Racism in football - The Guardian

[Percy McCarthy]

'Choc ice' isn't the same as bastard though to me. It just describes something that is chocolate-coloured on the outside and ice-cream coloured on the inside.

[Chris Jameson]

My ex wife overheard somebody she believed to be a friend speaking to her husband on the phone to let him know the friend she was bringing along to a social gathering was "black, but she's a nice girl". The friendship ended there and then.

[drisaac]

According to lots of reports there is more genetic diversity between Africans than there is in the rest of the world combined.  Europeans, Aboriginal Australians, Eskimos, Chinese, Samoans, Native Americans and Indians are more closely genetically linked to each other than the various peoples of Africa are to each other.

So to ascribe particular attributes to black people is, at best, meaningless.  "Black" is what some people tick on a form about race and tells us less about the genetics of the ticker than had they ticked "Not black".

Most people can't tell you for sure about their "race" beyond about 4 or 5 generations back.  The only racial bit we're 100% sure about is "Human" (and not even that because non-Africans are 4% Neanderthal.)

I routinely tick "other" on that section of forms that asks about race because I don't care about the meaningless concept of my race, your race, or anyone else's race.  I wish everyone would just shut up about it.  As I will now.

[not3bad]

According to lots of reports there is more genetic diversity between Africans than there is in the rest of the world combined.  Europeans, Aboriginal Australians, Eskimos, Chinese, Samoans, Native Americans and Indians are more closely genetically linked to each other than the various peoples of Africa are to each other.

So to ascribe particular attributes to black people is, at best, meaningless.  "Black" is what some people tick on a form about race and tells us less about the genetics of the ticker than had they ticked "Not black".

Most people can't tell you for sure about their "race" beyond about 4 or 5 generations back.  The only racial bit we're 100% sure about is "Human" (and not even that because non-Africans are 4% Neanderthal.)

I routinely tick "other" on that section of forms that asks about race because I don't care about the meaningless concept of my race, your race, or anyone else's race.  I wish everyone would just shut up about it.  As I will now.

Educational stuff, and very interesting. 

[Risso]

'Choc ice' isn't the same as bastard though to me. It just describes something that is chocolate-coloured on the outside and ice-cream coloured on the inside.

I'm aware of the meaning, but I still think it's offensive.

[paul_e]

So was Steve Marriott being racist when he sang 'My skin is white, but my soul is black'?

Am I racist because I prefer black women, or is that just a sexual preference, same as somebody going for blondes? It's as much for their characters as anything.

What about overwhelmingly liking black music over white, and not usually being impressed when white artists make 'black' music?

Or is their really no such thing as 'black music' and white music', like behaviour?

Does this mean that white kids who talk like they're 'from yard' and kiss their teeth not 'wiggers'?

I don't think anything you've said there is racist, but I do think calling somebody a "choc ice" or similar is.  For a start, the negative connotations make a big difference in my opinion.  If I said your wife was a beautiful black woman, I dare say (and indeed hope) that you wouldn't find that offensive.  If I called one of your mates a "black bastard", then that would be a racist, offensive statement. 

Risso's response is very important in regards to the Terry situation.  Being offended by something doesn't mean it was said to be offensive.  The crux of his defense was that Ferdinand took the piss out of him for shagging another guys missus so he took the piss back by calling him a black c**t, with it intended as banter, not to be demeaning.  It's bullshit but how do you prove he's lying?

Anti-racism campaign and laws, etc have got a long way to go, and society in general needs to let go of the concept of black, white, brown, etc being separate races, we're not, all of humanity is a single race, we're all different but we're still one race.  Once that becomes clear the whole idea of racism becomes a nonsense and we move instead towards discrimination, which is where the focus should be (for what it's worth I'd be willing to accept the term culturism, as most things classed as racist are actually aimed at someone's culture rather than the genetic differences that 'race' supposedly covers).

To explain just how ridiculous the concept of racism is you simply have to consider, is it racist to call someone with big ears 'dumbo'?  If not then why is a difference is skin colour considered more important than a difference in the size of someone's ears?  If it's meant to be offensive, and the recipient takes offense, is that somehow ok if about their ears but not it it's about their skin?

I know there are factors which make it more important, but laws and criminal trials aren't the way to absolve those, education and understanding of the absurdity of the idea of people being of a different race because of the level of pigment in their skin, or the slant of their eyes, etc.

[Percy McCarthy]

Those factors you mention are massive though aren't they paul?

As far as I know, nobody's been gassed or lynched because they have big ears, and there are no political movements that believe that those overblessed in the lobe department are somehow inferior to the powerful, law-making, law-enforcing majority who could barely get a single stud stud in their tiny lug-'oles.

[django]

That wasn't Terry's defence though Paul e.

His defence was that Ferdinand, for some unknown and unprovoked reason, thought that Terry had called him a black count*. Terrys response was to say " no i didn't call you a black count* whilst having his faced curled up into a venomous snarl.

*I am well aware that this is not what he called him but it's what my spellchecker thinks he said

By definition it's racist if I said black people are better at running than white people, even though i'm white. So technically Percy you may be racist if you have those sorts of preferences, even though they are positive preferences towards another 'race'. As i may be with my fiancee who is mixed race.

All in all though it seems sad that people still get so hung up on such a 19th Century concept as 'race' in these modern times.

[paul_e]

Those factors you mention are massive though aren't they paul?

As far as I know, nobody's been gassed or lynched because they have big ears, and there are no political movements that believe that those overblessed in the lobe department are somehow inferior to the powerful, law-making, law-enforcing majority who could barely get a single stud stud in their tiny lug-'oles.

Yes I agree, but if people genuinely want to make it not an issue those things need to be put behind us, that's my point.

[danlanza]

My ex wife overheard somebody she believed to be a friend speaking to her husband on the phone to let him know the friend she was bringing along to a social gathering was "black, but she's a nice girl". The friendship ended there and then.

Yuor ex wife should have given her a big slap at the same time.

[pauliewalnuts]

Those factors you mention are massive though aren't they paul?

As far as I know, nobody's been gassed or lynched because they have big ears, and there are no political movements that believe that those overblessed in the lobe department are somehow inferior to the powerful, law-making, law-enforcing majority who could barely get a single stud stud in their tiny lug-'oles.

Yes I agree, but if people genuinely want to make it not an issue those things need to be put behind us, that's my point.

I don't agree with that. If we forget what went on before, we become complacent about it, and if we do that, then we're on the way to getting that way again.

[pauliewalnuts]

'Choc ice' isn't the same as bastard though to me. It just describes something that is chocolate-coloured on the outside and ice-cream coloured on the inside.

I'm aware of the meaning, but I still think it's offensive.

Have to say, I agree with you on that.

It's offensive (in my opinion) because when used - by black people or white - morons see it as lending a legitimacy to racism that will then fuel their own racism.

[tomd2103]

My question is does discrimination just stop at race?  I was born and raised in Birmingham, but have Welsh parents and the Welsh seem to be fair game when it comes to discrimination, especially at football matches.  I didn't go to the game down in Swansea last season, but was really disappointed to hear that some Welsh Villa fans had had their flag destroyed by other Villa fans.  I was looking forward to the home game as although I am Villa through and through, I viewed a Welsh team back in the top flight after a long period of time being a good thing for the game in Wales.  The terrible performance by Villa and the result were bad enough, but I couldn't believe the torrent and vitriolic nature of anti-Welsh abuse that I heard that day.  It was probably one of my worst experiences watching Villa and I was just thankful that my Dad hadn't come to the game with me.  I didn't complain to anyone, but get the feeling that it would have not been taken seriously anyway as some forms of discrimination seem to be acceptable. 



 

[Sunny Villa]

I am Ginger !  the torrent of abuse I have had to face from my own supporters as well as the non Villa supporters prevented me taking my 3 sons and daughter to a football game again .

hate is hate !   Love a Ginger

[django]

The last two forms of publicly tolerated prejudice in Britain, against Brummies and Gingers. By combining both you are going to need a thick skin Sunny, ironically

Hopefully things have improved since you've last been down mate and you can share the ocasional pleasure and frequent disappointment of Villa with the nippers.