collapse collapse

Please donate to help towards the costs of keeping this site going. Thank You.

Follow us on...

Author Topic: VAR  (Read 343429 times)

Offline Hookeysmith

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11799
  • Age: 60
  • Location: One hand on the handle of the mad / sane door
  • GM : 06.02.2025
Re: VAR
« Reply #300 on: August 27, 2019, 12:45:01 PM »
I don't. I want to see cheats like Bamford punished, and I want to make it more difficult for referees to give ludicrous penalties to the home side at Old Trafford. VAR should help. It needs to improve, but judging by how it is working now compared to just a few months ago at the Women's World Cup, it already is improving rapidly.

agreed

Offline AllanW

  • Member
  • Posts: 208
Re: VAR
« Reply #301 on: August 27, 2019, 01:33:16 PM »
I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because if the "teething problems" are penalties not given when they should be, goals not given when they could be and referees getting just as many things wrong as before then it doesn't look like it's improving the fairness.

I don't understand why people who want to improve the fairness of the game aren't prepared to work through the teething problems in workgroups between the referees and the authorities until they have a system which delivers fairness compared to now and THEN bring it into the game, not before. The PL is too important to be a test-site; prove it works through rigorous testing and we'll back it.

This isn't how important things like airplane wings are tested so why do it to football?

Online Nev

  • Member
  • Posts: 14329
  • Location: Vibrania
  • GM : 03.02.2022
Re: VAR
« Reply #302 on: August 27, 2019, 01:36:57 PM »
The myth that using VAR will get decisions correct till exists. Fouls are always going to be subjective, all VAR does is ask for a second opinion.

For years people cited Tennis, Rugby and Cricket as examples but in almost all cases in those sports it's a decision based on fact, not opinion. The handball/offside VAR decisions may be factual but they have not made the rules clear enough for the video ref to come to a definitive decision so we have a shitty mess full of conjecture and argument. If people are hell bent on demanding the correct outcome every time just feed the data of each team into a computer and see what the result is, all human error, player or official is removed.

If you look at the cricket, much has been made of Joel Wilson's error in not calling the LBW yesterday, but Nathan Lyon made an equally crucial mistake. Why does a player get a pass but the umpire doesn't? Those errors just added to the drama. As did Paine's decision to refer just a few moments earlier.

I still see a second yellow card as a potential game changing decision yet there is no referral so what's the fuckin point.? Give it back to the ref and let's get on with it for fucks sake.
Or just let it bed in and get it right.

As for rugby, a lot of the decisions are far from factual - it deals with foul play anywhere on the field and any potential offences leading up to a try.

We've been moaning for years about duff decisions, diving, off side goals, people not being sent off in cup finals, Patrick Bamford being a c*** etc etc.  I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because the sense of injustice fuels our support, being on the right end of an incorrect decision makes us feel like naughty school kids as we giggle at our opponents, the unpredictability appals us and thrills us in equal measure, we build certain officials into bogeymen and villains, we love the drama, we love the arguments and conjecture, what might have been, what should've been and those garrulous tales of huge decisions that denied our team the world dominance they so richly deserved if it wasn't for a fat bloke from Staffordshire or a school master from Harrow.

Sport is a glorious thing, Sunday afternoon was a perfect example, yes technology was used but it was human bravery and skill, fallibility and misjudgement that gave it the drama.

I have enjoyed football for almost 50 years and the addition of VAR has not enhanced that at all. I want justice and order in life, I want chaos and disorder in Sport, it's what makes it for me.

Offline Chinchilla Bathhouse

  • Member
  • Posts: 2291
  • GM : 25.01.2020
Re: VAR
« Reply #303 on: August 27, 2019, 01:40:00 PM »
Couldn't agree more Nev. My feelings exactly.

Offline Edvard Remberg

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7688
  • Location: Tórshavn, Faroe Islands
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/69507054@N00/
  • GM : 17.10.2024
Re: VAR
« Reply #304 on: August 27, 2019, 01:40:25 PM »
I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because if the "teething problems" are penalties not given when they should be, goals not given when they could be and referees getting just as many things wrong as before then it doesn't look like it's improving the fairness.

I don't understand why people who want to improve the fairness of the game aren't prepared to work through the teething problems in workgroups between the referees and the authorities until they have a system which delivers fairness compared to now and THEN bring it into the game, not before. The PL is too important to be a test-site; prove it works through rigorous testing and we'll back it.

This isn't how important things like airplane wings are tested so why do it to football?
Really? The thing is that VAR hasn't been used because a clear and obvious error - which means that it has solely been the referee's decision at that moment - now guess what, that is just like before without VAR.

Offline chrisw1

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9147
  • GM : 20.08.2024
Re: VAR
« Reply #305 on: August 27, 2019, 02:13:27 PM »
I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because if the "teething problems" are penalties not given when they should be, goals not given when they could be and referees getting just as many things wrong as before then it doesn't look like it's improving the fairness.

I don't understand why people who want to improve the fairness of the game aren't prepared to work through the teething problems in workgroups between the referees and the authorities until they have a system which delivers fairness compared to now and THEN bring it into the game, not before. The PL is too important to be a test-site; prove it works through rigorous testing and we'll back it.

This isn't how important things like airplane wings are tested so why do it to football?
It was always going to take time to settle down.  It will and when it does it will improve the game. 

Offline Chinchilla Bathhouse

  • Member
  • Posts: 2291
  • GM : 25.01.2020
Re: VAR
« Reply #306 on: August 27, 2019, 02:22:48 PM »
I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because if the "teething problems" are penalties not given when they should be, goals not given when they could be and referees getting just as many things wrong as before then it doesn't look like it's improving the fairness.

I don't understand why people who want to improve the fairness of the game aren't prepared to work through the teething problems in workgroups between the referees and the authorities until they have a system which delivers fairness compared to now and THEN bring it into the game, not before. The PL is too important to be a test-site; prove it works through rigorous testing and we'll back it.

This isn't how important things like airplane wings are tested so why do it to football?
It was always going to take time to settle down.  It will and when it does it will improve the game.

Everyone just accepting that humans make mistakes and life ain't always fair would improve it more.

Offline chrisw1

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9147
  • GM : 20.08.2024
Re: VAR
« Reply #307 on: August 27, 2019, 02:28:50 PM »
The myth that using VAR will get decisions correct till exists. Fouls are always going to be subjective, all VAR does is ask for a second opinion.

For years people cited Tennis, Rugby and Cricket as examples but in almost all cases in those sports it's a decision based on fact, not opinion. The handball/offside VAR decisions may be factual but they have not made the rules clear enough for the video ref to come to a definitive decision so we have a shitty mess full of conjecture and argument. If people are hell bent on demanding the correct outcome every time just feed the data of each team into a computer and see what the result is, all human error, player or official is removed.

If you look at the cricket, much has been made of Joel Wilson's error in not calling the LBW yesterday, but Nathan Lyon made an equally crucial mistake. Why does a player get a pass but the umpire doesn't? Those errors just added to the drama. As did Paine's decision to refer just a few moments earlier.

I still see a second yellow card as a potential game changing decision yet there is no referral so what's the fuckin point.? Give it back to the ref and let's get on with it for fucks sake.
Or just let it bed in and get it right.

As for rugby, a lot of the decisions are far from factual - it deals with foul play anywhere on the field and any potential offences leading up to a try.

We've been moaning for years about duff decisions, diving, off side goals, people not being sent off in cup finals, Patrick Bamford being a c*** etc etc.  I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because the sense of injustice fuels our support, being on the right end of an incorrect decision makes us feel like naughty school kids as we giggle at our opponents, the unpredictability appals us and thrills us in equal measure, we build certain officials into bogeymen and villains, we love the drama, we love the arguments and conjecture, what might have been, what should've been and those garrulous tales of huge decisions that denied our team the world dominance they so richly deserved if it wasn't for a fat bloke from Staffordshire or a school master from Harrow.

Sport is a glorious thing, Sunday afternoon was a perfect example, yes technology was used but it was human bravery and skill, fallibility and misjudgement that gave it the drama.

I have enjoyed football for almost 50 years and the addition of VAR has not enhanced that at all. I want justice and order in life, I want chaos and disorder in Sport, it's what makes it for me.
Fair enough.  Personally I'd have preferred Maradonna's goal to have been disallowed, Vidic to have been sent off for his assault at Wembley, Rodriguez handball goal to be disallowed and El Ghazi not sent off for the ghost punch on Bamford.  The romance of human fallibility and misjudgement does nothing for me when it results in travesties like those.

Online Dogtanian

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3630
  • Location: The Streets of Rage ( Tamworth )
  • GM : 06.06.2024
Re: VAR
« Reply #308 on: August 27, 2019, 02:34:29 PM »
Personally, although I do get enraged by poor refereeing, I do accept there is a difference between a genuine mistake and a terrible match official.

For me, the referee's job is not to make a game of football completely fair, because he never can.  The key role of a referee for me is to make the decision when one needs to be made in order to enable the game to continue.  Else we end up as we were as kids with arguments raging and fights breaking out every two minutes about every little thing.

Offline Villa75

  • Member
  • Posts: 1033
Re: VAR
« Reply #309 on: August 27, 2019, 02:40:29 PM »
We're all willing to accept "human mistakes" when they are going for us though.

As England cricket fans, after the World Cup 'win' and the latest Ashes 'win', we have absolutely no right to ever moan about a decision against us ever again. We will though.

VAR is here to stay, along with goal line technology, thank god. If they chalk out every offside goal and allows every correct goal (even by millimetres), and stops every goal assisted by a handball, then I will be happy.

There will still be plenty for people to moan and argue about, for those that like that side of the game, like the Kane 'penalty' at the weekend. Which, by the way, many ex-players have disagreed on the validity of.

Why people would want to risk going back to blatant injustices, for the 'fun of it' or because it's 'not 100% right' (according to them), is beyond me.

Online Nev

  • Member
  • Posts: 14329
  • Location: Vibrania
  • GM : 03.02.2022
Re: VAR
« Reply #310 on: August 27, 2019, 03:10:07 PM »
The myth that using VAR will get decisions correct till exists. Fouls are always going to be subjective, all VAR does is ask for a second opinion.

For years people cited Tennis, Rugby and Cricket as examples but in almost all cases in those sports it's a decision based on fact, not opinion. The handball/offside VAR decisions may be factual but they have not made the rules clear enough for the video ref to come to a definitive decision so we have a shitty mess full of conjecture and argument. If people are hell bent on demanding the correct outcome every time just feed the data of each team into a computer and see what the result is, all human error, player or official is removed.

If you look at the cricket, much has been made of Joel Wilson's error in not calling the LBW yesterday, but Nathan Lyon made an equally crucial mistake. Why does a player get a pass but the umpire doesn't? Those errors just added to the drama. As did Paine's decision to refer just a few moments earlier.

I still see a second yellow card as a potential game changing decision yet there is no referral so what's the fuckin point.? Give it back to the ref and let's get on with it for fucks sake.
Or just let it bed in and get it right.

As for rugby, a lot of the decisions are far from factual - it deals with foul play anywhere on the field and any potential offences leading up to a try.

We've been moaning for years about duff decisions, diving, off side goals, people not being sent off in cup finals, Patrick Bamford being a c*** etc etc.  I just don't get why people aren't prepared to work through the various teething problems to get a system that works and hopefuly improves the fairness of the game in the long run.

Because the sense of injustice fuels our support, being on the right end of an incorrect decision makes us feel like naughty school kids as we giggle at our opponents, the unpredictability appals us and thrills us in equal measure, we build certain officials into bogeymen and villains, we love the drama, we love the arguments and conjecture, what might have been, what should've been and those garrulous tales of huge decisions that denied our team the world dominance they so richly deserved if it wasn't for a fat bloke from Staffordshire or a school master from Harrow.

Sport is a glorious thing, Sunday afternoon was a perfect example, yes technology was used but it was human bravery and skill, fallibility and misjudgement that gave it the drama.

I have enjoyed football for almost 50 years and the addition of VAR has not enhanced that at all. I want justice and order in life, I want chaos and disorder in Sport, it's what makes it for me.
Fair enough.  Personally I'd have preferred Maradonna's goal to have been disallowed, Vidic to have been sent off for his assault at Wembley, Rodriguez handball goal to be disallowed and El Ghazi not sent off for the ghost punch on Bamford.  The romance of human fallibility and misjudgement does nothing for me when it results in travesties like those.

Then you would be happy with the result of the 1966 WCF to be different? And as for the last two, overcoming Sandwell in the paly offs made it all the sweeter as did Leeds getting gubbed by Derby. I can see we're not going to agree and everyone has a different opinion but the more emotional sport is, the more I enjoy it.

Offline Villa75

  • Member
  • Posts: 1033
Re: VAR
« Reply #311 on: August 27, 2019, 03:17:26 PM »
You're the first sports fan I've encountered that would enjoy being cheated out of a win.

Personally, our '66 WC win and the latest cricket WC win will always be tainted somewhat (as well as Sunday's Ashes win). I don't enjoy losing unfairly, and I'm honest enough to admit I don't get the full satisfaction from winning unfairly.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 03:22:14 PM by Villa75 »

Online Nev

  • Member
  • Posts: 14329
  • Location: Vibrania
  • GM : 03.02.2022
Re: VAR
« Reply #312 on: August 28, 2019, 07:37:51 AM »
You're the first sports fan I've encountered that would enjoy being cheated out of a win.

Personally, our '66 WC win and the latest cricket WC win will always be tainted somewhat (as well as Sunday's Ashes win). I don't enjoy losing unfairly, and I'm honest enough to admit I don't get the full satisfaction from winning unfairly.

You're reverting to hyperbole now.

There is no evidence that in any of the games you mentioned that there was any impropriety whatsoever, there was however, human error from the officials, something that is accepted of players but not the officials even though both are human. To infer that there is widespread "cheating" from officials is laughable, particularly when all the evidence points to the ref being the only person taking to the field without the express intention of gaining an unfair advantage.

If I considered there to be widespread corruption I wouldn't watch or pay to attend. My view isn't based on the long term prospects of Aston Villa but the long term prospects of the game without which there will be no Villa and I see much bigger problems for it than the competence of our officials. In a week where we see two proud old clubs go to the wall, many others teetering on the brink, where the gap between the haves and have-nots grows ever bigger where obvious cheating by players goes unpunished and the amount of cash and support afforded to grass roots shrinks by the year I believe there are bigger threats to Football as we know it.

I can see that we have our own opinions and are not going to agree on this matter, perhaps we should bring in a neutral observer to oversee our argument and make a rational decision? We must first agree on this though before we go any further and accept the decision as final......

Offline Villa75

  • Member
  • Posts: 1033
Re: VAR
« Reply #313 on: August 28, 2019, 02:22:36 PM »
No thanks.

I'd rather technology gave us an important win than a 'well-meaning', but error-ridden, official take it from us.

And it it falls the other way, then so be it. I can handle fairness, even if it goes against me.

As I said earlier, despite technology correcting errors on offsides/onsides, goals/no goals, Henry/Maradona handballs, etc., there will still be plenty left for people to moan about/claim injustice on. "Was that really their free-kick /throw in 5 minutes before we scored that own goal!?" and the like.

To want to get rid of technology just because some people can't agree on a foul is ludicrous. Linking the argument to clubs going out of business even more so.

Online Nev

  • Member
  • Posts: 14329
  • Location: Vibrania
  • GM : 03.02.2022
Re: VAR
« Reply #314 on: August 28, 2019, 02:51:53 PM »
No thanks.

I'd rather technology gave us an important win than a 'well-meaning', but error-ridden, official take it from us.

And it it falls the other way, then so be it. I can handle fairness, even if it goes against me.

As I said earlier, despite technology correcting errors on offsides/onsides, goals/no goals, Henry/Maradona handballs, etc., there will still be plenty left for people to moan about/claim injustice on. "Was that really their free-kick /throw in 5 minutes before we scored that own goal!?" and the like.

To want to get rid of technology just because some people can't agree on a foul is ludicrous. Linking the argument to clubs going out of business even more so.

I don't want to get rid of technology, the goaline technology is brilliant, dealing with matter of fact. I don't like VAR because it doesn't add anything to the game in my opinion. Spurs were happy at Man City, not so much so last week and that is likely to happen with an on field ref so what have we gained?

VAR has nothing to do with clubs going out of business, I never inferred that, my point was that football has more serious problems but chooses to ignore them.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal