Villa Park Redevelopment

[algy]

Thats about it in terms of size, the extra seats come from installing rail seats.

Can you fit more with rail seats ?

From what I remember, it depends on how they're installed ... but potentially you can up to a 50% capacity boost.

The up to is the thing there, though.  Fortunately to go from 50k to 60k you're looking at, what, an extra 20% ... so it might be possible but I'd guess would need extensive rail seating to be installed.

I think that is wrong.

In the UK they are only allowed on a 1:1 basis.

Read that somewhere the other day.

I think they were/are on a 1:1 basis for the trial, and as PWS said there's other factors, e.g. amenities, which restrict the capacity.


However, Telford Athletics Club are building rail seats on a 1:1.6 basis - a 60% increase Vs seating: https://www.fercoseating.com/projects/sports/telford-athletics-club
(Ferco seem to be the main supplier of rail seating in the UK)

This suggests that there might be an upper limit of 1:1.8 (80% increase) based on the current capacity guidelines for terracing in the lower leagues: https://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3

Now, I'd guess reaching the theoretical maximum (1:1.8 ) might be difficult bordering on impossible, just because you've got more rails, have to be able to convert it to seating etc. But it's conceivable that - provided the club were willing to put the investment in (which they seem to be) then a 60% increase, like Telford, might be possible. They might need to be willing to go as far as potentially gutting the innards of, say, the Witton Lane and Holte End to do that though, to deal with the safety issues.


But it's quite enticing to think that a 20k+ capacity Holte End might be on the cards... and not completely out of the question

[chrisw1]

With rail seating I guess in an existing stand you're limited by the current concrete seating steps, so fitting in extra rows isn't easily doable.  I don't think adding 50-80% more people into the existing rows would be feasible, it's already pretty cramped when everyone stands. 

[Pat Mustard]

To get a big increase on capacity with rail seating we would basically have to rebuild the stand - you can't just have 20K people in an area designed for 13.5K for lots of reasons, not least the stand won't have been designed for all of the extra weight. 

[Brend'Watkins]

Love the vid.  The North Stand improvement is welcomed but looking at that it does look very boxy to me, not much architectural flair at all. Maybe it will look better in real life once it's done.

[London Villan]

To get a big increase on capacity with rail seating we would basically have to rebuild the stand - you can't just have 20K people in an area designed for 13.5K for lots of reasons, not least the stand won't have been designed for all of the extra weight. 

The current seating steps can be reprofiled - I can't see how they can install new railseats without doing that. In theory you could do it in the upper and lower teirs, but there will be a lot of people unhappy to lose their seat for safe standing.

[ironmaidenmania]

Interesting watch that video. When they do the build the lower seat in the North Stand remain, so does that mean they are going to remain open during the build?

The cars all drive on the wrong side of the road, except when they show the old ground.

[PeterWithesShin]

It's not just a case of putting in rail seats and ta da, an extra 5k capacity (as an example). As Pat says, weight is an issue. The Holte wasn't designed and built to take 18-20k fans, it was expected it wouldn't change from the approx 13,500 it holds. And then you have the amenities, turnstiles, toilets, concourse size, refreshments (yes I know), fire exits and so on. Again none of those were designed for the extra capacity.

[SoccerHQ]

Wasn't Rail seating proposed for that corner between Hole and Trinity just on a trial? Not sure what's happened to that as assume it's been proposed for the new North stand aswell.

[paul_e]

Love the vid.  The North Stand improvement is welcomed but looking at that it does look very boxy to me, not much architectural flair at all. Maybe it will look better in real life once it's done.

I'm not sure how accurate that video is, the roof is completely different to the one on the official site - https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/

Also Villa Live building is also very different, not least because they've got the orientation wrong by 90 degrees.

The vidoe is still a decent representation of how things might look but I wouldn't dwell on the specifics for long.

[London Villan]

It's not just a case of putting in rail seats and ta da, an extra 5k capacity (as an example). As Pat says, weight is an issue. The Holte wasn't designed and built to take 18-20k fans, it was expected it wouldn't change from the approx 13,500 it holds. And then you have the amenities, turnstiles, toilets, concourse size, refreshments (yes I know), fire exits and so on. Again none of those were designed for the extra capacity.

The benefit with the Holte is the amount of space in has available in the concourses. No doubt there will be a need for more exits, toilets etc, but there is the space to do that.

[algy]

It's not just a case of putting in rail seats and ta da, an extra 5k capacity (as an example). As Pat says, weight is an issue. The Holte wasn't designed and built to take 18-20k fans, it was expected it wouldn't change from the approx 13,500 it holds. And then you have the amenities, turnstiles, toilets, concourse size, refreshments (yes I know), fire exits and so on. Again none of those were designed for the extra capacity.

I agree, there's no point in installing rail seating in the Holte End as is, because it'll cost money and not increase the club's income.  It makes no sense financially.  However, two things seem clear:

1. The club plan to install rail seating
2. It won't be in the new North Stand.

So that leaves 3 stands.  I'd argue that - given that it's where all the corporate facilities are - safe standing is highly unlikely to be in place in much of the Trinity Road stand.  Which leaves the other two - the Holte End or the Witton Lane stand.  I reckon both, eventually, because there's no reason not to.

Anyway, roll with me here...

We can't significantly increase the size of either stand realistically.  So whatever happens is going in the current footprint.  Something the club could do would be ...

The Holte End. Rip out the insides completely.  Leave the external walls, plus anything needed to keep them structurally sound ... and that's it.  Everything else goes.  Then rebuild the inside from scratch.  Huge, single tier terrace with rail seating, custom built to squeeze every last bit of capacity out of that space.  Because you've gutted the place, you can redo the exits, catering, toilets, fire exits, ... from scratch.  It's basically a new-build.  But, still recognisably the 'old' Holte End.  Where once you had 13,500 folk sitting, you can now reconfigure the whole thing to add an extra 7k-8k, .... to the overall capacity.  So it's worth it, as it adds about as much (??) to the capacity as rebuilding the North Stand.  It maybe doesn't matter so much that it'd be horrendously expensive to do, more so than building it from scratch, because at that point we'll be in the 2030s and the Holte End stand will be about 40 years old, so a bit of a heritage stand and potentially, if marketed well, an attraction in it's own right.

Witton Lane stand Make up any shortfall behind the planned 60k capacity through converting as much of the Witton Lane stand as possible to safe standing.  It can't get any bigger than it is right now, so if that ends up being a case of doing a similar job - gutting the insides and starting from scratch - then maybe that's just a cost that has to be paid.  Of course there's a lot let emotional attachment to the Herbert Stand, so it's possibly an easier one to knock down and start again if that works out cheaper (although since it can't be any bigger, there doesn't seem much point to me)

(not saying they would even consider this, it's just an example ...)

[paul_e]

I'd do the changes in witton lane first and probably as a full rebuild because the stand is a mess. Get that up and working as a modern stand and then see where we are. The reason I'd go that way is because it may create an opportunity to turn the holte into a single tier 17-18k stand that could become a real 'statement'.


**SHIT** just re-read that and you already said single tier, in which case I mostly agree but I think I'd do witton lane first because it's barely fit for purpose.

[Steve67]

Is the discussion around any safe standing areas off the agenda?

[paul_e]

Is the discussion around any safe standing areas off the agenda?

That's what rail seating is for.

[Chris Harte]

I imagine any safe standing would be in the Lower Holte.

If they're looking at increasing capacity with the safe standing, excavating the Holte Suite downwards would open up a huge concourse area allowing extra space for people and the amenities required to pass any safety certificates.

Whether lowering the Holte Suite is technically feasible, I don't know.