Post by: Ads on March 03, 2021, 12:09:56 AM
Could we be the Witton going as Phase II?
Quote
Aston Villa is one club who will offer full support for any bid and plan to upgrade Villa Park to ensure it meets Fifa guidelines for the tournament.
Villa Park has a rich tradition of hosting major occasions, including three games at the 1966 World Cup, four Euro 96 games and a total of 16 internationals. It was the first English stadium to host internationals across three different centuries and has also staged a record 55 FA Cup semi-finals as well as the 1999 European Cup Winners' Cup Final between Mallorca and Lazio.
Post by: FatSam on March 03, 2021, 12:23:06 AM
Post by: eamonn on March 03, 2021, 01:04:53 AM
Post by: Mortimer's Bear on March 03, 2021, 07:55:20 AM
Post by: Gareth on March 03, 2021, 08:07:01 AM
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 08:13:49 AM
no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.I agree completely. I'd be entirely up for shoving a big, red brick clock tower like the one at Birmingham Uni in the Witton Lane corner of the North Stand. Just to highlight how tinpot every other ground is compared to ours.
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:16:23 AM
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:21:41 AM
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:25:48 AM
brilliant! why not go the whole hog and stick one in the trinity corner too and mount AV floodlights on them too?no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.I agree completely. I'd be entirely up for shoving a big, red brick clock tower like the one at Birmingham Uni in the Witton Lane corner of the North Stand. Just to highlight how tinpot every other ground is compared to ours.
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:27:58 AM
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 03, 2021, 11:02:27 AM
I will say that any redevelopment that includes AV floodlights and putting a gable on the roof of Trinity Road would get my seal of approval.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:04:14 AM
no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.
Same here, just joined low down as it is atm.
Post by: Ads on March 03, 2021, 11:19:11 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:20:30 AM
Wembley (Final), Tottenham, Emirates, Villa Park, Anfield/Everton, Old Trafford, St. James' Park, Millennium, Hampden, Celtic Park/Murrayfield, Aviva, Croke Park (assuming GAA approve). Possibly Casement Park in Belfast if it's redeveloped to the required standard.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 03, 2021, 11:26:00 AM
I'd much rather England bid for the World Cup alone, and Scotland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland (sorry Northern Ireland, you don't get any games) bid for the Euros instead.
That said, I would rather England bid for 2034 as the romantic in me wants Uruguay to have some involvement in hosting 2030.
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 11:43:50 AM
Assuming the joint 2030 bid goes ahead what would be the 12 stadiums? The following would be a strong list with not much work required.I'd go for the following (organised in geographic groups of 3 grounds to keep travel down during the group stages):
Wembley (Final), Tottenham, Emirates, Villa Park, Anfield/Everton, Old Trafford, St. James' Park, Millennium, Hampden, Celtic Park/Murrayfield, Aviva, Croke Park (assuming GAA approve). Possibly Casement Park in Belfast if it's redeveloped to the required standard.
Wembley (Ldn)
Millenium Stadium (Cdf)
Everton's new ground (Liverpool)
Old Trafford (Mcr)
Olympic Stadium (Ldn)
Villa Park (Brum)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Murrayfield (Edinburgh)
St James Park (Newcastle)
Anfield (Liverpool)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 11:49:22 AM
Even with the expansion to 48 teams, England could easily host the World Cup alone. Adding the Celts makes it less likely to pass as the rest of Europe aren't going to want to surrender five of their sixteen qualifying spots. In any case, such a tournament would likely just be England with a tiny handful of games elsewhere as a token.England plus one other qualify automatically, the other countries get to go through their normal qualification routes?
For me, the point would be more that it's unlikely that Republic of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland would be able to host a world cup without the involvement of England. I'd be happy to see those 4 countries host the important games (final etc), and just use the English grounds to make up the numbers rather than building a 120,000 all seater stadium in Cowdenbeath.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:55:03 AM
Personally I doubt Casement Park will done in time for a bid and will only hold 40k. Croke Park is the third biggest stadium in Europe and an easy walk from the city centre. FiFA would prefer an extra 30-40k seats to sell.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:58:54 AM
Even with the expansion to 48 teams, England could easily host the World Cup alone. Adding the Celts makes it less likely to pass as the rest of Europe aren't going to want to surrender five of their sixteen qualifying spots. In any case, such a tournament would likely just be England with a tiny handful of games elsewhere as a token.
England plus one other qualify automatically, the other countries get to go through their normal qualification routes?
For me, the point would be more that it's unlikely that Republic of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland would be able to host a world cup without the involvement of England. I'd be happy to see those 4 countries host the important games (final etc), and just use the English grounds to make up the numbers rather than building a 120,000 all seater stadium in Cowdenbeath.
Agree with this, some pragmatism would be required. Maybe
1) England as hosts with the other 4 playing a mini tournament for another host spot or
2) England and Scotland as hosts but the semi-finals to be played in Cardiff and Dublin.
I agree with CD that it would be nice to have the 2030 tournament in South America, then 2034 in the British Isles.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 03, 2021, 12:13:44 PM
For England World Cup:
Wembley
One more London: probably Arsenal or Tottenham
Man U
Liverpool
Newcastle
Sunderland
Leeds
One of the Sheffield teams
Villa
East Midlands team: Leicester, Forest or Derby
Norwich
Reading
Bristol City
Milton Keynes
Southampton
Plymouth
For a Celtic Euros:
Hampden
Celtic Park
Murrayfield
Hearts or Hibs
New Aberdeen Stadium
New shared Dundee Stadium
Millennium Stadium
Swansea
Redeveloped Wrexham (they can afford it now...)
Lansdowne Road
Croke Park
Redeveloped GAA ground somewhere in West of Ireland
Post by: eamonn on March 03, 2021, 01:13:22 PM
A similar list but I wouldn't have 2 venues in Liverpool similar to London. Better to have 3 in London and 1 in Liverpool not to put Manc and Brummie noses out plus there's the accommodation to think of.
Personally I doubt Casement Park will done in time for a bid and will only hold 40k. Croke Park is the third biggest stadium in Europe and an easy walk from the city centre. FiFA would prefer an extra 30-40k seats to sell.
Would be bigger if the Dubs didn't insist on keeping their beloved/crumpled Hill16 terrace.
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 02:25:44 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 03, 2021, 02:45:37 PM
Post by: LeeB on March 03, 2021, 03:32:51 PM
Whatever we do we cannot lose the essence of what Villa Park is in terms of its aesthetic appeal and most importantly the football environment it creates. I don’t disagree aspects of the ground need to be brought up to date. Man U fans are saying much the same thing about Old Trafford.
We should look to build exterior facades in the style of the Holte, and sort the Trinity in the same manner if possible.
Post by: Villa Lew on March 03, 2021, 03:58:09 PM
Post by: hipkiss92 on March 03, 2021, 04:12:57 PM
You'd want sixteen grounds, judging by the 2026 effort. They generally only allow the capital to have more than one ground in the World Cup so no Man City or Everton. Bristol City, MK and Plymouth were all included in the last bid, I think.
For England World Cup:
Wembley
One more London: probably Arsenal or Tottenham
Man U
Liverpool
Newcastle
Sunderland
Leeds
One of the Sheffield teams
Villa
East Midlands team: Leicester, Forest or Derby
Norwich
Reading
Bristol City
Milton Keynes
Southampton
Plymouth
For a Celtic Euros:
Hampden
Celtic Park
Murrayfield
Hearts or Hibs
New Aberdeen Stadium
New shared Dundee Stadium
Millennium Stadium
Swansea
Redeveloped Wrexham (they can afford it now...)
Lansdowne Road
Croke Park
Redeveloped GAA ground somewhere in West of Ireland
I could see them having Arsenal and Tottenham rather than including Reading in the list. If Crossrail is sorted by 2030 Reading will essentially be a Borough of London anyway.
Post by: paul_e on March 03, 2021, 04:18:25 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on March 03, 2021, 04:19:29 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.
Build a copy of the Spurs stadium somewhere just north of Worcester and move Villa there
Sorted
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 03, 2021, 04:22:02 PM
Post by: itmustbe_it is! on March 03, 2021, 04:22:12 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.
Both Spurs and Etihad had almost zero atmosphere. Emirates seemed better for some reason. And if you're high up like we were at Etihad (or Wembley) it's like watching a game of Subbuteo.
Post by: oldhill_avfc on March 03, 2021, 04:24:59 PM
There has to remain a separate identity for each of the stands, at least in the upper tiers. You can fill the corners with boxes, corporate seats, restaurants, craft breweries, cheese rooms or whatever else we want, but whatever we do it needs to remain recognisably as Villa Park. As good as Tottenham's new ground may be, when it is filled with fans three quarters of it looks no different to the Emirates or Etihad, or any number of large new builds in other countries.
Your point regarding the Spurs stadium is right. It's main assets are the single tier stand and it's location , ie existing White Hart Lane.
Post by: Drummond on March 03, 2021, 04:27:48 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.
Build a copy of the Spurs stadium somewhere just north of Worcester and move Villa there
Sorted
Coldstream is North of Worcester?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 03, 2021, 04:35:39 PM
I hate wrap around stadiums. Redo the North stand to make it a similar size to the Holte (there's plenty of space) and then we can look at the options for Witton Lane because the concourses in there are a massive problem, it would be tough though as we'd need to have the road moved to stand any chance and I can see a lot of opposition to that.
Or build over the road for the witton lane
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 03, 2021, 04:47:11 PM
I hate wrap around stadiums. Redo the North stand to make it a similar size to the Holte (there's plenty of space) and then we can look at the options for Witton Lane because the concourses in there are a massive problem, it would be tough though as we'd need to have the road moved to stand any chance and I can see a lot of opposition to that.
Or build over the road for the witton lane
Although thanks to Doug's penny-pinching, there is a large chunk of unused space at the front of the lower tier - a fairly shallow rake for the seats here and a decent overhanging upper tier and we might not have to go as far back as we think. I always thought the bigger problem was that if the stand went any higher then it blocks the light to the houses over the back.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 03, 2021, 04:48:22 PM
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 04:48:53 PM
Whatever we do we cannot lose the essence of what Villa Park is in terms of its aesthetic appeal and most importantly the football environment it creates. I don’t disagree aspects of the ground need to be brought up to date. Man U fans are saying much the same thing about Old Trafford.Absolutely. I'd hate them to make Villa Park just another stadium. Its got history and character. They could keep that style and bring the capacity up to around 50,000 which I think would be ideal for us.
Post by: LeeB on March 03, 2021, 04:50:25 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. On would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
You'll do for me, have a bronx hat
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 03, 2021, 04:51:16 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. On would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
You'll do for me, have a bronx hat
Cheers Tom
Post by: nigel on March 03, 2021, 05:02:41 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 03, 2021, 05:06:04 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates
Build it in the city centre then. On the site of the old library !
Post by: Des Little on March 03, 2021, 05:09:54 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 03, 2021, 05:11:56 PM
Post by: KevinGage on March 03, 2021, 05:30:46 PM
There has to remain a separate identity for each of the stands, at least in the upper tiers. You can fill the corners with boxes, corporate seats, restaurants, craft breweries, cheese rooms or whatever else we want, but whatever we do it needs to remain recognisably as Villa Park. As good as Tottenham's new ground may be, when it is filled with fans three quarters of it looks no different to the Emirates or Etihad, or any number of large new builds in other countries.
Indeed. Not a fan at all.
If we go the route of replicating other club's designs I'd bulldoze the Witton Lane carbuncle and look at something similar to the new main stand at Anfield.
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 05:38:19 PM
There's already a 500 million pound development going up on that site called Paradise. The only available land of the size we would need in the city centre is the old wholesale markets site. But it's not going to happen.As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates
Build it in the city centre then. On the site of the old library !
Post by: wittonwarrior on March 03, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
Post by: Duncan Shaw on March 03, 2021, 05:47:55 PM
There's already a 500 million pound development going up on that site called Paradise. The only available land of the size we would need in the city centre is the old wholesale markets site. But it's not going to happen.As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates
Build it in the city centre then. On the site of the old library !
Can you imagine if we built it in the City centre...it would finish the Noses off once and for all I reckon...."But dem viyull bastards ain't from the City....."
Post by: andyh on March 03, 2021, 05:48:41 PM
Post by: sid1964 on March 03, 2021, 05:52:49 PM
Post by: KevinGage on March 03, 2021, 06:00:01 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
The recent Anfield development was quoted as £250 million.
That wasn't just a stand, it's other infrastructure in the area as well.
But still, it's quite a jump from the £15 million or so we paid for the new Trinity back in 2000.
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 06:12:30 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 06:16:45 PM
Whenever I mention that I support Villa, at least to fans who actually go to watch their clubs, they almost always mention how much they like visiting Villa Park, and think it looks brilliant. It must have the same kind of effect on players. I also think you'd lose that completely with a wraparound stadium. I'd rather we stick with a slightly smaller ground (if you can call a 50k capacity ground 'small') but make it stand out.
I don't want a carbon copy of the Holte End facade. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but I'd rather we have 4 unique stands that any other club would class as their 'main' stand. Love this stand at Ibrox, for example. I'm not the world's biggest Sevco fan, but I do think their ground looks absolutely brilliant
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIH9526R108/V-AuAORnX5I/AAAAAAAACIE/PuoHVInZs1oPCR1Gl4cFgwjKtIyrbV5qACLcB/s1600/Ibrox_Bill_Struth_Main_Stand.JPG)
Post by: Rudy65 on March 03, 2021, 07:01:25 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
One Stop isn’t big enough
Post by: aldridgeboy on March 03, 2021, 07:33:04 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 07:56:06 PM
If we developed the Witton lane stand, would that make it the newest stand ever to be redeveloped?It's actually an extension of the old Witton lane stand so no. Wolves have rebuilt the same stand twice since the 80's.
Post by: exigo on March 03, 2021, 10:00:31 PM
Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.
(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:45 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
Post by: AV82EC on March 03, 2021, 10:22:01 PM
Holte End - make it one tier, steeper rake and rail seating back to front.
Trinity Road - Upper Tier concourse needs to be bigger can we go our further.
North Stand - knocked down and start again, mirror the Holte if needs be but link around to Trinity and Witton.
Witton Lane - Knock it down and re-think, going to be difficult but it was done on the cheap and we need to work out how we can make it better. Two tier but rake on lower tier needs to be steeper.
I think I mentioned this before but we have a strange shaped site but have we got enough room to push the whole stadium back 50-100 yards utilising the mass of space we do have behind the North Stand? (ah just checked google maps and looks like we'd have to buy every house on the east side of nelson Road to make that work!!)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 03, 2021, 11:17:47 PM
Fuck that, it always looks half arsed and cheap.
I wrote an article about this for the fanzine a few years ago.
Our ground is four stands. That's the way it should stay or we become like the rest.
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 11:28:02 PM
It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
Post by: KevinGage on March 03, 2021, 11:29:18 PM
But make at least one of them even better and bring the overall finish to a higher standard.
Contrast the hotchpotch we have in the corner between the Holte and Witton Lane and the support posts on the Holte compared to a third rate outfit like Glasgow Rangers, for example.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 03, 2021, 11:44:30 PM
It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
Post by: DB on March 04, 2021, 09:16:32 AM
Post by: eamonn on March 04, 2021, 09:24:30 AM
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 10:37:56 AM
They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
Somebody added photos of all the Midlands clubs' grounds to the "Old Pics of Brum Facebook group, showing the grounds now and then. Here's the old one of Villa Park, with the North Stand looking quite new and impressive compared to the older stands.
(https://i.ibb.co/b2VTx3s/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2VTx3s)
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 10:52:44 AM
Both Witton and Trinity were built on the cheap? They certainly look that way. Trinity facade has got better in recent years, but when it was first built it looked awful.
The Witton was definitely done as cheaply as it could have been. Trinity wasn't that bad but a comparatively small amount extra could have made it spectacular.
Post by: The Edge on March 04, 2021, 11:04:19 AM
I knew something dodgy went on. The space is there to do something special at that end. It's long overdue.It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 11:09:18 AM
Both Witton and Trinity were built on the cheap? They certainly look that way. Trinity facade has got better in recent years, but when it was first built it looked awful.
The Witton was definitely done as cheaply as it could have been. Trinity wasn't that bad but a comparatively small amount extra could have made it spectacular.
The Witton was terrible. Sat in there a few times after it was just built, and if you were 6' plus, you literally couldn't get your legs in because the seats were crammed in so badly.
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 11:27:43 AM
The Holte End is magnificent. The new Trinity lacks the charm of the old one, but its taken 20 years, it's now looking a lot more impressive and with 3 tiers, she is a big old imposing beast. The North is uuugly! But its unique and was something in its day.
The Witton is an absolutely bland two tier non-entity that could be at any ground up or down the land. On balance I think I'd rather knock that down first.
Post by: Towser on March 04, 2021, 11:33:30 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 12:02:05 PM
I knew something dodgy went on. The space is there to do something special at that end. It's long overdue.It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
One of the big problems with that space is car parking, both in terms of capacity and revenue.
Post by: Villan82 on March 04, 2021, 02:10:39 PM
I know the Witton Lane stand is quite mundane but it is not as urgent as the North Stand. Also, I think the Witton Lane stand looks quite OK from outside.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 02:33:40 PM
The North Stand needs to go and should be first to go. Put capacity aside for a minute, the facilities in there are horrific. It doesn't feel safe in the concourse. It is dark, it is cramped. It is just awful. I know it was a great stand in its day but like a lot of builds of that era it has not stood the test of time. If we are honest the late 1970s built North Stand already looked dated by the early 2000s whereas the stands built in the 1990s still look impressive.
I know the Witton Lane stand is quite mundane but it is not as urgent as the North Stand. Also, I think the Witton Lane stand looks quite OK from outside.
Apart from the graffiti on the sides.
Post by: paul_e on March 04, 2021, 02:51:06 PM
One of the big problems with that space is car parking, both in terms of capacity and revenue.
With the shop and the academy/stumps there's a lot of space that could be better used along there.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 03:18:46 PM
One of the big problems with that space is car parking, both in terms of capacity and revenue.
With the shop and the academy/stumps there's a lot of space that could be better used along there.
That's not really much extra space given that even a stand with the same capacity as the current one would have to be much bigger.
Post by: Concrete Tom on March 04, 2021, 04:05:14 PM
Post by: brian green on March 04, 2021, 04:17:12 PM
The power of historic stadiums to act as urban forces for community integration and harmony should never be underestimated.
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 04:20:53 PM
Post by: brian green on March 04, 2021, 04:56:38 PM
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 05:03:15 PM
Post by: Border villan on March 04, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Who parks around Villa Park anyway these days?
All of us who have to use a car to get to Villa Park and home again, at a guess.
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 05:21:19 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 04, 2021, 05:37:00 PM
The Holte End looks amazing here. Wish they could of kept it and built all the facilities for it behind it.
They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
Somebody added photos of all the Midlands clubs' grounds to the "Old Pics of Brum Facebook group, showing the grounds now and then. Here's the old one of Villa Park, with the North Stand looking quite new and impressive compared to the older stands.
(https://i.ibb.co/b2VTx3s/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2VTx3s)
Post by: glinch on March 04, 2021, 05:47:05 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 04, 2021, 06:11:47 PM
The Holte End looks amazing here. Wish they could of kept it and built all the facilities for it behind it.
They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
Somebody added photos of all the Midlands clubs' grounds to the "Old Pics of Brum Facebook group, showing the grounds now and then. Here's the old one of Villa Park, with the North Stand looking quite new and impressive compared to the older stands.
(https://i.ibb.co/b2VTx3s/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2VTx3s)
That would almost certainly have ended up costing a lot more than what we did. Of the 3 stands we rebuilt under Ellis the Holte is the last 1 I'd complain about, TR was decent but could easily have been spectacular and the new Witton Lane being named after him is a far more apt tribute to him than I think anyone intended. That there's a genuine argument to be made to replace that before the North Stand shows exactly the lack of foresight that saw us completely fail to capitalise on where we were in the first 5-10 years of the premier league when other clubs were printing money and setting themselves up as the global elite.
Post by: Chris Smith on March 04, 2021, 06:33:10 PM
Who parks around Villa Park anyway these days?
Conference and banqueting facilities in Aston need a car park. There’s little point in having them otherwise.
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 06:38:27 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on March 04, 2021, 06:47:27 PM
Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that
No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
Post by: ktvillan on March 04, 2021, 06:47:51 PM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.
Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.
(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)
I used to favour the wrap around/bowl approach but so many of those stadiums end up soulless (although I do think St James Park is impressive). I like this one because it retains the 4 separate stands but keeps the corners closed. It's similar though a lot less symmetrical at Anfield (spit) with 4 distinct stands but joined corner to corner with no gaps - I think that helps create some of the intensity of the atmosphere at those two stadiums.
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 04, 2021, 06:54:51 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 04, 2021, 06:57:38 PM
I'm sure it was a MECCA bingo.Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that
No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
Post by: glinch on March 04, 2021, 07:01:31 PM
I'm sure it was a MECCA bingo.Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that
No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
I take it got knocked down in the late 80s/90s ?
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 07:14:44 PM
I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.
I never did either when I lived up there, always parked up in the area where the Power League is now so you could jump back on the M6 quickly.
Post by: OCD on March 04, 2021, 07:17:28 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 04, 2021, 08:20:32 PM
I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.
I never did either when I lived up there, always parked up in the area where the Power League is now so you could jump back on the M6 quickly.
Me too, it's further to walk obviously, but it's only time you'd spend sat on your arse in the car waiting for the traffic to clear. If you're getting back on the M6, it's a good place to park.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 04, 2021, 08:24:07 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
Although for the Witton Lane didn't they have to buy up all the houses immediately behind the stand, move the road back and create that park area?
Post by: Ad@m on March 05, 2021, 07:06:44 AM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
Although for the Witton Lane didn't they have to buy up all the houses immediately behind the stand, move the road back and create that park area?
I thought they had to buy up the houses and create the park but I don't think the road has been moved. It's still dead straight now which suggests it's never been moved.
That road is the big issue with the Witton Lane stand. To make a stand with a decent concourse area we'd need to remove the road and I can't see the city council signing that off.
Post by: FrankyH on March 05, 2021, 07:38:21 AM
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 07:38:59 AM
Post by: CT on March 05, 2021, 07:45:10 AM
I don't like reading about how poor our away end is for opposition fans. I want people to come to Villa Park and be blown away.
I do think shooting away fans is a little harsh Ads. Well, maybe depending on who it is.
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 07:47:47 AM
Post by: Nev on March 05, 2021, 08:22:50 AM
I'm sure it was a MECCA bingo.Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that
No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
It was then Ellis bought it and it became a supporters club for a while serving dreadful mild in plastic glasses. There was at least one players presentation night held there, certainly after we lost the first Premier League title to Newton Heath. Paul McGrath sat with the supporters all night, accompanied by Yorke.
I remember a sports forum with Deano and Dalian as well.
Post by: Duncan Shaw on March 05, 2021, 08:48:53 AM
Years ago when I still lived up there we used to park in the old dog track car park at Perry Barr before they built the shopping centre. Used to amble down to the game with a bag of chips and then a brisk walk back after, past all the queuing cars! Never stuck in traffic. But that was then. Now I drive and park for free at Tamebridge and get the the train in.I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.
I never did either when I lived up there, always parked up in the area where the Power League is now so you could jump back on the M6 quickly.
Me too, it's further to walk obviously, but it's only time you'd spend sat on your arse in the car waiting for the traffic to clear. If you're getting back on the M6, it's a good place to park.
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 08:50:46 AM
I miss that walk.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 05, 2021, 08:55:47 AM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.Internally this looks fantasic and I'd be delighted with that type of layout. Externally it looks as identikit as any other.
Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.
(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)
For me there's going to have to be some filling in of corners or we're just not going to have the sort of capacity to compete with other modern stadiums of our competitors.
Post by: Ad@m on March 05, 2021, 09:13:15 AM
I park the other way down towards the Albion pub, then loop round pump island onto the Express Way. If you stick to the third lane you sail past all the queuing cars and jib your way in onto the M6 North no bother.
I miss that walk.
You're one of THEM!!!!
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
Tooodalooo motherfuckers!
Post by: Drummond on March 05, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 10:49:08 AM
Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.
Post by: Ad@m on March 05, 2021, 10:59:51 AM
I clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.
Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.
I know you're being provocative so I really shouldn't rise to it, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people cutting across the carriageway, almost causing accidents and royally pissing off those who queued safely. Then there's the point that if everyone did what you did, the whole carriageway would grind to a halt, preventing those travelling south on the M6 or off to North Brum from getting there. You only have to look at the state of the roads around junctions in countries which don't have a culture of queuing to see what an absolute mess it is.
Post by: LeeB on March 05, 2021, 11:03:53 AM
I clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.
Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.
Those of us carrying on the Tyburn Rd have to break sharply so you can push in the queue, ya bellend. Next time, if you hear a horn and see a man offering a Nescafe handshake, that will be me.
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 11:25:07 AM
I'm not being particularly serious but I'm not being proactive either. I'm coming from the Pump Island entrance and you Salford Circus lot (Lower Holte types no doubt) are all inching about getting on. What is wrong with over taking that lot, then indicating across half a mile up the expressway and getting safely over?
Lee, I probably won't notice, I'll be too busy waving my top hat out the window shouting tally ho! as I over take all the Salford Circus oiks.
Post by: LeeB on March 05, 2021, 11:38:10 AM
Haha!
I'm not being particularly serious but I'm not being proactive either. I'm coming from the Pump Island entrance and you Salford Circus lot (Lower Holte types no doubt) are all inching about getting on. What is wrong with over taking that lot, then indicating across half a mile up the expressway and getting safely over?
Lee, I probably won't notice, I'll be too busy waving my top hat out the window shouting tally ho! as I over take all the Salford Circus oiks.
Grrrrr!!!! **waves fist angrily**
Post by: nigel on March 05, 2021, 10:08:15 PM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.Internally this looks fantasic and I'd be delighted with that type of layout. Externally it looks as identikit as any other.
Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.
(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)
For me there's going to have to be some filling in of corners or we're just not going to have the sort of capacity to compete with other modern stadiums of our competitors.
Doesn’t look too bad
(http://www.eventlocation-stadion.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/bvb_ev_ca_titel01.jpg)
Post by: robbo1874 on March 05, 2021, 11:47:17 PM
If we were going to move, I'd prefer moving closer to the city centre. But I don't think it's necessary - rebuild the North Stand to have a similar capacity to the Holte End, which I think would take the capacity up to about 49000. I think that's fine for now, and still leaves a bit of scope to upgrade the Witton Lane stand.not really a rangers supporter, but Ibrox looks fantastic. I really wish we could’ve done something like the pic above with the trinity redevelopment. They’ve even got a badge like our old old old old one in the wall. Classy (apart from the financial irregularities and scummy fans)
Whenever I mention that I support Villa, at least to fans who actually go to watch their clubs, they almost always mention how much they like visiting Villa Park, and think it looks brilliant. It must have the same kind of effect on players. I also think you'd lose that completely with a wraparound stadium. I'd rather we stick with a slightly smaller ground (if you can call a 50k capacity ground 'small') but make it stand out.
I don't want a carbon copy of the Holte End facade. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but I'd rather we have 4 unique stands that any other club would class as their 'main' stand. Love this stand at Ibrox, for example. I'm not the world's biggest Sevco fan, but I do think their ground looks absolutely brilliant
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIH9526R108/V-AuAORnX5I/AAAAAAAACIE/PuoHVInZs1oPCR1Gl4cFgwjKtIyrbV5qACLcB/s1600/Ibrox_Bill_Struth_Main_Stand.JPG)
Post by: robbo1874 on March 06, 2021, 12:10:59 AM
The owners must have a grand vision of where they want to go with it and worked backwards to produce a roadmap of sorts. Would be fantastic if we could modernise while incorporating some of the ground's heritage that has been lost over the years.i was thinking it would be great to get input from supporters on potential designs etc. but if the diversity of views expressed just in this site are anything to go by we’d never agree on anything and nothing would get done. That’s not a criticism by the way, just an observation. I like the plans we had that got stymied by WWII, where it looked like there were going to be Holte Ends on 3 sides of the ground and a capacity of around 110-120,000. Imagine being inside that with a decent Villa side - and trying to find somewhere to park!
Post by: robbo1874 on March 06, 2021, 12:22:31 AM
ha ha made me laugh- I read it in a Happy Mondays ‘that scaffolding’s been rendered dangerous’ voice - can’t remember the song titleI clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.
Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.
I know you're being provocative so I really shouldn't rise to it, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people cutting across the carriageway, almost causing accidents and royally pissing off those who queued safely. Then there's the point that if everyone did what you did, the whole carriageway would grind to a halt, preventing those travelling south on the M6 or off to North Brum from getting there. You only have to look at the state of the roads around junctions in countries which don't have a culture of queuing to see what an absolute mess it is.
Post by: robbo1874 on March 06, 2021, 12:27:54 AM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on March 06, 2021, 06:58:12 AM
Post by: Steve67 on March 06, 2021, 07:06:32 AM
Post by: Ads on March 06, 2021, 07:46:55 AM
Post by: Nev on March 06, 2021, 07:54:39 AM
If we were going to move, I'd prefer moving closer to the city centre. But I don't think it's necessary - rebuild the North Stand to have a similar capacity to the Holte End, which I think would take the capacity up to about 49000. I think that's fine for now, and still leaves a bit of scope to upgrade the Witton Lane stand.not really a rangers supporter, but Ibrox looks fantastic. I really wish we could’ve done something like the pic above with the trinity redevelopment. They’ve even got a badge like our old old old old one in the wall. Classy (apart from the financial irregularities and scummy fans)
Whenever I mention that I support Villa, at least to fans who actually go to watch their clubs, they almost always mention how much they like visiting Villa Park, and think it looks brilliant. It must have the same kind of effect on players. I also think you'd lose that completely with a wraparound stadium. I'd rather we stick with a slightly smaller ground (if you can call a 50k capacity ground 'small') but make it stand out.
I don't want a carbon copy of the Holte End facade. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but I'd rather we have 4 unique stands that any other club would class as their 'main' stand. Love this stand at Ibrox, for example. I'm not the world's biggest Sevco fan, but I do think their ground looks absolutely brilliant
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIH9526R108/V-AuAORnX5I/AAAAAAAACIE/PuoHVInZs1oPCR1Gl4cFgwjKtIyrbV5qACLcB/s1600/Ibrox_Bill_Struth_Main_Stand.JPG)
Yep, Rangers are the Scottish rags for me but the preservation of that stand is magnificent. Due to it's position I'm not sure the Trinity would've been as easy but I'm sure it could've been attempted. Whenever Ellis is mentioned that's all I ever think of, his legacy for me is one of unthinking vandalism.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 06, 2021, 10:23:50 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 06, 2021, 10:45:49 AM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 06, 2021, 11:07:36 AM
Post by: The Edge on March 06, 2021, 11:36:16 AM
I saw the Ibrox main stand on sky news and my heart sank a little bit in thought of the old trinity. I think a new north stand with a nod to the old trinity with maybe a gable and a balcony entrance. With regards the current trinity I wish they would cover the metal sheeting with pictures of players from yester year ? . Finally maybe stretch out the witton lane to over the road to allow more space . Something on the lines of 52000 , beautifulThe Main Stand at Ibrox and the Trinity Rd were both superb emamples of Archibald Leitch design. Rangers kept their gem by expanding the original. It was a very tricky operation as they craned in the third tier over the top of the original stand and it was well worth the effort in my opinion. We could have kept ours but Ellis had a way of doing things on the cheap which really shows. Knocking the Trinity Rd stand down on the sly was an act of vandalism. The new Trinity is a great place to watch football from but the exterior looks cheap and tacky. He did redeem himself somewhat with Holte End but his corner shop mentality is stamped on the ground. When the Witton Lane stand does get rebuilt properly it should also get a new more fitting name.
Post by: West Derby Villan on March 06, 2021, 11:51:24 AM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?
Yeah I recall them saying that as well......I think the corner shopkeeper decided that would be too expensive......
Post by: eamonn on March 06, 2021, 12:12:04 PM
Post by: OCD on March 06, 2021, 12:44:54 PM
The owners must have a grand vision of where they want to go with it and worked backwards to produce a roadmap of sorts. Would be fantastic if we could modernise while incorporating some of the ground's heritage that has been lost over the years.i was thinking it would be great to get input from supporters on potential designs etc. but if the diversity of views expressed just in this site are anything to go by we’d never agree on anything and nothing would get done. That’s not a criticism by the way, just an observation. I like the plans we had that got stymied by WWII, where it looked like there were going to be Holte Ends on 3 sides of the ground and a capacity of around 110-120,000. Imagine being inside that with a decent Villa side - and trying to find somewhere to park!
Would be great when it was full. Not so much when it's 50% full. Need to walk before we can run.
Post by: saunders_heroes on March 06, 2021, 01:41:20 PM
I think we’d definitely fill it as well.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 06, 2021, 01:53:12 PM
51,000 doesn't seem recklessly ambitious to me. While we have a 40,000 capacity stadium down the road seems the ideal time to expand, or we could just do it North Stand then Witton Lane and have maybe a couple of seasons playing at a reduced capacity.
I do think they will wait until we have had at least a season of full or near full houses post-Covid before making any announcement, which seems entirely sensible.
Post by: Villan82 on March 06, 2021, 02:49:50 PM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?
Yeah I recall them saying that as well......I think the corner shopkeeper decided that would be too expensive......
I thought they were going to do the North Stan soon after? It feels like there has been talk of a new North Stand for the guts of 20 years?
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 06, 2021, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?
Yeah I recall them saying that as well......I think the corner shopkeeper decided that would be too expensive......
The whole of that project was shrouded in supposition. The old stand was thought to be listed when it wasn't. We thought they'd said the gable would remain but they didn't. Mark Ansell, from memory, told me that they were looking to keep some parts intact but nothing was said for definite.
Post by: brian green on March 07, 2021, 08:13:26 AM
Post by: Virgil Caine on March 07, 2021, 09:11:01 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on March 07, 2021, 09:22:32 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on March 07, 2021, 09:27:11 AM
Post by: exigo on March 07, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
Post by: LeeB on March 07, 2021, 10:58:10 AM
At least two of the stands down the road are listing.
They saved the back to backs in Hurst St , so there is a precedent for saving slum dwellings.
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on March 07, 2021, 11:01:52 AM
Should we need to replace lost executive box facilities then we could build another tower with balconies in one corner, similar to the Holte / Trinity corner.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 07, 2021, 11:11:48 AM
Is there any reason why the Trinity Road wasn’t listed as a building of historical interest? Are there any stands in the football league that can boast such a listing? My only recollection of any commitment to maintaining the fabric of Trinity Road stand is hazy to say the least but I am sure that Ansell did give some assurances, but as DW has said they were probably subject to interpretation. The only thing I did find was an article written by Mac in When Saturday Comes back in 2001. Whatever, it was an act of vandalism which I will never forgive HDE for.
It couldn't be listed because it had been altered too much.
Post by: PGW on March 07, 2021, 11:15:23 AM
At least two of the stands down the road are listing.
The not much Kop and the Tilting End
Post by: Chris Smith on March 07, 2021, 11:26:56 AM
Is there any reason why the Trinity Road wasn’t listed as a building of historical interest? Are there any stands in the football league that can boast such a listing? My only recollection of any commitment to maintaining the fabric of Trinity Road stand is hazy to say the least but I am sure that Ansell did give some assurances, but as DW has said they were probably subject to interpretation. The only thing I did find was an article written by Mac in When Saturday Comes back in 2001. Whatever, it was an act of vandalism which I will never forgive HDE for.
It couldn't be listed because it had been altered too much.
That’s why a building being listed is not necessarily an advantage. On the one hand it offers protection against the worst excesses of architectural vandalism but it is also a barrier to essential modernisation. In a pervious job I came up against this in trying to install modern ICT systems into a large Grade I listed Victorian building. I reckon that it doubled the cost and tripled the timescale.
Post by: FatSam on March 08, 2021, 01:30:59 AM
I enjoyed listening to Gary Naylor contextualising Aston Villa’s early 80s success in the brilliant Nessun Dorma (https://play.acast.com/s/nessundorma/s4ep8-astonvilla-sgloryyears-1980-82-part1) podcast, touching on the London and Manchester press, and the role of Villa Park in the collective football consciousness.
I always think that Birmingham has a strange relationship with its past, and doesn’t value its own history enough. Perhaps the fact that Manzoni’s destruction of parts of the historic city was intended to usher in a progressive future, but instead accompanied economic downturn, is in some way to blame. You might think that either (like Manzoni) there wasn’t anything valuable to lose, or (like his opponents) that much of what was valuable had been lost. Villa Park is almost a microcosm of this, with HDE in the Manzoni role.
Post by: algy on March 08, 2021, 09:14:41 AM
The demolition of the old Trinity very neatly illustrates DE’s corner shop mentality. A long-term plan would’ve been necessary to retain it, conceived even before the Holte End and Witton Lane stands were redeveloped, in order to compensate for the lower capacity and reduced facilities when compared to a complete new build. Mr Aston Villa didn’t have this vision, he approached each stand as a stand-alone project, one after the other.It seems to be a running theme with big cities. Manchester's even worse for it - it's as if they're ashamed of it's past as an industrial city and are intent on knocking all the life & soul out of the place. Really don't understand it, because personally I love that victorian, red brick architecture.
I enjoyed listening to Gary Naylor contextualising Aston Villa’s early 80s success in the brilliant Nessun Dorma (https://play.acast.com/s/nessundorma/s4ep8-astonvilla-sgloryyears-1980-82-part1) podcast, touching on the London and Manchester press, and the role of Villa Park in the collective football consciousness.
I always think that Birmingham has a strange relationship with its past, and doesn’t value its own history enough. Perhaps the fact that Manzoni’s destruction of parts of the historic city was intended to usher in a progressive future, but instead accompanied economic downturn, is in some way to blame. You might think that either (like Manzoni) there wasn’t anything valuable to lose, or (like his opponents) that much of what was valuable had been lost. Villa Park is almost a microcosm of this, with HDE in the Manzoni role.
I've said this before to several groups of people - on the railway between Brum & Wolves, towards the Wolves end, there is (or was) a rail/canal interchange. It's maybe not totally stunning or anything, but to me it's a really interesting bit of industrial heritage. In most places rail replaced the canals, but in the WM there was at least a proportion of industry that was as well, or better, served by canals for perhaps up to the era of mass road transport. It's just been left to decay, though, rather than saying that actually there's something interesting & unique about this place. That it might be worth questioning why that was the case, and then maybe seeing if parallels can be drawn with other walks of life. You know, people might learn something if you show them things they can learn from .. it's infuriating.
Anyway, rant about that aside. I know it's heresy, but I don't really mind that the old Trinity Road stand was demolished. What I do mind is that no parts of the old stand were incorporated in to the new one, and the new one is - in comparison - utterly bland. I just don't get it at all. Surely, with any football club, your ground is a massive part of the club's identity - much more than players or managers, which with only ever temporary (with a vanishingly small number of exceptions - Stanley Matthews, Bill Shankly, or William McGregor from our own parish). I just don't get why you wouldn't make sure that all of your stands, but particularly your main stand, don't scream out at the top of their voice to make sure every player wants to play there, every manager wants to manage there, and every fan wants to go there.
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 09:33:50 AM
It would have been nice to have copied the exterior of the Holte and built something like that in homage, with stained glass perhaps on the first level etc.
What was built took Lerner to finish mind, so there's no doubt HDE did it on the cheap.
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 08, 2021, 09:56:25 AM
You couldn't retain it. It was small and pokey with restricted views owing to the posts. It had a lovely facade, but given how small it was, it would have been impossible to keep it in the footprint of a significantly larger stand.i am sure a compromise between retaining and bulldozing the whole lot could have been found.
It would have been nice to have copied the exterior of the Holte and built something like that in homage, with stained glass perhaps on the first level etc.
What was built took Lerner to finish mind, so there's no doubt HDE did it on the cheap.
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 10:00:26 AM
The area around the McGregor statue now for example, where the actual entrance is would have allowed something similar. When you're inside to go up into the executive boxes, there's a double flight of stairs, so it would have been very similar, albeit bigger, to have built a stair case externally leading to the first floor.
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 10:19:36 AM
Knocking down the Trinity was one Ellis's worst decisions - it needed imagination and foresight to incorporate the stand into the future plan for the stadium - neither his strongest points.
What could have been done? I think there were two options.
1. Keep the external walls of the stand and have fewer seats but more corporate housed in a new stand - then replace the lost seats with the redevelopment of the north stand and witton lane. 15 year plan probably - and some short-term pain.
2. Replace the old stand with some as architecturally unique as Leitch's stand. Not easy, as you'd have a group saying make it look like the past and the other wanting an "interesting" modern design - I think some of the new ballparks in the States have done a good job of the former - Yankee Stadium for example, but "modern" architecture is marmite.
What we got was a decent pitch-facing experience - finished-off by Lerner for almost as much as the stand cost to build originally - but externally the stand is as poor design as anything that has been built in the city in the last 30 years. No focal point, no style, nothing unique. Even edgbaston's new stand, which was constructed on a very tight budget, at least has some of these attributes.
Here is a thought - if we are not moving site - the new north stand is built 5-10 further north, the new witton lane also shifts northwards and uses the space in front of the first row and incorporates an overhang from the second tier. The Holte and Trinity can then have a few extra rows added at the front. Job done - 55,000 - 60,000 seats ready for our Champions League nights.
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 10:28:47 AM
That's why the Holte is for me the best stand in football. It looks brilliant outside. The brickwork, glass, mosaic, the stairs leading up. It's grandiose and a huge nod to the past. Inside its spacious and pitch side it is vast and imposing.
I would love them to put an external facade on the Trinity and think any new North stand ought to meet a similar 3 stage criteria.
Post by: algy on March 08, 2021, 10:47:56 AM
Seems senseless to me to compromise the foot print of your new build to save an aesthetic that you would have been able to replicate on probably a much grander scale.Yeah, I agree with this completely. I don't think it was at all necessary to keep the old Trinity Road stand in place - it'd changed, and been improved upon - since Archibald Leitch first constructed it. But we could've recreated the aesthetic with the new stand, or improved on it - maybe taken in a few highlights from his other work.
The area around the McGregor statue now for example, where the actual entrance is would have allowed something similar. When you're inside to go up into the executive boxes, there's a double flight of stairs, so it would have been very similar, albeit bigger, to have built a stair case externally leading to the first floor.
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 10:57:00 AM
And every fan that enters has to get a taste of the grandeur of stand and the club- as they did with the original.
That said, the original almost bankrupted the club... but worth every penny.
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 11:01:42 AM
The brief as you say for the new North and or Wittion should be;
Pitch side - large, imposing, intimidating
Internally - vast and spacious
Externally - grand, nods to 19th century origins (basically go onto the Holte car park and make some notes of what you see)
I cant think of many stands like the Holte up and down the land really, from the outside.
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 11:09:35 AM
I like the Holte - and there is nothing like it anywhere else in football. West Ham had a go at something different with their (now demolished) sandcastles, which looked kitsch and tacky, but other than that it's all glass and banners.
So that's the balance, character or kitsch - at the end of the day it's a football stadium and not likely to win the Stirling Prize - but it would be great to be able to have something that is unique to us and reflects the achievements of the club.
Post by: Risso on March 08, 2021, 11:19:47 AM
A full Villa Park at night, bouncing, one of the greatest places on earth. The atmosphere at the Everton game at the start of last season, it was like a release of a decade of shite.
The brief as you say for the new North and or Wittion should be;
Pitch side - large, imposing, intimidating
Internally - vast and spacious
Externally - grand, nods to 19th century origins (basically go onto the Holte car park and make some notes of what you see)
I cant think of many stands like the Holte up and down the land really, from the outside.
The atmosphere at the start was brilliant. The atmosphere at the end with the last minute goal was simply sensational.
Post by: Drummond on March 08, 2021, 11:45:35 AM
You couldn't retain it. It was small and pokey with restricted views owing to the posts. It had a lovely facade, but given how small it was, it would have been impossible to keep it in the footprint of a significantly larger stand.i am sure a compromise between retaining and bulldozing the whole lot could have been found.
It would have been nice to have copied the exterior of the Holte and built something like that in homage, with stained glass perhaps on the first level etc.
What was built took Lerner to finish mind, so there's no doubt HDE did it on the cheap.
Building around it. Which sounds a bit stupid, granted, but it would have been possible I reckon.
Post by: Drummond on March 08, 2021, 11:49:58 AM
Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.
In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 08, 2021, 11:59:07 AM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?
Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.
In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
You'd be imposing on the housing behind Witton Lane.
Post by: Villan82 on March 08, 2021, 12:24:55 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 12:29:53 PM
Wouldn't be cheap and means long-term planning. Also assumes the sightlines would still work from the back of the holte and row zzz of the upper trinity.
Post by: eamonn on March 08, 2021, 01:07:25 PM
Post by: cdward on March 08, 2021, 01:14:29 PM
Where would we play our home games if any rebuilding affected the existing pitch?The Lucas sports ground down Moor Lane by Witton Cemetery, or Alexander Stadium?
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 01:27:28 PM
Post by: DB on March 08, 2021, 01:34:31 PM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?
Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.
In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
I like that, would they use existing Triniry Rd stand and wrap it all the way around to the other side of the Holte or start from scratch?
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 08, 2021, 01:57:01 PM
40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.
I think it's only going to hold 30k now, and the two temporary ends will be completely open to the elements. Not sure if I'd fancy sitting in a temporary stand in the pissing rain in the middle of January!
If we redevelop a stand at a time I don't think we would need to move anywhere - when we were rebuilding the Holte and the Trinity we were able to use parts of the stands for some of the season, and even if not we are only losing about 7k off the capacity without the North Stand.
Post by: Ad@m on March 08, 2021, 02:29:35 PM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?
Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.
In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
You'd be imposing on the housing behind Witton Lane.
And building over the road would do nothing to improve the concourse areas in the lower Witton, which is a large part of the problem with the current stand.
Post by: The Edge on March 08, 2021, 03:18:49 PM
The demolition of the old Trinity very neatly illustrates DE’s corner shop mentality. A long-term plan would’ve been necessary to retain it, conceived even before the Holte End and Witton Lane stands were redeveloped, in order to compensate for the lower capacity and reduced facilities when compared to a complete new build. Mr Aston Villa didn’t have this vision, he approached each stand as a stand-alone project, one after the other.Anyone who has an interest in Birmingham history should try what myself and a few others did a couple of years back. We met up in town then joined the canal at Brindley Place and walked it all the way to the Swan and Mitre before heading to Villa Park. A couple of bottles of beer on the way it was a great way to get to Villa park and really interesting perspective on the city's canals. It was knackering though but we took it steady and got to the Swan and Mitre in about an hour.
I enjoyed listening to Gary Naylor contextualising Aston Villa’s early 80s success in the brilliant Nessun Dorma (https://play.acast.com/s/nessundorma/s4ep8-astonvilla-sgloryyears-1980-82-part1) podcast, touching on the London and Manchester press, and the role of Villa Park in the collective football consciousness.
I always think that Birmingham has a strange relationship with its past, and doesn’t value its own history enough. Perhaps the fact that Manzoni’s destruction of parts of the historic city was intended to usher in a progressive future, but instead accompanied economic downturn, is in some way to blame. You might think that either (like Manzoni) there wasn’t anything valuable to lose, or (like his opponents) that much of what was valuable had been lost. Villa Park is almost a microcosm of this, with HDE in the Manzoni role.
Post by: brian green on March 08, 2021, 05:01:12 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 08, 2021, 05:16:24 PM
Let me know if you do it again. I would enjoy that.I will put it on here next time we do it
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 08, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.
I think it's only going to hold 30k now, and the two temporary ends will be completely open to the elements. Not sure if I'd fancy sitting in a temporary stand in the pissing rain in the middle of January!
If we redevelop a stand at a time I don't think we would need to move anywhere - when we were rebuilding the Holte and the Trinity we were able to use parts of the stands for some of the season, and even if not we are only losing about 7k off the capacity without the North Stand.
It really does sound like Birmingham is determined to put on the shittest, cheapest games possible. We've already decided we aren't going to bother with an athletes' village. Either do it properly or don't fucking bother.
Post by: brian green on March 08, 2021, 05:32:14 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 08, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
It's not so much Birmingham it's central government. There's been nowhere near the type of investment in the city that Manchester had when they hosted the commonwealth games.Man City had a ground built for them that I believe cost them £1 and a brand new velodrome was built. Birmingham has been shortchanged by central government once again.40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.
I think it's only going to hold 30k now, and the two temporary ends will be completely open to the elements. Not sure if I'd fancy sitting in a temporary stand in the pissing rain in the middle of January!
If we redevelop a stand at a time I don't think we would need to move anywhere - when we were rebuilding the Holte and the Trinity we were able to use parts of the stands for some of the season, and even if not we are only losing about 7k off the capacity without the North Stand.
It really does sound like Birmingham is determined to put on the shittest, cheapest games possible. We've already decided we aren't going to bother with an athletes' village. Either do it properly or don't fucking bother.
Post by: john2710 on March 08, 2021, 09:03:08 PM
A full Villa Park at night, bouncing, one of the greatest places on earth. The atmosphere at the Everton game at the start of last season, it was like a release of a decade of shite.
The atmosphere at the start was brilliant. The atmosphere at the end with the last minute goal was simply sensational.
I've been lucky enough to be inside Villa Park on a few occasions where the atmosphere was rocking. But that atmosphere vs Everton was unbelievable.
From memory the only ones that come close are the FA Cup game vs Arsenal in 1974 when Sammy Morgan scared the life out of Bob Wilson & the Tranmere game.
And when we're all there soon, it will be every bit as good. I can't wait...
Post by: Ad@m on March 08, 2021, 09:12:31 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 08, 2021, 11:27:54 PM
Villa Park is often like a morgue. You could walk past and not know there was a match on. And sometimes it's got the greatest atmosphere in football.
Post by: steamer on March 09, 2021, 05:27:58 AM
I watched the Everton game on the TV, at 63 i should stop eating onion sandwiches as they have a tearful effect on me
Post by: brian green on March 09, 2021, 09:00:13 AM
Post by: Scratchins on March 09, 2021, 09:13:55 AM
I don't think I'll ever witness an atmosphere at VP like the Atletico Madrid game in the late 90s.
My favourite too. I've said before, it felt like a Tom & Jerry cartoon when Stan scored with the stands bursting out and back again.
Post by: Clive W on March 09, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
I would throw in the Utd LC Semi with those gamesOr how about Jan 1981 2-0 against Liverpool?
I watched the Everton game on the TV, at 63 i should stop eating onion sandwiches as they have a tearful effect on me
40 years ago but can still hear myself screaming:-
“Go on Dennis!!!!”
“Go on Dennis!!!!”
“Go on Dennis!!!!”
“Goalllllllll!!!!!”
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:06:38 AM
Anyone who has an interest in Birmingham history should try what myself and a few others did a couple of years back. We met up in town then joined the canal at Brindley Place and walked it all the way to the Swan and Mitre before heading to Villa Park. A couple of bottles of beer on the way it was a great way to get to Villa park and really interesting perspective on the city's canals. It was knackering though but we took it steady and got to the Swan and Mitre in about an hour.That's a great idea for something to do pre-match.
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:11:41 AM
Yes, I don't think building over roads is ever a very good idea. It just about works on Trinity Road because it is open to the park on the one side, and it's only covered for a slice off the corner of the ground, but imagine what the entire length of Witton Lane stand would be like as a covered space, especially for pedestrians on a non-match night.I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?
Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.
In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
You'd be imposing on the housing behind Witton Lane.
And building over the road would do nothing to improve the concourse areas in the lower Witton, which is a large part of the problem with the current stand.
Post by: Martin Carruthers on March 09, 2021, 11:17:29 AM
Post by: robbo1874 on March 09, 2021, 11:41:21 AM
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:51:08 AM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?I'm quite firmly against a bowl or even a horseshoe as it is so inconsistent with the character of the ground, and because it will never be completely successful due to the various constraints. Much better to embrace the notion of four individual stands I say, in the same way that Liverpool have. They have obviously decided that Anfield in broadly its current form is completely integral to their DNA.
Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.
In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
As I wrote in a separate reply, I don't think building over roads is ever very successful. To extend the Witton Lane stand I think you need to start buying up houses on Holte Road in the same way that Liverpool did. There is obviously a danger of unsettling the local community, which is why a masterplan would be so important, to demonstrate some wider benefits.
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
Post by: LeeB on March 09, 2021, 12:13:30 PM
Loath as I am to praise something in the Lambert era, but the atmosphere in the 6-1 v Sunderland was brilliant.
I remember being absolutely buzzing coming out of that game, and playing the Clash on the car stereo really loud all the way home.
Post by: Ad@m on March 09, 2021, 12:24:38 PM
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
The North Stand currently holds 7k. Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k. Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.
Et voila!
Post by: rjp on March 09, 2021, 12:30:41 PM
Post by: Martin Carruthers on March 09, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Post by: JuanMartinez on March 09, 2021, 12:47:43 PM
I actually think the Steau Bucharest atmosphere was the best as it was the first time we had to come from being behind in a tie and it got us to the last 8.
Post by: in exile on March 09, 2021, 01:47:40 PM
I also know we need to progress but I'm dreading the changes whenever they are.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 09, 2021, 01:56:35 PM
There is plenty of precedent for building stands that end up only being used for a few years (Filbert Street being one where they build a large new main stand about 10 years before they moved completely), so it would pay for itself in that time as long as we remain competitive on the pitch.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 09, 2021, 02:32:56 PM
Whilst I'd kind of love a 'yellow wall' type stand I'm a bit unsure about building a stand that usurps the Hote as the 'home end.' Would it split out most vocal support? I know these are first world problems but see what I mean?I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
The North Stand currently holds 7k. Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k. Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.
Et voila!
Post by: Ad@m on March 09, 2021, 02:49:22 PM
Whilst I'd kind of love a 'yellow wall' type stand I'm a bit unsure about building a stand that usurps the Hote as the 'home end.' Would it split out most vocal support? I know these are first world problems but see what I mean?I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
The North Stand currently holds 7k. Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k. Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.
Et voila!
The Holte has a capacity of 13.5k so if we have ambitions of Villa Park holding north of 50k we need to accept that either the Holte has to go or it's not going to be the biggest stand any more.
The North Stand is the one in most desperate need of a bulldozer - I'd rather we do that properly than worry about "splitting" the home support. When Villa Park is really rocking, every stand is making noise, so a lively North Stand only adds to the atmosphere.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 09, 2021, 03:11:56 PM
Whilst I'd kind of love a 'yellow wall' type stand I'm a bit unsure about building a stand that usurps the Hote as the 'home end.' Would it split out most vocal support? I know these are first world problems but see what I mean?I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
The North Stand currently holds 7k. Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k. Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.
Et voila!
The Holte has a capacity of 13.5k so if we have ambitions of Villa Park holding north of 50k we need to accept that either the Holte has to go or it's not going to be the biggest stand any more.
The North Stand is the one in most desperate need of a bulldozer - I'd rather we do that properly than worry about "splitting" the home support. When Villa Park is really rocking, every stand is making noise, so a lively North Stand only adds to the atmosphere.
I wouldn't have a problem with the Holte being the smaller end stand, make people feel like they have to earn the right to be in there! When they do the next stage of redevelopment at Anfield I believe the Kop (spits) will be the smallest stand there, so again it's not unprecedented.
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 05:25:23 PM
I think the yellow wall holds 25k and a large amount is due to its width. It wraps around the sides and they're included in its capacity. The Spurs end is similar and holds 17k.The Holte is still a true free standing end. If we're to avoid a wrap around at the North Stand end I think 15/16k would be possible as the Holte loses the corner on the Trinity Rd side and they could avoid that. So a potential 50k can be achieved but how would it go down with traditionalists if the North Stand held more than the Holte?I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
The North Stand currently holds 7k. Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k. Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.
Et voila!
Post by: Heald Green Villa on March 09, 2021, 05:51:43 PM
Post by: Drummond on March 09, 2021, 05:57:06 PM
Loath as I am to praise something in the Lambert era, but the atmosphere in the 6-1 v Sunderland was brilliant.
I remember being absolutely buzzing coming out of that game, and playing the Clash on the car stereo really loud all the way home.
yeah, yeah. You mean you were listening to U2, Sund'land, Bloody Sund'land.
Post by: steamer on March 09, 2021, 06:18:02 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 06:27:29 PM
What was the Holte standing capacity before the roof went on, I see to think 22,000I think it went to 22,000 after they created a 6ft gap down the middle and that must've took a couple of thousand off. I seem to remember a figure of 28,000 but not sure if that was ever official.
Post by: Nelly on March 09, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
Villa Park is one of the reasons I am most proud of the club. Such an iconic ground, dripping in history and a true sense of tradition. My preference would certainly be to improve on what we have rather than move away. I can't bear the thought of Villa not playing at Villa Park.
Without meaning to take the thread into the realms of comedy, Tony Xia mooted that idea/fantasy of rebuilding/redeveloping Aston around Villa Park. I'm guessing that isn't on the table any longer?
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 09, 2021, 08:12:07 PM
I wonder what the Holte End capacity would be if safe standing was installed in the lower Holte?
The same, I think. Unless you completely rip out a stand and start again, you can't increase capacity by changing from seating to standing. Increasing capacity means you're legally obliged to increase the number of emerging exits and toilets, among other things. There is also the issue that the structure itself is designed for a certain number of people and letting more in could render the stand unsafe.
I think, anyway. Amfy is the expert and told me something along the lines of the above though I may not have remembered it properly.
Post by: West Derby Villan on March 09, 2021, 09:26:11 PM
What was the Holte standing capacity before the roof went on, I see to think 22,000I think it went to 22,000 after they created a 6ft gap down the middle and that must've took a couple of thousand off. I seem to remember a figure of 28,000 but not sure if that was ever official.
Yeah I remember that 28000 figure back in the 70s
Post by: brian green on March 09, 2021, 10:07:31 PM
Post by: Des Little on March 09, 2021, 10:30:29 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 10:39:54 PM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?It's long overdue so it should be a top priority in my view. The owners plan to make us a European force again so it would be remiss of them to wait until we start a campaign and then decide to knock half the ground down. And we should remember that poxy Wolves have knocked down and rebuilt their North bank twice since we built our North stand in the 70's.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 09, 2021, 10:55:56 PM
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:19:15 PM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?To be in a position to start onsite at the end of next season, a planning application would need to be submitted in six months time at the latest. Its not impossible, but highly unlikely that the design process has started yet. Even if the design work had been progressed behind the scenes, the public consultation involved would be difficult to conclude within these timescales. I think that the club wouldn't want to progress too far with any plans before they are in a position to consult supporters properly anyway, which is obviously difficult in current circumstances. The 2030 target allows enough time to bring the ground as a whole up to the necessary standard, but the North Stand would be the main component of any redevelopment, and won't happen overnight. Unless of course the owners want to bash out HDE's lapsed consent, which I sincerely hope they don't!
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 11:26:57 PM
Interesting cheers for the info. But 2030? Surely it can be done quicker than that? Mind you it's took our council 10 years to extend the tram by about half a mile so if they've got anything to do with it your probably right.When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?To be in a position to start onsite at the end of next season, a planning application would need to be submitted in six months time at the latest. Its not impossible, but highly unlikely that the design process has started yet. Even if the design work had been progressed behind the scenes, the public consultation involved would be difficult to conclude within these timescales. I think that the club wouldn't want to progress too far with any plans before they are in a position to consult supporters properly anyway, which is obviously difficult in current circumstances. The 2030 target allows enough time to bring the ground as a whole up to the necessary standard, but the North Stand would be the main component of any redevelopment, and won't happen overnight. Unless of course the owners want to bash out HDE's lapsed consent, which I sincerely hope they don't!
Post by: FatSam on March 10, 2021, 12:44:46 AM
I suppose I was thinking that the 2030 target is realistic to complete redevelopment of the North stand and some other projects to upgrade the ground. If work on the North Stand started in summer 2023 and continued for 18-24 months, there would be 5 years left to redevelop the Witton Lane stand for example. More likely, nothing much will happen for the next few years whilst our owners assess the post-Covid landscape, and wait until we are fully established in the EPL with more sustainable transfer net spend, before ramping-up the process.Interesting cheers for the info. But 2030? Surely it can be done quicker than that? Mind you it's took our council 10 years to extend the tram by about half a mile so if they've got anything to do with it your probably right.When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?To be in a position to start onsite at the end of next season, a planning application would need to be submitted in six months time at the latest. Its not impossible, but highly unlikely that the design process has started yet. Even if the design work had been progressed behind the scenes, the public consultation involved would be difficult to conclude within these timescales. I think that the club wouldn't want to progress too far with any plans before they are in a position to consult supporters properly anyway, which is obviously difficult in current circumstances. The 2030 target allows enough time to bring the ground as a whole up to the necessary standard, but the North Stand would be the main component of any redevelopment, and won't happen overnight. Unless of course the owners want to bash out HDE's lapsed consent, which I sincerely hope they don't!
Liverpool's timescales to redevelop Anfield aren't dissimilar; declaring their intention to expand the ground in 2011, planning application for the new main stand in spring 2014, opening the stand in autumn 2016, planning application for the new Anfield Road stand at the end of 2020, and now expecting construction to be complete by summer 2023 at the earliest. They have changed their minds a bit, and obviously been affected by Covid, which would have slowed them down a bit, but they have also won the CL and EPL during this period, which must have provided some impetus.
Post by: Ad@m on March 10, 2021, 06:32:25 AM
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 09:24:56 AM
Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
Post by: Mister E on March 10, 2021, 09:49:30 AM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?March 2020.
Oooops.
Post by: algy on March 10, 2021, 09:52:05 AM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.+1 from me. Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.
Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 09:56:20 AM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.+1 from me. Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.
Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
When I was a kid, the brutalist buildings were the nice new places that you wanted to go to, the Victorian buildings were cold and scary looking, but basically my whole stance can still be boiled down to Wyndley swimming baths vs Erdington.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 11:40:56 AM
A rebuilt North Stand to mirror the Holte (with additional corporate facilities) would take us up to c. 50k, and presumably wouldn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things. That's probably all we can do realistically without a rebuild where we shift the stadium 10 yards into the North Stand car park, and to be honest would do us for the next 10 years. If we are consistently successful at that point, then a wholescale redevelopment might be the only way to go.
This for me, two tiers (so as not to overshadow The Holte) and top notch corporate facilities. An exterior facade similar to The Holte (with mosaic and steps etc) and the McGregor statue given pride of place with it renamed The (William) McGregor Stand. Increasing the capacity from 7K to circa 13.5k would bring us close to 50k overall and design the lower tier so that it can be converted to rail seating with minimal fuss/cost.
Post by: Drummond on March 10, 2021, 12:07:07 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on March 10, 2021, 01:25:04 PM
Everton, Tottenham, City, Arsenal etc have taken the difficult decison to completely redevelop / move grounds to be able to compete (with varying sucess I agree). Undoubtedly large parts of their support would have been against these moves but Spurs and Arsenal in particular now have world class stadiums. I'm sure the club get that most football fans lean towards 'traditionalist' views and rightly so. But if we need to fill in some corners to get up to a capacity to compete with these clubs, then so long as it's done with some sympathy and common sence I hope they have the commercial sense to make that difficult decision.
I want Villa Park to retain it's magic and hope there will always be a famous Holte End. But mostly I want Villa to be successful and have a place at the top table and if that means some compromise on stadium design, I'll live with it.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2021, 01:28:29 PM
The problem with fan consultations is that there are as many different opinions as there are fans. I don't pariculalry want my clubs future and development of the ground dictated by the few who stamp their feet the loudest. Thats how you end up with banners which say 'Here come the Aston Villa'
Everton, Tottenham, City, Arsenal etc have taken the difficult decison to completely redevelop / move grounds to be able to compete (with varying sucess I agree). Undoubtedly large parts of their support would have been against these moves but Spurs and Arsenal in particular now have world class stadiums. I'm sure the club get that most football fans lean towards 'traditionalist' views and rightly so. But if we need to fill in some corners to get up to a capacity to compete with these clubs, then so long as it's done with some sympathy and common sence I hope they have the commercial sense to make that difficult decision.
I want Villa Park to retain it's magic and hope there will always be a famous Holte End. But mostly I want Villa to be successful and have a place at the top table and if that means some compromise on stadium design, I'll live with it.
Not much to disagree with there, except that the Emirates is a hole of a place and has robbed Arsenal of the class that they used to have.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 10, 2021, 01:59:41 PM
The problem with fan consultations is that there are as many different opinions as there are fans. I don't pariculalry want my clubs future and development of the ground dictated by the few who stamp their feet the loudest. Thats how you end up with banners which say 'Here come the Aston Villa'
Everton, Tottenham, City, Arsenal etc have taken the difficult decison to completely redevelop / move grounds to be able to compete (with varying sucess I agree). Undoubtedly large parts of their support would have been against these moves but Spurs and Arsenal in particular now have world class stadiums. I'm sure the club get that most football fans lean towards 'traditionalist' views and rightly so. But if we need to fill in some corners to get up to a capacity to compete with these clubs, then so long as it's done with some sympathy and common sence I hope they have the commercial sense to make that difficult decision.
I want Villa Park to retain it's magic and hope there will always be a famous Holte End. But mostly I want Villa to be successful and have a place at the top table and if that means some compromise on stadium design, I'll live with it.
Not much to disagree with there, except that the Emirates is a hole of a place and has robbed Arsenal of the class that they used to have.
Absolutely right about The Emirates - it has robbed Arsenal of their identity and is a soulless place to watch a football match. Even the supposedly successful examples like Spurs, though, are still pre-pack stadia with small tweaks, rather than places with their own character. As I said earlier, the new WHL is basically a ground that is 3/4s the same as The Emirates, The Etihad, Benfica's Stadium of Light and the Aviva Stadium in Dublin, just with a big single-tiered end. I'm certain it's possible to create a ground that suits our needs and will bring far more income without going down this route.
Post by: KevinGage on March 10, 2021, 02:05:09 PM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.+1 from me. Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.
Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
++ for me.
It was the first of its kind in the country and the last stand that links us to the successful teams of the 70s and 80s. Gut the concourses and go to town reprofiling the back of it. But don't level completely when the Witton is far more deserving of that fate.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Not much to disagree with there, except that the Emirates is a hole of a place and has robbed Arsenal of the class that they used to have.
Agree with that and feel that if we ever move from Villa Park we'd lose some of our class/soul too. Hard to beat that feeling as you walk down Aston Park and The Holte End (one of the most famous ends in football) looms into view.
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 02:19:36 PM
A North Stand built built on the same scale as the Holte would hold considerably more. The Holte has a whole corner of it lopped off due to the Trinity Rd being adjacent. A North stand rebuild wouldn't have such restrictions.A rebuilt North Stand to mirror the Holte (with additional corporate facilities) would take us up to c. 50k, and presumably wouldn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things. That's probably all we can do realistically without a rebuild where we shift the stadium 10 yards into the North Stand car park, and to be honest would do us for the next 10 years. If we are consistently successful at that point, then a wholescale redevelopment might be the only way to go.
This for me, two tiers (so as not to overshadow The Holte) and top notch corporate facilities. An exterior facade similar to The Holte (with mosaic and steps etc) and the McGregor statue given pride of place with it renamed The (William) McGregor Stand. Increasing the capacity from 7K to circa 13.5k would bring us close to 50k overall and design the lower tier so that it can be converted to rail seating with minimal fuss/cost.
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 02:28:58 PM
It would seem that the North stand is fast becoming marmite or at least on here it is. My two Bob's worth is I hate brutalist architecture with a passion and find the current North stand about as bland as it gets to look at. The cost of refurbishing it and adding the necessary 7,000+ seats would be far more expensive than demolition and a total rebuild. It would end up a cut n shut type mishmash that HDE would have been proud of.I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.+1 from me. Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.
Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
++ for me.
It was the first of its kind in the country and the last stand that links us to the successful teams of the 70s and 80s. Gut the concourses and go to town reprofiling the back of it. But don't level completely when the Witton is far more deserving of that fate.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 02:50:47 PM
A North Stand built built on the same scale as the Holte would hold considerably more. The Holte has a whole corner of it lopped off due to the Trinity Rd being adjacent. A North stand rebuild wouldn't have such restrictions.
Even better if it would push us over 50k. I've no problem with it having a bigger capacity than the Holte, just don't want it to be a single bank that would dilute the Holte being the 'home' end. Plus I imagine we'd need to incorporate hospitality suites from a revenue point of view.
Post by: CT on March 10, 2021, 03:15:49 PM
I’ve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.
Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.
A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2021, 03:21:24 PM
I just hope we never leave.
I’ve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.
Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.
A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.
They're right, it's shit.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 10, 2021, 03:59:42 PM
But look at something like the Millenium Stadium. Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere. Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless. It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.
I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 10, 2021, 04:24:19 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.
But look at something like the Millenium Stadium. Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere. Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless. It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.
I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.
The important thing with the Millenium Stadium is that it wasn't built with the primary intention of milking as much money as possible out of corporate seats, and was designed to get the maximum number of seats into the smallest footprint - all of the stands feel as though they are on top of the playing field. It also retained part of the old Cardiff Arms Park in it's design, so it still has a clear link to it's heritage. If we could do a similar job with Villa Park I would be very happy.
Post by: Nev on March 10, 2021, 04:27:36 PM
Post by: algy on March 10, 2021, 04:27:51 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.I agree there, love the Millenium Stadium. You get a really intense atmosphere there, I find. Feels like the fans are almost on top of the pitch.
But look at something like the Millenium Stadium. Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere. Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless. It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.
I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.
I'm fine with the corners being filled in, I think, as long as the exterior of the ground keeps it's classy, old school look. I'm sure it's possible to keep the appearance of 4 separate stands up whilst having the corners filled in. As others have said, the yellow wall looks quite distinct inside Dortmund's ground. Externally some clever brick cladding (& non-identical architecture - don't try to recreate the Holte End steps) in the right places would keep the stands distinctive. Maybe clad the main part of the stands and build them out a bit, and leave the corners unclad. Or something signifying that they're separate entities - clocktowers or AV floodlights or whatever.
Post by: PeterWithe on March 10, 2021, 04:35:51 PM
Post by: eamonn on March 10, 2021, 04:39:13 PM
I just hope we never leave.
I’ve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.
Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.
A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.
They're right, it's shit.
Are there any major new stadiums you do like?! And is that why you're in Mexico, to hunt for the spirit of the Estadio Azteca?! Brentford building a new ground on your doorstep was the final straw ;D ;D
Post by: chrisw1 on March 10, 2021, 04:47:02 PM
I think I'm right in saying that whilst the price paid for the Millenium Stadium was comparatively low, it sent the company who built it under as they made a significant loss on it.Yes something like that. I don't know if they wen't bust but I recall they lost significant money on it. The cost they built the Millenium for compared to the ridiculous costs for Wembley was just incredible.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2021, 05:02:13 PM
I just hope we never leave.
I’ve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.
Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.
A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.
They're right, it's shit.
Are there any major new stadiums you do like?! And is that why you're in Mexico, to hunt for the spirit of the Estadio Azteca?! Brentford building a new ground on your doorstep was the final straw ;D ;D
You might be onto something there. The Emirates and the West Ham abomination are the only new ones I've been to (apart from Wembley, which I strangely loved a couple of years back). I really liked Griffin Park though, so I doubt I'd have much time for the one on the M4. Mexico City is full of COVID so I won't see the Azteca on this trip, sadly.
Post by: Rico on March 10, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
Post by: Drummond on March 10, 2021, 06:07:16 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 10, 2021, 06:18:24 PM
We could replicate The North Stand at La Bombonera. With a roof on top. It's three tiers, steep and might work...
The atmosphere at La Bombonera is magnificent
(https://i.ibb.co/c25Fdsx/C5-A952-CA-BC5-B-402-D-A92-E-1-CCAF94-A1986.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c25Fdsx)
(https://i.ibb.co/qnm9RgJ/CCA2-DE3-A-EEA6-4-B43-A11-B-E00-AD970-FEEB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qnm9RgJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/khGzyqQ/3856-BC54-99-E5-4344-9-B23-583-CD9502-FDB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/khGzyqQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/7CqxBrD/6-A41-F59-E-4160-4417-8242-25-E2-DF272548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7CqxBrD)
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 07:09:36 PM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?That looks fantastic I've never seen that before. How high are those end stands? And I'm loving the symmetry something a certain HDE had absolutely no concept of. Two Holte ends and two Trinity Rds opposing each other would tick all the boxes for me with the lower sections joined all around the ground in a continuous sweep.
(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 10, 2021, 07:16:46 PM
Post by: john2710 on March 10, 2021, 07:18:46 PM
Hopefully in the next 2-3 years the stadium simply isn't going to be big enough.
I wouldn't be happy about moving.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 07:33:43 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.
Saw that earlier and agree. However, it's already officially called Estádio Jornalista Mário Filho so they'll probably just change that and it will still be known as the Maracanã.
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 07:54:41 PM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?That looks fantastic I've never seen that before. How high are those end stands? And I'm loving the symmetry something a certain HDE had absolutely no concept of. Two Holte ends and two Trinity Rds opposing each other would tick all the boxes for me with the lower sections joined all around the ground in a continuous sweep.
(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
Never mind Witton Lane, we'd be taking most of Witton itself with that badboy
Count me in..
Post by: Ad@m on March 10, 2021, 08:06:28 PM
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 08:10:44 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got done tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2
They've got massive bastard in Michigan that holds the record for consecutive 100k + attendances and it's only for bleeding college football.
Post by: olaftab on March 10, 2021, 08:56:59 PM
I haven't got a problem if the North Stand was to be bigger than the Holte. It's a nice problem to have. The Witton will always be hamstrung by the position of the road & housing.There is no housing anymore in Witton lane behind the stand.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 10, 2021, 09:01:18 PM
https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-bursaspors-crocodile-arena-stadium-is-one-youll-need-to-visit-20180504.amp.html
Post by: olaftab on March 10, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
Post by: OCD on March 10, 2021, 09:30:03 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got done tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2
Number 1 has my vote too :)
Many of the NFL stadiums are like national stadiums in their own right.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 10, 2021, 09:35:28 PM
The brick exterior and intensely dense interior would be brilliant for a redeveloped Villa Park.
https://www.lucasoilstadium.com/
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 09:55:59 PM
That's because the club purchased all the houses there to allow the extension to the Witton lane. As were now up against the road we would have to move the road to where the park is and purchase the houses. It would be a massive undertaking that would require the co-operation of A. The council and B. The local residents. My gut feelings are that due to these issues they would knock down the North Stand and build it bigger as we already own that land. It seems the logical option and I think we're a long way off ever rebuilding the Witton lane stand.I haven't got a problem if the North Stand was to be bigger than the Holte. It's a nice problem to have. The Witton will always be hamstrung by the position of the road & housing.There is no housing anymore in Witton lane behind the stand.
Post by: Ads on March 10, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
Post by: DB on March 10, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 10:36:48 PM
Liverpool bought up the houses around Anfield.And we will have to if they're going to expand the Witton lane stand. It takes years to get them all to agree to moving. That's why I think if and when work does get underway it will all happen at the North stand end of the ground. We can reach 50k quite comfortably just by doing that end then worry about the Witton lane stand once the demand is there. Nothing to stop the club setting about buying up the propertys on that side of the ground.
Post by: algy on March 10, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
Post by: AV82EC on March 10, 2021, 10:56:12 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.
I don’t think Liverpool did they just bought them up, left them empty, creating a serious case of urban blight and most others then moved out as a result. It was a pretty scummy move in my opinion but it got them what they wanted. I’d like to think we wouldn’t do that and try and take local residents with us on any ground extensions but sometimes it’s the old “omelettes and broken eggs” scenario.
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 11:20:21 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.I totally agree. That's why developing the Witton lane stand will be very difficult. A lot of negotiations with the local community lie ahead. Compromises can always be found that suit everyone.
Post by: Nelly on March 10, 2021, 11:48:33 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2
This was interesting thank you. I notice that their number one ranked stadium is the oldest one on there, from 1957. "Part museum, part mecca, all classic."
Post by: Rico on March 11, 2021, 06:37:44 AM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?That looks fantastic I've never seen that before. How high are those end stands? And I'm loving the symmetry something a certain HDE had absolutely no concept of. Two Holte ends and two Trinity Rds opposing each other would tick all the boxes for me with the lower sections joined all around the ground in a continuous sweep.
(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
Yeah they were big old stands that's for sure. They were both terraced stands, probably on a par with the old Holte End. Interestingly the team that play there are called F.C. Barcelona.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 11, 2021, 09:06:56 AM
Yeah they were big old stands that's for sure. They were both terraced stands, probably on a par with the old Holte End. Interestingly the team that play there are called F.C. Barcelona.
Only holds 57k, looks bigger tbf.
Post by: andrew08 on March 11, 2021, 09:15:11 AM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2
I’m a Packers Fan and been to Lambeau Field a few times and I’m surprised it’s ranked so high in that list. It definitely has that old school feel to it in the original bowl. But the ‘bleachers’ are metal and uncomfortable and bloody cold on your arse if you don’t layer up in winter or September for that matter. The only reason they keep them is because they’d lose about 10,000 season ticket holders places and they already have that 30 year waiting list for tickets as it is. It would be like having a tier of North Stand lower seats and their tight leg room all round Villa Park just to experience how seating was when Doug did it back in the day.
The atmosphere is fantastic, and of course the foyer areas are better than here, but NFL pitches are narrower than footy pitches so you feel a bit closer. Last year before the lockdown I experienced the last minute winner against Leicester to go to Wembley at Villa Park and a play completion at Lambeau to advance the Packers in the play offs within a month or so of each other.
The best atmosphere? Pretty similar at both to be honest....carnage, limbs etc. No away fans in one location to gloat at is the big difference I suppose. The drinking culture at the Packers games is very similar to Villa though, that’s why I like it!
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 11, 2021, 10:59:58 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 11, 2021, 11:05:09 AM
In theory, I wonder if it would be possible to just close Witton Lane from Holte Road all the way up to Station Road? There are no other roads off Witton Lane between those two points, and plenty of other routes for traffic to negotiate around Villa Park - it would add inconvenience, but it's not a particularly busy route most days (plus aren't we supposed to be discouraging car use). It would give much more room for improved concourse areas, and whilst the stand can't really go any higher we could at least use the existing footprint much more efficiently, to hopefully give us a much better stand and probably an increase in capacity.
Go to Villa Park during the week and you'd be surprised at how busy Witton Lane and especially Trinity Road are. There is no way the council would allow one of them to be blocked off, particularly as it would then mean a diversion along Witton Road.
Post by: Risso on March 11, 2021, 11:13:43 AM
In theory, I wonder if it would be possible to just close Witton Lane from Holte Road all the way up to Station Road? There are no other roads off Witton Lane between those two points, and plenty of other routes for traffic to negotiate around Villa Park - it would add inconvenience, but it's not a particularly busy route most days (plus aren't we supposed to be discouraging car use). It would give much more room for improved concourse areas, and whilst the stand can't really go any higher we could at least use the existing footprint much more efficiently, to hopefully give us a much better stand and probably an increase in capacity.
Go to Villa Park during the week and you'd be surprised at how busy Witton Lane and especially Trinity Road are. There is no way the council would allow one of them to be blocked off, particularly as it would then mean a diversion along Witton Road.
True, there's nothing else other than Trinity Road and Witton Lane that really links Witton Road and Lichfield Road in that immediate vicinity other than the roads between the terraces, which aren't fit to be used by that much traffic.
Post by: London Villan on March 11, 2021, 11:15:53 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 11, 2021, 03:58:56 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.
I don’t think Liverpool did they just bought them up, left them empty, creating a serious case of urban blight and most others then moved out as a result. It was a pretty scummy move in my opinion but it got them what they wanted. I’d like to think we wouldn’t do that and try and take local residents with us on any ground extensions but sometimes it’s the old “omelettes and broken eggs” scenario.
Yes I think it caused a lot of animosity around Anfiield , not the way to do it
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 11, 2021, 05:11:09 PM
Yes I think it caused a lot of animosity around Anfiield , not the way to do it
The Guardian covered it in a few articles over the years e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
Shameful really.
Post by: steamer on March 11, 2021, 05:21:53 PM
Doug had sneakily tried to redevelop the Holte by putting a fence down the middle.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it and pulled the fence down"
The concrete had not set and it was not a big deal to push it over. The police were a bit nonplussed as what to do as it had happened before they had a chance to respond
Not sure what the intentions were in putting it up in the 1st place
The rumour was that Doug thought he could sell it out by letting opposition fans in one side.
But my memory is a bit vague and i could be wrong
But there was a fence and after its demolition it never came back
Post by: The Edge on March 11, 2021, 06:24:21 PM
On a humorous memory, I remember being at an early season night game against man city ?They did rebuild the fence. It was there in the last day of the Holte pictures.
Doug had sneakily tried to redevelop the Holte by putting a fence down the middle.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it and pulled the fence down"
The concrete had not set and it was not a big deal to push it over. The police were a bit nonplussed as what to do as it had happened before they had a chance to respond
Not sure what the intentions were in putting it up in the 1st place
The rumour was that Doug thought he could sell it out by letting opposition fans in one side.
But my memory is a bit vague and i could be wrong
But there was a fence and after its demolition it never came back
Post by: London Villan on March 11, 2021, 06:28:13 PM
Post by: andrew08 on March 11, 2021, 06:51:01 PM
Post by: The Edge on March 12, 2021, 09:06:05 AM
Some fabulous stadiums there. Some of them knock spots off Wembley. The last one got me thinking. Behind the North stand we could have something similar we have the space. An entertainment area with bars and eaterys. Something like Box Park at Wembley.The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2
This was interesting thank you. I notice that their number one ranked stadium is the oldest one on there, from 1957. "Part museum, part mecca, all classic."
Post by: London Villan on March 12, 2021, 09:51:18 AM
Post by: Villan82 on March 12, 2021, 09:58:07 AM
Post by: LeeB on March 12, 2021, 10:04:30 AM
Two Holte Ends you say? Two minutes into this video...
Ha, the rags one is wrong, they just needed to strip away the two stands and leave it at that.
Post by: Duncan Shaw on March 12, 2021, 10:10:40 AM
Yes I think it caused a lot of animosity around Anfiield , not the way to do it
The Guardian covered it in a few articles over the years e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
Shameful really.
Wow that's awful.
Must be mis-reported though because surely lovable Liverpool, who everyone loves and was so pleased to see the 30 years of hurt end with them back to their rightful place as the nation's Champions wouldn't shit on their own doorstep like that?
Post by: OCD on March 12, 2021, 11:05:28 AM
Post by: Villan82 on March 12, 2021, 11:06:02 AM
Two Holte Ends you say? Two minutes into this video...
Ha, the rags one is wrong, they just needed to strip away the two stands and leave it at that.
Or just flatten the whole thing.
But ours with two Holte Ends looks the part, doesn't it?
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 12, 2021, 11:16:56 AM
The same Liverpool that are looking to restructure the whole of football to meet their own needs.They have shown what they stand for, is there a bigger myth in football concerning the attitude of this Club?
Post by: Ads on March 13, 2021, 09:21:48 AM
Not necessarily with seats, as I like the Holte being stand alone, but you can fill in with steel or whatever to trap sound.
This is an oldie, and I don't think our gentile and laconic announcer is going to be donning Armani suits and getting quite so animated, but the noise from an enclosed stadium here is spine tingling.
San Paolo stadium (https://youtu.be/QXROcBwRf2E)
Post by: BC Villain on March 26, 2021, 08:19:23 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.
But look at something like the Millenium Stadium. Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere. Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless. It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.
I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.
The Millennium is a fantastic arena for atmosphere as it keeps the sound in and gives you a great feeling of looking down on the action.
Post by: BC Villain on March 26, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.
Absolutely. I've been inside The Maracana (albeit it was empty) but it's one of the few stadiums where you can feel the history and heritage of the place the moment you step inside.
Post by: olaftab on March 26, 2021, 08:57:09 PM
Was there for two world cup matches in 2014. Fans board the trains from central Rio and sing the song something to do with the journey to Mara-cana someone told me. BV wasn't there that day to explain. Can't see then doing the same with we are on our way to...oh yes The King Pele stadium.Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.
Saw that earlier and agree. However, it's already officially called Estádio Jornalista Mário Filho so they'll probably just change that and it will still be known as the Maracanã.
Post by: Ad@m on March 26, 2021, 08:57:50 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.
Absolutely. I've been inside The Maracana (albeit it was empty) but it's one of the few stadiums where you can feel the history and heritage of the place the moment you step inside.
I saw Flamengo there in a full house. It was as immense as you'd expect.
They got stuffed 3-0 so I didn't even see what the reaction to a home goal was like and it was still brilliant!
Post by: eamonn on March 26, 2021, 09:06:22 PM
Post by: SaddVillan on March 27, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
Looking at Villa Park, the Trinity and Witton Lane are hemmed in by roads.
Trying to increase the capacity of Witton Lane we'd really need to build on Witton Lane itself, which might be difficult to get past the neighbours and the Council
The Trinity is an abomination externally - re-skin in it in redbrick and restore the mosaics. But a rebuild would probably not be worth it.
The easiest way to put in additional capacity is to rebuild the North Stand, mirroring, but not quite copying the Holte - it could be configured so the bottom tier coukd be easily converted to standing when circumstances permit.
Most away fans speak highly of Villa Park because it has 4 distinct stands which reminds them of the days before he proliferation of identikit Lego bowls.
Let's keep it that way and stand apart from the crowd.
.
Post by: KevinGage on March 27, 2021, 12:12:50 AM
Re the suggestions to fill in the corners.
Looking at Villa Park, the Trinity and Witton Lane are hemmed in by roads.
Trying to increase the capacity of Witton Lane we'd really need to build on Witton Lane itself, which might be difficult to get past the neighbours and the Council
The Trinity is an abomination externally - re-skin in it in redbrick and restore the mosaics. But a rebuild would probably not be worth it.
The easiest way to put in additional capacity is to rebuild the North Stand, mirroring, but not quite copying the Holte - it could be configured so the bottom tier coukd be easily converted to standing when circumstances permit.
Or do what other clubs in the continent have done and build below ground. Between than and -please God- getting a safe standing section at some point in the not too distant - we could comfortably get 50k plus without offending the neighbours.
Would shrink the pitch a bit but that's no bad thing. Make Villa Park more of an amphitheatre.
Agree about the acoustics re sound escaping from the corners. Zombie FC have shown what can be achieved there with a similar layout and capacity.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 27, 2021, 12:34:35 AM
Post by: Rory on March 27, 2021, 01:12:13 AM
When people think of how good Villa Park is they basically mean the Holte End. Nobody but us cares about having four distinct stands. Fill in the corners between the Trinity Road/North Stand/Witton Lane and leave the Holte End free standing. We need to increase capacity and we play in a highly urbanised area. You can't do that without filling in those corners.
In my opinion, we have half of a great stadium. (Obviously to me, it's all great anyway.)
From within the ground, the Holte and Trinity are fantastic. I think if we could turn the North and the Witton into one cornered stand, that would be grand.
Restore a bit of history to the Trinity external, and include a club musem. Put a good proportion of the TV and corporate facilities in a conjoined North & Witton, facing the spectacle and beauty of the Holte & Trinity, and we'd have an iconic, modern ground with a 55k capacity (which is perfect in my opinion - big enough, but limited opportunities for tourists).
Obviously the Witton is short of space, but if we built a joint stand with the corner, I think we could get away without it being much bigger. Combine the joint stand with a visitor centre underneath the corner, preferably with a direct link from Witton station, and with a club shop/leisure complex in the current car park, with a bar/food hall.
In my view, it would be a nice mixture of heritage and modern facilities, but with the view for visitors always being the heart of the club - the Holte and Trinity (including club museum).
Post by: Des Little on March 27, 2021, 07:40:09 AM
By replacing the North Stand, we can achieve 50-55k capacity, which is absolutely fine, however there is also much to do in the other three stands, and dare I say it immediate vicinity of the ground, to make the whole visitor experience a lot better than it already is. I think the next year or two are critical to this.
Post by: Villan82 on March 27, 2021, 12:23:13 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 27, 2021, 12:45:27 PM
Post by: eamonn on March 27, 2021, 01:01:52 PM
Let's get it started while there's no fans to get in the way of making it more difficult.
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 27, 2021, 01:07:56 PM
Even if things are back to normal we don't know how the pandemic will affect behaviour. People might be more inclined to go to games after over a year locked up, or they may be more nervous about spending time in crowds. What is almost certain is that numbers of fans from abroad, whether tourists or returning Brummies, will be down for many years.
I think the Board will wait until we've had at least a season of full or near full houses before announcing any great expansion plans.
Post by: The Edge on March 27, 2021, 01:40:53 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 27, 2021, 02:07:49 PM
Post by: BC Villain on March 27, 2021, 02:21:47 PM
When I walk across Aston park the sight of seeing our ground is fantastic - I personally hope that we never move from Villa Park
If NSWE do look at upgrading Villa Park, could that mean we end up playing at the Alexander Stadium while they do the work? Probably wouldn't be big enough in fairness
Post by: cdbearsfan on March 27, 2021, 04:29:25 PM
Post by: exigo on March 27, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
When people think of how good Villa Park is they basically mean the Holte End. Nobody but us cares about having four distinct stands. Fill in the corners between the Trinity Road/North Stand/Witton Lane and leave the Holte End free standing. We need to increase capacity and we play in a highly urbanised area. You can't do that without filling in those corners.
The corners used to be filled in. Here's Villa Park in 1904 and 1907. I'm all for maximising the space we've got, to make sure we stay where we are. Nothing like coming down the Aston Hall hill, or past Aston church to see the ground rising up.
(https://i.ibb.co/KjQD7Ys/Screenshot-2021-03-27-at-16-24-39.png) (https://ibb.co/KjQD7Ys)
(https://i.ibb.co/YkmWDBM/Screenshot-2021-03-27-at-16-24-11.png) (https://ibb.co/YkmWDBM)
Post by: OCD on March 27, 2021, 04:43:41 PM
Post by: BC Villain on March 28, 2021, 10:26:42 AM
The North Stand needs to go and should be first to go. Put capacity aside for a minute, the facilities in there are horrific. It doesn't feel safe in the concourse. It is dark, it is cramped. It is just awful. I know it was a great stand in its day but like a lot of builds of that era it has not stood the test of time. If we are honest the late 1970s built North Stand already looked dated by the early 2000s whereas the stands built in the 1990s still look impressive.
I know the Witton Lane stand is quite mundane but it is not as urgent as the North Stand. Also, I think the Witton Lane stand looks quite OK from outside.
Apart from the graffiti on the sides.
Didn't I read somewhere that Gary Newbon of all people claimed he'd suggested that the club name that stand after Ellis? Certainly wouldn't shock me given what a toady he was
Post by: olaftab on March 28, 2021, 11:06:19 AM
Football clubs around the world are getting on with improving their stadiums and we shouldn't be any different. I'd like the owners to make a statement by announcing big plans for redevelopment. I would go for a continuation of the Trinity all the way round to the Witton Lane stand but not joining on to it as we currently don't have the space. That would take us past the 50k mark. The land at the back of North stand could be developed into a Box Park at Wembley type of thing which could be used as a venue for concerts etc. That's my vision.You mean an Aston Villa Leisure Centre type of venue? ;)
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on March 28, 2021, 12:09:08 PM
As far as I know, the whole issue of allowing fans to stand again is still up in the air. We may well be waiting for this to be resolved before we start firming up any plans we have.
There would be no need to delay things due to this as we could just install rail seats that flip up to allow a seating area to become a terrace. The German clubs have done this for years and now Spurs, Wolves and Man City have already made similar plans.
Post by: The Edge on March 28, 2021, 05:46:19 PM
Kind of but have you been to the Box Park at Wembley? Brilliant pre match venue and we have the space to do it. Clubs need to stop thinking about car parks. Those days are ending.Football clubs around the world are getting on with improving their stadiums and we shouldn't be any different. I'd like the owners to make a statement by announcing big plans for redevelopment. I would go for a continuation of the Trinity all the way round to the Witton Lane stand but not joining on to it as we currently don't have the space. That would take us past the 50k mark. The land at the back of North stand could be developed into a Box Park at Wembley type of thing which could be used as a venue for concerts etc. That's my vision.You mean an Aston Villa Leisure Centre type of venue? ;)
Post by: robbo1874 on March 29, 2021, 07:21:10 AM
Sounds gaudy written in words, but would look better in drawings if you’d taken mushrooms.
Post by: robbo1874 on March 29, 2021, 07:25:12 AM
Post by: algy on March 29, 2021, 08:55:04 AM
I would like a big fuck off single tier, detached stand with the rail seats at the Witton End plus the two clock towers with AV flood lights atop.I'm starting to come round to filled in corners at the North Stand end, provided the North Stand is a single tier stand. Doesn't matter whether the corners are single tier or something else, since whatever they are the Witton End will be a distinct stand. That said, I've a slight preference for having it all single tier, including the filled in corners, to restore our rightful place as owners of the largest behind-the-goal stand in Europe. Install rail seats, even if safe standing isn't officially allowed. Let's see how long that restriction lasts then.
Sounds gaudy written in words, but would look better in drawings if you’d taken mushrooms.
AV floodlights up either end, with the addition of a big, fuck off clock tower in the Holte End / Witton Lane corner. Presumably it'll need to incorporate some kind of pedestrian arch to not block off that emergency exit, which is fine. Rail seat the lower tier of the Holte End whilst we're at it.
Once all that's done, build downwards / underground, knock down the current Witton Lane stand, rebuild it so that it looks good. Thinking have the upper tier overlap the lower tier, like they do at the Millennium stadium. Want a proper cauldron of a ground, with the fans practically on top of the pitch. Rail seat the lower tier, returning our entire lower tiers to terracing with the exception of the Trinity Road stand.
Make Aston Villa Great Again (MAVGA)
Post by: Rico on March 29, 2021, 09:11:08 AM
Post by: eamonn on March 29, 2021, 09:24:27 AM
I’ve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.
Stick it on the CV
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 29, 2021, 10:25:57 AM
I wrote to Randy about the old badge. The Gold Stripy one.I’ve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.
Stick it on the CV
Post by: robbo1874 on March 29, 2021, 11:27:18 AM
stick it up yer bollocks, eamonn 😄I’ve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.
Stick it on the CV
Post by: Des Little on March 29, 2021, 01:57:17 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 29, 2021, 02:34:56 PM
Post by: LeeB on March 29, 2021, 02:36:37 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 29, 2021, 02:55:29 PM
Post by: LeeB on March 29, 2021, 06:03:03 PM
The North Stand looks like Adrian Chiles.
That's why I want it to stay, in your absence.
Post by: exigo on March 29, 2021, 10:58:21 PM
That would give us the space for a properly big North stand, a Witton stand that's easier to take over the road, an equally big Trinity, and a wider Holte End.
Easy enough for billionaires, I'm sure.
Post by: in exile on March 30, 2021, 11:19:21 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on March 30, 2021, 11:30:51 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 11:39:49 AM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment. Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here.
Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
Post by: chrisw1 on March 30, 2021, 11:50:25 AM
You mean in the North Stand car park? Always seemed very busy, but not sure how many fans are up for paying £8-9 quid for pre match food in the long run. Of course the club loose money on their own catering too. Still, I thought it created a good atmoshere and in a more structured environmemt with access to bars and toilets etc it could be very good.A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment. Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here.
Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
Post by: LeeB on March 30, 2021, 12:44:29 PM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment. Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here.
Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
Without using it myself because we'd been stuffing ourselves in the Barton's beforehand, I walk to the North Stand past them and they always seemed to be busy, though the one time I did want something they didn't have the facility to take cards which was a bit crap.
Post by: eamonn on March 30, 2021, 01:12:02 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on March 30, 2021, 01:18:42 PM
it'll probably be £8-9 a pint once all this shit is out the wayYou mean in the North Stand car park? Always seemed very busy, but not sure how many fans are up for paying £8-9 quid for pre match food in the long run. Of course the club loose money on their own catering too. Still, I thought it created a good atmoshere and in a more structured environmemt with access to bars and toilets etc it could be very good.A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment. Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here.
Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 02:35:56 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 30, 2021, 03:34:53 PM
It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there and arriving at the match later.
That was always my plan when I went regularly, if I was at the ground much earlier than 10minutes before kick off it was very rare. I think the club could do with organising a lot more events on match day (there were the family fun days a while back that seemed pretty popular and having a space or 2 that are easy to setup for things like that would be useful, could do things like kit launches and live player interviews to get more out of it.
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 30, 2021, 04:03:12 PM
Post by: LeeB on March 30, 2021, 04:15:09 PM
Post by: Ad@m on March 30, 2021, 04:16:46 PM
Having lived in North America for a long time the one thing that is glaringly different is the choice of food inside and outside of the ground vs what we see out here. Football grounds have always been about getting as many people in, serving them a basic menu as quickly as possible in a compressed amount of time. A part of the solution is changing the overall experience of coming to be sports event versus focusing on one thing. From what I have read it apppears Spurs have gone down that road, but then their new stadium allows them to do that versus older stadiums across the country.
Whilst I agree with you, some of the issues are out of the clubs control though.
Firstly, US sports take ages!!! If you've got a whole day at the game then you can take your time a bit more. It's more akin to cricket in the UK where adding an hour before the start isn't a massive impact when you plan to be there all day anyway. Whereas a game of football is done and dusted in an afternoon - turn up 1/2 hours early and you've doubled the amount of time you're out of the house.
Then there's the historic issue of alcohol. Again, at a cricket match in the UK or any US sport you can go and get some food, bring it back to your seat and take your time over it. Football is all about squeezing as much food and drink in to the bits around the game as quickly as possible, which lends itself to basic stuff akin to fast food. If you could drink beer in the stands at a football match it would make more varied food options more viable.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 04:24:49 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 30, 2021, 04:28:39 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 04:35:43 PM
Food is far more important for Americans, what ever they do wherever they go there is food available and usually lots of it. Only in the US will you see someone go to the bar and order shit loads of food and then say as an afterthought, “does anybody want any drinks”
That's a point I'd never thought about before but it's true. Americans have the same attitude to food as we do to beer. Whatever the occasion, it's there.
Post by: N'ZMAV on March 30, 2021, 04:58:08 PM
Post by: Woofles The Wonder Dog on March 30, 2021, 05:31:04 PM
Food is far more important for Americans, what ever they do wherever they go there is food available and usually lots of it. Only in the US will you see someone go to the bar and order shit loads of food and then say as an afterthought, “does anybody want any drinks”
That's a point I'd never thought about before but it's true. Americans have the same attitude to food as we do to beer. Whatever the occasion, it's there.
When you ask for directions from a passer-by (clearly before GPS) in the UK, it was common for those to be signposted by pubs (go a mile down here to The Rose And Crown, carry on to you see The Bald-Faced Stag and it's just on the left). We found in America that'd be fast food outlets.
My gast was flabbered by the few moments of a sports lover in the USA weren't eating. Mind you the longeurs at baseball and American Football (honorary exceptions for Ice Hockey) left me wishing I'd bought a book with me.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 30, 2021, 06:22:26 PM
Post by: algy on March 30, 2021, 06:27:06 PM
Not sport, but there was food on the boat from Fisherman's Wharf, an area replete with eateries, to Alcatraz. A journey of some twelve minutes.For balance, you can get a beer on the Mersey ferry, which doesn't take that long in rush hour :)
Post by: Des Little on March 30, 2021, 07:42:15 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 14, 2021, 05:55:47 PM
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/wsc-live-around-the-grounds-tickets-147793039961
Post by: robbo1874 on April 15, 2021, 09:46:35 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2021, 02:09:25 PM
That's not what English grounds are meant to look like. That's for foreign grounds and identikit recent English grounds (Boro, Leicester, Swansea, Cardiff, Hull, 100 other clubs)
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on April 15, 2021, 03:02:57 PM
...... recent English grounds....... , Swansea, Cardiff....
Ahem
Post by: nigel on April 15, 2021, 04:28:10 PM
...... recent English grounds....... , Swansea, Cardiff....
Ahem
😂
Post by: algy on April 15, 2021, 05:00:28 PM
Please, no filled in corners.See, I was of that mind and then I started thinking ...
That's not what English grounds are meant to look like. That's for foreign grounds and identikit recent English grounds (Boro, Leicester, Swansea, Cardiff, Hull, 100 other clubs)
First, filled in corner grounds aren't universally bad. The Millennium Stadium in Cardiff is the obvious one - one of my favourite non-Villa grounds, has filled in corners, but in my book is pretty distinctive and has an absolutely cracking atmosphere inside.
Then, just because the corners are filled in doesn't mean the stands have to merge in to one. If the Witton End was a huge, single tier kop-type stand, and the Witton Lane & Trinity Road remained as 2 and 3 tier stands respectively, you'd still have 4 distinct stands ... the single tier Witton End, 2 tier Witton Lane Stand, the 3 tier Trinity Road stand being obviously the 'main' stand, and a freestanding Holte End.
I'm not sure exactly how, but 'AV' floodlights down the Witton End, and a big brick clocktower in the Holte End/Witton Lane corner ... there's no way that's an identikit stadium of any description. Plus, make the corners single tier and the Witton End / North Stand becomes the biggest behind-the-goal-stand in Europe and starts to form a really strong identity of it's own*.
* Personally I love the brutalist masterpiece that's currently in place, and regularly sit there when I go to matches ... but if the ground's being redeveloped it's the obvious place to start.
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on April 15, 2021, 05:08:30 PM
I don't get the binary classification that:
- Filled in corners = bad and soulless
- Not filled in corners = good and authentic
I know there are a number of very similar 'bowl' type designs are are tough to tell apart, but it doesn't have to be the outcome.
If the brief given to prospective architects is clear and they are encouraged to reflect the character and traditions of a club and stadium, then why would you impose a condition related to the corners of the ground?
UTV
Post by: paul_e on April 15, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
Post by: Smirker on April 15, 2021, 08:34:02 PM
Trinity, North and Doug Ellis all in one (yes with filled in corners) with a level roof and then Holte on it's own. Some little refurbishments around the ground to make it sexier and give it more pizzazz.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2021, 08:43:52 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 15, 2021, 08:51:50 PM
Post by: Lucky Eddie on April 15, 2021, 08:59:41 PM
Post by: exigo on April 15, 2021, 10:11:18 PM
Anyone seen the plans for the redevelopment recently? Presumably just the ones from last time- continuation of the trinity round to the Witton with filled in corners?
We're tweaking the Holte into a V shape, and wrapping the rest round for the A.
Post by: Ads on April 15, 2021, 10:19:40 PM
Post by: paul_e on April 15, 2021, 10:21:34 PM
Redevelop the Holte to make it a 22,000 single tier stand. Add 8000 on the North with a new stand that has joined lower tiers and enclosed upper tier space to trap the sound.
Yep, that'd do the job for me.
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 15, 2021, 10:39:02 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 15, 2021, 10:54:30 PM
It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there and arriving at the match later.
That was always my plan when I went regularly, if I was at the ground much earlier than 10minutes before kick off it was very rare. I think the club could do with organising a lot more events on match day (there were the family fun days a while back that seemed pretty popular and having a space or 2 that are easy to setup for things like that would be useful, could do things like kit launches and live player interviews to get more out of it.
Haven't looked at this thread for a while (Everton new ground is only going to be 52k btw which surprised me as most new builds are around 60k but guess they'll go big on coporate facilities as hardly any at Goodison).
Anyway it will be interesting to see what we do next season with regards pre match entertainment. Doubt full capacity will be a thing for first few months and can imagine they'll be a demand from authorities for us to try to get more people in their seats earlier than usual so we don't get bottlenecks around the entrances and concourse, same for half time.
One easy thing to do would be to bring some old players back for maybe an interview at 2.40pm or something or just do it at half time, can remember Angel and Laursen coming back for a game in the championship and most people stayed in the stands to applaud.
Luc Nilis did an interview a while ago saying he'd love to return to VP when we're back at full capacity:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jack-grealish-luc-nilis-villa-19218216
Seems we don't do this sort of thing anywhere near enough as other clubs do with ex players and seems relatively easy to do, can remember VP being full at ten to three when Ron Saunders came back after his long exile.
One other thing might be perhaps to get a local band playing at side of the pitch or something. Just having that kicking the ball into the flag competition dosen't quite tempt me away from my half time burger.
Post by: KevinGage on April 15, 2021, 11:07:06 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 16, 2021, 01:04:35 AM
Post by: Des Little on April 16, 2021, 08:30:49 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 16, 2021, 09:42:16 AM
Horse shoe shape is the ideal scenario.This is the obvious answer to me. Maximum capacity for the space and the Holte remains special and stand alone. Possibly to be rebuilt bigger and steeper at some point in the future.
Trinity, North and Doug Ellis all in one (yes with filled in corners) with a level roof and then Holte on it's own. Some little refurbishments around the ground to make it sexier and give it more pizzazz.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 16, 2021, 09:46:06 AM
I'd love to see the U19's have a game before the main game. I guess there would be concerns re pitch condition, but if they can get over that it would be worth worth arriving early for.It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there and arriving at the match later.
That was always my plan when I went regularly, if I was at the ground much earlier than 10minutes before kick off it was very rare. I think the club could do with organising a lot more events on match day (there were the family fun days a while back that seemed pretty popular and having a space or 2 that are easy to setup for things like that would be useful, could do things like kit launches and live player interviews to get more out of it.
Haven't looked at this thread for a while (Everton new ground is only going to be 52k btw which surprised me as most new builds are around 60k but guess they'll go big on coporate facilities as hardly any at Goodison).
Anyway it will be interesting to see what we do next season with regards pre match entertainment. Doubt full capacity will be a thing for first few months and can imagine they'll be a demand from authorities for us to try to get more people in their seats earlier than usual so we don't get bottlenecks around the entrances and concourse, same for half time.
One easy thing to do would be to bring some old players back for maybe an interview at 2.40pm or something or just do it at half time, can remember Angel and Laursen coming back for a game in the championship and most people stayed in the stands to applaud.
Luc Nilis did an interview a while ago saying he'd love to return to VP when we're back at full capacity:
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jack-grealish-luc-nilis-villa-19218216
Seems we don't do this sort of thing anywhere near enough as other clubs do with ex players and seems relatively easy to do, can remember VP being full at ten to three when Ron Saunders came back after his long exile.
One other thing might be perhaps to get a local band playing at side of the pitch or something. Just having that kicking the ball into the flag competition dosen't quite tempt me away from my half time burger.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 16, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
I'd love to see the U19's have a game before the main game. I guess there would be concerns re pitch condition, but if they can get over that it would be worth worth arriving early for.
Why not after the main game? Less concern wrt the pitch and people are more likely to stay on and watch if they're already there than turn up 2 hours earlier than usual. Obviously depends on the kick-off time of the main match so maybe once a month rather than every home game.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
I'd love to see the U19's have a game before the main game. I guess there would be concerns re pitch condition, but if they can get over that it would be worth worth arriving early for.
Why not after the main game? Less concern wrt the pitch and people are more likely to stay on and watch if they're already there than turn up 2 hours earlier than usual. Obviously depends on the kick-off time of the main match so maybe once a month rather than every home game.
The brightest crop of talent we've had for decades playing on a pitch that's already cut up and I'm sure the ground staff would love the challenge of fixing a surface that's had two games on it as well.
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 16, 2021, 12:06:50 PM
Post by: rjp on April 16, 2021, 12:17:32 PM
Post by: luke95 on April 16, 2021, 12:43:41 PM
Maybe have the game kicking off at half 12 at Bodymoor and have it shown in the VP concourses, might encourage a few more in early to watch or even put it on one of the screens in the car parks.Was just going to suggest that myself & it would have to be before as people just wouldn't hang about after especially if we have lost .
Post by: London Villan on April 16, 2021, 01:40:44 PM
Post by: Cleybrooke on April 16, 2021, 02:45:36 PM
65k + for the first team. Around 15K for the Ladies and Academy teams.
Barcelona and Man City both have second stadia next door to the their main grounds. Why can't we? (Ignoring the small issue of having to relocate houses and business - if only we had an owner that knew something about smart cities in the past)
Build the Academy Stadium first, 1st team plays there for a year, whilst we completely redevelop Villa Park into a brand new, modern interpretation of Archibald Leitchs finest with the added functionality the Tottenham Stadium has.
Future King of England could open it again and once again we would claim..
"with pride and satisfaction, because its lay-out, its wealth of accommodation, and the organised detail of its complete equipment, go to make Villa Park the most perfect football ground in the country."
Post by: eamonn on April 16, 2021, 04:48:20 PM
Post by: AV82EC on April 16, 2021, 04:50:03 PM
Post by: Mister E on April 16, 2021, 07:02:13 PM
City's academy and ladies team stadium only holds about 5 to 6,000.City???????
You mean Citeh, presumably, based on being in Wilmslow.
There's lots of 'City' out there.
Post by: robbo1874 on April 16, 2021, 11:04:59 PM
Post by: Rico on April 18, 2021, 10:17:21 AM
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2021, 10:19:36 AM
Post by: Rico on April 18, 2021, 10:51:16 AM
Post by: olaftab on April 18, 2021, 10:54:06 AM
Post by: Rico on April 18, 2021, 11:04:21 AM
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2021, 01:02:20 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 18, 2021, 01:08:44 PM
It's just no. Not now, not ever. Villa Park is defined by the Holte and its utter awesomeness.
Agree 100% with you and Aftab. The Holte End and the Kop are the most famous ends in English football so it must remain the THE home stand at Villa Park.
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2021, 01:31:21 PM
I'd personally do a phase 1 of knocking the North down and add extra capacity with a lower tier that wraps around with the Trinity lower/middle tiers and has enclosed upper area in for tier 2 that traps noise.
I'd be adding facilities for the Witton in here so the concourse space, both upper and lower Witton, can be greatly increased. That would solve the main issues with that stand. A sort of block behind where the wrap around would be at "R" block entrance now.
Phase 2 would be to make the Holte a 22k single tier beast, with again wrap around of lower tiers and enclosed upper areas to trap noise.
You retain 4 stands, you add 17,000 to take us to 60,000, dramatically improve facilities in the Witton Lane and create one of the noisiest grounds in the country.
Post by: Des Little on April 18, 2021, 03:32:58 PM
Post by: AV82EC on April 18, 2021, 03:37:09 PM
Post by: CT on April 18, 2021, 05:25:08 PM
My word, can you just imagine being part of that?!
Post by: Des Little on April 18, 2021, 06:22:07 PM
Post by: Ad@m on April 18, 2021, 06:31:14 PM
No. The North cannot eclipse the Holte.
It would only be temporary until we rebuilt the Holte to be even bigger!!
Post by: cdbearsfan on April 18, 2021, 08:53:35 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 10, 2021, 05:52:33 PM
Looks interesting
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 10, 2021, 06:09:51 PM
Post by: LeeB on May 10, 2021, 06:11:09 PM
Sort that shitey Witton "can't buy a drink" Lane out, too.
Sort that fucker out first, thank you.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 11, 2021, 10:55:56 AM
I think realistically it's only going to be possible to do the North and the Holte, given the space constraints of the Witton Lane.This is the dream. Not sure they'd be able to wrap the lower part of the Holte with the Trinity unless they move the road though.
I'd personally do a phase 1 of knocking the North down and add extra capacity with a lower tier that wraps around with the Trinity lower/middle tiers and has enclosed upper area in for tier 2 that traps noise.
I'd be adding facilities for the Witton in here so the concourse space, both upper and lower Witton, can be greatly increased. That would solve the main issues with that stand. A sort of block behind where the wrap around would be at "R" block entrance now.
Phase 2 would be to make the Holte a 22k single tier beast, with again wrap around of lower tiers and enclosed upper areas to trap noise.
You retain 4 stands, you add 17,000 to take us to 60,000, dramatically improve facilities in the Witton Lane and create one of the noisiest grounds in the country.
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 01:50:29 AM
I think realistically it's only going to be possible to do the North and the Holte, given the space constraints of the Witton Lane.I love the idea of a single tier 22k Holte but it wouldn't be feasible. It's hemmed in now by the Trinity Rd itself which causes it to narrow from the right as you look from the pitch. It would have to follow that line to a ridiculous height and would be very narrow at the top. Unless of course the council would allow us to purchase a chunk of Aston Park and move the road over but again I really don't see that happening. We're hemmed in at that corner which gives us all sorts of issues.
I'd personally do a phase 1 of knocking the North down and add extra capacity with a lower tier that wraps around with the Trinity lower/middle tiers and has enclosed upper area in for tier 2 that traps noise.
I'd be adding facilities for the Witton in here so the concourse space, both upper and lower Witton, can be greatly increased. That would solve the main issues with that stand. A sort of block behind where the wrap around would be at "R" block entrance now.
Phase 2 would be to make the Holte a 22k single tier beast, with again wrap around of lower tiers and enclosed upper areas to trap noise.
You retain 4 stands, you add 17,000 to take us to 60,000, dramatically improve facilities in the Witton Lane and create one of the noisiest grounds in the country.
Post by: Ad@m on May 12, 2021, 04:30:10 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 12, 2021, 05:11:42 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 12, 2021, 05:12:53 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 12, 2021, 05:37:21 PM
Would using 20m or so of the park be that much of a disaster? I know there's a number of trees etc, but in the context of the size of the park, the history of Aston Villa etc and the role the club plays in the community and could play in upgrading the area, would that be too much to ask?
The park is now less than one-ninth of it's original size. We can't continue to make demands on the local community whenever we feel like it.
Post by: KevinGage on May 12, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
How feasible would it be to reconfigure the Holte into a single tier without having to bulldoze the whole lot?
Dig down rather than build up.
Like the Bernabeu and a few others, set one tier below street level.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 12, 2021, 05:51:09 PM
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 06:19:57 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
Surely you wouldn't be able to see the pitch? I'll get a ticket for that stand when we play Burnley.That's funny lol
Post by: Ad@m on May 12, 2021, 06:25:32 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.
I'm not talking about moving the road (as you said in your post). Leave the road there and put the stand on stilts over it.
It's easier said than done but isn't impossible.
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 06:51:10 PM
Yeah I know what you meant but again that's a very big ask. Walk down Trinity Rd towards the Holte try to visualise the Holte being built up and over the road. I drive that way 2/3 times a week and I've tried. It would be very difficult to do in fact I'd be amazed if they attempted it. All the available land is at the other end of the ground so I'd expect any expansion of the stadium to be happening there.We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.
I'm not talking about moving the road (as you said in your post). Leave the road there and put the stand on stilts over it.
It's easier said than done but isn't impossible.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 12, 2021, 07:01:31 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 12, 2021, 07:25:05 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.But then we're talking a brand new stadium.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 12, 2021, 07:50:07 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.But then we're talking a brand new stadium.
Basically, yeah. We're hamstrung by the current location, can't do much besides frippery with three sides as it is, the only room for real capacity increase is a big stand where the North sits now, and I get the sense there'd not be much love for something that might outshine The Holte.
Post by: Nev on May 12, 2021, 08:30:41 PM
The desire to flatten, straighten, level and square off football grounds has given us Stoke, Sunderland and Middlesbrough, and we have lost the Vetch, The Dell and the glorious hump backed Kop at Hillsborough.
Oddities are good, strange shapes are interesting, grounds should not be uniform.
Post by: LeeB on May 12, 2021, 08:35:20 PM
Post by: paul_e on May 12, 2021, 09:03:08 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.But then we're talking a brand new stadium.
Basically, yeah. We're hamstrung by the current location, can't do much besides frippery with three sides as it is, the only room for real capacity increase is a big stand where the North sits now, and I get the sense there'd not be much love for something that might outshine The Holte.
Leaving the Trinity and Holte where they are and doing what we can to replace the North (without overshadowing the Holte) and improve the DE you're looking at 50-55k, shift the pitch a little and you could possible add another 5k to that but the cost would be insane, we'd need a temporary ground for a year or 2 and nothing that is there would survive.
If you're going to do that you might as well find a new location and build a 70k+ stadium from scratch on a less restricted site, either way you piss off a huge number of fans so why not go for the one with the bigger commercial impact? If you're destroying everything anyway you don't do it for a marginal gain.
I don't think they have any intention of that though, I suspect a new North Stand, improvements to the DE and internal refits for the other 2 are as far as they'd go.
Post by: JD on May 13, 2021, 05:10:23 AM
Surely you wouldn't be able to see the pitch? I'll get a ticket for that stand when we play Burnley.
Brilliant CD, a real lol moment.
Post by: CT on May 13, 2021, 07:13:23 AM
That tapered corner is yet another feature of the ground that should be retained. It's is something unusual, something different and part of it's character.
The desire to flatten, straighten, level and square off football grounds has given us Stoke, Sunderland and Middlesbrough, and we have lost the Vetch, The Dell and the glorious hump backed Kop at Hillsborough.
Oddities are good, strange shapes are interesting, grounds should not be uniform.
Absolutely this for me too.
Post by: Ads on May 13, 2021, 07:38:18 AM
Post by: CT on May 13, 2021, 08:19:16 AM
Agreeing with Nev, I hope when it’s done, it’s done with some originality and a nod to our past, rather than starting to turn it into another bowl that looks like all the others.
As for Hillsborough, I’ve been in the Leppings before and after April 1989. It should have been bulldozed once the enquiries had finished. The visit in August 2016 for the first game of the season confirmed that the upper deck of that stand is still dangerous and I’ve no doubt is exactly the same as we speak.
Post by: Ad@m on May 13, 2021, 08:57:06 AM
Post by: Nev on May 13, 2021, 09:31:56 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on May 13, 2021, 10:01:31 AM
Post by: Drummond on May 13, 2021, 10:39:42 AM
Post by: London Villan on May 13, 2021, 11:00:53 AM
Ellend Road is also a tip as is Old Trafford.
Post by: robbo1874 on May 13, 2021, 12:52:18 PM
we could maybe just lease what we need, instead of buying it.We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 13, 2021, 01:10:58 PM
Hillsborough hasn't changed in 25 years...
Ellend Road is also a tip as is Old Trafford.
That’s another thing Man U fans are pissed off about and I don’t blame them. They’ve watched clubs around them significantly upgrade their stadiums or get new ones and theirs has in large part stayed still. For all of their immense revenue they talk a big game but still don’t compete at the very top end of the market. They might this summer after all the ESL talk to placate the fans, but give it a year or two and they current owners will go back to what they have been doing.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on May 13, 2021, 01:22:55 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 13, 2021, 01:46:41 PM
Post by: algy on May 13, 2021, 01:55:03 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.But then we're talking a brand new stadium.
Basically, yeah. We're hamstrung by the current location, can't do much besides frippery with three sides as it is, the only room for real capacity increase is a big stand where the North sits now, and I get the sense there'd not be much love for something that might outshine The Holte.
Leaving the Trinity and Holte where they are and doing what we can to replace the North (without overshadowing the Holte) and improve the DE you're looking at 50-55k, shift the pitch a little and you could possible add another 5k to that but the cost would be insane, we'd need a temporary ground for a year or 2 and nothing that is there would survive.
Is it really that bad a thing if the North Stand overshadows the Holte End? Doesn't look like Leitch or Rinder particularly paid more attention to one than the other ...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4027/4343005519_ec8b730c91_o.jpg)
I reckon just build the biggest, most impressive stand we can on each of the four sides. We want other sides to come to Villa Park and be wowed. Four stands, any one of which would be the most impressive stand at 99% of the clubs that visit. Let them know their place.
Post by: FatSam on May 13, 2021, 02:04:03 PM
I don't know much about the history of Porto's Estádio do Dragão, but from looking at a few photos, it looks like it has transitioned from four separate stands to having 'filled in the corners' in a best-of-both-worlds way.It was purpose built for Euro 2004. It hasn’t been redeveloped. I saw a game at their previous ground - the pitch had been lowered to extend the lowest tier over the running track.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 13, 2021, 02:06:00 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 13, 2021, 02:06:22 PM
I don't know much about the history of Porto's Estádio do Dragão, but from looking at a few photos, it looks like it has transitioned from four separate stands to having 'filled in the corners' in a best-of-both-worlds way.It was purpose built for Euro 2004. It hasn’t been redeveloped. I saw a game at their previous ground - the pitch had been lowered to extend the lowest tier over the running track.
Yes, just looked at its Wiki page. I was talking bollocks again.
Post by: paul_e on May 13, 2021, 03:27:06 PM
Is it really that bad a thing if the North Stand overshadows the Holte End? Doesn't look like Leitch or Rinder particularly paid more attention to one than the other ...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4027/4343005519_ec8b730c91_o.jpg)
I reckon just build the biggest, most impressive stand we can on each of the four sides. We want other sides to come to Villa Park and be wowed. Four stands, any one of which would be the most impressive stand at 99% of the clubs that visit. Let them know their place.
Over 100 years of time has passed since then and that is all part of the ground and the attraction of it. I personally wouldn't have an issue with a bigger North Stand but I suspect a lot of fans wouldn't like it because 'the roar of the holte' is part of their match day experience. This is my point really, the owners need to decide just how far to go with the balance between commercial viability and tradition and I get the impression they will be more conservative than many would expect overall.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 13, 2021, 04:02:02 PM
Post by: AV82EC on May 13, 2021, 04:03:36 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 13, 2021, 04:11:19 PM
Post by: Ad@m on May 13, 2021, 04:54:37 PM
If the people in the Holte want to make it a competition between them and those in a huge North Stand (Ron Saunders Stand, presumably) as to who can make the most noise, I can only see advantages rather than problems.
Exactly, and based on that picture above, it's what Leitch would've wanted!
Post by: Des Little on May 13, 2021, 06:22:12 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 13, 2021, 07:05:45 PM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country.
The Holte and the South Bank at Molineux were the biggest weren't they?
Post by: Axl Rose on May 14, 2021, 05:00:16 AM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country.
The Holte and the South Bank at Molineux were the biggest weren't they?
The South Bank was empty (ish) though, no? Haha
Post by: robbo1874 on May 14, 2021, 08:20:17 AM
Post by: kipeye on May 14, 2021, 08:58:31 AM
I agree with Sexual Ealing.This is no place for religion.
Post by: eamonn on May 14, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
Post by: LeeB on May 14, 2021, 12:01:11 PM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country.
The Holte and the South Bank at Molineux were the biggest weren't they?
The Holte was the biggest stand that was in the same postcode as the pitch it faced.
Post by: Villan82 on May 14, 2021, 12:14:17 PM
It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.
Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?
Post by: The Edge on May 14, 2021, 12:25:24 PM
The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.I agree with this. It's the only area of the ground with no restraints and we just have to make the most of it. A red brick exterior like the Holte is a must but I'd go bigger. Does it matter if it's bigger than the Holte? I don't think it does. Make it huge. Make it the best. Imagine a stand that could hold 18/20k? It's possible and would once again elevate Villa Park to where it should be. The very best.The Holte is iconic and always will be no matter what.
It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.
Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 14, 2021, 01:20:33 PM
The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.
It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.
Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?
I agree with this. It's the only area of the ground with no restraints and we just have to make the most of it. A red brick exterior like the Holte is a must but I'd go bigger.
Agree with this but happy for it to be just big enough to bring us to over 50k. I would also rename it The (William) McGregor Stand with his statue given pride of place so visiting fans are made well aware of his place in football history.
Post by: The Edge on May 14, 2021, 02:22:06 PM
The current North Stand holds just under 8,000. We need another 8,000 to pass the 50,000 mark so a rebuilt North Stand would have to hold around 16,000 to achieve that. It would look bloody awesome.The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.
It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.
Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?
I agree with this. It's the only area of the ground with no restraints and we just have to make the most of it. A red brick exterior like the Holte is a must but I'd go bigger.
Agree with this but happy for it to be just big enough to bring us to over 50k. I would also rename it The (William) McGregor Stand with his statue given pride of place so visiting fans are made well aware of his place in football history.
Post by: Villan82 on May 14, 2021, 03:52:41 PM
Post by: The Edge on May 14, 2021, 05:30:03 PM
The Holte loses about 750-1,000 seats because of the corner with Trinity Road. I would imagine a Holte style stand at the Witton end could easily hold 15,000?So just under the magic 50k mark? They can easily make it slightly wider to make it 16k and the jobs a good un for me.
Post by: Flin5tone on May 26, 2021, 11:36:34 AM
The seats on the front rows in the upper Tier of the DE,Trinity and North Stand have turned almost Pink , I have seen this at other grounds before (Sunderland had a big problem) and noticed some of the Handrails had missing paint. The North Stand needs to come down and the other stands need a little work on them.
Also do not like the Cazoo Advertisement plastered all over the front of the upper Tiers. Not nice to see
Post by: Clampy on May 26, 2021, 11:46:28 AM
Went to the Youth Final on Monday Evening and it felt fantastic to be back at Villa Park but one thing that I noticed was the Stadium is starting to look a bit Tired.
The seats on the front rows in the upper Tier of the DE,Trinity and North Stand have turned almost Pink , I have seen this at other grounds before (Sunderland had a big problem) and noticed some of the Handrails had missing paint. The North Stand needs to come down and the other stands need a little work on them.
Also do not like the Cazoo Advertisement plastered all over the front of the upper Tiers. Not nice to see
Still, I do hope you got to spend your vouchers.
Post by: Flin5tone on May 26, 2021, 11:50:42 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 26, 2021, 11:51:03 AM
Went to the Youth Final on Monday Evening and it felt fantastic to be back at Villa Park but one thing that I noticed was the Stadium is starting to look a bit Tired.
The seats on the front rows in the upper Tier of the DE,Trinity and North Stand have turned almost Pink , I have seen this at other grounds before (Sunderland had a big problem) and noticed some of the Handrails had missing paint. The North Stand needs to come down and the other stands need a little work on them.
It could be worse, the signs at Villa Park could have random capital letters all over the place.
I'm sure any maintenance work that needed to be done was being deferred until fans were actually coming back. Not a big issue unless you're looking for something to complain about.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 26, 2021, 12:01:07 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 26, 2021, 12:03:54 PM
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 12:25:51 PM
Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Post by: berneboy on May 26, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
I agree with Sexual Ealing.I agree with Nick
Post by: The Edge on May 26, 2021, 04:11:09 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7kRebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we don’t have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.
Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Post by: CT on May 26, 2021, 04:41:16 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7kRebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we don’t have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.
Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.
I have to say, maybe clouded in my excitement at just being back at the football, but all things considered, the ground looked fantastic.
I’m wondering now if I was stood next to a poster on here, because he was moaning through most of the game (believe it or not) and missing handrail paint would’ve been right up his street.
Post by: Pat Mustard on May 26, 2021, 05:13:09 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7kRebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we don’t have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.
Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.
I have to say, maybe clouded in my excitement at just being back at the football, but all things considered, the ground looked fantastic.
I’m wondering now if I was stood next to a poster on here, because he was moaning through most of the game (believe it or not) and missing handrail paint would’ve been right up his street.
Going back into Villa Park on Monday I also thought it looked great considering it's been empty for a year.
However, having been an advocate of keeping 4 separate stands all along, I did find a little gripe that would be addressed by filling in the corners. In the first half the sun was setting directly behind the gap in between the Trinity and North Stand, and made it really difficult to watch the game from where I was sitting. I know this is down to an unusual kick off time at an unusual time of year to be playing, but it's not something I've ever noticed in the Lower Holte before - as and when they do rebuild the North then it would at least stop this.
Post by: rjp on May 26, 2021, 05:38:02 PM
I'd like the Holte to remain the biggest, most imposing stand of the 4 but it'll always be limited by where it is. What about moving the Holte to where the North Stand is now and having a South Stand instead?
Sacrilege? Probably. It would give us lots of options though.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 26, 2021, 05:40:08 PM
Post by: Rico on May 26, 2021, 05:50:45 PM
Post by: Broadlee on May 26, 2021, 06:06:33 PM
Would it be fitting or are there more worthy candidates from our proud history lineage?
Post by: olaftab on May 26, 2021, 06:06:42 PM
If you moved it to the other end of the ground, it wouldn't be The Holte End. Unless you moved the pub, too.It will be Nelson end.
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:10:12 PM
When the new Holte was built I don’t think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road. So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k. Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 26, 2021, 07:11:37 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 26, 2021, 07:15:50 PM
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:17:05 PM
Post by: The Edge on May 26, 2021, 07:19:17 PM
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldn’t be right.No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
When the new Holte was built I don’t think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road. So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k. Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 26, 2021, 07:19:48 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 26, 2021, 07:22:35 PM
Post by: nigel on May 26, 2021, 07:27:33 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7kRebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we don’t have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.
Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.
I have to say, maybe clouded in my excitement at just being back at the football, but all things considered, the ground looked fantastic.
I’m wondering now if I was stood next to a poster on here, because he was moaning through most of the game (believe it or not) and missing handrail paint would’ve been right up his street.
Would that be the ZZ Top? 😉
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:27:51 PM
Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldn’t be right.No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
When the new Holte was built I don’t think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road. So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k. Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 26, 2021, 07:29:18 PM
The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.
Agree with that, on Monday night I was thinking how nice it looked. It's the last thing we should be looking at changing.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 26, 2021, 07:31:23 PM
Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.
Quite a few felt theirs were when TSM was here.
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:31:42 PM
Think what 20k would look like and sound like.The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.
Agree with that, on Monday night I was thinking how nice it looked. It's the last thing we should be looking at changing.
Post by: chrisw1 on May 26, 2021, 08:06:49 PM
It would be brilliant, but as others said it's just a very low priority at the moment.Think what 20k would look like and sound like.The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.
Agree with that, on Monday night I was thinking how nice it looked. It's the last thing we should be looking at changing.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 26, 2021, 09:44:41 PM
Build massive Witton Lane and North Stands and have prices that encourage a sufficient number of noisy riff raff to buy season tickets there before we start thinking of demolishing the Holte.
Post by: robbo1874 on May 27, 2021, 02:17:39 AM
If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.
Post by: Ad@m on May 27, 2021, 09:12:15 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 27, 2021, 09:28:09 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. It’s nice having 4 separate stands, but it’s a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and it’s job done.
If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.
You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.
Post by: Des Little on May 27, 2021, 09:51:02 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 27, 2021, 10:24:03 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. It’s nice having 4 separate stands, but it’s a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and it’s job done.
If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.
You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.
you don't think they would let them go over the road Dave ?
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 27, 2021, 10:59:34 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. It’s nice having 4 separate stands, but it’s a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and it’s job done.
If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.
You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.
you don't think they would let them go over the road Dave ?
Into where? There's green space on the other side of the road then rows of houses that would be overlooked
Post by: Nev on May 27, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
While we have capacity behind the North Stand, that should really be the area of focus when we look to redevelopment but I'm always wary of whether or not we need any more than another 5/10k seats unless we have an unprecedented run of success and for old cynics like me, that seems fanciful.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 27, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
Liverpool bought out a lot of the housing around their main stand to extend it but from memory it wasn't a very pleasant process and damaged relations between the club and the community.
While we have capacity behind the North Stand, that should really be the area of focus when we look to redevelopment but I'm always wary of whether or not we need any more than another 5/10k seats unless we have an unprecedented run of success and for old cynics like me, that seems fanciful.
I think Witton Lane needs more space for facilities than anything else , but not sure how viable that is
Post by: Nev on May 27, 2021, 11:23:04 AM
Liverpool bought out a lot of the housing around their main stand to extend it but from memory it wasn't a very pleasant process and damaged relations between the club and the community.
While we have capacity behind the North Stand, that should really be the area of focus when we look to redevelopment but I'm always wary of whether or not we need any more than another 5/10k seats unless we have an unprecedented run of success and for old cynics like me, that seems fanciful.
I think Witton Lane needs more space for facilities than anything else , but not sure how viable that is
That is the biggest complaint levelled at that particular structure (apart form the name of course) and without extension it hard to see what can be done unless you impinge on the corporate areas which is highly unlikely.
Post by: cannock villa on May 27, 2021, 12:08:53 PM
Post by: Villa Lew on May 27, 2021, 07:22:08 PM
Post by: Richard on May 27, 2021, 10:13:12 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 27, 2021, 10:17:56 PM
Nothing less than 50k it's not worth doing otherwise.
I'd go further and say 51,000 so you can aspire to having over 50,000 every game. Nice round number. Attendance just under 50,000 seems wrong. Certainly there is no point in redeveloping to 48k.
I do think they'll wait and see whether people want to come back in such numbers post-Covid before making any commitment to expansion, and can't really blame them if they do.
Post by: TonyD on May 27, 2021, 10:26:49 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 27, 2021, 10:39:23 PM
Post by: London Villan on May 27, 2021, 10:42:29 PM
Post by: robbo1874 on May 27, 2021, 10:46:47 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/kKG8xwR/7-ED6-A06-F-C447-4-B5-C-956-D-41-CBE0-D4-DA10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKG8xwR)
Post by: London Villan on May 28, 2021, 06:52:35 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/LS2zZHP/BDC1-F79-A-26-AE-490-A-A155-9-BDB7-DB8533-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS2zZHP)
(https://i.ibb.co/pbDthK4/B8-E64899-9-B6-C-4-A98-AC9-E-43-A3379-E5-E1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbDthK4)
(https://i.ibb.co/4mk21gK/3-D3-DCBDB-CB56-47-BA-A5-EA-2941-D1-ABA6-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mk21gK)
(https://i.ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn/FC88-F856-1-A48-4289-B983-1-D1830678-A5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn)
(https://i.ibb.co/1GPLVRV/AF0-F791-B-C8-DF-467-A-AB14-5-FA821670-E73.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GPLVRV)
Post by: London Villan on May 28, 2021, 06:55:16 AM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 28, 2021, 09:43:58 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 11:40:18 AM
Although it looks a bit lopsided, the Lerner plans do make some sense, although I'd prefer to see a better connection to the Witton stand if we go for the horeseshoe solution.
Post by: eamonn on May 28, 2021, 01:31:50 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?50,734 according to those images
Post by: aev on May 28, 2021, 01:38:09 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?50,734 according to those images
Where are these plans/images?
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 01:53:58 PM
In the post aboveWhat was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?50,734 according to those images
Where are these plans/images?
Post by: Ger Regan on May 28, 2021, 02:03:21 PM
As oithers have said, north stand should be the first priority. You could probably squeeze a few more rows out of the witton lane by extending to the back of the footpath, it's unlikely that the overlooking would be any worse than currently experienced. That said, the benefit in terms of additional capacity would unlikely be worth the cost of doing so.The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. It’s nice having 4 separate stands, but it’s a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and it’s job done.
If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.
You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.
you don't think they would let them go over the road Dave ?
Into where? There's green space on the other side of the road then rows of houses that would be overlooked
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 28, 2021, 02:16:48 PM
Post by: aev on May 28, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
In the post aboveWhat was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?50,734 according to those images
Where are these plans/images?
I've been censored - I cant see anything!
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 28, 2021, 02:55:36 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 02:57:09 PM
London Villans post above has 5 images attached to it.In the post aboveWhat was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?50,734 according to those images
Where are these plans/images?
I've been censored - I cant see anything!
Post by: aev on May 28, 2021, 03:19:26 PM
Outrageous.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 28, 2021, 03:28:18 PM
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.
I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
Post by: Des Little on May 28, 2021, 03:30:46 PM
Post by: Smirker on May 28, 2021, 04:12:53 PM
Ive posted these before, but they were the more detailed plans under Lerner.
(https://i.ibb.co/LS2zZHP/BDC1-F79-A-26-AE-490-A-A155-9-BDB7-DB8533-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS2zZHP)
(https://i.ibb.co/pbDthK4/B8-E64899-9-B6-C-4-A98-AC9-E-43-A3379-E5-E1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbDthK4)
(https://i.ibb.co/4mk21gK/3-D3-DCBDB-CB56-47-BA-A5-EA-2941-D1-ABA6-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mk21gK)
(https://i.ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn/FC88-F856-1-A48-4289-B983-1-D1830678-A5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn)
(https://i.ibb.co/1GPLVRV/AF0-F791-B-C8-DF-467-A-AB14-5-FA821670-E73.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GPLVRV)
Looks better than I expected tbh.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on May 28, 2021, 06:46:31 PM
The Lower Holte would be ideal. Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere. Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used. Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand.
Post by: Ad@m on May 28, 2021, 07:35:57 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?
The Lower Holte would be ideal. Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere. Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used. Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand.
Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 28, 2021, 07:37:18 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 28, 2021, 07:45:35 PM
Post by: robbo1874 on May 29, 2021, 12:04:50 AM
im surprised a stand-alone stand option 3 seems to be the best value option. $16m cheaper than option 1 with only about 700 less seats.Ive posted these before, but they were the more detailed plans under Lerner.
(https://i.ibb.co/LS2zZHP/BDC1-F79-A-26-AE-490-A-A155-9-BDB7-DB8533-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS2zZHP)
(https://i.ibb.co/pbDthK4/B8-E64899-9-B6-C-4-A98-AC9-E-43-A3379-E5-E1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbDthK4)
(https://i.ibb.co/4mk21gK/3-D3-DCBDB-CB56-47-BA-A5-EA-2941-D1-ABA6-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mk21gK)
(https://i.ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn/FC88-F856-1-A48-4289-B983-1-D1830678-A5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn)
(https://i.ibb.co/1GPLVRV/AF0-F791-B-C8-DF-467-A-AB14-5-FA821670-E73.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GPLVRV)
Looks better than I expected tbh.
re there any images available of it?
The images of options 1 & 2 look great
Post by: The Edge on May 29, 2021, 12:21:04 PM
The corners are definitely added to the capacity of the yellow wall. At a guess I'd say the corners add about 7/8,000 between them . Much like the old Kop at Liverpool. It held 28,000 officially but it wrapped right round both sides of the ground so for me it wasn't a true figure of an "end" like the Holte End was. First time I saw the Kop for myself I was shocked how small it was compared to our Holte End.Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldn’t be right.No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
When the new Holte was built I don’t think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road. So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k. Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full.
Post by: DB on May 29, 2021, 12:56:08 PM
Post by: TonyD on May 29, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
Yeah, that slice into the Holte from the road intrusion needs to be corrected, maybe it’s a touch of OCD but it does bug me.If they can build over the road this slice could be turned 180 and so getting slightly bigger at the top. Do this on the Witton Land side and you could get a huge single tier. Build it and they will come.
Post by: john e on May 30, 2021, 01:32:27 PM
The corners are definitely added to the capacity of the yellow wall. At a guess I'd say the corners add about 7/8,000 between them . Much like the old Kop at Liverpool. It held 28,000 officially but it wrapped right round both sides of the ground so for me it wasn't a true figure of an "end" like the Holte End was. First time I saw the Kop for myself I was shocked how small it was compared to our Holte End.Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldn’t be right.No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
When the new Holte was built I don’t think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road. So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k. Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full.
Yeah same for me
76/77 first time I saw the Kop and Stretford end for that matter
Proper piss pooling stands compared to the Holte
Post by: chrisw1 on June 01, 2021, 01:02:42 PM
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?
The Lower Holte would be ideal. Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere. Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used. Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand.
Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
Post by: FatSam on June 01, 2021, 03:58:23 PM
Me too.Max capacity with that plan 50,734.
I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
It's interesting to see these options because they haven't been made public as far as I'm aware. It looks like a relatively crude optioneering process from a design perspective, but the comparative costs and capacities obviously have some science behind them.
The idea of trying to shoehorn a bowl-like stadium onto the current site worries me a lot - it would be fighting against the innate character of the ground. I think that the CGI of this option looks like a poor man's St James Park, which would be an intense disappointment. It also assumes that the new Trinity Road stand is the best template for a future north stand, which I'm not sure it is. I'm sceptical about the idea that Doug's penny-pinching approach to ground redevelopment has left no room for improvement. Much better to celebrate that Villa Park has, since losing the cycle track, and Leitch's interventions, been a four-sided football ground. It's worth remembering that a constituent of West Ham and even Arsenal supporters to a lesser extent, regret losing the character and identity of their previous grounds.
I would argue that Liverpool's plans for the Anfield Road End, which have been delayed by Covid, offer a better direction. This two-tier stand will have a 16k capacity - higher than the Kop. The same footprint would fit on the space available at the Witton End at VP, and would increase the total capacity to approx 53k. It could provide better family, corporate and away facilities, and allow for subsequent redevelopment of the Witton Lane.
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 04:51:54 PM
I agree with all of this and I believe it's the way to go. There's plenty of land behind the stadium to add a "Box Park" at Wembley type of entertainment venue. The new Brookvale academy development could solve any parking issues which could be utilised on matchdays with a ferrying system for the short trip to the ground. And one more thing: while they're at it I'd love them to sort out the messy corner between the Lower Witton Lane and the Lower Holte where we lose a few hundred seats. Mr penny pincher left his mark there. With some modern engineering it shouldn't be too difficult to resolve.Me too.Max capacity with that plan 50,734.
I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
It's interesting to see these options because they haven't been made public as far as I'm aware. It looks like a relatively crude optioneering process from a design perspective, but the comparative costs and capacities obviously have some science behind them.
The idea of trying to shoehorn a bowl-like stadium onto the current site worries me a lot - it would be fighting against the innate character of the ground. I think that the CGI of this option looks like a poor man's St James Park, which would be an intense disappointment. It also assumes that the new Trinity Road stand is the best template for a future north stand, which I'm not sure it is. I'm sceptical about the idea that Doug's penny-pinching approach to ground redevelopment has left no room for improvement. Much better to celebrate that Villa Park has, since losing the cycle track, and Leitch's interventions, been a four-sided football ground. It's worth remembering that a constituent of West Ham and even Arsenal supporters to a lesser extent, regret losing the character and identity of their previous grounds.
I would argue that Liverpool's plans for the Anfield Road End, which have been delayed by Covid, offer a better direction. This two-tier stand will have a 16k capacity - higher than the Kop. The same footprint would fit on the space available at the Witton End at VP, and would increase the total capacity to approx 53k. It could provide better family, corporate and away facilities, and allow for subsequent redevelopment of the Witton Lane.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 01, 2021, 05:11:37 PM
Post by: eamonn on June 01, 2021, 05:13:39 PM
Post by: Des Little on June 01, 2021, 05:16:01 PM
Post by: FatSam on June 01, 2021, 05:38:09 PM
im surprised a stand-alone stand option 3 seems to be the best value option. $16m cheaper than option 1 with only about 700 less seats.
re there any images available of it?
The images of options 1 & 2 look great
Options 2 and 3 involve demolishing part of the current Trinity Road Stand, so Option 1 involves building more seats to reach a similar capacity to Option 3. This is why the build costs are higher.
Options 1 and 2 seem to accommodate more hospitality, which brings higher revenue, but I can't believe that wouldn't be possible with a variation on Option 3. For a start off, I'd suggest a standalone should aim to be c. 2.5k seats larger than they have indicated (to achieve a similar capacity to the proposed Anfield Road End). I'm also not completely convinced that the bowl corner in Options 2 and 3, which reduces the separation from the houses to the south, would be acceptable. The view of the sky from these properties would be further reduced.
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 06:32:20 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 01, 2021, 06:45:37 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now. I think there’s also a uni campus there too.
Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now. I think there’s also a uni campus there too.
Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Post by: Ad@m on June 01, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?
The Lower Holte would be ideal. Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere. Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used. Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand.
Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 01, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 01, 2021, 07:20:55 PM
What if there's already enough to cope with a higher capacity? I'm not saying there is, but surely an analysis has to be done?But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?
The Lower Holte would be ideal. Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere. Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used. Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand.
Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
Post by: algy on June 01, 2021, 07:24:54 PM
Because people don't generally visit Wembley every week, and when they do it's a bit of an event.Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
Post by: London Villan on June 01, 2021, 07:28:09 PM
Post by: Ad@m on June 01, 2021, 08:42:53 PM
What if there's already enough to cope with a higher capacity? I'm not saying there is, but surely an analysis has to be done?But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?
The Lower Holte would be ideal. Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere. Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used. Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand.
Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
I just don't see why we would've designed the Holte as an all-seater stand, in an era where standing had been fairly recently outlawed, but with the safety standards required for a terrace of a much higher capacity.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 01, 2021, 08:50:08 PM
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now. I think there’s also a uni campus there too.
Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
19 days of the year?
That's not a revenue stream.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 01, 2021, 08:52:41 PM
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 09:04:54 PM
All the corporate is only 19 days a year. Is that not a revenue stream then?Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now. I think there’s also a uni campus there too.
Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
19 days of the year?
That's not a revenue stream.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 01, 2021, 09:09:38 PM
All the corporate is only 19 days a year. Is that not a revenue stream then?Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now. I think there’s also a uni campus there too.
Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
19 days of the year?
That's not a revenue stream.
Yes, it is, but it's an existing function inside the stadium itself. It doesn't require any further investment.
Also, re the earlier post, Wembley will be used way more often, by way more people, than Villa Park is. Not even close.
Two enormous concert venues - the Arena and the Stadium - for a start. Then the massive conferencing venues around it, the residential flats, all of that.
Villa Park has no footfall or commercial activity outside match days.
re numbers: In the last 'normal' year, Wembley Stadium hosted 38 shows, 855,809 tickets sold. That's just concerts at the stadium.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 01, 2021, 09:10:46 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 01, 2021, 09:20:13 PM
Has there been anything to suggest that 'safe standing' might be a goer in the UK any time soon? Given recent events at citeh and spurs, I'd think not.
What recent events?
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 01, 2021, 09:33:59 PM
Has there been anything to suggest that 'safe standing' might be a goer in the UK any time soon? Given recent events at citeh and spurs, I'd think not.
What recent events?
At club level, citeh have reduced the number of seats in their ground in favour of advertising, and similarly spurs fucked their fans off upstairs when they were allowed back in instead of letting them in where advertising held greater sway pitchside. If it becomes a commercial decision, it ain't happening.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 01, 2021, 09:39:40 PM
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 10:15:37 PM
Don't look like I'm winning this one. Oh well probably just a pipe dream. Maybe we can have a beer tent and a few burger vans .All the corporate is only 19 days a year. Is that not a revenue stream then?Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue? No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season. A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location. A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
It’s surrounded by huge resi towers now. I think there’s also a uni campus there too.
Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
19 days of the year?
That's not a revenue stream.
Yes, it is, but it's an existing function inside the stadium itself. It doesn't require any further investment.
Also, re the earlier post, Wembley will be used way more often, by way more people, than Villa Park is. Not even close.
Two enormous concert venues - the Arena and the Stadium - for a start. Then the massive conferencing venues around it, the residential flats, all of that.
Villa Park has no footfall or commercial activity outside match days.
re numbers: In the last 'normal' year, Wembley Stadium hosted 38 shows, 855,809 tickets sold. That's just concerts at the stadium.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 02, 2021, 11:15:28 AM
However, the club could do in-house catering or, as suggested earlier mobiile food vendors but with a better covered seated area. The key thing for me would be to include a few bars and seating under cover - those semi permanent big top type canopies or that type of thing. But even if they do, with our weather I'm not sure if that will be enough to drag people there early to spend money or not.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 15, 2021, 05:27:46 PM
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/12333093/liverpool-given-green-light-to-increase-anfield-capacity-to-61-000
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/uk-sports/2020/02/12/liverpool-hope-to-launch-anfield-road-redevelopment-by-end-of-2020/
They're also trialling rail seating.
Post by: eamonn on June 15, 2021, 09:09:20 PM
Post by: mr underhill on June 16, 2021, 08:38:28 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 16, 2021, 09:07:52 AM
is there a case for a 'cheap' option to increase capacity as the ground currently stands to mitigate the risk of huge infrastructure investment?
I suppose the cheapest option to significantly increase capacity is rebuilding the North Stand and leaving everything else alone.
Personally I hope they spend hundreds of millions making the ground the best in the world, as befits the club that plays there.
Post by: Demitri_C on June 16, 2021, 09:43:37 AM
Post by: Ads on June 16, 2021, 09:44:05 AM
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 16, 2021, 09:48:24 AM
Good, Elland Road is an absolute toilet.
It's basically St Andrews with an extra tier on one of the stands.
Post by: Ad@m on June 16, 2021, 10:11:33 AM
We need to get cracking with Villa Park though or we'll get left behind. I don't want it done on the cheap though - that's how we ended up with the Trinity where once stood one of the most beautiful stands on the planet.
Post by: in exile on June 16, 2021, 10:35:08 AM
...I don't want it done on the cheap though - that's how we ended up with the Trinity where once stood one of the most beautiful stands on the planet.Couldn't agree more.
Post by: john e on June 16, 2021, 10:35:54 AM
I suppose it’s hark back to the past
I don’t really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets don’t really bother me to be honest
Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways
I realise I’m probably in the minority
Post by: Drummond on June 16, 2021, 10:41:36 AM
Post by: john e on June 16, 2021, 11:04:24 AM
I agree John. I really enjoyed Barnsley for the location as much as anything, down some terraced backstreets.
Same,
went to Oakwell when we were down there and thought it was a proper ground enjoyed the visit but not the football
Post by: Villan82 on June 16, 2021, 11:11:28 AM
The North Stand simply needs addressing. I think I said earlier in the thread that, aside from the capacity aspect, the facilities in that end are dreadful and have been for some time. It always feels a bit cramped and unsafe in there.
Post by: robbo1874 on June 16, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 16, 2021, 11:21:34 AM
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.
Post by: Ads on June 16, 2021, 11:23:08 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 16, 2021, 11:26:26 AM
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
Plus LeeB and Brian Green.
Post by: LeeB on June 16, 2021, 11:30:10 AM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
Post by: Ads on June 16, 2021, 11:35:50 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 16, 2021, 11:37:47 AM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose it’s hark back to the past
I don’t really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets don’t really bother me to be honest
Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways
I realise I’m probably in the minority
I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.
Post by: mr underhill on June 16, 2021, 11:49:00 AM
Post by: The Edge on June 16, 2021, 01:03:33 PM
The North Stand and the Witton Lane are equally poor imo. Them two need addressing first. We are being left behind stadium wise just look at some of the club grounds in the Euros. We really do need to do something impressive if we are going to he taken seriously as a European force. I'd like to think the owners are aware of this but of course it's a balancing act of trying to upgrade the team and the Stadium at the same time.I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
Post by: Ad@m on June 16, 2021, 01:06:29 PM
it's a balancing act of trying to upgrade the team and the Stadium at the same time.
Not if you're gazillionaires like our owners are - spending on the players is capped by FFP rules, but I'm pretty sure infrastructure spending is unrestricted.
Post by: Axl Rose on June 16, 2021, 01:10:17 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable. It's got the potential to be absolutely amazing when redeveloped. The Witton is the worst though.
Post by: Ad@m on June 16, 2021, 01:12:12 PM
Post by: paul_e on June 16, 2021, 01:14:54 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 16, 2021, 01:15:30 PM
A big North Stand, similar to Liverpools proposed Anfield Road Stand is probably the best we can hope for in the medium term, with the filling of corners in the lower tiers only.
Post by: eamonn on June 16, 2021, 01:31:29 PM
No wonder we often had bad reviews of our games by the London press. Nowt to do with regularly getting beat by the scab-six obvs...
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 16, 2021, 01:31:48 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable.
It’s bigger than that surely?
Post by: LeeB on June 16, 2021, 01:33:18 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 16, 2021, 01:38:17 PM
i am always doing that
Jesus, I fucked those quotes up good and proper.
Post by: eamonn on June 16, 2021, 01:38:40 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/6HNkcy3/61-Vrz-FK88u-L-SX427-BO1-204-203-200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6HNkcy3)
Aerial shots of football grounds are my fave, though, where you can see how they fit into their surroundings.
I think there's a channel on youtube of a drone flying over various football stadiums, great idea.
Post by: paul_e on June 16, 2021, 02:23:27 PM
Can't believe the gantry, press and media used to be in the Doug. Did they all used to kick-off about how shit and cramped it was?
No wonder we often had bad reviews of our games by the London press. Nowt to do with regularly getting beat by the scab-six obvs...
Not long after it opened my friend and his dad had season tickets on the back row of the upper tier along with a few relatives and I went with them a few times. At one evening game we'd arrived pretty early and there were a couple of guys doing something to one of the cameras and one of them said something along the lines of it being the newest stand that was totally unfit for purpose.
Post by: Axl Rose on June 16, 2021, 02:32:01 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable.
It’s bigger than that surely?
That's made me chuckle, mate! Cheers!
Post by: Drummond on June 16, 2021, 02:50:16 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose it’s hark back to the past
I don’t really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets don’t really bother me to be honest
Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways
I realise I’m probably in the minority
I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.
I tell you what though. I go past Bramall Lane a few times a week, and from the outside of the South Stand and Kop (the bits you don't really see as an away fan) it looks really dated and you wonder how, with the Kop anyway, how the thing is still there. And the facilities for home fans are truly appalling, in comparison with the away fans at Bramall Lane, never mind our ground. The home fans have to go outside to a hatch to get what they want and have a wander across the outside uncovered concourse for a piss.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 16, 2021, 03:03:26 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.
I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.
Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable.
It’s bigger than that surely?
That's made me chuckle, mate! Cheers!
*wink*
Post by: eamonn on June 16, 2021, 03:11:31 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose it’s hark back to the past
I don’t really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets don’t really bother me to be honest
Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways
I realise I’m probably in the minority
I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.
I tell you what though. I go past Bramall Lane a few times a week, and from the outside of the South Stand and Kop (the bits you don't really see as an away fan) it looks really dated and you wonder how, with the Kop anyway, how the thing is still there. And the facilities for home fans are truly appalling, in comparison with the away fans at Bramall Lane, never mind our ground. The home fans have to go outside to a hatch to get what they want and have a wander across the outside uncovered concourse for a piss.
Jesus....grim oop north or what?
Nah, I love Sheff. Great place.
Post by: Stu82 on June 16, 2021, 04:01:03 PM
Way back when the Holte was being redeveloped, if I was working in Brum, I would visit Villa Park for a look at the build. I would park in North stand car park and they used to leave the gate at the north stand open so you could stand, on the lower section and gaze upon the building work, and take in the special feeling of being one of few there.
One sunny day I was standing when an old chap stood next to me and had a chat. He was dressed as old people used to dress, suit waistcoat and tie on and in his 70’s
We reminisced about the Holte end, and then he said how his father used to call the (old) Trinity road stand built in 1924 the new stand, and said it was the stand that set us apart from the other clubs. He told me his Dad said to him, “Sunderland may be winning the league and be the best football team, but Aston Villa are the aristocrats of football, and don’t you forget it”. Kind of made me feel so proud to be a Villa fan.
Then we knocked it all down!
Post by: The Edge on June 16, 2021, 04:05:40 PM
Anyone got this? Looks lovely.Cheers I'll have a look for that. I'm a bit of a football stadia nerd tbh.
(https://i.ibb.co/6HNkcy3/61-Vrz-FK88u-L-SX427-BO1-204-203-200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6HNkcy3)
Aerial shots of football grounds are my fave, though, where you can see how they fit into their surroundings.
I think there's a channel on youtube of a drone flying over various football stadiums, great idea.
Post by: CT on June 16, 2021, 04:48:51 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose it’s hark back to the past
I don’t really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets don’t really bother me to be honest
Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways
I realise I’m probably in the minority
I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.
Small Heath’s wasn’t built to last though! But yes, absolutely agree.
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 18, 2021, 01:38:54 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose it’s hark back to the past
I don’t really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets don’t really bother me to be honest
Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways
I realise I’m probably in the minority
I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.
I tell you what though. I go past Bramall Lane a few times a week, and from the outside of the South Stand and Kop (the bits you don't really see as an away fan) it looks really dated and you wonder how, with the Kop anyway, how the thing is still there. And the facilities for home fans are truly appalling, in comparison with the away fans at Bramall Lane, never mind our ground. The home fans have to go outside to a hatch to get what they want and have a wander across the outside uncovered concourse for a piss.
Isn't the Kop build on stilts aswell?
That said I love grounds you can wander to 5 minutes from city centre and inside the view from away end in upper or lower tier is very good, proper right on top of the action so imo miles better than Hillsborough.
Post by: john e on June 18, 2021, 02:03:59 PM
A lot more beautiful than the game if I remember rightly
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 18, 2021, 02:04:47 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 18, 2021, 02:06:06 PM
I always end up watching the river when I go to Fulham away. Possibly because we are nearly always shit there.
They're building a bigger stand there now, so good chance no river view :-(
I agree, it's great to watch people rowing up and down the Thames whilst we're getting owned by Fulham.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 18, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
Post by: Duncan Shaw on June 18, 2021, 02:31:43 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 18, 2021, 02:42:42 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.In fairness, it is a terrific looking stand, and enhances the view from the river.
https://www.fulhamfc.com/riverside-development/
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 18, 2021, 02:43:59 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.In fairness, it is a terrific looking stand, and enhances the view from the river.
https://www.fulhamfc.com/riverside-development/
But I will still be upset if they don't reinstate the Neutral end.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 18, 2021, 02:53:21 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.In fairness, it is a terrific looking stand, and enhances the view from the river.
https://www.fulhamfc.com/riverside-development/
But I will still be upset if they don't reinstate the Neutral end.
If they needed a neutral section in the old ground, they'll certainly need one in the souped up version!
Post by: Simon Page on June 18, 2021, 02:55:23 PM
Post by: Ads on June 18, 2021, 03:01:58 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 18, 2021, 03:13:57 PM
Post by: stevo_st on April 27, 2022, 05:50:28 PM
Punchy 2 year programme, heading for 50k starting with the North Stand
Post by: algy on April 29, 2022, 08:08:00 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIqYWgHXIAgnYrq?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Post by: Drummond on April 29, 2022, 12:42:15 PM
Post by: trinityoap on April 29, 2022, 12:53:29 PM
Post by: exigo on April 29, 2022, 01:51:19 PM
Wasn't sure where to post this, but the earliest known image of Villa Park
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIqYWgHXIAgnYrq?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Would suggest this one is slightly earlier. From 1904. Can't even remember where I got the black and white original, but I colourised it.
(https://i.ibb.co/g6D7PRJ/IMG-20220410-WA0005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6D7PRJ)
Post by: brian green on April 29, 2022, 02:32:53 PM
Post by: Broadlee on April 29, 2022, 02:46:22 PM
Wasn't sure where to post this, but the earliest known image of Villa Park
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIqYWgHXIAgnYrq?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Would suggest this one is slightly earlier. From 1904. Can't even remember where I got the black and white original, but I colourised it.
(https://i.ibb.co/g6D7PRJ/IMG-20220410-WA0005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6D7PRJ)
That's pretty sever having guillotine on the pitch for players having a bad game!!
Post by: Border villan on April 29, 2022, 03:41:19 PM
That's not me on the Holte End it's my brother. At that time I was otherwise engaged sticking it to the Boers at Rourke's Drift.
If you were fighting the Boers at Rourkes Drift then you were on your own Brian. Everyone else there was fighting the Zulus (the real ones).
Post by: Woofles The Wonder Dog on April 29, 2022, 04:01:37 PM
Post by: Ad@m on April 29, 2022, 04:01:58 PM
That's pretty sever having guillotine on the pitch for players having a bad game!!Wasn't sure where to post this, but the earliest known image of Villa Park
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIqYWgHXIAgnYrq?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Would suggest this one is slightly earlier. From 1904. Can't even remember where I got the black and white original, but I colourised it.
(https://i.ibb.co/g6D7PRJ/IMG-20220410-WA0005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g6D7PRJ)
But it would go some way to explain why the year we went down the players ran around like headless chickens.
Post by: Ads on April 29, 2022, 04:15:04 PM
Retains four distinct stands and fills in the corners to maximise space. I had a look on their website and they're creating 1800 seats that give access to premium bars. I noticed on the survey we got sent the other day that some of the questions related to things like this.
Post by: eamonn on April 29, 2022, 06:07:47 PM
Post by: AV82EC on April 29, 2022, 06:26:31 PM
Urban dictionary version - vinegar strokes mate…
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 11, 2022, 08:37:51 PM
Anyway, I knew we had the decals listing our major honours above where the players go out as you see it on TV. What I didn't realise is that also they have the European Cup, FA Cup and old First Division trophies on display on the left of the tunnel.
Post by: cdbearsfan on May 12, 2022, 11:03:21 PM
Post by: Flamingo Lane on June 08, 2022, 07:38:06 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 08, 2022, 07:41:19 PM
I have read that Villa Park may be due to host one or even possibly two Bruce Springsteen concerts, round about this time next year. Bearing in mind the redevelopment plans for the ground, and the transport problems we are all very aware of, it would be interesting to see the capacity that might be set for the events, and the transport plan that might be put in place to get people to, and most significantly away from, Villa Park on the night(s).
There would be trains. Lots of trains. More trains than you could ever imagine. There's never a problem finding trains for gigs.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 08, 2022, 08:09:23 PM
I have read that Villa Park may be due to host one or even possibly two Bruce Springsteen concerts, round about this time next year.
NSWE really are intent on bringing the Glory Days back to Villa Park.
Post by: BC Villain on June 08, 2022, 08:25:01 PM
I have read that Villa Park may be due to host one or even possibly two Bruce Springsteen concerts, round about this time next year. Bearing in mind the redevelopment plans for the ground, and the transport problems we are all very aware of, it would be interesting to see the capacity that might be set for the events, and the transport plan that might be put in place to get people to, and most significantly away from, Villa Park on the night(s).
Will Bruce be bringing the special effects that went down so well with the locals in 1988?
Post by: exigo on June 08, 2022, 08:35:38 PM
I have read that Villa Park may be due to host one or even possibly two Bruce Springsteen concerts, round about this time next year. Bearing in mind the redevelopment plans for the ground, and the transport problems we are all very aware of, it would be interesting to see the capacity that might be set for the events, and the transport plan that might be put in place to get people to, and most significantly away from, Villa Park on the night(s).
Easier to maximise the capacity when you can stick the stage where the North Stand used to be, rather than on the pitch.
Post by: Smirker on June 08, 2022, 08:56:03 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on June 08, 2022, 09:09:03 PM
Anyone think the announcement of the plans is taking the piss a bit now? When is it coming?I expect there are a lot of i's to dot and t's to cross before they can make an announcement. Maybe we need a thread/poll on when the plans will become public.
Post by: Steve67 on June 08, 2022, 09:13:52 PM
Anyone think the announcement of the plans is taking the piss a bit now? When is it coming?
No.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 08, 2022, 09:47:26 PM
Anyone think the announcement of the plans is taking the piss a bit now? When is it coming?
No, delayed so Louzie0 can wrap up her GTC 2024 contest. Gotta respect that!
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 08, 2022, 09:49:24 PM
Post by: Nev on June 09, 2022, 10:29:37 AM
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 09, 2022, 10:47:49 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 09, 2022, 10:48:22 AM
Did the Foo fighters gig get cancelled in the end?Yes, unfortunately. I was loomking forward to that.
Post by: eamonn on June 09, 2022, 11:07:26 AM
Post by: darren woolley on June 09, 2022, 11:33:50 AM
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 09, 2022, 11:53:21 AM
In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 09, 2022, 12:11:55 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.
I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 09, 2022, 12:13:33 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
Planet Darren; it was only a matter of time. Welcome to Woolley World.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 09, 2022, 05:25:11 PM
I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Post by: LeeB on June 09, 2022, 05:32:22 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 09, 2022, 05:48:28 PM
I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
I didn't really, until I saw him live (at Villa Park).
Post by: chrisw1 on June 09, 2022, 05:56:33 PM
Thing is putting on these gigs for the club is easy money.I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 09, 2022, 06:02:03 PM
Me either
Nor me. Bryan Adams with good PR.
Post by: LeeB on June 09, 2022, 07:51:25 PM
Me either
Nor me. Bryan Adams with good PR.
And a better complexion.
Post by: UK Redsox on June 09, 2022, 08:02:28 PM
I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Me as well.
An artist that I think I should really like, but he’s just ok. Not great, just ok.
Same goes for the Rolling Stones.
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 09, 2022, 08:14:00 PM
But other than a few songs that are decent, not many of his songs stans out.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 09, 2022, 09:28:00 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5eKxyR2py1E
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 09, 2022, 09:47:29 PM
I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Me as well.
An artist that I think I should really like, but he’s just ok. Not great, just ok.
Same goes for the Rolling Stones.
Comparing Bruce Springsteen to the Rolling Stones is like comparing TPOLAAPOC to Fawlty Towers.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 09, 2022, 09:49:47 PM
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Me as well.
An artist that I think I should really like, but he’s just ok. Not great, just ok.
Same goes for the Rolling Stones.
Agree with this, both overrated as is Fawlty Towers.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 09, 2022, 09:57:38 PM
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Me as well.
An artist that I think I should really like, but he’s just ok. Not great, just ok.
Same goes for the Rolling Stones.
Agree with this, both overrated as is Fawlty Towers.
now hang on !!?
Post by: Chris Harte on June 09, 2022, 10:00:59 PM
You gonna give him a damned good thrashing?I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Me as well.
An artist that I think I should really like, but he’s just ok. Not great, just ok.
Same goes for the Rolling Stones.
Agree with this, both overrated as is Fawlty Towers.
now hang on !!?
Post by: chrisw1 on June 10, 2022, 09:10:47 AM
Dissapointed in the Bruce fans. I'll let you off as it's not a great song and it's from his worst album.Thing is putting on these gigs for the club is easy money.I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Post by: Nev on June 10, 2022, 09:28:06 AM
You people.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 10, 2022, 09:54:33 AM
Post by: andyh on June 10, 2022, 10:00:43 AM
‘villa fans. You will not be disappointed with the new north stand. Wow!. A facility and project yet to be seen in Europe.’
Given it was such a random tweet I’m hoping it’s true.
Post by: Towser on June 10, 2022, 10:02:38 AM
Quote
28 Apr 2023
BARCELONA, SPAIN
Estadi Olímpic
30 Apr 2023
BARCELONA, SPAIN
Estadi Olímpic
5 May 2023
DUBLIN, IRELAND
RDS Arena
7 May 2023
DUBLIN, IRELAND
RDS Arena
9 May 2023
DUBLIN, IRELAND
RDS Arena
13 May 2023
PARIS, FRANCE
La Défense Arena
15 May 2023
PARIS, FRANCE
La Défense Arena
18 May 2023
FERRARA, ITALY
Parco Urbano G. Bassani
21 May 2023
ROME, ITALY
Circo Massimo
25 May 2023
AMSTERDAM, THE NETHERLANDS
Johan Cruijff ArenA
27 May 2023
AMSTERDAM, THE NETHERLANDS
Johan Cruijff ArenA
11 Jun 2023
LANDGRAAF, THE NETHERLANDS
Megaland
13 Jun 2023
ZURICH, SWITZERLAND
Stadion Letzigrund
21 Jun 2023
DÜSSELDORF, GERMANY
Merkur Spiel Arena
24 Jun 2023
GOTHENBURG, SWEDEN
Ullevi
26 Jun 2023
GOTHENBURG, SWEDEN
Ullevi
28 Jun 2023
GOTHENBURG, SWEDEN
Ullevi
30 Jun 2023
OSLO, NORWAY
Voldsløkka
2 Jul 2023
OSLO, NORWAY
Voldsløkka
11 Jul 2023
COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
Parken
13 Jul 2023
COPENHAGEN, DENMARK
Parken
15 Jul 2023
HAMBURG, GERMANY
Volksparkstadion
18 Jul 2023
VIENNA, AUSTRIA
Ernst Happel Stadion
21 Jul 2023
HOCKENHEIM, GERMANY
Hockenheimring
23 Jul 2023
MUNICH, GERMANY
Olympiastadion
25 Jul 2023
MONZA, ITALY
Prato della Gerascia, Autodromo di Monza
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 10, 2022, 10:08:42 AM
You gonna give him a damned good thrashing?I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Me as well.
An artist that I think I should really like, but he’s just ok. Not great, just ok.
Same goes for the Rolling Stones.
Agree with this, both overrated as is Fawlty Towers.
now hang on !!?
to an inch or 2.54 cm of my life
Post by: Flamingo Lane on June 10, 2022, 11:59:54 AM
Dissapointed in the Bruce fans. I'll let you off as it's not a great song and it's from his worst album.Thing is putting on these gigs for the club is easy money.I'm all for the redevelopment being put on ice for 12 months if it means Springsteen is back in town.
I've never got the fuss with Springsteen.
Sorry. FWIW, I think that album is a good one, in fact I'd go so far as to say it remains his best studio album since the Rising.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 10, 2022, 12:02:49 PM
I did see a tweet from someone recently that said something along the lines of.
‘villa fans. You will not be disappointed with the new north stand. Wow!. A facility and project yet to be seen in Europe.’
Given it was such a random tweet I’m hoping it’s true.
Is it one of those waterslide-tube things you get on cruise ships that go over the side and back in? Some clubs have cameras now over the pitch, we could have fans whizzing over from the North to the Holte.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 10, 2022, 12:23:33 PM
Post by: Nelly on June 10, 2022, 04:02:02 PM
Post by: Kevin Dawson on June 10, 2022, 04:16:03 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
Post by: Stu82 on June 10, 2022, 09:18:04 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
Wimps, captain sensible played the Damned tour days after breaking ribs by playing the gigs sat on a toilet!
That's rock n roll!
Post by: paul_e on June 10, 2022, 11:27:32 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
Wimps, captain sensible played the Damned tour days after breaking ribs by playing the gigs sat on a toilet!
That's rock n roll!
It's probably worth mentioning that Grohl broke his leg falling 12 foot off the stage and refused to go to hospital before the end of the show, just got it strapped up and then carried on, it's worth googling.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 10, 2022, 11:37:20 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
Wimps, captain sensible played the Damned tour days after breaking ribs by playing the gigs sat on a toilet!
That's rock n roll!
It's probably worth mentioning that Grohl broke his leg falling 12 foot off the stage and refused to go to hospital before the end of the show, just got it strapped up and then carried on, it's worth googling.
The musical equivalent of 'running it off'.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on June 11, 2022, 01:38:09 AM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
I've been to quite a few of their big gigs, Hyde Park, Chelmsford, Wembley and I was going to see them at Wembley in '15 but managed to go to the rearranged MK bowl gig. When I went to Wembley, Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones came on, was that the first date or the 2nd like you? I can't remember.
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 11, 2022, 06:45:13 AM
Post by: Bad English on June 11, 2022, 08:30:52 AM
I did see a tweet from someone recently that said something along the lines of.'villa fans'. Is it going to resemble a Mediterranean dwelling? Tsk!
‘villa fans. You will not be disappointed with the new north stand. Wow!. A facility and project yet to be seen in Europe.’
Given it was such a random tweet I’m hoping it’s true.
Post by: JD on June 11, 2022, 08:41:41 AM
Ranking the Foo Fighters above Nirvana is like saying Wings are better than the Beatles
Totally agree. Nothing against Foo Fighters but they are a bit boring (imho).
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 11, 2022, 09:58:05 AM
Ranking the Foo Fighters above Nirvana is like saying Wings are better than the Beatles
Ha, well said! Agree with JD too.
Post by: Chris Smith on June 11, 2022, 10:03:13 AM
Ranking the Foo Fighters above Nirvana is like saying Wings are better than the Beatles
Totally agree. Nothing against Foo Fighters but they are a bit boring (imho).
Yep, musical tastes are obviously a personal thing but they just don’t do it for me.
Post by: Louzie0 on June 11, 2022, 10:58:30 AM
Anyone think the announcement of the plans is taking the piss a bit now? When is it coming?
No, delayed so Louzie0 can wrap up her GTC 2024 contest. Gotta respect that!
Glad to hear it, BV!
Post by: Nii Lamptey on June 11, 2022, 12:48:52 PM
Saw Springsteen and the E Street band at Wembley a few years back whilst the missus was pregnant with Lamptey jr - One of the greatest live acts I've ever seen! Arrived without a setlist and was just pulling requests out of the crowd, for a set which went on for well over 3 hours without a break!
On a similar note, I was reared on the Rolling Stones by my dad, and finally got the opportunity to watch them live, travelling to Anfield the other night. Yes they're old (slightly older than the nipper's grandparents!), but they're absolute legends of British Rock n Roll and I won't hear any other word said about it!
Sixty years they've been going for - How many bands will ever have that longevity ever again? I'd hazard a guess the answer will be ZERO! Yes, they look like the Walking Dead, but to still be performing (and have the desire to) at their ages is something to behold. Jagger's exploits strutting and running around the stage would put most of us middle-agers to shame.
Also - Back on topic... Having not visited Anfield since my younger days, I'd forgotten how 'small' the place feels compared to Villa Park. The 'mighty Kop' pales in comparison to our Holte End, and take their main stand out of the equation and it's average at best.
One thing which is IMMENSELY better than VP are the support staff in and around Anfield - The way they handle crowds/turnstiles/food and beer counters is lightyears away from what we suffer with. THIS is an area that we need to look at before any bulldozers come in imo, as the match day experience is pretty fecking shocking at Villa Park tbh.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on June 11, 2022, 02:00:59 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
Wimps, captain sensible played the Damned tour days after breaking ribs by playing the gigs sat on a toilet!
That's rock n roll!
Bobby Womack did an encore from his dressing room when his legs we’re playing him up after a show.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 11, 2022, 04:11:15 PM
Bruce Springsteen and Rolling Stones overrated?! What is wrong with you people!I was surprised how good the Stones were when I saw them a couple of years ago. I thought they'd be too old but it was a great show. I've seen Springsteen a couple of times. He's a great showman and as you say he plays for hours. They had to pull the plug out on him at Hyde Park as he went past the curfew.
Saw Springsteen and the E Street band at Wembley a few years back whilst the missus was pregnant with Lamptey jr - One of the greatest live acts I've ever seen! Arrived without a setlist and was just pulling requests out of the crowd, for a set which went on for well over 3 hours without a break!
On a similar note, I was reared on the Rolling Stones by my dad, and finally got the opportunity to watch them live, travelling to Anfield the other night. Yes they're old (slightly older than the nipper's grandparents!), but they're absolute legends of British Rock n Roll and I won't hear any other word said about it!
Sixty years they've been going for - How many bands will ever have that longevity ever again? I'd hazard a guess the answer will be ZERO! Yes, they look like the Walking Dead, but to still be performing (and have the desire to) at their ages is something to behold. Jagger's exploits strutting and running around the stage would put most of us middle-agers to shame.
Also - Back on topic... Having not visited Anfield since my younger days, I'd forgotten how 'small' the place feels compared to Villa Park. The 'mighty Kop' pales in comparison to our Holte End, and take their main stand out of the equation and it's average at best.
One thing which is IMMENSELY better than VP are the support staff in and around Anfield - The way they handle crowds/turnstiles/food and beer counters is lightyears away from what we suffer with. THIS is an area that we need to look at before any bulldozers come in imo, as the match day experience is pretty fecking shocking at Villa Park tbh.
Green Day are very good live, an excellent show and great front man, but they do the same chat and gimmicks every time. But worth it if you get the chance.
But I stand by my comment on the Foo Fighters, the greatest band (still playing) out there. Dave Grohl is a brilliant front man and they are fantastic live. I've seen them 3 times and was looking forward to seeing them at the best staium in the world.
Post by: algy on June 11, 2022, 04:31:30 PM
Post by: Kevin Dawson on June 11, 2022, 05:09:27 PM
Bruce Springsteen and Rolling Stones overrated?! What is wrong with you people!I was surprised how good the Stones were when I saw them a couple of years ago. I thought they'd be too old but it was a great show. I've seen Springsteen a couple of times. He's a great showman and as you say he plays for hours. They had to pull the plug out on him at Hyde Park as he went past the curfew.
Saw Springsteen and the E Street band at Wembley a few years back whilst the missus was pregnant with Lamptey jr - One of the greatest live acts I've ever seen! Arrived without a setlist and was just pulling requests out of the crowd, for a set which went on for well over 3 hours without a break!
On a similar note, I was reared on the Rolling Stones by my dad, and finally got the opportunity to watch them live, travelling to Anfield the other night. Yes they're old (slightly older than the nipper's grandparents!), but they're absolute legends of British Rock n Roll and I won't hear any other word said about it!
Sixty years they've been going for - How many bands will ever have that longevity ever again? I'd hazard a guess the answer will be ZERO! Yes, they look like the Walking Dead, but to still be performing (and have the desire to) at their ages is something to behold. Jagger's exploits strutting and running around the stage would put most of us middle-agers to shame.
Also - Back on topic... Having not visited Anfield since my younger days, I'd forgotten how 'small' the place feels compared to Villa Park. The 'mighty Kop' pales in comparison to our Holte End, and take their main stand out of the equation and it's average at best.
One thing which is IMMENSELY better than VP are the support staff in and around Anfield - The way they handle crowds/turnstiles/food and beer counters is lightyears away from what we suffer with. THIS is an area that we need to look at before any bulldozers come in imo, as the match day experience is pretty fecking shocking at Villa Park tbh.
Green Day are very good live, an excellent show and great front man, but they do the same chat and gimmicks every time. But worth it if you get the chance.
But I stand by my comment on the Foo Fighters, the greatest band (still playing) out there. Dave Grohl is a brilliant front man and they are fantastic live. I've seen them 3 times and was looking forward to seeing them at the best staium in the world.
I agree. Jones and Page were on the second night at Wembley. Dave Grohl was very emotional describing it as 'the greatest night of my f***ing life'. Amazing concert.
Post by: villa `cross the mersey on June 11, 2022, 05:20:04 PM
No. They've announced a tribute show in London, but no mention of a wider tour yet.In fairness, they are a drummer down.
Given it was a few months ago now I wasn't sure whether they were still going ahead as a tribute.I've seen the Foo Fighters live three times they are brilliant band.The greatest rock ond roll band on the planet Darren.
I agree. I had a seat behind the dugouts for Villa Park. The last time I tried to see them was Wembley in 2015, when Dave Grohl inconveniently broke his leg a couple of weeks before and they cancelled several gigs (not surprisingly). Haven't see them since the second night at Wembley in 2008........
Shame they cancelled the whole tour, but quite understandable. I'm hoping to get tickets for the Wembley Tribute show....
Wimps, captain sensible played the Damned tour days after breaking ribs by playing the gigs sat on a toilet!
That's rock n roll!
Bobby Womack did an encore from his dressing room when his legs we’re playing him up after a show.
I was at that gig at the Philharmonic Hall - Liverpool
It was evident from the start of the gig that Bobby wasn`t well
True performer though he gave it his all
It was the last chance I got to see him perform
Paul Ince was sat in the seat directly in front of me - I struggled to see Bobby on stage as Paul Ince has the thickest neck I have ever seen :)
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 11, 2022, 05:23:55 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 11, 2022, 05:52:27 PM
can we rename this thread please 😃
Back on topic I'd love to see Metallica, who really are the greatest band still playing out there, at Villa Park with Geezer making an appearance.
Post by: Chris Harte on June 11, 2022, 06:16:20 PM
If the trains won't come then maybe some other way of getting people moving quickly before and after games, provided by the club. I know buses were provided during at least part of the Randy years. Whether that could be re-introduced and scaled up, I don't know.
One other thought I did have was related to Elon Musk's Boring Company (edit: for those that don't know they dig tunnels). Maybe a direct connection from VP to the city centre. In truth, it would likely be prohibitively expensive and not get approval from the local authorities.
Anyone have any other thoughts on this or alternatives?
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 11, 2022, 07:19:26 PM
Transport is perhaps the most contentious issue affecting matchday. The club know it's a problem, they're trying to do something about it but there's a total lack of joined-up thinking from the relevant authorities.
Post by: Exeter 77 on June 11, 2022, 08:33:39 PM
To avoid a quotathon:How is it working for the Commonwealth Games? Surely that would set a precedent of what should be implemented.
Transport is perhaps the most contentious issue affecting matchday. The club know it's a problem, they're trying to do something about it but there's a total lack of joined-up thinking from the relevant authorities.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 11, 2022, 08:47:16 PM
To avoid a quotathon:How is it working for the Commonwealth Games? Surely that would set a precedent of what should be implemented.
Transport is perhaps the most contentious issue affecting matchday. The club know it's a problem, they're trying to do something about it but there's a total lack of joined-up thinking from the relevant authorities.
It's not working. The Sprint isn't ready, the park & ride at Great Barr isn't ready, the tram extension into Wolverhampton station isn't ready. So yeah, precedent set.
Post by: Exeter 77 on June 11, 2022, 09:04:59 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 11, 2022, 09:08:04 PM
I think I meant how should it work for the Commonwealth Games?
Andy Street's got a magic carpet.
Post by: Exeter 77 on June 11, 2022, 09:11:31 PM
Sadly that is the answer I expected.I think I meant how should it work for the Commonwealth Games?
Andy Street's got a magic carpet.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 11, 2022, 09:16:46 PM
Sadly that is the answer I expected.I think I meant how should it work for the Commonwealth Games?
Andy Street's got a magic carpet.
Om a vaguely serious note, there was supposed to be a park & ride, a bus sprinter lane from the city centre and upgrades to Perry Barr station.
Post by: Chris Harte on June 11, 2022, 09:19:37 PM
The new Perry Barr station looks a right state. Also, wasn't the former UCE site opposite One Stop meant to have been the athlete's village, but then part way through construction it wasn't?Sadly that is the answer I expected.I think I meant how should it work for the Commonwealth Games?
Andy Street's got a magic carpet.
Om a vaguely serious note, there was supposed to be a park & ride, a bus sprinter lane from the city centre and upgrades to Perry Barr station.
Post by: Joe S on June 11, 2022, 09:31:53 PM
can we rename this thread please 😃
Back on topic I'd love to see Metallica, who really are the greatest band still playing out there, at Villa Park with Geezer making an appearance.
Correct BV. We're seeing them at Firenze Rocks next weekend. Not quite Villa Park but an acceptable part of the world.
Post by: The Edge on June 12, 2022, 09:46:16 AM
You're right the athletes village idea was abandoned half way through construction. The absolute mess they have made of the removal of the Perry Barr flyover and subsequent re-organising of the road layout doesn't look likely to be ready for the games. Therefore the Sprint bus won't be up and running. There were signs up at the junction specifying a completion date for January 22. Those were removed in February. Piss up and brewery are two words that spring to mind.The new Perry Barr station looks a right state. Also, wasn't the former UCE site opposite One Stop meant to have been the athlete's village, but then part way through construction it wasn't?Sadly that is the answer I expected.I think I meant how should it work for the Commonwealth Games?
Andy Street's got a magic carpet.
Om a vaguely serious note, there was supposed to be a park & ride, a bus sprinter lane from the city centre and upgrades to Perry Barr station.
Post by: Ad@m on June 12, 2022, 10:01:07 AM
Post by: amfy on June 12, 2022, 10:04:08 AM
You're right the athletes village idea was abandoned half way through construction. The absolute mess they have made of the removal of the Perry Barr flyover and subsequent re-organising of the road layout doesn't look likely to be ready for the games. Therefore the Sprint bus won't be up and running. There were signs up at the junction specifying a completion date for January 22. Those were removed in February. Piss up and brewery are two words that spring to mind.The new Perry Barr station looks a right state. Also, wasn't the former UCE site opposite One Stop meant to have been the athlete's village, but then part way through construction it wasn't?Sadly that is the answer I expected.I think I meant how should it work for the Commonwealth Games?
Andy Street's got a magic carpet.
Om a vaguely serious note, there was supposed to be a park & ride, a bus sprinter lane from the city centre and upgrades to Perry Barr station.
In fairness Birmingham was already disadvantaged by taking on the games at a late stage, & then covid hit. It’s had a massive impact on construction.
That said, given when work actually started, I’d have abandoned the flyover demolition and put those construction resources into finishing the athletes village. They actually also put loads of resources into upgrading University stations so they could use university accommodation, & again, diverting that to go full pelt at the athletes village would have seemed a better idea - but tbf, I know bog all about construction so maybe that wasn’t an option.
Post by: amfy on June 12, 2022, 10:08:24 AM
I don't really understand why the Perry Barr flyover got removed. I just can't see how it's going to make the traffic situation better.
They have experience of removing flyovers and underpasses in the city centre which haven’t had a massive effect on traffic flow. That flyover in the middle of a residential area is an eyesore & is the boundary between the worst postcode wars in the city. No other radial route from the motorway has it & I know they are all slow, but I actually think wanting to keep it is like a form of Stockholm syndrome for the residents.
Post by: The Edge on June 12, 2022, 01:17:45 PM
I can't see any benefit to the local area having removed the flyover. I'd be all for it if it helped with traffic problems on matchdays but it just a bit too far away. All they're doing is creating a huge junction with lots of traffic lights. There is one small gain though and that is when you come out of One Stop at the bottom exit you can actually turn right towards the city centre which you couldn't do before.I don't really understand why the Perry Barr flyover got removed. I just can't see how it's going to make the traffic situation better.
They have experience of removing flyovers and underpasses in the city centre which haven’t had a massive effect on traffic flow. That flyover in the middle of a residential area is an eyesore & is the boundary between the worst postcode wars in the city. No other radial route from the motorway has it & I know they are all slow, but I actually think wanting to keep it is like a form of Stockholm syndrome for the residents.
Post by: amfy on June 12, 2022, 02:34:42 PM
Junctions like that exist on every other radial route & haven’t needed a monstrosity of a flyover in the middle. Would we go the other way and build flyovers at the junction of Bristol Road with Highgate Middleway, or at The Kings Head in Bearwood? We wouldn”t, & there’s a reason for that.I can't see any benefit to the local area having removed the flyover. I'd be all for it if it helped with traffic problems on matchdays but it just a bit too far away. All they're doing is creating a huge junction with lots of traffic lights. There is one small gain though and that is when you come out of One Stop at the bottom exit you can actually turn right towards the city centre which you couldn't do before.I don't really understand why the Perry Barr flyover got removed. I just can't see how it's going to make the traffic situation better.
They have experience of removing flyovers and underpasses in the city centre which haven’t had a massive effect on traffic flow. That flyover in the middle of a residential area is an eyesore & is the boundary between the worst postcode wars in the city. No other radial route from the motorway has it & I know they are all slow, but I actually think wanting to keep it is like a form of Stockholm syndrome for the residents.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 12, 2022, 02:45:53 PM
Junctions like that exist on every other radial route & haven’t needed a monstrosity of a flyover in the middle. Would we go the other way and build flyovers at the junction of Bristol Road with Highgate Middleway, or at The Kings Head in Bearwood? We wouldn”t, & there’s a reason for that.I can't see any benefit to the local area having removed the flyover. I'd be all for it if it helped with traffic problems on matchdays but it just a bit too far away. All they're doing is creating a huge junction with lots of traffic lights. There is one small gain though and that is when you come out of One Stop at the bottom exit you can actually turn right towards the city centre which you couldn't do before.I don't really understand why the Perry Barr flyover got removed. I just can't see how it's going to make the traffic situation better.
They have experience of removing flyovers and underpasses in the city centre which haven’t had a massive effect on traffic flow. That flyover in the middle of a residential area is an eyesore & is the boundary between the worst postcode wars in the city. No other radial route from the motorway has it & I know they are all slow, but I actually think wanting to keep it is like a form of Stockholm syndrome for the residents.
If you mean Belgrave Middleway there's a tunnel there.
Post by: Chris Harte on June 12, 2022, 03:07:41 PM
I think she means the route in/out of town. The tunnel is on the ring round.Junctions like that exist on every other radial route & haven’t needed a monstrosity of a flyover in the middle. Would we go the other way and build flyovers at the junction of Bristol Road with Highgate Middleway, or at The Kings Head in Bearwood? We wouldn”t, & there’s a reason for that.I can't see any benefit to the local area having removed the flyover. I'd be all for it if it helped with traffic problems on matchdays but it just a bit too far away. All they're doing is creating a huge junction with lots of traffic lights. There is one small gain though and that is when you come out of One Stop at the bottom exit you can actually turn right towards the city centre which you couldn't do before.I don't really understand why the Perry Barr flyover got removed. I just can't see how it's going to make the traffic situation better.
They have experience of removing flyovers and underpasses in the city centre which haven’t had a massive effect on traffic flow. That flyover in the middle of a residential area is an eyesore & is the boundary between the worst postcode wars in the city. No other radial route from the motorway has it & I know they are all slow, but I actually think wanting to keep it is like a form of Stockholm syndrome for the residents.
If you mean Belgrave Middleway there's a tunnel there.
Post by: amfy on June 12, 2022, 03:30:23 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 12, 2022, 03:38:05 PM
I simply mean we wouldn’t put these things in now, which is an indicator of why it’s a good thing to take them out, although I did forget the tunnel on the ring road, I think flyovers are more intrusive because they are more in the sight line.
I agree, but that particular tunnel is essential. Scrapping the Perry Barr one has always seemed a typical Birmingham 'Be nice when it's finished' move.
Post by: paul_e on June 12, 2022, 03:40:06 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 12, 2022, 10:51:54 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 13, 2022, 08:22:45 AM
Where we really need a tunnel - a proper underground one - is under Great Charles Street.
Yes! Would make the JQ part of the city centre.
The mayor should be all over that. I’ve heard he’s useless though (from people who work with him).
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 13, 2022, 09:15:12 AM
Post by: paul_e on June 13, 2022, 12:03:17 PM
Post by: The Edge on June 13, 2022, 12:43:10 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 13, 2022, 12:56:54 PM
can we rename this thread please 😃
Back on topic I'd love to see Metallica, who really are the greatest band still playing out there, at Villa Park with Geezer making an appearance.
Correct BV. We're seeing them at Firenze Rocks next weekend. Not quite Villa Park but an acceptable part of the world.
Those who know, know. ;) Hope you enjoy them as much as I did when I saw them at 'Rock in Rio'. :)
Post by: Chris Harte on June 13, 2022, 03:40:05 PM
I went to watch England in Marseille and was shocked by the amount tunnels. One in particular goes from the centre right to the football stadium and it's further than Brum centre to VP so a tunnel isn't as ludicrous as it sounds.Is that a pedestrian tunnel or a road tunnel? Can you remember roughly how wide it is?
Post by: The Edge on June 13, 2022, 07:56:03 PM
It's a series of road tunnels. I think there was two lanes in each direction. A lot like our Queensway tunnels.I went to watch England in Marseille and was shocked by the amount tunnels. One in particular goes from the centre right to the football stadium and it's further than Brum centre to VP so a tunnel isn't as ludicrous as it sounds.Is that a pedestrian tunnel or a road tunnel? Can you remember roughly how wide it is?
Post by: Chris Harte on June 13, 2022, 10:16:52 PM
Thankyou.It's a series of road tunnels. I think there was two lanes in each direction. A lot like our Queensway tunnels.I went to watch England in Marseille and was shocked by the amount tunnels. One in particular goes from the centre right to the football stadium and it's further than Brum centre to VP so a tunnel isn't as ludicrous as it sounds.Is that a pedestrian tunnel or a road tunnel? Can you remember roughly how wide it is?
I've no idea how the Queensway tunnel was bulit (was a trench dug that was then built over, for example?) but suspect it's a no-goer for the easing of conjestion at Villa Park. The Boring Company reckon they can build 12ft wide road tunnels (so wide enough for one lane) for 10M USD (around £9M?) per mile. Two tunnels running city to VP before kickoff and the opposite after you're looking at £36M (approx 2 miles), it seems. Would that even be worth it?
Maybe the tunnels need to go elsewhere? Great Barr? Erdington? Etc? I can see the bill racking up already.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 13, 2022, 10:21:37 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on June 13, 2022, 10:24:37 PM
I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?Just brainstorming, given that the roads are conjested, the trains not running frequently enough to prevent huge queues at Witton Station, etc. Maybe we need a teleportation device.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 13, 2022, 10:25:26 PM
I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Monorail !!!!
Post by: Chris Harte on June 13, 2022, 10:27:14 PM
With a name like yours, I'd have thought you'd have been more up for the tunnels. **winky emote**I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Monorail !!!!
Post by: eamonn on June 13, 2022, 10:27:17 PM
I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Lovre Kalinic is still on our books and doing fuck-all for his salary. Give him a shovel and let him get on with it.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 13, 2022, 10:49:26 PM
With a name like yours, I'd have thought you'd have been more up for the tunnels. **winky emote**I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Monorail !!!!
bloody stereo typing ::) ;)
Post by: algy on June 14, 2022, 07:53:58 AM
I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?Take a look back on this thread. Underground canals going beneath Aston Hall, plus a cable car to the centre of Brum. It's the only way.
Post by: Exeter 77 on June 14, 2022, 07:56:36 AM
The council wil have to go on a fact finding mission to Ogdenville and North Haverbrook.I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Monorail !!!!
Post by: The Edge on June 14, 2022, 08:53:02 AM
You forgot about cable cars and hot air balloons. I think a fleet of Rickshaws parked on Aston Park is also worthy of consideration.I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?Take a look back on this thread. Underground canals going beneath Aston Hall, plus a cable car to the centre of Brum. It's the only way.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 14, 2022, 09:10:51 AM
The council wil have to go on a fact finding mission to Ogdenville and North Haverbrook.I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Monorail !!!!
monorail !!! :D
Post by: LeeB on June 14, 2022, 09:21:13 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 14, 2022, 09:26:29 AM
Post by: Drummond on June 14, 2022, 09:42:04 AM
I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?
Lovre Kalinic is still on our books and doing fuck-all for his salary. Give him a shovel and let him get on with it.
With goalie hands he shouldn't need a shovel.
Post by: Ads on June 14, 2022, 12:24:31 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 14, 2022, 12:35:27 PM
Post by: Dazvillain on June 14, 2022, 12:38:25 PM
I keep clicking on here when there is a new post hoping the concept design is out. Can't wait to see what it looks like, as I said before, there's a real childlike delight for me with stadium changes. I suspect we're going to go for something like the Anfield Road, where their aren't corners filled, but there aren't gaps.
Agree can we keep this thread to topic esp as it doesn’t happen every year
Post by: eamonn on June 14, 2022, 04:26:41 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 14, 2022, 05:15:13 PM
If there aren't corners filled and there aren't gaps, how does it look, then?
(https://dictionary.cambridge.org/images/thumb/circle_noun_001_02738.jpg?version=5.0.243)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSl2OhJdwuStoiEUqzCixKDxjmBv2_Ei0X6bQ&usqp=CAU)
Post by: Chris Harte on June 14, 2022, 08:20:49 PM
Not to be confused with hot air babboons. You'd need the general politics thread for that.You forgot about cable cars and hot air balloons. I think a fleet of Rickshaws parked on Aston Park is also worthy of consideration.I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?Take a look back on this thread. Underground canals going beneath Aston Hall, plus a cable car to the centre of Brum. It's the only way.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 14, 2022, 08:27:15 PM
You forgot about cable cars and hot air balloons. I think a fleet of Rickshaws parked on Aston Park is also worthy of consideration.I didn't think anyone was seriously suggesting digging tunnels to Villa Park. Surely not?Take a look back on this thread. Underground canals going beneath Aston Hall, plus a cable car to the centre of Brum. It's the only way.
By the time we're parading the FA Cup at VP there'll probably be flying cars anyway.
Post by: exigo on June 18, 2022, 11:20:07 AM
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on June 18, 2022, 12:28:18 PM
https://twitter.com/masaunders75/status/1537554515850891264?s=21&t=-8Tr2EFVfgi9bMgxA5pevA
Post by: Risso on June 18, 2022, 12:41:02 PM
Seeing this did get me thinking there's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting with the space at that end of the ground. Slope the new North Stand roof down towards the pitch and cover it in solar panels, plenty of space in the car park to have claret and blue wind turbines – now the gas holders are disappearing, bit of a statement to replace them with sustainable energy production.
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
That's very smart. Seeing things like that just reinforces my belief that we should knock the old thing down, and build something huge and brilliant somewhere else.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Post by: algy on June 18, 2022, 01:38:36 PM
Can we not just build something huge & brilliant where we are?Seeing this did get me thinking there's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting with the space at that end of the ground. Slope the new North Stand roof down towards the pitch and cover it in solar panels, plenty of space in the car park to have claret and blue wind turbines – now the gas holders are disappearing, bit of a statement to replace them with sustainable energy production.
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
That's very smart. Seeing things like that just reinforces my belief that we should knock the old thing down, and build something huge and brilliant somewhere else.
I reckon we could get Villa Park up to 60k fairly comfortably. It's then "just" a case of making sure that we're not doing it on the cheap - that we're building stands that will command as big a place in the club's heart as the old Trinity Road stand did in 50/75/100 years time.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 18, 2022, 01:42:54 PM
Can we not just build something huge & brilliant where we are?
I reckon we could get Villa Park up to 60k fairly comfortably. It's then "just" a case of making sure that we're not doing it on the cheap - that we're building stands that will command as big a place in the club's heart as the old Trinity Road stand did in 50/75/100 years time.
Is the correct answer.
Post by: Ads on June 18, 2022, 01:44:18 PM
We want something huge, imposing and inkeeping with our traditions. We are something old and valuable. I don't fancy looking at a sloped roof with fugly solar panels on it for the next 50 years.
Post by: Risso on June 18, 2022, 01:45:09 PM
Can we not just build something huge & brilliant where we are?
I reckon we could get Villa Park up to 60k fairly comfortably. It's then "just" a case of making sure that we're not doing it on the cheap - that we're building stands that will command as big a place in the club's heart as the old Trinity Road stand did in 50/75/100 years time.
It's probably been done to death, but even if you could get around the natural constraints of having two of the stands hemmed in by roads and a row of houses, you've then got all of the existing infrastructure problems
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 18, 2022, 01:48:58 PM
Not a fan of that Brentford/Tinpot Allianz clone.
We want something huge, imposing and inkeeping with our traditions. We are something old and valuable. I don't fancy looking at a sloped roof with fugly solar panels on it for the next 50 years.
Is the correct answer.
Post by: john e on June 18, 2022, 01:58:42 PM
Not the cheapest available like the DE era
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on June 18, 2022, 03:04:01 PM
Have you turned into Bamber Gascoigne?Not a fan of that Brentford/Tinpot Allianz clone.
We want something huge, imposing and inkeeping with our traditions. We are something old and valuable. I don't fancy looking at a sloped roof with fugly solar panels on it for the next 50 years.
Is the correct answer.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 18, 2022, 03:16:16 PM
Is the correct answer.
Have you turned into Bamber Gascoigne?
I hope not, he's dead.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on June 18, 2022, 03:18:42 PM
Gordon Burns then.Is the correct answer.
Have you turned into Bamber Gascoigne?
I hope not, he's dead.
Post by: RamboandBruno on June 19, 2022, 01:22:28 PM
Seeing this did get me thinking there's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting with the space at that end of the ground. Slope the new North Stand roof down towards the pitch and cover it in solar panels, plenty of space in the car park to have claret and blue wind turbines – now the gas holders are disappearing, bit of a statement to replace them with sustainable energy production.
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
That's very smart. Seeing things like that just reinforces my belief that we should knock the old thing down, and build something huge and brilliant somewhere else.
Just no, nostalgia and history have their place and Villa Park is special. Debates been had endlessly, but despite a mediocre last 25 years, its one of the things that still makes us a special club
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 19, 2022, 02:38:02 PM
Just no, nostalgia and history have their place and Villa Park is special. Debates been had endlessly, but despite a mediocre last 25 years, its one of the things that still makes us a special club
Is the correct answer.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 19, 2022, 02:46:35 PM
Seeing this did get me thinking there's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting with the space at that end of the ground. Slope the new North Stand roof down towards the pitch and cover it in solar panels, plenty of space in the car park to have claret and blue wind turbines – now the gas holders are disappearing, bit of a statement to replace them with sustainable energy production.
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
Brest 😂😂😂
Post by: KevinGage on June 19, 2022, 04:54:55 PM
A bit off topic but when I see pictures of Pompey’s Leitch stand - a poor man’s Trinity Road - being restored it does make me nostalgic.
https://twitter.com/masaunders75/status/1537554515850891264?s=21&t=-8Tr2EFVfgi9bMgxA5pevA
Interesting that both Pompey and Rangers could restore their old Leitch stands.
But we had just had to bulldoze ours because of rust in the lower tier apparently. And replace the best one in the country with the current carbunkle. Shirley Rangers and Pompey with their coastal locations would have had more of an issue with rust. Or maybe their owners value their history a bit more than Ellis did ours.
Post by: London Villan on June 19, 2022, 06:45:06 PM
From in the ground the stand looks great, but from the outside it’s a monument to everything that was wrong with the bloke that commissioned it.
Post by: wittonwarrior on June 19, 2022, 08:49:50 PM
Can we not just build something huge & brilliant where we are?Seeing this did get me thinking there's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting with the space at that end of the ground. Slope the new North Stand roof down towards the pitch and cover it in solar panels, plenty of space in the car park to have claret and blue wind turbines – now the gas holders are disappearing, bit of a statement to replace them with sustainable energy production.
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
That's very smart. Seeing things like that just reinforces my belief that we should knock the old thing down, and build something huge and brilliant somewhere else.
I reckon we could get Villa Park up to 60k fairly comfortably. It's then "just" a case of making sure that we're not doing it on the cheap - that we're building stands that will command as big a place in the club's heart as the old Trinity Road stand did in 50/75/100 years time.
Absolutely no point in going too high - we do not have the transport infrastructure to cope with what we drag in already, imagine another 20,000 bedlam
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 19, 2022, 08:56:11 PM
If there is the will - and that's the sticking point - then it shouldn't really take that much to massively improve things.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 19, 2022, 09:16:04 PM
What is strange is that we know the transport links let the location down, yet the ground has two train stations, one either side, is a few miles from the city centre, and is walking distance from the centre of the country's motorway network.
If there is the will - and that's the sticking point - then it shouldn't really take that much to massively improve things.
To repeat what Simon Inglis said to me the other week - transport-wise we've got the prefect location for a stadium; it's let down by how it's serviced.
Post by: exigo on June 19, 2022, 09:57:57 PM
Post by: Ad@m on June 19, 2022, 11:03:15 PM
The rest are worse to get away from than VP, so I don't buy the argument that we can't add significantly more capacity for fear of overwhelming the local infrastructure.
You've also got to remember that when the game finishes at VP, 40,000 people leave en masse. There's absolutely no attempt made to keep anyone at the ground any longer - quite the opposite. If leaving the ground became that much of an issue, the club could create a bit of a fan park somewhere nearby for people to have a few drinks, get something to eat, etc or even keep the ground open a bit longer to offer much the same, spreading out the flow of people leaving.
Post by: Risso on June 19, 2022, 11:31:42 PM
Correct - looking at the other grounds in England which have larger capacities than ours, only Wembley has a better infrastructure and that's solely down to the size of the railway station serving it.
The rest are worse to get away from than VP, so I don't buy the argument that we can't add significantly more capacity for fear of overwhelming the local infrastructure.
You've also got to remember that when the game finishes at VP, 40,000 people leave en masse. There's absolutely no attempt made to keep anyone at the ground any longer - quite the opposite. If leaving the ground became that much of an issue, the club could create a bit of a fan park somewhere nearby for people to have a few drinks, get something to eat, etc or even keep the ground open a bit longer to offer much the same, spreading out the flow of people leaving.
I beg to differ. Newcastle is more or less slap bang in the city centre and is a few minutes walk from the mainline train station. Being in the city centre there are a million more things to do after the match in close proximity than there are around Villa Park.
Man City has load of car parks near by and a tram stop that handles crowds miles more easily than the train stations in Aston do. West Ham is really easy to get to, and would be to leave if they didn't do that ridiculous blocking off of all the walkways after the game. Old Trafford is much less hemmed in than VP. Being in area that is mainly retail/light industrial it is surrounded by dual carriageways and has a tram stop. Arsenal has three tube stations and an over ground train staion within a ten minute walk.
As much as people love Villa Park, it will always have the following problems due to its location in an old and densely populated residential area:
- No large proper car parks anywhere near.
- All of the surrounding streets off Trinity road are old and too narrow for cars to pass easily
- No infrastructure in the immediate area to entice people to stay after the match to stretch out leaving times
- Stations that aren't intended for large groups of people
Add in the fact that transport in Birmingham in general is a joke, and that there doesn't seem to be much will to do anything about it, it all adds up to VP being a being right ballache to get away from.
Post by: Rory on June 20, 2022, 02:54:28 AM
Add in the fact that transport in Birmingham in general is a joke, and that there doesn't seem to be much will to do anything about it, it all adds up to VP being a being right ballache to get away from.
I agree. My parents live up towards Tower Hill, maybe 2 miles away maximum. I grew up there and it remains our base for home games, and we have never bothered trying to use any kind of public or private transport, we just walk there and back because it is always quicker.
I spent three years on the dole, signing on at Perry Barr jobcentre, and it was the same then, at 10-11am, midweek. The 40-minute walk was almost always quicker and easier than public transport, and saved the £5-odd that you'd pay for a shite service.
I don't blame the club, I have been using public transport every day for almost 25 years, and Birmingham has the worst network for a sizeable city that I've ever known, apart from possibly Leicester.
It's expected with London - given that 50p of every £1 invested in public infrastructure in the UK is spent in London - but Manchester, Glasgow, Sheffield, Nottingham all have better networks than us.
When I was at UoB 10-15 years ago, I had a bus pass, but would still walk the 6-odd miles home once a week or more, because it was simply easier than relying on the fucking buses.
Post by: RamboandBruno on June 20, 2022, 07:02:27 AM
Add in the fact that transport in Birmingham in general is a joke, and that there doesn't seem to be much will to do anything about it, it all adds up to VP being a being right ballache to get away from.
I agree. My parents live up towards Tower Hill, maybe 2 miles away maximum. I grew up there and it remains our base for home games, and we have never bothered trying to use any kind of public or private transport, we just walk there and back because it is always quicker.
I spent three years on the dole, signing on at Perry Barr jobcentre, and it was the same then, at 10-11am, midweek. The 40-minute walk was almost always quicker and easier than public transport, and saved the £5-odd that you'd pay for a shite service.
I don't blame the club, I have been using public transport every day for almost 25 years, and Birmingham has the worst network for a sizeable city that I've ever known, apart from possibly Leicester.
It's expected with London - given that 50p of every £1 invested in public infrastructure in the UK is spent in London - but Manchester, Glasgow, Sheffield, Nottingham all have better networks than us.
When I was at UoB 10-15 years ago, I had a bus pass, but would still walk the 6-odd miles home once a week or more, because it was simply easier than relying on the fucking buses.
Having lived in Birmingham most of my life and both north Birmingham in Great Barr not far from Tower Hill and Boldmere for the last 22 years, i agree with most of this re the citys transport infrastructure, its embarrassing to see a tram system following more or less a train line to Wolverhampton, or otherwise construction stalling at Broad St.
other than the cross city line is pretty good if you want to go to a limited number of places in the city north to south or visa versa. Its also pretty good on match days getting to the games, just getting away is the problem as people have pointed out. Although i have to say there was only one game last season where i waited more than 10 mins for a train home, the overcrowding and queuing was more of a problem, heightened for me as i have my kids with me and it sometimes felt like it was almost bordering on unsafe.
Driving is more of an issue, unless i park 25 plus walk away from the stadium, i would be literally doing nearly 2 hours to do a 5 mile drive home.
However, moving to a souless bowl somewhere, losing all of the personal and club history of VP as well as the iconic stadium that makes us stand out as a club, would be a disaster. How many clubs really feel like they retain their identity after moving to a replica identikit superbowl. In addition, the citys shite transport structure, is exactly that, city wide, moving i don’t think solves that problem.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 20, 2022, 09:51:54 AM
Post by: Risso on June 20, 2022, 10:00:11 AM
When I was at UoB 10-15 years ago, I had a bus pass, but would still walk the 6-odd miles home once a week or more, because it was simply easier than relying on the fucking buses.
Funnily enough, when I was there at the start of the 90s, I thought the transport system was great. We had two Cross-city lines train stations within a few minutes walk at Selly Oak and the university itself, which were great for going into the city centre and back on. Only ever travelled off peak so it was cheap and there was no overcrowding. I'd ocassionally go and meet my parents at my uncle's house in Sutton, so used it for that as well. Never used the bus because the train sorted all my needs.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on June 20, 2022, 10:01:20 AM
Interestly I never got the train until I moved to Stourbridge.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2022, 10:06:44 AM
Where is Jimbo when you need him?
Waiting for the trolley bus to take him from outside his house to the Museum of Eighteenth Century Birmingham Sanitation.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 20, 2022, 10:08:22 AM
I also vaguely recall you could buy a combo metro / bus plus match entry ticket which let you travel anywhere on the transport network on match day (although I may have read about that in subsequent years rather than used it myself).
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 20, 2022, 10:08:42 AM
Where is Jimbo when you need him?
Waiting for the trolley bus to take him from outside his house to the Museum of Eighteenth Century Birmingham Sanitation.
Ha ha, very good.
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2022, 10:11:12 AM
When I was at UoB 10-15 years ago, I had a bus pass, but would still walk the 6-odd miles home once a week or more, because it was simply easier than relying on the fucking buses.
Funnily enough, when I was there at the start of the 90s, I thought the transport system was great. We had two Cross-city lines train stations within a few minutes walk at Selly Oak and the university itself, which were great for going into the city centre and back on. Only ever travelled off peak so it was cheap and there was no overcrowding. I'd ocassionally go and meet my parents at my uncle's house in Sutton, so used it for that as well. Never used the bus because the train sorted all my needs.
Growing up very close to where I live now on the east side of the city I never used a train. In fact, I think the first time I ever went on a train was down to Wembley for the 2000 FA Cup semi-final.
Castle Bromwich station went with the Beeching cuts, and in the meantime they built a massive motorway, parallel dual cariageway and a huge junction and interchange in between.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 20, 2022, 10:19:17 AM
I don't think for a minute we'd sell out 60k regulalrly, but the transport infastructure cannot be the limiting factor in our growth. There has to be solutions and the club needs to work with BCC to find them.Can we not just build something huge & brilliant where we are?Seeing this did get me thinking there's an opportunity to do something a bit more interesting with the space at that end of the ground. Slope the new North Stand roof down towards the pitch and cover it in solar panels, plenty of space in the car park to have claret and blue wind turbines – now the gas holders are disappearing, bit of a statement to replace them with sustainable energy production.
New Stade Brestois stadium linky. (https://www.footballgroundmap.com/news/2022-04/stade-brestois-reveal-new-stadium-plans)
That's very smart. Seeing things like that just reinforces my belief that we should knock the old thing down, and build something huge and brilliant somewhere else.
I reckon we could get Villa Park up to 60k fairly comfortably. It's then "just" a case of making sure that we're not doing it on the cheap - that we're building stands that will command as big a place in the club's heart as the old Trinity Road stand did in 50/75/100 years time.
Absolutely no point in going too high - we do not have the transport infrastructure to cope with what we drag in already, imagine another 20,000 bedlam
Post by: Des Little on June 20, 2022, 12:13:24 PM
Post by: algy on June 20, 2022, 04:38:41 PM
I don't think for a minute we'd sell out 60k regulalrly, but the transport infastructure cannot be the limiting factor in our growth. There has to be solutions and the club needs to work with BCC to find them.I find it very hard to believe that it's impossible to find a solution to get 60,000 people to & from a football stadium that's right next to the M6 & A38, is 5 minutes walk from a railway line 2 stops away from the centre of Birmingham, and maybe 15 minutes walk away from a second railway station.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 20, 2022, 05:29:49 PM
Exactly. It just needs the will to find it by all stakeholders.I don't think for a minute we'd sell out 60k regulalrly, but the transport infastructure cannot be the limiting factor in our growth. There has to be solutions and the club needs to work with BCC to find them.I find it very hard to believe that it's impossible to find a solution to get 60,000 people to & from a football stadium that's right next to the M6 & A38, is 5 minutes walk from a railway line 2 stops away from the centre of Birmingham, and maybe 15 minutes walk away from a second railway station.
Post by: Ads on June 20, 2022, 05:31:10 PM
We're far more likely to sell out 60,000 if we go through a period of selling out every week by adding 10,000 additional seats on and reducing supply to create additional demand for a Phase II. There's been a lot of elasticity in supply at Villa Park for most of my supporting life. Folks until 2019 didn't need a season ticket per se, as you could guarantee a match ticket.
Purslow has been very successful in driving that demand up and reducing supply.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 21, 2022, 09:20:46 AM
We wouldn't sell out 60,000 if we went from 42,000 and added 18,000 on.
We're far more likely to sell out 60,000 if we go through a period of selling out every week by adding 10,000 additional seats on and reducing supply to create additional demand for a Phase II. There's been a lot of elasticity in supply at Villa Park for most of my supporting life. Folks until 2019 didn't need a season ticket per se, as you could guarantee a match ticket.
Purslow has been very successful in driving that demand up and reducing supply.
... and improving the quality on the pitch and winning something.\
EDIT not even necessarily winning something. Getting into the Champions League a couple of times would probably influence attendances more than, say, winning the Carabou Cup (yes, I know, i too would choose silverware over Europe but that's just the way football is).
Post by: Ads on June 21, 2022, 10:54:55 AM
We wouldn't sell out 60,000 if we went from 42,000 and added 18,000 on.
We're far more likely to sell out 60,000 if we go through a period of selling out every week by adding 10,000 additional seats on and reducing supply to create additional demand for a Phase II. There's been a lot of elasticity in supply at Villa Park for most of my supporting life. Folks until 2019 didn't need a season ticket per se, as you could guarantee a match ticket.
Purslow has been very successful in driving that demand up and reducing supply.
... and improving the quality on the pitch and winning something.\
EDIT not even necessarily winning something. Getting into the Champions League a couple of times would probably influence attendances more than, say, winning the Carabou Cup (yes, I know, i too would choose silverware over Europe but that's just the way football is).
Absolutely it would help. But we had our 4th highest average attendance and highest in 72 years having a pretty mediocre at best season down in 14th.
Post by: LeeB on June 21, 2022, 11:34:05 AM
Obviously we're not at those levels yet but here we are, so what's motivating it? General Premier League attendances are increasing it seems, but not that much more relatively. The 'resurgance', coming back from the doldrums always helps, we have a sense of purpose after years (decades) of drift.
But as much as anything I think it's the sense that we're a serious, well run club from thefor probably the first time in my lifetime, and that finally we may actually compete at the level we all feel we should be.
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 21, 2022, 11:43:36 AM
We wouldn't sell out 60,000 if we went from 42,000 and added 18,000 on.
We're far more likely to sell out 60,000 if we go through a period of selling out every week by adding 10,000 additional seats on and reducing supply to create additional demand for a Phase II. There's been a lot of elasticity in supply at Villa Park for most of my supporting life. Folks until 2019 didn't need a season ticket per se, as you could guarantee a match ticket.
Purslow has been very successful in driving that demand up and reducing supply.
... and improving the quality on the pitch and winning something.\
EDIT not even necessarily winning something. Getting into the Champions League a couple of times would probably influence attendances more than, say, winning the Carabou Cup (yes, I know, i too would choose silverware over Europe but that's just the way football is).
Absolutely it would help. But we had our 4th highest average attendance and highest in 72 years having a pretty mediocre at best season down in 14th.
If we have a relatively successful season this year (so challenging for Europe and/or cup win) this could be a watershed for the club's whole future. Like it or not, coverage of the Premier League is so all-consuming now that there is an entire generation of younger and more casual fans to whom it is the only thing of interest.
Having previously been of the opinion that we only needed to extend up to 50k or so for now, I can definitely see the value in going bigger if at all possible. I don't see us having any competition locally for that support in the next 5-10 years as a minimum, so there needs to be a way for casual supporters to be able to get to games. I'm a season ticket holder, but we are on the waiting list for 2 season tickets for my wife and daughter and have been forking out for memberships for the right to buy tickets for a few years now. We need ways for more casual fans to develop the habit of going to games - as it stands the increase up to 50k will only satisfy those like me who are currently on the waiting list.
Post by: john e on June 21, 2022, 05:06:00 PM
Years ago when I was asked if I had a season ticket my stock answer was no I don’t need one
You could go to any game you wanted as a normal member
We were always one of the lowest of the bigger clubs for season ticket uptake as I’ve always assumed because of the walk up by The fact we are locally supported mainly by people living in the Midlands
So what’s changed to have such a massive waiting list
we haven’t finished in the top half of the Premier League for 10 years ffs so you can’t say there is Thousands of glory hunters jumping on the bandwagon
I’m glad we’re here and selling out every week but I don’t know why it’s happened so quickly
I became a season ticket holder three seasons ago when we came up because of Kid pressure
Best thing they ever made me do
Post by: RamboandBruno on June 21, 2022, 05:34:04 PM
I wonder what has happened to cause the 20,000 waiting list
Years ago when I was asked if I had a season ticket my stock answer was no I don’t need one
You could go to any game you wanted as a normal member
We were always one of the lowest of the bigger clubs for season ticket uptake as I’ve always assumed because of the walk up by The fact we are locally supported mainly by people living in the Midlands
So what’s changed to have such a massive waiting list
we haven’t finished in the top half of the Premier League for 10 years ffs so you can’t say there is Thousands of glory hunters jumping on the bandwagon
I’m glad we’re here and selling out every week but I don’t know why it’s happened so quickly
I became a season ticket holder three seasons ago when we came up because of Kid pressure
Best thing they ever made me do
I think the Grealish/Smith factor was huge and then maybe the novelty of playing premier league after 3 years away, especially for teenagers who were quite young when we went down. Also, dunno about you, but most of my time going down the Villa, other than the years of struggle in the mid 80s, we’ve flitted around the 25-30k mark and like you say always been able to buy a ticket on the day. I know amongst a lot i know over the last 3 years, theres been a growing ‘need to renew or we wont be able to go factor’, the drums are beating.
And good owners raising expectation, lots of factors
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 21, 2022, 05:54:39 PM
Post by: Border villan on June 21, 2022, 06:17:20 PM
those bloody lower mid table glory hunters grrrrrrr
Must confess to being a glory hunter for over 60 years and nothing to show for it except the First Division Championship, European Cup and a couple of League Cups. Plus Europa Super Cup? Don’t know why any of us bother.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 21, 2022, 06:29:06 PM
Which I know doesn’t sit with several years circling the plug hole being a big warning not to do so.
Slight tangent but it is pretty shocking we have not finished in the top half of the premier league for an entire decade.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 21, 2022, 06:32:20 PM
We have a very large fan base.
Post by: gpbarr on June 21, 2022, 06:37:49 PM
That’s driving interest, revenue, and fan renewal. And long may it continue.
Post by: RamboandBruno on June 21, 2022, 06:44:24 PM
For most of the period between 1995-2018 we were poorly run and governed - there is no doubt that the new owners, Smith, and a Purslow put us back on the map not just in terms PL football but also PL mentality.
That’s driving interest, revenue, and fan renewal. And long may it continue.
Don't forget the once in generational talent that was the rat boy
Post by: DB on June 21, 2022, 07:07:12 PM
For most of the period between 1995-2018 we were poorly run and governed - there is no doubt that the new owners, Smith, and a Purslow put us back on the map not just in terms PL football but also PL mentality.
That’s driving interest, revenue, and fan renewal. And long may it continue.
The stint in the championship and promotion galvanised a lot of fans & created new hope, plus a well run club brings a lot of positive vibes.
Post by: john e on June 21, 2022, 08:36:01 PM
Yes there’s lots of reasons but that’s a mighty big jump And change of circumstance
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 21, 2022, 09:22:34 PM
Post by: john e on June 21, 2022, 09:24:03 PM
The hype around the Premier League is absolutely huge, and growing. It’s the world league. I think that’s a large part of it.
Yeah I think that’s the nail
Premier League is taking over the world
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 21, 2022, 09:26:21 PM
We still went from not being able to shift all our season tickets to initially a 8000 waiting list for the first time in our history I think
Yes there’s lots of reasons but that’s a mighty big jump And change of circumstance
Not just us, look at Tottenham, West Ham, Everton, Leeds. All get a full house every week despite not having won anything for years. The league has got better at marketing itself and so, belatedly, have Villa. Once the demand comes, so does the FOMO. Supporters know they have to attend regularly to be able to attend at all. The old days when a lot of fans would pick and choose their games and we'd get 40,000 for Man U then 15,000 for Wimbledon are gone.
Post by: eamonn on June 22, 2022, 12:32:35 AM
After a lost decade we suddenly weren't just winning all the time, we also had swagger.
Post by: AV82EC on June 22, 2022, 08:32:52 AM
Post by: LeeB on June 22, 2022, 11:44:40 AM
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
Post by: The Edge on June 22, 2022, 11:52:28 AM
Should be aiming for nothing less than this:The top part of the stands have no view of the pitch due to it being sunken. Gigantic mirrors to show a reflection of the pitch is one solution but then there's the problem of sunlight reflecting off the mirrors and scorching the players like ants under a magnifying glass. To prevent this they will all have to play in giant sombreros. It works for me.
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
Post by: LeeB on June 22, 2022, 11:56:22 AM
Should be aiming for nothing less than this:The top part of the stands have no view of the pitch due to it being sunken. Gigantic mirrors to show a reflection of the pitch is one solution but then there's the problem of sunlight reflecting off the mirrors and scorching the players like ants under a magnifying glass. To prevent this they will all have to play in giant sombreros. It works for me.
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
We just need to get him to do it again as four separate stands
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 22, 2022, 11:58:27 AM
Should be aiming for nothing less than this:The top part of the stands have no view of the pitch due to it being sunken. Gigantic mirrors to show a reflection of the pitch is one solution but then there's the problem of sunlight reflecting off the mirrors and scorching the players like ants under a magnifying glass. To prevent this they will all have to play in giant sombreros. It works for me.
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
We just need to get him to do it again as four separate stands
We should at least be showing some ambition and planning for the future, with a 160,000 capacity North Stand.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 22, 2022, 12:46:35 PM
I think that was the giddiest with excitement I’d been watching Villa since Big Ron’s days. It was intoxicating.
that first summer when he joined and we sold Platt and signed everyone !!!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 22, 2022, 12:50:10 PM
I think that was the giddiest with excitement I’d been watching Villa since Big Ron’s days. It was intoxicating.
that first summer when he joined and we sold Platt and signed everyone !!!
Fuck, though, that period was so exciting.
Post by: LeeB on June 22, 2022, 12:55:30 PM
I think that was the giddiest with excitement I’d been watching Villa since Big Ron’s days. It was intoxicating.
that first summer when he joined and we sold Platt and signed everyone !!!
Fuck, though, that period was so exciting.
The first game merely fanned the flames
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 22, 2022, 01:09:23 PM
I think that was the giddiest with excitement I’d been watching Villa since Big Ron’s days. It was intoxicating.
that first summer when he joined and we sold Platt and signed everyone !!!
Fuck, though, that period was so exciting.
The first game merely fanned the flames
i loved Cyrille Regis
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on June 22, 2022, 06:22:15 PM
Should be aiming for nothing less than this:Given the set up at the Villa, can you imagine trying to get a beer at half-time, you would be gone for weeks! ;)
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
Post by: Toronto Villa on June 22, 2022, 06:42:37 PM
Should be aiming for nothing less than this:Given the set up at the Villa, can you imagine trying to get a beer at half-time, you would be gone for weeks! ;)
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
the blind and sight challenged will be delighted to know they will miss all of the very late goals we concede throwing away our 1-0 lead and losing 3-1
Post by: PeterWithe on June 22, 2022, 08:22:20 PM
Post by: Pete3206 on June 22, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
Should be aiming for nothing less than this:Given the set up at the Villa, can you imagine trying to get a beer at half-time, you would be gone for weeks! ;)
https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19 (https://twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1538891924165251073?t=9srvWMGDZ4cJKFQMbnHt_w&s=19)
You'd still be back sooner than a trip to the Founders bar in the Witton Upper.
Post by: Des Little on June 22, 2022, 10:34:30 PM
Post by: andyh on June 28, 2022, 07:18:15 AM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2022/june/28/aston-villa-launches-consultation-on-plans-for-the-expansion-of-villa-park/
Post by: Drummond on June 28, 2022, 07:35:54 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/0XyFzC7/790af280-f606-11ec-8a19-ad8df33877d4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0XyFzC7)
(https://i.ibb.co/R769wyD/79981750-f606-11ec-9b91-51931007387c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R769wyD)
(https://i.ibb.co/yfS9dxW/79543080-f606-11ec-8a19-ad8df33877d4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yfS9dxW)
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 28, 2022, 07:48:59 AM
Post by: Dave P on June 28, 2022, 07:49:14 AM
This is a very exciting update.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 28, 2022, 07:49:15 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on June 28, 2022, 07:50:47 AM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 28, 2022, 07:58:17 AM
That’s second picture. Is that a Boxpark style venue? That would be ace but they’d need to market it well on non matchdays.
This is a very exciting update.
Would there be demand for a gig venue in that area of town? A few have popped up in London (Lafayette/Omera?truman Brewery) where there’s decent street food and a small gig venue bolted on.
Post by: nigel on June 28, 2022, 08:15:05 AM
Interesting that in the artists impressions there doesnt appear to be a Witton Lane anymore.
And the new crest is on the walls 😂
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 28, 2022, 08:20:54 AM
Interesting that in the artists impressions there doesnt appear to be a Witton Lane anymore.
And the new crest is on the walls 😂
And it seems they've sensibly drafted Risso in to design it!
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 08:22:28 AM
Post by: London Villan on June 28, 2022, 08:25:48 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 28, 2022, 08:25:49 AM
Post by: London Villan on June 28, 2022, 08:30:47 AM
Post by: john e on June 28, 2022, 08:31:01 AM
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2022, 08:33:19 AM
Interesting that in the artists impressions there doesnt appear to be a Witton Lane anymore.
And the new crest is on the walls 😂
And it seems they've sensibly drafted Risso in to design it!
I wasn't available so got my one year old to fill in.
Post by: nigel on June 28, 2022, 08:33:34 AM
For anyone who hasnt seen it there is a 5 min interview about it on FB with Purslow.
Didn’t give much away, but said it will be wider, deeper, corners filled in.
Very much what we thought anyway.
Exciting all the same.
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 28, 2022, 08:34:57 AM
Overall it's pretty much everything we could have hoped for - get on with it ASAP!
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 28, 2022, 08:48:49 AM
Post by: Ger Regan on June 28, 2022, 08:51:15 AM
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 08:56:28 AM
Bollocks I filled in the survey and forgot to request a gable.
As long as you put down the monorail, heated seats and waitress service it's fine.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 08:57:59 AM
Post by: Beard82 on June 28, 2022, 09:01:01 AM
I’m also looking forward to saying how they should have done it differently after it is built
Post by: Nev on June 28, 2022, 09:02:04 AM
Post by: darren woolley on June 28, 2022, 09:02:48 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 09:02:56 AM
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 09:09:42 AM
It only mentioned wrapping the lower corners - surerly that's absolutely fine? It sounds like it will link very closely to the Trinity. Maybe leaving the prospect of a revised Witton in due course? Perhaps the closure of Witton lane is with that in mind?
Yeah that's what I think, and it's very interesting if so. They must have gone in with big plans to the social redevelopment side of things if they've got the nod to close it off.
Post by: JD on June 28, 2022, 09:10:56 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 09:14:03 AM
I think it looks bloody amazing
I’m also looking forward to saying how they should have done it differently after it is built
let’s not wait 😃
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 09:21:44 AM
Post by: London Villan on June 28, 2022, 09:25:15 AM
Post by: john e on June 28, 2022, 09:28:51 AM
I’ve been going to Villa Park for donkeys years from the spaghetti junction Side of the ground and the whole area has been redeveloped or is being redeveloped anyway
It’s a massive business Park now with big warehouses And logistics centres, It totally changed over the last 10 years
A lot of the flats and houses have been flattened and built over so The functionality of the new stadium end outside of match days will still mostly be from people travelling in
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 28, 2022, 09:29:56 AM
I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
They’ll be using the Brown wrinkly tin that covered the Holte that Doug got on the cheap. That wasn’t in use too long so should be okay.
Post by: algy on June 28, 2022, 09:32:44 AM
That’s second picture. Is that a Boxpark style venue? That would be ace but they’d need to market it well on non matchdays.I think it could work well, actually. Football equivalent of a soft play - I'd imagine it'd do well in school holidays, weekend days when we weren't at home, maybe some lighter use weekday evenings after school. Can see it working really well, actually.
This is a very exciting update.
The Witton Lane plans are intriguing - particularly the lack of Witton Lane, and "Villa Way" running behind the North Stand. Possibly the decision's been to allow partial closure of Witton Lane, in exchange for partially opening an alternative route between Station Road and Trinity Road?
In honesty, I had hoped for a proper 'statement' stand for the North Stand - something that'd have blown the old Trinity Road stand out of the water - but it looks quite bland to me. Imagine the details could make it, though.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 28, 2022, 09:32:56 AM
That’s second picture. Is that a Boxpark style venue? That would be ace but they’d need to market it well on non matchdays.
This is a very exciting update.
Would there be demand for a gig venue in that area of town? A few have popped up in London (Lafayette/Omera?truman Brewery) where there’s decent street food and a small gig venue bolted on.
They mentioned it at the last FCG but gigs are way down the list of priorities.
Post by: Villan82 on June 28, 2022, 09:33:15 AM
The existing Trinity was built with the option for it to wrap around the corner, but I'm sure in the 20+ years it's been there building tech has changed.
The new trinity went up very quickly. I think it took about 7 months in total.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 28, 2022, 09:35:36 AM
It sounds like there is a big plan to increase revenue outside of match days, and I like how they are talking about a walkway connecting Aston Hall, as that will encourage tourists visiting it to eat and drink at Villa Park.
I noticed that in the video, CP is now talking about getting approval mid-2023 and breaking ground a few months after, so that's now pushed back from starting the end of next season. But then the timelines are always in flux before you have approval.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 28, 2022, 09:37:42 AM
Post by: The Edge on June 28, 2022, 09:38:00 AM
Post by: Villan82 on June 28, 2022, 09:39:44 AM
That’s second picture. Is that a Boxpark style venue? That would be ace but they’d need to market it well on non matchdays.
This is a very exciting update.
In honesty, I had hoped for a proper 'statement' stand for the North Stand - something that'd have blown the old Trinity Road stand out of the water - but it looks quite bland to me. Imagine the details could make it, though.
All the roofs at Villa Park were brought down or up to be in line with the old North Stand. The Witton Lane when it was exactly in line with the old North Stand and both the Holte roof (front quarter or so) and Trinity roofs were sloped down to match.
From the drawing their, this new stand totally dwarfs the Witton lane which looks tiny in that drawing.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 09:41:46 AM
I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
They’ll be using the Brown wrinkly tin that covered the Holte that Doug got on the cheap. That wasn’t in use too long so
should be okay.
dont forget the red stripe
Post by: john e on June 28, 2022, 09:41:48 AM
I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
That Luxure brown will be all the rage in 2040
We’ve always been ahead of our time
Post by: Des Little on June 28, 2022, 09:42:11 AM
Post by: The Edge on June 28, 2022, 09:44:29 AM
The filling in of corners…wasn’t this an issue in the past regarding pitch aeration? They may have overcome this with the design or it’s less of an issue now given the type of surface we now use.Filling in of corners is no longer an issue with regards to the condition of the playing surface. There's plenty of bowl shaped stadiums in the country nowadays and the pitches are superb.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 09:53:42 AM
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 28, 2022, 09:53:59 AM
My biggest wish from this redevelopment is that someone cleans or replaces the panel top left of the Holte End stand roof as you look at it from the pitch. It stands out like a rotten tooth.
Hasn't it always been like that due to the same right to light issue that affects the height of the Witton Lane stand. It's something that has always bugged me too - if that panel has to be transparent then why not just the whole beam, rather than cladding it up to that one point?
Post by: Flamingo Lane on June 28, 2022, 09:55:00 AM
Post by: nigel on June 28, 2022, 10:12:55 AM
I don’t know what figures you’d need for it to be worthwhile, but I’m pretty sure that it would be well attended
Post by: Martin Carruthers on June 28, 2022, 10:17:53 AM
How about a huge screen, 2 or 3 times bigger than what we’ve already got, and open up an end for all our away games?.
I don’t know what figures you’d need for it to be worthwhile, but I’m pretty sure that it would be well attended
Not sure they'd be allowed to screen 3pm games.
Post by: The Man With A Stick on June 28, 2022, 10:21:08 AM
The existing Trinity was built with the option for it to wrap around the corner, but I'm sure in the 20+ years it's been there building tech has changed.
Forward planning by Doug? That must be a first.
Post by: London Villan on June 28, 2022, 10:22:03 AM
Post by: Stu on June 28, 2022, 10:24:44 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 10:27:59 AM
I get he comes accross as a bit smarmy, but he also comes accross as massively competant, not something I ever felt about Ellis.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 28, 2022, 10:31:00 AM
How about a huge screen, 2 or 3 times bigger than what we’ve already got, and open up an end for all our away games?.
I don’t know what figures you’d need for it to be worthwhile, but I’m pretty sure that it would be well attended
Not sure they'd be allowed to screen 3pm games.
They've put that in as a potential facility in the Villa Live bit. The consultation survey specifically asks if that would encourage you to visit on non-home match days.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on June 28, 2022, 10:40:48 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2022, 10:42:28 AM
He mentioned the stand is too narrow - and it is, there is considerable unused space either side of it.
Does he mean by filling the gaps: a standalone stand but much wider that what is there now, OR a stand which will physically connect with the Trinity and Witton?
If it is the latter, I can't see how connecting a three tier stand on one side with a two tiered one on the other would not look like a bit of a dogs dinner.
It'd basically look like any other existing stadium refreshed and enlargened in recent times. Like, shudder, Old Trafford.
What I hope they do is something that maintains Villa Park as special - it has somehow managed to remain that way despite the Ellis years, we need to keep it that way, otherwise a trip to Villa Park will have about as much mystique and 'feeling' about it as a trip to whatever Leicester call their stadium these days.
A box park and all that other stuff is great, too, as is the expanding the corporate offering, that's all fine, but it has to be done in such a way that Villa Park remains different.
Post by: Nunkin1965 on June 28, 2022, 10:44:39 AM
Only comment I added to the survey was that this new stand, or the Witton Lane stand, needs to be named after Ron Saunders.
I think we need a stunning statue of the great man.
Post by: Drummond on June 28, 2022, 10:47:30 AM
Bollocks I filled in the survey and forgot to request a gable.
As long as you put down the monorail, heated seats and (topless) waitress service it's fine.
Edited for Brazilian Villan
Post by: The Edge on June 28, 2022, 10:50:17 AM
My biggest wish from this redevelopment is that someone cleans or replaces the panel top left of the Holte End stand roof as you look at it from the pitch. It stands out like a rotten tooth.And another thing that grinds my gears about the Holte End is that corner between the Holte and the DE. It's an ugly misshapen mess with several seats from which you can't even see the pitch.
Post by: AV82EC on June 28, 2022, 10:51:30 AM
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 28, 2022, 11:13:55 AM
As for the new stand i am sure naming rights will form part of the costing to create it
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 11:16:46 AM
They have to do something about the traffic management on Tame road after the game - it takes forever to get away due to cars feeding in from all the side roads
As for the new stand i am sure naming rights will form part of the costing to create it
The North Face Stand
Post by: Martyn Smith on June 28, 2022, 11:16:48 AM
It's on BBC Football today.
I did the survey and asked for escalators or lifts to the top of The Trinity. Me and the wife, both in our 50s, were utterly knackered by the time we got to our seats last time we were in the Upper TS...
Is there any word of safe standing being introduced anywhere?...
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 11:24:03 AM
I wonder what he meant by filling in the corners.It will definitely connect with the Trinity, but as far as I can tell the seats will only wrap on the lover levels - this is from the survey and refers to a connected lower bowl.
He mentioned the stand is too narrow - and it is, there is considerable unused space either side of it.
Does he mean by filling the gaps: a standalone stand but much wider that what is there now, OR a stand which will physically connect with the Trinity and Witton?
If it is the latter, I can't see how connecting a three tier stand on one side with a two tiered one on the other would not look like a bit of a dogs dinner.
It'd basically look like any other existing stadium refreshed and enlargened in recent times. Like, shudder, Old Trafford.
What I hope they do is something that maintains Villa Park as special - it has somehow managed to remain that way despite the Ellis years, we need to keep it that way, otherwise a trip to Villa Park will have about as much mystique and 'feeling' about it as a trip to whatever Leicester call their stadium these days.
A box park and all that other stuff is great, too, as is the expanding the corporate offering, that's all fine, but it has to be done in such a way that Villa Park remains different.
We know from the survey that match-day atmosphere and retaining the traditions of Villa Park are very important to fans. We want the new North Stand to have a distinct identity to maintain the history of four separate stands, whilst also enhancing the views for fans out of each corner by creating a connected lower bowl.
Post by: itbrvilla on June 28, 2022, 11:25:42 AM
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 11:27:06 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61965353Definitely no safe standing in the new North. I think this will be all about premium seasts and hospitality. As and when safe standing comes it will surely be Holte lower?
It's on BBC Football today.
I did the survey and asked for escalators or lifts to the top of The Trinity. Me and the wife, both in our 50s, were utterly knackered by the time we got to our seats last time we were in the Upper TS...
Is there any word of safe standing being introduced anywhere?...
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 11:27:26 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 28, 2022, 11:28:30 AM
I'll be honest, whilst it is exciting to see the evolution of Villa Park, I do worry about how we compete commercially with other PL clubs. I feel the, location unfortunately will indefinitely impact on that, unless there is significant investment in the area (I can't see that happening any time soon). Having the stadium near to the city centre or Jewellery Quarter for example would allow continual access to a significant portion of the city's population who could use the facilities more frequently (e.g. bars, gym, cinema/entertainment venues, conference/training facilities). I know that this is offset buy a significant investment (i.e. TH Stadium was £1bn!!!) but I just cant see us catching up with commercial revenue unless there is a real significant change/investment in the local area and infrastructure which I cannot see happening.Have you seen where WHL is located or Anfield or the Tax Payer stadium. There are not many grounds that are located in a city centre.
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 11:31:14 AM
With an eventual plan to get to 60,000 , where would we put a further 10000?I'd guess filling in the upper corners (this will be drip fed to be more acepted by fans), connecting Holte and Trinity and filling in those corners too (possibly re routing Trinity Road a bit if the current planners are more collaborative) and a new Witton stand.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2022, 11:33:23 AM
As long as you put down the monorail, heated seats and (topless) waitress service it's fine.
Edited for Brazilian Villan
Nah, sometimes less is more and topless isn't necessarily sexier, claret and blue 'Hooters' style uniforms will be fine.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 28, 2022, 11:40:20 AM
I'll be honest, whilst it is exciting to see the evolution of Villa Park, I do worry about how we compete commercially with other PL clubs. I feel the, location unfortunately will indefinitely impact on that, unless there is significant investment in the area (I can't see that happening any time soon). Having the stadium near to the city centre or Jewellery Quarter for example would allow continual access to a significant portion of the city's population who could use the facilities more frequently (e.g. bars, gym, cinema/entertainment venues, conference/training facilities). I know that this is offset buy a significant investment (i.e. TH Stadium was £1bn!!!) but I just cant see us catching up with commercial revenue unless there is a real significant change/investment in the local area and infrastructure which I cannot see happening.Have you seen where WHL is located or Anfield or the Tax Payer stadium. There are not many grounds that are located in a city centre.
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
The new WHL was largely justified by the anticipated income from NFL games. As the second city could Villa jump on that bandwagon?
I’m sure the demand would be there but we’d look pretty stupid if we did the development and a franchise permanently (and exclusively) moved to WHL.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 28, 2022, 11:46:38 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61965353Definitely no safe standing in the new North. I think this will be all about premium seasts and hospitality. As and when safe standing comes it will surely be Holte lower?
It's on BBC Football today.
I did the survey and asked for escalators or lifts to the top of The Trinity. Me and the wife, both in our 50s, were utterly knackered by the time we got to our seats last time we were in the Upper TS...
Is there any word of safe standing being introduced anywhere?...
More likely Witton Lane Lower if it ever gets rebuilt, as the rule is you can only have safe standing if it is also available to away fans.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 28, 2022, 11:48:06 AM
I'll be honest, whilst it is exciting to see the evolution of Villa Park, I do worry about how we compete commercially with other PL clubs. I feel the, location unfortunately will indefinitely impact on that, unless there is significant investment in the area (I can't see that happening any time soon). Having the stadium near to the city centre or Jewellery Quarter for example would allow continual access to a significant portion of the city's population who could use the facilities more frequently (e.g. bars, gym, cinema/entertainment venues, conference/training facilities). I know that this is offset buy a significant investment (i.e. TH Stadium was £1bn!!!) but I just cant see us catching up with commercial revenue unless there is a real significant change/investment in the local area and infrastructure which I cannot see happening.Have you seen where WHL is located or Anfield or the Tax Payer stadium. There are not many grounds that are located in a city centre.
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
The new WHL was largely justified by the anticipated income from NFL games. As the second city could Villa jump on that bandwagon?
I’m sure the demand would be there but we’d look pretty stupid if we did the development and a franchise permanently (and exclusively) moved to WHL.
I think you'd need to hold at least 60,000, and have massive dressing rooms (NFL teams can have around 80 players/officials and there are loads of match officials, too). Not impossible but expensive.
Post by: DeKuip on June 28, 2022, 11:50:16 AM
I can see a bloke in a jester hat, they need to cut that shit out immediately.The jester hats were the first thing that caught my eye, maybe some kind of inner fear from childhood. Also, good luck to anyone trying to get one of those plywood flags into the ground!
As I always approach from Lichfield Rd it’s a long time since I was round by the Witton End - and my only vague recollection of using Witton Station is of entering by the bridge just down from the island. Is that drawing suggesting entrance/exit closer to the ground (left of station on the picture) and if so is that already the case or something new in the plans?
Post by: olaftab on June 28, 2022, 11:55:14 AM
More likely Witton Lane Lower if it ever gets rebuilt, as the rule is you can only have safe standing if it is also available to away fans.I think away fans can stand safely in the coach park.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 28, 2022, 12:07:08 PM
I can see a bloke in a jester hat, they need to cut that shit out immediately.Also, good luck to anyone trying to get one of those plywood flags into the ground!
&t=188s
Post by: Dazvillain on June 28, 2022, 12:25:59 PM
He said we’re filling the corners in thenOnly with trinity initially is how I’ve read it….. no mention of DE stand in initial phase ? Plus players tunnel moved in corner or trinity/ north so won’t be completely filled in
Post by: UK Redsox on June 28, 2022, 12:30:49 PM
I'll be honest, whilst it is exciting to see the evolution of Villa Park, I do worry about how we compete commercially with other PL clubs. I feel the, location unfortunately will indefinitely impact on that, unless there is significant investment in the area (I can't see that happening any time soon). Having the stadium near to the city centre or Jewellery Quarter for example would allow continual access to a significant portion of the city's population who could use the facilities more frequently (e.g. bars, gym, cinema/entertainment venues, conference/training facilities). I know that this is offset buy a significant investment (i.e. TH Stadium was £1bn!!!) but I just cant see us catching up with commercial revenue unless there is a real significant change/investment in the local area and infrastructure which I cannot see happening.Have you seen where WHL is located or Anfield or the Tax Payer stadium. There are not many grounds that are located in a city centre.
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
The new WHL was largely justified by the anticipated income from NFL games. As the second city could Villa jump on that bandwagon?
I’m sure the demand would be there but we’d look pretty stupid if we did the development and a franchise permanently (and exclusively) moved to WHL.
The new Spurs stadium was purpose built for American Football in conjunction with the NFL. If a team does move full time to London (or an expansion team is awarded), that's where the games will be.
As great as the Spurs stadium is, no way should Villa be building a NFL spec stadium
Post by: KevinGage on June 28, 2022, 12:38:29 PM
I'll be honest, whilst it is exciting to see the evolution of Villa Park, I do worry about how we compete commercially with other PL clubs. I feel the, location unfortunately will indefinitely impact on that, unless there is significant investment in the area (I can't see that happening any time soon). Having the stadium near to the city centre or Jewellery Quarter for example would allow continual access to a significant portion of the city's population who could use the facilities more frequently (e.g. bars, gym, cinema/entertainment venues, conference/training facilities). I know that this is offset buy a significant investment (i.e. TH Stadium was £1bn!!!) but I just cant see us catching up with commercial revenue unless there is a real significant change/investment in the local area and infrastructure which I cannot see happening.Have you seen where WHL is located or Anfield or the Tax Payer stadium. There are not many grounds that are located in a city centre.
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
The new WHL was largely justified by the anticipated income from NFL games. As the second city could Villa jump on that bandwagon?
I’m sure the demand would be there but we’d look pretty stupid if we did the development and a franchise permanently (and exclusively) moved to WHL.
I'd be more than happy for to see NSWE along with any other interested parties build a super duper 80,000 arena near New Street and have it available for Grid Iron, U2 concerts, Russell Howard gigs and all those other fun fun things. Maybe the odd Villa game too, at a push. When we play the plastics. Prevent them fouling up the true home of football.
But Villa Park should be reserved for football and football only.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 12:45:13 PM
But you want Villa to compete on the pitch with clubs who benefit from these additional revenue streams right?I'll be honest, whilst it is exciting to see the evolution of Villa Park, I do worry about how we compete commercially with other PL clubs. I feel the, location unfortunately will indefinitely impact on that, unless there is significant investment in the area (I can't see that happening any time soon). Having the stadium near to the city centre or Jewellery Quarter for example would allow continual access to a significant portion of the city's population who could use the facilities more frequently (e.g. bars, gym, cinema/entertainment venues, conference/training facilities). I know that this is offset buy a significant investment (i.e. TH Stadium was £1bn!!!) but I just cant see us catching up with commercial revenue unless there is a real significant change/investment in the local area and infrastructure which I cannot see happening.Have you seen where WHL is located or Anfield or the Tax Payer stadium. There are not many grounds that are located in a city centre.
Eitehrway, I'm excited to finally see so news on the new North Stand replacement as its been a long time overdue.
The new WHL was largely justified by the anticipated income from NFL games. As the second city could Villa jump on that bandwagon?
I’m sure the demand would be there but we’d look pretty stupid if we did the development and a franchise permanently (and exclusively) moved to WHL.
I'd be more than happy for to see NSWE along with any other interested parties build a super duper 80,000 arena near New Street and have it available for Grid Iron, U2 concerts, Russell Howard gigs and all those other fun fun things. Maybe the odd Villa game too, at a push. When we play the plastics. Prevent them fouling up the true home of football.
But Villa Park should be reserved for football and football only.
There's a big difference between stadium sharing with, say, an NFL team and hosting major events like gigs - which we should absolutely be looking to do.
Post by: cdbearsfan on June 28, 2022, 12:55:18 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 28, 2022, 01:04:42 PM
Post by: Ads on June 28, 2022, 01:06:10 PM
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on June 28, 2022, 01:11:37 PM
Andy Street seems supportive so presumably the local politicians are on board.He is a Villa fan, so that helps. UTV
Post by: AV82EC on June 28, 2022, 01:13:18 PM
Andy Street seems supportive so presumably the local politicians are on board.
Yep Finances Fernando Torres says they’ve consulted both BCC and WMCA.
Post by: john e on June 28, 2022, 01:29:34 PM
Andy Street seems supportive so presumably the local politicians are on board.
Purslow will be in his element when it comes to schmaltzing a few Counsellors and politicians
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 01:34:03 PM
Andy Street seems supportive so presumably the local politicians are on board.
Yep Finances Fernando Torres says they’ve consulted both BCC and WMCA.
WMCA insisted on accommodation as part of the development, to give local young men somewhere to stay, have a good meal, and do whatever they feel.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2022, 01:57:38 PM
Yep Finances Fernando Torres says they’ve consulted both BCC and WMCA.
WMCA insisted on accommodation as part of the development, to give local young men somewhere to stay, have a good meal, and do whatever they feel.
If it augurs a return to the late 70s/early 80s when we were at our zenith then I'm all for it.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2022, 02:08:47 PM
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/97a507a0-f659-11ec-9759-6b0e8dfd2e65.pdf
Shows the new North Stand wrapped into the Trinity.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2022, 02:12:42 PM
Quote
Fan experience – atmosphere is viewed as the most important aspect of a
match day. Improvements will include enhanced views from the stand, dedicated
entrances for home and away fans, and the retention of the four distinct stands
(a nod to our heritage)
Post by: Villan82 on June 28, 2022, 02:13:48 PM
I like what I see. It is going to utilise that space really well- wrapping into the Trinity while at the same time being sympathetic to the aesthetic of four distinct stands.
Post by: DrGonzo on June 28, 2022, 02:13:48 PM
North Stand was always going to be the first major overhaul and 'linked into' is the phrase, assume that means a corner stand, but from the drawings the new community hub structure may be joining them externally too? I'm sure that development will be helped politically by the promise of new jobs in the local community as well as the improvements to infrastructure mentioned, lighting etc.
50k should be enough to ensure some of the larger non-villa games will gravitate back to the Park also. Exciting times IMO!
Post by: paul_e on June 28, 2022, 02:16:44 PM
Post by: Villan82 on June 28, 2022, 02:20:03 PM
My favourite thing about that PDF is page 10 which completely removes Witton Lane being rebuilt and renamed from the timeline.
Spotted that!
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2022, 02:20:23 PM
Don't know if we all spotted it but there's a link to a PDF with more info on that consultation page on the OS.
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/97a507a0-f659-11ec-9759-6b0e8dfd2e65.pdf
Shows the new North Stand wrapped into the Trinity.
I think I put together less shoddy documents than that for my GCSE geography coursework.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 02:23:06 PM
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2022, 02:24:11 PM
Don't know if we all spotted it but there's a link to a PDF with more info on that consultation page on the OS.
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/97a507a0-f659-11ec-9759-6b0e8dfd2e65.pdf
Shows the new North Stand wrapped into the Trinity.
Notice Ellis's cut and shut job on the Witton Lane wasn't worthy in the significant developments. Too right.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 28, 2022, 02:24:13 PM
It's interesting that the new stand will connect with the Trinity, but not the Witton Lane stand. Tempting to think that means that stand could be earmarked for rebuilding at a later date as part of the 60k plan.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 02:31:06 PM
Don't know if we all spotted it but there's a link to a PDF with more info on that consultation page on the OS.
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/97a507a0-f659-11ec-9759-6b0e8dfd2e65.pdf
Shows the new North Stand wrapped into the Trinity.
Notice Ellis's cut and shut job on the Witton Lane wasn't worthy in the significant developments. Too right.
cut shut then cut again with a sprinkle of asbestos
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2022, 02:37:29 PM
It's interesting that the new stand will connect with the Trinity, but not the Witton Lane stand. Tempting to think that means that stand could be earmarked for rebuilding at a later date as part of the 60k plan.
That's exactly what I thought.
It's obviously the only side of the ground that would be done next, and as you said, the fact it connects into the Trinity but not the Witton is quite telling.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 28, 2022, 02:43:41 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 02:46:17 PM
So the 'Witton Lane' becomes the Witton Lane Stand.
Could they put another tier on there ?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2022, 02:48:50 PM
So the 'Witton Lane' becomes the Witton Lane Stand.
Could they put another tier on there ?
They'd just rebuild rather than try and add to it.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 28, 2022, 02:53:46 PM
So the 'Witton Lane' becomes the Witton Lane Stand.
Could they put another tier on there ?
if Witton Lane as it is now is going then lower and upper could be made deeper with a bit of reconfiguration and without the need to demolish and start again. Whether that can add an additional 10,000 seats is debatable.
Post by: Gary Penrice on June 28, 2022, 03:05:49 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2022, 03:13:38 PM
Post by: algy on June 28, 2022, 03:36:20 PM
"Saunders Entertainment Xperierience" is utterly horrific. The new North Stand needs to be named after him, nothing else does him justice.Rename the Witton Lane stand to the Barton-Saunders Stand, and call the 'Villa Live' complex "Ellisium", with that mini pitch inside called the "Ellisian Field".
Post by: Clampy on June 28, 2022, 03:40:22 PM
Post by: paul_e on June 28, 2022, 04:01:28 PM
"Saunders Entertainment Xperierience" is utterly horrific. The new North Stand needs to be named after him, nothing else does him justice.Rename the Witton Lane stand to the Barton-Saunders Stand, and call the 'Villa Live' complex "Ellisium", with that mini pitch inside called the "Ellisian Field".
and turn 1 corner of it into a shop?
Post by: wittonwarrior on June 28, 2022, 05:53:54 PM
Post by: Ads on June 28, 2022, 06:07:43 PM
From the north west its 1:40 minutes drive, I park for free and walk for 25 minutes.
Post by: eamonn on June 28, 2022, 06:08:55 PM
My favourite thing about that PDF is page 10 which completely removes Witton Lane being rebuilt and renamed from the timeline.
Spotted that!
Isn't that...bad? ie an admission that it will take years more
Post by: Chris Smith on June 28, 2022, 06:14:15 PM
I go everywhere and find my trip to Villa Park no more or less complicated than anywhere else.
From the north west its 1:40 minutes drive, I park for free and walk for 25 minutes.
Plus there are two train stations in proximity to the ground. There have been issues getting away from VP this season but that’s been hugely amplified by poor management at the platforms. If the new developments encourage more people to hang around after the game then that will help by staggering departure times.
Post by: Rico on June 28, 2022, 06:16:33 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/93gW7SW/Screenshot-20220628-181136.png) (https://ibb.co/93gW7SW)
Post by: olaftab on June 28, 2022, 06:19:04 PM
Clearly as we have a ladies team we will need to cater for young women as well and that should provide natural avenues for residents to relax post training.Yep Finances Fernando Torres says they’ve consulted both BCC and WMCA.
WMCA insisted on accommodation as part of the development, to give local young men somewhere to stay, have a good meal, and do whatever they feel.
If it augurs a return to the late 70s/early 80s when we were at our zenith then I'm all for it.
Post by: olaftab on June 28, 2022, 06:20:50 PM
I am sure a dinner or two have been had at the Varanasi and Lasan with the political elite of Aston and Witton.Andy Street seems supportive so presumably the local politicians are on board.
Purslow will be in his element when it comes to schmaltzing a few Counsellors and politicians
Post by: Villan82 on June 28, 2022, 06:22:12 PM
My favourite thing about that PDF is page 10 which completely removes Witton Lane being rebuilt and renamed from the timeline.
Spotted that!
Isn't that...bad? ie an admission that it will take years more
You misunderstand. They do a timeline of the ground's history: Holte rebuilt in 1994 for example. They left out the rebuild and renaming of the Witton Lane Stand in 1993!
Post by: wittonwarrior on June 28, 2022, 06:33:03 PM
I go everywhere and find my trip to Villa Park no more or less complicated than anywhere else.
From the north west its 1:40 minutes drive, I park for free and walk for 25 minutes.
Getting back to New Street on public transport is something else. I now tend to get a train to Lichfield TV rather than to NS.
Post by: FrankyH on June 28, 2022, 06:44:41 PM
I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
They’ll be using the Brown wrinkly tin that covered the Holte that Doug got on the cheap. That wasn’t in use too long so
should be okay.
dont forget the red stripe
Well done, a Ron Atkinson "Spotters Badge" © for that distant memory !
Post by: andyh on June 28, 2022, 06:50:11 PM
I will be interested to see if and when they can improve the facilities in The Doug Ellis Stand . It desperately needs some more space and upgradingIt struck me that it will soon be the oldest (and most poorly equipped) stand at VP.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2022, 06:51:29 PM
I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
They’ll be using the Brown wrinkly tin that covered the Holte that Doug got on the cheap. That wasn’t in use too long so
should be okay.
dont forget the red stripe
Well done, a Ron Atkinson "Spotters Badge" © for that distant memory !
Brown and red metal , this must have been end of line sale and Doug couldn’t resist 😃
Post by: Ads on June 28, 2022, 06:53:29 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 28, 2022, 07:06:43 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2022, 08:18:41 PM
Early plans I know, but if you look at the image showing the cross section of the new stand, lookimg beyond at the Trinity, it appears the 3rd tier has been extended forwards slightly in one part. You can also see a new upper corner bit which I presume will be a big exit point into new concourse.
The drawings on the stands will have next to no real relevance, they're just about massing and where the buildings will be, rather than what they look like at this stage.
Post by: UK Redsox on June 28, 2022, 08:42:55 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on June 28, 2022, 08:56:22 PM
Post by: Des Little on June 28, 2022, 09:08:59 PM
I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
They’ll be using the Brown wrinkly tin that covered the Holte that Doug got on the cheap. That wasn’t in use too long so
should be okay.
dont forget the red stripe
Well done, a Ron Atkinson "Spotters Badge" © for that distant memory !
Brown and red metal , this must have been end of line sale and Doug couldn’t resist 😃
Wasn’t Aston Manor Brewery (owned by HDE) also cladded in identical fashion at the same time?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2022, 09:15:13 PM
Don't know if we all spotted it but there's a link to a PDF with more info on that consultation page on the OS.
https://s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/gc-media-assets.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/97a507a0-f659-11ec-9759-6b0e8dfd2e65.pdf
Shows the new North Stand wrapped into the Trinity.
I think I put together less shoddy documents than that for my GCSE geography coursework.
Yes, I was expecting a bit more tbh. However as PW pointed out, it's good to see the 4 separate stands explicitly mentioned (as a nod to our heritage) and that today's images won't bear much resemblance to what will be built.
I've no real experience of Boxparks so will defer to others' opinions on them. I would like it as far away from the stand as feasible and preferably in red brick (like the stand itself) rather than the black and white cladding I saw at Wembley. I'd also call it 'Aston Live' so it feels more a venue for the local community as well.
Post by: Ads on June 28, 2022, 09:22:07 PM
Would also create a decent atmosphere ahead of games.
Post by: hipkiss92 on June 28, 2022, 09:25:23 PM
Early days obviously, but although there is reference to transport issues in the consultation, there isn't much in what's been published to give clear indication as to how they may be resolved, and in particular the connectivity between VP and the city centre after a game.
If they're doing the pre-app now, I suspect a lot of that is still to be bottomed out through the transport assessment they'll have to do alongside the actual planning application. Then will come down to whether Villa themselves have to do anything (likely limited to public realm and minor junction improvements) or anything of a bigger scale through Section 106 funding which will be delivered by the local authorities.
Post by: eamonn on June 28, 2022, 09:33:06 PM
Those pictures look like a kid’s O’Level project.
Harsh. It's fuzzy and friendly looking.
Post by: eamonn on June 28, 2022, 09:33:39 PM
My favourite thing about that PDF is page 10 which completely removes Witton Lane being rebuilt and renamed from the timeline.
Spotted that!
Isn't that...bad? ie an admission that it will take years more
You misunderstand. They do a timeline of the ground's history: Holte rebuilt in 1994 for example. They left out the rebuild and renaming of the Witton Lane Stand in 1993!
Gotcha, ta!
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2022, 09:39:32 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2022, 10:34:15 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2022, 10:36:50 PM
Those pictures look like a kid’s O’Level project.
https://twitter.com/nickedmonds575/status/1541790198241058816 :)
Post by: Toronto Villa on June 28, 2022, 11:04:08 PM
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2022, 12:23:17 AM
The club have been engaging with BCC and WMRA. They’ve probably already had most of their pre-app engagement with the LPA, giving them enough confidence to put the scheme into the public domain. Consultation material is normally made to look less resolved than the design actually is, to imply flexibility, and avoid things looking fixed. If the images are a bit generic, there are less specifics for people to complain about. The cross section through the new stand is the only image rendered from CAD. The others are all hand sketches traced from the CAD model. I’d guess that the design isn’t going to change much from what is shown in that cross section, as there simply isn’t enough time before a late summer planning submission to do otherwise.
Based on this it looks as though the rear of the stand (including the entire upper tier) could be built before demolishing the existing stand, like Liverpool are currently doing with the Anfield Road End. 7,400 additional seats are mentioned, making an overall capacity of over 50,000, with a long-term aim for close to 60,000. I’m not entirely clear on current capacities, but I think the new stand would be about 14,500 seats, making the entire ground about 50,200. I’m a little underwhelmed, as I was (perhaps unrealistically) hoping that the long-term aim would be to exceed West Ham, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool etc. The new Witton End stand is the best opportunity to significantly increase capacity due to the relative lack of constraints. The Anfield Road End will apparently be about 16,000. I’m not aware of all of the issues, but these extra 1,500 seats might have made a long-term aim for above 60,000 possible.
Dealing with the public realm between the ground and the Brookvale Academy looks positive, creating more of a campus. There seems to be a sensible attempt to align the rear of the new stand with Station Road, which might be a limitation on the capacity. The Aston Live concept seems like a really good idea. I’m almost wondering if it is big enough though? If not, perhaps it can be enlarged later subject to demand.
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2022, 12:31:22 AM
The cross section of the stand looks decent but would hope it has some 'Villa Park' touches on the outside such as mosaics, stained glass and Holte type stairs rather than a more generic look like Anfield's Main Stand. https://twitter.com/Stuartlanky211/status/1541739866379243521/photo/1Yes, I'd like it to be distinctive in some way, rather than too generic. It looks better quality than the identikit new-build stadia, but I worry that red brick alone is just a bit lazy. The Witton Lane stand is red brick for example, but there isn't anything distinctive about it. I was thinking about a contemporary interpretation of the architecture of the Aston Lower Grounds buildings for example.
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2022, 01:00:17 AM
(https://open.http.mp.streamamg.com/p/3000221/sp/300022100/thumbnail/entry_id/0_mvqd7jum/version/100002/acv/202/width/640/height/379)
(https://image.architonic.com/imgArc/profile-1/4/5204745/grimshaw-architects-profile.jpg)
Post by: eamonn on June 29, 2022, 01:10:34 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 29, 2022, 01:21:42 AM
Great sleuthing, and insight, FatSam.
Agreed, very interesting stuff.
Post by: nigel on June 29, 2022, 06:55:21 AM
FWIW I'd like the stand to be named 'The McGregor Stand' with his statue given pride of place on the proposed 'Villa Way'.
That’s a very good idea
Post by: algy on June 29, 2022, 07:00:52 AM
Yeah, I believe it was.I also hope the colouring of the stand indicates brickwork rather than brown cladding.
They’ll be using the Brown wrinkly tin that covered the Holte that Doug got on the cheap. That wasn’t in use too long so
should be okay.
dont forget the red stripe
Well done, a Ron Atkinson "Spotters Badge" © for that distant memory !
Brown and red metal , this must have been end of line sale and Doug couldn’t resist 😃
Wasn’t Aston Manor Brewery (owned by HDE) also cladded in identical fashion at the same time?
Post by: The Edge on June 29, 2022, 09:07:58 AM
Getting more events staged at Villa Park is surely one of the considerations - more concerts, Europa League final, international matches will all give us a big revenue boost given we don't really do any of these at the moment. The Villa Live venue will be important too - can see it being used for things like Darts and Snooker, these already take place in the exhibition hall at whatever Coventry/Wasps ground is called now.I already hate that name "Villa Live" it just seems so naff. Aston Arena? The Saunders Suite?
Post by: Dogtanian on June 29, 2022, 09:11:48 AM
Getting more events staged at Villa Park is surely one of the considerations - more concerts, Europa League final, international matches will all give us a big revenue boost given we don't really do any of these at the moment. The Villa Live venue will be important too - can see it being used for things like Darts and Snooker, these already take place in the exhibition hall at whatever Coventry/Wasps ground is called now.I already hate that name "Villa Live" it just seems so naff. Aston Arena? The Saunders Suite?
It's also an anagram of Villa Vile, which certain people will take much pleasure in. I didn't think about it when I completed mine, but maybe some of us who haven't already submitted their survey can mention the name.
Post by: The Edge on June 29, 2022, 09:29:01 AM
Villa Vile. Hadn't thought of that but you're right the small heath tramps will be all over that. Massive own goal. I've also already filled in the questionnaire so too late for me. I think this is something we need to get through to the club before it's too late but I don't know how we could do that.Getting more events staged at Villa Park is surely one of the considerations - more concerts, Europa League final, international matches will all give us a big revenue boost given we don't really do any of these at the moment. The Villa Live venue will be important too - can see it being used for things like Darts and Snooker, these already take place in the exhibition hall at whatever Coventry/Wasps ground is called now.I already hate that name "Villa Live" it just seems so naff. Aston Arena? The Saunders Suite?
It's also an anagram of Villa Vile, which certain people will take much pleasure in. I didn't think about it when I completed mine, but maybe some of us who haven't already submitted their survey can mention the name.
Post by: JD on June 29, 2022, 09:33:08 AM
Villa Vile. Hadn't thought of that but you're right the small heath tramps will be all over that. Massive own goal. I've also already filled in the questionnaire so too late for me. I think this is something we need to get through to the club before it's too late but I don't know how we could do that.Getting more events staged at Villa Park is surely one of the considerations - more concerts, Europa League final, international matches will all give us a big revenue boost given we don't really do any of these at the moment. The Villa Live venue will be important too - can see it being used for things like Darts and Snooker, these already take place in the exhibition hall at whatever Coventry/Wasps ground is called now.I already hate that name "Villa Live" it just seems so naff. Aston Arena? The Saunders Suite?
It's also an anagram of Villa Vile, which certain people will take much pleasure in. I didn't think about it when I completed mine, but maybe some of us who haven't already submitted their survey can mention the name.
Who cares what the inbreds think or say. Whatever Villa call it they will find something to call it derogatory, but I for one don't give give a s#*t what they say or do.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 29, 2022, 09:49:08 AM
It’s interesting that the club hasn’t identified the consultant team that it's working with. Purslow’s interview looks like it's being conducted in an architect’s meeting room. I genuinely don’t know which architect this belongs to, but my guess would be Grimshaw, based on the high-tech shelving in the background, and the model on the shelving, which looks like a cross section through the Waterloo Eurostar terminal. My opinion has always been that the club should appoint better quality consultants, and take their advice, rather than try to micro-manage the process like Doug did in the past. Whether or not you like their work, Grimshaw are a solid, high-quality practice.I was also hoping we'd push closer to 55k in the first phase, but to be fair they have said the longer term plan would be 60k although I'd guess we'll be looking at another 10 years for that?
The club have been engaging with BCC and WMRA. They’ve probably already had most of their pre-app engagement with the LPA, giving them enough confidence to put the scheme into the public domain. Consultation material is normally made to look less resolved than the design actually is, to imply flexibility, and avoid things looking fixed. If the images are a bit generic, there are less specifics for people to complain about. The cross section through the new stand is the only image rendered from CAD. The others are all hand sketches traced from the CAD model. I’d guess that the design isn’t going to change much from what is shown in that cross section, as there simply isn’t enough time before a late summer planning submission to do otherwise.
Based on this it looks as though the rear of the stand (including the entire upper tier) could be built before demolishing the existing stand, like Liverpool are currently doing with the Anfield Road End. 7,400 additional seats are mentioned, making an overall capacity of over 50,000, with a long-term aim for close to 60,000. I’m not entirely clear on current capacities, but I think the new stand would be about 14,500 seats, making the entire ground about 50,200. I’m a little underwhelmed, as I was (perhaps unrealistically) hoping that the long-term aim would be to exceed West Ham, Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool etc. The new Witton End stand is the best opportunity to significantly increase capacity due to the relative lack of constraints. The Anfield Road End will apparently be about 16,000. I’m not aware of all of the issues, but these extra 1,500 seats might have made a long-term aim for above 60,000 possible.
Dealing with the public realm between the ground and the Brookvale Academy looks positive, creating more of a campus. There seems to be a sensible attempt to align the rear of the new stand with Station Road, which might be a limitation on the capacity. The Aston Live concept seems like a really good idea. I’m almost wondering if it is big enough though? If not, perhaps it can be enlarged later subject to demand.
I suspect we are being limited by the strong fan push for seperate stands as opposed to filling in corners. It sounds like they'll fill in corners on the lower tier but not the upper, which will surely cost a few thousand seats?
Personally I'd have been ok with a horseshoe (with the Holte remaining stand alone) if it gave us the greater capacity, but we have a voiciferous traditioanalist fan base (not that I'm against tradition, I love out history, but I just want us to be as competitive as possible).
Post by: olaftab on June 29, 2022, 09:49:34 AM
Post by: Billy Walker on June 29, 2022, 09:58:58 AM
Getting more events staged at Villa Park is surely one of the considerations - more concerts, Europa League final, international matches will all give us a big revenue boost given we don't really do any of these at the moment. The Villa Live venue will be important too - can see it being used for things like Darts and Snooker, these already take place in the exhibition hall at whatever Coventry/Wasps ground is called now.I already hate that name "Villa Live" it just seems so naff. Aston Arena? The Saunders Suite?
I wonder if, long term, the idea is to get the venue sponsored? This could be a really savvy way of preserving the Villa Park name whilst banking a big sponsorship deal for the Club?
Post by: Des Little on June 29, 2022, 10:13:12 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 29, 2022, 10:15:36 AM
I already hate that name "Villa Live" it just seems so naff. Aston Arena? The Saunders Suite?
Not keen on "Villa Live" either, Aston Live, Aston Arcade, Aston Arena (if big enough) or Saunders Centre would be fine for me.
Or given it'll be a largely retail outlet how about "The Ellis Emporium"? ;)
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on June 29, 2022, 10:16:26 AM
I'm just sad they haven't gone with tradition and factored in a Granada Bingo hall behind the stand.
They should have incorporated the old bowling green and aquarium too.
Post by: eamonn on June 29, 2022, 10:19:24 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 29, 2022, 10:21:41 AM
Post by: LeeB on June 29, 2022, 10:37:32 AM
I'm just sad they haven't gone with tradition and factored in a Granada Bingo hall behind the stand.
They should have incorporated the old bowling green and aquarium too.
And a cinder track
Post by: Drummond on June 29, 2022, 10:44:56 AM
Villa Live is a bit Sky Sports News shouty.
One for the kids I reckon.
I remember working in Middlesbrough when Sunderland decided on the Stadium of Light name. Immediately became the Stadium of Shite.
It doesn't matter, Villa Live kind of says what it's all about.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 29, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 29, 2022, 10:52:47 AM
I've no problem with the name Villa Live tbh. It's not a massive own goal at all, who gives a fuck what Blues fans may call it?
yep I am pretty sure they have fires to put out back home
Post by: KevinGage on June 29, 2022, 11:23:25 AM
Let them carry on with the self immolation course they seem set on. Next season perhaps they'll only have one functioning stand, by 2025 - zero.
That's progress!
Post by: avfcdale on June 29, 2022, 12:02:00 PM
Post by: London Villan on June 29, 2022, 12:21:48 PM
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Post by: Dogtanian on June 29, 2022, 12:24:54 PM
I used to love the restaurant they had as part of their youth training scheme and ate there several times on non-match days as it was excellent. But when at work we were looking for somewhere to have a good meal and I suggested it, people wouldn't go because it was Aston Villa. In fact, one non-football supporter wouldn't go because her husband supports West Brom and it would apparently have been some sort of betrayal...
Football is very tribal and petty and if we want to maximise usage and revenue, and make it financially viable for whatever franchisees we expect to occupy it, we have to attract non-Villa fans.
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2022, 12:34:37 PM
However, I'm more keen for all the naming to reinforce the sense of place. We could move to an out-of-town identikit stadium and have a North stand, or Aston Live. What we can't recreate anywhere else is all of the history of this specific location. I think the stand should be the Witton End, as this is probably how it came to be known gradually, by the community of people who frequented it, rather than being named by an individual. If it has to be sponsored, which is the reality of modern football, then the [insert sponsor name] Witton End or similar would work for me.
The history of the site, from Aston Lower Grounds, the clock tower, the aquarium, the bowling green, the velodrome etc. is what makes it unique. Unfortunately the physical evidence has been completely obliterated, but the memory could be present in the way new facilities are named (and designed).
Post by: algy on June 29, 2022, 12:37:04 PM
I don't think it's a case of worrying what they think, the original point was that the name isn't fantastic and certainly not inviting to non-Villa fans.Are non-Villa fans going to make the link between "The Saunders Suite" (for example) and "Somewhere I can get a beer and hang around for an hour or so?", though?
I think the name's fine. There's a lot to be said for "it does what it says on the tin" type branding when it comes to things that people might not automatically associate with the club - e.g. obviously a football club has some kind of pitch to play on, but it's not obvious that there's (say) somewhere you can go for football-based entertainment on a non-matchday. It needs to be made really obvious IMO
Not sure if this has been posted?Looks pretty decent. Can see it working very, very well in terms of making Villa Park somewhere you'd visit 7 days a week (Rather than once a fortnight for part of the year).
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Post by: London Villan on June 29, 2022, 12:58:46 PM
Will it be a big enough attraction to drag people to what is a scruffy/unloved part of Birmingham?
With football rivalries being what they are, will it exclude a big proportion of the population who wouldn't want to visit the home of another club on a non-matchday.
Post by: SaddVillan on June 29, 2022, 01:15:32 PM
An excellent summary and analysis of where we stand in terms of growing our income and how it might affect fans - current and future, positively and negatively.
Post by: Concrete Tom on June 29, 2022, 01:24:34 PM
"More fans currently use Aston Station (65%) compared to Witton Station (35%), so we will be looking at how to better manage usage, queuing, and access to train services"
Can anyone local shed any light on why this might be the case? Is it just access to the Cross City Line?
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 29, 2022, 01:25:59 PM
Couple of musings about Villa Live...
Will it be a big enough attraction to drag people to what is a scruffy/unloved part of Birmingham?
With football rivalries being what they are, will it exclude a big proportion of the population who wouldn't want to visit the home of another club on a non-matchday.
It's low down the list of priorities but I can't see many people not wanting to see a band because of where the gig is.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 29, 2022, 01:26:57 PM
I doubt very much that the price increases are paying for the redevelopment. My understanding is that ground and infrastructure improvements are not part of the FFP calculation, whereas gate receipts and merchandise are. As FFP is a big limiting factor on improving the playing squad, we'd be stupid to use it building a new stand. I'd be surprised if it isn't funded by the owners as it is a capital investment that directly increases the value of the club and their shares in it.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 29, 2022, 01:28:29 PM
https://www.theavfcfaithful.co.uk/post/paying-the-price-for-success?s=08The average season ticket at Villa Park has seen an increase of about 44% - well surely that's wrong? With most going up 10% surely the average must be less than 20%?
An excellent summary and analysis of where we stand in terms of growing our income and how it might affect fans - current and future, positively and negatively.
And we're hardly charging 'elite club' prices with our cheapest ST price being smack in the middle and below Wolves, Brighton and Bournemouth.
But yeah, our training gear is expensive so Villa clearly don't give a fuck about 'legacy fans'
Post by: London Villan on June 29, 2022, 01:31:44 PM
Couple of musings about Villa Live...
Will it be a big enough attraction to drag people to what is a scruffy/unloved part of Birmingham?
With football rivalries being what they are, will it exclude a big proportion of the population who wouldn't want to visit the home of another club on a non-matchday.
It's low down the list of priorities but I can't see many people not wanting to see a band because of where the gig is.
Maybe not bands - but beers/food etc. Not saying it can't be done, but you need a compelling offer to get customers to go a long way off the beaten track. It didn't work with the Holte, but the scale of what is proposed here is much bigger. Star City would be a similar example - operates at nowhere near the capacity it was built for, another would be Broadway Plaza.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 29, 2022, 01:35:23 PM
I was interested to read that Aston station is utilised more than Witton station on match days:I've little doubt about that in my mind. Witton out of town heads Black Country way, whereas Aston serves what one might consider the North Birmingham Villa Corridor.
"More fans currently use Aston Station (65%) compared to Witton Station (35%), so we will be looking at how to better manage usage, queuing, and access to train services"
Can anyone local shed any light on why this might be the case? Is it just access to the Cross City Line?
Post by: GordonCowansisthegreatest on June 29, 2022, 01:56:28 PM
1874 ........
and can we have a micro brewery please :)
Post by: Drummond on June 29, 2022, 02:07:45 PM
I've no problem with the name Villa Live tbh. It's not a massive own goal at all, who gives a fuck what Blues fans may call it?
yep I am pretty sure they have fires to put out back home
Ah, they're improving the Sty then?
Post by: The Edge on June 29, 2022, 02:40:18 PM
I've no problem with the name Villa Live tbh. It's not a massive own goal at all, who gives a fuck what Blues fans may call it?The fact that Live would be changed into vile by them is just an aside really. My original point was that I just don't like the moniker Villa Live because I think it's just a really naff name for a venue. However I have re-read Purslows statement and he actually says that Villa Live is a codename for the project so it may not end up being called that name after all! As someone pointed out earlier they will probably be looking for a sponsor anyway so it could end up being called something like The Adidas Arena. Now that would float my boat.
Post by: The Edge on June 29, 2022, 02:41:37 PM
Venue 1874Now your talking brother
1874 ........
and can we have a micro brewery please :)
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 29, 2022, 02:50:26 PM
Venue 1874Now your talking brother
1874 ........
and can we have a micro brewery please :)
Gets a thumbs-up from me as would the names 'Lions' Den' or 'Witton End".
Post by: algy on June 29, 2022, 03:00:06 PM
I was interested to read that Aston station is utilised more than Witton station on match days:I'd guess there's a couple of reasons.
"More fans currently use Aston Station (65%) compared to Witton Station (35%), so we will be looking at how to better manage usage, queuing, and access to train services"
Can anyone local shed any light on why this might be the case? Is it just access to the Cross City Line?
First, you have the cross city trains towards Lichfield & Redditch going from there. As a byproduct of that, it'll also have a more frequent service than Witton.
Post by: The Man With A Stick on June 29, 2022, 04:51:35 PM
Couple of musings about Villa Live...
Will it be a big enough attraction to drag people to what is a scruffy/unloved part of Birmingham?
With football rivalries being what they are, will it exclude a big proportion of the population who wouldn't want to visit the home of another club on a non-matchday.
It's low down the list of priorities but I can't see many people not wanting to see a band because of where the gig is.
Yeah, plenty of bands used to play at the Villa Leisure Centre until 20-odd years ago and I'd expect this to be around the same size so I doubt it would be an issue. Probably more similar sized venues providing competition in town now though.
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 29, 2022, 04:51:51 PM
Post by: amfy on June 29, 2022, 06:04:23 PM
So it’s a mathmatical certainly.
That & the cross city line 5th ing
Post by: paul_e on June 29, 2022, 06:26:37 PM
I was interested to read that Aston station is utilised more than Witton station on match days:I'd guess there's a couple of reasons.
"More fans currently use Aston Station (65%) compared to Witton Station (35%), so we will be looking at how to better manage usage, queuing, and access to train services"
Can anyone local shed any light on why this might be the case? Is it just access to the Cross City Line?
First, you have the cross city trains towards Lichfield & Redditch going from there. As a byproduct of that, it'll also have a more frequent service than Witton.
Yep, currently 4 6 carriage trains an hour on the cross city line, compared to 2 on the walsall line and I think they're only 3 carriages.
Post by: Chris Harte on June 29, 2022, 07:08:11 PM
I'm also wondering what the future will be for the Holte Hotel with all this going on. It'll be a bit out on it own with all these redevelopments. Maybe it could be repurposed as a hotel.
And on the anagram theme, I just noticed that Holte is an anagram of hotel.
Post by: eamonn on June 29, 2022, 07:11:41 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 29, 2022, 07:12:44 PM
Nothing more than that. There's no need to invest too much in what the buildings will look like, what the cladding will be, how the public spaces will look.
These drawings are not supposed to show that - they're basically hypothetical "this is more or less what we want to do".
I'd say the only bit which is certain is the 'Villa Live' title, all the rest - in what they have released to us, that is, it doesn't mean they don't have more detailed projections, i am sure they do - is just highly indicative.
There's no point having any reaction over details at this point.
Post by: Chris Smith on June 29, 2022, 07:14:14 PM
Like others, I can't help thinking the Villa Live building looks too small.
I'm also wondering what the future will be for the Holte Hotel with all this going on. It'll be a bit out on it own with all these redevelopments. Maybe it could be repurposed as a hotel.
And on the anagram theme, I just noticed that Holte is an anagram of hotel.
I can’t see it will change much, that and the Holte Suite will still be needed at that end of the ground, this new facility won’t everyone in.
Post by: Chris Harte on June 29, 2022, 07:20:26 PM
Only now? Come on Chris, aren't you a Wordle guru like the rest of them?Lol, no. I've got better things to do with my time.
Post by: Chris Harte on June 29, 2022, 07:22:07 PM
I can’t see it will change much, that and the Holte Suite will still be needed at that end of the ground, this new facility won’t everyone in.Yeah, I hope so. Of course, Holte Suite is used for business conferences and other events during the week
Post by: Des Little on June 29, 2022, 08:24:27 PM
Post by: Chris Smith on June 29, 2022, 08:59:01 PM
Let’s hope they crack the staffing/serving issues whilst they’re at it...
Hopefully if it becomes a venue for more than just match days they might be able to employ their own people rather than rely on agency staff.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 29, 2022, 09:39:54 PM
Let’s hope they crack the staffing/serving issues whilst they’re at it...
I put this in my survey comments. You shouldn’t have to miss the end of the first half or the start of the second to buy a pie.
Faster service, shorter queues, less missed action, more sales.
Post by: nigel on June 29, 2022, 09:50:32 PM
On that theme, maybe the Lion's Den?
Very Millwall
Post by: Toronto Villa on June 29, 2022, 10:45:23 PM
Not sure if this has been posted?
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Been there. It’s fantastic. The idea for ours will have American/Wes sports influence. The intent will be very much to make this a venue to be used all the time.
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2022, 10:54:43 PM
Yes, you’re probably right.On that theme, maybe the Lion's Den?
Very Millwall
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 30, 2022, 06:30:54 AM
Post by: sid1964 on June 30, 2022, 07:12:48 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 30, 2022, 07:18:39 AM
Did we not have an entertainment venue not far from Villa Park in the 80s / 90s - I am sure that I saw Hooty and the Blowfish at that venue.
And Kula Shaker ;D
Post by: Chris Harte on June 30, 2022, 09:32:23 AM
Not sure if this has been posted?Just for an idea of scale, I've had a look on Google Earth. While it is showing as an undeveloped building site on GE at the moment, the plot is approx. 110m x 90m. That's potentially alot of building.
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 30, 2022, 09:46:12 AM
Did we not have an entertainment venue not far from Villa Park in the 80s / 90s - I am sure that I saw Hooty and the Blowfish at that venue.
My sympathies!
As for having an entertainment venue, why don't they sort out the erntertainment on the pitch first? >:(
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 30, 2022, 09:48:30 AM
Pride Zone.
Seems like LeeB was on the money with his earlier suggestion.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 30, 2022, 10:09:32 AM
It's a grand idea. The cynic in me thinks they'll really struggle to make it work in this location outside of big event days. There's just not enough complimentary venues / uses in the vicinity and dragging people out of the City Centre will be a major challenge. Star City (although a different concept) feels like a big flop and that has better access and parking.Not sure if this has been posted?
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Been there. It’s fantastic. The idea for ours will have American/Wes sports influence. The intent will be very much to make this a venue to be used all the time.
Box Park at Croydon and Shoreditch are both centrally located to the local centres, with loads of other shops and leisure venues right next to them.
But hopefully it will take enough on match days and other event days to make it worthwhile.
Post by: LeeB on June 30, 2022, 11:06:51 AM
It's a grand idea. The cynic in me thinks they'll really struggle to make it work in this location outside of big event days. There's just not enough complimentary venues / uses in the vicinity and dragging people out of the City Centre will be a major challenge. Star City (although a different concept) feels like a big flop and that has better access and parking.Not sure if this has been posted?
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Been there. It’s fantastic. The idea for ours will have American/Wes sports influence. The intent will be very much to make this a venue to be used all the time.
Box Park at Croydon and Shoreditch are both centrally located to the local centres, with loads of other shops and leisure venues right next to them.
But hopefully it will take enough on match days and other event days to make it worthwhile.
Just a thought regarding an out-of-the-city venue, going in and out of Birmingham is becoming an inreasingly costly pain in the arse. I actually think there is a market for venues just outside that mean you don't have to pay a fortune to park/ incur clean zone charges.
20 years ago I wouldn't have believed you if you'd told me the Pershore Rd in Stirchley, where I used to go and get computers mended for cheap and that was about it, would be a thriving hub of craft bear and a good night out, I'd have laughed at you but here we are.
Post by: Martyn Smith on July 01, 2022, 10:39:38 PM
Isn't Witton primarily used by away fans. I walk that way to the car and there are alwaysa lotos them queueing
Yes because most of them come in via New Street and so it is logical to get the train to Witton from there.
However, the majority of home fans who travel by train do so from Lichfield and Sutton Coldfield, and whilst Aston is on that line, Witton is not. You could of course change at Aston for Witton but it's not worth the bollox; easier to just walk from Aston stn to VP
Post by: KevinGage on July 02, 2022, 12:38:21 AM
It's a grand idea. The cynic in me thinks they'll really struggle to make it work in this location outside of big event days. There's just not enough complimentary venues / uses in the vicinity and dragging people out of the City Centre will be a major challenge. Star City (although a different concept) feels like a big flop and that has better access and parking.Not sure if this has been posted?
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Been there. It’s fantastic. The idea for ours will have American/Wes sports influence. The intent will be very much to make this a venue to be used all the time.
Box Park at Croydon and Shoreditch are both centrally located to the local centres, with loads of other shops and leisure venues right next to them.
Maybe our owners are not looking at the here and now and how popular Aston, Witton etc are for a drink and a night out. If they wanted a sure thing, they could have purchased a London club at a vastly inflated fee and tried to make a dent in the oversaturated hospitality market there.
Speculators usually punt on the next big thing.
One of the better nights I had watching the Villa was at the Box Park at Elephant & Castle at the start of the 2018/19 for Hull away. Young trendy types (and us wankers) gladly paying inflated prices for food and craft beers on a Monday night. In an area with a checkered reputation to say the least.
London is a totally different market to Brum, granted. But remote working, improved rail links to the Smoke (HS2 or no) and other factors will make the region a much more attractive option by the 30s. A venue such as this for live gigs, pre/post match entertainment and other events in the second city could work. And would have a broader appeal than just Villa fans.
Brummie pessimism is great, wouldn't change it for the world. But NSWE probably already know all about the potential pitfalls. They've weighed it up and still think it's worth a lash.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 02, 2022, 01:29:05 AM
It's a grand idea. The cynic in me thinks they'll really struggle to make it work in this location outside of big event days. There's just not enough complimentary venues / uses in the vicinity and dragging people out of the City Centre will be a major challenge. Star City (although a different concept) feels like a big flop and that has better access and parking.Not sure if this has been posted?
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Been there. It’s fantastic. The idea for ours will have American/Wes sports influence. The intent will be very much to make this a venue to be used all the time.
Box Park at Croydon and Shoreditch are both centrally located to the local centres, with loads of other shops and leisure venues right next to them.
Maybe our owners are not looking at the here and now and how popular Aston, Witton etc are for a drink and a night out. If they wanted a sure thing, they could have purchased a London club at a vastly inflated fee and tried to make a dent in the oversaturated hospitality market there.
Speculators usually punt on the next big thing.
One of the better nights I had watching the Villa was at the Box Park at Elephant & Castle at the start of the 2018/19 for Hull away. Young trendy types (and us wankers) gladly paying inflated prices for food and craft beers on a Monday night. In an area with a checkered reputation to say the least.
London is a totally different market to Brum, granted. But remote working, improved rail links to the Smoke (HS2 or no) and other factors will make the region a much more attractive option by the 30s. A venue such as this for live gigs, pre/post match entertainment and other events in the second city could work. And would have a broader appeal than just Villa fans.
Brummie pessimism is great, wouldn't change it for the world. But NSWE probably already know all about the potential pitfalls. They've weighed it up and still think it's worth a lash.
That’s the spirit. There are still venues round there that are just about viable based on 20 match days and minimal trade the rest of the year. With improved transport, the option of a hotel stay, an increase in both capacity and the number of match days, plus events at the box park, year-round footfall and therefore viability, should increase and improve quite a bit. There!’s a stately home that’s a community museum, a beautiful church, there used to be a transport museum (but I don’t know what that building is used for now). There is the Holte Suite that puts on conferences and boxing, there will soon be a Premier League football academy. I’m just randomly listing assets now but they’re all capable of attracting some visitors.
Someone posted that Star City is a failure but we drive past quite often when going back and forth visiting family in Handsworth and Handsworth Wood and the car park is often rammed, even on weekday evenings. And Power League always looks busy quite late at night. So it is possible to get people over there. The Witton Arms was always busy when gigs were on at the leisure centre, it was the only time I used to drink in there.
Also, I’ve got a feeling that Villa games will be quite touristy in the near future if we keep recruiting the way we have been recently. It would be great if the Rat Pan, Aston Tavern and Aston Hotel could be brought back and made a success of.
Post by: ChicagoLion on July 02, 2022, 06:19:21 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 02, 2022, 06:51:40 AM
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2022/07/02/villa-park-expansion-plan-to-see-30m-train-station-redevelopment/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2022/07/02/villa-park-expansion-plan-to-see-30m-train-station-redevelopment/)
Post by: Drummond on July 02, 2022, 07:01:12 AM
Post by: algy on July 02, 2022, 08:16:14 AM
Yeah, I agree.It's a grand idea. The cynic in me thinks they'll really struggle to make it work in this location outside of big event days. There's just not enough complimentary venues / uses in the vicinity and dragging people out of the City Centre will be a major challenge. Star City (although a different concept) feels like a big flop and that has better access and parking.Not sure if this has been posted?
https://www.gensler.com/projects/milwaukee-bucks-entertainment-district
That looks alright to me!
Been there. It’s fantastic. The idea for ours will have American/Wes sports influence. The intent will be very much to make this a venue to be used all the time.
Box Park at Croydon and Shoreditch are both centrally located to the local centres, with loads of other shops and leisure venues right next to them.
Maybe our owners are not looking at the here and now and how popular Aston, Witton etc are for a drink and a night out. If they wanted a sure thing, they could have purchased a London club at a vastly inflated fee and tried to make a dent in the oversaturated hospitality market there.
Speculators usually punt on the next big thing.
One of the better nights I had watching the Villa was at the Box Park at Elephant & Castle at the start of the 2018/19 for Hull away. Young trendy types (and us wankers) gladly paying inflated prices for food and craft beers on a Monday night. In an area with a checkered reputation to say the least.
London is a totally different market to Brum, granted. But remote working, improved rail links to the Smoke (HS2 or no) and other factors will make the region a much more attractive option by the 30s. A venue such as this for live gigs, pre/post match entertainment and other events in the second city could work. And would have a broader appeal than just Villa fans.
Brummie pessimism is great, wouldn't change it for the world. But NSWE probably already know all about the potential pitfalls. They've weighed it up and still think it's worth a lash.
If the plan is to make Villa Park an attractive place to visit 365 days a year, which I'd assume is a big part of it, then they're going to need food & drink options already in place - and the options around Villa Park aren't that great at the moment.
I'd imagine you'd start with the easy wins. Obvious one to me is screen Villa away games where possible. Shove on a Q&A type thing with a former player afterwards, offer some decent entertainments beforehand (museum, kids activities, ..) and job's a good 'un. You add in £5 or whatever entry, plus food & drink takings, ... just seems a really simple, obvious move. Do the same for England games (maybe Scotland/Wales/Ireland/..) and you're looking at getting once or twice a week usage out of it from August through to the end of June/start of July.
Not going to rock any boats, but increase the number of events on top of those at Villa Park & you'd be looking at a decent revenue stream coming in.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on July 02, 2022, 12:15:50 PM
Witton Station to be rebuilt apparently, as part of a £30m improvement plan.Excellent.Witton is the key imo.
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2022/07/02/villa-park-expansion-plan-to-see-30m-train-station-redevelopment/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2022/07/02/villa-park-expansion-plan-to-see-30m-train-station-redevelopment/)
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 02, 2022, 01:13:38 PM
Witton Station to be rebuilt apparently, as part of a £30m improvement plan.
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2022/07/02/villa-park-expansion-plan-to-see-30m-train-station-redevelopment/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2022/07/02/villa-park-expansion-plan-to-see-30m-train-station-redevelopment/)
Good stuff, a big part of what the WMCA is supposed to be all about, unlocking investment by improving infrastructure.
Post by: langleylions on July 02, 2022, 02:47:00 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on July 02, 2022, 02:56:36 PM
Post by: LeeB on July 02, 2022, 02:59:00 PM
Witton Station is closer to the ground, you couldn't feasibly have a walkway from Aston Station to Villa Park. Aston Station is more used by Villa fans but only because Witton trains are less frequent. If you could leave the ground and be on a train from Witton to town within a few minutes it would be a massive reduction on the strain for Aston Station, too. Hopefully Witton gets renamed Villa Park Station.
If we stumping up for the rebuild it's the least they can do.
Post by: cdbearsfan on July 02, 2022, 03:03:49 PM
Still, it isn't my money. Give us a monorail to town and pay to bring King Kong back to the Bull Ring while you're at it, please. And put the dinosaur that roars when you press a button back in the museum.
Post by: AV82EC on July 02, 2022, 03:05:34 PM
why is nothing being said about aston station wich surely is more in need to get people back to new street & town
Because Aston station is upon an embankment I’d imagine it will be very difficult to develop the station in any meaningful way.
Post by: langleylions on July 02, 2022, 03:49:51 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on July 02, 2022, 03:52:35 PM
Post by: langleylions on July 02, 2022, 03:53:35 PM
Post by: algy on July 02, 2022, 04:43:12 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on July 02, 2022, 04:46:43 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 02, 2022, 04:55:45 PM
Hopefully Witton gets renamed Villa Park Station.
I wouldn't mind it being called 'Holte End' station either, has a nice traditional Quatermass type ring to it. 8)
Post by: Dave P on July 02, 2022, 05:52:14 PM
Hopefully Witton gets renamed Villa Park Station.
I wouldn't mind it being called 'Holte End' station either, has a nice traditional Quatermass type ring to it. 8)
Hopefully New Street gets renamed as Villa Station to really boil piss.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 02, 2022, 05:59:18 PM
Post by: Nev on July 02, 2022, 06:11:59 PM
I can't fathom out why this cannot or will not work at the Villa. It also happens for the big meetings at Cheltenham Races.
The demand is there, the infrastructure is there as witnessed today, there's money to be made so why is it not in place. I know there has to be a will on both parts but there is between WCCC and NE so why not for us?
Post by: paul_e on July 02, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
i never said you could have a walkway to aston did i ? , my point being aston is just as much a nightmare after the game as witton if not more with some ques stretching half a mile down lichfield rd ,, dont necessarily mean building a new station just putting on more trains and bigger ones for end of match
I foy u look at the satellite view of aston compared to witton it's pretty easy to spot why witton is easier and cheaper to make improvements to and it also drags people away from Aston anyway. Aston does need some work, and I suspect it will happen, but Witton first and in time for the new North stand makes sense.
Post by: London Villan on July 02, 2022, 07:29:51 PM
Post by: saunders_heroes on July 02, 2022, 08:28:52 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 02, 2022, 08:37:45 PM
https://twitter.com/B6Nigel/status/1543168289697894402
No wonder we've got a big away following. I'm not angry just a bit disappointed (I can't get a ticket).
Post by: PeterWithe on July 03, 2022, 09:26:55 AM
Post by: eamonn on July 03, 2022, 09:34:13 AM
Post by: algy on July 03, 2022, 09:45:02 AM
On the basis that its nearly always cheaper to demolish and start again than make major alterations, I wonder if any thought has been given to moving Aston Station to the other side of Lichfield Rd. As a caveat I have pretty much zero construction knowledge or experience.I know very little about this sort of thing, but the rail junction the other side of the canal might cause problems - plus you'd have to build over the road *and* the cut to get enough space for the platforms.
Strikes me though that if there was capacity for extra services, sending a small number of trains the other way over that junction, towards Stechford & Birmingham International might be worth looking at. Think the other HS2 site will be round there, so potentially for away fans & those going north/south it might be more convenient ... plus there'd be a percentage of Villa fans who'd no doubt be able to make use of the direct services to SE Brum.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 03, 2022, 09:52:14 AM
Well then, don't say anything at all ;)
It would be a quiet forum if we all restricted our comments to things we had any real insight into.
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on July 03, 2022, 10:01:25 AM
Post by: john e on July 03, 2022, 10:54:24 AM
Well then, don't say anything at all ;)
It would be a quiet forum if we all restricted our comments to things we had any real insight into.
There’d only be me on here 😀
Post by: Des Little on July 03, 2022, 11:28:01 AM
The aerial view of Edgbaston shows a line of buses ready to take everyone back into Town, I used this service during the last Ashes test there.
I can't fathom out why this cannot or will not work at the Villa. It also happens for the big meetings at Cheltenham Races.
The demand is there, the infrastructure is there as witnessed today, there's money to be made so why is it not in place. I know there has to be a will on both parts but there is between WCCC and NE so why not for us?
Absolutely this. I’d love to hear a rational explanation why this can’t be put in place this season.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 03, 2022, 11:33:18 AM
The aerial view of Edgbaston shows a line of buses ready to take everyone back into Town, I used this service during the last Ashes test there.
I can't fathom out why this cannot or will not work at the Villa. It also happens for the big meetings at Cheltenham Races.
The demand is there, the infrastructure is there as witnessed today, there's money to be made so why is it not in place. I know there has to be a will on both parts but there is between WCCC and NE so why not for us?
Absolutely this. I’d love to hear a rational explanation why this can’t be put in place this season.
Surely someone has suggested this ?
Post by: Risso on July 03, 2022, 11:37:40 AM
Post by: GordonCowansisthegreatest on July 03, 2022, 11:44:21 AM
Post by: Chris Smith on July 03, 2022, 11:50:39 AM
I guess it's much easier to get away from Edgbaston though. You've got the Bristol and Pershore Roads right next to the ground, and far less in the way of old, narrow terraced streets hemming everything in. The problem with having a load of coaches at Villa Park is first of all where would they wait, and secondly they're just going to sit in all of the traffic like everybody else. Edgbaston only holds 20 odd thousand as well.
There used to be a shuttle service of double deckers back in the 80s between Priory Queensway and Sycamore Road which was always busy before and after the game. Not sure when it stopped running but suspect the Cross City trains took up a lot of that custom. With the size crowds now and in the future there is probably an argument for having both.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 03, 2022, 11:53:39 AM
Post by: Nev on July 03, 2022, 12:04:59 PM
Post by: Des Little on July 03, 2022, 12:09:44 PM
Post by: AV82EC on July 03, 2022, 12:10:59 PM
Post by: Nev on July 03, 2022, 12:16:26 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on July 03, 2022, 12:20:39 PM
I’d have thought most people could walk up to the Lichfield Road, then it’s a straight road into town?
And or, Birchfield Rd
I must say I’ve always wondered exactly how big these ‘unique transport challenges’ actually are for anyone with a bit of ‘can do’ spirit.
Post by: Mister E on July 03, 2022, 12:31:31 PM
Leeds run buses to Elland Road from the City centre on match days. Their road system is pretty ugly on match days but the bus service certainly takes up some of the slack.I’d have thought most people could walk up to the Lichfield Road, then it’s a straight road into town?And or, Birchfield Rd
I must say I’ve always wondered exactly how big these ‘unique transport challenges’ actually are for anyone with a bit of ‘can do’ spirit.
For some reason BCC (or some other authority) seems remarkably dense on the matter, viewed from afar.
Post by: exigo on July 03, 2022, 01:01:09 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on July 03, 2022, 01:04:47 PM
Post by: Risso on July 03, 2022, 01:10:50 PM
Police could assist by preventing car traffic entering the island for a couple of minutes while all the buses and coaches get out.
The last point is a good one. Any solution needs to involve traffic planning and control from the police. They could temporarily shut some of the side roads and make sure that for say twenty minutes, everything is going in the two main directions that cars take to get away from the ground.
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 03, 2022, 01:18:38 PM
BCC would prefer you to use the cycle lanesLeeds run buses to Elland Road from the City centre on match days. Their road system is pretty ugly on match days but the bus service certainly takes up some of the slack.I’d have thought most people could walk up to the Lichfield Road, then it’s a straight road into town?And or, Birchfield Rd
I must say I’ve always wondered exactly how big these ‘unique transport challenges’ actually are for anyone with a bit of ‘can do’ spirit.
For some reason BCC (or some other authority) seems remarkably dense on the matter, viewed from afar.
Post by: Villan For Life on July 03, 2022, 02:40:26 PM
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on July 03, 2022, 04:52:19 PM
Witton Road needs to be car free before and after the match to allow for shuttle buses.
Post by: Risso on July 03, 2022, 04:56:00 PM
(*Obviously it's Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, the Shires and by chauffeur-driven Bentley)
Post by: paul_e on July 03, 2022, 07:49:33 PM
Post by: martyn ellis on July 03, 2022, 09:25:08 PM
At a guess I'd think buses to moor st and six ways would be the 2 key services, both then have decent links to go on from there.I know by sight a few (and some to chat to) Season ticket holders who come up on the train from Euston Station. I used to drive up for years until I moved more centrally (London) which added 45 minutes to my trip and also because of the parking once they developed the site that now houses office space near the ground. It would be interesting to see how many come up from London (and environs and end up in New Street for a train to Witton or Aston.
Post by: Clive W on July 03, 2022, 10:02:45 PM
At a guess I'd think buses to moor st and six ways would be the 2 key services, both then have decent links to go on from there.I know by sight a few (and some to chat to) Season ticket holders who come up on the train from Euston Station. I used to drive up for years until I moved more centrally (London) which added 45 minutes to my trip and also because of the parking once they developed the site that now houses office space near the ground. It would be interesting to see how many come up from London (and environs and end up in New Street for a train to Witton or Aston.
Completely irrelevant I know but back in the day, late 60’s early 70’s, I lived in Tunbridge Wells and then went to college in London. I used to catch the train to New Street and can remember walking up Corporation Street and I can visualise a big roundabout and the VP special buses went from the right hand side of the roundabout
As I said…totally irrelevant but brought back some happy memories
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 04, 2022, 12:41:12 AM
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of where people in an average 40K attendance come from and how they travel.*Bentley, good God, poor man's car, has too be the Rolls Royce old chap
(*Obviously it's Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, the Shires and by chauffeur-driven Bentley)
Post by: john e on July 04, 2022, 08:46:51 AM
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of where people in an average 40K attendance come from and how they travel.*Bentley, good God, poor man's car, has too be the Rolls Royce old chap
(*Obviously it's Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, the Shires and by chauffeur-driven Bentley)
remember when David Gold turned up at Villa Park in his Roller
Post by: Risso on July 04, 2022, 09:26:41 AM
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of where people in an average 40K attendance come from and how they travel.*Bentley, good God, poor man's car, has too be the Rolls Royce old chap
(*Obviously it's Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, the Shires and by chauffeur-driven Bentley)
remember when David Gold turned up at Villa Park in his Roller
I passed him and Gold on the motorway once, sets of friendly Vs were exchanged, and then I sped off.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 04, 2022, 09:48:44 AM
It'd be interesting to see a breakdown of where people in an average 40K attendance come from and how they travel.*Bentley, good God, poor man's car, has too be the Rolls Royce old chap
(*Obviously it's Lichfield, Sutton Coldfield, the Shires and by chauffeur-driven Bentley)
remember when David Gold turned up at Villa Park in his Roller
I passed him and Gold on the motorway once, sets of friendly Vs were exchanged, and then I sped off.
I was in Pat McMahon’s car, being driven up from London for the 5-1 Blues game when Gold sped past us on the motorway in his Bentley. I tried but was too slow to wind the window down and chuck my tin of Stella at him.
Post by: Sdwbvf on July 04, 2022, 10:55:34 PM
At a guess I'd think buses to moor st and six ways would be the 2 key services, both then have decent links to go on from there.I know by sight a few (and some to chat to) Season ticket holders who come up on the train from Euston Station. I used to drive up for years until I moved more centrally (London) which added 45 minutes to my trip and also because of the parking once they developed the site that now houses office space near the ground. It would be interesting to see how many come up from London (and environs and end up in New Street for a train to Witton or Aston.
I do. When I have time to go. Used to do Marylebone to Moor Street then up to Witton. Most recently have done Euston since they destroyed the Marylebone service. Witton after the game was not bad for Watford. But then everyone had left early! Train back to London full of away fans can be a bugger. Had West Ham, Brighton, Villa and Wolves after the Brighton game. One walker at Euston had a go on the platform at me and my 9 year old. Haven't seen so many police at one station for years.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 04, 2022, 11:24:44 PM
At a guess I'd think buses to moor st and six ways would be the 2 key services, both then have decent links to go on from there.I know by sight a few (and some to chat to) Season ticket holders who come up on the train from Euston Station. I used to drive up for years until I moved more centrally (London) which added 45 minutes to my trip and also because of the parking once they developed the site that now houses office space near the ground. It would be interesting to see how many come up from London (and environs and end up in New Street for a train to Witton or Aston.
I do. When I have time to go. Used to do Marylebone to Moor Street then up to Witton. Most recently have done Euston since they destroyed the Marylebone service. Witton after the game was not bad for Watford. But then everyone had left early! Train back to London full of away fans can be a bugger. Had West Ham, Brighton, Villa and Wolves after the Brighton game. One walker at Euston had a go on the platform at me and my 9 year old.
Fair play to him though, he got there quick.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 05, 2022, 09:40:48 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 05, 2022, 09:49:11 AM
An email from the Supporters Trust this morning specifically mentions there being a music venue incorporated in the plans whereas Purslow or the stuff published so far doesn't seem to give that impression.
If you look at the overhead drawings which include Aston Hall, the Villa Live / Villa Way area has the building but also a cut-out square area with nothing in it. I thought this might be because more was going there and the building would be the shops and bars and restaurants.
It's the first drawing on the left here https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/ (https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/).
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2022, 09:17:51 AM
Would people be happy if the club sold a sponsor naming rights for the new stand or part of the Villa Live area? If the money was to go to improving the playing squad and FFP rather than to offset build costs.
I hate the very idea, but at the same time I can see how hard it is to compete on FFP without extra revenue. I think the Villa Live area might be better than the stand, especially if there's a music venue as that's quite normal to have a sponsor.
I'm glad I don't have to decide if I'm honest!
Post by: algy on July 06, 2022, 09:24:24 AM
Much stronger feels about the ground, though. I could cope with an FA Cup style 'North Stand sponsored by XYZ', but that's about the limit. Definitely not the ground, and the stands should keep close to their original names.
Post by: paul_e on July 06, 2022, 09:29:32 AM
I saw something the other day, I think it was on Football Insider so it's all rubbish, but it made me wonder what the reaction would be.
Would people be happy if the club sold a sponsor naming rights for the new stand or part of the Villa Live area? If the money was to go to improving the playing squad and FFP rather than to offset build costs.
I hate the very idea, but at the same time I can see how hard it is to compete on FFP without extra revenue. I think the Villa Live area might be better than the stand, especially if there's a music venue as that's quite normal to have a sponsor.
I'm glad I don't have to decide if I'm honest!
We've got the name of Doug fucking Ellis on one of our stands, there are very few sponsors we could find that would be as shit as that.
As far as I'm concerned we can have everything about the club sponsored except for the holte end and probably the ground. If selling sponsorship for everything adds a chunk to our income that closes the gap on the top 6, even slightly, then we need to do it.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2022, 09:30:46 AM
I'd personally draw the line at the Vila Park name though, but could possibly live with it being pre-fixed if the money was significant.
Whilst we're all precious about our history, and rightly so, if we want to compete at the very top I guess there will have to be compromises. As long as these are done in a reasonable way, then personally I would be ok living with that. It's time for us to make some more history and that is my priority.
Post by: Des Little on July 06, 2022, 09:31:51 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2022, 09:33:20 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 06, 2022, 09:35:07 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2022, 09:36:48 AM
As for Villa Live, I can't see any benefit for a sponsor in naming a very modestly sized drinking venue. If we can get a few quid fine, but I don't see it myself.
I think it's more if they have live music again really.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
We've got the name of Doug fucking Ellis on one of our stands, there are very few sponsors we could find that would be as shit as that.
Absolutely. 'The Scholl fungal nail cream stand' would be better than that.
Post by: London Villan on July 06, 2022, 09:40:02 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2022, 09:42:59 AM
Even so, who sponsors small music venues? If you're thinking o2, their sponsorship is with the Academy group, not individual small venues. I can't think of any other similar venues that are sponsored. We could potenially do a deal with the Academy Group or Box Park for them to run the venue for us, but I think that's doubtful.As for Villa Live, I can't see any benefit for a sponsor in naming a very modestly sized drinking venue. If we can get a few quid fine, but I don't see it myself.
I think it's more if they have live music again really.
Post by: LeeB on July 06, 2022, 09:47:10 AM
We've got the name of Doug fucking Ellis on one of our stands, there are very few sponsors we could find that would be as shit as that.
Absolutely. 'The Scholl fungal nail cream stand' would be better than that.
Maybe we could combine sponsor and illustrious player from the past?
The Dwight Yorkie Stand
The Juan Pablo Angel Delight Stand
The Dion Visit Dublin Stand
The Garry Parker Knoll Stand etc.
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2022, 09:54:27 AM
Even so, who sponsors small music venues? If you're thinking o2, their sponsorship is with the Academy group, not individual small venues. I can't think of any other similar venues that are sponsored. We could potenially do a deal with the Academy Group or Box Park for them to run the venue for us, but I think that's doubtful.As for Villa Live, I can't see any benefit for a sponsor in naming a very modestly sized drinking venue. If we can get a few quid fine, but I don't see it myself.
I think it's more if they have live music again really.
So you don't think even our main shirt sponsors would pay more to increase their exposure to potential non-football audiences? If they build it and get the footfall, they will find a sponsor.
Remember, this isn't some tiny independent bar that puts on a few acts, this is a massive commercial organisation with a team dedicated to going out and finding sponsorship partners for a whole range of things at the club.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2022, 09:55:43 AM
Post by: Pat Mustard on July 06, 2022, 09:58:15 AM
Even so, who sponsors small music venues? If you're thinking o2, their sponsorship is with the Academy group, not individual small venues. I can't think of any other similar venues that are sponsored. We could potenially do a deal with the Academy Group or Box Park for them to run the venue for us, but I think that's doubtful.As for Villa Live, I can't see any benefit for a sponsor in naming a very modestly sized drinking venue. If we can get a few quid fine, but I don't see it myself.
I think it's more if they have live music again really.
So you don't think even our main shirt sponsors would pay more to increase their exposure to potential non-football audiences? If they build it and get the footfall, they will find a sponsor.
Remember, this isn't some tiny independent bar that puts on a few acts, this is a massive commercial organisation with a team dedicated to going out and finding sponsorship partners for a whole range of things at the club.
I suspect something like this will be the case - sponsorship of the Live venue will be tied into one of the partnership agreements we have to increase it's value. I'm not sure I'd want to go somewhere called Cazoo Live however.
Post by: eamonn on July 06, 2022, 09:59:17 AM
We've got the name of Doug fucking Ellis on one of our stands, there are very few sponsors we could find that would be as shit as that.
Absolutely. 'The Scholl fungal nail cream stand' would be better than that.
Maybe we could combine sponsor and illustrious player from the past?
The Dwight Yorkie Stand
The Juan Pablo Angel Delight Stand
The Dion Visit Dublin Stand
The Garry Parker Knoll Stand etc.
Gareth Barry's Tea
Allan Evans Cycles
Didn't Ian Taylor set-up his own budget-brand Beats By Dre-type headphones a few years back?
Post by: Dave P on July 06, 2022, 10:12:10 AM
Post by: Chris Smith on July 06, 2022, 10:21:27 AM
I've got no problem with Villa Live being sponsored. The Cadburys Arena. The Davenports Dome. The Brew XI Boxpark.
The Mr Egg Megadome.
Post by: LeeB on July 06, 2022, 10:23:49 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2022, 10:25:07 AM
I've got no problem with Villa Live being sponsored. The Cadburys Arena. The Davenports Dome. The Brew XI Boxpark.
The Mr Egg Megadome.
;D
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 06, 2022, 10:28:43 AM
I've got no problem with Villa Live being sponsored. The Cadburys Arena. The Davenports Dome. The Brew XI Boxpark.
The Mr Egg Megadome.
Eggadome, perhaps.
Post by: Villan For Life on July 06, 2022, 10:28:52 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2022, 10:37:24 AM
Surely as we all live in gated communities out in the shires then we should be including sponsors like Burberry, Hunters and JLR?
JLR would probably expect us to pay them and everything that went wrong would be our fault.
Post by: Villan82 on July 06, 2022, 10:41:25 AM
I've got no problem with Villa Live being sponsored. The Cadburys Arena. The Davenports Dome. The Brew XI Boxpark.
Have been seeing youtube ads recently by Cadbury's that promote the scab six by displaying their six logos prominently. Screw them.
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2022, 10:48:28 AM
I've got no problem with Villa Live being sponsored. The Cadburys Arena. The Davenports Dome. The Brew XI Boxpark.
Have been seeing youtube ads recently by Cadbury's that promote the scab six by displaying their six logos prominently. Screw them.
I've hated them since they removed the 's. Nothing sounds right anymore. How can you relax with 'Cadbury' caramel? Lunacy. I can't relax until I've said the S.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 06, 2022, 11:26:40 AM
Surely as we all live in gated communities out in the shires then we should be including sponsors like Burberry, Hunters and JLR?
The Caterham 7 FA Cups (Still) Stand.
Would appeal to our middle-aged (going through a mid-life crisis) fans.
Post by: Bad English on July 06, 2022, 12:20:18 PM
Post by: Towser on July 06, 2022, 12:23:53 PM
The Villa Werewolf Stand will do for me.Upper should be Tarzan Tier
Post by: cdbearsfan on July 06, 2022, 01:08:15 PM
I've got no problem with Villa Live being sponsored. The Cadburys Arena. The Davenports Dome. The Brew XI Boxpark.
The Mr Egg Megadome.
Eggadome, perhaps.
Egg-iogu-dome
Post by: Drummond on July 06, 2022, 03:48:37 PM
Post by: FatSam on July 07, 2022, 07:27:34 PM
Post by: Dave P on July 14, 2022, 09:23:13 AM
Post by: Nev on July 14, 2022, 09:30:02 AM
Just had an e-mail advertising Bruce Springsteen playing a gig at Villa Park in June 2023. If the stage is at the North Stand where it normally is, then I suppose construction work could go on behind it?
I've just managed to calm myself down after hearing that news. There were gigs at Anfield this summer while the Anfield Road end was being done.
Post by: algy on July 14, 2022, 11:13:47 AM
Is Bruce Springsteen some kind of football stand construction fetishist?Just had an e-mail advertising Bruce Springsteen playing a gig at Villa Park in June 2023. If the stage is at the North Stand where it normally is, then I suppose construction work could go on behind it?
I've just managed to calm myself down after hearing that news. There were gigs at Anfield this summer while the Anfield Road end was being done.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on July 14, 2022, 11:15:54 AM
Is Bruce Springsteen some kind of football stand construction fetishist?Just had an e-mail advertising Bruce Springsteen playing a gig at Villa Park in June 2023. If the stage is at the North Stand where it normally is, then I suppose construction work could go on behind it?
I've just managed to calm myself down after hearing that news. There were gigs at Anfield this summer while the Anfield Road end was being done.
Yes. You should've seen the stains after they demolished the Thunder Road stand at Buckie Thistle.
Post by: olaftab on July 14, 2022, 11:20:24 AM
Just had an e-mail advertising Bruce Springsteen playing a gig at Villa Park in June 2023. If the stage is at the North Stand where it normally is, then I suppose construction work could go on behind it?Wow...Cant believe we stood in the Holte End on 22 June 1988. Was that really 34 years ago?
Post by: Border villan on July 14, 2022, 11:25:33 AM
Just had an e-mail advertising Bruce Springsteen playing a gig at Villa Park in June 2023. If the stage is at the North Stand where it normally is, then I suppose construction work could go on behind it?
Hopefully while he is performing.
Post by: Hookeysmith on July 14, 2022, 12:42:58 PM
Just had an e-mail advertising Bruce Springsteen playing a gig at Villa Park in June 2023. If the stage is at the North Stand where it normally is, then I suppose construction work could go on behind it?
Hopefully while he is performing.
The sound of construction work would be better
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 14, 2022, 11:44:52 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 15, 2022, 09:50:26 AM
I’ve read far too much heresy regarding The Boss in various threads. I expect better from H&V and it needs to stop.Agreed. One of the greats.
Post by: Dogtanian on July 15, 2022, 10:00:35 AM
Post by: eamonn on July 15, 2022, 11:10:41 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 15, 2022, 11:49:43 AM
Not if it's a quality bum.
I was just about to post that I'd not heard it, but then thankfully realised you hadn't put 'album'. ;D
Post by: chrisw1 on July 15, 2022, 11:56:10 AM
You've not heard Born in the USA? Christ, you haven't lived!Not if it's a quality bum.
I was just about to post that I'd not heard it, but then thankfully realised you hadn't put 'album'. ;D
Post by: Dogtanian on July 15, 2022, 11:58:39 AM
(I did know he had an arse on his album cover though, so credit me with that!)
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 15, 2022, 12:00:00 PM
Post by: darren woolley on July 15, 2022, 12:07:56 PM
Post by: Nelly on July 15, 2022, 12:59:19 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 15, 2022, 01:41:17 PM
There's enough Springsteen elsewhere. Can we please stick to the script here?
Yes, Boss*
* see what I did there?
Post by: Drummond on July 15, 2022, 04:46:12 PM
You've not heard Born in the USA? Christ, you haven't lived!Not if it's a quality bum.
I was just about to post that I'd not heard it, but then thankfully realised you hadn't put 'album'. ;D
Buns in the USA
Post by: London Villan on August 07, 2022, 04:52:40 PM
Post by: Des Little on August 07, 2022, 08:46:24 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on August 08, 2022, 10:32:43 AM
With how slickly the shuttle buses have worked from Perry Barr, do we think we’ll have the same service now they have it working?They had hired buses in from all over to cater for 2 weeks of demand (eg I saw some from Cambridge park and ride). I guess in that context it made financial sense. It's probably much harder to make it stack up for 1 game every two weeks.
But I agree with the principal, until they can sort out the trains then fleets of buses would make most sense if they can find operators willing to do it.
Post by: cdbearsfan on August 08, 2022, 10:37:48 AM
Post by: LeeB on August 08, 2022, 10:42:05 AM
There used to always be a row of buzzes lined up between North Stand and Witton Station. As they weren't WM Travel they weren't obliged to stick to the official route so could avoid traffic. You were usually in town within twenty minutes or so. More like an hour if you get the WM ones.
There's enough operators in the second largest conurbation in the UK to make it happen, you would think. Is Den Caney still going? God, they were willing to drag 50 or so of us taking various substances to random places like Stafford and Coalville
for clubs in the 90's, they'd lap this up surely?
Post by: olaftab on August 08, 2022, 10:52:27 AM
Yes the shuttle service from AXS was superb but having a stadium in the middle of a park with lots of space to kettle and corral spectatores into queues where you kept walking till you were on a bus helped. That's not possible at Villa park but my mind harks back to when I was a school boy and loads of busses were bringing fans in from Dale End to Church road and then return. Why can't we have that back?With how slickly the shuttle buses have worked from Perry Barr, do we think we’ll have the same service now they have it working?They had hired buses in from all over to cater for 2 weeks of demand (eg I saw some from Cambridge park and ride). I guess in that context it made financial sense. It's probably much harder to make it stack up for 1 game every two weeks.
But I agree with the principal, until they can sort out the trains then fleets of buses would make most sense if they can find operators willing to do it.
Post by: London Villan on August 08, 2022, 10:53:54 AM
Post by: algy on August 08, 2022, 01:02:38 PM
I'd gone on a Stagecoach one that had the Kilmarnock to Ardrossen bus route marked out on the back.With how slickly the shuttle buses have worked from Perry Barr, do we think we’ll have the same service now they have it working?They had hired buses in from all over to cater for 2 weeks of demand (eg I saw some from Cambridge park and ride). I guess in that context it made financial sense. It's probably much harder to make it stack up for 1 game every two weeks.
But I agree with the principal, until they can sort out the trains then fleets of buses would make most sense if they can find operators willing to do it.
Post by: dorsetvillian on August 08, 2022, 01:36:13 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on August 08, 2022, 01:48:58 PM
Post by: Mister E on August 08, 2022, 01:51:02 PM
We need a speedy shuttle service from the Lichfield road area(plenty of space around ) that can use the bus lanes and carry people back to the city centre in 5 minutes ,a fair price would be £4 return.Four fucking quid???? - you serious??!!!
Post by: Pat Mustard on August 08, 2022, 01:51:31 PM
I think we are stuck with the current shitshow on transport until the North Stand is rebuilt, but after that point I think the CWG has shown how it has to be handled in future, which is stopping as many people as possible from driving to the ground.
Post by: Flin5tone on August 08, 2022, 02:14:29 PM
We need a speedy shuttle service from the Lichfield road area(plenty of space around ) that can use the bus lanes and carry people back to the city centre in 5 minutes ,a fair price would be £4 return.Four fucking quid???? - you serious??!!!
Yes? Around the price it would cost with TFWM service
Post by: chrisw1 on August 08, 2022, 02:15:13 PM
I still think it's a good idea, but I'm pretty sure the club would need to be involved as I can't really see it being a worthwhile commercial venture for coach companies.
Post by: Flin5tone on August 08, 2022, 02:22:47 PM
Post by: London Villan on August 08, 2022, 02:26:08 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 08, 2022, 02:28:17 PM
Post by: paul_e on August 08, 2022, 02:37:57 PM
I may be wrong but I would guess that a large proportion of the Games crowd are coming from and going back to one place, namely the city centre. You don't get that concentration at a match - the crowd spreads out all over the place.
true but if you can get shuttles to handle the 'clumps' of supporters going to the city centre, erdington, sutton, etc then you free up normal public transport to handle most of the rest, add park and ride facilities on top and it'd be pretty simple to spread out the congestion to a much broader area. All adds costs and need for staffing/organisation though so would need the club to heavily back that sort of scheme.
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 08, 2022, 02:41:05 PM
Post by: Nev on August 08, 2022, 02:42:18 PM
The return journey's start immediately after the final whistle and continue until there is no one left to pick up. How many vehicles this needs depends on demand but we have a fairly static attendance so you have a rough idea.
This wouldn't replace the trains or taxi's but give an alternative and take the pressure off the existing options somewhat. It's true, not everyone goes back into Town but I think enough people do to warrant at the very least, a trial run.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on August 08, 2022, 02:50:47 PM
The return journey's start immediately after the final whistle…..
Or maybe 10 minutes before the final whistle, to give us wankers a head start
Post by: Chris Smith on August 08, 2022, 02:52:26 PM
It wouldn't just be one journey each way, you have a number of vehicles doing the journey a number of times depending on demand, that's how it works at other large entertainment or sporting events. For it would start at a given time, perhaps 1pm from town with the last bus departing at 2.15/2.30.
The return journey's start immediately after the final whistle and continue until there is no one left to pick up. How many vehicles this needs depends on demand but we have a fairly static attendance so you have a rough idea.
This wouldn't replace the trains or taxi's but give an alternative and take the pressure off the existing options somewhat. It's true, not everyone goes back into Town but I think enough people do to warrant at the very least, a trial run.
It used to work exactly as you describe Nev, we used it for years.
Thinking back though this was before all day opening for pubs so that probably influenced our choice, little point hanging around in Aston for 45 minutes after the game when you couldn’t get a drink.
Post by: rjp on August 08, 2022, 03:00:06 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 08, 2022, 03:00:13 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 08, 2022, 03:09:06 PM
Are there enough spare buses these days to have them hanging around for a few hours on Saturday afternoon?
I read somewhere (actually, it might have been a previous page on this thread but I can't be arsed to look now I've stopped typing) that they had to bring in buses from all over the country to run these shuttles, so no, I suspect there wouldn't be.
Post by: Nev on August 08, 2022, 03:20:57 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 08, 2022, 03:45:11 PM
I'm only basing my thoughts on what happens elsewhere. At Cheltenham and here for the CG they use Stagecoach but at Edgbaston it's your common or garden WMPTE and it's that shuttle service that would be easiest to replicate if the service is viable at all.
Again, it might be timescales. For Villa Park virtually everyone is getting there over a period of two hours before and 30 minutes after. I would guess Edgbaston crowds are more spread out.
Post by: paul_e on August 08, 2022, 03:52:44 PM
I'm only basing my thoughts on what happens elsewhere. At Cheltenham and here for the CG they use Stagecoach but at Edgbaston it's your common or garden WMPTE and it's that shuttle service that would be easiest to replicate if the service is viable at all.
Again, it might be timescales. For Villa Park virtually everyone is getting there over a period of two hours before and 30 minutes after. I would guess Edgbaston crowds are more spread out.
From experience at the stadium this week I'd have to say that the 2 hours before and as short a window as possible afterwards is exactly how it went so whatever company is involved that's what needs to be delivered.
Post by: ian c. on August 08, 2022, 04:04:32 PM
It wouldn't just be one journey each way, you have a number of vehicles doing the journey a number of times depending on demand, that's how it works at other large entertainment or sporting events. For it would start at a given time, perhaps 1pm from town with the last bus departing at 2.15/2.30.
The return journey's start immediately after the final whistle and continue until there is no one left to pick up.
Post match beer and entertainment would, hopefully, spread demand over a couple of hours. You could screen highlights of the game, Stevie's post match excuses / digs at players, player interviews and stuff.
Post by: chrisw1 on August 08, 2022, 04:24:06 PM
Are there enough spare buses these days to have them hanging around for a few hours on Saturday afternoon?Nope, this is the key issue. And it doesn't sound like a particularly attractive option for a private operator.
Post by: Mister E on August 08, 2022, 04:26:55 PM
Sorry - I was being a little flippant. I no longer live in the area and so have no idea what comparative prices are like.Yes? Around the price it would cost with TFWM serviceWe need a speedy shuttle service from the Lichfield road area(plenty of space around ) that can use the bus lanes and carry people back to the city centre in 5 minutes ,a fair price would be £4 return.Four fucking quid???? - you serious??!!!
Post by: artvandelay on August 08, 2022, 04:27:18 PM
Post by: Ad@m on August 09, 2022, 10:26:10 PM
There are some similarities with Edgbaston but it's not identical - Edgbaston crowds are half what we get at the Villa and Edgbaston is served by much larger roads with "normal" bus routes all over them. So it arguably takes less for them to top up with specials to meet demand.
That said, at VP, they shouldn't try to get everyone home on a bus. The key issue is the overcrowding at Aston Station back in to town so they could put some shuttle buses on Lichfield Road and Witton Road back in to town to try to alleviate that specific issue.
Post by: PeterWithe on August 10, 2022, 06:14:28 AM
Are there enough spare buses these days to have them hanging around for a few hours on Saturday afternoon?
I read somewhere (actually, it might have been a previous page on this thread but I can't be arsed to look now I've stopped typing) that they had to bring in buses from all over the country to run these shuttles, so no, I suspect there wouldn't be.
I was in Cornwall yesterday and, as I sat in a traffic jam returning North, a fleet of 40/50 buses in Cornish livery came past the other way with Birmingham 2022 in the destination sign.
Post by: amfy on August 10, 2022, 07:33:06 AM
Are there enough spare buses these days to have them hanging around for a few hours on Saturday afternoon?
I read somewhere (actually, it might have been a previous page on this thread but I can't be arsed to look now I've stopped typing) that they had to bring in buses from all over the country to run these shuttles, so no, I suspect there wouldn't be.
Definitely true - We’ve actually had a reduced bus service running in Lancaster and Morecambe during the games (& just before) because Arriva sent so many buses to Birmingham!
Post by: wittonwarrior on August 10, 2022, 07:44:48 AM
Post by: sid1964 on August 10, 2022, 08:33:04 AM
If they brought that back I would use it again, it would save me turning up at Villa Park 3 hours before the game starts to get a parking place.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on August 10, 2022, 08:36:41 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on August 10, 2022, 08:53:49 AM
I just don't understand as to why they don't recommence special buses back to town. Worked really well in the 70's.If you read the posts above your it will give you a clue. Not enough buses, not financially viable. It's just not an atractive solution for a commercial operator.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on August 10, 2022, 09:09:33 AM
I just don't understand as to why they don't recommence special buses back to town. Worked really well in the 70's.If you read the posts above your it will give you a clue. Not enough buses, not financially viable. It's just not an atractive solution for a commercial operator.
In which case, the challenge for the club, the authorities and the operators is to work out a way to make it an attractive (or viable) solution because, as they say, doing nothing is not really an option.
Post by: chrisw1 on August 10, 2022, 09:18:43 AM
There's no way of making it commercially viable. It will need to be subsidised.I just don't understand as to why they don't recommence special buses back to town. Worked really well in the 70's.If you read the posts above your it will give you a clue. Not enough buses, not financially viable. It's just not an atractive solution for a commercial operator.
In which case, the challenge for the club, the authorities and the operators is to work out a way to make it an attractive (or viable) solution because, as they say, doing nothing is not really an option.
Post by: olaftab on August 10, 2022, 09:47:28 AM
I seem to remember someone on here (sorry can't remember who) said that the main reason the buses stopped was because Sky change the dates and times so often and with such short notice nowadays. It became impossible to plan overtime etc.
Are there enough spare buses these days to have them hanging around for a few hours on Saturday afternoon?Both these points are very valid. Yes more or less all matches kicked off at 3 on a Saturday. For general transport Saturdays had a limited bust service than weekdays so busses were available. Any Bus company will find it difficult to deal with current football schedule.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on August 10, 2022, 10:13:37 AM
There's no way of making it commercially viable. It will need to be subsidised.I just don't understand as to why they don't recommence special buses back to town. Worked really well in the 70's.If you read the posts above your it will give you a clue. Not enough buses, not financially viable. It's just not an atractive solution for a commercial operator.
In which case, the challenge for the club, the authorities and the operators is to work out a way to make it an attractive (or viable) solution because, as they say, doing nothing is not really an option.
So the issue would be, by how much and for how long, and who would be the provider? As part of any planning permission for the new stand there will be a section 106 agreement with obligations on the club to do all sorts of things and make all sorts of payments. Transport will be to the fore, I would imagine. It would be interesting to know just how many home supporters currently rely on public transport to get them back into the city centre after a game, and how many would use such provision were it available by improved means, hence how much it would all cost, and how much it might help ease the current situation.
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 10, 2022, 10:22:50 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on August 10, 2022, 10:31:46 AM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
I had to think hard for a while about that before it registered.
Maybe the early kick off is less appealing to those corporate event type people.
Post by: Gareth on August 10, 2022, 10:37:31 AM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
Not sure I’d do hospitality for a 12.30 kick off, the 3 hour bar before a 3pm is good, not sure it would be open at 9.30 :-)
What type of prices is hospitality nowadays?
Post by: Nev on August 10, 2022, 10:38:35 AM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
I had to think hard for a while about that before it registered.
Maybe the early kick off is less appealing to those corporate event type people.
They may have been sold as the fixtures were announced and then had cancellations when the ko time changed perhaps and they are looking to resell?
Post by: paul_e on August 10, 2022, 12:14:44 PM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
Not sure I’d do hospitality for a 12.30 kick off, the 3 hour bar before a 3pm is good, not sure it would be open at 9.30 :-)
What type of prices is hospitality nowadays?
Most sports venues won't be able to serve alcohol before 10am.
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 10, 2022, 12:34:38 PM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
I had to think hard for a while about that before it registered.
Maybe the early kick off is less appealing to those corporate event type people.
They may have been sold as the fixtures were announced and then had cancellations when the ko time changed perhaps and they are looking to resell?
I don't think you can resell corporates.
Post by: Ads on August 10, 2022, 01:03:46 PM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
I had to think hard for a while about that before it registered.
Maybe the early kick off is less appealing to those corporate event type people.
They may have been sold as the fixtures were announced and then had cancellations when the ko time changed perhaps and they are looking to resell?
I don't think you can resell corporates.
A firm we do business with has a box in the Trinity and they've asked if I fancy it this weekend as they can't get customers to wine and dine interested for the early kick off.
I've declined mind.
Post by: Concrete Tom on August 10, 2022, 05:59:49 PM
Are there enough spare buses these days to have them hanging around for a few hours on Saturday afternoon?
I read somewhere (actually, it might have been a previous page on this thread but I can't be arsed to look now I've stopped typing) that they had to bring in buses from all over the country to run these shuttles, so no, I suspect there wouldn't be.
I was in Cornwall yesterday and, as I sat in a traffic jam returning North, a fleet of 40/50 buses in Cornish livery came past the other way with Birmingham 2022 in the destination sign.
I grew up in Cornwall. It's nice to know that Cornish buses are being used for something, as it certainly isn't the wide ranging and reliable, regular service so desperately needed within Cornwall itself!
Post by: Gerrin on August 25, 2022, 08:16:12 AM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2022/august/25/aston-villa-unveils-new-cgis-of-villa-park-redevelopment/
Post by: Mister E on August 25, 2022, 08:27:25 AM
Some new CGI released.So, they're not infilling the corners wholly, then?
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2022/august/25/aston-villa-unveils-new-cgis-of-villa-park-redevelopment/
Post by: amfy on August 25, 2022, 08:35:42 AM
To change the subject slightly and moving into Bedrock territory, it's interesting that Villa are still selling hospitality packages for Everton and West Ham when they were sold out months in advance last season.
I had to think hard for a while about that before it registered.
Maybe the early kick off is less appealing to those corporate event type people.
They may have been sold as the fixtures were announced and then had cancellations when the ko time changed perhaps and they are looking to resell?
I don't think you can resell corporates.
When you buy a hospitality package you commit to it regardless of kick off changes. You need to be ready for the game you’ve booked to take place any time from Friday to Monday.
Last year we had one booked at the time when fixtures were being postponed indefinitely because of covid infections. A many teams had one or two fixtures put off til nearer the end of the season around that time. I asked whether the rule about committing regardless of changes would apply and they ‘weren’t sure’.
There definitely won’t be cancellations - it’s not possible.
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 08:38:49 AM
I also hope the away fans are still going to reside where they do, as they'll be drowned out by that large lower tier. Looks good!
Post by: Dogtanian on August 25, 2022, 08:52:38 AM
I like the market street bit, that would be good. Can't see many people buying a delicate orchid and sitting with it through a match though.
Post by: Axl Rose on August 25, 2022, 08:53:43 AM
The Villa live bit is interesting. Looks like the back bit that was left blank on the earlier images is going to be a carpark still, and there are two things behind the Villa live building that I can't quite make out what they are.
I like the market street bit, that would be good. Can't see many people buying a delicate orchid and sitting with it through a match though.
More elegant to throw than a cabbage, maybe?
Looks great though, this redevelopment.
Post by: Dogtanian on August 25, 2022, 08:58:34 AM
Post by: nigel on August 25, 2022, 09:03:09 AM
Post by: Border villan on August 25, 2022, 09:10:42 AM
Post by: john e on August 25, 2022, 09:30:54 AM
compromise with the corners but still looks like 4 separate stands, spot on in my view
Post by: ajmant on August 25, 2022, 09:39:53 AM
Note to design team. If we change the badge..........get the right crest on the buildings.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 25, 2022, 09:42:11 AM
Might be an optical illusion/delusion .
God knows, we’ve all encountered plenty of optical delusion at Villa Park over the years
Post by: sid1964 on August 25, 2022, 09:43:55 AM
Post by: SamTheMouse on August 25, 2022, 09:54:49 AM
The cramped space around VP is a drawback in some ways, I suppose, but mainly it's what makes it a proper football ground instead of one of those soulless industrial parks that pass for stadiums these days.
Post by: colin69 on August 25, 2022, 10:08:08 AM
Post by: Concrete Tom on August 25, 2022, 10:12:59 AM
It really does look smart. Just need a successful football team to play in it now.
Hope the CADs are true to life - looks like we're celebrating a goal at the Holte.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 25, 2022, 10:15:37 AM
Post by: LukeJames on August 25, 2022, 10:19:10 AM
It really does look smart. Just need a successful football team to play in it now.
Hope the CADs are true to life - looks like we're celebrating a goal at the Holte.
And were doing it with 10 men aswell. Massive!
Post by: LeeB on August 25, 2022, 10:20:36 AM
Post by: Nev on August 25, 2022, 10:24:09 AM
It's a disgrace etc etc
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 25, 2022, 10:32:27 AM
I didn't a line of WUMPTE buses waiting to ferry people back into Town.
It's a disgrace etc etc
So-called match attenders.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on August 25, 2022, 10:37:28 AM
Post by: Nev on August 25, 2022, 10:46:35 AM
I like the market street bit, that would be good. Can't see many people buying a delicate orchid and sitting with it through a match though.
If you sat in the UH with one for the Everton match it would've been the size of a triffid by full time such was the heat generated by the sun blasting through the glass.
Post by: FrankyH on August 25, 2022, 10:48:46 AM
The Villa live bit is interesting. Looks like the back bit that was left blank on the earlier images is going to be a carpark still, and there are two things behind the Villa live building that I can't quite make out what they are.
I like the market street bit, that would be good. Can't see many people buying a delicate orchid and sitting with it through a match though.
I thought of the film "Oliver" and Mark Lester singing "Who will buy my wonderful red roses" when I saw that image on the website !!!
Post by: maidstonevillain on August 25, 2022, 10:57:46 AM
Post by: eamonn on August 25, 2022, 11:06:52 AM
Post by: olaftab on August 25, 2022, 11:07:30 AM
Haha yeah, they take our bottle caps off us but a nice terracotta plant pot is actively encouraged! 8)Reminds me of:
(https://i.ibb.co/Fn7jSp4/hqdefault.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fn7jSp4)
Post by: Nii Lamptey on August 25, 2022, 11:32:23 AM
Only question mark I'd have is building the badge into the brickwork - Feels a bit too permanent considering they change the crest more than night turns to day!
Post by: Woofles The Wonder Dog on August 25, 2022, 11:46:00 AM
It looks like Witton Lane is fully blocked off in those shots, unless I'm mistaken. That's quite a significant move if so.
Witton Lane looks the same to me, it’s Trinity Road is kinked. I think.
Post by: Behind Bluenose Lines on August 25, 2022, 11:57:23 AM
Post by: Risso on August 25, 2022, 12:02:59 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/LYCj9yr/Screenshot-2022-08-25-at-11-50-15.png) (https://ibb.co/LYCj9yr)
Post by: Mister E on August 25, 2022, 12:13:38 PM
Witton is definitely blocked off, the end of the road is now a continuation of the pedestrianised bit outside what will be Villa Live.In that shot, is the floodlit pitch at the bottom the new inner-city academy ground / training area?
(https://i.ibb.co/LYCj9yr/Screenshot-2022-08-25-at-11-50-15.png) (https://ibb.co/LYCj9yr)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 25, 2022, 12:30:00 PM
Witton is definitely blocked off, the end of the road is now a continuation of the pedestrianised bit outside what will be Villa Live.In that shot, is the floodlit pitch at the bottom the new inner-city academy ground / training area?
(https://i.ibb.co/LYCj9yr/Screenshot-2022-08-25-at-11-50-15.png) (https://ibb.co/LYCj9yr)
Yes, that is already under construction
Post by: cdbearsfan on August 25, 2022, 12:34:36 PM
Post by: rjp on August 25, 2022, 12:42:11 PM
It looks like there's a coach park the Trinity side of Villa Live.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 25, 2022, 12:52:06 PM
One bit of confusion - it talks about increasing capacity to over 50k by adding 7400 seats - surely that's not enough? Isn't the full capacity below 42k these days (it was 42640 for ages).
Although thinking about it, maybe moving the pitch entrance creates more room for seats.
Post by: Des Little on August 25, 2022, 01:02:53 PM
Post by: LeeB on August 25, 2022, 01:09:50 PM
It's exactly how Dr Shittyshoes imagined it
Just missing the Wiiliam McGregor Ghost Train, the Alpaypalooza roller coaster, and the 4D Interactive Monosodium Glutamate Experience.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on August 25, 2022, 01:13:23 PM
Post by: olaftab on August 25, 2022, 01:13:25 PM
If you download the pdf on that link, it gives you a bit more info. Moving the pitchside entrance to the corner, re-configuring the Trinity a bit.Actual capacity is still about 42.6 but last season and this season we have not been able to hit that due to hospitality sales. 7/800 unsold seats reserved for hospitality take our so call full house down to about 41800.
One bit of confusion - it talks about increasing capacity to over 50k by adding 7400 seats - surely that's not enough? Isn't the full capacity below 42k these days (it was 42640 for ages).
Although thinking about it, maybe moving the pitch entrance creates more room for seats.
Post by: cdbearsfan on August 25, 2022, 01:27:20 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 25, 2022, 01:48:19 PM
It's exactly how Dr Shittyshoes imagined it
Just missing the Wiiliam McGregor Ghost Train, the Alpaypalooza roller coaster, and the 4D Interactive Monosodium Glutamate Experience.
Just as long as there's no Dollywood.
Post by: Des Little on August 25, 2022, 01:52:06 PM
It's exactly how Dr Shittyshoes imagined it
Just missing the Wiiliam McGregor Ghost Train, the Alpaypalooza roller coaster, and the 4D Interactive Monosodium Glutamate Experience.
Just as long as there's no Dollywood.
You mean D O'Llywood?
Post by: Risso on August 25, 2022, 01:53:53 PM
Post by: TonyD on August 25, 2022, 02:12:38 PM
Looking at the arial picture, the Holte End is shouting to be extended out over Trinity. Surely than can be done fairly cheaply and give a few thousand extra seats.I think it needs to be returned to its former glory. Rebuild a new one tier giant.
Post by: LeeB on August 25, 2022, 02:14:25 PM
Looking at the arial picture, the Holte End is shouting to be extended out over Trinity. Surely than can be done fairly cheaply and give a few thousand extra seats.I think it needs to be returned to its former glory. Rebuild a new one tier giant.
Yes, and split in down the middle and wrap it brown and red cladding on the outside.
Post by: Simon Page on August 25, 2022, 02:25:59 PM
Post by: Nev on August 25, 2022, 02:30:54 PM
In the spirit of making this a proper H&V row - rather than the hideous yogurt knitting consensus of niceness we've had so far today - I really dislike the proposed roof design on the new Witton End. And when did Trinity Road change its name?
Calling the Trinity Road Stand the "Trinity Stand" grinds my gears, it's name should remain as should The Holte End (not stand), the Witton Lane Stand and North Stand.
No sponsorships, no tributes, no arguments.
Post by: langleylions on August 25, 2022, 03:34:27 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on August 25, 2022, 03:53:38 PM
I do like it but as with everything Villa put out these days on paper/ CP talk it looks and sounds great but in reality it's crap
Post by: Axl Rose on August 25, 2022, 04:01:45 PM
Could all be put on hold next summer if performances continue as they have been this year.
I do like it but as with everything Villa put out these days on paper/ CP talk it looks and sounds great but in reality it's crap
Haha.
I love you Flin5tone. You make me look sickeningly positive in comparison.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on August 25, 2022, 04:21:25 PM
In the spirit of making this a proper H&V row - rather than the hideous yogurt knitting consensus of niceness we've had so far today - I really dislike the proposed roof design on the new Witton End. And when did Trinity Road change its name?
Yes, the top half and the roof of the new stand do look peculiar on that view from the Holte End.
Post by: coreyfeldman on August 25, 2022, 04:25:55 PM
Could all be put on hold next summer if performances continue as they have been this year.
I do like it but as with everything Villa put out these days on paper/ CP talk it looks and sounds great but in reality it's crap
I'm wondering if maybe you need to take some time off, get away from it, clear your head, practice some mindfulness or take up jigsaws or something. I hope you get the help that you need anyway
Post by: Border villan on August 25, 2022, 04:39:44 PM
Could all be put on hold next summer if performances continue as they have been this year.
I do like it but as with everything Villa put out these days on paper/ CP talk it looks and sounds great but in reality it's crap
I know a lot of us Brummies have a glass half empty approach to life but your one has a hole in its arse that you talk through.
Post by: The Edge on August 25, 2022, 04:52:37 PM
It says Trinity Road Stand on the side just below the est1874.In the spirit of making this a proper H&V row - rather than the hideous yogurt knitting consensus of niceness we've had so far today - I really dislike the proposed roof design on the new Witton End. And when did Trinity Road change its name?
Calling the Trinity Road Stand the "Trinity Stand" grinds my gears, it's name should remain as should The Holte End (not stand), the Witton Lane Stand and North Stand.
No sponsorships, no tributes, no arguments.
Post by: Nev on August 25, 2022, 05:09:01 PM
It says Trinity Road Stand on the side just below the est1874.In the spirit of making this a proper H&V row - rather than the hideous yogurt knitting consensus of niceness we've had so far today - I really dislike the proposed roof design on the new Witton End. And when did Trinity Road change its name?
Calling the Trinity Road Stand the "Trinity Stand" grinds my gears, it's name should remain as should The Holte End (not stand), the Witton Lane Stand and North Stand.
No sponsorships, no tributes, no arguments.
It does indeed but the blurb (and Purslow in the past) didn't call it that.
Post by: saunders_heroes on August 25, 2022, 05:09:15 PM
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on August 25, 2022, 05:13:52 PM
Post by: saunders_heroes on August 25, 2022, 05:19:13 PM
Looks great on the outside but I must confess to being slightly underwhelmed by how the new North Stand looks from inside the stadium. It looks just like the Holte End to me and I’d hoped we’d take this opportunity to do something a bit different, with a bit of a Wow factor. As Spurs have done with their huge single tier end, as one example.
I’d rather wait for an upgrade to the actual Holte End to make it a single tier monster of a stand again.
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 05:20:16 PM
Could all be put on hold next summer if performances continue as they have been this year.
I do like it but as with everything Villa put out these days on paper/ CP talk it looks and sounds great but in reality it's crap
I know a lot of us Brummies have a glass half empty approach to life but your one has a hole in its arse that you talk through.
He's from Alcester, not Brum, the middle class toff.
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 25, 2022, 05:21:24 PM
Looks great on the outside but I must confess to being slightly underwhelmed by how the new North Stand looks from inside the stadium. It looks just like the Holte End to me and I’d hoped we’d take this opportunity to do something a bit different, with a bit of a Wow factor. As Spurs have done with their huge single tier end, as one example.
I’d rather wait for an upgrade to the actual Holte End to make it a single tier monster of a stand again.
You're not going to have a single tier stand ever again. Corporates will see to that.
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on August 25, 2022, 05:37:17 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on August 25, 2022, 05:46:31 PM
Could all be put on hold next summer if performances continue as they have been this year.
I do like it but as with everything Villa put out these days on paper/ CP talk it looks and sounds great but in reality it's crap
I know a lot of us Brummies have a glass half empty approach to life but your one has a hole in its arse that you talk through.
He's from Alcester, not Brum, the middle class toff.
Gosh no , if you are from Stratford upon Avon Lovey 😉😃
Post by: levico on August 25, 2022, 06:03:41 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on August 25, 2022, 06:18:50 PM
Looks very good. Unlike some (well one at least)I think we should press on with this irrespective of what’s happening on the pitch. When an owner shows this kind of ambition we should embrace it.Exactly, these guys are not going to invest in a state of the art stadium to then accept us get rogered by the likes of Fkin Bournemouth.
Post by: Villa Lew on August 25, 2022, 07:31:16 PM
Post by: TonyD on August 25, 2022, 07:40:40 PM
No split . Just a big sea of humanity.Looking at the arial picture, the Holte End is shouting to be extended out over Trinity. Surely than can be done fairly cheaply and give a few thousand extra seats.I think it needs to be returned to its former glory. Rebuild a new one tier giant.
Yes, and split in down the middle and wrap it brown and red cladding on the outside.
Post by: exigo on August 25, 2022, 08:41:32 PM
Looks great on the outside but I must confess to being slightly underwhelmed by how the new North Stand looks from inside the stadium. It looks just like the Holte End to me and I’d hoped we’d take this opportunity to do something a bit different, with a bit of a Wow factor. As Spurs have done with their huge single tier end, as one example.
Glad it's not just me. Looks spot on from the outside – real nod to the heritage but with a modern twist.
But, not sure that the inside is really answering the issues we have.
First up, the open corners mean a lot of the atmosphere drifts out in the present set-up. Spurs looked at the acoustics as part of the design, this feels like you'll be able to hear the North Stand better from Erdington than the Holte.
Second, we know we're pressed for space, so I was expecting more of a Dortmund approach – keeping the integrity of four stands, but taking them right out into the corners.
Third, it feels like the wings have been dictated by the Witton Lane Stand – you'll barely be able to see the all the pitch from the top right corner. Surprised they haven't ripped out part of the roof over the away end, and taken it right up to the North, a bit like Anfield has done.
Rather suggests that we'll keep adding random stands to Villa Park for eternity. And much as I love the uniqueness of our place, a bit of coherence for the future has always been our weak point. Can't imagine we'll ever be able to mirror the Trinity on the other side, so maybe suggests we'll one day wrap the lower North round towards the Holte as a single tier, and stick more corporate on top.
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 09:09:54 PM
Post by: Oklahoma on August 25, 2022, 10:05:23 PM
Awkward intersections between new and existing roof lines. Looks muddled from inside and out.
I hope the Trinity 'enhancements' mean a complete exterior upgrade/re-think. Our current main stand is an eyesore and absolute abomination. Who knows what can be done with the WLS.
I want to see the complete vision, the grand design for the future VP. How are they planning on tying it all together through these multi-phases?
UTV
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 10:07:48 PM
Post by: darren woolley on August 25, 2022, 10:14:12 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 25, 2022, 10:32:56 PM
I like it can't wait until it's all completed.
Same here.
Post by: Beard82 on August 25, 2022, 10:34:31 PM
Ive heard if we start queue now we can shoudl be able to get a pint at half time on opening night
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 10:34:40 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 25, 2022, 10:42:41 PM
Important to remember this still isn't the final design and is just a mock up.
Planning application goes in next week, so I reckon it'll be pretty close to what goes in.
I really like the brick, it is classy and what you'd expect from a ground like Villa Park, the worst thing would have been steel and glass bollocks.
For me the key is that the brickwork of what actually gets built is up to the quality of the renders.
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 10:45:40 PM
Important to remember this still isn't the final design and is just a mock up.
Planning application goes in next week, so I reckon it'll be pretty close to what goes in.
I really like the brick, it is classy and what you'd expect from a ground like Villa Park, the worst thing would have been steel and glass bollocks.
For me the key is that the brickwork of what actually gets built is up to the quality of the renders.
I agree there, but I just don't think it will be open air in the upper corners. Imagine how insanely cold it would be if you were on either little row?!
Also if you look at the multi-use/farmers market bit, there appears to be glass running down the side of the space.
I really like it and agree with your comments on the brickwork. Can't wait to stare at the big, beautiful, bugger from my seat in the near future.
Post by: saunders_heroes on August 25, 2022, 10:47:53 PM
It's not an abomination, it's a far more impressive stand to look at from the inside of Villa Park. It was obviously a lot nicer outside than the current one, which is pretty nondescript.
Agreed. It’s not an eyesore or an abomination, what a ridiculous overreaction. The outside of the TR stand would look so much better with a few red bricks and mosaics but it looks fantastic on the inside.
If these new plans we saw today are just mock ups, when are we to see the final plans and how different could they look??
Post by: Ads on August 25, 2022, 10:53:10 PM
It's not an abomination, it's a far more impressive stand to look at from the inside of Villa Park. It was obviously a lot nicer outside than the current one, which is pretty nondescript.
Agreed. It’s not an eyesore or an abomination, what a ridiculous overreaction. The outside of the TR stand would look so much better with a few red bricks and mosaics but it looks fantastic on the inside.
If these new plans we saw today are just mock ups, when are we to see the final plans and how different could they look??
Paulie is right, what we've seen will be very close to the final planning submission. I just meant that not every detail will be clear (such as the apparent open air behind the score board) which looks different on an external shot.
Post by: ChicagoLion on August 25, 2022, 10:53:24 PM
Very sad.
Post by: BC Villain on August 25, 2022, 11:09:57 PM
Looks great on the outside but I must confess to being slightly underwhelmed by how the new North Stand looks from inside the stadium. It looks just like the Holte End to me and I’d hoped we’d take this opportunity to do something a bit different, with a bit of a Wow factor. As Spurs have done with their huge single tier end, as one example.
Glad it's not just me. Looks spot on from the outside – real nod to the heritage but with a modern twist.
But, not sure that the inside is really answering the issues we have.
First up, the open corners mean a lot of the atmosphere drifts out in the present set-up. Spurs looked at the acoustics as part of the design, this feels like you'll be able to hear the North Stand better from Erdington than the Holte.
Second, we know we're pressed for space, so I was expecting more of a Dortmund approach – keeping the integrity of four stands, but taking them right out into the corners.
Third, it feels like the wings have been dictated by the Witton Lane Stand – you'll barely be able to see the all the pitch from the top right corner. Surprised they haven't ripped out part of the roof over the away end, and taken it right up to the North, a bit like Anfield has done.
Rather suggests that we'll keep adding random stands to Villa Park for eternity. And much as I love the uniqueness of our place, a bit of coherence for the future has always been our weak point. Can't imagine we'll ever be able to mirror the Trinity on the other side, so maybe suggests we'll one day wrap the lower North round towards the Holte as a single tier, and stick more corporate on top.
Same for me. I think the entire structure looks pretty bland and souless. A bit disappointing that they got a blank sheet to start with, and what they've come up with is somewhat meh
Post by: Hillbilly on August 26, 2022, 03:33:27 AM
Post by: Scott Nielsen on August 26, 2022, 04:19:54 AM
Post by: Dazvillain on August 26, 2022, 06:54:27 AM
Will we get more detailed drawings when planning is submitted ?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 26, 2022, 10:45:34 AM
I like it. I only wish the work could be started sooner than 2024.
It says late 23 on the site. Although I guess depends on how late that means.
I wonder if that means no north stand at all from start next season or if they’ll do work on the public areas and Villa Live bit first then demolish and rebuild the stand in the 24-5 season.
It says they aim to complete in late 2025 so that might be the case.
Actually one other thing to consider - maybe this work all has to be in sync with the improvements to public transport (Witton station etc) hence the long timeline.
Post by: London Villan on August 26, 2022, 10:55:58 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on August 26, 2022, 10:57:16 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on August 26, 2022, 10:57:39 AM
It's a bit 'new London vernacular'.
Brick Cladding is far more preferable to wrinkly tin. Besides, historically it's been a brick orientated stadium until Ellis era brutalism made it's mark.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 26, 2022, 11:03:02 AM
Besides, historically it's been a brick orientated stadium until Ellis era brutalism made it's mark.
Yep, that's why doing it in brick means we can rebuilt some of that 'feel' and identity about the ground.
Post by: London Villan on August 26, 2022, 11:04:16 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 26, 2022, 11:22:54 AM
Post by: olaftab on August 26, 2022, 11:26:29 AM
Is it beyond the wit of the city council, Villa and a bus operator to have a "red route" into town and maybe Erdington/Sutton for an hour post-match on which shuttle buses can backwards and forwards?No fuck NO.
Post by: Hillbilly on August 26, 2022, 11:31:22 AM
No objection to the brick facade but it’s flat and bland.It's a bit 'new London vernacular'.
Brick Cladding is far more preferable to wrinkly tin. Besides, historically it's been a brick orientated stadium until Ellis era brutalism made it's mark.
Post by: London Villan on August 26, 2022, 11:37:36 AM
You can't just stop normal life because there's a football match on.
I disagree - Villa bring £000s into the city - it's the city's only regular big high-profile sporting event, which in turn causes traffic problems post match. If the city is serious about cutting traffic, then the creation of public transport priority routes post match for an hour after the game which will be away from the working day by the nature of kick-off times, should be something that is looked at. The same way it was for the CWGs.
The buses (assuming this is the easiest win) could head down Aston Lane and feed into the new bus lanes on the A34.
Post by: kipeye on August 26, 2022, 11:42:58 AM
You make it sound like Ellis was a fan of Brutalism. His methods were cheap and cheerless.It's a bit 'new London vernacular'.
Brick Cladding is far more preferable to wrinkly tin. Besides, historically it's been a brick orientated stadium until Ellis era brutalism made it's mark.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on August 26, 2022, 12:47:40 PM
I like it. I only wish the work could be started sooner than 2024.
It says late 23 on the site. Although I guess depends on how late that means.
I wonder if that means no north stand at all from start next season or if they’ll do work on the public areas and Villa Live bit first then demolish and rebuild the stand in the 24-5 season.
It says they aim to complete in late 2025 so that might be the case.
Actually one other thing to consider - maybe this work all has to be in sync with the improvements to public transport (Witton station etc) hence the long timeline.
Oh. This is from the FAQ:
"Construction work is due to begin in early 2024 and we expect work to last between 18-24 months, subject to planning."
Post by: Smirker on August 26, 2022, 01:55:23 PM
Those renders look cracking. MASSIVE improvement on that grey monstrosity we currently have.
Only question mark I'd have is building the badge into the brickwork - Feels a bit too permanent considering they change the crest more than night turns to day!
Not if they only build the lion into it 😎
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 26, 2022, 02:10:33 PM
Brick Cladding is far more preferable to wrinkly tin. Besides, historically it's been a brick orientated stadium until Ellis era brutalism made it's mark.
No objection to the brick facade but it’s flat and bland.
I can understand that view and I would have liked a design with more features like the Holte's stairs but probably not possible if they're trying to make the 'Villa Live' venue as large as possible. Looking forward to meeting Pete Beale on his stall though.
Post by: Toronto Villa on August 26, 2022, 03:37:26 PM
Post by: KevinGage on August 26, 2022, 03:44:04 PM
But would Fred Rinder have settled for perfectly adequate?
Would have been nice to see a nod to the past and more wow factor.
Post by: ChicagoLion on August 26, 2022, 03:57:56 PM
I think it looks superb overall. My concern like most is that we might be a lower tier PL club when it all gets done. Not a team entertaining Bayern Munich in a beautiful Autumn European football night.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on August 26, 2022, 04:03:49 PM
It looks perfectly adequate.
But would Fred Rinder have settled for perfectly adequate?
Exactly what I thought when I saw the pictures.
It’s great that we’re increasing the capacity and it looks OK but it’s not exactly the money-no-object, architectural gem that the Trinity was.
I wonder what we’ll think of it in 30 years’ time.
Post by: Border villan on August 26, 2022, 04:06:19 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on August 26, 2022, 04:07:41 PM
Some of us will be happy to be thinking in 30 years time.
Well yeah. I meant what our kids will think of it in 30 years. It’s a legacy innit
Post by: IFWaters on August 26, 2022, 06:04:59 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on August 26, 2022, 06:19:20 PM
You can't just stop normal life because there's a football match on.
We did when there was athletics going on.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 26, 2022, 06:33:57 PM
You can't just stop normal life because there's a football match on.
We did when there was athletics going on.
A once in a lifetime event.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 26, 2022, 06:48:17 PM
You can't just stop normal life because there's a football match on.
We did when there was athletics going on.
A once in a lifetime event.
Hopefully not.
but I know what you mean.
Post by: cdbearsfan on August 26, 2022, 07:44:13 PM
You can't just stop normal life because there's a football match on.
We did when there was athletics going on.
A once in a lifetime event.
With smaller crowds, more spread out (time wise) than ours are. They've shown they can do it, no excuse to keep treating Villa fans like shit now.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 26, 2022, 07:45:45 PM
You can't just stop normal life because there's a football match on.
We did when there was athletics going on.
A once in a lifetime event.
With smaller crowds, more spread out (time wise) than ours are. They've shown they can do it, no excuse to keep treating Villa fans like shit now.
They had to rope in buses from as far away as Scotland to do it, though.
There's no way they're going to start red routing all over the shop. Imagine the administration and enforcement of that for a start.
Post by: cdbearsfan on August 26, 2022, 07:49:50 PM
Post by: Ads on August 26, 2022, 08:39:53 PM
Post by: olaftab on August 26, 2022, 10:50:19 PM
Post by: Smirker on August 26, 2022, 11:02:27 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on August 27, 2022, 07:22:54 AM
Do you think it's possible to 1) extend the Holte over the road and 2) extend the DE?
I think the Doug Ellis would be the next one to be replaced.
They spoke of matching up the new North with Trinity, but no mention of the Doug. They’re keen to improve corporate offerings and get people spending more time and money at the game, but the cramped horror of the Doug is not going to allow that there. Plus if you look at the new mock-ups, the Doug looks dwarfed and very much the odd stand out.
Post by: DB on August 27, 2022, 09:54:34 AM
Do you think it's possible to 1) extend the Holte over the road and 2) extend the DE?
That slice of the end of the upper Holte on the old Left side, yes, love to see that squared off.
Post by: olaftab on August 27, 2022, 10:11:32 AM
Post by: N'ZMAV on August 27, 2022, 10:15:33 AM
Is it possible to hear some noise from the Holte?Just booing.
Post by: Chris Smith on August 27, 2022, 10:36:01 AM
Is it possible to hear some noise from the Holte?
Probably not from Castle Bromwich.
The acoustics at VP are odd. From the LH I rarely hear the North Stand even though I can see that they are up and singing in the bottom corner. Similarly with the away fans, it’s only when the rest of the ground goes quiet that the noise arrives.
Post by: Billy Walker on August 27, 2022, 12:12:18 PM
Do you think it's possible to 1) extend the Holte over the road and 2) extend the DE?
I think the Doug Ellis would be the next one to be replaced.
They spoke of matching up the new North with Trinity, but no mention of the Doug. They’re keen to improve corporate offerings and get people spending more time and money at the game, but the cramped horror of the Doug is not going to allow that there. Plus if you look at the new mock-ups, the Doug looks dwarfed and very much the odd stand out.
Looking at the CGIs released the other day, following the line of the proposed new North Stand's executive boxes, it looks very much like this new stand will eventually connect into a new Witton Lane stand, mirroring the size and scale of the current Trinity Road Stand.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 27, 2022, 01:55:38 PM
The acoustics at VP are odd. From the LH I rarely hear the North Stand even though I can see that they are up and singing in the bottom corner. Similarly with the away fans, it’s only when the rest of the ground goes quiet that the noise arrives.
A couple of my cousins are Baggies fans and for as long I've known them would mention the "lack" of atmosphere at VP although they did acknowledge that the sound doesn't seem to carry from the Holte. Was at the home game against them in 2002/03 and my uncle was ill on the morning of the game so I gave his ticket (Upper Holte) to my cousin. He managed to remain incognito but about halfway through the second-half turned to me and said "F*ck me, it's loud in here". The Hitzlsperger winner then rounded off a very good day. :)
Post by: algy on August 27, 2022, 06:41:24 PM
Regarding the corners I would like to see copies of the Byzantine towers at Birmingham University. Redbrick with sandstone, great big arched windows topped with metal domes. Make each one a pavillion of Sports, Arts, Science and Faith with permanent and changing displays. Add some culture to matchdays and mark us out as the Rolls Royce of a football club we uniquely are.That would be beautiful, and entirely fitting of the greatest football club the world's ever seen.
Post by: Rory on August 27, 2022, 06:50:27 PM
The acoustics at VP are odd. From the LH I rarely hear the North Stand even though I can see that they are up and singing in the bottom corner. Similarly with the away fans, it’s only when the rest of the ground goes quiet that the noise arrives.
A couple of my cousins are Baggies fans and for as long I've known them would mention the "lack" of atmosphere at VP
That'll be because we don't have a man dressed up as a boiler to gee everyone up.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on August 27, 2022, 06:55:21 PM
The acoustics at VP are odd. From the LH I rarely hear the North Stand even though I can see that they are up and singing in the bottom corner. Similarly with the away fans, it’s only when the rest of the ground goes quiet that the noise arrives.
A couple of my cousins are Baggies fans and for as long I've known them would mention the "lack" of atmosphere at VP although they did acknowledge that the sound doesn't seem to carry from the Holte. Was at the home game against them in 2002/03 and my uncle was ill on the morning of the game so I gave his ticket (Upper Holte) to my cousin. He managed to remain incognito but about halfway through the second-half turned to me and said "F*ck me, it's loud in here". The Hitzlsperger winner then rounded off a very good day. :)
An Albion supporting colleague of mine went with a friend to see us play Wolves at home a couple of years ago.
His feedback was that he couldn't believe the atmosphere.
Post by: OCD on August 27, 2022, 07:00:48 PM
Do you think it's possible to 1) extend the Holte over the road and 2) extend the DE?
I think the Doug Ellis would be the next one to be replaced.
They spoke of matching up the new North with Trinity, but no mention of the Doug. They’re keen to improve corporate offerings and get people spending more time and money at the game, but the cramped horror of the Doug is not going to allow that there. Plus if you look at the new mock-ups, the Doug looks dwarfed and very much the odd stand out.
It's bigger than both Trinity and Witton Lane Stands. Presumably they'll both be re-built so that all 4 stands are the same height.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 27, 2022, 07:19:49 PM
A couple of my cousins are Baggies fans and for as long I've known them would mention the "lack" of atmosphere at VP although they did acknowledge that the sound doesn't seem to carry from the Holte. Was at the home game against them in 2002/03 and my uncle was ill on the morning of the game so I gave his ticket (Upper Holte) to my cousin. He managed to remain incognito but about halfway through the second-half turned to me and said "F*ck me, it's loud in here". The Hitzlsperger winner then rounded off a very good day. :)
An Albion supporting colleague of mine went with a friend to see us play Wolves at home a couple of years ago.
His feedback was that he couldn't believe the atmosphere.
Imagine if they'd been at the Atletico Madrid game.
Post by: Bad English on August 27, 2022, 07:59:50 PM
Post by: olaftab on August 27, 2022, 08:24:46 PM
Very funny...NOT! ;)Is it possible to hear some noise from the Holte?
Probably not from Castle Bromwich.
Post by: FatSam on August 28, 2022, 07:37:51 AM
Regarding the corners I would like to see copies of the Byzantine towers at Birmingham University. Redbrick with sandstone, great big arched windows topped with metal domes. Make each one a pavillion of Sports, Arts, Science and Faith with permanent and changing displays. Add some culture to matchdays and mark us out as the Rolls Royce of a football club we uniquely are.I agree to an extent with the ambition of your post - the history and status of VP is one of the things that makes our club special. I worry that this has been diminished over time, through a lack of thought or understanding of what makes it special, to the point where there is a danger that only we (Villa supporters) will have any appreciation that it was the case.
I don’t think that Birmingham University is a particularly relevant precedent, but there were obviously some imposing Victorian buildings behind the Witton End, which could have informed the architecture of this stand.
I do think that the use of brick in the new design is generally a good thing, but do think that the design isn’t very distinctive. The brick is almost used by default to be ‘contextual’. I would like it to be more of a landmark on the area by virtue of it’s distinctiveness rather than simply it’s size.
My other concerns are that the new stand should be larger (as this end of the ground really is the only way to push the capacity up), and should be called the Witton End, as the North Stand is bland and generic.
Post by: Scratchins on August 28, 2022, 08:14:50 AM
A couple of my cousins are Baggies fans and for as long I've known them would mention the "lack" of atmosphere at VP although they did acknowledge that the sound doesn't seem to carry from the Holte. Was at the home game against them in 2002/03 and my uncle was ill on the morning of the game so I gave his ticket (Upper Holte) to my cousin. He managed to remain incognito but about halfway through the second-half turned to me and said "F*ck me, it's loud in here". The Hitzlsperger winner then rounded off a very good day. :)
An Albion supporting colleague of mine went with a friend to see us play Wolves at home a couple of years ago.
His feedback was that he couldn't believe the atmosphere.
Imagine if they'd been at the Atletico Madrid game.
When Collymore scored it felt as though the stands went out and came back again like a cartoon. The noise was tremendous.
Post by: Ads on August 28, 2022, 06:41:01 PM
Post by: IFWaters on August 28, 2022, 07:11:38 PM
It would be like going to her Maj saying we're going to rebuild Windsor castle in the style of a large Aldi. Sacrilege!
Post by: Rory on August 28, 2022, 07:32:02 PM
I think for the Villa Park rebuild to work it has to utilise our history. Aston Villa were the first giant of world football. Our history is our identity. In that time we were the Real Madrid of that era. The ground design needs to take that DNA of redbrick late Victorian / Edwardian Birmingham. Take inspiration from the old Trinity and other local redbrick landmarks for its outer appearance. To me the design I've seen is just a red brick wall. It's the right colour and material but that's about it. The outside of the trinity needs to be redone in that way.
It would be like going to her Maj saying we're going to rebuild Windsor castle in the style of a large Aldi. Sacrilege!
To be fair, I think trying to imitate too closely Victorian/Edwardian architecture with modern materials could well end up tacky and a bit like a theme park. I like the pictures, personally.
Just my opinion.
Post by: IFWaters on August 28, 2022, 09:19:44 PM
Ok but when Rolls Royce build a new car it's still a Rolls Royce. It still looks the part because of its design DNA and because the designers are trying to build the best car possible. Same with Villa Park. It should leave other fans speechless due to its stature, quality and size. This just looks like a bit of brick cladding. Tacky. Same as everybody else. Not good enough.I think for the Villa Park rebuild to work it has to utilise our history. Aston Villa were the first giant of world football. Our history is our identity. In that time we were the Real Madrid of that era. The ground design needs to take that DNA of redbrick late Victorian / Edwardian Birmingham. Take inspiration from the old Trinity and other local redbrick landmarks for its outer appearance. To me the design I've seen is just a red brick wall. It's the right colour and material but that's about it. The outside of the trinity needs to be redone in that way.
It would be like going to her Maj saying we're going to rebuild Windsor castle in the style of a large Aldi. Sacrilege!
To be fair, I think trying to imitate too closely Victorian/Edwardian architecture with modern materials could well end up tacky and a bit like a theme park. I like the pictures, personally.
Just my opinion.
Post by: Rory on August 28, 2022, 09:23:10 PM
Ok but when Rolls Royce build a new car it's still a Rolls Royce. It still looks the part because of its design DNA and because the designers are trying to build the best car possible. Same with Villa Park. It should leave other fans speechless due to its stature, quality and size. This just looks like a bit of brick cladding. Tacky. Same as everybody else. Not good enough.I think for the Villa Park rebuild to work it has to utilise our history. Aston Villa were the first giant of world football. Our history is our identity. In that time we were the Real Madrid of that era. The ground design needs to take that DNA of redbrick late Victorian / Edwardian Birmingham. Take inspiration from the old Trinity and other local redbrick landmarks for its outer appearance. To me the design I've seen is just a red brick wall. It's the right colour and material but that's about it. The outside of the trinity needs to be redone in that way.
It would be like going to her Maj saying we're going to rebuild Windsor castle in the style of a large Aldi. Sacrilege!
To be fair, I think trying to imitate too closely Victorian/Edwardian architecture with modern materials could well end up tacky and a bit like a theme park. I like the pictures, personally.
Just my opinion.
I know what you mean. Just think we need to be careful not to end up looking like a cross between Disneyland & the Black Country Museum.
Post by: Risso on August 28, 2022, 09:25:07 PM
Post by: CT Villan on August 28, 2022, 10:25:55 PM
"Given Steven Gerrard's current performances as manager, Aston Villa has taken the difficult decision to cut back on the redevelopment plans for Villa Park. The North stand rebuild will be postponed, however we are delighted to reveal the reworked plans for Villa Live..."
(https://i.insider.com/629f14fd7bc6a80018b6a366?width=1200&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
Post by: Rory on August 29, 2022, 01:58:36 AM
I don’t think anyone is left open mouthed in admiration by the current North stand or the Witton are they?
I'm often dumbstruck by the amount of pigeon shit smeared down the back of the North. Does that count?
Post by: Villafirst on August 29, 2022, 07:02:06 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on August 29, 2022, 08:35:44 AM
But, you’d expect them to back themselves to sort things out on the pitch and they know the support is there if they do.
Remember, it will take time with a reduced capacity to build the new one. The cap of 30k season ticket holders I’d imagine leaves them with enough capacity to rehome those from the North while it’s rebuilt. And so they have two years really to get things sorted before they need to worry about the new capacity.
Post by: maidstonevillain on August 29, 2022, 08:49:43 AM
It looks perfectly adequate.Didn’t he leave a bank of mud at one end.
But would Fred Rinder have settled for perfectly adequate?
Would have been nice to see a nod to the past and more wow factor.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on August 29, 2022, 09:58:06 PM
It looks perfectly adequate.Didn’t he leave a bank of mud at one end.
But would Fred Rinder have settled for perfectly adequate?
Would have been nice to see a nod to the past and more wow factor.
Would have been a replica of the Holte if not for WW1.
Post by: DeKuip on August 29, 2022, 10:13:13 PM
It looks perfectly adequate.Didn’t he leave a bank of mud at one end.
But would Fred Rinder have settled for perfectly adequate?
Would have been nice to see a nod to the past and more wow factor.
That bank of mud was better looking than the ugly structure that replaced it. And it had more leg room and was quicker to exit.
Post by: LeeB on August 30, 2022, 09:32:50 AM
The acoustics at VP are odd. From the LH I rarely hear the North Stand even though I can see that they are up and singing in the bottom corner. Similarly with the away fans, it’s only when the rest of the ground goes quiet that the noise arrives.
A couple of my cousins are Baggies fans and for as long I've known them would mention the "lack" of atmosphere at VP
That'll be because we don't have a man dressed up as a boiler to gee everyone up.
I loved that sponser for them, sounded more like a local mature dating agency.
Post by: LeeB on August 30, 2022, 09:37:28 AM
I don’t think anyone is left open mouthed in admiration by the current North stand or the Witton are they?
Yes! I fucking love the North Stand, it's unique in British football in it's brutalist magnificence, and if you all weren't such capitalist pigdog sheeple you'd see it too.
Post by: The Edge on August 30, 2022, 11:18:10 AM
I remember when it opened and it was as you say considered magnificent and I believe it was the first stand anywhere to use the "goalpost" design for the roof. Over time though it has become very dated and very impractical.It really does need replacing. I must admit though I attended last year's Southampton game as a guest in the North Stand Gaslamp area and I absolutely loved it. I've done corporate at Villa Park several times and a couple of times at Old Trafford when we've played them. It wasn't as lavish as either but it was easily the most enjoyable experience. It has had it's day and needs replacing now in my opinion but it will leave some happy memories. It was the backdrop for some wonderful occasions, Bosnich's heroics against Tranmere and Phil Kings winning penalty against Inter Milan to name just a couple. On a personal level the last ever visit my dear old dad made to Villa Park was a tour of the ground and he had his picture taken sat in the North Stand. I think there will be a lot of people who miss the old concrete girl more than they currently realise.I don’t think anyone is left open mouthed in admiration by the current North stand or the Witton are they?
Yes! I fucking love the North Stand, it's unique in British football in it's brutalist magnificence, and if you all weren't such capitalist pigdog sheeple you'd see it too.
Post by: London Villan on August 30, 2022, 11:26:54 AM
The double height boxes, the letters in the seats, the goalpost design - were all pretty radical (and like the construction of the original Trinity in the 20s) almost bankrupted the club.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on August 30, 2022, 11:31:15 AM
It looks perfectly adequate.Didn’t he leave a bank of mud at one end.
But would Fred Rinder have settled for perfectly adequate?
Would have been nice to see a nod to the past and more wow factor.
Would have been a replica of the Holte if not for WW1.
Lest we forget.
Post by: Flin5tone on September 04, 2022, 03:08:07 PM
Post by: luke95 on September 04, 2022, 03:23:03 PM
I love it up there & will be said to see it go.
Post by: Richard E on September 04, 2022, 03:34:48 PM
Does anybody know why the right hand steps of the Holte End have been painted grey but the left still concrete? Not sure what I think about it.....guessing the left will also get the same treatment
It’s because the right side sucks and all the cool kids go in the left side.
Post by: cdbearsfan on September 04, 2022, 03:38:12 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 04, 2022, 03:44:34 PM
The Upper North is one of the best views to watch the game, surprising how close you are to the pitchfrom the front rows of upper North. Just a shame its so cramped & outdated.
I love it up there & will be said to see it go.
The first few rows up there are as good a behind-goal view as there is anywhere. As you say, it's just a shame they're so cramped and the facilities are awful.
Post by: Ads on September 04, 2022, 03:53:55 PM
Correct. Fucking Right Siders, honestly.
Its because we're more deserving than you left side oiks.
Post by: Deano's Mullet on September 04, 2022, 03:54:33 PM
Post by: Ads on September 04, 2022, 03:57:19 PM
Post by: luke95 on September 04, 2022, 04:06:03 PM
Youd expect the New North to have some pretty good views, when you consider the height of it.Yeah but you may aswell be sat in Perry Barr when it come to proximity to the pitch.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 04, 2022, 04:15:17 PM
I love the Upper North. Best view in the ground cos you see the Holte in its glory. I took a Fulham fan in there for the home game where Kodjia scored a flying volley against them - he was in awe.
I'm guessing you'll still be able to see the Holte in the new stand.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on September 04, 2022, 04:25:19 PM
Youd expect the New North to have some pretty good views, when you consider the height of it.Yeah but you may aswell be sat in Perry Barr when it come to proximity to the pitch.
Don't agree with that at all. Part of the reason the view is superb is the proximity you feel to the pitch.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 04, 2022, 05:57:38 PM
Post by: The Edge on September 04, 2022, 06:02:45 PM
Post by: KevinGage on September 04, 2022, 06:03:46 PM
I think for the Villa Park rebuild to work it has to utilise our history. Aston Villa were the first giant of world football. Our history is our identity. In that time we were the Real Madrid of that era. The ground design needs to take that DNA of redbrick late Victorian / Edwardian Birmingham. Take inspiration from the old Trinity and other local redbrick landmarks for its outer appearance. To me the design I've seen is just a red brick wall. It's the right colour and material but that's about it. The outside of the trinity needs to be redone in that way.
It would be like going to her Maj saying we're going to rebuild Windsor castle in the style of a large Aldi. Sacrilege!
Indeed.
Shirley there's a way of incorporating this new 'Villa Live' concept directly into the stand as well. Rather than two serperate corporate looking sheds. Could be Crystal Palace or Burnley. Or a shopping mall in Dubai. Could be anywhere.
Post by: Ads on September 04, 2022, 06:07:06 PM
Post by: algy on September 04, 2022, 06:12:05 PM
Yeah, had our season ticket in the North Stand Upper for many years, row D, right in the centre - brilliant views. Then relocated to the Trinity Road stand the season that Santa parachuted in to the roof*, cos it was (a) warmer and (b) my granddad's sight was going by then so he could see what was going on a bit better from there.Youd expect the New North to have some pretty good views, when you consider the height of it.Yeah but you may aswell be sat in Perry Barr when it come to proximity to the pitch.
Don't agree with that at all. Part of the reason the view is superb is the proximity you feel to the pitch.
Anyway, North Stand. I'm very fond of it and still either sit there or the Trinity Road stand on my visits to B6.
* Remember that as if it were yesterday - just this loud thud, then that poor bloke falling down like a sack of spuds right in front of us - we were pretty much level with where he fell, so could practically see the guy's face as he went down.
Post by: luke95 on September 04, 2022, 08:28:42 PM
Youd expect the New North to have some pretty good views, when you consider the height of it.Yeah but you may aswell be sat in Perry Barr when it come to proximity to the pitch.
Don't agree with that at all. Part of the reason the view is superb is the proximity you feel to the pitch.
I meant in the new stand when its built. No doubt you be as far away from the pitch as the upper holte as it is now.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on September 04, 2022, 08:38:41 PM
I think Luke means in the new north stand.
Ah. Yes. My misunderstanding. Sorry.
Post by: Scratchins on September 05, 2022, 09:06:09 AM
Yeah, had our season ticket in the North Stand Upper for many years, row D, right in the centre - brilliant views. Then relocated to the Trinity Road stand the season that Santa parachuted in to the roof*, cos it was (a) warmer and (b) my granddad's sight was going by then so he could see what was going on a bit better from there.Youd expect the New North to have some pretty good views, when you consider the height of it.Yeah but you may aswell be sat in Perry Barr when it come to proximity to the pitch.
Don't agree with that at all. Part of the reason the view is superb is the proximity you feel to the pitch.
Anyway, North Stand. I'm very fond of it and still either sit there or the Trinity Road stand on my visits to B6.
* Remember that as if it were yesterday - just this loud thud, then that poor bloke falling down like a sack of spuds right in front of us - we were pretty much level with where he fell, so could practically see the guy's face as he went down.
I was in the front row right above the goal. I loved it until they made the block next to me corporate and we were getting away fans dressed up to the nines making gestures to us that we would have been thrown out for if we had done it to them.
I still clearly have the vision of Santa slowly descending and realising that he would hit the roof. It seemed to take ages for him to slide down and over the edge. It was disappointing that when he came back to VP for a televised match Sky didn’t mention him.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 05, 2022, 11:25:32 AM
Correct. Fucking Right Siders, honestly.Never understood how anyone could stand on the right side. The left side was SO much better. Wrong uns.
Post by: LeeB on September 05, 2022, 11:31:15 AM
Correct. Fucking Right Siders, honestly.Never understood how anyone could stand on the right side. The left side was SO much better. Wrong uns.
The left side was for kids and pavement dancers, all the 'heads' stood on the bottom right hand corner.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on September 05, 2022, 12:34:41 PM
Away with yee.Correct. Fucking Right Siders, honestly.Never understood how anyone could stand on the right side. The left side was SO much better. Wrong uns.
The left side was for kids and pavement dancers, all the 'heads' stood on the bottom right hand corner.
We had the added advantage of boredom breakers, when a random fight broke out in the park...........often more entertaining than what was on display from pitch side.
Post by: rob_bridge on September 05, 2022, 12:43:11 PM
Post by: Villa in Denmark on September 05, 2022, 01:26:44 PM
Post by: LeeB on September 05, 2022, 01:33:12 PM
I'd rather be a sausage than an egg.
I'm we had a Union Jack that just said 'eggs' on it that my mate had crafted.
Post by: atomicjam on September 05, 2022, 08:39:24 PM
https://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdDetails.aspx?PT=Planning%20Applications%20On-Line&TYPE=PL/PlanningPK.xml&PARAM0=1213272&XSLT=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/xslt/PL/PLDetails.xslt&FT=Planning%20Application%20Details&PUBLIC=Y&DAURI=PLANNING&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/Menus/PL.xml
Post by: Dogtanian on September 05, 2022, 08:58:25 PM
Post by: London Villan on September 05, 2022, 09:00:30 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on September 05, 2022, 10:00:45 PM
Post by: Ads on September 05, 2022, 10:01:52 PM
Stadium control is going in the top right (as you'd look at it from the Holte) so presumably the pavilion between Holte and the Witton is going.
The away fans get a new block too as there's redevelopment of a bit of the Witton.
She's a monster and she's a beauty. Get. Her. Built.
Post by: saunders_heroes on September 05, 2022, 10:19:04 PM
Post by: Villan82 on September 05, 2022, 10:29:09 PM
Post by: Villan For Life on September 05, 2022, 10:36:42 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 05, 2022, 10:48:33 PM
Not sure if posted already- its planning application 2022/06776/PA
https://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdDetails.aspx?PT=Planning%20Applications%20On-Line&TYPE=PL/PlanningPK.xml&PARAM0=1213272&XSLT=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/xslt/PL/PLDetails.xslt&FT=Planning%20Application%20Details&PUBLIC=Y&DAURI=PLANNING&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/Menus/PL.xml
What are you all clicking on to see images?
Post by: atomicjam on September 05, 2022, 10:52:05 PM
Not sure if posted already- its planning application 2022/06776/PA
https://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdDetails.aspx?PT=Planning%20Applications%20On-Line&TYPE=PL/PlanningPK.xml&PARAM0=1213272&XSLT=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/xslt/PL/PLDetails.xslt&FT=Planning%20Application%20Details&PUBLIC=Y&DAURI=PLANNING&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/Menus/PL.xml
What are you all clicking on to see images?
Associated Documents
http://eplanning.idox.birmingham.gov.uk/publisher/mvc/listDocuments?identifier=Planning&reference=2022/06776/PA
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 05, 2022, 10:57:45 PM
Not sure if posted already- its planning application 2022/06776/PA
https://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdDetails.aspx?PT=Planning%20Applications%20On-Line&TYPE=PL/PlanningPK.xml&PARAM0=1213272&XSLT=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/xslt/PL/PLDetails.xslt&FT=Planning%20Application%20Details&PUBLIC=Y&DAURI=PLANNING&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/Menus/PL.xml
What are you all clicking on to see images?
Associated Documents
http://eplanning.idox.birmingham.gov.uk/publisher/mvc/listDocuments?identifier=Planning&reference=2022/06776/PA
Cheers. Still quite a search. I’ve found a couple of the outside.
Post by: Ads on September 05, 2022, 10:59:50 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 05, 2022, 11:07:20 PM
Good one on page 5.
Nice one Ads. There are some other good ones on skyscrapercity.
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/villa-park-expansion.2328784/page-11
Post by: Ads on September 05, 2022, 11:26:50 PM
Post by: olaftab on September 05, 2022, 11:29:34 PM
Not sure if posted already- its planning application 2022/06776/PABrilliant. Thanks for posting atomicjam.
https://eplanning.birmingham.gov.uk/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/Generic/StdDetails.aspx?PT=Planning%20Applications%20On-Line&TYPE=PL/PlanningPK.xml&PARAM0=1213272&XSLT=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/xslt/PL/PLDetails.xslt&FT=Planning%20Application%20Details&PUBLIC=Y&DAURI=PLANNING&XMLSIDE=/Northgate/PlanningExplorer/SiteFiles/Skins/Birmingham/Menus/PL.xml
Post by: Nelly on September 05, 2022, 11:29:48 PM
Probably a little hasty with what I was saying.
(Edited to scale the image down, sorry)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 05, 2022, 11:34:14 PM
EDIT and part 2, too
Post by: olaftab on September 05, 2022, 11:41:34 PM
"Design and Access Statement Part 1" on page 2 is the document with all the good stuff.Yes good info there but current 21 home matches increasing to 23; what's that about?
Post by: Ads on September 05, 2022, 11:54:41 PM
Post by: LeeB on September 05, 2022, 11:57:24 PM
50,065 the new capacity.
Bet we end up annoyingly short of 50,000 for every official attendance.
Post by: cdbearsfan on September 06, 2022, 12:00:36 AM
Post by: cdbearsfan on September 06, 2022, 12:03:32 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 06, 2022, 12:12:46 AM
When was our last 50,000 + crowd, out of curiosity? West Ham Boxing Day when Dennis Mortimer signed? Or maybe some Man U/Liverpool/Small Heath game after that?
Man Utd, season after I think.
I think I remember the number -50,084? But strangely can’t remember if it was red or blue filth.
Post by: cdbearsfan on September 06, 2022, 12:14:32 AM
Edit: you got the number, impressive stuff Percy. We got 48,439 for the QPR League Cup SF the same season and 49,619 for Barcelona a year later.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 06, 2022, 12:15:44 AM
It's clearly not being done on the cheap - there are various bits in the design statement where they show the various options for things like cladding, brick work, other materials and the relative cost, and there's not even the slightest whiff of cheap-arseing, it's all top dollar stuff.
The brickwork and the floating roof look great.
Post by: eamonn on September 06, 2022, 12:44:17 AM
Post by: eamonn on September 06, 2022, 12:45:44 AM
"Design and Access Statement Part 1" on page 2 is the document with all the good stuff.Yes good info there but current 21 home matches increasing to 23; what's that about?
A 50,000 capacity stadium in the Championship...a bit unorthodox but probably the best chance of silverware that we have.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 06, 2022, 01:14:16 AM
Answering my own question, it seems to have been 50,084 for a 2-1 loss to Small Heath on 18th September 1976. Unless there is some friendly or other match I'm unaware of. How many were at the Rangers "friendly"?
Edit: you got the number, impressive stuff Percy. We got 48,439 for the QPR League Cup SF the same season and 49,619 for Barcelona a year later.
Cheers cd. There were only 17k at the Rangers friendly.
Post by: cdbearsfan on September 06, 2022, 01:14:52 AM
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 07:33:06 AM
50,065 the new capacity.
Bet we end up annoyingly short of 50,000 for every official attendance.
Block Q1 is going to be part of the redevelopment so I'd hope there would some proper segregation factored in that would avoid seats lost to mesh to keep the attendance at 50k.
Imagine how noisy Saturday night would have been with that monster?
Post by: four fornicholl on September 06, 2022, 08:08:06 AM
Post by: London Villan on September 06, 2022, 08:18:49 AM
Overall it looks good, but it's not unique - as was the original Trinity (or even the copy at the Holte End). It would be great to have a stand that has something that sets us apart from other grounds and can only be Villa Park. To me it looks like the new main stand at Anfield - not a bad stand, but certainly not something that can only be Villa Park.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 06, 2022, 08:46:22 AM
Cheers cd. There were only 17k at the Rangers friendly.
Was that dead or wounded?
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on September 06, 2022, 08:48:51 AM
Answering my own question, it seems to have been 50,084 for a 2-1 loss to Small Heath on 18th September 1976. Unless there is some friendly or other match I'm unaware of. How many were at the Rangers "friendly"?
Edit: you got the number, impressive stuff Percy. We got 48,439 for the QPR League Cup SF the same season and 49,619 for Barcelona a year later.
53,782 again home to Blues - 2-1 win 1975. Little with the winner after we went 1 down to Trev. Oh I see you asked when the last one was. Sorry it is early. But the atmosphere that day was incredible. You can see brief highlights on youtube.
https://www.avfchistory.co.uk/game/3391
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 06, 2022, 08:50:37 AM
Answering my own question, it seems to have been 50,084 for a 2-1 loss to Small Heath on 18th September 1976. Unless there is some friendly or other match I'm unaware of. How many were at the Rangers "friendly"?
Edit: you got the number, impressive stuff Percy. We got 48,439 for the QPR League Cup SF the same season and 49,619 for Barcelona a year later.
53,975 again home to Blues - 2-1 win 1975. Little with the winner after we went 1 down to Trev.
I think we had three over 50k that season.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 06, 2022, 08:55:09 AM
It’s going give the Holte a run for it’s money in the “Who’s loudest?”. Can’t wait.I doubt it. I think these will be premium seats, I suspect the Holte will always attract the noisiest fans.
Post by: Drummond on September 06, 2022, 08:57:14 AM
One thing I will say, it is fucking massive.
It's clearly not being done on the cheap - there are various bits in the design statement where they show the various options for things like cladding, brick work, other materials and the relative cost, and there's not even the slightest whiff of cheap-arseing, it's all top dollar stuff.
The brickwork and the floating roof look great.
I stood outside the shop on Saturday and looked at the North. Like you say when I pictured the idea for this new stand it dawned on me just how big it will be.
Post by: nigel on September 06, 2022, 09:06:08 AM
That surprises me, I'd assumed they had brought at least that many on their own.
Not doubting Percy, but that 17000 surprised me, too.
Rangers filled the Holte, so at a guess I’d say 15000
I’m sure it was said that thousands of Rangers jumped the entrances, so although it was down as 17k it was probably a lot more
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2022, 09:14:53 AM
It looked on the pictures that the witton lane would be pedestrianised , is that viable ?
It looked from the initial plans that it was going to be closed off at the North Stand end, but it's going to be a 'shared space', closed on match days:
"A section of shared surface will be introduced to Witton Lane at the junction
with Station Road responding to the glazing line of the new Villa Live building.
The introduction of a raised table will help to reduce vehicle speeds and a
signalled pelican crossing point will ensure safe pedestrian crossing on non
match day (the road is closed on match day). In addition, planting, landscaping,
street furniture and well lit spaces are designed to enhance the public safety and
security of the site. "
Post by: VILLA MOLE on September 06, 2022, 09:47:41 AM
It looked on the pictures that the witton lane would be pedestrianised , is that viable ?
It looked from the initial plans that it was going to be closed off at the North Stand end, but it's going to be a 'shared space', closed on match days:
"A section of shared surface will be introduced to Witton Lane at the junction
with Station Road responding to the glazing line of the new Villa Live building.
The introduction of a raised table will help to reduce vehicle speeds and a
signalled pelican crossing point will ensure safe pedestrian crossing on non
match day (the road is closed on match day). In addition, planting, landscaping,
street furniture and well lit spaces are designed to enhance the public safety and
security of the site. "
ahh cheers for info
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2022, 09:48:18 AM
Nice from an information security point of view to see server rooms so clearly marked up on plans.
It's a football ground, not MI6! :)
Post by: frank black on September 06, 2022, 09:51:00 AM
Looks like my seats in the Lower Trinity have evolved to General Admission Plus - and are part of the hospitality offer...
Overall it looks good, but it's not unique - as was the original Trinity (or even the copy at the Holte End). It would be great to have a stand that has something that sets us apart from other grounds and can only be Villa Park. To me it looks like the new main stand at Anfield - not a bad stand, but certainly not something that can only be Villa Park.
Certainly looks like we are about to be evicted, it would have been nice to be notified before these plans were circulated. It’ll be sanitised corporate folks only within earshot of the dugout.
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 09:51:36 AM
They may well be getting rid of the 3 or 4 boxes that are there too to create room? Eitherway, I don't like that away fans have a pretty dim view of the facilities in the away end.
Post by: LeeB on September 06, 2022, 09:55:52 AM
It looked on the pictures that the witton lane would be pedestrianised , is that viable ?
It looked from the initial plans that it was going to be closed off at the North Stand end, but it's going to be a 'shared space', closed on match days:
"A section of shared surface will be introduced to Witton Lane at the junction
with Station Road responding to the glazing line of the new Villa Live building.
The introduction of a raised table will help to reduce vehicle speeds and a
signalled pelican crossing point will ensure safe pedestrian crossing on non
match day (the road is closed on match day). In addition, planting, landscaping,
street furniture and well lit spaces are designed to enhance the public safety and
security of the site. "
I checked that first, they're going to move the entrance which is currently offset againt Station Rd so it lines up, making it more accessable to and from the station.
The whole thing is very impressive.
Post by: frank black on September 06, 2022, 09:58:24 AM
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 10:00:18 AM
No doubt they’ll offer me the chance to keep my seat for £2000 (or maybe a slight discount) for corporate perks. This isn’t what I go for, nor the experience I want. Otherwise it’s relocate to somewhere else , no doubt nowhere near my current spot. Sorry to go off on a tangent about me me,me. But I had no clue til this morning that my seat on the halfway line would be impacted by a new North Stand. It’s a shock
Why are you complaining about something you've imagined?
Post by: frank black on September 06, 2022, 10:19:44 AM
No doubt they’ll offer me the chance to keep my seat for £2000 (or maybe a slight discount) for corporate perks. This isn’t what I go for, nor the experience I want. Otherwise it’s relocate to somewhere else , no doubt nowhere near my current spot. Sorry to go off on a tangent about me me,me. But I had no clue til this morning that my seat on the halfway line would be impacted by a new North Stand. It’s a shock
Why are you complaining about something you've imagined?
Fair point, but my seat is definitely marked as hospitality
Post by: LeeB on September 06, 2022, 10:25:51 AM
Post by: frank black on September 06, 2022, 10:30:15 AM
Anyhow, my initial thoughts of the design are that the polycarbonate bit could do with some proper stained glass.
Post by: London Villan on September 06, 2022, 10:33:53 AM
Block C5 C4 "GA+" which I assume is General Admission Plus - so no doubt a premium to sit there, but with access to a bar or lounge of some description. It looks like a lot of work in the Trinity actually. Bigger 1874 lounge, reconfigured seating at the North end of the ground, moving the press box...
It all makes sense, just would have been nice to be informed. I know it's happened before but I'd guess the fans in those blocks are pretty longstanding season ticket holders as the face don't change much year to year.
(https://i.ibb.co/qkFY14Z/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qkFY14Z)
Post by: chrisw1 on September 06, 2022, 10:40:10 AM
I think it's a fantastic proposal for the new North Stand and it's hard to see how it could be any bigger. But a max final destination of 53k does feel a liitle bit light to me, but I guess that can only change significantly if more space can be created in Witton Lane and / or Trinity road can be shifted a little to allow bulding the holte out on the corner - both of which feel unlikely in the medium term.
Post by: Chris Smith on September 06, 2022, 10:52:10 AM
Image here...
Block C5 C4 "GA+" which I assume is General Admission Plus - so no doubt a premium to sit there, but with access to a bar or lounge of some description. It looks like a lot of work in the Trinity actually. Bigger 1874 lounge, reconfigured seating at the North end of the ground, moving the press box...
It all makes sense, just would have been nice to be informed. I know it's happened before but I'd guess the fans in those blocks are pretty longstanding season ticket holders as the face don't change much year to year.
(https://i.ibb.co/qkFY14Z/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qkFY14Z)
I notice on that plan there will be Optimised Vomitiries in the Trinity which will be handy for when we are sick of the manager.
Post by: London Villan on September 06, 2022, 10:53:46 AM
Post by: Concrete Tom on September 06, 2022, 10:54:59 AM
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 06, 2022, 10:58:32 AM
Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
That annoyed me too, but having trawled through a decent quantity of the documentation, it is at times referred to by the correct name too.
By which I mean, it's probably shoddiness rather than by design.
Post by: Ger Regan on September 06, 2022, 11:03:19 AM
Looks like my seats in the Lower Trinity have evolved to General Admission Plus - and are part of the hospitality offer...I can't think of many grounds with two such imposing stands at either end. I absolutely love the Holte, still gives me goosebumps when looking at it, the North Stand has the potential to be even better.
Overall it looks good, but it's not unique - as was the original Trinity (or even the copy at the Holte End). It would be great to have a stand that has something that sets us apart from other grounds and can only be Villa Park. To me it looks like the new main stand at Anfield - not a bad stand, but certainly not something that can only be Villa Park.
Post by: Ger Regan on September 06, 2022, 11:04:21 AM
Yep, there are a number of drawings that label it as the Trinity Road Stand.Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
That annoyed me too, but having trawled through a decent quantity of the documentation, it is at times referred to by the correct name too.
By which I mean, it's probably shoddiness rather than by design.
Post by: olaftab on September 06, 2022, 11:13:44 AM
I'm glad the away fans are getting some new space too with redevelopment of Q1 and the new large entrance. One of thr plans shows an abutment onto the Witton Lane for access to the upper tier, so presumably there will be more space.Yes agreed. Despite rivalries we should make away fans facilities experience as pleasant as possible.
They may well be getting rid of the 3 or 4 boxes that are there too to create room? Eitherway, I don't like that away fans have a pretty dim view of the facilities in the away end.
Post by: olaftab on September 06, 2022, 11:15:00 AM
Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?I like it and I also think North stand should be names after me as I have now been sitting there for 10 years.
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 11:23:12 AM
I note it says Phase 2 will involve configuration of the stands, including Doug Ellis & Holte End to increase the overall capacity up to 52,000 - 53,000.
I think it's a fantastic proposal for the new North Stand and it's hard to see how it could be any bigger. But a max final destination of 53k does feel a liitle bit light to me, but I guess that can only change significantly if more space can be created in Witton Lane and / or Trinity road can be shifted a little to allow bulding the holte out on the corner - both of which feel unlikely in the medium term.
Where have you seen the docs Chris for Phase II?
Post by: Drummond on September 06, 2022, 11:35:04 AM
Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?I like it and I also think North stand should be names after me as I have now been sitting there for 10 years.
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
Nah, it should be named after the people who have had to look at the thing for 10 years.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 06, 2022, 12:31:26 PM
There weren't any detailed documents, it was just referred to briefly a couple of times in the design and access atatements.I note it says Phase 2 will involve configuration of the stands, including Doug Ellis & Holte End to increase the overall capacity up to 52,000 - 53,000.
I think it's a fantastic proposal for the new North Stand and it's hard to see how it could be any bigger. But a max final destination of 53k does feel a liitle bit light to me, but I guess that can only change significantly if more space can be created in Witton Lane and / or Trinity road can be shifted a little to allow bulding the holte out on the corner - both of which feel unlikely in the medium term.
Where have you seen the docs Chris for Phase II?
eg, see page 10 on this document - it refers very briefly to phase 2 on the bottom right of the page under heading 'Future Phases'
http://eplanning.idox.birmingham.gov.uk/publisher/docs/769C0AEB1FD73E536613D9CB4D4A4B35/Document-769C0AEB1FD73E536613D9CB4D4A4B35.pdf
Also see p13
Post by: LeeB on September 06, 2022, 12:36:50 PM
Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?I like it and I also think North stand should be names after me as I have now been sitting there for 10 years.
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
I didn't realise you were in there too. Call it the Castle Bromwich Has All The Best Villa Fans Stand and be done with it.
Post by: eamonn on September 06, 2022, 02:01:27 PM
Cheers cd. There were only 17k at the Rangers friendly.
Was that dead or wounded?
Only last night I found myself lost
By the station called King's Cross
Post by: eamonn on September 06, 2022, 02:02:15 PM
Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?I like it and I also think North stand should be names after me as I have now been sitting there for 10 years.
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
Trinity North is a great name. I knew aftab must have been a fiction.
Post by: FatSam on September 06, 2022, 02:11:31 PM
Overall it looks good, but it's not unique - as was the original Trinity (or even the copy at the Holte End). It would be great to have a stand that has something that sets us apart from other grounds and can only be Villa Park. To me it looks like the new main stand at Anfield - not a bad stand, but certainly not something that can only be Villa Park.That’s my opinion as well. It all looks well considered, and to a good quality, but the architecture is a bit bland and corporate. If it didn’t say ‘Aston Villa’ on it, I wouldn’t be able to pick it out from a crowd of other stands, like the Anfield main stand for example.
Post by: FatSam on September 06, 2022, 02:23:20 PM
Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?The thing I don’t like is the new stand being called the North Stand. I think it should be the Witton End, or the Witton End Stand. As far as I know the North Stand has only ever been used for the structure that is to be demolished. It has always felt like a horribly prosaic 1970s naming convention to me. Now seems like a good opportunity to reconnect with the history of the place. It also has more balance and symmetry, being opposite the Holte End.
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
Post by: FatSam on September 06, 2022, 02:32:17 PM
Post by: London Villan on September 06, 2022, 02:34:35 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on September 06, 2022, 02:43:43 PM
Several posters have commented on how big the stand is, and it’s obviously a big stand in comparison to the rest of the ground, but I’m still disappointed that it isn’t a bit bigger. One of the design parameters is not to exceed the height of the Trinity Road Stand. This seems a bit arbitrary, but is probably a sensible planning strategy, to be pragmatic about what you can get consent for. I would have liked to see the capacity of the stand really pushed, so that the overall ground capacity was more like 53k. I think that would put us in a better position for the overall capacity to challenge the likes of Arsenal, West Ham, Liverpool and Spurs following later phases of development.I think to do that they would have had to fully fill the trinity corner and I think too many people were too precious about the aesthetic of that for the club to run with that option. But if you look at the design documents it was somehting that was considered.
Post by: FatSam on September 06, 2022, 02:45:49 PM
It's also probably at the limit of the optimum viewing distance from the pitch too. Any further back and you'd be watching subbuteo. I think it's one of the reasons the upper tier doesn't connect. It would just be so far away from the opposite corner of the pitch.I’m sure you’re right that it’s at the limit of the optimum viewing distance, but Wembley for example obviously has seats that are further away from the action.
Post by: London Villan on September 06, 2022, 02:50:54 PM
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2022, 03:12:47 PM
It's also probably at the limit of the optimum viewing distance from the pitch too. Any further back and you'd be watching subbuteo. I think it's one of the reasons the upper tier doesn't connect. It would just be so far away from the opposite corner of the pitch.I’m sure you’re right that it’s at the limit of the optimum viewing distance, but Wembley for example obviously has seats that are further away from the action.
Isn't there a
Post by: paul_e on September 06, 2022, 03:14:27 PM
It's also probably at the limit of the optimum viewing distance from the pitch too. Any further back and you'd be watching subbuteo. I think it's one of the reasons the upper tier doesn't connect. It would just be so far away from the opposite corner of the pitch.I’m sure you’re right that it’s at the limit of the optimum viewing distance, but Wembley for example obviously has seats that are further away from the action.
Isn't there a minimum allowable distance from the pitch? It's why some stands are so much steeper than others.
Maximum surely?
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2022, 03:18:54 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 06, 2022, 03:24:44 PM
It's also probably at the limit of the optimum viewing distance from the pitch too. Any further back and you'd be watching subbuteo. I think it's one of the reasons the upper tier doesn't connect. It would just be so far away from the opposite corner of the pitch.I’m sure you’re right that it’s at the limit of the optimum viewing distance, but Wembley for example obviously has seats that are further away from the action.
One of the factors - it's in one of the docs on that link somewhere, they have to do right-to-daylight impact studies on any residential or commercial property that will be impacted by the size of the new stand.
The houses on Nelson Road are the main ones, they'd be impacted by anything much taller, I'd imagine.
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2022, 03:51:07 PM
Post by: olaftab on September 06, 2022, 05:05:48 PM
If I lived down Witton Lane, I'd be getting a local group together, to tell the club "just buy our houses for double their price"! Imagine what we could do if the road and houses weren't there.I have a friend who lives there and he said most of the residents are hoping Villa would buy them out at a reasonable premium above market price.
Post by: olaftab on September 06, 2022, 05:07:22 PM
Let truth be displayed in neon lights at Villa park.Anyone know why the club has suddenly started to refer to the Trinity Road Stand as just simply the Trinity Stand?I like it and I also think North stand should be names after me as I have now been sitting there for 10 years.
I thought it might have been a Purslowism but it’s present throughout the planning documents.
Really don’t like it.
I didn't realise you were in there too. Call it the Castle Bromwich Has All The Best Villa Fans Stand and be done with it.
Post by: olaftab on September 06, 2022, 05:12:39 PM
Trinity North is a great name. I knew aftab must have been a fiction.I do have 3 season tickets so appropriate and no one is holier than I ;D
Post by: chrisw1 on September 06, 2022, 05:15:49 PM
The club is probably treading on eggshells a bit here, particularly given what happened at Liverpool. They'll also be keen to avoid any isolated 'ransom' plots. If there really is a weight of people who would be interested then Risso's idea is probably a very good one.If I lived down Witton Lane, I'd be getting a local group together, to tell the club "just buy our houses for double their price"! Imagine what we could do if the road and houses weren't there.I have a friend who lives there and he said most of the residents are hoping Villa would buy them out at a reasonable premium above market price.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 06, 2022, 06:11:08 PM
The club is probably treading on eggshells a bit here, particularly given what happened at Liverpool. They'll also be keen to avoid any isolated 'ransom' plots. If there really is a weight of people who would be interested then Risso's idea is probably a very good one.If I lived down Witton Lane, I'd be getting a local group together, to tell the club "just buy our houses for double their price"! Imagine what we could do if the road and houses weren't there.I have a friend who lives there and he said most of the residents are hoping Villa would buy them out at a reasonable premium above market price.
Yes, looking at the birds eye view elevations, the Holte & Witton Lane stands look tiny compared to the other two. A continuation of the new North stand along Witton Lane would massively increase capacity. Transport problems would still need to be solved though, even more so.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 06, 2022, 06:11:14 PM
Trinity North is a great name. I knew aftab must have been a fiction.
I do have 3 season tickets so appropriate and no one is holier than I ;D
It's also the name of your favourite stripper. :D
Post by: VILLA MOLE on September 06, 2022, 06:28:37 PM
If I lived down Witton Lane, I'd be getting a local group together, to tell the club "just buy our houses for double their price"! Imagine what we could do if the road and houses weren't there.I have a friend who lives there and he said most of the residents are hoping Villa would buy them out at a reasonable premium above market price.
Looking at google maps it looks like they have good sized gardens , so if we did buy them you would have s reasonable space to build on
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 06, 2022, 06:37:49 PM
Post by: hipkiss92 on September 06, 2022, 07:23:48 PM
The club has committed to 3 years of funding for bus shuttle service between Aston Park and the city centre, amongst other parking and public realm improvements, including the changes to Witton Lane and improved pedestrian access to Witton Lane. Witton Road is also to be closed post-match. AV1 to Tamworth is also to be funded for all evening and cup games.
The club is also looking at agreeing a park and ride from the city centre, with bus shuttle service provided, with all revenue retained by BCC, as well as other AV2, AV3 bus services.
No commitments on improving Aston Station pedestrian management, but there will further fan consultations. The transport surveys showed Aston Station generally clear of queuing by 5.30 at the matches the surveys were undertaken.
The number of 'normal' ticket allocations will increase by around 4,400 (home and away), with maximum away allocation (presumably for cup games) at 7,500 (currently 6,390). Hospitality capacity is increasing from 1,800 to 4,850.
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 08:45:21 PM
Post by: eamonn on September 06, 2022, 08:49:49 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 06, 2022, 08:52:02 PM
Does anyone know what arrangements were made re: the houses that were demolished along Witton Lane where the linear garden now is?
I would guess they were bought up whenever they became available. They were pretty much derelict by then.
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 09:16:14 PM
When was the last time...us in the Intertoto while the Trinity was being rebuilt?
Yeah we played Celta Vigo I think. Was sat in the Brummie Road.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on September 06, 2022, 09:44:28 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on September 06, 2022, 09:46:38 PM
The game with the loopy ref. Who must have been drunk or high.
I know I was. Though I wasn't at the game, and can't remember when it was.
Post by: DeKuip on September 06, 2022, 09:49:14 PM
Post by: FatSam on September 06, 2022, 09:53:45 PM
Again, this is clearly a consideration, but I would have thought that some additional height/ mass towards the middle at the rear would have been manageable. Having not looked at the daylight/ sunlight report, I don’t know how impactful the development is on neighbouring properties, and whether this would be the case, but a certain level of daylight/ sunlight injury to neighbouring properties is acceptable when weighed against other factors.It's also probably at the limit of the optimum viewing distance from the pitch too. Any further back and you'd be watching subbuteo. I think it's one of the reasons the upper tier doesn't connect. It would just be so far away from the opposite corner of the pitch.I’m sure you’re right that it’s at the limit of the optimum viewing distance, but Wembley for example obviously has seats that are further away from the action.
One of the factors - it's in one of the docs on that link somewhere, they have to do right-to-daylight impact studies on any residential or commercial property that will be impacted by the size of the new stand.
The houses on Nelson Road are the main ones, they'd be impacted by anything much taller, I'd imagine.
Post by: eamonn on September 06, 2022, 09:56:21 PM
The game with the loopy ref. Who must have been drunk or high.
I know I was. Though I wasn't at the game, and can't remember when it was.
Where woz ya?
Post by: FatSam on September 06, 2022, 09:57:58 PM
Some interesting bits in the Transport Assessment from someone who works on such things for a living.Thanks for summarising. Interesting to understand what is being negotiated between the club and BCC.
The club has committed to 3 years of funding for bus shuttle service between Aston Park and the city centre, amongst other parking and public realm improvements, including the changes to Witton Lane and improved pedestrian access to Witton Lane. Witton Road is also to be closed post-match. AV1 to Tamworth is also to be funded for all evening and cup games.
The club is also looking at agreeing a park and ride from the city centre, with bus shuttle service provided, with all revenue retained by BCC, as well as other AV2, AV3 bus services.
No commitments on improving Aston Station pedestrian management, but there will further fan consultations. The transport surveys showed Aston Station generally clear of queuing by 5.30 at the matches the surveys were undertaken.
The number of 'normal' ticket allocations will increase by around 4,400 (home and away), with maximum away allocation (presumably for cup games) at 7,500 (currently 6,390). Hospitality capacity is increasing from 1,800 to 4,850.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on September 06, 2022, 10:14:23 PM
The game with the loopy ref. Who must have been drunk or high.
I know I was. Though I wasn't at the game, and can't remember when it was.
Where woz ya?
Back where the car was parked. Where the canine in the a-line stole your time.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 06, 2022, 10:27:51 PM
I appreciate this is about revenue, but that feels a bit disappointing to me.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on September 06, 2022, 10:30:04 PM
Post by: Ads on September 06, 2022, 10:38:46 PM
The Trinity gets a lot of stick, but it's far more impressive in my opinion from inside the ground than what it replaced, outside there's other arguments to be had.
But looking at the slip, you really get a sense that it's the Witton Lane that's the true shambles of a stand. Such a mangled mess on that corner.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on September 06, 2022, 10:45:42 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on September 06, 2022, 10:52:02 PM
Post by: paul_e on September 06, 2022, 11:07:27 PM
I wonder if its such a bad thing that the WL is a clear monument to, and warning about, doing things on the cheap, and then having to redo them 20 years later.
I've said this before, with hindsight the stand is a perfect monument to his legacy.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 07, 2022, 08:42:23 AM
If we'd been forward thinking we'd have started picking up the hosues behind as and when they came on the market. Not in a underhand Liverpool type way, but by setting up a property company and letting them out on assured shorthold tenancies until such a time as we want to redevelop. I'd guess each house wouldn't have been much more than one weeks wages for some of our players.
Post by: DB on September 07, 2022, 10:27:45 AM
I wonder if its such a bad thing that the WL is a clear monument to, and warning about, doing things on the cheap, and then having to redo them 20 years later.
I've said this before, with hindsight the stand is a perfect monument to his legacy.
It is a shit stand but other clubs are rebuilding rebuilding after similar time e.g. Anfield behind their goal. Demand has gone up in last few years.
But I agree,done on the cheap and needs upgrading.
Post by: LeeB on September 07, 2022, 10:42:20 AM
Post by: London Villan on September 07, 2022, 10:47:58 AM
It was only when the asbestos in the lower tier was found they had to rip it out completely and reprofile the whole stand.
(https://i.ibb.co/pRp1nVH/Witton.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRp1nVH)
Post by: eamonn on September 07, 2022, 10:53:39 AM
Post by: London Villan on September 07, 2022, 11:00:14 AM
Post by: Ads on September 07, 2022, 11:01:05 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on September 07, 2022, 11:09:01 AM
Post by: London Villan on September 07, 2022, 11:29:06 AM
Post by: Ads on September 07, 2022, 12:12:29 PM
Post by: LeeB on September 07, 2022, 12:20:22 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/wSFDryt/rangers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wSFDryt)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 07, 2022, 01:43:24 PM
I have only been in the current WL stand two or three times (used to go in the old stand as a kid) and I could not believe how grim and cramped they were.
Post by: rob_bridge on September 07, 2022, 01:44:18 PM
Thinking about Phase II, opening up my Leicester tickets, it's come with a slip that has a shot of the Witton and Holte.
The Trinity gets a lot of stick, but it's far more impressive in my opinion from inside the ground than what it replaced, outside there's other arguments to be had.
But looking at the slip, you really get a sense that it's the Witton Lane that's the true shambles of a stand. Such a mangled mess on that corner.
Totally agree. Trinity match experience is great - always take my 'guests' there. Every single one has been impressed with it and hence the whole ground as a result.
Witton Lane stand was out of date 20 years ago. Great view from upper tier but one you want to get in to with 5 mins to go before the match. Shite facilities and no room. Replacement needs to follow asap the North Stand is done
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 07, 2022, 01:45:50 PM
I hate them, but this is how you modernise a piece of architectural genius
It's been discussed at length here and pretty sure Dave W mentioned that a similar approach wasn't possible with the old Trinity.
Post by: paul_e on September 07, 2022, 01:56:32 PM
Thinking about Phase II, opening up my Leicester tickets, it's come with a slip that has a shot of the Witton and Holte.
The Trinity gets a lot of stick, but it's far more impressive in my opinion from inside the ground than what it replaced, outside there's other arguments to be had.
But looking at the slip, you really get a sense that it's the Witton Lane that's the true shambles of a stand. Such a mangled mess on that corner.
Totally agree. Trinity match experience is great - always take my 'guests' there. Every single one has been impressed with it and hence the whole ground as a result.
Witton Lane stand was out of date 20 years ago. Great view from upper tier but one you want to get in to with 5 mins to go before the match. Shite facilities and no room. Replacement needs to follow asap the North Stand is done
Yep, pretty much agree. There are some problems with the Trinity but to give some credit it's the 1 of the 3 stands where they made some effort to provide the facilities you'd expect in a modern stadium.
Post by: AV82EC on September 07, 2022, 02:01:02 PM
Post by: Risso on September 07, 2022, 02:03:44 PM
Post by: Billy Walker on September 07, 2022, 02:10:12 PM
Post by: Drummond on September 07, 2022, 02:10:31 PM
The hospitality in The Trinity is by a very wide margin, the best in the Premier League. When I take clients they're always extremely impressed.
And that's where the money is.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 07, 2022, 02:24:09 PM
The hospitality in The Trinity is by a very wide margin, the best in the Premier League. When I take clients they're always extremely impressed.
What is so good about it, out of interest?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on September 07, 2022, 02:53:56 PM
Looking at the plans and the materials being considered for the new North Stand, I must say I like the look of the narrow, "slit" style windows and wonder if there's any way, for the sake of uniformity, that such windows could be installed on the Trinity Road at a future date? Likewise the use of corten steel for doors etc. These would be relatively quick ways of giving the Trinity a facelift and adding bit of style and presence. As a final flourish, a bit of coloured or stained glass in the new North Stand and Trinity would tie it all up nicely with the Holte. Thinking very long term, we could run a competition to get local schools throughout Birmingham and the Midlands to design potential mosaics that could be used as signage on all the stands.
I always think they could do something with the sheets of metal on the outside of the Trinity even if it was just pictures of Villa legends . The metal Fascias look awful
Post by: LeeB on September 07, 2022, 02:56:48 PM
The hospitality in The Trinity is by a very wide margin, the best in the Premier League. When I take clients they're always extremely impressed.
What is so good about it, out of interest?
I can only speak for myself but it's endless booze and food. Took the edge off the shite football for sure.
Post by: Risso on September 07, 2022, 03:01:52 PM
The hospitality in The Trinity is by a very wide margin, the best in the Premier League. When I take clients they're always extremely impressed.
What is so good about it, out of interest?
They just do it really well. A really nice vibe in all of the areas, and the service and quality of the food is amazing. And as Lee says says, as much drink as you can reasonably get down your neck. And we charge less for this than the likes of Arsenal and Spurs do for the opportunity just to buy a beer in a slightly nicer bar.
Post by: Axl Rose on September 07, 2022, 03:05:32 PM
The hospitality in The Trinity is by a very wide margin, the best in the Premier League. When I take clients they're always extremely impressed.
What is so good about it, out of interest?
I can only speak for myself but it's endless booze and food. Took the edge off the shite football for sure.
This. With bells on. Have only been in there a couple of times, but both myself and the people I brought (almost all non Villa) were massively impressed and complimentary about the food, drink, views, service and atmosphere.
Post by: Billy Walker on September 07, 2022, 03:11:35 PM
Looking at the plans and the materials being considered for the new North Stand, I must say I like the look of the narrow, "slit" style windows and wonder if there's any way, for the sake of uniformity, that such windows could be installed on the Trinity Road at a future date? Likewise the use of corten steel for doors etc. These would be relatively quick ways of giving the Trinity a facelift and adding bit of style and presence. As a final flourish, a bit of coloured or stained glass in the new North Stand and Trinity would tie it all up nicely with the Holte. Thinking very long term, we could run a competition to get local schools throughout Birmingham and the Midlands to design potential mosaics that could be used as signage on all the stands.
I always think they could do something with the sheets of metal on the outside of the Trinity even if it was just pictures of Villa legends . The metal Fascias look awful
Yep, I agree, binning those metal fascias alone would make a huge difference.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on September 07, 2022, 03:46:20 PM
Looking at the plans and the materials being considered for the new North Stand, I must say I like the look of the narrow, "slit" style windows and wonder if there's any way, for the sake of uniformity, that such windows could be installed on the Trinity Road at a future date? Likewise the use of corten steel for doors etc. These would be relatively quick ways of giving the Trinity a facelift and adding bit of style and presence. As a final flourish, a bit of coloured or stained glass in the new North Stand and Trinity would tie it all up nicely with the Holte. Thinking very long term, we could run a competition to get local schools throughout Birmingham and the Midlands to design potential mosaics that could be used as signage on all the stands.
I always think they could do something with the sheets of metal on the outside of the Trinity even if it was just pictures of Villa legends . The metal Fascias look awful
Yep, I agree, binning those metal fascias alone would make a huge difference.
I do wonder why they went with them
in the first place ?
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 07, 2022, 03:57:41 PM
Looking at the plans and the materials being considered for the new North Stand, I must say I like the look of the narrow, "slit" style windows and wonder if there's any way, for the sake of uniformity, that such windows could be installed on the Trinity Road at a future date? Likewise the use of corten steel for doors etc. These would be relatively quick ways of giving the Trinity a facelift and adding bit of style and presence. As a final flourish, a bit of coloured or stained glass in the new North Stand and Trinity would tie it all up nicely with the Holte. Thinking very long term, we could run a competition to get local schools throughout Birmingham and the Midlands to design potential mosaics that could be used as signage on all the stands.
I always think they could do something with the sheets of metal on the outside of the Trinity even if it was just pictures of Villa legends . The metal Fascias look awful
Yep, I agree, binning those metal fascias alone would make a huge difference.
I do wonder why they went with them
in the first place ?
You wonder why Aston Villa, chairman Doug Ellis, went for the cheap option?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on September 07, 2022, 04:01:35 PM
Looking at the plans and the materials being considered for the new North Stand, I must say I like the look of the narrow, "slit" style windows and wonder if there's any way, for the sake of uniformity, that such windows could be installed on the Trinity Road at a future date? Likewise the use of corten steel for doors etc. These would be relatively quick ways of giving the Trinity a facelift and adding bit of style and presence. As a final flourish, a bit of coloured or stained glass in the new North Stand and Trinity would tie it all up nicely with the Holte. Thinking very long term, we could run a competition to get local schools throughout Birmingham and the Midlands to design potential mosaics that could be used as signage on all the stands.
I always think they could do something with the sheets of metal on the outside of the Trinity even if it was just pictures of Villa legends . The metal Fascias look awful
Yep, I agree, binning those metal fascias alone would make a huge difference.
I do wonder why they went with them
in the first place ?
You wonder why Aston Villa, chairman Doug Ellis, went for the cheap option?
it really annoys me when i walk past . Some clubs have pictures/ murals up , i can’t imagine that would cost more
Post by: Billy Walker on September 07, 2022, 04:34:14 PM
Post by: Villan82 on September 07, 2022, 04:41:25 PM
Post by: The Edge on September 07, 2022, 05:34:40 PM
Post by: TheMalandro on September 07, 2022, 07:18:40 PM
I was addicted to that when I lived abroad.
Post by: Bad English on September 07, 2022, 08:58:23 PM
Post by: TheMalandro on September 07, 2022, 09:14:32 PM
I was really impressed with the Trinity hospitality. The range of booze champagne, gin lists, good beer (not like what you don't get served in time on the concourse..) on offer was cracking and the food, which I was expecting to be bog standard British industrial pub fare (no disrespect to my kind host) was really good (I'm talking French people not getting sniffy about it good). And you get to rub shoulders with Sir Brian, Orange Boy, etc and see Tyrone stride past you after the game.
You must know a good chap BE!
Post by: PeterWithesShin on September 07, 2022, 09:16:01 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-62817522
Post by: algy on September 07, 2022, 10:17:14 PM
I hate them, but this is how you modernise a piece of architectural geniusI agree totally. Not a huge fan of the team that plays there, but Ibrox is a stunning stadium from the outside.
(https://i.ibb.co/wSFDryt/rangers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wSFDryt)
Post by: IFWaters on September 08, 2022, 04:58:23 AM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on September 08, 2022, 07:25:05 AM
You probably all knew that, but it is a beautiful stadium.
Shame about Rangers being horrible.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 08, 2022, 08:57:42 AM
The one stand is incredibly beautiful. The rest look more like a cross between a 70's office building and a multi storey car park.I hate them, but this is how you modernise a piece of architectural geniusI agree totally. Not a huge fan of the team that plays there, but Ibrox is a stunning stadium from the outside.
(https://i.ibb.co/wSFDryt/rangers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wSFDryt)
Post by: Dazvillain on September 08, 2022, 10:03:10 AM
Surely having ploughed all the cash into BMH, that’s not a consideration in the next 10 years or so ?
Post by: WarszaVillan on September 08, 2022, 10:20:21 AM
The one stand is incredibly beautiful. The rest look more like a cross between a 70's office building and a multi storey car park.I hate them, but this is how you modernise a piece of architectural geniusI agree totally. Not a huge fan of the team that plays there, but Ibrox is a stunning stadium from the outside.
(https://i.ibb.co/wSFDryt/rangers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wSFDryt)
When I was staying in Glasgow this summer I went to look at Ibrox. It's striking how similar it is to Villa Park in style and also how their rampant lion emblem and motto (Ready) are similar to Villa's.
Post by: Billy Walker on September 08, 2022, 10:40:38 AM
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on September 08, 2022, 10:44:39 AM
I was really impressed with the Trinity hospitality. The range of booze champagne, gin lists, good beer (not like what you don't get served in time on the concourse..) on offer was cracking and the food, which I was expecting to be bog standard British industrial pub fare (no disrespect to my kind host) was really good (I'm talking French people not getting sniffy about it good).
French people not getting sniffy about it? You all* shop at
* Obviously not you, Big Fella.;)
Post by: Bad English on September 08, 2022, 11:37:35 AM
Post by: paul_e on September 08, 2022, 01:10:52 PM
All looks very impressive. Not sure if been mentioned but I was surprised to see that on 1 labelled pictorial image, there was a site noted as future training ground !
Surely having ploughed all the cash into BMH, that’s not a consideration in the next 10 years or so ?
I assume you mean the area over the river from the station, if so I think that's going t0 be a new academy centre to replace the setup that's currently in what used to be stumps, that's being taken down to be replaced with villa live and the new car parking.
Post by: Dazvillain on September 08, 2022, 01:56:48 PM
All looks very impressive. Not sure if been mentioned but I was surprised to see that on 1 labelled pictorial image, there was a site noted as future training ground !
Surely having ploughed all the cash into BMH, that’s not a consideration in the next 10 years or so ?
I assume you mean the area over the river from the station, if so I think that's going t0 be a new academy centre to replace the setup that's currently in what used to be stumps, that's being taken down to be replaced with villa live and the new car parking.
I see what you mean and yes I’ve seen that labelled as brookvale acadamy…..the training ground was the other side, possibly a bit further away
Post by: eamonn on September 08, 2022, 03:02:47 PM
"Design and Access Statement Part 1" on page 2 is the document with all the good stuff.
EDIT and part 2, too
Just looking at this now. Not the bestest of starts....the old transpositional error...
Quote
Founded in 1847, Aston Villa Football Club (AVFC) have been at their current
ground at Villa Park since 1897...
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 08, 2022, 04:36:01 PM
All looks very impressive. Not sure if been mentioned but I was surprised to see that on 1 labelled pictorial image, there was a site noted as future training ground !
Surely having ploughed all the cash into BMH, that’s not a consideration in the next 10 years or so ?
I assume you mean the area over the river from the station, if so I think that's going t0 be a new academy centre to replace the setup that's currently in what used to be stumps, that's being taken down to be replaced with villa live and the new car parking.
I see what you mean and yes I’ve seen that labelled as brookvale acadamy…..the training ground was the other side, possibly a bit further away
It’s the same thing, there is an outdoor and an indoor pitch. It’s an inner-city academy so we don’t miss out on local talent who haven’t got the means to travel to Bodymoor, which is not well-served by public transport.
Post by: Border villan on September 08, 2022, 07:34:09 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on September 08, 2022, 07:38:12 PM
Given Charles III will not be around for too long should the redeveloped plans be updated to include a Royal Box for Williams visits to home matches.Depending on his wife letting him going down the match every week or going for a walk around the park with the children,he have to put his foot down
Post by: brontebilly on September 08, 2022, 07:42:08 PM
Given Charles III will not be around for too long should the redeveloped plans be updated to include a Royal Box for Williams visits to home matches.
Definitely, Wills, John Carew, Yorkie and all the boys
Post by: Villa in Denmark on September 21, 2022, 05:10:22 PM
Link (https://woobox.com/u5eiwi)
Post by: cdbearsfan on September 22, 2022, 08:12:30 AM
Given Charles III will not be around for too long should the redeveloped plans be updated to include a Royal Box for Williams visits to home matches.
No, but I'd be happy to find room for a guillotine.
Post by: ChicagoLion on September 22, 2022, 08:31:21 AM
You know treason is still a hanging offence?Given Charles III will not be around for too long should the redeveloped plans be updated to include a Royal Box for Williams visits to home matches.
No, but I'd be happy to find room for a guillotine.
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 22, 2022, 08:31:49 AM
You know treason is still a hanging offence?Given Charles III will not be around for too long should the redeveloped plans be updated to include a Royal Box for Williams visits to home matches.
No, but I'd be happy to find room for a guillotine.
It isn't. .
Post by: LukeJames on September 22, 2022, 09:39:42 AM
Post by: LeeB on September 22, 2022, 10:25:16 AM
We should incorporate one anyway, just incase anybody's having a bad game.
If the judgement was taken from the match threads on here, we could do our bit for the environment by significantly reduced the world's population.
Post by: ChicagoLion on September 22, 2022, 02:53:03 PM
I am sure we they can make an exception.You know treason is still a hanging offence?Given Charles III will not be around for too long should the redeveloped plans be updated to include a Royal Box for Williams visits to home matches.
No, but I'd be happy to find room for a guillotine.
It isn't. .
Post by: Gaztonniller on September 22, 2022, 11:21:13 PM
If the club and City want to attract and host major sporting events then good sized stadia is vital.
Get it sorted
Post by: maidstonevillain on September 22, 2022, 11:37:21 PM
Chance for supporters to show their support for the redevelopment by signing this open letter.
Link (https://woobox.com/u5eiwi)
Agree with the sentiment. But I am loath to sign a document with so many missing apostrophes and misplaced commas. Sorry, usurping Bad English's province.
Post by: PaulTheVillan on October 02, 2022, 01:34:16 PM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 02, 2022, 02:05:26 PM
Birmingham should also be on this merry go round of stadium gigs and villa park is the only logical location. Beers before at villa live then a north stand that enhances a stadium concert could bring in a fair chunk of money for the club.
Post by: eamonn on October 02, 2022, 02:16:28 PM
Post by: London Villan on October 02, 2022, 02:17:36 PM
Post by: Nev on October 02, 2022, 02:30:18 PM
I do wonder why the alexander stadium isnt used for these gigs.
I mooted this post Commonwealth Games. It's more suitable than our place and there is proven model for getting people to and from the stadium via the shuttle bus. I was near there on Friday and noticed that a lot of the infrastructure is still in place but they looked like they were removing the hardcore from the area where the shuttle buses were dropping off.
Post by: Chris Smith on October 02, 2022, 02:55:35 PM
Re the Arctic Monkeys stadium tour next summer, Birmingham is conspicuous by its absence. Coventry seems to be the midland offering. Imagine Manchester being overlooked for Leeds though, it just wouldn't happen.
Won’t they be rebuilding the North Stand next summer?
Post by: dave.woodhall on October 02, 2022, 03:05:37 PM
The Villa Live idea intrigues me. I live in London and off the top of my head there’s been big gigs at spurs stadium and artic monkeys next year at Arsenal.
Birmingham should also be on this merry go round of stadium gigs and villa park is the only logical location. Beers before at villa live then a north stand that enhances a stadium concert could bring in a fair chunk of money for the club.
It's never really been a stadium venue in the same way that somewhere like the Ricoh was built as a multi-purpose arena. I also get the impression that gigs are often more trouble than they're worth.
Post by: eamonn on October 02, 2022, 03:12:38 PM
Re the Arctic Monkeys stadium tour next summer, Birmingham is conspicuous by its absence. Coventry seems to be the midland offering. Imagine Manchester being overlooked for Leeds though, it just wouldn't happen.
Won’t they be rebuilding the North Stand next summer?
I just mean Brum being overlooked generally which seems to happen a lot as we know. If an international act is on tour in the UK, London and Manchester tend to get first dibs (south and north "fashionable places") while Birmingham, being in the middle and "unfashionable" often gets left-out. And I've seen that happen when an act is doing 6-8 dates across the UK too.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on October 02, 2022, 03:15:14 PM
Recently with Fleet Foxes. Even after messaging Robin Pecknold about it.Re the Arctic Monkeys stadium tour next summer, Birmingham is conspicuous by its absence. Coventry seems to be the midland offering. Imagine Manchester being overlooked for Leeds though, it just wouldn't happen.
Won’t they be rebuilding the North Stand next summer?
I just mean Brum being overlooked generally which seems to happen a lot as we know. If an international act is on tour in the UK, London and Manchester tend to get first dibs (south and north "fashionable places") while Birmingham, being in the middle and "unfashionable" often gets left-out. And I've seen that happen when an act is doing 6-8 dates across the UK too.
Post by: paul_e on October 02, 2022, 05:34:19 PM
I do wonder why the alexander stadium isnt used for these gigs.
I mooted this post Commonwealth Games. It's more suitable than our place and there is proven model for getting people to and from the stadium via the shuttle bus. I was near there on Friday and noticed that a lot of the infrastructure is still in place but they looked like they were removing the hardcore from the area where the shuttle buses were dropping off.
It's the wrong shape. For a gig it works far better to put the stage roughly over 1 penalty area and then use 2/3rds of the stadium. With the Alex only having the stands at the sides there's no obvious place to put the stage without putting a temporary stand back up.
For Villa park I suspect hosting gigs will be pretty common once we have the new stand in place, especially when the DE is reworked to add facilities.
Post by: eamonn on October 03, 2022, 01:19:05 AM
Post by: Drummond on October 03, 2022, 09:06:26 AM
On a another note, their bus shuttle service from the station and back is quite something, and precisely what we need.
Post by: chrisw1 on October 03, 2022, 09:13:21 AM
Post by: Risso on October 03, 2022, 09:43:43 AM
Elland Road is a dump, but the space they have that could be developed if they got their arses in gear is something.
On a another note, their bus shuttle service from the station and back is quite something, and precisely what we need.
It's a weird ground, one massive quite modern stand that completely dwarfs the three shitty old ones. Like you say though, they've got loads of space around them that they could do something quite impressive with. It's a relatively easy ground to get to, and to get away from.
Post by: London Villan on October 03, 2022, 09:47:37 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on October 03, 2022, 09:55:24 AM
Post by: brontebilly on October 03, 2022, 01:58:53 PM
Post by: Villan82 on October 03, 2022, 02:03:00 PM
Post by: eamonn on October 03, 2022, 02:05:20 PM
I know there is no such thing as good timing but....in light of the UK political developments and impact of same on people's disposable income..is now really the time for massive capital investment in the stadium? I'd hope it is but we hardly want thousands of empty seats either.
I read the news today, Kwasi's klime-down has saved the day.
Post by: eamonn on October 03, 2022, 02:06:16 PM
Also the Happy Mondays gig there with fans hanging off the floodlights…
Think that was just Bez and his mates
Post by: john e on October 03, 2022, 04:28:19 PM
Also the Happy Mondays gig there with fans hanging off the floodlights…
Think that was just Bez and his mates
Random info
My eldest lad worked on a party boat in Ayia Napa 10 years ago and had a night out with Bez and his mates, Apparently a good time was had by all
Post by: eamonn on October 03, 2022, 04:51:17 PM
Post by: exigo on October 03, 2022, 05:15:24 PM
Elland Road is a dump, but the space they have that could be developed if they got their arses in gear is something.
On a another note, their bus shuttle service from the station and back is quite something, and precisely what we need.
Really noticeable yesterday how much they'd stepped up the shuttle bus service. We normally get an Uber from the McDonalds opposite as the only viable quick way back into town without walking. Yesterday we walked straight onto the shuttle bus and were in town in seconds, thanks to them stopping the traffic to let the buses out.
Post by: London Villan on October 03, 2022, 06:50:01 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 03, 2022, 07:44:18 PM
Elland Road is a dump, but the space they have that could be developed if they got their arses in gear is something.
On a another note, their bus shuttle service from the station and back is quite something, and precisely what we need.
Really noticeable yesterday how much they'd stepped up the shuttle bus service. We normally get an Uber from the McDonalds opposite as the only viable quick way back into town without walking. Yesterday we walked straight onto the shuttle bus and were in town in seconds, thanks to them stopping the traffic to let the buses out.
Is that just for away fans, though?
Post by: Ads on October 03, 2022, 10:17:28 PM
I know there is no such thing as good timing but....in light of the UK political developments and impact of same on people's disposable income..is now really the time for massive capital investment in the stadium? I'd hope it is but we hardly want thousands of empty seats either.
Wes Edens wealth has increased to $5.5bn. So, yes.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 03, 2022, 11:11:10 PM
I know there is no such thing as good timing but....in light of the UK political developments and impact of same on people's disposable income..is now really the time for massive capital investment in the stadium? I'd hope it is but we hardly want thousands of empty seats either.
Wes Edens wealth has increased to $5.5bn. So, yes.
And he’s the skint one.
Post by: SoccerHQ on October 03, 2022, 11:21:48 PM
That appears to beyond Villa and Birmingham city council.
It didn't use to be. During the Lerner era there were shuttle buses from Tamworth, Redditch etc that would be parked up on Witton Lane.
It can't be beyond them to come to agreement to run 2-3 shuttle buses from half 1 from the Fort/Star city to ease parking around the ground and create less gridlock.
Post by: nordenvillain on October 04, 2022, 12:03:16 AM
I also was impressed with their shuttle bus services after the game - Are you watching Andy Street, Christian Purslow and WMPTE or whatever you call it (I live outside of Manchester !). Also thought the away section with its covered walkway was relatively easy to get in and out of. But I agree, the ground is looking dated now and needs a major update. Police were about the most friendly I've encountered at an away ground, suppose any away supporter is a joy to watch over after you've had to watch over Leeds fans.Elland Road is a dump, but the space they have that could be developed if they got their arses in gear is something.
On a another note, their bus shuttle service from the station and back is quite something, and precisely what we need.
It's a weird ground, one massive quite modern stand that completely dwarfs the three shitty old ones. Like you say though, they've got loads of space around them that they could do something quite impressive with. It's a relatively easy ground to get to, and to get away from.
Post by: frank black on October 04, 2022, 08:31:32 PM
Hope this is OK to share here. It’s for those impacted by the proposed changes to C4 and C5 which will in all likelihood become corporate seats once the development is complete. Whether you agree with it or not, it’s an opportunity for those impacted to voice their views and keep updated (hopefully)
Post by: ChicagoLion on October 04, 2022, 08:46:21 PM
I don’t like the general direction we seem to be heading.
Although it is where the PL is, the fans that attend are now the equivalent of extras at a film set.
The difference is the extras get paid.
Post by: London Villan on October 04, 2022, 08:49:13 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on October 04, 2022, 08:49:27 PM
I’d be pissed off if I lost my seat (I might if they bring standing into the Holte upper), but it’s the price we pay unfortunately.
The new stand is increasing capacity by 7k, but only about 3.5k is additional standard seating post reconfiguration of the seating - which means more corporate in the Trinity
Post by: ChicagoLion on October 04, 2022, 08:54:50 PM
But they can’t organise a drink and a pie inside the ground.
Post by: London Villan on October 04, 2022, 08:56:04 PM
Post by: frank black on October 04, 2022, 09:00:26 PM
Post by: London Villan on October 04, 2022, 09:02:46 PM
Post by: frank black on October 04, 2022, 09:04:26 PM
It’s actually described as general admission “plus”, which could just mean premium prices for regular seats, based on access to a pre-match bar. So until we know the full details I’m not worrying too much yet
Still means it’s moving out of price range though. Realistically, access to a premium bar/food and soft chair isn’t going to cost you a couple of hundred quid more.
Post by: London Villan on October 04, 2022, 09:08:52 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on October 04, 2022, 10:42:22 PM
I think it’s being poorly implemented, the club are yet to communicate with those impacted. To make them aware of their plans or what the alternatives might be. Lots of very longstanding season ticket holders that know each other very well , wondering what the options might be… in all likelihood not going to get a similar view seat togetherIn fairness it hasn’t even got planning consent yet and won’t be complete for 2 years. They’ve got quite a long time to liaise with fans about a seating plan and would probably prefer to do so when the detailed plans are finalised
Post by: Drummond on October 05, 2022, 06:59:49 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on October 05, 2022, 07:13:56 AM
That may be what they'd prefer to do, but it's not what they should do.I don’t think it would reflect well if they said to some fans, you may lose your seats but we’re not quite sure, we’re not quite sure what the seating layout and pricing will be in the new stand so no we can’t discuss that as an option yet. No, not 100% on timescales so cant really confirm that either. Yes, we know it’s a bit shit, but we just wanted to worry you about your seat as early as possible without being able to confirm anything or discuss alternatives. That’s right, we felt it was the right thing to do.
Post by: TelfordVilla on October 05, 2022, 07:26:27 AM
that's OK. The Mail have already done that for them.That may be what they'd prefer to do, but it's not what they should do.I don’t think it would reflect well if they said to some fans, you may lose your seats but we’re not quite sure, we’re not quite sure what the seating layout and pricing will be in the new stand so no we can’t discuss that as an option yet. No, not 100% on timescales so cant really confirm that either. Yes, we know it’s a bit shit, but we just wanted to worry you about your seat as early as possible without being able to confirm anything or discuss alternatives. That’s right, we felt it was the right thing to do.
Post by: frank black on October 05, 2022, 07:57:03 AM
That may be what they'd prefer to do, but it's not what they should do.I don’t think it would reflect well if they said to some fans, you may lose your seats but we’re not quite sure, we’re not quite sure what the seating layout and pricing will be in the new stand so no we can’t discuss that as an option yet. No, not 100% on timescales so cant really confirm that either. Yes, we know it’s a bit shit, but we just wanted to worry you about your seat as early as possible without being able to confirm anything or discuss alternatives. That’s right, we felt it was the right thing to do.
The alternative happened. We found out about this whilst trawling through the planning application and realised we might be loosing our seats. So contacted the club, only for them to say they know nothing about it and they’ll get back to us. A simple communication telling us this is in the pipeline and that they will contact us closer to the time with alternative options would have sufficed…. People would still be pi@@ed off anyway, but at least the club doesn’t look like it might be hiding something.
Post by: chrisw1 on October 05, 2022, 08:51:43 AM
I still think if they had contacted you and said it's possible you will lose your seat but we're not sure and have no further info at this point, you'd still think it was a shitshow and be complaining about that. I'm not quite sure what people expect from the club here when plans are still evolving? If ultimately you do lose your seat (for which I would have sympathy) I'd guess you'll still have at least 12-18 months notice with the various options on the table, hopefully including location, indicative pricing and possibly even CGI seat views etc. Isn't that enough?That may be what they'd prefer to do, but it's not what they should do.I don’t think it would reflect well if they said to some fans, you may lose your seats but we’re not quite sure, we’re not quite sure what the seating layout and pricing will be in the new stand so no we can’t discuss that as an option yet. No, not 100% on timescales so cant really confirm that either. Yes, we know it’s a bit shit, but we just wanted to worry you about your seat as early as possible without being able to confirm anything or discuss alternatives. That’s right, we felt it was the right thing to do.
The alternative happened. We found out about this whilst trawling through the planning application and realised we might be loosing our seats. So contacted the club, only for them to say they know nothing about it and they’ll get back to us. A simple communication telling us this is in the pipeline and that they will contact us closer to the time with alternative options would have sufficed…. People would still be pi@@ed off anyway, but at least the club doesn’t look like it might be hiding something.
Post by: London Villan on October 05, 2022, 09:06:17 AM
I'd imagine those blocks behind the dugout have a massive proportion of fans that have been season ticket holders for 15-20 years and who have stuck by the club through some pretty dismal times (as I am sure there are other blocks around the ground that have a similar proportion). It would've been good from the club to at least indicate to a group of longstanding and pretty loyal fans (paying customers who will have spent £000s with the club) that due to the redevelopment things might change - rather than fans finding out through delving into the planning docs and word of mouth.
There is a big gap in Villa's pricing model - from top-end match tickets at £60 each through to low-end hospitality at £150ish each. C4 and C5 (along with a similar section in the new North Stand according to the plans) will be priced to bridge that gap.
Post by: Clampy on October 05, 2022, 09:11:33 AM
Post by: Nev on October 05, 2022, 09:58:02 AM
I wonder how much this is about creating an almost neutral buffer between the players and coaches and the normal fans, there was talk about some trouble, if you can call it that, a couple of weeks ago.
Post by: chrisw1 on October 05, 2022, 10:01:04 AM
I wonder how much this is about creating an almost neutral buffer between the players and coaches and the normal fans,I'd imagine none of it whatsoever.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 05, 2022, 10:06:54 AM
The blocks around the dug outs at Wembley are corporate and look terrible after HT and at the start of the match due to latecomers taking their seats, I wager you will see the same in this case.
That is exactly what I was thinking - it needs to be full every week or it's going to look very embarassing.
Post by: frank black on October 05, 2022, 10:07:18 AM
I'm with Chris on this one. I'm sure the club will contact those affected when everything is finalised. It's not as if it's all going to happen tomorrow.
Generally I’d expect these discussions go on behind closed doors before coming to conclusions. So they can announce them once confirmed. It’s unfortunate that this has come out via some digging from supporters. It will be interesting to see if we get any further info at this stage or whether they decide to wait until whatever stage is next in the planning. They’ll probably sit us next to our old seats and make us watch them eating their snacks, sitting in their heated padded seats and sipping their fizz. 😂
Post by: LeeB on October 05, 2022, 10:22:50 AM
Post by: eamonn on October 05, 2022, 10:57:15 AM
The blocks around the dug outs at Wembley are corporate and look terrible after HT and at the start of the match due to latecomers taking their seats, I wager you will see the same in this case.
That is exactly what I was thinking - it needs to be full every week or it's going to look very embarassing.
Didn't we already have this issue after the Trinity was redeveloped? Switched the TV gantry back to the Doug Ellis stand but the gaping gaps in the middle of the Trinity where corporates were slow to take-up their seats made the stadium look half-empty? Maybe I imagined that as I can't find footage with the camera pointing from the Trinity.
Post by: frank black on October 05, 2022, 10:59:49 AM
If I was paying top whack I'd want to be watching from a more elevated level than that.
Agreed, the actual match view (especially the first 7/8 rows) isn’t great. They are good seats for the interaction with the bench and that pitch side feel. But yep I certainly would pay a premium for em.
Post by: LeeB on October 05, 2022, 11:04:04 AM
If I was paying top whack I'd want to be watching from a more elevated level than that.
Agreed, the actual match view (especially the first 7/8 rows) isn’t great. They are good seats for the interaction with the bench and that pitch side feel. But yep I certainly would pay a premium for em.
I used to sit a few rows behind the dugouts in the old stand in the Big Ron era, it was good fun with the interactions as you say, but I don't enjoy the lowered perspective these days. I'd rather be higher behind the goal than lower down side on.
Post by: chrisw1 on October 05, 2022, 11:04:14 AM
I'm sure most big clubs have this issue and you'll see it at every international game too. It comes with the territory and the need to pay huge wages to compete.The blocks around the dug outs at Wembley are corporate and look terrible after HT and at the start of the match due to latecomers taking their seats, I wager you will see the same in this case.
That is exactly what I was thinking - it needs to be full every week or it's going to look very embarassing.
Didn't we already have this issue after the Trinity was redeveloped? Switched the TV gantry back to the Doug Ellis stand but the gaping gaps in the middle of the Trinity where corporates were slow to take-up their seats made the stadium look half-empty? Maybe I imagined that as I can't find footage with the camera pointing from the Trinity.
Post by: frank black on October 05, 2022, 11:32:01 AM
If I was paying top whack I'd want to be watching from a more elevated level than that.
Agreed, the actual match view (especially the first 7/8 rows) isn’t great. They are good seats for the interaction with the bench and that pitch side feel. But yep I certainly would pay a premium for em.
I used to sit a few rows behind the dugouts in the old stand in the Big Ron era, it was good fun with the interactions as you say, but I don't enjoy the lowered perspective these days. I'd rather be higher behind the goal than lower down side on.
Best seat I had was upper Witton, first row and on the half way line. Absolutely perfect .
Post by: eamonn on October 05, 2022, 12:15:49 PM
I'm sure most big clubs have this issue and you'll see it at every international game too. It comes with the territory and the need to pay huge wages to compete.The blocks around the dug outs at Wembley are corporate and look terrible after HT and at the start of the match due to latecomers taking their seats, I wager you will see the same in this case.
That is exactly what I was thinking - it needs to be full every week or it's going to look very embarassing.
Didn't we already have this issue after the Trinity was redeveloped? Switched the TV gantry back to the Doug Ellis stand but the gaping gaps in the middle of the Trinity where corporates were slow to take-up their seats made the stadium look half-empty? Maybe I imagined that as I can't find footage with the camera pointing from the Trinity.
I've only ever notice it sticking out at Villa Park and Wembley. Oh and behind one of the goals at Old Trafford - where they have that weird section of banked/spacious seating that looks half-empty underneath the away supporters.
Post by: OCD on October 05, 2022, 12:21:23 PM
Post by: Bad English on October 05, 2022, 12:24:58 PM
Post by: Drummond on October 05, 2022, 12:36:04 PM
Post by: LeeB on October 05, 2022, 12:41:06 PM
You can understand people not coming out immediately at VP as the food and drink offer is very tempting when compared to the sight of the ball being hoofed up to the pinball section. It's a bit like the Egg-Chasing League at the Catalans Dragons, I spend more time at the free bar (to be fair who wouldn't when watching St Helens batter us again).
I've been horse racing twice and I haven't seen the track on either occasion.
Post by: PGW on October 05, 2022, 12:49:39 PM
You can understand people not coming out immediately at VP as the food and drink offer is very tempting when compared to the sight of the ball being hoofed up to the pinball section. It's a bit like the Egg-Chasing League at the Catalans Dragons, I spend more time at the free bar (to be fair who wouldn't when watching St Helens batter us again).
I've been horse racing twice and I haven't seen the track on either occasion.
i can relate to the horse racing analogy, i more often stay in O & T lounge totting and taking full advantage of the hospitality. Just popping to the parade ring when
whichever horse i'm involved with is about to run.
At Worcester tomorrow, i hope there's a massive improvement in weather.
Post by: Risso on October 05, 2022, 01:10:56 PM
You can understand people not coming out immediately at VP as the food and drink offer is very tempting when compared to the sight of the ball being hoofed up to the pinball section. It's a bit like the Egg-Chasing League at the Catalans Dragons, I spend more time at the free bar (to be fair who wouldn't when watching St Helens batter us again).
I've been horse racing twice and I haven't seen the track on either occasion.
Same here. Might as well just go to a nice bar or restaurant.
Post by: DBTW on October 05, 2022, 02:31:22 PM
Post by: eamonn on October 05, 2022, 03:46:18 PM
/pat-head-patronising
Post by: chrisw1 on October 05, 2022, 03:50:17 PM
(I know, I know... but progress and all that)
Post by: exigo on October 05, 2022, 07:25:37 PM
Elland Road is a dump, but the space they have that could be developed if they got their arses in gear is something.
On a another note, their bus shuttle service from the station and back is quite something, and precisely what we need.
Really noticeable yesterday how much they'd stepped up the shuttle bus service. We normally get an Uber from the McDonalds opposite as the only viable quick way back into town without walking. Yesterday we walked straight onto the shuttle bus and were in town in seconds, thanks to them stopping the traffic to let the buses out.
Is that just for away fans, though?
Nope, open to all
Post by: amfy on October 05, 2022, 07:28:47 PM
The rest of the seats are half empty anyway with everyone waiting for a beer or pie.
This - I think I spend more time at my seat in the hospitality section because theres no need to queue for a beer before half time, or to queue for the loo, so you just get to your table, drink, go back out.
Post by: The Man With A Stick on October 06, 2022, 05:25:31 PM
The blocks around the dug outs at Wembley are corporate and look terrible after HT and at the start of the match due to latecomers taking their seats, I wager you will see the same in this case.
That is exactly what I was thinking - it needs to be full every week or it's going to look very embarassing.
Didn't we already have this issue after the Trinity was redeveloped? Switched the TV gantry back to the Doug Ellis stand but the gaping gaps in the middle of the Trinity where corporates were slow to take-up their seats made the stadium look half-empty? Maybe I imagined that as I can't find footage with the camera pointing from the Trinity.
2000/1 season the cameras definitely were in there, only remember that because I must have seen the highlights of the Cov game about a thousand times.
Post by: nigel on October 06, 2022, 08:10:59 PM
He’s in block C4 and he’s found out that C4&5 are going to be hospitality blocks 🙄
** this may have been covered earlier**
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 07, 2022, 08:09:57 AM
Post by: Clampy on October 07, 2022, 08:57:16 AM
Pink playing this summer. Not sure if that delays things though don't we already have Bruce Springsteen?
They're only squad fillers anyway.
Post by: sid1964 on October 07, 2022, 09:48:20 AM
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 07, 2022, 09:55:30 AM
Post by: LeeB on October 07, 2022, 10:04:45 AM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
You lucky, lucky man.
Post by: nigel on October 07, 2022, 12:02:12 PM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
She’s flippin great, mate.
Bit of a rock chic.
Might try and get tickets for this one
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on October 07, 2022, 12:55:53 PM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
Lucky devil, her songs are all crap
Post by: eamonn on October 07, 2022, 01:13:32 PM
Post by: amfy on October 07, 2022, 01:21:04 PM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
Fabulous live show
Post by: The Edge on October 07, 2022, 01:35:59 PM
That big section of empty corporate seats at Wembley looks terrible. The ones at Old Trafford you mention are for wheelchair users. Hopefully they're strict with stopping service on time in the new Trinity corporate seats to get them back in them asap after halftimeI'm sure most big clubs have this issue and you'll see it at every international game too. It comes with the territory and the need to pay huge wages to compete.The blocks around the dug outs at Wembley are corporate and look terrible after HT and at the start of the match due to latecomers taking their seats, I wager you will see the same in this case.
That is exactly what I was thinking - it needs to be full every week or it's going to look very embarassing.
Didn't we already have this issue after the Trinity was redeveloped? Switched the TV gantry back to the Doug Ellis stand but the gaping gaps in the middle of the Trinity where corporates were slow to take-up their seats made the stadium look half-empty? Maybe I imagined that as I can't find footage with the camera pointing from the Trinity.
I've only ever notice it sticking out at Villa Park and Wembley. Oh and behind one of the goals at Old Trafford - where they have that weird section of banked/spacious seating that looks half-empty underneath the away supporters.
Post by: Nev on October 07, 2022, 02:05:56 PM
Not for me Beaky.
Post by: paul_e on October 07, 2022, 02:26:16 PM
Post by: Risso on October 07, 2022, 02:50:09 PM
That big section of empty corporate seats at Wembley looks terrible. The ones at Old Trafford you mention are for wheelchair users. Hopefully they're strict with stopping service on time in the new Trinity corporate seats to get them back in them asap after halftime
You can't force anybody to go and take their seat if they really don't want to.
Post by: Axl Rose on October 07, 2022, 02:52:51 PM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
Lucky devil, her songs are all crap
Absolutely. Utter shite.
Post by: LeeB on October 07, 2022, 03:04:56 PM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
Lucky devil, her songs are all crap
Absolutely. Utter shite.
Rock music for Heart FM listeners
Post by: Axl Rose on October 07, 2022, 03:06:58 PM
Just received email from Villa about Pink concert - i have not heard of her or any of her songs? but she must be popular to fill Villa Park.
Good news about the concert and a good money earner for the Villa.
Lucky devil, her songs are all crap
Absolutely. Utter shite.
Rock music for Heart FM listeners
Ha! Bloody hell, Heart FM takes me back to working nights at the Tesco distribution centre in Hinckley as a student during summer holidays.
Post by: LeeB on October 07, 2022, 03:14:17 PM
Post by: Drummond on October 07, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
I had it in the 90's at the Lloyds Bank clearing house in town where I was one of only 3 blokes out of about 40 staff. Toni Braxton's Unchain My Heart brings me out in a rash as a result.
I bet you were all over Cher's Believe crap too.
Post by: LeeB on October 07, 2022, 03:46:57 PM
I had it in the 90's at the Lloyds Bank clearing house in town where I was one of only 3 blokes out of about 40 staff. Toni Braxton's Unchain My Heart brings me out in a rash as a result.
I bet you were all over Cher's Believe crap too.
For real
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 07, 2022, 04:06:49 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on October 07, 2022, 04:52:21 PM
Post by: Risso on October 07, 2022, 05:47:35 PM
Post by: nigel on October 07, 2022, 05:51:34 PM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.
Tuesday 13th June at 12:00 (mid day)!!
Post by: Ian. on October 07, 2022, 05:51:56 PM
I’d love to tag along with my eldest to see Girl in Red next year, she’s ace, it’s just the crowd would see me as some old fart in the corner trying be young. Anyway my daughter would never let me go with her. Damn shame really as she was brilliant in one the small tents at Glasto this year, probably my favourite of everything I watched on the Iplayer.
Post by: LeeB on October 07, 2022, 06:35:15 PM
Post by: eamonn on October 07, 2022, 06:56:55 PM
My lad wanted me to take him with me to see Depeche Mode but at £108 a ticket he can bollocks.
But you can bond over how Violator changed your life!
Post by: astonvilla82 on October 07, 2022, 08:19:06 PM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.she's in Benidorm next week,Pink that is, cheap as chips
Post by: Clampy on October 08, 2022, 08:52:17 AM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.she's in Benidorm next week,Pink that is, cheap as chips
But it'll just be Mandy from Rochdale wearing leggings and a pink wig.
Post by: Simon Page on October 08, 2022, 09:43:09 AM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.
I'm posting this mainly to take the heat off Rory and RHCP. Pink has probably the best touring band going. Especially the bass player and backing singers, but they're all phenomenal. Her fans have an undercurrent of menace about them - and not in a K-Pop gonna hack your Twitter way. And her Funhouse Tour gig at Cov was the best concert I've ever seen (and I've seen some good ones).
I can promise you the best performance by a home side at Villa Park this decade will be Pink, regardless of whether you like middle of the road toons or, to give it it's proper name, anything recorded by Americans.
Post by: Risso on October 08, 2022, 09:59:32 AM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.
I'm posting this mainly to take the heat off Rory and RHCP. Pink has probably the best touring band going. Especially the bass player and backing singers, but they're all phenomenal. Her fans have an undercurrent of menace about them - and not in a K-Pop gonna hack your Twitter way. And her Funhouse Tour gig at Cov was the best concert I've ever seen (and I've seen some good ones).
I can promise you the best performance by a home side at Villa Park this decade will be Pink, regardless of whether you like middle of the road toons or, to give it it's proper name, anything recorded by Americans.
I bet it's more fun than watching Springsteen as well.
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 08, 2022, 10:28:00 AM
Post by: Simon Page on October 08, 2022, 10:54:59 AM
I bet it's more fun than watching Springsteen as well.
Definitely. More importantly, your daughter won't forget the gig in a hurry. Especially if you go for the eye-wateringly expensive tickets up the front.
Post by: Ian. on October 08, 2022, 11:08:51 AM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.she's in Benidorm next week,Pink that is, cheap as chips
But it'll just be Mandy from Rochdale wearing leggings and a pink wig.
As long as it’s not Sticky Vicky.
Post by: Clampy on October 08, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
My eldest daughter has expressed a desire to go to see Pink so if I can get tickets I'll take her. Not really my cup of tea, but I bet she puts on a decent show. We're taking the younger ones to see Harry Styles next year as well. Don't even care.she's in Benidorm next week,Pink that is, cheap as chips
But it'll just be Mandy from Rochdale wearing leggings and a pink wig.
As long as it’s not Sticky Vicky.
I walked past her in Benidorm once, at least I was told it was her. She wasn't pulling anything out of her twat at the time though.
Post by: The Edge on October 08, 2022, 11:47:46 AM
Edit: just realised how dodgy that looks. Her daughter is probably in her 40's.
Edit Edit: How's this ended up on the Villa Park redevelopment page.
Post by: Ian. on October 08, 2022, 12:28:59 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on October 08, 2022, 12:51:58 PM
My lad wanted me to take him with me to see Depeche Mode but at £108 a ticket he can bollocks.
Going the Ashes, so can't go. Pleased to see they're touring after Fletcher's death
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 08, 2022, 01:39:59 PM
Sticky Vickys daughter sat on my face at my stag do.
And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the best single sentence I've read on here in about 15 years.
Post by: Richard E on October 08, 2022, 01:44:52 PM
My lad wanted me to take him with me to see Depeche Mode but at £108 a ticket he can bollocks.
Going the Ashes, so can't go. Pleased to see they're touring after Fletcher's death
I’d imagine they’ll do a stadium tour of the uk later in 2023 based on previous experience. I hope so, anyway.
Post by: LeeB on October 08, 2022, 02:49:53 PM
My lad wanted me to take him with me to see Depeche Mode but at £108 a ticket he can bollocks.
I’d imagine they’ll do a stadium tour of the uk later in 2023 based on previous experience. I hope so, anyway.
Going the Ashes, so can't go. Pleased to see they're touring after Fletcher's death
I'm not taking that chance, if either of them pop off in between it's curtains.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on October 08, 2022, 10:11:20 PM
Leon Edwards has confirmed his welterweight trilogy fight against Kamaru Usman will happen next year and wants it to take place at Villa Park in Birmingham.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 09, 2022, 07:54:38 AM
To temper the palate after all the Pink talk, Sky Sports have this about Birmingham's own UFC World Champion
Leon Edwards has confirmed his welterweight trilogy fight against Kamaru Usman will happen next year and wants it to take place at Villa Park in Birmingham.
Great stuff, I hope he gets his wish.
Post by: PeterWithe on October 14, 2022, 08:06:08 AM
Sticky Vickys daughter sat on my face at my stag do.
Edit: just realised how dodgy that looks. Her daughter is probably in her 40's.
Edit Edit: How's this ended up on the Villa Park redevelopment page.
I saw Sticky Vicky’s daughter doing a turn in a bar in Benidorm, at the time I didn’t realise that she hadn’t followed her mum into the family business and was, in fact, an acrobat. One of her helpers unwrapped this climbing frame type contraption and I turned to my mate and said ‘blimey its going to smart getting that up there’.
Post by: Rory on October 14, 2022, 09:03:42 AM
Post by: LeeB on October 14, 2022, 09:43:12 AM
I'm almost certainly better off not knowing, but who is 'Sticky Vicky'?
She's a kind of prototype Marie Kondo, only she makes her vag the cupboard.
Post by: Rory on October 14, 2022, 09:47:21 AM
I'm almost certainly better off not knowing, but who is 'Sticky Vicky'?
She's a kind of prototype Marie Kondo, only she makes her vag the cupboard.
Why?!
Post by: LeeB on October 14, 2022, 09:49:35 AM
I'm almost certainly better off not knowing, but who is 'Sticky Vicky'?
She's a kind of prototype Marie Kondo, only she makes her vag the cupboard.
Why?!
Because Benidorm would be my guess. And you gotta use your skills to pay the bills.
Post by: Rory on October 14, 2022, 09:53:31 AM
I'm almost certainly better off not knowing, but who is 'Sticky Vicky'?
She's a kind of prototype Marie Kondo, only she makes her vag the cupboard.
Why?!
Because Benidorm would be my guess. And you gotta use your skills to pay the bills.
Ah, Benidorm. Okay.
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 14, 2022, 12:41:31 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on October 14, 2022, 01:03:12 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_Vicky
Not entirely sure if this is what Purslow is thinking of for Villa Live.
Post by: LeeB on October 14, 2022, 01:07:54 PM
It's amusing trying to imagine the circumstances in which this conversation took place.
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 14, 2022, 01:08:15 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 14, 2022, 01:08:47 PM
"A magician suggested that she perform a magic act by removing unusual objects from her vagina"
It's amusing trying to imagine the circumstances in which this conversation took place.
It's a bold chat up line, fair play.
Post by: Risso on October 14, 2022, 01:12:34 PM
Post by: CT Villan on October 14, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 14, 2022, 01:16:15 PM
Post by: Rory on October 14, 2022, 01:17:57 PM
Hmm.
Post by: dave.woodhall on October 14, 2022, 01:27:29 PM
Post by: Risso on October 14, 2022, 01:59:46 PM
I bet it's more fun than watching Springsteen as well.
Definitely. More importantly, your daughter won't forget the gig in a hurry. Especially if you go for the eye-wateringly expensive tickets up the front.
The "dynamic pricing" for Pink means tickets are now averaging about £400 each. I'll buy her a DVD instead I think.
Post by: cdbearsfan on October 14, 2022, 02:01:03 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on October 14, 2022, 02:31:05 PM
I bet it's more fun than watching Springsteen as well.
Definitely. More importantly, your daughter won't forget the gig in a hurry. Especially if you go for the eye-wateringly expensive tickets up the front.
The "dynamic pricing" for Pink means tickets are now averaging about £400 each. I'll buy her a DVD instead I think.
Couldn't you get her to play your back garden?
Post by: frank black on October 14, 2022, 02:43:28 PM
They need to ban that nonsense.
They do indeed, absolute disgraceful behavior from toutmaster and the artists. Off topic apologies
Post by: amfy on October 14, 2022, 02:54:22 PM
I bet it's more fun than watching Springsteen as well.
Definitely. More importantly, your daughter won't forget the gig in a hurry. Especially if you go for the eye-wateringly expensive tickets up the front.
The "dynamic pricing" for Pink means tickets are now averaging about £400 each. I'll buy her a DVD instead I think.
I thought it was outrageous at £104 when I looked at the presale!
Post by: eamonn on October 14, 2022, 04:49:48 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on October 14, 2022, 05:19:43 PM
Post by: Risso on October 14, 2022, 11:59:47 PM
I bet it's more fun than watching Springsteen as well.
Definitely. More importantly, your daughter won't forget the gig in a hurry. Especially if you go for the eye-wateringly expensive tickets up the front.
The "dynamic pricing" for Pink means tickets are now averaging about £400 each. I'll buy her a DVD instead I think.
Couldn't you get her to play your back garden?
As long as she doesn't mind a bit of alpaca shit.
Post by: Flin5tone on October 19, 2022, 07:32:33 AM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on October 19, 2022, 08:11:25 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on October 19, 2022, 09:44:27 AM
Also noticed outside the Trinity that the personalisation on the pavers has worn away.
The one I bought has completely worn away.
Post by: Dogtanian on November 16, 2022, 01:01:34 PM
https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/1592851270343483393?s=20&t=u-ZeO5N-rdjXeGK_rYJc3w (https://twitter.com/RobHarris/status/1592851270343483393?s=20&t=u-ZeO5N-rdjXeGK_rYJc3w)
Post by: FatSam on November 16, 2022, 02:01:12 PM
Quote
Fourteen venues shortlisted by the UK and Ireland bid to host Euro 2028
Stadiums across five countries include nine from England
Hopes high for Uefa approval in September 2023
Ben Fisher
Wed 16 Nov 2022 13.04 GMT
The four UK nations and Ireland have submitted a dossier to Uefa outlining their plans to host Euro 2028, with 14 stadiums across the five countries shortlisted to hold matches, including Everton’s future home at Bramley-Moore Dock and Sunderland’s Stadium of Light, one of two north-east venues selected. A final list of 10 will be submitted in April 2023.
Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have one stadium and the Republic of Ireland two, with the remaining nine in England, including two in the north-east, which was controversially overlooked for this year’s Women’s European Championship.
The stadiums selected are: Villa Park, Everton Stadium, London Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Etihad Stadium, St James’ Park, Stadium of Light, Old Trafford, Dublin Arena, Croke Park, Belfast Casement Park Stadium, Hampden Park and the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.
The UK government is thought to be confident that its joint bid will be approved by Uefa, with Turkey the only other country in the running. Russia had announced its intention to bid but was ruled out by its Uefa ban from football since its invasion of Ukraine. Uefa’s executive committee will decide the hosts in September 2023.
A joint statement from the UK nations and Ireland outlining their preliminary vision for the tournament said all stadiums were well connected. It added: “The UK and Ireland’s track record of hosting successful major sporting events over many decades means we have the expertise and experience to take this world-class tournament to new heights.”
The UK and Ireland this year shelved plans to host the 2030 World Cup. The English Football Association’s chief executive, Mark Bullingham, cited vast expense and “many areas of uncertainty”.
No Anfield or Emirates. Four of the shortlisted venues will lose out when the final choice of 10 is made.
Post by: London Villan on November 16, 2022, 02:05:58 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on November 16, 2022, 02:07:54 PM
The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/16/fvenues-shortlisted-uk-and-ireland-bid-to-host-euro-2028-matches)QuoteFourteen venues shortlisted by the UK and Ireland bid to host Euro 2028
Stadiums across five countries include nine from England
Hopes high for Uefa approval in September 2023
Ben Fisher
Wed 16 Nov 2022 13.04 GMT
The four UK nations and Ireland have submitted a dossier to Uefa outlining their plans to host Euro 2028, with 14 stadiums across the five countries shortlisted to hold matches, including Everton’s future home at Bramley-Moore Dock and Sunderland’s Stadium of Light, one of two north-east venues selected. A final list of 10 will be submitted in April 2023.
Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have one stadium and the Republic of Ireland two, with the remaining nine in England, including two in the north-east, which was controversially overlooked for this year’s Women’s European Championship.
The stadiums selected are: Villa Park, Everton Stadium, London Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Etihad Stadium, St James’ Park, Stadium of Light, Old Trafford, Dublin Arena, Croke Park, Belfast Casement Park Stadium, Hampden Park and the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.
The UK government is thought to be confident that its joint bid will be approved by Uefa, with Turkey the only other country in the running. Russia had announced its intention to bid but was ruled out by its Uefa ban from football since its invasion of Ukraine. Uefa’s executive committee will decide the hosts in September 2023.
A joint statement from the UK nations and Ireland outlining their preliminary vision for the tournament said all stadiums were well connected. It added: “The UK and Ireland’s track record of hosting successful major sporting events over many decades means we have the expertise and experience to take this world-class tournament to new heights.”
The UK and Ireland this year shelved plans to host the 2030 World Cup. The English Football Association’s chief executive, Mark Bullingham, cited vast expense and “many areas of uncertainty”.
No Anfield or Emirates. Four of the shortlisted venues will lose out when the final choice of 10 is made.
Anfield doesn't qualify for UEFAs criteria as the pitch is too small, so couldn't be used - Everton will have a much better ground by then anyway, albeit smaller. No surprise really on The Emirates either, given there are 3 bigger grounds to pick in London already. What will be a real pisser is when they select West Ham's ground to justify all the public money that has gone into it, despite it being completely crap for football.
Hopefully by 2028 we won't just have had the North Stand rebuilt, and will have a new 20k Witton Lane stand ready to open in time to parade our 4th successive quadruple.
Post by: sid1964 on November 16, 2022, 02:08:02 PM
Our current capacity would mean that the stadium could not be used
Post by: FatSam on November 16, 2022, 02:12:37 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 16, 2022, 02:13:07 PM
West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
Post by: LeeB on November 16, 2022, 02:14:40 PM
The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/16/fvenues-shortlisted-uk-and-ireland-bid-to-host-euro-2028-matches)QuoteFourteen venues shortlisted by the UK and Ireland bid to host Euro 2028
Stadiums across five countries include nine from England
Hopes high for Uefa approval in September 2023
Ben Fisher
Wed 16 Nov 2022 13.04 GMT
The four UK nations and Ireland have submitted a dossier to Uefa outlining their plans to host Euro 2028, with 14 stadiums across the five countries shortlisted to hold matches, including Everton’s future home at Bramley-Moore Dock and Sunderland’s Stadium of Light, one of two north-east venues selected. A final list of 10 will be submitted in April 2023.
Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have one stadium and the Republic of Ireland two, with the remaining nine in England, including two in the north-east, which was controversially overlooked for this year’s Women’s European Championship.
The stadiums selected are: Villa Park, Everton Stadium, London Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Etihad Stadium, St James’ Park, Stadium of Light, Old Trafford, Dublin Arena, Croke Park, Belfast Casement Park Stadium, Hampden Park and the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.
The UK government is thought to be confident that its joint bid will be approved by Uefa, with Turkey the only other country in the running. Russia had announced its intention to bid but was ruled out by its Uefa ban from football since its invasion of Ukraine. Uefa’s executive committee will decide the hosts in September 2023.
A joint statement from the UK nations and Ireland outlining their preliminary vision for the tournament said all stadiums were well connected. It added: “The UK and Ireland’s track record of hosting successful major sporting events over many decades means we have the expertise and experience to take this world-class tournament to new heights.”
The UK and Ireland this year shelved plans to host the 2030 World Cup. The English Football Association’s chief executive, Mark Bullingham, cited vast expense and “many areas of uncertainty”.
No Anfield or Emirates. Four of the shortlisted venues will lose out when the final choice of 10 is made.
Anfield doesn't qualify for UEFAs criteria as the pitch is too small, so couldn't be used - Everton will have a much better ground by then anyway, albeit smaller. No surprise really on The Emirates either, given there are 3 bigger grounds to pick in London already. What will be a real pisser is when they select West Ham's ground to justify all the public money that has gone into it, despite it being completely crap for football.
Hopefully by 2028 we won't just have had the North Stand rebuilt, and will have a new 20k Witton Lane stand ready to open in time to parade our 4th successive quadruple.
Everton's might never get finished, they still haven't got all the funding in place and if it got canned, they've got to pay to have the site put back as it was.
Post by: DB on November 16, 2022, 02:36:37 PM
The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/16/fvenues-shortlisted-uk-and-ireland-bid-to-host-euro-2028-matches)QuoteFourteen venues shortlisted by the UK and Ireland bid to host Euro 2028
Stadiums across five countries include nine from England
Hopes high for Uefa approval in September 2023
Ben Fisher
Wed 16 Nov 2022 13.04 GMT
The four UK nations and Ireland have submitted a dossier to Uefa outlining their plans to host Euro 2028, with 14 stadiums across the five countries shortlisted to hold matches, including Everton’s future home at Bramley-Moore Dock and Sunderland’s Stadium of Light, one of two north-east venues selected. A final list of 10 will be submitted in April 2023.
Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have one stadium and the Republic of Ireland two, with the remaining nine in England, including two in the north-east, which was controversially overlooked for this year’s Women’s European Championship.
The stadiums selected are: Villa Park, Everton Stadium, London Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Etihad Stadium, St James’ Park, Stadium of Light, Old Trafford, Dublin Arena, Croke Park, Belfast Casement Park Stadium, Hampden Park and the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.
The UK government is thought to be confident that its joint bid will be approved by Uefa, with Turkey the only other country in the running. Russia had announced its intention to bid but was ruled out by its Uefa ban from football since its invasion of Ukraine. Uefa’s executive committee will decide the hosts in September 2023.
A joint statement from the UK nations and Ireland outlining their preliminary vision for the tournament said all stadiums were well connected. It added: “The UK and Ireland’s track record of hosting successful major sporting events over many decades means we have the expertise and experience to take this world-class tournament to new heights.”
The UK and Ireland this year shelved plans to host the 2030 World Cup. The English Football Association’s chief executive, Mark Bullingham, cited vast expense and “many areas of uncertainty”.
No Anfield or Emirates. Four of the shortlisted venues will lose out when the final choice of 10 is made.
Anfield doesn't qualify for UEFAs criteria as the pitch is too small, so couldn't be used - Everton will have a much better ground by then anyway, albeit smaller. No surprise really on The Emirates either, given there are 3 bigger grounds to pick in London already. What will be a real pisser is when they select West Ham's ground to justify all the public money that has gone into it, despite it being completely crap for football.
Hopefully by 2028 we won't just have had the North Stand rebuilt, and will have a new 20k Witton Lane stand ready to open in time to parade our 4th successive quadruple.
Everton's might never get finished, they still haven't got all the funding in place and if it got canned, they've got to pay to have the site put back as it was.
Won't help if they get relegated too.
Post by: rob_bridge on November 16, 2022, 02:51:54 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on November 16, 2022, 03:10:21 PM
I would have thought that if there was any chance that England could play there (maybe in a semi final) then Croke Park would be a non starter?West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
Post by: eamonn on November 16, 2022, 03:15:56 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on November 16, 2022, 04:09:26 PM
West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
Unless there is a drastic change in the near future, Northern Ireland will have to have one, so Belfast will be in there. The Rep of Ireland grounds are both in Dublin - isn't there a suitable ground in another part of the country so it could be shared out a bit?
Above all, does it mean that all 5 countries will qualify automatically?
Post by: eamonn on November 16, 2022, 04:13:58 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on November 16, 2022, 04:15:02 PM
The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/16/fvenues-shortlisted-uk-and-ireland-bid-to-host-euro-2028-matches)QuoteFourteen venues shortlisted by the UK and Ireland bid to host Euro 2028
Stadiums across five countries include nine from England
Hopes high for Uefa approval in September 2023
Ben Fisher
Wed 16 Nov 2022 13.04 GMT
The four UK nations and Ireland have submitted a dossier to Uefa outlining their plans to host Euro 2028, with 14 stadiums across the five countries shortlisted to hold matches, including Everton’s future home at Bramley-Moore Dock and Sunderland’s Stadium of Light, one of two north-east venues selected. A final list of 10 will be submitted in April 2023.
Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have one stadium and the Republic of Ireland two, with the remaining nine in England, including two in the north-east, which was controversially overlooked for this year’s Women’s European Championship.
The stadiums selected are: Villa Park, Everton Stadium, London Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Etihad Stadium, St James’ Park, Stadium of Light, Old Trafford, Dublin Arena, Croke Park, Belfast Casement Park Stadium, Hampden Park and the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.
The UK government is thought to be confident that its joint bid will be approved by Uefa, with Turkey the only other country in the running. Russia had announced its intention to bid but was ruled out by its Uefa ban from football since its invasion of Ukraine. Uefa’s executive committee will decide the hosts in September 2023.
A joint statement from the UK nations and Ireland outlining their preliminary vision for the tournament said all stadiums were well connected. It added: “The UK and Ireland’s track record of hosting successful major sporting events over many decades means we have the expertise and experience to take this world-class tournament to new heights.”
The UK and Ireland this year shelved plans to host the 2030 World Cup. The English Football Association’s chief executive, Mark Bullingham, cited vast expense and “many areas of uncertainty”.
No Anfield or Emirates. Four of the shortlisted venues will lose out when the final choice of 10 is made.
Anfield doesn't qualify for UEFAs criteria as the pitch is too small, so couldn't be used - Everton will have a much better ground by then anyway, albeit smaller. No surprise really on The Emirates either, given there are 3 bigger grounds to pick in London already. What will be a real pisser is when they select West Ham's ground to justify all the public money that has gone into it, despite it being completely crap for football.
Hopefully by 2028 we won't just have had the North Stand rebuilt, and will have a new 20k Witton Lane stand ready to open in time to parade our 4th successive quadruple.
Everton's might never get finished, they still haven't got all the funding in place and if it got canned, they've got to pay to have the site put back as it was.
Construction is pretty advanced now though isn't it, and would it mean unfilling part of the docks they've built the stadium on. Maybe they could just get Coventry and Small Heath to ground share there instead.
Post by: LeeB on November 16, 2022, 04:41:53 PM
The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/16/fvenues-shortlisted-uk-and-ireland-bid-to-host-euro-2028-matches)QuoteFourteen venues shortlisted by the UK and Ireland bid to host Euro 2028
Stadiums across five countries include nine from England
Hopes high for Uefa approval in September 2023
Ben Fisher
Wed 16 Nov 2022 13.04 GMT
The four UK nations and Ireland have submitted a dossier to Uefa outlining their plans to host Euro 2028, with 14 stadiums across the five countries shortlisted to hold matches, including Everton’s future home at Bramley-Moore Dock and Sunderland’s Stadium of Light, one of two north-east venues selected. A final list of 10 will be submitted in April 2023.
Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales each have one stadium and the Republic of Ireland two, with the remaining nine in England, including two in the north-east, which was controversially overlooked for this year’s Women’s European Championship.
The stadiums selected are: Villa Park, Everton Stadium, London Stadium, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Wembley Stadium, Etihad Stadium, St James’ Park, Stadium of Light, Old Trafford, Dublin Arena, Croke Park, Belfast Casement Park Stadium, Hampden Park and the Principality Stadium in Cardiff.
The UK government is thought to be confident that its joint bid will be approved by Uefa, with Turkey the only other country in the running. Russia had announced its intention to bid but was ruled out by its Uefa ban from football since its invasion of Ukraine. Uefa’s executive committee will decide the hosts in September 2023.
A joint statement from the UK nations and Ireland outlining their preliminary vision for the tournament said all stadiums were well connected. It added: “The UK and Ireland’s track record of hosting successful major sporting events over many decades means we have the expertise and experience to take this world-class tournament to new heights.”
The UK and Ireland this year shelved plans to host the 2030 World Cup. The English Football Association’s chief executive, Mark Bullingham, cited vast expense and “many areas of uncertainty”.
No Anfield or Emirates. Four of the shortlisted venues will lose out when the final choice of 10 is made.
Anfield doesn't qualify for UEFAs criteria as the pitch is too small, so couldn't be used - Everton will have a much better ground by then anyway, albeit smaller. No surprise really on The Emirates either, given there are 3 bigger grounds to pick in London already. What will be a real pisser is when they select West Ham's ground to justify all the public money that has gone into it, despite it being completely crap for football.
Hopefully by 2028 we won't just have had the North Stand rebuilt, and will have a new 20k Witton Lane stand ready to open in time to parade our 4th successive quadruple.
Everton's might never get finished, they still haven't got all the funding in place and if it got canned, they've got to pay to have the site put back as it was.
Construction is pretty advanced now though isn't it, and would it mean unfilling part of the docks they've built the stadium on. Maybe they could just get Coventry and Small Heath to ground share there instead.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/13/everton-football-club-new-stadium-bramley-moore-dock (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/13/everton-football-club-new-stadium-bramley-moore-dock)
Post by: Toronto Villa on November 16, 2022, 05:27:10 PM
Post by: olaftab on November 16, 2022, 05:39:00 PM
London Stadium as it's not a football stadium, Etihad for the same reason, Stadium of Light as it's close to St James Park and Casement Park as it's a shed.
Post by: eamonn on November 16, 2022, 06:25:29 PM
Quote
Everton added it was confident its overall finances were robust and that the stadium would be built on time.
A spokesman for Moshiri said he was “perplexed” by the Guardian’s questions about the club’s finances and suggested there was no public interest in analysing the club’s funding. He added that Everton was in rude financial health with access and relationships to a range of well-known lenders.
As evidence of the club’s robust finances, the owner also said that Everton had low borrowings – pointing to net debts of £58.2m to the end of June 2021.
That figure is correct and comes directly from the club’s accounts – but it is arguably not quite the full story as it masks the size of the owner’s contribution: arcane accounting standards mean that a further £248.2m in “loans” owed to Moshiri when the accounts were filed have been classified as “equity”.
Aren't we doing the same with NSWE? Converting their loans to equity?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 16, 2022, 06:25:56 PM
I would have thought that if there was any chance that England could play there (maybe in a semi final) then Croke Park would be a non starter?West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
I'd imagine that the draw would be set up so that England play at Wembley from the QF stage onwards if they progress.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 16, 2022, 06:26:42 PM
West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
Unless there is a drastic change in the near future, Northern Ireland will have to have one, so Belfast will be in there. The Rep of Ireland grounds are both in Dublin - isn't there a suitable ground in another part of the country so it could be shared out a bit?
Above all, does it mean that all 5 countries will qualify automatically?
I'm not convinced that Belfast has to have one or indeed that Ireland has to have 2 if there are only 10 venues although I'd imagine UEFA will be loath not to use the 3rd biggest stadium in Europe. Also Casement Park will only hold 34,500 and hasn't been built yet, and given the impasse at Stormont who knows when it will be.
Not sure what the situation is wrt the 5 hosts qualifying automatically. England plus the other 4 playing off for 2 spots would be fair compromise if need be.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 16, 2022, 06:27:11 PM
The shame about the Aviva is the tiny section behind one of the goals. Like the dip in tiers at Brighton's Amex stadium, makes it look a bit tinpot. Impressive structure from the outside though.
I think a capacity of 52,500 is about right given the size of Ireland and soccer and rugby not being the main sports here. I believe the dip at one end was required so as not to block the light on local (and presumably very expensive) houses. Does look a bit tinpot inside and on TV, but gives it a nice flowing design on the outside and stops it becoming just another oval stadium.
Post by: cdbearsfan on November 17, 2022, 12:00:28 AM
I would have thought that if there was any chance that England could play there (maybe in a semi final) then Croke Park would be a non starter?West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
I'd imagine that the draw would be set up so that England play at Wembley from the QF stage onwards if they progress.
Unless Wembley hosts at least three of the four Quarter-Finals, and both Semi-Finals, it's impossible to do that in 24 team tournament. You can arrange for England to stay at Wembley if they win their group but not if they finish second or as one of the best third place teams.
Post by: Dave P on November 17, 2022, 06:55:51 AM
All academic though as UEFA won’t give us the tournament after the fan problems in the Euros last year.
Post by: Pat Mustard on November 17, 2022, 07:50:05 AM
HS2 will be up and running by then which will surely make Villa Park an absolute shoe in to be chosen.
All academic though as UEFA won’t give us the tournament after the fan problems in the Euros last year.
We're pretty much guaranteed it from what I understand. There are no other confirmed bidders as yet, and it was a stitch up to give us this in return for UEFA backing Portugal/Spain for the 2030 World Cup bid.
Post by: chrisw1 on November 17, 2022, 09:17:03 AM
Correct, which makes Croke park untenable I feel.I would have thought that if there was any chance that England could play there (maybe in a semi final) then Croke Park would be a non starter?West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
I'd imagine that the draw would be set up so that England play at Wembley from the QF stage onwards if they progress.
Unless Wembley hosts at least three of the four Quarter-Finals, and both Semi-Finals, it's impossible to do that in 24 team tournament. You can arrange for England to stay at Wembley if they win their group but not if they finish second or as one of the best third place teams.
Post by: cdbearsfan on November 17, 2022, 09:28:28 AM
All academic though as UEFA won’t give us the tournament after the fan problems in the Euros last year.
It's between this bid and Turkey, and Turkey always bid and get rejected. Britain and Ireland will be hosting.
Post by: rooboy316 on November 17, 2022, 10:42:16 AM
What’s the hierarchy of sports in terms of popularity over there?The shame about the Aviva is the tiny section behind one of the goals. Like the dip in tiers at Brighton's Amex stadium, makes it look a bit tinpot. Impressive structure from the outside though.
I think a capacity of 52,500 is about right given the size of Ireland and soccer and rugby not being the main sports here. I believe the dip at one end was required so as not to block the light on local (and presumably very expensive) houses. Does look a bit tinpot inside and on TV, but gives it a nice flowing design on the outside and stops it becoming just another oval stadium.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on November 17, 2022, 11:57:32 AM
HS2 will be up and running by thenNot if Esther McVey has her way
Post by: eamonn on November 17, 2022, 12:00:46 PM
Football/soccer is probably number one in places with weak GAA/rugby teams (Sligo in the west for example) but generally would be well-followed across the board. Just not when it comes to the domestic league. Shamrock Rovers and Dundalk could likely hold their own financially in League One or Two but most of the remainder are living month to month.
Post by: Dogtanian on November 17, 2022, 12:13:59 PM
I presume BV means GAA is number one but even that depends on which part of the country you're talking about. Gaelic Football is generally more popular than Hurling (but my county doesn't have a football team because you're born with a hurley stick in your hand) and rugby will definitely be number one in large parts of the east and south (Munster).
Football/soccer is probably number one in places with weak GAA/rugby teams (Sligo in the west for example) but generally would be well-followed across the board. Just not when it comes to the domestic league. Shamrock Rovers and Dundalk could likely hold their own financially in League One or Two but most of the remainder are living month to month.
Well, let's at least hope they have good gynaecologists then.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 14, 2022, 01:58:35 PM
https://twitter.com/BuildsWeAre/status/1603018810214289409?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet (https://twitter.com/BuildsWeAre/status/1603018810214289409?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
Post by: paul_e on December 14, 2022, 02:06:53 PM
Some folks I've never heard of are saying approval is due next week;
https://twitter.com/BuildsWeAre/status/1603018810214289409?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet (https://twitter.com/BuildsWeAre/status/1603018810214289409?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
Seems reasonable given when the plans were submitted and when we are wanting to get started on the work.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 15, 2022, 05:09:14 PM
Some folks I've never heard of are saying approval is due next week;I think I'd heard something on the radio today saying it had been approved. Maybe I was wrong, but the redevelopment definitely got a mention.
https://twitter.com/BuildsWeAre/status/1603018810214289409?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet (https://twitter.com/BuildsWeAre/status/1603018810214289409?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
Post by: Flamingo Lane on December 15, 2022, 06:03:01 PM
Approval would seem to be a formality, as there have been pretty much no objections from any consultees, local residents included, and short of him signing off the report with a 'UTV' I'm not sure the officer's report could have been any more positive.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 18, 2022, 12:38:18 PM
The application is due to be considered by the city council's Planning Committee next Thursday, and is recommended for approval. The report is available to view now on the council's website.
Approval would seem to be a formality, as there have been pretty much no objections from any consultees, local residents included, and short of him signing off the report with a 'UTV' I'm not sure the officer's report could have been any more positive.
Can't see why there would be on that part of the ground really. Witton Road and Trinity Road would be a different matter I suppose.
Think it is an exciting development and a bit of a statement by the club.
Post by: Exeter 77 on December 22, 2022, 11:43:12 AM
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 22, 2022, 12:16:26 PM
Planning approved apparently.
Aston Villa today welcomed Birmingham City Council’s decision to grant planning permission for phase one of the Club’s redevelopment and expansion of Villa Park.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2022/december/22/aston-villa-welcomes-planning-approval-for-villa-park-redevelopment/
Post by: Drummond on December 22, 2022, 12:22:06 PM
Shows the ambition and commitment of the owners too. Hopefully any concerns anyone had will now be put to bed, what with the Emery appointment too.
Post by: manic-road on December 22, 2022, 12:37:55 PM
Post by: Ad@m on December 22, 2022, 12:45:46 PM
Post by: LukeJames on December 22, 2022, 12:49:47 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/gPyfcjp/north-stand.png) (https://ibb.co/gPyfcjp)
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 22, 2022, 12:50:12 PM
Has anyone seen any interior plans? All the images on that link are of the exterior which gives me hope they're contemplating a single tier monster....
https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/
(https://i.ibb.co/Bthfr5K/TELEMMGLPICT000306769352-trans-Nv-BQz-QNjv4-Bq1-LE-a-Mo-Z4j8b9y-BU3fk-F9y-Ku-C712-J-UPIVW5hslk-R4g.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bthfr5K)
Post by: tomd2103 on December 22, 2022, 01:28:43 PM
Post by: brontebilly on December 22, 2022, 02:09:26 PM
West ham, old trafford, Sunderland and the smaller dublin one would be my guess.
From an Irish perspective, I would say Casement Park then Croke Park are more likely to be cut than the Aviva.
Croke Park is a horrible place to play 'soccer'. Was tried before and the pitch is too big. End up with fans further away from the action.
Post by: brontebilly on December 22, 2022, 02:18:06 PM
The shame about the Aviva is the tiny section behind one of the goals. Like the dip in tiers at Brighton's Amex stadium, makes it look a bit tinpot. Impressive structure from the outside though.
I think the 'Aviva' is a dump inside. Can't recall which stand but the gradient on the upper deck (one nearer the sea) is incredibly steep and your knees will be nearly touching the ears of the person in front of you.
Surprised Thomond Park (Limerick) isnt in the shake up. The national soccer team did play a friendly or two there before and the rugby pitch dimensions are better for soccer than GAA.
Post by: cdbearsfan on December 22, 2022, 02:20:21 PM
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on December 22, 2022, 02:52:11 PM
I think there is an access point now, though when I recently parked to the side of the club shop there was a gate and it looked like it was seldom unlocked.
In any event, the plans look exciting and approval is another step forward. UTV.
Post by: London Villan on December 22, 2022, 03:03:12 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on December 22, 2022, 03:07:02 PM
Therefore, if anyone sees details in the plans regarding reconfiguration of the central LTR, please let me know
Post by: cdbearsfan on December 22, 2022, 03:09:44 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 22, 2022, 03:10:35 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 22, 2022, 03:11:40 PM
Post by: rjp on December 22, 2022, 03:17:42 PM
The video (at the end) suggests that the area behind the North Stand - the car park, club shop, etc. - will, in the future, have access to Witton Road, presumably both for vehicles and pedestrians.
I think there is an access point now, though when I recently parked to the side of the club shop there was a gate and it looked like it was seldom unlocked.
In any event, the plans look exciting and approval is another step forward. UTV.
I don't normally head that way but the only time I've known that gate to be unlocked was after playing Small Heath in the 5-1 and heading to Witton station after the game. The police sent everyone that way instead of Witton Lane to help segregation.
Post by: cdbearsfan on December 22, 2022, 03:28:35 PM
I think the new stand will open at the start of the 25-26 season.
Thanks.
Post by: eamonn on December 22, 2022, 04:06:17 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 22, 2022, 04:19:01 PM
I think the new stand will open at the start of the 25-26 season.
Thanks.
Not 2024 -2025 ? wont they start in the Summer and take a year or so ?
Post by: olaftab on December 22, 2022, 04:19:18 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 22, 2022, 04:25:54 PM
I think the new stand will open at the start of the 25-26 season.
Thanks.
Not 2024 -2025 ? wont they start in the Summer and take a year or so ?
No, the first year is just for blocking stuff off and making people's lives a misery, the work will actually start a year later.
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on December 22, 2022, 05:11:21 PM
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of next season.
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on December 22, 2022, 05:12:43 PM
From the FAQs on the website on the subject of when construction will start and how long it will take:
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of this season.
Post by: nigel on December 22, 2022, 05:25:16 PM
There's been rumours that we might get kicked out from our seats behind the dugout in order for the away staff to be better segregated from fans (it's caused problems in the past) and to make the area Premium Seating.
Therefore, if anyone sees details in the plans regarding reconfiguration of the central LTR, please let me know
My brother is Lower Trinity, behind dug out, and he was saying he’d heard that he was being moved.
These seats were to be corporate seating.
I’m seeing him later so might have a better answer
Post by: Meanwood Villa on December 22, 2022, 06:11:04 PM
Post by: KevinGage on December 22, 2022, 06:40:31 PM
But the approach and walkways from Witton station up to the ground looks impressive. Wembley Way vibes.
Post by: Ad@m on December 22, 2022, 08:48:39 PM
55 seconds into the video on the Official Site it shows it.
(https://i.ibb.co/gPyfcjp/north-stand.png) (https://ibb.co/gPyfcjp)
Bugger.
Post by: Ad@m on December 22, 2022, 08:49:52 PM
From the FAQs on the website on the subject of when construction will start and how long it will take:
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of next season.
24 months?!
We obviously love a Spurs comparison round here - they managed to build an entire stadium in 3 years so how does it take us 2 years to build one stand?!
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 22, 2022, 08:57:58 PM
From the FAQs on the website on the subject of when construction will start and how long it will take:
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of next season.
24 months?!
We obviously love a Spurs comparison round here - they managed to build an entire stadium in 3 years so how does it take us 2 years to build one stand?!
I guess part of the reason is that they could be working on all the site, all the time, whereas we'll be having to build around the rest of the ground and fit in with fixtures.
Post by: London Villan on December 22, 2022, 09:03:34 PM
Post by: Ad@m on December 22, 2022, 09:05:55 PM
From the FAQs on the website on the subject of when construction will start and how long it will take:
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of next season.
24 months?!
We obviously love a Spurs comparison round here - they managed to build an entire stadium in 3 years so how does it take us 2 years to build one stand?!
I guess part of the reason is that they could be working on all the site, all the time, whereas we'll be having to build around the rest of the ground and fit in with fixtures.
Working on all the site, all the time - you mean, whilst building it around a fully functioning Premier League stadium like White Hart Lane in the middle of a densely populated residential area?
The Spurs stadium was absolutely not a simple build. Expensive, sure. But not simple.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 22, 2022, 09:14:13 PM
Post by: amfy on December 22, 2022, 09:20:01 PM
From the FAQs on the website on the subject of when construction will start and how long it will take:
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of next season.
24 months?!
We obviously love a Spurs comparison round here - they managed to build an entire stadium in 3 years so how does it take us 2 years to build one stand?!
I guess part of the reason is that they could be working on all the site, all the time, whereas we'll be having to build around the rest of the ground and fit in with fixtures.
Working on all the site, all the time - you mean, whilst building it around a fully functioning Premier League stadium like White Hart Lane in the middle of a densely populated residential area?
The Spurs stadium was absolutely not a simple build. Expensive, sure. But not simple.
They didn’t play there during the build. We will have to shut down the build to allow safe access to the rest of the ground for every match day.
Post by: saunders_heroes on December 22, 2022, 09:25:06 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 22, 2022, 09:28:44 PM
I’m assuming that’s a brand new Witton Station that’s gonna be built as well?
The whole thing is dependent on transport being sorted so a revamped station is more than likely.
Post by: Ad@m on December 22, 2022, 09:51:04 PM
From the FAQs on the website on the subject of when construction will start and how long it will take:
"The Club will continue to work closely with all stakeholders to ensure the elements of the project, such as transport system and infrastructure works, are prioritised to ensure the best outcome for our fans, local community, the city and the wider region. Progress in these sectors will be key to confirming a timeframe and the sequencing of Villa Park works. The anticipated duration of construction is expected to last around 24 months."
I imagine - though don't know - that they will start after the end of next season.
24 months?!
We obviously love a Spurs comparison round here - they managed to build an entire stadium in 3 years so how does it take us 2 years to build one stand?!
I guess part of the reason is that they could be working on all the site, all the time, whereas we'll be having to build around the rest of the ground and fit in with fixtures.
Working on all the site, all the time - you mean, whilst building it around a fully functioning Premier League stadium like White Hart Lane in the middle of a densely populated residential area?
The Spurs stadium was absolutely not a simple build. Expensive, sure. But not simple.
They didn’t play there during the build. We will have to shut down the build to allow safe access to the rest of the ground for every match day.
Quote
The stadium was constructed in two main phases so that White Hart Lane could still be used in the 2016–17 season while construction was still in progress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tottenham_Hotspur_Stadium?wprov=sfla1
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 22, 2022, 10:01:18 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 22, 2022, 10:17:57 PM
The shame about the Aviva is the tiny section behind one of the goals. Like the dip in tiers at Brighton's Amex stadium, makes it look a bit tinpot. Impressive structure from the outside though.
I think the 'Aviva' is a dump inside. Can't recall which stand but the gradient on the upper deck (one nearer the sea) is incredibly steep and your knees will be nearly touching the ears of the person in front of you.
Surprised Thomond Park (Limerick) isnt in the shake up. The national soccer team did play a friendly or two there before and the rugby pitch dimensions are better for soccer than GAA.
Thomond Park is nowhere near 50,000 capacity is it and isn’t there standing there as well?
If it’s a joint UK and Ireland bid then they will surely have to have at least one stadium in each country? Guess it will also mean all 5 countries automatically qualifying?
If it’s 9 stadiums, I would guess Wembley, Principality Stadium, Hampden, Aviva Stadium, a Northern Irish stadium, St. James Park, Villa Park, Old Trafford / Etihad and Tottenham / Emirates.
Post by: olaftab on December 23, 2022, 12:20:41 AM
And what did they do for the next two years?The stadium was ready but it took two years to install those fill from bottom taps.
Post by: OCD on December 23, 2022, 11:10:13 AM
Post by: Ad@m on December 23, 2022, 01:10:29 PM
And what did they do for the next two years?
I was just simply pointing out that they couldn't work on 'all the site, all the time'.
Anyway, two years to build a single stand seems a bit excessive, even if the stand does look the mutts nutts (aside from the fact it's two tier of course).
Post by: paul_e on December 23, 2022, 01:57:12 PM
And what did they do for the next two years?
I was just simply pointing out that they couldn't work on 'all the site, all the time'.
Anyway, two years to build a single stand seems a bit excessive, even if the stand does look the mutts nutts (aside from the fact it's two tier of course).
It's not a single stand, there's loads of work being done on the trinity, a bit on the DE and the whole Villa Live and approach from the station a well.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 23, 2022, 02:52:57 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Post by: thick_mike on December 23, 2022, 03:03:24 PM
After the work is done I want the view outside of the stadium to look like thisView from the Witton End I guess, is that Aston Hall at the top there?
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Post by: Drummond on December 23, 2022, 03:05:13 PM
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 23, 2022, 03:13:20 PM
Post by: trinityoap on December 23, 2022, 03:34:02 PM
Post by: olaftab on December 23, 2022, 04:41:09 PM
After the work is done I want the view outside of the stadium to look like thisNo, because it will take ages to drill a tunnel through that to restore Expressway traffic in and out of city.
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Post by: 260475 on December 23, 2022, 07:22:43 PM
Would have been handy for Sunderland at home in 1975.
Good comment - like it - best game ever
Post by: Nunkin1965 on December 23, 2022, 07:57:49 PM
I was 8 and right at the front of the Holte End.Would have been handy for Sunderland at home in 1975.
Good comment - like it - best game ever
And was it a very hot day?
Post by: Scott Nielsen on December 24, 2022, 03:01:39 AM
After the work is done I want the view outside of the stadium to look like this
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Where is this? Hawaii? Mexico?
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 24, 2022, 06:55:42 AM
After the work is done I want the view outside of the stadium to look like this
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Where is this? Hawaii? Mexico?
That is Estadio BBVA home of CF Monterrey in Guadalupe, Mexico. And will be a host stadium during the World Cup in 2026.
Post by: Virgil Caine on December 24, 2022, 07:39:27 AM
After the work is done I want the view outside of the stadium to look like this
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Where is this? Hawaii? Mexico?
That is Estadio BBVA home of CF Monterrey in Guadalupe, Mexico. And will be a host stadium during the World Cup in 2026.
Nah, I reckon it’s Worcester City’s ground with them thar Malvern Hills in the background
Post by: algy on December 24, 2022, 07:59:09 AM
(https://media.fezza.net/gallery/o/5/104/Sampdoria-Roma-014.JPG)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/9f/88/209f88a21f4e2ddebb0b07d62adabfb7.jpg)
Post by: Chris Harte on December 24, 2022, 08:50:41 AM
Still think we missed a trick by not having big fuck off red brick towers in the corners, like Sampdoria but more impressive:I don't. I think it looks hideous. It's not even one of a kind as there are similar builds on the continent.
(https://media.fezza.net/gallery/o/5/104/Sampdoria-Roma-014.JPG)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/9f/88/209f88a21f4e2ddebb0b07d62adabfb7.jpg)
Post by: Lucky Eddie on December 24, 2022, 11:14:11 AM
Post by: cdbearsfan on December 24, 2022, 11:33:15 AM
After the work is done I want the view outside of the stadium to look like this
(https://i.ibb.co/6tWSTyP/1-C8-F8214-F085-4380-83-E9-78098-C47891-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tWSTyP)
Where is this? Hawaii? Mexico?
Lickey Hills.
Post by: wittonwarrior on December 24, 2022, 03:31:40 PM
Still think we missed a trick by not having big fuck off red brick towers in the corners, like Sampdoria but more impressive:
(https://media.fezza.net/gallery/o/5/104/Sampdoria-Roma-014.JPG)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/9f/88/209f88a21f4e2ddebb0b07d62adabfb7.jpg)
I've been to that stadium in Genoa and its just another Glasgow Rangers effort, nothing special .
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 24, 2022, 04:44:39 PM
Wasn't blown away with the frontage of the new stand when the initial designs came out. Still think there's room for improvement there, TBH.
But the approach and walkways from Witton station up to the ground looks impressive. Wembley Way vibes.
Same thoughts for me. Front of the new North will of course be upgrade on what it is replacing but it looks just like say the revamped main stand at Anfield.
However very impressed with the proposed walkway from the Tame academy site up to VP, making that pedestrianised for half a mile will change the whole feel of surrounding area.
When eventually the new stand is up and running people will really appreciate how small the existing structure is so that's why it will take a while to build.
I assume the logical plan is only half of next season will be played at significantly reduced capacity, then start of 2024 season we'll be back up to 42-43k with I assume the lower part opened first (same as we did for Holte End and Trinity) and then early part of 2025 season we'll finally hit 50k mark.
Post by: FatSam on December 25, 2022, 12:32:05 AM
Still think we missed a trick by not having big fuck off red brick towers in the corners, like Sampdoria but more impressive:That’s my favourite stadium. For a completely re-built ground, it’s as far from an identikit stadium as is possible.
(https://media.fezza.net/gallery/o/5/104/Sampdoria-Roma-014.JPG)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/9f/88/209f88a21f4e2ddebb0b07d62adabfb7.jpg)
Post by: Rico on December 26, 2022, 09:18:56 AM
Came across this image whilst perusing the interweb. Interestingly it shows plans to increase the capacity to 60k. Not sure how valid they are, but exciting none the less.
Post by: London Villan on December 26, 2022, 09:37:24 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/56Hbqjb/A273-FC43-FC87-462-B-912-D-CA8-F9-B5-CA980.jpg) (https://ibb.co/56Hbqjb)
(https://i.ibb.co/MhXGF32/1-C6-B7-EEF-612-F-4-F9-C-95-AD-A3-C9628-BD98-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MhXGF32)
Post by: The Edge on December 26, 2022, 09:41:10 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/prYznKy/Screenshot-2022-12-25-10-38-41.png) (https://ibb.co/prYznKy)That image plays havoc with my OCD. They really must move the Trinity Rd over a bit to allow the Holte and the Trinity to be squared off.
Came across this image whilst perusing the interweb. Interestingly it shows plans to increase the capacity to 60k. Not sure how valid they are, but exciting none the less.
Post by: Villan82 on December 30, 2022, 01:54:48 PM
Those plans orginate from the lerner days, but the middle option is closest to whats being built. These are from the same time.
(https://i.ibb.co/56Hbqjb/A273-FC43-FC87-462-B-912-D-CA8-F9-B5-CA980.jpg) (https://ibb.co/56Hbqjb)
(https://i.ibb.co/MhXGF32/1-C6-B7-EEF-612-F-4-F9-C-95-AD-A3-C9628-BD98-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MhXGF32)
There is something about that image that just screams 'Lerner'. When I clicked on the image I could almost hear the old AVTV youtube music from about 2013/2014 and imagine a chequered claret and blue aesthetic. Surprised, also, how similar it would have looked to the new Trinity.
What we have ended up with will look much better in mu humble opinion.
When i look at old photos of Villa Park I can never understand why the 1960s era Witton Lane Stand was smaller than the original stand on that side. Does anybody know or is it just that the original looked bigger than it was?
Post by: London Villan on December 30, 2022, 02:04:53 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 30, 2022, 02:09:09 PM
The 60s witton lane was pretty much the same stand that was built in 1897, but with a flat roof. Even the entrances to the seats were in the same places until the lower tier was replaced after it was bodged by ellis.
The one place I never sat until it was rebuilt. Had a season ticket there one year in the early 2000's until the dickhead in front took issue with a private conversation about the qualities Tore Andre Flo as he was tearing us apart at it ended in a four man brawl including my brother and his son.
Never liked it in there.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 30, 2022, 02:10:56 PM
The 60s witton lane was pretty much the same stand that was built in 1897, but with a flat roof. Even the entrances to the seats were in the same places until the lower tier was replaced after it was bodged by ellis.
I always thought it was a new stand and the original one was two tier. I'd been told the mkII version was smaller because it was all we could afford.
Post by: Nev on December 30, 2022, 02:38:09 PM
The 60s witton lane was pretty much the same stand that was built in 1897, but with a flat roof. Even the entrances to the seats were in the same places until the lower tier was replaced after it was bodged by ellis.
I always thought it was a new stand and the original one was two tier. I'd been told the mkII version was smaller because it was all we could afford.
The original was built on top of a terraced bank from what I recall from pictures and Inglis' various books and with it's vaulted roof would appear much bigger than when that flat thing was plonked on top.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 30, 2022, 02:40:28 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 30, 2022, 02:45:27 PM
Post by: Villan82 on December 30, 2022, 03:04:04 PM
The 60s witton lane was pretty much the same stand that was built in 1897, but with a flat roof. Even the entrances to the seats were in the same places until the lower tier was replaced after it was bodged by ellis.
I always thought it was a new stand and the original one was two tier. I'd been told the mkII version was smaller because it was all we could afford.
Yes, that is what I thought. The photos of the original show a two tier stand. It being smaller after the rebuild for financial reasons makes sense.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 30, 2022, 03:09:32 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 30, 2022, 03:16:19 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/CmVHNfF/F76-AFDB7-1-C27-4-C71-B8-C1-3-AEE94-D3-FC27.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CmVHNfF)The 60s witton lane was pretty much the same stand that was built in 1897, but with a flat roof. Even the entrances to the seats were in the same places until the lower tier was replaced after it was bodged by ellis.
I always thought it was a new stand and the original one was two tier. I'd been told the mkII version was smaller because it was all we could afford.
Yes, that is what I thought. The photos of the original show a two tier stand. It being smaller after the rebuild for financial reasons makes sense.
Image of the construction of the witton in the 60s - done on the cheap.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 30, 2022, 04:19:35 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 30, 2022, 04:25:08 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 30, 2022, 04:32:24 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on December 30, 2022, 04:38:24 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 30, 2022, 04:41:28 PM
Post by: darren woolley on December 30, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
Post by: CT Villan on December 30, 2022, 05:06:53 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 30, 2022, 05:18:14 PM
The one and only time I sat in the Witton was for the Super Cup Final 2nd leg in my teens. Great night !
That was the first game I stood on the Holte. Before that we'd always been in the seats.
Post by: Pete3206 on December 30, 2022, 06:10:07 PM
i remember it having some random royal blue seats at the front in the middle in the 80s ?
Yes, there was a small number of blue plastic seats in amongst the rest which were wooden. Me and my Dad had STs there
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 30, 2022, 06:26:36 PM
Post by: john e on December 30, 2022, 06:30:31 PM
oh what lovely times they were
Post by: Meanwood Villa on December 30, 2022, 06:33:56 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 30, 2022, 06:38:58 PM
I got chased out of the Witton by Rangers fans,
oh what lovely times they were
My uncle was at it and he said it was the most scared he's been at a football match. As I was only 6 I wasn't allowed to go.
I recently read a thread on one of their forums about that game. The general consensus seems to be that the level of violence that day was the worst on all their travels home and abroad, which is probably saying something. They also had a grudging respect for the Villa fans as they reckoned the Brummies had more fight in them than say, the Geordies and the Mancs.
Post by: algy on December 30, 2022, 07:00:59 PM
Anyway, I was only like 6 when we were in the Witton Lane stand so don't remember that so well, but I hated the new stand with a passion when we were sitting there. On the opposite side (in both senses), I love the upper Trinity. Have a massive soft spot for the North Stand too - best view in the ground.
Post by: john e on December 30, 2022, 07:06:10 PM
I got chased out of the Witton by Rangers fans,
oh what lovely times they were
My uncle was at it and he said it was the most scared he's been at a football match. As I was only 6 I wasn't allowed to go.
I recently read a thread on one of their forums about that game. The general consensus seems to be that the level of violence that day was the worst on all their travels home and abroad, which is probably saying something. They also had a grudging respect for the Villa fans as they reckoned the Brummies had more fight in them than say, the Geordies and the Mancs.
Not me I’m afraid
I was a young teenager shitting my pants
Post by: Mellin on December 30, 2022, 07:34:38 PM
Question has to be though, with the odd game here and there posted about, who sits there full time and what did they do wrong in a previous life?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 30, 2022, 07:41:10 PM
On the top level, in what later became the away section, in line with Scholes as he scored that (admittedly brilliant) volley off the crossbar.
On the bottom level, front row slap bang in line with Wilfred Bouma as he broke his leg. That wasn't nice.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 30, 2022, 07:45:30 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 30, 2022, 07:52:59 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 30, 2022, 09:24:17 PM
I got chased out of the Witton by Rangers fans,
oh what lovely times they were
My uncle was at it and he said it was the most scared he's been at a football match. As I was only 6 I wasn't allowed to go.
I recently read a thread on one of their forums about that game. The general consensus seems to be that the level of violence that day was the worst on all their travels home and abroad, which is probably saying something. They also had a grudging respect for the Villa fans as they reckoned the Brummies had more fight in them than say, the Geordies and the Mancs.
Not me I’m afraid
I was a young teenager shitting my pants
Met an older Glaswegian couple on holiday a few years ago and he asked if I knew about it. I said I did as my Dad was there and has talked about over the years.
He said they were marched into town after the game was abandoned and put on buses back to Glasgow. The drivers were then instructed to drive back to where they had come from without stopping. I'm sure thecoaches going back to Scotland weren't smelling too clever by the time they got back.
Post by: Oklahoma on December 30, 2022, 10:11:29 PM
Has there been any decent solution to adding capacity to the DE (or Holte) or is the road(s) too much of an obstacle?
Post by: tomd2103 on December 30, 2022, 10:27:23 PM
Post by: Ad@m on December 31, 2022, 11:26:12 AM
Has there been any decent solution to adding capacity to the DE (or Holte) or is the road(s) too much of an obstacle?
I thought it was less the road (you can just build over it like we did with the Trinity, although that scuppers any plans to get a decent sized concourse) but more the light issues on the houses behind the stand.
For us to get planning permission to extend the Witton I'd imagine those houses would have to go and I'm not sure I like the idea of a Liverpool-style campaign to evict people who live next to the ground.
Post by: algy on December 31, 2022, 12:27:21 PM
I agree, we should be doing whatever we can to ingratiate ourselves with the local people, not turf them out of their homes.Has there been any decent solution to adding capacity to the DE (or Holte) or is the road(s) too much of an obstacle?
I thought it was less the road (you can just build over it like we did with the Trinity, although that scuppers any plans to get a decent sized concourse) but more the light issues on the houses behind the stand.
For us to get planning permission to extend the Wotton I'd imagine those houses would have to go and I'm not sure I like the idea of a Liverpool-stylr campaign to evict people who live next to the ground.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on December 31, 2022, 01:04:17 PM
We have been for many yearsI agree, we should be doing whatever we can to ingratiate ourselves with the local people, not turf them out of their homes.Has there been any decent solution to adding capacity to the DE (or Holte) or is the road(s) too much of an obstacle?
I thought it was less the road (you can just build over it like we did with the Trinity, although that scuppers any plans to get a decent sized concourse) but more the light issues on the houses behind the stand.
For us to get planning permission to extend the Wotton I'd imagine those houses would have to go and I'm not sure I like the idea of a Liverpool-stylr campaign to evict people who live next to the ground.
Post by: Villan82 on December 31, 2022, 01:25:27 PM
The current Witton Lane stand is about the same height as the current North Stand but isn't deep which impacts its capacity and concourses.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 31, 2022, 01:47:57 PM
Could it be that simple? If it's the light to the houses that is the issue and not the road then you would think there would be an easy solution. Build a much deeper stand, over the road, but at a slightly lower height to the other stands? Maybe even a large single tier to match the new North and Trinity? Might add a couple of thousand seats and would certainly improve the concourses and hospitality offering.
The current Witton Lane stand is about the same height as the current North Stand but isn't deep which impacts its capacity and concourses.
I think it'd be much more complicated than that - you might not be making it higher, but building closer to the houses will still have an impact on light.
Also, single tier stand with improved hospitality are two things that don't go together, I suspect.
Post by: Pat Mustard on December 31, 2022, 03:41:50 PM
Beyond that there wouldn’t be much scope for further increases unless we bought up the Holte Road houses and re-routed Witton Lane. Presumably that would cost an absolute fortune and would add another 6-7k. It would only really have made sense to do that if we were planning a Spurs style re-build by moving the whole ground sideways away from the cut off corner by the park.
Post by: IFWaters on January 02, 2023, 08:35:40 AM
Post by: Kevin Dawson on January 02, 2023, 09:31:42 AM
Post by: Nii Lamptey on January 02, 2023, 10:45:22 AM
Once the Trinity was finished, Villa wanted the tv cameras moved from that stand to Witton Lane so that the new stand formed the backdrop on the telly. We each received letters asking us to relocate as they were putting the cameras in our seats. I’m now on the opposite side, but whenever I see Villa on the telly, the view is pretty much from my old seat! 😉
Post by: Flin5tone on January 02, 2023, 11:24:34 AM
Post by: eamonn on January 02, 2023, 11:43:15 AM
Post by: Axl Rose on January 02, 2023, 11:44:26 AM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 02, 2023, 11:59:55 AM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
Doubt he's seen 'Field of Dreams' tbf, the "Theatre of Dreams" is probably more his thing.
Post by: Flin5tone on January 02, 2023, 07:49:57 PM
This is the club's fault entirely for such ridiculous pricing. Nobody sees wolves as a huge derby and it's January on a Wednesday night. They are pricing people out
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 02, 2023, 07:51:22 PM
Post by: saunders_heroes on January 02, 2023, 08:13:09 PM
Post by: Zouch Villa on January 02, 2023, 08:19:16 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on January 02, 2023, 08:23:37 PM
How anyone can complain about our attendances in this day and age is beyond me. We’ve never had average attendances this high in my lifetime, and Christ I’m getting old.
http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/astv.htm
Post by: eamonn on January 02, 2023, 08:26:29 PM
I take it Wilma’s been blowing Barney again?
Barney Coke
Post by: Chris Harte on January 02, 2023, 08:49:03 PM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seatsWolves isn't a local derby. Except to them.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 02, 2023, 08:49:49 PM
Post by: coreyfeldman on January 02, 2023, 09:06:45 PM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
Complaining about the same non-issue on 2 separate threads as well.
Obviously the owners are planning for the team to improve and finish eventually in European places which will bring bigger crowds to villa Park. Ticket pricing is a tricky issue but from what I can tell we have pretty average ticket prices, despite the increase in the summer.
Let's see what the attendance is on Wednesday shall we - if its not a sell out it won't be by much, and Wolves are not the blues - most villa fans don't really give a shit about wolves anyway. I even seem yo remember you saying exactly the same thing about Leicester last season.
*nb you say the same thing constantly so not sure why I'd be surprised
Post by: WassallVillain on January 02, 2023, 10:46:14 PM
Post by: Scratchins on January 03, 2023, 08:08:07 AM
Post by: AV82EC on January 03, 2023, 08:23:24 AM
1564 left atm
So with late purchases etc we're still probably looking at over 41,000. Time for some more pearl clutching Fred.
Post by: Abbeyfealeavfc on January 03, 2023, 08:57:21 AM
Don’t worry Fred. With the increased capacity we’ll sell out enough to justify the expenditure. On the occasions we don’t we’ll just do what all the others do and have a give away of tickets to keep up the ground full signs. I think the owners know what they’re doing.
Spurs are a good example of this!
I wonder if there’s a Tottenham version of our flinStone with ‘bums on seats’ worry lines?
Post by: Scratchins on January 03, 2023, 09:05:46 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 03, 2023, 10:16:04 AM
Post by: Drummond on January 03, 2023, 10:21:25 AM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
Yep, and it will only get worse the better we get.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on January 03, 2023, 10:34:47 AM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
Yep, and it will only get worse the better we get.
The only way around it is to get a season ticket. Not doable for many for a number of reasons but their marketing strategy is creating the demand to fill a 50,000 stadium. A bit tough on Chico who might not be able to attend all home games. If I was in a similar position living down London I would seriously look at a ST between two or three of you and you take it in turns for each game.
Post by: Drummond on January 03, 2023, 10:41:53 AM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
Yep, and it will only get worse the better we get.
The only way around it is to get a season ticket. Not doable for many for a number of reasons but their marketing strategy is creating the demand to fill a 50,000 stadium. A bit tough on Chico who might not be able to attend all home games. If I was in a similar position living down London I would seriously look at a ST between two or three of you and you take it in turns for each game.
Yep, I'm on the waiting list with my lad!
Post by: Flin5tone on January 03, 2023, 12:58:03 PM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
We've barely sold any more overnight. One block I have been checking on ,not a single seat has been sold.
With recent form + local derby the club surely must be expecting to sell out these games with a huge capacity increase on the way.
The pricing for just after Christmas on a Wednesday night is ridiculous and the club have made a HUGE error .
I still say the 20k should be snapping those up though, if of course they really exist.
Post by: Towser on January 03, 2023, 01:00:10 PM
It is not a local derbyLoads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
We've barely sold any more overnight. One block I have been checking on ,not a single seat has been sold.
With recent form + local derby the club surely must be expecting to sell out these games with a huge capacity increase on the way.
The pricing for just after Christmas on a Wednesday night is ridiculous and the club have made a HUGE error .
I still say the 20k should be snapping those up though, if of course they really exist.
Post by: LeeB on January 03, 2023, 01:26:56 PM
It is not a local derbyLoads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
We've barely sold any more overnight. One block I have been checking on ,not a single seat has been sold.
With recent form + local derby the club surely must be expecting to sell out these games with a huge capacity increase on the way.
The pricing for just after Christmas on a Wednesday night is ridiculous and the club have made a HUGE error .
I still say the 20k should be snapping those up though, if of course they really exist.
Agreed, they're not close and they're not rivals. Although they are miles bigger than either of those teams that are our real derbies.
Post by: paul_e on January 03, 2023, 02:07:10 PM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
We've barely sold any more overnight. One block I have been checking on ,not a single seat has been sold.
With recent form + local derby the club surely must be expecting to sell out these games with a huge capacity increase on the way.
The pricing for just after Christmas on a Wednesday night is ridiculous and the club have made a HUGE error .
I still say the 20k should be snapping those up though, if of course they really exist.
People weren't buying tickets for a football game in the middle of the night, how shocking!
As for watching a specific block and keeping a count of how many tickets are available in it that strikes me as a bit sad really, have you not got anything else to do with your time than look for things to moan about?
Post by: Flin5tone on January 03, 2023, 02:34:34 PM
I've been very busy of late
Post by: Drummond on January 03, 2023, 03:01:46 PM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
We've barely sold any more overnight. One block I have been checking on ,not a single seat has been sold.
With recent form + local derby the club surely must be expecting to sell out these games with a huge capacity increase on the way.
The pricing for just after Christmas on a Wednesday night is ridiculous and the club have made a HUGE error .
I still say the 20k should be snapping those up though, if of course they really exist.
The ticketing system for us and a lot of other clubs hasn't been working and went down for a few hours this morning. Check again now.
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 03, 2023, 03:06:43 PM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seats
We'll sell out, don't you worry, Freddie boy
We've barely sold any more overnight. One block I have been checking on ,not a single seat has been sold.
With recent form + local derby the club surely must be expecting to sell out these games with a huge capacity increase on the way.
The pricing for just after Christmas on a Wednesday night is ridiculous and the club have made a HUGE error .
I still say the 20k should be snapping those up though, if of course they really exist.
why the fuck are you so obsessed with this? Go or don't go. That's the choice everyone has based on any number of factors. What is it any business of yours if we get 42k or any number less than that?
Post by: chrisw1 on January 03, 2023, 03:27:15 PM
There's 2,262 tickets left. They'll sell a few of them but I think the club have got this one wrong.
Post by: paul_e on January 03, 2023, 03:45:41 PM
Early January, cold as fuck and train strikes are all a big part of things and would apply regardless of the pricing. Add the prices as well and it's hardly a surprise that we might end up with 5-6% unsold. As Chris says they've probably got the pricing wrong but it's not an exact science and, as much has we'd all like it to be cheaper, the tickets are still on par with the rest of the league. I suspect we'll sell a fair few more and have an official attendance over 41000 for it.
Either way none of that changes the fact that there's a massive waiting list or that we could easily sell another 6-7000 season tickets to fill the new stand.
Post by: john e on January 03, 2023, 03:49:45 PM
all the same we should be selling out this game I’m actually surprised if we don’t
Post by: maidstonevillain on January 03, 2023, 03:51:39 PM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
And Stevenage.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 03, 2023, 04:01:17 PM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
And Stevenage.
I’m content with me and the babby for £30.
Post by: paul_e on January 03, 2023, 04:19:05 PM
there’s a lot of factors and legitimate excuses why people aren’t buying the remaining tickets
all the same we should be selling out this game I’m actually surprised if we don’t
I think once you get down to the last 1000 or so they're often hard to sell because it tends to be single seats which are a tough sell for families, etc.
Post by: Clampy on January 03, 2023, 05:16:19 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on January 03, 2023, 05:31:23 PM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
And Stevenage.
I’m content with me and the babby for £30.
I agree. That is good. No complaints with that.
When I earlier clicked on the ticket site, it was showing "normal prices".
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 03, 2023, 05:49:45 PM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
And Stevenage.
I’m content with me and the babby for £30.
I agree. That is good. No complaints with that.
When I earlier clicked on the ticket site, it was showing "normal prices".
Fair enough. Just in case it helps, me and the lad are upstairs in the Holte, £20 for me, £10 for him. K5 I think.
Post by: Pete3206 on January 03, 2023, 10:10:08 PM
Post by: Rory on January 04, 2023, 03:09:46 AM
Loads of availability for wolves , you do wonder if we can't sell out for a local derby will we often end up with 7000 empty seatsWolves isn't a local derby. Except to them.
100%. I give them about as much thought as I give Stoke.
Post by: Rory on January 04, 2023, 03:28:37 AM
there’s a lot of factors and legitimate excuses why people aren’t buying the remaining tickets
all the same we should be selling out this game I’m actually surprised if we don’t
I think once you get down to the last 1000 or so they're often hard to sell because it tends to be single seats which are a tough sell for families, etc.
Yeah, as someone who goes to 5-10 games a season based on whether I can afford paying the equivalent of the ticket in public transport costs (I live in the Shires, naturally) it can be tough to find seats together.
Plus, you need to factor in the opposition. Wolves aren't a 'glamour' fixture, aren't a derby, aren't a cuddly Blackburn, but judging from how much their fans seem to think about us, I still risk being ambushed and beaten up with a frozen faggot or platform shoe.
And if we win? We get the thrill of beating... oh yeah, Wolves. The highlight of my hour.
Risk/reward.
Post by: Flin5tone on January 04, 2023, 07:29:18 AM
If the inflated waiting list aren't interested now then will they and current season care holders be that fussed when there's a bigger capacity/no need to have a season ticket as you'll be able to walk up and pay on the day for 90% of matches?
We can use all the excuses in the world but facts are fact and it's something the club need to have a think about
Post by: JD on January 04, 2023, 07:41:37 AM
Post by: oldtimernow on January 04, 2023, 08:10:25 AM
Ticket prices for Wolves - and Leicester- are a piss take.
And Stevenage.
I’m content with me and the babby for £30.
I agree. That is good. No complaints with that.
When I earlier clicked on the ticket site, it was showing "normal prices".
Fair enough. Just in case it helps, me and the lad are upstairs in the Holte, £20 for me, £10 for him. K5 I think.
Does that mean that when the lad who says £5 to look after the car for you mister you can say ok but only if you come to the match with me 🤔
Post by: amfy on January 04, 2023, 09:32:18 AM
I understand all the above and I certainly would not be paying tonight's prices if I didn't have a season ticket but if we are extending the capacity and many games being on a sunday/midweek we can expect 7,000 empty seats and this is when things are looking rosey at the football club.
If the inflated waiting list aren't interested now then will they and current season care holders be that fussed when there's a bigger capacity/no need to have a season ticket as you'll be able to walk up and pay on the day for 90% of matches?
We can use all the excuses in the world but facts are fact and it's something the club need to have a think about
I have a season ticket and won’t be there tonight because it’s just not practical for me to be taking time off work to attend so soon after Christmas, especially as I’ll also need to take time off to get to the Leeds game next Friday. These evening kick offs are harder for fans who live further away - whether you have a season ticket or not.
There is a clear impact of evening kick offs on ‘walk up’ sales, but it doesn’t necessarily knock on to the season ticket waiting list to the same extent. People will get a season ticket knowing they won’t get to all the games. I do…..but obviously match by match sales are only of those who can actually get there. The two things aren’t the same.
The waiting list definitely has some people on it who won’t take up the place when it comes, but I know enough ‘actual people’ on it to know that it exists and is substantial.
That said - again annoying that The Holte is fully sold out and our 2 Lower Holte tickets won’t be put on sale because there are seats in other areas. I think they should re-sell on a stand by stand basis because there are people who will go if there are tickets in the same stand as friends or family, that might not buy otherwise.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 04, 2023, 10:13:09 AM
There is a clear impact of evening kick offs on ‘walk up’ sales, but it doesn’t necessarily knock on to the season ticket waiting list to the same extent. People will get a season ticket knowing they won’t get to all the games. I do…..but obviously match by match sales are only of those who can actually get there. The two things aren’t the same.
Absolutely this, and this is the bit Flint5tone constantly misses.
Failing to sell 42,000 every single week does not have anything to do with how many people are on the ST waiting list. There are always people who can't go to matches despite having a season ticket - in my last season with one, i missed more games than i went to, due to work commitments plus some family stuff.
If you're a ST holder and you're not at a match, you are still counted in the attendance figure. If you're not a ST holder but are on the list, you're in a position where you don't have to go to matches which are awkward / too expensive / whatever for you.
It's really not as simple as "that means 7,000 empty seats", it doesn't survive the briefest of examinations.
On top of that - they're pouring £100m into stadium improvements and enlargement - why would they bother doing that if they weren't sure we could fill a bigger ground on a regular basis? It's all very well to bang on about wanting the money from the expanded corporates etc but that's going to take decades to earn back the money they'd save by not spending the £100m in the first place.
It's a simplistic argument which doesn't survive the briefest application of logic, which is why there's only one person making it - in a fractious, argumentative, non consensual place like this, where if we won the Champions League, within weeks there'd be identifiable factions squabbling about how we did it, you've managed to unite the entire site against your argument.
Genuine question - has that ever happened before? Other than that neo nazi teenager 10 years ago?
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 04, 2023, 10:22:02 AM
Post by: Clampy on January 04, 2023, 10:27:05 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2023, 10:40:08 AM
Post by: exigo on January 04, 2023, 10:40:13 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2023, 10:42:11 AM
Post by: martyn ellis on January 04, 2023, 10:46:33 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2023, 10:50:38 AM
Maybe not the right thread (someone tell me where best to place it) but I have been a ST holder for many years, but this year has been ridiculous re my ability to get to games from London. A combination of Evening Kick Offs, the World Cup, disrupted train services and a host of other stuff, has limited my attendance to about 4 games this season. Selling my ticket on is not much of an option as you end up with a fraction of the ticket price and it's not worth the hassle. There must be others in my position as I see plenty of Villa shirts at Euston when there is a regular kick off time. I'm not currently thinking of giving up my ST, but it's certainly been on my mind recently. 7,000 empty seats for Wolves does not surprise me, as there are plenty of devoted fans who don't live on VP's doorstep.Selling your ticket on is a click of a button and well worth it. Obviously it only applies to sold out or nearly sold out games, but I've never had any problem when I've sold a ticket back to the club, it couldn't be easier.
Post by: Flin5tone on January 04, 2023, 11:24:31 AM
If we can't sell out against Wolves when we are in form and a real feel good factor around then how will we do with a 50,000 seater stadium , that's all I'm saying . We could often have 10,000 empty seats when the supply and demand weakens and there's no real need to be a season ticket holder or buy in advance.
We've got s very strong base but the support can't be taken for granted.
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 04, 2023, 11:25:55 AM
Also there were plenty of empty seats on display at Arsenal last night if you looked closely, and they are top of the fucking league!
Post by: Flin5tone on January 04, 2023, 11:59:04 AM
Post by: luke95 on January 04, 2023, 12:22:30 PM
I understand all of the above but it's no different to other big clubs in the league all seemed packed to the rafters last night.think you're underestimating the effect the train strike has had on tonights game tbh, if trains were running or it were a Satday game it would've sold out.
If we can't sell out against Wolves when we are in form and a real feel good factor around then how will we do with a 50,000 seater stadium , that's all I'm saying . We could often have 10,000 empty seats when the supply and demand weakens and there's no real need to be a season ticket holder or buy in advance.
We've got s very strong base but the support can't be taken for granted.
It'll be a ball ache to get from one side of Brum to other tonight let alone those who travel from further afield.
Post by: Risso on January 04, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
I understand all of the above but it's no different to other big clubs in the league all seemed packed to the rafters last night.think you're underestimating the effect the train strike has had on tonights game tbh, if trains were running or it were a Satday game it would've sold out.
If we can't sell out against Wolves when we are in form and a real feel good factor around then how will we do with a 50,000 seater stadium , that's all I'm saying . We could often have 10,000 empty seats when the supply and demand weakens and there's no real need to be a season ticket holder or buy in advance.
We've got s very strong base but the support can't be taken for granted.
It'll be a ball ache to get from one side of Brum to other tonight let alone those who travel from further afield.
Also it's expensive, and January's a shit month for money for everybody. Plus all the schools have just gone back.
Post by: AV82EC on January 04, 2023, 12:30:41 PM
Post by: martyn ellis on January 04, 2023, 12:31:10 PM
Agree Chris W; just loading up my moaning session with a bit extra. Not really a problem but my point is the difficulty of actually getting to and from games from a distance. Attending Villa park is still, after many years, one of my 'joys' and you can't beat being there. Tonight I can't even see the game on tv. But your point is well made.Maybe not the right thread (someone tell me where best to place it) but I have been a ST holder for many years, but this year has been ridiculous re my ability to get to games from London. A combination of Evening Kick Offs, the World Cup, disrupted train services and a host of other stuff, has limited my attendance to about 4 games this season. Selling my ticket on is not much of an option as you end up with a fraction of the ticket price and it's not worth the hassle. There must be others in my position as I see plenty of Villa shirts at Euston when there is a regular kick off time. I'm not currently thinking of giving up my ST, but it's certainly been on my mind recently. 7,000 empty seats for Wolves does not surprise me, as there are plenty of devoted fans who don't live on VP's doorstep.Selling your ticket on is a click of a button and well worth it. Obviously it only applies to sold out or nearly sold out games, but I've never had any problem when I've sold a ticket back to the club, it couldn't be easier.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 04, 2023, 12:31:35 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 04, 2023, 12:50:17 PM
I understand all of the above but it's no different to other big clubs in the league all seemed packed to the rafters last night.think you're underestimating the effect the train strike has had on tonights game tbh, if trains were running or it were a Satday game it would've sold out.
If we can't sell out against Wolves when we are in form and a real feel good factor around then how will we do with a 50,000 seater stadium , that's all I'm saying . We could often have 10,000 empty seats when the supply and demand weakens and there's no real need to be a season ticket holder or buy in advance.
We've got s very strong base but the support can't be taken for granted.
It'll be a ball ache to get from one side of Brum to other tonight let alone those who travel from further afield.
Also it's expensive, and January's a shit month for money for everybody. Plus all the schools have just gone back.
The schools are another big one. It's hard enough getting kids out of bed for the first couple of days back after Christmas at the best of times, never mind if they haven't gone to bed till nearly midnight which will be the case today.
Post by: paul_e on January 04, 2023, 12:54:49 PM
With the travel disruption etc I doubt paying supporters would be annoyed if the club gave tickets out to those local schools,churches,mosques,support groups etc It would do no harm and give those in the local area who wouldn't normally go a chance to see what it's like and may well be gripped forever .
You can't easily do that when the seats are scattered across multiple stands and sections in single or double seats.
I understand all of the above but it's no different to other big clubs in the league all seemed packed to the rafters last night.
If we can't sell out against Wolves when we are in form and a real feel good factor around then how will we do with a 50,000 seater stadium , that's all I'm saying . We could often have 10,000 empty seats when the supply and demand weakens and there's no real need to be a season ticket holder or buy in advance.
We've got s very strong base but the support can't be taken for granted.
You really don't understand the above because you keep making the same argument that has already been refuted. A waiting list for season tickets doesn't mean that there is automatically a market for normal tickets, you can't keep comparing the 2 because it's just not how it works, you've been told this many times and yet still keep pushing the 7000 empty seats (although you've upped to 10000 for this post) line, it's a number you've made up with absolutely nothing to back it up because you refuse to listen to people disagreeing with you.
Post by: exigo on January 04, 2023, 01:15:08 PM
Maybe not the right thread (someone tell me where best to place it) but I have been a ST holder for many years, but this year has been ridiculous re my ability to get to games from London. A combination of Evening Kick Offs, the World Cup, disrupted train services and a host of other stuff, has limited my attendance to about 4 games this season. Selling my ticket on is not much of an option as you end up with a fraction of the ticket price and it's not worth the hassle. There must be others in my position as I see plenty of Villa shirts at Euston when there is a regular kick off time. I'm not currently thinking of giving up my ST, but it's certainly been on my mind recently. 7,000 empty seats for Wolves does not surprise me, as there are plenty of devoted fans who don't live on VP's doorstep.
Are you in the London Lions? Loads of us in the same boat; but there's always ways we make it easier – lift shares, two-together rail discounts etc. Drop me a DM if you like, and I can put you in contact with the relevant North/East/South/West London chairman.
Post by: Drummond on January 04, 2023, 01:16:33 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on January 04, 2023, 01:20:18 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 04, 2023, 01:28:17 PM
I know, but you've still only have had to been to one game since Di Matteo was manager.
Oh I know, but if you go to the website it doesn't, unless you've got that history and are logged in, show that there is any availability.
Post by: amfy on January 04, 2023, 01:30:51 PM
I know, but you've still only have had to been to one game since Di Matteo was manager.
Been to one game on your own reference.
Many occasional attenders go with a ticket passed on from a mate who can’t go.
For most games you can set up your own reference if you want to buy, but not this one.
Post by: Hookeysmith on January 04, 2023, 01:35:21 PM
Quote
If you're a ST holder and you're not at a match, you are still counted in the attendance figure
Technically there are 2 attendance figures recorded
Tickets sold (whether folk turn up or not - which is known before KO) - for the tax mans benefit
Attendees (footfall through the turnstiles) - this is for H&S reasons and in case of any emergency.
Some of the empty seats seen on TV games (at VP and others) are caused, usually 2nd half by piss heads who have paid to watch the game but instead stand by a tv and drink warm piss beer from plastic bottles
Post by: martyn ellis on January 04, 2023, 01:38:07 PM
Thanks a lot for this. How do i send a DM? (Call me old fashioned).Maybe not the right thread (someone tell me where best to place it) but I have been a ST holder for many years, but this year has been ridiculous re my ability to get to games from London. A combination of Evening Kick Offs, the World Cup, disrupted train services and a host of other stuff, has limited my attendance to about 4 games this season. Selling my ticket on is not much of an option as you end up with a fraction of the ticket price and it's not worth the hassle. There must be others in my position as I see plenty of Villa shirts at Euston when there is a regular kick off time. I'm not currently thinking of giving up my ST, but it's certainly been on my mind recently. 7,000 empty seats for Wolves does not surprise me, as there are plenty of devoted fans who don't live on VP's doorstep.
Are you in the London Lions? Loads of us in the same boat; but there's always ways we make it easier – lift shares, two-together rail discounts etc. Drop me a DM if you like, and I can put you in contact with the relevant North/East/South/West London chairman.
Post by: Dave P on January 04, 2023, 01:38:24 PM
Post by: paul_e on January 04, 2023, 01:49:51 PM
I've just been online and totted up 2014 seats available for tonight. With everything going on such as schools back, train strikes, £50+ tickets etc, I'd say this is a great effort.
As has been said a few times a lot of those tickets are gonig to be very tough to sell so, for me, the count for blocks with the red ticks can be ignored as 'normal' unsold seats (pretty much every club has a few hundred of these). The blue tick blocks are the ones where the various contributing factors listed on here have seen maybe 1000-1200 tickets go unsold.
Post by: coreyfeldman on January 04, 2023, 01:50:29 PM
I understand all of the above but it's no different to other big clubs in the league all seemed packed to the rafters last night.
If we can't sell out against Wolves when we are in form and a real feel good factor around then how will we do with a 50,000 seater stadium , that's all I'm saying . We could often have 10,000 empty seats when the supply and demand weakens and there's no real need to be a season ticket holder or buy in advance.
We've got s very strong base but the support can't be taken for granted.
We sell out plenty and obviously part of the stadium expansion and ticket sales will also be related to development in the area, transport links being updates and the team being in a stronger position that it is now. Of course there's an element of risk to it, but what is it that you're actually asking for or want? It's pointless just constantly complaining about the same thing without a thought about what it is you're after. Would you prefer the club decide to not upgrade the stadium and area?
Do you imagine a perfect world where we sell out every single match, regardless of any outside impacting factors, and unless we do then the club has fucked it and the stadium expansion is pointless? There's so little nuance or understanding of the other factors involved in attendances, and then the forthcoming stadium expansion in your 'arguments'.
Like others have said, train strikes, January and the fact that we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis will obviously sometimes impact the sales.
You find matches that we haven't sold out (we sell out plenty), and then talk about 'embarrassment', and catastrophise the situation. It's bizarre mate, and other posters have commented, you don't seem to take any counter points on board from anyone else.
Other teams 'seemed to be packed to the rafters' - I guarantee you won't see many empty seats when you watch highlights of us tonight, so will also seem to be packed. Also, if we sell 1000 tickets less than capacity, is that not counted as being packed or busy? You have such a negative view point, and it's pretty grating.
yikes, sorry I just probably should block rather than getting sucked in like this :)
Post by: Hookeysmith on January 04, 2023, 01:55:27 PM
I've just been online and totted up 2014 seats available for tonight. With everything going on such as schools back, train strikes, £50+ tickets etc, I'd say this is a great effort.
So £40+K attending on a shit Jan mid week night post Christmas, with major travel disruptions and some on here are complaining?
Dog Shit City and Bitters average attendances (15,483 + 22,063) @ £37K combined puts our size into comparison -you could add probably Walsall's and still not match ours
Perspective required
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2023, 01:57:44 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 04, 2023, 02:06:26 PM
Post by: exiled on the wirral! on January 04, 2023, 02:11:35 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 04, 2023, 02:12:48 PM
What's getting lost on what Fred is saying and he's right on is the price of these tickets in the Trinity and Witton Lane...£59 with no concessions is just pure greed on Villa's part for a game against the likes of Wolves. Why is there no concessions in the Trinity anyway, no-one has been able to give a credible reason why?
There are, just not in the better seats (central blocks in the Upper for example).
Post by: eamonn on January 04, 2023, 02:13:30 PM
Was 3 years outside the PL and Villa fans as captain and manager really enough for us to maintain this peak for the long-term?
Sorry, I'm becoming more like Freddie.
Post by: paul_e on January 04, 2023, 02:20:16 PM
What's getting lost on what Fred is saying and he's right on is the price of these tickets in the Trinity and Witton Lane...£59 with no concessions is just pure greed on Villa's part for a game against the likes of Wolves. Why is there no concessions in the Trinity anyway, no-one has been able to give a credible reason why?
I honestly don't think that has been lost on anyone, there have been plenty of comments about the poor pricing from people disagreeing with him and accepting it as ONE factor in why, for this specific game, we won't be above 97% capacity. It's the rest of his argument that the club are lying about the waiting list and we'll have 7000 empty seats every week once the new stand is built that people are arguing with.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on January 04, 2023, 02:53:21 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2023, 03:30:26 PM
As much as most of us like to say it's not a derby, there's definitely a lot of Black Country based Villa fans who keep a close eye on the Dingles.
Post by: DeKuip on January 04, 2023, 03:54:42 PM
This is not London.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 04, 2023, 04:02:06 PM
I’d have been more disappointed if we had sold out. The only way our owners and Purslow will ever get the message that prices are ridiculously high is by fans not paying it.
This is not London.
I'd agree with that, but a chunk of our fanbase does think that the owners have shelled out enough and 'proper' supporters should be happy to put their whack in as well.
Post by: AGRIPPA on January 04, 2023, 04:16:21 PM
We need a bigger ground. We've never come close to operating at this percentage of capacity for a sustained period, ever. We've had three, just three, seasons where we've averaged bigger gates than we're seeing now; 1937/38, 48/49 & 49/50. And we had a much bigger ground then, housing occasional gates of 67-69k+.
lets not forget how many weren't counted (ie..cash walk-ins....)back in the day
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 04, 2023, 04:25:19 PM
I'm in complete agreement that the ticket prices this year are over the top and the owners need to be very wary that they are not sustainable if we don't get some tangible success very soon but there's the rub - I'm not sure it's ever going to be possible to have a successful team and cheap tickets at the same time (at least, not if you're not backed by a repressive regime who cheat the system with false sponsorship deals).
Post by: paul_e on January 04, 2023, 04:27:44 PM
I’d have been more disappointed if we had sold out. The only way our owners and Purslow will ever get the message that prices are ridiculously high is by fans not paying it.
This is not London.
I'd agree with that, but a chunk of our fanbase does think that the owners have shelled out enough and 'proper' supporters should be happy to put their whack in as well.
Ticket prices aren't a fight that can be done club-by-club, there need to be blanket changes at a leagure or even FA level to bring them back in line.
Post by: PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt on January 04, 2023, 06:57:41 PM
I'm not tight but I honestly can't justify that kind of money.
Post by: rob_bridge on January 04, 2023, 07:00:08 PM
We've sold more than 40,000 for every game back in the Premier League.
IIRC the last season under O Leary we didn't even sell out v Noses - it was Easter Sunday and I booked mine on Good Friday. There was a huge amount riding on it too.
Post by: Pete3206 on January 04, 2023, 07:42:35 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on January 04, 2023, 11:04:37 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 04, 2023, 11:05:24 PM
Under 40,000 then in the end so we would have had 10,000 empty seats with new north
Have the night off.
Post by: coreyfeldman on January 04, 2023, 11:06:58 PM
Under 40,000 then in the end so we would have had 10,000 empty seats with new north
What a strange little man you are
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 04, 2023, 11:09:46 PM
Under 40,000 then in the end so we would have had 10,000 empty seats with new north
Oh FOR FUCKS SAKE can someone make it stop now?
Post by: Flin5tone on January 04, 2023, 11:12:54 PM
They have misjudged the support . Other well supported clubs were packed to the rafters tonight.
The club made a huge mistake with the pricing
Post by: coreyfeldman on January 04, 2023, 11:13:48 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 04, 2023, 11:15:35 PM
It's a problem for the club
They have misjudged the support . Other well supported clubs were packed to the rafters tonight.
The club made a huge mistake with the pricing
Yes, but the pricing thing is a different issue isn't it? We all agree on that.
It's the tedious "10,000 empty seats" stuff that you just keep banging on and on about.
It's so boring and predictable.
Post by: Flin5tone on January 04, 2023, 11:17:46 PM
It's like dealing with a load of upset teenagers on Facebook on here at times. You don't like the facts and 'block out' the truth .
The club need to sort it out or we WiLL have 10,000 empty seats on many occasions
It's pure GREED and many people have commented that the price put them off
Driving out then local working class for some fantasy waiting list will end in disaster.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 04, 2023, 11:21:37 PM
Can't you just talk about something else for a change? You'd be doing us all a favour.
Even if you keep the 10,000 empty seats thing, mix it up with maybe talking about something else every now and then?
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 04, 2023, 11:24:33 PM
Post by: coreyfeldman on January 04, 2023, 11:24:37 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on January 04, 2023, 11:33:30 PM
If he's moaning about the prices for tonight, wait until he sees the prices for Bruce Springsteen in the summer!
Post by: astonvilla82 on January 04, 2023, 11:40:35 PM
Post by: coreyfeldman on January 04, 2023, 11:51:17 PM
Of course completely ignoring the fact that the new stand won't be completed for a few years, by which time we might not be 11th in the league.
If he's moaning about the prices for tonight, wait until he sees the prices for Bruce Springsteen in the summer!
Exactly, if we're in the mix for Europe then we'd probably sell another few thousand tickets. Which you'd assume is the clubs logic.
Some tickets are expensive, yes, but name me a Premier league club who doesn't have similar priced tickets that has a ground our size
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 05, 2023, 08:10:35 AM
It's a problem for the club
They have misjudged the support . Other well supported clubs were packed to the rafters tonight.
The club made a huge mistake with the pricing
Bullshit. Elland Road was 1,000 under capacity, St Mary's was half empty and Palace haven't published figures.
Post by: KevinGage on January 05, 2023, 08:36:04 AM
Personally I reckon we should Keep Right On with the development, seeing as we've hit 40,000 so often in recent years. It is however very considerate how supporters of a two bob club with two broken down stands worry so much about ours. Shows the decency in the average fan.
Post by: Nev on January 05, 2023, 08:43:07 AM
One bugbear of mine that is just getting worse is the bottleneck on Trinity Road towards the old Upper Grounds pub. Just the other side of the vans that close the road cars were parked on both sides and numerous taxi's were trying to approach the ground within 10 minutes of the final whistle. With thousands heading in the oppossite direction it was chaos and rather fractious at times.
I can't understand why the road isn't closed up to it's junction with Witton Road with access restricted to residents and those with mobility issues, before and after the game for a spell.
Post by: DB on January 05, 2023, 08:43:32 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 05, 2023, 08:57:44 AM
It was noticable that the empty seats were blocks of the most expensive. And of course, alongside all the other reasons not to attend you can add your car getting a ticket when you have been forced to drive due to the lack of public transport.
One bugbear of mine that is just getting worse is the bottleneck on Trinity Road towards the old Upper Grounds pub. Just the other side of the vans that close the road cars were parked on both sides and numerous taxi's were trying to approach the ground within 10 minutes of the final whistle. With thousands heading in the oppossite direction it was chaos and rather fractious at times.
I can't understand why the road isn't closed up to it's junction with Witton Road with access restricted to residents and those with mobility issues, before and after the game for a spell.
My route out is from the Witton Lane side of the North Stand, and it's then a constant bottleneck from the back row out of the stand, down the ramp, between the cars Iin the car park, up the alley by the Trinity and into the jam you mention.
Post by: sid1964 on January 05, 2023, 09:02:27 AM
Post by: DB on January 05, 2023, 09:16:56 AM
It will be interesting to see what the attendance will be for Leeds on a Friday night a game that is on SKY
Depends of the club try £50+ a ticket again.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 05, 2023, 09:31:38 AM
It was noticable that the empty seats were blocks of the most expensive. And of course, alongside all the other reasons not to attend you can add your car getting a ticket when you have been forced to drive due to the lack of public transport.
One bugbear of mine that is just getting worse is the bottleneck on Trinity Road towards the old Upper Grounds pub. Just the other side of the vans that close the road cars were parked on both sides and numerous taxi's were trying to approach the ground within 10 minutes of the final whistle. With thousands heading in the oppossite direction it was chaos and rather fractious at times.
I can't understand why the road isn't closed up to it's junction with Witton Road with access restricted to residents and those with mobility issues, before and after the game for a spell.
Yes, I know we've done this many times before but the traffic situation last night was as bad as Ive seen, by Witton Station there were 40 ton trucks coming down into the crowds along with taxis and locals and no-one could get away and clear the area.
Years back the council (?) used to close Aston Hall Rd making it 2 lanes away from the ground up to Lichfield Rd. There is a stong argument for bringing that back as well as doing same on Trinity Rd and Witton Rd/Brookvale. And as for the argument that it would inconvenience locals, how inconvenienced would they have been by the ongoing chaos last night? Surely a managed system of closure is better than what we see after every game?
Post by: Dave P on January 05, 2023, 09:47:11 AM
It will be interesting to see what the attendance will be for Leeds on a Friday night a game that is on SKY
Depends of the club try £50+ a ticket again.
Leeds is cat B with trains running and Fridays are easier than Wednesdays. There are less than 1400 left with over a week to go which reflects all of the above.
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2023, 09:49:58 AM
Post by: Dave P on January 05, 2023, 09:54:46 AM
Plenty of the seats with the best view in the ground empty last night. Often the case in the centre of the Upper Witton. I'm guessing these were £55 a go?
£59
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2023, 09:57:08 AM
Post by: sid1964 on January 05, 2023, 09:57:14 AM
Post by: Nev on January 05, 2023, 10:17:23 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 05, 2023, 10:27:40 AM
£59.00 no wonder they did not sell out these seats
And the view might be good but the facilities are shite.
Post by: eamonn on January 05, 2023, 10:33:17 AM
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2023, 10:34:53 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 05, 2023, 10:37:40 AM
Best view in the ground.
Trinity Upper, and you don't get the winter sun in your eyes.
Post by: luke95 on January 05, 2023, 10:43:29 AM
Taxi's trying to squeeze through the narrowest of gabs resulting in wing mirrors being taken off. It was virtually impossible for walkers to filter through the traffic like normal due to taxis being so tight in passing each other
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 05, 2023, 10:47:31 AM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on January 05, 2023, 10:48:17 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2023, 10:53:38 AM
David Micahel of MOMS said back in October that he had been informed that that Aston Villa have consulted the local authority’s Safety Advisory Group regarding the installing of rail seating in both the Upper Doug Ellis and the Upper Holte End - possibly from as early as next season to coincide with the reduced capacity for the North Stand redev.
I'd have thought Holte lower was more obvious as they stand in there anyway. But even so, if fans are going to lose seats as early as next season I would have thought we'd have started to hear a bit more about it by now?
Anybody know any mre about this?
Post by: Bad English on January 05, 2023, 11:56:51 AM
For some reason there was also a car just sitting in the middle of Trinity Road outside the Holte Pub after the game - the driver was just sitting in his seat eating a pie!Was he African?
Post by: eamonn on January 05, 2023, 12:00:04 PM
For some reason there was also a car just sitting in the middle of Trinity Road outside the Holte Pub after the game - the driver was just sitting in his seat eating a pie!Was he African?
This month marks the 10th anniversary of the Reverser!
Post by: Des Little on January 05, 2023, 12:02:17 PM
Post by: Rico on January 05, 2023, 12:11:08 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 05, 2023, 01:32:07 PM
Post by: Des Little on January 05, 2023, 01:41:36 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2023, 03:13:27 PM
Is that really realistic? Aren't there houses all along that road on the one side?
I remember hearing something about the club buying up land between the station and the ground, is that where this new access is going to be?
Me no understand.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2023, 03:13:40 PM
The video on there ^^^
Post by: paul_e on January 05, 2023, 03:19:45 PM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/ (https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/)
The video on there ^^^
(https://i.ibb.co/VYtcwtz/2023-01-05-15-18-09.png) (https://ibb.co/VYtcwtz)
The houses (and church) are all there in white.
EDIT - I think it looks misleading because the various walls and fences aren't included so it looks more open than it is. What will be interesting is car parking along there. Last time I was near there it was doubled up parking all along and I can't imagine the club will want that.
Post by: DeKuip on January 05, 2023, 03:26:54 PM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/ (https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/)
The video on there ^^^
(https://i.ibb.co/VYtcwtz/2023-01-05-15-18-09.png) (https://ibb.co/VYtcwtz)
The houses (and church) are all there in white.
EDIT - I think it looks misleading because the various walls and fences aren't included so it looks more open than it is. What will be interesting is car parking along there. Last time I was near there it was doubled up parking all along and I can't imagine the club will want that.
So we’re just painting their houses and trees white and nicking their cars?
Fair enough.
Post by: Bad English on January 05, 2023, 03:54:30 PM
Post by: eamonn on January 05, 2023, 03:56:16 PM
Post by: eamonn on January 05, 2023, 03:57:36 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on January 05, 2023, 04:04:13 PM
Has anything been said about the name of the new stand? While it has been the 'North' for most of my life, I do find it a bit generic and bland.
Whilst demolition is progressing, I suggest 'The Legion End'. ;)
Post by: Des Little on January 05, 2023, 10:07:51 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on January 06, 2023, 11:56:54 AM
Post by: Drummond on January 06, 2023, 12:21:07 PM
Has anything been said about the name of the new stand? While it has been the 'North' for most of my life, I do find it a bit generic and bland.
Whilst demolition is progressing, I suggest 'The Legion End'. ;)
We would end up with that as the only one left standing.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 06, 2023, 12:25:10 PM
Has anything been said about the name of the new stand? While it has been the 'North' for most of my life, I do find it a bit generic and bland.
Whilst demolition is progressing, I suggest 'The Legion End'. ;)
We would end up with that as the only one left standing.
On an earthquake zone.
Post by: Villa Lew on February 18, 2023, 04:54:35 PM
Post by: aj2k77 on February 18, 2023, 05:02:17 PM
Post by: Risso on February 18, 2023, 06:07:17 PM
Post by: Ads on February 18, 2023, 06:09:19 PM
Post by: eamonn on February 18, 2023, 06:20:00 PM
Purslow was saying today, we have 29k on the ST waiting list, obviously very happy with the expansion, but with such a long waiting list, we will eventually have to be looking at a capacity around the 60k mark.
Ha! With the results we serve up, I think we'll be fine til we're all dead.
Post by: astonvilla82 on February 18, 2023, 06:20:17 PM
That useless arse disappeared into the owners’ box with Tom Hanks today after an hour, more interested in schmoozing celebrities than overseeing the shambles he’s got overall responsibility for.Hopefully Tom Hanks told him they are making Castaway 2 and they want him in the lead role
Post by: Clampy on February 19, 2023, 08:30:29 AM
Post by: The Edge on February 19, 2023, 10:11:29 AM
CEO accompanies famous VIP guest back into the owners box. What's the world coming to?Yep. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 19, 2023, 10:42:31 AM
Post by: saunders_heroes on February 19, 2023, 05:46:40 PM
CEO accompanies famous VIP guest back into the owners box. What's the world coming to?
Agreed. Big deal.
Post by: astonvilla82 on February 19, 2023, 06:29:55 PM
It will be tough enough to upgrade transport links to handle 50k inside the next two years so god knows how we’d handle 60k without infrastructure spending the likes of which only really happens in London, even given more time to do it in.London is subsided by the scanty London government
Post by: ez on February 19, 2023, 06:30:02 PM
CEO accompanies famous VIP guest back into the owners box. What's the world coming to?He thought we were playing Forest.
Post by: Footy-Vill on February 19, 2023, 07:01:30 PM
Purslow when asked on BT sport yesterday why is expansion of Villa Park so important?Purslow was saying today, we have 29k on the ST waiting list, obviously very happy with the expansion, but with such a long waiting list, we will eventually have to be looking at a capacity around the 60k mark.
Ha! With the results we serve up, I think we'll be fine til we're all dead.
"I'm extremely proud of our wonderful club. We have an absolutely storied history. We founded professional football in this country. This wonderful stadium, where we are today, is a cathedral. All football fans love it here.
We need to modernise this stadium. We need to provide suitable accommodation; we have 29,000 fans now on a waiting list so we need more seats. This new stand will take us to just over 50,000.
And crucially, the stadium will be compliant with FIFA and UEFA, so that brings the possibility of this wonderful stadium hosting international football again in the future, as it's done many times in the past."
Post by: algy on February 19, 2023, 07:10:03 PM
Was talking to my dad about this a couple of weeks back. It's all done on a cost-benefit analysis and so because potentially 40m+ people will get use from anything built in the SE then it generally gets an easy ride, whereas he lives in the middle of Wales where there's only about 50000 people spread across 2/3rds of Wales so getting lottery funding, government funding (from Westminster) etc is practically impossible cos it's only ever going to "benefit" a few thousand folk ... even if for those people it'd make a huge difference to their standard of living. E.g. there's several people round his way that don't have mains water or electricity. It's a mad place really, like a 3rd world country in places.It will be tough enough to upgrade transport links to handle 50k inside the next two years so god knows how we’d handle 60k without infrastructure spending the likes of which only really happens in London, even given more time to do it in.London is subsided by the scanty London government
Anyway, same is going to be true, albeit not on quite such an extreme scale, here. They're going to have to make damn sure that the changes they're proposing will benefit a lot more folk then just the residents of B6 and 40k football supporters.
Post by: Risso on March 17, 2023, 11:12:39 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 17, 2023, 11:25:55 AM
Our beloved local paper now reporting that work will only start on the new North Stand when plans for an upgraded Witton station have been approved, and as nothing seems to have been discussed yet, that's surely going to set it back by quite a while?
That was always going to be the case. It's all dependent on the station, but I don't think we would sound so positive without some cast-iron guarantees.
Post by: London Villan on March 17, 2023, 11:29:42 AM
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
Post by: WassallVillain on March 17, 2023, 11:48:49 AM
The private sector moves a little more quickly than the pseudo-public sector though. Have the plans for the station even been submitted? Will there be anything significant there, other than better queueing system? No new platforms, and certainly no new tracks to accommodate extra post-match trains.
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
It can’t need much more than a platform extension and access egress onto station road throw in a footbridge over railway for foot traffic from new academy site a lick of paint for the bridge job done.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 17, 2023, 11:53:54 AM
The private sector moves a little more quickly than the pseudo-public sector though. Have the plans for the station even been submitted? Will there be anything significant there, other than better queueing system? No new platforms, and certainly no new tracks to accommodate extra post-match trains.
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
It'll be publicly funded, which is where the Commonwealth Games helped us. You did it for them, you can do it for us; Invisible Andy is saying all the right things on this one.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 17, 2023, 11:58:47 AM
I can't see that anything significant is going to be happening on the new stand much before the end of this year anyway, and then it's looking at a 2 year build I think so I'm sure the timeline is all in hand.
Post by: London Villan on March 17, 2023, 11:59:25 AM
The private sector moves a little more quickly than the pseudo-public sector though. Have the plans for the station even been submitted? Will there be anything significant there, other than better queueing system? No new platforms, and certainly no new tracks to accommodate extra post-match trains.
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
It can’t need much more than a platform extension and access egress onto station road throw in a footbridge over railway for foot traffic from new academy site a lick of paint for the bridge job done.
That will be £20m please.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 17, 2023, 12:01:26 PM
The private sector moves a little more quickly than the pseudo-public sector though. Have the plans for the station even been submitted? Will there be anything significant there, other than better queueing system? No new platforms, and certainly no new tracks to accommodate extra post-match trains.
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
It can’t need much more than a platform extension and access egress onto station road throw in a footbridge over railway for foot traffic from new academy site a lick of paint for the bridge job done.
That will be £20m please.
Maybe we can call it the Danny Ings Bridge then?
Post by: Drummond on March 17, 2023, 12:11:56 PM
The private sector moves a little more quickly than the pseudo-public sector though. Have the plans for the station even been submitted? Will there be anything significant there, other than better queueing system? No new platforms, and certainly no new tracks to accommodate extra post-match trains.
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
It can’t need much more than a platform extension and access egress onto station road throw in a footbridge over railway for foot traffic from new academy site a lick of paint for the bridge job done.
That will be £20m please.
Maybe we can call it the Danny Ings Bridge then?
You having first DIBs on that name?
Post by: eamonn on March 17, 2023, 12:24:06 PM
Post by: WassallVillain on March 17, 2023, 12:32:22 PM
The private sector moves a little more quickly than the pseudo-public sector though. Have the plans for the station even been submitted? Will there be anything significant there, other than better queueing system? No new platforms, and certainly no new tracks to accommodate extra post-match trains.
This will probably mean a big hold-up, as it's not even mentioned in any of the future transport plans for the region.
Even new lifts, access and space for queues is a £10m - £15m job... who is going to pay for that? Us probably!
It can’t need much more than a platform extension and access egress onto station road throw in a footbridge over railway for foot traffic from new academy site a lick of paint for the bridge job done.
That will be £20m please.
Seems about right but should get a tunnel under railway for that. Much easier on the knees as well for us oldies.
Post by: London Villan on March 17, 2023, 12:58:46 PM
When was the mooted time of completion, sometime during second part of 2024/25, was it?
The start of the 25/26 season is more realistic. It's at least an 18-month build - let alone the demolition of the existing stand. It's not likely to start until late 2023...
Post by: LeeB on March 17, 2023, 01:07:40 PM
Our beloved local paper now reporting that work will only start on the new North Stand when plans for an upgraded Witton station have been approved, and as nothing seems to have been discussed yet, that's surely going to set it back by quite a while?
I'm surprised word has gotten as far as the Rutland Enquirer
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 17, 2023, 01:11:57 PM
Our beloved local paper now reporting that work will only start on the new North Stand when plans for an upgraded Witton station have been approved, and as nothing seems to have been discussed yet, that's surely going to set it back by quite a while?
I'm surprised word has gotten as far as the Rutland Enquirer
*Paging BE*
Post by: LeeB on March 17, 2023, 04:50:05 PM
Our beloved local paper now reporting that work will only start on the new North Stand when plans for an upgraded Witton station have been approved, and as nothing seems to have been discussed yet, that's surely going to set it back by quite a while?
I'm surprised word has gotten as far as the Rutland Enquirer
*Paging BE*
It's not my fault, I'm a victim of American cultural imperialism.
Anyway, was talking with the Cov fan at work about the crowds/waiting list and now mad it is compared to when I started going, so I dug up an average attendance table from 86/87 and our average this season would put us top of it.
Post by: eamonn on March 17, 2023, 05:09:33 PM
Post by: adrenachrome on March 17, 2023, 06:03:16 PM
Our beloved local paper now reporting that work will only start on the new North Stand when plans for an upgraded Witton station have been approved, and as nothing seems to have been discussed yet, that's surely going to set it back by quite a while?
I'm surprised word has gotten as far as the Rutland Enquirer
*Paging BE*
It's not my fault, I'm a victim of American cultural imperialism.
Anyway, was talking with the Cov fan at work about the crowds/waiting list and now mad it is compared to when I started going, so I dug up an average attendance table from 86/87 and our average this season would put us top of it.
Ever since you built your Caravan Empire you have forgotten your roots. I bet you are BUPA'd up now and evict peasant tenants with four hungry children and a crop in the field.
Heartless.
Post by: Jean Quereue-Quereue on March 17, 2023, 08:25:48 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/VtCeuFX.png)
Post by: adrenachrome on March 17, 2023, 08:58:56 PM
A planning application has gone in for a 180 capacity terrace on the Upper Holte. There's seating and a bit of a canopy planned. Application number 2023/01507/PA
(https://i.imgur.com/VtCeuFX.png)
They should build a roof garden on top of The Holte with gourmet restaurants affording a panoramic view of Spaghetti Junction. That would rule.
Padded swivel seats obvs. Heliccopter landing pending.
Post by: LeeB on March 17, 2023, 09:03:10 PM
A planning application has gone in for a 180 capacity terrace on the Upper Holte. There's seating and a bit of a canopy planned. Application number 2023/01507/PA
(https://i.imgur.com/VtCeuFX.png)
They should build a roof garden on top of The Holte with gourmet restaurants affording a panoramic view of Spaghetti Junction. That would rule.
Padded swivel seats obvs. Heliccopter landing pending.
A roller coaster also, maybe the Stevie G-Force ride which starts off pleasant enough but then goes downhill really fast
Post by: adrenachrome on March 17, 2023, 09:07:53 PM
A planning application has gone in for a 180 capacity terrace on the Upper Holte. There's seating and a bit of a canopy planned. Application number 2023/01507/PA
(https://i.imgur.com/VtCeuFX.png)
They should build a roof garden on top of The Holte with gourmet restaurants affording a panoramic view of Spaghetti Junction. That would rule.
Padded swivel seats obvs. Heliccopter landing pending.
A roller coaster also, maybe the Steven G-Force ride which starts off pleasant enough but then goes downhill really fast
See, now you're talking.
Blue sky thinking. Tony Xia's smart cities was boxed in talk.
We should reach for the stars.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 17, 2023, 09:12:21 PM
Post by: adrenachrome on March 17, 2023, 09:22:38 PM
I propose the instillation of two large nets, one outside the Holte, one at New St, and two extra-large trebuchets (10 people per, er, journey) in the same locations. We wouldn't have to bother with all this expansion of Witton station nonsense. We can just crack on.
See, that's a vision thing coming slaminng thru. Trebuchets, in particular, are an exquisite touch.
Never mind about the River Tame flooding the gaffe, we will build castles in the air.
Post by: maidstonevillain on March 18, 2023, 12:21:27 PM
https://www.macearchive.org/films/atv-today-04081972-interview-doug-ellis-aston-villa-chairman
Post by: cdward on March 18, 2023, 12:26:58 PM
No doubt it has been posted before, and I probably watched the original on ATV today. But interesting nonetheless.Purslow vibes
https://www.macearchive.org/films/atv-today-04081972-interview-doug-ellis-aston-villa-chairman
Post by: Footy-Vill on March 18, 2023, 12:58:30 PM
Post by: Axl Rose on March 18, 2023, 01:11:43 PM
No doubt it has been posted before, and I probably watched the original on ATV today. But interesting nonetheless.Purslow vibes
https://www.macearchive.org/films/atv-today-04081972-interview-doug-ellis-aston-villa-chairman
Beautiful stand, the old Trinity.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 18, 2023, 01:54:33 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on March 18, 2023, 07:38:13 PM
Does anyone know whether the Villa Live complex will be open after the game? I’ve kinda assumed that because it is separate to the stadium different rules can be applied but do we know for certain. After all stopping for a celebratory beer would be a good way of staggering the rush back to the stations.I could be wrong but I was under the impression that was part of the thinking.
Post by: Dazvillain on March 18, 2023, 07:44:32 PM
Thought I’d heard or read this week that the start of demolition and project won’t be considered until council stump up some cash for witton station improvements . That’s partly the reason the club haven’t contacted current North Stand ST holders re relocation yetWhen was the mooted time of completion, sometime during second part of 2024/25, was it?
The start of the 25/26 season is more realistic. It's at least an 18-month build - let alone the demolition of the existing stand. It's not likely to start until late 2023...
Post by: Flin5tone on March 19, 2023, 09:04:25 AM
As Bournemouth did not sell the upper away end for the match yesterday, the club sold tickets to home supporters a couple of weeks in advance.these seats did not sell out , Saturday 3pm? If we can't sell out 42k now what are the realistic chances of selling out 50k plus? Is the rebuild worth it? Better off tarting up the existing stand?
Post by: Risso on March 19, 2023, 09:09:16 AM
Post by: Drummond on March 19, 2023, 09:15:45 AM
2/10, poor attempt at trolling. You need to put a bit more effort in and find a new angle, like Team Footy.
Grumble-Vill
Post by: Bad English on March 19, 2023, 09:22:22 AM
No. A community that does not invest in its future is a community destined to wither and die.
Post by: Flin5tone on March 19, 2023, 09:23:16 AM
He sounds like some of the people in my village. "Why are you spending €400,000 on a new building for the council works department? Can't you just have the roof repaired on the old one?"
No. A community that does not invest in its future is a community destined to wither and die.
I like the sound of the villagers
Post by: Ads on March 19, 2023, 09:28:51 AM
He sounds like some of the people in my village. "Why are you spending €400,000 on a new building for the council works department? Can't you just have the roof repaired on the old one?"
No. A community that does not invest in its future is a community destined to wither and die.
It's heartening to know that there's smooth brained fools in other places too at least. Also a shame that you have to deal with these ambitionless whiners in your quest to improve their lot.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2023, 09:29:13 AM
Great thinking by the club and yet another reason to be optimistic.
Out of interest, who at the club would be responsible for dreaming up such ideas? Is this Purslow or does it stem from one of the football people?
Post by: Lucky Eddie on March 19, 2023, 09:39:16 AM
He sounds like some of the people in my village. "Why are you spending €400,000 on a new building for the council works department? Can't you just have the roof repaired on the old one?"
No. A community that does not invest in its future is a community destined to wither and die.
The good old HS2 argument.
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 19, 2023, 09:46:23 AM
The HS 2 argument is the same as the one criticising Plymouth Town Council.He sounds like some of the people in my village. "Why are you spending €400,000 on a new building for the council works department? Can't you just have the roof repaired on the old one?"
No. A community that does not invest in its future is a community destined to wither and die.
The good old HS2 argument.
There are good infrastructure plans and there are terrible ones. HS2 is an economic environmental disaster.
Post by: danno on March 19, 2023, 09:50:57 AM
There’s a good article on the athletic about the new academy. The justification for the place is so kids can get to the academy within 15-minutes from school (whereas the training ground you generally need a car), which they hope means they can attract better players. It’s right by the ground too so strengthens the villa identity in the area.
Great thinking by the club and yet another reason to be optimistic.
Out of interest, who at the club would be responsible for dreaming up such ideas? Is this Purslow or does it stem from one of the football people?
I read that it was highlighted by Steve Round under Xia.
https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/football/aston-villa/2023/03/17/matt-maher-inner-city-move-could-be-a-game-changer-for-aston-villa/
Post by: Smithy on March 19, 2023, 09:53:38 AM
Observation
As Bournemouth did not sell the upper away end for the match yesterday, the club sold tickets to home supporters a couple of weeks in advance.these seats did not sell out , Saturday 3pm? If we can't sell out 42k now what are the realistic chances of selling out 50k plus? Is the rebuild worth it? Better off tarting up the existing stand?
Observation.
West Ham have gone from a 35,000 stadium to a 60,000 one, despite selling out the 35k ground just TEN times in the two seasons before they moved stadium. They now have the 7th highest attendances in European football.
West Ham.
West. Ham.
If you don't think a thriving Villa are capable of regularly getting 50,000 people to a redeveloped Villa Park, then I think you're in for a bit of a shock when it's all finished.
Post by: Flin5tone on March 19, 2023, 09:57:31 AM
Observation
As Bournemouth did not sell the upper away end for the match yesterday, the club sold tickets to home supporters a couple of weeks in advance.these seats did not sell out , Saturday 3pm? If we can't sell out 42k now what are the realistic chances of selling out 50k plus? Is the rebuild worth it? Better off tarting up the existing stand?
Observation.
West Ham have gone from a 35,000 stadium to a 60,000 one, despite selling out the 35k ground just TEN times in the two seasons before they moved stadium. They now have the 7th highest attendances in European football.
West Ham.
West. Ham.
If you don't think a thriving Villa are capable of regularly getting 50,000 people to a redeveloped Villa Park, then I think you're in for a bit of a shock when it's all finished.
I hope I am
Where did you find that stat for West Ham ? I don't believe it to be true. Upton Park was always packed to the rafters
Post by: manic-road on March 19, 2023, 10:03:19 AM
Post by: Smithy on March 19, 2023, 10:18:05 AM
Don't feed the troll
Noted, sorry.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on March 19, 2023, 10:29:16 AM
Post by: Bad English on March 19, 2023, 10:29:25 AM
Post by: saunders_heroes on March 19, 2023, 10:29:50 AM
Observation
As Bournemouth did not sell the upper away end for the match yesterday, the club sold tickets to home supporters a couple of weeks in advance.these seats did not sell out , Saturday 3pm? If we can't sell out 42k now what are the realistic chances of selling out 50k plus? Is the rebuild worth it? Better off tarting up the existing stand?
Observation.
West Ham have gone from a 35,000 stadium to a 60,000 one, despite selling out the 35k ground just TEN times in the two seasons before they moved stadium. They now have the 7th highest attendances in European football.
West Ham.
West. Ham.
If you don't think a thriving Villa are capable of regularly getting 50,000 people to a redeveloped Villa Park, then I think you're in for a bit of a shock when it's all finished.
I hope I am
Where did you find that stat for West Ham ? I don't believe it to be true. Upton Park was always packed to the rafters
Was it f#ck!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 10:41:47 AM
Post by: Ads on March 19, 2023, 10:43:08 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 10:45:21 AM
Post by: AV82EC on March 19, 2023, 10:46:05 AM
Post by: Ads on March 19, 2023, 10:48:27 AM
I wonder what they will do about the reduced capacity.
Was thinking the same. I assume the away end being snipped would be part of it, but then the away end itself will be effected by the construction.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 19, 2023, 10:56:29 AM
Post by: Ads on March 19, 2023, 10:59:47 AM
Post by: eamonn on March 19, 2023, 12:10:04 PM
I wonder what they will do about the reduced capacity.
Was thinking the same. I assume the away end being snipped would be part of it, but then the away end itself will be effected by the construction.
We still need to offer away allocation 10% of the working capacity, surely.
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 12:16:49 PM
Post by: DB on March 19, 2023, 12:29:08 PM
Post by: Lucky Eddie on March 19, 2023, 12:31:53 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 12:39:34 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 12:55:45 PM
Those upper away end seats were on sale a few days before and only by phone. The club also made no attempt to publicise it either. There were people on here last night pointing out they wanted to go but there were no tickets online.
I wonder how the away allocation will work while the North stand is out of operation.
We'll be down to about 35-36k for six months so perhaps could be allowed just to give the lower tier of Witton up to halfway line for away fans which might be 2k and then the Upper can go to some of the displaced fans.
Not ideal and not sure if prem rules will allow anymore (I'm sure years back when Newcastle were extending they only used to give 500 tickets to away fans).
I was sitting right in the corner of the Holte Upper (lovely view of the half time rainbows over the Expressway) so have no idea how populated the upper part was but if attendance is given as 41k still it suggests there was a very good take up at short notice.
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 12:57:28 PM
I wonder what they will do about the reduced capacity.
Was thinking the same. I assume the away end being snipped would be part of it, but then the away end itself will be effected by the construction.
We still need to offer away allocation 10% of the working capacity, surely.
That's just the rule for FA cup.
Working capacity would be 3.5k so that's about 700-800 seats more than do in a 42k ground!
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 19, 2023, 01:01:45 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 01:05:40 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 01:06:48 PM
I am assuming the Lower terrace of the North Stand will be kept open subject to timing.
Not sure. If we're knocking down the whole of NS in one go that surely becomes safety concern given lack of access points.
Hopefully that part will be open again within six months just to have some fans behind the goal. Lower Trinity was open early the next season although I appreciate that was over 20 years ago and a completely different build.
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 01:07:47 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/5TtfKHn/CC8-D064-E-BE69-4-F26-B78-E-AA66-BC4-CF9-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TtfKHn)
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 19, 2023, 01:16:58 PM
There were about 800 empty seat in the upper witton.
(https://i.ibb.co/5TtfKHn/CC8-D064-E-BE69-4-F26-B78-E-AA66-BC4-CF9-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TtfKHn)
Very disappointing.
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 01:17:48 PM
There were about 800 empty seat in the upper witton.
(https://i.ibb.co/5TtfKHn/CC8-D064-E-BE69-4-F26-B78-E-AA66-BC4-CF9-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TtfKHn)
I assume Fulham midweek in late April will probably only sell out bottom tier so we need to be publicising extra blocks much earlier as a couple more wins and that could be a big one for 6th-7th when we play them and think we could get 40k Villa fans in the ground for that.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 19, 2023, 01:18:24 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 01:26:23 PM
Post by: Dave P on March 19, 2023, 01:46:11 PM
Those upper away end seats were on sale a few days before and only by phone. The club also made no attempt to publicise it either. There were people on here last night pointing out they wanted to go but there were no tickets online.
Stop coming on here with your facts. You’ll starve the troll.
Post by: Dave P on March 19, 2023, 01:50:04 PM
Thought I’d heard or read this week that the start of demolition and project won’t be considered until council stump up some cash for witton station improvements . That’s partly the reason the club haven’t contacted current North Stand ST holders re relocation yetWhen was the mooted time of completion, sometime during second part of 2024/25, was it?
The start of the 25/26 season is more realistic. It's at least an 18-month build - let alone the demolition of the existing stand. It's not likely to start until late 2023...
I can confirm that they haven’t. My season ticket is in the upper north stand and I’m assuming the stand will be there for all of next season. When they are building it, I know they will relocate us but I’m a bit worried about what choice we will have. “Here you go sir, your new season ticket is in the upper Trinity. That will be double the cost please.” Sure they can only charge us north stand prices?
Post by: FatSam on March 19, 2023, 01:53:19 PM
I am assuming the Lower terrace of the North Stand will be kept open subject to timing.
I think that it would be entirely possibly to create temporary access to the lower tier through a build. It would all depend on cost benefit though; revenue from ticket sales against additional build cost and programme prolongation. It would help the atmosphere a lot to have 2-3k supporters behind that goal.
Post by: Ads on March 19, 2023, 01:54:45 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 01:57:26 PM
I wonder if the front rows weren't put on sale for 'safety' reasons.
I had the feeling they wanted to shift a few up there but only limited numbers as it might have created stewarding problems having home fans above away which never really happens usually. Hence phone booking only.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 02:03:12 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 19, 2023, 02:15:45 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 02:18:31 PM
I wonder if the front rows weren't put on sale for 'safety' reasons.
I had the feeling they wanted to shift a few up there but only limited numbers as it might have created stewarding problems having home fans above away which never really happens usually. Hence phone booking only.
Guess you could be right but Bournemouth is pretty much the most inoffensive fanbase in the premier league so I can't see what Villa fan would just get tickets to pelt missiles at them.
It's no different to when away fans were in lower north and can't remember front rows of Upper North being sectioned off.
If there was notice of a week or two it would be good to give some tickets to local people and families who might not venture to VP much but guess there's premier league rules restricting that and of course knowing what demand from the away team is difficult to tell.
I would say now I can't see Fulham bringing 2.8k fans for a midweek game based on all their years in premier league previously and some sparse away followings so interesting what the communication is like for that if it's a similar turn out.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on March 19, 2023, 02:18:39 PM
Unless they've changed very recently the required allocations to away clubs are a minimum of 3k, unless ground capacity is under 30k, then it's 10% of the ground's capacity. So unless we get special dispensation we'll still be giving away sides approx 3k.
Someone stated that is just for the FA Cup. I don't know if that's right or not.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 19, 2023, 02:24:22 PM
Unless they've changed very recently the required allocations to away clubs are a minimum of 3k, unless ground capacity is under 30k, then it's 10% of the ground's capacity. So unless we get special dispensation we'll still be giving away sides approx 3k.
Someone stated that is just for the FA Cup. I don't know if that's right or not.
15% is regardless of ground size in the FA Cup.
It's only 10% in the PL if the ground capacity is lower than 30k. So a 25k capacity ground is meant to offer 2,500, 15k 1,500, 30k+ be it 31k or 80k is a minimum of 3k.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on March 19, 2023, 02:27:57 PM
Unless they've changed very recently the required allocations to away clubs are a minimum of 3k, unless ground capacity is under 30k, then it's 10% of the ground's capacity. So unless we get special dispensation we'll still be giving away sides approx 3k.
Someone stated that is just for the FA Cup. I don't know if that's right or not.
15% is regardless of ground size in the FA Cup.
It's only 10% in the PL if the ground capacity is lower than 30k. So a 25k capacity ground is meant to offer 2,500, 15k 1,500, 30k+ be it 31k or 80k is a minimum of 3k.
So we could have a 120k stadium with only 3k away fans? I like it. Let's get it done.
Post by: Drummond on March 19, 2023, 02:42:01 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 03:07:11 PM
Unless they've changed very recently the required allocations to away clubs are a minimum of 3k, unless ground capacity is under 30k, then it's 10% of the ground's capacity. So unless we get special dispensation we'll still be giving away sides approx 3k.
Someone stated that is just for the FA Cup. I don't know if that's right or not.
15% is regardless of ground size in the FA Cup.
It's only 10% in the PL if the ground capacity is lower than 30k. So a 25k capacity ground is meant to offer 2,500, 15k 1,500, 30k+ be it 31k or 80k is a minimum of 3k.
Ah right didn't know that PWS. Pretty sure for years our allocation is 2.8k for away fans. Block holds 3k but there's always odd seat left empty at end of rows.
Guess it's tough to gauge numbers sometimes. Let's say Fulham only sell 2k then it seems a bit of a waste to just house 200 of them upstairs.
When you look back at the season reviews in 90s and early 2000s it's quite interesting to see how away numbers have risen over last 15 years.
Would be rows of empty blue seats behind the goal whenever likes of Boro, Wigan, Bolton and Blackburn came to VP. Likes of Man. City and Chelsea wouldn't always sell out either and we didn't always either for plenty of away matches.
Now you need to beg, borrow or regrettably steal to have any sort of chance for away ticket if you're a non season ticket holder.
Premier league football has never been more popular to watch in the modern era despite the ridiculous prices so Purslow and co have sensed this.
Post by: Flin5tone on March 19, 2023, 03:12:38 PM
There were about 800 empty seat in the upper witton.
(https://i.ibb.co/5TtfKHn/CC8-D064-E-BE69-4-F26-B78-E-AA66-BC4-CF9-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TtfKHn)
I assume Fulham midweek in late April will probably only sell out bottom tier so we need to be publicising extra blocks much earlier as a couple more wins and that could be a big one for 6th-7th when we play them and think we could get 40k Villa fans in the ground for that.
Fulham will not sell out just like other midweek evening fixtures have not . So no point opening up upper away end for that fixture. The demand isn't there and if/when the north is rebuilt we can expect many games with 8000 empty seats. The waiting list is massively inflated and can be joined by just pressing a button
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 19, 2023, 03:14:18 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on March 19, 2023, 03:16:29 PM
Don't reply.
How pathetic
I'm stating facts,that's all.
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 19, 2023, 03:20:07 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 19, 2023, 03:21:31 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 19, 2023, 03:24:17 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 19, 2023, 03:29:16 PM
Don't reply.
How pathetic
I'm stating facts,that's all.
No, as usual you’re just being a prick
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 03:43:42 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 03:49:03 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on March 19, 2023, 03:50:00 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 19, 2023, 03:59:21 PM
I checked a couple, West Ham announced they had 2961, Arsenal 2999. We had 3001 and 3003 for the games at their grounds. I believe a reason allocations are now a touch lower for away fans at VP is that there are now away fan wheel chair bays in the away section rather than in with the Villa fans.
Yes there was some capacity alignment during covid as there's less seats in the witton/North stand corner the away fans get.
About twenty years ago our sell out figure used to be something like 42, 606 or something but it's a good five hundred less now.
Man. United 3-1 win was 42, 058 and Liverpool on Boxing day was 42, 085 so sure Flint is all over this....!
Post by: Ads on March 19, 2023, 04:14:39 PM
The real question is why would the club pretend to have a waiting list and waste millions of pounds creating seats for people who don’t exist?
The answer is Fred is boring.
Post by: astonvilla82 on March 19, 2023, 04:29:51 PM
The real question is why would the club pretend to have a waiting list and waste millions of pounds creating seats for people who don’t exist?possiblity that they are all scammers and they have fooled us
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 19, 2023, 04:30:00 PM
There were about 800 empty seat in the upper witton.
(https://i.ibb.co/5TtfKHn/CC8-D064-E-BE69-4-F26-B78-E-AA66-BC4-CF9-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TtfKHn)
I assume Fulham midweek in late April will probably only sell out bottom tier so we need to be publicising extra blocks much earlier as a couple more wins and that could be a big one for 6th-7th when we play them and think we could get 40k Villa fans in the ground for that.
Fulham will not sell out just like other midweek evening fixtures have not . So no point opening up upper away end for that fixture. The demand isn't there and if/when the north is rebuilt we can expect many games with 8000 empty seats. The waiting list is massively inflated and can be joined by just pressing a button
Nobody cares what you say. Nobody on here, nobody at the club, nobody. Your opinion would need to elevate itself by many levels to reach that of pointlessness. You add nothing to any discourse. You, sir, are a crashing bore.
Post by: olaftab on March 19, 2023, 04:40:11 PM
The real question is why would the club pretend to have a waiting list and waste millions of pounds creating seats for people who don’t exist?
You really need to ask that question from someone on here who states facts, rest of us will just make wild, malicious, vindictive and repetitive pointless comments.
Post by: eamonn on March 19, 2023, 04:54:31 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 06:01:20 PM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2023, 06:37:44 PM
Not seen this before, nicely done. Esp the bit with the transition from the 1910s (or whenever) photo.
thanks Paulie. It’s a sublime stadium and watching that makes me grateful we’ve not gone down the retail park bowl route. It feels more real, like a church.
No wonder Villa Park is most teams’ favourite away ground.
Post by: Smirker on March 19, 2023, 08:14:16 PM
The chaotic roof really bothers me.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 19, 2023, 08:36:41 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on March 19, 2023, 08:41:12 PM
Post by: eamonn on March 19, 2023, 08:58:57 PM
Post by: olaftab on March 19, 2023, 09:04:16 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 19, 2023, 09:21:48 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 19, 2023, 09:28:38 PM
Thats about it in terms of size, the extra seats come from installing rail seats.
Can you fit more with rail seats ?
Post by: rob_bridge on March 19, 2023, 09:29:16 PM
I also think Witton Lane Stand looks small compared to the other 3 stands , i hope we can develop it sympathetically
The Witton Lane is actually small in terms of seats - about 9k IIRC which for a side is small. Both ends will be c15k once North Stand done.
Long term we could do with increasing the depth of Witton Land stand by the width of the road at least and adding another tier. That would bring the ground towards 60k if we wanted to. Assuming we stay in top tier and look interested I would hope we can fill over 50k per game.
Post by: KevinGage on March 19, 2023, 10:30:48 PM
I also think Witton Lane Stand looks small compared to the other 3 stands , i hope we can develop it sympathetically
The Witton Lane is actually small in terms of seats - about 9k IIRC which for a side is small. Both ends will be c15k once North Stand done.
Long term we could do with increasing the depth of Witton Land stand by the width of the road at least and adding another tier.
Get your point. But part of the character of VP is having bigger stands behind the goals than along the pitch.
Post by: algy on March 19, 2023, 10:55:04 PM
From what I remember, it depends on how they're installed ... but potentially you can up to a 50% capacity boost.Thats about it in terms of size, the extra seats come from installing rail seats.
Can you fit more with rail seats ?
The up to is the thing there, though. Fortunately to go from 50k to 60k you're looking at, what, an extra 20% ... so it might be possible but I'd guess would need extensive rail seating to be installed.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 19, 2023, 10:57:17 PM
From what I remember, it depends on how they're installed ... but potentially you can up to a 50% capacity boost.Thats about it in terms of size, the extra seats come from installing rail seats.
Can you fit more with rail seats ?
The up to is the thing there, though. Fortunately to go from 50k to 60k you're looking at, what, an extra 20% ... so it might be possible but I'd guess would need extensive rail seating to be installed.
I think that is wrong.
In the UK they are only allowed on a 1:1 basis.
Read that somewhere the other day.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 19, 2023, 11:04:58 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 20, 2023, 06:09:33 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on March 20, 2023, 07:35:36 AM
If the former, a few thoughts, the Villa Live thingy isn’t as big as I’d imagined that it would be, as a concert venue is that going to be big enough? What is that green area at the back of the new North?
And the pedestrianised area where Witton Lane is now, as seen on the drawings, that’s not on the animation. The amount of seats in the new upper North on the Witton side is restricted by the current position of Witton Lane and the current height of its stand roof, do we have to accept that’s a restriction that’s not going to change?
Post by: algy on March 20, 2023, 08:43:04 AM
I think they were/are on a 1:1 basis for the trial, and as PWS said there's other factors, e.g. amenities, which restrict the capacity.From what I remember, it depends on how they're installed ... but potentially you can up to a 50% capacity boost.Thats about it in terms of size, the extra seats come from installing rail seats.
Can you fit more with rail seats ?
The up to is the thing there, though. Fortunately to go from 50k to 60k you're looking at, what, an extra 20% ... so it might be possible but I'd guess would need extensive rail seating to be installed.
I think that is wrong.
In the UK they are only allowed on a 1:1 basis.
Read that somewhere the other day.
However, Telford Athletics Club are building rail seats on a 1:1.6 basis - a 60% increase Vs seating: https://www.fercoseating.com/projects/sports/telford-athletics-club
(Ferco seem to be the main supplier of rail seating in the UK)
This suggests that there might be an upper limit of 1:1.8 (80% increase) based on the current capacity guidelines for terracing in the lower leagues: https://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3
Now, I'd guess reaching the theoretical maximum (1:1.8 ) might be difficult bordering on impossible, just because you've got more rails, have to be able to convert it to seating etc. But it's conceivable that - provided the club were willing to put the investment in (which they seem to be) then a 60% increase, like Telford, might be possible. They might need to be willing to go as far as potentially gutting the innards of, say, the Witton Lane and Holte End to do that though, to deal with the safety issues.
But it's quite enticing to think that a 20k+ capacity Holte End might be on the cards... and not completely out of the question
Post by: chrisw1 on March 20, 2023, 11:09:03 AM
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 20, 2023, 11:19:53 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 20, 2023, 11:53:05 AM
Post by: London Villan on March 20, 2023, 12:00:21 PM
To get a big increase on capacity with rail seating we would basically have to rebuild the stand - you can't just have 20K people in an area designed for 13.5K for lots of reasons, not least the stand won't have been designed for all of the extra weight.
The current seating steps can be reprofiled - I can't see how they can install new railseats without doing that. In theory you could do it in the upper and lower teirs, but there will be a lot of people unhappy to lose their seat for safe standing.
Post by: ironmaidenmania on March 20, 2023, 12:09:32 PM
The cars all drive on the wrong side of the road, except when they show the old ground.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 20, 2023, 12:10:10 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on March 20, 2023, 12:13:10 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 20, 2023, 12:33:19 PM
Love the vid. The North Stand improvement is welcomed but looking at that it does look very boxy to me, not much architectural flair at all. Maybe it will look better in real life once it's done.
I'm not sure how accurate that video is, the roof is completely different to the one on the official site - https://www.avfc.co.uk/villa-park/villa-park-future/
Also Villa Live building is also very different, not least because they've got the orientation wrong by 90 degrees.
The vidoe is still a decent representation of how things might look but I wouldn't dwell on the specifics for long.
Post by: London Villan on March 20, 2023, 12:52:01 PM
It's not just a case of putting in rail seats and ta da, an extra 5k capacity (as an example). As Pat says, weight is an issue. The Holte wasn't designed and built to take 18-20k fans, it was expected it wouldn't change from the approx 13,500 it holds. And then you have the amenities, turnstiles, toilets, concourse size, refreshments (yes I know), fire exits and so on. Again none of those were designed for the extra capacity.
The benefit with the Holte is the amount of space in has available in the concourses. No doubt there will be a need for more exits, toilets etc, but there is the space to do that.
Post by: algy on March 20, 2023, 01:06:56 PM
It's not just a case of putting in rail seats and ta da, an extra 5k capacity (as an example). As Pat says, weight is an issue. The Holte wasn't designed and built to take 18-20k fans, it was expected it wouldn't change from the approx 13,500 it holds. And then you have the amenities, turnstiles, toilets, concourse size, refreshments (yes I know), fire exits and so on. Again none of those were designed for the extra capacity.I agree, there's no point in installing rail seating in the Holte End as is, because it'll cost money and not increase the club's income. It makes no sense financially. However, two things seem clear:
1. The club plan to install rail seating
2. It won't be in the new North Stand.
So that leaves 3 stands. I'd argue that - given that it's where all the corporate facilities are - safe standing is highly unlikely to be in place in much of the Trinity Road stand. Which leaves the other two - the Holte End or the Witton Lane stand. I reckon both, eventually, because there's no reason not to.
Anyway, roll with me here...
We can't significantly increase the size of either stand realistically. So whatever happens is going in the current footprint. Something the club could do would be ...
The Holte End. Rip out the insides completely. Leave the external walls, plus anything needed to keep them structurally sound ... and that's it. Everything else goes. Then rebuild the inside from scratch. Huge, single tier terrace with rail seating, custom built to squeeze every last bit of capacity out of that space. Because you've gutted the place, you can redo the exits, catering, toilets, fire exits, ... from scratch. It's basically a new-build. But, still recognisably the 'old' Holte End. Where once you had 13,500 folk sitting, you can now reconfigure the whole thing to add an extra 7k-8k, .... to the overall capacity. So it's worth it, as it adds about as much (??) to the capacity as rebuilding the North Stand. It maybe doesn't matter so much that it'd be horrendously expensive to do, more so than building it from scratch, because at that point we'll be in the 2030s and the Holte End stand will be about 40 years old, so a bit of a heritage stand and potentially, if marketed well, an attraction in it's own right.
Witton Lane stand Make up any shortfall behind the planned 60k capacity through converting as much of the Witton Lane stand as possible to safe standing. It can't get any bigger than it is right now, so if that ends up being a case of doing a similar job - gutting the insides and starting from scratch - then maybe that's just a cost that has to be paid. Of course there's a lot let emotional attachment to the Herbert Stand, so it's possibly an easier one to knock down and start again if that works out cheaper (although since it can't be any bigger, there doesn't seem much point to me)
(not saying they would even consider this, it's just an example ...)
Post by: paul_e on March 20, 2023, 01:18:28 PM
**SHIT** just re-read that and you already said single tier, in which case I mostly agree but I think I'd do witton lane first because it's barely fit for purpose.
Post by: Steve67 on March 20, 2023, 05:13:34 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 20, 2023, 05:16:36 PM
Is the discussion around any safe standing areas off the agenda?
That's what rail seating is for.
Post by: Chris Harte on March 20, 2023, 05:38:59 PM
If they're looking at increasing capacity with the safe standing, excavating the Holte Suite downwards would open up a huge concourse area allowing extra space for people and the amenities required to pass any safety certificates.
Whether lowering the Holte Suite is technically feasible, I don't know.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 20, 2023, 07:36:12 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 20, 2023, 08:51:18 PM
I think they were/are on a 1:1 basis for the trial, and as PWS said there's other factors, e.g. amenities, which restrict the capacity.From what I remember, it depends on how they're installed ... but potentially you can up to a 50% capacity boost.Thats about it in terms of size, the extra seats come from installing rail seats.
Can you fit more with rail seats ?
The up to is the thing there, though. Fortunately to go from 50k to 60k you're looking at, what, an extra 20% ... so it might be possible but I'd guess would need extensive rail seating to be installed.
I think that is wrong.
In the UK they are only allowed on a 1:1 basis.
Read that somewhere the other day.
However, Telford Athletics Club are building rail seats on a 1:1.6 basis - a 60% increase Vs seating: https://www.fercoseating.com/projects/sports/telford-athletics-club
(Ferco seem to be the main supplier of rail seating in the UK)
This suggests that there might be an upper limit of 1:1.8 (80% increase) based on the current capacity guidelines for terracing in the lower leagues: https://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3
Now, I'd guess reaching the theoretical maximum (1:1.8 ) might be difficult bordering on impossible, just because you've got more rails, have to be able to convert it to seating etc. But it's conceivable that - provided the club were willing to put the investment in (which they seem to be) then a 60% increase, like Telford, might be possible. They might need to be willing to go as far as potentially gutting the innards of, say, the Witton Lane and Holte End to do that though, to deal with the safety issues.
But it's quite enticing to think that a 20k+ capacity Holte End might be on the cards... and not completely out of the question
Purslow mentioned 1:1.8 when the plans were announced.
Post by: Des Little on March 20, 2023, 09:56:28 PM
Post by: exigo on March 20, 2023, 10:03:40 PM
They're putting it in the upper Holte. I think that's what has been stated before anyway, it's certainly something MOMS has said.
It's definitely planned for the upper. Probably because there's more concourse space up there with the split level.
Without moving the Holte Suite, not sure you'd get significantly more people into the lower concourse safely.
Post by: TonyD on March 20, 2023, 10:37:23 PM
It makes sense.
Post by: not3bad on March 20, 2023, 10:39:32 PM
I like the addition of greenery at the rear of the North Stand. I think we should also be looking to incorporate wildlife areas around the villa live building.
Definitely doable: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/barcelona-football-camp-nou-stadium-animal-inhabitants-wildlife?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Post by: chrisw1 on March 21, 2023, 09:01:09 AM
New single tier Holte with rail seats. 20k.They won't be doing this.
It makes sense.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 21, 2023, 09:05:42 AM
I'm sure I've heard similar. I presume the only way to do this would be to regrade the concrete steps so the rows are closer together to squeeze more in. No way could 18 people stand where 10 seats are in the current rows, we're shoulder to shoulder already.
Purslow mentioned 1:1.8 when the plans were announced.
Post by: amfy on March 21, 2023, 10:12:01 AM
I'm sure I've heard similar. I presume the only way to do this would be to regrade the concrete steps so the rows are closer together to squeeze more in. No way could 18 people stand where 10 seats are in the current rows, we're shoulder to shoulder already.
Purslow mentioned 1:1.8 when the plans were announced.
They can’t make the rows closer together because there will still be pull down seats for the games that require seats. They’d maybe make the rows slightly wider if anything - people stand one behind the other.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 21, 2023, 10:16:26 AM
Post by: rob_bridge on March 21, 2023, 04:15:47 PM
I think a reset in the Witton Lane would be the best option if possible. After the North stand it is the next Stand that needs a proper upgrade
Agree - the upper especially is a very good viewing experience. Not much else.
Post by: London Villan on March 21, 2023, 04:21:51 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 21, 2023, 04:33:37 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 21, 2023, 04:36:37 PM
I don't think the demolition of the Witton is on the cards. That would mean changes to the road layout, buying houses etc. None of that has been mentioned in the long-term master plan. Once the North is rebuilt the footprint of the ground won't change. All of the improvements will happen within the current footprint and within the current stand structures.
I suppose it depends on the waiting list once we can hold 53,000.
Post by: London Villan on March 21, 2023, 04:42:25 PM
The Holte End has the space to improve the concourses, but how they'll increase the capacity of the Witton Lane - particularly the upper - without improving facilities hasn't been outlined yet.
Post by: Drummond on March 21, 2023, 04:52:22 PM
The master-plan is 60,000 - but that will be reached by the introduction of safe-standing, not by any new stands.
The Holte End has the space to improve the concourses, but how they'll increase the capacity of the Witton Lane - particularly the upper - without improving facilities hasn't been outlined yet.
Maybe they'd rebuild the Witton as all rail-seating.
Post by: LeeB on March 21, 2023, 05:25:48 PM
The master-plan is 60,000 - but that will be reached by the introduction of safe-standing, not by any new stands.
The Holte End has the space to improve the concourses, but how they'll increase the capacity of the Witton Lane - particularly the upper - without improving facilities hasn't been outlined yet.
Maybe they'd rebuild the Witton as all rail-seating.
The concourses and facilities are bad enough at present in there without adding extra numbers
Post by: algy on March 21, 2023, 05:38:10 PM
Post by: Drummond on March 21, 2023, 05:54:34 PM
The master-plan is 60,000 - but that will be reached by the introduction of safe-standing, not by any new stands.
The Holte End has the space to improve the concourses, but how they'll increase the capacity of the Witton Lane - particularly the upper - without improving facilities hasn't been outlined yet.
Maybe they'd rebuild the Witton as all rail-seating.
The concourses and facilities are bad enough at present in there without adding extra numbers
That's why they'd rebuild it. Ditch the corporate stuff, which will be in the new North and Trinity and just have fans in there.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 21, 2023, 06:26:14 PM
The master-plan is 60,000 - but that will be reached by the introduction of safe-standing, not by any new stands.
The Holte End has the space to improve the concourses, but how they'll increase the capacity of the Witton Lane - particularly the upper - without improving facilities hasn't been outlined yet.
Maybe they'd rebuild the Witton as all rail-seating.
The concourses and facilities are bad enough at present in there without adding extra numbers
That's why they'd rebuild it. Ditch the corporate stuff, which will be in the new North and Trinity and just have fans in there.
Would be ideal if we could sensitively address issues of local residents and extend our footprint over to the new academy and railway line.
It sounds kinda wrong but maybe if we bought out the homeowners and financed rehousing everybody in a way they’re all happy with, the sky and the local transport infrastructure is the limit.
My mate was buzzing when HS2 bought him out from his house in Gilson for 10% over market value.
Post by: SaddVillan on March 21, 2023, 06:31:18 PM
Higher - an additional tier - whilst it will increase capacity, there won't be alot of space for stairs/catering
Deeper - Two alternatives:
Out over Witton Lane - a la Trinity Road
Backwards on the road itself. But that will need the road to be rerouted onto the gardens.
More than likely that both options would meet objections from householders on Holte Road. The answer - buy them out? Think Liverpool did something similar when they expanded Anfield.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 21, 2023, 06:42:03 PM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Higher - an additional tier - whilst it will increase capacity, there won't be alot of space for stairs/catering
Deeper - Two alternatives:
Out over Witton Lane - a la Trinity Road
Backwards on the road itself. But that will need the road to be rerouted onto the gardens.
More than likely that both options would meet objections from householders on Holte Road. The answer - buy them out? Think Liverpool did something similar when they expanded Anfield.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, buying the houses as they became available, leaving them empty in an attempt to drive the others away by making the area uninhabitable.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 21, 2023, 06:52:48 PM
Post by: AV82EC on March 21, 2023, 06:54:09 PM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Higher - an additional tier - whilst it will increase capacity, there won't be alot of space for stairs/catering
Deeper - Two alternatives:
Out over Witton Lane - a la Trinity Road
Backwards on the road itself. But that will need the road to be rerouted onto the gardens.
More than likely that both options would meet objections from householders on Holte Road. The answer - buy them out? Think Liverpool did something similar when they expanded Anfield.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, buying the houses as they became available, leaving them empty in an attempt to drive the others away by making the area uninhabitable.
Yep a quite disgraceful way to treat their neighbours. The only fair way to do that is a compulsory purchase order through the council but the local councillors and residents would be up in arms and to my mind rightly so.
I’m with Algys plan to completely remodel the Holte into a single tier super stand holding 20k+ to get us to sixty. God knows how they’ll do it but that’s why we have engineers.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 21, 2023, 07:00:09 PM
Post by: SaddVillan on March 21, 2023, 07:23:15 PM
But then perhaps we wouldn't have had the beautiful mosaic on the gable end of the old Trinity.
Post by: paul_e on March 21, 2023, 07:40:18 PM
If only Villa Park had originally been built 50yds further along Trinity Road/Witton Lane, we'd have had plenty of room on both sides of the ground and the Holte would be properly squared off on the Trinity Rd side.
But then perhaps we wouldn't have had the beautiful mosaic on the gable end of the old Trinity.
It actually wouldn't help that much if you look at the site, Nelson road pinches in, which is why the north end of the trinity 'dips' in a little, to avoid blocking light for the houses on there. There's no configuration of the ground that you can fit in (without expanding the site) that offers significantly more space.
Post by: saunders_heroes on March 21, 2023, 08:19:44 PM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Higher - an additional tier - whilst it will increase capacity, there won't be alot of space for stairs/catering
Deeper - Two alternatives:
Out over Witton Lane - a la Trinity Road
Backwards on the road itself. But that will need the road to be rerouted onto the gardens.
More than likely that both options would meet objections from householders on Holte Road. The answer - buy them out? Think Liverpool did something similar when they expanded Anfield.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, buying the houses as they became available, leaving them empty in an attempt to drive the others away by making the area uninhabitable.
Didn’t we buy the houses on Witton Lane prior to the rebuild? Maybe we could do that again, but not the way Liverpool did it.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 21, 2023, 10:30:26 PM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Higher - an additional tier - whilst it will increase capacity, there won't be alot of space for stairs/catering
Deeper - Two alternatives:
Out over Witton Lane - a la Trinity Road
Backwards on the road itself. But that will need the road to be rerouted onto the gardens.
More than likely that both options would meet objections from householders on Holte Road. The answer - buy them out? Think Liverpool did something similar when they expanded Anfield.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, buying the houses as they became available, leaving them empty in an attempt to drive the others away by making the area uninhabitable.
Didn’t we buy the houses on Witton Lane prior to the rebuild? Maybe we could do that again, but not the way Liverpool did it.
What Liverpool did was pretty shitty, but other than buying them one by one, I am not sure how else we could do it?
Post by: DeKuip on March 21, 2023, 10:45:34 PM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Deeper? Wouldn’t be much of a view down there.
Post by: danno on March 21, 2023, 10:46:11 PM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Deeper? Wouldn’t be much of a view down there.
Periscopes
Post by: brontebilly on March 21, 2023, 10:51:35 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 12:28:32 AM
Post by: algy on March 22, 2023, 07:40:51 AM
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 08:58:51 AM
The only solutions if we want to increase capacity in the Witton Lane are to build higher or deeper.
Higher - an additional tier - whilst it will increase capacity, there won't be alot of space for stairs/catering
Deeper - Two alternatives:
Out over Witton Lane - a la Trinity Road
Backwards on the road itself. But that will need the road to be rerouted onto the gardens.
More than likely that both options would meet objections from householders on Holte Road. The answer - buy them out? Think Liverpool did something similar when they expanded Anfield.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, buying the houses as they became available, leaving them empty in an attempt to drive the others away by making the area uninhabitable.
Didn’t we buy the houses on Witton Lane prior to the rebuild? Maybe we could do that again, but not the way Liverpool did it.
What Liverpool did was pretty shitty, but other than buying them one by one, I am not sure how else we could do it?
Work with the council to obtain a compulsory purchase order and work with the community to offset the problem with investment into local problems. Liverpool went the other way and used their financial muscle to force people out and destroyed the community.
There's no nice way to quickly acquire a block of houses for redevelopment, there will always be reasons people don't want to leave but you can at least try to make the process as pain free as possible.
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 09:10:09 AM
There's no nice way to quickly acquire a block of houses for redevelopment, there will always be reasons people don't want to leave but you can at least try to make the process as pain free as possible.
I'm only guessing, but I think if you offered most people a decent uplift on the market value of their houses on that road and the chance to move to somewhere a bit nicer, they'd probably take it. The inconvenience they face when Villa are at home must be a right pain in the arse for all the local residents, it means on a Saturday from about 4.45 to at least 6pm, driving anywhere is going to take an hour longer than it usually would at least.
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 09:30:25 AM
There's no nice way to quickly acquire a block of houses for redevelopment, there will always be reasons people don't want to leave but you can at least try to make the process as pain free as possible.
I'm only guessing, but I think if you offered most people a decent uplift on the market value of their houses on that road and the chance to move to somewhere a bit nicer, they'd probably take it. The inconvenience they face when Villa are at home must be a right pain in the arse for all the local residents, it means on a Saturday from about 4.45 to at least 6pm, driving anywhere is going to take an hour longer than it usually would at least.
I agree, but there will still be some who don't want to go and handling those people properly is the important thing.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 22, 2023, 10:11:21 AM
There's no real way of putting a shine on it.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, and I wouldn't want us to do that, but ultimately, it's peoples' homes we're talking about.
I've no idea how compulsory purchase orders work with things like football stadiums, which are private businesses, rather than things like public infrastructure. Although having said that, we've done it before so it must be do-able in some way.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 22, 2023, 10:15:15 AM
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 10:31:56 AM
But at the end you are going to be forcing some of them to leave their homes against their will, so we can demolish them.
There's no real way of putting a shine on it.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, and I wouldn't want us to do that, but ultimately, it's peoples' homes we're talking about.
I've no idea how compulsory purchase orders work with things like football stadiums, which are private businesses, rather than things like public infrastructure. Although having said that, we've done it before so it must be do-able in some way.
The council can get involved if they can argue it's part of the regeneration of the area. I think Brentford council issued some CPOs for Brentford's new stadium.
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 10:38:07 AM
But at the end you are going to be forcing some of them to leave their homes against their will, so we can demolish them.
There's no real way of putting a shine on it.
Liverpool did it disgracefully, and I wouldn't want us to do that, but ultimately, it's peoples' homes we're talking about.
I've no idea how compulsory purchase orders work with things like football stadiums, which are private businesses, rather than things like public infrastructure. Although having said that, we've done it before so it must be do-able in some way.
The council can get involved if they can argue it's part of the regeneration of the area. I think Brentford council issued some CPOs for Brentford's new stadium.
Yep, this is why community engagement is an important part, the club would need to show that it is a positive influence on the area. The new academy is an important step in that regard, if we could find some way to fund a few other local projects as well it would help.
This isn't about putting a shine on it though, it's about making the best of a bad situation. People get put into this situation for all sorts of reasons and it's never great for them but there's still a range of things you can do and, personally, I'd prefer the club to be on the right end of that particular scale.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 22, 2023, 10:43:02 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on March 22, 2023, 10:51:08 AM
The way to do it would have been to responsibly buy them individually as they came available and let them out. But there will always be some who won't move / seek a ransom price so very difficult without CPO.
But we're probably getting ahead of ourselves. If the North takes us to 50k and standing adds another 2-3k, then I suspect that will be enough for a good while yet.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:55:36 AM
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 11:03:01 AM
House prices are a lot more than people think in this area too, this won't be £4o-£50k per house, you're looking at market prices of £170k ish for a 2-3 bed.
The way to do it would have been to responsibly buy them individually as they came available and let them out. But there will always be some who won't move / seek a ransom price so very difficult without CPO.
But we're probably getting ahead of ourselves. If the North takes us to 50k and standing adds another 2-3k, then I suspect that will be enough for a good while yet.
I don't think we are at all. This isn't something that the club can decide to do in 2026 and have the stand complete 18 months later, just getting a CPO could take years, if there's any thinking that we develop that stand then the planning has to be starting now. It's going to take 3-4 years from start to end for the new North stand and that's land we own with very little planning problems to consider. 10 years would be a fair estimate for the time for witton lane if we want to change the footprint/height it any meaningful way.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 22, 2023, 11:12:44 AM
THere's nothing supposedly about what Liverpool did. And your last sentence is exactly what Liverpool did. They were buying houses back in the 90s, and as soon as they bought them they put up the metal shutters and left them empty. Houses with nothing wrong with them were deliberately left neglected and empty for well over a decade and as they picked up more and more it had a negative effect on the area.
I'd imagine some of the housing around VP is social housing making it easier to get a sale. But even at Chris's estimate of £170K for a 3 bed for a private sale you could secure every house affected by the lack of sunlight for around £10 million, not to be sniffed at I know but not something that should frighten off further expansion in time if required.
i didn't know the full facts of what Liverpool did and agree it's very underhand at the very least and evil at worst. i'm sure it was seen for the greater good it was and if a minority has to suffer then that's a small downside they'd have to live with.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 22, 2023, 11:24:43 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 22, 2023, 11:28:53 AM
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 11:29:57 AM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.
Because if things like this weren't complicated, then there wouldn't be the need for CPOs. And once a CPO has been put in place successfully, they don't really have any other choice. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the reality of the situation.
Post by: algy on March 22, 2023, 11:48:01 AM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.Agree completely.
There has to be a better option than turfing people out of their homes. Aston exists for 365 days a year, not just the 20 or so times a year that 40,000 football supporters turn up.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 22, 2023, 11:58:35 AM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.Agree completely.
There has to be a better option than turfing people out of their homes. Aston exists for 365 days a year, not just the 20 or so times a year that 40,000 football supporters turn up.
Fortunately the "We were here first" attitude is diminishing, but there is still an element who think turning up for a couple of hours every other week means we should control what happens in the area. I don't think buying up the houses is viable, because there's a lot of them and the ones in Witton Lane were largely derelict anyway.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 12:04:50 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 12:05:05 PM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.Agree completely.
There has to be a better option than turfing people out of their homes. Aston exists for 365 days a year, not just the 20 or so times a year that 40,000 football supporters turn up.
Sometimes there isn't, that exactly why CPOs exist but also why there is a pretty high bar to getting one in place.
I agree on the other point, which is exactly why I believe the club has a responsibility to invest in the area as a 'payment' to the community for the disruption caused on those 20 odd days that the ground is in use (to cover things like the P!nk concert as well as matchdays).
Post by: Rico on March 22, 2023, 12:23:30 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 22, 2023, 12:27:32 PM
At the moment there is hardly any in there, mostly due to lack of space probably. Spending £50m on a new stand will only stack up financially if there is space for hospitality (rather than regular fans) and if there is demand for it (bearing in mind the new North Stand will add around 2000-3000 additional hospitality seat at various price levels).
Post by: olaftab on March 22, 2023, 12:48:56 PM
I'm only guessing, but I think if you offered most people a decent uplift on the market value of their houses on that road and the chance to move to somewhere a bit nicer, they'd probably take it. The inconvenience they face when Villa are at home must be a right pain in the arse for all the local residents, it means on a Saturday from about 4.45 to at least 6pm, driving anywhere is going to take an hour longer than it usually would at least.Wash your mouth out, what could be more nicer than living in the shadow of Villa park?
Anyway you are probably right. I know about 3 families who live in Holte road and McGregor close who keep talking about Villa offering em something decent for them to move out. Match days, although not as horrendous as 70s and 80s, are still a pain in the arse for them.
Post by: olaftab on March 22, 2023, 12:50:57 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 22, 2023, 12:53:01 PM
Getting back to work start on North stand being delayed due to Station issue, why don't the club carry on full speed ahead with rebuilt but actually restrict capacity to current level until station is upgraded?
It's likely the Council won't let them unless the improvements to public transport have been agreed.
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 12:57:56 PM
Getting back to work start on North stand being delayed due to Station issue, why don't the club carry on full speed ahead with rebuilt but actually restrict capacity to current level until station is upgraded?
Presumably they'd quite like the extra income that the bigger stand is supposed to bring in?!
Post by: dicedlam on March 22, 2023, 01:28:47 PM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.Agree completely.
There has to be a better option than turfing people out of their homes. Aston exists for 365 days a year, not just the 20 or so times a year that 40,000 football supporters turn up.
My thought too.
How can it be morally right to put a CPO in place for an event that happens every other week and never in the summer. We are talking about someone's family home here.
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 01:47:41 PM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.Agree completely.
There has to be a better option than turfing people out of their homes. Aston exists for 365 days a year, not just the 20 or so times a year that 40,000 football supporters turn up.
My thought too.
How can it be morally right to put a CPO in place for an event that happens every other week and never in the summer. We are talking about someone's family home here.
It happens all over the place for lots of reasons. I guess the club could argue that they're providing facilities and jobs that will benefit the local area. Perhaps the people living there would be happy to take more money than their house is worth and move somewhere nicer?
Post by: London Villan on March 22, 2023, 02:10:46 PM
Post by: Fasth56 on March 22, 2023, 02:11:45 PM
Post by: The Man With A Stick on March 22, 2023, 02:22:42 PM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 22, 2023, 02:31:12 PM
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 02:36:52 PM
I can't imagine there are many private enterprises that have CPO'd the best part of 150 houses... in terms of cost alone that would be £40m before the stand has been touched.
It wouldn't need to be anything like that number. The stand only goes halfway down the road, and you could conceivably leave the ones opposite the side of the Holte End alone. The ones on the other side of the Holte Road could also possibly remain, which means you'd be looking at about 20 houses.
Post by: Drummond on March 22, 2023, 02:43:14 PM
There's no point unless everyone wants to move. Ultimately, we're a football club, and whilst we may have been a bedrock of the local community when we were first formed, these days I suspect many of the local residents see it as an inconvenience for up to 25 (haha, yeah right, 19 plus maybe one cup game) times a year. Should we get Champions League football, the disruption grows, the willingness to move may grow too, as then we're into potentially 40 games a year which is a lot of disruption.
It's a really tricky situation to be in.
Post by: Drummond on March 22, 2023, 02:45:36 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 22, 2023, 02:47:05 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 22, 2023, 02:58:35 PM
Post by: dicedlam on March 22, 2023, 03:09:30 PM
Why should they have to live with it? It's people's lives you're talking about here.Agree completely.
There has to be a better option than turfing people out of their homes. Aston exists for 365 days a year, not just the 20 or so times a year that 40,000 football supporters turn up.
My thought too.
How can it be morally right to put a CPO in place for an event that happens every other week and never in the summer. We are talking about someone's family home here.
It happens all over the place for lots of reasons. I guess the club could argue that they're providing facilities and jobs that will benefit the local area. Perhaps the people living there would be happy to take more money than their house is worth and move somewhere nicer?
For critical government infrastructure I can understand, but not for private enterprise.
As Drummond said, there is more to it than someone coming along and offering you 10% over the market value for your property. There are lot of families in the Asian community that rely on each other, none more so than for safety reasons.
I could well imagine the kind reception they would receive in some areas of Brum that, let's just say, aren't so welcoming.
Post by: Risso on March 22, 2023, 03:32:18 PM
For critical government infrastructure I can understand, but not for private enterprise.
As Drummond said, there is more to it than someone coming along and offering you 10% over the market value for your property. There are lot of families in the Asian community that rely on each other, none more so than for safety reasons.
I could well imagine the kind reception they would receive in some areas of Brum that, let's just say, aren't so welcoming.
CPOs were in place for developments including Brentford, Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea. Blackpool are considering if they'll need to use one for nearly 30 houses if a negotiated deal can't be finalised.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 22, 2023, 03:47:45 PM
I wonder if it would be cheaper to pay for the road to be lowered so that a new stand could be built over it?
That reminded me for some reason of "Raise the Titanic? It would have been cheaper to lower the Atlantic".
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 04:08:31 PM
Post by: Des Little on March 22, 2023, 04:20:23 PM
Post by: algy on March 22, 2023, 04:46:19 PM
To go back a bit, because this thread has got away from the original point which was whether there were better ways to go about things to allow stadium expansion than what Liverpool did. No one thinks a CPO is perfect or that there won't be some residents would be unhappy but it's clearly a better way of doing things and is the ONLY thing the club should be looking at if the decision is that we need that space to expand the ground.I'd wonder if that was likely in the foreseeable future, though.
- The North Stand & Trinity Road stand improvements will take us to 50k.
- If we do go for something approaching 1:1.8 rail seating for the Holte End, that will take Villa Park up to 60k - which is the stated ambition - without needing to change the footprint.
Maybe if we get to a point when we need a stadium that holds much more than 60k, we might have to start looking at other options. But that's a long way off.
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 04:48:44 PM
To go back a bit, because this thread has got away from the original point which was whether there were better ways to go about things to allow stadium expansion than what Liverpool did. No one thinks a CPO is perfect or that there won't be some residents would be unhappy but it's clearly a better way of doing things and is the ONLY thing the club should be looking at if the decision is that we need that space to expand the ground.I'd wonder if that was likely in the foreseeable future, though.
- The North Stand & Trinity Road stand improvements will take us to 50k.
- If we do go for something approaching 1:1.8 rail seating for the Holte End, that will take Villa Park up to 60k - which is the stated ambition - without needing to change the footprint.
Maybe if we get to a point when we need a stadium that holds much more than 60k, we might have to start looking at other options. But that's a long way off.
I think the bold bit is a big assumption. That may be 1 option but I'd suggest it's more likely that we'd make improvements to both the holte and witton lane to make up that number.
Post by: algy on March 22, 2023, 05:13:27 PM
Well, either way we get to 60k without changing the footprint of the ground.To go back a bit, because this thread has got away from the original point which was whether there were better ways to go about things to allow stadium expansion than what Liverpool did. No one thinks a CPO is perfect or that there won't be some residents would be unhappy but it's clearly a better way of doing things and is the ONLY thing the club should be looking at if the decision is that we need that space to expand the ground.I'd wonder if that was likely in the foreseeable future, though.
- The North Stand & Trinity Road stand improvements will take us to 50k.
- If we do go for something approaching 1:1.8 rail seating for the Holte End, that will take Villa Park up to 60k - which is the stated ambition - without needing to change the footprint.
Maybe if we get to a point when we need a stadium that holds much more than 60k, we might have to start looking at other options. But that's a long way off.
I think the bold bit is a big assumption. That may be 1 option but I'd suggest it's more likely that we'd make improvements to both the holte and witton lane to make up that number.
But I still think a 24k capacity, single tier, rail seated Holte End is the best solution to our problem. It’s not that much to ask for a stand that’s bigger than 58 of the other 91 league club’s entire grounds, is it?
Post by: Drummond on March 22, 2023, 05:14:38 PM
I think talk of 60k is premature.
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2023, 05:50:31 PM
Let's see where 50k gets us. It's a good number and should last a little while; until we are challenging properly at least.
I think talk of 60k is premature.
It is, but as I said earlier, it's something that will take a long time to do if the choice is to upgrade that stand and add extra capacity and facilities. If the club is even considering it then they need to be making plans now, not when we're selling out a 50k stadium with a 15-20k backlog on season tickets.
Post by: OCD on March 22, 2023, 05:51:15 PM
Post by: eamonn on March 22, 2023, 06:39:29 PM
Maybe lets ask them first :)
If you want, head down and go knocking on their door, they'll tell you to fcuk off ;)
Post by: eamonn on March 22, 2023, 06:41:17 PM
I'm pretty pissed off that I may lose my seat of 20+ years in the Holte with the introduction of safe standing. So I can't imagine how people would feel when someone rocks up with a CPO to take their home.
Yeah, but what if we promised your own plus coporate seat at...Stamford Bridge? Can't say fairer than that as an upgrade (whistley-emoji from H&V forum version: circa 2005-2010)
Post by: Zouch Villa on March 22, 2023, 06:55:09 PM
Post by: Londonvilla on March 22, 2023, 08:42:43 PM
My take is that rails seats have to be part of the future to improve the atmosphere, as the cost of season tickets means a lot of hardcore fans are being priced out of the game.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 08:44:33 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 08:48:49 PM
Post by: Londonvilla on March 22, 2023, 09:22:10 PM
Why do you think rail seats will be cheaper?
You can get more people into the available space
Post by: Mellin on March 22, 2023, 09:30:20 PM
You might be right, but 9 times out of 10...fatter margins.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 09:31:40 PM
Why do you think rail seats will be cheaper?
You can get more people into the available space
In the old days, yeah. Not now. I don't see anywhere that's introduced it at a higher rate than one seat = one standing.
Post by: Londonvilla on March 22, 2023, 09:54:21 PM
I wish that was how capitalism worked.
You might be right, but 9 times out of 10...fatter margins.
Lol.... you may be right ....does anyone know the cost of rail seats at Celtic?
Post by: Londonvilla on March 22, 2023, 09:57:42 PM
Why do you think rail seats will be cheaper?
You can get more people into the available space
In the old days, yeah. Not now. I don't see anywhere that's introduced it at a higher rate than one seat = one standing.
From google
"What are the benefits of rail seating?
Efficient use of space
By replacing traditional seating with rail seats, clubs can increase capacity without having to expand their stadium."
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 10:00:17 PM
Quote
Most Premier League teams rank outside the top 50. Only Brighton and Aston Villa join Everton and Brentford in the top 50, placing 44th and 47th respectively. Newcastle United and Leeds United are in the bottom four of the table.
Last year's Premier League champions Manchester City are in 71st.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65038179
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:05:34 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 10:09:20 PM
Why do you think rail seats will be cheaper?
You can get more people into the available space
In the old days, yeah. Not now. I don't see anywhere that's introduced it at a higher rate than one seat = one standing.
From google
"What are the benefits of rail seating?
Efficient use of space
By replacing traditional seating with rail seats, clubs can increase capacity without having to expand their stadium."
Quote
Ronnie Hawthorn, Head of Safety, Security and Operations, Celtic FC
"Rail seating is not a panacea for all of football's problems but the logic is this: you have a 900mm bar in front of your seat, every person has a seat or a standing area, so it is really still an all-seated stadium. It’s just that we can put it into standing mode. Numbers don’t go up, in fact, maybe much to the annoyance of some of colleagues on the commercial side, they’ve actually slightly gone down due to the double walkways we’ve put in there
Post by: Rory on March 22, 2023, 10:15:14 PM
All I know is that in the Lower Holte you have to stand whenever anybody wants to get past anyway, eliciting tuts and sighs from those behind.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:18:42 PM
This may be a stupid question, but are there actually seats in rail seating? If so, how is the set-up different to when fans stand now? Or is it more of a culture thing, to make standing acceptable?
All I know is that in the Lower Holte you have to stand whenever anybody wants to get past anyway, eliciting tuts and sighs from those behind.
Yes, there are seats
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Safe_standing_area_fitted_with_rail_seats.jpg)
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:21:40 PM
(https://www.expressandstar.com/resizer/Mo5iuPXXYX4oX4ujGCOOgO0T3sw=/1200x0/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mna/DOXLY6UQIVG73A4KIESNEUAMCA.jpg)
Post by: Rory on March 22, 2023, 10:31:06 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 22, 2023, 10:39:16 PM
So could it just be a case of throwing rails onto the back of existing seats? I'm just not entirely sure I understand the need for rail seating if it doesn't create extra capacity.
It allows people to stand safely, I guess.
Post by: Rory on March 22, 2023, 10:42:35 PM
So could it just be a case of throwing rails onto the back of existing seats? I'm just not entirely sure I understand the need for rail seating if it doesn't create extra capacity.
It allows people to stand safely, I guess.
Fair enough. I prefer standing at games anyway, so it's fine by me.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 10:43:37 PM
I'll love to see it, I think it can only benefit the atmosphere, but I can't see it being allowed to increase capacity. It'll be one seat, one bum, be it sat down or stood up.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:45:02 PM
Post by: Rory on March 22, 2023, 10:51:32 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:55:10 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FK7Iq0cXMAM4fxZ?format=jpg&name=small)
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2023, 10:56:53 PM
In that case, I'm all for it. As long as there are plenty of drums and trumpets for LeeB.
Rail Dube seats. Everyone has a drum that way.
Post by: Rory on March 22, 2023, 10:57:50 PM
Nothing staged here, pure coincidence so many are looking at the camera
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FK7Iq0cXMAM4fxZ?format=jpg&name=small)
Looks like one bloke photoshopped in multiple positions.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 22, 2023, 11:10:09 PM
In that case, I'm all for it. As long as there are plenty of drums and trumpets for LeeB.
I took the missus for her first time to see the women play on Sunday.
"Is that a drum? They've got a drum. You never told me I could bring a drum. Why didn't you tell me I could bring a drum?"
"Because you're not bringing a drum!"
*Awkward silence for 30 seconds*
"...Is that a kazoo?...”
Post by: olaftab on March 23, 2023, 04:50:05 AM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 23, 2023, 06:50:13 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_standing
Quote
Bolt-on seats
Several clubs adapt their grounds to UEFA all-seater requirements by bolting temporary seats to the steps of otherwise essentially conventional terraces and removing the crush barriers. After the UEFA match, the seats are then removed again and the barriers put back. Stadiums that operate in this way include those of Schalke 04, Borussia Dortmund and Borussia Mönchengladbach.
Post by: algy on March 23, 2023, 06:53:39 AM
If seating/standing is 1:1 than how come Signal Iduna Park capacity goes from 66K to 81K when standing is allowed at domestic matches ?The photos were of 1:1 rail seating, which in that form won't increase capacity. But you can also do it like this:
(https://www.fercoseating.com/files/styles/hero_slider_mobile_wide/public/background_image/hero_upload/3.railseatsintelfordwithuniqueintermediatesteps.jpg?itok=V1V7ww1W)
(at Telford Athletics Club, 1:1.6 rail seats)
(https://www.fercoseating.com/files/inline-images/imported/_400x224_6.exampleoftheintermediatestepconceptona760mmdeepseatingrow.png)
In that form, you fit 2 rows of terrace for every row of seats. I'd guess that it'd be more expensive than a straight seats -> rail seats conversion, and you'd probably lose a bit of seating capacity as I guess you'd need to allow more room for seats. But I'd take a wild stab - if that's 1:1.6 in that form, and the theoretical maximum seating -> terracing is 1:1.8, that you lose about 12% seating capacity in that form (can't be arsed showing working out). So a 10k capacity stand now would hold 8.8k seating or 14.2k standing.
Personally I don't see the point in the club spending money on rail seating if it doesn't increase capacity. There was some suggestion that in it's present form it's actually decreased capacity, which makes no commercial sense as far as the club goes. *But* if it were possible to add 10k to the capacity without changing the footprint of the ground ... that makes sense to me.
Post by: Dave P on March 23, 2023, 09:13:35 AM
I put this here as I think hearing opposition fans' points of view is important.
Decent watch that was and hard to argue with many of the points.
Post by: algy on March 23, 2023, 11:46:23 AM
Yeah, good video and some fair points.I put this here as I think hearing opposition fans' points of view is important.
Decent watch that was and hard to argue with many of the points.
Often think the atmosphere is a bit odd - maybe this is the same with most clubs, I don't know. Like, there's not that much noise, it's just this sort of intense feeling to it. But then, when it's good, it's unbeatable. And you can have both things in the same game. I took my daughter to see the home game against Brighton last season and it was mad, most of the first half it was the tense. Then for no apparent reason, around the 75min mark, everything started to build up ... then we scored a couple of goals later on, and the whole place seemed to have this relief of tension and get a bit noisy, it was great (though my little girl was struggling a bit with just how loud it was!
I dunno, you have games where the atmosphere is just really tense, not noisy or anything - just tense. Then you get others like the Atletico Madrid game as a really obvious example where it's just incessantly rowdy and generally amazing.
I think the Project B6 stuff is quite interesting in as much as I'd assume they're trying to get that feeling *all* the time, but then I'm not sure that's actually possible. Not every game is like that one against Tranmere Rovers in 94, where it's a semi-final and we had to do something, but probably most folk believed that we were capable of beating them 2-0 so were generally up for shouting a lot in the hope that being noisy would coax the ball in to the net! But then what made it was that it wasn't 2-0 ... we went 2-0 up, then Aldridge scored, so the tension wasn't released and everyone was still trying to will the ball in to the net until the 88th minute, when BFR's son scored. I mean, we all know the story, right? But you simply don't get games which are on a knife edge for the whole thing AND there's a load riding on them that often.
Post by: olaftab on March 23, 2023, 02:36:29 PM
Thanks mate, very informative however I would like to see the working out please? ;DIf seating/standing is 1:1 than how come Signal Iduna Park capacity goes from 66K to 81K when standing is allowed at domestic matches ?The photos were of 1:1 rail seating, which in that form won't increase capacity. But you can also do it like this:
(https://www.fercoseating.com/files/styles/hero_slider_mobile_wide/public/background_image/hero_upload/3.railseatsintelfordwithuniqueintermediatesteps.jpg?itok=V1V7ww1W)
(at Telford Athletics Club, 1:1.6 rail seats)
(https://www.fercoseating.com/files/inline-images/imported/_400x224_6.exampleoftheintermediatestepconceptona760mmdeepseatingrow.png)
In that form, you fit 2 rows of terrace for every row of seats. I'd guess that it'd be more expensive than a straight seats -> rail seats conversion, and you'd probably lose a bit of seating capacity as I guess you'd need to allow more room for seats. But I'd take a wild stab - if that's 1:1.6 in that form, and the theoretical maximum seating -> terracing is 1:1.8, that you lose about 12% seating capacity in that form (can't be arsed showing working out). So a 10k capacity stand now would hold 8.8k seating or 14.2k standing.
Personally I don't see the point in the club spending money on rail seating if it doesn't increase capacity. There was some suggestion that in it's present form it's actually decreased capacity, which makes no commercial sense as far as the club goes. *But* if it were possible to add 10k to the capacity without changing the footprint of the ground ... that makes sense to me.
Post by: SaddVillan on March 23, 2023, 06:05:21 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
Post by: SaddVillan on March 23, 2023, 06:09:55 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 23, 2023, 06:34:31 PM
Bit of background on the Liverpool CPOs:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
Absolutely grim reading, that.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 23, 2023, 06:47:10 PM
Post by: eamonn on March 23, 2023, 07:42:32 PM
Post by: RamboandBruno on March 23, 2023, 10:06:37 PM
I put this here as I think hearing opposition fans' points of view is important.
Decent watch that was and hard to argue with many of the points.
I enjoyed that video, came across a good lads.
Post by: RamboandBruno on March 23, 2023, 10:20:46 PM
Bit of background on the Liverpool CPOs:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn
Absolutely grim reading, that.
It is indeed, I sincerely hope we don’t act in a similar way over the coming years.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 23, 2023, 10:28:09 PM
I dont remember much outrage about it was the story not picked up by the main news outlets or are they all run by Redshite fans ?
It was quite well covered at the time.
The Guardian covers any definition of main news outlet surely?
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 23, 2023, 10:40:44 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 23, 2023, 10:50:12 PM
I dont remember much outrage about it was the story not picked up by the main news outlets or are they all run by Redshite fans ?
It was quite well covered at the time.
Their acquisition of the houses was discussed on here and I'm pretty sure I posted a link to the article back then.
Post by: eamonn on March 23, 2023, 10:59:50 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 23, 2023, 11:04:58 PM
Just don't remember seeing it on the news or the red tops screaming about it.
"Wealthy organisation shits on those with no voice" isn't really the kind of thing the tabloids are into. "Greedy immigrant dole scum blocking Liverpool's path back to glory", now there's a headline.
Post by: olaftab on March 24, 2023, 05:28:59 AM
Post by: algy on March 24, 2023, 07:13:38 AM
It’s quite horrid living in a mid terraced house with empty houses all around you. I did or my family did that for about 10 years till I was 14 before we moved out. Empty houses are infested with almost everything including unpleasant humans who keep threatening to do you harm if you told the council. There is more or less no security and supplies to the house gas electricity and water are continuously disrupted. You can’t do normal stuff which you actually don’t realise is normal till you move out. For example we never installed an outside TV aerial because there was a worry that someone will break in and steal the TV… etc etc. So I feel for the real victims of LFC owners greed.When I was living in Liverpool, I went to go and see a bedsit to rent on edge lane, just seeing it was pretty cheap and not really knowing the area. Was properly grim, got off the bus then walked down an entire street of tinned up houses, turned the corner and literally of the 20 or so houses before I got to the one I was going to see, 18 were empty, tinned up, looked like they'd seen fires. The houses on the other side of the street hadn't done any better for themselves. Got to the house, knocked in the door, it opened and I swear the door was solid metal and about 6 inches thick, like something you'd get in a prison. Had a look around, it was alright I suppose, not sure it's somewhere you'd choose to live though. The guy asked if I had any questions, at this point really I just wanted to get back home, so I just asked "so ... Um ... do you get much trouble here?" Bloke just says "did you not see the street outside?" Or words to that effect.
It was mad, there's no way I'd wish someone to live in that environment and it's an absolute disgrace that Liverpool FC have not just allowed that to happen, been the main cause of it.
P.s. I tried to show my workings last night, couldn't work out how I'd done it in the first place - I was probably talking bollocks, albeit well intended.
Post by: Risso on March 24, 2023, 10:24:04 AM
It’s quite horrid living in a mid terraced house with empty houses all around you. I did or my family did that for about 10 years till I was 14 before we moved out. Empty houses are infested with almost everything including unpleasant humans who keep threatening to do you harm if you told the council. There is more or less no security and supplies to the house gas electricity and water are continuously disrupted. You can’t do normal stuff which you actually don’t realise is normal till you move out. For example we never installed an outside TV aerial because there was a worry that someone will break in and steal the TV… etc etc. So I feel for the real victims of LFC owners greed.When I was living in Liverpool, I went to go and see a bedsit to rent on edge lane, just seeing it was pretty cheap and not really knowing the area. Was properly grim, got off the bus then walked down an entire street of tinned up houses, turned the corner and literally of the 20 or so houses before I got to the one I was going to see, 18 were empty, tinned up, looked like they'd seen fires. The houses on the other side of the street hadn't done any better for themselves. Got to the house, knocked in the door, it opened and I swear the door was solid metal and about 6 inches thick, like something you'd get in a prison. Had a look around, it was alright I suppose, not sure it's somewhere you'd choose to live though. The guy asked if I had any questions, at this point really I just wanted to get back home, so I just asked "so ... Um ... do you get much trouble here?" Bloke just says "did you not see the street outside?" Or words to that effect.
It was mad, there's no way I'd wish someone to live in that environment and it's an absolute disgrace that Liverpool FC have not just allowed that to happen, been the main cause of it.
P.s. I tried to show my workings last night, couldn't work out how I'd done it in the first place - I was probably talking bollocks, albeit well intended.
Edge Lane was crazy. Hundreds of massive old townhouses that if they were in a posh bit of London would be worth tens of millions. Nearly all boarded up, and on probably the busiest main road through the city as it joins up with the M62. Drove that way dozens of times as it led to where we'd get the ferry to/from the IOM, and it gave a terrible impression of the city. I think the houses have nearly all been demolished now.
Post by: LeeB on March 24, 2023, 11:11:31 AM
Post by: OCD on March 24, 2023, 11:38:04 AM
"If Liverpool had been honest from the beginning, said they wanted our houses to expand their ground, we're realistic, we know they're a huge football club, most of us support them, deals could have been done. Instead they were underhand, blighted the area and we've had to live like this for years."
I hope our owners act with more integrity and transparency if we find ourselves in a similar situation in the coming years.
Post by: FatSam on March 24, 2023, 11:55:00 AM
I thought this quote summarised the article well.I think that's the critical thing. The fact is that if done well, redevelopment of the ground has the capacity to improve the area for the benefit of the wider community. It is important that the club are upfront and honest about their intentions, and there is currently no reason to believe that they aren't being. Any redevelopment of Witton Lane is clearly in the long term, and dependent on a whole range of factors, such as continuing success and demand for tickets, and wider infrastructural improvements being delivered.
"If Liverpool had been honest from the beginning, said they wanted our houses to expand their ground, we're realistic, we know they're a huge football club, most of us support them, deals could have been done. Instead they were underhand, blighted the area and we've had to live like this for years."
I hope our owners act with more integrity and transparency if we find ourselves in a similar situation in the coming years.
Post by: Drummond on March 24, 2023, 11:59:28 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 24, 2023, 12:35:56 PM
Post by: Risso on March 24, 2023, 12:37:25 PM
I seem to remember seeing a documentary on a rundown street in Bootle where you could buy the house for a £1 but you had to renovate it, quite a good watch actually
That's been quite common in rundown areas of the country. It's just a nominal amount so that there's consideration, in the legal sense.
Post by: AV82EC on March 24, 2023, 12:51:18 PM
I seem to remember seeing a documentary on a rundown street in Bootle where you could buy the house for a £1 but you had to renovate it, quite a good watch actually
That's been quite common in rundown areas of the country. It's just a nominal amount so that there's consideration, in the legal sense.
Yeah there was one in Salford done for ex veterans I think.
Post by: placeforparks on March 24, 2023, 12:58:15 PM
Chelsea had a battle a couple of years ago didn't they? I'm sure I read about people who had flats that would suddenly be in the dark because of the size of a proposed new stand.
the issue was rights to light. the club agreed to compensate most of the affected occupiers and 'buy' this from them. one property (£4m value house) held out by taking out an injunction. the local authority (hammersmith and fulham) ended up extinguishing the right through the planning acts and the property received statutory compensation.
from memory, chelsea offered them £1m, and the statutory compensation was far less.
unlike the liverpool case, where people were effectively bullied out of the properties, the chelsea case was pure dick swinging.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 24, 2023, 01:40:28 PM
Just don't remember seeing it on the news or the red tops screaming about it.
"Wealthy organisation shits on those with no voice" isn't really the kind of thing the tabloids are into. "Greedy immigrant dole scum blocking Liverpool's path back to glory", now there's a headline.
"Fiends with Benefits" would be snappier.
Post by: Drummond on March 24, 2023, 01:54:45 PM
Chelsea had a battle a couple of years ago didn't they? I'm sure I read about people who had flats that would suddenly be in the dark because of the size of a proposed new stand.
the issue was rights to light. the club agreed to compensate most of the affected occupiers and 'buy' this from them. one property (£4m value house) held out by taking out an injunction. the local authority (hammersmith and fulham) ended up extinguishing the right through the planning acts and the property received statutory compensation.
from memory, chelsea offered them £1m, and the statutory compensation was far less.
unlike the liverpool case, where people were effectively bullied out of the properties, the chelsea case was pure dick swinging.
Ah, yes thanks for that clarity!
Post by: chrisw1 on March 24, 2023, 01:57:43 PM
Post by: Ads on March 24, 2023, 05:03:11 PM
It’s quite horrid living in a mid terraced house with empty houses all around you. I did or my family did that for about 10 years till I was 14 before we moved out. Empty houses are infested with almost everything including unpleasant humans who keep threatening to do you harm if you told the council. There is more or less no security and supplies to the house gas electricity and water are continuously disrupted. You can’t do normal stuff which you actually don’t realise is normal till you move out. For example we never installed an outside TV aerial because there was a worry that someone will break in and steal the TV… etc etc. So I feel for the real victims of LFC owners greed.When I was living in Liverpool, I went to go and see a bedsit to rent on edge lane, just seeing it was pretty cheap and not really knowing the area. Was properly grim, got off the bus then walked down an entire street of tinned up houses, turned the corner and literally of the 20 or so houses before I got to the one I was going to see, 18 were empty, tinned up, looked like they'd seen fires. The houses on the other side of the street hadn't done any better for themselves. Got to the house, knocked in the door, it opened and I swear the door was solid metal and about 6 inches thick, like something you'd get in a prison. Had a look around, it was alright I suppose, not sure it's somewhere you'd choose to live though. The guy asked if I had any questions, at this point really I just wanted to get back home, so I just asked "so ... Um ... do you get much trouble here?" Bloke just says "did you not see the street outside?" Or words to that effect.
It was mad, there's no way I'd wish someone to live in that environment and it's an absolute disgrace that Liverpool FC have not just allowed that to happen, been the main cause of it.
P.s. I tried to show my workings last night, couldn't work out how I'd done it in the first place - I was probably talking bollocks, albeit well intended.
Edge Lane was crazy. Hundreds of massive old townhouses that if they were in a posh bit of London would be worth tens of millions. Nearly all boarded up, and on probably the busiest main road through the city as it joins up with the M62. Drove that way dozens of times as it led to where we'd get the ferry to/from the IOM, and it gave a terrible impression of the city. I think the houses have nearly all been demolished now.
If I drive into work I use Edge Lane. Just the old Littlewoods site that's left derelict on there now.
Post by: olaftab on March 24, 2023, 05:05:18 PM
P.s. I tried to show my workings last night, couldn't work out how I'd done it in the first place - I was probably talking bollocks, albeit well intended.That’s too bad and I have reduced your grade from A* to A.
Post by: London Villan on March 24, 2023, 06:01:49 PM
Post by: Gareth on April 12, 2023, 01:16:01 PM
Post by: DB on April 12, 2023, 01:40:59 PM
Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bid
Best get the Expansion and new facilities down then.
Post by: Drummond on April 12, 2023, 01:55:05 PM
I find it strange that Hampden gets the gigs when there are three larger stadia in Scotland.
Post by: algy on April 12, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bidFinal list of grounds:
Wembley (London)
Tottenham Hotspur Stadium (London)
Villa Park (B6)
Everton Stadium / Bramley-Moore Docks (Liverpool)
The Emptihad Stadium (Manchester)
St James' Park (Newcastle)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Millennium Stadium (Cardiff)
Post by: Nev on April 12, 2023, 02:12:36 PM
Much like "Super Stadium for NEC" in the Mail back in the 80's.
Post by: Drummond on April 12, 2023, 02:14:23 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 12, 2023, 02:18:20 PM
The BBC has our capacity listed as 52,190.
That's what it will be post new North Stand and other tweaks.
Post by: FatSam on April 12, 2023, 02:26:04 PM
The BBC has our capacity listed as 52,190.
That's what it will be post new North Stand and other tweaks.
Yes, I wonder if that means that there is a firm commitment to make those other alterations as well.
Post by: Axl Rose on April 12, 2023, 02:46:11 PM
Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bidFinal list of grounds:
Wembley (London)
Tottenham Hotspur Stadium (London)
Villa Park (B6)
Everton Stadium / Bramley-Moore Docks (Liverpool)
The Emptihad Stadium (Manchester)
St James' Park (Newcastle)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Millennium Stadium (Cardiff)
The Emptihad. What a soulless dump
Post by: chrisw1 on April 12, 2023, 03:00:26 PM
It's a pretty sensible list. Murrayfield would have made more sense than Hampden park both capacity and quality wise, but I guess the Scottish FA prefer to play at Hampden. Casement is also tiny and possibly should have given way to another Scottish ground?Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bidFinal list of grounds:
Wembley (London)
Tottenham Hotspur Stadium (London)
Villa Park (B6)
Everton Stadium / Bramley-Moore Docks (Liverpool)
The Emptihad Stadium (Manchester)
St James' Park (Newcastle)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Millennium Stadium (Cardiff)
Post by: Risso on April 12, 2023, 03:04:04 PM
It's a pretty sensible list. Murrayfield would have made more sense than Hampden park both capacity and quality wise, but I guess the Scottish FA prefer to play at Hampden. Casement is also tiny and possibly should have given way to another Scottish ground?Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bidFinal list of grounds:
Wembley (London)
Tottenham Hotspur Stadium (London)
Villa Park (B6)
Everton Stadium / Bramley-Moore Docks (Liverpool)
The Emptihad Stadium (Manchester)
St James' Park (Newcastle)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Millennium Stadium (Cardiff)
I guess they feel they have to have a Northern Ireland stadium, and that's the biggest. It also exceeds the minimum 30K capacity required by UEFA.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 12, 2023, 03:06:12 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 12, 2023, 03:08:37 PM
Isn't Casement Park currently unused and a bit of a dump, so their incusion is based on a lot of redevelopment?
Yes, including it means they've also got na NI stadium but the redevelopment doesn't seem to be progressing so I'm far from convinced it will be ready.
Post by: eamonn on April 12, 2023, 03:10:36 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 12, 2023, 03:11:42 PM
The BBC has our capacity listed as 52,190.
That's what it will be post new North Stand and other tweaks.
Yes, I wonder if that means that there is a firm commitment to make those other alterations as well.
Wasn't it just above 50k in that detailed planning doc they made available a few months back?
Post by: Brend'Watkins on April 12, 2023, 03:12:47 PM
Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bidFinal list of grounds:
Wembley (London)
Tottenham Hotspur Stadium (London)
Villa Park (B6)
Everton Stadium / Bramley-Moore Docks (Liverpool)
The Emptihad Stadium (Manchester)
St James' Park (Newcastle)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Millennium Stadium (Cardiff)
The Emptihad. What a soulless dump
Quite funny that a council house is preferred to the Theater of Dreams though.
Post by: Pat Mustard on April 12, 2023, 03:13:42 PM
Surprised/happy to see that Old Trafford/Anfield/Emirates etc. aren't on the list. How come? Or were they not interested?
Old Trafford is a dump, but also they can't guarantee it will be available as they have tentative redevelopment plans that could clash. Anfield doesn't have a large enough pitch, and Emirates didn't make the cut as London already has 2 larger stadiums included.
Post by: Drummond on April 12, 2023, 04:02:52 PM
The BBC has our capacity listed as 52,190.
That's what it will be post new North Stand and other tweaks.
Yes, I wonder if that means that there is a firm commitment to make those other alterations as well.
Wasn't it just above 50k in that detailed planning doc they made available a few months back?
That's what I thought, seemed like there was another couple of thousand added to hget to 52
Post by: FatSam on April 12, 2023, 04:08:35 PM
Murrayfield would have made more sense than Hampden park both capacity and quality wise, but I guess the Scottish FA prefer to play at Hampden.I suppose they own Hampden, so have an interest in seeing that it is used.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 12, 2023, 04:10:35 PM
It's really shit though. Maybe they'll spend some money on it but really it needs knocking down.Murrayfield would have made more sense than Hampden park both capacity and quality wise, but I guess the Scottish FA prefer to play at Hampden.I suppose they own Hampden, so have an interest in seeing that it is used.
Post by: Smirker on April 12, 2023, 05:14:19 PM
Villa Park 8)
Post by: brontebilly on April 12, 2023, 06:37:02 PM
THere's nothing supposedly about what Liverpool did. And your last sentence is exactly what Liverpool did. They were buying houses back in the 90s, and as soon as they bought them they put up the metal shutters and left them empty. Houses with nothing wrong with them were deliberately left neglected and empty for well over a decade and as they picked up more and more it had a negative effect on the area.
That's disgusting really. Like something the mafia might do. I'd hope our club wouldn't stoop so low to employ such tactics.
Post by: tomd2103 on April 13, 2023, 01:32:12 AM
It's a pretty sensible list. Murrayfield would have made more sense than Hampden park both capacity and quality wise, but I guess the Scottish FA prefer to play at Hampden. Casement is also tiny and possibly should have given way to another Scottish ground?Villa Park included in the final 10 grounds submitted for the Euro 2028 bidFinal list of grounds:
Wembley (London)
Tottenham Hotspur Stadium (London)
Villa Park (B6)
Everton Stadium / Bramley-Moore Docks (Liverpool)
The Emptihad Stadium (Manchester)
St James' Park (Newcastle)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Millennium Stadium (Cardiff)
I guess they feel they have to have a Northern Ireland stadium, and that's the biggest. It also exceeds the minimum 30K capacity required by UEFA.
Would have to have a NI one wouldn't they if it's a joint UK & Rep. of Ireland bid? It was on TV earlier that it will be 35,000 after being redeveloped, but I thought the minimum capacity to be a venue was 50,000?
Post by: chrisw1 on April 13, 2023, 09:03:26 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on April 13, 2023, 09:10:14 AM
They don't have to have a NI one if they don't have a stadium to host it in. Surely this weakens the bid as a whole as it's clearly not big enough when there's probably a dozen alternatives elsewhere?
I'd guess that politically, a venue in NI is an absolute necessity if there is one in Dublin, however small it is.
Post by: Villa Lew on April 13, 2023, 09:15:34 AM
Post by: Risso on April 13, 2023, 09:19:56 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 13, 2023, 09:30:26 AM
30K for the Euros apparently.£?
Post by: algy on April 13, 2023, 09:52:22 AM
They don't have to have a NI one if they don't have a stadium to host it in. Surely this weakens the bid as a whole as it's clearly not big enough when there's probably a dozen alternatives elsewhere?I'd guess a key selling point for it might be that it'll mean there'll be a newly redeveloped stadium in NI that wouldn't happen without the Euros. So hosting benefits are spread in a sustainable way to 3 nations who realistically could never host the event (Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, Wales) and 1 which could do it at a pinch but it wouldn't be particularly sustainable (Scotland might just about be able to host it alone, though you'd end up doing some far less sensible redevelopments than Casement Park).
Post by: eamonn on April 13, 2023, 11:00:08 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 13, 2023, 11:09:41 AM
Post by: Des Little on April 13, 2023, 11:40:06 AM
The NI stadium will be about legacy of the tournament.
In other words, a St Andrews for the Norn Irish within a decade.
Post by: FatSam on April 13, 2023, 12:55:57 PM
Will Ireland qualify as co-hosts? It's the only feckin' way we will ;DI seem to remember hearing that as there are effectively five co-hosts they wouldn’t automatically qualify.
Post by: London Villan on April 13, 2023, 01:30:34 PM
Post by: Des Little on April 13, 2023, 01:45:15 PM
Post by: saunders_heroes on April 13, 2023, 01:46:32 PM
Be interesting to see guests from all across Europe standing in a mile long queue for the train at Aston.
No doubt there’ll be trains every 5 minutes during the Euros.
Post by: Smirker on April 13, 2023, 01:54:21 PM
Apart from of course Wembley, of the 10 venues Villa Park is the only other ground, which was also a venue for the 66 World Cup, the others were White City, Old Trafford, Hillsborough, Goodison Park, Roker Park and Ayresome Park.
The Cathedral of Football.
The Home of Club Football.
The Real Football Museum.
8)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 13, 2023, 01:57:04 PM
I wonder if the development will be based on the bid winning, which in turn will give the city access to money to upgrade Witton Station.
No, it won't be anything to do with that.
Post by: eamonn on April 13, 2023, 02:19:31 PM
Will Ireland qualify as co-hosts? It's the only feckin' way we will ;DI seem to remember hearing that as there are effectively five co-hosts they wouldn’t automatically qualify.
Say it ain't so, fat Sam.
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on April 13, 2023, 02:21:08 PM
No idea how they plan to choose the two.
Post by: AV82EC on April 13, 2023, 02:23:44 PM
Two out of the 5 host countries will qualify automatically.
No idea how they plan to choose the two.
The return of the Home Internationals with added RoI. Top 2 qualify, 1 in the play offs.
Post by: Dave P on April 13, 2023, 05:04:20 PM
Be interesting to see guests from all across Europe standing in a mile long queue for the train at Aston.
They'll be no queue straight after as they'll all be drinking Amstel out of a plastic beaker for £8 in Villa Live.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 13, 2023, 07:01:36 PM
Post by: LeeB on April 13, 2023, 07:32:45 PM
Have North Stand season ticket holders been given any notice of what will happen during the redevelopment?
No.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 13, 2023, 08:04:51 PM
Two out of the 5 host countries will qualify automatically.
No idea how they plan to choose the two.
The return of the Home Internationals with added RoI. Top 2 qualify, 1 in the play offs.
I was going to suggest England as automatic hosts and then the other 4 play for 2 spots but that seems fair enough.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 13, 2023, 08:18:37 PM
They don't have to have a NI one if they don't have a stadium to host it in. Surely this weakens the bid as a whole as it's clearly not big enough when there's probably a dozen alternatives elsewhere?
I'd guess that politically, a venue in NI is an absolute necessity if there is one in Dublin, however small it is.
Watching the NI News tonight there was a segment on the new Casement Park and the chat was that it could be built, with the help of the UK and Irish govts, as opposed to it will be. It also mentioned that Northern Ireland fans have released a statement saying they only want to host games if it's at a football stadium (i.e. not a GAA stadium like Casement Park). Then add in the current impasse at Stormont and its availability looks far from certain.
As I've mentioned before I have my doubts it will be ready in time, at which point they could possibly use Croke Park as an alternative venue. That's an extra 40-50k seats per game and from a political point of view they can say to NI that they were listed in the initial 10 stadia and had their chance to host.
Post by: eamonn on April 13, 2023, 09:02:35 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 13, 2023, 09:12:56 PM
Why don't they just bring Windsor Park up to scratch? Lower cost and risk.
Waste of time and money, won't be needed when there's a United Ireland team. ;)
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 13, 2023, 10:35:36 PM
Why don't they just bring Windsor Park up to scratch? Lower cost and risk.some how I can't see GAA sports being played there if they do improve it
Post by: tomd2103 on April 13, 2023, 10:41:42 PM
Why don't they just bring Windsor Park up to scratch? Lower cost and risk.Waste of time and money, won't be needed when there's a United Ireland team. ;)
Yep, couldn’t see many games being played in what would become like a war zone again.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 13, 2023, 10:41:53 PM
Post by: Villan For Life on April 13, 2023, 11:17:04 PM
I still think they will need to do something with Witton Lane to try and get up to Spec ,before a major tournament
Presumably the bid has been signed off on how the stadiums are projected to look like at the start of the tournament. At the moment there are no concrete plans to do anything on that side of the ground so come 2028 the Witton Lane will look pretty much like it does today.
Post by: tomd2103 on April 13, 2023, 11:59:42 PM
I still think they will need to do something with Witton Lane to try and get up to Spec ,before a major tournament
Presumably the bid has been signed off on how the stadiums are projected to look like at the start of the tournament. At the moment there are no concrete plans to do anything on that side of the ground so come 2028 the Witton Lane will look pretty much like it does today.
I know it’s been discussed many times before on here, but I’m not sure what they can do on Witton lane really given the proximity of the housing.
Post by: Villafirst on April 14, 2023, 07:26:42 AM
Post by: AV82EC on April 14, 2023, 08:38:57 AM
What about the here and now. I understand that the redevelopment of Witton Station is key to starting the building work on the new stand? I'm not sure if the funding is in place yet for the station work. A large portion of the money has to be provided by the Council for this work. Originally it was reported that work on the new stand was planned for Spring 2023, which I assume is the end of this season? I doubt if that's the case at the moment with the Station work needing planning permission and funding.
Is it the council or Mr Mayor who needs to be getting this sorted? or both?
Post by: olaftab on April 14, 2023, 12:04:18 PM
I would love that, being 1/10,000,000 Irish myself.Why don't they just bring Windsor Park up to scratch? Lower cost and risk.
Waste of time and money, won't be needed when there's a United Ireland team. ;)
Post by: London Villan on April 14, 2023, 01:28:42 PM
Post by: Des Little on April 14, 2023, 02:03:50 PM
Post by: Nev on April 14, 2023, 02:08:34 PM
They'll have to do something with the catering side of things in the Witton Lane - the concourse is like being on a submarine.
I've often wondered if they could somehow create space under the Holte or as part of the North Stand development (if the away fans move) where you gain access from the Witton Lane into a shared concourse? It would require a ticket check in and out but may alleviate some of the issues up there.
Post by: Des Little on April 14, 2023, 02:25:49 PM
Post by: London Villan on April 14, 2023, 02:44:27 PM
Post by: The Man With A Stick on April 14, 2023, 05:29:53 PM
They'll have to do something with the catering side of things in the Witton Lane - the concourse is like being on a submarine.
Haven't been in the Witton since the Trabzonspor game in '94 but it reminded me of a 1950s nuclear bunker (with similar toilet/catering facilities) at the time.
Post by: tomd2103 on April 16, 2023, 12:25:06 PM
Any truth in that?
Post by: Nii Lamptey on April 16, 2023, 12:31:32 PM
Post by: Duncan Shaw on April 18, 2023, 02:54:54 PM
Post by: darren woolley on April 18, 2023, 03:32:41 PM
What about the here and now. I understand that the redevelopment of Witton Station is key to starting the building work on the new stand? I'm not sure if the funding is in place yet for the station work. A large portion of the money has to be provided by the Council for this work. Originally it was reported that work on the new stand was planned for Spring 2023, which I assume is the end of this season? I doubt if that's the case at the moment with the Station work needing planning permission and funding.
I think your spot on I've heard this a few times.
Post by: London Villan on April 18, 2023, 03:38:24 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on April 19, 2023, 07:31:58 AM
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Post by: Towser on April 19, 2023, 08:21:00 AM
Just spoken to the ticket office and they have no clue about season ticket renewals or if fans are being moved at any point next season.I feel they are waiting to see if we qualify for Europe or not as there will be a few more guaranteed home games then and will they include them and put prices up or will they be opened up for a certain time for us to claim (and pay) for our own seats.
Post by: London Villan on April 19, 2023, 08:54:56 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 19, 2023, 09:21:35 AM
Right now it feels unlikely to me that the redev will start in the summer.
Post by: PeterWithe on April 19, 2023, 09:24:11 AM
Post by: Ger Regan on April 19, 2023, 09:29:37 AM
Post by: AV82EC on April 19, 2023, 10:31:00 AM
Has it even been out to tender yet? The added complication could be construction inflation, costs are very likely to have gone up significantly, even since the time of the planning application.
A very good point Ger. the organisation I work for has scaled back its number of projects in delivery by 20% due to construction inflation as the budget just can’t stretch. Not that that’s necessarily a problem for Naseef and Wes but certainly would be for TfWM and BCC.
Post by: FatSam on April 19, 2023, 10:34:42 AM
Has it even been out to tender yet? The added complication could be construction inflation, costs are very likely to have gone up significantly, even since the time of the planning application.Yes, construction inflation is a real issue at the moment. Contractors would have to factor in a significant amount of risk for price fluctuations over a two-year build. HS2 is perhaps the most extreme example, where I think the government are going to wait it out before resuming work when things have settled down. I know of many projects that have been value engineered and re-tendered a few months later, only to find that any savings have been blown out of the water by construction inflation. In the case of the Witton End, they probably have a couple of years buffer before the Euros, but would presumably miss out on 2 years of increased revenues in the meantime if they delayed.
Post by: Towser on April 19, 2023, 10:46:31 AM
Quote
Following our last meeting with the Club as part of the Fan Consultation Group (FCG), the Premier League has launched the Fan Engagement Standard. Ahead of any Government regulation, the Premier League is implementing these measures designed to reinforce its clubs’ commitment to ensuring longterm meaningful engagement with supporters.
We received notification earlier this week that the Aston Villa Fan Advisory Board (FAB) will meet for the first time this Thursday. The Trust tabled a number of agenda items at the last FCG meeting, including season ticket plans and the Holte End survey. The Club has confirmed that they will provide an update on these at the first FAB.
Further information about the Aston Villa Fan Advisory Board and Fan Engagement Standard.
If you have any questions or would like us to raise another matter with the Club please reach out.
Post by: London Villan on April 19, 2023, 11:54:13 AM
Are they playing chicken with BCC on the redevelopment? They can't possibly release ST information until they know if the North Stand will be available next season or not. I think they've said they won't start until they are sure the Witton Station works will go ahead so is it now just a waiting game for confirmation of council funding of that?
Right now it feels unlikely to me that the redev will start in the summer.
Always unlikely to start in the summer as we have Pink, Springsteen and KickStart all happening in June.
Post by: john e on April 19, 2023, 12:08:11 PM
Are they playing chicken with BCC on the redevelopment? They can't possibly release ST information until they know if the North Stand will be available next season or not. I think they've said they won't start until they are sure the Witton Station works will go ahead so is it now just a waiting game for confirmation of council funding of that?
Right now it feels unlikely to me that the redev will start in the summer.
Always unlikely to start in the summer as we have Pink, Springsteen and KickStart all happening in June.
Are they coming to pitch in and help out with the groundwork’s do you reckon
Post by: eamonn on April 19, 2023, 12:29:35 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on April 19, 2023, 01:38:11 PM
Are they playing chicken with BCC on the redevelopment? They can't possibly release ST information until they know if the North Stand will be available next season or not. I think they've said they won't start until they are sure the Witton Station works will go ahead so is it now just a waiting game for confirmation of council funding of that?
Right now it feels unlikely to me that the redev will start in the summer.
Always unlikely to start in the summer as we have Pink, Springsteen and KickStart all happening in June.
Wouldn't the stage be in front of the North Stand?
Post by: Hookeysmith on April 19, 2023, 01:42:30 PM
Are they playing chicken with BCC on the redevelopment? They can't possibly release ST information until they know if the North Stand will be available next season or not. I think they've said they won't start until they are sure the Witton Station works will go ahead so is it now just a waiting game for confirmation of council funding of that?
Right now it feels unlikely to me that the redev will start in the summer.
Always unlikely to start in the summer as we have Pink, Springsteen and KickStart all happening in June.
Wouldn't the stage be in front of the North Stand?
Yes it is planned to be on both concerts where as the motocross thing is the whole pitch area
Post by: DB on April 19, 2023, 02:17:14 PM
Are they playing chicken with BCC on the redevelopment? They can't possibly release ST information until they know if the North Stand will be available next season or not. I think they've said they won't start until they are sure the Witton Station works will go ahead so is it now just a waiting game for confirmation of council funding of that?
Right now it feels unlikely to me that the redev will start in the summer.
Always unlikely to start in the summer as we have Pink, Springsteen and KickStart all happening in June.
Liverpool are building a new stand while keeping the old one fully open, so I reckon a few concerts is doable while they work on the redevelopment.
Post by: Towser on April 20, 2023, 07:38:49 AM
Post by: rob_bridge on April 20, 2023, 08:31:55 AM
The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased online
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Congratulations on being the most boring, most predictable, most repetitive poster here.
Post by: amfy on April 20, 2023, 08:38:34 AM
The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased online
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Many season ticket holders can’t make all the midweek games. I am one of them. It doesn’t stop me having a season ticket though, and nor would it stop me wanting one if I was on the waiting list.
Post by: Axl Rose on April 20, 2023, 09:22:36 AM
The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased online
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Congratulations on being the most boring, most predictable, most repetitive poster here.
:D
I'm slightly disappointed in a weird kind of way. I thought I was.
Post by: paul_e on April 20, 2023, 09:51:52 AM
The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased online
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Many season ticket holders can’t make all the midweek games. I am one of them. It doesn’t stop me having a season ticket though, and nor would it stop me wanting one if I was on the waiting list.
and, as fred has been told many times, being on the waiting list for a season ticket doesn't mean you're automatically available or interested in buying tickets for a single match, the 2 things aren't the same at all.
Post by: Duncan Shaw on April 20, 2023, 09:57:18 AM
Especially a Tuesday night game that is being televised.The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased online
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Many season ticket holders can’t make all the midweek games. I am one of them. It doesn’t stop me having a season ticket though, and nor would it stop me wanting one if I was on the waiting list.
and, as fred has been told many times, being on the waiting list for a season ticket doesn't mean you're automatically available or interested in buying tickets for a single match, the 2 things aren't the same at all.
Post by: Pat Mustard on April 20, 2023, 10:17:33 AM
Post by: Mister E on April 20, 2023, 10:20:28 AM
Strangely, I didn't find anything to be critical of in Fred's post (even the snide " let's see..." theme was pretty mild by his standards).The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased onlineCongratulations on being the most boring, most predictable, most repetitive poster here.
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
Post by: Ads on April 20, 2023, 10:40:47 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 20, 2023, 10:58:52 AM
Strangely, I didn't find anything to be critical of in Fred's post (even the snide " let's see..." theme was pretty mild by his standards).The club have opened up the upper Doug Ellis stand (normal away blocks) and can be purchased onlineCongratulations on being the most boring, most predictable, most repetitive poster here.
Let's see if those sell out. Will be a good indication if those on waiting last are genuinely interested.
R1 has also been opened up to those over the age of 21
It's the endless repetition of the same flawed point.
There's nothing wrong in the way he expresses himself, it's the boring-as-fuck trollery of the actual point he's making, the senselessness of which has been explained to him 300 times to no avail.
Post by: Clampy on April 20, 2023, 10:59:53 AM
Post by: eamonn on April 20, 2023, 11:06:54 AM
Wilma is best ignored.
What about poor Dino? Oh-woah-oh-Deaannooo !
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on April 20, 2023, 11:15:46 AM
To be fair to Fred it's only because of his post that I was even aware that these had gone on sale. The club could probably do a bit more to publicise the availability of extra tickets, as a lot of people who might want to go may well think the game is sold out if they looked for tickets in the last week or two.
Yes, they don’t seem to be promoting these extra seats very widely and it seems very half hearted. If you go online to look for tickets, the upper Witton extra seats aren’t highlighted as available. It’s not clear at all.
Post by: Flin5tone on April 22, 2023, 11:11:48 AM
Not a good look after last season's increase
Post by: Stu on April 22, 2023, 12:36:41 PM
If the reasoning is that it’s more in line with clubs such as Chelsea/Spurs/Arsenal etc then can someone point out to the club that Birmingham is significantly poorer than London and the south east? Paying London prices on Birmingham wages?
Post by: Stu on April 22, 2023, 12:38:08 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 22, 2023, 12:41:43 PM
Also North Stand ticket prices have been released, so I wonder what’s happening with the development, to bring it back on topic.
Nothing until summer 2024. Prices in the upper have gone up to bring it in line with the Holte.
Post by: LeeB on April 22, 2023, 12:50:01 PM
Also North Stand ticket prices have been released, so I wonder what’s happening with the development, to bring it back on topic.
Nothing until summer 2024. Prices in the upper have gone up to bring it in line with the Holte.
The last 5 rows of the North (where I sit) were cheaper before this season, so with the further rise it's going to be almost double what we were paying last season.
Post by: amfy on April 22, 2023, 12:55:18 PM
Also North Stand ticket prices have been released, so I wonder what’s happening with the development, to bring it back on topic.
Nothing until summer 2024. Prices in the upper have gone up to bring it in line with the Holte.
The last 5 rows of the North (where I sit) were cheaper before this season, so with the further rise it's going to be almost double what we were paying last season.
It feels like mine has doubled in a couple of seasons after being about the same price for over 10 years! I started at just under £300 I think, and it hung around just over £300, rising slowly through the £300s….Then bam! £600! It isn’t quite like this in reality, but it feels like this.
Nonetheless, I’m hanging on to the fact that they didn’t seem to go up for ages and maybe it’s levelling up time.
Post by: frank black on April 22, 2023, 01:40:15 PM
Post by: luke95 on April 22, 2023, 01:53:31 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on April 22, 2023, 01:57:18 PM
Post by: frank black on April 22, 2023, 02:02:39 PM
Maybe the people sat up there should have kept quiet about how good the view is.
Legroom is blooming awful up there though. The redevelopment will sort this I expect
Post by: amfy on April 22, 2023, 02:09:39 PM
I don’t even know if I have managed to put this in a way that makes sense, and I’m not offering any opinion on whether this is a good or bad thing, just business.
Post by: danno on April 22, 2023, 02:12:41 PM
Post by: Border villan on April 22, 2023, 02:28:55 PM
Post by: frank black on April 22, 2023, 02:39:51 PM
Where are these details available. As a season ticket holder I have had no notification about next season.
I found it here, there’s no detail just the headline news
https://www.myoldmansaid.com/season-ticket-increases-holte-end-development-fan-advisory-board-news/
Post by: spangley1812 on April 22, 2023, 02:41:06 PM
Where are these details available. As a season ticket holder I have had no notification about next season.
These details have not been released by the club so you have not missed anything
Post by: eamonn on April 22, 2023, 03:04:44 PM
Post by: charleeco7 on April 22, 2023, 03:14:06 PM
Post by: LeeB on April 22, 2023, 05:16:26 PM
If I remember correctly Upper North was one of the lowest increases last year.
My ticket up there went from £300ish to £500, lads that he'd been sat with us moved downstairs
Post by: Paul.S on April 22, 2023, 05:41:28 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 22, 2023, 05:51:19 PM
Post by: OCD on April 22, 2023, 06:02:30 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 22, 2023, 06:07:43 PM
My lad convinced us to move across the Holte to behind the goal, obviously had to pay more,he said I pay for your dad, guess what I payed for my own and still waiting for a hundred pounds off him, must have mug written on my headIf I remember correctly Upper North was one of the lowest increases last year.
My ticket up there went from £300ish to £500, lads that he'd been sat with us moved downstairs
Post by: Paul.S on April 22, 2023, 06:12:06 PM
"Especially during this current financial climate" is easily defended by the club - they'll just say that they have electricity/utilities to pay for too and aren't immune to 10% inflation.
That is true and I get that but it’s still an above inflation rise which I get as well if we want to compete in this money driven game of ours. That’s not a criticism of our owners who’ve been great but at the game as a whole.
Post by: adrenachrome on April 22, 2023, 06:50:46 PM
My lad convinced us to move across the Holte to behind the goal, obviously had to pay more,he said I pay for your dad, guess what I payed for my own and still waiting for a hundred pounds off him, must have mug written on my headIf I remember correctly Upper North was one of the lowest increases last year.
My ticket up there went from £300ish to £500, lads that he'd been sat with us moved downstairs
Same thing happened to me a good few years ago.
I bought a mug with "My Head" printed on it, but it went over his head.
Post by: luke95 on April 22, 2023, 07:47:38 PM
I'm sure they re structured the pricing for this season which increased mine in the Upper North from about £470/80 - about £540/50, making it one of the lower increases at the time.If I remember correctly Upper North was one of the lowest increases last year.
My ticket up there went from £300ish to £500, lads that he'd been sat with us moved downstairs
Post by: charleeco7 on April 22, 2023, 08:49:17 PM
Post by: Risso on April 22, 2023, 08:55:06 PM
Post by: adrenachrome on April 22, 2023, 08:56:47 PM
A price rise AND no inclusive cup games.
Top fleecing, on the face of it.
Post by: TonyD on April 22, 2023, 10:30:15 PM
Not right. When most of the club’s revenue is not from the gate.A price rise AND no inclusive cup games.
Top fleecing, on the face of it.
Post by: Flin5tone on April 23, 2023, 01:17:47 AM
Stick your waiting list where the sun don't shine. It's being used to fleece loyal supporters
Post by: Rory on April 23, 2023, 04:24:28 AM
"Especially during this current financial climate" is easily defended by the club - they'll just say that they have electricity/utilities to pay for too and aren't immune to 10% inflation.
That is true and I get that but it’s still an above inflation rise which I get as well if we want to compete in this money driven game of ours. That’s not a criticism of our owners who’ve been great but at the game as a whole.
We're a business. We are entitled to cover these things. We're not greedy militant bastards like train drivers, nurses or teachers, who for some reason expect to make a living wage.
In 18 months, once I've paid off my debt, I'll be able to afford a season ticket for myself. I don't know how people afford season tickets for them and their kids, particularly considering I know many of you folks have a 100+ mile round trip to make games.
Credit to you all for your support, everybody with a season ticket is a hero, but I don't know how you manage it.
Post by: Border villan on April 23, 2023, 07:50:18 AM
Purslow does not care about struggling supporters or if it will drive the working class away. They don't need us (for now) let's bloody well hope for the club's sake that we don't go down again when the newbies don't fancy it!!!
Stick your waiting list where the sun don't shine. It's being used to fleece loyal supporters
How can the waiting list be used to “fleece loyal supporters” when according to you it is virtually non existent.
Post by: Flin5tone on April 23, 2023, 08:22:23 AM
If you had a flight going to a destination and 27,000 people would like to be on board that flight or have some interest in it and seats came up for the going rate. It would be sell in seconds?
27,000 have the opportunity to see their team ? Where are they?
It's happened a few times on evening kick offs. My point is if we have a 52k stadium (and tickets are leas hard to come by) we may well have 10,000 empty for evening games
Post by: Ads on April 23, 2023, 09:00:38 AM
Post by: LeeB on April 23, 2023, 09:20:02 AM
You're discovering how supply and demand works. We sell out because the elasticity for demand has increased at a time when supply, for the first time in any of our Villa supporting lives, has decreased. The price rises are high, I don't like it, but I will pay it, as will the majority as they're not so high as to impact that elasticity. The club will point to the prices normalising amongst the milieu of our peers and inflation, if they try and justify it at all. Ticket prices next year for just me will probably tip £1300 if you include aways. Fortunately European tickets from recollection were always cheap, travel, less so.
Without dragging the debate off topic or besmirching the intelligence of either of you, if people in general had a basic grasp of the concept Brexit would never have happened.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 23, 2023, 09:27:23 AM
By creating a sense of if you don't renew that's you finished. 27k on waiting list puts the prices up but it does not make sense.....
If you had a flight going to a destination and 27,000 people would like to be on board that flight or have some interest in it and seats came up for the going rate. It would be sell in seconds?
27,000 have the opportunity to see their team ? Where are they?
It's happened a few times on evening kick offs. My point is if we have a 52k stadium (and tickets are leas hard to come by) we may well have 10,000 empty for evening games
In one gasp you decry them as money grabbing yet in the next you’re accusing them of lying to create an excuse to waste tens of millions of pounds.
Post by: DB on April 23, 2023, 11:02:33 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 23, 2023, 11:11:22 AM
So the North stand redevelopment not starting this summer? Is Due to the infrastructure assurances? Sorry if already posted...
It's unlikely that it will start this summer. 2024 is the probable start date and word on the transport issues is encouraging.
Post by: Flin5tone on April 23, 2023, 11:16:46 AM
Post by: Monty on April 23, 2023, 11:20:24 AM
Post by: Border villan on April 23, 2023, 11:24:43 AM
Not one ticket has sold since late yesterday evening
You are correct. Earlier there were 9 available in A8 now there are 7 so yes, not one but two have been sold.
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 23, 2023, 12:14:35 PM
Post by: WassallVillain on April 23, 2023, 12:45:25 PM
By creating a sense of if you don't renew that's you finished. 27k on waiting list puts the prices up but it does not make sense.....
If you had a flight going to a destination and 27,000 people would like to be on board that flight or have some interest in it and seats came up for the going rate. It would be sell in seconds?
27,000 have the opportunity to see their team ? Where are they?
It's happened a few times on evening kick offs. My point is if we have a 52k stadium (and tickets are leas hard to come by) we may well have 10,000 empty for evening games
Some skewed logic there Fred. 27k for 300 seats on plane or 27k for c10k stadium seats will affect the speed at which they sell.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on April 23, 2023, 01:05:47 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 23, 2023, 01:17:31 PM
I was emailed last summer to advise where I was on the list, which was about 12000. They don't change until they know whether people are renewing or not. Once they know that, they will email everyone again.
Post by: eamonn on April 23, 2023, 02:31:05 PM
I've got two people in my house on the waiting list, but neither of them are of an inclination to be sat nowhere near me. In somewhat of a contrast to our homelife.
You're not the Holte End Phantom Farter that Chris Harte on here used to get very upset about, circa 2004, are you?
Post by: Chris Harte on April 23, 2023, 03:12:13 PM
They're leaving it late this year. Perhaps they want to see if we qualify for Europe before releasing info.
Post by: Rory on April 23, 2023, 03:15:56 PM
I've got two people in my house on the waiting list, but neither of them are of an inclination to be sat nowhere near me. In somewhat of a contrast to our homelife.
You're not the Holte End Phantom Farter that Chris Harte on here used to get very upset about, circa 2004, are you?
I remember some of those. A lingering miasma of unholy filth. Dreadful.
Post by: eamonn on April 23, 2023, 10:41:08 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on April 23, 2023, 10:54:43 PM
Interesting that Chris chooses not to comment on it even all these years later.It was 2005, which is as close to today as 2005 is to 1987 (and we all know what horrible thing happened back then).
As for the mystery gut-spiller in the Lower Holte, that person has long since gone away, or changed their diet. Who knows?
Post by: Rory on April 23, 2023, 11:09:57 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2023, 12:30:34 AM
Interesting that Chris chooses not to comment on it even all these years later.It was 2005, which is as close to today as 2005 is to 1987 (and we all know what horrible thing happened back then).
As for the mystery gut-spiller in the Lower Holte, that person has long since gone away, or changed their diet. Who knows?
;D ;D I wasn't being entirely serious but I appreciate the response.
Post by: Rory on April 24, 2023, 01:55:50 AM
Interesting that Chris chooses not to comment on it even all these years later.It was 2005, which is as close to today as 2005 is to 1987 (and we all know what horrible thing happened back then).
As for the mystery gut-spiller in the Lower Holte, that person has long since gone away, or changed their diet. Who knows?
;D ;D I wasn't being entirely serious but I appreciate the response.
These can be painful memories, Eamonn.
I once went into the SHA shop on Dale End as a decoy while my mate set off 18 stink bombs in there. He ran out and I spent a good 20 seconds trying to act normally while breathing that air.
That stench, potent as it was, did not compete with some of the things wafting around the Holte back then.
My friend at the time had a season ticket towards the right of the Upper Holte, next to his brother, who wasn't that interested, so I'd slip him a fiver and use his brother's ticket most home games.
When going with my dad/brother, I usually sat on the left of the Lower Holte, or the Upper Trinity, and I had never sniffed anything like it at VP, and haven't since, so I assumed it was an issue local to the Upper Holte.
If Chris and I are thinking of the same culprit, and he was indeed responsible for poisoning the air of both the Upper & Lower Holte, his guts could've been fucking weaponised.
Post by: sid1964 on April 24, 2023, 07:26:35 AM
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
Post by: VinnieChase84 on April 24, 2023, 08:44:46 AM
Seen a lot of Prem clubs have done a modest 5% increase
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 24, 2023, 08:56:50 AM
Read elsewhere a 15% increase on season ticketsDoes she work-in the ticket office?
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 24, 2023, 09:06:21 AM
As Ads pointed out, demand for things like season tickets is price inelastic anyway so although there will be some drop off they’ll still shift them all.
And even then there’s the 30k strong Official Wilma Flin5tone Season Ticket Waiting List.
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2023, 09:14:54 AM
Read elsewhere a 15% increase on season ticketsDoes she work-in the ticket office?
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
Yes, I thought we had reached equality now where husbands aren't beholden to the household finances being governed by the tyrannical wife.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 24, 2023, 09:39:49 AM
Read elsewhere a 15% increase on season tickets
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
Surely one's enough.
Post by: LeeB on April 24, 2023, 09:42:57 AM
Read elsewhere a 15% increase on season ticketsDoes she work-in the ticket office?
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
Yes, I thought we had reached equality now where husbands aren't beholden to the household finances being governed by the tyrannical wife.
Have we? Nobody told my missus
Post by: Flamingo Lane on April 24, 2023, 09:48:30 AM
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2023, 10:10:35 AM
Post by: Stu on April 24, 2023, 10:11:13 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 24, 2023, 10:14:48 AM
Apparently I’m in position 26360 on the ST waiting list.
LIAR
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 24, 2023, 10:19:15 AM
Apparently I’m in position 26360 on the ST waiting list.
Hope you are not holding on the phone
Post by: Risso on April 24, 2023, 10:20:39 AM
Got an email from the club this morning with my season-ticket waiting list position update. 27,825!
But are you going on Tuesday, that's the important thing.
Post by: ChicagoLion on April 24, 2023, 10:39:44 AM
That’s what happens when you lock them up in a caravan.Read elsewhere a 15% increase on season ticketsDoes she work-in the ticket office?
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
Yes, I thought we had reached equality now where husbands aren't beholden to the household finances being governed by the tyrannical wife.
Have we? Nobody told my missus
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 24, 2023, 11:12:30 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on April 24, 2023, 11:14:25 AM
Apparently I’m in position 26360 on the ST waiting list.
LIAR
I’m so low on the list they haven’t bothered with me.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 24, 2023, 11:14:48 AM
There is no way I am going on a waiting list
What is the alternative other than not go?
Post by: DB on April 24, 2023, 11:25:15 AM
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2023, 11:43:45 AM
There is no way I am going on a waiting list
Who do you think you are, Willy Windsor?
Post by: Brend'Watkins on April 24, 2023, 11:48:02 AM
Read elsewhere a 15% increase on season tickets
I will need to ask the Wife if I can have another season ticket.
And that Ladies and Gentlemen is the very reason why you should never have a joint bank account.
Post by: simon ward 50 on April 24, 2023, 12:05:54 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on April 24, 2023, 12:13:35 PM
Apparently I’m in position 26360 on the ST waiting list.
It's a disgrace!
Post by: frank black on April 24, 2023, 12:15:37 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 24, 2023, 12:16:25 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 24, 2023, 12:23:17 PM
I've moved up 18 places since September. Which can only mean some people have removed their names from the list because the renewal dates haven't passed yet.They had my lad on the waiting list for two seasons running when he actually already purchased one
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 24, 2023, 12:41:01 PM
I've moved up 18 places since September. Which can only mean some people have removed their names from the list because the renewal dates haven't passed yet.They had my lad on the waiting list for two seasons running when he actually already purchased one
So do we think it isn’t updated enough ?
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 24, 2023, 01:02:11 PM
just looked at the emails and he still on the listI've moved up 18 places since September. Which can only mean some people have removed their names from the list because the renewal dates haven't passed yet.They had my lad on the waiting list for two seasons running when he actually already purchased one
Post by: DB on April 24, 2023, 01:14:07 PM
Post by: Nii Lamptey on April 24, 2023, 01:32:26 PM
This is why they'll push the prices up... There will be more than enough fans willing to pay for a season ticket for those that are priced out. It's not nice, but that's business I guess. :(
Post by: The Man With A Stick on April 24, 2023, 03:15:04 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 24, 2023, 03:18:37 PM
Post by: Fasth56 on April 24, 2023, 04:12:30 PM
I currently think that the safe standing 3,500 will be everything above where the stairs come out on the terrace about row 11, add a couple of thousand at the front of upper Holte and that would mean the lower Holte holds about 8,000, is that about right?
Post by: chrisw1 on April 24, 2023, 05:26:03 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 24, 2023, 05:29:24 PM
Post by: exigo on April 24, 2023, 05:33:03 PM
L3 is now £779.00, which is 15% up.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 24, 2023, 05:34:40 PM
It's a bit shit that the safe standing won't increase capacity, so it just a matter of replacing the seats on a 1:1 basis. Hardly seems worth it as everyone at the back stands already. But I think they have to do it because the 'persistent standing' puts us at risk of a sanction.
They were looking at serious cuts in capacity.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 24, 2023, 05:39:02 PM
21/22 - £615
22/23 - £677 (10%)
23/24 - £779 (15%)
26.7% over 2 years. Fucking hell.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 24, 2023, 05:42:23 PM
It's odd that doing a few in the upper Holte and a few in the upper witton away section changes anything when the whole of the lower Holte and the whole of the away end stand for the entire game.It's a bit shit that the safe standing won't increase capacity, so it just a matter of replacing the seats on a 1:1 basis. Hardly seems worth it as everyone at the back stands already. But I think they have to do it because the 'persistent standing' puts us at risk of a sanction.
They were looking at serious cuts in capacity.
Do you know where the rails seats will be in the upper Holte? eg will it be the entire back few rows or a few whole blocks?
Post by: luke95 on April 24, 2023, 05:45:33 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on April 24, 2023, 05:49:48 PM
If you're a season ticket holder, you can now see your renewal price. Go into your season ticket section in your account, and it'll give you a renewal button.
L3 is now £779.00, which is 15% up.
Aye, quite a hike, also my kid now moves from u14 - u18 so thats another near £200 rise on top. Not particularly welcome news.
Post by: Fasth56 on April 24, 2023, 06:00:10 PM
It's a bit shit that the safe standing won't increase capacity, so it just a matter of replacing the seats on a 1:1 basis. Hardly seems worth it as everyone at the back stands already. But I think they have to do it because the 'persistent standing' puts us at risk of a sanction.
I wish they'd sanction the bloke in row 20, 15 rows from the back
Post by: maidstonevillain on April 24, 2023, 06:11:26 PM
£728 now for Upper North ... That's quite a hike in price the last 2 years.
The best view in the ground was always under-priced. Providing you are under 1.7m, and don't want a drink, food, or pi** at half-time.
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 24, 2023, 06:12:53 PM
It's odd that doing a few in the upper Holte and a few in the upper witton away section changes anything when the whole of the lower Holte and the whole of the away end stand for the entire game.It's a bit shit that the safe standing won't increase capacity, so it just a matter of replacing the seats on a 1:1 basis. Hardly seems worth it as everyone at the back stands already. But I think they have to do it because the 'persistent standing' puts us at risk of a sanction.
They were looking at serious cuts in capacity.
Do you know where the rails seats will be in the upper Holte? eg will it be the entire back few rows or a few whole blocks?
I think it's the back rows.
Post by: LeeB on April 24, 2023, 06:23:34 PM
Post by: Fasth56 on April 24, 2023, 06:30:13 PM
It's odd that doing a few in the upper Holte and a few in the upper witton away section changes anything when the whole of the lower Holte and the whole of the away end stand for the entire game.It's a bit shit that the safe standing won't increase capacity, so it just a matter of replacing the seats on a 1:1 basis. Hardly seems worth it as everyone at the back stands already. But I think they have to do it because the 'persistent standing' puts us at risk of a sanction.
They were looking at serious cuts in capacity.
Do you know where the rails seats will be in the upper Holte? eg will it be the entire back few rows or a few whole blocks?
I think it's the back rows.
3500 I thought
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 24, 2023, 06:48:56 PM
Post by: Fasth56 on April 24, 2023, 07:10:31 PM
2,500 plus 350 away.
Thanks
Post by: Bad English on April 24, 2023, 08:10:33 PM
I've moved up 18 places since September.Does this qualify you for Conference or Europa?
Post by: Des Little on April 24, 2023, 11:04:41 PM
I've moved up 18 places since September.Does this qualify you for Conference or Europa?
Or Eurovision?
Post by: Drummond on April 25, 2023, 01:20:35 AM
I've moved up 18 places since September.Does this qualify you for Conference or Europa?
No but if I don't swear tomorrow night I might get a place via the Fair Play rules.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 25, 2023, 09:31:07 AM
I've moved up 18 places since September.
Does this qualify you for Conference or Europa?
No but if I don't swear tomorrow night I might get a place via the Fair Play rules.
Seems unlikely if Olsen is in goal.
Post by: Fasth56 on April 25, 2023, 10:57:38 PM
It's odd that doing a few in the upper Holte and a few in the upper witton away section changes anything when the whole of the lower Holte and the whole of the away end stand for the entire game.It's a bit shit that the safe standing won't increase capacity, so it just a matter of replacing the seats on a 1:1 basis. Hardly seems worth it as everyone at the back stands already. But I think they have to do it because the 'persistent standing' puts us at risk of a sanction.
They were looking at serious cuts in capacity.
Do you know where the rails seats will be in the upper Holte? eg will it be the entire back few rows or a few whole blocks?
Row 21 - 35 will be the safe standing
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 25, 2023, 11:55:42 PM
Post by: DB on April 26, 2023, 12:04:46 AM
Painfully slow and disorganised in the upper Trinity tonight . Went down with 15 minutes to go first half . with 4 people in front of me and it took me up to halftime to get served . There is no set process on serving, everyone seem to be doing everything .o and got a beer straight away at the fast service thing down the end. But half time there was a huge queue.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2023, 12:34:25 PM
Painfully slow and disorganised in the upper Trinity tonight . Went down with 15 minutes to go first half . with 4 people in front of me and it took me up to halftime to get served . There is no set process on serving, everyone seem to be doing everything .Same in the Witton upper. Absolutely pathetic. I had to wait 20 minutes for a refund for a Nacho dog they had sold me but didn't have in stock (for my daughter - I ain't eating that stuff). The pie was decent though, which makes a nice change from the Holte upper.
Post by: Pete3206 on April 26, 2023, 12:59:12 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 26, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
They really need to get the basic stuff right first
Post by: PeterWithe on April 26, 2023, 02:07:31 PM
I feel for the staff as some look like they have been thrown in about 5 minutes before .
They really need to get the basic stuff right first
I think thats it, the fella doing the security checks with that wand thing seemed to have very little idea of how and if it worked. What is it with the security checks recently? They seem to have been upped quite a bit in the last few home games.
Post by: Fasth56 on April 26, 2023, 03:08:42 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2023, 03:19:23 PM
Whilst on the phone yesterday complaining about the safe standing and being ousted from my seat of 24 years, I asked who I could email to put my point across she gave me this; fancomplaints@avfc.co.uk. Not sure if you guys knew about this contact, but its worth a shotDoesn't everyone already stand in those seats towards the rear anyway?
Post by: rjp on April 26, 2023, 03:24:10 PM
Whilst on the phone yesterday complaining about the safe standing and being ousted from my seat of 24 years, I asked who I could email to put my point across she gave me this; fancomplaints@avfc.co.uk. Not sure if you guys knew about this contact, but its worth a shotDoesn't everyone already stand in those seats towards the rear anyway?
Only in the middle. I am towards the rear in K7 and everybody sits unless something interesting happens. It wouldn't bother me too much but the person I sit with has dodgy knees so I guess we'll need to move.
Post by: chrisw1 on April 26, 2023, 03:30:00 PM
Yes same really, I sit closer to the front but I suspect the safe standing will be phased in over most of the upper tier over the next few years. I imagine we'll all move sooner or later and just hope we can find decent seats elsewhere. I doubt that there are many pairs of seats together available in the Holte, but maybe some won't renew and you'll get lucky?Whilst on the phone yesterday complaining about the safe standing and being ousted from my seat of 24 years, I asked who I could email to put my point across she gave me this; fancomplaints@avfc.co.uk. Not sure if you guys knew about this contact, but its worth a shotDoesn't everyone already stand in those seats towards the rear anyway?
Only in the middle. I am towards the rear in K7 and everybody sits unless something interesting happens. It wouldn't bother me too much but the person I sit with has dodgy knees so I guess we'll need to move.
Post by: Flin5tone on April 26, 2023, 04:35:03 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 26, 2023, 04:36:56 PM
We'll all be priced out sooner or later anyway if you're an ordinary working class fan there's no future for you at the football club
Yep, there will just be a group of robots sitting there, dressed in dickie bows and dinner suits.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 26, 2023, 05:34:56 PM
We'll all be priced out sooner or later anyway if you're an ordinary working class fan there's no future for you at the football club
Yep, there will just be a group of robots sitting there, dressed in dickie bows and dinner suits.
And it's AI Aston Villa and away you go....now Kryten.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on April 26, 2023, 05:50:38 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 26, 2023, 07:13:34 PM
Surely yippee AI?
Even having only the last residue of a Brummie accent, I find that very very hard to say properly.
Post by: Bad English on April 26, 2023, 07:17:12 PM
Whilst on the phone yesterday complaining...I asked who I could email to put my point across she gave me this; fancomplaints@avfc.co.uk. Not sure if you guys knew about thisWho can I email to complain about this? ;-)
Post by: algy on April 27, 2023, 05:59:58 AM
postercomplaints@heroesandvillains.infoWhilst on the phone yesterday complaining...I asked who I could email to put my point across she gave me this; fancomplaints@avfc.co.uk. Not sure if you guys knew about thisWho can I email to complain about this? ;-)
Post by: Border villan on April 27, 2023, 09:05:45 AM
We'll all be priced out sooner or later anyway if you're an ordinary working class fan there's no future for you at the football club
Can someone define this semi-mythical last living working class fan as opposed to the glory hunting opportunists who are taking over the stands at Villa Park.
Allez, allez, allez.
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 27, 2023, 02:35:05 PM
we don't have working class supporters according to the Pesky Blinders mobWe'll all be priced out sooner or later anyway if you're an ordinary working class fan there's no future for you at the football club
Can someone define this semi-mythical last living working class fan as opposed to the glory hunting opportunists who are taking over the stands at Villa Park.
Allez, allez, allez.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 28, 2023, 10:11:49 AM
We'll all be priced out sooner or later anyway if you're an ordinary working class fan there's no future for you at the football club
Can someone define this semi-mythical last living working class fan as opposed to the glory hunting opportunists who are taking over the stands at Villa Park.
Allez, allez, allez.
This is probably the most pedantic post anyone has made in a while, but I can't let it go (not having a go at you, BV, it's something I've seen a lot).
It isn't actually "allez" (which is French), it is "ale" (pronunciation effectively the same, meaning largely the same, different spelling when written though).
"Ale" is Neapolitan dialect for "let's go / come on", that sort of exhortation, and the song in question originated from Napoli fans, "Un Giorno All'Improvviso", with the words "ale, ale, ale".
When the club gave those flags out for Wembley with "Allez" printed on them, I almost emailed them to point this out*
* I didn't really, but it irked me.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 28, 2023, 10:13:24 AM
Post by: LeeB on April 28, 2023, 10:30:01 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
It's mad, and forgive me for sounding a bit Flin5toney but I can't help thinking there's a marketing 'sleight of hand' going on here. If 33,000 season tickets became available tomorrow I wonder how many people on that list would be in a position to buy one or still interested.
It's certainly being used as a tool to justify big price increases.
Post by: Risso on April 28, 2023, 10:31:49 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
It's mad, and forgive me for sounding a bit Flin5toney but I can't help thinking there's a marketing 'sleight of hand' going on here. If 33,000 season tickets became available tomorrow I wonder how many people on that list would be in a position to buy one or still interested.
It's certainly being used as a tool to justify big price increases.
Even if only a third of those would actually take a ticket if offered one, it's still a huge number and guarantees sell out crowds.
Post by: Drummond on April 28, 2023, 10:34:50 AM
Post by: LeeB on April 28, 2023, 10:41:11 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
It's mad, and forgive me for sounding a bit Flin5toney but I can't help thinking there's a marketing 'sleight of hand' going on here. If 33,000 season tickets became available tomorrow I wonder how many people on that list would be in a position to buy one or still interested.
It's certainly being used as a tool to justify big price increases.
Even if only a third of those would actually take a ticket if offered one, it's still a huge number and guarantees sell out crowds.
I know, I get that, but I still think they're overinflating the demand to scare people into holding onto to what they have at (literally) all costs
Post by: placeforparks on April 28, 2023, 10:43:28 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
It's mad, and forgive me for sounding a bit Flin5toney but I can't help thinking there's a marketing 'sleight of hand' going on here. If 33,000 season tickets became available tomorrow I wonder how many people on that list would be in a position to buy one or still interested.
It's certainly being used as a tool to justify big price increases.
at the moment, that 33k is basically made up of people who have added their email address to a list. it's a glorified mailing list.
if the club asked for a deposit which was then credited against your first season ticket, i'm sure it would be far less, and it would be a truer reflection of the demand.
Post by: rob_bridge on April 28, 2023, 10:51:36 AM
E.g we have 29k season ticket holders and 85% renew?
Think renewing is more attractive nowadays and can sell ticket for games you can't attend
Post by: AV82EC on April 28, 2023, 10:53:34 AM
Post by: Drummond on April 28, 2023, 11:00:11 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
It's mad, and forgive me for sounding a bit Flin5toney but I can't help thinking there's a marketing 'sleight of hand' going on here. If 33,000 season tickets became available tomorrow I wonder how many people on that list would be in a position to buy one or still interested.
It's certainly being used as a tool to justify big price increases.
at the moment, that 33k is basically made up of people who have added their email address to a list. it's a glorified mailing list.
if the club asked for a deposit which was then credited against your first season ticket, i'm sure it would be far less, and it would be a truer reflection of the demand.
I don't think it would be a true reflection, because who'd pay a deposit for something that may not come along for 5-10 years?
Post by: darren woolley on April 28, 2023, 11:10:18 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
I didn't think it was that many that will go up in the future if we carry on the way we are performing.
Post by: paul_e on April 28, 2023, 11:11:15 AM
In Purslow's interview on Sky News last night, he said we now have 33,000 people on the season ticket waiting list.
It's mad, and forgive me for sounding a bit Flin5toney but I can't help thinking there's a marketing 'sleight of hand' going on here. If 33,000 season tickets became available tomorrow I wonder how many people on that list would be in a position to buy one or still interested.
It's certainly being used as a tool to justify big price increases.
at the moment, that 33k is basically made up of people who have added their email address to a list. it's a glorified mailing list.
if the club asked for a deposit which was then credited against your first season ticket, i'm sure it would be far less, and it would be a truer reflection of the demand.
I don't think it would be a true reflection, because who'd pay a deposit for something that may not come along for 5-10 years?
I'm also not sure that would be legal.
Based on this - https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/guidance/improper-use-client-account-banking-facility/ (https://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/guidance/improper-use-client-account-banking-facility/) - I'm pretty sure they can't ask for a deposit until they actually have a seat to offer.
Aside from that 33k on the list doesn't mean we could sell 33k extra this summer if we magic'd up a 90k stadium but it means there are 33k people who are interested enough to want to have the option when it becomes available. I don't think the club have sold it as anything else and I don't think they're doing it for any underhand reasons.
The price increases aren't great but the average increase isn't massively out of line with inflation, I'm sure the costs to the club of hosting matches will have increased significantly in the last year so I'm not sure they're being greedy or trying to squeeze as much as possible from the fans.
Post by: Chris Smith on April 28, 2023, 11:25:32 AM
I knew I wasn't ready for a season ticket in 2021 when I went on the list with my lad, but figured it would take a while to get there. Which it has. We'd be ready now but will probably have to wait at least 2 years still. I can't be alone in that.
I know a couple of people in exactly the same position. They’re on the list but with an expectation that it will probably be a couple of years before they are eligible.
Obviously there will be some people who, when their turn comes, might not be in a position to buy one but if you think that at some point in the future you might want one then you need to be on the list.
Post by: IFWaters on April 28, 2023, 01:35:09 PM
Does anyone know the churn
E.g we have 29k season ticket holders and 85% renew?
Think renewing is more attractive nowadays and can sell ticket for games you can't attend
In a flashback to General Krulak who was the poor woman in the office he always passed on every query to?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 28, 2023, 01:37:00 PM
In a flashback to General Krulak who was the poor woman in the office he always passed on every query to?
Nicola Keye?
Post by: Drummond on April 28, 2023, 01:37:11 PM
Post by: Drummond on April 28, 2023, 01:38:14 PM
I knew I wasn't ready for a season ticket in 2021 when I went on the list with my lad, but figured it would take a while to get there. Which it has. We'd be ready now but will probably have to wait at least 2 years still. I can't be alone in that.
I know a couple of people in exactly the same position. They’re on the list but with an expectation that it will probably be a couple of years before they are eligible.
Obviously there will be some people who, when their turn comes, might not be in a position to buy one but if you think that at some point in the future you might want one then you need to be on the list.
Exactly right. And we're going places, which is why that waiting list will get longer.
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 28, 2023, 05:14:24 PM
Post by: eamonn on April 28, 2023, 06:06:44 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 28, 2023, 07:12:26 PM
What we need is bigger sponsorship deals and if are on this path to greater recognition with Emery I can't see it being a problem
I agree.
Which is what makes the BK8 deal so anomalous. Not because it's a gambling company, so much as because it's not exactly a big company of the types who sponsor some of our peers.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on April 28, 2023, 08:41:37 PM
What we need is bigger sponsorship deals and if are on this path to greater recognition with Emery I can't see it being a problem
I agree.
Which is what makes the BK8 deal so anomalous. Not because it's a gambling company, so much as because it's not exactly a big company of the types who sponsor some of our peers.
Apparently, gambling companies pay double what non-gambling companies pay to sponsor clubs outside the big 6*
*vom.
Post by: Ger Regan on April 28, 2023, 11:41:15 PM
Post by: FatSam on April 28, 2023, 11:50:04 PM
Nicky Keye. The only person in the world that Chris Jameson had a good word for.She is at West Ham now.
Post by: eamonn on April 29, 2023, 04:19:00 AM
Post by: Meanwood Villa on April 29, 2023, 07:10:30 AM
Nicky Keye. The only person in the world that Chris Jameson had a good word for.She is at West Ham now.
The Danny Ings of the ticketing world
Post by: Meanwood Villa on April 29, 2023, 07:16:39 AM
Post by: Goldenballs on April 29, 2023, 07:53:51 AM
Post by: Ads on April 29, 2023, 07:56:43 AM
Post by: FrankyH on April 29, 2023, 09:40:12 AM
I think given the issues with away tickets, we'll start to have some very, very old season ticket holders over the next few years... A problem Liverpool have.
I can't work out what that means Ads !
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 29, 2023, 09:52:32 AM
I think given the issues with away tickets, we'll start to have some very, very old season ticket holders over the next few years... A problem Liverpool have.
I can't work out what that means Ads !
I believe he means that season tickets (especially in good seats) will be so prized that families won't want to give them up when the ST holders die.
Post by: four fornicholl on April 29, 2023, 09:54:27 AM
in the queue? Thanks.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on April 29, 2023, 09:57:09 AM
How do you check your position
in the queue? Thanks.
They've been sending out emails. The wife and nipper got theirs some days ago now.
Post by: FrankyH on April 29, 2023, 10:29:58 AM
I think given the issues with away tickets, we'll start to have some very, very old season ticket holders over the next few years... A problem Liverpool have.
I can't work out what that means Ads !
I believe he means that season tickets (especially in good seats) will be so prized that families won't want to give them up when the ST holders die.
Ah, thanks. Could be a new supporters club in the making.
" The Norman Bates Mom Lions"
Post by: eamonn on April 29, 2023, 04:02:13 PM
I think given the issues with away tickets, we'll start to have some very, very old season ticket holders over the next few years... A problem Liverpool have.
I can't work out what that means Ads !
I believe he means that season tickets (especially in good seats) will be so prized that families won't want to give them up when the ST holders die.
ST holders don't die, they become Holte Enders in the sky.
Post by: astonvilla82 on April 29, 2023, 05:49:18 PM
Like itI think given the issues with away tickets, we'll start to have some very, very old season ticket holders over the next few years... A problem Liverpool have.
I can't work out what that means Ads !
I believe he means that season tickets (especially in good seats) will be so prized that families won't want to give them up when the ST holders die.
ST holders don't die, they become Holte Enders in the sky.
Post by: DeKuip on April 29, 2023, 06:38:16 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on May 31, 2023, 12:18:59 PM
https://www.birminghamworld.uk/news/villa-park-residents-football-fans-4164046
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 31, 2023, 12:51:51 PM
Found this whilst looking for other news. My journey takes me past the Villa Chippy near Witton Road and we've often wondered why the council don't supply more large temporary bins on match day rather than pay man hours to clean up the huge amounts of rubbish left near overflowing bins.
https://www.birminghamworld.uk/news/villa-park-residents-football-fans-4164046
What a strange article that is. Disruption around football grounds is hardly news and the amount of beer bottles and violence reads like something from the seventies.
Post by: PeterWithe on May 31, 2023, 01:01:23 PM
But, if I lived locally and didn't have an interest in football, I think I'd look more kindly on the rich neighbours if they maybe helped clear up the area after games.
Post by: usav on May 31, 2023, 01:11:31 PM
Found this whilst looking for other news. My journey takes me past the Villa Chippy near Witton Road and we've often wondered why the council don't supply more large temporary bins on match day rather than pay man hours to clean up the huge amounts of rubbish left near overflowing bins.
https://www.birminghamworld.uk/news/villa-park-residents-football-fans-4164046
What a strange article that is. Disruption around football grounds is hardly news and the amount of beer bottles and violence reads like something from the seventies.
Exactly. It's like the editor decided we need to have some balance to all this good news about Villa recently and this was all they could come up with.
Post by: London Villan on May 31, 2023, 01:14:27 PM
No doubt the Villa can do more - but I don't think there is a srcuffier part of the city than the roads leading up to Villa Park
Post by: pauliewalnuts on May 31, 2023, 01:19:43 PM
Not really sure what she expected when buying a house (20 years ago) in the football stadium which has been there 125 years.
Sympathetic to the rest of the article, though.
Post by: PeterWithe on May 31, 2023, 01:29:04 PM
Post by: Drummond on May 31, 2023, 01:35:51 PM
I'm sure we've talked about this before but a temporary one way system away from the ground for half an hour or so after the final whistle would benefit pretty much everyone.
It worked perfectly only a few years ago.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on May 31, 2023, 01:51:24 PM
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/life-uks-grottiest-street-locals-26303540.amp
Post by: Percy McCarthy on May 31, 2023, 02:19:17 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-64552868
Post by: Hookeysmith on May 31, 2023, 02:25:26 PM
Or the cars regulary parked on double yellows around the island by the Witton arms.
No lets blame the Villa that, as someone has said, has been there 120+ years.
The council boils my piss with their myopic view of where we all live.
Post by: LeeB on May 31, 2023, 02:29:47 PM
Post by: London Villan on May 31, 2023, 02:35:06 PM
Villa could earn some brownie-points with the locals if they helped support a big tidy-up. But it would be a sh*thole again within a couple of weeks.
Post by: Dogtanian on May 31, 2023, 02:46:09 PM
What more do people want?
Post by: DeKuip on May 31, 2023, 03:46:56 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 31, 2023, 03:53:11 PM
And one of them fits perfectly too.
Well done Cinders
Post by: Dogtanian on May 31, 2023, 03:55:07 PM
And one of them fits perfectly too.
Well done Cinders
Yep, you gotta marry Dr Tony now.
Post by: eamonn on May 31, 2023, 04:28:44 PM
I see no residents complain about the Car wash at the end of the street ran by Albanians, the part dismantled cars parked everywhere due to the strip and chop garages that frequent the entire area. A stacked (on the pavement) tyre mountain next to one of the garages in the side street by the post office.
Or the cars regulary parked on double yellows around the island by the Witton arms.
No lets blame the Villa that, as someone has said, has been there 120+ years.
The council boils my piss with their myopic view of where we all live.
Albanian Car Wash - were these an offshoot or side-project of the Reverser?
Post by: algy on May 31, 2023, 04:30:00 PM
No, one of the great music rivalriesI see no residents complain about the Car wash at the end of the street ran by Albanians, the part dismantled cars parked everywhere due to the strip and chop garages that frequent the entire area. A stacked (on the pavement) tyre mountain next to one of the garages in the side street by the post office.
Or the cars regulary parked on double yellows around the island by the Witton arms.
No lets blame the Villa that, as someone has said, has been there 120+ years.
The council boils my piss with their myopic view of where we all live.
Albanian Car Wash - were these an offshoot or side-project of the Reverser?
Beatles Vs Rolling Stones
Oasis Vs Blur
African Car Reverser Vs Albanian Car Wash
Post by: LeeB on May 31, 2023, 04:32:19 PM
Post by: Hairbandinho on May 31, 2023, 04:48:07 PM
Post by: LeeB on May 31, 2023, 04:53:59 PM
The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
Great Barr looked rough last time I was over that way too
Post by: olaftab on May 31, 2023, 04:54:05 PM
I see no residents complain about the Car wash at the end of the street ran by Albanians, the part dismantled cars parked everywhere due to the strip and chop garages that frequent the entire area. A stacked (on the pavement) tyre mountain next to one of the garages in the side street by the post office.Who has blamed the Villa?
Or the cars regulary parked on double yellows around the island by the Witton arms.
No lets blame the Villa that, as someone has said, has been there 120+ years.
The council boils my piss with their myopic view of where we all live.
Post by: Hairbandinho on May 31, 2023, 05:06:03 PM
Post by: Nii Lamptey on May 31, 2023, 05:20:19 PM
Uncollected binbags split open and spilling over pavements, tyres and car remains dumped all over the place, broken glass everywhere - It really is a fucking mess, but I'd say that literally none of it is the fault of the football club.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 31, 2023, 05:36:03 PM
The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
What a horrible post.
Post by: DB on May 31, 2023, 05:49:23 PM
Whole area is a shithole tbh. You pretty much have to wipe your feet before getting back in your car..... and that's coming from someone that lives in the arse end of Worcestershire, in Kidderminster.
Uncollected binbags split open and spilling over pavements, tyres and car remains dumped all over the place, broken glass everywhere - It really is a fucking mess, but I'd say that literally none of it is the fault of the football club.
The walk from the Barton’s to VP is especially awful. Mattresses, open bin bags and various white goods on the streets.
Post by: Meanwood Villa on May 31, 2023, 05:57:47 PM
Post by: algy on May 31, 2023, 05:59:43 PM
The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.I don't think I agree with you there.
One thing I'd long noticed where I live is that Caia Parc council estate in Wrexham... you can see that when it was designed, it was designed as a utopia. Brook running through the whole estate as a beautiful centrepiece, big gardens, lots of open space, brilliantly designed for active travel (walking especially) but also works well by car. Good mix of houses, clear civic centre, ...
But when I moved to Wrexham, which was there, couldn't get out of it quick enough. All the usual bad shit - flat roof pubs, blatant drug use, brook filled with rubbish, ... Proper shithole.
Since Deadpool & Rob McElhenney took over Wrexham, though, there's been a noticeable change in the whole town, but especially that area. It's actually pleasant to walk down to the in-laws now, lovely walk down a brook, it's still obviously a deprived area but people seem to have started taking a bit more pride in where they live.
I guess what I'm saying is that you can't just put down nice facilities and expect everyone to embrace a new way of living their lives, but equally people taking pride in where they live is about a bit more than just "well, these people like to live in their own filth so fuck them", which is the crux of that post.
I don't have the answer, but what I do believe is that the club has a responsibility - as part of a community - to try to lead the way. It might not always be a success, but making Aston a nicer place to live - be that through jobs, infrastructure, or just being a good role model & member of the community - is a good thing to do. They are, after all, the people & community that is represented by the most beautifully named club in club football.
Post by: Lucky Eddie on May 31, 2023, 06:04:08 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 31, 2023, 06:08:58 PM
The walk from the Barton’s to VP is especially awful. Mattresses, open bin bags and various white goods on the streets.
Yeah, it featured quite heavily in the Bournemouth fan's vlog at Villa Park. One street in particular looked like a right kip.
Post by: PeterWithe on May 31, 2023, 06:20:40 PM
There's been an abandoned fridge on its side blocking a fair bit of the pavement on Whitehead Road since at least January. I don't think it's outside anyone's property so maybe everyone is leaving it to others to report.
Surprised at that as there seems to be more tatters around these days than ever, I only have to leave anything metal outside for 10 mins and its gone.
Post by: ChicagoLion on May 31, 2023, 06:58:03 PM
Accurate though.The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
What a horrible post.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on May 31, 2023, 07:41:43 PM
There's been an abandoned fridge on its side blocking a fair bit of the pavement on Whitehead Road since at least January. I don't think it's outside anyone's property so maybe everyone is leaving it to others to report.
Surprised at that as there seems to be more tatters around these days than ever, I only have to leave anything metal outside for 10 mins and its gone.
I live on a relatively posh 20 year old estate on the edge of Leamington and it's exactly the same here.
We had a skip on our drive for about a week whilst having a new kitchen and had four or five lots of them going through it.
Although, this being Royal Leamington Spa, most of them knocked the door and asked first.
Post by: Hairbandinho on May 31, 2023, 07:55:02 PM
The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
What a horrible post.
It's the truth. It costs nothing to take your rubbish to the local tip. The locals there just throw it in their front garden or pavement.
I don't know how often you go to games but I have to walk through it, avoiding rats and used needles every game.
That's horrible, not my post.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on May 31, 2023, 08:10:08 PM
Also, I am not suggesting this excuses littering, but:
Quote
It costs nothing to take your rubbish to the local tip
If you've got a car, yes.
Post by: PeterWithe on May 31, 2023, 08:12:47 PM
Post by: London Villan on May 31, 2023, 08:22:59 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 31, 2023, 08:32:49 PM
Some of the black bags outside the Villa Chippy on Manor Rd seem to have been there months, I wonder why the bin men dont collect them when they do the rounds?
Commerclal waste is treated differently to domestic.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 31, 2023, 08:36:05 PM
Post by: Exeter 77 on May 31, 2023, 08:56:27 PM
That was Whitehead Road with a three piece suite outside one of the houses.The walk from the Barton’s to VP is especially awful. Mattresses, open bin bags and various white goods on the streets.
Yeah, it featured quite heavily in the Bournemouth fan's vlog at Villa Park. One street in particular looked like a right kip.
Post by: Gerrin on May 31, 2023, 08:56:46 PM
There's been an abandoned fridge on its side blocking a fair bit of the pavement on Whitehead Road since at least January. I don't think it's outside anyone's property so maybe everyone is leaving it to others to report.
Surprised at that as there seems to be more tatters around these days than ever, I only have to leave anything metal outside for 10 mins and its gone.
Don't think they get anything for fridges as the refrigerant gas in them has to be disposed of responsibly.
Post by: Des Little on May 31, 2023, 09:49:51 PM
With a bit of TLC from all parties it could be a nice area with the Park and Villa Park obviously
Yes it could, however the sad reality is that within weeks it would return to its current state. It’s inevitable.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on May 31, 2023, 10:04:42 PM
With a bit of TLC from all parties it could be a nice area with the Park and Villa Park obviously
No it won't.
It would take much, much more than that - it is an area which has been extremely deprived for decades. Over a century, even.
You can't make things like that go away with a bit of a tidy up.
Post by: algy on May 31, 2023, 11:01:33 PM
No. But the problems will never go away if you don’t.With a bit of TLC from all parties it could be a nice area with the Park and Villa Park obviously
No it won't.
It would take much, much more than that - it is an area which has been extremely deprived for decades. Over a century, even.
You can't make things like that go away with a bit of a tidy up.
Post by: olaftab on June 01, 2023, 09:47:02 AM
It's a long walk from Barton's so good of locals to provide facilities for a rest.That was Whitehead Road with a three piece suite outside one of the houses.The walk from the Barton’s to VP is especially awful. Mattresses, open bin bags and various white goods on the streets.
Yeah, it featured quite heavily in the Bournemouth fan's vlog at Villa Park. One street in particular looked like a right kip.
Post by: avfc_1874 on June 01, 2023, 10:23:36 AM
The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
Yeah, it's exactly the same in areas like Bordesley Green, Winson Green, Small Heath & Newtown.
They overfill their wheelie bins, then just dump the binbags next to them, which just encourages Rodents to infest the area. I know this from formerly working for the council as these Rodents would eventually move into peoples homes & knock out their power from chewing cables.
Post by: artvandelay on June 01, 2023, 10:58:49 AM
Alternatively, the council provide inadequate amounts of wheelie bins which in turn causes rodent infestations for residents?The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
Yeah, it's exactly the same in areas like Bordesley Green, Winson Green, Small Heath & Newtown.
They overfill their wheelie bins, then just dump the binbags next to them, which just encourages Rodents to infest the area. I know this from formerly working for the council as these Rodents would eventually move into peoples homes & knock out their power from chewing cables.
Post by: DB on June 01, 2023, 11:03:11 AM
Alternatively, the council provide inadequate amounts of wheelie bins which in turn causes rodent infestations for residents?The disgusting state of Aston is nothing to do with Villa. The locals that live there have no pride or care for their own environment and it shows. Villa can't help if the locals themselves are happy to live in their own filth.
Yeah, it's exactly the same in areas like Bordesley Green, Winson Green, Small Heath & Newtown.
They overfill their wheelie bins, then just dump the binbags next to them, which just encourages Rodents to infest the area. I know this from formerly working for the council as these Rodents would eventually move into peoples homes & knock out their power from chewing cables.
Also a service to get rid of larger items, like mattresses and white goods, if they don't already (we have council service you can book pick up a few times of year). Not mentioned the little gas canisters...
Post by: Bad English on June 01, 2023, 11:35:45 AM
Post by: rob_bridge on June 01, 2023, 12:16:32 PM
In my *village* you can book free pick-up of large items every month. Come on Birmingham, you are 200 times bigger than us!
Its not that expensive in Brum. £30 quid or so for 10 big items.
Post by: andyh on June 01, 2023, 12:30:27 PM
Is it this summer, next or open ended. ?
Post by: Border villan on June 01, 2023, 12:44:08 PM
Forgive a stupid question but does anyone actually know when work is going to start on the new stand ?
Is it this summer, next or open ended. ?
Whenever they start I hope it’s open fronted and not open ended.
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 01, 2023, 12:44:35 PM
And that is central to most of societies problems nowadays - nobody cares about their own areas and those that do get terrorised by local scum who have seemingly impunity from the law when they feel like vandalising things.
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 01, 2023, 12:45:05 PM
Forgive a stupid question but does anyone actually know when work is going to start on the new stand ?
Is it this summer, next or open ended. ?
2024 - end of season
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 01, 2023, 12:55:20 PM
I would imagine that the car chop shops are a lucrative business, it must be based on the amount of stock they seem to have in cars awaiting dismantling. So the shithole of an area they create is not based on poor resources more a "dont give a fuck" attitude.
And that is central to most of societies problems nowadays - nobody cares about their own areas and those that do get terrorised by local scum who have seemingly impunity from the law when they feel like vandalising things.
The number of police on duty in the whole of the city is frighteningly low. Except for football matches; there's always enough police for football.
Post by: Ads on June 01, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
Post by: exigo on June 01, 2023, 01:49:21 PM
Post by: London Villan on June 01, 2023, 02:25:28 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 01, 2023, 04:22:07 PM
when the local kids were chasing Villa fans in Aston Park with machetes last season
Ah, bless them, the cheeky rascals!
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 01, 2023, 11:24:09 PM
when the local kids were chasing Villa fans in Aston Park with machetes last season
Ah, bless them, the cheeky rascals!
Bit of an upgrade from "mind your car mate"
Post by: olaftab on June 02, 2023, 12:34:19 AM
To be fair to the Police, when the local kids were chasing Villa fans in Aston Park with machetes last season, they were quick to react and for the next few games were positioned by the park with machine guns for the next few games...Armed police at Villa park? Don’t ever remember this, are you sure this happened?
Post by: tomd2103 on June 02, 2023, 12:44:10 AM
To be fair to the Police, when the local kids were chasing Villa fans in Aston Park with machetes last season, they were quick to react and for the next few games were positioned by the park with machine guns for the next few games...Armed police at Villa park? Don’t ever remember this, are you sure this happened?
I remember police around the park after that happened as I spoke to a couple of them when passing, but I don't recall them.being armed.
Post by: artvandelay on June 02, 2023, 01:21:53 AM
Post by: London Villan on June 02, 2023, 08:23:00 AM
Post by: The Edge on June 03, 2023, 10:35:53 AM
Post by: olaftab on June 03, 2023, 10:39:55 AM
100%, I had a chat with one of them.And you didn't get tasered? Lucky man.
Post by: Nev on June 03, 2023, 10:43:57 AM
They have removed all the seats from both corners of the lower North Stand. Don't know if it's for any construction work or if it's anything to do with upcoming events at Villa Park in the summer.
I believe that's for the gigs. The stage is that end and it will allow for emergency exits either side due to the number of people on the pitch.
Post by: olaftab on June 03, 2023, 10:46:47 AM
Post by: eamonn on June 03, 2023, 11:18:28 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 03, 2023, 03:58:44 PM
With gigs etc scheduled for June I take it we won't be laying a new pitch this season?
On the contrary, we must be, gigs and that motorbike thing will absolutely wreck the pitch.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on June 03, 2023, 04:07:29 PM
Is it Spurs who I think I heard lift the turf and send it to Yorkshire for nursing and then bring it back after the concert season?With gigs etc scheduled for June I take it we won't be laying a new pitch this season?
On the contrary, we must be, gigs and that motorbike thing will absolutely wreck the pitch.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 03, 2023, 04:19:25 PM
With gigs etc scheduled for June I take it we won't be laying a new pitch this season?
On the contrary, we must be, gigs and that motorbike thing will absolutely wreck the pitch.
Is it Spurs who I think I heard lift the turf and send it to Yorkshire for nursing and then bring it back after the concert season?
Is it Ajax that have a pitch that they can slide back in and out, or am I thinking of one of the Japanese World Cup stadia?
Post by: Des Little on June 03, 2023, 04:26:02 PM
Post by: LeeB on June 03, 2023, 07:33:15 PM
Madrid’s new pitch system is different gravy, look at this https://youtu.be/epef95O-EwY
Jaysus!
Post by: Sdwbvf on June 03, 2023, 07:46:58 PM
Post by: FatSam on June 03, 2023, 09:13:48 PM
Don't they have the same system at Spurs. Sure I saw it on a TV programme
Similar, at Spurs the pitch slides out horizontally under the end stand.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 04, 2023, 03:20:09 PM
Well worth a look.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 04, 2023, 03:21:44 PM
Post by: TheMalandro on June 04, 2023, 05:28:52 PM
Sapporo has had a sliding pitch since 2002 for the WC.
They moved the goal posts with that technology.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 04, 2023, 05:47:39 PM
Post by: eamonn on June 04, 2023, 06:28:40 PM
Post by: Dazvillain on June 05, 2023, 11:23:42 PM
With gigs etc scheduled for June I take it we won't be laying a new pitch this season?Put grass killer on it at weekend , started taking it up today. Doing it in stages around events. Video and pics on Twitter
Post by: Axl Rose on June 05, 2023, 11:59:47 PM
"Someone like that", how damning!
:D
Post by: artvandelay on June 06, 2023, 10:54:04 AM
I wonder if they'll announce the attendance towards the end of the show so we can all applaud...
Post by: Drummond on June 06, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
Interestingly there will be a Holte End Fanzone in the car park for the Bruce Springsteen gig, with the 'gates' being on the perimeter rather than the turnstiles. Understandable given the much higher capacity, but could this be something used in future?
I wonder if they'll announce the attendance towards the end of the show so we can all applaud...
Nah, they'll want the matchday car park.
Post by: olaftab on June 07, 2023, 05:51:49 PM
Post by: eamonn on June 07, 2023, 06:14:37 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on June 07, 2023, 06:18:26 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 07, 2023, 06:28:05 PM
Walking through Centenary Square this afternoon I saw Andy King having some publicity photos taken in front of the Metro stop. I approached and asked about Witton Station upgrade. Andy said "it's all happening and first tranche of cash has been approved and now waiting for full funding sign off. It will definitely be ready for Euro28 games at Villa Park."
That's very helpful but I am not sure why you thought a Bristol City player would know anything about a station upgrade in Birmingham.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 07, 2023, 06:31:43 PM
Walking through Centenary Square this afternoon I saw Andy King having some publicity photos taken in front of the Metro stop. I approached and asked about Witton Station upgrade. Andy said "it's all happening and first tranche of cash has been approved and now waiting for full funding sign off. It will definitely be ready for Euro28 games at Villa Park."
That's very helpful but I am not sure why you thought a Bristol City player would know anything about a station upgrade in Birmingham.
To be fair, it might have been the old Everton player. He’d definitely know.
Post by: Nev on June 07, 2023, 07:23:56 PM
Post by: Des Little on June 07, 2023, 08:03:46 PM
Walking through Centenary Square this afternoon I saw Andy King having some publicity photos taken in front of the Metro stop. I approached and asked about Witton Station upgrade. Andy said "it's all happening and first tranche of cash has been approved and now waiting for full funding sign off. It will definitely be ready for Euro28 games at Villa Park."
That's very helpful but I am not sure why you thought a Bristol City player would know anything about a station upgrade in Birmingham.
To be fair, it might have been the old Everton player. He’d definitely know.
If he wasn’t dead, you mean?
Post by: olaftab on June 07, 2023, 08:08:40 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 08, 2023, 04:16:10 AM
OK the word was from the Street. Not sure where King came from? Can’t even blame it on autocorrect😥
Haha, still, positive news anyway.
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 08, 2023, 01:29:59 PM
With gigs etc scheduled for June I take it we won't be laying a new pitch this season?Put grass killer on it at weekend , started taking it up today. Doing it in stages around events. Video and pics on Twitter
Can someone who has twitter post them please
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 08, 2023, 01:31:14 PM
Interestingly there will be a Holte End Fanzone in the car park for the Bruce Springsteen gig, with the 'gates' being on the perimeter rather than the turnstiles. Understandable given the much higher capacity, but could this be something used in future?
I wonder if they'll announce the attendance towards the end of the show so we can all applaud...
They do this for most concerts as they have their own ticket / turnstile people rather than use villa ones
Post by: exigo on June 08, 2023, 01:47:49 PM
With gigs etc scheduled for June I take it we won't be laying a new pitch this season?Put grass killer on it at weekend , started taking it up today. Doing it in stages around events. Video and pics on Twitter
Can someone who has twitter post them please
Twitter thread link here (https://twitter.com/Groundsman_Nath/status/1665678948477419520)
Post by: Dogtanian on June 08, 2023, 03:58:52 PM
Post by: The Edge on June 08, 2023, 04:36:02 PM
Post by: Goldenballs on June 18, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
Plans on hold, apparently.
Post by: Goldenballs on June 18, 2023, 01:42:40 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 18, 2023, 01:50:24 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 18, 2023, 02:01:25 PM
Not sure if this is old news or not.
Old news was on SHA, it's already been on there for an hour.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 18, 2023, 02:02:06 PM
Apparently the European Championship games here will bring > £100m to the local economy.
If the capacity does not get added by then, or if there is real risk it won’t, then we’ll miss out on hosting.
How embarrassing would that be for the region?
Post by: London Villan on June 18, 2023, 02:11:28 PM
2028 at the earliest. Just sums up public transport in brum.
Post by: AV82EC on June 18, 2023, 02:58:13 PM
Post by: The Edge on June 18, 2023, 03:22:10 PM
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on June 18, 2023, 05:50:31 PM
Post by: Des Little on June 18, 2023, 06:27:39 PM
Post by: LeeB on June 18, 2023, 07:20:40 PM
I was at Twickenham last night for a concert, and the difference in customer experience from VP is massive. Every aspect of getting in, getting food, drinks, merch, going to the toilets, and getting away from the stadium at the end is light years ahead of ours.
I was there too mate, fantastic night
Post by: London Villan on June 18, 2023, 07:33:23 PM
Perry Barr station got an upgrade didn't it?
For the commonwealth games, which it wasn’t finished for, which wasn’t a major issue as the athletes village at Perry Barr wasn’t finished either.
Post by: The Edge on June 18, 2023, 08:12:51 PM
Exactly. The apathy and snails pace construction is infuriating. Also there was a large amount of money from central government. The money for Witton Station redevelopment is coming from the club and the WMCA.Perry Barr station got an upgrade didn't it?
For the commonwealth games, which it wasn’t finished for, which wasn’t a major issue as the athletes village at Perry Barr wasn’t finished either.
Post by: Chap on June 18, 2023, 08:57:13 PM
Post by: Villafirst on June 18, 2023, 11:14:18 PM
Post by: FatSam on June 18, 2023, 11:23:51 PM
Post by: eamonn on June 19, 2023, 12:58:08 AM
Post by: Dave P on June 19, 2023, 07:16:22 AM
The decision on Euro 28 host isn’t made until September. Hosting games has been estimated to be worth over £100m to the city. I think WMCA might wait to make any decision on Witton Station until it has been confirmed.
I think this is the key. Its the old chicken and egg scenario. The council wont put the money in without the Euros coming to Birmingham and we wont start the stand work without the station confirmed.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 19, 2023, 08:10:11 AM
Post by: The Edge on June 19, 2023, 08:43:05 AM
And we won't get the Euros at Villa Park unless we can guarantee that the stadium upgrade will be completed well before 2028. It would seem we have a bit of a conundrum on our hands.The decision on Euro 28 host isn’t made until September. Hosting games has been estimated to be worth over £100m to the city. I think WMCA might wait to make any decision on Witton Station until it has been confirmed.
I think this is the key. Its the old chicken and egg scenario. The council wont put the money in without the Euros coming to Birmingham and we wont start the stand work without the station confirmed.
Post by: Risso on June 19, 2023, 09:21:24 AM
Villa need the stand whether the Euros come or not.
We do, but we also need the local transport infrastructure to be able to cope which it struggles with already.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 19, 2023, 09:27:01 AM
Post by: Risso on June 19, 2023, 09:52:03 AM
Agreed, but the planning permission isn't dependent on it, is it?
I don't think so legally, no. But it looks like the club aren't going to commit to anything until the council agrees to the station upgrade.
Post by: LeeB on June 19, 2023, 09:59:40 AM
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 19, 2023, 02:02:40 PM
Perry Barr station got an upgrade didn't it?
For the commonwealth games, which it wasn’t finished for, which wasn’t a major issue as the athletes village at Perry Barr wasn’t finished either.
And still isn't - not one apartment occupied as yet
Post by: Des Little on June 19, 2023, 10:05:41 PM
Post by: PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt on June 19, 2023, 10:21:10 PM
Getting home was an absolute nightmare, even as someone who know various routes back home. The road closure heading towards the city centre between spaghetti junction and Aston Train station meant loads of people not familiar with the area looking aimlessly at trying to get back into the city centre. No extra trains either from what I gather.
A superb gig, with lots of people from outside of the city very complimentary of the stadium but in disbelief at how shit it was to get away. Crazy really when right next to a motorway junction and two railway stations a few minutes walk away. (They did put on shuttle buses to be fair but I think a lot of folk didn't want to sit in the traffic for so long and took their chances with public transport)
Post by: Nev on June 19, 2023, 10:42:12 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 20, 2023, 08:57:10 AM
I know people will say it's what happens on the pitch that matters, but that's not my point.
Post by: Gareth on June 20, 2023, 09:56:31 AM
I was at the Springsteen gig on Friday, after a cheeky few in the Barton Arms heading to Villa Park was easy enough, arriving at the ground the ground was in effect split into four zones, A,B,C & D - with fans heading to that zone to access the ground with lots of Harris type fencing preventing you from walking around the ground like on a match day.
Getting home was an absolute nightmare, even as someone who know various routes back home. The road closure heading towards the city centre between spaghetti junction and Aston Train station meant loads of people not familiar with the area looking aimlessly at trying to get back into the city centre. No extra trains either from what I gather.
A superb gig, with lots of people from outside of the city very complimentary of the stadium but in disbelief at how shit it was to get away. Crazy really when right next to a motorway junction and two railway stations a few minutes walk away. (They did put on shuttle buses to be fair but I think a lot of folk didn't want to sit in the traffic for so long and took their chances with public transport)
I found it brilliant to get away by car….much much easier than Bon Jovi a few years back when it took well over an hour to get to the m6. Friday parked on Victoria Road and when got back to car was out onto expressway inside 2 mins. Wish it was like that match day as normally park on Aston manor coaches and it can take 45 mins+ to get over the roundabout by Motorpoint and up to expressway.
Post by: DB on June 20, 2023, 10:03:24 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 20, 2023, 10:20:28 AM
Need some Disney like trains going up and down the surrounding area :D
Post by: Villan82 on June 20, 2023, 10:37:51 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2023, 10:39:37 AM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 20, 2023, 10:44:25 AM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
The thought of moving to a new Lego stadium does not appeal
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2023, 10:45:32 AM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
Especially not since they've up everything just east of it for the bloody HS2
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 20, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Out of interest where is there somewhere suitable in or near Birmingham?Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
I am still pretty sure that many of the problems with VP are solvable with organisation imagination and commitment.
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2023, 11:04:06 AM
Out of interest where is there somewhere suitable in or near Birmingham?Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
I am still pretty sure that many of the problems with VP are solvable with organisation imagination and commitment.
I agree, it shouldn't be too hard, but I think it just exposes how acutely piss poor public transport in our city is as a whole rather than specifically around Villa Park
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2023, 11:08:26 AM
Out of interest where is there somewhere suitable in or near Birmingham?Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
I am still pretty sure that many of the problems with VP are solvable with organisation imagination and commitment.
I go back to what Simon Inglis said - the best place is Villa Park with better transport.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 20, 2023, 11:08:45 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 20, 2023, 11:11:36 AM
and if you took our existing problems to a brand new stadium it would still be a shit show.Out of interest where is there somewhere suitable in or near Birmingham?Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
I am still pretty sure that many of the problems with VP are solvable with organisation imagination and commitment.
I go back to what Simon Inglis said - the best place is Villa Park with better transport.
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2023, 11:12:16 AM
I think it has held the City back for decades.
Yeah, me too. And we get this fucking hugely disruptive white elephant of the HS2 instead which will mean you can get to London faster than you can get from Castle Bromwich to say Northfield
Post by: Chris Smith on June 20, 2023, 11:12:22 AM
Out of interest where is there somewhere suitable in or near Birmingham?Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
I am still pretty sure that many of the problems with VP are solvable with organisation imagination and commitment.
I agree, there are two stations within walking distance, 2 arterial roads (A34, A38), easy access to the Motorway system and several bus routes in all directions. Part of it is the type of improvements you suggest but also finding ways to stagger the times people leave the area. We’ve always tended to stay in Aston for a few pints after the game and it’s a doddle getting the trains once the immediate post match rush is over.
Post by: AV82EC on June 20, 2023, 11:14:33 AM
I think it has held the City back for decades.
Other than the obvious exception London poor transportation has held every British City back for decades. Poor skills and education and housing plays its part but Transport plays a huge negative role in our productivity issues as a nation.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2023, 11:16:27 AM
I think it has held the City back for decades.
Other than the obvious exception London poor transportation has held every British City back for decades. Poor skills and education and housing plays its part but Transport plays a huge negative role in our productivity issues as a nation.
"Our people drive cars" has been government philosophy for decades.
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2023, 11:18:27 AM
Post by: AV82EC on June 20, 2023, 11:25:20 AM
I think it has held the City back for decades.
Other than the obvious exception London poor transportation has held every British City back for decades. Poor skills and education and housing plays its part but Transport plays a huge negative role in our productivity issues as a nation.
"Our people drive cars" has been government philosophy for decades.
Quickly forgetting the fact we are a small island and certainly in England reasonably densely populated and you can’t tarmac over every bloody square inch of it.
Post by: Risso on June 20, 2023, 11:31:48 AM
Post by: DB on June 20, 2023, 11:46:45 AM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
Especially not since they've up everything just east of it for the bloody HS2
Ok, maybe not in close proximity to NEC but a site where we could look at as leverage to get things done for VP expansion.
Post by: DB on June 20, 2023, 11:48:22 AM
How hard can it be to upgrade a train station to be fit for purpose? They've just built an entire new train line through the middle of bloody London. Manchester got an entire new stadium, a velodrome and an aquatics centre on the back of its Commonwealth Games, what did Brum get? Holding up a major infrastructure improvement for the city's biggest club and its surrounding area is just peak Birmingham.
Agree, it will get done when they look at how much revenue it will bring in both for Villa events and the Euros.
Post by: BC Villain on June 20, 2023, 12:37:12 PM
Treasury Brain strikes again. Street needs to keep applying the pressure and earn his money.
You must be joking. I'm still waiting for Streets people to respond to my query about why I have to wait an hour for the 11 bus when it's supposed to be every 6 minutes.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2023, 12:43:35 PM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
Especially not since they've up everything just east of it for the bloody HS2
Ok, maybe not in close proximity to NEC but a site where we could look at as leverage to get things done for VP expansion.
There is nowhere. You'd need two motorway junctions, arterial roads leading to them, other roads leading to the arterial roads, train stations or other upgraded public transport and that's before the other infrastructure.
Post by: Chris Smith on June 20, 2023, 01:06:33 PM
How hard can it be to upgrade a train station to be fit for purpose? They've just built an entire new train line through the middle of bloody London. Manchester got an entire new stadium, a velodrome and an aquatics centre on the back of its Commonwealth Games, what did Brum get? Holding up a major infrastructure improvement for the city's biggest club and its surrounding area is just peak Birmingham.
Agree, it will get done when they look at how much revenue it will bring in both for Villa events and the Euros.
The problem with any project like this it has to be done while still allowing the station to be used. The upgrade at University has been going for a couple of years.
Post by: DB on June 20, 2023, 01:44:33 PM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
Especially not since they've up everything just east of it for the bloody HS2
Ok, maybe not in close proximity to NEC but a site where we could look at as leverage to get things done for VP expansion.
There is nowhere. You'd need two motorway junctions, arterial roads leading to them, other roads leading to the arterial roads, train stations or other upgraded public transport and that's before the other infrastructure.
I don’t think any of the UK’s +50k stadiums have anywhere near that level of infrastructure.
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2023, 01:47:49 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 20, 2023, 01:50:44 PM
I was amazed twice last season at how easy it was to get to and from Old Trafford with 75,000 people in attendance
So why is that ? Buses trains car parks , a combination
Post by: Risso on June 20, 2023, 01:53:06 PM
I don’t think any of the UK’s +50k stadiums have anywhere near that level of infrastructure.
I'd say these big stadia are all quite easy to access:
Newcastle - 10 mins walk out of the city centre and the train station, plus Newcastle has a metro.
West Ham - Main line train station 10 minutes walk (before the game, not after but that's another matter) and close to several tubes.
Arsenal - loads of tubes and one stop from Kings Cross
Old Trafford - on the edge an industrial park with a tram stop and surrounded by dual carriageways
Man City - out of town, decent tram connections and close to several major roads
Shit to get to:
Liverpool - in the middle of an old built up area, similar issues with narrow streets and lack of local infrastructure to Villa.
Spurs - in London, but a pain in the arse to get to.
Post by: Risso on June 20, 2023, 01:58:22 PM
I was amazed twice last season at how easy it was to get to and from Old Trafford with 75,000 people in attendance
So why is that ? Buses trains car parks , a combination
It's out of town, nowhere near any residential areas. It's got it's own tram station and the trams are a miles better option than the trains in Brum so they get people back into the city centre much more quickly. Plus it's bordered on two sides by two major A roads, which are both dual carriageways so it's easier to keep going. Villa is surrounded by narrow residential streets with everybody trying to go in one of two ways mainly. And there are loads of pinch points (junctions, traffic lights etc) which slows everybody down.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 20, 2023, 01:59:53 PM
I wonder if its possible to dust off those plans to build the 'sprint' bus lanes back into town which were part of the Commonwealth plans but were, I think, abandoned?
Post by: LeeB on June 20, 2023, 02:05:50 PM
I was amazed twice last season at how easy it was to get to and from Old Trafford with 75,000 people in attendance
So why is that ? Buses trains car parks , a combination
Trams as well
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2023, 02:08:29 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 20, 2023, 02:10:46 PM
The crux of the problem is that we're funneling traffic onto what used to be and maybe still is the busiest stretch of motorway in Western Europe while trains have to go through the hopelessly inadequate Proofhouse Junction.tbf getting onto the motorway after games (via the Expressway at least) is never much of a problem. It tends to be the gridlocks at junctions and lights before that.
Post by: Gareth on June 20, 2023, 02:31:43 PM
Maybe the club threaten to move to a site nr the NEC to get the transport issue moving. Moving Villa to Solihul, def no for me but may focus a few people at BCC.
There's no suitable land near the NEC.
Especially not since they've up everything just east of it for the bloody HS2
Ok, maybe not in close proximity to NEC but a site where we could look at as leverage to get things done for VP expansion.
There is nowhere. You'd need two motorway junctions, arterial roads leading to them, other roads leading to the arterial roads, train stations or other upgraded public transport and that's before the other infrastructure.
Villa Park is always the right place, for me the only sentiment left is around the site of VP itself…the stadium lost its mystique when Ellis vandalised the Trinity with the Lego carbuncle….the Holte facade is all that is particularly special nowadays in my eyes.
The transport etc can be vastly improved with inclination…the clubs only driver is to get planning approved, we are kidding ourselves if we think they have any interest in improving the experience for us once we have purchased our tickets.
Out of town parking with shuttle buses can work to alleviate some of the congestion, however you know the clubs first instinct will be see what they can make out of it £ wise rather than see the bigger picture….saw that last game when they ran buses and charged was it £5 per person per way…I park for a fiver with 4 in the car, others park for free why would anyone pay those prices?
Train stations need upgrading - don’t think anyone holds their breath on that one
Traffic flow could be improved if the authorities were bothered, one way systems for 2/3 hours before and after games to stop the Ubers et. going against the flow towards the ground…perhaps a designated taxi rank.…traffic control at junctions / roundabouts where the traffic stops…always seem plenty of police in the ground, don’t see many afterwards trying to help people get clear of the ground.
I’d hazard a guess that Purslow when he was there or anyone else with any power has never been outside the ground on match day or been on a concourse to see the shit service and facilities…they truly don’t care…there might be a bit of angst about low spend per head but they aren’t bothered so long as the seats are full.
They feed this bull of with the new stand we’ll have the zone for people to go before / after the game being an answer - that won’t accommodate nearly as many as the capacity increases by - don’t get me wrong it will be a nice facility for those that want to use it but it won’t take away numbers trying to get in/away.
Post by: Drummond on June 20, 2023, 02:35:54 PM
The crux of the problem is that we're funneling traffic onto what used to be and maybe still is the busiest stretch of motorway in Western Europe while trains have to go through the hopelessly inadequate Proofhouse Junction.tbf getting onto the motorway after games (via the Expressway at least) is never much of a problem. It tends to be the gridlocks at junctions and lights before that.
When it was made one way for an hour or so after games, to get to the motorways it worked really well. For cars at least. I suppose they need to sort the public transport issue, because that would reduce the number of cars.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 20, 2023, 02:36:55 PM
Post by: Risso on June 20, 2023, 02:39:37 PM
The crux of the problem is that we're funneling traffic onto what used to be and maybe still is the busiest stretch of motorway in Western Europe while trains have to go through the hopelessly inadequate Proofhouse Junction.tbf getting onto the motorway after games (via the Expressway at least) is never much of a problem. It tends to be the gridlocks at junctions and lights before that.
Yes once you're onto the Expressway, things are normally OK. It's the 45 minutes it can often take to get to the Expressway in the first place that's the problem.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 20, 2023, 02:50:41 PM
The crux of the problem is that we're funneling traffic onto what used to be and maybe still is the busiest stretch of motorway in Western Europe while trains have to go through the hopelessly inadequate Proofhouse Junction.tbf getting onto the motorway after games (via the Expressway at least) is never much of a problem. It tends to be the gridlocks at junctions and lights before that.
Yes once you're onto the Expressway, things are normally OK. It's the 45 minutes it can often take to get to the Expressway in the first place that's the problem.
I'd also say that in recent seasons, they've managed to make that actually much worse than it used to be by pissing around with the traffic flow up Aston Lane.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 20, 2023, 02:52:01 PM
The crux of the problem is that we're funneling traffic onto what used to be and maybe still is the busiest stretch of motorway in Western Europe while trains have to go through the hopelessly inadequate Proofhouse Junction.tbf getting onto the motorway after games (via the Expressway at least) is never much of a problem. It tends to be the gridlocks at junctions and lights before that.
When it was made one way for an hour or so after games, to get to the motorways it worked really well. For cars at least. I suppose they need to sort the public transport issue, because that would reduce the number of cars.
Ah yes this is what I was referring to in the post above. They've totally fucked that up by removing the one way. Genuinely have no idea who thought that'd improve things and ages later not realised it made things much worse.
Post by: Drummond on June 20, 2023, 03:20:56 PM
Post by: Drummond on June 20, 2023, 03:23:47 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 20, 2023, 04:32:38 PM
“Not sure where to put this, but as the discussion is about Villa Park and Witton train station, might as well go here.
I visited Birmingham for the first time on Friday to see Springsteen at VP, and i was impressed with New Street, seems a fairly modern train station, staff were very friendly, and even though it was 5pm Friday on the day of a big concert, i didn't get any 'chaos' vibes at all.
Got to Witton and my heart sank as i knew there was zero chance of getting back on the train for the return journey.
I don't blame Villa at all, its not their job to build the country's infrastructure, that is the job of government and council. You can have any amount of subsidy for projects that benefit the top 1%, but football fans and anyone outside of the M25 can just go **** themselves it seems.
As well as a big redevelopment of Witton station, it is absolutely crying out for a tramline down the A34 into the City centre to facilitate the movement of supporters to and from the ground (and spur investment on the route). This would have been done 50 years ago in every other Western European country, but we're so beaten down here and just seem to love licking that boot and accepting our fate.
Anyway, concert was great of course, didn't get to see much of Birmingham due to lack of time, but it does feel 'under construction' in a big way. I think if progress continues + HS2 etc, the city centre will look amazing in 10-15 years time.
Final word - we of course had to walk the 3-4km back in to town from Villa Park after the concert, which was not so bad as it was a lovely warm summer evening, the journey only dampened by being shot at with a pellet/BB gun by someone in a speeding car on the A34. I'm assuming this is a local custom for welcoming guests to the city 😁
I'm pleased to report although 3 of us were hit, no lasting damage :)”
Blimey!
Post by: astonvilla82 on June 20, 2023, 06:11:40 PM
From the Villa Park expansion thread on skyscrapercity:could you have got on at Aston after the concert
“Not sure where to put this, but as the discussion is about Villa Park and Witton train station, might as well go here.
I visited Birmingham for the first time on Friday to see Springsteen at VP, and i was impressed with New Street, seems a fairly modern train station, staff were very friendly, and even though it was 5pm Friday on the day of a big concert, i didn't get any 'chaos' vibes at all.
Got to Witton and my heart sank as i knew there was zero chance of getting back on the train for the return journey.
I don't blame Villa at all, its not their job to build the country's infrastructure, that is the job of government and council. You can have any amount of subsidy for projects that benefit the top 1%, but football fans and anyone outside of the M25 can just go **** themselves it seems.
As well as a big redevelopment of Witton station, it is absolutely crying out for a tramline down the A34 into the City centre to facilitate the movement of supporters to and from the ground (and spur investment on the route). This would have been done 50 years ago in every other Western European country, but we're so beaten down here and just seem to love licking that boot and accepting our fate.
Anyway, concert was great of course, didn't get to see much of Birmingham due to lack of time, but it does feel 'under construction' in a big way. I think if progress continues + HS2 etc, the city centre will look amazing in 10-15 years time.
Final word - we of course had to walk the 3-4km back in to town from Villa Park after the concert, which was not so bad as it was a lovely warm summer evening, the journey only dampened by being shot at with a pellet/BB gun by someone in a speeding car on the A34. I'm assuming this is a local custom for welcoming guests to the city 😁
I'm pleased to report although 3 of us were hit, no lasting damage :)”
Blimey!
Post by: Flamingo Lane on June 20, 2023, 06:29:19 PM
I myself went to opposite the station, to catch a 65 bus into the city centre. But no traffic at all seemed to be coming up (down?) the Lichfield Road, and no sign of any bus coming. None of the people waiting for the bus seemed to have a clue what was happening. I personally was loathe to walk into the city centre from there, so walked back towards the ground, and basically ended up cadging a lift with three people I saw getting into an uber, who very kindly allowed me to travel with them. I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been more publicity given to the situation(s) that I believe many strangers to the city and the area will have found themselves in after the concert.
Post by: andyh on June 20, 2023, 06:59:42 PM
The fact these people were ‘shot’ - albeit with a BB gun - is utterly disgusting.
Our lowest scum fuckers in our wonderful city do absolutely fuck all but to enhance the outside opinion that Birmingham is a shit hole.
Post by: London Villan on June 20, 2023, 08:14:09 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on June 20, 2023, 08:31:36 PM
Aston station after the game going into the city involved a huge queue, I doubt if all those in the queue would have been able to get on a train before they stopped running.little trick I do when required, catch the Aston to gravelly hill train, minutes away,get off at gravelly hill cross over and catch the train into the city, obviously depending on timing of both trains if you're fussy
I myself went to opposite the station, to catch a 65 bus into the city centre. But no traffic at all seemed to be coming up (down?) the Lichfield Road, and no sign of any bus coming. None of the people waiting for the bus seemed to have a clue what was happening. I personally was loathe to walk into the city centre from there, so walked back towards the ground, and basically ended up cadging a lift with three people I saw getting into an uber, who very kindly allowed me to travel with them. I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been more publicity given to the situation(s) that I believe many strangers to the city and the area will have found themselves in after the concert.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 20, 2023, 09:23:41 PM
That account posted by Percy about someone’s first experience of Birmingham is so disappointing and makes grim reading.
The fact these people were ‘shot’ - albeit with a BB gun - is utterly disgusting.
Our lowest scum fuckers in our wonderful city do absolutely fuck all but to enhance the outside opinion that Birmingham is a shit hole.
Oh I dunno, although maybe if they’d done it with a blunderbuss it would have added to the authentic Peaky Blinders experience.
I was home from VP after Bruce in fraction of the time it usually takes me after a Villa game.
Post by: BC Villain on June 20, 2023, 11:08:28 PM
https://twitter.com/johntownley11/status/1670389644398317568?t=st5gZ8bnYij8-Xhw5Gi_fA&s=19
Plans on hold, apparently.
On hold = political speak for abandoned....
Post by: FatSam on June 21, 2023, 07:26:52 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 21, 2023, 08:03:19 AM
I had a lot of trouble navigating that link due to the sheer volume of pop-up advertising, but I don’t think it is actually a new story. There are no quotes from the club, or a club statement to say that plans are on hold. We already knew that Witton station was holding things up. That is why work is not starting this summer.
Yeah, I thought this was known months ago.
Post by: Ads on June 21, 2023, 09:06:17 AM
Post by: aj2k77 on June 21, 2023, 09:46:25 AM
Post by: Rico on June 21, 2023, 09:57:44 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 21, 2023, 09:57:47 AM
Post by: Chris Smith on June 21, 2023, 10:10:53 AM
Can they start to rebuild without the upgrade to the train station, or is one dependant on the other?
There was something about improving transport links being an integral part of the plan when permission was granted so it looks like they are part of the same package.
Post by: algy on June 21, 2023, 10:13:43 AM
It's absolutely unbelievable that it's still a problem.
Post by: cdward on June 21, 2023, 10:23:50 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 21, 2023, 10:23:59 AM
The transport thing around Villa Park is absolutely crazy. I mean, if you were picking a site to newbuild a football ground, then one right next to a motorway - and buy a large industrial estate so presumably one that'd regularly have reasonably high volumes of traffic - within easy walking distance of two railway stations, covering 2 separate railway lines, 2/3 stops away from what's basically the most important railway station outside London ... I mean, it'd seem an obvious location, wouldn't it?
It's absolutely unbelievable that it's still a problem.
Then you hear crazy stuff like mile-long queues at the train stations as trains come and go without leaving full, or with a frequency of service that takes no account of the increased number of people travelling.
Plus the removal of one way systems on the roads and the total lack of any real coordination to make things better, it is an absolute joke.
Expanding the station is an absolute must, yes, but the coordination of the transport on match days as a whole is an utter fucking mess and needs to be looked at too.
Post by: Nev on June 21, 2023, 10:31:52 AM
At the Springsteen gig it was single decker coaches on private hire picking up from the opposite side of the City to the ground. It's not difficult to see the issues here.
Post by: algy on June 21, 2023, 10:49:36 AM
The shuttle bus for Edgbaston was half the price of the one to Villa Park and used NE double deckers. They picked up on the south side of the city, the same side as the destination.Yeah, that's the thing. Went to a few events at the commonwealth games last year, and the shuttle service was brilliant. The whole thing was so impressive, really showed the city off in the best possible light I felt.
At the Springsteen gig it was single decker coaches on private hire picking up from the opposite side of the City to the ground. It's not difficult to see the issues here.
Now, you maybe don't expect everything to be run to quite the same standard as that type of one-off event with loads of (awesome) volunteers making everything go smoothly and whatnot - but the drop off compared with going to Villa Park ... I mean, it's difficult to understand how they manage to turn it in to the clusterfuck that it evidently is.
Post by: Risso on June 21, 2023, 11:00:54 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 21, 2023, 11:08:39 AM
Post by: Ads on June 21, 2023, 11:15:28 AM
You just have to hope that the Purslow exit heralds a complete reversal of the previous attentioyto these problems.
It's not a Villa problem, but it's clear Purslow was exerting pressure on Street as he kept joking about the station, even saying he'd invite Purslow back after it was completed following Purslow's departure.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 21, 2023, 11:26:28 AM
They brought coaches in from all round the country to cope with that demand though and it was at the taxpayers expense. Also bear in mind the stadium held 10k less than VP.The shuttle bus for Edgbaston was half the price of the one to Villa Park and used NE double deckers. They picked up on the south side of the city, the same side as the destination.Yeah, that's the thing. Went to a few events at the commonwealth games last year, and the shuttle service was brilliant. The whole thing was so impressive, really showed the city off in the best possible light I felt.
At the Springsteen gig it was single decker coaches on private hire picking up from the opposite side of the City to the ground. It's not difficult to see the issues here.
Now, you maybe don't expect everything to be run to quite the same standard as that type of one-off event with loads of (awesome) volunteers making everything go smoothly and whatnot - but the drop off compared with going to Villa Park ... I mean, it's difficult to understand how they manage to turn it in to the clusterfuck that it evidently is.
But I agree, some sort of reasonably priced shuttle bus shouldn't be that difficult to implement here.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 21, 2023, 11:27:13 AM
Getting to and from the ground is very much a Villa problem, do you think that the CEO of Villa has no influence over what happens regarding transport?You just have to hope that the Purslow exit heralds a complete reversal of the previous attentioyto these problems.
It's not a Villa problem, but it's clear Purslow was exerting pressure on Street as he kept joking about the station, even saying he'd invite Purslow back after it was completed following Purslow's departure.
I was also referring to the catering shit show that has been around for years now.
Post by: olaftab on June 21, 2023, 11:41:26 AM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 21, 2023, 12:07:29 PM
Fwiw, if you think it's difficult navigating Birmingham by public transport, give it a go in the Black Country. Try travelling the 5 miles from Wednesfield to Bescott without using a car to watch the women's of a weekend in less time than it takes to walk it.
Post by: Ads on June 21, 2023, 12:10:29 PM
Getting to and from the ground is very much a Villa problem, do you think that the CEO of Villa has no influence over what happens regarding transport?You just have to hope that the Purslow exit heralds a complete reversal of the previous attentioyto these problems.
It's not a Villa problem, but it's clear Purslow was exerting pressure on Street as he kept joking about the station, even saying he'd invite Purslow back after it was completed following Purslow's departure.
I was also referring to the catering shit show that has been around for years now.
If you have to exert influence, its because you cannot directly impact the decision making, which we can't. The road and rail network around Villa Park causes problems for the club, but it isn't the club's problem.
Purslow had been exerting pressure, hence the Mayor making jokey references to it. But its for local government to solve.
Post by: Risso on June 21, 2023, 12:35:18 PM
It's not a problem. Everybody gets there, everybody gets home, every game. We'd all like it to be better, quicker, more pleasant, easier, cheaper, less hurried, but I'm struggling to think of any other aspect of my life that I couldn't also apply that wishlist to. It's not a Villa issue, it's a regional issue that gets brought into our focus once a fortnight for 9½ months a year.
It is a problem. We shouldn't have to tolerate it being as shit as it is.
Post by: eamonn on June 21, 2023, 12:52:28 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 21, 2023, 12:59:35 PM
It is absolutely not a villa problem. Issue lies with the local authority. It's their job to ensure infrastructure and transport systems serve the community and therefore a major venue like Villa Park needs to properly facilitised. The Club provides a fully funded attraction for the city.
Yeah fuck it. I hope we end up with a 70k capacity and tell the council to just fucking cope with our massiveness.
Post by: Des Little on June 21, 2023, 01:07:48 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 21, 2023, 01:21:56 PM
We're fcuked if we are relying on Birmingham City council to deliver anything. They an utter waste of space from top to bottom.
Our local politicians are annoyingly crap, particularly when, like me, you’ve just got back from the UoB and seen what can be achieved. Oh for another Joe Chamberlain. Dick Knowles and Albert Bore I liked.
Is that prick Stewart Stacey still knocking about?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 21, 2023, 01:25:52 PM
Is Chris Heck gonna kick some arse with this?
Absolutely.
He's CCO of an organisation that has 30,000 people literally asking to give them at least 500 quid a year. That's a lot of untapped revenue in that.
Post by: Ducksworthy on June 21, 2023, 01:31:12 PM
We're fcuked if we are relying on Birmingham City council to deliver anything. They an utter waste of space from top to bottom.
Our local politicians are annoyingly crap, particularly when, like me, you’ve just got back from the UoB and seen what can be achieved. Oh for another Joe Chamberlain. Dick Knowles and Albert Bore I liked.
Is that prick Stewart Stacey still knocking about?
My granddad took Albert Bore leaving worse than Mad Nad took Johnson going.
Post by: Risso on June 21, 2023, 02:44:15 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on June 21, 2023, 03:10:55 PM
Post by: TheMalandro on June 21, 2023, 09:47:07 PM
Post by: Stinkin_Thinkin on June 22, 2023, 11:54:48 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 22, 2023, 11:58:20 AM
As someone alluded to earlier in the thread if it was Mcdonalds or Tesco's building a new store they pay for the roads to be altered. I remember the tescos build by burnt tree island, well, they totally deleted the island. Why wouldn't the billionaires want to pay and have it to their spec? Look at how beautiful Bournville is. I always thought the road going under the trinity was ridiculous and maybe should have been re-positioned. Compromises never look great.You think owners should spend £30m on a train station whilst fans are having 30% season ticket price hikes?
Post by: paul_e on June 22, 2023, 12:13:34 PM
Post by: sid1964 on June 22, 2023, 12:19:01 PM
We had 8 million visitors to the Zoo and Black Country Museum last year and yet the high street which is within walking distance of both attractions is a disgrace ( it has been voted one of the worst high streets in the country)
Post by: London Villan on June 22, 2023, 12:21:45 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on June 22, 2023, 01:08:02 PM
If you think Birmingham Council is bad you should live in Dudley, the council here is a disgrace and has been for 20 years+was at Dudley town hall for a concert and couldn't believe how run down it was
We had 8 million visitors to the Zoo and Black Country Museum last year and yet the high street which is within walking distance of both attractions is a disgrace ( it has been voted one of the worst high streets in the country)
Post by: algy on June 22, 2023, 01:29:37 PM
Witton needs an additional platform, queuing system and segregation. That is much more work than a new road island. Also has regional implications for the rail network.I do wonder with Wilton if it might be running trains around that loop through Handsworth - so a special match/event shuttle running Witton - Perry Barr - (handsworth) - Birmingham New Street.
I mean, it may be impossible, but I’d imagine that might be a way to alleviate at least some of the problems, timed to coincide with the southbound cross city line trains at Aston so it minimises problems in that regard.
- it can arrive on the platform that you’d usually expect Birmingham trains to go on, but just run out of the station in the ‘wrong’ direction.
Potentially could eventually reinstate a station in Handsworth to allow passengers to transfer from the shuttle train to the trams if it proved worthwhile, but operational and useful even if it never happened.
Post by: paul_e on June 22, 2023, 01:41:47 PM
If you think Birmingham Council is bad you should live in Dudley, the council here is a disgrace and has been for 20 years+
We had 8 million visitors to the Zoo and Black Country Museum last year and yet the high street which is within walking distance of both attractions is a disgrace ( it has been voted one of the worst high streets in the country)
High streets are a very different proposition, they've been dying out for years (and covid accelerated this massively) because they've been edged out from all sides.
It started with retail parks and supermarkets, 1 place with easy access for cars and loads of parking against streets that are impossible for parking, often have limited access/one-way systems or narrow residential streets all around.
Then you add on the rise of online retailers and the convenience/cost-saving and it's another nail in the coffin.
Fixing public transport links is actually one of the best things you can do to help high streets and communities in general, which is why it's baffling how difficult it is to get funding for projects like this. Tram and rail network improvements meet requirements for environmental, community and economic targets and should be near the top of list for councils acorss the country.
Post by: DB on June 22, 2023, 03:50:15 PM
If you think Birmingham Council is bad you should live in Dudley, the council here is a disgrace and has been for 20 years+was at Dudley town hall for a concert and couldn't believe how run down it was
We had 8 million visitors to the Zoo and Black Country Museum last year and yet the high street which is within walking distance of both attractions is a disgrace ( it has been voted one of the worst high streets in the country)
Same here when I go back, I got diverted through the town due to the metro works. But over the years, Dudley has been ripped apart....no rail station, both football and cricket ground closed, Merry Hill and Waterfront opened 2 miles away, no investment and a shit council.
Post by: PaulMcGrathsNo5Shirt on June 22, 2023, 11:05:49 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 22, 2023, 11:11:10 PM
I'm 50. When I was first dragged to Villa Park as a nipper it was done by bus, bus to Bearwood and then jump on the No11. After the game there would be loads of buses lined up almost directly outside the ground, heading in all directions to get fans home. To get a bus back now is a joke, the trains are shambles, as are the train stations. It's no wonder that so many drive. Then we wonder why parking spots are so hard to find.
In the last few years, it has actually got worse.
And it's not just about capacity crowds, we had plenty of those in the MON years and it wasn't as bad as it is now.
There is zero joined-up thinking. It's like the powers that be - the police, the council, the train companies - don't give a flying fuck.
Post by: FatSam on June 22, 2023, 11:19:15 PM
If you think Birmingham Council is bad you should live in Dudley, the council here is a disgrace and has been for 20 years+Not that it changes the point that you are making, but I think you might have exaggerated those visitor numbers by a factor of 10.
We had 8 million visitors to the Zoo and Black Country Museum last year and yet the high street which is within walking distance of both attractions is a disgrace ( it has been voted one of the worst high streets in the country)
Post by: The Edge on June 23, 2023, 10:59:04 AM
Spot onI'm 50. When I was first dragged to Villa Park as a nipper it was done by bus, bus to Bearwood and then jump on the No11. After the game there would be loads of buses lined up almost directly outside the ground, heading in all directions to get fans home. To get a bus back now is a joke, the trains are shambles, as are the train stations. It's no wonder that so many drive. Then we wonder why parking spots are so hard to find.
In the last few years, it has actually got worse.
And it's not just about capacity crowds, we had plenty of those in the MON years and it wasn't as bad as it is now.
There is zero joined-up thinking. It's like the powers that be - the police, the council, the train companies - don't give a flying fuck.
Post by: LeeB on June 23, 2023, 11:17:00 AM
Spot onI'm 50. When I was first dragged to Villa Park as a nipper it was done by bus, bus to Bearwood and then jump on the No11. After the game there would be loads of buses lined up almost directly outside the ground, heading in all directions to get fans home. To get a bus back now is a joke, the trains are shambles, as are the train stations. It's no wonder that so many drive. Then we wonder why parking spots are so hard to find.
In the last few years, it has actually got worse.
And it's not just about capacity crowds, we had plenty of those in the MON years and it wasn't as bad as it is now.
There is zero joined-up thinking. It's like the powers that be - the police, the council, the train companies - don't give a flying fuck.
To be fair, this doesn't just apply to our issues, it's pretty much all aspects of civic life
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 23, 2023, 11:18:47 AM
Post by: astonvilla82 on June 23, 2023, 10:29:57 PM
It doesn't help when the infrastructure that already exists isn't being used. On the Cross City line there was barely a match last season that wasn't affected by reduced or no services - a huge number of supporters who should be using public transport couldn't for loads of home games, and that is before the ludicrous queuing system they seem to have place at Aston Station now where people are forced to queue up along the pavement and alleyways despite the platforms being half empty. It's beyond frustrating watching trains going off half-empty when you haven't been able to get to the platform in time.Also it doesn't help when people won't move away from the doorway and block other people from getting on
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 23, 2023, 10:51:05 PM
I'm 50. When I was first dragged to Villa Park as a nipper it was done by bus, bus to Bearwood and then jump on the No11. After the game there would be loads of buses lined up almost directly outside the ground, heading in all directions to get fans home. To get a bus back now is a joke, the trains are shambles, as are the train stations. It's no wonder that so many drive. Then we wonder why parking spots are so hard to find.
In the last few years, it has actually got worse.
And it's not just about capacity crowds, we had plenty of those in the MON years and it wasn't as bad as it is now.
There is zero joined-up thinking. It's like the powers that be - the police, the council, the train companies - don't give a flying fuck.
Even back then you had plenty of shuttle buses parked up on Witton Lane taking fans back to Tamworth, Redditch and a few other venues.
The missed opportunity was the Trams I think, just focusing on city centre extensions instead of pushing it towards Star City and down the A34 and also A51 up to the Alex stadium but ultimately they would probably take a decade to be built.
With the new Academy building opening the other side of Witton station you have potential for more daily footfall but train frequency is only every half hour so that's why you get the bottle neck queues on matchdays.
Don't think the CC line is ever going back to 6 trains an hour post covid either so can't see anything changing in near future which is going to be a bit of a problem with 50k + crowds descending in the near future.
It's funny though, all these issues and the last time I can recall a kick off being delayed was that Liverpool cup game over 20 years ago.
Was in the Holte upper corner by Witton a few times last season and could see down in the gap hundreds queueing to get in after the game had kicked off. Also missed a few kick offs from arriving at 2.45pm and going into the North Stand so actually interested how many thousands have to be outside for call to go in to delay until something like 3.15-3.30?
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 23, 2023, 10:55:05 PM
It doesn't help when the infrastructure that already exists isn't being used. On the Cross City line there was barely a match last season that wasn't affected by reduced or no services - a huge number of supporters who should be using public transport couldn't for loads of home games, and that is before the ludicrous queuing system they seem to have place at Aston Station now where people are forced to queue up along the pavement and alleyways despite the platforms being half empty. It's beyond frustrating watching trains going off half-empty when you haven't been able to get to the platform in time.
One thing that would help imo is do what they do in Bundesliga and you get a matchday travelcard to use with purchase of ticket or it gets loaded with a season card.
That to me is one way to sort transport queues out. You can hop on the 11 for no charge and get to Erdington and then get on another bus to Sutton/Four Oaks rather than waste away an hour or two waiting at Aston Station with CrossCity roulette.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 24, 2023, 12:29:03 AM
It has to be about the train service first and foremost plus some actual coordination of other transport.
It has actually got significantly worse in recent years
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 24, 2023, 12:31:01 AM
It doesn't help when the infrastructure that already exists isn't being used. On the Cross City line there was barely a match last season that wasn't affected by reduced or no services - a huge number of supporters who should be using public transport couldn't for loads of home games, and that is before the ludicrous queuing system they seem to have place at Aston Station now where people are forced to queue up along the pavement and alleyways despite the platforms being half empty. It's beyond frustrating watching trains going off half-empty when you haven't been able to get to the platform in time.
One thing that would help imo is do what they do in Bundesliga and you get a matchday travelcard to use with purchase of ticket or it gets loaded with a season card.
That to me is one way to sort transport queues out. You can hop on the 11 for no charge and get to Erdington and then get on another bus to Sutton/Four Oaks rather than waste away an hour or two waiting at Aston Station with CrossCity roulette.
Re the travel card thing, yes absolutely agree
I remember about twenty years ago Newcastle had a match ticket / free transport on the bus and metro agreement.
In terms of coordination we are in the dark ages.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 24, 2023, 12:39:19 AM
It doesn't help when the infrastructure that already exists isn't being used. On the Cross City line there was barely a match last season that wasn't affected by reduced or no services - a huge number of supporters who should be using public transport couldn't for loads of home games, and that is before the ludicrous queuing system they seem to have place at Aston Station now where people are forced to queue up along the pavement and alleyways despite the platforms being half empty. It's beyond frustrating watching trains going off half-empty when you haven't been able to get to the platform in time.
One thing that would help imo is do what they do in Bundesliga and you get a matchday travelcard to use with purchase of ticket or it gets loaded with a season card.
That to me is one way to sort transport queues out. You can hop on the 11 for no charge and get to Erdington and then get on another bus to Sutton/Four Oaks rather than waste away an hour or two waiting at Aston Station with CrossCity roulette.
Re the travel card thing, yes absolutely agree
I remember about twenty years ago Newcastle had a match ticket / free transport on the bus and metro agreement.
In terms of coordination we are in the dark ages.
The club have tried, tried and tried again. The travel companies aren't interested.
Post by: London Villan on June 24, 2023, 08:36:28 AM
80,000 journeys on a match day. Wonder how that compares with the total number if journeys on a saturday, probably a small percentage. .
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 24, 2023, 09:44:43 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 24, 2023, 10:04:31 AM
Free travel with a match ticket would be the forward thinking thing to do.
80,000 journeys on a match day. Wonder how that compares with the total number if journeys on a saturday, probably a small percentage. .
It wouldn’t be anywhere near that number, so shouldn’t really be that big a deal for them.
Although tbh without improvements to the public transport network it wouldn’t really improve that much.
Certainly for rail it’d just make it worse.
Post by: garyellis on June 24, 2023, 10:16:48 AM
Another reason why key transport should be under local control like in LondonIt doesn't help when the infrastructure that already exists isn't being used. On the Cross City line there was barely a match last season that wasn't affected by reduced or no services - a huge number of supporters who should be using public transport couldn't for loads of home games, and that is before the ludicrous queuing system they seem to have place at Aston Station now where people are forced to queue up along the pavement and alleyways despite the platforms being half empty. It's beyond frustrating watching trains going off half-empty when you haven't been able to get to the platform in time.
One thing that would help imo is do what they do in Bundesliga and you get a matchday travelcard to use with purchase of ticket or it gets loaded with a season card.
That to me is one way to sort transport queues out. You can hop on the 11 for no charge and get to Erdington and then get on another bus to Sutton/Four Oaks rather than waste away an hour or two waiting at Aston Station with CrossCity roulette.
Re the travel card thing, yes absolutely agree
I remember about twenty years ago Newcastle had a match ticket / free transport on the bus and metro agreement.
In terms of coordination we are in the dark ages.
The club have tried, tried and tried again. The travel companies aren't interested.
Post by: exigo on June 24, 2023, 10:43:28 AM
Post by: garyellis on June 24, 2023, 11:55:27 AM
The drop to four trains an hour from Aston isn't the core issue. Two blokes limiting numbers allowed up onto the platform is the issue. Because that means the few precious trains are leaving at 20% capacity.Agree that is ridiculous. What is the view of the local councillors on the current inefficiencies?
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 24, 2023, 12:29:35 PM
The drop to four trains an hour from Aston isn't the core issue. Two blokes limiting numbers allowed up onto the platform is the issue. Because that means the few precious trains are leaving at 20% capacity.Agree that is ridiculous. What is the view of the local councillors on the current inefficiencies?
that’s crazy. Couldn’t they build screens like on the jubilee line which open when the train is on the (packed) platform? Relatively cheap and safe.
Post by: luke95 on June 24, 2023, 12:32:50 PM
The drop to four trains an hour from Aston isn't the core issue. Two blokes limiting numbers allowed up onto the platform is the issue. Because that means the few precious trains are leaving at 20% capacity.
Passengers don't help there tho , instead of using the whole platform the majority tend to wait at one end , giving the impression the platform is packed when infact its far from packed .
It certainly needs marshaling better.
Post by: Sdwbvf on June 25, 2023, 08:28:03 AM
The drop to four trains an hour from Aston isn't the core issue. Two blokes limiting numbers allowed up onto the platform is the issue. Because that means the few precious trains are leaving at 20% capacity.
Passengers don't help there tho , instead of using the whole platform the majority tend to wait at one end , giving the impression the platform is packed when infact its far from packed .
It certainly needs marshaling better.
At Witton they fill the trains before they leave. Train leaves, let people on the platform, yell at them to move down to the end. Then train arrives load up, then let another platform load on. Rinse repeat. Still horrible queue at times. Even with the Rugeley trains diverted to pick up as well. And the round the circle football specials. My problem is that back in the early 90s when we had lower crowds, British Rail used to put on 8 coaches for the football specials now they have 3 or 4.
Post by: wittonwarrior on June 25, 2023, 01:25:25 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 25, 2023, 01:47:00 PM
The drop to four trains an hour from Aston isn't the core issue. Two blokes limiting numbers allowed up onto the platform is the issue. Because that means the few precious trains are leaving at 20% capacity.Agree that is ridiculous. What is the view of the local councillors on the current inefficiencies?
that’s crazy. Couldn’t they build screens like on the jubilee line which open when the train is on the (packed) platform? Relatively cheap and safe.
That (screens thing) would be as far from cheap as it possible to be.
There’s a massive difference between trains and screens working in harmony on a tube line built to be that way and retro fitting it to older rolling stock that was never built to do that.
Post by: IFWaters on June 25, 2023, 03:27:30 PM
Perhaps the club will have to sort this out running a match day fleet of buses for the first couple of miles away from VP. 50 buses running back and forth for the first couple of miles away from the ground to other transport hubs and parking could help as could making the ground a better place to stay for a while afterwards.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 25, 2023, 07:05:05 PM
Have the club ever surveyed how people get to and from games? Would be useful to know as a starting point. Much as people want more trains laid on I would think that's one of the hardest to do as train economics are in decline since COVID, less people using them.
Perhaps the club will have to sort this out running a match day fleet of buses for the first couple of miles away from VP. 50 buses running back and forth for the first couple of miles away from the ground to other transport hubs and parking could help as could making the ground a better place to stay for a while afterwards.
Yes, they have done surveys, several times. It's just that the findings seem to reach deaf ears.
I do wonder if new leadership is actually going to make them start to think about moving.
I'd rather hack my own head off with a rusty pen knife than move to the NEC (even if there were land there), and would much, much rather stay, but if they continue to find themselves banging their head off a brick wall, I do wonder if this will become an option.
Post by: N'ZMAV on June 25, 2023, 07:30:35 PM
Post by: Villafirst on June 25, 2023, 07:44:02 PM
Post by: Drummond on June 25, 2023, 07:50:44 PM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Post by: N'ZMAV on June 25, 2023, 07:56:53 PM
I'm ok that we disagree :) - the route I went to the ground today, the local couple of miles to the ground were a dog hole. I wouldn't be rushing to move round there.part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Post by: Risso on June 25, 2023, 07:57:56 PM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Come off it.
Post by: tomd2103 on June 25, 2023, 09:20:17 PM
Have the club ever surveyed how people get to and from games? Would be useful to know as a starting point. Much as people want more trains laid on I would think that's one of the hardest to do as train economics are in decline since COVID, less people using them.
Perhaps the club will have to sort this out running a match day fleet of buses for the first couple of miles away from VP. 50 buses running back and forth for the first couple of miles away from the ground to other transport hubs and parking could help as could making the ground a better place to stay for a while afterwards.
Probably missed a trick with the Commonwealth Games and developing some kind of park and ride facility at the Alexander Stadium. .
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 25, 2023, 10:41:10 PM
As for where we are, it would be great if there were no houses between Witton Lane and the new academy/railway line. We could probably go as high as 70,000 then.
Post by: Lsvilla on June 25, 2023, 10:58:07 PM
I’d love us to be a bit closer to the city centre so we could all drink in/walk from town. Isn’t there room in the Gun Quarter?This is the kind of thinking we need. Why aim for 50k - that should be the absolute start and keep on building. We'd fill it for sure.
As for where we are, it would be great if there were no houses between Witton Lane and the new academy/railway line. We could probably go as high as 70,000 then.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on June 25, 2023, 11:05:03 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVsJ9pGXoAAHu7N.jpg)
Post by: Axl Rose on June 25, 2023, 11:07:05 PM
This is what we need, one million capacity.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVsJ9pGXoAAHu7N.jpg)
Built especially for those who've been to Bruges
Post by: PeterWithesShin on June 25, 2023, 11:10:36 PM
Attendance v Crewe in the LC 3rd round: 642,258
A post on here an hour later
"it's a disgrace!"
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 25, 2023, 11:27:51 PM
I’d love us to be a bit closer to the city centre so we could all drink in/walk from town. Isn’t there room in the Gun Quarter?
As for where we are, it would be great if there were no houses between Witton Lane and the new academy/railway line. We could probably go as high as 70,000 then.
This is the kind of thinking we need. Why aim for 50k - that should be the absolute start and keep on building. We'd fill it for sure.
Depends on whether we keep the round badge.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 26, 2023, 12:14:44 AM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Ha ha, really?
Come on, let's be honest, Aston is a deprived, ropey as fuck area.
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 26, 2023, 09:08:49 AM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Ha ha, really?
Come on, let's be honest, Aston is a deprived, ropey as fuck area.
No arguing that Aston is deprived, but it's also reductive to just call it a shit-hole. Our ground is overlooked by a stately home, and Aston itself has lots of the best examples of Victorian architecture still standing in the city. It's also a place where thousands of people are employed and literally 5 minutes up the road in Perry Barr is one of the biggest regeneration schemes in the country. The redevelopment of Villa Park should be an anchor for improving the whole area.
Post by: Drummond on June 26, 2023, 09:29:18 AM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Ha ha, really?
Come on, let's be honest, Aston is a deprived, ropey as fuck area.
No arguing that Aston is deprived, but it's also reductive to just call it a shit-hole. Our ground is overlooked by a stately home, and Aston itself has lots of the best examples of Victorian architecture still standing in the city. It's also a place where thousands of people are employed and literally 5 minutes up the road in Perry Barr is one of the biggest regeneration schemes in the country. The redevelopment of Villa Park should be an anchor for improving the whole area.
Yes, this.
I think calling it a shithole is just being rude.
People live there, it's a deprived part of the city and needs investment. I'm not surprised the local community didn't object to our planning application because it's sympathetic to the need of the community and will help to improve it.
Sometimes people need help to improve a community, not to be stigmatised.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on June 26, 2023, 10:30:41 AM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
Serious investment in the area and a some genuine support from forward thinking politicians could turn things around. Also, there may be posters on here who live nearby so not the most diplomatic of posts.
I notice from your location that you’re in an area (just down the road from me) that only a few years ago was a total shithole but now enjoys “up and coming” status. So, things can change.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 26, 2023, 11:49:39 AM
part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
Serious investment in the area and a some genuine support from forward thinking politicians could turn things around. Also, there may be posters on here who live nearby so not the most diplomatic of posts.
I notice from your location that you’re in an area (just down the road from me) that only a few years ago was a total shithole but now enjoys “up and coming” status. So, things can change.
Yes, there is a £2.2 billion investment plan for Ladywood between now and 2040. Imagine that involving stakeholders like Aston Villa, Tesco, Aston University and other local employers. City Centre connectivity is the key, as it is for all inner-city Birmingham. Undoing the damage of the concrete collar.
Post by: paul_e on June 26, 2023, 12:10:14 PM
As percy says there is the start of some investment coming through now and connectivity/transport needs to be a big part of that. Even if the club weren't doing anything the transport links to Aston/Witton need to be improved and that needs to be centrally funded. This government (and many before it) has consistently found huge pots of money to get rich people across London quickly and easily, now it needs to show a willingness to do the same for areas that have been in decline for a generation or longer.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 26, 2023, 12:28:59 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 26, 2023, 02:28:21 PM
And now HS2 has been frozen, imagine what a small part of that money could do for the transport infrastructure of Birmingham.
Has HS2 been frozen? Seeing plenty of work going on round here. Would be a disaster for Brum to halt things now anyway.
Post by: algy on June 26, 2023, 02:37:29 PM
Work's paused at Euston, and for the northern (Birmingham to Manchester) section of HS2.And now HS2 has been frozen, imagine what a small part of that money could do for the transport infrastructure of Birmingham.
Has HS2 been frozen? Seeing plenty of work going on round here. Would be a disaster for Brum to halt things now anyway.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 26, 2023, 03:13:02 PM
Its a disaster anyway. They are getting the Euston site ready to close it, I would imagine its the same with Bham.And now HS2 has been frozen, imagine what a small part of that money could do for the transport infrastructure of Birmingham.
Has HS2 been frozen? Seeing plenty of work going on round here. Would be a disaster for Brum to halt things now anyway.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 26, 2023, 03:29:15 PM
Its a disaster anyway. They are getting the Euston site ready to close it, I would imagine its the same with Bham.And now HS2 has been frozen, imagine what a small part of that money could do for the transport infrastructure of Birmingham.
Has HS2 been frozen? Seeing plenty of work going on round here. Would be a disaster for Brum to halt things now anyway.
Getting ready to close it after spending the last few months putting the viaduct piers in place? Also just about to start constructing the deck? Time will tell I suppose. They seem very busy working round by me though. Has nobody told them it’s over?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W7R2eviWu60&pp=ygUSSHMyIHByb2plY3QgdXBkYXRl
Maybe you can tell that bloke in the comments about your bad news CL.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 26, 2023, 03:40:01 PM
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 26, 2023, 03:49:00 PM
Hs2 hasn't been frozen at all, at least not the bit that is under construction right now.
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Out of interest, does anyone here imagine they will be making much use of it when it opens?
Post by: algy on June 26, 2023, 03:56:11 PM
Once things are moved on to there, it should open up a load of additional capacity at Birmingham New Street. That'll be the big improvement IMO - obviously it's a good thing being able to get to London 20mins quicker, but it's more about creating capacity elsewhere in the network.Hs2 hasn't been frozen at all, at least not the bit that is under construction right now.
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Out of interest, does anyone here imagine they will be making much use of it when it opens?
Really don't understand why they've not made that a big selling point - it's the biggest reason for building a new line over upgrading existing lines. They can run more local services if they don't need to make space for the ones going to London ... and have more services to London on top of that.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 26, 2023, 04:01:16 PM
Hs2 hasn't been frozen at all, at least not the bit that is under construction right now.
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Out of interest, does anyone here imagine they will be making much use of it when it opens?
I assume it'll be given to one of the government's favoured outsourcing partners to run, and that said outsourcing partner will have carte blanche to charge even more than the current bandits do for normal trains. In short, I doubt it!
Post by: paul_e on June 26, 2023, 04:04:32 PM
Once things are moved on to there, it should open up a load of additional capacity at Birmingham New Street. That'll be the big improvement IMO - obviously it's a good thing being able to get to London 20mins quicker, but it's more about creating capacity elsewhere in the network.Hs2 hasn't been frozen at all, at least not the bit that is under construction right now.
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Out of interest, does anyone here imagine they will be making much use of it when it opens?
Really don't understand why they've not made that a big selling point - it's the biggest reason for building a new line over upgrading existing lines. They can run more local services if they don't need to make space for the ones going to London ... and have more services to London on top of that.
Yep, a new line between London and Birmingham has bene needed for ages, especially since it's the main link to the airport as well. I reckon national trains are responsible for a big chunk of the problems with the local trains in the city and, without huge investment in trams, we really need to free up that space to make public transport a viable alternative to cars for people. Doing both would be even better but I've long given up on ever seeing a proper tram network in the city.
Post by: IFWaters on June 26, 2023, 04:20:53 PM
I still think Villa part finding a fleet of 50 + buses to run shuttles to and from starcity , city centre, Alexander stadium with parking there would help.buses given priority near villa park and 30 minute round trips could move 8,000 people an hour over what there is now. If people willing to spend an extra hour at villa live after that's 16,000 that could be moved in 2 hours post match. The bus travel could be included insome tickets. Is it really beyond the wit of man to do this in Birmingham?
Post by: Des Little on June 26, 2023, 04:31:57 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 26, 2023, 05:21:08 PM
Once things are moved on to there, it should open up a load of additional capacity at Birmingham New Street. That'll be the big improvement IMO - obviously it's a good thing being able to get to London 20mins quicker, but it's more about creating capacity elsewhere in the network.Hs2 hasn't been frozen at all, at least not the bit that is under construction right now.
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Out of interest, does anyone here imagine they will be making much use of it when it opens?
Really don't understand why they've not made that a big selling point - it's the biggest reason for building a new line over upgrading existing lines. They can run more local services if they don't need to make space for the ones going to London ... and have more services to London on top of that.
Yep, a new line between London and Birmingham has bene needed for ages, especially since it's the main link to the airport as well. I reckon national trains are responsible for a big chunk of the problems with the local trains in the city and, without huge investment in trams, we really need to free up that space to make public transport a viable alternative to cars for people. Doing both would be even better but I've long given up on ever seeing a proper tram network in the city.
I hadn’t thought about the impact on the existing lines, it makes more sense now to be honest. As long as they do take advantage of it to improve local services.
Post by: paul_e on June 26, 2023, 05:28:34 PM
Once things are moved on to there, it should open up a load of additional capacity at Birmingham New Street. That'll be the big improvement IMO - obviously it's a good thing being able to get to London 20mins quicker, but it's more about creating capacity elsewhere in the network.Hs2 hasn't been frozen at all, at least not the bit that is under construction right now.
They're apparently well past the point of no return. They've tunnelled halfway across the Chilterns for a start.
Out of interest, does anyone here imagine they will be making much use of it when it opens?
Really don't understand why they've not made that a big selling point - it's the biggest reason for building a new line over upgrading existing lines. They can run more local services if they don't need to make space for the ones going to London ... and have more services to London on top of that.
Yep, a new line between London and Birmingham has bene needed for ages, especially since it's the main link to the airport as well. I reckon national trains are responsible for a big chunk of the problems with the local trains in the city and, without huge investment in trams, we really need to free up that space to make public transport a viable alternative to cars for people. Doing both would be even better but I've long given up on ever seeing a proper tram network in the city.
I hadn’t thought about the impact on the existing lines, it makes more sense now to be honest. As long as they do take advantage of it to improve local services.
It's not just the lines, New Street runs right on the edge of it's capacity because of the tunnels, if that could be reduced by a few trains per hour it'd help a lot.
Post by: luke95 on June 26, 2023, 05:59:31 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 26, 2023, 06:17:11 PM
If your a regular user of the cross city line & have seen the state of Kings Norton & Northfield Stations then you know BCC & the Train companies don't like to spend any cash on the railways. Really can't see either rushing to upgrade Witton.
I wouldn’t have thought it’s anything to do with the council. Not financially anyway. I certainly don’t expect them to spend what little they’ve been left with by the Tories helping out private companies. I’d rather they didn’t have to slash social services than read about more cases like little Arthur and stuff like that.
WMCA and Railtrack/Network Rail shoukd be responsible for this.
Post by: Ger Regan on June 26, 2023, 07:53:42 PM
I still think Villa part finding a fleet of 50 + buses to run shuttles to and from starcity , city centre, Alexander stadium with parking there would help.buses given priority near villa park and 30 minute round trips could move 8,000 people an hour over what there is now. If people willing to spend an extra hour at villa live after that's 16,000 that could be moved in 2 hours post match. The bus travel could be included insome tickets. Is it really beyond the wit of man to do this in Birmingham?Fine in theory, but would there really be 50+ bus drivers just lying idle to do a gig for a few hours every fortnight? There's a pretty major shortage of drivers internationally, so I'm not really sure you'd get the numbers needed to make a dent in the demand.
Post by: N'ZMAV on June 26, 2023, 08:31:38 PM
I've helped Aston quite a lot over the past 27 years and pumped thousands and thousands of pounds into that local community. I've played my part ;)part of the trouble is, like many football grounds, it's in the middle of a shit hole.
It's really not.
Ha ha, really?
Come on, let's be honest, Aston is a deprived, ropey as fuck area.
No arguing that Aston is deprived, but it's also reductive to just call it a shit-hole. Our ground is overlooked by a stately home, and Aston itself has lots of the best examples of Victorian architecture still standing in the city. It's also a place where thousands of people are employed and literally 5 minutes up the road in Perry Barr is one of the biggest regeneration schemes in the country. The redevelopment of Villa Park should be an anchor for improving the whole area.
Yes, this.
I think calling it a shithole is just being rude.
People live there, it's a deprived part of the city and needs investment. I'm not surprised the local community didn't object to our planning application because it's sympathetic to the need of the community and will help to improve it.
Sometimes people need help to improve a community, not to be stigmatised.
Post by: Dave P on June 27, 2023, 08:22:47 AM
Post by: DB on June 27, 2023, 08:31:38 AM
So the Foo Fighters are playing VP next summer. I hope this won’t delay the new stand further?
No, as previously said, these things run like clockwork. Liverpool have built and new stand while still putting on matches with the old standard still in use.
Post by: London Villan on June 27, 2023, 08:47:45 AM
Post by: Bully2345 on June 27, 2023, 10:25:31 AM
Post by: DB on June 27, 2023, 12:09:42 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 27, 2023, 12:15:26 PM
Demolition won't take long, I am sure the powers at be have not put the new stand at risk by a concert.
But will the new stand face the right way?
Post by: Drummond on June 27, 2023, 12:18:33 PM
Demolition won't take long, I am sure the powers at be have not put the new stand at risk by a concert.
But will the new stand face the right way?
Well we're looking to be an outwardly facing club..........
Post by: LeeB on June 27, 2023, 12:34:35 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 27, 2023, 12:49:58 PM
Demolition won't take long, I am sure the powers at be have not put the new stand at risk by a concert.
But will the new stand face the right way?
*Snarf*
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 27, 2023, 02:02:24 PM
The North Stand would be the least worst place to experience a Foo Fighters concert at Villa Park
It's the best, the best, the best of view.*
*Foo Fighters could also go in the 'Things you don't get' In off Topic.
Post by: Des Little on June 27, 2023, 02:12:24 PM
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on June 27, 2023, 04:13:36 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 27, 2023, 04:45:15 PM
Are they boring dad rock or shouty-shouty rock? Make your mind's up 🙂
Boring dad shouty rock.
Post by: Richard on June 27, 2023, 07:05:30 PM
Post by: Chap on June 27, 2023, 08:01:21 PM
Are they boring dad rock or shouty-shouty rock? Make your mind's up 🙂
Boring dad shouty rock.
There’s nothing wrong with Boring dad shouty rock, or Grandad shouty rock these days.🤣
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on June 27, 2023, 08:26:24 PM
Are they boring dad rock or shouty-shouty rock? Make your mind's up 🙂
Boring dad shouty rock.
I was waiting for you SE!
Post by: Ads on June 27, 2023, 08:48:12 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 27, 2023, 08:51:37 PM
Post by: OCD on June 27, 2023, 08:56:14 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 27, 2023, 09:08:14 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 27, 2023, 09:15:04 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 27, 2023, 09:16:08 PM
The Foo Fighters. The band Nirvana could have been!
Someone should have told him they were great.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 27, 2023, 09:26:28 PM
I can't imagine the Foo Fighters coming up with Smells Like Teen Spirit or Come As You Are.
Killing Joke could give it a go.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 27, 2023, 09:42:23 PM
Post by: john2710 on June 27, 2023, 10:45:04 PM
In recent years I've ended up parking further & further away from the ground, whilst at the same time having to arrive earlier.
I was at the San Siro last season for a Champions League game & it's impressive how they can disperse 80k+ people without hassle. There are dozens of food & drink areas around the perimeter of the stadium & they're open after the game. We delayed leaving & had another drink. There's multiple stations in a short area around the ground. Trains turn up every 2-3 minutes. There's 500 people on the platform waiting to get on the train, 500 waiting in a holding area & thousands outside waiting to be let through 500 at a time. It's not difficult to find a solution if there's the will & investment.
But I'm not expecting to see anything of any value coming from the council nor the train companies.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 27, 2023, 10:48:03 PM
I've rarely used public transport to get to & from Villa Park since the mid 1980's. On the odd occasions I have, I've been stuck outside Aston station for an hour trying to get home. Arriving home at least an hour later than if I'd gone by car. With 3 of us it's also significantly more expensive than driving.
In recent years I've ended up parking further & further away from the ground, whilst at the same time having to arrive earlier.
I was at the San Siro last season for a Champions League game & it's impressive how they can disperse 80k+ people without hassle. There are dozens of food & drink areas around the perimeter of the stadium & they're open after the game. We delayed leaving & had another drink. There's multiple stations in a short area around the ground. Trains turn up every 2-3 minutes. There's 500 people on the platform waiting to get on the train, 500 waiting in a holding area & thousands outside waiting to be let through 500 at a time. It's not difficult to find a solution if there's the will & investment.
But I'm not expecting to see anything of any value coming from the council nor the train companies.
In their case it is not about trains at all. Milan has a large underground system, that's a massive, massive difference. Mass transit systems like that can move thousands of people in a few minutes.
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 27, 2023, 11:06:54 PM
Have the club ever surveyed how people get to and from games? Would be useful to know as a starting point. Much as people want more trains laid on I would think that's one of the hardest to do as train economics are in decline since COVID, less people using them.
Perhaps the club will have to sort this out running a match day fleet of buses for the first couple of miles away from VP. 50 buses running back and forth for the first couple of miles away from the ground to other transport hubs and parking could help as could making the ground a better place to stay for a while afterwards.
Didn't they have park and ride from the Fort during the Commonwealth games?
I'm always surprised they don't run a shuttle service from Star City as I get a lift there when we play midweek and always plenty walking back so demand would be there....unless we priced it at the levels we are from Birmingham city centre.
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 27, 2023, 11:17:12 PM
If your a regular user of the cross city line & have seen the state of Kings Norton & Northfield Stations then you know BCC & the Train companies don't like to spend any cash on the railways. Really can't see either rushing to upgrade Witton.
Isn't Kings Norton getting upgraded with the Kings Heath, Moseley and Hazelwell stations getting opened at some point in next few years?
Sums up the transport thinking though originally those trains were suppose to commence from Moor Street but chords cost too much so they'll be another addition to New Street.
What I actually think would be quite useful would be a matchday shuttle from the Airport to say Walsall and back. They could run that through the spur line that goes from Stechford up to Aston and meets the Cross City line. It's only used for freight and late night diversions so surely could be some paths for two an hour and it would help getting fans back south of the Midlands rather than clogging up existing services into New Street.
Small Heath have trains calling at Bordesley on Matchdays so not like there can't be alterations and they probably only have about 5 fans getting off at that station.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 27, 2023, 11:26:17 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 28, 2023, 01:05:44 AM
If your a regular user of the cross city line & have seen the state of Kings Norton & Northfield Stations then you know BCC & the Train companies don't like to spend any cash on the railways. Really can't see either rushing to upgrade Witton.
Isn't Kings Norton getting upgraded with the Kings Heath, Moseley and Hazelwell stations getting opened at some point in next few years?
Sums up the transport thinking though originally those trains were suppose to commence from Moor Street but chords cost too much so they'll be another addition to New Street.
What I actually think would be quite useful would be a matchday shuttle from the Airport to say Walsall and back. They could run that through the spur line that goes from Stechford up to Aston and meets the Cross City line. It's only used for freight and late night diversions so surely could be some paths for two an hour and it would help getting fans back south of the Midlands rather than clogging up existing services into New Street.
Small Heath have trains calling at Bordesley on Matchdays so not like there can't be alterations and they probably only have about 5 fans getting off at that station.
Strange but true fact - Bordesley has to have one train a week by law.
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 28, 2023, 05:20:58 AM
Problem is that if a (reasonably priced) shuttle service was put on, a lot more people would start parking there. Then the Star City visitors would complain thay couldn't park, the traders would start to lose custom, and put a stop to match parking.Have the club ever surveyed how people get to and from games? Would be useful to know as a starting point. Much as people want more trains laid on I would think that's one of the hardest to do as train economics are in decline since COVID, less people using them.
Perhaps the club will have to sort this out running a match day fleet of buses for the first couple of miles away from VP. 50 buses running back and forth for the first couple of miles away from the ground to other transport hubs and parking could help as could making the ground a better place to stay for a while afterwards.
Didn't they have park and ride from the Fort during the Commonwealth games?
I'm always surprised they don't run a shuttle service from Star City as I get a lift there when we play midweek and always plenty walking back so demand would be there....unless we priced it at the levels we are from Birmingham city centre.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 28, 2023, 08:16:28 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2023, 09:07:50 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on June 28, 2023, 09:09:59 AM
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2023, 09:41:47 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 28, 2023, 11:07:07 AM
So I bet they do get extra business from fans parking there.
Post by: Drummond on June 28, 2023, 11:11:10 AM
I've been to maccies, the crazy golf, pizza hut, and the cinema at Star City, and all only because we were in the area anyway for a match.
So I bet they do get extra business from fans parking there.
Sounds like quite a night out that.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2023, 11:15:08 AM
I've been to maccies, the crazy golf, pizza hut, and the cinema at Star City, and all only because we were in the area anyway for a match.Fans parking there is one thing. Offering the whole thing up for park and ride is quite another.
So I bet they do get extra business from fans parking there.
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 28, 2023, 11:25:14 AM
If your a regular user of the cross city line & have seen the state of Kings Norton & Northfield Stations then you know BCC & the Train companies don't like to spend any cash on the railways. Really can't see either rushing to upgrade Witton.
Isn't Kings Norton getting upgraded with the Kings Heath, Moseley and Hazelwell stations getting opened at some point in next few years?
Sums up the transport thinking though originally those trains were suppose to commence from Moor Street but chords cost too much so they'll be another addition to New Street.
What I actually think would be quite useful would be a matchday shuttle from the Airport to say Walsall and back. They could run that through the spur line that goes from Stechford up to Aston and meets the Cross City line. It's only used for freight and late night diversions so surely could be some paths for two an hour and it would help getting fans back south of the Midlands rather than clogging up existing services into New Street.
Small Heath have trains calling at Bordesley on Matchdays so not like there can't be alterations and they probably only have about 5 fans getting off at that station.
Strange but true fact - Bordesley has to have one train a week by law.
Ah right, one of those Parliamentary services where it's more costly to actually shut the run down station.
What was I saying about the Kings Heath line yesterday, 12 month delay:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66037299
I don't think we'll see a significant upgrade of Witton station until early 2028 as surely that is part of our bid to host Euro 2028 so will probably be some painting and sprucing up of the immediately surroundings. And a tunnel from the academy building to VP.
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 28, 2023, 11:29:16 AM
Why would star city put in place a parking validation scheme with associated costs to implement just to help Villa 19 times a year?
I've gone to watch films there in early Afternoon and it's like a ghost town so I do think it can increase footfall a bit for midweek games, maybe some special offers showing validity of match/season ticket.
Saturday and Sunday less so. It's just an idea.
No idea on rates but a Villa theme Sports Bar would be good aswell. I go in the Spoons at Perry Bar for midweek and it's always rammed there up to 7.15pm. Mostly due to the train station a minute away but pretty sure they had 50% off food for season ticket holders a while back so the potential is there.
Post by: eamonn on June 28, 2023, 11:31:09 AM
I've been to maccies, the crazy golf, pizza hut, and the cinema at Star City, and all only because we were in the area anyway for a match.
So I bet they do get extra business from fans parking there.
Sounds like quite a night out that.
Star, Starcrazy.
Post by: Dogtanian on June 28, 2023, 11:38:14 AM
I've been to maccies, the crazy golf, pizza hut, and the cinema at Star City, and all only because we were in the area anyway for a match.
So I bet they do get extra business from fans parking there.
Sounds like quite a night out that.
Best wake ever.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 28, 2023, 02:45:44 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/ysHTHVs/live.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysHTHVs)
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 28, 2023, 02:52:05 PM
Seen this on Twitter. Looks like Villa Live is off the table for now.
(https://i.ibb.co/ysHTHVs/live.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysHTHVs)
I got the impression it was never high on the list of priorities.
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 28, 2023, 03:38:42 PM
Seen this on Twitter. Looks like Villa Live is off the table for now.
(https://i.ibb.co/ysHTHVs/live.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysHTHVs)
At least it looks like the new stand will be going ahead as planned from this - nothing in that letter suggests a delay in building that.
Some other points in there are interesting. Creating a new sports bar in the North Stand, maybe Heck has seen that the Terrace View in the Holte has gone down like a bucket of cold sick and will be moving that facility to the sports bar in the new North Stand ASAP and leave the Terrace View to become a Holte Suite for the upper tier? Also, redeveloping the Stumps building - is there any chance of giving The Holte pub a makeover as well and actually utilising the space in there a bit better. If the intention for Villa Live is to build facilities that encourage people to hang around before and after the game then maybe it's a good idea to improve the facilities we already have first to test the water.
Post by: jwarry on June 28, 2023, 04:16:34 PM
Post by: frank black on June 28, 2023, 04:17:59 PM
Post by: London Villan on June 28, 2023, 04:21:12 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on June 28, 2023, 04:23:26 PM
All the talk about an exciting new future and we get a badge for one season whilst using the same shield 99% can't stand where it matters on TV, socials etc
Then it looks like the stadium plans are being tampered with
Starting to miss purslow already
Post by: LeeB on June 28, 2023, 04:25:51 PM
What a mess.
All the talk about an exciting new future and we get a badge for one season whilst using the same shield 99% can't stand where it matters on TV, socials etc
Then it looks like the stadium plans are being tampered with
Starting to miss purslow already
What you do in your spare time is up to you, but that's a niche look you're going for and watch out for J.K. Rowling and Graham Linehan
Post by: London Villan on June 28, 2023, 04:30:31 PM
Post by: VillaBoy_23 on June 28, 2023, 04:31:14 PM
What a mess.
All the talk about an exciting new future and we get a badge for one season whilst using the same shield 99% can't stand where it matters on TV, socials etc
Then it looks like the stadium plans are being tampered with
Starting to miss purslow already
What a complete and utter insufferable bore you are.
Post by: The Edge on June 28, 2023, 04:33:31 PM
I'm starting to get concerned about all this. Why has everything got to happen at such a snails pace when it comes to redevelopment work at Villa Park? Even Wolves have built 2 new stands at the same end in the time we've had the North Stand. And has anyone been in stumps lately? It has an asbestos roof and stinks like hell. It needs flattening not wasting money on it. It all starting to seem very half arsed.Seen this on Twitter. Looks like Villa Live is off the table for now.
(https://i.ibb.co/ysHTHVs/live.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysHTHVs)
I got the impression it was never high on the list of priorities.
Post by: Billy Walker on June 28, 2023, 04:50:02 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on June 28, 2023, 05:33:11 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on June 28, 2023, 05:52:58 PM
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2023, 06:57:02 PM
Post by: Goldenballs on June 28, 2023, 07:09:45 PM
What a mess.
All the talk about an exciting new future and we get a badge for one season whilst using the same shield 99% can't stand where it matters on TV, socials etc
Then it looks like the stadium plans are being tampered with
Starting to miss purslow already
What a complete and utter insufferable bore you are.
What's boring about that, I agree that it does seem a bit of a mess at the moment.
Just let the fans know what the craic is, if Heck has come in and wants to pause some stuff while he has a look at it, just let the fans know. The shite about the badge being for one season was a load of bollocks.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 28, 2023, 07:15:29 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2023, 07:29:23 PM
(https://media.tenor.com/ZHYmI4BTTWIAAAAC/nuclear-explosion.gif)
Post by: Steve67 on June 28, 2023, 07:30:34 PM
Maybe Gerrard wasn't the only vanity project to get binned.
This, in spades.
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2023, 07:37:59 PM
Post by: VillaBoy_23 on June 28, 2023, 07:45:37 PM
What a mess.
All the talk about an exciting new future and we get a badge for one season whilst using the same shield 99% can't stand where it matters on TV, socials etc
Then it looks like the stadium plans are being tampered with
Starting to miss purslow already
What a complete and utter insufferable bore you are.
What's boring about that, I agree that it does seem a bit of a mess at the moment.
Just let the fans know what the craic is, if Heck has come in and wants to pause some stuff while he has a look at it, just let the fans know. The shite about the badge being for one season was a load of bollocks.
He just spouts constant hyperbole and acts as if it represents the whole fan base.
Post by: Toronto Villa on June 28, 2023, 07:46:21 PM
In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
Maybe within the new North there was a massive Christian Purslow suite being planned and a statue? But yeh, we need a bigger ground and I can’t imagine the entire club wasn’t aligned on the basics.
Philadelphia for anyone who’s been was one of the first cities to create multi sports complexes. So all three major sport team stadiums in one area with all facilities and entertainment in close proximity. It’s possible that Heck wants to review that in terms of total fan experience.
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2023, 07:48:03 PM
In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
Maybe within the new North there was a massive Christian Purslow suite being planned and a statue? But yeh, we need a bigger ground and I can’t imagine the entire club wasn’t aligned on the basics.
Philadelphia for anyone who’s been was one of the first cities to create multi sports complexes. So all three major sport team stadiums in one area with all facilities and entertainment in close proximity. It’s possible that Heck wants to review that in terms of total fan experience.
But that's not what's being done here, the Villa Live thing is just being downgraded to a facelift of the existing building, which sounds a bit shit, to be honest.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2023, 07:51:27 PM
In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
Maybe within the new North there was a massive Christian Purslow suite being planned and a statue? But yeh, we need a bigger ground and I can’t imagine the entire club wasn’t aligned on the basics.
It was all to be paid for via a massive naming rights deal with CP Company and has to be scaled back now that Switzerland aren't interested either.
Post by: algy on June 28, 2023, 07:52:27 PM
Maybe Villa Live is the Purslow vanity thing?In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
Maybe within the new North there was a massive Christian Purslow suite being planned and a statue? But yeh, we need a bigger ground and I can’t imagine the entire club wasn’t aligned on the basics.
Philadelphia for anyone who’s been was one of the first cities to create multi sports complexes. So all three major sport team stadiums in one area with all facilities and entertainment in close proximity. It’s possible that Heck wants to review that in terms of total fan experience.
But that's not what's being done here, the Villa Live thing is just being downgraded to a facelift of the existing building, which sounds a bit shit, to be honest.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 28, 2023, 08:12:38 PM
In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
The idea that Villa Live would be a seven days a week venue.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2023, 08:56:42 PM
In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
The idea that Villa Live would be a seven days a week venue.
Better facilities for match days alone would be nice though.
I appreciate things change when the people at the top change but it’s a bit deflating.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 28, 2023, 09:00:28 PM
In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
The idea that Villa Live would be a seven days a week venue.
Better facilities for match days alone would be nice though.
I appreciate things change when the people at the top change but it’s a bit deflating.
Would there be the market for matchday? It's a big project for twenty half-days a year.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 28, 2023, 09:13:39 PM
Post by: Risso on June 28, 2023, 09:17:10 PM
Would there be the market for matchday? It's a big project for twenty half-days a year.
Add in European games, plus concerts like Springsteen, Pink and Foo Fighters etc. There's also the point that bars at football grounds have the sort of captive audience and footfall that most normal pubs could only dream about, so one Saturday could see more takings than a lot of pubs do all week. It's a different thing, but it illustrates what I'm talking about: my mate owns a pub on the IOM, and they take more in the TT fortnight than they do during the rest of the year put together.
Post by: FatSam on June 28, 2023, 09:20:10 PM
Post by: Beard82 on June 28, 2023, 09:27:22 PM
100% providing your setup for it, and not some work-experience person learning to pour a pint on the job. I remember working in a pub in Leicester when they did the Radio 1 big weekend - they could have sold out 10 x over that weekend.
Would there be the market for matchday? It's a big project for twenty half-days a year.
Add in European games, plus concerts like Springsteen, Pink and Foo Fighters etc. There's also the point that bars at football grounds have the sort of captive audience and footfall that most normal pubs could only dream about, so one Saturday could see more takings than a lot of pubs do all week. It's a different thing, but it illustrates what I'm talking about: my mate owns a pub on the IOM, and they take more in the TT fortnight than they do during the rest of the year put together.
Also my understanding was this "box-park" could be used for smaller events etc.
Post by: FatSam on June 28, 2023, 09:29:01 PM
Apparently Ellmanton are one of the main bidders as well.Please God no.
Post by: Beard82 on June 28, 2023, 09:31:58 PM
Every tap had a member of staff next to it. Watching a member of the public pouring their own pint, then fixing it when they fucked it up.
Pretty certain that's the definition of insanity. Having trained bar staff watch members of the public serve themselves on a 1-1 basis. Purlsow would be proud
It goes without saying I poured my pint perfectly
Post by: The Edge on June 28, 2023, 09:36:45 PM
You'd of thought they would of done their homework on the Villa Live project before releasing official renders of the work. It must be viable surely? After all the excitement they created it will seem like a big let down if they just revamp a crappy old factory building that is Stumps. Once they commit to that it will be there for decades. Dare I say it smacks of Deadly Doug type antics?In what was were any of the plans a vanity project? We need a bigger capacity and better facilities and the plans seemed to deliver that.
The idea that Villa Live would be a seven days a week venue.
Better facilities for match days alone would be nice though.
I appreciate things change when the people at the top change but it’s a bit deflating.
Would there be the market for matchday? It's a big project for twenty half-days a year.
Post by: Des Little on June 28, 2023, 09:43:38 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on June 28, 2023, 09:52:36 PM
I wonder if there is a bigger conversation going on? If we can't improve the transport links (look at the farce around the University station and Camp Hill stations) it sort of limits the size of the ground on the current site.
Yes, I also wonder if it is within the realms of possibility that that kind of conversation is going on and whether things like commercial opportunities might be better in a different location like the city centre.
Post by: Flin5tone on June 28, 2023, 10:00:44 PM
At this rate I can see us sticking with the dreaded shield and jet washing the north.
Just when you think we're moving in the right direction we do this. Livid
Post by: Gareth on June 28, 2023, 10:02:12 PM
In terms of facilities, I was amazed at Edgbaston they had this "self-serve" beer pouring.
Every tap had a member of staff next to it. Watching a member of the public pouring their own pint, then fixing it when they fucked it up.
Pretty certain that's the definition of insanity. Having trained bar staff watch members of the public serve themselves on a 1-1 basis. Purlsow would be proud
It goes without saying I poured my pint perfectly
Insanity is having hopeless staff pouring plastic bottles of beer into plastic glasses with no clue how to pour it properly as I watched in the Witton Upper more than once last season :-)
8000 extras on the roads and rail at full time….gonna improves the match day experience immensely
Post by: Axl Rose on June 28, 2023, 10:08:09 PM
We were sold a dream of a badge the fan base could get behind and bit stadium improvement.
At this rate I can see us sticking with the dreaded shield and jet washing the north.
Just when you think we're moving in the right direction we do this. Livid
:D
Post by: Villan For Life on June 28, 2023, 10:14:09 PM
In terms of facilities, I was amazed at Edgbaston they had this "self-serve" beer pouring.
Every tap had a member of staff next to it. Watching a member of the public pouring their own pint, then fixing it when they fucked it up.
Pretty certain that's the definition of insanity. Having trained bar staff watch members of the public serve themselves on a 1-1 basis. Purlsow would be proud
It goes without saying I poured my pint perfectly
Edgbaston gets much smaller crowds and has more bars, on major match days there are more temporary bars which are away from the stands which would not work at Villa Park.
I still queued 40 minutes at the test match because click and collect drink ordering wasn’t working.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 28, 2023, 10:19:49 PM
All seems a bit half arsed and watered down.
It does indeed, and after the half-hearted new badge and shirt release it is as Flin5tone says, a bit of a mess.
Still, I'll reserve judgement until I see the details and renderings of the updated plans.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2023, 10:28:09 PM
That’s probably harsh but I feel the messaging could do with a bit of improvement.
Feels like end of the season the momentum was massively positive but - in time honoured fashion for us - since then it has been deflation.
No new stand till transport fixed. No Villa Live, let’s paint what’s there. Fuck the badge we got you to vote for.
I know that sounds miserablist but we’ve been here several times before.
Let’s have some good stuff.
I could be even more paranoid and raise how this has all emerged post season ticket renewal deadline.
Post by: PeterWithe on June 28, 2023, 10:36:31 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 28, 2023, 10:39:41 PM
I’m not at all confident that, if they tart up Stumps, that the VillaLive thing will ever happen in my lifetime.
I think you're right.
TBH it's not really the existence or not of Villa Live that bothers me - I would almost certainly never use it anyway - it just feels like we've had decades of scaling back of ambition and cheapness, and it doesn't take much to start feeling that way again.
Post by: tomd2103 on June 28, 2023, 11:37:41 PM
I’m not at all confident that, if they tart up Stumps, that the VillaLive thing will ever happen in my lifetime.
I think you're right.
TBH it's not really the existence or not of Villa Live that bothers me - I would almost certainly never use it anyway - it just feels like we've had decades of scaling back of ambition and cheapness, and it doesn't take much to start feeling that way again.
We have had a major upheaval in senior positions at the club this summer. The new people have only been at the club a month or so and it is understandable that they may want to put some major projects on hold while they assess them. I want to see a long term strategy and am OK if the new people want to take some time to understand the full picture.
The only one where the clock is seemingly ticking is the North Stand redevelopment if the UK and Ireland get the Euro 2028 tournament. Even then, that is tied in with the Council redeveloping the train station.
I must admit that North Stand redevelopment aside, I'm much more concerned about what we are doing on the pitch over the next few years than things like Villa Live.
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 28, 2023, 11:47:10 PM
In terms of facilities, I was amazed at Edgbaston they had this "self-serve" beer pouring.
Every tap had a member of staff next to it. Watching a member of the public pouring their own pint, then fixing it when they fucked it up.
Pretty certain that's the definition of insanity. Having trained bar staff watch members of the public serve themselves on a 1-1 basis. Purlsow would be proud
It goes without saying I poured my pint perfectly
Is it a licensing requirement?
Post by: Risso on June 29, 2023, 12:18:44 AM
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2023, 01:08:43 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 29, 2023, 09:16:37 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 29, 2023, 09:19:27 AM
They can learn from Edgbaston on major match days albeit with a much smaller crowd and the cThe difference with Edgbaston is they're serving all day, not for 1 hr before a game and 15 mins at half time, so it's easier to justify the extra spend and staff.In terms of facilities, I was amazed at Edgbaston they had this "self-serve" beer pouring.
Every tap had a member of staff next to it. Watching a member of the public pouring their own pint, then fixing it when they fucked it up.
Pretty certain that's the definition of insanity. Having trained bar staff watch members of the public serve themselves on a 1-1 basis. Purlsow would be proud
It goes without saying I poured my pint perfectly
Edgbaston gets much smaller crowds and has more bars, on major match days there are more temporary bars which are away from the stands which would not work at Villa Park.
I still queued 40 minutes at the test match because click and collect drink ordering wasn’t working.
Post by: Risso on June 29, 2023, 09:19:44 AM
I found myself wondering this morning whether they’re thinking about moving.
Hopefully. *ducks for cover*
Post by: London Villan on June 29, 2023, 09:30:25 AM
Post by: LeeB on June 29, 2023, 09:31:58 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on June 29, 2023, 09:34:07 AM
Maybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.
It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
Post by: LeeB on June 29, 2023, 09:38:44 AM
Maybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.
It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
Exactly, we could sit on our hands doing nothing and point at the transport issue holding everything up, or we can focus on making the most of what we've already got, and watching that presentation video he did at the '76 ers the other day that strikes me as exactly the way he'd approach things
Post by: FatSam on June 29, 2023, 09:42:22 AM
From a standing start, a new stadium would be the best part of 10 years away. There is clearly demand now for 8-10k additional seats, and hosting Euro ‘28 probably relies upon having an increased capacity. There is jeopardy associated with all of that; delays in developing a new ground, build cost fluctuations, we won’t know about Euro ‘28 until September etc. I could see a scenario where we build a budget version of the new Witton End, intended to tide us over until a new ground was ready. It clearly wouldn’t justify the level of expense that is currently being planned though, and would probably have to be written off as as an investment in nurturing larger crowds. I suppose it would all come down to what the cost differential would be.
Post by: London Villan on June 29, 2023, 09:48:24 AM
Smithfield could have been an option (better transport, local facilities, etc) - and might still be as nothing has been built yet.
But without demolishing half of Aston there isn't an obvious local site that has better transport links, which is ultimately the problem.
Post by: tomd2103 on June 29, 2023, 09:51:04 AM
I found myself wondering this morning whether they’re thinking about moving.
Wouldn't be surprised if it is something that is being looked at. If the aim is to significantly increase the commercial side of things, then a new ground in the city centre would presumably help with that.
Post by: Risso on June 29, 2023, 09:54:02 AM
Maybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.
It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
Exactly, we could sit on our hands doing nothing and point at the transport issue holding everything up, or we can focus on making the most of what we've already got, and watching that presentation video he did at the '76 ers the other day that strikes me as exactly the way he'd approach things
That all just strikes me as short term thinking mate. We can and should improve things like the catering that's in the stands already, but we need a bigger ground, with much better facilities. As much as everybody loves the place, the facilities are mostly atrocious. Just tarting up Stumps isn't really going to achieve much.
Post by: LeeB on June 29, 2023, 09:58:24 AM
Maybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.
It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
Exactly, we could sit on our hands doing nothing and point at the transport issue holding everything up, or we can focus on making the most of what we've already got, and watching that presentation video he did at the '76 ers the other day that strikes me as exactly the way he'd approach things
That all just strikes me as short term thinking mate. We can and should improve things like the catering that's in the stands already, but we need a bigger ground, with much better facilities. As much as everybody loves the place, the facilities are mostly atrocious. Just tarting up Stumps isn't really going to achieve much.
It would make a massive bloody difference to my matchday experience straight off if they shifted the fanzone bit that currently bottlenecks the corner of Trinity Rd/ North Stand to Stumps, and most of the best drinking/eating venues around the city these days are converted former factories or warehouses, it shouldn't be hard or costly to do so effectively.
It doesn't mean chucking future proposals in the bin, just improve what we have now and let the resonse to that shape how we go in future
Post by: tomd2103 on June 29, 2023, 10:00:44 AM
I don’t think we will move, but just to hypothesise:
From a standing start, a new stadium would be the best part of 10 years away. There is clearly demand now for 8-10k additional seats, and hosting Euro ‘28 probably relies upon having an increased capacity. There is jeopardy associated with all of that; delays in developing a new ground, build cost fluctuations, we won’t know about Euro ‘28 until September etc. I could see a scenario where we build a budget version of the new Witton End, intended to tide us over until a new ground was ready. It clearly wouldn’t justify the level of expense that is currently being planned though, and would probably have to be written off as as an investment in nurturing larger crowds. I suppose it would all come down to what the cost differential would be.
I'll readily admit that I don't know too much about how it would all work, but that seems like a reasonable hypothesis. Upgrade the North Stand along with existing facilities so we can hold Euro 28 games and build a bigger crowd at games. Then work on building a bigger new stadium somewhere that could really maximise the commercial side of things.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 29, 2023, 10:04:01 AM
I found myself wondering this morning whether they’re thinking about moving.
Hopefully. *ducks for cover*
Next, there'll be people suggesting we build a mega-stadium at the Wheels site and groundshare with SHA. *shudders*
Post by: Border villan on June 29, 2023, 10:05:50 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on June 29, 2023, 10:24:05 AM
The problem with a new ground is the location.It would almost be worth it just to piss off the Blues fans. Shelby Street runs right through it - imagine how gutted they would be about that?
Smithfield could have been an option (better transport, local facilities, etc) - and might still be as nothing has been built yet.
But without demolishing half of Aston there isn't an obvious local site that has better transport links, which is ultimately the problem.
But realistically, that is a major regeneration site and I can't see the Coincil ever letting it go to a football club.
I'm not sure why people are convincing themselves the North stand is off. Cancelling / delaying Villa Live shouldn't have any impact on the redev programme. Tbh, I never felt it would have any use outside of match days, I just can't see a venue like that managing to attract people to this part of the City.
Post by: Mister E on June 29, 2023, 10:31:22 AM
Several people have mentioned the transport issue, by which I assume this relates to the lack of traction with Network Rail and Witton station. Since it takes NWR eons to get things done (I worked there both as consultant and employee; it's an organisation paralysed by its own introversion and lack of imagination), could the club not work with the public bus companies or private coach companies to improve other forms of transport, at least till the Witton station does finally get improved?Exactly, we could sit on our hands doing nothing and point at the transport issue holding everything up, or we can focus on making the most of what we've already got, and watching that presentation video he did at the '76 ers the other day that strikes me as exactly the way he'd approach thingsMaybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
I don't travel from the city centre to games so am not really clued in to how it works, but I hear the complaints here about how bad the current arrangements are. Based on the recent experiences of people coming to VP for Pink and Bruce, I'd say it's very much in the club's interest to get this sorted.
Post by: LeeB on June 29, 2023, 10:34:00 AM
Several people have mentioned the transport issue, by which I assume this relates to the lack of traction with Network Rail and Witton station. Since it takes NWR eons to get things done (I worked there both as consultant and employee; it's an organisation paralysed by its own introversion and lack of imagination), could the club not work with the public bus companies or private coach companies to improve other forms of transport, at least till the Witton station does finally get improved?Exactly, we could sit on our hands doing nothing and point at the transport issue holding everything up, or we can focus on making the most of what we've already got, and watching that presentation video he did at the '76 ers the other day that strikes me as exactly the way he'd approach thingsMaybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
I don't travel from the city centre to games so am not really clued in to how it works, but I hear the complaints here about how bad the current arrangements are. Based on the recent experiences of people coming to VP for Pink and Bruce, I'd say it's very much in the club's interest to get this sorted.
I agree, that is the kind of thing we can practically do something about, and we should. That's the kind of approach I expect us to take and I'll judge the new guy based on things like that.
Post by: ChicagoLion on June 29, 2023, 11:38:55 AM
And we could have done something about the catering and we haven't, so I am not holding my breath.Several people have mentioned the transport issue, by which I assume this relates to the lack of traction with Network Rail and Witton station. Since it takes NWR eons to get things done (I worked there both as consultant and employee; it's an organisation paralysed by its own introversion and lack of imagination), could the club not work with the public bus companies or private coach companies to improve other forms of transport, at least till the Witton station does finally get improved?Exactly, we could sit on our hands doing nothing and point at the transport issue holding everything up, or we can focus on making the most of what we've already got, and watching that presentation video he did at the '76 ers the other day that strikes me as exactly the way he'd approach thingsMaybe he's just looked from the angle of what we can do right now with what we already to improve the match day experience and then take it from there, which seems logical to me.It struck me too that this was because of the transport situation being up in the air and wanting to do something concrete next season regardless.
I don't travel from the city centre to games so am not really clued in to how it works, but I hear the complaints here about how bad the current arrangements are. Based on the recent experiences of people coming to VP for Pink and Bruce, I'd say it's very much in the club's interest to get this sorted.
I agree, that is the kind of thing we can practically do something about, and we should. That's the kind of approach I expect us to take and I'll judge the new guy based on things like that.
Post by: algy on June 29, 2023, 11:49:59 AM
Yep, occurred to me that it's maybe putting the cart before the horse. If Villa Park was in relatively heavy use 4-5 days a week throughout the year then there'd be a strong case for it. At the moment we're maybe on 2 days a week for 10 months a year (being very optimistic).The problem with a new ground is the location.It would almost be worth it just to piss off the Blues fans. Shelby Street runs right through it - imagine how gutted they would be about that?
Smithfield could have been an option (better transport, local facilities, etc) - and might still be as nothing has been built yet.
But without demolishing half of Aston there isn't an obvious local site that has better transport links, which is ultimately the problem.
But realistically, that is a major regeneration site and I can't see the Coincil ever letting it go to a football club.
I'm not sure why people are convincing themselves the North stand is off. Cancelling / delaying Villa Live shouldn't have any impact on the redev programme. Tbh, I never felt it would have any use outside of match days, I just can't see a venue like that managing to attract people to this part of the City.
Post by: Hookeysmith on June 29, 2023, 01:11:29 PM
Without getting into histrionics, after being pumped with ideas of the future, it does smell a bit of Dougonomics.
That’s probably harsh but I feel the messaging could do with a bit of improvement.
Feels like end of the season the momentum was massively positive but - in time honoured fashion for us - since then it has been deflation.
No new stand till transport fixed. No Villa Live, let’s paint what’s there. Fuck the badge we got you to vote for.
I know that sounds miserablist but we’ve been here several times before.
Let’s have some good stuff.
I could be even more paranoid and raise how this has all emerged post season ticket renewal deadline.
And after claims of "going big" on supporting Emery in the market all we have at present is a free agent from a relegated side ;)
If we are waiting to strike once Monchi has his feet under the table then i fear we may miss the boat
Post by: Flin5tone on June 30, 2023, 11:31:44 AM
I'm looking for a (ideally framed) large picture of the tram outside villa park scene. (I think we used it on a programme years ago against spurs) and it's often floating around but can't seem to find one to purchase. Any ideas
Post by: Brend'Watkins on June 30, 2023, 11:41:38 AM
Slightly off topic but did not want to start a new subject as it might upset the haters.
I'm looking for a (ideally framed) large picture of the tram outside villa park scene. (I think we used it on a programme years ago against spurs) and it's often floating around but can't seem to find one to purchase. Any ideas
Have a look on Pintrest. I get sent loads of vintage photos of former Villa players and Villa Park throughout the ages. I'm sure you'll find something on there.
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 30, 2023, 12:01:39 PM
Yep, occurred to me that it's maybe putting the cart before the horse. If Villa Park was in relatively heavy use 4-5 days a week throughout the year then there'd be a strong case for it. At the moment we're maybe on 2 days a week for 10 months a year (being very optimistic).The problem with a new ground is the location.It would almost be worth it just to piss off the Blues fans. Shelby Street runs right through it - imagine how gutted they would be about that?
Smithfield could have been an option (better transport, local facilities, etc) - and might still be as nothing has been built yet.
But without demolishing half of Aston there isn't an obvious local site that has better transport links, which is ultimately the problem.
But realistically, that is a major regeneration site and I can't see the Coincil ever letting it go to a football club.
I'm not sure why people are convincing themselves the North stand is off. Cancelling / delaying Villa Live shouldn't have any impact on the redev programme. Tbh, I never felt it would have any use outside of match days, I just can't see a venue like that managing to attract people to this part of the City.
Indeed. I meant to reply to Risso's comment about how the TTs keep his mate's pub going for the rest of the year. The difference is that he keeps open, presumably he has tickover trade for the other fifty weeks and can bring in extra staff & supplies for the boom time - much like the remaining pubs around Villa Park on matchday. Live would be a completely different concept where it would be a huge operation to bring in casual staff, it might be completely unused for weeks on end and as has been said many times, not only is Aston not pleasant to visit at night but Birmingham is a bugger of a place to keep a mid-sized venue going.
Post by: olaftab on June 30, 2023, 12:11:52 PM
Move to Perry park and build a new stadium next to the Alex. Great site for access and transport etc.I found myself wondering this morning whether they’re thinking about moving.
Hopefully. *ducks for cover*
Post by: Rico on June 30, 2023, 12:15:03 PM
Post by: Ads on June 30, 2023, 12:17:54 PM
Post by: Rico on June 30, 2023, 12:23:32 PM
Moving into the city centre would be the only choice. It would be expensive as you'd have to flatten somewhere though.
Good shout, but would definitely need to be in the centre and not in the periphery like the Sty. Very expensive though!
Post by: London Villan on June 30, 2023, 12:25:45 PM
A massive call to move the club though, as well as very expensive.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 30, 2023, 12:28:14 PM
I'm sure the residents would love that. The only way you'd have a chance would be to rebuild the Alex including a running track and I'm sure non of us would want that.Move to Perry park and build a new stadium next to the Alex. Great site for access and transport etc.I found myself wondering this morning whether they’re thinking about moving.
Hopefully. *ducks for cover*
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 30, 2023, 12:38:34 PM
Has to be in walking distance of the city centre. That's why Smithfield would be perfect (if a little tight for space). It would not only be great for us, but it would give the city a massive boost and brilliant facility.
A massive call to move the club though, as well as very expensive.
Smithfield is always brought up in these scenarios, but it would be the worst of all worlds for the club and the city. The site would be horrendously expensive to start with, and would effectively stop development of any other facilities in an area the city centre needs to expand. A stadium here would basically be a brick wall between the city centre and it's expansion eastwards through Digbeth and around HS2. Far from giving the city a boost it would strangle it in much the same way the ring road used to and for a facility that even in the best case scenario is only going to be fully utilised about 30 times a year.
If we did move it would have to be a site on the fringe of the city centre that isn't already earmarked for development and there just aren't that many of those around that would have any better transport links than where we are now.
Post by: FatSam on June 30, 2023, 12:46:00 PM
Post by: Risso on June 30, 2023, 12:47:54 PM
Has to be in walking distance of the city centre. That's why Smithfield would be perfect (if a little tight for space). It would not only be great for us, but it would give the city a massive boost and brilliant facility.
A massive call to move the club though, as well as very expensive.
Smithfield is always brought up in these scenarios, but it would be the worst of all worlds for the club and the city. The site would be horrendously expensive to start with, and would effectively stop development of any other facilities in an area the city centre needs to expand. A stadium here would basically be a brick wall between the city centre and it's expansion eastwards through Digbeth and around HS2. Far from giving the city a boost it would strangle it in much the same way the ring road used to and for a facility that even in the best case scenario is only going to be fully utilised about 30 times a year.
If we did move it would have to be a site on the fringe of the city centre that isn't already earmarked for development and there just aren't that many of those around that would have any better transport links than where we are now.
There's not much on the other side that you'd necessarily want to get to though is there.? I think it would be great for the city centre, a million people a year spending money in shops, pubs and restaurants who mostly won't be now. You only have to go to Newcastle to see how great having a club a few minutes walk from the city centre can be, and the transport problems would be solved at a stroke.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 30, 2023, 12:50:24 PM
The idea is to grow the city centre out in the direction of Digbeth, given HS2 plus the BBC relocating, and there's already a fair amount of residential down there. They wouldn't want to put a stadium there (although being that close to the city centre would be brilliant).
Post by: PeterWithe on June 30, 2023, 01:00:40 PM
Post by: Drummond on June 30, 2023, 01:20:24 PM
Post by: Bad English on June 30, 2023, 01:21:04 PM
What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?Great post!
Post by: Dogtanian on June 30, 2023, 01:21:29 PM
What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?
They could probably get a discount on redirecting their mail too.
Post by: Risso on June 30, 2023, 01:23:09 PM
What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?Great post!
Delivered with aplomb!
Post by: astonvilla82 on June 30, 2023, 01:24:24 PM
can't see that happening, think it would be stamped onWhat about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?Great post!
Post by: Drummond on June 30, 2023, 01:47:23 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 30, 2023, 01:50:50 PM
Post by: algy on June 30, 2023, 02:16:31 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 30, 2023, 02:19:41 PM
What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?
Would it be a big enough plot ?
Post by: paul_e on June 30, 2023, 02:21:44 PM
For comparison the current site is about 120m at the back of the Holte and 160m at the back of the North, that why we have to be creative with what we do there.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on June 30, 2023, 02:32:10 PM
Heck has only just arrived and already we have “move the franchise “.
Yes there isn't enough of a Premier League presence in Cornwall.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 30, 2023, 02:32:16 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 30, 2023, 02:35:32 PM
Heck has only just arrived and already we have “move the franchise “.
Yes there isn't enough of a Premier League presence in Cornwall.
Given their county flag, Newcastle might be a better fit.
Post by: paul_e on June 30, 2023, 02:41:27 PM
I am not too sure how much better access would be at the gas towers site, anyway. It's closer to the city centre, yes, but is that alone enough to make the difference?
it's within walkign distance of the city centre (well would be with a few minor improvements) and therefore pretty close to HS2. Could also be easily connected to the expressway for cars and buses. Without the massive expense of taking somewhere like Martineau galleries I don't think there'd be many better options. More importantly if you were starting from scratch and wanting to build a world class stadium that's a site that would work, the current ground isn't.
Post by: Monty on June 30, 2023, 02:45:43 PM
Post by: paul_e on June 30, 2023, 02:57:30 PM
Building a new stadium from scratch without local government help is a proven albatross and wouldn't come close to being worth it IMO.
Which is why I suspect it's not a realistic option. Even improving our stadium is proving difficult because of local government problems.
Post by: chrisw1 on June 30, 2023, 03:32:19 PM
If we really want to squeeze the capacity we should just bite the bullet and build a horse shoe, filling in the North corners, but we're beyond that now I think.
Post by: olaftab on June 30, 2023, 03:38:52 PM
Moving to Shirley would be handy for meShirley not?
Post by: olaftab on June 30, 2023, 03:40:02 PM
I am afraid I can't give that my stamp of approval.What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?Great post!
Delivered with aplomb!
Post by: Drummond on June 30, 2023, 04:06:45 PM
What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?
Would it be a big enough plot ?
I think it could be, doing a quick measurement using my fingers...
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 30, 2023, 04:46:40 PM
Post by: eamonn on June 30, 2023, 05:10:13 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on June 30, 2023, 05:14:04 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 30, 2023, 05:29:44 PM
I'm led to believe that the Conference and Exhibition venue at the Ricoh does well so I'd guess so being so near to the motorway and train network?
I’m reading on skyscrapercity that the conference facilities at Villa Park are busy in the week.
Post by: London Villan on June 30, 2023, 06:02:55 PM
Post by: FatSam on June 30, 2023, 06:39:11 PM
Having used the measurement tool on GoogleMaps, the footprint of Villa Park with the new Witton End would not fit on that site in either orientation.What about offering the Royal Mail an incentive to swap from their distribution centre on the A34?
Would it be a big enough plot ?
I think it could be, doing a quick measurement using my fingers...
Post by: FatSam on June 30, 2023, 07:00:09 PM
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on June 30, 2023, 07:03:31 PM
Only about 10 minute drive from my Granny's old house.
Would be nice to have our own stadium again and be back in Glasgow, after a nomadic existence over the last 25 years or so.
Post by: tomd2103 on July 01, 2023, 01:23:45 AM
Not generally a fan of moving away from Villa Park. However - like others - if we were to move away from Aston then really the only option should be closer to the city centre. Going further out is only going to compound the existing transport issues, for a start.
The idea doesn't really delight me either, but if it was somewhat of a necessity to move the club to the next level and it was a spectacular design then it would just about be palatable.
Post by: Rory on July 01, 2023, 02:04:42 AM
Right next to Perry Barr station, on several bus routes into town, on the outer circle, could accommodate a tram link along the A34, lots of empty Commonwealth Games bollocks nearby that could be turned into hotels, road links across town and to the M6, plus, crucially, it's nearer to my house.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 01, 2023, 05:39:57 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 01, 2023, 07:27:09 AM
If we did have to move, can we not knock down One Stop? Plenty of room there and it's shit anyway.
Right next to Perry Barr station, on several bus routes into town, on the outer circle, could accommodate a tram link along the A34, lots of empty Commonwealth Games bollocks nearby that could be turned into hotels, road links across town and to the M6, plus, crucially, it's nearer to my house.
Best shout yet. Can I park on your drive, Rory?
Post by: PeterWithe on July 01, 2023, 07:29:21 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 01, 2023, 11:42:41 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 01, 2023, 11:55:10 AM
Post by: London Villan on July 01, 2023, 11:58:50 AM
Post by: trinityoap on July 01, 2023, 12:16:13 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 01, 2023, 12:44:57 PM
Looking at where the 76s play, it's an out of town arena, next to the NFL stadium and the MLB ballpark. As an anchor venue, the NEC is probably the only similar, feasible size location - but geographically it's all wrong.
And as I've said before, there's no land left there.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on July 01, 2023, 12:47:15 PM
Any talk of moving from our current home should face an insta-ban imo. 😉👍🏼
EDIT - We've put up with traffic congestion around matchdays for years - It's the price you pay for watching football in the best stadium in the world.
(*But yes, we do need BCC to get off their arses and improve the infrastructure getting to/from the ground).
Post by: tomd2103 on July 01, 2023, 01:07:31 PM
Looking at where the 76s play, it's an out of town arena, next to the NFL stadium and the MLB ballpark. As an anchor venue, the NEC is probably the only similar, feasible size location - but geographically it's all wrong.
Wouldn’t be in favour of a move to the NEC site at all. Too far out and I think we would lose our identity somewhat.
A city centre site and the possibilities that might bring would probably be the only real option I think would be palatable.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 01, 2023, 01:26:45 PM
Looking at where the 76s play, it's an out of town arena, next to the NFL stadium and the MLB ballpark. As an anchor venue, the NEC is probably the only similar, feasible size location - but geographically it's all wrong.
Wouldn’t be in favour of a move to the NEC site at all. Too far out and I think we would lose our identity somewhat.
A city centre site and the possibilities that might bring would probably be the only real option I think would be palatable.
Palatable? You’d move just to be nearer B1? As a 2nd city with a population of over 1 million where we’re located in B6 is about as close as we can get or could expect to get. Why would the club even consider moving if it has already invested in academy facilities?
Post by: London Villan on July 01, 2023, 02:38:32 PM
Looking at where the 76s play, it's an out of town arena, next to the NFL stadium and the MLB ballpark. As an anchor venue, the NEC is probably the only similar, feasible size location - but geographically it's all wrong.
And as I've said before, there's no land left there.
There are thousands of acres of surface car parks that can be used, as has been done in the plans for Arden Cross - freeing up massive development plots. Car parks are then replaced with multi-storey structures.
However, the NEC would be wrong as a location for so many reasons, emotionally and practically.
All of this would be solved if BCC, the railways and Villa could sort the solutions at Witton and Aston stations and sort the general traffic chaos around the ground.
But it wouldn't surprise me if there is some feasibility work going around new locations for a new ground.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 01, 2023, 02:43:32 PM
Not that I’d be at all interested in moving full stop let alone to over there.
Post by: LeeB on July 01, 2023, 02:56:06 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 01, 2023, 02:58:47 PM
Fella who does property development was telling me recently that wherever service roads have gone in for HS2, it will be very easy to get planning permission around them even on greenbelt land, don’t know if there is anything in that but if so, a lot of land around the NEC where the spur is would become available.
Not that I’d be at all interested in moving full stop let alone to over there.
There's a bit of a difference in getting permission for roads and for a stadium. For a start, there might be a problem in having a sixty thousand capacity ground on the flight path to an airport.
Post by: Steve67 on July 01, 2023, 03:00:33 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 01, 2023, 03:03:04 PM
West Ham sold their soul when they moved to the Olympic stadium. Aston Villa should stay where they are.
Agree 110%, it would be the beginning of the end for me.
Post by: Paul.S on July 01, 2023, 03:13:15 PM
West Ham sold their soul when they moved to the Olympic stadium. Aston Villa should stay where they are.
100%. No lifeless new stadium for me.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 01, 2023, 03:24:56 PM
Fella who does property development was telling me recently that wherever service roads have gone in for HS2, it will be very easy to get planning permission around them even on greenbelt land, don’t know if there is anything in that but if so, a lot of land around the NEC where the spur is would become available.
Not that I’d be at all interested in moving full stop let alone to over there.
There's a bit of a difference in getting permission for roads and for a stadium. For a start, there might be a problem in having a sixty thousand capacity ground on the flight path to an airport.
What he was saying was that there are already the roads, and where there are roads there is little opposition to PP to build next to them.
There seemed to be support for a new stadium there when we wanted the National stadium?
Post by: Pete3206 on July 01, 2023, 03:51:05 PM
Post by: Rory on July 01, 2023, 04:07:07 PM
If we did have to move, can we not knock down One Stop? Plenty of room there and it's shit anyway.
Right next to Perry Barr station, on several bus routes into town, on the outer circle, could accommodate a tram link along the A34, lots of empty Commonwealth Games bollocks nearby that could be turned into hotels, road links across town and to the M6, plus, crucially, it's nearer to my house.
Best shout yet. Can I park on your drive, Rory?
It's less of a drive, more of a front garden, but sure, be my guest.
Post by: CT on July 01, 2023, 04:07:43 PM
West Ham sold their soul when they moved to the Olympic stadium. Aston Villa should stay where they are.
This, over and over again. If you haven’t seen a game at the London Stadium, go and do it and see if you’d fancy that for us every other week.
Post by: London Villan on July 01, 2023, 04:34:54 PM
Post by: Monty on July 01, 2023, 04:43:21 PM
Post by: Rory on July 01, 2023, 04:52:18 PM
It will never have the character of that old red brick façade and the knowledge that, when I go there, I'm going to the same ground as my father, grandfather, and great-grandfathers.
Are they still there, queuing for a pie and pint they decided they fancied at some point during the first Gulf War? 😉
Post by: Monty on July 01, 2023, 04:53:30 PM
It will never have the character of that old red brick façade and the knowledge that, when I go there, I'm going to the same ground as my father, grandfather, and great-grandfathers.
Are they still there, queuing for a pie and pint they decided they fancied at some point during the first Gulf War? 😉
*Boer War, but yes.
Post by: Rory on July 01, 2023, 04:59:13 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 01, 2023, 05:06:57 PM
West Ham sold their soul when they moved to the Olympic stadium. Aston Villa should stay where they are.
This, over and over again. If you haven’t seen a game at the London Stadium, go and do it and see if you’d fancy that for us every other week.
True, but then again, not every move to a new ground necessarily has to be to one as bad as that, ie to a stadium already in existence, built for another sport.
You could equally say, anyone who fancies moving to a new ground, go to the Spurs stadium as see how much you'd fancy that.
Post by: rougegorge on July 01, 2023, 05:17:29 PM
I love VP, but we all follow the team not the stadium and the memories would not be lost. Moving doesn't necessarily enhance prospects of success, but saying put doesn't either.
It will be an improvement with the planned redevelopments, but we can't regenerate the whole area, and I don't know whether it will entice people to arrive much earlier or leave later.
Also, I think if the club do want to relocate, there would be possible sites and options, as 'where there's a will..'...
Post by: Risso on July 01, 2023, 05:18:01 PM
It will never have the character of that old red brick façade and the knowledge that, when I go there, I'm going to the same ground as my father, grandfather, and great-grandfathers.
My great grandad went to Wellington Road, so I don't have that attachment ;)
Post by: CT on July 01, 2023, 05:31:44 PM
West Ham sold their soul when they moved to the Olympic stadium. Aston Villa should stay where they are.
This, over and over again. If you haven’t seen a game at the London Stadium, go and do it and see if you’d fancy that for us every other week.
True, but then again, not every move to a new ground necessarily has to be to one as bad as that, ie to a stadium already in existence, built for another sport.
You could equally say, anyone who fancies moving to a new ground, go to the Spurs stadium as see how much you'd fancy that.
I found the Spurs stadium equally soulless. The lack of atmosphere made by 60,000 people was hard to believe. A flashy stadium, looks like it made primarily for the NFL games with its three layers of flashing advertising boards etc.
Mind you, Chelsea at SB was probably the quietest set of fans last season - maybe football is just heading that way regardless of the stadium.
Post by: wince on July 01, 2023, 05:59:02 PM
The Foo Fighters. The band Nirvana could have been!The lead singer looks like nirvanas drummer…….
Post by: tomd2103 on July 02, 2023, 12:58:47 AM
Looking at where the 76s play, it's an out of town arena, next to the NFL stadium and the MLB ballpark. As an anchor venue, the NEC is probably the only similar, feasible size location - but geographically it's all wrong.
Wouldn’t be in favour of a move to the NEC site at all. Too far out and I think we would lose our identity somewhat.
A city centre site and the possibilities that might bring would probably be the only real option I think would be palatable.
Palatable? You’d move just to be nearer B1? As a 2nd city with a population of over 1 million where we’re located in B6 is about as close as we can get or could expect to get. Why would the club even consider moving if it has already invested in academy facilities?
I'm not advocating a move of ground, but if it meant that we could potentially take that next step up off the field and compete comercially then it would be something worth considering at least.
The only location I could see offering that in the area would be the city centre. As others have pointed out, I think part of the issue and maybe why we haven't been able to make that next step off the field is the location of VP and the fact it is only really visited in numbers on match days. A city centre location would offer a lot more options.
All that said, there would have to be clear benefits before it would be considered really and I'm not sure it is a real prospect anyway.
Post by: Goldenballs on July 02, 2023, 08:55:41 AM
If you want to progress in an even bigger jump, bin off the old stadium and build/move to a better one, regardless of how fond you may be of the existing one.
A similar, if a bit of an extreme comparison, or not?
Post by: algy on July 02, 2023, 09:08:27 AM
The best we could hope for in terms of moving would be a B1 location and a pastiche of Villa Park. But I don't really want a Disneyfied version of football. We play at a glorious old ground, it's borders defined by the streets of the community it represents.
It's a bit sketchy, the transport is far from perfect, there aren't so many places to drink because the local population aren't big drinkers, ... but the ACR, the fact even rats won't eat at the Villa Chippy, the walk to the ground, ... Nothing you can put a price on, but something more valuable than anything you could ever buy.
Post by: tomd2103 on July 02, 2023, 10:38:51 AM
I've been thinking, and have decided that even a move to the city centre isn't something I think would be a good thing.
The best we could hope for in terms of moving would be a B1 location and a pastiche of Villa Park. But I don't really want a Disneyfied version of football. We play at a glorious old ground, it's borders defined by the streets of the community it represents.
It's a bit sketchy, the transport is far from perfect, there aren't so many places to drink because the local population aren't big drinkers, ... but the ACR, the fact even rats won't eat at the Villa Chippy, the walk to the ground, ... Nothing you can put a price on, but something more valuable than anything you could ever buy.
With a redeveloped North Stand and improved transport links, that's the conclusion I would probably come to as well. It depends on how the hierarchy at the club view it though I suppose.
Post by: Monty on July 02, 2023, 10:52:18 AM
The Emirates is soulless. The Etihad is soulless. New White Hart Lane is soulless. The London Stadium is unbelievably soulless. And I'm here to tell you that the Aston Villa Arena brought to you by Dystopic Asian-Facing Bookie would be no different.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 02, 2023, 10:58:36 AM
We are spitting distance from a major motorway interchange at the centre of the country's motorway network - but it takes ages to get there, and made much much worse by the refusal to reinstate the one way system on Aston Hall Road.
We're sandwiched between two train stations - but they are an absolute nightmare to use because yes, the platform is too small at one of them, but also because the way are operated sees trains leaving far from full whilst people wait over an hour outside.
Not only that, but those stations don't even get serviced by more trains on match days.
The ground isn't even that far from the city centre, but there isn't any coordinated bus shuttle system bar an absurdly expensive trial last game of last season.
All these are problems that could be chipped away at without the need to spend millions of pounds but the parties involved won't even do that.
Post by: Nev on July 02, 2023, 11:12:03 AM
Post by: Axl Rose on July 02, 2023, 11:20:24 AM
West Ham sold their soul when they moved to the Olympic stadium. Aston Villa should stay where they are.
This, over and over again. If you haven’t seen a game at the London Stadium, go and do it and see if you’d fancy that for us every other week.
True, but then again, not every move to a new ground necessarily has to be to one as bad as that, ie to a stadium already in existence, built for another sport.
You could equally say, anyone who fancies moving to a new ground, go to the Spurs stadium as see how much you'd fancy that.
I found the Spurs stadium equally soulless. The lack of atmosphere made by 60,000 people was hard to believe. A flashy stadium, looks like it made primarily for the NFL games with its three layers of flashing advertising boards etc.
Mind you, Chelsea at SB was probably the quietest set of fans last season - maybe football is just heading that way regardless of the stadium.
Spot on, fella
A giant 'no' to a new stadium.
Would like to see a fan vote, yes or no, however.
Post by: LeeB on July 02, 2023, 11:25:29 AM
Post by: Simon Page on July 02, 2023, 11:30:10 AM
Has anyone advocating a city centre site tried travelling around there on a Saturday afternoon? It's a nightmare as it is without another 60,000 people descending on it
I can't think of any part of Birmingham that isn't a nightmare to get to, from or around. It's like someone has chosen it as the punishment for being the world's greatest city.
Post by: itbrvilla on July 02, 2023, 11:34:27 AM
Has anyone advocating a city centre site tried travelling around there on a Saturday afternoon? It's a nightmare as it is without another 60,000 people descending on itHow many times a season do we play at home on a Saturday afternoon? I reckon less than half our home league games were on a Saturday afternoon.
Post by: Paul.S on July 02, 2023, 11:52:14 AM
There were obviously less cars in those days so what’s gone wrong? Would todays privately owned transport companies view it as financially viable to lay on extra buses or trains for a few hours every other week? Are our expectations too much these days and do we expect just to walk straight on a train and not wait at all? Could the club put on buses at a reasonable cost afterwards and would they be used and if they did? Would building a new ground really end all of these issues?
Getting away from a lot of grounds can be a nightmare. 40 to 50,000 people leaving a venue at the same time means there will be bottle necks no matter where you go. I’m not saying there doesn’t need to be an improvement and the Council really do need to think about how an extra 10,000 people every other week would benefit the local economy.
Surely between the club, the council and transport companies there has to be a way of improving things. Where there’s a will there’s a way.
Post by: eamonn on July 02, 2023, 12:42:24 PM
Post by: Ger Regan on July 02, 2023, 04:45:10 PM
I still haven't heard a decent argument why the shuttle service model for Edgbaston isn't suitable for Villa Park.I work in public transport here in ireland, but we operate a different model to that in Birmingham, particularly on the bus side, where my organisation are a bit like TfL in london. We are responsible for PSO services that getting a subvention from the state for socially necessary (but not commercially viable) services. There's a serious shortage of staff to allow us to introduce the increased services we want to implement, never mind deal with any regular large scale events such as games at VP. I'm not familiar with Edgebaston but presumably they're reasonably irregular (fewer than the 19+ games we'd have), so more likely to be manageable with overtime for existing staff for the likes of National express. It wouldn't be viable to do that for an event every fortnight, and wouldn't make commercial sense to hire drivers for something that only occurs every couple of weeks. For events such as concerts, it's up to the event organisers to arrange an appropriate traffic management plan for the event, which would generally include engaging with a private operator to provide transport before and after. Other than some scope on the rail, we've had to be very firm in not being able to offer additional capacity on our bus services, as otherwise it would impact on the operator's ability to deliver their normal services.
Ultimately, the club could arrange something, but it would be costly, and either they'd have to swallow the cost themselves or it would get passed onto the supporters (as with the trial at the end of the season). Does anyone know how that went, actually?
Post by: London Villan on July 02, 2023, 04:53:48 PM
Post by: olaftab on July 02, 2023, 05:32:21 PM
30 buses per match would cost the best part of £50k to hire.During my school days free (to users) buses ran from Dale End to Church road and back to Dale End after the match. There was never any shortage of buses to hop on. How did that work?
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 02, 2023, 05:38:04 PM
Post by: olaftab on July 02, 2023, 05:47:00 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on July 02, 2023, 07:18:24 PM
30 buses per match would cost the best part of £50k to hire.Half the weekly wage of one squad player. Every 2 weeks.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 02, 2023, 07:23:14 PM
30 buses per match would cost the best part of £50k to hire.During my school days free (to users) buses ran from Dale End to Church road and back to Dale End after the match. There was never any shortage of buses to hop on. How did that work?
Public owned bus services rather than the rag-tag shitty mess of private ownership we have now.
Post by: London Villan on July 02, 2023, 07:27:46 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 02, 2023, 07:29:48 PM
Add £5 per ticket for the hospitality seats to cover the cost and it’s free for anyone with a match ticket who wants to use them. Each bus does 3-4 trips, thats 6,000 seats.
I doubt the feasibility of 3-4 trips, especially after the match.
Then there's other things - how do the bus company check the user has a valid ticket? They install readers on all their buses? It quickly gets complicated.
Post by: London Villan on July 02, 2023, 07:46:54 PM
Post by: Des Little on July 02, 2023, 09:40:34 PM
Post by: LeeB on July 02, 2023, 10:58:37 PM
The price of my season ticket nowadays I should get collected from my house and taken to B6, with a pint and a bag of salted peanuts for the journey.
Should be carried in a sedan chair after the latest hike
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on July 02, 2023, 11:15:34 PM
The price of my season ticket nowadays I should get collected from my house and taken to B6, with a pint and a bag of salted peanuts for the journey.
Should be carried in a sedan chair after the latest hike
ST holder I know at Man U told me his has gone up by £30. This is the first increase in his area for 11 years which surprised me.
Post by: Villan For Life on July 02, 2023, 11:30:57 PM
The price of my season ticket nowadays I should get collected from my house and taken to B6, with a pint and a bag of salted peanuts for the journey.
That option is available, they pick you up at 7.30am on the Thursday for a Saturday 3pm kick off. There’s no washing/shower facilities though.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 03, 2023, 11:18:32 AM
or another £32 per season ticket to put it into property context.30 buses per match would cost the best part of £50k to hire.Half the weekly wage of one squad player. Every 2 weeks.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 03, 2023, 11:24:50 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 03, 2023, 11:37:43 AM
We can't just magic 30 coaches. As mentioned before, for the Commonwealth Games there were coaches from all around the country specifically hired for the event. I just don't see this being an attractive gig for coach companies.
There are a number of coach companies in and around Birmingham. I'm sure they'd welcome the business and certainly around the winter months. Interested to see where the figure of £50k for 30 coaches over a period of no more than 4 or 5 hours is arrived at. Less than half that is more realistic I'd say.
Post by: Nev on July 03, 2023, 11:47:28 AM
We can't just magic 30 coaches. As mentioned before, for the Commonwealth Games there were coaches from all around the country specifically hired for the event. I just don't see this being an attractive gig for coach companies.
But Edgbaston can engage NE to provide double decker buses. Why can't we?
Post by: London Villan on July 03, 2023, 12:00:11 PM
More of an issue would be creating one-way systems and quick access to and from the city centre.
If there is a will there is a way.
Post by: Ger Regan on July 03, 2023, 12:10:47 PM
How often do they need them in Edgbaston? It's a lot easier to cover events with overtime if they are infrequent, less so if it's something that has to happen every couple of weeks.We can't just magic 30 coaches. As mentioned before, for the Commonwealth Games there were coaches from all around the country specifically hired for the event. I just don't see this being an attractive gig for coach companies.
But Edgbaston can engage NE to provide double decker buses. Why can't we?
Post by: olaftab on July 03, 2023, 12:24:50 PM
We can't just magic 30 coaches. As mentioned before, for the Commonwealth Games there were coaches from all around the country specifically hired for the event. I just don't see this being an attractive gig for coach companies.During CWG's anything upto 150 to 200 buses were made available, mostly from around the country but I am sure WMPT can find 30 standing idle in their garages on a Saturday or Sunday. Bigger problem is weekday matches when full service is required for the general public.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 03, 2023, 12:31:38 PM
How often do they need them in Edgbaston? It's a lot easier to cover events with overtime if they are infrequent, less so if it's something that has to happen every couple of weeks.We can't just magic 30 coaches. As mentioned before, for the Commonwealth Games there were coaches from all around the country specifically hired for the event. I just don't see this being an attractive gig for coach companies.
But Edgbaston can engage NE to provide double decker buses. Why can't we?
Mentioned it before but they manage it very well at Anfield. Paid £4 return when we played them at the end of last season. Outwards, we walked from the pub in the city centre straight on to a bus. After the game, a 5 minute walk from the ground and a 10 min queue to get the bus back.
Post by: Pat Mustard on July 03, 2023, 12:34:02 PM
Last season was the worst I can remember for using public transport to get to matches. Just getting things back to how they were pre-pandemic would be a start.
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on July 03, 2023, 01:08:42 PM
How often do they need them in Edgbaston? It's a lot easier to cover events with overtime if they are infrequent, less so if it's something that has to happen every couple of weeks.We can't just magic 30 coaches. As mentioned before, for the Commonwealth Games there were coaches from all around the country specifically hired for the event. I just don't see this being an attractive gig for coach companies.
But Edgbaston can engage NE to provide double decker buses. Why can't we?
Mentioned it before but they manage it very well at Anfield. Paid £4 return when we played them at the end of last season. Outwards, we walked from the pub in the city centre straight on to a bus. After the game, a 5 minute walk from the ground and a 10 min queue to get the bus back.
Was about to mention this. Everton do it too. A big line of buses (not coaches) lined up near the park after the game, ready to take people back to the city centre.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 03, 2023, 01:17:14 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on July 03, 2023, 01:31:00 PM
A new stadium is just such a red herring. How much real extra revenue would it bring in? How much extra capacity? Enough to counteract the debt the club would be saddled with? And with all the intangibles we'd lose as well.
The Emirates is soulless. The Etihad is soulless. New White Hart Lane is soulless. The London Stadium is unbelievably soulless. And I'm here to tell you that the Aston Villa Arena brought to you by Dystopic Asian-Facing Bookie would be no different.
That would be the big question to consider. Would there be an increase in income, commercial opportunities etc. that would enable us to move to the next level and closer to Liverpool, Chelsea, the Manchester and North London clubs in terms of the commercial side of things?
If not, then I agree that moving from Villa Park would not really be an option.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 03, 2023, 01:35:45 PM
I dont think we are being overly ambitious and demanding in wanting the bus and train companies to move a few thousand people from one place in the city to another at set times a few times a month.
Nothing about the extent to which this country is falling apart surprises me any more.
I think we should just expand and let people fight their way to and from the ground. The rest is beyond our control.
Post by: Dogtanian on July 03, 2023, 01:39:37 PM
I dont think we are being overly ambitious and demanding in wanting the bus and train companies to move a few thousand people from one place in the city to another at set times a few times a month.
Nothing about the extent to which this country is falling apart surprises me any more.
It's almost as if winning an election and running a country require completely different skills, knowledge, and experience!
Post by: PeterWithe on July 03, 2023, 01:40:53 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 03, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 03, 2023, 01:58:16 PM
I agree it would be nice. But when people are paying higher council tax bills to facilitate transport links to Villa Park, it won't go down well with the vast majority of B'ham residents. I can see why the Council are reluctant to spend millions on a train station that won't have significant additional use outside of match days, particularly when they seem to have a massive hole in their finances.
Why do you think the council would be paying for it?
Post by: chrisw1 on July 03, 2023, 02:00:46 PM
Post by: LeeB on July 03, 2023, 02:03:47 PM
Aren't we asking the council to fund the upgrade of the train station?
No
Post by: chrisw1 on July 03, 2023, 02:10:39 PM
We're not going to fix it all with buses without the club funding it privately I'm sure DW said they have been asked before and they weren't interested.
Post by: LeeB on July 03, 2023, 02:15:09 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 03, 2023, 02:15:12 PM
Well, we are, as part of the solution.
Can you link any evidence of this? You seem very sure.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 03, 2023, 02:37:55 PM
Well I'm no expert on local government funding etc. I had assumed as we had been putting pressure on Andy Street then any upgrade to the train stations would come out of the public purse.Well, we are, as part of the solution.
Can you link any evidence of this? You seem very sure.
The first hit on Google came up with this on the WMCA website:
The Transport Budget is funded by a levy from the seven metropolitan councils. In January 2017 the West Midlands Combined Authority set a levy of £121.54m for the 2017/18 year, a 2.63% reduction from 2016/17. The levy is allocated to each district based upon published population figures. Details of the Transport Budget and Levy can be found in the Transport for West Midlands (TfWM) Transport Plan on the TfWM website and also the annual expenditure leaflet.
I'm not really after a debate as it's not something I have any expertise on. But as a layman, ultimately transport upgrades are inevitably funded by the taxpayer aren't they?
Post by: Risso on July 03, 2023, 02:42:46 PM
https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/transport/leeds-city-council-says-rail-station-gateway-improvement-costs-increased-by-ps10m-due-to-inflation-and-economic-pressures-3894678
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 03, 2023, 02:43:33 PM
https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/west-midlands-secures-over-1bn-funding-to-drive-a-green-transport-revolution/
I haven’t seen or heard any news source claiming BCC would be paying for it.
Post by: AV82EC on July 03, 2023, 02:43:59 PM
Well I'm no expert on local government funding etc. I had assumed as we had been putting pressure on Andy Street then any upgrade to the train stations would come out of the public purse.Well, we are, as part of the solution.
Can you link any evidence of this? You seem very sure.
The first hit on Google came up with this on the WMCA website:
The Transport Budget is funded by a levy from the seven metropolitan councils. In January 2017 the West Midlands Combined Authority set a levy of £121.54m for the 2017/18 year, a 2.63% reduction from 2016/17. The levy is allocated to each district based upon published population figures. Details of the Transport Budget and Levy can be found in the Transport for West Midlands (TfWM) Transport Plan on the TfWM website and also the annual expenditure leaflet.
I'm not really after a debate as it's not something I have any expertise on. But as a layman, ultimately transport upgrades are inevitably funded by the taxpayer aren't they?
Yep and in Birminghams case coordinated by Street and WMCA. BCC will get a say and have some influence but ultimately it’s Streets head on the block for this one.
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 03, 2023, 04:15:41 PM
Post by: Richard E on July 03, 2023, 04:38:21 PM
Post by: DB on July 04, 2023, 10:27:56 PM
Post by: eamonn on July 04, 2023, 10:30:15 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 04, 2023, 10:35:07 PM
That Leighton fella has an interesting proposal on Twitter, what a knob.
And it is?
Post by: DB on July 04, 2023, 10:40:15 PM
That Leighton fella has an interesting proposal on Twitter, what a knob.
And it is?
Knock down the ‘dump’ of the surrounding area around VP, buy all the land to allow us to do what we want, sorry, the phrase was bulldoze it.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on July 04, 2023, 10:55:35 PM
That Leighton fella, what a knob.
The rest was superfluous.
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 04, 2023, 11:16:52 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on July 05, 2023, 08:42:04 AM
So effectively around £10 billion required, whilst simultaneously removing the population that would help to justify the expense of upgrading public transport in the area.
It's a binary choice between that and moving to a new ground that isn't in a 'dump' apparently.
Post by: Risso on July 05, 2023, 09:48:21 AM
Post by: Axl Rose on July 05, 2023, 09:53:03 AM
I don't think he'd put much thought into it to be honest, he just drew a line on MS Paint around the area and said bulldoze it. He lives to get a reaction.
This.
He's such a self important wanker.
Fuck him
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 05, 2023, 09:59:59 AM
I've just looked at his 'proposal', I'll be kind and say it's fanciful at best. If I'm right, he is recommending we buy up in excess of 500 homes and businesses, close all of the surrounding roads and rebuild an entirely new stadium on a plot roughly 5 times that of the current ground.
So effectively around £10 billion required, whilst simultaneously removing the population that would help to justify the expense of upgrading public transport in the area.
It's a binary choice between that and moving to a new ground that isn't in a 'dump' apparently.
10 billion? I’d guess around £75 million for the 500 houses. Where does the rest come from?
Post by: eamonn on July 05, 2023, 11:14:28 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 05, 2023, 11:24:13 AM
I've just looked at his 'proposal', I'll be kind and say it's fanciful at best. If I'm right, he is recommending we buy up in excess of 500 homes and businesses, close all of the surrounding roads and rebuild an entirely new stadium on a plot roughly 5 times that of the current ground.
So effectively around £10 billion required, whilst simultaneously removing the population that would help to justify the expense of upgrading public transport in the area.
It's a binary choice between that and moving to a new ground that isn't in a 'dump' apparently.
10 billion? I’d guess around £75 million for the 500 houses. Where does the rest come from?
LeeB owns the freehold.
Post by: DB on July 05, 2023, 11:29:04 AM
I don't think he'd put much thought into it to be honest, he just drew a line on MS Paint around the area and said bulldoze it. He lives to get a reaction.
This.
He's such a self important wanker.
Fuck him
Attention seeking c*ckwomble.
Post by: FatSam on July 05, 2023, 12:07:18 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 05, 2023, 02:01:35 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/RcfmrVt/F0-OA2-UJWc-AAyi-C0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RcfmrVt)
I'm sure he's just posting for effect, but even so the callousness is remarkable.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 05, 2023, 02:13:49 PM
Post by: OCD on July 05, 2023, 02:17:27 PM
Maybe the club could adopt a long-term approach though where anytime a property goes onto the market, we purchase it for market value. Then put it back on the market as a rental property until such time that blocks have eventually built up and we can re-purpose the land.
No intimidation tactics and Liverpool cited as an example of how not to do it.
Post by: paul_e on July 05, 2023, 02:21:56 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on July 05, 2023, 02:24:40 PM
I've just looked at his 'proposal', I'll be kind and say it's fanciful at best. If I'm right, he is recommending we buy up in excess of 500 homes and businesses, close all of the surrounding roads and rebuild an entirely new stadium on a plot roughly 5 times that of the current ground.
So effectively around £10 billion required, whilst simultaneously removing the population that would help to justify the expense of upgrading public transport in the area.
It's a binary choice between that and moving to a new ground that isn't in a 'dump' apparently.
10 billion? I’d guess around £75 million for the 500 houses. Where does the rest come from?
£10 billion might be over-egging it a bit, but his proposal was effectively the bulldozing of an entire neighbourhood - hundreds of houses, businesses, several schools and places of worship that would be gone for a start. This is just for those in the demolition zone as well, before any costs of the knock-on effects to the rest of the area (so the industrial estate, the new Wholesale Markets, Salts, Tesco and all the others who lose access for a period of years). Legal costs alone for that lot could potentially run to 10s if not 100s of millions, and then you still have to build a stadium and presumably lots of buildings to replace the wasteland that has been created as well as the required roads and utilities.
Look at how much the regeneration projects at Smithfield (£2 billion) and Perry Barr (£750 million) are costing, which are both a fraction of the area he wanted to bulldoze and were effectively already on brownfield sites. It's not a huge leap to say this would easily cost £5-10 billion in total.
Post by: oldhill_avfc on July 05, 2023, 02:44:44 PM
The lost amenity of the park could be relocated nearby (they use it for cage football from what I can see at the moment).
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 05, 2023, 03:01:03 PM
Gross oversimplification.
Maybe the club could adopt a long-term approach though where anytime a property goes onto the market, we purchase it for market value. Then put it back on the market as a rental property until such time that blocks have eventually built up and we can re-purpose the land.
No intimidation tactics and Liverpool cited as an example of how not to do it.
The problem is that, unless you do the horrible shitty stuff Liverpool did - which I would not want us to do - then that can take literally decades.
Post by: Drummond on July 05, 2023, 03:07:11 PM
Post by: oldhill_avfc on July 05, 2023, 03:23:00 PM
Post by: Risso on July 05, 2023, 03:53:28 PM
I've just looked at his 'proposal', I'll be kind and say it's fanciful at best. If I'm right, he is recommending we buy up in excess of 500 homes and businesses, close all of the surrounding roads and rebuild an entirely new stadium on a plot roughly 5 times that of the current ground.
So effectively around £10 billion required, whilst simultaneously removing the population that would help to justify the expense of upgrading public transport in the area.
It's a binary choice between that and moving to a new ground that isn't in a 'dump' apparently.
10 billion? I’d guess around £75 million for the 500 houses. Where does the rest come from?
£10 billion might be over-egging it a bit, but his proposal was effectively the bulldozing of an entire neighbourhood - hundreds of houses, businesses, several schools and places of worship that would be gone for a start. This is just for those in the demolition zone as well, before any costs of the knock-on effects to the rest of the area (so the industrial estate, the new Wholesale Markets, Salts, Tesco and all the others who lose access for a period of years). Legal costs alone for that lot could potentially run to 10s if not 100s of millions, and then you still have to build a stadium and presumably lots of buildings to replace the wasteland that has been created as well as the required roads and utilities.
Look at how much the regeneration projects at Smithfield (£2 billion) and Perry Barr (£750 million) are costing, which are both a fraction of the area he wanted to bulldoze and were effectively already on brownfield sites. It's not a huge leap to say this would easily cost £5-10 billion in total.
Why are you still going on as if he was making a sensible proposal? It was just a stupid post to get a reaction.
Post by: maidstonevillain on July 05, 2023, 04:52:28 PM
I saw that earlier. For those that can't be bothered this was his masterplan - cpo and bulldoze the outlined area.
(https://i.ibb.co/RcfmrVt/F0-OA2-UJWc-AAyi-C0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RcfmrVt)
I'm sure he's just posting for effect, but even so the callousness is remarkable.
Demolish the house my mother was born in. Not having that.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 05, 2023, 05:24:05 PM
Post by: Drummond on July 05, 2023, 05:36:08 PM
'We're not sensitive virtue signallers, we just don't like you(r opinions).
So he blocked me...
Haha
Post by: FatSam on July 05, 2023, 05:36:26 PM
Never really looked at a map of the are before - but it looks like you could rebuild on the a combination of the existing site and part of Aston Park across Trinity Road (if the council were willing to be supportive etc).Aston Park is the grounds of a Grade I listed Jacobean Manor House. Extending the Trinity Road stand over the road was itself fairly extreme. I might be wrong, but I don’t think it’s realistic to start appropriating land from within the park, regardless of any reprovision of amenity. I think the most that might be possible is to extend the Holte End over the road also. This is not ideal though, as a significant amount of the space that is required for circulation and access within the stand is lost to the road.
The lost amenity of the park could be relocated nearby (they use it for cage football from what I can see at the moment).
Post by: PeterWithe on July 05, 2023, 05:38:41 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 05, 2023, 05:40:14 PM
I responded to him on twitter... So he accused people who didn't agree as being sensitive virtue signallers....
'We're not sensitive virtue signallers, we just don't like you(r opinions).
So he blocked me...
Haha
That's an improvement. Anyone who doesn't agree with some of his other stuff is a lefty nonce.
Post by: FatSam on July 05, 2023, 05:50:40 PM
Rebuilding probably becomes the better option if you feel that despite re-developing the North Stand, commercial/corporate/hospitality income remains very limited and/or there might be a need to further increase capacity again.I think this is right. The new Witton End will obviously increase match day revenue considerably, but is there still a ceiling on both match day and non match day revenue just by virtue of the location? Similarly, the capacity will supposedly increase to 52k, but is the cost of increasing it further disproportionately expensive?
It’s tricky, we all want Villa to be the best that they can be, but what are we willing to lose to achieve it? It hasn’t been a question that we’ve had to grapple with under previous owners, or perhaps the stakes just haven’t been as high due to the trajectory that football has taken. I was upset when the old Trinity Road stand was replaced, but the intention as obviously to advance the club, and continue to compete.
I’ve written before about how important it is to me that Villa continue to play on the same rectangle of grass that they have for the last 125 years, but the fact is that many of our greatest achievements were made at Perry Barr, and we moved to Aston Lower Grounds to advance the club.
Yes, West Ham fans were not happy to leave the Boleyn Ground, but the fact is they’re currently enjoying their greatest period of success for 40 years. Also, the London Stadium wasn’t built for them, they are just renting it.
Post by: London Villan on July 05, 2023, 05:57:34 PM
That said. it's slightly more viable to do, as ultimately they are big distribution sheds (and the wholesale market) and would be more motivated to move by cash, rather than any emotional ties to home etc. But probably a non starter too.
Post by: paul_e on July 05, 2023, 06:21:18 PM
1. Witton Lane
2 Holte/Trinity corner
To start with the latter the onlt viable option is to take some land from the park and move the road, we've done as much as we can with the road in it's current course. The problem with this is that I don't think you gain enough (it's maybe a couple of thousand seats) for it to worth the cost or disruption it creates.
On the Witton side you're probably looking at buying pretty much all of Holte Road and McGregor Close (certainly everything on the same as as the ground), removing the entire section of Witton lane between Holte Road and Station Road and creating a new spine road along the current route of holte/mcgregor and linking back up at the current Station Road junction. So ~50-70 houses a small park and a community basketball court, along with 3 roads being removed or replaced. I'm not sure if even that is viable within a decade.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 05, 2023, 06:28:45 PM
Local residents might like the traffic calming benefits it brings
Post by: OCD on July 05, 2023, 06:41:23 PM
Gross oversimplification.
Maybe the club could adopt a long-term approach though where anytime a property goes onto the market, we purchase it for market value. Then put it back on the market as a rental property until such time that blocks have eventually built up and we can re-purpose the land.
No intimidation tactics and Liverpool cited as an example of how not to do it.
The problem is that, unless you do the horrible shitty stuff Liverpool did - which I would not want us to do - then that can take literally decades.
I did say long-term! The Chinese tend to plan decades ahead. If we had someone with long-term thinking 30/40 years ago, we'd be there or nearly there now.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 05, 2023, 06:52:22 PM
Gross oversimplification.
Maybe the club could adopt a long-term approach though where anytime a property goes onto the market, we purchase it for market value. Then put it back on the market as a rental property until such time that blocks have eventually built up and we can re-purpose the land.
No intimidation tactics and Liverpool cited as an example of how not to do it.
The problem is that, unless you do the horrible shitty stuff Liverpool did - which I would not want us to do - then that can take literally decades.
I did say long-term! The Chinese tend to plan decades ahead. If we had someone with long-term thinking 30/40 years ago, we'd be there or nearly there now.
Yes, long-term thinking and planning is vital. If the plan is to expand further, and there’s no prospect of that happening after we build the new North Stand, then there’s no point spending £100m on the new North Stand. Everybody needs to be on board with what happens after that - if indeed we do hold out hope to go to 60/70k.
Post by: London Villan on July 05, 2023, 07:18:50 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 05, 2023, 07:37:12 PM
As we are likely to stay on the current site, then it would make more sense to move the pitch 15-20m north when we build the new stand. That would then free up more space at the Holte End end of the plot for a bigger stand. But that is a very long term view.
Eh? How would that work?
We build a new stand and shift the pitch 20m in that direction?
Can you imagine Flin5tone's justifiable anger at the people in the Trinity and Witton finding themselves looking at a pitch in a different post code?
That wouldn't be about building a new stand, it would be about building an entire new stadium on the current site in one go.
Post by: Villan For Life on July 05, 2023, 07:40:29 PM
As we are likely to stay on the current site, then it would make more sense to move the pitch 15-20m north when we build the new stand. That would then free up more space at the Holte End end of the plot for a bigger stand. But that is a very long term view.
That sounds very Molineux during the 1980’s. In between redevelopment phases the Holte would be a very long way from the pitch.
Post by: Louzie0 on July 05, 2023, 08:03:43 PM
Sport site flexibility.
I’m sure they’d understand.
Post by: FatSam on July 05, 2023, 08:31:59 PM
Yes, long-term thinking and planning is vital. If the plan is to expand further, and there’s no prospect of that happening after we build the new North Stand, then there’s no point spending £100m on the new North Stand. Everybody needs to be on board with what happens after that - if indeed we do hold out hope to go to 60/70k.Yes, that’s exactly the point.
Post by: Toronto Villa on July 05, 2023, 09:45:19 PM
https://twitter.com/justin_avfc_/status/1676691984952459266?s=46&t=0-BUXD66ovTcofwrbTW4Ag
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 05, 2023, 10:08:19 PM
Just read this. Not sure if it’s factual. Suggests work is will start on the North over the next two years and Doug after that.
https://twitter.com/justin_avfc_/status/1676691984952459266?s=46&t=0-BUXD66ovTcofwrbTW4Ag
That Twitter account seems to pop up quite a bit on my feed so I'd be inclined to think he at least believes it's factual. Pretty good news if true, just need to have some patience.
Post by: Ads on July 05, 2023, 11:24:32 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 05, 2023, 11:25:49 PM
Post by: eamonn on July 05, 2023, 11:29:10 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 05, 2023, 11:30:49 PM
Suggests we will be able to maintain capacity throughout construction if its a 2 year build.
Don't see how they'd be able to do that.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 05, 2023, 11:40:17 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on July 05, 2023, 11:58:21 PM
A redeveloped North Stand, a bit of attention to the existing stands and sorting the transport issues out and I think it will be fine going forward. Redeveloping the Witton Lane stand would be ideal, but there are all kinds of logistical problems with that.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 12:06:10 AM
Is Villa Live/An Equivalent totally sunk? And all those pretty walkways on that planning animation from near Witton station, encompassing the new Academy building? That looked great. Even if the Villa Chippy still stood with its rat-customer base.
What they’ve got planned for Stumps looks mint. Hope there’s room for both.
https://twitter.com/villa_woody1000/status/1676727642156834818?s=46&t=VWSnrfzVD9HJx66gk9Rdow
Post by: Risso on July 06, 2023, 01:15:33 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 01:48:24 AM
It all still feels a bit cheap and scaled back to me, and isn't a patch on Villa Live. Villa Live was supposed to be a completely new space with the club shop in it, now the shop is going to be in the North Stand under the revised plans with the elevations of the new stand being scaled back, which sounds a bit shit. And instead of the completely new space, they're just going to tart up that eyesore of the old academy building. They're saying that they're still planning Villa Live for some unspecified time in the future, I just don't think they ever will. I also can't see how in the overall development that erecting a new building on what is effectively empty car park land would slow anything down which is the main reason given.
You could be right and the concept has been value engineered. If it’s a success though that might prove the case for Villa Live. If they’ve found a way past the constraints of the road and the local housing for a new Witton Lane behemoth, it’s fantastic news.
Post by: Nev on July 06, 2023, 02:44:41 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 03:09:46 AM
Post by: London Villan on July 06, 2023, 05:31:47 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 05:56:44 AM
That change to put some benches and a bar in Stumps has probably just saved the club £10m. Now looks like something you see in Digbeth.
Definitely a vibe I’d stick around or arrive early for.
Post by: The Man With A Stick on July 06, 2023, 07:24:21 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 06, 2023, 07:48:52 AM
This, together with the revamped Witton Arms should be a decent upgrade on current options near the ground.
Post by: ChicagoLion on July 06, 2023, 07:52:33 AM
Post by: London Villan on July 06, 2023, 08:21:18 AM
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Post by: Chris Smith on July 06, 2023, 09:17:06 AM
Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 09:36:11 AM
Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Post by: Risso on July 06, 2023, 09:46:16 AM
The Warehouse looks great but it needs to be twice the size, given there's hardly anywhere to get a drink near the ground any more.
That's exactly what Villa Live was supposed to be.
Post by: ChicagoLion on July 06, 2023, 09:54:10 AM
From oak panelling to chip board,Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Post by: Chris Smith on July 06, 2023, 10:14:15 AM
Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Ta.
Post by: cdward on July 06, 2023, 10:15:56 AM
New buildings usually start off as a grand palace with lots of innovation and cutting edge ideas, and end up as a square box. Form follows function.Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 06, 2023, 10:16:37 AM
The Warehouse looks great but it needs to be twice the size, given there's hardly anywhere to get a drink near the ground any more.
That's exactly what Villa Live was supposed to be.
This. It all looks a little bit tinpot. Not terrible, just a bit cheap
Get Villa Live built Villa, fucking hell
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 06, 2023, 10:22:42 AM
New buildings usually start off as a grand palace with lots of innovation and cutting edge ideas, and end up as a square box. Form follows function.Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Ironic that the original Trinity broke all of those rules with Rinder’s “money no object” approach to the architecture.
Post by: Nev on July 06, 2023, 10:26:22 AM
Post by: artvandelay on July 06, 2023, 10:37:38 AM
Post by: john e on July 06, 2023, 10:46:20 AM
It happens more and more as the football ground landscape becomes very similar
There is always very favourable comments by the away visitors, proper ground, proper club all that sort of stuff
I reckon it would be away fans favourite ground
And there’s us saying we should knock it down. It’s an absolute joke
There be an outcry from Villa fans if that ever happened and not only Villa fans
It would be like knocking down Hever Castle because it isn’t roomy enough and the toilets need attention
I’ve been to most of the new grounds They are all nice, but there’s something missing
Let’s not become the local counsellors of the 60’s and 70’s knocking down precious buildings and building shit that won’t last in its place
Take the Villa away from Villa Park and you take the heart out of the club
Post by: Monty on July 06, 2023, 10:51:16 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 06, 2023, 12:04:12 PM
One thing I’ve noticed while a lot of clubs have moved to new grounds, how much the away fans like and appreciate Villa Park and the atmosphere of a traditional club
It happens more and more as the football ground landscape becomes very similar
There is always very favourable comments by the away visitors, proper ground, proper club all that sort of stuff
I reckon it would be away fans favourite ground
And there’s us saying we should knock it down. It’s an absolute joke
There be an outcry from Villa fans if that ever happened and not only Villa fans
It would be like knocking down Hever Castle because it isn’t roomy enough and the toilets need attention
I’ve been to most of the new grounds They are all nice, but there’s something missing
Let’s not become the local counsellors of the 60’s and 70’s knocking down precious buildings and building shit that won’t last in its place
Take the Villa away from Villa Park and you take the heart out of the club
Agree John, It's bad enough that we demolished the old Trinity stand in it's entirety to make way for the current one. It isn't exactly terrible but with a bit of architectural ingenuity we could have retained a lot of the old one to keep more of the essence of what Villa Park is to us and the footballing world. Football is an important part of our culture to the country and ironically as we approach our 150th year of existence we have actual Villa fans talking about moving or demolishing just to satisfy our need for increased capacity. I don't get it. Yes, we need some increased capacity and improvements none of which are insurmountable. Resolve issues and work towards that should be everyone's aim. We are a unique football club in that we have a unique ground in a unique location not that far from the center of Birmingham. It's the envy of others and should be cherished by us all.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 06, 2023, 12:09:59 PM
One thing I’ve noticed while a lot of clubs have moved to new grounds, how much the away fans like and appreciate Villa Park and the atmosphere of a traditional club
It happens more and more as the football ground landscape becomes very similar
There is always very favourable comments by the away visitors, proper ground, proper club all that sort of stuff
I reckon it would be away fans favourite ground
And there’s us saying we should knock it down. It’s an absolute joke
There be an outcry from Villa fans if that ever happened and not only Villa fans
It would be like knocking down Hever Castle because it isn’t roomy enough and the toilets need attention
I’ve been to most of the new grounds They are all nice, but there’s something missing
Let’s not become the local counsellors of the 60’s and 70’s knocking down precious buildings and building shit that won’t last in its place
Take the Villa away from Villa Park and you take the heart out of the club
Agree John, It's bad enough that we demolished the old Trinity stand in it's entirety to make way for the current one. It isn't exactly terrible but with a bit of architectural ingenuity we could have retained a lot of the old one to keep more of the essence of what Villa Park is to us and the footballing world. Football is an important part of our culture to the country and ironically as we approach our 150th year of existence we have actual Villa fans talking about moving or demolishing just to satisfy our need for increased capacity. I don't get it. Yes, we need some increased capacity and improvements none of which are insurmountable. Resolve issues and work towards that should be everyone's aim. We are a unique football club in that we have a unique ground in a unique location not that far from the center of Birmingham. It's the envy of others and should be cherished by us all.
Well said, both.
Post by: avfc456 on July 06, 2023, 12:13:01 PM
One thing I’ve noticed while a lot of clubs have moved to new grounds, how much the away fans like and appreciate Villa Park and the atmosphere of a traditional club
It happens more and more as the football ground landscape becomes very similar
There is always very favourable comments by the away visitors, proper ground, proper club all that sort of stuff
I reckon it would be away fans favourite ground
And there’s us saying we should knock it down. It’s an absolute joke
There be an outcry from Villa fans if that ever happened and not only Villa fans
It would be like knocking down Hever Castle because it isn’t roomy enough and the toilets need attention
I’ve been to most of the new grounds They are all nice, but there’s something missing
Let’s not become the local counsellors of the 60’s and 70’s knocking down precious buildings and building shit that won’t last in its place
Take the Villa away from Villa Park and you take the heart out of the club
Agree John, It's bad enough that we demolished the old Trinity stand in it's entirety to make way for the current one. It isn't exactly terrible but with a bit of architectural ingenuity we could have retained a lot of the old one to keep more of the essence of what Villa Park is to us and the footballing world. Football is an important part of our culture to the country and ironically as we approach our 150th year of existence we have actual Villa fans talking about moving or demolishing just to satisfy our need for increased capacity. I don't get it. Yes, we need some increased capacity and improvements none of which are insurmountable. Resolve issues and work towards that should be everyone's aim. We are a unique football club in that we have a unique ground in a unique location not that far from the center of Birmingham. It's the envy of others and should be cherished by us all.
Spot on, it would be utter madness to leave Villa Park.
Post by: Rico on July 06, 2023, 12:16:27 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 12:19:35 PM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
Have you been reading the thread? Or anything else about the ground since last night?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 06, 2023, 12:20:44 PM
One thing I’ve noticed while a lot of clubs have moved to new grounds, how much the away fans like and appreciate Villa Park and the atmosphere of a traditional club
It happens more and more as the football ground landscape becomes very similar
There is always very favourable comments by the away visitors, proper ground, proper club all that sort of stuff
I reckon it would be away fans favourite ground
And there’s us saying we should knock it down. It’s an absolute joke
There be an outcry from Villa fans if that ever happened and not only Villa fans
It would be like knocking down Hever Castle because it isn’t roomy enough and the toilets need attention
I’ve been to most of the new grounds They are all nice, but there’s something missing
Let’s not become the local counsellors of the 60’s and 70’s knocking down precious buildings and building shit that won’t last in its place
Take the Villa away from Villa Park and you take the heart out of the club
Agree John, It's bad enough that we demolished the old Trinity stand in it's entirety to make way for the current one. It isn't exactly terrible but with a bit of architectural ingenuity we could have retained a lot of the old one to keep more of the essence of what Villa Park is to us and the footballing world. Football is an important part of our culture to the country and ironically as we approach our 150th year of existence we have actual Villa fans talking about moving or demolishing just to satisfy our need for increased capacity. I don't get it. Yes, we need some increased capacity and improvements none of which are insurmountable. Resolve issues and work towards that should be everyone's aim. We are a unique football club in that we have a unique ground in a unique location not that far from the center of Birmingham. It's the envy of others and should be cherished by us all.
Spot on, it would be utter madness to leave Villa Park.
Agree 110%.
Post by: Rico on July 06, 2023, 12:23:38 PM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
Have you been reading the thread? Or anything else about the ground since last night?
Yes.
Post by: jon collett on July 06, 2023, 12:39:35 PM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
That stand has never really been fit for purpose. There was no architect and the then stadium manager went to Jewson and built it. the lower tier had to be completely rebuilt due to asbestos and the upper tier has the most narrow concourses imaginable. It was always likely to be rebuilt at some point because of the quality.
Post by: LeeB on July 06, 2023, 12:53:24 PM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
That stand has never really been fit for purpose. There was no architect and the then stadium manager went to Jewson and built it. the lower tier had to be completely rebuilt due to asbestos and the upper tier has the most narrow concourses imaginable. It was always likely to be rebuilt at some point because of the quality.
Fully agreed
Post by: AV82EC on July 06, 2023, 12:54:45 PM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
That stand has never really been fit for purpose. There was no architect and the then stadium manager went to Jewson and built it. the lower tier had to be completely rebuilt due to asbestos and the upper tier has the most narrow concourses imaginable. It was always likely to be rebuilt at some point because of the quality.
Fully agreed
It’s a fitting monument to the man who’s name is on its side.
Post by: London Villan on July 06, 2023, 01:07:37 PM
New buildings usually start off as a grand palace with lots of innovation and cutting edge ideas, and end up as a square box. Form follows function.Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Ironic that the original Trinity broke all of those rules with Rinder’s “money no object” approach to the architecture.
However, it almost bankrupted the club and cost Rinder his job.
The Villa Live (on the cheap) isn't a bad option and taps into a very popular trend of the post-industrial type venue that are springing up everywhere. The question is why have we chosen the cheaper, less adaptable option.
Post by: LeeB on July 06, 2023, 01:07:53 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 06, 2023, 01:13:20 PM
New buildings usually start off as a grand palace with lots of innovation and cutting edge ideas, and end up as a square box. Form follows function.Id imagine there will outdoor benches and marquees, to give it the full urban streetfood feel.
Be interesting to see how value engineered the new stand is too.
Sorry to be a bit thick but I’m not familiar with term value engineered, any chance of a translation that my old brain will understand.
Starts off with all bells and whistles, costs cut as it goes along.
Ironic that the original Trinity broke all of those rules with Rinder’s “money no object” approach to the architecture.
However, it almost bankrupted the club and cost Rinder his job.
"Finance is important, but we should never forget that we are not talking about a mere business. This is the Aston Villa football club, and it deserves nothing short of the best"
Post by: Risso on July 06, 2023, 01:17:27 PM
The Villa Live (on the cheap) isn't a bad option and taps into a very popular trend of the post-industrial type venue that are springing up everywhere. The question is why have we chosen the cheaper, less adaptable option.
The excuse seems to be that it could be done quicker, but I don't buy that. Sometimes sticking up a brand new building that's been planned can be quicker than trying to retrofit an existing old building.
It just seems very odd that they've gone to the trouble of having ambitious plans drawn up, submitted them, had them approved, and are now massively scaling back.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 06, 2023, 01:28:07 PM
Admittedly, it's nothing special, but I don't know, I just like walking alongside it.
Don't like sitting in it, however, and have only ever done so twice. 0-0 against Liverpool when Staunton got sent off for them, and that delayed kickoff Worthington Cup game, also against that horrid lot when we lost 4-3.
I think that pinhead, diving ****** Steven scored that day. ******.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2023, 01:36:44 PM
I quite like the outside of the Doug Ellis.I think aesthetically it's acceptable. The view sitting in it is also very good - I tend to choose it ahead of Trinity upper if I ever need to move from my ST seat - as it's pretty steep and close to the pitch. The back of house facilities in the upper are an absolute disgrace though. It's almost impossible to take a piss at half time, let alone buy a pint. The queue for the women's w/c is simply unacceptable.
Admittedly, it's nothing special, but I don't know, I just like walking alongside it.
Don't like sitting in it, however, and have only ever done so twice. 0-0 against Liverpool when Staunton got sent off for them, and that delayed kickoff Worthington Cup game, also against that horrid lot when we lost 4-3.
I think that pinhead, diving ****** Steven scored that day. ******.
I'm surprised when I hear comments like above about away fans liking VP. I imagine any who have sat in the Witton Upper think it's awful too.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 06, 2023, 01:37:54 PM
Delaying Villa Live, I mean.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 06, 2023, 01:39:01 PM
I quite like the outside of the Doug Ellis.I think aesthetically it's acceptable. The view sitting in it is also very good - I tend to choose it ahead of Trinity upper if I ever need to move from my ST seat - as it's pretty steep and close to the pitch. The back of house facilities in the upper are an absolute disgrace though. It's almost impossible to take a piss at half time, let alone buy a pint. The queue for the women's w/c is simply unacceptable.
Admittedly, it's nothing special, but I don't know, I just like walking alongside it.
Don't like sitting in it, however, and have only ever done so twice. 0-0 against Liverpool when Staunton got sent off for them, and that delayed kickoff Worthington Cup game, also against that horrid lot when we lost 4-3.
I think that pinhead, diving ****** Steven scored that day. ******.
I'm surprised when I hear comments like above about away fans liking VP. I imagine any who have sat in the Witton Upper think it's awful too.
Yep.
It is dangerously cramped in the concourse and really not up to the job of a modern stadium.
Post by: rob_bridge on July 06, 2023, 01:44:29 PM
One thing I’ve noticed while a lot of clubs have moved to new grounds, how much the away fans like and appreciate Villa Park and the atmosphere of a traditional club
It happens more and more as the football ground landscape becomes very similar
There is always very favourable comments by the away visitors, proper ground, proper club all that sort of stuff
I reckon it would be away fans favourite ground
And there’s us saying we should knock it down. It’s an absolute joke
There be an outcry from Villa fans if that ever happened and not only Villa fans
It would be like knocking down Hever Castle because it isn’t roomy enough and the toilets need attention
I’ve been to most of the new grounds They are all nice, but there’s something missing
Let’s not become the local counsellors of the 60’s and 70’s knocking down precious buildings and building shit that won’t last in its place
Take the Villa away from Villa Park and you take the heart out of the club
There is a big difference between a Football Ground and a Stadium.
Wembley is a stadium, Old Trafford is a stadium, the Emirates is a stadium, Amsterdam arena etc..
Villa Park is a Football Ground. There are none of such quality and history to match it. The pretenders are gone, going or as good as dead - Highbury, WHL, Goodison, Hillsbrough etc...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on July 06, 2023, 01:51:48 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 01:59:46 PM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
Have you been reading the thread? Or anything else about the ground since last night?
Yes.
In that case I’m surprised that news of us demolishing and rebuilding the Witton Lane stand and going to 60k capacity appears to have passed you by.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 06, 2023, 02:14:52 PM
It’s not really massively scaling back though is it?
Delaying Villa Live, I mean.
Yes I wonder if they consider the priority is sorting the Witton lane some how rather than Villa Live
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 06, 2023, 02:20:57 PM
VP is massively popular with fans of other clubs, based on the groups i'm in that are about grounds it's a contender for most popular in the country. That's even allowing for those that say the upper concourses are shit, as are apparently the views if you're in the top corner. I don't think a lot of us realise just how high an esteem it's held in by others.
Mainly because they win here.
Post by: AV82EC on July 06, 2023, 02:22:35 PM
VP is massively popular with fans of other clubs, based on the groups i'm in that are about grounds it's a contender for most popular in the country. That's even allowing for those that say the upper concourses are shit, as are apparently the views if you're in the top corner. I don't think a lot of us realise just how high an esteem it's held in by others.
Mainly because they win here.
Soon to be a thing of the past.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 06, 2023, 02:24:05 PM
VP is massively popular with fans of other clubs, based on the groups i'm in that are about grounds it's a contender for most popular in the country. That's even allowing for those that say the upper concourses are shit, as are apparently the views if you're in the top corner. I don't think a lot of us realise just how high an esteem it's held in by others.
Mainly because they win here.
well that is about to change Sir !!! ( fingers and toes crossed )
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2023, 02:26:47 PM
No I think that's a red herring. I can't just see them starting on the Witton for at least 10 years, there's just too many planning / housing issues to sort out.It’s not really massively scaling back though is it?
Delaying Villa Live, I mean.
Yes I wonder if they consider the priority is sorting the Witton lane some how rather than Villa Live
Post by: Flin5tone on July 06, 2023, 02:30:16 PM
What an absolute shambles
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 06, 2023, 02:44:19 PM
The new 'warehouse' (we're a football club not some sort of dance venue in digbeth) on the plan pictures I've seen has the current/old/not so sure 'shield' plastered all over it.
What an absolute shambles
[/quote
Should we get rid of the Holte Pub that we own then ?
Post by: Risso on July 06, 2023, 02:47:30 PM
It’s not really massively scaling back though is it?
Delaying Villa Live, I mean.
Perhaps not, as obviously getting the stand right and the increased capacity is the main thing. I just think it's disappointing, and combined with the badge nonsense it all just looks a bit amateur and small time.
Post by: Richard E on July 06, 2023, 02:53:07 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 06, 2023, 02:56:17 PM
I initially thought it said ‘Whorehouse’, which clearly says more about me than it does about Aston Villa FC
My god it would then be 24 - 7 venue !!
Post by: DB on July 06, 2023, 03:24:10 PM
Post by: boutrosboutrosgnarly on July 06, 2023, 03:39:25 PM
The new 'warehouse' (we're a football club not some sort of dance venue in digbeth) on the plan pictures I've seen has the current/old/not so sure 'shield' plastered all over it.Don't bite, ignore this tedious troll
What an absolute shambles
[/quote
Should we get rid of the Holte Pub that we own then ?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 06, 2023, 03:44:05 PM
The new 'warehouse' (we're a football club not some sort of dance venue in digbeth) on the plan pictures I've seen has the current/old/not so sure 'shield' plastered all over it.
Time will tell, hopefully the vibe is more Hacienda than Ocado Fulfilment Centre.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 06, 2023, 03:59:47 PM
I initially thought it said ‘Whorehouse’, which clearly says more about me than it does about Aston Villa FC
I did think to myself ‘I wonder how long before it’s nicknamed the whorehouse’
Post by: The Edge on July 06, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 06, 2023, 04:45:28 PM
Meanwhile a 23,500 venue is just being built next to the etihad. I find it quite depressing all this. It's like Deadly is in charge of it.Not going to change the football fan experience though. The Man City owners may be part investors, but their money is limitless and I don't know if any income can form part of their FFP accounting?
Post by: TheMalandro on July 06, 2023, 04:57:49 PM
VP is massively popular with fans of other clubs, based on the groups i'm in that are about grounds it's a contender for most popular in the country. That's even allowing for those that say the upper concourses are shit, as are apparently the views if you're in the top corner. I don't think a lot of us realise just how high an esteem it's held in by others.
Mainly because they win here.
Soon to be a thing of the past.
Have you news on a new stadium?
Post by: Flin5tone on July 06, 2023, 05:17:27 PM
We need the new chap to actually tell us what's going on . Only Villa could mess up on this. Thought we'd turned a corner but that ridiculous crap shield is still being used. We had a VOTE on this
It seems like we're penny pinching
Post by: The Edge on July 06, 2023, 05:22:16 PM
I would of thought the bars and eateries will be open on match days if so it will definitely improve the match day experience. It just feels like other clubs are powering ahead with huge plans while we seem to be dragging our feet and looking to cut costs.Meanwhile a 23,500 venue is just being built next to the etihad. I find it quite depressing all this. It's like Deadly is in charge of it.Not going to change the football fan experience though. The Man City owners may be part investors, but their money is limitless and I don't know if any income can form part of their FFP accounting?
Post by: Clampy on July 06, 2023, 05:22:45 PM
Post by: Des Little on July 06, 2023, 05:40:36 PM
Post by: Nev on July 06, 2023, 06:02:17 PM
Post by: Billy Walker on July 06, 2023, 06:03:30 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 06, 2023, 06:14:40 PM
I've never been convinced, we struggled to sell tickets for that bike thing last week because we are not a City Centre/decent location for public transport. The Holte Suite does OK for corporate events and exhibitions but beyond that I can't see it myself. As I said earlier, concentrate on the ground and have temporary hospitality outside for games and extend it for concerts and other events.
With regards facilities for the Witton Lane . I wonder if we could close the street off and had food and drink on the road say 1 pm until 5 . It would alleviate some of the pressure in the Stand
Post by: The Edge on July 06, 2023, 06:42:22 PM
I think it has decent potential for being a live gig venue for "smaller" artists/productions, a bit like the AV Leisure Centre was, back in the day.I agree. There's huge appetite for live music and the transport would not be an issue for a venue of that size. Witton and Aston stations would be ideal. It's not just live music either. There's boxing events and conferences and many other events which are currently held at The Holte Suite which doesn't have to generate revenue to survive as it's part of the main structure of the ground.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 06, 2023, 06:49:12 PM
It'd then - if it was going to be any good - have to be designed and built to hold music events, ie some sort of accoustic measures.
It's much more complex than just booking a few bands up.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 07:14:37 PM
I think it has decent potential for being a live gig venue for "smaller" artists/productions, a bit like the AV Leisure Centre was, back in the day.I agree. There's huge appetite for live music and the transport would not be an issue for a venue of that size. Witton and Aston stations would be ideal. It's not just live music either. There's boxing events and conferences and many other events which are currently held at The Holte Suite which doesn't have to generate revenue to survive as it's part of the main structure of the ground.
I don’t see the point of building a new venue with the aim of taking away the events at the Holte Suite. I was invited to the boxing there once, not really my thing but the missus and I quite enjoyed it and the venue was perfectly adequate.
Post by: Villan82 on July 06, 2023, 07:19:24 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 06, 2023, 07:22:53 PM
I've never been convinced, we struggled to sell tickets for that bike thing last week because we are not a City Centre/decent location for public transport. The Holte Suite does OK for corporate events and exhibitions but beyond that I can't see it myself. As I said earlier, concentrate on the ground and have temporary hospitality outside for games and extend it for concerts and other events.
With regards facilities for the Witton Lane . I wonder if we could close the street off and had food and drink on the road say 1 pm until 5 . It would alleviate some of the pressure in the Stand
We should expand what we currently do with street food outlets at the back of the North Stand, work with Digbeth Dining Club to get them there more often.
You'd get much better food and service from those guys than you will internal food outlets staffed by minimum wage day-workers who have no idea what they're doing.
If we could get them to remain after the match, and encouraged people to stay to eat and drink, that would also contribute to ameliorating the problem with the post match transport.
Post by: john e on July 06, 2023, 07:27:57 PM
it’s being used for professional Darts and Snooker televised matches and other event type stuff
I don’t know why I’m telling you this actually and probably has got nothing to do with anything apart from it’s near me so I know a bit about it and I just wanted to feel useful to the debate
Post by: LeeB on July 06, 2023, 07:30:21 PM
Meanwhile a 23,500 venue is just being built next to the etihad. I find it quite depressing all this. It's like Deadly is in charge of it.
Is that so they can look like they've got a full house midweek?
Post by: LeeB on July 06, 2023, 07:32:00 PM
You can't just build Villa Live on that location and then decide you're going to use it for live music - that requires licensing, and to be honest, I reckon the council would be of the opinion the local residents get enough disturbance from the ground as it is.
It'd then - if it was going to be any good - have to be designed and built to hold music events, ie some sort of accoustic measures.
It's much more complex than just booking a few bands up.
Yeah, you might get Bobbie Gillespie moving in nearby then moaning, the ******
Post by: Des Little on July 06, 2023, 07:32:30 PM
I've never been convinced, we struggled to sell tickets for that bike thing last week because we are not a City Centre/decent location for public transport. The Holte Suite does OK for corporate events and exhibitions but beyond that I can't see it myself. As I said earlier, concentrate on the ground and have temporary hospitality outside for games and extend it for concerts and other events.
With regards facilities for the Witton Lane . I wonder if we could close the street off and had food and drink on the road say 1 pm until 5 . It would alleviate some of the pressure in the Stand
We should expand what we currently do with street food outlets at the back of the North Stand, work with Digbeth Dining Club to get them there more often.
You'd get much better food and service from those guys than you will internal food outlets staffed by minimum wage day-workers who have no idea what they're doing.
If we could get them to remain after the match, and encouraged people to stay to eat and drink, that would also contribute to ameliorating the problem with the post match transport.
I agree. Taking the Villa Village building down will create even more space for independent food outlets and bars. We’ll definitely see how much appetite there is for such a venue then, if you pardon the shit pun.
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 06, 2023, 07:52:57 PM
With less pubs in the area and being on the door step on match days it might be well attended especially if the service is up to scratchI've never been convinced, we struggled to sell tickets for that bike thing last week because we are not a City Centre/decent location for public transport. The Holte Suite does OK for corporate events and exhibitions but beyond that I can't see it myself. As I said earlier, concentrate on the ground and have temporary hospitality outside for games and extend it for concerts and other events.
With regards facilities for the Witton Lane . I wonder if we could close the street off and had food and drink on the road say 1 pm until 5 . It would alleviate some of the pressure in the Stand
We should expand what we currently do with street food outlets at the back of the North Stand, work with Digbeth Dining Club to get them there more often.
You'd get much better food and service from those guys than you will internal food outlets staffed by minimum wage day-workers who have no idea what they're doing.
If we could get them to remain after the match, and encouraged people to stay to eat and drink, that would also contribute to ameliorating the problem with the post match transport.
I agree. Taking the Villa Village building down will create even more space for independent food outlets and bars. We’ll definitely see how much appetite there is for such a venue then, if you pardon the shit pun.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 06, 2023, 08:07:51 PM
With less pubs in the area and being on the door step on match days it might be well attended especially if the service is up to scratchI've never been convinced, we struggled to sell tickets for that bike thing last week because we are not a City Centre/decent location for public transport. The Holte Suite does OK for corporate events and exhibitions but beyond that I can't see it myself. As I said earlier, concentrate on the ground and have temporary hospitality outside for games and extend it for concerts and other events.
With regards facilities for the Witton Lane . I wonder if we could close the street off and had food and drink on the road say 1 pm until 5 . It would alleviate some of the pressure in the Stand
We should expand what we currently do with street food outlets at the back of the North Stand, work with Digbeth Dining Club to get them there more often.
You'd get much better food and service from those guys than you will internal food outlets staffed by minimum wage day-workers who have no idea what they're doing.
If we could get them to remain after the match, and encouraged people to stay to eat and drink, that would also contribute to ameliorating the problem with the post match transport.
I agree. Taking the Villa Village building down will create even more space for independent food outlets and bars. We’ll definitely see how much appetite there is for such a venue then, if you pardon the shit pun.
Also, with the Digbeth Dining Club / whichever street food outlets on site, those guys work entirely on the basis of doing a day in one place, a day in another and so on - that suits a venue that only gets used 20 odd times a year.
They're more set up for it, the product is better and it's way more interesting than some giant catering conglomerate with their day labourers serving up slop, slowly.
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 06, 2023, 08:56:59 PM
Post by: AV82EC on July 06, 2023, 09:03:40 PM
Is that Digbeth Dining Club/street food stuff particularly popular round the ground? I know there are always queued but is that because of the limited timescale or is it genuinely worth their while?
The fact they come back week after week and the prices they charge I’d suggest it’s well worth their while.
I’ll mention this for the umpteenth time again as we’re going round this topic, the fan zone area outside the Trinity would be much better located on the Holte Car Park. Yes some drivers would be inconvenienced and have to be relocated but the revenue/atmos/vibe having it there would be fantastic. Me and a mate have been talking about this for about 10 years and we don’t seem any closer.
Post by: Dogtanian on July 06, 2023, 09:14:00 PM
I think it has decent potential for being a live gig venue for "smaller" artists/productions, a bit like the AV Leisure Centre was, back in the day.I agree. There's huge appetite for live music and the transport would not be an issue for a venue of that size. Witton and Aston stations would be ideal. It's not just live music either. There's boxing events and conferences and many other events which are currently held at The Holte Suite which doesn't have to generate revenue to survive as it's part of the main structure of the ground.
Didn’t there used to be basketball at Aston Villa Leisure Centre too?
Post by: Exeter 77 on July 06, 2023, 09:26:50 PM
Birmingham BulletsI think it has decent potential for being a live gig venue for "smaller" artists/productions, a bit like the AV Leisure Centre was, back in the day.I agree. There's huge appetite for live music and the transport would not be an issue for a venue of that size. Witton and Aston stations would be ideal. It's not just live music either. There's boxing events and conferences and many other events which are currently held at The Holte Suite which doesn't have to generate revenue to survive as it's part of the main structure of the ground.
Didn’t there used to be basketball at Aston Villa Leisure Centre too?
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 06, 2023, 09:33:00 PM
Is that Digbeth Dining Club/street food stuff particularly popular round the ground? I know there are always queued but is that because of the limited timescale or is it genuinely worth their while?
The fact they come back week after week and the prices they charge I’d suggest it’s well worth their while.
I’ll mention this for the umpteenth time again as we’re going round this topic, the fan zone area outside the Trinity would be much better located on the Holte Car Park. Yes some drivers would be inconvenienced and have to be relocated but the revenue/atmos/vibe having it there would be fantastic. Me and a mate have been talking about this for about 10 years and we don’t seem any closer.
The reason I asked is that last time I was there, there seemed fewer stalls. As for the Holte car park, I can't imagine Christian 'A bar in every broom cupboard' Purslow wouldn't have looked at its viability.
Post by: Nev on July 06, 2023, 09:40:01 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 09:47:03 PM
Post by: paul_e on July 06, 2023, 09:56:17 PM
I used to love Digbeth Dining Club. Is it still going or has it moved to Hockley Social? The last time I went to HS there were a few DDC stalls. Hockley Social is ace as well
HS is run by the same people, I think they've got a sites in Longbridge and Cov now but don't run in Digbeth any more.
Post by: dekko on July 06, 2023, 09:57:13 PM
I used to love Digbeth Dining Club. Is it still going or has it moved to Hockley Social? The last time I went to HS there were a few DDC stalls. Hockley Social is ace as well
Hockley Social is run by Digbeth Dining Club. They've also got Herbert's Yard in Longbridge and Coventry Dining Club.
They were doing a touring thing for a while (eg 1 off Bromsgrove Dining Club, Redditch Dining Club etc) but not sure if thats still on.
Post by: Ads on July 06, 2023, 11:25:49 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 06, 2023, 11:53:07 PM
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on July 07, 2023, 12:56:18 AM
Post by: Rico on July 07, 2023, 05:40:34 AM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
Have you been reading the thread? Or anything else about the ground since last night?
Yes.
In that case I’m surprised that news of us demolishing and rebuilding the Witton Lane stand and going to 60k capacity appears to have passed you by.
I'm not being facetious but the news of us knocking down the Doug Ellis does seem to have past me by. Can you link to it please? I'd be interested to read about it thanks
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 07, 2023, 07:22:12 AM
It seems to me that the big stumbling block to increasing the capacity past 52k is the Doug Ellis. The question for right now imo is do we need a larger capacity? If in say ten years or so we are selling out at 52k then fair enough, but again it's begs the question what could be done to improve or increase the capacity of that stand considering the way it is hemmed in by the road, and the local residents right to light.
Have you been reading the thread? Or anything else about the ground since last night?
Yes.
In that case I’m surprised that news of us demolishing and rebuilding the Witton Lane stand and going to 60k capacity appears to have passed you by.
I'm not being facetious but the news of us knocking down the Doug Ellis does seem to have past me by. Can you link to it please? I'd be interested to read about it thanks
Apologies for my tone mate. After listening to the MOMS podcast last night it appears that some who went to the consultation got a bit carried away and I took my cue from them, probably in part because it sounded so exciting.
Sounds like the Witton Lane will be coming down, but not as quickly as some suggested. There were reports of 60k capacity by 2028 or 2031, but MOMS seem to think it might be longer term than that.
The podcast gave a pretty good overview if you can access it. Here’s a Twitter exchange I had with Chris from MOMS:
https://twitter.com/stephenpennell2/status/1677125559430656002?s=46&t=mIHQsbmXlotxpG7TEzRhpA
Post by: The Edge on July 07, 2023, 08:55:22 AM
The Holte Suite isn't a stand alone venue as such doesn't need to be financially viable. It's primary function is matchday amenities. All the events currently held there can be move to any new venue at the other end of the ground. I just think we should be moving on from re-inventing an old factory for the umpteenth time and building a brand new state of the art venue fit for our club. If Villa Park is to keep it's status as one of the top venues in the country it's vital imo.I think it has decent potential for being a live gig venue for "smaller" artists/productions, a bit like the AV Leisure Centre was, back in the day.I agree. There's huge appetite for live music and the transport would not be an issue for a venue of that size. Witton and Aston stations would be ideal. It's not just live music either. There's boxing events and conferences and many other events which are currently held at The Holte Suite which doesn't have to generate revenue to survive as it's part of the main structure of the ground.
I don’t see the point of building a new venue with the aim of taking away the events at the Holte Suite. I was invited to the boxing there once, not really my thing but the missus and I quite enjoyed it and the venue was perfectly adequate.
Post by: Risso on July 07, 2023, 08:59:20 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 07, 2023, 09:03:04 AM
Post by: London Villan on July 07, 2023, 09:03:25 AM
Post by: Axl Rose on July 07, 2023, 09:03:29 AM
Well said. The 'reinventing an old factory' line is spot on. I'm sick of seeing that crap here in Japan.
Villa Park deserves better.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 07, 2023, 09:11:20 AM
Post by: Risso on July 07, 2023, 09:16:32 AM
Apparently Man City have a Villa Live type facility and it’s a bit of a flop.
Don't recall seeing anything in the immediate vicinity when I was there last season mate. I mean, the overall site for everything connected to them is enormous, but all I can remember in the immediate stadium area is the club shop and the tennis/squash arenas.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 07, 2023, 09:19:07 AM
It adds an extra venue to the Holte Suite (which is always full before a game anyway) and is a lot more visible. I imagine a lot of non Holte End fans wouldn't even realise it existed.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 07, 2023, 09:21:21 AM
Yet somebody above refers to how brilliant Hockley Social club is, and it's exactly that.
That's fair enough. I've never heard of Hockley Social Club, and don't know what it is, so can't really comment.
I was thinking more of the identikit/old factory/warehouse type of thing that's been done to death. Everywhere. If that's what people generally like, fair dos
I'm sure Villa will do a good job of the whole thing, whatever happens.
Post by: London Villan on July 07, 2023, 09:23:51 AM
Post by: Chris Smith on July 07, 2023, 09:41:23 AM
To be fair Hockley Social has worse transport links than Villa Park - but I still think it would ba a tough sell to get people to Witton on a non-matchday, midweek night for a streetfood burger or a gig...
The old Villa leisure centre used to put on gigs but that was a sideline rather than its core business.
Post by: Toronto Villa on July 07, 2023, 09:44:44 AM
Latest Aston Villa news as the club prepare to submit revised plans for phase one of the redevelopment of Villa Park
By John Townley
Aston Villa correspondent
7 JUL 2023
Aston Villa presented their revised plans for phase one of the redevelopment of Villa Park during a public consultation this week, following a review of the original proposed scheme.
Club owners Nassef Sawiris and Wes Edens are fully committed to delivering a plan which will establish Villa Park as a world-class sporting and entertainment destination in the coming years, but after planning approval was granted by Birmingham City Council in December 2022, Villa intend to make a modest number of changes to their proposals.
Here are the takeaways from the club's public consultation, which was held at Villa Park...
NORTH STAND REBUILD
In April 2022, former CEO Christian Purslow announced the club’s plans to redevelop Villa Park across several phases. Phase one centres around a complete rebuild of the North Stand and a construction of a much larger structure to house over 7,300 extra seats to take Villa Park’s capacity beyond 50,000.
In November, Villa Park was shortlisted in the UK and Ireland's bid to host the UEFA EURO 2028 Championship, a month before Villa were then granted planning permission for the expansion of their stadium. The club plans to demolish the North Stand following the Foo Fighters gig at Villa Park on Thursday, June 27, 2024.
Prior to the stand being demolished, up to seven months of preparation is needed to divert new drains, high voltage electrics and matchday safety systems, while hundreds of cables will also need to be replaced for broadcasting. It’s a huge undertaking before Villa can even begin building a completely new stand.
Knocking the stand down is viewed as the most efficient way to deliver a new North Stand, instead of building it behind the current structure, like other clubs have done across England in recent years. Building a new stand behind the current North Stand would prevent construction workers from accessing key areas of the build.
The end bay of the Trinity Road Stand, which is closest to the North Stand, will also be demolished for structural reasons. Villa are planning to merge the new North Stand with the Trinity Road Stand and the Doug Ellis Stand.
Villa anticipate that the new North Stand will be built by the end of May 2026, meaning that during the 2024/25 and 2025/26 seasons, no fans will be housed behind the goal opposite the Holte End. If the UK and Ireland's bid to host UEFA EURO 2028 is successful, then the new North Stand must be complete by the end of May 2026 deadline to comply with UEFA regulations.
Villa will find out in September if their home, Villa Park, will host the European Championships as the stadium is one of ten arenas which have been put forwards as venues. Others include Wembley, Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, St James’ Park in Newcastle and Hampden Park in Glasgow.
And should the UK and Ireland’s bid be successful, leader of Birmingham City Council John Cotton believes it will boost the local economy by £117 million. Speaking inside the council chamber last month, Cllr Cotton said of Villa Park’s importance in hosting the European Championships in five years’ time: “I’m delighted Villa Park and the city of Birmingham have been selected by the FA to be a stadium and a host city for the UK and Ireland joint bid to host the UEFA men’s Euro 2028 tournament.
“If this bid is successful then we can expect to see tens of thousands of visitors come to this city as we host matches at the tournament. That’s a boost to our economy and, again, a further enhancement to our reputation as an international city. An early estimation of the impact of being a host city is £117.1 million which will provide an absolutely huge boost to our economy.”
ADAPTATIONS TO NORTH STAND PLANNING APPLICATION
Following a review of the original scheme, Villa now intend to accommodate the club shop and a new sports bar café into the new North Stand, which therefore requires some small design changes to the proposed new North Stand elevations, and the application will be submitted this month.
The new sports bar will be located where the North Stand merges with the Trinity Road Stand. The club plans for it to sit above the tunnel, where supporters can look down on players and get a sneak peak of preparations for the match. On a matchday, it will be used as a hospitality experience, but it will remain open to the public to be used as a sports bar a other times of the week. To meet EURO 2028 regulations, the player's area - which is also located in this part of the stadium - will be upgraded too.
Currently, there are an unnecessary amount of vomitories where the North Stand merges with the Trinity Road Stand. The team designing the new-look stand will start ‘project hoover’ to clean up what is viewed as wasted space in this area of the stadium. The ‘bowl’ design will provide a better, more dense atmosphere instead.
There will also be a jumbo screen where the North Stand meets the Trinity Road Stand, instead of it being on the opposite side.
SHOT-TERM AND LONG-TERM TRANSPORT SOLUTIONS
The club are working tirelessly in a bid to improve transport links around Villa Park. Witton station, which is among the closest to a stadium in the Premier League, was labelled “not fit for purpose” by Purslow given the lack of trains and carriages put on for fans on matchdays.
It’s understood Villa are awaiting funding from the West Midlands Combined Authority which, in 2021, funded the £30million redevelopment of Perry Barr railway station ahead of the Commonwealth Games.
Speaking at Birmingham City Council ’s full meeting last month (June 13), councillor Lee Marsham (Nechells, Lab) put pressure on Mayor of the West Midlands, Andy Street, to stump up the millions needed to upgrade Witton Station in line with Villa’s grand plans to improve their stadium in the months and years to come.
In response, Cllr Cotton said: “Now, clearly we want visitors to have the best possible experience so improvements to Witton Station are important, not just for this tournament but for the local community and for Villa fans who are travelling for games in the future. Aston Villa is one of the city’s key anchor institutions and I met with the club officials just last week, together with the deputy leader, to discuss not just this bid but their plans moving forward. I’ve tasked officers to work closely with Aston Villa to that effect.”
Villa are receiving more complaints from fans and local residents about transport than any other issue. There are long-term and short-term solutions to dealing with the problems which the redevelopment of Villa Park faces.
It will take some time for Villa to see the benefits of their hard work in negotiations with train operators, with a lack of carriages being a key cause of frustration after a matchday. Plans are in place for Witton station to be dramatically improved, but the same issues will remain unless trains are running to and from the station more frequently.
Last season, on an average matchday, less than three trains arrived per hour, which is a major issue. There needs to be more trains coming in and out of New Street, and these plans could take years to push through.
Villa wants Witton station to be a hub for transport to an active lifestyle destination, which is Villa Park and its surrounding environment. The club are in constant dialogue with politicians and are lobbying at government level to find progress. There is a clear regenerative case to improve Witton station, as it will have a positive impact on the local community, even if it will be used mainly on matchdays.
In May, Villa provided additional transport to the final Premier League fixture of the season against Brighton at Villa Park. A pre-match shuttle service ran from Dudley Street, near New Street Station, with buses departing at 10-minute intervals. The buses dropped fans near Aston train station, leaving supporters with a five minute walk to the stadium. Post-match suttles then ran from Grosvenor Road back to Dudley Street, with each journey costing £5.
The one-off shuttle test, which wasn’t majorly publicised at the time, attracted over 350 supporters. This is one of several short-term strategies the club could use more frequently moving forward.
Villa committed to appointing a dedicated advisor to deal with transport concerns in their planning application for phase one of the redevelopment of Villa Park. Their presence will be helpful in the coming months instead of bolting on a serious amount of work on to other employees working on the scheme.
The transport advisor has drawn up a number of short-term opportunities to ease the strain on transport problems. The main objective is to push people ‘away from the madness’ after full-time.
Around 3,000 off-street car spaces from businesses, schools and industrial estates have been located outside the immediate vicinity of Villa Park, between a 10 to 20 minute walk away from the stadium. Villa plan to encourage owners of those car parks to open up on a matchday, as they are assets that can relieve much of the congestion after games.
Villa also intends to consult local residents over the potential of using these controlled parking zones. Another reason for major disruption after full-time is the clog of taxis and Ubers, located too close to the stadium.
Having designated pick-up points for taxis and Ubers to park will limit the congestion felt in the immediate environment around Villa Park. Utilising more coaches to transport home fans is another strategy, with there being many clusters of fan groups around Birmingham and beyond.
The exciting plans to make Villa Park an active lifestyle destination also intends to keep supporters after games, which will further reduce the amount of traffic on roads and the number of supporters trying to catch the first train back home.
The club are employing a ‘one per cent’ plan, whereby, if one per cent of the 50,000 who watch the match use the train, and another one per cent take the bus, and so on, it'll quickly add up to a large number of people using different methods of transport which will ultimately reduce the problems currently felt on a matchday.
Mayor Mr Street previously spoke to BirminghamLive about the issues Villa supporters have been having involving the congested road and rail networks. He said: “The wonderful thing is that the club is working with the city to look at the whole area around Villa Park. But I would like to see more people come via public transport. That’s the easiest way as the ground gets bigger.
“It’s even more important that is done; [Witton] station and indeed Aston. That’s the real solution [to the travel problems]." He added: “We’re also going to need to think about car parking in the total travel plan for the ground at 50,000 and, obviously, the wonderful aspiration for this to be a Euro 2028 venue as well. We will need to think about those things. But Witton station is the No.1 priority.”
'THE WAREHOUSE' AND SURROUNDING AREA
Villa's latest redevelopment plan seeks to retain and revitalise the academy/stumps building to create a new multi-use experience and enhanced matchday and event fan zone. This will involve a full refurbishment to improve the visual appearance of the building, introducing community and commercial activities as well as a new home for the club's administrative functions, which will be moved out of the North Stand.
A separate new planning application for the renovation of the existing academy/stumps building will be sent this month. Villa insist that the vision for Villa Live as an active lifestyle destination remains unchanged and their consented permission for the new building will stay active for 'us to deliver in the future'.
Their new plans will enable them to deliver many of the benefits of Villa Live, however, in a shorter timescale whilst ensuring their plans remain sustainable, and of high quality and maintain their commitment and benefits to the local community.
The academy/stumps building will be named the ‘The Warehouse’, which will house a bar, big screen zone, food and beverage courtyard and a multi-use event floor. A microbrewery will also be installed in this facility.
The Warehouse can be converted for community events, like recruitment fairs or for the use of school children. The building will also be capable of hosting indoor football events.
Outside and next to The Warehouse, two new multi-use sports courts will be built for the public to enjoy all year for free. The large car park outside the North Stand will also be improved.
This area outside the North Stand serves as a huge opportunity to create a vibrant atmosphere on a matchday and for other events. Construction on the project will take roughly six months to complete, and the club would like it to be open for the start of EURO 2024, although this is not promised at this stage. Supporters could come and enjoy the tournament and Paris Olympics there, with both events potentially helping put the location on the map.
Meanwhile, Villa would also like to renovate the Holte Pub, and its surrounding area at a later stage. The building is listed as Category B, and modifications are set to be made, with the possibility of it becoming a fan zone.
Post by: eamonn on July 07, 2023, 10:02:25 AM
Post by: Kevin Dawson on July 07, 2023, 10:17:20 AM
What's a vomitory? Sounds sick.
a passage that allows people to enter or leave an auditorium or stadium
Post by: London Villan on July 07, 2023, 10:17:25 AM
What's a vomitory? Sounds sick.
The entrance/exit from the concourse into the seats of the stand.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 07, 2023, 10:24:13 AM
What's a vomitory? Sounds sick.
😂
Post by: Ads on July 07, 2023, 10:24:43 AM
Post by: algy on July 07, 2023, 10:27:53 AM
I just don't see how Villa Live would have taken off because of the location. Outside of match days it would really struggle and on match days, really you're just talking about an hour or so before and after kick off. I don't think it's the sort of place that would be attractive to local residents. What the stumps conversion does is allow us to test the concept without spending the huge sums the new building would have cost.Yeah, this is pretty much where I sit with the whole thing. Could see a redeveloped Stumps as being potentially quite a useful event space really. If the club's commercial bread & butter is conferences & exhibitions - which a few people have mentioned - then really you want to create more space for that sort of thing, rather than a Villa Live type building which is going to aim at a completely different type of event. This Villa Whorehouse seems to be just that.
It adds an extra venue to the Holte Suite (which is always full before a game anyway) and is a lot more visible. I imagine a lot of non Holte End fans wouldn't even realise it existed.
Post by: TonyD on July 07, 2023, 10:29:42 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on July 07, 2023, 10:30:57 AM
We should all get to score and a bit of an upgrade to a pre match pie and a pint.I just don't see how Villa Live would have taken off because of the location. Outside of match days it would really struggle and on match days, really you're just talking about an hour or so before and after kick off. I don't think it's the sort of place that would be attractive to local residents. What the stumps conversion does is allow us to test the concept without spending the huge sums the new building would have cost.Yeah, this is pretty much where I sit with the whole thing. Could see a redeveloped Stumps as being potentially quite a useful event space really. If the club's commercial bread & butter is conferences & exhibitions - which a few people have mentioned - then really you want to create more space for that sort of thing, rather than a Villa Live type building which is going to aim at a completely different type of event. This Villa Whorehouse seems to be just that.
It adds an extra venue to the Holte Suite (which is always full before a game anyway) and is a lot more visible. I imagine a lot of non Holte End fans wouldn't even realise it existed.
Should be quicker to get served as well.
Post by: London Villan on July 07, 2023, 10:33:43 AM
Post by: jon collett on July 07, 2023, 10:52:38 AM
It now appears the Stand will be built in its actual position but will take two seasons.
Post by: Ads on July 07, 2023, 10:57:15 AM
Looks like a Sports Bar will go in the space where the current Trinity fan zone/park is.
Post by: jon collett on July 07, 2023, 11:16:27 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 07, 2023, 12:01:44 PM
Post by: LeeB on July 07, 2023, 12:05:35 PM
Does that mean it's now going to be a horseshoe design with a standalone Holte?
I don't think that would be the worse thing in the world to maximise space but retain some identity
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 07, 2023, 12:27:18 PM
Does that mean it's now going to be a horseshoe design with a standalone Holte?
No, the plans submitted earlier this year involved the lower Trinity merging into the lower tier of the new stand, so there will be access between the two. I think that's what he's referring to.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 07, 2023, 12:29:05 PM
Does that mean it's now going to be a horseshoe design with a standalone Holte?I don't think they've changed that part of the design have they? It was always going to connect at the lower tier level.
Post by: paul_e on July 07, 2023, 01:04:28 PM
Post by: Drummond on July 07, 2023, 01:39:49 PM
Having watched construction of some new buildings next to our office, the complexity of utilities is huge. If we want the best, then it takes time and money.
Ultimately what we want is the best stadium we can get, and I'm all for staying where we are. It'll be painful with a reduced capacity but the benefit in the longer term will be worth it, won't it?
Post by: Villan82 on July 07, 2023, 01:51:18 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on July 07, 2023, 01:57:29 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 07, 2023, 02:12:10 PM
I am being fairly thick and probably lazy. Do I understand this correctly? Instead of building on the existing North Stand they are going to demolish it and because of infrastructure preparations it is now going to take two years instead of one to build and that there will be a greatly reduced capacity in the meantime? in addition will the new stand bolt onto the DE and Trinity Stands? And the capacity is still going to be 60,000 and Villa Live - outside of the matchday events etc has been binned?
It will bolt on to the lower trinity so there is access between the two. Nothing about the DE (prob because that's living on borrowed time).
The North Stand was always going to be demolished, there was never any question of that. The article refers to Liverpool doing what a few clubs have done and building their new stand 'behind' the existing one, and demolishing the existing one further along the build.
Infrastructure work was always going to take a while, that's not anything new. It's not necessarily been extended to a two year build, it might always have been that, but this is the first time they've really spoken about the build timeframe.
The capacity will be just over 50k, and the plans are still there to move to 60k further along the line, but that is obviously going to involve rebuilding the DE.
Also, yes, two years of reduced capacity. I expect we'll get PL dispensation to reduce the number of away seats given because of this, so wouldn't be surprised to see the upper or lower current away sections being allocated to our fans for two years.
Post by: London Villan on July 07, 2023, 02:14:59 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on July 07, 2023, 02:49:39 PM
Post by: eamonn on July 07, 2023, 04:10:24 PM
Post by: Ads on July 07, 2023, 04:27:20 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 07, 2023, 05:31:40 PM
Hold on to your seats!
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 07, 2023, 05:37:07 PM
Suspect with a portion of the Trinity going we'll likely be down about 8000 seats.
I would guess that would partly be alleviated by a reduced away allocation.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 07, 2023, 05:43:23 PM
Suspect with a portion of the Trinity going we'll likely be down about 8000 seats.
I would guess that would partly be alleviated by a reduced away allocation.
I would have thought that the only way to really reduce the away allocation with the existing segregation would be to give them either the upper or lower away seats, but not both, which would free up another 1600 odd seats.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on July 07, 2023, 05:48:03 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 07, 2023, 06:11:45 PM
Even with the North knocked down we'd still be required to give a minimum 3k to away fans, so would need special dispensation from the PL to offer a smaller allocation. Not sure we'd get it if it's going to be for 2 years, or not much of a reduction.
It's happened before now.
Post by: Ads on July 07, 2023, 07:25:20 PM
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 07, 2023, 07:31:32 PM
That's the crux of the problem right there.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 07, 2023, 08:14:39 PM
Just watching the Claret and Blue podcast on this, and apparently last season there were on average 3 trains an hour going through Witton on match day.
That's the crux of the problem right there.
How many do you get on a train ?
Post by: rougegorge on July 07, 2023, 08:24:47 PM
No idea where all the ST holders in the north stand and Trinity will go, but selfishly, I am not looking forward to it.
Also, two years seems a long time to get a stand done.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 07, 2023, 08:26:45 PM
Just watching the Claret and Blue podcast on this, and apparently last season there were on average 3 trains an hour going through Witton on match day.
That's the crux of the problem right there.
How many do you get on a train ?
Well, apparently last season they'd let them leave not even full, which isn't a great position to be in.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on July 07, 2023, 08:34:57 PM
Just watching the Claret and Blue podcast on this, and apparently last season there were on average 3 trains an hour going through Witton on match day.
That's the crux of the problem right there.
As we speak on a friday evening, it's two in each direction per hour.
Post by: London Villan on July 07, 2023, 09:40:46 PM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
No change to Witton Lane in the first stage. They have said only minor amends to the plans that were approved, so witton lane remains as is.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 07, 2023, 09:56:01 PM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
No change to Witton Lane in the first stage. They have said only minor amends to the plans that were approved, so witton lane remains as is.
Any Architects amongst us know if they knocked down the Witton lane they would be able to re shape the stand without out going out over the road ?
Post by: PeterWithe on July 08, 2023, 08:28:57 AM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 08, 2023, 08:55:19 AM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
Post by: The Edge on July 08, 2023, 09:03:34 AM
I'm not an architect but I'm sure the answer to that is no.Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
No change to Witton Lane in the first stage. They have said only minor amends to the plans that were approved, so witton lane remains as is.
Any Architects amongst us know if they knocked down the Witton lane they would be able to re shape the stand without out going out over the road ?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 08, 2023, 09:04:34 AM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
:)
Post by: Ads on July 08, 2023, 09:10:23 AM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
No change to Witton Lane in the first stage. They have said only minor amends to the plans that were approved, so witton lane remains as is.
No I get that, but I'm thinking for safety reasons there might be bits of it lost as its too close to a building site.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 08, 2023, 10:04:22 AM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
:)
Come to Villa Park and you will see,
ANSELL’S BREWERY, M&B,
We don’t drink whiskey and we don’t drink rum,
We are the boot boys, from Brum.
Ansell’s Brewery wasn’t it?
Post by: luke95 on July 08, 2023, 10:32:18 AM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
:)
Come to Villa Park and you will see,
ANSELL’S BREWERY, M&B,
We don’t drink whiskey and we don’t drink rum,
We are the boot boys, from Brum.
Ansell’s Brewery wasn’t it?
Ansells was Aston Cross wasn't it , next to HP .
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on July 08, 2023, 10:38:13 AM
Although I'm quite partial to a bit of rum.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on July 08, 2023, 12:17:15 PM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
:)
It’s Flinstones registered office.
Post by: Chris Smith on July 08, 2023, 01:06:01 PM
Remember that chant, although I thought it was Villa Boys, rather than Boot Boys.
Although I'm quite partial to a bit of rum.
Dates from early 70s, definitely Boot Boys.
Sure we used to sing “Come to Birmingham…” but I was only a nipper so could be mistaken.
Post by: john e on July 08, 2023, 01:20:17 PM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
:)
Very good
Post by: Chap on July 08, 2023, 02:45:49 PM
Also, if Stumps used to be a factory, what did it make?
Sadness.
:)
Come to Villa Park and you will see,
ANSELL’S BREWERY, M&B,
We don’t drink whiskey and we don’t drink rum,
We are the boot boys, from Brum.
Ansell’s Brewery wasn’t it?
Ansells was Aston Cross wasn't it , next to HP .
Yes, that’s correct.
Post by: FrankyH on July 08, 2023, 04:10:36 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 08, 2023, 04:17:19 PM
Remember that chant, although I thought it was Villa Boys, rather than Boot Boys.
Although I'm quite partial to a bit of rum.
Dates from early 70s, definitely Boot Boys.
Sure we used to sing “Come to Birmingham…” but I was only a nipper so could be mistaken.
Yes, now you mention it I think you’re right.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 08, 2023, 04:22:23 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 08, 2023, 04:53:38 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on July 09, 2023, 01:22:27 AM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
Don't want to get all Flinstone about it and it might not be the case if the rebuild is done in phases, but I would imagine that a considerable number of fans not being able to attend home games for two seasons is going to be deeply unpopular.
Post by: Gareth on July 09, 2023, 07:49:18 AM
Post by: Ads on July 09, 2023, 08:51:15 AM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
Don't want to get all Flinstone about it and it might not be the case if the rebuild is done in phases, but I would imagine that a considerable number of fans not being able to attend home games for two seasons is going to be deeply unpopular.
It absolutely will be and it will drive folks wild, especially if we continue to improve as well. It makes selling 50,000 oit a virtual guarantee when we get the chance.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 09, 2023, 09:29:38 AM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
Don't want to get all Flinstone about it and it might not be the case if the rebuild is done in phases, but I would imagine that a considerable number of fans not being able to attend home games for two seasons is going to be deeply unpopular.
It absolutely will be and it will drive folks wild, especially if we continue to improve as well. It makes selling 50,000 oit a virtual guarantee when we get the chance.
Guaranteed anyway IMO. Long term we need to be pushing on from that figure.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 09, 2023, 10:31:50 AM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
Don't want to get all Flinstone about it and it might not be the case if the rebuild is done in phases, but I would imagine that a considerable number of fans not being able to attend home games for two seasons is going to be deeply unpopular.
Reducing the capacity to build a stand which will be half empty, i am absolutely LIVID, it's a DISGRACE.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on July 09, 2023, 11:00:26 AM
Post by: olaftab on July 09, 2023, 11:06:55 AM
Yes true. Why couldn't they keep upper North seats available whilst they demolish the lower, don't get what this club is doing right these days???Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
Don't want to get all Flinstone about it and it might not be the case if the rebuild is done in phases, but I would imagine that a considerable number of fans not being able to attend home games for two seasons is going to be deeply unpopular.
Reducing the capacity to build a stand which will be half empty, i am absolutely LIVID, it's a DISGRACE.
Post by: DB on July 09, 2023, 11:08:04 AM
Post by: bill on July 09, 2023, 11:11:25 AM
Post by: London Villan on July 09, 2023, 11:29:13 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 09, 2023, 11:45:21 AM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
True. And with that greater demand expect the high year on year Season ticket price increases to continue for at least a few seasons.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 09, 2023, 12:35:49 PM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
At the very least, people will be keeping a close eye on the 'Holiday Plans' thread on here.
Post by: bill on July 09, 2023, 12:48:38 PM
The upper tier was open first. However, they used the old seats in the lower tier, then had to rip them out and replace the whole tier due to various problems. It’s the reason there is such a wide gap between the pitch and the front row. Ellis on the cheap again.
Really? I remember sacrificing the last season on the Holte in order to move into the lower tier of the new Doug Ellis. Our theory being that we would get first dibs the following season when the upper tier was opened. This is exactly what happened, and we got 9 seats in a row three rows back bang on halfway. No arguments from me on Ellis the pennypincher though.
Post by: Villan82 on July 09, 2023, 01:54:49 PM
The upper tier was open first. However, they used the old seats in the lower tier, then had to rip them out and replace the whole tier due to various problems. It’s the reason there is such a wide gap between the pitch and the front row. Ellis on the cheap again.
Really? I remember sacrificing the last season on the Holte in order to move into the lower tier of the new Doug Ellis. Our theory being that we would get first dibs the following season when the upper tier was opened. This is exactly what happened, and we got 9 seats in a row three rows back bang on halfway. No arguments from me on Ellis the pennypincher though.
The lower tier was originally the old stand with new seats. The whole stand became operational against Blackburn in 1993/94 on 1 January 1994. The lower tier had been available prior to this. in the summer of 1995 the lower tier was ripped out and rebuilt
Post by: eamonn on July 09, 2023, 02:03:09 PM
Youd have to assume a bit of the Witton will go too, so my beat guess is they possibly extend the away section of the upper slightly and we get 1500-2000 away fans for a couple of years.
Match tickets will be a virtual impossibility.
At the very least, people will be keeping a close eye on the 'Holiday Plans' thread on here.
I think a "virtual possibility" will be the future of match-spectating for fans who don't go the stadium. Pravda via the broadcasters and the PL will sell virtual reality headsets to fans where we'll watch the games live and feel that we're there on the Holte.
You'll even stand up from your sofa after 41 minutes to some fecker in your "row" who goes to get a drink and a pie before the half-time rush. Luckily, your kitchen won't be staffed by an untrained 17 year old who's never poured a pint in their lives.
"Only £750 a season - a real saving on being there in person!"
Post by: CT Villan on July 09, 2023, 04:25:42 PM
Post by: olaftab on July 09, 2023, 04:38:41 PM
Anyway some fictitious sunlight issue the back gardens of 20 or so Holte Road residents in winter before 11am and summer before 9 am. I think Doug Ellis made it up due to lack of ambition.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on July 09, 2023, 05:37:18 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 09, 2023, 05:51:41 PM
I do think had we ever at any point in the last century and a quarter been able to go higher on Witton Lane, we would have.
Ah but we had houses right next to the road for most of that time.
Post by: The Edge on July 09, 2023, 06:58:58 PM
Can someone remind me why we can't extend out over Witton Lane like Trinity - is it detrimental to sunlight for the houses in back ?Blocking natural sunlight to the houses that back onto Witton Lane Park is a definite issue and the club will need to purchase those houses and demolish them. It will be a long protracted issue for the club. It will most likely take several years of legal wrangling. My guess is we won't see any new stand on the Witton Lane in this decade.
Post by: Louzie0 on July 09, 2023, 07:47:41 PM
I went to VP after the Springsteen event, expecting to see some major groundbreaking going on, behind the North Stand.
Tumbleweed.
Now I know why.
Got a nice pair of reduced training trousers from the shop, though! 👍
Post by: Rory on July 09, 2023, 08:53:52 PM
Thanks to Percy and Toronto for posting such detailed and informative stuff about the current situation.
I went to VP after the Springsteen event, expecting to see some major groundbreaking going on, behind the North Stand.
Tumbleweed.
Now I know why.
Got a nice pair of reduced training trousers from the shop, though! 👍
What a charming way of saying 'joggers'. Touch of class, Lou 🙂
Post by: VillaTim on July 09, 2023, 08:55:51 PM
New poster here . I'm really interested in the potential ground development. I love Villa Park.
I think to extend the Witton Lane stand it would mean re-routing Witton Lane itself which would be a major job.
I am a ST holder in the upper Witton , the concourse is a joke up there so would love some improvements but I can't see it happening anytime soon
Post by: Risso on July 09, 2023, 08:56:22 PM
Thanks to Percy and Toronto for posting such detailed and informative stuff about the current situation.
I went to VP after the Springsteen event, expecting to see some major groundbreaking going on, behind the North Stand.
Tumbleweed.
Now I know why.
Got a nice pair of reduced training trousers from the shop, though! 👍
What a charming way of saying 'joggers'. Touch of class, Lou 🙂
And a charming pair of matchday stockings.
Post by: Bad English on July 09, 2023, 09:09:25 PM
Post by: Louzie0 on July 09, 2023, 09:13:07 PM
Post by: Rory on July 09, 2023, 09:40:48 PM
Hi Everyone,
New poster here . I'm really interested in the potential ground development. I love Villa Park.
I think to extend the Witton Lane stand it would mean re-routing Witton Lane itself which would be a major job.
I am a ST holder in the upper Witton , the concourse is a joke up there so would love some improvements but I can't see it happening anytime soon
Welcome, mate.
Post by: VillaTim on July 09, 2023, 09:43:03 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 09, 2023, 09:45:01 PM
Hi Everyone,
New poster here . I'm really interested in the potential ground development. I love Villa Park.
I think to extend the Witton Lane stand it would mean re-routing Witton Lane itself which would be a major job.
I am a ST holder in the upper Witton , the concourse is a joke up there so would love some improvements but I can't see it happening anytime soon
Hi Tim. Yes, the facilities up there are woeful - I was in there for the Forest and Newcastle games. How times change though. I remember risking life and limb going to the toilet in the Kop at the Sty, up near the Tilton End. Ridiculously steep steps down into a dark hole, literally a hole in the terrace. (I used to go to the Sty often when they opened the gates at half-time). Back then we just accepted it (although it was worse than anything at Villa Park).
Post by: Louzie0 on July 09, 2023, 09:48:24 PM
Welcome to H&V!!
Appreciate the comments about the ground development.
Please keep them coming.
Love
❤️ Louzie0
Post by: VillaTim on July 09, 2023, 09:56:54 PM
Percy i know what you mean about Small Heath, I've stood on the old Tilton away end a few times, jeez what a dump.
Post by: DB on July 10, 2023, 02:28:01 PM
Post by: Des Little on July 10, 2023, 02:29:25 PM
If you look at what Real Madrid have done and what Barca have just started, it's make our renovations / work look easy.
I bet they’re glad they aren’t relying on their local council or train operator
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 10, 2023, 02:36:53 PM
If you look at what Real Madrid have done and what Barca have just started, it's make our renovations / work look easy.
I bet they’re glad they aren’t relying on their local council or train operator
Also helps that Andrés Calle is a shrewd operator.
Post by: DB on July 10, 2023, 02:39:51 PM
If you look at what Real Madrid have done and what Barca have just started, it's make our renovations / work look easy.
I bet they’re glad they aren’t relying on their local council or train operator
Absolutely, no way these sort of issues would be a problem.
Post by: The Edge on July 10, 2023, 02:53:51 PM
Haha. We used to do that Percy. A group of us would go from Saltley where I grew up and get into ground at half time for free. When there was a goal we would be picking up all the change they dropped which would buy pop and a bag of chips on the way home. Those bogs at the sty were like something from a third world country. The stench was truly horrific. Still is lolHi Everyone,
New poster here . I'm really interested in the potential ground development. I love Villa Park.
I think to extend the Witton Lane stand it would mean re-routing Witton Lane itself which would be a major job.
I am a ST holder in the upper Witton , the concourse is a joke up there so would love some improvements but I can't see it happening anytime soon
Hi Tim. Yes, the facilities up there are woeful - I was in there for the Forest and Newcastle games. How times change though. I remember risking life and limb going to the toilet in the Kop at the Sty, up near the Tilton End. Ridiculously steep steps down into a dark hole, literally a hole in the terrace. (I used to go to the Sty often when they opened the gates at half-time). Back then we just accepted it (although it was worse than anything at Villa Park).
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 10, 2023, 03:14:09 PM
Post by: The Edge on July 10, 2023, 03:21:53 PM
As Percy said to me many years ago, I wonder how much of their violent reputation came because they used to open the gates half an hour before the end so the rapscallions and ne'erdowells hanging round town would wander up to watch what passed for football there then cause mischief.That sounds about right.
Post by: Virgil Caine on July 10, 2023, 03:33:18 PM
As Percy said to me many years ago, I wonder how much of their violent reputation came because they used to open the gates half an hour before the end so the rapscallions and ne'erdowells hanging round town would wander up to watch what passed for football there then cause mischief.That sounds about right.
Hang on a minute though- in times of yore didn't the turnstiles open for the last half hour at Villa Park? I always remember as the lad who was supposed to be 'minding my car' cheerfully saying hello whilst walking past me in the Holte. I imagined he would pelt back to Pugh Road to collect his well earned coin for warding off gangs car thieves attempting to purloin my converted Mini Van. He probably assumed that car theft , if done correctly, would always be between 3 pm to 4.15pm hence his full on commitment for those precious 75 minutes.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 10, 2023, 03:41:03 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 10, 2023, 03:42:53 PM
As Percy said to me many years ago, I wonder how much of their violent reputation came because they used to open the gates half an hour before the end so the rapscallions and ne'erdowells hanging round town would wander up to watch what passed for football there then cause mischief.That sounds about right.
Hang on a minute though- in times of yore didn't the turnstiles open for the last half hour at Villa Park? I always remember as the lad who was supposed to be 'minding my car' cheerfully saying hello whilst walking past me in the Holte. I imagined he would pelt back to Pugh Road to collect his well earned coin for warding off gangs car thieves attempting to purloin my converted Mini Van. He probably assumed that car theft , if done correctly, would always be between 3 pm to 4.15pm hence his full on commitment for those precious 75 minutes.
that made me laugh
Post by: The Edge on July 10, 2023, 03:43:33 PM
They did open the gates at Villa Park at half time. But St Andrews is walkable from town whereas Villa Park isn't.As Percy said to me many years ago, I wonder how much of their violent reputation came because they used to open the gates half an hour before the end so the rapscallions and ne'erdowells hanging round town would wander up to watch what passed for football there then cause mischief.That sounds about right.
Hang on a minute though- in times of yore didn't the turnstiles open for the last half hour at Villa Park? I always remember as the lad who was supposed to be 'minding my car' cheerfully saying hello whilst walking past me in the Holte. I imagined he would pelt back to Pugh Road to collect his well earned coin for warding off gangs car thieves attempting to purloin my converted Mini Van. He probably assumed that car theft , if done correctly, would always be between 3 pm to 4.15pm hence his full on commitment for those precious 75 minutes.
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 10, 2023, 04:01:05 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 10, 2023, 04:02:30 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 10, 2023, 04:19:42 PM
Post by: Des Little on July 10, 2023, 04:21:03 PM
Post by: VillaTim on July 10, 2023, 06:51:16 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on July 11, 2023, 12:33:26 PM
I always felt agreeing to pay the quid to mind your car was pretty much payment for it not to be keyed the moment you walked away. In that context it felt like reasonable value to me. I always expected the kid to be at home watching telly until 4.40pm.
I think keying a car was too sophisticated and just smashing the windows was more the style! Anyone remember the old bloke with a flat cap and thick glasses who used to do it outside his house (presume it was his house) on the corner of Trinity Road and I think Endicott or Jardine Road?
Just talking about it seems like a very different time.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 11, 2023, 01:01:46 PM
I remember the gates opening in the Trinity lower (laste 70's early 80's) but not at HT , more like on 75/80 mins . And yes i remember loads of local youth used to come in then and catch the final minute free
I remember Chelsea trying to get into the Holte when the gates were opened on about 75mins. Early-mid 80s
Post by: PeterWithesShin on July 12, 2023, 02:01:52 PM
https://twitter.com/mundodeportivo/status/1678346148635979777
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 12, 2023, 03:42:33 PM
Over in Barcelona
https://twitter.com/mundodeportivo/status/1678346148635979777
They knocking it all down ?
Post by: VillaTim on July 12, 2023, 10:13:20 PM
Yes I remember that. We also had about 20 Stoke fans Trinity lower who ran onto the edge of the pitch then got escorted to the away pen. Was like a badge of honour back then to do that . This was about 85 I thinkI remember the gates opening in the Trinity lower (laste 70's early 80's) but not at HT , more like on 75/80 mins . And yes i remember loads of local youth used to come in then and catch the final minute free
I remember Chelsea trying to get into the Holte when the gates were opened on about 75mins. Early-mid 80s
Post by: Dave P on July 12, 2023, 10:28:06 PM
Did you buy the home tunic?
Anyone know when the away tabard is released?
Post by: chrisw1 on July 13, 2023, 10:31:28 AM
I'm sure I was at that game, had no idea what was going on. Can you imagine that now, just chucking another 20 fans behind the 12ft fences?Yes I remember that. We also had about 20 Stoke fans Trinity lower who ran onto the edge of the pitch then got escorted to the away pen. Was like a badge of honour back then to do that . This was about 85 I thinkI remember the gates opening in the Trinity lower (laste 70's early 80's) but not at HT , more like on 75/80 mins . And yes i remember loads of local youth used to come in then and catch the final minute free
I remember Chelsea trying to get into the Holte when the gates were opened on about 75mins. Early-mid 80s
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 13, 2023, 10:40:48 AM
I remember the gates opening in the Trinity lower (laste 70's early 80's) but not at HT , more like on 75/80 mins . And yes i remember loads of local youth used to come in then and catch the final minute free
I remember Chelsea trying to get into the Holte when the gates were opened on about 75mins. Early-mid 80s
I remember that as well.
Funny, I hadn't given that a second's thought in almost 40 years until reading it mentioned here.
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 13, 2023, 10:50:53 AM
I'm sure I was at that game, had no idea what was going on. Can you imagine that now, just chucking another 20 fans behind the 12ft fences?Yes I remember that. We also had about 20 Stoke fans Trinity lower who ran onto the edge of the pitch then got escorted to the away pen. Was like a badge of honour back then to do that . This was about 85 I thinkI remember the gates opening in the Trinity lower (laste 70's early 80's) but not at HT , more like on 75/80 mins . And yes i remember loads of local youth used to come in then and catch the final minute free
I remember Chelsea trying to get into the Holte when the gates were opened on about 75mins. Early-mid 80s
There weren't many standing there in the first place and the Stoke fans in the Trinity hadn't had much say in the matter.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on July 13, 2023, 11:23:39 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 13, 2023, 11:24:29 AM
Post by: steamer on July 13, 2023, 05:14:51 PM
I can’t remember the gates opening at half-time down the Villa. The first time we legged it from the Holte was to have a look at the view from the new North Stand, and that didn’t open until ten minutes (or thereabouts) from the end of the game. We also used to go in ten minutes from the end of the cup semi-finals, and also on one memorable occasion to sit by some bluenoses we’d spotted in the Trinity. We sat around them and had some ‘bantz’, but nothing more. They were a well-known family of nutters and weren’t the least bit intimidated. On the night I went to a bluenose’s birthday or engagement party at Lea Hall Legion, where I was, as far as I know, the only Villa fan. Needless to say, my ‘victims’ from the Trinity earlier were all there and remembered me well. I somehow managed to laugh it off.Was the Family the McCarthy's ?
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 13, 2023, 06:57:02 PM
I can’t remember the gates opening at half-time down the Villa. The first time we legged it from the Holte was to have a look at the view from the new North Stand, and that didn’t open until ten minutes (or thereabouts) from the end of the game. We also used to go in ten minutes from the end of the cup semi-finals, and also on one memorable occasion to sit by some bluenoses we’d spotted in the Trinity. We sat around them and had some ‘bantz’, but nothing more. They were a well-known family of nutters and weren’t the least bit intimidated. On the night I went to a bluenose’s birthday or engagement party at Lea Hall Legion, where I was, as far as I know, the only Villa fan. Needless to say, my ‘victims’ from the Trinity earlier were all there and remembered me well. I somehow managed to laugh it off.Was the Family the McCarthy's ?
Mooneys.
Post by: LeeB on July 13, 2023, 07:48:45 PM
I can’t remember the gates opening at half-time down the Villa. The first time we legged it from the Holte was to have a look at the view from the new North Stand, and that didn’t open until ten minutes (or thereabouts) from the end of the game. We also used to go in ten minutes from the end of the cup semi-finals, and also on one memorable occasion to sit by some bluenoses we’d spotted in the Trinity. We sat around them and had some ‘bantz’, but nothing more. They were a well-known family of nutters and weren’t the least bit intimidated. On the night I went to a bluenose’s birthday or engagement party at Lea Hall Legion, where I was, as far as I know, the only Villa fan. Needless to say, my ‘victims’ from the Trinity earlier were all there and remembered me well. I somehow managed to laugh it off.Was the Family the McCarthy's ?
Mooneys.
As in Tommy? I once had a second hand tumble dryer off his ex
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 13, 2023, 08:19:48 PM
I can’t remember the gates opening at half-time down the Villa. The first time we legged it from the Holte was to have a look at the view from the new North Stand, and that didn’t open until ten minutes (or thereabouts) from the end of the game. We also used to go in ten minutes from the end of the cup semi-finals, and also on one memorable occasion to sit by some bluenoses we’d spotted in the Trinity. We sat around them and had some ‘bantz’, but nothing more. They were a well-known family of nutters and weren’t the least bit intimidated. On the night I went to a bluenose’s birthday or engagement party at Lea Hall Legion, where I was, as far as I know, the only Villa fan. Needless to say, my ‘victims’ from the Trinity earlier were all there and remembered me well. I somehow managed to laugh it off.Was the Family the McCarthy's ?
Mooneys.
As in Tommy? I once had a second hand tumble dryer off his ex
Not the player. I think one of them was called Tommy but there was definitely a Tony so I might be getting mixed up.
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 13, 2023, 09:23:42 PM
Good few Mooneys live in Quinton police and the council barred them from the area, that was about middle eighties approximatelyI can’t remember the gates opening at half-time down the Villa. The first time we legged it from the Holte was to have a look at the view from the new North Stand, and that didn’t open until ten minutes (or thereabouts) from the end of the game. We also used to go in ten minutes from the end of the cup semi-finals, and also on one memorable occasion to sit by some bluenoses we’d spotted in the Trinity. We sat around them and had some ‘bantz’, but nothing more. They were a well-known family of nutters and weren’t the least bit intimidated. On the night I went to a bluenose’s birthday or engagement party at Lea Hall Legion, where I was, as far as I know, the only Villa fan. Needless to say, my ‘victims’ from the Trinity earlier were all there and remembered me well. I somehow managed to laugh it off.Was the Family the McCarthy's ?
Mooneys.
Post by: Drummond on July 14, 2023, 10:00:30 AM
Anyway, they've clearly invited people to take up the offer, but I wasn't one of them, so I'm guessing there is plenty of interest further up the waiting list.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 14, 2023, 10:04:57 AM
Good few Mooneys live in Quinton police and the council barred them from the area, that was about middle eighties approximatelyI can’t remember the gates opening at half-time down the Villa. The first time we legged it from the Holte was to have a look at the view from the new North Stand, and that didn’t open until ten minutes (or thereabouts) from the end of the game. We also used to go in ten minutes from the end of the cup semi-finals, and also on one memorable occasion to sit by some bluenoses we’d spotted in the Trinity. We sat around them and had some ‘bantz’, but nothing more. They were a well-known family of nutters and weren’t the least bit intimidated. On the night I went to a bluenose’s birthday or engagement party at Lea Hall Legion, where I was, as far as I know, the only Villa fan. Needless to say, my ‘victims’ from the Trinity earlier were all there and remembered me well. I somehow managed to laugh it off.Was the Family the McCarthy's ?
Mooneys.
Yeah there was definitely a branch of the family in Quinton/Bartley Green.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 14, 2023, 10:15:51 AM
I'm on the season ticket waiting list, 12500 ish last season, and registered my interest in the Terrace View when it was an option to. Because I wanted to know more about it.edit - I've moved my response to the ST thread
Anyway, they've clearly invited people to take up the offer, but I wasn't one of them, so I'm guessing there is plenty of interest further up the waiting list.
Post by: Nelly on July 16, 2023, 11:52:35 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
Post by: exigo on July 16, 2023, 12:08:18 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
And from the other side. (https://twitter.com/richardstarbuck/status/1679864461941678081)
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 16, 2023, 12:09:55 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
Two of them please, either side of the Holte & new North. But with more seats in ours obvs.
Post by: paul_e on July 16, 2023, 02:07:09 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 16, 2023, 02:30:23 PM
I haven't been there for a long time now, but I recall it was surrounded by faintly depressing looking inter-war semi detached housing, and a supermarket on one side.
Post by: algy on July 16, 2023, 02:39:14 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:That's brilliant and exactly the type of thing that we ought to be doing at Villa Park. You look at that stand and it doesn't even need to have "crystal palace" written on the side for it to scream Crystal Palace at you.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
We should aim for that with every stand - or should be uniquely ours. Take away the "Aston Villa" and the badges, paint it a different colour, and it's still quite obviously our stand.
Post by: Risso on July 16, 2023, 03:57:04 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:That's brilliant and exactly the type of thing that we ought to be doing at Villa Park. You look at that stand and it doesn't even need to have "crystal palace" written on the side for it to scream Crystal Palace at you.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
We should aim for that with every stand - or should be uniquely ours. Take away the "Aston Villa" and the badges, paint it a different colour, and it's still quite obviously our stand.
The only bit of Villa Park where that applies now is the outside of the Holte. The architecture there is great and looks like the ornate Victorian red brick we’re famous for. The rest of it could be pretty well be from any old ground in the country. The DE looks like a warehouse, the North is a 70s concrete eyesore, and the Trinity could be any modern stand with loads of beams on the roof. Nothing really hangs together in a way that says “Aston Villa”.
Post by: Gareth on July 16, 2023, 04:09:44 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:That's brilliant and exactly the type of thing that we ought to be doing at Villa Park. You look at that stand and it doesn't even need to have "crystal palace" written on the side for it to scream Crystal Palace at you.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
We should aim for that with every stand - or should be uniquely ours. Take away the "Aston Villa" and the badges, paint it a different colour, and it's still quite obviously our stand.
The only bit of Villa Park where that applies now is the outside of the Holte. The architecture there is great and looks like the ornate Victorian red brick we’re famous for. The rest of it could be pretty well be from any old ground in the country. The DE looks like a warehouse, the North is a 70s concrete eyesore, and the Trinity could be any modern stand with loads of beams on the roof. Nothing really hangs together in a way that says “Aston Villa”.
I agree with that…for me the site is everything that is special, what is built on it isn’t at all beyond the Holte facade.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 16, 2023, 04:44:39 PM
That's the sort of thing we can't do because of the size/shape of the plot we're on.
There should be no barriers to a couple of multi-billionaires willing to pump hundreds of millions of pounds into a major attraction in a deprived inner-city area. If there is it’s madness.
Post by: trinityoap on July 16, 2023, 05:21:25 PM
Post by: Rory on July 16, 2023, 08:48:02 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ASE-HWAAEjA0Y?format=jpg&name=large)
Two of them please, either side of the Holte & new North. But with more seats in ours obvs.
Maybe because it's Crystal Palace and such grand architecture is incongruous with my own estimation of the club, but I find that faintly ridiculous.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 16, 2023, 09:01:28 PM
Doesn't matter what Palace's ground is like, except for our supporters in the south east it will still be a bloody nightmare to get to ,especially for a midweek game. They should be forced to play in Milton Keynes.(Does look quite good though).
I live about 4 miles away and I chose Selhurst Park for my Covid jab. Thought it might be a bit more fun than my local health centre. Took me over 30 mins to drive there in the middle of the afternoon. I did get to walk around the pitch though with absolutely nobody else around.
Post by: Flin5tone on July 16, 2023, 09:02:26 PM
Let's have a bit of class not glass
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 16, 2023, 09:03:35 PM
Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:
Two of them please, either side of the Holte & new North. But with more seats in ours obvs.
Maybe because it's Crystal Palace and such grand architecture is incongruous with my own estimation of the club, but I find that faintly ridiculous.
Agreed, looks out of place and like something you'd expect to see in a 'Visit Dubai' brochure. Like the New New Hampden, I'll be surprised if it's ever built. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65828702
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on July 16, 2023, 09:06:21 PM
Let's have a bit of class not glass
Isn’t it a reference to the original Crystal Palace building? The glass for which was made in Smethwick…
Post by: Mellin on July 16, 2023, 09:37:32 PM
Post by: AV82EC on July 16, 2023, 10:16:11 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 16, 2023, 10:32:36 PM
Let's have a bit of class not glass
Isn’t it a reference to the original Crystal Palace building? The glass for which was made in Smethwick…
And the iron in Brum too.
Post by: chrisw1 on July 17, 2023, 09:45:52 AM
It's not our of place if you understand where the name Crystal Palace comes from.Pretty impressive mock up for what Crystal Palace intend to do with their new Main Stand:
Two of them please, either side of the Holte & new North. But with more seats in ours obvs.
Maybe because it's Crystal Palace and such grand architecture is incongruous with my own estimation of the club, but I find that faintly ridiculous.
Agreed, looks out of place and like something you'd expect to see in a 'Visit Dubai' brochure. Like the New New Hampden, I'll be surprised if it's ever built. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/65828702
Post by: TheMalandro on July 17, 2023, 10:06:36 AM
Post by: Dazvillain on July 19, 2023, 10:57:56 AM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/19/aston-villa-unveil-updated-north-stand-plans/
Post by: Risso on July 19, 2023, 11:08:48 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/K2Pk5ZY/Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-11-05-00.png) (https://ibb.co/K2Pk5ZY)
(https://i.ibb.co/6vxSMRg/Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-11-05-50.png) (https://ibb.co/6vxSMRg)
Post by: Axl Rose on July 19, 2023, 11:11:33 AM
I'm still disappointed with this. Instead of Villa Live and a nice new pedestrian/sports area, they're tarting up an old shit hole and leaving the rest of the space as a car park.
(https://i.ibb.co/K2Pk5ZY/Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-11-05-00.png) (https://ibb.co/K2Pk5ZY)
(https://i.ibb.co/6vxSMRg/Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-11-05-50.png) (https://ibb.co/6vxSMRg)
Agreed. Looks shit.
Well, maybe not shit, just boring and a bit rubbish compared to what was first on offer.
Post by: Tuscans on July 19, 2023, 11:18:37 AM
Post by: paul_e on July 19, 2023, 11:20:52 AM
Are these changes enforced by the council?
No, the previous plans were approved, these changes are all down to the club.
Personally I don't mind them using Stumps instead of the new building, so long as they put the work in to fully refurb it.
Post by: Flin5tone on July 19, 2023, 11:25:07 AM
Talk about being cheap , something has obviously changed
Post by: Tuscans on July 19, 2023, 11:25:38 AM
Cheers.Are these changes enforced by the council?
No, the previous plans were approved, these changes are all down to the club.
Personally I don't mind them using Stumps instead of the new building, so long as they put the work in to fully refurb it.
Post by: Billy Walker on July 19, 2023, 11:27:20 AM
Post by: Villatillidie25 on July 19, 2023, 11:29:37 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on July 19, 2023, 11:30:12 AM
I thought the new building was nice, so it's a shame to see it ditched, but the important thing is the capacity increase. They can always do more in the carpark at a later date.
Post by: Gareth on July 19, 2023, 11:32:19 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 19, 2023, 11:32:22 AM
To be fair, The Warehouse is a much better name than Villa Live for me, and it ties in with Birmingham being an industrial city.
Agreed, I wasn't keen on 'Villa Live' either. If nothing else, if you want to attract patrons from across the city it might be better to have a 'neutral' name.
Post by: paul_e on July 19, 2023, 11:35:06 AM
what's "the warehouse"? is that just a stripped back version of Villa Live?
Pretty much, using the existing stumps/academy building to deliver a similar concept.
Post by: Gareth on July 19, 2023, 11:35:27 AM
To be fair, The Warehouse is a much better name than Villa Live for me, and it ties in with Birmingham being an industrial city.
I thought the new building was nice, so it's a shame to see it ditched, but the important thing is the capacity increase. They can always do more in the carpark at a later date.
Not sure ref name, first instance I agreed then I thought what the nickname for Villa Park will become from the idiots across the city :-)
Post by: Risso on July 19, 2023, 11:37:00 AM
To be fair, The Warehouse is a much better name than Villa Live for me, and it ties in with Birmingham being an industrial city.
Agreed, I wasn't keen on 'Villa Live' either. If nothing else, if you want to attract patrons from across the city it might be better to have a 'neutral' name.
I'm not sure 'The Warehouse at Villa Park" is the neutrality you were looking for! :)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 19, 2023, 11:38:56 AM
The original plan for Villa Live had a wall to list all those on the waiting list, like the old Shoot League Ladders…everyone on the list has to buy a brick to retain their place on the list….as the list is apparently imaginary so is the wall and so is Villa Live
The new idea is that everyone on the waiting list will have their name inscribed on a copy of the Vietnam memorial in Washington.
Post by: Ads on July 19, 2023, 11:58:54 AM
Very much looking forward to that behemoth sitting grandly opposite me in the years to come.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 19, 2023, 12:01:06 PM
Does anybody else think the corner of the new North is bigger in the fresh video? It does say minor changes to the North, but maybe its memories playing tricks.
Very much looking forward to that behemoth sitting grandly opposite me in the years to come.
They did say they were going to try an utilise empty space at the corner of the Trinity road ?
Post by: danno on July 19, 2023, 12:06:09 PM
what's "the warehouse"? is that just a stripped back version of Villa Live?
I keep thinking Wacky Warehouse complete with slides and ball pit.
Post by: Risso on July 19, 2023, 12:06:30 PM
Villa Live/other developments will be carried out later as time goes on? Seems fair enough to me.
And if you believe that, I've got some magic beans for sale.
Post by: VillaTim on July 19, 2023, 12:10:36 PM
with a Harvester bolted on next door for good measurewhat's "the warehouse"? is that just a stripped back version of Villa Live?
I keep thinking Wacky Warehouse complete with slides and ball pit.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 19, 2023, 12:11:52 PM
To be fair, The Warehouse is a much better name than Villa Live for me, and it ties in with Birmingham being an industrial city.
Agreed, I wasn't keen on 'Villa Live' either. If nothing else, if you want to attract patrons from across the city it might be better to have a 'neutral' name.
I'm not sure 'The Warehouse at Villa Park" is the neutrality you were looking for! :)
Fair enough, I haven't read the detailed release yet, thought it was just 'The Warehouse'. Still think it's better than 'Villa Live' which conjured up images of a covers band comprised of players from our first team.
Post by: Ads on July 19, 2023, 12:16:41 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 19, 2023, 12:18:20 PM
As long as the North is a big beastie, where the lower tier drowns the away support out, that'll do for me.
Yes, that's the main thing.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on July 19, 2023, 12:20:03 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 19, 2023, 12:25:21 PM
Post by: Ads on July 19, 2023, 12:27:19 PM
Twitter Link (https://twitter.com/TheVillaTalk_/status/1681607203503980545?t=DTaaOs74WamvAxWyez3nog&s=19)
Post by: Dogtanian on July 19, 2023, 12:29:05 PM
This is the picture I'm referring to. It just seems bigger in the lower Trinity/North corner to me.
Twitter Link (https://twitter.com/TheVillaTalk_/status/1681607203503980545?t=DTaaOs74WamvAxWyez3nog&s=19)
Isn't that an old picture from the previous press release? Because it has Cazoo everywhere and I can't see it on the new release.
Post by: langleylions on July 19, 2023, 12:35:44 PM
Post by: Risso on July 19, 2023, 12:40:51 PM
This is the picture I'm referring to. It just seems bigger in the lower Trinity/North corner to me.
Twitter Link (https://twitter.com/TheVillaTalk_/status/1681607203503980545?t=DTaaOs74WamvAxWyez3nog&s=19)
It's exactly the same picture in both.
Post by: Villan For Life on July 19, 2023, 12:44:13 PM
talking of redevelopments , take alook over at the noses forum SHA , omg they are talking about hosting nfl games / nba / aquatics / velodrome all in their new 70k stadium funded by the council , 🤣🤣, absolute retards the very last one of em ffs
Take a look at the first page of the SHA thread from July 2009, they were saying the same thing then. This bloody council work so slowly....
https://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=33747.0
Post by: Risso on July 19, 2023, 12:46:38 PM
Great, the council are going to form a committee. Hope it gets built in my lifetime!
Post by: London Villan on July 19, 2023, 01:04:07 PM
Post by: langleylions on July 19, 2023, 01:10:21 PM
Post by: VillaTim on July 19, 2023, 01:23:31 PM
talking of redevelopments , take alook over at the noses forum SHA , omg they are talking about hosting nfl games / nba / aquatics / velodrome all in their new 70k stadium funded by the council , 🤣🤣, absolute retards the very last one of em ffsreminds me of when they took 500,000 to Wembley for the Autowindshields
Post by: Ads on July 19, 2023, 01:23:40 PM
This is the picture I'm referring to. It just seems bigger in the lower Trinity/North corner to me.
Twitter Link (https://twitter.com/TheVillaTalk_/status/1681607203503980545?t=DTaaOs74WamvAxWyez3nog&s=19)
It's exactly the same picture in both.
It's a different angle, one that was released before is from the corner of the Holte. Eitherway, she's big.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 19, 2023, 01:29:55 PM
This is the picture I'm referring to. It just seems bigger in the lower Trinity/North corner to me.
Twitter Link (https://twitter.com/TheVillaTalk_/status/1681607203503980545?t=DTaaOs74WamvAxWyez3nog&s=19)
It's exactly the same picture in both.
It's a different angle, one that was released before is from the corner of the Holte. Eitherway, she's big.
I hope one day it wraps all the way around to the Witton lane and gets nearer 60.000
Post by: Duncan Shaw on July 19, 2023, 01:30:09 PM
talking of redevelopments , take alook over at the noses forum SHA , omg they are talking about hosting nfl games / nba / aquatics / velodrome all in their new 70k stadium funded by the council , 🤣🤣, absolute retards the very last one of em ffs
Take a look at the first page of the SHA thread from July 2009, they were saying the same thing then. This bloody council work so slowly....
https://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=33747.0
Crikey, just took the trouble to read that thread on SHA - hope Nas and Wes don't read it, they'll just up sticks and bugger off!
Post by: Ger Regan on July 19, 2023, 01:35:42 PM
talking of redevelopments , take alook over at the noses forum SHA , omg they are talking about hosting nfl games / nba / aquatics / velodrome all in their new 70k stadium funded by the council , 🤣🤣, absolute retards the very last one of em ffsPlease refrain from using those sort of slurs on here
Post by: langleylions on July 19, 2023, 02:26:10 PM
Post by: Dazvillain on July 19, 2023, 04:33:27 PM
Shite
Talk about being cheap , something has obviously changed
Purslow out and Heck in
Post by: Dazvillain on July 19, 2023, 04:37:48 PM
Post by: eamonn on July 20, 2023, 01:11:35 AM
sorry intellectually challenged !!! that better m8
Yes,
Post by: algy on July 20, 2023, 06:55:56 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/6vxSMRg/Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-11-05-50.png) (https://ibb.co/6vxSMRg)Take away the Villa badge in the brickwork and it could easily be an Asda. Really wish the club would be a little bolder in their designs.
Post by: PeterWithe on July 20, 2023, 07:35:33 AM
I’d like to see something that pays architectural homage to the old Trinity entrance.
Post by: Dogtanian on July 20, 2023, 07:58:11 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/6vxSMRg/Screenshot-2023-07-19-at-11-05-50.png) (https://ibb.co/6vxSMRg)Take away the Villa badge in the brickwork and it could easily be an Asda. Really wish the club would be a little bolder in their designs.
Nice one, can pick up a pizza on the way out!
Post by: Dante Lavelli on July 20, 2023, 08:52:40 AM
Post by: Bad English on July 20, 2023, 09:43:47 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 20, 2023, 09:56:10 AM
Are they calling it the frankly bland and boring 'North Stand'? I see they've put it on the virtual imagery.
Probably just a placeholder until Chris Heck arranges a massive naming rights deal with 'The North Face'.
Post by: Risso on July 20, 2023, 10:04:13 AM
It’s a massive improvement but architecturally it’s not much of a statement. A lot will depend on the quality of the glazing in the middle section as the brick corners are okay imo.
Agreed, it's pretty non-descript. Could be a warehouse or office block on an industrial estate. I don't like the fact that the car park is now right up to the stand, I thought the idea was to make things greener and more pedestrian friendly?
In short, rubbish.
Post by: Flin5tone on July 20, 2023, 10:14:10 AM
It’s a massive improvement but architecturally it’s not much of a statement. A lot will depend on the quality of the glazing in the middle section as the brick corners are okay imo.
Agreed, it's pretty non-descript. Could be a warehouse or office block on an industrial estate. I don't like the fact that the car park is now right up to the stand, I thought the idea was to make things greener and more pedestrian friendly?
In short, rubbish.
We've been lied to. Old shield, old warehouse,about two trees
It's like looking at the Conservative government in action
Post by: LeeB on July 20, 2023, 10:16:38 AM
Are they calling it the frankly bland and boring 'North Stand'? I see they've put it on the virtual imagery.
Probably just a placeholder until Chris Heck arranges a massive naming rights deal with 'The North Face'.
The 'North of a grand to sit here' Stand
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 20, 2023, 10:23:20 AM
It’s a massive improvement but architecturally it’s not much of a statement. A lot will depend on the quality of the glazing in the middle section as the brick corners are okay imo.
At least it doesn't have metal sheets all over it like the Trinity has . What is that all about ?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 10:30:51 AM
I mean, I understand ditching the Villa Live element of it, but it's not like they've suddenly decided to make it look like a retail park or something.
Post by: Ads on July 20, 2023, 10:35:02 AM
The exterior of the stand hasn't changed, so how come it's become horrible?
I mean, I understand ditching the Villa Live element of it, but it's not like they've suddenly decided to make it look like a retail park or something.
They won't respond, an irritating looking cloud has just drifted by that they're shaking their fists at.
Post by: Villan82 on July 20, 2023, 10:40:21 AM
Post by: Ads on July 20, 2023, 10:43:19 AM
Car park is a Villa Live width closer to the rear, but it's not up to the stand, the avenue still exists and is flat, with the same large corner by the Trinity that was there in the earlier render.
Stand still looks the beans from the inside with the new frontal shot. Generally these newer renders aren't as detailed graphically either though.
And tree content has increased by double for those that care about paint chippings, Monster and not getting caught masturbating by their mom in the command centre/box room.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 10:45:42 AM
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/aston-villa-stadium-expansion-given-go-ahead-23-12-2022/
Updated plans:
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/19/aston-villa-unveil-updated-north-stand-plans/
Exactly the same exterior.
Post by: Villan82 on July 20, 2023, 10:48:02 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 20, 2023, 10:53:31 AM
I see Risso's point, we've moved from having green and communal leisure spaces to a car park right up to the stand. It does take away from it a bit but the players and staff have to park somewhere. I always think it's disappointing when we don't take the opportunity to build underground car parking, but I'd guess that would significantly increase the cost and timescale of the project.
But moving back to the supermarket theme, Tesco managed two levels of underground parking in Stourbridge town centre so I'm not sure why it should be so unachievable here? (I guess engineers amongst us may say the size, scale and weight of the stand make it impossible without exorbitant costs?)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 10:56:23 AM
I wouldn't get too hung up on that, tbh.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on July 20, 2023, 11:18:43 AM
Original plans:
https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/aston-villa-stadium-expansion-given-go-ahead-23-12-2022/
Updated plans:
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2023/july/19/aston-villa-unveil-updated-north-stand-plans/
Exactly the same exterior.
Fair point paulie. I guess the absence of villa live means the points of reference change and the middle bit becomes more prominent whereas before it felt like the middle of ‘Victorian terrace’/street.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 20, 2023, 11:21:16 AM
Post by: LeeB on July 20, 2023, 11:29:10 AM
I much prefer the 2nd design. It looks far more imposing and means VP retains it's Ground heritage as opposed to looking like a scaled down version of an Independence Day space craft that is the new norm. The overhang of the roof looks really good on the Witton Lane side, does it's roof job but looks architecturally pleasing as it fills an open space without compromising the DE stand. It's something different.
I prefer the look of the warehouse too, rather than that generic Boxpark-type lump
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 20, 2023, 11:33:30 AM
The stand looks fine without looking special. I wish I hadn't read the Asda comparison as I can't get that out of my mind now.
I see Risso's point, we've moved from having green and communal leisure spaces to a car park right up to the stand. It does take away from it a bit but the players and staff have to park somewhere. I always think it's disappointing when we don't take the opportunity to build underground car parking, but I'd guess that would significantly increase the cost and timescale of the project.
But moving back to the supermarket theme, Tesco managed two levels of underground parking in Stourbridge town centre so I'm not sure why it should be so unachievable here? (I guess engineers amongst us may say the size, scale and weight of the stand make it impossible without exorbitant costs?)
Is the water table still high?
Post by: Brend'Watkins on July 20, 2023, 11:35:16 AM
I much prefer the 2nd design. It looks far more imposing and means VP retains it's Ground heritage as opposed to looking like a scaled down version of an Independence Day space craft that is the new norm. The overhang of the roof looks really good on the Witton Lane side, does it's roof job but looks architecturally pleasing as it fills an open space without compromising the DE stand. It's something different.
I prefer the look of the warehouse too, rather than that generic Boxpark-type lump
That too. I detest the words 'Fanzone' and 'Box-Park' but am glad they are called so as I will know that I need to avoid and go to a destination of my choice namely called a pub.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 20, 2023, 11:36:11 AM
I much prefer the 2nd design. It looks far more imposing and means VP retains it's Ground heritage as opposed to looking like a scaled down version of an Independence Day space craft that is the new norm. The overhang of the roof looks really good on the Witton Lane side, does it's roof job but looks architecturally pleasing as it fills an open space without compromising the DE stand. It's something different.
I prefer the look of the warehouse too, rather than that generic Boxpark-type lump
That too. I detest the words 'Fanzone' and 'Box-Park' but am glad they are called so as I will know that I need to avoid and go to a destination of my choice namely called a pub.
The building has character , something a bit different
Post by: Risso on July 20, 2023, 12:33:41 PM
In the fly through video, you can see about half a dozen cars parked and they're not even in the area directly behind the stand at all.
I wouldn't get too hung up on that, tbh.
Not sure what you were looking at there tbh, that clearly isn't what's been submitted at all:
(Click to see full picture)
(https://i.ibb.co/xsVBc5W/Screenshot-2023-07-20-at-12-30-53.png) (https://ibb.co/xsVBc5W)
Post by: paul_e on July 20, 2023, 12:45:28 PM
I suspect Paulie is talking about the fly-through at about 30 seconds in the video.
On the overhead shot the 2 basketball courts stick out to me. There's a court opposite the DE (near the away end) so I wonder if part of the redesigned plans have been done with an eye on the future and creating the replacement for that court before it's needed.
Post by: Ads on July 20, 2023, 12:50:13 PM
In the fly through video, you can see about half a dozen cars parked and they're not even in the area directly behind the stand at all.
I wouldn't get too hung up on that, tbh.
Not sure what you were looking at there tbh, that clearly isn't what's been submitted at all:
(Click to see full picture)
(https://i.ibb.co/xsVBc5W/Screenshot-2023-07-20-at-12-30-53.png) (https://ibb.co/xsVBc5W)
The roof of the stand comes out quite a ways. That top down picture doesn't conflict with the other render as you've got the top 6 or 7 rows of the upper tier, some clear space and a whack of steel all over hanging.
Post by: Risso on July 20, 2023, 12:58:27 PM
Post by: London Villan on July 20, 2023, 01:04:07 PM
Post by: Villan82 on July 20, 2023, 01:10:41 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.
What tosh.
Post by: Risso on July 20, 2023, 01:16:09 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.
What tosh.
OK, well I’ve actually posted proof, but whatever.
Post by: Ads on July 20, 2023, 01:17:17 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.
Well it's not got the Villa Live bit so there's more car park there than at bottom as they're re-doing Stumps. It's different, but the big new stand is the same and drinking area is similar.
Post by: paul_e on July 20, 2023, 01:35:33 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.
Well it's not got the Villa Live bit so there's more car park there than at bottom as they're re-doing Stumps. It's different, but the big new stand is the same and drinking area is similar.
As I mentioned above, they've added 2 basketball courts that weren't in the original plan so I'm nut sure the car park is much bigger anyway.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 20, 2023, 01:39:14 PM
It'll bring in the Japanese tourists for Hanami season.
Post by: Bad English on July 20, 2023, 01:42:01 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 20, 2023, 01:45:45 PM
I much prefer the 2nd design. It looks far more imposing and means VP retains it's Ground heritage as opposed to looking like a scaled down version of an Independence Day space craft that is the new norm. The overhang of the roof looks really good on the Witton Lane side, does it's roof job but looks architecturally pleasing as it fills an open space without compromising the DE stand. It's something different.The stand designs are the same, aren't they?
Post by: chrisw1 on July 20, 2023, 01:56:47 PM
How is it tosh? It's an irrefutable fact. The 'external fan zone' area looks about the same size as the over crowded area we have now by the stage.It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.
What tosh.
Post by: Axl Rose on July 20, 2023, 01:58:10 PM
I thought they were dust clouds from the locals doing 'donuts' in Aston Park.
😂
Post by: VillaTim on July 20, 2023, 02:00:39 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/sym1yyJ/F1a-Pa-KWIAEzf-T3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sym1yyJ)
here are the latest Holte End developments for disabled / terrace view entrance etc
Post by: FatSam on July 20, 2023, 02:15:40 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.I don't think the quantum of parking will be substantively different to the previous version. The Academy building obviously sits in a different position to the proposed Villa Live building. That means that the parking has been redistributed and the basketball courts re-positioned. I'm fairly sure that the width of the pedestrian route along the rear of the new stand will be the same in both the previous and current schemes. Yes, this route is bounded by parking, but that is because it can't be pushed behind the Villa Live building. In the aerial view that you've posted, the pedestrian route is hidden behind the overhanging roof due to the perspective.
Post by: Risso on July 20, 2023, 02:28:13 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.I don't think the quantum of parking will be substantively different to the previous version. The Academy building obviously sits in a different position to the proposed Villa Live building. That means that the parking has been redistributed and the basketball courts re-positioned. I'm fairly sure that the width of the pedestrian route along the rear of the new stand will be the same in both the previous and current schemes. Yes, this route is bounded by parking, but that is because it can't be pushed behind the Villa Live building. In the aerial view that you've posted, the pedestrian route is hidden behind the overhanging roof due to the perspective.
But the idea was that outside the new stand/Villa Live there'd be loads of room for other vendors and the like, so that all of the immediate area around the stand would be for pedestrians. That area is for cars now.
Of course the size of the new stand is by far the most important factor, but in the absence of anything else to talk about, my opinion of the amended plans is that I don't like them at all. Like the badge fiasco it smacks of uncertainty and not knowing what you're doing, and that annoys me about Villa.
Not directly in the club's power to do anything about, but I'd also be amazed if this isn't held up for the next three years at least by the council and associated idiots not agreeing over the station.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 03:28:01 PM
It's still a massive car park that goes virtually all the way up to the stand. Nothing like the vision that was sold originally.I don't think the quantum of parking will be substantively different to the previous version. The Academy building obviously sits in a different position to the proposed Villa Live building. That means that the parking has been redistributed and the basketball courts re-positioned. I'm fairly sure that the width of the pedestrian route along the rear of the new stand will be the same in both the previous and current schemes. Yes, this route is bounded by parking, but that is because it can't be pushed behind the Villa Live building. In the aerial view that you've posted, the pedestrian route is hidden behind the overhanging roof due to the perspective.
These are the original plans.
There is already a ton of parking there, running right up to the old academy building, and there is also a massive space for the outdoor broadcast compound. If they're now using the academy building for the Villa Live replacement, it's obvious it is going to need a bit more room around it, and it also now seems to have basketball courts, so it's almost certainly a case of moving around what was already there.
However, it also frees up what - if you look at the plans - is a massive area where Villa Live used to be.
Genuinely think this is much ado about nothing - as I said, I watched the fly through on the OS and it looks different to the way it does in this render. The actual truth will be in what they submit to the council.
(https://i.ibb.co/Mckt0C3/Screenshot-2023-07-20-at-13-49-05.png) (https://ibb.co/Mckt0C3)
Post by: maidstonevillain on July 20, 2023, 04:02:53 PM
Post by: eamonn on July 20, 2023, 04:28:59 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 05:16:04 PM
Why do we need basketball courts? Is this for Wes Edens' downtime on his one trip a year to B6 when he wants to shoot some hoops after a board meeting?
Cos basketball courts in the summer’s got girls there.
Post by: paul_e on July 20, 2023, 05:19:09 PM
Why do we need basketball courts? Is this for Wes Edens' downtime on his one trip a year to B6 when he wants to shoot some hoops after a board meeting?
There's one right in the area we'd be looking to dig up opposite the DE stand if we were looking rebuild/expand. I have no idea if that's played into their thinking though.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 05:30:00 PM
It’s another example why not to take the renders too seriously. They’re not planning documents.
The original one had a flower stand at the north / Trinity corner, for example.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 20, 2023, 05:33:10 PM
Why do we need basketball courts? Is this for Wes Edens' downtime on his one trip a year to B6 when he wants to shoot some hoops after a board meeting?
Maybe that's what Flin5tone was referring to when he said you could go downtown from Villa Park in less than 5 minutes.
Post by: paul_e on July 20, 2023, 06:09:36 PM
That would be years away.
It’s another example why not to take the renders too seriously. They’re not planning documents.
The original one had a flower stand at the north / Trinity corner, for example.
Of course, I just wonder if it'a nod towards doing more community related stuff than we had in the original design to grease the wheels a bit.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 20, 2023, 06:26:21 PM
That would be years away.
It’s another example why not to take the renders too seriously. They’re not planning documents.
The original one had a flower stand at the north / Trinity corner, for example.
Of course, I just wonder if it'a nod towards doing more community related stuff than we had in the original design to grease the wheels a bit.
Yeah, that is almost certainly it, being 'good neighbours'.
Post by: Des Little on July 20, 2023, 06:41:24 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 21, 2023, 09:08:28 PM
It's also reusing a Victorian building.
(https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.skyscrapercity.com/attachments/1689935991559-png.5532832/)
Post by: Pete3206 on July 21, 2023, 09:41:43 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 21, 2023, 09:42:37 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 21, 2023, 09:45:49 PM
Is there difference in sqm between The warehouse and Villa live ?
There must be because they originally wanted to house all the club's administrative function in Villa Live (which tbh I found a bit odd). That's now going in the stand.
Post by: Des Little on July 21, 2023, 10:03:31 PM
They never show these things when it's feckin freezing
Or with a massive queue of punters waiting to go in, a la Holte Suite
Post by: London Villan on July 21, 2023, 10:16:32 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 21, 2023, 10:31:57 PM
Just read this elsewhere, and it struck me as true, but I think the reuse of the old academy building will actually look better.
It's also reusing a Victorian building.
Good points and looks all right, to be fair.
Post by: purpletrousers on July 21, 2023, 10:37:02 PM
Just read this elsewhere, and it struck me as true, but I think the reuse of the old academy building will actually look better.
It's also reusing a Victorian building.
(https://www.skyscrapercity.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.skyscrapercity.com/attachments/1689935991559-png.5532832/)
So that’s where the fun zone has been right?
Do we know where it will move to?
Asking for a just 4yo preparing to take up her 3rd yr of being a ST holder and her lil’ Sis. The most important part of the day for them!
Post by: Des Little on July 22, 2023, 07:11:43 AM
Post by: amfy on July 22, 2023, 08:59:47 AM
We’d better get a move on to get those trees grown to hang the lights off.
When I visited Bodymoor Heath a few years ago I remember looking at the trees which were on the perimeter and remembering how they were newly planted when I first went there as a 13 year old. It was a bit sobering tbh.
Post by: VillaTim on July 22, 2023, 10:05:59 AM
I do like the retention of the old bus depot though
Post by: Percy McCarthy on July 22, 2023, 10:33:27 AM
Those renders of Aston on a balmy summer evening, where is the pissing rain, meat wagons and steaming piles of horse shit
I do like the retention of the old bus depot though
Are they doing something with that too? It’s an events space at the minute isn’t it? Majestic or summat.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 22, 2023, 10:38:14 AM
Post by: VillaTim on July 22, 2023, 10:43:19 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 22, 2023, 12:28:00 PM
Post by: VillaTim on July 22, 2023, 12:29:28 PM
Bus depot is further down the road, opposite sideyeah i know where you mean now , nearer to the roundabout by Witton Arms.
What was this original building that Villa own used for originally ? or is the clue in the new name for it
Post by: DeKuip on July 22, 2023, 12:50:58 PM
[/quote]
So that’s where the fun zone has been right?
Do we know where it will move to?
Asking for a just 4yo preparing to take up her 3rd yr of being a ST holder and her lil’ Sis. The most important part of the day for them!
[/quote]
Wherever they can charge the most. I don’t think they really want kids there.
Post by: VillaTim on July 22, 2023, 01:02:40 PM
So that’s where the fun zone has been right?
Do we know where it will move to?
Asking for a just 4yo preparing to take up her 3rd yr of being a ST holder and her lil’ Sis. The most important part of the day for them!
[/quote]
Wherever they can charge the most. I don’t think they really want kids there.
[/quote]
Kids are welcome in Zone 1 areas where they can enjoy full adult price tickets
Post by: Des Little on July 22, 2023, 01:27:16 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on July 22, 2023, 01:59:23 PM
So that’s where the fun zone has been right?
Do we know where it will move to?
The pitch.
Post by: Bad English on July 22, 2023, 05:29:04 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on July 22, 2023, 08:01:10 PM
Good observation that.
I’d like to see something that pays architectural homage to the old Trinity entrance.
Would be nice, but the Holte is a bit of a homage to the old Trinity Road stand isn’t it?
Post by: eamonn on July 22, 2023, 08:02:15 PM
Oh Birmingham!
So much to answer for
Post by: pauliewalnuts on July 22, 2023, 08:05:10 PM
Good observation that.
I’d like to see something that pays architectural homage to the old Trinity entrance.
Would be nice, but the Holte is a bit of a homage to the old Trinity Road stand isn’t it?
Yeah.
I think we over-do the homage thing in general.
If we need to pay homage in some way, make it more general and less specific - so, use brick of the colour the Victorians / Edwardians used rather than recreate what they built with it.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on July 22, 2023, 08:51:25 PM
Good observation that.
I’d like to see something that pays architectural homage to the old Trinity entrance.
Would be nice, but the Holte is a bit of a homage to the old Trinity Road stand isn’t it?
Yeah.
I think we over-do the homage thing in general.
If we need to pay homage in some way, make it more general and less specific - so, use brick of the colour the Victorians / Edwardians used rather than recreate what they built with it.
Exactly. (I've nicked this thought from someone, but I don't know who) We were pioneers back then. Let's be that again, rather than some kind of museum piece.
Post by: Risso on July 22, 2023, 08:56:46 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on July 22, 2023, 09:00:06 PM
If part of the attraction of being where we are is that it’s a historic ground at the bottom of the hill from a Grade 1 listed hall, rather than an identikit plastic bowl on a retail park, then I think it needs to at least try to look the part. It doesn’t have to be the football equivalent of a mock Tudor mansion, but it does need to at least have a nod to its past in my opinion.
I'm all for that, but building replicas of long-since demolished buildings isn't the answer.
Post by: Risso on July 22, 2023, 09:03:49 PM
If part of the attraction of being where we are is that it’s a historic ground at the bottom of the hill from a Grade 1 listed hall, rather than an identikit plastic bowl on a retail park, then I think it needs to at least try to look the part. It doesn’t have to be the football equivalent of a mock Tudor mansion, but it does need to at least have a nod to its past in my opinion.
I'm all for that, but building replicas of long-since demolished buildings isn't the answer.
No, I think the front of the Holte is a great approach and enough in the Victorian red brick swirly architecture. I’d like the new stand to have small elements of this built in, rather than just being a bland load of shit like the present North or the DE.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on July 22, 2023, 09:05:32 PM
If part of the attraction of being where we are is that it’s a historic ground at the bottom of the hill from a Grade 1 listed hall, rather than an identikit plastic bowl on a retail park, then I think it needs to at least try to look the part. It doesn’t have to be the football equivalent of a mock Tudor mansion, but it does need to at least have a nod to its past in my opinion.
I'm all for that, but building replicas of long-since demolished buildings isn't the answer.
No, I think the front of the Holte is a great approach and enough in the Victorian red brick swirly architecture. I’d like the new stand to have small elements of this built in, rather than just being a bland load of shit like the present North or the DE.
That sounds fine by me.
Post by: VillaTim on July 22, 2023, 09:11:39 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on July 22, 2023, 11:35:22 PM
If part of the attraction of being where we are is that it’s a historic ground at the bottom of the hill from a Grade 1 listed hall, rather than an identikit plastic bowl on a retail park, then I think it needs to at least try to look the part. It doesn’t have to be the football equivalent of a mock Tudor mansion, but it does need to at least have a nod to its past in my opinion.
I'm all for that, but building replicas of long-since demolished buildings isn't the answer.
No, I think the front of the Holte is a great approach and enough in the Victorian red brick swirly architecture. I’d like the new stand to have small elements of this built in, rather than just being a bland load of shit like the present North or the DE.
I know what you mean and agree that the front of the Holte is good. Would it work having it at both ends though? Agree that it would be far better than some non-descript, bland design though.
Post by: purpletrousers on July 23, 2023, 12:18:31 AM
So that’s where the fun zone has been right?
Do we know where it will move to?
The pitch.
Oh Birmingham!
Liking the responses and the impressive quote fail, but increasingly anxious if a lack of a fun zone is going to make things a bit tricky for me; have DM’d the Twitter support, will repeat back.
Post by: Drummond on July 23, 2023, 07:10:03 AM
If part of the attraction of being where we are is that it’s a historic ground at the bottom of the hill from a Grade 1 listed hall, rather than an identikit plastic bowl on a retail park, then I think it needs to at least try to look the part. It doesn’t have to be the football equivalent of a mock Tudor mansion, but it does need to at least have a nod to its past in my opinion.
I'm all for that, but building replicas of long-since demolished buildings isn't the answer.
No, I think the front of the Holte is a great approach and enough in the Victorian red brick swirly architecture. I’d like the new stand to have small elements of this built in, rather than just being a bland load of shit like the present North or the DE.
I know what you mean and agree that the front of the Holte is good. Would it work having it at both ends though? Agree that it would be far better than some non-descript, bland design though.
I think Risso means more like a three bed semi with mock Tudor beams on it.
Post by: tomd2103 on July 23, 2023, 12:34:21 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 23, 2023, 12:35:39 PM
(https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=10231421737597113)
Taken from the 1966 World Cup game between West Germany and Spain. What was the building in the corner between the Trinity Road and Witton End?
The old club offices. They were demolished in 1980.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on July 23, 2023, 12:40:14 PM
(https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=10231421737597113)
Taken from the 1966 World Cup game between West Germany and Spain. What was the building in the corner between the Trinity Road and Witton End?
The old club offices. They were demolished in 1980.
Yes i remember Simon Ingles. bemoaning this decision. As it could have been utilised far better , but i guess that was the times
Post by: tomd2103 on July 23, 2023, 01:15:39 PM
(https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=10231421737597113)
Taken from the 1966 World Cup game between West Germany and Spain. What was the building in the corner between the Trinity Road and Witton End?
The old club offices. They were demolished in 1980.
Cheers Dave. Can't recall seeing them in pictures before. Guess the old club shop was then built on that site, as I remember it being around there?
Post by: dave.woodhall on July 23, 2023, 01:16:38 PM
(https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=10231421737597113)
Taken from the 1966 World Cup game between West Germany and Spain. What was the building in the corner between the Trinity Road and Witton End?
The old club offices. They were demolished in 1980.
Cheers Dave. Can't recall seeing them in pictures before. Guess the old club shop was then built on that site, as I remember it being around there?
I think they were further down, past the Lions Club.
Post by: London Villan on July 23, 2023, 03:15:19 PM
Post by: The Edge on July 23, 2023, 07:01:07 PM
Was that the same building where you could get food at half time? I think I remember going in there with my dad but I could be wrong.(https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=10231421737597113)
Taken from the 1966 World Cup game between West Germany and Spain. What was the building in the corner between the Trinity Road and Witton End?
The old club offices. They were demolished in 1980.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on July 23, 2023, 08:27:21 PM
Yes. Seem to recall TEA in large white letters on a brick wallWas that the same building where you could get food at half time? I think I remember going in there with my dad but I could be wrong.(https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=10231421737597113)
Taken from the 1966 World Cup game between West Germany and Spain. What was the building in the corner between the Trinity Road and Witton End?
The old club offices. They were demolished in 1980.
Post by: bobcat on July 28, 2023, 11:47:27 AM
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0283-1899538af7fa-7376fca03736-1000--italy-and-turkiye-request-to-merge-euro-2032-bids/
Post by: eamonn on July 28, 2023, 11:52:07 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 28, 2023, 11:53:49 AM
UK and Ireland 2028 bid will now be unopposed. Villa Park will host international games again.Great news.
https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0283-1899538af7fa-7376fca03736-1000--italy-and-turkiye-request-to-merge-euro-2032-bids/
Post by: Dogtanian on July 28, 2023, 12:08:56 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 28, 2023, 01:58:00 PM
It's only 5 years to the games and there's still seats available! Disgusting.😃
Post by: astonvilla82 on July 28, 2023, 02:00:22 PM
Post by: Drummond on July 28, 2023, 02:29:44 PM
Post by: Nelly on July 28, 2023, 02:40:24 PM
Post by: VillaTim on July 28, 2023, 02:50:02 PM
Let's hope this is the clincher to get Witton Station sorted.and the Witton Upper concourse (please !!!!!!!!)
Post by: Dogtanian on July 28, 2023, 02:50:56 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on July 28, 2023, 04:21:14 PM
I've no idea what they could do about this given the size. They could reduce the beer queue by having those vedors with beer in rucksacks I guess, but that's about it. Also, the toilets are so inadequate I'm not sure you'd want people drinking much more up there!Let's hope this is the clincher to get Witton Station sorted.and the Witton Upper concourse (please !!!!!!!!)
Post by: Flin5tone on July 28, 2023, 04:43:01 PM
Post by: The Edge on July 28, 2023, 04:55:23 PM
Aston Hall could be used as a more civilised fan zone, could be good for the area. Coffee and cake etc.I can see it now. Morris dancers, dancing round the maypole and a pig roast.
Post by: Drummond on July 28, 2023, 05:29:46 PM
Post by: Flin5tone on July 28, 2023, 05:35:05 PM
Perfect fayre for the common man.
Haha that made me laugh.
Obviously if they sold booze it would be better but with that you attract potential for trouble . I wonder why they don't open it for hot drinks and food on a villa match day even. Good earner
Post by: dcdavecollett on July 30, 2023, 01:25:18 AM
Post by: Des Little on July 30, 2023, 07:27:04 AM
I've no idea what they could do about this given the size. They could reduce the beer queue by having those vedors with beer in rucksacks I guess, but that's about it. Also, the toilets are so inadequate I'm not sure you'd want people drinking much more up there!Let's hope this is the clincher to get Witton Station sorted.and the Witton Upper concourse (please !!!!!!!!)
Given the fact that there is more money to be made from ‘executive’ seating and lounges etc, I’d expect to see the boxes taken out of the Witton Lane, and that whole space used for lounge, bars etc to service both upper and lower tiers. This does of course mean that middle block seats will be charged at an (even more) premium rate.
Post by: Ads on August 07, 2023, 12:07:38 PM
Post by: Dazvillain on September 05, 2023, 10:56:50 AM
Does this jeopardise our stand reconstruction/ witton station development / euro host ground chances ?
Post by: Lastfootstamper on September 05, 2023, 11:03:01 AM
Post by: dekko on September 05, 2023, 11:26:57 AM
Post by: Gareth on September 05, 2023, 12:05:28 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on September 05, 2023, 12:26:22 PM
Post by: Nev on September 05, 2023, 12:29:59 PM
Post by: London Villan on September 05, 2023, 12:35:22 PM
Post by: Ads on September 05, 2023, 02:57:53 PM
The reason why the club is seeking to maximise revenues is because we lag dramatically behind our peers on commercial income. The redevelopment is a large part of addressing that, but not the only part. Quite why you'd conclude it isn't happening, I'm not sure.
As for BCC, they're appallingly run. As bad as any of the shambles in London, only London councils have the benefit of being smaller and totally incompetent, rather than absolutely huge an utterly incompetent. Local Government is a strange place.
Post by: paul_e on September 05, 2023, 03:12:31 PM
Network Rail own the station, a Dutch company runs the franchise and WM Combined Authority deliver funding.
The reason why the club is seeking to maximise revenues is because we lag dramatically behind our peers on commercial income. The redevelopment is a large part of addressing that, but not the only part. Quite why you'd conclude it isn't happening, I'm not sure.
As for BCC, they're appallingly run. As bad as any of the shambles in London, only London councils have the benefit of being smaller and totally incompetent, rather than absolutely huge an utterly incompetent. Local Government is a strange place.
Local government does seem to attract an unusually high number of staff who tick boxes (always on time, rarely off sick, don't cause any drama) but actually bring nothing to the job. I worked with the IT team for the best part of 5 years, and amongst the handful of genuinely competent people there were loads whose entire job amounted to taking requests, sitting on them for a bit whilst doing irrelevant busy work and then passing it to someone who could actually fix it just before it became urgent.
The whole thing was supported by most of the middle management being so useless that they either didn't know there were any problems or they created the problems to make themselves look like thy were doing everything just to hold thing together.
It was best summed up a few months before I left when they promoted a woman who'd been made effectively redundant because so many of the schools she was supposed to work with refused to deal with her. Couldn't sack her so decided instead to move her to a job where she couldn't do any more damage, and give her a big payrise.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 05, 2023, 04:42:34 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on September 05, 2023, 05:40:21 PM
majority of which I wouldn't let run a bath,all they want is yes men or womenNetwork Rail own the station, a Dutch company runs the franchise and WM Combined Authority deliver funding.
The reason why the club is seeking to maximise revenues is because we lag dramatically behind our peers on commercial income. The redevelopment is a large part of addressing that, but not the only part. Quite why you'd conclude it isn't happening, I'm not sure.
As for BCC, they're appallingly run. As bad as any of the shambles in London, only London councils have the benefit of being smaller and totally incompetent, rather than absolutely huge an utterly incompetent. Local Government is a strange place.
Local government does seem to attract an unusually high number of staff who tick boxes (always on time, rarely off sick, don't cause any drama) but actually bring nothing to the job. I worked with the IT team for the best part of 5 years, and amongst the handful of genuinely competent people there were loads whose entire job amounted to taking requests, sitting on them for a bit whilst doing irrelevant busy work and then passing it to someone who could actually fix it just before it became urgent.
The whole thing was supported by most of the middle management being so useless that they either didn't know there were any problems or they created the problems to make themselves look like thy were doing everything just to hold thing together.
It was best summed up a few months before I left when they promoted a woman who'd been made effectively redundant because so many of the schools she was supposed to work with refused to deal with her. Couldn't sack her so decided instead to move her to a job where she couldn't do any more damage, and give her a big payrise.
Post by: OCD on September 05, 2023, 08:34:30 PM
Post by: paul_e on September 05, 2023, 08:47:29 PM
No idea what it will mean but Birmingham City Council declaring itself bankrupt isn't going to help.
As someone said the railway improvements are on the train company, the ground is on us and the access elements are on the combined authority which uses different budgets so it shouldn't make much difference really.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 05, 2023, 09:47:57 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 05, 2023, 09:56:05 PM
Birmingham City Council won't have anything to do with paying to upgrade the station.
Exactly. Their role is merely as facilitators, and if they’ve got any sense they’ll do everything they can to help, if only to attract the Euros and related tourism.
Even outside that, they’ve got a fully-financed million-strong a year visitor attraction in a deprived inner-city area. They should be doing everything they can to encourage it.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 05, 2023, 10:01:58 PM
The problem is a mixture of bad financial and project management over 10+ years around the IT system and the equal pay claim, but worth pointing out, it's not been a Labour council all that time, they're all guilty.
On top of that, the crushing grind of austerity as London outsourced its spending problems to the provinces has been felt in the biggest council more than most.
I wonder if the Tories have the same approach to, say, Woking council, way smaller budget than Brum, but 1.2bn - ie even more - in the hole, and Tory led.
Post by: paul_e on September 05, 2023, 10:09:04 PM
It is easy to assume that the council is a disaster in everything they do. Far from it. On the contrary, they're visionary in some of the stuff they've done over the years, and that goes back to Joseph Chamberlain.
The problem is a mixture of bad financial and project management over 10+ years around the IT system and the equal pay claim, but worth pointing out, it's not been a Labour council all that time, they're all guilty.
On top of that, the crushing grind of austerity as London outsourced its spending problems to the provinces has been felt in the biggest council more than most.
I wonder if the Tories have the same approach to, say, Woking council, way smaller budget than Brum, but 1.2bn - ie even more - in the hole, and Tory led.
Thurrock is the worst council in the country by miles, some of their financial decisions have been so poor that it's hard to imagine they were made in good faith, the solar power investments in particular are either corrupt or alarmingly incompetent. It's like the real-life version of the springfield monorail.
Post by: Risso on September 05, 2023, 10:24:25 PM
Post by: brontebilly on September 06, 2023, 08:08:18 AM
It is easy to assume that the council is a disaster in everything they do. Far from it. On the contrary, they're visionary in some of the stuff they've done over the years, and that goes back to Joseph Chamberlain.
The problem is a mixture of bad financial and project management over 10+ years around the IT system and the equal pay claim, but worth pointing out, it's not been a Labour council all that time, they're all guilty.
On top of that, the crushing grind of austerity as London outsourced its spending problems to the provinces has been felt in the biggest council more than most.
I wonder if the Tories have the same approach to, say, Woking council, way smaller budget than Brum, but 1.2bn - ie even more - in the hole, and Tory led.
As a matter of interest what was the IT Programme that caused such dramas?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 06, 2023, 08:32:53 AM
I think it’s a British disease whereby large organisations bring in consultants / third parties for these projects, but the people in charge at the commissioning organisation have no actual idea of what they are doing.
It’s not just public sector either. A few years ago a friend of mine was on a large project for BT. For about two years he charged them top daily rate and 90% of the time was doing absolutely nothing because they couldn’t make their minds up what they wanted.
Going back 25 years I worked as full time staff at the bbc. I did next to nothing, basically just took on loads of freelance projects I did in work time. The bit I worked in, making content for the OU, had about 20 producers. Some of them had been there 30 years since the OU was founded and basically spent most of their time in the office bar sitting around drinking cheap beer.
They then got rid of most of them (with eye watering redundancy pay offs as they’d been there so long) and there was absolutely no adverse effect on our output.
Post by: paul_e on September 06, 2023, 08:53:36 AM
The entire thing is a near perfect example of what not to do at almost every stage. It's not on the level of the NHS rollout but that's about the only worse run project I know of.
Post by: oldhill_avfc on September 06, 2023, 11:08:55 AM
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
Post by: simboy on September 06, 2023, 11:25:59 AM
I sat on a national committee where this topic would be discussed most months, the MoJ would tell us it was all going hunky dory, ... I sat on that committee from 2013 to 2022.
Guess what? Still not operating properly, even today.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 06, 2023, 11:29:52 AM
Post by: The Edge on September 06, 2023, 11:31:55 AM
Short answer is they were rolling out an oracle based system but failed in almost every aspect of project management so there was huge feature creep, very little stakeholder buy-in and huge revisions in testing that went on for years.I work in the NHS and BCC is my local council. My nickname is lucky.
The entire thing is a near perfect example of what not to do at almost every stage. It's not on the level of the NHS rollout but that's about the only worse run project I know of.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 06, 2023, 11:32:06 AM
Should have gone with SAP.
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
No matter how much more SAP would have cost, if they'd done it in Salesforce, it would have cost more.
I've never come across a product that requires the constant throwing of ever increasing money more than Salesforce. No wonder Marc Benioff is so rich.
They also have a sales network which is freakishly devoted to the company, like a cross between drug reps pushing Oxycontin and a cult.
I hate that product.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on September 06, 2023, 11:39:11 AM
Should have gone with SAP.
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
No matter how much more SAP would have cost, if they'd done it in Salesforce, it would have cost more.
I've never come across a product that requires the constant throwing of ever increasing money more than Salesforce. No wonder Marc Benioff is so rich.
They also have a sales network which is freakishly devoted to the company, like a cross between drug reps pushing Oxycontin and a cult.
I hate that product.
It's also really shit to use.
Post by: OCD on September 06, 2023, 11:44:18 AM
No idea.
I think it’s a British disease whereby large organisations bring in consultants / third parties for these projects, but the people in charge at the commissioning organisation have no actual idea of what they are doing.
It’s not just public sector either. A few years ago a friend of mine was on a large project for BT. For about two years he charged them top daily rate and 90% of the time was doing absolutely nothing because they couldn’t make their minds up what they wanted.
Going back 25 years I worked as full time staff at the bbc. I did next to nothing, basically just took on loads of freelance projects I did in work time. The bit I worked in, making content for the OU, had about 20 producers. Some of them had been there 30 years since the OU was founded and basically spent most of their time in the office bar sitting around drinking cheap beer.
They then got rid of most of them (with eye watering redundancy pay offs as they’d been there so long) and there was absolutely no adverse effect on our output.
Seeing this through my Dad atm. He's a consultant working at SSE. He's just left Severn Trent because they had nothing for him and he got bored. SSE have got a big project but they haven't got their ducks in a row, so again he's got bored and is probably going to apply to move to a different project within SSE.
Incidentally, my Dad was involved in a £20bn IT with the NHS and he said back then that it was a waste of money. There's so much waste in the economy.
As for public spending, I wonder about checks and balances. The inefficiency is mind boggling and if some of it is questionably corrupt, then there needs to be some oversight on local councils to make sure public money is being used responsibly.
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2023, 11:59:00 AM
Should have gone with SAP.
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
No matter how much more SAP would have cost, if they'd done it in Salesforce, it would have cost more.
I've never come across a product that requires the constant throwing of ever increasing money more than Salesforce. No wonder Marc Benioff is so rich.
They also have a sales network which is freakishly devoted to the company, like a cross between drug reps pushing Oxycontin and a cult.
I hate that product.
One of my daughter's friends is the head of sales for EMEA (whatever that actually means) for Salesforce. A slimier, bigger wanker you will never meet.
Post by: LeeB on September 06, 2023, 12:02:14 PM
Should have gone with SAP.
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
No matter how much more SAP would have cost, if they'd done it in Salesforce, it would have cost more.
I've never come across a product that requires the constant throwing of ever increasing money more than Salesforce. No wonder Marc Benioff is so rich.
They also have a sales network which is freakishly devoted to the company, like a cross between drug reps pushing Oxycontin and a cult.
I hate that product.
One of my daughter's friends is the head of sales for EMEA (whatever that actually means) for Salesforce. A slimier, bigger wanker you will never meet.
In a just world, IT software sales people would be employed to clean the sewage from our rivers but only using their mouths.
Post by: paul_e on September 06, 2023, 12:12:28 PM
Should have gone with SAP.
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
It was to replace SAP.
Surely the worst roll out of public sector IT is the Post Office system that wound up putting innocent people in prison.
True, there's loads of good examples but the NHS one not only cost a fortune but it also got abandoned after 9years of failing to implement it - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn
It's one of those stories that I'm amazed most people seem to have missed.
Post by: itbrvilla on September 06, 2023, 12:52:08 PM
Where's the Audit Commission when you need it?No idea.
I think it’s a British disease whereby large organisations bring in consultants / third parties for these projects, but the people in charge at the commissioning organisation have no actual idea of what they are doing.
It’s not just public sector either. A few years ago a friend of mine was on a large project for BT. For about two years he charged them top daily rate and 90% of the time was doing absolutely nothing because they couldn’t make their minds up what they wanted.
Going back 25 years I worked as full time staff at the bbc. I did next to nothing, basically just took on loads of freelance projects I did in work time. The bit I worked in, making content for the OU, had about 20 producers. Some of them had been there 30 years since the OU was founded and basically spent most of their time in the office bar sitting around drinking cheap beer.
They then got rid of most of them (with eye watering redundancy pay offs as they’d been there so long) and there was absolutely no adverse effect on our output.
Seeing this through my Dad atm. He's a consultant working at SSE. He's just left Severn Trent because they had nothing for him and he got bored. SSE have got a big project but they haven't got their ducks in a row, so again he's got bored and is probably going to apply to move to a different project within SSE.
Incidentally, my Dad was involved in a £20bn IT with the NHS and he said back then that it was a waste of money. There's so much waste in the economy.
As for public spending, I wonder about checks and balances. The inefficiency is mind boggling and if some of it is questionably corrupt, then there needs to be some oversight on local councils to make sure public money is being used responsibly.
Post by: The Edge on September 06, 2023, 02:13:14 PM
Whenever anything goes tits up in the NHS the management response is always the same. Just shoehorn in yet another layer of middle management.Should have gone with SAP.
Same old penny pinching tories/lefties/........
It was to replace SAP.Surely the worst roll out of public sector IT is the Post Office system that wound up putting innocent people in prison.
True, there's loads of good examples but the NHS one not only cost a fortune but it also got abandoned after 9years of failing to implement it - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18/nhs-records-system-10bn
It's one of those stories that I'm amazed most people seem to have missed.
Post by: OCD on September 06, 2023, 02:30:20 PM
Post by: brontebilly on September 06, 2023, 03:17:04 PM
No idea.
I think it’s a British disease whereby large organisations bring in consultants / third parties for these projects, but the people in charge at the commissioning organisation have no actual idea of what they are doing.
It’s not just public sector either. A few years ago a friend of mine was on a large project for BT. For about two years he charged them top daily rate and 90% of the time was doing absolutely nothing because they couldn’t make their minds up what they wanted.
Going back 25 years I worked as full time staff at the bbc. I did next to nothing, basically just took on loads of freelance projects I did in work time. The bit I worked in, making content for the OU, had about 20 producers. Some of them had been there 30 years since the OU was founded and basically spent most of their time in the office bar sitting around drinking cheap beer.
They then got rid of most of them (with eye watering redundancy pay offs as they’d been there so long) and there was absolutely no adverse effect on our output.
That's not a uniquely British disease nor public sector specific in my experience. The problem I've seen at first hand when it comes to public sector management (or ex semi states that still have the same culture) is a complete inability to make hard decisions in a timely fashion so things just drift along aimlessly. Responsibility and accountability can be dirty words for the Teflon types that stick around at middle management in these places, easier to spend more money on consultants for a "independent review". There are colossal Tech programme failures in private industry too but generally the plug gets pulled a lot quicker under the guise of a re-org or C suite shuffle usually.
I cut my teeth on that BT NHS programme many moons ago. A contractor's wet dream!
Post by: algy on September 06, 2023, 04:08:31 PM
The funding model for these things seems to be more based around capital spend (rather than ongoing annual spend) going towards software development. That's absolutely fine to work with in my book - I'm a software developer within the NHS and accept that as part & parcel of the work - but I don't think software development is ever done in a way that really supports that.
To me, public sector software needs to follow a model closer to how open source software is developed, where you might have a small team (maybe just one person) that steers the software's direction from a technical standpoint. Then funding is used to pay 3rd party contractors to build a single, specific feature for that software. They are in effect directed by a single stakeholder (who would use that feature) and the person/team who steers the technical side of the software. This would allow the software to be developed far more organically, with features/requirements being able to be designed and specced out completely independently from the 'build' process.
I/we have been trialling this approach within a piece of software within the NHS, and I've become increasingly evangelical about it - the way public sector software is built can be rethought and reengineered from the ground up to absolutely maximise the value-for-money aspects from contractors, whilst really leaning in to the existing expertise in whatever public sector body it is.
I dunno, I don't like to criticise others really. They do their best, and it's rare for anything to be attempted in bad faith IMO. But I do believe there's a better way for public sector IT to be 'done', even if it turns out not to be my way.
--
And herein ends my sermon on the mount about computer programming. :P
Post by: Risso on September 06, 2023, 04:39:31 PM
Post by: Clampy on September 08, 2023, 01:47:18 PM
Post by: Gareth on September 08, 2023, 02:30:29 PM
I know we like to stray off topic, but this international break must be the most random ever. Smurfs and the NHS IT system!
Having worked on the NHS IT projects there were plenty of smurfs out there working on and users.
My favourite was the lady who told me she couldn’t get her ‘new computer thing’ to work….walked over, opened her desk drawer, took out the mouse, plugged it in and showed her how to use it. Expecting people to go from green screen dumb terminal where navigation was by the tab key to a PC overnight was a massive stretch for some.
Post by: algy on September 08, 2023, 02:57:58 PM
The computer system for the electrodiagnostic (eye) testing in Manchester is a thing of beauty. I'm sure it was cutting edge at some point, but all of the results are saved to 5 1/4" floppy disks, which then have to be taken to a separate (also ancient) computer in another room to covert those to more modern 3 1/2" floppies, which then have to be taken to a third computer - IIRC running Windows 95 - which is then used to copy the data first from the floppy to a hard drive, then from the hard drive to somewhere on the network. From there it gets picked up by a more modern machine, and where they write a letter containing the results in MS Word, then print it off and file it in a beige folder. Not sure where it goes after that.I know we like to stray off topic, but this international break must be the most random ever. Smurfs and the NHS IT system!
Having worked on the NHS IT projects there were plenty of smurfs out there working on and users.
My favourite was the lady who told me she couldn’t get her ‘new computer thing’ to work….walked over, opened her desk drawer, took out the mouse, plugged it in and showed her how to use it. Expecting people to go from green screen dumb terminal where navigation was by the tab key to a PC overnight was a massive stretch for some.
Post by: Gareth on September 08, 2023, 04:02:55 PM
The computer system for the electrodiagnostic (eye) testing in Manchester is a thing of beauty. I'm sure it was cutting edge at some point, but all of the results are saved to 5 1/4" floppy disks, which then have to be taken to a separate (also ancient) computer in another room to covert those to more modern 3 1/2" floppies, which then have to be taken to a third computer - IIRC running Windows 95 - which is then used to copy the data first from the floppy to a hard drive, then from the hard drive to somewhere on the network. From there it gets picked up by a more modern machine, and where they write a letter containing the results in MS Word, then print it off and file it in a beige folder. Not sure where it goes after that.I know we like to stray off topic, but this international break must be the most random ever. Smurfs and the NHS IT system!
Having worked on the NHS IT projects there were plenty of smurfs out there working on and users.
My favourite was the lady who told me she couldn’t get her ‘new computer thing’ to work….walked over, opened her desk drawer, took out the mouse, plugged it in and showed her how to use it. Expecting people to go from green screen dumb terminal where navigation was by the tab key to a PC overnight was a massive stretch for some.
Brilliant, to think they spent 10 years thinking they were getting a ‘supercomputer’ that did it all rather than looking at integrating existing systems-that sounds awesomely efficient algy :-)
Post by: astonvilla82 on September 08, 2023, 05:03:41 PM
Post by: Chris Smith on September 08, 2023, 07:23:19 PM
I think public sector IT comes under an awful lot of criticism. Some of which is deserved, but some consists of forced missteps.
The funding model for these things seems to be more based around capital spend (rather than ongoing annual spend) going towards software development. That's absolutely fine to work with in my book - I'm a software developer within the NHS and accept that as part & parcel of the work - but I don't think software development is ever done in a way that really supports that.
To me, public sector software needs to follow a model closer to how open source software is developed, where you might have a small team (maybe just one person) that steers the software's direction from a technical standpoint. Then funding is used to pay 3rd party contractors to build a single, specific feature for that software. They are in effect directed by a single stakeholder (who would use that feature) and the person/team who steers the technical side of the software. This would allow the software to be developed far more organically, with features/requirements being able to be designed and specced out completely independently from the 'build' process.
I/we have been trialling this approach within a piece of software within the NHS, and I've become increasingly evangelical about it - the way public sector software is built can be rethought and reengineered from the ground up to absolutely maximise the value-for-money aspects from contractors, whilst really leaning in to the existing expertise in whatever public sector body it is.
I dunno, I don't like to criticise others really. They do their best, and it's rare for anything to be attempted in bad faith IMO. But I do believe there's a better way for public sector IT to be 'done', even if it turns out not to be my way.
--
And herein ends my sermon on the mount about computer programming. :P
I spent most of my working life in public sector IT. The organisation I have recently left has spent the last 5 years implementing along similar lines to you describe. It involved trying to create an integrated national system from dozens of disparate packages built on a variety of platforms over the previous 25 years as formerly separate agencies were amalgamated. It is roughly a 25/75% split between internal and public facing. We haven’t used contractors but instead hired on fixed term contracts as required.
It has been done by breaking it down into the basic functions and releasing these on a rolling programme whilst simultaneously running down the legacy systems. There’s oversight from a central body to ensure compatibility and a common look and feel but each team works largely as a self-contained entity. It has, to date, worked extremely well but with a few years still to go the worry is that funding will not be maintained and that it ends up with compromises and politicians then blame officials when it doesn’t do everything promised.
Post by: algy on September 09, 2023, 09:43:27 AM
I'm unreasonably excited by that. The whole thing for us started maybe a year before the pandemic - the first ideas of how to develop a piece of software where funding for it was highly variable. And I'd taken a kind of extremist view (based on a book - The Cathedral and the Bazaar) that maybe if it was treated as an open source project, not so much around releasing the code itself but in modelling how a suitably interested person would add a single feature they wanted, then maybe that would fit in with funding - but rather than the doctor programming the feature themselves, they'd pay some external agency £x to do that bit for them.I think public sector IT comes under an awful lot of criticism. Some of which is deserved, but some consists of forced missteps.
The funding model for these things seems to be more based around capital spend (rather than ongoing annual spend) going towards software development. That's absolutely fine to work with in my book - I'm a software developer within the NHS and accept that as part & parcel of the work - but I don't think software development is ever done in a way that really supports that.
To me, public sector software needs to follow a model closer to how open source software is developed, where you might have a small team (maybe just one person) that steers the software's direction from a technical standpoint. Then funding is used to pay 3rd party contractors to build a single, specific feature for that software. They are in effect directed by a single stakeholder (who would use that feature) and the person/team who steers the technical side of the software. This would allow the software to be developed far more organically, with features/requirements being able to be designed and specced out completely independently from the 'build' process.
I/we have been trialling this approach within a piece of software within the NHS, and I've become increasingly evangelical about it - the way public sector software is built can be rethought and reengineered from the ground up to absolutely maximise the value-for-money aspects from contractors, whilst really leaning in to the existing expertise in whatever public sector body it is.
I dunno, I don't like to criticise others really. They do their best, and it's rare for anything to be attempted in bad faith IMO. But I do believe there's a better way for public sector IT to be 'done', even if it turns out not to be my way.
--
And herein ends my sermon on the mount about computer programming. :P
I spent most of my working life in public sector IT. The organisation I have recently left has spent the last 5 years implementing along similar lines to you describe. It involved trying to create an integrated national system from dozens of disparate packages built on a variety of platforms over the previous 25 years as formerly separate agencies were amalgamated. It is roughly a 25/75% split between internal and public facing. We haven’t used contractors but instead hired on fixed term contracts as required.
It has been done by breaking it down into the basic functions and releasing these on a rolling programme whilst simultaneously running down the legacy systems. There’s oversight from a central body to ensure compatibility and a common look and feel but each team works largely as a self-contained entity. It has, to date, worked extremely well but with a few years still to go the worry is that funding will not be maintained and that it ends up with compromises and politicians then blame officials when it doesn’t do everything promised.
So far it'd worked out pretty well, but you're always a bit - is it just because it's these specific people, or this specific situation, or just dumb luck, that everything's gone well? So, hearing that ... Well, it feels like maybe it's not just this one isolated case and it actually works pretty well as a model.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 13, 2023, 12:56:20 PM
Incredible that this is as far as it has got thus far.
Post by: Hookeysmith on September 13, 2023, 01:59:15 PM
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 02:04:12 PM
Andy Street proudly tweeting today that he’s commissioned a study to look at options for Witton station.
Incredible that this is as far as it has got thus far.
“That’s why we’re working on how best to redevelop the station by undertaking a feasibility study that will give us a clear indication of the funding required and the options ahead of us. This is just the first step as we will then need to put together a strong business case and find the money to make this happen but nonetheless it does bring us a step closer to delivering a premier railway station."
I think I've said this before, but I bet you a shiny new pound that the North Stand as it is now will be exactly the same in 5 years time.
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 13, 2023, 02:17:03 PM
The train station at witton is a complete disgrace, whether it is for the Villa improvements or not it needs doing
You can build the biggest, newest and shiniest station, you can have state of the art trains and the SAS can be marshaling the queues but until Proofhouse Junction is sorted getting back to New Street will still be an embarrassment.
Post by: London Villan on September 13, 2023, 02:48:04 PM
Andy Street proudly tweeting today that he’s commissioned a study to look at options for Witton station.
Incredible that this is as far as it has got thus far.
“That’s why we’re working on how best to redevelop the station by undertaking a feasibility study that will give us a clear indication of the funding required and the options ahead of us. This is just the first step as we will then need to put together a strong business case and find the money to make this happen but nonetheless it does bring us a step closer to delivering a premier railway station."
I think I've said this before, but I bet you a shiny new pound that the North Stand as it is now will be exactly the same in 5 years time.
This doesn't sound promising... look how long it's taken to reopen the Camp Hill line stations - let alone the new tracks to allow them to use Moor Street. It's been talked about for years and years. Same with the Metro to the Airport. Financially all three of those probably offer better returns than spending tens of millions on Witton...
Post by: chrisw1 on September 13, 2023, 03:47:12 PM
I know we like to stray off topic, but this international break must be the most random ever. Smurfs and the NHS IT system!
IT Smurf...
(https://i.ibb.co/gmPsksD/IT-Smurf.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gmPsksD)
NHS Smurf
(https://i.ibb.co/sHycjWy/NHS-Smurf.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sHycjWy)
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 04:00:41 PM
Andy Street proudly tweeting today that he’s commissioned a study to look at options for Witton station.
Incredible that this is as far as it has got thus far.
“That’s why we’re working on how best to redevelop the station by undertaking a feasibility study that will give us a clear indication of the funding required and the options ahead of us. This is just the first step as we will then need to put together a strong business case and find the money to make this happen but nonetheless it does bring us a step closer to delivering a premier railway station."
I think I've said this before, but I bet you a shiny new pound that the North Stand as it is now will be exactly the same in 5 years time.
This doesn't sound promising... look how long it's taken to reopen the Camp Hill line stations - let alone the new tracks to allow them to use Moor Street. It's been talked about for years and years. Same with the Metro to the Airport. Financially all three of those probably offer better returns than spending tens of millions on Witton...
It's one of the shittest things I've ever read. A year after the plans are revealed, he's now got round to commissioning a report. Not actually producing a report, but talking about getting a report. And then they've got to look for the money. So let's say 18 months to do the study and report on it, another 18 months to fuck about getting the funding in place, then a couple of years to actually build everything.
Post by: TheMalandro on September 13, 2023, 04:01:31 PM
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 04:10:26 PM
If I was either of the owners, I’d be looking for building land. The amount of money that needs spending on Villa Park, the transportation issues and the site limitations - there is certainly a case for a new stadium elsewhere.
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Yep, I've said the same thing lots of times. Everton managed it and they've got the sea on one side!
Post by: paul_e on September 13, 2023, 04:14:10 PM
If I was either of the owners, I’d be looking for building land. The amount of money that needs spending on Villa Park, the transportation issues and the site limitations - there is certainly a case for a new stadium elsewhere.
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Yep, I've said the same thing lots of times. Everton managed it and they've got the sea on one side!
yep, that's been my thinking as well. Villa Park is great and it would be a massive shame to move but staying there comes with its problems. I'd want something closer to the city centre though, not out of town somewhere.
Post by: Ads on September 13, 2023, 04:24:19 PM
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 04:31:12 PM
We break ground after the Foo Fighters concert, upgrade or not.
I would assume the upgraded transport is a condition of the planning permission, so if firm plans for the station aren't in place, they won't be allowed to do that. They can probably crack on with tarting up the Villa Live or whatever the new version is called, but nothing else.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 13, 2023, 04:31:31 PM
I think we just need to crack on with it and go down the coaches' route and maybe find some more car parking partners and hope the train station catches up in due course
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 04:34:21 PM
The thing is, I don't see any significant help coming from the Council any time soon so a relocation is probably off the table too.
I think we just need to crack on with it and go down the coaches' route and maybe find some more car parking partners and hope the train station catches up in due course
I'm only guessing, but similar to my comment above, this would probably require another revision of planning, and my guess is it would be turned down. They have to say how the plans would affect existing traffic flows and the overall effect on the local area, and so getting 50K+ fans in and out quickly is a huge part of that.
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 13, 2023, 04:38:35 PM
If I was either of the owners, I’d be looking for building land. The amount of money that needs spending on Villa Park, the transportation issues and the site limitations - there is certainly a case for a new stadium elsewhere.
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Yep, I've said the same thing lots of times. Everton managed it and they've got the sea on one side!
yep, that's been my thinking as well. Villa Park is great and it would be a massive shame to move but staying there comes with its problems. I'd want something closer to the city centre though, not out of town somewhere.
Is there any point in asking where?
Post by: chrisw1 on September 13, 2023, 04:41:03 PM
We're talking an extra 8k max match going fans, a fair proportion of which - probably half - will be corporate (either directly in the North stand or indirectly by increased corporate in the Trinity)The thing is, I don't see any significant help coming from the Council any time soon so a relocation is probably off the table too.
I think we just need to crack on with it and go down the coaches' route and maybe find some more car parking partners and hope the train station catches up in due course
I'm only guessing, but similar to my comment above, this would probably require another revision of planning, and my guess is it would be turned down. They have to say how the plans would affect existing traffic flows and the overall effect on the local area, and so getting 50K+ fans in and out quickly is a huge part of that.
Couldn't a case be made that corporate fans are more likely to leave at staggered times and the remaining 4k ish will be 50/50 car and public transport, which we can try to cover with coaches and parking?
I'm stretching here, but BCC are culpable with their inaction, can't we find a way around it in the interim?
Post by: Sdwbvf on September 13, 2023, 04:48:35 PM
Proof house isn't the problem per se. New Street has been a platform short for several years. Which does help when you try to shoehorn in extra trains. Running 6 coaches on the shuttles would help with the crowds.
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 04:50:48 PM
If I was either of the owners, I’d be looking for building land. The amount of money that needs spending on Villa Park, the transportation issues and the site limitations - there is certainly a case for a new stadium elsewhere.
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Yep, I've said the same thing lots of times. Everton managed it and they've got the sea on one side!
yep, that's been my thinking as well. Villa Park is great and it would be a massive shame to move but staying there comes with its problems. I'd want something closer to the city centre though, not out of town somewhere.
Is there any point in asking where?
That bit of Digbeth west of Moor Street, south of the HS2 area is almost begging to be demolished and a lovely new 60,000 stadium constructed. Bordesley Street, around there. All of the trendy stuff is south of there, most of the area I've mentioned is delapidated warehouses and the like.
Post by: Ads on September 13, 2023, 05:15:35 PM
We break ground after the Foo Fighters concert, upgrade or not.
I would assume the upgraded transport is a condition of the planning permission, so if firm plans for the station aren't in place, they won't be allowed to do that. They can probably crack on with tarting up the Villa Live or whatever the new version is called, but nothing else.
The restriction on planning requires the submission of a detailed plan in accordance with WSP objectives to reduce dependency on private car travel. There is no condition to build a new Witton Station before or in concert with the New North development associated with the previous planning application. The new submission will have fewer conditions under TCPA as we're doing less with Villa Live.
The plan is indexed to suggested measures and rail is indexed as special long term measure. Approval was granted on that commitment basis.
As soon as Dave Grohl has waved goodbye, work starts.
Post by: DeKuip on September 13, 2023, 05:20:21 PM
If I was either of the owners, I’d be looking for building land. The amount of money that needs spending on Villa Park, the transportation issues and the site limitations - there is certainly a case for a new stadium elsewhere.
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Yep, I've said the same thing lots of times. Everton managed it and they've got the sea on one side!
yep, that's been my thinking as well. Villa Park is great and it would be a massive shame to move but staying there comes with its problems. I'd want something closer to the city centre though, not out of town somewhere.
Is there any point in asking where?
That bit of Digbeth west of Moor Street, south of the HS2 area is almost begging to be demolished and a lovely new 60,000 stadium constructed. Bordesley Street, around there. All of the trendy stuff is south of there, most of the area I've mentioned is delapidated warehouses and the like.
We have a perfectly good enough ground as it is and so long as we keep pricing people of going there the transport problems will eventually ease.
Post by: hipkiss92 on September 13, 2023, 05:22:15 PM
We break ground after the Foo Fighters concert, upgrade or not.
I would assume the upgraded transport is a condition of the planning permission, so if firm plans for the station aren't in place, they won't be allowed to do that. They can probably crack on with tarting up the Villa Live or whatever the new version is called, but nothing else.
There isn't a condition requiring them to do so in the planning permission (not in their control to do so either, so would be a poor planning consultant who signed them up to that), or any commitment for the station upgrade to form part of the transport measures for the re-development, other than a commitment to work with TfWM and others to explore rail improvements.
There are firmer commitments to do other transport related things - bus shuttles to town, closing Witton Road post-match, finding more off-site parking, controlled parking on local roads, park and ride, taxi rank in front of the church - that the club can fund directly.
Post by: Ads on September 13, 2023, 05:24:30 PM
Quote
AVFC will work with WMT and TfWM to further improve the efficiency of rail in the longer term amongst fans, for example by encouraging fans to travel on the quickest train for their journey and by sharing real-time travel information on the clubs channels.
WITTON STATION AND WIDER AREA MASTERPLAN
Witton Station is part of a wider area masterplan which would also include the reopening of the subway beneath the tracks.
AVFC will commit the availability of a team to the masterplan as it develops.
That commitment requires a detailed plan for compliance our end. That's it. Not we will lay track or extend by x inches the platform. Just plan, in detail.
Interestingly there will be more busses, Villa marked busses and a taxi rank.
Post by: eamonn on September 13, 2023, 05:40:15 PM
We break ground after the Foo Fighters concert, upgrade or not.
I would assume the upgraded transport is a condition of the planning permission, so if firm plans for the station aren't in place, they won't be allowed to do that. They can probably crack on with tarting up the Villa Live or whatever the new version is called, but nothing else.
The restriction on planning requires the submission of a detailed plan in accordance with WSP objectives to reduce dependency on private car travel. There is no condition to build a new Witton Station before or in concert with the New North development associated with the previous planning application. The new submission will have fewer conditions under TCPA as we're doing less with Villa Live.
The plan is indexed to suggested measures and rail is indexed as special long term measure. Approval was granted on that commitment basis.
As soon as Dave Grohl has waved goodbye, work starts.
Can't we tell him to fuck off and not bother coming so we can crack-on with this?
Post by: Ads on September 13, 2023, 05:46:42 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 13, 2023, 06:28:40 PM
If I was either of the owners, I’d be looking for building land. The amount of money that needs spending on Villa Park, the transportation issues and the site limitations - there is certainly a case for a new stadium elsewhere.
I’m not quite sure how I feel about that as a fan. But there is a case for it.
Yep, I've said the same thing lots of times. Everton managed it and they've got the sea on one side!
yep, that's been my thinking as well. Villa Park is great and it would be a massive shame to move but staying there comes with its problems. I'd want something closer to the city centre though, not out of town somewhere.
Is there any point in asking where?
That bit of Digbeth west of Moor Street, south of the HS2 area is almost begging to be demolished and a lovely new 60,000 stadium constructed. Bordesley Street, around there. All of the trendy stuff is south of there, most of the area I've mentioned is delapidated warehouses and the like.
Do you mean east of Moor Street? If so it would be a logistical nightmare for traffic and I doubt if anyone is going to sell land so close to HS2.
Post by: Risso on September 13, 2023, 06:46:03 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 13, 2023, 06:55:49 PM
We have a perfectly good enough ground as it is and so long as we keep pricing people of going there the transport problems will eventually ease.
Do we though?
We have a historic (despite being less than 50 years old in its oldest part) ground which can be very atmospheric, but the facilities for fans are abysmal in two of the stands and highly questionable at best in the other two.
We also know that as soon as we've finished the North Stand, we'll still have a further problem in the Witton, which has the worst facilities in the ground and really isn't fit for anything you'd charge people almost 70 quid a pop for.
I just wonder if we reach the point where they think fuck this for a game of soldiers, either let's build anew somewhere else, or we demolish the whole lot currently there and build on the same plot.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 13, 2023, 06:57:09 PM
Do you mean east of Moor Street? If so it would be a logistical nightmare for traffic and I doubt if anyone is going to sell land so close to HS2.
Surely though anywhere so near to the city centre will be difficult for traffic (as the city centre itself already is) but the point would be few people would drive.
I'd never drive if our ground was nearer the centre. I almost always drive now because the public transport is so piss poor.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on September 13, 2023, 07:03:14 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on September 13, 2023, 11:23:20 PM
https://x.com/espnfc/status/1701968020451598647?s=46
Post by: DB on September 14, 2023, 02:07:05 PM
Post by: Risso on September 14, 2023, 02:20:40 PM
Do you mean east of Moor Street? If so it would be a logistical nightmare for traffic and I doubt if anyone is going to sell land so close to HS2.
Surely though anywhere so near to the city centre will be difficult for traffic (as the city centre itself already is) but the point would be few people would drive.
I'd never drive if our ground was nearer the centre. I almost always drive now because the public transport is so piss poor.
Exactly that. Look at Newcastle, very few people drive there I expect, because it's ten minutes walk from the city centre, nobody bothers. Their city centre gets the benefit of 50,000 fans before and after the match every game, I bet that makes a huge difference to the local economy.
Post by: LeeB on September 14, 2023, 02:31:41 PM
Do you mean east of Moor Street? If so it would be a logistical nightmare for traffic and I doubt if anyone is going to sell land so close to HS2.
Surely though anywhere so near to the city centre will be difficult for traffic (as the city centre itself already is) but the point would be few people would drive.
I'd never drive if our ground was nearer the centre. I almost always drive now because the public transport is so piss poor.
Exactly that. Look at Newcastle, very few people drive there I expect, because it's ten minutes walk from the city centre, nobody bothers. Their city centre gets the benefit of 50,000 fans before and after the match every game, I bet that makes a huge difference to the local economy.
With respect to the two residents of Leamington and Leicestershire, getting in and out of Brum on an ordinary weekend is already a massive pain in the arse from the relatively close suburb in which I live, the thought of attempting in with 60,000 others at the same time is not appealing.
The only site I can think of that could give us more space and still fit the remit of being in our own area would be the Alex, and that's useless for trains, so the A34 would turn into a huge car park.
Post by: LeeB on September 14, 2023, 02:34:02 PM
Post by: algy on September 14, 2023, 02:39:32 PM
It begs the question really that rather than the site we currently occupy being the problem, is it more that Brum itself is not equipped to deal with a big fuck off crowd thanks to the poor infrastructure?I think this is it. As has been said before, Villa Park is right next to a massive motorway and 2 separate railway stations. There aren't going to be that many locations with better transport links, and even fewer that are actually obtainable.
Post by: Ads on September 14, 2023, 02:42:56 PM
Post by: London Villan on September 14, 2023, 02:43:02 PM
If you were to pick a location, I think somewhere around Summer Lane/Great Hampton St would be just about acceptable - but it's never going to happen.
The city can cope with thousands of people travelling in each morning on a work day, more than attending any stadium event, but obviously, public transport frequencies would have to adapt to a new stadium.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 14, 2023, 02:48:38 PM
Post by: The Edge on September 14, 2023, 02:52:16 PM
It begs the question really that rather than the site we currently occupy being the problem, is it more that Brum itself is not equipped to deal with a big fuck off crowd thanks to the poor infrastructure?100%. Lack of funding for transport in Britain's second city is totally the problem. Governments of all colours have had a blind spot regarding Birmingham/West Midlands since WW2. London gets everything it needs. Manchester has had vast amounts spent on it's metro as has the North East, Sheffield and Nottingham. Places the world over with similar populations can build huge stadia with brilliant transport links while Birmingham grinds to a halt for a Bruce Springsteen concert. Its a national disgrace but the nation doesn't give a flying fuck. It's only Birmingham. Leeds is another big city that has been continually overlooked by central government.
Post by: London Villan on September 14, 2023, 02:53:46 PM
Smithfield is a no go, already a master plan for the entire plot.
Agreed - more shops and offices.... Not sure it's what the city needs more of.
Post by: The Edge on September 14, 2023, 03:10:36 PM
It would be hilarious if we gazumped the developers and built a huge new stadium right in the heart of the territory where "we're not allowed"Smithfield is a no go, already a master plan for the entire plot.
Agreed - more shops and offices.... Not sure it's what the city needs more of.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on September 14, 2023, 03:17:07 PM
Smithfield is a no go, already a master plan for the entire plot.
Agreed - more shops and offices.... Not sure it's what the city needs more of.
That's insane. It won't be long before shops and offices are things of the past.
Post by: Pat Mustard on September 14, 2023, 03:24:18 PM
As others have said, the lack of investment in public transport in Birmingham is symptomatic of the attitudes of governments of all stripes over the last 50 years that anything outside of London/SE and the North West doesn't exist. There isn't another city in Europe the size of Birmingham without a full city-wide light rail/metro system. The location of Villa Park isn't the problem, the transport infrastructure is. The real piss-boiler is that it wouldn't cost huge amounts to put right - about 1/50th of what was spent on Crossrail would have a massive impact.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 14, 2023, 03:37:43 PM
The location of Villa Park isn't the problem, the transport infrastructure is.
The question becomes which is easiest, fix the transport infrastructure or move the ground (given the accompanying problem of being unable to expand the ground beyond 50k, or to expand the commercial facilities on one side because of the lack of space).
Post by: LeeB on September 14, 2023, 03:48:48 PM
The location of Villa Park isn't the problem, the transport infrastructure is.
The question becomes which is easiest, fix the transport infrastructure or move the ground (given the accompanying problem of being unable to expand the ground beyond 50k, or to expand the commercial facilities on one side because of the lack of space).
But as has been pointed out, moving the ground is still not going to fix the problem.
We'll have a bigger ground yes, but getting to or from it will be a nightmare at any proposed site.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 14, 2023, 04:34:43 PM
Without wishing to repeat Liverpool’s reprehensible behaviour towards local residents, I still think the easiest win is to find a satisfactory rehousing of the people on the Witton Lane side of the ground and either moving or building over the road. That would allow four sides to be redeveloped without affecting any housing.
Post by: Gareth on September 14, 2023, 04:48:12 PM
I know that it’s rumoured that small heath might go there, but the Birmingham Wheels site is absolutely huge. Don’t suppose the transport links are any better. In fact, they’re probably worse.
Without wishing to repeat Liverpool’s reprehensible behaviour towards local residents, I still think the easiest win is to find a satisfactory rehousing of the people on the Witton Lane side of the ground and either moving or building over the road. That would allow four sides to be redeveloped without affecting any housing.
Or some of the land on Aston Hall, they could afford to lose a hundred yards or so of land surely :-)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 14, 2023, 04:51:57 PM
The location of Villa Park isn't the problem, the transport infrastructure is.
The question becomes which is easiest, fix the transport infrastructure or move the ground (given the accompanying problem of being unable to expand the ground beyond 50k, or to expand the commercial facilities on one side because of the lack of space).
But as has been pointed out, moving the ground is still not going to fix the problem.
We'll have a bigger ground yes, but getting to or from it will be a nightmare at any proposed site.
Only if you accept that there is no potential location for the ground which is less of a nightmare to get to, and also if you don't accept that somewhere more central would reduce the numbers trying to get there by car.
I don't see how if Arsenal could manage to find another plot for the Emirates so near to Highbury in somewhere as dense as North London, we couldn't possibly find somewhere in Birmingham.
And I know they didn't necessarily end up with a ground with much better transport connections, or even if that was their major requirement, but they found somewhere to build.
I am not saying we should do the above, btw, but I bet the likes of Chris Heck will have put it on the table as an option
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 14, 2023, 04:52:02 PM
I know that it’s rumoured that small heath might go there, but the Birmingham Wheels site is absolutely huge. Don’t suppose the transport links are any better. In fact, they’re probably worse.
Without wishing to repeat Liverpool’s reprehensible behaviour towards local residents, I still think the easiest win is to find a satisfactory rehousing of the people on the Witton Lane side of the ground and either moving or building over the road. That would allow four sides to be redeveloped without affecting any housing.
Or some of the land on Aston Hall, they could afford to lose a hundred yards or so of land surely :-)
That too. You’d think they’d be up for selling it. We have 571 parks.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 14, 2023, 04:52:18 PM
Post by: LeeB on September 14, 2023, 04:54:27 PM
I know that it’s rumoured that small heath might go there, but the Birmingham Wheels site is absolutely huge. Don’t suppose the transport links are any better. In fact, they’re probably worse.
Without wishing to repeat Liverpool’s reprehensible behaviour towards local residents, I still think the easiest win is to find a satisfactory rehousing of the people on the Witton Lane side of the ground and either moving or building over the road. That would allow four sides to be redeveloped without affecting any housing.
Or some of the land on Aston Hall, they could afford to lose a hundred yards or so of land surely :-)
Nobody has lived on that house for years, may as well knock that down and build it there. Then we can just move in when it's done, won't even need Pickfords.
Tarmac the park for a car park, build a megastore/boxpark/casino on the site of the existing ground, wallop, how about that for increasing commercial income?
Post by: Risso on September 14, 2023, 05:24:38 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 14, 2023, 06:36:34 PM
The transport links for Arsenal are great, probably the easiest London ground to get to/away from. Islington is a really good area to spend time in beforehand as well.
They've also got a massive pre-match area whereas we've got half a dozen indifferent pubs/clubs and Up Town.
Post by: trinityoap on September 14, 2023, 07:33:10 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on September 14, 2023, 07:57:17 PM
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on September 14, 2023, 08:08:12 PM
How about knocking down the ‘One Stop’?Now this i can get on board with.Nearer our starting roots too.
Post by: Duncan Shaw on September 15, 2023, 09:24:24 AM
Same rubbish train line though?How about knocking down the ‘One Stop’?Now this i can get on board with.Nearer our starting roots too.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 15, 2023, 09:49:43 AM
Same rubbish train line though?How about knocking down the ‘One Stop’?Now this i can get on board with.Nearer our starting roots too.
How about just knocking down the One Stop, nothing to do with moving the ground there?
Post by: algy on September 15, 2023, 10:15:27 AM
And you lose easy access to the cross city line at Aston.Same rubbish train line though?How about knocking down the ‘One Stop’?Now this i can get on board with.Nearer our starting roots too.
Personally think you ain't going to solve the transport problems in Birmingham unless you move out of Birmingham, and I don't see that as a viable option.
The one exception might be to move closer to the city centre, but tbh if our maximum capacity is 40k-50k then so be it. Chelsea have managed to consistently qualify for the Champions League with a smaller.ground than ours, I'm not sure we actually *need* a 60k+ capacity stadium (as nice as it'd be to have one)
Post by: eamonn on September 15, 2023, 01:34:27 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 15, 2023, 01:58:13 PM
True re Chelsea but I wonder how much they make per supporter in the ground based on ticket price, food and commercials....a lot more per customer than we do, anyway.
Corporates and ticket price definitely (although to be fair, we're making a good job of trying to catch up on the latter) but their ancillaries might not be so impressive as there's a lot of choice outside.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 15, 2023, 02:47:26 PM
We could double our ancillaries if they could just be bothered to serve us.True re Chelsea but I wonder how much they make per supporter in the ground based on ticket price, food and commercials....a lot more per customer than we do, anyway.
Corporates and ticket price definitely (although to be fair, we're making a good job of trying to catch up on the latter) but their ancillaries might not be so impressive as there's a lot of choice outside.
Post by: The Edge on September 15, 2023, 05:31:23 PM
Great pointWe could double our ancillaries if they could just be bothered to serve us.True re Chelsea but I wonder how much they make per supporter in the ground based on ticket price, food and commercials....a lot more per customer than we do, anyway.
Corporates and ticket price definitely (although to be fair, we're making a good job of trying to catch up on the latter) but their ancillaries might not be so impressive as there's a lot of choice outside.
Post by: Gareth on September 15, 2023, 05:36:14 PM
We could double our ancillaries if they could just be bothered to serve us.True re Chelsea but I wonder how much they make per supporter in the ground based on ticket price, food and commercials....a lot more per customer than we do, anyway.
Corporates and ticket price definitely (although to be fair, we're making a good job of trying to catch up on the latter) but their ancillaries might not be so impressive as there's a lot of choice outside.
Plebs are at the back of the queue…it’s hospitality, hospitality, hospitality….rest of us are completely irrelevant.
If there was any inclination for them to improve it would have been done very very easily
Post by: The Edge on September 15, 2023, 06:23:34 PM
*Courtesy of Stephen Fry and QI.
Post by: Gareth on September 15, 2023, 08:53:44 PM
Interesting fact: The name Plebs comes from a district of ancient Rome called Pleb where all the poor people lived.
*Courtesy of Stephen Fry and QI.
Everydays a school day
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 15, 2023, 08:54:42 PM
Interesting fact: The name Plebs comes from a district of ancient Rome called Pleb where all the poor people lived.
*Courtesy of Stephen Fry and QI.
Everydays a school day
And another - every day’s.
Post by: Border villan on September 15, 2023, 08:57:48 PM
Interesting fact: The name Plebs comes from a district of ancient Rome called Pleb where all the poor people lived.
*Courtesy of Stephen Fry and QI.
Everydays a school day
Unless your school is closed because of RAAC.
Post by: Gareth on September 15, 2023, 08:59:06 PM
Interesting fact: The name Plebs comes from a district of ancient Rome called Pleb where all the poor people lived.
*Courtesy of Stephen Fry and QI.
Everydays a school day
And another - every day’s.
:-) user error!
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 15, 2023, 10:26:02 PM
Interesting fact: The name Plebs comes from a district of ancient Rome called Pleb where all the poor people lived.
*Courtesy of Stephen Fry and QI.
Everydays a school day
And another - every day’s.
:-) user error!
Haha. Sorry, I only posted it because of the gist of your post.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 15, 2023, 11:05:29 PM
It begs the question really that rather than the site we currently occupy being the problem, is it more that Brum itself is not equipped to deal with a big fuck off crowd thanks to the poor infrastructure?
Yep. Tram should've been extended further out but we all know the short sightedness and dithering while other major cities just got on building it. Pretty sure there's yet another issue on Broad street so can't even get to Edgbaston Village from the centre.
If 20 years ago they'd been foresight to extend it down the A34 and towards Star City that would at least give two stops within 10 minutes walking distance of VP. Not perfect but better than bottleneck junction we currently have for the foreseeable.
Will be a major embarrassment if we're overlooked for the Euros bid. I think for that we'd just build the stand and it would be a repeat of commonwealth games, just have endless shuttle buses dotted around Brum and big car parks and get fans in that way given it would be more of an international crowd for that tournament.
Isn't there some tunnel needed to reach the Academy building so I assume that's tied in with the consultation. Interested how long the process took to rebuild Perry Barr station (redevelopment of University station has also overun by a year and still isn't finished).
It's not looking good.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 15, 2023, 11:23:27 PM
The problem with transport to Villa Park goes beyond actual available infrastructure, though. It is also about organisation.
Driving and parking up and getting away from the ground has always been a bit challenging - as you'd expect - but I am pretty sure the traffic situation up Aston Hall Road towards Lichfield Road and ultimately the motorway has been seriously, seriously worse than it was 10 years ago because of disappearing one way systems.
Post by: The Edge on September 16, 2023, 09:18:06 AM
The tram extension for HS2 Curzon St has been built right to the top of Digbeth high street and as such will serve people heading to St Andrews. As far as I know there's no firm plans yet to extend it either down Lichfield Rd or the A34. Great forward planning.It begs the question really that rather than the site we currently occupy being the problem, is it more that Brum itself is not equipped to deal with a big fuck off crowd thanks to the poor infrastructure?
Yep. Tram should've been extended further out but we all know the short sightedness and dithering while other major cities just got on building it. Pretty sure there's yet another issue on Broad street so can't even get to Edgbaston Village from the centre.
If 20 years ago they'd been foresight to extend it down the A34 and towards Star City that would at least give two stops within 10 minutes walking distance of VP. Not perfect but better than bottleneck junction we currently have for the foreseeable.
Will be a major embarrassment if we're overlooked for the Euros bid. I think for that we'd just build the stand and it would be a repeat of commonwealth games, just have endless shuttle buses dotted around Brum and big car parks and get fans in that way given it would be more of an international crowd for that tournament.
Isn't there some tunnel needed to reach the Academy building so I assume that's tied in with the consultation. Interested how long the process took to rebuild Perry Barr station (redevelopment of University station has also overun by a year and still isn't finished).
It's not looking good.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 16, 2023, 09:21:07 AM
Post by: Chap on September 16, 2023, 09:28:00 AM
Post by: Ads on September 16, 2023, 09:31:47 AM
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 16, 2023, 11:33:38 AM
They're never going to build a tram line in an area where the main justification is 25 or so days a year, so extending it up Lichfield Road would have to fight it out as an option with lots of other potential routes
Star City's been open since 2000 though hasn't it? So could've just built it down the A34 with a stop loosely connected to VP and then have terminus up at Star City which is much more active than 25 days a year.
I was in Nottingham yesterday for business and being a transport geek was impressed how far their metro stretches out flicking through the map, up to Bulwell (which has a train station) and also West up to Toton. Shame HS2 is probably going to be scrapped for that part of the world but can't have everything I guess.
Sheffield has its tram going up to Meadowhall and also Hillsborough.
As we've seen taking 6-7 years to just extend tram into the city centre and slightly beyond it just takes too long so moment has passed really to include VP.
Post by: VillaTim on September 16, 2023, 11:38:51 AM
Post by: RamboandBruno on September 16, 2023, 11:52:27 AM
Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Its rammed all the time, surprisingly so.
In terms of the ground, i havent read all of the recent posts on the thread, but understanding what people are saying of the logistical issues with Villa Park, even with with all that and being self aware enough to know my own thoughts on this are built almost totally on sentimentally, it would be a mistake to move from Villa Park. Some aspects of history are worth protecting from progress despite the inconvenience of the transport situation.
Post by: AV82EC on September 16, 2023, 01:04:29 PM
Post by: algy on September 16, 2023, 01:23:22 PM
They must, surely, look at that tram system in Manchester and wonder why the hell the city is so far behind in that regard. The city centre will be a battle, but get past that ....
Not that I think you _ought_ to be reliant on a hypothetical tram network when there's 2 national rail stations, on different lines, within a few minutes walk.
Post by: AV82EC on September 16, 2023, 01:40:20 PM
Network whereas Manchester needs the opposite. Being honest both of them need major splurges on all aspects of it but you have to start somewhere.
Post by: Risso on September 16, 2023, 01:44:29 PM
I think this is it. As has been said before, Villa Park is right next to a massive motorway and 2 separate railway stations. There aren't going to be that many locations with better transport links, and even fewer that are actually obtainable.
I think Birmingham's unique in that it is a British city with a major motorway passing right through the middle of it. The only remotely comparable area I can think of is the bottom bit of the M1 that goes into North London. So yes it's great that the motorway at J6 is very close, but unfortunately it might as well be on the moon if the local roads can't cope with the traffic to get to it, which they very much can't. I'd say 95% of cars head back either under the flyover and towards Lichfield Road, or up Witton Road to Victoria Road, and then onto the Expressway. Most of the local roads intersecting these roads are barely wide enough to cope with cars coming in both directions, so it's usually absolute carnage for a good couple of hours after the game has finished.
Post by: AV82EC on September 16, 2023, 01:48:21 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 16, 2023, 06:00:38 PM
Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Almost everyone who goes to Star City does so by car, which is why it is built where it is.
Post by: dekko on September 17, 2023, 08:03:44 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 17, 2023, 08:11:54 AM
I lived in Greater Manchester for 20’years and the tram system is good. The main drawback though is they converted quite a few of their heavy rail commuter lines to tram and rail coverage isn’t as good as a result. In fact each conurbation has an opposing problem, West Mids needs some money spent on improving its rail infrastructure and a big splurge on a tram
Network whereas Manchester needs the opposite. Being honest both of them need major splurges on all aspects of it but you have to start somewhere.
A cause for optimism I think. Once we get a decent tram network we’ll be cooking as we’ll have both components. I imagine it’s much more difficult to restore heavy rail.
Post by: VillaTim on September 17, 2023, 08:21:58 AM
Reports starting to come out confirming that the Holte Suite is being converted to hospitality.Best kept secret ever ? Saw figures of £70 entry floating about yesterday, obviously unconfirmed at this stage
Post by: Lucky Eddie on September 17, 2023, 09:02:58 AM
Reports starting to come out confirming that the Holte Suite is being converted to hospitality.Best kept secret ever ? Saw figures of £70 entry floating about yesterday, obviously unconfirmed at this stage
Per match or per season?
Post by: The Edge on September 17, 2023, 09:09:37 AM
They're never going to build a tram line in an area where the main justification is 25 or so days a year, so extending it up Lichfield Road would have to fight it out as an option with lots of other potential routesSo what's the justification for extending the HS2 Curzon link right to the top of Digbeth? The A34 passes through heavily urbanised districts which the tram would serve. A branch off from the island towards Villa Park/Witton station would have similar benefits.
Post by: London Villan on September 17, 2023, 09:27:38 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 17, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
They're never going to build a tram line in an area where the main justification is 25 or so days a year, so extending it up Lichfield Road would have to fight it out as an option with lots of other potential routesSo what's the justification for extending the HS2 Curzon link right to the top of Digbeth? The A34 passes through heavily urbanised districts which the tram would serve. A branch off from the island towards Villa Park/Witton station would have similar benefits.
To bring Digbeth properly into the city centre.
Post by: The Edge on September 17, 2023, 09:57:35 AM
Yeah I suppose that's true but my point is the A34 corridor is heavily urban and trams are by definition a mass public transport system so taking it along there and possibly linking it to a new Witton Station wouldn't just be used for 20 odd football matches a year which was the reason for my response to a previous post.They're never going to build a tram line in an area where the main justification is 25 or so days a year, so extending it up Lichfield Road would have to fight it out as an option with lots of other potential routesSo what's the justification for extending the HS2 Curzon link right to the top of Digbeth? The A34 passes through heavily urbanised districts which the tram would serve. A branch off from the island towards Villa Park/Witton station would have similar benefits.
To bring Digbeth properly into the city centre.
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 17, 2023, 09:58:33 AM
The Digbeth branch is the start of the line to the airport (that will never get built in our lifetimes). The residents of Walsall basically scuppered the A34 tram line. They didnt want to be connectec to Brum.
Where did you get that idea from?
Post by: Nev on September 17, 2023, 09:59:07 AM
Post by: The Edge on September 17, 2023, 10:01:06 AM
The A34 itself already connects Walsall to Brum. As do the trains and buses.The Digbeth branch is the start of the line to the airport (that will never get built in our lifetimes). The residents of Walsall basically scuppered the A34 tram line. They didnt want to be connectec to Brum.
Whee did you get that idea from?
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 17, 2023, 10:36:29 AM
The Digbeth branch is the start of the line to the airport (that will never get built in our lifetimes). The residents of Walsall basically scuppered the A34 tram line. They didnt want to be connectec to Brum.
Whee did you get that idea from?
Didn’t the leader and/or the council over there knock it back?
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 17, 2023, 10:43:19 AM
The Digbeth branch is the start of the line to the airport (that will never get built in our lifetimes). The residents of Walsall basically scuppered the A34 tram line. They didnt want to be connectec to Brum.
Whee did you get that idea from?
Didn’t the leader and/or the council over there knock it back?
According to Google and the Express & Star the idea of Walsall to Wolverhampton was knocked back due to lack of demand.
Post by: DB on September 17, 2023, 11:06:01 AM
The Digbeth branch is the start of the line to the airport (that will never get built in our lifetimes). The residents of Walsall basically scuppered the A34 tram line. They didnt want to be connectec to Brum.
Whee did you get that idea from?
Didn’t the leader and/or the council over there knock it back?
According to Google and the Ecpress & Star the idea of Walsall to Wolverhampton was knocked back due to lack of demand.
They are building a new line to connect them again, with 2 new stations Willenhall & Darleston at the mo, so I don’t think a Tram line would be needed too.
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 17, 2023, 11:10:42 AM
Post by: London Villan on September 17, 2023, 11:33:18 AM
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/walsall-road-tram-plan-laid-89785
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 17, 2023, 11:39:45 AM
Sorry for the Birmingham Mail link - but this was the story back in the day... the culmination of years of protest and opposition to the potential Metro line. The locals wanted buses instead.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/walsall-road-tram-plan-laid-89785
That's Walsall Road, Perry Barr.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 17, 2023, 12:02:07 PM
Sorry for the Birmingham Mail link - but this was the story back in the day... the culmination of years of protest and opposition to the potential Metro line. The locals wanted buses instead.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/walsall-road-tram-plan-laid-89785
That's Walsall Road, Perry Barr.
Jesus, how bad is that website?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 17, 2023, 12:09:01 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on September 17, 2023, 01:37:16 PM
Sorry for the Birmingham Mail link - but this was the story back in the day... the culmination of years of protest and opposition to the potential Metro line. The locals wanted buses instead.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/walsall-road-tram-plan-laid-89785
That's Walsall Road, Perry Barr.
Jesus, how bad is that website?
It’s impossible to read without getting an instant migraine.
Post by: Chap on September 17, 2023, 07:47:28 PM
The last plan was for Sprint buses up Walsall Road - like trams, they have a dedicated lane but run on wheels rather than tram lines. Much quicker to get going.Except they haven’t. No Sprint buses are running up the A34. Supposedly 2024 but I won’t hold my breath!.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 17, 2023, 07:51:51 PM
The last plan was for Sprint buses up Walsall Road - like trams, they have a dedicated lane but run on wheels rather than tram lines. Much quicker to get going.Except they haven’t. No Sprint buses are running up the A34. Supposedly 2024 but I won’t hold my breath!.
Yeah that's why i said 'plan' ;)
Post by: Lastfootstamper on September 17, 2023, 07:57:42 PM
https://www.birminghambeheard.org.uk/economy/sprint_phase2/
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 18, 2023, 12:23:15 AM
Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Watching a film there is far cheaper than going to the ones on Broad Street, 6 quid last time I went and that was peak time. Casino, Goals on the roof and Bowling alley is usually pretty busy during the day so plenty still there even if the restaurants are hit and miss as to which stay open.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 18, 2023, 11:09:14 AM
I was in Digbeth yesterday, it's still chaotic down there, the businesses have had to be very patient.
What year does the BBC move down to Digbeth? That's why the tramline is getting built down there.
Post by: Exeter 77 on September 18, 2023, 11:12:30 AM
2026I was in Digbeth yesterday, it's still chaotic down there, the businesses have had to be very patient.
What year does the BBC move down to Digbeth? That's why the tramline is getting built down there.
Post by: Drummond on September 18, 2023, 11:23:41 AM
Sorry for the Birmingham Mail link - but this was the story back in the day... the culmination of years of protest and opposition to the potential Metro line. The locals wanted buses instead.
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/walsall-road-tram-plan-laid-89785
That's Walsall Road, Perry Barr.
Jesus, how bad is that website?
I don't think he posts on here anymore mate.
Post by: LeeB on September 18, 2023, 11:27:39 AM
Post by: astonvilla82 on September 18, 2023, 12:17:17 PM
Post by: The Edge on September 18, 2023, 01:03:07 PM
I live a stones throw away from Star City and can confirm its very busy all year round. A tram link would be perfect which could also serve the Fort shopping centre and could double up as a vital link for Villa Park. It's an obvious move. It's been done in Manchester (of course) and it serves Salford Quays which takes in Old Trafford on route.Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Watching a film there is far cheaper than going to the ones on Broad Street, 6 quid last time I went and that was peak time. Casino, Goals on the roof and Bowling alley is usually pretty busy during the day so plenty still there even if the restaurants are hit and miss as to which stay open.
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2023, 01:38:49 PM
I live a stones throw away from Star City and can confirm its very busy all year round. A tram link would be perfect which could also serve the Fort shopping centre and could double up as a vital link for Villa Park. It's an obvious move. It's been done in Manchester (of course) and it serves Salford Quays which takes in Old Trafford on route.Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Watching a film there is far cheaper than going to the ones on Broad Street, 6 quid last time I went and that was peak time. Casino, Goals on the roof and Bowling alley is usually pretty busy during the day so plenty still there even if the restaurants are hit and miss as to which stay open.
I agree, a tram that served the whole corridor (and included, Witton/Aston, Erdington and Castle Vale) would be great and could take a lot of traffic off the expressway and surrounding roads. Ideally a service that branched off to cover perry common, kingstanding, etc would be a good idea as well. Link it up with a few train stations and you'd be getting towards a combined travel plan that would make the east/north-east of the city far more connected and could go a long way to tackling the deprivation that the whole area has suffered with for many years.
Post by: PeterWithe on September 18, 2023, 01:45:57 PM
I live a stones throw away from Star City and can confirm its very busy all year round. A tram link would be perfect which could also serve the Fort shopping centre and could double up as a vital link for Villa Park. It's an obvious move. It's been done in Manchester (of course) and it serves Salford Quays which takes in Old Trafford on route.Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Watching a film there is far cheaper than going to the ones on Broad Street, 6 quid last time I went and that was peak time. Casino, Goals on the roof and Bowling alley is usually pretty busy during the day so plenty still there even if the restaurants are hit and miss as to which stay open.
There is already a train line there, the one that goes from BNS to Water Orton, Coleshill then Tamworth (?). Just needs a station or two.
Post by: LeeB on September 18, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
I live a stones throw away from Star City and can confirm its very busy all year round. A tram link would be perfect which could also serve the Fort shopping centre and could double up as a vital link for Villa Park. It's an obvious move. It's been done in Manchester (of course) and it serves Salford Quays which takes in Old Trafford on route.Does anyone still go to Star City ? Genuine question is there anything still there worth going to that isn't in town ?
Watching a film there is far cheaper than going to the ones on Broad Street, 6 quid last time I went and that was peak time. Casino, Goals on the roof and Bowling alley is usually pretty busy during the day so plenty still there even if the restaurants are hit and miss as to which stay open.
There is already a train line there, the one that goes from BNS to Water Orton, Coleshill then Tamworth (?). Just needs a station or two.
The Birmingham to Derby line, Street was on about possibly reopening Castle Bromwich on that line but I've not seen anything since.
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2023, 02:33:30 PM
Post by: AV82EC on September 18, 2023, 02:37:35 PM
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2023, 02:46:25 PM
To be fair to Street he’s recognised the need for a comprehensive light rail/metro system, it’s in his 2040 vision plan but the issue as ever is getting anyone in Westminster/Treasury/DoT to pay any attention to him and cough up some money to pay for it.
Indeed, it's about the only positive thing he's done and it's a bit odd that he's being undermined over it to the extent he is.
Post by: astonvilla82 on September 18, 2023, 03:29:51 PM
Because it's all London London London, the rest of the country and go and swing, same as the sunsidied travel in London cost millions but they don't give a F because the rest of the country helping to pay for it,To be fair to Street he’s recognised the need for a comprehensive light rail/metro system, it’s in his 2040 vision plan but the issue as ever is getting anyone in Westminster/Treasury/DoT to pay any attention to him and cough up some money to pay for it.
Indeed, it's about the only positive thing he's done and it's a bit odd that he's being undermined over it to the extent he is.
Post by: algy on September 18, 2023, 04:07:16 PM
That's it. They do a cost-benefit analysis and cos 35million people potentially benefit from anything in the SE, you compare that with building something in the Midlands, say, or even worse in Wales and the "obvious" choice is to do spend that money in London.Because it's all London London London, the rest of the country and go and swing, same as the sunsidied travel in London cost millions but they don't give a F because the rest of the country helping to pay for it,To be fair to Street he’s recognised the need for a comprehensive light rail/metro system, it’s in his 2040 vision plan but the issue as ever is getting anyone in Westminster/Treasury/DoT to pay any attention to him and cough up some money to pay for it.
Indeed, it's about the only positive thing he's done and it's a bit odd that he's being undermined over it to the extent he is.
It needs a major rethink about how regions are funded.
Post by: AV82EC on September 18, 2023, 04:22:37 PM
That's it. They do a cost-benefit analysis and cos 35million people potentially benefit from anything in the SE, you compare that with building something in the Midlands, say, or even worse in Wales and the "obvious" choice is to do spend that money in London.Because it's all London London London, the rest of the country and go and swing, same as the sunsidied travel in London cost millions but they don't give a F because the rest of the country helping to pay for it,To be fair to Street he’s recognised the need for a comprehensive light rail/metro system, it’s in his 2040 vision plan but the issue as ever is getting anyone in Westminster/Treasury/DoT to pay any attention to him and cough up some money to pay for it.
Indeed, it's about the only positive thing he's done and it's a bit odd that he's being undermined over it to the extent he is.
It needs a major rethink about how regions are funded.
Ah the old Treasury Green Book probably one of the two biggest anti growth reasons this country does absolutely nothing on investment. The other of course being the Town and Country Planning Act.
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2023, 04:28:18 PM
That's it. They do a cost-benefit analysis and cos 35million people potentially benefit from anything in the SE, you compare that with building something in the Midlands, say, or even worse in Wales and the "obvious" choice is to do spend that money in London.Because it's all London London London, the rest of the country and go and swing, same as the sunsidied travel in London cost millions but they don't give a F because the rest of the country helping to pay for it,To be fair to Street he’s recognised the need for a comprehensive light rail/metro system, it’s in his 2040 vision plan but the issue as ever is getting anyone in Westminster/Treasury/DoT to pay any attention to him and cough up some money to pay for it.
Indeed, it's about the only positive thing he's done and it's a bit odd that he's being undermined over it to the extent he is.
It needs a major rethink about how regions are funded.
This is exactly why I'd love to see lords reformed into a house that represents the regions and can push for proper funding outside the South-East, something that takes the focus away from London is desperately needed.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 18, 2023, 11:03:26 PM
Because it's all London London London, the rest of the country and go and swing, same as the sunsidied travel in London cost millions but they don't give a F because the rest of the country helping to pay for it,To be fair to Street he’s recognised the need for a comprehensive light rail/metro system, it’s in his 2040 vision plan but the issue as ever is getting anyone in Westminster/Treasury/DoT to pay any attention to him and cough up some money to pay for it.
Indeed, it's about the only positive thing he's done and it's a bit odd that he's being undermined over it to the extent he is.
Did Nottingham and Sheffield just quickly go to London and nab some funds while Brum was messing around with fantasy bids for the Olympics?
Said a few days ago Nottingham has quickly built up a very extensive tram network and Sheffield aswell goes out to diverse attractions such as Hillsborough, Meadowhall (which already has a train station right next to it) and a more basic shopping centre called Crystal Peaks.
Was coming back on the train today from the depths of Wolverhampton and noticed they're doing work on extension to Merry Hill but don't think that's opening for another few years.
Post by: AV82EC on September 19, 2023, 09:01:36 AM
Post by: Simon Page on September 19, 2023, 11:06:18 AM
I remember the rows about the workplace parking levy. War on motorists, would destroy the economy, business would leave...
Post by: Bad English on September 19, 2023, 12:06:52 PM
Crystal Peaks shopping centre sounds sinister. I've got the muzak from Dawn of the Dead as my earworm now.I've got:
Post by: Drummond on September 19, 2023, 03:12:49 PM
Crystal Peaks shopping centre sounds sinister. I've got the muzak from Dawn of the Dead as my earworm now.
I remember the rows about the workplace parking levy. War on motorists, would destroy the economy, business would leave...
It's not great.
Post by: Drummond on September 19, 2023, 03:17:31 PM
Nottingham has paid for its tram network partly or mostly through a workplace parking levy and some central govt funding. Unsure on Sheffield.
Sheffield cost a lot of money, and is owned by the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive. Operations were sold to Stagecoach for not much money at all and they've done a reasonable job. The South Yorks Mayor has decided not to renew the contract next year and bring it back under public control. Which will probably see it fail and be sold off for peanuts again.
Extensions have been mooted before, and there are a few that would make sense. An interesting recent development was the introduction of a tram-train service to Rotherham...the vehicles can adapt to both tram and train lines, and it runs to Rotherham Station from the tramstops in Sheffield, which is really convenient for those making the journey.
Perhaps that could work in Birmingham on the rail lines discussed already?
Post by: AV82EC on September 19, 2023, 03:41:38 PM
Nottingham has paid for its tram network partly or mostly through a workplace parking levy and some central govt funding. Unsure on Sheffield.
Sheffield cost a lot of money, and is owned by the South Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive. Operations were sold to Stagecoach for not much money at all and they've done a reasonable job. The South Yorks Mayor has decided not to renew the contract next year and bring it back under public control. Which will probably see it fail and be sold off for peanuts again.
Extensions have been mooted before, and there are a few that would make sense. An interesting recent development was the introduction of a tram-train service to Rotherham...the vehicles can adapt to both tram and train lines, and it runs to Rotherham Station from the tramstops in Sheffield, which is really convenient for those making the journey.
Perhaps that could work in Birmingham on the rail lines discussed already?
I think a few of the lines Street has mentioned would be the tram/train hybrid that Sheffield has. I think Gtr Mcr is considering something similar for other Metro expansions.
Post by: Drummond on September 19, 2023, 04:08:47 PM
Post by: rob_bridge on September 19, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
The first Nottingham tram lines opened 20 years ago with 2 large Park and Rides associated running North out of the city. More followed in the last decade. Very impressive. Also 2 bus companies - one Council 'owned' and one private which tends to focus on the commuter towns/outer suburbs.
Sheffield's original ones predate them by a number of years but I do recall getting to Hillsbrough on one.
Post by: Drummond on September 19, 2023, 04:11:36 PM
Post by: London Villan on September 19, 2023, 04:26:25 PM
Brum to M5/Halesowen
Brum to M6/Kingstanding
Brum to M42-M40/Druids Heath
All with big car parks and express trams to the city centre.
Post by: aev on September 19, 2023, 04:34:37 PM
Post by: Simon Page on September 19, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Post by: London Villan on September 19, 2023, 04:55:14 PM
Post by: luke95 on September 19, 2023, 05:04:56 PM
With the council going into special measures what is the possibility of them flogging off some land to build a new stadium - I know for many this would be sacrilege to move from Villa Park but maybe this is something they maybe thinking of?Alexander stadium ?
Post by: chrisw1 on September 19, 2023, 05:46:08 PM
I'm not sure we want a running track stadium. I'm not sure it would solve transport issues either, they had to ship coaches in from all round the country for the commonwealth games.With the council going into special measures what is the possibility of them flogging off some land to build a new stadium - I know for many this would be sacrilege to move from Villa Park but maybe this is something they maybe thinking of?Alexander stadium ?
Either way, I don't think we're even contemplating moving at the moment.
Post by: Smirker on September 19, 2023, 06:18:37 PM
Post by: luke95 on September 19, 2023, 06:25:37 PM
Just giving it as an example of land possible up for sale .I'm not sure we want a running track stadium. I'm not sure it would solve transport issues either, they had to ship coaches in from all round the country for the commonwealth games.With the council going into special measures what is the possibility of them flogging off some land to build a new stadium - I know for many this would be sacrilege to move from Villa Park but maybe this is something they maybe thinking of?Alexander stadium ?
Either way, I don't think we're even contemplating moving at the moment.
Would our owners fund a new stadium , would imagine it would cost the best part of £1b... Purchase the land + build .
Post by: ChicagoLion on September 19, 2023, 08:11:16 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 19, 2023, 08:23:59 PM
£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
Post by: luke95 on September 19, 2023, 08:29:22 PM
£1billion?Spurs ground cost an estimated £1b & that was without having to buy a new site to build it on.
Everton ground build cost alone is estimated £500-600m.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 19, 2023, 11:04:11 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on September 20, 2023, 08:16:46 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on September 20, 2023, 09:02:22 AM
So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
Post by: chrisw1 on September 20, 2023, 09:05:20 AM
You're being obtuse. You don't build a modern stadium & associated infrastructure for £400m in this day and age.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
Post by: The Edge on September 20, 2023, 09:09:50 AM
Do the council own the small park behind the WL stand? I’d guess so.Yes they do and the club paid to have it landscaped when the house were knocked down to extend the Witton Lane. We can't build on it unless the club can purchase the houses behind it and repeat the process.
Post by: Dave P on September 20, 2023, 09:11:34 AM
So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
You need at least 2 stands bigger than one behind the goal and a good plot of land around it. Plus a bit of grass in the middle to play on!
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 20, 2023, 09:13:45 AM
Post by: Ads on September 20, 2023, 09:13:50 AM
You're being obtuse. You don't build a modern stadium & associated infrastructure for £400m in this day and age.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
If you're just counting bricks, steel and plots of land, you're missing out the opportunity for bureaucratic insanity to double your build time and triple your costs.
Sizewell C had a 44,000 page report on environmental impact for absolutely critical infrastructure. Off to Judicial Rview it goes because yay for NIMBYs, so says the CoA. The biggest construction project in the city outside of HS2, a billion? Sounds about right.
Post by: Dick Edwards on September 20, 2023, 09:14:23 AM
We can now look more hopefully at my idea to buy Aston Hall and Park, and everything behind the Witton Lane Stand. That’s the kind of footprint we need.
Given Birmingham City Council's financial problems, this could be a valid option.
Post by: Ads on September 20, 2023, 09:15:31 AM
Post by: algy on September 20, 2023, 09:19:03 AM
Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 20, 2023, 09:23:20 AM
Andy Street was interviewed yesterday and stated they would not be selling off crown jewel assets - he specifically referenced Aston Hall among others. I guess there may be a chance to get a small slice of the lower park area, but the Trinity side is the last part of the stadium that we'll be updating.We can now look more hopefully at my idea to buy Aston Hall and Park, and everything behind the Witton Lane Stand. That’s the kind of footprint we need.
Given Birmingham City Council's financial problems, this could be a valid option.
The small park area by Witton Lane will be more about resident issues than the council getting a nominal amount for the plot.
Post by: Drummond on September 20, 2023, 10:23:48 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on September 20, 2023, 10:28:37 AM
Taking some of the park on the Trinity Road side would offer us nothing unless we went for a full rebuild.It may allow us to do something with the Holte / Trinity corner, but that would be a very long term thing and the cost of moving the road would probably be prohibitive. But if we can increase our plot size at a relatively modest discounted price, then it would seem sensible to do so.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 20, 2023, 10:36:18 AM
Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
This is it, the infrastructure is a huge project and "unseen".
One of the reasons the tram extension across the city centre is taking so long - probably the biggest one - is because they have several centuries worth of infrastructure to navigate through, whilst doing so in a way that doesn't shut the city centre down.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 20, 2023, 10:38:43 AM
That basically means though we go through the endless issues of West Ham, moving miles away from our heritage and home and it being a soulless venue if we're not having a good season.
As good transport links as you could ever ask for though....
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 20, 2023, 10:47:08 AM
The transport links aren't really any better tbh, One trainline and a motorway nearby? I'd say if anything they're worse, as there's no walk from the city centre option, and fewer local buses.
We'd also be perfectly recreating the frustration of sitting in your car, not moving, for fucking ages whilst literally being able to see the motorway, except in one of the most soulless parts of the west midlands.
No ta.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 20, 2023, 10:49:38 AM
Andy Street was interviewed yesterday and stated they would not be selling off crown jewel assets - he specifically referenced Aston Hall among others. I guess there may be a chance to get a small slice of the lower park area, but the Trinity side is the last part of the stadium that we'll be updating.We can now look more hopefully at my idea to buy Aston Hall and Park, and everything behind the Witton Lane Stand. That’s the kind of footprint we need.
Given Birmingham City Council's financial problems, this could be a valid option.
Although it's not up to Andy Street. He said he'd be dead set against it, though, but he can't stop it.
Although tbh if we ever really thought it was an idea to rebuild the ground where it is, this might be a chance in a lifetime to do it, if we bought up part of the park land.
Post by: Nev on September 20, 2023, 10:49:40 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on September 20, 2023, 10:51:45 AM
Anyway, the club isn't moving however many options we come up with.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 20, 2023, 10:56:01 AM
I think it's been said before that there's no space at the NEC.
Anyway, the club isn't moving however many options we come up with.
Aren't they building a new village where the Birmingham interchange station is going to be? (Although they probably aren't factoring in a 60k ground being dumped in the vicinity!)
Probably over time they'll be new businesses springing up that side of the M42 as HS2 *should* be completed that stretch of the country eventually so will only be half an hour or so from Old Oak Common and all the delights there.
Post by: Axl Rose on September 20, 2023, 11:03:49 AM
I won't even go to gigs at the NEC.
It's shit isn't it. I saw Motley Crue there in 2005 and it was a dreary as fuck venue.
Compare that to the Academy (don't know if it's still around or still called the Academy) which was always brilliant.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 20, 2023, 11:04:06 AM
Moving to the NEC would be the death of the club.
The transport links aren't really any better tbh, One trainline and a motorway nearby? I'd say if anything they're worse, as there's no walk from the city centre option, and fewer local buses.
We'd also be perfectly recreating the frustration of sitting in your car, not moving, for fucking ages whilst literally being able to see the motorway, except in one of the most soulless parts of the west midlands.
No ta.
The trainline would be picking up endless fans from Warwickshire/Oxfordshire and beyond that we always say we should do more to attract fans from those parts.
In the past when I've gone down to watch us in London it's always interesting to see the amount of people with Villa shirts that get on at Banbury, Oxford and Milton Keynes so they'd actually have a very easy journey in with a hypothetical move to NEC.
I assume there will be a rapid transit connecting to airport where Birmingham Interchange will be built aswell.
When you have a stadium situated with national train network nearby that will obvious reduce the car dependency on going to the match very quickly given hardly anyone goes to an Arsenal, Spurs or West Ham game by car unless you park miles away.
I don't want to move to NEC either but there's more logic there than a few saying after Commonwealth games that we should purchase the Alex and turn that into 60k ground. Now that is a ground which is rammed in and with even more limited transport options than VP.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 20, 2023, 11:09:55 AM
Most fans from Oxfordshire or Warwickshire (inc me) coming in by train would do so via the Chiltern Line, not the WCML, and I'm not sure that making it easy for those fans whilst making it harder for the majority would be much of a winner in any case.
Arsenal and Spurs are entirely different - they are in extremely built up areas of a large city, car is just not an option for anything (or needed, even though Spurs isn't the greatest location for public transport).
Post by: Nev on September 20, 2023, 11:30:25 AM
I won't even go to gigs at the NEC.
It's shit isn't it. I saw Motley Crue there in 2005 and it was a dreary as fuck venue.
Compare that to the Academy (don't know if it's still around or still called the Academy) which was always brilliant.
It's the transport that puts me off. If you're on the train you invariably have to leg it before the end to get the last train, parking is appalling and staying in a hotel is too expensive. I prefer gigs at the old NIA where a taxi home is cheaper for me living on the west side of town.
I grew up right by the NEC and used to get the 900 bus to gigs.
Post by: algy on September 20, 2023, 12:03:53 PM
I'd think it's a once-in-a-blue-moon chance, and we should probably buy up any parkland that we can - or indeed any land in B6 generally - that's being sold off. Even if we have no intention of using it now, it'll give us options in 30-40 years time which currently aren't there.Andy Street was interviewed yesterday and stated they would not be selling off crown jewel assets - he specifically referenced Aston Hall among others. I guess there may be a chance to get a small slice of the lower park area, but the Trinity side is the last part of the stadium that we'll be updating.We can now look more hopefully at my idea to buy Aston Hall and Park, and everything behind the Witton Lane Stand. That’s the kind of footprint we need.
Given Birmingham City Council's financial problems, this could be a valid option.
Although it's not up to Andy Street. He said he'd be dead set against it, though, but he can't stop it.
Although tbh if we ever really thought it was an idea to rebuild the ground where it is, this might be a chance in a lifetime to do it, if we bought up part of the park land.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 20, 2023, 12:46:38 PM
The ground would move yards from the current location.
Post by: paul_e on September 20, 2023, 12:52:23 PM
What if we were to buy up park land from the council behind the Trinity Road stand and rebuild the whole stadium, using the larger plot?
The ground would move yards from the current location.
I'd guess that would mean playing somewhere else during the work though.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 20, 2023, 12:54:05 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 20, 2023, 07:33:21 PM
Is there no decent plot of land available around the Jewellery Quarter or has it all been snapped up for accommodation and commercial outlets? There's one going up right by the station currently.
That location would be acceptable as just about in the vicinity of where we've resided for over a hundred years and yes a tram line and mainland station all connected pretty nicely. And within 10-15 minutes walk of city centre.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 20, 2023, 11:08:31 PM
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on September 21, 2023, 12:52:56 AM
I won't even go to gigs at the NEC.
It's shit isn't it. I saw Motley Crue there in 2005 and it was a dreary as fuck venue.
Compare that to the Academy (don't know if it's still around or still called the Academy) which was always brilliant.
It's the transport that puts me off. If you're on the train you invariably have to leg it before the end to get the last train, parking is appalling and staying in a hotel is too expensive. I prefer gigs at the old NIA where a taxi home is cheaper for me living on the west side of town.
I grew up right by the NEC and used to get the 900 bus to gigs.
I've been to a lot of gigs and I don't know why it is but it consistently produces the worst sound of almost any place I've been to that holds a few thousand. Then you add in the hour you're waiting in the car to get out and it becomes seriously unattractive. I'm always pissed off when someone I want to see gigs there.
Post by: The Edge on September 21, 2023, 10:29:00 AM
The only faintly feasible location near town would be somewhere in the Gun Quarter. It’s pretty desolate and sparsely populated by industry. The Birmingham Wheels site is huge but the transport is shit and it’s quite a walk from town.And within gobbing distance from The Sty. It's a no from me.
Post by: Bad English on September 21, 2023, 10:54:35 AM
Given the way BCC treat their social housing tenants, I'd be all behind sharking the motherless fucks for cheap real estate.Just out of interest, when did 'real estate' start replacing 'land and 'property' in British Engerlish?
We didn't have this sort of thing back in the day.
Post by: Nev on September 21, 2023, 11:07:22 AM
Given the way BCC treat their social housing tenants, I'd be all behind sharking the motherless fucks for cheap real estate.Just out of interest, when did 'real estate' start replacing 'land and 'property' in British Engerlish?
We didn't have this sort of thing back in the day.
Almost from the get go.
Post by: Risso on September 21, 2023, 11:22:51 AM
Given the way BCC treat their social housing tenants, I'd be all behind sharking the motherless fucks for cheap real estate.Just out of interest, when did 'real estate' start replacing 'land and 'property' in British Engerlish?
We didn't have this sort of thing back in the day.
London in the 17th century, according to this article!
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/where-did-term-real-estate-103000184.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJ4A2DsEptUuKQEgiMJyQcBFavkziUSBn91MV6G5YAQp1jGIKNfOT901KVSCgpo40qFVgCQEUeuUCFa9v0xBesl8YJFGclXtRIbAgcqwgsYwDo7DzNvzUbPcFrC9dgNArQuBncDDsqYT1LaBDaWIPiqG4Ydh8xRVh3jYHW0QUlmh
Post by: astonvilla82 on September 21, 2023, 11:25:21 AM
Given the way BCC treat their social housing tenants, I'd be all behind sharking the motherless fucks for cheap real estate.The same social housing tenants welcomed contractors to operate the housing maintenance department with open arms who then and laid down the law on what they were entitled too under council policy and then didn't like it , worked out well that did
Post by: Simon Page on September 21, 2023, 11:27:49 AM
The most irritating thing about Americanisms is how many of them are proper English.
Post by: stevo_st on September 21, 2023, 01:18:09 PM
Aston Villa delays events space plan to accelerate start on £100m stadium expansion
Villa Live scheme next to ground mothballed under plan to quicken up North Stand work
Aston Villa has mothballed plans for an events venue next to its home ground so the £100m expansion of the stadium’s North Stand can start sooner.
The Villa Live scheme, a standalone building intended as a multi-purpose entertainment, community and retail space, will now be built inside a refurbished warehouse near the Villa Park ground and will be renamed “The Warehouse”.
Meanwhile, the Grimshaw-designed North Stand redevelopment has been redesigned to include a new internal mezzanine level containing a shop, ticket office, a ‘heritage experience’ and enhanced food and beverage offer.
Two separate applications for the changes are due to be given the OK by Birmingham council next week, having secured a recommendation for approval by the council’s planning officers.
The club’s redevelopment of its North Stand was approved in December last year and aims to increase capacity at Villa Park by 7,300 seats to bring capacity up to 50,000.
However, a planning statement by WSP said the Villans had reconsidered the phasing of the scheme and had decided to focus on building the North Stand and would complete the original plan for Villa Live at a later date.
WSP said the club had concluded that the most viable interim solution would be to repurpose the Stumps Academy building, a large warehouse block next to the stadium, to provide “key aspects” of the Villa Live concept including a fan zone, food and drink space and events space.
“In short, the planning strategy has been reworked to ensure that the North Stand can come forward for development immediately, and that the refurbishment of the Stumps Academy building, and car park would be a ‘meanwhile use’,” WSP said.
“This scenario will allow the future delivery of Villa Live and the completion of the original consented scheme in the future.”
Aston Villa said the new proposals will ensure “all the benefits” of the original plan for Villa Live are “retained and provided from the outset”.
The Stumps Academy building will contain a flexible event floor, food and drink courtyard and a micro-brewery, connected to a “multi-use games area” and office space for club staff.
The building will have space for around 2,500 fans and will be open seven days a week, as opposed to just on match days.
The wider project team for the Villa Park expansion includes architect Grimshaw, interior designer F3 Architects, cost consultant Core Five, town planning and transport consultant WSP, structural engineer David Smith Associates and MEP engineer ME Engineers.
Changes to the North Stand expansion include a new sports bar entrance, changes to the facade on the corners of the buildings to include a new club shop and the retention plant building which had been set for demolition under the previous plans.
Post by: Drummond on September 21, 2023, 01:22:58 PM
£12 a pint instead of £6.
Post by: London Villan on September 21, 2023, 01:57:55 PM
"However, a planning statement by WSP said the Villans had reconsidered the phasing of the scheme and had decided to focus on building the North Stand and would complete the original plan for Villa Live at a later date."
Does this mean the original new building is still on the cards further down the line and the "Warehouse" is the interim solution.
Post by: stevo_st on September 21, 2023, 02:00:26 PM
Post by: paul_e on September 21, 2023, 02:02:08 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 21, 2023, 02:02:37 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on September 21, 2023, 02:05:26 PM
Risso, keeping it real(tor).
The most irritating thing about Americanisms is how many of them are proper English.
I've noticed that some British Estate Agents now have their photo on the boards outside houses.
I only ever used to see that in the North American Colonies
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 21, 2023, 02:07:58 PM
Risso, keeping it real(tor).
The most irritating thing about Americanisms is how many of them are proper English.
I've noticed that more and more British Estate Agents have their photo on the boards outside houses.
I only ever used to see that in the North American Colonies
We (me and the Mrs) were discussing that the other day.
Who gives a shit what they look like?
It’s like on LinkedIn when people post utter pointless rubbish as an excuse to post a selfie. Almost always attractive female recruiters, I note.
Post by: stevo_st on September 21, 2023, 02:49:52 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/T4NHyb7/Screenshot-2023-09-21-144904.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T4NHyb7)
Post by: Dave P on September 21, 2023, 03:07:32 PM
"enhanced food and beverage offer."
£12 a pint instead of £6.
£80 to enter instead of free.
Post by: eamonn on September 21, 2023, 03:07:50 PM
Post by: The Edge on September 21, 2023, 03:26:16 PM
There's a massive billboard on the junction of Victoria Rd and Trinity Rd with a picture of the father and son (I forget the name) but it's called something & son Realty. Just what is this obsession with Americanisms in our society?Risso, keeping it real(tor).
The most irritating thing about Americanisms is how many of them are proper English.
I've noticed that some British Estate Agents now have their photo on the boards outside houses.
I only ever used to see that in the North American Colonies
Post by: Rory on September 21, 2023, 03:47:37 PM
There's a massive billboard on the junction of Victoria Rd and Trinity Rd with a picture of the father and son (I forget the name) but it's called something & son Realty. Just what is this obsession with Americanisms in our society?Risso, keeping it real(tor).
The most irritating thing about Americanisms is how many of them are proper English.
I've noticed that some British Estate Agents now have their photo on the boards outside houses.
I only ever used to see that in the North American Colonies
I could care less.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 21, 2023, 07:38:16 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 21, 2023, 09:16:44 PM
The only faintly feasible location near town would be somewhere in the Gun Quarter. It’s pretty desolate and sparsely populated by industry. The Birmingham Wheels site is huge but the transport is shit and it’s quite a walk from town.
SHA actually tried to move to the Wheels site 20 years ago but can't remember why their application was turned down. Think the go karting circuit been sold now.
Really don't want to be moving there although we'd all finally be drinking in town I guess....
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 21, 2023, 11:25:53 PM
The only faintly feasible location near town would be somewhere in the Gun Quarter. It’s pretty desolate and sparsely populated by industry. The Birmingham Wheels site is huge but the transport is shit and it’s quite a walk from town.
SHA actually tried to move to the Wheels site 20 years ago but can't remember why their application was turned down. Think the go karting circuit been sold now.
Really don't want to be moving there although we'd all finally be drinking in town I guess....
It was tied in with the casino which went to the NEC instead.
Post by: ChicagoLion on September 22, 2023, 08:08:10 AM
I would love the project if they were prepared to pay £1billion for it.Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
Everton is costing £500 million and it’s next to water.
Of course if you get HS2 in, it would cost 10 billion.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 22, 2023, 09:11:34 AM
The Everton owner said total costs would be closer to £760m - for a 53k seater.I would love the project if they were prepared to pay £1billion for it.Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
Everton is costing £500 million and it’s next to water.
Of course if you get HS2 in, it would cost 10 billion.
Spurs stadium cost £1b for 63k. Construction started in 2015 and building costs are significantly higher, so to replicate that build would be far more now.
I'd imagine if we were building a new stadium (we're not) we'd want it to be 60k. I'm not sure why you think with additional site assembly costs that Spurs did not have and massively inflated construction fees you think it's so ridiculous that a new stadium would be in the region of £1b.
Post by: Ads on September 22, 2023, 10:53:21 AM
Given the way BCC treat their social housing tenants, I'd be all behind sharking the motherless fucks for cheap real estate.Just out of interest, when did 'real estate' start replacing 'land and 'property' in British Engerlish?
We didn't have this sort of thing back in the day.
If the phrase exists before the country, its not a said country-ism.
Post by: Duncan Shaw on September 22, 2023, 11:41:28 AM
What gives me comfort is we wouldn't be going to this expense with the North stand if a move was on the agenda.
Post by: Bad English on September 22, 2023, 01:41:19 PM
FFS! If the phrase is marked 'mainly North American English', and variants thereof, by lexicographers and in dictionaries, is used mainly by our simple cousins elsewhere, is one that was not used by speakers of proper English when I was growing up, then it is a phrase that I can moan about in UK English.Given the way BCC treat their social housing tenants, I'd be all behind sharking the motherless fucks for cheap real estate.Just out of interest, when did 'real estate' start replacing 'land and 'property' in British Engerlish?
We didn't have this sort of thing back in the day.
If the phrase exists before the country, its not a said country-ism.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on September 22, 2023, 01:46:30 PM
Post by: Ads on September 22, 2023, 01:52:37 PM
I just want us all to get back to some form of normalcy.
That should be the aim this Fall for us all.
Post by: Bad English on September 22, 2023, 02:44:18 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 22, 2023, 02:46:06 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on September 22, 2023, 02:48:43 PM
Post by: Drummond on September 22, 2023, 02:50:30 PM
Post by: Monty on September 22, 2023, 02:52:55 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on September 22, 2023, 03:08:18 PM
Post by: CT Villan on September 22, 2023, 03:29:06 PM
Post by: LeeB on September 22, 2023, 03:48:33 PM
I won't believe it until I see new players in the uniform on the field (ITUOTF).
No doubt the kit will be the wrong color.
Post by: UK Redsox on September 22, 2023, 03:55:15 PM
Good job guys on keeping this going!
It'll stop soon unless we faucet along
Post by: Bad English on September 22, 2023, 04:15:12 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 22, 2023, 04:18:50 PM
Post by: Risso on September 22, 2023, 04:23:54 PM
Aston Villa plays its next game at Chelsea on 9/24
You had to take the joke too far, didn't you?
Post by: Ads on September 22, 2023, 04:28:34 PM
Post by: Bad English on September 22, 2023, 04:47:41 PM
Post by: Ads on September 22, 2023, 04:53:08 PM
Post by: Risso on September 22, 2023, 05:00:35 PM
We've made some changes to the planning application apparently.
Again?
Post by: Drummond on September 22, 2023, 06:14:19 PM
Post by: Virgil Caine on September 22, 2023, 06:51:06 PM
I won't believe it until I see new players in the uniform on the field (ITUOTF).
[/quot[quote
Ahem, I think you meant to say ‘ I won’t believe it until I see duly processed new acquisitions deconstruct the uniform on the Field of Dreams playing grid’ (DPNADTUONTFODPG)
Post by: algy on September 22, 2023, 06:51:49 PM
They need to make room for the Hot Dog concession.And make sure the sidewalks are wide enough
Post by: Percy McCarthy on September 22, 2023, 06:58:11 PM
We've made some changes to the planning application apparently.
Again?
Yeah. Haven’t we seen details/discussed it on here? The Warehouse - 2,500 capacity, open 7 days a week. The planning app mentions the delay of Villa Live which I’m sure we already knew about, and the refurb of Stumps (The Warehouse), and says they’re doing it so they can crack on with the new North Stand quicker than would be the case if they were doing Villa Live.
I can’t think where I read about it if not on here, I don’t think it was on skyscrapercity,
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 22, 2023, 07:18:36 PM
Aston Villa plays its next game at Chelsea on 9/24
You had to take the joke too far, didn't you?
I'm not keen on the US date format but 11/9 wouldn't had the same ring to it.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 22, 2023, 07:28:22 PM
We've made some changes to the planning application apparently.
The removal of Villa Live, the location of a ticket office in the North Stand, the increased number of hospitality areas (probably including £500 steaks from that Salt ****** bloke), and the side entrance to the shop?
That was all in the update that went in last month, it comes up on the 28th of this month and is recommended for approval.
I noticed when I looked yesterday that the entire thing has to be completed by end of 2025.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 22, 2023, 08:58:21 PM
The Everton owner said total costs would be closer to £760m - for a 53k seater.I would love the project if they were prepared to pay £1billion for it.Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
Everton is costing £500 million and it’s next to water.
Of course if you get HS2 in, it would cost 10 billion.
Spurs stadium cost £1b for 63k. Construction started in 2015 and building costs are significantly higher, so to replicate that build would be far more now.
I'd imagine if we were building a new stadium (we're not) we'd want it to be 60k. I'm not sure why you think with additional site assembly costs that Spurs did not have and massively inflated construction fees you think it's so ridiculous that a new stadium would be in the region of £1b.
Chicago - Chris is right. £1bn is the correct number to be using if we want to start again. There’s a shit load of variables but unless we get given the land in an area with unrestricted access then the costs of a 60k stadium will be closer to £1bn than £500m.
Post by: ChicagoLion on September 22, 2023, 10:08:17 PM
so you are reaching out and projecting the Everton situation is not a Goldilocks scenario. I think you need to acclimate the real world potential as well as discounting any down side variables. In the fullness of time the project can have a soft landing as long as we have an off ramp to a better conclusion. From the get go we have been moving towards a sub optimal paradigm. It’s ok that you guys are not exactly rocket scientists but love your sub prime blue collar rear view mirror perspective. It’s how we all grow.The Everton owner said total costs would be closer to £760m - for a 53k seater.I would love the project if they were prepared to pay £1billion for it.Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
Everton is costing £500 million and it’s next to water.
Of course if you get HS2 in, it would cost 10 billion.
Spurs stadium cost £1b for 63k. Construction started in 2015 and building costs are significantly higher, so to replicate that build would be far more now.
I'd imagine if we were building a new stadium (we're not) we'd want it to be 60k. I'm not sure why you think with additional site assembly costs that Spurs did not have and massively inflated construction fees you think it's so ridiculous that a new stadium would be in the region of £1b.
Chicago - Chris is right. £1bn is the correct number to be using if we want to start again. There’s a shit load of variables but unless we get given the land in an area with unrestricted access then the costs of a 60k stadium will be closer to £1bn than £500m.
Post by: Drummond on September 23, 2023, 12:22:48 AM
Post by: Ads on September 23, 2023, 04:22:59 AM
Post by: Bad English on September 23, 2023, 06:29:07 AM
I hear they have added a Cash Converters and a Pay Check™ loans booth too.We've made some changes to the planning application apparently.
The removal of Villa Live, the location of a ticket office in the North Stand, the increased number of hospitality areas (probably including £500 steaks from that Salt ****** bloke), and the side entrance to the shop?
That was all in the update that went in last month, it comes up on the 28th of this month and is recommended for approval.
I noticed when I looked yesterday that the entire thing has to be completed by end of 2025.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on September 23, 2023, 10:23:25 AM
I hear they have added a Cash Converters and a Pay Check™ loans booth too.We've made some changes to the planning application apparently.
The removal of Villa Live, the location of a ticket office in the North Stand, the increased number of hospitality areas (probably including £500 steaks from that Salt ****** bloke), and the side entrance to the shop?
That was all in the update that went in last month, it comes up on the 28th of this month and is recommended for approval.
I noticed when I looked yesterday that the entire thing has to be completed by end of 2025.
Also a large crematorium for the post funeralling clean up of the opposition.
Post by: Nev on September 23, 2023, 10:35:25 AM
Post by: itbrvilla on September 26, 2023, 10:45:55 AM
Quote
Aston Villa is pleased to announce the launch of a new matchday offering for supporters.
The Lower Grounds will open its doors to a fan-focused experience, which will include food and drinks as part of the package, for the first time against Brighton and Hove Albion on Saturday, September 30.
FIND OUT MORE
BUY ONLINE
Located in the former Holte Suite, the Lower Grounds will be open from three hours before kick-off and up to 90 minutes post-match, supporters will be able to take advantage of all-you-can-eat street food as well as a range of beers, wines and soft drinks* while mingling with former players and watching pre-match build-up, interviews and classic matches on large media screens in a convivial atmosphere.
The package will include seats in the Trinity Road Stand or the Doug Ellis Upper and a matchday programme.
Existing season ticket holders can purchase the package as a bolt-on while they may also be bought on a match-by-match basis.
ENQUIRE NOW
An opening offer for the Brighton game is as follows...
Single match package v Brighton - £120 (including VAT)
Season ticket holder bolt-on v Brighton - £60 (including VAT)
To enquire now please contact the Premium team on 0330 314 1322 or email premium@avfc.co.uk. You can also buy directly online by clicking below and signing in:
BUY ONLINE NOW
*Alcoholic beverages available from two-and-a-half hours before kick-off and up to one hour post-match.
Post by: itbrvilla on September 26, 2023, 10:47:21 AM
I'm assuming the £120 doesn't include a matchday ticket?QuoteAston Villa is pleased to announce the launch of a new matchday offering for supporters.
The Lower Grounds will open its doors to a fan-focused experience, which will include food and drinks as part of the package, for the first time against Brighton and Hove Albion on Saturday, September 30.
FIND OUT MORE
BUY ONLINE
Located in the former Holte Suite, the Lower Grounds will be open from three hours before kick-off and up to 90 minutes post-match, supporters will be able to take advantage of all-you-can-eat street food as well as a range of beers, wines and soft drinks* while mingling with former players and watching pre-match build-up, interviews and classic matches on large media screens in a convivial atmosphere.
The package will include seats in the Trinity Road Stand or the Doug Ellis Upper and a matchday programme.
Existing season ticket holders can purchase the package as a bolt-on while they may also be bought on a match-by-match basis.
ENQUIRE NOW
An opening offer for the Brighton game is as follows...
Single match package v Brighton - £120 (including VAT)
Season ticket holder bolt-on v Brighton - £60 (including VAT)
To enquire now please contact the Premium team on 0330 314 1322 or email premium@avfc.co.uk. You can also buy directly online by clicking below and signing in:
BUY ONLINE NOW
*Alcoholic beverages available from two-and-a-half hours before kick-off and up to one hour post-match.
Post by: Towser on September 26, 2023, 10:50:42 AM
Just spotted this in my inbox:The £120 includes a ticket, the £60 does notI'm assuming the £120 doesn't include a matchday ticket?QuoteAston Villa is pleased to announce the launch of a new matchday offering for supporters.
The Lower Grounds will open its doors to a fan-focused experience, which will include food and drinks as part of the package, for the first time against Brighton and Hove Albion on Saturday, September 30.
FIND OUT MORE
BUY ONLINE
Located in the former Holte Suite, the Lower Grounds will be open from three hours before kick-off and up to 90 minutes post-match, supporters will be able to take advantage of all-you-can-eat street food as well as a range of beers, wines and soft drinks* while mingling with former players and watching pre-match build-up, interviews and classic matches on large media screens in a convivial atmosphere.
The package will include seats in the Trinity Road Stand or the Doug Ellis Upper and a matchday programme.
Existing season ticket holders can purchase the package as a bolt-on while they may also be bought on a match-by-match basis.
ENQUIRE NOW
An opening offer for the Brighton game is as follows...
Single match package v Brighton - £120 (including VAT)
Season ticket holder bolt-on v Brighton - £60 (including VAT)
To enquire now please contact the Premium team on 0330 314 1322 or email premium@avfc.co.uk. You can also buy directly online by clicking below and signing in:
BUY ONLINE NOW
*Alcoholic beverages available from two-and-a-half hours before kick-off and up to one hour post-match.
Post by: itbrvilla on September 26, 2023, 10:55:36 AM
Post by: The Edge on September 26, 2023, 10:56:44 AM
I'd have to be a rocket surgeon or a brain scientist to understand thatso you are reaching out and projecting the Everton situation is not a Goldilocks scenario. I think you need to acclimate the real world potential as well as discounting any down side variables. In the fullness of time the project can have a soft landing as long as we have an off ramp to a better conclusion. From the get go we have been moving towards a sub optimal paradigm. It’s ok that you guys are not exactly rocket scientists but love your sub prime blue collar rear view mirror perspective. It’s how we all grow.The Everton owner said total costs would be closer to £760m - for a 53k seater.I would love the project if they were prepared to pay £1billion for it.Not just 4 stands though, is it? There's the pitch, offices, shop, car park, other buildings. You've also got all the infrastructure underneath the stand.So 4 stands is £400 million, I am struggling to find a piece of real estate in Birmingham for £600 million.£1billion?
The North Stand is costing the best part of £100 million
I can quite well imagine a new ground would be approaching £1b.
Everton is costing £500 million and it’s next to water.
Of course if you get HS2 in, it would cost 10 billion.
Spurs stadium cost £1b for 63k. Construction started in 2015 and building costs are significantly higher, so to replicate that build would be far more now.
I'd imagine if we were building a new stadium (we're not) we'd want it to be 60k. I'm not sure why you think with additional site assembly costs that Spurs did not have and massively inflated construction fees you think it's so ridiculous that a new stadium would be in the region of £1b.
Chicago - Chris is right. £1bn is the correct number to be using if we want to start again. There’s a shit load of variables but unless we get given the land in an area with unrestricted access then the costs of a 60k stadium will be closer to £1bn than £500m.
Post by: LeeB on September 26, 2023, 11:08:31 AM
Post by: paul_e on September 26, 2023, 01:26:29 PM
Just spotted this in my inbox:The £120 includes a ticket, the £60 does notI'm assuming the £120 doesn't include a matchday ticket?QuoteAston Villa is pleased to announce the launch of a new matchday offering for supporters.
The Lower Grounds will open its doors to a fan-focused experience, which will include food and drinks as part of the package, for the first time against Brighton and Hove Albion on Saturday, September 30.
FIND OUT MORE
BUY ONLINE
Located in the former Holte Suite, the Lower Grounds will be open from three hours before kick-off and up to 90 minutes post-match, supporters will be able to take advantage of all-you-can-eat street food as well as a range of beers, wines and soft drinks* while mingling with former players and watching pre-match build-up, interviews and classic matches on large media screens in a convivial atmosphere.
The package will include seats in the Trinity Road Stand or the Doug Ellis Upper and a matchday programme.
Existing season ticket holders can purchase the package as a bolt-on while they may also be bought on a match-by-match basis.
ENQUIRE NOW
An opening offer for the Brighton game is as follows...
Single match package v Brighton - £120 (including VAT)
Season ticket holder bolt-on v Brighton - £60 (including VAT)
To enquire now please contact the Premium team on 0330 314 1322 or email premium@avfc.co.uk. You can also buy directly online by clicking below and signing in:
BUY ONLINE NOW
*Alcoholic beverages available from two-and-a-half hours before kick-off and up to one hour post-match.
I know it's not a popular opinion on here but that doesn't seem all that bad to me. I'd guess it depends a bit on what you think is reasonable to spend on food and beer at a stadium/venue but £10-12 for something to eat and £5-6 a pint is about what I'd expect (given the offerings at places like Edgbaston).
Post by: chrisw1 on September 26, 2023, 01:31:52 PM
Crazy there is no real discount for ST holdersThere is. ST holders pay 60 quid. Everyone else pays £120 inc a match ticket (say £45.50) so they're paying £74.50 for the Holte Suite.
Post by: frank black on September 26, 2023, 01:32:02 PM
“a maximum of two drinks for each person can be ordered at any one time.”
Post by: frank black on September 26, 2023, 02:12:23 PM
Just spotted this in my inbox:The £120 includes a ticket, the £60 does notI'm assuming the £120 doesn't include a matchday ticket?QuoteAston Villa is pleased to announce the launch of a new matchday offering for supporters.
The Lower Grounds will open its doors to a fan-focused experience, which will include food and drinks as part of the package, for the first time against Brighton and Hove Albion on Saturday, September 30.
FIND OUT MORE
BUY ONLINE
Located in the former Holte Suite, the Lower Grounds will be open from three hours before kick-off and up to 90 minutes post-match, supporters will be able to take advantage of all-you-can-eat street food as well as a range of beers, wines and soft drinks* while mingling with former players and watching pre-match build-up, interviews and classic matches on large media screens in a convivial atmosphere.
The package will include seats in the Trinity Road Stand or the Doug Ellis Upper and a matchday programme.
Existing season ticket holders can purchase the package as a bolt-on while they may also be bought on a match-by-match basis.
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An opening offer for the Brighton game is as follows...
Single match package v Brighton - £120 (including VAT)
Season ticket holder bolt-on v Brighton - £60 (including VAT)
To enquire now please contact the Premium team on 0330 314 1322 or email premium@avfc.co.uk. You can also buy directly online by clicking below and signing in:
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*Alcoholic beverages available from two-and-a-half hours before kick-off and up to one hour post-match.
I know it's not a popular opinion on here but that doesn't seem all that bad to me. I'd guess it depends a bit on what you think is reasonable to spend on food and beer at a stadium/venue but £10-12 for something to eat and £5-6 a pint is about what I'd expect (given the offerings at places like Edgbaston).
Just the 8/9 pints to consume to break even
(Although there’s the extra value in no queues , meeting Lee Hendrie etc..,)
Post by: Nev on September 26, 2023, 05:20:04 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on September 26, 2023, 06:57:05 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 26, 2023, 06:59:44 PM
I assume the Trinity seats (for the seat package) are in A3. The ticket page has startd to lockout all of A3 for the Premier home games (Brighton and West Ham so far). A bit of a p***** for me. I use my Claret membership so I can get tickets close to family season ticket holders in A3.
Sounds like a perfect excuse to try out the Premium Experience.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 27, 2023, 11:05:32 AM
I assume the Trinity seats (for the seat package) are in A3. The ticket page has startd to lockout all of A3 for the Premier home games (Brighton and West Ham so far). A bit of a p***** for me. I use my Claret membership so I can get tickets close to family season ticket holders in A3.Yep looks like it. There's a 'premium experiences' button for the Brighton game which is now offering Terrace View as a £45 bolt-on for ST holders. 55 Terrace View tickets left. Lower Ground £60 bolt-on (an introductory offer I imagine) - 143 tickets left.
As much as I'm against Terrace View, there's clearly demand for these spaces.
There's no premium button for West Ham - they really need to sort the website out if they want to sell these things.
Post by: chrisw1 on September 28, 2023, 03:22:39 PM
#AVFC can celebrate two milestones today:
Plans to speed up the £100m expansion of the North Stand, with a shop, ticket office, and an improved F&B offer, have been approved.✅
As has 'The Warehouse', which will be repurposed into a fan zone, with food/drink & events space. ✅
These plans are (S73) amendments to previously approved Dec 2022 plans to increase VP from 42,657 up to 50,065, along with Villa Live.
Post by: DB on September 28, 2023, 03:27:19 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on September 28, 2023, 03:54:23 PM
Post by: LeeB on September 28, 2023, 04:46:53 PM
I'm assuming they will be squeezing every sq inch of hospitality they possibly can into this stand, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on the concourses being great.
Or the prices.
Post by: hipkiss92 on September 29, 2023, 01:38:57 PM
I'm assuming they will be squeezing every sq inch of hospitality they possibly can into this stand, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on the concourses being great.
At the very least minimum design standards they will now have to meet will be better than anything else currently around the ground.
Post by: SoccerHQ on September 29, 2023, 08:58:52 PM
Post by: FatSam on September 29, 2023, 09:47:59 PM
I thought capacity was going to be 52k? So we've lost 2k seats somewhere in the redesign unless that dosen't include corporate sections.No, the capacity following Witton End redevelopment was always going to be 50k. The extra couple of thousand will be from subsequent adaptations - like I think in the corner between the Holte and Witton Lane.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on September 29, 2023, 09:51:57 PM
Post by: eamonn on September 30, 2023, 12:02:02 PM
Post by: olaftab on October 03, 2023, 11:13:09 PM
Post by: olaftab on October 03, 2023, 11:13:51 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 03, 2023, 11:18:38 PM
Villa Live now becomes a cheap conversion to The Warehouse.
To be honest, though, who gives a shit?
If there's an old Victorian building that can be repurposed tastefully, and it leaves more public space closer to the stand, as it's on the edge of the plot, then that's quite possibly a good idea.
Villa Live would only have turned into some sort of wallet-rinsing sort of urban ski lodge hell hole in any case. I'd prefer empty space.
Post by: VillaTim on October 03, 2023, 11:40:24 PM
Villa Live now becomes a cheap conversion to The Warehouse.Better use of the budget and a decent building that can be reinvented. Good move.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 04, 2023, 12:28:00 AM
Villa Live now becomes a cheap conversion to The Warehouse.Better use of the budget and a decent building that can be reinvented. Good move.
Yes, good idea. Might inspire them to refurb and re-open the old Holte Hotel bar along Witton Lane too. I just wish they’d use all this to enhance the match day experience for the many, not the few. Could be so vibrant, so much potential.
Post by: algy on October 04, 2023, 07:30:11 AM
Absolutely agree there.Villa Live now becomes a cheap conversion to The Warehouse.
To be honest, though, who gives a shit?
If there's an old Victorian building that can be repurposed tastefully, and it leaves more public space closer to the stand, as it's on the edge of the plot, then that's quite possibly a good idea.
Villa Live would only have turned into some sort of wallet-rinsing sort of urban ski lodge hell hole in any case. I'd prefer empty space.
Post by: chrisw1 on October 04, 2023, 09:03:31 AM
Post by: Dick Edwards on October 04, 2023, 09:08:54 AM
When Lerner refurbed the Holte Hotel wasn't it ticket only?
It was by invitation only initially. Even as a season ticket holder I only managed to get inside once, though I did use the outside bar before the Everton game. That facility was open to anybody.
Post by: sid1964 on October 04, 2023, 09:12:03 AM
Post by: Ads on October 04, 2023, 10:22:18 AM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on October 04, 2023, 10:29:08 AM
Post by: PaulTheVillan on October 04, 2023, 10:31:18 AM
With the breaking news that England & Ireland will get the 2028 Euro finals as Turkey have now pulled out the upgrade on the Witton Station should be a mere formality.The Government will cancel it this afternoon.
Post by: Drummond on October 04, 2023, 10:59:07 AM
With the breaking news that England & Ireland will get the 2028 Euro finals as Turkey have now pulled out the upgrade on the Witton Station should be a mere formality.The Government will cancel it this afternoon.
More likely they'll deny it's even a thing.
Post by: aj2k77 on October 04, 2023, 11:06:23 AM
Post by: Gareth on October 04, 2023, 12:29:10 PM
Post by: The Edge on October 04, 2023, 07:59:27 PM
That's a huge undertaking in that corner, seeing as there's already a load of seats there in the Holte that you can't see the pitch from.We've got HDE to thank for the dogs dinner that is the Witton/ Holte corner.
Post by: Ads on October 04, 2023, 08:50:57 PM
Other musing is when they do the North, the FA Cup allocation will be 7500. You'd think that the North will have a lot of corporate and enhanced packages, even if the lower tier is a rail seated noisey affair. I wonder if we'll get our away fans in the lower Witton like that Man United Cup game?
Post by: KevinGage on October 04, 2023, 09:00:13 PM
Wondering a few things; wouldn't it be easier to redevelop the Holte than the Witton? There's probably schemes you could undertake to fully re-build the Witton, but are you adding that much capacity? You could improve facilities and offerings, but if you wanted to increase B6 to 60,000, then a giant 23,500 single tier monster Holte would work best. Loads of space to do it. Sort the corner of the Witton out too.
Approved.
The North Stand is almost iconic, in its own weird way. Leave it alone.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 04, 2023, 09:03:26 PM
Ridiculously narrow and stinks of late 70s lack of ambition.
Post by: ChicagoLion on October 04, 2023, 09:05:15 PM
The North Stand is an embarassment.The Witton is also crap. The view is great but everything else is awful.
Ridiculously narrow and stinks of late 70s lack of ambition.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 04, 2023, 09:06:05 PM
The North Stand is an embarassment.
Ridiculously narrow and stinks of late 70s lack of ambition.
Agreed, the sooner it's knocked down the better.
Post by: Ads on October 04, 2023, 09:12:32 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 04, 2023, 09:17:17 PM
Just thinking, if we're dropping £100m on another rebuild for phase 2, then a mega Holte would be just amazing.
Only if they keep the mosaics, steps and Terrace View.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 04, 2023, 09:53:32 PM
Anyway, I think they’ve already said the DE is next.
Post by: rob_bridge on October 04, 2023, 09:55:04 PM
The North Stand is an embarassment.The Witton is also crap. The view is great but everything else is awful.
Ridiculously narrow and stinks of late 70s lack of ambition.
The view is important if all you want to do is go the match a few mins before kick off, do little else during the match and leave immediately after. It does need replacing but not in the same league as the North Stand which really is woeful
Post by: TonyD on October 04, 2023, 11:00:10 PM
Wondering a few things; wouldn't it be easier to redevelop the Holte than the Witton? There's probably schemes you could undertake to fully re-build the Witton, but are you adding that much capacity? You could improve facilities and offerings, but if you wanted to increase B6 to 60,000, then a giant 23,500 single tier monster Holte would work best. Loads of space to do it. Sort the corner of the Witton out too.A new single tier Holte would be a massive draw.
Other musing is when they do the North, the FA Cup allocation will be 7500. You'd think that the North will have a lot of corporate and enhanced packages, even if the lower tier is a rail seated noisey affair. I wonder if we'll get our away fans in the lower Witton like that Man United Cup game?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 04, 2023, 11:00:38 PM
Just thinking, if we're dropping £100m on another rebuild for phase 2, then a mega Holte would be just amazing.
Only if they keep the mosaics, steps and Terrace View.
A massive, twelve storey Terrace View perched atop the Holte. Fuck yeah.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on October 04, 2023, 11:03:49 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on October 05, 2023, 08:35:51 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/93/63/4a/93634a96ccae79e82fa9a0caf128f897.jpg)
Post by: DB on October 10, 2023, 11:44:52 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on October 10, 2023, 11:50:28 AM
Post by: DB on October 10, 2023, 11:54:06 AM
They won't be doing the DE.
It was more of a wish, but they are reconfiguring it...whatever that means, to get capacity to 52k?
Post by: Gareth on October 10, 2023, 11:54:33 AM
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
Post by: chrisw1 on October 10, 2023, 12:05:10 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on October 10, 2023, 12:05:53 PM
VP is dependent on it being 52k so if redevelopment of North is delayed significa seently the ground will be removed I’d guess.If they started the improvement to Witton station,it should be finished about 2030 with luck
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
Post by: The Edge on October 10, 2023, 12:09:01 PM
VP is dependent on it being 52k so if redevelopment of North is delayed significantly the ground will be removed I’d guess.I don't think 52k is a stipulation for VP to hold the Euros. Casement Park will hold 34,500 after redevelopment. I believe the money for Witton Station rebuild is already earmarked. This news should get things moving.
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
Post by: Lastfootstamper on October 10, 2023, 12:14:04 PM
Post by: The Edge on October 10, 2023, 12:20:21 PM
Out of interest, are there plans one can look at of any proposed improvements to Witton station? Would the current matchday problems be then alleviated without the running of extra trains, or are extra trains key to any improvement?I'm guessing here but I would think maybe extra trains which would be much longer due to the platforms being extended would be crucial for moving more people a lot quicker to and from the stadium. New St can accommodate the much longer trains. I haven't seen any plans as yet but I'd expect things to speed up following the announcement.
Post by: Gareth on October 10, 2023, 12:32:25 PM
VP is dependent on it being 52k so if redevelopment of North is delayed significantly the ground will be removed I’d guess.I don't think 52k is a stipulation for VP to hold the Euros. Casement Park will hold 34,500 after redevelopment. I believe the money for Witton Station rebuild is already earmarked. This news should get things moving.
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
I think it is a stipulation
52,190 is the advertised capacity
Post by: algy on October 10, 2023, 12:32:34 PM
Out of interest, are there plans one can look at of any proposed improvements to Witton station? Would the current matchday problems be then alleviated without the running of extra trains, or are extra trains key to any improvement?As I understand it, there's a few limiting factors. The layout of the station I don't think is too much of an issue - 1 platform in either direction can cope with a pretty high frequency service - there's plenty of examples of 2 platform stations which operate at very high capacity (e.g. platforms 13 & 14 at Manchester Piccadilly*).
Extending the platforms would allow for more coaches. I'd wonder if that was likely, though, because basically those trains have to be lugging those coaches - containing mostly fresh air except for a couple of busy periods between 1pm-3pm and 5pm-6pm - around all day. So I guess you might see longer trains, but I think it's more likely that you wouldn't because it doesn't make an awful lot of operational sense.
I'd think perhaps - and I'm just speculating here - the problem lies as much with the availability of train crew (which is not going to be solved by HS2), and the lack of capacity at Birmingham New Street station (which will be helped by HS2, regardless of the extension).
* edit: I realised after I wrote that, it looks like I'm contradicting myself. Basically Platforms 1-12 are terminus platforms at Piccadilly, so all trains finish there. Platforms 13 & 14 are the only two 'through' platforms, where trains go to Manchester then carry on to wherever their destination is (Liverpool, Glasgow, Blackpool, ...). In effect, those two platforms effectively operate as a separate station from the rest of Manchester Piccadilly.
Post by: The Edge on October 10, 2023, 12:39:42 PM
I thought it was quoted as 50k and a few hundred after the rebuild? And why would we be held to 52k if another venue ie Casement Park in Belfast will only hold 34,500 after its rebuild?VP is dependent on it being 52k so if redevelopment of North is delayed significantly the ground will be removed I’d guess.I don't think 52k is a stipulation for VP to hold the Euros. Casement Park will hold 34,500 after redevelopment. I believe the money for Witton Station rebuild is already earmarked. This news should get things moving.
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
I think it is a stipulation
52,190 is the advertised capacity
Post by: London Villan on October 10, 2023, 12:48:53 PM
Witton will probably remain as it is - just improvements to queues and routes to and from the ground.
Post by: Gareth on October 10, 2023, 12:59:59 PM
I thought it was quoted as 50k and a few hundred after the rebuild? And why would we be held to 52k if another venue ie Casement Park in Belfast will only hold 34,500 after its rebuild?VP is dependent on it being 52k so if redevelopment of North is delayed significantly the ground will be removed I’d guess.I don't think 52k is a stipulation for VP to hold the Euros. Casement Park will hold 34,500 after redevelopment. I believe the money for Witton Station rebuild is already earmarked. This news should get things moving.
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
I think it is a stipulation
52,190 is the advertised capacity
Don’t know but every listing on stadiums says VP is 52,190 and an average of 58k across all grounds.
Guess Notthern Ireland dont need a 50k+ stadium and can hold some of the smaller games & countries
Post by: AV82EC on October 10, 2023, 01:05:02 PM
Out of interest, are there plans one can look at of any proposed improvements to Witton station? Would the current matchday problems be then alleviated without the running of extra trains, or are extra trains key to any improvement?As I understand it, there's a few limiting factors. The layout of the station I don't think is too much of an issue - 1 platform in either direction can cope with a pretty high frequency service - there's plenty of examples of 2 platform stations which operate at very high capacity (e.g. platforms 13 & 14 at Manchester Piccadilly*).
Extending the platforms would allow for more coaches. I'd wonder if that was likely, though, because basically those trains have to be lugging those coaches - containing mostly fresh air except for a couple of busy periods between 1pm-3pm and 5pm-6pm - around all day. So I guess you might see longer trains, but I think it's more likely that you wouldn't because it doesn't make an awful lot of operational sense.
I'd think perhaps - and I'm just speculating here - the problem lies as much with the availability of train crew (which is not going to be solved by HS2), and the lack of capacity at Birmingham New Street station (which will be helped by HS2, regardless of the extension).
* edit: I realised after I wrote that, it looks like I'm contradicting myself. Basically Platforms 1-12 are terminus platforms at Piccadilly, so all trains finish there. Platforms 13 & 14 are the only two 'through' platforms, where trains go to Manchester then carry on to wherever their destination is (Liverpool, Glasgow, Blackpool, ...). In effect, those two platforms effectively operate as a separate station from the rest of Manchester Piccadilly.
You are correct algy though I think most citizens of the northern outpost would laugh at the suggestion that Platforms 13 and 14 are in anyway operating effectively.
Post by: The Edge on October 10, 2023, 01:23:24 PM
Fair enough but I just don't think we would lose our place just because we end up with 50k instead of 52k which is what I think you meant.I thought it was quoted as 50k and a few hundred after the rebuild? And why would we be held to 52k if another venue ie Casement Park in Belfast will only hold 34,500 after its rebuild?VP is dependent on it being 52k so if redevelopment of North is delayed significantly the ground will be removed I’d guess.I don't think 52k is a stipulation for VP to hold the Euros. Casement Park will hold 34,500 after redevelopment. I believe the money for Witton Station rebuild is already earmarked. This news should get things moving.
Need Witton Station sorting out - will it come out of the cancelled HS2 pot?
I think it is a stipulation
52,190 is the advertised capacity
Don’t know but every listing on stadiums says VP is 52,190 and an average of 58k across all grounds.
Guess Notthern Ireland dont need a 50k+ stadium and can hold some of the smaller games & countries
Post by: Lastfootstamper on October 10, 2023, 01:28:20 PM
Do any PL stadiums around the country add extra trains for match-days. I know a big problem for scheduling trains is the constant moving of fixtures - which causes issues for rolling stock and drivers. But surely there are ways around this?!
Witton will probably remain as it is - just improvements to queues and routes to and from the ground.
Much like hopes of improvements to the concourse offerings inside most parts of the stadium, I feel that if getting extra or longer trains was something remotely viable it would have happened by now.
Post by: DeKuip on October 10, 2023, 01:29:42 PM
Transport wouldn’t be such a problem for the Euros as dates and times would be known over a year in advance giving plenty of time for proper planning.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 10, 2023, 01:29:58 PM
Do any PL stadiums around the country add extra trains for match-days. I know a big problem for scheduling trains is the constant moving of fixtures - which causes issues for rolling stock and drivers. But surely there are ways around this?!
Witton will probably remain as it is - just improvements to queues and routes to and from the ground.
Much like hopes of improvements to the concourse offerings inside most parts of the stadium, I feel that if getting extra or longer trains was something remotely viable it would have happened by now.
The platforms are probably too short, that's the usual problem with longer trains.
Post by: Lastfootstamper on October 10, 2023, 01:45:54 PM
Post by: The Edge on October 10, 2023, 03:20:03 PM
Post by: Drummond on October 10, 2023, 03:21:37 PM
Post by: London Villan on October 10, 2023, 03:35:18 PM
The two lifts and a new entrance at Snow Hill cost £17m 10 years ago.
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 05:18:18 PM
Post by: Drummond on October 10, 2023, 05:21:16 PM
Why can't we just run some fucking buses instead of all this witton station bollocks. Being reliant on this could scupper all the plans, I think it's nuts.
Because fucking buses get caught in traffic, decent trains are faster, have more capacity and are safer too.
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 05:23:58 PM
Bollocks. Bus lanes. Buses can go anywhere in the conurbation, trains can't. Train infrastructure is a monumentally expensive ripoff and Villa tying themselves to Witton station improvements is asking for trouble.Why can't we just run some fucking buses instead of all this witton station bollocks. Being reliant on this could scupper all the plans, I think it's nuts.
Because fucking buses get caught in traffic, decent trains are faster, have more capacity and are safer too.
Post by: AV82EC on October 10, 2023, 05:26:59 PM
Why can't we just run some fucking buses instead of all this witton station bollocks. Being reliant on this could scupper all the plans, I think it's nuts.
Buses can shift a small proportion in people per hour terms than a metro or rail system so you’re not solving the problem. Get Witton and Aston stations infrastructure right I.e 6 or 8 car trains able to be accommodated and programmed for pre and post match services and you’ll have a lot of happy people, throw in free WM travel on match day and you’ll get some modal shift out of cars. This ain’t fucking rocket science and the fact it takes us to host a major event to even think about sorting it out is quite frankly shameful and pathetic, but hey we’re not that there London.
Post by: London Villan on October 10, 2023, 05:36:10 PM
Post by: AV82EC on October 10, 2023, 05:40:12 PM
Unlikey to have longer or more frequent train due to the last minute re-scheduling of matches.
Not for a major tournament though where you know the fixtures about 6 months in advance. You have a point on the rescheduling issue for days to day league stuff but surely if you’re improving Infra that maybe gives better headway for more services or are we saying the Walsall and Lichfield lines are at capacity?
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 05:45:42 PM
Depends how many coaches you put on. Aziz coaches in Sparkbrook have 6 coaches available immediately at very reasonable prices. It's all very well talking about fancy metro systems and the like but in case you hadn't noticed the city's bankrupt. I really doubt the wisdom of tying Villa Park expansion to major public transport improvements and 'modal shift' because that takes massive public expenditure and years. It will not happen before the euros and I worry Birmingham will lose out in hosting Euro 2028 without it let alone 10k extra Villa fans being able to get to games.Why can't we just run some fucking buses instead of all this witton station bollocks. Being reliant on this could scupper all the plans, I think it's nuts.
Buses can shift a small proportion in people per hour terms than a metro or rail system so you’re not solving the problem. Get Witton and Aston stations infrastructure right I.e 6 or 8 car trains able to be accommodated and programmed for pre and post match services and you’ll have a lot of happy people, throw in free WM travel on match day and you’ll get some modal shift out of cars. This ain’t fucking rocket science and the fact it takes us to host a major event to even think about sorting it out is quite frankly shameful and pathetic, but hey we’re not that there London.
Post by: AV82EC on October 10, 2023, 05:58:16 PM
It’s interesting peoples reactions to spending some money on a very minor bit of rail infrastructure seem to be nah sod that lets burn more fossil fuels on coaches and buses which don’t solve the problem and will add to it because pre and post match what Aston and Witton really need is more traffic.
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 06:13:35 PM
I'm sceptical of any politician ponying up the necessary cash in anything less than a few years and that will hold back Villa getting the expansion it needs and it's fans deserve let alone Birmingham potentially losing out on Euro 2028.
But that's fine for you in your ivory tower because you clearly don't want to accept the view that Witton station improvements will take fucking forever.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 10, 2023, 06:16:23 PM
We could use loads of buses as a stop gap solution for the duration of the championships, much as was done for the CWG, but more road transport is not going to be a long term solution, not ever.
Post by: Lsvilla on October 10, 2023, 06:17:12 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 10, 2023, 06:17:15 PM
I'm sceptical of any politician ponying up the necessary cash in anything less than a few years and that will hold back Villa getting the expansion it needs and it's fans deserve let alone Birmingham potentially losing out on Euro 2028.
I thought the club had said the expansion is not contingent on the transport being updated first, anyway?
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 06:22:14 PM
Buses are never going to be the solution, as AV82EC said, they just add to the problem.Is a sensible answer. Apart from the last sentence. I think clean buses can be a major part of the answer. But that's a different discussion. I do hope stadium expansion isn't tied to Witton Station, I hope you're right.
We could use loads of buses as a stop gap solution for the duration of the championships, much as was done for the CWG, but more road transport is not going to be a long term solution, not ever.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 10, 2023, 06:28:09 PM
Buses are never going to be the solution, as AV82EC said, they just add to the problem.Is a sensible answer. Apart from the last sentence. I think clean buses can be a major part of the answer. But that's a different discussion. I do hope stadium expansion isn't tied to Witton Station, I hope you're right.
We could use loads of buses as a stop gap solution for the duration of the championships, much as was done for the CWG, but more road transport is not going to be a long term solution, not ever.
You can put as many buses on the road as you like, but they're going to get stuck in the same non-moving hellscape after the game as everyone else driving is.
The problem with increasing road capacity is that you either use what you have more sensibly, or you build more roads or widen those you have (clearly not going to happen).
The answer is to provide much improved public transport access, which has the effect of reducing load on the roads, and strategically controlling the flow of road traffic after the match.
I used to park on the old Asda car park, and turning left out of there and getting to the motorway used to be a pain in the arse. But for the last few years I've tried parking anywhere that involves heading in that direction, it has been literally five times as bad - because rather than have temporary one way systems, someone thinks it's a good idea not to bother, and it's a total free for all.
Sorting things like that make the difference.
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 06:42:22 PM
I would argue for a park and ride set up. Shuttle buses or coaches in and out of Villa park vicinity to 5-6 satellite large car parks or existing public transport hubs. Encourage walking as well.Buses are never going to be the solution, as AV82EC said, they just add to the problem.Is a sensible answer. Apart from the last sentence. I think clean buses can be a major part of the answer. But that's a different discussion. I do hope stadium expansion isn't tied to Witton Station, I hope you're right.
We could use loads of buses as a stop gap solution for the duration of the championships, much as was done for the CWG, but more road transport is not going to be a long term solution, not ever.
You can put as many buses on the road as you like, but they're going to get stuck in the same non-moving hellscape after the game as everyone else driving is.
The problem with increasing road capacity is that you either use what you have more sensibly, or you build more roads or widen those you have (clearly not going to happen).
The answer is to provide much improved public transport access, which has the effect of reducing load on the roads, and strategically controlling the flow of road traffic after the match.
I used to park on the old Asda car park, and turning left out of there and getting to the motorway used to be a pain in the arse. But for the last few years I've tried parking anywhere that involves heading in that direction, it has been literally five times as bad - because rather than have temporary one way systems, someone thinks it's a good idea not to bother, and it's a total free for all.
Sorting things like that make the difference.
Post by: AV82EC on October 10, 2023, 07:01:06 PM
I would argue for a park and ride set up. Shuttle buses or coaches in and out of Villa park vicinity to 5-6 satellite large car parks or existing public transport hubs. Encourage walking as well.Buses are never going to be the solution, as AV82EC said, they just add to the problem.Is a sensible answer. Apart from the last sentence. I think clean buses can be a major part of the answer. But that's a different discussion. I do hope stadium expansion isn't tied to Witton Station, I hope you're right.
We could use loads of buses as a stop gap solution for the duration of the championships, much as was done for the CWG, but more road transport is not going to be a long term solution, not ever.
You can put as many buses on the road as you like, but they're going to get stuck in the same non-moving hellscape after the game as everyone else driving is.
The problem with increasing road capacity is that you either use what you have more sensibly, or you build more roads or widen those you have (clearly not going to happen).
The answer is to provide much improved public transport access, which has the effect of reducing load on the roads, and strategically controlling the flow of road traffic after the match.
I used to park on the old Asda car park, and turning left out of there and getting to the motorway used to be a pain in the arse. But for the last few years I've tried parking anywhere that involves heading in that direction, it has been literally five times as bad - because rather than have temporary one way systems, someone thinks it's a good idea not to bother, and it's a total free for all.
Sorting things like that make the difference.
I’d agree with you if that was train as the ride part <winky thing> though tbf you could probably do both and massively improve the situation. Where the City Council could help is by massively restricting on street parking close to the ground and try to force modal shift but freedom of choice comes into play here as well so it’s a fine balancing act.
Post by: tomd2103 on October 10, 2023, 07:54:07 PM
I would argue for a park and ride set up. Shuttle buses or coaches in and out of Villa park vicinity to 5-6 satellite large car parks or existing public transport hubs. Encourage walking as well.Buses are never going to be the solution, as AV82EC said, they just add to the problem.Is a sensible answer. Apart from the last sentence. I think clean buses can be a major part of the answer. But that's a different discussion. I do hope stadium expansion isn't tied to Witton Station, I hope you're right.
We could use loads of buses as a stop gap solution for the duration of the championships, much as was done for the CWG, but more road transport is not going to be a long term solution, not ever.
You can put as many buses on the road as you like, but they're going to get stuck in the same non-moving hellscape after the game as everyone else driving is.
The problem with increasing road capacity is that you either use what you have more sensibly, or you build more roads or widen those you have (clearly not going to happen).
The answer is to provide much improved public transport access, which has the effect of reducing load on the roads, and strategically controlling the flow of road traffic after the match.
I used to park on the old Asda car park, and turning left out of there and getting to the motorway used to be a pain in the arse. But for the last few years I've tried parking anywhere that involves heading in that direction, it has been literally five times as bad - because rather than have temporary one way systems, someone thinks it's a good idea not to bother, and it's a total free for all.
Sorting things like that make the difference.
Alexander Stadium, Aston University playing fields and Moor Lane playing fields would be obvious locations if parking facilities could be sorted there.
Post by: N'ZMAV on October 10, 2023, 07:55:22 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on October 10, 2023, 07:59:45 PM
Post by: Gareth on October 10, 2023, 08:00:30 PM
Bare minimum will be done to ensure any planning goes through for development and come the Euros the bus shuttles like Commenwealth Games will operate
Post by: Ads on October 10, 2023, 08:12:51 PM
I'm sceptical of any politician ponying up the necessary cash in anything less than a few years and that will hold back Villa getting the expansion it needs and it's fans deserve let alone Birmingham potentially losing out on Euro 2028.
I thought the club had said the expansion is not contingent on the transport being updated first, anyway?
It's not. Planning is approved without Witton Station. We just agree to chuck ideas at it.
Post by: IFWaters on October 10, 2023, 08:22:37 PM
I think we all know the answer is a monorail.Teleport is more likely
Post by: spartacuss on October 10, 2023, 08:44:47 PM
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
Post by: Stu82 on October 10, 2023, 09:47:02 PM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
It’s amazing the highways people never consider the effects of simple changes.
Seems like they just don’t care!
Post by: Risso on October 11, 2023, 09:20:03 AM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
Spot on.
Post by: Drummond on October 11, 2023, 10:24:14 AM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
Spot on.
Yep agree with this completely.
The one way system, and changes to that roundabout would clear traffic so quickly. It's utterly bizarre that it continues like it is. I feel for the locals trying to get about, often against the flow of traffic. It's like a dog-eats-dog world out there and brings out the worst in people too when the traffic is so bad.
Fix the traffic, fix the trains, lay on buses and it's sorted.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 11, 2023, 10:57:14 AM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
This is part of what i was referring to in my post on the previous page, over the last few years, the traffic management of that route away from the ground has made things considerably - not a bit, but a lot - worse
Post by: chrisw1 on October 11, 2023, 11:28:17 AM
Depends how many coaches you put on. Aziz coaches in Sparkbrook have 6 coaches available immediately at very reasonable prices. It's all very well talking about fancy metro systems and the like but in case you hadn't noticed the city's bankrupt. I really doubt the wisdom of tying Villa Park expansion to major public transport improvements and 'modal shift' because that takes massive public expenditure and years. It will not happen before the euros and I worry Birmingham will lose out in hosting Euro 2028 without it let alone 10k extra Villa fans being able to get to games.Excellent, that's 240 people sorted. What about the other 49,760?
I guess if some wait for the second trip (an hour or so after the final whistle I'd guess?) there's another 240 sorted.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on October 11, 2023, 01:07:17 PM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
This is part of what i was referring to in my post on the previous page, over the last few years, the traffic management of that route away from the ground has made things considerably - not a bit, but a lot - worse
It’s more like traffic mismanagement. The simplest solution is to regulate traffic lights for two hours after the game with a bias. If they can’t be regulated easily or quickly for that two hour period switch them off.
Post by: LeeB on October 11, 2023, 01:27:36 PM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
This is part of what i was referring to in my post on the previous page, over the last few years, the traffic management of that route away from the ground has made things considerably - not a bit, but a lot - worse
It’s more like traffic mismanagement. The simplest solution is to regulate traffic lights for two hours after the game with a bias. If they can’t be regulated easily or quickly for that two hour period switch them off.
Exactly this.
For example, the introduction of traffic lights which work in similar ways at both the Spitfire island by the Jag and the at J5 at the bottom of the Collector Rd made a huge difference in queues both ways.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on October 11, 2023, 02:59:22 PM
However, even here the local Police have traffic cops on the busiest roundabouts during the morning rush hour........................so why can't West Midlands finest have local Police directing traffic after a match?
Post by: spartacuss on October 11, 2023, 03:01:44 PM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
Update. Managed to get through to someone in Birmingham City Council (tortuous process - wouldn't recommend it - probably made worse by the presence of the Govistas!). She was very patient and helpful and accepted it was a problem and is putting it forward to the Highways Dept. and gave the issue a reference Number HGE013166 and location: Road name: SALFORD CIRCUS Ward: GRAVELLY HILL. The email acknowledgement said I should be contacted within 5 - 10 days. (Probably shouldn't hold our fug-filled breaths until something concrete emerges...)
Will update again as and when.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 11, 2023, 03:22:29 PM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
Update. Managed to get through to someone in Birmingham City Council (tortuous process - wouldn't recommend it - probably made worse by the presence of the Govistas!). She was very patient and helpful and accepted it was a problem and is putting it forward to the Highways Dept. and gave the issue a reference Number HGE013166 and location: Road name: SALFORD CIRCUS Ward: GRAVELLY HILL. The email acknowledgement said I should be contacted within 5 - 10 days. (Probably shouldn't hold our fug-filled breaths until something concrete emerges...)
Will update again as and when.
Excellent citizenship mate, well done.
Post by: Sdwbvf on October 11, 2023, 05:33:32 PM
Even if Witton has longer platforms and there are football or event specials that only stop there from New Street and maybe another station the other way, that would sort it far more than it is now.
Witton already gets extra trains. They could make that up to 8 coaches if they had longer wider platforms. They can't increase the Wallsall trains for the reasons already stated. On matchdays the Rugeley trains are diverted so thatvthey serve Villa Park too. An empty 8 coach train arriving at Witton would remove about 1200 people crush loaded (possibly more). They usually run it round twice which is 2400.
Last time I was anywhere near Manchester on a match day (on a train from London which was very crowded with Manyoo fans from their traditional catchment area!), they were shuttling a three coach train to and from Old Trafford, similar to what happens at Villa Park.
Newcastle has the metro, the London teams have the tube, apart from Palace, which gets extra trains. Most of the other teams are nowhere near stations.
Post by: astonvilla82 on October 11, 2023, 05:39:20 PM
Post by: IFWaters on October 11, 2023, 07:21:31 PM
Well if you bothered to look at their website they're 72 seats each. 6 of them at 2 X 2 mile trips to the city is 864 an hour. Run that lot in 5 other directions and that's 4,320 people removed to other transport hubs or car parks very efficiently. And it would cost peanuts and could be sorted very quickly. But never mind we'll all wait for the trains to get sorted. Just don't hold your breath.Depends how many coaches you put on. Aziz coaches in Sparkbrook have 6 coaches available immediately at very reasonable prices. It's all very well talking about fancy metro systems and the like but in case you hadn't noticed the city's bankrupt. I really doubt the wisdom of tying Villa Park expansion to major public transport improvements and 'modal shift' because that takes massive public expenditure and years. It will not happen before the euros and I worry Birmingham will lose out in hosting Euro 2028 without it let alone 10k extra Villa fans being able to get to games.Excellent, that's 240 people sorted. What about the other 49,760?
I guess if some wait for the second trip (an hour or so after the final whistle I'd guess?) there's another 240 sorted.
Post by: N'ZMAV on October 11, 2023, 07:41:06 PM
right?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 11, 2023, 08:56:04 PM
What a weirdly random post.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 11, 2023, 08:57:46 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 11, 2023, 09:12:33 PM
I can’t believe Nas and Wes haven’t been on the blower to Aziz Coaches of Sparkbrook at some point.
I would hope the owners know that they relocated to Plymouth last year.
Post by: AV82EC on October 11, 2023, 09:21:04 PM
I can’t believe Nas and Wes haven’t been on the blower to Aziz Coaches of Sparkbrook at some point.
I would hope the owners know that they relocated to Plymouth last year.
I may be being cynical but I’m spotting a flaw in the Aziz coaches plan.
Post by: Des Little on October 11, 2023, 09:26:19 PM
Post by: Ads on October 11, 2023, 09:29:24 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on October 11, 2023, 09:30:56 PM
Apparently the African Car Reverser can accommodate 3 peopleshot gun
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 11, 2023, 09:36:06 PM
Apparently the African Car Reverser can accommodate 3 people
Unfortunately we've committed to using Aziz Coaches, so there's no going back.
Post by: Somniloquism on October 11, 2023, 09:38:17 PM
Post by: Risso on October 11, 2023, 09:40:27 PM
"The Honest about this company is that the new generation and there father Naz and zahoor have robbed there mother and younger Brother. After the death of Abdul Aziz he gave all the business to his wife and younger son. the mother/granmother got robbed by her older son zahoor and Naz, who took the shares of there mother by fake sign. the younger son munir gave his 75% share free to his nephews for free as they where causing alot of issues. as they say what goes around will come back around . Already Vosa doing there investigation on this company for doing fraud on driving cards. they already been raided by armed police few months ago for something very serious. KEEP CALM LET KARMA FINISH IT."
Post by: The Man With A Stick on October 11, 2023, 09:49:36 PM
Aziz Air have just bought a fuckload of Chinooks and would be well up for it.
Post by: LeeB on October 11, 2023, 09:57:26 PM
Some interesting comments on the Aziz Coaches Facebook page:
"The Honest about this company is that the new generation and there father Naz and zahoor have robbed there mother and younger Brother. After the death of Abdul Aziz he gave all the business to his wife and younger son. the mother/granmother got robbed by her older son zahoor and Naz, who took the shares of there mother by fake sign. the younger son munir gave his 75% share free to his nephews for free as they where causing alot of issues. as they say what goes around will come back around . Already Vosa doing there investigation on this company for doing fraud on driving cards. they already been raided by armed police few months ago for something very serious. KEEP CALM LET KARMA FINISH IT."
Was this the Plymouth police raiding, I've lost track now?
Post by: AV82EC on October 11, 2023, 10:01:53 PM
Never change H&V never change.
Post by: IFWaters on October 11, 2023, 10:03:39 PM
Post by: Des Little on October 11, 2023, 10:21:25 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 11, 2023, 10:32:02 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 11, 2023, 10:40:58 PM
I can’t believe Nas and Wes haven’t been on the blower to Aziz Coaches of Sparkbrook at some point.
I would hope the owners know that they relocated to Plymouth last year.
They’ve only gone there on loan though. Or am I getting mixed up with Azaz?
Post by: Risso on October 11, 2023, 10:51:29 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 11, 2023, 10:59:09 PM
*for clarity, it’s a 20 minute walk, not 50 years.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 11, 2023, 11:04:48 PM
Saw it coming, swatted it away for six.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 11, 2023, 11:08:04 PM
Excellent pre-emptive derailing of typical H&V piss taking there.
Saw it coming, swatted it away for six.
Haha, I did see it coming, and I knew an “I’ll set em up, you knock ‘em in” response to it would have had no credibility.
Post by: eamonn on October 11, 2023, 11:16:05 PM
I’m pretty sure I overheard Andy Street talking about fixing Witton Station. He said he would rather leave things Aziz. So you may be onto something IF.
"Sir?"
"What now Moloney?"
"You might wanna take a look at this..."
Post by: The Edge on October 12, 2023, 06:18:46 AM
I noticed the Foo Fighters are performing at Villa Park next summer. So when does redevelopment actually start?It's now official* the North Stand redevelopment will start immediately after the Foo Fighters concert.
* that's what it said on the birmingham live app.
Post by: Footy-Vill on October 12, 2023, 01:26:41 PM
And rightly so!
Post by: Risso on October 12, 2023, 01:28:18 PM
Post by: Drummond on October 12, 2023, 01:29:31 PM
Post by: LeeB on October 12, 2023, 01:34:54 PM
Post by: CT Villan on October 12, 2023, 01:48:41 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on October 12, 2023, 01:49:21 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 12, 2023, 02:22:41 PM
Seriously though, I think Heck should find another spot in the ground for super high-end hospitality, for the fans that are just better than us. Maybe call it the Royal View and the seats could be made to look like thrones.
Not for me, sounds too much like Royal Blue.
Post by: AV84 on October 12, 2023, 03:19:33 PM
Post by: saunders_heroes on October 12, 2023, 03:24:59 PM
Newsflash.
In other news, John Lennon has married Cynthia...
Post by: Villan For Life on October 12, 2023, 03:31:57 PM
Newsflash.
In other news, John Lennon has married Cynthia...
That surprises me, I’d heard that he preferred the Japanese look.
Post by: algy on October 12, 2023, 03:42:50 PM
Well have i got a bit piece of gossip for you ... all rumour mindNewsflash.
In other news, John Lennon has married Cynthia...
That surprises me, I’d heard that he preferred the Japanese look.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on October 12, 2023, 10:16:37 PM
Belfast is building an entirely new stadium for the Euros, so you'd think Birmingham could fix a train station.A stadium yet to secure either funding or building
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on October 12, 2023, 10:27:37 PM
Newsflash.
In other news, John Lennon has married Cynthia...
In February next year Mark Chapman is scheduled to have his 13th parole hearing.
Post by: dcdavecollett on October 17, 2023, 12:40:50 AM
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on October 17, 2023, 01:10:19 AM
Funny how you never hear about Christian terrorists, isn't it?
Have you heard something about how we're taking down a stand?
Post by: dcdavecollett on October 17, 2023, 01:29:23 AM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 17, 2023, 10:05:24 AM
Funny how you never hear about Christian terrorists, isn't it?
Have you heard something about how we're taking down a stand?
He didn't take too kindly to Purslow's plans for the new North Stand.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 17, 2023, 10:07:13 AM
(https://media.tenor.com/BJS5FjaWW3kAAAAC/young-ones-rik.gif)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 17, 2023, 10:08:26 AM
Funny how you never hear about Christian terrorists, isn't it?
Have you heard something about how we're taking down a stand?
He didn't take too kindly to Purslow's plans for the new North Stand.
Given when it was built, and given who was controlling the purse strings when it went up, i can not believe it isn't constructed almost entirely of Racc.
A team of, say, 50 people all farting at the same time should be enough to bring it down.
Post by: LeeB on October 17, 2023, 10:09:59 AM
Funny how you never hear about Christian terrorists, isn't it?
Have you heard something about how we're taking down a stand?
He didn't take too kindly to Purslow's plans for the new North Stand.
Given when it was built, and given who was controlling the purse strings when it went up, i can not believe it isn't constructed almost entirely of Racc.
A team of, say, 50 people all farting at the same time should be enough to bring it down.
I may have to excuse myself from Sunday on current form.
Post by: Simon Page on October 17, 2023, 10:20:28 AM
Anyway, I took a big risk a few minutes ago, given I've overdone the wine and dubious foods. Fully prepared for the upstairs waddle of shame, but I trusted to luck and was rewarded with a trump of such triumphant timbre it could start the national anthem. Reckon it could have had three sides of the ground tumbling too.
Post by: LeeB on October 17, 2023, 10:24:05 AM
Post by: AV84 on October 17, 2023, 10:28:48 AM
Belfast is building an entirely new stadium for the Euros, so you'd think Birmingham could fix a train station.A stadium yet to secure either funding or building
It's being held up now by the DUP who aren't even in charge of a devolved government that hasn't sat for months because they're sulking about losing the last election. Funding is coming from Dublin and London too though, so it might still get moving.
Post by: Simon Page on October 17, 2023, 10:43:07 AM
I'm not sure what set it off but since Friday it's been so forceful I've had genuine concern for structural failure of anything in it's path, be it fabrics or ceramics.
Enjoy your moment in the (hazy) sun. Currently I'm proudly achieve a sustain that would put the most proficient didgeridooist to shame. I know the Pasquales will return eventually, but until then...
Post by: LeeB on October 17, 2023, 10:45:52 AM
Post by: Footy-Vill on October 17, 2023, 12:07:36 PM
Is their scope for electric shuttle buses.
And certainly the witton train place needs positively upgrading for services
Post by: spartacuss on October 19, 2023, 04:55:21 PM
Traffic-wise, on our route, one simple thing made a huge, dramatic and negative difference a few years back. For those of us driving away using Aston Hall Road/Lichfield Road towards the M.6 at Salford Circus (Spaghetti Junction), for years there would be a slow but steady flow with only a minimal hold-up. Then they introduced lights at Salford Circus. The effect was immediate: quite literally the next match following their introduction the traffic flow turned into a permanent jam inching along and it's been like that every match since.
There is no need for lights at this huge, crucial roundabout when 95% of the traffic following a match is exiting away to the M.6 (North & South) or Erdington, Sutton, Lichfield with a relative dribble of (non-match) traffic using the other roads. I am convinced that if the lights were suspended for one or one and half hours after a match the steady flow of traffic would be resumed.
Anyone know whose ear has to be bent, to get traffic management (West Midlands/Birmingham Council?) to sort out this mess instead of thousands of stationary cars chugging out fumes while the occupants are, understandably, 'fuming' too?
Update. Managed to get through to someone in Birmingham City Council (tortuous process - wouldn't recommend it - probably made worse by the presence of the Govistas!). She was very patient and helpful and accepted it was a problem and is putting it forward to the Highways Dept. and gave the issue a reference Number HGE013166 and location: Road name: SALFORD CIRCUS Ward: GRAVELLY HILL. The email acknowledgement said I should be contacted within 5 - 10 days. (Probably shouldn't hold our fug-filled breaths until something concrete emerges...)
Will update again as and when.
[/quote]
Had a reply today (19/10/23) from the Principal Engineer whose responsibility is the Salford Circus/Spaghetti Junction roundabout, to the effect that switching off the traffic signals at peak times will be considered by council engineers and traffic management. He raised various points which I responded to in my reply below:
"I do acknowledge that there may be challenges to altering these particular lights. When I spoke to your (very helpful and patient) colleague last week, I spoke about the benefits that a temporary suspension of the lights for a period of time following matches would bring to both Birmingham residents and visitors. Before the lights were installed, there were delays along the Lichfield and Aston Hall Roads, but there was always a sense that the traffic - crawling though it may be - would be steadily dispersed at Salford Circus. Since the installation and operation of the lights, gridlock has been the dominant experience.
You refer to traffic at peak times, but we tend to forget that all of the matches do not finish at the peak times in the working week (4 - 7 p.m.). The matches' conclusions on Saturdays and Sundays or after 9.30 during the week do not compete with the sheer amount of working-week peak-time traffic. From impressions from other drivers caught in the horrendous jams whose opinions I have sought, the overwhelming opinion seems to be that non-match traffic is a relative trickle (5%?) and given a disproportionate excessive amount of traffic light 'Go' time at the roundabout. Furthermore, it seems that locals are aware of match traffic dispersal and are savvy enough to avoid the area if at all possible.
I take your point about the possible need for manual control and requisite traffic engineers to be present and possible costs involved. I would point out, though, that at present (even with the European fixtures) that the matches and consequent traffic averages out at approximately one match every 10 days. The time frame for control would need to be no more than 2 hours after the match. If we consider the amount of stress and aggravation (and, unfortunately, aggressive behaviour...) that these gridlocked jams create and the pall of pollution produced, at a time when every responsible person and institution is focused on net-zero actions, surely the benefits greatly outweigh the nominal operational costs?
Furthermore, it is not a 'good look' for Birmingham and its praiseworthy desire to promote itself to visitors for forthcoming sports, tournaments and other cultural attractions i.e. not making a relatively simple 'fix' to a solvable problem could cast Birmingham in a poor, negative light? If your department does institute remedial action, it would not go unappreciated: the kudos generated towards Birmingham City Council and Engineering North specifically would be appreciated and reinforced by thousands of fans at a time when we are aware of the ridiculous government intervention in the city's operation! Thank you."
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 19, 2023, 05:24:51 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on October 19, 2023, 09:16:03 PM
Post by: Drummond on October 19, 2023, 11:25:51 PM
Post by: dcdavecollett on October 20, 2023, 01:33:39 AM
Are you Spartacus?
Post by: spartacuss on October 20, 2023, 11:19:10 AM
Well done.
Are you Spartacus?
I am spartacuss ('cuss someone else took my previous H&V name!).
All other claimants to the name are fakers...
Post by: danno on October 20, 2023, 11:21:43 AM
Well done.
Are you Spartacus?
I am spartacuss ('cuss someone else took my previous H&V name!).
All other claimants to the name are fakers...
I thought the name meant you were a Kirk Douglas lookalike but just really foul mouthed.
Post by: spartacuss on October 20, 2023, 11:24:58 AM
Well done.
Are you Spartacus?
I am spartacuss ('cuss someone else took my previous H&V name!).
All other claimants to the name are fakers...
I thought the name meant you were a Kirk Douglas lookalike but just really foul mouthed.
Touché!
Post by: Ads on October 20, 2023, 05:26:54 PM
Post by: rjp on October 20, 2023, 05:48:02 PM
Quote
As a dedicated supporter of the club, we want to keep you informed about some improvements that are currently underway in the Holte End middle concourse area. Your matchday experience is of paramount importance to us, and we're committed to enhancing this over the course of the season and beyond.
Here are some key updates on the ongoing works:
-Although the all of works will not be fully complete by this Sunday's fixture vs West Ham United, you can still expect to see noticeable improvements. Newly painted concourses will greet you, providing a fresh and vibrant atmosphere ahead of kick off.
-From the match vs Luton Town next Sunday 29th October, various upgraded facilities will be fully operational. This includes improved male and female toilets, a completely redecorated extension to the concourse space, and more television screens to keep you updated on all the afternoon's action.
During the West Ham fixture, while the works are ongoing, all existing facilities will still be accessible to minimise any inconvenience. Your matchday experience remains one of our top priorities, and we apologise for any minor disruptions during this transition period.
Post by: Gareth on October 20, 2023, 06:02:14 PM
They've emailed saying the middle concourse in the Holte has been updated. Won't be finished by Sunday but will be by Luton.
The Witton Upper will have a new freshener block in a urinal sometime in 2026 :-) a new dawn….
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on October 20, 2023, 06:09:07 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 20, 2023, 06:58:34 PM
Male AND female!
Rejoice! Rejoice!
Post by: Risso on October 20, 2023, 07:40:48 PM
"Newly painted concourses will greet you, providing a fresh and vibrant atmosphere ahead of kick off."
I haven't seen a level of being spoilt like that since the Ferrero Rocher ambassador's party.
Post by: Nev on October 20, 2023, 08:02:20 PM
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on October 20, 2023, 08:21:09 PM
Post by: The Man With A Stick on October 20, 2023, 08:28:32 PM
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on October 20, 2023, 09:08:22 PM
Post by: Zouch Villa on October 20, 2023, 09:23:29 PM
Post by: AV82EC on October 20, 2023, 10:13:43 PM
They had one of those fast pour machines in the Upper Trinity at the Zrinjski game, not sure if they've been installed anywhere else in the ground but it's progress.
That’s been there for over a season.
Post by: Drummond on October 20, 2023, 10:55:01 PM
Will there be soft toilet paper ?
No, you'll have Izal and be happy.
Post by: Meanwood Villa on October 20, 2023, 10:58:49 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on October 21, 2023, 12:26:18 PM
Will there be soft toilet paper ?I've never contemplated finding out down there.
Post by: Clampy on October 21, 2023, 12:30:58 PM
Post by: The Man With A Stick on October 22, 2023, 11:07:27 AM
They had one of those fast pour machines in the Upper Trinity at the Zrinjski game, not sure if they've been installed anywhere else in the ground but it's progress.
That’s been there for over a season.
Really?! Don't normally sit down that end so had never spotted it before.
Post by: AV82EC on October 22, 2023, 02:08:13 PM
They had one of those fast pour machines in the Upper Trinity at the Zrinjski game, not sure if they've been installed anywhere else in the ground but it's progress.
That’s been there for over a season.
Really?! Don't normally sit down that end so had never spotted it before.
A pleasant surprise for those of us in A1 and A2 and quite at odds with the frankly appalling facilities in the Upper Trinity for the number of people who occupy that stand.
Post by: Risso on October 22, 2023, 04:26:16 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on October 22, 2023, 07:45:14 PM
Lovely to see Dean Smith at Villa Park, which is due to be redeveloped in the coming years.
Is it? Thanks mate. Your research is forensic.
Post by: Chris Harte on October 22, 2023, 08:25:27 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on October 23, 2023, 11:35:40 AM
They also seem to have started some work on the downstairs toilet (left side) which needs to be completely reconfigured.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on October 23, 2023, 11:53:43 AM
Post by: Risso on October 23, 2023, 11:54:38 AM
Post by: AV82EC on October 23, 2023, 11:55:06 AM
Yesterday was the first time I used the outdoor facilities by the Trinity. It's not bad but hugely overpriced for what it is. The covers band belted out predictable indie numbers to gentle applause from a decent crowd using the facility. It's clearly working commercially to some extent. Had it been raining it would have been a different matter I'm sure.
It’s ok but would be far better on the Holte Car Park.
Post by: chrisw1 on October 23, 2023, 11:58:33 AM
How was the new paint?I don't think there was any as far as I could see.
Post by: PeterWithe on October 23, 2023, 12:01:33 PM
Post by: eamonn on October 23, 2023, 12:12:40 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on October 23, 2023, 12:13:37 PM
There was new paint on the gangway floors in the Trinity, two gentlemen got a very close look at it as they tripped down the steps leaving and knocked each other over,
Sounds like a Blues fight in Middlesbrough.
Post by: Nev on October 23, 2023, 12:27:22 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on October 23, 2023, 12:28:42 PM
The email promised "more TV's" but they've removed the one by the old Purity Bar. The ducting has been painted though so we looked at that instead.
You don’t want any more of me I can assure you.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on October 23, 2023, 12:29:07 PM
The email promised "more TV's" but they've removed the one by the old Purity Bar. The ducting has been painted though so we looked at that instead.
Old fashioned football viewing
Post by: artvandelay on October 30, 2023, 10:14:59 AM
Post by: Nev on October 30, 2023, 10:42:10 AM
The main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
The replacement is half the size which chimes in with how things are going there lately. It didn't help that the ones above flooded and were closed at the final whistle, I was struggling by the time I got to the Villa Tavern.
Post by: rjp on October 30, 2023, 10:46:33 AM
The main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
It was just a gents, now there's a ladies as well. I took a photo for some reason.
(https://i.ibb.co/J2xWBLn/20231029-135401r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2xWBLn)
Post by: Gareth on October 30, 2023, 11:24:27 AM
The main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
It’ll be hospitality toilets…for just £15 a game you can have unlimited access to the toilets….& a club legend will pop in to give their views on the game whilst you are sat on the throne
Post by: pauliewalnuts on October 30, 2023, 11:30:14 AM
Post by: Drummond on October 30, 2023, 11:42:55 AM
The main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
It was just a gents, now there's a ladies as well. I took a photo for some reason.
(https://i.ibb.co/J2xWBLn/20231029-135401r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2xWBLn)
Bloody hell, fancy having to crouch and pee against a barrier with a load of blokes walking past.
Post by: algy on October 30, 2023, 11:48:14 AM
;DThe main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
It’ll be hospitality toilets…for just £15 a game you can have unlimited access to the toilets….& a club legend will pop in to give their views on the game whilst you are sat on the throne
Post by: rjp on October 30, 2023, 12:04:34 PM
The main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
It was just a gents, now there's a ladies as well. I took a photo for some reason.
(https://i.ibb.co/J2xWBLn/20231029-135401r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2xWBLn)
Bloody hell, fancy having to crouch and pee against a barrier with a load of blokes walking past.
;D To prevent any confusion, the bloke on the left is obscuring the door to the ladies. I guess we'll have to see what they do with the vacant space. If they wanted to put a beer machine there then it's conveniently close to the toilets so a simple filtration system should do the job.
Post by: eamonn on October 30, 2023, 03:35:38 PM
Post by: DeKuip on October 30, 2023, 03:48:18 PM
… and a bloke taking photos! Great photo though to highlight how poor the women’s toilet facilities are at football grounds. Pity there wasn’t a puddle underneath the sign.The main toilets on the K6/7 side of the Upper Holte have been ripped out and replaced with some in a place that I didn't know existed to their left. No sign of what will be built in the current building site, my guess/hope would be one of the Amazon style stores they have in the lower
It was just a gents, now there's a ladies as well. I took a photo for some reason.
(https://i.ibb.co/J2xWBLn/20231029-135401r.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2xWBLn)
Bloody hell, fancy having to crouch and pee against a barrier with a load of blokes walking past.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 06, 2023, 07:11:41 PM
How long has that been there?
Post by: exigo on November 15, 2023, 10:37:28 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/kJgSnvK/VP.png) (https://ibb.co/kJgSnvK)
Post by: Mellin on November 15, 2023, 11:01:49 PM
Post by: Pat McMahon on November 16, 2023, 12:06:08 AM
Looking at the seat selector this evening, I noticed for the first time that a lot of the rows at the back of the Holte are now marked as "this is a future rail seat".
How long has that been there?
Paulie, I think I saw it for the Everton game in August. Left side upper Holte was my home since the late 70s and I tried to book it for the above game. There were notices saying future rail seat and also when clicking on available seats there was a lovely message saying “fuck off, these are reserved for Terrace View members, please look elsewhere.” I think it is impossible to book upper Holte seats for league games.
Or I’m shit at using the Villa tickets site…..
Post by: Nev on November 16, 2023, 07:50:18 AM
Post by: Scratchins on November 16, 2023, 08:05:18 AM
*Please note, our home fixtures against Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Wolverhampton Wanderers will not go on general sale and will only be available to fans who have attended one or more home league games since the 2016/17 season
Post by: Nev on November 16, 2023, 08:21:03 AM
From the OS
*Please note, our home fixtures against Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Wolverhampton Wanderers will not go on general sale and will only be available to fans who have attended one or more home league games since the 2016/17 season
The cynic in me says that that will go out of the window in order to sell TV and LG spaces.
Post by: Bad English on November 16, 2023, 11:20:14 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 16, 2023, 05:04:41 PM
From the OS
*Please note, our home fixtures against Manchester United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Wolverhampton Wanderers will not go on general sale and will only be available to fans who have attended one or more home league games since the 2016/17 season
The cynic in me says that that will go out of the window in order to sell TV and LG spaces.
There’s a Polish guy at work who wants to take his 11 year-old son to the Legia game. He’s not a Legia fan - he’s been here a few years and his son is a Villa fan. He was knocked back at every turn on the club website as they have no booking history. Another guy at work is a season ticket holder and thought he could help him but he’s only allowed to buy one extra ticket. As a last resort he clicked on ‘Premium Experience’.
Website response? “Come into my parlour” said the spider to the fly.
£130 for two (adult + child) tickets. I got all three games for me and two of my kids for about that (£127 I think).
Post by: rjp on November 16, 2023, 05:41:46 PM
Post by: Des Little on November 16, 2023, 10:05:10 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on November 16, 2023, 10:59:13 PM
I'm in K7 and we got emails telling us that is was going to be rail seating pre-season. Nothing since. I'm pretty sure it was all a ploy to try and make room for the TV. There's a set of 3 seats across from us that had 2 blokes in last game. One was so hammered after half time they didn't see very much of the 2nd half.They said because I would have to move to make room for the disabled seating, they gave me a choice of a rail seat in the upper Holte, luckily I didn't have to move
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 16, 2023, 11:52:35 PM
The cynic in me is expecting some aggro at the Legia game. By all accounts they’re bringing way more over than we’ll allow in the away end, so TV and LG may be their only way in, and they’re not known for their subtlety…
The sales criteria for those are the same as everywhere else in the ground, though.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 17, 2023, 12:31:32 AM
The cynic in me is expecting some aggro at the Legia game. By all accounts they’re bringing way more over than we’ll allow in the away end, so TV and LG may be their only way in, and they’re not known for their subtlety…
The sales criteria for those are the same as everywhere else in the ground, though.
See my post above paulie re my mate at work.
Normal seats - no booking history, no ticket.
Premium experience - no booking history, no problem.
And whether one thinks this is relevant or not, that’s for a father and son with Polish names.
Post by: Pat McMahon on November 17, 2023, 12:44:45 AM
The cynic in me is expecting some aggro at the Legia game. By all accounts they’re bringing way more over than we’ll allow in the away end, so TV and LG may be their only way in, and they’re not known for their subtlety…
The sales criteria for those are the same as everywhere else in the ground, though.
See my post above paulie re my mate at work.
Normal seats - no booking history, no ticket.
Premium experience - no booking history, no problem.
And whether one thinks this is relevant or not, that’s for a father and son with Polish names.
A mate in Poland got me tickets for Legia away. He tried and failed to get tickets for my mate who came out and ended up getting him a hospitality ticket for about €180. I think every club I know of is seeing this phenomenon where money trumps all normal rules.
Like Paulie, I think Legia will see this game as a chance to make a statement.
Post by: Ads on November 17, 2023, 07:37:13 AM
If they act up, something tells me they'll come unstuck at the expense of WMP...
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 17, 2023, 09:18:36 AM
The cynic in me is expecting some aggro at the Legia game. By all accounts they’re bringing way more over than we’ll allow in the away end, so TV and LG may be their only way in, and they’re not known for their subtlety…
The sales criteria for those are the same as everywhere else in the ground, though.
See my post above paulie re my mate at work.
Normal seats - no booking history, no ticket.
Premium experience - no booking history, no problem.
And whether one thinks this is relevant or not, that’s for a father and son with Polish names.
Ah apologies, didn't spot that inference, good point. That's surely asking for trouble.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on November 17, 2023, 09:56:40 AM
The cynic in me is expecting some aggro at the Legia game. By all accounts they’re bringing way more over than we’ll allow in the away end, so TV and LG may be their only way in, and they’re not known for their subtlety…
The sales criteria for those are the same as everywhere else in the ground, though.
See my post above paulie re my mate at work.
Normal seats - no booking history, no ticket.
Premium experience - no booking history, no problem.
And whether one thinks this is relevant or not, that’s for a father and son with Polish names.
Ah apologies, didn't spot that inference, good point. That's surely asking for trouble.
They should call it Vintage Terrace View....All the luxury and trimmings with added violence just like in the old days.
Post by: ez on November 17, 2023, 01:34:50 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 17, 2023, 01:51:44 PM
Post by: London Villan on November 17, 2023, 01:59:44 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on November 17, 2023, 02:03:23 PM
Post by: Ads on November 17, 2023, 02:03:38 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on November 17, 2023, 02:08:14 PM
Post by: London Villan on November 17, 2023, 02:12:44 PM
It was also built to accommodate the club's offices (which when they were built at the centre of the fraud investigation) instead of using the Upper Grounds buildings, which had fallen into disrepair by the 70s.
Post by: ez on November 17, 2023, 02:24:36 PM
Depends if EZ means the original North Stand terrace rather than Witton End. I think they rebuilt the terrace when doing the North, but it is the original North Stand terrace with seats bolted on.Yes that's what I mean.
Post by: nick harper on November 17, 2023, 03:12:13 PM
It looks dated now but when it was built the North was state of the art and became the template for many other stands around the country, especially what's called the goalpost design.
Yes it was a time when most stands, even covered terraces, had posts obscuring the view so it felt a big step forward at the time. I think Norwich have the same stand behind one goal.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 17, 2023, 05:39:03 PM
The cynic in me is expecting some aggro at the Legia game. By all accounts they’re bringing way more over than we’ll allow in the away end, so TV and LG may be their only way in, and they’re not known for their subtlety…
The sales criteria for those are the same as everywhere else in the ground, though.
See my post above paulie re my mate at work.
Normal seats - no booking history, no ticket.
Premium experience - no booking history, no problem.
And whether one thinks this is relevant or not, that’s for a father and son with Polish names.
Ah apologies, didn't spot that inference, good point. That's surely asking for trouble.
No worries. And yes, agreed. It also seems rather grubby.
Post by: ez on November 17, 2023, 06:57:27 PM
It looks dated now but when it was built the North was state of the art and became the template for many other stands around the country, especially what's called the goalpost design.
Yes it was a time when most stands, even covered terraces, had posts obscuring the view so it felt a big step forward at the time. I think Norwich have the same stand behind one goal.
I think having AV in a different colour to the rest of the seats was something new at the time which other clubs soon copied.
Post by: The Edge on November 17, 2023, 07:55:29 PM
None of the terrace is original. However, there was a section of wall between the Trinity and the North Stand that was the original brickwork of the original Trinity and maybe even the Victorian Upper Grounds - it still existed a few years ago when we did some work there and nothing has changed in that part of the ground since.The lower North is the original Witton End terracing. They re-profiled it when the North Stand was built. Not sure when the old Witton End terrace was built but the lower North is the oldest and last part of our connection with the old stadium. It's only a mound of earth really with concrete steps on but it really is the last link with the "good old days"
Post by: VILLA MOLE on November 17, 2023, 08:02:40 PM
Post by: Des Little on November 17, 2023, 08:43:13 PM
Post by: Ads on November 18, 2023, 08:20:08 AM
Build and build as big as possible. Click on seat viewer now for any game in T5 and tell me that's not the best football stadium in England. No, the world. It's glorious. Soon us in K3 etc will share the absolute privilege of the North standers.
Post by: Risso on November 18, 2023, 08:33:47 AM
Post by: Chris Smith on November 18, 2023, 08:37:16 AM
It's not the best football stadium in England.
Which is then?
Post by: Risso on November 18, 2023, 08:42:53 AM
It's not the best football stadium in England.
Which is then?
Well it depends on what you're measuring it on. Two of the stands are crap and look really dated (ie the North Stand and Witton). Facilities are mostly appalling in every stand. Getting away from VP after a match is atrocious.
In terms of most things, the Spurs ground is miles better, and so are Arsenal and Newcastle.
Post by: luke95 on November 18, 2023, 08:50:59 AM
All about opinions .It's not the best football stadium in England.
Which is then?
Well it depends on what you're measuring it on. Two of the stands are crap and look really dated (ie the North Stand and Witton). Facilities are mostly appalling in every stand. Getting away from VP after a match is atrocious.
In terms of most things, the Spurs ground is miles better, and so are Arsenal and Newcastle.
I think we have the best looking football stadium icertainly n Britain if not the world.
Empty, full, the colour inside. It's majestic & magnificent!
Wouldn't swap it for anywhere.
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on November 18, 2023, 08:55:08 AM
Of the modern stadium, Tottenham is very good, but nowhere near as aesthetically pleasing as Villa Park.
Arsenal just feels like a bigger version of Reading's ground, as boring bowl.
Post by: Ads on November 18, 2023, 09:17:28 AM
It's not the best football stadium in England.
Which is then?
Well it depends on what you're measuring it on. Two of the stands are crap and look really dated (ie the North Stand and Witton). Facilities are mostly appalling in every stand. Getting away from VP after a match is atrocious.
In terms of most things, the Spurs ground is miles better, and so are Arsenal and Newcastle.
None of them look anywhere near as good as Villa Park. Arsenal is an awful bowl and looks smaller than 60,000. Spurs kop is good I'll grant you that. It is actually a pretty good ground, with how steep it is too. I like it a lot to be fair. St James' Park looks ridiculous though. It's 2 grounds bolted together.
The first two do have better facilities. Click T5 seat viewer and tell me you don't get a fizz in your Calvin's. She's so pretty. Blow the North up and we get that from K3 too. Joy of joys.
Post by: Rico on November 18, 2023, 09:54:42 AM
It's not the best football stadium in England.
Burn him! Burn the witch 🧹
Post by: Gareth on November 18, 2023, 09:59:21 AM
It's not the best football stadium in England.
Which is then?
Well it depends on what you're measuring it on. Two of the stands are crap and look really dated (ie the North Stand and Witton). Facilities are mostly appalling in every stand. Getting away from VP after a match is atrocious.
In terms of most things, the Spurs ground is miles better, and so are Arsenal and Newcastle.
I agree, Holte is the only beautiful stand but the idiots are doing their best to dilute that with the horrible gash in the middle and taking away access to the beautiful facade on match day.
North looks dire and has for decades, Witton is a great view but everything else about the stand is disgusting & Trinity just looks like they’ve cut out a section of any other new ground and plonked it there.
It’s beautiful because it’s ours but the day Ellis knocked down the historic stand and replaced it with a bland template stand the ground lost a lot of it mystique and is why I’ve never been vehemently against a new ground elsewhere.
Post by: itbrvilla on November 18, 2023, 10:15:12 AM
I might be wron,g but have read elsewhere that forest and their tree logo was the first thing written/drawn using seats. Happy to be corrected.It looks dated now but when it was built the North was state of the art and became the template for many other stands around the country, especially what's called the goalpost design.
Yes it was a time when most stands, even covered terraces, had posts obscuring the view so it felt a big step forward at the time. I think Norwich have the same stand behind one goal.
I think having AV in a different colour to the rest of the seats was something new at the time which other clubs soon copied.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 18, 2023, 10:37:27 AM
In the same way that Goodison was seen as one of the great old stadiums, but is also (way, way more) out of date in lots of ways.
That's not enough, though.
The way the game is today, it's not right that people paying 50 or 60 quid for a ticket have to deal with horrible conditions in the north and witton stands, which are truly abysmal. That needs to be sorted, it is well overdue. One of those stands hasn't really been improved in over a quarter of a century, and the other in 45 years. It is a particularly shit experience for away fans.
I remember signing on in a rough part of London 30 years ago, the dole office was grim undecorated concrete that looked like it hadn't been cleaned in years, rusting shutters and security grilles everywhere, not enough space, nowhere to sit down, the whole ethos was 'get in, do what you need to do, then fuck off out of it'. That's what the Witton reminds me of.
I sometimes worry that this is one example of how our reputation - amongst ourselves in particular - is starting to look more and more outdated.
We bang on about winning the European Cup, despite it being 40 years ago. 40 years! We tell ourselves we're a massive club, despite not having won anything for 27 years, and even that (and the one before) were the trophy everyone cares less about. We've won the FA Cup seven times, but not once in the last 66 years. We just had a spell of a decade not finishing in the top half of the premier league, and not even in it for three years.
We've got plenty to be proud of, we just need to start with a bit less talking the talk and more walking the walk.
Post by: dave.woodhall on November 18, 2023, 10:39:32 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 18, 2023, 10:46:47 AM
It’s beautiful because it’s ours but the day Ellis knocked down the historic stand and replaced it with a bland template stand the ground lost a lot of it mystique and is why I’ve never been vehemently against a new ground elsewhere.
Might be a bit controversial here, but despite the outside of the Trinity looking bland and the fact that nothing new is ever going to look like the old stand, it is easily one of the best parts of the ground - it is fucking massive, three tiered and imposing, the views are great, and - even if it's impossible to get a drink there etc etc - the concourses are pretty spacious,
If you stood on the centre circle and looked at it, you'd think fuck, this is the home of a big club.
Try doing that to two of the other stands.
Post by: dave.woodhall on November 18, 2023, 11:22:15 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 18, 2023, 11:26:14 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on November 18, 2023, 11:28:58 AM
Also, surprised Ellis didn't cheap out and go for a two tiered stand like the one opposite.
Wasn't that the one where the council said sort it out and stop being so cheap?
Post by: Ads on November 18, 2023, 12:39:07 PM
It’s beautiful because it’s ours but the day Ellis knocked down the historic stand and replaced it with a bland template stand the ground lost a lot of it mystique and is why I’ve never been vehemently against a new ground elsewhere.
Might be a bit controversial here, but despite the outside of the Trinity looking bland and the fact that nothing new is ever going to look like the old stand, it is easily one of the best parts of the ground - it is fucking massive, three tiered and imposing, the views are great, and - even if it's impossible to get a drink there etc etc - the concourses are pretty spacious,
If you stood on the centre circle and looked at it, you'd think fuck, this is the home of a big club.
Try doing that to two of the other stands.
I agree completely. The Old Trinity was a pokey relic, impressive I'm sure at some point, but it was so small and inadequate next to the Holte. The new North cannot come quick enough.
I guess I'm coming from this angle from my seat, which as much as we can complain about facilities (and they should improve) the majority of the time I'm sat in my seat. That carbuncle I've sat opposite for years coming down is great. The most atmospheric and "proper" ground going will become as you say, more imposing, more atmospheric.
Brighton has great facilities. It's still wank compared to B6.
Post by: Villan82 on November 18, 2023, 01:08:09 PM
Post by: Nev on November 18, 2023, 01:18:57 PM
It being a quiet Saturday I opted for the motorway which affords that neck twisting vista of our ground and beyond, our City, shrouded in mist. Through Spaghetti and onto the Lichfield Road, past the land where The Reservoir and King Edward stood, you can still smell the fags and Mild as you pass. Up Aston Hall Road, twisting and turning past the wonderfully named Electric Avenue, under the Expressway sited just after the "Social", and adjacent the restored Aston Tavern. Turning right at the lights a carpet of stunning autumn leaves covers the lower reaches of Aston Park, with Aston Hall keeping watch above while the Parish Church with its own golden skirt looms on your right before the Holte Pub forces you to choose your direction and gaze at the behemoth that is the bedrock of Villa Park.
I only went to pick up some discounted clobber but the journey was still as thrilling as the day I first went to Villa Park.
We should expect decent facilities, transport and catering and I'm as vocal as anyone about it but I never want to abandon the things that make our ground what it is, it's quirks, odd features, awkward design and most of all it's location and character.
Post by: Bad English on November 18, 2023, 01:24:30 PM
Thank for the marvellously-evocative Emile Zolaesque depiction of your route to B6. I can see it and smell it now.
Post by: Tony Daleys Shorts on November 18, 2023, 01:33:06 PM
Post by: frankmosswasmyuncle on November 18, 2023, 01:42:05 PM
Beautiful!
Post by: olaftab on November 18, 2023, 01:42:28 PM
Post by: Simon Page on November 18, 2023, 01:56:01 PM
Despite that, Villa Park will always be the greatest sports venue on earth, and the approach from either the Expressway or the park is unsurpassed.
Post by: AV82EC on November 18, 2023, 03:27:57 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on November 18, 2023, 03:35:15 PM
Post by: Billy Walker on November 18, 2023, 03:43:36 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 18, 2023, 04:30:53 PM
I'd love to see mosaics and stained glass (or some kind of modern version) on the new North Stand and the current Trinity. In an instant, it would tie the whole stadium together and make it truly "Villa" from every angle and approach.
Agree with this. When I've gone to Villa Park with fans of other teams they usually want a photo with the Holte and the mosaics in the background.
Post by: DB on November 18, 2023, 06:38:38 PM
Also, surprised Ellis didn't cheap out and go for a two tiered stand like the one opposite.
I dunno, I sit in the top tier and close up it looks shabby. Take the back of the stand when the roof meets, panels are all over the place, it’s not great walking up the stairs too. The owners could have a look at it and do it up.
Post by: Nev on November 18, 2023, 07:25:43 PM
Freinds of mine have been in Town today and saw lines of coaches parked up with the passengers enjoying the City Centre, and, I would imagine the German Market, yet ask a Brummie and many will wrinkle their nose.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 18, 2023, 07:32:52 PM
I don't know if it's a Brummie trait but the things everyone else loves about us, we generally dislike.
Freinds of mine have been in Town today and saw lines of coaches parked up with the passengers enjoying the City Centre, and, I would imagine the German Market, yet ask a Brummie and many will wrinkle their nose.
I love it.
I don't have much interest in ever going to it, but it's an example of something which has brought tons of money into the city centre, and which the city has become known for.
I remember a colleague from the peak district telling me how his parents loved their coach trip down to it every year.
Post by: Cliftonville Villlain on November 18, 2023, 07:38:03 PM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 18, 2023, 07:41:43 PM
largely inspired by this building on Upper Street in London. It looks great and attracts loads of attention.
https://www.dezeen.com/2019/04/01/amin-taha-groupwork-168-upper-street-london/
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 18, 2023, 08:10:14 PM
Despite the improvements Villa Park still drips history, and no matter how other grounds are aesthetically pleasing or with bigger capacities, that kind of history just can't be bought.
Exactly, a mate of mine is an Arsenal fan and every now and then he'll admit that it's just not the same since they left Highbury (even though he's from Dublin).
Post by: Nev on November 18, 2023, 09:03:55 PM
Despite the improvements Villa Park still drips history, and no matter how other grounds are aesthetically pleasing or with bigger capacities, that kind of history just can't be bought.
Exactly, a mate of mine is an Arsenal fan and every now and then he'll admit that it's just not the same since they left Highbury (even though he's from Dublin).
They're a prime example of a club that lost 50% of their identity after leaving their ground.
You can, of course point out the trophies particularly the 2015 one (shudders) but they will never be the Arsenal of old. But then I'm old so I'm out of step I suppose.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 19, 2023, 05:56:32 AM
Post by: Chris Harte on November 19, 2023, 10:49:45 AM
One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 19, 2023, 12:05:57 PM
One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Well, Liverpool solved their very similar problem in a very tawdry way, but it could be done ethically I think. My mate lives in Village Road and he’s hoping to get offered above market value for his house if the Villa decide to expand over that side.
I think there are about 80 homes that would need to be bought to facilitate it. Personally I think we’ll have to wait and see if there is still pent up demand for seats after capacity increases to 50k, then it would be the next logical step.
Post by: Meanwood Villa on November 19, 2023, 12:18:31 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on November 19, 2023, 12:21:44 PM
Just had a look on Google Earth and I'd say it'd be a lot more than eighty homes would need to be bought before they even got to Village Road, even assuming that some of that estate/rows of streets weren't purchased and left as they are. The DE/North corner is approx 170 metres from Village Road. Would they need to demolish properties that far back? I don't know.One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Well, Liverpool solved their very similar problem in a very tawdry way, but it could be done ethically I think. My mate lives in Village Road and he’s hoping to get offered above market value for his house if the Villa decide to expand over that side.
I think there are about 80 homes that would need to be bought to facilitate it. Personally I think we’ll have to wait and see if there is still pent up demand for seats after capacity increases to 50k, then it would be the next logical step.
Post by: Chris Harte on November 19, 2023, 12:51:31 PM
Personally I think we’ll have to wait and see if there is still pent up demand for seats after capacity increases to 50k, then it would be the next logical step.This would make a lot of sense. I suspect that around 50k might please everyone, unless we can achieve and maintain top 3 finishes for a long time.
A friend of mine recently went to Tottenham's stadium to watch the an NFL game. He said the ground was just on another level to VP in terms of the size of the concourses, the service, etc. What ever they do on the rebuilt stand(s) I just hope they've done their homework and go for a similar standard.
There was a suggestion that the Holte may also be improved in future in a "second phase". I would suggest excavating out below the LH concourse/Lower Grounds and essentially dropping the Lower Grounds into the space below, thus opening up the LH concourse. When I mentioned this previously it was suggested that the local water table may make this an unfeasible solution, but there maybe be other issues too that make it a non-starter or probihitively expensive.
Post by: spangley1812 on November 19, 2023, 12:57:58 PM
Apologies if this is asking the obvious but is the North Stand redevelopment definitely happening? Last I remember was it was still a bit up in the air?
Yes it is......Work is starting after the Foo Fighters Gig on 27/06/2024
Post by: Meanwood Villa on November 19, 2023, 01:32:24 PM
Apologies if this is asking the obvious but is the North Stand redevelopment definitely happening? Last I remember was it was still a bit up in the air?
Yes it is......Work is starting after the Foo Fighters Gig on 27/06/2024
Cheers
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on November 19, 2023, 02:23:40 PM
Post by: Clampy on November 19, 2023, 02:30:22 PM
Can't we just start work before that and not have a gig for The Wings of the 90s?
That's a bit of a weird and nonsense comparison, blimey.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 19, 2023, 02:31:19 PM
Post by: London Villan on November 19, 2023, 05:33:19 PM
Post by: eamonn on November 19, 2023, 05:49:50 PM
One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Hopefully the sun has moved on over the years.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 19, 2023, 06:34:38 PM
I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Hopefully the sun has moved on over the years.
Yeah, for starters they don't have Page 3 girls any more.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 19, 2023, 07:18:42 PM
Can't we just start work before that and not have a gig for The Wings of the 90s?
That's a bit of a weird and nonsense comparison, blimey.
It's not really totally nonsense.
I guess it's the implication that Wings = later incarnation of Paul McCartney from a formerly great group, Foo Fighters = later incarnation of Dave Grohl from a formerly great group, and neither were as good as the original.
Although anyone who thinks Wings were shit wants throwing in a canal.
Post by: ChicagoLion on November 19, 2023, 07:25:49 PM
Can I choose the canal?Can't we just start work before that and not have a gig for The Wings of the 90s?
That's a bit of a weird and nonsense comparison, blimey.
It's not really totally nonsense.
I guess it's the implication that Wings = later incarnation of Paul McCartney from a formerly great group, Foo Fighters = later incarnation of Dave Grohl from a formerly great group, and neither were as good as the original.
Although anyone who thinks Wings were shit wants throwing in a canal.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 19, 2023, 07:27:21 PM
Can I choose the canal?Can't we just start work before that and not have a gig for The Wings of the 90s?
That's a bit of a weird and nonsense comparison, blimey.
It's not really totally nonsense.
I guess it's the implication that Wings = later incarnation of Paul McCartney from a formerly great group, Foo Fighters = later incarnation of Dave Grohl from a formerly great group, and neither were as good as the original.
Although anyone who thinks Wings were shit wants throwing in a canal.
So long as it's deep and cold, yes.
Post by: ChicagoLion on November 19, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
Given the choice, listen to a Wings album, I am choosing the canal.Can I choose the canal?Can't we just start work before that and not have a gig for The Wings of the 90s?
That's a bit of a weird and nonsense comparison, blimey.
It's not really totally nonsense.
I guess it's the implication that Wings = later incarnation of Paul McCartney from a formerly great group, Foo Fighters = later incarnation of Dave Grohl from a formerly great group, and neither were as good as the original.
Although anyone who thinks Wings were shit wants throwing in a canal.
So long as it's deep and cold, yes.
Post by: olaftab on November 19, 2023, 11:44:57 PM
Quote from: Brazilian Villain link=topic=61921.msg4474024[/quote
They don’t? How sad as I thought it provided lot of young ladies with regular source of income and necessary exposure to break into the world of entertainment. I am annoyed now, never going to buy that paper again,
Yeah, for starters they don't have Page 3 girls any more.
Post by: olaftab on November 19, 2023, 11:48:11 PM
All of the affected houses in Witton Lane are no longer there. The next block is houses in Holte road, the side near to Witton Lane and there are no more that 50 or so.One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Post by: Dave P on November 20, 2023, 09:08:29 AM
Not sure the construction tender has been awarded yet.
It hasn't. Design work has started on 'The Warehouse' as approval was granted in September. But nothing on the stand.
Post by: Bully2345 on November 20, 2023, 09:10:56 AM
Can't we just start work before that and not have a gig for The Wings of the 90s?
The concerts they've been hosting are very lucrative
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 20, 2023, 09:20:13 AM
Not sure the construction tender has been awarded yet.
It hasn't. Design work has started on 'The Warehouse' as approval was granted in September. But nothing on the stand.
Design work has already been completed (and then done again) - that's what the architects did and what went through approval.
Post by: Concrete Tom on November 20, 2023, 11:03:03 AM
One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Well, Liverpool solved their very similar problem in a very tawdry way, but it could be done ethically I think. My mate lives in Village Road and he’s hoping to get offered above market value for his house if the Villa decide to expand over that side.
I think there are about 80 homes that would need to be bought to facilitate it. Personally I think we’ll have to wait and see if there is still pent up demand for seats after capacity increases to 50k, then it would be the next logical step.
That's three terraces away from the stadium at the moment. I don't think Village Road or even Yew Tree Road will even be affected.
Post by: Dave P on November 20, 2023, 11:18:24 AM
Not sure the construction tender has been awarded yet.
It hasn't. Design work has started on 'The Warehouse' as approval was granted in September. But nothing on the stand.
Design work has already been completed (and then done again) - that's what the architects did and what went through approval.
Correct, I was thinking more mechanical & electrical detailed design.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 20, 2023, 11:59:39 AM
One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Well, Liverpool solved their very similar problem in a very tawdry way, but it could be done ethically I think. My mate lives in Village Road and he’s hoping to get offered above market value for his house if the Villa decide to expand over that side.
I think there are about 80 homes that would need to be bought to facilitate it. Personally I think we’ll have to wait and see if there is still pent up demand for seats after capacity increases to 50k, then it would be the next logical step.
That's three terraces away from the stadium at the moment. I don't think Village Road or even Yew Tree Road will even be affected.
Okay, that’s good then if they’re thinking about that.
Post by: algy on November 20, 2023, 12:34:44 PM
I do wonder if an ethical way of doing it might be to offer the current residents above market value for their property, but with leaving on their terms ... so the property can only be transferred to Aston Villa, but when that happens is down to them - if they want to live the rest of their lives there, fair enough - they'll get an above-market-rate passed on to their kids.One of the great things about Villa Park is that we could build a 60k stadium there for about £300/400m with two new stands. Not many clubs have that opportunity.I'm not sure that there is an opportunity, although I'd be happy to be corrected.
Back in the nineties, when the old one-tier Witton Lane stand needed redeveloping, a huge part of the limitation as I remember was the neighbours at the back of the stand were complaining that they'd never see the sun from their homes again. Now I'm not sure whether this was just an excuse by the neighbours who felt they'd been rubbed-up the wrong way/not offered enough of a bung by the club's then chairman, but it seems to me that the same problem still exists.
If that's no longer the case then great.
Well, Liverpool solved their very similar problem in a very tawdry way, but it could be done ethically I think. My mate lives in Village Road and he’s hoping to get offered above market value for his house if the Villa decide to expand over that side.
I think there are about 80 homes that would need to be bought to facilitate it. Personally I think we’ll have to wait and see if there is still pent up demand for seats after capacity increases to 50k, then it would be the next logical step.
Not a particularly speedy way of resolving it, but it will get it sorted out and probably be no slower than how Liverpool have gone about it. Could even potentially offer a premium for moving out within a set timeframe (I dunno - 5 years, 10 years, ...) if we wanted the process to move a little faster.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 01:04:07 PM
Quote
Aston Villa’s long-term plan to build a 50,000-seat Villa Park is complex.
Vested interests are evident and time is pressing since Villa Park was named a host ground for the 2028 European Championship.
The proposal is to knock down the North Stand, wrapping it with the neighbouring Trinity Road Stand and Doug Ellis Stand, which means the next two seasons would be played in front of three stands.
Concerns over transport links need to be overcome, too, with discussions about whether the money needed from the West Midlands Combined Authority (WMCA) — made up of 18 local councils and crucial in enabling the stadium rebuild — would be better served elsewhere.
And there are politics at play: Aston residents are overwhelmingly Labour voters, yet the WMCA is chaired by the Conservative Party.
Explained: Aston Villa's stadium redevelopment plans
Time is ticking and crunch decisions are approaching. The Athletic explains the situation, why the surroundings of Villa Park have become such a thorny issue and what happens next…
‘A stadium that is for more than just football’
Villa Park last underwent major redevelopment from 2000-2001, when a bigger Trinity Road Stand was built from scratch, controversially dismantling the iconic old red brick construction. In the two decades since, there has been an increasing appetite for expansion, accentuated by the need to add 7,400 seats by May 2026 before the UK and Ireland host Euro 2028.
Guidelines from UEFA, which organises the tournament, say the redevelopment has to be trialled for one season before the competition.
The initial hope was to demolish the North Stand following a Foo Fighters concert at Villa Park in June 2024. On March 1 this year, Villa said a “timetable for demolition and rebuilding work” would be announced in the ensuing months “following full consideration of all logistical and economic factors”.
In April 2022, then-chief executive Christian Purslow announced plans to redevelop Villa Park across several phases. As part of Villa’s aim to increase revenue, enabling them to compete among the Premier League’s elite, this included a complete rebuild of the North Stand, formerly known as the Witton End, that would cost roughly £100million ($125m) and provide “a world-class and entertainment venue” known as “Villa Live”.
Villa Park
Villa plan to complete redevelop the North Stand (Paul Thomas/Getty Images)
The venue would serve as an equivalent to Wembley’s Boxpark, which is a casual entertainment and dining area. In December 2022, Villa were granted planning approval from Birmingham City Council.
Two months later, after a review of the proposals, Villa presented plans for ‘phase one’ of the redevelopment during a public consultation.
The chief conduit between Villa and the WMCA was Purslow, who had previously donated to the Conservative Party, including a £50,000 contribution in November 2019.
Villa wanted to create:
A stadium that is for more than just football
A catalyst for local regeneration
An integrated destination for the Midlands
A dynamic public area for the community
A venue to inspire a new generation of football fans.
Villa and the council’s ideals, however, have changed since, and revised plans for Villa Park and its surrounding areas are set to be released before the end of the year.
Inflation has taken hold since initial proposals and, according to sources close to the project who agreed to speak on the condition of anonymity, costs have risen by tens of millions. Other problems, such as the lack of transport and on-site parking around the stadium, require further feasibility studies.
Witton station – ‘not fit for purpose’
A key sticking point centres on the local railway station, Witton. Villa Park is only three miles north of the well-connected centre of Birmingham but Witton is not big or efficient enough to withstand the number of fans travelling on matchdays. Aston station, which is a 15-minute walk from the stadium, and buses are options for fans.
Any capacity increase would place an unmanageable strain on local transport, so Villa need the stadium expansion to happen at the same time as Witton’s rebuild.
UEFA’s overall sustainability strategy also indicates that 60 to 80 per cent of match-going supporters go via public transport, and this would not be feasible at Euro 2028 without Witton shouldering a significant chunk of the burden. West Midlands Council, however, is unclear whether the guidelines are compulsory or advisory. UEFA said its sustainability strategy for Euro 2028 has not yet been finalised.
Purslow, speaking this year, described the station as “not fit for purpose”. Any regeneration of Witton station would include a new tunnel under the railway, preventing queuing on the main road. Andy Street, the Conservative mayor of the West Midlands, and Purslow met in June 2022, with improvements to Witton the priority.
Witton train station is less than a quarter of a mile from Villa Park (Photo:Jacob Tanswell/The Athletic)
“We need to do a better job of public transport at Villa Park,” Street tells The Athletic. “Given that Villa are increasing their capacity, it makes it even more important. The revised plans don’t change the capacity streams — that part of the plan is fixed.”
A lack of carriages, platforms and general service is more problematic than the facilities at Witton. The city line runs more frequently when Villa Park is in use, but the frequency of matchday trains has dropped from six per hour to four. With Villa’s participation in the Europa Conference League adding more games at night and on Sundays, transport links have become even more problematic.
Feasibility studies have examined extra slots in the timetable for more trains on matchdays, and increasing the capacity of platforms and access routes from Witton to Villa Park.
West Midlands Railway is due to replace the carriages on the line going to Witton next year, increasing capacity, and bringing those plans forward is under consideration.
Rebuilding Witton could cost the council £30m, comparable to what it took to redevelop Perry Barr, another Midlands train station, in 2021 before the 2022 Commonwealth Games in Birmingham. If the regeneration of Witton is approved, the WMCA is set to fund it.
This summer, Street commissioned a feasibility study to look into the development of the station and transform it, in the mayor’s words, from “ageing and overcrowded” to “modern and spacious”. Birmingham City Council received the initial physical feasibility study in October and is examining the next steps, with a decision expected in the coming weeks.
Observers close to the situation, however, preach caution. There are competing requirements for the money, including from other Birmingham stations — considering how quiet it is when Villa Park is not in use, is Witton worth £30million of investment? Public money is tight and this will be a political decision as much as anything.
Witton has two platforms and gets crowded when Villa are playing (Photo: Jacob Tanswell/The Athletic)
“Poor public transport on matchdays and concerts has been an own goal impacting residents and fans,” said Lee Marsham, a Labour councillor for Birmingham City Council representing Nechells, and a Villa season ticket holder.
“Witton station needs upgrading, but the West Midlands Mayor, Andy Street has only now authorised a study with no guaranteed funding after several years of sitting on the sidelines. Let’s hope it actually results in something, unlike the many delayed transport projects across our region.”
Ubers, parking and ‘not enough bins’
Even now, Villa receive more complaints about transport and footfall than any other issue. With Villa Park stuck on an island surrounded by tightly packed terraced housing, expanding the stadium would have repercussions for the surrounding areas.
One of the purposes of the proposed Villa Live scheme was to keep a percentage of match-going fans around the ground after full time through improved entertainment, catering and bars. This would, theoretically, stagger supporters’ journeys from the ground.
Transport issues started to return when Villa returned to the Premier League in the 2019-20 season and there was an increased demand for tickets. Supporters noticed cars being parked closer to the ground. Parking restrictions have contributed to the rise of supporters using taxis, with Uber drivers cramming around Villa Park and presenting a traffic challenge that did not exist five years ago. Many fans walk away from the stadium for 20 minutes before calling a taxi to get away from the traffic, but that is problematic for those with mobility issues.
To counteract this, Villa intend to speak with residents about controlled parking zones and designated pick-up points for taxis.
Villa’s form has made tickets even more sought-after (Photo: Neville Williams/Aston Villa FC via Getty Images)
One local observer, who did not wish to give their name, described the situation as “carnage” and questioned how severe the problem would exacerbate following a capacity increase. They said the area struggles with the number of bins, which they feel are not sufficient to cover the 40,000-plus spectators descending on a matchday.
Villa are trying to be proactive and are deploying a ‘one per cent’ plan. For instance, if one per cent of the proposed 50,000 supporters went via bus and then another one per cent took another mode of public transport, it would make a marked difference in reducing matchday congestion.
When the original Villa Park planning application was approved, councillors were granted a provision to enable Villa Park to pay for a consultation about extending matchday parking up to three-quarters of a mile outside the stadium. The purpose was to relieve congestion and give breathing space to residents.
Villa also provided additional transport for the final Premier League game of the season against Brighton & Hove Albion in May, with a one-off pre-match shuttle service running from Dudley Street near Birmingham New Street station. Buses attracting 350 fans left every 10 minutes and cost £5, with a five-minute walk from the drop-off to the stadium.
The operation was inspired by Edgbaston’s solution to spectator footfall before and after international cricket fixtures, having deployed a fleet of buses outside Birmingham New Street that drops supporters off at the ground.
“Edgbaston works superbly,” says Street. “However, for something which is once a week for Villa and half of the year, for local people, the train is a much more realistic option.
“The demand is there, so we should have a stadium that fits that status. We want that to happen. The proportion of our fans who travel by public transport to the ground isn’t high enough, so we’ve got to improve that.
“And UEFA has said that it expects 80 per cent of journeys to be taken by public transport. So, this is very important.”
Political wrangling
Euro 2028 would deliver a boost to the local economy but the preparations provide an opportunity for political figures to raise their profiles in the run-up to elections next year.
“Doing this job, you just have to decide to do what’s right,” says Street. “If Birmingham is lucky enough to be a UEFA host, it is appropriate some of the money comes from the government and we put some money in ourselves. It’s all about building the brand of the place.”
Progress has been altered by the departure of Purslow, as well as Villa’s chief operating and commercial officers. This season, Ron Erskine joined as the chief commercial officer, with Ben Hatton becoming chief operating officer.
Chris Heck, president of Villa’s business operations, plans to be actively involved in discussions, given the North Stand will be demolished and thousands of season ticket holders will have to move seats for two seasons. Ticket availability will be very limited for fans without season tickets.
With Villa Park sitting between a Conservative West Midlands mayor and a Labour city-run council that will also need to give planning permission, Witton and the stadium redevelopment cross political borders.
The multitude of factors to consider highlights the complexity of working decisively to grow Villa Park and its surrounding areas.
The bit in bold. Cnut.
Edit: from here https://theathletic.com/4859473/2023/11/21/rebuilding-villa-park/
Post by: astonvilla82 on November 21, 2023, 03:21:48 PM
Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of our support voted conservative at the last electionQuoteAston Villa’s long-term plan to build a 50,000-seat Villa Park is complex.
Vested interests are evident and time is pressing since Villa Park was named a host ground for the 2028 European Championship.
The proposal is to knock down the North Stand, wrapping it with the neighbouring Trinity Road Stand and Doug Ellis Stand, which means the next two seasons would be played in front of three stands.
Concerns over transport links need to be overcome, too, with discussions about whether the money needed from the West Midlands Combined Authority (WMCA) — made up of 18 local councils and crucial in enabling the stadium rebuild — would be better served elsewhere.
And there are politics at play: Aston residents are overwhelmingly Labour voters, yet the WMCA is chaired by the Conservative Party.
Explained: Aston Villa's stadium redevelopment plans
Time is ticking and crunch decisions are approaching. The Athletic explains the situation, why the surroundings of Villa Park have become such a thorny issue and what happens next…
‘A stadium that is for more than just football’
Villa Park last underwent major redevelopment from 2000-2001, when a bigger Trinity Road Stand was built from scratch, controversially dismantling the iconic old red brick construction. In the two decades since, there has been an increasing appetite for expansion, accentuated by the need to add 7,400 seats by May 2026 before the UK and Ireland host Euro 2028.
Guidelines from UEFA, which organises the tournament, say the redevelopment has to be trialled for one season before the competition.
The initial hope was to demolish the North Stand following a Foo Fighters concert at Villa Park in June 2024. On March 1 this year, Villa said a “timetable for demolition and rebuilding work” would be announced in the ensuing months “following full consideration of all logistical and economic factors”.
In April 2022, then-chief executive Christian Purslow announced plans to redevelop Villa Park across several phases. As part of Villa’s aim to increase revenue, enabling them to compete among the Premier League’s elite, this included a complete rebuild of the North Stand, formerly known as the Witton End, that would cost roughly £100million ($125m) and provide “a world-class and entertainment venue” known as “Villa Live”.
Villa Park
Villa plan to complete redevelop the North Stand (Paul Thomas/Getty Images)
The venue would serve as an equivalent to Wembley’s Boxpark, which is a casual entertainment and dining area. In December 2022, Villa were granted planning approval from Birmingham City Council.
Two months later, after a review of the proposals, Villa presented plans for ‘phase one’ of the redevelopment during a public consultation.
The chief conduit between Villa and the WMCA was Purslow, who had previously donated to the Conservative Party, including a £50,000 contribution in November 2019.
Villa wanted to create:
A stadium that is for more than just football
A catalyst for local regeneration
An integrated destination for the Midlands
A dynamic public area for the community
A venue to inspire a new generation of football fans.
Villa and the council’s ideals, however, have changed since, and revised plans for Villa Park and its surrounding areas are set to be released before the end of the year.
Inflation has taken hold since initial proposals and, according to sources close to the project who agreed to speak on the condition of anonymity, costs have risen by tens of millions. Other problems, such as the lack of transport and on-site parking around the stadium, require further feasibility studies.
Witton station – ‘not fit for purpose’
A key sticking point centres on the local railway station, Witton. Villa Park is only three miles north of the well-connected centre of Birmingham but Witton is not big or efficient enough to withstand the number of fans travelling on matchdays. Aston station, which is a 15-minute walk from the stadium, and buses are options for fans.
Any capacity increase would place an unmanageable strain on local transport, so Villa need the stadium expansion to happen at the same time as Witton’s rebuild.
UEFA’s overall sustainability strategy also indicates that 60 to 80 per cent of match-going supporters go via public transport, and this would not be feasible at Euro 2028 without Witton shouldering a significant chunk of the burden. West Midlands Council, however, is unclear whether the guidelines are compulsory or advisory. UEFA said its sustainability strategy for Euro 2028 has not yet been finalised.
Purslow, speaking this year, described the station as “not fit for purpose”. Any regeneration of Witton station would include a new tunnel under the railway, preventing queuing on the main road. Andy Street, the Conservative mayor of the West Midlands, and Purslow met in June 2022, with improvements to Witton the priority.
Witton train station is less than a quarter of a mile from Villa Park (Photo:Jacob Tanswell/The Athletic)
“We need to do a better job of public transport at Villa Park,” Street tells The Athletic. “Given that Villa are increasing their capacity, it makes it even more important. The revised plans don’t change the capacity streams — that part of the plan is fixed.”
A lack of carriages, platforms and general service is more problematic than the facilities at Witton. The city line runs more frequently when Villa Park is in use, but the frequency of matchday trains has dropped from six per hour to four. With Villa’s participation in the Europa Conference League adding more games at night and on Sundays, transport links have become even more problematic.
Feasibility studies have examined extra slots in the timetable for more trains on matchdays, and increasing the capacity of platforms and access routes from Witton to Villa Park.
West Midlands Railway is due to replace the carriages on the line going to Witton next year, increasing capacity, and bringing those plans forward is under consideration.
Rebuilding Witton could cost the council £30m, comparable to what it took to redevelop Perry Barr, another Midlands train station, in 2021 before the 2022 Commonwealth Games in Birmingham. If the regeneration of Witton is approved, the WMCA is set to fund it.
This summer, Street commissioned a feasibility study to look into the development of the station and transform it, in the mayor’s words, from “ageing and overcrowded” to “modern and spacious”. Birmingham City Council received the initial physical feasibility study in October and is examining the next steps, with a decision expected in the coming weeks.
Observers close to the situation, however, preach caution. There are competing requirements for the money, including from other Birmingham stations — considering how quiet it is when Villa Park is not in use, is Witton worth £30million of investment? Public money is tight and this will be a political decision as much as anything.
Witton has two platforms and gets crowded when Villa are playing (Photo: Jacob Tanswell/The Athletic)
“Poor public transport on matchdays and concerts has been an own goal impacting residents and fans,” said Lee Marsham, a Labour councillor for Birmingham City Council representing Nechells, and a Villa season ticket holder.
“Witton station needs upgrading, but the West Midlands Mayor, Andy Street has only now authorised a study with no guaranteed funding after several years of sitting on the sidelines. Let’s hope it actually results in something, unlike the many delayed transport projects across our region.”
Ubers, parking and ‘not enough bins’
Even now, Villa receive more complaints about transport and footfall than any other issue. With Villa Park stuck on an island surrounded by tightly packed terraced housing, expanding the stadium would have repercussions for the surrounding areas.
One of the purposes of the proposed Villa Live scheme was to keep a percentage of match-going fans around the ground after full time through improved entertainment, catering and bars. This would, theoretically, stagger supporters’ journeys from the ground.
Transport issues started to return when Villa returned to the Premier League in the 2019-20 season and there was an increased demand for tickets. Supporters noticed cars being parked closer to the ground. Parking restrictions have contributed to the rise of supporters using taxis, with Uber drivers cramming around Villa Park and presenting a traffic challenge that did not exist five years ago. Many fans walk away from the stadium for 20 minutes before calling a taxi to get away from the traffic, but that is problematic for those with mobility issues.
To counteract this, Villa intend to speak with residents about controlled parking zones and designated pick-up points for taxis.
Villa’s form has made tickets even more sought-after (Photo: Neville Williams/Aston Villa FC via Getty Images)
One local observer, who did not wish to give their name, described the situation as “carnage” and questioned how severe the problem would exacerbate following a capacity increase. They said the area struggles with the number of bins, which they feel are not sufficient to cover the 40,000-plus spectators descending on a matchday.
Villa are trying to be proactive and are deploying a ‘one per cent’ plan. For instance, if one per cent of the proposed 50,000 supporters went via bus and then another one per cent took another mode of public transport, it would make a marked difference in reducing matchday congestion.
When the original Villa Park planning application was approved, councillors were granted a provision to enable Villa Park to pay for a consultation about extending matchday parking up to three-quarters of a mile outside the stadium. The purpose was to relieve congestion and give breathing space to residents.
Villa also provided additional transport for the final Premier League game of the season against Brighton & Hove Albion in May, with a one-off pre-match shuttle service running from Dudley Street near Birmingham New Street station. Buses attracting 350 fans left every 10 minutes and cost £5, with a five-minute walk from the drop-off to the stadium.
The operation was inspired by Edgbaston’s solution to spectator footfall before and after international cricket fixtures, having deployed a fleet of buses outside Birmingham New Street that drops supporters off at the ground.
“Edgbaston works superbly,” says Street. “However, for something which is once a week for Villa and half of the year, for local people, the train is a much more realistic option.
“The demand is there, so we should have a stadium that fits that status. We want that to happen. The proportion of our fans who travel by public transport to the ground isn’t high enough, so we’ve got to improve that.
“And UEFA has said that it expects 80 per cent of journeys to be taken by public transport. So, this is very important.”
Political wrangling
Euro 2028 would deliver a boost to the local economy but the preparations provide an opportunity for political figures to raise their profiles in the run-up to elections next year.
“Doing this job, you just have to decide to do what’s right,” says Street. “If Birmingham is lucky enough to be a UEFA host, it is appropriate some of the money comes from the government and we put some money in ourselves. It’s all about building the brand of the place.”
Progress has been altered by the departure of Purslow, as well as Villa’s chief operating and commercial officers. This season, Ron Erskine joined as the chief commercial officer, with Ben Hatton becoming chief operating officer.
Chris Heck, president of Villa’s business operations, plans to be actively involved in discussions, given the North Stand will be demolished and thousands of season ticket holders will have to move seats for two seasons. Ticket availability will be very limited for fans without season tickets.
With Villa Park sitting between a Conservative West Midlands mayor and a Labour city-run council that will also need to give planning permission, Witton and the stadium redevelopment cross political borders.
The multitude of factors to consider highlights the complexity of working decisively to grow Villa Park and its surrounding areas.
The bit in bold. Cnut.
Edit: from here https://theathletic.com/4859473/2023/11/21/rebuilding-villa-park/
Post by: DeKuip on November 21, 2023, 03:28:49 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 03:29:27 PM
Post by: AV82EC on November 21, 2023, 03:30:20 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on November 21, 2023, 03:32:49 PM
There's voting, and there's donating.I have more of a problem with people voting conservative
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 03:33:30 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on November 21, 2023, 03:37:06 PM
Post by: Ads on November 21, 2023, 04:12:18 PM
Post by: coreyfeldman on November 21, 2023, 04:14:39 PM
I have more of a problem with people quoting massive posts for no particular reason.
Amen brother
Post by: Bad English on November 21, 2023, 04:24:21 PM
I have more of a problem with people quoting massive posts for no particular reason.Yours is tiny so I am quoting it to say.'This™:
Post by: Drummond on November 21, 2023, 04:34:13 PM
I have more of a problem with people quoting massive posts for no particular reason.Yours is tiny so I am quoting it to say.'This™:
Discuss
Post by: Kevin Dawson on November 21, 2023, 04:49:25 PM
There's voting, and there's donating.I have more of a problem with people voting conservative
I don't. I may disagree with them, but I respect their right to choose. As much as I want them to lose the next election, I don't want to see a landslide. Effective opposition holds the government to account.
Post by: Drummond on November 21, 2023, 04:57:55 PM
There's voting, and there's donating.I have more of a problem with people voting conservative
I don't. I may disagree with them, but I respect their right to choose. As much as I want them to lose the next election, I don't want to see a landslide. Effective opposition holds the government to account.
Ah, the problem there is the word 'effective'.
Post by: Kevin Dawson on November 21, 2023, 05:00:45 PM
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 06:22:39 PM
Post by: Clampy on November 21, 2023, 06:25:16 PM
Whats the love in with labour on here all about , anybody remember blairs comments , wich after the protests of the last few weeks are all their making !! , they aint gunna do nothing for mr average english man.
What?
And what is the Mr average english man?
Post by: astonvilla82 on November 21, 2023, 06:25:38 PM
Whats the love in with labour on here all about , anybody remember blairs comments , wich after the protests of the last few weeks are all their making !! , they aint gunna do nothing for mr average englsh man.no love for Labour from me a Labour supporter because they are good at making promises and screwing up the country like the present government,
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 06:27:12 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 06:31:03 PM
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 06:33:27 PM
You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,anyway i aint in to politics i was just curious .
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 06:36:45 PM
You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,
I can only speak for myself, by my firm intention is to vote Labour to victory and then immediately begin moaning about how we might as well have a load of fucking Tories running the show. There's no love there. It's about sequencing hatred for me.
Post by: Clampy on November 21, 2023, 06:39:49 PM
You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,anyway i aint in to politics i was just curious .
And talking nonsense as well as curious.
Post by: dave.woodhall on November 21, 2023, 06:51:25 PM
Really , middle earner 2 kids , hard working etc etc
I don't have two kids and I'm idle.
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 06:55:42 PM
Oh your all so fuckin funnyReally , middle earner 2 kids , hard working etc etc
I don't have two kids and I'm idle.
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 06:57:19 PM
Why ?You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,anyway i aint in to politics i was just curious .
And talking nonsense as well as curious.
Post by: Clampy on November 21, 2023, 06:58:17 PM
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 07:01:00 PM
I'll leave you to read back through your previous posts.Why just cuz i dared to ask a question why what is a thread about VP redevelopment , being turned into slagging tories and tory voters !! Wich obviously goes against your narrative ,
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 07:03:53 PM
I'll leave you to read back through your previous posts.Why just cuz i dared to ask a question why what is a thread about VP redevelopment , being turned into slagging tories and tory voters !! Wich obviously goes against your narrative ,
That was me. I don't miss a beat when it comes to Purslow and his Tory smarm.
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 07:05:14 PM
I'll leave you to read back through your previous posts.Why just cuz i dared to ask a question why what is a thread about VP redevelopment , being turned into slagging tories and tory voters !! Wich obviously goes against your narrative ,
That was me. I don't miss a beat when it comes to Purslow and his Tory smarm.
Haha nice one 👍
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 21, 2023, 07:05:35 PM
I'll leave you to read back through your previous posts.Why just cuz i dared to ask a question why what is a thread about VP redevelopment , being turned into slagging tories and tory voters !! Wich obviously goes against your narrative ,
Can you do us all a favour and either spell check or stop the abbreviations in posts. It makes your posts much easier to read.
Thanks
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 21, 2023, 07:05:47 PM
I'll leave you to read back through your previous posts.Why just cuz i dared to ask a question why what is a thread about VP redevelopment , being turned into slagging tories and tory voters !! Wich obviously goes against your narrative ,
Clearly they haven't put enough money into schools.
Post by: langleylions on November 21, 2023, 07:07:41 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on November 21, 2023, 07:10:36 PM
Post by: Clampy on November 21, 2023, 07:11:25 PM
My god i gotta say what a bunch of precious fannies you lot are
Why, because some people vote differently to you? It's called democracy you know.
Post by: algy on November 21, 2023, 07:29:24 PM
The problem with the current political discourse is the Tories and Labour are always doing things to support hard working families. They do fuck all for half arsed dossers like myself who try to avoid work, and in particular any kind of activity you could describe as "hard work".You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,
I can only speak for myself, by my firm intention is to vote Labour to victory and then immediately begin moaning about how we might as well have a load of fucking Tories running the show. There's no love there. It's about sequencing hatred for me.
When will we get a political party that stand up for the bone idle?
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 07:31:54 PM
The problem with the current political discourse is the Tories and Labour are always doing things to support hard working families. They do fuck all for half arsed dossers like myself who try to avoid work, and in particular any kind of activity you could describe as "hard work".You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,
I can only speak for myself, by my firm intention is to vote Labour to victory and then immediately begin moaning about how we might as well have a load of fucking Tories running the show. There's no love there. It's about sequencing hatred for me.
When will we get a political party that stand up for the bone idle?
If you start the revolution, brother, I will follow. And first up against the wall? Well, nobody. Can't be arsed.
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 21, 2023, 07:33:08 PM
The problem with the current political discourse is the Tories and Labour are always doing things to support hard working families. They do fuck all for half arsed dossers like myself who try to avoid work, and in particular any kind of activity you could describe as "hard work".You're the first person to mention the Labour party.Just naturally assuming those slagging the tories off vote labour ,
I can only speak for myself, by my firm intention is to vote Labour to victory and then immediately begin moaning about how we might as well have a load of fucking Tories running the show. There's no love there. It's about sequencing hatred for me.
When will we get a political party that stand up for the bone idle?
If you start the revolution, brother, I will follow. And first up against the wall? Well, nobody. Can't be arsed.
What time do I have to get out of bed for this revolution?
Post by: Sexual Ealing on November 21, 2023, 07:35:16 PM
Revolution's off. I'll continue moaning on the internet.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 21, 2023, 07:38:11 PM
My god i gotta say what a bunch of precious fannies you lot are
“Mommy, the nasty men on the internet are laughing at my spelling.”
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 21, 2023, 07:42:17 PM
My god i gotta say what a bunch of precious fannies you lot are
“Mommy, the nasty men on the internet are laughing at my spelling.”
And BE isn't even around, FFS!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 21, 2023, 07:42:44 PM
I didn't realise we'd have to get out of bed.
Revolution's off. I'll continue moaning on the internet.
The Revolution Will Be Televised. Thank fuck.
Post by: Ads on November 21, 2023, 08:52:15 PM
I didn't realise we'd have to get out of bed.
Revolution's off. I'll continue moaning on the internet.
The Revolution Will Be Televised. Thank fuck.
It's been moved to 2pm on a Sunday.
Post by: Gareth on November 21, 2023, 08:55:31 PM
Whats the love in with labour on here all about , anybody remember blairs comments , wich after the protests of the last few weeks are all their making !! , they aint gunna do nothing for mr average english man.
What?
And what is the Mr average english man?
I’m going for about 4 inches?
Post by: Clampy on November 21, 2023, 08:57:06 PM
Whats the love in with labour on here all about , anybody remember blairs comments , wich after the protests of the last few weeks are all their making !! , they aint gunna do nothing for mr average english man.
What?
And what is the Mr average english man?
I’m going for about 4 inches?
Very good.
Post by: eamonn on November 22, 2023, 10:55:04 AM
Post by: Luffbralion on November 22, 2023, 12:03:44 PM
Is this the first time that construction of the North Stand has been stated to take two years/seasons rather than one?I too was surprised to see this in the Athletic article. I seem to remember the Holte was rebuilt much quicker than this. As a North stand season ticket holder for 25 years (with a fabulous view) I won't be happy being shunted into the wilderness for this long. It will also mean much reduced revenue for the club and far fewer general tickets available. Can anyone clarify what's happening?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 22, 2023, 12:04:51 PM
Post by: Bully2345 on November 22, 2023, 12:08:50 PM
Post by: Villan82 on November 22, 2023, 12:13:36 PM
The two seasons thing with the new North has been known for a while but it has never made sense to me if I am honest
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 22, 2023, 12:17:19 PM
The new Holte and new Trinity were both completed in about 6 months and fully operational at that.
I find that hard to believe. Are you sure about that?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on November 22, 2023, 12:18:54 PM
The new Holte and new Trinity were both completed in about 6 months and fully operational at that.
I find that hard to believe. Are you sure about that?
The Witton Lane I could believe :-\
Post by: Bully2345 on November 22, 2023, 12:20:28 PM
"Prior to the stand being demolished, up to seven months of preparation is needed to divert drains, high voltage electrics and matchday safety systems, while hundreds of cables will also need to be replaced for broadcasting. It’s a huge undertaking before Villa can even begin building a completely new stand.
Knocking the stand down entirely is viewed as the most efficient way to deliver greater capacity at the stadium, instead of building behind the current structure, like other clubs have done in recent years. Building a new stand behind the current North Stand would prevent construction workers from accessing key areas of the build."
I won't post the link but it was on there on 13th September.
Post by: Villan82 on November 22, 2023, 12:28:10 PM
The new Holte and new Trinity were both completed in about 6 months and fully operational at that.
I find that hard to believe. Are you sure about that?
I seem to remember the Holte fully open for the Chelsea game around Christmas 1994 and the new Trinity being fully open in January 2001?
Post by: London Villan on November 22, 2023, 12:48:04 PM
The new North is much more complicated - it has all the new offices, hospitality, retail and dressing rooms - as well as affecting the northern end of the Trinity.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on November 22, 2023, 12:50:31 PM
Post by: Villan82 on November 22, 2023, 01:02:04 PM
I am sure safety regulations are tighter now but my point is basically this- surely the lower tier could conceivably be open to fans in year two of the build while they finish the bells and whistles off the Upper and Interior?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 22, 2023, 01:30:49 PM
Fair points on the complications with the new North which will be a more complex stand. All the same, I don't see why it can't house fans at all for two years when, as PWS points out, it was possible to arrange for the Lower Holte to house fans before the Upper Holte was completed?
I am sure safety regulations are tighter now but my point is basically this- surely the lower tier could conceivably be open to fans in year two of the build while they finish the bells and whistles off the Upper and Interior?
Apparently because the workforce wouldn't be able to do that they need to do with the stand partially open.
The reason I suspect this is all true is because I find it hard to believe the club would not want to start taking money off people in the new stand as quickly as they possibly could
Post by: AV82EC on November 22, 2023, 01:49:53 PM
The fact we have owners who would rather do it properly and with due regard to how the stand works and functions strikes me as a much more sensible way to go about things. If that means we’re on reduced capacity for longer than we want, so be it.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 22, 2023, 02:06:44 PM
Let’s be honest here, the last time we did this the stands were thrown up as Doug wanted as minimum as time as possible with reduced capacities without thought for the functionality of each stand, decisions we’re living with today with poor facilities in a number of those stands.
The fact we have owners who would rather do it properly and with due regard to how the stand works and functions strikes me as a much more sensible way to go about things. If that means we’re on reduced capacity for longer than we want, so be it.
Same here.
Post by: Villan82 on November 22, 2023, 03:31:53 PM
Let’s be honest here, the last time we did this the stands were thrown up as Doug wanted as minimum as time as possible with reduced capacities without thought for the functionality of each stand, decisions we’re living with today with poor facilities in a number of those stands.
The fact we have owners who would rather do it properly and with due regard to how the stand works and functions strikes me as a much more sensible way to go about things. If that means we’re on reduced capacity for longer than we want, so be it.
Same here.
All true, and very well said.
I was coming at it from the angle of, should this be the year we make the top four, it would be a shame to have reduced capacity for the CL games.
Post by: AV82EC on November 22, 2023, 03:47:00 PM
Let’s be honest here, the last time we did this the stands were thrown up as Doug wanted as minimum as time as possible with reduced capacities without thought for the functionality of each stand, decisions we’re living with today with poor facilities in a number of those stands.
The fact we have owners who would rather do it properly and with due regard to how the stand works and functions strikes me as a much more sensible way to go about things. If that means we’re on reduced capacity for longer than we want, so be it.
Same here.
All true, and very well said.
I was coming at it from the angle of, should this be the year we make the top four, it would be a shame to have reduced capacity for the CL games.
It would be but as ever it’s balancing the short term pain with the longer term benefit of sorting the stadium out. However that’s easy for me to say as a STH who’d be guaranteed my seat as long as I could afford it.
Post by: tomd2103 on November 22, 2023, 09:35:06 PM
Let’s be honest here, the last time we did this the stands were thrown up as Doug wanted as minimum as time as possible with reduced capacities without thought for the functionality of each stand, decisions we’re living with today with poor facilities in a number of those stands.
The fact we have owners who would rather do it properly and with due regard to how the stand works and functions strikes me as a much more sensible way to go about things. If that means we’re on reduced capacity for longer than we want, so be it.
It's just that if we do.finish in the top.5 this season, it couldn't have come at a worse time to have a much reduced capacity really...
Post by: AV82EC on November 22, 2023, 09:41:16 PM
Let’s be honest here, the last time we did this the stands were thrown up as Doug wanted as minimum as time as possible with reduced capacities without thought for the functionality of each stand, decisions we’re living with today with poor facilities in a number of those stands.
The fact we have owners who would rather do it properly and with due regard to how the stand works and functions strikes me as a much more sensible way to go about things. If that means we’re on reduced capacity for longer than we want, so be it.
It's just that if we do.finish in the top.5 this season, it couldn't have come at a worse time to have a much reduced capacity really...
I agree but shit happens.
Post by: purpletrousers on November 22, 2023, 11:34:48 PM
Post by: coreyfeldman on November 22, 2023, 11:52:58 PM
Post by: claret+blue ed on November 23, 2023, 07:17:15 AM
Post by: eamonn on November 23, 2023, 09:54:41 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on November 23, 2023, 10:09:28 AM
I wonder what the reduced capacity will be for those two seasons....just over 30k?
35K including away fans ?
Post by: KevinGage on November 23, 2023, 10:11:09 AM
So more like 36000. Not ideal, but not the end of the world either. That's about the same as we had for Inter Milan at home in 1990, and atmosphere wasn't an issue in that game.
The new mob won't be skimping to the same extent Ellis did, but there might be 38 - 40,000 ready in that lower tier in the first year of construction. Not sure what the capacity of the lower tier on the new build is set to be, but it's bigger than the upper and wraps around to the Trinity and Witton Lane.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on November 23, 2023, 10:13:24 AM
Post by: London Villan on November 23, 2023, 10:25:11 AM
Post by: Villan For Life on November 23, 2023, 10:29:25 AM
Just checking the Simon Inglis books and the “money no object” Trinity Road took just over a year to build, between April 1922-August 1923 and all the groundwork was done by hand (and hosses’ hooves). Also, interesting to nerd like me, it wasn’t actually called the Trinity Road stand.
What was it originally called?
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on November 23, 2023, 10:35:18 AM
Post by: Risso on November 23, 2023, 10:39:38 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 23, 2023, 10:48:33 AM
The Pavilion
I hope Chris Heck hasn't read that book or before we know it, there will be a new "all the chips and booze you can neck" 'premium experience' lounge called 'The Pavilion' taking up half the Trinity concourse at a bargain £75 on top of your match ticket.
Post by: The Edge on November 23, 2023, 10:48:38 AM
I wonder what the reduced capacity will be for those two seasons....just over 30k?It's hard to tell. The capacity of the North Stand is around 7,200 so that leaves 35k but the new stand conjoins to the Trinity so part of that will have to be closed off. It's anyone's guess really but for me it's the perfect time to get it done. The feelgood factor is at an all-time high which is the best time to expand. There will be a clamour for ST's if we're flying once all the work is completed.
Post by: The Edge on November 23, 2023, 10:50:18 AM
Never knew that.Me neither and I class myself as a bit of a nerd when it comes to all things Villa Park.
Post by: Jean Quereue-Quereue on November 23, 2023, 12:16:05 PM
Post by: KevinGage on November 23, 2023, 12:20:06 PM
Post by: Ads on November 23, 2023, 12:35:53 PM
The concourse as we experienced in May is still there, only when we went in September, it had the new much bigger bit for you to walk through first.
Post by: Jean Quereue-Quereue on November 23, 2023, 12:36:20 PM
Haven't Liverpool had the lower tier of the Anfield Road stand still in use whilst they complete work in the upper tier?Yes, you're correct. Looks like a Witton Lane-style build the upper tier then do the lower tier after. (https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/anfield-redevelopment-liverpool-54-074-61-000-u-c.317919/page-131) Gives me the shudders looking at the partially constructed roof with spectators below. It shows that anything is possible, but would certainly add complexity and more things to go wrong, with more complex phasing resulting in increased contingency planning for risk affecting cost and time.
Post by: VillaTim on November 23, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
Post by: Dr Butler on November 23, 2023, 02:21:59 PM
can season ticket holders use this on a match day ? is there a cost or is it free ?
many thanks for any help
UTV
The Doc
Post by: paul_e on November 23, 2023, 02:41:14 PM
Yes, although the away end is slightly reduced in allocation. But the lower tier is as it ever was, just that the upper tier has been rebuilt.
The concourse as we experienced in May is still there, only when we went in September, it had the new much bigger bit for you to walk through first.
I doubt we'll do anything remotely like that, the entire stand will be closed for the full time. I'd also exxpect at least part of the development to see blocks (or at least partial blocks) at that end of the other 2 stands to be closed because there's work included in connecting them up.
Post by: Chris Smith on November 23, 2023, 03:17:01 PM
Hi all not sure if this question has been answered elsewhere in the thread, but the Holte Hotel...
can season ticket holders use this on a match day ? is there a cost or is it free ?
many thanks for any help
UTV
The Doc
Haven’t been in this season but previously it was open free of charge for Season Ticket holders.
Post by: DB on November 23, 2023, 03:17:19 PM
Post by: Ads on November 23, 2023, 03:33:21 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on November 23, 2023, 03:42:15 PM
Thinking about it, we played Wigan in the LC a week before Inter, 12k. I was Lower Holte that night.
Post by: Ads on November 23, 2023, 03:43:31 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on November 23, 2023, 03:48:27 PM
Post by: Dr Butler on November 23, 2023, 04:17:18 PM
Hi all not sure if this question has been answered elsewhere in the thread, but the Holte Hotel...
can season ticket holders use this on a match day ? is there a cost or is it free ?
many thanks for any help
UTV
The Doc
Haven’t been in this season but previously it was open free of charge for Season Ticket holders.
thanks Chris, might try it next home game.
UTV
The Doc
Post by: Ads on November 23, 2023, 04:27:52 PM
Post by: VillaTim on November 23, 2023, 04:42:00 PM
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on November 23, 2023, 05:07:07 PM
The Pavilion
I never knew that. Anyway, any excuse to post a pic. Circa 1969.
(https://i.ibb.co/7YxjH2J/5f7af8875e885f0019b473a3-FORIYA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7YxjH2J)
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 23, 2023, 05:55:09 PM
EDIT: the Holte Pub, not the Trinity Road stand.
Post by: DB on November 23, 2023, 07:45:23 PM
We didn't play Spurs until Jan '95. Lower tier was mainly open for Inter which was late '94. We'd played 3 home league games before then, Saints, Palace and Ipswich. All were under 25k. Newcastle a couple of days after Inter was 30k.
Thinking about it, we played Wigan in the LC a week before Inter, 12k. I was Lower Holte that night.
Ah yes, I was in the lower Trinity for that Season.
Post by: Colin B on November 28, 2023, 12:43:40 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on November 28, 2023, 01:00:00 PM
Does anybody know how many hospitality places there are currently in the North Stand and what the plans are to relocate these.No idea, but the plans will involve significantly increased hospitality in the Trinity and plenty in the new North.
Post by: rob_bridge on November 28, 2023, 01:26:29 PM
Does anybody know how many hospitality places there are currently in the North Stand and what the plans are to relocate these.No idea, but the plans will involve significantly increased hospitality in the Trinity and plenty in the new North.
How will it increase in Trinity? Would hope there is bucketloads in North to pay for the darn thing.
Post by: London Villan on November 28, 2023, 03:42:59 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on November 28, 2023, 05:20:18 PM
There is an extension to the existing two hospitality floors overlooking the park - it's in the plans. Plus all the space that currently houses the dressing rooms is being repurposed as they are building new dressing rooms in the corner of the two stands.
Hope they retain the current size and look of the tunnel with the trophies to left. Always looks good when it's shown on TV.
(https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/67/590x/tunn-437690.jpg?r=1686998680160) (https://ibb.co/7VNdLt2)
Post by: chrisw1 on November 28, 2023, 05:35:56 PM
There's what London Villa mentioned internally. But I also reckon those middle-tier seats will be at risk. The 1874 padded seats will only be the start of it would be my guess.Does anybody know how many hospitality places there are currently in the North Stand and what the plans are to relocate these.No idea, but the plans will involve significantly increased hospitality in the Trinity and plenty in the new North.
How will it increase in Trinity? Would hope there is bucketloads in North to pay for the darn thing.
Post by: London Villan on November 28, 2023, 06:22:49 PM
Post by: olaftab on November 29, 2023, 10:04:08 AM
There is an extension to the existing two hospitality floors overlooking the park - it's in the plans. Plus all the space that currently houses the dressing rooms is being repurposed as they are building new dressing rooms in the corner of the two stands.Hopefully that will eliminate the current arrangements where our team has to come out of the right side changing room and cross over to line up on the left.
Post by: Virgil Caine on November 29, 2023, 01:08:10 PM
Does anybody know how many hospitality places there are currently in the North Stand and what the plans are to relocate these.No idea, but the plans will involve significantly increased hospitality in the Trinity and plenty in the new North.
How will it increase in Trinity? Would hope there is bucketloads in North to pay for the darn thing.
Th 3 seats we have in B3 Middle Trinity have been padded since the beginning of the season. They are the mirror image of the same block of seats on the other side of the 'Directors' box which are used for the purchasers of the Lamplight (?) Corporate area (which, imho, is highly overpriced for what you get). I am prepared to get a letter before the completion of the North Stand rebuild that I will be required to give up those 3 seats which I have had for over 10 years to be re-allocated somewhere else. Whilst I know that Villa have to raise more capital for re-investment into the club I cannot help feeling miffed on the lack of communication on the plans going forward or expected timelines.
Post by: chrisw1 on November 29, 2023, 01:58:24 PM
Are those the '1874' seats Virgil? I strongly suspect you're right in terms of the future.Does anybody know how many hospitality places there are currently in the North Stand and what the plans are to relocate these.No idea, but the plans will involve significantly increased hospitality in the Trinity and plenty in the new North.
How will it increase in Trinity? Would hope there is bucketloads in North to pay for the darn thing.
Th 3 seats we have in B3 Middle Trinity have been padded since the beginning of the season. They are the mirror image of the same block of seats on the other side of the 'Directors' box which are used for the purchasers of the Lamplight (?) Corporate area (which, imho, is highly overpriced for what you get). I am prepared to get a letter before the completion of the North Stand rebuild that I will be required to give up those 3 seats which I have had for over 10 years to be re-allocated somewhere else. Whilst I know that Villa have to raise more capital for re-investment into the club I cannot help feeling miffed on the lack of communication on the plans going forward or expected timelines.
Look at Spurs, It looks to me like they have the equivalent of club Wembley going around most of the middle tier of the ground and is it 3 tiers of corporate along one side? This is what we're trying to compete with in terms of match-day revenue. I think the main point of the new North is to create more corporate space both in the stand itself but also as an overflow for fans relocated from a reconfigured Trinity.
Post by: London Villan on November 29, 2023, 02:54:04 PM
There is an extension to the existing two hospitality floors overlooking the park - it's in the plans. Plus all the space that currently houses the dressing rooms is being repurposed as they are building new dressing rooms in the corner of the two stands.Hopefully that will eliminate the current arrangements where our team has to come out of the right side changing room and cross over to line up on the left.
When the stand was built, the current Away dressing room was designed to be the Home dressing room - I can't recall the reason for the switch - may have been something to do with the number of showers or something mundane like that.
Post by: jon collett on November 29, 2023, 03:11:07 PM
Hopefully that will eliminate the current arrangements where our team has to come out of the right side changing room and cross over to line up on the left.
Why would this need to be the case given we kick about in the warm up in front of the Holte End?
Is it because our dugout is on the Witton End side?
Post by: SaddVillan on November 29, 2023, 04:04:19 PM
A couple of stand outs
Costs have risen from c. £4k to £10k a seat, driven by increasing labour and material prices, higher demands from fans for better facilities.
Spurs now take £16 per fan per game at their new ground compared to only £1.75 at White Hart Lane, which was very much a legacy stadium.
WHY ARE FOOTBALL STADIUMS SO EXPENSIVE TO BUILD?
Manchester United and Chelsea share a problem they cannot hope to run away from. Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge might be able to narrate storied chapters of the Premier League’s history, but neither can project a compelling future.
At least not in their current states. The famous homes of Manchester United and Chelsea have become weights that threaten to hold back their owners. They are not fit for an elite long-term purpose.
The day the first bulldozers come rumbling over the horizon might not be imminent, but it has become inevitable. There is an acceptance of that reality, even from those with the onerous task of funding it all.
The Premier League’s landscape will soon be modernising elsewhere, too.
Plans are afoot for Aston Villa, Nottingham Forest, Crystal Palace and Manchester City to increase capacities with new or extended stands in the next five years, a road that Liverpool and Fulham are already walking.
Everton are in the final 12 months of a build that will soon see them call Bramley-Moore Dock their 53,000-capacity home and upsizing is also on the mind of Luton Town and Bournemouth. Newcastle United, too, are considering all options for the future of St James’ Park.
Stadium improvements are becoming more a necessity than a choice as clubs keep pace with the moves of competitors, but these grand plans are increasingly reliant on huge financial commitments.
Neither Manchester United nor Chelsea can realistically hope to transform Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge and have change left from £1billion ($1.26b), a figure that is in line with what it cost Tottenham Hotspur to deliver their new home in 2019 and also what was needed to complete a rebuild of Real Madrid’s 85,000-capacity Santiago Bernabeu stadium this year.
Everton’s stadium should come in well short of that mark, with their project forecast to cost anywhere between £550million and £760million, but that is equal to at least twice the club’s annual turnover.
Not an investment for the faint of heart, nor are any of those being undertaken by Premier League rivals. Fulham’s rebuilt Riverside Stand, housing 8,650 fans when eventually complete, has already cost more than £120million, while Crystal Palace’s new 13,500-capacity Main Stand has been forecast to cost £150million.
Much has changed from the stadium construction boom around the turn of the century when teams such as Sunderland, Southampton, Leicester City and Derby County could build sizable new homes from scratch for less than £35million. Old Trafford’s North Stand, subsequently renamed after Sir Alex Ferguson, was said to have cost less than £19million when knocked up in the 1990s.
Even Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium, completed in 2006 to great acclaim, cost roughly 40 per cent of what north London rivals Tottenham needed to fund their stadium 13 years later. Brighton & Hove Albion’s slick home, meanwhile, cost less to build in 2011 than they made when selling Moises Caicedo to Chelsea for £100million this summer.
So why are these modern construction projects so much more expensive?
Inflation can account for plenty, including the sharp rises in the cost of raw materials and labour, but it is a change in expectation that sees football’s newest structures demanding huge investment.
“It’s increasingly about how much it’s going to cost and also how much revenue it can make,” says Christopher Lee, a managing director at Populous, the architecture firm with 40 years of experience in designing sports stadiums and arenas across the world, including Wembley and the Lusail Stadium, host of the 2022 World Cup final in Qatar.
“Historically, it would have been: ‘A club has £100milion, let’s go for it’. Now it’s very much about a return on the investment. If I spend X, how can I return Y?
“They are huge investments in time and money and there’s the idea now that it should be an amazing experience for supporters. It’s not just about ground capacity or how many bodies you can squeeze in. Now clubs are asking how they can genuinely compete with the high street.”
The changes driving the rising costs are clear.
“It’s the level of quality, the level of expectation,” adds Lee. “There’s inflation and, at the moment, there’s a huge peak in construction costs. But the level of aspiration and the level of finish are so different.
“The level of expectation from a general admission concourse has changed so much. Look at a build like Bolton Wanderers (finished in 1997). It’s concrete floors, breeze block walls, roller shutters from an industrial site and a couple of beer taps. Then you look at Spurs and it’s like any bar you’d find in London.
“A lot of it is aspiration and also what clubs can create. Spurs want it to be a seven-day-a-week stadium, multi-sport, multi-event where the investment is worth it.”
No longer are stadiums and stands designed as basic, empty shells just for Saturday afternoons. Now a football club’s home needs to be a driving force for revenue.
Tottenham, a club without a major trophy in 15 years, are now breathing down the necks of Manchester United as the English club with the greatest matchday turnover thanks, primarily, to the design of their 62,000-capacity stadium. As well as hosting NFL matches and major concerts by using a retractable pitch, the vast stands give fans a reason to arrive for games early and leave late.
Money made through the turnstiles has more than doubled since Spurs left White Hart Lane in 2017, with the annual gate receipts climbing from £48million to £108million. An off-field advantage given to Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea has now been taken back.
A new stadium, perhaps the Premier League’s best, has been as transformative for Spurs as Arsenal’s move was for them in 2006. Matchday revenue jumped from £44million in the club’s last season at Highbury to £90.6m when making a new home at the Emirates. A big outlay — reported to be just under £400million in total — but handsome dividends.
Chelsea do not hide away from the fact their turn is coming, either at a rebuilt Stamford Bridge or a site nearby. And though Old Trafford’s 74,000 capacity might still give Manchester United a head-start on rivals, the stadium’s diminishing reputation, tight seating and an infamous leaking roof ensure a rebuild must come sooner rather than later.
Populous’ architects, who were behind both the Emirates and the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, were appointed as master planners for the redevelopment of Old Trafford alongside Legends International last year. The plans drawn up are “on hold” as billionaire businessman Sir Jim Ratcliffe finalises a deal that will see him take a 25 per cent stake in Manchester United.
“We’ve done the work with Legends to look at all the feasibility options, multiple different versions of renovations of Old Trafford and also what a new build could potentially look like,” adds Lee. “All of it focused on how we can create an amazing fan experience. Manchester United are very focused on that.”
As are every club at the drawing board. For all the criticisms it has drawn for its £3,000 season tickets, Fulham’s Riverside Stand will be finished off with a hotel, health club and rooftop pool included to maximise opportunities. Palace’s rebuilt Main Stand, proposed to open in time for the 2026-27 season, is also set to include a museum, as well as an additional 8,000 seats.
“You can make money on player transfers or commercial deals, but everything else is relatively fixed,” explains Lee. “The one big variable is how much you can make from your stadium. That’s what differentiates you as a business, to be able to go buy better players.
“The figure we always quote is at the old White Hart Lane where the spend per head was about £1.75. In the new stadium, it’s about £16. So multiply that by 50,000 general admissions and they’re pulling several million a game. It makes a big difference.”
As Manchester United, Chelsea and Newcastle United are demonstrating, these can never be considered short-term projects. Feasibility studies can take 12 months and, typically, it will take between two and three years before the design and approval process ends with a major contractor appointed. Only then can the construction begin.
Costs from that point can be shaped by all sorts of factors, including inflation, the scope of groundwork and location. Flexibility is a must, but any club embarking on a major capital project will have loosely considered the eventual price of every seat.
“There used to be a reasonable assessment on what you could build a stadium for,” says Nick Marshall, co-owner and director at KSS, the London-based architecture firm whose designs include Brighton’s Amex Stadium, Liverpool’s redeveloped Main Stand at Anfield and proposed expansions for Leicester City and Crystal Palace.
“Around 10 to 15 years ago, the aspirations of the most discerning customer were slightly lower.
“A watershed moment would probably be Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium when the expectations of the typical stadium visitor or spectator started to increase. It set a new benchmark.
“At the time, without taking inflation into account, it would cost between £2,500 and £4,000 per seat and everybody thought that was a good benchmark.
“That’s clearly not the case now. Anybody who’s aspiring to Tottenham levels of corporate hospitality in matchday usage and aspiring to be the best stadium in the world is looking at a cost of at least £10,000 a seat.”
And the higher you build, the greater the cost. The roof spans on the biggest builds can stretch up to 40 metres. Severfield, the Yorkshire-based steel company, has supplied 12,200 tonnes of structural steelwork that now forms the bones of Everton’s new stadium. Trusses used in the north and south stands measure 170 meters alone.
The cost of steel and concrete, in particular, has fluctuated dramatically in recent times. Steel is roughly 50 per cent more expensive than it was 10 years ago and another factor in the climbing costs.
“Certain materials have disproportionately risen because of availability and market pressures,” explains Marshall. “Historically, big countries were buying up steel and concrete and most of the concrete we pour has a big proportion of steel in it. So if steel goes up, the cost of concrete goes up because you’re producing reinforced slabs.
“The things you use most in the stadium are concrete and steel — if those go up in price, the cost of a stadium is increasing.
“Some of those costs have stabilised recently. There was limited availability of things like glass and aluminium, which are still a little bit on the expensive side. Typically, material costs have caused the price rises but that has been across the board.
“They disproportionately affect a stadium because of the amount that some of them use. Imagine trying to buy 600 or 700 tonnes of steel for a big roof. A small increase in the cost of a tonne of steel is spread very rapidly over a very large area. They can be affected by fluctuations in the market quite dramatically.”
A quarter of the budget will typically be spent on structural engineering work, but it is what can be found within that sets the modern stadiums apart.
There is an expectation on the level of finish, from hospitality lounges down to concourses. The technology and mechanical and electrical (M&E) systems can account for as much as a third of building costs. Piping, wiring, lighting, ventilation… all the things that were given minimal consideration a generation ago. There are also industry-driven upgrades to toilets, kiosks, turnstile software and disabled facilities.
“Services are quite high and there are big kitchens doing very large matchday preparation and they usually work for the week preceding the match,” adds Marshall.
“There is demand on the stadium pre-game from all the M&E kit. That is probably slightly disproportionate to what it would be in any other type of building other than, for example, hospitals or laboratories.
“The structures, M&E and foundations and all of the live safety systems are quite onerous in stadiums. Put all of that together and it’s about 60 to 70 per cent of it tied up in the things standing up and working before you put glazing on the front like the facade.”
A financial director will likely be sweating by this point. And that is before consideration is given to borrowing the money to make it all possible. A newly built stand or stadium will cost one figure, but the interest paid on debts to fund it can cause the expenditure to spiral upward.
The days when Tottenham could refinance its £637million stadium debt at 2.6 per cent are unlikely to return any time soon. Not when the Bank of England’s rate stands unmoved at 5.25 per cent, its highest mark since the 2008 financial crisis. There have certainly been better times to fund a major capital project.
The precise numbers behind these projects will never be known, but there is no denying where the most expensive stadium builds are still consistently found. Bigger has been better in the United States, with costs regularly soaring beyond the $1billion mark.
None have been more ambitious — or expensive — than the SoFi Stadium, home of the Los Angeles Rams and Los Angeles Chargers NFL teams. That reportedly cost $5.5billion when completed in 2020 and, with a 70,000 capacity, hosted the Super Bowl in 2022.
Then there is the Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas, the MetLife Stadium, which houses the New York Jets and the New York Giants, and the Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta. All were enormous investments north of $1billion — but with an embedded commercial strategy.
“The U.S. has had a huge impact,” explains Lee of Populous, which includes Yankee Stadium in New York among its portfolio of projects.
“There’s sniffiness, but thinking about your fans as customers when you’re designing and operating a stadium is probably the biggest change.
“We’ve been very guilty of thinking fans will be there for life coming through the turnstiles and drinking the same crap beer.
“In America, it’s a different dynamic because professional sport offers more choice. A franchise can up and move from one side of the country to another, so there’s a level of fickleness and a need to attract a customer. A stadium has to respond to that. They’ve been driven down a route of creating the best possible experience for people coming to the stadium.
“Tottenham could never turn Arsenal fans, but their competition is now the high street. That’s what they’re up against.”
And that ultimately leads Manchester United and Chelsea back to the projects they will eventually have to sanction before their homes become handicaps.
Stadiums remain the focal point of any club, the places that will bring thousands to its doors in all weathers. But they now need to be more, a platform for growth and expansion. Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Juventus have all grasped the nettle, no matter the outlays needed.
“It’s not just about creating some bowl that’s cladded in something shiny anymore,” says Lee. “Those mid-1990s stadiums, a lot of them could be anywhere in the world. You’d have no idea.
“That’s an evolution of these buildings. They’ve gone from an industrial, civic approach to a cultural one.
“They’re buildings that have genuine relevance to their communities. Stadiums are like town halls, the hearts of communities. A club wants to create amazing experiences but revenue is increasingly important in the modern game.”
Post by: dave.woodhall on November 29, 2023, 05:33:03 PM
Post by: Rory on November 29, 2023, 05:47:19 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on November 29, 2023, 06:37:31 PM
We need a stadium worthy of the biggest club in the second biggest city in the richest football economy on earth (Saudi notwithstanding). We are one of the #Great8 after all.
Post by: dave.woodhall on November 29, 2023, 07:37:48 PM
What's the record for longest post ever?
Not about to be broken.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 29, 2023, 07:50:34 PM
What's the record for longest post ever?
VillaDawg discussing Spurs' wage bill, circa 2009.
Post by: nick harper on November 29, 2023, 09:01:53 PM
There is an extension to the existing two hospitality floors overlooking the park - it's in the plans. Plus all the space that currently houses the dressing rooms is being repurposed as they are building new dressing rooms in the corner of the two stands.Hopefully that will eliminate the current arrangements where our team has to come out of the right side changing room and cross over to line up on the left.
When the stand was built, the current Away dressing room was designed to be the Home dressing room - I can't recall the reason for the switch - may have been something to do with the number of showers or something mundane like that.
I think O’Neill had it changed. He preferred the smaller changing room. Just a recollection from a tour years ago.
Post by: Chris Harte on November 30, 2023, 12:45:12 PM
Post by: LeeB on November 30, 2023, 01:53:48 PM
Intersecting piece that, thanks for posting. I heard on one of the Villa pods that NSWE are frustrated about FFP denying them the chance to pump more money in to the Villa. So the future of Villa Park probably outlined within that article.
We need a stadium worthy of the biggest club in the second biggest city in the richest football economy on earth (Saudi notwithstanding). We are one of the #Great8 after all.
Aren't we fine with FFP if it's just pumping money into infrastructure though?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on November 30, 2023, 02:10:59 PM
Intersecting piece that, thanks for posting. I heard on one of the Villa pods that NSWE are frustrated about FFP denying them the chance to pump more money in to the Villa. So the future of Villa Park probably outlined within that article.
We need a stadium worthy of the biggest club in the second biggest city in the richest football economy on earth (Saudi notwithstanding). We are one of the #Great8 after all.
Aren't we fine with FFP if it's just pumping money into infrastructure though?
Yeah, infrastructure investment doesn't count.
I think that was at the crux of one of the charges against Everton, claiming spending was on their stadium and therefore exempt, when in fact, it was not.
Post by: eamonn on November 30, 2023, 08:07:42 PM
Post by: eamonn on November 30, 2023, 10:02:21 PM
Quote
Former Everton chief executive officer Keith Wyness spoke with BBC Radio Merseyside's Giulia Bould to discuss the club's point deduction situation.
He said: "I was very surprised at the severity of the whole 10 points situation. I thought the Premier League could’ve found a way through this dispute without having to come down so hard and to open such a big can of worms.
"I think it's unfair, there was enough in there for the Premier League to have found a way through this mess and to have come to a negotiated settlement that could’ve preserved some order in terms of the financial breaches.
"Everton did admit, and I agree, that there were big issues there on Everton’s side. But nevertheless they’ve come up with a penalty like this and it does not make sense.
"Football have to find a way through this and find a sanction that is fair. Everton have pleaded guilty to the breach but I believe with it being a financial breach it should be a financial sanction."
On whether Financial Fair Play Regulations are fit for purpose, Wyness added: "I don’t think FFP has been fit for purpose right from the start.
"Different clubs have been at different times in their own development, they’ve had different owners with different financial resources and each one of those situations have found different loopholes and different ways through things.
"So, to try and put the blanket across it now is very unfair to single out Everton."
Post by: Dave P on December 11, 2023, 10:26:27 AM
Quote
Villa plans to demolish the North Stand following a Foo Fighters concert at Villa Park on Thursday, June 27, 2024. However, it is anticipated that the new North Stand will be ready by the end of May 2026 - to comply with UEFA regulations ahead of EURO 2028 - meaning that during the 2024/25 and 2025/26 seasons no fans will be housed behind the goal opposite the Holte End.
It’s a crying shame that fewer fans will be able to watch home games given how well Emery's team is playing and the success which might come to the club in the coming years, whether that’s a cup run, Champions League football or European football in any form. The North Stand currently only holds 6,537 fans and will be improved to a total of 13,074. For context, the Doug Ellis Stand currently holds 9,450 while it’s 13,561 in the Holte End and 13,109 in the Trinity Road Stand.
Knocking the stand down entirely is viewed as the most efficient way to deliver greater capacity at the stadium, instead of building behind the current structure, like other clubs have done in recent years. Building a new stand behind the current North Stand would prevent construction workers from accessing key areas of the build.
The end bay of the Trinity Road Stand, which is closest to the North Stand, will also be demolished for structural reasons. Villa are planning to merge the new North Stand with the Trinity Road Stand and the Doug Ellis Stand.
Prior to the stand being demolished, up to seven months of preparation is needed to divert drains, high voltage electrics and matchday safety systems, while hundreds of cables will also need to be replaced for broadcasting. It’s a huge undertaking before Villa can even begin building a completely new stand.
It’s crucial that Villa Park redevelops so more fans can watch their team live and the club can access better revenue streams. Emery is also looking forward to welcoming more Villa supporters inside the fortress he has built.
"We are being consistent at home with our supporters because they are coming to be with us and the stadium is full in every game we play,” he said before the win over Arsenal. "The atmosphere is positive even when we were losing against Leicester and Arsenal, even in that moment they were helping us and trying to create a strong atmosphere behind us.
"Of course, 42,000 people are supporting us in Villa Park and hopefully we can extend because there are more supporters waiting to be in the stadium. We are in this process. It is one of the best stadiums and the supporters too, like I have never had before. I want more!"
Awaiting news where us North Standers will be housed for two seasons.
Post by: Gareth on December 11, 2023, 11:16:36 AM
Post by: Ads on December 11, 2023, 11:23:57 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on December 11, 2023, 11:26:18 AM
Can see some interesting conversations as surely the season tickets holders will be relocated but how will they price it as guess there aren’t enough non season ticket seats in rest of ground at same price point as those in the North currently to house everyone?
I very much doubt the club will care if North Standers are forced to buy tix 20/30% more expensive than what they are currently.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 11, 2023, 11:33:35 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 11, 2023, 11:36:23 AM
I take it away fans will lose a section also ?
I reckon they will, am pretty sure the PL are open to discussion and practical when clubs do this sort of thing.
Post by: artvandelay on December 11, 2023, 12:25:36 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 11, 2023, 12:32:32 PM
There's the conversation.
Post by: TonyD on December 11, 2023, 12:40:37 PM
Get new builders in.
Post by: Dave P on December 11, 2023, 01:16:15 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 11, 2023, 01:18:48 PM
Post by: Stinkin_Thinkin on December 11, 2023, 01:24:10 PM
Post by: Ads on December 11, 2023, 01:29:17 PM
There's no set percentage for match day tickets.
Post by: TonyD on December 11, 2023, 01:29:43 PM
Look at Fulham and Liverpool - easily a two-year build - especially with 7 months of utility diversions and full demolition of the existing stand - then hosting matches in the middle of a building site.Just because Fulham and Liverpool are also rubbish doesn’t mean another club cannot build something quicker.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 11, 2023, 01:34:17 PM
Post by: Ads on December 11, 2023, 01:44:18 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 11, 2023, 02:00:55 PM
The planning permission on the BCC portal should evidence it. Transport conditions are effectively for the club to "see what we can do". The Witton station upgrade is going to be necessary from a logistics point of view, but its irrelevant to the planning permission for the build.
Cheers Ads.
Post by: Dave P on December 11, 2023, 03:00:37 PM
Post by: Ads on December 11, 2023, 03:12:45 PM
Post by: Concrete Tom on December 11, 2023, 03:17:38 PM
Look at Fulham and Liverpool - easily a two-year build - especially with 7 months of utility diversions and full demolition of the existing stand - then hosting matches in the middle of a building site.
Both were not simple builds...
Liverpool built their new stand around the existing one. In doing so, they kept the existing stand open for longer but have the added complexities of managing site safety alongside public access.
Fulham have a very limited site due to the Thames. They needed specialist equipment to excavate under water, build a new river wall, and floating barge cranes etc to build.
The new North stand being a demolish and rebuild will be simple in comparison.
Post by: London Villan on December 11, 2023, 03:47:45 PM
The Holte in comparison was a simple build and cost around £6m ( the Holte Suite was added later from what i can remember). Even with inflation, the cost of the new stand is massive compared to that - which reflects the complexity and the facilities.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 11, 2023, 04:07:47 PM
If we're losing a stand for 2 seasons, how many match day tickets will be available assuming all season ticket holders renew?
Also, assuming North Stand season ticket holders will be moved to spare seats in one of the other stands, this could cause another pricing uproar.
How are fans going to react if they're forced to front up for higher price seating in one of other stands? And on the flipside, if the club let them move to say Trinity Road at North Stand prices, how will Trinity Road season ticket holders react to that! Oh boy!
Post by: claret+blue ed on December 11, 2023, 04:28:36 PM
Will this affect any seating in the Trinity Road stand, or is the building work entirely 'behind the scenes' here?I don't think that the Trinity Road ST's should react at all, it's not that the North Stand ST's have any choice in it and they probably wouldn't want to go in the Trinity if they had a choice
If we're losing a stand for 2 seasons, how many match day tickets will be available assuming all season ticket holders renew?
Also, assuming North Stand season ticket holders will be moved to spare seats in one of the other stands, this could cause another pricing uproar.
How are fans going to react if they're forced to front up for higher price seating in one of other stands? And on the flipside, if the club let them move to say Trinity Road at North Stand prices, how will Trinity Road season ticket holders react to that! Oh boy!
I also hope the Club don't charge them any more for having to move
Post by: chrisw1 on December 11, 2023, 04:48:20 PM
I expect that I’ll get first refusal in the new stand when it is built. I would also want to pay north stand (tier 4) prices wherever I’m relocated for 2 years, but I doubt that will happen.I don't think you will be. The new North will be an expensive stand with the best facilities in the ground I'd assume. Whilst you'll probably have first refusal it won't be at concessionary rates. I think you can expect to pay at least the equivalent of the Holte.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 11, 2023, 04:48:38 PM
Anyone who thinks they won’t hasn’t been paying attention much lately.
And to be honest, in this case they’re going to be entitled to do so.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 11, 2023, 05:06:55 PM
Post by: Ads on December 11, 2023, 05:25:33 PM
Post by: Gareth on December 11, 2023, 06:07:52 PM
Of course they’ll charge Trinity Road prices for North Stand relocaters.
Anyone who thinks they won’t hasn’t been paying attention much lately.
And to be honest, in this case they’re going to be entitled to do so.
I don’t think season ticket holders in the North currently are going to agree that the club are ‘entitled’ because the club are the ones doing the moving.
Agree with everything else though….i suspect the upshot will be well above inflation rises across the stadium & those in the North will get double whammy & the club will give zero effs as every non renewer will give them an extra seat to sell match by match for more.
Post by: Lucky Eddie on December 11, 2023, 06:37:28 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 11, 2023, 06:42:37 PM
What on earth is "the vomitory' centred on rows 21 to 24 of B7?
It's for the people who overdo the free drinks when enjoying our 'Premium Experiences'.
Post by: The Moose on December 11, 2023, 06:44:18 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 11, 2023, 06:50:25 PM
Of course they’ll charge Trinity Road prices for North Stand relocaters.
Anyone who thinks they won’t hasn’t been paying attention much lately.
And to be honest, in this case they’re going to be entitled to do so.
I don’t think season ticket holders in the North currently are going to agree that the club are ‘entitled’ because the club are the ones doing the moving.
Agree with everything else though….i suspect the upshot will be well above inflation rises across the stadium & those in the North will get double whammy & the club will give zero effs as every non renewer will give them an extra seat to sell match by match for more.
I don't see why they shouldn't charge more tbh - the seats in the North are cheaper because the experience of that stand is so piss poor. As someone mentioned, them moving them to the Trinity at North Stand prices would open up a load of other questions re people paying full whack, but on top of that, they'd be getting the high end experience at the low end price.
I like our owners very much indeed, they've got tons right, but they also seem to be extremely unsentimental on things like this, so there's going to be no chance.
And as you said, also the ne North STand is going to be a premium experience (Jesus, can't believe i just used that term) and not a cheap and cheerful one.
Post by: algy on December 11, 2023, 07:20:25 PM
What on earth is "the vomitory' centred on rows 21 to 24 of B7?Wasn't the Vomit Tory involved in that partygate thing?
Post by: algy on December 11, 2023, 07:24:11 PM
Yeah, expecting them to be in line with the expensive bits of the Trinity Road stand & the Terrace View/Lower Grounds Splitters seats.Of course they’ll charge Trinity Road prices for North Stand relocaters.
Anyone who thinks they won’t hasn’t been paying attention much lately.
And to be honest, in this case they’re going to be entitled to do so.
I don’t think season ticket holders in the North currently are going to agree that the club are ‘entitled’ because the club are the ones doing the moving.
Agree with everything else though….i suspect the upshot will be well above inflation rises across the stadium & those in the North will get double whammy & the club will give zero effs as every non renewer will give them an extra seat to sell match by match for more.
I don't see why they shouldn't charge more tbh - the seats in the North are cheaper because the experience of that stand is so piss poor. As someone mentioned, them moving them to the Trinity at North Stand prices would open up a load of other questions re people paying full whack, but on top of that, they'd be getting the high end experience at the low end price.
I like our owners very much indeed, they've got tons right, but they also seem to be extremely unsentimental on things like this, so there's going to be no chance.
And as you said, also the ne North STand is going to be a premium experience (Jesus, can't believe i just used that term) and not a cheap and cheerful one.
Though to be fair I think there's a chance getting a Lower Grounds bundle might end up being better used next season when there's fewer seats available, specially given how the club's playing
Post by: frank black on December 13, 2023, 11:22:59 AM
It’ll be interesting to see if overall season ticket prices get hikes and whether they press ahead with the planned corporate packages for behind the dugout… From a selfish perspective I hope they’ll shelve this idea, at least until the new stand is complete. Last thing they need is hundreds of trinity road folks to fit in elsewhere on top of the North standers.
Post by: AV82EC on December 13, 2023, 12:38:18 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on December 14, 2023, 01:47:48 PM
We can all argue about the prices of the remaining stands, but the club is clearly determined to start bridging the revenue gap with the clubs we're hoping to compete with. They could be a bit more sensitive with the way they go about it and they are fortunate that Unai is bailing with them out to some extent with the superb home form. But I think we can all see the direction of travel.
Post by: artvandelay on December 14, 2023, 01:55:29 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 14, 2023, 01:57:28 PM
I don't see why anyone in the 'new' North Stand should get cheaper tickets than the Holte End, considering the (presumably) superior experience in there versus the 30 year old one opposite?
There's not much chance they will.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 14, 2023, 02:35:13 PM
Non I'd think. I think it will be heavily corporate and a 'premium' stand.I don't see why anyone in the 'new' North Stand should get cheaper tickets than the Holte End, considering the (presumably) superior experience in there versus the 30 year old one opposite?
There's not much chance they will.
Post by: London Villan on December 14, 2023, 03:45:27 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on December 18, 2023, 10:28:04 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 18, 2023, 11:42:01 PM
I agree with Paulie really. The North Stand is being knocked down. Those cheap seats will be gone forever. People with seats there will have an opportunity to buy seats elsewhere in the ground at the prevailing rates. I'm not that sure it's reasonable to expect anything else?
We can all argue about the prices of the remaining stands, but the club is clearly determined to start bridging the revenue gap with the clubs we're hoping to compete with. They could be a bit more sensitive with the way they go about it and they are fortunate that Unai is bailing with them out to some extent with the superb home form. But I think we can all see the direction of travel.
They're not much cheaper, if cheaper at all, than the Holte End tickets now. £40.50 for lower North Stand against Sheffield United and Burnley.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 18, 2023, 11:47:12 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 18, 2023, 11:56:07 PM
The North Stand prices got racheted up this season on the premise that you'll have first dibs on the new ones and the view's the same as from the Holte End.
And last season too, my season ticket is nearly double what is was when we came up.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 05:23:34 AM
Post by: Nev on December 19, 2023, 07:14:04 AM
According to Villa website all tickets for the Terrace View and Lower Grounds against Burnley are sold out
I wouldn't be surprised given the time of year. People buying tickets as a present, having a day out etc
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 10:46:57 AM
But has anyone been there?
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 10:49:35 AM
According to Villa website all tickets for the Terrace View and Lower Grounds against Burnley are sold out
I wouldn't be surprised given the time of year. People buying tickets as a present, having a day out etc
Nothing to do with wanting to see a winning team go top of the table then?
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 10:57:58 AM
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 11:51:45 AM
You'd think people would be sick of stuffing themselves full of beige buffet food by then.But isn’t it steet food ?
Post by: Smirker on December 19, 2023, 11:54:43 AM
Breaking: Chris Heck has paused plans to redevelop Villa Park.
#AVFC's president of business operations says it is currently a "bad idea" to demolish the North Stand. It would have reduced Villa Park's capacity to 36,000 from the start of next season and until 2025/2026.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 11:54:43 AM
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 11:55:46 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 11:57:20 AM
Post by: AV82EC on December 19, 2023, 11:57:42 AM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 12:02:09 PM
Just read Chris Heck has put the plans to demolish the North Stand on hold.
John Townley has just said that on Twitter. What the fucking hell? Has Heck just released his pathetic badge to deflect from the real news? What a start this twat has had to his Villa career!
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:02:53 PM
- No redevelopment at all, despite the need for it. Could see the club doing this if CL revenues are imminent.
- They can redevelop the stand without demolishing it. No idea how, but Liverpool have just done similar.
- They've costed a new ground and it's cheaper in the long run. Any HS2 land going begging?
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 12:03:56 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 12:04:04 PM
Post by: AV82EC on December 19, 2023, 12:04:27 PM
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:06:20 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 12:06:59 PM
That new investment for infrastructure screams new ground to me. Huge problems getting decent transportation to and from VP, and maybe they've just decided to go for it.
You make a good point.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 12:08:19 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 12:08:27 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 12:08:28 PM
That new investment for infrastructure screams new ground to me. Huge problems getting decent transportation to and from VP, and maybe they've just decided to go for it.
That's my fear as well.
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 12:08:42 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 12:08:50 PM
Leaves three options imo:
- No redevelopment at all, despite the need for it. Could see the club doing this if CL revenues are imminent.
- They can redevelop the stand without demolishing it. No idea how, but Liverpool have just done similar.
- They've costed a new ground and it's cheaper in the long run. Any HS2 land going begging?
In order:
- But Champions League revenues with an extra 10,000 people paying them in a couple of years?
- They've already said that it's too dangerous and logisitically impossible with all the cables and pipes etc
- I wouldn't be opposed to that, but you're then looking at a time line of at least 8-12 years to find a site, get plans drawn up, do the consultation etc then get it built etc. I wonder if that's what this new investement partner is lined up for?
Post by: Monty on December 19, 2023, 12:10:02 PM
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 12:10:30 PM
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:14:11 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 12:14:39 PM
Please god not the Birmingham Wheels site...
I know, but it would be funny and it is in the original boundary of Aston.
I'm not down with moving by the way.
Post by: UK Redsox on December 19, 2023, 12:15:35 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 12:15:57 PM
The owners may be seeing that even if we get in the CL for a few seasons, without a massive increase in matchday revenue we are still going to be well behind. A new stadium may be the most likely way of joining that club.
I really expect Newcastle to do the same at some point, only I wouldn't be surprised if they get moved down south to somewhere more attractive for tourist money.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 12:16:36 PM
- They've already said that it's too dangerous and logisitically impossible with all the cables and pipes etc
Didn't they say that it would just take longer, and hence more expensive, by doing it that way. Maybe they are eyeing any possible CL money and its now a different decision?
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 12:16:55 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 12:18:06 PM
- They've already said that it's too dangerous and logisitically impossible with all the cables and pipes etc
Didn't they say that it would just take longer, and hence more expensive, by doing it that way. Maybe they are eyeing any possible CL money and its now a different decision?
Potentially. If they're looking at bolstering the squad, FFP is going to be a prime concern, and maybe they now want every penny of matchday revenue to go bigger than we planned.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 19, 2023, 12:21:14 PM
I'd rather sit in 2 hours of traffic to walk up Witton Road, smelling burgers and hotdogs with the glorious Holte End in the distance any day, than take a turn off the motorway into some tarmacced plateau servicing a soulless, plastic bowl.
Really starting to take a dislike to this new guy. If being successful means that we have to set light to our history, then I'd rather not thanks.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:21:39 PM
Post by: Towser on December 19, 2023, 12:23:08 PM
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 12:23:12 PM
I love Villa Park. Its majestic. A huge new 25k single tiered Holte would be quite persuasive to me mind.
Post by: itbrvilla on December 19, 2023, 12:23:36 PM
Quote
Aston Villa’s president of football operations, Chris Heck, has revealed the club have paused plans to redevelop Villa Park.
Villa had planned to demolish the North Stand following a Foo Fighters concert at Villa Park next June before building an entirely new stand which would connect with the Trinity Road Stand and the Doug Ellis Stand. Heck views this as a "bad idea" considering it would mean the stadium's capacity would drop to 36,000 from the start of next season and until 2025/26.
The plans were due to increase the capacity at the stadium to 50,000, while knocking the North Stand down was viewed as the most efficient way to deliver greater capacity at the stadium, instead of building behind the current structure.
"The North Stand [rebuild] is a massive project," Heck told Villa TV. "When I came in it was right in front of me. There were extremely ambitious ideas and a lot of it was thoughtful.
"What I will say is this. Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast. It was important that we took a step back and re-evaluate what is best for our fans.
"I mention this with the transportation, I mention this with the parking situation. What I would also mention is that we have 42,000 plus seats. It is a substantial amount. To add on 10,000 right now doesn’t seem practical to me and I will tell you why.
"Number one, we talk about Villa Park being a fortress. It is true. There is no better home advantage than at Villa Park and I think it would be a bad idea to tear down one of the stands for a two year period while we are playing like we are. I think that going forward, everything should be about all fans and not just one particular stand."
Asked what redevelopment plans will go ahead, Heck said: "We are going to start renovating the Warehouse area. That is a massive space that we think can be a hospitality zone and an entertainment zone for 3,000 fans. Not only pre-game and post-game, but also for concerts and other shows that we have at Villa Park.
"We are going to do a lot of renovation at Bodymoor Heath to continue building our academy, our womens programme , to build more for our first-team and be more attractive to bring in talent around the world.
"Those components are really important. There is another one. We will enhance out technology and some of the practical facilities at Villa Park in all four stands. Don’t be surprised if you see our superstore double in size this summer as we are going to be very, very active with merchandising."
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:24:27 PM
One thing to be said about that ground though: it looks like a pain to get to.
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 12:25:21 PM
No way Brum would want to miss out on the Euros. Unless Heck is thinking beyond that to a new stadium and not just a top up of VP…bigger commercial opportunities with a showcase stadium.
Post by: Simon Page on December 19, 2023, 12:27:58 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 12:28:36 PM
I'm not mad keen on a move, but I have to say that new Everton ground looks impressive up close, in a really eye-catching setting. No way they could have done it in their current location.
One thing to be said about that ground though: it looks like a pain to get to.
It will be, Liverpool is as bad as Brum in terms of getting around.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 12:28:41 PM
No seat additions because "fans", but a double size merchandise shop & another area to charge £100 for substandard street food...
I really dislike Chris Heck.
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 12:30:25 PM
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 12:32:07 PM
I'm not mad keen on a move, but I have to say that new Everton ground looks impressive up close, in a really eye-catching setting. No way they could have done it in their current location.
One thing to be said about that ground though: it looks like a pain to get to.
It will be, Liverpool is as bad as Brum in terms of getting around.
Easily walkable from the city centre.
If you're driving, go to Newton le Willows and train to Lime Street and onto James Street or Moorfields. Shit tonne of good pubs round there and then about a 10/15 minute walk up to BMD. Will be like Newcastle away.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 12:32:50 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 12:35:07 PM
Post by: LeeS on December 19, 2023, 12:35:17 PM
Post by: BC Villain on December 19, 2023, 12:35:24 PM
Villa Park is what makes us unique, and is the one ever present as new generations of fans come along and old generations depart to that Holte End in the sky.
I'd rather sit in 2 hours of traffic to walk up Witton Road, smelling burgers and hotdogs with the glorious Holte End in the distance any day, than take a turn off the motorway into some tarmacced plateau servicing a soulless, plastic bowl.
Really starting to take a dislike to this new guy. If being successful means that we have to set light to our history, then I'd rather not thanks.
Ultimately he will be driven by what makes the most money, not by what is more historic
Post by: jon collett on December 19, 2023, 12:35:56 PM
I wonder if it’s just posturing as cannot get assurances re infrastructure, transport….
No way Brum would want to miss out on the Euros. Unless Heck is thinking beyond that to a new stadium and not just a top up of VP…bigger commercial opportunities with a showcase stadium.
I think this is the one hope.
That he is deliberately playing at being ignorant and out of his depth.
And that behind it all is an ingenious strategy to get things moving!
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 12:38:39 PM
What are we going to do about it? What sort of nutter would get off the Villa bus now? You've had years of shite. He knows this, he doesn't care or if he does, is calculated enough to roll on anyway.
Post by: Billy Walker on December 19, 2023, 12:38:44 PM
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 19, 2023, 12:39:51 PM
His interview reminded me of a speech I was once witness to before a round of redundancies were announced. I took redundancy.
Nailed it - I've been in meetings like this too. On the money, SE!
Really don't like how he glossed over stopping the North Stand development either. So what exactly IS the plan regarding capacity going forward then Mr by'eck??
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 12:41:57 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 19, 2023, 12:43:17 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 12:44:41 PM
He doesn't strike me as somebody out their depth. He strikes me as somebody that gives not a single fuck; he's on a mission and that is to generate cash, even if it means pissing us off.
What are we going to do about it? What sort of nutter would get off the Villa bus now? You've had years of shite. He knows this, he doesn't care or if he does, is calculated enough to roll on anyway.
It's a load of vision-less, short term drivel though. Using the current good run of form at home as an excuse, the prick. The thing is with all investments, is that they require a degree of short term pain in return for the long term benefit. You pay into a pension, you have less cash each month to spend now, but when you retire you have a pension pot to full back on. So yes, a reduced capacity at Villa Park for a couple of years, but then a 50,000 capacity ground for every year thereafter.
"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 12:44:53 PM
Post by: Villatillidie25 on December 19, 2023, 12:45:03 PM
Post by: AV82EC on December 19, 2023, 12:45:10 PM
His interview reminded me of a speech I was once witness to before a round of redundancies were announced. I took redundancy.
Nailed it - I've been in meetings like this too. On the money, SE!
Really don't like how he glossed over stopping the North Stand development either. So what exactly IS the plan regarding capacity going forward then Mr by'eck??
I think the fact its been said that only 5,000 people have actually purchased a ticket in the last few years in a 30k ST waiting list maybe gives us a clue as to potential take up of an extra 10,000 seats? Added to a rather lukewarm response to TV and UG has maybe made him realise the NS development isn't necessarily the best investment at this stage and a more considered approach to increasing capacity is required.
Either that or we're looking at a new ground.
Post by: David_Nab on December 19, 2023, 12:45:32 PM
If we commend NSWE for almost everything they do then this decision ultimately is theirs also. Or at minimum it has their blessing. I can see the rationale behind this with the surrounding infrastructure issues not resolved. And I wonder if this is a veiled threat to the local government to make things happen with the station or financing also.
Seems like that to me
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 12:46:01 PM
And I wonder if this is a veiled threat to the local government to make things happen with the station or financing also.
Absolutely no chance of that whatsoever. You say things like that in private, and you don't make announcements like this and then go back on them.
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 12:47:21 PM
Is us having Euro Champ games dependent on us upping the capacity?
To be honest, I couldn't give a shite about hosting those games as I certainly won't go.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on December 19, 2023, 12:47:40 PM
His interview reminded me of a speech I was once witness to before a round of redundancies were announced. I took redundancy.
Nailed it - I've been in meetings like this too. On the money, SE!
Really don't like how he glossed over stopping the North Stand development either. So what exactly IS the plan regarding capacity going forward then Mr by'eck??
Comcast Arena.
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 12:47:55 PM
Post by: Nev on December 19, 2023, 12:48:01 PM
I shall enjoy every minute at Villa Park while we still have it.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:50:58 PM
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 12:52:18 PM
Do nowt as we may get CL football???
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 12:52:19 PM
Is us having Euro Champ games dependent on us upping the capacity?
To be honest, I couldn't give a shite about hosting those games as I certainly won't go.
Neither will I but having this tournament in the UK without games here would leave us with egg on our faces. We are clearly not seeing the bigger plan, and we are not seeing it because he didn't take the opportunity to set it out.
Post by: jon collett on December 19, 2023, 12:52:43 PM
It's a load of vision-less, short term drivel though. Using the current good run of form at home as an excuse, the prick. The thing is with all investments, is that they require a degree of short term pain in return for the long term benefit. You pay into a pension, you have less cash each month to spend now, but when you retire you have a pension pot to full back on. So yes, a reduced capacity at Villa Park for a couple of years, but then a 50,000 capacity ground for every year thereafter.
"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."
Yep this is why i said he gave the impression of no strategy, no understanding and no competence.
I think we have to hope this is some kind of gambit.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 12:53:02 PM
Does that rule us out of the EC though? All stadiums need to be ready two years before the event, so it's hard to see how we manage this.
I am also wondering if they're thinking of a new stadium / total rebuild.
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 12:55:01 PM
He doesn't strike me as somebody out their depth. He strikes me as somebody that gives not a single fuck; he's on a mission and that is to generate cash, even if it means pissing us off.
What are we going to do about it? What sort of nutter would get off the Villa bus now? You've had years of shite. He knows this, he doesn't care or if he does, is calculated enough to roll on anyway.
It's a load of vision-less, short term drivel though. Using the current good run of form at home as an excuse, the prick. The thing is with all investments, is that they require a degree of short term pain in return for the long term benefit. You pay into a pension, you have less cash each month to spend now, but when you retire you have a pension pot to full back on. So yes, a reduced capacity at Villa Park for a couple of years, but then a 50,000 capacity ground for every year thereafter.
"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit."
I get that and I think he's not told us everything or close to everything. But the 3 sides for 2 years is crap and I'd definitely be in favour of another means of construction for the new North that gives us some fans behind the goal.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 19, 2023, 12:55:35 PM
I would hope this would rule out a move away from VP.
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 12:56:27 PM
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 12:57:35 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 12:58:18 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 12:59:42 PM
Townley says he understands there are no plans to move from VP. But this time yesterday we all thought there were plans to demolish the North Stand and rebuild it.
There aren't any real plans at all, seemingly. A new pub and facilities at Bodymoor? Yep, that's going to help cement our place in the elite of European football.
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 01:01:57 PM
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
Post by: KevinGage on December 19, 2023, 01:05:44 PM
Our upturn has been built on that home form and playing on a building site would impact that, as good as Emery is.
It might also be that the plans currently on Heck's desk are effectively Purslow's and he believes he can do it better. That could be reconfigured North Stand following the Anfield Road template so fans can partly occupy the space during the rebuild. Or a shiny new Witton Lane.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 01:05:53 PM
Wow, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the usual over-reactions.
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
One thing I've noticed about Heck so far is that there's been quite a lot of "stopping doing stuff" and not very much of "We're doing this instead".
I take his point about demolishing the north stand whilst having a massive favourable turnaround in what is on the pitch, that makes sense, but it would have been much, much better if he'd described what we were going to do instead.
You've told us what we are not doing, now tell us what we ARE doing.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 01:07:23 PM
Wow, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the usual over-reactions.
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
One thing I've noticed about Heck so far is that there's been quite a lot of "stopping doing stuff" and not very much of "We're doing this instead".
I take his point about demolishing the north stand whilst having a massive favourable turnaround in what is on the pitch, that makes sense, but it would have been much, much better if he'd described what we were going to do instead.
You've told us what we are not doing, now tell us what we ARE doing.
Exactly. You can't blame people jumping to conclusions when certainty is replaced with nothing.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 19, 2023, 01:08:17 PM
"I don't want problems, I want solutions", as an old manager of mine used to boom.Wow, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the usual over-reactions.
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
One thing I've noticed about Heck so far is that there's been quite a lot of "stopping doing stuff" and not very much of "We're doing this instead".
I take his point about demolishing the north stand whilst having a massive favourable turnaround in what is on the pitch, that makes sense, but it would have been much, much better if he'd described what we were going to do instead.
You've told us what we are not doing, now tell us what we ARE doing.
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 01:08:30 PM
Either they haven’t got enough cash.
Or a ground move.
Post by: john2710 on December 19, 2023, 01:08:53 PM
Is this a reassessment / pause on what was propossed when we were a mid-table club with a dream of reaching the top 6? Now, with Emery we're there & anything is possible.
I think this statement & the low cost upgrades around the existing stadium makes the possibility of a new stadium a very real prospect. I want what's best for Aston Villa but leaving Villa Park for the last time would be heartbreaking.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 01:09:00 PM
Agree.Wow, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the usual over-reactions.
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
One thing I've noticed about Heck so far is that there's been quite a lot of "stopping doing stuff" and not very much of "We're doing this instead".
I take his point about demolishing the north stand whilst having a massive favourable turnaround in what is on the pitch, that makes sense, but it would have been much, much better if he'd described what we were going to do instead.
You've told us what we are not doing, now tell us what we ARE doing.
Not a lot by the sounds of it.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 01:09:12 PM
I love Villa Park. But I do think if we are going to regain our place amongst the big boys we're going to need a new ground eventually.
We love our history, but then we already love Villa. Is our history going to attract the next few generations who compare us to clubs who now have much more trophies and much better stadiums?
Plus, our stadium has very little history left already now. It's 70s - 00s, aside from the location.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:09:14 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 01:09:15 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 19, 2023, 01:09:47 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:11:05 PM
Seems strange thinking to go with standing still is better than minus 6-7k for 2 years and then having plus 8k and much better hospitality for eternity. Well it does to me when all thinking seems to be about generating revenue long term.
Well, exactly. It's not rocket science.
Post by: itbrvilla on December 19, 2023, 01:11:58 PM
Strange news.Wasn't an investment partner announced in the last week or so? All very odd.
Either they haven’t got enough cash.
Or a ground move.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 01:12:25 PM
Plus, our stadium has very little history left already now. It's 70s - 00s, aside from the location.
It's surprising how many away fans don't realise this.
I was listening to a football podcast recently and they discussed Villa Park, and the one guy said he was going there in a few weeks and he was really excited as it's such a historic ground etc etc, and then specifically said he was looking forward to seeing Archibald Leitch's work.
Good luck with that.
I also think a lot of away fans think the rear of the Holte End is 100 years old and a remnant of a historic part of the ground which has survived the years.
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 01:12:38 PM
Post by: Clampy on December 19, 2023, 01:12:50 PM
Would it be surprising that this is put on hold so we don’t have a reduced capacity headed into what might be CL football? It would be shit to finally get there and only have three stands in place. So this decisions avoids that but also buys a little more time to get everything right around the ground as well the stand itself.
I think that's what it is but who knows?
Post by: Simon Page on December 19, 2023, 01:13:07 PM
His interview reminded me of a speech I was once witness to before a round of redundancies were announced. I took redundancy.
We're thrilled to announce an exciting vision of future possibilities with opportunity at the core and a focus on customer experience while valuing our most precious assets: YOU!
Security?
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 01:13:39 PM
Wow, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the usual over-reactions.
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
One thing I've noticed about Heck so far is that there's been quite a lot of "stopping doing stuff" and not very much of "We're doing this instead".
I take his point about demolishing the north stand whilst having a massive favourable turnaround in what is on the pitch, that makes sense, but it would have been much, much better if he'd described what we were going to do instead.
You've told us what we are not doing, now tell us what we ARE doing.
Yes, I said this a couple of pages back. The comms has been awful.
Post by: nick harper on December 19, 2023, 01:13:53 PM
Wow, there is a lot of jumping to conclusions and the usual over-reactions.
I can't see too much to get upset about in what he said there, using the current form as a reason might be a little in the now, but nothing too egregious there.
One thing I've noticed about Heck so far is that there's been quite a lot of "stopping doing stuff" and not very much of "We're doing this instead".
I take his point about demolishing the north stand whilst having a massive favourable turnaround in what is on the pitch, that makes sense, but it would have been much, much better if he'd described what we were going to do instead.
You've told us what we are not doing, now tell us what we ARE doing.
Yes, agree with this. It just feels deflating. Priority is to double the size of the store, add another corporate venue (great), and improve facilities at Bodymoor, which is fine but makes no difference to the fans. Meanwhile, the configuration of the North Stand means continued cramped legroom, concourse space and a stand no longer fit for the 21st century. Ditto Witton Lane.
I don’t have any doubt we’d fill 50,000. Wes Ham have doubled their attendance average. Everton will add another 15,000. He needs to come up with a bigger vision, and share it quickly.
Post by: Richard E on December 19, 2023, 01:14:25 PM
I think the idea is to wait until we're shit again before knocking down the North Stand.
You mean we’re stuck with the North Stand forever?!?
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:14:27 PM
Would it be surprising that this is put on hold so we don’t have a reduced capacity headed into what might be CL football? It would be shit to finally get there and only have three stands in place. So this decisions avoids that but also buys a little more time to get everything right around the ground as well the stand itself.
That's such a piss poor excuse though. We don't just want Champions League for one year, we want it every year. There's never going to be a good time to knock down a stand, but as I said earlier, all investments require short term pain. We haven't achieved Champions League football yet, anyway, and if we do, then we could go out of the group stage at the first hurdle. Is it really worth holding back on a major redevelopment for the sake of a possible three extra games?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 01:15:11 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 01:15:54 PM
Once the first swing of the wrecking ball makes contact with the North Stand, it'll be too late, we'll realistically be committing to the current location for the long term.
I am also wondering if they see the cash-strapped council needing to sell assets and are looking at the amount of space they might buy in Aston Park and thinking about rebuilding there, or at least buying the space to have options.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 01:16:07 PM
So not telling us anything does not really fit with the fans are at the centre of everything.
I have spent a lot of time doing business with Americans and they all sound like that when they are avoiding telling you the truth.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 01:17:06 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 01:19:17 PM
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 01:20:02 PM
I think this is about keeping their options open and seeing what happens the next season or two. If we end up winning the league / qualifying for and doing well in the Champions League then maybe that changes the question in terms of what we want to do next.
Once the first swing of the wrecking ball makes contact with the North Stand, it'll be too late, we'll realistically be committing to the current location for the long term.
Some common sense.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 19, 2023, 01:22:10 PM
To my addled mind, the only comparable ground to VP was Highbury. The Arsenal fans seem happy enough with their airport lounge. We're not Arsenal fans though, and I'd fucking hate to have anything similar.
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
The difference there is that they moved about 200 yards so you still had the same pre-match rituals and they also discovered forty thousand new fans who had no attachment to Highbury.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:23:21 PM
To my addled mind, the only comparable ground to VP was Highbury. The Arsenal fans seem happy enough with their airport lounge. We're not Arsenal fans though, and I'd fucking hate to have anything similar.
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
It's nearly 20 years old now, The Emirates, a bit younger than the Trinity and the Holte. I like the setting of Villa Park next to the Hall, but that's about it. It's four stands cobbled together, and the facilities in most of them are dire. I'd take this decision if we were going to move, but I'd say there's no chance of that. If he doesn't want to build 10,000 extra seats, he certainly isn't going to want to build a brand new stadium.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 01:24:20 PM
To my addled mind, the only comparable ground to VP was Highbury. The Arsenal fans seem happy enough with their airport lounge. We're not Arsenal fans though, and I'd fucking hate to have anything similar.
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
The difference there is that they moved about 200 yards so you still had the same pre-match rituals and they also discovered forty thousand new fans who had no attachment to Highbury.
Surely we'd be the same (and if we did something in Aston Park it'd be less than 200 yards?!)
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 01:24:36 PM
I think the idea is to wait until we're shit again before knocking down the North Stand.
You mean we’re stuck with the North Stand forever?!?
Either that or we give Tony Xia a call. The Chinese would have the new stand built in a weekend.
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 01:25:30 PM
To my addled mind, the only comparable ground to VP was Highbury. The Arsenal fans seem happy enough with their airport lounge. We're not Arsenal fans though, and I'd fucking hate to have anything similar.
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
It's nearly 20 years old now, The Emirates, a bit younger than the Trinity and the Holte. I like the setting of Villa Park next to the Hall, but that's about it. It's four stands cobbled together, and the facilities in most of them are dire. I'd take this decision if we were going to move, but I'd say there's no chance of that. If he doesn't want to build 10,000 extra seats, he certainly isn't going to want to build a brand new stadium.
The new stadiums are not about the extra seats though really, it's all about the hospitality.
Post by: dorsetvillian on December 19, 2023, 01:25:32 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 01:25:40 PM
To my addled mind, the only comparable ground to VP was Highbury. The Arsenal fans seem happy enough with their airport lounge. We're not Arsenal fans though, and I'd fucking hate to have anything similar.
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
It's nearly 20 years old now, The Emirates, a bit younger than the Trinity and the Holte. I like the setting of Villa Park next to the Hall, but that's about it. It's four stands cobbled together, and the facilities in most of them are dire. I'd take this decision if we were going to move, but I'd say there's no chance of that. If he doesn't want to build 10,000 extra seats, he certainly isn't going to want to build a brand new stadium.
Our new 'infrastructure partner' makes me think that's exactly what's going to happen.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:25:46 PM
To my addled mind, the only comparable ground to VP was Highbury. The Arsenal fans seem happy enough with their airport lounge. We're not Arsenal fans though, and I'd fucking hate to have anything similar.
Then again, I don't go very often so I'd defer to those who do.
The difference there is that they moved about 200 yards so you still had the same pre-match rituals and they also discovered forty thousand new fans who had no attachment to Highbury.
It's easier to have meaningful pre-match rituals when you're situated in London where they are, with the hundreds of pubs and restaurants nearby, not to mention two tube stations. For most Villa fans, it means having a drink nowhere near the ground then struggling to get home afterwards.
Post by: darren woolley on December 19, 2023, 01:26:14 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on December 19, 2023, 01:26:22 PM
I think the hyperbole about us moving is just that.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 01:26:53 PM
You can easily chuck £500m at Villa Park and you'll still be compromising and restricted by the footprint and neighbours and transport.
If £700-800m build you a new one where you can have exactly what you want and will generate you a great deal of extra revenue, you'd have to consider it.
This article in The Athletic states that Spurs gate receipts jumped from £48m to £108m and Arsenals went from £44m to £90m in 2006 when they moved. I know, that's in that London... but that's an attractive justification for a new build.
https://theathletic.com/5094612/2023/11/29/football-stadiums-cost-expensive/ (https://theathletic.com/5094612/2023/11/29/football-stadiums-cost-expensive/)
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:27:21 PM
The new stadiums are not about the extra seats though really, it's all about the hospitality.
It's about both.
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on December 19, 2023, 01:28:17 PM
Would rather stick to Villa Park than do that.
If you are planning to build a new stadium, it needs to be unique and not an identikit stadium. Tottenham and proposed Everton stadium for example.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 01:34:44 PM
I think Arsenal's ground is shite, a soulless bowl. Just a bigger version of Reading's ground.
Would rather stick to Villa Park than do that.
If you are planning to build a new stadium, it needs to be unique and not an identikit stadium. Tottenham and proposed Everton stadium for example.
The Emirates and West Ham's ground are the worst places I've watched football, apart from, as you say, Reading. I ended up sharing a cab with some Reading fans when we played them in the last season in the Championship (0-0 Tyrone trod on the fella's face). I was deliberately being very respectful, not wanting to be the 'big club' fan. I can't remember what comment prompted me to do so, but I eventually had to say, "well yeah, but you're fucking Reading and we're Aston Villa!" It quietened down a bit after that, to my embarrassment.
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 19, 2023, 01:35:44 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 01:45:55 PM
I think Arsenal's ground is shite, a soulless bowl. Just a bigger version of Reading's ground.
Would rather stick to Villa Park than do that.
If you are planning to build a new stadium, it needs to be unique and not an identikit stadium. Tottenham and proposed Everton stadium for example.
The Emirates and West Ham's ground are the worst places I've watched football, apart from, as you say, Reading. I ended up sharing a cab with some Reading fans when we played them in the last season in the Championship (0-0 Tyrone trod on the fella's face). I was deliberately being very respectful, not wanting to be the 'big club' fan. I can't remember what comment prompted me to do so, but I eventually had to say, "well yeah, but you're fucking Reading and we're Aston Villa!" It quietened down a bit after that, to my embarrassment.
There's nothing wrong with The Emirates, it felt identical inside to the new Spurs stadium. West Ham is a different kettle of fish entirely, because that's what you get when you move into a stadium that isn't designed for football. I haven't sat in the Doug Ellis stand for about 15 years, but I remember it being dreadful in terms of leg room, with miserable half time facilities.
Post by: olaftab on December 19, 2023, 01:46:56 PM
It says "we are revenue driven, not interested in tying up our money in long term infrastructure investment, business plan is to continue to squeeze maximum juice out of 42,000 as long as we can"
Pathetic excuse based on "current form" so astonishingly short term. Duck you Mr Heck and all those who sail with you.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 01:50:53 PM
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 19, 2023, 01:51:19 PM
I think Arsenal's ground is shite, a soulless bowl. Just a bigger version of Reading's ground.
Would rather stick to Villa Park than do that.
If you are planning to build a new stadium, it needs to be unique and not an identikit stadium. Tottenham and proposed Everton stadium for example.
The Emirates and West Ham's ground are the worst places I've watched football, apart from, as you say, Reading. I ended up sharing a cab with some Reading fans when we played them in the last season in the Championship (0-0 Tyrone trod on the fella's face). I was deliberately being very respectful, not wanting to be the 'big club' fan. I can't remember what comment prompted me to do so, but I eventually had to say, "well yeah, but you're fucking Reading and we're Aston Villa!" It quietened down a bit after that, to my embarrassment.
There's nothing wrong with The Emirates, it felt identical inside to the new Spurs stadium. West Ham is a different kettle of fish entirely, because that's what you get when you move into a stadium that isn't designed for football. I haven't sat in the Doug Ellis stand for about 15 years, but I remember it being dreadful in terms of leg room, with miserable half time facilities.
I had a ST in the Doug Ellis Upper, decent view, terrible legroom, cramped walkways with little or no space to socialise, pitiful for a modern stadium.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 01:51:53 PM
Pause all big investments - review the options.
On paper you couldn't get a better location than Villa Park - two stations - with links to the city and parts of the city where we draw our fans from - close to a motorway junction, and plenty of big roads leading to the city centre. If we can't get it right there where is a better spot?
All that interview has done has increase speculation. What a mess.
Post by: AV84 on December 19, 2023, 01:52:20 PM
I know people don't like the money driven aspects of football but at the end of the day, if we want to make this season a sustainable thing, the club needs to be making huge amounts of money for itself. A lot of Heck's interview sounds like that's what he's here to do, and he might take the fans into account when he's doing it but his ultimate goal is to bring in cash regardless.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 01:52:43 PM
Atairos deal just announced but has obviously been discussed for a while, as such things don't just happen overnight. Club goes quiet on the North Stand for a while, too. Deal announced, and literally days after, the NS pause comes to light.
When the Atairos thing hit the news, the club made it clear it doesn't affect ownership of Villa, that will be remaining under the control of NSWE.
However - the stadium doesn't belong to the same company any more, they changed that a couple of years ago.
So, will it be that the holding company that holds the ground IS considered part of the V Sports Atairos deal, and that's what it is largely about?
Post by: Beard82 on December 19, 2023, 01:53:46 PM
I wouldn't want us to leave Villa Park
Post by: robleflaneur on December 19, 2023, 01:54:26 PM
So a tremoundsely shite decision."Maximum juice",sounds like a big hike in ticket prices,especially my old 'f**t concession. Anyway,very small,short term thinking.
It says "we are revenue driven, not interested in tying up our money in long term infrastructure investment, business plan is to
continue to squeeze maximum juice out of 42,000 as long as we can"
Pathetic excuse based on "current form" so astonishingly short term7. Duck you Mr Heck and all those who sail with you.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 01:55:28 PM
I love Villa Park, its special, its where my family have been going for generations. I get that for some, this is not important but nothing can replace the atmosphere we experience against Arsenal and City last week.
I dont trust this Heck fella.
Post by: Beard82 on December 19, 2023, 01:56:18 PM
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 01:58:08 PM
The cynic in me thinks they have become aware that the 30k season ticket list isn't "real" and they may not fill it every week.
This could certainly be part of the thinking.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 02:00:19 PM
Here's a thought.Its hard to tell but I don't believe in coincidences.
Atairos deal just announced but has obviously been discussed for a while, as such things don't just happen overnight. Club goes quiet on the North Stand for a while, too. Deal announced, and literally days after, the NS pause comes to light.
When the Atairos thing hit the news, the club made it clear it doesn't affect ownership of Villa, that will be remaining under the control of NSWE.
However - the stadium doesn't belong to the same company any more, they changed that a couple of years ago.
So, will it be that the holding company that holds the ground IS considered part of the V Sports Atairos deal, and that's what it is largely about?
The New Investment and the non development of the ground are obviously related.
Which without doubt means that a move is more likely.
Post by: frank black on December 19, 2023, 02:00:23 PM
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 02:01:01 PM
The cynic in me thinks they have become aware that the 30k season ticket list isn't "real" and they may not fill it every week. It also seems like Chris Heck will want everything done his way - everything has been paused and changed. The Conference league turnouts probably add to that. Also - the premium seats won't sell if there are spares elsewhere
I wouldn't want us to leave Villa Park
The cynic in me thinks they have become aware that the 30k season ticket list isn't "real" and they may not fill it every week. It also seems like Chris Heck will want everything done his way - everything has been paused and changed. The Conference league turnouts probably add to that. Also - the premium seats won't sell if there are spares elsewhere
I wouldn't want us to leave Villa Park
I say the other way is more likely. They have looked at clubs like Spammers, Everton moving to bigger stadiums and decided not to fix VP but start again.
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 02:01:04 PM
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 02:03:03 PM
So where will the new ground be built?
Knocking down Aston Hall.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 02:04:00 PM
The Emirates is dreadful.
It's not. Good seats, good views, good facilities and in a great area. What didn't you like about it?
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 02:04:40 PM
Makes sense. It’s terribly old.So where will the new ground be built?
Knocking down Aston Hall.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 02:04:42 PM
The Emirates is dreadful.
It's not. Good seats, good views, good facilities and in a great area. What didn't you like about it?
Full of Arsenal fans.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:05:08 PM
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:05:44 PM
The Emirates is dreadful.
It's not. Good seats, good views, good facilities and in a great area. What didn't you like about it?
You have to watch Arsenal.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 02:06:47 PM
The cynic in me thinks they have become aware that the 30k season ticket list isn't "real" and they may not fill it every week. It also seems like Chris Heck will want everything done his way - everything has been paused and changed. The Conference league turnouts probably add to that. Also - the premium seats won't sell if there are spares elsewhere
I wouldn't want us to leave Villa ParkThe cynic in me thinks they have become aware that the 30k season ticket list isn't "real" and they may not fill it every week. It also seems like Chris Heck will want everything done his way - everything has been paused and changed. The Conference league turnouts probably add to that. Also - the premium seats won't sell if there are spares elsewhere
I wouldn't want us to leave Villa Park
I say the other way is more likely. They have looked at clubs like Spammers, Everton moving to bigger stadiums and decided not to fix VP but start again.
The new investment specifically mentioned infrastructure projects, which made me think it was going to fund the new North. It may be part of a bigger project, definitely. I mean, you don't need a huge amount more investment if you're just renovating the ground and making more improvements to the training facilities.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 02:07:32 PM
If it were to be mooted, he'd be pointing out that Spurs, Arsenal, West Ham, soon Everton have all done it and they too had grounds they were attached to. Then he'd point at Milan and Inter who are both leaving San Siro.
Post by: olaftab on December 19, 2023, 02:07:46 PM
But isn't this the polar opposite of entertainment business where "you build/make it they will come" the usual mantra?The cynic in me thinks they have become aware that the 30k season ticket list isn't "real" and they may not fill it every week.
This could certainly be part of the thinking.
Post by: KevinGage on December 19, 2023, 02:08:37 PM
A new North Stand (or Witton Lane) is, of course, better for the club's long term future.
But the last guy was in the role for five years. If Heck's tenure is similar one train of thought is he might not see much of a benefit from the increased capacity in that time. Or not enough to justify the costs and headaches that go with it.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 02:10:31 PM
NEC - one rail line, but loads of surface car parks to be built on or used.
Washwood Heath - now HS2 don't need all the land has been downgraded has loads of land - but crap connections
Longbridge - Has the land free - but wrong location
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:11:07 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 02:11:17 PM
The Emirates is dreadful.
It's not. Good seats, good views, good facilities and in a great area. What didn't you like about it?
All those things are true, but it's not a football ground. It feels like going to the cinema. I've been as an away fan (obviously) and with an Arsenal season ticket-holder. It's worse in the home areas. It's really shit.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:12:57 PM
The Emirates is dreadful.
It's not. Good seats, good views, good facilities and in a great area. What didn't you like about it?
All those things are true, but it's not a football ground. It feels like going to the cinema. I've been as an away fan (obviously) and with an Arsenal season ticket-holder. It's worse in the home areas. It's really shit.
I think that's almost entirely the point. The Emirates wasn't built for Arsenal fans, but for Arsenal tourists.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 02:14:27 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 02:15:24 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
I do like the look of the New Everton Stadium
Post by: chrisw1 on December 19, 2023, 02:16:44 PM
They may also be concerned about the pushback / lack of take up of the 'premium experiences' I think the major driver behind the new stand was to increase hospitality and premium offer. If they're coming to the conclusion that right now there's not much appetite for it in B6, then the return on investment of the extra seats just isn't worth it.
Overall it's disappointing. But if we are in the CL next season, I'm kind of glad we'll be in a complete stadium.
Post by: saunders_heroes on December 19, 2023, 02:17:06 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
I like Tottenham’s.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 02:18:55 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
The new Wembley is alright, although the only time I've been there was the victorious playoff final in the posh bit, courtesy of Risso, so I don't know that I had a representative experience.
Post by: algy on December 19, 2023, 02:19:16 PM
Yes!Some serious partying going on in our house too.
I was all for redevelopment, but then it's got to 6 months before and I've had severe regrets that the Burnley game might be the last time that I sit there.
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 02:19:39 PM
The Emirates is dreadful.
It's not. Good seats, good views, good facilities and in a great area. What didn't you like about it?
All those things are true, but it's not a football ground. It feels like going to the cinema. I've been as an away fan (obviously) and with an Arsenal season ticket-holder. It's worse in the home areas. It's really shit.
I think that's almost entirely the point. The Emirates wasn't built for Arsenal fans, but for Arsenal tourists.
The 'Emirates' was built for Benfica and their tourist fans. Arsenal basically hired the same designers and used the Benfica blueprints to build their new stadium. Coach parking was key to the design.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:21:39 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
The new Wembley is alright, although the only time I've been there was the victorious playoff final in the posh bit, courtesy of Risso, so I don't know that I had a representative experience.
Wembley as a ground seems fine. Wembley as a location is an absolute ball-ache.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on December 19, 2023, 02:23:35 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 02:25:03 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
The new Wembley is alright, although the only time I've been there was the victorious playoff final in the posh bit, courtesy of Risso, so I don't know that I had a representative experience.
Wembley as a ground seems fine. Wembley as a location is an absolute ball-ache.
Yes and no - driving is now pain, but still on the right side of London and can be accessed by two motorways. It is served by 2 big mainline stations, with shuttle services into London and northwards and loads of tube stations in walking distance.
Not many better than that.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on December 19, 2023, 02:25:07 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 02:25:16 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
The new Wembley is alright, although the only time I've been there was the victorious playoff final in the posh bit, courtesy of Risso, so I don't know that I had a representative experience.
Wembley as a ground seems fine. Wembley as a location is an absolute ball-ache.
Is it, though? The location I mean.
It has its own railway station, tube stations, and is very near the main A road taking traffic out of London.
I've never found it particularly bad if you use your nous about coming and going. Last time I went, for the CC final, we got an uber to a location a five minute walk away from the stadium, and after the match sat and had a few drinks and waited whilst the crowd disappeared before wandering up to get the tube.
Although admittedly, we were in Club Wembley gold seats, so access to a decent bar to wait in much easier.
For the Liverpool semi final, I drove and parked in one of the MSCPs at the stadium. Again, no real problem getting away.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 02:25:46 PM
Post by: algy on December 19, 2023, 02:26:24 PM
While we may end up with a bigger sparkly ground with better transport, leaving Villa Park will kill a Villa part of me that will never come back no matter how successful we are.This.
Went for a drink with an Evertonian mate on Thursday. His words were basically:
You know the Roman amphitheatre (in Chester)? That's got a capacity of, what, about 750? But it's been there for 2000 years and nobody would dream of knocking it down.
Goodison Park was the first purpose built football stadium in the world, and it's had 40,000 people turning up every other week for 100 years. It's had a far bigger cultural impact than that amphitheatre, but in a few months there'll be nothing left of it. It'll be houses.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 02:27:11 PM
Moving stadium and location is a double whammy in terms of losing emotional attachment. Spurs and Arsenal’s new grounds are pretty much next door to their old ones, meaning no impact on how fans get to the ground so they can maintain long held pre-match rituals. Something we would never be able to do.
But at the same time, White Hart Lane was for ages considered a bit of a bastard to get to, yet they've moved next door.
I could see us buying chunks of Aston Park from BCC and creating space for a new stadium, and having upgrading rail links as part of that deal.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:28:14 PM
Where is an example of a good new stadium?
The new Wembley is alright, although the only time I've been there was the victorious playoff final in the posh bit, courtesy of Risso, so I don't know that I had a representative experience.
Wembley as a ground seems fine. Wembley as a location is an absolute ball-ache.
Is it, though? The location I mean.
It has its own railway station, tube stations, and is very near the main A road taking traffic out of London.
I've never found it particularly bad if you use your nous about coming and going. Last time I went, for the CC final, we got an uber to a location a five minute walk away from the stadium, and after the match sat and had a few drinks and waited whilst the crowd disappeared before wandering up to get the tube.
Although admittedly, we were in Club Wembley gold seats, so access to a decent bar to wait in much easier.
For the Liverpool semi final, I drove and parked in one of the MSCPs at the stadium. Again, no real problem getting away.
I've only ever done coach trips there, so might have been the method of getting there that was more of a problem. I have bad memories of idling in traffic for silly amounts of time.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:29:52 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on December 19, 2023, 02:30:17 PM
Spurs is excellent. Everton looks great and I think the location is brilliant, but it's a bit small.
In terms of older stadiums, the Millenium in Cardiff may not look all that, but it is brilliant. An example of how a new stadium can still generate a superb atmosphere.
The stadia I'm most jealous of are those next to the City Centre where fans can walk to the ground. They may not be the best in terms of pre-match income, but for fan experience and a feeling of community they are great fun. As much as I love VP, there's no fun in getting to the ground or spending time near it.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 02:31:41 PM
The red tape and wider implications of new stations create a massive problem - look at the three stations on the Camp Hill line. Planned for over 15 years - still not ready and they require no new tracks, sidings etc... All the stuff at Witton is superficial - queueing and access - not an increase in the number of trains or the number of carriages. These decisions are well beyond the influence of football clubs and (bankrupt) local authorities.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:32:15 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 02:32:43 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on December 19, 2023, 02:32:57 PM
Moving stadium and location is a double whammy in terms of losing emotional attachment. Spurs and Arsenal’s new grounds are pretty much next door to their old ones, meaning no impact on how fans get to the ground so they can maintain long held pre-match rituals. Something we would never be able to do.
But at the same time, White Hart Lane was for ages considered a bit of a bastard to get to, yet they've moved next door.
Yep, they originally put a bid in for the Olympic Stadium.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 19, 2023, 02:33:11 PM
Some people on socials seem convinced the NEC is the ultimate plan should we move. Is that realistic?I don't think there's space there. It's probably the worst of all worlds for me.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 02:33:40 PM
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:33:42 PM
Has a new stadium ever been developed in tandem with a new railway station?
The red tape and wider implications of new stations create a massive problem - look at the three stations on the Camp Hill line. Planned for over 15 years - still not ready and they require no new tracks, sidings etc... All the stuff at Witton is superficial - queueing and access - not an increase in the number of trains or the number of carriages. These decisions are well beyond the influence of football clubs and (bankrupt) local authorities.
I can't recall one in this country. Munich did for the Allianz Arena.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 02:33:43 PM
Some people on socials seem convinced the NEC is the ultimate plan should we move. Is that realistic?I don't think there's space there. It's probably the worst of all worlds for me.
I struggle to think of anything worse.
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 02:33:47 PM
I don't like the way Club Wembley cuts the stands in half. It gets away with it because of the sheer volume of fans, but a similar tier in a smaller ground would dominate.
Spurs is excellent. Everton looks great and I think the location is brilliant, but it's a bit small.
In terms of older stadiums, the Millenium in Cardiff may not look all that, but it is brilliant. An example of how a new stadium can still generate a superb atmosphere.
The stadia I'm most jealous of are those next to the City Centre where fans can walk to the ground. They may not be the best in terms of pre-match income, but for fan experience and a feeling of community they are great fun. As much as I love VP, there's no fun in getting to the ground or spending time near it.
My brother commented at Spurs that despite 60k being there the atmosphere was shit, and that's one of the better ones.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:37:08 PM
Some people on socials seem convinced the NEC is the ultimate plan should we move. Is that realistic?I don't think there's space there. It's probably the worst of all worlds for me.
I struggle to think of anything worse.
I think you'd have the same problems with trains as we currently do as well. Busier line but how many trains would cater for fans?
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 02:37:57 PM
I don't like the way Club Wembley cuts the stands in half. It gets away with it because of the sheer volume of fans, but a similar tier in a smaller ground would dominate.
Spurs is excellent. Everton looks great and I think the location is brilliant, but it's a bit small.
In terms of older stadiums, the Millenium in Cardiff may not look all that, but it is brilliant. An example of how a new stadium can still generate a superb atmosphere.
The stadia I'm most jealous of are those next to the City Centre where fans can walk to the ground. They may not be the best in terms of pre-match income, but for fan experience and a feeling of community they are great fun. As much as I love VP, there's no fun in getting to the ground or spending time near it.
My brother commented at Spurs that despite 60k being there the atmosphere was shit, and that's one of the better ones.
Newcastle is the best ground in my opinion for the reasons Chris says. A short walk from the city centre, and a very good ground once you get there. I don't like Spurs because it's a pain to get to and like Villa Park, there's not much around it. Arsenal is one tube stop from Kings Cross and the area around Islington is superb. Man City is a good, well designed ground but part of a vast, faceless complex that feels like it's part of dystopian sci fi film. Old Trafford is just shit, in a crap area and a rubbish, falling down pile of shite.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 02:41:13 PM
Post by: sid1964 on December 19, 2023, 02:42:11 PM
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:42:24 PM
I wonder if we could move to Brentford's old ground. That was a belter.
Let's not be greedy - we've just taken their current one.
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 02:44:52 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 19, 2023, 02:45:17 PM
Moving stadium and location is a double whammy in terms of losing emotional attachment. Spurs and Arsenal’s new grounds are pretty much next door to their old ones, meaning no impact on how fans get to the ground so they can maintain long held pre-match rituals. Something we would never be able to do.
But at the same time, White Hart Lane was for ages considered a bit of a bastard to get to, yet they've moved next door.
I could see us buying chunks of Aston Park from BCC and creating space for a new stadium, and having upgrading rail links as part of that deal.
I can't see us ever getting permission to buy a park and do anything that would infringe on Aston Hall.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 02:46:24 PM
Post by: paul_e on December 19, 2023, 02:46:39 PM
Has a new stadium ever been developed in tandem with a new railway station?
The red tape and wider implications of new stations create a massive problem - look at the three stations on the Camp Hill line. Planned for over 15 years - still not ready and they require no new tracks, sidings etc... All the stuff at Witton is superficial - queueing and access - not an increase in the number of trains or the number of carriages. These decisions are well beyond the influence of football clubs and (bankrupt) local authorities.
I can't recall one in this country. Munich did for the Allianz Arena.
Coventry arena had a station build but not until a few years later.
The only other one I can think of is the olympic park but that was a far bigger project.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 02:47:03 PM
Moving stadium and location is a double whammy in terms of losing emotional attachment. Spurs and Arsenal’s new grounds are pretty much next door to their old ones, meaning no impact on how fans get to the ground so they can maintain long held pre-match rituals. Something we would never be able to do.
But at the same time, White Hart Lane was for ages considered a bit of a bastard to get to, yet they've moved next door.
I could see us buying chunks of Aston Park from BCC and creating space for a new stadium, and having upgrading rail links as part of that deal.
I can't see us ever getting permission to buy a park and do anything that would infringe on Aston Hall.
No chance at all, it's a Grade I listed building.
Post by: ozzjim on December 19, 2023, 02:47:22 PM
If Villa want to push on the capacity and corporate has to grow. At present to do that in the current space is very difficult and i would imagine doesn't give the return on investment needed to justify it, at a time where filling Villa Park is vital.
The answer isn't easy, but there has to be a compromise along the way I fear.
One thing is for sure, no newly built stadium can feel like Villa Park did last week against Man City and Arsenal. The history, the pitch, the emotion, connectivity with the players and people around you. How you retain the soul of a football club in that move, I just don't know.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 02:48:55 PM
Moving stadium and location is a double whammy in terms of losing emotional attachment. Spurs and Arsenal’s new grounds are pretty much next door to their old ones, meaning no impact on how fans get to the ground so they can maintain long held pre-match rituals. Something we would never be able to do.
But at the same time, White Hart Lane was for ages considered a bit of a bastard to get to, yet they've moved next door.
I could see us buying chunks of Aston Park from BCC and creating space for a new stadium, and having upgrading rail links as part of that deal.
I can't see us ever getting permission to buy a park and do anything that would infringe on Aston Hall.
I'm not au fait with the intricacies of Birmingham's local politics, but I'd be amazed if a Tory mayor wasn't up for selling off public assets for 'development'.
Post by: KevinGage on December 19, 2023, 02:48:58 PM
So best not to do it.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 02:49:18 PM
The actual stadium at Spurs is brilliant, I went fully expecting to hate it and thought it was brilliant. Getting to it, not so great.
If Villa want to push on the capacity and corporate has to grow. At present to do that in the current space is very difficult and i would imagine doesn't give the return on investment needed to justify it, at a time where filling Villa Park is vital.
The answer isn't easy, but there has to be a compromise along the way I fear.
One thing is for sure, no newly built stadium can feel like Villa Park did last week against Man City and Arsenal. The history, the pitch, the emotion, connectivity with the players and people around you. How you retain the soul of a football club in that move, I just don't know.
The atmosphere when we beat Derby at Wembley was pretty special. The atmosphere when we played Luton at home this season was as flat as a witch's tit.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 19, 2023, 02:49:40 PM
Isn't a leg of HS2 still going through right next to it ? Stick a platform alongside and you could get from the middle of London to outside the ground in 45 minutes.
Probably complete bollocks I'm talking, plus it will be bloody hard getting to the bar pre-match in the Dog & Doublet.
Post by: paul_e on December 19, 2023, 02:49:40 PM
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 02:49:43 PM
If Heck is thinking about his own legacy - and how he sells himself to the next sports club- saving his employers a cool £100 million by not going ahead with this and the extra revenue from the 6000 seats per game we won't lose is an easy win.
A new North Stand (or Witton Lane) is, of course, better for the club's long term future.
But the last guy was in the role for five years. If Heck's tenure is similar one train of thought is he might not see much of a benefit from the increased capacity in that time. Or not enough to justify the costs and headaches that go with it.
Indeed.
He is working for his own figures to be good on his CV in the merry-go-round of top brass jobs.
We were sold on his figures when improving the basketball place he was at in America, & he didn't get those numbers by reducing capacity when tickets were in demand.
Even if it does appear to be short term & personal interest driven.
Now that might be completely wrong, & I really hope it is, but the shitty communication from Heck right from the start doesn't really help when it comes to speculation about his motives.
Post by: The Man With A Stick on December 19, 2023, 02:49:55 PM
Some people on socials seem convinced the NEC is the ultimate plan should we move. Is that realistic?
Fuck that, it's the wrong side of the tracks for starters.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 02:49:58 PM
I'm not au fait with the intricacies of Birmingham's local politics, but I'd be amazed if a Tory mayor wasn't up for selling off public assets for 'development'.
Absolutely nothing to do with him though.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 02:51:13 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 02:51:37 PM
I'm not au fait with the intricacies of Birmingham's local politics, but I'd be amazed if a Tory mayor wasn't up for selling off public assets for 'development'.
Absolutely nothing to do with him though.
Ah. As I said, I know fuck all!
Post by: Drummond on December 19, 2023, 02:52:23 PM
The Euros thing isn't much of a problem. If they focus on the fans that go now, and get that experience right, revenues will go up hugely anyway.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 02:54:33 PM
Moving stadium and location is a double whammy in terms of losing emotional attachment. Spurs and Arsenal’s new grounds are pretty much next door to their old ones, meaning no impact on how fans get to the ground so they can maintain long held pre-match rituals. Something we would never be able to do.
Triple whammy, cos they will go for a name change too...
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 02:54:58 PM
But the big issue with doing it that way would be having no stadium at all for several years...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 19, 2023, 02:55:40 PM
Has a new stadium ever been developed in tandem with a new railway station?
The red tape and wider implications of new stations create a massive problem - look at the three stations on the Camp Hill line. Planned for over 15 years - still not ready and they require no new tracks, sidings etc... All the stuff at Witton is superficial - queueing and access - not an increase in the number of trains or the number of carriages. These decisions are well beyond the influence of football clubs and (bankrupt) local authorities.
I can't recall one in this country. Munich did for the Allianz Arena.
Coventry arena had a station build but not until a few years later.
The only other one I can think of is the olympic park but that was a far bigger project.
Hull City had their own station at the old Boothferry Park. Of course back in the 60s and 70s, you had proper grounds that were shite and the car hadn't really reached to such far flung parts of Yorkshire.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 19, 2023, 02:56:04 PM
Villa Park is what makes us unique, and is the one ever present as new generations of fans come along and old generations depart to that Holte End in the sky.
I'd rather sit in 2 hours of traffic to walk up Witton Road, smelling burgers and hotdogs with the glorious Holte End in the distance any day, than take a turn off the motorway into some tarmacced plateau servicing a soulless, plastic bowl.
Really starting to take a dislike to this new guy. If being successful means that we have to set light to our history, then I'd rather not thanks.
This for me (plus what Nev and PWS said).
Post by: rob_bridge on December 19, 2023, 02:59:18 PM
Some people on socials seem convinced the NEC is the ultimate plan should we move. Is that realistic?
Fuck that, it's the wrong side of the tracks for starters.
If and it is a big if we move, can anyone think of a location other than extended NEC and surrounds site which will have the requisite ready made transport links. Anywhere in the conurbation - because I am racking my brains and can't think.
Post by: john2710 on December 19, 2023, 02:59:37 PM
2. On the pitch we are years ahead of where we thought we'd be even 2 years ago, Villa Park & it's atmosphere is a massive advantage & maybe we need to keep things stable & build on where we are before making any comittments. A bit like Doug keeping his powder dry for when the TV money ran out & we could pounce.
3. We're about to outgrow Villa Park & it's limitations, the opportunity of outside investment & a council that is skint provides a unique opportuninty to build a new stadium for the next 150 years.
If we stand still, we'll be left behind, again. If we put a successful team on the pitch, the crowds will turn up.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 02:59:58 PM
Tie that into the planned new stations on the existing railway line there and the Metro to Star City - as well as the existing station at Aston, which is a similar walking distance, then the transport doesn't look too bad...
Post by: Villafirst on December 19, 2023, 03:05:19 PM
Post by: sid1964 on December 19, 2023, 03:06:05 PM
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 03:07:58 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 03:08:04 PM
Disappointing news. You obviously can't develop without some loss of capacity and revenue. The North Stand desperately needs replacing. The facilties are outdated. Liverpool have added a lot more capacity over several years and I understand their capacity will be around 57,000. Not a single seat has been added to Villa Park in over 20 years - Deadly Doug replaced the Trinity Road stand in the last major redevelopment of the stadium. Demand is at record levels, and the club has failed to satisfy that demand. I can't believe the redevelopment will take over 2 years to complete. Surely the lower part of of the North Stand can be retained and demolish the rear structure for expansion?
It's not the seats though, the big money is to be made on offering better corporate offerings, VIP experiences, and more expensive ticket options. You can up the capacity in the North and add some of these, but you're stuck for the rest of the ground.
Post by: Flamingo Lane on December 19, 2023, 03:09:09 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 03:10:09 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on December 19, 2023, 03:11:47 PM
The LDV/HS2 site is the interesting one - a load of the land has just been released by HS2 because they don't need it. That was before the downgrade too.
Tie that into the planned new stations on the existing railway line there and the Metro to Star City - as well as the existing station at Aston, which is a similar walking distance, then the transport doesn't look too bad...
The Metro isn't going to Star City anytime soon though, and new stations are pie in the sky if they can't even get the old ones up to scratch. That LDV site would have all of the disadvantages of an out of town bowl (no easy access to the city centre, no local amenities etc.) with none of the advantages of ease of car access.
Realistically, the only site in the whole of Birmingham that might make sense for a new ground would be the Wheels site (plenty of land, close to city centre, on existing rail and metro routes), but it just wouldn't be right for Villa. Other than there, Villa Park is already the best site available for a 50k+ stadium, and it's a pisser that the plans have been kicked back again for what is now the third or fourth time. Added to everything else Heck has overseen (badge fiasco, Holte Suite, Terrace View, price increases) it leaves a bad taste when everything else is so positive. Does anyone have any idea what his remit is, other than to piss off existing supporters?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 03:12:26 PM
Whatever the merits or otherwise of not proceeding with the new stand, the means of communication (buried in an interview described as a mid-season update) is pretty poor.
Definitely agree with this when you consider there are people who have sat in the north stand for years who have assumed they’d lose their seat after this season.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 03:14:08 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 19, 2023, 03:15:09 PM
The actual stadium at Spurs is brilliant, I went fully expecting to hate it and thought it was brilliant. Getting to it, not so great.
If Villa want to push on the capacity and corporate has to grow. At present to do that in the current space is very difficult and i would imagine doesn't give the return on investment needed to justify it, at a time where filling Villa Park is vital.
The answer isn't easy, but there has to be a compromise along the way I fear.
One thing is for sure, no newly built stadium can feel like Villa Park did last week against Man City and Arsenal. The history, the pitch, the emotion, connectivity with the players and people around you. How you retain the soul of a football club in that move, I just don't know.
The atmosphere when we beat Derby at Wembley was pretty special. The atmosphere when we played Luton at home this season was as flat as a witch's tit.
You learn something every day. I had no idea a witch’s tit was flat.
Post by: Monty on December 19, 2023, 03:16:18 PM
Ground share with Blues incoming! ;)
:'(
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 19, 2023, 03:17:02 PM
The LDV/HS2 site is the interesting one - a load of the land has just been released by HS2 because they don't need it. That was before the downgrade too.
Tie that into the planned new stations on the existing railway line there and the Metro to Star City - as well as the existing station at Aston, which is a similar walking distance, then the transport doesn't look too bad...
The Metro isn't going to Star City anytime soon though, and new stations are pie in the sky if they can't even get the old ones up to scratch. That LDV site would have all of the disadvantages of an out of town bowl (no easy access to the city centre, no local amenities etc.) with none of the advantages of ease of car access.
Realistically, the only site in the whole of Birmingham that might make sense for a new ground would be the Wheels site (plenty of land, close to city centre, on existing rail and metro routes), but it just wouldn't be right for Villa. Other than there, Villa Park is already the best site available for a 50k+ stadium, and it's a pisser that the plans have been kicked back again for what is now the third or fourth time. Added to everything else Heck has overseen (badge fiasco, Holte Suite, Terrace View, price increases) it leaves a bad taste when everything else is so positive. Does anyone have any idea what his remit is, other than to piss off existing supporters?
Like.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 03:17:54 PM
The LDV/HS2 site is the interesting one - a load of the land has just been released by HS2 because they don't need it. That was before the downgrade too.
Tie that into the planned new stations on the existing railway line there and the Metro to Star City - as well as the existing station at Aston, which is a similar walking distance, then the transport doesn't look too bad...
The Metro isn't going to Star City anytime soon though, and new stations are pie in the sky if they can't even get the old ones up to scratch. That LDV site would have all of the disadvantages of an out of town bowl (no easy access to the city centre, no local amenities etc.) with none of the advantages of ease of car access.
Realistically, the only site in the whole of Birmingham that might make sense for a new ground would be the Wheels site (plenty of land, close to city centre, on existing rail and metro routes), but it just wouldn't be right for Villa. Other than there, Villa Park is already the best site available for a 50k+ stadium, and it's a pisser that the plans have been kicked back again for what is now the third or fourth time. Added to everything else Heck has overseen (badge fiasco, Holte Suite, Terrace View, price increases) it leaves a bad taste when everything else is so positive. Does anyone have any idea what his remit is, other than to piss off existing supporters?
To an extent, but even if a decision was made today it would be 10 years before a ball is kicked at a new stadium - enough time to get the stations built - but maybe not the Metro.
Oh... and all of the amenities would be on site - so more fans would have to use the ground's facilities.
Post by: andyh on December 19, 2023, 03:18:09 PM
Or did I dream that ?
Post by: Flamingo Lane on December 19, 2023, 03:20:30 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 03:22:54 PM
Ground share with Blues incoming! ;)
:'(
"We want to synthesise the love and pride that all people from Birmingham feel for the two great teams in England's third city, and maximise the synergistic gains achievable from combining two world class operations, whilst maximising shareholder utility and increasing the P/E ratio for our valued capital investment partners, our number one key performance indicator."
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 03:22:56 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 03:23:26 PM
Where/what is the Wheels site?
Banger/Stock Car/Karting venue in Duddeston/Nechells that the Council have closed down and they are now hawking around to sell it off.
Stone's throw from St Andrews and potential location for their new 10,000 seater stadium.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 19, 2023, 03:23:45 PM
I love our history, absolutely love it. But it wasn't much consolation when we were getting 25k in the Championship.Villa Park is what makes us unique, and is the one ever present as new generations of fans come along and old generations depart to that Holte End in the sky.
I'd rather sit in 2 hours of traffic to walk up Witton Road, smelling burgers and hotdogs with the glorious Holte End in the distance any day, than take a turn off the motorway into some tarmacced plateau servicing a soulless, plastic bowl.
Really starting to take a dislike to this new guy. If being successful means that we have to set light to our history, then I'd rather not thanks.
This for me (plus what Nev and PWS said).
I don't want us to move grounds. But mostly I do want us competing with the elite. I want to see us make more history. I can't really remember enjoying our football as much as I do right now and that's because we're competing at the top.
I'd rather us get on with the north and make our history at VP. And in due course I think that's what we'll do. But ultimately if it means competing for titles and the European cup again, then I'll be there wherever we're playing.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 03:24:32 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 03:25:50 PM
Ground share with Blues incoming! ;)
:'(
"We want to synthesise the love and pride that all people from Birmingham feel for the two great teams in England's third city, and maximise the synergistic gains achievable from combining two world class operations, whilst maximising shareholder utility and increasing the P/E ratio for our valued capital investment partners, our number one key performance indicator."
We're going to be the winningest!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 03:26:43 PM
Ground share with Blues incoming! ;)
:'(
"We want to synthesise the love and pride that all people from Birmingham feel for the two great teams in England's third city, and maximise the synergistic gains achievable from combining two world class operations, whilst maximising shareholder utility and increasing the P/E ratio for our valued capital investment partners, our number one key performance indicator."
We're going to be the winningest!
Real exciting times for our storied franchise!
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 03:31:36 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on December 19, 2023, 03:36:33 PM
Alternatively, what is (or what is going to be) on the old National Express site ?
Post by: rob_bridge on December 19, 2023, 03:40:55 PM
Can't they knock all those empty flats down that were built for the Commonwealth Games?
Alternatively, what is (or what is going to be) on the old National Express site ?
Like LDV site, Perry Barr doesn't solve the transport issues to the extent we would need them too. If we are to do a 55-60k. We could probably do a 30-35k on each site but that sort of is very pointless
Post by: nick harper on December 19, 2023, 03:41:18 PM
That’s not the case with Villa. I think the vast majority of fans would need a lot of convincing to accept the need to move given we do have space. I thought the development was great. It would only have improved Villa Park as one of the great English grounds. I would feel bereft if we ever left.
I wonder if Purslow will be seen as the visionary in 5 years time.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 03:41:23 PM
Can't they knock all those empty flats down that were built for the Commonwealth Games?
Alternatively, what is (or what is going to be) on the old National Express site ?
The coach depot is still there. They’re demolishing the Irish centre now. It’s going to be some 50 storey expensive flats thing
Post by: Luffbralion on December 19, 2023, 03:44:15 PM
However, the talk of moving to the NEC has me worried. I've been going to VP for over sixty years and I love the Bartons before hand, the walk to the ground, the rituals, the memories. I actually find it easier to get away from VP than from my neighbouring clubs; Forest and Leicester.
A few years ago I went to see Atletico Madrid in the Vicente Calderon stadium. It was a bit like Newcastle as you could walk from the city centre, enjoying bars and restaurants on the way and feel the atmosphere growing as you approached the ground.
Now they've moved to a modern bowl miles from the city centre, near the airport and in a totally nondescript location. I really don't want to be watching the game in a place like that.
Villa Park till I die.
Post by: rob_bridge on December 19, 2023, 03:44:26 PM
Can't they knock all those empty flats down that were built for the Commonwealth Games?
Alternatively, what is (or what is going to be) on the old National Express site ?
The coach depot is still there. They’re demolishing the Irish centre now. It’s going to be some 50 storey expensive flats thing
It'd be like West Ham trying to move to Shoreditch. Not gonna happen. Plus too close to the Stench of the Shit Pit in Bordersley
Post by: UK Redsox on December 19, 2023, 03:45:33 PM
What's the point in building more flats while those near One Stop are empty (at least I think they're empty based on the site still being fenced off)
Post by: rob_bridge on December 19, 2023, 03:47:15 PM
I mean genuinely have an idea.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 03:47:25 PM
I thought that the coach depot was now on Aston Lane (where the job centre and car parts place was) ?
What's the point in building more flats while those near One Stop are empty (at least I think they're empty based on the site still being fenced off)
No idea, it'll be the developers making the decisions in terms of where they get a return. There's no money in renting out flats in Perry Barr, really.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 03:47:37 PM
I thought that the coach depot was now on Aston Lane (where the job centre and car parts place was) ?
What's the point in building more flats while those near One Stop are empty (at least I think they're empty based on the site still being fenced off)
Like a lot of stuff for the Commonwealth Games - it's just not finished. Like the Universtity station and the "Sprint" bus lanes.
Post by: Nelly on December 19, 2023, 03:49:10 PM
Post by: dicedlam on December 19, 2023, 03:49:22 PM
It used to be the CL revenue that helped keep the big boys at the top. Spurs without CL still have a massive advantage because of the extra commercial revenue their ground now makes.
The owners may be seeing that even if we get in the CL for a few seasons, without a massive increase in matchday revenue we are still going to be well behind. A new stadium may be the most likely way of joining that club.
I really expect Newcastle to do the same at some point, only I wouldn't be surprised if they get moved down south to somewhere more attractive for tourist money.
They are already talking about building a big stadium on the site of the town moor located about a mile or so from St James Park.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 03:51:42 PM
When did we get 25k in the championship ? Maybe 1 game yeh
We had quite a few under 30K the first couple of years down there. A few around the 26-28K on Tuesday nights.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 04:08:45 PM
Post by: Gareth on December 19, 2023, 04:14:45 PM
If they are halting development because they think there is a better / quicker / cheaper way to do it then so be it (that is what they are employed for after all) but as we keep finding with Heck and co it feels like you only get the sound bite not the detail.
I would imagine season ticket holders in current North will be happy today…that’s a positive
Would hope we will now see them spend a few quid to improve facilities in the existing stands now…won’t hold my breath on that one though :-)
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 04:16:25 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 04:29:45 PM
The LDV/HS2 site is the interesting one - a load of the land has just been released by HS2 because they don't need it. That was before the downgrade too.
Tie that into the planned new stations on the existing railway line there and the Metro to Star City - as well as the existing station at Aston, which is a similar walking distance, then the transport doesn't look too bad...
The Metro isn't going to Star City anytime soon though, and new stations are pie in the sky if they can't even get the old ones up to scratch. That LDV site would have all of the disadvantages of an out of town bowl (no easy access to the city centre, no local amenities etc.) with none of the advantages of ease of car access.
Realistically, the only site in the whole of Birmingham that might make sense for a new ground would be the Wheels site (plenty of land, close to city centre, on existing rail and metro routes), but it just wouldn't be right for Villa. Other than there, Villa Park is already the best site available for a 50k+ stadium, and it's a pisser that the plans have been kicked back again for what is now the third or fourth time. Added to everything else Heck has overseen (badge fiasco, Holte Suite, Terrace View, price increases) it leaves a bad taste when everything else is so positive. Does anyone have any idea what his remit is, other than to piss off existing supporters?
Like.
Yep, good post.
Post by: eamonn on December 19, 2023, 04:31:36 PM
Overall, this feels really disappointing. As has been pointed-out, we've had blueprints and schemes for a North Stand re-development since the 90s. I thought we at last had a regime who were competent in finally implementing the idea but today suggests not so much.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 04:35:54 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on December 19, 2023, 04:38:43 PM
Think it been designated for commercial and house building only for the local community, possible with the council need to raise money that might change,Where/what is the Wheels site?
Banger/Stock Car/Karting venue in Duddeston/Nechells that the Council have closed down and they are now hawking around to sell it off.
Stone's throw from St Andrews and potential location for their new 10,000 seater stadium.
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 04:39:25 PM
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 04:44:17 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 04:46:27 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
Post by: coreyfeldman on December 19, 2023, 04:49:20 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
Exactly this, everyone needs to bloody calm down
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 04:49:34 PM
EXACTLY , it sounds such a weird and smalltime thing to say to me ....he is worried we are adding too many seats too quick ....HUHHe's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
Post by: Beard82 on December 19, 2023, 04:51:37 PM
This is broadly where I am. Not everything has its priceVilla Park is what makes us unique, and is the one ever present as new generations of fans come along and old generations depart to that Holte End in the sky.
I'd rather sit in 2 hours of traffic to walk up Witton Road, smelling burgers and hotdogs with the glorious Holte End in the distance any day, than take a turn off the motorway into some tarmacced plateau servicing a soulless, plastic bowl.
Really starting to take a dislike to this new guy. If being successful means that we have to set light to our history, then I'd rather not thanks.
This for me (plus what Nev and PWS said).
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 04:52:58 PM
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 04:55:57 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
You seem to be having almost a meltdown over this and I'm not sure why? He hasn't said we aren't going to address any of the issues you raised, he just said the current plans are being shelved. Also you are stating as fact that 10,000 seats isn't too many - how do you know? He literally said it's too many to fast, so he thinks it is and probably has access to data that you don't.
Again, he's been here 6 months, give him a chance to get his ducks in a row and then let's see what he comes up with.
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 04:58:03 PM
What I don't understand is why put the North Stand redevelopment on hold. Unless you're a season ticket holder getting tickets for games is near impossible, hardly the ideal situation to attract new fans. At the same time the club seem to be going or at least heading in the direction of trying to piss off their existing fans. Heck claims he hasn't spoken publicly until now as he wanted 6 months to learn about the club. Maybe he needs another 6 months before he opens his mouth again. That video of how he turned Phili around by engaging with the fans seems to be either complete bullshit or a lesson he's completely forgotten.
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 04:59:58 PM
It's either a site has been found and wheels in motion for a new stadium or a re-think of the current VP plans I.e. the current ones were not enough. Either way, they need to clarify as I bet UEFA will want assurances etc. Plus the thousands want STs.
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 05:10:07 PM
Post by: Simon Page on December 19, 2023, 05:14:36 PM
Planning permission has gone in on the Wheels site for factory units.
It's only a matter of time before Adderley Park is renamed the Corrugated Quarter.
Post by: colin69 on December 19, 2023, 05:15:22 PM
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 05:16:30 PM
Planning permission has gone in on the Wheels site for factory units.
Warehouses? ;)
Post by: Dogtanian on December 19, 2023, 05:20:25 PM
I don't really see the point in a massive new club shop. How about a decent kit first, and then having it available for purchase in the summer? I would guess that 99% of shirt sales are done over the internet anyway. We don't really have a high proprtion of daytrippers like Man U get for the Old Trafford megastore. I think I've been in once in the last 3 or 4 years, and it mostly seems to be full of people killing half an hour rather than filling their shopping bags.
Plus, if it’s the same mostly crap stuff they’ve been selling for years, having more space to shove it isn’t going to make much difference.
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 05:22:55 PM
Christ, I went into Rackhams on Sunday morning, even the staff couldn't be bothered to go by the looks of it.
Post by: Beard82 on December 19, 2023, 05:24:45 PM
This surely is linked way to the Artimus buy in. As we don't know the investment etc - it might be that pausing makes sense as our Third owner has an input.
The next 2 years could be some of the most important in the clubs history. Realistically, we will never have a better chance to break into the top 4 and establish ourselves there. Champions League, 150th year - potentially the club think we could be going "Global" much sooner than expected, and they don't want to risk that. Realistically if we don't see success over the next 2 years - Unai will leave (might well do even if we do). But I cant see him sticking if we don't keep progressing.
The concern over adding too many seats to fast, suggests to me that Heck wants to focus on revenue per head. I think this is because, there attempts to offer premium match day experience suggest there is not the demand. That combined with the fact that this 30K waiting list are very unlikely to buy a season ticket. CL football will be far more profitable than extra seats - so maybe they want to avoid risking negative impacts on performance.
I think Heck seems like everything is his way or not at all. The mess we have made of things like the rebrand shows if it's not what he thinks is 100% right he won't put his name to it.
Was Purslow pushing for the stadium? Was it a vanity project which didn't add up quite as much as we thought. I do wonder if we would really fill 52k every week given (or at least if we could have under Gerrard for example). Maybe the idea is lets not risk short term success as the next two years could set us up for the next 10 years
I would imagine, Heck also wants time to come to his own conclusions over what the right next step is. he may end up coming to the same point as Purslow did.
So I think with all the above they have decided to focus on smaller projects with more immediate short-term benefit.
The way things are being announced to the fans is far from ideal - no detail or explanation in lots of instances seemingly misleading.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 19, 2023, 05:25:19 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
You seem to be having almost a meltdown over this and I'm not sure why? He hasn't said we aren't going to address any of the issues you raised, he just said the current plans are being shelved. Also you are stating as fact that 10,000 seats isn't too many - how do you know? He literally said it's too many to fast, so he thinks it is and probably has access to data that you don't.
Again, he's been here 6 months, give him a chance to get his ducks in a row and then let's see what he comes up with.
I agree with Risso here. If West Ham (*and Moyes ball!) can fill a 60k running track when there is competition in London from clubs such as Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, etc, we'd easily fill a shiny new North Stand with the catchment area we have at our disposal (*and impending Champions League football). What's he waiting for??
Under Emery, I can only see us improving, so demand isn't going to go away or drop off, it's almost certainly going to increase surely. I'd question why we've waited THIS long, not stop it entirely!
@usav - You seem to really be in Heck's corner on all of this. He's come in with a big reptutation, as a leader in his field, but can you honestly tell me one thing he has got right during his time at the club? Within 6 months, he's fucked the badge launch, vandalised the Holte and stopped the North Stand development. If he can make sweeping decisions like that, why is his priority not to stop the concourses streaming with piss?
First and foremost should be clear and concise communication, and he's even been fucking terrible at that. Nothing he has done so far has given me even a glimmer of confidence that he 'gets' this football club.
#OnBrand my arse.
Post by: KevinGage on December 19, 2023, 05:28:39 PM
A few thoughts, for what they are worth.
This surely is linked way to the Artimus buy in. As we don't know the investment etc - it might be that pausing makes sense as our Third owner has an input.
The next 2 years could be some of the most important in the clubs history. Realistically, we will never have a better chance to break into the top 4 and establish ourselves there. Champions League, 150th year - potentially the club think we could be going "Global" much sooner than expected, and they don't want to risk that. Realistically if we don't see success over the next 2 years - Unai will leave (might well do even if we do). But I cant see him sticking if we don't keep progressing.
The concern over adding too many seats to fast, suggests to me that Heck wants to focus on revenue per head. I think this is because, there attempts to offer premium match day experience suggest there is not the demand. That combined with the fact that this 30K waiting list are very unlikely to buy a season ticket. CL football will be far more profitable than extra seats - so maybe they want to avoid risking negative impacts on performance.
I think Heck seems like everything is his way or not at all. The mess we have made of things like the rebrand shows if it's not what he thinks is 100% right he won't put his name to it.
Was Purslow pushing for the stadium? Was it a vanity project which didn't add up quite as much as we thought. I do wonder if we would really fill 52k every week given (or at least if we could have under Gerrard for example). Maybe the idea is lets not risk short term success as the next two years could set us up for the next 10 years
I would imagine, Heck also wants time to come to his own conclusions over what the right next step is. he may end up coming to the same point as Purslow did.
So I think with all the above they have decided to focus on smaller projects with more immediate short-term benefit.
The way things are being announced to the fans is far from ideal - no detail or explanation in lots of instances seemingly misleading.
Aye, most of that.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 05:29:29 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
Too right, it is nonsense.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 05:30:03 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 19, 2023, 05:33:58 PM
Post by: Paul.S on December 19, 2023, 05:34:08 PM
Villa Park is what makes us unique, and is the one ever present as new generations of fans come along and old generations depart to that Holte End in the sky.
I'd rather sit in 2 hours of traffic to walk up Witton Road, smelling burgers and hotdogs with the glorious Holte End in the distance any day, than take a turn off the motorway into some tarmacced plateau servicing a soulless, plastic bowl.
Really starting to take a dislike to this new guy. If being successful means that we have to set light to our history, then I'd rather not thanks.
Agree with this 100%.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 05:34:38 PM
Not a great track record is it. Serial fuck ups.He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
You seem to be having almost a meltdown over this and I'm not sure why? He hasn't said we aren't going to address any of the issues you raised, he just said the current plans are being shelved. Also you are stating as fact that 10,000 seats isn't too many - how do you know? He literally said it's too many to fast, so he thinks it is and probably has access to data that you don't.
Again, he's been here 6 months, give him a chance to get his ducks in a row and then let's see what he comes up with.
I agree with Risso here. If West Ham (*and Moyes ball!) can fill a 60k running track when there is competition in London from clubs such as Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, etc, we'd easily fill a shiny new North Stand with the catchment area we have at our disposal (*and impending Champions League football). What's he waiting for??
Under Emery, I can only see us improving, so demand isn't going to go away or drop off, it's almost certainly going to increase surely. I'd question why we've waited THIS long, not stop it entirely!
@usav - You seem to really be in Heck's corner on all of this. He's come in with a big reptutation, as a leader in his field, but can you honestly tell me one thing he has got right during his time at the club? Within 6 months, he's fucked the badge launch, vandalised the Holte and stopped the North Stand development. If he can make sweeping decisions like that, why is his priority not to stop the concourses streaming with piss?
First and foremost should be clear and concise communication, and he's even been fucking terrible at that. Nothing he has done so far has given me even a glimmer of confidence that he 'gets' this football club.
#OnBrand my arse.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 05:38:04 PM
It is that he just is an absolute fucking loose cannon with PR. The cack-handed excuses made for the badge fiasco - honestly, he must think we're fucking idiots to believe that one year trial thing was their plan from the start, the turning the FAB meetings into everyone listening to him tell us what the ultimate truth is and bad luck if you don't like it, and now this, announcing the halt on the new stand buried away in some pointless fucking in-house interview and then blathering on about focusing on the customers we already have.
Really, I am not too sure stopping bogs over flowing with piss and painting the inside of stands is really something you need to halt all your other ambition to put right.
There are thousands of people who sit in the north stand who have thought they'd have to move and maybe not even get a seat for the next two years. They've heard absolutely nothing about it addressed directly to them from the club, and although they might be happy with these developments, they deserved to be the first to know.
Heck thus far has shown us lots of "we won't be doing that" and hardly any "this is what we are going to do".
Post by: Smithy on December 19, 2023, 05:38:28 PM
What I don't like, is a message of "we're not doing this any more", rather than a message of "we're doing this instead". It's left a huge void for misinformation and speculation (as we're all proving).
I'm all for taking stock, and not rushing ahead with a huge infrastructure project if the guy at the top thinks that it might prove a bad decision in 5 years time, but I think they've done a poor job communicating it, considering the general consensus on the North Stand redevelopment was a positive one.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 05:40:22 PM
The gate income from another 6,000 people in the North Stand is a piddling small amount.
Post by: DB on December 19, 2023, 05:45:13 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
You seem to be having almost a meltdown over this and I'm not sure why? He hasn't said we aren't going to address any of the issues you raised, he just said the current plans are being shelved. Also you are stating as fact that 10,000 seats isn't too many - how do you know? He literally said it's too many to fast, so he thinks it is and probably has access to data that you don't.
Again, he's been here 6 months, give him a chance to get his ducks in a row and then let's see what he comes up with.
I agree with Risso here. If West Ham (*and Moyes ball!) can fill a 60k running track when there is competition in London from clubs such as Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, etc, we'd easily fill a shiny new North Stand with the catchment area we have at our disposal (*and impending Champions League football). What's he waiting for??
Under Emery, I can only see us improving, so demand isn't going to go away or drop off, it's almost certainly going to increase surely. I'd question why we've waited THIS long, not stop it entirely!
@usav - You seem to really be in Heck's corner on all of this. He's come in with a big reptutation, as a leader in his field, but can you honestly tell me one thing he has got right during his time at the club? Within 6 months, he's fucked the badge launch, vandalised the Holte and stopped the North Stand development. If he can make sweeping decisions like that, why is his priority not to stop the concourses streaming with piss?
First and foremost should be clear and concise communication, and he's even been fucking terrible at that. Nothing he has done so far has given me even a glimmer of confidence that he 'gets' this football club.
#OnBrand my arse.
Well said
Post by: Bad English on December 19, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
...when you retire you have a pension pot to full back on.Yes. A defensive management strategy is often advised when less that 8 years from retirement.*
*This does not constitute financial advice as if you took it from me you'd be living in the street in Newtown. ;-)
Post by: Clampy on December 19, 2023, 05:49:15 PM
Post by: Drummond on December 19, 2023, 05:50:05 PM
I don't really see the point in a massive new club shop. How about a decent kit first, and then having it available for purchase in the summer? I would guess that 99% of shirt sales are done over the internet anyway. We don't really have a high proprtion of daytrippers like Man U get for the Old Trafford megastore. I think I've been in once in the last 3 or 4 years, and it mostly seems to be full of people killing half an hour rather than filling their shopping bags.
If you've been in once in 3 or 4 years how on earth would you know what it's full of? ;)
Post by: Simon Page on December 19, 2023, 05:50:49 PM
We should move to Salford Park. We've built over a lake before, we can do it again.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 06:00:56 PM
I assume decisions like spending a third of a Rwanda on a building project isn't based on the whim of one man, which makes me wonder what's changed to make all the others involved in this shift their stance. And what gymnastics they'll do when the next man unveils his design for the new North Stand.
We should move to Salford Park. We've built over a lake before, we can do it again.
The Atairos investment timing can not be coincidental.
Post by: eamonn on December 19, 2023, 06:08:20 PM
The Champions League side of things only guarantees three home matches, though. There is only really properly decent money when you get to play in it regularly and start to see it reflected in your sponsorship deals.
The gate income from another 6,000 people in the North Stand is a piddling small amount.
What is the average spend per head predicted for the next two seasons in the North Stand - say £50?
£50 * 6,000 fans * 25 games (19 League + estimated 6 in various cups) = £7.5m per season
£15m revenue then for the next two seasons, with things kept as is.
But if we had gone through with the re-build, how long would it take to make back that £15m?
£60 per head (higher ticket prices/improved food & beverage offer etc.) * 25 games * 14,000 fans (8k extra compared to old capacity) = £21m generated in first season with new capacity.
Obviously pay-back on the reconstruction would have to be factored-in too but it seems clear that we could quickly make a lot more money than before. Heck's main reticence seems to be that he's not confident we can fill a 50k stadium 25 times a year.
Post by: paul_e on December 19, 2023, 06:11:18 PM
I understand the differing views on it. It wouldn't be an ideal time to knock down a stand if we're playing Champions League football, it would actually be a shame because fans would miss out and we'd lose revenue but like someone else said, we might only last a couple of games in it anyway if we did make it. If that's one of his reasons for halting it, I kind of get it. I'd have liked them to have gone ahead with though personally.
That's about where I am.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 06:11:47 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
You seem to be having almost a meltdown over this and I'm not sure why? He hasn't said we aren't going to address any of the issues you raised, he just said the current plans are being shelved. Also you are stating as fact that 10,000 seats isn't too many - how do you know? He literally said it's too many to fast, so he thinks it is and probably has access to data that you don't.
Again, he's been here 6 months, give him a chance to get his ducks in a row and then let's see what he comes up with.
It's not a meltdown, it's concern regarding the damage one individual, with no experience in English sport, appears to want to do to our club. It's short term thinking, and there's no good reason that's been presented for it. We need a bigger ground, and he's been one of the main individuals trumpeting the 30,000 person waiting list since he's been here. His communication is woeful, and so far absolutely nothing he's done could be said to have gone well.
He's starting to remind me of Tom Fox, who was a similarly big name executive with a big reputation but who actually turned out to be a complete simpleton.
Post by: Gareth on December 19, 2023, 06:15:16 PM
I wonder if part of the decision might be based on how few of the mythical thirty thousand have bought tickets since joining the queue.
I’d say that’s a huge bearing on it…potentially offering 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 of the list the chance to purchase tickets when it’s about 1 in 6 who have purchased tickets for themselves.
Also more televised games ahead…if we are to be a European teams there will be a lot more Sunday games where people have option to watch on box rather than pay 50/60/70 quid to be there
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 06:17:24 PM
I understand the differing views on it. It wouldn't be an ideal time to knock down a stand if we're playing Champions League football, it would actually be a shame because fans would miss out and we'd lose revenue but like someone else said, we might only last a couple of games in it anyway if we did make it. If that's one of his reasons for halting it, I kind of get it. I'd have liked them to have gone ahead with though personally.
That's about where I am.
There's never an ideal time. But all those grounds with much bigger capacities than ours aren't regretting the decision to build their stands now the increased income is coming in. A football stand in the Premier League is about as guaranteed to give you a return on your investment as it's possible to get. They'll happily spend £50m and £10m a year on wages for a player who might turn out to be shit and worth fuck all in three years, but add thouands of seats on that's going to increase revenue every year for the rest of time, no we won't bother with that. It's madness.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 06:19:49 PM
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 06:21:16 PM
It's not a meltdown, it's concern regarding the damage one individual, with no experience in English sport, appears to want to do to our club. It's short term thinking, and there's no good reason that's been presented for it. We need a bigger ground, and he's been one of the main individuals trumpeting the 30,000 person waiting list since he's been here. His communication is woeful, and so far absolutely nothing he's done could be said to have gone well.
Your first sentence right there seems so OTT to me, I don't even know where to begin with it. However, I am sure the overall reaction will filter back to the owners somehow and will lead to either a more prepared statement or comment with regards to the reasoning and the vision. I 100% agree that they do owe us that.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 19, 2023, 06:22:33 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 06:22:50 PM
All of our peers are going to have bigger, more modern grounds than we have.
We can't live on the atmosphere (which most of the time isn't even there) and history alone.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 06:23:01 PM
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 06:24:19 PM
I wonder if part of the decision might be based on how few of the mythical thirty thousand have bought tickets since joining the queue.
I said something similar earlier, I would hope his decision was somewhat data driven.
Post by: IFWaters on December 19, 2023, 06:24:45 PM
Personally if we're not at Villa Park then we're not really Aston Villa but if you were going to pick one location for a new stadium that would work it would be built on top of new street as a massive sphere covered in a billion pixels with the words to My Old Man.
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 06:25:36 PM
C’mon now Risso. You don’t honestly believe Chris Heck actually wants to do damage to our club. Which means the guys he works for also want to do damage to our club.
Exactly. NSWE are not going to let that happen - everyone here agrees with that.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 06:27:52 PM
1. We have 149 years of history and 125 years of that has been at Villa Park. Villa park, for 90% of its history (until the 2010s) has always been considered a special place. A place apart. A ground among the first rank in England. It has hosted a record number of cup semi finals etc. All owners of the club are, in the first instance, custodians of the club. In the 1920s it was trend-setting with bars and restaurants in the old trinity. In the 1970s the current North was a trend setter for the goal post roof and the executive boxed. A succession of owners since the 2000s have now allowed Villa Park to slip behind many other clubs. Lerner, Xia and now NSWE have allowed this to happen.
2. We have been talking about a new North Stand since about 1999. Wasn't it meant to happen after the new Trinity? It has been past its sell-by-date a long time. The facilities there are a joke and it is an eyesore from every direction. It is also the end with most space to do truly amazing things architecturally and restore the stadium to its place among the greatest. We have had record crowds since 2019 - if we can't bite the bullet now, and do it we never will. If we are thinking corporate What sort of business defers a key infrastructural investment at a time when business is booming???
3. Sorry, for me, the point about not wanting to play in front of three stands is a joke. If that's a legitimate reason for delaying nothing should ever be done! We have redeveloped the other three stands since 1994 and in Sept 1994 had one of the best atmospheres I can remember in front of a half built Holte End.
4. Communications. I am sorry, but the communications have been really poor since Hack arrived. The badge situation, the corporate in the Holte and now this. All very secretive, all very sudden and all quite perplexing. Tell us what is going on and why.
5. If they hadn't deferred it last year, and had gone ahead as planned it would probably be ready in time for Champions League in Sept 2024. Ooops!
6. They previously said they had considered moving and decided against it. If this is truly back to the drawing board they had better be careful what they wish for as a new stadium project would sap resources, energy and could really derail us while at the same time taking something special away from us.
7. Heck. hmmmm. Jury well and truly out, especially after seeing that clip art job he put on twitter earlier. We have seen before how one bad appointment (Tom Fox for example) can just sour things and I hope this isn't what we will be saying about Heck in years to come.
edit, nice to be aligned with Risso for once!
Post by: Clampy on December 19, 2023, 06:33:25 PM
Post by: The Moose on December 19, 2023, 06:34:26 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 06:34:45 PM
The ******.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 06:34:53 PM
Post by: Olneythelonely on December 19, 2023, 06:41:01 PM
“Too many seats too quickly” is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever heard. It’s nonsensical.
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 06:41:17 PM
That is spot on Villan82.
Absolutely. As for point 4, he's at it again today. I'd love to hear a plain English explanation to 'too many seats, too fast'.
EDIT: I see the point hasn't been lost on Risso.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 06:42:22 PM
AVFC Ltd does not own Villa Park, another NSWE company does.
Are Atairos buying into the entity that owns Villa Park, and if so, are they doing so with an aim to improve the stadium, whether it be new stand, new ground, whatever?
They must be buying into something, and if it''s not the ground, it is currently V-Sports stake in the Portuguese club, which isn't much.
Post by: The Moose on December 19, 2023, 06:42:33 PM
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 19, 2023, 06:42:51 PM
Next, we'll be seeing 'DEFENSE' pop up on the video screens when we're out of possesion during a match, directing us to shout it repeatedly in an NBA fashion! OK, need to stop now - Starting to echo a certain Mr Flint5tone! 😁
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 06:43:17 PM
“Too many seats too quickly” is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever heard. It’s nonsensical.
It has potential to be up there with Tom Fox's finest.
"Tim Sherwood's name was on a shortlist of one" and "That would be a false narrative".
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 06:43:23 PM
Yeah, suggesting he's causing damage is a little OTT.
He damaged our brand identity in the summer, and the overwhelming opinion on here is that he's damaged the Holte End with the addition of that terrace thing. Now this plan will damage our future revenue streams and long term competitiveness. I do recall Clamps, you saying I was being ridiculous when I suggested that going into administration under Tony Xia was a possibility. Remind me how that turned out.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 19, 2023, 06:43:43 PM
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 06:44:10 PM
They could demolish the North Stand and just add a few scaffolding poles, bolt a few seats on and see if they sell! Add a few more each game until they are happy - then put a roof on it! Sorted...
Don't give him ideas!
Post by: The Edge on December 19, 2023, 06:45:50 PM
Good. "Don't tell em Pike"Plus, our stadium has very little history left already now. It's 70s - 00s, aside from the location.
It's surprising how many away fans don't realise this.
I was listening to a football podcast recently and they discussed Villa Park, and the one guy said he was going there in a few weeks and he was really excited as it's such a historic ground etc etc, and then specifically said he was looking forward to seeing Archibald Leitch's work.
Good luck with that.
I also think a lot of away fans think the rear of the Holte End is 100 years old and a remnant of a historic part of the ground which has survived the years.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 06:46:50 PM
That is spot on Villan82.
Absolutely. As for point 4, he's at it again today. I'd love to hear a plain English explanation to 'too many seats, too fast'.
EDIT: I see the point hasn't been lost on Risso.
Thanks mate. Oh yeah, what Heck said today is dumb, really dumb. Either he thinks we're stupid or he is even more short sighted than Ellis was.
Why od why do we always get lumbered with these types in the high up positions.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 06:48:34 PM
Post by: Clampy on December 19, 2023, 06:49:02 PM
Yeah, suggesting he's causing damage is a little OTT.
He damaged our brand identity in the summer, and the overwhelming opinion on here is that he's damaged the Holte End with the addition of that terrace thing. Now this plan will damage our future revenue streams and long term competitiveness. I do recall Clamps, you saying I was being ridiculous when I suggested that going into administration under Tony Xia was a possibility. Remind me how that turned out.
You don't like being disagreed with do you, blimey calm yourself down. What the hells wrong with you?
I've already said I'd think they should have proceeded with it so it's not as if I'm totally backing what he's done.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 06:50:00 PM
Yeah, suggesting he's causing damage is a little OTT.
He damaged our brand identity in the summer, and the overwhelming opinion on here is that he's damaged the Holte End with the addition of that terrace thing. Now this plan will damage our future revenue streams and long term competitiveness. I do recall Clamps, you saying I was being ridiculous when I suggested that going into administration under Tony Xia was a possibility. Remind me how that turned out.
I strongly agree with Risso here.
Post by: Olneythelonely on December 19, 2023, 06:51:09 PM
I may have this arse about tit, but I could've sworn this guy's specialism was marketing. Like Alan said to Lynn, you couldn't present a cat.
“Some of these people have come from Lichfield.”
Post by: Drummond on December 19, 2023, 06:51:23 PM
My reading is that he thinks 10000 in one go is too many and that any change would be better being incremental. I don't like the sound of that, as the only real way is by filling in corners.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 19, 2023, 06:51:53 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 06:52:00 PM
Too many seats too fast. If you had to hazard a guess, what do you think he might mean?
My reading is that he thinks 10000 in one go is too many and that any change would be better being incremental. I don't like the sound of that, as the only real way is by filling in corners.
It smells a bit of Dougonomics. The cheapest way of doing things.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 06:53:12 PM
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 06:54:11 PM
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 06:54:55 PM
It’s a disaster-class in communication, both from what he does say and what he doesn’t.Yep. Tripe.
“Too many seats too quickly” is one of the most stupid things I’ve ever heard. It’s nonsensical.
Scary as he should be good at comms.
Something stinks.
Post by: TheMalandro on December 19, 2023, 06:56:43 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 19, 2023, 06:58:21 PM
You read my mind and I hate myself for thinking that given all that NSWE have done for us so far.Too many seats too fast. If you had to hazard a guess, what do you think he might mean?
My reading is that he thinks 10000 in one go is too many and that any change would be better being incremental. I don't like the sound of that, as the only real way is by filling in corners.
It smells a bit of Dougonomics. The cheapest way of doing things.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 06:59:36 PM
or knocking three stands down.
Cant see that given the notice we'd need to give to CPO all the houses and move the roads. But maybe it is and there is that 'can do' attitude we see in America.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 06:59:48 PM
I think he’s convinced the owners that spending big on one stand makes little sense. I think we are looking at either moving (most likely) or knocking three stands down.
He's been such a bad influence since the day he walked in. I am convinced he won't be here long but he will have held us back significantly and possibly cost Birmingham the Euros .
Post by: paul_e on December 19, 2023, 07:00:44 PM
I understand the differing views on it. It wouldn't be an ideal time to knock down a stand if we're playing Champions League football, it would actually be a shame because fans would miss out and we'd lose revenue but like someone else said, we might only last a couple of games in it anyway if we did make it. If that's one of his reasons for halting it, I kind of get it. I'd have liked them to have gone ahead with though personally.
That's about where I am.
There's never an ideal time. But all those grounds with much bigger capacities than ours aren't regretting the decision to build their stands now the increased income is coming in. A football stand in the Premier League is about as guaranteed to give you a return on your investment as it's possible to get. They'll happily spend £50m and £10m a year on wages for a player who might turn out to be shit and worth fuck all in three years, but add thouands of seats on that's going to increase revenue every year for the rest of time, no we won't bother with that. It's madness.
I agree but Heck is as detached as can be from fan base and is making decisions on a completely different basis to us. I suspect there's something in the numbers to suggest that, if we make the top 4 and get into the champions league, we'd be making a massive mistake to then immediately reduce the capacity for 2 years. I suspect what will happen is we'll implement everything we can to make it easier for the current crowd to spend more money, with better food and drink options, an expanded shop, etc so we can ride the wave of goodwill. I'd also expect us to use the time to review the plans and see if there are ways to go ahead with the work but without such an extended drop in seats or if there's any 'quick' fix options to raise capacity elsewhere so we can stay as close to the 40k+ mark as possible.
I don't like it but if you step back and are really cold about it I think it makes sense, if we get CL football. If we fall away it looks like a bad decision.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 07:02:50 PM
Post by: Clampy on December 19, 2023, 07:03:09 PM
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 07:04:22 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 19, 2023, 07:04:53 PM
Leaves three options imo:
- No redevelopment at all, despite the need for it. Could see the club doing this if CL revenues are imminent.
- They can redevelop the stand without demolishing it. No idea how, but Liverpool have just done similar.
- They've costed a new ground and it's cheaper in the long run. Any HS2 land going begging?
I've said it on here before, but I've just had a feeling for a while now that option 3 is being seriously considered. Might be wandering into conspiracy theory territory, but is it just a coincidence that this is announced not long after a new investment deal is announced.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 07:05:16 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 19, 2023, 07:05:34 PM
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 07:06:48 PM
Leaves three options imo:
- No redevelopment at all, despite the need for it. Could see the club doing this if CL revenues are imminent.
- They can redevelop the stand without demolishing it. No idea how, but Liverpool have just done similar.
- They've costed a new ground and it's cheaper in the long run. Any HS2 land going begging?
I've said it on here before, but I've just had a feeling for a while now that option 3 is being seriously considered. Might be wandering into conspiracy theory territory, but is it just a coincidence that this is announced not long after a new investment deal is announced.
We have acres of space behind the North Stand. They previously said they had considered movign and decided against. But with flip flop heck around who knows.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 07:07:34 PM
Leaves three options imo:
- No redevelopment at all, despite the need for it. Could see the club doing this if CL revenues are imminent.
- They can redevelop the stand without demolishing it. No idea how, but Liverpool have just done similar.
- They've costed a new ground and it's cheaper in the long run. Any HS2 land going begging?
I've said it on here before, but I've just had a feeling for a while now that option 3 is being seriously considered. Might be wandering into conspiracy theory territory, but is it just a coincidence that this is announced not long after a new investment deal is announced.
The thing that really, really worries me is that it lines up with US investors in both us and that lot, the council being skint and wanting to maximise land values.
Post by: BC Villain on December 19, 2023, 07:09:07 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 07:10:29 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 07:11:53 PM
I understand the differing views on it. It wouldn't be an ideal time to knock down a stand if we're playing Champions League football, it would actually be a shame because fans would miss out and we'd lose revenue but like someone else said, we might only last a couple of games in it anyway if we did make it. If that's one of his reasons for halting it, I kind of get it. I'd have liked them to have gone ahead with though personally.
That's about where I am.
There's never an ideal time. But all those grounds with much bigger capacities than ours aren't regretting the decision to build their stands now the increased income is coming in. A football stand in the Premier League is about as guaranteed to give you a return on your investment as it's possible to get. They'll happily spend £50m and £10m a year on wages for a player who might turn out to be shit and worth fuck all in three years, but add thouands of seats on that's going to increase revenue every year for the rest of time, no we won't bother with that. It's madness.
I agree but Heck is as detached as can be from fan base and is making decisions on a completely different basis to us. I suspect there's something in the numbers to suggest that, if we make the top 4 and get into the champions league, we'd be making a massive mistake to then immediately reduce the capacity for 2 years. I suspect what will happen is we'll implement everything we can to make it easier for the current crowd to spend more money, with better food and drink options, an expanded shop, etc so we can ride the wave of goodwill. I'd also expect us to use the time to review the plans and see if there are ways to go ahead with the work but without such an extended drop in seats or if there's any 'quick' fix options to raise capacity elsewhere so we can stay as close to the 40k+ mark as possible.
I don't like it but if you step back and are really cold about it I think it makes sense, if we get CL football. If we fall away it looks like a bad decision.
Even if you get to the final of the Champions League, how many extra home games is that, 6? So if we qualify two years running, AND we get to the final both years, we'd miss out on the revenue for 12 games. (Plus the usual league games of course). But now look at the revenue for league and European games for years 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc, plus all the summer concerts and what not.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 07:12:17 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 19, 2023, 07:13:06 PM
Would they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
I hope not. We're not Liverpool.
Post by: curiousorange on December 19, 2023, 07:13:12 PM
I drove through town today and past the old wholesale markets site that is now called Smithfield. It's still a huge derelict site and not a spade has been put in the ground regarding the proposed developments there. They used it for the commonwealth games two years ago and it held various events last summer. It got me thinking that's all. I would HATE us to leave Villa Park full stop.
I have no idea if it's big enough for a stadium, but a city centre ground negates the need for road and rail links for fans.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 07:15:29 PM
Post by: BC Villain on December 19, 2023, 07:16:31 PM
Would they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
I hope not. We're not Liverpool.
I'd imagine nothing will be off the table. Did Arsenal not do that as well?
Post by: TheMalandro on December 19, 2023, 07:18:13 PM
He’s a bottler or a bullshitter.
Not sure why he’d be either of those, it’s not his money and there appears to be plenty of it to be spent.
Post by: paul_e on December 19, 2023, 07:24:37 PM
Yes Paul but I am almost 35 years watching this club spurn golden opportunities to reach its potential and this Heck announcement has an all too familiar ring to it.
I get that and if the guy above Heck was Doug or Lerner I'd understand the worry but I just don't think this pair would let things go that way so I'm holding to the fact that Heck has only been able to announce this because he's convinced them that we'll increase revenues faster, and more sustainably, by doing it differently.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 07:25:25 PM
@usav - You seem to really be in Heck's corner on all of this. He's come in with a big reptutation, as a leader in his field, but can you honestly tell me one thing he has got right during his time at the club? Within 6 months, he's fucked the badge launch, vandalised the Holte and stopped the North Stand development. If he can make sweeping decisions like that, why is his priority not to stop the concourses streaming with piss?
First and foremost should be clear and concise communication, and he's even been fucking terrible at that. Nothing he has done so far has given me even a glimmer of confidence that he 'gets' this football club.
#OnBrand my arse.
This.
And the arrogance that comes with his piss poor communication leaves open serious questions about what he is actually doing & why he is doing it...
Post by: Pat Mustard on December 19, 2023, 07:27:31 PM
I drove through town today and past the old wholesale markets site that is now called Smithfield. It's still a huge derelict site and not a spade has been put in the ground regarding the proposed developments there. They used it for the commonwealth games two years ago and it held various events last summer. It got me thinking that's all. I would HATE us to leave Villa Park full stop.
I have no idea if it's big enough for a stadium, but a city centre ground negates the need for road and rail links for fans.
That whole area is already masterplanned, and a stadium there would be terrible for the redevelopment of the city. The whole idea is that Smithfield will link the centre of town with Digbeth and beyond, a stadium would act as a massive wall that would come to life every couple of weeks at best.
Only just watched the Heck interview and it’s even worse than I thought. A load of meaningless bollocks, devoid of proper detail or cohesive vision. The most telling point for me though is this idea that 42k is adequate. It’s no coincidence that almost all of the clubs in the top 10 now have bigger grounds than us, and 3 are still increasing capacity - Liverpool and Man City already underway, and West Ham are applying to finally use their stadium to its full 67k capacity.
At precisely the point we are finally punching our weight on the pitch, we are getting left behind off it. Perception matters when it comes to things like this, and pretty soon we could well have a stadium smaller than more than half of the Premier League which doesn’t help us attract the support, coverage and ultimately players we need.
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 07:33:15 PM
There are known knowns, things we know that we know; and there are known unknowns, things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns, things we do not know we don't know.
Ha! You may actually have a point, for example what's the story with the Council and costs for Witton station, have the costs of building materials increased beyond the expected budget, how long do we expect the redevelopment to be on hold, are we waiting for a time when Villa aren't playing in the CL, are there no Villa fans who don't have season tickets and want to see games at Villa Park, have we abandoned attracting new supporters and what will happen if on the pitch we dominate English and European football for the next 50 years? Will it still be on hold?
My kingdom for a straight answer.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 07:34:42 PM
They have done nothing to suggest that the current state of VP is the height of their ambitions.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 07:36:35 PM
Even if you get to the final of the Champions League, how many extra home games is that, 6? So if we qualify two years running, AND we get to the final both years, we'd miss out on the revenue for 12 games. (Plus the usual league games of course). But now look at the revenue for league and European games for years 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 etc, plus all the summer concerts and what not.
Exactly.
Champions League revenue isn't through matchday receipts, it is through tv and sponsorship. I can't believe he hasn't worked that one out.
Post by: VillaTim on December 19, 2023, 07:37:17 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 07:37:24 PM
There are known knowns, things we know that we know; and there are known unknowns, things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns, things we do not know we don't know.
Ha! You may actually have a point, for example what's the story with the Council and costs for Witton station, have the costs of building materials increased beyond the expected budget, how long do we expect the redevelopment to be on hold, are we waiting for a time when Villa aren't playing in the CL, are there no Villa fans who don't have season tickets and want to see games at Villa Park, have we abandoned attracting new supporters and what will happen if on the pitch we dominate English and European football for the next 50 years? Will it still be on hold?
My kingdom for a straight answer.
The Council are nothing whatsoever to do with paying for the station upgrade, nothing. And even if they were, this is the period in history where they are as unlikely to be able to as ever.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 07:37:46 PM
Yeah, suggesting he's causing damage is a little OTT.
He damaged our brand identity in the summer, and the overwhelming opinion on here is that he's damaged the Holte End with the addition of that terrace thing. Now this plan will damage our future revenue streams and long term competitiveness. I do recall Clamps, you saying I was being ridiculous when I suggested that going into administration under Tony Xia was a possibility. Remind me how that turned out.
I just think he has an arrogance about him that means that things are his way or none at all & he doesn't give two fucks what the fans think...
I wondered about the branding when he came in & bulldozed it completely whether he was so insecure that he couldn't have a "Perslow project" running while he saw himself in charge.
Im starting to think more & more that is the case..
Post by: jon collett on December 19, 2023, 07:38:40 PM
Agreed although nothing the owners have done suggest they are going to be happy with second best, maybe there is a misstep from Heck or the owners have chosen the wrong guy here.
They have done nothing to suggest that the current state of VP is the height of their ambitions.
I was thinking this.
It’s the first misstep for a while.
If Heck is not up to it then surely they are going to notice? Most other recruitment has been spot on!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 07:42:21 PM
This after saying 10,000 extra seats is "too much" when, for literally every other club in our peer group, it is not.
It just stinks of small time thinking, and this club more than most of its size has a long history of this, which explains why today's interview clusterfuck is having such an impact.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 07:45:28 PM
He really is Mr momentum killer isn't he.
Edit: I see they hadn't the guts to post the interview on the social channels where they no doubt knew it would get pelters.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 07:46:56 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on December 19, 2023, 07:48:42 PM
It just stinks of small time thinking, and this club more than most of its size has a long history of this, which explains why today's interview clusterfuck is having such an impact.
Without info to the contrary, this seems to be it
Post by: Stu on December 19, 2023, 07:48:49 PM
One of my problems with Heck is not that I don't think he knows what he is doing - on the contrary, I bet he does.
It is that he just is an absolute fucking loose cannon with PR. The cack-handed excuses made for the badge fiasco - honestly, he must think we're fucking idiots to believe that one year trial thing was their plan from the start, the turning the FAB meetings into everyone listening to him tell us what the ultimate truth is and bad luck if you don't like it, and now this, announcing the halt on the new stand buried away in some pointless fucking in-house interview and then blathering on about focusing on the customers we already have.
Really, I am not too sure stopping bogs over flowing with piss and painting the inside of stands is really something you need to halt all your other ambition to put right.
There are thousands of people who sit in the north stand who have thought they'd have to move and maybe not even get a seat for the next two years. They've heard absolutely nothing about it addressed directly to them from the club, and although they might be happy with these developments, they deserved to be the first to know.
Heck thus far has shown us lots of "we won't be doing that" and hardly any "this is what we are going to do".
Yeah, the messaging has been poor and high handed even if he makes good points re sacking off the expansion of VP for the foreseeable. An American way of doing things maybe? I don't know, but the info cascades have been a bit insensitive.
He's going to have a shock if he thinks Westminster will spend any money around here though, regardless of whatever business case he presents in the future.
Post by: The Edge on December 19, 2023, 07:48:56 PM
What i find so strange is , why announce it today ? 2 days before we could be potentially top of the league , and with all the goodwill around the team & manager , i find the off field action too reminicent of dougs time ffs , so smalltime even the noses are taking the piss on shaWhat you doing on there? Hope you've had your vaccinations
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 19, 2023, 07:52:19 PM
The extra cost of hydraulics on a movable structure should be far less than the income lost from a reduced capacity for two years as well as not losing the atmosphere temporarily with a 3 sided stadium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_relocation
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 07:52:33 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 07:53:01 PM
Build a new bigger stand on the mass of ground available behind the existing north stand. Start pretty well as soon as you like. When completed as soon as the season is finished, you knock down the old north stand and using hydraulic lifts move the new structure forward the 80 metres or so into place. Existing technology has moved larger structures greater distances than what this would involve.
The extra cost of hydraulics on a movable structure should be far less than the income lost from a reduced capacity for two years as well as not losing the atmosphere temporarily with a 3 sided stadium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_relocation
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and suggest it's more complicated than that.
Post by: jon collett on December 19, 2023, 07:53:13 PM
And what great timing, on pitch screams ambition and progress, off pitch, it's him and his 42k will do shtick.
For whatever reason I think they thought they had to sneak it out the week before Xmas!
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 07:54:21 PM
And what great timing, on pitch screams ambition and progress, off pitch, it's him and his 42k will do shtick.
For whatever reason I think they thought they had to sneak it out the week before Xmas!
As I posted earlier it is almost a year to the day since they uploaded the 'flythrough the North Stand development video'. It was posted on 22 December 2022.
Post by: RamboandBruno on December 19, 2023, 07:55:20 PM
When I first heard this news I was relieved. My season ticket is on the front row of the North Stand Upper. I've got a great view, really like the fans around me and can obtain extra tickets near me for friends (both members and more casual supporters). I had braced myself for losing all of these benefits for two years at the very time we seem to be on the cusp of something special.
However, the talk of moving to the NEC has me worried. I've been going to VP for over sixty years and I love the Bartons before hand, the walk to the ground, the rituals, the memories. I actually find it easier to get away from VP than from my neighbouring clubs; Forest and Leicester.
A few years ago I went to see Atletico Madrid in the Vicente Calderon stadium. It was a bit like Newcastle as you could walk from the city centre, enjoying bars and restaurants on the way and feel the atmosphere growing as you approached the ground.
Now they've moved to a modern bowl miles from the city centre, near the airport and in a totally nondescript location. I really don't want to be watching the game in a place like that.
Villa Park till I die.
Completely and utterly this. If we ever moved, that may be me done, not that it would matter to anyone but me probably. We have history in the bricks and mortar of our grounds that most if not all of those clubs that have moved to soulless bowls have ever had. The ground really is a massive part of what makes us who we are.
And I’ve been to Athletico Madrids new ground as well and it is just that a large, initially impressive, ultimately soulless place in the middle of fecking nowhere.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on December 19, 2023, 07:56:17 PM
Post by: usav on December 19, 2023, 07:57:31 PM
@usav - You seem to really be in Heck's corner on all of this.
Not at all, I'm just not into hysterics. I said they owed us at the very least an official club announcement on the reasoning and what the new plans were going to be when they have them.
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 19, 2023, 07:58:10 PM
There are known knowns, things we know that we know; and there are known unknowns, things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns, things we do not know we don't know.
Ha! You may actually have a point, for example what's the story with the Council and costs for Witton station, have the costs of building materials increased beyond the expected budget, how long do we expect the redevelopment to be on hold, are we waiting for a time when Villa aren't playing in the CL, are there no Villa fans who don't have season tickets and want to see games at Villa Park, have we abandoned attracting new supporters and what will happen if on the pitch we dominate English and European football for the next 50 years? Will it still be on hold?
My kingdom for a straight answer.
The Council are nothing whatsoever to do with paying for the station upgrade, nothing. And even if they were, this is the period in history where they are as unlikely to be able to as ever.
I get that but who is responsible, from what I understand Transport for West Midlands which falls under the WMCA. Grants both local and national are available via the Transport for West Midlands but I haven't heard a thing about the possibility. BCC do have a voice in who is appointed onto the TFWM committee. Lost in red tape? I have no idea.
Post by: Olneythelonely on December 19, 2023, 08:18:00 PM
There are known knowns, things we know that we know; and there are known unknowns, things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns, things we do not know we don't know.
Ha! You may actually have a point, for example what's the story with the Council and costs for Witton station, have the costs of building materials increased beyond the expected budget, how long do we expect the redevelopment to be on hold, are we waiting for a time when Villa aren't playing in the CL, are there no Villa fans who don't have season tickets and want to see games at Villa Park, have we abandoned attracting new supporters and what will happen if on the pitch we dominate English and European football for the next 50 years? Will it still be on hold?
My kingdom for a straight answer.
The Council are nothing whatsoever to do with paying for the station upgrade, nothing. And even if they were, this is the period in history where they are as unlikely to be able to as ever.
I get that but who is responsible, from what I understand Transport for West Midlands which falls under the WMCA. Grants both local and national are available via the Transport for West Midlands but I haven't heard a thing about the possibility. BCC do have a voice in who is appointed onto the TFWM committee. Lost in red tape? I have no idea.
Network Rail owns the railway property. Responsibility sits with whoever wants something done.
Post by: Gareth on December 19, 2023, 08:22:52 PM
Would they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
Please no! Kick people out of their homes? This is supposed to be a football club rooted in its community not one rooting out its community
Post by: paul_e on December 19, 2023, 08:29:41 PM
Is the LDV site alongside the spine rd?
Yep, and a trainline.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 19, 2023, 08:30:30 PM
Post by: LeeB on December 19, 2023, 08:38:37 PM
Is the LDV site alongside the spine rd?
Yep, and a trainline.
If they bring back Castle Brom station as proposed that would 1 or 2 stops for me to the Villa.
I'm very much in the 'move the Villa closer to me' camp.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 19, 2023, 08:40:39 PM
I drove through town today and past the old wholesale markets site that is now called Smithfield. It's still a huge derelict site and not a spade has been put in the ground regarding the proposed developments there. They used it for the commonwealth games two years ago and it held various events last summer. It got me thinking that's all. I would HATE us to leave Villa Park full stop.
I have no idea if it's big enough for a stadium, but a city centre ground negates the need for road and rail links for fans.
Let's not forget that people like Heck don't have the emotional link to Villa Park that we do. People like him would probably.look at the number of Premier League teams that have moved to new stadiums over the past couple of decades and see the opportunities it might present, especially if it was in the city centre.
I can see where he is coming from about timing, it is probably the worst time in decades for us to knock down a stand and have a reduced capacity for two years. It's tough to see when such a window would arise now for something on that scale to be done though. It would have been a bold move, but when we were in the Championship.was the time to do it or to try and link it in with the Commonwealth Games when it was here. I suppose the only thing with that was they only temporarily upgraded the Alexander Stadium, whereas they built new stadiums in Manchester and London when events were there. If a similar 40,000 + stadium had been built in Birmingham for the games, we could have potentially moved in there for a couple of seasons while the work was done. There are no other sports grounds big enough in the West Midlands and even with one stand missing, we would still have the biggest capacity of any of the football teams in the Midlands.
I would be loathe for us to ever leave Villa Park and it would have to.be something spectacular (like the Spurs ground) in the city centre for the thought even to be entertained. The NEC would be a non-startrer as although it probably ticks a lot of boxes for the likes of Heck, it is too far away and would feel too removed.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 19, 2023, 08:44:39 PM
Maybe Heck is conditioning everyone gradually for a ground move . Run Villa Park into the ground, "vandalise" sacred areas such as the Holte with Tererace View and Lower Grounds buffet nonsense , and pretty soon everyone will be less precious about moving
Adopting the Tories tactics with the NHS 👍🏼
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 19, 2023, 08:46:27 PM
When I first heard this news I was relieved. My season ticket is on the front row of the North Stand Upper. I've got a great view, really like the fans around me and can obtain extra tickets near me for friends (both members and more casual supporters). I had braced myself for losing all of these benefits for two years at the very time we seem to be on the cusp of something special.
However, the talk of moving to the NEC has me worried. I've been going to VP for over sixty years and I love the Bartons before hand, the walk to the ground, the rituals, the memories. I actually find it easier to get away from VP than from my neighbouring clubs; Forest and Leicester.
A few years ago I went to see Atletico Madrid in the Vicente Calderon stadium. It was a bit like Newcastle as you could walk from the city centre, enjoying bars and restaurants on the way and feel the atmosphere growing as you approached the ground.
Now they've moved to a modern bowl miles from the city centre, near the airport and in a totally nondescript location. I really don't want to be watching the game in a place like that.
Villa Park till I die.
Completely and utterly this. If we ever moved, that may be me done, not that it would matter to anyone but me probably. We have history in the bricks and mortar of our grounds that most if not all of those clubs that have moved to soulless bowls have ever had. The ground really is a massive part of what makes us who we are.
And I’ve been to Athletico Madrids new ground as well and it is just that a large, initially impressive, ultimately soulless place in the middle of fecking nowhere.
We're not the only club who has history within the bricks and mortar of Villa Park. Hosting more semi-finals than any other club ground, there are a lot of fans of other teams who also have fond memories of our historic football ground.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 08:47:16 PM
Post by: boozey182 on December 19, 2023, 08:56:51 PM
A few thoughts, for what they are worth.
This surely is linked way to the Artimus buy in. As we don't know the investment etc - it might be that pausing makes sense as our Third owner has an input.
The next 2 years could be some of the most important in the clubs history. Realistically, we will never have a better chance to break into the top 4 and establish ourselves there. Champions League, 150th year - potentially the club think we could be going "Global" much sooner than expected, and they don't want to risk that. Realistically if we don't see success over the next 2 years - Unai will leave (might well do even if we do). But I cant see him sticking if we don't keep progressing.
The concern over adding too many seats to fast, suggests to me that Heck wants to focus on revenue per head. I think this is because, there attempts to offer premium match day experience suggest there is not the demand. That combined with the fact that this 30K waiting list are very unlikely to buy a season ticket. CL football will be far more profitable than extra seats - so maybe they want to avoid risking negative impacts on performance.
I think Heck seems like everything is his way or not at all. The mess we have made of things like the rebrand shows if it's not what he thinks is 100% right he won't put his name to it.
Was Purslow pushing for the stadium? Was it a vanity project which didn't add up quite as much as we thought. I do wonder if we would really fill 52k every week given (or at least if we could have under Gerrard for example). Maybe the idea is lets not risk short term success as the next two years could set us up for the next 10 years
I would imagine, Heck also wants time to come to his own conclusions over what the right next step is. he may end up coming to the same point as Purslow did.
So I think with all the above they have decided to focus on smaller projects with more immediate short-term benefit.
The way things are being announced to the fans is far from ideal - no detail or explanation in lots of instances seemingly misleading.
I think this (the bit in bold) is the key to it, and I think there is a chance that we are reading too much into all of this. Myself included, because my first reaction when I saw the interview was "well, that probably means we're off somewhere else".
He spoke at length about the 150 year anniversary. Didn't he say something like "do something never done before in football"? I have no idea what that entails, but I could see it being his personal mission to make it special, and spectacular. If I was being unkind, I would say vanity project, but I won't. But, maybe that coupled with potentially getting in the 'Champions' League for the 'first' time, might be deemed enough reason to keep the capacity to a maximum for at least another year? We've also got the chaotic Council situation, which even if they're not directly involved in the trains etc, might still have to be involved in the construction? Closing roads etc. (I am out of my depth here, but I would imagine they'd play some kind of role?). Maybe the club just want to explore other options - maybe of keeping some seats available while construction starts so we don't lose as much revenue? Maybe wanting further assurances about transport before they commit, or maybe exploring other transport solutions? All that put together might be enough to think, let's just not rush into this right now, and make sure we get this right. He's only been in the job six months or so, and he probably won't make a bigger decision.
The problem is, yet again, the communication. The 'too many seats too soon' is nonsense. I've been trying to get tickets for the matches over Christmas for some friends and it's basically impossible if they're not members. While there may not be 30,000 willing buyers on the waiting list, there will be enough to fill a new North Stand - I'm certain of that. If we were to qualify for the Champions League, we could fill much more, even if it was say a few thousand 'tourists' every week. I don't buy that it would be too much, and i don't think it stands up to the slightest amount of scrutiny.
When you do an interview that you have set up, and basically scripted, only for most people to have far more questions than before they watched it, I would suggest that it probably wasn't done very well. He doesn't know who he is talking to, and it's coming across that he doesn't really care who he is talking to. He's saying what he wants to say, so deal with it. Maybe that sort of stuff doesn't really matter to most people, but from the response he's getting on here, it matters to quite a few of us.
I've seen a couple of tweets from the Mail reporter stressing that there are no plans to move from Villa Park, which may well be the entire truth. But there is so little trust between the fans and the board (or Heck) at the moment that the more I see it being refuted, the more I think it probably is exactly what is being planned. Surely there is someone at the club that is capable of communicating with fans like we're adults?
Post by: tomd2103 on December 19, 2023, 08:57:13 PM
Build a new bigger stand on the mass of ground available behind the existing north stand. Start pretty well as soon as you like. When completed as soon as the season is finished, you knock down the old north stand and using hydraulic lifts move the new structure forward the 80 metres or so into place. Existing technology has moved larger structures greater distances than what this would involve.
The extra cost of hydraulics on a movable structure should be far less than the income lost from a reduced capacity for two years as well as not losing the atmosphere temporarily with a 3 sided stadium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_relocation
I thought it has already been said that this isn't an option and the North Stand will have to be knocked down first?
Post by: Steve67 on December 19, 2023, 09:01:18 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 19, 2023, 09:10:08 PM
I can see where he is coming from about timing, it is probably the worst time in decades for us to knock down a stand and have a reduced capacity for two years. It's tough to see when such a window would arise now for something on that scale to be done though.
I can see why possibly knocking down the stand in our first season or two in the CL might not be desirable, so maybe the exceptional start to the season has been a factor. Chelski have done fine in the CL over a couple of decades with a smaller stadium than ours. If in 2-3 years we're continually qualifying for the CL, and our sponsorship and shirt deals have shot up in value, we may be in a better place to have a reduced capacity for a season or two.
Post by: langleylions on December 19, 2023, 09:13:25 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 19, 2023, 09:15:45 PM
Build a new bigger stand on the mass of ground available behind the existing north stand. Start pretty well as soon as you like. When completed as soon as the season is finished, you knock down the old north stand and using hydraulic lifts move the new structure forward the 80 metres or so into place. Existing technology has moved larger structures greater distances than what this would involve.It's a nice idea but totally impractical.
The extra cost of hydraulics on a movable structure should be far less than the income lost from a reduced capacity for two years as well as not losing the atmosphere temporarily with a 3 sided stadium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_relocation
Post by: Steve67 on December 19, 2023, 09:16:10 PM
So are we giving up on hosting euro 2028 games then , i cant see that being good for our profile
Unless we are playing Champs League football?
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 09:18:17 PM
But what he said was too many seats too soon.I can see where he is coming from about timing, it is probably the worst time in decades for us to knock down a stand and have a reduced capacity for two years. It's tough to see when such a window would arise now for something on that scale to be done though.
I can see why possibly knocking down the stand in our first season or two in the CL might not be desirable, so maybe the exceptional start to the season has been a factor. Chelski have done fine in the CL over a couple of decades with a smaller stadium than ours. If in 2-3 years we're continually qualifying for the CL, and our sponsorship and shirt deals have shot up in value, we may be in a better place to have a reduced capacity for a season or two.
He could have said exactly what you said, he didn’t.
This guy has form, remember what he said about the badge, no one bought that either because it was bullshit.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 19, 2023, 09:19:44 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
Spot on.
Post by: London Villan on December 19, 2023, 09:20:42 PM
Post by: TheMalandro on December 19, 2023, 09:21:44 PM
Build a new bigger stand on the mass of ground available behind the existing north stand. Start pretty well as soon as you like. When completed as soon as the season is finished, you knock down the old north stand and using hydraulic lifts move the new structure forward the 80 metres or so into place. Existing technology has moved larger structures greater distances than what this would involve.It's a nice idea but totally impractical.
The extra cost of hydraulics on a movable structure should be far less than the income lost from a reduced capacity for two years as well as not losing the atmosphere temporarily with a 3 sided stadium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_relocation
O ye, of little faith. We are doing this AND the subterranean pitch.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 19, 2023, 09:22:45 PM
Yes worth repeating and shows up the bullshit that Heck has come out with.He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
Spot on.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 19, 2023, 09:38:32 PM
The Champions League side of things only guarantees three home matches, though. There is only really properly decent money when you get to play in it regularly and start to see it reflected in your sponsorship deals.
The gate income from another 6,000 people in the North Stand is a piddling small amount.
5 from next year.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 19, 2023, 09:51:51 PM
I asked this earlier but, once again, re the Atairos investment. They said it will not impact ownership of AVFC, it will be about V-Sports, and helping them build infrastructure.
AVFC Ltd does not own Villa Park, another NSWE company does.
Are Atairos buying into the entity that owns Villa Park, and if so, are they doing so with an aim to improve the stadium, whether it be new stand, new ground, whatever?
They must be buying into something, and if it''s not the ground, it is currently V-Sports stake in the Portuguese club, which isn't much.
As far as I can see from the press release, they are buying into V Sports, which wholly owns AVFC. So basically they are co-owners.
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 09:56:40 PM
Post by: DeKuip on December 19, 2023, 10:01:36 PM
Americans failing to understand us British football fans and our ways and traditions maybe? I imagine Heck has had a bit of a shock that we’ve moaned like fuck about Terrace View & Lower Grounds and refused to pay the £80 or whatever it costs for that, yet so many of us shelled out about the cost of half a season ticket on a trip last week to watch a match from the “comforts” of a cage in the sky with portaloos… and loved it!
They just don’t get us.
Post by: algy on December 19, 2023, 10:05:57 PM
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 10:06:07 PM
£10,000 is the cost per additional seat now, up from £4,000 pre-pandemic. Its not going to get any cheaper.
We have significantly wealthy owners and now we're in bed with significantly wealthy (infrastructure providers) funders.
Commercial revenue has grown, with more and more corporate being crammed in every possible space, but we've reached capacity and we are instead looking at adding the warehouse, rather than new areas. Largely because there's nowhere to add new offerings too. Which contradicts the aim to grow, making the first paragraph all the more puzzling.
We have transport issues, but they're not contingent on planning and frankly, if it's built, people will come and go, just more slowly than they'd like.
He describes plans as being thoughtful. What a strangely deliberate phrase.
It's all very confusing and doesn't ring true. We haven't had the whole truth or anything close to it.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 10:21:51 PM
Guarantee we will rue the day he walked in
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 10:22:09 PM
Tommy Jordan needs to get his fucking act together and seriously improve the messaging because it looks very much like having managed to finally look like a club going places we have stumbled into Ellis era corner shop territory.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 10:24:30 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 19, 2023, 10:28:45 PM
Build a new bigger stand on the mass of ground available behind the existing north stand. Start pretty well as soon as you like. When completed as soon as the season is finished, you knock down the old north stand and using hydraulic lifts move the new structure forward the 80 metres or so into place. Existing technology has moved larger structures greater distances than what this would involve.
The extra cost of hydraulics on a movable structure should be far less than the income lost from a reduced capacity for two years as well as not losing the atmosphere temporarily with a 3 sided stadium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_relocation
I thought it has already been said that this isn't an option and the North Stand will have to be knocked down first?
It has.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 10:32:31 PM
The newest part of our ground is now nudging 25 years old, and the north stand almost 45 years.
It's just mindblowingly small time and unambitious. It would be bad enough had we just talked about rebuilding and then not done it, but we've had it designed, got planning approval for it, done the big splashes and fly throughs on the web site, said when we were going to start the work - and then, just like that, almost as an aside in an in house interview, it's dropped.
Not sure on what basis we should trust anything Heck comes up with. I think that's the most worrying thing, a lack of trust (and transparency).
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 10:34:45 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 19, 2023, 10:39:08 PM
Personally, I think it’d be ridiculous playing our 150th anniversary season in the middle of a building site. We’re not Small Heath - we need 4 stands for that.
That's also a good point, and hadn't crossed my mind.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 10:39:35 PM
Would they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
I hope not. We're not Liverpool.
Isn't the issue with Liverpool that they bought the houses piecemeal then let the street go to the dogs to try to force the last few people out. At least with a compulsory purchase order, everybody knows where they stand.
Post by: BC Villain on December 19, 2023, 10:39:53 PM
Would they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
Please no! Kick people out of their homes? This is supposed to be a football club rooted in its community not one rooting out its community
I doubt anyone would it. However if NSWE have long term ambitions that involve keeping the club at Villa Park, then a CPO could potentially be the only viable way to do it.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 10:42:50 PM
Personally, I think it’d be ridiculous playing our 150th anniversary season in the middle of a building site. We’re not Small Heath - we need 4 stands for that.
Honestly, what difference would that make? The new stand would be there to make our future better. After the first few weeks who's really going to care about the 150 year anniversary anyway? Or if the anniversary really is that important, just delay the plans for 12 months then, instead of cancelling them.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 10:43:45 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 10:44:13 PM
Personally, I think it’d be ridiculous playing our 150th anniversary season in the middle of a building site. We’re not Small Heath - we need 4 stands for that.
Honestly, what difference would that make? The new stand would be there to make our future better. After the first few weeks who's really going to care about the 150 year anniversary anyway? Or if the anniversary really is that important, just delay the plans for 12 months then, instead of cancelling them.
Another case of milking our history instead of moving forward.
It's not a great look in terms of corporate leadership to have poured so much effort and attention into expanding the ground and then randomly shit a brick because we're doing well for a change.
It was always going to be our 150th anniversary when we planned to demolish the stand. It's not like they've just discovered it.
Post by: Villan82 on December 19, 2023, 10:44:18 PM
Personally, I think it’d be ridiculous playing our 150th anniversary season in the middle of a building site. We’re not Small Heath - we need 4 stands for that.
Honestly, what difference would that make? The new stand would be there to make our future better. After the first few weeks who's really going to care about the 150 year anniversary anyway? Or if the anniversary really is that important, just delay the plans for 12 months then, instead of cancelling them.
it did us no harm in the mid 90s when the ground had two sides rebuilt or in 2000-01 when the new Trinity went up. Honestly, why are people swallowing Hecks bullshit?
Post by: andyh on December 19, 2023, 10:58:55 PM
We don’t know him.
We don’t know what he’s about or the plans the club has……yet.
Do we have to know everything and know it now?
Can’t we let the bloke get his feet under the table. Unravel the decisions of the previous CEO or whatever Purslow role was, and see what develops?
The bloke has obviously risen to the top of his particular tree because I presume he has a talent and skill for his role. I have utter faith that Nas and Wes brought him for completely the right reasons and that they don’t think he’s a liar or bullshitter.
I am not so naive as not to be sceptical, but bloody hell, let’s give the bloke a chance before decrying him as the devil.
Post by: Bad English on December 19, 2023, 11:02:18 PM
I hope you're proud of yourself Mr Heck. You've RUINED Christmas for millions of young Villa fans around the world.Well you know, you do the same at most matches but we have your back.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 11:03:34 PM
I find it incredulous that people can call a bloke a bullshitter, liar etc etc all on the basis one short interview.
We don’t know him.
We don’t know what he’s about or the plans the club has……yet.
Do we have to know everything and know it now?
Can’t we let the bloke get his feet under the table. Unravel the decisions of the previous CEO or whatever Purslow role was, and see what develops?
The bloke has obviously risen to the top of his particular tree because I presume he has a talent and skill for his role. I have utter faith that Nas and Wes brought him for completely the right reasons and that they don’t think he’s a liar or bullshitter.
I am not so naive as not to be sceptical, but bloody hell, let’s give the bloke a chance before decrying him as the devil.
Yeah judge him on what he's done so far.
The badge clusterfuck.
The Terrace View defliing the Holte for a few extra quid.
The Lower Grounds taking away what we had and charging top dollar for it.
Casually, almost as an aside, binning the expansion of the ground.
Those are all things he's done in his time there.
He'd learn a lot from not just saying "We're not doing that" and then explaining what we would be doing. The badge fiasco has led to some barely plausible "consulting with the fans" rubbush (which is what we did in the first place) and the expansion thing is "it's too much to add 10,000 seats right now" and zero explanation of what we're doing instead beyond some laughibly small time shit about turning the old academy building into a bar.
Brilliant.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 11:04:03 PM
Post by: andyh on December 19, 2023, 11:07:17 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 19, 2023, 11:07:41 PM
I hope you're proud of yourself Mr Heck. You've RUINED Christmas for millions of young Villa fans around the world.
Well you know, you do the same at most matches but we have your back.
:D
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 19, 2023, 11:08:00 PM
In fairness to Heck, he's paid to make big decisions and this is another big one.
Big salaries also means you have to be accountable for your decisions, explain them, and bring people on the journey; he’s not done any of that so far.
Post by: VillaTim on December 19, 2023, 11:08:12 PM
Isn't that what Ellis did down the Witton RoadWould they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
Please no! Kick people out of their homes? This is supposed to be a football club rooted in its community not one rooting out its community
Post by: Smoke on December 19, 2023, 11:08:31 PM
Very valid point someone made a few posts ago the increased seats in the now shelved plan were majority in the hospitality high pricing bracket. This could very well be what he means by too many seats too soon not the "lack of faith / balls/ ambition/ etc" as has been chucked around.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 11:08:34 PM
The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
Explained really badly with a scarcely believable story about it being an experiment, it being some shit about a 1982 commemoration on, err, the 41st anniversary.
We now have a situation where we have two totally different badges used by media outlets and are about to get a third.
Post by: itbrvilla on December 19, 2023, 11:08:44 PM
So far Heck is like Ellis and Tom Fox rolled into one insufferable bullshitterI can tolerate hearing the rough decisions, but just want people to be honest with me. Americans full of shit as usual and treat us like we're stupid.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 11:10:19 PM
So far Heck is like Ellis and Tom Fox rolled into one insufferable bullshitterI can tolerate hearing the rough decisions, but just want people to be honest with me. Americans full of shit as usual and treat us like we're stupid.
I don't think it is fair to label it as American, but they definitely do think we're stupid. That's at least the impression I get from their comms.
Also, spot on about the honesty. The thing about the badge fiasco isn't that they decided to change their minds, it's that they wrapped it up in so much utter bullshit.
Just come out and say "we realise we may have got it wrong, so are reconsidering it", don't give us that transparent baloney about 'judging market reaction to the new badge' etc etc etc.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 19, 2023, 11:11:23 PM
I hope you're proud of yourself Mr Heck. You've RUINED Christmas for millions of young Villa fans around the world.Well you know, you do the same at most matches but 'mostbofnidb
We can all edit.
Post by: andyh on December 19, 2023, 11:12:47 PM
No, that’s not it all.The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
Explained really badly with a scarcely believable story about it being an experiment, it being some shit about a 1982 commemoration on, err, the 41st anniversary.
We now have a situation where we have two totally different badges used by media outlets and are about to get a third.
It was explained in a claret a blue podcast, in depth, how the selection process was worded and constructed in way that Purslows pre defined deisign was always going to be ‘the winner’.
It was never about giving the fans a say, it was about appearing to give the fans a say.
Another Purslow vanity project
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 19, 2023, 11:15:40 PM
No, that’s not it all.The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
Explained really badly with a scarcely believable story about it being an experiment, it being some shit about a 1982 commemoration on, err, the 41st anniversary.
We now have a situation where we have two totally different badges used by media outlets and are about to get a third.
It was explained in a claret a blue podcast, in depth, how the selection process was worded and constructed in way that Purslow pre defined deisign was always going to be ‘the winner’.
It was never about giving the fans a say, it was about appearing to give the fans a say.
And how does that reflect in any way well on Heck? Come out and tell us that's the reasoning if that is the case.
And I don't really understand how something on the claret and blue podcast explains anything from the club's viewpoint on the badge.
They should have just said, we got it wrong and come clean on it.
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
Post by: andyh on December 19, 2023, 11:24:21 PM
I have responded to a new badge questionnaire. I think lots on here have done.No, that’s not it all.The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
Explained really badly with a scarcely believable story about it being an experiment, it being some shit about a 1982 commemoration on, err, the 41st anniversary.
We now have a situation where we have two totally different badges used by media outlets and are about to get a third.
It was explained in a claret a blue podcast, in depth, how the selection process was worded and constructed in way that Purslow pre defined deisign was always going to be ‘the winner’.
It was never about giving the fans a say, it was about appearing to give the fans a say.
And how does that reflect in any way well on Heck? Come out and tell us that's the reasoning if that is the case.
And I don't really understand how something on the claret and blue podcast explains anything from the club's viewpoint on the badge.
They should have just said, we got it wrong and come clean on it.
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
I think the point I am making about the current badge is that it was sold as a modern, fit for purpose upgrade on the Lerner rubbish, whereas Heck realised it was a Purslow vanity project and so pulled the plug and is now doing what Purslow was supposed to be doing but wasn’t, consulting the fans for a true, fans led, replacement.
I guess we will find out in a few weeks how dangerous it is to let people vote for something.
Post by: TonyD on December 19, 2023, 11:24:45 PM
Or we could just poison their water supply.Would they consider a compulsory PO of the land and properties around Villa Park?
I hope not. We're not Liverpool.
Isn't the issue with Liverpool that they bought the houses piecemeal then let the street go to the dogs to try to force the last few people out. At least with a compulsory purchase order, everybody knows where they stand.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 11:25:13 PM
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
There was the same lot of questions to answer that we had last time. As you say, all he needed to say was "we don't think this refelcts how we want to move our brand further, and it's no use for online marketing so we're going to do it better" There would have been a few grumbles but I don't think many people liked the lion facing the wrong way anyway.
In the hospitality areas they've been handing out freebies (wash bag, travel mug, water bottle etc) in the last few weeks at most games, and it's all had this branding on it:
(https://i.ibb.co/6skZRqW/IMG-1149.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6skZRqW)
I reckon it's almost certain that what they're planning is this, or the the same with the lion facing the other way.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 19, 2023, 11:29:54 PM
I have responded to a new badge questionnaire. I think lots on here have done.
I think the point I am making about the current badge is that it was sold as a modern, fit for purpose upgrade on the Lerner rubbish, whereas Heck realised it was a Purslow vanity project and so pulled the plug and is now doing what Purslow was supposed to be doing but wasn’t, consulting the fans for a true, fans led, replacement.
I guess we will find out in a few weeks how dangerous it is to let people vote for something.
When Heck unveils his new design we could always have a vote off between it and the new round badge. If they don't, we'll assume they're not really interested in the fans' opinions and the revised design is nothing more than a 'Heck vanity project'.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 19, 2023, 11:34:26 PM
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 11:41:24 PM
Interviewer: "Can you talk a bit about the Villa Park assessment, and the plans regarding the North Stand, I think the fans are excited about that."
Heck: "[paraphrasing] Yes. We're not doing it."
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 11:42:21 PM
No, that’s not it all.The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
Explained really badly with a scarcely believable story about it being an experiment, it being some shit about a 1982 commemoration on, err, the 41st anniversary.
We now have a situation where we have two totally different badges used by media outlets and are about to get a third.
It was explained in a claret a blue podcast, in depth, how the selection process was worded and constructed in way that Purslows pre defined deisign was always going to be ‘the winner’.
It was never about giving the fans a say, it was about appearing to give the fans a say.
Another Purslow vanity project
It was explained by people who didn't want the circular badge in the first place on a podcast what they thought about the selection process & how they thought it was worded in a particular way to influence the vote. It was their opinion & they had no official word or evidence that it was a Perslow vanity project anymore than anybody in here does who hold the same opinion. I have noticed that it is a few louder voices in the Villa community who have made opposition known that particular crest & how the process was run.
Now, it may have been the case that these people are correct about the Perslow crest, but if those loud influential voices were pissed off about perceiving the circular one as being a Perslow vanity project, then they should be pissed off that the new one appears to be a Heck vanity project, because he appears to have done the very same thing that they accuse Perslow of. No matter what it looks like.
Only Heck has done it with less flowery words, blatant lies & manipulation of data to explain the change, & then basically gave three options to choose from within from the "consultation".
The whole debacle was a clusterfuck, no matter how its drilled down...
Post by: Billy Walker on December 19, 2023, 11:44:40 PM
In fairness to Heck, he's paid to make big decisions and this is another big one.
Big salaries also means you have to be accountable for your decisions, explain them, and bring people on the journey; he’s not done any of that so far.
I agree, some crystal clear communication and outlining of the Club's new plans are now required. As well as what's going on with Villa Park, I'd like to know what the new plans for Bodymoor are.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 19, 2023, 11:44:46 PM
The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
What, apart from the obvious bullshit they put out? I must have missed it if there was something vaguely believable.
Post by: Ads on December 19, 2023, 11:47:11 PM
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 19, 2023, 11:47:26 PM
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
There was the same lot of questions to answer that we had last time. As you say, all he needed to say was "we don't think this refelcts how we want to move our brand further, and it's no use for online marketing so we're going to do it better" There would have been a few grumbles but I don't think many people liked the lion facing the wrong way anyway.
In the hospitality areas they've been handing out freebies (wash bag, travel mug, water bottle etc) in the last few weeks at most games, and it's all had this branding on it:
(https://i.ibb.co/6skZRqW/IMG-1149.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6skZRqW)
I reckon it's almost certain that what they're planning is this, or the the same with the lion facing the other way.
I wouldn't cry if it was that...
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 19, 2023, 11:52:36 PM
Post by: Drummond on December 19, 2023, 11:52:40 PM
It seems like a radical change without a further plan at this point. I very much doubt that's the case, but perhaps they just aren't at a point to share what the new plan is?
If it's a move, that's fucking huge.
If it's rail seating, it's radical.
Maybe ticket sales are about right, there's demand enough to sell out but not enough to sell an additional 10k.
Maybe they'll fill in the corners.
Perhaps it's brinkmanship to get Witton Station done.
Perhaps they realise that better facilities in what we've got will be more of a revenue generator.
Do the outside first, get revenue per head up before developing.
Of course the ground would look super shit to everyone else if we get Champions League and then have to play in reduced capacity and who knows the effect it could have.
We're 150 next year, and if we do that well it will improve our standing. I suspect there are good plans for it.
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 11:55:34 PM
I guess we can all read into the confusion one way or the other. I definitely take his read of thoughtful plans to suggest that being down to 3 sides is unacceptable for 2 years, because it absolutely is.
We need extra capacity in the ground, both to accommodate fans who want to watch us but can't, and also to try to keep pace with our competitors and to ease FFP concerns. The North Stand is the stand that needs upgrading the most. It's old, small, is an eyesore and has crap facilities. Of course there's going to be short term pain, as there's never an ideal time to knock a stand down, but once it's built, it's built and then you start to see the benefits immediately and forever after.
Post by: eamonn on December 19, 2023, 11:56:03 PM
I guess we can all read into the confusion one way or the other. I definitely take his read of thoughtful plans to suggest that being down to 3 sides is unacceptable for 2 years, because it absolutely is.
When will it ever be acceptable? Hope that we get relegated again just so we can use it as a "quiet time" to increase the stadium by which time the "fickle sugarbag" contingent of our support will have fallen-off anyway...
Post by: Risso on December 19, 2023, 11:56:33 PM
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Go on, have a wild stab in the dark.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 20, 2023, 12:02:22 AM
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 20, 2023, 12:04:27 AM
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 12:04:34 AM
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Go on, have a wild stab in the dark.
What I mean is that there is no single reason.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 20, 2023, 12:05:53 AM
I’ve only sat in the North a couple of times and I’m convinced it was built at a time people were all 5ft 2. Because no way would you build it that cramped in 2023.
It's because it's terrace steps. Although saying that the odd time I was Upper North it wasn't a fat lot better leg room wise.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 12:09:26 AM
I’ve only sat in the North a couple of times and I’m convinced it was built at a time people were all 5ft 2. Because no way would you build it that cramped in 2023.
I haven't been in the Witton since a couple of years after it was built, and I couldn't get my legs in there at all. I'm 6'1", so above average height but not exactly Peter Crouch, and it was a horrendous experience.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 20, 2023, 12:09:55 AM
I’ve only sat in the North a couple of times and I’m convinced it was built at a time people were all 5ft 2. Because no way would you build it that cramped in 2023.
It's because it's terrace steps. Although saying that the odd time I was Upper North it wasn't a fat lot better leg room wise.
I’ve never sat in the lower section. Only upper. The view is ace. Your legs are paralyzed at FT.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 20, 2023, 12:11:53 AM
I’ve never sat in the lower section. Only upper. The view is ace. Your legs are paralyzed at FT.
The view is worse and there's less leg room, which should tell you everything you need to know.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 12:20:19 AM
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 12:24:33 AM
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Go on, have a wild stab in the dark.
Peer clubs have been upping to 50k plus, we had plans for that to happen and we have scrapped them even though we pretty much sell out every week and have done for 4 years.
It's a real throwback to when the club was run like a corner shop and never reached its potential. It is a real blow for a lot of us
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 12:49:40 AM
If a ground move is off the table, then something else is afoot. It wouldn't surprise me if CPOs and a total revamp of the area wasn't in the new vision.
Post by: Rory on December 20, 2023, 02:17:32 AM
I’ve only sat in the North a couple of times and I’m convinced it was built at a time people were all 5ft 2. Because no way would you build it that cramped in 2023.
I'm 6'1"
You don't look it 😉
But I've always felt this way about everything from train and bus seats to VP. I'm about 5'10 barefoot and almost every bus, train, aeroplane and stadium seat digs into my knees.
I don't know how actually tall people cope.
Sat in the Lower North once and it was just about acceptable, but in the Upper I had to spread my legs so much I looked like Andrew Tate. I could've teabagged the bloke in front while still seated.
Post by: Bad English on December 20, 2023, 06:05:35 AM
Excellent point. Well-made.I hope you're proud of yourself Mr Heck. You've RUINED Christmas for millions of young Villa fans around the world.Well you know, you do the same at most matches but 'mostbofnidb
We can all edit.
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on December 20, 2023, 06:20:51 AM
And I'm 5'10".
Post by: sid1964 on December 20, 2023, 06:42:46 AM
The decision to not knock down and rebuild the north stand would not have just been made by Heck, this decision would have been agreed upon with the owners etc...
Hopefully we don't lose on Friday because judging by the comments, this site will go into full melt down.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 20, 2023, 06:45:00 AM
Reading this thread has shown me people on here are really missing being able to have a good old moan.Why should we even be guessing what he means?
Very valid point someone made a few posts ago the increased seats in the now shelved plan were majority in the hospitality high pricing bracket. This could very well be what he means by too many seats too soon not the "lack of faith / balls/ ambition/ etc" as has been chucked around.
His job is to make decisions and communicate effectively, neither of which he seems capable of.
Post by: itbrvilla on December 20, 2023, 06:47:06 AM
It will always be unacceptable. If the Scousers can find architects to build behind, then so can we.Surely that depends on what the existing stand infrastructure and services are like and if adequate.
If a ground move is off the table, then something else is afoot. It wouldn't surprise me if CPOs and a total revamp of the area wasn't in the new vision.
Post by: Kimaster1976 on December 20, 2023, 07:00:05 AM
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
Post by: frank black on December 20, 2023, 07:02:28 AM
There’s something in the pipeline . Let’s hope it’s not like a cunning plan from Baldrick
Post by: nick harper on December 20, 2023, 07:13:04 AM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
It’s not a good look though. All our competitors, including those we are currently punching above our weight against, have expanded, are expanding, or planning further development to meet demand, including Chelsea. We meanwhile, are not sure about demand, and have shelved pretty modest plans. It feels small time, and for those of us who have been around a long time, the kind of mentality we have seen at the club for a very long time.
Post by: luke95 on December 20, 2023, 07:37:11 AM
Post by: johnc on December 20, 2023, 08:07:25 AM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.I think I would take the Lower Grounds cash before aping Chelsea's money raising antics
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 08:12:37 AM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
Chelsea charge many times what we do, and have had two owners willing to pump in billions of pounds, so it's not a good comparison.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 08:12:38 AM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
Chelsea with their stadium in literally one of the richest areas of Europe, and 20 years of Russian money funding them, and who are still desperate for a bigger ground.
Hardly comparable.
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 08:27:40 AM
The only logic I can see is that he's a politician and he likes to be seen doing things differently to his predecessor. He has probably spent 6 months trying to convince the owners to scrap this and he broke them down. Villa Park was always among the elite grounds because the founders of the club had vision and ambition. It has now fallen behind these nine clubs
Man U
Man City
Tottenham
Liverpool
Arsenal
Everton
Newcastle
West Ham
Sunderland
Post by: tomd2103 on December 20, 2023, 08:35:34 AM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
It’s not a good look though. All our competitors, including those we are currently punching above our weight against, have expanded, are expanding, or planning further development to meet demand, including Chelsea. We meanwhile, are not sure about demand, and have shelved pretty modest plans. It feels small time, and for those of us who have been around a long time, the kind of mentality we have seen at the club for a very long time.
To play devil's advocate slightly, maybe it is just for now while all options are considered and it's not to say it won't happen in the near future. Maybe the various authorities aren't playing ball with the upgrade of the train station and maybe concerns have been raised at certain levels about the impact of having an extra 10,000 people in the area without sufficient transport upgrades. Maybe they have thought it's better to just put a pause on it for now, while all options are assessed.
I do think he worded it poorly in that interview though. "Too many seats, too soon" makes us look a bit small-time and it could have been worded way differently. Like with the badge, all he really needed to say was that he was still new in the position and wanted to look at all options before making such a big decision.
Post by: itbrvilla on December 20, 2023, 08:36:18 AM
I am struggling to see the logic in what Heck clumsily announced. It makes absolutely no sense and is going to hold us back.I bet there are plenty 9f other clubs with better facilities than we have.
The only logic I can see is that he's a politician and he likes to be seen doing things differently to his predecessor. He has probably spent 6 months trying to convince the owners to scrap this and he broke them down. Villa Park was always among the elite grounds because the founders of the club had vision and ambition. It has now fallen behind these nine clubs
Man U
Man City
Tottenham
Liverpool
Arsenal
Everton
Newcastle
West Ham
Sunderland
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 08:46:10 AM
Chucking £100m+ now on one stand, knowing you will still be behind and still be limited in what you can do with the other three, isn't a no-brainer decision. The absolute best option as far as being competitive and growing the club, is a whole new stadium that is designed to generate the kind of revenue we need from the off.
Everything these owners have been doing has been about getting us up to an elite level. Why do we all worry they're now giving up on having an elite stadium?
I'd love a complete rebuild in our current site. We have plenty of land there, it's just annoyingly shaped. If something can be done about that, the prospect of a new top-of-the-range stadium with first class facilities funding a top four team has me drooling.
Post by: simboy on December 20, 2023, 08:48:03 AM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
The one good thing Ken Bates did at Chelsea was sell off the ground in metre square portions, no one can own more than 10 portions. The club has a member of the ground owners on an advisory board I think. It’s stopped the ground being sold for redevelopment. All registered at the land registry apparently.
I suspect that’s the real reason the ground has not been sold for redevelopment and the club moved to some wasteland, probably much to the annoyance of their rich owners.
Post by: PaulTheVillan on December 20, 2023, 09:03:00 AM
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 09:14:19 AM
We have acres of space behind both goals - this is why we have always, historically, had massive end terraces/stands. There is no excuse for moving. There are two railway stations and a motorway and you are not a million miles from the city centre.
Some might think a move solves some of our issues but is it worth trading what we have at Villa Park for a greenfield site in the middle of nowhere that needs a car to get to or another city location far from our roots and with its own problems.
I challenge anybody to watch this video and still argue we can't get to the next level at our existing location:
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 09:16:02 AM
A strange statement about too much too soon, that doesn't really ring true. Not said with any conviction either.His ambiguous statement that an extra 10k seats is too much to soon can not mean that we won't fill them. We obviously will if we keep competing at the highest level. I've read that we have between 30 and 37k on the waiting list which does seem a bit fanciful but 10k doesn't. That feels a perfectly reasonable target. I think he may be referring to the difficulties an extra 10 thousand fans will mean for the local infrastructure which can't cope now at 42k. So he might have a bigger agenda at play although it's difficult to tell as we are having to second guess this guy. We need and deserve better communication and more information about their intentions for our football club. Yes OUR football club.
£10,000 is the cost per additional seat now, up from £4,000 pre-pandemic. Its not going to get any cheaper.
We have significantly wealthy owners and now we're in bed with significantly wealthy (infrastructure providers) funders.
Commercial revenue has grown, with more and more corporate being crammed in every possible space, but we've reached capacity and we are instead looking at adding the warehouse, rather than new areas. Largely because there's nowhere to add new offerings too. Which contradicts the aim to grow, making the first paragraph all the more puzzling.
We have transport issues, but they're not contingent on planning and frankly, if it's built, people will come and go, just more slowly than they'd like.
He describes plans as being thoughtful. What a strangely deliberate phrase.
It's all very confusing and doesn't ring true. We haven't had the whole truth or anything close to it.
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 09:31:12 AM
I duno about that. It's how we ended up with the glorious name Boaty McBoatface.I have responded to a new badge questionnaire. I think lots on here have done.No, that’s not it all.The badge ‘fiasco’ has been explained, time and time again.
Explained really badly with a scarcely believable story about it being an experiment, it being some shit about a 1982 commemoration on, err, the 41st anniversary.
We now have a situation where we have two totally different badges used by media outlets and are about to get a third.
It was explained in a claret a blue podcast, in depth, how the selection process was worded and constructed in way that Purslow pre defined deisign was always going to be ‘the winner’.
It was never about giving the fans a say, it was about appearing to give the fans a say.
And how does that reflect in any way well on Heck? Come out and tell us that's the reasoning if that is the case.
And I don't really understand how something on the claret and blue podcast explains anything from the club's viewpoint on the badge.
They should have just said, we got it wrong and come clean on it.
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
I think the point I am making about the current badge is that it was sold as a modern, fit for purpose upgrade on the Lerner rubbish, whereas Heck realised it was a Purslow vanity project and so pulled the plug and is now doing what Purslow was supposed to be doing but wasn’t, consulting the fans for a true, fans led, replacement.
I guess we will find out in a few weeks how dangerous it is to let people vote for something.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 20, 2023, 09:40:35 AM
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 09:41:57 AM
My guess is that releasing the news now is so that most people forget about it over Christmas.I'm guessing you're not one of those on the waiting list. I've waited for years for me and my two sons to be able to get season tickets together. My youngest enlisted us and we're about 9000th on the list.This has come as a kick in the teeth for us and the worst part is the cold way it was announced just "it's not happening" without any suggestion of what actually WILL be happening. So yes I'm pissed off about it and I believe I have every right to be alongside the thousands of other genuine hopefuls who joined the waiting list.
It seems like a radical change without a further plan at this point. I very much doubt that's the case, but perhaps they just aren't at a point to share what the new plan is?
If it's a move, that's fucking huge.
If it's rail seating, it's radical.
Maybe ticket sales are about right, there's demand enough to sell out but not enough to sell an additional 10k.
Maybe they'll fill in the corners.
Perhaps it's brinkmanship to get Witton Station done.
Perhaps they realise that better facilities in what we've got will be more of a revenue generator.
Do the outside first, get revenue per head up before developing.
Of course the ground would look super shit to everyone else if we get Champions League and then have to play in reduced capacity and who knows the effect it could have.
We're 150 next year, and if we do that well it will improve our standing. I suspect there are good plans for it.
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Post by: Nii Lamptey on December 20, 2023, 09:45:02 AM
Villa Park has soul, history and is a huge part of our identity. As a kid I'm not sure if it was Aston Villa or Villa Park that I fell in love with. Villa Park, probably more than is the case for any other club, is hugely wrapped up in our very identity.
We have acres of space behind both goals - this is why we have always, historically, had massive end terraces/stands. There is no excuse for moving. There are two railway stations and a motorway and you are not a million miles from the city centre.
Some might think a move solves some of our issues but is it worth trading what we have at Villa Park for a greenfield site in the middle of nowhere that needs a car to get to or another city location far from our roots and with its own problems.
I challenge anybody to watch this video and still argue we can't get to the next level at our existing location:
Seeing that video, and the fade to the original Villa Park is 100% the reason we should NEVER even entertain the idea of moving from these hallowed grounds. Thanks Villan82... even more gutted it's not going ahead now. Looks beautiful! 😭
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 09:50:29 AM
Post by: DB on December 20, 2023, 09:51:47 AM
My guess is that releasing the news now is so that most people forget about it over Christmas.I'm guessing you're not one of those on the waiting list. I've waited for years for me and my two sons to be able to get season tickets together. My youngest enlisted us and we're about 9000th on the list.This has come as a kick in the teeth for us and the worst part is the cold way it was announced just "it's not happening" without any suggestion of what actually WILL be happening.
It seems like a radical change without a further plan at this point. I very much doubt that's the case, but perhaps they just aren't at a point to share what the new plan is?
If it's a move, that's fucking huge.
If it's rail seating, it's radical.
Maybe ticket sales are about right, there's demand enough to sell out but not enough to sell an additional 10k.
Maybe they'll fill in the corners.
Perhaps it's brinkmanship to get Witton Station done.
Perhaps they realise that better facilities in what we've got will be more of a revenue generator.
Do the outside first, get revenue per head up before developing.
Of course the ground would look super shit to everyone else if we get Champions League and then have to play in reduced capacity and who knows the effect it could have.
We're 150 next year, and if we do that well it will improve our standing. I suspect there are good plans for it.
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Same here, as a member, I could have taken reduced chances of getting a ticket for me and my lad for 2 years if there was a bigger chance after that of getting a ST.
I just hope Heck sorts his comms out and tells up what the plan for the ground is sooner rather than later.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 09:53:42 AM
My guess is that releasing the news now is so that most people forget about it over Christmas.I'm guessing you're not one of those on the waiting list. I've waited for years for me and my two sons to be able to get season tickets together. My youngest enlisted us and we're about 9000th on the list.This has come as a kick in the teeth for us and the worst part is the cold way it was announced just "it's not happening" without any suggestion of what actually WILL be happening.
It seems like a radical change without a further plan at this point. I very much doubt that's the case, but perhaps they just aren't at a point to share what the new plan is?
If it's a move, that's fucking huge.
If it's rail seating, it's radical.
Maybe ticket sales are about right, there's demand enough to sell out but not enough to sell an additional 10k.
Maybe they'll fill in the corners.
Perhaps it's brinkmanship to get Witton Station done.
Perhaps they realise that better facilities in what we've got will be more of a revenue generator.
Do the outside first, get revenue per head up before developing.
Of course the ground would look super shit to everyone else if we get Champions League and then have to play in reduced capacity and who knows the effect it could have.
We're 150 next year, and if we do that well it will improve our standing. I suspect there are good plans for it.
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
My son and I were at 12500 ish last year when they emailed me. I'm guessing we haven't moved far. So yes, it's disappointing from that perspective.
I know it's cold, but I'm guessing at most of the fan events the majority of comments are about shit service and facilities rather than season ticket waiting lists.
Post by: SamTheMouse on December 20, 2023, 09:55:14 AM
Villa Park has soul, history and is a huge part of our identity. As a kid I'm not sure if it was Aston Villa or Villa Park that I fell in love with. Villa Park, probably more than is the case for any other club, is hugely wrapped up in our very identity.
I'm only a plastic fan really as I live a thousand kilometres away and hardly ever go to games these days - the last one I got to was Burnley under Gerrard. And even when I was a kid and lived up the road, I only went rarely, mainly 'cos we had no money and not a single one of my friends or family liked Villa.
But Villa Park was always that intriguing, wondrous, alluring place I used to stare at out the car window when we drove up to see the "fam" from down south. It was my El Dorado. Still is. The last time I walked up the road from the station and the North Stand hoved into view, I welled up.
So even for me, it's important. I can't imagine what a wrench leaving it would be for people who have been going every other week for decades.
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 10:01:52 AM
My guess is that releasing the news now is so that most people forget about it over Christmas.I'm guessing you're not one of those on the waiting list. I've waited for years for me and my two sons to be able to get season tickets together. My youngest enlisted us and we're about 9000th on the list.This has come as a kick in the teeth for us and the worst part is the cold way it was announced just "it's not happening" without any suggestion of what actually WILL be happening. So yes I'm pissed off about it and I believe I have every right to be alongside the thousands of other genuine hopefuls who joined the waiting list.
It seems like a radical change without a further plan at this point. I very much doubt that's the case, but perhaps they just aren't at a point to share what the new plan is?
If it's a move, that's fucking huge.
If it's rail seating, it's radical.
Maybe ticket sales are about right, there's demand enough to sell out but not enough to sell an additional 10k.
Maybe they'll fill in the corners.
Perhaps it's brinkmanship to get Witton Station done.
Perhaps they realise that better facilities in what we've got will be more of a revenue generator.
Do the outside first, get revenue per head up before developing.
Of course the ground would look super shit to everyone else if we get Champions League and then have to play in reduced capacity and who knows the effect it could have.
We're 150 next year, and if we do that well it will improve our standing. I suspect there are good plans for it.
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Same here, as a member, I could have taken reduced chances of getting a ticket for me and my lad for 2 years if there was a bigger chance after that of getting a ST.
I just hope Heck sorts his comms out and tells up what the plan for the ground is sooner rather than later.
Post by: curiousorange on December 20, 2023, 10:02:08 AM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 10:04:29 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 20, 2023, 10:07:07 AM
Villa Park has soul, history and is a huge part of our identity. As a kid I'm not sure if it was Aston Villa or Villa Park that I fell in love with. Villa Park, probably more than is the case for any other club, is hugely wrapped up in our very identity.
We have acres of space behind both goals - this is why we have always, historically, had massive end terraces/stands. There is no excuse for moving. There are two railway stations and a motorway and you are not a million miles from the city centre.
Some might think a move solves some of our issues but is it worth trading what we have at Villa Park for a greenfield site in the middle of nowhere that needs a car to get to or another city location far from our roots and with its own problems.
I challenge anybody to watch this video and still argue we can't get to the next level at our existing location:
Completely agree. There isn't anywhere better to have our Ground.
Post by: Simon Page on December 20, 2023, 10:11:03 AM
I could've teabagged the bloke in front while still seated.
All you can stomach teabagging from an average height is surely the offering that will make the Lower Grounds a goer.
If not, at least buy him a balti pie first, you romantic devil.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 10:30:18 AM
I think he’s convinced the owners that spending big on one stand makes little sense. I think we are looking at either moving (most likely) or knocking three stands down.
He's been such a bad influence since the day he walked in. I am convinced he won't be here long but he will have held us back significantly and possibly cost Birmingham the Euros .
I think he was lumbered by a shit badge, the Terrace View, the Lower Grounds and the new stand and is steadily unpicking it all. I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but his work in the USA shows he has the experience.
As for costing Birmingham the Euros, well that takes second place to the Villa's needs I'm afraid.
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 10:32:48 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 10:35:40 AM
The council are strapped for cash. How about we purchase a chunk of Asto Park off them on the Trinity Rd side. It's fairly flat and can be excavated if needs be. Build a spanking new stadium which would have to be completely re-aligned and do it in stages like Spurs did? Possibly a tunnel for the Trinity Rd itself. Again referring to Spurs they tunnelled under the ground for the pitch didn't they? If Daniel Levy can get all that done I'm sure our owners can. I know they had Wembley for a season so that's quite an obstacle. I'm just brainstorming because we can not leave our spiritual home. No way.
I do think something like this would be fantastic. And a lovely day out for people, Aston Hall and Villa Park. Lovely.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 10:38:52 AM
The council are strapped for cash. How about we purchase a chunk of Asto Park off them on the Trinity Rd side. It's fairly flat and can be excavated if needs be. Build a spanking new stadium which would have to be completely re-aligned and do it in stages like Spurs did? Possibly a tunnel for the Trinity Rd itself. Again referring to Spurs they tunnelled under the ground for the pitch didn't they? If Daniel Levy can get all that done I'm sure our owners can. I know they had Wembley for a season so that's quite an obstacle. I'm just brainstorming because we can not leave our spiritual home. No way.
I'm not sure there is the space on the park site given AH sits slap bang in the middle.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 10:39:54 AM
I'm actually quite happy with the news. Disappointed we won't be 50k+ in the next couple of years, but overall I think we will get something better.
Chucking £100m+ now on one stand, knowing you will still be behind and still be limited in what you can do with the other three, isn't a no-brainer decision. The absolute best option as far as being competitive and growing the club, is a whole new stadium that is designed to generate the kind of revenue we need from the off.
Everything these owners have been doing has been about getting us up to an elite level. Why do we all worry they're now giving up on having an elite stadium?
I'd love a complete rebuild in our current site. We have plenty of land there, it's just annoyingly shaped. If something can be done about that, the prospect of a new top-of-the-range stadium with first class facilities funding a top four team has me drooling.
To be fair that's like me drooling over the idea of a night with Dua Lipa. It's a nice idea but the chances of it happening are less than zero. How on earth would we get a whole new stadium on the current site? Where would we play in the years it would take to demolish and rebuild? If they're pulling a face at one new stand, how is that you think they're going to demolish all four, especially when two of the stands are half decent and don't need improving yet. If they were going to do that it would make far more sense to just move and build somewhere else.
Post by: Des Little on December 20, 2023, 10:40:46 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 10:40:49 AM
The council are strapped for cash. How about we purchase a chunk of Asto Park off them on the Trinity Rd side. It's fairly flat and can be excavated if needs be. Build a spanking new stadium which would have to be completely re-aligned and do it in stages like Spurs did? Possibly a tunnel for the Trinity Rd itself. Again referring to Spurs they tunnelled under the ground for the pitch didn't they? If Daniel Levy can get all that done I'm sure our owners can. I know they had Wembley for a season so that's quite an obstacle. I'm just brainstorming because we can not leave our spiritual home. No way.
I'm not sure there is the space on the park site given AH sits slap bang in the middle.
I think you can, looking at the footprint of the Spurs and Arsenal stadiums. And it's the only option that doesn't involve people's houses.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 10:41:53 AM
I may have missed it, so apologies but did Heck mention anything about the farmers market they showed happening behind the new stand? I hope this decision won’t affect that taking place, I was really looking forward to it.
The ability to purchase artisan cheeses and home made chutney appears to have slipped his mind momentarily.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 10:42:52 AM
Though where the hell we'd play in the meantime is anybody's guess. Maybe we'd offer to develop another stadium in the city to make it near big enough for our temporary use.
Current capacities of local stadia.
Alexandra 18k
Bescot 11k
Hawthorns 26k
Sty 29k
Coventry Arena 40k
So, let's say we went for a total rebuild on site, with improved transport links (notice he referenced them in his video?) and moved to Coventry for a bit, we'd lose a couple of thousand tickets, of which a portion would be away fans.... It's far from ideal, but might be the answer.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 10:45:16 AM
Maybe there's a plan to knock Villa Park down and build new on the site, by moving everything 50-100m into the North Stand car park.
Though where the hell we'd play in the meantime is anybody's guess. Maybe we'd offer to develop another stadium in the city to make it near big enough for our temporary use.
Current capacities of local stadia.
Alexandra 18k
Bescot 11k
Hawthorns 26k
Sty 29k
Coventry Arena 40k
So, let's say we went for a total rebuild on site, with improved transport links (notice he referenced them in his video?) and moved to Coventry for a bit, we'd lose a couple of thousand tickets, of which a portion would be away fans.... It's far from ideal, but might be the answer.
Coventry Arena is 32k, not 40. 40 is the figure for gigs, not football matches.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 10:45:44 AM
The council are strapped for cash. How about we purchase a chunk of Asto Park off them on the Trinity Rd side. It's fairly flat and can be excavated if needs be. Build a spanking new stadium which would have to be completely re-aligned and do it in stages like Spurs did? Possibly a tunnel for the Trinity Rd itself. Again referring to Spurs they tunnelled under the ground for the pitch didn't they? If Daniel Levy can get all that done I'm sure our owners can. I know they had Wembley for a season so that's quite an obstacle. I'm just brainstorming because we can not leave our spiritual home. No way.
I'm not sure there is the space on the park site given AH sits slap bang in the middle.
I think you can, looking at the footprint of the Spurs and Arsenal stadiums. And it's the only option that doesn't involve people's houses.
Happy to bow to those with experience and greater knowledge, which wouldn't be hard, but I cant see it without a partial demolition of VP to utilise some of the land in the current footprint which is what we are shying away from now it seems.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 10:46:04 AM
I'm actually quite happy with the news. Disappointed we won't be 50k+ in the next couple of years, but overall I think we will get something better.
Chucking £100m+ now on one stand, knowing you will still be behind and still be limited in what you can do with the other three, isn't a no-brainer decision. The absolute best option as far as being competitive and growing the club, is a whole new stadium that is designed to generate the kind of revenue we need from the off.
Everything these owners have been doing has been about getting us up to an elite level. Why do we all worry they're now giving up on having an elite stadium?
I'd love a complete rebuild in our current site. We have plenty of land there, it's just annoyingly shaped. If something can be done about that, the prospect of a new top-of-the-range stadium with first class facilities funding a top four team has me drooling.
To be fair that's like me drooling over the idea of a night with Dua Lipa. It's a nice idea but the chances of it happening are less than zero. How on earth would we get a whole new stadium on the current site? Where would we play in the years it would take to demolish and rebuild? If they're pulling a face at one new stand, how is that you think they're going to demolish all four, especially when two of the stands are half decent and don't need improving yet. If they were going to do that it would make far more sense to just move and build somewhere else.
Our location should be good. And I think it generally would be if the transport stuff was sorted. There are stations and motorways close by; improve the stations and increase capacity, sort out a one-way system for cars, sorted.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 10:46:11 AM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 10:46:45 AM
The council are strapped for cash.they are bankrupt
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 10:46:52 AM
Maybe there's a plan to knock Villa Park down and build new on the site, by moving everything 50-100m into the North Stand car park.
Though where the hell we'd play in the meantime is anybody's guess. Maybe we'd offer to develop another stadium in the city to make it near big enough for our temporary use.
Current capacities of local stadia.
Alexandra 18k
Bescot 11k
Hawthorns 26k
Sty 29k
Coventry Arena 40k
So, let's say we went for a total rebuild on site, with improved transport links (notice he referenced them in his video?) and moved to Coventry for a bit, we'd lose a couple of thousand tickets, of which a portion would be away fans.... It's far from ideal, but might be the answer.
Hopefully. The least disruption revenue wise is a new site, but we already have a great site and it would be worth a switch to the Ricoh for a couple of seasons to stay.
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 10:47:26 AM
Maybe there's a plan to knock Villa Park down and build new on the site, by moving everything 50-100m into the North Stand car park.
Though where the hell we'd play in the meantime is anybody's guess. Maybe we'd offer to develop another stadium in the city to make it near big enough for our temporary use.
Current capacities of local stadia.
Alexandra 18k
Bescot 11k
Hawthorns 26k
Sty 29k
Coventry Arena 40k
So, let's say we went for a total rebuild on site, with improved transport links (notice he referenced them in his video?) and moved to Coventry for a bit, we'd lose a couple of thousand tickets, of which a portion would be away fans.... It's far from ideal, but might be the answer.
Coventry is nowhere near that big, it's 40k for concerts where they convery most of the pitch. For sport it's a little under 33k.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 10:48:15 AM
Maybe there's a plan to knock Villa Park down and build new on the site, by moving everything 50-100m into the North Stand car park.
Though where the hell we'd play in the meantime is anybody's guess. Maybe we'd offer to develop another stadium in the city to make it near big enough for our temporary use.
Current capacities of local stadia.
Alexandra 18k
Bescot 11k
Hawthorns 26k
Sty 29k
Coventry Arena 40k
So, let's say we went for a total rebuild on site, with improved transport links (notice he referenced them in his video?) and moved to Coventry for a bit, we'd lose a couple of thousand tickets, of which a portion would be away fans.... It's far from ideal, but might be the answer.
Coventry Arena is 32k, not 40. 40 is the figure for gigs, not football matches.
Ah, a flaw in the plan then! Commentary on our games would be good though, "the fans are on the pitch, they think it's.....oh"
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 10:50:08 AM
The Cov arena only holds 33,000. I can't see plans to share with any of our neighbours going down very well at all to be honest.
I agree it wouldn't go down well, but it's perhaps better than asking everyone to go to Wembley or the Millennium Stadium, which are the only other grounds that could be considered.
Post by: Monty on December 20, 2023, 10:50:35 AM
Post by: eamonn on December 20, 2023, 10:51:34 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 10:52:41 AM
I'm actually quite happy with the news. Disappointed we won't be 50k+ in the next couple of years, but overall I think we will get something better.
Chucking £100m+ now on one stand, knowing you will still be behind and still be limited in what you can do with the other three, isn't a no-brainer decision. The absolute best option as far as being competitive and growing the club, is a whole new stadium that is designed to generate the kind of revenue we need from the off.
Everything these owners have been doing has been about getting us up to an elite level. Why do we all worry they're now giving up on having an elite stadium?
I'd love a complete rebuild in our current site. We have plenty of land there, it's just annoyingly shaped. If something can be done about that, the prospect of a new top-of-the-range stadium with first class facilities funding a top four team has me drooling.
To be fair that's like me drooling over the idea of a night with Dua Lipa. It's a nice idea but the chances of it happening are less than zero. How on earth would we get a whole new stadium on the current site? Where would we play in the years it would take to demolish and rebuild? If they're pulling a face at one new stand, how is that you think they're going to demolish all four, especially when two of the stands are half decent and don't need improving yet. If they were going to do that it would make far more sense to just move and build somewhere else.
Our location should be good. And I think it generally would be if the transport stuff was sorted. There are stations and motorways close by; improve the stations and increase capacity, sort out a one-way system for cars, sorted.
I hardly think the chances are less than zero. The very fact they went so far with the new North shows they understand the need for it and have the appetite to invest heavily in the ground. We know they have the resources.
Putting something on hold because you feel there may be a better option is not the same as saying you want to do nothing. I actually like the fact they don't carry on with a plan they've realised now isn't the best idea, I wish more people in business and government had that confidence and strength.
Post by: Didier Five on December 20, 2023, 10:54:00 AM
Disappointed the North Stand isn't being renewed sooner but lets wait and see what plans Heck comes up with.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 10:54:30 AM
Post by: nigel on December 20, 2023, 10:55:34 AM
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
There was the same lot of questions to answer that we had last time. As you say, all he needed to say was "we don't think this refelcts how we want to move our brand further, and it's no use for online marketing so we're going to do it better" There would have been a few grumbles but I don't think many people liked the lion facing the wrong way anyway.
In the hospitality areas they've been handing out freebies (wash bag, travel mug, water bottle etc) in the last few weeks at most games, and it's all had this branding on it:
(https://i.ibb.co/6skZRqW/IMG-1149.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6skZRqW)
I reckon it's almost certain that what they're planning is this, or the the same with the lion facing the other way.
That is f*ckin’ perfect 👍
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 10:56:48 AM
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
There was the same lot of questions to answer that we had last time. As you say, all he needed to say was "we don't think this refelcts how we want to move our brand further, and it's no use for online marketing so we're going to do it better" There would have been a few grumbles but I don't think many people liked the lion facing the wrong way anyway.
In the hospitality areas they've been handing out freebies (wash bag, travel mug, water bottle etc) in the last few weeks at most games, and it's all had this branding on it:
(https://i.ibb.co/6skZRqW/IMG-1149.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6skZRqW)
I reckon it's almost certain that what they're planning is this, or the the same with the lion facing the other way.
That is f*ckin’ perfect 👍
Aside from his being menaced by a star, obviously. :P
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 11:00:06 AM
Post by: Monty on December 20, 2023, 11:00:14 AM
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 11:06:08 AM
There's been a large injection of capital into the holding company. We've taken on new shareholders of the parent company whose business it is to fund infrastructure and projects. We have added corporate spaces across the Holte, which as unpopular as they are with us, are clearly popular enough with others and are being used. A larger event space is about to go into works.
My own impression is that they don't care too much about transport, because the club don't need to. It's not and never has been our responsibility and planning conditions within the permission reflect that. That's my subjective take anyway.
I cant reconcile any of the objective facts, my own best guess with the notion that we don't want to do more or too quickly. It feels a poor choice of words to mask an excuse. "Thiughtful plans" sounds to me like a kind way of saying something is bad. Again that's my guess.
Looking at Arsenal, Spurs, Anfield; all have involved CPO and the fattening of existing housing stock. You want space, you want to attract business and a general gentrification in whole/part, helps. N17 and L4 are post codes with much incommon with B6.
I absolutely have zero patience and I understand the reaction to an extent from Risso et al. It's a bit like me when somebody puts onions on a sandwich. It's unacceptable and I'm going to make it known. But none of any of this makes sense with the things that have happened, are happening and have happened elsewhere, with the few words Heck has spoken.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 11:06:41 AM
i'd remove the aston villa lettering and just have the lion , certainly on the kits anyway
Something that haven't actually even done - Heck referred today to consulting with the fan base on the new badge. How have they done that? I must have missed it. They also present it as something they've done out of the goodness of their hearts rather than a Premier League requirement to consult, which is what it is.
There was the same lot of questions to answer that we had last time. As you say, all he needed to say was "we don't think this refelcts how we want to move our brand further, and it's no use for online marketing so we're going to do it better" There would have been a few grumbles but I don't think many people liked the lion facing the wrong way anyway.
In the hospitality areas they've been handing out freebies (wash bag, travel mug, water bottle etc) in the last few weeks at most games, and it's all had this branding on it:
(https://i.ibb.co/6skZRqW/IMG-1149.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6skZRqW)
I reckon it's almost certain that what they're planning is this, or the the same with the lion facing the other way.
That is f*ckin’ perfect 👍
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 11:11:54 AM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 11:13:29 AM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
I do like that we have four stands. It's a proper stadium.
But unfortunately, I think any new stadium would be an all-rounder so they can maximise those boxes and views for entertaining the rich.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 11:15:28 AM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
Shove it in the Lickey Hills?!
Post by: Rigadon on December 20, 2023, 11:24:16 AM
I'd be totally anti a new location for Villa Park.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 11:24:48 AM
help develop the Hawthorns ! i think i'll pass on that gem
Thankfully, you're not making the decisions.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 11:25:54 AM
I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?
I'd be totally anti a new location for Villa Park.
I agree with you.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on December 20, 2023, 11:27:37 AM
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
So a ground share with the the Albion it is then, if we want to occupy the highest league ground above sea level
Post by: LeeB on December 20, 2023, 11:33:05 AM
Post by: Demitri_C on December 20, 2023, 11:37:15 AM
Post by: Monty on December 20, 2023, 11:39:26 AM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
Nah, no moving. Rebuild on the site. The field exhales the ghosts of victors past, a piece of the true league title trophy and a fingernail of George Ramsay are buried beneath the centre spot, the grass that grows flowers and releases a pollen that enters unsuspecting nostrils and turns their heads and hearts towards B6, new Lions made biochemically.
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 11:43:40 AM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
Nah, no moving. Rebuild on the site. The field exhales the ghosts of victors past, a piece of the true league title trophy and a fingernail of George Ramsay are buried beneath the centre spot, the grass that grows flowers and releases a pollen that enters unsuspecting nostrils and turns their heads and hearts towards B6, new Lions made biochemically.
but if we rebuild on site how many years do we have to play elsewhere and where would we go? and how much extra land do we need to buy to get the footprint we'd need to go for a 60k beast with all the facilities you'd expect of a modern stadium?
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 11:44:16 AM
I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?.
But they've said the plan is for European football every season, so we'll have to do the job sometime, and its never going to get any cheaper. So why not now?
Post by: Monty on December 20, 2023, 11:44:38 AM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This is why I'd be open to moving, red brick all round, shared lower tier but split upper tiers to maintain 4 distinct stands and then the whole thing put on a bit of a plateau so you can see it for miles around.
Nah, no moving. Rebuild on the site. The field exhales the ghosts of victors past, a piece of the true league title trophy and a fingernail of George Ramsay are buried beneath the centre spot, the grass that grows flowers and releases a pollen that enters unsuspecting nostrils and turns their heads and hearts towards B6, new Lions made biochemically.
but if we rebuild on site how many years do we have to play elsewhere and where would we go? and how much extra land do we need to buy to get the footprint we'd need to go for a 60k beast with all the facilities you'd expect of a modern stadium?
Magic field Paul. Magic. Field.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 20, 2023, 11:45:09 AM
It's a bit like me when somebody puts onions on a sandwich. It's unacceptable and I'm going to make it known.
It's always disappointing when someone you respect goes down in your estimation. :(
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 20, 2023, 11:46:16 AM
It's a bit like me when somebody puts onions on a sandwich. It's unacceptable and I'm going to make it known.
It's always disappointing when someone you respect goes down in your estimation. :(
Cheese pickle onions surely ?
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 11:46:32 AM
I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?.
But they've said the plan is for European football every season, so we'll have to do the job sometime, and its never going to get any cheaper. So why not now?
because the year after wouldn't be the 150th anniversary and the first year in the champions league? and also delaying for a year (if that's what happens) means we can concentrate on improving the ground as a whole next summer, which would be a big positive.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 11:49:46 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 11:57:00 AM
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 11:57:31 AM
I cant say I picked up strong vibes that this was a 1 year delay to the construction project.
No, very clearly not.
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 12:04:17 PM
I cant say I picked up strong vibes that this was a 1 year delay to the construction project.
No, nor did I, but I was just pointing out why you might want to do that for next season, and I could just about see the sense of it. Any delay beyond that is hard to justify but as I said yesterday maybe they want the time to find ways to only have a partial reduction or a much shorter timescale for it, something like Liverpool did for example.
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on December 20, 2023, 12:04:51 PM
Does it makes sense to spend £100m now and lose the fans/atmosphere for the next two, potentially vital, seasons? Probably not, especially given £100m probably only allows us to catch up on other clubs/stadia.
Maybe the thinking/ambition is to consolidate being competitive, even winning stuff, and then deliver plans that do more than play catch up with the likes of Everton, etc.
I think a lot of people recognise a pause is sensible, though the lack of detail creates uncertainty and all sorts of speculation (moving from B6 etc.).
It is also frustrating that we've had a number of plans and little actually delivered - other than the new academy that has shot up on Witton Road.
Maybe it is the euphoria of current progress on the pitch, but with the new investment and the evident ambition of the owners, I'm minded to believe that the pause is not prompted by timidity, rather it is that we might be playing CL football next season and that means they are considering an even bolder option whilst seeking to ensure a full Villa Park for what would be some of our biggest games in a generation. UTV.
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 12:05:05 PM
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 12:06:48 PM
I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?
I'd be totally anti a new location for Villa Park.
The Holte was mid construction when we played Inter Milan in 1994. The lower Witton was being rebuilt when we thumped Man United's kids 3-1.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 12:07:00 PM
I agree. The construction as it was explained is not going to happen.
Said it earlier, but the Atairos investment going into 'infrastructure' and V-Sports this week, plus this a few days later, it's not a coinicidence.
I reckon new ground entirely (same location).
Post by: Rigadon on December 20, 2023, 12:07:34 PM
I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?.
But they've said the plan is for European football every season, so we'll have to do the job sometime, and its never going to get any cheaper. So why not now?
because the year after wouldn't be the 150th anniversary and the first year in the champions league? and also delaying for a year (if that's what happens) means we can concentrate on improving the ground as a whole next summer, which would be a big positive.
Exactly - the first time back in the European Cup for over 4 decades would be a bit special in the same year that the club turns 150. I wouldn’t want that to happen with the stadium being rebuilt personally. And for as many of us as possible to actually go and see. Do it the year after (and please don’t move the bloody stadium).
Post by: Pat Mustard on December 20, 2023, 12:10:25 PM
I cant say I picked up strong vibes that this was a 1 year delay to the construction project.
Me neither, and you would think if that was the case someone at the club might have come out and clarified it by now.
Giving him the benefit of some doubt, however, I could see an argument that delaying be a year would help. With no concerts planned for 2025 work on the new stand could start in early May 2025, rather than early July 2024, and a change in how it's built could feasibly mean part of the stand opening part way through the following season, as we did with the Holte End. A full lower tier of 8,000 open by the Christmas (again like the Holte was), and we would actually be above the current capacity only 9 or 10 home games into 2025-26.
Alternatively, knock down the whole stand down over the summer and have a temporary stand in place for part of the following season whilst they do all the remedial works - it's what Wrexham are doing currently.
Post by: LeeB on December 20, 2023, 12:11:14 PM
I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?
I'd be totally anti a new location for Villa Park.
The Holte was mid construction when we played Inter Milan in 1994. The lower Witton was being rebuilt when we thumped Man United's kids 3-1.
And both times after
I agree. The construction as it was explained is not going to happen.
Said it earlier, but the Atairos investment going into 'infrastructure' and V-Sports this week, plus this a few days later, it's not a coinicidence.
I reckon new ground entirely (same location).
I do too, though not necessarily same location, more likely one of the brownfield sites mentioned.
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 12:11:43 PM
I agree. The construction as it was explained is not going to happen.
Said it earlier, but the Atairos investment going into 'infrastructure' and V-Sports this week, plus this a few days later, it's not a coinicidence.
I reckon new ground entirely (same location).
Yeah I think you're definitely in the right ball park at least. It will something like that. That we're demolishing your much loved stadium or moving or buying up Aston (CPO) is probably a dish best served when it's all thought out.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 12:15:20 PM
I agree. The construction as it was explained is not going to happen.
Said it earlier, but the Atairos investment going into 'infrastructure' and V-Sports this week, plus this a few days later, it's not a coinicidence.
I reckon new ground entirely (same location).
Yeah I think you're definitely in the right ball park at least. It will something like that. That we're demolishing your much loved stadium or moving or buying up Aston (CPO) is probably a dish best served when it's all thought out.
Exactly. The line that there are no plans for a new stadium are true. They need to look into it in a lot of detail before anything is decided.
Post by: LeeB on December 20, 2023, 12:15:22 PM
Stick that up your cheese room, Spurs.
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 12:15:26 PM
Post by: FatSam on December 20, 2023, 12:16:10 PM
So our performances actually improve during building works! You might be on to something!I read it thinking tat they want to maximise the revenue of potential CL football next season. Can't do that with 3/4 (at best) capacity. I kind of agree with it if it's on that basis. Would we really want our first modern era CL campaign being played at a building site?
I'd be totally anti a new location for Villa Park.
The Holte was mid construction when we played Inter Milan in 1994. The lower Witton was being rebuilt when we thumped Man United's kids 3-1.
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 12:22:25 PM
Heck might not even be working at Villa in three years time and we may still be talking about a hypothetical new plan and asking why we didn't stick with the one we had.
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 12:24:15 PM
Post by: OCD on December 20, 2023, 12:27:37 PM
It sounds like the development of the North Stand is being put back a year. You could hear Emery's influence in the comment about not wanting to have a stand closed. I think 'in the short-term' was being implied. It makes sense to make a big thing about being the first big club to celebrate their 150th anniversary, and to do so in front of a packed out ground (hopefully in the Champions League).
I'll be interested to see what they do the training ground as that will have Monchi/Emery's input and both will want to make the academy more attractive to the best prospects around. We need to be having more individual talents coming through that can either challenge for first team squad places or be sold for millions. Add Champions League revenue and increases in commercial income and we'll be an attractive to a category of players that wouldn't have given us a second glance before.
Post by: HolteL4 on December 20, 2023, 12:27:51 PM
He's not hiding anything, it's in clear sight: "Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast"
He's been here 6 months and the plans were well advanced before he got here. Let him figure out what is best before criticising him for cancelling plans that weren't even his.
But that is clearly a load of absolute nonsense. As I said before, we've got the 8th biggest stadium in the country, and it's miles smaller than those in the top 7. Also the facilities in the North are shite, and the hospitality offering is terrble too, as behind glass executive boxes went out with the Ark. 10,000 clearly isn't too many seats, and it's certainly not too fast. The stadium expansion is an investment in our future, and unlike many investments it's an almost guaranteed massive boost to revenue. There's only so much further they're going to be able to increase season ticket prices, and that won't go anywhere near to matching what the extra capacity would have brought in.
It's like investing in the first team, if you don't do it and are happy to stand still, sooner or later you get left behind.
You seem to be having almost a meltdown over this and I'm not sure why? He hasn't said we aren't going to address any of the issues you raised, he just said the current plans are being shelved. Also you are stating as fact that 10,000 seats isn't too many - how do you know? He literally said it's too many to fast, so he thinks it is and probably has access to data that you don't.
Again, he's been here 6 months, give him a chance to get his ducks in a row and then let's see what he comes up with.
But the past few seasons we've had huge price increases and been reminded about the 30k waiting list so basically telling us either buy your ticket or you'll be instantly replaced, but now we are being told that 10k extra is too many.... It stinks basically he's either lying or he's lying, everyone here kept laughing at Flintstone when he said the waiting list was a myth. After what Heck said yesterday it sounds like he could have been right all along.
Also read between the lines Heck said part of it was down to the infrastructure around Villa Park, well Astons infrastructure structure isn't going to change radically in the next few years so Heck has pretty much said an increase of capacity will only done with a ground move he's just been a politician about it and not actually said the words. But it's clear that's the way he's going.
Post by: BC Villain on December 20, 2023, 12:34:51 PM
Alexandra stadium & Birmingham City Council selling off its assets........ 2+2=5 ?
Playing in an athletic stadium? No thanks
Post by: London Villan on December 20, 2023, 12:35:52 PM
At best we'd only have 25,000 seats open - and could it even feasibly be done, without us decamping somewhere for a couple of seasons?
Post by: algy on December 20, 2023, 12:43:39 PM
I'd imagine something like buying up a small chunk of Aston Park; moving the ground due South a little bit; deconstructing the current Holte End facade brick-by-brick; and reconstructing the Holte End as it looks currently (maybe improving the internal bits).
In my head, you'd then be able to completely rebuild the Witton Lane stand without the current constraints - we'd be rebuilding the North Stand anyway so no change there. The only downside is flattening the current Trinity Road stand, which is alright .... but it's not to say we couldn't build one that's even better. Brand new 60k+ capacity ground, same location, no significant loss of capacity at any point.
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 12:45:12 PM
With all due respect I couldn't care less about the training ground right now. They seem to have redeveloped Bodymoor Heath 5 or 6 times since about 2007.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 12:45:27 PM
we could rival West Ham for worst away end everAlexandra stadium & Birmingham City Council selling off its assets........ 2+2=5 ?
Playing in an athletic stadium? No thanks
Post by: Bad English on December 20, 2023, 12:46:57 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 12:48:00 PM
You could fit a Spurs-size stadium in there in two ways;
- Centred just behind the North Stand - but only by removing the houses by the coach park and on McGregor Close.
- Centred roughly in the same place, but shifted towards Aston Hall - but only if we re-routed Trinity Rd and took up part of the land on the other side.
I'd definitely be in favour of the second option as it keeps the ground where it is, doesn't mean taking over houses, and still leaves plenty of space for other things around the ground.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 20, 2023, 12:48:08 PM
Realistically, how big would Villa Park need to be, longer term. Spurs and Arsenal appear to have set their stalls out on low 60k, with no obvious way to expand either THS or Emirates. Meanwhile, Old Trafford is at 75k but is apparently falling down, an issue Yanited's owners will have to.address sooner or later.
A move away would take a long time to come to fruition because of planning, red tape, etc, and anger a lot of supporters. The only disruption here would be that of everyone's matchday routine being scuppered, as it will be for Everton fans in a few seasons.
Knocking down and rebuilding would cause an immense amount of disruption at best, at worst it would require a ground share with those oh-so-loveable Boing-Boings.
Meanwhile, flattening the North Stand and rebuilding is the obvious way to go, given that it is the smallest of the four stands currently. A further expansion of the HDE could come along later if there is thought to be demand. I think the purchase of properties behind the stand, while not everyone's cup of tea, would be inevitable in the event of such an expansion.
Post by: Walmley_Villa on December 20, 2023, 12:49:30 PM
I am too lazy to quote whoever it was but somebody mentioned the plans for the training ground.
With all due respect I couldn't care less about the training ground right now. They seem to have redeveloped Bodymoor Heath 5 or 6 times since about 2007.
Unai wants a player/staff hotel similar to Man City - I'm assuming this is part of it
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 12:53:55 PM
I'm not the slightest bit convinced that there will be a rebuild in the current location.
Realistically, how big would Villa Park need to be, longer term. Spurs and Arsenal appear to have set their stalls out on low 60k, with no obvious way to expand either THS or Emirates. Meanwhile, Old Trafford is at 75k but is apparently falling down, an issue Yanited's owners will have to.address sooner or later.
A move away would take a long time to come to fruition because of planning, red tape, etc, and anger a lot of supporters. The only disruption here would be that of everyone's matchday routine being scuppered, as it will be for Everton fans in a few seasons.
Knocking down and rebuilding would cause an immense amount of disruption at best, at worst it would require a ground share with those oh-so-loveable Boing-Boings.
Meanwhile, flattening the North Stand and rebuilding is the obvious way to go, given that it is the smallest of the four stands currently. A further expansion of the HDE could come along later if there is thought to be demand. I think the purchase of properties behind the stand, while not everyone's cup of tea, would be inevitable in the event of such an expansion.
That's true if it were still the case that everyone just wants more seats. Stadium design has shifted to offering premium experiences that people will pay more for. The number of seats at the Spurs ground isn't what's generating them an extra £60m a year - it's all the more expensive premium experiences the new ground allows them to offer.
We can add seats, but we are limited on space in offering those premium options in our existing stands. Hence the issues with the Holte End - they're trying to have their cake and eat it, and it's not working.
A new stadium will not only allow us to increase seats, but will allow us to generate more revenue offering premium experiences to those that will pay, without aliening those of us who just want a spot we can sit and stand in for the game and no more.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 20, 2023, 12:56:32 PM
I'm as pissed off as the next man that ground redevelopments have been shelved. I couldn't wait for a new North stand then a new Doug Ellis stand. We would have had a truly unique 60k wonder stadium.
But to say we are now gonna be left behind and can't reach the next level staying as is for the next several years is untrue.
Chelsea have the exact same size stadium. Has it stopped them becoming a world force with several Premier leagues and Champions Leagues to there name? No.
But Chelsea had the advantage of a wealthy money laundering (allegedly) owner who poured silly money into the club before FFP was invented so that other clubs could not catch up by using the same tactic.
They then utilised the academy sale & longer contracts to get round FFP, & then again, the loophole was closed so that others couldn't use the same tactic.
Chelsea & ManC have had extraordinary benefits to catapult themselves into a position where their sponsorship income can cover the lack of seats for Chelsea, & lack of arses on seats for ManC, that Villa have not had.
So we need to build our revenue to be able to compete in other ways, & tbh, the only real thing we can do at this stage in our development is to build more seats in the stadium...
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 12:57:18 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 12:58:57 PM
any new stadium would be at least 7-8 years away from a ball being kicked there , probably longer unless its Perry Barr extension. I think what Heck might be doing is not wanting to blow £100M on the North stand whilst all options are reviewed again in full.
Exactly. Look at the grief over a badge, imagine the reaction when they spend £100m+ on a stand and then within two years announce they want to build a new stadium.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 20, 2023, 01:04:04 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
Post by: olaftab on December 20, 2023, 01:13:29 PM
Buy up Aston Park and build the stadium around the Hall, therefore being the only place in the world you can enjoy world class matchday hospitality inside a 17th century Jacobean house.If Mary Holte turns up and sits in my seat I will be pissed off or sitting in her lap :D
Stick that up your cheese room, Spurs.
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on December 20, 2023, 01:19:26 PM
I'm not going to second guess the best option of moving the pitch 100 yards in one direction or 90 degree turns or whatever, but it would be great to see it opened for 2027/28 to mark our 130th anniversary at Villa Park.
I might just check if Alexander Stadium has any major events planned in the next couple of years. :D
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 01:28:07 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 20, 2023, 01:30:33 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 20, 2023, 01:32:09 PM
My guess is that releasing the news now is so that most people forget about it over Christmas.I'm guessing you're not one of those on the waiting list. I've waited for years for me and my two sons to be able to get season tickets together. My youngest enlisted us and we're about 9000th on the list.This has come as a kick in the teeth for us and the worst part is the cold way it was announced just "it's not happening" without any suggestion of what actually WILL be happening. So yes I'm pissed off about it and I believe I have every right to be alongside the thousands of other genuine hopefuls who joined the waiting list.
It seems like a radical change without a further plan at this point. I very much doubt that's the case, but perhaps they just aren't at a point to share what the new plan is?
If it's a move, that's fucking huge.
If it's rail seating, it's radical.
Maybe ticket sales are about right, there's demand enough to sell out but not enough to sell an additional 10k.
Maybe they'll fill in the corners.
Perhaps it's brinkmanship to get Witton Station done.
Perhaps they realise that better facilities in what we've got will be more of a revenue generator.
Do the outside first, get revenue per head up before developing.
Of course the ground would look super shit to everyone else if we get Champions League and then have to play in reduced capacity and who knows the effect it could have.
We're 150 next year, and if we do that well it will improve our standing. I suspect there are good plans for it.
What I don't get right now is the reason people are so pissed off.
Me and my two are numbered about 35,000 and something on the list. We had to drop to the bottom when my daughter got the bug - there’s no way me and my son could have season tickets without her now.
Yours, Pissed Off, Chelmsley Wood.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 01:36:51 PM
the old trinity facade should have been a listed buildingI could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 20, 2023, 01:38:21 PM
the old trinity facade should have been a listed buildingI could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
It couldn't be listed for reasons gone into many times.
Post by: usav on December 20, 2023, 01:40:49 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
Post by: Monty on December 20, 2023, 01:42:03 PM
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 01:48:49 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/wyMJSqY/0a43d8cc-fd9c-4ec1-a8bd-521bc3356528.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wyMJSqY)
I'd prefer gaps in the corners on the upper tier but from the outside it's what a Villa Stadium should look like.
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 01:49:55 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 01:55:10 PM
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 01:59:55 PM
Is it on Mount Olympus?
AI does some weird shit so but the other one that looked right (from the first 4 it came up with) was...
(https://i.ibb.co/NNV3Gwr/ff17af12-f556-41bd-97a1-ad89b8124f6d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNV3Gwr)
I preferred the steps up to the ground though.
EDIT: JUst don't look too closely at the river, houses and cars.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 02:08:21 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 02:09:15 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
Thats nice that. $720m build cost. It also seems to lose a small fortune every year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Oil_Stadium
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 02:10:41 PM
That's brilliant, get it built.Seconded. I absolutely love that. A huge nod to our red brick past. We might be the only club with enough history on our hallowed ground to pull that off 😁
Post by: Axl Rose on December 20, 2023, 02:13:14 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
That one and the Vikings stadium, I like.
With the added red bricks, of course.
(https://i.ibb.co/wzQjcDw/banner-image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzQjcDw)
(https://i.ibb.co/K6VhR8r/Panorama-US-Bank-Stadium-Interior-1-2.webp) (https://ibb.co/K6VhR8r)
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 02:16:54 PM
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 02:22:34 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
It's nice inside too. And holds 67,000 people......
(https://www.stadiumsofprofootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lucas16_top.jpg)
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 20, 2023, 02:23:41 PM
Post by: SamTheMouse on December 20, 2023, 02:24:23 PM
Is it on Mount Olympus?
AI does some weird shit so but the other one that looked right (from the first 4 it came up with) was...
(https://i.ibb.co/NNV3Gwr/ff17af12-f556-41bd-97a1-ad89b8124f6d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNV3Gwr)
I preferred the steps up to the ground though.
EDIT: JUst don't look too closely at the river, houses and cars.
Beautiful. Reminds me of St Pancras' station.
Post by: curiousorange on December 20, 2023, 02:24:36 PM
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 02:27:19 PM
That looks horrible.
In comparison to what we have now, I agree, but in comparison to other new stadia, it's miles better.
Post by: LeeS on December 20, 2023, 02:27:40 PM
Post by: FatSam on December 20, 2023, 02:43:30 PM
I think Arsenal's ground is shite, a soulless bowl. Just a bigger version of Reading's ground.
Would rather stick to Villa Park than do that.
If you are planning to build a new stadium, it needs to be unique and not an identikit stadium. Tottenham and proposed Everton stadium for example.
The difference being that the Spurs and Everton stadia are more recent. Spurs in particular were able to look at what Arsenal had done and improve on it in pretty much every way.
Post by: usav on December 20, 2023, 02:44:03 PM
That looks horrible.
Oops the teacher's back, everyone put the toys away.
Post by: Axl Rose on December 20, 2023, 02:58:46 PM
I don't like that one, looks like the outside of a Mediterranean airport
😂 You're right, actually!
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 20, 2023, 03:10:13 PM
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
Thats got a similar feel, but it's not quite right for us.
Reminds me of a train station a bit with that roof...
Is it on Mount Olympus?
AI does some weird shit so but the other one that looked right (from the first 4 it came up with) was...
(https://i.ibb.co/NNV3Gwr/ff17af12-f556-41bd-97a1-ad89b8124f6d.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNV3Gwr)
I preferred the steps up to the ground though.
EDIT: JUst don't look too closely at the river, houses and cars.
This, with the steps you showed earlier, the mosaics, the stained glass windows, etc, is pretty much how I would like to see our cathedral of a stadium.
The Holte shows us the way. Wrap that around the rest of the stadium & it would be the greatest stadium in the world...
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 20, 2023, 03:13:59 PM
That looks horrible.
It’s the cheerleaders and Pom poms isn’t it?
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 03:14:35 PM
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 20, 2023, 03:16:17 PM
It looks a bit like a factory.
A factory of joy.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 20, 2023, 03:16:29 PM
It looks a bit like a factory.
Yeah, thats it nailed.
A factory.
From Germany.
In the 40's.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on December 20, 2023, 03:19:35 PM
It looks a bit like a factory.
A nice nod to Archibald Leitch, who in his only obituary was simply described as a factory architect.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 03:19:59 PM
Heck has had 24 hours to decide on something and we've come to a decision in a few hours this afternoon. Get that one with the steps built, and be quicker about it than you were with the badge.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 03:21:03 PM
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 03:31:27 PM
It looks a bit like a factory.
A nice nod to Archibald Leitch, who in his only obituary was simply described as a factory architect.
Villa Park wouldn't look out of place in the JQ, and I mean that in a good way.
Post by: robleflaneur on December 20, 2023, 03:34:06 PM
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
Post by: LeeS on December 20, 2023, 03:43:19 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
They'd have to close at least 2 of the stands when Blues were playing
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 03:45:45 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 20, 2023, 03:46:05 PM
It looks a bit like a factory.
Yep, intentional. It's a superb stadium to visit and especially much of what is around it that gets you there early and means you don't have to peg it right after. I want any Villa Park future design if it came to that to be very much in line with the history of the club and area. Modern interior, wide concourses, seats with leg room, brillaint food and drinks vendors, lots of facilities but when you approach the ground you know it's Villa Park.
Post by: eamonn on December 20, 2023, 03:48:17 PM
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 03:49:33 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
What the fuckety fuck have I just read?
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 03:49:50 PM
It looks a bit like a factory.
Yep, intentional. It's a superb stadium to visit and especially much of what is around it that gets you there early and means you don't have to peg it right after. I want any Villa Park future design if it came to that to be very much in line with the history of the club and area. Modern interior, wide concourses, seats with leg room, brillaint food and drinks vendors, lots of facilities but when you approach the ground you know it's Villa Park.
Very easily done, as they proved with the current Holte facade, which really isn't anything other than the football stadium equivalent of a mock Tudor semi.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 03:52:29 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
What the fuckety fuck have I just read?
I think I said similar earlier in the thread, given his background I'd imagine that he will at least consider it. We need to make sure he's not considering it for long.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 03:54:32 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
What the fuckety fuck have I just read?
I think I said similar earlier in the thread, given his background I'd imagine that he will at least consider it. We need to make sure he's not considering it for long.
Can't see it happening. Can you imagine the uproar when they replace the contractor with Wayne Rooney and his mates?
Post by: Ads on December 20, 2023, 03:56:34 PM
Post by: LeeS on December 20, 2023, 03:59:46 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/search_for_a_new_wembley/1518339.stm
Post by: Olneythelonely on December 20, 2023, 04:01:00 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
Tom Brady? Is that you?
Post by: PeterWithe on December 20, 2023, 04:02:17 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
What the fuckety fuck have I just read?
I think I said similar earlier in the thread, given his background I'd imagine that he will at least consider it. We need to make sure he's not considering it for long.
Can't see it happening. Can you imagine the uproar when they replace the contractor with Wayne Rooney and his mates?
Well no, it wont, it cant. Both sets of fans would be vociforously against it and unlike the US there isn't the city or state funding to help build it. But I bet he doesn't get the potential strength of feeling against it. Yet.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 04:03:01 PM
What about Perry Bar dog track as a site?Alexander Stadium would make better sense
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 04:04:54 PM
They could always dust off these plansThe HDE Arena
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/in_depth/2001/search_for_a_new_wembley/1518339.stm
Post by: luke95 on December 20, 2023, 04:08:49 PM
What about Perry Bar dog track as a site?
No where near big enough
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 04:08:54 PM
What about Perry Bar dog track as a site?Alexander Stadium would make better sense
It would.
Post by: jcsutv on December 20, 2023, 04:20:34 PM
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 20, 2023, 04:21:44 PM
Post by: Chris Smith on December 20, 2023, 04:22:02 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 04:24:27 PM
Could the stadium redevelopment have an impact on FFP?
Infrastructure investment doesn't sit within FFP.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 20, 2023, 04:25:04 PM
I'm not sure why people keep saying this. There's no part of the current stadium that is reusable, access is still pretty poor and there's no car parking. Even at less than half our target capacity, with coaches shipped in from all around the country and pretty staggered arrivals it was still a pain in the arse to get there. On top of that it's an athletics track and I imagine UK Athletics intend to keep it that way.What about Perry Bar dog track as a site?Alexander Stadium would make better sense
Post by: Risso on December 20, 2023, 04:25:10 PM
Could the stadium redevelopment have an impact on FFP?
The extra revenue from 10,000 more seats and extra hospitality would, yes, for the better.
Post by: chrisw1 on December 20, 2023, 04:29:14 PM
What does he want to do? Add less seats slower? How's he going to do that then?
Post by: eamonn on December 20, 2023, 04:29:40 PM
Perhaps I need to crank up my sense of cynicism but to me it seemed that all he was saying was that the increase in capacity needs to be done in conjunction with improvements to the transport infrastructure and until that was properly addressed he saw little point in reducing capacity in the short term.
Chris, where is that firebrand within you?! Animate!
Post by: Gareth on December 20, 2023, 04:33:47 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
I thought that was Wembley Arena at first
Post by: UK Redsox on December 20, 2023, 04:39:02 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
What the fuckety fuck have I just read?
Don't worry Ads, I plan to have words with Rob on Friday :)
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on December 20, 2023, 04:44:28 PM
Plus, our stadium has very little history left already now. It's 70s - 00s, aside from the location.
It's surprising how many away fans don't realise this.
I was listening to a football podcast recently and they discussed Villa Park, and the one guy said he was going there in a few weeks and he was really excited as it's such a historic ground etc etc, and then specifically said he was looking forward to seeing Archibald Leitch's work.
Good luck with that.
I also think a lot of away fans think the rear of the Holte End is 100 years old and a remnant of a historic part of the ground which has survived the years.
'This ground has had 14 new pitches and 4 new stands in the last 40 years.' 'How the hell is it the same bleeding ground then?'
Post by: London Villan on December 20, 2023, 04:49:29 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 04:56:12 PM
does have that vibe to it minus the 70's brutalistic concreteI could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Like this?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Indianapolis-1872530.jpg/1200px-Indianapolis-1872530.jpg)
I thought that was Wembley Arena at first
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 04:58:44 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 20, 2023, 04:58:52 PM
We take VP for granted as it's ours and we're used to it, but we're very lucky to have it. Anfield, OT, Emirates, Goodison etc rarely get talked about the way VP regularly does by others. And that's from anoraks that love football grounds to fans making their first visit and seeing their side lose.
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 05:01:44 PM
Perhaps there's another thought about the new stand. a redesign with a single massive tier or something. Who knows.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 20, 2023, 05:04:35 PM
Most away fans know how modern the stands are, certainly the ones with any interest in grounds. From my experience from being in a number of groups/forums that are to do with grounds, Villa Park is the most popular ground in the country for neutrals and away fans. That covers the past with the AV floodlights, old Trinity and Holte up to fans making their first visits now. And that's despite away fans having shit facilities.
We take VP for granted as it's ours and we're used to it, but we're very lucky to have it. Anfield, OT, Emirates, Goodison etc rarely get talked about the way VP regularly does by others. And that's from anoraks that love football grounds to fans making their first visit and seeing their side lose.
Agree with this, that's the impression I get on other clubs' forms.
Post by: olaftab on December 20, 2023, 05:04:38 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 05:04:45 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 20, 2023, 05:05:38 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 05:05:43 PM
It's a large, noisy, intimidating ground. And now it has an intimidating team, which will make it more attractive for away fans to visit.i think that would work better than an upper and a lower
Perhaps there's another thought about the new stand. a redesign with a single massive tier or something. Who knows.
Post by: Somniloquism on December 20, 2023, 05:06:17 PM
Could the stadium redevelopment have an impact on FFP?
Infrastructure investment doesn't sit within FFP.
Wasn't that the argument Everton had before they had the points deduction?
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 05:06:41 PM
Most away fans know how modern the stands are, certainly the ones with any interest in grounds. From my experience from being in a number of groups/forums that are to do with grounds, Villa Park is the most popular ground in the country for neutrals and away fans. That covers the past with the AV floodlights, old Trinity and Holte up to fans making their first visits now. And that's despite away fans having shit facilities.i quite like Goodison in the sense its an old proper ground with loads of character and history. Be another sad day when it goes
We take VP for granted as it's ours and we're used to it, but we're very lucky to have it. Anfield, OT, Emirates, Goodison etc rarely get talked about the way VP regularly does by others. And that's from anoraks that love football grounds to fans making their first visit and seeing their side lose.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 20, 2023, 05:06:50 PM
Could it be possible that ,in the back of Heck's mind, that the proposed 'delay' might get the Blues US owners interested in a groundshare of a new stadium ?
Fans would be up in arms but we have 2 sets of US owners whose main aim is revenue.
On the Christmas Sherry early, I see.
Post by: HolteL4 on December 20, 2023, 05:12:19 PM
Post by: andyh on December 20, 2023, 05:16:06 PM
Beautiful. I’d even contemplate a move if meant to something like these.
Apologies, I don’t know how to post the pics, only the link.
It’s worth looking at though.
https://x.com/HabZ360/status/1737481107229032733?s=20
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on December 20, 2023, 05:24:04 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Doug, you're back?
Post by: Drummond on December 20, 2023, 05:24:40 PM
It's a large, noisy, intimidating ground. And now it has an intimidating team, which will make it more attractive for away fans to visit.i think that would work better than an upper and a lower
Perhaps there's another thought about the new stand. a redesign with a single massive tier or something. Who knows.
It would for fans and atmosphere but would fail in terms of corporate.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on December 20, 2023, 05:26:23 PM
If / When we move it will be somewhere secluded and pretty cut off from the city centre so the fans are a captive audience and have no choice but to pay his prices if we want a drink. It's probably giving him sleepless nights that he hikes the prices up at Villa Park and we respond with spending money in the pubs in the City Centre instead.
Drinking in the city centre?! You're either mad or hard.
Post by: paul_e on December 20, 2023, 05:27:57 PM
Could the stadium redevelopment have an impact on FFP?
Infrastructure investment doesn't sit within FFP.
Wasn't that the argument Everton had before they had the points deduction?
No, or more accurately not really. The best explanation I can find is here - https://www.blakemorgan.co.uk/sticky-toffees-why-everton-were-docked-10-points/
The infrastructure part is covered specifically by this bit:
Quote
£2.2m interest charged by Everton to Everton Stadium Development Ltd (a subsidiary of the club responsible for expenditure on the construction of a new stadium) in relation to an intercompany loan which was designed to “pass on” interest charges payable by the club to the club’s commercial lenders. Everton’s position was that any interest attributable to expenditure on the stadium should be excluded from its calculations and argued that accounting standards meant that the commercial loans would have been repaid or never drawn down had it not been for stadium redevelopment and, as such, could be capitalised as they were directly attributable to a qualifying asset (the new stadium) and therefore excluded from calculations.
but, as the article shows, even if that bit was allowed (and the creative accounting around transfer levies as well) they had still breached the losses, just not as heavily.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 20, 2023, 05:37:37 PM
I could stomach a rebuild on the current site as long as that red brick façade is left absolutely fucking pristine and untouched. Actually, build red brick façades round the whole god damn ground.
This.
Architecturally The Holte End is the single most beautiful section of any football ground in the whole world.
Keep that style as a façade all around the stadium...
It's just a relatively new red brick wall, not hard to do at all.
Yeah, I have seen it done in cladding sheets, as opposed to actual proper brick walls.
Its only the effect we are after, so the cladding would do well enough on a modern structure...
Doug, you're back?
Steady... 😂
Post by: Hairbandinho on December 20, 2023, 05:55:21 PM
More than likely never going to happen ... though I am warming to the idea of two seasons at a 40,000-seater upgraded Alexander Stadium and then back into a new Villa Park on the existing site.
I'm not going to second guess the best option of moving the pitch 100 yards in one direction or 90 degree turns or whatever, but it would be great to see it opened for 2027/28 to mark our 130th anniversary at Villa Park.
I might just check if Alexander Stadium has any major events planned in the next couple of years. :D
Alexander Stadium is protected from any issues the council have currently. Villa and the council couldn't even agree having villa women to play there, it's fair to say you can forget using that location in any way at all for football.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 05:58:16 PM
BCC are desperate for money now thoughMore than likely never going to happen ... though I am warming to the idea of two seasons at a 40,000-seater upgraded Alexander Stadium and then back into a new Villa Park on the existing site.
I'm not going to second guess the best option of moving the pitch 100 yards in one direction or 90 degree turns or whatever, but it would be great to see it opened for 2027/28 to mark our 130th anniversary at Villa Park.
I might just check if Alexander Stadium has any major events planned in the next couple of years. :D
Alexander Stadium is protected from any issues the council have currently. Villa and the council couldn't even agree having villa women to play there, it's fair to say you can forget using that location in any way at all for football.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 20, 2023, 06:07:06 PM
Post by: eamonn on December 20, 2023, 06:07:14 PM
If / When we move it will be somewhere secluded and pretty cut off from the city centre so the fans are a captive audience and have no choice but to pay his prices if we want a drink. It's probably giving him sleepless nights that he hikes the prices up at Villa Park and we respond with spending money in the pubs in the City Centre instead.
Drinking in the city centre?! You're either mad or hard.
Yes, but...This city is a woman, bigger than any other.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 06:18:49 PM
It’s hardly a UNESCO site.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 06:20:10 PM
It's a large, noisy, intimidating ground. And now it has an intimidating team, which will make it more attractive for away fans to visit.i think that would work better than an upper and a lower
Perhaps there's another thought about the new stand. a redesign with a single massive tier or something. Who knows.
There is absolutely zero chance it would be built as one tier. That would rule out hospitality. Not a chance.
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 06:29:06 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 06:36:05 PM
What about Perry Bar dog track as a site?Not big enough. Penned in by major roads.
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 06:39:08 PM
glad some of the posters here aren't architectsSome? Probably 99.9% on here are laymen just chewing the fat. If you're an architect give us your views on redeveloping the existing site.
Post by: BC Villain on December 20, 2023, 06:43:42 PM
What about Perry Bar dog track as a site?Not big enough. Penned in by major roads.
I'm sure that's already earmarked for redevelopment with the dogs and speedway given until 2026?
Post by: Bad English on December 20, 2023, 06:44:01 PM
The back of the Holte end looks alright but it’s just some 1990s bricks and a 2000s tile mosaicWith an MS Paint badge in the middle.
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 06:48:16 PM
I've got a picture of it. What more proof do you need?Plus, our stadium has very little history left already now. It's 70s - 00s, aside from the location.
It's surprising how many away fans don't realise this.
I was listening to a football podcast recently and they discussed Villa Park, and the one guy said he was going there in a few weeks and he was really excited as it's such a historic ground etc etc, and then specifically said he was looking forward to seeing Archibald Leitch's work.
Good luck with that.
I also think a lot of away fans think the rear of the Holte End is 100 years old and a remnant of a historic part of the ground which has survived the years.
'This ground has had 14 new pitches and 4 new stands in the last 40 years.' 'How the hell is it the same bleeding ground then?'
Post by: TonyD on December 20, 2023, 07:01:44 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 07:06:08 PM
If 10,000 seats are too many too quickly, then that would also rule out a new ground unless it was similar to VP now.or maybe he's talking in riddles
Post by: TonyD on December 20, 2023, 07:10:50 PM
Shit we’re going to get Dusty Bin.If 10,000 seats are too many too quickly, then that would also rule out a new ground unless it was similar to VP now.or maybe he's talking in riddles
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 07:12:59 PM
Chris Heck now forever to be known my the nickname "Whatthe"If 10,000 seats are too many too quickly, then that would also rule out a new ground unless it was similar to VP now.or maybe he's talking in riddles
Post by: Nunkin1965 on December 20, 2023, 07:13:47 PM
Brilliant stuffShit we’re going to get Dusty Bin.If 10,000 seats are too many too quickly, then that would also rule out a new ground unless it was similar to VP now.or maybe he's talking in riddles
Now I've got Ted Rogers and the theme tune in my head.
Post by: BC Villain on December 20, 2023, 08:34:36 PM
More than likely never going to happen ... though I am warming to the idea of two seasons at a 40,000-seater upgraded Alexander Stadium and then back into a new Villa Park on the existing site.
I'm not going to second guess the best option of moving the pitch 100 yards in one direction or 90 degree turns or whatever, but it would be great to see it opened for 2027/28 to mark our 130th anniversary at Villa Park.
I might just check if Alexander Stadium has any major events planned in the next couple of years. :D
Alexander Stadium is protected from any issues the council have currently. Villa and the council couldn't even agree having villa women to play there, it's fair to say you can forget using that location in any way at all for football.
The idea of watching football in an athletics stadium doesn't exactly thrill me even as a temporary thing
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 20, 2023, 09:01:03 PM
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 09:02:49 PM
Development announcement imminent.
Intriguing. Why couldn't he say that yesterday when he spoke? Did he mis-speak?!
Post by: London Villan on December 20, 2023, 09:03:16 PM
Post by: TonyD on December 20, 2023, 09:04:55 PM
Development announcement imminent.Tonight or tomorrow?
Post by: Villan82 on December 20, 2023, 09:05:00 PM
Have they realised they have dropped a PR clanger?
Isn't this his third clanger? Badge, Holte corporate and now the new North Stand? has he been in the door six months?
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 20, 2023, 09:05:50 PM
Development announcement imminent.
Intriguing. Why couldn't he say that yesterday when he spoke? Did he mis-speak?!
Development announcement imminent.Tonight or tomorrow?
More likely in days rather than hours.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 09:09:54 PM
Post by: FatSam on December 20, 2023, 09:09:58 PM
all those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 20, 2023, 09:11:22 PM
If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 09:12:44 PM
Phew .If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 09:14:33 PM
So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
Post by: FrankyH on December 20, 2023, 09:15:19 PM
Phew .If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Shall I phone the Villa Chippy now with the good news or leave til Friday when I order my Special !
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 09:20:12 PM
Is that Ali Bhabbas ? Decent chippy that on matchdaysPhew .If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Shall I phone the Villa Chippy now with the good news or leave til Friday when I order my Special !
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 20, 2023, 09:23:46 PM
So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
There are two reasons why we hosted so many - location and we were never in them.
Post by: FrankyH on December 20, 2023, 09:25:04 PM
Is that Ali Bhabbas ? Decent chippy that on matchdaysPhew .If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Shall I phone the Villa Chippy now with the good news or leave til Friday when I order my Special !
I've had some cuisine from Ali Bhabbas I think (on Church Lane ?) but I'm not normally that side of the ground pre/after match.
Post by: TonyD on December 20, 2023, 09:29:38 PM
Fill in corners.If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 20, 2023, 09:32:23 PM
all those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fans
Yes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make sense
There are two reasons why we hosted so many - location and we were never in them.
Shush now. You're right of course, but we don't need to broadcast it.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 09:33:29 PM
Near Manor Park school not sure what the Road name isIs that Ali Bhabbas ? Decent chippy that on matchdaysPhew .If they are going to announce we are moving to a purpose built ground what better time to do it than when/if we are sat top of the league . Get the bad news out then ??
It's not a new ground.
Shall I phone the Villa Chippy now with the good news or leave til Friday when I order my Special !
I've had some cuisine from Ali Bhabbas I think (on Church Lane ?) but I'm not normally that side of the ground pre/after match.
Post by: FrankyH on December 20, 2023, 09:37:26 PM
Post by: DB on December 20, 2023, 09:41:33 PM
Well, considering what Heck has said this week, it's not going to be huge. His comment about 10k extra seats being too much too soon is only days old. That said , although I was excited/proud about the new developments and the subsequent disappointment of seeing the plans put on the back burner. Confirmation that we are staying at Villa Park will be my best Christmas present.
I think Chris said it, his comments prob meant too quick for whole area, Infrastructure etc. not the club or tickets
Post by: FrankyH on December 20, 2023, 09:44:20 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 20, 2023, 09:56:42 PM
Well, considering what Heck has said this week, it's not going to be huge. His comment about 10k extra seats being too much too soon is only days old. That said , although I was excited/proud about the new developments and the subsequent disappointment of seeing the plans put on the back burner. Confirmation that we are staying at Villa Park will be my best Christmas present.Hear hear.
Post by: UK Redsox on December 20, 2023, 10:07:39 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 10:08:47 PM
So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
It is absolutely nothing about geographical location anymore though.
They don’t give a shit about dragging fans all over the country any more.
Post by: andyh on December 20, 2023, 10:13:43 PM
https://x.com/HabZ360/status/1737481107229032733?s=20
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 10:16:13 PM
No, nor kick off times when you can't get a train home etc.So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
It is absolutely nothing about geographical location anymore though.
They don’t give a shit about dragging fans all over the country any more.
But back when we hosted them (we went to a few as a few hundred seats always went to Villa ST holders) geography was a factor e.g. Arsenal v Man U was perfect for B6 or West Ham v Everton
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 20, 2023, 10:20:14 PM
Can someone more capable than me please post the images from this link
https://x.com/HabZ360/status/1737481107229032733?s=20
(https://i.ibb.co/vdxp33D/IMG-1397.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vdxp33D)
(https://i.ibb.co/RjvMGFr/IMG-1395.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RjvMGFr)
(https://i.ibb.co/f8yDyNR/IMG-1393.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8yDyNR)
(https://i.ibb.co/f1rLXS7/IMG-1391.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f1rLXS7)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 10:23:44 PM
No, nor kick off times when you can't get a train home etc.So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
It is absolutely nothing about geographical location anymore though.
They don’t give a shit about dragging fans all over the country any more.
But back when we hosted them (we went to a few as a few hundred seats always went to Villa ST holders) geography was a factor e.g. Arsenal v Man U was perfect for B6 or West Ham v Everton
Yeah but you were talking specifically about location being part of it now - it isn't any more. It was, it is now not, and hasn't been for ages.
Post by: andyh on December 20, 2023, 10:56:39 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 10:59:16 PM
Semi finals are at Wembley now as it's all about maximising profits and fuck the fansNo, nor kick off times when you can't get a train home etc.So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
It is absolutely nothing about geographical location anymore though.
They don’t give a shit about dragging fans all over the country any more.
But back when we hosted them (we went to a few as a few hundred seats always went to Villa ST holders) geography was a factor e.g. Arsenal v Man U was perfect for B6 or West Ham v Everton
Yeah but you were talking specifically about location being part of it now - it isn't any more. It was, it is now not, and hasn't been for ages.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 11:00:46 PM
Semi finals are at Wembley now as it's all about maximising profits and fuck the fansNo, nor kick off times when you can't get a train home etc.So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
It is absolutely nothing about geographical location anymore though.
They don’t give a shit about dragging fans all over the country any more.
But back when we hosted them (we went to a few as a few hundred seats always went to Villa ST holders) geography was a factor e.g. Arsenal v Man U was perfect for B6 or West Ham v Everton
Yeah but you were talking specifically about location being part of it now - it isn't any more. It was, it is now not, and hasn't been for ages.
Yeah, I know, that's why I was disagreeing with you!
Post by: eamonn on December 20, 2023, 11:25:57 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 11:27:26 PM
Doesn't/Didn't the Villa Chippy have rodent issues? i.e they were seen scarpering OUT of the place because they turned their noses up at the scran.
Scarpering out of the place and in the direction of Villa Park because they're heard about what is happening on the pitch.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 20, 2023, 11:41:02 PM
Doesn't/Didn't the Villa Chippy have rodent issues? i.e they were seen scarpering OUT of the place because they turned their noses up at the scran.
Scarpering out of the place and in the direction of Villa Park because they're heard about what is happening on the pitch.
I heard it was because the scran is so much better at the Lower Grounds.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 20, 2023, 11:42:02 PM
Doesn't/Didn't the Villa Chippy have rodent issues? i.e they were seen scarpering OUT of the place because they turned their noses up at the scran.
Scarpering out of the place and in the direction of Villa Park because they're heard about what is happening on the pitch.
I heard it was because the scran is so much better at the Lower Grounds.
Rats absolutely love pick 'n mix.
Post by: VillaTim on December 20, 2023, 11:44:41 PM
I was talking about the past not where we are now though so you agreed with my point. Historically we've been a great venue . We now appear a good venue for concerts geographicallySemi finals are at Wembley now as it's all about maximising profits and fuck the fansNo, nor kick off times when you can't get a train home etc.So what it's not just about that , geographically we often make senseall those FA Cup SF's we have hosted too , its a special place for lots of other fansYes, but we would never host another one if they were to be taken away from Wembley, because so many other grounds are now bigger and better.
It is absolutely nothing about geographical location anymore though.
They don’t give a shit about dragging fans all over the country any more.
But back when we hosted them (we went to a few as a few hundred seats always went to Villa ST holders) geography was a factor e.g. Arsenal v Man U was perfect for B6 or West Ham v Everton
Yeah but you were talking specifically about location being part of it now - it isn't any more. It was, it is now not, and hasn't been for ages.
Yeah, I know, that's why I was disagreeing with you!
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 20, 2023, 11:47:45 PM
Doesn't/Didn't the Villa Chippy have rodent issues? i.e they were seen scarpering OUT of the place because they turned their noses up at the scran.
Scarpering out of the place and in the direction of Villa Park because they're heard about what is happening on the pitch.
I heard it was because the scran is so much better at the Lower Grounds.
Rats absolutely love pick 'n mix.
Well, they do love street food.
Post by: Dave P on December 21, 2023, 06:30:31 AM
Development announcement imminent.Tonight or tomorrow?
It’ll be 3pm on Monday. The Heck’s Speech.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 21, 2023, 06:44:00 AM
Development announcement imminent.Is this because of the feedback?
Post by: N'ZMAV on December 21, 2023, 06:48:05 AM
Post by: The Edge on December 21, 2023, 08:19:35 AM
Help me out here. I can't work out what's going on and I haven't got time to scroll back. Is the club going to make an announcement about the redevelopment or not? How would anyone know unless they have really good inside information?Development announcement imminent.Tonight or tomorrow?
It’ll be 3pm on Monday. The Heck’s Speech.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 21, 2023, 08:29:05 AM
Edit - and we ain't moving to a new stadium.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 21, 2023, 08:56:22 AM
Our last posted matchday revenue was £16m. I expect with two seasons of increases, European football, and Lower Grounds etc, this could now be up to £30m+. But this still pales massively compared to clubs like Spurs now pulling in over £100m. It will be interesting to see Everton's improvements from their new stadium, as they are closer to where we have been and also not a London-based club.
Other points that occur to me and make me think we are just being kept in the dark while they look at all options;
If they are not going ahead because they don't want to impact the playing side right now, it would be a delay, not a re-think.
If they really don't think Villa, in our catchment area with top-6 football and europe, can take advantage of an extra 8k seats, then there's a huge issue.
If they are not going ahead because it would take money from other areas, well what areas are these? We don't need £100m spent on the training ground or academy. I don't think we can spend £100m on transfers with FFP. And if we only have £100-150m available overall, where has the appetite for investment gone? Do they really want us to think that's all they can muster and it was all talk?
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 21, 2023, 09:31:37 AM
Development announcement imminent.Tonight or tomorrow?
It’ll be 3pm on Monday. The Heck’s Speech.
Recorded weeks ago.
Post by: Villan82 on December 21, 2023, 09:37:41 AM
I am still perplexed at the Heck communication faux pas (how many now?). If I had staff that were this loose with getting the message across, especially given that clear comms has been a hallmark under NSWE, I would be left quite unimpressed.
Left wondering what will be announced as the new stand looed mint. I really hope it isn't just a tart up of the existing stand as it really ruins the look of the stadium and is shocking facilities wise.
Post by: The Edge on December 21, 2023, 09:46:04 AM
I am so relieved that we are staying put.I would not be surprised if they announced the bottom section was remaining as its just a solid bank of earth and either a rebuild or just a widening of the upper tier with a new roof. The lower North could be kept open in either scenario.
I am still perplexed at the Heck communication faux pas (how many now?). If I had staff that were this loose with getting the message across, especially given that clear comms has been a hallmark under NSWE, I would be left quite unimpressed.
Left wondering what will be announced as the new stand looed mint. I really hope it isn't just a tart up of the existing stand as it really ruins the look of the stadium and is shocking facilities wise.
Post by: The Edge on December 21, 2023, 09:47:02 AM
In summary, Chris Heck said the demolition of the North Stand won't happen next summer, everyone's been speculating ever since and Dave has said there's an announcement incoming, presumably to update on what the plan will be.Cheers Chris
Edit - and we ain't moving to a new stadium.
Post by: Risso on December 21, 2023, 10:40:54 AM
If they are not going ahead because it would take money from other areas, well what areas are these? We don't need £100m spent on the training ground or academy. I don't think we can spend £100m on transfers with FFP. And if we only have £100-150m available overall, where has the appetite for investment gone? Do they really want us to think that's all they can muster and it was all talk?
Was thinking the same. I really hope not when everything has been going so well, but this decision together with the news about the outside investment could lead to that conclusion.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 21, 2023, 10:48:29 AM
I'm guessing the imminent announcement will just be some more meat on the bone Heck threw out about the reasons for the delay and the other bits of work being done rather than any other development plans.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 21, 2023, 11:02:26 AM
If they are not going ahead because it would take money from other areas, well what areas are these? We don't need £100m spent on the training ground or academy. I don't think we can spend £100m on transfers with FFP. And if we only have £100-150m available overall, where has the appetite for investment gone? Do they really want us to think that's all they can muster and it was all talk?
Was thinking the same. I really hope not when everything has been going so well, but this decision together with the news about the outside investment could lead to that conclusion.
On the flip side, it is difficult to believe a word that Heck says.
Some of the "excuses" he has given for some of his actions in his first six months have been downright insulting.
You 'might' be able to excuse the first fuck up because he had only been here for three minutes, (I don't personally), but 6 months later & the communication has been just as shit.
I have read that he needs to get his feet under the table, but what the fuck has he been doing with his feet for the past 6 months & where the fuck is the table?
Post by: London Villan on December 21, 2023, 11:08:13 AM
Just say you don't like it and binned it - just don't lie.
Post by: luke95 on December 21, 2023, 11:10:26 AM
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2023/december/21/av-150--countdown-to-anniversary-season-begins-/
Post by: London Villan on December 21, 2023, 11:12:45 AM
Post by: Stinkin_Thinkin on December 21, 2023, 11:19:58 AM
Post by: Risso on December 21, 2023, 11:21:35 AM
My guess is the announcment is they'll upgrade the lower holte to standing terrace after the foo fighters to pack a few more in. This will help the credibility of "terrace view" people will be able to sneak off for their beluga caviar without causing the inconveniance of whole row to stand up to let them pass.
That won't be it. Even with the standing/sitting hybrid rail seats, it's one for one. You can't put more in than were there originally.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 21, 2023, 11:38:50 AM
Leopards and spots, once a bullshitter.
If they are not going ahead because it would take money from other areas, well what areas are these? We don't need £100m spent on the training ground or academy. I don't think we can spend £100m on transfers with FFP. And if we only have £100-150m available overall, where has the appetite for investment gone? Do they really want us to think that's all they can muster and it was all talk?
Was thinking the same. I really hope not when everything has been going so well, but this decision together with the news about the outside investment could lead to that conclusion.
On the flip side, it is difficult to believe a word that Heck says.
Some of the "excuses" he has given for some of his actions in his first six months have been downright insulting.
You 'might' be able to excuse the first fuck up because he had only been here for three minutes, (I don't personally), but 6 months later & the communication has been just as shit.
I have read that he needs to get his feet under the table, but what the fuck has he been doing with his feet for the past 6 months & where the fuck is the table?
Post by: Dogtanian on December 21, 2023, 01:40:13 PM
They partner with "growth oriented businesses" - I don't think a few upgraded gyms in the training ground really cuts it as an attractive investment.
They provide "long-term capital to high-potential companies" - long-term says more stadium than just enhancing facilities, and high potential means the investment is going to directly enable growth.
Comcast is the sole investor in Atairos. Comcast Spectacor currently own several arenas, stadiums, and convention centres in the US, and manage dozens more.
I have decided. New stadium is on the agenda, even if that's top-secret for now. 8)
Post by: Rodders on December 21, 2023, 02:10:31 PM
On a much, much, much smaller scale I was a trustee and director and interim manager of our local town hall when it was undergoing modernisation/development. Had I appeared at a board meeting to say that I'd taken an executive decision such as this and appeared on official SM channels to disseminate it I'd have been fired and sued.
There's no reason to believe that the combined experience and acumen of these incredibly successful businessmen wouldn't be applied to the enormous investment they have already made in their asset (the club). Any hiatus on the NS development plans would hopefully in practice mean that something even better is in the pipeline*
*Hopefully not moving the stadium
Post by: Simon Page on December 21, 2023, 02:30:50 PM
Hopefully better alternatives have been put forward to the chiefs, even if publicly the decision making looks as sane and stable as an inflatable outside a car showroom.
Post by: Ads on December 21, 2023, 04:02:10 PM
Post by: nick harper on December 21, 2023, 04:20:43 PM
New plans for Witton Station in.
https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/plans-to-upgrade-witton-railway-station-ahead-of-euro-2028-tournament-revealed/
Post by: Risso on December 21, 2023, 04:21:49 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 21, 2023, 04:22:40 PM
Post by: AV82EC on December 21, 2023, 04:23:32 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 21, 2023, 04:24:16 PM
Post by: Ads on December 21, 2023, 04:24:59 PM
Post by: DB on December 21, 2023, 04:26:56 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 04:27:32 PM
New plans for Witton Station in.ramps , a tunnel, some canopies and widening the platform. Hardly building Grand Central are they, why has this taken so long
Post by: AV82EC on December 21, 2023, 04:29:54 PM
New plans for Witton Station in.ramps , a tunnel, some canopies and widening the platform. Hardly building Grand Central are they, why has this taken so long
It’s the way public planning and investment policy works. There are plenty of other projects WMCA could be investing in for rail improvements, this will be one of hundreds looking for funding.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 21, 2023, 04:31:35 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 04:36:17 PM
yeah i'm just surprised how minimal the scheme is , whats the budget looks about a £2m job maxNew plans for Witton Station in.ramps , a tunnel, some canopies and widening the platform. Hardly building Grand Central are they, why has this taken so long
It’s the way public planning and investment policy works. There are plenty of other projects WMCA could be investing in for rail improvements, this will be one of hundreds looking for funding.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 21, 2023, 04:42:06 PM
I like how happy the chap bybthe telegraph pole looks.
He looks like he's wearing sandals or flip flops ? Who the hell goes to a football match in such footwear !
Post by: IFWaters on December 21, 2023, 04:42:42 PM
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 21, 2023, 04:57:17 PM
It doesn't make sense. Where would you have a foot-only tunnel underneath the line with a side road on the right hand side?
Its looking up Station Road from VP to what is at present a dead end. The road on the right is the existing Village Road. I would assume the thinking is that you can then exit/access both new platforms at either end so reducing queues.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 21, 2023, 05:10:31 PM
It doesn't make sense. Where would you have a foot-only tunnel underneath the line with a side road on the right hand side?
Its looking up Station Road from VP to what is at present a dead end. The road on the right is the existing Village Road. I would assume the thinking is that you can then exit/access both new platforms at either end so reducing queues.
Isn't there houses where those trees are?
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 21, 2023, 05:29:18 PM
It doesn't make sense. Where would you have a foot-only tunnel underneath the line with a side road on the right hand side?
Its looking up Station Road from VP to what is at present a dead end. The road on the right is the existing Village Road. I would assume the thinking is that you can then exit/access both new platforms at either end so reducing queues.
Isn't there houses where those trees are?
No, looking at google maps street view it shouldn't encroach on any existing properties.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 21, 2023, 05:45:43 PM
Post by: Drummond on December 21, 2023, 05:47:47 PM
Post by: jon collett on December 21, 2023, 05:56:11 PM
I couldn't picture where those trees and what looks like a school would be.
It’s the other end of the road you used to sell the fanzines on - station road. I park at yew tree school when I take my dad for accessible parking.
The trees are little green area opposite the school sometimes used for parking police vehicles.
It’s a bit of a distance from the present entrance for Witton station.
Ominously Andy Street says this is only the feasibility study and they still need to make the business case.
I wonder if Villa’s announcement on the North Stand affects that?
Post by: London Villan on December 21, 2023, 06:28:26 PM
Post by: eamonn on December 21, 2023, 06:31:17 PM
I like how happy the chap bybthe telegraph pole looks.
He looks like he's wearing sandals or flip flops ? Who the hell goes to a football match in such footwear !
Jack Grealish
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 06:45:25 PM
That little lot will be £15m-£20m.How
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on December 21, 2023, 06:48:53 PM
Post by: Bad English on December 21, 2023, 06:50:36 PM
Rail infrastructure projects are horrendously expensive. I'd say it was a lot more than that.yeah i'm just surprised how minimal the scheme is , whats the budget looks about a £2m job maxNew plans for Witton Station in.ramps , a tunnel, some canopies and widening the platform. Hardly building Grand Central are they, why has this taken so long
It’s the way public planning and investment policy works. There are plenty of other projects WMCA could be investing in for rail improvements, this will be one of hundreds looking for funding.
Post by: Bad English on December 21, 2023, 06:51:08 PM
That little lot will be £15m-£20m.More like it.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 21, 2023, 06:52:41 PM
How much was the Perry Barr station refurb? And what did it consist of?
£30m. Don't know what it consisted of, we haven't played up there for 127 years.
Post by: The Edge on December 21, 2023, 06:53:19 PM
The tunnel alone will cost millions. They are excavating beneath a live railway line which runs about 10/12 trains per hour at peak times.That little lot will be £15m-£20m.How
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 07:02:20 PM
crazy money just to create a void essentiallyThe tunnel alone will cost millions. They are excavating beneath a live railway line which runs about 10/12 trains per hour at peak times.That little lot will be £15m-£20m.How
Post by: Villan82 on December 21, 2023, 07:12:17 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 21, 2023, 07:32:38 PM
The choreography is odd. We announce we are pausing the redevelopment and the station upgrade takes a big step forward. Reading the article it talks about future proofing should 'Aston Villa revisit their stadium expansion plans'.I agree. It's been handled very clumsily. Just like the new badge. The owners must see something in him or you'd expect him to be out on his arse pretty soon.
Post by: London Villan on December 21, 2023, 07:37:54 PM
Post by: AV82EC on December 21, 2023, 07:37:59 PM
crazy money just to create a void essentiallyThe tunnel alone will cost millions. They are excavating beneath a live railway line which runs about 10/12 trains per hour at peak times.That little lot will be £15m-£20m.How
Platform widening and lengthening
The pedestrian tunnel, major civils as the edge said
New lifts (Equality Act reqt)
A whole heap of civils around ramps, queuing systems, car parks etc
Revamp the ticket office and station buildings
Platform roofing
I’m sure someone who works in the rail industry could give you something more comprehensive but that’s off the top of my head. There’s a pretty standard list of stuff Network Rail have to include as part of a major upgrade like this.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 21, 2023, 07:38:27 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 21, 2023, 07:41:20 PM
Well, if demand isn’t there, and the season ticket waiting list is a mirage, I’ll look forward to my season tickets for me and the two babbies, all sitting together, in the near future. Shouldn’t take them long to get to us at number thirty-five thousand and something on the non-existent list.
I think it's being misinterpreted in that sense.
I think the concerns they have are:
- playing Champions League game with a bit of a fence and a building site behind one end of the ground, the lower portion of which certainly adds to atmosphere, at a time we've won 15 home league games in a row
- the escalating cost of steel right now.
- the balancing of a large capital investment versus investment in the playing squad, given where we are now in on-pitch terms.
Post by: London Villan on December 21, 2023, 08:36:15 PM
Well, if demand isn’t there, and the season ticket waiting list is a mirage, I’ll look forward to my season tickets for me and the two babbies, all sitting together, in the near future. Shouldn’t take them long to get to us at number thirty-five thousand and something on the non-existent list.
My lad moved 2000 spaces up the list this summer. He is in the 16000s.
Post by: olaftab on December 21, 2023, 08:45:37 PM
I see they considered a fleet of shuttle buses but decided against it. Another kick in the balls for Aziz coaches of Sparkbrook.And Bharat Coaches of Soho Road are in crises.
Post by: IFWaters on December 21, 2023, 08:48:09 PM
What the heck
What the heck
What the heck is going on ?
What the heck is going on ?
Post by: olaftab on December 21, 2023, 08:53:24 PM
I like how happy the chap bybthe telegraph pole looks.He's just returned from Madrid where we thrashed Atletico 3-0 in the away leg of 26/27 Champions League semi final.
Post by: olaftab on December 21, 2023, 08:58:25 PM
It doesn't make sense. Where would you have a foot-only tunnel underneath the line with a side road on the right hand side?Currently Station Road runs into nothing so a tunnel will make the station more accessible and that's Village Road on the right?
Edit:Apologies just noted ALITA had covered this.
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 09:09:39 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 21, 2023, 09:16:18 PM
It would've been incredibly risky given the serious threat of relegation but ultimately we'd shown for 18 months 42k were turning up every two weeks and that has continued since fans have returned.
Clearly there are other issues in play and as said it's not enough for 42k scaling up to 52k paying a minimum of 40 quid or season ticket prices to get in, there has to be a more premium fan in aswell to justify the numbers and that's having some teething issues to put it mildly this season!
We're on the up but we're not London so really not sure when the North gets rebuilt if that's the sole criteria that has forced Heck to make the decision to shelve the plans.
I love the view from the North if you're in the front 7-8 rows but it's the sort of stand you could get away with if we we went back to pulling in 33/34k. Full houses every week and you see the extreme limitations. I last sat up there for Palace game this season, arrived at 2.40pm and the queue was already past the incline up the steps so you're always going to miss kick off if you turn up pretty late. Not helped by not being able to enter the other side due to reconfiguration of parking spaces and making the coaches park bigger.
In short term they need to sort that out as too many people are missing kick off even when turning up in reasonable amount of time.
Any decent alternative sites then? When discussed a few years back that large site past Smithfields was popular but seems all of the plot has been snapped up.
Around the Jewellery Quarter would be cool with decent transport links and still close enough to Aston to feel "home" but just seems to be flats going up.
NEC remains the nuclear option but I assume would be considered aswell.
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 09:22:10 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 21, 2023, 09:25:50 PM
The big drawback is the transition and having to ground share.
Post by: olaftab on December 21, 2023, 09:30:38 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 21, 2023, 09:38:08 PM
Post by: KevinGage on December 21, 2023, 09:38:24 PM
There was a battle with residents when the Doug Ellis was built in 1993/94, owing to the height of that structure and lack of sun etc. It would still be an issue today, but you wouldn't have to go a whole pile higher to build a more modern stand with that sort of small wanky corporate middle tier which is all the rage now for new builds.
It might only give us an extra 5000 or so initially in real terms. But might be more attractive for business types networking and entertaining. Rather than being planted behind a goal.
Might also free up the better seats in the Trinity for people who actually want to watch the game.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 21, 2023, 09:52:07 PM
Wonder if Heck looks at the proposed North Stand development and the limitations of corporates there has put the kybosh on it.I don’t see why you would postpone the total project, they could easily reconfigure the internal aspects if they wanted to increase the level of corporate activity.
There was a battle with residents when the Doug Ellis was built in 1993/94, owing to the height of that structure and lack of sun etc. It would still be an issue today, but you wouldn't have to go a whole pile higher to build a more modern stand with that sort of small wanky corporate middle tier which is all the rage now for new builds.
It might only give us an extra 5000 or so initially in real terms. But might be more attractive for business types networking and entertaining. Rather than being planted behind a goal.
Might also free up the better seats in the Trinity for people who actually want to watch the game.
Post by: amfy on December 21, 2023, 10:48:57 PM
Captain hindsight here but they really should've done the attempted rebuild during lockdown.
It would've been incredibly risky given the serious threat of relegation but ultimately we'd shown for 18 months 42k were turning up every two weeks and that has continued since fans have returned.
Clearly there are other issues in play and as said it's not enough for 42k scaling up to 52k paying a minimum of 40 quid or season ticket prices to get in, there has to be a more premium fan in aswell to justify the numbers and that's having some teething issues to put it mildly this season!
We're on the up but we're not London so really not sure when the North gets rebuilt if that's the sole criteria that has forced Heck to make the decision to shelve the plans.
I love the view from the North if you're in the front 7-8 rows but it's the sort of stand you could get away with if we we went back to pulling in 33/34k. Full houses every week and you see the extreme limitations. I last sat up there for Palace game this season, arrived at 2.40pm and the queue was already past the incline up the steps so you're always going to miss kick off if you turn up pretty late. Not helped by not being able to enter the other side due to reconfiguration of parking spaces and making the coaches park bigger.
In short term they need to sort that out as too many people are missing kick off even when turning up in reasonable amount of time.
Any decent alternative sites then? When discussed a few years back that large site past Smithfields was popular but seems all of the plot has been snapped up.
Around the Jewellery Quarter would be cool with decent transport links and still close enough to Aston to feel "home" but just seems to be flats going up.
NEC remains the nuclear option but I assume would be considered aswell.
I was mooching around a satellite view of our surrounding area, and looking at the current footprint of Villa Park, in the immediate vicinity 2 things leap out at me -
Powerleague
Our own Academy.
I wouldn’t have thought either of these were big enough if I hadn’t looked at the satellite view, but it actually does look like they are.
So given how easy that seems - there must be something simple I’m missing?
Post by: Louzie0 on December 21, 2023, 10:57:47 PM
Merry Christmas 🎄👍
Post by: WassallVillain on December 21, 2023, 11:05:27 PM
Any decent alternative sites then? When discussed a few years back that large site past Smithfields was popular but seems all of the plot has been snapped up.
Around the Jewellery Quarter would be cool with decent transport links and still close enough to Aston to feel "home" but just seems to be flats going up.
NEC remains the nuclear option but I assume would be considered aswell.
Jag site at castle brom all but mothballed. Massive site great big roads all around it close to mway A rail link that could have a station built. Just a thought. Chuck n a bit of Tata money as further investors with the Comcast gang and you’d have nearly enough cash to take on the state owned cabal. Also not too far from current location.
Having said all that. I can’t imagine watching from anywhere but Villa Park. Nor do I really want to.
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 21, 2023, 11:31:11 PM
Any decent alternative sites then? When discussed a few years back that large site past Smithfields was popular but seems all of the plot has been snapped up.
Around the Jewellery Quarter would be cool with decent transport links and still close enough to Aston to feel "home" but just seems to be flats going up.
NEC remains the nuclear option but I assume would be considered aswell.
Jag site at castle brom all but mothballed. Massive site great big roads all around it close to mway A rail link that could have a station built. Just a thought. Chuck n a bit of Tata money as further investors with the Comcast gang and you’d have nearly enough cash to take on the state owned cabal. Also not too far from current location.
Having said all that. I can’t imagine watching from anywhere but Villa Park. Nor do I really want to.
If people think the bottleneck around VP from 5pm on a Saturday or 10pm on a weeknight is horrendous then wait until they experience it around the Tyburn Island.
Regularly gridlocked coming back from Town on A38 pretty much every weekday at rush hour. Would desperately need to tunnel it or make a flyover but that would probably take a decade to plan and construct with the state the council is in.
All the train stations are 2-3 miles walk aswell compared to VP which has four in reasonably close proximity. Even the annual mythical station pledge at Castle Brom (whenever the local elections are on the horizon) won't be much use as plenty of freight used on that line and national services so you'd get nowhere near service you get on CC Line.
Only way it could work is using the Fort as a sort of park and ride as they did during Commonwealth games.
Really only viable present one is the Alex but even that has a boxed in feel tucked behind the A34 so I'm not really sure what sort of capacity we could get up to if we had to squat there for 18 months, dosen't have a roof either so the novelty would quickly wear off after a few games.
Post by: wince on December 22, 2023, 07:13:34 AM
Post by: VillaTim on December 22, 2023, 07:35:47 AM
Post by: IFWaters on December 22, 2023, 07:54:00 AM
Post by: The Edge on December 22, 2023, 08:24:36 AM
If transport links is the priority then the NEC site wins hands down. Proximity to motorways M42 M6 M5 M40 M69 M1 , railways inc HS2 , airport , plus you have all the other stuff that's there - hotels , resorts world, arena, exhibition centre so travelling fans can make a weekend of a trip. If we were ever to move that would be the place to go.We are not leaving Aston. But if that day ever comes the the NEC would be a massive no no purely on it's location. It's in Solihull for starters bang next to Chelmsely Wood which is nose territory. I couldn't think of anything worse than moving VP there. All our history down the pan in one fell swoop. Horrendous idea.
Post by: VillaTim on December 22, 2023, 08:28:00 AM
Post by: LukeJames on December 22, 2023, 08:29:52 AM
Post by: luke95 on December 22, 2023, 08:39:56 AM
The footprint of a shiny new 60k ground would probably be twice if not 3 times bigger than villa park .Captain hindsight here but they really should've done the attempted rebuild during lockdown.
It would've been incredibly risky given the serious threat of relegation but ultimately we'd shown for 18 months 42k were turning up every two weeks and that has continued since fans have returned.
Clearly there are other issues in play and as said it's not enough for 42k scaling up to 52k paying a minimum of 40 quid or season ticket prices to get in, there has to be a more premium fan in aswell to justify the numbers and that's having some teething issues to put it mildly this season!
We're on the up but we're not London so really not sure when the North gets rebuilt if that's the sole criteria that has forced Heck to make the decision to shelve the plans.
I love the view from the North if you're in the front 7-8 rows but it's the sort of stand you could get away with if we we went back to pulling in 33/34k. Full houses every week and you see the extreme limitations. I last sat up there for Palace game this season, arrived at 2.40pm and the queue was already past the incline up the steps so you're always going to miss kick off if you turn up pretty late. Not helped by not being able to enter the other side due to reconfiguration of parking spaces and making the coaches park bigger.
In short term they need to sort that out as too many people are missing kick off even when turning up in reasonable amount of time.
Any decent alternative sites then? When discussed a few years back that large site past Smithfields was popular but seems all of the plot has been snapped up.
Around the Jewellery Quarter would be cool with decent transport links and still close enough to Aston to feel "home" but just seems to be flats going up.
NEC remains the nuclear option but I assume would be considered aswell.
I was mooching around a satellite view of our surrounding area, and looking at the current footprint of Villa Park, in the immediate vicinity 2 things leap out at me -
Powerleague
Our own Academy.
I wouldn’t have thought either of these were big enough if I hadn’t looked at the satellite view, but it actually does look like they are.
So given how easy that seems - there must be something simple I’m missing?
Post by: Dogtanian on December 22, 2023, 08:57:50 AM
The footprint of a shiny new 60k ground would probably be twice if not 3 times bigger than villa park .
It's not, actually. We have more than enough land to build a ground as big as Spurs, just not in the right shape. We would need to acquire a bit of additional to make it the right shape, but it's more than doable at that location.
Post by: Ads on December 22, 2023, 09:02:02 AM
Post by: PeterWithe on December 22, 2023, 09:04:18 AM
Post by: AV82EC on December 22, 2023, 09:07:08 AM
Who can issue CPOs?
Councils. In our case it would be BCC, I don’t think WMCA would get involved in this.
Post by: London Villan on December 22, 2023, 09:51:40 AM
60 houses - £12m-£15m In terms of football turnover not a lot. That said Xia would have flogged them all during his fire sale.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 22, 2023, 10:31:04 AM
We've finally turned Aston into a fortress and mastered playing there, imagine moving now.This.
And it won't happen anyway.
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 22, 2023, 11:23:05 AM
If transport links is the priority then the NEC site wins hands down. Proximity to motorways M42 M6 M5 M40 M69 M1 , railways inc HS2 , airport , plus you have all the other stuff that's there - hotels , resorts world, arena, exhibition centre so travelling fans can make a weekend of a trip. If we were ever to move that would be the place to go.
Just chuckling at Paulie reading all that...."BUT I USE THE LINE INTO SNOW HILL!!" (wink).
Where they're building the new interchange station I assume they'll be available land as there's a new housing development and amenities also being created so might aswell slap in a new entertainment venue that can create more jobs. And you're only 30 minutes away from London so new catchment area....well a prison on the Western outskirts of London.
Do we want to be completely soulless matchday venue like West Ham are...that's the hard sell from this ownership.
Post by: amfy on December 22, 2023, 11:33:19 AM
The footprint of a shiny new 60k ground would probably be twice if not 3 times bigger than villa park .
It's not, actually. We have more than enough land to build a ground as big as Spurs, just not in the right shape. We would need to acquire a bit of additional to make it the right shape, but it's more than doable at that location.
Yep - there’s industrial land adjacent to the academy site that might be quite straightforward to CPO - or just buy!
Post by: Chris Harte on December 22, 2023, 11:41:29 AM
This is pure speculation on my part, but the club announced new investment last week. Perhaps they've decided on an alternative, more costly, way of doing things, for instance, doing the initial groundwork (services, pipework, etc) first, followed by NS demolition and rebuild that would allow completion/partial-operability in under two years.When things are clarified, I still reckon this is what is going on.
Perhaps there's been a re-design to adjust the amount of corporate in that stand.
And one other thought. was Heck behind the Terrace View and Lower Grounds, or was that the previous CEO? Either way, I suspect if Heck is true to his proclamation that "I love history" (from the interview), both TV and LG will be merely temporary features that'll be gone when the new NS is operational.
Post by: manic-road on December 22, 2023, 11:48:16 AM
Post by: amfy on December 22, 2023, 12:01:37 PM
We are not moving.
I don’t want to move, I’m just very desperate not to leave Aston if we do!
Post by: Dogtanian on December 22, 2023, 12:05:47 PM
Post by: amfy on December 22, 2023, 12:07:10 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 22, 2023, 12:28:19 PM
If transport links is the priority then the NEC site wins hands down. Proximity to motorways M42 M6 M5 M40 M69 M1 , railways inc HS2 , airport , plus you have all the other stuff that's there - hotels , resorts world, arena, exhibition centre so travelling fans can make a weekend of a trip. If we were ever to move that would be the place to go.
And where anywhere near the NEC is there available land that only we can buy and which would be within walking distance of the station and all these magical places that apparently football supporters want to go to, and which would allow the NEC (where getting away from anything even vaguely open to the public is horrendous) to improve its links to the motorways?
Post by: Bad English on December 22, 2023, 12:34:39 PM
Post by: TonyD on December 22, 2023, 12:41:07 PM
Impossible to imagine anything more soulless.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 22, 2023, 12:57:20 PM
Forget all the transport links (which aren't quite as good as you might thing), the lack of land, all of that stuff - I struggle to think of anything which would kill the spirit of this club more thoroughly than playing somewhere out there.
Post by: paul_e on December 22, 2023, 02:25:09 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 22, 2023, 03:04:58 PM
The NEC doesn't have a single thing going for it.
Forget all the transport links (which aren't quite as good as you might thing), the lack of land, all of that stuff - I struggle to think of anything which would kill the spirit of this club more thoroughly than playing somewhere out there.
Yeah, it's too far away. Would be OK for Blues as a fair bit of their support comes from Solihull way.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 22, 2023, 03:18:01 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 22, 2023, 03:19:32 PM
If transport links is the priority then the NEC site wins hands down. Proximity to motorways M42 M6 M5 M40 M69 M1 , railways inc HS2 , airport , plus you have all the other stuff that's there - hotels , resorts world, arena, exhibition centre so travelling fans can make a weekend of a trip. If we were ever to move that would be the place to go.
Just chuckling at Paulie reading all that...."BUT I USE THE LINE INTO SNOW HILL!!" (wink).
Where they're building the new interchange station I assume they'll be available land as there's a new housing development and amenities also being created so might aswell slap in a new entertainment venue that can create more jobs. And you're only 30 minutes away from London so new catchment area....well a prison on the Western outskirts of London.
Do we want to be completely soulless matchday venue like West Ham are...that's the hard sell from this ownership.
Let's be honest, Americans and the like aren't going to build a new stadium solely with football in mind. Parks and race tracks aside, Villa Park is currently the biggest open air stadium venue for miles around between London and Manchester going South to North and the Principality Stadium to the west (nothing bigger east either).
I would guess that there would be huge opportunity to attract major concerts and events (though VP already does to be fair) and that would be on the minds of the likes of Chris Heck.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 22, 2023, 03:24:08 PM
If transport links is the priority then the NEC site wins hands down. Proximity to motorways M42 M6 M5 M40 M69 M1 , railways inc HS2 , airport , plus you have all the other stuff that's there - hotels , resorts world, arena, exhibition centre so travelling fans can make a weekend of a trip. If we were ever to move that would be the place to go.
Just chuckling at Paulie reading all that...."BUT I USE THE LINE INTO SNOW HILL!!" (wink).
Where they're building the new interchange station I assume they'll be available land as there's a new housing development and amenities also being created so might aswell slap in a new entertainment venue that can create more jobs. And you're only 30 minutes away from London so new catchment area....well a prison on the Western outskirts of London.
Do we want to be completely soulless matchday venue like West Ham are...that's the hard sell from this ownership.
Let's be honest, Americans and the like aren't going to build a new stadium solely with football in mind. Parks and race tracks aside, Villa Park is currently the biggest open air stadium venue for miles around between London and Manchester going South to North and the Principality Stadium to the west (nothing bigger east either).
I would guess that there would be huge opportunity to attract major concerts and events (though VP already does to be fair) and that would be on the minds of the likes of Chris Heck.
...and Atairos who's owner manages stadiums, arenas, and conference centres across the US.
Post by: Somniloquism on December 22, 2023, 03:33:47 PM
The tunnel alone will cost millions. They are excavating beneath a live railway line which runs about 10/12 trains per hour at peak times.That little lot will be £15m-£20m.How
They replaced embankment with a tunnel / bridge just outside of Lichfield for the Southern Bypass. I'm not sure if they closed the line early or kept it going but that would be a decent costing comparison.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 22, 2023, 03:46:39 PM
As I've said before if we had to move the gas towers at nechells would be the best. Close enough to still be counted as Aston, just about walkable from the city centre, right by the ringroad and expressway and if you include everything between rupert street and the canal it's pretty much a square site which gives loads of option for how we fit things in. In terms of footprint it'd be about half again on top of the current site. It's also not so penned in by residential areas so you reduce the risk of us being bad neighbours.
It's in a truly desolate area, though, and I don't think it would be much better in terms of location than where we are now. Probably worse, in fact.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 22, 2023, 03:48:31 PM
I'm still not sure that it would be necessary though. If the North Stand is redeveloped as planned and the capacity goes up.to 52,000, would we realistically need anything bigger for the immediate future? There are plenty of bits and pieces that could be done around VP to improve it and then the potential of developing the Witton Road stand could be looked in to should the need arise over the following years.
It would have to be something spectacular in the city centre for me if we were to ever consider leaving Villa Park. Definite no to the NEC or anywhere further out. I think if we do get in the Champions League next season, then it would make sense to not start work on the North Stand, but then after that first season we should maybe just bite the bullet in summer 2025.
Post by: Dogtanian on December 22, 2023, 04:02:16 PM
I've been mulling it over since the talk of redeveloping the North Stand got momentum again a couple of years ago. For me, if plans were revealed of a new stadium in the city centre (somewhere like the Smithfields site previously mentioned) that was something like the new Spurs ground then it would be something to be considered to be honest. If it was felt that it was something that would help take the club to the level at the very top of English football that it just hasn't been able to maintain during my time following the club and probably for over a century now really, then it might be something we might have to accept.
I'm still not sure that it would be necessary though. If the North Stand is redeveloped as planned and the capacity goes up.to 52,000, would we realistically need anything bigger for the immediate future? There are plenty of bits and pieces that could be done around VP to improve it and then the potential of developing the Witton Road stand could be looked in to should the need arise over the following years.
It would have to be something spectacular in the city centre for me if we were to ever consider leaving Villa Park. Definite no to the NEC or anywhere further out. I think if we do get in the Champions League next season, then it would make sense to not start work on the North Stand, but then after that first season we should maybe just bite the bullet in summer 2025.
It's not about pure number of seats anymore, it's about being able to offer premium matchday offerings to customers willing to may more for them. All of that takes space. The North on its own will allow us to do some more of that, but we would still be stuck in the other three stands. A full rebuild will allow the whole place to be geared towards doing that without alienating traditional match goers as they have been doing so far with the Holte End.
They want to do loads more things like the Lower Grounds, but are going to struggle within the existing stands. Particularly in the Holte and Doug.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 22, 2023, 04:52:34 PM
I've been mulling it over since the talk of redeveloping the North Stand got momentum again a couple of years ago. For me, if plans were revealed of a new stadium in the city centre (somewhere like the Smithfields site previously mentioned) that was something like the new Spurs ground then it would be something to be considered to be honest. If it was felt that it was something that would help take the club to the level at the very top of English football that it just hasn't been able to maintain during my time following the club and probably for over a century now really, then it might be something we might have to accept.
I'm still not sure that it would be necessary though. If the North Stand is redeveloped as planned and the capacity goes up.to 52,000, would we realistically need anything bigger for the immediate future? There are plenty of bits and pieces that could be done around VP to improve it and then the potential of developing the Witton Road stand could be looked in to should the need arise over the following years.
It would have to be something spectacular in the city centre for me if we were to ever consider leaving Villa Park. Definite no to the NEC or anywhere further out. I think if we do get in the Champions League next season, then it would make sense to not start work on the North Stand, but then after that first season we should maybe just bite the bullet in summer 2025.
It's not about pure number of seats anymore, it's about being able to offer premium matchday offerings to customers willing to may more for them. All of that takes space. The North on its own will allow us to do some more of that, but we would still be stuck in the other three stands. A full rebuild will allow the whole place to be geared towards doing that without alienating traditional match goers as they have been doing so far with the Holte End.
They want to do loads more things like the Lower Grounds, but are going to struggle within the existing stands. Particularly in the Holte and Doug.
How much of that are we likely to really need though? Of course a new stadium would allow for all that to be built in and would probably allow for things like large safe standing areas to be incorporated as well.
Post by: paul_e on December 22, 2023, 04:56:59 PM
As I've said before if we had to move the gas towers at nechells would be the best. Close enough to still be counted as Aston, just about walkable from the city centre, right by the ringroad and expressway and if you include everything between rupert street and the canal it's pretty much a square site which gives loads of option for how we fit things in. In terms of footprint it'd be about half again on top of the current site. It's also not so penned in by residential areas so you reduce the risk of us being bad neighbours.
It's in a truly desolate area, though, and I don't think it would be much better in terms of location than where we are now. Probably worse, in fact.
I know it has problems, and I'd prefer us to redevelop on the current site with agreements to move witton lane across a street or 2 and to take some ground from the park so we could fix the trinity-holte corner but that feels like a long and difficult plan to even start.
Post by: Mister E on December 22, 2023, 06:01:31 PM
It's not about pure number of seats anymore, it's about being able to offer premium matchday offerings to customers willing to may more for them. All of that takes space. The North on its own will allow us to do some more of that, but we would still be stuck in the other three stands. A full rebuild will allow the whole place to be geared towards doing that without alienating traditional match goers as they have been doing so far with the Holte End.I think you're right, Dog. And I'd add that the ground location relative to ease of access / good transport links is also a massive consideration: any major commitment to expanding and improving the ground (whether it be the current site or a new site) has to include the physical and political ability to get people in and out of the vicinity easily.
They want to do loads more things like the Lower Grounds, but are going to struggle within the existing stands. Particularly in the Holte and Doug.
As others have said, the experience and expertise of Atairos are perhaps significant in making these judgement-calls; hence why Heck has stopped the existing plans from being delivered.
Post by: Villan82 on December 22, 2023, 06:11:04 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 22, 2023, 06:38:08 PM
Post by: algy on December 22, 2023, 06:45:23 PM
Sites so close to two railway stations do not come up easily (not to mention in the area!) so I can't see how we ever do better than where we are. It is just the right location for me (even when I strip away the sentiment).Yeah, I always think if it were a brownfield site, we'd be all talking about moving to the Aston Lower Grounds. 2 railway stations in easy walking distance, and the M6 & A38 spitting distance away :)
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 22, 2023, 06:45:26 PM
Think big or go home. If our owners don't have that as a plan then shame on them. Shame indeed.
Post by: algy on December 22, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Build a 40k stadium at the Alex stadium. Once that's finished we move there and rebuild VP into a 105k capacity stadium. Once that's done we move back to VP and the women's team can have the Alex and the enjoyment that they have the second biggest stadium in the Midlands.Yes! This is the one, we need unquestionably the two biggest teams between London and Manchester to be Aston Villa and Aston Villa Women.
Think big or go home. If our owners don't have that as a plan then shame on them. Shame indeed.
Post by: Villan82 on December 22, 2023, 09:57:29 PM
Post by: SoccerHQ on December 23, 2023, 12:32:22 AM
10 or so minutes walk from the city centre, own train station and tramline with Snow hill not that far away and nice selection of pubs.
There must be some old warehouse or industrial site around the ring road we could have a look at surely to see if there could be potential?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 23, 2023, 12:34:00 AM
Post by: VillaTim on December 23, 2023, 12:48:37 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 23, 2023, 01:06:40 AM
The minute Heck opened his mouth this week I had a bad feeling about this game. Deflated me. We were on the march and that idiot tempted fate
How exactly does that work?
Post by: Somniloquism on December 23, 2023, 01:11:46 AM
Post by: nick harper on December 23, 2023, 04:36:35 AM
Would be interesting to know how - according to what they said in the fans consultation thing this week - they are going to add 2-3k more seats by reconfiguring what we have now?
Is that a definite and was there any more detail on how and when?
Post by: Villan82 on December 23, 2023, 12:12:08 PM
The minute Heck opened his mouth this week I had a bad feeling about this game. Deflated me. We were on the march and that idiot tempted fate
How exactly does that work?
Too much to drink for me last night. Still, it has been all ambition since 2018 with NSWE and Heck's time with us has been a bit reminiscent of things best left in the past
Post by: olaftab on December 23, 2023, 01:09:35 PM
It may be desolate at the moment but I agree with paul e. This is a viable site and could be termed as further development of city centre to east and north, complimentary to current Eastside expansion.As I've said before if we had to move the gas towers at nechells would be the best. Close enough to still be counted as Aston, just about walkable from the city centre, right by the ringroad and expressway and if you include everything between rupert street and the canal it's pretty much a square site which gives loads of option for how we fit things in. In terms of footprint it'd be about half again on top of the current site. It's also not so penned in by residential areas so you reduce the risk of us being bad neighbours.It's in a truly desolate area, though, and I don't think it would be much better in terms of location than where we are now. Probably worse, in fact.
Post by: luke95 on December 23, 2023, 01:18:40 PM
As I've said before if we had to move the gas towers at nechells would be the best. Close enough to still be counted as Aston, just about walkable from the city centre, right by the ringroad and expressway and if you include everything between rupert street and the canal it's pretty much a square site which gives loads of option for how we fit things in. In terms of footprint it'd be about half again on top of the current site. It's also not so penned in by residential areas so you reduce the risk of us being bad neighbours.Sure I've read that that land is now for student accommodation or something to do with the Uni .
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 23, 2023, 04:31:10 PM
The minute Heck opened his mouth this week I had a bad feeling about this game. Deflated me. We were on the march and that idiot tempted fate
How exactly does that work?
Too much to drink for me last night. Still, it has been all ambition since 2018 with NSWE and Heck's time with us has been a bit reminiscent of things best left in the past
He’s been here a few month, been publicly in a crest design and stadium redevelopment proposal. How is that so horrific it conjures dark images in your head?
Post by: Gareth on December 23, 2023, 05:14:15 PM
Would be interesting to know how - according to what they said in the fans consultation thing this week - they are going to add 2-3k more seats by reconfiguring what we have now?
Was sat thinking that before kick off last night…only area I could see is if they could put something where the Corner Flag is?
Post by: DB on December 23, 2023, 05:47:09 PM
Would be interesting to know how - according to what they said in the fans consultation thing this week - they are going to add 2-3k more seats by reconfiguring what we have now?
Was sat thinking that before kick off last night…only area I could see is if they could put something where the Corner Flag is?
Maybe do what Newcastle did, remove the boxes from one stand I.e. the DE ?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 23, 2023, 05:55:11 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 23, 2023, 06:10:14 PM
Post by: olaftab on December 23, 2023, 06:18:56 PM
It looks as though capacity provision for LG and TV is preventing "stadium sold out" for most matches.
Post by: CT Villan on December 23, 2023, 07:56:37 PM
Keep Villa at VP for me.
Post by: nick harper on December 23, 2023, 10:47:38 PM
Thank you.
It looks as though capacity provision for LG and TV is preventing "stadium sold out" for most matches.
Is that why they don’t announce the attendance at the game any more?
Post by: Risso on December 23, 2023, 11:03:43 PM
All this talk of moving Villa to somewhere outside of Aston makes it start to sound like an American sports franchise. What's that Houston Oilers, not making enough money then up and move to Nashville, hundreds of miles away and in a completely different state. Elmdon Villa does has a certain je ne sais quoi about it though !
Keep Villa at VP for me.
It's nothing like moving a franchise if it stays in the same city.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 23, 2023, 11:07:29 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 23, 2023, 11:09:13 PM
Post by: luke95 on December 23, 2023, 11:14:40 PM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?Not very unless you want five a side pitch.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 23, 2023, 11:23:16 PM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?Not very unless you want five a side pitch.
And water polo.
Post by: VillaTim on December 23, 2023, 11:28:18 PM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?The Sliding the new stand in on rails idea was probably more realistic :)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 23, 2023, 11:32:58 PM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?
"Raise The Titanic? It would be cheaper to lower the Atlantic".
Post by: Exeter 77 on December 23, 2023, 11:36:53 PM
Am I remembering it correctly that the pitch is on what was the Lower Grounds boating lake then?How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?Not very unless you want five a side pitch.
And water polo.
Post by: DeKuip on December 24, 2023, 01:26:51 AM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?It would make the goals bigger.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 24, 2023, 01:30:20 AM
Am I remembering it correctly that the pitch is on what was the Lower Grounds boating lake then?How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?Not very unless you want five a side pitch.
And water polo.
It is, but as that was man-made it didn't have much effect. The big problem for many years has been the raised water table under the ground
Post by: olaftab on December 24, 2023, 01:52:48 AM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?I take it you are not a mathmatician and over familiar with trigonometry?
Post by: The Edge on December 24, 2023, 06:35:08 AM
He might be thinking of the Nou Camp. They did exactly that donkeys years back but there was a lot of space from the pitch to the stands so it was feasible. It would be impossible to do that at Villa Park.How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?I take it you are not a mathmatician and over familiar with trigonometry?
Post by: VillaTim on December 24, 2023, 07:10:55 AM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?An idea that only the MOLE could come up with. ;)
Post by: KevinGage on December 24, 2023, 09:06:59 AM
He might be thinking of the Nou Camp. They did exactly that donkeys years back but there was a lot of space from the pitch to the stands so it was feasible. It would be impossible to do that at Villa Park.How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?I take it you are not a mathmatician and over familiar with trigonometry?
Digging down to the same depth of the lower Witton End/ North Stand, for example, wouldn't be impossible. And we already have space around what is one of the biggest pitches in the country.
As mentioned Barcelona did it and I believe Porto and Marseille did as well. Cost wise there's an old saying about digging down costing twice as much to build up. That, combined with any concerns about the raised water table, may put the kybosh on it.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 24, 2023, 09:17:43 AM
Post by: The Edge on December 24, 2023, 09:33:47 AM
Digging down is of course possible but pitch would have to be about the size of a 5 a side pitch.He might be thinking of the Nou Camp. They did exactly that donkeys years back but there was a lot of space from the pitch to the stands so it was feasible. It would be impossible to do that at Villa Park.How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?I take it you are not a mathmatician and over familiar with trigonometry?
Digging down to the same depth of the lower Witton End/ North Stand, for example, wouldn't be impossible. And we already have space around what is one of the biggest pitches in the country.
As mentioned Barcelona did it and I believe Porto and Marseille did as well. Cost wise there's an old saying about digging down costing twice as much to build up. That, combined with any concerns about the raised water table, may put the kybosh on it.
Post by: eamonn on December 24, 2023, 10:22:59 AM
Post by: exigo on December 24, 2023, 10:28:55 AM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?
Long studs
Post by: villa_cads on December 24, 2023, 11:52:27 AM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?
Depends very much on the ground conditions and the scale of the excavation, but in the temporary condition dewatering by pumping, permanent condition with tanking (a lined concrete box) but that might need some piles to hold in down... so not really practical across the size of the pitch. If you're not digging down, not too much of an issue.
Post by: Bad English on December 24, 2023, 11:55:43 AM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?Give it twenty years and the problem will have gone away. They will be planting rows of Pinot Noir and Chardonnay where VP once stood. ;-)
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 24, 2023, 12:18:21 PM
Moley, go back to your underground bunker to sleep and stop with these dumb suggestions.
underground is the future !!
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 24, 2023, 12:23:48 PM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?
Depends on the provisions outlined in the hedge fund's prospectus.
Post by: VillaTim on December 24, 2023, 12:26:57 PM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?armbands and a lilo
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 24, 2023, 12:29:05 PM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?
armbands and a lilo
Lilo? I wouldn't have thought that would be your sort of thing.
Post by: Villa in Denmark on December 24, 2023, 01:02:49 PM
How do you deal with the High Water Table?
armbands and a lilo
Lilo? I wouldn't have thought that would be your sort of thing.
He's thinking of lilo Lil.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 25, 2023, 12:03:33 AM
Post by: villa_cads on December 25, 2023, 01:57:50 PM
Post by: KevinGage on December 25, 2023, 02:38:07 PM
But then you're fundamentally changing the structure of that stand.
Is it worth sinking £20-30 million extra into a stand that's on the way out.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 25, 2023, 04:04:34 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 25, 2023, 05:43:24 PM
Might be able to get a few thousand more if they take out one (or both) rows of executive boxes and go higher than the current wrap around in between the North and Trinity.All sounds a bit Doug.
But then you're fundamentally changing the structure of that stand.
Is it work sinking £20-30 million extra into a stand that's on the way out.
Post by: villa_cads on December 25, 2023, 06:59:47 PM
Might be able to get a few thousand more if they take out one (or both) rows of executive boxes and go higher than the current wrap around in between the North and Trinity.All sounds a bit Doug.
But then you're fundamentally changing the structure of that stand.
Is it work sinking £20-30 million extra into a stand that's on the way out.
I wouldn't change the existing structure, just extend the exec boxes and upper tier either side of the stand, then add rows to back of the top tier. The new support structures would support the new roof and could then provide additional spaces for bars, suites etc. It's actually a very sustainable approach and keeps the stand available during the build. Then no need to pull it down. The stand is actually one of the defining attributes of Villa Park, much in the same way that Spurs recreated their double stacked boxes in their new stadium.
Re the quality, all depends on the quality of design.
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on December 25, 2023, 07:36:24 PM
How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?
If we changed codes from Association football to Subbuteo, very.
Post by: KevinGage on December 25, 2023, 08:06:04 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 26, 2023, 10:12:36 AM
I would not call the North Stand an "attribute" to Villa Park at all. More of a testament to bribery, corruption and ugly concrete.Might be able to get a few thousand more if they take out one (or both) rows of executive boxes and go higher than the current wrap around in between the North and Trinity.All sounds a bit Doug.
But then you're fundamentally changing the structure of that stand.
Is it work sinking £20-30 million extra into a stand that's on the way out.
I wouldn't change the existing structure, just extend the exec boxes and upper tier either side of the stand, then add rows to back of the top tier. The new support structures would support the new roof and could then provide additional spaces for bars, suites etc. It's actually a very sustainable approach and keeps the stand available during the build. Then no need to pull it down. The stand is actually one of the defining attributes of Villa Park, much in the same way that Spurs recreated their double stacked boxes in their new stadium.
Re the quality, all depends on the quality of design.
Post by: Gareth on December 26, 2023, 10:25:57 AM
All for stopping the development at this point if they are exploring alternatives that mean those currently sitting there are able to maintain their seats whilst part of the eventual development is built. Also on board if they actually do what they say and spend elsewhere in the ground on facilities…not holding my breath though
Post by: villa_cads on December 26, 2023, 10:36:05 AM
I would not call the North Stand an "attribute" to Villa Park at all. More of a testament to bribery, corruption and ugly concrete.Might be able to get a few thousand more if they take out one (or both) rows of executive boxes and go higher than the current wrap around in between the North and Trinity.All sounds a bit Doug.
But then you're fundamentally changing the structure of that stand.
Is it work sinking £20-30 million extra into a stand that's on the way out.
I wouldn't change the existing structure, just extend the exec boxes and upper tier either side of the stand, then add rows to back of the top tier. The new support structures would support the new roof and could then provide additional spaces for bars, suites etc. It's actually a very sustainable approach and keeps the stand available during the build. Then no need to pull it down. The stand is actually one of the defining attributes of Villa Park, much in the same way that Spurs recreated their double stacked boxes in their new stadium.
Re the quality, all depends on the quality of design.
Would you settle for 'distinctive' ?!
Post by: TonyD on December 26, 2023, 10:44:57 AM
Season ticket holders can bring a friend.
They can sit on their lap.
Post by: VillaTim on December 26, 2023, 11:09:40 AM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 26, 2023, 12:13:52 PM
It makes sense, just feels conservative.
Post by: Villafirst on December 26, 2023, 12:50:00 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on December 26, 2023, 12:51:15 PM
Other teams have managed to expand and increase their capacities. Liverpool's was difficult with CPO's to overcome. I still find it difficult to believe that it's going to take 2 years?
I think the two year timescale is now out the window.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 26, 2023, 01:05:13 PM
Post by: astonvilla82 on December 26, 2023, 01:57:38 PM
Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 26, 2023, 02:17:23 PM
Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.
The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
To be fair, I think that's Everton's line.
Post by: curiousorange on December 26, 2023, 05:45:56 PM
Digging down is of course possible but pitch would have to be about the size of a 5 a side pitch.He might be thinking of the Nou Camp. They did exactly that donkeys years back but there was a lot of space from the pitch to the stands so it was feasible. It would be impossible to do that at Villa Park.How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?I take it you are not a mathmatician and over familiar with trigonometry?
Digging down to the same depth of the lower Witton End/ North Stand, for example, wouldn't be impossible. And we already have space around what is one of the biggest pitches in the country.
As mentioned Barcelona did it and I believe Porto and Marseille did as well. Cost wise there's an old saying about digging down costing twice as much to build up. That, combined with any concerns about the raised water table, may put the kybosh on it.
I remember the chapter in Simon Inglis' wonderful 'Football Grounds of Europe' about Monaco, and the pitch is on something like level 7 of the structure, and the car park and offices are below it.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 26, 2023, 07:26:41 PM
Digging down is of course possible but pitch would have to be about the size of a 5 a side pitch.He might be thinking of the Nou Camp. They did exactly that donkeys years back but there was a lot of space from the pitch to the stands so it was feasible. It would be impossible to do that at Villa Park.How feasible is lowering the pitch to get a further tier in ?I take it you are not a mathmatician and over familiar with trigonometry?
Digging down to the same depth of the lower Witton End/ North Stand, for example, wouldn't be impossible. And we already have space around what is one of the biggest pitches in the country.
As mentioned Barcelona did it and I believe Porto and Marseille did as well. Cost wise there's an old saying about digging down costing twice as much to build up. That, combined with any concerns about the raised water table, may put the kybosh on it.
I remember the chapter in Simon Inglis' wonderful 'Football Grounds of Europe' about Monaco, and the pitch is on something like level 7 of the structure, and the car park and offices are below it.
That'll be because they started the stadium development at scratch.
Post by: Villan82 on December 26, 2023, 10:35:51 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 27, 2023, 11:40:52 AM
I know there is no logical link at all and it's the drink talking but I wish Heck hadn't done that update last week as it's been shit since he opened his mouth
No logical link at all, but the same thought crossed my mind last night.
Post by: VillaTim on December 27, 2023, 11:46:57 AM
I know there is no logical link at all and it's the drink talking but I wish Heck hadn't done that update last week as it's been shit since he opened his mouththe timing was idiotic
Post by: The Edge on December 27, 2023, 11:51:05 AM
Well he absolutely brought the mood down with his ham fisted announcement. He could of sweetened it with something along the lines of "the stadium development is on hold for the time being whilst we look at bigger and better alternatives " It was a very corporate American way to deliver some bad news. "I know it's Christmas eve but I can't help that. You're fired"I know there is no logical link at all and it's the drink talking but I wish Heck hadn't done that update last week as it's been shit since he opened his mouth
No logical link at all, but the same thought crossed my mind last night.
Post by: eamonn on December 27, 2023, 01:40:07 PM
Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.
The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
To be fair, I think that's Everton's line.
The People's Club
Mes que un club
If you're gonna have a cuppa have a Club (Milk)
Post by: The Edge on December 27, 2023, 07:22:30 PM
Any club that calls themselves The People's Club is as cringey as it gets.Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.
The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
To be fair, I think that's Everton's line.
The People's Club
Mes que un club
If you're gonna have a cuppa have a Club (Milk)
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 27, 2023, 07:24:58 PM
Any club that calls themselves The People's Club is as cringey as it gets.Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.
The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
To be fair, I think that's Everton's line.
The People's Club
Mes que un club
If you're gonna have a cuppa have a Club (Milk)
Everton - the People's Club.
Well, historically, at least the White People's Club.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 27, 2023, 08:00:14 PM
Any club that calls themselves The People's Club is as cringey as it gets.Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.
The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
To be fair, I think that's Everton's line.
The People's Club
Mes que un club
If you're gonna have a cuppa have a Club (Milk)
Everton - the People's Club.
Well, historically, at least the White People's Club.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/07/race.world
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 27, 2023, 08:03:16 PM
Any club that calls themselves The People's Club is as cringey as it gets.Liverpool were buying houses for over 20 years, and treating the local community like shit. They are the last club I want us to emulate when it comes to expanding capacity.
The people's club bullshit, where have I heard that before
To be fair, I think that's Everton's line.
The People's Club
Mes que un club
If you're gonna have a cuppa have a Club (Milk)
Everton - the People's Club.
Well, historically, at least the White People's Club.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/07/race.world
It runs even deeper than that at Everton. Back to their "never signed a black player" days.
Post by: DB on December 27, 2023, 08:47:52 PM
I guess the bigger ground development will happen after that of the attendances are satisfactory for them.
Heck is not handling this well.
Post by: Ads on December 27, 2023, 08:55:27 PM
Post by: itbrvilla on December 27, 2023, 09:05:01 PM
So it sounds like the club are adding 2 to3 k seat this summer to see what the attendances will be as they state a lot of home games are not sold out, 200 odd or so...hmm...obvious reasons for this.I'm.not buying the 200 seats not being sold as a valid reason for the the change of plan.
I guess the bigger ground development will happen after that of the attendances are satisfactory for them.
Heck is not handling this well.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 27, 2023, 09:12:16 PM
Is our betting sponsor going this season?
I believe so, Heck felt the BK8 logo was way too legible.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 27, 2023, 09:13:52 PM
all those seats are likely to be single seats.So it sounds like the club are adding 2 to3 k seat this summer to see what the attendances will be as they state a lot of home games are not sold out, 200 odd or so...hmm...obvious reasons for this.I'm.not buying the 200 seats not being sold as a valid reason for the the change of plan.
I guess the bigger ground development will happen after that of the attendances are satisfactory for them.
Heck is not handling this well.
Post by: itbrvilla on December 27, 2023, 09:14:36 PM
They are.all those seats are likely to be single seats.So it sounds like the club are adding 2 to3 k seat this summer to see what the attendances will be as they state a lot of home games are not sold out, 200 odd or so...hmm...obvious reasons for this.I'm.not buying the 200 seats not being sold as a valid reason for the the change of plan.
I guess the bigger ground development will happen after that of the attendances are satisfactory for them.
Heck is not handling this well.
Post by: saunders_heroes on December 27, 2023, 09:16:45 PM
So it sounds like the club are adding 2 to3 k seat this summer to see what the attendances will be as they state a lot of home games are not sold out, 200 odd or so...hmm...obvious reasons for this.I'm.not buying the 200 seats not being sold as a valid reason for the the change of plan.
I guess the bigger ground development will happen after that of the attendances are satisfactory for them.
Heck is not handling this well.
That’s really disappointing. Every time we’ve built a new stand the average attendances have increased, and I dont see why it wouldn’t be the same this time. The North Stand needs to go, and not just to increase capacity. Leg room is awful and facilities are second rate.
Post by: Ads on December 27, 2023, 09:30:46 PM
Villa Park rebuild ahoy.
Post by: London Villan on December 27, 2023, 09:50:57 PM
Post by: dorsetvillian on December 27, 2023, 10:24:07 PM
Post by: itbrvilla on December 27, 2023, 10:30:47 PM
None of this makes sense. The owners have serious ambition. We have a world class manager hear for the long run. Performances at Villa Park light years better than many of us can remember. A 20K waiting list for season tickets. Surely the club would be mad not to expand and tap into this. What about those on the list, they must be so happy hearing the latest news. The non sell out at the moment is because of the TV and LG. The communication and execution under Heck has been a shambles. Everything at the club seems positive apart from his actions and communication.Why can't they be honest with us.
Post by: London Villan on December 27, 2023, 10:49:45 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 27, 2023, 10:50:49 PM
Post by: Des Little on December 27, 2023, 11:02:43 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:04:51 PM
Shame Doug isn’t still here, he could give us his contact for that nice brown and red cladding they used on the Holte (and his brewery) - who needs a rebuild?
Maybe Flipping Heck has been possessed by Doug’s spirit?
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:05:40 PM
None of this makes sense. The owners have serious ambition. We have a world class manager hear for the long run. Performances at Villa Park light years better than many of us can remember. A 20K waiting list for season tickets. Surely the club would be mad not to expand and tap into this. What about those on the list, they must be so happy hearing the latest news. The non sell out at the moment is because of the TV and LG. The communication and execution under Heck has been a shambles. Everything at the club seems positive apart from his actions and communication.
I think it’s over 35k at the minute.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 27, 2023, 11:12:45 PM
37,000 at the last count and it gets bigger with every announcement. In reality it's the Hotel California of waiting lists.None of this makes sense. The owners have serious ambition. We have a world class manager hear for the long run. Performances at Villa Park light years better than many of us can remember. A 20K waiting list for season tickets. Surely the club would be mad not to expand and tap into this. What about those on the list, they must be so happy hearing the latest news. The non sell out at the moment is because of the TV and LG. The communication and execution under Heck has been a shambles. Everything at the club seems positive apart from his actions and communication.
I think it’s over 35k at the minute.
Post by: Des Little on December 27, 2023, 11:14:34 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:16:53 PM
I heard from a reliable source that they discussed how many of the mythical waiting list had actually bought tickets within the past two years, and it was extremely low. If they aren’t buying single match tickets, they won’t be buying season tickets that’s for sure.
The club must have money to burn then if they’re turning down approaching two grand from people like me.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:17:58 PM
If they aren’t buying single match tickets, they won’t be buying season tickets that’s for sure.
I am, and I will.
Post by: Des Little on December 27, 2023, 11:19:30 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on December 27, 2023, 11:20:02 PM
If they aren’t buying single match tickets, they won’t be buying season tickets that’s for sure.
Not sure about that at all, its a pain in the arse buying singles, not sure Id do it if I didn't have a ST.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:24:02 PM
So we believe that if we magically produced a 70k stadium, we’d fill it through all these folk on the list?
To quote myself from the other thread:
“We know that 30,000 don’t genuinely want to buy season tickets, but it’s not ‘utter bullshit’. It’s a list of 35,000 people who say they want to buy a season ticket. If it was utter bullshit me and my two kids would have one (or three) by now.”
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 27, 2023, 11:28:01 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:42:22 PM
I don't think it's exactly controversial to say that there is a waiting list but the number on it and the number on it who want to buy one are very different numbers indeed.
I don’t dispute that. It’s just rather annoying when people imply you don’t actually exist with phrases like ‘utter bullshit’.
Post by: ROBBO on December 27, 2023, 11:48:26 PM
Post by: Des Little on December 27, 2023, 11:49:47 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 27, 2023, 11:54:40 PM
How much does it cost to see a Villa match these days? Last time I was in the Witton end was 1976.
It's more expensive nowadays.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 27, 2023, 11:58:30 PM
I wasn’t being a waiting list denier, I am simply questioning the numbers quoted, and the genuine intentions of many on it.
Declaring as ‘utter bullshit’ doesn’t strike me as ‘simply questioning’.
How many off the waiting list do you think bought season tickets to bump London Villan’s lad up 2000 places? About 10?
Post by: Villan82 on December 28, 2023, 12:33:21 AM
Ellis and Lerner you can understand but not these guys. Just when we need all the good vibes Heck keeps dropping the u-turns
Heck strikes me as the type who doesn't get football.
Post by: Villan82 on December 28, 2023, 12:39:34 AM
Post by: Pat Mustard on December 28, 2023, 08:32:11 AM
By my reckoning this is the third time we have planned for a new North Stand and the third time we have shelved it.
Ellis and Lerner you can understand but not these guys. Just when we need all the good vibes Heck keeps dropping the u-turns
Heck strikes me as the type who doesn't get football.
Absolutely. He doesn’t get football, he doesn’t understand our fan base and he doesn’t understand what kind of city Birmingham is. It’s like we have brought in the commercial/boardroom equivalent of Steven Gerrard.
Post by: Risso on December 28, 2023, 09:06:59 AM
Post by: Mister E on December 28, 2023, 09:13:20 AM
this needs to be fed into the next FAB meeting (for what it's worth).None of this makes sense. The owners have serious ambition. We have a world class manager hear for the long run. Performances at Villa Park light years better than many of us can remember. A 20K waiting list for season tickets. Surely the club would be mad not to expand and tap into this. What about those on the list, they must be so happy hearing the latest news. The non sell out at the moment is because of the TV and LG. The communication and execution under Heck has been a shambles. Everything at the club seems positive apart from his actions and communication.Why can't they be honest with us.
Post by: IFWaters on December 28, 2023, 09:39:24 AM
I've no doubt the owners have the money and the ambition but I think it's not as easy fitting in the FFP regulations. They probably can't be transparent about it because it tells every selling club how much money we can spend. Just a theory. Agree with the sentiments about Heck, not impressed atm.
Post by: DB on December 28, 2023, 09:42:53 AM
I heard from a reliable source that they discussed how many of the mythical waiting list had actually bought tickets within the past two years, and it was extremely low. If they aren’t buying single match tickets, they won’t be buying season tickets that’s for sure.
I am on the list, I am a Claret member so is my lad. I don’t go every game as we cannot get seats together a lot of the time. But agree they looked at the ST waiting list vs those that go to matches and don’t read much into the list against expansion.
Even if you don’t really want a ST, the stadium would sell out with 50k.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 28, 2023, 09:50:10 AM
I'm not jumping to Hecks defence as the communication has been underhand but I read something about the Everton 10 point deduction that referenced interest payments on their new stadium. I'm guessing but perhaps there was some aspect of funding the north stand that fell foul of FFP at this time or it could be the owners want to redirect money from stadium to squad given how fast we've progressed.There was an anomaly with the Everton problem but the FFP rules clearly state that infrastructure development is not contributing to FFP which is purely a Profit and Loss measurement.
I've no doubt the owners have the money and the ambition but I think it's not as easy fitting in the FFP regulations. They probably can't be transparent about it because it tells every selling club how much money we can spend. Just a theory. Agree with the sentiments about Heck, not impressed atm.
There are Accounting rules that determine the application of costs and expenses.
So no,FFP has nothing to do with the abandonment of the North Stand development.
Post by: olaftab on December 28, 2023, 10:01:53 AM
But in 76 Villa to me were everything.How much does it cost to see a Villa match these days? Last time I was in the Witton end was 1976.
It's more expensive nowadays.
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 10:10:10 AM
Post by: Villan82 on December 28, 2023, 10:39:47 AM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 28, 2023, 10:41:09 AM
Spurs in a brilliant 60k stadium, Everton building a 55k one, West Ham pulling 60k a game, Newcastle already with 51k and looking for more. Then us, shoe-horning extra seats in on the cheap, which is exactly what Ellis would do in these circumstances.
It is all such a let down.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 28, 2023, 10:42:06 AM
Ads, you were like most of us super excited (Americanism used deliberately here!) about the new North Stand. What do you think is going on, it doesn't make sense to bin it.
I think they just want it to be even more awesome than originally planned. Have a great day!
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 10:46:17 AM
Ads, you were like most of us super excited (Americanism used deliberately here!) about the new North Stand. What do you think is going on, it doesn't make sense to bin it.
I think they're going to build a new Villa Park in B6 with houses etc on the Witton purchased up. None of the stands give them the ability to recreate what Spurs for example can do. I think there is, to quote Atairos own corporate jargon/mission statement, a "long term and patient approach" going on. You would not be able to color me surprised for this to happen.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 28, 2023, 10:51:01 AM
Ads, you were like most of us super excited (Americanism used deliberately here!) about the new North Stand. What do you think is going on, it doesn't make sense to bin it.
I think they're going to build a new Villa Park in B6 with houses etc on the Witton purchased up. None of the stands give them the ability to recreate what Spurs for example can do. I think there is, to quote Atairos own corporate jargon/mission statement, a "long term and patient approach" going on. You would not be able to color me surprised for this to happen.
Agree with this, I think it's a far more likely scenario than the owners are just fattening us up to sell on when we're in the Champions League.
Post by: AV82EC on December 28, 2023, 10:52:29 AM
Ads, you were like most of us super excited (Americanism used deliberately here!) about the new North Stand. What do you think is going on, it doesn't make sense to bin it.
I think they're going to build a new Villa Park in B6 with houses etc on the Witton purchased up. None of the stands give them the ability to recreate what Spurs for example can do. I think there is, to quote Atairos own corporate jargon/mission statement, a "long term and patient approach" going on. You would not be able to color me surprised for this to happen.
I think this is what is happening as well but my view is that it could have been communicated way more clearly than it has. That said if they are planning on a huge B6 redevelopment then I understand the need to not frighten the horses so to speak and keep any larger redevpt under wraps for the time being. We’ll see.
Post by: Villan82 on December 28, 2023, 10:53:14 AM
Flattening the whole thing and starting again s unnecessary when the Holte and Trinity are already at the top level.
The original plan would have given us a 50k world class stadium by about 2026. A new plan, might potentially, get us to what 55-60k by about 2032?
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 11:00:47 AM
What other viable reason would there be for a strategic investment? Broadcasting rights aren't changing in the next half a decade. Given their Comcast, Sky, NBC links its possible that some sort of individual broadcasting might have intrigued them- but it's more connections than finance that NWSE would need.
It's a rebuild.
Post by: aev on December 28, 2023, 11:10:08 AM
They're not at top level. Brighton, dire out of town ground that it is, has much better facilities than the Holte. Tottenham's ground is the best in the country- and I am seldom in the habit of praising the Post Code lottery winners in white.
What other viable reason would there be for a strategic investment? Broadcasting rights aren't changing in the next half a decade. Given their Comcast, Sky, NBC links its possible that some sort of individual broadcasting might have intrigued them- but it's more connections than finance that NWSE would need.
It's a rebuild.
But why the silence?
Post by: Villan82 on December 28, 2023, 11:12:13 AM
They're not at top level. Brighton, dire out of town ground that it is, has much better facilities than the Holte. Tottenham's ground is the best in the country- and I am seldom in the habit of praising the Post Code lottery winners in white.
What other viable reason would there be for a strategic investment? Broadcasting rights aren't changing in the next half a decade. Given their Comcast, Sky, NBC links its possible that some sort of individual broadcasting might have intrigued them- but it's more connections than finance that NWSE would need.
It's a rebuild.
I like the character of the existing footprint. That awkward corner between Holte and Trinity is a throwback to the old stands on the same site. I really would prefer the existing plans we had with the possibility of then rebuilding the Witton over the road. A boring bowl identical to what others have done doesn't appeal to me.
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 11:12:51 AM
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Post by: aev on December 28, 2023, 11:17:32 AM
As there's nothing to say yet. Short of a few obsessives online, this doesn't really take up much thinking of the overall Villa populous.
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Maybe, but it also doesn't fit with Heck and his 200 unsold seats either.
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 11:19:01 AM
As there's nothing to say yet. Short of a few obsessives online, this doesn't really take up much thinking of the overall Villa populous.
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Maybe, but it also doesn't fit with Heck and his 200 unsold seats either.
I think it does. It looks like what it is; the quickest excuse to be found, the thinnest of masks. Its not plausible because it isn't. It doesn't need to be either.
Post by: FrankyH on December 28, 2023, 11:41:40 AM
Post by: aev on December 28, 2023, 11:46:52 AM
As there's nothing to say yet. Short of a few obsessives online, this doesn't really take up much thinking of the overall Villa populous.
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Maybe, but it also doesn't fit with Heck and his 200 unsold seats either.
I think it does. It looks like what it is; the quickest excuse to be found, the thinnest of masks. Its not plausible because it isn't. It doesn't need to be either.
He didn't need an excuse, he could simply have said we are going to review what had been previously announced to ensure that the decision is the right one.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 28, 2023, 11:53:16 AM
Exactly. But he is American.As there's nothing to say yet. Short of a few obsessives online, this doesn't really take up much thinking of the overall Villa populous.
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Maybe, but it also doesn't fit with Heck and his 200 unsold seats either.
I think it does. It looks like what it is; the quickest excuse to be found, the thinnest of masks. Its not plausible because it isn't. It doesn't need to be either.
He didn't need an excuse, he could simply have said we are going to review what had been previously announced to ensure that the decision is the right one.
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 11:53:48 AM
As there's nothing to say yet. Short of a few obsessives online, this doesn't really take up much thinking of the overall Villa populous.
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Maybe, but it also doesn't fit with Heck and his 200 unsold seats either.
I think it does. It looks like what it is; the quickest excuse to be found, the thinnest of masks. Its not plausible because it isn't. It doesn't need to be either.
He didn't need an excuse, he could simply have said we are going to review what had been previously announced to ensure that the decision is the right one.
"Why are you reviewing it?"
"As we don't sell 200 tickets on average per home game."
Post by: aev on December 28, 2023, 12:01:53 PM
As there's nothing to say yet. Short of a few obsessives online, this doesn't really take up much thinking of the overall Villa populous.
Good luck to then building anything in the UK though and combating the ambition less twerps and NIMBYs that will no doubt try and halt the progression.
Maybe, but it also doesn't fit with Heck and his 200 unsold seats either.
I think it does. It looks like what it is; the quickest excuse to be found, the thinnest of masks. Its not plausible because it isn't. It doesn't need to be either.
He didn't need an excuse, he could simply have said we are going to review what had been previously announced to ensure that the decision is the right one.
"Why are you reviewing it?"
"As we don't sell 200 tickets on average per home game."
A master of communication.
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 12:04:42 PM
Post by: aev on December 28, 2023, 12:09:10 PM
You don't need to be. It's soon forgotten, as we bemoan not spending enough in January or something.
I think it helps, certainly from those at the "top".
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 12:13:06 PM
Post by: aev on December 28, 2023, 12:20:42 PM
It just seems odd to me that we don't, even if we are the most captive of all customer bases.
Post by: Ads on December 28, 2023, 12:37:08 PM
Post by: algy on December 28, 2023, 12:56:13 PM
I like my jam yesterday, but what am I going to about it? Keep buying tickets until I die? Probably.Well, that's the thing. Unlike most businesses, a football club's core "customers" don't really have a choice. I'm not going to suddenly start supporting West Brom because I don't like Steven Gerrard being manager or whatever.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 28, 2023, 01:01:59 PM
I like my jam yesterday, but what am I going to about it? Keep buying tickets until I die? Probably.
And if we don't expand, you'll probably still be "buying" tickets after you die.
Post by: dorsetvillian on December 28, 2023, 02:10:47 PM
Post by: TonyD on December 28, 2023, 03:02:36 PM
There is a general whiff of falling behind about all this, too.Doug rebuilt the two biggest stands we have.
Spurs in a brilliant 60k stadium, Everton building a 55k one, West Ham pulling 60k a game, Newcastle already with 51k and looking for more. Then us, shoe-horning extra seats in on the cheap, which is exactly what Ellis would do in these circumstances.
It is all such a let down.
Post by: Chris Smith on December 28, 2023, 03:12:43 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 28, 2023, 03:16:42 PM
We simply have to expand Villa Park or god forbid build a new stadium.why ? not so long back we had to close a part of the ground down due to lack of customers
Post by: The Man With A Stick on December 28, 2023, 03:17:26 PM
There is a general whiff of falling behind about all this, too.Doug rebuilt the two biggest stands we have.
Spurs in a brilliant 60k stadium, Everton building a 55k one, West Ham pulling 60k a game, Newcastle already with 51k and looking for more. Then us, shoe-horning extra seats in on the cheap, which is exactly what Ellis would do in these circumstances.
It is all such a let down.
And made a pig's ear of it.
Post by: The Edge on December 28, 2023, 03:20:46 PM
Ear earThere is a general whiff of falling behind about all this, too.Doug rebuilt the two biggest stands we have.
Spurs in a brilliant 60k stadium, Everton building a 55k one, West Ham pulling 60k a game, Newcastle already with 51k and looking for more. Then us, shoe-horning extra seats in on the cheap, which is exactly what Ellis would do in these circumstances.
It is all such a let down.
And made a pig's ear of it.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 28, 2023, 03:34:56 PM
Post by: Risso on December 28, 2023, 03:42:49 PM
Next season in what could be our first time playing in the top European competition for 40 years do people really to do it in a three sided stadium? I realise that there is no perfect time for this work but that would seem to me to be the worst possible time.
There's the possibility that we might not qualify still, and even if we do, it might be the grand total of three extra games. And some of the games might be against the likes of Young Boys or Union Berlin, in which case the ground will probably not be full anyway. In short, it's not worth putting our future on hold for a competition we might not even qualify for anyway.
Post by: VillaTim on December 28, 2023, 03:45:11 PM
with his very own building company - Ellmanton Construction. He invented building.There is a general whiff of falling behind about all this, too.Doug rebuilt the two biggest stands we have.
Spurs in a brilliant 60k stadium, Everton building a 55k one, West Ham pulling 60k a game, Newcastle already with 51k and looking for more. Then us, shoe-horning extra seats in on the cheap, which is exactly what Ellis would do in these circumstances.
It is all such a let down.
Well they did the Witton anyway and hoovered up the Platt money from the mafia
Post by: Richard on December 28, 2023, 03:49:50 PM
Next season in what could be our first time playing in the top European competition for 40 years do people really to do it in a three sided stadium? I realise that there is no perfect time for this work but that would seem to me to be the worst possible time.
There's the possibility that we might not qualify still, and even if we do, it might be the grand total of three extra games. And some of the games might be against the likes of Young Boys or Union Berlin, in which case the ground will probably not be full anyway. In short, it's not worth putting our future on hold for a competition we might not even qualify for anyway.
Take your point Risso although there will be 4 group games at home next season.
Post by: Steve67 on December 28, 2023, 04:03:20 PM
Post by: nick harper on December 28, 2023, 04:04:53 PM
I guess the 15% increase in pricing is not helping and maybe Heck thought the Midlands was a suburb of London, but the pricing for the Everton cup game was a pilot on how far they thought they could push things and that was a big failure. I don’t think the ham-fisted way they introduced TV and LG should be a barometer of demand given the ill-feeling it created.
I’m not as convinced as others there is a grand master plan waiting to be revealed. More likely they will see what they can squeeze from what they see as the existing demand.
Post by: IFWaters on December 28, 2023, 04:04:57 PM
Post by: VillaTim on December 28, 2023, 04:10:56 PM
I’m still struggling to understand why they suddenly don’t think they can fill a 50,000 ground. I presume Purslow had the stats to back it up given how far the plans had got.did they ever publish the attendance ?
I guess the 15% increase in pricing is not helping and maybe Heck thought the Midlands was a suburb of London, but the pricing for the Everton cup game was a pilot on how far they thought they could push things and that was a big failure. I don’t think the ham-fisted way they introduced TV and LG should be a barometer of demand given the ill-feeling it created.
I’m not as convinced as others there is a grand master plan waiting to be revealed. More likely they will see what they can squeeze from what they see as the existing demand.
Post by: nick harper on December 28, 2023, 04:16:37 PM
I’m still struggling to understand why they suddenly don’t think they can fill a 50,000 ground. I presume Purslow had the stats to back it up given how far the plans had got.did they ever publish the attendance ?
I guess the 15% increase in pricing is not helping and maybe Heck thought the Midlands was a suburb of London, but the pricing for the Everton cup game was a pilot on how far they thought they could push things and that was a big failure. I don’t think the ham-fisted way they introduced TV and LG should be a barometer of demand given the ill-feeling it created.
I’m not as convinced as others there is a grand master plan waiting to be revealed. More likely they will see what they can squeeze from what they see as the existing demand.
About 23k I believe.
Post by: VillaTim on December 28, 2023, 04:18:19 PM
was it published or is that a guessI’m still struggling to understand why they suddenly don’t think they can fill a 50,000 ground. I presume Purslow had the stats to back it up given how far the plans had got.did they ever publish the attendance ?
I guess the 15% increase in pricing is not helping and maybe Heck thought the Midlands was a suburb of London, but the pricing for the Everton cup game was a pilot on how far they thought they could push things and that was a big failure. I don’t think the ham-fisted way they introduced TV and LG should be a barometer of demand given the ill-feeling it created.
I’m not as convinced as others there is a grand master plan waiting to be revealed. More likely they will see what they can squeeze from what they see as the existing demand.
About 23k I believe.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 28, 2023, 04:23:57 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 28, 2023, 04:39:38 PM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".
Sounds a little understated for my tastes, but you're heading in the right direction.
Post by: VillaTim on December 28, 2023, 04:44:27 PM
Everton was 23,851.and they bought 5000
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 28, 2023, 05:07:38 PM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".
Perfect.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 28, 2023, 05:11:05 PM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".
Now you're talking... 👌👍
Post by: London Villan on December 28, 2023, 05:17:01 PM
Post by: frankmosswasmyuncle on December 28, 2023, 06:20:20 PM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".Design of The Millenium Award!
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on December 28, 2023, 06:27:16 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 28, 2023, 07:10:58 PM
It’s going to be like that tiny stand at Watford. Remember the one that was on the left of the away fans.Get ready for a chorus of "what the fucking hell is that" from the away fans.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 28, 2023, 07:45:35 PM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory.
Ignoring the rest, if asked to describe what I would like our new ground to look like, it would be this. Perfect.
Post by: Risso on December 28, 2023, 09:23:01 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on December 28, 2023, 10:34:57 PM
If it is a rebuild , buying up houses on Witton Lane could take years though.
Increasing the Witton Lane would be more of a longer term project, if it was required. Redeveloping.the North Stand would take us to approx 52,000, so the Witton Lane would only beed to be considered if we were looking at a bigger capacity than that.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 28, 2023, 10:58:19 PM
Post by: jon collett on December 28, 2023, 11:03:26 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 28, 2023, 11:04:03 PM
I want everyone to know they are at Villa Park and not some soulless super stadium that looks like a space ship. It can have all the modern amenities, great service and spacing, even bogs that work and don’t overflow. But the stadium needs to be a nod to our Victorian past. 4 stands please. Old Trinity and Holte exterior all around and tight to the pitch so that it scares the shit out of opponents. I never want fans of other sides to think isn’t this nice. It needs to leave them with memories of the stadium so they talk amongst themselves of how Villa have respected their history in all they do. No detail missed.If it’s a new build, sadly that won’t happen.
It would be designed on a £ per square metre and that means concrete and a single structure.
If you want Villa Park then we stay at Villa Park.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 28, 2023, 11:06:34 PM
Erm the Victorian past was a bowl with a cycle track between the stands and the pitch!
Oh yeh we don’t need a replica of that. It’s more the outside needs to have that feel, and the inside modern where it needs to be and intimidating from a football standpoint. It might not be the best example because it’s falling down, but La Bombonera has all of that. Everything screams its history and it will be a shame if/when it comes down. Given the exuberance if the fans it might happen during a game.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 28, 2023, 11:07:25 PM
I want everyone to know they are at Villa Park and not some soulless super stadium that looks like a space ship. It can have all the modern amenities, great service and spacing, even bogs that work and don’t overflow. But the stadium needs to be a nod to our Victorian past. 4 stands please. Old Trinity and Holte exterior all around and tight to the pitch so that it scares the shit out of opponents. I never want fans of other sides to think isn’t this nice. It needs to leave them with memories of the stadium so they talk amongst themselves of how Villa have respected their history in all they do. No detail missed.
I know it won't increase the capacity, but I would like to.see the Holte Lower and the lower part of the any new North Stand development become safe standing areas.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 28, 2023, 11:07:26 PM
Erm the Victorian past was a bowl with a cycle track between the stands and the pitch!
You could also quibble on the fact that we moved in in 1897, and the Victorian period ended in 1901. We didn't even call it Villa Park until 1900, and didn't own it till 1911.
I reckon Victorian era Villa Park would have been pretty primitive.
Post by: Toronto Villa on December 28, 2023, 11:10:08 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on December 28, 2023, 11:12:10 PM
I’d also like for the new ground to have a spot where we can pump out armaments for the war effort. Use them against Man U if needed.
As long as they don't insist on the Victorian dress code for the laydeez.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 28, 2023, 11:12:18 PM
I’d also like for the new ground to have a spot where we can pump out armaments for the war effort. Use them against Man U if needed.
My gt grandad worked at Kynochs, which became IMI in Witton, and that was one of the biggest armaments factories in the country.
Let's get that motherfucker back up and running.
Post by: Drummond on December 29, 2023, 08:31:59 AM
Erm the Victorian past was a bowl with a cycle track between the stands and the pitch!
You could also quibble on the fact that we moved in in 1897, and the Victorian period ended in 1901. We didn't even call it Villa Park until 1900, and didn't own it till 1911.
I reckon Victorian era Villa Park would have been pretty primitive.
So what you're saying is to leave things as they are, as a mod to our Proud History...
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
Ok the waiting list, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the cast majority on there would buy one. However, I would guess that there would be plenty of touts on the list who would then sell tickets on.
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 29, 2023, 08:43:28 AM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".Design of The Millenium Award!
Best to check that with Paul first, before making such a proclamation...
Post by: Risso on December 29, 2023, 08:45:02 AM
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
It's not, because in two years when we're still in European competitions, we'd have a nice new stand, with great facilities, with 10,000 more people in it. And then we'd have that extra capacity forever.
Post by: algy on December 29, 2023, 09:14:46 AM
Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".I'm sold
Post by: Nunkin1965 on December 29, 2023, 09:19:31 AM
Take my money!Well if it is a total rebuild then I hope it's the most eff off amazing redbrick fortress , built to look like some steampunk Victorian zeppelin factory. Think Birmingham University Aston Webb buildings love child with the Albert Hall laced with Hagia Sophia style domes in 4 corners over the respective palaces of the Arts, Science, Industry and Literature to feature mosaics of Shakespeare and other figures from our city region. Atop a rebuilt Holte End doubled in size Golden lions with glowing red eyes and a visiting players tunnel painted black with claret neon sign "Meet Thy Doom".I'm sold
Post by: PeterWithe on December 29, 2023, 09:23:30 AM
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
It's not, because in two years when we're still in European competitions, we'd have a nice new stand, with great facilities, with 10,000 more people in it. And then we'd have that extra capacity forever.
I'm in the latter camp, get it done, get it done as quickly as we can and then its done forever.
Post by: algy on December 29, 2023, 09:26:02 AM
Are those 10k extra people all going to be Villa supporters though? Or tourists on a day out? Cos I bet that makes up a pretty sizeable chunk of West Ham's new found support, maybe Spurs too. To me, that's largely who the GA+ stuff is aimed at - people who want an 'experience'. And I got the impression that's exactly who the new North Stand was aimed at - get a whole 10k stand's worth of people who want to come and see the Holte End in full force whilst stuffing their faces in a Lower Grounds type buffet.
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
It's not, because in two years when we're still in European competitions, we'd have a nice new stand, with great facilities, with 10,000 more people in it. And then we'd have that extra capacity forever.
I mean, if that's what you want then fair enough. But it's not what I'd want.
Post by: DB on December 29, 2023, 09:26:18 AM
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
It's not, because in two years when we're still in European competitions, we'd have a nice new stand, with great facilities, with 10,000 more people in it. And then we'd have that extra capacity forever.
Agree, they need to be thinking longer term as we are not going to be in the CL for 1 year. Also, its not just what it looks like on TV, media and reps from around Europe will be visiting, having an chunk of the stadium being re-developed and expanded will show that we are fwd looking club, on the up. Look at the sh*t Manure get on the state of OT.
Post by: Risso on December 29, 2023, 09:32:31 AM
Are those 10k extra people all going to be Villa supporters though? Or tourists on a day out? Cos I bet that makes up a pretty sizeable chunk of West Ham's new found support, maybe Spurs too. To me, that's largely who the GA+ stuff is aimed at - people who want an 'experience'. And I got the impression that's exactly who the new North Stand was aimed at - get a whole 10k stand's worth of people who want to come and see the Holte End in full force whilst stuffing their faces in a Lower Grounds type buffet.
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
It's not, because in two years when we're still in European competitions, we'd have a nice new stand, with great facilities, with 10,000 more people in it. And then we'd have that extra capacity forever.
I mean, if that's what you want then fair enough. But it's not what I'd want.
Even if there are 10,000 "tourists" at West Ham taking in a match because they're in London, they've still got 50,000+ "proper" fans. I think the chances of it being of 10,000 tourists coming to watch the Holte would be miniscule. We'd fill the ground, easily.
Post by: The Edge on December 29, 2023, 09:46:36 AM
Post by: Villan82 on December 29, 2023, 09:50:38 AM
Re: this fabled 200 unsold seats. Are they random seats dotted around the ground which would be difficult to sell? Are they unsold from the TV and LG sections which nobody wanted in the fucking first place? Also I see plenty of matches on tv, West Ham & Man City for starters, who regularly have plenty of empty seats yet are planning to increase capacity over the coming years so why are we any different? How are we going to increase capacity by 8k by reorganising seats by 2028? You can't fill in the corners of the North Stand due to the massive pillars holding up the roof. So you could remove the roof and fill in the corners leaving the bulk of the stand in place which would look bloody awful from outside and is a complete dog's dinner botch job which a certain Mr Ellis would be proud of and besides all that rejigging and fucking around would still cost a fortune. The whole thing is an utter mess and we're left second guessing what Hecks plans are. Why are our very wealthy owners allowing this clown to mess with us like this and why is he seemingly allowed carte blanche to mess about with our historic beloved stadium with little or no consultation to us the fans who are following in the footsteps of our forefathers by following OUR football club? Apologies for the rant but the more I think about it the angrier I'm becoming.
Well said, I feel the same.
The plans we had looked ace and also left the possibility of a future new Witton. What is Heck playing at? He is effectively putting a ceiling on our future growth.
And I highly doubt there is some grand plan in th works. And uf there is, I am not sure Heck is the person I would want masterminding a new Villa Park.
Post by: Villan82 on December 29, 2023, 09:54:31 AM
Erm the Victorian past was a bowl with a cycle track between the stands and the pitch!
You could also quibble on the fact that we moved in in 1897, and the Victorian period ended in 1901. We didn't even call it Villa Park until 1900, and didn't own it till 1911.
I reckon Victorian era Villa Park would have been pretty primitive.
So what you're saying is to leave things as they are, as a mod to our Proud History...
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
Ok the waiting list, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the cast majority on there would buy one. However, I would guess that there would be plenty of touts on the list who would then sell tickets on.
The Holte was being rebuilt when we played Inter in 1994 and it was an amazing night.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 29, 2023, 10:02:36 AM
I think we will be seeing big plans soon.
Post by: kipeye on December 29, 2023, 10:12:02 AM
Post by: AV82EC on December 29, 2023, 10:12:53 AM
Post by: Drummond on December 29, 2023, 10:17:49 AM
On which note... Its our big anniversary next season, and potentially bigger European competition too. Having a quarter of the ground closed is a bad idea.
It's not, because in two years when we're still in European competitions, we'd have a nice new stand, with great facilities, with 10,000 more people in it. And then we'd have that extra capacity forever.
Oh I can see that argument too, and the smoke and mirrors statements don't help.
However, a season with Champions League football in a full Villa Park, going the whole hog and then doing something could work as well.
There must be some other ideas floating about, and our new investors will likely want a say as well. I'd guess we will hear more news in due course.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 29, 2023, 10:24:12 AM
Heck hasn’t got the same job as Purslow either. Purslow was the CEO with oversight over the whole club including the Football side hence the Gerrard appointment. As soon as that went tits up Nas and Wes decided to go in a different direction and split the Commercial and Football sides entirely hence Purslows exit and Heck coming in. This is the first time we’ve had someone with this much power in that position before and he isn’t here to make friends, he’s here to drive performance commercially as much as Unai is in a football sense. I get why he’s doing some of the things he’s doing but his comms skills are frankly appalling. We’ll see how this develops but he hasn’t got off to the best of starts.
I think this is the crux of the matter - he's here to make money, not friends. He doesn't think the badge is sponsor-friendly so it goes. He thinks a new North Stand wouldn't be cost-effective so the old one stays. Prepare yourselves for corporate everything that isn't nailed down and Weimar Republic-level ticket price inflation.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 29, 2023, 10:24:44 AM
Post by: GarTomas on December 29, 2023, 10:43:31 AM
Along the journey into becoming part of the big 4/5/6 we are naturally going to attract a lot of casuals who attend match days on a game by game basis, not fans or supporters per se but bona fide day trippers who are coming for one day out every so often. The club is right trying to maximise the revenue from those fans via GA+ or other means.
I’m a season ticket holder for the last 15 years and had friends visiting for the Christmas period. One of the things they wanted to do was see a football game and the Lower Grounds was the only way to get 4 seats together (especially with zero booking history for guests) I understand the frustration that some feel in the fact the ability for the Holte Suite to be used for season ticket holders for free is now gone, but realistically the capacity in there is 500/600 at most? And if it was the same 500/600 going week in week out rather than shared across fans on a ballot basis it’s hardly true to say that the 30k season ticket holders are being deprived something they were buying as part of their season ticket and they have now been mis sold something.
With the North Stand plans, it’s hard to know what to think as the data the club has around waiting lists, demand etc and what the target market was. If they added more seats and were targeting GA+ maybe the current take up means actually the demand is not where they thought it was. I guess a lot of the data was put together under Purslow and now a new group are looking at it and challenging assumptions.
I sat in the Trinity Upper for the Sheff United game - the leg room was shocking compared to what you get in the Witton Upper but the concourse is wider. It’s clearly going to be difficult whatever the club do, rebuild/redevelop existing stands or move. I don’t think anyone really thinks moving is the right thing to do but any development is likely to have considerable short term pain for many. Neither place seemed great to get half time refreshment unless you leave on 35 minutes but to be honest most of the issues in the Witton are staff related.
The badge, meh. Ask 20,000 or however many did the survey and you are going to get something naff. The 50 or so people debating on here probably couldn’t agree what is good or bad or a design so any mass consultation like this is likely to be mixed at best.
Finally on Heck - he’s here to do a job and maximise revenues, that’s it. Along the way we are naturally going to become somethings we currently detest about Man City or Man Utd, lots of new fans who don’t understand our history or football (some of the comments I hard in the Sheff Utd game sitting in GA+ from attendees who clearly don’t watch much football let alone Villa under Emery) but I can’t find much to get to bent out of shape around what he has done so far. Time will tell as he makes further changes but it’s natural that he’s going to put his mark on certain things and piss some of us off on the way but to date there’s been little more than some bad PR which we’ve never been great at.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 29, 2023, 10:46:13 AM
I'm also disappointed with the news but there has to be a wider plan we are not yet privy to. The new investors with their stadium building and management experience coming in is one pointer, the other is that Heck will be coming in on a massive salary package, to justify that he is going to have to hit some pretty ambitious targets in terms of the uplift in club revenue, that uplift isn't going to be achievable with 2k extra seats squeezed into the poorest stand we have.
I think we will be seeing big plans soon.
Without the extra seats and hospitality of a new stand, he’s going to be focusing on maximising revenue per customer.
That means price wise, we are going to be paying significantly more than we are now.
Important to be aware, That doesn’t just mean lots more money for stuff you might want like TV and LG, it means lots more money for the stuff you do want - ie match tickets.
As for those 200 unsold single seats spotted around the ground - some clubs already allocate seats when you buy them - ie you say “I want a 40 quid seat” and they decide where it is, not you, picking seats for you. They do this to avoid the single unsold seats you get otherwise
I bet you what you like we have this soon enough. That’s going to be as popular as it is elsewhere.
Post by: LeeB on December 29, 2023, 10:51:30 AM
Heck hasn’t got the same job as Purslow either. Purslow was the CEO with oversight over the whole club including the Football side hence the Gerrard appointment. As soon as that went tits up Nas and Wes decided to go in a different direction and split the Commercial and Football sides entirely hence Purslows exit and Heck coming in. This is the first time we’ve had someone with this much power in that position before and he isn’t here to make friends, he’s here to drive performance commercially as much as Unai is in a football sense. I get why he’s doing some of the things he’s doing but his comms skills are frankly appalling. We’ll see how this develops but he hasn’t got off to the best of starts.
I think this is the crux of the matter - he's here to make money, not friends. He doesn't think the badge is sponsor-friendly so it goes. He thinks a new North Stand wouldn't be cost-effective so the old one stays. Prepare yourselves for corporate everything that isn't nailed down and Weimar Republic-level ticket price inflation.
I do wonder if like the seemingly 'intentionally bad basic service to drive people to the premium packages' approach is part of a strategy for selling a proposed new stadium site.
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 29, 2023, 10:52:14 AM
Heck hasn’t got the same job as Purslow either. Purslow was the CEO with oversight over the whole club including the Football side hence the Gerrard appointment. As soon as that went tits up Nas and Wes decided to go in a different direction and split the Commercial and Football sides entirely hence Purslows exit and Heck coming in. This is the first time we’ve had someone with this much power in that position before and he isn’t here to make friends, he’s here to drive performance commercially as much as Unai is in a football sense. I get why he’s doing some of the things he’s doing but his comms skills are frankly appalling. We’ll see how this develops but he hasn’t got off to the best of starts.
I think this is the crux of the matter - he's here to make money, not friends. He doesn't think the badge is sponsor-friendly so it goes. He thinks a new North Stand wouldn't be cost-effective so the old one stays. Prepare yourselves for corporate everything that isn't nailed down and Weimar Republic-level ticket price inflation.
I do wonder if like the seemingly 'intentionally bad basic service to drive people to the premium packages' approach is part of a strategy for selling a proposed new stadium site.
They've specifically said we're not moving.
Post by: LeeB on December 29, 2023, 10:53:48 AM
Heck hasn’t got the same job as Purslow either. Purslow was the CEO with oversight over the whole club including the Football side hence the Gerrard appointment. As soon as that went tits up Nas and Wes decided to go in a different direction and split the Commercial and Football sides entirely hence Purslows exit and Heck coming in. This is the first time we’ve had someone with this much power in that position before and he isn’t here to make friends, he’s here to drive performance commercially as much as Unai is in a football sense. I get why he’s doing some of the things he’s doing but his comms skills are frankly appalling. We’ll see how this develops but he hasn’t got off to the best of starts.
I think this is the crux of the matter - he's here to make money, not friends. He doesn't think the badge is sponsor-friendly so it goes. He thinks a new North Stand wouldn't be cost-effective so the old one stays. Prepare yourselves for corporate everything that isn't nailed down and Weimar Republic-level ticket price inflation.
I do wonder if like the seemingly 'intentionally bad basic service to drive people to the premium packages' approach is part of a strategy for selling a proposed new stadium site.
They've specifically said we're not moving.
I missed that, but was it 'ever' or for the forseeable future?
Post by: Risso on December 29, 2023, 10:54:45 AM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 29, 2023, 10:55:19 AM
Post by: pablo_picasso on December 29, 2023, 10:56:44 AM
Re: this fabled 200 unsold seats. Are they random seats dotted around the ground which would be difficult to sell? Are they unsold from the TV and LG sections which nobody wanted in the fucking first place? Also I see plenty of matches on tv, West Ham & Man City for starters, who regularly have plenty of empty seats yet are planning to increase capacity over the coming years so why are we any different? How are we going to increase capacity by 8k by reorganising seats by 2028? You can't fill in the corners of the North Stand due to the massive pillars holding up the roof. So you could remove the roof and fill in the corners leaving the bulk of the stand in place which would look bloody awful from outside and is a complete dog's dinner botch job which a certain Mr Ellis would be proud of and besides all that rejigging and fucking around would still cost a fortune. The whole thing is an utter mess and we're left second guessing what Hecks plans are. Why are our very wealthy owners allowing this clown to mess with us like this and why is he seemingly allowed carte blanche to mess about with our historic beloved stadium with little or no consultation to us the fans who are following in the footsteps of our forefathers by following OUR football club? Apologies for the rant but the more I think about it the angrier I'm becoming.
Well said, I feel the same.
The plans we had looked ace and also left the possibility of a future new Witton. What is Heck playing at? He is effectively putting a ceiling on our future growth.
And I highly doubt there is some grand plan in th works. And uf there is, I am not sure Heck is the person I would want masterminding a new Villa Park.
I wouldn't trust the arrogant tosser to organise my breakfast.
And I don't eat breakfast...
Post by: eamonn on December 29, 2023, 11:36:47 AM
Who knows? If Heck told me today was Friday I'd check the calendar.
No one is ever sure what day of the week it is between Christmas and New Years ;)
Post by: LeeB on December 29, 2023, 11:47:00 AM
Post by: DeKuip on December 29, 2023, 11:53:35 AM
As for those 200 unsold single seats spotted around the ground - some clubs already allocate seats when you buy them - ie you say “I want a 40 quid seat” and they decide where it is, not you, picking seats for you. They do this to avoid the single unsold seats you get otherwise
Aren’t the unsold single seats usually season ticket holder’s seats they’ve put up for resale when they can’t attend? Often only a day or two before the game.
Post by: Chris Smith on December 29, 2023, 12:08:55 PM
As for those 200 unsold single seats spotted around the ground - some clubs already allocate seats when you buy them - ie you say “I want a 40 quid seat” and they decide where it is, not you, picking seats for you. They do this to avoid the single unsold seats you get otherwise
Aren’t the unsold single seats usually season ticket holder’s seats they’ve put up for resale when they can’t attend? Often only a day or two before the game.
I reckon so. We wanted tickets for Burnley for family members who can only make occasional games these days. On the day they went on sale they sold out in minutes but a couple of days later we were able to get 4 together in the DE.
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on December 29, 2023, 12:13:27 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on December 29, 2023, 01:02:16 PM
If it becomes prohibitively difficult for young fans to see live games then we could lose out on their support (and money) very longer term.
Post by: Billy Walker on December 29, 2023, 02:06:26 PM
Post by: wolfman999 on December 29, 2023, 03:00:45 PM
Just ruminating on it all, it strikes me that there is absolutely no sense in the medium to long-term in maintaining Villa Park as a 40-45k stadium. For V Sports, who are looking to grow the status and value of Villa as quickly as possible, it makes no sense. For the City of Birmingham it makes no sense - especially when one considers the likes of London, Glasgow, Manchester, Cardiff and Liverpool have at least one stadium of 60k. I have no idea what the plan is, but sticking with the status quo, logically, cannot be it.
Agree completely. While there is no doubt a short term drop in revenue due to reduced capacity, this decision leaves us very much mid table with regard to capacity. Both Liverpool clubs ( once Everton move), both Manchester clubs, Spurs, Arsenal and West Ham and probably Chelsea in the future and Newcastle will all have considerably more capacity than the Villa. The only way to increase revenue will then be to get more money out of the present attendees. Look forward to ever more expensive ST prices, backed up by the waiting list threat.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 29, 2023, 03:16:17 PM
As for those 200 unsold single seats spotted around the ground - some clubs already allocate seats when you buy them - ie you say “I want a 40 quid seat” and they decide where it is, not you, picking seats for you. They do this to avoid the single unsold seats you get otherwise
Aren’t the unsold single seats usually season ticket holder’s seats they’ve put up for resale when they can’t attend? Often only a day or two before the game.
They don’t count as unsold though , as they’re already bought and paid for by ST holders
Post by: villa_cads on December 29, 2023, 03:18:35 PM
Post by: nick harper on December 29, 2023, 03:55:53 PM
2023/24 Premier League season ticket prices
Club
Fulham
£595-£3,000
Tottenham
£807-£2,025
Arsenal
£974-£1,784
Newcastle
£438-£1,108
West Ham
£310-£1,105
Manchester City
£385-£1,030
Manchester United
£551-£1,007
Chelsea
£750-£940
Crystal Palace
£545-£895
Liverpool
£699-£886
Wolves
£525-£883
Aston Villa
£610-£864
Bournemouth
£595-£821
Brighton
£565-£800
Everton
£600-£690
Nottingham Forest
£465-£660
Brentford
£419-£549
Sheffield United
£419-£529
Luton Town
£510-£510
Burnley
£335-£500
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 30, 2023, 12:53:12 AM
If it becomes prohibitively difficult for young fans to see live games then we could lose out on their support (and money) very longer term.
At arsenal the ‘waiting lists’ has resulted in season tickets being passed down from one generation to the next. The emotional attachment to th seat meaning it never comes back onto the market for sale.
Post by: Scott Nielsen on December 30, 2023, 03:22:52 AM
A new stadium is just not on the cards given the very clear commitment to remaining at Villa Park for the forseeable future. As Dave W said, that's at least a decade.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 30, 2023, 06:39:53 AM
I think it is their long term plan, despite what they’re saying publicly.
My guess is that they’re looking at developing villa park with a payback within that timescale. The North Stand and Villa Live would possibly have needed a longer period to get their money back.
Post by: The Edge on December 30, 2023, 08:40:08 AM
I reckon it’d need a decade from now to acquire the land, likely from multiple landowners, agree deals with other stakeholders, get planning and to finally build the thing.If they have any plans to relocate the stadium out of B6 then the proposed 30m redevelopment of Witton Station along with the tunnel being built beneath it would be a total waste of everyone's time and money. WMCA who are jointly funding it would surely have insisted on a guarantee that Aston Villa FC would be using the site for a very long time. Imagine doing all that work then the club announcing plans to move away. The more I think about it the more it makes long term sense for the club to be looking at buying land around Villa Park for redevelopment or a total rebuild.
I think it is their long term plan, despite what they’re saying publicly.
My guess is that they’re looking at developing villa park with a payback within that timescale. The North Stand and Villa Live would possibly have needed a longer period to get their money back.
Post by: Risso on December 30, 2023, 08:40:59 AM
Post by: itbrvilla on December 30, 2023, 08:55:04 AM
Post by: algy on December 30, 2023, 09:41:53 AM
This is a good point, there's no case for redeveloping Witton station if it's not the closest station to Villa Park (or a new stadium).I reckon it’d need a decade from now to acquire the land, likely from multiple landowners, agree deals with other stakeholders, get planning and to finally build the thing.If they have any plans to relocate the stadium out of B6 then the proposed 30m redevelopment of Witton Station along with the tunnel being built beneath it would be a total waste of everyone's time and money. WMCA who are jointly funding it would surely have insisted on a guarantee that Aston Villa FC would be using the site for a very long time. Imagine doing all that work then the club announcing plans to move away. The more I think about it the more it makes long term sense for the club to be looking at buying land around Villa Park for redevelopment or a total rebuild.
I think it is their long term plan, despite what they’re saying publicly.
My guess is that they’re looking at developing villa park with a payback within that timescale. The North Stand and Villa Live would possibly have needed a longer period to get their money back.
I reckon it’d need a decade from now to acquire the land, likely from multiple landowners, agree deals with other stakeholders, get planning and to finally build the thing.
I think it is their long term plan, despite what they’re saying publicly.
My guess is that they’re looking at developing villa park with a payback within that timescale. The North Stand and Villa Live would possibly have needed a longer period to get their money back.
Also think this is a good point.
Post by: Simon Page on December 30, 2023, 09:58:25 AM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 30, 2023, 10:41:46 AM
I reckon it’d need a decade from now to acquire the land, likely from multiple landowners, agree deals with other stakeholders, get planning and to finally build the thing.If they have any plans to relocate the stadium out of B6 then the proposed 30m redevelopment of Witton Station along with the tunnel being built beneath it would be a total waste of everyone's time and money. WMCA who are jointly funding it would surely have insisted on a guarantee that Aston Villa FC would be using the site for a very long time. Imagine doing all that work then the club announcing plans to move away. The more I think about it the more it makes long term sense for the club to be looking at buying land around Villa Park for redevelopment or a total rebuild.
I think it is their long term plan, despite what they’re saying publicly.
My guess is that they’re looking at developing villa park with a payback within that timescale. The North Stand and Villa Live would possibly have needed a longer period to get their money back.
Fair point. Have they committed to this though? I thought it was at consultation stage or something like that. You’d hope the club would be straight with the council (especially as they’ll need their help in the future) so whether this happens might be a good barometer of their actual plans (regardless of what’s said).
Post by: jon collett on December 30, 2023, 10:49:37 AM
The business case hasn’t been made or agreed.
So no assurances can be given!
Post by: The Edge on December 30, 2023, 10:49:48 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if no assurances have been sought or given over Witton Station.I would. Without Villa Park being there there's no justification for spending 30 million quid on Witton Station. It's true that the work is also linked to us getting the Euros in 2028 but that's just a couple of group stage games. That alone wouldn't justify spending 30m. They spent similar on Perry Barr station for the Commonwealth games but that was largely central government money and that's become a bit of a white elephant because it should have linked up with the shuttle bus along the A34 but that never materialised.
Post by: TelfordVilla on December 30, 2023, 10:55:24 AM
Post by: Simon Page on December 30, 2023, 11:01:22 AM
Post by: DB on December 30, 2023, 11:13:48 AM
The corporate waiting list good too, so what are the reasons does he not want to expand / develop the stadium? It doesn't add up.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 30, 2023, 11:15:00 AM
Considering the above, is it likely that they'll be assessing multi sport / use options to widen opportunities for revenue as a principle consideration? That has been a key driver for the updated bernabeu and Spurs. If that is the case, then shelving the current plans avoids baked in constraints to that - a moveable pitch for example.
I think this will definitely be the case. It is already the largest stadium venue in the whole of the Midlands and the close proximity to the city centre, make it a good location for big events.
Expect that we will see more concerts etc. over the coming years.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 30, 2023, 01:02:32 PM
Considering the above, is it likely that they'll be assessing multi sport / use options to widen opportunities for revenue as a principle consideration? That has been a key driver for the updated bernabeu and Spurs. If that is the case, then shelving the current plans avoids baked in constraints to that - a moveable pitch for example.
I think this will definitely be the case. It is already the largest stadium venue in the whole of the Midlands and the close proximity to the city centre, make it a good location for big events.
Expect that we will see more concerts etc. over the coming years.
As an aside, Hecks previous employers, the 76ers, are moving away from the stadium owned and managed by Comcast, our new part owners, to a new one. Reason given that they don't own the right to get profits from the concerts, conferences, other events that take place in the same stadium.
So he'll certainly have a very good feel for what makes money at these events and what kind of stadium is needed to best profit from them.
Post by: Villan82 on December 30, 2023, 02:07:43 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 30, 2023, 02:36:00 PM
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on December 30, 2023, 04:33:03 PM
Sitting here now , curious how they will gain another 3000 seats other than a temporary stand in the corner or somethingBall-boy stools along the cinder track?
Post by: DB on December 30, 2023, 05:22:15 PM
Sitting here now , curious how they will gain another 3000 seats other than a temporary stand in the corner or something
Said before, but removal of exec boxes and seats put in?
Post by: Risso on December 30, 2023, 05:24:40 PM
Sitting here now , curious how they will gain another 3000 seats other than a temporary stand in the corner or something
Said before, but removal of exec boxes and seats put in?
They’ll never do that, would reduce income.
Post by: DB on December 30, 2023, 05:43:52 PM
Sitting here now , curious how they will gain another 3000 seats other than a temporary stand in the corner or something
Said before, but removal of exec boxes and seats put in?
They’ll never do that, would reduce income.
Move the boxes to the corners, I.e. build new ones.
Post by: Bad English on December 30, 2023, 05:47:52 PM
The 200 tickets reason is utter BS.BS?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 30, 2023, 05:56:43 PM
The 200 tickets reason is utter BS.BS?
Brown Sugar.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 30, 2023, 05:58:42 PM
Sitting here now , curious how they will gain another 3000 seats other than a temporary stand in the corner or something
Said before, but removal of exec boxes and seats put in?
They’ll never do that, would reduce income.
Move the boxes to the corners, I.e. build new ones.
Errm, why not just build seats in the corners in that case?
How many seats do you think you'd add by removing executive boxes? And how much work do you think would be needed inside the stand to change the physical infrastructure to do that?
I know it is all in good faith, but some of the suggestions in this thread are nuts (lower the pitch, for example) and make me understand why we have civil and structural engineers in this world.
Post by: Drummond on December 30, 2023, 06:07:04 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 30, 2023, 07:26:16 PM
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on December 30, 2023, 09:28:59 PM
Post by: DB on December 30, 2023, 09:29:31 PM
Sitting here now , curious how they will gain another 3000 seats other than a temporary stand in the corner or something
Said before, but removal of exec boxes and seats put in?
They’ll never do that, would reduce income.
Move the boxes to the corners, I.e. build new ones.
Errm, why not just build seats in the corners in that case?
How many seats do you think you'd add by removing executive boxes? And how much work do you think would be needed inside the stand to change the physical infrastructure to do that?
I know it is all in good faith, but some of the suggestions in this thread are nuts (lower the pitch, for example) and make me understand why we have civil and structural engineers in this world.
Putting boxes in is a lot easier than building for new seats.
Othe clubs have removed boxes e.g. Chelsea at the Shed end.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 30, 2023, 10:06:46 PM
Post by: London Villan on December 30, 2023, 10:07:43 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on December 30, 2023, 10:10:56 PM
It was mentioned in the fan briefing meeting, but no details.Found it. Thanks.
Quote
To increase capacity, we can change the seating layout in some areas to add approximately 2 to 3,000 seats. Any increase in seat numbers will clearly need to be aligned with improvements to concourse, toilets, food & beverage provision etc. Our owners will be investing significantly into upgrading facilities across Villa Park.Looking at the corners of the ground today, I struggle to see how we'd easily fit that many into the corners as they are. Wondering if my seat will be narrower next season.
Post by: Villan82 on December 30, 2023, 10:22:49 PM
Post by: DB on December 30, 2023, 10:39:47 PM
Post by: Lastfootstamper on December 30, 2023, 10:49:39 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 31, 2023, 08:26:50 AM
Post by: London Villan on December 31, 2023, 08:32:45 AM
There is potential to put seats on both sides of the North Stand.
Not cheaply though, means removing the roof, new facilities, new entrances. Easy £20m.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 31, 2023, 08:50:54 AM
Post by: Ads on December 31, 2023, 09:22:08 AM
13,000 seats. 70% season tickets and say 80% would be "normal" but the more expensive at ~£850? The Premium ones at maybe ~£1500?
The balance of match day tickets split 80/20 (rounded to 3k:1k) again at upper Trinity prices and at Lower Grounds prices would be £16m ish a year in revenue and probably a net increase of £10m.
Food/drink would be guess work but more people would spend more with better access. It would pay for itself in likely 8 years or so.
Post by: Chris Harte on December 31, 2023, 09:27:00 AM
What would the new North have delivered per season do we think?I'd go with the extra 8,000 seats for your calculations.
13,000 seats. 70% season tickets and say 80% would be "normal" but the more expensive at ~£850? The Premium ones at maybe ~£1500?
The balance of match day tickets split 80/20 (rounded to 3k:1k) again at upper Trinity prices and at Lower Grounds prices would be £16m ish a year in revenue and probably a net increase of £10m.
Food/drink would be guess work but more people would spend more with better access. It would pay for itself in likely 8 years or so.
I'd have thought the premium seats would be a lot more than two grand a season, but who knows?
Post by: KevinGage on December 31, 2023, 10:06:35 AM
It doesn't really happen anywhere else.
Maybe we're putting a pause on it whilst Heck looks at the viability of doing something with the Doug Ellis stand. Which, lets face it, has little sentimental value.
Post by: Villan82 on December 31, 2023, 10:19:39 AM
Post by: LeeB on December 31, 2023, 10:23:47 AM
The North Stand is much more urgent. It is really poor in there, it is the oldest stand, we have plenty of room behind it to do something special and it just ruins the look of the stadium.
It maybe older but it's miles better than the Witton in my experience, and it doesn't ruin the look at all, it's a brutalise masterpiece next to that piece of crap, Barratt-home esque monument to mediocrity with the travel agent's name on it.
Post by: Villan82 on December 31, 2023, 10:27:37 AM
Post by: avfc_1874 on December 31, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
It definitely is in need of an upgrade.
I'm guessing the question wasn't raised in the meeting, in how they were going to add those extra few thousand seats?
Post by: Broadlee on December 31, 2023, 10:35:21 AM
Let them look at smarter ways to construct a new stand - if possible to minimise the reduction in seats similarly as done at Anfield I believe?
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on December 31, 2023, 10:52:16 AM
I noticed today in the corner of the holte and Witton, where the latter appears to partially block the view of, at least, some seats. These were mostly empty, could this account for a large proportion of the mythical 200 unsold seats per game?I know someone who has a ST in that section. It is discounted because it has a restricted view. Whenever he can, he moves into an unoccupied seat towards the middle as do others, so I think that explains why a few seats at the edge of the stand are noticeable when the odd seat in the middle of a row would not be spotted. UTV
Post by: The Edge on December 31, 2023, 11:37:05 AM
There is potential to put seats on both sides of the North Stand.Not a n easy task though. The massive pillars holding up the roof would need to go. It would cost millions to put a new cantilever roof on the stand. They are just pissing about and delaying the inevitable. To put it into perspective Wolves have built two brand new stands at the North Bank in the time we've had our North Stand. It's really small time and I'm shocked the owners haven't stepped in and told Heck to piss off. Unless there's a much bigger redevelopment afoot . In which case bloody tell us.
Post by: Villan82 on December 31, 2023, 12:10:45 PM
It was stated at one time that they considered moving us but decided instead to redevelop what we have. There was even a consultation. I remember ticking the box about retaining the four stand look at Villa Park.
Like the badge situation in June I can only conclude the thing that changed is Heck arrived and has persuaded them to ditch it. It's quite incredible really that someone who will probably be here for 5 years max can change our strategy so radically.
The reason it annoys me so much is that it's such a bad signal. Similar happened around 2010-11. The strategy changed and look where that left us. I really wish they would just stick to the bloody plan.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 31, 2023, 12:16:35 PM
Cancelling this is the most small time thing NSWE have done since the takeover.
It was stated at one time that they considered moving us but decided instead to redevelop what we have. There was even a consultation. I remember ticking the box about retaining the four stand look at Villa Park.
Like the badge situation in June I can only conclude the thing that changed is Heck arrived and has persuaded them to ditch it. It's quite incredible really that someone who will probably be here for 5 years max can change our strategy so radically.
The reason it annoys me so much is that it's such a bad signal. Similar happened around 2010-11. The strategy changed and look where that left us. I really wish they would just stick to the bloody plan.
I don't know why you are getting so wound up about this. It's likely to be a temporary pause while all options are assessed, especially now a new company who specialise in this field are now on board.
Post by: Bad English on December 31, 2023, 12:20:16 PM
Was in the Lower North, for the 1st time since the England - Spain friendly in 2001.I was in the Upper North for the debut of Milan Baros against Blackburn; the scabs on my knees are just starting to heal.
It definitely is in need of an upgrade.
I'm guessing the question wasn't raised in the meeting, in how they were going to add those extra few thousand seats?
They had better not be thinking of reducing the seat pitch.
Post by: john2710 on December 31, 2023, 12:21:16 PM
Heck's remit is increase the clubs revenue & I have no doubt that's what he'll do. They'd be foolish if they didn't consider the option of moving to a new stadium & the potential revenues that could be generated from that.
In the meantime they'll squeeze every penny they can from the existing stadium, with minimal levels of investment.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 31, 2023, 12:22:42 PM
I think people are getting wound up because this Heck bloke has fucked up everything he has touched. The badge, The Terrace View , The Holte Suite.Cancelling this is the most small time thing NSWE have done since the takeover.
It was stated at one time that they considered moving us but decided instead to redevelop what we have. There was even a consultation. I remember ticking the box about retaining the four stand look at Villa Park.
Like the badge situation in June I can only conclude the thing that changed is Heck arrived and has persuaded them to ditch it. It's quite incredible really that someone who will probably be here for 5 years max can change our strategy so radically.
The reason it annoys me so much is that it's such a bad signal. Similar happened around 2010-11. The strategy changed and look where that left us. I really wish they would just stick to the bloody plan.
I don't know why you are getting so wound up about this. It's likely to be a temporary pause while all options are assessed, especially now a new company who specialise in this field are now on board.
His communications are at best disingenuous.
Now he has left everybody in Limbo about the North Stand.
Post by: PeterWithe on December 31, 2023, 12:24:37 PM
I cant see that being it, I still think it all points to either a move or a more or less complete rebuild.
Post by: gpbarr on December 31, 2023, 12:50:59 PM
Maybe erect a Villa museum somewhere on the vacated property to keep a foot print there, but while it's not what I want, the move is coming IMO.
Post by: Villan82 on December 31, 2023, 01:08:14 PM
Where we are is perfect for us and we have the space to develop.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on December 31, 2023, 01:10:27 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on December 31, 2023, 01:15:32 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 31, 2023, 01:16:33 PM
Post by: GarTomas on December 31, 2023, 01:17:33 PM
Post by: gpbarr on December 31, 2023, 01:19:26 PM
Post by: jon collett on December 31, 2023, 02:17:53 PM
“For clarity, rumours on social media suggesting that this decision will result in a new stadium elsewhere are entirely false. Moving away from Villa Park is not part of any plans.”
There’s plenty of wriggle room there.
Post by: Risso on December 31, 2023, 02:22:07 PM
How many times do they have to say "We're not moving" before some people accept that we're not moving?
Well they said we were building a new North Stand, and now we're not. I don't think there are any plans to move, but obviously what they say now can change at any time.
Post by: usav on December 31, 2023, 02:23:36 PM
How many times do they have to say "We're not moving" before some people accept that we're not moving?
Not sure that number has been discovered yet.
Post by: john e on December 31, 2023, 02:29:42 PM
Post by: jon collett on December 31, 2023, 02:31:52 PM
sorry I’m not up to speed on this so where are the new 2-3k seats going to be built ?
It’s never been stated and if true it would necessity substantial rebuilding. There is no current space in any corners.
Post by: john e on December 31, 2023, 02:35:26 PM
sorry I’m not up to speed on this so where are the new 2-3k seats going to be built ?
It’s never been stated and if true it would necessity substantial rebuilding. There is no current space in any corners.
Ok thanks
Post by: algy on December 31, 2023, 02:45:18 PM
Strong agreement here. Was in the North Stand for the Burnley game ... forgot how much I love the upper tier in it. Best view in world football, and as LeeB says it's a brutalist masterpiece, as relevant to the city's architectural past as the new Holte End is.The North Stand is much more urgent. It is really poor in there, it is the oldest stand, we have plenty of room behind it to do something special and it just ruins the look of the stadium.
It maybe older but it's miles better than the Witton in my experience, and it doesn't ruin the look at all, it's a brutalise masterpiece next to that piece of crap, Barratt-home esque monument to mediocrity with the travel agent's name on it.
Post by: VillaTim on December 31, 2023, 03:03:15 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 31, 2023, 05:59:19 PM
Post by: The Edge on December 31, 2023, 06:05:33 PM
I don't think the delay to the North Stand is any more controversial than they see us being competitive for the first time in decades, probably well ahead of what they considered possible even 12 months ago. The prospect of playing in the Champions League & compeating at the top end of the PL in a ground with a reduced capacity is rightly being seen as a huge disadvantage.It's been said plenty of times on here. The lower North is a solid Bank and could be kept. The upper North could be removed and built entirely new just as Liverpool did. We would only lose less than 4,000 seats during construction by doing it that way.
Heck's remit is increase the clubs revenue & I have no doubt that's what he'll do. They'd be foolish if they didn't consider the option of moving to a new stadium & the potential revenues that could be generated from that.
In the meantime they'll squeeze every penny they can from the existing stadium, with minimal levels of investment.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 31, 2023, 06:08:20 PM
I don't think the delay to the North Stand is any more controversial than they see us being competitive for the first time in decades, probably well ahead of what they considered possible even 12 months ago. The prospect of playing in the Champions League & compeating at the top end of the PL in a ground with a reduced capacity is rightly being seen as a huge disadvantage.It's been said plenty of times on here. The lower North is a solid Bank and could be kept. The upper North could be removed and built entirely new just as Liverpool did. We would only lose less than 4,000 seats during construction by doing it that way.
Heck's remit is increase the clubs revenue & I have no doubt that's what he'll do. They'd be foolish if they didn't consider the option of moving to a new stadium & the potential revenues that could be generated from that.
In the meantime they'll squeeze every penny they can from the existing stadium, with minimal levels of investment.
It has been said plenty of times on here because people seem to ignore the problem of re-routing all the utilities, which is why it can’t be done. Even though that has been said plenty of times too.
Post by: DB on December 31, 2023, 06:34:32 PM
Post by: villa_cads on December 31, 2023, 06:37:50 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on December 31, 2023, 06:44:55 PM
I can't see why re-routing the utilities couldn't be done in isolation from new construction anyway. There is nothing to stop that starting now if there was a desire. In the context of the shelved plans, I'd have thought it would be more about programme.
Well the club said it would take seven months and had to be done 1) after demolition and 2) before building could begin.
I’m pretty sure they asked someone who knows about these things.
Post by: villa_cads on December 31, 2023, 07:03:21 PM
Post by: usav on December 31, 2023, 07:14:44 PM
Post by: Villan82 on December 31, 2023, 07:26:09 PM
Post by: maidstonevillain on December 31, 2023, 07:48:44 PM
I'm sure they did ask someone, but this is construction, there are many ways to do things depending on time and budget.
And who you ask.
Post by: The Edge on December 31, 2023, 08:06:36 PM
They must know that announcing things, and going full bells and whistles with them, only to cancel them with no explanation is going to raise eyebrows.Exactly
Post by: The Edge on December 31, 2023, 08:24:36 PM
I've worked in construction for most of my life. I'm an electrician and I don't see the issue with relocating utilities. Any groundworks would be done once the upper tier has been removed. The lower North could be left in place whilst the construction of the new stand can carry on behind it.I don't think the delay to the North Stand is any more controversial than they see us being competitive for the first time in decades, probably well ahead of what they considered possible even 12 months ago. The prospect of playing in the Champions League & compeating at the top end of the PL in a ground with a reduced capacity is rightly being seen as a huge disadvantage.It's been said plenty of times on here. The lower North is a solid Bank and could be kept. The upper North could be removed and built entirely new just as Liverpool did. We would only lose less than 4,000 seats during construction by doing it that way.
Heck's remit is increase the clubs revenue & I have no doubt that's what he'll do. They'd be foolish if they didn't consider the option of moving to a new stadium & the potential revenues that could be generated from that.
In the meantime they'll squeeze every penny they can from the existing stadium, with minimal levels of investment.
It has been said plenty of times on here because people seem to ignore the problem of re-routing all the utilities, which is why it can’t be done. Even though that has been said plenty of times too.
Post by: IFWaters on January 01, 2024, 06:58:58 AM
another member of the North Stand architectural heritage fan club here . It's unique.Norwich City built an identical copy. So no.
Post by: Drummond on January 01, 2024, 09:30:34 AM
Post by: Nii Lamptey on January 01, 2024, 09:30:49 AM
Post by: Flamingo Lane on January 01, 2024, 09:41:17 AM
Post by: nigel on January 01, 2024, 10:01:56 AM
Can you really offer the full premium experience with a stand behind the goal? I know Arsenal used to have the Clock End at Highbury, but that was out of necessity. As the two art deco stands running the length of the pitch were listed buildings.
It doesn't really happen anywhere else.
Maybe we're putting a pause on it whilst Heck looks at the viability of doing something with the Doug Ellis stand. Which, lets face it, has little sentimental value.
This has crossed my mind, too.
Get it all done in one, rather than two phases.
Or, get the one done in a way that the second can can just fit onto it
Post by: Des Little on January 01, 2024, 12:18:16 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 01, 2024, 01:34:39 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 01, 2024, 01:37:54 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 01, 2024, 02:05:30 PM
Or, option three, get rid of Heck and bring in somebody who won't rip up everything we had planned.
Don't kid yourself that he's just some guy acting out his own wishes, he may be cack handed with his comms but he's not making these decisions alone.
Post by: Villan82 on January 01, 2024, 02:14:56 PM
Or, option three, get rid of Heck and bring in somebody who won't rip up everything we had planned.
Don't kid yourself that he's just some guy acting out his own wishes, he may be cack handed with his comms but he's not making these decisions alone.
I know that but I have no doubt he is a major part of what has gone on since end of the 22/23 season. It was previously in the public domain that NSWE were committed to Villa Park and there was a consultation about its redevelopment.
Heck seems to have persuaded them to change course on a lot of stuff. I honestly believe that. NSWE didn't put a foot wrong really until he arrived.
Post by: jon collett on January 01, 2024, 02:17:53 PM
And in any case their briefs are different.
Post by: KevinGage on January 01, 2024, 02:31:14 PM
For all its faults, the North Stand is the last link we have to teams and games of the past; Tony Morley v Anderlecht, Platt, Houghton and Phil King against Inter twice, Bozzie's heroics against Tranmere all played out against that backdrop.
If we're ditching it it should be for something majestic.
Post by: ez on January 01, 2024, 02:52:24 PM
The lower north is not suitable for seating. Never has been.I don't think the delay to the North Stand is any more controversial than they see us being competitive for the first time in decades, probably well ahead of what they considered possible even 12 months ago. The prospect of playing in the Champions League & compeating at the top end of the PL in a ground with a reduced capacity is rightly being seen as a huge disadvantage.It's been said plenty of times on here. The lower North is a solid Bank and could be kept. The upper North could be removed and built entirely new just as Liverpool did. We would only lose less than 4,000 seats during construction by doing it that way.
Heck's remit is increase the clubs revenue & I have no doubt that's what he'll do. They'd be foolish if they didn't consider the option of moving to a new stadium & the potential revenues that could be generated from that.
In the meantime they'll squeeze every penny they can from the existing stadium, with minimal levels of investment.
Post by: The Edge on January 01, 2024, 03:53:42 PM
I'm thinking a two stage plan. Keep the lower North open whilst the new stand is built behind it. Once that's ready they can open it and rebuild the lower section to suit. It's not that difficult. It's a shame though as that lower tier is the oldest part of the ground. They just re-profiled the old Witton End front section when the North Stand was built.The lower north is not suitable for seating. Never has been.I don't think the delay to the North Stand is any more controversial than they see us being competitive for the first time in decades, probably well ahead of what they considered possible even 12 months ago. The prospect of playing in the Champions League & compeating at the top end of the PL in a ground with a reduced capacity is rightly being seen as a huge disadvantage.It's been said plenty of times on here. The lower North is a solid Bank and could be kept. The upper North could be removed and built entirely new just as Liverpool did. We would only lose less than 4,000 seats during construction by doing it that way.
Heck's remit is increase the clubs revenue & I have no doubt that's what he'll do. They'd be foolish if they didn't consider the option of moving to a new stadium & the potential revenues that could be generated from that.
In the meantime they'll squeeze every penny they can from the existing stadium, with minimal levels of investment.
Post by: Hookeysmith on January 01, 2024, 04:53:04 PM
I'm not savvy enough to capture the images nd put them on here. Would appreciate if someone could as worthy of discussion
Post by: The Edge on January 01, 2024, 05:00:29 PM
Although I am not a supporter of moving to a new ground the Architectural rendering on The Holy Trinity YT (Sheff utd review) looked unbelievably sexy. Mixture of modern and historic and looked like a cathedral.They were on here a while back, maybe a week but I can't be arsed to scroll back. I agree they are superb.
I'm not savvy enough to capture the images nd put them on here. Would appreciate if someone could as worthy of discussion
Post by: Hopadop on January 01, 2024, 07:25:02 PM
Given the massive headstart it's got with the tube, London's probably not the best comparison but both Arsenal and Spurs have a lot of shuttle buses laid on. Even so, I'd say Spurs with their brand spanker of stadium is still not that good, even though WHL station was upgraded as part of the redevelopment and the trains are very regular. You're still better off walking to Northumberland Park or all the way down to Seven Sisters.
What neither have are many arriving by car.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 02, 2024, 09:28:11 AM
1. Cleaning up the branding
2. Moving to a purpose built stadium (shared with other sports/income streams I think).
In fairness it was a good interview and potentially he is following the same playbook at Villa.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 02, 2024, 10:27:22 AM
I think people are being very kind.Can you really offer the full premium experience with a stand behind the goal? I know Arsenal used to have the Clock End at Highbury, but that was out of necessity. As the two art deco stands running the length of the pitch were listed buildings.
It doesn't really happen anywhere else.
Maybe we're putting a pause on it whilst Heck looks at the viability of doing something with the Doug Ellis stand. Which, lets face it, has little sentimental value.
This has crossed my mind, too.
Get it all done in one, rather than two phases.
Or, get the one done in a way that the second can can just fit onto it
This isn't about crowd number for a possible Champions League season, or about doing an even bigger development or relocation. It's about money.
I'm pretty sure they've cancelled it as they are concerned about lack of demand for corporate and GA+ tickets. The development was never about an extra few thousand standard-priced tickets which would never have given a return on the investment. It was about significantly increased corporate offer and premium-priced tickets. Unfortunately, they don't seem to understand that the principal reason for the relative failure of Terrace View and Lower Grounds is the location, not the concept.
Post by: Ads on January 02, 2024, 10:32:05 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 02, 2024, 10:35:39 AM
They're not failing though. They're increasingly doing good numbers.You reckon?
Yet people talk about blocks of seats becoming available a few days before the match. These are unsold GA+ seats that had been held back but failed to sell.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 02, 2024, 10:51:54 AM
They're not failing though. They're increasingly doing good numbers.You reckon?
Yet people talk about blocks of seats becoming available a few days before the match. These are unsold GA+ seats that had been held back but failed to sell.
To be doing what they consider ‘good numbers’ they don’t have to sell out straight away necessarily.
They’ll be expecting it to take a while to get traction, especially as it’s a product offering of a type we haven’t really had before.
Post by: Villan82 on January 02, 2024, 10:52:08 AM
There was a long presentation posted on the Heck thread where he discussed his achievements at the 76ers where their income grew ridiculously under his guidance. It was a while since I watched it but two things stood out:
1. Cleaning up the branding
2. Moving to a purpose built stadium (shared with other sports/income streams I think).
In fairness it was a good interview and potentially he is following the same playbook at Villa.
This is the worry.
1. Leaving our beloved Villa Park
2. Heck being in charge of redesigning something new.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 02, 2024, 10:54:00 AM
Post by: Risso on January 02, 2024, 11:08:50 AM
Also there is no lack of demand for corporates - they’re permanently sold out.
That's right. People are confusing this with the Lower Grounds and Terrace View, which aren't corporate.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 02, 2024, 11:11:23 AM
I don't for a minute believe they are doing 'good numbers' And the numbers they have done will have been boosted by the novelty factor.They're not failing though. They're increasingly doing good numbers.You reckon?
Yet people talk about blocks of seats becoming available a few days before the match. These are unsold GA+ seats that had been held back but failed to sell.
To be doing what they consider ‘good numbers’ they don’t have to sell out straight away necessarily.
They’ll be expecting it to take a while to get traction, especially as it’s a product offering of a type we haven’t really had before.
Terrace View will continue to be a failure until they can offer better tickets with the package - and that would mean relocating current ST holders.
Post by: Ads on January 02, 2024, 11:16:32 AM
They've not canned the new North because Terrace View is at 80% occupancy just a few months after it was born surrounded by immense unpopularity.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 02, 2024, 11:18:57 AM
Similarly, concerts and even NFL must have the potential to be money spinners for the club. London has Wembley, Emirites, Spurs, West Ham and Twickenham that regularly host ‘other’ stuff. A Madison Sq Gardens Sphere is in for planning (plus the O2). Villa Park should be designed to cash-in on these opportunities too.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 02, 2024, 11:19:57 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 02, 2024, 11:33:08 AM
They are doing good numbers. I guess its a difficult thing to argue if you don't accept that and premise your argument that it's failing on that basis/fallacy.IF it's 80% occupancy, that still means 200 tickets unsold. In our best season in 25 years.
They've not canned the new North because Terrace View is at 80% occupancy just a few months after it was born surrounded by immense unpopularity.
Post by: algy on January 02, 2024, 12:13:23 PM
I refer back to the minutes of the FAB meeting - Terrace View was "tickets sold", Lower Grounds was "numbers using". Spot the difference.Presumably they expect a few folk with e.g season tickets to be occasional Lower Grounds users, though?
The thing is, all of the stands at Villa Park now we're built at a time when the average crowds were just over 30k, and sub 20k crowds weren't unheard of. Two of the stands (Witton Lane and Holte End) needed to be rebuilt in a short timeframe, and so maybe a tighter budget than they'd ideally have had, due to the Taylor Report meaning we had no choice but to rebuild both in the space of 4 years. Ellis gets pelters for it, but it wasn't an easy hand he was dealt there & the Holte End at least has held up reasonably well.
To me - staying at Villa Park is important. It's a better site than it's sometimes given credit for on here, and I think there aren't actually many realistic options of places that improve any of the problems that we have. It's only really the city centre that would be able to take an influx of 50-60k people and it not have a noticeable impact on transport.
If we had the option to temporarily move out (to Perry Barr?), rebuild, move back - I think that'd be the best option. However, if that isn't available then the North Stand is our best opportunity to improve the stadium. The Trinity Road and Witton Lane stands aren't going to hold too many more people than they are currently, and there's no room behind the Holte End for e.g. a retractable pitch or any other space age stuff.
IMO unless we rebuild, we need something better than the Purslow designs for the North Stand
Post by: john e on January 02, 2024, 12:26:21 PM
I just don’t think Aston Villa is a club that attracts the corporate type of person, it’s just not our identity.
We have traditionally garnered support from Birmingham and surrounding areas in the West Midlands. We used to have a massive walk up following on match day, probably more than most
I would even suggest our fan base who attend matches are more working-classish than those of the glory glory clubs, I recognise thats a sweeping statement and have no actual evidence to back it up. It’s just a feeling
And that’s why the lower grounds and the emphasis on more corporate and hospitality uptake is not going down well and gets booed every time it’s even mentioned
Makes you think they might be flogging a dead horse
You’ve got to understand your fan base, what they are, where they come from what it is that drives them and I believe at Villa it’s different from other clubs
I think Heck sees everyone as the same sort of cash cow and what works at one place will also work at another.
and if I’m honest I don’t trust him
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 02, 2024, 12:31:57 PM
Post by: Risso on January 02, 2024, 12:40:36 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 02, 2024, 12:51:59 PM
There's a big market for corporate at Villa. They do it very well indeed. There's also big market for fairly priced normal tickets. What I'm not sure there's such a demand for, is expensive half way measures like the Terrace View. Nobody is ever going to use it to take a client, and it makes an already not cheap normal match day stupidly expensive. Some people might use it for a one off treat, but I can't imagone many people doing it regularly.
The only reason I've potentially considered it is to take my Mom to a match for the first time, as it would give us a chance to get transport to and from the ground without hassle.
Post by: frank black on January 02, 2024, 12:58:57 PM
There's a big market for corporate at Villa. They do it very well indeed. There's also big market for fairly priced normal tickets. What I'm not sure there's such a demand for, is expensive half way measures like the Terrace View. Nobody is ever going to use it to take a client, and it makes an already not cheap normal match day stupidly expensive. Some people might use it for a one off treat, but I can't imagone many people doing it regularly.
The only reason I've potentially considered it is to take my Mom to a match for the first time, as it would give us a chance to get transport to and from the ground without hassle.
It doesn’t differentiate itself enough IMO. It’s not better seating wise, not better food wise and not better drinks wise. Ultimately it forces you to work out the sums and realise it’s just not good value for money. For me to pay extra, I’d want it to feel “special” in some way.
Post by: Dave P on January 02, 2024, 12:59:26 PM
There's a big market for corporate at Villa. They do it very well indeed. There's also big market for fairly priced normal tickets. What I'm not sure there's such a demand for, is expensive half way measures like the Terrace View. Nobody is ever going to use it to take a client, and it makes an already not cheap normal match day stupidly expensive. Some people might use it for a one off treat, but I can't imagone many people doing it regularly.
Correct. Corporate in the truest sense of the word is when companies buy packages to woo clients. I can imagine, in a 50-100 mile radius of VP, there are many a senior executive who knows little about football or, dare I say it, supports someone else, who would love to have a package at Villa Park.
Post by: Gareth on January 02, 2024, 01:02:20 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 02, 2024, 01:02:25 PM
Then make the North Stand 20000 beast for the normal fan. sorted !!
Post by: LeeB on January 02, 2024, 01:03:00 PM
There's a big market for corporate at Villa. They do it very well indeed. There's also big market for fairly priced normal tickets. What I'm not sure there's such a demand for, is expensive half way measures like the Terrace View. Nobody is ever going to use it to take a client, and it makes an already not cheap normal match day stupidly expensive. Some people might use it for a one off treat, but I can't imagone many people doing it regularly.
The only reason I've potentially considered it is to take my Mom to a match for the first time, as it would give us a chance to get transport to and from the ground without hassle.
It doesn’t differentiate itself enough IMO. It’s not better seating wise, not better food wise and not better drinks wise. Ultimately it forces you to work out the sums and realise it’s just not good value for money. For me to pay extra, I’d want it to feel “special” in some way.
Absolutely Frank, I would be buying it solely to have somewhere warm to sit whilst the crowds disperse.
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 02, 2024, 01:22:58 PM
The problem is, if we aren't able to get them soon then as my daughter gets older we may well drop off the list - in just a few years time she could well be at University, working away etc and will no longer want or need one For every year that passes we will lose more people on the list in that situation, and all the time our ST base is growing steadily older. Right now there is a demonstrable need to increase capacity, and we are losing out the longer it isn't addressed so the communication from Heck and the club has to improve. As someone else said, if we aren't rebuilding the North Stand then tell us what you are doing instead - alternatively we risk losing a lot of these people as potential ST holders forever.
Just as an aside, whatever happens the North Stand really can't exist in it's current form for much longer anyway. At getting on for 50 years old now it's just about the oldest part of any ground left in the current top 10 in the Premier League, so tell us how it's going to be addressed.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 02, 2024, 01:24:56 PM
Post by: hipkiss92 on January 02, 2024, 01:29:05 PM
So change the Witton Lane into totally corporate space say 5000 capacity rejig the space
Then make the North Stand 20000 beast for the normal fan. sorted !!
La Bombarena style vertical stand on Witton Lane side. Solves the space issue building over the road / towards the houses too.
Post by: LeeB on January 02, 2024, 01:31:49 PM
Post by: artvandelay on January 02, 2024, 01:45:42 PM
Post by: KevinGage on January 02, 2024, 02:05:20 PM
Just put another tier on top of the Witton made entirely of transparent perspex, thus solving the light issue for the homes in Witton.
Or instead of a retractable roof, a retractable upper tier. Push it in and out on match day.
Post by: olaftab on January 02, 2024, 02:18:23 PM
Just put another tier on top of the Witton made entirely of transparent perspex, thus solving the light issue for the homes in Witton.How about installing flood lights pointing towards back of houses in Holte Road and switched on every day from 6 till 10AM?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 02, 2024, 02:43:36 PM
Just put another tier on top of the Witton made entirely of transparent perspex, thus solving the light issue for the homes in Witton.How about installing flood lights pointing towards back of houses in Holte Road and switched on every day from 6 till 10AM?
We could just lower all the surrounding housing.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 02, 2024, 03:06:04 PM
So change the Witton Lane into totally corporate space say 5000 capacity rejig the spaceSo we'd have three sides of the ground with a supportive atmosphere and the Witton Lane side rocking to the sound of popping champagne corks. Might as well get on with flattening the North Stand.
Then make the North Stand 20000 beast for the normal fan. sorted !!
Post by: paul_e on January 02, 2024, 03:36:02 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 02, 2024, 04:22:39 PM
Whatever the thinking behind it is, we deserve to know a bit more about what the future plans are and when they are likely to happen. For all of the talk about how realistic the 30k waiting list is, my personal experience is that as a family I am the only ST holder and have been on the waiting list since it opened waiting for 2 more tickets - we would buy them tomorrow if we could (but not at the current going rate of a Lower Grounds/Terrace View GA+ package however).
The problem is, if we aren't able to get them soon then as my daughter gets older we may well drop off the list - in just a few years time she could well be at University, working away etc and will no longer want or need one For every year that passes we will lose more people on the list in that situation, and all the time our ST base is growing steadily older. Right now there is a demonstrable need to increase capacity, and we are losing out the longer it isn't addressed so the communication from Heck and the club has to improve. As someone else said, if we aren't rebuilding the North Stand then tell us what you are doing instead - alternatively we risk losing a lot of these people as potential ST holders forever.
Just as an aside, whatever happens the North Stand really can't exist in it's current form for much longer anyway. At getting on for 50 years old now it's just about the oldest part of any ground left in the current top 10 in the Premier League, so tell us how it's going to be addressed.
I agree 100%
Post by: tomd2103 on January 02, 2024, 06:31:27 PM
There's a big market for corporate at Villa. They do it very well indeed. There's also big market for fairly priced normal tickets. What I'm not sure there's such a demand for, is expensive half way measures like the Terrace View. Nobody is ever going to use it to take a client, and it makes an already not cheap normal match day stupidly expensive. Some people might use it for a one off treat, but I can't imagone many people doing it regularly.
Agree. You are paying £140 for hot dogs, burgers and chips, cheap beer and a seat at the very top of the Trinity or Holte. It's not a great deal really.
Post by: adrenachrome on January 02, 2024, 07:35:32 PM
Just put another tier on top of the Witton made entirely of transparent perspex, thus solving the light issue for the homes in Witton.How about installing flood lights pointing towards back of houses in Holte Road and switched on every day from 6 till 10AM?
We could just lower all the surrounding housing.
"It is our sad duty to inform you
Of a four foot restriction in humanoid height".
Get 'em out by Friday!
Post by: LeeB on January 02, 2024, 07:52:41 PM
Post by: The Edge on January 02, 2024, 07:57:00 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 02, 2024, 10:17:18 PM
Anyone watching the West Ham/ Brighton game? Empty seats everywhere yet they still intend to extend the capacity to over 67,000. I wonder if Heck is watching.
I doubt he watches much football.
,
If we are selling out year after year and flying up the league table, yet he cannot get the North Stand over the line then he clearly doesn't understand the sport
Post by: olaftab on January 03, 2024, 11:16:08 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 03, 2024, 12:28:52 PM
NSWE have no long term strategy here. Heck has been appointed to get the most out of what we have. Main thrust is to get on field activity right and move the team to compete at higher end, top 4 etc. Whilst that's fine I wouldn't be surprised after that if they sell out for £2B plus. That's what they do.
Normally I'd be inclined to agree, but Wes still has the basketball team and Nas, who seems more directly involved with us has no history of flipping sports clubs for a profit and frankly seems to have little incentive to do so given his wealth.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 03, 2024, 12:32:09 PM
Post by: john e on January 03, 2024, 12:36:26 PM
But then I don’t know anything about this sort of thing
Post by: Risso on January 03, 2024, 12:40:19 PM
Why would they get us into the Champions League then sell up just as the serious money starts to roll in?
I'm not saying they will, but obviously as the money starts to roll in, it starts to roll out just as quickly with increased salaries etc. A lot will depend on what the Comcast deal is predicated on, and how/when they want their pound of flesh. I can't see anything like that happening in the next 5 years personally, although the recent Heck appointment and his cost cutting isn't a great cause for optimism.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 03, 2024, 12:55:59 PM
Why would they get us into the Champions League then sell up just as the serious money starts to roll in?
I'm not saying they will, but obviously as the money starts to roll in, it starts to roll out just as quickly with increased salaries etc. A lot will depend on what the Comcast deal is predicated on, and how/when they want their pound of flesh. I can't see anything like that happening in the next 5 years personally, although the recent Heck appointment and his cost cutting isn't a great cause for optimism.
I suspect the Comcast deal is sweetened for them with the thought of some juicy management and events contracts with the stadium.
Post by: Hookeysmith on January 03, 2024, 01:45:16 PM
Just put another tier on top of the Witton made entirely of transparent perspex, thus solving the light issue for the homes in Witton.How about installing flood lights pointing towards back of houses in Holte Road and switched on every day from 6 till 10AM?
We could just lower all the surrounding housing.
"It is our sad duty to inform you
Of a four foot restriction in humanoid height".
Get 'em out by Friday!
Excellent song knowledge Sir
Post by: Villan82 on January 03, 2024, 03:00:58 PM
Why would they get us into the Champions League then sell up just as the serious money starts to roll in?
Indeed. It's just that 'pausing' the new redevelopment doesn't align with everything else they have done and doesn't exactly scream long-term commitment leaving some of us wondering what is going on
Post by: The Edge on January 03, 2024, 03:02:15 PM
Exactly.Why would they get us into the Champions League then sell up just as the serious money starts to roll in?
Indeed. It's just that 'pausing' the new redevelopment doesn't align with everything else they have done and doesn't exactly scream long-term commitment leaving some of us wondering that is going on
Post by: olaftab on January 03, 2024, 05:29:17 PM
Why would they get us into the Champions League then sell up just as the serious money starts to roll in?Because it’s the classic way to sell a business that was purchased at low diminishing value. Get the best price possible based on high future revenue potential and remove the risk attached with “relegation” from Champions League and therefore low future value and enlarged liability footprint.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 03, 2024, 05:33:20 PM
Why would they get us into the Champions League then sell up just as the serious money starts to roll in?Because it’s the classic way to sell a business that was purchased at low diminishing value. Get the best price possible based on high future revenue potential and remove the risk attached with “relegation” from Champions League and therefore low future value and enlarged liability footprint.
It isn't, but never mind.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 07:48:22 AM
Post by: jwarry on January 04, 2024, 07:58:36 AM
I don't know how much winning the Conference League benefitted West Ham but they have "effectively doubled" their income since moving the the athletics stadium (according to The Times), and are now ranked 15th in the Deloitte Money League (yuk).
Yes I saw that, and like you I’m horrified but fair play to the porn dwarves and Brady. Of course they don’t own their own stadium though
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 07:59:32 AM
I don't know how much winning the Conference League benefitted West Ham but they have "effectively doubled" their income since moving the the athletics stadium (according to The Times), and are now ranked 15th in the Deloitte Money League (yuk).To me, not pressing ahead with the NS redevelopment is a retrograde, short-termism step that'll hold the club back.
Then I'm seeing the kerfuffle over what I really hope isn't the new badge on another thread, along with the cheap arsed offering that is the Lower Grounds and I'm just astounded that at a time when things seem to be so good on the pitch that the other stuff seems so... out of kilter.
We've established that Heck has cancelled or in part been behind the NS retention and scrapping of the perfectly good round badge. Do we know for a fact he was the cause of the LG and TV? I can't help thinking those latter two were Purslow babies.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 04, 2024, 08:06:14 AM
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the the 2 announcements (Comcast and North Stand) came at virtually the same time.
It will not be lost on them that only one club between the North West and London has the opportunity to become a super club.
Which in turn leads me to believe that our days at Villa Park are numbered.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 08:06:27 AM
I don't know how much winning the Conference League benefitted West Ham but they have "effectively doubled" their income since moving the the athletics stadium (according to The Times), and are now ranked 15th in the Deloitte Money League (yuk).
It's about £15m in prize money, plus extra matchday revenue from the home games, plus any extra commercial income from sponsorship deals if they have success clauses.
This is why we will prioritise the conference league over the League Cup and FA Cup, winning both of which would net us about £3-4m combined in prize money.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 08:16:18 AM
The Comcast deal is significant and would point towards future investment alongside increased ownership.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the the 2 announcements (Comcast and North Stand) came at virtually the same time.
It will not be lost on them that only one club outside the North West and London has the opportunity to become a super club.
Which in turn leads me to believe that our days at Villa Park are numbered.
Looking at it objectively, the Comcast stuff makes no real sense unless there is some ground "improvement", and certainly not squeezing in 2k seats somewhere.
And the key for the owners is probably attracting floating fans, which is a tricky thing to do with the facilities as they are.
Post by: cdward on January 04, 2024, 08:25:54 AM
https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/sports-business-group/articles/deloitte-football-money-league.html
They highlight Arsenal moving in to the top 10 due to their increased matchday revenue from their stadium, and also reference other clubs (Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, the Milan clubs and Everton) investing heavily in new stadiums to future-proof their businesses. Add in West Ham, and it is clear that VP will have to expand (or move) at some point in the future.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 08:32:17 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/Ct4J2SX/image.png) (https://ibb.co/Ct4J2SX)
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 08:55:36 AM
Wolves obviously did a brilliant job of adding extra seats in the corner. This type of quality would seem to be Heck's style and would go well with the unlimited hotdogs available in our new premium offering.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ct4J2SX/image.png) (https://ibb.co/Ct4J2SX)
The level of what is an acceptable vantage point at a ground that used to have stands in different post codes differs somewhat from Villa Park
Post by: Villan82 on January 04, 2024, 08:56:48 AM
I don't care about Heck's reputation in American football, I only care about how things are going at Villa
I still fail to see what was wrong with this vision for Villa Park:
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 09:05:19 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 09:10:35 AM
Unless they sort the ground out our ability to invest on the pitch will be at significant disadvantage to our peers, and the longer they leave it the greater the gap grows.
Completely agree.
Which is why I think the North Stand has been kiboshed. I think they realise that they could end up chucking a lot of money on the other three stands and still not be as competitive as a new-build stadium. So if you may have to rebuild, why chuck £100m+ at a new stand right now?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 04, 2024, 09:13:05 AM
Unless they sort the ground out our ability to invest on the pitch will be at significant disadvantage to our peers, and the longer they leave it the greater the gap grows.
Completely agree.
Which is why I think the North Stand has been kiboshed. I think they realise that they could end up chucking a lot of money on the other three stands and still not be as competitive as a new-build stadium. So if you may have to rebuild, why chuck £100m+ at a new stand right now?
The thought of playing in something like West Ham now play in disturbs me greatly
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 09:14:18 AM
Unless they sort the ground out our ability to invest on the pitch will be at significant disadvantage to our peers, and the longer they leave it the greater the gap grows.
Completely agree.
Which is why I think the North Stand has been kiboshed. I think they realise that they could end up chucking a lot of money on the other three stands and still not be as competitive as a new-build stadium. So if you may have to rebuild, why chuck £100m+ at a new stand right now?
The thought of playing in something like West Ham now play in disturbs me greatly
That was built for something else though not for football.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 09:14:29 AM
Unless they sort the ground out our ability to invest on the pitch will be at significant disadvantage to our peers, and the longer they leave it the greater the gap grows.
Completely agree.
Which is why I think the North Stand has been kiboshed. I think they realise that they could end up chucking a lot of money on the other three stands and still not be as competitive as a new-build stadium. So if you may have to rebuild, why chuck £100m+ at a new stand right now?
The thought of playing in something like West Ham now play in disturbs me greatly
Tottenham's ground is great supposedly...
Post by: Villan82 on January 04, 2024, 09:15:15 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 09:16:15 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 09:18:22 AM
It's just about return on investment and they now don't think there's enough demand for GA+ tickets, which would have been a major part of the North Stand offering. This was never about 7,000 more tickets at 45 quid.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 09:18:45 AM
I guess they went against fans on the crest they can go against us on our wish to be at Villa Park. That's the soul of the club there.
Maybe the choice is a stark one - move and grow or stay where we are and move further behind.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 09:19:18 AM
I genuinely don't think they're looking at a relocation.
It's just about return on investment and they now don't think there's enough demand for GA+ tickets, which would have been a major part of the North Stand offering. This was never about 7,000 more tickets at 45 quid.
I don't think so either, I think we will stay put and rebuild.
Post by: Villan82 on January 04, 2024, 09:21:24 AM
I guess they went against fans on the crest they can go against us on our wish to be at Villa Park. That's the soul of the club there.
Maybe the choice is a stark one - move and grow or stay where we are and move further behind.
What the video I posted. If we can't achieve our dreams at the present location we aren't achieving them anywhere else.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 09:26:58 AM
I guess they went against fans on the crest they can go against us on our wish to be at Villa Park. That's the soul of the club there.
What the video I posted. If we can't achieve our dreams at the present location we aren't achieving them anywhere else.
That would be great, but maybe the costs of rebuilding Villa Park are significantly more than starting a build somewhere else?
And I Know they have said there are no current plans etc, but they have said plenty of things recently....
Post by: DB on January 04, 2024, 09:45:27 AM
Comcast have obvs come in and want to do a new feasibility study and plan of the stadium as part of the deal. I don't think anything is off the table.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 09:47:32 AM
The video you posted was our actual plans before Villa Live got scaled back. An excellent stand, but only takes us to 50k seats and still with 3 stands with facilities ranging from entirely unacceptable to adequate.I guess they went against fans on the crest they can go against us on our wish to be at Villa Park. That's the soul of the club there.
Maybe the choice is a stark one - move and grow or stay where we are and move further behind.
What the video I posted. If we can't achieve our dreams at the present location we aren't achieving them anywhere else.
I'm not advocating for a relocation, but it's a stretch to suggest we can get an ideal solution where we are.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 04, 2024, 10:08:41 AM
Build a new ground if you want but don’t move location please. As someone said on here recently, I’d rather sit in traffic for an hour, knowing that I was going to see us at Villa Park, than get easily into some venue that has no historical relevance to Villa.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 10:09:10 AM
Post by: Gareth on January 04, 2024, 10:41:09 AM
We aren’t fans or supporters to the likes of Heck, we are nothing more than consumers and all they will want is a bum on a seat, matters not if it’s someone who has been going 50 years or if it’s someone first game.
I also wonder if the new TV deal might have something to do with the decision, should we maintain or position as a side in European competition a lot more of our games will be on Sundays which Sky will show all Sunday games live….this may satisfy some of those on the list. Or the club might think that.
I would have been happier if they had said we are putting the development on hold for 12 months whilst significant analysis on the waiting list is carried out, by this I mean speaking to everyone on the list and doing some research to understand the likelihood that each person would purchase if offered a season ticket, where they would want to sit and what they would pay. Would also be interested in how many season tickets were made available last summer to the waiting list and how many purchased/ deferred/rejected the offer. Still think there are a lot of people on that list who are essentially blocking those (a number of who are on here) who are desperate to get tickets.
I am pleased for those in the North who will be able to retain their seats and those they sit with for a while longer, I would presume a lot have had their seats for a number of years through a lot of the dross so good they can enjoy the current stuff together.
Hope the end game is still to rebuild that stand but hope the final one is more ambitious than the one proposed and that it is built in a way that doesn’t boot everyone out for a couple of seasons.
Also hope they follow through on the commitment to improve facilities around the ground, hopefully they’ll remember that the ground extends beyond the hospitality areas and the rest of us need proper toilets, decent catering facilities and decent standards of staff to dispense that catering.
Post by: London Villan on January 04, 2024, 10:41:13 AM
The 2k-3k added seats is just a stop gap
Comcast have obvs come in and want to do a new feasibility study and plan of the stadium as part of the deal. I don't think anything is off the table.
Which would be fine and understandable - just tell the fans and be honest about the process.
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 10:45:06 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 04, 2024, 10:51:57 AM
If you like sanitised utilitarian space with no atmosphere then great, but at least it is built close to WHLUnless they sort the ground out our ability to invest on the pitch will be at significant disadvantage to our peers, and the longer they leave it the greater the gap grows.
Completely agree.
Which is why I think the North Stand has been kiboshed. I think they realise that they could end up chucking a lot of money on the other three stands and still not be as competitive as a new-build stadium. So if you may have to rebuild, why chuck £100m+ at a new stand right now?
The thought of playing in something like West Ham now play in disturbs me greatly
Tottenham's ground is great supposedly...
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 10:54:37 AM
I find the additional layer of corporate that hangs back in the lower tier a bit of an odd choice, as presumably its not a great deal of fun sipping Pimms behind an away end going full limbs when Watkins scores.
The concourse is good, facilities good, sight lines good, everything about it is impressive. By far and away the best of the new grounds.
And now I feel filthy for having admitted it.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 11:09:52 AM
Spurs ground is a great stadium. Proper on top of the pitch, with a huge end that would belt out some noise if they weren't regularly getting turned over by us down there.
I find the additional layer of corporate that hangs back in the lower tier a bit of an odd choice, as presumably its not a great deal of fun sipping Pimms behind an away end going full limbs when Watkins scores.
The concourse is good, facilities good, sight lines good, everything about it is impressive. By far and away the best of the new grounds.
And now I feel filthy for having admitted it.
I agree on all points, in particular the weird 'Club Wembley' tier of corporate you mention, I was on the back row last game and there's no way I'd want to see my mug or hear my thoughts on Spurs' 'title challenge' if I'd paid that much.
But other than that it's spot on, and I've enjoyed the corporate hospitality there too.
The numbers they are doing in comparison to the old ground are mind blowing and shows where the future lies I'm afraid. I'm all for staying on emotional grounds but it's impractical, if we had a stadium up the road we could use whilst we knocked it down and rebuilt then great, but we haven't so a new site is probably the only way forward unless we get hold of Aston Park.
I think the pause in works is to properly explore these options, potential sites, land deals etc.
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 11:12:37 AM
New ground and whether it's a rebuild where we are or somewhere else, I think that's the plan.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 11:17:34 AM
I agree. A New North solves none of the issues which will make is deficient compared to Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Liverpool, Everton etc.
New ground and whether it's a rebuild where we are or somewhere else, I think that's the plan.
I agree - I think it will be somewhere else to enable us to continue playing at VP until the new one is ready with a few extra seats squeezed into VP somewhere.
I wonder if the new hospitability is there to gauge how much demand their is so that any new build is designed appropriately?
Post by: PeterWithe on January 04, 2024, 11:18:55 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I was under the impression that HS2 was coming into Curzon Street in a tunnel from approx Caste Vale, which would have made the land above it useable and in need of development. But the plans I could find didn't confirm that, it looked as though it was at ground level. Its also some way away from completion obviously.
So in short, I don't know. Glad to have helped.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 11:22:54 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I was under the impression that HS2 was coming into Curzon Street in a tunnel from approx Caste Vale, which would have made the land above it useable and in need of development. But the plans I could find didn't confirm that, it looked as though it was at ground level. Its also some way away from completion obviously.
So in short, I don't know. Glad to have helped.
I've no idea either really but vaguely thought that tunnel would start around the old DAF site, and that site itself could be a potential location.
Post by: LeeS on January 04, 2024, 11:27:27 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I'd be looking at all that industrial land off Newtown Row, Summer Lane etc. Spurs built their stadium on similar (not on the footprint of WHL). Pay the cash and people in warehouses and scrap yards will move out. Its walking distance from town, on the tram line and would attract more of the city corporate types.
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 11:28:16 AM
Post by: frank black on January 04, 2024, 11:29:31 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I'd be looking at all that industrial land off Newtown Row, Summer Lane etc. Spurs built their stadium on similar (not on the footprint of WHL). Pay the cash and people in warehouses and scrap yards will move out. Its walking distance from town, on the tram line and would attract more of the city corporate types.
It’ll also result in more fans drinking and eating elsewhere. They’ll want us somewhere more inconvenient
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 04, 2024, 11:31:38 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I'd be looking at all that industrial land off Newtown Row, Summer Lane etc. Spurs built their stadium on similar (not on the footprint of WHL). Pay the cash and people in warehouses and scrap yards will move out. Its walking distance from town, on the tram line and would attract more of the city corporate types.
It’ll also result in more fans drinking and eating elsewhere. They’ll want us somewhere more inconvenient
This is absolutely true. Capitalism, ladies and gents.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 11:32:02 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I'd be looking at all that industrial land off Newtown Row, Summer Lane etc. Spurs built their stadium on similar (not on the footprint of WHL). Pay the cash and people in warehouses and scrap yards will move out. Its walking distance from town, on the tram line and would attract more of the city corporate types.
It’ll also result in more fans drinking and eating elsewhere. They’ll want us somewhere more inconvenient
I am sure not everyone would hang about, but if the offerings at the new place were decent I am sure plenty would hang around for an hour or two until the rush has subsided.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 11:33:24 AM
A city centre ground would be the beans for a multitude of reasons. None more so than the absolute pettiness of how upset it would make about 23,000 residents of Birmingham/Solihull.
Come on mate, why put a ground where none of us drink?
Post by: London Villan on January 04, 2024, 11:35:08 AM
Looking to sustain the club into the next 150 years - competing with the best on and off the pitch - exploring every option to give the most fans access to the best facilities, but also generate the income we need to generate to compete....yadda yadda
Post by: algy on January 04, 2024, 11:43:59 AM
You'd also say that it's much better if they're touting for business elsewhere - e.g. as a place for stadium gigs, sports events, etc you'd have pretty much the most easily accessible large venue in the country, with very little local competition as a venue of it's size. The new ground could quite reasonably aim to be in use several days a week, every week.Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I'd be looking at all that industrial land off Newtown Row, Summer Lane etc. Spurs built their stadium on similar (not on the footprint of WHL). Pay the cash and people in warehouses and scrap yards will move out. Its walking distance from town, on the tram line and would attract more of the city corporate types.
It’ll also result in more fans drinking and eating elsewhere. They’ll want us somewhere more inconvenient
I am sure not everyone would hang about, but if the offerings at the new place were decent I am sure plenty would hang around for an hour or two until the rush has subsided.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 11:48:18 AM
It's a bloody nightmare on a Saturday as it is, in the era of declining footfall in the high street, without chucking another 60,000 people in there.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 04, 2024, 11:50:16 AM
Is there any spare land near Curzon Street? I am sure this has been asked and answered before...?
I was under the impression that HS2 was coming into Curzon Street in a tunnel from approx Caste Vale, which would have made the land above it useable and in need of development. But the plans I could find didn't confirm that, it looked as though it was at ground level. Its also some way away from completion obviously.
So in short, I don't know. Glad to have helped.
I've no idea either really but vaguely thought that tunnel would start around the old DAF site, and that site itself could be a potential location.
Yeah, we must have seen the same initial plans, to the left of the Fort Shopping thing.
Post by: LeeS on January 04, 2024, 11:55:12 AM
My problem with a city centre ground is that it must be proposed by people that don't actually travel to the city centre very much.
It's a bloody nightmare on a Saturday as it is, in the era of declining footfall in the high street, without chucking another 60,000 people in there.
Thats true of me. I can only have set foot in Birmingham City Centre about 5 times in ten years. And not on a Saturday.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 04, 2024, 11:57:28 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 11:58:41 AM
I agree. A New North solves none of the issues which will make is deficient compared to Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Liverpool, Everton etc.
New ground and whether it's a rebuild where we are or somewhere else, I think that's the plan.
I agree - I think it will be somewhere else to enable us to continue playing at VP until the new one is ready with a few extra seats squeezed into VP somewhere.
I wonder if the new hospitability is there to gauge how much demand their is so that any new build is designed appropriately?
I suspect trying to do things like the Lower Grounds has helped them reach the decision. They are seeing just how hard it's going to be to shoehorn these premium experiences into the existing ground, especially without alienating existing fans.
Post by: Villan82 on January 04, 2024, 12:02:22 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 12:05:16 PM
All this could have been tied into the 150-year anniversary and created a positive angle.
Looking to sustain the club into the next 150 years - competing with the best on and off the pitch - exploring every option to give the most fans access to the best facilities, but also generate the income we need to generate to compete....yadda yadda
The problem is that all of this takes a huge amount of time and consultation. You can't to anything unless you are confident you can access up to £1bn in funding for it, so the Comcast deal might have been the first domino. Once that was in place it became feasible, so the North Stand is put on hold.
But there would still be a huge amount of work to do before a real decision is made against all the options, and like a lot of businesses, you don't really want to be doing all this in public. There's too much up in the air to be announcing things yet, except the bare minimum they can get away with to explain why they're not going ahead with the previous plans.
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 12:06:23 PM
I'd have liked a new North as I'm sick of looking at the old one. I'd like a new ground even more.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 12:07:31 PM
I wouldn't want to leave Villa Park for any old spot, but a city centre ground would be great. I'm looking forward to Everton next season with a view to an enjoyable pre-match routine. Newcastle is similar.
I'd have liked a new North as I'm sick of looking at the old one. I'd like a new ground even more.
Everton's is now the season after, I believe.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 12:09:26 PM
I wouldn't want to leave Villa Park for any old spot, but a city centre ground would be great. I'm looking forward to Everton next season with a view to an enjoyable pre-match routine. Newcastle is similar.
I'd have liked a new North as I'm sick of looking at the old one. I'd like a new ground even more.
Move your tickets to the North Stand, there were three empty in the row in front last match, problem solved!
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 12:42:29 PM
I agree. A New North solves none of the issues which will make is deficient compared to Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Liverpool, Everton etc.
New ground and whether it's a rebuild where we are or somewhere else, I think that's the plan.
I agree - I think it will be somewhere else to enable us to continue playing at VP until the new one is ready with a few extra seats squeezed into VP somewhere.
I wonder if the new hospitability is there to gauge how much demand their is so that any new build is designed appropriately?
I suspect trying to do things like the Lower Grounds has helped them reach the decision. They are seeing just how hard it's going to be to shoehorn these premium experiences into the existing ground, especially without alienating existing fans.
From what I've read about the Lower Grounds, I don't see how it could remotely be described as corporate. The fact its bench seating in there (honestly, my work place canteen looks more plush, tbh) and the food options sound on a par with mostly what is available to buy elsewhere for those with regular tickets.
If the environment was more like a lounge, better food and drink options, and with the explayer Q&A sessions it might seem like part way to corporate. It could even, if done right, tempt a few people to try full fat corporate once in a while when it becomes available. But instead it just looks like it's been done on the cheap. Throw it up fast with minimal initial outlay.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 12:47:55 PM
I agree. A New North solves none of the issues which will make is deficient compared to Arsenal, Spurs, Man City, Liverpool, Everton etc.
New ground and whether it's a rebuild where we are or somewhere else, I think that's the plan.
I agree - I think it will be somewhere else to enable us to continue playing at VP until the new one is ready with a few extra seats squeezed into VP somewhere.
I wonder if the new hospitability is there to gauge how much demand their is so that any new build is designed appropriately?
I suspect trying to do things like the Lower Grounds has helped them reach the decision. They are seeing just how hard it's going to be to shoehorn these premium experiences into the existing ground, especially without alienating existing fans.
From what I've read about the Lower Grounds, I don't see how it could remotely be described as corporate. The fact its bench seating in there (honestly, my work place canteen looks more plush, tbh) and the food options sound on a par with mostly what is available to buy elsewhere for those with regular tickets.
If the environment was more like a lounge, better food and drink options, and with the explayer Q&A sessions it might seem like part way to corporate. It could even, if done right, tempt a few people to try full fat corporate once in a while when it becomes available. But instead it just looks like it's been done on the cheap. Throw it up fast with minimal initial outlay.
Whether it's called corporate or not, the important thing for the club is giving people a reason to pay more for a seat. It's £120 a seat for that, rather than £48-63 is it?
This is what they want to do more of, giving fans options to give them more money to see the game.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 12:48:31 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 12:54:24 PM
It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.That's a fair point, but at the same time they must've realised the depth of feeling against doing something that could be perceived as corporate/light-corporate on the Holte. Not to mention what looks like a shambolic execution of it.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 12:58:43 PM
I honestly think this aspect simply passed Purslow by. You would think they understand it now but I'm convinced they still don't get it.It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.That's a fair point, but at the same time they must've realised the depth of feeling against doing something that could be perceived as corporate/light-corporate on the Holte. Not to mention what looks like a shambolic execution of it.
Post by: paul_e on January 04, 2024, 12:59:00 PM
It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.
I think that would be very short sighted if true and I refuse to believe the people behind this would be so easily spooked. TV and LG is taking existing seats, adding stuff on that takes away from the rest of the fans and selling it as a package, a big part of the slow uptake is protest at them doing it as much as anything else. On top of that the announcement about the north stand was made after 8 games with TV and 4 or 5 with LG (I think), you wouldn't change a long-term strategy on the basis of such a small sample size, especially when the next 2 (Sheff U and Burnley) being over Christmas were likely to be the biggest uptake so far.
Much more likely is, as others have said, the Comcast investment means we're looking at a much bigger project.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 01:03:05 PM
Non of this signals bigger. It all signals cuts.
Post by: villa_cads on January 04, 2024, 01:03:43 PM
Seems to me that it's an exercise to see the going rate if they constrict supply of GA, especially give the location of the seats (lower/lowest end of the GA price range). Do they have an upper limit on the number for these tickets? Would have thought the capacity of the Holte Suite / Terrace View.It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.That's a fair point, but at the same time they must've realised the depth of feeling against doing something that could be perceived as corporate/light-corporate on the Holte. Not to mention what looks like a shambolic execution of it.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 01:05:12 PM
TV is 1,000 max. Not sure about LG - is it 600?Seems to me that it's an exercise to see the going rate if they constrict supply of GA, especially give the location of the seats (lower/lowest end of the GA price range). Do they have an upper limit on the number for these tickets? Would have thought the capacity of the Holte Suite / Terrace View.It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.That's a fair point, but at the same time they must've realised the depth of feeling against doing something that could be perceived as corporate/light-corporate on the Holte. Not to mention what looks like a shambolic execution of it.
Post by: Dave P on January 04, 2024, 01:12:08 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 04, 2024, 01:17:43 PM
Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
Remember, season tickets are capped at 25k I think.
Ricoh holds 32,609.
Molineux has 31,750.
I'd personally prefer the Ricoh, but it would be funny to make Wolves fans share their ground with us while we get an upgrade they can only dream about.
Post by: itbrvilla on January 04, 2024, 01:20:27 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 04, 2024, 01:24:52 PM
Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
I was thinking about this. I know it'd be really shit for all concerned, but we might need to relocate to London for a couple of years. There's really nothing even vaguely local that will suffice.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 01:28:18 PM
I think it would be the Ricoh. It has private owners I think so I'd presume they would be keen.Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
I was thinking about this. I know it'd be really shit for all concerned, but we might need to relocate to London for a couple of years. There's really nothing even vaguely local that will suffice.
I don't think you'd get more than 30k going to London every other week, so there wouldn't be massive capacity benefits in a London ground share.
But we're not redeveloping.
Post by: Villan82 on January 04, 2024, 01:38:34 PM
Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
I was thinking about this. I know it'd be really shit for all concerned, but we might need to relocate to London for a couple of years. There's really nothing even vaguely local that will suffice.
Or, I don't know, we could just do as we intended and play at a 36,000 capacity Villa Park until we get to 50,000 and then whenever we do the Witton we could just play at a 41,000 Villa Park until that's ready.
Honestly! Playing at the Wolves or the Coventry! We had a good plan I cannot understand how any alternative works.
Post by: Risso on January 04, 2024, 01:38:47 PM
Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
I was thinking about this. I know it'd be really shit for all concerned, but we might need to relocate to London for a couple of years. There's really nothing even vaguely local that will suffice.
That would never happen. Biggest local grounds are the Dogheads or Leicester at 32,000, which would at least accommodate all of our season ticket holders. The King Power will be 40,000 when they've finished the expansion. London is a two and a half dour drive with no traffic, which would easily become three hours plus if you factor in parking and getting to which ever ground it was. Trains wouldn't have the capacity or reliability at weekends to ship that many people down.
Before they plumped for Wembley, Spurs were considering using Milton Keynes which holds 31,000.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 04, 2024, 01:39:00 PM
Then some tweaks, ie removing Villa Live. Then, one imagines, plenty of back and forth re the station improvements.
Then, a massive company with huge experience of media and stadiums / sports organisations becomes part owner of V Sports, in a move which the club described as about 'improving' infrastructure, AND IN THE VERY SAME WEEK Heck tells us that the North Stand rebuild is effectively cancelled.
I know they've said we're not moving etc etc but, tbh, I am now at the point where I don't trust much that Chris Heck says, and what's more, if we were considering moving or a new stadium - does anyone think they'd actually tell us that right now?
No, they'll say whatever they need to say to close the subject down so it doesn't become a distraction.
I mean, look at the utter, utter bullshit about collaboration with fans on this new badge, then the rubbish about binning the old new one after a year.
It's fundamentally untrue, so not sure why they'd tell us the truth about this.
Post by: exigo on January 04, 2024, 01:39:11 PM
I reckon the plan is for us to rebuild on the VP site, potentially trying to nudge the footprint towards the north if they can buy up the houses on Nelson Road. It then would be a Spurs approach, where that new ground starts while the old one is still in use – might even be half a season where we play at VP with 3 stands, before taking up a ground move while they finish the rest.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 04, 2024, 01:40:20 PM
Alexander stadium temporary seating took it to 40k capacity during the games. Even putting in temp seating squared off to the pitch would be 35k comfortably.
It's one thing having temporary seating with no cover against the elements, and full of people just sat around passively watching the athletics, but another entirely for something used for football, during winter.
Post by: Villan82 on January 04, 2024, 01:44:05 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on January 04, 2024, 01:44:46 PM
If we were looking at scaling up not down they wouldn't be talking about there being 200 unsold seats, acknowledging that the waiting list is a bit of a farce (with most on it not having bought a ticket for 3 years plus) and spending the money on upgrading existing stands to try to squeeze in a few more seats.
Non of this signals bigger. It all signals cuts.
Someone pointed out that, if you didn't want start a discussion on what the real plans were, but wanted to cancel the NS development immediately, then the 200 unsold tickets is a simple excuse close at hand. It doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny, but it doesn't have to, because in the grand scheme of things, a few hundred people on here dont matter.
Post by: aev on January 04, 2024, 01:58:03 PM
If we were looking at scaling up not down they wouldn't be talking about there being 200 unsold seats, acknowledging that the waiting list is a bit of a farce (with most on it not having bought a ticket for 3 years plus) and spending the money on upgrading existing stands to try to squeeze in a few more seats.
Non of this signals bigger. It all signals cuts.
Someone pointed out that, if you didn't want start a discussion on what the real plans were, but wanted to cancel the NS development immediately, then the 200 unsold tickets is a simple excuse close at hand. It doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny, but it doesn't have to, because in the grand scheme of things, a few hundred people on here dont matter.
Fans probably just suck it all up, inelasticity of demand and all that.
Potential customers however would probably prefer an honest and coherent message.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 02:01:44 PM
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 02:21:18 PM
All that time, effort and money to plan and submit for approval the new North Stand.
Then some tweaks, ie removing Villa Live. Then, one imagines, plenty of back and forth re the station improvements.
Then, a massive company with huge experience of media and stadiums / sports organisations becomes part owner of V Sports, in a move which the club described as about 'improving' infrastructure, AND IN THE VERY SAME WEEK Heck tells us that the North Stand rebuild is effectively cancelled.
I know they've said we're not moving etc etc but, tbh, I am now at the point where I don't trust much that Chris Heck says, and what's more, if we were considering moving or a new stadium - does anyone think they'd actually tell us that right now?
No, they'll say whatever they need to say to close the subject down so it doesn't become a distraction.
I mean, look at the utter, utter bullshit about collaboration with fans on this new badge, then the rubbish about binning the old new one after a year.
It's fundamentally untrue, so not sure why they'd tell us the truth about this.
Absolutely. No such thing as coincidences. It's a new build, whether on site or somewhere else in the city centre.
Saying we're not moving today means nothing for tomorrow when we might be. We had funding in place to rebuild the North. Why on earth would you need another £6bn fund unless you were going to go bigger? And why spend £100m to still be left behind by the inadequacies inherent to Villa Park.
New build all the live long day.
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 02:22:34 PM
If we were looking at scaling up not down they wouldn't be talking about there being 200 unsold seats, acknowledging that the waiting list is a bit of a farce (with most on it not having bought a ticket for 3 years plus) and spending the money on upgrading existing stands to try to squeeze in a few more seats.
Non of this signals bigger. It all signals cuts.
Someone pointed out that, if you didn't want start a discussion on what the real plans were, but wanted to cancel the NS development immediately, then the 200 unsold tickets is a simple excuse close at hand. It doesn't stand up to too much scrutiny, but it doesn't have to, because in the grand scheme of things, a few hundred people on here dont matter.
T'was I.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 02:26:48 PM
Post by: eamonn on January 04, 2024, 03:07:22 PM
Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
I was thinking about this. I know it'd be really shit for all concerned, but we might need to relocate to London for a couple of years. There's really nothing even vaguely local that will suffice.
That would never happen. Biggest local grounds are the Dogheads or Leicester at 32,000, which would at least accommodate all of our season ticket holders. The King Power will be 40,000 when they've finished the expansion. London is a two and a half dour drive with no traffic, which would easily become three hours plus if you factor in parking and getting to which ever ground it was. Trains wouldn't have the capacity or reliability at weekends to ship that many people down.
Before they plumped for Wembley, Spurs were considering using Milton Keynes which holds 31,000.
I think Sexual was being his playful self.
Post by: eamonn on January 04, 2024, 03:09:20 PM
It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.
I keep seeing you use GA - does that mean General Admission (non-season ticket holders)? And what's GA+ ?! I also keep thinking TV is referring to Toronto Villan and LG is Louis van Gaal. 2024 feels like it'll be a tough year for me.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 03:17:33 PM
General Admission, for a seat, use of concourse facilities whether a season ticket or buying game to game.It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.
I keep seeing you use GA - does that mean General Admission (non-season ticket holders)? And what's GA+ ?! I also keep thinking TV is referring to Toronto Villan and LG is Louis van Gaal. 2024 feels like it'll be a tough year for me.
GA+ is Lower Grounds/ Terrace View.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 04, 2024, 03:17:41 PM
It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.
I keep seeing you use GA - does that mean General Admission (non-season ticket holders)? And what's GA+ ?! I also keep thinking TV is referring to Toronto Villan and LG is Louis van Gaal. 2024 feels like it'll be a tough year for me.
Ah, see I didn't know that, I thought Id missed another name change to a suite at the ground
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 03:18:16 PM
It's the terminology Villa originally used. (General admission plus). I presume it's an Americanism. Either way, it's clearly just premium add-ons for people in general seating as opposed to corporate boxes etc.It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.
I keep seeing you use GA - does that mean General Admission (non-season ticket holders)? And what's GA+ ?! I also keep thinking TV is referring to Toronto Villan and LG is Louis van Gaal. 2024 feels like it'll be a tough year for me.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 04, 2024, 03:18:40 PM
Building a brand new ground at Villa Park means we'd have a long period where we wont have anywhere to play. Spurs had Wembley, where would we go?
I was thinking about this. I know it'd be really shit for all concerned, but we might need to relocate to London for a couple of years. There's really nothing even vaguely local that will suffice.
That would never happen. Biggest local grounds are the Dogheads or Leicester at 32,000, which would at least accommodate all of our season ticket holders. The King Power will be 40,000 when they've finished the expansion. London is a two and a half dour drive with no traffic, which would easily become three hours plus if you factor in parking and getting to which ever ground it was. Trains wouldn't have the capacity or reliability at weekends to ship that many people down.
Before they plumped for Wembley, Spurs were considering using Milton Keynes which holds 31,000.
I think Sexual was being his playful self.
If this is about me getting caught wanking by my wife, I think it's unfair.
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 03:20:27 PM
It's not necessarily about corporate it's about GA+. I believe the intention was for there to be a significant amount of GA+ seats in the new North. I honestly think the take-up and attitude towards TV and LG has spooked them.
I keep seeing you use GA - does that mean General Admission (non-season ticket holders)? And what's GA+ ?! I also keep thinking TV is referring to Toronto Villan and LG is Louis van Gaal. 2024 feels like it'll be a tough year for me.
Ah, see I didn't know that, I thought Id missed another name change to a suite at the ground
I thought this was some extra corporate thing including Groove Armada, where for only £50 pp you could listen to Hollyoaks-house whilst stuffing your face.
Post by: VillaTim on January 04, 2024, 03:24:21 PM
Post by: paul_e on January 04, 2024, 04:22:21 PM
All that time, effort and money to plan and submit for approval the new North Stand.
Then some tweaks, ie removing Villa Live. Then, one imagines, plenty of back and forth re the station improvements.
Then, a massive company with huge experience of media and stadiums / sports organisations becomes part owner of V Sports, in a move which the club described as about 'improving' infrastructure, AND IN THE VERY SAME WEEK Heck tells us that the North Stand rebuild is effectively cancelled.
I know they've said we're not moving etc etc but, tbh, I am now at the point where I don't trust much that Chris Heck says, and what's more, if we were considering moving or a new stadium - does anyone think they'd actually tell us that right now?
No, they'll say whatever they need to say to close the subject down so it doesn't become a distraction.
I mean, look at the utter, utter bullshit about collaboration with fans on this new badge, then the rubbish about binning the old new one after a year.
It's fundamentally untrue, so not sure why they'd tell us the truth about this.
Absolutely. No such thing as coincidences. It's a new build, whether on site or somewhere else in the city centre.
Saying we're not moving today means nothing for tomorrow when we might be. We had funding in place to rebuild the North. Why on earth would you need another £6bn fund unless you were going to go bigger? And why spend £100m to still be left behind by the inadequacies inherent to Villa Park.
New build all the live long day.
Yep, agreed.
Even when the initial plans were announced it was always termed as a phased upgrade to the whole ground (and 60k kicked about as the final result). I suspect they want to look at the options on whether doing it all at once is a better idea. When the Comcast partnership was announced one thing I mentioned was that it added expertise/knowledge that we might not have and by that I meant in building and maintaining stadiums. I get that right now everyone hates Heck and therefore want to assume that everything he's involved with is shit but we need to be careful not to get carried away with that.
I'd be amazed if they aren't, right now, working out the cost to develop on site and move us somewhere else for a year or 2 versus the cost to build a new stadium elsewhere. Either requires the purchase of a bunch of land/houses/etc though so I doubt we'd be starting the work for a while (2028 if we stay on site, a little sooner if we move), which is why we're getting the extra seats from reconfiguration and I suspect they'll tack on some facility improvements as well, all for a fraction of the cost the new stand would've been. If it is this I doubt we'll hear anything about it officially until next year at the earliest.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 04, 2024, 05:50:32 PM
All that time, effort and money to plan and submit for approval the new North Stand.
Then some tweaks, ie removing Villa Live. Then, one imagines, plenty of back and forth re the station improvements.
Then, a massive company with huge experience of media and stadiums / sports organisations becomes part owner of V Sports, in a move which the club described as about 'improving' infrastructure, AND IN THE VERY SAME WEEK Heck tells us that the North Stand rebuild is effectively cancelled.
I know they've said we're not moving etc etc but, tbh, I am now at the point where I don't trust much that Chris Heck says, and what's more, if we were considering moving or a new stadium - does anyone think they'd actually tell us that right now?
No, they'll say whatever they need to say to close the subject down so it doesn't become a distraction.
I mean, look at the utter, utter bullshit about collaboration with fans on this new badge, then the rubbish about binning the old new one after a year.
It's fundamentally untrue, so not sure why they'd tell us the truth about this.
Absolutely. No such thing as coincidences. It's a new build, whether on site or somewhere else in the city centre.
Saying we're not moving today means nothing for tomorrow when we might be. We had funding in place to rebuild the North. Why on earth would you need another £6bn fund unless you were going to go bigger? And why spend £100m to still be left behind by the inadequacies inherent to Villa Park.
New build all the live long day.
What’s this £6b fund?
Post by: LeeB on January 04, 2024, 05:53:08 PM
Post by: Ads on January 04, 2024, 06:02:19 PM
Post by: jon collett on January 04, 2024, 06:28:50 PM
. Either requires the purchase of a bunch of land/houses/etc though so I doubt we'd be starting the work for a while (2028 if we stay on site, a little sooner if we move), which is why we're getting the extra seats from reconfiguration and I suspect they'll tack on some facility improvements as well, all for a fraction of the cost the new stand would've been. If it is this I doubt we'll hear anything about it officially until next year at the earliest.
From What I can see reconfiguration can only happen if we take the roof, truss and goalposts off the North Stand which would be quite a major project.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 04, 2024, 06:38:19 PM
Post by: exigo on January 04, 2024, 07:07:45 PM
All that time, effort and money to plan and submit for approval the new North Stand.
Then some tweaks, ie removing Villa Live. Then, one imagines, plenty of back and forth re the station improvements.
Then, a massive company with huge experience of media and stadiums / sports organisations becomes part owner of V Sports, in a move which the club described as about 'improving' infrastructure, AND IN THE VERY SAME WEEK Heck tells us that the North Stand rebuild is effectively cancelled.
I know they've said we're not moving etc etc but, tbh, I am now at the point where I don't trust much that Chris Heck says, and what's more, if we were considering moving or a new stadium - does anyone think they'd actually tell us that right now?
No, they'll say whatever they need to say to close the subject down so it doesn't become a distraction.
I mean, look at the utter, utter bullshit about collaboration with fans on this new badge, then the rubbish about binning the old new one after a year.
It's fundamentally untrue, so not sure why they'd tell us the truth about this.
Absolutely. No such thing as coincidences. It's a new build, whether on site or somewhere else in the city centre.
Saying we're not moving today means nothing for tomorrow when we might be. We had funding in place to rebuild the North. Why on earth would you need another £6bn fund unless you were going to go bigger? And why spend £100m to still be left behind by the inadequacies inherent to Villa Park.
New build all the live long day.
Yep, agreed.
Even when the initial plans were announced it was always termed as a phased upgrade to the whole ground (and 60k kicked about as the final result). I suspect they want to look at the options on whether doing it all at once is a better idea. When the Comcast partnership was announced one thing I mentioned was that it added expertise/knowledge that we might not have and by that I meant in building and maintaining stadiums. I get that right now everyone hates Heck and therefore want to assume that everything he's involved with is shit but we need to be careful not to get carried away with that.
I'd be amazed if they aren't, right now, working out the cost to develop on site and move us somewhere else for a year or 2 versus the cost to build a new stadium elsewhere. Either requires the purchase of a bunch of land/houses/etc though so I doubt we'd be starting the work for a while (2028 if we stay on site, a little sooner if we move), which is why we're getting the extra seats from reconfiguration and I suspect they'll tack on some facility improvements as well, all for a fraction of the cost the new stand would've been. If it is this I doubt we'll hear anything about it officially until next year at the earliest.
All of this. Looking at the land registry, the houses on the end of Nelson Road are worth a maximum of £150k each – a company this size would have no qualms about making a very nice offer to those families, that would leave Villa with a bill of £5m max, to free up a much bigger footprint on the existing site for a rebuild.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 04, 2024, 07:09:38 PM
I really can't see us doing multiple stands at VP at the same time.Now the North is cancelled I think that will be pretty much it for 5-10 years. Then we'll all start discussing potential new design and how filling in corners would be an outrage.
Rinse and repeat.
Post by: The Edge on January 04, 2024, 07:30:24 PM
I agree. I can't see how it's possible to shoehorn 3,000 more seats in the ground without using the North Stand corners. That's a big problem because those pillars are huge. So a new cantilever roof would be the only way to do it. This takes the ground to approx 45,000. Am I right in thinking we need 50,000 to host the Euro games in 2028? If that's true it raises even more questions because we have committed to Villa Park being one of the venues.. Either requires the purchase of a bunch of land/houses/etc though so I doubt we'd be starting the work for a while (2028 if we stay on site, a little sooner if we move), which is why we're getting the extra seats from reconfiguration and I suspect they'll tack on some facility improvements as well, all for a fraction of the cost the new stand would've been. If it is this I doubt we'll hear anything about it officially until next year at the earliest.
From What I can see reconfiguration can only happen if we take the roof, truss and goalposts off the North Stand which would be quite a major project.
Post by: oldhill_avfc on January 04, 2024, 07:38:36 PM
If the owners are as ambitious as they seem and want to compete at the highest level, then a 60k stadium with commensurate GA+ (or whatever term they use) is an absolute necessity.
I think they value the heritage and history of Villa and Villa Park being a key asset.
The best option on moving forward as surely got to be buying up the 3 streets of housing between Witton Lane and the railway.
The council would likely be supportive - they need every bit of help in regeneration given the financial mess they’re in.
Perhaps this is the time to strike the right kind of deal with them - even including compulsory purchasing.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 08:08:01 PM
The best option on moving forward as surely got to be buying up the 3 streets of housing between Witton Lane and the railway.Not sure if anyone's mentioned it but if they're looking at a huge upgrade then as well as those three streets then maybe they'd be looking to buy up Nelson Rd and Jardine Rd on the opposite side.
As someone else did say, the ground doesn't just end at the extent of the stands.
Post by: Goldenballs on January 04, 2024, 08:09:32 PM
Post by: Rudy Can't Fail on January 04, 2024, 08:26:39 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 08:31:01 PM
There's plenty of regeneration funds available to support this type of project from the EU.Shame we left the EU then.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 04, 2024, 08:31:35 PM
But didn't Heck say we didn't need a bigger ground?There is that.
Do you believe him?
Post by: Skerra on January 04, 2024, 08:39:04 PM
At least we can put the bullshit about a 30,000 waiting list behind us. If they said it was a couple of thousand, I’d be more inclined to believe it.
Post by: jon collett on January 04, 2024, 08:48:51 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 04, 2024, 09:49:32 PM
That's how much Comcast have in Atairos isn't it?
Ah, gotcha.From what I gather, Atairos is a fund set up by the ex-CEO of Comcast, with $4bn of Comcast money and $40m of his. As an admitted layman, I don’t think Atairos’s total fund is at our disposal, just like the noses haven’t got access to the money under management by Knighthead. The exciting thing for us is that Atairos are almost wholly owned by Comcast, and that’s a whole different ball game IMO.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 04, 2024, 09:55:36 PM
But didn't Heck say we didn't need a bigger ground?
Was it need more seats too fast with the current transport infrastructure or something?
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2024, 09:13:21 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 09:16:55 AM
I believe that he believes it.But didn't Heck say we didn't need a bigger ground?There is that.
Do you believe him?
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 09:18:12 AM
30000 may be a high number but I bet if they put 200 extra season tickets on sale to cover these supposedly empty seats they would sell them all immediately.There's a bit of double counting going on there though Jon. The assumption would probably be that the 200 who would immediately snap up the ST's are probably going to most games anyway.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 09:19:18 AM
We can't sell enough premium seats is the issue, I'm sure of it. Demand for the TV and HS isn't great.I agree.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 09:22:03 AM
To me cancelling the North Stand replacement makes sense.This is pure fantasy. It's been cancelled because they don't think we need a bigger ground right now, not because they are planning some huge CPO purchase of 100's of houses.
If the owners are as ambitious as they seem and want to compete at the highest level, then a 60k stadium with commensurate GA+ (or whatever term they use) is an absolute necessity.
I think they value the heritage and history of Villa and Villa Park being a key asset.
The best option on moving forward as surely got to be buying up the 3 streets of housing between Witton Lane and the railway.
The council would likely be supportive - they need every bit of help in regeneration given the financial mess they’re in.
Perhaps this is the time to strike the right kind of deal with them - even including compulsory purchasing.
Post by: TheMalandro on January 05, 2024, 09:32:20 AM
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 09:46:33 AM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?I think they'd probably sell another 4-5k season tickets quite comfortably - they must know this. But many will already be match-going fans, so all it really does is take 4-5k of floating demand out of the equation. Personally I think with success the fans would follow and cancelling the development is short-sighted. But I think as London Villan mentions, the stand was never really about an extra 7,000 seats at £45 a match.
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
Post by: jon collett on January 05, 2024, 09:52:03 AM
30000 may be a high number but I bet if they put 200 extra season tickets on sale to cover these supposedly empty seats they would sell them all immediately.There's a bit of double counting going on there though Jon. The assumption would probably be that the 200 who would immediately snap up the ST's are probably going to most games anyway.
ok I will put it another way I don't think it will be very easy to purchase a season ticket at the end of this season so the waiting list is genuine whatever the number. Personally I think its the regular 200 empty seats which is the myth.
Post by: aev on January 05, 2024, 09:52:08 AM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?I think they'd probably sell another 4-5k season tickets quite comfortably - they must know this. But many will already be match-going fans, so all it really does is take 4-5k of floating demand out of the equation. Personally I think with success the fans would follow and cancelling the development is short-sighted. But I think as London Villan mentions, the stand was never really about an extra 7,000 seats at £45 a match.
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
There are 3 of us on the waiting list, and we'd buy them today if we could. We are not interested in the fancy add on stuff however.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 09:58:19 AM
I agree. The 200 seats thing is bollocks. But if hypothetically we increased from 30 to 35k season ticket holders, that doesn't mean there's suddenly 5k more fans than we are currently getting, just 5k people purchasing seats in a different way.30000 may be a high number but I bet if they put 200 extra season tickets on sale to cover these supposedly empty seats they would sell them all immediately.There's a bit of double counting going on there though Jon. The assumption would probably be that the 200 who would immediately snap up the ST's are probably going to most games anyway.
ok I will put it another way I don't think it will be very easy to purchase a season ticket at the end of this season so the waiting list is genuine whatever the number. Personally I think its the regular 200 empty seats which is the myth.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 10:03:24 AM
I said the other day, the thing I do not like about this and the badge saga is I have a sneaking feeling we are effectively at best being treated like idiots and at worst, lied to. It feels like “we aren’t going to build it and it’s all your fault for not buying enough tickets”.
Well in that case, Mr Heck, what type of fucking idiots are you guys having spent the last two years proudly crowing about it and spending huge amounts of money on it?
I genuinely trust this guy as far as I can throw him and he’s only been here six months.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 10:06:53 AM
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 05, 2024, 10:11:09 AM
I agree. The 200 seats thing is bollocks. But if hypothetically we increased from 30 to 35k season ticket holders, that doesn't mean there's suddenly 5k more fans than we are currently getting, just 5k people purchasing seats in a different way.30000 may be a high number but I bet if they put 200 extra season tickets on sale to cover these supposedly empty seats they would sell them all immediately.There's a bit of double counting going on there though Jon. The assumption would probably be that the 200 who would immediately snap up the ST's are probably going to most games anyway.
ok I will put it another way I don't think it will be very easy to purchase a season ticket at the end of this season so the waiting list is genuine whatever the number. Personally I think its the regular 200 empty seats which is the myth.
I agree with that to an extent, as probably the majority of non ST holders going to games currently are members (as it's the only way to have a chance of getting tickets together if that's what you need) and on the waiting list, so they are not an extra 10k who would be turning up each week.
What the current situation masks, however, is demand beyond that - people who would be interested in going to at least some games, but don't because they have no chance of getting tickets at the moment. I think whoever is in charge of the situation (presumably Heck) has fundamentally misunderstood our fanbase. There seems to be an attitude that if someone isn't prepared to pay £150 to see one game then they aren't really that interested so we won't cater for them. This means that at a time when we have a real opportunity to capture a generation of support, we are forgoing it because they aren't the right type of fan.
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 10:15:21 AM
The off the field stuff at the moment is so damn frustrating. We finally have everything going forward and they kill the new development. It just stings.
Post by: exigo on January 05, 2024, 10:17:52 AM
Heck has bulldozed his way in thinking that instead of all that, he could attract a few thousand extra GA+ instead, paying £100+ a seat per match, instead of the £45-55 GA.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 10:21:46 AM
If he's not going to do it by increasing the number of us - even though we're selling all the seats week in, week out - then there's one other way to do it, and that's to increase the amount they make from each one of us.
There's no way he does that by the TV and LG alone - do some basic back of fag packet calculations, it's peanuts (probably literally given what I've read about some of the food offerings) - he's going to do that by making us pay a lot more to get what we currently have. That means match tickets, the lot.
Prediction - these extra 2 or 3000 seats? Won't happen. It's just more smoke and mirrors.
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 10:22:06 AM
I just want to give him a shake. Honestly, such baffling decisions have accompanied his arrival
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 10:24:33 AM
I agree completely Pat. It seems very short-sighted to me. It feels like a fuck you to traditional everyday fans.I agree. The 200 seats thing is bollocks. But if hypothetically we increased from 30 to 35k season ticket holders, that doesn't mean there's suddenly 5k more fans than we are currently getting, just 5k people purchasing seats in a different way.30000 may be a high number but I bet if they put 200 extra season tickets on sale to cover these supposedly empty seats they would sell them all immediately.There's a bit of double counting going on there though Jon. The assumption would probably be that the 200 who would immediately snap up the ST's are probably going to most games anyway.
ok I will put it another way I don't think it will be very easy to purchase a season ticket at the end of this season so the waiting list is genuine whatever the number. Personally I think its the regular 200 empty seats which is the myth.
I agree with that to an extent, as probably the majority of non ST holders going to games currently are members (as it's the only way to have a chance of getting tickets together if that's what you need) and on the waiting list, so they are not an extra 10k who would be turning up each week.
What the current situation masks, however, is demand beyond that - people who would be interested in going to at least some games, but don't because they have no chance of getting tickets at the moment. I think whoever is in charge of the situation (presumably Heck) has fundamentally misunderstood our fanbase. There seems to be an attitude that if someone isn't prepared to pay £150 to see one game then they aren't really that interested so we won't cater for them. This means that at a time when we have a real opportunity to capture a generation of support, we are forgoing it because they aren't the right type of fan.
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 10:25:52 AM
They had bags and bags of goodwill, and still do. But Chris Heck is burning through it at a rate of knots.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 10:28:06 AM
His brief is to increase revenue.
If he's not going to do it by increasing the number of us - even though we're selling all the seats week in, week out - then there's one other way to do it, and that's to increase the amount they make from each one of us.
There's no way he does that by the TV and LG alone - do some basic back of fag packet calculations, it's peanuts (probably literally given what I've read about some of the food offerings) - he's going to do that by making us pay a lot more to get what we currently have. That means match tickets, the lot.
Prediction - these extra 2 or 3000 seats? Won't happen. It's just more smoke and mirrors.
I think the convenient/ready excuse to treating us like idiots is fundamentally the same spectrum. None of it reconciles with what's gone before, how nothing has changed from conception of new North to cancelling beyond;
(i) changing of the chief money man
(ii) his old pals that owned his last club's stadium, with exprience of investing in the building of them, have bought a stake in NWSE
If you think this is about 200 seats in Lower Grounds/Terrace View, which is an exercise in making more money from what already exists, then perhaps you're deserving of the contempt those "excuses" given by Heck hold you in.
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Post by: frank black on January 05, 2024, 10:29:12 AM
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 10:31:22 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 10:31:53 AM
Incidentally a few months ago we resubmitted the plans without Villa Live.They wanted to downgrade Villa Live. There was no reason not to resubmit the stand at the same time to retain the planning permission.
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 10:32:59 AM
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
Post by: exigo on January 05, 2024, 10:35:01 AM
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 10:38:04 AM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
It also solves an issue of spending £100m to still lag seriously behind because your other 3 stands cannot offer what the North can. More importantly you've spent 9 figure sums to not gain anything on the other 7 or 8 clubs you're competing with.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 10:39:38 AM
The only feasible way to add anywhere near 3,000 seats into the existing stand footprint would be to dig the pitch down and put in extra rows at the front. And we all know that's not happening.
You've got the four corners, with the two either side of the North being the obvious targets. But it wouldn't be a quick or easy job at all. You'd have to knock down what's there already, put the seats in somehow, and then think about what you do with the roof so that they're covered. It would end up being a right botch job and looking shit, and I don't think for a second that they're going to do it.
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 10:41:54 AM
I think a full rebuild is a complex, complex process that could easily go very badly indeed, especially now that we have established the existing stadium as a real fortress. I really would prefer them to do the North Stand and then do the Witton. Between 1993-1995 we got a brand new Witton and a brand new Holte so it could be done.
I actually don't like the idea of a single tier Holte as I think the banners hanging off the top tier is something that has sort ot become part of Villa culture over the past three decades.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 05, 2024, 10:49:43 AM
Actually, that's a very good point.
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
Unless of course they're just going to shrink everyone's seats. Some of us might end up on something like a bicycle seat, evoquing memories of the old Yellow Pages ad - "be lark sittin' on t'razor blade".
* If you're under about 45 you'll likely have no clue what I'm on about.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 05, 2024, 10:55:02 AM
Actually, that's a very good point.
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
Unless of course they're just going to shrink everyone's seats. Some of us might end up on something like a bicycle seat, evoquing memories of the old Yellow Pages ad - "be lark sittin' on t'razor blade".
* If you're under about 45 you'll likely have no clue what I'm on about.
' I was right about that saddle though '
Post by: algy on January 05, 2024, 11:09:11 AM
I'm with Ads here. Aside from burning £100m, all we achieve is having slightly more seats than Sunderland. We've got the 8th biggest ground in England rather than the 9th biggest ground in England. Meanwhile, we've still got 3 stands that can't offer what the North Stand can offer, and realistically if we redeveloped them would be exactly the same size as they currently are as there's no room for them to be any bigger. And that won't change unless we bulldoze the new £100m stand.The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
It also solves an issue of spending £100m to still lag seriously behind because your other 3 stands cannot offer what the North can. More importantly you've spent 9 figure sums to not gain anything on the other 7 or 8 clubs you're competing with.
I'm reserving judgement on the North Stand redevelopment for a little while. If it's genuinely a 'do nothing' approach then they've fucked up massively. If it's a case that we're looking at a complete redevelopment of Villa Park then it makes no sense whatsoever to rebuild the NS this summer. If we're moving grounds completely ... well, it depends on how soon, I guess. But it still might not make sense to spend money if we don't see a long term future in the existing Trinity Road and/or Holte End stands.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 11:20:50 AM
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
I don't know about these things but would adding about 7% more seats and not doing much external work need permission?
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 11:28:20 AM
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
I don't know about these things but would adding about 7% more seats and not doing much external work need permission?
Well it depends on how they were planning to do it, but anything in the corners would require some fairly big construction, so almost certainly, yes. I'm no expert either, but 3,000 seats is a lot of people, and of course that's going to have an effect on existing facilities and safety measures. As an aside, 3,000 more people trying to get served at half time in the existing crappy facilities isn't going to be much fun for anybody.
Post by: Somniloquism on January 05, 2024, 11:31:04 AM
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
I don't know about these things but would adding about 7% more seats and not doing much external work need permission?
It would need to be passed through the departments who inspect and sign off the safety requirements of the ground, especially with a 5-8% increase in capacity. And Wolves submitted a planning application for the crappy 500 seat extension they added in the corners.
Post by: paul_e on January 05, 2024, 11:33:53 AM
I agree with you also on the extra 2000/3000 seats. It's not feasible.
Also there's no planning application in to do it, so it wouldn't be happening anytime soon, even if they were telling the truth about it.
I don't know about these things but would adding about 7% more seats and not doing much external work need permission?
Well it depends on how they were planning to do it, but anything in the corners would require some fairly big construction, so almost certainly, yes. I'm no expert either, but 3,000 seats is a lot of people, and of course that's going to have an effect on existing facilities and safety measures. As an aside, 3,000 more people trying to get served at half time in the existing crappy facilities isn't going to be much fun for anybody.
The first part of that is what matters. We're all looking at the ground and trying to work out how they could do it but until we see how they plan to actually achieve the increase we're all a bit blind as to what impact it will have. For me that's the worst part of this. Cancelling the plans for the North is fine by me but how it's been justified and how they've hinted at what they're going to do instead has created a bit of a black hole for everyone to throw opinions into.
Post by: jon collett on January 05, 2024, 11:39:41 AM
But if they were being serious then adding 3k seats to the corners of the North Stand would require a new roof. I asked Simon Inglis and he agreed.
Restructuring a football ground is not permitted development and requires planning permission and a new safety certificate anyway but in this case it would be fairly extensive reconstruction.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 11:56:26 AM
If you think this is about 200 seats in Lower Grounds/Terrace View, which is an exercise in making more money from what already exists, then perhaps you're deserving of the contempt those "excuses" given by Heck hold you in.
That is precisely what I mean - you do not need the perceptive brainpower of Sherlock Holmes to see the flaw in that particular argument, but that's what is coming out of them, not selling out by 200 seats.
It's just so easy to demolish that one, they genuinely do think we're idiots.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 11:57:48 AM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
We're going to have 10,000 fewer seats than Everton (Everton, ffs), probably 20k fewer than Newcastle will when they extend / move, 20k fewer than West Ham, 18k fewer than Spurs, and we'll be in a stadium where two of the stands are genuinely not fit for purpose.
I have a problem with how utterly small time that is.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 11:58:44 AM
Incidentally a few months ago we resubmitted the plans without Villa Live.They wanted to downgrade Villa Live. There was no reason not to resubmit the stand at the same time to retain the planning permission.
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
What I mean is - downgraded Villa Live, then shortly after pause the entire thing. It can't be that they've had some sort of epiphany between that and now?
Just pause it there and then.
There's something afoot.
Post by: exigo on January 05, 2024, 11:58:50 AM
The only feasible way to add anywhere near 3,000 seats into the existing stand footprint would be to dig the pitch down and put in extra rows at the front. And we all know that's not happening.
You've got the four corners, with the two either side of the North being the obvious targets. But it wouldn't be a quick or easy job at all. You'd have to knock down what's there already, put the seats in somehow, and then think about what you do with the roof so that they're covered. It would end up being a right botch job and looking shit, and I don't think for a second that they're going to do it.
That's not what I said – that would be extending the footprint, which is also a feasible way of adding 3,000 seats, just not a particularly inspiring way of spunking a whole chunk of cash for the added capacity.
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2024, 11:59:01 AM
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 12:00:36 PM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
We're going to have 10,000 fewer seats than Everton (Everton, ffs), probably 20k fewer than Newcastle will when they extend / move, 20k fewer than West Ham, 18k fewer than Spurs, and we'll be in a stadium where two of the stands are genuinely not fit for purpose.
I have a problem with how utterly small time that is.
That's why redeveloping the North Stand made sense. Get us to 50k and all the bells and whistles in a new stand. Reassess and then see what can be done with the Witton. By all accounts we do pretty good hospitality in the Trinity. Keep the Holte as the stand of the die hard fans.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 12:02:34 PM
The only feasible way to add anywhere near 3,000 seats into the existing stand footprint would be to dig the pitch down and put in extra rows at the front. And we all know that's not happening.
You've got the four corners, with the two either side of the North being the obvious targets. But it wouldn't be a quick or easy job at all. You'd have to knock down what's there already, put the seats in somehow, and then think about what you do with the roof so that they're covered. It would end up being a right botch job and looking shit, and I don't think for a second that they're going to do it.
That's not what I said – that would be extending the footprint, which is also a feasible way of adding 3,000 seats, just not a particularly inspiring way of spunking a whole chunk of cash for the added capacity.
Think how horrendously half-arsed and botched it'd be.
We can't tell ourselves we have a beautiful, characterful ground, then hammer in 3,000 seats where there are gaps, and end up with some sort of eye bleedingly awful mess like Wolves have.
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2024, 12:07:05 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/Lhh7963/Wrig-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lhh7963)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q6vMhrb/Wrig-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6vMhrb)
Post by: PeterWithe on January 05, 2024, 12:11:32 PM
It would also give us some troops in reserve if we ever need them for Battle of the Condiments II
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 12:26:01 PM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
We're going to have 10,000 fewer seats than Everton (Everton, ffs), probably 20k fewer than Newcastle will when they extend / move, 20k fewer than West Ham, 18k fewer than Spurs, and we'll be in a stadium where two of the stands are genuinely not fit for purpose.
I have a problem with how utterly small time that is.
That's why redeveloping the North Stand made sense. Get us to 50k and all the bells and whistles in a new stand. Reassess and then see what can be done with the Witton. By all accounts we do pretty good hospitality in the Trinity. Keep the Holte as the stand of the die hard fans.
We'd still have a smaller ground than the aforementioned and we'd lack seriously behind the majority facility wise and money generation potential as a result. It makes no sense when you consider it from that point of view.
Post by: eamonn on January 05, 2024, 12:28:22 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 12:28:34 PM
Because they didn't need to. Why not just keep the planning permission alive at no extra effort or cost?Incidentally a few months ago we resubmitted the plans without Villa Live.They wanted to downgrade Villa Live. There was no reason not to resubmit the stand at the same time to retain the planning permission.
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
What I mean is - downgraded Villa Live, then shortly after pause the entire thing. It can't be that they've had some sort of epiphany between that and now?
Just pause it there and then.
There's something afoot.
Post by: ian c. on January 05, 2024, 12:29:19 PM
You've got the four corners, with the two either side of the North being the obvious targets.
I think the 2 massive roof supports would cause issues with lines of sight meaning only a smallish section could be tacked on the ends of the Witton and Trinity Road stands, unless you put on a new roof and took the supports away.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 12:31:42 PM
Because they didn't need to. Why not just keep the planning permission alive at no extra effort or cost?Incidentally a few months ago we resubmitted the plans without Villa Live.They wanted to downgrade Villa Live. There was no reason not to resubmit the stand at the same time to retain the planning permission.
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
What I mean is - downgraded Villa Live, then shortly after pause the entire thing. It can't be that they've had some sort of epiphany between that and now?
Just pause it there and then.
There's something afoot.
We still have planning permission now even though we've canned it. Our intention is immaterial.
Post by: Gareth on January 05, 2024, 12:32:06 PM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
We're going to have 10,000 fewer seats than Everton (Everton, ffs), probably 20k fewer than Newcastle will when they extend / move, 20k fewer than West Ham, 18k fewer than Spurs, and we'll be in a stadium where two of the stands are genuinely not fit for purpose.
I have a problem with how utterly small time that is.
That's why redeveloping the North Stand made sense. Get us to 50k and all the bells and whistles in a new stand. Reassess and then see what can be done with the Witton. By all accounts we do pretty good hospitality in the Trinity. Keep the Holte as the stand of the die hard fans.
We'd still have a smaller ground than the aforementioned and we'd lack seriously behind the majority facility wise and money generation potential as a result. It makes no sense when you consider it from that point of view.
It’s exactly this discussion that shows that it wasn’t the decision that was necessarily incorrect it was the ham fisted way they communicated it. All they had to say was that it was on hold whilst they consider all options rather than using the 200 seats excuse.
Communication is awful
Post by: algy on January 05, 2024, 12:33:22 PM
The only comparison I can think of is somewhere like Wrigley Field in Chicago, where seats have been shoehorned onto the roofs of adjacent buildings to increase the capacity and make the most of the properties overlooking the field. This could be done in the corners...This is one of my favourite photos ... from Dundee United when their stand was under construction ...
(https://i.ibb.co/Lhh7963/Wrig-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lhh7963)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q6vMhrb/Wrig-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6vMhrb)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/27/2a/ff272af099fbcf13ae96d260e8e21c51.jpg)
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 12:33:36 PM
The discussion from Paulie was why not can it at the point of downgrading the Villa Live planning. My point was just that there was no need to.Because they didn't need to. Why not just keep the planning permission alive at no extra effort or cost?Incidentally a few months ago we resubmitted the plans without Villa Live.They wanted to downgrade Villa Live. There was no reason not to resubmit the stand at the same time to retain the planning permission.
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
What I mean is - downgraded Villa Live, then shortly after pause the entire thing. It can't be that they've had some sort of epiphany between that and now?
Just pause it there and then.
There's something afoot.
We still have planning permission now even though we've canned it. Our intention is immaterial.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 12:33:44 PM
Incidentally a few months ago we resubmitted the plans without Villa Live.They wanted to downgrade Villa Live. There was no reason not to resubmit the stand at the same time to retain the planning permission.
Why didn’t we pause the whole thing then?
What I mean is - downgraded Villa Live, then shortly after pause the entire thing. It can't be that they've had some sort of epiphany between that and now?
Just pause it there and then.
There's something afoot.
Exactly. The GA+ is more popular now than October. But what has changed since we amended planning?
Probably the most important off the field matter since 2018 with Comcast investment vehicle de facto buying into our club by purchasing a portion of NWSE, with all their stadium owning and stadium building exprience.
But its all about 200 tickets, too fast etc etc. Sure, sure, sure.
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 12:34:08 PM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
We're going to have 10,000 fewer seats than Everton (Everton, ffs), probably 20k fewer than Newcastle will when they extend / move, 20k fewer than West Ham, 18k fewer than Spurs, and we'll be in a stadium where two of the stands are genuinely not fit for purpose.
I have a problem with how utterly small time that is.
That's why redeveloping the North Stand made sense. Get us to 50k and all the bells and whistles in a new stand. Reassess and then see what can be done with the Witton. By all accounts we do pretty good hospitality in the Trinity. Keep the Holte as the stand of the die hard fans.
We'd still have a smaller ground than the aforementioned and we'd lack seriously behind the majority facility wise and money generation potential as a result. It makes no sense when you consider it from that point of view.
You then do a deal with the council and you focus on building over Witton Lane as your next project after the North is rebuilt and you start the lower tier of the new Witton closer to the pitch- there is wasted space at the front of the current Witton.
It's probably as cost effective to buy the houses and go back three times further than the current Witton footprint as it is to spunk over a billion on a new build 60,000 stadium
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 12:36:40 PM
The thing is, the thought of a brand new Villa Park on the existing site is really exciting, even it would mean playing our home games in Leicester or Wolverhampton for a couple of years.
We're going to have 10,000 fewer seats than Everton (Everton, ffs), probably 20k fewer than Newcastle will when they extend / move, 20k fewer than West Ham, 18k fewer than Spurs, and we'll be in a stadium where two of the stands are genuinely not fit for purpose.
I have a problem with how utterly small time that is.
That's why redeveloping the North Stand made sense. Get us to 50k and all the bells and whistles in a new stand. Reassess and then see what can be done with the Witton. By all accounts we do pretty good hospitality in the Trinity. Keep the Holte as the stand of the die hard fans.
We'd still have a smaller ground than the aforementioned and we'd lack seriously behind the majority facility wise and money generation potential as a result. It makes no sense when you consider it from that point of view.
You then do a deal with the council and you focus on building over Witton Lane as your next project after the North is rebuilt and you start the lower tier of the new Witton closer tot he pitch- there is wasted space at the front of the current Witton.
And what sort of deal do you do to make the Trinity offer up more space for facilities for GA, add the volume of corporate to it that makes it compete with our contemporaries?
Villa Park is inadequate to compete with Everton, West Ham, Arsenal, Spurs, Man City etc etc etc
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 12:39:58 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 12:42:26 PM
And we get to keep playing at Villa Park while its done. And it is achievable.
I think some of Everton's issues were caused by how big an undertaking their full rebuild turned out to be. Arsenal have never been quite the same since losing Highbury and Spurs, yeah, it worked out well for them but then again WHL was never in the same bracket as Villa Park, Highbury, Goodison etc.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 12:46:53 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 05, 2024, 12:52:05 PM
Comcast are listed on the Nasdaq. I'm pretty sure they don't want Villa making comments about the potential of them funding a new stadium, sure to be a billion dollar project, before all the options are explored and they have something to present in a controlled and investor-friendly fashion.
Just imagine the sell frenzy when they see the state of our new badge.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 01:04:14 PM
I think you're going to be very disappointed ADS.
Why do you think Comcast investment vehicle has bought into the parent group? Do you find it coincidental that the plans are almost immediately halted to rebuild the North? Did you believe the rebuild would provide parity with Everton/Spurs?
For avoidance of doubt, Oliver Stone is a crank and LHO shot Kennedy on his own, like the good Marine marksman he was. But this doesn't require a 200 ticket Zapurder film on the grassy knoll in Aston Park.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 01:05:32 PM
I reckon that the odds of us spending 3-4 years playing at another ground while VP is completely rebuilt are zero.
Why would it have to be that long? The Spurs ground was shifted slightly off its original footprint so that construction could begin with the old stadium still in use. They then knocked all of WHL down in June 2017. The stadium was built by September 2018, but problems meant it wasn't properly open until April 19. Without the electrical problems it would have been a year, but even so it was still less than two.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 01:10:51 PM
Post by: nick harper on January 05, 2024, 01:10:54 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 01:13:30 PM
I reckon that the odds of us spending 3-4 years playing at another ground while VP is completely rebuilt are zero.
Why would it have to be that long? The Spurs ground was shifted slightly off its original footprint so that construction could begin with the old stadium still in use. They then knocked all of WHL down in June 2017. The stadium was built by September 2018, but problems meant it wasn't properly open until April 19. Without the electrical problems it would have been a year, but even so it was still less than two.
Looking at google maps, you could shift us back a bit towards Witton but it would be a hell of a big undertaking for the sake of a slightly squarer Trinity Holte Corner (Witton Lane still hems us in at the other end) and I like the chracter of the Holte Witton corner.
I still prefer the idea of a new North and a new Witton after that.
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 01:15:08 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 05, 2024, 01:18:44 PM
Didn't Heck say they are doubling the size of the existing club shop? Seems to rule out rebuilding further back on the current site?
Isn't that building on two floors? There's also the ticket office in there. Again, planning permission would have had to be put in by now if they were going to do anything other than shifting things about in existing buildings any time soon.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 01:28:27 PM
Didn't Heck say they are doubling the size of the existing club shop? Seems to rule out rebuilding further back on the current site?
Even that announcement was laughably bad. "And don't be surprised if we double the size of the club shop!"
Don't be surprised? Are you doing it or not?
I imagine they're just going to use existing space in that building to peddle more tat.
Post by: London Villan on January 05, 2024, 01:30:39 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 05, 2024, 01:36:37 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 01:39:14 PM
Bit of a tangent, but 3 years ago this week (according to my Facebook memories), we played at Fulham and they were just starting to build their new Riverside stand. 3 years on and it’s still not fully opened. Shocking.
Building on the banks of a river, mind, that's got to be particularly tricky.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 01:40:15 PM
I reckon that the odds of us spending 3-4 years playing at another ground while VP is completely rebuilt are zero.
Why would it have to be that long? The Spurs ground was shifted slightly off its original footprint so that construction could begin with the old stadium still in use. They then knocked all of WHL down in June 2017. The stadium was built by September 2018, but problems meant it wasn't properly open until April 19. Without the electrical problems it would have been a year, but even so it was still less than two.
Initial work prepping the site started a couple of years before. Everton stadium will be 4 years. Emirates took over 2 years to build but that was just the stadium build on a blank site, it didn't include actually clearing the site. We are so hemmed in that early work would most likely be minimal. And regardless of build time, it's years away from being possible because of Witton Lane and the houses.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 01:42:09 PM
I just think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Of course I could be wrong, but it feels more to me like scaling down not up.I think you're going to be very disappointed ADS.
Why do you think Comcast investment vehicle has bought into the parent group? Do you find it coincidental that the plans are almost immediately halted to rebuild the North? Did you believe the rebuild would provide parity with Everton/Spurs?
For avoidance of doubt, Oliver Stone is a crank and LHO shot Kennedy on his own, like the good Marine marksman he was. But this doesn't require a 200 ticket Zapurder film on the grassy knoll in Aston Park.
Didn't Heck say they are doubling the size of the existing club shop? Seems to rule out rebuilding further back on the current site?The costs of this are nominal. It won't have any impact on long term decisions for the site as a whole.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 01:53:32 PM
Initial work prepping the site started a couple of years before. Everton stadium will be 4 years. Emirates took over 2 years to build but that was just the stadium build on a blank site, it didn't include actually clearing the site. We are so hemmed in that early work would most likely be minimal. And regardless of build time, it's years away from being possible because of Witton Lane and the houses.
A complete rebuild would take years in terms of all the planning, any CPOs etc, but that doesn't mean we'd playing in another stadium for 3 or 4 years.
Post by: LeeB on January 05, 2024, 01:54:50 PM
The only comparison I can think of is somewhere like Wrigley Field in Chicago, where seats have been shoehorned onto the roofs of adjacent buildings to increase the capacity and make the most of the properties overlooking the field. This could be done in the corners...This is one of my favourite photos ... from Dundee United when their stand was under construction ...
(https://i.ibb.co/Lhh7963/Wrig-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lhh7963)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q6vMhrb/Wrig-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6vMhrb)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/27/2a/ff272af099fbcf13ae96d260e8e21c51.jpg)
Ha, 2 tickets for the Fuck That! stand please.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 01:58:24 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/f1JQ2W4/Screenshot-2024-01-05-at-13-57-12.png) (https://ibb.co/f1JQ2W4)
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 02:08:53 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 05, 2024, 02:08:58 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 02:11:01 PM
Since when did scaling back require extra investment? We'll find out, but logically, the timing, the parties involved- it makes no sense to believe the 200 ticket nonsense.I don't believe the 200 ticket nonsense either. As others have said, my suspicion is it's more down to lack of confidence in the demand for premium / GA+ tickets in the new stand.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 02:13:57 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 05, 2024, 02:17:25 PM
The pre-war Norwich ground, The Nest took some beating:
(https://i.ibb.co/f1JQ2W4/Screenshot-2024-01-05-at-13-57-12.png) (https://ibb.co/f1JQ2W4)
The only time I ever smoked crack was in a house just behind there.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 02:22:40 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 02:24:12 PM
Initial work prepping the site started a couple of years before. Everton stadium will be 4 years. Emirates took over 2 years to build but that was just the stadium build on a blank site, it didn't include actually clearing the site. We are so hemmed in that early work would most likely be minimal. And regardless of build time, it's years away from being possible because of Witton Lane and the houses.
A complete rebuild would take years in terms of all the planning, any CPOs etc, but that doesn't mean we'd playing in another stadium for 3 or 4 years.
The demolition and rebuild would be more than 2 years though. Arsenal, Spurs and Everton show us that. But it's not worth debating forever as it's the best part of a decade away from happening even if they are thinking of it.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 02:25:00 PM
And that lack of confidence happened 4 days after the investment vehicle for Comcast (who own multiple stadiums in the US) decide to buy into the parent group. And that doesn't smell remotely fishy to you? It's all scaling back?Well the meeting happened 4 days after if that's what you mean.
Maybe you're right, we'll see. I'm not holding my breath though. As I said in an earlier post I think we'll probably be re-looking at another North Stand redevelopment video in 4-5 years time, then another 2-3 years to deliver it, if they actually go through with it next time.
Whatever they choose to do, it will probably be too late to capitalise on the Emery era.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 02:26:06 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
There was a game a while ago where the away side didn't take the upper tier so it was available to Villa fans. From memory there was nothing from the club about it and I think it was Percy that said he grabbed tickets there but only knew about them because someone on here mentioned it.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 02:26:53 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.I think we all agree the 200 seat thing is just an excuse. A pathetic one at that.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 05, 2024, 02:28:02 PM
Exactly. And if I recall right you couldn't even click on them on the website, it may have been box office sales only?There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
There was a game a while ago where the away side didn't take the upper tier so it was available to Villa fans. From memory there was nothing from the club about it and I think it was Percy that said he grabbed tickets there but only knew about them because someone on here mentioned it.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 02:28:25 PM
And that lack of confidence happened 4 days after the investment vehicle for Comcast (who own multiple stadiums in the US) decide to buy into the parent group. And that doesn't smell remotely fishy to you? It's all scaling back?Well the meeting happened 4 days after if that's what you mean.
Maybe you're right, we'll see. I'm not holding my breath though. As I said in an earlier post I think we'll probably be re-looking at another North Stand redevelopment video in 4-5 years time, then another 2-3 years to deliver it, if they actually go through with it next time.
Whatever they choose to do, it will probably be too late to capitalise on the Emery era.
I don't. I think you might as well not bother if it costs £100m to not close the gap in any significant way and instead take £100m away from where you might close it (giving it Emery).
That's why it's my belief we've got Comcast's investment group specifically, aided by a past relationship with Heck to think bigger, bigger requiring more dollar.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 02:30:03 PM
Post by: aev on January 05, 2024, 02:30:54 PM
They'd have been better served saying something like "we've put the North Stand on hold as we want to reevaluate the plans to ensure the best for the long term future of the club." Instead they witter on about 200 seats and create a bigger issue as many will feel they're being treated like idiots.
Absolutely.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 02:33:38 PM
They'd have been better served saying something like "we've put the North Stand on hold as we want to reevaluate the plans to ensure the best for the long term future of the club." Instead they witter on about 200 seats and create a bigger issue as many will feel they're being treated like idiots.
That interview on the OS was the most amateurish thing I've ever seen.
"So, tell us about the plans for the North Stand, lots of Villa fans are excited about that."
"We're cancelling it."
I mean, this was an in house person asking his boss pre-prepared questions, not some gormless politician facing Jeremy Paxman.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 03:03:26 PM
They'd have been better served saying something like "we've put the North Stand on hold as we want to reevaluate the plans to ensure the best for the long term future of the club." Instead they witter on about 200 seats and create a bigger issue as many will feel they're being treated like idiots.
YES!
Exactly this.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 03:06:38 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
Some other clubs don't let you select a seat, you select an area of the ground and they allocate you one, ensuring you get, say 3 groups of 2 people in 6 consecutive seats rather than say, each group with an empty seat between.
I bet you what you like we have that pretty soon.
It's incredibly unpopular.
Post by: AV82EC on January 05, 2024, 03:27:08 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
Some other clubs don't let you select a seat, you select an area of the ground and they allocate you one, ensuring you get, say 3 groups of 2 people in 6 consecutive seats rather than say, each group with an empty seat between.
I bet you what you like we have that pretty soon.
It's incredibly unpopular.
But if it fills the stadium and we don’t have the single seat issue?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 03:29:36 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
Some other clubs don't let you select a seat, you select an area of the ground and they allocate you one, ensuring you get, say 3 groups of 2 people in 6 consecutive seats rather than say, each group with an empty seat between.
I bet you what you like we have that pretty soon.
It's incredibly unpopular.
But if it fills the stadium and we don’t have the single seat issue?
Fans still won't like it. Not being able to pick where you sit would go down like a lead balloon.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 03:31:33 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
There was a game a while ago where the away side didn't take the upper tier so it was available to Villa fans. From memory there was nothing from the club about it and I think it was Percy that said he grabbed tickets there but only knew about them because someone on here mentioned it.
Fulham I think, and they may have been limited numbers because it was above away supporters but they weren't publicised at all.
Post by: Dave P on January 05, 2024, 03:32:21 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 05, 2024, 03:38:30 PM
As such, putting it on hold is the right thing to do. The way it's been handled is crap though.
Perhaps there are lots of options, when you see this thread we've come up with loads, and they are doing a full assessment of them all before finalising the plan. I'm not sure there are many ways they could have gone about it without pissing someone off.
Post by: AV82EC on January 05, 2024, 03:39:20 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
Some other clubs don't let you select a seat, you select an area of the ground and they allocate you one, ensuring you get, say 3 groups of 2 people in 6 consecutive seats rather than say, each group with an empty seat between.
I bet you what you like we have that pretty soon.
It's incredibly unpopular.
But if it fills the stadium and we don’t have the single seat issue?
Fans still won't like it. Not being able to pick where you sit would go down like a lead balloon.
With Heck in charge we seem to like lead balloons so watch this space.
Post by: paul_e on January 05, 2024, 03:43:36 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
Some other clubs don't let you select a seat, you select an area of the ground and they allocate you one, ensuring you get, say 3 groups of 2 people in 6 consecutive seats rather than say, each group with an empty seat between.
I bet you what you like we have that pretty soon.
It's incredibly unpopular.
But if it fills the stadium and we don’t have the single seat issue?
Fans still won't like it. Not being able to pick where you sit would go down like a lead balloon.
More likely I suspect is the 'solution' a lot of theatres and cinemas have which is that they won't let you buy a block of seats that creates a single seat.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 05, 2024, 03:48:36 PM
I sometimes get my partner a ticket when he isn't working and for ages once I saw that sold out bit I never thought to come back and check periodically. I bet other people don't consider returns or forget to look back too.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 05, 2024, 03:51:35 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
Some other clubs don't let you select a seat, you select an area of the ground and they allocate you one, ensuring you get, say 3 groups of 2 people in 6 consecutive seats rather than say, each group with an empty seat between.
I bet you what you like we have that pretty soon.
It's incredibly unpopular.
But if it fills the stadium and we don’t have the single seat issue?
Fans still won't like it. Not being able to pick where you sit would go down like a lead balloon.
More likely I suspect is the 'solution' a lot of theatres and cinemas have which is that they won't let you buy a block of seats that creates a single seat.
But remember, a lot of this will be down to the high percentage of season ticket holders who have kept their seats a long time. If someone drops out or moves or dies, it can leave a single which may be there for years.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 03:56:01 PM
Post by: eamonn on January 05, 2024, 04:32:06 PM
The pre-war Norwich ground, The Nest took some beating:
(https://i.ibb.co/f1JQ2W4/Screenshot-2024-01-05-at-13-57-12.png) (https://ibb.co/f1JQ2W4)
The only time I ever smoked crack was in a house just behind there.
How did it go?
Post by: Villan82 on January 05, 2024, 05:05:49 PM
1. Build a new North Stand and keep playing at Villa Park with a 36,000 capacity. 18 months-24 months
2. Buy up land/houses to allow re-route of Witton Lane so that we can develop that stand
3. When the enlarged site on that side is sorted look into building the new Witton Lane Stand behind the existing Witton Lane stand, as they did at Anfield thus allowing us to keep playing at Villa Park in front of c. 40,000-50,000 (depending on the status of the North Stand) while the new Witton Lane is under construction
4. Do the Trinity Road works that were designed to get its capacity up (seating the area where the old tunnel was, reforming the exist etc.
5. When all is complete you have your new 60,000 seater stadium and we haven't had to move and we probably have spent less than a total rebuild would require.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 05, 2024, 05:08:25 PM
The pre-war Norwich ground, The Nest took some beating:
(https://i.ibb.co/f1JQ2W4/Screenshot-2024-01-05-at-13-57-12.png) (https://ibb.co/f1JQ2W4)
The only time I ever smoked crack was in a house just behind there.
How did it go?
Drew 0-0.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 05, 2024, 05:10:19 PM
The pre-war Norwich ground, The Nest took some beating:
(https://i.ibb.co/f1JQ2W4/Screenshot-2024-01-05-at-13-57-12.png) (https://ibb.co/f1JQ2W4)
The only time I ever smoked crack was in a house just behind there.
How did it go?
It’s very moreish.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 05, 2024, 05:11:22 PM
Post by: UK Redsox on January 05, 2024, 05:22:29 PM
It is if you like feeling like you’re having a heart attack.
"It's unpleasantly like being drunk."
"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"
"Ask a glass of water."
Post by: Chris Harte on January 05, 2024, 05:48:47 PM
Looking again on google maps, I wonder would this be a possibilty?Seems like the common sense plan to me.
1. Build a new North Stand and keep playing at Villa Park with a 36,000 capacity. 18 months-24 months
2. Buy up land/houses to allow re-route of Witton Lane so that we can develop that stand
3. When the enlarged site on that side is sorted look into building the new Witton Lane Stand behind the existing Witton Lane stand, as they did at Anfield thus allowing us to keep playing at Villa Park in front of c. 40,000-50,000 (depending on the status of the North Stand) while the new Witton Lane is under construction
4. Do the Trinity Road works that were designed to get its capacity up (seating the area where the old tunnel was, reforming the exist etc.
5. When all is complete you have your new 60,000 seater stadium and we haven't had to move and we probably have spent less than a total rebuild would require.
Only thing I would add is improvements to the Holte, expansion of upper and lower concourses, the lower possibly by removing or lowering (if local water table allows) the Holte Suite/Lower Grounds.
Post by: oldhill_avfc on January 05, 2024, 06:04:23 PM
You’d also be wise to make the option of clearing the houses behind whitton lane, re-routing whitton lane and ideally shutting off trinity road entirely is all tied up before you start any of the work.
If the site can be extended then I’d assume the economics point to a Spurs type visionary rebuild.
Post by: Olneythelonely on January 05, 2024, 06:25:12 PM
The pre-war Norwich ground, The Nest took some beating:
(https://i.ibb.co/f1JQ2W4/Screenshot-2024-01-05-at-13-57-12.png) (https://ibb.co/f1JQ2W4)
The only time I ever smoked crack was in a house just behind there.
How did it go?
It’s very moreish.
Not from my one go. It was bullshit.
Post by: Olneythelonely on January 05, 2024, 06:25:34 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 05, 2024, 08:02:34 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 05, 2024, 08:06:25 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?
Not necessarily, if the owners are suitably compensated to cushion the blow.
Post by: The Edge on January 05, 2024, 08:11:40 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 08:15:10 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
Post by: Gareth on January 05, 2024, 08:21:24 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?
Me too
If it was done the right way (good offers made and accepted not coerced) maybe but CPOs for a football stadium is wrong & is also very easy for us to suggest as most if not all of us don’t live on those roads
Post by: thick_mike on January 05, 2024, 08:23:09 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
(https://i.ibb.co/NghB4N4/IMG-9762.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NghB4N4)
add logo to photo app (https://imgbb.com/)
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 08:42:12 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 05, 2024, 08:44:39 PM
There may well be 200 empty seats on average but a lot of that is down to the perception that you can't buy them. If the club announced at the start of the week how many were left and they're on general sale, then updated two days before the match, they'd sell.
There was a game a while ago where the away side didn't take the upper tier so it was available to Villa fans. From memory there was nothing from the club about it and I think it was Percy that said he grabbed tickets there but only knew about them because someone on here mentioned it.
Close. I would have done but found out too late, like, from a pic in the match thread or something. Me and the kids are members but we don’t go as often as we’d like as it’s still a ball-ache to get tickets. Can anyone tell me if there’s a set time they go on sale to members? The club don’t seem to bother informing me.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 08:46:32 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Lovely. Kicking people out of their homes to help a football club would be such good publicity.
Post by: paul_e on January 05, 2024, 08:58:24 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Lovely. Kicking people out of their homes to help a football club would be such good publicity.
It's better than the alternative of doing what Liverpool did.
Post by: TelfordVilla on January 05, 2024, 08:58:53 PM
it's not like they would be made homeless. The compensation would get them somewhere much nicer than witton.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Lovely. Kicking people out of their homes to help a football club would be such good publicity.
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 09:00:38 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 05, 2024, 09:01:42 PM
It's also easy to support it when it isn't your home.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 09:09:16 PM
it's not like they would be made homeless. The compensation would get them somewhere much nicer than witton.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Lovely. Kicking people out of their homes to help a football club would be such good publicity.
Perhaps they like living in Witton.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 05, 2024, 09:14:24 PM
Much as I want us to be competing and winning trophies, it isn't worth acting like scumbags and kicking people out of their homes just so as we can make some extra money. We certainly couldn't claim to be a community club.
It's also easy to support it when it isn't your home.
Correct.
Post by: Hopadop on January 05, 2024, 09:21:36 PM
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 09:22:21 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 05, 2024, 09:33:45 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?Doug did it, there's only a couple of houses left now on Witton Rd, them terraces used to run all, down that road. Think most of them were council houses and the deal was with them
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on January 05, 2024, 09:37:34 PM
Witton Lane not Road.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?Doug did it, there's only a couple of houses left now on Witton Rd, them terraces used to run all, down that road. Think most of them were council houses and the deal was with them
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 09:50:38 PM
Post by: TelfordVilla on January 05, 2024, 10:02:49 PM
well they could stay in frigging witton then. Simply move a few streets away. Jesus christ.it's not like they would be made homeless. The compensation would get them somewhere much nicer than witton.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Lovely. Kicking people out of their homes to help a football club would be such good publicity.
Perhaps they like living in Witton.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 10:06:37 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 05, 2024, 10:38:12 PM
well they could stay in frigging witton then. Simply move a few streets away. Jesus christ.it's not like they would be made homeless. The compensation would get them somewhere much nicer than witton.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
Lovely. Kicking people out of their homes to help a football club would be such good publicity.
Perhaps they like living in Witton.
Yeah, fuck 'em, right?
Post by: Drummond on January 05, 2024, 10:38:30 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?Doug did it, there's only a couple of houses left now on Witton Rd, them terraces used to run all, down that road. Think most of them were council houses and the deal was with them
And Doug was a prick too.
Post by: Drummond on January 05, 2024, 10:39:37 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
Post by: VillaTim on January 05, 2024, 10:46:22 PM
Oh he most definitely was.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?Doug did it, there's only a couple of houses left now on Witton Rd, them terraces used to run all, down that road. Think most of them were council houses and the deal was with them
And Doug was a prick too.
Post by: Ads on January 05, 2024, 10:49:10 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
How do you know they wouldn't want 110% of the asking price of their home?
Post by: HolteL4 on January 05, 2024, 10:49:57 PM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
But they trust it when it comes to Season Ticket Renewal time, when the prices go up and we are being threatened with being replaced by one of the 30k on the waiting list.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 05, 2024, 10:52:32 PM
I assume no-one's asked whether the people who would be affected would actually want to move. If it is part of the plan then maybe find out who'd be willing to leave.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
A while back one poster here said they had a friend living behind Witton Lane who was hoping to be bought out eventually. I imagine there will be those who have the opposite sentiments, though.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 05, 2024, 10:54:38 PM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
But they trust it when it comes to Season Ticket Renewal time, when the prices go up and we are being threatened with being replaced by one of the 30k on the waiting list.
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Charge a £50 refundable deposit and the numbers on the list would vanish quicker than a Small Heath crowd being confronted by a bar of soap.
Post by: VillaTim on January 05, 2024, 10:58:41 PM
Post by: Risso on January 05, 2024, 11:12:58 PM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
I didn't say I was for it or against it, just that it's what could happen. It's only public bodies who can apply for one, and there has to be a compelling public interest case. So if it was argued that the redevelopment of Villa Park would lead to lots of jobs and have a big positive effect on the local area, then the council might consider it. In the event that a CPO was granted, if anybody didn't want to sell, then I believe that CPOs pay 10% above market value, with all legal and removal costs paid.
But as I say, I don't think it's what they're planning, so the good citizens of Witton Lane can enjoy their homes for as long as they like.
Post by: VillaTim on January 05, 2024, 11:29:23 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 06, 2024, 02:06:25 AM
I assume no-one's asked whether the people who would be affected would actually want to move. If it is part of the plan then maybe find out who'd be willing to leave.Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
A while back one poster here said they had a friend living behind Witton Lane who was hoping to be bought out eventually. I imagine there will be those who have the opposite sentiments, though.
Yep, my mate Joe, lives in Village Road.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 06, 2024, 07:28:29 AM
https://x.com/zonal_marking/status/1743179843636695434?s=46&t=fPyiXcae7CCzHj_x8UdphA
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 06, 2024, 07:47:53 AM
Having scope to attract GA+ fans from other demographics should be the part of the plan. Tourists, locals schools, sports clubs should be allocated tickets so the cumulative fan base grows.
The 200 ticker thing is clearly nonsense.
Post by: HolteL4 on January 06, 2024, 08:54:31 AM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
But they trust it when it comes to Season Ticket Renewal time, when the prices go up and we are being threatened with being replaced by one of the 30k on the waiting list.
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Charge a £50 refundable deposit and the numbers on the list would vanish quicker than a Small Heath crowd being confronted by a bar of soap.
Couldn't agree more, do that and then you have concrete evidence that the ones on the waiting list are serious and the decision to knock the north stand down is worth it
Post by: Gareth on January 06, 2024, 09:01:43 AM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
But they trust it when it comes to Season Ticket Renewal time, when the prices go up and we are being threatened with being replaced by one of the 30k on the waiting list.
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Charge a £50 refundable deposit and the numbers on the list would vanish quicker than a Small Heath crowd being confronted by a bar of soap.
100% this, would savage the list and also get those that truly want the tickets (a number of who are on here) into a better place on the list
Post by: The Man With A Stick on January 06, 2024, 09:07:17 AM
Maybe the new plan isn't to rebuild the whole thing, as only half the ground isn't fit for purpose, so they're planning to build a wraparound stand to replace the North and Witton? Something similar to the layout at Newcastle. That would obviously mean buying up all that property, etc so would explain the recent investment.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 06, 2024, 09:29:41 AM
People must keep their ST to avoid being sent to the back of the queue.
Post by: Drummond on January 06, 2024, 09:36:21 AM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
How do you know they wouldn't want 110% of the asking price of their home?
You generally don't need a CPO if people are happy to leave their home.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 06, 2024, 09:39:45 AM
People must keep their ST to avoid being sent to the back of the queue.That's a point. If you don't renew, do you go to the back of the queue? There maybe a hundred and one reasons why someone doesn't renew. Being pushed to the back just seems wrong.
As for charging people to be on the list, it's a good idea but I'd limit it to adults only. That way under 16s, as presumably non-earners, don't get charged but it would be simple enough for the club to identify adults versus kids and have an idea of how much potential growth there is. Having identified how many kids there are on the list would help identify how much they need to expand family friendly facilities. The kids, of course, being the future of our support.
Post by: Drummond on January 06, 2024, 09:42:37 AM
Is it just me that baulks at the suggestion of 'just clearing the houses away l' behind the Witton Lane?I get your point but it wouldn't be like that. AVFC could afford to compensate people handsomely and I think they would take the offer. We could offer vastly over the going rate for a terraced house in those streets and it might cost the club in the region of 5 million quid which is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.
What if they don't want to go?
CPOs I guess.
So force them out when they don't want to move, just so a few people can watch a football match. Charming.
I didn't say I was for it or against it, just that it's what could happen. It's only public bodies who can apply for one, and there has to be a compelling public interest case. So if it was argued that the redevelopment of Villa Park would lead to lots of jobs and have a big positive effect on the local area, then the council might consider it. In the event that a CPO was granted, if anybody didn't want to sell, then I believe that CPOs pay 10% above market value, with all legal and removal costs paid.
But as I say, I don't think it's what they're planning, so the good citizens of Witton Lane can enjoy their homes for as long as they like.
I know you didn't. But the CPO thing just feels wrong to me.
If the Villa were to approach all the houses that were potentially affected and asked them the question, suggesting a 50% increase in property value, it might work. However, then you're left with the next row of houses, who previously had houses next to them, now having a great big football ground etc. next to them, and so on.
Post by: Neil Hawkes on January 06, 2024, 10:11:52 AM
New North stand to increase to 50,000; OR
A newly located Villa park, with capacity 60,000 (min)?
I want us to stay where we are, but if it is unfeasible for expansion purposes, then I would reluctantly accept relocation.
Post by: villa_cads on January 06, 2024, 10:12:25 AM
If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
But they trust it when it comes to Season Ticket Renewal time, when the prices go up and we are being threatened with being replaced by one of the 30k on the waiting list.
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Charge a £50 refundable deposit and the numbers on the list would vanish quicker than a Small Heath crowd being confronted by a bar of soap.
In some ways they're effectively doing this for GA tickets with the memberships. I don't have one now and find getting tickets on general sale quite difficult. There must be decent numbers with memberships.
I'm also on the waiting list, but I'm playing the long game given the reported length of the queue and with a hope that by the time I'm offered one, my lad will be old enough (and interested!) to go.
Post by: LeeB on January 06, 2024, 10:18:49 AM
Without attracting too much vitriol, would you prefer:
New North stand to increase to 50,000; OR
A newly located Villa park, with capacity 60,000 (min)?
I want us to stay where we are, but if it is unfeasible for expansion purposes, then I would reluctantly accept relocation.
It's more practical for me.
For the first time in decades, we have a proper team and realistic ambitions to sustain it. We've had chances before but through caution and lack ambition haven't. Our peers are running around or will be in spanking 60k stadiums that shit match day revenue and we won't be, even if we'd gone ahead with the plans so we need to match that for minimum or we'll fall away.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 06, 2024, 10:24:00 AM
Without attracting too much vitriol, would you prefer:
New North stand to increase to 50,000; OR
A newly located Villa park, with capacity 60,000 (min)?
First option.
For me, a move from Villa Park would be about as welcome as changing our colours to red and white, and our name to Birmingham United.
Post by: Villan82 on January 06, 2024, 10:29:32 AM
You get to 50k and there is space and ways of getting to 60k if you really need to,
Furthermore, People talk about the hospitality/business other grounds can offer- we had (originally) planned Villa Live for some of that (events, conferences bars, restaurants etc) so we have the space on the site to compete. It need not necessarily be in the interior of the stand
I am sure we can do something on Witton Lane. A new stand wouldn't necessarily need to be higher but definitely deeper maybe with a tunnel for the road.
It's Heck who did away with Villa Live and the New North Stand so if we are falling further behind on these offerings we know where to point the finger.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 06, 2024, 10:46:15 AM
I’m not massively bothered about doing individual games these days because it’s a bit of a fuck about getting tickets, and I have no interest in sitting on my own in one of the individual seats left dotted around the ground.
But I would definitely buy a ST in a new North stand, and am pretty sure my brother would. I’d also stump up the money for an expensive one if the facilities matched the price.
It’s way more complicated than assuming a correlation between individual game attendees and those interested in ST purchasers.
Football for me has always been about routine. Years and years ago I used to go to a lot of away games because it had become a routine. When I had a ST we had a routine around beer and food in town before the game, Uber there, cab back, perhaps a few more in town after.
There was never any “are you going?” as we always were.
Individual games aren’t really like that though, it’s not the samef for me. Appreciate that sounds a bit weird but suspect I’m not the only one, I’m very much ST or (almost) nothing.
Post by: Hopadop on January 06, 2024, 11:09:09 AM
And Villa Park is a big part of the emotion for me. Leave it and it's no longer the same club, no matter the improved income and success that may bring.
Post by: Risso on January 06, 2024, 11:13:49 AM
I’ve hardly been at all for the last few seasons, after having a season ticket most years for a long time.
I’m not massively bothered about doing individual games these days because it’s a bit of a fuck about getting tickets, and I have no interest in sitting on my own in one of the individual seats left dotted around the ground.
But I would definitely buy a ST in a new North stand, and am pretty sure my brother would. I’d also stump up the money for an expensive one if the facilities matched the price.
It’s way more complicated than assuming a correlation between individual game attendees and those interested in ST purchasers.
Football for me has always been about routine. Years and years ago I used to go to a lot of away games because it had become a routine. When I had a ST we had a routine around beer and food in town before the game, Uber there, cab back, perhaps a few more in town after.
There was never any “are you going?” as we always were.
Individual games aren’t really like that though, it’s not the samef for me. Appreciate that sounds a bit weird but suspect I’m not the only one, I’m very much ST or (almost) nothing.
Well said, and I'd say that goes for the majority of fans. For me, having a season ticket means planning my life a bit. It's important to me, but it also has to fit in with general family life. If I didn't have one, I wouldn't go to many games at all, because last minute home ticket availability wouldn't work for me as it's not often that we have a weekend without some sort of kid related thing to attend/drive them to.
Post by: Drummond on January 06, 2024, 11:43:08 AM
Interesting thread on our FFP/P&S here.
https://x.com/mattburton72/status/1742567677023945041?s=46&t=GdM6cpVxe5IloByNCRheWA
That is interesting.
The most interesting bit I took away from it was the North Stand ydevelopment and the loss of revenue for the time we were without it. Ticket and merchandise etc. could make a significant difference as to whether we can afford to sign a player or not over the next 2 or 3 years.
His estimate was £4m per year, and that's based on current numbers. Put the prices up next season of course and we have increased room to play with when we're (hopefully) going to launch a Champions League campaign.
Sorry I know this is from the transfer thread but I thought it may be useful here too as a reason for the sudden halt to the plans.
Post by: algy on January 06, 2024, 11:55:16 AM
Yeah, we've ended up getting memberships just because getting enough seats together without one is near impossible. Very much begrudge paying it mind, but at least it means I can still go and see the Villa for the handful of Sat 3pm kickoffs that are still left!If they don’t trust the waiting list data - how about seeing if people will put money down?
I certainly would. I’m not sure how fair that would be, but it would be a way of judging it.
But they trust it when it comes to Season Ticket Renewal time, when the prices go up and we are being threatened with being replaced by one of the 30k on the waiting list.
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Charge a £50 refundable deposit and the numbers on the list would vanish quicker than a Small Heath crowd being confronted by a bar of soap.
In some ways they're effectively doing this for GA tickets with the memberships. I don't have one now and find getting tickets on general sale quite difficult. There must be decent numbers with memberships.
I'm also on the waiting list, but I'm playing the long game given the reported length of the queue and with a hope that by the time I'm offered one, my lad will be old enough (and interested!) to go.
Post by: algy on January 06, 2024, 12:04:17 PM
I'd also stay at Villa Park. We're all in this because of emotion. None of it makes sense. If you want to be hard headed and logical about it you might as well buy some shares and support the mighty Tesco against Sainsbury's.This.
And Villa Park is a big part of the emotion for me. Leave it and it's no longer the same club, no matter the improved income and success that may bring.
I'd not be against a city centre ground in the right circumstances, but I don't think those circumstances are realistic (that we build a red brick Mecca of football & architecture basically).
However, in the absence of my idealistic vision - I think there's so much of my Villa supporting tied up with Villa Park itself.
At the Burnley game it struck me that I was sitting with my little lad in the same bit of the ground (Witton End/North Stand) that my granddad first went to see the Villa, and where my dad stood when he was younger. We've all got the same name (family tradition, alternate between being called by our first and middle name ), so it's 4 generations of Villa supporting Thomas'/Algy's , all watching same team playing on the same bit of grass from the same end. That won't be true if we ever move.
Also I like going to Ali Baba's after the game for my chips. Nice chips there.
Post by: Ads on January 06, 2024, 12:12:06 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 06, 2024, 12:19:01 PM
Stay at Villa Park every time.Tunnelling is ridiculous money , can't see that happenning.
You get to 50k and there is space and ways of getting to 60k if you really need to,
Furthermore, People talk about the hospitality/business other grounds can offer- we had (originally) planned Villa Live for some of that (events, conferences bars, restaurants etc) so we have the space on the site to compete. It need not necessarily be in the interior of the stand
I am sure we can do something on Witton Lane. A new stand wouldn't necessarily need to be higher but definitely deeper maybe with a tunnel for the road.
It's Heck who did away with Villa Live and the New North Stand so if we are falling further behind on these offerings we know where to point the finger.
If we were to move to a City Centre ground it would need to be over our side of town and preferably near Dartmouth Circus / Aston Uni area would be superb , some good pubs round there - Sack of Potatoes / Bulls Head / Gunmakers Arms and not too far to the Bartons.
Post by: TelfordVilla on January 06, 2024, 12:19:31 PM
Post by: Risso on January 06, 2024, 12:33:46 PM
I'd also stay at Villa Park. We're all in this because of emotion. None of it makes sense. If you want to be hard headed and logical about it you might as well buy some shares and support the mighty Tesco against Sainsbury's.This.
And Villa Park is a big part of the emotion for me. Leave it and it's no longer the same club, no matter the improved income and success that may bring.
I'd not be against a city centre ground in the right circumstances, but I don't think those circumstances are realistic (that we build a red brick Mecca of football & architecture basically).
However, in the absence of my idealistic vision - I think there's so much of my Villa supporting tied up with Villa Park itself.
At the Burnley game it struck me that I was sitting with my little lad in the same bit of the ground (Witton End/North Stand) that my granddad first went to see the Villa, and where my dad stood when he was younger. We've all got the same name (family tradition, alternate between being called by our first and middle name ), so it's 4 generations of Villa supporting Thomas'/Algy's , all watching same team playing on the same bit of grass from the same end. That won't be true if we ever move.
Also I like going to Ali Baba's after the game for my chips. Nice chips there.
My great grandad was watching at Wellington Road, this modern thing means nothing to me! ;)
Post by: Des Little on January 06, 2024, 12:38:33 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 06, 2024, 12:42:41 PM
I'd also stay at Villa Park. We're all in this because of emotion. None of it makes sense. If you want to be hard headed and logical about it you might as well buy some shares and support the mighty Tesco against Sainsbury's.
P!ss off, I'm not supporting those Baggies wannabes, it's Sainsbury's every time.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 06, 2024, 12:46:37 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 06, 2024, 12:52:18 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 06, 2024, 12:54:23 PM
Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?If you scroll back about 50 pages that option was kicked about a bit
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 06, 2024, 12:54:35 PM
Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?
It's totally unsuited for football, too much of the seating is uncovered, transport is much worse and the locals would kick up a fuss.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 06, 2024, 12:56:18 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 06, 2024, 01:00:47 PM
Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?
It's totally unsuited for football, too much of the seating is uncovered, transport is much worse and the locals would kick up a fuss.
The Hawthorns would be the only realistic choice.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 06, 2024, 01:04:03 PM
Only 26,668 capacity according to Wiki.Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?
It's totally unsuited for football, too much of the seating is uncovered, transport is much worse and the locals would kick up a fuss.
The Hawthorns would be the only realistic choice.
Old Trafford , Emptyhad? if it was for one season.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 06, 2024, 01:04:43 PM
Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?
It's totally unsuited for football, too much of the seating is uncovered, transport is much worse and the locals would kick up a fuss.
The Hawthorns would be the only realistic choice.
I agree. It would be nice to work together with our old friendly rivals in a spirit of sportsmanship and community
Post by: VillaTim on January 06, 2024, 01:04:58 PM
Has any one come up with a suitable location for a new ground?Town centre seems the least contentious. NEC no. Perry Barr no.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 06, 2024, 01:06:16 PM
Is there a specific available space in the City Centre?Has any one come up with a suitable location for a new ground?Town centre seems the least contentious. NEC no. Perry Barr no.
Post by: VillaTim on January 06, 2024, 01:07:51 PM
There's plenty. Whether they are affordable or the council would want it are other matters . Might be somewhat easier now with city centre high street retail etc dying on its feet it may be a way of injecting some life back into town . I'd rather stay in B6 but if it was a move town centre is the most logical .Is there a specific available space in the City Centre?Has any one come up with a suitable location for a new ground?Town centre seems the least contentious. NEC no. Perry Barr no.
Post by: Risso on January 06, 2024, 01:09:27 PM
Only 26,668 capacity according to Wiki.Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?
It's totally unsuited for football, too much of the seating is uncovered, transport is much worse and the locals would kick up a fuss.
The Hawthorns would be the only realistic choice.
Old Trafford , Emptyhad? if it was for one season.
If we ever did decide to rebuild/move, Leicester will probably be 40,000 by then, which would make far more sense. Trains direct from New Street to Leicester, or quick dash up the M69.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 06, 2024, 01:11:21 PM
I doubt anywhere has the space for parking or infrastructure for getting traffic in and out though.There's plenty. Whether they are affordable or the council would want it are other mattersIs there a specific available space in the City Centre?Has any one come up with a suitable location for a new ground?Town centre seems the least contentious. NEC no. Perry Barr no.
Also there is no benefit as we are not allowed to drink in town.
Post by: Risso on January 06, 2024, 01:12:16 PM
There's plenty. Whether they are affordable or the council would want it are other mattersIs there a specific available space in the City Centre?Has any one come up with a suitable location for a new ground?Town centre seems the least contentious. NEC no. Perry Barr no.
I was reading about Comcast the other day, and for developments they've liked to have a stadium tied in to lots of other uses like retail, hotels, other leisure and restaurants etc. I guess it makes more sense if you want a return on your investment to have a site that's bringing in rental income all year round, rather than just on match days. On that basis, I reckon they'd look at an out of town location.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 06, 2024, 01:12:46 PM
handy for you though mate.Only 26,668 capacity according to Wiki.Is it beyond the realms to move into an expanded Alexander stadium for two years while we rebuild VP? The capacity was 30k for the games so at the very least we’d accommodate season ticket holders. Is that a non starter?
It's totally unsuited for football, too much of the seating is uncovered, transport is much worse and the locals would kick up a fuss.
The Hawthorns would be the only realistic choice.
Old Trafford , Emptyhad? if it was for one season.
If we ever did decide to rebuild/move, Leicester will probably be 40,000 by then, which would make far more sense. Trains direct from New Street to Leicester, or quick dash up the M69.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 06, 2024, 01:14:53 PM
If we ever did decide to rebuild/move, Leicester will probably be 40,000 by then, which would make far more sense. Trains direct from New Street to Leicester, or quick dash up the M69.
Only if they throw in some claret and blue clappers as part of the deal.
Post by: Simon Page on January 06, 2024, 01:15:40 PM
If we ever did decide to rebuild/move, Leicester will probably be 40,000 by then, which would make far more sense. Trains direct from New Street to Leicester, or quick dash up the M69.
You really are determined to have a couple of years of shorter journeys aren't you? ;-)
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 06, 2024, 01:19:58 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 06, 2024, 01:21:29 PM
I doubt anywhere has the space for parking or infrastructure for getting traffic in and out though.There's plenty. Whether they are affordable or the council would want it are other mattersIs there a specific available space in the City Centre?Has any one come up with a suitable location for a new ground?Town centre seems the least contentious. NEC no. Perry Barr no.
Also there is no benefit as we are not allowed to drink in town.
Surely, in 2024, parking would be the least important factor in any decision. They ought to be making it as easy as possible to not drive to the ground (in the unlikely event that we're moving, which we're not).
Post by: VillaTim on January 06, 2024, 01:29:24 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 06, 2024, 01:34:21 PM
If it was a city centre ground nobody would need to come in a car (or not as many for sure ) . It's not happening so all hypothetical talk. I like newcastles ground location in proximity to the town , seems to work wellThe number that currently drive that would have better non car access will be at least matched by the increase in capacity.
The traffic in the centre of Brum on busy days is a nightmare, so they would have to consider the transport impact and let’s faceit Birmingham has been pretty useless at transport infrastructure.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 06, 2024, 01:35:52 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 06, 2024, 01:45:34 PM
Out of city altogether, or right in the city, or some other place all come with their own negatives. We have something precious.
My preference is a stand-by stand approach as in the past but if absolutely necessary I could take us relocating for a year or two so long as we get back to Villa Park in its present location.
Post by: AV82EC on January 06, 2024, 01:56:58 PM
If it was a city centre ground nobody would need to come in a car (or not as many for sure ) . It's not happening so all hypothetical talk. I like newcastles ground location in proximity to the town , seems to work wellThe number that currently drive that would have better non car access will be at least matched by the increase in capacity.
The traffic in the centre of Brum on busy days is a nightmare, so they would have to consider the transport impact and let’s faceit Birmingham has been pretty useless at transport infrastructure.
Birmingham like every other regional city is only useless at infrastructure because all the money for the last 50 years has been spent in London and the greater SE.
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 06, 2024, 02:00:10 PM
A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Post by: The Edge on January 06, 2024, 02:03:47 PM
And Manchester. Their tram network has had billions spent on it since that tosser George Osborne decided to make the shithole his love child.If it was a city centre ground nobody would need to come in a car (or not as many for sure ) . It's not happening so all hypothetical talk. I like newcastles ground location in proximity to the town , seems to work wellThe number that currently drive that would have better non car access will be at least matched by the increase in capacity.
The traffic in the centre of Brum on busy days is a nightmare, so they would have to consider the transport impact and let’s faceit Birmingham has been pretty useless at transport infrastructure.
Birmingham like every other regional city is only useless at infrastructure because all the money for the last 50 years has been spent in London and the greater SE.
Post by: The Edge on January 06, 2024, 02:05:08 PM
I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Post by: Gareth on January 06, 2024, 02:21:08 PM
I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Beware a shift at Longbridge just finished so they’ll be off home to shave their heads then into town to watch our game at 5.30 in those bars
Post by: VillaTim on January 06, 2024, 02:24:32 PM
Good point. Move on to Project LichfieldA city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Post by: Risso on January 06, 2024, 02:26:24 PM
If we ever did decide to rebuild/move, Leicester will probably be 40,000 by then, which would make far more sense. Trains direct from New Street to Leicester, or quick dash up the M69.
You really are determined to have a couple of years of shorter journeys aren't you? ;-)
That would mean going into Leicester though!
Post by: The Edge on January 06, 2024, 02:29:17 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep my Luke clobber covered up.I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Beware a shift at Longbridge just finished so they’ll be off home to shave their heads then into town to watch our game at 5.30 in those bars
Post by: Gareth on January 06, 2024, 02:34:42 PM
Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep my Luke clobber coveted up.I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Beware a shift at Longbridge just finished so they’ll be off home to shave their heads then into town to watch our game at 5.30 in those bars
If Mark One is still open get yourself down there for some new clobber so you for it :-)
Post by: The Edge on January 06, 2024, 02:46:42 PM
It's open. I've just bought some flares (that's trousers for the yoof) and a lovely Paisley tank top. Panic over I should blend right in now. Phew!Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep my Luke clobber coveted up.I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Beware a shift at Longbridge just finished so they’ll be off home to shave their heads then into town to watch our game at 5.30 in those bars
If Mark One is still open get yourself down there for some new clobber so you for it :-)
Post by: Gareth on January 06, 2024, 02:48:33 PM
It's open. I've just bought some flares (that's trousers for the yoof) and a lovely Paisley tank top. Panic over I should blend right in now. Phew!Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep my Luke clobber coveted up.I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Beware a shift at Longbridge just finished so they’ll be off home to shave their heads then into town to watch our game at 5.30 in those bars
If Mark One is still open get yourself down there for some new clobber so you for it :-)
:-)
Post by: john e on January 06, 2024, 02:49:59 PM
There’s a brand-new Luke shop opened in Milton Keynes shopping Centre
I went in there the other day some nice stuff in there if a bit pricey, I can never understand why anyone who knows anything about football and doesn’t support Villa would wear it though
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 06, 2024, 02:55:24 PM
It's open. I've just bought some flares (that's trousers for the yoof) and a lovely Paisley tank top. Panic over I should blend right in now. Phew!Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep my Luke clobber coveted up.I'm currently in town drinking with my brother but only because Blues are in Hull. Obviously.A city centre ground would be great.
That’s Nose territory isn’t it? None of us come from Birmingham.
Beware a shift at Longbridge just finished so they’ll be off home to shave their heads then into town to watch our game at 5.30 in those bars
If Mark One is still open get yourself down there for some new clobber so you for it :-)
:-)
This part of the thread has really made me chuckle, thanks 😃
Post by: The Edge on January 06, 2024, 02:59:26 PM
Talking about Luke clobberYou should look out for promos there's loads going about. Pete the Canadian Villain usually has promos on his you tube channel.
There’s a brand-new Luke shop opened in Milton Keynes shopping Centre
I went in there the other day some nice stuff in there if a bit pricey, I can never understand why anyone who knows anything about football and doesn’t support Villa would wear it though
Post by: SamTheMouse on January 06, 2024, 07:09:36 PM
Edit: I was so bored I even got my threads confused.
Edit edit: Like the people buying Luke clothing.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 06, 2024, 07:26:25 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 10:23:07 AM
It is bizarre especially with Euro 2028 marked down for Villa Park.
I know some think there is a grand master plan but I don't see it. Heck has ripped up the entire rationale for a new crest as announced in 2022 - probably because it is cheaper - and I think that's what this bonkers decision comes down to too. Cost. And you can be sure he will make the pips squeeze with prices next year. So instead of looking forward to a 50,000 Villa Park it is more likely he will drive people away from our current 42,000 Villa Park.
I genuinely believe this man is an absolute disaster who will blow the best opportunity we have had in 40 years to become the club we know we can be. Yeah global this, yeah global that but it wasn't global this or global that which got us out of our rut in the 2010s and it is the base you have to cater for first and foremost.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 09, 2024, 10:31:34 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67920774
Admittedly, it'll need scaling up a bit to match our needs.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 09, 2024, 10:42:28 AM
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 11:30:13 AM
Post by: Stu on January 09, 2024, 11:38:16 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 09, 2024, 11:39:06 AM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the result is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.It's a hell of a lot closer to bridging the gap than sticking with a sub-par 40k stadium with outdated facilities and inadequate hospitality offering.
We could have been in the new North in 2-3 years, with Emery still at the helm. Whilst only a theoretical 7k increase in capacity, it would probably have massively increased hospitality space and had a far bigger impact on revenue than 7k seats would suggest.
We're now probably looking at closer to a 10-year time span before we see anything tangible.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 09, 2024, 11:42:20 AM
Maybe Heck is planning to take this on...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67920774
You'd think so, balls-ups are his speciality.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 11:42:31 AM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
You are going to be as disappointed about a grand vision as I am currently about the cancelled North Stand
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 09, 2024, 11:43:11 AM
Talking of costs, the Newcastle ticket prices are mental. £48 cheapest adult, £80 in the Trinity posh seats.
£96 for an adult and child on the Holte. Fucking outrageous.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 11:53:29 AM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Post by: chrisw1 on January 09, 2024, 11:58:23 AM
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:02:30 PM
Sheffield Utd have planning permission to expand to 40k. It's doing nothing for several years that will get us left behind, not building one of the best stands in the country.
Exactly.
For 80 years Villa Park was elite. But it has stood still for the past 20 years. The lack of vision is simply extraordinary. It is the worst decision since 2018, by far
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:06:18 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the result is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.It's a hell of a lot closer to bridging the gap than sticking with a sub-par 40k stadium with outdated facilities and inadequate hospitality offering.
We could have been in the new North in 2-3 years, with Emery still at the helm. Whilst only a theoretical 7k increase in capacity, it would probably have massively increased hospitality space and had a far bigger impact on revenue than 7k seats would suggest.
We're now probably looking at closer to a 10-year time span before we see anything tangible.
8 thousand extra seats, maybe 25% of which are some 1888 style tickets doesn't come close.
Save the £100m and think bigger.
Post by: Drummond on January 09, 2024, 12:08:02 PM
Sheffield Utd have planning permission to expand to 40k. It's doing nothing for several years that will get us left behind, not building one of the best stands in the country.
The Blades applied successfully for planning permission from Sheffield City Council in 2017 to extend Bramall Lane’s south stand, adding an extra 5,400 seats, raising overall capacity to around 38,000. Separate proposals to extend the Kop stand would lift it beyond 40,000. The club has subsequently updated the application to keep the permissions alive, but with owner Prince Abdullah bin Musaid Al Saud putting the newly-promoted team up for sale, the plans appear to be on hold for now.
Those plans aren't being talked about by anyone here.
*edited to say, and by 'here' I mean in Sheffield.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:09:15 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
Post by: Des Little on January 09, 2024, 12:10:37 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 09, 2024, 12:10:40 PM
And it's about far more than the seats. It's about the lounges, restaurants etc. We have loads of space on that side of the ground so can really go to town on the backup space to make up for the restrictions of the Witton footplate.
What's the point of thinking bigger if you've missed the boat?
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:10:49 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
We aren't Spurs and we aren't London. My gut tells me one or two stands like that, for the moment, would suffice and rethink later.
Post by: LeeB on January 09, 2024, 12:11:28 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
Yeah, it's not the seat numbers that's the problem, as has been extensively discussed previously.
Post by: Drummond on January 09, 2024, 12:11:45 PM
Sheffield Utd have planning permission to expand to 40k. It's doing nothing for several years that will get us left behind, not building one of the best stands in the country.
Exactly.
For 80 years Villa Park was elite. But it has stood still for the past 20 years. The lack of vision is simply extraordinary. It is the worst decision since 2018, by far
Ask fans of other clubs which grounds they like the best and Villa Park is always in the mix as a favourite, regardless of the shit service etc.
Post by: Gareth on January 09, 2024, 12:12:04 PM
Talking of costs, the Newcastle ticket prices are mental. £48 cheapest adult, £80 in the Trinity posh seats.
£96 for an adult and child on the Holte. Fucking outrageous.
I reckon next year you can add £30 minimum to that….they are gonna test the support with price increases next season I’m sure…42k (or 39k home CUSTOMERS) paying premium prices to maximise revenues.
The real test being if we revert to being mid table or lower again.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:13:23 PM
If my ST goes up as expected next season I'll be bailing out. £70 per match is beyond my threshold.
It's like they actually want empty seats in a 42k stadium rather than a full 50k stadium.
I want to be wrong but I feel the decisions over the past 6 months will ensure we squander our best ever chance to get this right. I am so disiappointed with Heck.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 09, 2024, 12:13:32 PM
If my ST goes up as expected next season I'll be bailing out. £70 per match is beyond my threshold.
I will be very surprised if season tickets don't go up again next season.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:15:12 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 09, 2024, 12:17:39 PM
Why aren't we doing anything for a decade?Because if we're staying where we are it will take that long to get site assembly, CPO, design, planning and build completed.
If we're moving, the timescale won't be that different once you factor in site finding and assembly etc.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:18:11 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
Yeah, it's not the seat numbers that's the problem, as has been extensively discussed previously.
Indeed, as the gentleman well knows too.
We spend £100m on the North. Great, Villa Park has 25% of what Everton, West Ham, Spurs have, before we get onto actual heavy hitters like Man City, Arsenal etc.
Flatten next door, rebuild the lot. There's nothing left of Villa Park from 80 years ago. The best stand isn't even as old as my brother and he's not 30 till September.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 12:19:05 PM
Ask fans of other clubs which grounds they like the best and Villa Park is always in the mix as a favourite, regardless of the shit service etc.
They don't have to put up with the shit service for 19 games a year. I quite like Everton as an old historic ground, but it's a terrible experience actually going there. It's like driving a classic car. You can admire the polished walnut dash but the lack of aircon and satnav is going to piss you off if you drove it every day.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:20:01 PM
Why aren't we doing anything for a decade?
To lie about the extent of consultation on the new badge is one thing. To lie about not staying at Villa Park would be in another ball park.
Post by: Drummond on January 09, 2024, 12:21:21 PM
Ask fans of other clubs which grounds they like the best and Villa Park is always in the mix as a favourite, regardless of the shit service etc.
They don't have to put up with the shit service for 19 games a year. I quite like Everton as an old historic ground, but it's a terrible experience actually going there. It's like driving a classic car. You can admire the polished walnut dash but the lack of aircon and satnav is going to piss you off if you drove it every day.
Yet will fill* the ground every match, regardless. The club are on to a winner, or at least should be if they actually pulled their fingers out with the service etc.
*apart from 200 odd seats TV and LG etc.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:21:53 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
Yeah, it's not the seat numbers that's the problem, as has been extensively discussed previously.
Indeed, as the gentleman well knows too.
We spend £100m on the North. Great, Villa Park has 25% of what Everton, West Ham, Spurs have, before we get onto actual heavy hitters like Man City, Arsenal etc.
Flatten next door, rebuild the lot. There's nothing left of Villa Park from 80 years ago. The best stand isn't even as old as my brother and he's not 30 till September.
You say that but I disagree. We did rebuild other stands in a way that kept the aesthetic of Villa Park (internally, at least). You watch a game from say 1980 and you know its Villa Park. There is real character to that Holte Trinity corner, whether it is with the original stands or the new ones.
Sorry, but I cannot agree with you. Villa Park is Villa Park and I honestly think we would be crazy to leave
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 09, 2024, 12:22:37 PM
The economics of a new build will not stack up unless it is based in town, with the aim at maximising the number of concerts that are held there. Putting the kibosh on the North Stand means we are going to be stuck in a 42k stadium for the foreseeable future.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:23:03 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
We aren't Spurs and we aren't London. My gut tells me one or two stands like that, for the moment, would suffice and rethink later.
If we don't think we can compete with Spurs, who haven't won the league since colour television was invented then I'm giving up football to go read through VillaDawgs posts on their accounts until I croak.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 12:23:31 PM
Ask fans of other clubs which grounds they like the best and Villa Park is always in the mix as a favourite, regardless of the shit service etc.
They don't have to put up with the shit service for 19 games a year. I quite like Everton as an old historic ground, but it's a terrible experience actually going there. It's like driving a classic car. You can admire the polished walnut dash but the lack of aircon and satnav is going to piss you off if you drove it every day.
Yet will fill* the ground every match, regardless. The club are on to a winner, or at least should be if they actually pulled their fingers out with the service etc.
*apart from 200 odd seats TV and LG etc.
We'd fill the Sty twice over. Doesn't make it a good ground.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:24:00 PM
Liverpool have managed to expand Anfield to more or less the same size as Spurs' ground at about a third of the outlay, and Villa Park has a lot more in common with Anfield than it ever did with WHL. Extending the North Stand, and then rebuilding Witton Lane should it ever become feasible has to be more cost effective than planning to fully rebuild on the same site - 2 stands built along similar lines to the ones that have gone up at Anfield could get Villa Park up to 65k and would give us more than enough corporate and GA+ options.
The economics of a new build will not stack up unless it is based in town, with the aim at maximising the number of concerts that are held there. Putting the kibosh on the North Stand means we are going to be stuck in a 42k stadium for the foreseeable future.
You have put it better than I ever could. Well said.
I was so looking forward to this project, it is so disappointing to see them do this.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:25:26 PM
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 12:26:02 PM
If we don't think we can compete with Spurs, who haven't won the league since colour television was invented then I'm giving up football to go read through VillaDawgs posts on their accounts until I croak.
He obviously means on revenue from the ground, not in a footballing sense. I've said before, when we were there on the first day back in the Prem, I got talking to a Spurs supporter who'd spent £80K each for him and his son on two enhanced TV/LG type offerings for tens years, so £8K a season.
Post by: LeeB on January 09, 2024, 12:26:48 PM
That's changed, we celebrate our wonderful history but we have that history because we were bold and thought big and we need to be that once more if we're going to sustain what we're doing now.
We're a football the club, the greatest of all, not a museum.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 12:27:44 PM
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:28:24 PM
If we don't think we can compete with Spurs, who haven't won the league since colour television was invented then I'm giving up football to go read through VillaDawgs posts on their accounts until I croak.
He obviously means on revenue from the ground, not in a footballing sense. I've said before, when we were there on the first day back in the Prem, I got talking to a Spurs supporter who'd spent £80K each for him and his son on two enhanced TV/LG type offerings for tens years, so £8K a season.
A lot of cash. We have plenty of rich fans too that come from far and wide to watch us...
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:28:54 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
We aren't Spurs and we aren't London. My gut tells me one or two stands like that, for the moment, would suffice and rethink later.
If we don't think we can compete with Spurs, who haven't won the league since colour television was invented then I'm giving up football to go read through VillaDawgs posts on their accounts until I croak.
I meant in terms of London prosperity and what they can do. I feel we are a more working class club, and that sustained us through the grim years and we would do well to remember that
Post by: chrisw1 on January 09, 2024, 12:31:44 PM
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:31:50 PM
I've always wanted to stay put and been proud of the history and high status the ground is held in by others, but the last 12 months have made me reflect on that and part of it was in the absence of actually competing anymore.
That's changed, we celebrate our wonderful history but we have that history because we were bold and thought big and we need to be that once more if we're going to sustain what we're doing now.
We're a football the club, the greatest of all, not a museum.
Exactly. The fact the ground is like Trigger's broom should alleviate sentimentality. A pointless emotion that anchors you from moving forwards. Stadiums are imperial. Nothing has changed since Vespasian built a pretty famous one in Rome. Villa Park is glorious, but its a faded legacy. Want to make a statement? Build and think bigger- a seemingly impossible task these days for the UK and lamentable self deprecating Brummies. Good job we have some Americans at the helm.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:31:56 PM
Liverpool and Man United shouldn't be in the equation. Nobody else in the 92 can compete for tourism fan with them. Liverpool on match day is unreal when they're all about. They kick my mates out their season ticket seats for Europe to charge £700 for a package that includes a meal at Aintree and a coach to the ground and he just sits in a regular seat on the side. Ignore them, it's a whole different ball game.
Hang on! Aren't you contradicting yourself? You are saying we need to do a Spurs. build a 60k new stadium to absorb in more cash from hospitality and all the bells and whistles. We re countering- why can't we do a Liverpool and focus on developing our existing home and you are saying we can't do that because they are in a different sphere?
Post by: LeeB on January 09, 2024, 12:32:11 PM
I'd be up for a new ground, either at VP or elsewhere, preferrably as close to the city centre as possible. But I just don't see it happening.
You may be right, I honestly think there's no decision either way but with the new investment they've decided to seriously look into it before going ahead with the North Stand.
Also, had it not been a bit of a pain in the arse regarding moving the infrastructure under it and they could have got away with keeping a good chunk open through construction they might have gone ahead anyway.
Post by: Gareth on January 09, 2024, 12:35:03 PM
If my ST goes up as expected next season I'll be bailing out. £70 per match is beyond my threshold.
I will be very surprised if season tickets don't go up again next season.
I still think that is what a lot of this is about, they will test the existing fanbase and the waiting list to its extremes to see if there is the appetite to fill a 50k ground game after game paying premium prices.
Suspect there will be a good few in the same position as Des if they ramp 10-15% or even more of n certain sections - but they don’t care less if a customer is 50 years loyal been to one game…it’s the customers money they want
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:36:33 PM
Liverpool and Man United shouldn't be in the equation. Nobody else in the 92 can compete for tourism fan with them. Liverpool on match day is unreal when they're all about. They kick my mates out their season ticket seats for Europe to charge £700 for a package that includes a meal at Aintree and a coach to the ground and he just sits in a regular seat on the side. Ignore them, it's a whole different ball game.
Hang on! Aren't you contradicting yourself? You are saying we need to do a Spurs. build a 60k new stadium to absorb in more cash from hospitality and all the bells and whistles. We re countering- why can't we do a Liverpool and focus on developing our existing home and you are saying we can't do that because they are in a different sphere?
As we haven't had a campaign to turn L4 into an incredibly unsafe place for 15 years like something out of season 5 Sopranos, driving down pretty cheap land prices anyway (in an already rough area) to get what we want. And no, saying we cannot compete with Liverpool isn't a contradiction. We can't. Nobody but Man United, Real Madrid, Barca etc can.
Post by: AV82EC on January 09, 2024, 12:38:27 PM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
Spurs match day income is around £60m a season more now than it was at their old ground.
We aren't Spurs and we aren't London. My gut tells me one or two stands like that, for the moment, would suffice and rethink later.
If we don't think we can compete with Spurs, who haven't won the league since colour television was invented then I'm giving up football to go read through VillaDawgs posts on their accounts until I croak.
I meant in terms of London prosperity and what they can do. I feel we are a more working class club, and that sustained us through the grim years and we would do well to remember that
You may feel we’re a working class club but would the actual data back that up. And what does working class mean anymore anyway? The demographic consensus of working/middle/upper
Class has been blown out of the water over the past 40 years it’s hardly worth the paper it’s written on. We attract support from all sorts of people across the economic spectrum I’d rather we avoided lumping ourselves in with that lot over the road who seem to take some perverse pride in describing themselves as working class. And I’m as middle class as they come and I’ve done just as much as anyone to sustain us through the grim years as any working class fan.
Post by: Drummond on January 09, 2024, 12:38:48 PM
Ask fans of other clubs which grounds they like the best and Villa Park is always in the mix as a favourite, regardless of the shit service etc.
They don't have to put up with the shit service for 19 games a year. I quite like Everton as an old historic ground, but it's a terrible experience actually going there. It's like driving a classic car. You can admire the polished walnut dash but the lack of aircon and satnav is going to piss you off if you drove it every day.
Yet will fill* the ground every match, regardless. The club are on to a winner, or at least should be if they actually pulled their fingers out with the service etc.
*apart from 200 odd seats TV and LG etc.
We'd fill the Sty twice over. Doesn't make it a good ground.
I guess it depends what experience you want at a football match. Ultimately, I want to stand, be able to get a beer (other drinks would also be good) and a bite to eat without too much trouble. A roof would be preferable if it's raining too. We have the facilities, we just don't have the service.
I've never understood why they don't pay staff double what they're on and employ double the number because the profits from sales of food and drink would go up exponentially.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:38:59 PM
Although I'm pro the North Stand development, I think people are too optimistic about the likelihood of a Witton Stand redev to follow. CPOing residential property is always very difficult, incredibly controversial and time-consuming. And at current house prices, it would also be eye-wateringly expensive.
The houses are about 160-180k around the ground.
Post by: Ads on January 09, 2024, 12:39:59 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 09, 2024, 12:41:51 PM
I've always wanted to stay put and been proud of the history and high status the ground is held in by others, but the last 12 months have made me reflect on that and part of it was in the absence of actually competing anymore.
That's changed, we celebrate our wonderful history but we have that history because we were bold and thought big and we need to be that once more if we're going to sustain what we're doing now.
We're a football the club, the greatest of all, not a museum.
Exactly. The fact the ground is like Trigger's broom should alleviate sentimentality. A pointless emotion that anchors you from moving forwards. Stadiums are imperial. Nothing has changed since Vespasian built a pretty famous one in Rome. Villa Park is glorious, but its a faded legacy. Want to make a statement? Build and think bigger- a seemingly impossible task these days for the UK and lamentable self deprecating Brummies. Good job we have some Americans at the helm.
I do get what you're saying, but if you look about, which fans, with new grounds, are happier than they were in their old ones?
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:41:57 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 09, 2024, 12:42:37 PM
The fact that Liverpool and Man Utd are such massive behemoths worldwide and pull in merch and sponsorships that dwarf everybody else is the reason why we need to maximise commercial matchday revenue to compete.
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 12:44:55 PM
Some serious word twisting happening in this thread.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 09, 2024, 12:46:14 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with us buying up houses, but we can't follow their example, we would have to let them back out to the community until we need to use them.
Post by: AV82EC on January 09, 2024, 12:51:32 PM
OK. I must have totally imagined the reaction to Terrace View, Lower Grounds etc.Never mind me!
Those ideas aren’t anything to do with class though are they? Theyre additional revenue generators for anyone who can afford it. The fact I think they’re woeful, poorly thought through and poorly communicated and implemented has nothing to do with the economic make up of the support.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 09, 2024, 12:53:17 PM
Although I'm pro the North Stand development, I think people are too optimistic about the likelihood of a Witton Stand redev to follow. CPOing residential property is always very difficult, incredibly controversial and time-consuming. And at current house prices, it would also be eye-wateringly expensive.Getting the North Stand built, with as much corporate/GA+ as the club thinks is appropriate keeps us iwithn touching distance off the Everton's. I believe the plan included an upgrade to the corporate in the Trinity too.
Once this was done an assessment can be made on whether a new Witton Lane stand is needed. The talk is of pushing to 60,000 (so a WLS with an extra 10k seats). This may not be necessary.
Another though that I don't think has been mentioned. White Hart Lane, The Emirates and Everton. They will struggle to expand beyond what they have in terms of capacity. Keeping VP of a modular design (I.e, broadly separate stands) allows the potential to further grow the ground.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 09, 2024, 12:54:12 PM
Liverpool were awful. This attracted squatters, drug users, vermin, etc.
And Stewart Downing.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 09, 2024, 12:54:56 PM
Liverpool were awful. This attracted squatters, drug users, vermin, etc.
And Stewart Downing.
;D
Post by: Simon Page on January 09, 2024, 12:59:35 PM
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 01:03:03 PM
I've always wanted to stay put and been proud of the history and high status the ground is held in by others, but the last 12 months have made me reflect on that and part of it was in the absence of actually competing anymore.
That's changed, we celebrate our wonderful history but we have that history because we were bold and thought big and we need to be that once more if we're going to sustain what we're doing now.
We're a football the club, the greatest of all, not a museum.
Exactly. The fact the ground is like Trigger's broom should alleviate sentimentality. A pointless emotion that anchors you from moving forwards. Stadiums are imperial. Nothing has changed since Vespasian built a pretty famous one in Rome. Villa Park is glorious, but its a faded legacy. Want to make a statement? Build and think bigger- a seemingly impossible task these days for the UK and lamentable self deprecating Brummies. Good job we have some Americans at the helm.
I do get what you're saying, but if you look about, which fans, with new grounds, are happier than they were in their old ones?
Well, the ones who never went to the old one for a start. Anybody mid twenties or younger isn't even going to remember Highbury very much, if at all. I don't think many Tottenham fans would choose to go back to WHL as it was, but you'd probably get more of a take up for Upton Park from Spam fans. They key is therefore, make it good. Even with West Ham, if you point out the advantages it's given them, ie 60K stadium for the princely sum of fuck all, I don't think they'd go back to being a yo-yo team at Upton Park.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 01:04:08 PM
One of the reasons I struggle to get too worked up about this is we seem to be arguing over what would be the best way to be able to charge more for attending matches. I'm guessing, but I don't think a new Witton End, Witton Lane or ground will do anything to improve access for the average fan. Better corporate offer, more padded seats, higher prices. All lovely if that's what you'd like football stadia to be full of. But if charging top prices and providing meals and champagne equalled success, Spurs would have swept the board for the last 35 years.
A nice sentiment, which ignores the fact that Heck is clearly going to rinse everybody until their pips squeak for each and every seat in the ground.
Post by: Simon Page on January 09, 2024, 01:08:15 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 09, 2024, 01:29:23 PM
I'm sure he is. I was merely commenting on how it feels to me like arguing about someone else's house.
Yeah, one thing I'd say about our house is there's always something happening and it's usually quite loud.
Post by: FatSam on January 09, 2024, 05:20:57 PM
Although I'm pro the North Stand development, I think people are too optimistic about the likelihood of a Witton Stand redev to follow. CPOing residential property is always very difficult, incredibly controversial and time-consuming. And at current house prices, it would also be eye-wateringly expensive.Getting the North Stand built, with as much corporate/GA+ as the club thinks is appropriate keeps us iwithn touching distance off the Everton's. I believe the plan included an upgrade to the corporate in the Trinity too.
Once this was done an assessment can be made on whether a new Witton Lane stand is needed. The talk is of pushing to 60,000 (so a WLS with an extra 10k seats). This may not be necessary.
Another though that I don't think has been mentioned. White Hart Lane, The Emirates and Everton. They will struggle to expand beyond what they have in terms of capacity. Keeping VP of a modular design (I.e, broadly separate stands) allows the potential to further grow the ground.
Everton's new ground will initially be 52k, with the designed potential to expand to 62k. I understand your thinking that it would be easier to replace individual stands to increase capacity, but Man City have already expanded one end (and are set to do the other) in a purpose-built bowl stadium. The issue is more about the amount of space around the ground I would argue, and Witton Lane is no different from Arsenal and Spurs in that respect. At Villa Park it is only the sides that could ever really be expanded anyway, as the ends (with the new Witton End) would already be at the maximium distance from the pitch. I don't think anyone is realistically suggesting that we could extend the Trinity Road stand backwards towards the park, and Witton Lane is obviously very constrained.
The issue with the new Witton End stand is that it would obviously keep us on the same site indefinitely. We aren't going to spend a large chunk of the cost of a new ground on a new stand at Villa Park, and then relocate within the next 20-30 years. Especially as the cost per seat for new stands has increased significantly recently, as indicated in that Athletic article. If the 2-3k additional seats elsewhere around the ground can be delivered cost effectively, and independently from the new stand, then it makes sense to bring them forward. You could argue that they should even have been done before now, but it all comes down to the decision early in the process to discount the idea of a new ground. We are all assuming that something must have happened to change the club's thinking, and it seems more likely that it is either our form under Emery, or the new infrastructure investment.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 05:32:44 PM
This attracted squatters, drug users, vermin, etc
Standard Liverpool matchday crowd then. Hooray, big success! ;)
Post by: VillaTim on January 09, 2024, 06:00:51 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 06:22:44 PM
Otherwise we are traveling to a destination where two thirds of the top flight play in variations of the same soul-less stadium.
For me Aston Villa is special, I support the club and being at Villa Park is a huge part of that. Ask fans at other clubs and they always say Villa Park is special. I would be a real bitter pill for me to swallow
Post by: FrankyH on January 09, 2024, 06:24:39 PM
Post by: paul_e on January 09, 2024, 07:04:31 PM
I'm not saying we have to move or happy for us to go miles away but a new ground within a few miles of where we are and built with our history in mind would be fine by me if it was part of a new era for the club.
Post by: Nelly on January 09, 2024, 07:30:24 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 09, 2024, 07:47:31 PM
Imagine going there for the last game and knowing you would be in some bland version of the Emirates/Tottenham Stadium forever more.
Post by: VillaTim on January 09, 2024, 07:53:14 PM
Why does a new ground have to be soulless? What gives the current ground it's soul given most of it has been rebuilt since football sold it's soul to sky and everyone was happy for the only bit left to be demolished?go to West Ham or The Etihad all will be revealed
I'm not saying we have to move or happy for us to go miles away but a new ground within a few miles of where we are and built with our history in mind would be fine by me if it was part of a new era for the club.
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 09, 2024, 07:55:31 PM
Why does a new ground have to be soulless? What gives the current ground it's soul given most of it has been rebuilt since football sold it's soul to sky and everyone was happy for the only bit left to be demolished?go to West Ham or The Etihad all will be reveiled
I'm not saying we have to move or happy for us to go miles away but a new ground within a few miles of where we are and built with our history in mind would be fine by me if it was part of a new era for the club.
Neither were built for football.
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 07:55:41 PM
That's it Nelly. it is a huge part of our identity.
Imagine going there for the last game and knowing you would be in some bland version of the Emirates/Tottenham Stadium forever more.
The bit that most people think of when they think of Villa and its history, the Holte End red brick facade, is less than 30 years old. It could be recreated on any new stadium, anywhere in the city. Walking down Witton Lane, nobody's looking at that stand getting misty eyed about it. It's no more evocative than an Amazon distribution warehouse.
Post by: VillaTim on January 09, 2024, 07:56:42 PM
go to The EmiratesWhy does a new ground have to be soulless? What gives the current ground it's soul given most of it has been rebuilt since football sold it's soul to sky and everyone was happy for the only bit left to be demolished?go to West Ham or The Etihad all will be reveiled
I'm not saying we have to move or happy for us to go miles away but a new ground within a few miles of where we are and built with our history in mind would be fine by me if it was part of a new era for the club.
Neither were built for football.
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 09, 2024, 07:57:45 PM
go to The EmiratesWhy does a new ground have to be soulless? What gives the current ground it's soul given most of it has been rebuilt since football sold it's soul to sky and everyone was happy for the only bit left to be demolished?go to West Ham or The Etihad all will be reveiled
I'm not saying we have to move or happy for us to go miles away but a new ground within a few miles of where we are and built with our history in mind would be fine by me if it was part of a new era for the club.
Neither were built for football.
The Emirates is a perfectly good stadium. It's the occupants that are the problem. Highbury was just as quiet.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 09, 2024, 07:59:34 PM
Post by: Risso on January 09, 2024, 07:59:46 PM
go to The Emirates
My second favourite away ground after Newcastle. Easy to get to, in a great area surrounded by loads of pubs and restaurants, and a really good ground inside.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 09, 2024, 08:02:06 PM
go to The Emirates
My second favourite away ground after Newcastle. Easy to get to, in a great area surrounded by loads of pubs and restaurants, and a really good ground inside.
The worst thing I have to say about it is that the seats seem to be perfectly designed to lift my wallet out of my back pocket as they lift up.
Post by: FatSam on January 09, 2024, 08:10:20 PM
The Emirates is a perfectly good stadium. It's the occupants that are the problem. Highbury was just as quiet.Exactly. They didn’t call it Highbury the Library for nothing.
Post by: The Edge on January 09, 2024, 08:18:23 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 09, 2024, 08:44:52 PM
Nah, the Emirates is shit.Soulless corporate bowl hopefully we never end up with anything like it
Post by: IFWaters on January 09, 2024, 09:13:39 PM
Post by: Stu on January 09, 2024, 09:16:51 PM
Talking of costs, the Newcastle ticket prices are mental. £48 cheapest adult, £80 in the Trinity posh seats.
£96 for an adult and child on the Holte. Fucking outrageous.
I've spent a lot of money on match tickets when I couldn't afford it and now that I can afford it I really can't get past thinking that any more than £25 for 90 mins of football is extortionate.
Post by: Stu on January 09, 2024, 09:17:42 PM
Nah, the Emirates is shit.
Best away in the Prem as a fan though.
Post by: Gareth on January 09, 2024, 09:30:22 PM
So we're in 2024 now and ground redevelopment that will only be enough to keep us in the top 10 has been cancelled. It's just so unbelievably short sighted not to mention disappointing. It's our best season in yonks and I keep hearing things like "the giant has awoken". Well the giant is going to be made to look very small time when FIFA announces that they're pulling the plug on us hosting the Euros in 2028.
Couldn’t care less about the Euros…whether the decision is right or wrong is something we’ll judge as Villa in time but UEFA / England are irrelevant to it.
Post by: The Edge on January 09, 2024, 09:53:57 PM
I'm talking about prestige. Villa Park has always been considered one of the top stadiums in the country capable of hosting the very highest standard of football there is and its something we can rightly be proud of. So to have ourselves taken off the list to host the Euros is a sad indictment of where our beloved stadium now sits in the hierarchy of venues if that's what happens. We'll have to wait and see won't we.So we're in 2024 now and ground redevelopment that will only be enough to keep us in the top 10 has been cancelled. It's just so unbelievably short sighted not to mention disappointing. It's our best season in yonks and I keep hearing things like "the giant has awoken". Well the giant is going to be made to look very small time when FIFA announces that they're pulling the plug on us hosting the Euros in 2028.
Couldn’t care less about the Euros…whether the decision is right or wrong is something we’ll judge as Villa in time but UEFA / England are irrelevant to it.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 10, 2024, 03:14:27 AM
It does come down to cost. Don't spend £100m to be left in a situation where the reault is unlikely to bring you any closer to bridging a gap between your rivals.
So spend £100m for 10,000 extra seats, or spend £1 billion for 20,000?
The main logic for a complete rebuild, as I see it, would be to make the ground useable for other events, so +20k on match days but also +60k for NFL/gigs etc. Not saying that justifies the £1bn cost but it must be the thinking surely.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 10, 2024, 03:42:55 AM
Down the road, Brentford have made the move from griffin park (another cracking ground) and now seem go be in a good position to grow as a club.
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 10, 2024, 04:19:47 AM
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 09:14:54 AM
Fulham are arguably in a similar position to us. A ground that every away fan loves, historic stands and full of memories but craven cottage is also holding them back as they cannot expand.Fulham just built a new stand and did expand though.
Down the road, Brentford have made the move from griffin park (another cracking ground) and now seem go be in a good position to grow as a club.
Post by: LeeB on January 10, 2024, 09:16:30 AM
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 09:19:34 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 10, 2024, 09:23:10 AM
When we went 4 years ago in the FA Cup they were building it then. They're building in the Thames, not the North Sea.
It is funny, "it's hard because it by a river".
Yeah, so is Canary Wharf up the road but that manages to stand up.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 10, 2024, 09:30:35 AM
Yeah, and it's took 3 years and it's still not open.
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Apparently the company building it went tits up
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 09:30:43 AM
Yeah, and it's took 3 years and it's still not open.Due to the Contractor building it going bust . It's a fantastic looking stand and Craven Cottage will still be a great ground as oppossed to Brentford's new ground which is hideous
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 10, 2024, 09:33:13 AM
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 09:36:16 AM
We all love Villa Park, but we might just have outgrown it. Or at least will. Not just where we are hoping to go with our performances but simply to keep up with what other sides and what a modern football stadium needs to look like. There really is only so much that can be done. Yes the North could be improved and 10k seats added. But it doesn’t fix much of the rest of the stadium and the challenges that persist there. And this all before we discuss infrastructure of the surrounding area, transportation and respect for the existing residents. So I would like to think the current stalling of the plans is because something all encompassing is being considered. There is no doubt to stay competitive financially, there are many changes we desperately need.
The new North would have got us to 50Kish. Then if you rejigged the Doug, and wrapped it round to join the North in the way the new stand was going to meet the Trinity, I reckon you'd have close to 60. You could probably get both done in 4 to 5 years. You'd then be left with the existing Holte and Trinity, which are more than adequate, if some thought was put into organising the existing facilities properly.
Either of the alternatives, a rebuild of Villa Park or moving elsewhere entirely, are going to take much, much longer, and all that time we're getting left behind from a revenue point of view.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 09:42:35 AM
Yeah, and it's took 3 years and it's still not open.Due to the Contractor building it going bust . It's a fantastic looking stand and Craven Cottage will still be a great ground as oppossed to Brentford's new ground which is hideous
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Looks shite. Lower tiers being smaller than upper tiers, blergh. Looking at you too North Stand.
Post by: Villan82 on January 10, 2024, 09:44:04 AM
We all love Villa Park, but we might just have outgrown it. Or at least will. Not just where we are hoping to go with our performances but simply to keep up with what other sides and what a modern football stadium needs to look like. There really is only so much that can be done. Yes the North could be improved and 10k seats added. But it doesn’t fix much of the rest of the stadium and the challenges that persist there. And this all before we discuss infrastructure of the surrounding area, transportation and respect for the existing residents. So I would like to think the current stalling of the plans is because something all encompassing is being considered. There is no doubt to stay competitive financially, there are many changes we desperately need.
The new North would have got us to 50Kish. Then if you rejigged the Doug, and wrapped it round to join the North in the way the new stand was going to meet the Trinity, I reckon you'd have close to 60. You could probably get both done in 4 to 5 years. You'd then be left with the existing Holte and Trinity, which are more than adequate, if some thought was put into organising the existing facilities properly.
Either of the alternatives, a rebuild of Villa Park or moving elsewhere entirely, are going to take much, much longer, and all that time we're getting left behind from a revenue point of view.
100% agree and for all its problems next to a railway with soon to be revamped station.
I predict that whoever replaces Heck will have a serious clean up operation on their hands. The man seems to just break things.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 09:45:21 AM
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 09:50:16 AM
I doubt there's much that could be done to improve the Witton given the teeny footprint it's on. I sat in the lower for Switzerland v Holland and the upper for the Nilis Chelsea game when the Trinity was being done. It's an abysmal stand.
Like I say, wrap it round and join it to a new North. There's a huge amount of empty space there. The road is still going to be there and causing the same problems even if they knock the whole thing down and start again.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 09:59:43 AM
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 10:16:11 AM
I read that Fulham were charging over £100 for a ticket in the partially opened new stand for the Man United game this season.possibly higher , some standard seats in the other stands are plus £80 there anyway .
Post by: Dogtanian on January 10, 2024, 10:19:27 AM
https://www.fulhamsupporterstrust.com/news/2023/04/season-ticket-prices/ (https://www.fulhamsupporterstrust.com/news/2023/04/season-ticket-prices/)
"The other big numbers released today are the Riverside ticket prices. There’s no doubt that these prices will come as a shock to many, with season tickets on sale for renewals between £1,250 and £3,000."
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 10:23:26 AM
Post by: jon collett on January 10, 2024, 10:30:42 AM
I doubt there's much that could be done to improve the Witton given the teeny footprint it's on. I sat in the lower for Switzerland v Holland and the upper for the Nilis Chelsea game when the Trinity was being done. It's an abysmal stand.
Depends what you want. The facilities are woeful and the concourses positively dangerous with crushing at half time but the views of the pitch and surrounds are the best in the ground. Personally that's all I want these days.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 10:41:11 AM
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 10:43:50 AM
I want us to have better facilities than shit clubs like Brighton.
Some time in the 2030s, that might actually be the case. I'll be coming up to retirement by then, so look forward to the slight discount.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 10:52:09 AM
I want us to have better facilities than shit clubs like Brighton.
Some time in the 2030s, that might actually be the case. I'll be coming up to retirement by then, so look forward to the slight discount.
2030s is actually frighteningly close. In my minds eye that's 30 years away, not a tickle under 6 years.
Post by: Drummond on January 10, 2024, 10:56:55 AM
I doubt there's much that could be done to improve the Witton given the teeny footprint it's on. I sat in the lower for Switzerland v Holland and the upper for the Nilis Chelsea game when the Trinity was being done. It's an abysmal stand.
Depends what you want. The facilities are woeful and the concourses positively dangerous with crushing at half time but the views of the pitch and surrounds are the best in the ground. Personally that's all I want these days.
I'm with you.
I don't care for padded seats, and fancy meals at football. A space to watch with a decent view, a beer and a dirty burger thanks very much.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 10, 2024, 11:00:04 AM
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 11:03:29 AM
I want us to have better facilities than shit clubs like Brighton.
Some time in the 2030s, that might actually be the case. I'll be coming up to retirement by then, so look forward to the slight discount.
2030s is actually frighteningly close. In my minds eye that's 30 years away, not a tickle under 6 years.
It'll be mid 2030s, at the earliest. Nothing major's going to happen in 6 years. Can't see them even announcing anything in the next two years.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 11:04:58 AM
I want us to have better facilities than shit clubs like Brighton.
Some time in the 2030s, that might actually be the case. I'll be coming up to retirement by then, so look forward to the slight discount.
2030s is actually frighteningly close. In my minds eye that's 30 years away, not a tickle under 6 years.
It'll be mid 2030s, at the earliest. Nothing major's going to happen in 6 years. Can't see them even announcing anything in the next two years.
Possibly not, in fairness my post was more a fuck me I'm older than I thought.
Post by: Drummond on January 10, 2024, 11:27:13 AM
The problem is we can’t get the beer and the burger with the current set up and in much of the ground there’s no space.
The service is shit, on that everyone agrees. That's what I mean, get that right and most people will be more than happy.
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 11:28:48 AM
the concourse and catering and bogs are abysmal, the views from the upper Witton are superbI doubt there's much that could be done to improve the Witton given the teeny footprint it's on. I sat in the lower for Switzerland v Holland and the upper for the Nilis Chelsea game when the Trinity was being done. It's an abysmal stand.
Depends what you want. The facilities are woeful and the concourses positively dangerous with crushing at half time but the views of the pitch and surrounds are the best in the ground. Personally that's all I want these days.
Post by: Villan82 on January 10, 2024, 11:41:24 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 10, 2024, 11:46:56 AM
The problem is we can’t get the beer and the burger with the current set up and in much of the ground there’s no space.
The service is shit, on that everyone agrees. That's what I mean, get that right and most people will be more than happy.
Maybe some clever expanding by using outside space of the Witton lane , like they do at Edgebaston
Post by: Monty on January 10, 2024, 11:50:50 AM
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 11:51:57 AM
The problem is we can’t get the beer and the burger with the current set up and in much of the ground there’s no space.
The service is shit, on that everyone agrees. That's what I mean, get that right and most people will be more than happy.
Maybe some clever expanding by using outside space of the Witton lane , like they do at Edgebaston
There is no outside space that side though, it's just the pavement and the road. You've got a small patch in the corner between the DE and the North, but it's not big enough and you couldn't get people out to use it at half time. You could do stuff like that in the North or the Holte though. They do at Leeds and it massively reduces pressure inside.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 10, 2024, 11:54:06 AM
The problem is we can’t get the beer and the burger with the current set up and in much of the ground there’s no space.
The service is shit, on that everyone agrees. That's what I mean, get that right and most people will be more than happy.
Maybe some clever expanding by using outside space of the Witton lane , like they do at Edgbaston
There is no outside space that side though, it's just the pavement and the road. You've got a small patch in the corner between the DE and the North, but it's not big enough and you couldn't get people out to use it at half time. You could do stuff like that in the North or the Holte though. They do at Leeds and it massively reduces pressure inside.
I didn't know if is feasible to shut the road and use that space
Post by: Drummond on January 10, 2024, 12:04:45 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 12:07:19 PM
For avoidance of doubt the Athletic piece makes clear the cancelling of the redevelopment was Heck's decision as part of his 6 month review.what would they know
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 12:15:40 PM
The road is shut whilst the game is on, it's a matter of working out whether they can set up food etc quickly enough, or getting the road closed for longer. It can get pretty busy there anyway though.
The road is shut but you can still walk down I thought? And if they did do something down there, they'd have to fence it off such that people couldn't get in or out, but still have emergency exits. Then get all the food and drink vendors in and out and the fences taken down so that the road can reopen after the game. To be honest, things like that only really work where it's land you own where you can make things semi-permanent.
Post by: jon collett on January 10, 2024, 12:19:52 PM
No architect and the stadium manager built it by going to Jewson.
Watching the crush at half time from above is scary. Even the stewards are caught in the tide of people swaying.
Then the upper tier itself is incredibly steep.
But once in the seat I reckon its the best view in the ground!
Not saying its what we should have ir how things should be but it suits me!
Post by: chrisw1 on January 10, 2024, 12:24:53 PM
It's just as well you can't get a beer because if you do you certainly can't get in for a piss at half time.
Post by: Drummond on January 10, 2024, 12:27:32 PM
Post by: Gareth on January 10, 2024, 12:28:37 PM
Everything else about the stand is lower league standard….dont think the toilets have had a penny spent on them (rather than in them) since the stand was built, catering and range is beyond crap, the service is useless, the concourses are soooo crowded. Toilets, catering and service they could fix if they wanted
Post by: Chris Smith on January 10, 2024, 12:33:00 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 10, 2024, 12:33:20 PM
I want us to have better facilities than shit clubs like Brighton.
Some time in the 2030s, that might actually be the case. I'll be coming up to retirement by then, so look forward to the slight discount.
2030s is actually frighteningly close. In my minds eye that's 30 years away, not a tickle under 6 years.
For context roughly six years ago Snodgrass banged in that superb winner at Sheff Utd.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 12:33:55 PM
Post by: jon collett on January 10, 2024, 12:39:02 PM
Wait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tiny by comparison with today's costs.
Post by: algy on January 10, 2024, 12:46:04 PM
Yeah, and it's took 3 years and it's still not open.Wouldn't that mean they had a 2 sided ground, though?
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Surely you have to go down to non-league clubs to find ones that only have 2 usable stands?
Post by: Chris Harte on January 10, 2024, 12:46:34 PM
It was built in-house, but I recall they rebuilt the lower tier afterwards due to issues with realignment of the seats (isn't that part of the new plan?)Wait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tony by comparison with today's costs.
I think the asbestos issue arose as a consequence of rebuilding what was an existing 1960s structure.
Post by: LeeB on January 10, 2024, 12:49:22 PM
Yeah, and it's took 3 years and it's still not open.Wouldn't that mean they had a 2 sided ground, though?
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Surely you have to go down to non-league clubs to find ones that only have 2 usable stands?
I meant 2 new whole stadiums.
Post by: algy on January 10, 2024, 12:49:47 PM
Doug boasted that we were the only club to have built our own stand.Wait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tiny by comparison with today's costs.
Not sure it was something to boast about, but still.
Post by: Gareth on January 10, 2024, 12:52:52 PM
Yeah, and it's took 3 years and it's still not open.Wouldn't that mean they had a 2 sided ground, though?
They could have built 2 new ones in that time.
Surely you have to go down to non-league clubs to find ones that only have 2 usable stands?
Or across our City
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 10, 2024, 12:57:21 PM
Doug boasted that we were the only club to have built our own stand.Wait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tiny by comparison with today's costs.
Not sure it was something to boast about, but still.
no wonder he got it named after him
Post by: LeeB on January 10, 2024, 01:21:22 PM
Doug boasted that we were the only club to have built our own stand.Wait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tiny by comparison with today's costs.
Not sure it was something to boast about, but still.
no wonder he got it named after him
Yeah, as I've said before it's a fitting monument to the mediocrity of the man.
Post by: London Villan on January 10, 2024, 01:24:16 PM
That's Doug for you...
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 01:27:59 PM
the stand was built by Ellmanton Construction - Doug's very own building contractor he set up for the job. Never missed a trick that bloke to rinse money out the clubWait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tiny by comparison with today's costs.
Post by: jon collett on January 10, 2024, 01:40:25 PM
By then it was too late because of way Witton Lane built so some seats in new Holte had their views blocked.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 10, 2024, 01:44:41 PM
Post by: London Villan on January 10, 2024, 01:49:46 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 10, 2024, 01:56:43 PM
Good old Doug.
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 02:05:00 PM
It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: KevinGage on January 10, 2024, 03:20:55 PM
Doug boasted that we were the only club to have built our own stand.Wait what, we did the Witton in house by going to a builders merchant?!
Yep all managed by a bloke called Ted Small who was Stadium Manager.
We boasted at the time how little it cost but then quickly discovered due to asbestos we had to demolish and rebuild the lower tier which we just left.
The cost would be tiny by comparison with today's costs.
Not sure it was something to boast about, but still.
And what a fitting tribute it is to the man, the myth the leg end.
Post by: The Edge on January 10, 2024, 05:16:30 PM
It's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 05:19:28 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 10, 2024, 05:39:31 PM
We're in our purple patch right now. We have an elite manager, wealthy owners and a talented squad. We can be in a new stand in two seasons. Hopefully at that point Emery will still be with us and we'll be firmly in the Champions League. We'd be massively increasing our revenue and seizing the opportunity that is in front of us right now.
I'm sick of jam tomorrow. If we go for a rebuild or relocation, the most bullish estimates would probably be 7 years plus before we're in and playing. Emery will almost certainly have moved on and we'll be in our next cycle, whatever that may be.
In the meantime, we'll have been limited more than we need to have been by FFP and our ability to support Emery.
I strongly believe we should get the stand up, increase the corporate offer and get the revenue going. If there's clearly more appetite when it's up, then we can look at CPO's and other options.
If Heck honestly doesn't think 50k is enough (and I believe he thinks it's too much) then redesign the North as a horseshoe and put pressure on the council for a very slight shift in the Trinity roadline if we need to.
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 05:41:18 PM
i'm not sure its possible those seats in the bottom of the Holte that are blocked off are very low down and at a weid angle , not sure how you'd adjust them without blocking others offIt's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: paul_e on January 10, 2024, 05:55:11 PM
ADS, the major problem I (and I believe a few others) have with a stadium rebuild is the timescale.
We're in our purple patch right now. We have an elite manager, wealthy owners and a talented squad. We can be in a new stand in two seasons. Hopefully at that point Emery will still be with us and we'll be firmly in the Champions League. We'd be massively increasing our revenue and seizing the opportunity that is in front of us right now.
I'm sick of jam tomorrow. If we go for a rebuild or relocation, the most bullish estimates would probably be 7 years plus before we're in and playing. Emery will almost certainly have moved on and we'll be in our next cycle, whatever that may be.
In the meantime, we'll have been limited more than we need to have been by FFP and our ability to support Emery.
I strongly believe we should get the stand up, increase the corporate offer and get the revenue going. If there's clearly more appetite when it's up, then we can look at CPO's and other options.
If Heck honestly doesn't think 50k is enough (and I believe he thinks it's too much) then redesign the North as a horseshoe and put pressure on the council for a very slight shift in the Trinity roadline if we need to.
On the bold bit: Would people want a horseshoe, isn't that 3/4s of a "soulless bowl"?
I totally get what you're saying here and I see the sense in it but it really depends on what "you" see as the target at the end of all this. I suspect me and Ads are on the slightly more extreme end where we want a 60k stadium with world class facilities throughout and with all the corporate space you'd expect from a ground that's hosting regular finals and internationals, as well as concerts, etc. Add to that a hotel, conference centre, etc. Basically all the bits that grounds add on to help them make money outside matchdays.
On that basis £100m on a single stand that gets us maybe 15-20% of the way there but potentially makes doing the rest more difficult seems like it could easily either be wasted expense or would further delay getting where I want to be. I think you're being overly negative in assuming Heck thinks 50k is too much (but it's an understandable opinion given what has been said so far) and, with the addition of Comcast/Atairos, I'm of the opinion that the delay/cancellation is mostly to investigate what the options are to get to something like I want and whether the proposed stand is a step towards that or not. If they decide it is we still have the planning permission/funding/etc to restart it but if not we haven't gone too far to not be able to turn around.
Post by: Villan82 on January 10, 2024, 06:01:53 PM
People talk about space, as we saw with Villa Live there are other ways to deliver the bells and whistles of a modern stadium. We have acres of space behind the North for hotels, conference centres, shops, music venues and whatever else.
Just get us to 50k while we are experiencing our best ever consistent average attendances. I don't get it.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 10, 2024, 06:10:00 PM
Both views are valid and it would be great to ultimately see us in a 60k seater. But we have Emery now. Let's go balls out to exploit that and get up to 50-55k. If we're concerned about corporate space, make the North even bigger - there's loads of room in that car park.
I honestly don't mind filling in the corners if it adds another few thousand seats. Particularly if we retain a stand-alone Holte. What we want is a competitive stadium in 2-3 years not 7-10.
Post by: OCD on January 10, 2024, 06:28:45 PM
Whereas if we prioritise what's happening on the pitch for a few more years, we might just solidify ourselves and strengthen our bottom line and be in a much better position with FFP.
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 06:34:17 PM
The flipside to having Emery is whether building work would leave us with less for transfers and whether we wouldn't be as much of a force in home games with a stand down?
Whereas if we prioritise what's happening on the pitch for a few more years, we might just solidify ourselves and strengthen our bottom line and be in a much better position with FFP.
Building work doesn't affect FFP. And if we can't have a transfer fund AND build a new stand, then what on earth are those new investors for?
Post by: The Edge on January 10, 2024, 06:46:58 PM
It's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.i'm not sure its possible those seats in the bottom of the Holte that are blocked off are very low down and at a weid angle , not sure how you'd adjust them without blocking others offIt's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: TheMalandro on January 10, 2024, 06:57:40 PM
That's it really Villan.
Both views are valid and it would be great to ultimately see us in a 60k seater. But we have Emery now. Let's go balls out to exploit that and get up to 50-55k. If we're concerned about corporate space, make the North even bigger - there's loads of room in that car park.
I honestly don't mind filling in the corners if it adds another few thousand seats. Particularly if we retain a stand-alone Holte. What we want is a competitive stadium in 2-3 years not 7-10.
If they are thinking about a new stadium. I’m not sure if five to ten years matters. I’m sure we’ll know their intentions in the next eighteen months.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 07:08:07 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 07:33:03 PM
i take it they dont sell those seats ? may aswell rip them out and put a dance floor there or something or otherIt's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.i'm not sure its possible those seats in the bottom of the Holte that are blocked off are very low down and at a weid angle , not sure how you'd adjust them without blocking others offIt's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: Mister E on January 10, 2024, 07:59:52 PM
If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.I was talking with an Aussie mate of mine (who went to the Spuds stadium to see the B'mouth game*) about the situation of stadia, commercial income and competing with the other clubs in the Premier League. Our competition are either London-based (Spuds, Arse) or benefitting from some heritage value (ManUre, Liverpool), or simply powered with endless funds (Citeh and possibly Jawdies): these clubs are able to leverage higher ticket prices, more compelling commercial income and a willing home support.
For us to compete, my Aussie mate and I concluded that a stadium fit for 60k people with all the facilities fans now expect is critical. From that, multiple commercial opportunities will arise, assuming the team is doing well.
So, I agree, time is a key factor in all this: if we want to be in the top echelon, we need to develop the best possible stadium as soon as possible in order to compete.
If we just want to be a plucky 'hopeful' continue as is.
* He reckons that the queue for the club shop was 50yds long and there were c.15 tills serving the demand; he did a rough calculation that the per person spend was around £150.00. He may have got this wrong, of course, but the ballpark numbers are impressive.
for us, there's an assumption that we want to attract more 'tourist' fans than we currently do; and this may grate with many of us. Maybe success comes with that 'price'.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 10, 2024, 08:00:51 PM
It's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.
i take it they dont sell those seats ? may aswell rip them out and put a dance floor there or something or other
I'd go for a pool bar and hot tub. https://www.mlb.com/dbacks/ballpark/events/locations/pool
(https://dujour.com/wp-content/uploads/9/90ea54ff266c.jpg)
Post by: The Edge on January 10, 2024, 08:53:29 PM
Can you please email the details for this? Please forward to: Chris.Heck@tramplingonhistory.comIt's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.
i take it they dont sell those seats ? may aswell rip them out and put a dance floor there or something or other
I'd go for a pool bar and hot tub. https://www.mlb.com/dbacks/ballpark/events/locations/pool
(https://dujour.com/wp-content/uploads/9/90ea54ff266c.jpg)
Post by: Villan82 on January 10, 2024, 09:04:11 PM
If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
Based on what we have seen so far it is just as likely they ramp up prices next year, demand for ticket actually reduces and they announce that 42k is fine.
Honestly, Heck gives me such a bad vibe.
Post by: luke95 on January 10, 2024, 09:18:27 PM
Would you be able to build on that corner , it's also the only entrance/exit for heavy machinery into the stadium.It's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.i'm not sure its possible those seats in the bottom of the Holte that are blocked off are very low down and at a weid angle , not sure how you'd adjust them without blocking others offIt's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: VillaTim on January 10, 2024, 09:25:03 PM
You could try and build almost a mezzanine type infill but it would be very Heath RobinsonWould you be able to build on that corner , it's also the only entrance/exit for heavy machinery into the stadium.It's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.i'm not sure its possible those seats in the bottom of the Holte that are blocked off are very low down and at a weid angle , not sure how you'd adjust them without blocking others offIt's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
Post by: Risso on January 10, 2024, 10:28:06 PM
If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 10, 2024, 10:32:07 PM
Would you be able to build on that corner , it's also the only entrance/exit for heavy machinery into the stadium.It's hard to explain what I'm thinking but I'm pretty sure it could be done. Whether it's worth the effort for what we would gain is another question. I just hate the fact that we have a corner at the lower right hand side of the Holte that's dead space.i'm not sure its possible those seats in the bottom of the Holte that are blocked off are very low down and at a weid angle , not sure how you'd adjust them without blocking others offIt's something that's triggered my ocd since the day the new Holte was opened. You've got me thinking now. It's possible that they could re-profile the lower Holte to match the angle of the seating in the DE forming a new corner section thus creating more seating. Could this be the re-jigging of the current seating that Heck was talking about?It's crazy the two stands built within a year of each other (Holte End/Witton Lane) look so different and have such a disjointed connection, with a section of restricted view seats...some of those seats must look directly at a brick wall . Brilliant planning
It might also be the emergency services entrance.
Post by: Ads on January 10, 2024, 10:40:06 PM
If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
That's a difficult choice that has to be made. You can't do both.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 10, 2024, 10:41:02 PM
It just turns "we're not expanding as we said we would" into "we are still expanding, just not as much".
I flat out don't trust them to be truthful with us.
Post by: Des Little on January 10, 2024, 10:44:31 PM
Post by: FatSam on January 10, 2024, 11:20:26 PM
People talk about space, as we saw with Villa Live there are other ways to deliver the bells and whistles of a modern stadium. We have acres of space behind the North for hotels, conference centres, shops, music venues and whatever else.I’m not sure that the location would support the hotels, conference centres, shops and music venues that you mention. They would all be on a relatively small scale, and isolated from anything else in a residential area. I think you have to accept that remaining on the same site has its limitations.
Post by: Villafirst on January 10, 2024, 11:31:41 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 10, 2024, 11:45:22 PM
What about the Euros in 2028? Villa Park has been chosen as a host venue with a proviso of a capacity of minimum 50,000 if I'm correct? Also, it's estimated that the tournament will bring in around £117m to the City. Have they now abandoned this completely??
I think that's another issue Heck doesn't seem to care about. He is a wrecking ball.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 11, 2024, 03:54:45 AM
In theory, Stage 4 design and tendering for the North Stand can be continuing at risk. If they do this, there could be minimal impact on the original programme as these activities were needed anyway.
Post by: Mister E on January 11, 2024, 07:01:25 AM
I think that is exactly the short-term strategy they're pursuing: but it has limitations - they will still only get 42k worth of earnings every other week, where others are leveraging 60-74k worth.If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
Based on what we have seen so far it is just as likely they ramp up prices next year, demand for ticket actually reduces and they announce that 42k is fine.
Honestly, Heck gives me such a bad vibe.
It still won't generate the sort of revenue required to compete with other, more cash-generative clubs. Stadium expansion is becoming a critical success factor, since the owners can't be expected to fund the future indefinitely.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 11, 2024, 08:48:51 AM
So we waste the Emery years in the hope that we do something long in the future? Don't worry, there will be jam tomorrow.If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
That's a difficult choice that has to be made. You can't do both.
Post by: LeeB on January 11, 2024, 08:51:18 AM
I suspect they’re scrambling around looking to see whether there is any land available in the city centre for a stadium. After a year they will have a good idea in that regard and then a plan may materialise. No land then I suspect the North Stand will proceed as planned, the alternative …well is a new stadium.
In theory, Stage 4 design and tendering for the North Stand can be continuing at risk. If they do this, there could be minimal impact on the original programme as these activities were needed anyway.
Thats my view too.
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 09:19:20 AM
So we waste the Emery years in the hope that we do something long in the future? Don't worry, there will be jam tomorrow.If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
That's a difficult choice that has to be made. You can't do both.
I dont understand your conclusion.
We have a capability gap. The new North would not remove that gap. So we shouldn't start work on the solution that does remove the gap, maybe even puts us in front of a number, because it's a long term plan?
This is a very UK attitude. I'll use an analogy we've all felt, rich or poor these past few years. The sort of thinking that saw reactors like the (now) Madox site in Ffestiniog decommissioned in 1991 and nothing built to replace it (when strike prices were much lower) and yet here we are with increased energy prices. Susceptible to wilder variation because we didn't bridge capability gaps.
I want jam tomorrow and for the next 50 years because that's what we need, not marmalade. Nobody wants marmalade.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 11, 2024, 09:33:14 AM
Post by: Risso on January 11, 2024, 10:10:08 AM
So we waste the Emery years in the hope that we do something long in the future? Don't worry, there will be jam tomorrow.If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
That's a difficult choice that has to be made. You can't do both.
I dont understand your conclusion.
We have a capability gap. The new North would not remove that gap. So we shouldn't start work on the solution that does remove the gap, maybe even puts us in front of a number, because it's a long term plan?
This is a very UK attitude. I'll use an analogy we've all felt, rich or poor these past few years. The sort of thinking that saw reactors like the (now) Madox site in Ffestiniog decommissioned in 1991 and nothing built to replace it (when strike prices were much lower) and yet here we are with increased energy prices. Susceptible to wilder variation because we didn't bridge capability gaps.
I want jam tomorrow and for the next 50 years because that's what we need, not marmalade. Nobody wants marmalade.
If you want to bridge a capability gap, then first of all you need capable people, but unfortunately we seem to have appointed a fraud in Heck who can't even do the simplest things right, and they're supposed to be the things he's good at. I'm not wedded to the idea of a new North Stand or even staying on the same site, but I strongly suspect there are no major plans that are going to see us in a bigger stadium in the next ten years. If we planned two new stands; a new North that joins the Trinity and the Doug Ellis; and a new Doug Ellis that joins the Holte; all with filled in corners, you'd be at 60,000 without having to knock the whole thing down. If you then looked at making more use of the areas outside the Holte and the North, you massively improve the facilities as well.
All we're really left with though, is Heck trying to squeeze a bit more revenue out of the 42,000 we've got already, and that's not going to bridge any sort of gap at all. We're competing with the likes of Spurs and Arsenal who charge more and have 20,000 more fans paying those higher prices.
Post by: algy on January 11, 2024, 10:13:50 AM
Agree totally here (except that, like Villa mole, I'd pick marmalade over jam any day of the week). Villa Park as it currently stands was built at a time when we had an average attendance of about 30,000. I don't know what our current average attendance is, but it must be over 40,000 - and the only reason it's not higher is because the ground is at it's physical limit more often than not.So we waste the Emery years in the hope that we do something long in the future? Don't worry, there will be jam tomorrow.If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
That's a difficult choice that has to be made. You can't do both.
I dont understand your conclusion.
We have a capability gap. The new North would not remove that gap. So we shouldn't start work on the solution that does remove the gap, maybe even puts us in front of a number, because it's a long term plan?
This is a very UK attitude. I'll use an analogy we've all felt, rich or poor these past few years. The sort of thinking that saw reactors like the (now) Madox site in Ffestiniog decommissioned in 1991 and nothing built to replace it (when strike prices were much lower) and yet here we are with increased energy prices. Susceptible to wilder variation because we didn't bridge capability gaps.
I want jam tomorrow and for the next 50 years because that's what we need, not marmalade. Nobody wants marmalade.
To me, we either knock down Villa Park and rebuild there, or we build a new ground somewhere else. There aren't any other options if we want to compete at the top end of the table, because no matter how big a stand we replace the current North Stand with, we've still got a hard limit of (about) 50,000 capacity as we can't make the Holte End, Trinity Road, or Witton Lane stands significantly bigger than they currently are.
Post by: Risso on January 11, 2024, 10:16:55 AM
To me, we either knock down Villa Park and rebuild there, or we build a new ground somewhere else. There aren't any other options if we want to compete at the top end of the table, because no matter how big a stand we replace the current North Stand with, we've still got a hard limit of (about) 50,000 capacity as we can't make the Holte End, Trinity Road, or Witton Lane stands significantly bigger than they currently are.
Yes we can, we could fill in three of the corners as part of plans to redevelop the North and Doug Ellis. There's a huge amount of space between the North and the Doug for a start. Plus they could make the North even bigger.
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 10:27:24 AM
But there's also been articles on the 76ers etc about making money, more than we make in 8 years and from Americas working class sport. Can he ride roughshod over fans? He shouldn't, but I think he can given Purslow's greatest achievement was to remove any elasticity from the supply of tickets. Supporting us now is unique in that 150 year history. We are all SeattleVillain now.
A major event has taken place with de facto Comcast buying a chunk of NWSE and by virtue now owning a chunk of Villa Park. You don't see plans, I don't see coincidences. Comcast are here because of Heck and strategically NWSE are obviously satisfied with the strategic change to give up a piece of the pie.
If we don't think Swaris in particular hasn't a handle on it, then we're perhaps ignoring his booting of Gerrard, pursuit of Emery, throat clearing at the Adidas board meeting etc. Swaris is a hands on chap.
A new ground on a different site, around the area where the old Albion at Aston is (derelict sites and old factory mixed with [cheaply!] built newer units, some early 20th student housing, the abandoned Office wearhouse, the Old BRMB unit, gas works- fundamentally around Chester Street. That's what I'd do. Maintain the highest possible attendance and build afresh adjacent to the city centre- New Street the station of choice; A38, A45 all easy reach. I think that's being considered (the new build, not my suggested location).
Post by: PeterWithe on January 11, 2024, 10:27:42 AM
I think it all points, not too comprehensively Ill concede, to a much bigger plan.
Post by: VillaTim on January 11, 2024, 10:31:18 AM
I have a nagging feeling that the North Stand will outlive mei reckon that stand could survive a direct nuclear hit
Post by: Villan82 on January 11, 2024, 10:31:50 AM
Agree totally here (except that, like Villa mole, I'd pick marmalade over jam any day of the week). Villa Park as it currently stands was built at a time when we had an average attendance of about 30,000. I don't know what our current average attendance is, but it must be over 40,000 - and the only reason it's not higher is because the ground is at it's physical limit more often than not.So we waste the Emery years in the hope that we do something long in the future? Don't worry, there will be jam tomorrow.If we agree that a stadium closes the gap, then timescale is irrelevant, it is what must be done and the sooner it commences, the better.
It's not irrelevant if it means we spend the next ten years in the same sized stadium we have now.
That's a difficult choice that has to be made. You can't do both.
I dont understand your conclusion.
We have a capability gap. The new North would not remove that gap. So we shouldn't start work on the solution that does remove the gap, maybe even puts us in front of a number, because it's a long term plan?
This is a very UK attitude. I'll use an analogy we've all felt, rich or poor these past few years. The sort of thinking that saw reactors like the (now) Madox site in Ffestiniog decommissioned in 1991 and nothing built to replace it (when strike prices were much lower) and yet here we are with increased energy prices. Susceptible to wilder variation because we didn't bridge capability gaps.
I want jam tomorrow and for the next 50 years because that's what we need, not marmalade. Nobody wants marmalade.
To me, we either knock down Villa Park and rebuild there, or we build a new ground somewhere else. There aren't any other options if we want to compete at the top end of the table, because no matter how big a stand we replace the current North Stand with, we've still got a hard limit of (about) 50,000 capacity as we can't make the Holte End, Trinity Road, or Witton Lane stands significantly bigger than they currently are.
Their plans, now scrapped, were to get Villa Park to 52,000 by building a new North stand, making adjustment to increase the capacity of the Trinity and making realignments in a phase 2. I am convinced we could build a deeper (not necessarily higher obviously) stand across Witton Lane. If we were able to build over the Trinity road surely we could at least build over witton lane and long-term we may even be able to (ethically!!!) buy the houses enabling us to build a megga stand on that side. Ironically, the Witton lane side was the main stand before the old Trinity was build in 1924.
Just get us to 50k as planned FFS. Can you imagine how far off a new build would be and the potential problems it would run into with all the global uncertainty (potential four years of a protectionist Trump presidency for starters).
Post by: Villan82 on January 11, 2024, 10:33:46 AM
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 10:34:39 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 11, 2024, 10:38:50 AM
Aschually, the new North would have lead to a sell out Villa Park (not counting segregation) of 49 thousand odd. We'd not have got that big club "5" to start our attendance with. Which I have to say, is a bit pathetic. £100m to be a marginally bigger Stadium of Light. Na.You're just making stuff up now.
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 10:43:37 AM
Aschually, the new North would have lead to a sell out Villa Park (not counting segregation) of 49 thousand odd. We'd not have got that big club "5" to start our attendance with. Which I have to say, is a bit pathetic. £100m to be a marginally bigger Stadium of Light. Na.You're just making stuff up now.
I dont make things up.
We wouldn't have had a 50,000 attendance as there wasn't 50,000 seats. And that's before segregation. Anti-climatic isn't it? (And yes, the club have said in broad brush press releases on multiple occasions that it will be a "50,000 plus" increase. However, that is not/was not the case. [Third edit to satisfy, I will dig out the part of the PP, but we have permission for 7300ish additional seats; as Villa Park has less than 42,701 seats, we would be 50/60 shy of 50,000- notwithstanding the 500 or so we lose for away segregation.]
Let's mesh 75% of Ibrox with 25% Westfalenstadion and have the best ground in the world.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 11, 2024, 10:50:51 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 11, 2024, 10:51:30 AM
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 10:55:14 AM
so where did the 50,500 that they stated come from?
As it sounds good. Why you wouldn't just design it to breach 50k I do not know. But 19 sell outs a season would have left an average of 49,500 and change. Which would bug the life out of me.
It would also be tricky to wrap the Witton upper with the new North Upper like Risso suggested, as there is/was a structural roof support that runs diagonally down, starting outside of the Witton's foot print and tapering into the block R area. Such is/was the size of the Upper North, you'd have to have an absolute huge Witton to link too. That requires the removal of Witton Lane to build. Phase II would have posed huge challenges.
£100m to box yourself into a project that doesnt achive what we need. So let's build a new ground.
Post by: paul_e on January 11, 2024, 11:02:11 AM
I dont want to turn this into a discussion about Heck, but I think you're quick to judgment there calling him a fraud. He's not by any definition of the word. He's abrasive for sure; somebody posted an article about roughing up the NewJerseyYork Red Bulls fans. He's ruffled feathers a plenty here by redelivering the Lerner badge with some minor alterations. That badge wasn't popular already, the manner of its rebirth isn't going to ameliorate that.
But there's also been articles on the 76ers etc about making money, more than we make in 8 years and from Americas working class sport. Can he ride roughshod over fans? He shouldn't, but I think he can given Purslow's greatest achievement was to remove any elasticity from the supply of tickets. Supporting us now is unique in that 150 year history. We are all SeattleVillain now.
A major event has taken place with de facto Comcast buying a chunk of NWSE and by virtue now owning a chunk of Villa Park. You don't see plans, I don't see coincidences. Comcast are here because of Heck and strategically NWSE are obviously satisfied with the strategic change to give up a piece of the pie.
If we don't think Swaris in particular hasn't a handle on it, then we're perhaps ignoring his booting of Gerrard, pursuit of Emery, throat clearing at the Adidas board meeting etc. Swaris is a hands on chap.
A new ground on a different site, around the area where the old Albion at Aston is (derelict sites and old factory mixed with [cheaply!] built newer units, some early 20th student housing, the abandoned Office wearhouse, the Old BRMB unit, gas works- fundamentally around Chester Street. That's what I'd do. Maintain the highest possible attendance and build afresh adjacent to the city centre- New Street the station of choice; A38, A45 all easy reach. I think that's being considered (the new build, not my suggested location).
I agree on the location, that's where I've been looking all along, it ticks all the boxes for me.
Post by: LeeS on January 11, 2024, 11:16:28 AM
I dont want to turn this into a discussion about Heck, but I think you're quick to judgment there calling him a fraud. He's not by any definition of the word. He's abrasive for sure; somebody posted an article about roughing up the NewJerseyYork Red Bulls fans. He's ruffled feathers a plenty here by redelivering the Lerner badge with some minor alterations. That badge wasn't popular already, the manner of its rebirth isn't going to ameliorate that.
But there's also been articles on the 76ers etc about making money, more than we make in 8 years and from Americas working class sport. Can he ride roughshod over fans? He shouldn't, but I think he can given Purslow's greatest achievement was to remove any elasticity from the supply of tickets. Supporting us now is unique in that 150 year history. We are all SeattleVillain now.
A major event has taken place with de facto Comcast buying a chunk of NWSE and by virtue now owning a chunk of Villa Park. You don't see plans, I don't see coincidences. Comcast are here because of Heck and strategically NWSE are obviously satisfied with the strategic change to give up a piece of the pie.
If we don't think Swaris in particular hasn't a handle on it, then we're perhaps ignoring his booting of Gerrard, pursuit of Emery, throat clearing at the Adidas board meeting etc. Swaris is a hands on chap.
A new ground on a different site, around the area where the old Albion at Aston is (derelict sites and old factory mixed with [cheaply!] built newer units, some early 20th student housing, the abandoned Office wearhouse, the Old BRMB unit, gas works- fundamentally around Chester Street. That's what I'd do. Maintain the highest possible attendance and build afresh adjacent to the city centre- New Street the station of choice; A38, A45 all easy reach. I think that's being considered (the new build, not my suggested location).
Great post. I'd love to stay at VP forever and I'd love it to remain as a romantic link to football grounds of old. But Aston Villa Football Club needs to thrive for another 150 years. We should make the difficult decisions that give us the best chance of staying at the top. I'd say it probably needs outsiders who don't have our sentimental attachment to make those hard choices.
Having said that, if they move us to the NEC I'll be livid.
Post by: LeeB on January 11, 2024, 11:18:35 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 11, 2024, 11:19:54 AM
nearby that would be great
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 11, 2024, 11:34:34 AM
A new site would mean projecting into the future and building a big MonsterBastardDome out of the bones of the vanquished.
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 11:44:44 AM
I'm all for keeping Villa Park at Villa Park, and having it look like Villa Park, but if we were to move then there's no point building an ersatz Victorian theme park.
A new site would mean projecting into the future and building a big MonsterBastardDome out of the bones of the vanquished.
A triumphal arch with a sculpture of Heck defiling the holiest of Holtes, carrying off the plunder of the mid-10s mosaics to fund the MonsterBastardDome Colosseum.
Post by: paul_e on January 11, 2024, 11:50:46 AM
I'm all for keeping Villa Park at Villa Park, and having it look like Villa Park, but if we were to move then there's no point building an ersatz Victorian theme park.
A new site would mean projecting into the future and building a big MonsterBastardDome out of the bones of the vanquished.
I wouldn't go as far as a "victorian theme park" but I'd love it to be a hybrid of red brick and glass, I just think it looks fantastic and would be instantly iconic.
AI fun:
(https://i.ibb.co/Tb10rcn/78426ce4-4ed8-40e2-838e-1b2b42216f14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tb10rcn)
Maybe not so much mess around the roof but something leaning towards that.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 11, 2024, 11:54:18 AM
1. Move to city centre location - ground that’s a year round venue/attraction,
2. Redevelop villa park with all its quirks.
3. NEC
4. New ground at villa park - I struggle to see the benefits of this. All the costs without the location for gigs etc.
Post by: olaftab on January 11, 2024, 11:56:44 AM
Lol, agreed, common sense you come to expect from posters called Lee plus surname initial.(google's to check if name can be changed to LeeA, to gain much needed posting credibility)
Post by: chrisw1 on January 11, 2024, 11:58:38 AM
If we could create a 60.000 Victorian Hybrid with 4 stands with sweeping staircases ornate gables and balconiesIf they build a new 60k stadium, I can guarantee you it won't be 4 stands with Victorian style gables.
nearby that would be great
Post by: paul_e on January 11, 2024, 11:58:41 AM
I was against a move when this debate started but now, in order, my preferences are:
1. Move to city centre location - ground that’s a year round venue/attraction,
2. Redevelop villa park with all its quirks.
3. NEC
4. New ground at villa park - I struggle to see the benefits of this. All the costs without the location for gigs etc.
I'd swap the last 2 because I see absolutely no value in going to the NEC but otherwise I agree. City Centre needs some definition though.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 11, 2024, 11:59:54 AM
I'm all for keeping Villa Park at Villa Park, and having it look like Villa Park, but if we were to move then there's no point building an ersatz Victorian theme park.
A new site would mean projecting into the future and building a big MonsterBastardDome out of the bones of the vanquished.
A triumphal arch with a sculpture of Heck defiling the holiest of Holtes, carrying off the plunder of the mid-10s mosaics to fund the MonsterBastardDome Colosseum.
More or less, although perhaps the sculpture could be of someone less divisive than Heck. Maybe Steve Hodge or Gil Merrick.
Post by: eamonn on January 11, 2024, 12:01:13 PM
Post by: LeeS on January 11, 2024, 12:04:32 PM
Should we really be worrying about a new Villa Park for the next 150 years? A.I. and Global Warming are gonna team-tag humanoids out of existence by the end of the century. You may as well stop having children now, it won't be fair on them.
Those sentient AI bots will be the next generation of paying fans. Probably wont need beer or pies though.
Post by: Risso on January 11, 2024, 12:04:59 PM
so where did the 50,500 that they stated come from?
As it sounds good. Why you wouldn't just design it to breach 50k I do not know. But 19 sell outs a season would have left an average of 49,500 and change. Which would bug the life out of me.
It would also be tricky to wrap the Witton upper with the new North Upper like Risso suggested, as there is/was a structural roof support that runs diagonally down, starting outside of the Witton's foot print and tapering into the block R area. Such is/was the size of the Upper North, you'd have to have an absolute huge Witton to link too. That requires the removal of Witton Lane to build. Phase II would have posed huge challenges.
£100m to box yourself into a project that doesnt achive what we need. So let's build a new ground.
It's all possible though, and has been done many times to other grounds around the country. So to me it's a choice between having a capacity of 50,000 in two years and then 60,000 in 4-5 years, for say £250m total cost or a new 60,000 stadium somewhere else so far unidentified in 10 ten years + for £1bn plus. In terms of boosting revenue sooner rather than later, and also total cost I can't see why they'd go for the second option.
Post by: Risso on January 11, 2024, 12:07:04 PM
If we could create a 60.000 Victorian Hybrid with 4 stands with sweeping staircases ornate gables and balconiesIf they build a new 60k stadium, I can guarantee you it won't be 4 stands with Victorian style gables.
nearby that would be great
All this talk about four separate stands ignore the fact that for a very long time, Villa Park looked like this:
(https://i.ibb.co/qmbnVfw/Screenshot-2024-01-11-at-10-18-08.png) (https://ibb.co/qmbnVfw)
Post by: Pat Mustard on January 11, 2024, 12:08:14 PM
I dont want to turn this into a discussion about Heck, but I think you're quick to judgment there calling him a fraud. He's not by any definition of the word. He's abrasive for sure; somebody posted an article about roughing up the NewJerseyYork Red Bulls fans. He's ruffled feathers a plenty here by redelivering the Lerner badge with some minor alterations. That badge wasn't popular already, the manner of its rebirth isn't going to ameliorate that.
But there's also been articles on the 76ers etc about making money, more than we make in 8 years and from Americas working class sport. Can he ride roughshod over fans? He shouldn't, but I think he can given Purslow's greatest achievement was to remove any elasticity from the supply of tickets. Supporting us now is unique in that 150 year history. We are all SeattleVillain now.
A major event has taken place with de facto Comcast buying a chunk of NWSE and by virtue now owning a chunk of Villa Park. You don't see plans, I don't see coincidences. Comcast are here because of Heck and strategically NWSE are obviously satisfied with the strategic change to give up a piece of the pie.
If we don't think Swaris in particular hasn't a handle on it, then we're perhaps ignoring his booting of Gerrard, pursuit of Emery, throat clearing at the Adidas board meeting etc. Swaris is a hands on chap.
A new ground on a different site, around the area where the old Albion at Aston is (derelict sites and old factory mixed with [cheaply!] built newer units, some early 20th student housing, the abandoned Office wearhouse, the Old BRMB unit, gas works- fundamentally around Chester Street. That's what I'd do. Maintain the highest possible attendance and build afresh adjacent to the city centre- New Street the station of choice; A38, A45 all easy reach. I think that's being considered (the new build, not my suggested location).
Great post. I'd love to stay at VP forever and I'd love it to remain as a romantic link to football grounds of old. But Aston Villa Football Club needs to thrive for another 150 years. We should make the difficult decisions that give us the best chance of staying at the top. I'd say it probably needs outsiders who don't have our sentimental attachment to make those hard choices.
Having said that, if they move us to the NEC I'll be livid.
If we think extending Witton Lane because of the houses is a non-starter then I don't know how we would even begin to get that site within the next 20 years. There are loads of existing businesses that would be affected/demolished, council offices, hotels, houses and even a travellers site - logistically and politically this would be an absolute nightmare to pull off.
I'm not against the idea of a new stadium if it is achievable in a realistic timeframe, but I would maintain the only realistic site within a few miles of where we are now is at Birmingham Wheels i.e. next door to The Sty. The land is being cleared and the council are desperate to get money in the coffers. Any other places where there is sufficient space to build an enormo-dome are going to be further from the city centre than we are now, and with transport links far worse than we have at VP - it's one of the problems of living in the largest sity in Europe that doesn't have a proper metro or light-rail system.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 11, 2024, 12:09:47 PM
I'm all for keeping Villa Park at Villa Park, and having it look like Villa Park, but if we were to move then there's no point building an ersatz Victorian theme park.
A new site would mean projecting into the future and building a big MonsterBastardDome out of the bones of the vanquished.
I wouldn't go as far as a "victorian theme park" but I'd love it to be a hybrid of red brick and glass, I just think it looks fantastic and would be instantly iconic.
AI fun:
(https://i.ibb.co/Tb10rcn/78426ce4-4ed8-40e2-838e-1b2b42216f14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tb10rcn)
Maybe not so much mess around the roof but something leaning towards that.
That does look pretty good. We'd just need to add a few tyre fires at the walk-up to the away end. And a moat and a couple of iron trebuchets next to the burger vans.
Post by: Des Little on January 11, 2024, 12:11:49 PM
Post by: Chris Smith on January 11, 2024, 12:13:44 PM
I was against a move when this debate started but now, in order, my preferences are:
1. Move to city centre location - ground that’s a year round venue/attraction,
2. Redevelop villa park with all its quirks.
3. NEC
4. New ground at villa park - I struggle to see the benefits of this. All the costs without the location for gigs etc.
I really think the City Centre is a non starter.
Post by: VillaTim on January 11, 2024, 12:14:47 PM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 11, 2024, 12:18:34 PM
I was against a move when this debate started but now, in order, my preferences are:
1. Move to city centre location - ground that’s a year round venue/attraction,
2. Redevelop villa park with all its quirks.
3. NEC
4. New ground at villa park - I struggle to see the benefits of this. All the costs without the location for gigs etc.
I'd swap the last 2 because I see absolutely no value in going to the NEC but otherwise I agree. City Centre needs some definition though.
For me, city centre means walking distance from new street/HS2. That will help with the ‘year round’ part and also mean we can more easily cash in on causal football fans prepared to spend more per game.
I shouldn’t care but it’d blow Birmingham City out the water too. Birmingham = Aston Villa
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 12:27:10 PM
so where did the 50,500 that they stated come from?
As it sounds good. Why you wouldn't just design it to breach 50k I do not know. But 19 sell outs a season would have left an average of 49,500 and change. Which would bug the life out of me.
It would also be tricky to wrap the Witton upper with the new North Upper like Risso suggested, as there is/was a structural roof support that runs diagonally down, starting outside of the Witton's foot print and tapering into the block R area. Such is/was the size of the Upper North, you'd have to have an absolute huge Witton to link too. That requires the removal of Witton Lane to build. Phase II would have posed huge challenges.
£100m to box yourself into a project that doesnt achive what we need. So let's build a new ground.
It's all possible though, and has been done many times to other grounds around the country. So to me it's a choice between having a capacity of 50,000 in two years and then 60,000 in 4-5 years, for say £250m total cost or a new 60,000 stadium somewhere else so far unidentified in 10 ten years + for £1bn plus. In terms of boosting revenue sooner rather than later, and also total cost I can't see why they'd go for the second option.
Everything is a trade off as unfortunately NWSE came in 2018 and not the summer of 2015. Ifs, buts etc, but maybe that new build would be a couple years out.
I think your point about actual Victorian era Villa Park and thereafter is a good one. You and others have said many times that what people love about the ground externally, is something roughly 15 years old, tacked onto a stand roughly 29 years old. Villa Park is an illusion in the imagination of football fans and should impress upon us that sentimentality means nothing.
A new build with some red bricks mixed amongst the steel and glass panes would create the same nods of global approval as Lerner's mosaic on Doug's Holte.
Post by: LeeB on January 11, 2024, 12:29:00 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/mqjTfrN/imagesarc.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqjTfrN)
images upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Post by: Simon Page on January 11, 2024, 12:35:20 PM
Most of all, though, decent view, decent price, decent availability, decent team, decent toilets, decent service.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 11, 2024, 12:38:07 PM
Retail is dead anyway, should knock the Bull Ring down and stick it there. And put a triumphal arc outside as Ads suggests, something like below.
(https://i.ibb.co/mqjTfrN/imagesarc.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqjTfrN)
images upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Not only is retail dead, office working is too. That should give plenty of scope for an Escobar-style zoo/wildlife park to replace what we'd be losing with Aston Park. Imagine that, actual crocodiles, lions, rhinoceros. All too scared to drink in town.
Post by: Risso on January 11, 2024, 12:39:57 PM
Post by: Ads on January 11, 2024, 12:47:25 PM
As I said before, if they do go down the new stadium route away from Aston, then it'll have to be a site big enough for mixed use, because they'll want more of a return than just match day income which will be ploughed back into the club. They'll want retail, leisure, office space and restaurants etc. Think "Stadium District."
It would/should be visible from the Tilton too. Nothing says imperial dominance like having to stare at the object of your misery in what is supposed to be your "fun" hobby.
Post by: LeeB on January 11, 2024, 12:51:18 PM
As I said before, if they do go down the new stadium route away from Aston, then it'll have to be a site big enough for mixed use, because they'll want more of a return than just match day income which will be ploughed back into the club. They'll want retail, leisure, office space and restaurants etc. Think "Stadium District."
It would/should be visible from the Tilton too. Nothing says imperial dominance like having to stare at the object of your misery in what is supposed to be your "fun" hobby.
It's needs to visible from space let alone the Tilton.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 11, 2024, 12:52:34 PM
I think you're crackers if you seriously think we're going to move. As Risso says, you'd need a "stadium district", something that's not currently possible in the central Brum area.As I said before, if they do go down the new stadium route away from Aston, then it'll have to be a site big enough for mixed use, because they'll want more of a return than just match day income which will be ploughed back into the club. They'll want retail, leisure, office space and restaurants etc. Think "Stadium District."
It would/should be visible from the Tilton too. Nothing says imperial dominance like having to stare at the object of your misery in what is supposed to be your "fun" hobby.
The thought of new-VP being visible from the Tilton did make me titter though. It's almost a shame a stadium district wouldn't be possible for that reason alone.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 11, 2024, 01:14:14 PM
- We already own most of the land - we'd be starting from scratch and paying through the nose to buy in the centre.
- Any required CPOs are minimal compared to what you'd need to build in centre.
- Easier to win over fans if staying in historic location than it will be to move somewhere new.
- Construction would start quicker because the number of hurdles to get over are fewer.
- We maintain the history which is a valuable commodity in selling the Villa brand.
There are two drawbacks:
- The land we have isn't in the right shape so we need some CPOs. But this is likely in the majority of places we'd build that aren't in the sticks.
- We will have to spend time playing elsewhere and therefore forfeit an amount of match revenue.
So basically, is it worth all the extra hassle to try and build anywhere else or in the centre just so we can play at Villa Park to the death? I suspect the scales aren't going to tip that way.
Post by: dekko on January 11, 2024, 01:17:52 PM
Sadly though I think Heck wants to squeeze as much money as possible out of the matchgoing fans for a few years so he can pad his CV with good numbers, and long term plans will get in the way of that.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 11, 2024, 01:54:45 PM
Retail is dead anyway, should knock the Bull Ring down and stick it there. And put a triumphal arc outside as Ads suggests, something like below.
(https://i.ibb.co/mqjTfrN/imagesarc.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqjTfrN)
images upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Not only is retail dead, office working is too. That should give plenty of scope for an Escobar-style zoo/wildlife park to replace what we'd be losing with Aston Park. Imagine that, actual crocodiles, lions, rhinoceros. All too scared to drink in town.
This is something I suggested a long time ago - Win or Die. Every game we don't win, there's a poll to see which player should be fed to the crocodiles. If you charge an entry fee it should be a lucrative fundraiser and the wages we save would help with FFP.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 11, 2024, 02:01:31 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 11, 2024, 02:10:04 PM
Retail is dead anyway, should knock the Bull Ring down and stick it there. And put a triumphal arc outside as Ads suggests, something like below.
(https://i.ibb.co/mqjTfrN/imagesarc.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqjTfrN)
images upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Rather than swords, those should be actual field artillery cannons and on the stroke of midday every day, one should fire towards Sandwell and then other Small Heath.
Post by: VillaTim on January 11, 2024, 02:28:55 PM
I think a lot of whats happening points towards a potential move or total rebuild.if we are going to move i see that as a 10 year plan which would mean running B6 into the ground for a decade which won't be a nice way to bow out
Sadly though I think Heck wants to squeeze as much money as possible out of the matchgoing fans for a few years so he can pad his CV with good numbers, and long term plans will get in the way of that.
Post by: Hookeysmith on January 11, 2024, 02:59:14 PM
Retail is dead anyway, should knock the Bull Ring down and stick it there. And put a triumphal arc outside as Ads suggests, something like below.
(https://i.ibb.co/mqjTfrN/imagesarc.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqjTfrN)
images upload (https://imgbb.com/)
Rather than swords, those should be actual field artillery cannons and on the stroke of midday every day, one should fire towards Sandwell and then other Small Heath.
And after they were fired.....would anyone notice the damage?
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 11, 2024, 04:04:30 PM
Rebuilding where we are is actually one of the easiest solutions.
There are two drawbacks:
- The land we have isn't in the right shape so we need some CPOs. But this is likely in the majority of places we'd build that aren't in the sticks.
- We will have to spend time playing elsewhere and therefore forfeit an amount of match revenue.
A third drawback (and a big one) is that Aston will always struggle to be a year round mixed use stadium, so the income may not justify a new ground in that location. I’d guess our new investors will want a venue that can be sweated for optimum return.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 11, 2024, 04:18:29 PM
Rebuilding where we are is actually one of the easiest solutions.
There are two drawbacks:
- The land we have isn't in the right shape so we need some CPOs. But this is likely in the majority of places we'd build that aren't in the sticks.
- We will have to spend time playing elsewhere and therefore forfeit an amount of match revenue.
A third drawback (and a big one) is that Aston will always struggle to be a year round mixed use stadium, so the income may not justify a new ground in that location. I’d guess our new investors will want a venue that can be sweated for optimum return.
I'd expect if Comcast do end up managing the stadium, they'd have teams and experts in place to go out and find business. I'm not sure how much Villa have actually focused on doing that previously, but it would literally be the management company's top priority.
We've recently had conventions, concerts, superbikes, and are talking about the Euros. There's also the women's team they're trying to build up. It's the second city, there are opportunities there if we are in the right situation to go out and get them and have a dedicated team whose job it is to do that. And yes, the local area isn't the most attractive, but a £1bn project will make a big difference to that image.
Post by: Stu on January 11, 2024, 05:11:32 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 11, 2024, 05:20:39 PM
City centre location is a non-starter. Even if, for the sake of argument, we had found the site and had permissions etc...who's paying for it? Construction costs are astronomical now. How much would it cost to totally redevelop an area in the city centre with appropriate transport links and build a cutting edge stadium? £1bn? £2bn?£2.3Bn
Post by: DB on January 11, 2024, 07:17:47 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 11, 2024, 08:56:09 PM
I feel this thread is going around in circles.
NO! This thread needs to have four separate sides.
Post by: The Edge on January 11, 2024, 10:13:32 PM
I feel this thread is going around in circles.Definitely. And I blame one man for that. Chris Heck. His communication skills on this subject and others are absolutely chronic which has lead to endless speculation.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 11, 2024, 10:27:16 PM
I feel this thread is going around in circles.
NO! This thread needs to have four separate sides.
With gables 😃
Post by: VillaTim on January 11, 2024, 10:37:59 PM
And a subterranean levelI feel this thread is going around in circles.
NO! This thread needs to have four separate sides.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 12, 2024, 12:40:13 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAme3GKtJ_w&pp=ygUeV2h5IGFyZSBzdGFkaXVtcyBzbyBleHBlbnNpdmU_
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on January 12, 2024, 07:38:27 AM
Interesting video, Percy. I’ve also linked an FT article from this week on building stadiums, the main point being that they are now supposed to be entertainment complexes - year-round cash cows rather than somewhere people only visit 25 times a year. As mentioned above, is Aston really a likely location for such a place?
Post by: PeterWithe on January 12, 2024, 07:41:37 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 12, 2024, 08:10:24 AM
I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
Post by: Dogtanian on January 12, 2024, 08:12:45 AM
I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
Exactly, you spend £1bn on an area and it attracts other investment and can be part of a wider regeneration project. It already has Aston Hall and a state of the art Villa Park next door to it gives you two visitor pulls in close proximity.
The idea that the area could never be attractive just because it isn't now is a bit silly really. There's already been a big investment there with all the new units and businesses moving in. That's jobs and people coming in and out of the area on a daily basis. Why wouldn't these people want somewhere to eat and drink and why wouldn't people want to move into an area with lots of job opportunities?
The potential is there.
Post by: Villan82 on January 12, 2024, 08:22:55 AM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 12, 2024, 08:28:51 AM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. Booo
It doesn't say that at all. It says what has already been put on here several times, that losing the revenue of the stand for two seasons right now when we need every penny to hit FFP targets would limit our ability to improve the squad for next season.
As for a forward plan, it talks about feasibility studies taking place for a better solution. That's exactly what people on here have been saying too.
The costs going up have also been discussed and the idea that it's an expensive investment to make when it still leaves you with problems in the rest of the ground, which is why they will be looking at alternatives.
https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/ (https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/)
Post by: PeterWithe on January 12, 2024, 08:29:08 AM
I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
But presumably the first bit of that £12b was the stadium, that was the ‘anchor’ that led to the rest of the investment.
In the past it was said you couldn’t possibly expect bankers etc to travel away from the City to the east end, and then the Docklands were redeveloped.
The fairly shitty areas around Digbeth have been redeveloped and now attract visitors, why not Aston in the future?
Edit: sorry a point already made a few posts above.
Post by: Villan82 on January 12, 2024, 08:34:16 AM
Edit in response, the current stand has to be one that earns us the least in a season and has more than paid for itself over the past 45 years
Post by: PeterWithe on January 12, 2024, 08:37:11 AM
Post by: aev on January 12, 2024, 08:41:37 AM
No idea where, or how long it takes, but it solves the major problem of where do we play when Villa Park is rebuilt.
Post by: Villan82 on January 12, 2024, 08:42:18 AM
I console myself that if you wanted someone to come in and slash costs and put prices up, you could do it an awfully lot cheaper than dragging someone across the pond from a very well paying job to scrawl red lines through plans.
His first decision, within days of arriving, was to cancel the launch of the round badge planned for the final home game.
His next decision was to scrap the round badge and start again (delivering us Lerner badge mark 2, it would seem).
His big December announcement via an internal villa PR interview was to say he had studied carefully the North stand development from day one and considered it a 'thoughtful' proposal but ultiamtely we aren't doing it now.
Post by: Hopadop on January 12, 2024, 08:44:03 AM
Spurs eventually (after a lot of wrangling with Haringey council, threats to move to the Olympic stadium) built their new stadium in one of the most deprived parts of the country. I don't see why Villa couldn't stay put.
Post by: Villan82 on January 12, 2024, 08:45:18 AM
Post by: tomd2103 on January 12, 2024, 08:45:38 AM
City centre location is a non-starter. Even if, for the sake of argument, we had found the site and had permissions etc...who's paying for it? Construction costs are astronomical now. How much would it cost to totally redevelop an area in the city centre with appropriate transport links and build a cutting edge stadium? £1bn? £2bn?
If it were to be right in the in the city centre, the transport links are already there surely?
Post by: brontebilly on January 12, 2024, 08:48:15 AM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. Booo
It doesn't say that at all. It says what has already been put on here several times, that losing the revenue of the stand for two seasons right now when we need every penny to hit FFP targets would limit our ability to improve the squad for next season.
As for a forward plan, it talks about feasibility studies taking place for a better solution. That's exactly what people on here have been saying too.
The costs going up have also been discussed and the idea that it's an expensive investment to make when it still leaves you with problems in the rest of the ground, which is why they will be looking at alternatives.
https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/ (https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/)
There's never going to be a right time to improve the North Stand.
Other worrying note in that article is the likelihood a Luiz or Kamara might have to be sold to balance the books. I'm not sure how we improve by doing that.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 12, 2024, 08:55:22 AM
I console myself that if you wanted someone to come in and slash costs and put prices up, you could do it an awfully lot cheaper than dragging someone across the pond from a very well paying job to scrawl red lines through plans.
His first decision, within days of arriving, was to cancel the launch of the round badge planned for the final home game.
His next decision was to scrap the round badge and start again (delivering us Lerner badge mark 2, it would seem).
His big December announcement via an internal villa PR interview was to say he had studied carefully the North stand development from day one and considered it a 'thoughtful' proposal but ultiamtely we aren't doing it now.
Badges, smadges.
My point is that any of us could have cancelled the NS project for a day rate.
Why employ someone with his CV to just cut costs when you could put an ad in Erdington job centre?
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 08:55:37 AM
Including one of the largest shopping centres in the UK. There's no comparison whatsoever between Stratford and Aston.I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
Post by: PeterWithe on January 12, 2024, 08:57:01 AM
Including one of the largest shopping centres in the UK. There's no comparison whatsoever between Stratford and Aston.I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
Isn’t that the point? There is no comparison now, there was a stark comparison with how Stratford used to be before the stadium and investment
Post by: tomd2103 on January 12, 2024, 09:04:41 AM
Including one of the largest shopping centres in the UK. There's no comparison whatsoever between Stratford and Aston.I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
Isn’t that the point? There is no comparison now, there was a stark comparison with how Stratford used to be before the stadium and investment
Although I hate to admit it, areas in London are always going to have an advantage over areas in cities like Birmingham.
Post by: nigel on January 12, 2024, 09:05:16 AM
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 09:07:37 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 09:08:12 AM
Stratford was built for the Olympics, but even before that was a sizable population centre with it's own shopping centre and tube stations etc. The Olympics was the catalyst for huge investment, but London is large enough to support 100's of town centres which are already connected with a superb transport system. Aston is a residential suburb a 2 miles from Birmingham City Centre. It will never support it's own major commercial centre because it's just not needed.Including one of the largest shopping centres in the UK. There's no comparison whatsoever between Stratford and Aston.I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
Isn’t that the point? There is no comparison now, there was a stark comparison with how Stratford used to be before the stadium and investment
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 12, 2024, 09:08:47 AM
Including one of the largest shopping centres in the UK. There's no comparison whatsoever between Stratford and Aston.I suppose the counter to that is neither was Stratford but the construction of a stadium there regenerates the area and brings visitors and investment.
£12bn has been invested in regenerating Stratford though. According to my son who is studying it for his A Level geography ( and has a mock exam on it today)
Exactly my point
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 12, 2024, 09:17:30 AM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. Booo
It doesn't say that at all. It says what has already been put on here several times, that losing the revenue of the stand for two seasons right now when we need every penny to hit FFP targets would limit our ability to improve the squad for next season.
As for a forward plan, it talks about feasibility studies taking place for a better solution. That's exactly what people on here have been saying too.
The costs going up have also been discussed and the idea that it's an expensive investment to make when it still leaves you with problems in the rest of the ground, which is why they will be looking at alternatives.
https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/ (https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/)
There's never going to be a right time to improve the North Stand.
Other worrying note in that article is the likelihood a Luiz or Kamara might have to be sold to balance the books. I'm not sure how we improve by doing that.
Well, say if we got £50m for Kamara, that would be on the accounts this year. If we then bought two £50m players on 5 year contracts, that would be amortised at £20m a year over the length of their contracts. If they were two signings that turned out to be successful, that should improve us.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 12, 2024, 09:25:54 AM
That Maguire finance bloke on twitter has posted income figures for last year for all Premier League clubs. Our matchday income is absolutely pathetic, and no there's no realistic chance of it going up substantially in the next ten years, over and above what Heck can squeeze out of the current fan base.
He got his figures from last year’s accounts, so they were for the season before. Since then we’ve had two years of price rises, and this year we’ve had the UECL games. I agree with you, we won’t be catching the top teams up, but I reckon we’ll at least be moving above some of the tinpot shite we’ve been below recently.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 09:26:54 AM
Interesting video on new stadiums:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAme3GKtJ_w&pp=ygUeV2h5IGFyZSBzdGFkaXVtcyBzbyBleHBlbnNpdmU_
Thanks for the video. Illuminating stuff on prices. That £125m for Spurs really is the kicker.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 09:32:08 AM
That Maguire finance bloke on twitter has posted income figures for last year for all Premier League clubs. Our matchday income is absolutely pathetic, and no there's no realistic chance of it going up substantially in the next ten years, over and above what Heck can squeeze out of the current fan base.
What do you reckon as an accountant the new North would have done numbers wise? Your back of a fag packet calculations will be better than any of the rest of us. Assuming it would be 5000 GA, 2300 GA+/Corporate stuff (unless you reckon different on splits?).
Post by: PeterWithe on January 12, 2024, 09:34:17 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 09:37:29 AM
I think the splits would be a lot higher GA+ Not just in the stand itself, but there would have been a big increase in GA+ in the Trinity with a linked lounge / deck area between the two - with some fans relocated and the extra North stand seats facilitating that. I suspect that when taking that into account the majority of the extra 7,000 seats created would have been premium in some capacity.That Maguire finance bloke on twitter has posted income figures for last year for all Premier League clubs. Our matchday income is absolutely pathetic, and no there's no realistic chance of it going up substantially in the next ten years, over and above what Heck can squeeze out of the current fan base.
What do you reckon as an accountant the new North would have done numbers wise? Your back of a fag packet calculations will be better than any of the rest of us. Assuming it would be 5000 GA, 2300 GA+/Corporate stuff (unless you reckon different on splits?).
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 09:58:00 AM
That Maguire finance bloke on twitter has posted income figures for last year for all Premier League clubs. Our matchday income is absolutely pathetic, and no there's no realistic chance of it going up substantially in the next ten years, over and above what Heck can squeeze out of the current fan base.
What do you reckon as an accountant the new North would have done numbers wise? Your back of a fag packet calculations will be better than any of the rest of us. Assuming it would be 5000 GA, 2300 GA+/Corporate stuff (unless you reckon different on splits?).
Complete guess, but if your split guess is right, I'd say conservatively:
5,000 GA at say an average of £800 = £4m
2,300 hospitality/GA+ at an average of £6,000 = £13.8m
Back of a fag packet - £17.8m. I don't know what the average season ticket in the North is now, but whatever, that's a big increase in income that could be starting in 2026. Then do the Witton in another two years after that, and you could be looking at similar. So if we say off the top of my head, that in the ten years it would take to move and build something new, you'd lose 8 years at £10m extra profit from the North, and six years at £10m extra profit from the Doug, that's £140m at current prices we're not bringing in because we've decided to sit on our hands. Doesn't add up to me.
Post by: London Villan on January 12, 2024, 10:07:25 AM
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 10:07:43 AM
Post by: aev on January 12, 2024, 10:09:18 AM
London is nuts, there are so many businesses that buy them that I wonder if that is simply unrealistic for us to try and achieve their numbers?
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 10:12:09 AM
Post by: Villan82 on January 12, 2024, 10:22:22 AM
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 10:24:20 AM
That only works if we can sell an additional 3000 GA+/Premium seats... It's been said several times that take-up in the TV and LG has been poor - so that has probably spooked them.
There's a huge waiting list for proper hospitality in the Trinity, where it's about the best in the Premier League. If the Terrace View is struggling, it's because it's a crappy half-arsed botched effort, in a stand that shouldn't have it. My mate's got a GA+ thing at Arsenal, and it's very good. Nice seats, and a really decent area for before the match and half time etc. You feel like you're getting a lot more than the standard seats. The TV and LG are just short term poor efforts to try to bring a few more quid in. It's symptomatic of the short term thinking thus far from Heck. A new North if done properly would have all of this planned out in advance.
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 10:28:10 AM
How many businesses in Birmingham have season tickets / corporate hospitality at Villa?
London is nuts, there are so many businesses that buy them that I wonder if that is simply unrealistic for us to try and achieve their numbers?
Boxes are a bit old hat now. I've had a four seat table in one one of the restaurant areas for years now, and I wouldn't swap it for a box. There's a real buzz, with former players walking around, and you get to know the people on the tables around you so it's a lot more social than being behind a closed door. And obviously you can get a lot more people in a set area, than you can if it's a box. Honestly, we'd sell it out several times over, they could make the whole North corporate and it would sell, they really do it very well.
Post by: London Villan on January 12, 2024, 10:28:26 AM
Look at man city - look at what they offer, its mind-blowing for a team that 15 years ago were a mid table PL team https://www.mancity.com/hospitality/mens - must be 15000 premium seats - that didn't happen overnight though.
Post by: LeeS on January 12, 2024, 10:30:41 AM
A new stadium in Aston wont bring any of those things. Not in five years, not ever.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 10:31:26 AM
Post by: aev on January 12, 2024, 10:34:40 AM
How many businesses in Birmingham have season tickets / corporate hospitality at Villa?
London is nuts, there are so many businesses that buy them that I wonder if that is simply unrealistic for us to try and achieve their numbers?
Boxes are a bit old hat now. I've had a four seat table in one one of the restaurant areas for years now, and I wouldn't swap it for a box. There's a real buzz, with former players walking around, and you get to know the people on the tables around you so it's a lot more social than being behind a closed door. And obviously you can get a lot more people in a set area, than you can if it's a box. Honestly, we'd sell it out several times over, they could make the whole North corporate and it would sell, they really do it very well.
Which makes it all the more baffling to put it all on hold despite the Comcast tie in, unless a new stadium is the aim.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 10:40:41 AM
Post by: London Villan on January 12, 2024, 10:44:03 AM
The hospitality for these could be in semi-permanent marquees in the car park?
Post by: LeeS on January 12, 2024, 10:44:23 AM
In the days pre-internet (or if we had better things to do), we'd have had the announcement, grumbled a bit in the pub that week, forgotten about it and then a couple of months later had a follow up announcement settling the issue. Its nice to speculate on what might happen but all the angst comes from constantly talking about it, not from the clubs actions.
Right, so has anyone got any more fancy mock ups of brick built football cathedrals we can drool over?
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 10:44:50 AM
I wonder if you could get a middle tier in the North for corporate by getting rid of the boxes? That's probably the only place you could add a few hundred seats.
Anything they do there would be an improvement, those boxes are an embarrassment, behind glass that doesn't open, it's like watching the game on TV. But to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, just knock the fucking thing down and get it rebuilt, then do the Witton. We can't afford to be stuck in a 42K seater stadium for the next ten years.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 12, 2024, 10:46:36 AM
Rip out the boxes and you could probably have 10ish additional rows - not sure if you'd be able to fit many more in with the sight lines? 1000 seats at a push.
The hospitality for these could be in semi-permanent marquees in the car park?
Even if it were physically possible to replace executive boxes with 10 rows of seats - and the infrastructure needed to create access to and from these rows of seats - imagine the expense, and then think about the lost box revenue (which you'll never recover from tents in a car park).
Post by: LeeS on January 12, 2024, 10:51:15 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 12, 2024, 10:55:03 AM
I wonder how long until someone decides to use the space directly above the pitch. You build a glass viewing platform that covers the entire space from stand to stand in all directions, 100feet up in the air. You then allocate standing spaces with spectators watching from above (by looking down past their own shoes). The perspective would be mind blowing. I reckon you could fit another 5,000 in that way. It would also serve as a roof so keeping all the noise from the main crowd in the stadium.
That is an obviously batshit idea. I approve of it in the strongest terms.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 10:55:49 AM
I wonder if you could get a middle tier in the North for corporate by getting rid of the boxes? That's probably the only place you could add a few hundred seats.
Anything they do there would be an improvement, those boxes are an embarrassment, behind glass that doesn't open, it's like watching the game on TV. But to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, just knock the fucking thing down and get it rebuilt, then do the Witton. We can't afford to be stuck in a 42K seater stadium for the next ten years.
When I went on the tour the bit where those boxes must have their "concourse" was very fancy. I'm not sure on numbers, but there's 20 boxes- 10 people a go(?) that's a silly use of space. We could hollow out that space for genuine GA+/corporate and get a fancy tier in to satisfy some of the demand that might take us to 44,000 at least. Better than nowt and I cannot really see anywhere else viable for additional seats. I agree the boxes look dire.
Get rid of the first aid hole and add a hundred more seats in the normal lower North. Few little things we could do.
Post by: London Villan on January 12, 2024, 11:02:05 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 12, 2024, 11:02:49 AM
I wonder if you could get a middle tier in the North for corporate by getting rid of the boxes? That's probably the only place you could add a few hundred seats.
Anything they do there would be an improvement, those boxes are an embarrassment, behind glass that doesn't open, it's like watching the game on TV. But to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, just knock the fucking thing down and get it rebuilt, then do the Witton. We can't afford to be stuck in a 42K seater stadium for the next ten years.
They've already taken out one level of the boxes to make the Gas Lamp lounge or whatever it's called.
Post by: Simon Page on January 12, 2024, 11:13:39 AM
I wonder how long until someone decides to use the space directly above the pitch. You build a glass viewing platform that covers the entire space from stand to stand in all directions, 100feet up in the air. You then allocate standing spaces with spectators watching from above (by looking down past their own shoes). The perspective would be mind blowing. I reckon you could fit another 5,000 in that way. It would also serve as a roof so keeping all the noise from the main crowd in the stadium.
That is an obviously batshit idea. I approve of it in the strongest terms.
You need to think about cost/be more Doug. Just thin netting for catching any of our 10,000 drones. Rent out the drones on a match-by-match basis (with a landing fee), maybe across the Far East. Do a deal with Deliveroo for the half time rootbeer and dawg franchise. Reduces the police invoice too. Add in commentary or, for the GAGA+++ version, a mute button. They can be individually branded with different crests.
Post by: algy on January 12, 2024, 11:17:16 AM
This is the future of the VillaDrome.I wonder how long until someone decides to use the space directly above the pitch. You build a glass viewing platform that covers the entire space from stand to stand in all directions, 100feet up in the air. You then allocate standing spaces with spectators watching from above (by looking down past their own shoes). The perspective would be mind blowing. I reckon you could fit another 5,000 in that way. It would also serve as a roof so keeping all the noise from the main crowd in the stadium.
That is an obviously batshit idea. I approve of it in the strongest terms.
With all the fancy improvements in artificial turf, might it be possible to have glass under the pitch too? Have a giant cheese room underneath the pitch where everyone can gaze at SJM's arse from below, whilst munching on some fancy Comte and those posh charcoal black crackers you can get from Waitrose.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on January 12, 2024, 11:21:26 AM
Post by: AV82EC on January 12, 2024, 11:23:26 AM
This is the future of the VillaDrome.I wonder how long until someone decides to use the space directly above the pitch. You build a glass viewing platform that covers the entire space from stand to stand in all directions, 100feet up in the air. You then allocate standing spaces with spectators watching from above (by looking down past their own shoes). The perspective would be mind blowing. I reckon you could fit another 5,000 in that way. It would also serve as a roof so keeping all the noise from the main crowd in the stadium.
That is an obviously batshit idea. I approve of it in the strongest terms.
With all the fancy improvements in artificial turf, might it be possible to have glass under the pitch too? Have a giant cheese room underneath the pitch where everyone can gaze at SJM's arse from below, whilst munching on some fancy Comte and those posh charcoal black crackers you can get from Waitrose.
Comte and charcoal sourdough crackers from Waitrose, now we’re talking. Take my money…..
Post by: Nev on January 12, 2024, 11:26:46 AM
What is happening with theboxesshell units high up in the Doug Ellis. They have been there an age doing absolutely nothing. Were they ever meant to be anything long term?
I recall they were put in for extra press capacity during Euro '96. The access is rudimentary and with no facilities there is no scope for corporate use so you just see cameras and the like up there.
Thinking about it Heck could have a look. Yeah, Trinity View - fan focussed experience at £60 a pop and a free plastic bottle to piss into, handed to you as start to climb the steel ladder to your bench seat. Premium seats in the middle at £80, with a see though polythene screen to keep that cutting wind out.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 11:27:17 AM
What is happening with theboxesshell units high up in the Doug Ellis. They have been there an age doing absolutely nothing. Were they ever meant to be anything long term?
Isn't it for the TV up there? Not sure where you'd be able to put facilities, but the view would be tremendous.
Post by: LeeB on January 12, 2024, 11:33:45 AM
What is happening with theboxesshell units high up in the Doug Ellis. They have been there an age doing absolutely nothing. Were they ever meant to be anything long term?
Isn't it for the TV up there? Not sure where you'd be able to put facilities, but the view would be tremendous.
Get a couple of thousand in up there, call it the 'Olympic Gallery' as you need to be an olympian to get up and down the ladder to it.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 11:38:20 AM
What is happening with theboxesshell units high up in the Doug Ellis. They have been there an age doing absolutely nothing. Were they ever meant to be anything long term?
Isn't it for the TV up there? Not sure where you'd be able to put facilities, but the view would be tremendous.
Get a couple of thousand in up there, call it the 'Olympic Gallery' as you need to be an olympian to get up and down the ladder to it.
We could use the same technology that they have for Air/Galaxy at Alton Towers to fix people into the roof and then angle them down to face the action.
Post by: olaftab on January 12, 2024, 11:42:15 AM
Thinking about it Heck could have a look. Yeah, Trinity View - fan focussed experience at £60 a pop and a free plastic bottle to piss into, handed to you as start to climb the steel ladder to your bench seat. Premium seats in the middle at £80, with a see though polythene screen to keep that cutting wind out.Surely the privileged seatolders will be entitled to piss on the plebs in DE Upper?
Post by: Gareth on January 12, 2024, 11:44:33 AM
Wouldn’t be much different to the bogs in that stand nowThinking about it Heck could have a look. Yeah, Trinity View - fan focussed experience at £60 a pop and a free plastic bottle to piss into, handed to you as start to climb the steel ladder to your bench seat. Premium seats in the middle at £80, with a see though polythene screen to keep that cutting wind out.Surely the privileged seatolders will be entitled to piss on the plebs in DE Upper?
Post by: Brend'Watkins on January 12, 2024, 11:59:04 AM
What is happening with theboxesshell units high up in the Doug Ellis. They have been there an age doing absolutely nothing. Were they ever meant to be anything long term?
Isn't it for the TV up there? Not sure where you'd be able to put facilities, but the view would be tremendous.
Get a couple of thousand in up there, call it the 'Olympic Gallery' as you need to be an olympian to get up and down the ladder to it.
Joking aside, why not something like that? There is a huge void of space to work with. Roof might need to come off and be reconfigured/raised*. Escalators would sort the less able. It's not going to massively increase the capacity but it could massively increase the capacity of the kind of support 'they' are really looking for.
* yes, I've considered the potential for blocking out sunlight for local residents.
Post by: tomd2103 on January 12, 2024, 12:08:11 PM
Rip out the boxes and you could probably have 10ish additional rows - not sure if you'd be able to fit many more in with the sight lines? 1000 seats at a push.
The hospitality for these could be in semi-permanent marquees in the car park?
I think quite a few families of the players use the boxes in the North Stand. I sit in the lower North Stand and quite a few of them wave in that direction when they are coming out and going off the pitch.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 12, 2024, 12:09:33 PM
Yours,
Sexual Ealing GCSE
P.s. I can't believe they haven't thought of this! Emailing the club now...
Post by: LeeB on January 12, 2024, 02:37:51 PM
Post by: The Edge on January 12, 2024, 02:53:16 PM
I'm procrastinating. Luckily for the citizens of H&V, that means I'm thinking about things that make no material difference to my life. I know we can't do much with the Witton, but couldn't we add a tier to the North/Trinity/Holte? That wouldn't impact light into houses too much (would it?)What an excellent point. With all the wacky suggestions on H&V (including my own) for expanding the capacity none of us have mentioned this. But you're correct in saying that an extra tier on the Holte, North and Trinity do not impinge on anyone's daylight. Throw in a tunnel under the Trinity and the corners between the Holte/Trinity/North Stand can be filled in. Couldn't help myself sorry 😐
Yours,
Sexual Ealing GCSE
P.s. I can't believe they haven't thought of this! Emailing the club now...
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 02:56:58 PM
That only works if we can sell an additional 3000 GA+/Premium seats... It's been said several times that take-up in the TV and LG has been poor - so that has probably spooked them.
There's a huge waiting list for proper hospitality in the Trinity, where it's about the best in the Premier League. If the Terrace View is struggling, it's because it's a crappy half-arsed botched effort, in a stand that shouldn't have it. My mate's got a GA+ thing at Arsenal, and it's very good. Nice seats, and a really decent area for before the match and half time etc. You feel like you're getting a lot more than the standard seats. The TV and LG are just short term poor efforts to try to bring a few more quid in. It's symptomatic of the short term thinking thus far from Heck. A new North if done properly would have all of this planned out in advance.
Do you see any positives in Heck at all?
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 12, 2024, 02:58:09 PM
That only works if we can sell an additional 3000 GA+/Premium seats... It's been said several times that take-up in the TV and LG has been poor - so that has probably spooked them.
There's a huge waiting list for proper hospitality in the Trinity, where it's about the best in the Premier League. If the Terrace View is struggling, it's because it's a crappy half-arsed botched effort, in a stand that shouldn't have it. My mate's got a GA+ thing at Arsenal, and it's very good. Nice seats, and a really decent area for before the match and half time etc. You feel like you're getting a lot more than the standard seats. The TV and LG are just short term poor efforts to try to bring a few more quid in. It's symptomatic of the short term thinking thus far from Heck. A new North if done properly would have all of this planned out in advance.
Do you see any positives in Heck at all?
Looks better with a beard?
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 03:00:34 PM
That only works if we can sell an additional 3000 GA+/Premium seats... It's been said several times that take-up in the TV and LG has been poor - so that has probably spooked them.
There's a huge waiting list for proper hospitality in the Trinity, where it's about the best in the Premier League. If the Terrace View is struggling, it's because it's a crappy half-arsed botched effort, in a stand that shouldn't have it. My mate's got a GA+ thing at Arsenal, and it's very good. Nice seats, and a really decent area for before the match and half time etc. You feel like you're getting a lot more than the standard seats. The TV and LG are just short term poor efforts to try to bring a few more quid in. It's symptomatic of the short term thinking thus far from Heck. A new North if done properly would have all of this planned out in advance.
Do you see any positives in Heck at all?
Not yet, no. He's like every other marketing director I've ever met, full of shite. And he very obviously doesn't understand the market he's working in, which is a problem. His communication skills are woeful, and the ability to get a message across is about the barest minimum you'd expect from somebody in his position. Tom Fox mark 2.
Post by: AV82EC on January 12, 2024, 03:06:56 PM
However that doesn’t excuse his quite frankly piss poor communication and decision making on each of those issues which has just exacerbated the sense of “what the fuck is he doing!”.
I’m less concerned about GA+ and badges/crests but am really disappointed in the North stand stuff and VP redevelopment, he could have bought himself some time for a review but his piss poor comms has meant we’re hanging in limbo for some sense of direction.
C- see me after class.
(It would have been a D but the adidas stuff got him an extra mark.)
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 03:08:08 PM
I'm not sure why you think he doesn't understand his market, other than following an article from New York Red Bulls fans 10 years ago.
Are his communication skills shite, or is it that he says things you don't want to hear?
He seems to have been clear enough that he's stopped the North. He's redevelop(ed/ing) the badge.
The gap is what's next about the stadium, that's it as far as I can see, the rest is clear. I know you/we/the fanbase want to know everything that's going on, but as with your company, you'd not tell everyone all the details. I get that it's different with football, but the main thing is that we're going well on the pitch.
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 03:11:53 PM
The only positive I can see for Heck is that he could hang a lot of the shit that’s currently going on around Purslows neck.
I’m less concerned about GA+ and badges/crests but am really disappointed in the North stand stuff and VP redevelopment, he could have bought himself some time for a review but his piss poor comms has meant we’re hanging in limbo for some sense of direction.
C- see me after class.
(It would have been a D but the adidas stuff got him an extra mark.)
Why are we 'in limbo'? I get that you want to know more, and that he could have just said he was putting it on hold subject to review or something equally as nondescript, and those few words could have made a difference, but the reality is that the words don't matter, what happens next matters far more. I just don't see the point in getting too upset at this stage.
The adidas thing is pretty bloody huge in terms of a way forward though.
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 03:12:41 PM
Ah, so he was going to fail from the beginning if every marketing director is full of shite.
I'm not sure why you think he doesn't understand his market, other than following an article from New York Red Bulls fans 10 years ago.
Are his communication skills shite, or is it that he says things you don't want to hear?
He seems to have been clear enough that he's stopped the North. He's redevelop(ed/ing) the badge.
The gap is what's next about the stadium, that's it as far as I can see, the rest is clear. I know you/we/the fanbase want to know everything that's going on, but as with your company, you'd not tell everyone all the details. I get that it's different with football, but the main thing is that we're going well on the pitch.
So you think the way he's communicated his ideas is good then? A crap tweet from his personal account for the 150 year branding, and a terrible video where he bins off the North Stand. Having two crests quite often displayed in the same room. Telling people that 10,000 new seats is "too much"? Not communicating the new badge and letting it slip out via the trademark website? Whether I want to hear stuff is neither here nor there, but the way he presents things is hugely amateurish.
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 03:34:00 PM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. Boooall due respect WTF do they know
Post by: olaftab on January 12, 2024, 03:40:49 PM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. BoooThat's the most laziest thing any media outlet can put out. However I think it's true.
Post by: Dogtanian on January 12, 2024, 03:49:24 PM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. BoooThat's the most laziest thing any media outlet can put out. However I think it's true.
Aside from the fact they said no such thing.
"It has meant that staying out of FFP trouble while providing for Emery has been a complex balancing act, exacerbated by the proposals to redevelop and expand Villa Park. While this would provide critical extra revenue in the long term, purse strings would have to be tightened in the immediacy."
"All of which proved excessive in both cost and in a competitive sense, playing in a temporary three-stand ground threatened to diminish the dominance Emery’s side have established at home. Optically, it would also appear jarring if Villa were missing a stand but playing in the Champions League — Europe’s premium club competition."
In other words, if we are playing in the CL next season and we want to strengthen our squad, we want that extra revenue and to have a full ground with a great atmosphere for matches. Exactly what everyone has been saying.
The article does mention rising costs of the expansion, but as others have said on here, that simply means the cost of the plan now outweighs the benefits and explains why Heck has said they're now reassessing what we do.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 03:54:35 PM
Post by: brontebilly on January 12, 2024, 03:55:25 PM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. Booo
It doesn't say that at all. It says what has already been put on here several times, that losing the revenue of the stand for two seasons right now when we need every penny to hit FFP targets would limit our ability to improve the squad for next season.
As for a forward plan, it talks about feasibility studies taking place for a better solution. That's exactly what people on here have been saying too.
The costs going up have also been discussed and the idea that it's an expensive investment to make when it still leaves you with problems in the rest of the ground, which is why they will be looking at alternatives.
https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/ (https://theathletic.com/4815655/2024/01/12/aston-villa-financial-fair-play/)
There's never going to be a right time to improve the North Stand.
Other worrying note in that article is the likelihood a Luiz or Kamara might have to be sold to balance the books. I'm not sure how we improve by doing that.
Well, say if we got £50m for Kamara, that would be on the accounts this year. If we then bought two £50m players on 5 year contracts, that would be amortised at £20m a year over the length of their contracts. If they were two signings that turned out to be successful, that should improve us.
If past experience is any kind of guide to future prospects, we won't get any better by selling key players like Kamara or Luiz. We were drifting aimlessly from the sale of Grealish really until Emery came in.
The rules and logic around FFP are fundamentally flawed. Selling homegrown players and buying out of contract players is incentivised. That's not in the interest of player or club development.
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 04:01:18 PM
Post by: Dogtanian on January 12, 2024, 04:04:01 PM
The Athletic are just podcasters talking out their ariss
There's a lot of that going on.
Post by: AV82EC on January 12, 2024, 04:08:03 PM
The only positive I can see for Heck is that he could hang a lot of the shit that’s currently going on around Purslows neck.
I’m less concerned about GA+ and badges/crests but am really disappointed in the North stand stuff and VP redevelopment, he could have bought himself some time for a review but his piss poor comms has meant we’re hanging in limbo for some sense of direction.
C- see me after class.
(It would have been a D but the adidas stuff got him an extra mark.)
Why are we 'in limbo'? I get that you want to know more, and that he could have just said he was putting it on hold subject to review or something equally as nondescript, and those few words could have made a difference, but the reality is that the words don't matter, what happens next matters far more. I just don't see the point in getting too upset at this stage.
The adidas thing is pretty bloody huge in terms of a way forward though.
I wasn’t trying to defend or attack the guy just answering the question further up the thread on positives for Heck. As Risso said his presentation and comms has been quite frankly shockingly bad, it doesn’t necessarily mean I disagree with what he’s doing. I still think if he’d communicated openly and honestly about his intentions he’d have more credit in the bank on all of these issues and people would have cut him more slack as the new guy trying to sort out the issues Purslow left him with.
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 04:12:59 PM
It's not about revenue during the works, as Risso said there's an allowance for stand rebuilds. So that excuse at least doesn't wash.
Though a loss of circa 8000 fans, and the spend in the shop (to be filled with new adidas clobber) would cost an intangible amount in relation to FFP.
Post by: Ads on January 12, 2024, 04:16:54 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 04:19:34 PM
Ah, so he was going to fail from the beginning if every marketing director is full of shite.
I'm not sure why you think he doesn't understand his market, other than following an article from New York Red Bulls fans 10 years ago.
Are his communication skills shite, or is it that he says things you don't want to hear?
He seems to have been clear enough that he's stopped the North. He's redevelop(ed/ing) the badge.
The gap is what's next about the stadium, that's it as far as I can see, the rest is clear. I know you/we/the fanbase want to know everything that's going on, but as with your company, you'd not tell everyone all the details. I get that it's different with football, but the main thing is that we're going well on the pitch.
So you think the way he's communicated his ideas is good then? A crap tweet from his personal account for the 150 year branding, and a terrible video where he bins off the North Stand. Having two crests quite often displayed in the same room. Telling people that 10,000 new seats is "too much"? Not communicating the new badge and letting it slip out via the trademark website? Whether I want to hear stuff is neither here nor there, but the way he presents things is hugely amateurish.
Heck explained: “We have 42,000 seats. A substantial amount. To add on 10,000 right now doesn’t seem practical to me.
“We talk about Villa Park being a fortress. It is true. I think it would be a bad idea to tear down one of the stands for two years while we are playing like we are.
“Going forward, I think everything should be about all fans and not just one particular stand.”
Heck said Villa also had worries about how the infrastructure around the stadium would cope with increased capacity. The club have been lobbying the local authorities to make improvements to Witton Station.
Heck continued: “They are extremely ambitious ideas. During the summer months I became concerned we were adding too many seats too fast.
“I believe it was important we took a step back and re-evaluate what is best for our fans.
“I mention this with the transportation and the parking situation.”
I'm not sure what the problem is with that.
Re-evaluate re transportation and parking, do things for all fans, don't go too big too fast (in light of the shit transport stuff you like to talk about).
You've long said go somewhere else because the infrastructure around the ground is shit, and let's face it, you are completely correct for all the reasons we've spoken about before. So, given that, is adding another 8-10,000 seats going to make that a whole lot worse unless transport is sorted? Of course it is. The council is bankrupt, so won't commit to any spending in that area, and the station is only part of a feasibility study. When there's commitment to doing it, in a timely manner, then perhaps we could proceed.
When you look at the complaints after Springsteen played, and the ongoing complaints from people like you and me about the traffic situation, why would you make it worse? Without changes to transport, will the club not shoot itself in the foot by expecting more people to attend?
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 04:20:58 PM
Couple of years of big Champions League dollar makes it a lot more likely that we'll have wiggle room, as sponsorship etc increases too.
Champions League, Adidas kit in shops all over the country, and yes, we'd be way better off.
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 04:21:09 PM
watch the SSN Transfer show whatever mornings its on. It's hilariously badThe Athletic are just podcasters talking out their ariss
There's a lot of that going on.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 04:26:20 PM
The Athletic are just podcasters talking out their arissThe Athletic includes some of the most credible sports journalists we have. All journalists speculate, but The Athletic are some of the best informed there is.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 12, 2024, 04:31:28 PM
The Athletic are just podcasters talking out their arissThe Athletic includes some of the most credible sports journalists we have. All journalists speculate, but The Athletic are some of the best informed there is.
Tim talking absolute rubbish yet again. Like you said, the Athletic employs some of the best sports journalists in the country. They are not some random bunch of podcasters.
Post by: IFWaters on January 12, 2024, 04:42:57 PM
I'm procrastinating. Luckily for the citizens of H&V, that means I'm thinking about things that make no material difference to my life. I know we can't do much with the Witton, but couldn't we add a tier to the North/Trinity/Holte? That wouldn't impact light into houses too much (would it?)What about an extra layer in the Witton that rises up transformers style when there's a game on. Could channel a bit of Tracy Island underground bunker kind of stuff.
Yours,
Sexual Ealing GCSE
P.s. I can't believe they haven't thought of this! Emailing the club now...
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 12, 2024, 04:44:40 PM
I'm procrastinating. Luckily for the citizens of H&V, that means I'm thinking about things that make no material difference to my life. I know we can't do much with the Witton, but couldn't we add a tier to the North/Trinity/Holte? That wouldn't impact light into houses too much (would it?)What about an extra layer in the Witton that rises up transformers style when there's a game on. Could channel a bit of Tracy Island underground bunker kind of stuff.
Yours,
Sexual Ealing GCSE
P.s. I can't believe they haven't thought of this! Emailing the club now...
I’m completely on board with all of this.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 04:46:37 PM
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 04:47:23 PM
Strong hints in Athletic the North Stand is staying due to cost cutting and definitely no bigger plan. BoooThat's the most laziest thing any media outlet can put out. However I think it's true.
Aside from the fact they said no such thing.
"It has meant that staying out of FFP trouble while providing for Emery has been a complex balancing act, exacerbated by the proposals to redevelop and expand Villa Park. While this would provide critical extra revenue in the long term, purse strings would have to be tightened in the immediacy."
"All of which proved excessive in both cost and in a competitive sense, playing in a temporary three-stand ground threatened to diminish the dominance Emery’s side have established at home. Optically, it would also appear jarring if Villa were missing a stand but playing in the Champions League — Europe’s premium club competition."
In other words, if we are playing in the CL next season and we want to strengthen our squad, we want that extra revenue and to have a full ground with a great atmosphere for matches. Exactly what everyone has been saying.
The article does mention rising costs of the expansion, but as others have said on here, that simply means the cost of the plan now outweighs the benefits and explains why Heck has said they're now reassessing what we do.
That article is quite poor, and contains no new information other than regurgitating what Heck has said. The mixing up of the cost of the stadium and money for transfers is a load of rubbish, in my opinion.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 12, 2024, 04:53:49 PM
Heck explained: “We have 42,000 seats. A substantial amount. To add on 10,000 right now doesn’t seem practical to me.This stands out.
When Arsenal moved from Highbury to the Emirates they effectively added 20,000+ seats.
More recently, when Spurs moved from White Hart Lane to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium they effectively added 20,000+ seats.
When Everton move to their new ground they'll be adding 13,000 seats.
I really don't get how adding 10,000 seats is "not practical". I thought we were supporting an ambitious club?
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 04:54:07 PM
I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 12, 2024, 04:57:46 PM
Heck explained: “We have 42,000 seats. A substantial amount. To add on 10,000 right now doesn’t seem practical to me.This stands out.
When Arsenal moved from Highbury to the Emirates they effectively added 20,000+ seats.
More recently, when Spurs moved from White Hart Lane to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium they effectively added 20,000+ seats.
When Everton move to their new ground they'll be adding 13,000 seats.
I really don't get how adding 10,000 seats is "not practical". I thought we were supporting an ambitious club?
But we are not moving grounds. I think he's saying within the same footprint and relative to the surrounding infrastructure limitations.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 04:57:57 PM
Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 05:02:34 PM
Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Ok but it is a huge part of it, and it is an explanation rather than bullshit or him saying nothing.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 12, 2024, 05:03:54 PM
Well Arsenal moved about a quarter of a mile and Spurs' new ground overlaps their old one. The matchday routines of each sets of fans either won't have changed or barely changed.Heck explained: “We have 42,000 seats. A substantial amount. To add on 10,000 right now doesn’t seem practical to me.This stands out.
When Arsenal moved from Highbury to the Emirates they effectively added 20,000+ seats.
More recently, when Spurs moved from White Hart Lane to Tottenham Hotspur Stadium they effectively added 20,000+ seats.
When Everton move to their new ground they'll be adding 13,000 seats.
I really don't get how adding 10,000 seats is "not practical". I thought we were supporting an ambitious club?
But we are not moving grounds. I think he's saying within the same footprint and relative to the surrounding infrastructure limitations.
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 05:06:17 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on January 12, 2024, 05:23:16 PM
He basically states in his interview athat adding 10,000 tickets is too much, and 42,000 is plenty.Yep. And it's nuts.
The existing 42,000 is pretty much sold out, save for an infamous 200 or so.
We have, is it 35,000 on the season ticket waiting list? Now I know not everyone on that list will buy a season ticket right this instant if offered the chance. If only a quarter of them buy a season ticket when offered the chance that's almost 9,000 to fill the, variously, eight thousand to ten thousand extra seats that the new North Stand would have provided.
Meanwhile, the corporare areas are full. Sold out. Try getting a ticket in there as a one-off. You've got no chance.
Meanwhile, the team are pulling up trees, something that will generate more interest in the club.
Now is the perfect time to go through with the North Stand rebuild. Leaving things as they are (because I simply don't believe they're going to add 2,000 - 3,000 seats with a reconfiguration) is a retrograde step, in my opinion.
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 05:24:12 PM
well they still spout a load of BS a lot of the time . Lazy stereotypical "journalism"The Athletic are just podcasters talking out their arissThe Athletic includes some of the most credible sports journalists we have. All journalists speculate, but The Athletic are some of the best informed there is.
Tim talking absolute rubbish yet again. Like you said, the Athletic employs some of the best sports journalists in the country. They are not some random bunch of podcasters.
Post by: Chris Smith on January 12, 2024, 05:25:52 PM
well they still spout a load of BS a lot of the time . Lazy stereotypical "journalism"The Athletic are just podcasters talking out their arissThe Athletic includes some of the most credible sports journalists we have. All journalists speculate, but The Athletic are some of the best informed there is.
Tim talking absolute rubbish yet again. Like you said, the Athletic employs some of the best sports journalists in the country. They are not some random bunch of podcasters.
If you don’t mind me saying that’s just lazy stereotyping.
Post by: Simon Page on January 12, 2024, 05:28:22 PM
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 12, 2024, 05:31:09 PM
Quote
What's the latest on the North Stand redevelopment?
"The North Stand [rebuild] is a massive project. When I came in it was right in front of me. There were extremely ambitious ideas and a lot of it was thoughtful.
"What I will say is this. Over the summer months I became more concerned we were adding too many seats too fast. It was important that we took a step back and re-evaluate what is best for our fans.
"I mention this with the transportation, I mention this with the parking situation. What I would also mention is that we have 42,000 plus seats. It is a substantial amount. To add on 10,000 right now doesn’t seem practical to me and I will tell you why.
"Number one, we talk about Villa Park being a fortress. It is true. There is no better home advantage than at Villa Park and I think it would be a bad idea to tear down one of the stands for a two year period while we are playing like we are. I think that going forward, everything should be about all fans and not just one particular stand."
What plans will go ahead this summer?
"We are going to start renovating the Warehouse area. That is a massive space that we think can be a hospitality zone and an entertainment zone for 3,000 fans. Not only pre-game and post-game, but also for concerts and other shows that we have at Villa Park.
"We are going to do a lot of renovation at Bodymoor Heath to continue building our academy, our womens programme, to build more for our first-team and be more attractive to bring in talent around the world.
"Those components are really important. There is another one. We will enhance out technology and some of the practical facilities at Villa Park in all four stands. Don’t be surprised if you see our superstore double in size this summer as we are going to be very, very active with merchandising."
I think he wants to look at the entire ground versus just one stand. I don't think he is so naive to think that extra fans in the ground doesn't make sense but more how does it fit in as a total plan and not just one stand.
Post by: Chris Smith on January 12, 2024, 05:35:07 PM
Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Transport falls under the West Midlands Mayor’s remit rather than the council. They’ve committed to upgrading Witton station but that isn’t going to happen overnight, they’re working towards the Euro ‘28 timetable. The area is just about coping with current numbers and we can’t increase capacity without significant improvements.
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 05:36:17 PM
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 05:37:39 PM
Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Transport falls under the West Midlands Mayor’s remit rather than the council. They’ve committed to upgrading Witton station but that isn’t going to happen overnight, they’re working towards the Euro ‘28 timetable. The area is just about coping with current numbers and we can’t increase capacity without significant improvements.
Absolutely, and correct me if I@m wrong, but buses and parking are the council? And the council would have some sway with the mayor too.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 12, 2024, 05:48:50 PM
I'm really not sure. If they thought the station wasn't going to get done and that was the key point they'd say so.Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Ok but it is a huge part of it, and it is an explanation rather than bullshit or him saying nothing.
10k too fast too soon, concentrate on current fans etc all says to me that they've got cold feet. But we're debating something which we're not likely to get an answer to for another 12-24 months or so, so I guess we'll all have to wait and see.
Post by: Chris Smith on January 12, 2024, 05:50:22 PM
Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Transport falls under the West Midlands Mayor’s remit rather than the council. They’ve committed to upgrading Witton station but that isn’t going to happen overnight, they’re working towards the Euro ‘28 timetable. The area is just about coping with current numbers and we can’t increase capacity without significant improvements.
Absolutely, and correct me if I@m wrong, but buses and parking are the council? And the council would have some sway with the mayor too.
It’s not straightforward but as I understand it National Express run the buses, West Midlands Rail the trains but the West Midlands Combined Authority has an overarching strategic role.
Post by: eamonn on January 12, 2024, 05:55:11 PM
Post by: Gareth on January 12, 2024, 05:56:04 PM
Post by: N'ZMAV on January 12, 2024, 06:02:22 PM
so it'll be a piss-up in a brewery for a skint council to decide on?Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Transport falls under the West Midlands Mayor’s remit rather than the council. They’ve committed to upgrading Witton station but that isn’t going to happen overnight, they’re working towards the Euro ‘28 timetable. The area is just about coping with current numbers and we can’t increase capacity without significant improvements.
Absolutely, and correct me if I@m wrong, but buses and parking are the council? And the council would have some sway with the mayor too.
It’s not straightforward but as I understand it National Express run the buses, West Midlands Rail the trains but the West Midlands Combined Authority has an overarching strategic role.
Post by: Chris Smith on January 12, 2024, 06:05:21 PM
so it'll be a piss-up in a brewery for a skint council to decide on?Because in your summary paragraphs you implied it was all about the transport links, which I don't think it is. If it was, I think he would have said exactly that to put pressure on the Council.I think you're reaching a bit there Drummond. If it was all about the transport he'd have said that - then it would be a game of playing chicken with the Council.
It sounds to me like he's throwing out excuses because ultimately they just don't want to commit the money right now. I know some think that's because of even bigger plans. I remain sceptical and of the view it's about his lack of confidence about underlying demand and selling enough premium tickets to get a return.
Hang on, how am I reaching when that's what he said? I'd suggest you're taking a pessimistic view based on previous let downs.
Transport falls under the West Midlands Mayor’s remit rather than the council. They’ve committed to upgrading Witton station but that isn’t going to happen overnight, they’re working towards the Euro ‘28 timetable. The area is just about coping with current numbers and we can’t increase capacity without significant improvements.
Absolutely, and correct me if I@m wrong, but buses and parking are the council? And the council would have some sway with the mayor too.
It’s not straightforward but as I understand it National Express run the buses, West Midlands Rail the trains but the West Midlands Combined Authority has an overarching strategic role.
The first bit is probably true but it’s Birmingham Council that is bankrupt rather than the Combined Authority.
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 07:07:47 PM
So in terms of FFP are the allowances against the build costs in the accounts or would the allowances also cater for the loss of current revenue for the current North Stand seats, hospitality, catering etc?This type of Capex sits outside FFP
Post by: Risso on January 12, 2024, 07:40:12 PM
I think he wants to look at the entire ground versus just one stand. I don't think he is so naive to think that extra fans in the ground doesn't make sense but more how does it fit in as a total plan and not just one stand.
But we've got one stand that's massively overdue for an overhaul, that's too small with appalling facilities. When that's done, the Witton is next, and that needs doing as well. The alternative is that nobody gets anything much better than they have now, for the next ten years, and in that time we're really going to fall massively behind on revenue from the ground compared to half the Premier League.
When we're still having FFP worries in three years, think then that we could be playing in front of 50,000 fans, and we could have plans to get to 60,000. Instead we'll have done nothing.
Post by: Gareth on January 12, 2024, 07:55:46 PM
So in terms of FFP are the allowances against the build costs in the accounts or would the allowances also cater for the loss of current revenue for the current North Stand seats, hospitality, catering etc?This type of Capex sits outside FFP
That’s the build costs not the lost revenues
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 08:00:22 PM
I believe the lost revenues would negatively impact the FFP figuresSo in terms of FFP are the allowances against the build costs in the accounts or would the allowances also cater for the loss of current revenue for the current North Stand seats, hospitality, catering etc?This type of Capex sits outside FFP
That’s the build costs not the lost revenues
Post by: Gareth on January 12, 2024, 08:22:19 PM
I believe the lost revenues would negatively impact the FFP figuresSo in terms of FFP are the allowances against the build costs in the accounts or would the allowances also cater for the loss of current revenue for the current North Stand seats, hospitality, catering etc?This type of Capex sits outside FFP
That’s the build costs not the lost revenues
No idea how much that would be, particularly hospitality
Post by: VillaTim on January 12, 2024, 08:30:16 PM
hospitality in the North is negligible , its just that Gas Lamp lounge isn't it ? Maybe that restaurant in the corner ?I believe the lost revenues would negatively impact the FFP figuresSo in terms of FFP are the allowances against the build costs in the accounts or would the allowances also cater for the loss of current revenue for the current North Stand seats, hospitality, catering etc?This type of Capex sits outside FFP
That’s the build costs not the lost revenues
No idea how much that would be, particularly hospitality
Post by: Drummond on January 12, 2024, 08:33:07 PM
I think he wants to look at the entire ground versus just one stand. I don't think he is so naive to think that extra fans in the ground doesn't make sense but more how does it fit in as a total plan and not just one stand.
But we've got one stand that's massively overdue for an overhaul, that's too small with appalling facilities. When that's done, the Witton is next, and that needs doing as well. The alternative is that nobody gets anything much better than they have now, for the next ten years, and in that time we're really going to fall massively behind on revenue from the ground compared to half the Premier League.
When we're still having FFP worries in three years, think then that we could be playing in front of 50,000 fans, and we could have plans to get to 60,000. Instead we'll have done nothing.
It's not cancelled though, it's under review.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 12, 2024, 10:11:54 PM
It's not about revenue during the works, as Risso said there's an allowance for stand rebuilds. So that excuse at least doesn't wash.
The cost of the actual rebuilding counts as infrastructure, and doesn’t count against FFP. The loss of revenue from having a reduced capacity does.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 12, 2024, 10:45:38 PM
It's not about revenue during the works, as Risso said there's an allowance for stand rebuilds. So that excuse at least doesn't wash.
The cost of the actual rebuilding counts as infrastructure, and doesn’t count against FFP. The loss of revenue from having a reduced capacity does.
Also don’t forget, it Is actual money which has to come from somewhere
Post by: andyh on January 12, 2024, 10:59:56 PM
Post by: eamonn on January 12, 2024, 11:06:36 PM
Post by: Bad English on January 13, 2024, 08:22:24 AM
Post by: Ads on January 13, 2024, 09:21:11 AM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 13, 2024, 09:32:54 AM
General Admission and General Admission plus, the later being short hand for the no man's land between proper corporate and normal tickets like Terrace View and Lower Grounds.
I’d also include irregular attendees that are likely to leave the club shop with a couple of plastic bags full of merchandise under the GA+ umbrella.
Post by: VillaTim on January 13, 2024, 11:20:09 AM
Isn’t this whole thread moot now ?on pause until Heck speaks on the subject again
Post by: DB on January 13, 2024, 11:42:20 AM
CL potential next season, Heck doesn't want a building site shown to millions
FFP and loss of match day revenue of around 8k seats and corporate
Heck doesn't believe we will fill the new stand/capacity
...or all the above?
Is he therefore, playing the longer game? Get in the CL, increase turnover from that, then have the FFP wiggle room to build the new stand with a reduced capacity for a season or 2. In the meantime, fleece the fans for as much as he can?
Post by: Risso on January 13, 2024, 11:44:33 AM
Post by: The Edge on January 13, 2024, 11:47:58 AM
Reduced revenue because of rebuilding part or all of a stadium is an allowable exceptional event for FFP purposes, if the shortfall is covered by equity from the owners.All the more reason to just get on with it.
Post by: VillaTim on January 13, 2024, 11:48:52 AM
or not if the bigger plan is a new groundReduced revenue because of rebuilding part or all of a stadium is an allowable exceptional event for FFP purposes, if the shortfall is covered by equity from the owners.All the more reason to just get on with it.
Post by: DB on January 13, 2024, 11:50:56 AM
Reduced revenue because of rebuilding part or all of a stadium is an allowable exceptional event for FFP purposes, if the shortfall is covered by equity from the owners.
Is that both Prem and UEFA rules? Or is there no difference?
Post by: Bad English on January 13, 2024, 05:41:41 PM
General Admission and General Admission plus, the later being short hand for the no man's land between proper corporate and normal tickets like Terrace View and Lower Grounds.I see. Ta!
Post by: Drummond on January 13, 2024, 07:32:06 PM
Post by: Risso on January 13, 2024, 09:00:22 PM
Maybe we're being prudent. Look at Newcastle, languishing in 10th and they definitely won't be in the Champions League next season. Perhaps Emery wants a full ground for the first time we will have qualified since 1982, to maximise our chances.
I'm absolutely certain this decision has nothing to do with Emery. You don't pull a multi-million pound development because of a competition you haven't even qualified for yet.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 13, 2024, 10:07:16 PM
Post by: The Man With A Stick on January 13, 2024, 10:11:46 PM
I wonder if the suggestion that Blose are looking at new a new location and building a multipurpose Stadium has anything to do with our situation.
When they say "multipurpose" they're probably on about car boot sales and cock-fighting in the car park. Bescot on steroids.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 13, 2024, 10:13:27 PM
You forgot burning the plastic of nicked copper cables :)I wonder if the suggestion that Blose are looking at new a new location and building a multipurpose Stadium has anything to do with our situation.
When they say "multipurpose" they're probably on about car boot sales and cock-fighting in the car park. Bescot on steroids.
Post by: Beard82 on January 13, 2024, 10:24:45 PM
I don't think its Emery has had any input into, but I think us having him may have impacted it.Maybe we're being prudent. Look at Newcastle, languishing in 10th and they definitely won't be in the Champions League next season. Perhaps Emery wants a full ground for the first time we will have qualified since 1982, to maximise our chances.
I'm absolutely certain this decision has nothing to do with Emery. You don't pull a multi-million pound development because of a competition you haven't even qualified for yet.
- I think Heck wants to do this his way, I think that is just what these kind of people are like. I think if Purslow had said we're not expanding the stadium, then Heck would have decided now was the time to do it
- I think Heck sees the revenue growth as higher spend per seat, rather than more people - and maybe the lower attendances for the Conference League helped to sway that
- I think they think we have Emery here for however long, and he's super charging our development on the pitch and the world is looking at us - so is it the time to mess with Villa park. Also our home record is the best in the league - so is it worth the risk
- Basically, I think its a mixture of Heck ego, and the club thinking our bet is to make the most of Emery and hope in 2 or 3 years time we're established as an elite club and go from there
Not saying any of thats right. But i can understand the logic
Post by: VillaTim on January 13, 2024, 11:15:11 PM
Post by: algy on January 14, 2024, 08:42:16 AM
https://archive.ph/vqGVG
Interview with Chris Heck in The Times.
Post by: Ads on January 14, 2024, 08:58:14 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 14, 2024, 09:15:58 AM
This doesn't offer a huge amount new, but might be of interest:
https://archive.ph/vqGVG
Interview with Chris Heck in The Times.
higgledy piggldy stadium? cheeky bastard , how many semi finals Stamford bridge have ?
Post by: Chris Harte on January 14, 2024, 09:40:23 AM
That's not the excuse I took away from the interview on the club website.
Post by: Axl Rose on January 14, 2024, 09:41:02 AM
This doesn't offer a huge amount new, but might be of interest:
https://archive.ph/vqGVG
Interview with Chris Heck in The Times.
higgledy piggldy stadium? cheeky bastard , how many semi finals Stamford bridge have ?
Interviewer is a ******
Post by: Chris Harte on January 14, 2024, 09:44:23 AM
Well then don't put the prices up, don't create GA+ facilities that take away previously available facilities for the regular fans and try to be more transparent than you have been to date.
There! Not that difficult, really.
Post by: LeeB on January 14, 2024, 09:49:33 AM
This doesn't offer a huge amount new, but might be of interest:
https://archive.ph/vqGVG
Interview with Chris Heck in The Times.
higgledy piggldy stadium? cheeky bastard , how many semi finals Stamford bridge have ?
Interviewer is a ******
Yeah, we need to make money like his beloved Chelsea so we don't become a hopeless pile of mid table shite like his er, beloved Chelsea.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 14, 2024, 10:15:56 AM
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Post by: VillaTim on January 14, 2024, 10:22:44 AM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.would suggest town centre / NEC or a retail Park somewhere - (think Star City / The Fort etc)
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 14, 2024, 10:28:01 AM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.Yes, the mention of car parking is a bit of a giveaway.
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Post by: Paul.S on January 14, 2024, 11:07:16 AM
This doesn't offer a huge amount new, but might be of interest:
https://archive.ph/vqGVG
Interview with Chris Heck in The Times.
higgledy piggldy stadium? cheeky bastard , how many semi finals Stamford bridge have ?
Interviewer is a ******
You will never convince most of today’s journalists that anything is worth some real insight outside of their favourite few. The fact Chelsea and Abu Dhabi are manufactured clubs goes over their heads. Another shoddy piece that comes across as something someone was told to do and didn’t really want to.
Post by: eamonn on January 14, 2024, 11:24:46 AM
Quote
He says that Villa, in the midst of a purple patch on the pitch, is filming its season behind the scenes in the hope of selling it on as a documentary series.
Finally! I've wanted an "All Or Nothing"/"Sunderland Til I Die" series on the Villa since Xia's car-crash reign. Interesting that we are making it as we go along and hoping that Netflix or whoever pick it up, rather than it being produced by them in the first place. A second half of the season similar to the first will surely have the streaming platforms come calling. Anyone know how much other clubs have been paid for similar series?
Post by: Beard82 on January 14, 2024, 12:33:04 PM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.Isn’t that in relation to the warehouse thing? He wants to build that first
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Post by: paul_e on January 14, 2024, 12:47:35 PM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.Isn’t that in relation to the warehouse thing? He wants to build that first
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Across all the comments the thing that stands out for me is that everything he says about making sure we maximise the revenue for what we have before adding more seats. Some people will see it as cynical, and that's fair, but things like getting people to buy food at the ground instead of a chip shop on the way to/from it or to arrange to meet friends at the warehouse instead of a pub for a couple of pre-match beers. None of that is wanting supporters to spend more money overall but it is wanting to grab a bigger share of what they spend already.
Personally I'm really intrigued by what they're going to do with the GA+ stuff they already have to make it more appealing. I said before that, for me, the lower grounds in concept isn't terrible, get the food and drink offerings right and I can see it being successful in the longer-term, but right now the offering isn't high enough quality to justify it, I'm sure the club are aware of those criticisms. I have bigger issues with the terrace view, which I don't think will last all that long.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 14, 2024, 12:53:12 PM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.Isn’t that in relation to the warehouse thing? He wants to build that first
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Across all the comments the thing that stands out for me is that everything he says about making sure we maximise the revenue for what we have before adding more seats. Some people will see it as cynical, and that's fair, but things like getting people to buy food at the ground instead of a chip shop on the way to/from it or to arrange to meet friends at the warehouse instead of a pub for a couple of pre-match beers. None of that is wanting supporters to spend more money overall but it is wanting to grab a bigger share of what they spend already.
Personally I'm really intrigued by what they're going to do with the GA+ stuff they already have to make it more appealing. I said before that, for me, the lower grounds in concept isn't terrible, get the food and drink offerings right and I can see it being successful in the longer-term, but right now the offering isn't high enough quality to justify it, I'm sure the club are aware of those criticisms. I have bigger issues with the terrace view, which I don't think will last all that long.
And yet from what they're saying, Terrace View is doing the better of the two.
Post by: luke95 on January 14, 2024, 01:41:30 PM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.would suggest town centre / NEC or a retail Park somewhere - (think Star City / The Fort etc)
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
I just can't see us moving to the city centre , it would be just too expensive.
Unless God forbid a ground share with that lot.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 14, 2024, 01:57:54 PM
While I've previously said you'd have to be barmy to think the club are moving, I happen to know there is a housing estate near to central Brum that the council, according to concerned locals, want to tear down and replace with posh appartments and the like.
Now, I don't know how well founded these fears are, but if the council now find themselves bankrupt then maybe they'd be open to an offer from a sporting institution for the land. Flattening the whole estate, which the last time I looked had a fair amount of greenery, would provide an area with a circular footprint with a radius of at least 190 metres (I checked on Google Earth, of course) which is comparable to Wembley stadium.
The location would be close to Five Ways station, close to Broad Street and about a ten minute walk from town.
And having written this, I really hope the club aren't planning to move there.
Post by: KRS on January 14, 2024, 05:13:00 PM
Villa Park is our home and you feel that everytime you approach the ground and climb the steps to take your seat looking down on the pitch, so I’ve previously been against moving to a new build…however I’m coming around to the thinking that would be the best long term solution. With that being said, I don’t think they intend to relocate us anyway so we’re very much standing still when we should be playing catch up.
Post by: VillaTim on January 14, 2024, 05:22:40 PM
Post by: DB on January 14, 2024, 05:48:44 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 14, 2024, 05:57:37 PM
There is one thought I've had.
While I've previously said you'd have to be barmy to think the club are moving, I happen to know there is a housing estate near to central Brum that the council, according to concerned locals, want to tear down and replace with posh appartments and the like.
Now, I don't know how well founded these fears are, but if the council now find themselves bankrupt then maybe they'd be open to an offer from a sporting institution for the land. Flattening the whole estate, which the last time I looked had a fair amount of greenery, would provide an area with a circular footprint with a radius of at least 190 metres (I checked on Google Earth, of course) which is comparable to Wembley stadium.
The location would be close to Five Ways station, close to Broad Street and about a ten minute walk from town.
And having written this, I really hope the club aren't planning to move there.
If you mean Ladywood or Lea Bank, the traffic round there is horrendous at the best of times and motorway access is non-existent
Post by: Chris Harte on January 14, 2024, 06:32:53 PM
Yes. And this pleases me immensely.There is one thought I've had.
While I've previously said you'd have to be barmy to think the club are moving, I happen to know there is a housing estate near to central Brum that the council, according to concerned locals, want to tear down and replace with posh appartments and the like.
Now, I don't know how well founded these fears are, but if the council now find themselves bankrupt then maybe they'd be open to an offer from a sporting institution for the land. Flattening the whole estate, which the last time I looked had a fair amount of greenery, would provide an area with a circular footprint with a radius of at least 190 metres (I checked on Google Earth, of course) which is comparable to Wembley stadium.
The location would be close to Five Ways station, close to Broad Street and about a ten minute walk from town.
And having written this, I really hope the club aren't planning to move there.
If you mean Ladywood or Lea Bank, the traffic round there is horrendous at the best of times and motorway access is non-existent
Post by: KRS on January 14, 2024, 06:44:55 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 14, 2024, 06:57:25 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on January 14, 2024, 07:27:38 PM
Ladywood Middleway, Icknield Street and pretty much all roads around that area are an absolute no go zone especially during rush hour. Ever made the mistake of parking in one of the car parks near the Utilita and being stuck trying to get out of just the car park for at least an hour? The ring road is an absolute cluster fuck in Birmingham and isn’t going to get any better any time soon…and adding a 60k capacity stadium in to the mix would cause gridlock. I don’t think an inner city stadium is feasible without major road and traffic infrastructure change in Birmingham, and that just isn’t going to happen.It's a fair point about the roads, although my impression is that there are no longer any urban locations that aren't a no go zone. The lack of motorway access as well. If a motorway is a requirement then that limits it to around the A38(M) .
The Utilita? Is that the current name for the Indoor Arena? I thought it was still called The Barclaycard, haha.
Post by: SaddVillan on January 14, 2024, 08:44:31 PM
Then we could have built a new ground whilst still playing at Villa Park, and remained close to our roots.
Post by: KRS on January 14, 2024, 09:10:02 PM
Yeah I would pretty much rule out locations within the ring road simply because they aren’t realistic or logistically viable.Ladywood Middleway, Icknield Street and pretty much all roads around that area are an absolute no go zone especially during rush hour. Ever made the mistake of parking in one of the car parks near the Utilita and being stuck trying to get out of just the car park for at least an hour? The ring road is an absolute cluster fuck in Birmingham and isn’t going to get any better any time soon…and adding a 60k capacity stadium in to the mix would cause gridlock. I don’t think an inner city stadium is feasible without major road and traffic infrastructure change in Birmingham, and that just isn’t going to happen.It's a fair point about the roads, although my impression is that there are no longer any urban locations that aren't a no go zone. The lack of motorway access as well. If a motorway is a requirement then that limits it to around the A38(M) .
The Utilita? Is that the current name for the Indoor Arena? I thought it was still called The Barclaycard, haha.
The Utilita Arena is the NIA. As it happens, I’m currently staying at my friends apartment right on the canal pretty much next door to it, and traffic around here (and pretty much the whole ring road) is a nightmare especially around rush hour (basically avoid from 3-6pm).
Post by: VillaTim on January 14, 2024, 09:24:40 PM
Post by: The Edge on January 14, 2024, 10:32:33 PM
In terms of relocating,had we had the vision, ambition and money a few years back we could/should have bought the old IMI site on the other side of Witton Road - think it's now a collection of warehouses/logistics depots.The Serpentine would have been the perfect location but I think Doug sold that off for a handful of beans.
Then we could have built a new ground whilst still playing at Villa Park, and remained close to our roots.
Post by: VillaTim on January 14, 2024, 10:43:00 PM
Remember when the Asda was on there , seems like another lifetime agoIn terms of relocating,had we had the vision, ambition and money a few years back we could/should have bought the old IMI site on the other side of Witton Road - think it's now a collection of warehouses/logistics depots.The Serpentine would have been the perfect location but I think Doug sold that off for a handful of beans.
Then we could have built a new ground whilst still playing at Villa Park, and remained close to our roots.
Post by: Ads on January 14, 2024, 11:26:42 PM
Looking at the American NFL model, most teams rent their stadiums so I would think this might be the model the owners are looking at rather than spending the money themselves . (If we are going down the new stadium route).
That's because of franchising. Even the New York Jets, a team everybody has heard of even if they don't know out about NFL, don't play in the state of New York. Metlife Stadium being in the Meadowlands for Sopranos fans out there.
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 12:40:45 AM
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 09:17:39 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 15, 2024, 09:26:50 AM
Is this your new Dan Bardell?General Admission and General Admission plus, the later being short hand for the no man's land between proper corporate and normal tickets like Terrace View and Lower Grounds.I see. Ta!
Post by: chrisw1 on January 15, 2024, 09:33:44 AM
Probbaly because the numbers were boosted by it being a short cut to a season ticket.“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.Isn’t that in relation to the warehouse thing? He wants to build that first
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
Across all the comments the thing that stands out for me is that everything he says about making sure we maximise the revenue for what we have before adding more seats. Some people will see it as cynical, and that's fair, but things like getting people to buy food at the ground instead of a chip shop on the way to/from it or to arrange to meet friends at the warehouse instead of a pub for a couple of pre-match beers. None of that is wanting supporters to spend more money overall but it is wanting to grab a bigger share of what they spend already.
Personally I'm really intrigued by what they're going to do with the GA+ stuff they already have to make it more appealing. I said before that, for me, the lower grounds in concept isn't terrible, get the food and drink offerings right and I can see it being successful in the longer-term, but right now the offering isn't high enough quality to justify it, I'm sure the club are aware of those criticisms. I have bigger issues with the terrace view, which I don't think will last all that long.
And yet from what they're saying, Terrace View is doing the better of the two.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 15, 2024, 09:34:40 AM
I was thinking more if we did build a new £1-2Bn stadium, the club probably won't want that debt round their neck and may look at a lease arrangement with one of the big US stadium owner/operators
And how is any stadium operator going to spend that much on a venue and make a profit?
Post by: London Villan on January 15, 2024, 09:46:47 AM
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 09:49:59 AM
they'll know , it's their field of expertise. But it would probably be a multi use venue and not just for AVFCI was thinking more if we did build a new £1-2Bn stadium, the club probably won't want that debt round their neck and may look at a lease arrangement with one of the big US stadium owner/operators
And how is any stadium operator going to spend that much on a venue and make a profit?
Post by: PeterWithe on January 15, 2024, 10:11:01 AM
I was thinking more if we did build a new £1-2Bn stadium, the club probably won't want that debt round their neck and may look at a lease arrangement with one of the big US stadium owner/operators
And how is any stadium operator going to spend that much on a venue and make a profit?
Well it must be possible given that our new investors do just that in the US, conferences, concerts, sport, retail.
Post by: Ads on January 15, 2024, 10:21:55 AM
Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Post by: London Villan on January 15, 2024, 10:54:09 AM
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 10:56:29 AM
Post by: TonyD on January 15, 2024, 11:00:33 AM
They will sell lots of hot dogs and beers.I was thinking more if we did build a new £1-2Bn stadium, the club probably won't want that debt round their neck and may look at a lease arrangement with one of the big US stadium owner/operators
And how is any stadium operator going to spend that much on a venue and make a profit?
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 11:01:07 AM
Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
It's the New York metropolitan area though. No different really from Manchester United playing in Trafford, or Grimsby play in Cleethorpes. It's nothing like the Oakland/LA Raiders moving to Las Vegas.
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 11:03:57 AM
Post by: Smithy on January 15, 2024, 11:14:04 AM
We can compete on the pitch with a slightly smaller stadium (as we're showing), but we shouldn't have to.
However, I also think having a bigger stadium, one that allows say, 10k more fans in each game, has a bigger, longer-term advantage. I read an interview a few years ago with the former CEO of Uber, a dodgy bloke all around, but he said something interesting about the service, in that in the early days, they knew if they could get someone to use the service twice, they had a user for life. That's all it took to get them hooked. A trip to Villa Park is similar. We shouldn't underestimate the impact a trip to VP has on creating lifelong supporters. I remember my first visit about as clearly as any game I've ever attended. I'm sure that's true with plenty of others on here. And with a capacity of 42k-ish, our ability to give that first experience to a new generation of lifelong fans is a bit limited.
I'm not saying we should be actively soliciting day-trippers at the expense of season-ticket holders and regular match-goers, but I know that if we had a bigger stadium, we'd have more first time visitors at each game, and we'd be creating new lifelong fans at a rate of potentially thousand a week. And then, even if they don't go to games regularly, they will buy merchandise and invest their time in the club that generates revenue in other ways, helping close the commercial gap away from the stadium.
It's a bit cynical, but I think having a larger stadium is about more than just "gate receipts".
Post by: chrisw1 on January 15, 2024, 11:19:15 AM
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 11:24:13 AM
Post by: Drummond on January 15, 2024, 11:37:44 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
The only way to do that is by being successful and therefore recognised as a big club.
Newcastle have a captive audience and, like Leeds, a one club city. Both of them will have their fare share of glory hunters in their midst. We've not done anything (unlike those two) in terms of qualifying for the Champions League or pressing for it, for 15 years. Now is our time.
Post by: Smithy on January 15, 2024, 11:39:58 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 11:42:37 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
Another thing is it's probably much easier for folk from those parts and towns even closer to London to go to a match up here, probably true as far down as Luton.
Post by: AV82EC on January 15, 2024, 11:44:28 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
In a ring from VP Crewe, Stoke, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Northants, MK, Banbury, Cheltenham, Gloucester, Shrewsbury. There’s probably a few I’ve missed. That’ll include about an hour on the train as well, we don’t all increase pollution and congestion in Brum by driving <winky thing>.
Post by: Smithy on January 15, 2024, 11:50:02 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
On the hoovering up fans in the surrounding area thing. When I was at Uni, I did a placement year, and wrote to Villa to see if they'd take me on for a year to work in their Marketing team. This would have been early '96, so we had quite a good side back then. It was also the VERY early days of the Internet. In my application I pitched the idea of 30-second ads in provincial cinemas as a cheap way to reach new fans. I'd worked in my own town's cinema during my GCSEs and A Levels, and I'd seen the crappy ads for local restaurants and the like, and how cheap it could be, so I knew if we could create a compelling 30-second video, it would definitely work and we could drive potential new fans to check out our new 'website'. I never heard back from anyone...
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 15, 2024, 11:53:18 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
Another thing is it's probably much easier for folk from those parts and towns even closer to London to go to a match up here, probably true as far down as Luton.
We come up for home games on the train and, apart from absolutely loads of Villa getting on at London, there’s also a fair stream of Villa fans getting on the train at some stations I’ve never heard of. There’s a crawler of a train from Marylebone that must stop at 20 stations and you can guarantee that Villa fans will be at every one of them. I’m always impressed at how widespread our support is.
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 11:56:46 AM
Post by: aev on January 15, 2024, 11:59:59 AM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
Another thing is it's probably much easier for folk from those parts and towns even closer to London to go to a match up here, probably true as far down as Luton.
We come up for home games on the train and, apart from absolutely loads of Villa getting on at London, there’s also a fair stream of Villa fans getting on the train at some stations I’ve never heard of. There’s a crawler of a train from Marylebone that must stop at 20 stations and you can guarantee that Villa fans will be at every one of them. I’m always impressed at how widespread our support is.
How long does the journey take on the train to and from south of the river?
Post by: Nev on January 15, 2024, 12:03:15 PM
I think we did that crawler train down for the semi in 2000, took about 6 hours but was dirt cheap.
Used to be referred to as the "Milk Train", I can guess it was something to do with multiple deliveries or some such. By the time you get to Long Buckby, wherever the fuck that is, you need another shave.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 15, 2024, 12:05:38 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on January 15, 2024, 12:06:07 PM
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 12:08:23 PM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
On the hoovering up fans in the surrounding area thing. When I was at Uni, I did a placement year, and wrote to Villa to see if they'd take me on for a year to work in their Marketing team. This would have been early '96, so we had quite a good side back then. It was also the VERY early days of the Internet. In my application I pitched the idea of 30-second ads in provincial cinemas as a cheap way to reach new fans. I'd worked in my own town's cinema during my GCSEs and A Levels, and I'd seen the crappy ads for local restaurants and the like, and how cheap it could be, so I knew if we could create a compelling 30-second video, it would definitely work and we could drive potential new fans to check out our new 'website'. I never heard back from anyone...
So instead you started up a satirical website. Well nobody's laughing now! (With apologies to Bob Monkhouse)
Post by: Bad English on January 15, 2024, 12:08:53 PM
No, absolutely not. I had no idea.Is this your new Dan Bardell?General Admission and General Admission plus, the later being short hand for the no man's land between proper corporate and normal tickets like Terrace View and Lower Grounds.I see. Ta!
Who is Dan Bardell?
Post by: aev on January 15, 2024, 12:11:36 PM
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Sorry, I meant more the other end. Always seems a bit of a faff.
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 12:12:23 PM
I think we did that crawler train down for the semi in 2000, took about 6 hours but was dirt cheap.
Used to be referred to as the "Milk Train", I can guess it was something to do with multiple deliveries or some such. By the time you get to Long Buckby, wherever the fuck that is, you need another shave.
Little village between Northampton and Daventry. Great place to get the train into London from, as it's very quiet but has a massive car park.
When I got the train from Kettering to London for the Derby play off, it was absolutely rammed with Villa fans, standing room only. Considering the train actually had Derby as a calling point, we outnumbered them about 5 to 1.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 15, 2024, 12:13:19 PM
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Sorry, I meant more the other end. Always seems a bit of a faff.
Back to SE London, you mean?
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 12:13:54 PM
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Crazy that, I can be in central London door-to-door in about an hour and 10 minutes.
Post by: aev on January 15, 2024, 12:16:57 PM
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Sorry, I meant more the other end. Always seems a bit of a faff.
Back to SE London, you mean?
pm'd
Post by: brontebilly on January 15, 2024, 12:20:29 PM
If that is the case, local authorities in my experience don't particularly react well to being strong armed. They would love for Villa to spend the money first and no doubt take a whack load of levies at the same time.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 15, 2024, 12:23:54 PM
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Sorry, I meant more the other end. Always seems a bit of a faff.
Back to SE London, you mean?
pm'd
Replied - hope it makes sense?
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 15, 2024, 12:25:54 PM
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Crazy that, I can be in central London door-to-door in about an hour and 10 minutes.
Depends which train you take. The one from Marylebone can take 2.5 hours, the Avanti trains from Euston an hour less but cost a lot more. 20 mins from our South East London paradise to Euston or Marylebone.
Crazy that, I can be in central London door-to-door in about an hour and 10 minutes.
11 minutes for me to London Bridge….
Post by: Smithy on January 15, 2024, 12:29:56 PM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
On the hoovering up fans in the surrounding area thing. When I was at Uni, I did a placement year, and wrote to Villa to see if they'd take me on for a year to work in their Marketing team. This would have been early '96, so we had quite a good side back then. It was also the VERY early days of the Internet. In my application I pitched the idea of 30-second ads in provincial cinemas as a cheap way to reach new fans. I'd worked in my own town's cinema during my GCSEs and A Levels, and I'd seen the crappy ads for local restaurants and the like, and how cheap it could be, so I knew if we could create a compelling 30-second video, it would definitely work and we could drive potential new fans to check out our new 'website'. I never heard back from anyone...
So instead you started up a satirical website. Well nobody's laughing now! (With apologies to Bob Monkhouse)
Oh, that came MUCH later :-) First I joined an big IT company and worked as a gopher on a bid for a massive PFI IT project for the Post Office. I wonder whatever became of that...
Post by: olaftab on January 15, 2024, 12:31:10 PM
There is one thought I've had.Chris, are you talking about the area in between St. Vincent Street/Gilby road/Browning street? If so it will take heaven and earth to move out the residents, and why should they? There are now living in prime land and if they did agree to move it will be expensive for the council or another body.
While I've previously said you'd have to be barmy to think the club are moving, I happen to know there is a housing estate near to central Brum that the council, according to concerned locals, want to tear down and replace with posh appartments and the like.
Now, I don't know how well founded these fears are, but if the council now find themselves bankrupt then maybe they'd be open to an offer from a sporting institution for the land. Flattening the whole estate, which the last time I looked had a fair amount of greenery, would provide an area with a circular footprint with a radius of at least 190 metres (I checked on Google Earth, of course) which is comparable to Wembley stadium.
The location would be close to Five Ways station, close to Broad Street and about a ten minute walk from town.
And having written this, I really hope the club aren't planning to move there.
Post by: dorsetvillian on January 15, 2024, 12:34:40 PM
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 12:47:34 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 12:47:52 PM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
On the hoovering up fans in the surrounding area thing. When I was at Uni, I did a placement year, and wrote to Villa to see if they'd take me on for a year to work in their Marketing team. This would have been early '96, so we had quite a good side back then. It was also the VERY early days of the Internet. In my application I pitched the idea of 30-second ads in provincial cinemas as a cheap way to reach new fans. I'd worked in my own town's cinema during my GCSEs and A Levels, and I'd seen the crappy ads for local restaurants and the like, and how cheap it could be, so I knew if we could create a compelling 30-second video, it would definitely work and we could drive potential new fans to check out our new 'website'. I never heard back from anyone...
So instead you started up a satirical website. Well nobody's laughing now! (With apologies to Bob Monkhouse)
Oh, that came MUCH later :-) First I joined an big IT company and worked as a gopher on a bid for a massive PFI IT project for the Post Office. I wonder whatever became of that...
Who knoes, but I'm sure the technology involved improved everyone's lives immeasureably.
Post by: jon collett on January 15, 2024, 12:48:16 PM
Missed the last train to Manchester where I was studying. Tried to wait at Blackburn station for the earliest train but they made me move on a goods train to Preston. Then took the milk train to Manchester.
All this after a 3-0 defeat which effectively ended our challenge and in the middle of my Finals.
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 02:12:50 PM
8 miles move to the NEC / HS2 Interchange where there is loads of space , great motorway connections , HS2 (40 mins to central London) and an airport.Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Whether we like or not that location must be on their radar as a serious option to look at
Post by: chrisw1 on January 15, 2024, 02:21:26 PM
Self fixing accounts whilst you sleep. What could be better?Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
On the hoovering up fans in the surrounding area thing. When I was at Uni, I did a placement year, and wrote to Villa to see if they'd take me on for a year to work in their Marketing team. This would have been early '96, so we had quite a good side back then. It was also the VERY early days of the Internet. In my application I pitched the idea of 30-second ads in provincial cinemas as a cheap way to reach new fans. I'd worked in my own town's cinema during my GCSEs and A Levels, and I'd seen the crappy ads for local restaurants and the like, and how cheap it could be, so I knew if we could create a compelling 30-second video, it would definitely work and we could drive potential new fans to check out our new 'website'. I never heard back from anyone...
So instead you started up a satirical website. Well nobody's laughing now! (With apologies to Bob Monkhouse)
Oh, that came MUCH later :-) First I joined an big IT company and worked as a gopher on a bid for a massive PFI IT project for the Post Office. I wonder whatever became of that...
Who knoes, but I'm sure the technology involved improved everyone's lives immeasureably.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 15, 2024, 02:24:13 PM
8 miles move to the NEC / HS2 Interchange where there is loads of space , great motorway connections , HS2 (40 mins to central London) and an airport.Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Whether we like or not that location must be on their radar as a serious option to look at
That would kill the club, effectively. That area is a fucking desert and still will be with HS2 there. The traffic around there is also utterly horrendous when anything even remotely big is on at the NEC.
Post by: The Edge on January 15, 2024, 02:27:18 PM
NO NO NO FUCKING NO.8 miles move to the NEC / HS2 Interchange where there is loads of space , great motorway connections , HS2 (40 mins to central London) and an airport.Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Whether we like or not that location must be on their radar as a serious option to look at
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 15, 2024, 02:27:46 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 02:28:54 PM
you've got Resorts World there now so shops / bars / restaurant casino. There's obviously quite a few hotels around that area / airport too. Not my cup of team would be a bit like Wembley and that outlet shopping centre next to it8 miles move to the NEC / HS2 Interchange where there is loads of space , great motorway connections , HS2 (40 mins to central London) and an airport.Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Whether we like or not that location must be on their radar as a serious option to look at
That would kill the club, effectively. That area is a fucking desert and still will be with HS2 there. The traffic around there is also utterly horrendous when anything even remotely big is on at the NEC.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 15, 2024, 02:29:01 PM
40 mins would be a game-changer for attracting tourist fans. I can imagine posters on the underground advertising match tickets.8 miles move to the NEC / HS2 Interchange where there is loads of space , great motorway connections , HS2 (40 mins to central London) and an airport.Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Whether we like or not that location must be on their radar as a serious option to look at
I'd absolutely hate being out there though and I'm not sure there's spare land anyway.
Post by: London Villan on January 15, 2024, 02:37:00 PM
But I don't think the NEC is a viable option for us from an historic location point of view. Logistically though with two big mainline stations, the motorway connections and the Metro I can see what it might be attractive for a 60-70k seater stadium...
Post by: Exeter 77 on January 15, 2024, 02:39:09 PM
Post by: Ads on January 15, 2024, 02:39:49 PM
Post by: London Villan on January 15, 2024, 02:43:24 PM
Just an idle thought. What will happen with the compulsorily purchased land which will no longer be required now the northern bit of HS2 has been cancelled?
It's a bit further north than we need!
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 02:44:10 PM
Fantastic, a stadium in Marston fucking Green sandwiched in-between an exhibition hall and the M42, built on a sliver of car park. Absolutely dire to get to, limited public transport and a minimum of 19 days of carnage. Fuck no and anybody suggesting it is on crack.
I don't live too far away and am a lazy bastard but it's a big no from me.
I'm up for the old DAF site though.
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 02:44:28 PM
Just an idle thought. What will happen with the compulsorily purchased land which will no longer be required now the northern bit of HS2 has been cancelled?have they bought the land and kicked people out yet etc ?
Post by: AV82EC on January 15, 2024, 02:44:33 PM
Just an idle thought. What will happen with the compulsorily purchased land which will no longer be required now the northern bit of HS2 has been cancelled?
There is no compulsorily purchased land to do with the northern bit of HS2 that would in anyway be suitable as its all to the N and NE of Brum and out in the sticks.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 15, 2024, 02:47:13 PM
Post by: London Villan on January 15, 2024, 02:51:24 PM
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 02:54:06 PM
As an aside I dont think I ever saw an answer about where any potential HS2 tunnel started and finished. I saw a mate yesterday who’s missus works on it, he said the tunnel has already started near Water Orton and goes to near Washwood Heath, so when it’s finished there will be development land above it although the bit I thought might be a goer, where the cement factory is on the side of the spine road, is earmarked for railway sidings.
There's a massive works just past Park Hall School next to the M6, that must be the start point.
The sodding wagons are endlessly trundling past my house.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 15, 2024, 02:57:25 PM
you've got Resorts World there now so shops / bars / restaurant casino. There's obviously quite a few hotels around that area / airport too. Not my cup of team would be a bit like Wembley and that outlet shopping centre next to it8 miles move to the NEC / HS2 Interchange where there is loads of space , great motorway connections , HS2 (40 mins to central London) and an airport.Both the Jets and the Giants play in the Metlife, which is 5 miles west of Manhattan. Nothing really to do with franchising, it’s just because there’s more space there.
They don't play in the state they're from. It would be like us moving to Sandwell, which is only 4 miles from Villa Park, because there is more space.
Whether we like or not that location must be on their radar as a serious option to look at
That would kill the club, effectively. That area is a fucking desert and still will be with HS2 there. The traffic around there is also utterly horrendous when anything even remotely big is on at the NEC.
40,000 people trying to get into Nando's and Pizza Hut. Whoopee do.
Post by: PeterWithe on January 15, 2024, 03:00:32 PM
I'm up for the old DAF site though.
Thats going to be Railway sidings
Post by: The Man With A Stick on January 15, 2024, 03:03:08 PM
Fantastic, a stadium in Marston fucking Green sandwiched in-between an exhibition hall and the M42, built on a sliver of car park. Absolutely dire to get to, limited public transport and a minimum of 19 days of carnage. Fuck no and anybody suggesting it is on crack.
It'd be alright to get to if you're using Jet2 or Ryanair, though Aziz Coaches from Sparkbrook aren't keen.
A big fat fuck-off NO to the NEC from me.
Post by: LeeB on January 15, 2024, 03:03:16 PM
I'm up for the old DAF site though.
Thats going to be Railway sidings
Build above them, would add to the Victorian vibe.
Post by: Risso on January 15, 2024, 03:05:36 PM
40,000 people trying to get into Nando's and Pizza Hut. Whoopee do.
They won't want existing Nando's and Pizza Hut anywhere near, they'll want to develop an area so they own the whole lot and rent it all out.
Post by: eamonn on January 15, 2024, 03:10:10 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 15, 2024, 03:25:57 PM
40,000 people trying to get into Nando's and Pizza Hut. Whoopee do.
They won't want existing Nando's and Pizza Hut anywhere near, they'll want to develop an area so they own the whole lot and rent it all out.
Exactly. Those who say the NEC is a goer think we're going to be able to stick an entire new complex on some mythical bit of land close to all the existing good bits even though they're miles from each other and in between them is a fucking great exhibition centre.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 15, 2024, 03:37:51 PM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
I was a massive football but didn’t support any specific club until I was taken to Villa. I lived in south Northants and this was the easiest PL club to visit (ignoring Coventry).
We are uniquely placed in the country to attract fans like me, and subsequently three or four of my mates; yet right now it is a absolute ball-ache trying to buy tickets together for a small group of irregular fans.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 15, 2024, 03:46:29 PM
Good post Smithy. We're by the biggest club between London and the North West, and we should be hoovering up neutrals, as the only other clubs in the area are much smaller, provincial nobodies.
It's a good point. I wonder how many potential fans live within a 60-minute drive of VP? That's probably as far south as Northampton given it's motorway all the way for them.
I was a massive football but didn’t support any specific club until I was taken to Villa. I lived in south Northants and this was the easiest PL club to visit (ignoring Coventry).
We are uniquely placed in the country to attract fans like me, and subsequently three or four of my mates; yet right now it is a absolute ball-ache trying to buy tickets together for a small group of irregular fans.
Nothing to do with tickets, but H&V contains a lot of irregular people, let alone fans. Bring your mates here.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 15, 2024, 03:51:01 PM
I still think that the plan (in the short term at least) is to do absolutely nothing except extort more money from the existing capacity. If they are looking at moving, then Comcast will want a big site that supports multi use like retail, dining, leisure, residential and office space etc. It's the only only way to make any money from a new stadium complex. In that respect, we become a secondary consideration.
Secondary from a commercial perspective possibly, but all big developments need an anchor tenant. I’d see Villa as that, the star attraction that pulls in all the ancillary services.
Post by: Dave P on January 15, 2024, 03:52:10 PM
Post by: Villan82 on January 15, 2024, 04:12:58 PM
So, Mr Heck, get cracking on expanding at the Witton end as was planned.
Post by: Kevin Dawson on January 15, 2024, 04:42:55 PM
I have read the developments on this thread with interest and still hold to the view that where we have been since 1897 is just about as good a location as we are likely to find.
So, Mr Heck, get cracking on expanding at the Witton end as was planned.
I completely agree. After going to Villa Park since 1976, it would be an enormous wrench to leave it for me. I do worry though that we'll be seeing ST price hikes of at least 10% for the next 3-4 years (at least). For the time being, I could afford that, although I recognise that some wouldn't be able to. The time would come when I also would struggle to afford it.
My personal opinion (for what it's worth) is to build a new North Stand, look at extending the Witton Lane Stand, and also look at the feasibility of building the Holte End over Trinity Road, and putting another level on it.
I clearly recognise though that there are significant transport issues.
Post by: Villan82 on January 15, 2024, 05:36:06 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 15, 2024, 06:02:19 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 06:08:46 PM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.It's obvious what most Villa fans want , but the decision won't be based on what we want.
Post by: TheMalandro on January 15, 2024, 06:15:12 PM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.
I think a new stadium would be far easier. If they can find a place to build one.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 15, 2024, 06:24:34 PM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.
I think a new stadium would be far easier. If they can find a place to build one.
Yeah, me too. You’d maintain revenue levels whilst it is being built, which could be crucial for FFP.
Post by: Richard on January 15, 2024, 06:26:37 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 15, 2024, 06:26:50 PM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.
I think a new stadium would be far easier. If they can find a place to build one.
Easy, I've identified the perfect location in B6.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 15, 2024, 06:40:38 PM
Hi Olaftab, that was exactly where I was thinking.There is one thought I've had.Chris, are you talking about the area in between St. Vincent Street/Gilby road/Browning street? If so it will take heaven and earth to move out the residents, and why should they? There are now living in prime land and if they did agree to move it will be expensive for the council or another body.
While I've previously said you'd have to be barmy to think the club are moving, I happen to know there is a housing estate near to central Brum that the council, according to concerned locals, want to tear down and replace with posh appartments and the like.
Now, I don't know how well founded these fears are, but if the council now find themselves bankrupt then maybe they'd be open to an offer from a sporting institution for the land. Flattening the whole estate, which the last time I looked had a fair amount of greenery, would provide an area with a circular footprint with a radius of at least 190 metres (I checked on Google Earth, of course) which is comparable to Wembley stadium.
The location would be close to Five Ways station, close to Broad Street and about a ten minute walk from town.
And having written this, I really hope the club aren't planning to move there.
I imagine a fair proportion of the residents there are council tenants, and from the stuff I've seen online, they seem/seemed very concerned that they'd be moved on without being given the choice to stay.
All that said, it's been pointed out that the lack of motorway access and the regular gridlocks there would make it an unattractive, and so unlikely, option for the club.
I will admit that when I was in my 20s I'd have loved the option to leave the match and find myself on Broad Street within five minutes. But a move from our current home is not for me.
Post by: TheMalandro on January 15, 2024, 06:55:11 PM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.
I think a new stadium would be far easier. If they can find a place to build one.
Easy, I've identified the perfect location in B6.
It’s a difficult one.
If we are serious about competing at the top. A move and new stadium might be required.
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 07:12:54 PM
It's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.zone 1 is £68 !!
Post by: Gareth on January 15, 2024, 07:20:07 PM
It's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.
And that’s exactly where we are heading, they will test ST prices and match day prices, if a couple of thousand don’t renew due to the prices they’ll test the waiting list….thats how they’ll define demand, can they make enough out of 39k home fans to negate the need to rebuild in the short term.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see £100 match day tickets for seats only cat A next season
Post by: claret+blue ed on January 15, 2024, 07:33:13 PM
It's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.Just had a look and my ticket for this fixture 2 years ago was £49.50
Not sure what it works out per ticket as an ST, but this is now starting to become ridiculous on a game by game basis as a member
I’m not on the ST waiting list as I probably only make about 10 games a season now as I live 120 mile away, but might rethink that now as it might not be much more
Post by: VillaTim on January 15, 2024, 07:44:37 PM
my ST works out to just under £40 a gameIt's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.Just had a look and my ticket for this fixture 2 years ago was £49.50
Not sure what it works out per ticket as an ST, but this is now starting to become ridiculous on a game by game basis as a member
I’m not on the ST waiting list as I probably only make about 10 games a season now as I live 120 mile away, but might rethink that now as it might not be much more
Post by: Meanwood Villa on January 15, 2024, 07:50:47 PM
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on January 15, 2024, 08:09:49 PM
It's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.zone 1 is £68 !!
£58 in The North Stand for the Newcastle game on a Tuesday night, by the looks of the kick off time it’s on TV as well.
Post by: Bent Neilsens Screamer on January 15, 2024, 08:11:55 PM
Just an idle thought. What will happen with the compulsorily purchased land which will no longer be required now the northern bit of HS2 has been cancelled?
There’s a load around Lichfield, perfect for all our fans who live in The Shires. I’m not really sure what’s going on there as they’re still working on it?
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 15, 2024, 08:14:46 PM
Post by: Meanwood Villa on January 15, 2024, 08:17:27 PM
I doubt there will be such a thing as Category A games next season.
I can only assume this means cheaper tickets all round. Happy days.
Post by: Villan82 on January 15, 2024, 08:21:17 PM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.
I think a new stadium would be far easier. If they can find a place to build one.
Yeah, me too. You’d maintain revenue levels whilst it is being built, which could be crucial for FFP.
What is it I am missing? It's our oldest, smallest and least commercial stand they had been planning to redevelop. We still would have 36,000 capacity with it demolished! It's not like we were going to flatten the whole ground and play the games out in Aston Park while we waited for it to be built.
Post by: Smithy on January 15, 2024, 09:07:29 PM
I doubt there will be such a thing as Category A games next season.
I can only assume this means cheaper tickets all round. Happy days.
"All games are Category A, but some are more Category A than others."
Post by: TonyD on January 15, 2024, 09:35:29 PM
Yep. Taking the piss.It's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.zone 1 is £68 !!
£58 in The North Stand for the Newcastle game on a Tuesday night, by the looks of the kick off time it’s on TV as well.
You would have thought Heck might have done a little homework on Villa fans and big ticket price hikes.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 15, 2024, 09:52:11 PM
Yep. Taking the piss.It's not just ST price hikes. £63 for Man U on a Sunday at 4.30 in February is sadly a bridge too far for me.zone 1 is £68 !!
£58 in The North Stand for the Newcastle game on a Tuesday night, by the looks of the kick off time it’s on TV as well.
You would have thought Heck might have done a little homework on Villa fans and big ticket price hikes.
The prices were sorted a long time before he arrived.
Post by: tomd2103 on January 16, 2024, 01:41:13 AM
Kevin, I agree 110%. It's the obvious way forward (North first, and then and Witton, at least) and gets us to 55,000-60,000 without all the problems of a new build.
I honestly don't think we would need that kind of expansion in the near future. The North Stand redevelopment and 52,000 would be more than enough for the foreseeable future. I think we would have to see sustained success for a number of years to extend any bigger than that. That would give ample time to explore options for the Witton Lane stand and surrounding area.
Post by: FrankyH on January 16, 2024, 09:38:21 AM
Post by: Drummond on January 16, 2024, 01:41:17 PM
Aston Villa v Newcastle - Tuesday 30th January - 20:15 Kick Off
The Lower Grounds - Premium Experience
Arrive to The Lower Grounds entrance situated within the Holte End, Access 3hrs pre & 1.5hrs post (no HT access, concourse only), Inclusive drinks – selected beers, wines, and soft drinks, Inclusive ‘all you can eat’ food offering served at street food stations, Official Longside Seats in Trinity Road Stand Upper Block A2, Former player discussions and large media screens, Complimentary Matchday programme
£250 Per Person
Post by: KRS on January 16, 2024, 02:11:04 PM
Post by: DB on January 16, 2024, 02:43:20 PM
I genuinely don’t think they understand their target audience if they think these overpriced packages are what regular match goers want and can afford…or may be that’s the whole point (ie targetting day trippers rather than regular match going Villa fans).
Redscouse and Tootinham have loads of daytrippers, build a bigger stadium and target both....priority to 'regular' fans
Post by: TheMalandro on January 16, 2024, 03:15:34 PM
I genuinely don’t think they understand their target audience if they think these overpriced packages are what regular match goers want and can afford…or may be that’s the whole point (ie targetting day trippers rather than regular match going Villa fans).
Redscouse and Tootinham have loads of daytrippers, build a bigger stadium and target both....priority to 'regular' fans
They are not all day trippers either - some are fans that are fine paying extra.
I certainly understand concerns if basic tickets are £60+ however.
Post by: DB on January 16, 2024, 04:20:36 PM
I genuinely don’t think they understand their target audience if they think these overpriced packages are what regular match goers want and can afford…or may be that’s the whole point (ie targetting day trippers rather than regular match going Villa fans).
Redscouse and Tootinham have loads of daytrippers, build a bigger stadium and target both....priority to 'regular' fans
They are not all day trippers either - some are fans that are fine paying extra.
I certainly understand concerns if basic tickets are £60+ however.
Agreed.
With Spuds, they could have thousands of seats available if they sold Son, so many Koreans go there.
Post by: cdward on January 16, 2024, 04:55:00 PM
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10234693/Chelsea-Liverpool-City-Man-Uniteds-matchday-income-revealed-does-club-make.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10234693/Chelsea-Liverpool-City-Man-Uniteds-matchday-income-revealed-does-club-make.html)
"..the biggest clubs are working hard on how to bring in money from more expensive tickets and additional hospitality."
" teams have to find increasingly clever ways to drive growth, particularly in the absence of major stadium expansions.
..Tactics increasingly include, creating additional ‘premium seating’ in areas of the stadium..
‘The clubs are looking to increase revenue, so it is not worth adding more seats unless you add more boxes and hospitality,'
...
..‘If the additional seats go to season ticket holders that does not work financially. The additional capacity could be sold as premium seating, but not if the redevelopment is behind the goal because premium seats tend to be along the side around the half-way line.
‘Clubs will only go for increases in capacity if it is combined with a significant return from hospitality.'
Post by: VillaTim on January 16, 2024, 05:18:50 PM
Just had this email come through from one of those 'Hospitality organisations. A previous employee subscribed and I get his emails forwarded to me. Usually they are tickets for Champs League etc games.why not just buy direct from the club ? create an account / client ref and away you go for far less
Aston Villa v Newcastle - Tuesday 30th January - 20:15 Kick Off
The Lower Grounds - Premium Experience
Arrive to The Lower Grounds entrance situated within the Holte End, Access 3hrs pre & 1.5hrs post (no HT access, concourse only), Inclusive drinks – selected beers, wines, and soft drinks, Inclusive ‘all you can eat’ food offering served at street food stations, Official Longside Seats in Trinity Road Stand Upper Block A2, Former player discussions and large media screens, Complimentary Matchday programme
£250 Per Person
Post by: waynejames on January 16, 2024, 05:41:12 PM
A new north stand will send ticket prices into orbit....
Post by: VillaTim on January 16, 2024, 06:21:43 PM
totally understandableI'm almost done with this premier league merry go round. Im not being rinsed for a day out at the football. Burnley at home in the lower north was about the most i'm ever going to pay to watch what was a working mens game. Yeah yeah i'll miss it but hey ho non league here i go. Wages just do not keep up with this circus. I have done and will do the remaining conference games, 81 quid for the first 3 home home was about right.
A new north stand will send ticket prices into orbit....
Post by: Chris Harte on January 16, 2024, 06:38:33 PM
Just had this email come through from one of those 'Hospitality organisations. A previous employee subscribed and I get his emails forwarded to me. Usually they are tickets for Champs League etc games.The club are selling that package themselves for £130. It's still overpriced.
Aston Villa v Newcastle - Tuesday 30th January - 20:15 Kick Off
The Lower Grounds - Premium Experience
Arrive to The Lower Grounds entrance situated within the Holte End, Access 3hrs pre & 1.5hrs post (no HT access, concourse only), Inclusive drinks – selected beers, wines, and soft drinks, Inclusive ‘all you can eat’ food offering served at street food stations, Official Longside Seats in Trinity Road Stand Upper Block A2, Former player discussions and large media screens, Complimentary Matchday programme
£250 Per Person
A fool and their money, and all that.
Post by: VillaTim on January 16, 2024, 06:44:52 PM
it only stacks up financially if you are a very heavy drinkerJust had this email come through from one of those 'Hospitality organisations. A previous employee subscribed and I get his emails forwarded to me. Usually they are tickets for Champs League etc games.The club are selling that package themselves for £130. It's still overpriced.
Aston Villa v Newcastle - Tuesday 30th January - 20:15 Kick Off
The Lower Grounds - Premium Experience
Arrive to The Lower Grounds entrance situated within the Holte End, Access 3hrs pre & 1.5hrs post (no HT access, concourse only), Inclusive drinks – selected beers, wines, and soft drinks, Inclusive ‘all you can eat’ food offering served at street food stations, Official Longside Seats in Trinity Road Stand Upper Block A2, Former player discussions and large media screens, Complimentary Matchday programme
£250 Per Person
A fool and their money, and all that.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 16, 2024, 06:45:29 PM
This article is 2 years old, we are obviously playing catch up as a lot of these points are relevant to us and Heck right now.Maybe they're going to target the Witton Lane side of the ground as a priority. That'll delay things alot.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10234693/Chelsea-Liverpool-City-Man-Uniteds-matchday-income-revealed-does-club-make.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-10234693/Chelsea-Liverpool-City-Man-Uniteds-matchday-income-revealed-does-club-make.html)
"..the biggest clubs are working hard on how to bring in money from more expensive tickets and additional hospitality."
" teams have to find increasingly clever ways to drive growth, particularly in the absence of major stadium expansions.
..Tactics increasingly include, creating additional ‘premium seating’ in areas of the stadium..
‘The clubs are looking to increase revenue, so it is not worth adding more seats unless you add more boxes and hospitality,'
...
..‘If the additional seats go to season ticket holders that does not work financially. The additional capacity could be sold as premium seating, but not if the redevelopment is behind the goal because premium seats tend to be along the side around the half-way line.
‘Clubs will only go for increases in capacity if it is combined with a significant return from hospitality.'
Post by: tomd2103 on January 17, 2024, 01:31:33 AM
I genuinely don’t think they understand their target audience if they think these overpriced packages are what regular match goers want and can afford…or may be that’s the whole point (ie targetting day trippers rather than regular match going Villa fans).
Redscouse and Tootinham have loads of daytrippers, build a bigger stadium and target both....priority to 'regular' fans
Liverpool have a worldwide 'fan' base with people with people travelling from all over the world to go to Anfield. Spurs are based in London, which has massive numbers of tourists milling around each weekend looking for something to do and in many cases, just wanting to watch a Premier League match.
We and Birmingham have neither of those, so I'm not sure that demand is there really.
Post by: Towser on January 17, 2024, 07:05:15 AM
I used to always go on the Holte and Holte Upper when they built the new stand, season ticket holder since late 70's, but my eyes are too old to see the other end of the pitch these days, so I really need to be close to half way line to be able to see both ends clearly, even if I do have an absolute nuicance sitting next to me (not my Wife, the guy the other side) I pay a high price for that privlage and view but will not pay corporate prices to sit in the same seat/ area.
I am 64 this year and fear my match attending years are coming to a close pretty soon.
Post by: frank black on January 17, 2024, 07:16:31 AM
Post by: Mister E on January 17, 2024, 07:59:35 AM
The discussions on FFP elsewhere on this site - and indeed in mainstream media - show the two sides of the coin: the one is where clubs are now struggling to add to their squad because of the FFP constraints; the less-discussed side is the imperative on clubs to increase their top line so that players can become more affordable under FFP. We can expect one without the other.
I suspect that the H&V forum is not representative of the whole fanbase, and there will be plenty of people ready to take my ST seat and that of others here when we vote with our feet. So, I don't think they will find a mass revolt taking place any time soon.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 08:03:57 AM
Post by: Des Little on January 17, 2024, 08:44:48 AM
I wonder if they will target the upper Trinity front few rows, those that sit up there close to the halfway line might lose their seats in the next couple of seasons, I am one of those and I said to my Wife that if they take our seats off us, that will be when we stop having a season ticket.
I used to always go on the Holte and Holte Upper when they built the new stand, season ticket holder since late 70's, but my eyes are too old to see the other end of the pitch these days, so I really need to be close to half way line to be able to see both ends clearly, even if I do have an absolute nuicance sitting next to me (not my Wife, the guy the other side) I pay a high price for that privlage and view but will not pay corporate prices to sit in the same seat/ area.
I am 64 this year and fear my match attending years are coming to a close pretty soon.
This is exactly where I’m at…I may even be that nuisance sitting next to you in Upper Trinity! I fully expect our blocks to be taken over for corporate/GA+ in the next couple of years, it’s inevitable. My eyesight is also poor - sitting behind the goal isn’t an option - so I’ll probably be throwing the towel in when it happens.
Post by: London Villan on January 17, 2024, 09:08:45 AM
Part of the plans with the North Stand was to extend the hospitality spaces in the Trinity to host bars/restaurants of the new GA+ seats - but with that being shelved where will they put 200-300 fans to give them their premium experience? Tents in the car park?
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 09:11:47 AM
The challenge the club have is where to host the GA+ fans if they are converting hundreds of seats.they could convert the old Stumps building into another Lower Grounds type place i suppose or what about those offices etc above the ticket office what happens up there
Part of the plans with the North Stand was to extend the hospitality spaces in the Trinity to host bars/restaurants of the new GA+ seats - but with that being shelved where will they put 200-300 fans to give them their premium experience? Tents in the car park?
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 17, 2024, 09:19:44 AM
I genuinely don’t think they understand their target audience if they think these overpriced packages are what regular match goers want and can afford…or may be that’s the whole point (ie targetting day trippers rather than regular match going Villa fans).
Redscouse and Tootinham have loads of daytrippers, build a bigger stadium and target both....priority to 'regular' fans
They are not all day trippers either - some are fans that are fine paying extra.
Only last month Klopp was telling Liverpool fans to make a noise or give their ticket away to someone who will. And he was right - for once
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 17, 2024, 09:23:29 AM
they could convert the old Stumps building into another Lower Grounds type place i suppose
That's the new Villa Live.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 17, 2024, 09:29:05 AM
The view is actually better in the Witton as you are closer to the pitch, if you can live with the lack of facilities.I wonder if they will target the upper Trinity front few rows, those that sit up there close to the halfway line might lose their seats in the next couple of seasons, I am one of those and I said to my Wife that if they take our seats off us, that will be when we stop having a season ticket.
I used to always go on the Holte and Holte Upper when they built the new stand, season ticket holder since late 70's, but my eyes are too old to see the other end of the pitch these days, so I really need to be close to half way line to be able to see both ends clearly, even if I do have an absolute nuicance sitting next to me (not my Wife, the guy the other side) I pay a high price for that privlage and view but will not pay corporate prices to sit in the same seat/ area.
I am 64 this year and fear my match attending years are coming to a close pretty soon.
This is exactly where I’m at…I may even be that nuisance sitting next to you in Upper Trinity! I fully expect our blocks to be taken over for corporate/GA+ in the next couple of years, it’s inevitable. My eyesight is also poor - sitting behind the goal isn’t an option - so I’ll probably be throwing the towel in when it happens.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 17, 2024, 09:30:56 AM
Makes you think that this is unlikely to be a free facility for all fans when they seem to be so short of hospitality space within the ground.they could convert the old Stumps building into another Lower Grounds type place i suppose
That's the new Villa Live.
Post by: frankmosswasmyuncle on January 17, 2024, 09:52:08 AM
I'm on the back row of the Trinity Middle, just in front of the Hospitality boxes, so in my usual doom-laden mind see it as THE perfect place for them to kick out 3 or 4 rows of us and install another row of boxes.The view is actually better in the Witton as you are closer to the pitch, if you can live with the lack of facilities.I wonder if they will target the upper Trinity front few rows, those that sit up there close to the halfway line might lose their seats in the next couple of seasons, I am one of those and I said to my Wife that if they take our seats off us, that will be when we stop having a season ticket.
I used to always go on the Holte and Holte Upper when they built the new stand, season ticket holder since late 70's, but my eyes are too old to see the other end of the pitch these days, so I really need to be close to half way line to be able to see both ends clearly, even if I do have an absolute nuicance sitting next to me (not my Wife, the guy the other side) I pay a high price for that privlage and view but will not pay corporate prices to sit in the same seat/ area.
I am 64 this year and fear my match attending years are coming to a close pretty soon.
This is exactly where I’m at…I may even be that nuisance sitting next to you in Upper Trinity! I fully expect our blocks to be taken over for corporate/GA+ in the next couple of years, it’s inevitable. My eyesight is also poor - sitting behind the goal isn’t an option - so I’ll probably be throwing the towel in when it happens.
They'll probably rehouse us in Trinity Upper and charge us extra for the privilege!
I'm just waiting for the letter.
Post by: Mister E on January 17, 2024, 10:00:35 AM
All fine while we are doing well on the pitch but we all know if results start falling away the numbers will start dropping , that's what's happened historically anyway .If we don't generate more commercial and matchday income, we will see results slipping away because the better-funded clubs will be able to afford the players that we can't (because of FFP). It's a vicious cycle and at the moment we are not equipped to compete at the top level because the pricing and ground-capacity are out of whack.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 10:11:46 AM
the big extra revenue opportunities must be largely generated from big commercial sponsorship deals , not putting ticket prices up, that will only get you so far.All fine while we are doing well on the pitch but we all know if results start falling away the numbers will start dropping , that's what's happened historically anyway .If we don't generate more commercial and matchday income, we will see results slipping away because the better-funded clubs will be able to afford the players that we can't (because of FFP). It's a vicious cycle and at the moment we are not equipped to compete at the top level because the pricing and ground-capacity are out of whack.
How are Spurs turnover x3 ours ?? cant be gate receipts driving this ?
Heck needs to get better sponsorship deals largely and if we get into the Champs League that will help massively
Post by: London Villan on January 17, 2024, 10:16:18 AM
Makes you think that this is unlikely to be a free facility for all fans when they seem to be so short of hospitality space within the ground.they could convert the old Stumps building into another Lower Grounds type place i suppose
That's the new Villa Live.
No way on earth would this have ever been free - think at least £50 per match.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 17, 2024, 10:22:46 AM
Quote from: VillaTim
[/quote
[/quote
How are Spurs turnover x3 ours ?? cant be gate receipts driving this ?I can't find the figures now, but weren't they a couple of years old?
My season ticket has jumped over 40% over the last two years.
Post by: Mister E on January 17, 2024, 10:25:06 AM
I agree that ticket prices are only a short-term / small-opportunity move. Spurrrrrrrs have over a third more capacity in the stadium; their ticket prices will be higher than ours; their match-day commercial operation is slick-as-shit (in-ground catering is very smart; their store has 15 tills serving a steady and high demand). I do not know much about the commercial / sponsorship deals but Levy - as we know - is a wily old fox and I'm willing to bet their non-match commercial activities knock ours into a cocked hat.the big extra revenue opportunities must be largely generated from big commercial sponsorship deals , not putting ticket prices up, that will only get you so far.All fine while we are doing well on the pitch but we all know if results start falling away the numbers will start dropping , that's what's happened historically anyway .If we don't generate more commercial and matchday income, we will see results slipping away because the better-funded clubs will be able to afford the players that we can't (because of FFP). It's a vicious cycle and at the moment we are not equipped to compete at the top level because the pricing and ground-capacity are out of whack.
How are Spurs turnover x3 ours ?? cant be gate receipts driving this ?
Heck needs to get better sponsorship deals largely and if we get into the Champs League that will help massively
Post by: London Villan on January 17, 2024, 10:27:19 AM
the big extra revenue opportunities must be largely generated from big commercial sponsorship deals , not putting ticket prices up, that will only get you so far.All fine while we are doing well on the pitch but we all know if results start falling away the numbers will start dropping , that's what's happened historically anyway .If we don't generate more commercial and matchday income, we will see results slipping away because the better-funded clubs will be able to afford the players that we can't (because of FFP). It's a vicious cycle and at the moment we are not equipped to compete at the top level because the pricing and ground-capacity are out of whack.
How are Spurs turnover x3 ours ?? cant be gate receipts driving this ?
Heck needs to get better sponsorship deals largely and if we get into the Champs League that will help massively
20,000 additional seats
General admission tickets - cheapest is £52 at Spurs up to £98.
Premiums seats/boxes - Spurs have over 10,000 ( we have approx 2500)
Easy to see where we fall short.
Post by: artvandelay on January 17, 2024, 10:35:29 AM
-Higher capacity
-Much more expensive tickets- prices range for category 'B' game is £48-95 as opposed to our £40.50 to 68.50
-Much slicker catering operation, including being open after the game for a few hours. There's no issue getting a beer or a pie or a gourmet vegan treat
-Being in Europe has simply meant more games played at the stadium, this will obviously help bridge the gap this season
-Hosting the NFL twice a year is a massive revenue generator
-Much better concert provision- 5 nights of Beyonce and then Red Hot Chili Peppers this year, that's 6 nights of revenue.
-Hosting other events, there's been a few rugby games played there if I recall
You can see how it all adds up
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 17, 2024, 10:36:39 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 17, 2024, 10:46:09 AM
Spurs turnover compared to ours
-Higher capacity
-Much more expensive tickets- prices range for category 'B' game is £48-95 as opposed to our £40.50 to 68.50
-Much slicker catering operation, including being open after the game for a few hours. There's no issue getting a beer or a pie or a gourmet vegan treat
-Being in Europe has simply meant more games played at the stadium, this will obviously help bridge the gap this season
-Hosting the NFL twice a year is a massive revenue generator
-Much better concert provision- 5 nights of Beyonce and then Red Hot Chili Peppers this year, that's 6 nights of revenue.
-Hosting other events, there's been a few rugby games played there if I recall
You can see how it all adds up
They're welcome to them.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 17, 2024, 10:46:26 AM
With the original 'Villa Live' plan I was thinking more of a Box Park type facility that would have made money from catering revenue. But feels unlikely now.Makes you think that this is unlikely to be a free facility for all fans when they seem to be so short of hospitality space within the ground.they could convert the old Stumps building into another Lower Grounds type place i suppose
That's the new Villa Live.
No way on earth would this have ever been free - think at least £50 per match.
Post by: London Villan on January 17, 2024, 10:49:40 AM
Boxpark charge £10 - £15 - so no doubt the club would charge more - which may include a drink.
Post by: Risso on January 17, 2024, 10:52:17 AM
they could convert the old Stumps building into another Lower Grounds type place i suppose
That's the new Villa Live.
Which is going to be called the Warehouse.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 17, 2024, 10:56:40 AM
I think that's exactly what the offer will be in the "Warehouse"/Stumps. Benches surrounded by a couple of bars and catering outlets (which will be independent).I don't remember paying to get into Box Park at Wembley?
Boxpark charge £10 - £15 - so no doubt the club would charge more - which may include a drink.
Post by: brontebilly on January 17, 2024, 10:59:33 AM
I genuinely don’t think they understand their target audience if they think these overpriced packages are what regular match goers want and can afford…or may be that’s the whole point (ie targetting day trippers rather than regular match going Villa fans).
Redscouse and Tootinham have loads of daytrippers, build a bigger stadium and target both....priority to 'regular' fans
Liverpool have a worldwide 'fan' base with people with people travelling from all over the world to go to Anfield. Spurs are based in London, which has massive numbers of tourists milling around each weekend looking for something to do and in many cases, just wanting to watch a Premier League match.
We and Birmingham have neither of those, so I'm not sure that demand is there really.
Birmingham is the second biggest city in the UK and effectively it's a one club city for decent football. With a good team playing European competitions, if we can't manage to get 55k+ into the ground every two weeks including a sizeable portion of corporate and tourists it's all the one. I think we are also forgetting how much tourists and opposition fans like going to Villa Park. It's quirky compared to many modern "entertainment venues", a genuine football stadium and we need to market it a lot better. The club needs to finally starting match the ambition of its coach and knock that eyesore of a North Stand.
The main problem is the inability to shift quickly, and safely, people back towards new street station. Over 100 trains a day from Euston go to New Street so getting more daytrippers in should be easy.
Post by: AV82EC on January 17, 2024, 11:19:16 AM
Spurs
Match day €125m
Broadcast €182m
Commercial €215m
Total €532m
Villa
Match day €19m
Broadcast €123m
Commercial €39m
Total €210m
This will of course have altered somewhat for year end 2023. Our on pitch performance will be the driver for big changes to broadcast revenues last year and this and this is helping with better commercial opportunities.
- we’ve closed that gap on broadcast income as we finished higher in the league and may do again this year
- we will increase commercial income if we can deliver Champs League. Adidas kit deal is the start, interesting to see if BK8 stay as headline shirt sponsor if we get top 4 but there’ll be other deals to support that. Some of the concert stuff will have helped with commercial income as well.
Which just leaves Matchday income. We’re so behind in this area it seems to make no sense re: the North Stand and increasing corporate and GA+ opportunities but in terms of the football results driving everything else I can see some logic in wanting to keep 4 sides of the ground open. Let’s wait and see if there’s bigger and grander plans to help start bridging the gap. In the meantime I think we’re about to have our pips squeaked.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 11:23:08 AM
i know they had stuff like Beyonce doing 5 nights there last year and for stuff like that stadiums can charge +£1m a night easily. they can compete with Wembley for events now.I agree that ticket prices are only a short-term / small-opportunity move. Spurrrrrrrs have over a third more capacity in the stadium; their ticket prices will be higher than ours; their match-day commercial operation is slick-as-shit (in-ground catering is very smart; their store has 15 tills serving a steady and high demand). I do not know much about the commercial / sponsorship deals but Levy - as we know - is a wily old fox and I'm willing to bet their non-match commercial activities knock ours into a cocked hat.the big extra revenue opportunities must be largely generated from big commercial sponsorship deals , not putting ticket prices up, that will only get you so far.All fine while we are doing well on the pitch but we all know if results start falling away the numbers will start dropping , that's what's happened historically anyway .If we don't generate more commercial and matchday income, we will see results slipping away because the better-funded clubs will be able to afford the players that we can't (because of FFP). It's a vicious cycle and at the moment we are not equipped to compete at the top level because the pricing and ground-capacity are out of whack.
How are Spurs turnover x3 ours ?? cant be gate receipts driving this ?
Heck needs to get better sponsorship deals largely and if we get into the Champs League that will help massively
If we had something like that in Brum maybe thats what Heck/NSWE have in mind
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 11:25:38 AM
Here’s the scale of the issue as I see it (figures are the year end 2022 numbers as per Deloittes)matchday is a big gap
Spurs
Match day €125m
Broadcast €182m
Commercial €215m
Total €532m
Villa
Match day €19m
Broadcast €123m
Commercial €39m
Total €210m
This will of course have altered somewhat for year end 2023. Our on pitch performance will be the driver for big changes to broadcast revenues last year and this and this is helping with better commercial opportunities.
- we’ve closed that gap on broadcast income as we finished higher in the league and may do again this year
- we will increase commercial income if we can deliver Champs League. Adidas kit deal is the start, interesting to see if BK8 stay as headline shirt sponsor if we get top 4 but there’ll be other deals to support that. Some of the concert stuff will have helped with commercial income as well.
Which just leaves Matchday income. We’re so behind in this area it seems to make no sense re: the North Stand and increasing corporate and GA+ opportunities but in terms of the football results driving everything else I can see some logic in wanting to keep 4 sides of the ground open. Let’s wait and see if there’s bigger and grander plans to help start bridging the gap. In the meantime I think we’re about to have our pips squeaked.
But Commercial is colossall
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 11:26:18 AM
I think that's exactly what the offer will be in the "Warehouse"/Stumps. Benches surrounded by a couple of bars and catering outlets (which will be independent).that will generate peanuts , it won't scratch the surface of the issue
Boxpark charge £10 - £15 - so no doubt the club would charge more - which may include a drink.
Post by: eamonn on January 17, 2024, 11:34:34 AM
Spurs turnover compared to ours
-Higher capacity
-Much more expensive tickets- prices range for category 'B' game is £48-95 as opposed to our £40.50 to 68.50
-Much slicker catering operation, including being open after the game for a few hours. There's no issue getting a beer or a pie or a gourmet vegan treat
-Being in Europe has simply meant more games played at the stadium, this will obviously help bridge the gap this season
-Hosting the NFL twice a year is a massive revenue generator
-Much better concert provision- 5 nights of Beyonce and then Red Hot Chili Peppers this year, that's 6 nights of revenue.
-Hosting other events, there's been a few rugby games played there if I recall
You can see how it all adds up
They're welcome to them.
Yeah, we got Pink and The Boss so there.
Post by: DB on January 17, 2024, 11:36:07 AM
Here’s the scale of the issue as I see it (figures are the year end 2022 numbers as per Deloittes)
Spurs
Match day €125m
Broadcast €182m
Commercial €215m
Total €532m
Villa
Match day €19m
Broadcast €123m
Commercial €39m
Total €210m
This will of course have altered somewhat for year end 2023. Our on pitch performance will be the driver for big changes to broadcast revenues last year and this and this is helping with better commercial opportunities.
- we’ve closed that gap on broadcast income as we finished higher in the league and may do again this year
- we will increase commercial income if we can deliver Champs League. Adidas kit deal is the start, interesting to see if BK8 stay as headline shirt sponsor if we get top 4 but there’ll be other deals to support that. Some of the concert stuff will have helped with commercial income as well.
Which just leaves Matchday income. We’re so behind in this area it seems to make no sense re: the North Stand and increasing corporate and GA+ opportunities but in terms of the football results driving everything else I can see some logic in wanting to keep 4 sides of the ground open. Let’s wait and see if there’s bigger and grander plans to help start bridging the gap. In the meantime I think we’re about to have our pips squeaked.
Just out of interest, how long before Spuds pay off the new stadium against those figures?
Post by: LeeB on January 17, 2024, 11:36:07 AM
Post by: London Villan on January 17, 2024, 11:38:29 AM
I think that's exactly what the offer will be in the "Warehouse"/Stumps. Benches surrounded by a couple of bars and catering outlets (which will be independent).that will generate peanuts , it won't scratch the surface of the issue
Boxpark charge £10 - £15 - so no doubt the club would charge more - which may include a drink.
Of course not on its own - but it's the principle.
Everything will have its price and be chargeable. From 1500 fans in an old warehouse, through to being able to pay a couple of grand per match per person to sit in the players tunnel, like Man City do
Post by: AV82EC on January 17, 2024, 11:38:52 AM
Here’s the scale of the issue as I see it (figures are the year end 2022 numbers as per Deloittes)
Spurs
Match day €125m
Broadcast €182m
Commercial €215m
Total €532m
Villa
Match day €19m
Broadcast €123m
Commercial €39m
Total €210m
This will of course have altered somewhat for year end 2023. Our on pitch performance will be the driver for big changes to broadcast revenues last year and this and this is helping with better commercial opportunities.
- we’ve closed that gap on broadcast income as we finished higher in the league and may do again this year
- we will increase commercial income if we can deliver Champs League. Adidas kit deal is the start, interesting to see if BK8 stay as headline shirt sponsor if we get top 4 but there’ll be other deals to support that. Some of the concert stuff will have helped with commercial income as well.
Which just leaves Matchday income. We’re so behind in this area it seems to make no sense re: the North Stand and increasing corporate and GA+ opportunities but in terms of the football results driving everything else I can see some logic in wanting to keep 4 sides of the ground open. Let’s wait and see if there’s bigger and grander plans to help start bridging the gap. In the meantime I think we’re about to have our pips squeaked.
Just out of interest, how long before Spuds pay off the new stadium against those figures?
Haven’t a clue and have no desire to go digging in their accounts to find out.
Post by: DB on January 17, 2024, 11:48:00 AM
Here’s the scale of the issue as I see it (figures are the year end 2022 numbers as per Deloittes)
Spurs
Match day €125m
Broadcast €182m
Commercial €215m
Total €532m
Villa
Match day €19m
Broadcast €123m
Commercial €39m
Total €210m
This will of course have altered somewhat for year end 2023. Our on pitch performance will be the driver for big changes to broadcast revenues last year and this and this is helping with better commercial opportunities.
- we’ve closed that gap on broadcast income as we finished higher in the league and may do again this year
- we will increase commercial income if we can deliver Champs League. Adidas kit deal is the start, interesting to see if BK8 stay as headline shirt sponsor if we get top 4 but there’ll be other deals to support that. Some of the concert stuff will have helped with commercial income as well.
Which just leaves Matchday income. We’re so behind in this area it seems to make no sense re: the North Stand and increasing corporate and GA+ opportunities but in terms of the football results driving everything else I can see some logic in wanting to keep 4 sides of the ground open. Let’s wait and see if there’s bigger and grander plans to help start bridging the gap. In the meantime I think we’re about to have our pips squeaked.
Just out of interest, how long before Spuds pay off the new stadium against those figures?
Haven’t a clue and have no desire to go digging in their accounts to find out.
I was an open question. Just looking at overall picture and benefits vs initial outlay of a new stadium.
I see that have 2 more NFL matches lined up, another benefit to increase revenue
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 11:50:14 AM
Post by: Stu82 on January 17, 2024, 12:04:05 PM
Here’s the scale of the issue as I see it (figures are the year end 2022 numbers as per Deloittes)
Spurs
Match day €125m
Broadcast €182m
Commercial €215m
Total €532m
Villa
Match day €19m
Broadcast €123m
Commercial €39m
Total €210m
This will of course have altered somewhat for year end 2023. Our on pitch performance will be the driver for big changes to broadcast revenues last year and this and this is helping with better commercial opportunities.
- we’ve closed that gap on broadcast income as we finished higher in the league and may do again this year
- we will increase commercial income if we can deliver Champs League. Adidas kit deal is the start, interesting to see if BK8 stay as headline shirt sponsor if we get top 4 but there’ll be other deals to support that. Some of the concert stuff will have helped with commercial income as well.
Which just leaves Matchday income. We’re so behind in this area it seems to make no sense re: the North Stand and increasing corporate and GA+ opportunities but in terms of the football results driving everything else I can see some logic in wanting to keep 4 sides of the ground open. Let’s wait and see if there’s bigger and grander plans to help start bridging the gap. In the meantime I think we’re about to have our pips squeaked.
Just out of interest, how long before Spuds pay off the new stadium against those figures?
Just seen an article on a spurs site which says as of May 23, they have £823m debt largest in Europe.
Also don’t understand the match day figures for Villa at £19m surely that’s higher, that equates to £ 25 per head spend.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 12:07:39 PM
(40,000 x £70 x 19)
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 12:10:52 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 17, 2024, 12:21:23 PM
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 12:23:51 PM
Post by: Stu82 on January 17, 2024, 12:27:18 PM
If it was £19m for an average attendance of 40k a year ago, which is the same now, £70 is miles off.
I worked same kind of number with 2500 corporate at £200 plus usual tickets is about £ 50m
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 17, 2024, 12:29:26 PM
Post by: AV82EC on January 17, 2024, 12:30:31 PM
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 12:33:22 PM
Post by: AV82EC on January 17, 2024, 12:35:55 PM
The figure would be £16m according to Deloitte as that's in Euros. I guess it would include lost revenue on home games from the back end of the fincial year in 2021 to COVID restrictions.
Think that maybe it Ads. I’d fully envisage that being closer to €25m at the next accounts for last season then increasing for this season as well.
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 12:39:33 PM
30,000 season ticket holders paying on average £750 = £22.5m
3000 away fans paying £30 = £1.7m
Assuming there's 2500 corporate paying £200 per game 19 times a season = £9.5m
6500 general admission paying £50 on average = £6.1m
Even with those really generous numbers, we're a tickle under £40m. A New North puts us over the £50m limit and still £70m less than Spurs. Every year.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 17, 2024, 12:43:09 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 17, 2024, 12:48:27 PM
Does it include catering revenue?
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 12:50:12 PM
New ground please.
Post by: Stu82 on January 17, 2024, 12:54:55 PM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 17, 2024, 01:00:31 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 17, 2024, 01:05:27 PM
Post by: Risso on January 17, 2024, 01:06:12 PM
It's still nowhere near £70 per head per game and critically, it's an absolute light year behind Spurs, who can afford another Diaby more than us, every year.
New ground please.
What do we do in the intervening ten years?
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 01:08:14 PM
£70 on average probably isn't far off when you add those doing corporate which will be a much higher spend. Some of which will be ST holders by having a box all season etc.£70 won't be far off , when you factor in all the full corporate and food/drink sales , plus we now have LG & TV to factor in. Zone 1 tickets are £68 for cat A games aswell. £70 won't be far off the mark.
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 01:13:05 PM
It's still nowhere near £70 per head per game and critically, it's an absolute light year behind Spurs, who can afford another Diaby more than us, every year.
New ground please.
What do we do in the intervening ten years?
Squeeze the juice out folks with fancy watches *winky face*
Post by: LeeB on January 17, 2024, 01:22:33 PM
It's still nowhere near £70 per head per game and critically, it's an absolute light year behind Spurs, who can afford another Diaby more than us, every year.
New ground please.
What do we do in the intervening ten years?
Squeeze the juice out folks with fancy watches *winky face*
And two boilers.
Post by: Risso on January 17, 2024, 01:33:38 PM
It's still nowhere near £70 per head per game and critically, it's an absolute light year behind Spurs, who can afford another Diaby more than us, every year.
New ground please.
What do we do in the intervening ten years?
Squeeze the juice out folks with fancy watches *winky face*
They're going to do that anyway, and out of people with a £9.99 Casio. That's not going to help us catch up much though, they should be doing that with 10,000 extra seats.
I'm in no way wedded to VP and would love a new ground, but if they wanted to go down that route, they should have started the process ages ago. At the moment, if there's not even vague plans in place, it's going to take a decade.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 01:39:16 PM
The big gap is "Commercial" - this is where Heck needs to go to town
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 17, 2024, 01:53:40 PM
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
Post by: Stu82 on January 17, 2024, 02:17:36 PM
Deloitte, using one assumes the club's accounts, provide one number, but some really figure plucked from the air calculations by people on the internet say "Nah, reckon it's 5 times as much".
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
Good point, but perhaps part of the difference between us and spurs is in the allocation of income, food, hospitality, corporate being accounted elsewhere.
I originally thought it was a typing error.
Post by: Nev on January 17, 2024, 02:24:00 PM
Post by: Risso on January 17, 2024, 02:48:55 PM
Deloitte, using one assumes the club's accounts, provide one number, but some really figure plucked from the air calculations by people on the internet say "Nah, reckon it's 5 times as much".
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
Good point, but perhaps part of the difference between us and spurs is in the allocation of income, food, hospitality, corporate being accounted elsewhere.
I originally thought it was a typing error.
We recognise four elements of turnover:
Gate receipts - obviously bums on seats
Broadcasting - TV money
Sponsorship - shirt and other sponsorship deals
Commercial - merchandising, conferences and gigs at Villa Park, and interestingly, loan fees for players we loan out.
I was going to look at what Spurs include in the same categories, but that's the H&V equivalent of saying Candyman in the mirror three times, so didn't bother in case Villadawg showed up. I imagine it's more or less the same though.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 17, 2024, 03:21:17 PM
Don't forget, however minor the impact, the media act almost as PR companies for some clubs. One only has to look at the different approach with regards to injuries between clubs like ours and Spurs, the ridiculous "rags to riches" painting of Stockport City's treble last season and the tsunami of bullshit whenever Liverpool play at home. Attracting those "floating" fans is difficult but if someone is bigging you up every five minutes, it definitely helps.
It also helps with sponsorships.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 17, 2024, 03:34:19 PM
Don't forget, however minor the impact, the media act almost as PR companies for some clubs. One only has to look at the different approach with regards to injuries between clubs like ours and Spurs, the ridiculous "rags to riches" painting of Stockport City's treble last season and the tsunami of bullshit whenever Liverpool play at home. Attracting those "floating" fans is difficult but if someone is bigging you up every five minutes, it definitely helps.This is something we can improve on.
Marketing, PR and Media relations is important and an area just like catering, merchandise and kit design we look decidedly amateurish.
We can’t even get the badge right.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 03:56:39 PM
Post by: Ads on January 17, 2024, 04:42:50 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 04:47:24 PM
They take £1m in beer sales alone everytime they host the NFL.i'd need to be pissed to watch that crap too
Post by: Drummond on January 17, 2024, 05:41:18 PM
It's still nowhere near £70 per head per game and critically, it's an absolute light year behind Spurs, who can afford another Diaby more than us, every year.
New ground please.
What do we do in the intervening ten years?
Squeeze the juice out folks with fancy watches *winky face*
And two boilers.
I bet they aren't boilers; if he's got plenty of dosh he'd be able to attract far more attractive women.
Post by: clash city rocker on January 17, 2024, 05:54:59 PM
Spurs figures look artificially inflated to me . Must have some good accountants
They share accountants with Trump I reckon
Post by: brontebilly on January 17, 2024, 06:44:51 PM
Deloitte, using one assumes the club's accounts, provide one number, but some really figure plucked from the air calculations by people on the internet say "Nah, reckon it's 5 times as much".
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
The history and credibility of audit "partners" like Deloitte might lead you to swing more towards randomers on the internet for your facts. They were the audit partner of the basket case FAI for over 20 years, for example.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 09:24:15 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 17, 2024, 09:40:18 PM
Accountants cooking the books , surely not
If Spurs are making a lot of revenue from their catering, it's more likely to be accountants just booking the cooking.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 17, 2024, 10:25:39 PM
Spurs figures look artificially inflated to me . Must have some good accountants
Yes, that infamous brand of very good accountants who make it look like a company has more revenue than it actually does, thereby ensuring they pay more tax?
Post by: LeeB on January 17, 2024, 10:26:51 PM
Spurs figures look artificially inflated to me . Must have some good accountants
Yes, that infamous brand of very good accountants who make it look like a company has more revenue than it actually does, thereby ensuring they pay more tax?
Hey, don't cone around here with your fancy 'thinking'.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 17, 2024, 10:40:02 PM
Spurs figures look artificially inflated to me . Must have some good accountants
Yes, that infamous brand of very good accountants who make it look like a company has more revenue than it actually does, thereby ensuring they pay more tax?
Hey, don't cone around here with your fancy 'thinking'.
Sorry, I just allowed myself to get triggered by the notorious simpleton Cooper's Injury.
Post by: VillaTim on January 17, 2024, 11:20:29 PM
Deloitte / PWC both have form when it comes to massaging the numbers . As for high turnover relating to a high tax bill, anyone with half a brain will know there's plenty of avenues for avoiding the tax man.Deloitte, using one assumes the club's accounts, provide one number, but some really figure plucked from the air calculations by people on the internet say "Nah, reckon it's 5 times as much".
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
The history and credibility of audit "partners" like Deloitte might lead you to swing more towards randomers on the internet for your facts. They were the audit partner of the basket case FAI for over 20 years, for example.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 17, 2024, 11:37:10 PM
As for high turnover relating to a high tax bill, anyone with half a brain will know there's plenty of avenues for avoiding the tax man.
To be fair, you probably have us beat on that score.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 18, 2024, 07:47:14 AM
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 18, 2024, 07:57:08 AM
I'm sure I read that Spurs' new stadium has an on site brewery. So it'll cost to make the beer but they won't have to pay to transport it. This presumably equals more profit when they sell it on matchday.But of their beers on sale are the usual mass produced crap.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 18, 2024, 08:43:29 AM
I suspect that very rarely involves inflating your income.Deloitte / PWC both have form when it comes to massaging the numbers . As for high turnover relating to a high tax bill, anyone with half a brain will know there's plenty of avenues for avoiding the tax man.Deloitte, using one assumes the club's accounts, provide one number, but some really figure plucked from the air calculations by people on the internet say "Nah, reckon it's 5 times as much".
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
The history and credibility of audit "partners" like Deloitte might lead you to swing more towards randomers on the internet for your facts. They were the audit partner of the basket case FAI for over 20 years, for example.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 18, 2024, 08:45:39 AM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 18, 2024, 08:53:47 AM
I'm sure I read that Spurs' new stadium has an on site brewery. So it'll cost to make the beer but they won't have to pay to transport it. This presumably equals more profit when they sell it on matchday.
We’re getting one of them.
Post by: LeeB on January 18, 2024, 09:00:57 AM
I'm sure I read that Spurs' new stadium has an on site brewery. So it'll cost to make the beer but they won't have to pay to transport it. This presumably equals more profit when they sell it on matchday.
We’re getting one of them.
So with the catering staff we have we literally won't be able to organise a piss up in a brewery.
Post by: Nev on January 18, 2024, 09:39:04 AM
I'm sure I read that Spurs' new stadium has an on site brewery. So it'll cost to make the beer but they won't have to pay to transport it. This presumably equals more profit when they sell it on matchday.
Yes but what happens when the horse dies?
One for the teenagers there.
Post by: frankmosswasmyuncle on January 18, 2024, 09:51:21 AM
Very good Lee! :-)I'm sure I read that Spurs' new stadium has an on site brewery. So it'll cost to make the beer but they won't have to pay to transport it. This presumably equals more profit when they sell it on matchday.
We’re getting one of them.
So with the catering staff we have we literally won't be able to organise a piss up in a brewery.
Post by: VillaTim on January 18, 2024, 10:26:42 AM
Helps with FFP though in the Football IndustryI suspect that very rarely involves inflating your income.Deloitte / PWC both have form when it comes to massaging the numbers . As for high turnover relating to a high tax bill, anyone with half a brain will know there's plenty of avenues for avoiding the tax man.Deloitte, using one assumes the club's accounts, provide one number, but some really figure plucked from the air calculations by people on the internet say "Nah, reckon it's 5 times as much".
I know who I believe. It's almost as bad as when people, who are not engineers with a long history of working on projects like this, assure us it "wouldn't be too difficult" to implement whatever utterly hatstand idea they have for adding seats.
The history and credibility of audit "partners" like Deloitte might lead you to swing more towards randomers on the internet for your facts. They were the audit partner of the basket case FAI for over 20 years, for example.
Post by: algy on January 18, 2024, 10:39:02 AM
Made me laugh :)As for high turnover relating to a high tax bill, anyone with half a brain will know there's plenty of avenues for avoiding the tax man.
To be fair, you probably have us beat on that score.
Like that Marx Brothers line ...
"Why, this is so simple even a 5 year old could understand it!"
"Quick! Someone bring me a 5 year old! I can't make head nor tail of this"
Post by: VillaTim on January 18, 2024, 11:05:34 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 18, 2024, 11:10:36 AM
How on earth do Man Chea£y have a higher turnover than Man Utd ;) another firm of great accountants
Are you some kind of performance artist?
Post by: Ads on January 18, 2024, 11:35:15 AM
How on earth do Man Chea£y have a higher turnover than Man Utd ;) another firm of great accountants
Are you some kind of performance artist?
There's a reason he was banned twice before.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 18, 2024, 11:37:42 AM
How on earth do Man Chea£y have a higher turnover than Man Utd ;) another firm of great accountantsSponsorship.
Nothing to do with Accountants, it’s to do with them being owned by an oil state and connected parties paying massively over the odds.
Post by: Ads on January 18, 2024, 11:40:35 AM
Like Cato before me, I call for the destruction of Villa Park and a new ground please.
Post by: VillaTim on January 18, 2024, 11:50:26 AM
Which is supposed to not happen under FFP. Artificially inflating sponsorship deals is against the rulesHow on earth do Man Chea£y have a higher turnover than Man Utd ;) another firm of great accountantsSponsorship.
Nothing to do with Accountants, it’s to do with them being owned by an oil state and connected parties paying massively over the odds.
Post by: Chris Smith on January 18, 2024, 12:52:14 PM
Which is supposed to not happen under FFP. Artificially inflating sponsorship deals is against the rulesHow on earth do Man Chea£y have a higher turnover than Man Utd ;) another firm of great accountantsSponsorship.
Nothing to do with Accountants, it’s to do with them being owned by an oil state and connected parties paying massively over the odds.
Hence the 115 charges.
Now that we’re back where we started do you want to start the whole merry-go-round again?
Post by: Stu82 on January 18, 2024, 01:18:36 PM
Newcastle marchday income is £38m. A ground with 10,000 more seats. West Ham is £41m, a ground with 20,000 more seats. I refer to the honoruable member for Satriales in his scathing rebuke of the accounts deniers and the fanciful notion that £70 per head is about right.
Like Cato before me, I call for the destruction of Villa Park and a new ground please.
I do find these figures mystifying, perhaps it is as Risso suggested, that the corporate and hospitality for Villa is not in match day figures.
Because figures above give Newcastle a per head price of £ 38, W ham (despite loads of empty seats) £36 per head, and Villa £23.
Think we can all agree £23 is a bit low.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 18, 2024, 01:22:05 PM
Post by: Stu82 on January 18, 2024, 01:23:36 PM
It will depend what year the numbers are for, as Ads pointed out our £19m will have including part of the covid restrictions.
That’ll be it then
Post by: Dave P on January 18, 2024, 01:25:58 PM
I'm sure I read that Spurs' new stadium has an on site brewery. So it'll cost to make the beer but they won't have to pay to transport it. This presumably equals more profit when they sell it on matchday.But of their beers on sale are the usual mass produced crap.
It's a Beavertown brewery on site in the stadium.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 18, 2024, 02:01:55 PM
It's a Beavertown brewery on site in the stadium.
A friend of mine once said that a successful social network needs to make women feel safe on it. Because then men will want to be there, too, where the women are. It's a bit like boozers,
It all makes sense now.
Post by: Ads on January 18, 2024, 04:44:21 PM
Post by: Olneythelonely on January 18, 2024, 05:22:29 PM
How on earth do Man Chea£y have a higher turnover than Man Utd ;) another firm of great accountants
Are you some kind of performance artist?
There's a reason he was banned twice before.
I’m just finding out this is Cooper’s Injury. He must be an adult now.
Post by: eamonn on January 18, 2024, 05:36:53 PM
Post by: wince on January 18, 2024, 06:18:09 PM
Post by: brontebilly on January 18, 2024, 07:58:02 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 18, 2024, 08:09:52 PM
Post by: paul_e on January 20, 2024, 01:01:04 PM
Reading through this am surprised many of you want to move from VP. Would be mortified if villa moved from fortress trinity road
Top of the list, miles above any other concern, is that I want to see us win trophies. If moving to a new ground with better facilities, more space and better setup to earn money on non-match days gives us the funds we need to compete then I don't see any chance it won't happen whilst we have owners with the same aim.
Post by: VillaTim on January 20, 2024, 01:10:39 PM
Post by: luke95 on January 20, 2024, 01:16:26 PM
Reading through this am surprised many of you want to move from VP. Would be mortified if villa moved from fortress trinity roadIt would be the end for me . Villa Park is Aston Villa !
Anywhere else just will not look , feel, smell the same & just will not pull at the heart strings the way VP does . Its so much more than just a fortnightly visit to a game.
Post by: Villan82 on January 20, 2024, 03:31:00 PM
Reading through this am surprised many of you want to move from VP. Would be mortified if villa moved from fortress trinity roadIt would be the end for me . Villa Park is Aston Villa !
Anywhere else just will not look , feel, smell the same & just will not pull at the heart strings the way VP does . Its so much more than just a fortnightly visit.
Same. In fact I don't quite know which I loved first, Villa Park or Aston Villa. I am so bitterly disappointed in them for having such big plans for the stadium and ditching them so abruptly. I have been a total happy clapper since 2018, reluctant to see any negativity and then they did this and I actually haven't been the same since and I can't help but think the timing of the announcement and the slight wobble we had over Christmas are linked- it is a funny old game and momentum is so important on and off the pitch
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 20, 2024, 05:55:38 PM
That's one reason I love Villa Park, another is that, when it is at it, the atmosphere is second to none. I also think that Lerner, to his credit, did a great job of adding more gravitas to the ground with the ersatz Victorian style entrance to the Holte End.
Then, there's the fact the other supporters of other clubs love it, and still find it traditional.
That said, the oldest part of it is 45 years or so old, the newest part almost 25, the facilities range from excellent (corporates) to barely acceptable, to absolutely unacceptable in certain parts of the ground. If you're on the concourse in the Witton, or in the North Stand, or even the Trinity for that matter, it does not feel like you're in one of the best grounds in the country in the 21st century.
The ground, like the club, has a sort of institutional quality to it, a grandeur that, in both cases, doesn't really match what we have been for the last several decades.
I just think pretty soon we're going to be presented with a very difficult choice, and going to have to be faced with some realistic decisions about what the club has to do.
Post by: IFWaters on January 20, 2024, 09:11:53 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 20, 2024, 09:24:54 PM
When I go to matches, I find myself thinking that I am staring at the exact same rectangle of grass that generation after generation of my family stared at (coincidentally, the same grass that my gt gt grandfather worked at while it was still the Lower Grounds, and there was no football ground there).
Cue someone telling you that, because grass grows and is mown, it''s not the same rectangle of grass your ancestors looked at. :(
Post by: KevinGage on January 20, 2024, 09:29:48 PM
That said, 50-55k feels our natural limit and we can do that in the current location - with the same stand configuration. There's also something about matches at VP in the autumn/winter sun that has a magical quality. Despite Ellis's best bodge job efforts. Start pissing about with stand layouts and we prob lose that.
I don't envy Spurzzz's new ground at all. Looks like an American football stadium. With the same wanky corporate atmosphere to match. So I'd be in no rush to replicate that.
Post by: Ads on January 20, 2024, 09:30:25 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 20, 2024, 09:34:44 PM
I don't envy Spurzzz's new ground at all. Looks like an American football stadium. With the same wanky corporate atmosphere to match. So I'd be in no rush to replicate that.
Agree with that. Along with Liverpool we've one of the most historic, storied grounds in England so I have zero desire to move from B6.
Post by: VillaTim on January 20, 2024, 09:48:04 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 20, 2024, 09:52:51 PM
if they are pushing seats closer together at Villa Park as the compromise i'd say be careful what you wish for
Stop and think here.
Do you - even you, taking into account your seemingly endless penchant for the absurd - really think that'd logically and physically possible, let alone financially so in terms of cost (were it not an impossibility)?
Really?
Do you honestly think that,
Post by: VillaTim on January 20, 2024, 10:13:05 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 20, 2024, 10:14:29 PM
if they are pushing seats closer together at Villa Park as the compromise i'd say be careful what you wish for
I'm slim, stay out of the Lower Grounds and I'll be fine.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 20, 2024, 10:17:17 PM
It has been mentioned by others in the thread as being an option possibly on the table
"I've seen other people say the earth is flat, so I'll mention it as a genuine possibility"
Were you banned under either of your former usernames, out of interest?
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 20, 2024, 10:19:00 PM
It has been mentioned by others in the thread as being an option possibly on the table
You do realise that ground capacity is dependent on things such as exits and load bearing so you can't just stick an extra thousand seats in a stand that has a safety certificate for ten thousand?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 20, 2024, 10:42:24 PM
It has been mentioned by others in the thread as being an option possibly on the table
You do realise that ground capacity is dependent on things such as exits and load bearing so you can't just stick an extra thousand seats in a stand that has a safety certificate for ten thousand?
Of course he doesnt. Because, well, why would he?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 20, 2024, 10:44:57 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on January 20, 2024, 11:38:34 PM
Felt that expansion of the ground should have been done in the early Lerner era - even when we weren't selling out every game. We'd have got enough in most games to ensure the average attendance shot up - as it has with every upgrade since 1994.
That said, 50-55k feels our natural limit and we can do that in the current location - with the same stand configuration. There's also something about matches at VP in the autumn/winter sun that has a magical quality. Despite Ellis's best bodge job efforts. Start pissing about with stand layouts and we prob lose that.
I don't envy Spurzzz's new ground at all. Looks like an American football stadium. With the same wanky corporate atmosphere to match. So I'd be in no rush to replicate that.
Agree and I think the 50-55k can be achieved by just rebuilding the North Stand and sorting out the transport issues that would present. Upgrading the corporate and other facilities at the ground for fans and whether those can be incorporated is another question.
Post by: Drummond on January 26, 2024, 10:17:42 AM
They are also now going to use the area in their partnership with F1 and have Go Kart tracks there with sound effects from F1, sponsor stuff all over etc.
It got me thinking about the North and potential for something even bigger and better. What if we did something similar? Retractable pitch so gigs etc are easier?
Post by: Ads on January 26, 2024, 10:31:29 AM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 26, 2024, 12:06:43 PM
https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/tickets/premium-experiences/matchday-options/experiences
Post by: Chris Harte on January 26, 2024, 12:38:10 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on January 26, 2024, 12:42:09 PM
Premium stuff Spurs offerThey ain't messing about. Looks like you're looking at an average of £650 a ticket for some of the packages. This is why their matchday income is so high.
https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/tickets/premium-experiences/matchday-options/experiences
And, unlike at the Villa,, their Hospitality hasn't sold out for the season.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on January 26, 2024, 12:45:14 PM
Post by: London Villan on January 26, 2024, 12:46:04 PM
I must be on some mailing list and received an email today about the baseball/rounders at the Olympic stadium in the summer. Cheapest adult tickets on ticketmaster are 97quid…
And it will sell out. Same as the NFL in London. Charge what you like and it will still sell out.
Post by: Drummond on January 26, 2024, 12:47:08 PM
Premium stuff Spurs offerThey ain't messing about. Looks like you're looking at an average of £650 a ticket for some of the packages. This is why their matchday income is so high.
https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/tickets/premium-experiences/matchday-options/experiences
And, unlike at the Villa,, their Hospitality hasn't sold out for the season.
And looking at it, there isn't a real fan in sight.
Post by: Lsvilla on January 26, 2024, 12:47:34 PM
I must be on some mailing list and received an email today about the baseball/rounders at the Olympic stadium in the summer. Cheapest adult tickets on ticketmaster are 97quid…Do Wham get the revenue or LDC / Olympic legacy fund ?
Post by: Chris Harte on January 26, 2024, 01:01:25 PM
Plenty of prawn sandwiches though.Premium stuff Spurs offerThey ain't messing about. Looks like you're looking at an average of £650 a ticket for some of the packages. This is why their matchday income is so high.
https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/tickets/premium-experiences/matchday-options/experiences
And, unlike at the Villa,, their Hospitality hasn't sold out for the season.
And looking at it, there isn't a real fan in sight.
Meanwhile, you'd have thought the club would have removed the following from the website.
avfc.co.uk/villa-park/future
Edit, dunno how to make that a working link on mobile.
Post by: Axl Rose on January 26, 2024, 01:10:31 PM
Premium stuff Spurs offerThey ain't messing about. Looks like you're looking at an average of £650 a ticket for some of the packages. This is why their matchday income is so high.
https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/tickets/premium-experiences/matchday-options/experiences
And, unlike at the Villa,, their Hospitality hasn't sold out for the season.
And looking at it, there isn't a real fan in sight.
Good point..
It looks boring.
If I wanted to go to a restaurant or bar, I'd go to to a restaurant or bar.
I know it isn't for the likes of me, but fucking hell, fuck off Spurs you self important semen stain.
I'm completely missing the point of the whole thing, I know.
Post by: Risso on January 26, 2024, 01:48:26 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 26, 2024, 01:50:01 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on January 26, 2024, 01:51:16 PM
JFC.
Post by: AV82EC on January 26, 2024, 01:55:39 PM
I’m as into posh food as the next pretentious middle class food snob but “deconstructed bowl
Food” sounds like something you’d feed your toddler.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 26, 2024, 01:59:14 PM
It's not deconstructed, they just haven't constructed it in the first place the lazy fuckers.
Post by: VillaTim on January 26, 2024, 02:13:19 PM
Post by: Gareth on January 26, 2024, 02:18:58 PM
Any chef who calls anything they serve up 'deconstructed' is a pretentious prick who deserves a slap.
It's not deconstructed, they just haven't constructed it in the first place the lazy fuckers.
Well Heck has deconstructed the North Stand plans
Post by: exigo on January 26, 2024, 02:28:14 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 26, 2024, 03:26:59 PM
It was crazy, a dreadful band playing too loud, the food was plentiful and ok but I don’t want a 3 course meal before a game.
It was sensory over load.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 26, 2024, 03:29:00 PM
I had the full on corporate experience when we played them.Was your meal constructed?
It was crazy, a dreadful band playing too loud, the food was plentiful and ok but I don’t want a 3 course meal before a game.
It was sensory over load.
Post by: VillaTim on January 26, 2024, 03:44:24 PM
The corporate experience was very much like sitting in an airport lounge , very generic food, beer and staff who were only marginally further up the evolution tree than the ones we have on the Witton Upper concourse
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 26, 2024, 03:48:14 PM
Post by: Gareth on January 26, 2024, 03:55:03 PM
i went to Spurs when we lost 1-2 the other year , Watkins scored .
The corporate experience was very much like sitting in an airport lounge , very generic food, beer and staff who were only marginally further up the evolution tree than the ones we have on the Witton Upper concourse
Jeez…couldn’t go lower down the evolution tree than the servers in Witton Upper….watching them pour a can into a plastic cup makes me more angry than Rob Jones refereeing does
Post by: VillaTim on January 26, 2024, 04:27:02 PM
Its when you order more than one item and the confusion sets in instantlyi went to Spurs when we lost 1-2 the other year , Watkins scored .
The corporate experience was very much like sitting in an airport lounge , very generic food, beer and staff who were only marginally further up the evolution tree than the ones we have on the Witton Upper concourse
Jeez…couldn’t go lower down the evolution tree than the servers in Witton Upper….watching them pour a can into a plastic cup makes me more angry than Rob Jones refereeing does
Post by: eamonn on January 26, 2024, 04:34:56 PM
I did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
1989? H&V was still in its relative infancy, you must have been being courted.
Post by: pablo_picasso on January 26, 2024, 04:43:17 PM
Any chef who calls anything they serve up 'deconstructed' is a pretentious prick who deserves a slap.
It's not deconstructed, they just haven't constructed it in the first place the lazy fuckers.
Same thing happens with artworks & the phrase "undone".
Un-fuckin-finished more like...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 26, 2024, 05:26:06 PM
(https://www.headforpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Best-Bed-2.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2024/01/22/17/80318075-12992535-image-a-4_1705944220080.jpg)
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 26, 2024, 05:38:58 PM
I did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
1989? H&V was still in its relative infancy, you must have been being courted.
2019. Surely you remember Everton Friday.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 26, 2024, 05:40:27 PM
2919. Surely you remember Everton Friday.
Have we won the FA Cup by then?
Post by: Gareth on January 26, 2024, 05:51:57 PM
I did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
1989? H&V was still in its relative infancy, you must have been being courted.
2019. Surely you remember Everton Friday.
Who could forget Wesley under lights ;-)
Post by: Toronto Villa on January 26, 2024, 05:56:24 PM
We're going to copy Chelsea and put beds in the stadium, and charge premium prices for them.
(https://www.headforpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Best-Bed-2.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2024/01/22/17/80318075-12992535-image-a-4_1705944220080.jpg)
Then we can have these hideous types of fans joining the club
https://x.com/hltco/status/1750486626210390381?s=46
Post by: London Villan on January 26, 2024, 05:57:33 PM
Post by: eamonn on January 26, 2024, 06:04:41 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on January 26, 2024, 06:07:54 PM
Then we can have these hideous types of fans joining the club
Bit Harsh.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Paris_Hilton_at_the_US_Capitol_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Post by: eamonn on January 26, 2024, 06:08:23 PM
I did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
1989? H&V was still in its relative infancy, you must have been being courted.
2019. Surely you remember Everton Friday.
Who could forget Wesley under lights ;-)
Ah yes, was on holiday but remember trying to find a bar showing it somewhere.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on January 26, 2024, 07:09:47 PM
Thats a real mish-mash of stands.
I was just thinking, I hope Heck's idea of getting another 3,000 seats doesn't give us something that looks like that, what a dog's dinner.
Post by: FatSam on January 26, 2024, 07:15:28 PM
I’d be surprised if there was a way to make the corner between the Holte and the Witton Lane more of a dog’s dinner than Ellis already has…Thats a real mish-mash of stands.I was just thinking, I hope Heck's idea of getting another 3,000 seats doesn't give us something that looks like that, what a dog's dinner.
Post by: VillaTim on January 26, 2024, 07:18:20 PM
got in at 4am via Broad StreetI did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
1989? H&V was still in its relative infancy, you must have been being courted.
2019. Surely you remember Everton Friday.
Post by: Nev on January 26, 2024, 07:47:33 PM
I did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
Same.
We were in that thing twixt the Trinity Road Stand and the Holte. The view was incredible, food so so. Morley and Mountfield were the speakers, the latter giving us no chance and showing his true colours which is fair do's.
Post match our mate went looking for Mountfield to give him some stick but fortunately couldn't find him.
The same bloke tried to have a pop at McCoist at the Cheltenham Festival for "not giving the Villa enough credit " on ITV. We persuaded him not to on account of the Glasgow heavies looning around.
Post by: Chris Harte on January 26, 2024, 07:52:38 PM
The only time I did corporate I ended up pretty much with Brian Little sat on me knee. Fun times.I did the top corporate at Villa, which was very memorable as it was a) free and b) Everton Friday.
Same.
We were in that thing twixt the Trinity Road Stand and the Holte. The view was incredible, food so so. Morley and Mountfield were the speakers, the latter giving us no chance and showing his true colours which is fair do's.
Post match our mate went looking for Mountfield to give him some stick but fortunately couldn't find him.
The same bloke tried to have a pop at McCoist at the Cheltenham Festival for "not giving the Villa enough credit " on ITV. We persuaded him not to on account of the Glasgow heavies looning around.
Post by: ez on January 27, 2024, 02:26:13 PM
We're going to copy Chelsea and put beds in the stadium, and charge premium prices for them.There's a joke about clean sheets in there somewhere.
(https://www.headforpoints.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Best-Bed-2.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2024/01/22/17/80318075-12992535-image-a-4_1705944220080.jpg)
Post by: HolteL4 on January 27, 2024, 03:42:22 PM
“There aren’t enough facilities in the area for the supporters”.would suggest town centre / NEC or a retail Park somewhere - (think Star City / The Fort etc)
Hmmm. I wonder what that means. Inside five years we’re building elsewhere. Nailed on.
I just can't see us moving to the city centre , it would be just too expensive.
Unless God forbid a ground share with that lot.
I think people need to forget about any idea of moving closer to the city centre. When we move it'll be somewhere secluded and cut off so we are a captive audience so if we want to have something to eat and drink when going to the match we have to pay Hecks prices. The thought that if he puts the prices up to what Heck wants to charge then we all drink in the city centre then go to the match must be killing him inside.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 27, 2024, 04:13:48 PM
Wouldn’t surprise me if the strategy is to keep demand high by restricting supply; as all of us who have economics O levels know this increases prices. At the same time bigger sponsorship deals can still be done which won’t cost £100m or reduce capacity for two years and will dwarf the effect of 10,000 extra seats. Front of shirt, stadium naming rights, etc.
If and when that’s all sorted, we move.
It’s worth bearing in mind that according to the rule of thumb for valuing football clubs (5 x revenue) we are now worth a billion quid, How much did NSWE pay and how much invested since? Just over half that I think? And they’ve sold a chunk recently, they’ll be delighted with their investment so far and will keep investing IMO along with their new partners.
Post by: Villan82 on January 27, 2024, 04:28:17 PM
They have said time and time again we are staying but then again we have seen Heck is very loose in terms of how he defines being trughtful.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on January 27, 2024, 04:47:43 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 27, 2024, 04:50:13 PM
I know people joke about sponsored stadiums but I honestly couldn't give a shit if they did. It's not like we'd actually start saying "The Starbucks Villa Park", no one would say it. I never mentioned Sports Direct when referring to the St James Stadium, it's just the "Saudi Arabian Slaughter House" now.
Wes Eden’s investment company is called Fortress something or other. That’d be alright.
Post by: edgysatsuma89 on January 27, 2024, 04:53:22 PM
I know people joke about sponsored stadiums but I honestly couldn't give a shit if they did. It's not like we'd actually start saying "The Starbucks Villa Park", no one would say it. I never mentioned Sports Direct when referring to the St James Stadium, it's just the "Saudi Arabian Slaughter House" now.
Wes Eden’s investment company is called Fortress something or other. That’d be alright.
Well that would work. Might be an open goal if we lose a few on the bounce, though.
Post by: paul_e on January 27, 2024, 05:02:12 PM
Posted in Emery thread because it went a bit off topic, probably better here:
Wouldn’t surprise me if the strategy is to keep demand high by restricting supply; as all of us who have economics O levels know this increases prices. At the same time bigger sponsorship deals can still be done which won’t cost £100m or reduce capacity for two years and will dwarf the effect of 10,000 extra seats. Front of shirt, stadium naming rights, etc.
If and when that’s all sorted, we move.
It’s worth bearing in mind that according to the rule of thumb for valuing football clubs (5 x revenue) we are now worth a billion quid, How much did NSWE pay and how much invested since? Just over half that I think? And they’ve sold a chunk recently, they’ll be delighted with their investment so far and will keep investing IMO along with their new partners.
This is how I see it, without lots of other investment in infrastructure around the ground it would be difficult to get the value out of the big investment in a new stand so the delay is to see what the other options are to make Villa Park more than a place you visit 19 or so times a year for a couple of hours.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 27, 2024, 05:07:18 PM
I know people joke about sponsored stadiums but I honestly couldn't give a shit if they did. It's not like we'd actually start saying "The Starbucks Villa Park", no one would say it. I never mentioned Sports Direct when referring to the St James Stadium, it's just the "Saudi Arabian Slaughter House" now.
Wes Eden’s investment company is called Fortress something or other. That’d be alright.
I don't know a lot (anything) about sponsorship, but a PE firm isn't really the kind of retail prospect that'd work for sponsoring us. I can't see how we'd demonstrate fair market rate or whatever.
Post by: VillaTim on January 27, 2024, 05:23:48 PM
Post by: Percy McCarthy on January 27, 2024, 05:29:14 PM
I know people joke about sponsored stadiums but I honestly couldn't give a shit if they did. It's not like we'd actually start saying "The Starbucks Villa Park", no one would say it. I never mentioned Sports Direct when referring to the St James Stadium, it's just the "Saudi Arabian Slaughter House" now.
Wes Eden’s investment company is called Fortress something or other. That’d be alright.
I don't know a lot (anything) about sponsorship, but a PE firm isn't really the kind of retail prospect that'd work for sponsoring us. I can't see how we'd demonstrate fair market rate or whatever.
I agree, but I thought of it after I heard the Sty is to be sponsored by their hedge fund owners, Knobhead or something.
Would Comcast get much out of a naming deal perhaps? Again, might not be after that kind of brand recognition.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 27, 2024, 11:28:08 PM
I know people joke about sponsored stadiums but I honestly couldn't give a shit if they did. It's not like we'd actually start saying "The Starbucks Villa Park", no one would say it. I never mentioned Sports Direct when referring to the St James Stadium, it's just the "Saudi Arabian Slaughter House" now.
Wes Eden’s investment company is called Fortress something or other. That’d be alright.
I don't know a lot (anything) about sponsorship, but a PE firm isn't really the kind of retail prospect that'd work for sponsoring us. I can't see how we'd demonstrate fair market rate or whatever.
I agree, but I thought of it after I heard the Sty is to be sponsored by their hedge fund owners, Knobhead or something.
Would Comcast get much out of a naming deal perhaps? Again, might not be after that kind of brand recognition.
Isn't Knighthead some kind of insurance brand?
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 27, 2024, 11:31:44 PM
This is where the waters get murky when owners effectively start sponsoring their own football team - see Man Chea£y FC
Agreed, but Etihad is an airline, that people buy tickets from and travel with.
Post by: VillaTim on January 28, 2024, 12:42:55 AM
Same owners as Chea£y . Overly Inflated sponsorshipsThis is where the waters get murky when owners effectively start sponsoring their own football team - see Man Chea£y FC
Agreed, but Etihad is an airline, that people buy tickets from and travel with.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on January 28, 2024, 07:51:46 AM
Post by: VillaTim on January 28, 2024, 09:01:39 AM
Not for the first time, you're missing the point.i get it , we need a sponsor the general public spend with ? As an aside aren't Fortress now 70% owned by Sheikh Mansour
Post by: chrisw1 on January 30, 2024, 02:10:01 PM
In addition, the 'selling really well' Terrace View has 255 available (just over a quarter) and Lower Grounds 118 (after they have gifted some through a ballot etc).
Yes it's a late KO and there are transport issues. But it's a game against one of our closest rivals whilst we sit in the top 4 of the league. This is why they're not building the North Stand. Don't panic about moving to a new ground, they're too worried about getting enough premium / GA+ sales to build up to 50k let alone 60.
Post by: olaftab on January 30, 2024, 02:15:18 PM
Post by: aev on January 30, 2024, 02:33:02 PM
So they've just this morning released the resale tickets - approx 700 available. Far too late, but I get why they want to squeeze their own sales first.
In addition, the 'selling really well' Terrace View has 255 available (just over a quarter) and Lower Grounds 118 (after they have gifted some through a ballot etc).
Yes it's a late KO and there are transport issues. But it's a game against one of our closest rivals whilst we sit in the top 4 of the league. This is why they're not building the North Stand. Don't panic about moving to a new ground, they're too worried about getting enough premium / GA+ sales to build up to 50k let alone 60.
The all you can eat and drink stuff has to be a bit meh on a weeknight with poor public transport.
Post by: chrisw1 on January 30, 2024, 02:36:53 PM
You're right, but they're not just aiming at pissheads who want to down 10 pints. And if there are 118 available, how many have they given away? I doubt if it's more than 3/4 sold just like TV.So they've just this morning released the resale tickets - approx 700 available. Far too late, but I get why they want to squeeze their own sales first.
In addition, the 'selling really well' Terrace View has 255 available (just over a quarter) and Lower Grounds 118 (after they have gifted some through a ballot etc).
Yes it's a late KO and there are transport issues. But it's a game against one of our closest rivals whilst we sit in the top 4 of the league. This is why they're not building the North Stand. Don't panic about moving to a new ground, they're too worried about getting enough premium / GA+ sales to build up to 50k let alone 60.
The all you can eat and drink stuff has to be a bit meh on a weeknight with poor public transport.
Post by: Drummond on January 30, 2024, 02:50:15 PM
Post by: DB on January 30, 2024, 03:49:06 PM
Post by: London Villan on January 30, 2024, 04:19:34 PM
Post by: KRS on January 30, 2024, 04:40:14 PM
So they've just this morning released the resale tickets - approx 700 available. Far too late, but I get why they want to squeeze their own sales first.This pisses me off no end. It’s absolutely ridiculous and actually stops/prevents people who want to attend from buying tickets.
In addition, the 'selling really well' Terrace View has 255 available (just over a quarter) and Lower Grounds 118 (after they have gifted some through a ballot etc).
Yes it's a late KO and there are transport issues. But it's a game against one of our closest rivals whilst we sit in the top 4 of the league. This is why they're not building the North Stand. Don't panic about moving to a new ground, they're too worried about getting enough premium / GA+ sales to build up to 50k let alone 60.
As an example, I used to be a season ticket holder but personal circumstances meant I was no longer able to attend as much so for a good few seasons I’ve been buying Claret membership along with 2 others. Even with Claret membership it was a total ballache trying to get 2 or 3 seats together (especially in the Upper Holte) unless you were quick off the draw on the ticket office online. Because of this, and not wanting to attend matches sat on our own and 10 rows apart, all 3 of us haven’t bothered with Claret membership this season and none of us have attended a game.
This situation very much applies to Claret members who may have wanted to attend the Newcastle game tonight…a few days ago they may have been looking for tickets, couldn’t get one as only single seats available, and now it’s too short notice if you’ve made plans to watch the game elsewhere or do something else entirely.
I suspect I’m not the only one, or group of fans, that would like to attend and spend but the club are simply not helping with these piss poor decisions and are losing out if those seats don’t end up getting sold (even if it’s chump change in the grand scheme of things but fewer Claret memberships, tickets sales, refreshments and merchandise sales all adds up over the course of a season).
Post by: waynejames on January 30, 2024, 05:46:59 PM
They could have had 2 more towards a full house (me and my lad) if i could have bought 2 tickets together a week ago
Post by: astonvilla82 on January 30, 2024, 07:50:39 PM
Post by: VillaTim on January 30, 2024, 08:03:29 PM
8 pints of Morretti and 6 hot dogs on a school night , what's not to likeSo they've just this morning released the resale tickets - approx 700 available. Far too late, but I get why they want to squeeze their own sales first.
In addition, the 'selling really well' Terrace View has 255 available (just over a quarter) and Lower Grounds 118 (after they have gifted some through a ballot etc).
Yes it's a late KO and there are transport issues. But it's a game against one of our closest rivals whilst we sit in the top 4 of the league. This is why they're not building the North Stand. Don't panic about moving to a new ground, they're too worried about getting enough premium / GA+ sales to build up to 50k let alone 60.
The all you can eat and drink stuff has to be a bit meh on a weeknight with poor public transport.
Post by: Rigadon on January 30, 2024, 08:05:21 PM
8 pints of Morretti and 6 hot dogs on a school night , what's not to likeSo they've just this morning released the resale tickets - approx 700 available. Far too late, but I get why they want to squeeze their own sales first.
In addition, the 'selling really well' Terrace View has 255 available (just over a quarter) and Lower Grounds 118 (after they have gifted some through a ballot etc).
Yes it's a late KO and there are transport issues. But it's a game against one of our closest rivals whilst we sit in the top 4 of the league. This is why they're not building the North Stand. Don't panic about moving to a new ground, they're too worried about getting enough premium / GA+ sales to build up to 50k let alone 60.
The all you can eat and drink stuff has to be a bit meh on a weeknight with poor public transport.
The hangover and shits in the morning would put some off!
Post by: aldridgeboy on January 31, 2024, 08:32:54 PM
I nearly always drive to games, but rushed there from the airport last night. As an old schoolfriend messaged me to say he was there, we agreed to meet in Upper Trinity for a pre match beer ( Trains meant that was never going to happen as it turned out)
So we then agreed on a half time drink. We went straight down on the half time whistle, and got our beer just as the second half kicked off. Absolute farce and no leadership/organisation(The bars, not the team) Not enough staff, not enough good staff, awful system. Why they don't pre poor a few hundred pints like other sporting venues do, I'll never know. It was "freshly poured " (slowly ) and was still flat(ish) and warm( ish), so they wouldn't be losing any quality.
Its just left me thinking I'll never bother trying buying anything again. Maybe its the ex pub manager me that gets me mad, but I just found the whole thing ridiculous
Post by: Des Little on January 31, 2024, 08:59:49 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on January 31, 2024, 09:07:20 PM
Post by: aldridgeboy on January 31, 2024, 09:33:59 PM
They must see this shit ? There is almost no point queuing unless you go down after 20 minutes
Well maybe unfairly, ive always got annoyed with people sqeezing past after 35 mins. I totally now know why they do!
And when fans leave after 85 mins, they're not leaving. They're queuing for the bar for the next game !!
Post by: chrisw1 on February 01, 2024, 09:58:54 AM
The toilet situation is still ridiculous. They refurbed the loos in the lower bit, building in a total of 6 urinal spaces.
Post by: amfy on February 01, 2024, 03:07:37 PM
……but seriously bang them out multi- pourers are a total game changer. No one who drinks in a football concourse is looking for a quality pint and don’t get one regardless.
I’ve worked at festivals with people who’ve never stepped behind a bar before and it just takes all the hassle out of it. Service isn’t just quicker because they don’t have to pour, it’s quicker because there’s so much less to think about.
They could increase turnover loads as well as increasing customer satisfaction.
Post by: Risso on February 01, 2024, 03:15:01 PM
Post by: eamonn on February 01, 2024, 03:30:41 PM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on February 01, 2024, 03:43:43 PM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on February 01, 2024, 03:52:02 PM
Out of interest, what's the difference in the price of a pint of beer at Stamford Bridge compared to VP?
I was in the Chelsea Gate pub by the Shed End before and after the game, a mate of mine talking to a Chelsea fan said that up to an hour before the game they charge £3.50 a pint. Thereafter, it's £6.50 in the stadium.
Post by: Chris Harte on February 02, 2024, 12:56:46 PM
Check out the hospitality prices for the Chelsea cup replay and compare with what Spurs charge (from that link that was put up in this thread about a week ago). On this evidence we are well behind.
TLDR - Spurs highest price £650 or there abouts vs Villa £350 max.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 02, 2024, 01:38:22 PM
I can see the logic in prioritising this and changing the culture so we spend more at matches before building a new stand.
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 01:48:54 PM
We will never get away with those prices in Aston
Post by: Ads on February 02, 2024, 01:53:03 PM
Post by: Risso on February 02, 2024, 01:54:34 PM
Post by: Ads on February 02, 2024, 01:55:39 PM
Yeah it's rough as fuck down there. They're not relying on locals though, in the same way that Villa don't rely very much on the locals from Aston to boost the numbers.
Exactly. We'd shift corporate at those prices to wealthy East Midlanders for example...
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 02:05:35 PM
Have you ever been to Tottenham? They were decapitaing coppers in the estate just down the way from the away end in the 80s. The gentrification of N17 will take... some time and nobody local is paying those prices.many times . I know the immediate area is a dump but they have a wealthier / larger fanbase in the south east / home counties than we have in the Mids
Post by: Ads on February 02, 2024, 02:17:34 PM
Have you ever been to Tottenham? They were decapitaing coppers in the estate just down the way from the away end in the 80s. The gentrification of N17 will take... some time and nobody local is paying those prices.many times . I know the immediate area is a dump but they have a wealthier / larger fanbase in the south east / home counties than we have in the Mids
You didn't say that, you said Aston.
We draw support from all over the place including London. There is a huge shortage of supply at Villa Park. We'd sell at these prices; location is irrelevant, hence why L4, NE1 and LS11 of all places, charge what they do.
Post by: Lucky Eddie on February 02, 2024, 02:51:13 PM
Walk through the West End and you'll see as many ticket agencies selling London football tickets as they sell theatre tickets. Aston will never have that tourist market.
Post by: Ads on February 02, 2024, 03:05:20 PM
Post by: Simon Page on February 02, 2024, 03:12:21 PM
You might have a bigger tourist market to fleece for match tickets in that London, but for the finite availability at even a significantly enlarged Villa Park it makes no real difference.
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 03:27:28 PM
Location is far from irrelevant.exactly, London has a much bigger market to draw on , hence why Fulham can sell basic seats at £230
Walk through the West End and you'll see as many ticket agencies selling London football tickets as they sell theatre tickets. Aston will never have that tourist market.
Post by: Ads on February 02, 2024, 03:50:27 PM
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 03:56:16 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on February 02, 2024, 04:45:30 PM
It's not just the fact Spurs can charge a lot more , there is also more demand there due to location and they need more covers than we do. Same with Arsenal too and the likes of Fulham have been tapping into the wealthy floating market that is much bigger in the South east than the West Mids.So you've got Spurs, Arsenal and Fulham. Don't forget Chelsea and West Ham, as well as Palace and Brentford. All in the same league.
Meanwhile, we've got Wolves as the most local competetion. Centre spot to centre spot it's 11.79 miles (yes, I've been messing about with Google Earth again).
All those London clubs I've mentioned above, if you draw a circle centred on the Emirates, all the other clubs fit into a circle with a radius of 11.79 miles. Do the same on Villa Park and it's Wolves. That's it.
And while Greater London has a greater population than the West Midlands (9.6m vs 2.6m) we've established that we're not looking at the locals to buy these kind of tickets.
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 05:15:03 PM
rule at Palace and Brentford from that list . Palace is more Croydon than London and Brentford are tinpot. I'd add Fulham but they are what i'd call a boutique club and play off the location.It's not just the fact Spurs can charge a lot more , there is also more demand there due to location and they need more covers than we do. Same with Arsenal too and the likes of Fulham have been tapping into the wealthy floating market that is much bigger in the South east than the West Mids.So you've got Spurs, Arsenal and Fulham. Don't forget Chelsea and West Ham, as well as Palace and Brentford. All in the same league.
Meanwhile, we've got Wolves as the most local competetion. Centre spot to centre spot it's 11.79 miles (yes, I've been messing about with Google Earth again).
All those London clubs I've mentioned above, if you draw a circle centred on the Emirates, all the other clubs fit into a circle with a radius of 11.79 miles. Do the same on Villa Park and it's Wolves. That's it.
And while Greater London has a greater population than the West Midlands (9.6m vs 2.6m) we've established that we're not looking at the locals to buy these kind of tickets.
Success on the field of course will always help and if we can get into the Champions League that's a huge boost
Post by: olaftab on February 02, 2024, 05:19:25 PM
But someone has a problem with locals around B6, a bit like couple of other former posters and they keep reminding us on every occasion no change there.Yeah it's rough as fuck down there. They're not relying on locals though, in the same way that Villa don't rely very much on the locals from Aston to boost the numbers.
Exactly. We'd shift corporate at those prices to wealthy East Midlanders for example...
Post by: Chris Harte on February 02, 2024, 05:25:13 PM
You can rule those two out all you wish but they're still within that radius (Wolverhampton isn't Birmingham, BTW) and as established PL clubs will have some ability to attract people willing to pay high-end amounts to watch their football in comfort.rule at Palace and Brentford from that list . Palace is more Croydon than London and Brentford are tinpot. I'd add Fulham but they are what i'd call a boutique club and play off the location.It's not just the fact Spurs can charge a lot more , there is also more demand there due to location and they need more covers than we do. Same with Arsenal too and the likes of Fulham have been tapping into the wealthy floating market that is much bigger in the South east than the West Mids.So you've got Spurs, Arsenal and Fulham. Don't forget Chelsea and West Ham, as well as Palace and Brentford. All in the same league.
Meanwhile, we've got Wolves as the most local competetion. Centre spot to centre spot it's 11.79 miles (yes, I've been messing about with Google Earth again).
All those London clubs I've mentioned above, if you draw a circle centred on the Emirates, all the other clubs fit into a circle with a radius of 11.79 miles. Do the same on Villa Park and it's Wolves. That's it.
And while Greater London has a greater population than the West Midlands (9.6m vs 2.6m) we've established that we're not looking at the locals to buy these kind of tickets.
Success on the field of course will always help and if we can get into the Champions League that's a huge boost
Meanwhile, Villa's hospitality is routinely sold out. That, to me at least, means if they're not going to create more (like in a North Stand development, for instance) then the prices can go up.
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 05:34:57 PM
i don't disagree Heck can push it but on a smaller scale to your Spurs / Arsenals of this world and depending on where we finish this season will influence things too.You can rule those two out all you wish but they're still within that radius (Wolverhampton isn't Birmingham, BTW) and as established PL clubs will have some ability to attract people willing to pay high-end amounts to watch their football in comfort.rule at Palace and Brentford from that list . Palace is more Croydon than London and Brentford are tinpot. I'd add Fulham but they are what i'd call a boutique club and play off the location.It's not just the fact Spurs can charge a lot more , there is also more demand there due to location and they need more covers than we do. Same with Arsenal too and the likes of Fulham have been tapping into the wealthy floating market that is much bigger in the South east than the West Mids.So you've got Spurs, Arsenal and Fulham. Don't forget Chelsea and West Ham, as well as Palace and Brentford. All in the same league.
Meanwhile, we've got Wolves as the most local competetion. Centre spot to centre spot it's 11.79 miles (yes, I've been messing about with Google Earth again).
All those London clubs I've mentioned above, if you draw a circle centred on the Emirates, all the other clubs fit into a circle with a radius of 11.79 miles. Do the same on Villa Park and it's Wolves. That's it.
And while Greater London has a greater population than the West Midlands (9.6m vs 2.6m) we've established that we're not looking at the locals to buy these kind of tickets.
Success on the field of course will always help and if we can get into the Champions League that's a huge boost
Meanwhile, Villa's hospitality is routinely sold out. That, to me at least, means if they're not going to create more (like in a North Stand development, for instance) then the prices can go up.
Some have lost sight of the fact that Terrace View and Lower Grounds aren't exactly selling that well
Post by: Chris Harte on February 02, 2024, 06:03:23 PM
i don't disagree Heck can push it but on a smaller scale to your Spurs / Arsenals of this world and depending on where we finish this season will influence things too.(avoiding a quotathon)
Some have lost sight of the fact that Terrace View and Lower Grounds aren't exactly selling that well
It's well documented why TV and LG aren't doing so well. Aside from the location taking existing facilities away from "regular" fans, the food in the LG at least is slop. People will pay high-end for fine dining. They won't do that burgers, chips and liquid cheese on nachos.
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 06:09:00 PM
our corporate areas don't serve fine dining though, granted its a step up from TV & LG , though Gas Lamp food is pretty poor standards too and i've had better food in average pubs than the pother areas . Maybe Heck will sort that out tooi don't disagree Heck can push it but on a smaller scale to your Spurs / Arsenals of this world and depending on where we finish this season will influence things too.(avoiding a quotathon)
Some have lost sight of the fact that Terrace View and Lower Grounds aren't exactly selling that well
It's well documented why TV and LG aren't doing so well. Aside from the location taking existing facilities away from "regular" fans, the food in the LG at least is slop. People will pay high-end for fine dining. They won't do that burgers, chips and liquid cheese on nachos.
Post by: Chris Harte on February 02, 2024, 06:18:02 PM
Director's Lounge is doing a five course meal, Eighty-Two Restaurant a four course meal. If it's not classed as fine dining it's still more than a step up. Way more. My only experience of hospitality at VP the food was excellent.our corporate areas don't serve fine dining though, granted its a step up from TV & LG , though Gas Lamp food is pretty poor standards too and i've had better food in average pubs than the pother areas . Maybe Heck will sort that out tooi don't disagree Heck can push it but on a smaller scale to your Spurs / Arsenals of this world and depending on where we finish this season will influence things too.(avoiding a quotathon)
Some have lost sight of the fact that Terrace View and Lower Grounds aren't exactly selling that well
It's well documented why TV and LG aren't doing so well. Aside from the location taking existing facilities away from "regular" fans, the food in the LG at least is slop. People will pay high-end for fine dining. They won't do that burgers, chips and liquid cheese on nachos.
Post by: Risso on February 02, 2024, 06:21:34 PM
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 06:45:16 PM
I'm happy with AliBabahs chippy when I go now , few cans from next door and maybe a mooch down private members club ;)
Post by: London Villan on February 02, 2024, 06:50:16 PM
Post by: WassallVillain on February 02, 2024, 09:02:09 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on February 02, 2024, 09:05:24 PM
I just received an offer from my Credit Card supplier to buy tickets for England v New Zealand at Twickenham. £999. That’s true loading onto the corporate.
Does that include a hotel stay ?
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 02, 2024, 09:17:00 PM
Location is far from irrelevant.exactly, London has a much bigger market to draw on , hence why Fulham can sell basic seats at £230
Walk through the West End and you'll see as many ticket agencies selling London football tickets as they sell theatre tickets. Aston will never have that tourist market.
London: Spurs / Arsenal / Chelsea / West Ham / Palace / Fulham / Brentford
Birmingham: Villa / Blues / WBA / Wolves - there’s minimal competition.
With HS2 you could be at a new stadium within an hour from Euston. I don’t see how a well located stadium cannot work and compete directly with West Ham (for a start).
Add in gigs, conferences,hotel, weddings etc and the venue could be a 365 day a year venue. Easy.
Post by: VillaTim on February 02, 2024, 09:33:43 PM
If it's out by the NEC yeah then you'll be close to HS2 Birmingham Interchange station and the airport . It won't be a popular choice though as seen by the comments on here , not that Heck will give a flying f**k.Location is far from irrelevant.exactly, London has a much bigger market to draw on , hence why Fulham can sell basic seats at £230
Walk through the West End and you'll see as many ticket agencies selling London football tickets as they sell theatre tickets. Aston will never have that tourist market.
London: Spurs / Arsenal / Chelsea / West Ham / Palace / Fulham / Brentford
Birmingham: Villa / Blues / WBA / Wolves - there’s minimal competition.
With HS2 you could be at a new stadium within an hour from Euston. I don’t see how a well located stadium cannot work and compete directly with West Ham (for a start).
Add in gigs, conferences,hotel, weddings etc and the venue could be a 365 day a year venue. Easy.
This is all over 10 years away so no immediate drama .
Post by: London Villan on February 02, 2024, 11:16:56 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on February 02, 2024, 11:42:56 PM
It’s why a city centre stadium would be a game changer for us and the city.If only there was a way to move the city centre north, towards Aston.
Post by: tomd2103 on February 03, 2024, 01:30:13 AM
It's not just the fact Spurs can charge a lot more , there is also more demand there due to location and they need more covers than we do. Same with Arsenal too and the likes of Fulham have been tapping into the wealthy floating market that is much bigger in the South east than the West Mids.So you've got Spurs, Arsenal and Fulham. Don't forget Chelsea and West Ham, as well as Palace and Brentford. All in the same league.
Meanwhile, we've got Wolves as the most local competetion. Centre spot to centre spot it's 11.79 miles (yes, I've been messing about with Google Earth again).
All those London clubs I've mentioned above, if you draw a circle centred on the Emirates, all the other clubs fit into a circle with a radius of 11.79 miles. Do the same on Villa Park and it's Wolves. That's it.
And while Greater London has a greater population than the West Midlands (9.6m vs 2.6m) we've established that we're not looking at the locals to buy these kind of tickets.
You've missed out that London has goodness knows how many wealthy visitors milling around every weekend looking for something to do. I love Birmingham, but we just don't have that.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 03, 2024, 10:53:24 AM
That's how West Ham get 60k every home match, and it's a large contributor to how Spurs do it as well.
No other city in this country, and not many others anywhere in Europe, have that appeal in terms of football matches, or the tourists interested to fill the seats.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on February 03, 2024, 10:57:39 AM
Every weekend, there are tens of thousands of foreign tourists in London who would want to go to a premier league match.
That's how West Ham get 60k every home match, and it's a large contributor to how Spurs do it as well.
No other city in this country, and not many others anywhere in Europe, have that appeal in terms of football matches, or the tourists interested to fill the seats.
I'd be amazed if Sunderland didn't have the same as you describe.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 03, 2024, 11:35:07 AM
Every weekend, there are tens of thousands of foreign tourists in London who would want to go to a premier league match.
That's how West Ham get 60k every home match, and it's a large contributor to how Spurs do it as well.
No other city in this country, and not many others anywhere in Europe, have that appeal in terms of football matches, or the tourists interested to fill the seats.
I'd be amazed if Sunderland didn't have the same as you describe.
I guess in Sunderland, the stadium is at least a place to escape to from the grim desolation of the rest of the city.
Post by: Rigadon on February 03, 2024, 11:42:54 AM
I just received an offer from my Credit Card supplier to buy tickets for England v New Zealand at Twickenham. £999. That’s true loading onto the corporate.
Does that include a hotel stay ?
For a fortnight?
Post by: VillaTim on February 03, 2024, 11:48:34 AM
The hospitality food i had at the springsteen was some of the worst food ive ever had in a football stadium, corporate or not. The whole experience was crap. Saved by the gig.i was lucky last year went in the Directors Club or Lions Club whatever its called now through work for the Fulham game . We had that 7 course "tasting menu" . It was pretty mediocre and certainly wasn't fine dining. Bang average and all served up by the same level of service we get over in the Witton Upper. How people sit through that every home game is beyond me
Post by: VillaTim on February 03, 2024, 11:49:01 AM
top trolling there . Sunderland lolEvery weekend, there are tens of thousands of foreign tourists in London who would want to go to a premier league match.
That's how West Ham get 60k every home match, and it's a large contributor to how Spurs do it as well.
No other city in this country, and not many others anywhere in Europe, have that appeal in terms of football matches, or the tourists interested to fill the seats.
I'd be amazed if Sunderland didn't have the same as you describe.
Post by: DB on February 03, 2024, 03:02:43 PM
Every weekend, there are tens of thousands of foreign tourists in London who would want to go to a premier league match.
That's how West Ham get 60k every home match, and it's a large contributor to how Spurs do it as well.
No other city in this country, and not many others anywhere in Europe, have that appeal in terms of football matches, or the tourists interested to fill the seats.
I'd be amazed if Sunderland didn't have the same as you describe.
I guess in Sunderland, the stadium is at least a place to escape to from the grim desolation of the rest of the city.
Spuds have shed loads of Koreans going to matches.
Post by: Risso on February 03, 2024, 04:06:24 PM
The hospitality food i had at the springsteen was some of the worst food ive ever had in a football stadium, corporate or not. The whole experience was crap. Saved by the gig.i was lucky last year went in the Directors Club or Lions Club whatever its called now through work for the Fulham game . We had that 7 course "tasting menu" . It was pretty mediocre and certainly wasn't fine dining. Bang average and all served up by the same level of service we get over in the Witton Upper. How people sit through that every home game is beyond me
Perhaps they just thought you were a bellend and treated you accordingly?
Post by: VillaTim on February 03, 2024, 04:22:29 PM
They probably confused me with youThe hospitality food i had at the springsteen was some of the worst food ive ever had in a football stadium, corporate or not. The whole experience was crap. Saved by the gig.i was lucky last year went in the Directors Club or Lions Club whatever its called now through work for the Fulham game . We had that 7 course "tasting menu" . It was pretty mediocre and certainly wasn't fine dining. Bang average and all served up by the same level of service we get over in the Witton Upper. How people sit through that every home game is beyond me
Perhaps they just thought you were a bellend and treated you accordingly?
Post by: ChicagoLion on February 03, 2024, 04:25:14 PM
The hospitality food i had at the springsteen was some of the worst food ive ever had in a football stadium, corporate or not. The whole experience was crap. Saved by the gig.It was appalling.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on February 06, 2024, 09:52:28 AM
“It’s time to awaken this sleeping giant of a football club – both on and off the pitch - and our supporters have every right to feel excited about what the future holds. Aston Villa is a huge, historic institution that is on the rise again.”
Post by: Sexual Ealing on February 06, 2024, 09:53:48 AM
Post by: algy on February 06, 2024, 09:57:38 AM
Post by: LeeB on February 06, 2024, 09:58:30 AM
OH NO, NOT THE CFO!!! What about all the amortisation?!
I'm amortified.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on February 06, 2024, 09:59:00 AM
What's a CFO? I can only think of chief fire officer ....
Chief Financial Officer , who was that ?
Post by: LeeB on February 06, 2024, 10:02:27 AM
They probably confused me with youThe hospitality food i had at the springsteen was some of the worst food ive ever had in a football stadium, corporate or not. The whole experience was crap. Saved by the gig.i was lucky last year went in the Directors Club or Lions Club whatever its called now through work for the Fulham game . We had that 7 course "tasting menu" . It was pretty mediocre and certainly wasn't fine dining. Bang average and all served up by the same level of service we get over in the Witton Upper. How people sit through that every home game is beyond me
Perhaps they just thought you were a bellend and treated you accordingly?
They're not usually required to cut the customers food up for them.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 06, 2024, 10:07:20 AM
They probably confused me with youThe hospitality food i had at the springsteen was some of the worst food ive ever had in a football stadium, corporate or not. The whole experience was crap. Saved by the gig.i was lucky last year went in the Directors Club or Lions Club whatever its called now through work for the Fulham game . We had that 7 course "tasting menu" . It was pretty mediocre and certainly wasn't fine dining. Bang average and all served up by the same level of service we get over in the Witton Upper. How people sit through that every home game is beyond me
Perhaps they just thought you were a bellend and treated you accordingly?
They're not usually required to cut the customers food up for them.
Especially not when it's alphabetti spaghetti.
Post by: Chris Harte on February 06, 2024, 10:10:01 AM
The bloke in charge of counting the gate receipts, I think.What's a CFO? I can only think of chief fire officer ....
Chief Financial Officer , who was that ?
Nothing on the OS so who knows.
Post by: Brazilian Villain on February 06, 2024, 10:19:25 AM
What's a CFO? I can only think of chief fire officer ....
Chief Financial Officer , who was that ?
Whoever it was, was probably underpaid.
Post by: Risso on February 06, 2024, 01:09:51 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on February 06, 2024, 01:09:57 PM
Post by: Simon Page on February 06, 2024, 01:52:27 PM
Post by: eamonn on February 06, 2024, 02:04:34 PM
OH NO, NOT THE CFO!!! What about all the amortisation?!
Your lack of respect for the finance function is saddening.
Post by: The Edge on February 06, 2024, 10:40:53 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on February 06, 2024, 11:26:16 PM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments evelling up scheme.
Is he from Small Heath?
Post by: Hopadop on February 06, 2024, 11:33:48 PM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments evelling up scheme.
Is he from Small Heath?
He went to Birmingham University so may have strayed off the path and been bitten one night.
Post by: Drummond on February 06, 2024, 11:47:07 PM
Post by: DeKuip on February 07, 2024, 12:27:28 AM
Post by: LeonW on February 07, 2024, 03:59:50 AM
Goes with best wishes and all that, but he just isn't good enough for where we want to be. Could do a job for top Championship club though and I'll never forget the way he could bang those coin bags into the Barclays night safe. His replacement will decide where we're going as a club. Hopefully he can count in Spanish.
This really made me chuckle.
Post by: The Edge on February 07, 2024, 07:34:44 AM
Some journalist twat on SSN has just said he thinks it's a good Idea. FFS, the world really will have gone to shit if it happens.It's only fair really. Man City were given a brand new stadium built using public money so why shouldn't United get one?
Post by: Chris Harte on February 07, 2024, 07:52:14 AM
Answer is in the question really. If United want to play in a publically funded stadium they should.go and share with Citeh.Some journalist twat on SSN has just said he thinks it's a good Idea. FFS, the world really will have gone to shit if it happens.It's only fair really. Man City were given a brand new stadium built using public money so why shouldn't United get one?
Post by: VillaTim on February 07, 2024, 09:11:40 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on February 07, 2024, 10:45:38 AM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments levelling up scheme.That would be disgusting. Hopefully it will neve even get close to getting off the ground. I like Chris H's solution.
Post by: LeeB on February 07, 2024, 11:09:53 AM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments levelling up scheme.That would be disgusting. Hopefully it will neve even get close to getting off the ground. I like Chris H's solution.
The twat built him and his mates a nice big skiing centre in the alps saying it would benefit the community for some kind of tax break and lo and behold, the only people using it are him and his mates.
He's a massive wanker, fits in well there.
Post by: VillaTim on February 07, 2024, 11:12:31 AM
Post by: Nev on February 07, 2024, 11:16:14 AM
Reading between the lines, it a well known fact that the Glaziers have starved the ground of investment and it looks like this Ratcliffe bloke has realised that there is no prospect of it changing so has got the begging bowl out.
He can fuck off, and furthermore, fuck off again.
Post by: Rigadon on February 07, 2024, 11:18:23 AM
is he a tory donor ? if he is good chance he'll pull it off
Maybe in about 15 years.
Post by: Risso on February 07, 2024, 11:19:03 AM
Post by: Rigadon on February 07, 2024, 11:19:13 AM
Some journalist twat on SSN has just said he thinks it's a good Idea. FFS, the world really will have gone to shit if it happens.It's only fair really. Man City were given a brand new stadium built using public money so why shouldn't United get one?
The Theatre of Teams.
Who was the poster on here years ago who always referred to Old Trafford as 'TTOD' or something like that?
Post by: Ads on February 07, 2024, 11:26:12 AM
Some journalist twat on SSN has just said he thinks it's a good Idea. FFS, the world really will have gone to shit if it happens.It's only fair really. Man City were given a brand new stadium built using public money so why shouldn't United get one?
The Theatre of Teams.
Who was the poster on here years ago who always referred to Old Trafford as 'TTOD' or something like that?
VillaTim when he was Cooper's Injury.
Post by: Rigadon on February 07, 2024, 11:27:09 AM
Some journalist twat on SSN has just said he thinks it's a good Idea. FFS, the world really will have gone to shit if it happens.It's only fair really. Man City were given a brand new stadium built using public money so why shouldn't United get one?
The Theatre of Teams.
Who was the poster on here years ago who always referred to Old Trafford as 'TTOD' or something like that?
VillaTim when he was Cooper's Injury.
Oh, haha!
Post by: VillaTim on February 07, 2024, 11:28:09 AM
if he is already , it's probably got legsis he a tory donor ? if he is good chance he'll pull it off
Maybe in about 15 years.
Post by: Risso on February 07, 2024, 11:29:02 AM
Post by: VillaTim on February 07, 2024, 11:30:28 AM
They'd better get it built in the next 6 months then.well, he'll just switch to backing labour if they get in , bit like their plastic fans they change with the wind direction
Post by: Axl Rose on February 07, 2024, 12:12:34 PM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments levelling up scheme.That would be disgusting. Hopefully it will neve even get close to getting off the ground. I like Chris H's solution.
The twat built him and his mates a nice big skiing centre in the alps saying it would benefit the community for some kind of tax break and lo and behold, the only people using it are him and his mates.
He's a massive wanker, fits in well there.
This.
A gigantic penis.
Post by: DB on February 07, 2024, 04:47:43 PM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments levelling up scheme.That would be disgusting. Hopefully it will neve even get close to getting off the ground. I like Chris H's solution.
The twat built him and his mates a nice big skiing centre in the alps saying it would benefit the community for some kind of tax break and lo and behold, the only people using it are him and his mates.
He's a massive wanker, fits in well there.
This.
A gigantic penis.
From a bloke who pays zero UK tax, has a number of ofd-shore accounts, but wants to spend UK taxpayer money to build it. Yeah ok.
Post by: The Edge on February 07, 2024, 05:20:12 PM
Ooohh Matron!! (one for the kids)Jim Radcliffe is pushing for a 90,000 seat Wembley of the North to be built next to Old Trafford which would be used by Man Utd as their home ground. He wants public funding to pay for it under the guise of the governments levelling up scheme.That would be disgusting. Hopefully it will neve even get close to getting off the ground. I like Chris H's solution.
The twat built him and his mates a nice big skiing centre in the alps saying it would benefit the community for some kind of tax break and lo and behold, the only people using it are him and his mates.
He's a massive wanker, fits in well there.
This.
A gigantic penis.
Post by: DB on February 12, 2024, 09:43:21 AM
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1756955818191159706?t=2zcN1Yy6PpaPWJwxGoDRwg&s=19
Post by: AV82EC on February 12, 2024, 09:55:17 AM
Not sure best place for this, but it shows how little we make vs the London clubs and ManUre. I guess more tourists, to but the merch etc. is one factor. Heck must be looking st this stuff and trying to work our how to bridge the gap.
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1756955818191159706?t=2zcN1Yy6PpaPWJwxGoDRwg&s=19
I assume that data doesn’t include ticket cost and is on stuff like pies, beer, hospitality etc?
Post by: DB on February 12, 2024, 09:58:30 AM
Not sure best place for this, but it shows how little we make vs the London clubs and ManUre. I guess more tourists, to but the merch etc. is one factor. Heck must be looking st this stuff and trying to work our how to bridge the gap.
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1756955818191159706?t=2zcN1Yy6PpaPWJwxGoDRwg&s=19
I assume that data doesn’t include ticket cost and is on stuff like pies, beer, hospitality etc?
Quote: it is total matchday income per the accounts, divided by average attendance, divided by the number of home games played (for cup games I have counted each game as 0.5 as matchday income is split between clubs).
Post by: AV82EC on February 12, 2024, 11:39:51 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on February 12, 2024, 11:50:16 AM
Post by: DB on February 12, 2024, 11:51:55 AM
Post by: VillaTim on February 12, 2024, 12:13:36 PM
Post by: itbrvilla on February 12, 2024, 12:14:27 PM
It does beg the question what Heck will do with a 42k stadium to increase revenues....yeah, discussed before, but the tweet show the gap in all it's glory.Went to s night game at the last minute a month or so ago and needed to grab something to eat... Ended up not bothering as the queues were too big and not shrinking for 10 minutes. Ridiculous.
Post by: tomd2103 on February 12, 2024, 12:15:47 PM
In that case then that is absolutely piss poor but reflects a stadium not set up for maximising these things. But we’ve done that to death so I’ll leave it there.
That data is nearly two seasons old now. Would be interesting to see the data for the last two seasons and whether there has been any movement.
Post by: amfy on February 12, 2024, 12:31:25 PM
Not sure best place for this, but it shows how little we make vs the London clubs and ManUre. I guess more tourists, to but the merch etc. is one factor. Heck must be looking st this stuff and trying to work our how to bridge the gap.
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1756955818191159706?t=2zcN1Yy6PpaPWJwxGoDRwg&s=19
I assume that data doesn’t include ticket cost and is on stuff like pies, beer, hospitality etc?
Quote: it is total matchday income per the accounts, divided by average attendance, divided by the number of home games played (for cup games I have counted each game as 0.5 as matchday income is split between clubs).
I don’t understand how our average can be £18 when the very cheapest tickets are twice that much. Even as a bottom end ST holder my ticket is iro £33 a game!
Post by: Stu82 on February 12, 2024, 04:15:51 PM
Not sure best place for this, but it shows how little we make vs the London clubs and ManUre. I guess more tourists, to but the merch etc. is one factor. Heck must be looking st this stuff and trying to work our how to bridge the gap.
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1756955818191159706?t=2zcN1Yy6PpaPWJwxGoDRwg&s=19
I assume that data doesn’t include ticket cost and is on stuff like pies, beer, hospitality etc?
[/quote
Quote: it is total matchday income per the accounts, divided by average attendance, divided by the number of home games played (for cup games I have counted each game as 0.5 as matchday income is split between clubs).
I don’t understand how our average can be £18 when the very cheapest tickets are twice that much. Even as a bottom end ST holder my ticket is iro £33 a game!
Careful Amfy, kicked off big time last time that point was raised.
I agree, mystifies me too.
Post by: DB on February 28, 2024, 01:35:13 PM
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/leaving-villa-park-would-break-28684096
Post by: chrisw1 on March 06, 2024, 09:06:47 AM
I went to a networking event a couple of weeks ago at Villa and the speaker was the club's new head of Strategy and Analytics. This role is looking at the non-playing-side data, amongst other things, doing what supermarkets do with your data through loyalty cards and how they profile your habits).
Anyway... he made some interesting points about measuring the average spend of supporters in the ground, what they spend on merch and food, the different trends and patterns. But importantly about whether the figures stacked up for the new stand - based on the spending power of current fans that this (alongside 1/3 of the ground being affected, transport etc) was one of the reasons it was stopped. Basically, there isn't enough demand (atm) to justify an increase of 2000-3000 premium seats.
There's been a lot of speculation that the North Stand redev was cancelled because we had bigger plans. I always thought it was because we'd got cold feet about our ability to sell enough premium seats. This seems to confirm the latter.
It seems incredibly short-sighted to me to cancel something that could be vital to our progress on the back of failing to sell two poorly thought out, poorly located and poorly executed white elephants in the Holte End. This leads me to really worry about the people making these decisions at the club - it's almost as if they haven't spoken to or listened to fans and are entirely oblivious to what fans think.
Post by: PeterWithe on March 06, 2024, 09:25:48 AM
Post by: Risso on March 06, 2024, 09:26:05 AM
If the plan is to look for a new ground, then fine, but please explain how our revenue is going to keep pace in the intervening 8 years?
Post by: itbrvilla on March 06, 2024, 09:27:06 AM
This post from London Villa in the FFP thread may have gone a bit under the radar , but for any that missed it it's very relevant to this thread (I hope you don't mind me pasting it here LV?)Spot on. Really concerning if true.I went to a networking event a couple of weeks ago at Villa and the speaker was the club's new head of Strategy and Analytics. This role is looking at the non-playing-side data, amongst other things, doing what supermarkets do with your data through loyalty cards and how they profile your habits).
Anyway... he made some interesting points about measuring the average spend of supporters in the ground, what they spend on merch and food, the different trends and patterns. But importantly about whether the figures stacked up for the new stand - based on the spending power of current fans that this (alongside 1/3 of the ground being affected, transport etc) was one of the reasons it was stopped. Basically, there isn't enough demand (atm) to justify an increase of 2000-3000 premium seats.
There's been a lot of speculation that the North Stand redev was cancelled because we had bigger plans. I always thought it was because we'd got cold feet about our ability to sell enough premium seats. This seems to confirm the latter.
It seems incredibly short-sighted to me to cancel something that could be vital to our progress on the back of failing to sell two poorly thought out, poorly located and poorly executed white elephants in the Holte End. This leads me to really worry about the people making these decisions at the club - it's almost as if they haven't spoken to or listened to fans and are entirely oblivious to what fans think.
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on March 06, 2024, 09:49:27 AM
If they really have cancelled the new stand because of current sales figures, then Heck needs his work permit cancelling and his P45 posted to him this very morning. The reason the figures are shit is that the facilities are poor and few people even bother trying to buy anything as a result. Makes the stand better and the facilities better, and people will spend more, it really is simple as that.
If the plan is to look for a new ground, then fine, but please explain how our revenue is going to keep pace in the intervening 8 years?
Yep, Heck recently promised to “turn Villa into an international brand” and “ensure Villa-branded merchandise is sold far and wide” yet he can’t even sell beer to thousands of thirsty, captive fans. Literally unable to run a piss up in a brewery.
Post by: Drummond on March 06, 2024, 11:15:39 AM
Post by: Des Little on March 06, 2024, 11:43:09 AM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 06, 2024, 11:45:03 AM
The bloke's an ass and I'm waiting to be proved wrong.
There is a photo of him with the Acorns shirt ( which is great ) b But he reminds me of a travel Guide for a coach company
Post by: Villan82 on March 06, 2024, 12:09:50 PM
This post from London Villa in the FFP thread may have gone a bit under the radar , but for any that missed it it's very relevant to this thread (I hope you don't mind me pasting it here LV?)Spot on. Really concerning if true.I went to a networking event a couple of weeks ago at Villa and the speaker was the club's new head of Strategy and Analytics. This role is looking at the non-playing-side data, amongst other things, doing what supermarkets do with your data through loyalty cards and how they profile your habits).
Anyway... he made some interesting points about measuring the average spend of supporters in the ground, what they spend on merch and food, the different trends and patterns. But importantly about whether the figures stacked up for the new stand - based on the spending power of current fans that this (alongside 1/3 of the ground being affected, transport etc) was one of the reasons it was stopped. Basically, there isn't enough demand (atm) to justify an increase of 2000-3000 premium seats.
There's been a lot of speculation that the North Stand redev was cancelled because we had bigger plans. I always thought it was because we'd got cold feet about our ability to sell enough premium seats. This seems to confirm the latter.
It seems incredibly short-sighted to me to cancel something that could be vital to our progress on the back of failing to sell two poorly thought out, poorly located and poorly executed white elephants in the Holte End. This leads me to really worry about the people making these decisions at the club - it's almost as if they haven't spoken to or listened to fans and are entirely oblivious to what fans think.
My confidence in the new post Purslow regime was shaken by the badge thing last summer. But I lost all confidence in Heck in December the day he did the interview announcing the new development was off.
The plan for the new North Stand was the best thought out and most ambitious initiative from Villa in 25 years. It also made sense given where we are on the pitch and our need to catch up on clubs who have successfully redeveloped.
Yet it is weird to see a lot of villa fans over social media parrot Heck's lines. I have seen people say we wouldn't fill it, there isn't the demand, we can't play in front of a building site and most bizarre of all somebody on twitter said that Uefa wouldn't allow us host games if we were building a stand!! I mean the last point is so obviously bollocks given that is precisely what Liverpool have done in the past few years!
But all of those points are complete and utter bollocks. Demand has never been higher. We have maxed out the premium offerings in the new Trinity. We need the new stand so badly of we are going to fall so badly behind we will piss away the opportunity of the Emery era.
One final thing if they are basing their assumptions in the fact that premium hasn't really worked in the Holte then they have absolutely no clue about the culture of this football club. The Holte is the Holte, it is one of the iconic home ends in football of course GA plus wasn't going to thrive there FFS
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 06, 2024, 12:29:43 PM
This post from London Villa in the FFP thread may have gone a bit under the radar , but for any that missed it it's very relevant to this thread (I hope you don't mind me pasting it here LV?)Spot on. Really concerning if true.I went to a networking event a couple of weeks ago at Villa and the speaker was the club's new head of Strategy and Analytics. This role is looking at the non-playing-side data, amongst other things, doing what supermarkets do with your data through loyalty cards and how they profile your habits).
Anyway... he made some interesting points about measuring the average spend of supporters in the ground, what they spend on merch and food, the different trends and patterns. But importantly about whether the figures stacked up for the new stand - based on the spending power of current fans that this (alongside 1/3 of the ground being affected, transport etc) was one of the reasons it was stopped. Basically, there isn't enough demand (atm) to justify an increase of 2000-3000 premium seats.
There's been a lot of speculation that the North Stand redev was cancelled because we had bigger plans. I always thought it was because we'd got cold feet about our ability to sell enough premium seats. This seems to confirm the latter.
It seems incredibly short-sighted to me to cancel something that could be vital to our progress on the back of failing to sell two poorly thought out, poorly located and poorly executed white elephants in the Holte End. This leads me to really worry about the people making these decisions at the club - it's almost as if they haven't spoken to or listened to fans and are entirely oblivious to what fans think.
My confidence in the new post Purslow regime was shaken by the badge thing last summer. But I lost all confidence in Heck in December the day he did the interview announcing the new development was off.
The plan for the new North Stand was the best thought out and most ambitious initiative from Villa in 25 years. It also made sense given where we are on the pitch and our need to catch up on clubs who have successfully redeveloped.
Yet it is weird to see a lot of villa fans over social media parrot Heck's lines. I have seen people say we wouldn't fill it, there isn't the demand, we can't play in front of a building site and most bizarre of all somebody on twitter said that Uefa wouldn't allow us host games if we were building a stand!! I mean the last point is so obviously bollocks given that is precisely what Liverpool have done in the past few years!
But all of those points are complete and utter bollocks. Demand has never been higher. We have maxed out the premium offerings in the new Trinity. We need the new stand so badly of we are going to fall so badly behind we will piss away the opportunity of the Emery era.
One final thing if they are basing their assumptions in the fact that premium hasn't really worked in the Holte then they have absolutely no clue about the culture of this football club. The Holte is the Holte, it is one of the iconic home ends in football of course GA plus wasn't going to thrive there FFS
I honestly don't think the redevelopment has been binned off, but I do think it is on hold for a couple of years so that Heck can drive ticket prices up considerably first. If we qualify for the Champions League next season I see us crossing the £100 barrier for ordinary admission tickets for some games next season, and I also reckon that the price of memberships will go up to triple figures too. That way, once the redevelopment is underway the average ticket price will more than make up what we lose from the capacity reduction, and there will be a backlog of people who will be prepared to pay even higher prices when the extra seats are available (at corporate, GA+ and ordinary admission levels).
Post by: eamonn on March 06, 2024, 12:32:25 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 06, 2024, 12:36:02 PM
Post by: danno on March 06, 2024, 12:42:30 PM
I doubt it'd be very interesting to West Ham-supporting cabbies.
Maybe not, but undoubtedly fascinating to the self employed van drivers of Surrey:
“Hi Jim, Hi Simon, first time caller, love the show, that stadium stuff, well interesting, just calling to say Glazers out”.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 06, 2024, 12:46:59 PM
I doubt it'd be very interesting to West Ham-supporting cabbies.
Maybe not, but undoubtedly fascinating to the self employed van drivers of Surrey:
“Hi Jim, Hi Simon, first time caller, love the show, that stadium stuff, well interesting, just calling to say Glazers out”.
*Selco advert*
Post by: LeeB on March 06, 2024, 12:48:08 PM
I doubt it'd be very interesting to West Ham-supporting cabbies.
"So Villa have paused redevelopment of the North Stand. Spurs fans, Arsenal fans, call us to tell us what you think"
Post by: The Edge on March 06, 2024, 12:50:55 PM
A photo you say? What more proof do you need?The bloke's an ass and I'm waiting to be proved wrong.
There is a photo of him with the Acorns shirt ( which is great ) b But he reminds me of a travel Guide for a coach company
Post by: pablo_picasso on March 06, 2024, 01:11:42 PM
If they really have cancelled the new stand because of current sales figures, then Heck needs his work permit cancelling and his P45 posted to him this very morning. The reason the figures are shit is that the facilities are poor and few people even bother trying to buy anything as a result. Makes the stand better and the facilities better, and people will spend more, it really is simple as that.
If the plan is to look for a new ground, then fine, but please explain how our revenue is going to keep pace in the intervening 8 years?
Absolutely.
Both the stadium development & the crest have been fucked with by Heck using flawed data that lacks context.
Im not sure whether this is because he isn't a football man & just doesn't understand how things work, or if it's just simple incompetence.
Either way, he isn't the man for the job, in my humble opinion.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 06, 2024, 01:43:16 PM
A photo you say? What more proof do you need?The bloke's an ass and I'm waiting to be proved wrong.
There is a photo of him with the Acorns shirt ( which is great ) b But he reminds me of a travel Guide for a coach company
exactly I am sold !! ;)
Post by: London Villan on March 06, 2024, 02:10:07 PM
The cold feet has come from potential take-up/demand of the premium offer.
The new stand was going to have at least 2500 additional premium seats.
At an average value per match of £300 over 25 home games that's almost £20m in extra revenue per season.
However - as the reaction to the LG and TV has been lukewarm - with the stats to prove it, alongside the anecdotal evidence, giveaways and hundreds of seats released for sale on the day of the match - you can see why there is some reluctance. Even more so when added to the potential of having a third of the ground out of action for our biggest season for a generation.
Post by: Drummond on March 06, 2024, 02:21:41 PM
TV and LG are oddly conceived ideas that piss off the regular fan by taking their space and trying to get people to pay a premium for a relatively shit value product.
New stand hospitality would be much like current Trinity provision, which is over-subscribed isn't it?-
Post by: chrisw1 on March 06, 2024, 02:38:35 PM
Who knows what demand for quality GA+ in a new stand would be, but they must be able to see that trying to sell a subpar product to fans who are pissed off that you've just shat on their doorstep is hardly a reasonable barometer for demand.
Post by: Risso on March 06, 2024, 02:42:34 PM
I think the error is comparing apples to oranges.
TV and LG are oddly conceived ideas that piss off the regular fan by taking their space and trying to get people to pay a premium for a relatively shit value product.
New stand hospitality would be much like current Trinity provision, which is over-subscribed isn't it?-
Spot on Drummond. There's massive demand for proper corporate hospitality. There's far less appetite for poorly conceived halfway houses like the Terrace View and Lower Grounds. These have been done on the cheap, and both are seen as screwing over existing fans to do it. The TV is seen as encroaching on the sanctity of the Holte, and taking space away from already shit facilities, and the LG has taken away space that season ticket holders used to get for nothing.
Both are a world away from having a new area, specially built in a brand new stand. So if the new North was going to have an extra 8,000 spaces, you could have made that something like:
2,000 extra GA spaces at £800 a season = £1.6m
4,000 GA+ spaces at £2,850 a season = £11.4m
2,000 full corporate spaces at £7,000 a season = £14m
Extra revenue therefore - £27m a season. And that's without cup games and concerts etc in the summer, and eetxra spend by those now able to buy a pint at half time. Very rough figures, but shows what could be achieved.
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 02:46:01 PM
Just jumping back in here. It's not the regular fan demand that's the driving force behind this. Even doubling the spend on pies and pints pre-match and half time (which we all know is a major problem) isn't going to make a massive dent in the figures.The figs look overstated .
The cold feet has come from potential take-up/demand of the premium offer.
The new stand was going to have at least 2500 additional premium seats.
At an average value per match of £300 over 25 home games that's almost £20m in extra revenue per season.
However - as the reaction to the LG and TV has been lukewarm - with the stats to prove it, alongside the anecdotal evidence, giveaways and hundreds of seats released for sale on the day of the match - you can see why there is some reluctance. Even more so when added to the potential of having a third of the ground out of action for our biggest season for a generation.
More like £150 x 25 = £9.4m assuming fully sold out every game (also unlikely)
Post by: Villan82 on March 06, 2024, 02:57:30 PM
I think the error is comparing apples to oranges.
TV and LG are oddly conceived ideas that piss off the regular fan by taking their space and trying to get people to pay a premium for a relatively shit value product.
New stand hospitality would be much like current Trinity provision, which is over-subscribed isn't it?-
100% agree.
Post by: Villan82 on March 06, 2024, 02:59:17 PM
If this is the case it's remarkably naive.
Who knows what demand for quality GA+ in a new stand would be, but they must be able to see that trying to sell a subpar product to fans who are pissed off that you've just shat on their doorstep is hardly a reasonable barometer for demand.
This is why I am 100% convinced we have made a bad hire with heck. Just doesn't 'get it' and is making decisions, or advising for decisions, that will hold us back in the medium term which is so damn frustrating.
The plans were excellent and timely- i was really looking forward to seeing the new stand rise up over the next 18-24 months.
Post by: Drummond on March 06, 2024, 03:12:57 PM
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 06, 2024, 03:13:36 PM
I think the error is comparing apples to oranges.Exactly, with TV and LG they have tried to get half pregnant, ill conceived, poorly marketed and awful execution.
TV and LG are oddly conceived ideas that piss off the regular fan by taking their space and trying to get people to pay a premium for a relatively shit value product.
New stand hospitality would be much like current Trinity provision, which is over-subscribed isn't it?-
As you say miles away from the Trinity Road experience.
Post by: frankmosswasmyuncle on March 06, 2024, 03:19:51 PM
I think the error is comparing apples to oranges.Absolutely this!
TV and LG are oddly conceived ideas that piss off the regular fan by taking their space and trying to get people to pay a premium for a relatively shit value product.
New stand hospitality would be much like current Trinity provision, which is over-subscribed isn't it?-
Post by: chrisw1 on March 06, 2024, 03:51:59 PM
We don't actually know what's going on, or being said, in the background. We don't know if he's looked at it and thought we could go bigger, or perhaps our new investors have come along and suggested the potential of something else. We all want bigger and better for our club, and everything the owners have shown is exactly that.Well we kind of do as it seems to have come directly from the club's new head of Strategy and Analytics.
Post by: London Villan on March 06, 2024, 03:53:34 PM
Look at any of the premium offers from our current peers - there are loads of different choices. Yes there will be fewer at the top end - Man City have an option that is £16k per match - but that sliding scale will get you everything from unlimited street food through to meet the players and walk on the pitch for kick-off.
With the new stand we would have had 5000-6000 premium seats (including what we already have) and if there isn't the demand at the moment to fill 90% of them every match it casts a massive doubt on spending £100m on the new North Stand.
A few years down the line when hopefully we'll have won a trophy or two this might be different.
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 03:59:23 PM
But it wouldn't all be like the high-end Trinity experience. There would be price bands from £150 per match up to £600/£700 (or more) per match.It's a lot of empty seats if things start going Pete Tong on the playing side
Look at any of the premium offers from our current peers - there are loads of different choices. Yes there will be fewer at the top end - Man City have an option that is £16k per match - but that sliding scale will get you everything from unlimited street food through to meet the players and walk on the pitch for kick-off.
With the new stand we would have had 5000-6000 premium seats (including what we already have) and if there isn't the demand at the moment to fill 90% of them every match it casts a massive doubt on spending £100m on the new North Stand.
A few years down the line when hopefully we'll have won a trophy or two this might be different.
Post by: Villan82 on March 06, 2024, 04:29:11 PM
Premium would work in the proposed new North Stand because it would be designed to cater to it properly.
It truly is amateur hour if they do not see this.
Post by: London Villan on March 06, 2024, 04:42:51 PM
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 06, 2024, 04:53:42 PM
Do we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
That is what will be tested next season, again particularly if we get Champions League. With some of the remedial works for additional disabled spaces etc, next season will probably see a reduction in capacity so for an increasing number of people GA+ is going to be the only way they will get a ticket. No doubt there will also be some strong-arming people into buying packages of tickets if they want ones for the bigger games. This will also apply to regular admission tickets - if we think price rises have been steep in the last couple of year, I think we haven't seen anything yet.
Put it this way, there are regular admission tickets on sale for Tottenham on Sunday at £68.00 with no concessions. What do you think that price will go up to for, say, Real Madrid in September? What conditions will supporters have to meet just for the opportunity to buy those tickets. As a comparison, I got an e-mail from the RFU yesterday offering me the opportunity to buy tickets for one Autumn International this year - just for the privilege of buying the ticket, they wanted to charge £99 - the ticket itself is another £130 on top!
Post by: chrisw1 on March 06, 2024, 04:54:43 PM
Do we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
There's seems to be a pretty high demand for full on corporate.
I'd imagine there would also be demand for high-quality GA+ - there seems to be at most other top-end clubs.
The problem is they are trying to gauge interest in a reasonably premium Jag by seeing how many people are prepared to pay a similar price for a souped-up Vauxall Belmont, whilst kicking them in the balls at the same time.
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 04:55:43 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 06, 2024, 04:56:37 PM
I got an e-mail from the RFU yesterday offering me the opportunity to buy tickets for one Autumn International this year - just for the privilege of buying the ticket, they wanted to charge £99 - the ticket itself is another £130 on top!
Better get in there quick, before Nev, Paulie and Martyn snap them up.
Post by: London Villan on March 06, 2024, 04:59:57 PM
I'm as disappointed as anyone about the decision, but I can see why there is caution, when added to the other factors too.
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 06, 2024, 05:07:33 PM
Do we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
£900 for a seat , what do you get for that ?
Post by: chrisw1 on March 06, 2024, 05:09:11 PM
We have a generational manager. The club are throwing away their opportunity to do everything they can to back him because Heck is disappointed that people won't pay £150 for 5 pints of Morreti, as many frankfurters as they can eat and some of the shittest seats in the stadium.
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 06, 2024, 05:11:19 PM
The big matches are the easy sells though - try selling 5000 premium seats for Bournemouth, Luton or Crystal Palace... which we'd have to do to make it pay 90% capacity - for 25+ games every season. We aren't at that point yet.
I'm as disappointed as anyone about the decision, but I can see why there is caution, when added to the other factors too.
The club have done stuff like this before though haven't they i.e. to get access to tickets for a 'gold' level match, you also have to buy tickets for x number of other games? They might not charge them all at the same level, but they could make enough over the piece to hit the numbers they want by charging an absolute fortune for 8-10 biggest matches.
By the way, I'm not in favour of any of this. It is taking the piss out of everyone who supported the club through all of the shit we suffered over the last 15 years, and it's alienating us dangerously if we ever have another downturn. Logically, however, I think this is what Heck has been brought in to do - to absolutely squeeze every last penny he can out of the current set-up before any redevelopment, and build the conditions where there is a large enough number of people who will pay £200+ for a single game.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 06, 2024, 05:12:54 PM
Anything less than Kylie sitting on your lap would be a disappointment at that price.Do we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
£900 for a seat , what do you get for that ?
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 05:12:57 PM
programme, lanyard, chicken dinner and a seat with elbow restsDo we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
£900 for a seat , what do you get for that ?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 06, 2024, 05:21:24 PM
programme, lanyard, chicken dinner and a seat with elbow restsDo we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
£900 for a seat , what do you get for that ?
Maybe even a working toilet where the floor doesn't look like the Battle of Passchendaele.
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 05:28:00 PM
that's available as a bolt-onprogramme, lanyard, chicken dinner and a seat with elbow restsDo we think that at present, there is a market for 5000 premium seats to be sold at every single match? Starting a £150 up to say £900 per seat.
£900 for a seat , what do you get for that ?
Maybe even a working toilet where the floor doesn't look like the Battle of Passchendaele.
Post by: London Villan on March 06, 2024, 06:27:57 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 06, 2024, 06:53:13 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 06, 2024, 07:02:09 PM
https://www.mancity.com/hospitality/autograph?_gl=1*e3jgo5*_ga*MjA1NzE1MTM0Ni4xNzA5NzUxMzgy*_ga_83D496C6PL*MTcwOTc1MTM4Mi4xLjEuMTcwOTc1MTU3Ni41MC4wLjA.*_ga_QFRL9KTV4P*MTcwOTc1MTM4Mi4xLjEuMTcwOTc1MTU3Ni42MC4wLjA.
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 07:03:59 PM
Similar to what get at chelsea, spurs or man city for £2-£3k…We did something with work at Chelsea last season when we won 2-0 , you get the usual crap - programme, lanyard, silly food, padded seat . This package came with the added bonus Trevor Chabollah came in afterwards and scowled at everyone for 3 mins 8)
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 06, 2024, 07:25:52 PM
I reckon we would be by far the biggest attraction in the midlands (mainly due to the pitiful state of the other clubs) so we could charge a decent premium without offending the average fan as they’re not in competition.
The current offering is a bad blend of both worlds, probably taking the worst from each.
Post by: Chris Harte on March 06, 2024, 09:47:12 PM
I still don't think we're going to move though. Heck saying the original plan seemed to be "too much, too soon", as well as his assertion from the same interview that he "loves history" is enough to convince me of this.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 06, 2024, 11:08:55 PM
Post by: VillaTim on March 06, 2024, 11:15:33 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 06, 2024, 11:17:22 PM
Also , we need that side on view of corporate on the telly as they kick off the 2nd half and nobody has bothered to come back. That's when we'll know we've made it as a big club in the modern football era.
That's one thing that really concerns me, it is going to look fucking awful seeing a three-tier band of empty seats on tv because of that.
Post by: steamer on March 07, 2024, 05:18:59 AM
As I watch most games on TV i asked a genuine (dumb) question a couple of weeks ago as to why the middle of the Trinity is always deserted for long periods after half time.
It looks terrible and does not boost the Aura of the crowd.
Put them under the TV cameras and out of sight.
Post by: Nev on March 07, 2024, 07:56:51 AM
Post by: JD on March 07, 2024, 07:57:04 AM
This could be yours for £2500 per person for the wolves game - only game still available this season.
https://www.mancity.com/hospitality/autograph?_gl=1*e3jgo5*_ga*MjA1NzE1MTM0Ni4xNzA5NzUxMzgy*_ga_83D496C6PL*MTcwOTc1MTM4Mi4xLjEuMTcwOTc1MTU3Ni41MC4wLjA.*_ga_QFRL9KTV4P*MTcwOTc1MTM4Mi4xLjEuMTcwOTc1MTU3Ni42MC4wLjA.
That's a lot of money to meet Paul Dickov.
Post by: tomd2103 on March 07, 2024, 08:39:28 AM
I read somewhere that the types that do the corporate thing tend to prefer seats to the side of the pitch rather than behind the goal. This made me wonder whether the club were planning on doing a major rebuild with the Doug Ellis Stand before the North Stand (one that might require moving the road and purchasing of properties behind it). But then Dante's post about companies buying the tickets as a tax write-off rather than individuals makes a lot of sense, and makes me wonder a side-view or a behind-goal view really matter that much if you have the padded seats, five-course meal, free bar and haven't pulled the wedge from your own pockets.
I still don't think we're going to move though. Heck saying the original plan seemed to be "too much, too soon", as well as his assertion from the same interview that he "loves history" is enough to convince me of this.
Are we really trusting anything that comes out of Heck's mouth at this point?
Post by: Villan82 on March 07, 2024, 08:48:38 AM
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 09:05:53 AM
On that, assuming Ads is right in thinking it is a new stadium, how do we feel about Heck being the person in charge of that given what we have seen with the badge and the AV150 thing?!Why would you think ADS is right when a poster has heard directly from club's new head of Strategy and Analytics that one of the reasons the North Stand development got canned was their concern that they would not be able to sell enough premium seats?
If they're binning a development that could transform our potential within two years because they don't think enough people have signed up to pay 60-70% more than standard ticket price for access to a purple concourse with neon lights, what makes you think they're planning to blow £1b on a new stadium?
Post by: Villan82 on March 07, 2024, 09:12:42 AM
On that, assuming Ads is right in thinking it is a new stadium, how do we feel about Heck being the person in charge of that given what we have seen with the badge and the AV150 thing?!Why would you think ADS is right when a poster has heard directly from club's new head of Strategy and Analytics that one of the reasons the North Stand development got canned was their concern that they would not be able to sell enough premium seats?
If they're binning a development that could transform our potential within two years because they don't think enough people have signed up to pay 60-70% more than standard ticket price for access to a purple concourse with neon lights, what makes you think they're planning to blow £1b on a new stadium?
Sorry mate. To clarify, I think they aren't building a new stadium and I am basing this off the very post you refer to.
But until I read that post I wasn't sure as the new investment, heck's background, the Birmingham Mail debate had led me to think it could be on the cards.
Why we are standing still is beyond me though, these people are surely smarter than and see that standing still is like tying an anchor to this club.
Post by: LeeS on March 07, 2024, 09:19:59 AM
A side-on view is miles better than behind the goals, not even close. Especially for the profile of people who use those corporate seats, who just want it to look exactly like it does when they're watching it on telly.
That's a bit of a stereotype. Every time I've been to a sporting event on corporate I've only ever been there with people who really enjoy the sport. People who aren't into football don't bother giving up their spare time (weekends especially) for a couple of free beers, a plate of sarnies and some boring business chat. Your point about the difference in view from behind or the side is spot on though. I've always had my STs on the half way line for a good reason.
Post by: Mister E on March 07, 2024, 09:31:35 AM
There's a logic in what you say, Chris.On that, assuming Ads is right in thinking it is a new stadium, how do we feel about Heck being the person in charge of that given what we have seen with the badge and the AV150 thing?!Why would you think ADS is right when a poster has heard directly from club's new head of Strategy and Analytics that one of the reasons the North Stand development got canned was their concern that they would not be able to sell enough premium seats?
If they're binning a development that could transform our potential within two years because they don't think enough people have signed up to pay 60-70% more than standard ticket price for access to a purple concourse with neon lights, what makes you think they're planning to blow £1b on a new stadium?
However, I've been considering the context from which Heck has come: his experience (along with that of Edens) is likely to be of new-build, multi-purpose arenas targeting corporate customers, merchandise-sales maximisation and with excellent access for quick arrival / departure. His thinking is therefore likely to have been pretty much set soon after arriving here: the stadium is not fit for the purpose of maximising revenue; all that he's done since arriving has been to 'make-do-and-mend'.
With the introduction of the new investors - with their stadium-development expertise - I can see them (Heck and the new investors) making a compelling case to the owners and the local authorities for a new-build: get what we can from VP whilst building a new place somewhere linked to HS2.
The gamble is: if they can assure themselves of good European competition and high Premier League placings for the next few years, the revenue will grow during the new build and then hit warp-drive after we've moved. If they can identify a site which the planning authorities and local councils see as 'easy to approve', it could be done in 5 years (it's taken Everton - what? - 3 years following planning-approval).
I look at Wham and their move to the Olympic stadium: they seem to have almost doubled their attendance compared with Upton Park, just by moving to a more accessible stadium with better services. And - yes - it's in the Capital, but they're hardly the most successful team in the area. Citeh have done likewise (albeit with the success to bring in new fans). Even places like 'uddersfield, Derby and Bolton have - I suspect - improved their revenues (and probably attendances) from having built new stadia over the last 25-30 years.
There is a question in my mind about how much VP would be worth if sold and to what purpose it would be put subsequently, and I'm not necessarily arguing for a new stadium from a personal perspective, but I can see it happening at our club.
Post by: Risso on March 07, 2024, 09:47:14 AM
There's a logic in what you say, Chris.On that, assuming Ads is right in thinking it is a new stadium, how do we feel about Heck being the person in charge of that given what we have seen with the badge and the AV150 thing?!Why would you think ADS is right when a poster has heard directly from club's new head of Strategy and Analytics that one of the reasons the North Stand development got canned was their concern that they would not be able to sell enough premium seats?
If they're binning a development that could transform our potential within two years because they don't think enough people have signed up to pay 60-70% more than standard ticket price for access to a purple concourse with neon lights, what makes you think they're planning to blow £1b on a new stadium?
However, I've been considering the context from which Heck has come: his experience (along with that of Edens) is likely to be of new-build, multi-purpose arenas targeting corporate customers, merchandise-sales maximisation and with excellent access for quick arrival / departure. His thinking is therefore likely to have been pretty much set soon after arriving here: the stadium is not fit for the purpose of maximising revenue; all that he's done since arriving has been to 'make-do-and-mend'.
With the introduction of the new investors - with their stadium-development expertise - I can see them (Heck and the new investors) making a compelling case to the owners and the local authorities for a new-build: get what we can from VP whilst building a new place somewhere linked to HS2.
The gamble is: if they can assure themselves of good European competition and high Premier League placings for the next few years, the revenue will grow during the new build and then hit warp-drive after we've moved. If they can identify a site which the planning authorities and local councils see as 'easy to approve', it could be done in 5 years (it's taken Everton - what? - 3 years following planning-approval).
I look at Wham and their move to the Olympic stadium: they seem to have almost doubled their attendance compared with Upton Park, just by moving to a more accessible stadium with better services. And - yes - it's in the Capital, but they're hardly the most successful team in the area. Citeh have done likewise (albeit with the success to bring in new fans). Even places like 'uddersfield, Derby and Bolton have - I suspect - improved their revenues (and probably attendances) from having built new stadia over the last 25-30 years.
There is a question in my mind about how much VP would be worth if sold and to what purpose it would be put subsequently, and I'm not necessarily arguing for a new stadium from a personal perspective, but I can see it happening at our club.
The site at Bramley-Moore Dock was first agreed as the favoured site in January 2017, 7 years ago. If everything goes to plan, they're going to use it from Aug 2025, 8 and a ½ years later. That's the realistic time frame for a new stadium when you take in site identification, compulsory purchase orders, public consultations, having plans drawn, gaining planning permission, and then building. Especially in an area as congested as Birmingham, it's not going to be easy. We haven't even mentioned the possibility of a site yet, and Everton were looking for years before that. We'd be looking at 2032 at the earliest, if we were starting now, which we're not.
Post by: LeeB on March 07, 2024, 09:52:29 AM
There's a logic in what you say, Chris.On that, assuming Ads is right in thinking it is a new stadium, how do we feel about Heck being the person in charge of that given what we have seen with the badge and the AV150 thing?!Why would you think ADS is right when a poster has heard directly from club's new head of Strategy and Analytics that one of the reasons the North Stand development got canned was their concern that they would not be able to sell enough premium seats?
If they're binning a development that could transform our potential within two years because they don't think enough people have signed up to pay 60-70% more than standard ticket price for access to a purple concourse with neon lights, what makes you think they're planning to blow £1b on a new stadium?
However, I've been considering the context from which Heck has come: his experience (along with that of Edens) is likely to be of new-build, multi-purpose arenas targeting corporate customers, merchandise-sales maximisation and with excellent access for quick arrival / departure. His thinking is therefore likely to have been pretty much set soon after arriving here: the stadium is not fit for the purpose of maximising revenue; all that he's done since arriving has been to 'make-do-and-mend'.
With the introduction of the new investors - with their stadium-development expertise - I can see them (Heck and the new investors) making a compelling case to the owners and the local authorities for a new-build: get what we can from VP whilst building a new place somewhere linked to HS2.
The gamble is: if they can assure themselves of good European competition and high Premier League placings for the next few years, the revenue will grow during the new build and then hit warp-drive after we've moved. If they can identify a site which the planning authorities and local councils see as 'easy to approve', it could be done in 5 years (it's taken Everton - what? - 3 years following planning-approval).
I look at Wham and their move to the Olympic stadium: they seem to have almost doubled their attendance compared with Upton Park, just by moving to a more accessible stadium with better services. And - yes - it's in the Capital, but they're hardly the most successful team in the area. Citeh have done likewise (albeit with the success to bring in new fans). Even places like 'uddersfield, Derby and Bolton have - I suspect - improved their revenues (and probably attendances) from having built new stadia over the last 25-30 years.
There is a question in my mind about how much VP would be worth if sold and to what purpose it would be put subsequently, and I'm not necessarily arguing for a new stadium from a personal perspective, but I can see it happening at our club.
The site at Bramley-Moore Dock was first agreed as the favoured site in January 2017, 7 years ago. If everything goes to plan, they're going to use it from Aug 2025, 8 and a ½ years later. That's the realistic time frame for a new stadium when you take in site identification, compulsory purchase orders, public consultations, having plans drawn, gaining planning permission, and then building. Especially in an area as congested as Birmingham, it's not going to be easy. We haven't even mentioned the possibility of a site yet, and Everton were looking for years before that. We'd be looking at 2032 at the earliest, if we were starting now, which we're not.
They had at least another two sites I think in proposal, one of them where the Echo arena now is before that as well, I think the whole thing has been 20 odd years in total.
Post by: Villan82 on March 07, 2024, 09:54:28 AM
In theory, as we sit in the top four right now, we could have had the new stand already half built if we had been able to stick with the original plan. Instead we look set to keep with a stand that is simply inadequate.
And in the unlikely event they really are concerned about demand, do they not see that operating with a reduced capacity while it is built will mean there is a pent up demand ready for when it is finished and that would probably guarantee it sells out for a year or two regardless of how things are going.
These are just poor decisions. Simple as.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 09:55:41 AM
Post by: Risso on March 07, 2024, 10:13:55 AM
They had at least another two sites I think in proposal, one of them where the Echo arena now is before that as well, I think the whole thing has been 20 odd years in total.
Very true, the plan was going to be Kirkby for a long time, just off the M57/East Lancs road. And if you think the area around Goodison is bad, you've obviously never been to Kirkby or Knowsley! Christ. The firm I worked for had clients there, and you absolutely dreaded going out to that neck of the woods. Once client was a newspaper distributor for the Liverpool area, and so carried a large amount of cash. They had at least 3 armed robbery attempts that I knew of, including one where one of the directors was actually shot at in his car.
Post by: Chris Harte on March 07, 2024, 10:16:24 AM
You're possibly right, but if we are going to build.a new stadium then you have to wonder how big it would be. If Heck was thinking we can be more ambitious then why didn't he say so? It's a good look that would appease the fans. Instead, he said it's too much too soon, which has irritated/confused the fan base.I read somewhere that the types that do the corporate thing tend to prefer seats to the side of the pitch rather than behind the goal. This made me wonder whether the club were planning on doing a major rebuild with the Doug Ellis Stand before the North Stand (one that might require moving the road and purchasing of properties behind it). But then Dante's post about companies buying the tickets as a tax write-off rather than individuals makes a lot of sense, and makes me wonder a side-view or a behind-goal view really matter that much if you have the padded seats, five-course meal, free bar and haven't pulled the wedge from your own pockets.
I still don't think we're going to move though. Heck saying the original plan seemed to be "too much, too soon", as well as his assertion from the same interview that he "loves history" is enough to convince me of this.
Are we really trusting anything that comes out of Heck's mouth at this point?
Given that saying "we're cancelling the North Stand because we can go bigger and better" would have been the thing to say new stadium, why did he say "too much, too soon "? It points to either a lack of foresight or a reaction to the LG/TV. It doesn't say new stadium to me.
Post by: LeeB on March 07, 2024, 10:18:40 AM
They had at least another two sites I think in proposal, one of them where the Echo arena now is before that as well, I think the whole thing has been 20 odd years in total.
Very true, the plan was going to be Kirkby for a long time, just off the M57/East Lancs road. And if you think the area around Goodison is bad, you've obviously never been to Kirkby or Knowsley! Christ. The firm I worked for had clients there, and you absolutely dreaded going out to that neck of the woods. Once client was a newspaper distributor for the Liverpool area, and so carried a large amount of cash. They had at least 3 armed robbery attempts that I knew of, including one where one of the directors was actually shot at in his car.
I have been to those areas when fitting comms at Merseytravel sites, I think the closest thing I've seen elsewhere was in Mad Max. We had a internal memo at the time to be on guard near the remote data sites as two lads had been followed into one and tied up while they stripped it.
Post by: Gareth on March 07, 2024, 10:29:54 AM
If it was explained properly a lot of the gnashing of teeth over the decision might have been avoided.
I’m still convinced the season ticket prices increases are going to be comfortably double figures % increases across the board with more marginalising of senior concessions as they will be the lowest ticket price/matchday spend category
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 07, 2024, 10:40:04 AM
You're possibly right, but if we are going to build.a new stadium then you have to wonder how big it would be. If Heck was thinking we can be more ambitious then why didn't he say so? It's a good look that would appease the fans. Instead, he said it's too much too soon, which has irritated/confused the fan base.I read somewhere that the types that do the corporate thing tend to prefer seats to the side of the pitch rather than behind the goal. This made me wonder whether the club were planning on doing a major rebuild with the Doug Ellis Stand before the North Stand (one that might require moving the road and purchasing of properties behind it). But then Dante's post about companies buying the tickets as a tax write-off rather than individuals makes a lot of sense, and makes me wonder a side-view or a behind-goal view really matter that much if you have the padded seats, five-course meal, free bar and haven't pulled the wedge from your own pockets.
I still don't think we're going to move though. Heck saying the original plan seemed to be "too much, too soon", as well as his assertion from the same interview that he "loves history" is enough to convince me of this.
Are we really trusting anything that comes out of Heck's mouth at this point?
Given that saying "we're cancelling the North Stand because we can go bigger and better" would have been the thing to say new stadium, why did he say "too much, too soon "? It points to either a lack of foresight or a reaction to the LG/TV. It doesn't say new stadium to me.
I think the reason he didn't say any more was because he didn't need to.
If he'd said "we're looking at a new stadium", imagine the sort of distraction and kerfuffle that would have released.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 07, 2024, 10:52:11 AM
Post by: DB on March 07, 2024, 10:54:40 AM
Liverpool are scrapping new senior concessions from 2025 and what one club does...
Just posted on the FFP thread...Spuds doing same next season and STs going up by 6%.
Post by: Nev on March 07, 2024, 11:33:24 AM
I've said before, the likes of me and many on here are not welcome. Dedicated and unwavering support is absolutely worthless (until the bad times inevitably come 'round again), it's all about pounds per head.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 11:39:58 AM
I never envisaged myself as a Villa Park regular as an old man, not because I wouldn't want to go and ill health aside, I just believe that by the time I reach that age (65+) the cost will be too prohibitive and the place will not be the same (if we're still there).
I've said before, the likes of me and many on here are not welcome. Dedicated and unwavering support is absolutely worthless (until the bad times inevitably come 'round again), it's all about pounds per head.
Heck does seem to be something of a fathead.
Post by: Chris Harte on March 07, 2024, 12:45:09 PM
I think the reaction to his announcement suggests that he did need to say more. Not necessarily something as overt as "new stadium", but if he'd said we're looking bigger/better I think the reaction would have been less negative than it has been.You're possibly right, but if we are going to build.a new stadium then you have to wonder how big it would be. If Heck was thinking we can be more ambitious then why didn't he say so? It's a good look that would appease the fans. Instead, he said it's too much too soon, which has irritated/confused the fan base.I read somewhere that the types that do the corporate thing tend to prefer seats to the side of the pitch rather than behind the goal. This made me wonder whether the club were planning on doing a major rebuild with the Doug Ellis Stand before the North Stand (one that might require moving the road and purchasing of properties behind it). But then Dante's post about companies buying the tickets as a tax write-off rather than individuals makes a lot of sense, and makes me wonder a side-view or a behind-goal view really matter that much if you have the padded seats, five-course meal, free bar and haven't pulled the wedge from your own pockets.
I still don't think we're going to move though. Heck saying the original plan seemed to be "too much, too soon", as well as his assertion from the same interview that he "loves history" is enough to convince me of this.
Are we really trusting anything that comes out of Heck's mouth at this point?
Given that saying "we're cancelling the North Stand because we can go bigger and better" would have been the thing to say new stadium, why did he say "too much, too soon "? It points to either a lack of foresight or a reaction to the LG/TV. It doesn't say new stadium to me.
I think the reason he didn't say any more was because he didn't need to.
If he'd said "we're looking at a new stadium", imagine the sort of distraction and kerfuffle that would have released.
Let's face it, if anyone here thinks scrapping the North Stand redevelopment is a good idea then they're being rather quiet about it.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 12:53:16 PM
He can't really say "it's been canned because you ****** won't pay for 'free' hotdogs and chips" either.
All he can really do is give some flannel about the timing, which is exactly what he did.
Post by: Chris Harte on March 07, 2024, 12:56:25 PM
He can't say "we're looking bigger/better" because we're not.Yet plenty of people seem to me (unless I've misread it, and that's quite possible) to think we're going to move to a new stadium or completely rebuild Villa Park.
Post by: Villan82 on March 07, 2024, 01:00:47 PM
I think the reaction to his announcement suggests that he did need to say more. Not necessarily something as overt as "new stadium", but if he'd said we're looking bigger/better I think the reaction would have been less negative than it has been.You're possibly right, but if we are going to build.a new stadium then you have to wonder how big it would be. If Heck was thinking we can be more ambitious then why didn't he say so? It's a good look that would appease the fans. Instead, he said it's too much too soon, which has irritated/confused the fan base.I read somewhere that the types that do the corporate thing tend to prefer seats to the side of the pitch rather than behind the goal. This made me wonder whether the club were planning on doing a major rebuild with the Doug Ellis Stand before the North Stand (one that might require moving the road and purchasing of properties behind it). But then Dante's post about companies buying the tickets as a tax write-off rather than individuals makes a lot of sense, and makes me wonder a side-view or a behind-goal view really matter that much if you have the padded seats, five-course meal, free bar and haven't pulled the wedge from your own pockets.
I still don't think we're going to move though. Heck saying the original plan seemed to be "too much, too soon", as well as his assertion from the same interview that he "loves history" is enough to convince me of this.
Are we really trusting anything that comes out of Heck's mouth at this point?
Given that saying "we're cancelling the North Stand because we can go bigger and better" would have been the thing to say new stadium, why did he say "too much, too soon "? It points to either a lack of foresight or a reaction to the LG/TV. It doesn't say new stadium to me.
I think the reason he didn't say any more was because he didn't need to.
If he'd said "we're looking at a new stadium", imagine the sort of distraction and kerfuffle that would have released.
Let's face it, if anyone here thinks scrapping the North Stand redevelopment is a good idea then they're being rather quiet about it.
Surveying other bits of the Villa Internet you can see plenty of people have swallowed Heck's B.S and are saying it is the right decision! Some give the impression they'd take an actual bullet for Heck!
I even saw people on twitter saying Uefa probably wouldn't let us play if the North Stand was a construction site which to me is a very mangled interpretation of what heck said while ignoring the fact Liverpool have done precisely that for the past number of years.
Post by: eamonn on March 07, 2024, 01:16:57 PM
A side-on view is miles better than behind the goals, not even close. Especially for the profile of people who use those corporate seats, who just want it to look exactly like it does when they're watching it on telly.
That's a bit of a stereotype. Every time I've been to a sporting event on corporate I've only ever been there with people who really enjoy the sport. People who aren't into football don't bother giving up their spare time (weekends especially) for a couple of free beers, a plate of sarnies and some boring business chat. Your point about the difference in view from behind or the side is spot on though. I've always had my STs on the half way line for a good reason.
I thought you were a North Stand fella?
Post by: aev on March 07, 2024, 01:26:49 PM
He can't say "we're looking bigger/better" because we're not.Yet plenty of people seem to me (unless I've misread it, and that's quite possible) to think we're going to move to a new stadium or completely rebuild Villa Park.
I do.
Otherwise I don't understand the new investment.
Post by: LeeB on March 07, 2024, 01:48:32 PM
A side-on view is miles better than behind the goals, not even close. Especially for the profile of people who use those corporate seats, who just want it to look exactly like it does when they're watching it on telly.
That's a bit of a stereotype. Every time I've been to a sporting event on corporate I've only ever been there with people who really enjoy the sport. People who aren't into football don't bother giving up their spare time (weekends especially) for a couple of free beers, a plate of sarnies and some boring business chat. Your point about the difference in view from behind or the side is spot on though. I've always had my STs on the half way line for a good reason.
I thought you were a North Stand fella?
That's me.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 01:50:15 PM
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2024, 02:16:31 PM
He can't say "we're looking bigger/better" because we're not.Yet plenty of people seem to me (unless I've misread it, and that's quite possible) to think we're going to move to a new stadium or completely rebuild Villa Park.
I do.
Otherwise I don't understand the new investment.
Yep, take away the comcast investment and I'd be much more willing to accept that they've just decided they can't be bothered with it.
That investment makes me think that it was more about taking a pause to be sure we're not backing ourselves against a wall with an investment that makes it harder for us to get where we want to be in the long run.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 02:27:08 PM
Post by: Risso on March 07, 2024, 02:45:33 PM
If finding space for a new ground is the plan, then finding an even bigger area to accommodate all that in the Birmingham area is going to be even harder and more time consuming.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 02:48:50 PM
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 03:02:52 PM
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 03:07:34 PM
The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Post by: Chris Smith on March 07, 2024, 03:10:47 PM
Post by: LeeS on March 07, 2024, 03:11:22 PM
A side-on view is miles better than behind the goals, not even close. Especially for the profile of people who use those corporate seats, who just want it to look exactly like it does when they're watching it on telly.
That's a bit of a stereotype. Every time I've been to a sporting event on corporate I've only ever been there with people who really enjoy the sport. People who aren't into football don't bother giving up their spare time (weekends especially) for a couple of free beers, a plate of sarnies and some boring business chat. Your point about the difference in view from behind or the side is spot on though. I've always had my STs on the half way line for a good reason.
I thought you were a North Stand fella?
How very dare you!
(its actually years since I had a ST so I cant claim to be anything anymore)
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 03:33:09 PM
If the investment allows the owners to give Emery enough backing to establish ourselves as a top 4 side then the increase in value of the club would dwarf the £100m investment in the North stand.The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Surely it's relative peanuts in the context of the global sums being invested and the potential upside of a club establishing itself in the CL?
Post by: rob_bridge on March 07, 2024, 03:50:59 PM
I keep coming back to transport infrastructure on this. We’re already struggling with getting fans away from Aston after the game if we add another few thousand more fans then it would be gridlock and make the match day experience worse for everyone. They need to improve the public transport offering, find more car parking spaces and develop ways to stagger departure from the area post match alongside the development and other than Witton station upgrade I don’t think this has been fully addressed.
Totally agree Chris I am able to get to 3 or 4 games a season nowadays . When the crowds under Lambert and prior in the low to mid 30ks it was fine. The extra 6 or 7k now every game makes a huge difference. If we added another 7k with North Stand refurb it would be carnage without significant transport upgrades.
Post by: Villan82 on March 07, 2024, 03:54:48 PM
f there was a green field site somewhere beside two railway stations we'd be saying 'build it there'!
We actually have a good site if we could only be clever with how it is used.
Post by: rob_bridge on March 07, 2024, 04:02:47 PM
How did the ground cope in the past when it had in excess of 50,000?
f there was a green field site somewhere beside two railway stations we'd be saying 'build it there'!
We actually have a good site if we could only be clever with how it is used.
Not being funny but wasn't that about 50 years ago. I remember big crowds and long waits for the 11C in 1990s but not the traffic gridlock.
I assume as more people travel further as middle aged people have been more socially mobile, more people travel to Villa Park by car and more homes in the vicinity own more cars then there is more logjams.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 04:06:58 PM
If the investment allows the owners to give Emery enough backing to establish ourselves as a top 4 side then the increase in value of the club would dwarf the £100m investment in the North stand.The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Surely it's relative peanuts in the context of the global sums being invested and the potential upside of a club establishing itself in the CL?
Maybe you're right, but I can't see it. There are so many other, better, quicker ways to make a return on £100m than an under-achieving football club. And why us? And for us, why them? It doesn't add up unless there's something afoot.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 04:15:39 PM
I think we're talking at slightly cross purposes here.If the investment allows the owners to give Emery enough backing to establish ourselves as a top 4 side then the increase in value of the club would dwarf the £100m investment in the North stand.The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Surely it's relative peanuts in the context of the global sums being invested and the potential upside of a club establishing itself in the CL?
Maybe you're right, but I can't see it. There are so many other, better, quicker ways to make a return on £100m than an under-achieving football club. And why us? And for us, why them? It doesn't add up unless there's something afoot.
I was giving reasons why I thought a £100m investment in the NS could (in theory) give a major return in terms of success and club value - and hence why I think the club are being daft by deferring it. You are commenting more specifically about why the identity of our new investors would indicate a new stadium in due course is more likely and you certainly may have a point.
Post by: PeterWithe on March 07, 2024, 04:17:00 PM
I keep coming back to transport infrastructure on this. We’re already struggling with getting fans away from Aston after the game if we add another few thousand more fans then it would be gridlock and make the match day experience worse for everyone. They need to improve the public transport offering, find more car parking spaces and develop ways to stagger departure from the area post match alongside the development and other than Witton station upgrade I don’t think this has been fully addressed.
I went past Anfield the other day, on the face of it they seem to have exactly the same issues as us, houses all around, a short distance to arterial roads, no tram and, as far as I could see no train station close by either. And a fair walk back to the city.
It doesn't seem to have stopped them increasing the size of the ground.
I'd guess that our owners didn't get to be billionaires by thinking 'that looks a bit hard, lets not bother'
Post by: The Man With A Stick on March 07, 2024, 04:17:18 PM
I keep coming back to transport infrastructure on this. We’re already struggling with getting fans away from Aston after the game if we add another few thousand more fans then it would be gridlock and make the match day experience worse for everyone. They need to improve the public transport offering, find more car parking spaces and develop ways to stagger departure from the area post match alongside the development and other than Witton station upgrade I don’t think this has been fully addressed.
There was talk towards the end of last season that they'd be speaking with local businesses about opening up their empty car parks for use on match days, did anything ever come of that? Bet there's shitloads of spaces available within a 2 mile radius and those companies could make a killing out of it.
Post by: eamonn on March 07, 2024, 04:29:38 PM
I keep coming back to transport infrastructure on this. We’re already struggling with getting fans away from Aston after the game if we add another few thousand more fans then it would be gridlock and make the match day experience worse for everyone. They need to improve the public transport offering, find more car parking spaces and develop ways to stagger departure from the area post match alongside the development and other than Witton station upgrade I don’t think this has been fully addressed.
I went past Anfield the other day, on the face of it they seem to have exactly the same issues as us, houses all around, a short distance to arterial roads, no tram and, as far as I could see no train station close by either. And a fair walk back to the city.
It doesn't seem to have stopped them increasing the size of the ground.
I'd guess that our owners didn't get to be billionaires by thinking 'that looks a bit hard, lets not bother'
I would hope that Heck isn't of the "Fuck the local residents and community, we'll buy every house we need to rebuild" mentality that Liverpool had, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is.
Post by: Gareth on March 07, 2024, 04:44:34 PM
How did the ground cope in the past when it had in excess of 50,000?
f there was a green field site somewhere beside two railway stations we'd be saying 'build it there'!
We actually have a good site if we could only be clever with how it is used.
Not being funny but wasn't that about 50 years ago. I remember big crowds and long waits for the 11C in 1990s but not the traffic gridlock.
I assume as more people travel further as middle aged people have been more socially mobile, more people travel to Villa Park by car and more homes in the vicinity own more cars then there is more logjams.
Exactly and 15 years ago we had the Leisure Centre car park that must have held over a thousand cars…you parked on it knowing it was an hour to get off most games
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2024, 04:47:53 PM
If the investment allows the owners to give Emery enough backing to establish ourselves as a top 4 side then the increase in value of the club would dwarf the £100m investment in the North stand.The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Surely it's relative peanuts in the context of the global sums being invested and the potential upside of a club establishing itself in the CL?
but would just the revamped North stand do that? and if not would it make it easier or harder to take the next steps that do?
If we were to build the new North and then maximise things as best we can elsewhere and it led to a £15m per year boost in matchday revenue would that be enough? If the alternative solution takes longer but means £30-40m on matchday and £20-30m a year from other use then is it viable to plan for the alternative whilst carrying on with the original short term plan?
I have no idea what the plans are, same as everyone else on here, but I can see them looking at those sort of scenarios and deciding that what they had planned was a waste of time and money because the long-term outcome wouldn't be enough to make a real difference.
Post by: SamTheMouse on March 07, 2024, 04:52:32 PM
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Post by: aev on March 07, 2024, 04:56:20 PM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Agree, unless the owners just fancied taking some money out.
VP should be good for transport, but clearly isn't at present. And keeping fans in and around the ground to spend cash doesn't seem to work either.
I think perhaps a new site with multi use makes sense, certainly when looking at who the new investors are. Where that is I have no idea...
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 07, 2024, 05:01:15 PM
I think we're talking at slightly cross purposes here.If the investment allows the owners to give Emery enough backing to establish ourselves as a top 4 side then the increase in value of the club would dwarf the £100m investment in the North stand.The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Surely it's relative peanuts in the context of the global sums being invested and the potential upside of a club establishing itself in the CL?
Maybe you're right, but I can't see it. There are so many other, better, quicker ways to make a return on £100m than an under-achieving football club. And why us? And for us, why them? It doesn't add up unless there's something afoot.
I was giving reasons why I thought a £100m investment in the NS could (in theory) give a major return in terms of success and club value - and hence why I think the club are being daft by deferring it. You are commenting more specifically about why the identity of our new investors would indicate a new stadium in due course is more likely and you certainly may have a point.
Ah, yes we are!
I did think you were being mental! Wink.
Post by: chrisw1 on March 07, 2024, 05:11:29 PM
No it wouldn't make us competitive in revenue with Spurs, Man City, Liverpool etc. But, bearing in mind it would have been very hospitality heavy, it might just have bridged the gap sufficiently to give us enough FFP room for Emery to build an established CL team and keep ahead of the likes of Newcastle and Everton. If he did that I think club value wise it would have been £100m well spent, whether we move in 10 years or not.If the investment allows the owners to give Emery enough backing to establish ourselves as a top 4 side then the increase in value of the club would dwarf the £100m investment in the North stand.The return on investing in the North stand, beginning work last summer would have been the ability to back an elite manger here and now, increasing our chances of establishing the club as a Top 4 team for years to come and all the wealth and growth that brings. Surely that alone would have been worth the £100m investment?
The alternative is gamble that we can defy all odds and punch massively above our weight for another 10 years whilst a new ground gets sorted.
You're looking at it from a Villa perspective. What's in it for them if we're just staying put and no significant infrastructure developments will be taking place? If it's 'just' an investment, £100m is a lot of money to spend hoping a football team slightly improves. There's no return for them there.
Surely it's relative peanuts in the context of the global sums being invested and the potential upside of a club establishing itself in the CL?
but would just the revamped North stand do that? and if not would it make it easier or harder to take the next steps that do?
If we were to build the new North and then maximise things as best we can elsewhere and it led to a £15m per year boost in matchday revenue would that be enough? If the alternative solution takes longer but means £30-40m on matchday and £20-30m a year from other use then is it viable to plan for the alternative whilst carrying on with the original short term plan?
I have no idea what the plans are, same as everyone else on here, but I can see them looking at those sort of scenarios and deciding that what they had planned was a waste of time and money because the long-term outcome wouldn't be enough to make a real difference.
It's all speculation of course, we may fall away anyway. But if I was the owners I'd do everything in my power to back the generational manager we appear to have here and now, not start again in the next decade when 8 clubs will have had a 10 year run of having at least 10k more seats than us.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 07, 2024, 05:11:46 PM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Agree, the owners just fancied taking some money out.
VP should be good for transport, but clearly isn't at present. And keeping fans in and around the ground to spend cash doesn't seem to work either.
I think perhaps a new site with multi use makes sense, certainly when looking at who the new investors are. Where that is I have no idea...
How have they taken money out? They’ve poured it in.
Post by: Nev on March 07, 2024, 05:39:56 PM
Post by: aev on March 07, 2024, 05:40:50 PM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Agree, the owners just fancied taking some money out.
VP should be good for transport, but clearly isn't at present. And keeping fans in and around the ground to spend cash doesn't seem to work either.
I think perhaps a new site with multi use makes sense, certainly when looking at who the new investors are. Where that is I have no idea...
How have they taken money out? They’ve poured it in.
Yes sorry, I missed out the “unless” (which I don’t think is why the new lot invested anyway).
Post by: FatSam on March 07, 2024, 05:58:00 PM
How did the ground cope in the past when it had in excess of 50,000?My understanding is that the population density of the area around Villa Park has gradually reduced (especially where affected by the Aston Expressway and Newtown Middleway), so there are fewer people living within walking distance of the ground. There was also previously an extensive team network connecting Perry Barr and Witton with the city centre.
Also, whilst our record attendances are considerably higher than our current capacity, these were always outliers, and our highest average attendances from the late 1940s are only a few thousand more than we are currently achieving.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 07, 2024, 06:14:48 PM
How did the ground cope in the past when it had in excess of 50,000?My understanding is that the population density of the area around Villa Park has gradually reduced (especially where affected by the Aston Expressway and Newtown Middleway), so there are fewer people living within walking distance of the ground. There was also previously an extensive team network connecting Perry Barr and Witton with the city centre.
Also, whilst our record attendances are considerably higher than our current capacity, these were always outliers, and our highest average attendances from the late 1940s are only a few thousand more than we are currently achieving.
I remember as a kid in the 70s when we went to matches, you used to see way, way more people walking there, and from further away than you do these days.
Post by: Risso on March 07, 2024, 06:24:25 PM
How did the ground cope in the past when it had in excess of 50,000?My understanding is that the population density of the area around Villa Park has gradually reduced (especially where affected by the Aston Expressway and Newtown Middleway), so there are fewer people living within walking distance of the ground. There was also previously an extensive team network connecting Perry Barr and Witton with the city centre.
Also, whilst our record attendances are considerably higher than our current capacity, these were always outliers, and our highest average attendances from the late 1940s are only a few thousand more than we are currently achieving.
I remember as a kid in the 70s when we went to matches, you used to see way, way more people walking there, and from further away than you do these days.
There must be 4 or 5 times the number of cars on the road now compared to back then.
Post by: Richard E on March 07, 2024, 06:26:13 PM
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on March 07, 2024, 06:40:48 PM
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 07, 2024, 07:09:19 PM
Until we know the answer it is sensible to pause any plans and not disclose too much to the fans.
Possibly I’m giving Heck too much credit but I doubt he was appointed with continuity and business as usual in mind.
Post by: IFWaters on March 07, 2024, 07:40:16 PM
I suspect they’re canvassing the council/government to check whether there’s a chunk of HS3 land in the city centre that is suddenly available for a regeneration scheme with Villa as the catalyst for that change. We’d be daft, almost negligent, not to be asking that question.HS2
Until we know the answer it is sensible to pause any plans and not disclose too much to the fans.
Possibly I’m giving Heck too much credit but I doubt he was appointed with continuity and business as usual in mind.
Post by: DB on March 07, 2024, 07:49:06 PM
Post by: Des Little on March 07, 2024, 07:59:29 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 07, 2024, 08:05:03 PM
I really can’t see how they’d be in a position to announce anything, given that 6 months ago we were still looking at a new North Stand.
Also if we do qualify for the CL, it would be a poor time to split the fanbase.
Post by: DB on March 07, 2024, 08:21:46 PM
Post by: PeterWithe on March 07, 2024, 08:41:16 PM
I have this feeling, that an announcement will come this summer re a new stadium.
If I owned a piece of land big enough to build a stadium on, in an area that would be attractive to Villa, my asking price would rise rather dramatically a few seconds after Villa had made any such announcement.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 07, 2024, 08:42:49 PM
I suspect they’re canvassing the council/government to check whether there’s a chunk of HS3 land in the city centre that is suddenly available for a regeneration scheme with Villa as the catalyst for that change. We’d be daft, almost negligent, not to be asking that question.HS2
Until we know the answer it is sensible to pause any plans and not disclose too much to the fans.
Possibly I’m giving Heck too much credit but I doubt he was appointed with continuity and business as usual in mind.
HS1 Paris to London (kings X not Waterloo)
HS2 London to Birmingham
HS3 Birmingham to the North West, Manchester/Leeds?
Post by: Villan82 on March 07, 2024, 10:09:28 PM
I know, just think by the summer they will have made a decision.
Villa Park is the closest thing to a red line issue I have. I have given up on the crest, do what you like Mr Heck, but Villa Park and Aston Villa are 125 years in the making and I will never forgive them if they move us from Villa Park when we already had planning permission to get it to where it should be.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 07, 2024, 10:11:00 PM
I know, just think by the summer they will have made a decision.
Villa Park is the closest thing to a red line issue I have. I have given up on the crest, do what you like Mr Heck, but Villa Park and Aston Villa are 125 years in the making and I will never forgive them if they move us from Villa Park when we already had planning permission to get it to where it should be.
I was wondering, do you rate Chris Heck?
Post by: Clampy on March 07, 2024, 10:17:14 PM
I know, just think by the summer they will have made a decision.
Villa Park is the closest thing to a red line issue I have. I have given up on the crest, do what you like Mr Heck, but Villa Park and Aston Villa are 125 years in the making and I will never forgive them if they move us from Villa Park when we already had planning permission to get it to where it should be.
I was wondering, do you rate Chris Heck?
I don't think he even realises we played tonight.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 07, 2024, 10:18:24 PM
I suspect they’re canvassing the council/government to check whether there’s a chunk of HS3 land in the city centre that is suddenly available for a regeneration scheme with Villa as the catalyst for that change. We’d be daft, almost negligent, not to be asking that question.HS2
Until we know the answer it is sensible to pause any plans and not disclose too much to the fans.
Possibly I’m giving Heck too much credit but I doubt he was appointed with continuity and business as usual in mind.
HS1 Paris to London (kings X not Waterloo)
HS2 London to Birmingham
HS3 Birmingham to the North West, Manchester/Leeds?
No, that (Birmingham-Manchester) was always HS2.
Post by: tomd2103 on March 08, 2024, 12:23:38 AM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Yep, I also think that is the case and if it is based in the city centre or the NEC, it will be built as more of a 'venue' for big events than just a football ground. NFL comes to Birmingham?
Post by: Rory on March 08, 2024, 12:33:43 AM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Yep, I also think that is the case and if it is based in the city centre or the NEC, it will be built as more of a 'venue' for big events than just a football ground. NFL comes to Birmingham?
I hope not.
Each to their own when it comes to following sports, I've even watched a couple of Super Bowls when drunk and unemployed, but I'd rather not have a bunch of 7ft meatheads tearing the shit out of our pitch, personally.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 08, 2024, 07:05:52 AM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Yep, I also think that is the case and if it is based in the city centre or the NEC, it will be built as more of a 'venue' for big events than just a football ground. NFL comes to Birmingham?
I hope not.
Each to their own when it comes to following sports, I've even watched a couple of Super Bowls when drunk and unemployed, but I'd rather not have a bunch of 7ft meatheads tearing the shit out of our pitch, personally.
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
Post by: Risso on March 08, 2024, 08:21:50 AM
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
I was walking down Piccadilly a couple of years ago on the day of whatever NFL game was being played in London. I got stopped by an American TV station to do an interview. "Hey buddy, this is KFXFM TV, who's your favourite Jets player?" "Haven't got a fucking clue, sorry." I doubt they used it.
Post by: tomd2103 on March 08, 2024, 10:02:26 AM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Yep, I also think that is the case and if it is based in the city centre or the NEC, it will be built as more of a 'venue' for big events than just a football ground. NFL comes to Birmingham?
I hope not.
Each to their own when it comes to following sports, I've even watched a couple of Super Bowls when drunk and unemployed, but I'd rather not have a bunch of 7ft meatheads tearing the shit out of our pitch, personally.
Me neither, but we are looking at it as football fans. I don't think any new build, particularly in the city centre or the NEC would be built with the intention of being a solely a football stadium. I'm guessing would be seen as a venue that would be used as much as possible, with Birmingham being a big part of that as well.
As it stands, Villa Park is the biggest stadium between London and Manchester (south and north) and the Principality Stadium to the west and nothing to the east. There is an opportunity to attract a lot of events to Birmingham and I would think that would be in the minds of those looking at the options as well.
Post by: LeeB on March 08, 2024, 10:05:34 AM
Post by: eamonn on March 08, 2024, 10:07:07 AM
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
I was walking down Piccadilly a couple of years ago on the day of whatever NFL game was being played in London. I got stopped by an American TV station to do an interview. "Hey buddy, this is KFXFM TV, who's your favourite Jets player?" "Haven't got a fucking clue, sorry." I doubt they used it.
You should add it to your showreel!
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 08, 2024, 10:09:05 AM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Yep, I also think that is the case and if it is based in the city centre or the NEC, it will be built as more of a 'venue' for big events than just a football ground. NFL comes to Birmingham?
I hope not.
Each to their own when it comes to following sports, I've even watched a couple of Super Bowls when drunk and unemployed, but I'd rather not have a bunch of 7ft meatheads tearing the shit out of our pitch, personally.
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
I've encountered similar in London on said days, thousands of them bedecked in hideous oversized NFL "merch", mispronouncing "defence", pretending they're from San Francisco rather than Stevenage, stinking of virginity.
Post by: PeterWithe on March 08, 2024, 10:14:40 AM
Post by: eamonn on March 08, 2024, 10:16:09 AM
Post by: Nev on March 08, 2024, 10:17:53 AM
Post by: FatSam on March 08, 2024, 10:43:45 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 08, 2024, 10:47:59 AM
I have no interest in NFL, but the people that I know who do all got into it when they were new parents, and were looking for something to watch in the middle of the night whilst they were looking after babies.
They should take a leaf out of Rory's book and come on here making outrageous comments if they want something to do in the middle of the night. There's no excuse for watching that shit!
Post by: tomd2103 on March 08, 2024, 10:50:01 AM
But what about the 60 million seat Girodome with retractable tiers that da bloose are going to build?
Fantasy ones drawn with crayons don't really count.
Post by: cdward on March 08, 2024, 10:56:55 AM
You're not from New York City, you're from Rotherham (Rovrum) !So get off the bandwagon...
Post by: FrankyH on March 08, 2024, 10:57:07 AM
Stephen Fry has this nailed decades ago on some TV programmem or other, ridiculing the British people who have a great desire to be American, dressing as cowboys, calling people motherfucker or asking you "did you see the 49ers last night?". They are usually accountancy clerks from Lincolnshire or some such.
Any excuse...
Post by: Risso on March 08, 2024, 12:14:14 PM
Stephen Fry has this nailed decades ago on some TV programmem or other, ridiculing the British people who have a great desire to be American, dressing as cowboys, calling people motherfucker or asking you "did you see the 49ers last night?". They are usually accountancy clerks fromLincolnshireGloucestershire or some such.
FTFY...
;)
Post by: Dave P on March 08, 2024, 12:22:06 PM
Assuming they have genuine long term ambitions for the club, there's only one reason for canning the NS redevelopment, and that's the prospect of a whole new stadium.
There's literally nothing else I can think of that makes sense.
Yep, I also think that is the case and if it is based in the city centre or the NEC, it will be built as more of a 'venue' for big events than just a football ground. NFL comes to Birmingham?
I hope not.
Each to their own when it comes to following sports, I've even watched a couple of Super Bowls when drunk and unemployed, but I'd rather not have a bunch of 7ft meatheads tearing the shit out of our pitch, personally.
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
I've encountered similar in London on said days, thousands of them bedecked in hideous oversized NFL "merch", mispronouncing "defence", pretending they're from San Francisco rather than Stevenage, stinking of virginity.
Do we all still support Cleveland Browns or has that died out now?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 08, 2024, 12:22:07 PM
Stephen Fry has this nailed decades ago on some TV programmem or other, ridiculing the British people who have a great desire to be American, dressing as cowboys, calling people motherfucker or asking you "did you see the 49ers last night?". They are usually accountancy clerks fromLincolnshireGloucestershire or some such.
FTFY...
;)
That like jazz?
Post by: Risso on March 08, 2024, 12:28:28 PM
Post by: Drummond on March 08, 2024, 12:39:25 PM
Post by: Meanwood Villa on March 08, 2024, 12:41:23 PM
Post by: LeeB on March 08, 2024, 12:41:43 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)
They could get the Albion in as well, have both of their games on a double bill as a kind of matinee. Could also use it as a akind of low level punishment for minor offenders.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 08, 2024, 12:48:52 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)
Wouldn't bother me, but I don't live (or drink) in the city.
Post by: Des Little on March 08, 2024, 12:50:31 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on March 08, 2024, 12:51:59 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)Yeah, let's have our super dome.
In Aston.
We can send in the bulldozers at their place, then tell them to go kick a bag of wind around at the Ricoh.
Post by: pablo_picasso on March 08, 2024, 12:52:21 PM
In my humble opinion, American football is a superior sport to football, definitely in how it is organised. I sometimes think the only reason I'm still interested in football is Villa. On which topic, I've never been able to have an NFL team as my team because I just can't recreate a lifetime's worth of unhealthy obsession.
I am in this camp.
I enjoy NFL as a spectacle because I have no emotional stake in the teams.
Its the same reason I enjoy non league football & football from other nations.
Post by: FatSam on March 08, 2024, 12:57:29 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)Aren't Inter and Milan both planning their own stadia away from the San Siro to improve their financial competitiveness? Being tenants of municipal stadia is one of the main things that has held back Italian clubs. Inter and Milan are obviously pretty evenly matched in terms of their size. Bayern and 1860 originally had equal shares in the Allianz Arena, but 1860 sold their share to Bayern and now play in the third tier anyway. That is probably a more relevant comparison to Villa and Blues.
Post by: tomd2103 on March 08, 2024, 01:30:00 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)
Said on here before that the only way I'd even begin to consider a move away from Villa Park would be if it was to a spectacular stadium in the city centre that would enable us to really move on as a club. Even then, I still would be uncertain.
Absolutely no to sharing with those cretins from the other side of the city though.
Post by: Risso on March 08, 2024, 01:55:42 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)
It would never happen. Nobody is going to want to build a new stadium like that, as it would make any potential sale of the club in future next to impossible. If they're going to the bother of getting external investment, those investment partners aren't going to want to buddy up with somebody else. It'd be like the ill fated experiemnt of having joint managers in charge of football teams. And that's without the reaction of fans of both clubs who'd be 100% dead against it.
Post by: Monty on March 08, 2024, 01:57:28 PM
For those who'd entertain/really want a move, how would you feel if we were to go Milan style, with a super-mega dome that we were to share (and when I say share, I mean we'd fill it for our games and they'd maybe fill a bottom tier?)
It would never happen. Nobody is going to want to build a new stadium like that, as it would make any potential sale of the club in future next to impossible. If they're going to the bother of getting external investment, those investment partners aren't going to want to buddy up with somebody else. It'd be like the ill fated experiemnt of having joint managers in charge of football teams. And that's without the reaction of fans of both clubs who'd be 100% dead against it.
Oof, this is the only time I've ever been tempted though. Not by the ground sharing, but the idea of the Villa playing in a futurist revival football cathedral...that's kinda cool.
Post by: eamonn on March 08, 2024, 02:06:58 PM
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2024, 02:51:15 PM
Lots of reasons it will never happen:
Disparity of fan bases - we'd fill it one week and then 20,000 would rattle around in it the next week
Obvious rivalries
Backwards-looking inept Council
Lack of available land in the city
Post by: Somniloquism on March 08, 2024, 03:25:50 PM
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
I was walking down Piccadilly a couple of years ago on the day of whatever NFL game was being played in London. I got stopped by an American TV station to do an interview. "Hey buddy, this is KFXFM TV, who's your favourite Jets player?" "Haven't got a fucking clue, sorry." I doubt they used it.
One of those where you could have confused them more by stating you preferred the sharks.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 08, 2024, 04:18:34 PM
Agreed. And the people. The people! I used to see them on the tube when they played at Wembley. Let's just say there will have been tens of thousands of empty single bedrooms, tens of thousands of mothers putting on their own slippers and tens of thousands of episodes of Doctor Who left unwatched on those evenings.
I was walking down Piccadilly a couple of years ago on the day of whatever NFL game was being played in London. I got stopped by an American TV station to do an interview. "Hey buddy, this is KFXFM TV, who's your favourite Jets player?" "Haven't got a fucking clue, sorry." I doubt they used it.
One of those where you could have confused them more by stating you preferred the sharks.
Or said "Bennie"
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 08, 2024, 06:23:41 PM
I was walking down Piccadilly a couple of years ago on the day of whatever NFL game was being played in London. I got stopped by an American TV station to do an interview. "Hey buddy, this is KFXFM TV, who's your favourite Jets player?" "Haven't got a fucking clue, sorry." I doubt they used it.
Strange that a Californian radio station would be asking about the Jets.
For future reference you should have said 'Broadway Joe', followed by "J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets Jets!!!"
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2024, 12:22:41 PM
Post by: pablo_picasso on March 09, 2024, 12:31:10 PM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing hard for funding to build a national stadium of the North that would be home to Man U. Sebastian Coe is now on board so the Tory boys seem to be pulling together on this one. If that happens it will mean both Manchester clubs will have stadiums built at the taxpayers expense. Andy Street needs to be shouting from the rooftops about how unfair that would be on the rest. What about a national stadium for the Midlands? We need to be vocal about this because it's something that gaining more and more traction.
Neville is on the cheerleader squad for this too. Which means that SkumSports will be the main media cheerleader for it too.
If those scumbags get a tax payer funded stadium then that will be me completely done with football.
When their new part owner is one of the richest men in the country, it's a bit of a piss take to be begging for help from taxpayers who fucking despise ManU. Ratcliffe should pay for any stadium himself if he is so fucking desperate for a new one.
Especially as they only need a new one because their current owners haven't looked after or invested properly in the massive one they currently have.
The game is already skewed towards the media & marketing favourite clubs as it is & makes the game hard to love.
I am only clinging on due to Villa...
Post by: Richard E on March 09, 2024, 12:37:29 PM
Post by: brontebilly on March 09, 2024, 12:37:46 PM
Jim Radcliffe is pushing hard for funding to build a national stadium of the North that would be home to Man U. Sebastian Coe is now on board so the Tory boys seem to be pulling together on this one. If that happens it will mean both Manchester clubs will have stadiums built at the taxpayers expense. Andy Street needs to be shouting from the rooftops about how unfair that would be on the rest. What about a national stadium for the Midlands? We need to be vocal about this because it's something that gaining more and more traction.
Neville is on the cheerleader squad for this too. Which means that SkumSports will be the main media cheerleader for it too.
If those scumbags get a tax payer funded stadium then that will be me completely done with football.
When their new part owner is one of the richest men in the country, he should pay for any new fucking stadium himself.
The game is already skewed towards the media & marketing favourite clubs as it is & makes the game hard to love.
I am only clinging on due to Villa...
National stadium of the north! Would be typical Tory scumbaggery for this to be the centre of their "levelling up" nonsense too, bailing out a chronically mismanaged club with a state funded stadium.
Post by: algy on March 09, 2024, 12:50:47 PM
The Government should announce that they accept Jim Ratcliffe’s case that there should be a nation stadium for the north, and that it will be in Leeds/Liverpool/Newcastle/Sheffield/Sunderland/Bradford. (Delete as appropriate.)Not going to happen, but it would be properly funny if they agreed on the Wembley of the North thing, then did up Hillsborough so that it could host the next series of Gladiators and be used instead of The Crucible for snooker :)
Post by: frankmosswasmyuncle on March 09, 2024, 01:09:21 PM
Thought I read on here a few days ago something along the lines of ManU have been trying to do this kind of thing for years but through Manchester (City) Council or whatever....and the response from MCC was "yep, great, we'll help as much as we can with planning/infrastructure etc but we ain't paying a penny just so you wealthy lot can have a better stadium for making even more profit; we ain't mugs".....or similar!The Government should announce that they accept Jim Ratcliffe’s case that there should be a nation stadium for the north, and that it will be in Leeds/Liverpool/Newcastle/Sheffield/Sunderland/Bradford. (Delete as appropriate.)Not going to happen, but it would be properly funny if they agreed on the Wembley of the North thing, then did up Hillsborough so that it could host the next series of Gladiators and be used instead of The Crucible for snooker :)
Post by: tomd2103 on March 09, 2024, 01:20:51 PM
For the city, a world-class city centre stadium, that hosted football every week as well as the other big global music tours and events would be brilliant.
Lots of reasons it will never happen:
Disparity of fan bases - we'd fill it one week and then 20,000 would rattle around in it the next week
Obvious rivalries
Backwards-looking inept Council
Lack of available land in the city
We don't need that lot on board to do something like that though. I'm not advocating a move at all, but having read a bit more about the financial landscape over the past few weeks than I have before, a rather sobering reality is slowly dawning.
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2024, 05:12:42 PM
Post by: IFWaters on March 10, 2024, 07:02:32 AM
Post by: Stu82 on March 10, 2024, 09:40:12 AM
Bottom line is if this or any government decides to spend a couple of billion to build a stadium for the benefit of one football club we should riot outside Parliament. They are mega rich owners of a multi billion pound organisation that is Man Utd. Not one penny of taxpayers money should be given to them under the guise of a "national stadium for the North" Radcliffe is a cheeky bastard for even having the gall to go to the government with a begging bowl when he's worth billions.
You have Nailed it, the cheeky b*******.
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 10, 2024, 10:16:31 AM
Are our owners worth more than Radcliffe? I do hope so.
Depends if you include Comcast, who through Atairos own 20%, and are worth around $200 billion. They also own Sky and it’s about time they put some editorial pressure on their football coverage IMO.
Post by: VillaTim on March 10, 2024, 10:22:17 AM
The Government should announce that they accept Jim Ratcliffe’s case that there should be a nation stadium for the north, and that it will be in Leeds/Liverpool/Newcastle/Sheffield/Sunderland/Bradford. (Delete as appropriate.)Delete them all and put Birmingham.
Post by: Richard E on March 10, 2024, 10:23:41 AM
Post by: VillaTim on March 10, 2024, 10:31:36 AM
Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Post by: AV82EC on March 10, 2024, 10:45:42 AM
Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Anyone with a working knowledge of English Geography.
Post by: Villan82 on March 10, 2024, 11:36:32 AM
Post by: IFWaters on March 10, 2024, 11:47:28 AM
Its in the midlands, the invisible bit between the home counties and Cheshire.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Anyone with a working knowledge of English Geography.
Post by: VillaTim on March 10, 2024, 11:48:28 AM
And Anyone with a working knowledge of English politics will know how that works too. The HS2 Northern terminus is Birmingham Interchange, an ideal location for a Northern Wembley.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Anyone with a working knowledge of English Geography.
(This will be a political decision nothing to do with geography. The ManUre / Radcliffe Tory element worries me but the Tories will be gone later this year, just prey they don't shoehorn it in before they go).
Post by: Chap on March 10, 2024, 12:09:02 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2024, 12:12:01 PM
(This will be a political decision nothing to do with geography. The ManUre / Radcliffe Tory element worries me but the Tories will be gone later this year, just prey they don't shoehorn it in before they go).
Just make sure you keep an eagle eye on any developments
Post by: pablo_picasso on March 10, 2024, 12:35:24 PM
Are our owners worth more than Radcliffe? I do hope so.
Depends if you include Comcast, who through Atairos own 20%, and are worth around $200 billion. They also own Sky and it’s about time they put some editorial pressure on their football coverage IMO.
They own that much?
Christ...
I did not know they had purchased so much of the club.
Sawiris & Edens are worth a combined £10.4 billion, which places the owners in the top 7 wealthiest in the world in 2024.
Its hard to get that info from these "wealthy owner lists" floating about the internet though because they either just completely ignore us, or just go for Sawiris on his own.
If Comcast own 20% & their value is £185 billion, & adding the £10.4 billion on Sawiris & Edens, then that places all of our owners as 2nd wealthiest in the world behind Jawdi Arabia.
Obviously its not as simple as that & Im not naive enough to think that those numbers mean that Villa are that wealthy, but if we are going on our owners wealth, like the media do with Newcastle, ManC, ManU, Chelsea, etc, they our owners numbers are 2nd in the world.
Be nice if Comcast did exert some pressure on Sky to do their job properly as far as we are concerned though & not just always focus on the media & marketing favourite clubs...
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2024, 12:41:44 PM
Post by: tomd2103 on March 10, 2024, 12:42:23 PM
Its in the midlands, the invisible bit between the home counties and Cheshire.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Anyone with a working knowledge of English Geography.
Annoys me when northerners call us "southerners" and southerners call us "northerners". Can't help myself telling them.that there is an area right in the middle of the country called the Midlands and we are therefore "Midlanders".
Post by: pablo_picasso on March 10, 2024, 01:36:23 PM
I'd imagine Sky's owners would want them to be as profitable as possible, rather than as fair and impartial as possible.
I would imagine they would want to protect & grow their 20% investment in Villa too, but yeah, they will most likely go for the glory hunter numbers rather than impartiality.
Post by: algy on March 10, 2024, 01:36:40 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/9Gps8KZ/great-to-see-money-which-was-supposed-to-go-on-hs2-up-north-v0-4itvb8jz1g7c1.jpg)
Post by: waynejames on March 10, 2024, 01:48:22 PM
Posted in error
Post by: wince on March 10, 2024, 02:01:37 PM
Says anyone from Brum.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Post by: VillaTim on March 10, 2024, 02:14:11 PM
So a minority.Says anyone from Brum.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 10, 2024, 03:27:23 PM
I'd imagine Sky's owners would want them to be as profitable as possible, rather than as fair and impartial as possible.
I don’t want them to be fair and/or impartial.
Post by: AV82EC on March 10, 2024, 04:06:49 PM
Its in the midlands, the invisible bit between the home counties and Cheshire.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Anyone with a working knowledge of English Geography.
Annoys me when northerners call us "southerners" and southerners call us "northerners". Can't help myself telling them.that there is an area right in the middle of the country called the Midlands and we are therefore "Midlanders".
I prefer Mercians.
Post by: wince on March 10, 2024, 04:10:26 PM
Think Moria is missing a Cave Troll tonight mate. Midlands. The middle. North if you be from south, South if you be from north…..No idea what you are smoking today but best lay off it. I am not from the north but from the midlands. As in the middle of the land….So a minority.Says anyone from Brum.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Post by: VillaTim on March 10, 2024, 04:17:27 PM
Get back under your bridge .Think Moria is missing a Cave Troll tonight mate. Midlands. The middle. North if you be from south, South if you be from north…..No idea what you are smoking today but best lay off it. I am not from the north but from the midlands. As in the middle of the land….So a minority.Says anyone from Brum.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
Post by: wince on March 10, 2024, 05:52:48 PM
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 10, 2024, 05:56:42 PM
Get back under your bridge .Think Moria is missing a Cave Troll tonight mate. Midlands. The middle. North if you be from south, South if you be from north…..No idea what you are smoking today but best lay off it. I am not from the north but from the midlands. As in the middle of the land….So a minority.Says anyone from Brum.Birmingham isn’t in the north.Says who
If you'd like to be banned you only have to ask.
Post by: Drummond on March 10, 2024, 06:16:47 PM
Post by: fredm on March 10, 2024, 07:18:50 PM
Are our owners worth more than Radcliffe? I do hope so.
Do you think the Glazers migh twell have worked one on Radcliffe? He is coming in, having put a few quid in, and bringing all these new ideas how to improve the club. If these work, then the profit that MUFC make becomes even higher and the Glazers say " Thanks very much we will have a dividend of £xx, an increase of xxxx much more than last year". Guess who still owns the vast majority of shares in MUFC.
Depends if you include Comcast, who through Atairos own 20%, and are worth around $200 billion. They also own Sky and it’s about time they put some editorial pressure on their football coverage IMO.
They own that much?
Christ...
I did not know they had purchased so much of the club.
Sawiris & Edens are worth a combined £10.4 billion, which places the owners in the top 7 wealthiest in the world in 2024.
Its hard to get that info from these "wealthy owner lists" floating about the internet though because they either just completely ignore us, or just go for Sawiris on his own.
If Comcast own 20% & their value is £185 billion, & adding the £10.4 billion on Sawiris & Edens, then that places all of our owners as 2nd wealthiest in the world behind Jawdi Arabia.
Obviously its not as simple as that & Im not naive enough to think that those numbers mean that Villa are that wealthy, but if we are going on our owners wealth, like the media do with Newcastle, ManC, ManU, Chelsea, etc, they our owners numbers are 2nd in the world.
Be nice if Comcast did exert some pressure on Sky to do their job properly as far as we are concerned though & not just always focus on the media & marketing favourite clubs...
Post by: Percy McCarthy on March 10, 2024, 08:12:38 PM
Are our owners worth more than Radcliffe? I do hope so.
Do you think the Glazers migh twell have worked one on Radcliffe? He is coming in, having put a few quid in, and bringing all these new ideas how to improve the club. If these work, then the profit that MUFC make becomes even higher and the Glazers say " Thanks very much we will have a dividend of £xx, an increase of xxxx much more than last year". Guess who still owns the vast majority of shares in MUFC.
Depends if you include Comcast, who through Atairos own 20%, and are worth around $200 billion. They also own Sky and it’s about time they put some editorial pressure on their football coverage IMO.
They own that much?
Christ...
I did not know they had purchased so much of the club.
Sawiris & Edens are worth a combined £10.4 billion, which places the owners in the top 7 wealthiest in the world in 2024.
Its hard to get that info from these "wealthy owner lists" floating about the internet though because they either just completely ignore us, or just go for Sawiris on his own.
If Comcast own 20% & their value is £185 billion, & adding the £10.4 billion on Sawiris & Edens, then that places all of our owners as 2nd wealthiest in the world behind Jawdi Arabia.
Obviously its not as simple as that & Im not naive enough to think that those numbers mean that Villa are that wealthy, but if we are going on our owners wealth, like the media do with Newcastle, ManC, ManU, Chelsea, etc, they our owners numbers are 2nd in the world.
Be nice if Comcast did exert some pressure on Sky to do their job properly as far as we are concerned though & not just always focus on the media & marketing favourite clubs...
Yes Fred. Personally I thought their £100m investment was for 10% but according to the FT it was for 20.
Post by: algy on March 29, 2024, 07:52:47 AM
https://archive.ph/mS3Xi
I'm sort of hopeful that we'll go for something similar at Villa Park. Obviously not an infinity pool overlooking Witton, which might not be as attractive to visitors, but it'll give Fulham a pretty unique looking stadium with the cottage and that stand. Still feel the 'new' North Stand was a bit bland and we need something .... spicy?
Post by: Chris Harte on March 29, 2024, 07:59:21 AM
Fulham will have a rooftop swimming pool on their new stand:The pool thing is old news so I'm not sure why its being reported now.
https://archive.ph/mS3Xi
I'm sort of hopeful that we'll go for something similar at Villa Park. Obviously not an infinity pool overlooking Witton, which might not be as attractive to visitors, but it'll give Fulham a pretty unique looking stadium with the cottage and that stand. Still feel the 'new' North Stand was a bit bland and we need something .... spicy?
I hope our lot come up with outside of the box ideas. Not a pool though.
Post by: Risso on March 29, 2024, 08:02:05 AM
Fulham will have a rooftop swimming pool on their new stand:The pool thing is old news so I'm not sure why its being reported now.
https://archive.ph/mS3Xi
I'm sort of hopeful that we'll go for something similar at Villa Park. Obviously not an infinity pool overlooking Witton, which might not be as attractive to visitors, but it'll give Fulham a pretty unique looking stadium with the cottage and that stand. Still feel the 'new' North Stand was a bit bland and we need something .... spicy?
I hope our lot come up with outside of the box ideas. Not a pool though.
It's just part of a health and fitness club I think.
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 08:26:47 AM
Post by: Villan82 on March 29, 2024, 08:34:31 AM
Why cant the club release a statement actually telling us their plans ffs , it cant possibly to just stay as we are and rinse 20% increases every year out of us , they must have a plan for something !!
I think this is exactly Heck's plan so the numbers look good and screw the future. Think about it. We were months away from starting and he just cancelled it. It took three years to get the project to where it was the day he announced it wasn't happening.
Some interpreted his cancelling of the new development as a sure sign a new stadium was in the works. But coldly looking at the events of this week without claret and blue glasses I can't see it. the whole point of a new build would be to fill a wider gap in the city's offerings but the rags seem to have that in the works now. Yes, their new stadium might be crap like everything else they do but that site is massive if they want to go big on other offerings alongside.
Edit, and most importantly, I have no doubt it would have leaked if it was simply a case of something better being planned.
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 08:38:11 AM
Post by: Villan82 on March 29, 2024, 08:43:09 AM
But i cant see naz & wes being happy with that , aston villa has & always will be the shining light for our city and i cant see them wanting the shit to be seen as more ambitious
I agree. NSWE are incredible owners. But they got rid of Purslow for this dude. This dude will have been keen to put his stamp on things. He was the one who got rid of the round badge before it was even launched - a whole big event was planned for the Brighton game last May and he over-ruled it. Literally days after arriving.
He probably demanded that he could review the whole operation and they had to back him. He probably has been doing power point presentations with them since day one showing what Chelsea squeeze out of a smaller stadium than ours. Look at his words 'we are adding too many seats too fast'!!
Anyway, that's just my take based on 25 years of experience seeing execs like this guy come and go always out to make an impression around while they are there.
I really, really hope I am badly wrong by the way!
Post by: Ads on March 29, 2024, 08:47:18 AM
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 08:53:52 AM
Post by: Villan82 on March 29, 2024, 08:57:00 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9, that stops us building the best ground in the country in the city centre because...? Do we ration football stadia?
Not impossible but definitely less likely.
We flip flopped on our own redevelopment also. Important to keep that in context. We wasted a lot of time for other stakeholders already.
We spent 5 years charging forward with purpose and we have spent the last year doing u-turns. We are fans of the club, obsessive ones at that, and we no longer have any clue what they are going to do next
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on March 29, 2024, 09:24:14 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9
B8
Post by: LeeB on March 29, 2024, 09:38:02 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9, that stops us building the best ground in the country in the city centre because...? Do we ration football stadia?
It's funny how a few people are flipping out because a team on the verge of falling into the 3rd tier, that haven't had a gate over 30,000 in nearly 40 years and used to get gates of 6k when they were last at that level are going to somehow steal a march on us and possibly prevent us from redeveloping.
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 29, 2024, 09:45:57 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9, that stops us building the best ground in the country in the city centre because...? Do we ration football stadia?
It's funny how a few people are flipping out because a team on the verge of falling into the 3rd tier, that haven't had a gate over 30,000 in nearly 40 years and used to get gates of 6k when they were last at that level are going to somehow steal a march on us and possibly prevent us from redeveloping.
I don’t think it is them that’s the worry its more to do with the goodwill of the council and the city’s capacity to have two city centre venues targeting the same revenue streams.
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 09:51:04 AM
Post by: LeeB on March 29, 2024, 09:54:22 AM
If they end up building a new stadium that will be the absolute limit of it.
Post by: Gareth on March 29, 2024, 09:57:19 AM
I agree thag I would like to know what is / isn’t planned but know it will only happen when they want to tell the customers
Post by: Clampy on March 29, 2024, 09:59:18 AM
People aint flipping out about that shower of shit , they are flipping out because our ceo seems intent on absolutly fleecing us and forcing out fans with prices when at the same time killing all the momentum and good feeling we have had since promotion with his pathetic backtracking and cancelling the redevelopmet cuz in his words , ' too many seats too quickly bullshit !! That is whats narking fans , the shite can build whatever they want , they will still be the shite , but what are WE doing to get better & bigger besides price after price increases
You said earlier that Wes and Naz won't want 'the shit' to be seen as more ambtious. So you do care about them. Bloody hell, calm down.
Post by: FrankyH on March 29, 2024, 10:19:07 AM
Fulham will have a rooftop swimming pool on their new stand:The pool thing is old news so I'm not sure why its being reported now.
https://archive.ph/mS3Xi
I'm sort of hopeful that we'll go for something similar at Villa Park. Obviously not an infinity pool overlooking Witton, which might not be as attractive to visitors, but it'll give Fulham a pretty unique looking stadium with the cottage and that stand. Still feel the 'new' North Stand was a bit bland and we need something .... spicy?
I hope our lot come up with outside of the box ideas. Not a pool though.
I'm sure when small heath build this new mega stadium , they will steal a march on us (yet another one !) , I can hear the marketing blurb now.
"Relax in our beautiful infinity pool in the heart Bordesley Green as pool and Digbeth Branch Canal merge into one. Unwind as you enjoy the beautiful scenery of upturned shopping trolleys and 2lb black ribbed knoblers floating in the famous Brummie landmark."
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 10:32:30 AM
I dont need to calm down m8 , anybody with any brains would know that they would not want to be seen as less ambitious , what we all want to hear is what are WE gunna do to either expand or move , not for us to be fobbed off with bullshit and price risesPeople aint flipping out about that shower of shit , they are flipping out because our ceo seems intent on absolutly fleecing us and forcing out fans with prices when at the same time killing all the momentum and good feeling we have had since promotion with his pathetic backtracking and cancelling the redevelopmet cuz in his words , ' too many seats too quickly bullshit !! That is whats narking fans , the shite can build whatever they want , they will still be the shite , but what are WE doing to get better & bigger besides price after price increases
You said earlier that Wes and Naz won't want 'the shit' to be seen as more ambtious. So you do care about them. Bloody hell, calm down.
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 10:33:49 AM
Fulham will have a rooftop swimming pool on their new stand:The pool thing is old news so I'm not sure why its being reported now.
https://archive.ph/mS3Xi
I'm sort of hopeful that we'll go for something similar at Villa Park. Obviously not an infinity pool overlooking Witton, which might not be as attractive to visitors, but it'll give Fulham a pretty unique looking stadium with the cottage and that stand. Still feel the 'new' North Stand was a bit bland and we need something .... spicy?
I hope our lot come up with outside of the box ideas. Not a pool though.
I'm sure when small heath build this new mega stadium , they will steal a march on us (yet another one !) , I can hear the marketing blurb now.
"Relax in our beautiful infinity pool in the heart Bordesley Green as pool and Digbeth Branch Canal merge into one. Unwind as you enjoy the beautiful scenery of upturned shopping trolleys and 2lb black ribbed knoblers floating in the famous Brummie landmark."
[/quot
Haha love that
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 29, 2024, 10:45:42 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9, that stops us building the best ground in the country in the city centre because...? Do we ration football stadia?
Absolutely this.
Genuinely amazed people
1. Think small heath building a ground has any impact whatsoever on what we do, especially those who think this has something to do with the council
2. Care that they are going to do exactly what Lee said they’ll do - build something that looks like Hull’s ground, only in different colours.
3. Think ANYTHING Small Heath do is even worth a nanosecond thought. We are operating in a different world to them and they know it too, but if they were looking at this thread now they’d be pissing themsleves.
Jesus Christ, I know it’s all about opinions but put your knickers back on, make yourself a cup of tea, have a nice sit down and think about what you’ve been saying on this thread, because it’s absolutely laughable.
Post by: AV82EC on March 29, 2024, 10:46:47 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9, that stops us building the best ground in the country in the city centre because...? Do we ration football stadia?
Absolutely this.
Genuinely amazed people
1. Think small heath building a ground has any impact whatsoever on what we do, especially those who think this has something to do with the council
2. Care that they are going to do exactly what Lee said they’ll do - build something that looks like Hull’s ground, only in different colours.
3. Think ANYTHING Small Heath do is even worth a nanosecond thought. We are operating in a different world to them and they know it too, but if they were looking at this thread now they’d be pissing themsleves.
Jesus Christ, I know it’s all about opinions but put your knickers back on, make yourself a cup of tea, have a nice sit down and think about what you’ve been saying on this thread, because it’s absolutely laughable.
Seconded.
Post by: Clampy on March 29, 2024, 10:47:03 AM
I dont need to calm down m8 , anybody with any brains would know that they would not want to be seen as less ambitious , what we all want to hear is what are WE gunna do to either expand or move , not for us to be fobbed off with bullshit and price risesPeople aint flipping out about that shower of shit , they are flipping out because our ceo seems intent on absolutly fleecing us and forcing out fans with prices when at the same time killing all the momentum and good feeling we have had since promotion with his pathetic backtracking and cancelling the redevelopmet cuz in his words , ' too many seats too quickly bullshit !! That is whats narking fans , the shite can build whatever they want , they will still be the shite , but what are WE doing to get better & bigger besides price after price increases
You said earlier that Wes and Naz won't want 'the shit' to be seen as more ambtious. So you do care about them. Bloody hell, calm down.
The Blues news really has got your back up, you can't shut about them so don't pretend otherwise. You want a statement of some kind because they've made one. Fuck em, they're irrelevant.
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 10:50:52 AM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 29, 2024, 10:51:38 AM
Sorry what? If the Noses build a new tinpot sithole in B9, that stops us building the best ground in the country in the city centre because...? Do we ration football stadia?
Absolutely this.
Genuinely amazed people
1. Think small heath building a ground has any impact whatsoever on what we do, especially those who think this has something to do with the council
2. Care that they are going to do exactly what Lee said they’ll do - build something that looks like Hull’s ground, only in different colours.
3. Think ANYTHING Small Heath do is even worth a nanosecond thought. We are operating in a different world to them and they know it too, but if they were looking at this thread now they’d be pissing themsleves.
Jesus Christ, I know it’s all about opinions but put your knickers back on, make yourself a cup of tea, have a nice sit down and think about what you’ve been saying on this thread, because it’s absolutely laughable.
You fool. They're going to be bigger than us. They can feel it. When has it ever gone wrong when they make big announcements? Your evidence won't keep you warm tonight.
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 29, 2024, 10:54:17 AM
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 29, 2024, 10:58:06 AM
We're in a European QF, are in a Champions League place and average over 40k. And our owners are massively ambitious.
They are still a comedy circus that is a shitstain on our city. They are in no way a threat to us.
Post by: Richard E on March 29, 2024, 11:00:08 AM
Post by: langleylions on March 29, 2024, 11:05:52 AM
Post by: Clampy on March 29, 2024, 11:07:39 AM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on March 29, 2024, 11:11:04 AM
Post by: AV82EC on March 29, 2024, 11:16:36 AM
Anyway, with all this positivity about their future let’s turn our attention to their <checks notes> Championship Relegation 6 pointer at QPR.
To paraphrase the flare wearing boys from Wolvo…..#levels
Post by: Villan82 on March 29, 2024, 11:19:56 AM
His announcement in December was a shitshow. If you announce something big that was planned isn't happening but don't give any indication what's the Plan B this is what the result will be.
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 29, 2024, 11:35:05 AM
With respect, this thread would be entirely different if Mr Heck had taken a leaf out of his predecessor's book and been a bit more upfront about what's happening.
His announcement in December was a shitshow. If you announce something big that was planned isn't happening but don't give any indication what's the Plan B this is what the result will be.
What is the result? That Blues have bought some wasteland? I don't have any time for Heck based on his performance so far, but I don't think he can take the blame for some vulture capitalists taking Blues for a ride.
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 29, 2024, 11:35:30 AM
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on March 29, 2024, 11:45:03 AM
Post by: Villan82 on March 29, 2024, 11:48:09 AM
With respect, this thread would be entirely different if Mr Heck had taken a leaf out of his predecessor's book and been a bit more upfront about what's happening.
His announcement in December was a shitshow. If you announce something big that was planned isn't happening but don't give any indication what's the Plan B this is what the result will be.
What is the result? That Blues have bought some wasteland? I don't have any time for Heck based on his performance so far, but I don't think he can take the blame for some vulture capitalists taking Blues for a ride.
Look, you are being disingenuous there. I don't give a damn about the rags.
Quite obvious I mean all of the uncertainty about what we are actually doing and whether we are just going to keep 42k and jack up prices every year.
We all know FFP means we have to increase revenue and we cancelled our original plan for doing it.
Post by: Clampy on March 29, 2024, 11:52:46 AM
With respect, this thread would be entirely different if Mr Heck had taken a leaf out of his predecessor's book and been a bit more upfront about what's happening.
His announcement in December was a shitshow. If you announce something big that was planned isn't happening but don't give any indication what's the Plan B this is what the result will be.
What do you want them to say if there's nothing to say or been decided?
Post by: Ads on March 29, 2024, 12:48:46 PM
Right, you see Leicester, Southampton and Middlesborough? That dull, soulless, 30k ish type almost identical bowl set up for mid range clubs?
If they end up building a new stadium that will be the absolute limit of it.
Exactly. They're an absolute shower. If we want to build something, it will be to build the best ground in the country. They can get fucked, quite why folks are bringing them up is bizarre.
Post by: Demitri_C on March 29, 2024, 12:51:31 PM
Just look at the very first post on our Small Heath thread - which 15 years old now - and stop worrying.
But the difference now is they seem to have owners who are actually ambitious and have half a brain cell. Dont get me wrong i dont think there will be global domination like their brain dead fans think. But their owners seem to have more wealth than most of that league so wouldnt suprise me if they are challenging in next few years
Ergh i need a bath
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 29, 2024, 12:57:59 PM
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 29, 2024, 01:03:06 PM
They’re requoting Ads on that thread about us!
I think Monty may have joined for a laugh.
Quote
Harbsbleu
bluearmyfaction
Tom TheProject Brady
Do we ration football stadia?
Knowledge of the second-declension neuter plural? Am impressed.
Is it not third declension? Mensa 1st, Dominus 2nd , Bellum 3rd - Stadium. I should recall as I went to school where Latin was beaten into you repeatedly
No, it's 2nd declension neuter. 3rd declension is a ragbag of consonontal stems but distinguished by the genitive singular in -is. (nomen/nominis, rex/regis, hom-o/hominis.)
Post by: algy on March 29, 2024, 01:05:47 PM
Oh, pull yourself together.Just look at the very first post on our Small Heath thread - which 15 years old now - and stop worrying.
But the difference now is they seem to have owners who are actually ambitious and have half a brain cell. Dont get me wrong i dont think there will be global domination like their brain dead fans think. But their owners seem to have more wealth than most of that league so wouldnt suprise me if they are challenging in next few years
Ergh i need a bath
The only league title Small Heath might challenge for in the next few years is League One. I'd be surprised if they built a new stadium on the Wheels site at all, and if they do there's no case for making it bigger than their current ground since they couldn't fill that (except against us) when they were in the Premier League. And Blues having either St Andrews or a ground that's a similar size and in a similar location to St Andrews will have no more effect on the commercial viability of either Villa Park or a new Villadrome elsewhere.
More likely the present owners will flip the Wheels site for an easy buck. Small Heath won't see a penny of it, and they'll continue to play in a dilapidated ground, but muddling around the middle of league one.
Post by: Ads on March 29, 2024, 01:17:42 PM
They’re requoting Ads on that thread about us!
The silly twats have a thread that starts with "Aston Villa we're coming for you". The Carnian Pluvial Period where it quite literally rained for 2 million years would be shorter measure of time for how quickly that shower is coming for us. Quote me all they like, if you're under 20, you've never seen your side beat us in the league. Embarrassing fucking twats.
Post by: Nev on March 29, 2024, 01:18:45 PM
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on March 29, 2024, 01:31:43 PM
Post by: Ads on March 29, 2024, 01:35:13 PM
I’d argue when they first wanted this super mega bowl it was under the best owners they ever had.
Like Chico said, the first page of the thread about then is said best owners begging for the Council to build them a Dildo Dome.
If they build anything at all, it would just be the Kop/Tilton style shite replicated where the Main Stand and Agbonlahor Ends are. Oooooh.
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 29, 2024, 02:02:31 PM
Post by: amfy on March 29, 2024, 02:38:53 PM
Post by: Risso on March 29, 2024, 04:43:10 PM
Personally I think it’s very telling that there appears to be not one of them with any emotional attachment to St Andrews! It s all just ‘Yay The Vile will be rattled!’
It's all they care about. If by some miracle, they were ever in a position whereby winning a game would make them win the league, but losing would send us down instead, the vast majority of them would choose the latter.
Post by: Chris Harte on March 29, 2024, 06:30:47 PM
Personally, I suspect they'll use it as a coach park, only for it to be invaded by travellers. Once the dispersal order is applied, they'll leave but not before they put a curse on the place.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 29, 2024, 07:06:05 PM
Post by: Jean Quereue-Quereue on March 29, 2024, 07:09:30 PM
(https://i.ibb.co/nPXks8M/IMG-2564.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PD2CZzG)
(https://i.ibb.co/PzWDg51/IMG-2565.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KzsKW9V)
(https://i.ibb.co/t4pVMqm/IMG-2566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/47RhZ8m)
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on March 29, 2024, 07:12:56 PM
Post by: Chris Harte on March 29, 2024, 07:16:25 PM
* I realise it was only initially the upper tier. The rebuild of the lower tier would have added to the original cost.
Post by: Jean Quereue-Quereue on March 29, 2024, 07:20:51 PM
Blimey. I'm sure Herbert built* the stand that now has his name for £5m in 1994. Bloody inflation.
* I realise it was only initially the upper tier. The rebuild of the lower tier would have added to the original cost.
The main costs in the study are walls, roof, mechanical and electrical. Trades costs are more expensive now.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 29, 2024, 07:21:24 PM
Post by: Brend'Watkins on March 29, 2024, 08:48:00 PM
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 29, 2024, 08:50:18 PM
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 29, 2024, 08:53:19 PM
It pretty much means it isn’t worth developing unless you can guarantee it all goes to corporate at about £200 a pop ?
You haven't done corporate, have you?
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 29, 2024, 09:02:44 PM
It pretty much means it isn’t worth developing unless you can guarantee it all goes to corporate at about £200 a pop ?
You haven't done corporate, have you?
I had 4 years at Chelsea for work sadly. , i guess it depends on the levels of corporate and yes £200 would be a minimum Semi corporate they would be looking for per head
Post by: VillaTim on March 29, 2024, 09:05:03 PM
82 lounge tomorrow is circa £350 per person . The lions / directors restaurant circa £450/500 ppIt pretty much means it isn’t worth developing unless you can guarantee it all goes to corporate at about £200 a pop ?
You haven't done corporate, have you?
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 29, 2024, 09:10:17 PM
I had 4 years at Chelsea for work sadly. , i guess it depends on the levels of corporate and yes £200 would be a minimum Semi corporate they would be looking for per head
Absolutely. If the Jasper Carrott Suite is £370 a game at the Sty, I'd imagine it would be significantly more for corporate in a new North Stand.
Post by: amfy on March 29, 2024, 09:10:23 PM
God knows how they charge that at Blues - I’ve been in their suites for events and they’re nowhere near as nice as at Deepdale!
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 29, 2024, 09:12:11 PM
I had 4 years at Chelsea for work sadly. , i guess it depends on the levels of corporate and yes £200 would be a minimum Semi corporate they would be looking for per head
Absolutely. If the Jasper Carrott Suite is £370 a game at the Sty, I'd imagine it would be significantly more for corporate in a new North Stand.
Is that what they pay you to go in ?😃
Post by: VillaTim on March 29, 2024, 09:14:19 PM
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 29, 2024, 09:24:20 PM
The diamond suite at Chelsea last season when we won 2-0 (McGinn goal) was £1100 each . It was rammed aswell , no shortage of takers but that's west London for you.
#onlycometoseethevilla
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 29, 2024, 09:53:52 PM
God knows how they charge that at Blues - I’ve been in their suites for events and they’re nowhere near as nice as at Deepdale!
Birmingham wages, innit?
Post by: VillaTim on March 29, 2024, 10:33:52 PM
Yeah basically . Few remnants of the Russian empire still milling about but basically very plastic and weird.The diamond suite at Chelsea last season when we won 2-0 (McGinn goal) was £1100 each . It was rammed aswell , no shortage of takers but that's west London for you.
#onlycometoseethevilla
Post by: eamonn on March 29, 2024, 11:23:12 PM
They’re requoting Ads on that thread about us!
I think Monty may have joined for a laugh.Quote
Harbsbleu
bluearmyfaction
Tom TheProject Brady
Do we ration football stadia?
Knowledge of the second-declension neuter plural? Am impressed.
Is it not third declension? Mensa 1st, Dominus 2nd , Bellum 3rd - Stadium. I should recall as I went to school where Latin was beaten into you repeatedly
No, it's 2nd declension neuter. 3rd declension is a ragbag of consonontal stems but distinguished by the genitive singular in -is. (nomen/nominis, rex/regis, hom-o/hominis.)
Or BE. I think he may have grammar-gasmed.
Post by: Drummond on March 29, 2024, 11:41:21 PM
Yeah basically . Few remnants of the Russian empire still milling about but basically very plastic and weird.The diamond suite at Chelsea last season when we won 2-0 (McGinn goal) was £1100 each . It was rammed aswell , no shortage of takers but that's west London for you.
#onlycometoseethevilla
Didn't know you were Russian.
Post by: PeterWithe on April 09, 2024, 01:35:34 PM
https://youtu.be/GfZFZR94FUU
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 09, 2024, 02:22:05 PM
Came across this about the reconstruction of Real Madrid's Bernabeau. Impressive.
https://youtu.be/GfZFZR94FUU
If they're renaming the stadium, it'll have to look good.