Racism in football - The Guardian

[Stu]

The other day there was a bit of a fire and he came up to the assembly point pointing at his skin and saying 'look, I'm burnt already'.

The other black people hate the way he takes the piss out of himself and makes his colour into a joke for white people to laugh at.

Without knowing the bloke at all, that sounds like a self esteem issue, and he's trying to fit in. I'd be embarrassed for him saying/doing that stuff. I can see why other black people would be pissed off with him doing that as well.

Some of them call him a bounty. Why should I be offended by that, or consider it racist towards me? I agree with them.

Well if you don't consider it racist then that's ok, but by the same token I don't think I want anyone suggesting that just because I'm white I make desperate jokes in an attempt to fit in somewhere. I don't give a fuck whether people like me or not in the main. They usually do btw, because I'm ace.

[willywombat]

I used to go to school with a Pakistani lad who used to joke that his family had swam here disguised as an oil-slick. No-one really batted an eyelid in the early 70's but I met up with him the last time we visited Blighty and he's still making similar 'jokes' now. I asked him why he said stuff like that and he was lost for words. We came to the conclusion that he was so frightened of the violence and abuse he and his friends and family were facing at the time that it just became a habit and he wasn't really aware he was doing it. Shit situation

[Small Rodent]

I used to go to school with a Pakistani lad who used to joke that his family had swam here disguised as an oil-slick. No-one really batted an eyelid in the early 70's but I met up with him the last time we visited Blighty and he's still making similar 'jokes' now. I asked him why he said stuff like that and he was lost for words. We came to the conclusion that he was so frightened of the violence and abuse he and his friends and family were facing at the time that it just became a habit and he wasn't really aware he was doing it. Shit situation

Unfortunately, these are the type of people that racists and BNP/EDL types see as "fitting in".

[Concrete John]

Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle?  I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect. 

Things of note for me:-
1.  If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2.  Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3.  Jenas came across really well in it.
 

[E I Adio]

Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle?  I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect. 

Things of note for me:-
1.  If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2.  Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3.  Jenas came across really well in it.
 

I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.

Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.

[Ger Regan]

Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle?  I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect. 

Things of note for me:-
1.  If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2.  Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3.  Jenas came across really well in it.
 

I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.

Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.

To be fair, the way Barnes put it was that white managers were given "more time to fail". There was also a very valid question asked as to why Barnes didn't get another management job for 8 years after his first one. That one is a lot more difficult to explain away, as the game is full of seemingly rubbish managers getting 3rd, 4th or 5th chances at clubs.

[Concrete John]

The thing about black managers to me is that so few retired black players seem to want to go into management.  For every Barnes and Ince there are dozens like Collymore, Wright, Campbell, Dublin, Taylor, etc.

Is it a case of them going for jobs and getting rejected or is there a large apathy from a generation of black players towards management?

[E I Adio]

Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle?  I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect. 

Things of note for me:-
1.  If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2.  Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3.  Jenas came across really well in it.
 

I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.

Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.

To be fair, the way Barnes put it was that white managers were given "more time to fail". There was also a very valid question asked as to why Barnes didn't get another management job for 8 years after his first one. That one is a lot more difficult to explain away, as the game is full of seemingly rubbish managers getting 3rd, 4th or 5th chances at clubs.

Thanks. The bit that I saw did seem a little bit too simplistic. That makes more sense.

[paul_e]

Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle?  I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect. 

Things of note for me:-
1.  If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2.  Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3.  Jenas came across really well in it.
 

I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.

Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.

Football has an inherent belief that good players will go on to be good managers (this is particularly true if they were captain during their playing time).  It's the prime reason why there are so many incompetent managers being paid a fortune to make a complete hash of things.  Would Steve Bruce have had the jobs he's had if he hadn't played for united, for example?

It's ridiculous but it will never change because it suits too many people for their to be a churn of poor managers.

[pauliewalnuts]

Did anyone watch that BBC3 documentary last night with Clark Carlisle?  I found it quite good, but didn't really raise anything I didn't already know or suspect. 

Things of note for me:-
1.  If that scout was really told not to bother with Asian players, why would he admit it openly?
2.  Can't help but think John Barnes is the wrong example to highlight the problem of so few black managers, as he seems to play the 'race card' to quickly and uses it to hide he simply wasn't a very good manager.
3.  Jenas came across really well in it.
 

I didn't watch the programme, but happened to see about one minute whilst flicking channels. It seemed as if the voice-over was extolling the virtues of Barnes as a top player, and attributing his failure to become a top manager to racism.

Now, I've no idea if this is factually correct, but it seemed to me to be a very lazy argument to make if it was just based on his ability as a player.

Football has an inherent belief that good players will go on to be good managers (this is particularly true if they were captain during their playing time).  It's the prime reason why there are so many incompetent managers being paid a fortune to make a complete hash of things.  Would Steve Bruce have had the jobs he's had if he hadn't played for united, for example?

It's ridiculous but it will never change because it suits too many people for their to be a churn of poor managers.

There seems to be an endless conveyor belt of mediocre British managers getting decent jobs without ever really showing anything special in their managerial careers - just bog standard managers whose coaching probably comes straight out of a manual, or from the coaching they received twenty years ago.

There are also too many former top level players who dabble in management, starting with a job that is too big for them - Southgate at Boro, Barnes at Celtic, Pearce at Man City, Shearer at Newcastle, there are plenty of them - then it goes wrong, and they're effectively marked as damaged goods for the foreseeable future.

I understand that there are examples of players who went straight into management at a high level and did well, too, but how many of these "tainted" managers might have turned out to be good ones had they not started somewhere more appropriate for a first-time boss?

Lambert and O'Neill are two managers who did it the right way - they were both very accomplished players, but realised they needed to start their managerial careers at smaller clubs, with lesser expectations, and they're better managers with better careers as a result of it.

[olaftab]

Barnes failed as a manager because he was rubbish just as Bobby Charlton was when he had a go at it.  Race is not a barrier or help when you have been placed in a job.
Below is an opinion only:
The problem is with opportunity. I think there is a mindset with club owners at the moment that denies the opportunity to ex black players. This is similar to lack of opportunity for Asian players. They are just not seen a good footballers in many peoples minds. However on the other hand Asian cricket players benefit from the same attitude in a positive way. The scouts go in with the mindset that thay have the pedigree to be good cricketers.

[tomd2103]

The thing about black managers to me is that so few retired black players seem to want to go into management.  For every Barnes and Ince there are dozens like Collymore, Wright, Campbell, Dublin, Taylor, etc.

Is it a case of them going for jobs and getting rejected or is there a large apathy from a generation of black players towards management?

I don't think football is the only sport where this is an issue.  Having lived in America for a few years, I know it certainly used to be a similar case in basketball and American football.  I know they have attempted to tackle the issue in American football and more African American coaches are being given an opportunity to coach NFL teams.

[QBVILLA]

I don't think this will remain the case. Viv Anderson was the first black player capped by England as recently as 1978 and at the time there were very few black players at the top level. I remember there being a big article in the paper when Big Ron named a Villa side which only had Bosnich as the only white player.Don't think that would even be noticed these days. With the number of top black players these days i honestly believe in 10 years there will be a larger proportion of black managers.

[Hopadop]

I was about to write something to contribute to the debate, then I noticed Percy's apostrophe crime in his last post, and, quite frankly, it has thrown me off kilter so much. I've gone to pieces, I feel let down.

i think I'll go to bed instead.

Sorry paulie. I've fixed it now. Thanks to you and Hopadop for not quoting me fully and leaving it there forever.

Don't mention it. I'm so inclusive I embrace you and your strange punctuation ways.

I didn't notice it

[Concrete John]

But if you go 10 years are there really any more black now then then?  And if not why aren't that generation reflected in today's managers?