Poll - Sherwood - got rid

[Dave]

Majority influence takes effect at time like these. With have no more or less data to assess than we did on Saturday, save emotion has now expired. We have a forum to talk, so these things begin to amplify as time passes.

It works both ways.

To be fair to Rogers, he was only 1 part of the team that selected and sighed players...why other members of that team have not been held to account is anyones guess.

Rodgers had to accept players being signed for him, who he didn't want. How is that going to work out in the dressing room? I understand a group able to veto the manager if he wants to make a stupid signing - we could have used that when MON was in charge - but forcing players on the manager is a daft idea.

do we know that isn't happening at Villa? do we know that the French players, and others signed, are Timmy's choices and not Reilly's?

I'm pretty certain that the initial scouting and interest is not Sherwood's.

I can't imagine that any of them are being signed without his complete agreemend (as has been the case at Spurs and apparently Liverpool in the past), but I'd be pretty surprised if it were Sherwood who was taking in Lorient and Nice games in his spare time last season rather than the guy whose job title is 'Director of Scouting & Player Recruitment'.

[Villa in Denmark]

The same people moaning and whinging about how we are certainties for relegation are the same people who expected it and have been banging in about it the last 4 seasons, your saying exactly the same things word for word

So just as the board have got there decisions wrong so have those thinking we would be down by now,
What I'm saying is your (relegation doomsters) record is not that great, in fact 100% wrong so far! I have in no way written this season off just yet with or without Sherwood,

I don't think we will stick with Sherwood if things remain the same, so he will either turn it round or we will rely on a new manager to keep us up, either way I'm still hopefull,

mainly because we have a group of decent players, a bit of everything apart from a good striker, which is a big problem admittedly,
 Remember he did the seemingly impossible last year with a lot less time, so let's not lose faith just yet

Cross me off that list until last season.  Where stayed up by the skin off our teeth having ditched a manager that couldn't have worked out how to win a black eye in a boxing ring, let alone a football match.

I don't know what signs you've seen to think Sherwood has it within him to turn this season around.  I've not found anyone who could give a reason to keep him other than

Blind hope
Wouldn't be fair on him so soon
Small time / Newcastleesque to sack him soon.

I have blind hope over a number of things, but I don't actually expect any of them to come true
It wouldn't be fair on us to let him relegate us, and it wouldn't be fair to him to drive him down to the extent the job drove Lambert down.  In the end with Lambert it was almost a humanitarian decision to put him out of his misery and Sherwood looks like he's heading the same way.
Small time would be not sacking him because we were worried how it looked to the outside world and going down as a result.

Now has anyone got any footballing reasons to keep him that are more concrete than think/hope he'll turn it around?

The best concrete footballing reason that your looking for is -

He's already done it once

That's also perfect logic for why we shouldn't have sacked Lambert last February.

After all, he'd already done it twice.

He was asking for a reason, I gave him one
Lambert was given 2/3 seasons to prove he was shit not 8 games, I think there is a big difference there

I'm also not saying he/you are wrong, Just because he did it last season doesn't mean he can repeat the trick,
 but if your looking for a reason as VID was as to what evidence there is to for Sherwood to turn things around, then the experience of having done it 6 months ago has to be exhibit number one

2 Entirely different scenarios.

Last season. Squad that knew each other and what the league was all about. Pretty much everyone was saying if we played more on the front footballing, with a bit more ambition we'd do much better.  Relatively simple fix.

This season. Pretty much completely new squad. Large proportion of the players new to the league. Floundering around trying to find some semblance of a team that works, whilst ignoring what's been behind our 3 best 45 minutes this season. Everything screams that he doesn't know what to do to fix this.

And even if you don't accept it's 2 different scenarios, by your logic Chelsea should be about 5 points clear at the top and Wigan would still be playing in the top flight.

What is it they say about financial investments? Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns?

That's not a concrete footballing reason , that's blind hope.

Although not directly in the question, in the context of the rest of what I wrote, I was looking for footballing reasons from this season.

Just saying he did it last year? That's not a concrete footballing reason , that's blind hope.

[PeterWithesShin]

Using Liverpool as an example is bizarre. They give their manager millions and millions to spend and then sack him out of fear that Chelsea might sack Mourinho and get Klopp first.

Rodgers has only been given millions and millions in the same way that Sherwood has - most of the money we spent was recouped through players sales, but so was most of the money that Liverpool spent.

I read his net spend was something like £125m with his gross spend was approx £250m. That's a fair chunk of change to be as poor as they are.

[PeterWithesShin]

The same people moaning and whinging about how we are certainties for relegation are the same people who expected it and have been banging in about it the last 4 seasons, your saying exactly the same things word for word

So just as the board have got there decisions wrong so have those thinking we would be down by now,
What I'm saying is your (relegation doomsters) record is not that great, in fact 100% wrong so far! I have in no way written this season off just yet with or without Sherwood,

I don't think we will stick with Sherwood if things remain the same, so he will either turn it round or we will rely on a new manager to keep us up, either way I'm still hopefull,

mainly because we have a group of decent players, a bit of everything apart from a good striker, which is a big problem admittedly,
 Remember he did the seemingly impossible last year with a lot less time, so let's not lose faith just yet

It's way too early to write the season off I agree. The difference though is this season we have a manager that doesn't know his best 11, doesn't know what formation he wants us playing or what style of play he wants. As shit as their styles and formations were, at least Lambert and McLeish knew what they wanted, were training the players week in and week out to achieve that. To not know what you want as manager of a PL side is shocking imo.

[mr underhill]

Agreed, but in mitigation, the geezer has brought in lots of players which gives rise to several different starting 11's , formations and tactics. I'm not offering a face-saving defence for the man, just saying that there are always shades of grey. Especially when you factor injuries into the equation.

[PeterWithesShin]

I just can't help but think you sign players who will fit into the style and formation you want your side playing, not sign them and then scratch your head wondering what to do with them.

[ClaretAndBlueBlood]

I just can't help but think you sign players who will fit into the style and formation you want your side playing, not sign them and then scratch your head wondering what to do with them.

which is why I was suggesting that maybe the players we are signing aren't entirely Timmy's choices

[Dave]

I'm not offering a face-saving defence for the man, just saying that there are always shades of grey.

I'd suggest that nuance and shades-of-grey is exactly what we're missing. It's a case of "well, that didn't work so let's do something that is completely different and see if that's any better*".

Look at the team for Notts County - Gil, Grealish, Traore, Ayew and Sinclair all forced into the side.

We play pretty badly, so that means that the whole idea was bad - next round we play another lower-league side with a first-choice back four with another centre-half sitting in front of them and two more defensive midfielders in the side in front of all that. It just seems that rather than tweaking the things that aren't working, the solution is just to do the exact opposite and see if that's any better.


*something that could equally be applied to how we select our managers, but that's an essay for another day.

[aj2k77]

The same people moaning and whinging about how we are certainties for relegation are the same people who expected it and have been banging in about it the last 4 seasons, your saying exactly the same things word for word

So just as the board have got there decisions wrong so have those thinking we would be down by now,
What I'm saying is your (relegation doomsters) record is not that great, in fact 100% wrong so far! I have in no way written this season off just yet with or without Sherwood,

I don't think we will stick with Sherwood if things remain the same, so he will either turn it round or we will rely on a new manager to keep us up, either way I'm still hopefull,

mainly because we have a group of decent players, a bit of everything apart from a good striker, which is a big problem admittedly,
 Remember he did the seemingly impossible last year with a lot less time, so let's not lose faith just yet

Cross me off that list until last season.  Where stayed up by the skin off our teeth having ditched a manager that couldn't have worked out how to win a black eye in a boxing ring, let alone a football match.

I don't know what signs you've seen to think Sherwood has it within him to turn this season around.  I've not found anyone who could give a reason to keep him other than

Blind hope
Wouldn't be fair on him so soon
Small time / Newcastleesque to sack him soon.

I have blind hope over a number of things, but I don't actually expect any of them to come true
It wouldn't be fair on us to let him relegate us, and it wouldn't be fair to him to drive him down to the extent the job drove Lambert down.  In the end with Lambert it was almost a humanitarian decision to put him out of his misery and Sherwood looks like he's heading the same way.
Small time would be not sacking him because we were worried how it looked to the outside world and going down as a result.

Now has anyone got any footballing reasons to keep him that are more concrete than think/hope he'll turn it around?

I'll take being small time if being in the big time is hanging on to managers like knob head Lambert because we're afraid of being a laughing stock, besides we've already entered the realms of laughing stock many times the last few years.

[john e]

The same people moaning and whinging about how we are certainties for relegation are the same people who expected it and have been banging in about it the last 4 seasons, your saying exactly the same things word for word

So just as the board have got there decisions wrong so have those thinking we would be down by now,
What I'm saying is your (relegation doomsters) record is not that great, in fact 100% wrong so far! I have in no way written this season off just yet with or without Sherwood,

I don't think we will stick with Sherwood if things remain the same, so he will either turn it round or we will rely on a new manager to keep us up, either way I'm still hopefull,

mainly because we have a group of decent players, a bit of everything apart from a good striker, which is a big problem admittedly,
 Remember he did the seemingly impossible last year with a lot less time, so let's not lose faith just yet

Cross me off that list until last season.  Where stayed up by the skin off our teeth having ditched a manager that couldn't have worked out how to win a black eye in a boxing ring, let alone a football match.

I don't know what signs you've seen to think Sherwood has it within him to turn this season around.  I've not found anyone who could give a reason to keep him other than

Blind hope
Wouldn't be fair on him so soon
Small time / Newcastleesque to sack him soon.

I have blind hope over a number of things, but I don't actually expect any of them to come true
It wouldn't be fair on us to let him relegate us, and it wouldn't be fair to him to drive him down to the extent the job drove Lambert down.  In the end with Lambert it was almost a humanitarian decision to put him out of his misery and Sherwood looks like he's heading the same way.
Small time would be not sacking him because we were worried how it looked to the outside world and going down as a result.

Now has anyone got any footballing reasons to keep him that are more concrete than think/hope he'll turn it around?

The best concrete footballing reason that your looking for is -

He's already done it once

That's also perfect logic for why we shouldn't have sacked Lambert last February.

After all, he'd already done it twice.

He was asking for a reason, I gave him one
Lambert was given 2/3 seasons to prove he was shit not 8 games, I think there is a big difference there

I'm also not saying he/you are wrong, Just because he did it last season doesn't mean he can repeat the trick,
 but if your looking for a reason as VID was as to what evidence there is to for Sherwood to turn things around, then the experience of having done it 6 months ago has to be exhibit number one

2 Entirely different scenarios.

Last season. Squad that knew each other and what the league was all about. Pretty much everyone was saying if we played more on the front footballing, with a bit more ambition we'd do much better.  Relatively simple fix.

This season. Pretty much completely new squad. Large proportion of the players new to the league. Floundering around trying to find some semblance of a team that works, whilst ignoring what's been behind our 3 best 45 minutes this season. Everything screams that he doesn't know what to do to fix this.

And even if you don't accept it's 2 different scenarios, by your logic Chelsea should be about 5 points clear at the top and Wigan would still be playing in the top flight.

What is it they say about financial investments? Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns?

That's not a concrete footballing reason , that's blind hope.

Although not directly in the question, in the context of the rest of what I wrote, I was looking for footballing reasons from this season.

Just saying he did it last year? That's not a concrete footballing reason , that's blind hope.

But it's still a reason, you might bat it away as your minds already made up,

But you can't rewrite history it happened,
whether you like it or not, whether it's two different scenarios or not,different players etc,
 he still kept us up last season and that is indisputable

You say by my reckoning Chelsea would be here and Wigan there,
But if you read my post I wasn't arguing against your points, they might well turn out to be true

You were asking for some evidence, and I gave you a bit, you don't like it or accept it, but that is all I was doing

[john e]

The same people moaning and whinging about how we are certainties for relegation are the same people who expected it and have been banging in about it the last 4 seasons, your saying exactly the same things word for word

So just as the board have got there decisions wrong so have those thinking we would be down by now,
What I'm saying is your (relegation doomsters) record is not that great, in fact 100% wrong so far! I have in no way written this season off just yet with or without Sherwood,

I don't think we will stick with Sherwood if things remain the same, so he will either turn it round or we will rely on a new manager to keep us up, either way I'm still hopefull,

mainly because we have a group of decent players, a bit of everything apart from a good striker, which is a big problem admittedly,
 Remember he did the seemingly impossible last year with a lot less time, so let's not lose faith just yet

Cross me off that list until last season.  Where stayed up by the skin off our teeth having ditched a manager that couldn't have worked out how to win a black eye in a boxing ring, let alone a football match.

I don't know what signs you've seen to think Sherwood has it within him to turn this season around.  I've not found anyone who could give a reason to keep him other than

Blind hope
Wouldn't be fair on him so soon
Small time / Newcastleesque to sack him soon.

I have blind hope over a number of things, but I don't actually expect any of them to come true
It wouldn't be fair on us to let him relegate us, and it wouldn't be fair to him to drive him down to the extent the job drove Lambert down.  In the end with Lambert it was almost a humanitarian decision to put him out of his misery and Sherwood looks like he's heading the same way.
Small time would be not sacking him because we were worried how it looked to the outside world and going down as a result.

Now has anyone got any footballing reasons to keep him that are more concrete than think/hope he'll turn it around?

I'll take being small time if being in the big time is hanging on to managers like knob head Lambert because we're afraid of being a laughing stock, besides we've already entered the realms of laughing stock many times the last few years.

But if every manager struggled at first and after 8 games we weren't happy so we got shot,
we would get through around 5 managers every season

I'm not arguing to keep the fella infinitum or even as long as Lambert or anyway near as long
But not 8 games into a season where we have a load of new players to bed in

[themossman]

I'm not offering a face-saving defence for the man, just saying that there are always shades of grey.

I'd suggest that nuance and shades-of-grey is exactly what we're missing. It's a case of "well, that didn't work so let's do something that is completely different and see if that's any better*".

Look at the team for Notts County - Gil, Grealish, Traore, Ayew and Sinclair all forced into the side.

We play pretty badly, so that means that the whole idea was bad - next round we play another lower-league side with a first-choice back four with another centre-half sitting in front of them and two more defensive midfielders in the side in front of all that. It just seems that rather than tweaking the things that aren't working, the solution is just to do the exact opposite and see if that's any better.


*something that could equally be applied to how we select our managers, but that's an essay for another day.

It's the football management equivalent of that board game Mastermind.

[Clampy]

Anyway, if a new manager does come in, he's not going to know his best side either. I'm with John, it's too soon to be talking about getting rid of him or relegation.

[aj2k77]

John, I get your point and I agree in general but there's something not right here, the way he's lowering expectations, the contradictions, the interviews, the weird tactics, random team selections. If we were seeing some sort of tangible plan and improvement where we could go yeah I see what he's trying to do, there's a team in there. I don't though, everything screams to me of him throwing mud at the wall and hoping it will stick.

We've hired a complete novice.

[john e]

Anyway, if a new manager does come in, he's not going to know his best side either. I'm with John, it's too soon to be talking about getting rid of him or relegation.

not only is it to soon, he deserves more time for the job he did last season when loads thought we were doomed

I could understand it if there was some shit hot manager hanging around ready to be snapped up
but most are calling for Sam Allardyce for fucks sake