Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Ads on March 03, 2021, 12:09:56 AM

Title: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 03, 2021, 12:09:56 AM
I see in an article by the BBC that the intention is to redevelop Villa Park for any potential World Cup 2030 bid. I would be surprised if we did not demolish the  oeth Stand before then.

Could we be the Witton going as Phase II?

Quote
Aston Villa is one club who will offer full support for any bid and plan to upgrade Villa Park to ensure it meets Fifa guidelines for the tournament.

Villa Park has a rich tradition of hosting major occasions, including three games at the 1966 World Cup, four Euro 96 games and a total of 16 internationals. It was the first English stadium to host internationals across three different centuries and has also staged a record 55 FA Cup semi-finals as well as the 1999 European Cup Winners' Cup Final between Mallorca and Lazio.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 03, 2021, 12:23:06 AM
I wonder why we are the only club specifically mentioned, when we have no immediate plans on the table. Everton on the other hand have just received planning consent for their proposed new stadium. It seems strange.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 03, 2021, 01:04:53 AM
Finally, that long-mooted boost to 52k with a North Stand wrap-around (Holte still free-standing, don't worry).
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Mortimer's Bear on March 03, 2021, 07:55:20 AM
no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Gareth on March 03, 2021, 08:07:01 AM
Neither North Stand or Witton Lane stand are fit for purpose concourse wise but Iíd imagine when they have been sat empty for a year+ now is not the time for redeveloping
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 08:13:49 AM
no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.
I agree completely. I'd be entirely up for shoving a big, red brick clock tower like the one at Birmingham Uni in the Witton Lane corner of the North Stand. Just to highlight how tinpot every other ground is compared to ours.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:16:23 AM
They reckon full grounds are not far off. I think maybe quite soon the time will be right to redevelop the north stand. Especially if we can maintain some kind of momentum football-wise the next few years. Itís been probably 20 years since Iíve been in the Witton Lane, I remember it having good views, but a bit cramped and shit concourse facilities. Whether that gets done or not could depend on a number of things. With the north stand Iíd scrap the approved wrap around plans and go for a big fuck off bank like Spurs have got, but a free-standing structure. Real shame we couldnít have been more creative with the old trinity- like ibrox, but what was done was done.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:21:41 AM
On a side note- presumably the rail seating plans have been parked as a general idea since COVID ? If we could do it, Iíd have the Holte and lower north converted to rail seating
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:25:48 AM
no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.
I agree completely. I'd be entirely up for shoving a big, red brick clock tower like the one at Birmingham Uni in the Witton Lane corner of the North Stand. Just to highlight how tinpot every other ground is compared to ours.
brilliant! why not go the whole hog and stick one in the trinity corner too and mount AV floodlights on them too?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 03, 2021, 08:27:58 AM
One slightly taller than the other
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 03, 2021, 11:02:27 AM
Whatever happens with the World Cup bid it can only be a matter of time before we have a comprehensive redevelopment of both the North Stand and Witton Lane.  The North Stand will be getting on for 50 years old soon which must be close to it's intended lifespan anyway, and with the amount of space behind it there is the opportunity to develop a facility as good as anything in some of the new grounds whilst not losing our heritage.  Witton Lane will be slightly more difficult with the rights to light etc for the properties behind, although given the advances in technology since the last rebuild I suspect we will be able to get something bigger and better there as well.

I will say that any redevelopment that includes AV floodlights and putting a gable on the roof of Trinity Road would get my seal of approval.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:04:14 AM
no wrap-around for me. I know I'm stuck in a time warp but a football ground should have 4 stands and VP is already the finest stadium in the country, lets not copy the other identikit grounds that are popping up all over the place.

Same here, just joined low down as it is atm.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 03, 2021, 11:19:11 AM
With the Witton I think you'd have to either divert the road, make the road 1 way to cut it down or push it back into the parkland area.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:20:30 AM
Assuming the joint 2030 bid goes ahead what would be the 12 stadiums? The following would be a strong list with not much work required.

Wembley (Final), Tottenham, Emirates, Villa Park, Anfield/Everton, Old Trafford, St. James' Park, Millennium, Hampden, Celtic Park/Murrayfield, Aviva, Croke Park (assuming GAA approve). Possibly Casement Park in Belfast if it's redeveloped to the required standard.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 03, 2021, 11:26:00 AM
Even with the expansion to 48 teams, England could easily host the World Cup alone. Adding the Celts makes it less likely to pass as the rest of Europe aren't going to want to surrender five of their sixteen qualifying spots. In any case, such a tournament would likely just be England with a tiny handful of games elsewhere as a token.

I'd much rather England bid for the World Cup alone, and Scotland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland (sorry Northern Ireland, you don't get any games) bid for the Euros instead.

That said, I would rather England bid for 2034 as the romantic in me wants Uruguay to have some involvement in hosting 2030.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 11:43:50 AM
Assuming the joint 2030 bid goes ahead what would be the 12 stadiums? The following would be a strong list with not much work required.

Wembley (Final), Tottenham, Emirates, Villa Park, Anfield/Everton, Old Trafford, St. James' Park, Millennium, Hampden, Celtic Park/Murrayfield, Aviva, Croke Park (assuming GAA approve). Possibly Casement Park in Belfast if it's redeveloped to the required standard.
I'd go for the following (organised in geographic groups of 3 grounds to keep travel down during the group stages):

Wembley (Ldn)
Millenium Stadium (Cdf)
Everton's new ground (Liverpool)

Old Trafford (Mcr)
Olympic Stadium (Ldn)
Villa Park (Brum)

Hampden Park (Glasgow)
Murrayfield (Edinburgh)
St James Park (Newcastle)

Anfield (Liverpool)
Aviva Stadium (Dublin)
Casement Park (Belfast)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 11:49:22 AM
Even with the expansion to 48 teams, England could easily host the World Cup alone. Adding the Celts makes it less likely to pass as the rest of Europe aren't going to want to surrender five of their sixteen qualifying spots. In any case, such a tournament would likely just be England with a tiny handful of games elsewhere as a token.
England plus one other qualify automatically, the other countries get to go through their normal qualification routes?

For me, the point would be more that it's unlikely that Republic of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland would be able to host a world cup without the involvement of England.  I'd be happy to see those 4 countries host the important games (final etc), and just use the English grounds to make up the numbers rather than building a 120,000 all seater stadium in Cowdenbeath.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:55:03 AM
A similar list but I wouldn't have 2 venues in Liverpool similar to London. Better to have 3 in London and 1 in Liverpool not to put Manc and Brummie noses out plus there's the accommodation to think of.

Personally I doubt Casement Park will done in time for a bid and will only hold 40k. Croke Park is the third biggest stadium in Europe and an easy walk from the city centre. FiFA would prefer an extra 30-40k seats to sell.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 03, 2021, 11:58:54 AM
Even with the expansion to 48 teams, England could easily host the World Cup alone. Adding the Celts makes it less likely to pass as the rest of Europe aren't going to want to surrender five of their sixteen qualifying spots. In any case, such a tournament would likely just be England with a tiny handful of games elsewhere as a token.

England plus one other qualify automatically, the other countries get to go through their normal qualification routes?

For me, the point would be more that it's unlikely that Republic of Ireland, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland would be able to host a world cup without the involvement of England.  I'd be happy to see those 4 countries host the important games (final etc), and just use the English grounds to make up the numbers rather than building a 120,000 all seater stadium in Cowdenbeath.

Agree with this, some pragmatism would be required. Maybe
1) England as hosts with the other 4 playing a mini tournament for another host spot or
2) England and Scotland as hosts but the semi-finals to be played in Cardiff and Dublin.

I agree with CD that it would be nice to have the 2030 tournament in South America, then 2034 in the British Isles.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 03, 2021, 12:13:44 PM
You'd want sixteen grounds, judging by the 2026 effort. They generally only allow the capital to have more than one ground in the World Cup so no Man City or Everton. Bristol City, MK and Plymouth were all included in the last bid, I think.

For England World Cup:

Wembley
One more London: probably Arsenal or Tottenham
Man U
Liverpool
Newcastle
Sunderland
Leeds
One of the Sheffield teams
Villa
East Midlands team: Leicester, Forest or Derby
Norwich
Reading
Bristol City
Milton Keynes
Southampton
Plymouth

For a Celtic Euros:

Hampden
Celtic Park
Murrayfield
Hearts or Hibs
New Aberdeen Stadium
New shared Dundee Stadium
Millennium Stadium
Swansea
Redeveloped Wrexham (they can afford it now...)
Lansdowne Road
Croke Park
Redeveloped GAA ground somewhere in West of Ireland
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 03, 2021, 01:13:22 PM
A similar list but I wouldn't have 2 venues in Liverpool similar to London. Better to have 3 in London and 1 in Liverpool not to put Manc and Brummie noses out plus there's the accommodation to think of.

Personally I doubt Casement Park will done in time for a bid and will only hold 40k. Croke Park is the third biggest stadium in Europe and an easy walk from the city centre. FiFA would prefer an extra 30-40k seats to sell.

Would be bigger if the Dubs didn't insist on keeping their beloved/crumpled Hill16 terrace.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 02:25:44 PM
This debate does raise the issue of much needed redevelopment at Villa Park. In the long history of our club the stadium has always been considered an elite venue for holding major football events. Sadly this is not the case anymore. As much as we love it half the stadium isn't anywhere near the required standards now. We are in danger of being left behind and overlooked. We need our place back among the elite football stadia in this country and we have owners capable of building their own legacy on and off the pitch. Let's get our club back where it belongs amongst the very best.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 03, 2021, 02:45:37 PM
Whatever we do we cannot lose the essence of what Villa Park is in terms of its aesthetic appeal and most importantly the football environment it creates. I donít disagree aspects of the ground need to be brought up to date. Man U fans are saying much the same thing about Old Trafford.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 03, 2021, 03:32:51 PM
Whatever we do we cannot lose the essence of what Villa Park is in terms of its aesthetic appeal and most importantly the football environment it creates. I donít disagree aspects of the ground need to be brought up to date. Man U fans are saying much the same thing about Old Trafford.

We should look to build exterior facades in the style of the Holte, and sort the Trinity in the same manner if possible.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villa Lew on March 03, 2021, 03:58:09 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: hipkiss92 on March 03, 2021, 04:12:57 PM
You'd want sixteen grounds, judging by the 2026 effort. They generally only allow the capital to have more than one ground in the World Cup so no Man City or Everton. Bristol City, MK and Plymouth were all included in the last bid, I think.

For England World Cup:

Wembley
One more London: probably Arsenal or Tottenham
Man U
Liverpool
Newcastle
Sunderland
Leeds
One of the Sheffield teams
Villa
East Midlands team: Leicester, Forest or Derby
Norwich
Reading
Bristol City
Milton Keynes
Southampton
Plymouth

For a Celtic Euros:

Hampden
Celtic Park
Murrayfield
Hearts or Hibs
New Aberdeen Stadium
New shared Dundee Stadium
Millennium Stadium
Swansea
Redeveloped Wrexham (they can afford it now...)
Lansdowne Road
Croke Park
Redeveloped GAA ground somewhere in West of Ireland

I could see them having Arsenal and Tottenham rather than including Reading in the list. If Crossrail is sorted by 2030 Reading will essentially be a Borough of London anyway.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on March 03, 2021, 04:18:25 PM
I hate wrap around stadiums. Redo the North stand to make it a similar size to the Holte (there's plenty of space) and then we can look at the options for Witton Lane because the concourses in there are a massive problem, it would be tough though as we'd need to have the road moved to stand any chance and I can see a lot of opposition to that.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: UK Redsox on March 03, 2021, 04:19:29 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.

Build a copy of the Spurs stadium somewhere just north of Worcester and move Villa there

Sorted
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 03, 2021, 04:22:02 PM
There has to remain a separate identity for each of the stands, at least in the upper tiers.  You can fill the corners with boxes, corporate seats, restaurants, craft breweries, cheese rooms or whatever else we want, but whatever we do it needs to remain recognisably as Villa Park.  As good as Tottenham's new ground may be, when it is filled with fans three quarters of it looks no different to the Emirates or Etihad, or any number of large new builds in other countries. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: itmustbe_it is! on March 03, 2021, 04:22:12 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.

Both Spurs and Etihad had almost zero atmosphere. Emirates seemed better for some reason. And if you're high up like we were at Etihad (or Wembley) it's like watching a game of Subbuteo.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: oldhill_avfc on March 03, 2021, 04:24:59 PM
There has to remain a separate identity for each of the stands, at least in the upper tiers.  You can fill the corners with boxes, corporate seats, restaurants, craft breweries, cheese rooms or whatever else we want, but whatever we do it needs to remain recognisably as Villa Park.  As good as Tottenham's new ground may be, when it is filled with fans three quarters of it looks no different to the Emirates or Etihad, or any number of large new builds in other countries.

Your point regarding the Spurs stadium is right.  It's main assets are the single tier stand and it's location , ie existing White Hart Lane.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 03, 2021, 04:27:48 PM
It's wrap around stadium for me, lose too much capacity having 4 stands. Spurs stadium I reckon is superb.

Build a copy of the Spurs stadium somewhere just north of Worcester and move Villa there

Sorted

Coldstream is North of Worcester?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 03, 2021, 04:35:39 PM
I hate wrap around stadiums. Redo the North stand to make it a similar size to the Holte (there's plenty of space) and then we can look at the options for Witton Lane because the concourses in there are a massive problem, it would be tough though as we'd need to have the road moved to stand any chance and I can see a lot of opposition to that.




Or build over the road for the witton  lane
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 03, 2021, 04:47:11 PM
I hate wrap around stadiums. Redo the North stand to make it a similar size to the Holte (there's plenty of space) and then we can look at the options for Witton Lane because the concourses in there are a massive problem, it would be tough though as we'd need to have the road moved to stand any chance and I can see a lot of opposition to that.




Or build over the road for the witton  lane

Although thanks to Doug's penny-pinching, there is a large chunk of unused space at the front of the lower tier - a fairly shallow rake for the seats here and a decent overhanging upper tier and we might not have to go as far back as we think.  I always thought the bigger problem was that if the stand went any higher then it blocks the light to the houses over the back.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 03, 2021, 04:48:22 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 04:48:53 PM
Whatever we do we cannot lose the essence of what Villa Park is in terms of its aesthetic appeal and most importantly the football environment it creates. I donít disagree aspects of the ground need to be brought up to date. Man U fans are saying much the same thing about Old Trafford.
Absolutely. I'd hate them to make Villa Park just another stadium. Its got history and character. They could keep that style and bring the capacity up to around 50,000 which I think would be ideal for us.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 03, 2021, 04:50:25 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. On would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

You'll do for me, have a bronx hat
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 03, 2021, 04:51:16 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. On would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

You'll do for me, have a bronx hat

Cheers Tom
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: nigel on March 03, 2021, 05:02:41 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 03, 2021, 05:06:04 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates

Build it in the city centre then. On the site of the old library !
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on March 03, 2021, 05:09:54 PM
I think one big single tier stand at the North Stand end, with boxes in towers either side would be my shout. The sooner the better, too.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 03, 2021, 05:11:56 PM
Havenít they just refurbished the boxes in the north stand ? Would they potentially just extend the north stand?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on March 03, 2021, 05:30:46 PM
There has to remain a separate identity for each of the stands, at least in the upper tiers.  You can fill the corners with boxes, corporate seats, restaurants, craft breweries, cheese rooms or whatever else we want, but whatever we do it needs to remain recognisably as Villa Park.  As good as Tottenham's new ground may be, when it is filled with fans three quarters of it looks no different to the Emirates or Etihad, or any number of large new builds in other countries. 

Indeed.  Not a fan at all.

If we go the route of replicating other club's designs I'd bulldoze the Witton Lane carbuncle and look at something similar to the new main stand at Anfield.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 05:38:19 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates

Build it in the city centre then. On the site of the old library !
There's already a 500 million pound development going up on that site called Paradise. The only available land of the size we would need in the city centre is the old wholesale markets site. But it's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: wittonwarrior on March 03, 2021, 05:40:58 PM
As much as it is a badge of honour, I would prefer us to miss out rather than turn Villa Park into another Eithad.  I love our ground everything about it apart from the names of two of the stands.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Duncan Shaw on March 03, 2021, 05:47:55 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

If we built a complete new stadium it would certainly be a wrap around like the Emirates

Build it in the city centre then. On the site of the old library !
There's already a 500 million pound development going up on that site called Paradise. The only available land of the size we would need in the city centre is the old wholesale markets site. But it's not going to happen.


Can you imagine if we built it in the City centre...it would finish the Noses off once and for all I reckon...."But dem viyull bastards ain't from the City....."
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: andyh on March 03, 2021, 05:48:41 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: sid1964 on March 03, 2021, 05:52:49 PM
When I walk across Aston park the sight of seeing our ground is fantastic - I personally hope that we never move from Villa Park

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on March 03, 2021, 06:00:01 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?

The recent Anfield development was quoted as £250 million.

That wasn't just a stand, it's other infrastructure in the area as well.

But still, it's quite a jump from the £15 million or so we paid for the new Trinity back in 2000.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 06:12:30 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 03, 2021, 06:16:45 PM
If we were going to move, I'd prefer moving closer to the city centre. But I don't think it's necessary - rebuild the North Stand to have a similar capacity to the Holte End, which I think would take the capacity up to about 49000. I think that's fine for now, and still leaves a bit of scope to upgrade the Witton Lane stand.

Whenever I mention that I support Villa, at least to fans who actually go to watch their clubs, they almost always mention how much they like visiting Villa Park, and think it looks brilliant. It must have the same kind of effect on players. I also think you'd lose that completely with a wraparound stadium. I'd rather we stick with a slightly smaller ground (if you can call a 50k capacity ground 'small') but make it stand out.

I don't want a carbon copy of the Holte End facade. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but I'd rather we have 4 unique stands that any other club would class as their 'main' stand. Love this stand at Ibrox, for example. I'm not the world's biggest Sevco fan, but I do think their ground looks absolutely brilliant

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIH9526R108/V-AuAORnX5I/AAAAAAAACIE/PuoHVInZs1oPCR1Gl4cFgwjKtIyrbV5qACLcB/s1600/Ibrox_Bill_Struth_Main_Stand.JPG)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rudy65 on March 03, 2021, 07:01:25 PM
As I dont want the people in Wellington Road forced out. I suggest the one stop retail park in Perry Barr is demolished and we build a brand new stadium there. Four seperate stands all built similar to the present Holte End but incorporating as much of the old Trinity as present building regulations allow, all with the facade and steps behind. The present Holte holds just under 13.5k so I would estimate a total capacity in the region of 70k with such structures along both sides and ends. One would be called the William McGregor stand, one would be called the Eric Houghton stand, one would be called the Graham Taylor stand, and one would be called the Ron Saunders stand.
As we are pushing out the retailers, there would be a little shop outside on the corner. This would be called the Doug Ellis.

One Stop isnít big enough
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: aldridgeboy on March 03, 2021, 07:33:04 PM
If we developed the Witton lane stand, would that make it the newest stand ever to be redeveloped?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 07:56:06 PM
If we developed the Witton lane stand, would that make it the newest stand ever to be redeveloped?
It's actually an extension of the old Witton lane stand so no. Wolves have rebuilt the same stand twice since the 80's.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: exigo on March 03, 2021, 10:00:31 PM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.

Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.

(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 03, 2021, 10:19:45 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: AV82EC on March 03, 2021, 10:22:01 PM
For me, if we're going to do this then it needs to be done properly. As suggested above, we do need to fill in the corners but on the basis of this linking the 4 stands together rather than being a bowl so Spurs/Dortmund not Arsenal.

Holte End - make it one tier, steeper rake and rail seating back to front.
Trinity Road - Upper Tier concourse needs to be bigger can we go our further.
North Stand - knocked down and start again, mirror the Holte if needs be but link around to Trinity and Witton.
Witton Lane - Knock it down and re-think, going to be difficult but it was done on the cheap and we need to work out how we can make it better. Two tier but rake on lower tier needs to be steeper.

I think I mentioned this before but we have a strange shaped site but have we got enough room to push the whole stadium back 50-100 yards utilising the mass of space we do have behind the North Stand? (ah just checked google maps and looks like we'd have to buy every house on the east side of nelson Road to make that work!!) 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 03, 2021, 11:17:47 PM
No way should we be doing that filling in the gaps thing.

Fuck that, it always looks half arsed and cheap.

I wrote an article about this for the fanzine a few years ago.

Our ground is four stands. That's the way it should stay or we become like the rest.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 03, 2021, 11:28:02 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on March 03, 2021, 11:29:18 PM
I'd want us to keep the four distinct, separate stands.

But make at least one of them even better and bring the overall finish to a higher standard.

Contrast the hotchpotch we have in the corner between the Holte and Witton Lane and the support posts on the Holte compared to a third rate outfit like Glasgow Rangers, for example.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 03, 2021, 11:44:30 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.

They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: DB on March 04, 2021, 09:16:32 AM
Both Witton and Trinity were built on the cheap? They certainly look that way. Trinity facade has got better in recent years, but when it was first built it looked awful.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 04, 2021, 09:24:30 AM
How has it got better, the facade faded ?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 10:37:56 AM

They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.

Somebody added photos of all the Midlands clubs' grounds to the "Old Pics of Brum Facebook group, showing the grounds now and then. Here's the old one of Villa Park, with the North Stand looking quite new and impressive compared to the older stands.


(https://i.ibb.co/b2VTx3s/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2VTx3s)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 10:52:44 AM
Both Witton and Trinity were built on the cheap? They certainly look that way. Trinity facade has got better in recent years, but when it was first built it looked awful.

The Witton was definitely done as cheaply as it could have been. Trinity wasn't that bad but a comparatively small amount extra could have made it spectacular.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 04, 2021, 11:04:19 AM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.

They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
I knew something dodgy went on. The space is there to do something special at that end. It's long overdue.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 11:09:18 AM
Both Witton and Trinity were built on the cheap? They certainly look that way. Trinity facade has got better in recent years, but when it was first built it looked awful.

The Witton was definitely done as cheaply as it could have been. Trinity wasn't that bad but a comparatively small amount extra could have made it spectacular.

The Witton was terrible. Sat in there a few times after it was just built, and if you were 6' plus, you literally couldn't get your legs in because the seats were crammed in so badly.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 11:27:43 AM
The Witton is the worst stand in the ground.

The Holte End is magnificent. The new Trinity lacks the charm of the old one, but its taken 20 years, it's now looking a lot more impressive and with 3 tiers, she is a big old imposing beast. The North is uuugly! But its unique and was something in its day.

The Witton is an absolutely bland two tier non-entity that could be at any ground up or down the land. On balance I think I'd rather knock that down first.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Towser on March 04, 2021, 11:33:30 AM
Would be nice if we could purchase Witton Lane again, move the road over again and build the stand to compliment the Trinity. Oh and change its name from its current alias
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 12:02:05 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.
It was state of the art but was nothing like the stand it should of been. I believe that people were jailed due to financial irregularities surrounding its construction.

They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.
I knew something dodgy went on. The space is there to do something special at that end. It's long overdue.

One of the big problems with that space is car parking, both in terms of capacity and revenue.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on March 04, 2021, 02:10:39 PM
The North Stand needs to go and should be first to go. Put capacity aside for a minute, the facilities in there are horrific. It doesn't feel safe in the concourse. It is dark, it is cramped. It is just awful. I know it was a great stand in its day but like a lot of builds of that era it has not stood the test of time. If we are honest the late 1970s built North Stand already looked dated by the early 2000s whereas the stands built in the 1990s still look impressive.

I know the Witton Lane stand is quite mundane but it is not as urgent as the North Stand. Also, I think the Witton Lane stand looks quite OK from outside.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 02:33:40 PM
The North Stand needs to go and should be first to go. Put capacity aside for a minute, the facilities in there are horrific. It doesn't feel safe in the concourse. It is dark, it is cramped. It is just awful. I know it was a great stand in its day but like a lot of builds of that era it has not stood the test of time. If we are honest the late 1970s built North Stand already looked dated by the early 2000s whereas the stands built in the 1990s still look impressive.

I know the Witton Lane stand is quite mundane but it is not as urgent as the North Stand. Also, I think the Witton Lane stand looks quite OK from outside.

Apart from the graffiti on the sides.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on March 04, 2021, 02:51:06 PM
One of the big problems with that space is car parking, both in terms of capacity and revenue.

With the shop and the academy/stumps there's a lot of space that could be better used along there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 04, 2021, 03:18:46 PM
One of the big problems with that space is car parking, both in terms of capacity and revenue.

With the shop and the academy/stumps there's a lot of space that could be better used along there.

That's not really much extra space given that even a stand with the same capacity as the current one would have to be much bigger.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Concrete Tom on March 04, 2021, 04:05:14 PM
Iím sure some sort of underground parking could be considered. There appears to be plenty of room to excavate.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 04, 2021, 04:17:12 PM
In my own work I am finding that car parking provision is no longer the deal maker or breaker with planners.  It is not uncommon that some densely urban areas (like Aston) prefer developments with no parking so that public transport is prioritized.  I would like to see social housing, particularly for single men and women incorporated in the redevelopment of the North Stand.  A redeveloped Witton Lane stand should span the road and convert the low grade public open space into covered leisure and recreation space along the lines of Le Corbusier's Unite d'Habitation.

The power of historic stadiums to act as urban forces for community integration and harmony should never be underestimated.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 04:20:53 PM
A big car park at that end would just make the surrounding road chaos even worse I reckon.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 04, 2021, 04:56:38 PM
Is the correct answer.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 05:03:15 PM
Who parks around Villa Park anyway these days?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Border villan on March 04, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Who parks around Villa Park anyway these days?

All of us who have to use a car to get to Villa Park and home again, at a guess.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 05:21:19 PM
I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 04, 2021, 05:37:00 PM

They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.

Somebody added photos of all the Midlands clubs' grounds to the "Old Pics of Brum Facebook group, showing the grounds now and then. Here's the old one of Villa Park, with the North Stand looking quite new and impressive compared to the older stands.


(https://i.ibb.co/b2VTx3s/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2VTx3s)
The Holte End looks amazing here. Wish they could of kept it and built all the facilities for it behind it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: glinch on March 04, 2021, 05:47:05 PM
Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on March 04, 2021, 06:11:47 PM

They didn't go to prison but there were a couple of fraud convictions. There was nothing wrong with the stand, it was the best in the country at the time, it just cost more than it should have done.

Somebody added photos of all the Midlands clubs' grounds to the "Old Pics of Brum Facebook group, showing the grounds now and then. Here's the old one of Villa Park, with the North Stand looking quite new and impressive compared to the older stands.


(https://i.ibb.co/b2VTx3s/VP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b2VTx3s)
The Holte End looks amazing here. Wish they could of kept it and built all the facilities for it behind it.

That would almost certainly have ended up costing a lot more than what we did. Of the 3 stands we rebuilt under Ellis the Holte is the last 1 I'd complain about, TR was decent but could easily have been spectacular and the new Witton Lane being named after him is a far more apt tribute to him than I think anyone intended. That there's a genuine argument to be made to replace that before the North Stand shows exactly the lack of foresight that saw us completely fail to capitalise on where we were in the first 5-10 years of the premier league when other clubs were printing money and setting themselves up as the global elite.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Chris Smith on March 04, 2021, 06:33:10 PM
Who parks around Villa Park anyway these days?

Conference and banqueting facilities in Aston need a car park. Thereís little point in having them otherwise.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 04, 2021, 06:38:27 PM
There's still plenty of room for that sort of limited parking even with a much bigger North Stand footprint. The Holte car park is pretty big as well.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: PeterWithe on March 04, 2021, 06:47:27 PM
Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that

No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ktvillan on March 04, 2021, 06:47:51 PM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.

Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.

(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)


I used to favour the wrap around/bowl approach but so many of those stadiums end up soulless (although I do think St James Park is impressive).  I like this one because it retains the 4 separate stands but keeps the corners closed.  It's similar though a lot less symmetrical at Anfield (spit) with 4 distinct stands but joined corner to corner with no gaps -  I think that helps create some of the intensity of the atmosphere at those two stadiums.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 04, 2021, 06:54:51 PM
Signal Iduna Park is a superb football venue. I would love Villa Park to replicate that with any new exterior design paying respect to our history.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 04, 2021, 06:57:38 PM
Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that

No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
I'm sure it was a MECCA bingo.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: glinch on March 04, 2021, 07:01:31 PM
Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that

No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
I'm sure it was a MECCA bingo.

I take it got knocked down in the late 80s/90s ?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Risso on March 04, 2021, 07:14:44 PM
I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.

I never did either when I lived up there, always parked up in the area where the Power League is now so you could jump back on the M6 quickly.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: OCD on March 04, 2021, 07:17:28 PM
The owners must have a grand vision of where they want to go with it and worked backwards to produce a roadmap of sorts. Would be fantastic if we could modernise while incorporating some of the ground's heritage that has been lost over the years.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 04, 2021, 08:20:32 PM
I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.

I never did either when I lived up there, always parked up in the area where the Power League is now so you could jump back on the M6 quickly.

Me too, it's further to walk obviously, but it's only time you'd spend sat on your arse in the car waiting for the traffic to clear. If you're getting back on the M6, it's a good place to park.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 04, 2021, 08:24:07 PM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.

Although for the Witton Lane didn't they have to buy up all the houses immediately behind the stand, move the road back and create that park area?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 05, 2021, 07:06:44 AM
Is an increase of capacity of around 8k worth it for what it would cost ?
It absolutely is. We have always had a top stadium. We currently have 2 stands which are nowhere near that standard. Penny pinching on the Witton lane stand and financial skullduggery on the North Stand are the reasons behind the current state of affairs. 2 brand spanking new state of the art stands would put Villa Park back in it's rightful place as one of England's finest stadiums.

Witton Lane was built on the cheap but the North Stand was state of the art at the time.

Although for the Witton Lane didn't they have to buy up all the houses immediately behind the stand, move the road back and create that park area?

I thought they had to buy up the houses and create the park but I don't think the road has been moved. It's still dead straight now which suggests it's never been moved.

That road is the big issue with the Witton Lane stand. To make a stand with a decent concourse area we'd need to remove the road and I can't see the city council signing that off.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FrankyH on March 05, 2021, 07:38:21 AM
I think the original plan was for the stand to overhang the road far more than it does. Local residents were worried that this would air pollution to linger in Witton Lane under the large structure.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 07:38:59 AM
I don't like reading about how poor our away end is for opposition fans. I want people to come to Villa Park and be blown away.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on March 05, 2021, 07:45:10 AM
I don't like reading about how poor our away end is for opposition fans. I want people to come to Villa Park and be blown away.

I do think shooting away fans is a little harsh Ads. Well, maybe depending on who it is.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 07:47:47 AM
Haha! Serves them right for complaining. Aston Villa: firm, but fair.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on March 05, 2021, 08:22:50 AM
Whats the building behind the Holte End? I dont remember that

No nor me and I must have passed it loads of times, was it a bingo hall?
I'm sure it was a MECCA bingo.

It was then Ellis bought it and it became a supporters club for a while serving dreadful mild in plastic glasses. There was at least one players presentation night held there, certainly after we lost the first Premier League title to Newton Heath. Paul McGrath sat with the supporters all night, accompanied by Yorke.
I remember a sports forum with Deano and Dalian as well.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Duncan Shaw on March 05, 2021, 08:48:53 AM
I drive from the North West and I park nowhere near Villa Park.

I never did either when I lived up there, always parked up in the area where the Power League is now so you could jump back on the M6 quickly.

Me too, it's further to walk obviously, but it's only time you'd spend sat on your arse in the car waiting for the traffic to clear. If you're getting back on the M6, it's a good place to park.
Years ago when I still lived up there we used to park in the old dog track car park at Perry Barr before they built the shopping centre.  Used to amble down to the game with a bag of chips and then a brisk walk back after, past all the queuing cars!  Never stuck in traffic.  But that was then.  Now I drive and park for free at Tamebridge and get the the train in.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 08:50:46 AM
I park the other way down towards the Albion pub, then loop round pump island onto the Express Way. If you stick to the third lane you sail past all the queuing cars and jib your way in onto the M6 North no bother.

I miss that walk.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 05, 2021, 08:55:47 AM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.

Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.

(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)

Internally this looks fantasic and I'd be delighted with that type of layout.  Externally it looks as identikit as any other.

For me there's going to have to be some filling in of corners or we're just not going to have the sort of capacity to compete with other modern stadiums of our competitors.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 05, 2021, 09:13:15 AM
I park the other way down towards the Albion pub, then loop round pump island onto the Express Way. If you stick to the third lane you sail past all the queuing cars and jib your way in onto the M6 North no bother.

I miss that walk.

You're one of THEM!!!!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 09:37:22 AM
Meh you snooze you lose. I'm not queuing in the left hand lane with a load of wallies going down to London or off at Sutton. Mirrors, indicate, negotiate. Easy peasy!

Tooodalooo motherfuckers!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 05, 2021, 09:52:24 AM
Do you drive an Audi or a BMW?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 10:49:08 AM
I clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.

Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 05, 2021, 10:59:51 AM
I clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.

Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.

I know you're being provocative so I really shouldn't rise to it, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people cutting across the carriageway, almost causing accidents and royally pissing off those who queued safely.  Then there's the point that if everyone did what you did, the whole carriageway would grind to a halt, preventing those travelling south on the M6 or off to North Brum from getting there.  You only have to look at the state of the roads around junctions in countries which don't have a culture of queuing to see what an absolute mess it is.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 05, 2021, 11:03:53 AM
I clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.

Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.

Those of us carrying on the Tyburn Rd have to break sharply so you can push in the queue, ya bellend. Next time, if you hear a horn and see a man offering a Nescafe handshake, that will be me.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 05, 2021, 11:25:07 AM
Haha!

I'm not being particularly serious but I'm not being proactive either. I'm coming from the Pump Island entrance and you Salford Circus lot (Lower Holte types no doubt) are all inching about getting on. What is wrong with over taking that lot, then indicating across half a mile up the expressway and getting safely over?

Lee, I probably won't notice, I'll be too busy waving my top hat out the window shouting tally ho! as I over take all the Salford Circus oiks.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 05, 2021, 11:38:10 AM
Haha!

I'm not being particularly serious but I'm not being proactive either. I'm coming from the Pump Island entrance and you Salford Circus lot (Lower Holte types no doubt) are all inching about getting on. What is wrong with over taking that lot, then indicating across half a mile up the expressway and getting safely over?

Lee, I probably won't notice, I'll be too busy waving my top hat out the window shouting tally ho! as I over take all the Salford Circus oiks.

Grrrrr!!!! **waves fist angrily**
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: nigel on March 05, 2021, 10:08:15 PM
I've always thought our expansion model would be along the lines of Borussia Dortmund's. Four distinct stands still, but with corners filled in to amplify the atmosphere.

Expand the Holte out over Trinity Road. Mirror the Holte at the North Stand end. Do as much as we can to take the Witton back over the road.

(https://i.ibb.co/mXchTDH/Banner-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXchTDH)

Internally this looks fantasic and I'd be delighted with that type of layout.  Externally it looks as identikit as any other.

For me there's going to have to be some filling in of corners or we're just not going to have the sort of capacity to compete with other modern stadiums of our competitors.

Doesnít look too bad
(http://www.eventlocation-stadion.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/bvb_ev_ca_titel01.jpg)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 05, 2021, 11:47:17 PM
If we were going to move, I'd prefer moving closer to the city centre. But I don't think it's necessary - rebuild the North Stand to have a similar capacity to the Holte End, which I think would take the capacity up to about 49000. I think that's fine for now, and still leaves a bit of scope to upgrade the Witton Lane stand.

Whenever I mention that I support Villa, at least to fans who actually go to watch their clubs, they almost always mention how much they like visiting Villa Park, and think it looks brilliant. It must have the same kind of effect on players. I also think you'd lose that completely with a wraparound stadium. I'd rather we stick with a slightly smaller ground (if you can call a 50k capacity ground 'small') but make it stand out.

I don't want a carbon copy of the Holte End facade. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but I'd rather we have 4 unique stands that any other club would class as their 'main' stand. Love this stand at Ibrox, for example. I'm not the world's biggest Sevco fan, but I do think their ground looks absolutely brilliant

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIH9526R108/V-AuAORnX5I/AAAAAAAACIE/PuoHVInZs1oPCR1Gl4cFgwjKtIyrbV5qACLcB/s1600/Ibrox_Bill_Struth_Main_Stand.JPG)

not really a rangers supporter, but Ibrox looks fantastic. I really wish we couldíve done something like the pic above with the trinity redevelopment. Theyíve even got a badge like our old old old old one in the wall. Classy (apart from the financial irregularities and scummy fans)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 06, 2021, 12:10:59 AM
The owners must have a grand vision of where they want to go with it and worked backwards to produce a roadmap of sorts. Would be fantastic if we could modernise while incorporating some of the ground's heritage that has been lost over the years.
i was thinking it would be great to get input from supporters on potential designs etc. but if the diversity of views expressed just in this site are anything to go by weíd never agree on anything and nothing would get done. Thatís not a criticism by the way, just an observation. I like the plans we had that got stymied by WWII, where it looked like there were going to be Holte Ends on 3 sides of the ground and a capacity of around 110-120,000. Imagine being inside that with a decent Villa side - and trying to find somewhere to park!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 06, 2021, 12:22:31 AM
I clearly used the word indicate, so you have your answer.

Honestly why would anybody queue? Overtake in the right hand lanes, traffic opens up and I get over in plenty of time.

I know you're being provocative so I really shouldn't rise to it, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen people cutting across the carriageway, almost causing accidents and royally pissing off those who queued safely.  Then there's the point that if everyone did what you did, the whole carriageway would grind to a halt, preventing those travelling south on the M6 or off to North Brum from getting there.  You only have to look at the state of the roads around junctions in countries which don't have a culture of queuing to see what an absolute mess it is.
ha ha made me laugh- I read it in a Happy Mondays Ďthat scaffoldingís been rendered dangerousí voice - canít remember the song title
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 06, 2021, 12:27:54 AM
ĎBrain Deadí was the song
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on March 06, 2021, 06:58:12 AM
Archibald Leitch innit. Designed Ibrox and Villa Park.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Steve67 on March 06, 2021, 07:06:32 AM
If you build it, they will come!  Fill in the corners of the North Stand and stick the away fans in a bottom corner so we are above them and drown them out.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 06, 2021, 07:46:55 AM
A new North that wraps around from the Trinity would look very impressive.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on March 06, 2021, 07:54:39 AM
If we were going to move, I'd prefer moving closer to the city centre. But I don't think it's necessary - rebuild the North Stand to have a similar capacity to the Holte End, which I think would take the capacity up to about 49000. I think that's fine for now, and still leaves a bit of scope to upgrade the Witton Lane stand.

Whenever I mention that I support Villa, at least to fans who actually go to watch their clubs, they almost always mention how much they like visiting Villa Park, and think it looks brilliant. It must have the same kind of effect on players. I also think you'd lose that completely with a wraparound stadium. I'd rather we stick with a slightly smaller ground (if you can call a 50k capacity ground 'small') but make it stand out.

I don't want a carbon copy of the Holte End facade. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it, but I'd rather we have 4 unique stands that any other club would class as their 'main' stand. Love this stand at Ibrox, for example. I'm not the world's biggest Sevco fan, but I do think their ground looks absolutely brilliant

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIH9526R108/V-AuAORnX5I/AAAAAAAACIE/PuoHVInZs1oPCR1Gl4cFgwjKtIyrbV5qACLcB/s1600/Ibrox_Bill_Struth_Main_Stand.JPG)

not really a rangers supporter, but Ibrox looks fantastic. I really wish we couldíve done something like the pic above with the trinity redevelopment. Theyíve even got a badge like our old old old old one in the wall. Classy (apart from the financial irregularities and scummy fans)

Yep, Rangers are the Scottish rags for me but the preservation of that stand is magnificent. Due to it's position I'm not sure the Trinity would've been as easy but I'm sure it could've been attempted. Whenever Ellis is mentioned that's all I ever think of, his legacy for me is one of unthinking vandalism.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 06, 2021, 10:23:50 AM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 06, 2021, 10:45:49 AM
I saw the Ibrox main stand on sky news and my heart sank a little bit in thought of the old trinity.  I think a new north stand with a nod to the old trinity with maybe a gable and a balcony entrance.  With regards the current trinity I wish they would cover the metal sheeting with pictures of players from yester year ?  .  Finally maybe stretch out the witton lane to over the road to allow more space . Something on the lines of 52000 , beautiful
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 06, 2021, 11:07:36 AM
I stopped in the Ibrox Hotel when working in Glasgow in the 90s. As its name suggests, it was just down from the ground. That huge facade towering above the road was very impressive, it oozed intimidation upon the interloper. Unlike the hotel, which had to be close to being the shitholest of shitholes I've ever had the misfortune to end up in.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 06, 2021, 11:36:16 AM
I saw the Ibrox main stand on sky news and my heart sank a little bit in thought of the old trinity.  I think a new north stand with a nod to the old trinity with maybe a gable and a balcony entrance.  With regards the current trinity I wish they would cover the metal sheeting with pictures of players from yester year ?  .  Finally maybe stretch out the witton lane to over the road to allow more space . Something on the lines of 52000 , beautiful
The Main Stand at Ibrox and the Trinity Rd were both superb emamples of Archibald Leitch design. Rangers kept their gem by expanding the original. It was a very tricky operation as they craned in the third tier over the top of the original stand and it was well worth the effort in my opinion. We could have kept ours but Ellis had a way of doing things on the cheap which really shows. Knocking the Trinity Rd stand down on the sly was an act of vandalism. The new Trinity is a great place to watch football from but the exterior looks cheap and tacky. He did redeem himself somewhat with Holte End but his corner shop mentality is stamped on the ground. When the Witton Lane stand does get rebuilt properly it should also get a new more fitting name.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: West Derby Villan on March 06, 2021, 11:51:24 AM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?

Yeah I recall them saying that as well......I think the corner shopkeeper decided that would be too expensive......
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 06, 2021, 12:12:04 PM
Does the original report suggest that any major revamp of Villa Park is likely before 2030 or if it will just be cosmetic? If so, that's a bit disappointing. The dated parts of the ground are just going to get worse. By 2030, I can see a fair chunk of Villa fans in favour of a move away from VP - "Look at Everton. Goodison was showing its age and their new stadium has helped keep them in the top four" etc.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: OCD on March 06, 2021, 12:44:54 PM
The owners must have a grand vision of where they want to go with it and worked backwards to produce a roadmap of sorts. Would be fantastic if we could modernise while incorporating some of the ground's heritage that has been lost over the years.
i was thinking it would be great to get input from supporters on potential designs etc. but if the diversity of views expressed just in this site are anything to go by weíd never agree on anything and nothing would get done. Thatís not a criticism by the way, just an observation. I like the plans we had that got stymied by WWII, where it looked like there were going to be Holte Ends on 3 sides of the ground and a capacity of around 110-120,000. Imagine being inside that with a decent Villa side - and trying to find somewhere to park!

Would be great when it was full. Not so much when it's 50% full. Need to walk before we can run.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: saunders_heroes on March 06, 2021, 01:41:20 PM
We should have stadium of at least 50k capacity just to keep up with every other similar size club. We donít want to be left behind.
I think weíd definitely fill it as well.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 06, 2021, 01:53:12 PM
I'd like at least 51,000 just so we have over 50,000 regularly. My obsessive side wouldn't like lots of crowds of 49,9xx.

51,000 doesn't seem recklessly ambitious to me. While we have a 40,000 capacity stadium down the road seems the ideal time to expand, or we could just do it North Stand then Witton Lane and have maybe a couple of seasons playing at a reduced capacity.

I do think they will wait until we have had at least a season of full or near full houses post-Covid before making any announcement, which seems entirely sensible.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on March 06, 2021, 02:49:50 PM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?

Yeah I recall them saying that as well......I think the corner shopkeeper decided that would be too expensive......

I thought they were going to do the North Stan soon after? It feels like there has been talk of a new North Stand for the guts of 20 years?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 06, 2021, 03:11:32 PM
I'm sure when they announced that it was being redeveloped, they promised they would keep the gable. Have I dreamt that, or were they lying bastards?

Yeah I recall them saying that as well......I think the corner shopkeeper decided that would be too expensive......

The whole of that project was shrouded in supposition. The old stand was thought to be listed when it wasn't. We thought they'd said the gable would remain but they didn't.  Mark Ansell, from memory, told me that they were looking to keep some parts intact but nothing was said for definite.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 07, 2021, 08:13:26 AM
Nothing could be historically a more appropriate epitaph to HDE than history erased, replaced by cut price mediocrity.   If it had not already been used on Margaret Thatcher the epithet that he knew the price of everything and the value of nothing fits Doug Ellis to a tee.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Virgil Caine on March 07, 2021, 09:11:01 AM
Is there any reason why the Trinity Road wasnít listed as a building of historical interest? Are there any stands in the football league that can boast such a listing? My only recollection of any commitment to maintaining the fabric of Trinity Road stand is hazy to say the least but I am sure that Ansell did give some assurances, but as DW has said they were probably subject to interpretation. The only thing I did find was an article written by Mac in When Saturday Comes back in 2001. Whatever, it was an act of vandalism which I will never forgive HDE for.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on March 07, 2021, 09:22:32 AM
I think the East Stand at Highbury was listed? The old facade had to be incorporated into the new flats that were built there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: PeterWithe on March 07, 2021, 09:27:11 AM
Are there many stands at grounds listed? I think the cottage at Fulham was/is, not a stand though of course.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: exigo on March 07, 2021, 10:52:28 AM
At least two of the stands down the road are listing.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 07, 2021, 10:58:10 AM
At least two of the stands down the road are listing.

They saved the back to backs in Hurst St , so there is a precedent for saving slum dwellings.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on March 07, 2021, 11:01:52 AM
Iíd love us to replace the North Stand with a large, steep single-tier end, similar to Spurs or the Anfield Kop. Maybe the capacity could be slightly bigger than the Kop so we could say that both ends of our ground are bigger and better than the stand that the football world fawns over.

Should we need to replace lost executive box facilities then we could build another tower with balconies in one corner, similar to the Holte / Trinity corner.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 07, 2021, 11:11:48 AM
Is there any reason why the Trinity Road wasnít listed as a building of historical interest? Are there any stands in the football league that can boast such a listing? My only recollection of any commitment to maintaining the fabric of Trinity Road stand is hazy to say the least but I am sure that Ansell did give some assurances, but as DW has said they were probably subject to interpretation. The only thing I did find was an article written by Mac in When Saturday Comes back in 2001. Whatever, it was an act of vandalism which I will never forgive HDE for.

It couldn't be listed because it had been altered too much.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: PGW on March 07, 2021, 11:15:23 AM
At least two of the stands down the road are listing.

The not much Kop and the Tilting End
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Chris Smith on March 07, 2021, 11:26:56 AM
Is there any reason why the Trinity Road wasnít listed as a building of historical interest? Are there any stands in the football league that can boast such a listing? My only recollection of any commitment to maintaining the fabric of Trinity Road stand is hazy to say the least but I am sure that Ansell did give some assurances, but as DW has said they were probably subject to interpretation. The only thing I did find was an article written by Mac in When Saturday Comes back in 2001. Whatever, it was an act of vandalism which I will never forgive HDE for.

It couldn't be listed because it had been altered too much.

Thatís why a building being listed is not necessarily an advantage. On the one hand it offers protection against the worst excesses of architectural vandalism but it is also a barrier to essential modernisation. In a pervious job I came up against this in trying to install modern ICT systems into a large Grade I listed Victorian building. I reckon that it doubled the cost and tripled the timescale.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 08, 2021, 01:30:59 AM
The demolition of the old Trinity very neatly illustrates DEís corner shop mentality. A long-term plan wouldíve been necessary to retain it, conceived even before the Holte End and Witton Lane stands were redeveloped, in order to compensate for the lower capacity and reduced facilities when compared to a complete new build. Mr Aston Villa didnít have this vision, he approached each stand as a stand-alone project, one after the other.

I enjoyed listening to Gary Naylor contextualising Aston Villaís early 80s success in the brilliant Nessun Dorma (https://play.acast.com/s/nessundorma/s4ep8-astonvilla-sgloryyears-1980-82-part1) podcast, touching on the London and Manchester press, and the role of Villa Park in the collective football consciousness.

I always think that Birmingham has a strange relationship with its past, and doesnít value its own history enough. Perhaps the fact that Manzoniís destruction of parts of the historic city was intended to usher in a progressive future, but instead accompanied economic downturn, is in some way to blame. You might think that either (like Manzoni) there wasnít anything valuable to lose, or (like his opponents) that much of what was valuable had been lost. Villa Park is almost a microcosm of this, with HDE in the Manzoni role.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 08, 2021, 09:14:41 AM
The demolition of the old Trinity very neatly illustrates DEís corner shop mentality. A long-term plan wouldíve been necessary to retain it, conceived even before the Holte End and Witton Lane stands were redeveloped, in order to compensate for the lower capacity and reduced facilities when compared to a complete new build. Mr Aston Villa didnít have this vision, he approached each stand as a stand-alone project, one after the other.

I enjoyed listening to Gary Naylor contextualising Aston Villaís early 80s success in the brilliant Nessun Dorma (https://play.acast.com/s/nessundorma/s4ep8-astonvilla-sgloryyears-1980-82-part1) podcast, touching on the London and Manchester press, and the role of Villa Park in the collective football consciousness.

I always think that Birmingham has a strange relationship with its past, and doesnít value its own history enough. Perhaps the fact that Manzoniís destruction of parts of the historic city was intended to usher in a progressive future, but instead accompanied economic downturn, is in some way to blame. You might think that either (like Manzoni) there wasnít anything valuable to lose, or (like his opponents) that much of what was valuable had been lost. Villa Park is almost a microcosm of this, with HDE in the Manzoni role.
It seems to be a running theme with big cities.  Manchester's even worse for it - it's as if they're ashamed of it's past as an industrial city and are intent on knocking all the life & soul out of the place.  Really don't understand it, because personally I love that victorian, red brick architecture.

I've said this before to several groups of people - on the railway between Brum & Wolves, towards the Wolves end, there is (or was) a rail/canal interchange.  It's maybe not totally stunning or anything, but to me it's a really interesting bit of industrial heritage.  In most places rail replaced the canals, but in the WM there was at least a proportion of industry that was as well, or better, served by canals for perhaps up to the era of mass road transport.  It's just been left to decay, though, rather than saying that actually there's something interesting & unique about this place.  That it might be worth questioning why that was the case, and then maybe seeing if parallels can be drawn with other walks of life.  You know, people might learn something if you show them things they can learn from .. it's infuriating.

Anyway, rant about that aside.  I know it's heresy, but I don't really mind that the old Trinity Road stand was demolished.  What I do mind is that no parts of the old stand were incorporated in to the new one, and the new one is - in comparison - utterly bland.  I just don't get it at all.  Surely, with any football club, your ground is a massive part of the club's identity - much more than players or managers, which with only ever temporary (with a vanishingly small number of exceptions - Stanley Matthews, Bill Shankly, or William McGregor from our own parish).  I just don't get why you wouldn't make sure that all of your stands, but particularly your main stand, don't scream out at the top of their voice to make sure every player wants to play there, every manager wants to manage there, and every fan wants to go there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 09:33:50 AM
You couldn't retain it. It was small and pokey with restricted views owing to the posts. It had a lovely facade, but given how small it was, it would have been impossible to keep it in the footprint of a significantly larger stand.

It would have been nice to have copied the exterior of the Holte and built something like that in homage, with stained glass perhaps on the first level etc.

What was built took Lerner to finish mind, so there's no doubt HDE did it on the cheap.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 08, 2021, 09:56:25 AM
You couldn't retain it. It was small and pokey with restricted views owing to the posts. It had a lovely facade, but given how small it was, it would have been impossible to keep it in the footprint of a significantly larger stand.

It would have been nice to have copied the exterior of the Holte and built something like that in homage, with stained glass perhaps on the first level etc.

What was built took Lerner to finish mind, so there's no doubt HDE did it on the cheap.
i am sure a compromise between retaining and bulldozing the whole lot could have been found.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 10:00:26 AM
Seems senseless to me to compromise the foot print of your new build to save an aesthetic that you would have been able to replicate on probably a much grander scale.

The area around the McGregor statue now for example, where the actual entrance is would have allowed something similar. When you're inside to go up into the executive boxes, there's a double flight of stairs, so it would have been very similar, albeit bigger, to have built a stair case externally leading to the first floor.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 10:19:36 AM
The advantage that Rangers had is they had space at either end to create new access to the third tier, but they also lost the gable and press box from the roof, which was a big part of the character of the stand.

Knocking down the Trinity was one Ellis's worst decisions - it needed imagination and foresight to incorporate the stand into the future plan for the stadium - neither his strongest points.


What could have been done? I think there were two options.

1. Keep the external walls of the stand and have fewer seats but more corporate housed in a new stand - then replace the lost seats with the redevelopment of the north stand and witton lane. 15 year plan probably - and some short-term pain.

2. Replace the old stand with some as architecturally unique as Leitch's stand. Not easy, as you'd have a group saying make it look like the past and the other wanting an "interesting" modern design - I think some of the new ballparks in the States have done a good job of the former - Yankee Stadium for example, but "modern" architecture is marmite.

What we got was a decent pitch-facing experience - finished-off by Lerner for almost as much as the stand cost to build originally - but externally the stand is as poor design as anything that has been built in the city in the last 30 years. No focal point, no style, nothing unique. Even edgbaston's new stand, which was constructed on a very tight budget, at least has some of these attributes.

Here is a thought - if we are not moving site - the new north stand is built 5-10 further north, the new witton lane also shifts northwards and uses the space in front of the first row and incorporates an overhang from the second tier. The Holte and Trinity can then have a few extra rows added at the front. Job done - 55,000 - 60,000 seats ready for our Champions League nights.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 10:28:47 AM
The exterior is guilty of being generic and bland. Inside the stand it is good, pitch side it is good. Outside it could be anywhere.

That's why the Holte is for me the best stand in football. It looks brilliant outside. The brickwork, glass, mosaic, the stairs leading up. It's grandiose and a huge nod to the past. Inside its spacious and pitch side it is vast and imposing.

I would love them to put an external facade on the Trinity and think any new North stand ought to meet a similar 3 stage criteria.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 08, 2021, 10:47:56 AM
Seems senseless to me to compromise the foot print of your new build to save an aesthetic that you would have been able to replicate on probably a much grander scale.

The area around the McGregor statue now for example, where the actual entrance is would have allowed something similar. When you're inside to go up into the executive boxes, there's a double flight of stairs, so it would have been very similar, albeit bigger, to have built a stair case externally leading to the first floor.
Yeah, I agree with this completely.  I don't think it was at all necessary to keep the old Trinity Road stand in place - it'd changed, and been improved upon - since Archibald Leitch first constructed it.  But we could've recreated the aesthetic with the new stand, or improved on it - maybe taken in a few highlights from his other work.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 10:57:00 AM
The brief to the architects should have been - reflect the history of the club and the ground, stained glass, staircases, mosaics, claret and blue balustrades and a gable. Make it imposing during the day, magical at night.

And every fan that enters has to get a taste of the grandeur of stand and the club- as they did with the original.

That said, the original almost bankrupted the club... but worth every penny.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 08, 2021, 11:01:42 AM
A full Villa Park at night, bouncing, one of the greatest places on earth. The atmosphere at the Everton game at the start of last season, it was like a release of a decade of shite.

The brief as you say for the new North and or Wittion should be;

Pitch side - large, imposing, intimidating
Internally - vast and spacious
Externally - grand, nods to 19th century origins (basically go onto the Holte car park and make some notes of what you see)

I cant think of many stands like the Holte up and down the land really, from the outside.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 11:09:35 AM
Simon Inglis says it better than me that the Holte is a pastiche of the Trinity, which itself is a pastiche of Aston Hall...

I like the Holte - and there is nothing like it anywhere else in football. West Ham had a go at something different with their (now demolished) sandcastles, which looked kitsch and tacky, but other than that it's all glass and banners.

So that's the balance, character or kitsch - at the end of the day it's a football stadium and not likely to win the Stirling Prize - but it would be great to be able to have something that is unique to us and reflects the achievements of the club.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Risso on March 08, 2021, 11:19:47 AM
A full Villa Park at night, bouncing, one of the greatest places on earth. The atmosphere at the Everton game at the start of last season, it was like a release of a decade of shite.

The brief as you say for the new North and or Wittion should be;

Pitch side - large, imposing, intimidating
Internally - vast and spacious
Externally - grand, nods to 19th century origins (basically go onto the Holte car park and make some notes of what you see)

I cant think of many stands like the Holte up and down the land really, from the outside.

The atmosphere at the start was brilliant. The atmosphere at the end with the last minute goal was simply sensational.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 08, 2021, 11:45:35 AM
You couldn't retain it. It was small and pokey with restricted views owing to the posts. It had a lovely facade, but given how small it was, it would have been impossible to keep it in the footprint of a significantly larger stand.

It would have been nice to have copied the exterior of the Holte and built something like that in homage, with stained glass perhaps on the first level etc.

What was built took Lerner to finish mind, so there's no doubt HDE did it on the cheap.
i am sure a compromise between retaining and bulldozing the whole lot could have been found.

Building around it. Which sounds a bit stupid, granted, but it would have been possible I reckon.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 08, 2021, 11:49:58 AM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?

Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.

In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 08, 2021, 11:59:07 AM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?

Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.

In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.

You'd be imposing on the housing behind Witton Lane.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on March 08, 2021, 12:24:55 PM
If they could nod to the past in 1995 when building the Holte End I just cannot understand why they couldn't do that five years later with the Trinity?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 12:29:53 PM
Sinking the pitch and begin to move the ground 10m north with the rebuilding of the north stand. The Trinity was built to be extended at the north end and then you'd have to better use the space in front of the front row of the witton and have a few rows overhang with an upper tier.

Wouldn't be cheap and means long-term planning. Also assumes the sightlines would still work from the back of the holte and row zzz of the upper trinity.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 08, 2021, 01:07:25 PM
Where would we play our home games if any rebuilding affected the existing pitch?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdward on March 08, 2021, 01:14:29 PM
Where would we play our home games if any rebuilding affected the existing pitch?
The Lucas sports ground down Moor Lane by Witton Cemetery, or Alexander Stadium?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 08, 2021, 01:27:28 PM
40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: DB on March 08, 2021, 01:34:31 PM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?

Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.

In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.

I like that, would they use existing Triniry Rd stand and wrap it all the way around to the other side of the Holte or start from scratch?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 08, 2021, 01:57:01 PM
40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.

I think it's only going to hold 30k now, and the two temporary ends will be completely open to the elements.  Not sure if I'd fancy sitting in a temporary stand in the pissing rain in the middle of January!

If we redevelop a stand at a time I don't think we would need to move anywhere - when we were rebuilding the Holte and the Trinity we were able to use parts of the stands for some of the season, and even if not we are only losing about 7k off the capacity without the North Stand.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 08, 2021, 02:29:35 PM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?

Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.

In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.

You'd be imposing on the housing behind Witton Lane.

And building over the road would do nothing to improve the concourse areas in the lower Witton, which is a large part of the problem with the current stand.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 08, 2021, 03:18:49 PM
The demolition of the old Trinity very neatly illustrates DEís corner shop mentality. A long-term plan wouldíve been necessary to retain it, conceived even before the Holte End and Witton Lane stands were redeveloped, in order to compensate for the lower capacity and reduced facilities when compared to a complete new build. Mr Aston Villa didnít have this vision, he approached each stand as a stand-alone project, one after the other.

I enjoyed listening to Gary Naylor contextualising Aston Villaís early 80s success in the brilliant Nessun Dorma (https://play.acast.com/s/nessundorma/s4ep8-astonvilla-sgloryyears-1980-82-part1) podcast, touching on the London and Manchester press, and the role of Villa Park in the collective football consciousness.

I always think that Birmingham has a strange relationship with its past, and doesnít value its own history enough. Perhaps the fact that Manzoniís destruction of parts of the historic city was intended to usher in a progressive future, but instead accompanied economic downturn, is in some way to blame. You might think that either (like Manzoni) there wasnít anything valuable to lose, or (like his opponents) that much of what was valuable had been lost. Villa Park is almost a microcosm of this, with HDE in the Manzoni role.
Anyone who has an interest in Birmingham history should try what myself and a few others did a couple of years back. We met up in town then joined the canal at Brindley Place and walked it all the way to the Swan and Mitre before heading to Villa Park. A couple of bottles of beer on the way it was a great way to get to Villa park and really interesting perspective on the city's canals. It was knackering though but we took it steady and got to the Swan and Mitre in about an hour.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 08, 2021, 05:01:12 PM
Let me know if you do it again.  I would enjoy that.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 08, 2021, 05:16:24 PM
Let me know if you do it again.  I would enjoy that.
I will put it on here next time we do it
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 08, 2021, 05:21:13 PM
40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.

I think it's only going to hold 30k now, and the two temporary ends will be completely open to the elements.  Not sure if I'd fancy sitting in a temporary stand in the pissing rain in the middle of January!

If we redevelop a stand at a time I don't think we would need to move anywhere - when we were rebuilding the Holte and the Trinity we were able to use parts of the stands for some of the season, and even if not we are only losing about 7k off the capacity without the North Stand.

It really does sound like Birmingham is determined to put on the shittest, cheapest games possible. We've already decided we aren't going to bother with an athletes' village. Either do it properly or don't fucking bother.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 08, 2021, 05:32:14 PM
I will see if I can dig out some of the drawings we did of the canal basin behind Baskerville House to thwart Manzoni and National Car Parks.  We lost.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 08, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
40,000 seat commonwealth games stadium. Good opportunity to get it sorted.

I think it's only going to hold 30k now, and the two temporary ends will be completely open to the elements.  Not sure if I'd fancy sitting in a temporary stand in the pissing rain in the middle of January!

If we redevelop a stand at a time I don't think we would need to move anywhere - when we were rebuilding the Holte and the Trinity we were able to use parts of the stands for some of the season, and even if not we are only losing about 7k off the capacity without the North Stand.

It really does sound like Birmingham is determined to put on the shittest, cheapest games possible. We've already decided we aren't going to bother with an athletes' village. Either do it properly or don't fucking bother.
It's not so much Birmingham it's central government. There's been nowhere near the type of investment in the city that Manchester had when they hosted the commonwealth games.Man City had a ground built for them that I believe cost them £1 and a brand new velodrome was built. Birmingham has been shortchanged by central government once again.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: john2710 on March 08, 2021, 09:03:08 PM
A full Villa Park at night, bouncing, one of the greatest places on earth. The atmosphere at the Everton game at the start of last season, it was like a release of a decade of shite.

The atmosphere at the start was brilliant. The atmosphere at the end with the last minute goal was simply sensational.

I've been lucky enough to be inside Villa Park on a few occasions where the atmosphere was rocking. But that atmosphere vs Everton was unbelievable.

From memory the only ones that come close are the FA Cup game vs Arsenal in 1974 when Sammy Morgan scared the life out of Bob Wilson & the Tranmere game.

And when we're all there soon, it will be every bit as good. I can't wait...

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 08, 2021, 09:12:31 PM
I don't think I'll ever witness an atmosphere at VP like the Atletico Madrid game in the late 90s.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 08, 2021, 11:27:54 PM
I'll say now what I've said many times and will say many times again.

Villa Park is often like a morgue. You could walk past and not know there was a match on. And sometimes it's got the greatest atmosphere in football.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: steamer on March 09, 2021, 05:27:58 AM
I would throw in the Utd LC Semi with those games
I watched the Everton game on the TV, at 63 i should stop eating onion sandwiches as they have a tearful effect on me
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 09, 2021, 09:00:13 AM
I remember the lows inside Villa Park as vividly as the highs.  When it was full but still like a morgue.  You have to submit to these lows.  Let them enter your soul for the rest of your life so that when you bounce back you can almost touch the stars.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Scratchins on March 09, 2021, 09:13:55 AM
I don't think I'll ever witness an atmosphere at VP like the Atletico Madrid game in the late 90s.

My favourite too. I've said before, it felt like a Tom & Jerry cartoon when Stan scored with  the stands bursting out and back again.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Clive W on March 09, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
I would throw in the Utd LC Semi with those games
I watched the Everton game on the TV, at 63 i should stop eating onion sandwiches as they have a tearful effect on me
Or how about Jan 1981 2-0 against Liverpool?
40 years ago but can still hear myself screaming:-
ďGo on Dennis!!!!Ē
ďGo on Dennis!!!!Ē
ďGo on Dennis!!!!Ē
ďGoalllllllll!!!!!Ē
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:06:38 AM
Anyone who has an interest in Birmingham history should try what myself and a few others did a couple of years back. We met up in town then joined the canal at Brindley Place and walked it all the way to the Swan and Mitre before heading to Villa Park. A couple of bottles of beer on the way it was a great way to get to Villa park and really interesting perspective on the city's canals. It was knackering though but we took it steady and got to the Swan and Mitre in about an hour.
That's a great idea for something to do pre-match.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:11:41 AM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?

Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.

In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.

You'd be imposing on the housing behind Witton Lane.

And building over the road would do nothing to improve the concourse areas in the lower Witton, which is a large part of the problem with the current stand.
Yes, I don't think building over roads is ever a very good idea. It just about works on Trinity Road because it is open to the park on the one side, and it's only covered for a slice off the corner of the ground, but imagine what the entire length of Witton Lane stand would be like as a covered space, especially for pedestrians on a non-match night. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Martin Carruthers on March 09, 2021, 11:17:29 AM
Loath as I am to praise something in the Lambert era, but the atmosphere in the 6-1 v Sunderland was brilliant.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 09, 2021, 11:41:21 AM
The Liverpool FAC match in 86 where they beat us 2-0,we were a lot later than usual, but still made it for k.o. You could hear the Holte full on from the expressway flyover: who the fkn ell are you? Me and my mate just grinned at each other and almost ran to the ground.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:51:08 AM
I'd almost have no issue with a bowl-type effect if they rebuilt the North Stand. but leave the Holte as a stand on it's own, I guess actually that would then be a horseshoe?

Anyway, I reckon we could get planning permission to build the Witton Stand over the road, as we have with the Trinity. I also think there's a huge amount of space to re-do the North as a monster of a stand.

In terms of capacity to aim for, I think 50k is conservative, we should go for more.
I'm quite firmly against a bowl or even a horseshoe as it is so inconsistent with the character of the ground, and because it will never be completely successful due to the various constraints. Much better to embrace the notion of four individual stands I say, in the same way that Liverpool have. They have obviously decided that Anfield in broadly its current form is completely integral to their DNA.

As I wrote in a separate reply, I don't think building over roads is ever very successful. To extend the Witton Lane stand I think you need to start buying up houses on Holte Road in the same way that Liverpool did. There is obviously a danger of unsettling the local community, which is why a masterplan would be so important, to demonstrate some wider benefits.

I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 09, 2021, 12:13:30 PM
Loath as I am to praise something in the Lambert era, but the atmosphere in the 6-1 v Sunderland was brilliant.

I remember being absolutely buzzing coming out of that game, and playing the Clash on the car stereo really loud all the way home.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 09, 2021, 12:24:38 PM
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.

The North Stand currently holds 7k.  Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k.  Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.

Et voila!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: rjp on March 09, 2021, 12:30:41 PM
I have fond memories of Athletic Bilbao in 97.  When we're on it, night games at Villa are something very special.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Martin Carruthers on March 09, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Their fans were brilliant as well.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: JuanMartinez on March 09, 2021, 12:47:43 PM
That whole UEFA cup run brought electric to VP legs.

I actually think the Steau Bucharest atmosphere was the best as it was the first time we had to come from being behind in a tie and it got us to the last 8.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: in exile on March 09, 2021, 01:47:40 PM
I know it goes against the grain, but I love Villa Park as it is.
I also know we need to progress but I'm dreading the changes whenever they are. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 09, 2021, 01:56:35 PM
A rebuilt North Stand to mirror the Holte (with additional corporate facilities) would take us up to c. 50k, and presumably wouldn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things.  That's probably all we can do realistically without a rebuild where we shift the stadium 10 yards into the North Stand car park, and to be honest would do us for the next 10 years. If we are consistently successful at that point, then a wholescale redevelopment might be the only way to go.

There is plenty of precedent for building stands that end up only being used for a few years (Filbert Street being one where they build a large new main stand about 10 years before they moved completely), so it would pay for itself in that time as long as we remain competitive on the pitch.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 09, 2021, 02:32:56 PM
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.

The North Stand currently holds 7k.  Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k.  Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.

Et voila!
Whilst I'd kind of love a 'yellow wall' type stand I'm a bit unsure about building a stand that usurps the Hote as the 'home end.'  Would it split out most vocal support?  I know these are first world problems but see what I mean?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 09, 2021, 02:49:22 PM
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.

The North Stand currently holds 7k.  Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k.  Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.

Et voila!
Whilst I'd kind of love a 'yellow wall' type stand I'm a bit unsure about building a stand that usurps the Hote as the 'home end.'  Would it split out most vocal support?  I know these are first world problems but see what I mean?

The Holte has a capacity of 13.5k so if we have ambitions of Villa Park holding north of 50k we need to accept that either the Holte has to go or it's not going to be the biggest stand any more.

The North Stand is the one in most desperate need of a bulldozer - I'd rather we do that properly than worry about "splitting" the home support.  When Villa Park is really rocking, every stand is making noise, so a lively North Stand only adds to the atmosphere.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 09, 2021, 03:11:56 PM
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.

The North Stand currently holds 7k.  Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k.  Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.

Et voila!
Whilst I'd kind of love a 'yellow wall' type stand I'm a bit unsure about building a stand that usurps the Hote as the 'home end.'  Would it split out most vocal support?  I know these are first world problems but see what I mean?

The Holte has a capacity of 13.5k so if we have ambitions of Villa Park holding north of 50k we need to accept that either the Holte has to go or it's not going to be the biggest stand any more.

The North Stand is the one in most desperate need of a bulldozer - I'd rather we do that properly than worry about "splitting" the home support.  When Villa Park is really rocking, every stand is making noise, so a lively North Stand only adds to the atmosphere.

I wouldn't have a problem with the Holte being the smaller end stand, make people feel like they have to earn the right to be in there!  When they do the next stage of redevelopment at Anfield I believe the Kop (spits) will be the smallest stand there, so again it's not unprecedented.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 05:25:23 PM
I agree that as the ultimate destination 50k is probably too conservative. It would obviously be fine for the time being, but if the ambition is to consistently challenge for the top six places, then I'm not convinced that it would be worth investing what would be required into one stand, without knowing that there was some way of getting closer to 60k. Everton for example are building a 55k stadium, knowing that it could be expanded if necessary.


The North Stand currently holds 7k.  Dortmund's Yellow Wall is the best stand in the world (outside of VP obviously!) and holds 25k.  Stick another 18k on to our capacity and you're at 60k.

Et voila!
I think the yellow wall holds 25k and a large amount is due to its width. It wraps around the sides and they're included in its capacity. The Spurs end is similar and holds 17k.The Holte is still a true free standing end. If we're to avoid a wrap around at the North Stand end I think 15/16k would be possible as the Holte loses the corner on the Trinity Rd side and they could avoid that. So a potential 50k can be achieved but how would it go down with traditionalists if the North Stand held more than the Holte?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Heald Green Villa on March 09, 2021, 05:51:43 PM
I wonder what the Holte End capacity would be if safe standing was installed in the lower Holte?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 09, 2021, 05:57:06 PM
Loath as I am to praise something in the Lambert era, but the atmosphere in the 6-1 v Sunderland was brilliant.

I remember being absolutely buzzing coming out of that game, and playing the Clash on the car stereo really loud all the way home.

yeah, yeah. You mean you were listening to U2, Sund'land, Bloody Sund'land.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: steamer on March 09, 2021, 06:18:02 PM
What was the Holte standing capacity before the roof went on, I see to think 22,000
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 06:27:29 PM
What was the Holte standing capacity before the roof went on, I see to think 22,000
I think it went to 22,000 after they created a 6ft gap down the middle and that must've took a couple of thousand off. I seem to remember a figure of 28,000 but not sure if that was ever official.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nelly on March 09, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
That Everton game, does anyone know if there's a way to watch the full game anywhere or anyhow? Does the Villa website have anything like this? I would dearly love to see that again.

Villa Park is one of the reasons I am most proud of the club. Such an iconic ground, dripping in history and a true sense of tradition. My preference would certainly be to improve on what we have rather than move away. I can't bear the thought of Villa not playing at Villa Park.

Without meaning to take the thread into the realms of comedy, Tony Xia mooted that idea/fantasy of rebuilding/redeveloping Aston around Villa Park. I'm guessing that isn't on the table any longer?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 09, 2021, 08:12:07 PM
I wonder what the Holte End capacity would be if safe standing was installed in the lower Holte?

The same, I think. Unless you completely rip out a stand and start again,  you can't increase capacity by changing from seating to standing. Increasing capacity means you're legally obliged to increase the number of emerging exits and toilets, among other things. There is also the issue that the structure itself is designed for a certain number of people and letting more in could render the stand unsafe.

I think, anyway. Amfy is the expert and told me something along the lines of the above though I may not have remembered it properly.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: West Derby Villan on March 09, 2021, 09:26:11 PM
What was the Holte standing capacity before the roof went on, I see to think 22,000
I think it went to 22,000 after they created a 6ft gap down the middle and that must've took a couple of thousand off. I seem to remember a figure of 28,000 but not sure if that was ever official.

Yeah I remember that 28000 figure back in the 70s
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: brian green on March 09, 2021, 10:07:31 PM
28,000 through the turnstiles plus however many climbed up the back wall.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on March 09, 2021, 10:30:29 PM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 10:39:54 PM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?
It's long overdue so it should be a top priority in my view. The owners plan to make us a European force again so it would be remiss of them to wait until we start a campaign and then decide to knock half the ground down. And we should remember that poxy Wolves have knocked down and rebuilt their North bank twice since we built our North stand in the 70's.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 09, 2021, 10:55:56 PM
Yes the Holte was 28k, so when things were going well a typical 3/4 full was about 21k. With a few gaps on the sides in the Trinity and Witton seats, that would be about another 5k and 3k. So that left the Trinity enclosure and Witton Terrace to add on. Shall we just say a bit over 30k Mr Ellis ?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 09, 2021, 11:19:15 PM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?
To be in a position to start onsite at the end of next season, a planning application would need to be submitted in six months time at the latest. Its not impossible, but highly unlikely that the design process has started yet. Even if the design work had been progressed behind the scenes, the public consultation involved would be difficult to conclude within these timescales. I think that the club wouldn't want to progress too far with any plans before they are in a position to consult supporters properly anyway, which is obviously difficult in current circumstances. The 2030 target allows enough time to bring the ground as a whole up to the necessary standard, but the North Stand would be the main component of any redevelopment, and won't happen overnight. Unless of course the owners want to bash out HDE's lapsed consent, which I sincerely hope they don't!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 09, 2021, 11:26:57 PM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?
To be in a position to start onsite at the end of next season, a planning application would need to be submitted in six months time at the latest. Its not impossible, but highly unlikely that the design process has started yet. Even if the design work had been progressed behind the scenes, the public consultation involved would be difficult to conclude within these timescales. I think that the club wouldn't want to progress too far with any plans before they are in a position to consult supporters properly anyway, which is obviously difficult in current circumstances. The 2030 target allows enough time to bring the ground as a whole up to the necessary standard, but the North Stand would be the main component of any redevelopment, and won't happen overnight. Unless of course the owners want to bash out HDE's lapsed consent, which I sincerely hope they don't!
Interesting cheers for the info. But 2030? Surely it can be done quicker than that? Mind you it's took our council 10 years to extend the tram by about half a mile so if they've got anything to do with it your probably right.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on March 10, 2021, 12:44:46 AM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?
To be in a position to start onsite at the end of next season, a planning application would need to be submitted in six months time at the latest. Its not impossible, but highly unlikely that the design process has started yet. Even if the design work had been progressed behind the scenes, the public consultation involved would be difficult to conclude within these timescales. I think that the club wouldn't want to progress too far with any plans before they are in a position to consult supporters properly anyway, which is obviously difficult in current circumstances. The 2030 target allows enough time to bring the ground as a whole up to the necessary standard, but the North Stand would be the main component of any redevelopment, and won't happen overnight. Unless of course the owners want to bash out HDE's lapsed consent, which I sincerely hope they don't!
Interesting cheers for the info. But 2030? Surely it can be done quicker than that? Mind you it's took our council 10 years to extend the tram by about half a mile so if they've got anything to do with it your probably right.
I suppose I was thinking that the 2030 target is realistic to complete redevelopment of the North stand and some other projects to upgrade the ground. If work on the North Stand started in summer 2023 and continued for 18-24 months, there would be 5 years left to redevelop the Witton Lane stand for example. More likely, nothing much will happen for the next few years whilst our owners assess the post-Covid landscape, and wait until we are fully established in the EPL with more sustainable transfer net spend, before ramping-up the process.

Liverpool's timescales to redevelop Anfield aren't dissimilar; declaring their intention to expand the ground in 2011, planning application for the new main stand in spring 2014, opening the stand in autumn 2016, planning application for the new Anfield Road stand at the end of 2020, and now expecting construction to be complete by summer 2023 at the earliest. They have changed their minds a bit, and obviously been affected by Covid, which would have slowed them down a bit, but they have also won the CL and EPL during this period, which must have provided some impetus.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 10, 2021, 06:32:25 AM
Haven't we already got planning permission to rebuild the North Stand?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 09:24:56 AM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.

Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Mister E on March 10, 2021, 09:49:30 AM
When do we think a suitable time would be to get cracking on the North Stand? Surely this time next year, if we are established in the top half of the PL again, would be as good a time as any? Or too soon?
March 2020.
Oooops.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 10, 2021, 09:52:05 AM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.

Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
+1 from me.  Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 09:56:20 AM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.

Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
+1 from me.  Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.

When I was a kid, the brutalist buildings were the nice new places that you wanted to go to, the Victorian buildings were cold and scary looking, but basically my whole stance can still be boiled down to Wyndley swimming baths vs Erdington.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 11:40:56 AM
A rebuilt North Stand to mirror the Holte (with additional corporate facilities) would take us up to c. 50k, and presumably wouldn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things.  That's probably all we can do realistically without a rebuild where we shift the stadium 10 yards into the North Stand car park, and to be honest would do us for the next 10 years. If we are consistently successful at that point, then a wholescale redevelopment might be the only way to go.

This for me, two tiers (so as not to overshadow The Holte) and top notch corporate facilities. An exterior facade similar to The Holte (with mosaic and steps etc) and the McGregor statue given pride of place with it renamed The (William) McGregor Stand. Increasing the capacity from 7K to circa 13.5k would bring us close to 50k overall and design the lower tier so that it can be converted to rail seating with minimal fuss/cost.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 10, 2021, 12:07:07 PM
All this discussion has just made me pissed off that one of the stands is named after the ex, ex, ex, chairman and was when he was still here. There's just no club that has that sort of issue. (Barring perhaps Sheffield Utd who signed CHed Evans with a rape conviction and had to remove the name of the Bramall Lane stand after bizarrely naming it the Jessica Ennis Stand, when the aforementioned took umbrage at the signing.)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 10, 2021, 01:25:04 PM
The problem with fan consultations is that there are as many different opinions as there are fans.  I don't pariculalry want my clubs future and development of the ground dictated by the few who stamp their feet the loudest.  Thats how you end up with banners which say 'Here come the Aston Villa'

Everton, Tottenham, City, Arsenal etc have taken the difficult decison to completely redevelop / move grounds to be able to compete (with varying sucess I agree).  Undoubtedly large parts of their support would have been against these moves but Spurs and Arsenal in particular now have world class stadiums.  I'm sure the club get that most football fans lean towards 'traditionalist' views and rightly so.  But if we need to fill in some corners to get up to a capacity to compete with these clubs, then so long as it's done with some sympathy and common sence I hope they have the commercial sense to make that difficult decision.

I want Villa Park to retain it's magic and hope there will always be a famous Holte End.  But mostly I want Villa to be successful and have a place at the top table and if that means some compromise on stadium design, I'll live with it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2021, 01:28:29 PM
The problem with fan consultations is that there are as many different opinions as there are fans.  I don't pariculalry want my clubs future and development of the ground dictated by the few who stamp their feet the loudest.  Thats how you end up with banners which say 'Here come the Aston Villa'

Everton, Tottenham, City, Arsenal etc have taken the difficult decison to completely redevelop / move grounds to be able to compete (with varying sucess I agree).  Undoubtedly large parts of their support would have been against these moves but Spurs and Arsenal in particular now have world class stadiums.  I'm sure the club get that most football fans lean towards 'traditionalist' views and rightly so.  But if we need to fill in some corners to get up to a capacity to compete with these clubs, then so long as it's done with some sympathy and common sence I hope they have the commercial sense to make that difficult decision.

I want Villa Park to retain it's magic and hope there will always be a famous Holte End.  But mostly I want Villa to be successful and have a place at the top table and if that means some compromise on stadium design, I'll live with it.

Not much to disagree with there, except that the Emirates is a hole of a place and has robbed Arsenal of the class that they used to have.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 10, 2021, 01:59:41 PM
The problem with fan consultations is that there are as many different opinions as there are fans.  I don't pariculalry want my clubs future and development of the ground dictated by the few who stamp their feet the loudest.  Thats how you end up with banners which say 'Here come the Aston Villa'

Everton, Tottenham, City, Arsenal etc have taken the difficult decison to completely redevelop / move grounds to be able to compete (with varying sucess I agree).  Undoubtedly large parts of their support would have been against these moves but Spurs and Arsenal in particular now have world class stadiums.  I'm sure the club get that most football fans lean towards 'traditionalist' views and rightly so.  But if we need to fill in some corners to get up to a capacity to compete with these clubs, then so long as it's done with some sympathy and common sence I hope they have the commercial sense to make that difficult decision.

I want Villa Park to retain it's magic and hope there will always be a famous Holte End.  But mostly I want Villa to be successful and have a place at the top table and if that means some compromise on stadium design, I'll live with it.

Not much to disagree with there, except that the Emirates is a hole of a place and has robbed Arsenal of the class that they used to have.

Absolutely right about The Emirates - it has robbed Arsenal of their identity and is a soulless place to watch a football match.  Even the supposedly successful examples like Spurs, though, are still pre-pack stadia with small tweaks, rather than places with their own character.  As I said earlier, the new WHL is basically a ground that is 3/4s the same as The Emirates, The Etihad, Benfica's Stadium of Light and the Aviva Stadium in Dublin, just with a big single-tiered end.  I'm certain it's possible to create a ground that suits our needs and will bring far more income without going down this route.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on March 10, 2021, 02:05:09 PM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.

Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
+1 from me.  Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.

++ for me.

It was the first of its kind in the country and the last stand that links us to the successful teams of the 70s and 80s.   Gut the concourses and go to town reprofiling the back of it. But don't level completely when the Witton is far more deserving of that fate.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 02:16:19 PM
Not much to disagree with there, except that the Emirates is a hole of a place and has robbed Arsenal of the class that they used to have.

Agree with that and feel that if we ever move from Villa Park we'd lose some of our class/soul too. Hard to beat that feeling as you walk down Aston Park and The Holte End (one of the most famous ends in football) looms into view.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 02:19:36 PM
A rebuilt North Stand to mirror the Holte (with additional corporate facilities) would take us up to c. 50k, and presumably wouldn't cost that much in the grand scheme of things.  That's probably all we can do realistically without a rebuild where we shift the stadium 10 yards into the North Stand car park, and to be honest would do us for the next 10 years. If we are consistently successful at that point, then a wholescale redevelopment might be the only way to go.

This for me, two tiers (so as not to overshadow The Holte) and top notch corporate facilities. An exterior facade similar to The Holte (with mosaic and steps etc) and the McGregor statue given pride of place with it renamed The (William) McGregor Stand. Increasing the capacity from 7K to circa 13.5k would bring us close to 50k overall and design the lower tier so that it can be converted to rail seating with minimal fuss/cost.
A North Stand built built on the same scale as the Holte would hold considerably more. The Holte has a whole corner of it lopped off due to the Trinity Rd being adjacent. A North stand rebuild wouldn't have such restrictions.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 02:28:58 PM
I'm sick of all the North Stand hating, it's a brutalist masterpiece and I like sitting up there.

Sort the bloody **** ***** stand out first, that's the real disgrace. It may look a bit better on the outside, but it's terrible inside and it's basically a cut-and-shut job of two stands. It's fitting tribute to the name it was given.
+1 from me.  Might be just because I tend to sit in the North Stand Upper myself, but I like it ... the view's great in the upper tier, and I love a bit of brutalist architecture myself.

++ for me.

It was the first of its kind in the country and the last stand that links us to the successful teams of the 70s and 80s.   Gut the concourses and go to town reprofiling the back of it. But don't level completely when the Witton is far more deserving of that fate.
It would seem that the North stand is fast becoming marmite or at least on here it is. My two Bob's worth is I hate brutalist architecture with a passion and find the current North stand about as bland as it gets to look at. The cost of refurbishing it and adding the necessary 7,000+ seats would be far more expensive than demolition and a total rebuild. It would end up a cut n shut type mishmash that HDE would have been proud of.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 02:50:47 PM
A North Stand built built on the same scale as the Holte would hold considerably more. The Holte has a whole corner of it lopped off due to the Trinity Rd being adjacent. A North stand rebuild wouldn't have such restrictions.

Even better if it would push us over 50k. I've no problem with it having a bigger capacity than the Holte, just don't want it to be a single bank that would dilute the Holte being the 'home' end. Plus I imagine we'd need to incorporate hospitality suites from a revenue point of view.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on March 10, 2021, 03:15:49 PM
I just hope we never leave.

Iíve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.

Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.

A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2021, 03:21:24 PM
I just hope we never leave.

Iíve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.

Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.

A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.

They're right, it's shit.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 10, 2021, 03:59:42 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.

But look at something like the Millenium Stadium.  Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere.  Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless.  It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.

I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 10, 2021, 04:24:19 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.

But look at something like the Millenium Stadium.  Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere.  Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless.  It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.

I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.

The important thing with the Millenium Stadium is that it wasn't built with the primary intention of milking as much money as possible out of corporate seats, and was designed to get the maximum number of seats into the smallest footprint - all of the stands feel as though they are on top of the playing field.  It also retained part of the old Cardiff Arms Park in it's design, so it still has a clear link to it's heritage.  If we could do a similar job with Villa Park I would be very happy.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on March 10, 2021, 04:27:36 PM
You can fall out of the pub and into the ground in a few steps, that helps.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 10, 2021, 04:27:51 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.

But look at something like the Millenium Stadium.  Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere.  Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless.  It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.

I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.
I agree there, love the Millenium Stadium. You get a really intense atmosphere there, I find. Feels like the fans are almost on top of the pitch.

I'm fine with the corners being filled in, I think, as long as the exterior of the ground keeps it's classy, old school look. I'm sure it's possible to keep the appearance of 4 separate stands up whilst having the corners filled in. As others have said, the yellow wall looks quite distinct inside Dortmund's ground. Externally some clever brick cladding (& non-identical architecture - don't try to recreate the Holte End steps) in the right places would keep the stands distinctive. Maybe clad the main part of the stands and build them out a bit, and leave the corners unclad. Or something signifying that they're separate entities - clocktowers or AV floodlights or whatever.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: PeterWithe on March 10, 2021, 04:35:51 PM
I think I'm right in saying that whilst the price paid for the Millenium Stadium was comparatively low, it sent the company who built it under as they made a significant loss on it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 10, 2021, 04:39:13 PM
I just hope we never leave.

Iíve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.

Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.

A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.

They're right, it's shit.

Are there any major new stadiums you do like?! And is that why you're in Mexico, to hunt for the spirit of the Estadio Azteca?! Brentford building a new ground on your doorstep was the final straw  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 10, 2021, 04:47:02 PM
I think I'm right in saying that whilst the price paid for the Millenium Stadium was comparatively low, it sent the company who built it under as they made a significant loss on it.
Yes something like that.  I don't know if they wen't bust but I recall they lost significant money on it.  The cost they built the Millenium for compared to the ridiculous costs for Wembley was just incredible.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 10, 2021, 05:02:13 PM
I just hope we never leave.

Iíve spoken to several West Ham fans since their move, and they hate it. An awful bowl, no identity to them at all. Good for gigs, not for football.

Some of the new identikit grounds are just soulless and devoid of any character.

A ground with red seats... is it Southampton, is it Stoke, is it Middlesbrough? They all look exactly the same.

They're right, it's shit.

Are there any major new stadiums you do like?! And is that why you're in Mexico, to hunt for the spirit of the Estadio Azteca?! Brentford building a new ground on your doorstep was the final straw  ;D ;D

You might be onto something there. The Emirates and the West Ham abomination are the only new ones I've been to (apart from Wembley, which I strangely loved a couple of years back). I really liked Griffin Park though, so I doubt I'd have much time for the one on the M4. Mexico City is full of COVID so I won't see the Azteca on this trip, sadly.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on March 10, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?

(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on March 10, 2021, 06:07:16 PM
We could replicate The North Stand at La Bombonera. With a roof on top. It's three tiers, steep and might work...
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 10, 2021, 06:18:24 PM
We could replicate The North Stand at La Bombonera. With a roof on top. It's three tiers, steep and might work...

The atmosphere at La Bombonera is magnificent


(https://i.ibb.co/c25Fdsx/C5-A952-CA-BC5-B-402-D-A92-E-1-CCAF94-A1986.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c25Fdsx)

(https://i.ibb.co/qnm9RgJ/CCA2-DE3-A-EEA6-4-B43-A11-B-E00-AD970-FEEB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qnm9RgJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/khGzyqQ/3856-BC54-99-E5-4344-9-B23-583-CD9502-FDB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/khGzyqQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/7CqxBrD/6-A41-F59-E-4160-4417-8242-25-E2-DF272548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7CqxBrD)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 07:09:36 PM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?

(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
That looks fantastic I've never seen that before. How high are those end stands? And I'm loving the symmetry something a certain HDE had absolutely no concept of. Two Holte ends and two Trinity Rds opposing each other would tick all the boxes for me with the lower sections joined all around the ground in a continuous sweep.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 10, 2021, 07:16:46 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: john2710 on March 10, 2021, 07:18:46 PM
I haven't got a problem if the North Stand was to be bigger than the Holte. It's a nice problem to have. The Witton will always be hamstrung by the position of the road & housing.

Hopefully in the next 2-3 years the stadium simply isn't going to be big enough.

I wouldn't be happy about moving.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 10, 2021, 07:33:43 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.

Saw that earlier and agree. However, it's already officially called EstŠdio Jornalista MŠrio Filho so they'll probably just change that and it will still be known as the Maracan„.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 07:54:41 PM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?

(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
That looks fantastic I've never seen that before. How high are those end stands? And I'm loving the symmetry something a certain HDE had absolutely no concept of. Two Holte ends and two Trinity Rds opposing each other would tick all the boxes for me with the lower sections joined all around the ground in a continuous sweep.

Never mind Witton Lane, we'd be taking most of Witton itself with that badboy

Count me in..
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 10, 2021, 08:06:28 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 10, 2021, 08:10:44 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got done tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2

They've got massive bastard in Michigan that holds the record for consecutive 100k + attendances and it's only for bleeding college football.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: olaftab on March 10, 2021, 08:56:59 PM
I haven't got a problem if the North Stand was to be bigger than the Holte. It's a nice problem to have. The Witton will always be hamstrung by the position of the road & housing.
There is no housing anymore  in Witton lane behind the stand.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 10, 2021, 09:01:18 PM
I like this one...

https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-bursaspors-crocodile-arena-stadium-is-one-youll-need-to-visit-20180504.amp.html
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: olaftab on March 10, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
I think we do have to move we should build a new stadium copying Westfalenstadion at Saltley gasworks site.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: OCD on March 10, 2021, 09:30:03 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got done tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2

Number 1 has my vote too :)

Many of the NFL stadiums are like national stadiums in their own right.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on March 10, 2021, 09:35:28 PM
I love this one in Indianapolis.

The brick exterior and intensely dense interior would be brilliant for a redeveloped Villa Park.

https://www.lucasoilstadium.com/
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 09:55:59 PM
I haven't got a problem if the North Stand was to be bigger than the Holte. It's a nice problem to have. The Witton will always be hamstrung by the position of the road & housing.
There is no housing anymore  in Witton lane behind the stand.
That's because the club purchased all the houses there to allow the extension to the Witton lane. As were now up against the road we would have to move the road to where the park is and purchase the houses. It would be a massive undertaking that would require the co-operation of A. The council and B. The local residents. My gut feelings are that due to these issues they would knock down the North Stand and build it bigger as we already own that land. It seems the logical option and I think we're a long way off ever rebuilding the Witton lane stand.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 10, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
Liverpool bought up the houses around Anfield.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: DB on March 10, 2021, 10:33:30 PM
It took them a while and had awful consequences for the area.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 10:36:48 PM
Liverpool bought up the houses around Anfield.
And we will have to if they're going to expand the Witton lane stand. It takes years to get them all to agree to moving. That's why I think if and when work does get underway it will all happen at the North stand end of the ground. We can reach 50k quite comfortably just by doing that end then worry about the Witton lane stand once the demand is there. Nothing to stop the club setting about buying up the propertys on that side of the ground.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 10, 2021, 10:48:31 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: AV82EC on March 10, 2021, 10:56:12 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.

I donít think Liverpool did they just bought them up, left them empty, creating a serious case of urban blight and most others then moved out as a result. It was a pretty scummy move in my opinion but it got them what they wanted. Iíd like to think we wouldnít do that and try and take local residents with us on any ground extensions but sometimes itís the old ďomelettes and broken eggsĒ scenario.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 10, 2021, 11:20:21 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.
I totally agree. That's why developing the Witton lane stand will be very difficult. A lot of negotiations with the local community lie ahead. Compromises can always be found that suit everyone.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nelly on March 10, 2021, 11:48:33 PM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2

This was interesting thank you. I notice that their number one ranked stadium is the oldest one on there, from 1957. "Part museum, part mecca, all classic."
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on March 11, 2021, 06:37:44 AM
I went here in the early 90s. It's the Monumental Stadium in Ecuador. Its probably the most impressive stadium I've ever been too. I think it shows that you can have an amazing stadium of four separate stands. Villa Park would in my opinion be magnificent if all of the opposing stands mirrored each other. Obviously there would be problems with Within Lane, but surely it's something that could be overcome?

(https://i.ibb.co/26DtcDV/890a6e417015c1f11834cafb09191bd1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26DtcDV)
That looks fantastic I've never seen that before. How high are those end stands? And I'm loving the symmetry something a certain HDE had absolutely no concept of. Two Holte ends and two Trinity Rds opposing each other would tick all the boxes for me with the lower sections joined all around the ground in a continuous sweep.

Yeah they were big old stands that's for sure. They were both terraced stands, probably on a par with the old Holte  End. Interestingly the team that play there are called F.C. Barcelona.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 11, 2021, 09:06:56 AM
Yeah they were big old stands that's for sure. They were both terraced stands, probably on a par with the old Holte  End. Interestingly the team that play there are called F.C. Barcelona.

Only holds 57k, looks bigger tbf.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: andrew08 on March 11, 2021, 09:15:11 AM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2

Iím a Packers Fan and been to Lambeau Field a few times and Iím surprised itís ranked so high in that list. It definitely has that old school feel to it in the original bowl. But the  Ďbleachersí are metal and uncomfortable and bloody cold on your arse if you donít layer up in winter or September for that matter. The only reason they keep them is because theyíd lose about 10,000 season ticket holders places and they already have that 30 year waiting list for tickets as it is. It would be like having a tier of North Stand lower seats and their tight leg room all round Villa Park just to experience how seating was when Doug did it back in the day.

The atmosphere is fantastic, and of course the foyer areas are better than here, but NFL pitches are narrower than footy pitches so you feel a bit closer. Last year before the lockdown I experienced the last minute winner against Leicester to go to Wembley at Villa Park and a play completion at Lambeau to advance the Packers in the play offs within a month or so of each other.

The best atmosphere? Pretty similar at both to be honest....carnage, limbs etc. No away fans in one location to gloat at is the big difference I suppose. The drinking culture at the Packers games is very similar to Villa though, thatís why I like it!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on March 11, 2021, 10:59:58 AM
In theory, I wonder if it would be possible to just close Witton Lane from Holte Road all the way up to Station Road?  There are no other roads off Witton Lane between those two points, and plenty of other routes for traffic to negotiate around Villa Park - it would add inconvenience, but it's not a particularly busy route most days (plus aren't we supposed to be discouraging car use).  It would give much more room for improved concourse areas, and whilst the stand can't really go any higher we could at least use the existing footprint much more efficiently, to hopefully give us a much better stand and probably an increase in capacity.



Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 11, 2021, 11:05:09 AM
In theory, I wonder if it would be possible to just close Witton Lane from Holte Road all the way up to Station Road?  There are no other roads off Witton Lane between those two points, and plenty of other routes for traffic to negotiate around Villa Park - it would add inconvenience, but it's not a particularly busy route most days (plus aren't we supposed to be discouraging car use).  It would give much more room for improved concourse areas, and whilst the stand can't really go any higher we could at least use the existing footprint much more efficiently, to hopefully give us a much better stand and probably an increase in capacity.





Go to Villa Park during the week and you'd be surprised at how busy Witton Lane and especially Trinity Road are. There is no way the council would allow one of them to be blocked off, particularly as it would then mean a diversion along Witton Road.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Risso on March 11, 2021, 11:13:43 AM
In theory, I wonder if it would be possible to just close Witton Lane from Holte Road all the way up to Station Road?  There are no other roads off Witton Lane between those two points, and plenty of other routes for traffic to negotiate around Villa Park - it would add inconvenience, but it's not a particularly busy route most days (plus aren't we supposed to be discouraging car use).  It would give much more room for improved concourse areas, and whilst the stand can't really go any higher we could at least use the existing footprint much more efficiently, to hopefully give us a much better stand and probably an increase in capacity.





Go to Villa Park during the week and you'd be surprised at how busy Witton Lane and especially Trinity Road are. There is no way the council would allow one of them to be blocked off, particularly as it would then mean a diversion along Witton Road.

True, there's nothing else other than Trinity Road and Witton Lane that really links Witton Road and Lichfield Road in that immediate vicinity other than the roads between the terraces, which aren't fit to be used by that much traffic.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 11, 2021, 11:15:53 AM
They are shutting plenty of other busy roads across the city, so why not.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on March 11, 2021, 03:58:56 PM
I'd rather we didn't kick local people out of their houses.

I donít think Liverpool did they just bought them up, left them empty, creating a serious case of urban blight and most others then moved out as a result. It was a pretty scummy move in my opinion but it got them what they wanted. Iíd like to think we wouldnít do that and try and take local residents with us on any ground extensions but sometimes itís the old ďomelettes and broken eggsĒ scenario.


Yes I think it caused a lot of animosity around Anfiield , not the way to do it
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on March 11, 2021, 05:11:09 PM
Yes I think it caused a lot of animosity around Anfiield , not the way to do it

The Guardian covered it in a few articles over the years e.g.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn

Shameful really.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: steamer on March 11, 2021, 05:21:53 PM
On a humorous memory, I remember being at an early season  night game against man city ?
Doug had sneakily  tried to redevelop the Holte by putting a fence down the middle.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it and pulled the fence down"
The concrete had not set and it was not a big deal to push it over. The police were a bit nonplussed as what to do as it had happened before they had a chance to respond
Not sure what the intentions were in putting it up in the 1st place
The rumour was that Doug thought he could sell it out by letting opposition fans in one side.
But my memory is a bit vague and i could be wrong
But there was a fence and after its demolition it never came back
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 11, 2021, 06:24:21 PM
On a humorous memory, I remember being at an early season  night game against man city ?
Doug had sneakily  tried to redevelop the Holte by putting a fence down the middle.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it and pulled the fence down"
The concrete had not set and it was not a big deal to push it over. The police were a bit nonplussed as what to do as it had happened before they had a chance to respond
Not sure what the intentions were in putting it up in the 1st place
The rumour was that Doug thought he could sell it out by letting opposition fans in one side.
But my memory is a bit vague and i could be wrong
But there was a fence and after its demolition it never came back
They did rebuild the fence. It was there in the last day of the Holte pictures.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 11, 2021, 06:28:13 PM
Am i making this up but couldnt you walk between the two halves of the holte right at the very back, even with the fence, for a good few years.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: andrew08 on March 11, 2021, 06:51:01 PM
It was split for the FA Cup semiís and they put a net up to stop the inevitable missile throwing.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 12, 2021, 09:06:05 AM
The best looking stadia are all in the Americas for some reason. The NFL has got some tremendous looking stadia too - https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-nfl-stadiums-from-worst-to-best/dky07jdst5w1mcy7cgsm7q6s/2

This was interesting thank you. I notice that their number one ranked stadium is the oldest one on there, from 1957. "Part museum, part mecca, all classic."
Some fabulous stadiums there. Some of them knock spots off Wembley. The last one got me thinking. Behind the North stand we could have something similar we have the space. An entertainment area with bars and eaterys. Something like Box Park at Wembley.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on March 12, 2021, 09:51:18 AM
I'm not sure you could have a permanent BoxPark type place - it wouldn't be financially viable other than for 20ish home match days - but you could easily have permanent covered seating/tables with heaters and pitches for 15/20 food and drinks trucks around the edge of the space.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on March 12, 2021, 09:58:07 AM
Two Holte Ends you say? Two minutes into this video...

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 12, 2021, 10:04:30 AM
Two Holte Ends you say? Two minutes into this video...



Ha, the rags one is wrong, they just needed to strip away the two stands and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Duncan Shaw on March 12, 2021, 10:10:40 AM
Yes I think it caused a lot of animosity around Anfiield , not the way to do it

The Guardian covered it in a few articles over the years e.g.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2013/may/06/anfield-liverpool-david-conn

Shameful really.

Wow that's awful.

Must be mis-reported though because surely lovable Liverpool, who everyone loves and was so pleased to see the 30 years of hurt end with them back to their rightful place as the nation's Champions wouldn't shit on their own doorstep like that?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: OCD on March 12, 2021, 11:05:28 AM
The same Liverpool that are looking to restructure the whole of football to meet their own needs.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on March 12, 2021, 11:06:02 AM
Two Holte Ends you say? Two minutes into this video...



Ha, the rags one is wrong, they just needed to strip away the two stands and leave it at that.

Or just flatten the whole thing.

But ours with two Holte Ends looks the part, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 12, 2021, 11:16:56 AM
The same Liverpool that are looking to restructure the whole of football to meet their own needs.
They have shown what they stand for, is there a bigger myth in football concerning the attitude of this Club?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on March 13, 2021, 09:21:48 AM
I personally think we need to enclose more of the space between stands, for acoustics if anything. I'd like to see a new North with corners as it's the best use of space. But I would also like the corners of the Holte filling too.

Not necessarily with seats, as I like the Holte being stand alone, but you can fill in with steel or whatever to trap sound.

This is an oldie, and I don't think our gentile and laconic announcer is going to be donning Armani suits and getting quite so animated, but the noise from an enclosed stadium here is spine tingling.

 San Paolo stadium (https://youtu.be/QXROcBwRf2E)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: BC Villain on March 26, 2021, 08:19:23 PM
West Ham ground is awful, but it was always likely to be as it's an athletic stadium.

But look at something like the Millenium Stadium.  Arguably a basic identikit stadium but universally considered a fantastic ground which generates an incredible atmosphere.  Not many people who have been there would consdider it soulless.  It can be done and it doesn't have to cost Wembley type money to do it.

I'm not advocating a rebuild of VP, but I do think we can be more pragmatic and still have a great stadium.

The Millennium is a fantastic arena for atmosphere as it keeps the sound in and gives you a great feeling of looking down on the action.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: BC Villain on March 26, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.

Absolutely.   I've been inside The Maracana (albeit it was empty) but it's one of the few stadiums where you can feel the history and heritage of the place the moment you step inside.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: olaftab on March 26, 2021, 08:57:09 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.

Saw that earlier and agree. However, it's already officially called EstŠdio Jornalista MŠrio Filho so they'll probably just change that and it will still be known as the Maracan„.
Was there for two world cup matches in 2014. Fans board the trains from central Rio and sing the song something to do with the journey to Mara-cana someone told me. BV wasn't there that day to explain.   Can't see then doing the same with  we are on our way to...oh yes The King Pele stadium.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 26, 2021, 08:57:50 PM
Seeing as we are on the subject of South American grounds, they are renaming The Maracana "The King Pele Stadium". Shite idea, IMO. The Maracana is already iconic. Rename the Santos ground, if you must, but not The Maracana.

Absolutely.   I've been inside The Maracana (albeit it was empty) but it's one of the few stadiums where you can feel the history and heritage of the place the moment you step inside.

I saw Flamengo there in a full house. It was as immense as you'd expect.

They got stuffed 3-0 so I didn't even see what the reaction to a home goal was like and it was still brilliant!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 26, 2021, 09:06:22 PM
Just seen the vid for the new Everton stadium which was finally granted permission today. Looks pretty smart
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: SaddVillan on March 27, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
Re the suggestions to fill in the corners.

Looking at Villa Park, the Trinity and Witton Lane are hemmed in by roads.

Trying to increase the capacity of Witton Lane we'd really need to build on Witton Lane itself, which might be difficult to get past the neighbours and the Council

The Trinity is an abomination externally - re-skin in it in redbrick and restore the mosaics. But a rebuild would probably not be worth it.

The easiest way to put in additional capacity is to rebuild the North Stand, mirroring, but not quite copying the Holte - it could be configured so the bottom tier coukd be easily converted to standing when circumstances permit.

Most away fans speak highly of Villa Park because it has 4 distinct stands which reminds them of the days before he proliferation of identikit Lego bowls.

Let's keep it that way and stand apart from the crowd.

.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on March 27, 2021, 12:12:50 AM
Re the suggestions to fill in the corners.

Looking at Villa Park, the Trinity and Witton Lane are hemmed in by roads.

Trying to increase the capacity of Witton Lane we'd really need to build on Witton Lane itself, which might be difficult to get past the neighbours and the Council

The Trinity is an abomination externally - re-skin in it in redbrick and restore the mosaics. But a rebuild would probably not be worth it.

The easiest way to put in additional capacity is to rebuild the North Stand, mirroring, but not quite copying the Holte - it could be configured so the bottom tier coukd be easily converted to standing when circumstances permit.

Or do what other clubs in the continent have done and build below ground. Between than and -please God- getting a safe standing section at some point in the not too distant - we could comfortably get 50k plus without offending the neighbours. 

Would shrink the pitch a bit but that's no bad thing. Make Villa Park more of an amphitheatre.

Agree about the acoustics re sound escaping from the corners. Zombie FC have shown what can be achieved there with a similar layout and capacity.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 27, 2021, 12:34:35 AM
When people think of how good Villa Park is they basically mean the Holte End. Nobody but us cares about having four distinct stands. Fill in the corners between the Trinity Road/North Stand/Witton Lane and leave the Holte End free standing. We need to increase capacity and we play in a highly urbanised area. You can't do that without filling in those corners.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rory on March 27, 2021, 01:12:13 AM
When people think of how good Villa Park is they basically mean the Holte End. Nobody but us cares about having four distinct stands. Fill in the corners between the Trinity Road/North Stand/Witton Lane and leave the Holte End free standing. We need to increase capacity and we play in a highly urbanised area. You can't do that without filling in those corners.

In my opinion, we have half of a great stadium. (Obviously to me, it's all great anyway.)

From within the ground, the Holte and Trinity are fantastic. I think if we could turn the North and the Witton into one cornered stand, that would be grand.

Restore a bit of history to the Trinity external, and include a club musem. Put a good proportion of the TV and corporate facilities in a conjoined North & Witton, facing the spectacle and beauty of the Holte & Trinity, and we'd have an iconic, modern ground with a 55k capacity (which is perfect in my opinion - big enough, but limited opportunities for tourists).

Obviously the Witton is short of space, but if we built a joint stand with the corner, I think we could get away without it being much bigger. Combine the joint stand with a visitor centre underneath the corner, preferably with a direct link from Witton station, and with a club shop/leisure complex in the current car park, with a bar/food hall.

In my view, it would be a nice mixture of heritage and modern facilities, but with the view for visitors always being the heart of the club - the Holte and Trinity (including club museum).
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on March 27, 2021, 07:40:09 AM
Iíve always used Everton and Spurs as a guide when comparing us in terms of fan base, history and ambition etc. Spurs have obviously stepped up with their stadium, and now Everton will also be moving up to a new 60k capacity.  Iíd like to think that the owners fully recognise that we are at the stage now where we have to show our intent to compete on a bigger stage, and provide the room for that growth.

By replacing the North Stand, we can achieve 50-55k capacity, which is absolutely fine, however there is also much to do in the other three stands, and dare I say it immediate vicinity of the ground, to make the whole visitor experience a lot better than it already is. I think the next year or two are critical to this.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on March 27, 2021, 12:23:13 PM
There has been talk of a new North Stand for the guts of 20 years and it hasn't happened. It's a bit of a symbol of us in the new millennium. It's time to push forward and do it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 27, 2021, 12:45:27 PM
Nobody will make any commitment before there is a guarantee that full crowds will be back on a permanent basis.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 27, 2021, 01:01:52 PM
Everton are going full steam ahead with a big new stadium. Man City are installing rail seats in anticipation of safe standing coming in.

Let's get it started while there's no fans to get in the way of making it more difficult.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 27, 2021, 01:07:56 PM
Everton made a commitment prior to Covid and Man City's change won't affect capacity. We could have years of extra lockdowns in a worst case scenario where variants escape vaccines. They won't spend tens of millions for extra empty seats.

Even if things are back to normal we don't know how the pandemic will affect behaviour. People might be more inclined to go to games after over a year locked up, or they may be more nervous about spending time in crowds. What is almost certain is that numbers of fans from abroad, whether tourists or returning Brummies, will be down for many years.

I think the Board will wait until we've had at least a season of full or near full houses before announcing any great expansion plans.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 27, 2021, 01:40:53 PM
Football clubs around the world are getting on with improving their stadiums and we shouldn't be any different. I'd like the owners to make a statement by announcing big plans for redevelopment. I would go for a continuation of the Trinity all the way round to the Witton Lane stand but not joining on to it as we currently don't have the space. That would take us past the 50k mark. The land at the back of North stand could be developed into a Box Park at Wembley type of thing which could be used as a venue for concerts etc. That's my vision.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 27, 2021, 02:07:49 PM
I doubt that would get planning permission. The council hate music.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: BC Villain on March 27, 2021, 02:21:47 PM
When I walk across Aston park the sight of seeing our ground is fantastic - I personally hope that we never move from Villa Park

If NSWE do look at upgrading Villa Park, could that mean we end up playing at the Alexander Stadium while they do the work?   Probably wouldn't be big enough in fairness
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 27, 2021, 04:29:25 PM
I think the capacity would be less than Villa Park with one of the North Stand or Witton Lane Stand out of commission, so wouldn't be any gain in playing thete now that they've scaled back plans for it to host 40,000 people.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: exigo on March 27, 2021, 04:36:03 PM
When people think of how good Villa Park is they basically mean the Holte End. Nobody but us cares about having four distinct stands. Fill in the corners between the Trinity Road/North Stand/Witton Lane and leave the Holte End free standing. We need to increase capacity and we play in a highly urbanised area. You can't do that without filling in those corners.

The corners used to be filled in. Here's Villa Park in 1904 and 1907. I'm all for maximising the space we've got, to make sure we stay where we are. Nothing like coming down the Aston Hall hill, or past Aston church to see the ground rising up.
(https://i.ibb.co/KjQD7Ys/Screenshot-2021-03-27-at-16-24-39.png) (https://ibb.co/KjQD7Ys)

(https://i.ibb.co/YkmWDBM/Screenshot-2021-03-27-at-16-24-11.png) (https://ibb.co/YkmWDBM)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: OCD on March 27, 2021, 04:43:41 PM
As far as I know, the whole issue of allowing fans to stand again is still up in the air. We may well be waiting for this to be resolved before we start firming up any plans we have.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: BC Villain on March 28, 2021, 10:26:42 AM
The North Stand needs to go and should be first to go. Put capacity aside for a minute, the facilities in there are horrific. It doesn't feel safe in the concourse. It is dark, it is cramped. It is just awful. I know it was a great stand in its day but like a lot of builds of that era it has not stood the test of time. If we are honest the late 1970s built North Stand already looked dated by the early 2000s whereas the stands built in the 1990s still look impressive.

I know the Witton Lane stand is quite mundane but it is not as urgent as the North Stand. Also, I think the Witton Lane stand looks quite OK from outside.

Apart from the graffiti on the sides.

Didn't I read somewhere that Gary Newbon of all people claimed he'd suggested that the club name that stand after Ellis?  Certainly wouldn't shock me given what a toady he was
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: olaftab on March 28, 2021, 11:06:19 AM
Football clubs around the world are getting on with improving their stadiums and we shouldn't be any different. I'd like the owners to make a statement by announcing big plans for redevelopment. I would go for a continuation of the Trinity all the way round to the Witton Lane stand but not joining on to it as we currently don't have the space. That would take us past the 50k mark. The land at the back of North stand could be developed into a Box Park at Wembley type of thing which could be used as a venue for concerts etc. That's my vision.
You mean an Aston Villa Leisure Centre type of venue?  ;)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Marlon From Bearwood on March 28, 2021, 12:09:08 PM
As far as I know, the whole issue of allowing fans to stand again is still up in the air. We may well be waiting for this to be resolved before we start firming up any plans we have.

There would be no need to delay things due to this as we could just install rail seats that flip up to allow a seating area to become a terrace. The German clubs have done this for years and now Spurs, Wolves and Man City have already made similar plans.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on March 28, 2021, 05:46:19 PM
Football clubs around the world are getting on with improving their stadiums and we shouldn't be any different. I'd like the owners to make a statement by announcing big plans for redevelopment. I would go for a continuation of the Trinity all the way round to the Witton Lane stand but not joining on to it as we currently don't have the space. That would take us past the 50k mark. The land at the back of North stand could be developed into a Box Park at Wembley type of thing which could be used as a venue for concerts etc. That's my vision.
You mean an Aston Villa Leisure Centre type of venue?  ;)
Kind of but have you been to the Box Park at Wembley? Brilliant pre match venue and we have the space to do it. Clubs need to stop thinking about car parks. Those days are ending.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 29, 2021, 07:21:10 AM
I would like a big fuck off single tier, detached stand with the rail seats at the Witton End plus the two clock towers with AV flood lights atop.

Sounds gaudy written in words, but would look better in drawings if youíd taken mushrooms.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 29, 2021, 07:25:12 AM
Iíve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 29, 2021, 08:55:04 AM
I would like a big fuck off single tier, detached stand with the rail seats at the Witton End plus the two clock towers with AV flood lights atop.

Sounds gaudy written in words, but would look better in drawings if youíd taken mushrooms.
I'm starting to come round to filled in corners at the North Stand end, provided the North Stand is a single tier stand.  Doesn't matter whether the corners are single tier or something else, since whatever they are the Witton End will be a distinct stand.  That said, I've a slight preference for having it all single tier, including the filled in corners, to restore our rightful place as owners of the largest behind-the-goal stand in Europe.  Install rail seats, even if safe standing isn't officially allowed.  Let's see how long that restriction lasts then.

AV floodlights up either end, with the addition of a big, fuck off clock tower in the Holte End / Witton Lane corner.  Presumably it'll need to incorporate some kind of pedestrian arch to not block off that emergency exit, which is fine.  Rail seat the lower tier of the Holte End whilst we're at it.

Once all that's done, build downwards / underground, knock down the current Witton Lane stand, rebuild it so that it looks good.  Thinking have the upper tier overlap the lower tier, like they do at the Millennium stadium.  Want a proper cauldron of a ground, with the fans practically on top of the pitch.  Rail seat the lower tier, returning our entire lower tiers to terracing with the exception of the Trinity Road stand.

Make Aston Villa Great Again (MAVGA)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on March 29, 2021, 09:11:08 AM
Whilst I think redeveloping the North Stand is the priority,  how good would it be to knock down the Doug Ellis Stand and replace it with a giant single tier stand that and re-name it the Ron Saunders Stand.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 29, 2021, 09:24:27 AM
Iíve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.

Stick it on the CV
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 29, 2021, 10:25:57 AM
Iíve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.

Stick it on the CV
I wrote to Randy about the old badge. The Gold Stripy one.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on March 29, 2021, 11:27:18 AM
Iíve got a half decent track record here. I started a thread on H&V calling for the Holte pub to be refurbed and it eventually happened.

Stick it on the CV
stick it up yer bollocks, eamonn 😄
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on March 29, 2021, 01:57:17 PM
Iím definitely in the one single tier camp, with executive boxes in columns in each corner to keep the sound in. Bigger the better.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on March 29, 2021, 02:34:56 PM
The thing to consider with filling in the corners is that it does change airflow over the pitch and can cause some problems.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 29, 2021, 02:36:37 PM
Can everyone just leave the North Stand alone please? Ta.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on March 29, 2021, 02:55:29 PM
The North Stand looks like Adrian Chiles.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 29, 2021, 06:03:03 PM
The North Stand looks like Adrian Chiles.

That's why I want it to stay, in your absence.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: exigo on March 29, 2021, 10:58:21 PM
Without wanting to force anyone out of their home, if we could agree to build 15 houses at the Holte Road end of Witton Gardens in exchange for buying the 15 places on Nelson Road, we could move the whole ground north a bit.
That would give us the space for a properly big North stand, a Witton stand that's easier to take over the road, an equally big Trinity, and a wider Holte End.
Easy enough for billionaires, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: in exile on March 30, 2021, 11:19:21 AM
As long as disabled parking is catered for, I like the Box Park kind of idea.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 30, 2021, 11:30:51 AM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment.  Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 11:39:49 AM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment.  Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here. 

Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on March 30, 2021, 11:50:25 AM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment.  Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here. 

Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
You mean in the North Stand car park?  Always seemed very busy, but not sure how many fans are up for paying £8-9 quid for pre match food in the long run.  Of course the club loose money on their own catering too.  Still, I thought it created a good atmoshere and in a more structured environmemt with access to bars and toilets etc it could be very good.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 30, 2021, 12:44:29 PM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment.  Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here. 

Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?

Without using it myself because we'd been stuffing ourselves in the Barton's beforehand, I walk to the North Stand  past them and they always seemed to be busy, though the one time I did want something they didn't have the facility to take cards which was a bit crap.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on March 30, 2021, 01:12:02 PM
That will likely change post-Covid with cards increasingly being accepted without charge almost everywhere.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: N'ZMAV on March 30, 2021, 01:18:42 PM
A home game once every other week isn't going to sustain a Box Park type deveolpment.  Yes nicer space for mobile street food vendors and some covered areas would be good, but there just wouldn't be the custom for a permanent leisure venue here. 

Pre-lockdown, what was the demand for that Digbeth Dining Club thing once the novelty had worn off?
You mean in the North Stand car park?  Always seemed very busy, but not sure how many fans are up for paying £8-9 quid for pre match food in the long run.  Of course the club loose money on their own catering too.  Still, I thought it created a good atmoshere and in a more structured environmemt with access to bars and toilets etc it could be very good.
it'll probably be £8-9 a pint once all this shit is out the way
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 02:35:56 PM
It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there  and arriving at the match later.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on March 30, 2021, 03:34:53 PM
It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there  and arriving at the match later.

That was always my plan when I went regularly, if I was at the ground much earlier than 10minutes before kick off it was very rare. I think the club could do with organising a lot more events on match day (there were the family fun days a while back that seemed pretty popular and having a space or 2 that are easy to setup for things like that would be useful, could do things like kit launches and live player interviews to get more out of it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 30, 2021, 04:03:12 PM
Having lived in North America for a long time the one thing that is glaringly different is the choice of food inside and outside of the ground vs what we see out here. Football grounds have always been about getting as many people in, serving them a basic menu as quickly as possible in a compressed amount of time. A part of the solution is changing the overall experience of coming to be sports event versus focusing on one thing. From what I have read it apppears Spurs have gone down that road, but then their new stadium allows them to do that versus older stadiums across the country.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on March 30, 2021, 04:15:09 PM
When we went to Hamburg, their fan park was off site and the fans were shuttled on free buses, maybe something similar is the answer.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on March 30, 2021, 04:16:46 PM
Having lived in North America for a long time the one thing that is glaringly different is the choice of food inside and outside of the ground vs what we see out here. Football grounds have always been about getting as many people in, serving them a basic menu as quickly as possible in a compressed amount of time. A part of the solution is changing the overall experience of coming to be sports event versus focusing on one thing. From what I have read it apppears Spurs have gone down that road, but then their new stadium allows them to do that versus older stadiums across the country.

Whilst I agree with you, some of the issues are out of the clubs control though.

Firstly, US sports take ages!!!  If you've got a whole day at the game then you can take your time a bit more.  It's more akin to cricket in the UK where adding an hour before the start isn't a massive impact when you plan to be there all day anyway.  Whereas a game of football is done and dusted in an afternoon - turn up 1/2 hours early and you've doubled the amount of time you're out of the house.

Then there's the historic issue of alcohol.  Again, at a cricket match in the UK or any US sport you can go and get some food, bring it back to your seat and take your time over it.  Football is all about squeezing as much food and drink in to the bits around the game as quickly as possible, which lends itself to basic stuff akin to fast food.  If you could drink beer in the stands at a football match it would make more varied food options more viable.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 04:24:49 PM
As someone once said about beer at football - in the clubs' ideal world it would be compulsory to buy and illegal to drink.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ChicagoLion on March 30, 2021, 04:28:39 PM
Food is far more important for Americans, what ever they do wherever they go there is food available and usually lots of it. Only in the US will you see someone go to the bar and order shit loads of food and then say as an afterthought, ďdoes anybody want any drinksĒ
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on March 30, 2021, 04:35:43 PM
Food is far more important for Americans, what ever they do wherever they go there is food available and usually lots of it. Only in the US will you see someone go to the bar and order shit loads of food and then say as an afterthought, ďdoes anybody want any drinksĒ

That's a point I'd never thought about before but it's true. Americans have the same attitude to food as we do to beer. Whatever the occasion, it's there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: N'ZMAV on March 30, 2021, 04:58:08 PM
maybe it's just me - but I want both food and beer :D
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Woofles The Wonder Dog on March 30, 2021, 05:31:04 PM
Food is far more important for Americans, what ever they do wherever they go there is food available and usually lots of it. Only in the US will you see someone go to the bar and order shit loads of food and then say as an afterthought, ďdoes anybody want any drinksĒ

That's a point I'd never thought about before but it's true. Americans have the same attitude to food as we do to beer. Whatever the occasion, it's there.

When you ask for directions from a passer-by (clearly before GPS) in the UK, it was common for those to be signposted by pubs (go a mile down here to The Rose And Crown, carry on to you see The Bald-Faced Stag and it's just on the left). We found in America that'd be fast food outlets.

My gast was flabbered by the few moments of a sports lover in the USA weren't eating. Mind you the longeurs at baseball and American Football (honorary exceptions for Ice Hockey) left me wishing I'd bought a book with me.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 30, 2021, 06:22:26 PM
Not sport, but there was food on the boat from Fisherman's Wharf, an area replete with eateries, to Alcatraz. A journey of some twelve minutes.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on March 30, 2021, 06:27:06 PM
Not sport, but there was food on the boat from Fisherman's Wharf, an area replete with eateries, to Alcatraz. A journey of some twelve minutes.
For balance, you can get a beer on the Mersey ferry, which doesn't take that long in rush hour :)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on March 30, 2021, 07:42:15 PM
It would be great if we somehow managed to find something that worked. I guess the trick will be to encourage people like me - I drink in town when Blues arenít about (wink), and rock up at VP just before kick off. The options that currently exist near the ground are garbage, and that includes the Holte Suite, which is an exercise in mis-management in itself.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on April 14, 2021, 05:55:47 PM
This looks interesting. Our man Simon Inglis speaking.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/wsc-live-around-the-grounds-tickets-147793039961
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on April 15, 2021, 09:46:35 AM
Anyone seen the plans for the redevelopment recently? Presumably just the ones from last time- continuation of the trinity round to the Witton with filled in corners?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on April 15, 2021, 02:09:25 PM
Please, no filled in corners.

That's not what English grounds are meant to look like. That's for foreign grounds and identikit recent English grounds (Boro, Leicester, Swansea, Cardiff, Hull, 100 other clubs)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on April 15, 2021, 03:02:57 PM

...... recent English grounds....... , Swansea, Cardiff....

Ahem
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: nigel on April 15, 2021, 04:28:10 PM

...... recent English grounds....... , Swansea, Cardiff....

Ahem

😂
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on April 15, 2021, 05:00:28 PM
Please, no filled in corners.

That's not what English grounds are meant to look like. That's for foreign grounds and identikit recent English grounds (Boro, Leicester, Swansea, Cardiff, Hull, 100 other clubs)
See, I was of that mind and then I started thinking ...

First, filled in corner grounds aren't universally bad.  The Millennium Stadium in Cardiff is the obvious one - one of my favourite non-Villa grounds, has filled in corners, but in my book is pretty distinctive and has an absolutely cracking atmosphere inside.

Then, just because the corners are filled in doesn't mean the stands have to merge in to one.  If the Witton End was a huge, single tier kop-type stand, and the Witton Lane & Trinity Road remained as 2 and 3 tier stands respectively, you'd still have 4 distinct stands ... the single tier Witton End, 2 tier Witton Lane Stand, the 3 tier Trinity Road stand being obviously the 'main' stand, and a freestanding Holte End.

I'm not sure exactly how, but 'AV' floodlights down the Witton End, and a big brick clocktower in the Holte End/Witton Lane corner ... there's no way that's an identikit stadium of any description.  Plus, make the corners single tier and the Witton End / North Stand becomes the biggest behind-the-goal-stand in Europe and starts to form a really strong identity of it's own*.


* Personally I love the brutalist masterpiece that's currently in place, and regularly sit there when I go to matches ... but if the ground's being redeveloped it's the obvious place to start.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Russ aka Big Nose on April 15, 2021, 05:08:30 PM
Agree with Algy.

I don't get the binary classification that:
 - Filled in corners = bad and soulless
 - Not filled in corners = good and authentic

I know there are a number of very similar 'bowl' type designs are are tough to tell apart, but it doesn't have to be the outcome.

If the brief given to prospective architects is clear and they are encouraged to reflect the character and traditions of a club and stadium, then why would you impose a condition related to the corners of the ground?

UTV
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on April 15, 2021, 05:20:26 PM
I don't mind half filled corners with higher tiers still separate and I could even live with all 4 corners filled in. What I'd draw the line at personally is an L or U shaped ground with 1-2 separate stands, I really fucking hate that.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Smirker on April 15, 2021, 08:34:02 PM
Horse shoe shape is the ideal scenario.

Trinity, North and Doug Ellis all in one (yes with filled in corners) with a level roof and then Holte on it's own. Some little refurbishments around the ground to make it sexier and give it more pizzazz.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on April 15, 2021, 08:43:52 PM
Yeah, makes sense. Now that we've killed the identity of the Trinity, only the Holte matters. Leave that as a massive stand and fill in the corners for the rest. And minium 51,000 capacity, ideally at least 56,000, or it isn't worth bothering.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on April 15, 2021, 08:51:50 PM
i think we could reclaim something back with the north stand with a nod to our history if we do it right
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lucky Eddie on April 15, 2021, 08:59:41 PM
L shaped grounds are just terrible
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: exigo on April 15, 2021, 10:11:18 PM
Anyone seen the plans for the redevelopment recently? Presumably just the ones from last time- continuation of the trinity round to the Witton with filled in corners?

We're tweaking the Holte into a V shape, and wrapping the rest round for the A.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on April 15, 2021, 10:19:40 PM
Redevelop the Holte to make it a 22,000 single tier stand. Add 8000 on the North with a new stand that has joined lower tiers and enclosed upper tier space to trap the sound.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on April 15, 2021, 10:21:34 PM
Redevelop the Holte to make it a 22,000 single tier stand. Add 8000 on the North with a new stand that has joined lower tiers and enclosed upper tier space to trap the sound.

Yep, that'd do the job for me.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on April 15, 2021, 10:39:02 PM
Nah, the Witton Lane Stand isn't fit for purpose. And bollocks to having the Holte End closed for a season.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 15, 2021, 10:54:30 PM
It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there  and arriving at the match later.

That was always my plan when I went regularly, if I was at the ground much earlier than 10minutes before kick off it was very rare. I think the club could do with organising a lot more events on match day (there were the family fun days a while back that seemed pretty popular and having a space or 2 that are easy to setup for things like that would be useful, could do things like kit launches and live player interviews to get more out of it.

Haven't looked at this thread for a while (Everton new ground is only going to be 52k btw which surprised me as most new builds are around 60k but guess they'll go big on coporate facilities as hardly any at Goodison).

Anyway it will be interesting to see what we do next season with regards pre match entertainment. Doubt full capacity will be a thing for first few months and can imagine they'll be a demand from authorities for us to try to get more people in their seats earlier than usual so we don't get bottlenecks around the entrances and concourse, same for half time.

One easy thing to do would be to bring some old players back for maybe an interview at 2.40pm or something or just do it at half time, can remember Angel and Laursen coming back for a game in the championship and most people stayed in the stands to applaud.

Luc Nilis did an interview a while ago saying he'd love to return to VP when we're back at full capacity:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jack-grealish-luc-nilis-villa-19218216

Seems we don't do this sort of thing anywhere near enough as other clubs do with ex players and seems relatively easy to do, can remember VP being full at ten to three when Ron Saunders came back after his long exile.

One other thing might be perhaps to get a local band playing at side of the pitch or something. Just having that kicking the ball into the flag competition dosen't quite tempt me away from my half time burger.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on April 15, 2021, 11:07:06 PM
If we could reprofile the lower Holte in such a way that it was level with the upper Holte we would't need to close her for the whole season.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on April 16, 2021, 01:04:35 AM
So will fans have any say at all in the possible redesign of the ground? I would like think our opinions would play some role or have some weight in what our ground looks like in the future.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on April 16, 2021, 08:30:49 AM
I agree with TV, although Iíd hope to God that the club donít end up consulting with fans that would like to replace the North Stand with something like....the North Stand
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on April 16, 2021, 09:42:16 AM
Horse shoe shape is the ideal scenario.

Trinity, North and Doug Ellis all in one (yes with filled in corners) with a level roof and then Holte on it's own. Some little refurbishments around the ground to make it sexier and give it more pizzazz.


This is the obvious answer to me.  Maximum capacity for the space and the Holte remains special and stand alone.   Possibly to be rebuilt bigger and steeper at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on April 16, 2021, 09:46:06 AM
It's a balancing act. Some years ago under Lerner the healthy food options were announced and someone on here charmingly replied that there were too many wankers going to football now and lads wanted pies and burgers. Equally, the loud minority believe that everybody wants the sort of expensive stuff that they do. I've long thought that the biggest problem in getting supporters spending time and money at the ground is that there's nothing else around Villa Park for miles so we've got used to the idea of meeting away from there  and arriving at the match later.

That was always my plan when I went regularly, if I was at the ground much earlier than 10minutes before kick off it was very rare. I think the club could do with organising a lot more events on match day (there were the family fun days a while back that seemed pretty popular and having a space or 2 that are easy to setup for things like that would be useful, could do things like kit launches and live player interviews to get more out of it.

Haven't looked at this thread for a while (Everton new ground is only going to be 52k btw which surprised me as most new builds are around 60k but guess they'll go big on coporate facilities as hardly any at Goodison).

Anyway it will be interesting to see what we do next season with regards pre match entertainment. Doubt full capacity will be a thing for first few months and can imagine they'll be a demand from authorities for us to try to get more people in their seats earlier than usual so we don't get bottlenecks around the entrances and concourse, same for half time.

One easy thing to do would be to bring some old players back for maybe an interview at 2.40pm or something or just do it at half time, can remember Angel and Laursen coming back for a game in the championship and most people stayed in the stands to applaud.

Luc Nilis did an interview a while ago saying he'd love to return to VP when we're back at full capacity:

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jack-grealish-luc-nilis-villa-19218216

Seems we don't do this sort of thing anywhere near enough as other clubs do with ex players and seems relatively easy to do, can remember VP being full at ten to three when Ron Saunders came back after his long exile.

One other thing might be perhaps to get a local band playing at side of the pitch or something. Just having that kicking the ball into the flag competition dosen't quite tempt me away from my half time burger.
I'd love to see the U19's have a game before the main game.  I guess there would be concerns re pitch condition, but if they can get over that it would be worth worth arriving early for.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 16, 2021, 10:19:52 AM
I'd love to see the U19's have a game before the main game.  I guess there would be concerns re pitch condition, but if they can get over that it would be worth worth arriving early for.

Why not after the main game? Less concern wrt the pitch and people are more likely to stay on and watch if they're already there than turn up 2 hours earlier than usual. Obviously depends on the kick-off time of the main match so maybe once a month rather than every home game.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on April 16, 2021, 11:48:50 AM
I'd love to see the U19's have a game before the main game.  I guess there would be concerns re pitch condition, but if they can get over that it would be worth worth arriving early for.

Why not after the main game? Less concern wrt the pitch and people are more likely to stay on and watch if they're already there than turn up 2 hours earlier than usual. Obviously depends on the kick-off time of the main match so maybe once a month rather than every home game.


The brightest crop of talent we've had for decades playing on a pitch that's already cut up and I'm sure the ground staff would love the challenge of fixing a surface that's had two games on it as well.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: SoccerHQ on April 16, 2021, 12:06:50 PM
Maybe have the game kicking off at half 12 at Bodymoor and have it shown in the VP concourses, might encourage a few more in early to watch or even put it on one of the screens in the car parks.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: rjp on April 16, 2021, 12:17:32 PM
When I was a smoker I'd always leave going in until the last possible minute no matter what was going on pre-match.  I used to find it hard to get through the whole match without a cigarette until they started letting us out at half time and if you've ever been on the Holte steps at half time you'll know there's quite a few who felt the same.  Thankfully I've given up for over 2 years now.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: luke95 on April 16, 2021, 12:43:41 PM
Maybe have the game kicking off at half 12 at Bodymoor and have it shown in the VP concourses, might encourage a few more in early to watch or even put it on one of the screens in the car parks.
Was just going to suggest that myself & it would have to be before as people just wouldn't hang about after especially if we have lost .
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on April 16, 2021, 01:40:44 PM
Do they show the 12:30 game on the screens in the ground - who am I kidding - the games before ours kicks off at 2pm, 4:30pm 7:15pm, 8pm, 7:45pm (have I missed any?)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Cleybrooke on April 16, 2021, 02:45:36 PM
Here is a thought. We need two stadiums. (stadia?)

65k + for the first team. Around 15K for the Ladies and Academy teams. 

Barcelona and Man City both have second stadia next door to the their main grounds. Why can't we? (Ignoring the small issue of having to relocate houses and business - if only we had an owner that knew something about smart cities in the past)

Build the Academy Stadium first, 1st team plays there for a year, whilst we completely redevelop Villa Park into a brand new, modern interpretation of Archibald Leitchs finest with the added functionality the Tottenham Stadium has.

Future King of England could open it again and once again we would claim..

"with pride and satisfaction, because its lay-out, its wealth of accommodation, and the organised detail of its complete equipment, go to make Villa Park the most perfect football ground in the country."
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on April 16, 2021, 04:48:20 PM
We've just spent millions on the Bodymoor upgrade which now contains a pitch with a seated stand. Closer to 500 capacity than 15,000 mind.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: AV82EC on April 16, 2021, 04:50:03 PM
City's academy and ladies team stadium only holds about 5 to 6,000.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Mister E on April 16, 2021, 07:02:13 PM
City's academy and ladies team stadium only holds about 5 to 6,000.
City???????
You mean Citeh, presumably, based on being in Wilmslow.
There's lots of 'City' out there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on April 16, 2021, 11:04:59 PM
That seems a pretty good idea SHQ.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on April 18, 2021, 10:17:21 AM
We should think big. Logically the first stand to redevelop should be the North Stand, so how about building a gigantic single tier stand. Make it the largest behind the goal stand in Europe.  Make it awesome.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2021, 10:19:36 AM
No. The North cannot eclipse the Holte.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on April 18, 2021, 10:51:16 AM
Course it can. Got to think big my friend. New generations of Villains would come to love it like we love the Holte.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: olaftab on April 18, 2021, 10:54:06 AM
Rico next you'll be suggesting letting away fans  into the Holte End? We should think big but whilst we are in B6 the Holte End has to be supreme.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on April 18, 2021, 11:04:21 AM
Away fans can stay where they are for now, but the old Holte was magnificent in its vastness,  but if the original plans for a 120,000 capacity Villa Park had actually been fulfilled then the Witton End/North Stand would have most likely been as big as the Holte End anyway. Don't get me wrong I love the  Holte, but I think we as Aston Villa should always think big.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2021, 01:02:20 PM
It's just no. Not now, not ever. Villa Park is defined by the Holte and its utter awesomeness.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on April 18, 2021, 01:08:44 PM
It's just no. Not now, not ever. Villa Park is defined by the Holte and its utter awesomeness.

Agree 100% with you and Aftab. The Holte End and the Kop are the most famous ends in English football so it must remain the THE home stand at Villa Park.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on April 18, 2021, 01:31:21 PM
I think realistically it's only going to be possible to do the North and the Holte, given the space constraints of the Witton Lane.

I'd personally do a phase 1 of knocking the North down and add extra capacity with a lower tier that wraps around with the Trinity lower/middle tiers and has enclosed upper area in for tier 2 that traps noise.

I'd be adding facilities for the Witton in here so the concourse space, both upper and lower Witton, can be greatly increased. That would solve the main issues with that stand. A sort of block behind where the wrap around would be at "R" block entrance now.

Phase 2 would be to make the Holte a 22k single tier beast, with again wrap around of lower tiers and enclosed upper areas to trap noise.

You retain 4 stands, you add 17,000 to take us to 60,000, dramatically improve facilities in the Witton Lane and create one of the noisiest grounds in the country.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on April 18, 2021, 03:32:58 PM
Ads, youíve got the contract. You start tomorrow.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: AV82EC on April 18, 2021, 03:37:09 PM
Ads, your idea for the Holte is spot on, it loses something being split upper/lower and the move to a single raked stand is essential, rail seating as an added bonus.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on April 18, 2021, 05:25:08 PM
He had me at ď22K single tear beastĒ.

My word, can you just imagine being part of that?!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on April 18, 2021, 06:22:07 PM
How feasible would it be to reconfigure the Holte into a single tier without having to bulldoze the whole lot?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on April 18, 2021, 06:31:14 PM
No. The North cannot eclipse the Holte.

It would only be temporary until we rebuilt the Holte to be even bigger!!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on April 18, 2021, 08:53:35 PM
No closing the Holte End. Sort the North Stand and the Witton Lane out, they're both shite.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 10, 2021, 05:52:33 PM
https://twitter.com/avfc_news/status/1391792849889419270?s=21

Looks interesting
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on May 10, 2021, 06:09:51 PM
Sort that shitey Witton "can't buy a drink" Lane out, too.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on May 10, 2021, 06:11:09 PM
Sort that shitey Witton "can't buy a drink" Lane out, too.

Sort that fucker out first, thank you.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 11, 2021, 10:55:56 AM
I think realistically it's only going to be possible to do the North and the Holte, given the space constraints of the Witton Lane.

I'd personally do a phase 1 of knocking the North down and add extra capacity with a lower tier that wraps around with the Trinity lower/middle tiers and has enclosed upper area in for tier 2 that traps noise.

I'd be adding facilities for the Witton in here so the concourse space, both upper and lower Witton, can be greatly increased. That would solve the main issues with that stand. A sort of block behind where the wrap around would be at "R" block entrance now.

Phase 2 would be to make the Holte a 22k single tier beast, with again wrap around of lower tiers and enclosed upper areas to trap noise.

You retain 4 stands, you add 17,000 to take us to 60,000, dramatically improve facilities in the Witton Lane and create one of the noisiest grounds in the country.
This is the dream.  Not sure they'd be able to wrap the lower part of the Holte with the Trinity unless they move the road though.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 01:50:29 AM
I think realistically it's only going to be possible to do the North and the Holte, given the space constraints of the Witton Lane.

I'd personally do a phase 1 of knocking the North down and add extra capacity with a lower tier that wraps around with the Trinity lower/middle tiers and has enclosed upper area in for tier 2 that traps noise.

I'd be adding facilities for the Witton in here so the concourse space, both upper and lower Witton, can be greatly increased. That would solve the main issues with that stand. A sort of block behind where the wrap around would be at "R" block entrance now.

Phase 2 would be to make the Holte a 22k single tier beast, with again wrap around of lower tiers and enclosed upper areas to trap noise.

You retain 4 stands, you add 17,000 to take us to 60,000, dramatically improve facilities in the Witton Lane and create one of the noisiest grounds in the country.
I love the idea of a single tier 22k Holte but it wouldn't be feasible. It's hemmed in now by the Trinity Rd itself which causes it to narrow from the right as you look from the pitch. It would have to follow that line to a ridiculous height and would be very narrow at the top. Unless of course the council would allow us to purchase a chunk of Aston Park and move the road over but again I really don't see that happening. We're hemmed in at that corner which gives us all sorts of issues.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on May 12, 2021, 04:30:10 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 12, 2021, 05:11:42 PM
Would using 20m or so of the park be that much of a disaster?  I know there's a number of trees etc, but in the context of the size of the park, the history of Aston Villa etc and the role the club plays in the community and could play in upgrading the area, would that be too much to ask?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 12, 2021, 05:12:53 PM
With that said, I'd imagine redeveloping the Holte would be way down on any list of the clubs priorities.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 12, 2021, 05:37:21 PM
Would using 20m or so of the park be that much of a disaster?  I know there's a number of trees etc, but in the context of the size of the park, the history of Aston Villa etc and the role the club plays in the community and could play in upgrading the area, would that be too much to ask?

The park is now less than one-ninth of it's original size. We can't continue to make demands on the local community whenever we feel like it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: KevinGage on May 12, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
How feasible would it be to reconfigure the Holte into a single tier without having to bulldoze the whole lot?

Dig down rather than build up.

Like the Bernabeu and a few others, set one tier below street level.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on May 12, 2021, 05:51:09 PM
Surely you wouldn't be able to see the pitch? I'll get a ticket for that stand when we play Burnley.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 06:19:57 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.
That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 06:21:45 PM
Surely you wouldn't be able to see the pitch? I'll get a ticket for that stand when we play Burnley.
That's funny lol
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on May 12, 2021, 06:25:32 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.
That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.

I'm not talking about moving the road (as you said in your post). Leave the road there and put the stand on stilts over it.

It's easier said than done but isn't impossible.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 12, 2021, 06:51:10 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.
That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.

I'm not talking about moving the road (as you said in your post). Leave the road there and put the stand on stilts over it.

It's easier said than done but isn't impossible.
Yeah I know what you meant but again that's a very big ask. Walk down Trinity Rd towards the Holte try to visualise the Holte being built up and over the road. I drive that way 2/3 times a week and I've tried. It would be very difficult to do in fact I'd be amazed if they attempted it. All the available land is at the other end of the ground so I'd expect any expansion of the stadium to be happening there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 12, 2021, 07:01:31 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 12, 2021, 07:25:05 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.
But then we're talking a brand new stadium.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 12, 2021, 07:50:07 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.
But then we're talking a brand new stadium.

Basically, yeah. We're hamstrung by the current location, can't do much besides frippery with three sides as it is, the only room for real capacity increase is a big stand where the North sits now, and I get the sense there'd not be much love for something that might outshine The Holte.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on May 12, 2021, 08:30:41 PM
That tapered corner is yet another feature of the ground that should be retained. It's is something unusual, something different and  part of it's character.
The desire to flatten, straighten, level and square off football grounds has given us Stoke, Sunderland and Middlesbrough, and we have lost the Vetch, The Dell and the glorious hump backed Kop at Hillsborough.
Oddities are good, strange shapes are interesting, grounds should not be uniform.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on May 12, 2021, 08:35:20 PM
Well said, as ever, Nev.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on May 12, 2021, 09:03:08 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.
But then we're talking a brand new stadium.

Basically, yeah. We're hamstrung by the current location, can't do much besides frippery with three sides as it is, the only room for real capacity increase is a big stand where the North sits now, and I get the sense there'd not be much love for something that might outshine The Holte.

Leaving the Trinity and Holte where they are and doing what we can to replace the North (without overshadowing the Holte) and improve the DE you're looking at 50-55k, shift the pitch a little and you could possible add another 5k to that but the cost would be insane, we'd need a temporary ground for a year or 2 and nothing that is there would survive.

If you're going to do that you might as well find a new location and build a 70k+ stadium from scratch on a less restricted site, either way you piss off a huge number of fans so why not go for the one with the bigger commercial impact? If you're destroying everything anyway you don't do it for a marginal gain.

I don't think they have any intention of that though, I suspect a new North Stand, improvements to the DE and internal refits for the other 2 are as far as they'd go.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: JD on May 13, 2021, 05:10:23 AM
Surely you wouldn't be able to see the pitch? I'll get a ticket for that stand when we play Burnley.

Brilliant CD, a real lol moment.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on May 13, 2021, 07:13:23 AM
That tapered corner is yet another feature of the ground that should be retained. It's is something unusual, something different and  part of it's character.
The desire to flatten, straighten, level and square off football grounds has given us Stoke, Sunderland and Middlesbrough, and we have lost the Vetch, The Dell and the glorious hump backed Kop at Hillsborough.
Oddities are good, strange shapes are interesting, grounds should not be uniform.

Absolutely this for me too.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on May 13, 2021, 07:38:18 AM
The Vetch and the Dell were totally shote though and Hillsborough is a state these days too.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on May 13, 2021, 08:19:16 AM
I donít think weíre looking to turn Villa Park into a shithole.

Agreeing with Nev, I hope when itís done, itís done with some originality and a nod to our past, rather than starting to turn it into another bowl that looks like all the others.

As for Hillsborough, Iíve been in the Leppings before and after April 1989. It should have been bulldozed once the enquiries had finished. The visit in August 2016 for the first game of the season confirmed that the upper deck of that stand is still dangerous and Iíve no doubt is exactly the same as we speak.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on May 13, 2021, 08:57:06 AM
I was astonished at how neglected Hillsborough has been. To think that back in the day it was a standard FA Cup semi final venue as one of the best grounds in the land and now look at it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on May 13, 2021, 09:31:56 AM
Of course the point of my post was to drag facilities back 30 years and put fans at risk rather than a longing for original and individual design features.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on May 13, 2021, 10:01:31 AM
I loved The Dell, classic Archie Leitch pragmatism, building stands around any external obstacles and leaving some strange looking terraces.  He did the same at the old Den - managed to create a wonky looking gem out of an area surrounded from all sides by railway lines. For what itís worth, I donít think any major development is required at Villa Park, except  maybe more pubs in the vicinity. But then Iím a ďlegacy fanĒ, as clubs like to refer to anyone who doesnít blindly buy into whatever the latest soccer fad is
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on May 13, 2021, 10:39:42 AM
Hillsborough is what Villa Park could well have become if we'd ended up staying down the divisions for 20 years as they have. With vastly reduced income trying to keep a big ground in top condition and with the times is difficult. It will be even harder still now.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on May 13, 2021, 11:00:53 AM
Hillsborough hasn't changed in 25 years...
Ellend Road is also a tip as is Old Trafford.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on May 13, 2021, 12:52:18 PM
We could build over the road in the same way we did with the Trinity.
That's what I said in my post but its notoriously difficult to purchase land earmarked as a public space and even if we could the lie of the land in Aston Park would give us even more problems. It's not impossible but it's challenging.
we could maybe just lease what we need, instead of buying it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 13, 2021, 01:10:58 PM
Hillsborough hasn't changed in 25 years...
Ellend Road is also a tip as is Old Trafford.

Thatís another thing Man U fans are pissed off about and I donít blame them. Theyíve watched clubs around them significantly upgrade their stadiums or get new ones and theirs has in large part stayed still. For all of their immense revenue they talk a big game but still donít compete at the very top end of the market. They might this summer after all the ESL talk to placate the fans, but give it a year or two and they current owners will go back to what they have been doing.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on May 13, 2021, 01:22:55 PM
Next year would have been the Trinityís 100th anniversary. ďThe St Pancras of footballĒ, according to Inglis.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 13, 2021, 01:46:41 PM
I don't know much about the history of Porto's EstŠdio do Drag„o, but from looking at a few photos, it looks like it has transitioned from four separate stands to having 'filled in the corners' in a best-of-both-worlds way.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on May 13, 2021, 01:55:03 PM
I still think we should move the pitch 50 yards towards Witton.
But then we're talking a brand new stadium.

Basically, yeah. We're hamstrung by the current location, can't do much besides frippery with three sides as it is, the only room for real capacity increase is a big stand where the North sits now, and I get the sense there'd not be much love for something that might outshine The Holte.

Leaving the Trinity and Holte where they are and doing what we can to replace the North (without overshadowing the Holte) and improve the DE you're looking at 50-55k, shift the pitch a little and you could possible add another 5k to that but the cost would be insane, we'd need a temporary ground for a year or 2 and nothing that is there would survive.

Is it really that bad a thing if the North Stand overshadows the Holte End?  Doesn't look like Leitch or Rinder particularly paid more attention to one than the other ...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4027/4343005519_ec8b730c91_o.jpg)

I reckon just build the biggest, most impressive stand we can on each of the four sides.  We want other sides to come to Villa Park and be wowed.  Four stands, any one of which would be the most impressive stand at 99% of the clubs that visit.  Let them know their place.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on May 13, 2021, 02:04:03 PM
I don't know much about the history of Porto's EstŠdio do Drag„o, but from looking at a few photos, it looks like it has transitioned from four separate stands to having 'filled in the corners' in a best-of-both-worlds way.
It was purpose built for Euro 2004. It hasnít been redeveloped. I saw a game at their previous ground - the pitch had been lowered to extend the lowest tier over the running track.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 13, 2021, 02:06:00 PM
My heart wants the Holte to always be the key stand at VP.  But if they were to build a 'Dortmund Wall' in place of the North Stand it would be hard to argue that it could be great.  Although I think any new stand will have tiers to allow corporate boxes.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 13, 2021, 02:06:22 PM
I don't know much about the history of Porto's EstŠdio do Drag„o, but from looking at a few photos, it looks like it has transitioned from four separate stands to having 'filled in the corners' in a best-of-both-worlds way.
It was purpose built for Euro 2004. It hasnít been redeveloped. I saw a game at their previous ground - the pitch had been lowered to extend the lowest tier over the running track.

Yes, just looked at its Wiki page. I was talking bollocks again.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on May 13, 2021, 03:27:06 PM
Is it really that bad a thing if the North Stand overshadows the Holte End?  Doesn't look like Leitch or Rinder particularly paid more attention to one than the other ...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4027/4343005519_ec8b730c91_o.jpg)

I reckon just build the biggest, most impressive stand we can on each of the four sides.  We want other sides to come to Villa Park and be wowed.  Four stands, any one of which would be the most impressive stand at 99% of the clubs that visit.  Let them know their place.

Over 100 years of time has passed since then and that is all part of the ground and the attraction of it. I personally wouldn't have an issue with a bigger North Stand but I suspect a lot of fans wouldn't like it because 'the roar of the holte' is part of their match day experience. This is my point really, the owners need to decide just how far to go with the balance between commercial viability and tradition and I get the impression they will be more conservative than many would expect overall.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 13, 2021, 04:02:02 PM
If the people in the Holte want to make it a competition between them and those in a huge North Stand (Ron Saunders Stand, presumably) as to who can make the most noise, I can only see advantages rather than problems.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: AV82EC on May 13, 2021, 04:03:36 PM
I agree with Sexual Ealing.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 13, 2021, 04:11:19 PM
what a great opportunity to give a nod to the old trinity with a new north stand
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on May 13, 2021, 04:54:37 PM
If the people in the Holte want to make it a competition between them and those in a huge North Stand (Ron Saunders Stand, presumably) as to who can make the most noise, I can only see advantages rather than problems.

Exactly, and based on that picture above, it's what Leitch would've wanted!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on May 13, 2021, 06:22:12 PM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country. We have the space to create something fantastic at the North Stand, and we should definitely do so.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 13, 2021, 07:05:45 PM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country.

The Holte and the South Bank at Molineux were the biggest weren't they?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Axl Rose on May 14, 2021, 05:00:16 AM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country.

The Holte and the South Bank at Molineux were the biggest weren't they?

The South Bank was empty (ish) though, no? Haha
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on May 14, 2021, 08:20:17 AM
Think the Holte became the biggest by default when the south bank was demolished I read somewhere. Itís been probably 15 years since I was last at VP so I could be wrong, but I wouldnít imagine the Holte being redeveloped any time soon. It looks like it has aged well too. Iíd love to see something as or more impressive at the Witton End.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: kipeye on May 14, 2021, 08:58:31 AM
I agree with Sexual Ealing.
This is no place for religion.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on May 14, 2021, 11:58:24 AM
Yeah...you're not supposed to agree with SE. He is meant to agree with others.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on May 14, 2021, 12:01:11 PM
I used to take great pride in the Holte being the biggest standing terrace in the country.

The Holte and the South Bank at Molineux were the biggest weren't they?

The Holte was the biggest stand that was in the same postcode as the pitch it faced.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on May 14, 2021, 12:14:17 PM
The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.

It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.

Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 14, 2021, 12:25:24 PM
The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.

It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.

Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?
I agree with this. It's the only area of the ground with no restraints and we just have to make the most of it. A red brick exterior like the Holte is a must but I'd go bigger. Does it matter if it's bigger than the Holte? I don't think it does. Make it huge. Make it the best. Imagine a stand that could hold 18/20k? It's possible and would once again elevate Villa Park to where it should be. The very best.The Holte is iconic and always will be no matter what.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 14, 2021, 01:20:33 PM
The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.

It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.

Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?

I agree with this. It's the only area of the ground with no restraints and we just have to make the most of it. A red brick exterior like the Holte is a must but I'd go bigger.

Agree with this but happy for it to be just big enough to bring us to over 50k. I would also rename it The (William) McGregor Stand with his statue given pride of place so visiting fans are made well aware of his place in football history.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 14, 2021, 02:22:06 PM
The more and more I think about this the more I think a new North Stand replicating the Holte End is the way to go.

It would really elevate the ground up a notch to a modern, yet classic and unique stadium. The new stand could also incorporate better corporate faciltiies/boxes which may leave the seating capacity smaller than the Holte End but the overall aesthetic would look like a mirror image almost.

Plus, they could make it a little more expensive than the Holte (or reduce the prices in the Holte?) so that our core vocal fan will always choose the Holte?

I agree with this. It's the only area of the ground with no restraints and we just have to make the most of it. A red brick exterior like the Holte is a must but I'd go bigger.

Agree with this but happy for it to be just big enough to bring us to over 50k. I would also rename it The (William) McGregor Stand with his statue given pride of place so visiting fans are made well aware of his place in football history.
The current North Stand holds just under 8,000. We need another 8,000 to pass the 50,000 mark so a rebuilt North Stand would have to hold around 16,000 to achieve that. It would look bloody awesome.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on May 14, 2021, 03:52:41 PM
The Holte loses about 750-1,000 seats because of the corner with Trinity Road. I would imagine a Holte style stand at the Witton end could easily hold 15,000?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 14, 2021, 05:30:03 PM
The Holte loses about 750-1,000 seats because of the corner with Trinity Road. I would imagine a Holte style stand at the Witton end could easily hold 15,000?
So just under the magic 50k mark? They can easily make it slightly wider to make it 16k and the jobs a good un for me.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Flin5tone on May 26, 2021, 11:36:34 AM
Went to the Youth Final on Monday Evening and it felt fantastic to be back at Villa Park but one thing that I noticed was the Stadium is starting to look a bit Tired.

The seats on the front rows in the upper Tier of the DE,Trinity and North Stand have turned almost Pink , I have seen this at other grounds before (Sunderland had a big problem) and noticed some of the Handrails had missing paint. The North Stand needs to come down and the other stands need a little work on them.

Also do not like the Cazoo Advertisement plastered all over the front of the upper Tiers. Not nice to see

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Clampy on May 26, 2021, 11:46:28 AM
Went to the Youth Final on Monday Evening and it felt fantastic to be back at Villa Park but one thing that I noticed was the Stadium is starting to look a bit Tired.

The seats on the front rows in the upper Tier of the DE,Trinity and North Stand have turned almost Pink , I have seen this at other grounds before (Sunderland had a big problem) and noticed some of the Handrails had missing paint. The North Stand needs to come down and the other stands need a little work on them.

Also do not like the Cazoo Advertisement plastered all over the front of the upper Tiers. Not nice to see



Still, I do hope you got to spend your vouchers.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Flin5tone on May 26, 2021, 11:50:42 AM
No, I never used my Vouchers as it was only £6.50 (Restricted View) so did not feel using a voucher with a much greater value was ideal
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 26, 2021, 11:51:03 AM
Went to the Youth Final on Monday Evening and it felt fantastic to be back at Villa Park but one thing that I noticed was the Stadium is starting to look a bit Tired.

The seats on the front rows in the upper Tier of the DE,Trinity and North Stand have turned almost Pink , I have seen this at other grounds before (Sunderland had a big problem) and noticed some of the Handrails had missing paint. The North Stand needs to come down and the other stands need a little work on them.

It could be worse, the signs at Villa Park could have random capital letters all over the place.

I'm sure any maintenance work that needed to be done was being deferred until fans were actually coming back. Not a big issue unless you're looking for something to complain about.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 26, 2021, 12:01:07 PM
He's just commenting that some of the seats look tired.  No it's not a massive issue but he's right, they do.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 26, 2021, 12:03:54 PM
It's probably the sort of thing that happens every season and gets sorted in the summer.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 12:25:51 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7k

Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.   
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: berneboy on May 26, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
I agree with Sexual Ealing.
I agree with Nick
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 26, 2021, 04:11:09 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7k

Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Rebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we donít have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on May 26, 2021, 04:41:16 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7k

Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Rebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we donít have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.

Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.

I have to say, maybe clouded in my excitement at just being back at the football, but all things considered, the ground looked fantastic.

Iím wondering now if I was stood next to a poster on here, because he was moaning through most of the game (believe it or not) and missing handrail paint wouldíve been right up his street.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on May 26, 2021, 05:13:09 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7k

Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Rebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we donít have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.

Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.

I have to say, maybe clouded in my excitement at just being back at the football, but all things considered, the ground looked fantastic.

Iím wondering now if I was stood next to a poster on here, because he was moaning through most of the game (believe it or not) and missing handrail paint wouldíve been right up his street.

Going back into Villa Park on Monday I also thought it looked great considering it's been empty for a year. 

However, having been an advocate of keeping 4 separate stands all along, I did find a little gripe that would be addressed by filling in the corners.  In the first half the sun was setting directly behind the gap in between the Trinity and North Stand, and made it really difficult to watch the game from where I was sitting.  I know this is down to an unusual kick off time at an unusual time of year to be playing, but it's not something I've ever noticed in the Lower Holte before - as and when they do rebuild the North then it would at least stop this.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: rjp on May 26, 2021, 05:38:02 PM
I expect I'll get slaughtered for saying this but...

I'd like the Holte to remain the biggest, most imposing stand of the 4 but it'll always be limited by where it is.  What about moving the Holte to where the North Stand is now and having a South Stand instead?

Sacrilege? Probably.  It would give us lots of options though.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 26, 2021, 05:40:08 PM
If you moved it to the other end of the ground, it wouldn't be The Holte End. Unless you moved the pub, too.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Rico on May 26, 2021, 05:50:45 PM
If I remember correctly, when the Holte End was redeveloped the reason for not making it a single tier stand was due to the the constraints of the land that it is on. To keep the capacity up to 40k the stand would have to be huge and the rake would mean that the seats at the rear would be too far from the pitch. Basically, there simply is not enough room at that end of the stadium to make that feasible. Maybe modern building techniques could make it viable, I don't know, but if we were to go with a single tier stand then the North Stand is the most logical place.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Broadlee on May 26, 2021, 06:06:33 PM
Do you think the club may erect a statue to Ron Saunders as part of the re development, construction of museum?
Would it be fitting or are there more worthy candidates from our proud history lineage?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: olaftab on May 26, 2021, 06:06:42 PM
If you moved it to the other end of the ground, it wouldn't be The Holte End. Unless you moved the pub, too.
It will be Nelson end.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:10:12 PM
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldnít be right.

When the new Holte was built I donít think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road.  So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k.  Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 26, 2021, 07:11:37 PM
Maybe include binoculars with the seats at the back of the stand
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 26, 2021, 07:15:50 PM
I think Dortmund season tickets are about £200
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:17:05 PM
Letís face it some fans love being at the back.  The last 10 rows would sell no problem.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 26, 2021, 07:19:17 PM
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldnít be right.

When the new Holte was built I donít think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road.  So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k.  Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 26, 2021, 07:19:48 PM
Would have been a problem back in the days of Wright, Draper, Stone.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on May 26, 2021, 07:22:35 PM
The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: nigel on May 26, 2021, 07:27:33 PM
Rebuild the North Stand add another 7k

Then rebuild the Holte into a proper single tier end like Dortmund but a little bigger 20,750.
Rebuild the North Stand make it 15,000. I don't think they'll touch the Holte. I don't think we could get a single tier 20,000 Stand even if they wanted to. The Yellow Wall wraps around the sides but we donít have the room at the Holte End. It would have to reach a ridiculous height to achieve 20,000 plus.

Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.

I have to say, maybe clouded in my excitement at just being back at the football, but all things considered, the ground looked fantastic.

Iím wondering now if I was stood next to a poster on here, because he was moaning through most of the game (believe it or not) and missing handrail paint wouldíve been right up his street.

Would that be the ZZ Top? 😉
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:27:51 PM
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldnít be right.

When the new Holte was built I donít think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road.  So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k.  Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.

Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 26, 2021, 07:29:18 PM
The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.

Agree with that, on Monday night I was thinking how nice it looked. It's the last thing we should be looking at changing.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 26, 2021, 07:31:23 PM
Imagine having your ticket in Row ZZZ.

Quite a few felt theirs were when TSM was here.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 26, 2021, 07:31:42 PM
The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.

Agree with that, on Monday night I was thinking how nice it looked. It's the last thing we should be looking at changing.
Think what 20k would look like and sound like.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 26, 2021, 08:06:49 PM
The two tiered Holte is fine, I think. It's our iconic stand, the one everybody respects, the one that least needs changing.

Agree with that, on Monday night I was thinking how nice it looked. It's the last thing we should be looking at changing.
Think what 20k would look like and sound like.
It would be brilliant, but as others said it's just a very low priority at the moment.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on May 26, 2021, 09:44:41 PM
It also means closing our main stand for a season and potentially having to play in front of an Arsenalesque atmosphere in the meantime.

Build massive Witton Lane and North Stands and have prices that encourage a sufficient number of noisy riff raff to buy season tickets there before we start thinking of demolishing the Holte.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on May 27, 2021, 02:17:39 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully  and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. Itís nice having 4 separate stands, but itís a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and itís job done.

If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on May 27, 2021, 09:12:15 AM
If anyone's worried about safety given the rake required for a single tier stand it's simple - just install rail seats. That way there are safety barriers throughout the stand and when we're given the green light to bring back standing it'll be even more incredible!!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 27, 2021, 09:28:09 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully  and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. Itís nice having 4 separate stands, but itís a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and itís job done.

If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.

You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on May 27, 2021, 09:51:02 AM
I think the idea to include facilities for the Witton Lane within the new North Stand would be ideal.  The existing facilities in there wouldn't be out of place in Lilliput.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 27, 2021, 10:24:03 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully  and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. Itís nice having 4 separate stands, but itís a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and itís job done.

If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.

You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.


you don't think they would let them go over the road Dave ?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 27, 2021, 10:59:34 AM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully  and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. Itís nice having 4 separate stands, but itís a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and itís job done.

If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.

You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.


you don't think they would let them go over the road Dave ?

Into where? There's green space on the other side of the road then rows of houses that would be overlooked
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on May 27, 2021, 11:07:11 AM
Liverpool bought out a lot of the housing around their main stand to extend it but from memory it wasn't a very pleasant process and damaged relations between the club and the community.

While we have capacity behind the North Stand, that should really be the area of focus when we look to redevelopment but I'm always wary of whether or not we need any more than another 5/10k seats unless we have an unprecedented run of success and for old cynics like me, that seems fanciful.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on May 27, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
Liverpool bought out a lot of the housing around their main stand to extend it but from memory it wasn't a very pleasant process and damaged relations between the club and the community.

While we have capacity behind the North Stand, that should really be the area of focus when we look to redevelopment but I'm always wary of whether or not we need any more than another 5/10k seats unless we have an unprecedented run of success and for old cynics like me, that seems fanciful.


I think Witton Lane needs more space for facilities than anything else , but not sure how viable that is 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Nev on May 27, 2021, 11:23:04 AM
Liverpool bought out a lot of the housing around their main stand to extend it but from memory it wasn't a very pleasant process and damaged relations between the club and the community.

While we have capacity behind the North Stand, that should really be the area of focus when we look to redevelopment but I'm always wary of whether or not we need any more than another 5/10k seats unless we have an unprecedented run of success and for old cynics like me, that seems fanciful.


I think Witton Lane needs more space for facilities than anything else , but not sure how viable that is 

That is the biggest complaint levelled at that particular structure (apart form the name of course) and without extension it hard to see what can be done unless you impinge on the corporate areas which is highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cannock villa on May 27, 2021, 12:08:53 PM
The magical number for me is 48,000 due to that being the capacity in the late 70,s and early 80's
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villa Lew on May 27, 2021, 07:22:08 PM
That's not big enough, it would mean Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Arsenal, Spurs and West Ham would all have bigger capacities than us, I think we've gotta eventually be looking at least 55k.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Richard on May 27, 2021, 10:13:12 PM
Nothing less than 50k it's not worth doing otherwise.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on May 27, 2021, 10:17:56 PM
Nothing less than 50k it's not worth doing otherwise.

I'd go further and say 51,000 so you can aspire to having over 50,000 every game. Nice round number. Attendance just under 50,000 seems wrong. Certainly there is no point in redeveloping to 48k.

I do think they'll wait and see whether people want to come back in such numbers post-Covid before making any commitment to expansion, and can't really blame them if they do.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 27, 2021, 10:26:49 PM
How many do we have on the waiting list for STs?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on May 27, 2021, 10:39:23 PM
I was in the Holte on Monday. All this talk of redevelopment had me looking at the North Stand with a whole new appreciation of its aesthetic, akin to how I felt about the Madin library in that brief period when they'd stripped away all the bollocks that had got added on to it over the years before knocking it down. I like it. It's pretty unique, I can't readily think of anything similar elsewhere.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on May 27, 2021, 10:42:29 PM
There werenít that many stands built in that period. Spurs, wolves, forest. Cant think of any behind goal stands with two levels of boxes.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on May 27, 2021, 10:46:47 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/kKG8xwR/7-ED6-A06-F-C447-4-B5-C-956-D-41-CBE0-D4-DA10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKG8xwR)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on May 28, 2021, 06:52:35 AM
Ive posted these before, but they were the more detailed plans under Lerner.
(https://i.ibb.co/LS2zZHP/BDC1-F79-A-26-AE-490-A-A155-9-BDB7-DB8533-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS2zZHP)

(https://i.ibb.co/pbDthK4/B8-E64899-9-B6-C-4-A98-AC9-E-43-A3379-E5-E1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbDthK4)

(https://i.ibb.co/4mk21gK/3-D3-DCBDB-CB56-47-BA-A5-EA-2941-D1-ABA6-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mk21gK)

(https://i.ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn/FC88-F856-1-A48-4289-B983-1-D1830678-A5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn)

(https://i.ibb.co/1GPLVRV/AF0-F791-B-C8-DF-467-A-AB14-5-FA821670-E73.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GPLVRV)
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on May 28, 2021, 06:55:16 AM
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 28, 2021, 09:43:58 AM
Does that come with a cheese room?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 11:40:18 AM
I'd like to see us aim for 55k, but it's hard to see how we would get there with the current site restrictions. 

Although it looks a bit lopsided, the Lerner plans do make some sense, although I'd prefer to see a better connection to the Witton stand if we go for the horeseshoe solution.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on May 28, 2021, 01:31:50 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 01:34:35 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?
50,734 according to those images
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: aev on May 28, 2021, 01:38:09 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?
50,734 according to those images

Where are these plans/images?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 01:53:58 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?
50,734 according to those images

Where are these plans/images?
In the post above
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ger Regan on May 28, 2021, 02:03:21 PM
The Nirth Stand is the obvious candidate for Phase 1 redevelopment. I think it will happen in the next few years if the fans are allowed back fully  and we fill the ground consistently. I reckon you could squeeze it to ~55,000 if the corners were filled in between the Trinity and Witton Lane. Itís nice having 4 separate stands, but itís a waste of space and it makes sense to do it if the North Stand is rebuilt. Stick the away fans in one corner like at the Emirates and itís job done.

If they really wanted to think big- do the Witton Lane stand out over the road and have it all matched up to the height of the Trinity. That would be the best outcome.

You can't extend Witton Lane because of the houses.


you don't think they would let them go over the road Dave ?

Into where? There's green space on the other side of the road then rows of houses that would be overlooked
As oithers have said, north stand should be the first priority. You could probably squeeze a few more rows out of the witton lane by extending to the back of the footpath, it's unlikely that the overlooking would be any worse than currently experienced. That said, the benefit in terms of additional capacity would unlikely be worth the cost of doing so.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Toronto Villa on May 28, 2021, 02:16:48 PM
I cannot imagine the club will want to be embroiled in bad publicity connected to the local community in any plans to expand the Witton. We are very limited in terms of what can be done there. North has lots of scope for improvement. I want a standard and an exterior facade that all older, more traditional fans (ours and rivals) look at and admire as what a stand should look like, not just walk past or up to it like it didnít exist as theyíve seen it at every other modern ground.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: aev on May 28, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?
50,734 according to those images



Where are these plans/images?
In the post above


I've been censored - I cant see anything!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on May 28, 2021, 02:55:36 PM
Have you got your glasses on?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on May 28, 2021, 02:57:09 PM
What was the mooted capacity under the Lerner plans, 52k?
50,734 according to those images



Where are these plans/images?
In the post above


I've been censored - I cant see anything!
London Villans post above has 5 images attached to it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: aev on May 28, 2021, 03:19:26 PM
I reckon work have  firewalled the images.

Outrageous.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on May 28, 2021, 03:28:18 PM
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.

I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on May 28, 2021, 03:30:46 PM
Yes, same here. Maybe wrap it on the lower corners but leave the claret wall as a stand alone up top.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Smirker on May 28, 2021, 04:12:53 PM
Ive posted these before, but they were the more detailed plans under Lerner.
(https://i.ibb.co/LS2zZHP/BDC1-F79-A-26-AE-490-A-A155-9-BDB7-DB8533-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS2zZHP)

(https://i.ibb.co/pbDthK4/B8-E64899-9-B6-C-4-A98-AC9-E-43-A3379-E5-E1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbDthK4)

(https://i.ibb.co/4mk21gK/3-D3-DCBDB-CB56-47-BA-A5-EA-2941-D1-ABA6-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mk21gK)

(https://i.ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn/FC88-F856-1-A48-4289-B983-1-D1830678-A5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn)

(https://i.ibb.co/1GPLVRV/AF0-F791-B-C8-DF-467-A-AB14-5-FA821670-E73.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GPLVRV)

Looks better than I expected tbh.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Dante Lavelli on May 28, 2021, 06:46:31 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on May 28, 2021, 07:35:57 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on May 28, 2021, 07:37:18 PM
Correct.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on May 28, 2021, 07:45:35 PM
When we first looked at the idea the lower Holte Trinity corner was going to be the trial area. Capacity can't be increased for the reasons Ad@m outlined.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on May 29, 2021, 12:04:50 AM
Ive posted these before, but they were the more detailed plans under Lerner.
(https://i.ibb.co/LS2zZHP/BDC1-F79-A-26-AE-490-A-A155-9-BDB7-DB8533-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LS2zZHP)

(https://i.ibb.co/pbDthK4/B8-E64899-9-B6-C-4-A98-AC9-E-43-A3379-E5-E1-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbDthK4)

(https://i.ibb.co/4mk21gK/3-D3-DCBDB-CB56-47-BA-A5-EA-2941-D1-ABA6-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mk21gK)

(https://i.ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn/FC88-F856-1-A48-4289-B983-1-D1830678-A5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Qs6Hpn)

(https://i.ibb.co/1GPLVRV/AF0-F791-B-C8-DF-467-A-AB14-5-FA821670-E73.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GPLVRV)

Looks better than I expected tbh.
im surprised a stand-alone stand option 3 seems to be the best value option. $16m cheaper than option 1 with only about 700 less seats.

re there any images available of it?

The images of options 1 & 2 look great
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on May 29, 2021, 12:21:04 PM
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldnít be right.

When the new Holte was built I donít think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road.  So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k.  Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.

Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full.
The corners are definitely added to the capacity of the yellow wall. At a guess I'd say the corners add about 7/8,000 between them . Much like the old Kop at Liverpool. It held 28,000 officially but it wrapped right round both sides of the ground so for me it wasn't a true figure of an "end" like the Holte End was. First time I saw the Kop for myself I was shocked how small it was compared to our Holte End.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: DB on May 29, 2021, 12:56:08 PM
Yeah, that slice into the Holte from the road intrusion needs to be corrected, maybe itís a touch of OCD but it does bug me.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: TonyD on May 29, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
Yeah, that slice into the Holte from the road intrusion needs to be corrected, maybe itís a touch of OCD but it does bug me.
If they can build over the road this slice could be turned 180 and so getting slightly bigger at the top.  Do this on the Witton Land side and you could get a huge single tier.  Build it and they will come. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: john e on May 30, 2021, 01:32:27 PM
I thought about rebuilding the north stand with a big single tier and renaming it the Holte but it wouldnít be right.

When the new Holte was built I donít think we could build over the road but they subsequently let the new Trinity be built over the road.  So I reckon with a slightly wider and squarer shape we could get 20k.  Do Dortmund fans complain about the view at the back of their stand??
No they don't but if you think about it the Holte holds 13,500 which is around 7,000 less than the Yellow wall but it's way narrower so the height is probably very similar. I'd love to see 5he actual stats for both stands. I'm a bit of a football ground nerd.
Looks like the Yellow Wall has a couple of corners if you look closely - so maybe they include that in their capacity.

Anyhow with a bit of ingenuity they could build a 20k single tier Holte and it would be full.
The corners are definitely added to the capacity of the yellow wall. At a guess I'd say the corners add about 7/8,000 between them . Much like the old Kop at Liverpool. It held 28,000 officially but it wrapped right round both sides of the ground so for me it wasn't a true figure of an "end" like the Holte End was. First time I saw the Kop for myself I was shocked how small it was compared to our Holte End.

Yeah same for me
76/77 first time I saw the Kop and Stretford end for that matter

Proper piss pooling stands compared to the Holte
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on June 01, 2021, 01:02:42 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on June 01, 2021, 03:58:23 PM
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.

I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
Me too.

It's interesting to see these options because they haven't been made public as far as I'm aware. It looks like a relatively crude optioneering process from a design perspective, but the comparative costs and capacities obviously have some science behind them.

The idea of trying to shoehorn a bowl-like stadium onto the current site worries me a lot - it would be fighting against the innate character of the ground. I think that the CGI of this option looks like a poor man's St James Park, which would be an intense disappointment. It also assumes that the new Trinity Road stand is the best template for a future north stand, which I'm not sure it is. I'm sceptical about the idea that Doug's penny-pinching approach to ground redevelopment has left no room for improvement. Much better to celebrate that Villa Park has, since losing the cycle track, and Leitch's interventions, been a four-sided football ground. It's worth remembering that a constituent of West Ham and even Arsenal supporters to a lesser extent, regret losing the character and identity of their previous grounds.

I would argue that Liverpool's plans for the Anfield Road End, which have been delayed by Covid, offer a better direction. This two-tier stand will have a 16k capacity - higher than the Kop. The same footprint would fit on the space available at the Witton End at VP, and would increase the total capacity to approx 53k. It could provide better family, corporate and away facilities, and allow for subsequent redevelopment of the Witton Lane.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 04:51:54 PM
Max capacity with that plan 50,734.

I'd rather the 50,198 with a stand alone North Stand option.
Me too.

It's interesting to see these options because they haven't been made public as far as I'm aware. It looks like a relatively crude optioneering process from a design perspective, but the comparative costs and capacities obviously have some science behind them.

The idea of trying to shoehorn a bowl-like stadium onto the current site worries me a lot - it would be fighting against the innate character of the ground. I think that the CGI of this option looks like a poor man's St James Park, which would be an intense disappointment. It also assumes that the new Trinity Road stand is the best template for a future north stand, which I'm not sure it is. I'm sceptical about the idea that Doug's penny-pinching approach to ground redevelopment has left no room for improvement. Much better to celebrate that Villa Park has, since losing the cycle track, and Leitch's interventions, been a four-sided football ground. It's worth remembering that a constituent of West Ham and even Arsenal supporters to a lesser extent, regret losing the character and identity of their previous grounds.

I would argue that Liverpool's plans for the Anfield Road End, which have been delayed by Covid, offer a better direction. This two-tier stand will have a 16k capacity - higher than the Kop. The same footprint would fit on the space available at the Witton End at VP, and would increase the total capacity to approx 53k. It could provide better family, corporate and away facilities, and allow for subsequent redevelopment of the Witton Lane.
I agree with all of this and I believe it's the way to go. There's plenty of land behind the stadium to add a "Box Park" at Wembley type of entertainment venue. The new Brookvale academy development could solve any parking issues which could be utilised on matchdays with a ferrying system for the short trip to the ground. And one more thing: while they're at it I'd love them to sort out the messy corner between the Lower Witton Lane and the Lower Holte where we lose a few hundred seats. Mr penny pincher left his mark there. With some modern engineering it shouldn't be too difficult to resolve.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on June 01, 2021, 05:11:37 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on June 01, 2021, 05:13:39 PM
Bring Tony back with his smart-city idea. Gabby as the face to front it.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Des Little on June 01, 2021, 05:16:01 PM
The new plans need to incorporate an Ali Baba Megastore as well.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: FatSam on June 01, 2021, 05:38:09 PM
im surprised a stand-alone stand option 3 seems to be the best value option. $16m cheaper than option 1 with only about 700 less seats.

re there any images available of it?

The images of options 1 & 2 look great

Options 2 and 3 involve demolishing part of the current Trinity Road Stand, so Option 1 involves building more seats to reach a similar capacity to Option 3. This is why the build costs are higher.

Options 1 and 2 seem to accommodate more hospitality, which brings higher revenue, but I can't believe that wouldn't be possible with a variation on Option 3. For a start off, I'd suggest a standalone should aim to be c. 2.5k seats larger than they have indicated (to achieve a similar capacity to the proposed Anfield Road End). I'm also not completely convinced that the bowl corner in Options 2 and 3, which reduces the separation from the houses to the south, would be acceptable. The view of the sky from these properties would be further reduced.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 06:32:20 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 01, 2021, 06:45:37 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Itís surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think thereís also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 06:57:23 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Itís surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think thereís also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on June 01, 2021, 07:06:45 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?

Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 01, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
Yeah. The suggestion that standing=greater capacity is only really true in new builds.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on June 01, 2021, 07:20:55 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?

Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
What if there's already enough to cope with a higher capacity?  I'm not saying there is, but surely an analysis has to be done?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: algy on June 01, 2021, 07:24:54 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?
Because people don't generally visit Wembley every week, and when they do it's a bit of an event.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: London Villan on June 01, 2021, 07:28:09 PM
Wembley is very much a destination now though and id guess there are plenty if events at the arena as well as the stadium. The semi permanent idea would be good though.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on June 01, 2021, 08:42:53 PM
Do any of the current stands lend themselves to safe standing?

The Lower Holte would be ideal.  Adding maybe 2-3k to the capacity and also adding to the atmosphere.  Having googled it, Xia reckoned that two areas of the lower holte could be used.  Might as well do the whole thing and avoid issued with standing/sitting in the same stand. 

Someone more qualified than me will be able to confirm but I don't think you could increase the capacity of an already built stand by converting it to safe standing as the capacity is dictated by the safety certificate which is driven by entrances, exits and concourse areas.
But can you get an updated safety certificate assuming access etc is up to scratch?

Probably but the only way it'll show a higher capacity would be if there were more turnstiles, exits, gangways, etc which can't be done without rebuilding the stand.
What if there's already enough to cope with a higher capacity?  I'm not saying there is, but surely an analysis has to be done?

I just don't see why we would've designed the Holte as an all-seater stand, in an era where standing had been fairly recently outlawed, but with the safety standards required for a terrace of a much higher capacity.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 01, 2021, 08:50:08 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Itís surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think thereís also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.

19 days of the year?

That's not a revenue stream.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 01, 2021, 08:52:41 PM
Has there been anything to suggest that 'safe standing' might be a goer in the UK any time soon? Given recent events at citeh and spurs, I'd think not.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 09:04:54 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Itís surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think thereís also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.

19 days of the year?

That's not a revenue stream.
All the corporate is only 19 days a year. Is that not a revenue stream then?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 01, 2021, 09:09:38 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Itís surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think thereís also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.

19 days of the year?

That's not a revenue stream.
All the corporate is only 19 days a year. Is that not a revenue stream then?

Yes, it is, but it's an existing function inside the stadium itself. It doesn't require any further investment.

Also, re the earlier post, Wembley will be used way more often, by way more people, than Villa Park is. Not even close.

Two enormous concert venues - the Arena and the Stadium - for a start. Then the massive conferencing venues around it, the residential flats, all of that.

Villa Park has no footfall or commercial activity outside match days.

re numbers: In the last 'normal' year, Wembley Stadium hosted 38 shows, 855,809 tickets sold. That's just concerts at the stadium.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 01, 2021, 09:10:46 PM
Wembley is a 365 days a year tourist destination for a start.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 01, 2021, 09:20:13 PM
Has there been anything to suggest that 'safe standing' might be a goer in the UK any time soon? Given recent events at citeh and spurs, I'd think not.

What recent events?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Lastfootstamper on June 01, 2021, 09:33:59 PM
Has there been anything to suggest that 'safe standing' might be a goer in the UK any time soon? Given recent events at citeh and spurs, I'd think not.

What recent events?


At club level, citeh have reduced the number of seats in their ground in favour of advertising, and similarly spurs fucked their fans off upstairs when they were allowed back in instead of letting them in where advertising held greater sway pitchside. If it becomes a commercial decision, it ain't happening.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 01, 2021, 09:39:40 PM
Thanks. I don't recall either of those clubs being massively in favour, Celtic seemed to have got quite far with it pre-Covid, as I recall. No idea if it has been forgotten about, now.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 01, 2021, 10:15:37 PM
Who on earth is going to travel into Aston to visit a BoxPark style venue?  No way can somewhere like that survive on 18 match days a season.  A leisure type development is just pie on the sky with the grounds location.  A more semi permanent area for mobile street food vendors with outdoor seating and some bars and perhaps a bit of weather cover could be an option though I guess.
Villa Park is used way more often than Wembley so how does box park survive?

Itís surrounded by huge resi towers now.  I think thereís also a uni campus there too.

Decent mobile street food options, with coverings, is probably the most viable option at Villa Park.
Yeah I get that and Aston is hardly known for its thriving nightlife nowadays.But with the amount of matchday pubs we've lost around the ground and the fact that we're talking about extending the ground to around 50,000 something along those lines could be a good move. And don't forget it would be owned and run by the club and could be a valuable income stream on matchday.

19 days of the year?

That's not a revenue stream.
All the corporate is only 19 days a year. Is that not a revenue stream then?

Yes, it is, but it's an existing function inside the stadium itself. It doesn't require any further investment.

Also, re the earlier post, Wembley will be used way more often, by way more people, than Villa Park is. Not even close.

Two enormous concert venues - the Arena and the Stadium - for a start. Then the massive conferencing venues around it, the residential flats, all of that.

Villa Park has no footfall or commercial activity outside match days.

re numbers: In the last 'normal' year, Wembley Stadium hosted 38 shows, 855,809 tickets sold. That's just concerts at the stadium.
Don't look like I'm winning this one. Oh well probably just a pipe dream. Maybe we can have a beer tent and a few burger  vans .
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on June 02, 2021, 11:15:28 AM
In terms of revenue streams, Box Park make their money by letting out units to permanent restaurants and leisure operators, rent include a percentage of turnover.  No leisure operator will rent and run a permanent unit for 1 match day every other week.

However, the club could do in-house catering or, as suggested earlier mobiile food vendors but with a better covered seated area.  The key thing for me would be to include a few bars and seating under cover - those semi permanent big top type canopies or that type of thing.  But even if they do, with our weather I'm not sure if that will be enough to drag people there early to spend money or not.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on June 15, 2021, 05:27:46 PM
Liverpool have permission to increase their Anfield Road Stand by 7,000, taking over all capacity to 61,000

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/12333093/liverpool-given-green-light-to-increase-anfield-capacity-to-61-000

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/uk-sports/2020/02/12/liverpool-hope-to-launch-anfield-road-redevelopment-by-end-of-2020/

They're also trialling rail seating.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on June 15, 2021, 09:09:20 PM
That makes us jealous so no more about Liverpool, please!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: mr underhill on June 16, 2021, 08:38:28 AM
is there a case for a 'cheap' option to increase capacity as the ground currently stands  to mitigate the risk of huge infrastructure investment?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 16, 2021, 09:07:52 AM
is there a case for a 'cheap' option to increase capacity as the ground currently stands  to mitigate the risk of huge infrastructure investment?

I suppose the cheapest option to significantly increase capacity is rebuilding the North Stand and leaving everything else alone.

Personally I hope they spend hundreds of millions making the ground the best in the world, as befits the club that plays there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Demitri_C on June 16, 2021, 09:43:37 AM
I was reading leeds are planning to extend elland road to 55k. We need tk start thinking about the expansion if we have the demand which i think we definitely will once fans are back.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on June 16, 2021, 09:44:05 AM
Good, Elland Road is an absolute toilet.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Pat Mustard on June 16, 2021, 09:48:24 AM
Good, Elland Road is an absolute toilet.

It's basically St Andrews with an extra tier on one of the stands.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on June 16, 2021, 10:11:33 AM
Yep, having grown up being told by the media how amazing Elland Road is I was amazed what a dump it was when I went the first year we spent in the Championship.

We need to get cracking with Villa Park though or we'll get left behind. I don't want it done on the cheap though - that's how we ended up with the Trinity where once stood one of the most beautiful stands on the planet.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: in exile on June 16, 2021, 10:35:08 AM
...I don't want it done on the cheap though - that's how we ended up with the Trinity where once stood one of the most beautiful stands on the planet.
Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: john e on June 16, 2021, 10:35:54 AM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose itís hark back to the past

I donít really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets donít really bother me to be honest

Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways

I realise Iím probably in the minority

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on June 16, 2021, 10:41:36 AM
I agree John. I really enjoyed Barnsley for the location as much as anything, down some terraced backstreets.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: john e on June 16, 2021, 11:04:24 AM
I agree John. I really enjoyed Barnsley for the location as much as anything, down some terraced backstreets.

Same,
went to Oakwell when we were down there and thought it was a proper ground enjoyed the visit but not the football
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Villan82 on June 16, 2021, 11:11:28 AM
As a kid Villa Park was one of, if not the, finest grounds.

The North Stand simply needs addressing. I think I said earlier in the thread that, aside from the capacity aspect, the facilities in that end are dreadful and have been for some time. It always feels a bit cramped and unsafe in there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: robbo1874 on June 16, 2021, 11:19:18 AM
Only been in the north stand once or twice. Last time was v Wolves in a 1-1 draw when they first came up. Mightíve been the season there were us, blues Albion and Wolves all up, early 2000s. Inside it was cramped and dark and the facilities were shite. Good view of the match from upstairs though. Itís had its day.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 16, 2021, 11:21:34 AM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on June 16, 2021, 11:23:08 AM
If this season goes smoothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Brazilian Villain on June 16, 2021, 11:26:26 AM
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

Plus LeeB and Brian Green.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on June 16, 2021, 11:30:10 AM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.

If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on June 16, 2021, 11:35:50 AM
They'll replace it with a bigger and better stand that will have good views. Relax maaaaan!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: dave.woodhall on June 16, 2021, 11:37:47 AM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose itís hark back to the past

I donít really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets donít really bother me to be honest

Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways

I realise Iím probably in the minority



I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: mr underhill on June 16, 2021, 11:49:00 AM
isn't Barnsley's ground right next to the railway line too, which adds to charm.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 16, 2021, 01:03:33 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.

If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.
The North Stand and the Witton Lane are equally poor imo. Them two need addressing first. We are being left behind stadium wise just look at some of the club grounds in the Euros. We really do need to do something impressive if we are going to he taken seriously as a European force. I'd like to think the owners are aware of this but of course it's a balancing act of trying to upgrade the team and the Stadium at the same time.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on June 16, 2021, 01:06:29 PM
it's a balancing act of trying to upgrade the team and the Stadium at the same time.

Not if you're gazillionaires like our owners are - spending on the players is capped by FFP rules, but I'm pretty sure infrastructure spending is unrestricted.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Axl Rose on June 16, 2021, 01:10:17 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.

If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.

I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable. It's got the potential to be absolutely amazing when redeveloped. The Witton is the worst though.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ad@m on June 16, 2021, 01:12:12 PM
The worst thing about the Witton is the name on the side.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on June 16, 2021, 01:14:54 PM
I disagree, I think that stand serves as a perfect monument to him to be fair. When it gets replaced with something decent it should be renamed though.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: chrisw1 on June 16, 2021, 01:15:30 PM
I don't see them changing the Witton any time soon.  Disaster as it is in the concourses etc, the view is fine and it looks ok from the pitch side.  Given the lack of space they're not going to be able to do much capacity wise with it so unfortunately I think it's there to stay for the forseeable future.

A big North Stand, similar to Liverpools proposed Anfield Road Stand is probably the best we can hope for in the medium term, with the filling of corners in the lower tiers only.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on June 16, 2021, 01:31:29 PM
Can't believe the gantry, press and media used to be in the Doug. Did they all used to kick-off about how shit and cramped it was?
No wonder we often had bad reviews of our games by the London press. Nowt to do with regularly getting beat by the scab-six obvs...
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 16, 2021, 01:31:48 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.

If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.

I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable.

Itís bigger than that surely?
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: LeeB on June 16, 2021, 01:33:18 PM
Jesus, I fucked those quotes up good and proper.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 16, 2021, 01:38:17 PM

i am always doing that





Jesus, I fucked those quotes up good and proper.

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on June 16, 2021, 01:38:40 PM
Anyone got this? Looks lovely.

(https://i.ibb.co/6HNkcy3/61-Vrz-FK88u-L-SX427-BO1-204-203-200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6HNkcy3)

Aerial shots of football grounds are my fave, though, where you can see how they fit into their surroundings.
I think there's a channel on youtube of a drone flying over various football stadiums, great idea.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: paul_e on June 16, 2021, 02:23:27 PM
Can't believe the gantry, press and media used to be in the Doug. Did they all used to kick-off about how shit and cramped it was?
No wonder we often had bad reviews of our games by the London press. Nowt to do with regularly getting beat by the scab-six obvs...

Not long after it opened my friend and his dad had season tickets on the back row of the upper tier along with a few relatives and I went with them a few times. At one evening game we'd arrived pretty early and there were a couple of guys doing something to one of the cameras and one of them said something along the lines of it being the newest stand that was totally unfit for purpose.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Axl Rose on June 16, 2021, 02:32:01 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.

If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.

I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable.

Itís bigger than that surely?

That's made me chuckle, mate! Cheers!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Drummond on June 16, 2021, 02:50:16 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose itís hark back to the past

I donít really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets donít really bother me to be honest

Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways

I realise Iím probably in the minority



I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.

I tell you what though. I go past Bramall Lane a few times a week, and from the outside of the South Stand and Kop (the bits you don't really see as an away fan) it looks really dated and you wonder how, with the Kop anyway, how the thing is still there. And the facilities for home fans are truly appalling, in comparison with the away fans at Bramall Lane, never mind our ground. The home fans have to go outside to a hatch to get what they want and have a wander across the outside uncovered concourse for a piss.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Percy McCarthy on June 16, 2021, 03:03:26 PM
I went in the North Stand once, during MON's first season.

I'm tall (6 '2) but far from giantesque and for 90 minutes i had the sharp rim of the seat in front wedged into my knees. Incredibly uncomfortable.

Great view, but an awful place to sit and watch football.

If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.
If this season goes sommothly fan wise, the ugly bugger will be torn down next summer and probably only Jimbo will be sorry to see it go.

I'll miss it, the atmosphere, value and view the season we came back were fantastic. Sort that disgraceful Witton Lane stand out first.

I like the North Stand too, but at 6 '3 it's a bit uncomfortable.

Itís bigger than that surely?

That's made me chuckle, mate! Cheers!

*wink*
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: eamonn on June 16, 2021, 03:11:31 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose itís hark back to the past

I donít really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets donít really bother me to be honest

Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways

I realise Iím probably in the minority



I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.

I tell you what though. I go past Bramall Lane a few times a week, and from the outside of the South Stand and Kop (the bits you don't really see as an away fan) it looks really dated and you wonder how, with the Kop anyway, how the thing is still there. And the facilities for home fans are truly appalling, in comparison with the away fans at Bramall Lane, never mind our ground. The home fans have to go outside to a hatch to get what they want and have a wander across the outside uncovered concourse for a piss.

Jesus....grim oop north or what?

Nah, I love Sheff. Great place.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Stu82 on June 16, 2021, 04:01:03 PM

Way back when the Holte was being redeveloped, if I was working in Brum, I would visit Villa Park for a look at the build. I would park in North stand car park and they used to leave the gate at the north stand open so you could stand, on the lower section and gaze upon the building work, and take in the special feeling of being one of  few there.
One sunny day I was standing when an old chap stood next to me and had a chat. He was dressed as old people used to dress, suit waistcoat and tie on and in his 70ís
We reminisced about the Holte end, and then he said how his father used to call the (old) Trinity road stand built in 1924 the new stand, and said it was the stand that set us apart from the other clubs. He told me his Dad said to him, ďSunderland may be winning the league and be the best football team, but Aston Villa are the aristocrats of football, and donít you forget itĒ. Kind of made me feel so proud to be a Villa fan.   
Then we knocked it all down!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: The Edge on June 16, 2021, 04:05:40 PM
Anyone got this? Looks lovely.

(https://i.ibb.co/6HNkcy3/61-Vrz-FK88u-L-SX427-BO1-204-203-200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6HNkcy3)

Aerial shots of football grounds are my fave, though, where you can see how they fit into their surroundings.
I think there's a channel on youtube of a drone flying over various football stadiums, great idea.
Cheers I'll have a look for that. I'm a bit of a football stadia nerd tbh.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: CT on June 16, 2021, 04:48:51 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose itís hark back to the past

I donít really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets donít really bother me to be honest

Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways

I realise Iím probably in the minority



I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.

Small Heathís wasnít built to last though! But yes, absolutely agree. 
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: SoccerHQ on June 18, 2021, 01:38:54 PM
I always quite liked visiting old fashioned dumpy grounds
I suppose itís hark back to the past

I donít really go to a football match looking for the same comfort level as the theatre or the cinema so a post in front of me or scabby toilets donít really bother me to be honest

Goodison Park, Elland Road, Craven Cottage, Bramal lane etc all Premier League grounds last season were My favourites above all the new identikit type grounds with soulless atmospheres but hey they got wider the walkways

I realise Iím probably in the minority



I agree. And the other thing is that they were built to last. The new grounds are looking outdated already.

I tell you what though. I go past Bramall Lane a few times a week, and from the outside of the South Stand and Kop (the bits you don't really see as an away fan) it looks really dated and you wonder how, with the Kop anyway, how the thing is still there. And the facilities for home fans are truly appalling, in comparison with the away fans at Bramall Lane, never mind our ground. The home fans have to go outside to a hatch to get what they want and have a wander across the outside uncovered concourse for a piss.

Isn't the Kop build on stilts aswell?

That said I love grounds you can wander to 5 minutes from city centre and inside the view from away end in upper or lower tier is very good, proper right on top of the action so imo miles better than Hillsborough.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: john e on June 18, 2021, 02:03:59 PM
A few seasons ago I was sitting on the left hand side of the away end at Craven cottage the view of the Thames was quite beautiful

A lot more beautiful than the game if I remember rightly
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 18, 2021, 02:04:47 PM
I always end up watching the river when I go to Fulham away. Possibly because we are nearly always shit there.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: pauliewalnuts on June 18, 2021, 02:06:06 PM
I always end up watching the river when I go to Fulham away. Possibly because we are nearly always shit there.

They're building a bigger stand there now, so good chance no river view :-(

I agree, it's great to watch people rowing up and down the Thames whilst we're getting owned by Fulham.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 18, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Duncan Shaw on June 18, 2021, 02:31:43 PM
Yea typical the one year we couldn't go and fill their "neutral" end behind the goal we go and royally spank them!!!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 18, 2021, 02:42:42 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.
In fairness, it is a terrific looking stand, and enhances the view from the river.

https://www.fulhamfc.com/riverside-development/

Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 18, 2021, 02:43:59 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.
In fairness, it is a terrific looking stand, and enhances the view from the river.

https://www.fulhamfc.com/riverside-development/



But I will still be upset if they don't reinstate the Neutral end.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Sexual Ealing on June 18, 2021, 02:53:21 PM
FFS Fulham. Just accept that you're never gonna be big and leave your lovely ground alone.
In fairness, it is a terrific looking stand, and enhances the view from the river.

https://www.fulhamfc.com/riverside-development/



But I will still be upset if they don't reinstate the Neutral end.

If they needed a neutral section in the old ground, they'll certainly need one in the souped up version!
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Simon Page on June 18, 2021, 02:55:23 PM
If you get a rare clear day, the view from the top tier at Hampden is unsurpassed. And of course, you wouldn't want to look at the pitch.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: Ads on June 18, 2021, 03:01:58 PM
They've been building it for years. In January 2020 they'd made very little progress and they'd been working on it since they were promoted the season before I think.
Title: Re: Villa Park Redevelopment
Post by: maidstonevillain on June 18, 2021, 03:13:57 PM
I think they started demolition of old stand in Summer 2019, and serious construction of new stand in Summer 2020, and its nearing completion now. Not rapid, buts its a big job, and its not as if they've needed the capacity for the last year.
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