John McGinn - signed (Captain)

[Risso]

Paul’s right of course, playing a few feet forward of where he does for Emery means he was playing too deep. He’ll leave it there, obviously. (He won’t leave it there)

[Risso]

That seems to show him mostly around 10 yards into their half and never anywhere near the penalty box in a game where we had majority position.  It was one of many attempts from Gerrard to force square pegs into round holes but without first coaching them in what he wanted.

Yes the football was rubbish, and the main problem with McGinn was that he was made captain when his form didn't merit him being in the team, but being captain meant that Gerrard was pretty much forced to play him. He wasn't playing in a deep role, mostly he was in a 4-3-3 with Luiz covering the defence, and McGinn and Ramsey taking it in turns to advance forward.

Here are his heatmaps for away games against Leeds and Forest:








Chelsea at home:






West Ham away at the weekend:






He's not playing any more advanced recently, indeed you could argue he's playing a more reserved role. What he's doing is playing better. Better passing, better runs with the ball.

[Ian.]

He’s certainly seems happier and playing well again as is Watkins and Luiz. Our midfield looks far better now under Emery.

[Lastfootstamper]

He seems to be revelling in being given clear instruction about his role in the side. No vaguery, he's playing a position his manager believes he's capable of, and he's doing it very well. From watching him from my seat in the stands I'd say he's playing quite a reserved role, less cavalier, more disciplined, undoutedly more effective.

[tomd2103]

Paul’s right of course, playing a few feet forward of where he does for Emery means he was playing too deep. He’ll leave it there, obviously. (He won’t leave it there)

From what I’ve seen from some recent games is that he is playing on the right of a tight midfield four, which is quite different to how he was employed under Gerrard. 

[OCD]

When Emery took he over, he felt we rushing too much and not taking enough touches. McGinn's the perfect example of that. Before he was taking the minimum number of touches before attempting some sort of Hollywood pass. Often giving possession away. Now he's taking more touches, and playing more simple passes if nothing's on. As a result he's not giving the ball away as much and it's probably helping his confidence.

[Risso]

Paul’s right of course, playing a few feet forward of where he does for Emery means he was playing too deep. He’ll leave it there, obviously. (He won’t leave it there)

From what I’ve seen from some recent games is that he is playing on the right of a tight midfield four, which is quite different to how he was employed under Gerrard. 

It's what we were told to expect when Emery arrived, with one of the full backs, in recent cases the left side with Moreno, bombing forward, and the other side being a bit more controlled.

[adrenachrome]

He seems to be revelling in being given clear instruction about his role in the side. No vaguery, he's playing a position his manager believes he's capable of, and he's doing it very well. From watching him from my seat in the stands I'd say he's playing quite a reserved role, less cavalier, more disciplined, undoutedly more effective.

That's it.

The wee fella is bursting with energy and likes to get involved and put it about. He has a fantastic left foot and is weak on his right. You don't want him near our penalty area committing fouls.

Emery has worked it out. Super John is a valuable asset if used efficiently. 

[brontebilly]

Paul’s right of course, playing a few feet forward of where he does for Emery means he was playing too deep. He’ll leave it there, obviously. (He won’t leave it there)

From what I’ve seen from some recent games is that he is playing on the right of a tight midfield four, which is quite different to how he was employed under Gerrard.

The "box" I think is how the anoracks are referring to our midfield four type set up. With McGinn and Ramsey certainly further infield when we have possession with more onus on Ramsey to come inside and let Digne/Moreno push forward as an extra man. Young/Cash in the main on the opposite side are being told to stay goal side of the ball so we always have at least three back (more a problem for Cash than Young). So you can get McGinn pinning left backs out of position one on one like he did very well at times v Arsenal and Palace (like setting Cash free). That's McGinn at his best for me. He ain't the player with the silkiest skills ...but he's a wily fox around the opposition box like mugging Gueye at Everton for the peno. Should have scored v Palace too.

Under Gerrard near the end this was a complete mess trying to replicate Liverpool's setup with full backs bombing on crossing to nobody and leaving McGinn trying to race back Wijnaldum like to cover Cash on counters. This was also a tactical problem under Emery on the left side against likes of Leicester, Man City and Arsenal but the return of Ramsey instead of Buendia/Coutinho on that side seems to be helping Digne/Moreno a lot more.

It was interesting that McGinn switched back to Kamara's position against WHU as RCM next to Luiz (which used to drive me mad under Smith and Gerrard). But he did very well and to be fair I think Luiz and himself switched over at one point anyway. But while it was ok as a one off that isn't McGinns best position (and also enabled the dreadful Bailey to get another undeserved start). If the Donk is fit, I'd much prefer pushing McGinn back to where he was. WHU snail like press led by Ings also helped the likes of McGinn have an extra second or two to get turned on it (both our CBs benefited from this too). Most teams won't allow that and that's when for me he comes a liability in front of his own box in that position.

[tomd2103]

Paul’s right of course, playing a few feet forward of where he does for Emery means he was playing too deep. He’ll leave it there, obviously. (He won’t leave it there)

From what I’ve seen from some recent games is that he is playing on the right of a tight midfield four, which is quite different to how he was employed under Gerrard. 

It's what we were told to expect when Emery arrived, with one of the full backs, in recent cases the left side with Moreno, bombing forward, and the other side being a bit more controlled.

I've noticed a couple of variations in the formation since he has been here.  Against Palace at home, it was definitely a tight midfield four, with McGinn and Ramsey outside the central two.  The onus was definitely on both full-backs to get forward, which Cash did for the goal.

There has definitely been another variation of formation where Bailey plays like a traditional right winger (Traore did as well on Sunday when he came on), there is a tightish midfield three and the left side is left open for the left-back to get forward.   

[paul_e]

Paul’s right of course, playing a few feet forward of where he does for Emery means he was playing too deep. He’ll leave it there, obviously. (He won’t leave it there)

From what I’ve seen from some recent games is that he is playing on the right of a tight midfield four, which is quite different to how he was employed under Gerrard.

The "box" I think is how the anoracks are referring to our midfield four type set up. With McGinn and Ramsey certainly further infield when we have possession with more onus on Ramsey to come inside and let Digne/Moreno push forward as an extra man. Young/Cash in the main on the opposite side are being told to stay goal side of the ball so we always have at least three back (more a problem for Cash than Young). So you can get McGinn pinning left backs out of position one on one like he did very well at times v Arsenal and Palace (like setting Cash free). That's McGinn at his best for me. He ain't the player with the silkiest skills ...but he's a wily fox around the opposition box like mugging Gueye at Everton for the peno. Should have scored v Palace too.

Under Gerrard near the end this was a complete mess trying to replicate Liverpool's setup with full backs bombing on crossing to nobody and leaving McGinn trying to race back Wijnaldum like to cover Cash on counters. This was also a tactical problem under Emery on the left side against likes of Leicester, Man City and Arsenal but the return of Ramsey instead of Buendia/Coutinho on that side seems to be helping Digne/Moreno a lot more.

It was interesting that McGinn switched back to Kamara's position against WHU as RCM next to Luiz (which used to drive me mad under Smith and Gerrard). But he did very well and to be fair I think Luiz and himself switched over at one point anyway. But while it was ok as a one off that isn't McGinns best position (and also enabled the dreadful Bailey to get another undeserved start). If the Donk is fit, I'd much prefer pushing McGinn back to where he was. WHU snail like press led by Ings also helped the likes of McGinn have an extra second or two to get turned on it (both our CBs benefited from this too). Most teams won't allow that and that's when for me he comes a liability in front of his own box in that position.

This is correct, the important part is that the formation switches between 442 and 4222 in defence and attack (and has loads of nuance on top of that). This means that, when we have the ball, McGinn and Ramsey are in front of Luiz and Kamara (and almost in a 3 with Buendia/Bailey) and hence both are able to get involved further forward in the play. Of course that is relative to the rest of the team and relies on the context of where the game was played in terms of territiorial dominance but surely anyone who understands football already knows that and wouldn't post pointless data that doesn't show what they think it does.

[Risso]

Ha ha, as if by clockwork, Mr "I'll leave it there" doesn't leave it there! I'll repeat for the hard of thinking. Wherever McGinn plays now under Emery, it's impossible to say he was "too deep" under the previous manager, when he spent the vast majority of every game well inside the opposition half.

[SamTheMouse]

You can see from that graphic that McGinn's position hasn't really changed much. The big difference now is that Cash doesn't bomb on so much (clearly by design), so the distance between them is greater on average.

[Risso]

You can see from that graphic that McGinn's position hasn't really changed much. The big difference now is that Cash doesn't bomb on so much (clearly by design), so the distance between them is greater on average.

One of the big difference is tactics. Against Forest and Leeds away under Gerrard, we spent most of the game pushed right up in their halves. The trouble is, the only tactics seemed to be passing it from side to side waiting for an opportunity to present it itself, which mostly didn't happen. McGinn spent most of the game against Forest really advanced and had that terrible fluffed attempt when he couldn't decide between a shot and a header, but his and the rest of the team's form was just too poor to break down a solid defence. Same with Leeds, especially after they had a man sent off. Against Chelsea at home, in a game we dominated, McGinn had three times as many touches in their half as he did in our half, including four in their box.

Now we have much more movement and possessionpartly as a result of McGinn using the ball much better, with the plan  obviously to try to suck teams in and break their press.

[paul_e]

Ha ha, as if by clockwork, Mr "I'll leave it there" doesn't leave it there! I'll repeat for the hard of thinking. Wherever McGinn plays now under Emery, it's impossible to say he was "too deep" under the previous manager, when he spent the vast majority of every game well inside the opposition half.

I wanted to leave it, I really did, but if you decide to carry on the argument I'm not a fan of letting bad data and shit analysis go unchallenged. Especially when it's being shared by someone willing to use 'hard of thinking' towards people who disagree with him (in fact you insulting the intelligence of other posters happens far more than me returning to a topic I tried to leave, how do you like "mr condescending" as a title?), even when they have a far better knowledge of the subject, because you're a literal manifestation of dunning-kruger.

That said I did give it a day to see if you'd work out why I included Everton instead of West Ham but you were so determined to be right that you just jumped in with both feet and never even considered it. Everton is a perfect example of my point because under Gerrard it was one of a very small number of games where we dominated play and, conversely, under Emery we were pretty passive and played a much deeper defensive line. That meant the absolute positions on the pitch under Emery were deeper and the heatmap shows that.

What it ignores is relative positions, which are far more important when it comes to working out how a player is being used and what their role in the team is. Under Emery the only players consistently further forward than McGinn have been Watkins and Bailey/Buendia, under Gerrard he was generally behind at least 1 of the fullbacks and about level with Kamara as the 4th or 5th most defensive player. This is what matters because it shows what the player does when we're attacking.

Now McGinn is being asked to get in or around the box and be involved in creating opportunities. Before he was clearly (and it upsets me that anyone needs to have this explained when they claim to actually have watched the matches) being asked to stay deeper and cover for Cash if we lost the ball.

The other thing that heatmaps can't show is the fact that we are now holding onto the ball in our own half to try to draw teams out and create space. To do that we have a lot of vertical movement from Ramsey, McGinn and Buendia (assuming that's the 3 who are playing) to come back, make themselves an option, and then break forward again. This can mean that even our more attacking players will appear in deeper positions as a tactical choice but isn't defensive.

In short if you want to talk about tactical choices (such as using a player 'too deep') please try to have more than a Steve Bruce understanding of the concept.