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Author Topic: Dean Smith - Confirmed  (Read 467986 times)

Online cdbullyweefan

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5025 on: December 06, 2019, 10:55:06 AM »
I'm not averse to the idea of sacking managers when they're doing badly, I just don't think Smith is.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5026 on: December 06, 2019, 10:57:26 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

Offline Ketzster

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5027 on: December 06, 2019, 11:01:46 AM »
I have noticed a trend on here over recent years. We lose a  game or two and suddenly people seem to lose a bit of sense of reality or lose their shit, maybe a bit of both. Posts like keltzers amaze me really, it's almost as if us getting promoted passed him by completley or the way we were promoted  wasn't good enough for him.

Smith has had to do so much in such a short space of time and it's still a learning curve for him as manager and its also a learning curve for the club as well. Let's just finish out of the bottom three and take it from there.

If Smith stays we go down and thereís no point in getting promoted just to go straight back down. I donít think Smith is good enough, and I have said that whether weíve won games or lost games. So itís not a knee jerk reaction. As my friends have said, Iíve been consistent on Smith all year. He has a long list of mistakes, whether itís the never changing formation, keep playing Wesley, not making changes during a game, the players messing around on the edge of their own box etc. Why keep playing 4-3-3 when we donít have the pace to do so for example? Any other manager would would get hammered for it. Especially as they are repetitive mistakes. The notion he hasnít found his best team yet, he didnít last season before Derby either. So thatís twice in a year for prolonged periods he hasnít, and if Grealish hadnít come back his managerial ability would have continued to be exposed like it was being. He gets a free ride because he is a Villa fan. Thatís great from a marketing point of view but doesnít necessarily mean he is the best manager we could have for where we are. Results prove that. We finished 5th last season, without Grealish we would have finished near the relegation zone the way things were going when we were reliant on Smith to find a way. And this season we have beaten 4 dreadful teams. Heís a mid championship level manager and with the weaknesses he shows that seems about right.


Where exactly have you said it after we've won games because it wasn't here. Instead you seem to have waited until a bad performance away at Stamford Bridge to then come out and say that Smith is shit and has done nothing of note, that you an't even give him credit for promotion reflects a lot worse on you than anyone else.

No I admit I havenít bothered posting on here for years, apart from briefly last Christmas because I know itís pointless because Iíll just get a reaction like Iím getting, or like other people that dare say anything would get. Why thinking Smith isnít good enough would reflect badly on me is beyond me, and it shows that you arenít actually really allowed an opinion that differs from the parameters of the norm on here

Your last post of last season was after Stoke away so don't come the "I'm being driven away" bollocks.

Dave, before you swear at me, may I point out that not once have I claimed to be being driven away. Bearing in mind Iíve donated to the site every year for the last 12 or so years and have just done so again, thatís pretty insulting really

Saying you're not allowed a different opinion and you haven't posted since Christmas because of the reaction you got is much the same thing.

I canít be bothered with the grief you get for having a different opinion, so no I havenít bothered posting. Youíve only got to look at what happened to others that did and itís just not worth it. Whether they were winding people up or not I donít know, but somebody who donates to the site isnít going to be on a wind up.

The Villa are always reactive, not proactive. Look at Southampton when they got Poch, there was uproar over Adkins but they went and got the better manager.

Offline Ketzster

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5028 on: December 06, 2019, 11:04:18 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

The changing formation thing isnít just the starting formation though, itís the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least heíd have tried something. Thatís what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different

Offline darren woolley

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5029 on: December 06, 2019, 11:16:27 AM »
I love Dean Smith and I think he's doing a great job we will be Ok keep the faith.

Offline Drummond

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5030 on: December 06, 2019, 11:19:51 AM »
I'm with Mr Woolley.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5031 on: December 06, 2019, 11:21:50 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

The changing formation thing isnít just the starting formation though, itís the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least heíd have tried something. Thatís what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different

and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.

Offline Risso

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5032 on: December 06, 2019, 11:22:45 AM »
What sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all heís done?
The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.
There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.
I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.

I like Smith and want him to stay and succeed.  But if he takes us down or we're cut adrift at any point, he should be chopped.  Ranieri won Leicester the title, but looked like relegating them the following season, and after sacking him they'ved ended up with Rodgers and being Liverpool's only challenger for the title this season.  I hope we stay up comfortably and then kick on again next season under Smith, mind.  Which I think we will do, just need to replace the utterly useless Wesley in January and chalk it down to experience.

Leicester also sacked two more managers before they got Rodgers. The last thing we need is another four in three years upheaval.

Agreed, and I hope that it doesn't become necessary.  The last thing we need is to get relegated again.  I don't think it'll happen but Smith and the rest can't sit on their hands in January.

Offline Ketzster

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5033 on: December 06, 2019, 11:27:47 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

The changing formation thing isnít just the starting formation though, itís the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least heíd have tried something. Thatís what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different

and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.

That argument would be fine if he ever did try anything different. But you canít say that playing 4-3-3 for every single minute of every single game for over a year, no matter who you are playing is the right thing to do. No a change might not work, but staying the same has cost us anyway. At times there will have been situations that required a tactical change, you canít go through a whole season where there havenít been. I canít think of another manager that has never tried something different. The opposition manager makes a substitution and you sit there dreading it because you know Smith wonít make a change. Thatís not right
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:31:37 AM by Ketzster »

Offline dave.woodhall

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5034 on: December 06, 2019, 11:30:35 AM »
What sort of club would we be seen to be if we fired Smith after all heís done?
The team does fight for him, there looks like a togetherness. The fans relationship with club and team has been the best for many years. The football is good to watch. We are selling out every week and the bloke got us out of the Division when it looked impossible.
There are so many positive things from the Smith regime.
I am critical of his game management but to suggest we should get rid is truly bonkers.

I like Smith and want him to stay and succeed.  But if he takes us down or we're cut adrift at any point, he should be chopped.  Ranieri won Leicester the title, but looked like relegating them the following season, and after sacking him they'ved ended up with Rodgers and being Liverpool's only challenger for the title this season.  I hope we stay up comfortably and then kick on again next season under Smith, mind.  Which I think we will do, just need to replace the utterly useless Wesley in January and chalk it down to experience.

Leicester also sacked two more managers before they got Rodgers. The last thing we need is another four in three years upheaval.

Agreed, and I hope that it doesn't become necessary.  The last thing we need is to get relegated again.  I don't think it'll happen but Smith and the rest can't sit on their hands in January.

And I don't imagine for one second that they will. It's an easy thing to say, but in my lifetime we've got back to the top flight twice, struggled both times in the first season and had Beyond Wildest Dreams times in the next. Both managers were criticised and both rode it out.

Offline Lastfootstamper

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5035 on: December 06, 2019, 11:30:41 AM »
You're not alone in that opinion, it seems, Ketzster. But for me, one of the primary reasons why I love Smith is that he doesn't change. He has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play, and he's not prepared to compromise. He believes he is right.
He's stated how he not only wants to win, but win well. So do I. I'd rather see us risking it all ŗ la '77 than parking the bus with half an hour to go.
Stick to our football, the results will come. What Wednesday highlighted for me is that attack is our best form of defence. I don't think we've got the players to play any other way, anyway. We'd just get battered.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 11:34:21 AM by Lastfootstamper »

Offline TheMalandro

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5036 on: December 06, 2019, 11:32:12 AM »
Other than a few gripes about substitutions and not signing Maupay, I have no complaints about Smith.

I think he's bloody great.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5037 on: December 06, 2019, 11:42:32 AM »
Smith is far from perfect but the criticism ketzster is giving is so ridiculously over the top that it's not worth addressing directly. The one that particularly annoys me is the 'why won't he change the formation' argument that comes up almost any time any manager has a few poor results. The reason is that changing the formation on a whim, midway through a season very rarely sees an improvement, more often than not the performance levels dip dramatically because the team aren't used to the new shape.

However there are, for me, 2 valid criticisms of Smith right now.

Firstly, he could do better with subs, often making them too late when a player has needed to be replaced for 10 minutes before he responds, this one benefits from hindsight a lot though.

Secondly our performances in the 2nd half don't match the first half. we've scored 12 and conceded 6 in the first half of all our games, that's a very good record and he needs to find a way to replicate that in the 2nd half of games, part of this could be the subs issue but I think there's also been some mental weaknesses at times where the players, collectively, can't seem to believe that they're ahead deep into the 2nd half against Tottenham/Arsenal/Liverpool and that plays on their minds.

The changing formation thing isnít just the starting formation though, itís the game management changing formation. Surely at Arsenal away for example, he could have tried something different to see the game out? But he never does. No we might not have won but at least heíd have tried something. Thatís what drives me mad about him, that he never ever tries anything different

and if he'd changed the formation, whilst we were ahead, and we'd lost the criticism would be that he changed things for no reason. The entire argument is reliant on hindsight and makes assumptions about the result if the change was made, anyone claiming that a change would definitely have altered the result is, simply, talking out of their arse.

That argument would be fine if he ever did try anything different. But you canít say that playing 4-3-3 for every single minute of every single game for over a year, no matter who you are playing is the right thing to do. No a change might not work, but staying the same has cost us anyway. At times there will have been situations that required a tactical change, you canít go through a whole season where there havenít been. I canít think of another manager that has never tried something different. The opposition manager makes a substitution and you sit there dreading it because you know Smith wonít make a change. Thatís not right

No, some people sit there dreading it, again, that's on you.

He's tried plenty of different things, tactics don't start and end with the formation. compare the positions El Ghazi was getting into in the last couple of games to earlier games in the season and we quite clearly had a plan to get him closer to Wesley. Look at the position Jack is in now compared to the start of the season. There are plenty of other things we've done for a game or 2 here and there to adapt to a specific threat or weakness of the team we're playing against so he does try lots of different things.

What he doesn't do is roll the dice and make changes on the fly and I don't think he's wrong on that.

Offline paul_e

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5038 on: December 06, 2019, 11:43:50 AM »
Oh, 1 more thing, when was the last time Klopp changed formation for Liverpool midway through a game?

Offline PeterWithe

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Re: Dean Smith - Confirmed
« Reply #5039 on: December 06, 2019, 11:46:39 AM »
You're not alone in that opinion, it seems, Ketzster. But for me, one of the primary reasons why I love Smith is that he doesn't change. He has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play, and he's not prepared to compromise. He believes he is right.
He's stated how he not only wants to win, but win well. So do I. I'd rather see us risking it all ŗ la '77 than parking the bus with half an hour to go.
Stick to our football, the results will come. What Wednesday highlighted for me is that attack is our best form of defence. I don't think we've got the players to play any other way, anyway. We'd just get battered.

Same here, he plays 4-3-3, every game. The players know thats how we play and whatís expected of them. Heíll gradually buy better players to fit into the system.

He's confident in himself and his system and thatís good enough for me. Heíll still be here in 5 years.