Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Ads on March 01, 2023, 02:02:44 PM
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Our accounts are out. A small profit made it seems.
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Aston Villa Group End of Year Accounts for the year ended May 31st 2022 showed continued investment on and off the pitch as the club consolidated its position in the Premier League.
The club invested £203.5m in the acquisition of new players in the financial year, partly financed by the club record sale of Jack Grealish to Manchester City.
The Club’s long-term strategic plan continues to be developing, recruiting and securing talented young players on long-term contracts to build asset value in our playing squad and ensure long-term sustainability.
Wages costs stayed stable at £137m, youth development expenditure rose to £13.9m from £10.8m and the Club reported a £0.4m profit before taxation.
Capital investment on infrastructure continued apace, with £7.1m invested in tangible assets including our new satellite academy at Brookvale as the club continues to focus on developing local playing talent. The complex adjacent to Villa Park will open later this year and will provide elite facilities for boys and girls.
Plans to redevelop our iconic home which include building a new North Stand and expanding our hospitality, retail and entertainment facilities were formalised by a full multidisciplinary design and engineering team during the year and approved by Birmingham City Council in December 2022.
The scheme will also transform the area around the stadium and be a catalyst for change in the neighbourhood and we are delighted that Villa Park has been shortlisted as a stadium in the UK and Ireland’s Euro 2028 bid. The Club is working closely with external stakeholders at local, regional and national level to ensure the transport system surrounding Villa Park receives the necessary upgrades to cope with an increased capacity of more than 50,000 supporters.
A timetable for demolition and rebuilding work will be announced in the coming months following full consideration of all logistical and economic factors.
The first team finished 14th in the Premier League in the financial year, three places lower than the previous campaign. This was partly responsible for a reduction in turnover for the year - £178.4m, compared to £183.6m previously.
Exceptional administrative expenses included a payment of £10m to Randolph D Lerner following the retaining of Premier League status for the third consecutive season since promotion. This payment was due as per the agreement entered into when Recon Group Ltd bought the Club in 2016 and provided that if Recon Group and its Guarantor – Jian Tong Xia – failed to pay the sum, it would fall to the Club to settle the liability.
Our Women and Girls football department continues to go from strength to strength with the first team securing their top-flight status with a comfortable ninth-placed finish. Following successful recruitment in successive transfer windows during the financial year and post balance sheet, the team currently sits in fifth place in the current WSL table.
We remain fully focused on developing our own young players via our own successful girls Academy while putting Aston Villa at the heart of the women’s game at this exciting time for the sport.
The Aston Villa Foundation continued to grow and develop during 2021-22, supporting vulnerable people and under-served communities across Birmingham. It increased its range of projects, activities and events to support people of all ages across the wellbeing, education, skills, employment and community safety sectors.
During the year, the Foundation delivered up to 500 sessions a week - doubling the amount of projects and activities on offer from pre-pandemic levels. It also provided financial and capacity building support to a network of other community groups and charities across the city, helping to support and facilitate a thriving voluntary and community sector in the city of Birmingham.
https://twitter.com/avfcofficial/status/1630931017803464704?s=46&t=4fcoDkFx5uun5j98YIpg9Q
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Is that the first time we've made a profit since the Doug days?
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Fucking hell, £10m paid to Lerner because we stayed up for a third year, which should have been paid by Xia, but obviously wasn't because he's a shit-shoed, money laundering, fraudulent crim twat.
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Interesting that there was still a £10m payment due to Randy Lerner or as Risso put it.
Fucking hell, £10m paid to Lerner because we stayed up for a third year, which should have been paid by Xia, but obviously wasn't because he's a shit-shoed, money laundering, fraudulent crim twat.
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I worked at an unnamed Big 4 accounting firm when Xia 'owned' us. The know your client information provided on the system was a gas bill for an apartment in Beijing that wasn't owned in his name. That was when I realised how bad things were.
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Quoting Tom Hardy:
You wear those big hippity-hoppity clown shoes!
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There's a big increase in youth spending which is good to see. Profit is very good news from an FFP perspective too. I think?
Feels good albeit still having mention of Randolph and Tony Shit Shoes Xia.
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Urgh. Lerner should be waving those payments considering the damage his tenure did
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How many more payments is Lerner due? What a bullet we dodged with that chancer Xia.... where is he now?
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How many more payments is Lerner due? What a bullet we dodged with that chance Xia.... where is he now?
I'm guessing that's the last one and they've mentioned it as a form of closure.
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I worked at an unnamed Big 4 accounting firm when Xia 'owned' us. The know your client information provided on the system was a gas bill for an apartment in Beijing that wasn't owned in his name. That was when I realised how bad things were.
I often wonder how was he allowed to buy us? The fit and proper persons test and/or Randy Lerner let us down very badly.
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Urgh. Lerner should be waving those payments considering the damage his tenure did
Would you waive that kind of money?
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How many more payments is Lerner due? What a bullet we dodged with that chancer Xia.... where is he now?
(Xia Jiantong) Xia has spent a bit of time in Chinese detention centres mainly for not repaying numerous loans.
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I remember £30m being mentioned around the time of the takeover, that NSWE had to pay to Lerner as Xia was unable to.
I thought that had all been paid in one go upon their purchase of the club. Still, that's the last of it now.
If our turnover is down but we've made a profit for once, what expenditure have we clawed back on?
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I remember £30m being mentioned around the time of the takeover, that NSWE had to pay to Lerner as Xia was unable to.
I thought that had all been paid in one go upon their purchase of the club. Still, that's the last of it now.
If our turnover is down but we've made a profit for once, what expenditure have we clawed back on?
I think that was paid in full at the time £30m for promotion and a further £10m once were reestablished seems reasonable given the upfront cost was pretty low for a club our size.
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I worked at an unnamed Big 4 accounting firm when Xia 'owned' us. The know your client information provided on the system was a gas bill for an apartment in Beijing that wasn't owned in his name. That was when I realised how bad things were.
I often wonder how was he allowed to buy us? The fit and proper persons test and/or Randy Lerner let us down very badly.
This is the problem when you have an owner who wants out as much as you want him out. He would have sold to the first offer that came anywhere near what he wanted.
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Urgh. Lerner should be waving those payments considering the damage his tenure did
Would you waive that kind of money?
I imagine it's owed to the family trust and not him personally anyway.
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Xia. What a c**t.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
Yes, Xia what a c*nt.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
Yes, Xia what a c*nt.
I agree.
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The club paying out the money to Randy because the person HE chose to sell to didn't have a pot to piss in.
Don't get me wrong, he's right to want his money, but selling to that absolute chancer was like one more, final dereliction of duty from Lerner.
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I worked at an unnamed Big 4 accounting firm when Xia 'owned' us. The know your client information provided on the system was a gas bill for an apartment in Beijing that wasn't owned in his name. That was when I realised how bad things were.
I often wonder how was he allowed to buy us? The fit and proper persons test and/or Randy Lerner let us down very badly.
This is the problem when you have an owner who wants out as much as you want him out. He would have sold to the first offer that came anywhere near what he wanted.
Shows how shoddy RECON were that they signed up to those payments back to Lerner if we then got back into the Premier League as well. If Lerner wanted out that badly the people buying the club should have pushed harder against things like that. Unless of course the up front asking price was reduced to compensate it.
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I worked at an unnamed Big 4 accounting firm when Xia 'owned' us. The know your client information provided on the system was a gas bill for an apartment in Beijing that wasn't owned in his name. That was when I realised how bad things were.
I often wonder how was he allowed to buy us? The fit and proper persons test and/or Randy Lerner let us down very badly.
This is the problem when you have an owner who wants out as much as you want him out. He would have sold to the first offer that came anywhere near what he wanted.
As the Blues have found out when Porno dwarf sold to a Hong Kong hairdresser - we are always classed by our local teams as being historians but i am sure it was our history and heritage that made us such an exciting project - unlike the Dog shit who have only a history of being...err...Blues
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Just doesn't sit right that the club has to pay out Lerner because his sale went bad.
And to think he liked to call himself a "custodian"
Fuck you Lerner and Fuck you too Xia.
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Lerner took a haircut on the original sale, so future-fees were understandable and sensible from his side. Like when Ty Mings playing for England triggered another clause and fee to pay Bournemouth, or Keinan Davis starts a game for us and doesn't get injured, Biggleswade Waders get a wheelbarrow of tenners.
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We are having to pay because we got promoted and he'll have missed out on that gravy train - didn't he buy us for £60m? We'd be worth what - £300m-£400m if we were sold today.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
So we can't expect to ever challenge for honours and have to remain grateful instead for them saving us, forever?
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
Yes, Xia what a c*nt.
Well said.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
So we can't expect to ever challenge for honours and have to remain grateful instead for them saving us, forever?
No Risso, it just puts things into perspective.
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There's nothing wrong with being thankful for who we have owning us.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
So we can't expect to ever challenge for honours and have to remain grateful instead for them saving us, forever?
No Risso, it just puts things into perspective.
They still didn't spend enough in January.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
So we can't expect to ever challenge for honours and have to remain grateful instead for them saving us, forever?
No Risso, it just puts things into perspective.
They still didn't spend enough in January.
They really should sell up. Its not good enough.
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They really should sell up. Its not good enough.
Here he is, Captain Capdoffer, servile to the bitter end.
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I'm not going to get my knickers in a constant twist because they couldn't get every player Emery might have wanted in his first transfer window. I'll leave that to you.
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They really should sell up. Its not good enough.
Here he is, Captain Capdoffer, servile to the bitter end.
Less of that. You can both take a step back.
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Just doesn't sit right that the club has to pay out Lerner because his sale went bad.
And to think he liked to call himself a "custodian"
Fuck you Lerner and Fuck you too Xia.
He lost at least £200 million. He's hardly stitched us up.
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Just doesn't sit right that the club has to pay out Lerner because his sale went bad.
And to think he liked to call himself a "custodian"
Fuck you Lerner and Fuck you too Xia.
He lost at least £200 million. He's hardly stitched us up.
It's also very common in business for there to be extras payable if certain thresholds are met, eg paying more for land if it gets awarded planning permission, etc. These stipulations on promotion etc were obviously in the company, and when you buy the company you buy the assets AND liabilities.
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Just doesn't sit right that the club has to pay out Lerner because his sale went bad.
And to think he liked to call himself a "custodian"
Fuck you Lerner and Fuck you too Xia.
He lost at least £200 million. He's hardly stitched us up.
It's also very common in business for there to be extras payable if certain thresholds are met, eg paying more for land if it gets awarded planning permission, etc. These stipulations on promotion etc were obviously in the company, and when you buy the company you buy the assets AND liabilities.
And I doubt when NSWE bought us that they thought for a minute that Xia would pay.
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I am sure NSWE knew at the time of transaction about any obligations and no we don’t need to be grateful to them for buying us. They are money makers and paid next to nothing and now have an asset worth close to a billion. So whatever they have paid for us they are quids.
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I think if some fans are grateful, then that's absoutley fine.
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I'm not going to get my knickers in a constant twist because they couldn't get every player Emery might have wanted in his first transfer window. I'll leave that to you.
Or actually get one player that Emery really wanted.
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I'm not going to get my knickers in a constant twist because they couldn't get every player Emery might have wanted in his first transfer window. I'll leave that to you.
Or actually get one player that Emery really wanted.
I presume he wanted Moreno. He does seem like a player Emery would have known a lot about from his time in Spain.
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I think if some fans are grateful, then that's absoutley fine.
Yes as I said we don’t NEED to be.
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And I doubt when NSWE bought us that they thought for a minute that Xia would pay.
Quite right, absolutely no chance. In any case, it's only payable because we got promoted and have stayed up, thus making the club many times more valuable.
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what expenditure have we clawed back on?
Half-time pints.
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what expenditure have we clawed back on?
Half-time pints.
I heard leftover balti pies are being used as part of staff wages😳
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Bloody hell I haven’t been able to surf all day and I come on a thread dedicated to the club accounts and there’s nary a sniff of balance sheets, profit and loss, EBiTDA, FFP implications, commercial performance and a detailed breakdown of player trading and amortisation implications. All we’ve had is a damning indictment of Xia and Lerner.
What became of this once great site.
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What became of this once great site.
Too early to write it off yet.
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Bloody hell I haven’t been able to surf all day and I come on a thread dedicated to the club accounts and there’s nary a sniff of balance sheets, profit and loss, EBiTDA, FFP implications, commercial performance and a detailed breakdown of player trading and amortisation implications. All we’ve had is a damning indictment of Xia and Lerner.
What became of this once great site.
The actual figures aren't showing on Companies House yet, so you'll have to wait a couple of day for amortisation chat.
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Reduced revenue, not particularly good seeing as football is booming and prices has gone up again.
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Xia. What a c**t.
We should get that on one of those banners
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Bloody hell I haven’t been able to surf all day and I come on a thread dedicated to the club accounts and there’s nary a sniff of balance sheets, profit and loss, EBiTDA, FFP implications, commercial performance and a detailed breakdown of player trading and amortisation implications. All we’ve had is a damning indictment of Xia and Lerner.
What became of this once great site.
The actual figures aren't showing on Companies House yet, so you'll have to wait a couple of day for amortisation chat.
I’ll get me coat.
But to get it in early I’m rather surprised/alarmed/furious/worried that the Turnover figs have gone backwards. I’m expecting yet another dismal commercial performance outside the TV money we get. #PurslowOut
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It's something like £2.6m for each league place, so finishing 3 places lower than the previous season means it dropped rather than went up a bit.
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Our current owners really sorted us out. Next time someone complains about not spending enough on players, just remember, we may not have been here at all if they hadn't have come in.
So we can't expect to ever challenge for honours and have to remain grateful instead for them saving us, forever?
No Risso, it just puts things into perspective.
They still didn't spend enough in January.
I think they would have done if the players we wanted were readily available. My guess is they wasn’t, so they decided to wait.
Unai must have been promised funds otherwise there’s no way he would be here.
We’ll know more in the Summer if that’s a correct assumption
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How many clubs can post a profit, not matter how small?
That’s miraculous in this day and age, surely?
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
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And I doubt when NSWE bought us that they thought for a minute that Xia would pay.
Quite right, absolutely no chance. In any case, it's only payable because we got promoted and have stayed up, thus making the club many times more valuable.
Of course Lerner's mismanagement got us relegated in the first place.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
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It's total income, but that graph doesn't strike me as accurate when it has Newcastle 17m behind Southampton.
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I just dont see anyway Man City's income can be more than Liverpool or Man Utd legally. Personally, I think my gut feel alone is enough to relegate them to the championship
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
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It's total income, but that graph doesn't strike me as accurate when it has Newcastle 17m behind Southampton.
It is from Keiran Maguire, who tends to know this stuff.
EDIT - I guess with different financial years, theirs might cover covid season.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It isn't creative accountancy - the money has to be there to be spent.
What is creative is some of the shit they indulge in like the Emptihad being by far the most expensive stadium naming rights ever. And the range of other AD companies as 'official toilet paper sponsor' or whatever.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
I'm doing my bit. Just spent 75 quid on the Villa this afternoon on a sale Fanatics/Kitbag are having. Would be better for the club if I bought it all through the official store of course but I wouldn't have spent anything if the third-party retailer didn't have a sale on.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It isn't creative accountancy - the money has to be there to be spent.
What is creative is some of the shit they indulge in like the Emptihad being by far the most expensive stadium naming rights ever. And the range of other AD companies as 'official toilet paper sponsor' or whatever.
I would have thought halving Mancini’s annual yearly salary and saying the other half was for a day’s work at some satellite set up and thus not in scope in FFP for them is creative accountancy, no?
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Wolves, Wolverhampton, capacity 11k lower than ours.
Leicester, capacity 10k lower than ours. There's no way there turnover is 20% higher than ours.
What seasons are these based on? I'd imagine both turnovers are being inflated by fakeish sponsorship deals etc by their owners to pump money in to the club.
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Depends what year it is. Leicester finished 5th, won the FA Cup and had Europe 2 years ago, that's a good chunk of prize and TV money over us, or last season they were 6 places above us and had a number of European games as they got to the SF of the ECL, so same again. So easy to believe they had a higher income than us those 2 seasons.
Wolves, less likely.
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That looks like it's for 20/21 seeing as the accounts for us this year mention turnover of £184m from the previous accounts, Leeds included as well.
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We had to sell our best player for £100 million to make a small profit
I read elsewhere that Tottenham made a £112 million profit, we just cannot compete with the top 4/6 sides.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It’s not creative accountancy it’s signing up marketing deals with related parties, nothing creative about it at all.
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Having a relative working at City Football Group I can safely say they are 10 years ahead of us in commercial terms, they have a lot of investments and have developed themselves into a global brand attracting global sponsors. Their turnover is more than others because they are run like a business end of.
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I was at the Etihad for our game recently, and everything they do is really slick and perfectly executed. As one small example, when the players arrive, the coach pulls up into a reserved area outside, with a load of music and blue smoke etc. They then walk down a blue carpet, signing autographs and high-fiving the kids. They then walk into a hospitality area called the tunnel club, where they walk through the fans and again pose for photos etc. Prices in there are obviously astronomical, but even though it's staged and corporate as hell, I have to say it's really impressive. Compare that to the recent thread on here, where the answer to when the coach arrives is "well, sometimes it's about 2 hours before, but the players all have massive headphones on and just slink into the ground."
When you can't even buy a drink at half time in most areas of Villa Park, you realise just how far behind the times we are. Hopefully the upgrade to the North Stand will help to get things slightly more up to date, but you're then still left with three stands with outdated facilities.
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To be fair, the players used to arrive in their own cars and stop for photos and autographs so I'm not sure which manager (Gérrard or Emery) made the change to bring them in via coach. It's a shame for the young un's like I said.
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I was at the Etihad for our game recently, and everything they do is really slick and perfectly executed. As one small example, when the players arrive, the coach pulls up into a reserved area outside, with a load of music and blue smoke etc. They then walk down a blue carpet, signing autographs and high-fiving the kids. They then walk into a hospitality area called the tunnel club, where they walk through the fans and again pose for photos etc. Prices in there are obviously astronomical, but even though it's staged and corporate as hell, I have to say it's really impressive. Compare that to the recent thread on here, where the answer to when the coach arrives is "well, sometimes it's about 2 hours before, but the players all have massive headphones on and just slink into the ground."
When you can't even buy a drink at half time in most areas of Villa Park, you realise just how far behind the times we are. Hopefully the upgrade to the North Stand will help to get things slightly more up to date, but you're then still left with three stands with outdated facilities.
The Trinity Road stand is being updated and concourses extended at the same time as the North Stand rebuild, and Witton Lane will be worked on in the next phase. The facilities in the lower Holte at least are much better since the work over Christmas and new year as well. Hopefully it will all add up to a much better service experience whilst still playing at a place that is recognisably Villa Park and not some bland, corporate bowl.
Even so, at the end of the day, Man City aren't the club with the highest turnover in England because of the tunnel club and fanzone - it's because they have systematically attempted to circumnavigate the rules with 'related party' sponsorships and shady payment deals with players and staff, which are now under investigation.
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Having a relative working at City Football Group I can safely say they are 10 years ahead of us in commercial terms, they have a lot of investments and have developed themselves into a global brand attracting global sponsors. Their turnover is more than others because they are run like a business end of.
Yes as Risso says below they are a very slick operation but the huge levels of revenue is not being generated from legitimate sources, these are related entities who are paying massively over the commercial rates.
Without this they would be significantly behind Liverpool and Manure, both of which have a global fan base.
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I was at the Etihad for our game recently, and everything they do is really slick and perfectly executed. As one small example, when the players arrive, the coach pulls up into a reserved area outside, with a load of music and blue smoke etc. They then walk down a blue carpet, signing autographs and high-fiving the kids. They then walk into a hospitality area called the tunnel club, where they walk through the fans and again pose for photos etc. Prices in there are obviously astronomical, but even though it's staged and corporate as hell, I have to say it's really impressive. Compare that to the recent thread on here, where the answer to when the coach arrives is "well, sometimes it's about 2 hours before, but the players all have massive headphones on and just slink into the ground."
When you can't even buy a drink at half time in most areas of Villa Park, you realise just how far behind the times we are. Hopefully the upgrade to the North Stand will help to get things slightly more up to date, but you're then still left with three stands with outdated facilities.
My lad went on a tour of the Etihad. The tunnel club allows you to watch the players from the other side of a glass partition as they walk out. He was very impressed. The prices vary from game to game, so £199 plus VAT v Burnley in the cup to £1,628 v Arsenal - plus VAT of course.
By comparison we provide a "directors lounge" as our premium corporate package. Prices are not readily available and, as you say Risso, none of the razzmatazz they may attract the corporate type.
I am still not convinced that Citeh are commercially the biggest in the world, and from the emails disclosed recently there might possibly have been some "shenanigans" going on. I would have thought that world wide the commercial pull of Liverpool, Yanited, Barca and Real Madrid would be ahead, but they have taken a new stadium and are maximising it. The commercialisation of the North Stand is our first real attempt to move forward in this field for a long time.
Someone suggested that we may need to move sites to really make the grade, but perhaps initially at least we can market our "heritage" rather than just with a passing nod [see the lamp post and McGregor statute for example]. Where's the draw to the ground other than on a match day? Let's hope they get the redevelopment right. Perhaps put the shop in the ground itself, freeing up all of that space.
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Bloody hell I haven’t been able to surf all day and I come on a thread dedicated to the club accounts and there’s nary a sniff of balance sheets, profit and loss, EBiTDA, FFP implications, commercial performance and a detailed breakdown of player trading and amortisation implications. All we’ve had is a damning indictment of Xia and Lerner.
What became of this once great site.
The actual figures aren't showing on Companies House yet, so you'll have to wait a couple of day for amortisation chat.
....and the Lerner money is basically contingent consideration.
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Bloody hell I haven’t been able to surf all day and I come on a thread dedicated to the club accounts and there’s nary a sniff of balance sheets, profit and loss, EBiTDA, FFP implications, commercial performance and a detailed breakdown of player trading and amortisation implications. All we’ve had is a damning indictment of Xia and Lerner.
What became of this once great site.
The actual figures aren't showing on Companies House yet, so you'll have to wait a couple of day for amortisation chat.
....and the Lerner money is basically contingent consideration.
do you mean a contingent liability? If it has now been paid it is an expense to the P&L Account.
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My lad went on a tour of the Etihad. The tunnel club allows you to watch the players from the other side of a glass partition as they walk out. He was very impressed. The prices vary from game to game, so £199 plus VAT v Burnley in the cup to £1,628 v Arsenal - plus VAT of course.
This type of hospitality is pretty common in the new US stadiums and I think will be built into the new Trinity Stand (about 1/3 of it is being redeveloped) with the seats behind the dugout being part of the "close to the action" experience.
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Some Villa fans would pay a fortune to be able to sit in our 'dug out' during a match.
Be more productive then naming two goalkeepers as substitutes.
Just a thought.
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I was at the Etihad for our game recently, and everything they do is really slick and perfectly executed. As one small example, when the players arrive, the coach pulls up into a reserved area outside, with a load of music and blue smoke etc. They then walk down a blue carpet, signing autographs and high-fiving the kids. They then walk into a hospitality area called the tunnel club, where they walk through the fans and again pose for photos etc. Prices in there are obviously astronomical, but even though it's staged and corporate as hell, I have to say it's really impressive. Compare that to the recent thread on here, where the answer to when the coach arrives is "well, sometimes it's about 2 hours before, but the players all have massive headphones on and just slink into the ground."
When you can't even buy a drink at half time in most areas of Villa Park, you realise just how far behind the times we are. Hopefully the upgrade to the North Stand will help to get things slightly more up to date, but you're then still left with three stands with outdated facilities.
My lad went on a tour of the Etihad. The tunnel club allows you to watch the players from the other side of a glass partition as they walk out. He was very impressed. The prices vary from game to game, so £199 plus VAT v Burnley in the cup to £1,628 v Arsenal - plus VAT of course.
By comparison we provide a "directors lounge" as our premium corporate package. Prices are not readily available and, as you say Risso, none of the razzmatazz they may attract the corporate type.
I am still not convinced that Citeh are commercially the biggest in the world, and from the emails disclosed recently there might possibly have been some "shenanigans" going on. I would have thought that world wide the commercial pull of Liverpool, Yanited, Barca and Real Madrid would be ahead, but they have taken a new stadium and are maximising it. The commercialisation of the North Stand is our first real attempt to move forward in this field for a long time.
Someone suggested that we may need to move sites to really make the grade, but perhaps initially at least we can market our "heritage" rather than just with a passing nod [see the lamp post and McGregor statute for example]. Where's the draw to the ground other than on a match day? Let's hope they get the redevelopment right. Perhaps put the shop in the ground itself, freeing up all of that space.
I've experienced it thanks to the genorosity of the man you're quoting. It may not have the razzamatazz of other 'experiences' but it sure as shit makes a terrible performance a lot easier to swallow.
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I was at the Etihad for our game recently, and everything they do is really slick and perfectly executed. As one small example, when the players arrive, the coach pulls up into a reserved area outside, with a load of music and blue smoke etc. They then walk down a blue carpet, signing autographs and high-fiving the kids. They then walk into a hospitality area called the tunnel club, where they walk through the fans and again pose for photos etc. Prices in there are obviously astronomical, but even though it's staged and corporate as hell, I have to say it's really impressive. Compare that to the recent thread on here, where the answer to when the coach arrives is "well, sometimes it's about 2 hours before, but the players all have massive headphones on and just slink into the ground."
When you can't even buy a drink at half time in most areas of Villa Park, you realise just how far behind the times we are. Hopefully the upgrade to the North Stand will help to get things slightly more up to date, but you're then still left with three stands with outdated facilities.
My lad went on a tour of the Etihad. The tunnel club allows you to watch the players from the other side of a glass partition as they walk out. He was very impressed. The prices vary from game to game, so £199 plus VAT v Burnley in the cup to £1,628 v Arsenal - plus VAT of course.
The fans aren't behind glass, they just rope off the bit they walk through, but you can still sjhke hands with the players as they walk through. There's a host who announces all the players as they walk down, all very slick. At Villa, it's usually the same few old players, ie Tony Daley and Shaun Teale, every other week giving their score predictions, and that's it.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It’s not creative accountancy it’s signing up marketing deals with related parties, nothing creative about it at all.
What would you class Mancini’s salary payment allocation as?
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When you can't even buy a drink at half time in most areas of Villa Park, you realise just how far behind the times we are. Hopefully the upgrade to the North Stand will help to get things slightly more up to date, but you're then still left with three stands with outdated facilities.
When I was up there for the last game of last season, I went to get a pint at half time and was served immediately. I was so surprised that I honestly thought I might have pushed into the front of the queue or something, I was looking around for someone to pull me up about it. Very slick service - so quick that I drank my pint and went up and ordered another, getting served just as quickly as the first time
You could grow a beard, waiting to be served in the Lower North.
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Have a look at BHX on a weekend where Liverpool or Manchester United are at home and you'll see loads of Irish supporters who fly here because it's cheaper to come here then hire a car than it is to fly there direct. You don't get that for Manchester City.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It’s not creative accountancy it’s signing up marketing deals with related parties, nothing creative about it at all.
What would you class Mancini’s salary payment allocation as?
An expense. That won't have any bearing on their income, even if it is dodgy
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I always find myself looking at this thread each year and thinking how small football clubs are as businesses compared to their size in the public’s consciousness. It weirds me out a bit to be honest.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It’s not creative accountancy it’s signing up marketing deals with related parties, nothing creative about it at all.
What would you class Mancini’s salary payment allocation as?
An expense. That won't have any bearing on their income, even if it is dodgy
Is it because the table is showing turnover only, not any spend?
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I just dont see anyway Man City's income can be more than Liverpool or Man Utd legally. Personally, I think my gut feel alone is enough to relegate them to the championship
When Abu Dhabi State Airline (owned by the same authority as the club) sponsors you untold sums for stadium naming rights and pays you well over the odds for shirt name it is understandable that their income is so high.
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Give me meeting our European Cup winners any day rather than shaking hands with millionaire footballers playing for a club currently under investigation and bollocks to blue smoke.
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Give me meeting our European Cup winners any day rather than shaking hands with millionaire footballers playing for a club currently under investigation and bollocks to blue smoke.
You're obviously speaking as a Villa fan, and I assume a middle aged one at that. The (mostly younger) City fans there absolutely loved it.
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I always find myself looking at this thread each year and thinking how small football clubs are as businesses compared to their size in the public’s consciousness. It weirds me out a bit to be honest.
It wasn't many years ago that Villa's turnover was lower than Asda at One Stop.
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I always find myself looking at this thread each year and thinking how small football clubs are as businesses compared to their size in the public’s consciousness. It weirds me out a bit to be honest.
Yup. It’s mind boggling that a business earning around £400M (Chelsea) a year can be solid for circa £3 billion. That’s lot of money for mostly perishable (players) assets.
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I always find myself looking at this thread each year and thinking how small football clubs are as businesses compared to their size in the public’s consciousness. It weirds me out a bit to be honest.
Yup. It’s mind boggling that a business earning around £400M (Chelsea) a year can be solid for circa £3 billion. That’s lot of money for mostly perishable (players) assets.
They're mainly bought as capital assets though, with an eye on the upside if things like the European Super League comes to pass.
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I saw some figures today that showed our turnover lower than that of the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and .... fucking Wolves (last year's figures obvs).
Spurs more than 2.5x ours,
We've underperformed in this sense for years now, it needs to change. Commercial revenue is a big part of that.
In fact, here's the chart.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FqHqtvTX0AMyFgs?format=png&name=900x900)
Also interesting to see that we're not turning over hugely more than the likes of Southampton and Brighton.
That's another part of being a 'big club' where we need to get our act together ASAP.
No way on earth Man Cities commerical revenue is bigger than Liverpool or Man City in real terms.
It’s probably the same ‘creative’ accountancy that they’ve demonstrated since their current owners came in.
It’s not creative accountancy it’s signing up marketing deals with related parties, nothing creative about it at all.
What would you class Mancini’s salary payment allocation as?
Again not creative accounting.
There are few ways of describing the Mancini payments, being kind -sheltering (often used by offshore tax advisors), or tax avoidance to very unkind and maybe accurate -deception.
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Alan Wright and Michael Oakes are booked for a Q&A after one of the Villa Park tours in April!
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More money than sense if your paying nearly 2k to shake Kyle Walkers hand and watch a few thousand passes and the 49th win in 50 home games. Sounds boring as fuck. I'd rather pay £40, sit behind moaning Pete who really has it in for Bailey, get no beer because the kiosk kids don't know what to do, get angry as the defense piss around at the back and concede a comedy goal, lose for the 3rd match in a row and go back to the pub and debate who needs dropping and how much better Coutinho has got since he's not been playing.
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Alan Wright and Michael Oakes are booked for a Q&A after one of the Villa Park tours in April!
"Alan, can I ask you, why are you so weird, is it because you're bald or small, or both?"
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Give me meeting our European Cup winners any day rather than shaking hands with millionaire footballers playing for a club currently under investigation and bollocks to blue smoke.
You're obviously speaking as a Villa fan, and I assume a middle aged one at that. The (mostly younger) City fans there absolutely loved it.
We need to stop dining out on the European Cup win, too.
It was 40 years ago. Four entire decades.
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Have a look at BHX on a weekend where Liverpool or Manchester United are at home and you'll see loads of Irish supporters who fly here because it's cheaper to come here then hire a car than it is to fly there direct. You don't get that for Manchester City.
In my last job, I worked on sports related projects with mobile networks and other large companies, all over Africa.
On the (endless, and always with at least 10 people from their side, which I think must be a cultural thing) calls we'd have with them, we'd pretty much always have chit-chat about football.
What was noticeable was that almost every single one of them had a Premier League team they supported.
I'd say 50% of them supported Liverpool, 30% Man United, 10% Arsenal and then a mish mash of other teams for the rest.
I never came across any of them supporting Man City, not a single one. Man City are a rich club for the rest of the world, not a big one.
There's a reason Liverpool are so keen on ending the collective sale and sharing of overseas revenue.
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Last year, when I had a little spare time, I downloaded all our accounts from 1998 to 2021 because I was interested to see what we turned over on Matchdays and for Commercial, and to see the trends. To be honest, I was shocked at the desperately poor growth. Our total revenue is way behind some of the other Premier League clubs - including some that we regard as 'smaller' than us.
When you look at the detail, our matchday revenue averages £15,300,000 over the 17 years since 2005, with a high of £24,700,000 (in 2010). Spurrrrs apparently earn £800k per game just on their catering activities.
Our commercial revenue since 2005 has averaged £11,400,000 (peaking at 16,200,000 in 2015).
Why have we been so incredibly crap during a time of 'golden years'? - obviously, relegation did not help, and the changes in ownership haven't benefitted either. But the overarching message is pretty rubbish.
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Said this before, but largely flat commercial revenue in an era where we had almost constant membership of an industry which had a licence to print money is absolutely shocking.
Then you read things about people being unable to buy food and drinks, and think how we were having these exact same discussions on here 10 or 15 years ago, and have had three different ownerships in that time who all promised to fix it but have failed to do so, and you start to understand why it is that way.
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Some Villa fans would pay a fortune to be able to sit in our 'dug out' during a match.
Be more productive then naming two goalkeepers as substitutes.
Especially if one of them was Olsen.
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Premium package: Villa fan gets to sit on the bench as an unused sub during the game - £1k
Marble package: Same. But Olsen has to play marbles on the M6 at the same time - £2k
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We're like the opposite of a business on matchday. It's nigh-on impossible to give them any money.
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Have a look at BHX on a weekend where Liverpool or Manchester United are at home and you'll see loads of Irish supporters who fly here because it's cheaper to come here then hire a car than it is to fly there direct. You don't get that for Manchester City.
In my last job, I worked on sports related projects with mobile networks and other large companies, all over Africa.
On the (endless, and always with at least 10 people from their side, which I think must be a cultural thing) calls we'd have with them, we'd pretty much always have chit-chat about football.
What was noticeable was that almost every single one of them had a Premier League team they supported.
I'd say 50% of them supported Liverpool, 30% Man United, 10% Arsenal and then a mish mash of other teams for the rest.
I never came across any of them supporting Man City, not a single one. Man City are a rich club for the rest of the world, not a big one.
There's a reason Liverpool are so keen on ending the collective sale and sharing of overseas revenue.
At a very rough estimate I'd say BHX in the summer is Liverpool, Villa, Manchester United, Wolves, Small Heath, Stripeys, Coventry. You never see Manchester City.
Matchday is Villa, Liverpool, Manchester United, Wolves and the rest are a rarity.
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The only Man City fans I know in Ireland live on the neighbouring farm. No Mancunian connection but the Dad has supported them since the mid-70s, one son is Citeh and the other Arsenal. In contrast it's not unusual to see a random Villa shirt even in the local village.
In Cayman there are more Bristol City fans than Man City, never mind the bigger teams. I've also worked with and know quite a few African lads there. Main thing I've noticed was that the Kenyans were mainly Man U with a smattering of Arsenal and pretty much all the Zimbabweans were big Chelsea fans. Age wise they're in the 35-45 range and I seem to recall them saying that Babayaro was a big factor in them choosing Chelsea. Again, no Man City fans as PW mentioned.
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Have a look at BHX on a weekend where Liverpool or Manchester United are at home and you'll see loads of Irish supporters who fly here because it's cheaper to come here then hire a car than it is to fly there direct. You don't get that for Manchester City.
In my last job, I worked on sports related projects with mobile networks and other large companies, all over Africa.
On the (endless, and always with at least 10 people from their side, which I think must be a cultural thing) calls we'd have with them, we'd pretty much always have chit-chat about football.
What was noticeable was that almost every single one of them had a Premier League team they supported.
I'd say 50% of them supported Liverpool, 30% Man United, 10% Arsenal and then a mish mash of other teams for the rest.
I never came across any of them supporting Man City, not a single one. Man City are a rich club for the rest of the world, not a big one.
There's a reason Liverpool are so keen on ending the collective sale and sharing of overseas revenue.
At a very rough estimate I'd say BHX in the summer is Liverpool, Villa, Manchester United, Wolves, Small Heath, Stripeys, Coventry. You never see Manchester City.
Matchday is Villa, Liverpool, Manchester United, Wolves and the rest are a rarity.
I always imagine us having tons of Irish fans coming across for our home games, but I suspect my world view is stuck in the 90s when there was more reason for them to do so.
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Imagine an accountant being creative, lol
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Looking at the accounts one figure jumps out:
Turnover: £178.4m, compare it to:
Man City £571m
Liverpool £487m
Man Utd £494m
Chelsea £481m
Spurs £442m
Arsenal £367m
Bearing in mind that you can't spend what you don't earn, on a very simplistic basis, this means the "Big 6" had between two and three times to lay out on wages and transfers than we did.
Sonething to point out to the naysayers and moaners?
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Imagine an accountant being creative, lol
Risso is an accountant but also a published novelist and accomplished painter who has had a show at the V&A.
TRUFACT.
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Yeah when I pressed Post I did remember Risso doing a good post the other day. Exception that proves the rule.
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Thankfully I haven't had to do any proper accountancy in about 15 years.
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There you go, case closed.
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Have a look at BHX on a weekend where Liverpool or Manchester United are at home and you'll see loads of Irish supporters who fly here because it's cheaper to come here then hire a car than it is to fly there direct. You don't get that for Manchester City.
In my last job, I worked on sports related projects with mobile networks and other large companies, all over Africa.
On the (endless, and always with at least 10 people from their side, which I think must be a cultural thing) calls we'd have with them, we'd pretty much always have chit-chat about football.
What was noticeable was that almost every single one of them had a Premier League team they supported.
I'd say 50% of them supported Liverpool, 30% Man United, 10% Arsenal and then a mish mash of other teams for the rest.
I never came across any of them supporting Man City, not a single one. Man City are a rich club for the rest of the world, not a big one.
There's a reason Liverpool are so keen on ending the collective sale and sharing of overseas revenue.
At a very rough estimate I'd say BHX in the summer is Liverpool, Villa, Manchester United, Wolves, Small Heath, Stripeys, Coventry. You never see Manchester City.
Matchday is Villa, Liverpool, Manchester United, Wolves and the rest are a rarity.
I always imagine us having tons of Irish fans coming across for our home games, but I suspect my world view is stuck in the 90s when there was more reason for them to do so.
There's a few but nowhere near as many as there should be.
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Back in the 90's we had three of more prominent members of the Irish national team in our ranks. Ireland hasn't been as strong as they were back then and the players they have produced or could qualify for them haven't been anything close to that level. That and we were much more relevant in top level football discussions. So naturally Irish fans growing up in the past 20 years have no connection to us. Liverpool, Man U, even Everton have had current Irish internationals or are just more fashionable. We've been mostly shit and our best Irish players in that time was Given, Dunne and Stephen Fucking Ireland. And a cameo by Robbie Keane.
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Quite interested our wage bill remained stable.
Obviously Grealish would've been on 100k + comfortably by the time he left us but Ings would've been pushing for not far off that and Bailey and Buendia at 30m apiece would be on wages befitting those valuations 70-80k if not more.
Even Young coming back on a free would be commanding a decent amount given all he's won since he left us.
I presume in 12 months you'll see a substantial rise up past 150m given what we've signed under Gerrard.
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I always find myself looking at this thread each year and thinking how small football clubs are as businesses compared to their size in the public’s consciousness. It weirds me out a bit to be honest.
It wasn't many years ago that Villa's turnover was lower than Asda at One Stop.
Anything to do with having an owner who ran it like a small travel agency on a local high street?
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Imagine an accountant being creative, lol
Risso is an accountant but also a published novelist and accomplished painter who has had a show at the V&A.
TRUFACT.
Impressive.
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Looking at the accounts one figure jumps out:
Turnover: £178.4m, compare it to:
Man City £571m
Liverpool £487m
Man Utd £494m
Chelsea £481m
Spurs £442m
Arsenal £367m
Bearing in mind that you can't spend what you don't earn, on a very simplistic basis, this means the "Big 6" had between two and three times to lay out on wages and transfers than we did.
Sonething to point out to the naysayers and moaners?
Oh no, it’s a tedious naysayers and moaners retort.
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Give me meeting our European Cup winners any day rather than shaking hands with millionaire footballers playing for a club currently under investigation and bollocks to blue smoke.
You're obviously speaking as a Villa fan, and I assume a middle aged one at that. The (mostly younger) City fans there absolutely loved it.
We need to stop dining out on the European Cup win, too.
It was 40 years ago. Four entire decades.
Yes. I really really hope we will not celebrate 50 without any further European and Domestic trophies.
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Give me meeting our European Cup winners any day rather than shaking hands with millionaire footballers playing for a club currently under investigation and bollocks to blue smoke.
You're obviously speaking as a Villa fan, and I assume a middle aged one at that. The (mostly younger) City fans there absolutely loved it.
We need to stop dining out on the European Cup win, too.
It was 40 years ago. Four entire decades.
Yes. I really really hope we will not celebrate 50 without any further European and Domestic trophies.
I dunno, Risso's tale of the Etihad horrified and depressed me in equal measure. Sounds like Alton Towers, not football.
If that's the way things are going (and I have no doubt it is) I suspect if we ever win anything again, I will have long since stopped bothering.
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A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone who said what a great ground the Nou Camp was and how Molineux was shit because his kids said the carpets in the box they were in were starting to fray. And I thought what a soulless life that must be, to bring going to the match when you're a young lad down to the level of soft furnishings.
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A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone who said what a great ground the Nou Camp was and how Molineux was shit because his kids said the carpets in the box they were in were starting to fray. And I thought what a soulless life that must be, to bring going to the match when you're a young lad down to the level of soft furnishings.
Tragic (it being Molineux aside...)
My first couple of games, I loved because I was there with my Dad. That was enough. Then the atmosphere got me. I always thought that when you've stood in the cold with 40-odd thousand strangers, all willing for the same thing, you can't undo that feeling of solidarity.
Yeah the ground and facilities should be as good as we can make them, but fuck me, if the next generation of football fans have so little invested in their local clubs that they are genuinely swayed by such trivial nonsense, I'm going to hate them even more than I do my own.
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A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone who said what a great ground the Nou Camp was and how Molineux was shit because his kids said the carpets in the box they were in were starting to fray. And I thought what a soulless life that must be, to bring going to the match when you're a young lad down to the level of soft furnishings.
Tragic (it being Molineux aside...)
My first couple of games, I loved because I was there with my Dad. That was enough. Then the atmosphere got me. I always thought that when you've stood in the cold with 40-odd thousand strangers, all willing for the same thing, you can't undo that feeling of solidarity.
Yeah the ground and facilities should be as good as we can make them, but fuck me, if the next generation of football fans have so little invested in their local clubs that they are genuinely swayed by such trivial nonsense, I'm going to hate them even more than I do my own.
Ive posted about this in the ‘what time do players arrive’ thread. I think improvements to pre match and during match facilities have to be improved upon as they have been a bit shite to be fair and we can’t pretend having a drink, food etc, shouldn’t be a painless process as it should be. Likewise, having some pre match entertainment for the kids in particular, can’t be a bad thing.
However, I completely agree that if it comes down to the sanitised corporate experience of claret and blue carpets and smoke, to engage the kids, or the kids from wealthy enough families to enter whatever exclusive fanzone thats been created, then i despair as well.
I know im a middle aged man and this clouds my perspective, but my 16 year old daughter and 13 year old lad have been coming to the villa with me for 8-10 years now. There have been some absolute shit seasons in that time and some shite matches. Im in the back of the right hand side of the lower holte, L2 and everyone stands where we are. Sometimes, the if my lads thoroughly pissed off, he’ll sit down for a bit chuntering to himself (Southampton at home this season). Surely not being entertained constantly for every second, with whirring lights and razzmatazz is part of being a football supporter. Despite all the dross of the last 10 years, the shit service behind the bar etc, my kids and my lad in particular are Villa nuts.
I hate the idea that we need exclusive fanzones and the like to engage the future generation, its not true and its more boxing the ‘product’ and selling aspects of it off to the highest bidders on a fortnightly basis, whilst sucking the soul out of the club.
Get the players to say hello in a better way, have some better pre match and during match service and something for the kids to encourage them to get down to VP earlier if they want, and thats enough for me.
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A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone who said what a great ground the Nou Camp was and how Molineux was shit because his kids said the carpets in the box they were in were starting to fray. And I thought what a soulless life that must be, to bring going to the match when you're a young lad down to the level of soft furnishings.
Yes, indeed. I remember when my biggest concern was getting back to my standing position when I got pushed down about 10 steps every-time there was an attack by the Villa or a near miss.
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A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone who said what a great ground the Nou Camp was and how Molineux was shit because his kids said the carpets in the box they were in were starting to fray. And I thought what a soulless life that must be, to bring going to the match when you're a young lad down to the level of soft furnishings.
Yes, indeed. I remember when my biggest concern was getting back to my standing position when I got pushed down about 10 steps every-time there was an attack by the Villa or a near miss.
No way are you that senior, Aftab.
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I dunno, Risso's tale of the Etihad horrified and depressed me in equal measure. Sounds like Alton Towers, not football.
If that's the way things are going (and I have no doubt it is) I suspect if we ever win anything again, I will have long since stopped bothering.
I think you've missed the point somewhat. The players' coach arrives, and those that want to can wait outside in a special area for the players to come out, who then sign autographs and pose for photos etc. It's obviously aimed at kids (and doesn't cost anything), and whatever you think of it, in my opinion it's a big improvement on the way our players just sort of skulk in without even bothering to acknowledge the fans. Nobody's forcing anybody to do it, and if you haven't got kids then you probably wouldn't bother. It's a nice touch for those that do though. The players then enter the building, where Man City fleece the more well-heeled Manc fans.
I can't see that this in any way detracts from the experience of people who just want to turn up, have a pint and a pie and have nothing to do with any extra razzamatazz whatsoever. It just give kids who would like to see the players a guaranteed opportunity to do so, without having to sort of guess as to whether or not the players can be arsed or not. Grumpy middle aged men are completely free to ignore it.
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There’s no point really complaining about it any more. Things change and so do people so what was great for a now middle age person like me (and most of us here) is not so great for the younger generation.
“I’ll just walk away from it, it’s not the game i loved” must be one of the most frequently posted things on here but it’s really not that simple, and is why we waste thousands of hours on here talking about it in the first place.
I don’t enjoy all that modern frippery we are talking about either, but let’s be entirely honest - we eulogise a time when the match day experience was very different, but then again, the modern younger fan isn’t having to put up with being treated like an animal (by multiple sectors of society), risking their life on unsafe terraces, and running the risk of getting their head kicked in if they go to an away match.
I also reckon for all we (I include myself in this) bang on about the inauthenticity of the fan experience at clubs like Man City or Man United or whoever and how yeah but we won the European Cup and we’d much rather meet someone from that team (who the majority of fans under 30 won’t have a clue about) in an environment akin to an expensive Harvester because it’s somehow more ‘real’ - well, maybe that’s part of the problem. They’re the ones amassing money, great payers and silverware. Maybe they’re doing something right?
We also tend to complain about the stuff we don’t like in the modern game whilst glossing over the good stuff. You can quite easily watch every single minute of every Villa match now, wherever you are in the world. That ubiquity of English football is all part of the same change in the game. You can’t keep that but not have all the other stuff you don’t like because it’s not like it was 20 years ago.
It isn’t the 1980s anymore, nothing stays the same for decades, and what is happening now has itself been going on for 30 years now - the people who watch it on the telly, the people who write about it in the media, the people who own the clubs, the people who go to matches - all changed.
I am happy to moan about it as good as the next man, but pretty soon there are going to be more people who only know the post 1992 match going experience then there are those who knew ‘our’ game, so it is a losing battle.
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Although I agree with the post above, I'd like to point out that only my experience of the game is the correct one. Everything else is the work of Satan.
It is very easy to ignore the showbiz element of football if you want to. Thankfully.
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Although I agree with the post above, I'd like to point out that only my experience of the game is the correct one. Everything else is the work of Satan.
It is very easy to ignore the showbiz element of football if you want to. Thankfully.
Yup. Credit where it's due.
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My first couple of games, I loved because I was there with my Dad. That was enough. Then the atmosphere got me. I always thought that when you've stood in the cold with 40-odd thousand strangers, all willing for the same thing, you can't undo that feeling of solidarity.
Yeah the ground and facilities should be as good as we can make them, but fuck me, if the next generation of football fans have so little invested in their local clubs that they are genuinely swayed by such trivial nonsense, I'm going to hate them even more than I do my own.
And I think that's why it lad loves it. He's with me.
Don't get me wrong, the celebrity things works too. He was chuffed he got to see Ronaldo play, because his Man Utd mates all went on about it. Even better, it was his last game, we made him look shit, and we beat them comprehensively.
Part of the match day is having your own ritual. Whether that's a kick about beforehand, a visit to the shop, standing at the fence trying to see the players go in or just having a tray of chips, it's all about what the Villa can do to make it better, easier, and let's be honest create some revenue whilst they're at it.
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Exactly Drummond. Whatever the experience, the club needs to be much better at all of it.
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Exactly Drummond. Whatever the experience, the club needs to be much better at all of it.
Yes, I've menetioned it before but just actually getting to and from the turnstiles in the North Stand from the Trinity Rd side is an absolute ballache in itself, which just shouldn't be the case.
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Exactly Drummond. Whatever the experience, the club needs to be much better at all of it.
Yes, I've menetioned it before but just actually getting to and from the turnstiles in the North Stand from the Trinity Rd side is an absolute ballache in itself, which just shouldn't be the case.
I've not thought about that but you're right. With the fences, parked cars, barriers and oncoming people, it's an assault course of narrowness.
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Exactly Drummond. Whatever the experience, the club needs to be much better at all of it.
Yes, I've menetioned it before but just actually getting to and from the turnstiles in the North Stand from the Trinity Rd side is an absolute ballache in itself, which just shouldn't be the case.
I've not thought about that but you're right. With the fences, parked cars, barriers and oncoming people, it's an assault course of narrowness.
Yes, and adding the 'entertainment' and street food vans by the Trinity gates doesn't help. I've started leaving before the end for the first time in my life because of it. Thankfully it looks like something that will be sorted once the redevelopment is done, but until then it's a joke. Would it really hurt to remove a couple of rows of cars from the car park to allow a clear access?
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Yes, indeed. I remember when my biggest concern was getting back to my standing position when I got pushed down about 10 steps every-time there was an attack by the Villa or a near miss.
No way are you that senior, Aftab.
He is but in a 'Dos Equis Man' sort of way (sans beard).
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I wonder how much we idealise the past.
When we talk about what it used to be like in, say, the 80s, it's all 48,000 for Man United and swaying around in a packed Holte when the realty was, that was the case once or twice a season, most of the team back then it'd be more like 15,000 and enough room on the Holte to sit down and have a picnic if you wanted
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Whilst on the face of it making a profit and having no debt is a good thing, and it is certainly better than most other clubs, having to do a Grealish transaction (once in a generation) to achieve this is worrying and our underlying results are unsustainable. £82m player amortisation write offs (vs £56m last year). Hopefully this was from accelerating some costs to match with the Grealish income.
As ever though the main points are - if the owners pull the plub we are stuffed and the numbers are already around 10 months out of date.
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Looking at the accounts one figure jumps out:
Turnover: £178.4m, compare it to:
Man City £571m
Liverpool £487m
Man Utd £494m
Chelsea £481m
Spurs £442m
Arsenal £367m
Bearing in mind that you can't spend what you don't earn, on a very simplistic basis, this means the "Big 6" had between two and three times to lay out on wages and transfers than we did.
Sonething to point out to the naysayers and moaners?
That Man City figure seems a little odd in comparison to the others, might warrant further investigation.
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Whilst on the face of it making a profit and having no debt is a good thing, and it is certainly better than most other clubs, having to do a Grealish transaction (once in a generation) to achieve this is worrying and our underlying results are unsustainable. £82m player amortisation write offs (vs £56m last year). Hopefully this was from accelerating some costs to match with the Grealish income.
As ever though the main points are - if the owners pull the plub we are stuffed and the numbers are already around 10 months out of date.
But if the owners pulled the plug, they'd be damaging the very asset they've already invested a lot of money in.
There's no reason to write off an exceptional player sale, either. It all contributes and whilst we might not sell a Grealish every year, we're also selling your Chukwemeka end of the market for 20m.
Man City and Chelsea also both make a lot of money selling players who pretty much never play for them. That's what we need to be aiming to do, too.
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Every club in the country would be stuffed if the owners pulled the plug, assuming nobody else wanted to buy it. Luckily with Premier League clubs, there pretty well always is a buyer in the wings.
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The brainy Villans seem to hang around The Athletic, not H&V :(
Under an article about our accounts, a Jack Y says...
The reduction in turnover is a red herring. In reality we increased our turnover by £25m.
The £183.6m we achieved the season before was because of the additional 10 extra games we had from the restart after Covid which fell in the same financial year and that's when we got our third SKY payment which was circa £36m.
This therefore inflated last year's accounts.
How did we spend £203m on player acquisitions? asks Matt C (as opposed to Matt G who used to post on here).
Jack Y again:
This is the gross total of the Ings, Buendia, Bailey, Coutinho, Carlos, Olson, Kamara, Digne signings*
Although Carlos/Kamara/Olsonand & Coutinho came the season after, they were all signed so early in the window, they actually fell into the season before's accounting period.
So you take all the above into account plus no more payments due to Randy Lerner, and basically we're in clover 8)
*Wouldn't all the above still have their fees stretched out over the length of their contracts, though?
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How much did NSWE pay for us?
I was just reading something about Bristol City and Sheffield United both being worth about £100m. I know we were a distressed asset at the time, but pretty sure we cost peanuts by comparison.
Get it right here and there's scope for them to make a lot of money. Which is, of course, why they're doing it in the first place.
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Every club in the country would be stuffed if the owners pulled the plug, assuming nobody else wanted to buy it. Luckily with Premier League clubs, there pretty well always is a buyer in the wings.
Even if they do have shit shoes. (and I know it was in the Championship but that's a technicality)
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That £203.5m on players is a bit misleading - it must include wages.
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That £203.5m on players is a bit misleading - it must include wages.
Yes, it Dougenomics
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That £203.5m on players is a bit misleading - it must include wages.
No it can't include wages as the actual figure for additions to intangible assets in the accounts is £203m. It's hard to get anywhere near the total though, as even if you take the higher end of reported fees as below, AND include Carlos and Olsen (even though they were reported as signing in June after the year end) it's still nowhere near. Kamara was free so when he signed makes no difference, and signing on fees paid to the player go to wages, so it's not that. It might be that we've had to pay compensation to the smaller clubs like West Brom and Fleetwood for the likes of Iroegbunam and Feeney, but even if that adds up to say £10m, it's still a bit off.
Buendia - £35m
Bailey - £30m
Ings - £27m
Digne - £30m
Coutinho - £17m
Carlos - £26m
Olsen £3m
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Exactly Drummond. Whatever the experience, the club needs to be much better at all of it.
When I go, ignoring the ticket cost, the four of us probably spend a minimum of £200 on beers and food across the day. It’s rare that any of that is spent at Villa park. The club should be looking to take at least half that by proving an experience either before or after the game. The Villa Live thing is a huge opportunity as I’d visit if it meant missing the crowds on the trains etc. But it has to be a good product, not only ‘stack em high, sell em’ cheap.
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That £203.5m on players is a bit misleading - it must include wages.
No it can't include wages as the actual figure for additions to intangible assets in the accounts is £203m. It's hard to get anywhere near the total though, as even if you take the higher end of reported fees as below, AND include Carlos and Olsen (even though they were reported as signing in June after the year end) it's still nowhere near. Kamara was free so when he signed makes no difference, and signing on fees paid to the player go to wages, so it's not that. It might be that we've had to pay compensation to the smaller clubs like West Brom and Fleetwood for the likes of Iroegbunam and Feeney, but even if that adds up to say £10m, it's still a bit off.
Buendia - £35m
Bailey - £30m
Ings - £27m
Digne - £30m
Coutinho - £17m
Carlos - £26m
Olsen £3m
I wonder if it could be staggered payments for previous signings?
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How much did NSWE pay for us?
I was just reading something about Bristol City and Sheffield United both being worth about £100m. I know we were a distressed asset at the time, but pretty sure we cost peanuts by comparison.
Get it right here and there's scope for them to make a lot of money. Which is, of course, why they're doing it in the first place.
I think it was something like £55m for the initial stake (with Xia still owning a chunk of the club) and then £30m to buy him out completely the year after because he couldn't cover the payment to Lerner. On top of that they clearly took on a further £10m that was covered in these accounts.
So the cost was £85m with a £10m liability, I think.
Either way it was a bargain.
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That £203.5m on players is a bit misleading - it must include wages.
No it can't include wages as the actual figure for additions to intangible assets in the accounts is £203m. It's hard to get anywhere near the total though, as even if you take the higher end of reported fees as below, AND include Carlos and Olsen (even though they were reported as signing in June after the year end) it's still nowhere near. Kamara was free so when he signed makes no difference, and signing on fees paid to the player go to wages, so it's not that. It might be that we've had to pay compensation to the smaller clubs like West Brom and Fleetwood for the likes of Iroegbunam and Feeney, but even if that adds up to say £10m, it's still a bit off.
Buendia - £35m
Bailey - £30m
Ings - £27m
Digne - £30m
Coutinho - £17m
Carlos - £26m
Olsen £3m
There were 13 youth players signed over the season and a couple of them were on the more expensive side (Kerr Smith was £2-3m on his own) so I reckon you can double that to £20m. We then have loan fees for Tuanzebe, Olsen and Coutinho which will be another £5-10m which gets you up within about £10m. Could the difference then be us paying out clauses for previous signings (I have no idea how these are added to the accounts)?
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Loan fees aren't capitalised though, they go straight to the P&L. Drummond's probably right, it'll be old contingent fees that happened that we then had to pay for this year and recognise in the accounts. I would expect a lot of youth fees are similarly end loaded, so wouldn't expect the full amounts to go into the most current accounts.
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That £203.5m on players is a bit misleading - it must include wages.
No it can't include wages as the actual figure for additions to intangible assets in the accounts is £203m. It's hard to get anywhere near the total though, as even if you take the higher end of reported fees as below, AND include Carlos and Olsen (even though they were reported as signing in June after the year end) it's still nowhere near. Kamara was free so when he signed makes no difference, and signing on fees paid to the player go to wages, so it's not that. It might be that we've had to pay compensation to the smaller clubs like West Brom and Fleetwood for the likes of Iroegbunam and Feeney, but even if that adds up to say £10m, it's still a bit off.
Buendia - £35m
Bailey - £30m
Ings - £27m
Digne - £30m
Coutinho - £17m
Carlos - £26m
Olsen £3m
That is what I thought. We never spent £203.5m. Otherwise what are we all moaning about.
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Ooh, it's another thrilling debate about accounting. Be still my beating heart
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Ooh, it's another thrilling debate about accounting. Be still my beating heart
To be fair mate, the thread title's a fair indication of what's inside!
Lee opens a Terry's Chocolate Orange. "FFS, it's full of bloody chocolate orange!" ;)
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Just seen later posts - staggered payments even so bit of a swizz the way they describe it.
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Ooh, it's another thrilling debate about accounting. Be still my beating heart
To be fair mate, the thread title's a fair indication of what's inside!
Lee opens a Terry's Chocolate Orange. "FFS, it's full of bloody chocolate orange!" ;)
I know, just a bit bored and hoping today's discussion focus would be a bit more exciting, something like 'where's the best place you've ever done brass rubbing?'
And I would never, ever complain at the discovery of orange chocolate.
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Loan fees aren't capitalised though, they go straight to the P&L. Drummond's probably right, it'll be old contingent fees that happened that we then had to pay for this year and recognise in the accounts. I would expect a lot of youth fees are similarly end loaded, so wouldn't expect the full amounts to go into the most current accounts.
Fair enough, I wasn't sure how they'd be counted, was just trying to work out a way to get to that number. Extra fees, etc does seem easiest though (I added it as an afterthought myself). Aren't most of the youth fees settled as compensation rather than a transfer fee so there's surely a fair amount of up front cost involved. Either way I think you can get to that figure if you bring in a lot of things that might not be included in the reported fee. Only if Carlos and Olsen are in there though. It'll be interesting to see what our figures are this time next year though because our spending for this season with Coutinho, Carlos and Olsen out is about £42m.
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I wonder how much we idealise the past.
When we talk about what it used to be like in, say, the 80s, it's all 48,000 for Man United and swaying around in a packed Holte when the realty was, that was the case once or twice a season, most of the team back then it'd be more like 15,000 and enough room on the Holte to sit down and have a picnic if you wanted
30,870 for the first home game of the season against Blues under SGT in 1987. And they had behind the goal and the then Witton Stand as I recall. It was weird because at the time it felt packed. Shit game we lost 2-0.
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This guy seems to do a review of numbers for all teams. Not sure how some of our accounting folks view his analysis of our numbers
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1632637478837387264
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The losses over the last five years are simply staggering and that revenue is piss poor compared to clubs above us. And selling Joe basically stopped us being loss making last year. This year Emi will do that.
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This guy seems to do a review of numbers for all teams. Not sure how some of our accounting folks view his analysis of our numbers
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1632637478837387264
Good info. I take is Purslow is the director mentioned and other key senior staff have no role with the controlling company.
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The losses over the last five years are simply staggering and that revenue is piss poor compared to clubs above us. And selling Joe basically stopped us being loss making last year. This year Emi will do that.
Didn't you want us to spend another £100m in January? ;)
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it looks like we paid a lot more for some of the players than has been reported.
Our revenue numbers are poor but what do you expect from the commercial, catering, merchandising and hospitality functions.
This is what a lot of people mean when challenging the big club idea when our revenues are low in comparison to so called smaller clubs.
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The losses over the last five years are simply staggering and that revenue is piss poor compared to clubs above us. And selling Joe basically stopped us being loss making last year. This year Emi will do that.
Didn't you want us to spend another £100m in January? ;)
I did and this is where the total irrationality of a football fan take precedent.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Kieran Maguire is great at translating football finance. Always worth listening to.
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The gist of the podcast is that without our current owners we would be now where near the premier league - and we could be another Portsmouth
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
I’ve just finished work and I’m too lazy to summarise.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
I’ve just finished work and I’m too lazy to summarise.
Wot no précis Percy?
Fascinating podcast. Thanks for posting.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
I’ve just finished work and I’m too lazy to summarise.
Wot no précis Percy?
Fascinating podcast. Thanks for posting.
No problem mate.
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The gist of the podcast is that without our current owners we would be now where near the premier league - and we could be another Portsmouth
Isn't that all a bit simplistic though? We don't operate in isolation and how many other clubs could say exactly the same thing - certainly without their current owners the likes of Brighton, Brentford, Bournemouth etc. would all still be in the lower leagues (and that's before you get to the likes of Chelsea and Man City who's owners have been systematically playing the system for a decade and more now). Also, without our previous owners we wouldn't have been in the shit to the extent we were when NWSE took over. Not to get all arrogant, but there is a reason why we got owners like ours when there were plenty of other clubs they could have invested in.
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I must admit I looked up For the Love of God podcast (for which there are many).
Kieron Maguire is very good at explaining football finances in plain English. He basically says we are reliant on our owners (given the historic losses). The profit in 2022 was off the Grealish sale (pure profit as he was an academy player) and whilst we have spent a lot too, in 2022 this was off the back of the Grealish money (the host says Ings then sold at a loss, bailey is hit and miss and Buendia now coming into his own).
There's a discussion on how clubs buy and sell on credit these days, the implication being if one defaults there will be repercussions.
He also made a good point that the comparative year 2021 is based on having 45 matches given the Covid hang over which means we aren't comparing apples with apples for revenues.
In summary he credits us with being a mid table team (fair enough) but when you look at revenues of the big 6 or 7 (as has been done on this thread) their income is often £200m+ more making it difficult to compete and that Everton tried this a few years back and it spectacularly misfired.
Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go and buy a player in the transfer window .
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
I’ve just finished work and I’m too lazy to summarise.
Haha. No problem, fella.
Thank you for posting. Will check it out this evening once I've put my incredibly rampant daughter to bed!
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Do we have the ability to pull off the transfers that we need to change this significantly?
I have my doubts.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
I’ve just finished work and I’m too lazy to summarise.
Haha. No problem, fella.
Thank you for posting. Will check it out this evening once I've put my incredibly rampant daughter to bed!
Well worth a listen mate. Good luck with the babby.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
Even Emery himself said there's always a new manager bounce. I think the incompetent Scouse fraud was similarly high in the table after a comparable number of games.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Yes it took about 1000 years.
No hurry.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Do we have the ability to pull off the transfers that we need to change this significantly?
I have my doubts.
Jesus Christ.
Why are you even bothering to show an interest if it’s all that impossible?
We’ve got a big supporter base, we are currently enlarging the stadium - which is full every time we play - we’ve got an elite level manager, we have extremely wealthy ambitious owners. There is no reason we shouldn’t start to fulfil our potential.
Seriously with that sort of attitude, why bother? We are shit / we don’t have the money / we don’t turnover enough / we are unable to buy decent players / we shouldn’t try to play in Europe next season.
Honest question - why are you bothering with all this at all if it is so doomed to failure?
I consider myself heavily on the sceptical side of the argument but you sound like you’ve just entirely given up and are revelling in the misery of it all.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
It would still be a collection of mud huts on the banks of the Tiber if some Villa fans were in charge.
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FFP isn't actually really about fair play it is more ring fencing for the big team making it difficult to break into their club without "doing a Man City".
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The problem is as a club, pretty much every element of the club was behind where it needed to be when NWSE bought it (obviously).
It means everything has to be improved; unfortunately, we have made quite a few mistakes which has meant it is ultimately more costly. Like Gerrard and most of his signings, Ings, Maybe Bailey, Maybe even Beundia. Most, if not all, of the players we have signed and have moved on are at a loss.
We don't enter the cup competitions, and last years table finish missed out on prize money when we should be pushing on. And match day "experience" could make a lot more money if we had better catering and staff.
It is a long process - and that's why the continual process "approach" does actually make sense - if we get better in all the areas all the time, the revenues would follow - but we have had 2 years with a lack of progress on the pitch which probably cost us 100m, and covid which probably stopped a lot of the other improvements from happening
The only area that seems to be working well is the youth setup, to be honest - as we have a number of players that if they don't make it with Villa, will make it somewhere. I think the club will get there, we can see that with the Unai - but we do need improvements in these other areas and continued investment so these other improvements do happen;
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We say we don’t enter the cup competitions but have been to three finals since 2010 - way more than most clubs.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Do we have the ability to pull off the transfers that we need to change this significantly?
I have my doubts.
Jesus Christ.
Why are you even bothering to show an interest if it’s all that impossible?
We’ve got a big supporter base, we are currently enlarging the stadium - which is full every time we play - we’ve got an elite level manager, we have extremely wealthy ambitious owners. There is no reason we shouldn’t start to fulfil our potential.
Seriously with that sort of attitude, why bother? We are shit / we don’t have the money / we don’t turnover enough / we are unable to buy decent players / we shouldn’t try to play in Europe next season.
Honest question - why are you bothering with all this at all if it is so doomed to failure?
I consider myself heavily on the sceptical side of the argument but you should like you’ve just entirely given up.
Well I have seen the accounts and there is very little to be reassured about there.
I agree we have the best manager that we could hope for and he is doing as well as can be expected.
The issue is how do we get from a mid table level to challenging top 6 and this is where I have my doubts.
By my reckoning we need 5 top 6 level players and the budget for that is £250 million £300 million ? You think we are spending that?
I am still trying to work out how they spent £209 million in 1 year and look at what that bought us.
The owners great, Manager great after that I think there are a lot of problems which shows up in the accounts and the match day experience.
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We say we don’t enter the cup competitions but have been to three finals since 2010 - way more than most clubs.
Yeah to be fair we seem to either go out very early, or get to the final
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Sometimes one player can make all the difference, like a Toney, Mitrovic or Guimaraes for example. Take away all of those from Brentford, Fulham and Newcastle, and I guarantee they'd all be lower midtable fodder again, fighting relegation.
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Kieran Maguire on For The Love of Paul McGrath podcast tonight, talking about our accounts. Interesting listen.
Interesting in a positive sense? Are we ready to splash the cash, so to speak?
I’ve just finished work and I’m too lazy to summarise.
Haha. No problem, fella.
Thank you for posting. Will check it out this evening once I've put my incredibly rampant daughter to bed!
Well worth a listen mate. Good luck with the babby.
Cheers mate!
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Sometimes one player can make all the difference, like a Toney, Mitrovic or Guimaraes for example. Take away all of those from Brentford, Fulham and Newcastle, and I guarantee they'd all be lower midtable fodder again, fighting relegation.
Yes, and I feel at the minute the right player in Bailey's role could be transformative for us.
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Sometimes one player can make all the difference, like a Toney, Mitrovic or Guimaraes for example. Take away all of those from Brentford, Fulham and Newcastle, and I guarantee they'd all be lower midtable fodder again, fighting relegation.
Yes, and I feel at the minute the right player in Bailey's role could be transformative for us.
Absolutely mate. A decent attacking forward to weigh in with double figures of goals and we'd be miles better. Them back that up with somebody like Guendouzi, a replacement for Konsa who can play out from the back and we'd be motoring.
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Do we have the ability to pull off the transfers that we need to change this significantly?
I have my doubts.
Jesus Christ.
Why are you even bothering to show an interest if it’s all that impossible?
We’ve got a big supporter base, we are currently enlarging the stadium - which is full every time we play - we’ve got an elite level manager, we have extremely wealthy ambitious owners. There is no reason we shouldn’t start to fulfil our potential.
Seriously with that sort of attitude, why bother? We are shit / we don’t have the money / we don’t turnover enough / we are unable to buy decent players / we shouldn’t try to play in Europe next season.
Honest question - why are you bothering with all this at all if it is so doomed to failure?
I consider myself heavily on the sceptical side of the argument but you should like you’ve just entirely given up.
Well I have seen the accounts and there is very little to be reassured about there.
I agree we have the best manager that we could hope for and he is doing as well as can be expected.
The issue is how do we get from a mid table level to challenging top 6 and this is where I have my doubts.
By my reckoning we need 5 top 6 level players and the budget for that is £250 million £300 million ? You think we are spending that?
I am still trying to work out how they spent £209 million in 1 year and look at what that bought us.
The owners great, Manager great after that I think there are a lot of problems which shows up in the accounts and the match day experience.
I don't know if we are going to spend that, but you've just yourself reference a year in which we spent over 200m and then asked if we're likely to spend 250+ - so it's clearly not entirely the stuff of science fiction.
We're not going to go out in a window and immediately buy a squad that is going to get there - we need to be improving several positions in every window over the course of a few windows, and in the meantime, winning as many games as we possibly can - finish higher up the league, earn more money to make those accounts look better, and have less problems holding on to players because we're (for example) in Europe, or we are visibly improving our standing in things.
It won't be easy but all the elements are there if we can get it right. This isn't the first time we've spent money, but it's the first time we've done it with ALL the pieces in place, with seriously capable people running things.
It's probably true, for example, that we mostly find Purslow a bit oily at times, but I'd back his ability to run and grow a football club over that of the people who ran things in the Lerner years, for example, every single time.
Nobody has a divine right to success, but we give ourselves a great chance if we improve year on year at a decent rate. I still wish we'd done more in January, but this summer is the big one, this is when we'll see how serious we are.
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Sometimes one player can make all the difference, like a Toney, Mitrovic or Guimaraes for example. Take away all of those from Brentford, Fulham and Newcastle, and I guarantee they'd all be lower midtable fodder again, fighting relegation.
Yes, and I feel at the minute the right player in Bailey's role could be transformative for us.
Absolutely mate. A decent attacking forward to weigh in with double figures of goals and we'd be miles better. Them back that up with somebody like Guendouzi, a replacement for Konsa who can play out from the back and we'd be motoring.
I honestly reckon (and said this the other day) that he's a ******, yeah, but who cares, someone like Zaha would have a disproportionate impact on this team.
I tend to agree, fill those roles you mentioned and we'd be a much better team.
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I honestly reckon (and said this the other day) that he's a ******, yeah, but who cares, someone like Zaha would have a disproportionate impact on this team.
Me and LeeB said exactly the same at the match. Get him in on a free and he'd be excellent. A huge upgrade on Bailey, and somebody who would give us versatility as well.
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The window this summer almost feels like 1995 again to me, with three key signings for the spine of the team. It won't necessarily cost £200 million, but that summer I think we broke our transfer record 3 times so every penny we have available is going to be needed.
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Sometimes one player can make all the difference, like a Toney, Mitrovic or Guimaraes for example. Take away all of those from Brentford, Fulham and Newcastle, and I guarantee they'd all be lower midtable fodder again, fighting relegation.
We had him, globally marketable, brilliant backstory and a fantastic player...
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Overall a fair and balanced summary and for me supports why we didn't just go snd buy a player in the transfer window .
The only way we're going to make more money is by being more successful. And to be more successful we need better players than this midtable at best squad.
Do we have the ability to pull off the transfers that we need to change this significantly?
I have my doubts.
Jesus Christ.
Why are you even bothering to show an interest if it’s all that impossible?
We’ve got a big supporter base, we are currently enlarging the stadium - which is full every time we play - we’ve got an elite level manager, we have extremely wealthy ambitious owners. There is no reason we shouldn’t start to fulfil our potential.
Seriously with that sort of attitude, why bother? We are shit / we don’t have the money / we don’t turnover enough / we are unable to buy decent players / we shouldn’t try to play in Europe next season.
Honest question - why are you bothering with all this at all if it is so doomed to failure?
I consider myself heavily on the sceptical side of the argument but you should like you’ve just entirely given up.
Well I have seen the accounts and there is very little to be reassured about there.
I agree we have the best manager that we could hope for and he is doing as well as can be expected.
The issue is how do we get from a mid table level to challenging top 6 and this is where I have my doubts.
By my reckoning we need 5 top 6 level players and the budget for that is £250 million £300 million ? You think we are spending that?
I am still trying to work out how they spent £209 million in 1 year and look at what that bought us.
The owners great, Manager great after that I think there are a lot of problems which shows up in the accounts and the match day experience.
I don't know if we are going to spend that, but you've just yourself reference a year in which we spent over 200m and then asked if we're likely to spend 250+ - so it's clearly not entirely the stuff of science fiction.
We're not going to go out in a window and immediately buy a squad that is going to get there - we need to be improving several positions in every window over the course of a few windows, and in the meantime, winning as many games as we possibly can - finish higher up the league, earn more money to make those accounts look better, and have less problems holding on to players because we're (for example) in Europe, or we are visibly improving our standing in things.
It won't be easy but all the elements are there if we can get it right. This isn't the first time we've spent money, but it's the first time we've done it with ALL the pieces in place, with seriously capable people running things.
It's probably true, for example, that we mostly find Purslow a bit oily at times, but I'd back his ability to run and grow a football club over that of the people who ran things in the Lerner years, for example, every single time.
Nobody has a divine right to success, but we give ourselves a great chance if we improve year on year at a decent rate. I still wish we'd done more in January, but this summer is the big one, this is when we'll see how serious we are.
I have less faith than you in Purslow, how long has he had to fix the catering problems. He is certainly no David Dien.
But you are right this summer should tell us an awful lot.
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Stevie is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
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I honestly reckon (and said this the other day) that he's a ******, yeah, but who cares, someone like Zaha would have a disproportionate impact on this team.
Me and LeeB said exactly the same at the match. Get him in on a free and he'd be excellent. A huge upgrade on Bailey, and somebody who would give us versatility as well.
I think Bailey will do well at Palace ;)
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Steven is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
You did, and you were right.
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Steven is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
You did, and you were right.
Except for one big difference.
This manager is not a flash in the pan that's stumbled across winning ways, he has history of consistent success from all his previous clubs, with the backing that he has been promised (otherwise why would he have come to us and tarnished his career to date), I do feel this is only the start of greater things to come.
I've been able to watch all the games, and apart from the cup exits (which soured things a little), I've seen a style and substance to our game plan that is either left in place from kick-off to the final whistle OR (most importantly) changed during the game to try to achieve a win - even in the matches where individual errors screwed us. I have not seen that for decades.
Of course, if it all goes tits up - I'll deny any knowledge of this post and claim my dog found my password and typed such drivel.
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Steven is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
You did, and you were right.
He's already had 12 league games. Not enough to draw any long term conclusions, but certainly enough to see us be beyond the "new manager bounce".
We've won 7, lost 4 and drawn 1. Three of the losses were away to Liverpool and Man City and home to Arsenal (a game we were leading twice) - and we also beat Man Utd and Spurs. If these games had been the first 12 games of the season, we'd be in the top four, having already played FIVE of the six teams with realistic hopes of being in the top four themselves. And we've done all that without suddenly becoming a sparklingly entertaining side. Lots of good periods in games, some very good performances, and some pretty drab and forgettable ones too - as you'd expect from a side transitioning to a new style of play.
But if you can't let yourself get a LITTLE bit excited by Emery's start after that, when can you?
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Steven is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
You did, and you were right.
It was true though, there were a lot of promising signs when Gerrard arrived and I don't think they were as simple as new manager bounce. He identified Ramsey as someone worth bringing in and for a few months there was genuine talk of him breaking through into the world cup squad. The problem was the tactic he was using to get that uptick was fairly basic and teams worked it out. It was only when that happened and he had no answer to it that it became clear he was a waste of space (this was also my biggest concern with him because he'd only ever managed in a league where he had a massive advantage over all but 1 of their opponents so the tactics never got put under the same sort of pressure).
Where Emery is different is he's done it at multiple clubs in different leagues and has learned how to adapt tactics both to the opposition and his players but also just to mix things up and avoid becoming predictable.
Once Gerrard got found out we never looked like we had a plan on how we were going to create chances and win games. Under Emery we've shown we have it in us to control games without looking particularly good and still take points, you can also see phases of play that look a lot like his teams in the past played but it just needs time and a few additions to really take shape.
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Which games has he changed things to good effect in?
The wins have been against:
Man U
Brighton
Spurs
Leeds
Southampton
Everton
Palace
All welcome victories, but a big spread of perfomances, from excellent (Man U) through solid and workmanlike (Palace) to played quite badly, lucky to get away with it (Leeds). I can't really recall any big changes in tactics that affected any of those games though to be honest. He seems to pretty much favour his version of 4-4-2, which is fine as it's mostly working in at the moment, and as it is with our miniscule squad there's not much scope to change things up anyway.
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Which games has he changed things to good effect in?
The wins have been against:
Man U
Brighton
Spurs
Leeds
Southampton
Everton
Palace
All welcome victories, but a big spread of perfomances, from excellent (Man U) through solid and workmanlike (Palace) to played quite badly, lucky to get away with it (Leeds). I can't really recall any big changes in tactics that affected any of those games though to be honest. He seems to pretty much favour his version of 4-4-2, which is fine as it's mostly working in at the moment, and as it is with our miniscule squad there's not much scope to change things up anyway.
If you're looking purely at performances, and not just results, then I think you also have to look at the losses. Barring the (obviously) costly individual errors, I thought we played better in losing to Leicester than we did in beating Palace, for example. More possession than against Palace, more than twice the chances, more than three times to shots on target - but we still lost.
There has also been a tendency for us to have a "slow" first half, and be better in the second, which Emery has to take responsibility for, but I do think the performances overall have been much better since he came him - even when the results have not.
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Seems a bit more thought behind our performances under Emery than "look me in the eye", "they should wipe the floor with us", "we need a bit of magic from someone". Gerrard was a complete fraud who after his opening 6 games barely had us averaging a point a game for the next 32 and never beat a single team that either wasn't shit or massively out of form. He was clueless and shit. Unai isn't either.
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Which games has he changed things to good effect in?
The wins have been against:
Man U
Brighton
Spurs
Leeds
Southampton
Everton
Palace
All welcome victories, but a big spread of perfomances, from excellent (Man U) through solid and workmanlike (Palace) to played quite badly, lucky to get away with it (Leeds). I can't really recall any big changes in tactics that affected any of those games though to be honest. He seems to pretty much favour his version of 4-4-2, which is fine as it's mostly working in at the moment, and as it is with our miniscule squad there's not much scope to change things up anyway.
Whi said anything about formation, and specifically the one that gets listed on websites,etc? Tactics is more than that and if you don't think we've changed our approach in some of those games then there's not much point arguing about it.
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Which games has he changed things to good effect in?
The wins have been against:
Man U
Brighton
Spurs
Leeds
Southampton
Everton
Palace
All welcome victories, but a big spread of perfomances, from excellent (Man U) through solid and workmanlike (Palace) to played quite badly, lucky to get away with it (Leeds). I can't really recall any big changes in tactics that affected any of those games though to be honest. He seems to pretty much favour his version of 4-4-2, which is fine as it's mostly working in at the moment, and as it is with our miniscule squad there's not much scope to change things up anyway.
I don't see the point in trying to pick faults with 7 wins. Theres always going to be one or two iffy performances when a team is trying to adjust to a different way of playing. It's just the way it is.
Edit. Just re-read your post and it seems you are on about tactics.
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Risso, you do rate Emery higher than Gerrard, right?!
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Seems a bit more thought behind our performances under Emery than "look me in the eye", "they should wipe the floor with us", "we need a bit of magic from someone". Gerrard was a complete fraud who after his opening 6 games barely had us averaging a point a game for the next 32 and never beat a single team that either wasn't shit or massively out of form. He was clueless and shit. Unai isn't either.
I think the key thing to take away is that with this squad we need to wait and see. If you randomly ignore Emery's first 6 games in the same fashion as above, the only teams we've beaten are shit or massively out of form in Leeds, Southampton, Everton and Palace, so let's see how he gets on without Kamara for a few weeks.
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I think 32 games of being shit, and failing to beat anyone of note in all 38 is a big enough sample to make a judgement, don't you?
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Risso, you do rate Emery higher than Gerrard, right?!
Of course I do, but my point all along has been that this squad isn't good enough for anything other than midtable. Emery is clearly a much better coach than Gerrard, but we're already seeing the same old maddening inconsistencies, week in, week out. Even if Emery gets say, 20% more out of all them, that's still not going to be enough. I think by the end of the season we'll still be 11th at best. We haven't put together two good halves of football since Man U in Emery's first game.
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I think 32 games of being shit, and failing to beat anyone of note in all 38 is a big enough sample to make a judgement, don't you?
Indeed, and it's why he got the sack, like Smith before him. Let's just see what this squad is capable of for the remainder of this season.
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Hands up who had Smith getting a mention on their bingo card?
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Hands up who had Smith getting a mention on their bingo card?
Hands up who had PWS being an arse on theirs?
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I'm fairly happy with how it's going and how we are playing overall and anyway, it's not just about this season, it's beyond that.
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I'm fairly happy with how it's going and how we are playing overall and anyway, it's not just about this season, it's beyond that.
As I said after Saturday, I was happy with the result, as a workmanlike win is always better than an entertaining defeat. Overall though I don't think this squad is capable of much more and would have liked the rebuilding job to start this January. I don't think any of that is especially controversial.
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I'm fairly happy with how it's going and how we are playing overall and anyway, it's not just about this season, it's beyond that.
As I said after Saturday, I was happy with the result, as a workmanlike win is always better than an entertaining defeat. Overall though I don't think this squad is capable of much more and would have liked the rebuilding job to start this January. I don't think any of that is especially controversial.
I didn't say it wasn't. My post was just a general one.
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I'm fairly happy with how it's going and how we are playing overall and anyway, it's not just about this season, it's beyond that.
As I said after Saturday, I was happy with the result, as a workmanlike win is always better than an entertaining defeat. Overall though I don't think this squad is capable of much more and would have liked the rebuilding job to start this January. I don't think any of that is especially controversial.
The accounts show that we have to be much smarter spending money than we have been in the past. No argument that we would prefer a bigger/better squad right nowt, but if players who would truly improve the first team weren't available then this is one year when we could probably afford to wait - we are already safe, and Europe was always a long-shot from where we were.
Clearing the decks of players who clearly aren't good enough/won't fit in ahead of a busy summer window was the right plan, plus it creates room in pre-season to get a proper look at Archer, Ramsey, Iroegbunam etc in the summer to see if they are good enough for the squad next season.
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He clearly doesn't think some of the players are clever enough to do what he wants them to do.
I don't think it is (as someone said) like Cash learning himself what to do in future rather than being told, if Emery does spend days preparing tactics then it's always going to be about executing what he tells them to do (although he might actually tell them to be expressive / make their own mids up in some cases).
He can't come out and name specific players for not being up to it because he's got to get a tune out of them for the rest of the season. My take is he'll say what he needs to say to keep them onside while we need them to be, and then fuck them off in the summer.
I think there is going to be a proper exodus, and we'll see him getting players of the type he likes in, players with the attributes he wants rather than players who might have been acquired because they could play the way Gerrard wanted them to.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
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Yeah I think that's true. The summer's going to be very interesting.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
I think Spurs are catchable. Their recruitment has been pretty poor in recent times. Once Harry leaves/winds-down, they'll be in trouble.
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Spurs are very catchable. We just need to do what they do, which is make sure to beat all the sides at the lower end of the table. It's where they make the overwhelming majority of their points. I did a count up a while back when they were sitting very pretty in the table with 33 points from about 19 or 20 games, I think it was. 25 of those points had come from 8 wins and a draw in games against the bottom 9. They'd beaten Fulham and Brighton, and managed 2 points from the rest of the top 11.
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if we are going to compete with the likes of Spurs we need to expand the ground to increase matchday income, this may take a few years to come through.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
6th at best - for a club that hasn't finished in the top half for 12 years - is very good indeed.
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In and around the top six and a cup or two. You can do it Unai.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
I think Spurs are catchable. Their recruitment has been pretty poor in recent times. Once Harry leaves/winds-down, they'll be in trouble.
Do Newcastle really belong on that list? They’ve won 1 game in the league this year. I think they over achieved earlier in the season but it’s started to catch up with them.
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Seeing those recent financial figures shows us what we’re up against. It’s stark indeed. We can’t afford to get it wrong with player trading at all almost to progress or even stand still. The super league 6 can afford multiple mistakes. It looks a big ask to get everything on the money and then the team have a good season. I think we have got better from where we use to be on the ins and outs front but it was a very low base indeed. Do we have to recalibrate our expectations?
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Risso, you do rate Emery higher than Gerrard, right?!
Of course I do, but my point all along has been that this squad isn't good enough for anything other than midtable. Emery is clearly a much better coach than Gerrard, but we're already seeing the same old maddening inconsistencies, week in, week out. Even if Emery gets say, 20% more out of all them, that's still not going to be enough. I think by the end of the season we'll still be 11th at best. We haven't put together two good halves of football since Man U in Emery's first game.
We are 4th or 5th in the form table since he came in, so there's every opportunity to finish higher than 11th.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
6th at best - for a club that hasn't finished in the top half for 12 years - is very good indeed.
Yep, and almost certainly Europe, and therefore more income, which gives us the shot.... I'd also argue that because we're building it sustainably rather than a boom or bust model, we're more likely to continue.
We're heading the right way. These owners are improving pretty much everything year on year (except for the shit service in the stands and even that seems to be better in the last few weeks) and there're absolutely no reason to think it won't continue.
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Yeah I think that's true. The summer's going to be very interesting.
And, of course, Emery needs a pre-season and will need to push on in the following January window. ;-)
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Yeah I think that's true. The summer's going to be very interesting.
And, of course, Emery needs a pre-season and will need to push on in the following January window. ;-)
A full pre-season should see us very well prepared. I don't think he'll need anyone making excuses for him.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottenham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
This is the point, we need to overhaul the also rans which every year will throw up 4 or 5 teams competing for the top half and then comes the real challenge with the big boys.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottenham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
This is the point, we need to overhaul the also rans which every year will throw up 4 or 5 teams competing for the top half and then comes the real challenge with the big boys.
This is why, in the short term at least, the likes of Newcastle getting a big investment doesn't have to necessarily be a bad thing for us. To have a chance of finishing in the top 4 it needs more teams who are capable of beating the same old candidates. I think we are seeing this to an extent this season, with no-one outside of Man City or Arsenal seemingly nailed on for the top 4 this year. If we can ensure we get much better at beating teams in the lower half then Europe will always be a possibility, and a good season could get you top 4.
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
[/quote
I think Spurs are catchable. Their recruitment has been pretty poor in recent times. Once Harry leaves/winds-down, they'll be in trouble.
Do Newcastle really belong on that list? They’ve won 1 game in the league this year. I think they over achieved earlier in the season but it’s started to catch up with them.
]I agree Chris I get a bit fed up about all the "bigging" up of Newcastle, the rules are set and that limits what you can do including us as we can see.
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I think it was on another thread about one or two players making a huge difference to this team - I think that is bang on. I think the first place, and maybe most important, that we might see a major improvement is Carlos coming in. I don't mind Konsa, but he isn't good enough at playing the ball forwards. And any team that has done even the slightest bit of research on us will know that, so we become easier to play against - and that is a major aspect of our game. As far as I'm aware, Carlos is much more capable at playing the 20-30 yard balls where the space opens up as we get pressed, which could mean we advance up the pitch so much quicker than we are currently doing, and take a lot of pressure off Mings who has always had to do the bulk of the work at playing out from the back.
It's funny discussing the players that aren't good enough for us in the long term, because my opinion has changed slightly since Emery came in. Players like Mings, Watkins and McGinn, maybe Doug, were going to be squad players in my head - but those seem integral to how we play right now. We obviously need someone that can play with Ollie, in the Bailey slot, and more competition in midfield, but I don't think the gaps in our squad are as obvious as they were 6 months ago.
I'm allowing myself to get a bit excited with how things are going, in a way I didn't at this stage under Gerrard. I think Emery is getting a lot out of these players, while he's trying to build something that's new to them - this is nowhere near the finished article. The players can all learn more under this manager, and we can improve the personnel - there is so much more scope to improve, which I think is incredibly positive. This is the base level, and while I'm certain that there will be setbacks, the long-term trajectory is surely going to be positive this time....right?
At the moment, we're by and large beating the teams worse than us, and a few that are better than us. We've had one (league) game in 12 where that wasn't the case (and I think that's the best we've played all season). We're getting there. I fully understand people being cautious about it, but I skipped being optimistic under the last manager, so I'm going all in this time to make up for it.
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I agree re Newcastle - being in the top four after 19 games isn't really what matters, but you'd think they had arrived to listen to the hype.
They've spent a reasonable amount (although FFP must have left them lose of leeway after years of Ashley) but it is more good coaching than money that has improved them so much.
They've got some excellent players - Guimaraes, Botman, Trippier, Pope - but they have some utter dross like the Longstaffs knocking around, as well as some mediocrity like Wilson. They're miles off having a top four competing squad and will be for a while yet.
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The gist of the podcast is that without our current owners we would be now where near the premier league - and we could be another Portsmouth
there's a few clubs like that I imagine
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Steven is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
You did, and you were right.
Except for one big difference.
This manager is not a flash in the pan that's stumbled across winning ways, he has history of consistent success from all his previous clubs, with the backing that he has been promised (otherwise why would he have come to us and tarnished his career to date), I do feel this is only the start of greater things to come.
I've been able to watch all the games, and apart from the cup exits (which soured things a little), I've seen a style and substance to our game plan that is either left in place from kick-off to the final whistle OR (most importantly) changed during the game to try to achieve a win - even in the matches where individual errors screwed us. I have not seen that for decades.
Of course, if it all goes tits up - I'll deny any knowledge of this post and claim my dog found my password and typed such drivel.
A bit like your cat being sick on your homework🤣🤣
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In 2016 it says we had a director, whilst being the Championship, being paid £2.96 million a year. Who the fuck was that? That fat bloke who did the Grabban Alexa unveiling who sued Xia and the Villa? How on Earth can you justify £60k p/w as a director in the Championship? What a con merchant.
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In 2016 it says we had a director, whilst being the Championship, being paid £2.96 million a year. Who the fuck was that? That fat bloke who did the Grabban Alexa unveiling who sued Xia and the Villa? How on Earth can you justify £60k p/w as a director in the Championship? What a con merchant.
I think a lot of it was probably termination payments either when Xia took over, or to Tom Fox when he left.
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In 2016 it says we had a director, whilst being the Championship, being paid £2.96 million a year. Who the fuck was that? That fat bloke who did the Grabban Alexa unveiling who sued Xia and the Villa? How on Earth can you justify £60k p/w as a director in the Championship? What a con merchant.
I think a lot of it was probably termination payments either when Xia took over, or to Tom Fox when he left.
Probably but Wyness did come across as the sort of sleezeball who'd give himself that sort of wage.
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In 2016 it says we had a director, whilst being the Championship, being paid £2.96 million a year. Who the fuck was that? That fat bloke who did the Grabban Alexa unveiling who sued Xia and the Villa? How on Earth can you justify £60k p/w as a director in the Championship? What a con merchant.
I think a lot of it was probably termination payments either when Xia took over, or to Tom Fox when he left.
Probably but Wyness did come across as the sort of sleezeball who'd give himself that sort of wage.
It wasn't him, he was only ever a director of one of the subsidiary companies, and first appeared in the accounts the following year.
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In 2016 it says we had a director, whilst being the Championship, being paid £2.96 million a year. Who the fuck was that? That fat bloke who did the Grabban Alexa unveiling who sued Xia and the Villa? How on Earth can you justify £60k p/w as a director in the Championship? What a con merchant.
I think a lot of it was probably termination payments either when Xia took over, or to Tom Fox when he left.
Probably but Wyness did come across as the sort of sleezeball who'd give himself that sort of wage.
It wasn't him, he was only ever a director of one of the subsidiary companies, and first appeared in the accounts the following year.
No, but that's clearly who he was thinking about in the bold bit, I was saying I could understand why they thought that.
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I am a glass half full person by nature, and have looked at the accounts ( not an accountant though)and seen several promising signs, compared with the past few years.
Also think our turnover will be increasing substantially year ending May 23.
Turnover is down but largely due to poor finishing spot in prem money league.
Hopefully this years broadcasting will exceed 21 figure of 157m.
Commercial income grew by 50% to 40m. This will be a focus of the owners to grow this side of business.
Match day income will also grow due to price rises. Probably 20m with more to come when new Witton end and enhanced services and leisure opportunities in future years.
Wages as % of income down to 77%, will probably reduce further this year. Down from the nightmare 175% of 2019.
The Grealish money is quoted as the reason for profit, but we did spend heavily as a consequence, bringing in 3 new players with mixed results.
People are saying we are only surviving because of the owners putting in the money regularly.
I would say they picked up a bargain off shit shoes Tony, and are happy to continue to support to get us to where we all want to be.
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I am a glass half full person by nature, and have looked at the accounts ( not an accountant though)and seen several promising signs, compared with the past few years.
Also think our turnover will be increasing substantially year ending May 23.
Turnover is down but largely due to poor finishing spot in prem money league.
Hopefully this years broadcasting will exceed 21 figure of 157m.
Commercial income grew by 50% to 40m. This will be a focus of the owners to grow this side of business.
Match day income will also grow due to price rises. Probably 20m with more to come when new Witton end and enhanced services and leisure opportunities in future years.
Wages as % of income down to 77%, will probably reduce further this year. Down from the nightmare 175% of 2019.
The Grealish money is quoted as the reason for profit, but we did spend heavily as a consequence, bringing in 3 new players with mixed results.
People are saying we are only surviving because of the owners putting in the money regularly.
I would say they picked up a bargain off shit shoes Tony, and are happy to continue to support to get us to where we all want to be.
That’s the kind of summary I like. I’m an optimist too.
Does anyone know if we’ll be able to offload big earners with little to no resale value to Las Vegas Villans (if and when it’s established)? Could it be a useful FFP blag?
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The manager talks about mentality. What he means is the ability have the toughness to withstand and overcome disappointments while having the fortitude to press how advantages. Being smart and even cynical when needed. We have Emi’s shithousery which addresses some of it but look across the rest of the side. We are lacking players who are capable of being what the manager wants in key outfield positions. That will change this summer.
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The manager talks about mentality. What he means is the ability have the toughness to withstand and overcome disappointments while having the fortitude to press how advantages. Being smart and even cynical when needed. We have Emi’s shithousery which addresses some of it but look across the rest of the side. We are lacking players who are capable of being what the manager wants in key outfield positions. That will change this summer.
Had to check to see if you or I was on the wrong thread. I think it’s you TV.
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The Grealish money is quoted as the reason for profit, but we did spend heavily as a consequence, bringing in 3 new players with mixed results.
I think the 'headline take-away' that the Grealish sale made us the profit, is because all the "replacements" costing close to what we sold him for are recorded as assets on the Balance Sheet while Grealish is pure revenue.
Like for like, with their fees allocated over length of contract, you could say:
£100m for Grealish
Less: 1/4 of £35m Buendia (£8.75m)
Less: 1/4 of £30m Bailey (£7.5m)
Less: 1/3 of £20m Danny Ings (£6.6m)
= £77.75m
But their combined wages versus Grealish would also be higher taking a bit off the net revenue he gave us.
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The Grealish money is quoted as the reason for profit, but we did spend heavily as a consequence, bringing in 3 new players with mixed results.
I think the 'headline take-away' that the Grealish sale made us the profit, is because all the "replacements" costing close to what we sold him for are recorded as assets on the Balance Sheet while Grealish is pure revenue.
Like for like, with their fees allocated over length of contract, you could say:
£100m for Grealish
Less: 1/4 of £35m Buendia (£8.75m)
Less: 1/4 of £30m Bailey (£7.5m)
Less: 1/3 of £20m Danny Ings (£6.6m)
= £77.75m
But their combined wages versus Grealish would also be higher taking a bit off the net revenue he gave us.
Good point, didn’t acoount for amortisation. The wages for 2022 were slightly lower overall than 2021 which is positive.
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The manager talks about mentality. What he means is the ability have the toughness to withstand and overcome disappointments while having the fortitude to press how advantages. Being smart and even cynical when needed. We have Emi’s shithousery which addresses some of it but look across the rest of the side. We are lacking players who are capable of being what the manager wants in key outfield positions. That will change this summer.
Had to check to see if you or I was on the wrong thread. I think it’s you TV.
Haha I was adding to the conversation a couple of pages back about bringing in certain types of player to improve us thus improving our overall performance as a club. I realize that it has fuck all to do with the topic itself in reality.
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Didn’t someone say we’re fourth since we very belatedly got rid of the incompetent scouse fraud?
If you remember Percy there was a lot on here telling us that we had made a seismic jump since Dean left after Gerrard's first 6. All sorts of conclusions were drawn to prove that Smithy was useless and Steven is the new Brian Clough.
So no doubt me and you and the rational one's will wait another 12 games before raising our hopes.
You did, and you were right.
He's already had 12 league games. Not enough to draw any long term conclusions, but certainly enough to see us be beyond the "new manager bounce".
We've won 7, lost 4 and drawn 1. Three of the losses were away to Liverpool and Man City and home to Arsenal (a game we were leading twice) - and we also beat Man Utd and Spurs. If these games had been the first 12 games of the season, we'd be in the top four, having already played FIVE of the six teams with realistic hopes of being in the top four themselves. And we've done all that without suddenly becoming a sparklingly entertaining side. Lots of good periods in games, some very good performances, and some pretty drab and forgettable ones too - as you'd expect from a side transitioning to a new style of play.
But if you can't let yourself get a LITTLE bit excited by Emery's start after that, when can you?
My Blues supporting mates and Cov supporting cousins are worried that he is the real deal - like when we got BFR and MON (yeah I know snakeoil). However they have been a useful barometer in the past
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The gist of the podcast is that without our current owners we would be now where near the premier league - and we could be another Portsmouth
there's a few clubs like that I imagine
Sheffield Wednesday Sunderland Derby
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
I think Spurs are catchable. Their recruitment has been pretty poor in recent times. Once Harry leaves/winds-down, they'll be in trouble.
Do Newcastle really belong on that list? They’ve won 1 game in the league this year. I think they over achieved earlier in the season but it’s started to catch up with them.
Yeah, when they were going through that terrific run of form earlier and folk were saying how great they were, I had visions of them experiencing something similar to the John Gregory/Yorke departure season. It's just ... the thing that seems to put sides like Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manc Utd* apart is they're just machines - even if they have a bit of a rubbish start, they end up just grinding out win after win as the season progresses and the other sides begin to tire. Looking at the table, I think the sides currently 6th-9th (Newcastle, Fulham, Brighton, Brentford) will all end up tailing off. Fully expect the final table to end up being some combination of Arsenal, Manc City, Manc Utd, and Liverpool. Spuds in 5th, Chelsea 6th.
In my mind, our chance this season is trying to finish as 'best of the rest', in 7th. We ought to give Chelsea a good run for their money - I don't think 6th is completely off the table as they're still stuttering, but I'm still expecting them to come good at some point soon-ish.
A place in Europe is our key in to this. We need a large enough squad with enough quality in it that we maintain momentum even when a few players are injured, out of form, etc. To me, we need European football if we're ever going to be able to challenge the Scab 6 - and realistically there's only one berth ... maybe 2 if Chelsea continue to make a hash of things ... available to do that. It's the only show in town, we have to be in it.
* I leave off Manc City because they just seem to not really have rough patches at all for the past ... decade?
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Realistically who out of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arse, Tottingham and Newcastle will we finish ahead of over 38 matches? One of them having a bad season like Chelsea possibly Newcastle yes but that's 6th at best.
I think Spurs are catchable. Their recruitment has been pretty poor in recent times. Once Harry leaves/winds-down, they'll be in trouble.
Do Newcastle really belong on that list? They’ve won 1 game in the league this year. I think they over achieved earlier in the season but it’s started to catch up with them.
Yeah, when they were going through that terrific run of form earlier and folk were saying how great they were, I had visions of them experiencing something similar to the John Gregory/Yorke departure season. It's just ... the thing that seems to put sides like Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manc Utd* apart is they're just machines - even if they have a bit of a rubbish start, they end up just grinding out win after win as the season progresses and the other sides begin to tire. Looking at the table, I think the sides currently 6th-9th (Newcastle, Fulham, Brighton, Brentford) will all end up tailing off. Fully expect the final table to end up being some combination of Arsenal, Manc City, Manc Utd, and Liverpool. Spuds in 5th, Chelsea 6th.
In my mind, our chance this season is trying to finish as 'best of the rest', in 7th. We ought to give Chelsea a good run for their money - I don't think 6th is completely off the table as they're still stuttering, but I'm still expecting them to come good at some point soon-ish.
A place in Europe is our key in to this. We need a large enough squad with enough quality in it that we maintain momentum even when a few players are injured, out of form, etc. To me, we need European football if we're ever going to be able to challenge the Scab 6 - and realistically there's only one berth ... maybe 2 if Chelsea continue to make a hash of things ... available to do that. It's the only show in town, we have to be in it.
* I leave off Manc City because they just seem to not really have rough patches at all for the past ... decade?
I'm not so sure. The problem with buying the number of players they have is that it then takes time to integrate those players into the squad. Add to that a manager who spent a few years producing a team at Brighton that looked good but didn't score enough goals and I can see them struggling to put any major runs of form together before the summer. I do expect 2-3 of the sides above us to have a bad patch though, Brentford in particular given they're likely to lose Toney for the rest of the season at some point soon.
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Sorry if I missed it, did anyone post the Swiss Ramble summary?
https://swissramble.substack.com/p/aston-villa-finances-202122