Manchester Utd v Aston Villa Post-Match Thread

[PeterWithe]

I think that's another example of us not being street smart, Maatsen's body language very apologetic and Ramsey should have been encouraging a yellow card for him diving.

But yes, game lost by then any road.

[The Edge]

I think that's another example of us not being street smart, Maatsen's body language very apologetic and Ramsey should have been encouraging a yellow card for him diving.

But yes, game lost by then any road.

Now this I agree with and it goes back a long long way. Think back the Enkelman at The Sty, 23 years ago no less and THAT goal. No keeper playing for any top club would of done what he did that night. All he had to do was laugh casually and throw the ball straight back to Mellberg. Instead he put his hands together on his head and had a look of "oh no what have I done" on his face. He literally convinced the ref to award the goal. It seems that we have learnt nothing over those years.

[paul_e]

I talked about this on Sunday, Amad clearly creates the contact by stepping across and stopping, giving Maatsen nowhere to go. He either barges into him and gives a pen and risks a red card or he tries to stop and does what he did.

Just like the Duran red earlier in the season sometimes contact is unavoidable in a contact sport.

What really pisses me off is that this sort of "there was contact it's a foul" never applies when a big twat of a centre back gives a striker a 2 handed shove in the back as they jump for a header, even though it happens a lot more and has far more impact on the game than these tangle of legs type incidents.

[Beard82]

The problem is the incositency.

Looks the the non red in the FA cup final, compared to Emi's sending off.   

The standard of refereeing needs to improve - and the subjectivity in the rules needs to be reduced.  Or we just go back to having a referee decide it all.

We currently end up the worst of both worlds.  A game that is full of delays and still plenty of refereeing mistakes. 

[tomd2103]

Twat. I was going to add as much as the focus is on the key moment it’s shit like this, their penalty that gets glossed over time and again. Not just against us as much as it feels that way, but against everyone.

https://x.com/b6nigel/status/1927112042806124893?s=46

Clear from the ref's reaction there that he didn't really know what had happened and was speaking to someone on his mic.

[Somniloquism]

The FA Cup non-red problem was the ref and more precisely the lino missed it initially. Attwell saw the keeper touch it but as Ludo played as if nothing untoward had happened he probably thought it was in the box or Ludo had kicked it instead.  The lino was 10 yards back and not actually looking so couldn't call anything. Now either VAR fucked up by not sending the ref to the monitors for a potential red card offence, or because it wasn't violent conduct and the ref didn't call the foul, it might not have been able to intervene. They have been involved for DOGSO before but mainly when the ref has called the initial foul but missed the potential GSO (the other month against Citeh when the keeper was well out of goal and a long range shot was on comes to mind). I don't remember any time they have been involved in a DOGSO when a foul happened outside the box and not initially called a foul by the ref.

I actually think the FA Cup match swung the decision yesterday. Martinez definitely tackles the player and it should definitely be a foul called. But the ball being kicked to the side and away from goal really reduced the GSO option and the definite red especially with a defender running back to goal. But as the defender running back was Torres and the ref would have read on here that he's shit, I suppose the covering defender needs to be removed. But then the striker was Holjund so.......

I not stating it wasn't a red, just showing the decisions are as subjective as ever so consistency is hard to call for.

Still waiting on comments from Webb for both of those decisions and the release of the audio though.......

[VillaTim]

I am sick of hearing/reading the barrage of comments along the lines of 'one decision doesn't make your season', 'it was a mistake - get over it' from Talk Sport, Jonathan Wilson to name but two. The cold light of day fact is that, despite being battered, despite being down to ten men  we had somehow weathered the storm and were finally putting something together when 'that decision' was made. That's what made the difference (probably) between CL and EL with all its implications, not the previous 38 games.

Over a season we weren't good enough . We should have been going into Sunday home and dry .

How many different days and ways can you keep saying this.  It fucking pointless and shows zero understanding of the context of our season.  It's obvious that if we had scored more points by 4.00 on Sunday we wouldn't have needed to beat Manure but we hadn't so when a part time premier league referee rocks up and steals a potentially winning goal with 15 minutes to go in a game we only potentially needed to draw that act becomes a major reason why lost.  Yes we should have dusted ourselves off and focused - Unai's favourite word but he lost it too - i agree with Rugby twat on that point.  Unai and our players lost focus.  But if the goal is given none of that is likely to happen.  So not having got enough points by 4.00 pm is irrelevant!

But it's them , at that place and we know what happens there . Since the fixtures came out last year people have regularly been saying I hope we don't need anything there on the last day . Well we did and it went as per expectations i.e. Down the pan .

[The Edge]

We are in a really bad situation with match officials. They're told not to put the flag up for offside and let it play out so var can decide and now we have a Forest player seriously injured. When do you stop a game? When don't you? Then there's penalty's for hand ball. I mean who bloody knows any more? They've got themselves in an absolute pickle with VAR and to make matter's worse they have deliberately altered the wording of the rules to give themselves wriggle room to get off the hook whenever they balls it up like they did in our game Sunday. VAR should be an asset but they've turned it into some kind of hard to watch freakshow with their often baffling and convoluted use of it.
PMGOL, VAR, or rather their use of it, Howard Webb and his troupe of dodgy officials are all not fit for purpose. Time to tear the whole thing down and start again.

[Toronto Villa]

Twat. I was going to add as much as the focus is on the key moment it’s shit like this, their penalty that gets glossed over time and again. Not just against us as much as it feels that way, but against everyone.

https://x.com/b6nigel/status/1927112042806124893?s=46

Clear from the ref's reaction there that he didn't really know what had happened and was speaking to someone on his mic.

The conversation with VAR went a little like this.

VAR: Thomas if you’re not sure give the penalty because we always give penalties to “United” at The Theatre of Dreams, and especially against Aston Villa.

Bramall: duh…ok (Goofy voice)

[paul_e]

The FA Cup non-red problem was the ref and more precisely the lino missed it initially. Attwell saw the keeper touch it but as Ludo played as if nothing untoward had happened he probably thought it was in the box or Ludo had kicked it instead.  The lino was 10 yards back and not actually looking so couldn't call anything. Now either VAR fucked up by not sending the ref to the monitors for a potential red card offence, or because it wasn't violent conduct and the ref didn't call the foul, it might not have been able to intervene. They have been involved for DOGSO before but mainly when the ref has called the initial foul but missed the potential GSO (the other month against Citeh when the keeper was well out of goal and a long range shot was on comes to mind). I don't remember any time they have been involved in a DOGSO when a foul happened outside the box and not initially called a foul by the ref.

I actually think the FA Cup match swung the decision yesterday. Martinez definitely tackles the player and it should definitely be a foul called. But the ball being kicked to the side and away from goal really reduced the GSO option and the definite red especially with a defender running back to goal. But as the defender running back was Torres and the ref would have read on here that he's shit, I suppose the covering defender needs to be removed. But then the striker was Holjund so.......

I not stating it wasn't a red, just showing the decisions are as subjective as ever so consistency is hard to call for.

Still waiting on comments from Webb for both of those decisions and the release of the audio though.......

I agree with most of this. I think it was an orange card situation really, the touch from Holjund was awful and forced him really wide to the point where it was a tough chance if he'd been allowed to run through, which should be a small factor. However Emi made it look a clear red by being so fucking blatant about what he was doing. If he'd turned away and made it look like he was trying to chase after the ball I think it may well have been a yellow, and he definitely had enough time to do exactly that. He was obviously trying to make out that he just couldn't get out of the way and so he braced himself for impact but you'd have to be a fucking idiot to buy it.

[tomd2103]

Twat. I was going to add as much as the focus is on the key moment it’s shit like this, their penalty that gets glossed over time and again. Not just against us as much as it feels that way, but against everyone.

https://x.com/b6nigel/status/1927112042806124893?s=46

Clear from the ref's reaction there that he didn't really know what had happened and was speaking to someone on his mic.

The conversation with VAR went a little like this.

VAR: Thomas if you’re not sure give the penalty because we always give penalties to “United” at The Theatre of Dreams, and especially against Aston Villa.

Bramall: duh…ok (Goofy voice)

VAR has changed things in that regard.  Not saying it happened in this case, but it's much easier to give a penalty now knowing VAR can check it and the 'clear and obvious' approach means there is very little chance it will be overturned, as opposed to facing the ignominy of being sent to a screen and having to reverse your decision if you don't give it. 

[edgysatsuma89]

The FA Cup non-red problem was the ref and more precisely the lino missed it initially. Attwell saw the keeper touch it but as Ludo played as if nothing untoward had happened he probably thought it was in the box or Ludo had kicked it instead.  The lino was 10 yards back and not actually looking so couldn't call anything. Now either VAR fucked up by not sending the ref to the monitors for a potential red card offence, or because it wasn't violent conduct and the ref didn't call the foul, it might not have been able to intervene. They have been involved for DOGSO before but mainly when the ref has called the initial foul but missed the potential GSO (the other month against Citeh when the keeper was well out of goal and a long range shot was on comes to mind). I don't remember any time they have been involved in a DOGSO when a foul happened outside the box and not initially called a foul by the ref.

I actually think the FA Cup match swung the decision yesterday. Martinez definitely tackles the player and it should definitely be a foul called. But the ball being kicked to the side and away from goal really reduced the GSO option and the definite red especially with a defender running back to goal. But as the defender running back was Torres and the ref would have read on here that he's shit, I suppose the covering defender needs to be removed. But then the striker was Holjund so.......

I not stating it wasn't a red, just showing the decisions are as subjective as ever so consistency is hard to call for.

Still waiting on comments from Webb for both of those decisions and the release of the audio though.......

I agree with most of this. I think it was an orange card situation really, the touch from Holjund was awful and forced him really wide to the point where it was a tough chance if he'd been allowed to run through, which should be a small factor. However Emi made it look a clear red by being so fucking blatant about what he was doing. If he'd turned away and made it look like he was trying to chase after the ball I think it may well have been a yellow, and he definitely had enough time to do exactly that. He was obviously trying to make out that he just couldn't get out of the way and so he braced himself for impact but you'd have to be a fucking idiot to buy it.

Completely agree. I think Emi could have quite easily made it look accidental and he really, really didn't.

[Somniloquism]

Twat. I was going to add as much as the focus is on the key moment it’s shit like this, their penalty that gets glossed over time and again. Not just against us as much as it feels that way, but against everyone.

https://x.com/b6nigel/status/1927112042806124893?s=46

Clear from the ref's reaction there that he didn't really know what had happened and was speaking to someone on his mic.

Lino and fourth official if anything like the audio released for the Duran red card. You know the one that beforehand was being praised on not rushing to judgement and then later the audio showed both the lino and fourth both said accidental and then the ref saw he was holding his thigh and rushed for his red card at the spur of the moment. And of course VAR just looked at the contact and sided with him.

Another one that would have been nice hearing the audio for though as lino called nothing (do they even flag for fouls in front of them anymore?)

[Rigadon]

Former Newcastle and Aston Villa goalkeer Shay Given said Bramall will "learn" and "grow" from this situation. "Let's not forget Thomas Bramall is a human being," he added.
"I find it more difficult when VAR with all different angles make wrong decisions. This guy has just made a human error, it's more forgivable."

More wise words from the former Newcastle goalie (previously castigating Mings for being fouled and not being sent off v Bournemouth). 

[LeeB]

Twat. I was going to add as much as the focus is on the key moment it’s shit like this, their penalty that gets glossed over time and again. Not just against us as much as it feels that way, but against everyone.

https://x.com/b6nigel/status/1927112042806124893?s=46

Clear from the ref's reaction there that he didn't really know what had happened and was speaking to someone on his mic.

The conversation with VAR went a little like this.

VAR: Thomas if you’re not sure give the penalty because we always give penalties to “United” at The Theatre of Dreams, and especially against Aston Villa.

Bramall: duh…ok (Goofy voice)

More like:

"Just give the peno, if its 2-0 they can't say your mistake was decisive"