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Author Topic: Dean Smith - Confirmed  (Read 1521830 times)

Offline Ketzster

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5025 on: December 06, 2019, 11:27:47 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

The changing formation thing isn’t just the starting formation though, it’s the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least he’d have tried something. That’s what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different

and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.

That argument would be fine if he ever did try anything different. But you can’t say that playing 4-3-3 for every single minute of every single game for over a year, no matter who you are playing is the right thing to do. No a change might not work, but staying the same has cost us anyway. At times there will have been situations that required a tactical change, you can’t go through a whole season where there haven’t been. I can’t think of another manager that has never tried something different. The opposition manager makes a substitution and you sit there dreading it because you know Smith won’t make a change. That’s not right
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:31:37 AM by Ketzster »

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5026 on: December 06, 2019, 11:30:35 AM »
What sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all he’s done?
The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.
There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.
I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.

I like Smith and want him to stay and succeed.  But if he takes us down or we're cut adrift at any point, he should be chopped.  Ranieri won Leicester the title, but looked like relegating them the following season, and after sacking him they'ved ended up with Rodgers and being Liverpool's only challenger for the title this season.  I hope we stay up comfortably and then kick on again next season under Smith, mind.  Which I think we will do, just need to replace the utterly useless Wesley in January and chalk it down to experience.

Leicester also sacked two more managers before they got Rodgers. The last thing we need is another four in three years upheaval.

Agreed, and I hope that it doesn't become necessary.  The last thing we need is to get relegated again.  I don't think it'll happen but Smith and the rest can't sit on their hands in January.

And I don't imagine for one second that they will. It's an easy thing to say, but in my lifetime we've got back to the top flight twice, struggled both times in the first season and had Beyond Wildest Dreams times in the next. Both managers were criticised and both rode it out.

Offline Lastfootstamper

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5027 on: December 06, 2019, 11:30:41 AM »
You're not alone in that opinion, it seems, Ketzster. But for me, one of the primary reasons why I love Smith is that he doesn't change. He has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play, and he's not prepared to compromise. He believes he is right.
He's stated how he not only wants to win, but win well. So do I. I'd rather see us risking it all à la '77 than parking the bus with half an hour to go.
Stick to our football, the results will come. What Wednesday highlighted for me is that attack is our best form of defence. I don't think we've got the players to play any other way, anyway. We'd just get battered.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:34:21 AM by Lastfootstamper »

Offline TheMalandro

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5028 on: December 06, 2019, 11:32:12 AM »
Other than a few gripes about substitutions and not signing Maupay, I have no complaints about Smith.

I think he's bloody great.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5029 on: December 06, 2019, 11:42:32 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

The changing formation thing isn’t just the starting formation though, it’s the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least he’d have tried something. That’s what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different

and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.

That argument would be fine if he ever did try anything different. But you can’t say that playing 4-3-3 for every single minute of every single game for over a year, no matter who you are playing is the right thing to do. No a change might not work, but staying the same has cost us anyway. At times there will have been situations that required a tactical change, you can’t go through a whole season where there haven’t been. I can’t think of another manager that has never tried something different. The opposition manager makes a substitution and you sit there dreading it because you know Smith won’t make a change. That’s not right

No, some people sit there dreading it, again, that's on you.

He's tried plenty of different things, tactics don't start and end with the formation. compare the positions El Ghazi was getting into in the last couple of games to earlier games in the season and we quite clearly had a plan to get him closer to Wesley. Look at the position Jack is in now compared to the start of the season. There are plenty of other things we've done for a game or 2 here and there to adapt to a specific threat or weakness of the team we're playing against so he does try lots of different things.

What he doesn't do is roll the dice and make changes on the fly and I don't think he's wrong on that.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5030 on: December 06, 2019, 11:43:50 AM »
Oh, 1 more thing, when was the last time Klopp changed formation for Liverpool midway through a game?

Offline PeterWithe

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5031 on: December 06, 2019, 11:46:39 AM »
You're not alone in that opinion, it seems, Ketzster. But for me, one of the primary reasons why I love Smith is that he doesn't change. He has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play, and he's not prepared to compromise. He believes he is right.
He's stated how he not only wants to win, but win well. So do I. I'd rather see us risking it all à la '77 than parking the bus with half an hour to go.
Stick to our football, the results will come. What Wednesday highlighted for me is that attack is our best form of defence. I don't think we've got the players to play any other way, anyway. We'd just get battered.

Same here, he plays 4-3-3, every game. The players know thats how we play and what’s expected of them. He’ll gradually buy better players to fit into the system.

He's confident in himself and his system and that’s good enough for me. He’ll still be here in 5 years.

Offline Ketzster

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5032 on: December 06, 2019, 11:47:45 AM »
Oh, 1 more thing, when was the last time Klopp changed formation for Liverpool midway through a game?

But that’s Liverpool so that’s a pointless argument because we can’t, and shouldn’t be attempting to do what they can do at the moment with the players that we have. They are the best team in the league, so a bit like us last season after Grealish came back, we could get away with it because we had better players than the other teams. You might as well say there’s no need for a manager to ever make formation changes
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 12:13:44 PM by Ketzster »

Offline Damo70

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5033 on: December 06, 2019, 11:53:41 AM »
I still think another striker in January and we will be fine. And that doesn't mean I am writing off Wesley, just that we need another striker. We are having the sort of season I pretty much expected and one that is shaping up to be similar to our last season after promotion to the top flight under SGT. But I do hope and believe it won't go all the way to the wire like it did in 1989. I trust Smith, Purslow and the owners to strengthen us further in January.

Offline Mister E

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5034 on: December 06, 2019, 12:05:36 PM »
One thing I've learned about Smith is that he sees life as a continuous learning experience. I'm sure that he is developing his approach to fit the requirements of a division that is new to him. Hopefully, he sees the need for higher levels of fitness, ball retention and a more ruthless approach to game management by the players.
His immediate challenge is - of course - to keep us in this division. To do this, he needs (i) more attacking options, (ii) more support for Grealish in midfield and (iii) better levels of concentration and decision-making in the back 4.
I suspect (i) will get done in January (lets hope whoever comes in does not need too long to adjust to the division); (ii) is about Nakamba and Dougie continuing to get up to speed, and (iii) is work-in-progress on the training ground.

Bottom line is of course, that we need results: my concern is that the players look knackered! So, the imediate challenge is how to freshen things up.

Offline villa `cross the mersey

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5035 on: December 06, 2019, 12:08:08 PM »
I still think another striker in January and we will be fine. And that doesn't mean I am writing off Wesley, just that we need another striker. We are having the sort of season I pretty much expected and one that is shaping up to be similar to our last season after promotion to the top flight under SGT. But I do hope and believe it won't go all the way to the wire like it did in 1989. I trust Smith, Purslow and the owners to strengthen us further in January.
  I agree there Damo but also think we need alternatives for Grealish, not necessarily similar style but another talisman that can lead the side by example and occupy two/three opposite players - I see Maupay scored last night for Brighton - maybe we should have been in for him last summer

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5036 on: December 06, 2019, 12:09:16 PM »
Oh, 1 more thing, when was the last time Klopp changed formation for Liverpool midway through a game?

But that’s Liverpool so that’s a pointless argument because we can’t, and shouldn’t be attempting to do what they can do at the moment with the players that we have. They are the best team in the league, so a bit like us last season after Grealish came back, we could get away with it because we had better players than the other teams

Not really, you said you can't think of another manager who hasn't tried something different, I gave you one. You can add Pep and Poch as well if you like, oh and Wilder too, who might be a comparison you actually accept.

In fact almost every successful manager in the last 30 years has had a shape and style that they build around. In many cases that shape and style evolves over time but not through lurching between formations an hour into a game in a desperate gamble.

Online ChicagoLion

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5037 on: December 06, 2019, 12:12:44 PM »
I think the Chelsea game is a case in point. We were getting torched down our left mainly by Willian and they score from our left. We have seen and Smith must have seen that Hourihane is pretty useless as a defensive midfielder against quick players that run. Target is not the strongest defensive full back either.We get level before half time and Smith has chance to try to prevent the obvious weakness.
He could either bring on Taylor for Target or A Stronger midfielder for Hourihane. He does neither and low and behold they attack down our left Target and a Hourihane are as useful as a couple of shop window dummies and they score, game over.
He then substitutes Luis for Hourihane and we have a lot less problems down our left.
Surely it is not heresy to ask why if people watching the game can see the issue Our coaching team don’t until it is too late.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5038 on: December 06, 2019, 12:14:47 PM »
One thing I've learned about Smith is that he sees life as a continuous learning experience. I'm sure that he is developing his approach to fit the requirements of a division that is new to him. Hopefully, he sees the need for higher levels of fitness, ball retention and a more ruthless approach to game management by the players.
His immediate challenge is - of course - to keep us in this division. To do this, he needs (i) more attacking options, (ii) more support for Grealish in midfield and (iii) better levels of concentration and decision-making in the back 4.
I suspect (i) will get done in January (lets hope whoever comes in does not need too long to adjust to the division); (ii) is about Nakamba and Dougie continuing to get up to speed, and (iii) is work-in-progress on the training ground.

Bottom line is of course, that we need results: my concern is that the players look knackered! So, the imediate challenge is how to freshen things up.

I think the 2 bold points and sides of the same coin. We do have spells in the 2nd half of games where we let teams have too much of the ball by not pressing them enough and by giving it back to them too cheaply. Chasing shadows for long periods is far more tiring (physically and mentally) than controlling the tempo and being able to slow things down when we need to. I actually think the mistakes we've seen from Mings more recently come from an acknowledgement that we need to hold on to the ball better but we've just not quite adjusted to holding the ball in defence for longer so we're a little too vulnerable to being pressed at the minute.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5039 on: December 06, 2019, 12:20:26 PM »
I think the Chelsea game is a case in point. We were getting torched down our left mainly by Willian and they score from our left. We have seen and Smith must have seen that Hourihane is pretty useless as a defensive midfielder against quick players that run. Target is not the strongest defensive full back either.We get level before half time and Smith has chance to try to prevent the obvious weakness.
He could either bring on Taylor for Target or A Stronger midfielder for Hourihane. He does neither and low and behold they attack down our left Target and a Hourihane are as useful as a couple of shop window dummies and they score, game over.
He then substitutes Luis for Hourihane and we have a lot less problems down our left.
Surely it is not heresy to ask why if people watching the game can see the issue Our coaching team don’t until it is too late.

but it's not that simple. If we'd got a freekick 10 minutes into the 2nd half and Hourihane had smashed it into the top corner it would've been the right decision to keep him on, despite the defensive vulnerability. On top of that Hourihane does a very good job running beyond Jack and creating space, again something we have seen be effective at times. Smith decided he wanted to have a midfield to put pressure on their back 4 but they kept the ball too well for us to really take advantage of that choice (other than our goal), in hindsight he got it wrong but given how Chelsea had been playing I can see why he did it and why he wanted to give it more of a chance to work.

 


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