How do we change the 'cultural' make up of football crowds?

[olaftab]

Most of the lads I went with in the late 80's early 90's were Asian,

How many lads have you been with...you tart!

[olaftab]

Employ someone like Benjamin Zephaniah to reach out to the local population. He's a Villa fan who encountered racism at home games as a child. But he still decided to go because of his love for the club. If he can get that message across, including the huge improvements in that area, and its a step in the right direction.

Yes good idea and I will stand in for him when he is busy!

[peter w]

How have you encountered things aftba, and a racism point at villa? Are there more asians going in your personal experience? What more do you think the club should do?

[Lastfootstamper]

I Am Desmond Morris.....

I don't believe that the English of the nineteenth century took to the game for the game's sake, but because the rapid and widespread creation of local clubs provided communities with a "tribal" identity whilst existing within the homogeneous working-class society of the time. Extrapolate this to the modern day, and the same need still exists amongst the descendants of those people, only the requirement to ally oneself to a local club no longer applies, as, through the plethora of available media, it is possible to "support" any club, watch every minute that they play, stay in touch with the goings-on, and know more about individual players than any previous generation, without ever setting foot in the ground where they play.
But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?

[PeterWithesShin]

Most of the lads I went with in the late 80's early 90's were Asian,

How many lads have you been with...you tart!

Arf!

[dave.woodhall]

I Am Desmond Morris.....

I don't believe that the English of the nineteenth century took to the game for the game's sake, but because the rapid and widespread creation of local clubs provided communities with a "tribal" identity whilst existing within the homogeneous working-class society of the time. Extrapolate this to the modern day, and the same need still exists amongst the descendants of those people, only the requirement to ally oneself to a local club no longer applies, as, through the plethora of available media, it is possible to "support" any club, watch every minute that they play, stay in touch with the goings-on, and know more about individual players than any previous generation, without ever setting foot in the ground where they play.
But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?

Because they want to watch a football match, perhaps?

[PeterWithesShin]

Bloody hell Dave, you'll be suggesting women down the Villa next!

[olaftab]

How have you encountered things aftba, and a racism point at villa? Are there more asians going in your personal experience? What more do you think the club should do?

Since you asked...
I have written about this before. Things were very nasty in the 80's. Being spat on and abused at VP were par for course. In the early 90's whilst  there was a general improvement in the atmosphere I still felt a little awkward when buying my season ticket simply because I felt fans around me would not like me sitting with them every week. So most of the match I sat there quiet, yes at home matches, fearing if I shouted at Villa players I would be picked on. This came from a unfortunate experience I had during the world cup 1990. I turned up to watch the semi final v Germany wearing an England shirt. I was immediately confronted  by a group telling me that I had no right to wear that shirt. I left the venue and have never worn the shirt again even though I have been to all world cups since than  , except USA 1994, to watch England games. You could say what does that has to do with Villa....well it's the general feeling of being differentiated and not being allowed to belong.
I can genuinely say that for the last 10 may be 15 years I have felt very confortable at VP and I do see a lot more asians  however the Club needs to do more to remove the embedded negative image Asians have about racial abuse...listen I could write pages about my experiences and what we should do but may be another time.

[peter w]

Bloody hell Dave, you'll be suggesting women down the Villa next!

I certainly don't believe anyone's saying that.

[Lastfootstamper]

Why would they ever come?

Because they want to watch a football match, perhaps?

I've never gone to VP in my life to watch a football match. I could do, and have done, that anywhere. The only reason I go to Villa Park is to watch Aston Villa.

[Dave Cooper please]

But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?

So don't bother trying then?

You seem to be saying that particular ethnic groups only stick to their own and feel no need to integrate and sample anything that is seen as quintessentially British, such as club football?
This doesn't stand up at all as most Asians I know support a football club, okay so many are armchair supporters of Man Utd and Liverpool but plenty of others pledge allegiance to local teams. Is it such a big step from them watching it on telly and chatting about it at work or in the pub to being persuaded to give it a go live?

[Percy McCarthy]

Spot on paulie.

I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.

Would you like back up your claim with fact and not conjecture?

You absolute moron. If I have a different opinion to yours ten i am a nazi?

Obviously you hadn't noticed, but if you read my post again you will see I already apologised.

Are you surprised every year when the St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham fails to incite large scale civil disorder in the way that a friendly against Celtic inevitably would?

[Lastfootstamper]

But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?

So don't bother trying then?

You seem to be saying that particular ethnic groups only stick to their own and feel no need to integrate and sample anything that is seen as quintessentially British, such as club football?
This doesn't stand up at all as most Asians I know support a football club, okay so many are armchair supporters of Man Utd and Liverpool but plenty of others pledge allegiance to local teams. Is it such a big step from them watching it on telly and chatting about it at work or in the pub to being persuaded to give it a go live?

I'm not saying it should have anything to do with integration at all. My argument was that club football supporting is tribal, it provides a collective identity, more often than not imprinted by parents and peers; and that if something in your make-up already provides this, why then feel the need to ally oneself to something as relatively inconsequential as a football club? In this day and age, I don't think that the cultural diversity of Villa Park crowds is the overriding problem, I believe that that's symptomatic of the average age. You didn't go as a kid, you'll almost certainly not go as an adult. If the average of a punter in the ground these days is probably knocking forty, then you need to get middle-aged blokes of ethnic origin, who have never had much interest in the game, or, more importantly, the club, to start coming, to instill a tradition. That was something that needed to happen forty years ago, and it most definitely didn't. If we can get more kids in, given the cultural make-up and general tolerance of our city, the diversity will come of its own, I feel. But in an age when the armchair fan is king, it's difficult to know how to sway an impressionable young head in our direction, especially if your parents frankly don't care and your mates are all Sky. Does local history get taught much in schools? Maybe we need to get Villa onto the curriculum. That, or win the Champion's League.

[PeterWithesShin]

Spot on paulie.

I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.

Would you like back up your claim with fact and not conjecture?

You absolute moron. If I have a different opinion to yours ten i am a nazi?

Obviously you hadn't noticed, but if you read my post again you will see I already apologised.

Are you surprised every year when the St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham fails to incite large scale civil disorder in the way that a friendly against Celtic inevitably would?

Leave it out please Percy.

[Louzie0]

How have you encountered things aftba, and a racism point at villa? Are there more asians going in your personal experience? What more do you think the club should do?

Since you asked...
I have written about this before. Things were very nasty in the 80's. Being spat on and abused at VP were par for course. In the early 90's whilst  there was a general improvement in the atmosphere I still felt a little awkward when buying my season ticket simply because I felt fans around me would not like me sitting with them every week. So most of the match I sat there quiet, yes at home matches, fearing if I shouted at Villa players I would be picked on. This came from a unfortunate experience I had during the world cup 1990. I turned up to watch the semi final v Germany wearing an England shirt. I was immediately confronted  by a group telling me that I had no right to wear that shirt. I left the venue and have never worn the shirt again even though I have been to all world cups since than  , except USA 1994, to watch England games. You could say what does that has to do with Villa....well it's the general feeling of being differentiated and not being allowed to belong.
I can genuinely say that for the last 10 may be 15 years I have felt very confortable at VP and I do see a lot more asians  however the Club needs to do more to remove the embedded negative image Asians have about racial abuse...listen I could write pages about my experiences and what we should do but may be another time.

Gosh Aftab, I really have no idea about what this is like.

I am really stunned, not because I've never heard of racism, but that your description is so graphic and that I can't begin to think whether I would have bothered going anywhere near football or VP again, if I'd been treated like this.

The fact that you have is a bit of a bonus for the club that we all have in common. Loved the description of the debate around MOTD (earlier post) - the same thing was going on in our house.

Very glad that you are still here and posting and obviously going to more matches than I do, and I appreciate that this was definitely not a 'better fan than yow,' post.  I think the Villa could learn a lot from you.

All the best and UTV!