Wake me up when it's over

[eliotpollak]

So I take you are going with it is neccessay to protect the Jews from locals, hence the shame, and not it is neccesary to protect the locals from the same thing that MTA fans did in Greece and Amsterdam?

Yes because a) that’s what the police statement said and b) if the game was in London or Norwich or Plymouth, there wouldn’t be a problem, which implies the locals are the issues.

Can you show me a citation that it would not be a problem in London, Norwich or Plymouth? Also, you are ok with MTA fans attacking Muslims in other cities?

No, because it’s what’s called a hypothetical. I believe it to be true however. Israeli clubs have played in Stoke, Manchester, London before with no problems.
And no, bc I’m not in favour of anyone being attacked.

So because matches happened in 2011, 2002 and I'm assuming a similar time frame for the London matches, you believe a match taking place today would not have banned away supporters? Especially ones who have a small recent history of attacking locals of certain persuasions. Didn''t the national Police organisation who supposedly informed the HO it was going to be an away fans ban state they totally stood by the decision?

I don’t think the MP for Perry Bar was a big Zionist back then either, so I think it’s a fair comparison.
I don’t have any proof of attacking locals of any persuasions. Feel free to send. I have the official Dutch police report on my computer which I was sent bc I knew I’d get asked about it in media. Again, your sources no doubt far better than the Official. Police. Report.
I don’t know about national police but don’t see the relevance. They’re being asked about Aston, not the rest of the country.

[Sexual Ealing]

Edited to include the quote.

And that the police statement did not refer to any trouble they would be instigating, only their safety. So I’m not saying that, the police are.

I've read it twice now, and don't see where it says that. It does clearly say though that it's because of what happened at a previous Maccabi match.

West Midlands Police has a strong track record of successfully policing football matches and other high-risk public events.

We are committed to delivering fair and impartial policing, while balancing the public’s right to protest with our duty to ensure public safety.

Following a thorough assessment, we have classified the upcoming Aston Villa vs Maccabi Tel-Aviv fixture as high risk.

We have actively engaged with a wide range of local partners and community representatives in preparation for this fixture, and continue to participate in the Safety Advisory Group.

While the Safety Certificate is issued by Birmingham City Council, West Midlands Police supports the decision to prohibit away supporters from attending.

This decision is based on current intelligence and previous incidents, including violent clashes and hate crime offences that occurred during the 2024 UEFA Europa League match between Ajax and Maccabi Tel-Aviv in Amsterdam.

Based on our professional judgement, we believe this measure will help mitigate risks to public safety.

We remain steadfast in our support all affected communities, and reaffirm our zero-tolerance stance on hate crime in all its forms.

The second paragraph is key. ‘Balance the right to protest with public safety’. Who will be protesting. So whose safety is at risk?
When the same phrase was used to ban the UKIP or whatever they’re called march in Tower Hamlets tomorrow, whose safety was at risk. It wasn’t the marchers.

You might want to have a little think about the answer to the question you posed at the end there.

[Brend'Watkins]

Why have a Jewish Fan group anyway? We don’t have Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Hindu, Muslim, Baprist, Scientology or any other individual groups. We might have a Christian group but that’s a catch all if you believe in a particular God. It doesn’t do us any particular good or bad for that matter, all a bit pointless really We’re Villa fans first and foremost when we’re at the game and that’s all that matters.

[eliotpollak]

You think that bit is more key than:

This decision is based on current intelligence and previous incidents, including violent clashes and hate crime offences that occurred during the 2024 UEFA Europa League match between Ajax and Maccabi Tel-Aviv in Amsterdam

That looks pretty clear to me as the reason. Given that they say it's the reason.

Yes. That is the reason. They were attacked then, so would be attacked in Aston as well. We are in agreement.

[eliotpollak]

Why have a Jewish Fan group anyway? We don’t have Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Hindu, Muslim, Baprist, Scientology or any other individual groups. We might have a Christian group but that’s a catch all if you believe in a particular God. It doesn’t do us any particular good or bad for that matter, all a bit pointless really We’re Villa fans first and foremost when we’re at the game and that’s all that matters.

I believe there are other races and religions that have Villa fan groups. But I broadly agree with your point.
Having said that, I think the clubs find it useful when they have to deal with issues of anti-semitism or homophobia (Villa and Proud) to have trusted people they can talk to and get advice from.

[Somniloquism]

So you have never seen the Amsterdam footage or Greece footage? Surprised being as surely you would want all the information at hand being as you got the police report. Any chance of posting a link to it somewhere?

[eliotpollak]

So you have never seen the Amsterdam footage or Greece footage? Surprised being as surely you would want all the information at hand being as you got the police report. Any chance of posting a link to it somewhere?

Not sure ten secs of footage is instructive of an entire evening of pogroms. Yes - I will find the report and check I have permission to share. But if you Google it, you will get the idea.

I need to sign off for Shabbat shortly, but I remain bewildered that of the following two options:
A) Mossad whilst fighting a seven front war set up a potemkin Villa fan group, got the club to post Passover greetings, just in case they would play in the Europa League against Macabbi Tel Aviv, and then they could have representatives going on tv, to essentially say very little
Or
B) There is a Jewish Aston Villa supporters group, which doesn’t have an online presence for security reasons, like 90% of Jewish institutions in Europe. And has been mentioned by the club in socials, and confirmed by the FSA.

many are still picking A. So yes, we can discuss anti-semitism very happily here. There is no other explanation.

[cdbearsfan]

Could probably have all saved ourselves a bit of time if he'd just posted "I'm right and everyone who disagrees with me is antisemitic" in his first post.

[eliotpollak]

Also to clarify, I’m not saying the violence would be all one-way. It would clearly kick off in all directions, as it did in Amsterdam.

[Drummond]

Are you saying there's no issue with the Maccabi fans' behaviour?

I’m saying there is no more reason to ban them due to their behaviour than there would be 90% of clubs from Europe.
And that the police statement did not refer to any trouble they would be instigating, only their safety. So I’m not saying that, the police are.

This from an article in The Guardian a couple of days ago:

'The police assessment led to the fixture on 6 November at Villa Park in Birmingham being classed as high risk. The intelligence and risk assessments that led to that conclusion and ban have not been made public.

But sources with knowledge of the details of the intelligence and risk assessments have told the Guardian that the Maccabi fans were considered likely to be the perpetrators of trouble.

According to sources, police intelligence said:

Scores of extreme Maccabi fans with a past history of violence and shouting “racist taunts” were expected to travel to the Birmingham game.

Dutch police told their British counterparts that the Maccabi fans had instigated trouble in Amsterdam at a game last year.

They had randomly picked Muslims in Amsterdam to attack. That led to reprisal violence with some Dutch Jews attacked.

A huge Dutch police effort, involving 5,000 officers across three days, was needed to quell the trouble.

A community impact assessment by West Midlands police recorded that some Jewish people wanted the Maccabi fans banned because of the trouble that might ensue if they attended.

Any trouble started by Maccabi fans attending the Birmingham game could lead to reprisals from local people and further trouble.

The process did not consider whether the ban on fans of the Israeli club could be criticised as antisemitic itself or surrendering to antisemitism.

The ban on Maccabi fans was made by Birmingham’s Safety Advisory Group. It was decided after an intelligence assessment was conducted by West Midlands police, shared with the national UK football policing unit.

The UK football policing unit is understood to have backed the conclusions reached by local police.'

---------------------------
Lisa Nandy in Parliament the other day highlighted that it wasn't right that there should be a ban on fans because they couldn't be kept safe, but she didn't say that was the only reason for the ban. And nor have the police. I think it's wrong to suggest that is the case, when it clearly isn't the only factor (and it shouldn't be a factor at all).

The main problem as I see it, is that the Israeli government's actions are such that many Jewish people are stuck in a hugely unenviable position. Because what can people stand for, if not their country (especially when it is so intrinsically linked with their religion/ethnicity)? And thus we are in the position we are in.

[eliotpollak]

Could probably have all saved ourselves a bit of time if he'd just posted "I'm right and everyone who disagrees with me is antisemitic" in his first post.

I don’t think I have said that. And I’m not right because I’m right. I’m right because I’ve been at the forefront of all the conversations about this for the past 2 months, so it is possible I know more than you about it, hard as that is to accept.
In the last 48 hrs alone, I’ve spoken to Villa, the FSA, the Govt’s Anti-Semitism Tsar or whatever Lord Mann is called, the President of the Jewish Board of Deputies who has been liaising with the Home Sec and the Police.
I appreciate that isn’t comparable to reading tweets by Owen Jones or Tommy Robinson.

[Drummond]

So, given all of those conversations, why isn't the information made public, because that would surely help the general population understand better.

[eliotpollak]

So, given all of those conversations, why isn't the information made public, because that would surely help the general population understand better.

The club itself have no responsibility either way as they hold a safety certificate at the mercy of the SAG , so can’t go against that. They therefore have nothing to say other than implement a tough policy on resells.
The FSA have been in touch with the people who questioned us. I’ve seen the emails.
And yes, there has been pressure for the police to publish their report. I don’t know why they are reluctant

[Small Rodent]

I'm still annoyed that on page 3 of this thread Domesday Book has been spelled "Doomsday Book".

[cdbearsfan]

I'm more annoyed that someone think this thread has reached beyond page two.