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Author Topic: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.  (Read 779140 times)

Offline eamonn

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4005 on: June 24, 2024, 03:03:13 PM »
BBC's main man in the sports department is on to us...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c5111jg2r3yo

Quote

Why Premier League’s 'swap weekend' could be another PSR loophole


Dan Roan
BBC sports editor
@danroan

Everton, Aston Villa, Chelsea and Newcastle fans might have woken up on Saturday and mistakenly thought it was transfer deadline day.

Lesser-known academy products Tim Iroegbunam and Lewis Dobbin were exchanged in separate deals between Everton and Villa for a reported £9m each. Then BBC Sport reported Villa were close to selling another academy youngster - teenager Omari Kellyman - to Chelsea for a reported £19m.

Next, there was confirmation that going the other way is Chelsea’s homegrown Dutch defender Ian Maatsen for £37.5m, in another separate transaction.

Everton meanwhile, were also said to be interested in Newcastle United’s highly rated Gambian teenager Yankuba Minteh. At the same time, Newcastle were closing in on a deal to sign striker Dominic Calvert-Lewin from Everton.

But it wasn't 1 September, it was a normal Saturday in June. And one thing all four of these busy clubs have in common? Concerns over their Premier League 'Profit and Sustainability' (PSR) position as they approach the 30 June accounting deadline.

This flurry of transfer activity immediately drew scepticism, but has also annoyed some rival clubs.

And BBC Sport knows of at least one club that is so concerned it intends to raise the matter with the Premier League.

No-one is breaking the rules, but questions have been raised over valuations, the use of young players, and whether this has highlighted a loophole in the league’s PSR system which can be used to limit losses.

What was the reaction, and why?
Introduced with the intention of boosting financial stability and encouraging clubs to live within their means, PSR losses are limited to £105m over a three-year period. Critics say these regulations also protect the richest clubs by stifling ambition and investment by those who want to challenge the status quo.

The transfers sparked intense speculation on social media that certain clubs were working in tandem to strike deals that would improve their balance sheets as a means of avoiding a breach of PSR limits.

It is easy to see why some might suggest this.

First, there is the timing. With clubs having to submit their accounts by 30 June, the end of the Premier League's financial year - effectively its accounting deadline - is just a few days away.

When a club sells a player, any profit is recorded in its entirety in that year's accounts, with homegrown academy players generating 'pure' profit.

In contrast, the amount paid by the buying club is spread out - using an accounting practise called amortisation - over the length of the contract.

So if two clubs agree to sell players to each other, especially academy players, it could provide a significant financial boost.

Secondly, all the clubs involved reportedly face challenges meeting PSR limits.

Everton breached the rules for both 2021-22 and 2022-23, suffering two separate points deductions. And with losses of £90m in their last financial results, they confirmed players will be sold this summer.

Villa have insisted they will avoid a PSR breach. But after recording a £119m loss last season, were thought to need to sell players - such as Douglas Luiz - in order to do so, despite qualifying for the Champions League.

They also recently attempted (and failed) to have the level of permitted losses raised, and have warned they could make a formal complaint against the Premier League over rules they regard as restrictive.

Chelsea have also said they are confident they will comply with the rules. But having recorded a pre-tax loss of £90m in their most recent accounts, some experts have suggested they may also have to sell players if they are to avoid getting in trouble.

Newcastle United meanwhile - despite the vast wealth of their Saudi owners - chose not to sign any players in the January transfer window over worries they may be at risk of breaching PSR, with the club admitting they may have to sell a top player to comply.

The third area of debate is the valuations of some of the players. Take Kellyman for instance. Chelsea rate the England Under-20 international very highly.

But is it understandable they were prepared to spend £19m on a player that Villa picked up for £600,000 from Derby County’s academy two years ago, and who has made just six first-team appearances, totalling 150 minutes of action? Such a valuation is great news for Villa of course, who can register almost £19m of profit in this year's accounts.

The clubs concerned could point out that huge fees for young players is nothing new, and in time can often be vindicated.

Eyebrows were raised when Chelsea splashed out £42m on Cole Palmer last year despite limited opportunities at Manchester City. It now looks like very smart business. As does the £45m that Newcastle paid for Anthony Gordon - the club’s second most expensive signing - despite just seven goals from 78 games for Everton.

"Working out a market value for a former academy player is very difficult, as ultimately it is what both the buying and selling club decide, based on their future expectations of that player's contribution on the pitch," football finance expert Kieran Maguire told BBC Sport.

"Player 'swaps' can be mutually beneficial for two or more clubs who need to make a quick profit."

Maguire lays out a hypothetical scenario in which 'Club A’ has a former academy player who it would normally look to sell for £8m, while 'Club B' has a former academy player it would usually value at £10m.

"However, if a swap deal is made there is nothing to stop the 'official' price to be £28m and £30m," explains Maguire.

"This way there is still a cash settlement of £2m, but the profits in the accounts are £28m and £30m - fantastic for PSR. The additional cost of signing both players is then spread using amortisation over the contract life of five years, so is effectively kicked down the road.

"Given that it is so difficult to determine the market price for a player, the swap market can be seen as exploiting a weakness in the rules, but is not necessarily breaching anything."

There is no suggestion that this is what any of the clubs have done in the deals outlined above. But the PSR system does seem to encourage the ramping up of valuations if it suits both parties in the short-term at least.

This would not be the first loophole that clubs could exploit to meet PSR.

Earlier this year it emerged Chelsea had controversially eased their losses by selling two Stamford Bridge hotels to a sister company for more than £70m. Some other clubs were said to be unhappy.

But earlier this month, the Premier League failed in an attempt to stop the use of profits from the sale of fixed assets like training grounds and stadiums being used in PSR calculations, with nine clubs voting against any rule change.

Perhaps spooked by the points deductions that Everton and Nottingham Forest were hit by last season, several were clearly happier for a potential workaround to the rules to remain in place.

On the other hand, the Premier League did close another loophole last year when it capped amortisation at five years, in line with Uefa, after Chelsea offered eight-year contracts, enabling them to spread the cost of transfers over that period. Chelsea were among the clubs to back the change.

BBC Sport approached Chelsea, Villa, Everton and Newcastle United to ask if they would like to respond officially to suggestions that valuations in their recent transfer deals were 'convenient' for both parties when it came to navigating PSR.

All declined to comment, but privately, sources at two of the clubs robustly defended the valuations of the players they had done business over, referencing similar amounts paid for young players in recent seasons. They made the point that a player value was ultimately dictated by what a buying club was willing to pay.

But what of other Premier League clubs? We spoke to several and they seemed split. One told BBC Sport that the deals were "wrong and should not be allowed". Another said the transfers "made a mockery of the rules" and that it would be asking the Premier League for its observations.

Others were more relaxed, accepting that the transfers were ultimately within the rules. However, one did admit the 'optics' created by the transfers were unhelpful, and that the controversy only served to emphasise that PSR was too blunt an instrument, and was failing to help clubs to invest and create the best league in the world.

The Premier League also declined to comment. But if clubs try to circumvent its rules, they could be in breach, and it can review any transfer to check that it is being done on an arm's length basis. If it is not, the league can assess it for 'Fair Market Value'.

Questions have also been raised over whether all this highlights a risk that clubs may use their academies to produce players that can then simply be traded to help meet PSR, rather than develop them for their first team.

According to one source that acts on behalf of footballers, "this is the latest example of players being used partly as commercial assets rather than employees".

Some clubs that we spoke to, however, made the point that academies have often been used to develop talent with a view to selling it on, rather than prioritising future talent for the first team.

The PFA declined to comment, but it is understood to share a concern that the current regulations could encourage clubs to find creative ways to stay within the rules, and that this will often impact players.

PSR was already highly contentious of course, given the growing list of clubs falling foul of it. The sense is that these deals - amid claims of 'gaming' the system - have ensured they have become even more divisive.

And with new financial rules being trialled from next season, they will add to the pressure on the Premier League to ensure that next time there are no unintended consequences.


Offline Percy McCarthy

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4006 on: June 24, 2024, 03:03:27 PM »
To be honest, i dont think too many people on here would have valued Kellyman at £19m. It suprised me.

It doesn't surprise me. He is very highly rated by a lot of people.

Emery seemed to like him too as before his season ending injury, he was always in & around the first team from when he was 17/18...

Honestly thought he didn't look anywhere near ready in the games he featured in last season.  A good pre season this summer around the senior squad might have changed that of course.

Which doesn't shock me at 17/18, but that doesn't stop the potential he has.

Chuckwemeka didn't do too much for the first team & he went for the same, but he was older. Both fees were based purely on potential in my humble opinion.

This all goes back to what I said last summer when I made the statement that I thought that we didn't tend to add on an extra bit on the fee based on a players potential. Which is why we sold Philogene & Azaz so cheaply. And I thought we could have got more for both Aaron Ramsey & Archer too.

It would appear that we have sort of fixed that this year, as while Iroegbunam is worth more than £9M, I think Kellymans 'potential' value at £19M is about right...

You’ve got to look at the customer. If Azaz and Philogene were attracting interest from PL clubs the fees would have been higher. No point jackiing up prices to Boro or Hull.

Offline eamonn

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4007 on: June 24, 2024, 03:06:21 PM »
I can't see Philogene staying at Hull this summer, he'll get a good PL club.

Offline Percy McCarthy

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4008 on: June 24, 2024, 03:07:42 PM »
I can't see Philogene staying at Hull this summer, he'll get a good PL club.

The Hull fans went off him a bit towards the end of the season apparently.

Offline Rudy Can't Fail

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4009 on: June 24, 2024, 03:09:49 PM »
I rate Kellyman higher than Chuckwemeka so Chelsea are getting a bargain.

Offline SaddVillan

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4010 on: June 24, 2024, 04:01:21 PM »
Selling Academy players was OK last year when City sold James Trafford to Burnlry for £20m and Cole (Penalty man) Palmer to Chelsea for £45m, but it's not OK this season when Villa and others do the same thing.

The fuckers really don't want anybody else to join the party do they?

Offline go on the dog

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4011 on: June 24, 2024, 04:04:25 PM »
I could see the Fiorentina lad coming straight in to our first team squad.  He's forced his way in to being first choice rightback at a decent Serie A side at 19 years old by the look of things, having played regularly in Serie D the season before.

As promising as Nedeljkovic is, he's been a squad player in a crap league.  I could see him having at least one spell out on loan in the Championship or somewhere before he's considered as an actual realistic option for playing 20+games in our first team.

That sounds about right. If we do sign him, I'd like his nickname to be Richard.

Surely Kayode nickname has to be Wiley

Offline jwarry

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4012 on: June 24, 2024, 04:10:03 PM »
Selling Academy players was OK last year when City sold James Trafford to Burnlry for £20m and Cole (Penalty man) Palmer to Chelsea for £45m, but it's not OK this season when Villa and others do the same thing.

The fuckers really don't want anybody else to join the party do they?

Be really good to know which clubs are complaining

Offline LeeB

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4013 on: June 24, 2024, 04:14:12 PM »
Selling Academy players was OK last year when City sold James Trafford to Burnlry for £20m and Cole (Penalty man) Palmer to Chelsea for £45m, but it's not OK this season when Villa and others do the same thing.

The fuckers really don't want anybody else to join the party do they?

Be really good to know which clubs are complaining

Wulvz no doubt, they share that trait with their cro-magnon cousins down The Hawthorns.

Offline Dogtanian

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4014 on: June 24, 2024, 04:35:10 PM »
These people say we have submitted a 15m EURO bid for Kayode;

https://football-italia.net/kayode-aston-villa-offer-fiorentina/

They value him at 20m EUROs.

Offline Brazilian Villain

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4015 on: June 24, 2024, 04:53:39 PM »
These people say we have submitted a 15m EURO bid for Kayode;

https://football-italia.net/kayode-aston-villa-offer-fiorentina/

They value him at 20m EUROs.

They're just regurgitating the original Alfredo Pedulla article.

Offline Monty

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4016 on: June 24, 2024, 04:54:47 PM »
These people say we have submitted a 15m EURO bid for Kayode;

https://football-italia.net/kayode-aston-villa-offer-fiorentina/

They value him at 20m EUROs.

They're just regurgitating the original Alfredo Pedulla article.

When approached for comment Pedulla just said 'I'm used to it' with a sad smile.

Offline LeonW

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4017 on: June 24, 2024, 05:01:02 PM »
Selling Academy players was OK last year when City sold James Trafford to Burnlry for £20m and Cole (Penalty man) Palmer to Chelsea for £45m, but it's not OK this season when Villa and others do the same thing.

The fuckers really don't want anybody else to join the party do they?

Be really good to know which clubs are complaining

All this means that we’re now a legitimate threat. It’s actually great that we’re getting up people’s noses. At last.

Offline Gareth

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4018 on: June 24, 2024, 05:06:39 PM »
Selling Academy players was OK last year when City sold James Trafford to Burnlry for £20m and Cole (Penalty man) Palmer to Chelsea for £45m, but it's not OK this season when Villa and others do the same thing.

The fuckers really don't want anybody else to join the party do they?

Be really good to know which clubs are complaining
Going to guess a couple of under performing cartel clubs who play in red will be front of the queue

Offline Percy McCarthy

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Re: Summer 2024 Transfer Window - hopes, speculation, rumours etc.
« Reply #4019 on: June 24, 2024, 05:13:56 PM »
Feyenoord centre-half linked. Hanchko or summat like that.

Edit: David Hancko.

I really want us to sign a solid RCB who’s better than Carlos. Gives us the option of Konsa at right-back in big games, which is where Unai likes him.

The marauding bloke from Fiorentina can play in the games when we’re hammering bods 5-0.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2024, 05:17:25 PM by Percy McCarthy »

 


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