Dean Smith - Confirmed

[Drummond]

Lower midtable, I'd argue. Only just beating 40 points. Not arguing that we've considerably improved this season overall, but this calendar year has been clearly inadequate.

Normally it'd be lower midtable but this season on all results since Christmas we're 11th so it's genuinely midtable form in context of the league. There is an anomaly that we've played more games than most in that period but given our own 2 week break and the clustering of games that created at times I think it's still pretty fair, especially given our 24 includes playing the top 2 home and away.

Nope, 13th actually.

Not sure where you're looking to get that but I gave very specific criteria of all games since Christmas and that gives you this:

https://www.statbunker.com/competitions/LeagueTable?comp_id=667&start_date=25-12-2020&end_date=01-06-2021&start_time=0&end_time=90

I even said that there's a discrepancy in how many games we'd played compared to others so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.

Last 6 mathes - 18th
Last 10 matches - 18th
Last 12 matches - 18th
Last 15 matches - 17th
Last 20 matches - 14th
Last 23 matches - 15th

Whichever way you want to portray this its bloody dismal.

https://www.twtd.co.uk/league-tables/competition:premier-league/form/matches:20/type:home-and-away/

https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england

Just as well the season is played over 38 then I guess.

On that basis we're likely to be 11th.

[Clampy]

Staying in the division was the most important thing last season. I wouldn't exactly call it an achivement. It was just what we needed to do and we did it.

I also don't see many people suggesting what we can do and can't do. I do see people saying things don't happen overnight. That's the difference.

[Steve67]

It looks like some are disappointed that Dean hasn't overperformed. We're all impatient for success, but sometimes that in itself leads to mistakes.
I'm disappointed we haven't won much since Christmas, but we are absolutely going in the right direction. When we're not, then it's time to act.

Nice summary Lee. 

I think we had to spend money just to exist in this league, to survive,  I think it's what comes next is the biggest factor of Dean's reign.  He has done as well as he has been expected to, spent money, been supported = he has got us to where we probably should be.  Not under-performed, or over-performed but got us to a comfortable position.  I guess the 'how we got there' started well but turned a little sour during the second half of the season. What comes next, defines Dean as Aston Villa Manager and I think he deserves that crack.  I haven't enjoyed the second half of the season for large parts but I think that Dean deserves the respect and opportunity to continue until we stand still. At that point, we have to look at a more experienced, dare I say, better Manager than Dean who can take us on to the next step.  All of that said, if Villa parted company with Dean, I would not be in the slightest bit surprised.

[dave.woodhall]

But the new narrative now is ‘well we’ve improved this season, what did you expect‘
Well I expected more last season for a start
Where we are now is where we should’ve been last year
I’ve heard all the excuses of why we aren’t and I’m not bothered it’s not a race to the bottom

I won't quote everything but this bit, for me, shows a lack of understanding of what happens to play off winners. Since the formation of the premier league well over half of teams promoted from the play offs have been relegated the next season. A team that finishes 3-6 in the championship is out of its depth in the premier league and the only way around that is to spend big on improving the squad but that comes with it's own dangers of "doing a Fulham" because you're going into a very competitive league with a squad that are still getting to know each other.

a play off team not going back down is always an achievement, history shows that clearly.

Like I’ve said before let’s start comparing ourselves with those who have and those who have attained better than the average rather than the race to the bottom which so many including yourself are so keen on

Yes, let's ignore everything that doesn't fit in with your narrative.

It is my narrative I hold my hands up
For years you me and others complained about Doig running Villa like the Cornershop never realising the potential never realising what could be achieved

Well it’s the same on here with a lot of people everyone telling us what we can’t do And why we can’t do it
making excuses of why we haven’t
And then trying to pretend that’s scraping out of relegation by a single point not even winning our last game but relying on others to bail us out was in fact some great season

It wasn’t it was Cornershop mentality

Nobody was saying that at all so don't try putting words into anyone's mouth, least of all mine. Last season was not "cornershop mentality" (whatever that might mean) and neither was it a great season. We achieved the primary aim of staying up. This season has been better, and again we achieved what was realistically the aim of mid-table. Next season the aim will be higher. Nobody is saying any different, nobody is making excuses. 

[chrisw1]

A lot of the discussions have been about our form over a sustained period of time Drummond, with some saying relegation form and others challenging it.

Those are the facts, no spin just plain statistics.  In my view they show us being in a terrible run of form and it's concerning the coaches haven't been able to find a way to get out of it.  Your view is that because we started well the fact that we've been playing like relegation candidates for a significant time doesn't matter and all will be well next season.  I hope you're right.  But any manager should rightly be scrutinised with a run of form like that.

[dave.woodhall]

A lot of the discussions have been about our form over a sustained period of time Drummond, with some saying relegation form and others challenging it.

Those are the facts, no spin just plain statistics.  In my view they show us being in a terrible run of form and it's concerning the coaches haven't been able to find a way to get out of it.  Your view is that because we started well the fact that we've been playing like relegation candidates for a significant time doesn't matter and all will be well next season.  I hope you're right.  But any manager should rightly be scrutinised with a run of form like that.

And yet more than twenty years later, John Gregory is still hailed as a success on the back of Top At Christmas, with the rest of the season conveniently forgotten.

[Drummond]

A lot of the discussions have been about our form over a sustained period of time Drummond, with some saying relegation form and others challenging it.

Those are the facts, no spin just plain statistics.  In my view they show us being in a terrible run of form and it's concerning the coaches haven't been able to find a way to get out of it.  Your view is that because we started well the fact that we've been playing like relegation candidates for a significant time doesn't matter and all will be well next season.  I hope you're right.  But any manager should rightly be scrutinised with a run of form like that.

I know, I was just playing along. I know our form of late hasn't been great, we've given away too many points (see Sunday) but I still believe we're better than we were and are heading in the right direction. The argument about relegation form funnily enough coincides with the absence of one of the greats and the loan signing not getting back on form after injury. It all shows we need better players and just how far the division has moved on over the years we spent in decline.

[paul_e]

It is my narrative I hold my hands up
For years you me and others complained about Doig running Villa like the Cornershop never realising the potential never realising what could be achieved

Well it’s the same on here with a lot of people everyone telling us what we can’t do And why we can’t do it
making excuses of why we haven’t
And then trying to pretend that’s scraping out of relegation by a single point not even winning our last game but relying on others to bail us out was in fact some great season

It wasn’t it was Cornershop mentality

No one is saying we can't do things, people are saying that it's not under-performing that we haven't already done them. I think we'll be challenging for Europe next season and I think that's because we've done things in a good way for the last couple of years and focused on growing the team naturally and signing players that can grow and improve together. 2-3 years to establish ourselves after 10 years of shite isn't cornershop mentality, it's reality.

[john e]

But the new narrative now is ‘well we’ve improved this season, what did you expect‘
Well I expected more last season for a start
Where we are now is where we should’ve been last year
I’ve heard all the excuses of why we aren’t and I’m not bothered it’s not a race to the bottom

I won't quote everything but this bit, for me, shows a lack of understanding of what happens to play off winners. Since the formation of the premier league well over half of teams promoted from the play offs have been relegated the next season. A team that finishes 3-6 in the championship is out of its depth in the premier league and the only way around that is to spend big on improving the squad but that comes with it's own dangers of "doing a Fulham" because you're going into a very competitive league with a squad that are still getting to know each other.

a play off team not going back down is always an achievement, history shows that clearly.

Like I’ve said before let’s start comparing ourselves with those who have and those who have attained better than the average rather than the race to the bottom which so many including yourself are so keen on

Yes, let's ignore everything that doesn't fit in with your narrative.

It is my narrative I hold my hands up
For years you me and others complained about Doig running Villa like the Cornershop never realising the potential never realising what could be achieved

Well it’s the same on here with a lot of people everyone telling us what we can’t do And why we can’t do it
making excuses of why we haven’t
And then trying to pretend that’s scraping out of relegation by a single point not even winning our last game but relying on others to bail us out was in fact some great season

It wasn’t it was Cornershop mentality

Nobody was saying that at all so don't try putting words into anyone's mouth, least of all mine. Last season was not "cornershop mentality" (whatever that might mean) and neither was it a great season. We achieved the primary aim of staying up. This season has been better, and again we achieved what was realistically the aim of mid-table. Next season the aim will be higher. Nobody is saying any different, nobody is making excuses. 

That’s your narrative
I’m saying too many excuses are being made all the time
You and others disagree that’s fine it’s a football forum that happens

I’m not calling for Dean Smith head I never have
But I do think we will need a better manager to take us into the top part of the Premier League just has all those teams that Drummond has showcased Had to do before they reached it as well

But at the moment there is no replacements For Dean Smith that are available or good enough so I’m happy for him to remain but he’s going to have to do far better than he has just lately

[dave.woodhall]

It's not my 'narrative'. It's the truth.

[paul_e]

A lot of the discussions have been about our form over a sustained period of time Drummond, with some saying relegation form and others challenging it.

Those are the facts, no spin just plain statistics.  In my view they show us being in a terrible run of form and it's concerning the coaches haven't been able to find a way to get out of it.  Your view is that because we started well the fact that we've been playing like relegation candidates for a significant time doesn't matter and all will be well next season.  I hope you're right.  But any manager should rightly be scrutinised with a run of form like that.

but all the statistics started with you incorrectly claiming 4 wins in 24 games which wasn't true, I just pointed out that you were wrong. You've then thrown a bit of strop and changed your criteria so you can carry on moaning about things being shit.

Everyone knows the second half of the season has been disappointing but we all know, deep down, that 9-12 was about where we hoped/expected to finish this year and that's what will happen. So what if the wins that got us there came early in the season they don't mean any less. I think it's pretty obvious that our early season form was based around a core of 12-13 players who were on top of their game and has been disrupted by injuries and lack of form in that group. This summer will almost certainly mean that group grows to 16-17 players and form/injury problems for 2-3 of them at once will be easier to absorb.

[Clive W]

The first objective of any promoted side is to stay promoted and not go straight down again

We achieved that

Then the next objective is to consolidate, improve and build a sustainable base

I think my maths is robust enough even at my age to conclude that finishing 11th is an improvement on 17th

And for the first time in goodness knows how many seasons I actually enjoyed my Xmas dinner without desperately looking for 3 teams worse than us

[RamboandBruno]

We have improved on last season
But last season was rubbish we were poor for most of it
I’ve never seen last season as a big achievement for Dean I thought we were clinging on for dear life when we should’ve been further up the table anyway

But the new narrative now is ‘well we’ve improved this season, what did you expect‘
Well I expected more last season for a start
Where we are now is where we should’ve been last year
I’ve heard all the excuses of why we aren’t and I’m not bothered it’s not a race to the bottom

Why don’t we start looking positively and believe in what we can do rather than what we can’t do
Why don’t we start posting stuff about Where we want to be and not why we can’t get there

Someone says that be Bielsa has done a better job in his first season in the prem and there’s A bunch load of people telling us why he has and why Dean couldn’t
I don’t give a fuck I’m not interested in excuses
I’m just interested in us being where we should be with the outlay the squad and the set up
And right now it’s not good enough

We should’ve been out of the championship first time of asking But we employ useless managers until Dean came
We were the Man City of that league without the competition of Chelsea Man United Liverpool etc
We literally should’ve pissed it

Last season we were big spenders I know we renewed the squad but we aren’t Sheffield United Fulham West Brom, bournemouth Norwich or Watford yet we played like them and acted like them

We’ve got to start being more positive about the future and not making excuses for the failings of the past
And for me last season was a failing, And the second half of this season has been to

Let’s not use underperforming as the new standard to improve on
we need higher standards than that

But John, it’s not being negative to suggest we have improved over the last couple of years and will keep on improving. I also don’t think it’s particularly positive to say we should of been out of the championship first time, based on what exactly, the 6 years previous to that of mis-management when we’d been circling the drain, the assessment that we should of been promoted at first time of asking is based on the name of Aston Villa and nothing more as far as I can see.
We got promoted with (and all due to respect to them) a team and squad filled out with journeymen past their journeymen best, Hutton, Whealen, Jedinak, Elphick, Adomah, Hourihane to a much lesser extent and loanees in Abraham and Tuanzebe. I had us optimistically finishing about 15th knowing nothing about a lot of the players we bought in the summer of 2019.
It’s not negative to be positive about Smith and what he’s done to date, it’s not negative to say despite the disappointing fizzling out in 2021, we are in a much better place than we have been probably since 2009 at least.
I’m sure we all want massive success now, right this minute, but who does life work like that for. Even Man City with their oil money didn’t start winning leagues or even trophies in the first year or two.
If things go pear shaped next season or there is no progression, I would get the annoyance and frustration but not at the moment, that’s just me personally.

[paul_e]

But John, it’s not being negative to suggest we have improved over the last couple of years and will keep on improving. I also don’t think it’s particularly positive to say we should of been out of the championship first time, based on what exactly, the 6 years previous to that of mid management when we’d been circling the drain, the assessment that we should of been promoted at first time of asking is based on the name of Aston Villa and nothing more as far as I can see.
We got promoted with (and all due to respect to them) a team and squad filled out with journeymen past their journeymen best, Hutton, Whealen, Jedinak, Elphick, Adonai, Hourihane to a much lesser extent and loanees in Abraham and Tuanzebe. I had us optimistically finishing about 15th knowing nothing about a lot of the players we bought in the summer of 2019.
It’s not negative to be positive about Smith and what he’s done to date, it’s not negative to say despite the disappointing fizzling out in 2021, we are in a much better place than we have been probably since 2009 at least.
I’m sure we all want massive success now, right this minute, but who does life work like that for. Even Man City with their oil money didn’t start winning leagues or even trophies in the first year or two.
If things go pear shaped next season or there is no progression, I would get the annoyance and frustration but not at the moment, that’s just me personally.

It's just took me far too long to translate that to Adomah than I'm happy with.

[chrisw1]

A lot of the discussions have been about our form over a sustained period of time Drummond, with some saying relegation form and others challenging it.

Those are the facts, no spin just plain statistics.  In my view they show us being in a terrible run of form and it's concerning the coaches haven't been able to find a way to get out of it.  Your view is that because we started well the fact that we've been playing like relegation candidates for a significant time doesn't matter and all will be well next season.  I hope you're right.  But any manager should rightly be scrutinised with a run of form like that.

but all the statistics started with you incorrectly claiming 4 wins in 24 games which wasn't true, I just pointed out that you were wrong. You've then thrown a bit of strop and changed your criteria so you can carry on moaning about things being shit.

Everyone knows the second half of the season has been disappointing but we all know, deep down, that 9-12 was about where we hoped/expected to finish this year and that's what will happen. So what if the wins that got us there came early in the season they don't mean any less. I think it's pretty obvious that our early season form was based around a core of 12-13 players who were on top of their game and has been disrupted by injuries and lack of form in that group. This summer will almost certainly mean that group grows to 16-17 players and form/injury problems for 2-3 of them at once will be easier to absorb.

I haven't thrown a strop - so fuck off with that comment.  I said a while back I'd counted incorrectly - not that it really changes the picture.   You and Risso were discusing form tables I just thought I'd highlight the actual stats rather than skewed tables where we'd played 2 or 3 more games than some other teams.  People can draw their own conclusions on whether the form is a problem or not, but to be honest over the last 10-15 games it's even worse than I'd realised.