MOTD

[Clampy]

I’ve never seen the Godfather. Is that bad?

It’s not bad for you, I’m jealous.

Donnie Brasco is great as well, as are other true story ones - Goodfellas, Casino, Gotti (1996 HBO version - not the Travolta one). Witness to the Mob is underrated IMO. The last two are available on YouTube.

I'd add The Irishman, Carlito's Way and the epic Once Upon a Time in America to the must-see list.

I think Goodfellas is the best of the lot, with GF1 and 2 very close behind.

Listened to a podcast the other day about how the last $700k of Jimmy The Gent Burke’s Lufthansa money was kinda stolen off his daughters and frittered away by current mobsters.

I was recently saddened to see that Ray Liotta had died last year, not very old and i was quite surprised to read that the other cast members including De Niro hadn't really had many dealings with him in the 30 plus years since. I always imagined they'd have been close after pulling off such a modern classic as that together.

I agree on The Irishman also, i did enjoy it but a lot was based on speculation rather than fact.

Dr Niro and Liotta were both in Copland.

[Risso]

Is he still outside IR35? How the chuff does he manage that?

HMRC have felt his collar on it, and it's just awaiting the tribunal. My considered opinion is that he's got absolutely no chance.

[Drummond]

Is he still outside IR35? How the chuff does he manage that?

HMRC have felt his collar on it, and it's just awaiting the tribunal. My considered opinion is that he's got absolutely no chance.

I'm no expert, but I'd wager he'd argue that as he does similar for other broadcasters, such as BT Sport and that he also does other shows and events that he'd argue MOTD is a small part of his overall comtracting.

[eamonn]

I think - inevitably - the way people 'consume' MOTD has changed - as a result of the fact that what we consider 'the media' is entirely different to what it was 20 years ago, let alone 50 or whatever it is since MOTD started.

You can watch pretty much every game live online, without too much hassle, you can see people posting the goals on twitter as they happen, you can see all the highlights from sky straight after the final whistle more or less. MOTD these days seems (for a lot of people) like more of a 'there's nothing else better on' thing rather than a weekly appointment as it was in the past.

I was thinking recently, that "and if you don't know the scores and are waiting for match of the day, walk away now" message that they STILL do on the news on Saturday is probably the most anachronistic thing on television.

Anyway, well done, Gary.

Also, with Peter Withe's Shin you get every Villa goal a whole 5 minutes before we actually score on TV.

Am I right in thinking he works in a Sky live broadcast van or something like that?

Word is he rescued Andy Townsend's Tactics Truck. Every time he puts his foot down on the clutch, it denotes a goal in the Villa game.

[Percy McCarthy]

Someone’s desperate to change the point of debate for some reason.

Would you be able to explain how, as I don't agree, but would be curious to hear you out. I've deleted the bulk of it because I know that winds folks up when we get quote pyramids.

Actually, while I'm not saying that he can't, can I offer the moderatorly advice that he doesn't?

As I don't think it'll lead to an exchange that will make anybody feel better about things.

I agree. He’s not thick.

[Clark W Griswold]

I’ve never seen the Godfather. Is that bad?

It’s not bad for you, I’m jealous.

Donnie Brasco is great as well, as are other true story ones - Goodfellas, Casino, Gotti (1996 HBO version - not the Travolta one). Witness to the Mob is underrated IMO. The last two are available on YouTube.

I'd add The Irishman, Carlito's Way and the epic Once Upon a Time in America to the must-see list.

I think Goodfellas is the best of the lot, with GF1 and 2 very close behind.

Listened to a podcast the other day about how the last $700k of Jimmy The Gent Burke’s Lufthansa money was kinda stolen off his daughters and frittered away by current mobsters.

I was recently saddened to see that Ray Liotta had died last year, not very old and i was quite surprised to read that the other cast members including De Niro hadn't really had many dealings with him in the 30 plus years since. I always imagined they'd have been close after pulling off such a modern classic as that together.

I agree on The Irishman also, i did enjoy it but a lot was based on speculation rather than fact.

Dr Niro and Liotta were both in Copland.

I was scratching my head when i was reading about it trying to remember if they'd been in anything together since. There you go. It came across from De Niro's comments that they hadn't been very close in the years since though.

[Risso]

Is he still outside IR35? How the chuff does he manage that?

HMRC have felt his collar on it, and it's just awaiting the tribunal. My considered opinion is that he's got absolutely no chance.

I'm no expert, but I'd wager he'd argue that as he does similar for other broadcasters, such as BT Sport and that he also does other shows and events that he'd argue MOTD is a small part of his overall comtracting.

That doesn't come into it very much, if at all though. Each contract is judged on its own merits. There are numerous factors that are looked at to judge whether something is employment or not, including:

The length and number of contracts (he's been doing it for 24 years!)
Can he set his own hours (no)
Is there any financial risk in him doing it, ie if he made an error would he have to correct it (no)
Could he send somebody else to do it (presumably no)
Is he supervised or directed (yes)

And so on. I can't think of a single one of the usual tests that are used in IR35 determinations that would point to him not being an employee. After being done for taking part in a Jimmy Carr-type artificial avoidance scheme, the clear signal is that he doesn't think he should pay his fair share of tax. Up there with Margaret Hodge for being a hypocrite, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ads]

Someone’s desperate to change the point of debate for some reason.

Would you be able to explain how, as I don't agree, but would be curious to hear you out. I've deleted the bulk of it because I know that winds folks up when we get quote pyramids.

Actually, while I'm not saying that he can't, can I offer the moderatorly advice that he doesn't?

As I don't think it'll lead to an exchange that will make anybody feel better about things.

Yes, no problem, understood. Wasn't attempting to provoke anything untoward.

[Drummond]

Is he still outside IR35? How the chuff does he manage that?

HMRC have felt his collar on it, and it's just awaiting the tribunal. My considered opinion is that he's got absolutely no chance.

I'm no expert, but I'd wager he'd argue that as he does similar for other broadcasters, such as BT Sport and that he also does other shows and events that he'd argue MOTD is a small part of his overall comtracting.

That doesn't come into it very much, if at all though. Each contract is judged on its own merits. There are numerous factors that are looked at to judge whether something is employment or not, including:

The length and number of contracts (he's been doing it for 24 years!)
Can he set his own hours (no)
Is there any financial risk in him doing it, ie if he made an error would he have to correct it (no)
Could he send somebody else to do it (presumably no)
Is he supervised or directed (yes)

And so on. I can't think of a single one of the usual tests that are used in IR35 determinations that would point to him not being an employee. After being done for taking part in a Jimmy Carr-type artificial avoidance scheme, the clear signal is that he doesn't think he should pay his fair share of tax. Up there with Margaret Hodge for being a hypocrite, as far as I'm concerned.

Ah, I did say I wasn't an expert! :-) Cheers.

[AV82EC]

Is he still outside IR35? How the chuff does he manage that?

HMRC have felt his collar on it, and it's just awaiting the tribunal. My considered opinion is that he's got absolutely no chance.

I'm no expert, but I'd wager he'd argue that as he does similar for other broadcasters, such as BT Sport and that he also does other shows and events that he'd argue MOTD is a small part of his overall comtracting.

That doesn't come into it very much, if at all though. Each contract is judged on its own merits. There are numerous factors that are looked at to judge whether something is employment or not, including:

The length and number of contracts (he's been doing it for 24 years!)
Can he set his own hours (no)
Is there any financial risk in him doing it, ie if he made an error would he have to correct it (no)
Could he send somebody else to do it (presumably no)
Is he supervised or directed (yes)

And so on. I can't think of a single one of the usual tests that are used in IR35 determinations that would point to him not being an employee. After being done for taking part in a Jimmy Carr-type artificial avoidance scheme, the clear signal is that he doesn't think he should pay his fair share of tax. Up there with Margaret Hodge for being a hypocrite, as far as I'm concerned.

As an IR35 person I'd disagree on the substitution point Risso, but I think you're right on all the rest of it. I think he's going to be lucky if he gets away with it.

[paul_e]

Paul, thank you for the considered response. I fundamentally disagree, but this is perhaps the wrong part of the forum to discuss it in the detail it deserves (and we'd probably enjoy!) without sidetracking things too much for everyone else?

Fair, I was going to post something similar on the small boats thread but it got locked as I was typing something up. What I did say on there though is that, in my opinion, how you learn from history isn't to expect things to be repeated in exactly the same way but rather to look for how current problems could develop and to drive public opinion away from the worst of those outcomes. I think that's what Lineker was attempting to do, and I think that's ok, even if it requires some comparisons that people don't like.

[olaftab]

I am an outside IR35 person and it took me a while to convince HMRC  that was the case. All that Risso has said is played out in detail. So I would say Mr Lineker almost about to receive a long service Gold Watch from the BBC is not outside.

[Risso]

As an IR35 person I'd disagree on the substitution point Risso, but I think you're right on all the rest of it. I think he's going to be lucky if he gets away with it.

How so? They do have other people stand in from time to time, eg Mark Chapman, but I'd assume that's arranged by the BBC and not Lineker.

[Chris Smith]

As an IR35 person I'd disagree on the substitution point Risso, but I think you're right on all the rest of it. I think he's going to be lucky if he gets away with it.

How so? They do have other people stand in from time to time, eg Mark Chapman, but I'd assume that's arranged by the BBC and not Lineker.

The same people seem to crop up on the football coverage across all the different channels, BBC, Sky, BT, ITV and Amazon. I suspect they all live in a shared house and if one them is hungover or has managed to pull then they get somebody else to cover their shift.

[AV82EC]

As an IR35 person I'd disagree on the substitution point Risso, but I think you're right on all the rest of it. I think he's going to be lucky if he gets away with it.

How so? They do have other people stand in from time to time, eg Mark Chapman, but I'd assume that's arranged by the BBC and not Lineker.

I suppose my point would be if he offered a substitute (suitably qualified etc etc) to replace if he was unable to perform his contracted stuff then he would probably be meeting the terms of the agreement (from substitution clauses I've seen in my own contracts). If the BBC choose to use one of their own directly employed presenters then that's their decision and nothing to do with Lineker. However, we don't know the details of his contract but HMRC seem like they have a strong case.