Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: The Laughing Policeman on September 12, 2011, 08:27:40 PM
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When I was first taken to Villa Park in 1955 the crowd was almost certainly 100% white. Over the years I've seen a minuscule change in the make up of the crowd. No doubt the club have figures that show the racial make up, but my impression on matchdays is that the crowd is 99% white.
I can remember the days of the 70's and 80's when the racist minority took over our game. Thankfully society, including the vast majority of football fans have moved on from those days. Yet despite the efforts of the clubs, supporting a football team is still largely the preserve of white people.
So the question is , is there anything that we as fans can do to encourage a more diverse and representative cross section of society to come football matches?
I think that this question also feeds into the threads on here about the size of crowds at Villa Park.
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Cheaper or free tickets to local residents?
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My question is what can we as fans do to change things.
We already know about the efforts clubs have made, but I feel that it's down to us the fans to reach out in some way.
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How did I get into watching the villa and football?
My dad took my to the match.
My best mate who is a Sikh, his dad can't stand football, and only watches football. If someone such as my dad took him when he was young then I think we would know which team like me he would support. To enable someone such as my dad to do this, kids for a quid would have worked. He would have taken a minibus of us!
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If my dad had had to fork out the 1973 equivalent of £40 quid for him to take my brother and me to our first match, I doubt I'd now be a football fan.
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use local school and local football teams ie schoolboys level and take them on group trips to football stadium. Community is the key.
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My question is what can we as fans do to change things.
We already know about the efforts clubs have made, but I feel that it's down to us the fans to reach out in some way.
I am more worried about the missing 10,000 from last season.I don't care what colour people are.
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My question is what can we as fans do to change things.
We already know about the efforts clubs have made, but I feel that it's down to us the fans to reach out in some way.
I am more worried about the missing 10,000 from last season.I don't care what colour people are.
I don't think Villa, or any club care where their 'customers' come from either. The problem Villa have at the moment is that, if the economy is good, and the football is good, the stadium would be mainly full. Unfortunately, both aren't up to much in Villa's case.
You can also see attendance drops at teams like Arsenal, where the fans have finally realised that they are slipping away from the top tier (regardless of Sky TV).
If you need to tap into local families who don't have a history of going to football games (where kids usually wear Manure tops), how you are going to do the hard sell. 'Come and spend £20 - £30 a game, we may even come 10th'.
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If my dad had had to fork out the 1973 equivalent of £40 quid for him to take my brother and me to our first match, I doubt I'd now be a football fan.
Same here
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My question is what can we as fans do to change things.
We already know about the efforts clubs have made, but I feel that it's down to us the fans to reach out in some way.
I am more worried about the missing 10,000 from last season.I don't care what colour people are.
Me either. There's nothing other than the exorbitant ticket prices stopping people from going that I can see.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
Well I guess we should aim for the really young kids (i.e. 5 or 6 year olds.)
Got to look at free tickets for local children (especially in the black and Asian areas.)
Like the whole class gets a free 'school trip' to Villa Park.
By the time they get into football they will probably already be supporting Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
Well I guess we should aim for the really young kids (i.e. 5 or 6 year olds.)
Got to look at free tickets for local children (especially in the black and Asian areas.)
Like the whole class gets a free 'school trip' to Villa Park.
By the time they get into football they will probably already be supporting Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal.
And then we change them. It's easier to get someone who 'supports' a Sky team on TV to support us than it is to get someone with no interest in football.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
Well I guess we should aim for the really young kids (i.e. 5 or 6 year olds.)
Got to look at free tickets for local children (especially in the black and Asian areas.)
Like the whole class gets a free 'school trip' to Villa Park.
By the time they get into football they will probably already be supporting Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal.
And then we change them. It's easier to get someone who 'supports' a Sky team on TV to support us than it is to get someone with no interest in football.
I dunno.
If they support a Sky 4 team, I can't see them changing to Villa who they would just see as an average team/club.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
Well I guess we should aim for the really young kids (i.e. 5 or 6 year olds.)
Got to look at free tickets for local children (especially in the black and Asian areas.)
Like the whole class gets a free 'school trip' to Villa Park.
By the time they get into football they will probably already be supporting Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal.
And then we change them. It's easier to get someone who 'supports' a Sky team on TV to support us than it is to get someone with no interest in football.
I dunno.
If they support a Sky 4 team, I can't see them changing to Villa who they would just see as an average team/club.
They like football. One day someone at work/school/whatever says "Fancy going to a match?" They go out of curiosity or free ticket and they realise the difference between watching TV and being there.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
I agree with you Dave, but it's easier said than done.
When I posed this question it came from a conversation I had with a friend who happens to be British born of Bangladeshi parents. The man is a proud Brummie and a Villa fan to boot. He goes to as many games as he can but he doesn't take his two kids with him. When I asked him about this he told me that he didn't want his kids to get the idea that hating someone simply because of the team they support or where they come from was a good idea. This all stems from the songs and chants that we have about which ever team we are playing. I'll plead guilty to singing s**t on the city, and my old man etc, plus all the other songs and chants we have about other teams. But this conversation gave me pause for thought.
This isn't just about The Villa, it's about opening up access to football fans in Britain regardless of faith, colour, or politics.
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My flatmate is a teacher and he works at a school in Fulham. Most of the kids are Chelsea and arsenal fans, but a few times a year Fulham football club give tickets to the school so kids can go and watch. He says the the effect is massive. Those who haven't been to a football match fall in love with the game compared to the sky package, and if they haven't been to say a Chelsea game (which most can't afford) then they often become Fulham fans.
Fulham may be run by an idiot, but they do a lot of good for the community. Actually in all fairness to Chelsea (I live spitting distance to Stamford bridge) they are good as well. I remember reading in the local paper Chelsea doing an Asian star finder, where Asian kids are encouraged to come along and kick a ball around with the best being offered a place in the academy. It was well received from the sounds of it with a lot of kids from hounslow and southall turning up.
In the local park Chelsea have also built a few five a side pitches and after school there are coaches there teaching the kids and monitoring games. The pitches are also used by local schools in association with Chelsea during the day. Most of the kids are from a non White background and to be quite honest most of them are Chelsea fans.
I think the key is easy access to games and the club reaching out to the community, if you could combine Chelsea and Fulham you might have the perfect system!
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The problem and answer to this question is so deep rooted within community and society on so many levels that it would be impossible to state the issues without being accused of being racist. There are obvious differences in the cultural background of ethnic groups that play a big part, and one discussion point that can be thrown into the mix would be "segregation" in all of it forms on a social level. The only real way to get the answers though would be to simply ask representative community leaders why they dont attend and if there is anything the clubs can do to change this.
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Not sure football can adequately provide what the modern consumer wants. And these new followers would likely be just that: consumers.
And in the modern world, if you want a crowd that is 50% female and (in the context of Brum) 30% Black and Asian - i.e. a representative local sample - you'd have to start with guaranteed success, decent food and the kind of comfy seats that don't induce deep-vein thrombosis in anyone taller than Ronnie Corbett.
Implicit in supporting most football clubs are the likely chances of failure, pain, discomfort and disappointment. Who wants to shell out hundreds to thousands of pounds a year for that unless it's ingrained?
The local community will come whenever the club do one of their discount days; they're neither committed nor dumb enough to do it every week.
As mentioned, we could start by recognising football's limitations as a leisure option and making it much, much cheaper.
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Who is this 'they' people are referring to?
I hate racial targets of any type, we should be reaching out/encouraging all youngsters, regardless of race, creed or colour.
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Tis funny that on the pitch about 30 per cent of the players are black,but in the crowd its far far less,obvoiusly black folk like football,but would rather play it than watch it ?
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I don't think there's anything we as fans can really do? I'm not racist and don't mind anyone turning up to watch the Villa.
Its the club that can make the difference, free stadium tours, a trophey room showing everything we've won to show people how big a club we have been. And kids for a quid/free tickets for local schools. I don't know why the don't do something like u 10's go free with a full paying adult if bought in advance at the category c games (or villa value games - whatever its called). I reckon we could add around 10k to the attendance all together with sensible pricing
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A lot of Asians I know support Brazil.
They do like football,but when I ask them it's cricket every time.
Get some Indian cricketers on the pitch at half time they would come.
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I find it hard to get lapsed fans to go with their kids let alone people from other cultures. Firstly there is the hurdle of the MOTD footy fan who sees a goal every few mins and find live footy boring.Then there is the price, I can take a kid this weekend for a £1 but it's parent will pay £40 odd. Then its the endless swearing which parents hate.the expensive food. The terrible toilets. Drunk people.
Now my kids see beyond all that, mainly because they've had no bloody choice and 'get' the joy of the late winner and the unexpected win, but I wouldn't expose them to any let alone all of the above in any other aspect of life. In fairness to the Asian community their asperations for their kids are probably slightly higher than the back of the Holte End !
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A lot of Asians I know support Brazil.
They do like football,but when I ask them it's cricket every time.
Get some Indian cricketers on the pitch at half time they would come.
Don't know what the last sentence means, but the fact they are 'supporting' Brazil shows they are new to being interested in the sport, and don't understand the culture of football, that is all.
If someone suddenly moved to the US, or just wanted to support an American Football team, more often than not, people would initially pick out the most successful team to follow initially, until you learnt more about the sport.
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Didn't/don't Villa offer Halal food now on matchday? I remember a discussion on here about it ? Whilst not specifically making Muslims wanting to come to Villa at least the club has made an effort?
I think free tickets for schools is definitely the way forward especially as we are unlikely to sell out for many games this season
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Win a cup or two and 'they' will come....
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Why do we need to change the cultural make up of the club?
We have never been overly tarred with the racist/violence brush, if people want to come they come.
What next cheaper tickets for someone because of their ethnicity or sex?
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We could stop singing "My Old Man..." and "Shit Support My Lord..."
How we expect to attract fans from anywhere while we're singing "... you're a ******", is beyond me.
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Who is this 'they' people are referring to?
I hate racial targets of any type, we should be reaching out/encouraging all youngsters, regardless of race, creed or colour.
'They' refers to ethnic minorities i.e. Asian people and black people.
We should target them because a good 20% of Brummies are Asian and a good 6% of Brummies are black.
That's a group of over 200,000 Brummies of which only 1% come to Villa Park.
We should try and tap into that potential fanbase.
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We should focus efforts on keeping the supporters we already have, rather than trying to think of ways of enticing people who aren't that interested.
If football was made more affordable then less people would be driven away.
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Villa have been selling balti pies for years.
*winky*
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Who is this 'they' people are referring to?
I hate racial targets of any type, we should be reaching out/encouraging all youngsters, regardless of race, creed or colour.
'They' refers to ethnic minorities i.e. Asian people and black people.
We should target them because a good 20% of Brummies are Asian and a good 6% of Brummies are black.
That's a group of over 200,000 Brummies of which only 1% come to Villa Park.
We should try and tap into that potential fanbase.
Burger me
We have had a culturally diverse population in Brum for donkeys years.
If people want to come then they will come, you dont need to target them. I'm sure the black/asian/chinese community have heard of Aston Villa.
If you are going to offer cheap tickets then it's cheap tickets for all,
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The issue as well is, as modern Premier League football promotes itself as an entertainment, how every game is an event, it loses it's sheen if the location is around the corner. If you live further afield, at least you have got the journey of getting there. To spend £40 just to walk up the road don't seem enticing.
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Who is this 'they' people are referring to?
I hate racial targets of any type, we should be reaching out/encouraging all youngsters, regardless of race, creed or colour.
'They' refers to ethnic minorities i.e. Asian people and black people.
We should target them because a good 20% of Brummies are Asian and a good 6% of Brummies are black.
That's a group of over 200,000 Brummies of which only 1% come to Villa Park.
We should try and tap into that potential fanbase.
Burger me
We have had a culturally diverse population in Brum for donkeys years.
If people want to come then they will come, you dont need to target them. I'm sure the black/asian/chinese community have heard of Aston Villa.
If you are going to offer cheap tickets then it's cheap tickets for all,
Firstly, it's not "racial" targeting. It's about identifying target markets. It's what every successful manufacturer does to sell it's products.
Secondly, a modern football business is not based on "The field of dreams." People will not just spend their hard-earned without a reason to do so. People need to be persuaded, tempted, prodded, offered something special to get them to try something new. It's only the same as launching a new Cola drink. It might be ten times nicer than Coke and half the price, but to be successful you would need to spend many millions of pounds in promoting it. (without any guarantee of success.)
This is what I'm sure Villa's Marketing Department already know, although I'm not sure there's a huge amount of evidence to suggest that they are doing enough of it.
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As a wise man once said, if you want to start a fight on an aeroplane ask everyone how much they paid.
If you want to get to a particular demographic, you target them. The one obvious market who are woefully under-represented in our crowds are local people. So we aim to get them in. Then we aim at other markets.
That cheap tickets and halal areas promotion for the game against Bolton a few years ago was a great idea. It may be a coincidence, but the number of Asians in the crowd seems to have risen since then.
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As a wise man once said, if you want to start a fight on an aeroplane ask everyone how much they paid.
If you want to get to a particular demographic, you target them. The one obvious market who are woefully under-represented in our crowds are local people. So we aim to get them in. Then we aim at other markets.
That cheap tickets and halal areas promotion for the game against Bolton a few years ago was a great idea. It may be a coincidence, but the number of Asians in the crowd seems to have risen since then.
Another problem is the dearth of Asian or British-Asian footballers at the highest level.
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The Bolton initiative a few years ago was the most forward thinking thing the board have done.
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The Bolton initiative a few years ago was the most forward thinking thing the board have done.
And it still resulted in moans from some if I remember correctly.
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Cultural make-up?
Fair play to Madonna, who has given it a good try:
(http://i27.tinypic.com/wulzc7.jpg)
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The Bolton initiative a few years ago was the most forward thinking thing the board have done.
And it still resulted in moans from some if I remember correctly.
Gigantic racists.
*popcorn*
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
We'll have to get them started then.
Well I guess we should aim for the really young kids (i.e. 5 or 6 year olds.)
Got to look at free tickets for local children (especially in the black and Asian areas.)
Like the whole class gets a free 'school trip' to Villa Park.
By the time they get into football they will probably already be supporting Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal.
And then we change them. It's easier to get someone who 'supports' a Sky team on TV to support us than it is to get someone with no interest in football.
I managed to convert my mate's lad, then aged 9 from a Man Utd 'fan' to the Villa.He's 12 now and he still hasn't forgiven me
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It strikes me there's two separate issues being discussed here.
Firstly there something about connecting the club to it's local community and secondly there's a need to increase attendances/revenue.
From a marketing point of view I don't think it makes a lot of sense to connect the two. Sadly the inner city population of Birmingham (Asian, black, White, yellow, ....) is not an attractive target Market these days. Socially disadvantaged (or poor if you want to get down to brass tacks) communities simply don't fork out £40 pp for their weekend entertainment - and given the only simple variable in shaping the marketing mix is price then the club ends up buying bums on seats - a tactic bound to fail in the medium to long term.
So to increase revenue and long term attendances the club should target the more affluent from outside the city - again why be restricted by race?
Having said all that I can't see why the club doesn't simply give awaya couple of tickets to each household within the local area of the ground as a sort of thank you for putting up with the match day upheaval. That way locals are engaged and their's no bias in on pricing.
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Seeing as the Club already do a lot of good work in schools and do a fairly good job as far as ticket prices go, exactly what more can they do to attract different ethnicities?
I still believe that price has to be the number 1 factor regarding attendances but if anyone has evidence to the contary i'd love to see it
As far as halal goes, good idea but bugger me do you honestly thing that the asian community didn't attend VP because of meat?
"ooohhh I'm quite happy paying 40 quid for a ticket but as there is no halal meat then sod it"
A bit like us selling salt fish patties will make more people want to attend from the afro caribbean community
4 things will get people to attend:
Success
Exciting football
Cheap tickets
Changing our name to Aston Chelsea Arsenal manure Villa
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Based on the thread title, I was thinking that we should target Hoorah Henry's coming out of the latest Andrew Lloyd Webber borefest in the West End. "Come to my Villa for vol au vents!"
Once we've enticed them in, the majestic displays of Ivanhoe and the taste of Balti Pies will hook them for life. I don't think ticket prices would be such an issue with this new demographic either. We can market (and what a wanky word that is when used in conjunction with football) Ivanhoe as a modern day Othello. Afterall, he dies in every performance. Nobody falls like the great Tumbling Bear.
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The grounds of Aston Hall could be used as a runway for lear jets and a big H could be painted in the centre circle
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Another problem is the dearth of Asian or British-Asian footballers at the highest level.
This is I feel the major stumbling block. If we had a local young Asian lad who became a big Villa star it might change. Then give him a couple of years and ManU would tap him up.
Look around you, at any Premier game, and it's white and it's ageing. Not enough kids of any cultural background. Given the spaces in some of the stands, I'd like to see the club at least fill a few blocks with local school parties.
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In my opinion it's got nothing to do with colour,race or religion.For those like myself who started following Villa pre Sky TV, the only way we got to see them was actually getting down to the game, which was also affordable.Nowadays (assumption coming up) those who are under 30 were introduced by their Dad's,uncles,neighbours,mates etc.It's technology in my opinion which has had the greatest effect.Sky is a monster that keeps on growing and on top of that it appears everyone has internet access.Very rarely will Villa be playing and there not be an internet stream.Plenty of pubs show the game and for less than the price of a ticket you can have a day out on the lash and still get to watch the football.All seater stadiums have plenty of plus points but i can't be alone in thinking they've made the atmosphere worse.Sitting there in the freezing cold as opposed to a nice warm pub/comfy armchair and saving money is the option.
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Just seen two different Asians in ManUre shirts :-\
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I started going to VP on a regular basis in 1971. Start of the second season in the old third division. It never occurred to me that I was not white and people all around me were white. To me they were all 1 colour ..well two...Claret & Blue. I was 13 and I went in secret without telling my Dad as he had banned me from going once he found out that the previous December I had gone to the League Cup semi final match. His reason for this ban was for my safety as skinheads were at large and of course very much involved in football violence. He was right as I had to leg it through Aston park after every game or go and hide in my mate's house in Holte road to get away from a severe beating. Now and than I got caught and got a smack or two but that did not deter me. It was all part of the fun. Once in the Holte End a big fat bloke turned around when he saw me and started with "what the fuck are you doing here paki" and followed with the most vitriolic onslaught of profanities you can imagine. I just moved to another part of HE and watched the game. This sort of thing happened quite often but not as vicious as on that occasion. However I was not going to let some wankers spoil what I loved doing. That being watch the Villa. Football crowds reflect Society so there will always be 10 to 20% who just don't like people because they are different. I would be doing a disservice to the other 80%+ by turning away from VP.
Of course 70's and 80's were bad and this was also the time when the Asian and Black community around VP grew. Almost all household eventually were occupied by them. When I talk to friends and family, who live in Aston and Witton, about Aston Villa all they remember is abuse they got from Villa supporters before and after the game. That therefore deterred them from "joining in" to the football community as they feared the worst and felt that they will not be accepted. In fact some of them were annoyed with me for doing what I was doing!
Things have improved a great deal since than. I see now that supporters, and I mean white, show a great deal of respect to the community. Years ago walking through Upper Sutton Street etc was embarrassing as Villa supporters would mouth off something abusive about an Asian household or coloured people walking past will almost always get pushed. Now days I have seen fans non abusive, more caring and sometimes stand aside if two or three locals have to walk past them.
However some elements and some people are not changing. A lot of people who consider themselves to be aracist adapt "pack mentality" and either join in or provide indirect encouragement to instances of racist behaviour. About 3 seasons ago we were playing Boro and losing. Mido was subbed and took an awful long time to walk off the pitch. A fellow ST holder about 2 seats away from me in centre Trinity shouted "Get off the pitch you fuckin terrorist" a slight pause followed by "Muslim bastard". Now this attracted a large amount of laughter from those around him which was disappointing and I personally found it hurtful.
The one thing that would help a great deal is if those fellow supporters who regard themselves as decent non racist people had confronted him rather than providing encouragement by their reaction.
The question I ask, Ladies and Gentlemen, is:
Would you guys do the right thing in a similar situation?
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I have done but as a female i am less likely to get hit! Having said that, when you challenge someone like that, you often find that a lot of people will join in with you. It often just takes the first person to stand up.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
Of those that actually follow football, pretty much all of them will support a team that appears regularly - and most positively - in the corner of their living room.
How local do you want?
The problem the cub has is a bit like trying to get people to forsake social networking sites and go down the pub instead.
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Most blacks and Asians don't support a local club anyway...
Of those that actually follow football, pretty much all of them will support a team that appears regularly - and most positively - in the corner of their living room.
How local do you want?
The problem the cub has is a bit like trying to get people to forsake social networking sites and go down the pub instead.
Villa, Blues and Albion are shunned in favour of United, Liverpool and Arsenal.
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I started going to VP on a regular basis in 1971. Start of the second season in the old third division. It never occurred to me that I was not white and people all around me were white. To me they were all 1 colour ..well two...Claret & Blue. I was 13 and I went in secret without telling my Dad as he had banned me from going once he found out that the previous December I had gone to the League Cup semi final match. His reason for this ban was for my safety as skinheads were at large and of course very much involved in football violence. He was right as I had to leg it through Aston park after every game or go and hide in my mate's house in Holte road to get away from a severe beating. Now and than I got caught and got a smack or two but that did not deter me. It was all part of the fun. Once in the Holte End a big fat bloke turned around when he saw me and started with "what the fuck are you doing here paki" and followed with the most vitriolic onslaught of profanities you can imagine. I just moved to another part of HE and watched the game. This sort of thing happened quite often but not as vicious as on that occasion. However I was not going to let some wankers spoil what I loved doing. That being watch the Villa. Football crowds reflect Society so there will always be 10 to 20% who just don't like people because they are different. I would be doing a disservice to the other 80%+ by turning away from VP.
Of course 70's and 80's were bad and this was also the time when the Asian and Black community around VP grew. Almost all household eventually were occupied by them. When I talk to friends and family, who live in Aston and Witton, about Aston Villa all they remember is abuse they got from Villa supporters before and after the game. That therefore deterred them from "joining in" to the football community as they feared the worst and felt that they will not be accepted. In fact some of them were annoyed with me for doing what I was doing!
Things have improved a great deal since than. I see now that supporters, and I mean white, show a great deal of respect to the community. Years ago walking through Upper Sutton Street etc was embarrassing as Villa supporters would mouth off something abusive about an Asian household or coloured people walking past will almost always get pushed. Now days I have seen fans non abusive, more caring and sometimes stand aside if two or three locals have to walk past them.
However some elements and some people are not changing. A lot of people who consider themselves to be aracist adapt "pack mentality" and either join in or provide indirect encouragement to instances of racist behaviour. About 3 seasons ago we were playing Boro and losing. Mido was subbed and took an awful long time to walk off the pitch. A fellow ST holder about 2 seats away from me in centre Trinity shouted "Get off the pitch you fuckin terrorist" a slight pause followed by "Muslim bastard". Now this attracted a large amount of laughter from those around him which was disappointing and I personally found it hurtful.
The one thing that would help a great deal is if those fellow supporters who regard themselves as decent non racist people had confronted him rather than providing encouragement by their reaction.
The question I ask, Ladies and Gentlemen, is:
Would you guys do the right thing in a similar situation?
Thats a great insight, thanks.
What DW said below, about targeting local people is I think the right approach too. When Villa was at its peak in the 1920s the houses surrounding Villa Park were I suspect occupied exclusively by working class white families. On a Saturday afternoon the men would put on their caps and scarfs and walk to the ground with their sons. We had attendances of 50,000+. It's that group we have lost.
Just as we have become a far more tolerant society than we were in the 60's and 70's, so all of those houses are now occupied by an entirely different ethnic mix. The older generation might be reluctant to come to VP for all the reason given by Aftab235 but the younger generations will have a different call on things.
If we targeted the younger kids in the immediate area, of whatever race and had an area of say the Upper North Stand for them, at a greatly reduced rate, I think we could encourage a lot to come, with or without their parents. Just as Aftab came.
To all those who would protest at a reduced rate for those kids, I would say we already provide cheap family season tickets in that stand. £880 for 2 adults and 2 Under 8s, £1,000 for 2 adults and 2 U16's. We just provide the kids element of that price on a match by match basis.
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Great post Aftab.
And as much as I like to think I would always do the right thing when hearing or seeing racist abuse, I can also remember occasions when I have been too intimidated to say anything. Yes it annoys me and makes me feel bad, but I'm not the confrontational type.
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.....
Villa, Blues and Albion are shunned in favour of United, Liverpool and Arsenal.
Which makes United, Liverpool,Arse, Chelsea their local teams, available in the corner of their living room.
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I can't remember the I heard anybody being racist at VP,that must be good thing.
The pub on the other hand.
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I started going to VP on a regular basis in 1971. Start of the second season in the old third division. It never occurred to me that I was not white and people all around me were white. To me they were all 1 colour ..well two...Claret & Blue. I was 13 and I went in secret without telling my Dad as he had banned me from going once he found out that the previous December I had gone to the League Cup semi final match. His reason for this ban was for my safety as skinheads were at large and of course very much involved in football violence. He was right as I had to leg it through Aston park after every game or go and hide in my mate's house in Holte road to get away from a severe beating. Now and than I got caught and got a smack or two but that did not deter me. It was all part of the fun. Once in the Holte End a big fat bloke turned around when he saw me and started with "what the fuck are you doing here paki" and followed with the most vitriolic onslaught of profanities you can imagine. I just moved to another part of HE and watched the game. This sort of thing happened quite often but not as vicious as on that occasion. However I was not going to let some wankers spoil what I loved doing. That being watch the Villa. Football crowds reflect Society so there will always be 10 to 20% who just don't like people because they are different. I would be doing a disservice to the other 80%+ by turning away from VP.
Of course 70's and 80's were bad and this was also the time when the Asian and Black community around VP grew. Almost all household eventually were occupied by them. When I talk to friends and family, who live in Aston and Witton, about Aston Villa all they remember is abuse they got from Villa supporters before and after the game. That therefore deterred them from "joining in" to the football community as they feared the worst and felt that they will not be accepted. In fact some of them were annoyed with me for doing what I was doing!
Things have improved a great deal since than. I see now that supporters, and I mean white, show a great deal of respect to the community. Years ago walking through Upper Sutton Street etc was embarrassing as Villa supporters would mouth off something abusive about an Asian household or coloured people walking past will almost always get pushed. Now days I have seen fans non abusive, more caring and sometimes stand aside if two or three locals have to walk past them.
However some elements and some people are not changing. A lot of people who consider themselves to be aracist adapt "pack mentality" and either join in or provide indirect encouragement to instances of racist behaviour. About 3 seasons ago we were playing Boro and losing. Mido was subbed and took an awful long time to walk off the pitch. A fellow ST holder about 2 seats away from me in centre Trinity shouted "Get off the pitch you fuckin terrorist" a slight pause followed by "Muslim bastard". Now this attracted a large amount of laughter from those around him which was disappointing and I personally found it hurtful.
The one thing that would help a great deal is if those fellow supporters who regard themselves as decent non racist people had confronted him rather than providing encouragement by their reaction.
The question I ask, Ladies and Gentlemen, is:
Would you guys do the right thing in a similar situation?
Well I for one can only apologies for the big fat twat that subjected you to such crap and the bullying you also received by the yob culture......
For me possibly a good idea is to incorporate into the stadia some of the local culture and flavours (no i'm not talking Curry or Rice'n'Peas) from local neighbourhoods a kind of show, they have been doing this kind of thing in the US for donkey's years, because of such a mixed race society and the whole thing has developed into one big family affair, but do we want to go down that road of much hype and razzle dazzle.
Personally I think in order to make this work well you have to have the same kind of national pro active involvement and history that occurs in Cricket.
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.....
Villa, Blues and Albion are shunned in favour of United, Liverpool and Arsenal.
Which makes United, Liverpool,Arse, Chelsea their local teams, available in the corner of their living room.
Makes me sick :-X
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I started going to VP on a regular basis in 1971. Start of the second season in the old third division. It never occurred to me that I was not white and people all around me were white. To me they were all 1 colour ..well two...Claret & Blue. I was 13 and I went in secret without telling my Dad as he had banned me from going once he found out that the previous December I had gone to the League Cup semi final match. His reason for this ban was for my safety as skinheads were at large and of course very much involved in football violence. He was right as I had to leg it through Aston park after every game or go and hide in my mate's house in Holte road to get away from a severe beating. Now and than I got caught and got a smack or two but that did not deter me. It was all part of the fun. Once in the Holte End a big fat bloke turned around when he saw me and started with "what the fuck are you doing here paki" and followed with the most vitriolic onslaught of profanities you can imagine. I just moved to another part of HE and watched the game. This sort of thing happened quite often but not as vicious as on that occasion. However I was not going to let some wankers spoil what I loved doing. That being watch the Villa. Football crowds reflect Society so there will always be 10 to 20% who just don't like people because they are different. I would be doing a disservice to the other 80%+ by turning away from VP.
Of course 70's and 80's were bad and this was also the time when the Asian and Black community around VP grew. Almost all household eventually were occupied by them. When I talk to friends and family, who live in Aston and Witton, about Aston Villa all they remember is abuse they got from Villa supporters before and after the game. That therefore deterred them from "joining in" to the football community as they feared the worst and felt that they will not be accepted. In fact some of them were annoyed with me for doing what I was doing!
Things have improved a great deal since than. I see now that supporters, and I mean white, show a great deal of respect to the community. Years ago walking through Upper Sutton Street etc was embarrassing as Villa supporters would mouth off something abusive about an Asian household or coloured people walking past will almost always get pushed. Now days I have seen fans non abusive, more caring and sometimes stand aside if two or three locals have to walk past them.
However some elements and some people are not changing. A lot of people who consider themselves to be aracist adapt "pack mentality" and either join in or provide indirect encouragement to instances of racist behaviour. About 3 seasons ago we were playing Boro and losing. Mido was subbed and took an awful long time to walk off the pitch. A fellow ST holder about 2 seats away from me in centre Trinity shouted "Get off the pitch you fuckin terrorist" a slight pause followed by "Muslim bastard". Now this attracted a large amount of laughter from those around him which was disappointing and I personally found it hurtful.
The one thing that would help a great deal is if those fellow supporters who regard themselves as decent non racist people had confronted him rather than providing encouragement by their reaction.
The question I ask, Ladies and Gentlemen, is:
Would you guys do the right thing in a similar situation?
Great post.
Like CN'D Cooper, I'd like to say I'd have spoken up but I fear that I wouldn't have.
As someone said on the last page, it makes little sense to 'target' the poor and expect them to pay £40 every fortnight, but a couple of freebies to local households might do a power of good.
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Returning to the theme, it's actually demented for anybody not already somehow ingrained in the 'culture' of football to take up supporting any team apart from Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Celtic or Rangers.
Pre-Sky, at least it was an affordable madness, but to expect people to fork out £500 a season for the monotonous ennui that caring about a mediocre team involves is bonkers.
It almost certainly is pointless for the club to try too hard in this regard. Why would any self-respecting, intelligent human opt for this?
Love, joy and intrigue exist - and they're free, and they're seldom to be found on Saturdays in B6!
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Unfortunately Sky and the footballing governing bodies have all but destroyed the game for most supporters.To get big crowds you need success on the pitch, to do that you need the kind of money that few owners have, so unless the rules of ownership change attendences at all but a few grounds will diminish. The game changed as i grew up, when i was a nipper you were taught to respect your elders, shouting out obscenities was not tolerated and after game violence was a rarity. At AFL games over here there are nearly as many women as men go, apposing supporters go together and sit together, usually having a side bet on the outcome, a totally different atmosphere to the vulgarity that is found at all premiership grounds.
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Firstly, it's not "racial" targeting. It's about identifying target markets. It's what every successful manufacturer does to sell it's products.
Secondly, a modern football business is not based on "The field of dreams." People will not just spend their hard-earned without a reason to do so. People need to be persuaded, tempted, prodded, offered something special to get them to try something new.
This is what I'm sure Villa's Marketing Department already know, although I'm not sure there's a huge amount of evidence to suggest that they are doing enough of it.
And I love AfTab's essay on following the Villa.
Maybe the answer is somewhere between the two.
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Are they doing much to increase Aboriginal support?
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The most skillful players of the game are aboriginal. There are only about 100.000 full aboriginals left and most of them live in poverty, the culture gap and grog is the problem not the money.
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Arsenal have the highest proportion (7.7%) of non-white attending supporters of any club in English football, according to a 2002 report.
At most clubs, supporters from the ethnic minority communities made up only 1% of the crowd.
Football violence declining say fans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/1844962.stm)
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Arsenal have the highest proportion (7.7%) of non-white attending supporters of any club in English football, according to a 2002 report.
At most clubs, supporters from the ethnic minority communities made up only 1% of the crowd.
Football violence declining say fans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/1844962.stm)
Have a look at the date of that story. I'd say the situation has changed since then.
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most of them live in poverty, the culture gap and grog is the problem not the money.
I'd say that the 'culture gap and the grog' have everything to do with money. And racism and stolen heritage and disenfranchisement and just the starkest example of injustice you'll see anywhere in the world.
Not that it's your fault, so forgive me if any of that sounds antagonistic.
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One obvious point that hasnt been mentioned is the lack of Asian footballers in the Premier League...or even professional footballers at all levels. Again this could partly be a cultural issue, but the theory could easily be countered as you could easily point to the low numbers of black supporters attending football matches.
Going back to my point about "segregation", even at grass roots level you will find most Asian players prefer to play in Asian only teams and leagues. Is this segregation caused by the Asian community or is it at even grass roots levels that football is inherently racist?...I cant imagine it being much fun being on the receiving end of "kick the paki" down the park on a Sunday morning.
I may be wrong saying this but tradition, religion and family also play a different (not greater) role in Asian culture than your average white English family. Example: its tradition in a lot of families for the men to go to the football whilst the mrs stays at home, cooks and looks after the kids; where as this time would generally be spent differently in Asian culture perhaps.
If there were more Asian professional players then I think we'd see more interest from each ethnic community, but until then I doubt we'll see any changes in the near future. As I child growing up, my role models and idols were Aston Villa players so may be having high profile Asian footballers as role models in the future would bring through a change in the cultural make up of football with Asian kids wanting to be like their Asian footballing role models. May be this is one of the reasons why FIFA are targetting new markets in Asia outside of the obvious financial benefits.
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I don't think it's anything to do with a lack of Asian footballers.
Lots of Asians like football.
I just think that they gloryhunt and don't support their local club.
It's not like Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal have any Asian players.
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I don't think it's anything to do with a lack of Asian footballers.
Lots of Asians like football.
I just think that they gloryhunt and don't support their local club.
It's not like Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal have any Asian players.
Excellent piece of offensive generalisation. May as well close this thread now for the debate is settled.
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I don't think it's anything to do with a lack of Asian footballers.
Lots of Asians like football.
I just think that they gloryhunt and don't support their local club.
It's not like Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal have any Asian players.
Excellent piece of offensive generalisation. May as well close this thread now for the debate is settled.
Just my opinion mate.
And I don't really see how it's offensive either...
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I don't think it's anything to do with a lack of Asian footballers.
Lots of Asians like football.
I just think that they gloryhunt and don't support their local club.
It's not like Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal have any Asian players.
Excellent piece of offensive generalisation. May as well close this thread now for the debate is settled.
Just my opinion mate.
And I don't really see how it's offensive either...
I'd say it was a statement of fact.
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You don't see how saying that "Asians...gloryhunt and don't support their local club" is not offensive?
I'm pretty sure that an Asian Villa fan (or do they not exist?) reading that would probably think you were a bit ignorant.
For the record, both Man Utd and Arsenal both have an Asian player in their first team squad.
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Slight tangent, but whenever I see Man United at home on telly, I always look out for the row of big, burly Sikh blokes who sit to the right of the dugouts.
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You don't see how saying that "Asians...gloryhunt and don't support their local club" is not offensive?
I'm pretty sure that an Asian Villa fan (or do they not exist?) reading that would probably think you were a bit ignorant.
For the record, both Man Utd and Arsenal both have an Asian player in their first team squad.
No, because it's true for the most part.
And also, when i say Asian I mean South Asian.
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So, just so we're clear, are you racially stereotyping any countries specifically or just the entire sub-Himalayan section of the continent (South Asia)? South Asia does contain somewhere around 20% of the entire world's population so even if you can't see that to lump all of those people together is offensive you can at least see that it is completely ridiculous and ignorant.
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Thank you Aftab for your post, quite illuminating. It's the question you asked at the end that I was getting at in my OP.
Thankfully we don't get the racist chants any more, It's the so called "casual" racism that you hear at football grounds that I don't like. At the Blackburn game I was in the Upper Holte and Heskey made a cock up of a pass that went straight to one of their players the guy sitting in front of me shouted "Heskey you're a useless black bastard", no doubt Heskey didn't hear it but those of us around the guy did and a lot of them started sniggering. The person sitting next to me leant over tapped the man on the shoulder and told him he was out of order. The man quite sheepishly apologised and said it came out with out thinking.
That is the sort of unthinking abuse that puts some people off going to football matches
After a long time trying I've finally convinced an Asian friend to come to the Bolton match next week. She's been a Villa fan all her life and is in her mid thirties but has never been to a live football match. She was always worried about the sort of unthinking racism that I and a couple of other people have mentioned.
Hopefully she will have an enjoyable time and want to keep on going to Villa Park and if she does then my next plan is to try and get her to bring her two nephews with her to a match.
We can all do our bit by telling the people around us that come out with racist remarks that it isn't acceptable at Villa Park, or anywhere else for that matter.
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So, just so we're clear, are you racially stereotyping any countries specifically or just the entire sub-Himalayan section of the continent (South Asia)? South Asia does contain somewhere around 20% of the entire world's population so even if you can't see that to lump all of those people together is offensive you can at least see that it is completely ridiculous and ignorant.
British South Asians.
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Slight tangent, but whenever I see Man United at home on telly, I always look out for the row of big, burly Sikh blokes who sit to the right of the dugouts.
I know them and they are glory hunters from Smethwick! (just to add more weight to TRS-T's opinion!!)
NB: I don't actually know them just in case any law suits are being prepared and I would say the way they wear their turbans they are mancchav!
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In our village we have 100% of the mixed race population following football on a weekly basis. We only have two. One is our window cleaner and the other a local fireman. They are both much liked and respected members of the community who went with their dads to the football as boys, one to Cambridge United and the other to Histon. Proper football fans of proper football clubs.
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Most of the lads i've gone to VP with since the late 80s have been Asian. Many have been going since the early 70s and some had similar stories to Aftab about their early years. One had an article about it in H&V years ago. The only time I saw any racial abuse was at the scouse semi at Old Trafford. We were in the Stretford near the back, just in front of the boxes. When they scored their first the box behind us was full of dippers and they gave it the big one to us, including calling my mates "paki bastards". It was most satisfying to see the old bill paying him a visit a few minutes later and that he had to go to court over it.
Regarding what TRS-T said, over the years my mates have said the same and how much they get pissed off with the number of glory hunting local Asians.
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Some of Bradford's Asian football fans would much rather support teams such as Manchester United and Liverpool instead of the home club, despite it introducing a number of initiatives to get Asian soccer fans through the turnstiles.
Bradford City FC's joint chairman Mark Lorn told the BBC's Asian Network he was mystified as to why he could not get more Asians into his team's 25,000-seater stadium at Valley Parade.
He said: "There is no violence or racism on our terraces and racism in general has been stamped out in the game as a whole.
"We would not tolerate any form of discrimination and in fact we are positively trying to encourage more Asian supporters.
"We have a dedicated room where people can go to pray, and we think we even invented the chicken tikka pie which is on sale at our ground as an alternative to the traditional meat pie.
"In some seats it's cheaper for a family to watch Bradford City on a Saturday afternoon than taking them for a burger."
In the mid-1990s Bradford enjoyed two seasons in the Premiership and attendances at the ground were increasing every week.
The club is the only professional outfit with an Asian first team captain, yet still it struggles to attract large numbers of Asian fans.
Teenagers Imran and Ali live just 100m from Valley Parade but they are die-hard Manchester United supporters.
Imran, who has never been to a Bradford City match, said: "Why should we support Bradford City when they're rubbish? We will support our city but not the team and all my friends think the same."
Ali has seen a game at Valley Parade but he said he still wouldn't support the home team.
"The only time I would go into the ground to watch the team is if they gave out free tickets, but I would go to Old Trafford any day if I could afford it, their team is much much better".
Former Bradford solicitor Aurungzeb Iqbal, who set up Bradford City's now-defunct Asian supporters club, said more must be done to get Asian youngsters on to the terraces.
The vast majority of people living around Bradford City's Valley Parade ground are of Asian origin but Aurungzeb said few venture through the turnstiles to watch the Bantams in action.
He said he believed it was time to get to the root of the problem.
"For 40 years, I believe the Asian community has been neglected by football clubs, not just here but in other towns and cities too," he said.
"If you go into Bradford into any mosque between the hours of, say, five and seven o'clock, they are full of kids. They're able to attract them.
"We need to get parents and imams to Valley Parade, not just for the football matches but coming in to see the facilities and to slowly win them over.
"Once those parents start bringing their kids in, and once you've got the imams on side, then you will have the numbers coming through."
He added: "People living in Bradford are from one region of Pakistan.
"The club could have scouts going to Mirpur saying, 'We're searching for a star'. Or they could take a small squad to hold friendly games there.
"It would encourage youngsters to come and watch Bradford City."
But Zesh Rehman, now in his second season as Bradford City's first team captain and who also plays for Pakistan, said he believed that the club might now be at a turning point.
He agreed the problem of attracting people from the city's Asian community was a generational one - but said it could turn to the Bantams' advantage.
"The first generation that came over had no love for football. The second generation got involved in the game a little bit," he said.
"Now, obviously, the third generation - like me - can hopefully inspire the next generation.
"I believe they will be the real difference-makers: the kids who are born here to parents who were born here."
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Good article which even mentions Villa
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7912357.stm
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When me and my mate took up our usual seats in the North Stand on Saturday we saw to Asain lad, my first thought was that they were there to see United, more because of the opposition than anything. I couldn't of been further away from the truth they were behind the Villa all the way through, even given the standard of our play.
They were good chaps to speak to I hope to see more of this because they area we are situated should attract more from the Asian community.
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When me and my mate took up our usual seats in the North Stand on Saturday we saw to Asain lad, my first thought was that they were there to see United, more because of the opposition than anything. I couldn't of been further away from the truth they were behind the Villa all the way through, even given the standard of our play.
They were good chaps to speak to I hope to see more of this because they area we are situated should attract more from the Asian community.
This reminds me of my guilty plea against the charge of jumping to conclusions. Queuing in the Villa Chippy before a game against Man Ure a few seasons ago, heard a few people with what were probably west country accents discussing what to order. Immediately I decided they were glory hunting day trippers. Once they'd decided what to order, they went on to discuss Villa, and it soon became very apparent they were Villa fans, not glory hunters.
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Boss of football's anti-racism group is branded a racist after calling Asian fan a 'coconut' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098325/Boss-footballs-anti-racism-group-branded-racist-calling-Asian-fan-coconut.html#ixzz1lpfZoV7D)
Liverpool fan Parmjit Singh
Mr Singh, a postman from the West Midlands
:-X
Also read this on Liverpool's forum
I'm Sikh and have been going to Anfield for 15 years now. Every year you see more and more Asians at the ground. But the number at the Mancs FA game was unbelievable. There seemed to be hundreds!
They're stealing our fans :(
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I know plenty of caucasian people from the West Midlands who support United and Liverpool. It's really no secret that football fans from our area support the bigger north western clubs and to be honest TRS-T its incredibly dissappointing to see you breaking this down into racial groups. It is nothing to do with the colour or background of people, it is simply that Liverpool and United are bigger teams than us.
Last season Villa had more fans arrested for racist comments than many other teams. I believe it was about 104 arrests, I cant remember exactly. Maybe THIS is something that should be worked on rather than accusing racial minorities of being glory hunters.
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Is 'coconut' racist now?
If it is our village fete is going to be very boring this year. Old Mr Sprinkins has been running his Shy for years.
Looks like it'll be 'Pin the Tail on Biscuit' this year.
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It is nothing to do with the colour or background of people.
Wrong.
accusing racial minorities of being glory hunters.
It's actually true though.
We need to try and address this issue rather than try and avoid it.
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Is 'coconut' racist now?
Not sure if it's racist.
Can you be racist to your own race?
It's definitely an insult though.
It means the same as 'oreo' and 'bounty'
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It is nothing to do with the colour or background of people.
Wrong.
You are talking complete and utter bollocks, but carry on. What studies have you to prove this?
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It is nothing to do with the colour or background of people.
Wrong.
You are talking complete and utter bollocks, but carry on. What studies have you to prove this?
Birmingham.
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Last season I got into the NFL. I have always wanted to move to New York and it's still something I plan on doing somtime in the near future. So when I started getting into this new sport and I wanted a team to follow I had a choice. New York Jets and New York Giants. Last season the Jets were doing well and I followed them through the play offs and became a supporter. I have a big admiration for the Jets and follow them almost as much as I do Villa now.
This season, we had a poor season, it all fell apart and our offence was awful. The Giants on the other hand had a fantastic season and won the superbowl. Had I not got into the NFL for another 12 months I would probably be a Giants fan and not a Jets fan. Im not a glory hunter and Im an avid Jets fan, it would be quite easy for me to buy an Eli Manning jersey, forget about the last 12 months and have good party.
My point is, if you want to attract a new legion of supporters to your club you have to be giving them a reason to do so. Supporters who come in from other countries have not grown up with local-club rivalries or a father/grandad who supported a certain team.
They want to get invested in a large part of our culture (football), they have a choice as to which team they support. Thats probably something a lot of us didnt have, whether it was family history, where your first game as a child was or what teams shirt was the first one that was bought for you. Foreign supporters dont have that (usually). People move to the country, everybody around them, newspapers, news channels is all talking about football so they decide to follow a team...
It's the club's (and current supporters) job to make sure we are giving them a reason to choose us. It isn't glory hunting, its the fact they have a choice.
Ask yourself if you hadnt grown up Villa, or grown up with football at all, would you choose to be a Villa fan right now?
Its nothing to do with racial backgrounds imo, we have a predominantly white fanbase, yes, but we havent given people newer to the country or the area a reason to support Villa. When we do, they will come and we will have a fanastic multi-ethnic fanbase.
Being one of the top clubs for racist arrests, along with poor football, a hostile fanbase at home games and no real success for 15 years isnt going to help our cause though.
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Birmingham.
You've spoken to the majority of asians living in Birmingham, have you? And what proportion of plastics are there among the asian community compared to the non-asian communities? Also, where does football rank in terms of favourite sports?
EDIT: Never mind, I can't be arsed debating stuff with you if I'm honest.
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They want to get invested in a large part of our culture, they have a choice, it's the club's (and current supporters) job to make sure we are giving them a reason to choose us. It isn't glory hunting, its the fact they have a choice.
They had a choice and they chose to support a top club.
That is glory hunting.
You say you want to move to New York and so you have chosen to support a New York NFL team.
That is not glory hunting since you are effectively supporting a local team.
You chose the Jets because they were better but I would class that as minor gloryhunting.
It would be like someone from West Bromwich supporting Villa.
It's gloryhunting on a local scale which is much more acceptable.
Gloryhunting on a national scale is unacceptable.
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So are you saying it's unacceptable for anyone to support the Villa if they're not from Birmingham / West Midlands?
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Good friend of mine grew on the Wirral as a Villa fan as we were the best team at the time. So is he a glory hunter or a dedicated fan for sticking with us for 30 years of non-glory?
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If we're talking about supporting our local team, Handsworth Wood is closer to The Hawthorns than it is to Villa Park.
And it's miles away from St Andrews
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Is 'coconut' racist now?
Not sure if it's racist.
Can you be racist to your own race?
It's definitely an insult though.
It means the same as 'oreo' and 'bounty'
So now our 'Pin the Tail on the Biscuit' is no good. We might as well shut our village fete down.
Lord only knows what the Women's Institute will stick on their marmalade jars this year.
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You do see allot of Manc, Arsenal, Chelsea etc... shirts being worn by kids who are around VP
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My question is what can we as fans do to change things.
We already know about the efforts clubs have made, but I feel that it's down to us the fans to reach out in some way.
I am more worried about the missing 10,000 from last season.I don't care what colour people are.
You could get a job on Talksport plucking figures out of mid-air like that to make an argument!
I keep hearing about the missing 10,000 from last season, but let's get it right please.
Our average gate last season was 37,193 and our average so far this season is 34,201. By my maths that's a 3,000 drop – still a concern, but nowhere near 10,000.
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You could get a job on Talksport plucking figures out of mid-air like that to make an argument!
I keep hearing about the missing 10,000 from last season, but let's get it right please.
Our average gate last season was 37,193 and our average so far this season is 34,201. By my maths that's a 3,000 drop – still a concern, but nowhere near 10,000.
I think the more telling figure is our drop from MON's last season. Without checking, I think average attendance during 09/10 was circa 39,000. So we're down 5,000 in two seasons - that's a concern!
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I'm ever so glad it's more acceptable for me to support Villa.
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So are you saying it's unacceptable for anyone to support the Villa if they're not from Birmingham / West Midlands?
Yes, unless they are a) in a different country or b) through a parent/guardian (but only if the parent/guardian supported their local team).
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Good friend of mine grew on the Wirral as a Villa fan as we were the best team at the time. So is he a glory hunter or a dedicated fan for sticking with us for 30 years of non-glory?
Glory hunter. But if your other choices are Tranmere or Marine, who can blame him.
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How ridiculous, what about the many counties/areas of the UK like Pembrokeshire, Cornwall etc that have no professional teams, have to follow a different sport do they?
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Good friend of mine grew on the Wirral as a Villa fan as we were the best team at the time. So is he a glory hunter or a dedicated fan for sticking with us for 30 years of non-glory?
Gloryhunter yes.
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If we're talking about supporting our local team, Handsworth Wood is closer to The Hawthorns than it is to Villa Park.
And it's miles away from St Andrews
Yeah my dad is probably a local glory hunter.
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If we're talking about supporting our local team, Handsworth Wood is closer to The Hawthorns than it is to Villa Park.
And it's miles away from St Andrews
Yeah my dad is probably a local glory hunter.
My next door neighbour is a cross dresser.
He's our local Gloria Gaynor.
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Who does Gloria Hunniford support?
I hope it's Man United
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Was surprised by the amount of black, asian and mixed race supporters in the crowd away to L'Arse. Think in the area I was sitting they made up ~5-10%, very encouraging.
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Good friend of mine grew on the Wirral as a Villa fan as we were the best team at the time. So is he a glory hunter or a dedicated fan for sticking with us for 30 years of non-glory?
Gloryhunter yes.
Well, he's failed miserably if that was his aim!
Point being that we should welcome all Villa fans, for whatever reason they support us. Their support is no less valid than yours or mine.
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That is encouraging itbr. I don't care about the ethnic make-up of our support per se, but we do need to attract a good cross-section to maintain a high level of support in a city like ours. If this, in turn, makes Astonian asians feel more at home in our ground, so much the better.
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Im in a similar boat being from Luton,supporting the club because Gary Shaw was always in shoot magazine every week,then being teased week in week out during the mid 80s when we were terrible and Luton had their best ever team.
I've earned my stripes!
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Is 'coconut' racist now?
Not sure if it's racist.
Can you be racist to your own race?
It's definitely an insult though.
It means the same as 'oreo' and 'bounty'
It occurred to me that 1. Chinese Oreos are differently shaped to American Oreos, and 2. Bounty comes in two flavours - "Black" or "Coloured". What was the point again?
Anyway when I first started going to see Villa play I was poor and working class. Now I'm well-off and middle class. Still white though, but I'm doing my bit...
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Was surprised by the amount of black, asian and mixed race supporters in the crowd away to L'Arse. Think in the area I was sitting they made up ~5-10%, very encouraging.
Good to hear.
Arsenal seem to have loads of black fans.
Must be to do with Henry, Vieira, Wiltord etc?
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I'm still poor, working-class and white, but I've got lots of mixed-race children who are Villa fans, so I'd like to know who's doing more than me to change things.
I think I deserve an award, presented by Luis Suarez.
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Let me wade in here.
Im Asian and being going down the Villa since 1991 (supporting since 1987). Back in that "glorious" year we were relegated. I started supporting them because my class was made up of Villans, knuckledraggers and Stripeys. There were very few who supported Liverpool and if they did they kept quiet. The Villans seem to be more civilised and I looked up the history of the club. What a fantastic institution! Silverware, League founders, Cup winners, European Champions, Pioneers. The more I read the more I could identify with them and what they stood for. Equally Im proud of the city I was born in - Birmingham. Supporting your local team and all that. Im not getting all Carl Chinn on you but I have an affinity for history and local rivalry.
The reason I support Villa is because they are my local team that I can identify most with. If I didnt support them I would be a Blues fan. There wasnt anybody to pass the torch to me, I took it upon myself to announce proudly that I am now Aston Villa FC. Cue cheers and boos in equal measure one PE lesson. Supporting another english team from another city isnt something I would be comfortable with (although I did semi support Barnsley in a drunken binge one play off under Beezlebub but thats another story). Most of my cousins and asian friends RARELY support their local team. They just go with whoever happens to be the most successful at the time. If we were massively successful as ManUre of the last 15 years we would have shedloads of asians wearing tops all over the city. Frankly the "local" thing just isnt attractive enough to encourage these fans. Many fans sitting next to me in the Trinity have had their support passed down to them which is what I am doing to my children, nephews and nieces. You can bet your bottom pound, the minute an Asian player steps onto the field and creates a noise with his skills the asian supporters will follow him in droves no matter what team he plays for.
I didnt encounter a hint of trouble since Ive being going until about 4 years ago when after taking my long awaited pair of sons down the match we were racially abused. One time! Was it enough to put us off - not on your nelly! The miscreant was the kind that has sycophantic mates who are too stupid or too scared to disagree, and he smelled of urine so lets hope he hasnt polluted the gene pool.
This "coconut" thing. Being of Indian origin with all its bells, whistles, religons and culture and living in England brings its clashes with the 2 sets of east and west mentalities. You get one sort that have completely lost all trace of indian heritage (probably some of the latest generation) to the ones that are fighting to keep hold of it (Mostly my parents generation) and then there is my generation thats caught in the middle trying to balance the two. I beleive with a dose of common sense and comprimise its possible to have the two in equal measure. This person, the Football Against Racism loudspeaker has bascially undermined his own cause by calling another asian a coconut. He means that he has gone 'too far the other way'mainly towards shedding his "asian-ness" by supporting Liverpool? Is he being racist? As I interpret it, he is basically saying the Scouse fan is "too white". Dear me ! Its like having a Turkey waving a placard saying Stop the mass slaughter! then voting for Christmas on Twitter.
At every party now there will always be the unholy triumvirate - the Manure supporter, the Liverpool and then the other that flits between, Chelski or Man Citeh. This being a party in Birmingham or London with locals I might add. Cue "banter" about how crap Villa are and that Manure are now bigger than Liverpool blah. How many times have you been to old trafford / Anfield / Sheds? Silence. ;)
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Quality post mate.
Was your school mainly a white school though?
If it was, this could have increased your chances of supporting a local team.
If you go to a mostly Asian or black school in Birmingham it is probably unusual to support a local team.
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Lol dont give up do u Tilton Road Stand?
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Lol dont give up do u Tilton Road Stand?
I didn't join in this thread because of he trollness...
Has been an interesting discussion.
What about the Zulus I wonder?
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Quality post mate.
Was your school mainly a white school though?
If it was, this could have increased your chances of supporting a local team.
If you go to a mostly Asian or black school in Birmingham it is probably unusual to support a local team.
Utterly fantastic. Fair play, sometimes you are actually pretty good at this trolling business.
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If we were massively successful as ManUre of the last 15 years we would have shedloads of asians wearing tops all over the city.
Definitely.
But then again 30 years we were Champions of England and then Champions of Europe so I don't understand why it didn't happen then.
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Football grounds in the early 80's were not the most welcoming of places to young Asians.
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I went with my b-lose mate to their tatty shop sometime in those all-conquering seasons. In those days there was a school just over the road and seemingly every pupil was of Asian descent. Just for a laugh I asked a couple of the kids who they supported, and loads of them came running up to the fence shouting 'Villa, Villa'. My mate was gutted given the proximity of their shithole.
He soon cheered up though when we robbed a load of tickets that were left on the counter in the shop.
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Football grounds in the early 80's were not the most welcoming of places to young Asians.
For sure you needed thick skin for more than one reason.
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Is 'coconut' racist now?
Not sure if it's racist.
Can you be racist to your own race?
It's definitely an insult though.
It means the same as 'oreo' and 'bounty'
So now our 'Pin the Tail on the Biscuit' is no good. We might as well shut our village fete down.
Lord only knows what the Women's Institute will stick on their marmalade jars this year.
Golly, that is a most pertinent point, Sir Algie.
Might one respectfully suggest that the WI put a cockbiscuit minus the biscuit on their jars, and that your village serfs play pin the pork sword on the paedo at their annual bash, thus avoiding both the coconut and the biscuit.
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Growing up in Smethwick in the 60s and 70s my group of friends included a couple of black lads and three or four from asian/sikh backgrounds. A couple of the Asian lads supported Albion, went to the games at least sometimes, and at least one of them is still a season ticket holder. The rest were all Man Yoo or Liverpool whom they never went to see live until they had grown up, and then most usually at VP, the Hawthorns etc. Ditto when I worked with black and Asian lads in London, I can't think of any that supported local teams, even if born and raised there. It was almost always Liverpool. There's a certain degree of that with people from Irish immigrant families too. Seems fairly obvious that in the absence of any long standing cultural ties to an area, or any family ties to a club, or any tradition of going to games, a lot of people from other cultures just pick the path of least resistance, and attach themselves to the most successful team or the most entertaining team. And you can't really blame them I suppose.
As it goes, I'm not sure any form of social or cultural engineering should be any of our business, except it might boost the club's income a bit.
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Why Bradford City fan in a hijab holds key to the game’s future
Watching television coverage of Bradford City beating Aston Villa on Tuesday night, I was struck by the most arresting sight.
As the visitors’ Barry Bannan went to take a corner, he was assailed by an overexcited Bradford fan, attempting verbally to put him off his stride.
Perhaps a choice observation was being made about his height, maybe about his hair’s copper hue, whatever it was probably as well that the pitchside microphones did not pick it up.
Not that there was anything unusual in such behaviour: most fans reckon that the price of entry to a football game these days includes the right loudly to voice disparaging comment about opposition players.
What was striking, though, was the identity of the fan yelling at Bannan: she was an Asian woman wearing a hijab. What is more, she was with a couple of female Asian friends, in a section of the Valley Parade crowd dotted with Asian faces.
If it is possible that someone yelling at a footballer represents evidence of social progress, then this was the most encouraging image of the season.
After all the miserable racist vituperation that has swilled around football recently, here was a Muslim woman, comfortable in the middle of an ethnically mixed crowd, engaging with the game’s traditional possibilities. And in doing so, clearly having the time of her life. How pleasant was that to see?
The good news is that shouty Bradford woman is not alone. For years it was to the game’s shame that Asian people felt excluded from immersing themselves in its glories.
Such was the sense of isolation, British Asian men largely preferred to follow cricket, while young Asian females would never have felt comfortable at a match.
Thanks to some imaginative initiatives, parts of the game are increasingly reaching out to the Asian audience. Which, if nothing else, makes commercial sense: this is a substantial inner-city market residing in the shadow of league grounds. To ignore it is to miss out on the customers living on the doorstep.
And the Asians are coming. At Manchester United home games, television audiences have for several years now seen a family of Sikhs doughnutting the dugout, passing each other sweets as Sir Alex Ferguson stalks the technical area.
At Wolverhampton Wanderers, the growth in interest among the city’s Asians has been growing rapidly since 2007, when a group of six fans formed Punjabi Wolves.
“We just thought: the game belongs to us as much as anybody,” Raj Bains, the organisation’s founder, explains. “I started going to matches in 1979. In the early days it was a bit scary, even with the home fans. But there are no issues now.”
Within five years, the organisation has grown to the point it now has more than 800 members. At home matches, they sit in different parts of Molineux. But at away matches the Punjabi Wolves are a noticeable, unified presence, travelling together, sitting together, banging their Indian drums as they approach grounds.
“The drums give us our identity,” says Bains. “But we consider ourselves very much part of the Wolves family.”
Bains has been approached by officials from West Bromwich, Aston Villa and Birmingham City all seeking his advice on starting similar groups.
But he is too busy building Punjabi Wolves to franchise the idea yet. Established as a charity, from the off the group has collected money for good causes.
Last summer, Bains led a party out to India to help in the construction of a housing project they had helped to finance.
“Eight Asian and two English lads went,” he says. “Which was a reflection of our membership. We’re open to anyone: Asian, black, white. The only entry requirement is you love Wolves.” All ages, too. One of Punjabi Wolves’ regular drummers is 13. Which in itself is noteworthy.
Indeed what was perhaps more telling about the Valley Parade ranter was not so much her ethnicity as her age. She was clearly under 20. With her satchel slung round her neck, she looked like she was a student.
And the young really are an endangered species in the game’s upper reaches. In the Premier League the crowds are ageing faster than Paul Lambert as he watched his defenders flail and fail on Tuesday.
Scan the stands during any top flight match and the hairlines are receding, the faces lined, the average age way over 45. The clubs are doing little to address that ageing demographic.
At the Emirates on Sunday, Arsenal are charging visiting Manchester City fans £62 a head, perhaps on the assumption that they all come from Abu Dhabi. There will not be many students in that crowd. Unless their dad has paid.
Down the divisions it is not like that. At Milton Keynes, for instance, the Dons are watched by a crowd markedly younger than that at any Premier League venue. The main stand is packed with families, while gaggles of youths gather in the Stadium MK’s Cow Shed stand, chanting encouragement to their team.
Which is perhaps no surprise: half-season tickets, taking in the rest of the Dons’ League One home campaign, are available to under-18s for £20. That is not per game, that is for all 10 remaining matches, the kind of price affordable for even those whose paper round wages have stubbornly refused to rise in line with inflation.
It is the same at Bradford. Even as the club sank through the divisions, a conscientious effort to maintain crowd levels has seen prices held down.
Assuming she flashed her student card, the Asian woman ranter would have paid only £14 on Tuesday night to watch a riveting cup semi final. After what she experienced there is every chance she will be coming back.
It may be the product of necessity – in Bradford’s case maybe even of desperation – but what such a policy has done is mark out a new and different course for football.
While the Premier League plays out to an ever more affluent, ever ageing, white audience that will eventually, inevitably, die off, clubs like Bradford have found the path to renewal.
In fact, it could be said that what I was looking at when I saw that young Bantams fan in the hijab was this: football’s future.
Article in The Telegraph today (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/9792081/Why-Bradford-City-fan-in-a-hijab-holds-key-to-the-games-future.html)
Here is the picture of the Bradford City fan
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02447/bb_2447006b.jpg)
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I noticed that girl during the match, several times she was there giving the corner taker all sorts.
Good on her.
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It was fantastic to see.Bannan looks absolutely terrified
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Maybe we should get George Galloway to stand for Ladywood at the next election.
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They want to get invested in a large part of our culture, they have a choice, it's the club's (and current supporters) job to make sure we are giving them a reason to choose us. It isn't glory hunting, its the fact they have a choice.
They had a choice and they chose to support a top club.
That is glory hunting.
You say you want to move to New York and so you have chosen to support a New York NFL team.
That is not glory hunting since you are effectively supporting a local team.
You chose the Jets because they were better but I would class that as minor gloryhunting.
It would be like someone from West Bromwich supporting Villa.
It's gloryhunting on a local scale which is much more acceptable.
Gloryhunting on a national scale is unacceptable.
By that argument, if winning the league cup this season attracted more interest in the club from minorities inside/outside of brum, then no doubts they'll be some fans all too quick to throw that glory hunter term at the new support generated. And some people wonder why new support aint coming through the turnstiles ::)
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It was fantastic to see.Bannan looks absolutely terrified
So much so that his hair on the back of his head stood on end ;D.
Lik Remy said, when the first Asian footballer bursts onto the scene in the Prem then the Asian community will follow that player. It would be fantastic if it was to happen at Villa with our multicultural city backing it up. I look forward to the day this happens and also look forward to the day that Asian players get their big break. For the life of me i cannot see why this has not happened in the last 20 years. Surely there must be a large Asian percentage in academies of football all over the country, including the Villa, surely ?
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Great idea but no drums please.
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Great idea but no drums please.
No drums ? You have me a tadge confused there bert.
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It was fantastic to see.Bannan looks absolutely terrified
So much so that his hair on the back of his head stood on end ;D.
Lik Remy said, when the first Asian footballer bursts onto the scene in the Prem then the Asian community will follow that player. It would be fantastic if it was to happen at Villa with our multicultural city backing it up. I look forward to the day this happens and also look forward to the day that Asian players get their big break. For the life of me i cannot see why this has not happened in the last 20 years. Surely there must be a large Asian percentage in academies of football all over the country, including the Villa, surely ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/sep/24/british-asians-premier-league-football (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/sep/24/british-asians-premier-league-football)
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We sit in the Upper Trinity and there are many attendees from the South Asian Continent sitting around there as well as the odd contingent from the People's Republic of China ;-)
When we have arrived very late you will often find Asian lads waiting at the Trinity Road gates for free entry after about 30 minutes of the game - there was a steward with a load of tickets handing them out at the Manure match
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Great idea but no drums please.
No drums ? You have me a tadge confused there bert.
Within five years, the organisation has grown to the point it now has more than 800 members. At home matches, they sit in different parts of Molineux. But at away matches the Punjabi Wolves are a noticeable, unified presence, travelling together, sitting together, banging their Indian drums as they approach grounds.
“The drums give us our identity,” says Bains. “But we consider ourselves very much part of the Wolves family.”
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There must be more underlying reasons, as it's not just football where this issue exists. As other posters have pointed out, cricket is generally regarded as being popular amongst certain ethnic groups in Birmingham, yet as a follower of Warwickshire I would say that the cultural make up of crowds at Edgbaston is pretty much the same as you see at most football grounds (ie not very mixed at all).
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It was fantastic to see.Bannan looks absolutely terrified
So much so that his hair on the back of his head stood on end ;D.
Lik Remy said, when the first Asian footballer bursts onto the scene in the Prem then the Asian community will follow that player. It would be fantastic if it was to happen at Villa with our multicultural city backing it up. I look forward to the day this happens and also look forward to the day that Asian players get their big break. For the life of me i cannot see why this has not happened in the last 20 years. Surely there must be a large Asian percentage in academies of football all over the country, including the Villa, surely ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/sep/24/british-asians-premier-league-football (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/sep/24/british-asians-premier-league-football)
A bit of an eye opener that article. Lets hope things get better for the Asian community inside the football acadamies.
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There must be more underlying reasons, as it's not just football where this issue exists. As other posters have pointed out, cricket is generally regarded as being popular amongst certain ethnic groups in Birmingham, yet as a follower of Warwickshire I would say that the cultural make up of crowds at Edgbaston is pretty much the same as you see at most football grounds (ie not very mixed at all).
It's different when India and Pakistan are in town.
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There must be more underlying reasons, as it's not just football where this issue exists. As other posters have pointed out, cricket is generally regarded as being popular amongst certain ethnic groups in Birmingham, yet as a follower of Warwickshire I would say that the cultural make up of crowds at Edgbaston is pretty much the same as you see at most football grounds (ie not very mixed at all).
It's different when India and Pakistan are in town.
Of course it is, but the fact that local people aren't interested in their local teams isn't exclusive to football.
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Is it just football though. As was said about the cricket and Warwickshire's fan base being mostly white.
How about other events and sports.
Athletics at the NIA? Perry Barr?
Speedway?
Greyhound racing?
Rugby?
Tennis?
BMX Championships at the NIA.
Or how about concerts at the Symphony Hall or the NIA. Comedy gigs, anything really.
I've been to all of these recently and I wouldn't say football is any worse at integrating different cultures than these events.
I think a lot of communities in Birmingham have little interest or involvement is things happening away from their immediate community, this is more a choice of the people in that community, not through any social barriers put up to stop them being involved.
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In July 2001 Bradford was a city on the edge.
A few weeks earlier, its football club had been relegated from the Premier League, the start of a rapid descent down the divisions and to the brink of extinction.
But the demise of the debt-ridden team was by no means the city's only problem.
Racial tensions in this deprived corner of West Yorkshire were intensifying.
Stoked by confrontations between the Anti-Nazi League and various far-right groups, things finally boiled over into three days of rioting between the large Asian population and sections of the white working-class majority.
Hundreds were injured, millions of pounds worth of damage was caused, and 200 jail sentences were handed down. Bradford, it appeared, was one of the most divided communities in Britain.
But 12 years on, tensions between segregated neighbourhoods have eased, and a footballing fairytale is helping to heal old wounds.
The tough, terraced streets which surround Valley Parade in the largely Muslim district of Manningham were one of the areas worst affected by the riots.
Now, many of the youngsters who play for Manningham All-Stars, a predominantly Asian grassroots football club, are regulars at Bradford City matches. Several are lucky enough to be going to the final at Wembley.
"It's brought the city together," says Khalil Hussein, a social inclusion worker who runs the club.
"It doesn't matter if you're black, white, Asian, whatever. You either support Bradford City or you don't, and most of us do. More still needs to be done, but football has the power to unite, and that's what's happened here.
"At weekends you'll see 100 kids playing football here, from every community. It's one of the most diverse sets of lads anywhere in Yorkshire."
There's a limit to what Bradford's heroics on the pitch can achieve of course. Parts of the post-industrial city centre are desperately in need of development. A large area has been cleared for a long-awaited new shopping complex, but it has yet to arrive, and unemployment is a major problem in an area hit harder than most by the tough economic times.
But there is a genuine sense that the football club's underdog spirit has helped unite those who live here.
"The whole city's been lifted by it," says Bradford City's co-chairman Mark Lawn.
"Whites, Asians, everyone. And everyone is clamouring for a ticket. It's a miracle. It proves that the underdog can win."
Terry Yorath played for and managed Bradford and still lives a few miles away in Leeds.
"When I was there you'd hardly get any Asians watching a game," he says.
"But I remember one Sunday morning when I was manager. I went into the ground to do some office work. I heard a noise, looked out of my office window, and there were 100 Asians kids having a game on the pitch. They'd jumped over a wall to get in. It's a myth they don't like the game.
"Bradford is a unique place. Local politicians have been promising the city a bright new future, new buildings, and yet nothing had happened. It's taken the football team to do that. The city deserved this."
Three years ago British Pakistani Zesh Rehman captained Bradford and gave a generation of local Muslim youngsters the sporting role model they needed.
But today, Bradford residents of every race are united in support of the unlikely underdogs that galvanised a city and charmed the sport at large.
The only colour on their minds? Claret and amber.
Capital One Cup final: Bradford unite for Wembley date (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21557294)
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Cant we just leave the social engineering to politicians and the BBC. Nothing stopping anyone from paying at the door just like the rest of us, if they dont want to thats their choice, and remember the saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink".
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Make tenner a ticket, let us stand behind the goals (with modified safe standing) and serve beer all through the game. Works in Germany and they get full houses, job done. Next!
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Make it a tender a ticket, let us stand behind the goals (with modified safe standing) and serve beer all through the game. Works in Germany and they get full houses, job done. Next!
How much is a tender?
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Don't you know? It's ten pounds (winky thing)
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Cant we just leave the social engineering to politicians and the BBC. Nothing stopping anyone from paying at the door just like the rest of us, if they dont want to thats their choice, and remember the saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink".
Well I'm guessing the racism on the terraces stopped certain minorities from going to the football. The image of the skin-headed, white racist hooligan is only just starting to wear off for football, and for some people it will never vanish entirely.
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Cant we just leave the social engineering to politicians and the BBC. Nothing stopping anyone from paying at the door just like the rest of us, if they dont want to thats their choice, and remember the saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink".
Yes agreed however if you start whipping the horse when it's drinking water than the horse is not going drink! We don't need to do anything special we just have to ensure that racial abuse is totally eliminated that's all.
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Cant we just leave the social engineering to politicians and the BBC. Nothing stopping anyone from paying at the door just like the rest of us, if they dont want to thats their choice, and remember the saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink".
Well I'm guessing the racism on the terraces stopped certain minorities from going to the football. The image of the skin-headed, white racist hooligan is only just starting to wear off for football, and for some people it will never vanish entirely.
Exactly as Stu said.
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I am proud that there is no racism at Villa, I have watched Scottish Football and been shocked at some of the racist comments leveled at black players north of the border.
I agree with the majority of comments about getting the kids into Villa Park at an early age, one thing I will say though is that the 'Glory Support' of Sky TV's big 4, Liverpool and any London Club is only because the kids haven't ever gone to a game.
When I came to the Villa, I wasn't a football fan but the feeling of being in the Holte and being part of the roaring crowd made me a Villan for life after about 2 minutes of walking onto the terraces.
I learned to love football because of the Holte, not because I loved football but because I belonged and still belong. The kids wearing the tops on our Birmingham streets of Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal and soon I'm sure to start seeing Man City don't actually belong to anything yet, just marketing that's all.
I feel sorry for them, one nation controlled by the media.
Get the kids into our stadium on a match day when we are all in fine voice and those plastic tops will be consigned to the bottom drawer in the majority of cases. They can then embark on the lifelong love and torture that we are all both proudly part of and sometimes unfortunately stuck with.
I don't love football, I love the Villa. So will they when they learn to belong.
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Why Asian fans shun clubs like Oldham and Burnley (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21893570)
It is a freezing cold Sunday morning but that has not deterred the boys from Red Star Bengal from attending a football coaching session in Oldham.
The club was set up by members of the town's large Bangladeshi community in 1988 with the youngsters aged from seven to 14 and their dads passionate for "the beautiful game".
But that passion does not extend to their local club, Oldham Athletic.
Like other North West clubs outside the Premier League only about 1% of the home support comes from the town's Asian community, which makes up 20% of the local population.
It is a similar story in places like Burnley or Preston.
Interest in the game appears to be strong, dispelling myths that Asians neither like football nor play the game.
At Red Star Bengal's, Riazuddin, 12 said: "It's fun and you play with your friends. I'm better at football than cricket."
His friend, 14-year-old Nazman, added: "I've been coming for a couple of years now. I like playing with the older boys, it makes me feel good and I enjoy the football."
Shelim Islam, who brings his son with him to the session every week, said: "I'm very passionate about football, whether I'm playing or watching.
"It makes you very tense, there's just a buzz around it."
But according to Idrees Ali, a coach with the Red Star Bengal, there are several reasons why Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis do not go to matches at local clubs like Oldham.
"When you go back to the old days, there was a lot of issues around racism and I think some people still think an element of it still exists," he said.
"It is also expensive and a lot of our people work in restaurants and many are taxi drivers, so they have work commitments too."
A straw poll at Oldham's recent League One game against Hartlepool suggested there were no Asian fans in the 3,000 gate.
Club secretary Neil Joy believes this has less to do with racism than the presence of Premier League football in Manchester.
He said: "There are reasons why Asians don't come and one of them is that they are not used to going to football, although, a lot do support the Premier League clubs.
"Our fan base needs to reflect the community in which we operate, that is our ultimate objective."
Burnley's chief executive Lee Hoos believes in these cash-strapped times smaller clubs could have their revenue boosted by this untapped fan base.
"It is an important consideration, we need to engage with the community and we have started activities but we are in the early stages," he said.
"One of the suggestions that came to me was to take our staff to the mosque for diversity training.
"It's not about trying to get the community to come here, it's about us going out into the community."
Abdul Hamid, a member of Red Star Bengal, believes Oldham are doing a lot of good work with the community, but he has thrown out a challenge to the bosses who run the game.
"One day, when we have an Asian player at Latics, a lot of Asian people will flock to the club to support him."
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Do you just search the Internet looking for shite like this,waiting for someone to bite?
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Do you just search the Internet looking for shite like this,waiting for someone to bite?
This. Cheers Bert.
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I've seen quite a lot of ethnic minorities at Villa Park this season tbh. One game I was sat next to an Oriental looking man with his girlfriend and in front of me were two Asians and then four or five black lads all together.
I think though, that football culture is more a white thing.
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
So we should just ignore every other potential new supporter?
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
I agree, a successful team will attract supporters representative of all the minorities you want
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
Well, it kind of was, wasn't it?
The obvious inference from the subject being discussed is that we don't attract enough attendees from racial minorities (especially when you consider the community around Villa Park).
Even before you get into the pros and cons of targetting specific communities, there's the fact that we need all the help we can get in filling our ground, which is what Percy said.
Honestly, I can say that the increase in the numbers of Asian fans attending our matches is one of the things that makes me happiest about our support these days. I have friends who support Newcastle and Sunderland, and they get hardly any Asian fans at their games.
I go to our matches and see - nowhere near enough, but it's a start - lots of Asian fans there.
Aston Villa is about Brummies, it is a Brummie institution, and the people of Birmingham - given that we are by far the second most racially diverse city in this country after London, which is itself the most racially diverse city in Europe, and possibly the world - are of a variety of ethnic and racial backgrounds.
I want the club to reflect the city as much as it can, and I want Brummies of Indian, Pakistani, Jamaican, West Indian, Eastern European, whatever you like, descent to think that this is their club as well.
Nobody knows what the men who made this club great would want, but I'd take a guess that visionaries of the likes of McGregor, were they around today, would want the same thing too.
I know you could probably say that sounds woolly and Guardian reader-ish, and you'd probably have a point, but I genuinely believe it, so hey ho.
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Or, looked at in the most sado-masochistic of ways, they're amongst the things that make this city great, they can frigging well take some of the misery that comes in following the Villa, too.
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Spot on paulie.
I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.
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I've seen more Asians at Villa park this season than any I can recall which is encouraging. I also had a lady from Malaysia at the Swansea game sat next to me who had flown all the way just to see villa play.
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I've seen more Asians at Villa park this season than any I can recall which is encouraging. I also had a lady from Malaysia at the Swansea game sat next to me who had flown all the way just to see villa play.
Lucky her, easily the best home game all season!
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Spot on paulie.
I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.
Would you like back up your claim with fact and not conjecture?
You absolute moron. If I have a different opinion to yours ten i am a nazi?
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
So we should just ignore every other potential new supporter?
Where have I said that? My experience of football fans are not chosen they chose.
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No need for the personal abuse.
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
Well, it kind of was, wasn't it?
The obvious inference from the subject being discussed is that we don't attract enough attendees from racial minorities (especially when you consider the community around Villa Park).
Even before you get into the pros and cons of targetting specific communities, there's the fact that we need all the help we can get in filling our ground, which is what Percy said.
Honestly, I can say that the increase in the numbers of Asian fans attending our matches is one of the things that makes me happiest about our support these days. I have friends who support Newcastle and Sunderland, and they get hardly any Asian fans at their games.
I go to our matches and see - nowhere near enough, but it's a start - lots of Asian fans there.
Aston Villa is about Brummies, it is a Brummie institution, and the people of Birmingham - given that we are by far the second most racially diverse city in this country after London, which is itself the most racially diverse city in Europe, and possibly the world - are of a variety of ethnic and racial backgrounds.
I want the club to reflect the city as much as it can, and I want Brummies of Indian, Pakistani, Jamaican, West Indian, Eastern European, whatever you like, descent to think that this is their club as well.
Nobody knows what the men who made this club great would want, but I'd take a guess that visionaries of the likes of McGregor, were they around today, would want the same thing too.
I know you could probably say that sounds woolly and Guardian reader-ish, and you'd probably have a point, but I genuinely believe it, so hey ho.
The club is on the door step of a very Asian community but that is not the reason they do not attend football matches nor that you see few professional footballers from the Asian community.
Culturally football has not been adopted into the culture.
I see many black people at Villa Park but not in groups, thankfully, because culturally they have integrated into the culture.
All this talk of neo-nazis is blatant nonsense.
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No need for the personal abuse.
Agreed, I will accept an apology for being branded a nazi.
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Certainly. Could you do likewise for your 'absolute moron' post?
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I can only speak for the 9 or 10 on my row but we are as racially integrated as you get.
2 middle aged white chaps on the one end and a row of Asians, to include one lady and the associated kids of branches of the family.
Its bloody great. The look of excitement and horror in the youngest ones face at the QPR game was a joy.
We got a late winner, my mate shot past me to celebrate with his Dad, and I hoisted junior above me like a cheap flag, before he was high fiving me after.
He is 8 but a smashing little chap. In fact, our row of people is a big part of why I keep that season ticket.
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
So we should just ignore every other potential new supporter?
Where have I said that? My experience of football fans are not chosen they chose.
You said it where you said "The fan base already exists." As for "football fans are not chosen they chose," what does that mean?
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Well I suppose I may as well come in at some point.
I think we need some re-thinking to this whole question. I have to say at this point that I do think the club are doing quite well in this area at the moment. But most, if not all clubs, started as the focal point or their community. Or, if not immediately, they soonbecome so. Now that community has moved out and taken the club with them. but the ground and the club are still in the same area. So, we need to work tirelessly to put the club at the centre of that 'new' community.
Some say that a winning team brings fan in whoever they are from wherever they live. But this hasn't borne out to be the case when we've previously successsful (ish) teams. 5-10 000 more fans will see the vast majority of existing fans return, not new ones. So, we have to recognise that and find out a way of appealing to them. Making the club their club. Its not just about what goes on the pitch. You get them coming into the club, and the ground, for non-footballing reasons and more and more will find their way through to matchday.
Yes, I could be wrong. But what clubs are failing to do is come up with new ideas. As I said, Villa are doing well in this area. But so far what is the return regarding the local community? are they coming in any more numbers? It doesn't seem so. Villa are still not trying a different approach but the same one as seen everywhere else, although to a higher standard.
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The club is on the door step of a very Asian community but that is not the reason they do not attend football matches nor that you see few professional footballers from the Asian community.
Culturally football has not been adopted into the culture.
I see many black people at Villa Park but not in groups, thankfully, because culturally they have integrated into the culture.
All this talk of neo-nazis is blatant nonsense.
So, if there is not a natural fit, culturally, between the Asian population and football, what do we do? Isn't part of the reason you see so many black fans at matches these days because, over the years, football has reached out into that community?
Also, clearly football isn't a total disconnect for the asian population, as there are increasing numbers of them coming to the matches.
That's what we need to work on.
I don't know why you raise the neo-nazi point with me. I didn't say you were.
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
So we should just ignore every other potential new supporter?
Where have I said that? My experience of football fans are not chosen they chose.
You said it where you said "The fan base already exists." As for "football fans are not chosen they chose," what does that mean?
I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
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I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
Not quite.
I'd agree that it's probably the main thing that will have an impact, but it's not the only thing.
Lower ticket prices, a big-name signing, more convenient kick-off times and a more pleasurable stadium experience could all potentially have an impact on the number of people choosing to watch a match or not.
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
Can you advise where I mention in and which culture would you like me to describe?
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
What if there are people out there who are interested in the game, would want to go to one, but feel too intimidated - for whatever reason - to do so.
I honestly can't see the point of arguments against trying to encourage interest in the club in all areas of society.
Nobody is talking about forcing any sort of interest - you can't do that, of course.
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
Can you advise where I mention in and which culture would you like me to describe?
Presumably you employ sales people, or are your customers born, nor created? The culture you described as 'our' culture, as in "Football is a culture within our culture."
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
Can you advise where I mention in and which culture would you like me to describe?
Presumably you employ sales people, or are your customers born, nor created? The culture you described as 'our' culture, as in "Football is a culture within our culture."
I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
Can you advise where I mention in and which culture would you like me to describe?
Presumably you employ sales people, or are your customers born, nor created? The culture you described as 'our' culture, as in "Football is a culture within our culture."
I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
Can you advise where I mention in and which culture would you like me to describe?
Presumably you employ sales people, or are your customers born, nor created? The culture you described as 'our' culture, as in "Football is a culture within our culture."
I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
Can you advise where I mention in and which culture would you like me to describe?
Presumably you employ sales people, or are your customers born, nor created? The culture you described as 'our' culture, as in "Football is a culture within our culture."
I do the sales myself and have seen phenomenal growth for my little empire. Turned over £6m last year from a standing start in 2009. I am able to sell to my customers because I have identified they need my service to trade. My jobs has been to convince them that my company is the one to deliver it. Football fans don't need football.
The culture I refer to is that of working class people. They have been the back bone of football supporters from day one, though I have seen a change in that dynamic since the onset of the SKY years.
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So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after 1990?
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Why does the ethnicity of the crowd need to be changed?
It is surely desirable that attendances increase, and one way to do that is to attract more people from ethnic minorities.
I don't believe that was the original question?
I find it all a little racist to suggest we need to recruit anyone on the basis of their ethnicity.
If we want to increase attendance's then we need a better team. The fan base already exists, the club just need to give them a reason to come back, not create a new one.
So we should just ignore every other potential new supporter?
Where have I said that? My experience of football fans are not chosen they chose.
You said it where you said "The fan base already exists." As for "football fans are not chosen they chose," what does that mean?
I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
I think its quite the opposite. Football fans generally support their local team and has come from being taken. I didn't choose to go to Villa I was taken. my love for Villa was forced on me. And I am thankful for that. also, I am now inflicting this rollercoaster ride onto my 3 year-old, andhis 5 month old brother will also have it forced upon him.
There are those that either have other reasons for attending Villa matches, but not many simply because they just chose to go.
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I do the sales myself and have seen phenomenal growth for my little empire. Turned over £6m last year from a standing start in 2009. I am able to sell to my customers because I have identified they need my service to trade. My jobs has been to convince them that my company is the one to deliver it. Football fans don't need football.
The culture I refer to is that of working class people. They have been the back bone of football supporters from day one, though I have seen a change in that dynamic since the onset of the SKY years.
You're arguing against yourself there. On the one hand, football fans are chosen (whatever that means) and nobody ever decides one day that they might fancy going to a match, but on the other nobody needs football so it doesn't have to be sold.
Villa average gate in 1985-86 15,000. In 2007-08, over 40,000. That indicates to me that virtually an entire new support was created.
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So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after 1990?
So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after 1990?
Because it became sanitised. They are still mostly floating fans IMO and make up the majority of this missing from VP.
Look at the corporate area on the Trinity Road, its the last section to ever sell out.
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So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after 1990?
So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after 1990?
Because it became sanitised. They are still mostly floating fans IMO and make up the majority of this missing from VP.
Look at the corporate area on the Trinity Road, its the last section to ever sell out.
Yet again you're arguing against yourself. You say we need to get the floating fans back. You say football fans are working class. You say the floating fans are middle class. Which is it?
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I do the sales myself and have seen phenomenal growth for my little empire. Turned over £6m last year from a standing start in 2009. I am able to sell to my customers because I have identified they need my service to trade. My jobs has been to convince them that my company is the one to deliver it. Football fans don't need football.
The culture I refer to is that of working class people. They have been the back bone of football supporters from day one, though I have seen a change in that dynamic since the onset of the SKY years.
You're arguing against yourself there. On the one hand, football fans are chosen (whatever that means) and nobody ever decides one day that they might fancy going to a match, but on the other nobody needs football so it doesn't have to be sold.
Villa average gate in 1985-86 15,000. In 2007-08, over 40,000. That indicates to me that virtually an entire new support was created.
I said footballs choose and are not chosen. I chose to go to Villa Ark as a 10 year old with no parental encouragement so can only speak from experience.
As for the attendance's the reasons for that were down mostly to hooliganism, look at the attendance's prior to the advent of hippies kicking lumps out of anything that moved at a football match. ,
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I do the sales myself and have seen phenomenal growth for my little empire. Turned over £6m last year from a standing start in 2009. I am able to sell to my customers because I have identified they need my service to trade. My jobs has been to convince them that my company is the one to deliver it. Football fans don't need football.
The culture I refer to is that of working class people. They have been the back bone of football supporters from day one, though I have seen a change in that dynamic since the onset of the SKY years.
You're arguing against yourself there. On the one hand, football fans are chosen (whatever that means) and nobody ever decides one day that they might fancy going to a match, but on the other nobody needs football so it doesn't have to be sold.
Villa average gate in 1985-86 15,000. In 2007-08, over 40,000. That indicates to me that virtually an entire new support was created.
I said footballs choose and are not chosen. I chose to go to Villa Ark as a 10 year old with no parental encouragement so can only speak from experience.
As for the attendance's the reasons for that were down mostly to hooliganism, look at the attendance's prior to the advent of hippies kicking lumps out of anything that moved at a football match. ,
If you can only speak from experience, why have you generalised all the way through this thread? And if people choose why shouldn't they be persuaded to choose us rather than anywhere else - just like you do in your business?
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So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after
So, if football is a culture within a culture that has taken generation on generation to develop, how come it got so popular with the middle classes so very quickly, after 1990?
Because it became sanitised. They are still mostly floating fans IMO and make up the majority of this missing from VP.
Look at the corporate area on the Trinity Road, its the last section to ever sell out.
Yet again you're arguing against yourself. You say we need to get the floating fans back. You say football fans are working class. You say the floating fans are middle class. Which is it?
Do you feel frustrated tonight?
The hardcore of football support is working class and I would make up 95% of the current crowd at Villa Park. There are many more working class fans that are unable to attend through a variety of reasons.
Middle Class, though I would like a description of the classes, are not under the same restraints in the main but choose not to go. That is because the football is not good, hence the corporate areas are mostly empty.
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Football hasn't been working class for years.
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I'm not frustrated, and I don't know why you should ask such a question. I'm confused as to why you are against ideas to raise attendances,so keen to alienate such a large potential number of supporters, and so desperate to claim that the Villa Park crowd is something it hasn't been for decades.
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I do the sales myself and have seen phenomenal growth for my little empire. Turned over £6m last year from a standing start in 2009. I am able to sell to my customers because I have identified they need my service to trade. My jobs has been to convince them that my company is the one to deliver it. Football fans don't need football.
The culture I refer to is that of working class people. They have been the back bone of football supporters from day one, though I have seen a change in that dynamic since the onset of the SKY years.
You're arguing against yourself there. On the one hand, football fans are chosen (whatever that means) and nobody ever decides one day that they might fancy going to a match, but on the other nobody needs football so it doesn't have to be sold.
Villa average gate in 1985-86 15,000. In 2007-08, over 40,000. That indicates to me that virtually an entire new support was created.
I said footballs choose and are not chosen. I chose to go to Villa Ark as a 10 year old with no parental encouragement so can only speak from experience.
As for the attendance's the reasons for that were down mostly to hooliganism, look at the attendance's prior to the advent of hippies kicking lumps out of anything that moved at a football match. ,
If you can only speak from experience, why have you generalised all the way through this thread? And if people choose why shouldn't they be persuaded to choose us rather than anywhere else - just like you do in your business?
This is hard work, the original question was about encouraging more ethnicities down to VP. They do not need football so can choose not to attend. My customers need the service I provide to trade so I have the opportunity to sell to them through need!
As for generalisations, this thread is all about that unless someone can put up a census of the local population of Aston as to why they decide not to attend football matches.
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I'd just like to say that turnover is vanity.
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What do you mean by "need" football?
That's a very strange word to use in conjunction with football. Your customers need your services because without them, they can't trade.
Football attenders can get enjoyment by going to football matches, but that doesn't mean they "need" football to gain enjoyment. Look at the numbers who have stopped going to Villa Park over the last two years for an illustration of that.
Football is an expensive, luxury product these days. It hasn't been the opium of the working man for at least twenty years.
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
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I'm not frustrated, and I don't know why you should ask such a question. I'm confused as to why you are against ideas to raise attendances,so keen to alienate such a large potential number of supporters, and so desperate to claim that the Villa Park crowd is something it hasn't been for decades.
Who am I alienating? I would be as happy as the next person to see a full Villa Park again, but my statement that this is down to a poor team is forgotten by some leading questions trying to make me give you an answer you want to hear, which is not going to happen.
So my final word, if Aston Villa which to see a full house again, irrespective of the race or sex of that support, improve the team.
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I'm not frustrated, and I don't know why you should ask such a question. I'm confused as to why you are against ideas to raise attendances,so keen to alienate such a large potential number of supporters, and so desperate to claim that the Villa Park crowd is something it hasn't been for decades.
Who am I alienating? I would be as happy as the next person to see a full Villa Park again, but my statement that this is down to a poor team is forgotten by some leading questions trying to make me give you an answer you want to hear, which is not going to happen.
So my final word, if Aston Villa which to see a full house again, irrespective of the race or sex of that support, improve the team.
But you've moved your original argument on.
I'd agree with your final word, improving the team is the most reliable route to bigger crowds, but I fail to see how that can be used as an argument against encouraging people from different ethnic backgrounds to attend.
Why don't we do both?
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
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I've seen more Asians at Villa park this season than any I can recall which is encouraging. I also had a lady from Malaysia at the Swansea game sat next to me who had flown all the way just to see villa play.
Jesus Christ, talk about picking the right home game to go to!
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
Just as long as it stays within specific cultural boundaries.
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
And in the meantime they can make the same people want to attend games by making Villa Park a more attractive place for them to visit, particularly those sections of the city's population at present under-represented in our crowds. Do you want them there, or not?
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I'd just like to say I know plenty of Asians who love the Villa. Most of the lads I went with in the late 80's early 90's were Asian, but the shit they had to take for being football fans (often from other Villa fans, including taking kickings in the Holte) in the bad old days I wouldn't be at all surprised if some ethnic groups were still intimidated about going.
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
With respect this is total bollox. I know that my dads generation whilst not actually going to live matches took to it and when I was young I listened to them discuss the saturday matches ad nauseum and getting together to tune into MotD yet there was no sign of football in the sub continent that they left about 10 years earlier as young migrants. For my and my children's generation it is as popular as in any household across the country. It does not need 50 years of embedding!
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Employ someone like Benjamin Zephaniah to reach out to the local population. He's a Villa fan who encountered racism at home games as a child. But he still decided to go because of his love for the club. If he can get that message across, including the huge improvements in that area, and its a step in the right direction.
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VillaBobby may have a point, although I seem to remember him banging on on about Marxists for no particular reason one time: the ethnics don't need it; we don't need it, nobody needs the Factory of Sadness in their lives.
Singalonga Detroit Emeralds' "Feel The Need In Me" and tug your slug to the lascivious Legs and Co (always liked Sue, myself).
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Most of the lads I went with in the late 80's early 90's were Asian,
How many lads have you been with...you tart!
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Employ someone like Benjamin Zephaniah to reach out to the local population. He's a Villa fan who encountered racism at home games as a child. But he still decided to go because of his love for the club. If he can get that message across, including the huge improvements in that area, and its a step in the right direction.
Yes good idea and I will stand in for him when he is busy!
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How have you encountered things aftba, and a racism point at villa? Are there more asians going in your personal experience? What more do you think the club should do?
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I Am Desmond Morris.....
I don't believe that the English of the nineteenth century took to the game for the game's sake, but because the rapid and widespread creation of local clubs provided communities with a "tribal" identity whilst existing within the homogeneous working-class society of the time. Extrapolate this to the modern day, and the same need still exists amongst the descendants of those people, only the requirement to ally oneself to a local club no longer applies, as, through the plethora of available media, it is possible to "support" any club, watch every minute that they play, stay in touch with the goings-on, and know more about individual players than any previous generation, without ever setting foot in the ground where they play.
But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?
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Most of the lads I went with in the late 80's early 90's were Asian,
How many lads have you been with...you tart!
Arf!
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I Am Desmond Morris.....
I don't believe that the English of the nineteenth century took to the game for the game's sake, but because the rapid and widespread creation of local clubs provided communities with a "tribal" identity whilst existing within the homogeneous working-class society of the time. Extrapolate this to the modern day, and the same need still exists amongst the descendants of those people, only the requirement to ally oneself to a local club no longer applies, as, through the plethora of available media, it is possible to "support" any club, watch every minute that they play, stay in touch with the goings-on, and know more about individual players than any previous generation, without ever setting foot in the ground where they play.
But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?
Because they want to watch a football match, perhaps?
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Bloody hell Dave, you'll be suggesting women down the Villa next!
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How have you encountered things aftba, and a racism point at villa? Are there more asians going in your personal experience? What more do you think the club should do?
Since you asked...
I have written about this before. Things were very nasty in the 80's. Being spat on and abused at VP were par for course. In the early 90's whilst there was a general improvement in the atmosphere I still felt a little awkward when buying my season ticket simply because I felt fans around me would not like me sitting with them every week. So most of the match I sat there quiet, yes at home matches, fearing if I shouted at Villa players I would be picked on. This came from a unfortunate experience I had during the world cup 1990. I turned up to watch the semi final v Germany wearing an England shirt. I was immediately confronted by a group telling me that I had no right to wear that shirt. I left the venue and have never worn the shirt again even though I have been to all world cups since than , except USA 1994, to watch England games. You could say what does that has to do with Villa....well it's the general feeling of being differentiated and not being allowed to belong.
I can genuinely say that for the last 10 may be 15 years I have felt very confortable at VP and I do see a lot more asians however the Club needs to do more to remove the embedded negative image Asians have about racial abuse...listen I could write pages about my experiences and what we should do but may be another time.
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Bloody hell Dave, you'll be suggesting women down the Villa next!
I certainly don't believe anyone's saying that.
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Why would they ever come?
Because they want to watch a football match, perhaps?
I've never gone to VP in my life to watch a football match. I could do, and have done, that anywhere. The only reason I go to Villa Park is to watch Aston Villa.
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But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?
So don't bother trying then?
You seem to be saying that particular ethnic groups only stick to their own and feel no need to integrate and sample anything that is seen as quintessentially British, such as club football?
This doesn't stand up at all as most Asians I know support a football club, okay so many are armchair supporters of Man Utd and Liverpool but plenty of others pledge allegiance to local teams. Is it such a big step from them watching it on telly and chatting about it at work or in the pub to being persuaded to give it a go live?
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Spot on paulie.
I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.
Would you like back up your claim with fact and not conjecture?
You absolute moron. If I have a different opinion to yours ten i am a nazi?
Obviously you hadn't noticed, but if you read my post again you will see I already apologised.
Are you surprised every year when the St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham fails to incite large scale civil disorder in the way that a friendly against Celtic inevitably would?
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But what we are talking about is trying to get people to come who already have their own identity within wider society by virtue of their immigrant heritage. Basically, they don't need club football. Why would they ever come?
So don't bother trying then?
You seem to be saying that particular ethnic groups only stick to their own and feel no need to integrate and sample anything that is seen as quintessentially British, such as club football?
This doesn't stand up at all as most Asians I know support a football club, okay so many are armchair supporters of Man Utd and Liverpool but plenty of others pledge allegiance to local teams. Is it such a big step from them watching it on telly and chatting about it at work or in the pub to being persuaded to give it a go live?
I'm not saying it should have anything to do with integration at all. My argument was that club football supporting is tribal, it provides a collective identity, more often than not imprinted by parents and peers; and that if something in your make-up already provides this, why then feel the need to ally oneself to something as relatively inconsequential as a football club? In this day and age, I don't think that the cultural diversity of Villa Park crowds is the overriding problem, I believe that that's symptomatic of the average age. You didn't go as a kid, you'll almost certainly not go as an adult. If the average of a punter in the ground these days is probably knocking forty, then you need to get middle-aged blokes of ethnic origin, who have never had much interest in the game, or, more importantly, the club, to start coming, to instill a tradition. That was something that needed to happen forty years ago, and it most definitely didn't. If we can get more kids in, given the cultural make-up and general tolerance of our city, the diversity will come of its own, I feel. But in an age when the armchair fan is king, it's difficult to know how to sway an impressionable young head in our direction, especially if your parents frankly don't care and your mates are all Sky. Does local history get taught much in schools? Maybe we need to get Villa onto the curriculum. That, or win the Champion's League.
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Spot on paulie.
I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.
Would you like back up your claim with fact and not conjecture?
You absolute moron. If I have a different opinion to yours ten i am a nazi?
Obviously you hadn't noticed, but if you read my post again you will see I already apologised.
Are you surprised every year when the St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham fails to incite large scale civil disorder in the way that a friendly against Celtic inevitably would?
Leave it out please Percy.
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How have you encountered things aftba, and a racism point at villa? Are there more asians going in your personal experience? What more do you think the club should do?
Since you asked...
I have written about this before. Things were very nasty in the 80's. Being spat on and abused at VP were par for course. In the early 90's whilst there was a general improvement in the atmosphere I still felt a little awkward when buying my season ticket simply because I felt fans around me would not like me sitting with them every week. So most of the match I sat there quiet, yes at home matches, fearing if I shouted at Villa players I would be picked on. This came from a unfortunate experience I had during the world cup 1990. I turned up to watch the semi final v Germany wearing an England shirt. I was immediately confronted by a group telling me that I had no right to wear that shirt. I left the venue and have never worn the shirt again even though I have been to all world cups since than , except USA 1994, to watch England games. You could say what does that has to do with Villa....well it's the general feeling of being differentiated and not being allowed to belong.
I can genuinely say that for the last 10 may be 15 years I have felt very confortable at VP and I do see a lot more asians however the Club needs to do more to remove the embedded negative image Asians have about racial abuse...listen I could write pages about my experiences and what we should do but may be another time.
Gosh Aftab, I really have no idea about what this is like.
I am really stunned, not because I've never heard of racism, but that your description is so graphic and that I can't begin to think whether I would have bothered going anywhere near football or VP again, if I'd been treated like this.
The fact that you have is a bit of a bonus for the club that we all have in common. Loved the description of the debate around MOTD (earlier post) - the same thing was going on in our house.
Very glad that you are still here and posting and obviously going to more matches than I do, and I appreciate that this was definitely not a 'better fan than yow,' post. I think the Villa could learn a lot from you.
All the best and UTV!
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I'm not saying it should have anything to do with integration at all. My argument was that club football supporting is tribal, it provides a collective identity, more often than not imprinted by parents and peers; and that if something in your make-up already provides this, why then feel the need to ally oneself to something as relatively inconsequential as a football club?
I think you are over-simplifying the make up of a football crowd to suit your own reasons for supporting the Villa. For every football fan who feels part of some sort of tribe (or congregation for those who see football as some sort of religion!) or who were brow-beaten by parents, siblings or their peers into supporting the club there will be countless others with many different reasons.
Take me, I don't see following football as tribal, I do it because I like live football. None of my family were Villa fans, most had little interest in the game at all. At school in Tamworth there were fans of many clubs, Villa maybe had the edge but there were almost as many Blues, Liverpool and Leeds fans, my best mates supported Leicester and Sunderland (because they won the cup in '73 but he's stuck with them ever since, season ticket holder for thirty-odd years despite never living up there).
I chose Villa becuase my next-door neighbour used to go and would take me with him if I could be prised away from Tiswas. ("It'll do yer good to get out the house" me mom would say).
In the Sky era I doubt many youngsters see football as particularly tribal, they are used to the sanitised pversion we now have to watch. Football at the higher levels is now a product to be sold to whoever will pay.
I also don't get what you are trying to say about other ethnic groups. Are you saying that because they are Indian (for instance) and know other Indians, they will never want or need to do anything that isn't seen as "Indian"? So they can play cricket, eat curries and watch Bollywood films but will never want to go and watch Die Hard, eat a Big Mac and go and see the Villa because none of those activities are part of their "culture"?
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Personally I think the club needs to keep improving ways to get the kids interested, get the current adults bringing kids with them. They're the next generation. I couldn't give a fuck whether they're black, white, brown, pink, orange, red or blue skinned. It's too easy for kids - especially teenagers, to have to be fashionable and support a 'winning' team...
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Its always been too easy to support winning teams. As I grew up, everyone had Liverpool and Everton bags at school. Shops didnt stock other teams stuff. Man United started winning things and suddenly everything was Manure
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Personally I think the club needs to keep improving ways to get the kids interested, get the current adults bringing kids with them. They're the next generation. I couldn't give a fuck whether they're black, white, brown, pink, orange, red or blue skinned. It's too easy for kids - especially teenagers, to have to be fashionable and support a 'winning' team...
Thats a great point mate, but so bloody hard to do.
My daughter (15) has been a season ticket holder for 5 years.
For the last 5 years years, the poor girl has been absolutely bored to death at Villa Park. Although I try to be upbeat and positive during the game, for her sake, it very difficult when the team is consistently shite !!
Maybe things are turning the corner, but I think I will have a battle royale this summer to convince her to keep her ticket.
There are far better things she could be doing with her mates on Saturday afternoon than sitting in the pub for an hour with her old man and his mates, and then suffering the match itself!!
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
And in the meantime they can make the same people want to attend games by making Villa Park a more attractive place for them to visit, particularly those sections of the city's population at present under-represented in our crowds. Do you want them there, or not?
I am not concerned by the ethnic back ground of the crowd, I want people to attend Villa Park who want to attend. I would rather sit next to an enthusiastic Villa fan from the moon than one that has little interest & only turned up for the free ticket.
I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
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Spot on paulie.
I think Villa Bobby came across as borderline BNP in some other discussion we had ages ago. Just the impression I got, apologies if he's a full-on Nazi. Or not.
Would you like back up your claim with fact and not conjecture?
You absolute moron. If I have a different opinion to yours ten i am a nazi?
Obviously you hadn't noticed, but if you read my post again you will see I already apologised.
Are you surprised every year when the St Patrick's Day parade in Birmingham fails to incite large scale civil disorder in the way that a friendly against Celtic inevitably would?
I would guess that as the St Patricks Day parade is attended by mostly first/second/third generation Irish people who are as Burmmie as the next man & do not use it as a vessel to antagonise like a Celtic game would do then I wouldn't see any need for anyone to create disorder.
I have been to several Celtic games so I can speak from experience on that subject & I have been drunk at the parade so I can have an opinion I believe.
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Personally I think the club needs to keep improving ways to get the kids interested, get the current adults bringing kids with them. They're the next generation. I couldn't give a fuck whether they're black, white, brown, pink, orange, red or blue skinned. It's too easy for kids - especially teenagers, to have to be fashionable and support a 'winning' team...
This is correct IMO. Kids are the future of the club & there are not enough attending Villa Park. Finance would be a major factor in & this & I seen schemes from the club giving tickets to local schools in Aston, Witton, Handsworth & Hockley which is great. But what about kids from other parts of the city where finance is tight?
My son goes to school in Barr Beacon & he has had a season ticket with me for 6 years now but he has said his school has never had any representation from the club let alone the offer of free tickets for the less well off.
As has been mentioned, if we bring the kids from all corners of the city, the ethnic mix will come naturally as it will be reflecting of the city & not engineered.
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
And in the meantime they can make the same people want to attend games by making Villa Park a more attractive place for them to visit, particularly those sections of the city's population at present under-represented in our crowds. Do you want them there, or not?
I am not concerned by the ethnic back ground of the crowd, I want people to attend Villa Park who want to attend. I would rather sit next to an enthusiastic Villa fan from the moon than one that has little interest & only turned up for the free ticket.
I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
Yes I do. Some races/religions are scandalously under-represented in the make -up of football crowds and aftab's experiences above are one of the main reasons. Some years ago we had a game v Bolton where local people were given tickets, halal food was sold and certain areas of the game made alcohol-free. I don't know if it had a major effect but there seem to be a lot more Asian Villa supporters now than there were before then.
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I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
Any business which deals with tens of thousands of customers, and wants to attract more of them, will - as part of that process, not the entirety of it - look at sectors in the demographic where they particularly underperform and try to encourage more 'trade' from there.
The fact is, if Villa target people living in postcode areas close to the ground, they are going to be largely talking about the Asian population of Aston. Looking at the demographics of Aston, only 20% or so are "white British".
Those Asian families weren't targetted "because" they're Asian, they were targetted because they live in the local area. So, if you're targetting a group which is majority Asian, you are obviously going to look at their needs particularly closer.
Your argument that by targetting everyone, the Asian interest in the game will come as part of that wider demographic totally ignores the fact that the perceived barriers to attending football matches is going to be very different for Asian families than it is for white British ones - and the reasons are pretty obvious.
As Dave said above, look at aftab's experience.
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
And in the meantime they can make the same people want to attend games by making Villa Park a more attractive place for them to visit, particularly those sections of the city's population at present under-represented in our crowds. Do you want them there, or not?
I am not concerned by the ethnic back ground of the crowd, I want people to attend Villa Park who want to attend. I would rather sit next to an enthusiastic Villa fan from the moon than one that has little interest & only turned up for the free ticket.
I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
Yes I do. Some races/religions are scandalously under-represented in the make -up of football crowds and aftab's experiences above are one of the main reasons. Some years ago we had a game v Bolton where local people were given tickets, halal food was sold and certain areas of the game made alcohol-free. I don't know if it had a major effect but there seem to be a lot more Asian Villa supporters now than there were before then.
When was this game?
I have not missed a home game for 28 years & don't seem to recall that. Though it may well have happened and I would not welcome the selling of halal food per-say & abandonment of alcohol as you will alienate other supporters who are not practising Islam.
You could also encourage more none English speaking people to Villa Park with your publication.
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I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
Any business which deals with tens of thousands of customers, and wants to attract more of them, will - as part of that process, not the entirety of it - look at sectors in the demographic where they particularly underperform and try to encourage more 'trade' from there.
The fact is, if Villa target people living in postcode areas close to the ground, they are going to be largely talking about the Asian population of Aston. Looking at the demographics of Aston, only 20% or so are "white British".
Those Asian families weren't targetted "because" they're Asian, they were targetted because they live in the local area. So, if you're targetting a group which is majority Asian, you are obviously going to look at their needs particularly closer.
Your argument that by targetting everyone, the Asian interest in the game will come as part of that wider demographic totally ignores the fact that the perceived barriers to attending football matches is going to be very different for Asian families than it is for white British ones - and the reasons are pretty obvious.
As Dave said above, look at aftab's experience.
I disagree that any business will target under performing area's within it business which will create greater expenditure & bring little sustainable value. You imply the campaign was aimed towards a specific ethnic group, I would disagree as the marketing would have been more appealing than just ticket reduction but more at the culture.
A lot of assumption on this thread, is there any detail I can examine that supports the assumptions?
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
And in the meantime they can make the same people want to attend games by making Villa Park a more attractive place for them to visit, particularly those sections of the city's population at present under-represented in our crowds. Do you want them there, or not?
I am not concerned by the ethnic back ground of the crowd, I want people to attend Villa Park who want to attend. I would rather sit next to an enthusiastic Villa fan from the moon than one that has little interest & only turned up for the free ticket.
I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
Yes I do. Some races/religions are scandalously under-represented in the make -up of football crowds and aftab's experiences above are one of the main reasons. Some years ago we had a game v Bolton where local people were given tickets, halal food was sold and certain areas of the game made alcohol-free. I don't know if it had a major effect but there seem to be a lot more Asian Villa supporters now than there were before then.
When was this game?
I have not missed a home game for 28 years & don't seem to recall that. Though it may well have happened and I would not welcome the selling of halal food per-say & abandonment of alcohol as you will alienate other supporters who are not practising Islam.
You could also encourage more none English speaking people to Villa Park with your publication.
The game was in 2007 or 2008. Halal food and an alcohol-free area was in one small part of the ground and the only people who would be alienated by such a thing would be those looking to be so offended. My publication has been all-inclusive since it began, as a regular reader would know.
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Nothing wrong with Halal food. It's a lot tastier than the other shite turned out at most football grounds.
A alcohol free zone i don't think there is a need for as that is simply your choice if you drink or not.
I don't think that zoning of a small part of the ground for the Halal is good either as this is the same as Ethnic segregation. Make Halal available in all food serving kiosks, surely it would not be that hard to do. Seeing as a large number of the staff who work in the food kiosks are from a non white background surely they should have more of an input as to what food is served. A bloody huge pan of Chicken Balti or Vegitarian Balti could be done in most of the kiosks and i know what i would choose to eat given the choice of a shitty burger or a tray with chips and balti. No contest.
Jamaican chicken, rice and peas, easy to prepare for masses of people and also highly profitable.
Just an idea.Bloody good one i think.
The local cultural food available in the ground would be fantastic.
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I think there is plenty wrong with Halal food, in particular the method of slaughter. Doesn't taste any different to me, either.
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I think there is plenty wrong with Halal food, in particular the method of slaughter. Doesn't taste any different to me, either.
But we are on about balancing the Cultural diversity of our football fans, so this may be a way to do that. Not a fan of the slaughtering process myself but then the people who eat Halal food are not fond of the way we slaughter our animals either.
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Let me get this right. It's fine for you to sell your service to other businesses because they need it. Villa don't need to, indeed they most definitely should not, encourage "more ethnicities" to attend Villa Park because they don't need football. Shall we leave this open for others to comment on?
It's your board so you can leave it open if you wish. Again trying to put words into my mouth. My opinion is Aston Villa should be looking to sell itself to everyone, not a particular race, but all races. The best way the club can do that is to put a competitive team on the pitch.
And in the meantime they can make the same people want to attend games by making Villa Park a more attractive place for them to visit, particularly those sections of the city's population at present under-represented in our crowds. Do you want them there, or not?
I am not concerned by the ethnic back ground of the crowd, I want people to attend Villa Park who want to attend. I would rather sit next to an enthusiastic Villa fan from the moon than one that has little interest & only turned up for the free ticket.
I believe Villa have tried to attract the local population, they didn't do it base of ethnicity though which is correct, they based it upon postcode offering discounted tickets etc & I have not seen any real uptake, but then I don't ask people postcodes in the stadium.
Do you believe the club should be targeting specific races?
Yes I do. Some races/religions are scandalously under-represented in the make -up of football crowds and aftab's experiences above are one of the main reasons. Some years ago we had a game v Bolton where local people were given tickets, halal food was sold and certain areas of the game made alcohol-free. I don't know if it had a major effect but there seem to be a lot more Asian Villa supporters now than there were before then.
When was this game?
I have not missed a home game for 28 years & don't seem to recall that. Though it may well have happened and I would not welcome the selling of halal food per-say & abandonment of alcohol as you will alienate other supporters who are not practising Islam.
You could also encourage more none English speaking people to Villa Park with your publication.
The game was in 2007 or 2008. Halal food and an alcohol-free area was in one small part of the ground and the only people who would be alienated by such a thing would be those looking to be so offended. My publication has been all-inclusive since it began, as a regular reader would know.
I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
As for your publication, I have read several issues and I was not questioning its content, though you could consider it to make it more appealing to the wider community. I was referring to taking it into the local community. Your publication is part of many people's Villa Park experience and seeing how passionate you are about attracting more of a diverse crowd, how about giving free copies to the local community and get them to contribute just as the club have done?
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
Who said it wasn't successful?
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I disagree that any business will target under performing area's within it business which will create greater expenditure & bring little sustainable value. You imply the campaign was aimed towards a specific ethnic group, I would disagree as the marketing would have been more appealing than just ticket reduction but more at the culture.
A lot of assumption on this thread, is there any detail I can examine that supports the assumptions?
It depends what your business is. It might involve expenditure at the outset, but if we help more people understand what Villa is about, then maybe it has a long term benefit?
There's not really any assumption on this thread, and if you're implying that people are suggesting unfairly that you made it about ethnicity, you were the one who asked why it needed changing in the first place.
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A alcohol free zone i don't think there is a need for as that is simply your choice if you drink or not.
It was in an area of the ground which is now alcohol free every match, ironically.
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
As for your publication, I have read several issues and I was not questioning its content, though you could consider it to make it more appealing to the wider community. I was referring to taking it into the local community. Your publication is part of many people's Villa Park experience and seeing how passionate you are about attracting more of a diverse crowd, how about giving free copies to the local community and get them to contribute just as the club have done?
Equally interesting that you consider taking peoples' cultural sensibilities into account 'seperatist' when the area in question was open to all. I would say that encouraging them to attend Villa Park is the very opposite.
I'm currently involved in a project that will, if all goes well, make the local community feel more involved with the Villa.
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A alcohol free zone i don't think there is a need for as that is simply your choice if you drink or not.
It was in an area of the ground which is now alcohol free every match, ironically.
I was unaware there was an area that is alcohol free. How long has that been the case?
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I think there is plenty wrong with Halal food, in particular the method of slaughter. Doesn't taste any different to me, either.
Careful you are opening up a new can of worms here! And nothing wrong with the method of slaughter but let's not fall out on that?
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
As for your publication, I have read several issues and I was not questioning its content, though you could consider it to make it more appealing to the wider community. I was referring to taking it into the local community. Your publication is part of many people's Villa Park experience and seeing how passionate you are about attracting more of a diverse crowd, how about giving free copies to the local community and get them to contribute just as the club have done?
Equally interesting that you consider taking peoples' cultural sensibilities into account 'seperatist' when the area in question was open to all. I would say that encouraging them to attend Villa Park is the very opposite.
I'm currently involved in a project that will, if all goes well, make the local community feel more involved with the Villa.
I am confused as I was under the impression a section of the stadium was allocated for halal and alcohol free and you mentioned seeing a collective of asain folk?
I said it couldn't have been successful as I am not aware of the same area being used? I have no idea if there was an uptake from the people who attended, but the fact we are debating the subject I guess not.
Regarding your project. Good luck, lets hope we can all see a much improved Villa side to support it.
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A alcohol free zone i don't think there is a need for as that is simply your choice if you drink or not.
Yes that is correct. As far as I know it doesn't rain alcohol,you still have to purchase it and drink, so its choice.
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A alcohol free zone i don't think there is a need for as that is simply your choice if you drink or not.
Yes that is correct. As far as I know it doesn't rain alcohol,you still have to purchase it and drink, so its choice.
Just had a quick look and as far as i can see the only part of the ground where alcohol is not sold is the away supporters end. Anybody know any different ?
Oh, and Lerners private box. He is never bloody there to have a drink.
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
As for your publication, I have read several issues and I was not questioning its content, though you could consider it to make it more appealing to the wider community. I was referring to taking it into the local community. Your publication is part of many people's Villa Park experience and seeing how passionate you are about attracting more of a diverse crowd, how about giving free copies to the local community and get them to contribute just as the club have done?
Equally interesting that you consider taking peoples' cultural sensibilities into account 'seperatist' when the area in question was open to all. I would say that encouraging them to attend Villa Park is the very opposite.
I'm currently involved in a project that will, if all goes well, make the local community feel more involved with the Villa.
I am confused as I was under the impression a section of the stadium was allocated for halal and alcohol free and you mentioned seeing a collective of asain folk?
I said it couldn't have been successful as I am not aware of the same area being used? I have no idea if there was an uptake from the people who attended, but the fact we are debating the subject I guess not.
Regarding your project. Good luck, lets hope we can all see a much improved Villa side to support it.
I haven't got a clue what you mean by that first sentence, and the second one isn't much clearer. Are you saying that it couldn't have been a success because you didn't know about it, or because we're taking about it now?
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
As for your publication, I have read several issues and I was not questioning its content, though you could consider it to make it more appealing to the wider community. I was referring to taking it into the local community. Your publication is part of many people's Villa Park experience and seeing how passionate you are about attracting more of a diverse crowd, how about giving free copies to the local community and get them to contribute just as the club have done?
Equally interesting that you consider taking peoples' cultural sensibilities into account 'seperatist' when the area in question was open to all. I would say that encouraging them to attend Villa Park is the very opposite.
I'm currently involved in a project that will, if all goes well, make the local community feel more involved with the Villa.
Care to share the project?
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
As for your publication, I have read several issues and I was not questioning its content, though you could consider it to make it more appealing to the wider community. I was referring to taking it into the local community. Your publication is part of many people's Villa Park experience and seeing how passionate you are about attracting more of a diverse crowd, how about giving free copies to the local community and get them to contribute just as the club have done?
Equally interesting that you consider taking peoples' cultural sensibilities into account 'seperatist' when the area in question was open to all. I would say that encouraging them to attend Villa Park is the very opposite.
I'm currently involved in a project that will, if all goes well, make the local community feel more involved with the Villa.
I am confused as I was under the impression a section of the stadium was allocated for halal and alcohol free and you mentioned seeing a collective of asain folk?
I said it couldn't have been successful as I am not aware of the same area being used? I have no idea if there was an uptake from the people who attended, but the fact we are debating the subject I guess not.
Regarding your project. Good luck, lets hope we can all see a much improved Villa side to support it.
I haven't got a clue what you mean by that first sentence, and the second one isn't much clearer. Are you saying that it couldn't have been a success because you didn't know about it, or because we're taking about it now?
You mentioned a game against Bolton in 2007/2008 where a section of the stadium was alcohol free and sold halal products, correct?
Refer to sentence one.
Is that said area still in operation?
You said you were not aware if the trial were successful but you see more asain people attending matches, were as I asked if that was the case?
If so then why still the debate as we have the formula already.
Refer to sentence two.
To answer your questions, I have no idea if it were a success as I couldn't give the data of the racial dynamic at Villa Park prior or post the trial. I have also stated, I knew nothing about the trial, so I would be intrigued to see more detail.
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
Who said it wasn't successful?
I vaguely recall the General saying in a reply to a question about trying to attract locals that the game being discussed was seen as not working very well, as there hadn't been an increase in local sales as a result.
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It was like that one for game only.
There was a decent smattering of Asian people attending the match there. I know this, as I was sat nearby.
If so then why still the debate as we have the formula already.
Good to see we're all agreed it was a good idea ;)
It's impossible to judge whether we'd have had more Asian fans without that trial or not, but it was a bold move by the club.
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I didn't know about that Bolton game. Interesting but I still find it separatist and seeing as it has been tried and not successful then I guess it didnt work?
Who said it wasn't successful?
I vaguely recall the General saying in a reply to a question about trying to attract locals that the game being discussed was seen as not working very well, as there hadn't been an increase in local sales as a result.
Whether that's the case or not, I don't know, but it was certainly worth trying. Bobby seemed to be a bit perturbed that we had a go.
I'm glad we did (and I say that as one who usually has next to no faith in the board at all these days).
I thought it was one of those moments when they had a genuinely good idea and tried something different. Sadly, those days don't happen too often any more.
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You mentioned a game against Bolton in 2007/2008 where a section of the stadium was alcohol free and sold halal products, correct?
Refer to sentence one.
Is that said area still in operation?
You said you were not aware if the trial were successful but you see more asain people attending matches, were as I asked if that was the case?
If so then why still the debate as we have the formula already.
Refer to sentence two.
To answer your questions, I have no idea if it were a success as I couldn't give the data of the racial dynamic at Villa Park prior or post the trial. I have also stated, I knew nothing about the trial, so I would be intrigued to see more detail.
I still haven't got much idea what you're taking about but as has been pointed out, there was a game at which initiatives that had been brought up in previous consulations with supporters were carried out. On the day they brought people to Villa Park who had probably not been there before. I would hope you agree that this is a good thing.
We're not sure whether they have returned in any great numbers but certainly since then, a section of the community has been attending in increasing numbers. I would hope that you agree this is also a good thing.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
I think everyone would agree with that winning team thing.
That doesn't mean it's not also worth trying other ways of stimulating interest in the club too, mind.
Especially when the winning team bit is proving so utterly elusive. It's a miracle we get the bodies we do get through the doors when you consider our abject home record for the last two years.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
At last!
And in response to Dave, I have said umpteen times on here its good to get as many in as we can, I just think that it doesn't sit comfortable with me if we start only encouraging certain sections of our society and the whole society.
As John Lennon once said, "there is only one race, the human race".
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Unfortunately, the new TV deal makes attendance less and less important financially in relative terms, so I think you'll see fewer such initiatives. What's the point in getting 1,000 locals in paying a tenner each on a cheap deal, when it wouldn't pay a week's salary for a youth team defender.
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People are interested when a football club is winning, not because they have an alcohol free area or they sell samosas or if they sell Halal products, to be honest. Although these are good things they are not going to bring hoardes of people through the door are they really.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
At last!
And in response to Dave, I have said umpteen times on here its good to get as many in as we can, I just think that it doesn't sit comfortable with me if we start only encouraging certain sections of our society and the whole society.
As John Lennon once said, "there is only one race, the human race".
Nobody's said we should only encourage certain sections of the community. Most of us say that we should include everyone, and take note of what it is that will encourage them to attend. Except you, for some reason.
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A couple of Asian players, however, good Asian players would change things totally. Maybe that is a way to get more of the local community really interested.
And get really into the Asian marketing side of things. Worked for some teams in the Far East, did it not ?
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
I had assumed from your username that you were a copper, which would have explained a lot.
Best in the world etc.
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A lot of this discussion seems to focus on one particular ethnic group only. With the recent influx of people from Eastern Europe to the area, why not try and attract some of them? I know it may be a bit of a generalisation, but they tend to come from countries where football is a national sport and having been to international games featuring the likes of Poland and other countries from that region, they always create a good atmosphere at games.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
At last!
And in response to Dave, I have said umpteen times on here its good to get as many in as we can, I just think that it doesn't sit comfortable with me if we start only encouraging certain sections of our society and the whole society.
As John Lennon once said, "there is only one race, the human race".
Nobody's said we should only encourage certain sections of the community. Most of us say that we should include everyone, and take note of what it is that will encourage them to attend. Except you, for some reason.
That nots true Dave, others have mentioned the enthnic mix of Aston, ala Paulwalsomethingoranother, being 80% asain. Also creating alcohol free and halal products zones is very specific.
We are going around in circles because we don't want to admit my initial and continual response is correct, forget where we are going to find 10,000 fans from to fill the empty seats until we have a competitive team. Also, we are not the only club that suffers from this situation in the UK.
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
I had assumed from your username that you were a copper, which would have explained a lot.
Best in the world etc.
What does that insinuation refer too?
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
I had assumed from your username that you were a copper, which would have explained a lot.
Best in the world etc.
What does that insinuation refer too?
I'm not arguing with someone who can't spell 'to'.
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There is a place right outside the ground selling Halal food. It has been open for two years and I have only ever seen one customer in there. I think it proves that opening Halal food outlets inside the ground, which would be at the expense of existing counters, would be a waste of time.
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A lot of this discussion seems to focus on one particular ethnic group only. With the recent influx of people from Eastern Europe to the area, why not try and attract some of them? I know it may be a bit of a generalisation, but they tend to come from countries where football is a national sport and having been to international games featuring the likes of Poland and other countries from that region, they always create a good atmosphere at games.
Don't think the Polish would be impressed with no beer in the stands and being badgered to sit down all the time.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
At last!
And in response to Dave, I have said umpteen times on here its good to get as many in as we can, I just think that it doesn't sit comfortable with me if we start only encouraging certain sections of our society and the whole society.
As John Lennon once said, "there is only one race, the human race".
Nobody's said we should only encourage certain sections of the community. Most of us say that we should include everyone, and take note of what it is that will encourage them to attend. Except you, for some reason.
That nots true Dave, others have mentioned the enthnic mix of Aston, ala Paulwalsomethingoranother, being 80% asain. Also creating alcohol free and halal products zones is very specific.
We are going around in circles because we don't want to admit my initial and continual response is correct, forget where we are going to find 10,000 fans from to fill the empty seats until we have a competitive team. Also, we are not the only club that suffers from this situation in the UK.
Anyone who says "I'm right and you're all wrong" is being a bit daft. You have proved yourself correct in no way except the ability to string together a handful of seemingly random, semi-intelligible sentences touching on such bizarre beliefs as football supporters don't have to attend matches therefore marketing is a waste of time and we only try to get one sector of the population into the ground.
Villa have had many initiatives that aren't targeted predominantly at the local Asian community. For example they subsidise buses from areas such as Solihull and Bromsgrove and go out into schools away from the immediate area. This is hardly targeting Asians, given the ethnic make-up of these areas.
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The Tickets for Schools initiative is excellent and is now further afield than the immediate vicinity.
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I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Aston Villa are not exclusive in this which should say something.
I also think the club should be doing more to get fans they have lost back and again I will state, that will only come with an improvement on the pitch.
People shouldn't be encouraged to attend Villa Park because they either want to or they don't. I wouldn't apply for any sales & marketing jobs if I wer you. And who is the 'us' in 'our culture'?
I don't need to apply for any jobs as I run my own successful company, but thank you for the thought.
I had assumed from your username that you were a copper, which would have explained a lot.
Best in the world etc.
What does that insinuation refer too?
I'm not arguing with someone who can't spell 'to'.
So you were being antagonistic?
Why some on here use this as a vessel to vent frustrations & try to gang up on others posters because they disagree with opinion is strange & stinks of frustration.
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I think Bobby's got a point though when he says that the main thing to get people in is a winning football team. I think Villa as a set of fans react very strongly to perceived effort from the board and the club as a whole, which is why we averaged 40K under O'Neill, and now have lost thousands off the gates. When you have people who consider themselves staunch Villa fans not bothering to regularly attend, it's going to be next to impossible to get locals along who don't really give a stuff in the first place.
At last!
And in response to Dave, I have said umpteen times on here its good to get as many in as we can, I just think that it doesn't sit comfortable with me if we start only encouraging certain sections of our society and the whole society.
As John Lennon once said, "there is only one race, the human race".
Nobody's said we should only encourage certain sections of the community. Most of us say that we should include everyone, and take note of what it is that will encourage them to attend. Except you, for some reason.
That nots true Dave, others have mentioned the enthnic mix of Aston, ala Paulwalsomethingoranother, being 80% asain. Also creating alcohol free and halal products zones is very specific.
We are going around in circles because we don't want to admit my initial and continual response is correct, forget where we are going to find 10,000 fans from to fill the empty seats until we have a competitive team. Also, we are not the only club that suffers from this situation in the UK.
Anyone who says "I'm right and you're all wrong" is being a bit daft. You have proved yourself correct in no way except the ability to string together a handful of seemingly random, semi-intelligible sentences touching on such bizarre beliefs as football supporters don't have to attend matches therefore marketing is a waste of time and we only try to get one sector of the population into the ground.
Villa have had many initiatives that aren't targeted predominantly at the local Asian community. For example they subsidise buses from areas such as Solihull and Bromsgrove and go out into schools away from the immediate area. This is hardly targeting Asians, given the ethnic make-up of these areas.
Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
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I think there is plenty wrong with Halal food, in particular the method of slaughter. Doesn't taste any different to me, either.
But we are on about balancing the Cultural diversity of our football fans, so this may be a way to do that. Not a fan of the slaughtering process myself but then the people who eat Halal food are not fond of the way we slaughter our animals either.
Why worry about animal rights when we can get a few more Muslims through the turnstiles?
Maybe we should just make the ground completely meat free.
I'm sure that even the more flesh dependent of you could manage to give it a miss for 90 minutes of your life.
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Why this obsession with catering? I don't think anyone's going to go to a football match because of the refreshments on offer! If people need more than a local connection to support a club, the only way to encourage them is to play good football and win things... Over to you, players and staff.
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Halal food should be avoided in the ground at all costs, as it should be in the country as a whole. There should be no place for this disgusting, cruel and barbaric practice.
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So we're agreed:
-£200 million+ spent on the team
-Jerk chicken and halal meat available at the ground
-Urdu and Polski versions of H&V
Deliver all that, and we might see an upturn in attendances?
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So we're agreed:
-£200 million+ spent on the team
-Jerk chicken and halal meat available at the ground
-Urdu and Polski versions of H&V
Deliver all that, and we might see an upturn in attendances?
YES, YES!! Have you read the previous 19 pages?
Or just point number one would be a start.
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Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
What happens if I don't admit something which is patently wrong - do you threaten to stamp your feet?
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Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
What happens if I don't admit something which is patently wrong - do you threaten to stamp your feet?
What part is wrong Dave?
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Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
What happens if I don't admit something which is patently wrong - do you threaten to stamp your feet?
What part is wrong Dave?
The words. Saying "I'm correct" doesn't make what you say right, when it clearly isn't.
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For me, the key is really a two fold approach:-
1. Give them a reason to want go
2. Remove any barriers to stop them going
Villabobby's argument is the former, while things like community programmes are the latter.
Your average Asian non-Villa fan will not start attending matches because we change catering, but then he also might not go to see a winning and entertaining team if his particular needs are not catered for.
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Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
What happens if I don't admit something which is patently wrong - do you threaten to stamp your feet?
What part is wrong Dave?
The words. Saying "I'm correct" doesn't make what you say right, when it clearly isn't.
2012/13 season average is : 33,383 (Paul Lambert)
2011/12 season average was: 33,873 (Alex McLeish)
2010/11 season average was: 37,193 (Gerard Houllier)
2009/10 season average was: 38,573 (Martin O`Neill)
2008/09 season average was: 39,811 (Martin O`Neill)
2007/08 season average was: 40,029 (Martin O`Neill)
2006/07 season average was: 36,214 (David O`Leary)
I see a trend here linked to performance.
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For me, the key is really a two fold approach:-
1. Give them a reason to want go
2. Remove any barriers to stop them going
Villabobby's argument is the former, while things like community programmes are the latter.
Your average Asian non-Villa fan will not start attending matches because we change catering, but then he also might not go to see a winning and entertaining team if his particular needs are not catered for.
Without a successful side then we cannot attract staunch Villa fans, even with cheap ticket deals, free pies, subsidised buses etc, then why would a none-Aston Villa fan be persuaded to attend Villa Park?
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Halal food should be avoided in the ground at all costs, as it should be in the country as a whole. There should be no place for this disgusting, cruel and barbaric practice.
No it's not and halal slaughter results in more hygienic meat being eaten. There is no kill that is nice. Has anyone asked the animal if being stunned before being killed is preferable?
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What was the average attendance the season we won the league in '80-'81?
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Why this obsession with catering? I don't think anyone's going to go to a football match because of the refreshments on offer!
Exactly. Never bothered me and it won't bother the locals either as there is plenty available in the vicinity of VP.
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For me, the key is really a two fold approach:-
1. Give them a reason to want go
2. Remove any barriers to stop them going
Villabobby's argument is the former, while things like community programmes are the latter.
Your average Asian non-Villa fan will not start attending matches because we change catering, but then he also might not go to see a winning and entertaining team if his particular needs are not catered for.
Without a successful side then we cannot attract staunch Villa fans, even with cheap ticket deals, free pies, subsidised buses etc, then why would a none-Aston Villa fan be persuaded to attend Villa Park?
Did you actually read my post or just decide to wade in with the same argument again?
Getting a better will attract back missing fans. Getting a better side and doing other things alongside will get new fans going.
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For me, the key is really a two fold approach:-
1. Give them a reason to want go
2. Remove any barriers to stop them going
Villabobby's argument is the former, while things like community programmes are the latter.
Your average Asian non-Villa fan will not start attending matches because we change catering, but then he also might not go to see a winning and entertaining team if his particular needs are not catered for.
Without a successful side then we cannot attract staunch Villa fans, even with cheap ticket deals, free pies, subsidised buses etc, then why would a none-Aston Villa fan be persuaded to attend Villa Park?
Did you actually read my post or just decide to wade in with the same argument again?
Getting a better will attract back missing fans. Getting a better side and doing other things alongside will get new fans going.
Getting a better what will attract missing fans?
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Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
What happens if I don't admit something which is patently wrong - do you threaten to stamp your feet?
What part is wrong Dave?
The words. Saying "I'm correct" doesn't make what you say right, when it clearly isn't.
2012/13 season average is : 33,383 (Paul Lambert)
2011/12 season average was: 33,873 (Alex McLeish)
2010/11 season average was: 37,193 (Gerard Houllier)
2009/10 season average was: 38,573 (Martin O`Neill)
2008/09 season average was: 39,811 (Martin O`Neill)
2007/08 season average was: 40,029 (Martin O`Neill)
2006/07 season average was: 36,214 (David O`Leary)
I see a trend here linked to performance.
So why did we get less in 2009-10 than two years earlier, given that we finished in exactly the same place and had the two Wembley appearances that many cite as evidence of O'Neill's success? Why were our average attendances in 1993-94 and 1995-96, the last times we won a trophy, less than they are now? Why were gates higher in 1994-95 when we were fighting relegation than two years earlier, when we almost won the league?
As CJ says above, there are many ways to increase attendances. Given that we aren't likely to be challenging for honours for some years to come, it would be the height of stupidity not to look at others.
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What was the average attendance the season we won the league in '80-'81?
Thats not relevant as if you read the previous pages they were different people (working class) than today (unsubstantiated middle class) according to other more esteemed posters on here.
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2012/13 season average is : 33,383 (Paul Lambert)
2011/12 season average was: 33,873 (Alex McLeish)
2010/11 season average was: 37,193 (Gerard Houllier)
2009/10 season average was: 38,573 (Martin O`Neill)
2008/09 season average was: 39,811 (Martin O`Neill)
2007/08 season average was: 40,029 (Martin O`Neill)
2006/07 season average was: 36,214 (David O`Leary)
I see a trend here linked to performance.
I can also see a trend here linked to economic climate.
There are a number of factors which will affect how many people go to watch a football match. The quality of the side(s) they are watching is certainly one of the most important, but to just stamp your feet and shout that it's the only thing that matters is a bit silly.
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Admit it Dave, you wont feel any less of a man, I was right, the only way to swell crowds is by having a competitive team.
Statistics back this up.
There is no statistical fact to back up your claims that local initiative's work.
What happens if I don't admit something which is patently wrong - do you threaten to stamp your feet?
What part is wrong Dave?
The words. Saying "I'm correct" doesn't make what you say right, when it clearly isn't.
2012/13 season average is : 33,383 (Paul Lambert)
2011/12 season average was: 33,873 (Alex McLeish)
2010/11 season average was: 37,193 (Gerard Houllier)
2009/10 season average was: 38,573 (Martin O`Neill)
2008/09 season average was: 39,811 (Martin O`Neill)
2007/08 season average was: 40,029 (Martin O`Neill)
2006/07 season average was: 36,214 (David O`Leary)
I see a trend here linked to performance.
So why did we get less in 2009-10 than two years earlier, given that we finished in exactly the same place and had the two Wembley appearances that many cite as evidence of O'Neill's success? Why were our average attendances in 1993-94 and 1995-96, the last times we won a trophy, less than they are now? Why were gates higher in 1994-95 when we were fighting relegation than two years earlier, when we almost won the league?
As CJ says above, there are many ways to increase attendances. Given that we aren't likely to be challenging for honours for some years to come, it would be the height of stupidity not to look at others.
A fall of over 5,000 in the average over 3 years is evidence that the continual failings of the team on the pitch result in lower crowds.
I can compare this to other teams who have prospered ala, Everton have increased crowds year on year by 3,000 & West Brom who have seen an increased by 1,000 on last year.
If you wish to take each of the other seasons you mention in isolation & compare them to the other teams in the league then you will gain a clearer picture of whether our crowds were up or down against the average.
Fact remains & I have supported with data, success on the pitch improves attendances.
I have NOT disputed initiatives are a good thing, just that they should be open to all & not just a select.
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2012/13 season average is : 33,383 (Paul Lambert)
2011/12 season average was: 33,873 (Alex McLeish)
2010/11 season average was: 37,193 (Gerard Houllier)
2009/10 season average was: 38,573 (Martin O`Neill)
2008/09 season average was: 39,811 (Martin O`Neill)
2007/08 season average was: 40,029 (Martin O`Neill)
2006/07 season average was: 36,214 (David O`Leary)
I see a trend here linked to performance.
I can also see a trend here linked to economic climate.
There are a number of factors which will affect how many people go to watch a football match. The quality of the side(s) they are watching is certainly one of the most important, but to just stamp your feet and shout that it's the only thing that matters is a bit silly.
When have I stamped my feet?
I agree the economic climate is a key driver why people will or will not attend football matches. I agree the club have tried initiatives to help with ticket pricing also. Long may that continue!!!
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To me it's a cost v product issue rather than a cultural issue. Although it should be a given that the stadium should be inclusive to everyone who wants to come.
If the tickets were handed out free we'd sell out every week regardless of how good the team was. If the dream had come true and we were playing Barcelona next week in a CL quarter final with two titles behind us already, a 50k capacity Villa Park would be full every week with the cheapest seats starting at £40 even against, say, Fulham.
So as it stands right now I think we do well to get the gates we're getting.
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I have NOT disputed initiatives are a good thing, just that they should be open to all & not just a select.
I mean that football fans usually choose to watch football matches and its not forced or created. Football is a culture within our culture and has taken generation upon generation to develop. I don't believe that can be instilled into people but has to come from time and experience.
Make your mind up. And yet again, nobody has said that these initiatives aren't just "for a select (sic)".
Fact remains & I have supported with data, success on the pitch improves attendances.
No you haven't, and has been shown time and again, no it necessarily doesn't.
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I'd just like to point out that in 06/07 Pubey was in charge, not Mr Fickle. So much for correct date.
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The weight of evidence does come down firmly against the practice of Halal slaughter. This, although admittedly a selected paragraph from Wiki, is for me, enough to ban this nonsensical archaic practice.
"In 2003, the Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), an independent advisory group, concluded that the way halal and kosher meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals. FAWC argued that cattle required up to two minutes to bleed to death when such means are employed. The Chairperson of FAWC at the time, Judy MacArthur Clark, added, "this is a major incision into the animal and to say that it doesn't suffer is quite ridiculous."
What are the world's religions afraid of? I'm quite content for my fellow humans to gain comfort from their religion, but not at the expense of routinely causing totally unnecessary pain and suffering to millions of animals.
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I'd just like to point out that in 06/07 Pubey was in charge, not Mr Fickle. So much for correct date.
I copied and pasted from another site, but I think the attendance figures are correct and highlight the rise in attendance in an improving side plateauing and then the decline in line with league position and performance.
Have any of you considering taking these ideas to Faulkner to see if he will invest in support?
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I'd just like to point out that in 06/07 Pubey was in charge, not Mr Fickle. So much for correct date.
I copied and pasted from another site, but I think the attendance figures are correct and highlight the rise in attendance in an improving side plateauing and then the decline in line with league position and performance.
Have any of you considering taking these ideas to Faulkner to see if he will invest in support?
So your claim that you are backing up what you say with data should actually read "i'm using data from another site but didn't bother to double check it"?
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Halal food should be avoided in the ground at all costs, as it should be in the country as a whole. There should be no place for this disgusting, cruel and barbaric practice.
No it's not and halal slaughter results in more hygienic meat being eaten. There is no kill that is nice. Has anyone asked the animal if being stunned before being killed is preferable?
It absolutely IS barbaric and inhumane. And the RSPCA and other bodies has done research into religious killing and concluded that halal and kosher killing without pre-stunning cause far more more pain and suffering than animals that are pre-stunned.
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I completely agree with you Martin, but could you start a new thread in OT to continue this aspect of the debate? Thanks.
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The Tickets for Schools initiative is excellent and is now further afield than the immediate vicinity.
This is an excellent initiative. I have 2 nieces who are now completely Villa fans after getting tickets and coming to the Stoke match last season.
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There is a place right outside the ground selling Halal food. It has been open for two years and I have only ever seen one customer in there. I think it proves that opening Halal food outlets inside the ground, which would be at the expense of existing counters, would be a waste of time.
However DC5 this outlet is not very good and has poor presentation and lack of selection. Nothing to do with its offering being halal.
Again, honestly, offering halal food will do zilch in terms of attracting additional supporters.
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I'd just like to point out that in 06/07 Pubey was in charge, not Mr Fickle. So much for correct date.
I copied and pasted from another site, but I think the attendance figures are correct and highlight the rise in attendance in an improving side plateauing and then the decline in line with league position and performance.
Have any of you considering taking these ideas to Faulkner to see if he will invest in support?
So your claim that you are backing up what you say with data should actually read "i'm using data from another site but didn't bother to double check it"?
You can continue to deny it but my claim that a successful side increases capacity is correct.
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Show me where I have denied it please. I'm simply pointing out your "factual" errors.
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You can continue to deny it but my claim that a successful side increases capacity is correct.
I presume you mean attendance.
I don't really think anyone is arguing that successful sides don't attract bigger crowds, so I don't really know why you're going on about it as if people are disagreeing.
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You can continue to deny it but my claim that a successful side increases capacity is correct.
Obviously.
But at the moment we aren't particularly successful are we? So any initiatives to attract fans would be welcome, yes?
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The Tickets for Schools initiative is excellent and is now further afield than the immediate vicinity.
This is an excellent initiative. I have 2 nieces who are now completely Villa fans after getting tickets and coming to the Stoke match last season.
A schools initiative (maybe with some kind of reduced rates for parents / carers bringing kids) sounds a good one.
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With each voucher, the child goes for free and the accompanying adult gets a half-price ticket.
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You can continue to deny it but my claim that a successful side increases capacity is correct.
Obviously.
But at the moment we aren't particularly successful are we? So any initiatives to attract fans would be welcome, yes?
I totally agree, I have stated that all along. I think the initiatives should be more more expansive than selected postcodes though. Luckily I can afford to buy my son a season ticket, but many of his friends at school who are football fans are not so fortunate for whatever reason.
The kids are our future & most, I know not all before the rhetoric starts again, decide to be a football fan at an early age & select their club.
My sons school & my friends schools in Great Barr / Kingstanding have not had the offer of free tickets & these are very big catchment areas which I think is a shame as the uptake would be fantastic.
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Has someone from the school actually contacted the club and asked to join?
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Has someone from the school actually contacted the club and asked to join?
I don't know to be fair. Is that what has to be done then?
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We did.
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If the club are being proactive, they shouldn't wait until schools ask.
Much is made of Sunderland's big gates despite continuously struggling, but the Mackems dish out thousands of free tickets each game. I get the argument that there needs to be a balance, that too many freebies damages value.
But we all know the games that draw less than spectacular crowds, and we all know the stands that struggle to sell out regardless of the occassion.
The benefit -as I see it- would be two fold. Firtsly, in the short-term, we do away with large swathes of empty blue seats. Cosmetic, maybe. But free tickets is not as bad for our image as empty seats m'lord.
Secondly, we're introducing the Villa to kids whose parents might not be able to afford the expense of top flight football. The genuine real match experience pisses all over watching Yanited and co on telly. Catch 'em early and catch enough of them (hopefully) for life.
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I believe the club actively target specific areas but are open to requests from the wider community. My school, for example, is in Leamore, Walsall and we have been included on the scheme which is extremely popular indeed. The people behind the initiative have provided a presence at school events and the children loved meeting Chip 'in person'.
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I have thought about this for some time.
The club marketing team needs to looking at a twenty mile radius and contacting all the schools in that area.
Firstly choosing twenty schools each time we are at home and giving them 50 tickets each so that they can 'reward' good behaviour to students, raise money with them or whatever. Yes I know it's 1000 tickets per match, but we're hardly rocking it at the moment.
Secondly, getting every school within that twenty mile radius to register every pupil from the first year up (I think they call it year 7 now). Every registered child will receive a monthly newsletter - probably electronically - and the option to buy a ticket anywhere in the ground for a fiver, for any match. For every childs ticket, an accompanying adult ticket should be made available at a discount of 50%. Yes this will have an impact on revenue, however a half empty stadium also has a huge impact on revenue.
The club will start taking players around to the schools on PR visits, doing skills days and photo opportunities.
Hopefully, with local kids seeing the SKY4 as teams that are difficult to support and get to see them (other than on a Sunday afternoon) it may sway their opinionand they start supporting their local team.
just my opinion...
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I really agree with this-
: Not bile, not anger, not money, just this http://t.co/4rJPFIqq”
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I have thought about this for some time.
The club marketing team needs to looking at a twenty mile radius and contacting all the schools in that area.
Firstly choosing twenty schools each time we are at home and giving them 50 tickets each so that they can 'reward' good behaviour to students, raise money with them or whatever. Yes I know it's 1000 tickets per match, but we're hardly rocking it at the moment.
Secondly, getting every school within that twenty mile radius to register every pupil from the first year up (I think they call it year 7 now). Every registered child will receive a monthly newsletter - probably electronically - and the option to buy a ticket anywhere in the ground for a fiver, for any match. For every childs ticket, an accompanying adult ticket should be made available at a discount of 50%. Yes this will have an impact on revenue, however a half empty stadium also has a huge impact on revenue.
The club will start taking players around to the schools on PR visits, doing skills days and photo opportunities.
Hopefully, with local kids seeing the SKY4 as teams that are difficult to support and get to see them (other than on a Sunday afternoon) it may sway their opinionand they start supporting their local team.
just my opinion...
That is a very good idea. So many families are priced out of the game nowadays that this suggestion makes perfect sense. A fantastic idea.
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Good idea. I do think the club is trying to think along these lines. However 20 miles is far too big. 3 miles or so is sufficient. The club still has to invest in this so you have to have realistic expectations.
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Good idea. I do think the club is trying to think along these lines. However 20 miles is far too big. 3 miles or so is sufficient. The club still has to invest in this so you have to have realistic expectations.
I doubt 3 miles is far enough. Kids from all over Brum should be given the opportunity to see a live game. It doesn't have to just be Villa either. The uptake will still be restricted by the ability to attend for varying reasons.
The average age of the crowd is rising and there are not enough youngsters with vigour and excitement attending football matches. Invariably they are the ones who make the most noise and will feed of songs from the Holte. In 3-5 years they will be the ones conducting the atmosphere.
Only speaking from my experience, but the aura of Villa Park with AV floodlights and the noise of the crowd had me hooked as much as the actual spectacle on the pitch.
If we could encourage 1,000 youngsters to visit Villa Park I bet at least 200 would become life long Villa fans.
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Good idea. I do think the club is trying to think along these lines. However 20 miles is far too big. 3 miles or so is sufficient. The club still has to invest in this so you have to have realistic expectations.
Three miles just about takes us to Small heath and Great Barr. I grew up in Redditch and that was getting on for 20 miles.
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Good idea. I do think the club is trying to think along these lines. However 20 miles is far too big. 3 miles or so is sufficient. The club still has to invest in this so you have to have realistic expectations.
Three miles just about takes us to Small heath and Great Barr. I grew up in Redditch and that was getting on for 20 miles.
Yep. Lots of Villa fans stretching way out into Warwickshire as well. Have a look around Leamington Spa and Warwick in the summer - you'll see Villa tops everywhere.