International Rugby

[UK Redsox]

Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.

Thought the ref had a very good game

Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)

The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"

Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.

It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.

Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.

My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.

A fascinating game

[nigel]

Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.

Thought the ref had a very good game

Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)

The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"

Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.

It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.

Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.

My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.

A fascinating game

He was right, though. The ref told Hartley and Haskell that if an Italian was within a metre they could be pulled in, hence forming a ruck

[paul_e]

Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.

Thought the ref had a very good game

Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)

The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"

Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.

It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.

Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.

My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.

A fascinating game

He was right, though. The ref told Hartley and Haskell that if an Italian was within a metre they could be pulled in, hence forming a ruck

It's a very difficult one because pulling people in (such as the scrum-half) is a penalty offence so it would be a real tightrope.  Keeping the ball off the floor (offloading) and quick pick and drive to force them to close the gaps was the right solution.  Other than some truly pathetic defending by Ford and Brown the second half should've been 31-0 which would've been a fair reflection of the dominance once we got the hang of the breakdown.

However all that said I thought the ref had an excellent game other than the Nowell disallowed try which he blew up far too early and I thought he should've checked for a high tackle in the first half.  Can't remember who it was but the commentators mentioned it as well.

[peter w]

To be honest as effective as it was it was anti-rugby by italy. Clearly designed to keep the score down and with 15 mins or so left they would have believed they could have won it. Add in some poor kicking - although i acknowledge that Farrell was saying it was difficult because the wind was swirling around - and a very flat Twickenham crowd (not a day for Scots Leavers to be watching) and it was all in all pretty uninspiring. That said, given that Scotland will come to play I doubt this will have much bearing on that result.

[nigel]

Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.

Thought the ref had a very good game

Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)

The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"

Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.

It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.

Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.

My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.

A fascinating game

He was right, though. The ref told Hartley and Haskell that if an Italian was within a metre they could be pulled in, hence forming a ruck

It's a very difficult one because pulling people in (such as the scrum-half) is a penalty offence so it would be a real tightrope.  Keeping the ball off the floor (offloading) and quick pick and drive to force them to close the gaps was the right solution.  Other than some truly pathetic defending by Ford and Brown the second half should've been 31-0 which would've been a fair reflection of the dominance once we got the hang of the breakdown.

However all that said I thought the ref had an excellent game other than the Nowell disallowed try which he blew up far too early and I thought he should've checked for a high tackle in the first half.  Can't remember who it was but the commentators mentioned it as well.

That's probably why they decided against the 'pulling in ', even though the ref said about the metre distance.
Thought at the time it was a touch harsh on Nowell.

There's a great interview with Eddie, on facebook, doing the rounds. I'll try and put it on here, unless someone beats me to it.

[Jon Crofts]

And that's my point regarding the referee, his rulings were ambiguous at best and as clear as mud. Owens would have provided clear direction I'm sure.
Anyway, why was Nowells try disallowed, it certainly wasn't clear to us?

Thanks Conor O'Shea for producing anti rugby for 82000 paying customers.

[nigel]

And that's my point regarding the referee, his rulings were ambiguous at best and as clear as mud. Owens would have provided clear direction I'm sure.
Anyway, why was Nowells try disallowed, it certainly wasn't clear to us?

Thanks Conor O'Shea for producing anti rugby for 82000 paying customers.

Nowell nudged into Hughes and I think Hughes was adjudged to have impeded a tackler.
I thought it harsh as from the camera angle it looked as if it was behind the ruck, or non ruck as the case may be. I'll need to remind myself on that.

[Jon Crofts]

Thanks Nigel.

Can a player be cited for simulation and being a huge Nancy? One Italian did a great impression of being felled by an imaginary tackle, he went down like Aarjen Robben, Ashley Young and Cristiano Ronaldo all rolled into one.

[Dante Lavelli]

I think that match might speed up the transition from Hartley to George.  I like Hartley more than most, but he failed to find an answer to Italy's tactics and it shouldn't really need the coach to address it at half time.  That criticism can be applied to most of the pack however as captain he should be managing the game on the pitch.

[Abruzzo_John]

I for one am very proud of the Italian approach. They didn't go to Twickenham to lie down and die. They used the laws of the game to their advantage so much so that they easily won the first half. There was nothing new in what they did but the English team couldn't adapt until they were coached at half time. Of course it was going to change in the second hal. For the Italian press and support it was a moral victory and signs that with a good coach better times lie ahead. Forza italia.

[paul_e]

And that's my point regarding the referee, his rulings were ambiguous at best and as clear as mud. Owens would have provided clear direction I'm sure.
Anyway, why was Nowells try disallowed, it certainly wasn't clear to us?

Thanks Conor O'Shea for producing anti rugby for 82000 paying customers.

Nowell nudged into Hughes and I think Hughes was adjudged to have impeded a tackler.
I thought it harsh as from the camera angle it looked as if it was behind the ruck, or non ruck as the case may be. I'll need to remind myself on that.

This is a very tough one, the defender half hid behind Hughes and remember Hughes wasn't offside because it was 'only a tackle'. Given that Hughes didn't move to cover Nowell and Nowell didn't intentionally use Hughes as a shield it had a definite element of doubt and I think the ref realised that which is why he went to the TV replay. I think they just about got it right in the end but he still should've waited for Nowell to touchdown before he blew up because if they'd have decided it wasn't obstruction they'd have had to disallow the try anyway and we'd have just had a scrum which would've been ridiculous.  I'd like to think that both teams would've been mature enough at that point that Italy would've just let us run one in but I think the ref would've been toast if it happened.

I think that match might speed up the transition from Hartley to George.  I like Hartley more than most, but he failed to find an answer to Italy's tactics and it shouldn't really need the coach to address it at half time.  That criticism can be applied to most of the pack however as captain he should be managing the game on the pitch.

I disagree, I think it's unfair to really blame anyone, it's a tactic that is very rarely seen and our entire gameplan would've been around winning the contact and creating gaps.  As the commentators said there's very few teams that could've adapted on the fly to it but it was a tactic that was only ever going to work until they had a chance to regroup and discuss it.  The other point from the commentators was valid though, an 'injury' which stopped the game for 3-4 minutes when there was about 15 on the clock might've been a good way to handle things and have a chat. I wouldn't condone faking an injury though, that would be terrible (whistley emote thingy).

Thanks Nigel.

Can a player be cited for simulation and being a huge Nancy? One Italian did a great impression of being felled by an imaginary tackle, he went down like Aarjen Robben, Ashley Young and Cristiano Ronaldo all rolled into one.

That was the scrum half and to be fair he did go off shortly after but, as the replays showed, there was no foul play he just ran into Farrell and came off worse, all Farrell did was brace himself for the impact.

Moving on I thought it was, overall, a decent performance from England but Hughes had a shocking half and a very good half, Care had a terrible first half and then got subbed just as he was starting to play well and Cole, Ford, Farrell and Brown were all well below their best, the latter being part of a trend that's been running for a long time now, I honestly don't think he's got much longer at this level; his none tackle for their score in the 2nd half was national league standard defending.

I still think Daly was the best player on the pitch, he defended really well and then when we started getting asome more ball he used it superbly.  It's hard for a winger to be involved enough to get the man of the match award and it tends to only happen if they score a hatful but I honestly think it was very near to a perfect performance from Daly, I can't think of a single time where he could've done better or he made a bad decision.  Adding that to my comment above I'd switch him to fullback for the scots and bring Watson in on the wing, it just feels like the right time for that change.  I also can't imagine that Youngs has much time left.  Him coming on stifled us for 10-15 minutes just when we'd got on top and that could've been costly against a better side.

Finally I think some of the comments about Italy are a little unfair, I think they deserve a huge amount of credit for their first half performance, it's just a shame that they got carried away and tried to do it for the 2nd half as well.  I think it was undeniably negative but thy were the away time and have never beaten England in 22 previous meetings so coming to try to frustrate us is a perfectly reasonable approach.

[nigel]

I for one am very proud of the Italian approach. They didn't go to Twickenham to lie down and die. They used the laws of the game to their advantage so much so that they easily won the first half. There was nothing new in what they did but the English team couldn't adapt until they were coached at half time. Of course it was going to change in the second hal. For the Italian press and support it was a moral victory and signs that with a good coach better times lie ahead. Forza italia.

The problem is Italy won't develop their game if they start playing to stop the oposition rather than try to attack.
Yes,  it worked for 40 minutes, but, for me, it was a step backwards, as I doubt that tactic will work again.

I remember a few years back Italy came to Twickenham and played some lovely stuff in the first half before falling away. The building blocks are there, they've just got to put them in place.
Argentina were in the same boat, but, they have developed their game and are a first class team.

[Tony Daleys Shorts]

I think that match might speed up the transition from Hartley to George.  I like Hartley more than most, but he failed to find an answer to Italy's tactics and it shouldn't really need the coach to address it at half time.  That criticism can be applied to most of the pack however as captain he should be managing the game on the pitch.

If it wasn't for the captaincy I'd pick Jamie George over Hartley now, I think he's improved past him. Tricky one for Jones.

[paul_e]

I don't agree.  Hartley does a lot of dirty work for the team.  He's an excellent fringe defender, he puts in a huge number of tackles for a hooker and he gets to virtually every breakdown as one of the first 2-3 support players.  He's also a better scrummager and thrower. George is a superb player in the loose but if you're going with those 2 as the hookers in the matchday squad then Hartley starts and George provides impact after about 50-55 minutes is the perfect setup.  Give it a year or 2 and that may change, partly because I can see Tommy Taylor forcing his way into the reckoning which will make it a much more complicated situation.

[Jon Crofts]

I for one am very proud of the Italian approach. They didn't go to Twickenham to lie down and die. They used the laws of the game to their advantage so much so that they easily won the first half. There was nothing new in what they did but the English team couldn't adapt until they were coached at half time. Of course it was going to change in the second hal. For the Italian press and support it was a moral victory and signs that with a good coach better times lie ahead. Forza italia.

The problem is Italy won't develop their game if they start playing to stop the oposition rather than try to attack.
Yes,  it worked for 40 minutes, but, for me, it was a step backwards, as I doubt that tactic will work again.

I remember a few years back Italy came to Twickenham and played some lovely stuff in the first half before falling away. The building blocks are there, they've just got to put them in place.
Argentina were in the same boat, but, they have developed their game and are a first class team.

You're right and I see the approach has drawn even more criticism today including a commentary along the lines of 'Italy proved themselves unfit to play at this level of rugby on Sunday' basically if you can't mix it with the big boys then someone else should get the chance.

Have Italy regressed the past few years or have the other 5 teams improved much much more? Probably a bit of both, they (Italy) aren't playing anything like they were a few seasons ago, mind you nor are Scotland!