Wake me up when it's over

[dave.woodhall]

To deal with a few of these points.

There are other, non-London, Jewish supporters clubs, Leeds and the two Manchesters for example, who don't seem to have any problems being publicised.

It's good to see you have no time for Tommy Robinson. Have you said so as publicly as you've condemned others?

Do you accept that criticising your stance is possible without being Anti-Semitic and mentally ill?

And how, given your privacy, were you "inundated" by Villa supporters within hours of the ban being announced?

[eliotpollak]

Have a guess what this one's about.

https://heroesandvillains.info/2025/10/21/wake-me-up-when-its-over/

Jewish Villans weren’t against the ban, we supported it. We haven’t suddenly popped up, but are now in our second season. And Andrew Fox is a lifelong Villa fan who did a bungee jump from the Holte last year with the Villa Foundation.
Appreciate we live in an age where ignorance of a topic is no barrier to writing authoritatively about it.

Funny way of supporting the ban when the statement was about how the club had submitted to nazism and then your "president" went on every news channel that invited him on to remonstrate about it.

We support the ban but find it highly regrettable. It’s necessary, but shameful particularly for the city. It’s a nuanced position. I apologise for bringing subtlety into such a simple argument.

So I take you are going with it is neccessay to protect the Jews from locals, hence the shame, and not it is neccesary to protect the locals from the same thing that MTA fans did in Greece and Amsterdam?

Yes because a) that’s what the police statement said and b) if the game was in London or Norwich or Plymouth, there wouldn’t be a problem, which implies the locals are the issues.

[Dave]

General rule - people whose twitter feed is purely one sided and extreme, are probably not worth relying on.

Would you include Andrew Fox in that description? As the look that I took at it when he started appearing, didn't seem all that "both-sidesey" to me.

He’s criticised the Israeli govt and their war aims repeatedly through the conflict. Just read his substack.

The Twitter feed that I read wasn't. It was very heavy on "shame on Birmingham for not being able to look after Jewish football supporters" and very little about the "protect Villa supporters from Maccabi hooligans" that a balanced read of the situation would surely need.

Maybe his Substack has that stuff (although as you've pivoted to broader commentary about the conflict rather than this football match, I'm guessing it doesn't). But if that is where one finds the more balanced commentary, how do you know that the long-form social media of those you are criticising isn't similarly nuanced?

[Drummond]

My take is that a ban is appropriate. It's regrettable that some have labelled that ban as antisemitic, because by doing so it ups the anti and it certainly enflames the situation.

There are extreme views on both sides of whichever argument there happens to be; Islamaphobes, Antisemites, they can all piss off as far as I'm concerned. I want to go to a football match, take my 10 year old boy and feel safe. I don't want to hear chants about there being no children in Gaza, about the Holocaust or anything else of that nature. I've never heard a song or chant at Villa Park of that nature either. You can bet that if Maccabi had been allowed to attend, that we would have done.

Given the population in and around Villa Park, and the diversity of the supporter base, I find it hugely disappointing that there are many claiming to be victims, when the reality is that the families of the 1200 killed by Hamas, or the families of the 64000 that the IDF have killed are the ones really suffering.

I've heard some state that Israel and it's teams  should be banned from international competition, and that idea has merit, given the UN judgement that Genocide has occurred and looking at other examples of sporting bans (Russia being an obvious example).

I'm not in the least bit bothered about a Jewish Supporters Club, or any other, like the more famous Punjabi one, I'm pleased that people can be in a club and be proud of it.

What's really difficult is that people on both sides are conflating the issues, and accusing the other side of things that in the end just besmirches the name of Aston Villa.

[eliotpollak]

To deal with a few of these points.

There are other, non-London, Jewish supporters clubs, Leeds and the two Manchesters for example, who don't seem to have any problems being publicised.

It's good to see you have no time for Tommy Robinson. Have you said so as publicly as you've condemned others?

Do you accept that criticising your stance is possible without being Anti-Semitic and mentally ill?

And how, given your privacy, were you "inundated" by Villa supporters within hours of the ban being announced?

Again, some do, some don’t. Given the response to our public appearances (death threats included), our decision appears vindicated.

I don’t get this obsession with Tommy Robinson. Have you condemned Nick Griffin recently. Why’s he relevant. He hasn’t mentioned Jewish Villans.
Owen Jones, Gary Spedding. These are the racists we are tackling at the moment.

Which stance - I did ask this earlier. Can’t really answer unless you tell me. I do think forensically examining our group and our language is a sign of mental illness and/or anti-semitism, especially as we haven’t said anything particularly controversial.

As I said, I post on other forums, as do many of our members. People posting under our tweets or DMing us. ‘Inundated’ is obviously a relative term for a supporters group, that usually gets one email a month at best.

[eliotpollak]

General rule - people whose twitter feed is purely one sided and extreme, are probably not worth relying on.

Would you include Andrew Fox in that description? As the look that I took at it when he started appearing, didn't seem all that "both-sidesey" to me.

He’s criticised the Israeli govt and their war aims repeatedly through the conflict. Just read his substack.

The Twitter feed that I read wasn't. It was very heavy on "shame on Birmingham for not being able to look after Jewish football supporters" and very little about the "protect Villa supporters from Maccabi hooligans" that a balanced read of the situation would surely need.

Maybe his Substack has that stuff (although as you've pivoted to broader commentary about the conflict rather than this football match, I'm guessing it doesn't). But if that is where one finds the more balanced commentary, how do you know that the long-form social media of those you are criticising isn't similarly nuanced?

The police statement as well as the members of WMP who we have spoken to have been clear as to where the threat was. This nonsense about Maccabi hooligans is propaganda, at least in the context of this ban. Again, talk to the police like we have. Why just repeat nonsense you’ve heard from Tommy Robinson type figures. Talk to the FSA. Talk to Aston Villa. Talk to WMP. It all comes back to the same issue. You don’t know of what you so emphatically claim.
(So I’m not sure he needs to be two-sided on that.)

I meant generally about the conflict though. He isn’t one-sided.

[Somniloquism]

So I take you are going with it is neccessay to protect the Jews from locals, hence the shame, and not it is neccesary to protect the locals from the same thing that MTA fans did in Greece and Amsterdam?

Yes because a) that’s what the police statement said and b) if the game was in London or Norwich or Plymouth, there wouldn’t be a problem, which implies the locals are the issues.

Can you show me a citation that it would not be a problem in London, Norwich or Plymouth? Also, you are ok with MTA fans attacking Muslims in other cities?

[Drummond]

Are you saying there's no issue with the Maccabi fans' behaviour?

[eliotpollak]

So I take you are going with it is neccessay to protect the Jews from locals, hence the shame, and not it is neccesary to protect the locals from the same thing that MTA fans did in Greece and Amsterdam?

Yes because a) that’s what the police statement said and b) if the game was in London or Norwich or Plymouth, there wouldn’t be a problem, which implies the locals are the issues.

Can you show me a citation that it would not be a problem in London, Norwich or Plymouth? Also, you are ok with MTA fans attacking Muslims in other cities?

No, because it’s what’s called a hypothetical. I believe it to be true however. Israeli clubs have played in Stoke, Manchester, London before with no problems.
And no, bc I’m not in favour of anyone being attacked.

[eliotpollak]

Are you saying there's no issue with the Maccabi fans' behaviour?

I’m saying there is no more reason to ban them due to their behaviour than there would be 90% of clubs from Europe.
And that the police statement did not refer to any trouble they would be instigating, only their safety. So I’m not saying that, the police are.

[Dave]

And that the police statement did not refer to any trouble they would be instigating, only their safety. So I’m not saying that, the police are.

I've read it twice now, and don't see where it says that. It does clearly say though that it's because of what happened at a previous Maccabi match.

West Midlands Police has a strong track record of successfully policing football matches and other high-risk public events.

We are committed to delivering fair and impartial policing, while balancing the public’s right to protest with our duty to ensure public safety.

Following a thorough assessment, we have classified the upcoming Aston Villa vs Maccabi Tel-Aviv fixture as high risk.

We have actively engaged with a wide range of local partners and community representatives in preparation for this fixture, and continue to participate in the Safety Advisory Group.

While the Safety Certificate is issued by Birmingham City Council, West Midlands Police supports the decision to prohibit away supporters from attending.

This decision is based on current intelligence and previous incidents, including violent clashes and hate crime offences that occurred during the 2024 UEFA Europa League match between Ajax and Maccabi Tel-Aviv in Amsterdam.

Based on our professional judgement, we believe this measure will help mitigate risks to public safety.

We remain steadfast in our support all affected communities, and reaffirm our zero-tolerance stance on hate crime in all its forms.

[Somniloquism]

So I take you are going with it is neccessay to protect the Jews from locals, hence the shame, and not it is neccesary to protect the locals from the same thing that MTA fans did in Greece and Amsterdam?

Yes because a) that’s what the police statement said and b) if the game was in London or Norwich or Plymouth, there wouldn’t be a problem, which implies the locals are the issues.

Can you show me a citation that it would not be a problem in London, Norwich or Plymouth? Also, you are ok with MTA fans attacking Muslims in other cities?

No, because it’s what’s called a hypothetical. I believe it to be true however. Israeli clubs have played in Stoke, Manchester, London before with no problems.
And no, bc I’m not in favour of anyone being attacked.

So because matches happened in 2011, 2002 and I'm assuming a similar time frame for the London matches, you believe a match taking place today would not have banned away supporters? Especially ones who have a small recent history of attacking locals of certain persuasions. Didn''t the national Police organisation who supposedly informed the HO it was going to be an away fans ban state they totally stood by the decision?

[eliotpollak]

And that the police statement did not refer to any trouble they would be instigating, only their safety. So I’m not saying that, the police are.

I've read it twice now, and don't see where it says that. It does clearly say though that it's because of what happened at a previous Maccabi match.

West Midlands Police has a strong track record of successfully policing football matches and other high-risk public events.

We are committed to delivering fair and impartial policing, while balancing the public’s right to protest with our duty to ensure public safety.

Following a thorough assessment, we have classified the upcoming Aston Villa vs Maccabi Tel-Aviv fixture as high risk.

We have actively engaged with a wide range of local partners and community representatives in preparation for this fixture, and continue to participate in the Safety Advisory Group.

While the Safety Certificate is issued by Birmingham City Council, West Midlands Police supports the decision to prohibit away supporters from attending.

This decision is based on current intelligence and previous incidents, including violent clashes and hate crime offences that occurred during the 2024 UEFA Europa League match between Ajax and Maccabi Tel-Aviv in Amsterdam.

Based on our professional judgement, we believe this measure will help mitigate risks to public safety.

We remain steadfast in our support all affected communities, and reaffirm our zero-tolerance stance on hate crime in all its forms.

The second paragraph is key. ‘Balance the right to protest with public safety’. Who will be protesting. So whose safety is at risk?
When the same phrase was used to ban the UKIP or whatever they’re called march in Tower Hamlets tomorrow, whose safety was at risk. It wasn’t the marchers.

[Dave]

You think that bit is more key than:

This decision is based on current intelligence and previous incidents, including violent clashes and hate crime offences that occurred during the 2024 UEFA Europa League match between Ajax and Maccabi Tel-Aviv in Amsterdam

That looks pretty clear to me as the reason. Given that they say it's the reason.

The people who are "at risk" is the public. Normal Villa fans who just want to go to the match. Food van owners. People who live there. Pub staff. Bus drivers. Some Maccabi fans would almost certainly fall into that bracket as well.

And many wouldn't, because they would be the ones causing the ruck that WMP are trying to avoid.

[oldhill_avfc]

Reading this ranting on either side, I can see now why WMP and the safety group were right all along.

MTA fans would go all out to provoke a reaction.  Local pro Palestine Muslim groups won’t hesitate in providing one.  In fact the latter are planning something anyway, which to an extent backs up the points being made by EliotPolack.

We’re (Villa, liberal thinking/centre politics, white Christian by upbringing and social ethos) caught in the middle.  We don’t want anti semitism or Islamophobia.  We accept peaceful protest, lobbying to change political opinion and the outcome of free elections. 

If this isn’t enough for either side then 8 don’t know what the answer is.