Is this what transition looks like?

[supertom]

Very well put Dribbler.

Just going quickly back to the Houllier thing discussed on another thread. What he was putting into place could have had us looking very good at this point. Now obviously the health matters couldn't be helped, but the appointment of Alex McLeish was a monumental leap back. So whilst I'm kind of someone in a middle ground regarding Lambert, he was given a hell of a task and a lot of mess to clean up. Had Houllier stayed two seasons and then passed the reigns over to a boss like Martinez (we did approach Roberto before McLeish, but I do think it was a year too early for him anyway) I think we'd be seeing a far better example of transition.

Again the polar shift with Randy from free spending to scraping the pennies at the bottom of the jar are an indication of his lack of footballing nous. He bought into the O Neill aura I think. Martin had seemingly top to bottom control. That did get us top 6 and a cup final granted but it also made us financially unsound (to put it mildly). Had Randy had a decent football man at the club to advise him, we might have spread those finances better, so that we'd at least still be competing in the markets that say Southampton are buying from (as an example). But essentially any money we've spent since O Neill left has largely come from selling O Neill's better assets. When they were all gone we were left with his turkeys which had no sell on value and crippling wages.

I appreciate the ethos Lambert is undertaking but I think we've gone too far to the other side. You can sometimes get a gut feeling about a player, or a decent idea from half a dozen games, that they're not quite up to it at this level. We've all seen it before. For me, I'm sorry to say, but Bennett, KEA, Bowery, Helenius and Tonev all look like the sort of players we'll struggle to remember played for us in 10 years time. They'll be part of the time wasters forum, in the remember him thread. Luna, Lowton, Sylla, Westwood, Steer and Kozak have potential but I wouldn't put money on any of them making it long term. Okore I would, he looks better. Benteke has been the stroke of genius, but unless he regains his form (he will I'm sure) then it won't be quite the master stroke we thought it was in May.

We didn't need to sign 7-8 players in the summer who may or may not be Premier League quality. We could have bought in 2-3 more established players (not necessarily from this league but from at least near equivalent standard). Then maybe 2-3 more young prospects in addition. We spent what 20 mill over the summer? Had we spent 20 mill on 4 players as opposed to spreading it on 7 (most of whom are long shot punts) chances are we'd have better players. Quality doesn't always correlate to price but you've more chance of getting a good player for 5 million than you do for under a million.

January is key. We are mid-table but this league can change in a matter of weeks and the way we're playing currently is asking for trouble.

[mattjpa]

Not wanting to open up a wish list type debate but I think that mixing what he bought in with a couple of decent older pros would have done us wonders this year. Gareth Barry was a missed opportunity. There is other value out there as well - Lescott, Essien, Parker, Berbatov or Benayoun could have all done a job for us. And before people get on saying these players are not good enough, any of them could have played a bit part role in the first team but all would offer experience to a young squad/team. There is a reason no other team has tried to do this with purely young and inexperienced players - it doesnt work....A mix of youth and experience is vital and players of this ilk would have given some of our new lads a bit more time to get up to speed and ease the transition

[brontebilly]

Good posts lads. This season reminds me too much of the McLeish where we were 8th around this stage of the season. However I think everyone knew that was a false position. A few injuries and we fell apart at the seams.
Worried with Vlaar having calf problems again, Benteke just doesn't look right physically or mentally. With the exception of Delph I don't think a single player is playing well at the moment.

Think when Lambert came in he badly underestimated the scale of the task ahead of him. Dunne's injury left him short at the back but was it really necessary to let James Collins go to West Ham at the time? Guess he thought he would get the likes of Ireland, Nzogbia, Bent back into form and bring some younger players in to supplement them. Like any manager some of his signings have been utter gash but I've no idea why he thought Bennett and Kea would make it at this level.

He made bad decisions in the summer really. Signing Kozak and Helenius when midfield needed to be strengthened. Unlucky with Okore who looked a player and his bomb squad antics were unnecessary.

[Ads]

I cannot agree with the exprienced players line. These were the same players who had let us down, badly, over two seasons previously. When you add in the attitude to alcohol and attitudes towards coaching staff who happen to be legends, then good fucking rid to the lot.

[Ian.]

I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly.  Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.

Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?

[supertom]

I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly.  Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.

Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?

It's not so much the players we had. But it shouldn't mean we don't go back to experienced players. Vlaar without his injury last season would probably have settled quicker, so a signing or two more of his ilk could be good. The only player from  O Neill's old guard who might have proved vaguely useful was Dunney. As much as his attitude wasn't always fantastic (and he was one of the main troublemakers for Houllier), he's actually a decent player. Obviously fitness was the issue in that regard. Though frustratingly he's barely missed a game for Rangers and by most accounts from R's fans he's been a cut above.
Benty indeed might have helped.
Barry or Parker would have been very good for us. Lescott too. I think we could perhaps have taken Barry or Lescott on loan from City without having to take on their whole wage bill. There's probably good players in the other top leagues who could be bought in for a reasonable fee. There's a lot of clubs in Europes top leagues having to sell players to help their finances. Again that goes back to the fact that Newcastle could get a bargain like Cabaye. The rest of their cheap French contingent are also now settling in nicely and delivering the goods.

One thing we're really missing in midfield is a bit of nous and experience and a cool head. We haven't replaced Stan and that's something that needs addressing.

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

[fredm]

The other thing about having older, experienced players is not necessarily what they bring to the team in matches but what they bring to the squad on the training ground. Would Westwood (for example) gain more from opposing/working with Scott Parker than KEA? Would the defenders gain more from having a Gareth Barry sliding passes between them? Would the older/experienced player be able to tell them what they should be doing to correct their faults?

That is one advantage the tops clubs have. Imagine Jones/Smalling up against Rooney/RVP in training I think they will learn quicker than if they were up against Gabby and Andi.

[Ian.]

I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly.  Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.

Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?

It's not so much the players we had. But it shouldn't mean we don't go back to experienced players. Vlaar without his injury last season would probably have settled quicker, so a signing or two more of his ilk could be good. The only player from  O Neill's old guard who might have proved vaguely useful was Dunney. As much as his attitude wasn't always fantastic (and he was one of the main troublemakers for Houllier), he's actually a decent player. Obviously fitness was the issue in that regard. Though frustratingly he's barely missed a game for Rangers and by most accounts from R's fans he's been a cut above.
Benty indeed might have helped.
Barry or Parker would have been very good for us. Lescott too. I think we could perhaps have taken Barry or Lescott on loan from City without having to take on their whole wage bill. There's probably good players in the other top leagues who could be bought in for a reasonable fee. There's a lot of clubs in Europes top leagues having to sell players to help their finances. Again that goes back to the fact that Newcastle could get a bargain like Cabaye. The rest of their cheap French contingent are also now settling in nicely and delivering the goods.

One thing we're really missing in midfield is a bit of nous and experience and a cool head. We haven't replaced Stan and that's something that needs addressing.

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

I would not criticise Lambert for not using the most of the so called experienced players from the past 3-5 years. For one reason or another they had to go. However I do completely agree we do need some quality experience in the team, especially someone with a bit of leadership and quality about them. You can pick players up on loan or even on a free but this wage cap is our problem though isn't it? This really needs to be addressed in the summer for us to have further progress.

[Smirker]

I have no doubt that if he was fit Okore would currently be first choice.

Definitely would, he is class and is going to become the best centre back in the league.

[paul_e]

Not wanting to open up a wish list type debate but I think that mixing what he bought in with a couple of decent older pros would have done us wonders this year. Gareth Barry was a missed opportunity. There is other value out there as well - Lescott, Essien, Parker, Berbatov or Benayoun could have all done a job for us. And before people get on saying these players are not good enough, any of them could have played a bit part role in the first team but all would offer experience to a young squad/team. There is a reason no other team has tried to do this with purely young and inexperienced players - it doesnt work....A mix of youth and experience is vital and players of this ilk would have given some of our new lads a bit more time to get up to speed and ease the transition

Think through the logic of the bold bit, no one has tried it but it doesn't work, that's a pretty big leap you're making there.  No one has tried it because it's a high risk strategy and most managers are too concerned with the short-term to try it.  Now to counter myself there does need to be a degree of short-term thinking to the strategy and it's fair to argue that Lambert has been lax in that regard.  However, as I said last season, I think he wanted Ireland, Nzog, Bent, Given, Gabby and Dunne to provide that experienced core and, Gabby aside, They let him down.  This season he decided that the experience of last year was enough and I think he'd have been correct if we hadn't had such a mess of injuries at times.

How many times, for example, has the same 11 started back to back?  I think cardiff and west brom is the only time, that can't help, particularly with 7 new players coming in over the summer.

Lambert does need to do some short-term work on fixing our ball retention but I don't think, it's as simple as, there are too many kids, or the players aren't good enough, I think our squad has enough quality to be a top half team but we need to find a catalyst to build our attacking play around, that might be a new signing or someone rediscovering their best form or a tactical shift but the key blocks to being a good side are all there for me.

[Chris Smith]

I can not think of a single player who would have helped us from the old regime. When asked to do so from Houlier's and McLeish's reign they all let us down badly.  Dunne was injured for a large part anyway and then I doubt he was good enough, Collins was not good enough anyway and the Legend of Carlos is he was a better player when he did not play. Warnock seems to suffer the same problems with confidence as most of our young payers too. Only Bent (who has not been the same since injury seems) spring to mind as a character who might have helped.

Who else should Lambert have kept? Hutton? Beye? Heskey?

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

Think about how much each costs per week then you will have answered your own question.

Having spent three years trying to clear the decks of players we struggle to shift it would be absolute madness to do the same thing all over again.

[KevinGage]

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

Can I have a limb amputated instead?

[pauliewalnuts]

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.

[LeeB]

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.

I'd rather have Emile from Robocop, after he's fell into the acid vat.

[supertom]

We might joke about Heskey too, but would you rather have Emile or Jordan Bowery on the bench?

I'd rather have Emile Sandé on the bench than Emile Heskey.

I'd rather have Emile from Robocop, after he's fell into the acid vat.

But still...Heskey over Bowery though. Lol.