John Terry - Gone

[Diablo]

I can see why some would get upset comparing Gerald Appleyard (who so far has made 16 appearances for us in the 2nd division) with Paul McGrath who made 253 appearances for us in the top division. In my opinion (despite the comparisons) they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph ;-)

Drop the Appleyard thing, it's pathetic beyond belief.  But yes I agree, Terry is no Paul McGrath.

Chris with all due respect I'm not sure quite why it is upsetting you so but you are entitled to your opinion and I mine. I personally think the Gerald Appleyard love in is pathetic beyond belief but hey ho! Nice to know we agree with the McGrath side of things though. Any who Merry Christmas and UTV! 

[Diablo]

I can see why some would get upset comparing Gerald Appleyard (who so far has made 16 appearances for us in the 2nd division) with Paul McGrath who made 253 appearances for us in the top division. In my opinion (despite the comparisons) they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph ;-)

Drop the Appleyard thing, it's pathetic beyond belief.  But yes I agree, Terry is no Paul McGrath.

Can someone please tell me who the fuck Gerald Appleyard is?

It's a name to replace 'John Terry'  Some think is humorous.  It's not.

Thanks. And I agree. It's not funny.

Due to John Terry's rather chequered, narcissistic and (more importantly for some) racist past the name arose organically earlier in the thread by some of the fans who weren't too happy with the association. There's humour in it but there's also a reason behind it. Whilst he's in a Villa shirt he'll always be Gerald Appleyard to me ;-)

[ChicagoLion]

I can see why some would get upset comparing Gerald Appleyard (who so far has made 16 appearances for us in the 2nd division) with Paul McGrath who made 253 appearances for us in the top division. In my opinion (despite the comparisons) they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph ;-)

Drop the Appleyard thing, it's pathetic beyond belief.  But yes I agree, Terry is no Paul McGrath.

Can someone please tell me who the fuck Gerald Appleyard is?

It's a name to replace 'John Terry'  Some think is humorous.  It's not.

Thanks. And I agree. It's not funny.

It’s as funny as Barry and the penalty if you are 11.

[stuart445]

Listening to John Terry on Sky tonight I'm convinced he's got a job lined up on the management staff when we do get promoted. He'll retire from playing once we've achieved promotion. His list of contacts are second to none.

I've no doubt that's the case, all this support for the team whilst injured isn't a sudden conversion to our club. Still, if we get something out of it then he's useful on and off the field.

All this support? He was watching Chelsea at the weekend rather than us.

Who could blame him?!

He's also driven himself to watch a game in East Anglia when he wasn't playing, was on the bench in others whilst injured. Do you expect him to be at every game?

As team captain and on the books of the Villa to the tune of £60k a week?  Yes, I absolutely expect him to be there every game.

There seems to be an incredibly low expectation bar set for players these days - first he was lauded for doing some training and now he's being given a free pass to skip games when he'd rather go to watch Chelsea.  If the cost of my season ticket is contributing to his extortionate salary he can suffer our "performances" just like me!

Do you really think all injured players go to all games?

He's shown his commitment and if that's not enough for you then such is life.

As Ad@m said he isn't just an injured player is he. As club captain he has different responsibilities than say Kodjia.

[Neil Hawkes]

I am surprised that there are so many that think someones personal life must be on hold, when they are employed by the greatest team on the planet. He's a Chelsea supporter and, although injured, still goes to more of our matches than he does their matches. I don't give a toss how many millions someone is paid, you can only dedicate so much of your personal life to work related activities before everything around you turns to shit, a healthy balance is required.

[boozey182]

Our major problem is the goals for column not the goals against. But I don't think anyone can seriously think that we aren't a better overall  team with Terry playing. The club seriously needs to focus on our attacking prowess.The defence, including the keeper are good enough to get us promoted but it won't happen until we rattle the onion bag a lot more often.

Absolutely, my point is more the one you make after, whilst Terry is a great player and does make us look better that hasn't translated to points on the board (the one stat I didn't include but it's fairly clear from the win and draw percentages that he doesn't really change our 'points per game' stat).  My post was aimed at the 'rather have Terry back than Kodjia' comments, Kodjia actually affects the table for us, Terry doesn't seem to despite being the better player of the 2.

Just for fun, let me put forward an argument that says we could be a better side when Terry is not in it. Or at least a theory why we have got more points per game without him in the team.

Our game is totally focused on minimising mistakes and weaknesses, to keep a clean sheet and get a goal when we're on top. Terry and Chester are probably the best two centre backs in the league, but both lack pace and height (or at least a big leap to compensate). I don't think they complement each other and leaves us with a couple of weaknesses. Samba and Jedinak, while nowhere near as good as either Chester or Terry, plug a hole, so to speak.

Terry's strengths are his ability to read the game and his distribution. Again he's probably the best in the league in these respects. But with our stationary midfield there's only so much he can do with his distribution. He's not going to create goals. And this league doesn't contain too many players that can slice us open, so his reading of the game isn't as important as it would have been for Chelsea against more sharp-witted opposition. So in terms of tangible benefits, there isn't much he offers.

There's his leadership. But that's incredibly difficult to measure. The fact we've done slightly better since he's been out suggests that we might over estimate his role in this regard. Maybe he's instilled something in the team that can be kept going while he's out... Who knows? We had good runs last season without him, we've had bad runs this season with him. It's difficult to measure.

The best players don't always make the best teams. I remember saying in the summer we needed the next Ugo to play to Chester. I still think that.

To be honest, I'm not sure I fully buy into this theory myself, but thought I'd offer it up to discuss. Like has been said, the sample size is too small to draw any serious conclusions, but we definitely haven't got worse since he was out so thought it would be interesting to try to work out why.

[Ad@m]

I am surprised that there are so many that think someones personal life must be on hold, when they are employed by the greatest team on the planet. He's a Chelsea supporter and, although injured, still goes to more of our matches than he does their matches. I don't give a toss how many millions someone is paid, you can only dedicate so much of your personal life to work related activities before everything around you turns to shit, a healthy balance is required.

He is a professional footballer - as an absolute minimum I'd describe the 90 minutes the club he's captain of are playing to be working rather than personal life.  As a general rule, you'd be hard pushed to find many people who think professional footballers are overworked!

[paul_e]

Our major problem is the goals for column not the goals against. But I don't think anyone can seriously think that we aren't a better overall  team with Terry playing. The club seriously needs to focus on our attacking prowess.The defence, including the keeper are good enough to get us promoted but it won't happen until we rattle the onion bag a lot more often.

Absolutely, my point is more the one you make after, whilst Terry is a great player and does make us look better that hasn't translated to points on the board (the one stat I didn't include but it's fairly clear from the win and draw percentages that he doesn't really change our 'points per game' stat).  My post was aimed at the 'rather have Terry back than Kodjia' comments, Kodjia actually affects the table for us, Terry doesn't seem to despite being the better player of the 2.

Just for fun, let me put forward an argument that says we could be a better side when Terry is not in it. Or at least a theory why we have got more points per game without him in the team.

Our game is totally focused on minimising mistakes and weaknesses, to keep a clean sheet and get a goal when we're on top. Terry and Chester are probably the best two centre backs in the league, but both lack pace and height (or at least a big leap to compensate). I don't think they complement each other and leaves us with a couple of weaknesses. Samba and Jedinak, while nowhere near as good as either Chester or Terry, plug a hole, so to speak.

Terry's strengths are his ability to read the game and his distribution. Again he's probably the best in the league in these respects. But with our stationary midfield there's only so much he can do with his distribution. He's not going to create goals. And this league doesn't contain too many players that can slice us open, so his reading of the game isn't as important as it would have been for Chelsea against more sharp-witted opposition. So in terms of tangible benefits, there isn't much he offers.

There's his leadership. But that's incredibly difficult to measure. The fact we've done slightly better since he's been out suggests that we might over estimate his role in this regard. Maybe he's instilled something in the team that can be kept going while he's out... Who knows? We had good runs last season without him, we've had bad runs this season with him. It's difficult to measure.

The best players don't always make the best teams. I remember saying in the summer we needed the next Ugo to play to Chester. I still think that.

To be honest, I'm not sure I fully buy into this theory myself, but thought I'd offer it up to discuss. Like has been said, the sample size is too small to draw any serious conclusions, but we definitely haven't got worse since he was out so thought it would be interesting to try to work out why.

I agree that him and Chester are an uncomfortable pairing but I think they're both so good (for this league) that they make it work.  Samba an Jedinak are nothing like as talented but as you say, make a more natural pairing with either Terry or Chester so again, that works well.  What it really means is that so long as 1 of Terry or Chester is fit i think our defence is fine and will continue to be less than a goal a game conceded, which is great for what we want to achieve.

That was really my point, Terry is a fantastic player but he doesn't make us a significantly better team with his performances.  As you say he may well have added some leadership and professionalism off the pitch that's harder to quantify and I certainly don't think he was a waste of money or a bad signing I just think his absence is being overplayed by some people when, in truth, we haven't missed him.

[Ads]

We have the second best defence in the league so he's doing something right. We were pretty handy at the back last year, but I think we've improved, certainly with distribution.

[Hookeysmith]

So 

any news on his fitness and possible return?

[chrisw1]

I am surprised that there are so many that think someones personal life must be on hold, when they are employed by the greatest team on the planet. He's a Chelsea supporter and, although injured, still goes to more of our matches than he does their matches. I don't give a toss how many millions someone is paid, you can only dedicate so much of your personal life to work related activities before everything around you turns to shit, a healthy balance is required.

He is a professional footballer - as an absolute minimum I'd describe the 90 minutes the club he's captain of are playing to be working rather than personal life.  As a general rule, you'd be hard pushed to find many people who think professional footballers are overworked!

I just don't get the problem here.  No injured players, club captains or not, would be expected to go to every game home and away.  The travelling isn't great use of their time for one thing during rehab.  I don't see why you are going out the way to criticise him for this, it's beyond desperate.

[paul_e]

We have the second best defence in the league so he's doing something right. We were pretty handy at the back last year, but I think we've improved, certainly with distribution.

but the defence has been just as solid in the 6 games since he got injured.  The improvements could be down a number of things (including the professionalism he's helped instil. As I said, I'm not in any way saying he's a bad player or that he shouldn't start again as soon as he's fully fit this is specifically an argument against the idea that we've missed him massively and that him coming back will be more important that Kodjia coming back.  Kodjia being out for most of the season will have a huge impact on us because none of the other strikers look capable of scoring the goals we need to challenge at the top.  I think Bruce realised that as well which is why he came back in when he really didn't look ready.

[chrisw1]

We have the second best defence in the league so he's doing something right. We were pretty handy at the back last year, but I think we've improved, certainly with distribution.

but the defence has been just as solid in the 6 games since he got injured.  The improvements could be down a number of things (including the professionalism he's helped instil. As I said, I'm not in any way saying he's a bad player or that he shouldn't start again as soon as he's fully fit this is specifically an argument against the idea that we've missed him massively and that him coming back will be more important that Kodjia coming back.  Kodjia being out for most of the season will have a huge impact on us because none of the other strikers look capable of scoring the goals we need to challenge at the top.  I think Bruce realised that as well which is why he came back in when he really didn't look ready.

I agree.  Kodjia coming back would probably be more important right now.  But I think the fact we are in the position we are has an awful lot to do with what Terry brought to the party.

[Chris Smith]

We have adopted a more conservative approach without Terry, protecting the back 4 more and as a result sacrificing some attacking intent. On top of his defensive capabilities we also miss his organisational abilities, composure and readiness to pass the ball to build from from the back. Quite simply we are a better team when he is playing.

[Ads]

Should be back for Boro.

That's a possibility Chris. I don't think we can knock the midfield this year. We were concerned about goals and really looking at whether the midfield would step up and they have weighed in with the lions share.

Its the forwards who have let us down and injuries have really hampered that. Kodjia, Hogan and Gabby have missed a bundle of games so far, so we've been reliant on Davis. Kodjia being out is a massive blow, but we've dealt well with that so far. Key to get through the next few fixtures and make sure we add one or two.

I really think we may see two up top. If Hogan and Gabby can weigh in with some goals over the next five or six games then all the better. Certainly worth seeing them play as if there isn't much to spend due to FFP, then we have to go with what we've got.

Terry being the best defender in the league certainly makes it easier to play 442 with confidence.