Quote from: Ketzster on December 06, 2019, 11:04:18 AMQuote from: paul_e on December 06, 2019, 10:57:26 AMSmith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.The changing formation thing isn’t just the starting formation though, it’s the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least he’d have tried something. That’s what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.
Quote from: paul_e on December 06, 2019, 10:57:26 AMSmith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.The changing formation thing isn’t just the starting formation though, it’s the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least he’d have tried something. That’s what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.
Quote from: dave.woodhall on December 06, 2019, 10:52:58 AMQuote from: Risso on December 06, 2019, 10:33:12 AMQuote from: ChicagoLion on December 06, 2019, 10:16:53 AMWhat sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all he’s done?The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.I like Smith and want him to stay and succeed. But if he takes us down or we're cut adrift at any point, he should be chopped. Ranieri won Leicester the title, but looked like relegating them the following season, and after sacking him they'ved ended up with Rodgers and being Liverpool's only challenger for the title this season. I hope we stay up comfortably and then kick on again next season under Smith, mind. Which I think we will do, just need to replace the utterly useless Wesley in January and chalk it down to experience.Leicester also sacked two more managers before they got Rodgers. The last thing we need is another four in three years upheaval. Agreed, and I hope that it doesn't become necessary. The last thing we need is to get relegated again. I don't think it'll happen but Smith and the rest can't sit on their hands in January.
Quote from: Risso on December 06, 2019, 10:33:12 AMQuote from: ChicagoLion on December 06, 2019, 10:16:53 AMWhat sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all he’s done?The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.I like Smith and want him to stay and succeed. But if he takes us down or we're cut adrift at any point, he should be chopped. Ranieri won Leicester the title, but looked like relegating them the following season, and after sacking him they'ved ended up with Rodgers and being Liverpool's only challenger for the title this season. I hope we stay up comfortably and then kick on again next season under Smith, mind. Which I think we will do, just need to replace the utterly useless Wesley in January and chalk it down to experience.Leicester also sacked two more managers before they got Rodgers. The last thing we need is another four in three years upheaval.
Quote from: ChicagoLion on December 06, 2019, 10:16:53 AMWhat sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all he’s done?The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.I like Smith and want him to stay and succeed. But if he takes us down or we're cut adrift at any point, he should be chopped. Ranieri won Leicester the title, but looked like relegating them the following season, and after sacking him they'ved ended up with Rodgers and being Liverpool's only challenger for the title this season. I hope we stay up comfortably and then kick on again next season under Smith, mind. Which I think we will do, just need to replace the utterly useless Wesley in January and chalk it down to experience.
What sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all he’s done?The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.
Quote from: paul_e on December 06, 2019, 11:21:50 AMQuote from: Ketzster on December 06, 2019, 11:04:18 AMQuote from: paul_e on December 06, 2019, 10:57:26 AMSmith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.The changing formation thing isn’t just the starting formation though, it’s the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least he’d have tried something. That’s what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.That argument would be fine if he ever did try anything different. But you can’t say that playing 4-3-3 for every single minute of every single game for over a year, no matter who you are playing is the right thing to do. No a change might not work, but staying the same has cost us anyway. At times there will have been situations that required a tactical change, you can’t go through a whole season where there haven’t been. I can’t think of another manager that has never tried something different. The opposition manager makes a substitution and you sit there dreading it because you know Smith won’t make a change. That’s not right
You're not alone in that opinion, it seems, Ketzster. But for me, one of the primary reasons why I love Smith is that he doesn't change. He has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play, and he's not prepared to compromise. He believes he is right. He's stated how he not only wants to win, but win well. So do I. I'd rather see us risking it all à la '77 than parking the bus with half an hour to go. Stick to our football, the results will come. What Wednesday highlighted for me is that attack is our best form of defence. I don't think we've got the players to play any other way, anyway. We'd just get battered.
Oh, 1 more thing, when was the last time Klopp changed formation for Liverpool midway through a game?
I still think another striker in January and we will be fine. And that doesn't mean I am writing off Wesley, just that we need another striker. We are having the sort of season I pretty much expected and one that is shaping up to be similar to our last season after promotion to the top flight under SGT. But I do hope and believe it won't go all the way to the wire like it did in 1989. I trust Smith, Purslow and the owners to strengthen us further in January.
Quote from: paul_e on December 06, 2019, 11:43:50 AMOh, 1 more thing, when was the last time Klopp changed formation for Liverpool midway through a game?But that’s Liverpool so that’s a pointless argument because we can’t, and shouldn’t be attempting to do what they can do at the moment with the players that we have. They are the best team in the league, so a bit like us last season after Grealish came back, we could get away with it because we had better players than the other teams
One thing I've learned about Smith is that he sees life as a continuous learning experience. I'm sure that he is developing his approach to fit the requirements of a division that is new to him. Hopefully, he sees the need for higher levels of fitness, ball retention and a more ruthless approach to game management by the players.His immediate challenge is - of course - to keep us in this division. To do this, he needs (i) more attacking options, (ii) more support for Grealish in midfield and (iii) better levels of concentration and decision-making in the back 4. I suspect (i) will get done in January (lets hope whoever comes in does not need too long to adjust to the division); (ii) is about Nakamba and Dougie continuing to get up to speed, and (iii) is work-in-progress on the training ground.Bottom line is of course, that we need results: my concern is that the players look knackered! So, the imediate challenge is how to freshen things up.
I think the Chelsea game is a case in point. We were getting torched down our left mainly by Willian and they score from our left. We have seen and Smith must have seen that Hourihane is pretty useless as a defensive midfielder against quick players that run. Target is not the strongest defensive full back either.We get level before half time and Smith has chance to try to prevent the obvious weakness. He could either bring on Taylor for Target or A Stronger midfielder for Hourihane. He does neither and low and behold they attack down our left Target and a Hourihane are as useful as a couple of shop window dummies and they score, game over.He then substitutes Luis for Hourihane and we have a lot less problems down our left.Surely it is not heresy to ask why if people watching the game can see the issue Our coaching team don’t until it is too late.