in a defensive coach in the summer or would he have stuck it out with Walford and Robertson? I think Lambert is evolving. He's made mistakes. He's been unlucky at times. His team haven't performed, his tactics haven't always worked. It's just way too early in opinion for any of us to abandon ship.
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I don't believe Lambert is as stubborn as MON. The inquiry he made for Kioyate indicated it was a position he wanted to fill but the price quoted was too high. Maybe he also felt Tonev could do a job there. He hasn't so I'd liked to think we'll get someone in January. We'll see.
he's not. Would MON have brought in a defensive coach in the summer or would he have stuck it out with Walford and Robertson? I think Lambert is evolving. He's made mistakes. He's been unlucky at times. His team haven't performed, his tactics haven't always worked. It's just way too early in opinion for any of us to abandon ship.
I think we have similar views on this TV, and Soccer too. To dismiss the idea Lambert would not bring in an attacking coach is clearly flawed by him identifying the back 4 as an issue and bringing in Marshall. Clearly we are much less of a threat going forward, but more solid at the back. Going forward, IMO, we have been very unlucky with injuries to Gabby and Benteke, and complete loss of form to Weimann, Gabby and Benteke over the last few weeks. That happens in football, and top sides have replacements, we can't carry that. When they hit form again we will win a few games with some ease, but they need their confidence back somehow.
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I don't believe Lambert is as stubborn as MON. The inquiry he made for Kioyate indicated it was a position he wanted to fill but the price quoted was too high. Maybe he also felt Tonev could do a job there. He hasn't so I'd liked to think we'll get someone in January. We'll see.
he's not. Would MON have brought in a defensive coach in the summer or would he have stuck it out with Walford and Robertson? I think Lambert is evolving. He's made mistakes. He's been unlucky at times. His team haven't performed, his tactics haven't always worked. It's just way too early in opinion for any of us to abandon ship.
Agree TV. Have to remember that this is only Lambert's 3rd season as a top flight manager. He's still learning.
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I don't believe Lambert is as stubborn as MON. The inquiry he made for Kioyate indicated it was a position he wanted to fill but the price quoted was too high. Maybe he also felt Tonev could do a job there. He hasn't so I'd liked to think we'll get someone in January. We'll see.
It isn't a question of stubbornness. The trouble is, he has a plan which he believes in, and which RL will back to the hilt. The January transfer window of last year was the test of their joint resolve. They were prepared to contemplate the very real threat of relegation rather than buckle.
Let us be honest: we are in this for better or worse. Most fans go along with it to a certain extent, but I would imagine our gates will drop quite considerably during the process, and I would say that they have built this into their plans.
As to the length of this process, if I may paraphrase Leon Trotksy on the subject of the geographical location of the felicitous paradise to his religious prison guard: "There is no precise information".
I like your style, but this Trotsky fella, when does he sign? Felicitous Paradise, is that a non league team? Sounds like Randy and Lambert have spent too much time in the Sauna.
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Felicitous Paradise is his porn star name.
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I'm fully behind PL, but the one disappointing thing i've seen in him is how he has missed the fact that our midfielders are very similar, good hard workers, quite tidy on the ball, but unable to dominate a game or make something happen, and the fact that we spent good money on a guy who's not gonna be a number one starter ( no disrespect to Kovak he may come good) seems to be wasted when a £7m midfielder would have been far more beneficial for us right now.
But isn't that the benefit of taking a long term view to transfers and building a sqaud? The right midfielder wasn't available at the right price, so he didn't buy one. The right striker (in his opinion) was available, so he did. It's not like he was only given 7m, had to use it on one player, and chose a striker over a midfielder. He has the money available for when he finds the right midfielder.
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I'm fully behind PL, but the one disappointing thing i've seen in him is how he has missed the fact that our midfielders are very similar, good hard workers, quite tidy on the ball, but unable to dominate a game or make something happen, and the fact that we spent good money on a guy who's not gonna be a number one starter ( no disrespect to Kovak he may come good) seems to be wasted when a £7m midfielder would have been far more beneficial for us right now.
But isn't that the benefit of taking a long term view to transfers and building a sqaud? The right midfielder wasn't available at the right price, so he didn't buy one. The right striker (in his opinion) was available, so he did. It's not like he was only given 7m, had to use it on one player, and chose a striker over a midfielder. He has the money available for when he finds the right midfielder.
This has long been my opinion on things, I just don't see any evidence of Lambert not being given the money he's asked for for fees. Wages may be another matter but I suspect that situation will change as well as we're now (according to the Trust meeting with Faulkner) within an acceptable level for wages. Once Given, Bent, Ireland and Nzogbia all leave we've got another ~£250k a week to play with which will help immensely.
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I have a suspicion we might be hunkering down to grind our way to a position of safety come February time, before springing to life with a more expansive game. I think Lambert is desperate for the players to avoid a brush with relegation.
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The players realise I think, that the no. 1 target for this season is to avoid a relegation battle. As long as they know we're mid table and on target to accomplish this, there are games they may drift through, such as happened on Saturday. Assuming a mid table finish is achieved, then next season they need to do better in order to keep the impovement going.
For this season, I only hope they can rouse themselves to try and give us a decent cup run. I pay to be entertained.
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I have a suspicion we might be hunkering down to grind our way to a position of safety come February time, before springing to life with a more expansive game. I think Lambert is desperate for the players to avoid a brush with relegation.
I agree with this. But i hoped that after our run of very hard fixtures we'd open up against some of the weaker sides.
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Once Given, Bent, Ireland and Nzogbia all leave we've got another ~£250k a week to play with which will help immensely.
Ireland = contract expires this season
How many more years have Hutton, Nzog, Given and Bent got?
The drop in wages could coincide with a Benteke sized transfer "war chest". It'll be interest to see what and how Lambert has planned for such a spending frenzy.
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Stan had an interview on the OS the other day. He put it far better than many of us could but he made a point that this will take time but the major thing is just how hard the players work. Because they're all in it together and working hard for the manager, there's a great foundation to build on. Our footy has been wretched at times, particularly in the last few weeks but last season we survived in some degree of style after a very difficult start. We now have a resoluteness at the back we didn't have last season and are going solidly in mid-table. We're not playing well but we're picking up points.
That for me is the major positive for me. We can work on finding the right system. We can work on improving our ball retention. The fact is we've made a lot of very basic errors and lacked composure (part youth, part tactical confusion) but these things with some work in training can improve. We've also seen that Lambert can be decisive and pro-active. But the group of players Lambert has assembled will all work themselves into the ground for him. You'd say the only one at the moment not putting the yards in is Benteke. He's our mercurial talent, every team can afford one player who doesn't quite muck in as much, but he showed last season, when in form he will also work hard. Everyone else busts a gut for Lambert. Team spirit is fantastic. I believe that is why we're in the position we're in, despite not being able to string 5 passes together. You can work on that though, whereas if you're a manager who hasn't got a grip of your dressing room, and players giving their all, it's nigh on impossible to come back from that.
I just think patience is the key, and honestly, I've had plenty of moans myself. It is bloody hard to watch at times, but the fact is, we're getting better at picking up results. We don't look like we'll struggle this year (touch wood). It would be nice to be better at home and better at keeping the ball, but at least we are sharing the goals a bit this season and losing Benteke didn't hamper us too much. There's a long way to go, but as long as Lambert keeps the same spirit and fine tunes the rest of our game, we'll be comfortably in the top half every year.
We might look at this season and think we look a little similar to McLeish's side initially (before it went downhill for him). Players did work quite hard for him compared to Houllier, but the difference was he still had a lot of overpaid players who didn't do enough. When push came to shove we ran out of fight and McLeish didn't appear to have the dressing room from Feb onward, in the same way as earlier in his season (when new manager effect was still there).
Houllier was something of a man management disaster too. Lots of O Neill cast offs who never gave 100% for him. We suffered because of it, despite his good ideas and intentions.
I don't think you can put a price on how hard Lambert's group works for him. We can also see the benefit of his approach to the squad he inherited. He very quickly identified who was going to give this club 110% and who wasn't. The outgoings so far and the bomb squad largely reflect that. In the case of Given that's more a financial thing. Again, he's past his best of course so we can't warrant the wages. Everyone that Lambert calls upon earns their money. They're paid sensibly and they work hard when they come in. As out of his depth as JB is, you can't fault his effort. If we can add more good quality to the general good attitude of our squad I think we'll be a good side in a year or two. As others have said once Bent, Ireland, Zogbia etc are gone, we then able to speculate a little more, but Lambert undoubtedly will spend any extra on players who will give everything.
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James Nursey said it in that piece last week - "quietly confident". That's the impression I was getting even in the really bad times last season. Whether it's justified or just wishful thinking only time will tell but right this minute we look a hard team to beat and one who will never stop battling.
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This time last season:
Aston Villa 14 3 4 7 11 22 -11 13 Position 17th
Right now...
Aston Villa 14 5 4 5 16 16 0 19 Position 10th
Scored 5 more, conceded 5 less, 6 points better off and Benteke has been injured and out of form since the 5th game of the season, and many of the players have struggled for form.
I would say given the wage and finance, Lambert is doing a pretty good job this season so far.
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Obviously it may not happen like this, but if players start hitting form, particularly Benteke, we could get even better. A lot depends on Vlaar though. I think he's been our key man this season and the big difference from last term. His form has been a hell of a lot better and he's also helped bring the best out of Clark. I hope he's not out too long, and furthermore, hopefully he can stay injury free beyond that. I'd seriously be considering an experienced center back in January to give us another option. Baker worries me a lot. Clark and Baker together, minus a chaperone is frightening. As much as Clark has been brilliant, if he's the senior man in the backline and is the one having to worry about what the other 3 are doing, I'm not sure he can do that and remain as concentrated in his own game as he has been. I might be wrong, but we may start seeing the Clark of last season.
Playing badly and picking up results is good though. As Soton showed too. Possession and nice passing means nothing without penetration. We won a game with less than 30% possession.
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James Nursey said it in that piece last week - "quietly confident". That's the impression I was getting even in the really bad times last season. Whether it's justified or just wishful thinking only time will tell but right this minute we look a hard team to beat and one who will never stop battling.
We had a prolonged, very poor spell last season.
It's hard to look at recent performances - not results, performances - and not conclude that we're not playing well currently. I know the argument about only one statistic counting (with ref to the Soton game) and it's true, but the fact is, if we continue to pass that badly (less than 50% of our passes completed last night - the lowest of any team in any match in the five major European leagues this season), then we are going to struggle to produce our best form.
Having said that, though, if this really is a bad patch, we seem to be picking up plenty of points.
If we go on to improve this season, I'd rather we launched that from our current berth of 10th than from 17th or wherever we were prior to improving last year.
We've clearly improved considerably in areas where we were weak last year - we defend better, we are far more resilient, we don't let our heads drop if we concede. To counterbalance that, our passing is significantly worse, as is our ball retention and we look blunter up front.
If we can improve those areas where we have struggled in this current spell (and there's no reason why we shouldn't - look at some of our early season performances) then I think we could have a very decent second half of the season.
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I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but I don't think we've dropped any points whenever we've taken the lead. This can be cantered by the number of slow starts we've had and we've had to chase the game to get any points. Either way, the team spirit to come back or the ability to hold onto what we have are very good building blocks to future success.
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The latest from James Nursey:
Paul Lambert's quiet revolution at Aston Villa is built on investing in individuals and giving them a chance
A stunning 3-2 away win at Southampton means Aston Villa fans and neutrals are starting to wake up to Paul Lambert's quiet revolution. I wrote last week how I have been impressed with Villa's steady - if unspectacular - progress under the Scot despite not spending big. He has assembled a competitive, promising side on the cheap with a good future ahead of them collectively and individually.
But it is only when you get an impressive win that the majority of people probably start to acknowledge Villa's progress. Victory on the South Coast does not mean Villa are now going to definitely qualify for Europe after five games unbeaten. But they have clearly improved significantly from last season's relegation battle and various embarrassing thumpings. They currently stand 10th and have 19 points from 14 games which is a decent haul given they came 15th last term with 41.
I am enjoying watching the likes of Ashley Westwood, Fabian Delph, Leandro Bacuna, Karim El Ahmadi, Ron Vlaar and Co improve from week to week. Their steps - or strides in the case of Brad Guzan and Christian Benteke last season - gives Villa genuine hope for the future. The players deserve respect for their efforts but Lambert is the key to encouraging them to flourish.
Lambert recently gave a rare glimpse behind the mask as to what really makes him tick. The usually deadpan manager usually tries to give as little away as possible in his dry press conferences on camera.
He certainly never reveals his methods. He even went to watch a club train abroad recently in the international break but refused to name who it was despite being repeatedly asked!
Yet last week he was talking up Westwood to the press (probably to deliberately boost the midfielder's belief and confidence) and in a lengthy discussion he casually mentioned: "I get great enjoyment seeing players each do well for themselves, not just Westy.
"I get great enjoyment seeing the lads make a name for themselves and trying to achieve something." It occurred to me this is surely the principle of Lambert's management. Because by putting the emphasis on individuals to better themselves and improve, the net result is the whole team therefore improves too.
That is what we saw at Norwich where he guided the Canaries from League One into the Premier League - and kept them there. As a result dedicated pros like Russell Martin are now well-paid top-flight players and internationals, who otherwise might have been languishing in the lower leagues had they not got a break. It also helps explain why Lambert takes players whether from abroad or lower down the leagues and gives them a platform to better themselves.
The consequence is then usually a win/win scenario with the player improving, earning more, playing high up the leagues and Lambert's side improving too. I believe that is what we are witnessing at Villa this season where Lambert's collection of "humble" players - a quality he likes to emphasise - are continuing to grow. Their resulting loyalty and hunger also means they have a strong stomach for a fight as underlined recently at the likes of West Brom and Saints.
I am not getting carried away as creditable top-flight finish of somewhere between eighth and 12th remains what is realistic and what I always expected this term. There is still work to be done of course to rectify the home form. And Benteke has gone off the boil but I am sure he will come good again for Villa and in the meantime other players are starting to make a name for themselves too as Lambert helps progress their careers and in turn the club - on a much cheaper, sustainable financial model.
Check out all the latest News, Sport & Celeb gossip at Mirror.co.uk http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/paul-lamberts-quiet-revolution-aston-2893016#ixzz2mby2i3sV
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James Nursey said it in that piece last week - "quietly confident". That's the impression I was getting even in the really bad times last season. Whether it's justified or just wishful thinking only time will tell but right this minute we look a hard team to beat and one who will never stop battling.
We had a prolonged, very poor spell last season.
It's hard to look at recent performances - not results, performances - and not conclude that we're not playing well currently. I know the argument about only one statistic counting (with ref to the Soton game) and it's true, but the fact is, if we continue to pass that badly (less than 50% of our passes completed last night - the lowest of any team in any match in the five major European leagues this season), then we are going to struggle to produce our best form.
Having said that, though, if this really is a bad patch, we seem to be picking up plenty of points.
If we go on to improve this season, I'd rather we launched that from our current berth of 10th than from 17th or wherever we were prior to improving last year.
We've clearly improved considerably in areas where we were weak last year - we defend better, we are far more resilient, we don't let our heads drop if we concede. To counterbalance that, our passing is significantly worse, as is our ball retention and we look blunter up front.
If we can improve those areas where we have struggled in this current spell (and there's no reason why we shouldn't - look at some of our early season performances) then I think we could have a very decent second half of the season.
I'd say that's a pretty fair and accurate assessment. Last night was a good result, but the performance and particularly the passing weren't up to much. We showed a lot of character, but we need to start showing more than that to get sustained good results.
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I think our passing should improve. We've seen previously that the players are capable of keeping the ball better than they have done. It's all very basic errors. 5 yard passes going astray. We just need to calm it down a bit sometimes and just show some composure. Part of our problem has been Westwoods erratic form. He was such a calming influence between feb-may. Always available, always in space and always calm on the ball and rarely wasted it. I've seen more aggression and more running from him this season, which has been good (aside from a patch earlier when he seemed intent on getting sent off), but we need him back to his composed best. He is however, starting to improve. Westwood earlier this season seemed to be hiding a bit. He's now getting a bit more confidence back and making himself available again. Hopefully with that his passing and our passing will improve.
KEA frustrates the hell out of me. He's got some quality. He's shown at times some nous and makes good runs in the box. If we pick him out more, he could perhaps score half a dozen goals this season. He's also good a bit of quality in the final third, as his cross showed. But he's got to stop going missing in games. You'd barely know he was playing for 90% of the last couple of games.
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I have to say it's great we're in the top 10 despite our front trio largely misfiring since August. Shows there are more strings to our bow than just Benteke winning us games every week as seemed the case for the last 3 months of last season.
Defensively we're I think 7th in the league and that's from having a tough run although it could all go wrong if Ron's out for a while.
Really this team is maturing and is beginning to develop some good mental strength, I thought we held out in injury time reasonably comfortably last night which has been a major issue previously.
Just need a bit more flair in there now.
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I think my biggest concern is that we haven't played well for a while now. We have managed to get some results, but we've not played anywhere near the standard we reached at times last year. Lambert needs to address this or results like today won't be an isolated incident.
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Just like Sunderland there are going to be shit games. Like everyone I hope this doesn't last much longer because it's fucking murder to watch.
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
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What worries me immensely is the way we set out to play. I genuinely cannot remember a Villa side so hopeless in retaining the ball. As soon as we are pressed its hoofed away. Our possession stats are embarrassing. I do not believe that these players can suddenly become more progressive.
Is there a point when a Stoke/Pulis moment comes? Can PL move us forward, because the budget issues don't cut it anymore, we should be more organised, drilled and competent than we are.
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
I think this is about performances, no-one is denying the results have been ok overall. However the performances have been horrible, look at Wednesday we got a result and a good one but we played really poorly. If you play the majority of your matches with less than 40% possession you'll probably lose most of them.
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
A single line to send a chill right through you.
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
So? We're not going to win the league or finish high enough to play in Europe, so why not play to entertain. The team is so fucking boring.
Where has the team from the end of last season gone?!?!
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Villa actually remind me a bit of the England cricket team at the moment, although England have reached much greater heights. Throughout the summer and before that there were signs that England weren't performing, but because results were still going our way a lot of people chose to ignore that and trotted out stuff like 'we won the series 3-0 imagine what we'd do if we played well.' Now look at England, getting hammered by Australia with continued poor displays. You can only go on winning for so long if you keep playing poorly.
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That's the thing with transition... it's a journey. The players have actually gone backwards this year... Vlaar is the only one that has improved... and even he is only an average premiership footballer.
With the cost of the players and the lack of pedigree of so many of them we will just bob along in mid-table with the odd flirt with relegation...
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
So? We're not going to win the league or finish high enough to play in Europe, so why not play to entertain. The team is so fucking boring.
Where has the team from the end of last season gone?!?!
I think there are a number of factors, a few players clearly off form most notably Benteke; injuries preventing us playing any sort of settled side; the opposition knowing a bit more about how we play.
Just hoping we see a similar post Christmas improvement as last season.
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
So? We're not going to win the league or finish high enough to play in Europe, so why not play to entertain. The team is so fucking boring.
Where has the team from the end of last season gone?!?!
It is a bit of a mystery I admit. I have rewatched some of last seasons games, we really did play better and defended a lot worse. I am really not sure why things have changed.
I just hope we dont have our traditional christmas collapse. I really would like to enjoy the holiday football for a change.
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
So? We're not going to win the league or finish high enough to play in Europe, so why not play to entertain. The team is so fucking boring.
Where has the team from the end of last season gone?!?!
I think there are a number of factors, a few players clearly off form most notably Benteke; injuries preventing us playing any sort of settled side; the opposition knowing a bit more about how we play.
Just hoping we see a similar post Christmas improvement as last season.
Exactly.
To answer the question of the thread, yes, this is what transition looks like. Sometimes it will be great (Arsenal away, 2nd half of Man City at home, 2nd half of Baggies away, etc) and sometimes it will be horrible. This is still a team of kids put together on very little money playing in the richest league in the world. If we stay up without being involved in a relegation battle this year then that's further progress. Then next year we can push on again.
People need to stop being so impatient. You're not going to turn a relegation threatened team in to Barcelona overnight. Even Man City took four years to win the league after the Arabs arrived and threw over half a billion quid at the team. I'd love to see the reaction of some on here if we were in that situation given the complaints after less than 18 months when we've been trying to build a team from scratch.
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Traditional Christmas collapse?
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First half possession was 50% -not exactly 'hoofing the ball anywhere', then.
Haven't seen he stats for after the break but I can't imagine they were significantly better/worse.
Still, at least the folks complaining about our possession stats at Southampton will have been cheered by this 'improvement'...
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
I don't believe that for a second. I cannot believe a manager that as a player played and won at the highest level have suddenly settled for outright mediocrity for the remainder of his career.
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
So? We're not going to win the league or finish high enough to play in Europe, so why not play to entertain. The team is so fucking boring.
Where has the team from the end of last season gone?!?!
I think there are a number of factors, a few players clearly off form most notably Benteke; injuries preventing us playing any sort of settled side; the opposition knowing a bit more about how we play.
Just hoping we see a similar post Christmas improvement as last season.
I thought last season quite frequently when we didn't have the ball, we'd harry the opposition, chase them down, and try to get it back. We'd then try to use it.
This season there has been way less than that.
I appreciate that Benteke has been off form, as has Weimann, but I don't know what the answer is there - is that really a satisfactory explanation for anything? Isn't the manager supposed to get them in form? It's not like something that just happens and you can't influence it, surely?
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
I don't believe that for a second. I cannot believe a manager that as a player played and won at the highest level have suddenly settled for outright mediocrity for the remainder of his career.
What he's aiming for and what's he able to achieve might not be the same thing.
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
I don't believe that for a second. I cannot believe a manager that as a player played and won at the highest level have suddenly settled for outright mediocrity for the remainder of his career.
Plus there was the Norwich chairman saying that Lambert was the most ambitious and driven person that he'd ever met. No way is he going to settle for what we are now.
We've played pretty badly all season to be honest (although we have learnt how to grind out results instead of just capitulating) but I accepted a long time ago that if we're going to go about squad building in this way, then its going to take a while. I'll wait and see where we are at the end of the season before drawing any conclusions on Lambert's tenure so far.
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
I don't believe that for a second. I cannot believe a manager that as a player played and won at the highest level have suddenly settled for outright mediocrity for the remainder of his career.
Plus there was the Norwich chairman saying that Lambert was the most ambitious and driven person that he'd ever met. No way is he going to settle for what we are now.
I've heard at least two journalists who report on Norwich say that for three years the one thing that could have made Norwich was great was Lambert and since he has gone it's just a case of making do and treading water.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he's right for us, but I'd imagine that what we're doing now isn't the culmination of his plan.
And I'm sure that even the most anti-Lambert person would have to accept that at the very least Lambert gives the impression that there is a plan.
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As much as I hope I'm wrong I don't think this is transition, this could be it.
I don't believe that for a second. I cannot believe a manager that as a player played and won at the highest level have suddenly settled for outright mediocrity for the remainder of his career.
Plus there was the Norwich chairman saying that Lambert was the most ambitious and driven person that he'd ever met. No way is he going to settle for what we are now.
I've heard at least two journalists who report on Norwich say that for three years the one thing that could have made Norwich was great was Lambert and since he has gone it's just a case of making do and treading water.
That doesn't necessarily mean that he's right for us, but I'd imagine that what we're doing now isn't the culmination of his plan.
And I'm sure that even the most anti-Lambert person would have to accept that at the very least Lambert gives the impression that there is a plan.
I have think that he believes slow and steady wins the race. Thing is slow and steady isn't going to win you many friends. I hope at some point there will come a time where we decide to accelerate again and get in players that moves the ultimate objective needle a little faster.
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And I'm sure that even the most anti-Lambert person would have to accept that at the very least Lambert gives the impression that there is a plan.
I wish he'd tell the players what this plan was...
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I think we badly miss players for the present at the expense of prospects for the future. People have mentioned it on the post match thread, but we seem to be too focused on the future. Martinez appears to have the right balance at Everton, he has some really promising players but with some experienced heads. I really think we've missed a trick there and I don't believe Everton's budget can outstrip us by that much.
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toward the end of last season Lambert had us playing much better football and we could see the plan working, Benteke was our main man and the players around him lifted their game. For me the summer undid a lot of the gain, Lambert again went bargain basement but this time with little success, the players he bought in such as Tonev are a long way short of being Prem standard and others are getting no game time at all, not even on the subs bench. If Lambert had bought a quality midfielder and forward to support the improvement we would have been better and less unsettled.
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I think we badly miss players for the present at the expense of prospects for the future. People have mentioned it on the post match thread, but we seem to be too focused on the future. Martinez appears to have the right balance at Everton, he has some really promising players but with some experienced heads. I really think we've missed a trick there and I don't believe Everton's budget can outstrip us by that much.
Everton are just significantly further along the path than we are. Kenwright has been pleading poverty for years and Moyes had to run a very tight budget. Credit where credit's due, he did this very well, using a good scouting network to pick up cheap players from overseas and bringing talent through to Prem standard. Martinez has taken what was already an established top 8 side and carried on the same work.
On the other hand Lambert picked up a squad littered with overpaid, undermotivated, seasoned pros and an annual wage bill that was unsustainable. He's had to rip that to pieces and start from scratch. We're not going to match Everton overnight.
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I think we badly miss players for the present at the expense of prospects for the future. People have mentioned it on the post match thread, but we seem to be too focused on the future. Martinez appears to have the right balance at Everton, he has some really promising players but with some experienced heads. I really think we've missed a trick there and I don't believe Everton's budget can outstrip us by that much.
Everton are just significantly further along the path than we are. Kenwright has been pleading poverty for years and Moyes had to run a very tight budget. Credit where credit's due, he did this very well, using a good scouting network to pick up cheap players from overseas and bringing talent through to Prem standard. Martinez has taken what was already an established top 8 side and carried on the same work.
On the other hand Lambert picked up a squad littered with overpaid, undermotivated, seasoned pros and an annual wage bill that was unsustainable. He's had to rip that to pieces and start from scratch. We're not going to match Everton overnight.
I'm not saying we can match Everton overnight, but Everton's approach is the correct one. You mix upcoming, ambitious talent with the right sort of experienced players. There's no reason why we couldn't be doing that now.
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Barry in place of Westwood.
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There is no plan is there.
Every game is the same non style of play.
Every game the free kicks are the same.
Every game the corners are the same.
Every game the throw ins are the same.
Every game the tactics are the same.
We never do anything different on the pitch. There doesn't seem to be any signs of things being worked on in training. How many times has Lambert tinkered with the team or formation and out thought another manager? How many times has Lambert made a baffling selection or substitution and we've been fucking hammered?
I think the guy is absolute shit and he's spent shit too. For anyone asking who could do a better job, well we play the worst football in the division apart from fat sams lot so i'd say the majority of the divisions managers could do a better job anyway. 50% pass completion? You might aswell toss a fucking coin, heads we give you the ball tails we keep it for another 5 seconds.
Think small and appoint Norwich and Blues small time managers and that's what you become.
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Playing devil's advocate here, but why are we necessarily even on the same path as Everton in any case?
Maybe they're just a better side than we are, in which case, you could say that 'further along the path' thing about any team significantly better than us, surely?
They have certainly done a significantly better job of managing their assets over the last few years than we have (look at the wastage on our squad).
Don't get me wrong, I still like Lambert, I think his principles are sound, and I don't believe he actively wants us to play such a disjointed style of football - I don't think, for example, that he sends them out there and tells them to misplace simple passes, to deliver abysmal corners, or not to use space or chase the ball down, not for a second, but the flip side of that is that there has to be some evidence that he can get us playing better at some point.
There have been flashes of it - a half against Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea away - but, to my mind, not enough of it so far this season.
I'm not suggesting for a nanosecond that we should replace him, but the flip side of our backing is that he has got to get us playing better at some point, and hopefully soon, or I think that huge well of goodwill he had all of last season and most of this is going to start to get depleted quicker.
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I think the guy is absolute shit
Bollux
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Can somebody change the title of this thread and replace 'transition' with 'train crash'-
Oh behave you drama queen! We're 10th in the league, 3 points behind Man United after almost half the season!!
The usual tosh expected from those burying their heads in the sand. I could understand it if you never watched us play and just looked at the league table once a week but I assume that's not the case. Right now we're like watching an accident is slow motion.
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Today was the second time in a week we achieved a result worse than the corresponding fixture last season (where we lost 1-0 to a late Chris Baird goal, for those of you who'd bleached it from your memory). Not including the promoted or relegated teams from either season, we have bettered 11 out of the 13 results we've had the chance to this season. If that's transition, I'd say it's pretty good - it's certainly better than the year under McLeish where relegation actually had an upside.
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This guy will kill the crowds anyway. There wont be 35,000 people coming to watch this bollocks next season. What is the brand? ''On the cheap'' That's what they are selling a brand.
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We've also played all of the 8 (and as of next week, all of the top 9) and are yet to play Swansea, Stoke and Crystal Palace, and after pretty much half the season we're pretty much middle of the middle. That's transition from the despair, misery and nihilism of the previous years.
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We've also played all of the 8 (and as of next week, all of the top 9) and are yet to play Swansea, Stoke and Crystal Palace, and after pretty much half the season we're pretty much middle of the middle. That's transition from the despair, misery and nihilism of the previous years.
We're more resilient at the back, there's no doubt about that.
The flip side is we're not much better than last season (ie all of last season, not just the better bit right at the end) elsewhere. Unfortunately, it's reflected in us looking like we can't do the basics - pass the ball - which is always going to get people more annoyed.
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No really, crap.
The Villa at home, what a draw.
PL's team. We will totally pwn Man Utd.
I will be there
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Traditional Christmas collapse?
I was wallowing in self pity and misery.
Allow me to exaggerate for effect.
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We've also played all of the 8 (and as of next week, all of the top 9) and are yet to play Swansea, Stoke and Crystal Palace, and after pretty much half the season we're pretty much middle of the middle. That's transition from the despair, misery and nihilism of the previous years.
We're more resilient at the back, there's no doubt about that.
The flip side is we're not much better than last season (ie all of last season, not just the better bit right at the end) elsewhere. Unfortunately, it's reflected in us looking like we can't do the basics - pass the ball - which is always going to get people more annoyed.
True, but on reflection that was always likely to happen. Last season we were far too open and even naive, and though it was entertaining it was all rather risky. This season is rather risk-averse and thus not exciting, but it's a reaction which seems to be keeping us away from relegation trouble for the first time since MON left, and we're still exciting on occasion. Provided we do stay away from trouble, next season will hopefully be where we start to see the idea of the finished project.
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I also think there's a tendency, when comparing us to last season, to really just compare us to the most recent part of it - towards the end, when we had a run of some form.
Agreed - whereas this time last season was among the worst times to be a Villa fan in recent years. That is a real improvement.
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Does anyone actually enjoy watching Villa play anymore? I enjoyed the Arsenal game this season but I can honestly say I haven't enjoyed a single game since. We're quite awful to watch and have been for ages now.
Just what are we actually in transition to be? I hope to god Lerner has some kind of positive plan but I have grave doubts.
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Does anyone actually enjoy watching Villa play anymore? I enjoyed the Arsenal game this season but I can honestly say I haven't enjoyed a single game since. We're quite awful to watch and have been for ages now.
Just what are we actually in transition to be? I hope to god Lerner has some kind of positive plan but I have grave doubts.
Everton first half
Chelsea
Cardiff the last 20 minutes
West Brom last 30 minutes
15 minutes here and there in the other matches. All the rest have been pretty appalling to watch.
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Does anyone actually enjoy watching Villa play anymore? I enjoyed the Arsenal game this season but I can honestly say I haven't enjoyed a single game since.
I enjoyed Chelsea away. Even though we lost.
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I think the last 3 months of the season raised expectation beyond realism, mainly due to Benteke Gabby and Weimann looking like they could take most sides apart. Unfortunately apart from Gabby, the others have not turned up really. The biggest issue though is the shape going forward, as Gabby and Weimann are never in the wide positions you would hope for them to be in to exploit a side, and we are too similar in the centre of midfield. 2-3 players would transform us though, and at the moment position wise Lambert has improved us. There is a growing hype about the performances, and he is becoming more and more disliked which is worrying, I do hope the support stays with him. He has a track record of attacking sides, including us last season, and I reckon privately the way we are playing at times will be really annoying him and his staff.
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Playing like we have in recent weeks was always bound to eventually come unstuck. Lets not kid ourselves, we've been lucky over the course of our unbeaten run. We might claim to have been a little unlucky in games like Chelsea and a lesser extent Everton, fair enough, but the last couple of games in particular our passing has been incredibly poor. We've might far too many unforced errors and looked like a complete disorganised mess in midfield and attack especially. Now without Vlaar we look awful defensively too.
We ran out of luck today. Decisions went against us (yes that's bad reffing, but we'll get weeks where we get them our way).
Lamberts got to seriously do something quickly about our poor passing, movement and lack of a clear, effective system. We also need to spend in January.
People keep saying that we're 10th, we're safe as houses etc. But we're coming to a stage in the season we often struggle in because we've never been a big squad side for one, and certainly at the moment lack enough genuine quality. Vlaar missing is a huge miss for us. We could well go on a good run and win 2-3 on the spin, but honestly, I think given how much we've ridden our luck lately, we're more likely to lose 3-4 on the bounce.
I'd cash in on Benteke while we can get good money for him. Then invest 20-30 mill in 4-5 decent players. I actually felt today we missed Kozak today. He's got good movement in the box and he's got good work-rate, and he's also in some kind of scoring form. Tekkers looks awful at the moment and not close to getting back to his best. He's not working hard enough either. It's not purely confidence, though that itself is shot.
A bit of experience in midfield is absolutely essential. We're like headless chickens. Play like we have in the last 3 games, very poorly, and we've drawn, lost and won. That's quite lucky given how bad we've been. Keep playing like that and pretty seen we'll be losing more. It's asking for trouble.
Lambert did get the defence in some sort of shape though, so I'm hoping he'll finally sort out dire midfield out. New players, coaching, tactics are required.
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Does anyone actually enjoy watching Villa play anymore? I enjoyed the Arsenal game this season but I can honestly say I haven't enjoyed a single game since.
I enjoyed Chelsea away. Even though we lost.
Yes, forgot about that one. Felt quite positive after the first 2 games but after that we quickly reverted back to type and since then it's been painful to watch. Even when we win it's by the skin of our teeth. It's just not good enough.
The fans have been incredibly patient with Lerner so it's about time he actually started to invest in a few PL standard players and give the signing of lower league ones a rest.
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I think the last 3 months of the season raised expectation beyond realism, mainly due to Benteke Gabby and Weimann looking like they could take most sides apart. Unfortunately apart from Gabby, the others have not turned up really. The biggest issue though is the shape going forward, as Gabby and Weimann are never in the wide positions you would hope for them to be in to exploit a side, and we are too similar in the centre of midfield. 2-3 players would transform us though, and at the moment position wise Lambert has improved us. There is a growing hype about the performances, and he is becoming more and more disliked which is worrying, I do hope the support stays with him. He has a track record of attacking sides, including us last season, and I reckon privately the way we are playing at times will be really annoying him and his staff.
I felt Weimann was a fill in or stop gap last season as a right forward. This season he's really struggled there again. He could be a good center forward one day if he plays up top consistently. I'd give him a run playing off Kozak, through the middle. Carry on playing Andi on the right and he'll end up in the Championship. He's not good enough in that position long term. He doesn't have the technique or skill.
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Not seeing anything new, here.
UTV!
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We just need a creative player in there, he won't solve everything and we wouldn't suddenly turn into top 6 contenders.
I remember 99/2000 season, we were plodding along and in crap form, not too dissimilar to this period. We signed Carbone on loan and together with Merson those two sparking us into life we were good to watch for the rest of that season, reaching that infamous cup final.
We have so many players of the same ilk in central midfield, run around a bit, tackle a bit and pass sideways a bit but we don't bleedin need three of those all doing that, the watercarrier role.
Find someone who actually relishes sliding throughballs through a packed defence for forwards.
Hatem Ben Arfa ripped us to shreds at VP earlier this season, the best opposition player I've seen at VP this year, he can't even get in the team at the minute. The top teams are overflowing with them.
We have none. It would make us better to watch and maybe even win us some more home games. It would be a start.
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We just need a creative player in there, he won't solve everything and we wouldn't suddenly turn into top 6 contenders.
I remember 99/2000 season, we were plodding along and in crap form, not too dissimilar to this period. We signed Carbone on loan and together with Merson those two sparking us into life we were good to watch for the rest of that season, reaching that infamous cup final.
We have so many players of the same ilk in central midfield, run around a bit, tackle a bit and pass sideways a bit but we don't bleedin need three of those all doing that, the watercarrier role.
Find someone who actually relishes sliding throughballs through a packed defence for forwards.
Hatem Ben Arfa ripped us to shreds at VP earlier this season, the best opposition player I've seen at VP this year, he can't even get in the team at the minute. The top teams are overflowing with them.
We have none. It would make us better to watch and maybe even win us some more home games. It would be a start.
It's the single thing which would make the biggest difference.
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I think selling Benteke to raise cash for a couple of good midfielders, a defender and obviously a replacement for the big man, could help us no end. I think with his form as it is, I'd be tempted to cash in on Jan, because if he's off kilter for the rest of the season, we all know he's going in the summer anyway. If he's had a bad season we'll be lucky to get 10 mill for him. Right now we could still sell him for 20-25 mill in Jan.
I think we need to spend 30 million to cement ourselves as solid midtable. In midfield in particular we need a number 10, but also another decent CM too. KEA and Westwood aren't first team quality.
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I think selling Benteke to raise cash for a couple of good midfielders, a defender and obviously a replacement for the big man, could help us no end. I think with his form as it is, I'd be tempted to cash in on Jan, because if he's off kilter for the rest of the season, we all know he's going in the summer anyway. If he's had a bad season we'll be lucky to get 10 mill for him. Right now we could still sell him for 20-25 mill in Jan.
Eh?
If he has a bad season, his value will go down, but if we sell him in three weeks time, after having an extended barren period, he'll be worth as much as he ever was? Not sure how that works.
The other problem is that you're suggesting we use the money from him to buy four players. That's one player off and four on to the wage bill, which is going to be problematic. Not to mention the idea of doing all that in January, which is probably the biggest obstacle.
We don't need to spend huge amounts to improve us by a decent amount.
We've failed to score in six of our last nine matches, which is the period in which Benteke has not been producing. It'd be madness to gamble on replacing him effectively in January when we're struggling to score goals.
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I think selling Benteke to raise cash for a couple of good midfielders, a defender and obviously a replacement for the big man, could help us no end. I think with his form as it is, I'd be tempted to cash in on Jan, because if he's off kilter for the rest of the season, we all know he's going in the summer anyway. If he's had a bad season we'll be lucky to get 10 mill for him. Right now we could still sell him for 20-25 mill in Jan.
Eh?
If he has a bad season, his value will go down, but if we sell him in three weeks time, after having an extended barren period, he'll be worth as much as he ever was? Not sure how that works.
The other problem is that you're suggesting we use the money from him to buy four players. That's one player off and four on to the wage bill, which is going to be problematic. Not to mention the idea of doing all that in January, which is probably the biggest obstacle.
We don't need to spend huge amounts to improve us by a decent amount.
We've failed to score in six of our last nine matches, which is the period in which Benteke has not been producing. It'd be madness to gamble on replacing him effectively in January when we're struggling to score goals.
I think in Jan, inflated fees and all we could still get someone to pay 20 mill for Benteke. However if it continues all season (it won't I don't think to be honest) then he'll likely be sat on his arse in the world cup while someone else shines, and his value in the summer won't be as much.
Obviously it hasn't quite worked for Spurs yet, but I think Benteke could fund 3-4 decent standard players. We could get a front man in and particularly in midfield, a couple of decent players could make us a lot better, and help our forwards score. There's goals in Kojak, and play Andi as a center forward, and he could be a different player I think.
Of course if he (I hope) hits a purple patch and bangs in 5 goals before Jan, then I'll change my mind, but he looks so off the boil it's frightening. I'd have Kozak in the 11 for Utd (if he's fit).
As for wages. Well we've got to speculate a little more again I feel. Plus Ireland is going to be gone. Shay and Bent will probably get moves in the summer too. N'Zog will have takers.
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But you're not going to get that number of players in in January. That's never going to happen.
Benteke is still a very good player. He's having a tricky patch having come back from injury, talking of being able to get someone to give us 20m for him in january is absolutely nuts.
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We'd also have to replace Benteke which will cost a lot. It's not like we have anybody to do what an in form Benteke can. We need him back to form asap and we also need a creative playmaker and a centre half. Then things will look much rosier.
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But you're not going to get that number of players in in January. That's never going to happen.
Benteke is still a very good player. He's having a tricky patch having come back from injury, talking of being able to get someone to give us 20m for him in january is absolutely nuts.
I think Moyes could be that desperate. It's not a case of actively seeking someone to pay it, but if there are enquiries and we name a price, someone could pay it in Jan. Someones going to pay silly money for someone in the upcoming window.
I'm not sure Bentekes hearts in it at the moment. He's not putting the effort in. A big part of his problem at the moment is confidence certainly, but the lack of effort is the worst part.
Maybe I've just seen too many of our better players leave and want to get it over with as soon as possible. I don't know.
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We'd also have to replace Benteke which will cost a lot. It's not like we have anybody to do what an in form Benteke can. We need him back to form asap and we also need a creative playmaker and a centre half. Then things will look much rosier.
If we have the money to get this playmaker and center half then selling Benteke doesn't have to be considered. At the moment our finances are anyones guess. We thought it was belt tightening time under Houllier, then we spunked 24 million on Darren Bent almost out the blue.
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Some managers work in such a way that their teams start the season like a bullet out of a barrel but sink downwards by the second half of the season (Curbishley, MON, even Wenger), whereas others are the reverse (Ferguson, Martinez, Moyes). Going on last season, Lambert appears to be the latter, and he deserves at least a second chance (it's only his second season, for goodness' etc) to prove this to be the case - and, looked at neutrally, if the second half to the season is better than the first we're almost certain to finish in the top half. Which would be good.
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Folks lend a hand in a hell hole.
I am watching Spinal Tap. It seems apposite.
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Selling Benteke would equate to the very height of lunacy. You don't ever sell historically strongstocks when they are at a level lower than normal. Benteke is a blue chipper and he'll come good again. Now is the very time to hold tight, ride it out because he still has every ounce of talent that wrought havoc on the PL last season.
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We all have to face reality until someone with very deep pockets comes along the manager is limited on wages. What does puzzle me though is Westwood continuing to take the corner kicks i really don't get it, they are all floaters, we must have someone better.
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Last season benteke was a newcomer -as was michu , defenders hadn't faced them before and found them difficult - now teams know his strengths and will try to combat him - he is still a class player and will score goals at the top level for sure but talk of selling him in January is pie in the sky .
I wouldn't be surprised to see him depart in the summer and I expect bigger clubs than spurs to be after him - lets get him back scoring and enjoy him while we can .
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The biggest indictment of Lambert's reign is that the players look badly coached. Most players seem to have no idea what to do when they get the ball and as many have commented our movement off the ball is pathetic. I dont see a distinct style of play that Lambert is trying to employ. Yesterday particularly in the second half our back four and keeper took turns on who could kick the ball the longest. We also swap between formation on a game to game basis with little success.
I remember the game v Spurs under McLeish, where he played Hutton in midfield and we were a disgrace. Kevin Keegan was particularly scathing at half time of the Villa approach, saying Villa fans wouldnt accept such tactics or lack of ambition etc. We were actually 8th in the league at the time. If we werent going to accept such a crude approach then why are many supporters looking the other way now? That season turned to absolute sh*te only when Dunne, Bent and Petrov got injured but the correct decision to remove the manager was taken regardless. That style of football should still be seen as unacceptable.
I really dont think Lambert has improved things at all from McLeish. He may point to the lack of funds available but if there was money to give the likes of Benteke a big pay rise and 7m available for Kozak, then there was money to bring in the likes of Gareth Barry on loan. Everton's approach is far more sensible than ours. If they cant afford a player then some clever loans will do. Before a World Cup, there is umpteen experienced players who could have come in on a short term contract to improve us, yet Lambert has gone with a different approach. Watching Tonev yesterday it was scary how far out of his depth he is right now. QPR managed to get Assou Ekotto on loan, surely we could have bought him instead of buying Luna. The squad has far too many physically weak players who wouldnt break wind, surely this could have been rectified in the summer.
Really hoping in January that we can bring players in that can make us watchable again. Looks like Moyes will be sending a good few towards the exit door, Young would a great addition but the likes of Ferdinand might even be gettable on a short deal. Rodwell is going nowhere at City, Lescott is gettable. De Bruyne, Ba, Bertrand maybe at Chelsea. Kaboul, Naughton, Dawson, Sigurdsson at Spurs. Plenty of good players out there at the top clubs that need a change and we should be kicking down the door trying to get them in.
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We do, in fact, have a better dead-ball taker than Ashley Westwood.
His name is Leandro Bacuna.
Quite mystifying!
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It's been said before and probably will again, but I'd like to see some of our more talented youngsters get some game time. The likes of Johnson, Grealish, Robinson, Carruthers. I also wouldn't mind seeing Gardner get a go either. He's just getting back to fitness now. It's about time he showed what the fuss is about.
I'd fancy them to do better than players like Helenius and Bowery. I don't think one of our better youth prospects could come in and do much worse than KEA has at times either. We've got to do anything to inject a bit of flair, quality and creativity.
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A worry at the moment is with all these games coming up and seemingly nothing happening to identify major problems we have. There's a shift in managers everywhere and a lot of teams have the propensity for improvement. Fulham looked a different side yesterday to Jol's. The new guy had them well drilled and not overrun with lazy, mercurial players (he just played the one in Berba and it worked).
Palace look better under Pulis.
Stoke are getting better now under Hughes. They're looking more and more solid.
Swansea will probably improve.
Norwich have improved a little of late, some of their signings are starting to bed in.
West Ham look shite at the moment but a decent front man could change that, or perhaps a new manager effect if Fat Sam gets booted.
If Lambert rests on his laurels and just continues blindly "going again" without sorting out our passing and movement and our tactics, then we will slip into trouble.
Jan is coming up too. What the teams do in every section in the league will largely define what happens in the tail end of the season. For us we're in that large group who are all fighting to get to 40 points asap. We might seem comfortable in 10th but we're on thin ice.
The fact is if we carry on like we are we're more likely to go and lose 6 on the spin, rather than win 6 in a row. We're asking for defeats playing like we are. As seen, lose a key player like Vlaar and we're a mess all over the pitch. Our defence had ground out some valuable points.
Lambert needs to seriously react to problems far quicker. It only takes 2-3 games to switch from being comfortable, to needing incontinence trousers. Whilst teams below us are gradually improving we can't afford to implode. Lambo is asking for trouble.
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For ages I have thought we have needed someone in our team with a bit of guile, someone who can influence a game and make things happen.
Now, I'm not so sure that is our biggest problem.
I am now more concerned with our total lack of 'presence' in the middle of the pitch.
We have quite tidy, functional midfielders, who 'generally' can receive the ball, pass it (often sideways) and run around a lot.
But, not one of them can tackle, win a header and get stuck in, everyone one of our current midfield options is a lightweight.
Delph is by far the best of a bad bunch, but a whole lot of that is down to his incredible energy.
I think this is the main reason we sit back, sit off and allow teams to come onto us....because we don't have the players to play in any other way.
Scott Parker absolutely owned the midfield yesterday, thats the type of player we need.
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For ages I have thought we have needed someone in our team with a bit of guile, someone who can influence a game and make things happen.
Now, I'm not so sure that is our biggest problem.
I am now more concerned with our total lack of 'presence' in the middle of the pitch.
We have quite tidy, functional midfielders, who 'generally' can receive the ball, pass it (often sideways) and run around a lot.
But, not one of them can tackle, win a header and get stuck in, everyone one of our current midfield options is a lightweight.
Delph is by far the best of a bad bunch, but a whole lot of that is down to his incredible energy.
I think this is the main reason we sit back, sit off and allow teams to come onto us....because we don't have the players to play in any other way.
Scott Parker absolutely owned the midfield yesterday, thats the type of player we need.
I tend to agree. While I like our midfield players individually, the blend between them doesn't seem to quite work. And that fact they are a bit 'samey' gives the manager a lack of tactical options. If we had one that was a cut the rest, either defensively or attacking wise, then that would immediately change the shape of the midfield as the other would slot around the more dominant player.
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For ages I have thought we have needed someone in our team with a bit of guile, someone who can influence a game and make things happen.
Now, I'm not so sure that is our biggest problem.
I am now more concerned with our total lack of 'presence' in the middle of the pitch.
We have quite tidy, functional midfielders, who 'generally' can receive the ball, pass it (often sideways) and run around a lot.
But, not one of them can tackle, win a header and get stuck in, everyone one of our current midfield options is a lightweight.
Delph is by far the best of a bad bunch, but a whole lot of that is down to his incredible energy.
I think this is the main reason we sit back, sit off and allow teams to come onto us....because we don't have the players to play in any other way.
Scott Parker absolutely owned the midfield yesterday, thats the type of player we need.
I tend to agree. While I like our midfield players individually, the blend between them doesn't seem to quite work. And that fact they are a bit 'samey' gives the manager a lack of tactical options. If we had one that was a cut the rest, either defensively or attacking wise, then that would immediately change the shape of the midfield as the other would slot around the more dominant player.
I'd like to see Herd in midfield, he's all action and commited. He'll do the dirty work and allow others a bit more freedom. Then allow Delph a bit further forward. It's also perhaps time for Sylla to come back in. I'm just running out of patience with Westwood and KEA entirely.
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Last season's good run came with Sylla and Delph playing slightly ahead of Westwood, left and right respectively, and that gave us more forward passing options. With KEA in there he plays in the same areas of the pitch and Westwood, thereby turning a forward pass into a sideways or backwards one. Also, Delph pulled left and Sylla right, which facilitated getting the ball out to Gabby and Westood.
It was an inverted triangle shape that worked well for us, so why haven't we seen it again this season? You stick Bacuna in Sylla's place and you also add an extra bit of quality on the ball to it.
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Agree with that Concrete. KEA and Westwood both like to play with the game in front of them (i.e. deep) whereas we're crying out for a player who wants and is comfortable the ball in advanced positions between the line of the midfield and forwards.
Delph can do it but KEA hasn't got the speed of thought or legs to operate in these areas resulting in him dropping deep and a lack of short forward pass options.
I'd also echo the comments that we need an upgrade for Weimann. The guy has battled valiantly in an un-natural position but the club now, should have the funds to make a significant upgrade in this area.
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Watching the Hull Swansea score with interest. That is transition.
Dreaming of a side with Ugo and Southgate (or Olof, or Laursen, or...)in the back four. That is transition.
Fondly remembering the success we had under a manager now at Crawley, that is transition.
Thinking Doug was a bit fast and loose with the finances... Ok, I've gone too far.
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Who was the last villa manager we had who produced a technically decent team. IMO you have to go back to Brian Little.
O'dreary started off o.k but the football soon declined, MON had famously a direct set piece plan A which wasn't too bad when it worked but no idea when it didn't, Houllier may have produced one long term but the side was in transition and I don't need to waste any time on McLeish's football philosophy.
So we've had on the face of it in the last 15 years some capable big name managers but the technical sides they've produced have been for clubs they've previously manage, not us.
At Norwich Lambert produced a high tempo, attacking team. Not amazing on the ball but good to watch. He reached that with us for the final three months of last season.
I'm happy to watch that tbh, it produces goals and good games even if it's not the sort to ever really crack the top 4, not that those days will be with us anytime soon. That's why I'm finding it really difficult to understand why things football worse have declined so much this season.
Another reason I think is we rarely signed any latin style players. We've never ever signed a Brazilian player have we nor do we ever look really into signing Argies, Spanish (o.k Luna but I mean further up the pitch) or French players. Even if we do sign one, he's usually the lone one in amongst a squad of british players so the football intelligence gets lost. I can't help looking enviously at the Spainish colony Swansea have and the French legion at Newcastle, these nations produce the most technically gifted players after all.
Just have to think back to the time we had Solano and JPA, there was some decent football played then. Looking at the Bundesliga, two South Americans, Diego from Wolfsburg who once cost Juventus 20m and Tomas Rincon from Hamburg who's been linked to prem clubs, are both on free transfers in 6 months.
These are the types of midfielders I want to see us signing to make the next step up the league but I'd imagine they'd want more than a fiver a week.
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The sad thing is we've got one Spanish player, and three Dutch players (inc KEA, who's Dutch born). You'd think all of them would be able to open a tin of beans with their foot of choice, but (Vlaar excused as he's a center back) none of them have a decent touch and none seem to be able to pass the ball.
I'd worry about us signing South Americans. We'd be expecting the next Ronaldinho and end up with the Brazilian Robbie Savage.
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Are we getting Juninho yet?
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The sad thing is we've got one Spanish player, and three Dutch players (inc KEA, who's Dutch born). You'd think all of them would be able to open a tin of beans with their foot of choice, but (Vlaar excused as he's a center back) none of them have a decent touch and none seem to be able to pass the ball.
Don't forget Cuellar, we'd already had what I think was, at the time, the only Spanish male on the planet with no ball skills.
it was like watching a puppy trying to pick up a balloon.
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Also the only player to run like a girl.
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The sad thing is we've got one Spanish player, and three Dutch players (inc KEA, who's Dutch born). You'd think all of them would be able to open a tin of beans with their foot of choice, but (Vlaar excused as he's a center back) none of them have a decent touch and none seem to be able to pass the ball.
Don't forget Cuellar, we'd already had what I think was, at the time, the only Spanish male on the planet with no ball skills.
it was like watching a puppy trying to pick up a balloon.
One day we'll have square balls in Football and Carlos will be happy.
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The sad thing is we've got one Spanish player, and three Dutch players (inc KEA, who's Dutch born). You'd think all of them would be able to open a tin of beans with their foot of choice, but (Vlaar excused as he's a center back) none of them have a decent touch and none seem to be able to pass the ball.
Don't forget Cuellar, we'd already had what I think was, at the time, the only Spanish male on the planet with no ball skills.
it was like watching a puppy trying to pick up a balloon.
how is we have been blessed to have had two Spaniards with shins like 50 pence pieces? The entire nation can control the ball on their chins yet we somehow find the two that can't control it for living.
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For ages I have thought we have needed someone in our team with a bit of guile, someone who can influence a game and make things happen.
Now, I'm not so sure that is our biggest problem.
I am now more concerned with our total lack of 'presence' in the middle of the pitch.
We have quite tidy, functional midfielders, who 'generally' can receive the ball, pass it (often sideways) and run around a lot.
But, not one of them can tackle, win a header and get stuck in, everyone one of our current midfield options is a lightweight.
Delph is by far the best of a bad bunch, but a whole lot of that is down to his incredible energy.
I think this is the main reason we sit back, sit off and allow teams to come onto us....because we don't have the players to play in any other way.
Scott Parker absolutely owned the midfield yesterday, thats the type of player we need.
I have been saying this a while. I don't see us ever winning the ball until the opposition are close to our or even in our penalty area, our possession is from a clearance or the goalkeeper.
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I do think a Steven n'zonzi type player would be a good shout. I like Westwood more than many do, but he needs physicality around him. And he seems to need to play in a three man midfield a lot of the time. That's the difference with carrick, who's over 6 foot
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Every time I read the thread title, I always think yes.
While walking back to my car on Sunday, after I had expended all my energy ranting about deep midfields, inept attacking, lack of full backs and so on I came stumbled upon the conclusion that "... mid-table teams will play badly like that though and get beat, its why they're mid-table".
Which is a transition most people plumped for at the start of the season and I struggle to understand the lack of patience, even if I do share the exasperations of the way we’re playing at the moment.
Lets wait and see how we play come February/March when 40 points are in the bag.
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Watching the Hull Swansea score with interest. That is transition.
Dreaming of a side with Ugo and Southgate (or Olof, or Laursen, or...)in the back four. That is transition.
Fondly remembering the success we had under a manager now at Crawley, that is transition.
Thinking Doug was a bit fast and loose with the finances... Ok, I've gone too far.
The manager who is now at Crawley spent enough money for us to do far better than transition. The FA Cup final he got us to was not transition, it was a tragedy.
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The FA Cup final defeat of 2000 and the manner of the performance must rank as one of the most disappointing moments in the entire history of the club.
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The FA Cup final defeat of 2000 and the manner of the performance must rank as one of the most disappointing moments in the entire history of the club.
If someone asks you "decribe what is feels like when someone pisses on your bonfire", tell them about the lead up to that day, the day itself and how it all ended up.
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The FA Cup final defeat of 2000 and the manner of the performance must rank as one of the most disappointing moments in the entire history of the club.
The mention of it even now stills sends a cold shudder through me - an awful experience which will haunt me till my dying day :(
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I had a great day out. The 90 minutes in between it was forgettable but i'm glad we got there.
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I had a great day out. The 90 minutes in between it was forgettable but i'm glad we got there.
The 9 hours from 3pm were harrowing :(
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The FA Cup final defeat of 2000 and the manner of the performance must rank as one of the most disappointing moments in the entire history of the club.
The mention of it even now stills sends a cold shudder through me - an awful experience which will haunt me till my dying day :(
A touch melodramatic there - it was a shit football match - you must have had a charmed existence if that's the thing that will haunt you to the grave.
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The FA Cup final defeat of 2000 and the manner of the performance must rank as one of the most disappointing moments in the entire history of the club.
It does, but looking back that performance was better than 70% of the ones we've sat through cringing this season
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The FA Cup final defeat of 2000 and the manner of the performance must rank as one of the most disappointing moments in the entire history of the club.
It does, but looking back that performance was better than 70% of the ones we've sat through cringing this season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomania
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Ha. I challenge anyone brave enough to sit through either that cup final or Sunday's game again and tell me the former wasn't a better performance
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Ha. I challenge anyone brave enough to sit through either that cup final or Sunday's game again and tell me the former wasn't a better performance
You're right, Sunday's defeat was the only game of the season so far.
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Eh?
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Also the only player to run like a girl.
JPA was known for that as well...
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Eh?
Your contention was that the Cup final was better than watching the games of this season, and then said that it was specifically better than Sunday's performance, an atypical match to choose as it was clearly our worst of the season so far. If you feel the performance at Fulham was representative of this season, I can only conclude that you have forgotten that other matches this season have taken place.
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Ha. I challenge anyone brave enough to sit through either that cup final or Sunday's game again and tell me the former wasn't a better performance
Award for the most pointless argument of the year goes to...
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Ha. I challenge anyone brave enough to sit through either that cup final or Sunday's game again and tell me the former wasn't a better performance
why would anyone want to do that and why the hell does anyone really care? Not even sure what you would be able to prove by doing that other than they were both disappointing games. If you trying to make out that Sunday is the standard of our football under Lambert then you're completely wrong. If you are to suggest it was a bad day and we need to fix a number of things that have crept into our general play in recent weeks then you probably are a lot closer to the truth.
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Ha. I challenge anyone brave enough to sit through either that cup final or Sunday's game again and tell me the former wasn't a better performance
why would anyone want to do that and why the hell does anyone really care? Not even sure what you would be able to prove by doing that other than they were both disappointing games. If you trying to make out that Sunday is the standard of our football under Lambert then you're completely wrong. If you are to suggest it was a bad day and we need to fix a number of things that have crept into our general play in recent weeks then you probably are a lot closer to the truth.
I'm largely with you in general terms re the transition, but let's be honest, so far this season, more often than not, last Sunday has been a pretty good indicator of the standard of our football.
The results haven't been too bad thus far, but, whilst I understand that "Rome didn't get built in a day" thing, and that whole "we're a mid table club, that's what mid table clubs do" argument, and sympathise with them, it strikes me that Sunday was a pretty decent reflection of the way we've played.
Look at recent games.
fulham - shit performance, shit result
southampton - unconvincing performance enlivened by scoring some good goals, good result
sunderland - shit performance, ok result
albion - half a terrible performance, half a good performance, ok result
cardiff - ok performance, good result
west ham - shit performance, ok result
everton - mediocre performance, poor result
spurs - shit performance, poor result
hull - shit performance, ok result.
There are definite positives - I'd much rather play badly yet get the result, that is one of the obvious ones. However, to counter that, I am not sure what kind of results we'll find ourselves with if we play the rest of the season out in that style. Teams that don't keep the ball, and surrender possession as easy as we do generally find themselves struggling.
We are also defensively way more resilient than last season. That new defence coach has made a difference. That's another positive.
So while I get, and agree with most of, the arguments about why we're playing the way we are, I find it really hard to argue that - first two games of the season apart - Sunday isn't a pretty good reflection of the way we've played this season - by which I mean, a tendency to sit back and hope to counter attack, a failure to keep the ball, an inability to pass very well, an almost total lack of creativity from midfield, deeply unconvincing full backs, that sort of thing.
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While this is the case, Paulie, I do think it's unfair to only include what is essentially an odd run of form. We've had plenty of types of form under Lambert, and if this is the equivalent of our drop-off this time last year (perhaps the gashest run of form in the history of professional sport) then that is undeniable progress.
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While this is the case, Paulie, I do think it's unfair to only include what is essentially an odd run of form. We've had plenty of types of form under Lambert, and if this is the equivalent of our drop-off this time last year (perhaps the gashest run of form in the history of professional sport) then that is undeniable progress.
That's a pretty long spell of time to include for a run of form, though, that's what, nine or ten games listed there?
We've failed to score in 8 of our 15 games. Our home record is still terrible.
I'll carry on supporting Lambert, but when the iffy period (in terms of performances, but not points, before anyone jumps on that) stretches almost the entire length of the season so far, it's not surprising when people raise their eyebrows.
Last season, we had people crucifying Lambert, wanting him sacked etc etc.
Those of us who stood by him, a lot of us did so on the basis that "the results are poor, but you can't just look at it that way, the performances hint at progress being made".
This season it is almost the opposite, the results suggest improvement is being made, but the wider picture, in terms of performances, is far less convincing.
I defended him on the basis of the first scenario last year, I don't think there's any reason to not feel a bit disappointed with him on the basis of the second. It's at least consistent (ie looking beyond just results).
Like I said, though, I do think that Sunday's performance (which wasn't our worst, BTW) has a fair amount in common with quite a few of our matches this season, and wasn't just a particularly bad day at the office.
I totally agree re if this is the equivalent of, say, our post xmas period last season, then it's improvement, and will see if it turns out that way, but the argument above seemed to me to be that we haven't actually had much of a spell of poor performances, which doesn't really tally with what I've seen, and I consider myself very much pro-Lambert.
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Paulie has stated my thoughts perfectly and better than I ever could. I am fairly concerned about our current style of play and think it is not unreasonable to think that if we continue to play this way, we may find that the results begin to go against us and that we will be flirting with danger once more. I am not anti-Lambert, but I am not particularly pro-Lambert, either. The gaping hole that is our midfield has needed addressing for at least two windows thus far and little has been done to solidify it. We can point to the various additions from Westwood to Sylla and so forth, but for whatever reason (about which we could argue), they have not brought the sort of heft necessary to thrive, rather than merely survive, in the league.
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I'm of the position that the current run of form is just temporary as we transition from a team that is a disaster at the back to one that is more responsible. I just don't think Lambert expected it go so horribly wrong with our strikers and I don't think he saw our ability to string passes together diminish to what has become. There's no excuse for that. However picking two games that were shit in our history doesn't make that the norm. It's just how it is right now and I have no reason to believe it will last forever. Also as an exercise it would be meaningless and drive anyone to reach for a rusty blade.
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I'm not saying that Lambert's necessarily my favourite manager in the world, certainly in terms of style, but I feel he's a serious manager who thinks carefully about his decisions, rather than the McLeish/Pulis/MON old school which relied largely on old cliches and unconsidered (and often plain wrong) gut instinct. Our defense has improved markedly, not a mean achievement when you consider that two of our defensive signings are injured (the best one out for a very long time) and our first choice right back is going through a quite amazingly bad run of form. Our attacking has suffered thanks to this refocus, but Lambert's certainly earned the right to a little patience, especially considering the turnaround he managed at the end of last season.
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I'm of the position that the current run of form is just temporary as we transition from a team that is a disaster at the back to one that is more responsible. I just don't think Lambert expected it go so horribly wrong with our strikers and I don't think he saw our ability to string passes together diminish to what has become. There's no excuse for that.
You're right, there's no excuse for it, and I don't think for a second that this is the way Lambert wants us to play, but ultimately, this is how we are playing.
Weimann, Westwood (lesser extent), Benteke for me have been awfully off form, but isn't it Lambert's job to fix that? Players being off form is something that seem to get use to explain or justify the team's struggles, but this isn't something nobody can do anything about. He is the manager, he is meant to get them on form. He's also meant to get us passing the ball, too.
I think we probably - as a natural feature of the well of support he still has - start talking about these as if they're things that can't be helped, like bad winters for farmers, for example, but they're not.
Lambert is meant to sort these things out. I hope he does, and am glad that he'll be able to do so from 11th after almost a half of the season rather than 17th, because it's much easier this way, but he has absolutely got to sort it out, because when more and more people start looking at how we are playing and thinking it's not much better than the previous three years, I think he is going to find out that that support is not without limits.
but Lambert's certainly earned the right to a little patience, especially considering the turnaround he managed at the end of last season.
Of course he has. I wouldn't even consider sacking him, not for a second, but he needs to deliver, because it's obvious that the quality this season has not really been there.
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It certainly hasn't, and we're too reliant on not having the ball. We seem to be playing as a cliche of ourselves at the minute, too wild and too reckless, and the funny thing about being too wild and too reckless is that you give the ball away a lot and end up being exceptionally boring. In particular, Westwood seems to have bought into that and is no longer playing his patient game of last season. A bit of sense from him would go a long way towards helping the side, but one problem is that we don't really have anyone to bring in to replace him when he's out of form. That is Lambert's fault to some degree (though the arguments about Kozak vs. Hypothetical Playmaker X have been well rehearsed).
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Maybe we'll bring in that playmaker in January?
I hope we're working on something in that department, because I honestly think it is going to be an absolutely crucial factor in the way things go for Lambert. That's not to say we're going to get relegated if we don't buy one, but that it's a position that, if we fill it well - and soon - will have a massive influence.
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It's the single thing which would improve us the most. I've been a little disappointed in the rumours (such as there have been rumours) because of this, because they've all been dribbly wing-forward types. We need a real midfield creator, not another Tonev.
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Not only the creative midfielder, but fucking hell, how much do I wish we had Petrov in there, with his experience and wise head these days.
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Or indeed a certain loanable midfielder from Manchester City. I was against it at the time as he looked completely past it, but he's having something of a rebirth at Everton.
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Our good form last season coincided in us being able to play a fairly settled side, something which, due to injuries, we have been unable to do this time. How many of the back 4 on Sunday, for example, would be first choice under normal circumstances?
People will argue that it's a squad game now, which is true, but when your changes are forced rather than through choice, any planning goes out of the window and you are constantly working on a 'make do and mend' basis. Under those circumstances it becomes all about grinding out the results until the situation improves.
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Maybe we'll bring in that playmaker in January?
I hope we're working on something in that department, because I honestly think it is going to be an absolutely crucial factor in the way things go for Lambert. That's not to say we're going to get relegated if we don't buy one, but that it's a position that, if we fill it well - and soon - will have a massive influence.
Yep a playmaker is vital and has been for some time and ideally someone with a bit of experience and ready made quality.
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Disagree, its not a playmaker we need, it is someone who can stop the opposition from walking through our midfield.
Someone has to get the ball for a playmaker or at least help us get possession of it.
Our midfield problems are because they are very very lightweight
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Our good form last season coincided in us being able to play a fairly settled side, something which, due to injuries, we have been unable to do this time. How many of the back 4 on Sunday, for example, would be first choice under normal circumstances?
Hmm, true, but then again, Lowton on the bench, and a midfielder at RB doesn't help. I think Clark is also not far off a first choice, unless we're assuming Okore is the natural starter in that position.
The defence has actually been OK - I thought it was on Sunday - the problems have been elsewhere, where we've not really had significant injury problems.
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I have no doubt that if he was fit Okore would currently be first choice.
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I have no doubt that if he was fit Okore would currently be first choice.
But in his place, Clark has actually done very well this season.
We've actually improved on last year in defence, so I'm not really sure that that (well, injuries there) is a valid reason for our poor form. It seems to be mostly in the middle and up-front that we have had problems. Certainly, in the middle, we've not really had enormous injury problems.
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Disagree, its not a playmaker we need, it is someone who can stop the opposition from walking through our midfield.
Someone has to get the ball for a playmaker or at least help us get possession of it.
Our midfield problems are because they are very very lightweight
I would say it's both that we need sir. Because lets be honest, Delph is our only decent midfielder at the moment. KEA won't get any better. Westy and Sylla might, but aren't close to it yet. We need two new players in the middle. I think we've got one of the poorest midfields in this division. Two new faces would improve us no end.
We'll be fortunate see one in during the upcoming window though.
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Disagree, its not a playmaker we need, it is someone who can stop the opposition from walking through our midfield.
Someone has to get the ball for a playmaker or at least help us get possession of it.
Our midfield problems are because they are very very lightweight
I would say it's both that we need sir. Because lets be honest, Delph is our only decent midfielder at the moment. KEA won't get any better. Westy and Sylla might, but aren't close to it yet. We need two new players in the middle. I think we've got one of the poorest midfields in this division. Two new faces would improve us no end.
We'll be fortunate see one in during the upcoming window though.
I cant disagree with that, I thought Syllas end of season performances looked like we might have solved part of the problem. Delph is the only one that looks good enough at the moment in the rihgt system I think Westy could do a job.
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Disagree, its not a playmaker we need, it is someone who can stop the opposition from walking through our midfield.
Someone has to get the ball for a playmaker or at least help us get possession of it.
Our midfield problems are because they are very very lightweight
I would say it's both that we need sir. Because lets be honest, Delph is our only decent midfielder at the moment. KEA won't get any better. Westy and Sylla might, but aren't close to it yet. We need two new players in the middle. I think we've got one of the poorest midfields in this division. Two new faces would improve us no end.
We'll be fortunate see one in during the upcoming window though.
I cant disagree with that, I thought Syllas end of season performances looked like we might have solved part of the problem. Delph is the only one that looks good enough at the moment in the rihgt system I think Westy could do a job.
I agree, I think the third man in midfield has been our achiles heel since Lambert arrived.
I'd be happy enough with Westwood and Delph plus A.N. Other. When we stem the flow through midfield, we keep the ball better and look far more dangerous.
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Or indeed a certain loanable midfielder from Manchester City. I was against it at the time as he looked completely past it, but he's having something of a rebirth at Everton.
Aye, Barry would be perfect for us, I have to say.
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The original post question asked if this is what transition looks like, and in a way I would say no, one of my biggest gripes against Paul Lambert is that he didn't really attempt a transition as such from where we were when he arrived, to a new model of football. What he's attempted is more a massive upheaval and drastic policy change of the likes that has probably never been attempted in the Premiership before, certainly not successfully.
Yes we all know where we were when he arrived, with a fairly dysfunctional squad that was costing the club far too much money in wages compared to turnover. But we did have some good quality experienced players here and in my opinion he was too quick to just alienate them and throw the baby out with the bathwater. I know there may be a lot of good reasons why he might want to do that, from stamping his authority and mark on the side, to getting rid of disruptive elements, changing our style of play and ethos, and lowering the wage etc., but a good manager should be able to undertake a good gap analysis, and take where he is and what he has and transition to where he wants to be in a sustainable way. That will usually involve working with elements you don't want in the short term to maximise the stability and effectiveness of the longer term transition and goal.
Paul Lambert took a massive gamble by alienating and striping the club of some of it's more experienced players and relying pretty much on inexperienced youth of untested and questionable premiership quality. Even then, given the arguments about whether those experienced players would have done (or were doing) more harm than good, he still had the option of getting in a few new experienced players, but we had all the quotes from him that experience doesn't necessarily bring anything youth couldn't. For one thing though, experience brings experience which is a value in itself, and of course whilst experience doesn't make a player a good player or the right player, a good player with the right attitude and experience can be invaluable, and I'm surprised Lambert couldn't have found even a couple of those with the right fit to improve us and provide more stability in the transition.
At the moment we are transitioning from a young, inexperienced side of questionable quality to a young inexperienced side of questionable quality! Paul Lambert's premise for improvement seems to be that those players blooded last year, would get better this year, and at the same time carry all the new inexperienced players of questionable quality he brought in the summer until they could adapt.
That premise has shown to be false so far, we scrapped through by the skin of our teeth last year, even with our great run at the end of the season. But the players that in general performed well last season haven't hit those standards, others don't seem to have progressed at all and most of the new players have yet to adapt and bed in well, if they will at all.
As a team we undoubtedly seem to have a good ethos and ethic and so have progressed in that sense, and our results despite our often poor performances I think give testament to that. But i'm really not sure that will be enough in the long run to progress us in any real sense. Yes good football teams are good 'teams',but they also have good players in them.
I love the policy and overall ethos of investing in young inexperienced players and developing them, but trying to build a (successful) team on nothing but this is risky at best and impossible at worst. Especially in the Premier league. For every success story that develops there will probably be another couple of relative failures, so if you buy say 6 or 7 players a summer, maybe only 2-3 at best will make the eventual grade. I say eventual as most of them will take time to get to that level too. So you can see that if that is the case, it really is going to take a long time to build and develop a good side, if that model works at all and it doesn't seriously break somewhere along the line.
So Lambert's gamble worked last season, and we stayed up just, but i'm not so sure it will continue to pay off. I'm not sure what the criterion is for success this season, staying up? Mid table security? Not that I think mid table will feel a secure position during the season, as I expect the gap between midtable and relegation to be relatively small and therefore keep everyone up to 10th probably on their toes until the end.
We need a few experienced heads to come in a bring just a little bit of nous and composure to the team, and to act as role models for the 'youngsters' to learn from. One of the best ways to learn is to be able to play next to and with an experienced quality player on the pitch, and we don't seem to have that enough. Though Vlar seems to be stepping up to the plate this season and doing just this for our defence. We could do with the same in midfield for sure, and possibly even in attack.
I've not even mentioned Lambert's tactics yet, which I hope will transition and develop too. I've also not mentioned possibly the biggest factor underlying all of this, Randy Lerner's financial transition, from a relatively free spending owner seeking a top four spot and the rewards of European Champions League football, to a seemingly penny pinching miserly owner. We all know that a financial transition had to be made and we were operating a financially unsustainable model, but did it have to be made so sharply and now that it would seem we are getting to a good place financially, especially once we shed the last of the more costly players at the end of the season, will we begin to see a little more (financially sound) investment in quality again, or are we going to maintain our more cheapskate approach in developing players?
Anyway, in answer to the question, is this what transition looks like, well in my opinion it's what transition looks like when transition is undertaken in a non organic manner and too abruptly. No doubt there are good arguments to say that this is what we needed and we had no choice, but I think there are good arguments to say we could have undertaken this whole transitioning business in a smoother manner too. I'm still not sure what we are transitioning too, and whether we will be successful with it, I fear only if both Lerner and Lambert start to transition a little in regards to their attitudes on finances and experience respectively, will we start to be successful.
My last thought is, if only this model had been undertaken at the start of our '5 year plan', where could we be now!
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Very well put Dribbler.
Just going quickly back to the Houllier thing discussed on another thread. What he was putting into place could have had us looking very good at this point. Now obviously the health matters couldn't be helped, but the appointment of Alex McLeish was a monumental leap back. So whilst I'm kind of someone in a middle ground regarding Lambert, he was given a hell of a task and a lot of mess to clean up. Had Houllier stayed two seasons and then passed the reigns over to a boss like Martinez (we did approach Roberto before McLeish, but I do think it was a year too early for him anyway) I think we'd be seeing a far better example of transition.
Again the polar shift with Randy from free spending to scraping the pennies at the bottom of the jar are an indication of his lack of footballing nous. He bought into the O Neill aura I think. Martin had seemingly top to bottom control. That did get us top 6 and a cup final granted but it also made us financially unsound (to put it mildly). Had Randy had a decent football man at the club to advise him, we might have spread those finances better, so that we'd at least still be competing in the markets that say Southampton are buying from (as an example). But essentially any money we've spent since O Neill left has largely come from selling O Neill's better assets. When they were all gone we were left with his turkeys which had no sell on value and crippling wages.
I appreciate the ethos Lambert is undertaking but I think we've gone too far to the other side. You can sometimes get a gut feeling about a player, or a decent idea from half a dozen games, that they're not quite up to it at this level. We've all seen it before. For me, I'm sorry to say, but Bennett, KEA, Bowery, Helenius and Tonev all look like the sort of players we'll struggle to remember played for us in 10 years time. They'll be part of the time wasters forum, in the remember him thread. Luna, Lowton, Sylla, Westwood, Steer and Kozak have potential but I wouldn't put money on any of them making it long term. Okore I would, he looks better. Benteke has been the stroke of genius, but unless he regains his form (he will I'm sure) then it won't be quite the master stroke we thought it was in May.
We didn't need to sign 7-8 players in the summer who may or may not be Premier League quality. We could have bought in 2-3 more established players (not necessarily from this league but from at least near equivalent standard). Then maybe 2-3 more young prospects in addition. We spent what 20 mill over the summer? Had we spent 20 mill on 4 players as opposed to spreading it on 7 (most of whom are long shot punts) chances are we'd have better players. Quality doesn't always correlate to price but you've more chance of getting a good player for 5 million than you do for under a million.
January is key. We are mid-table but this league can change in a matter of weeks and the way we're playing currently is asking for trouble.
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Not wanting to open up a wish list type debate but I think that mixing what he bought in with a couple of decent older pros would have done us wonders this year. Gareth Barry was a missed opportunity. There is other value out there as well - Lescott, Essien, Parker, Berbatov or Benayoun could have all done a job for us. And before people get on saying these players are not good enough, any of them could have played a bit part role in the first team but all would offer experience to a young squad/team. There is a reason no other team has tried to do this with purely young and inexperienced players - it doesnt work....A mix of youth and experience is vital and players of this ilk would have given some of our new lads a bit more time to get up to speed and ease the transition
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Good posts lads. This season reminds me too much of the McLeish where we were 8th around this stage of the season. However I think everyone knew that was a false position. A few injuries and we fell apart at the seams.
Worried with Vlaar having calf problems again, Benteke just doesn't look right physically or mentally. With the exception of Delph I don't think a single player is playing well at the moment.
Think when Lambert came in he badly underestimated the scale of the task ahead of him. Dunne's injury left him short at the back but was it really necessary to let James Collins go to West Ham at the time? Guess he thought he would get the likes of Ireland, Nzogbia, Bent back into form and bring some younger players in to supplement them. Like any manager some of his signings have been utter gash but I've no idea why he thought Bennett and Kea would make it at this level.
He made bad decisions in the summer really. Signing Kozak and Helenius when midfield needed to be strengthened. Unlucky with Okore who looked a player and his bomb squad antics were unnecessary.
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I cannot agree with the exprienced players line. These were the same players who had let us down, badly, over two seasons previously. When you add in the attitude to alcohol and attitudes towards coaching staff who happen to be legends, then good fucking rid to the lot.
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I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly. Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.
Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?
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I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly. Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.
Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?
It's not so much the players we had. But it shouldn't mean we don't go back to experienced players. Vlaar without his injury last season would probably have settled quicker, so a signing or two more of his ilk could be good. The only player from O Neill's old guard who might have proved vaguely useful was Dunney. As much as his attitude wasn't always fantastic (and he was one of the main troublemakers for Houllier), he's actually a decent player. Obviously fitness was the issue in that regard. Though frustratingly he's barely missed a game for Rangers and by most accounts from R's fans he's been a cut above.
Benty indeed might have helped.
Barry or Parker would have been very good for us. Lescott too. I think we could perhaps have taken Barry or Lescott on loan from City without having to take on their whole wage bill. There's probably good players in the other top leagues who could be bought in for a reasonable fee. There's a lot of clubs in Europes top leagues having to sell players to help their finances. Again that goes back to the fact that Newcastle could get a bargain like Cabaye. The rest of their cheap French contingent are also now settling in nicely and delivering the goods.
One thing we're really missing in midfield is a bit of nous and experience and a cool head. We haven't replaced Stan and that's something that needs addressing.
We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
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The other thing about having older, experienced players is not necessarily what they bring to the team in matches but what they bring to the squad on the training ground. Would Westwood (for example) gain more from opposing/working with Scott Parker than KEA? Would the defenders gain more from having a Gareth Barry sliding passes between them? Would the older/experienced player be able to tell them what they should be doing to correct their faults?
That is one advantage the tops clubs have. Imagine Jones/Smalling up against Rooney/RVP in training I think they will learn quicker than if they were up against Gabby and Andi.
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I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly. Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.
Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?
It's not so much the players we had. But it shouldn't mean we don't go back to experienced players. Vlaar without his injury last season would probably have settled quicker, so a signing or two more of his ilk could be good. The only player from O Neill's old guard who might have proved vaguely useful was Dunney. As much as his attitude wasn't always fantastic (and he was one of the main troublemakers for Houllier), he's actually a decent player. Obviously fitness was the issue in that regard. Though frustratingly he's barely missed a game for Rangers and by most accounts from R's fans he's been a cut above.
Benty indeed might have helped.
Barry or Parker would have been very good for us. Lescott too. I think we could perhaps have taken Barry or Lescott on loan from City without having to take on their whole wage bill. There's probably good players in the other top leagues who could be bought in for a reasonable fee. There's a lot of clubs in Europes top leagues having to sell players to help their finances. Again that goes back to the fact that Newcastle could get a bargain like Cabaye. The rest of their cheap French contingent are also now settling in nicely and delivering the goods.
One thing we're really missing in midfield is a bit of nous and experience and a cool head. We haven't replaced Stan and that's something that needs addressing.
We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
I would not criticise Lambert for not using the most of the so called experienced players from the past 3-5 years. For one reason or another they had to go. However I do completely agree we do need some quality experience in the team, especially someone with a bit of leadership and quality about them. You can pick players up on loan or even on a free but this wage cap is our problem though isn't it? This really needs to be addressed in the summer for us to have further progress.
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I have no doubt that if he was fit Okore would currently be first choice.
Definitely would, he is class and is going to become the best centre back in the league.
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Not wanting to open up a wish list type debate but I think that mixing what he bought in with a couple of decent older pros would have done us wonders this year. Gareth Barry was a missed opportunity. There is other value out there as well - Lescott, Essien, Parker, Berbatov or Benayoun could have all done a job for us. And before people get on saying these players are not good enough, any of them could have played a bit part role in the first team but all would offer experience to a young squad/team. There is a reason no other team has tried to do this with purely young and inexperienced players - it doesnt work....A mix of youth and experience is vital and players of this ilk would have given some of our new lads a bit more time to get up to speed and ease the transition
Think through the logic of the bold bit, no one has tried it but it doesn't work, that's a pretty big leap you're making there. No one has tried it because it's a high risk strategy and most managers are too concerned with the short-term to try it. Now to counter myself there does need to be a degree of short-term thinking to the strategy and it's fair to argue that Lambert has been lax in that regard. However, as I said last season, I think he wanted Ireland, Nzog, Bent, Given, Gabby and Dunne to provide that experienced core and, Gabby aside, They let him down. This season he decided that the experience of last year was enough and I think he'd have been correct if we hadn't had such a mess of injuries at times.
How many times, for example, has the same 11 started back to back? I think cardiff and west brom is the only time, that can't help, particularly with 7 new players coming in over the summer.
Lambert does need to do some short-term work on fixing our ball retention but I don't think, it's as simple as, there are too many kids, or the players aren't good enough, I think our squad has enough quality to be a top half team but we need to find a catalyst to build our attacking play around, that might be a new signing or someone rediscovering their best form or a tactical shift but the key blocks to being a good side are all there for me.
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I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly. Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.
Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?
We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
Think about how much each costs per week then you will have answered your own question.
Having spent three years trying to clear the decks of players we struggle to shift it would be absolute madness to do the same thing all over again.
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We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
Can I have a limb amputated instead?
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We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.
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We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.
I'd rather have Emile from Robocop, after he's fell into the acid vat.
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We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.
I'd rather have Emile from Robocop, after he's fell into the acid vat.
But still...Heskey over Bowery though. Lol.
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We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?
I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.
She'd come on, flit around inconsequentially for three or four minutes, and get Man of the Match.
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So just past the half way point of the season, and ignoring for a moment the specifics of how we got here, is sitting 10th on 24pts something that we would all have accepted at the start of the campaign? In terms of transition it is a significant step forward on a number of fronts, and we have taken a step back in some other areas. But where do we stand and what would now represent a satisfactory second half to the season?
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A vast improvement in home form.
Not just results, but attacking intent. Take the game to the opposition, win a few, lose a few. But have a go.
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So just past the half way point of the season, and ignoring for a moment the specifics of how we got here, is sitting 10th on 24pts something that we would all have accepted at the start of the campaign? In terms of transition it is a significant step forward on a number of fronts, and we have taken a step back in some other areas. But where do we stand and what would now represent a satisfactory second half to the season?
I am sure most of us would have taken 10th at this stage. The key for me is keeping Benteke, Gabby, Vlaar and Delph fit for the majority of games. If we are able to field a team similar to the one that played at Anfield from here on in, then I think we'll have a decent run in.
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So just past the half way point of the season, and ignoring for a moment the specifics of how we got here, is sitting 10th on 24pts something that we would all have accepted at the start of the campaign? In terms of transition it is a significant step forward on a number of fronts, and we have taken a step back in some other areas. But where do we stand and what would now represent a satisfactory second half to the season?
If I ignore 80% of our performances this season then 10th on 24pts I would have taken in a heart beat.
The worry for me is that the young performers last season (Lowton, Westwood, Weimann etc) who were expected to kick on with another seasons experience have massively gone backwards and pose as many long term problem areas as they have solved overall.
Points wise, happy.
Performance wise, disappointed.
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yes, cracking the home issue is massive. I think we can all sit quite comfortably that wherever we go now when playing away from VP, we will always have a better than even chance of coming back with something. At home it has been nothing shirt of a disaster and it has to be something that needs addressing this January. A player or two to change the dynamic of how we set up and our entire philosophy on keeping the ball and pressing. Having watched the way we can play against Liverpool shows that these players can pass and move, but they need to have more belief in themselves when the expectation is that we do it at home. We cannot always play on the counter and we simply have to become a side that push opponents back. There is a good team in there, and if we can figure out the home form to any extent we will comfortably finish in the top half this season.
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If we were as good at home as we are away, then we'd be above Man United.
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We need to start winning some matches, too.
An upturn in performance at Anfield, and a slight improvement at the end of the Arsenal game, but our last 10 league results going back from this weekend are:
DLWDLLLLWD
That's 9 points from 30, and just 2 wins, which is really poor.
Since we beat Man City at home, Sept 28th, we've played P16 W3 D6 L7 - 15 points from 48 available in the last 3.5 months
Saturday was much improved, but on its own, as a single match, it will count for nothing if we don't actually build on it.
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what's crazy about that series of games is that despite those results we are 10th and after Man City we were in 9th. The gap above us has grown considerably, but the inconsistency and general averageness to shitness of everyone from about 10th on down has been maintained.
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1 win in the last 9 including the cup game is horrific it has to be said. We're 6 points off bottom, in another season that could see us in 19th position. But there is a good team in there somewhere. The next few weeks will be very interesting.
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We need to start winning some matches, too.
An upturn in performance at Anfield, and a slight improvement at the end of the Arsenal game, but our last 10 league results going back from this weekend are:
DLWDLLLLWD
That's 9 points from 30, and just 2 wins, which is really poor.
Since we beat Man City at home, Sept 28th, we've played P16 W3 D6 L7 - 15 points from 48 available in the last 3.5 months
Saturday was much improved, but on its own, as a single match, it will count for nothing if we don't actually build on it.
That's the point, Saturday's display has to be the start of improved performances and results.
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1 win in the last 9 including the cup game is horrific it has to be said. We're 6 points off bottom, in another season that could see us in 19th position. But there is a good team in there somewhere. The next few weeks will be very interesting.
in another season all of those other teams would be below us as well because they have less points. You cannot use the "another season" argument because it has no bearing on the current one.
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1 win in the last 9 including the cup game is horrific it has to be said. We're 6 points off bottom, in another season that could see us in 19th position. But there is a good team in there somewhere. The next few weeks will be very interesting.
I'm not going to look it up but I doubt very much that 24 points at this stage of the season has ever been 19th.
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The league position disguises what has been a pretty awful half season, we have gone backwards since the end of last season.
I cant help thinking that there is something very wrong behind the scenes.
There is 6 points separating 10 poor teams, we are just one of those poor teams.
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Blimey, you aren't half a miserable bugger at times. We played very well at the weekend. Benteke is looking like Benteke again and the rest have taken their queue.
We need to more consistently prove that a bit of a corner has been turned of late, but why seemingly hope for the worst?
We are in for a season that pans out like last I reckon. Just with plenty more points on the board before the form turns.
I have a suspicion we are going to destro the Olbiyun. So much so I requested the following day off work earlier.
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The league position disguises what has been a pretty awful half season, we have gone backwards since the end of last season.
I cant help thinking that there is something very wrong behind the scenes.
There is 6 points separating 10 poor teams, we are just one of those poor teams.
We're higher now than we finished last season but we must have gone backwards, just because we must have, therefore everyone else must have got even worse.
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I think ChicagoLion was refering to the way we finished the second half of last season and he has a point.
Comparing the table this time last year:
We've only got 4 more points than this time having played a game less.
The team in 10th position last season (Stoke) had five more points than we have today though they had played a game more.
We're six points above the relegation zone, last season Stoke were 10.
Big difference between this season and last is the number of teams that can realistically be considered relegation candidates - basically the bottom eleven. Last season it wasn't so tight down at the bottom. Staying in tenth place is probably the best we can hope for this season.
Just to add, last season we'd won 2, drawn 2 and lost 5 at home this time last year. This season, not that you'll need reminding, we've won 2, drawn 2 and lost 7 at Villa Park.
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We've also scored more and conceded less in total. We have more points. We're higher up the league. All these facts are a lot more relevant than some idea that it doesn't count because tenth this season is closer in points to the bottom than last season.
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Cheers Rudy
Its not too difficult, the last 10 games of last season we won 5,drew 2 and lost 3 that's 17 points. This season we have gained 24 points from 22 games.
The quality of many of those performances were a lot better than most of what we have seen so far.
I think that the disappointment is that we expected to kick on from last season, we haven't.
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Big difference between this season and last is the number of teams that can realistically be considered relegation candidates - basically the bottom eleven. Last season it wasn't so tight down at the bottom. Staying in tenth place is probably the best we can hope for this season.
Behave. We're 7 points off a Southampton team that have picked up 9 points in their last 10 matches. I don't think we'll catch anyone above them but with the exception of Newcastle I could've told you that at the start of the season.
As for comparisons to last year - we were in a relegation battle last year and we're in one this year. The difference is that this year we're starting the battle further away from the bloodshed.
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We've also scored more and conceded less in total. We have more points. We're higher up the league. All these facts are a lot more relevant than some idea that it doesn't count because tenth this season is closer in points to the bottom than last season.
The only really big difference from this time last season is the number of goals conceded. This time last year we'd conceded 44!! This season we're down to 29. That is progress.
We've managed to score 4 more goals that last season at this time, a positive but hardly worth getting the bunting out.
Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
If you're looking for encouraging signs then I suggest our performance on Saturday. The first half was a master class in how we can play given the right approach. We were brilliant, probably our best performance not only this season but in years and this we did at one of the hardest places in the league. I think we'll know by the end of the season whether Lambert is the right man to take us forward but right now he's been making very hard work of it and few signs we're actually progressing.
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Remember this?
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Big difference between this season and last is the number of teams that can realistically be considered relegation candidates - basically the bottom eleven. Last season it wasn't so tight down at the bottom. Staying in tenth place is probably the best we can hope for this season.
Behave. We're 7 points off a Southampton team that have picked up 9 points in their last 10 matches. I don't think we'll catch anyone above them but with the exception of Newcastle I could've told you that at the start of the season.
As for comparisons to last year - we were in a relegation battle last year and we're in one this year. The difference is that this year we're starting the battle further away from the bloodshed.
Behave? I'd be a lot more confident if we didn't have the worst home record in the league (or is it leagues?). My guess (hope) is we'll stuff the Baggies and like last season it will be season of two halves where we improve as the season progresses. Let's not bury our heads in the sand though, after 18 months in charge, Lambert's team have been playing some of the ugliest, most pointless football seen by a Villa team in years. Like some of his players, he's still learning the game and hopefully he'll get it right but right now he's lucky to have the backing and patience of his board, not to mention still be in a job.
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We've also scored more and conceded less in total. We have more points. We're higher up the league. All these facts are a lot more relevant than some idea that it doesn't count because tenth this season is closer in points to the bottom than last season.
The only really big difference from this time last season is the number of goals conceded. This time last year we'd conceded 44!! This season we're down to 29. That is progress.
We've managed to score 4 more goals that last season at this time, a positive but hardly worth getting the bunting out.
Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
If you're looking for encouraging signs then I suggest our performance on Saturday. The first half was a master class in how we can play given the right approach. We were brilliant, probably our best performance not only this season but in years and this we did at one of the hardest places in the league. I think we'll know by the end of the season whether Lambert is the right man to take us forward but right now he's been making very hard work of it and few signs we're actually progressing.
Apart from the aforementioned more scored, less conceded and more points.
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I do think there is too much naval gazing and over analysis going on. To me it's simple, we have, for pretty much the first time this season, our most influential players all fit and performing the way they did in the second part of last season.
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Remember this?
I most certainly do, Legion. Remember this?
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I do think there is too much naval gazing and over analysis going on. To me it's simple, we have, for pretty much the first time this season, our most influential players all fit and performing the way they did in the second part of last season.
Agreed.
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Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
Afraid it didn't.
You said Stoke were 10th at this stage last year? Well I know quite a few Stoke fans and when we went up there and beat them last year with Lowts' wonder goal most of those Stoke fans were convinced they were going down.
If there was one thing they didn't feel it was 'pretty safe from relegation'.
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Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
Afraid it didn't.
You said Stoke were 10th at this stage last year? Well I know quite a few Stoke fans and when we went up there and beat them last year with Lowts' wonder goal most of those Stoke fans were convinced they were going down.
If there was one thing they didn't feel it was 'pretty safe from relegation'.
Stoke dropped three places and finished 13th, pretty safe from relegation I'd say.
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Apart from the aforementioned more scored, less conceded and more points.
Rejoice!
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Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
Afraid it didn't.
You said Stoke were 10th at this stage last year? Well I know quite a few Stoke fans and when we went up there and beat them last year with Lowts' wonder goal most of those Stoke fans were convinced they were going down.
If there was one thing they didn't feel it was 'pretty safe from relegation'.
Stoke dropped three places and finished 13th, pretty safe from relegation I'd say.
We finished 1 point behind them last season, so on that basis, we were also pretty safe from relegation. Given we've got more points now than we had last year and you've told us Stoke were safe this time last year, I'd just kick back, relax and enjoy the rest of the season and its glorious mid-table mediocrity!!
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Poring over stats or points from various points of last season and comparing them to this doesn't really tell the whole story.
If we use Saturday as a departure point to start playing the way we can (and did sometimes last year) then we can maybe have a better second half of the season. That's cause for optimism, but we really have to do it, and we need to start winning more games.
At the same time, though, if we are going to take a great deal from points on the board, we can't ignore our points return from the last ten (or five, or any figure which you reflects current form) matches, which has been pretty atrocious.
Carry on like that for very much longer and we are on target to be in a relegation scrap.
Now is a good time to build on a decent performance, we have got to do it, no excuses.
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There has been progress, but it's progress like going from drowning to treading water is progress. We've still seen some extraordinarily bad results this season, and the football is still an extremely long way away from 'compelling'. Besides which, Lambert's tactics and approach seem to have got, if anything, worse - being midtable is fine, but midtable and nihilistically boring is just awful, pointless.
We played alright in the second half against Arsenal and brilliantly in the first half against Liverpool. I wasn't ecstatic over the reversion to boofiness in the second half of the latter game, especially given how well the 'passing the ball' approach had worked in the first half, but hey, it was better. Lambert just needs to show that he doesn't just get passing football and good performances from them one game in five, as if by luck - he needs to show that he can help the team produce it regularly.
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1 win in the last 9 including the cup game is horrific it has to be said. We're 6 points off bottom, in another season that could see us in 19th position. But there is a good team in there somewhere. The next few weeks will be very interesting.
in another season all of those other teams would be below us as well because they have less points. You cannot use the "another season" argument because it has no bearing on the current one.
I don't think it's a hard concept to understand, we are 6 points from a relegation spot, but unusually, considering this small points difference, we are 10th. Most years in the league such a points difference would have us much closer to, or even in, the relegation spots. The comparison is perfectly acceptable (and so has a 'bearing on' the current discussion) as it shows that this season is an unusual season as things stand with all of the teams up to 10th being so close and still taking points off of each other and even those teams above. It's an indication then that our 'lofty position' may be less down to our own improvement and more due to the nature of the league this season.
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Poring over stats or points from various points of last season and comparing them to this doesn't really tell the whole story.
If we use Saturday as a departure point to start playing the way we can (and did sometimes last year) then we can maybe have a better second half of the season. That's cause for optimism, but we really have to do it, and we need to start winning more games.
At the same time, though, if we are going to take a great deal from points on the board, we can't ignore our points return from the last ten (or five, or any figure which you reflects current form) matches, which has been pretty atrocious.
Carry on like that for very much longer and we are on target to be in a relegation scrap.
Now is a good time to build on a decent performance, we have got to do it, no excuses.
But looking at points return from certain spells of fixtures in isolation means nothing as it doesn't consider who we've played in those fixtures. Our last 10 league games look as follows in my book:
Sunderland (H) - 0-0 - Below par result
Southampton (A) - 2-3 - Above par
Fulham (A) - 2-0 - Below par
Man Utd (H) - 0-3 - Par
Stoke (A) - 2-1 - Below par
Palace (H) - 0-1 - Below par
Swansea (H) - 1-1 - Par
Sunderland (A) - 0-1 - Above par
Arsenal (H) - 1-2 - Par
Liverpool (A) - 2-2 - Above par
So by my reckoning, during the last 10 games where its been said we've been on a horrible run of form, with key players out injured, compared to what we'd have expected before those games I reckon we did better than expected in 3 of them, in line with expectation in 3 and below expectation in 4. So all in all, not the most horrendous return its made out to be.
We've got a decent run of games now and should be aiming for at least 11 points from the next 6 matches (winning our 3 home games and drawing 2 of the three away). If we do this we'll be on 35 points at the start of March and will be virtually home and hosed.
But if we do what we did when we had our last good run of games (over Christmas) it'll make the rest of March look frightening and the end of the season arse-clenchingly painful.
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The problem I have with that is, if you look at our league placing this year it's been pretty consistently in 10-13 since about the 6th game, even with a bad run of form. An upturn in our form will be very welcome and will make things much safer but I still believe that our form would have to dip a lot further for us to end up getting really drawn in to the battle.
The main reason for that is that there are 3 teams that are significantly better than the rest of the league, and who will all likely finish with over 80 points. The last time that happened was 08/09 where Newcastle went down in 18th place with 34 points and Hull and Sunderland survived with 35 and 36 respectively. The top sides this year are actually better off than they were that year so the bottom half is even more concentrated than it was that season. There also wasn't a clear gap between the top half and bottom half as there is this season, which again will only serve to further lower the points totals for the bottom sides.
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Poring over stats or points from various points of last season and comparing them to this doesn't really tell the whole story.
If we use Saturday as a departure point to start playing the way we can (and did sometimes last year) then we can maybe have a better second half of the season. That's cause for optimism, but we really have to do it, and we need to start winning more games.
At the same time, though, if we are going to take a great deal from points on the board, we can't ignore our points return from the last ten (or five, or any figure which you reflects current form) matches, which has been pretty atrocious.
Carry on like that for very much longer and we are on target to be in a relegation scrap.
Now is a good time to build on a decent performance, we have got to do it, no excuses.
But looking at points return from certain spells of fixtures in isolation means nothing as it doesn't consider who we've played in those fixtures. Our last 10 league games look as follows in my book:
Sunderland (H) - 0-0 - Below par result
Southampton (A) - 2-3 - Above par
Fulham (A) - 2-0 - Below par
Man Utd (H) - 0-3 - Par
Stoke (A) - 2-1 - Below par
Palace (H) - 0-1 - Below par
Swansea (H) - 1-1 - Par
Sunderland (A) - 0-1 - Above par
Arsenal (H) - 1-2 - Par
Liverpool (A) - 2-2 - Above par
So by my reckoning, during the last 10 games where its been said we've been on a horrible run of form, with key players out injured, compared to what we'd have expected before those games I reckon we did better than expected in 3 of them, in line with expectation in 3 and below expectation in 4. So all in all, not the most horrendous return its made out to be.
We've got a decent run of games now and should be aiming for at least 11 points from the next 6 matches (winning our 3 home games and drawing 2 of the three away). If we do this we'll be on 35 points at the start of March and will be virtually home and hosed.
But if we do what we did when we had our last good run of games (over Christmas) it'll make the rest of March look frightening and the end of the season arse-clenchingly painful.
It's not just a certain run if fixtures, though, it is the most recent run if fixtures, and therefore is significantly more relevant.
Nine points from 30 is abysmal, and absolutely a relegation points return, there's no way of avoiding the fact that we must improve on this.
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Fucking ipad changing of to if ^^^^^
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We played alright in the second half against Arsenal and brilliantly in the first half against Liverpool. I wasn't ecstatic over the reversion to boofiness in the second half of the latter game, especially given how well the 'passing the ball' approach had worked in the first half, but hey, it was better. Lambert just needs to show that he doesn't just get passing football and good performances from them one game in five, as if by luck - he needs to show that he can help the team produce it regularly.
See I saw the Liverpool game completely differently.
I thought Lambert did his research brilliantly and set up our tactics accordingly by telling Andi to sit on Gerrard and stop him playing when they had the ball whilst telling Gabby to stretch their defence when we had the ball.
2nd half things changed as Rodgers put Lucas in Gerrard's place and pushed him forward where Andi couldn't sensibly follow and Gabby went off injured so we lost that outlet. Unfortunately whereas Liverpool have the squad to change things about, we don't.
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I thought the Liverpool game was good, full stop.
First half we showed adventure and creativity. Second half we showed resolve and nous.
It was certainly good by comparison to most other games this season.
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1 win in the last 9 including the cup game is horrific it has to be said. We're 6 points off bottom, in another season that could see us in 19th position. But there is a good team in there somewhere. The next few weeks will be very interesting.
in another season all of those other teams would be below us as well because they have less points. You cannot use the "another season" argument because it has no bearing on the current one.
I don't think it's a hard concept to understand, we are 6 points from a relegation spot, but unusually, considering this small points difference, we are 10th. Most years in the league such a points difference would have us much closer to, or even in, the relegation spots. The comparison is perfectly acceptable (and so has a 'bearing on' the current discussion) as it shows that this season is an unusual season as things stand with all of the teams up to 10th being so close and still taking points off of each other and even those teams above. It's an indication then that our 'lofty position' may be less down to our own improvement and more due to the nature of the league this season.
Every season is unique from the last. What happened last year and how teams lined up with points and where they would be this year is good for discussion and debate but ultimately means nothing at all. All that matters this season as it relates to those teams around us in a similar boat is that we are better off than them. And if you want to draw a comparison to last season then last seasom we were lower in the table compared to our "peer group" so to speak. So either we have improved albeit marginally or the others are worse. I'd prefer to look at it from the first perspective and consider us doing well but could do much better.
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It has been observed that Paul Lambert sides generally get stronger during the run in. Therefore I am optimistic.
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We have also had Vlaar out injured and Benteke not fit. I expect us to not be involved this year at all. Is all very well saying we are only 6 points above the relegation zone but 8 teams have to over take us in the run in and judging by the previous 22 games it will take the teams in the bottom three 7 games to make up a 6 point gap.
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It's a funny one. Our good performances are few, our poor performances are many. We don't have as many points on the board as I would have hoped and yet we are the 10th best club in the league.
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Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
Afraid it didn't.
You said Stoke were 10th at this stage last year? Well I know quite a few Stoke fans and when we went up there and beat them last year with Lowts' wonder goal most of those Stoke fans were convinced they were going down.
If there was one thing they didn't feel it was 'pretty safe from relegation'.
Stoke dropped three places and finished 13th, pretty safe from relegation I'd say.
We finished 1 point behind them last season, so on that basis, we were also pretty safe from relegation. Given we've got more points now than we had last year and you've told us Stoke were safe this time last year, I'd just kick back, relax and enjoy the rest of the season and its glorious mid-table mediocrity!!
Ignoring the additional points Stoke had last season, Lambert has certainly manages to get us playing like them.
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Back to the Original Post.
There is no transition, we have just another chancer juggling his knowledge and skill with a limited budget and the legacy of previous decisions.
The Paul Lamberts of this world end up managing football teams because they have absolutely no chance of doing anything else as lucrative.
It does not look anything like transition, it looks like consolidation.
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There's more than one Paul Lambert?
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The Paul Lamberts of this world end up managing football teams because they have absolutely no chance of doing anything else as lucrative.
That's a bit unfair. He might not be getting it right (all the time) but he's not taken the easy options once deciding to become a coach. He took his badges in Germany when it'd have been much easier to do them in scotland because he thought the quality was better in Germany.
A pilot I know regularly flies him back to Germany. My mates said that he is continuing to study in some capacity over there, which is not something he needs to do. Couple that with known trips to Barcelona to see the Masia and continued connections with Dortmund.
He's not exactly Paul Ince who thinks he is above doing the hard graft but yet picking up a healthy pay packet every few seasons.
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His managerial record thus far has been pretty good. Not bad for somebody who is just a chancer.
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Agreed, Ads. People seem to forget, Lambert is still learning the managerial game and given time, he may turn out to be a decent manager. The manager's job at Villa has got to be one of the toughest around and I'm guessing Lerner and Faulkner have gambled that he'll grow into it. Credit to him for wanting to improve as Dante mentioned. He much like our young squad - plenty of potential and hopefully he can make the grade in the Premier League, if not the Championship will certainly see him employed.
Chancer, he ain't.
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Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
Afraid it didn't.
You said Stoke were 10th at this stage last year? Well I know quite a few Stoke fans and when we went up there and beat them last year with Lowts' wonder goal most of those Stoke fans were convinced they were going down.
If there was one thing they didn't feel it was 'pretty safe from relegation'.
Stoke dropped three places and finished 13th, pretty safe from relegation I'd say.
We finished 1 point behind them last season, so on that basis, we were also pretty safe from relegation. Given we've got more points now than we had last year and you've told us Stoke were safe this time last year, I'd just kick back, relax and enjoy the rest of the season and its glorious mid-table mediocrity!!
Ignoring the additional points Stoke had last season, Lambert has certainly manages to get us playing like them.
That's total nonsense. Stoke built a system that relied almost exclusively on winning dead balls and piling loads of big men into the box to exploit the delivery, be it from long throws, corners or free kicks. There has absolutely no relation to the way we play.
We clearly haven't performed as well as we should for much of this season but to suggest we go out with a Pulis style game plan is a complete fabrication.
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Last season 10th place at this time saw you pretty safe from relegation, this season it doesn't.
Afraid it didn't.
You said Stoke were 10th at this stage last year? Well I know quite a few Stoke fans and when we went up there and beat them last year with Lowts' wonder goal most of those Stoke fans were convinced they were going down.
If there was one thing they didn't feel it was 'pretty safe from relegation'.
Stoke dropped three places and finished 13th, pretty safe from relegation I'd say.
We finished 1 point behind them last season, so on that basis, we were also pretty safe from relegation. Given we've got more points now than we had last year and you've told us Stoke were safe this time last year, I'd just kick back, relax and enjoy the rest of the season and its glorious mid-table mediocrity!!
Ignoring the additional points Stoke had last season, Lambert has certainly manages to get us playing like them.
That's total nonsense. Stoke built a system that relied almost exclusively on winning dead balls and piling loads of big men into the box to exploit the delivery, be it from long throws, corners or free kicks. There has absolutely no relation to the way we play.
We clearly haven't performed as well as we should for much of this season but to suggest we go out with a Pulis style game plan is a complete fabrication.
It's been just as ugly, as you well know Chris. Different tactics (assuming Lambert's been using tactics) but the end result is the same.
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It's not been nice, but it's nowhere like Stoke under Pulis. How many opponents have moaned about the way we play for throw ins, intimidate the officials and mass-foul?
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That last point is open for debate. Aren't we the team with more bookings this season? Nothing really nasty but we must average 3 bookings a game.
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That last point is open for debate. Aren't we the team with more bookings this season? Nothing really nasty but we must average 3 bookings a game.
This has happened a lot in games which aren't going our way. The lads lose their rag a little and we've been very fortunate not to have a few red cards. This however, can be helped by bringing in a few older heads to just compose things on the pitch. We miss the presence of someone like Stan in midfield and we sorely missed Vlaar when he was injured.
Lambert at least seems to be addressing our lack of experience. It appeared in the summer that he felt we could get by without it, but he's at least identified that we need a little more nous in our side.
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It's not been nice, but it's nowhere like Stoke under Pulis. How many opponents have moaned about the way we play for throw ins, intimidate the officials and mass-foul?
This is the point. We may have approached Pulis' Stoke in ugliness terms, but 1) we've got there by accident not design, and 2) we're not thuggish to the point of evil.
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Our first half display against the in form at home team Liverpool suggests that we are a million miles from Stoke under Pullis. There have been times when our football has looked nothing better than industrial where a comparison could be made but this falls down when you see our inability to take a short throw let alone a long one.
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A lot of our fouls/bookings are down to naivety more than anything else, to put it simply, our players aren't canny enough to give someone a kick without getting caught, we're no more or less dirty than most sides in the league as far as I'm concerned.
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Guzan has again said 'we'll go again' relating to the Albion game.
It is definitely wearing off onto the players and is proof of our transition.
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Guzan has again said 'we'll go again' relating to the Albion game.
It is definitely wearing off onto the players and is proof of our transition.
I won't be convinced until benteke is asked about his return to goalscoring form and replies " och aye the noo "
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It's not been nice, but it's nowhere like Stoke under Pulis. How many opponents have moaned about the way we play for throw ins, intimidate the officials and mass-foul?
This is the point. We may have approached Pulis' Stoke in ugliness terms, but 1) we've got there by accident not design, and 2) we're not thuggish to the point of evil.
This is the slightly weird thing. I don't think we want to be playing such fidgid/direct football. If that was the case we'd have plans when we get a throw in for example. Or the team would collectively anticipate Guzan's punts and leg it out of defence to compress the play. Furthermore we'd push men forward to increase the chance of us winning second balls from crosses/throw in/punts etc. None of this happens. Right now these long balls seem to be happening in isolation from typical Charles Hughes type tactics.
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It's not been nice, but it's nowhere like Stoke under Pulis. How many opponents have moaned about the way we play for throw ins, intimidate the officials and mass-foul?
This is the point. We may have approached Pulis' Stoke in ugliness terms, but 1) we've got there by accident not design, and 2) we're not thuggish to the point of evil.
This is the slightly weird thing. I don't think we want to be playing such fidgid/direct football. If that was the case we'd have plans when we get a throw in for example. Or the team would collectively anticipate Guzan's punts and leg it out of defence to compress the play. Furthermore we'd push men forward to increase the chance of us winning second balls from crosses/throw in/punts etc. None of this happens. Right now these long balls seem to be happening in isolation from typical Charles Hughes type tactics.
Don't forget the times when we do try and play it from the back and usually spend end up passing the ball sideways for what seems like ages because nobody seems to know what to do next before the ball goes back to Guzan. A no. 10 would (hopefully) improve this situation.
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It's not been nice, but it's nowhere like Stoke under Pulis. How many opponents have moaned about the way we play for throw ins, intimidate the officials and mass-foul?
This is the point. We may have approached Pulis' Stoke in ugliness terms, but 1) we've got there by accident not design, and 2) we're not thuggish to the point of evil.
This is the slightly weird thing. I don't think we want to be playing such fidgid/direct football. If that was the case we'd have plans when we get a throw in for example. Or the team would collectively anticipate Guzan's punts and leg it out of defence to compress the play. Furthermore we'd push men forward to increase the chance of us winning second balls from crosses/throw in/punts etc. None of this happens. Right now these long balls seem to be happening in isolation from typical Charles Hughes type tactics.
I also think the 'long ball' thing has been exaggerated by a few. We do try to play but we quickly run out of ideas against sides that pack the midfield and make it difficult to find space, particularly at home.
What invariably happens is we start off trying to do the right thing then, when we fail to score, the crowd becomes impatient and players take the easy option.
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I don't think we are anything like Sturk. We have plan A which is counter attack, this works when we press and win the ball early and are able to spring attacks with pace.
When we don't we just play square or backward passes which often ends up with a hoof or misplaced pass.
The movement off the ball seems to be the real problem and the ability to pick the pass quickly.
The first half against Liverpool showed that we can play.
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I saw the title of the thread wondered but alas i was wrong...Not a sex change thread then ..
Fuckers !
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It's not been nice, but it's nowhere like Stoke under Pulis. How many opponents have moaned about the way we play for throw ins, intimidate the officials and mass-foul?
This is the point. We may have approached Pulis' Stoke in ugliness terms, but 1) we've got there by accident not design, and 2) we're not thuggish to the point of evil.
This is the slightly weird thing. I don't think we want to be playing such fidgid/direct football. If that was the case we'd have plans when we get a throw in for example. Or the team would collectively anticipate Guzan's punts and leg it out of defence to compress the play. Furthermore we'd push men forward to increase the chance of us winning second balls from crosses/throw in/punts etc. None of this happens. Right now these long balls seem to be happening in isolation from typical Charles Hughes type tactics.
I also think the 'long ball' thing has been exaggerated by a few. We do try to play but we quickly run out of ideas against sides that pack the midfield and make it difficult to find space, particularly at home.
What invariably happens is we start off trying to do the right thing then, when we fail to score, the crowd becomes impatient and players take the easy option.
The stats don't say it's exaggerated - we've played the second highest number of long balls in the league this season and the third fewest short passes (an important statistic, because Southampton marginally beat us on long balls played but have also played the 5th most short passes, suggesting that their long passes aren't so much of the 'aimless hoof' type). I grant you that it's probably because they run out of ideas very quickly, but that doesn't reflect well on the manager either - his job is to try and train them to play as a team and stop them resorting to the hoof so quickly.
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I saw the title of the thread wondered but alas i was wrong...Not a sex change thread then ..
Fuckers !
Feel free to start one if you have something to tell us.
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I saw the title of the thread wondered but alas i was wrong...Not a sex change thread then ..
Fuckers !
Eh?
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I'm pretty sure even at their anti football worst Stoke under Pulis had higher possession than 25% or whatever it was v Southampton/Swansea.
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I saw the title of the thread wondered but alas i was wrong...Not a sex change thread then ..
Fuckers !
I think VK has a confession.
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I'm pretty sure even at their anti football worst Stoke under Pulis had higher possession than 25% or whatever it was v Southampton/Swansea.
Indeed. Their tactics were very specifically long-ball - ours are more muddled, unclear, indeterminate. It's not necessarily the plan to play like that, it's just the result of incompetence from everyone, and the manager cannot be excluded from that.
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I'm pretty sure even at their anti football worst Stoke under Pulis had higher possession than 25% or whatever it was v Southampton/Swansea.
Indeed. Their tactics were very specifically long-ball - ours are more muddled, unclear, indeterminate. It's not necessarily the plan to play like that, it's just the result of incompetence from everyone, and the manager cannot be excluded from that.
Good job we won then.
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I'm pretty sure even at their anti football worst Stoke under Pulis had higher possession than 25% or whatever it was v Southampton/Swansea.
Indeed. Their tactics were very specifically long-ball - ours are more muddled, unclear, indeterminate. It's not necessarily the plan to play like that, it's just the result of incompetence from everyone, and the manager cannot be excluded from that.
Good job we won then.
Fair enough, the Southampton game was a fine counterrattacking performance, but Swansea was a really dreadful performance where we lucky not to lose.
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Three attacks, three goals.
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Three attacks, three goals.
It was immensely effective. Sadly, most of our other performances are hardly at a rate of a goal per every attack.
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We have been long ball for a lot of this year. It's partly by design - Guzan used to roll the ball out a fair bit last year, he almost never does that now - but it looks like it's just the easy option and lack of form too
Hopefully the Liverpool game is the start of us getting on the front foot, passing it on the floor a bit more
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I made these. Possibly useful. Has no bearing on the very real style issues obviously.
(http://i.imgur.com/TnJKQzx.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/fxsLTVi.png)
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Very pretty. Second graph is point accumulation per match?
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Very pretty. Second graph is point accumulation per match?
Thanks. Yup thats what the second one is. I will label it next time.
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Very pretty. Second graph is point accumulation per match?
No, it's the rate of my hair loss.
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I don't think this is what transition looks like. I think this what a, ahem, bright future looks like. We are at the end of the transition, this is the end product.
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I think it's very disappointing that we don't appear to try anything new at home and how technically deficient our players are. It's staggering just how poor our passing is at times, and how appalling the positioning of Lowton or Baker is.
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Rumors that we are interested in Chamakh from Palace.
Is this what transition is ?
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That'll be a no from me. Poor player and would also demand to be on big wages (for us).
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Rumors that we are interested in Chamakh from Palace.
Is this what transition is ?
Looked handy against Hoolahan:
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Great set of results for us yesterday. The only one that didn't really go to plan was the Hull one but the bottom 3 all lost.
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Great set of results for us yesterday. The only one that didn't really go to plan was the Hull one but the bottom 3 all lost.
I am glad to see another nail hammered into the coffin of a team already in the bottom three. None of this 'lets drag others into it'. Thew fewer spots 'for grabs' in the bottom three the happier I will be.
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Great set of results for us yesterday. The only one that didn't really go to plan was the Hull one but the bottom 3 all lost.
I am glad to see another nail hammered into the coffin of a team already in the bottom three. None of this 'lets drag others into it'. Thew fewer spots 'for grabs' in the bottom three the happier I will be.
I'd just prefer teams below us didn't win. A better result in that one would've been a draw for me.
Cardiff looked terrible. Their defending would've looked embarrassing in the 2nd division.
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No, it`s what the demise of a once-great sporting institution looks like.
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No, it`s what the demise of a once-great sporting institution looks like.
Absolutely and what's more, our demise is now inevitable and imminent.
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In a funny way, we are being punished for not putting up more of a fuss. As a whole, Villa fans still appear to be sending the message to RL that this is acceptable. We keep turning out large attendances and there are no visible protests at the way the club is being run.
Now, that's normally a good thing and shows restrain but surely the only way RL is going to be forced to change matters is if the fans vote with their feet. Otherwise we could be in for another several years of incompetence and punching hugely under our weight.
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We are definitely going backwards, this time last year we were playing much better football.
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Just talking to a guy I met through the Irish Lions in 2009. We both feel villa are just a club in decline. There's no fight anywhere and certainly no dynamism. It is very sad.
As an aside, I know brummies will laugh at me for this but the Irish Lions have over 4,000 likes on facebook and have always been as active, if not more so, than the official villa page. However, there hasn't been an update since the west ham game. I don't know why as a great committee runs the club. It just seems to encapsulate our whole malaise right now.
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This has been a wretched season. How many games have we now failed to score in this season? And we actually have a really good forward playing for us but the worst midfield in the league when tasked with creating chances.
What's wretched for me is the occasions we've actually won an entertaining exciting game (Arsenal, Man. City, Southampton and WBA) which lead me to be optimistic and think we could go on a run, we've followed it up with horrendous form so pointless even winning games nowadays as our form declines even more than just after draws.
Just not good enough.
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Utter dire season and can only get worse.
Now 4th year in a row being in a relegation fight under Lambert there has been no progress in fact we are playing worse than last season.The Jan window was an disgrace the one position we desperately needed filling went unfilled again I can only assume due to lack of funds and a belief we were comfortable in the league.Well we weren't then and we certainly are not now.
As it stands only Cardiff are playing worse than us IMO.Other are currently below but from the games I have watched recently only Cardiff look as inept as us
March is going to be very tough we need to beat Norwich to get some breathing space , lose that and I see us dropping into the bottom 3 during march given the games we have coming up ..Chelsea , United and City.
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It's the absence of ball retention; the inability to impose ourselves on the game; the sense that our attacking effort will wither; the inevitability of the late concession.
It's the lack of expectation that the manager will make a game-changing decision; and the fact that - before they come on - we know that the substitutes will not change the game, because they are even worse than the players already on the pitch. It's the knowledge that the opposition know they can turn us over; and the fact that if one of our defenders has a blinder, one or two others will have a mare.
Supporting a football team is almost-always an exercise in hope over expectation: supporting Villa at this time in the club's history is an exercise in futility and nihilism.
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To compare against the same point last season:
2012/13 2013/14
Played 27 27
Won 5 7
Drawn 9 7
Lost 13 13
For 26 20
Away 52 39
Pts 24 28
So we have scored less, conceeded less and turned 2 draws into wins
Not sure if that really counts as improvement as our play at the moment is bloody awful
Just for balance here is our position in the two preceeding seasons:
2011/12 2010/11
Played 27 27
Won 6 7
Drawn 12 9
Lost 9 11
For 30 31
Away 35 46
Pts 30 30
Se we are worse in terms of points than in 2010/11 and 2011/12
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Very depressing reading in all honesty we deserve to go down for being shit for 4 years running.
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It looks like Wendy James. Oh, that's Transvision Vamp.
Wrong thread.
You got to admit she's a looker then though.
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I've said it before, this isn't transition. This is it.
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I've said it before, this isn't transition. This is it.
Unless of course, transition means we're on our way to somewhere worse! That seems quite likely at the moment.
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The problem stems to the summer, where essentially the same exercise as the previous one took place; i.e. lots of cheaper players at a modest cost.
We of course need a squad, but then we also need quality. I think this more than anything needs addressing come the summer.
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What Lerner doesn't seem to understand is that success is self-sustaining. You spend on decent players, you attract others, which makes you more likely to be successful, and so on. You pay peanuts, it's only a matter of time before you get found out. You don't get to dine at the ritz if you can't pay the bill.
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Transition doesn't look that bad at times...
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Today, the midfield which has been criticized over the course of the season looked like a PL midfield and played some lovely lovely stuff. We really mixed it up today, some lovely moves and efficient when we needed to be. You add 2 or 3 starting quality footballers to that side and all of a sudden we are pushing into Everton range of where we will be looking to finish every season. Europe would be very much part of our plans come next summer.
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Slowly but surely I think we are getting there. With what we will be signing in the summer i'm quietly confident next season will be a much bigger step forward. And we show in infuriating glimpses now what we are capable of.
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Villa V Stoke will be 10th vs 11th next week. Nice, anonymous mid table clash.
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What a difference 3 weeks makes....
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What a difference 3 weeks makes....
Very true.
Let's be honest, though. Anybody who has attended most of our home games in recent years had legitimate cause for complaint, to say the least.
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Absolutely delighted, 90 minute performance, tight at the back a beautiful goal and wild celebrations. Can't ask for any more than that. Up the Villa.
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What a difference 3 weeks makes....
Very true.
Let's be honest, though. Anybody who has attended most of our home games in recent years had legitimate cause for complaint, to say the least.
Correct. Fans can handle being mid to upper mid table bollocks provided the genuine fans who go every week (not me) see a proper game of football every other week. Not Sunderland, Palace, Sheff Utd, Man Utd and far too many others over the last 4 years.
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You don't get to dine at the ritz if you can't pay the bill.
Exactly right. As our accounts show we cannot afford to buy complete players at the moment so we have to try something different.
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Our players are good enough to consistently play like they have in the last two home games. Games like Palace, West Ham at home are not good enough at all. We were negative, lacked composure and were awful.
Players like Westwood and KEA may not be quite good enough to be first choice for 38 games a season. They are however good enough to be part of the squad and play their part when they step in.
If we show some composure, use a bit of nous and show attacking intent we're a half decent side. We should really be a lot closer to Soton and Newcastle really, because in terms of quality and ability we're up there with them.
Our home form seems to be heading in the right direction now. 3 wins from our last 4. The West Ham was another step back to woeful after a good derby win. But again the three wins we attacked and tried to play football. The West Ham game we were negative and lacked composure and confidence against a side playing without a front man.
We can do it when we set our minds to it. Lambert can get us playing football. A bit of movement a bit of consideration is all it takes. We don't have to resort to hoof ball so quickly, because when we do we look hopeless.
Our next two home games are very winnable. 4 points at least would represent a very good return and keep some VP momentum building. Two wins on the spin is a good base to start putting together a run where we can start getting our home form back to a reasonable level.
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Question is will we capitalise on a genuinely promising performance or will we take a step backwards as we have so often before?
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Question is will we capitalise on a genuinely promising performance or will we take a step backwards as we have so often before?
We shall see I guess, but hopefully we're learning.
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Question is will we capitalise on a genuinely promising performance or will we take a step backwards as we have so often before?
Exactly.
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The one thing that I hope yesterday proved was that if we want to make Villa Park a fortress, it requires team and fans all pulling in the same direction. A rocking Villa Park is an intimidating place for visitors to come to: for too long we've allowed it to become a place that other teams look forward to visiting.
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Agreed. The players pressing high generates a very good atmosphere, it doesn't take world class goals or amazing passing play to get the fans on side. It's all about effort and winning the ball back. Those basics will see us turn Villa Park into the place it was a few years back.
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I think the pressing high is critical to play at home. I mean every Villa fan who enters the ground wants Villa to win and they want to cheer the team on, if the team gives the slightest encouragement they'll get terrific support.
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Question is will we capitalise on a genuinely promising performance or will we take a step backwards as we have so often before?
We shall see I guess, but hopefully we're learning.
We've got a great opportunity to make it 3 home wins on the bounce. That would be absolutely fantastic for us given the last few years. It should be entirely do-able too. Stoke will be a very tough game of course, but as long as we approach it in the right mindset and look to press them and attack them.
As long as we don't lose that's the main thing. Just to get some semblance of home form going would do us wonders I think. We've got to set our stall out to win this game. No chopping or changing. Keep the same side and push again for another win. Most of all, we can't rest on our laurels.
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Question is will we capitalise on a genuinely promising performance or will we take a step backwards as we have so often before?
We shall see I guess, but hopefully we're learning.
We've got a great opportunity to make it 3 home wins on the bounce. That would be absolutely fantastic for us given the last few years. It should be entirely do-able too. Stoke will be a very tough game of course, but as long as we approach it in the right mindset and look to press them and attack them.
As long as we don't lose that's the main thing. Just to get some semblance of home form going would do us wonders I think. We've got to set our stall out to win this game. No chopping or changing. Keep the same side and push again for another win. Most of all, we can't rest on our laurels.
Well said supertom. Spot on.
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If this is transition I'll settle for staying in transition for a while yet.
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No, this is what a club in seemingly irreversible decline looks like.
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If this is transition I'll settle for staying in transition for a while yet.
Less than a month ago we were talking about Villa's best performance under Lambert. Funny old game.
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The idea of the club being self sufficient is obviously correct, unfortunately we don't have the revenue streams to allow us to be self sufficient at an acceptable performance level.
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EDIT- Wrong thread.