VAR

[lovejoy]

I dont think it should be used unless there is a specific need to eg if a goal looks offside then double check. Last night they had no idea about the obstruction when they started checking, that can't be right can it?

For me its driving more inconsistency not less, why werent the West Ham and Cambridge goals disallowed over the weekend as both had infringements?

basically its bollock, use it for clear and obvious errors like offsides and handballs. Perhaps give the managers 2 challenges a game.

[Holte132]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

[Smithy]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

It WAS offside, we know this because the ref gave an indirect free-kick, not a direct one as would be the case with a foul.  The element under discussion with the ref going to the monitor wasn't whether he was in an offside position (or not), which is usually where VAR comes in (because JJ clearly was in an offside position), but whether he interfered with Cavani's ability to challenge for the ball.  That's why he went to the monitor, because that's a matter of opinion, not fact, and hence the ref's call.  It wasn't a "foul" in the sense it would have been given elsewhere on the pitch, but the standards are different here because he started in an offside position so technically ANY interference counts as offside.

I was really angry last night, and I still think they took WAY too long to reach their decision, but I accept it was unfortunately the right one.

My view is that the ref saw the coming together in real-time and thought "no foul, it's just players coming together" - but he did that not realising JJ was offside.  Once he saw JJ was offside on the replay, that coming together becomes an offside offence, even if it doesn't reach the level of a 'foul' anywhere else on the pitch.  You don't have to foul them to be offside, unfortunately.

[chrisw1]

The decision given was essentially offside.  Because he was in an offside position he became active when the players collided and effectively 'interfered with play.'

I think in the final analysis they will say the contact probably wasn't sufficient for a foul, but was sufficient to inerfere with play and he therefore beacame actively offside.  They will say the decision was offside but they went to the ref to check he was happy with the interpretation that he impacted on play.

I'm not defending the decision, I'm fuming about it.  I don't think for one moment it would have been given the other way round, I just think this is how it will be justified and how they will further justify not having to give a pen from every corner when defenders make similar (and significantly worse) blocking actions.   

edit - think me and Smithy were typing at the same time and broadly agree on the interpretation, save for I don't think it should have been given, nor would it the other way around.

[Bobby Boy]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

It WAS offside, we know this because the ref gave an indirect free-kick, not a direct one as would be the case with a foul.  The element under discussion with the ref going to the monitor wasn't whether he was in an offside position (or not), which is usually where VAR comes in (because JJ clearly was in an offside position), but whether he interfered with Cavani's ability to challenge for the ball.  That's why he went to the monitor, because that's a matter of opinion, not fact, and hence the ref's call.  It wasn't a "foul" in the sense it would have been given elsewhere on the pitch, but the standards are different here because he started in an offside position so technically ANY interference counts as offside.

I was really angry last night, and I still think they took WAY too long to reach their decision, but I accept it was unfortunately the right one.

My view is that the ref saw the coming together in real-time and thought "no foul, it's just players coming together" - but he did that not realising JJ was offside.  Once he saw JJ was offside on the replay, that coming together becomes an offside offence, even if it doesn't reach the level of a 'foul' anywhere else on the pitch.  You don't have to foul them to be offside, unfortunately.

If it is that clear a decision why did it take over 3 minutes for the VAR ref to ask Oliver to have a look at it?

[sickbeggar]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

It WAS offside, we know this because the ref gave an indirect free-kick, not a direct one as would be the case with a foul.  The element under discussion with the ref going to the monitor wasn't whether he was in an offside position (or not), which is usually where VAR comes in (because JJ clearly was in an offside position), but whether he interfered with Cavani's ability to challenge for the ball.  That's why he went to the monitor, because that's a matter of opinion, not fact, and hence the ref's call.  It wasn't a "foul" in the sense it would have been given elsewhere on the pitch, but the standards are different here because he started in an offside position so technically ANY interference counts as offside.

I was really angry last night, and I still think they took WAY too long to reach their decision, but I accept it was unfortunately the right one.

My view is that the ref saw the coming together in real-time and thought "no foul, it's just players coming together" - but he did that not realising JJ was offside.  Once he saw JJ was offside on the replay, that coming together becomes an offside offence, even if it doesn't reach the level of a 'foul' anywhere else on the pitch.  You don't have to foul them to be offside, unfortunately.

[/b]

*sigh* but that's not a clear and obvious error. I presume VAR is for stuff a ref should have seen from his position? Not for stuff its takes 6 minutes to look at?

[chrisw1]

Also, am I the only one who saw Lidelof hauling Ollie back when he hit the bar?  He had a big handful of his shirt - how is that not a foul?  Surely it made it harder for Ollie to get his shot off?

[Smithy]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

It WAS offside, we know this because the ref gave an indirect free-kick, not a direct one as would be the case with a foul.  The element under discussion with the ref going to the monitor wasn't whether he was in an offside position (or not), which is usually where VAR comes in (because JJ clearly was in an offside position), but whether he interfered with Cavani's ability to challenge for the ball.  That's why he went to the monitor, because that's a matter of opinion, not fact, and hence the ref's call.  It wasn't a "foul" in the sense it would have been given elsewhere on the pitch, but the standards are different here because he started in an offside position so technically ANY interference counts as offside.

I was really angry last night, and I still think they took WAY too long to reach their decision, but I accept it was unfortunately the right one.

My view is that the ref saw the coming together in real-time and thought "no foul, it's just players coming together" - but he did that not realising JJ was offside.  Once he saw JJ was offside on the replay, that coming together becomes an offside offence, even if it doesn't reach the level of a 'foul' anywhere else on the pitch.  You don't have to foul them to be offside, unfortunately.

If it is that clear a decision why did it take over 3 minutes for the VAR ref to ask Oliver to have a look at it?

I don't agree with how long it took, OBVIOUSLY it was far too long, but I think they looked at the Wakins touch that would have made Ings offside, and Ings' possible handball first because they are matters of FACT. They're binary. VAR can disallow the goal on those decisions without having to get the ref to review a decision at the monitor based on an 'interpretation'.

Imagine a scenario where they got the Ref to look at the screen first for the JJ block, and he says, "Nah, that's ok", and THEN they disallow the goal for an Ings handball?  The place would be absolute bedlam.

They did the reviews in the right order, but took WAY too long on it.

[Hookeysmith]

Also, am I the only one who saw Lidelof hauling Ollie back when he hit the bar?  He had a big handful of his shirt - how is that not a foul?  Surely it made it harder for Ollie to get his shot off?

You know in the scheme of things it just does not matter with them cnuts

[Monty]

Also, am I the only one who saw Lidelof hauling Ollie back when he hit the bar?  He had a big handful of his shirt - how is that not a foul?  Surely it made it harder for Ollie to get his shot off?

And while we're on it, the Konsa thing. Fouls are given on the halfway line for the barest flicker of a hand towards the face, even if by the player in possession of the ball. The foulee always goes down like Ric Flair, but fine, if that's the rule then that's what it is.

Konsa last night actually got bloodied up like, well, like Ric Flair. But penalty? The idea wasn't even laughed off. Even on the Graun MBM they just skated over it with a cursory 'no penalty, but...', and I'm there yelling, HANG ON! If that was fifty yards back it would've been a foul, why as soon as it crosses the magic white line does the burden of proof shoot upwards all of a sudden? A foul somewhere is a foul anywhere, and if in the box then a penalty is awarded. But everyone just seems to accept this. I was baffled.

[Bobby Boy]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

It WAS offside, we know this because the ref gave an indirect free-kick, not a direct one as would be the case with a foul.  The element under discussion with the ref going to the monitor wasn't whether he was in an offside position (or not), which is usually where VAR comes in (because JJ clearly was in an offside position), but whether he interfered with Cavani's ability to challenge for the ball.  That's why he went to the monitor, because that's a matter of opinion, not fact, and hence the ref's call.  It wasn't a "foul" in the sense it would have been given elsewhere on the pitch, but the standards are different here because he started in an offside position so technically ANY interference counts as offside.

I was really angry last night, and I still think they took WAY too long to reach their decision, but I accept it was unfortunately the right one.

My view is that the ref saw the coming together in real-time and thought "no foul, it's just players coming together" - but he did that not realising JJ was offside.  Once he saw JJ was offside on the replay, that coming together becomes an offside offence, even if it doesn't reach the level of a 'foul' anywhere else on the pitch.  You don't have to foul them to be offside, unfortunately.

If it is that clear a decision why did it take over 3 minutes for the VAR ref to ask Oliver to have a look at it?

I don't agree with how long it took, OBVIOUSLY it was far too long, but I think they looked at the Wakins touch that would have made Ings offside, and Ings' possible handball first because they are matters of FACT. They're binary. VAR can disallow the goal on those decisions without having to get the ref to review a decision at the monitor based on an 'interpretation'.

Imagine a scenario where they got the Ref to look at the screen first for the JJ block, and he says, "Nah, that's ok", and THEN they disallow the goal for an Ings handball?  The place would be absolute bedlam.

They did the reviews in the right order, but took WAY too long on it.

My concern is that if you want to you can find an infringement. At every corner. At every free kick. If you want to...

And there's the issue. Some times the refs want to more than others.

[Smithy]

Also, am I the only one who saw Lidelof hauling Ollie back when he hit the bar?  He had a big handful of his shirt - how is that not a foul?  Surely it made it harder for Ollie to get his shot off?

Yup, saw that at the time, and thought it would have maybe been a soft penalty, but he certainly had his shirt as he was leaning back for the shot, and it only missed by a couple of inches, so the shirt pull might have been the difference.

Given how VAR spent nearly 4 minutes on our disallowed goal, I'm disappointed they didn't at least check it.

Just checked it on iPlayer - yep - handful of shirt.

[Chris Smith]

If colliding with a player in an offside position is now given irrespective of whether it is interfering with play then surely sides defending a similar dead ball can engineer the same situation every time.

[Smithy]

I don't think and would never accuse any official - even Moss, Friend and Oliver - of cheating or deliberately favouring "big" teams BUT until PGMOL recognise that there is without doubt an unconscious bias towards Sky 6 clubs it will never improve. 

For me it's the application of VAR that is wrong and that is demonstrated by last night decision. I accept the rule which has been dug out means Ramsey was offside according to the law.  What I don't believe is that VAR would have done more than check the offside/handball if that had been Uniteds goal and the obscure rule would have stayed obscure for a little while longer.

Only the PGMOL can change this and only then if they see the bias and want to change it. 

As an aside I presume this routine was a Nanny MacPhee cunning plan that in the end worked against us.

It wasn't disallowed for offside. Murphy fouled Cavani by standing still and allowing the defender to run into him. Let's see how that works on Saturday if we do the same thing!!

It WAS offside, we know this because the ref gave an indirect free-kick, not a direct one as would be the case with a foul.  The element under discussion with the ref going to the monitor wasn't whether he was in an offside position (or not), which is usually where VAR comes in (because JJ clearly was in an offside position), but whether he interfered with Cavani's ability to challenge for the ball.  That's why he went to the monitor, because that's a matter of opinion, not fact, and hence the ref's call.  It wasn't a "foul" in the sense it would have been given elsewhere on the pitch, but the standards are different here because he started in an offside position so technically ANY interference counts as offside.

I was really angry last night, and I still think they took WAY too long to reach their decision, but I accept it was unfortunately the right one.

My view is that the ref saw the coming together in real-time and thought "no foul, it's just players coming together" - but he did that not realising JJ was offside.  Once he saw JJ was offside on the replay, that coming together becomes an offside offence, even if it doesn't reach the level of a 'foul' anywhere else on the pitch.  You don't have to foul them to be offside, unfortunately.

If it is that clear a decision why did it take over 3 minutes for the VAR ref to ask Oliver to have a look at it?

I don't agree with how long it took, OBVIOUSLY it was far too long, but I think they looked at the Wakins touch that would have made Ings offside, and Ings' possible handball first because they are matters of FACT. They're binary. VAR can disallow the goal on those decisions without having to get the ref to review a decision at the monitor based on an 'interpretation'.

Imagine a scenario where they got the Ref to look at the screen first for the JJ block, and he says, "Nah, that's ok", and THEN they disallow the goal for an Ings handball?  The place would be absolute bedlam.

They did the reviews in the right order, but took WAY too long on it.

My concern is that if you want to you can find an infringement. At every corner. At every free kick. If you want to...

And there's the issue. Some times the refs want to more than others.

I agree, but we have to stop thinking of the goal as being disallowed for a 'foul'. It wasn't.  It wasn't the severity of the contact, it was JJ's starting position, which meant ANY interference constitutes offside.  As we've already seen with VAR to our detriment, just being in someone's eyeline is enough interference for it to be offside, so blocking a run is always going to count.

Anywhere else on the pitch, that incident doesn't get given as a foul, and rightly so - and WASN'T foul here, either.

[Smithy]

If colliding with a player in an offside position is now given irrespective of whether it is interfering with play then surely sides defending a similar dead ball can engineer the same situation every time.

Indeed, and I expect it will stop a lot of teams having a player in an offside position anywhere close to where the ball is being aimed. Many will still start in an offside position, as it's a good way to avoid touch-tight marking, but I can't see anyone trying to do what we did again.


EDIT: Actually the 'interfering' threshold still stands, because the ref felt JJ's block preventing him from challenging for the header across goal.  So his offside position DID interfere.