Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Steve R on July 14, 2012, 11:23:52 AM
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taken from an article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/13/racism-football-premier-league-campbell)
But, [Lord] Ouseley says, those people who suggest that the work of Kick It Out is complete, and that it's now time to focus primarily on homophobia and sexism, are seriously deluded. He mentions the Equality Standard, initially introduced for local government and now applied to English football clubs. "There are three levels: the preliminary level is where people can say, we've got an equal opportunities policy, we take action against racism, we have black players. So they can develop a basic level of commitment to tackling discrimination. The next level, you've got to do a lot more than tick the boxes. And then, to get to the advanced level, you've got to show a corporate understanding of what racism and exclusion is all about, and it has to be understood and carried through by the management team. There are only two clubs that have hit advanced level: Arsenal and Aston Villa."
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I saw that over my midday coffee and I was very pleased.
As has been commented a few times on this site, Villa can generally be trusted to do the right thing.
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"And while Aston Villa and Arsenal stand in the 'advanced' level, Birmingham City remain in the 'Dark Ages' level. Regardless of this, they still remain many leagues ahead of Liverpool."
In all seriousness though, well done to the club, this is a tremendous and important achievement. Proud to be a Villain.
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As someone who has been involved in challenging racism, homophobia and misogyny in football at Villa Park since the late-70's (initially as a member of FAN and then as an individual) this is great news.
Overtly racist comment and abuse has all but died out as a general issue but the glee with which the, admittedly rare, opportunity to sing gay "accusations" is taken is shameful (normally at individual opposition players).
Sitting in the Trinity now I hardly hear anyone bad-mouthing anyway ;-)
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It's great to see the club have reached the 'advanced' level. However at the same time I'm sad that so much of the game is still so far behind.
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This is good to hear. I think all three clubs around Birmingham are very good both from the management action and fans attitude side.
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Just read this. Good to see we are doing the right thing as usual.
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So proud. Really, really well done to everyone at Villa who has worked toward this.
Enjoy your recognition, you deserve it.
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Yet another in a long line of reasons that i'm proud to be a Villan.
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taken from an article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/13/racism-football-premier-league-campbell)
"...you've got to show a corporate understanding of what racism and exclusion is all about, and it has to be understood and carried through by the management team."
This just makes me think: So what?
How easy it to never do anything racist, and to never tolerate racism? What the hell is going on at the other clubs to make them fail?
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taken from an article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/13/racism-football-premier-league-campbell)
"...you've got to show a corporate understanding of what racism and exclusion is all about, and it has to be understood and carried through by the management team."
This just makes me think: So what?
How easy it to never do anything racist, and to never tolerate racism? What the hell is going on at the other clubs to make them fail?
I think the key word is 'exclusion'. Didn't we trail a non-alcoholic beverage area? It's all about going the extra step rather than just saying certain ethnic groups are not interested in going to football matches, instead creating an environment whereby they don't feel excluded and feel welcome by the club. I think the club have been very pro-active and I hope they continue to be.
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As someone who has been involved in challenging racism, homophobia and misogyny in football at Villa Park since the late-70's (initially as a member of FAN and then as an individual) this is great news.
Overtly racist comment and abuse has all but died out as a general issue but the glee with which the, admittedly rare, opportunity to sing gay "accusations" is taken is shameful (normally at individual opposition players).
Sitting in the Trinity now I hardly hear anyone bad-mouthing anyway ;-)
Over the last few years, I've also noticed a lot more Asian fans at the games. Still nothing like as many as there should be, but it is good to see things slowly starting to change.
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Seconded paulie. Let's hope it continues.
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taken from an article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/13/racism-football-premier-league-campbell)
"...you've got to show a corporate understanding of what racism and exclusion is all about, and it has to be understood and carried through by the management team."
This just makes me think: So what?
How easy it to never do anything racist, and to never tolerate racism? What the hell is going on at the other clubs to make them fail?
It's very easy to not do anything racist but it's another thing entirely to actively try to encourage whole swaths of society that have previously felt excluded from football because they feel that they might be threatened or unwelcome.
Anything our club can and has done in this respect is great and it's good to see that we are being recognised.
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taken from an article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jul/13/racism-football-premier-league-campbell)
"...you've got to show a corporate understanding of what racism and exclusion is all about, and it has to be understood and carried through by the management team."
This just makes me think: So what?
How easy it to never do anything racist, and to never tolerate racism? What the hell is going on at the other clubs to make them fail?
It's very easy to not do anything racist but it's another thing entirely to actively try to encourage whole swaths of society that have previously felt excluded from football because they feel that they might be threatened or unwelcome.
Anything our club can and has done in this respect is great and it's good to see that we are being recognised.
As opposed to say holding an international tournament in two countries with a history of racist behaviour by football fans, thus making sure racism is seen to be condoned or at least not taken seriously and non white supporters don't feel safe to attend. that really helps remove the white stereotype of a football supporter. When you look at the proportion of black British players and compare that to the proportion of black people in the crowd, even at an 'advanced' club like Villa, it is obvious things are a long way off being right.
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Clearly you are not going to have the same ratio of non white fans as there are non white players in a team. Two things are not linked. Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection. Black people will not simply rush to a football match just to see black players. That would be in it self racist. Having black players at a club is an encouragement nothing more. People have the same reason all over for not being able to watch a football game. Mainly economics. If say we say that generally 10% of the people in Birmingham are non white (this in itself is a huge generalisation for many reasons) than I would be quite delighted with a similar attendance at VP. It's ok at the moment but not good enough however non whites do need to make a bigger effort as do all Brummies. Attendance at VP (disregarding last season) is shameful because with a city of our size we should fill out a 42k ground every other week.
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Yet another reason to be proud of our wonderful club
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Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection.
I'm sorry but you have to call it when you see it - zero tolerance and all that. That remark is racist.
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Yes probably is based on generalisation.
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Hmmm...normally I'm like a human edition of Searchlight when it comes to racism, but I'm not sure about the athlete thing. Are black people generally better at sprint events? I have no problem with people saying white people make the best swimmers.
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Hmmm...normally I'm like a human edition of Searchlight when it comes to racism, but I'm not sure about the athlete thing. Are black people generally better at sprint events? I have no problem with people saying white people make the best swimmers.
Black athletes possess something called 'twitch fibres', which are thought to improve speed and agility. I've probably explained that all wrong but a lot of research has been done on it and you can google it for more information.
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There was an excellent documentary on TV about 5 years ago featuring Colin Jackson the sprinter. The basic synopsis was trying to determine whether nature or nurture caused him to be a great sprinter. If I remember correctly it was determined that people of Afro-Caribbean origin like Colin, have genetically inherited more fast twitch muscle fibres giving them a distinct advantage in explosive athletic events.
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Did'nt Michael Johnson do a programme about this last week, and investigate the fact that in the last Olympic 100M Final ALL of the competitors originated from West Africa.He linked it with slavery and social engineering.
Also 90% of the best long distance runners originate from East Africa, and the best weight lifters come from Central Europe, Northern Turkey etc, whys that then?
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I'm white and my missus is black. Knowing my luck my kids have got her race's swimming ability and my race's lack of twitch fibres. But at least they've got the football team we both support so it's not all doom and gloom.
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Did'nt Michael Johnson do a programme about this last week, and investigate the fact that in the last Olympic 100M Final ALL of the competitors originated from West Africa.He linked it with slavery and social engineering.
Also 90% of the best long distance runners originate from East Africa, and the best weight lifters come from Central Europe, Northern Turkey etc, whys that then?
Maybe for the same reasons that the best snooker and darts players come from the UK. Or is it because we have better "slow twitch elbow fibres" ?
I know that sprinting is dominated by people with African American or African Caribbean descent. Why is it that none of the runners in that final came from Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Ghana, Cameroon, Senegal, etc?
Maybe its more to do with the relative cultures of those countries?
Maybe it's because many Caribbean people are often of not just of West African descent but also mixed with Indian, Portuguese, Chinese, Native American?
Maybe it's just because they take athletics seriously, and success leads to further success - like British cycling at the moment.
Did Johnson investigate why all of the competitors came from English speaking countries? Maybe the British Empire is the reason for their greatness? (One came from the bilingual Netherlands Antilles so maybe the Dutch Empire too?)
Sorry - I have fast twitch fibres in my racist bullshit detection muscles this morning.
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Hmmm...normally I'm like a human edition of Searchlight when it comes to racism, but I'm not sure about the athlete thing. Are black people generally better at sprint events? I have no problem with people saying white people make the best swimmers.
Black athletes possess something called 'twitch fibres', which are thought to improve speed and agility. I've probably explained that all wrong but a lot of research has been done on it and you can google it for more information.
The same sort of research that suggested white people were better swimmers because of less-heavy bone density when compared to black people. The theory, as it turned out, was bollocks. Its to do with opportunities, money, and role-models.
In Jamaica, for instance, there's a largely poor population and it costs nothing to go to a nearby track and sprint. If you're good and you're spotted then funding comes. Of course you'll have to dig deep yourself but when you have role-models such as Usain Bolt, Asafa Powell, Maurice Greene, Michael Johnson, Carl lewis (I know the last 3 are Americans but US culture is so dominant in Jamaica that basketball and athletic 'stars' are more popular then their own cricketers for example).
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Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection.
I'm sorry but you have to call it when you see it - zero tolerance and all that. That remark is racist.
Have you any evidence that that's racist? Whether their success in sports like sprinting is down to genetics or training doesn't matter. In any case, if you look at the facts, in certain events black people are statistically better than white people. And so what? Is it racist to say that Brazilians or more recently Spanish footballers are better than their North European counterparts? Different people from around the world have different characteristics, and that's surely a good thing. Vive la difference and all that. As long as nobody is discriminated against for being different, then what's the problem. If black athletes overcome the many obstacles in their way to success, good on em.
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An interesting article on why Kenyan athletes dominate distance running (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/)
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Sorry - I have fast twitch fibres in my racist bullshit detection muscles this morning.
Don't see anything racist in the above discussion. I see people forwarding theories as to why the best sprinters are nearly all black.
It could all be down to circumstances, but if so why are the best British sprinters also nearly all black? Surely black and white people in this country have pretty much equal access to facilities and training yet I don't see many white British athletes competing at the highest levels below 400 metres.
It is therefore possible to assume that genetics must have something to do with it.
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With regards to black sprinters is it because they've got the best drugs?
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Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.
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It wasn't that long ago that it was considered a truism that black players couldn't do the shift work in midfield.
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Have you any evidence that that's racist?
Looking at the dictionary,
racism, noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement
That's all the evidence I need.
It's disturbingly easy to find a simple thing that black people participate in more than white people, or vice versa, and then claim it must be because of our genetic differences.
Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people? Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists.
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In that link about Kenyan long distance runners, they took Kenyan people (from an area that had produced several winning runners) with no training, trained them up and in a few months they were easily beating times set by professional Western runners. The Mbutu tribe are on average, about five foot tall, so you wouldn't expect them to provide many basketball players. So, because thy are not very tall because of genetic reasons, is it racist to say that they won't be good at sports where height is an advantage?
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Have you any evidence that that's racist?
Looking at the dictionary,
racism, noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement
That's all the evidence I need.
I notice you left this bit out of the quote:
"usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."
Which does rather render your "evidence" nothing of the sort. Human beings are all different, and to say that any sporting advantage or disadvantage as a result of those difference is racist is clearly nonsense.
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Have you any evidence that that's racist?
Looking at the dictionary,
racism, noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement
That's all the evidence I need.
I notice you left this bit out of the quote:
"usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."
Which does rather render your "evidence" nothing of the sort. Human beings are all different, and to say that any sporting advantage or disadvantage as a result of those difference is racist is clearly nonsense.
So if I say something general like, "white people are cleverer than non-whites", that's not racist?
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Are you joking? Of course it is.
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Are you joking? Of course it is.
Of course it is. And if I say about a football team "Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection" then that's racist too, right?
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Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people? Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists.
http://worldcrunch.com/meet-yohann-g-ne-first-black-cyclist-ever-tour-de-france/3430
Meet Yohann Gène, The First Black Cyclist Ever In The Tour De France
Hailing from Guadeloupe, the 30-year-old Yohann Gène’s presence in the Tour de France is a watershed, challenging a competitive cycling world described as “homogeneous” and even prone to racism.
Yohann Gène smiles. At 30, the Guadeloupian member of the Europcar team is the first black cyclist to take part in the Tour de France. A professional racer since 2005, Gène is described by other cyclists as a model teammate and vital to support the leaders.
Gène was 17 when he first moved to Europe, and soon after discovered the passion for the green open spaces where his bike could bring him. “When I ride, I see all kinds of landscapes. I feel free.” As a kid, he followed the Tour de France on television, but strangely imagined himself in another, far less well-known race. “I always dreamed of the Paris-Roubaix- because of its audience and its warrior-like competitors who always risk falling.” And all that in the rough northern weather.
Having arrived with a friend, Rony Martias, the pair entered a special high school course for athletically-gifted pupils. Jean-René Bernaudeau, manager of the Europcar Team, remembers Gène’s first steps on the European stage. “I was lucky to take both Yohann and Rony – I know the West Indies pretty well. Cycling is very much alive there. It’s the only French department where cycling is more popular than soccer, The Tour de Guadeloupe is the event of the year.”
Even though cycling has become increasingly globalized, Yohann Gène’s presence is remarkable nevertheless. “We have been subject to racism,” says his manager. “I had to deal with a few problems and contact sponsors of two foreign teams about it. After the doping incidents, I couldn’t let racism be part of cycling.”
Forerunner, Jean-René Bernaudeau would have liked to hire two Eritreans this year, but they didn’t obtain their visas. “In the West Indies, cycling is a real culture. We only have to repeat what we did with Yohann Gène. In Africa, you need three years to transform someone’s talent into a good cyclist and then help him enter the professional world. Right now there is an Ethiopian, Tsgabu Grmay, who could win the climb of the Alpes d’Huez. The cycling culture needs to open up. It’s a small world, with a homogenous culture.” That may be about to change.
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Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people? Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists.
http://worldcrunch.com/meet-yohann-g-ne-first-black-cyclist-ever-tour-de-france/3430
Meet Yohann Gène, The First Black Cyclist Ever In The Tour De France
Hailing from Guadeloupe, the 30-year-old Yohann Gène’s presence in the Tour de France is a watershed, challenging a competitive cycling world described as “homogeneous” and even prone to racism.
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One. And he's 138th overall.
White cyclists are better athletes and therefore dominate selection
Racist or not? You choose...
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Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.
Probably not avoiding a sweeping generalisation too well myself but also attempting to be balanced, I would say that it is quite evident that in certain areas Black people have better general strength & athleticism this also doesn't always mean they make better footballers (although it helps), as football isn't all about strength & athleticism. There are positions that require a different skill set such as a typical number 10 or midfield play maker, which you don't get too many black people, Like wise in the NFL and quarter backs. I realise what I'm trying to say sounds bad, it isn't always the case and is a bit of a generalistion but is my opinion and you only need to make the observation.
Where things differ is where people mention cycling and swimming as I think that is more a demographic and cultural thing. It is often though that Black people bones are more dense making them not so good at swimming, i'm on the understanding that if it is the case the bone is more dense it isn't enough to make a difference, I don't know enough about the science of it. I would just say it is more a case of Black people not tending to swim as much, I am just guessing but I think you'd find the percentage of black adults that can't swim is far higher than white people in this country.
As for cycling I think that again it comes down culture, demographics and purely expense. Black people have always suffered with most being on the botttom scale when it comes to wealth whether your talking about a specific country or as countries internationally. Cycling is quite an expensive sport so you need to be able to afford it to start with and black people generally just haven't been able to meaning cycling isn't something that people in black communities have grown up with. With investment in cycling in Kenya for example it could be quite possible that you could find talent to compete with the best in the Tour de France.
Also I'd would say that having black players is an inspiration to the black community to support a club. Looking at Arsenal. I'd say their black support increase dramatically in the early 00's as the their team was nearly all black at one stage. Obviously this wasn't the only factor as they were the best team in the country then and this is going to get more people following in itself.
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Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.
Who knew?
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Is it possible that professional cycling might be better suited to the genetics of white people? Watch the Tour De France this afternoon and count the black cyclists.
http://worldcrunch.com/meet-yohann-g-ne-first-black-cyclist-ever-tour-de-france/3430
Meet Yohann Gène, The First Black Cyclist Ever In The Tour De France
Hailing from Guadeloupe, the 30-year-old Yohann Gène’s presence in the Tour de France is a watershed, challenging a competitive cycling world described as “homogeneous” and even prone to racism.
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One. And he's 138th overall.
White cyclists are better athletes and therefore dominate selection
Racist or not? You choose...
I have no idea. Maybe Cycling is like Golf ?
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Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.
My intention was not to diverte the discussion in this direction. I was simply trying to make a point that we should not expect fans on terraces to be equal to the percentage of black players in the PL. Compared to general population percentages the number of professional footballers is much high and there is probably a reason for that. It is unfortunate that drisaac has decided to label that as "racist".
I expect the crowd mix at VP to represent the general mix of society regardless of colour of our players.
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Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.
Who knew?
Strange. Are they immune from being racists because they are black?
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Interesting read here about some factors on why 70% of African-American children can't swim: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/10/us/cnnheroes-butts-josh-project/index.html
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Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.
My intention was not to diverte the discussion in this direction. I was simply trying to make a point that we should not expect fans on terraces to be equal to the percentage of black players in the PL. Compared to general population percentages the number of professional footballers is much high and there is probably a reason for that. It is unfortunate that drisaac has decided to label that as "racist".
I expect the crowd mix at VP to represent the general mix of society regardless of colour of our players.
The misfortune was all yours, Aftab.
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Are you joking? Of course it is.
Of course it is. And if I say about a football team "Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection" then that's racist too, right?
Nobody said anything like that.
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Are you joking? Of course it is.
Of course it is. And if I say about a football team "Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection" then that's racist too, right?
Nobody said anything like that.
Aftab said exactly that at the top of the second page.
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Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.
It is often though that Black people bones are more dense making them not so good at swimming, i'm on the understanding that if it is the case the bone is more dense it isn't enough to make a difference, I don't know enough about the science of it.
You certainly don't.
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Agreed Dave, although I did raise an eyebrow when aftab related it to football. I see little or no evidence that black people are generally better footballers. Seems to me the best in the world are and have been a healthy mix.
It is often though that Black people bones are more dense making them not so good at swimming, i'm on the understanding that if it is the case the bone is more dense it isn't enough to make a difference, I don't know enough about the science of it.
You certainly don't.
Please enlighten me then!
Rather than dismiss what i've said, what are you trying to say?
Its true that Black people's bones are more dense?
Black people can't swim?
Maybe I wasn't clear but I was dispelling the myth rather than agreeing with it, so not sure what you're criticism is based on. Of what I wrote this wasn't what I was expecting to be picked up on.
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Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.
Who knew?
Strange. Are they immune from being racists because they are black?
I would find it a bit weird if they were, especially concerning comments and conclusions they made about the aptitude of members of their own race ( based on scientific facts) for sport.
But you seem determined to pepper this thread with increasingly desperate attempts to justify your half baked theory, so kudos to you.
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Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.
Who knew?
Strange. Are they immune from being racists because they are black?
I would find it a bit weird if they were, especially concerning comments and conclusions they made about the aptitude of members of their own race ( based on scientific facts) for sport.
But you seem determined to pepper this thread with increasingly desperate attempts to justify your half baked theory, so kudos to you.
The only theory I have put forward in this thread is that Aftab said something racist, that "black players are better athletes" . Do you agree with Aftab?
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Are you joking? Of course it is.
Of course it is. And if I say about a football team "Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection" then that's racist too, right?
Nobody said anything like that.
Aftab said exactly that at the top of the second page.
Yes I did and it was a poor way of articulating the fact that black players succeed in football in a higher percentage than the percentage of black population in the country.
And now I will stop digging.....
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Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.
Who knew?
Strange. Are they immune from being racists because they are black?
I would find it a bit weird if they were, especially concerning comments and conclusions they made about the aptitude of members of their own race ( based on scientific facts) for sport.
But you seem determined to pepper this thread with increasingly desperate attempts to justify your half baked theory, so kudos to you.
The only theory I have put forward in this thread is that Aftab said something racist, that "black players are better athletes" . Do you agree with Aftab?
Personally I think we should all just get along.
aftab has never before struck me as an AC Williams type, or that knob jockey Nazi who crashed and burned in offtopic a while ago. But I will forensically strip everything he posts from now on, and if he says anything that can be taken the wrong way, he'll be up against the wall and shot like that pair. Deal?
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Nobody here is speaking with any malicous intent, drisaac, so please stop being so sensationalist.
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Colin Jackson and Michael Johnson are clearly racist then.
Who knew?
Strange. Are they immune from being racists because they are black?
I would find it a bit weird if they were, especially concerning comments and conclusions they made about the aptitude of members of their own race ( based on scientific facts) for sport.
But you seem determined to pepper this thread with increasingly desperate attempts to justify your half baked theory, so kudos to you.
The only theory I have put forward in this thread is that Aftab said something racist, that "black players are better athletes" . Do you agree with Aftab?
Personally I think we should all just get along.
aftab has never before struck me as an AC Williams type, or that knob jockey Nazi who crashed and burned in offtopic a while ago. But I will forensically strip everything he posts from now on, and if he says anything that can be taken the wrong way, he'll be up against the wall and shot like that pair. Deal?
Chipsticks - lets leave it there like the man said. ok?
Kevin & Aftab - Deal. I don't want to be a party to the kind of atrocities that go on in offtopic <shudders/>
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aftab is definitely not an acwilliams.
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Are you joking? Of course it is.
Of course it is. And if I say about a football team "Black players are better athletes and therefore dominate selection" then that's racist too, right?
Nobody said anything like that.
Aftab said exactly that at the top of the second page.
Ah, apologies. I'm not with it today.
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Yes I did and it was a poor way of articulating the fact that black players succeed in football in a higher percentage than the percentage of black population in the country.
And now I will stop digging.....
Looking at it, my post seemed to suggest I thought you were making a more sinister point. I didn't though. Anyway, not getting drawn into this thread, I'm off!
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Anyway... well done Villa for your hard work in this area.
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Is it good that we're all the same? ,or, is it good that we're all different?
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Well this thread went off on an interesting tangent didn't it.
Avoiding the topic of whether genetics (note, genetics, not race, the latter being a made up definition of differences, in fact the term race is probably racist, but if so seeing as the term racist is based on race... I'll stop there) has an effect on sporting performance, this is great to see, the club has done a lot of good work in the area to adapt to the changing community and this is reflected by the fact we've been given this advanced status.
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I'm getting into this one late, but isn't it likely that it's a combination of environment and physical characteristics that results in certain races being dominant in particular sports, rather than it being only one or the other?
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Well this thread went off on an interesting tangent didn't it.
It was as inevitable as the rain...
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I'm getting into this one late, but isn't it likely that it's a combination of environment and physical characteristics that results in certain races being dominant in particular sports, rather than it being only one or the other?
I don't know anything about the biology involved, but surely social background has an enormous effect on the type (class, race etc) of people who rise to the fore in a certain sport.
That's why the few tennis players we produce are so very middle class - you need access to tennis facilities to play the sport in the first place, let alone the supportive parents to subsidise you as you do it through the years.
Whoever it was who mentioned Brazilians being good at football as an indicator that black people are inherently super powered in some way is missing the point about as much as it is possible to do so - Brazil is a real mix of races.
Take three of the best Brazilian players ever - Pele, Zico and Falcao - how on earth can you lump those three in the same racial group?
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Surely the "race" card is a red herring in this case. The top echelon of brazilian footballers are outstanding as so many people play to a high level a game that is accessible to everyone from an early age. Creed or colour means nothing. I bet the average English kid could beat the average brazilian on a Xbox. Nothing to do with race, everything to do with culture and average living standards. I still believe racism is less about "what" is said, and more about "how" it is said, but realise that things are taken out of context and can hurt and offend people when the original point was not made like this
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I don't know anything about the biology involved, but surely social background has an enormous effect on the type (class, race etc) of people who rise to the fore in a certain sport.
As with many things, it's complicated. Simple things like just the popularity of certain sports in different countries plays a part. I can't see any reason why players from the Indian sub continent should be any better at hockey than players in many European countries, or to take it to the extreme, why is Pakistan better at cricket than Norway, if it wasn't for the different levels of popularity of sports in countries with different cultures and histories.
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I'm getting into this one late, but isn't it likely that it's a combination of environment and physical characteristics that results in certain races being dominant in particular sports, rather than it being only one or the other?
Having dodged the bullet last time I'm now going to chip in, of course both are a factor, it's undeniable that, given the same opportunities you won't get the same results. Across all society if you put everyone into the ideal situation to enhance sprinting performance, ensuring all external factors were the same, you wouldn't see everyone able to break 10 seconds for the 100m, to suggest that you would and genetics plays no part is naive, however it's equally as silly to think that genetics provides anything more than a platform upon which to build success.
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There's a programme on BBC3 9pm tonight called "Is Football Racist?" Might be worth a watch.
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I don't know anything about the biology involved, but surely social background has an enormous effect on the type (class, race etc) of people who rise to the fore in a certain sport.
As with many things, it's complicated. Simple things like just the popularity of certain sports in different countries plays a part. I can't see any reason why players from the Indian sub continent should be any better at hockey than players in many European countries, or to take it to the extreme, why is Pakistan better at cricket than Norway, if it wasn't for the different levels of popularity of sports in countries with different cultures and histories.
The more technical a sport gets the less effect genetics has, particularly team sports. That said there are still elements where genetics have to become involved. Cricket is my favourite example. Check the reaction times required by world class batsmen when facing the super-quick seamers. Being able to see the delivery and play a shot, how much is based on visual queues in the run-up, grip, etc which allows them to predict and how much is based on a genetic factors which allow the info to be processed more rapidly than average? The reality is both will play a part, a fully trained cricketer with average genetics will do well, an untrained player with great genetics will clearly have no idea, however if the 2nd guy trains he is likely to reach and surpass the 1st much more rapidly because as he trains it will just come easily to him.
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Surely the "race" card is a red herring in this case. The top echelon of brazilian footballers are outstanding as so many people play to a high level a game that is accessible to everyone from an early age. Creed or colour means nothing. I bet the average English kid could beat the average brazilian on a Xbox. Nothing to do with race, everything to do with culture and average living standards. I still believe racism is less about "what" is said, and more about "how" it is said, but realise that things are taken out of context and can hurt and offend people when the original point was not made like this
Definitely culture plays a massive part, and climate. On the one hand you've got a kid playing on the beach to a samba beat. On the other hand you've got a kid playing in the rain in Wigan. You can already visualise the contrast in styles they will develop.
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Poverty and opportunity has a lot of influence on choosing sports.
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See, Im not confident about the "genetics" part. Nature versus nuture. I deal in genomics, the study of dna in cattle, and while there is a difference between animals of course in their genetics, their ability to demonstrate that is still being investigated. However, if cattle are fed different ways, cared for in different ways etc, that has far far more effect in their performance. Please dont take this that I comparing footballers with cattle, I know for a fact there are far more intelligent Holstein cows walking around than Alan Shearer
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See, Im not confident about the "genetics" part. Nature versus nuture. I deal in genomics, the study of dna in cattle, and while there is a difference between animals of course in their genetics, their ability to demonstrate that is still being investigated. However, if cattle are fed different ways, cared for in different ways etc, that has far far more effect in their performance. Please dont take this that I comparing footballers with cattle, I know for a fact there are far more intelligent Holstein cows walking around than Alan Shearer
As you are a bit of an expert in the field I will obviously bow to your greater knowledge...but...this doesn't explain why nearly all the best British sprinters are black. All kids in this country can go to a track and run, yet we haven't produced a top-class white sprinter since probably Alan Wells.
Maybe it's just down to role-models, black kids all want to be Usain Bolt or something, but I still think there must be some genetics in play here.
As I say, I'm no expert so shoot me down if I'm talking rubbish.
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See, Im not confident about the "genetics" part. Nature versus nuture. I deal in genomics, the study of dna in cattle, and while there is a difference between animals of course in their genetics, their ability to demonstrate that is still being investigated. However, if cattle are fed different ways, cared for in different ways etc, that has far far more effect in their performance. Please dont take this that I comparing footballers with cattle, I know for a fact there are far more intelligent Holstein cows walking around than Alan Shearer
As you are a bit of an expert in the field I will obviously bow to your greater knowledge...but...this doesn't explain why nearly all the best British sprinters are black. All kids in this country can go to a track and run, yet we haven't produced a top-class white sprinter since probably Alan Wells.
Maybe it's just down to role-models, black kids all want to be Usain Bolt or something, but I still think there must be some genetics in play here.
As I say, I'm no expert so shoot me down if I'm talking rubbish.
Whilst we don't know enough to be able to say specifically why genetics play a part I refuse to accept that anyone genuinely thinks that it has absolutely no part to play in someone's physical abilities.
EDIT - Case in point being Michael Phelps, clearly a great swimmer and has worked hard and had all the right opportunities, but his body shape and genetic make-up clearly have enabled him to be as good as he is.
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Wasnt it Tony McAndrew who said that when they take on youth players, they spend less time looking at ability, and more looking at attitude, he said they could train the skill into the players if the mindset was right. Their success rate puts a good light on this theory. I dont want to disagree about the genetic element, I do however think it is far far less important than the nuturing and development of "skills". The genetic element though would distinguish between certain attributes, and would not take into account race or culture. Only by testing thousands and thousands of people would you start to understand the traits, and as far as I know, there is no current "evaluation" of skill of people apart from the top 0.001% that happen to compete in sports or things like GCSE's, so that would give you horribly skewed and biased results "Genetically testing humans".....sounds far to much like a Daily Mail headline for me to go anywhere near
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Wasnt it Tony McAndrew who said that when they take on youth players, they spend less time looking at ability, and more looking at attitude, he said they could train the skill into the players if the mindset was right. Their success rate puts a good light on this theory. I dont want to disagree about the genetic element, I do however think it is far far less important than the nuturing and development of "skills". The genetic element though would distinguish between certain attributes, and would not take into account race or culture. Only by testing thousands and thousands of people would you start to understand the traits, and as far as I know, there is no current "evaluation" of skill of people apart from the top 0.001% that happen to compete in sports or things like GCSE's, so that would give you horribly skewed and biased results "Genetically testing humans".....sounds far to much like a Daily Mail headline for me to go anywhere near
The bold bit is the key for me, there's currently no evidence to suggest that producing fast twitch muscle fibre in the most efficient way is related to the level pigment in the skin, for example.
The fundamental issue is that the only way to truly resolve this would be to artifically engineer the situation, take 2 eggs from a woman and fertilise them with the same sperm, then, before anything occurs, alter the genetics of one to create a 'super' version. Then take them both through to birth, childhood, etc with all the same experiences and influences, and measure performance at every stage. Given this is never going to happen due to the fact that a, it's currently impossible and b it's so unethical it's scary, we'll probably never get an exact picture of the effect it has, however it's still safe to assume that it does have an effect, the discussion is always going to centre on whether the effect is large enough to matter.
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I'm sure I read an article about an NFL team, cant mind which one, who tended to focus their talent spotting on players of West African descent for certain positions as they were genetically more likely to be faster and stronger at early ages. Could have been bollocks of course.
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See, Im not confident about the "genetics" part. Nature versus nuture. I deal in genomics, the study of dna in cattle, and while there is a difference between animals of course in their genetics, their ability to demonstrate that is still being investigated. However, if cattle are fed different ways, cared for in different ways etc, that has far far more effect in their performance. Please dont take this that I comparing footballers with cattle, I know for a fact there are far more intelligent Holstein cows walking around than Alan Shearer
As you are a bit of an expert in the field I will obviously bow to your greater knowledge...but...this doesn't explain why nearly all the best British sprinters are black. All kids in this country can go to a track and run, yet we haven't produced a top-class white sprinter since probably Alan Wells.
Maybe it's just down to role-models, black kids all want to be Usain Bolt or something, but I still think there must be some genetics in play here.
As I say, I'm no expert so shoot me down if I'm talking rubbish.
Whilst we don't know enough to be able to say specifically why genetics play a part I refuse to accept that anyone genuinely thinks that it has absolutely no part to play in someone's physical abilities.
EDIT - Case in point being Michael Phelps, clearly a great swimmer and has worked hard and had all the right opportunities, but his body shape and genetic make-up clearly have enabled him to be as good as he is.
And when he does the backstroke his nose looks like a Great White Shark fin!!
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iI think you are a bit over-sensitive drisaac, lets not descend into the norm of thats racist/no i'm not kind of nonsense that these debates normally fall into, ruining a very interesting debate on genetics.
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iI think you are a bit over-sensitive drisaac, lets not descend into the norm of thats racist/no i'm not kind of nonsense that these debates normally fall into, ruining a very interesting debate on genetics.
Can't help it, barry, it's me genes. Anyway I stopped "ruining it" about this time yesterday, so please feel free to contribute.
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Well, I feel I've learned something on this thread, even if it is just that Villa are doing a good job and that what I posted earlier was probably a load of old bollocks.
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This made me giggle:
John Terry has written a letter of apology to Anton Ferdinand:
Good golly Anton,sorry about all this monkey business,it's only a little black humour really and it's all gone bananas. What do you say we call a spade a spade and forget this whole dark episode between us ?
Feel free to swing by for a drink sometime.
John T.
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Touche drisaac, touche..........not French genes are they?
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If that made you giggle dan you should check out Jim Davidson. I'm sure his DVDs are going pretty cheap nowadays.
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Touche drisaac, touche..........not French genes are they?
Not likely, he'd have given up arguing much sooner...
Sorry on a racism thread someone mentioned the french, I couldn't stop myself...
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Nah he is just a racist twat. It made me giggle because of how blatantly John Terry got away with racially abusing a fellow proffesional player. He is as guilty as fuck. He knows it and so does Anton Ferdinand.
How can you call somebody a " Black ...." and get away with it ?
I think that somebody should write an Anton Ferdinand reply to the John Terry false letter.That would be really funny.
John Terry in my view is a fucking disgrace and a racist and i was not trying to undermine the severity of racism at all. Did not mean to give that impression if that is what you thought.
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Nah he is just a racist twat. It made me giggle because of how blatantly John Terry got away with racially abusing a fellow proffesional player. He is as guilty as fuck. He knows it and so does Anton Ferdinand.
How can you call somebody a " Black ...." and get away with it ?
I think that somebody should write an Anton Ferdinand reply to the John Terry false letter.That would be really funny.
John Terry in my view is a fucking disgrace and a racist and i was not trying to undermine the severity of racism at all. Did not mean to give that impression if that is what you thought.
Was never going to be punished in court, the burden of proof sits with the prosecution proving without any reasonable doubt that he intended to be racist. That was always going to be close to impossible to do in this case.
However, from the FA the precedence is 8 matches, if he doesn't get that Liverpool and Suarez are going to jump up and down and cry shenanigans, so I'd put money on a ban, probably the same 8matches (but I'd say 4 absolute minimum) it's too high profile after all this for the FA to sweep it under the carpet. On top of that after stripping him of the england armband they look pretty stupid if they then find him not guilty of any wrong-doing (but I think they might take that previous "punishment" into account and reduce the ban, which is still a joke).
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Was'nt Rio's a racist comment?
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I was described as a coconut once and I found that very offensive. In some ways more offensive than being called a paki.
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My ex was once called a Bounty Bar by an Uncle. She was mildly offended, but not so much that she felt the need to respond to it.
He obviously didn't like it here anyway, as he buggered off back to Barbados. But then, who wouldn't, given the opportunity.
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Not sure if Rio's comment is racist or not. Choc ice, Bounty, Uncle Tom and coconut are interchangeable terms questioning one's (for want of a better word) 'credibility' as a black man, inferring that while your skin is black you think, act or see things from a white perspective.
On a sinilar note, my (black) missus says she doesn't like 'wiggers', but I'm not offended because I'm not one, and I don't consider it racist because she's not referring to all white people. Like aftab, she would be deeply offended if someone called her a coconut. I called it her once as a joke when she did or said something 'white' (I think it was her not knowing something about some aspect of black culture that I was on about). She went mad but not because she thought it was racist.
Be interesting to read what others think.
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Was never going to be punished in court, the burden of proof sits with the prosecution proving without any reasonable doubt that he intended to be racist. That was always going to be close to impossible to do in this case.
I don't know. Although you're right about the burden of proof, there was plenty there to convict him. Absent an account he was certain to be convicted. And his account was utterly incredible.
He was very lucky to get away it.
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On a sinilar note, my (black) missus says she doesn't like 'wiggers',
Neither did Alf Ramsey and look where it got us.
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Many years ago, whilst working in the Home Counties, a colleague referred to me as a Northener. I explained that I wasn't a Northerner or a Southerner, but from the Midlands. Doubt he gave a damn about my views. Think outside of the Midlands, it's probably a fairly common perspective.
I've also worked with a Yorkshire woman who believes the South starts in Nottingham. Much as I love Nottingham, can't quite see the good citizens of Windsor, Henley on Thames et al thinking they have much in common with Nottingham.
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you think, act or see things from a white perspective.
And it's an insult, rather than a positive, suggesting you're one of 'them'. Racist I reckon.
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Against which race?
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Against which race?
Certainly white, but probably black as well - there's only one way to be black, putting the concept of a 'black perspective' ahead of any notion of being an individual.
I'm not saying it's the worst insult in the world, but I do think it involves a mindset that should be challenged.
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you think, act or see things from a white perspective.
And it's an insult, rather than a positive, suggesting you're one of 'them'. Racist I reckon.
When some one calls me a coconut they are completely dismissing my out look on life and my principles by simply categorising my behaviour as "white" and by doing that they are also being deeply racist against white people.
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you think, act or see things from a white perspective.
And it's an insult, rather than a positive, suggesting you're one of 'them'. Racist I reckon.
When some one calls me a coconut they are completely dismissing my out look on life and my principles by simply categorising my behaviour as "white" and by doing that they are also being deeply racist against white people.
And despite being a unique individual, you have to be true to some stereotype, or else you're a fake. Talk about pigeonholing.
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Hmmm...don't see it myself. I'm certainly not offended by it.
There's a black bloke at our place who lets people call him 'my n****r', and does a Tarzan call across the factory.
The other day there was a bit of a fire and he came up to the assembly point pointing at his skin and saying 'look, I'm burnt already'.
The other black people hate the way he takes the piss out of himself and makes his colour into a joke for white people to laugh at.
Some of them call him a bounty. Why should I be offended by that, or consider it racist towards me? I agree with them.
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Some of them call him a bounty. Why should I be offended by that, or consider it racist towards me?
Because those laughing at him don't represent white people, anymore than he represents black.
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I was about to write something to contribute to the debate, then I noticed Percy's apostrophe crime in his last post, and, quite frankly, it has thrown me off kilter so much. I've gone to pieces, I feel let down.
i think I'll go to bed instead.
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I was about to write something to contribute to the debate, then I noticed Percy's apostrophe crime in his last post, and, quite frankly, it has thrown me off kilter so much. I've gone to pieces, I feel let down.
i think I'll go to bed instead.
Sorry paulie. I've fixed it now. Thanks to you and Hopadop for not quoting me fully and leaving it there forever.
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The other day there was a bit of a fire and he came up to the assembly point pointing at his skin and saying 'look, I'm burnt already'.
The other black people hate the way he takes the piss out of himself and makes his colour into a joke for white people to laugh at.
Without knowing the bloke at all, that sounds like a self esteem issue, and he's trying to fit in. I'd be embarrassed for him saying/doing that stuff. I can see why other black people would be pissed off with him doing that as well.
Some of them call him a bounty. Why should I be offended by that, or consider it racist towards me? I agree with them.
Well if you don't consider it racist then that's ok, but by the same token I don't think I want anyone suggesting that just because I'm white I make desperate jokes in an attempt to fit in somewhere. I don't give a fuck whether people like me or not in the main. They usually do btw, because I'm ace.
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I used to go to school with a Pakistani lad who used to joke that his family had swam here disguised as an oil-slick. No-one really batted an eyelid in the early 70's but I met up with him the last time we visited Blighty and he's still making similar 'jokes' now. I asked him why he said stuff like that and he was lost for words. We came to the conclusion that he was so frightened of the violence and abuse he and his friends and family were facing at the time that it just became a habit and he wasn't really aware he was doing it. Shit situation
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I used to go to school with a Pakistani lad who used to joke that his family had swam here disguised as an oil-slick. No-one really batted an eyelid in the early 70's but I met up with him the last time we visited Blighty and he's still making similar 'jokes' now. I asked him why he said stuff like that and he was lost for words. We came to the conclusion that he was so frightened of the violence and abuse he and his friends and family were facing at the time that it just became a habit and he wasn't really aware he was doing it. Shit situation
Unfortunately, these are the type of people that racists and BNP/EDL types see as "fitting in".
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Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle? I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect.
Things of note for me:-
1. If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2. Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3. Jenas came across really well in it.
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Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle? I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect.
Things of note for me:-
1. If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2. Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3. Jenas came across really well in it.
I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.
Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.
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Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle? I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect.
Things of note for me:-
1. If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2. Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3. Jenas came across really well in it.
I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.
Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.
To be fair, the way Barnes put it was that white managers were given "more time to fail". There was also a very valid question asked as to why Barnes didn't get another management job for 8 years after his first one. That one is a lot more difficult to explain away, as the game is full of seemingly rubbish managers getting 3rd, 4th or 5th chances at clubs.
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The thing about black managers to me is that so few retired black players seem to want to go into management. For every Barnes and Ince there are dozens like Collymore, Wright, Campbell, Dublin, Taylor, etc.
Is it a case of them going for jobs and getting rejected or is there a large apathy from a generation of black players towards management?
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Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle? I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect.
Things of note for me:-
1. If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2. Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3. Jenas came across really well in it.
I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.
Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.
To be fair, the way Barnes put it was that white managers were given "more time to fail". There was also a very valid question asked as to why Barnes didn't get another management job for 8 years after his first one. That one is a lot more difficult to explain away, as the game is full of seemingly rubbish managers getting 3rd, 4th or 5th chances at clubs.
Thanks. The bit that I saw did seem a little bit too simplistic. That makes more sense.
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Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle? I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect.
Things of note for me:-
1. If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2. Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3. Jenas came across really well in it.
I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.
Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.
Football has an inherent belief that good players will go on to be good managers (this is particularly true if they were captain during their playing time). It's the prime reason why there are so many incompetent managers being paid a fortune to make a complete hash of things. Would Steve Bruce have had the jobs he's had if he hadn't played for united, for example?
It's ridiculous but it will never change because it suits too many people for their to be a churn of poor managers.
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Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle? I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect.
Things of note for me:-
1. If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2. Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3. Jenas came across really well in it.
I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.
Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.
Football has an inherent belief that good players will go on to be good managers (this is particularly true if they were captain during their playing time). It's the prime reason why there are so many incompetent managers being paid a fortune to make a complete hash of things. Would Steve Bruce have had the jobs he's had if he hadn't played for united, for example?
It's ridiculous but it will never change because it suits too many people for their to be a churn of poor managers.
There seems to be an endless conveyor belt of mediocre British managers getting decent jobs without ever really showing anything special in their managerial careers - just bog standard managers whose coaching probably comes straight out of a manual, or from the coaching they received twenty years ago.
There are also too many former top level players who dabble in management, starting with a job that is too big for them - Southgate at Boro, Barnes at Celtic, Pearce at Man City, Shearer at Newcastle, there are plenty of them - then it goes wrong, and they're effectively marked as damaged goods for the foreseeable future.
I understand that there are examples of players who went straight into management at a high level and did well, too, but how many of these "tainted" managers might have turned out to be good ones had they not started somewhere more appropriate for a first-time boss?
Lambert and O'Neill are two managers who did it the right way - they were both very accomplished players, but realised they needed to start their managerial careers at smaller clubs, with lesser expectations, and they're better managers with better careers as a result of it.
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Barnes failed as a manager because he was rubbish just as Bobby Charlton was when he had a go at it. Race is not a barrier or help when you have been placed in a job.
Below is an opinion only:
The problem is with opportunity. I think there is a mindset with club owners at the moment that denies the opportunity to ex black players. This is similar to lack of opportunity for Asian players. They are just not seen a good footballers in many peoples minds. However on the other hand Asian cricket players benefit from the same attitude in a positive way. The scouts go in with the mindset that thay have the pedigree to be good cricketers.
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The thing about black managers to me is that so few retired black players seem to want to go into management. For every Barnes and Ince there are dozens like Collymore, Wright, Campbell, Dublin, Taylor, etc.
Is it a case of them going for jobs and getting rejected or is there a large apathy from a generation of black players towards management?
I don't think football is the only sport where this is an issue. Having lived in America for a few years, I know it certainly used to be a similar case in basketball and American football. I know they have attempted to tackle the issue in American football and more African American coaches are being given an opportunity to coach NFL teams.
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I don't think this will remain the case. Viv Anderson was the first black player capped by England as recently as 1978 and at the time there were very few black players at the top level. I remember there being a big article in the paper when Big Ron named a Villa side which only had Bosnich as the only white player.Don't think that would even be noticed these days. With the number of top black players these days i honestly believe in 10 years there will be a larger proportion of black managers.
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I was about to write something to contribute to the debate, then I noticed Percy's apostrophe crime in his last post, and, quite frankly, it has thrown me off kilter so much. I've gone to pieces, I feel let down.
i think I'll go to bed instead.
Sorry paulie. I've fixed it now. Thanks to you and Hopadop for not quoting me fully and leaving it there forever.
Don't mention it. I'm so inclusive I embrace you and your strange punctuation ways.
I didn't notice it
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But if you go 10 years are there really any more black now then then? And if not why aren't that generation reflected in today's managers?
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How many English managers are there in the Premier League? 5 or 6? Is that not unrepresentative in the same way that there aren't many black managers?
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If you open it out to British, then there's quite a few!
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I don't think this will remain the case. Viv Anderson was the first black player capped by England as recently as 1978 and at the time there were very few black players at the top level. I remember there being a big article in the paper when Big Ron named a Villa side which only had Bosnich as the only white player.Don't think that would even be noticed these days. With the number of top black players these days i honestly believe in 10 years there will be a larger proportion of black managers.
I disagree. The money in the game now is such that at the end of their careers nearly all players of today (black or white) will not have the motivation to want to become top managers with all the stresses and strains associated with the job. Its not like they have to become failed pub landords anymore is it - so why take on a job with so much stress unless you are fully intending on being a top manager
Lets face it young managers are in shortfall as it is nowadays
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But if you go 10 years are there really any more black now then then? And if not why aren't that generation reflected in today's managers?
Managers tend to be aged 40+ so yes i think there are going to be more black managers in 10yrs time.As i said before it was a big deal when Big Ron fielded a starting eleven that contained ten black players and that was less that twenty years ago. Also with the boom in players wages added to the extra media positions there are less of the top players striving to make their way as a manager. When the Prem kicked off 20yrs ago i think i'm correct in saying that all 22 clubs had a British manager? How many are there now? Football has changed massively as has society.With more and more black players playing then it follows that there'll be more retired black players of which a proportion will want to get into coaching/management. Black players have had managerial roles and will continue to do so. If they are successful then they'll remain in a job/move on to something better (Hughton) if not they'll be out of work (Barnes).No different to a white manager in my opinion.
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I don't think this will remain the case. Viv Anderson was the first black player capped by England as recently as 1978 and at the time there were very few black players at the top level. I remember there being a big article in the paper when Big Ron named a Villa side which only had Bosnich as the only white player.Don't think that would even be noticed these days. With the number of top black players these days i honestly believe in 10 years there will be a larger proportion of black managers.
I disagree. The money in the game now is such that at the end of their careers nearly all players of today (black or white) will not have the motivation to want to become top managers with all the stresses and strains associated with the job. Its not like they have to become failed pub landords anymore is it - so why take on a job with so much stress unless you are fully intending on being a top manager
Lets face it young managers are in shortfall as it is nowadays
I agree with the point regarding players wages but logically if there are X amount more black players playing in the last twenty years then there'll be X amount more who will want to get into management.
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I've just looked it up. Viv Anderson was the 936th player to be capped by England. Since then there have been 67 further black players capped by England with Oxlade Chamberlain being the 1181st. Of those players there have been six who have been a football league manager (to my knowledge) Anderson,Barnes,Curle,Powell,Palmer and Ince. Proportionally i don't think that's too far off as there are still a lot of those 67 either still playing or only recently retired.
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The most black players I can recall us fielding was 8 at Everton.
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The most black players I can recall us fielding was 8 at Everton.
If you are referring to our match in October 1991, I make it 7. Unless one of Sealey, Kubicki, Teale and Richardson was hiding something? They are all about the same skin colour as Anton Ferdinand, so you never know...
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I have always found the 'Bounty Bar' type insults pretty inclusively racist. I work with kids / young adults and spend a lot of trying to break down the idea that there are 'Black' ways of behaving, and 'White' ways of behaving. It doesn't do anyone any favours.
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I have always found the 'Bounty Bar' type insults pretty inclusively racist. I work with kids / young adults and spend a lot of trying to break down the idea that there are 'Black' ways of behaving, and 'White' ways of behaving. It doesn't do anyone any favours.
I agree. I think it's extremely racist to be honest, in respect of both black and white people.
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So was Steve Marriott being racist when he sang 'My skin is white, but my soul is black'?
Am I racist because I prefer black women, or is that just a sexual preference, same as somebody going for blondes? It's as much for their characters as anything.
What about overwhelmingly liking black music over white, and not usually being impressed when white artists make 'black' music?
Or is their really no such thing as 'black music' and white music', like behaviour?
Does this mean that white kids who talk like they're 'from yard' and kiss their teeth not 'wiggers'?
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Am I racist because I prefer black women, or is that just a sexual preference, same as somebody going for blondes? It's as much for their characters as anything.
It's certainly not racist. But the implication that black women all have the same character is perilously close to stereotyping.
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Thats the trouble nowadays Percy, everything can be construed as racist, a national characteristic to some people, is a national stereotype to another.
Regarding football, to me it is the ultimate meritocracy.If a "black" Mourinhio existed, then every team would be after him, his colour would have no meaning.Look at Tigana a few years ago, quite a few top teams were looking at him, but he never succeeded so consequently he reached his zenith at Fulham.
Barnes and Ince, like so many white predecessors, failed to improve on early promise.Most Prem teams would love to have the 1st British Asian Superstar, purely for commercial reasons.
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If I implied that black women all have the same character, it's incorrect and I didn't mean to. I was clumsily trying to avoid implying that they all look the same. Topically, a bloke at my wife's work was suspended the other week for a certain incident along those lines, but I won't go into detail as there is an ongoing investigation.
I think people are getting a bit worked up over a bit of prejudice as opposed to out-and-out racism. My missus' take on it is that she's not bothered if somebody doesn't 'like' her because she's black, as long as they're not educating her, interviewing her for a job or policing her etc.
I must say, it's nice to be discussing this kind of thing with people who are not racist.
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Thats the trouble nowadays Percy, everything can be construed as racist, a national characteristic to some people, is a national stereotype to another.
The problem with stereotyping is that it presupposes everyone in a given group is that same. And if that stereotype is a negative one, i.e. all black people are lazy, all Muslims are terrorists, all immigrants are scroungers, then it's just one very small step to prejudice. Or policy, if you happen to be a Conservative cabinet minister.
There you see, I'm doing it myself now.
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'Choc ice' isn't the same as bastard though to me. It just describes something that is chocolate-coloured on the outside and ice-cream coloured on the inside.
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My ex wife overheard somebody she believed to be a friend speaking to her husband on the phone to let him know the friend she was bringing along to a social gathering was "black, but she's a nice girl". The friendship ended there and then.
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According to lots (http://goo.gl/OwQWx) of (http://goo.gl/bw65G) reports (http://goo.gl/x8KPi) there is more genetic diversity between Africans than there is in the rest of the world combined. Europeans, Aboriginal Australians, Eskimos, Chinese, Samoans, Native Americans and Indians are more closely genetically linked to each other than the various peoples of Africa are to each other.
So to ascribe particular attributes to black people is, at best, meaningless. "Black" is what some people tick on a form about race and tells us less about the genetics of the ticker than had they ticked "Not black".
Most people can't tell you for sure about their "race" beyond about 4 or 5 generations back. The only racial bit we're 100% sure about is "Human" (and not even that (http://goo.gl/QpGlz) because non-Africans are 4% Neanderthal.)
I routinely tick "other" on that section of forms that asks about race because I don't care about the meaningless concept of my race, your race, or anyone else's race. I wish everyone would just shut up about it. As I will now.
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According to lots (http://goo.gl/OwQWx) of (http://goo.gl/bw65G) reports (http://goo.gl/x8KPi) there is more genetic diversity between Africans than there is in the rest of the world combined. Europeans, Aboriginal Australians, Eskimos, Chinese, Samoans, Native Americans and Indians are more closely genetically linked to each other than the various peoples of Africa are to each other.
So to ascribe particular attributes to black people is, at best, meaningless. "Black" is what some people tick on a form about race and tells us less about the genetics of the ticker than had they ticked "Not black".
Most people can't tell you for sure about their "race" beyond about 4 or 5 generations back. The only racial bit we're 100% sure about is "Human" (and not even that (http://goo.gl/QpGlz) because non-Africans are 4% Neanderthal.)
I routinely tick "other" on that section of forms that asks about race because I don't care about the meaningless concept of my race, your race, or anyone else's race. I wish everyone would just shut up about it. As I will now.
Educational stuff, and very interesting.
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'Choc ice' isn't the same as bastard though to me. It just describes something that is chocolate-coloured on the outside and ice-cream coloured on the inside.
I'm aware of the meaning, but I still think it's offensive.
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So was Steve Marriott being racist when he sang 'My skin is white, but my soul is black'?
Am I racist because I prefer black women, or is that just a sexual preference, same as somebody going for blondes? It's as much for their characters as anything.
What about overwhelmingly liking black music over white, and not usually being impressed when white artists make 'black' music?
Or is their really no such thing as 'black music' and white music', like behaviour?
Does this mean that white kids who talk like they're 'from yard' and kiss their teeth not 'wiggers'?
I don't think anything you've said there is racist, but I do think calling somebody a "choc ice" or similar is. For a start, the negative connotations make a big difference in my opinion. If I said your wife was a beautiful black woman, I dare say (and indeed hope) that you wouldn't find that offensive. If I called one of your mates a "black bastard", then that would be a racist, offensive statement.
Risso's response is very important in regards to the Terry situation. Being offended by something doesn't mean it was said to be offensive. The crux of his defense was that Ferdinand took the piss out of him for shagging another guys missus so he took the piss back by calling him a black c**t, with it intended as banter, not to be demeaning. It's bullshit but how do you prove he's lying?
Anti-racism campaign and laws, etc have got a long way to go, and society in general needs to let go of the concept of black, white, brown, etc being separate races, we're not, all of humanity is a single race, we're all different but we're still one race. Once that becomes clear the whole idea of racism becomes a nonsense and we move instead towards discrimination, which is where the focus should be (for what it's worth I'd be willing to accept the term culturism, as most things classed as racist are actually aimed at someone's culture rather than the genetic differences that 'race' supposedly covers).
To explain just how ridiculous the concept of racism is you simply have to consider, is it racist to call someone with big ears 'dumbo'? If not then why is a difference is skin colour considered more important than a difference in the size of someone's ears? If it's meant to be offensive, and the recipient takes offense, is that somehow ok if about their ears but not it it's about their skin?
I know there are factors which make it more important, but laws and criminal trials aren't the way to absolve those, education and understanding of the absurdity of the idea of people being of a different race because of the level of pigment in their skin, or the slant of their eyes, etc.
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Those factors you mention are massive though aren't they paul?
As far as I know, nobody's been gassed or lynched because they have big ears, and there are no political movements that believe that those overblessed in the lobe department are somehow inferior to the powerful, law-making, law-enforcing majority who could barely get a single stud stud in their tiny lug-'oles.
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That wasn't Terry's defence though Paul e.
His defence was that Ferdinand, for some unknown and unprovoked reason, thought that Terry had called him a black count*. Terrys response was to say " no i didn't call you a black count* whilst having his faced curled up into a venomous snarl.
*I am well aware that this is not what he called him but it's what my spellchecker thinks he said
By definition it's racist if I said black people are better at running than white people, even though i'm white. So technically Percy you may be racist if you have those sorts of preferences, even though they are positive preferences towards another 'race'. As i may be with my fiancee who is mixed race.
All in all though it seems sad that people still get so hung up on such a 19th Century concept as 'race' in these modern times.
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Those factors you mention are massive though aren't they paul?
As far as I know, nobody's been gassed or lynched because they have big ears, and there are no political movements that believe that those overblessed in the lobe department are somehow inferior to the powerful, law-making, law-enforcing majority who could barely get a single stud stud in their tiny lug-'oles.
Yes I agree, but if people genuinely want to make it not an issue those things need to be put behind us, that's my point.
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My ex wife overheard somebody she believed to be a friend speaking to her husband on the phone to let him know the friend she was bringing along to a social gathering was "black, but she's a nice girl". The friendship ended there and then.
Yuor ex wife should have given her a big slap at the same time.
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Those factors you mention are massive though aren't they paul?
As far as I know, nobody's been gassed or lynched because they have big ears, and there are no political movements that believe that those overblessed in the lobe department are somehow inferior to the powerful, law-making, law-enforcing majority who could barely get a single stud stud in their tiny lug-'oles.
Yes I agree, but if people genuinely want to make it not an issue those things need to be put behind us, that's my point.
I don't agree with that. If we forget what went on before, we become complacent about it, and if we do that, then we're on the way to getting that way again.
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'Choc ice' isn't the same as bastard though to me. It just describes something that is chocolate-coloured on the outside and ice-cream coloured on the inside.
I'm aware of the meaning, but I still think it's offensive.
Have to say, I agree with you on that.
It's offensive (in my opinion) because when used - by black people or white - morons see it as lending a legitimacy to racism that will then fuel their own racism.
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My question is does discrimination just stop at race? I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches. I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans. I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales. The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day. It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me. I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable.
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I am Ginger ! the torrent of abuse I have had to face from my own supporters as well as the non Villa supporters prevented me taking my 3 sons and daughter to a football game again .
hate is hate ! Love a Ginger
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The last two forms of publicly tolerated prejudice in Britain, against Brummies and Gingers. By combining both you are going to need a thick skin Sunny, ironically ;)
Hopefully things have improved since you've last been down mate and you can share the ocasional pleasure and frequent disappointment of Villa with the nippers.
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My question is does discrimination just stop at race? I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches. I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans. I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales. The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day. It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me. I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable.
Racism is always a difficult area. There are areas where it's clear that things are racist or aren't, but as shown in this thread there are also things that aren't so cut and dried. For instance, if somebody pokes fun at say, an Australian colleague's accent, maybe saying "g'day" for instance, it'd be unlikely to be seen as offensive. Would anybody do the same to a West Indian or Pakistani colleague though?
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My question is does discrimination just stop at race? I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches. I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans. I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales. The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day. It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me. I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable.
I work for a Welsh company, our office is in Caldicot.
The Welsh are fucking sound in my book.
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My question is does discrimination just stop at race? I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches. I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans. I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales. The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day. It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me. I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable.
Racism is always a difficult area. There are areas where it's clear that things are racist or aren't, but as shown in this thread there are also things that aren't so cut and dried. For instance, if somebody pokes fun at say, an Australian colleague's accent, maybe saying "g'day" for instance, it'd be unlikely to be seen as offensive. Would anybody do the same to a West Indian or Pakistani colleague though?
Agreed. Someone posted earlier about the seemingly acceptable level of abuse handed out to the Welsh, ( they do give it back in all fairness ), the same rules clearly don't apply
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My question is does discrimination just stop at race? I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches. I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans. I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales. The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day. It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me. I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable.
Racism is always a difficult area. There are areas where it's clear that things are racist or aren't, but as shown in this thread there are also things that aren't so cut and dried. For instance, if somebody pokes fun at say, an Australian colleague's accent, maybe saying "g'day" for instance, it'd be unlikely to be seen as offensive. Would anybody do the same to a West Indian or Pakistani colleague though?
That reminds me of when a colleague at work, who comes from Nigeria, said "I'm going to negotiate", but with his accent it did genuinely sound like "I'm going to have a shit".
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My question is does discrimination just stop at race? I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches. I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans. I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales. The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day. It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me. I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable.
Racism is always a difficult area. There are areas where it's clear that things are racist or aren't, but as shown in this thread there are also things that aren't so cut and dried. For instance, if somebody pokes fun at say, an Australian colleague's accent, maybe saying "g'day" for instance, it'd be unlikely to be seen as offensive. Would anybody do the same to a West Indian or Pakistani colleague though?
That's a good point. Many years ago on my first trip to Australia I was told by the MD of a company that if an Aussie hadn't called you a pommie bastard within half an hour of meeting you, it probably means he doesn't like you very much. As you suggest, substituting black for pommie would have a totally different meaning.
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When I worked for PwC, there were people from from an exceedingly wide variety of countries. They had to produce a handbook to establish what they thought were acceptable boundaries, because often it was people coming from overseas who were the most (often hilariously so) "un PC" (to use a horrible phrase). A colleague from Hong Kong once mistook me for somebody else (though why he thought Brad Pitt was an accountant I don't know) and then said "sorry, you all look the same to me". Which was a) probably true, and b) very funny but could have landed him in hot water. The Manx also have an expression for people who have moved here who moan about anything, ie "if you don't like it there's a boat back in the morning". That was said to a Jamaican lad once, which led to a worried look when the person realised what they had said.
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I could murder a choc ice
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I could murder a choc ice
Does that qualify as a hate crime?
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Is racism in football more or less prevalent than in society as a whole? What I am getting it is can you tackle the issue at one level without addressing the bigger picture?
Since I started attending things have improved massively. Society as a whole is less racist and football reflects that but I think it's a pipe dram to imagine that it will ever disappear completely.
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'Is Football Racist?' was very poor IMO. When asking the Asian kids why they hadn't been signed up they just said because they're racist. Why didn't ask them why they thought that and what they thought the reason was?
As for black manager quotas, what a load of shit. Its probably the media attention to the lack of black managers which is putting clubs off appointing any as if they do shit (like Ince) and they get the sack it reflects badly on the club.
I wish he thought out his arguemnets better and used his questioning more effectively, to make a better arguement.
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Is racism in football more or less prevalent than in society as a whole? What I am getting it is can you tackle the issue at one level without addressing the bigger picture?
Since I started attending things have improved massively. Society as a whole is less racist and football reflects that but I think it's a pipe dram to imagine that it will ever disappear completely.
Good question Chris. It is not like people who use racist language at football games just pitch up to the ground and start using it. If people are using that kind of language at football matches, then it is quite obvious that it is part of their mindset away from football as well. It's like the sectarian problem with Rangers and Celtic. Everyone says there is a sectarian problem at those clubs, but I would say that there is a sectarian problem in Scotland and that it manifests itself in those clubs. Take Rangers and Celtic away and those feelings would still be there.
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I remember the 2 different police responses to the 2 incidents I reported after the Arsenal away FA cup game where 1)some pissed up nutter was shouting the most vile racist and homophobic abuse in the seat in front of me (so i reported him to police) and 2) a pissed guy lighting a cigarette.
1 resulted in stewards escorting him out the ground and 2 resulted in the guy being wrestled to the ground by 5 odd police. Doesn't make any sense.
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I could murder a choc ice
Does that qualify as a hate crime?
Not if he murders the dark and white stuff equally with same level of intent and applies violence in proportion.
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Good discussion, but why do we not all go to the next Villa game and all shout " Everybody is a Human Arsehole"
and just have done with it because it will never completely go away for fuck sake. Call somebody a Black.... Somebody a White....... Somebody a Ginger.......... Somebody a Blonde......... Bloody hell it goes on forever. For those of you who have never made a single racist comment of any sort in your entire lives then i salute you and at the same time call you a fucking Liar. It is part of bloody society ( a sad one but part of it) Those of you without sin cast the first stone. Might go a bit quiet then. We are all Human Beings and we are all the bloody same marvellous creations without colour or creed coming anywhere into it, but at some time we have all been " Human Arseholes ". End of in my view.
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You used to write speeches for Dr King didn't you?
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I wish. If the man had not been murdered by the American Government (and do some proper research before your next sarcy comment) then the world would have been a much friendlier and less racist shithole than it is now Percy. IMFV.
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I agree that the assasination of one of the greatest men to draw breath was a 'bad thing' dan.
But my goodness, if he'd spoken in the 'so simplistic it's almost moronic' terms of your post, hero of mine or not, I think I'd have shot him myself.
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Just do some research Percy for crying out loud. King was a choc ice, he'd be still alive today had he been a Zoom.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Can we be racist about the Chinese and Arabs when they take over the world?!
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I wish. If the man had not been murdered by the American Government (and do some proper research before your next sarcy comment) then the world would have been a much friendlier and less racist shithole than it is now Percy. IMFV.
What's the evidence for that claim?
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Can we be racist about the Chinese and Arabs when they take over the world?!
No, but we can do it now. The yellow slinty eyed ching chonged towel headed bastards.
Is what I won't be saying to our new overlord masters. And a fine group of people they are. Long live the Souk! Viva La Confucianism.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Can we be racist about the Chinese and Arabs when they take over the world?!
(http://ichlugebullets.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/father-ted-racist1.jpg)
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Possibly the funniest minute of TV comedy ever
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This whole thread is great read and proves that Omid Djalili is a c unt.
I just hate his fucking shouty Arab stereotype 'act' !
The 'act' that just happens to be portrayed in every advert the tosser does.
Should this be in a different thread ?
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Good thread. I've always wondered why it's still deemed acceptable in this country to be racist - or xenophobic - about the French?
There was a Sunday Times cover story a few weeks ago, in which the wankers AA Gill and Jeremy Clarkson went on a boating holiday in France. Of course, the conclusion was that Clarkson - a confirmed Francophile who loves taking the piss out of the French - convinces Gill - a France hater - that France is good. They both end up loving France and we all live happily ever after. Yet it was nothing more than an excuse to give two untouchable, overpaid and over-indulged wankers a free holiday and a platform for a load of flimsy stereotypical and frankly tedious 'jokes' about 'cheese eaters', 'sheep burners', surrender and garlic.
Why is this acceptable? I mean, it's not as if we in this country haven't had a long history of trying to kill and subjugate the French, is it? I look forward to their next caper, a hang gliding tour of Pakistan.
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This whole thread is great read and proves that Omid Djalili is a c unt.
No, it proves that Russell Peters is a c***. Don't know who he is? Go and check out some of his 'stand up', then see how many fans he has. Weep.
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There was a Sunday Times cover story a few weeks ago, in which the wankers AA Gill and Jeremy Clarkson went on a boating holiday in France. Of course, the conclusion was that Clarkson - a confirmed Francophile who loves taking the piss out of the French - convinces Gill - a France hater - that France is good. They both end up loving France and we all live happily ever after. Yet it was nothing more than an excuse to give two untouchable, overpaid and over-indulged wankers a free holiday and a platform for a load of flimsy stereotypical and frankly tedious 'jokes' about 'cheese eaters', 'sheep burners', surrender and garlic.
Those two tedious cock sockets are right up there just behind poverty, racism and violence as things our society would be better without.
Especially AA Gill, who is the only journo I can think of more sneering than Clarkson
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My then 13 year old son decided that Clarkson was probably the funniest man on the planet and decided to buy all of his books. To my delight, halfway through the 2nd one he came to the conclusion that he was a 'pompous, bigotted twat'. Proud of you son!
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My then 13 year old son decided that Clarkson was probably the funniest man on the planet and decided to buy all of his books. To my delight, halfway through the 2nd one he came to the conclusion that he was a 'pompous, bigotted twat'. Proud of you son!
I was amused when my son described him as a cock end, thet went on to confirm that he was 'the very tip of the penis'
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This whole thread is great read and proves that Omid Djalili is a c unt.
I just hate his fucking shouty Arab stereotype 'act' !
The 'act' that just happens to be portrayed in every advert the tosser does.
Should this be in a different thread ?
I actually find Omid Djalili quite funny, but then I've always interpreted his jokes as mocking the stereotypes rather than mocking the people they reference. After all, virtually every joke he does is about some sort of stereotype and the majority of them are non-Arab stereotypes.
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The best denouncement of racism ever, was when Russell Brand had this to say over the Jade Goody/Big Brother incident a few years ago.
“Oooh! There’s been some bad racism and stuff going down today, and no mistake, my liege. It’s made Mr. Winky go right small it has. Oh yes it has, oh yeah. And my ballbag, my old ballbag, has only gone up my bum. Here’s H from Steps.”
Thanks to Stewart Lee.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
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This whole thread is great read and proves that Omid Djalili is a c unt.
I just hate his fucking shouty Arab stereotype 'act' !
The 'act' that just happens to be portrayed in every advert the tosser does.
Should this be in a different thread ?
I actually find Omid Djalili quite funny, but then I've always interpreted his jokes as mocking the stereotypes rather than mocking the people they reference. After all, virtually every joke he does is about some sort of stereotype and the majority of them are non-Arab stereotypes.
He's entertaining enough, and I don't find his arab impression voice thing racist, but I do get irritated by the fact he wheels it out every ten minutes.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
It was the white man's burden.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
Oh come on now, it's not like we invented concentration camps or anything.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
No, not at all, but I just felt Peter was discounting the fact that a lot of our riches were also gained by developing the best means of using the natural resources found on our own shores. I also think it is unfair that we are in Britain are constantly hammered about the Empire, when other countries very rarely have the finger pointed at them (Belguim's actions in the Congo spring to mind). Why should we feel guilty about events that happened way before most of us were born and that we had no active role in? Yes we should be aware of what happened, but it is this whole guilt trip that I don't get.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
Oh come on now, it's not like we invented concentration camps or anything.
Another myth I'm afraid. Such "camps" had been used before the British implemented them in South Africa.
I would like to point out that I don't support the idea of Empire and am aware that the British were responsible for some terrible incidents that occurred in the colonies.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
Oh come on now, it's not like we invented concentration camps or anything.
Actually, to be fair, the British didn't - it was the Spanish in the Caribbean circa 16th century.
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No, not at all, but I just felt Peter was discounting the fact that a lot of our riches were also gained by developing the best means of using the natural resources found on our own shores. I also think it is unfair that we are in Britain are constantly hammered about the Empire, when other countries very rarely have the finger pointed at them (Belguim's actions in the Congo spring to mind). Why should we feel guilty about events that happened way before most of us were born and that we had no active role in? Yes we should be aware of what happened, but it is this whole guilt trip that I don't get.
The Industrial Revolution spurred the empire on certainly, but what made Britain rich in the first place was the triangular slave trade.
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No, not at all, but I just felt Peter was discounting the fact that a lot of our riches were also gained by developing the best means of using the natural resources found on our own shores. I also think it is unfair that we are in Britain are constantly hammered about the Empire, when other countries very rarely have the finger pointed at them (Belguim's actions in the Congo spring to mind). Why should we feel guilty about events that happened way before most of us were born and that we had no active role in? Yes we should be aware of what happened, but it is this whole guilt trip that I don't get.
The Industrial Revolution spurred the empire on certainly, but what made Britain rich in the first place was the triangular slave trade.
Point taken Stu. It is just that I find the well-aired notion that Britain became a powerful nation only by exploiting other countries a little unfair.
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No, not at all, but I just felt Peter was discounting the fact that a lot of our riches were also gained by developing the best means of using the natural resources found on our own shores. I also think it is unfair that we are in Britain are constantly hammered about the Empire, when other countries very rarely have the finger pointed at them (Belguim's actions in the Congo spring to mind). Why should we feel guilty about events that happened way before most of us were born and that we had no active role in? Yes we should be aware of what happened, but it is this whole guilt trip that I don't get.
The Industrial Revolution spurred the empire on certainly, but what made Britain rich in the first place was the triangular slave trade.
Point taken Stu. It is just that I find the well-aired notion that Britain became a powerful nation only by exploiting other countries a little unfair.
Well it's not that far wide of the mark really. Look at how Britain practised the divide and rule strategy in India, the colonisation of Australia, USA and Canada, all to the detriment of the native peoples in order to stay one step ahead of her rivals. Closer to home, look at the plantation in Ireland, the taxes placed upon the people there by the middlemen representing absentee landlords, and even on the home shores the enclosure acts that turned people into wage labourers to be picked up and dropped whenever it was deemed necessary. It was pretty much entirely exploitative - if it wasn't the natives in India/Caribbean working the fields to export spices/sugar/whatever to Britain, then it was the underclass at home, working in the mines and having their fingers ripped off in industrial loom machines.
Having said all that, if Britain hadn't have been active in empire building, then it's likely that we'd be speaking French or Spanish now. It really was sink or swim from the 16th century onwards.
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thats all well and good but, Omid Djalili is still a c unt
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Having said all that, if Britain hadn't have been active in empire building, then it's likely that we'd be speaking French or Spanish now. It really was sink or swim from the 16th century onwards.
What have you got against Romance languages?
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Having said all that, if Britain hadn't have been active in empire building, then it's likely that we'd be speaking French or Spanish now. It really was sink or swim from the 16th century onwards.
What have you got against Romance languages?
Nothing, it's just that Germanic languages get shit done.
I don't even know what I mean by that.
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But all those cases!
All that der die das!
The backwards numbers!
Waiting for the verb at the end of the sentence!
Germanic languages wear you out.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
No, not at all, but I just felt Peter was discounting the fact that a lot of our riches were also gained by developing the best means of using the natural resources found on our own shores. I also think it is unfair that we are in Britain are constantly hammered about the Empire, when other countries very rarely have the finger pointed at them (Belguim's actions in the Congo spring to mind). Why should we feel guilty about events that happened way before most of us were born and that we had no active role in? Yes we should be aware of what happened, but it is this whole guilt trip that I don't get.
I don't have one iota of guilt about our past. We are"constantly hammered..." because our empire is the only one that's relevant to us. I couldn't give two sites about the Belgians, Germans, French etc As for the natural resources on our shores what were they in the 18th century onwards as we built our empire? Not that I'm that bothered to get into an empire discussion just to say the Empire has got us where we are and to think we weren't racist is wrong.
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I think its only in 'white' countries where you can have this debate. Not only have we got most of our riches based on a racist history but our advancement in terms of society means that we can question racism on the level that we do. We beat ourselves up about it more than we set about dealing with it.
In Nigeria the term for a white person is 'oyinbo' and is used by every Nigerian for any white person. It just means 'white person'. You couldn't say,'black person' over here when talking about them or to them. But Nigeria doesn't have a history of subjugating white people so there's an innocence in the term and I've never met anyone who has taken offence at the term.
Not sure that is a particularly fair comment Peter.
What, Britain bucked the trend in being a cuddly and loving empire builder, rather than all the other nasty ones?
No, not at all, but I just felt Peter was discounting the fact that a lot of our riches were also gained by developing the best means of using the natural resources found on our own shores. I also think it is unfair that we are in Britain are constantly hammered about the Empire, when other countries very rarely have the finger pointed at them (Belguim's actions in the Congo spring to mind). Why should we feel guilty about events that happened way before most of us were born and that we had no active role in? Yes we should be aware of what happened, but it is this whole guilt trip that I don't get.
I don't have one iota of guilt about our past. We are"constantly hammered..." because our empire is the only one that's relevant to us. I couldn't give two sites about the Belgians, Germans, French etc As for the natural resources on our shores what were they in the 18th century onwards as we built our empire? Not that I'm that bothered to get into an empire discussion just to say the Empire has got us where we are and to think we weren't racist is wrong.
I apologise Peter, I didn't mean it as a personal attack on you and "constantly hammered" was probably not the best phrase to use. I just get frustrated that most discussions about race in this country always seem to end up at the Empire and how bad it was.
ps. As for the natural resources on our shores in the 18th century, well there was the copper trade for a start.
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I might be in a majority of one here but i get a bit tiried of hearing multi millionaire footballers cry about racism in the game and things not being fair. What is that the game that has gave you the opportunity to show your value as a person and a performer and to fulfil your dreams without your colour ever holding you back?
Real race issues where discrimination is deplorable, where peoples careers / lives are handicapped by their colour / religion etc need to be highlighted and addressed accordingly but the media and social commentators jumping up and down about things on a football field that in reality is name calling then i find a bit pathetic to be honest.
Someone calls me a name and i dont like it? Either ignore it (as i was taught as a child) or smack them in the mouth (as i learned as an adult) dragging stuff like this through court has proved what exactly - JT is a rascist - wow i am shocked
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I might be in a majority of one here but i get a bit tiried of hearing multi millionaire footballers cry about racism in the game and things not being fair.
Which multi-millionaire footballers have done that? Must be loads for you to be so tired of it.
dragging stuff like this through court has proved what exactly - JT is a rascist - wow i am shocked
It didn't prove anything of the sort.
And are you suggesting that the complaint made should just have been ignored and not investigated?
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I agree that the assasination of one of the greatest men to draw breath was a 'bad thing' dan.
But my goodness, if he'd spoken in the 'so simplistic it's almost moronic' terms of your post, hero of mine or not, I think I'd have shot him myself.
Fair comment Percy.
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Man, you're way too nice to post on here Dan.
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I might be in a majority of one here but i get a bit tiried of hearing multi millionaire footballers cry about racism in the game and things not being fair.
Yep, just you.
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Man, you're way too nice to post on here Dan.
Nah. If ithink i have caused offence to anybody on this forum i just like to sort of appologise,if you get my drift. Sometimes i rant without engaging the little bit of grey matter in my skull,that's all Percy.
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Man, you're way too nice to post on here Dan.
Nah. If ithink i have caused offence to anybody on this forum i just like to sort of appologise,if you get my drift. Sometimes i rant without engaging the little bit of grey matter in my skull,that's all Percy.
Shank him, Perc.
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Man, you're way too nice to post on here Dan.
Nah. If ithink i have caused offence to anybody on this forum i just like to sort of appologise,if you get my drift. Sometimes i rant without engaging the little bit of grey matter in my skull,that's all Percy.
Shank him, Perc.
Cheers
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That's all very well Dan, but I come on here to make up for the dearth of confrontation and violence in my sad, house-bound and work-bound life.
So stick it up your arse, shitface.
*wink*
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I might be in a majority of one here but i get a bit tiried of hearing multi millionaire footballers cry about racism in the game and things not being fair.
Which multi-millionaire footballers have done that? Must be loads for you to be so tired of it.
dragging stuff like this through court has proved what exactly - JT is a rascist - wow i am shocked
It didn't prove anything of the sort.
And are you suggesting that the complaint made should just have been ignored and not investigated?
No not at all am i suggesting it should be ignored - but really, dragged through the courts and the costs associated and the press coverage over an alledged comment said by multi million pound footballers - does it really deserve such coverage?
I personally think that if these 2 people (JT / AF) were just normal joes then this would never have been reported / dealt with in the courts - the mere fact it was them identifies more about our obsession with celebrities than it does with righting the wrongs of society.
What i am struggling to put over is the day that all cases are dealt with in as much enthusiasm as the celebrity ones are then we have really made inroads into the race issue
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That's all very well Dan, but I come on here to make up for the dearth of confrontation and violence in my sad, house-bound and work-bound life.
So stick it up your arse, shitface.
*wink*
Typical Percy response. Ha Ha.
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Hookey, I see your point but it was the fact that it was spotted on prime time TV that was the issue. If any of us had been caught using that kind of language live on the box then we'd have similarly been in that sort of trouble albeit without quite as much publicity to accompany it.
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Can you have a majority of 1?
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Can you have a majority of 1?
Perhaps if you had a split personality.
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Can you have a majority of 1?
Course you can, 5 vote no, 6 vote yes = majority of 1.
But that is not what he meant :)
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Hookey, I see your point but it was the fact that it was spotted on prime time TV that was the issue. If any of us had been caught using that kind of language live on the box then we'd have similarly been in that sort of trouble albeit without quite as much publicity to accompany it.
I agree Chris. Look at the lady who got sent to prison after her tirade on the tube was caught on camera and posted on Twitter.
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Hookey, I see your point but it was the fact that it was spotted on prime time TV that was the issue. If any of us had been caught using that kind of language live on the box then we'd have similarly been in that sort of trouble albeit without quite as much publicity to accompany it.
I agree Chris. Look at the lady who got sent to prison after her tirade on the tube was caught on camera and posted on Twitter.
Bingo.
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I still don't understand the decision in the JT/AF case to be honest - he did use the words "you f****** black c***! but not with racist intent. Is that the nub of it?
Sorry if I'm slow like
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I still don't understand the decision in the JT/AF case to be honest - he did use the words "you f****** black c***! but not with racist intent. Is that the nub of it?
Sorry if I'm slow like
The prosecution couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that he said it with racist intent.
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I still don't understand the decision in the JT/AF case to be honest - he did use the words "you f****** black c***! but not with racist intent. Is that the nub of it?
Sorry if I'm slow like
The prosecution couldn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that he said it with racist intent.
Even more improbably, due to the nature of British law, the defence were able to claim that Terry had suddenly become the second Oscar Wilde ..... and didn't have to provide any proof at all.
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Classic.
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Even more improbably, due to the nature of British law, the defence were able to claim that Terry had suddenly become the second Oscar Wilde ..... and didn't have to provide any proof at all.
Due to the nature of British law?!
What, that ridiculous notion of 'innocent until proven guilty'?!
Which country did you step down as dictator of to come and post on here?
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Problem is because he's John Terry people want to hang, draw and quarter him whether he's guilty or not.
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I plead guilty to that, certainly.
It's a fair cop.
But I've got JT's lawyers, so bite me.
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Even more improbably, due to the nature of British law, the defence were able to claim that Terry had suddenly become the second Oscar Wilde ..... and didn't have to provide any proof at all.
Due to the nature of British law?!
What, that ridiculous notion of 'innocent until proven guilty'?!
Which country did you step down as dictator of to come and post on here?
As any dictator will tell you, it isn't necessary to step down from anywhere to post on here. Thanks to the wonders of wifi, the merest pause from repressing the masses is the worst case scenario.
As for the concept of 'Innocent until proven guilty', I don't have the necessary to take advantage of the 'guilty until proven rich' principle, so I would rather not comment.
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Problem is because he's John Terry people want to hang, draw and quarter him whether he's guilty or not.
Being John Terry, he's got loads of previous for bad behaviour so was probably guilty.
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Problem is because he's John Terry people want to hang, draw and quarter him whether he's guilty or not.
Being John Terry, he's got loads of previous for bad behaviour so was probably guilty.
I'm guessing his parents love him, and some Chelsea fans. I try not to get worked up about things I can't change or influence. Here's the proverbial but. JT, imo, is a complete waste of space. As Mr Lizz has remarked, if I'd have been on a jury trying JT aka absolute f*cking tw*t/c*nt etc, I'd have found him guilty purely based on the fact he's JT. I'd be interested to know if any charities associate with him.
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Problem is because he's John Terry people want to hang, draw and quarter him whether he's guilty or not.
Being John Terry, he's got loads of previous for bad behaviour so was probably guilty.
But thankfully British law doesn't allow people to be convincted because someone thinks they are 'probably guilty'.
It doesn't always give the right result, but it minimises the risk of getting the wrong result.