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Author Topic: VAR  (Read 222279 times)

Offline Risso

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2445 on: March 01, 2022, 01:19:22 PM »

Not one PL ref was at the last World Cup & when they have been there they've fucked up. The PL brings in the best players from around the world, why don't they employ the best refs from around the world?

Because there's no commercial reason for doing so. Does the average plastic Man City fan in Hong Kong or wherever care that it was a handball? No. Does the corruption preserve the status quo which rakes in billions? Yes.

Offline LeonW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2446 on: March 01, 2022, 01:33:17 PM »

Not one PL ref was at the last World Cup & when they have been there they've fucked up. The PL brings in the best players from around the world, why don't they employ the best refs from around the world?

Because there's no commercial reason for doing so. Does the average plastic Man City fan in Hong Kong or wherever care that it was a handball? No. Does the corruption preserve the status quo which rakes in billions? Yes.

That, and the potential fear of a more successful attempt at a Super League which was put on hold last year.

Offline Smithy

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2447 on: March 01, 2022, 01:54:30 PM »
This whole situation around this incident is bad enough already, but if City win the league by one or two points, or if Everton get relegated by a point, I don't know how they continue with VAR 'as is'.

The argument of course would be "well, without VAR there wouldn't have been a penalty anyway", but if it's not going to pick up errors THAT obvious, who cares if someone is a toenail offside?


Offline LeonW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2448 on: March 01, 2022, 02:10:25 PM »
This whole situation around this incident is bad enough already, but if City win the league by one or two points, or if Everton get relegated by a point, I don't know how they continue with VAR 'as is'.

The argument of course would be "well, without VAR there wouldn't have been a penalty anyway", but if it's not going to pick up errors THAT obvious, who cares if someone is a toenail offside?

This is where the big difference is. In the past, an official or linesman would make a mistake (or worse). But with VAR, there is the chance to pick up things that the ref and linespeople don't see. That has opened up an entirely new field for decision making. People can say that officials have always given more favourable decisions to bigger clubs. But now with VAR, they've got even more opportunity to do that, by awarding things that the on field officials haven't seen or given. Not only that, but change decisions that have been given and not get involved when it's clear and obvious that they should.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 02:14:13 PM by LeonW »

Offline lovejoy

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2449 on: March 01, 2022, 02:17:33 PM »
The offside point is a good one, if the VAR ref can't see the blindingly obvious handball how can he be so sure over the marginal offsides like Watkins?

I'm not sure I go with the conspiracy though as there is more money to be had with Liverpool winning the league so a penalty would have helped that.

Offline The Edge

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2450 on: March 01, 2022, 03:37:06 PM »
Yes Dave, I don't think anybody was blaming the match ref for missing it in the first instance. Things happen in a split second in real time, and he may not have seen it clearly in which case he can't give it. That's the entire point of VAR though isn't it? It was the most obvious handball I've seen all season, short of somebody doing a Harlem Globetrotters impression and bouncing it up the pitch. VAR should have told the ref it was a handball, or at least told him to go and have another look at the monitor.
I've only seen it once and I thought they did send the referee to the monitor? If not then why not? That's ridiculous. As for not blaming the match officials I think this opens up another can of worms. That handball was so blatant the whole ground was in uproar including the Everton players. Let's wind the clock back to pre-var times. If that was missed by the officials their would have been uproar and the officials would have been roundly condemned for such a massive blunder. Are we now saying that because var is here the match officials get a free pass?

Offline Smithy

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2451 on: March 01, 2022, 03:40:16 PM »
I do think that much of the problem has come from the fact that VAR can't overrule a referee, but can send him to a monitor to look at an incident.  Yet I can't think of a SINGLE incident where a ref has gone to the monitor and thought "no, I got that one right". 

This means sending a ref to a monitor has become "the ref is definitely going to change his mind here", so referring a ref to a monitor is basically the same as overruling them. And because it's basically overruling them, VAR won't refer a ref to a monitor unless they are absolutely 100% confident a mistake has been made, when really it SHOULD be only 80-90% confident a mistake has been made.

The monitor shouldn't be used that way.  It should be a case of VAR telling the ref "I THINK you MIGHT have made a mistake, on an important call, and I'd like you to take another look so you're comfortable with your decision."

It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion when they head to the pitch-side.  Because if it is, then VAR won't refer anything with even a tiny bit of doubt.  The handball should have been referred, obviously, but the fact there was a tiny tiny element of doubt in VAR's mind (wrongly), it didn't get referred.

Ironically, I think it would be good for VAR to be 'wrong' a few more times by referring a few decisions that aren't foregone, and which would see the ref stick to their original decision.  It would also put an end to the crown cheering whenever a ref goes to the pitchside, which I fucking loathe.

If the VAR felt the ref might stick to his original decision, I think they'd be more willing to refer incidents like the Man City handball.

But then we might have the ref visiting the pitchside even more often, which is shit in itself.  I guess I've no idea what the answer is...

Online paul_e

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2452 on: March 01, 2022, 03:45:45 PM »
I do think that much of the problem has come from the fact that VAR can't overrule a referee, but can send him to a monitor to look at an incident.  Yet I can't think of a SINGLE incident where a ref has gone to the monitor and thought "no, I got that one right". 

This means sending a ref to a monitor has become "the ref is definitely going to change his mind here", so referring a ref to a monitor is basically the same as overruling them. And because it's basically overruling them, VAR won't refer a ref to a monitor unless they are absolutely 100% confident a mistake has been made, when really it SHOULD be only 80-90% confident a mistake has been made.

The monitor shouldn't be used that way.  It should be a case of VAR telling the ref "I THINK you MIGHT have made a mistake, on an important call, and I'd like you to take another look so you're comfortable with your decision."

It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion when they head to the pitch-side.  Because if it is, then VAR won't refer anything with even a tiny bit of doubt.  The handball should have been referred, obviously, but the fact there was a tiny tiny element of doubt in VAR's mind (wrongly), it didn't get referred.

Ironically, I think it would be good for VAR to be 'wrong' a few more times by referring a few decisions that aren't foregone, and which would see the ref stick to their original decision.  It would also put an end to the crown cheering whenever a ref goes to the pitchside, which I fucking loathe.

If the VAR felt the ref might stick to his original decision, I think they'd be more willing to refer incidents like the Man City handball.

But then we might have the ref visiting the pitchside even more often, which is shit in itself.  I guess I've no idea what the answer is...

The bold bit is key for me. I drone on about how they do it in rugby but that's one of the things that just works.
Video ref spots something and wants to check it.
Alerts ref and says he's checking and to pause the game at the next opportunity.
Watches a couple of angles in the meantime and either dismisses it or asks the ref to take a look.
Ref watches and chats to all of the officials and once they are all on the same page he tells the players the decision.

All done on a mic so you can hear on TV or by using a mini radio thing in the ground and then the decision is confirme on the big screens.

I don't get how you can live in a country that has got video referals so right in another sport and fuck it up to the degree tat PGMOL have, it can only be down to arrogance in my opinion.

Offline The Edge

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2453 on: March 01, 2022, 03:52:58 PM »
I do think that much of the problem has come from the fact that VAR can't overrule a referee, but can send him to a monitor to look at an incident.  Yet I can't think of a SINGLE incident where a ref has gone to the monitor and thought "no, I got that one right". 

This means sending a ref to a monitor has become "the ref is definitely going to change his mind here", so referring a ref to a monitor is basically the same as overruling them. And because it's basically overruling them, VAR won't refer a ref to a monitor unless they are absolutely 100% confident a mistake has been made, when really it SHOULD be only 80-90% confident a mistake has been made.

The monitor shouldn't be used that way.  It should be a case of VAR telling the ref "I THINK you MIGHT have made a mistake, on an important call, and I'd like you to take another look so you're comfortable with your decision."

It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion when they head to the pitch-side.  Because if it is, then VAR won't refer anything with even a tiny bit of doubt.  The handball should have been referred, obviously, but the fact there was a tiny tiny element of doubt in VAR's mind (wrongly), it didn't get referred.

Ironically, I think it would be good for VAR to be 'wrong' a few more times by referring a few decisions that aren't foregone, and which would see the ref stick to their original decision.  It would also put an end to the crown cheering whenever a ref goes to the pitchside, which I fucking loathe.

If the VAR felt the ref might stick to his original decision, I think they'd be more willing to refer incidents like the Man City handball.

But then we might have the ref visiting the pitchside even more often, which is shit in itself.  I guess I've no idea what the answer is...
If they had implemented it the way they were meant to from day one we would not be in this situation. It was meant to stop "clear and obvious errors" by the match officials. It's never ever been used how it was intended instead they chose to get involved in minutiae. They give fractional offsides which are patently flawed as the tech being used simply isn't capable and they ignore clear and obvious errors like that hand ball. It's that simple for me. They looked at it and decided to dive headfirst down a rabbit hole instead.

Offline LeonW

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2454 on: March 01, 2022, 04:14:27 PM »
I do think that much of the problem has come from the fact that VAR can't overrule a referee, but can send him to a monitor to look at an incident.  Yet I can't think of a SINGLE incident where a ref has gone to the monitor and thought "no, I got that one right". 

This means sending a ref to a monitor has become "the ref is definitely going to change his mind here", so referring a ref to a monitor is basically the same as overruling them. And because it's basically overruling them, VAR won't refer a ref to a monitor unless they are absolutely 100% confident a mistake has been made, when really it SHOULD be only 80-90% confident a mistake has been made.

The monitor shouldn't be used that way.  It should be a case of VAR telling the ref "I THINK you MIGHT have made a mistake, on an important call, and I'd like you to take another look so you're comfortable with your decision."

It shouldn't be a foregone conclusion when they head to the pitch-side.  Because if it is, then VAR won't refer anything with even a tiny bit of doubt.  The handball should have been referred, obviously, but the fact there was a tiny tiny element of doubt in VAR's mind (wrongly), it didn't get referred.

Ironically, I think it would be good for VAR to be 'wrong' a few more times by referring a few decisions that aren't foregone, and which would see the ref stick to their original decision.  It would also put an end to the crown cheering whenever a ref goes to the pitchside, which I fucking loathe.

If the VAR felt the ref might stick to his original decision, I think they'd be more willing to refer incidents like the Man City handball.

But then we might have the ref visiting the pitchside even more often, which is shit in itself.  I guess I've no idea what the answer is...

More than inconsistently being applied, the key bit here is that sometimes VAR asks the on field ref to review a decision he hasn't made and sometimes it says it can't get involved because the on field ref didn't make a decision (i.e. hides behind the 'clear and obvious' nonsense). Look at our disallowed goal against the Manc reds in the cup. VAR initially reviewed it for handball, but the ref hadn't whistled for handball and had initially allowed the goal. That was the first thing that was checked. Had Ings clearly and obviously handled the ball? No chance whatsoever, yet VAR got involved. Then because it was involved, other elements started to be reviewed. But the key thing is that VAR checked for handball first. Konsa gets bundled over by Ake in the home game against the Manc Blues and yet VAR isn't involved because the ref didn't make a decision that required review i.e. not 'clear and obvious' enough to get involved. This is season 3 of VAR not working, not season 1. The inconsistencies stink and always seem to favour the same teams.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 04:16:18 PM by LeonW »

Offline Clampy

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2455 on: March 01, 2022, 04:51:38 PM »
The apology for Everton is of no use whatsoever. It's possibly denied Everton a much needed point and it won't change a thing. Like someone else said, three season's in and we're still talking about it.

Offline London Villan

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2456 on: March 01, 2022, 04:58:10 PM »
The rodrigo hand-ball is exactly what it should be used for. Ref didn't get a clear view, so he needs to check.

Online Gareth

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2457 on: March 01, 2022, 05:39:14 PM »
PGMOL or whoever they are should come out and have to explain all VAR decisions after the weekend. I can forgive a ref not seeing something first time, but not the blokes sat reviewing things. If you're going to ruin our game at least have the courage of your convictions to back up your decisions.

Absolutely. However, they will just use the tried and tested non answer and nobody can hold them to account.

I still maintain there should be an independent panel instead of bloody referees.

100% this, from day one Iíve always said the VAR official should not just be another referee having a day off running!  It is a full time role being a VAR official and they should train as such so they can work the technology / manage the communications etc.  independent would be great although I do see it as a role some ex refs could fill also.

Offline trinityoap

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2458 on: March 01, 2022, 06:47:24 PM »
I'm in the "rugby camp" on VAR. Either ref asks them to check it or they invite him to have a look ,but in each case the crowd are informed of the reason and the discussion is broadcast ,and everything is shown on screen. At least all premier league grounds have big screens don't they? Oh,just a minute........

Offline The Edge

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Re: VAR
« Reply #2459 on: March 01, 2022, 06:55:18 PM »
I'm in the "rugby camp" on VAR. Either ref asks them to check it or they invite him to have a look ,but in each case the crowd are informed of the reason and the discussion is broadcast ,and everything is shown on screen. At least all premier league grounds have big screens don't they? Oh,just a minute........
Liverpool & Man you are the only two that don't I think. Seems strange.

 


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