Racism in football - The Guardian

[cdbearsfan]

Anyway... well done Villa for your hard work in this area.

[Warren Aspinall]

Is it good that we're all the same? ,or, is it good that we're all different?

[paul_e]

Well this thread went off on an interesting tangent didn't it.

Avoiding the topic of whether genetics (note, genetics, not race, the latter being a made up definition of differences, in fact the term race is probably racist, but if so seeing as the term racist is based on race... I'll stop there) has an effect on sporting performance, this is great to see, the club has done a lot of good work in the area to adapt to the changing community and this is reflected by the fact we've been given this advanced status.

[Ger Regan]

I'm getting into this one late, but isn't it likely that it's a combination of environment and physical characteristics that results in certain races being dominant in particular sports, rather than it being only one or the other?

[Witton Warrior]

Well this thread went off on an interesting tangent didn't it.

It was as inevitable as the rain...

[pauliewalnuts]

I'm getting into this one late, but isn't it likely that it's a combination of environment and physical characteristics that results in certain races being dominant in particular sports, rather than it being only one or the other?

I don't know anything about the biology involved, but surely social background has an enormous effect on the type (class, race etc) of people who rise to the fore in a certain sport.

That's why the few tennis players we produce are so very middle class - you need access to tennis facilities to play the sport in the first place, let alone the supportive parents to subsidise you as you do it through the years.

Whoever it was who mentioned Brazilians being good at football as an indicator that black people are inherently super powered in some way is missing the point about as much as it is possible to do so - Brazil is a real mix of races.

Take three of the best Brazilian players ever - Pele, Zico and Falcao - how on earth can you lump those three in the same racial group?

[MoetVillan]

Surely the "race" card is a red herring in this case.  The top echelon of brazilian footballers are outstanding as so many people play to a high level a game that is accessible to everyone from an early age.  Creed or colour means nothing.  I bet the average English kid could beat the average brazilian on a Xbox.  Nothing to do with race, everything to do with culture and average living standards.  I still believe racism is less about "what" is said, and more about "how" it is said, but realise that things are taken out of context and can hurt and offend people when the original point was not made like this

[E I Adio]

I don't know anything about the biology involved, but surely social background has an enormous effect on the type (class, race etc) of people who rise to the fore in a certain sport.

As with many things, it's complicated.  Simple things like just the popularity of certain sports in different countries plays a part. I can't see any reason why players from the Indian sub continent should be any better at hockey than players in many European countries, or to take it to the extreme, why is Pakistan better at cricket than Norway, if it wasn't for the different levels of popularity of sports in countries with different cultures and histories.

[paul_e]

I'm getting into this one late, but isn't it likely that it's a combination of environment and physical characteristics that results in certain races being dominant in particular sports, rather than it being only one or the other?

Having dodged the bullet last time I'm now going to chip in, of course both are a factor, it's undeniable that, given the same opportunities you won't get the same results.  Across all society if you put everyone into the ideal situation to enhance sprinting performance, ensuring all external factors were the same, you wouldn't see everyone able to break 10 seconds for the 100m, to suggest that you would and genetics plays no part is naive, however it's equally as silly to think that genetics provides anything more than a platform upon which to build success.

[PeterWithesShin]

There's a programme on BBC3 9pm tonight called "Is Football Racist?" Might be worth a watch.

[paul_e]

I don't know anything about the biology involved, but surely social background has an enormous effect on the type (class, race etc) of people who rise to the fore in a certain sport.

As with many things, it's complicated.  Simple things like just the popularity of certain sports in different countries plays a part. I can't see any reason why players from the Indian sub continent should be any better at hockey than players in many European countries, or to take it to the extreme, why is Pakistan better at cricket than Norway, if it wasn't for the different levels of popularity of sports in countries with different cultures and histories.

The more technical a sport gets the less effect genetics has, particularly team sports.  That said there are still elements where genetics have to become involved.  Cricket is my favourite example.  Check the reaction times required by world class batsmen when facing the super-quick seamers.  Being able to see the delivery and play a shot, how much is based on visual queues in the run-up, grip, etc which allows them to predict and how much is based on a genetic factors which allow the info to be processed more rapidly than average?  The reality is both will play a part, a fully trained cricketer with average genetics will do well, an untrained player with great genetics will clearly have no idea, however if the 2nd guy trains he is likely to reach and surpass the 1st much more rapidly because as he trains it will just come easily to him.

[not3bad]

Surely the "race" card is a red herring in this case.  The top echelon of brazilian footballers are outstanding as so many people play to a high level a game that is accessible to everyone from an early age.  Creed or colour means nothing.  I bet the average English kid could beat the average brazilian on a Xbox.  Nothing to do with race, everything to do with culture and average living standards.  I still believe racism is less about "what" is said, and more about "how" it is said, but realise that things are taken out of context and can hurt and offend people when the original point was not made like this

Definitely culture plays a massive part, and climate.  On the one hand you've got a kid playing on the beach to a samba beat.  On the other hand you've got a kid playing in the rain in Wigan.  You can already visualise the contrast in styles they will develop.

[Small Rodent]

Poverty and opportunity has a lot of influence on choosing sports.

[MoetVillan]

See, Im not confident about the "genetics" part.  Nature versus nuture.  I deal in genomics, the study of dna in cattle, and while there is a difference between animals of course in their genetics, their ability to demonstrate that is still being investigated.  However, if cattle are fed different ways, cared for in different ways etc, that has far far more effect in their performance.  Please dont take this that I comparing footballers with cattle, I know for a fact there are far more intelligent Holstein cows walking around than Alan Shearer

[Dave Cooper please]

See, Im not confident about the "genetics" part.  Nature versus nuture.  I deal in genomics, the study of dna in cattle, and while there is a difference between animals of course in their genetics, their ability to demonstrate that is still being investigated.  However, if cattle are fed different ways, cared for in different ways etc, that has far far more effect in their performance.  Please dont take this that I comparing footballers with cattle, I know for a fact there are far more intelligent Holstein cows walking around than Alan Shearer

 As you are a bit of an expert in the field I will obviously bow to your greater knowledge...but...this doesn't explain why nearly all the best British sprinters are black. All kids in this country can go to a track and run, yet we haven't produced a top-class white sprinter since probably Alan Wells.
 Maybe it's just down to role-models, black kids all want to be Usain Bolt or something, but I still think there must be some genetics in play here.
 As I say, I'm no expert so shoot me down if I'm talking rubbish.