Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: cdbearsfan on September 15, 2015, 05:09:15 PM
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Worth its own thread I reckon.
Got a £10 e/w bet on France in the unlikely event that Scotland don't storm to victory.
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I can't see the frogs winning it. England are the only Northern Hemisphere side with a shot to my mind. They really need to win the group of death though.
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Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.
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If I were to bet right now I'd go for Australia, they've got pace and quality out wide, a solid front 5 and then the best back row in the tournament which is what will make the difference. I think whoever tops our group is in the final either way though so we need to hit the ground running and get every point we can.
For England we've only really got Ford as a 'playmaker' in the squad for the first game so we're putting a lot of pressure on him. JJ and the wingers are superb outside backs who can rip anyone apart given half a yard but I just don't see anyone who will make those gaps consistently, the options at 12 are pathetic in terms of creating play. My opinion on the back row is clear so I won't go over that again and I think Youngs is a decent option from the bench but he's nothing like good enough at the set piece to be the starting hooker, the decision to throw Hartley to the wolves over a nothing incident looked bad at the time and the 3 summer games have shown it to be fucking idiotic. I genuinely think Lancaster is going to throw away a great chance of winning the world cup at home because he wanted t pick 'nice guys' rather than the best players.
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May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.
I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.
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What games are people going to?
At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
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May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.
I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.
Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.
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I'm going to Wales and Uruguay on Sunday.
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SA v Samoa at VP
Wales v Aus at twickers
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Are Brazil in it?
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twickers
Cringe.
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twickers
Cringe.
When I was going regularly to England games (back in the late 70s & early 80s) it was referred to as 'HQ'. I don't remember people calling it 'Twickers' back then
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May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.
I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.
Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.
I agree on all except Brown, I don't think he's got the brains to be a world class full back. Watson will be world class though, get him the ball in space and he'll destroy any winger in the world but unlike most wingers he's also got the awareness and hands to make things for other people, unfortunately he's probably still a little inexperienced right now, the 2019 world cup will be his tournament.
EDITED because I missed putting 2019 so the last bit was all kinds of weird.
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May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.
I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.
Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.
I agree on all except Brown, I don't think he's got the brains to be a world class full back. Watson will be world class though, get him the ball in space and he'll destroy any winger in the world but unlike most wingers he's also got the awareness and hands to make things for other people, unfortunately he's probably still a little inexperienced right now, the world cup will be his tournament.
I like Mike Brown, but I have to agree, Paul. Oh for Jason Robinson :D
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Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.
Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
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May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.
I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.
Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.
I agree on all except Brown, I don't think he's got the brains to be a world class full back. Watson will be world class though, get him the ball in space and he'll destroy any winger in the world but unlike most wingers he's also got the awareness and hands to make things for other people, unfortunately he's probably still a little inexperienced right now, the 2019 world cup will be his tournament.
EDITED because I missed putting 2019 so the last bit was all kinds of weird.
Yeah good point actually, I forgot about Watson.
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Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.
Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
I don't want Youngs to get a mystery injury, I want that fate to fall on Rob Webber in training so Youngs can be our man off the bench whilst Hartley shows him how a proper hooker throws and scrummages. Youngs is excellent in open play (as you'd expect for a converted centre) but his line out is terrible and in the scrum him (and Webber) have never learned how to hook so the only option is to try to push the opposition back and let the ball work it's way back naturally. I'm not blaming them, the failure of referees to clamp down on feeding into the 2nd row has caused this one.
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Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.
Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
I don't want Youngs to get a mystery injury, I want that fate to fall on Rob Webber in training so Youngs can be our man off the bench whilst Hartley shows him how a proper hooker throws and scrummages. Youngs is excellent in open play (as you'd expect for a converted centre) but his line out is terrible and in the scrum him (and Webber) have never learned how to hook so the only option is to try to push the opposition back and let the ball work it's way back naturally. I'm not blaming them, the failure of referees to clamp down on feeding into the 2nd row has caused this one.
Yeah agreed, I think Youngs is a good impact player so would be good off the bench.
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So, 2 days to go before England v Fiji.
Predictions?
I'll go England by 22.
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I hope would England by a margin, because we need to get the confidence going.
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So, 2 days to go before England v Fiji.
Predictions?
I'll go England by 22.
I'll go with that, I've got a tenner on England with a 21point handicap.
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22-15 England
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Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.
Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley. At least that's what I'm hoping for.
I don't want Youngs to get a mystery injury, I want that fate to fall on Rob Webber in training so Youngs can be our man off the bench whilst Hartley shows him how a proper hooker throws and scrummages. Youngs is excellent in open play (as you'd expect for a converted centre) but his line out is terrible and in the scrum him (and Webber) have never learned how to hook so the only option is to try to push the opposition back and let the ball work it's way back naturally. I'm not blaming them, the failure of referees to clamp down on feeding into the 2nd row has caused this one.
Yeah agreed, I think Youngs is a good impact player so would be good off the bench.
I think that it will be Jamie George that will suffer a worringly serious injury in training to see the return of that nice Dylan Hartley
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What games are people going to?
At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee
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What games are people going to?
At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee
You know you can get NZ Citizenship for expressing that kind of love for Dan Carter. Bagging Richie though is a hanging offence though, especially here in Cantab Country where both Dan & Richie ply their trade.
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What games are people going to?
At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee
You know you can get NZ Citizenship for expressing that kind of love for Dan Carter. Bagging Richie though is a hanging offence though, especially here in Cantab Country where both Dan & Richie ply their trade.
I really don't get the McCaw thing, he's a clear cheat but has spent his entire career getting away with it, it's like there's a massive blindspot for all refs where he's concerned. Paul O'Connell manages to get into that blindspot regularly as well.
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Maybe its some kind of Jedi mind-trick........"I am not the offside flanker that you are looking for"
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What games are people going to?
At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee
You know you can get NZ Citizenship for expressing that kind of love for Dan Carter. Bagging Richie though is a hanging offence though, especially here in Cantab Country where both Dan & Richie ply their trade.
I really don't get the McCaw thing, he's a clear cheat but has spent his entire career getting away with it, it's like there's a massive blindspot for all refs where he's concerned. Paul O'Connell manages to get into that blindspot regularly as well.
I agree. Funny thing is when he plays for the AB's all of NZ get behind him, but when he plays for Canterbury the rest of NZ hate him and complain that he cheats. That tells you all you need to know.
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What games are people going to?
At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
I'm going to England v Wales, which is nice, but that's all I got in the ballot.
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My brother in law works for the RFU as Referees Development Coach and is holed up in The Landmark for the next 8 weeks looking after the officials that are all staying there (he is an ex-premiership referee himself)...............I've not seen a sniff of a ticket for anything - not that bothered tbh, can take or leave the game, but a freeby to the final would have been nice.
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I technically am attending both games @ VP as I am one of the volunteers for the whole tournament, not sure how much rugby I will get chance to see
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See every ref in world rugby should be made to watch that repeatedly (you could make a similar video of Ireland as well and the welsh at times, both teams with a heavy NZ presence in their coaching over the last 10-15 years) the all blacks have, for years, been allowed to cheat at will. The o'driscoll spear tackle by any other nation would've seen 2 red cards and 4-8 week bans each for Collins and Nonu, because they were wearing black they didn't even get a sin-binning and then Collins got a subsequent 1 week ban at the citing commission. It's pathetic and harms the game, thankfully the rules around the breakdown are difficult enough that only a player or big fan will really notice, to most people the ABs just look like they're better than most other teams at getting the ball out quickly.
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Wales resting a lot of key players against Uruguay, I hope that backfires on them. I appreciate it's unlikely to impact the result, but I hope those players aren't match sharp when they play us.
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How do people think Ireland will get on in the tournament?
Just a general query as they seem to do well in the six nations and look to have a relatively easy group.
I say this as someone who knows feck all about Rugby, mind
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How do people think Ireland will get on in the tournament?
Just a general query as they seem to do well in the six nations and look to have a relatively easy group.
I say this as someone who knows feck all about Rugby, mind
As you say a relatively easy group, Ranked 2 in the world? I think not, they'll be found out this tournament.
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I think Ireland will do ok, but I expect their run to end in the quarters or the semis.
I'm already properly nervous about tonight, and it's a game against Fiji, fuck knows what I'll be like when we play Wales and Australia.
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Ireland will get out of their group but I wouldn't bet on it being in first place, which would mean a QF against the all blacks. The Ireland vs France game is going to be the only game outside Pool A that's got real consequences and could genuinely go either way (except maybe Scotland vs Samoa).
Not sure where Jon is getting his ranking from, they're 6th, which is much closer to reality, they were second a couple of years ago but they've been dropping for a while. A good aussie performance in the championship has changed things a little in the official rankings but for me there's an eyelash between England, Australia and SA in 2-4 and then a similarly close battle between Ireland, Wales and France for 5-7. After that the rankings get unreliable because argetina, italy and, to an extent scotland are whipping boys in their regular international tournament so it'as hard to judge them agianst each other or against sides like Tonga, Samoa or Fiji.
All the other games that I wouldn't want to call are amongst the sides that you don't really expect to see qualify, Tonga vs Georgia tomorrow for example could be a superb game, I suspect Tonga will be too strong, but Georgia are a better side than they're given credit for and probably aren't far off questioning why Italy get a 6N place ahead of them.
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just a quickie but what are the reasons were hosting
couple of rugby games?
does it really do the hallowed turf any good
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Have Sky got their greasy paws all over this ? It don't appear to be on BBC tonite ?
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Have Sky got their greasy paws all over this ? It don't appear to be on BBC tonite ?
It's on ITV.
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Have Sky got their greasy paws all over this ? It don't appear to be on BBC tonite ?
It's on ITV.
Nice
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Ireland will get out of their group but I wouldn't bet on it being in first place, which would mean a QF against the all blacks. The Ireland vs France game is going to be the only game outside Pool A that's got real consequences and could genuinely go either way (except maybe Scotland vs Samoa).
Not sure where Jon is getting his ranking from, they're 6th, which is much closer to reality, they were second a couple of years ago but they've been dropping for a while. A good aussie performance in the championship has changed things a little in the official rankings but for me there's an eyelash between England, Australia and SA in 2-4 and then a similarly close battle between Ireland, Wales and France for 5-7. After that the rankings get unreliable because argetina, italy and, to an extent scotland are whipping boys in their regular international tournament so it'as hard to judge them agianst each other or against sides like Tonga, Samoa or Fiji.
All the other games that I wouldn't want to call are amongst the sides that you don't really expect to see qualify, Tonga vs Georgia tomorrow for example could be a superb game, I suspect Tonga will be too strong, but Georgia are a better side than they're given credit for and probably aren't far off questioning why Italy get a 6N place ahead of them.
But aren't Georgia just an updated version of Romania? The Italians have shown some consistency and improvement whereas Georgia are likely to come and go, as did the Romanians. of course it could be argues that the extra revenue from playing 6 Nations rugby would enable them to reinvest in grass roots rugby ensuring a deeper legacy.
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Ireland will get out of their group but I wouldn't bet on it being in first place, which would mean a QF against the all blacks. The Ireland vs France game is going to be the only game outside Pool A that's got real consequences and could genuinely go either way (except maybe Scotland vs Samoa).
Not sure where Jon is getting his ranking from, they're 6th, which is much closer to reality, they were second a couple of years ago but they've been dropping for a while. A good aussie performance in the championship has changed things a little in the official rankings but for me there's an eyelash between England, Australia and SA in 2-4 and then a similarly close battle between Ireland, Wales and France for 5-7. After that the rankings get unreliable because argetina, italy and, to an extent scotland are whipping boys in their regular international tournament so it'as hard to judge them agianst each other or against sides like Tonga, Samoa or Fiji.
All the other games that I wouldn't want to call are amongst the sides that you don't really expect to see qualify, Tonga vs Georgia tomorrow for example could be a superb game, I suspect Tonga will be too strong, but Georgia are a better side than they're given credit for and probably aren't far off questioning why Italy get a 6N place ahead of them.
But aren't Georgia just an updated version of Romania? The Italians have shown some consistency and improvement whereas Georgia are likely to come and go, as did the Romanians. of course it could be argues that the extra revenue from playing 6 Nations rugby would enable them to reinvest in grass roots rugby ensuring a deeper legacy.
Georgia have been 7th in Europe for about 10-12 years so, like Italy before them, they've started to outclass everyone else.
That said I'd pull in Romania as well and go to 2 groups of 4 then have semis and finals to play off for 1st to 8th.
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Decent start, Seeing Fiji try to overpower england with first phase crash ball is odd. We're already kicking the ball too much for my liking.
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Brilliant reading of the game from Tom Wood, that's why he's a world class player.
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Gone a bit scrappy in the last few minutes.
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Very poor performance so far
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We will be fine second half. Open and knock in some points.
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Very poor performance so far
I don't agree, we went silly after the knock on disallowed try, and the kicked penalty was a mistake in that context, but we fully deserve the double figure lead at half time.
However we are making the same mistake we always do which is to kick away first phase possession, Brown has done it 3 times and all 3 have been terrible kicks. I can live with it as a set move for the opposite winger but trying to chip the defence in first phase is braindead. I said yesterday Brown doesn't have the intelligence to be world class, he's done a great job of showing what I meant today.
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Kit is awful
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Very poor performance so far
I don't agree, we went silly after the knock on disallowed try, and the kicked penalty was a mistake in that context, but we fully deserve the double figure lead at half time.
However we are making the same mistake we always do which is to kick away first phase possession, Brown has done it 3 times and all 3 have been terrible kicks. I can live with it as a set move for the opposite winger but trying to chip the defence in first phase is braindead. I said yesterday Brown doesn't have the intelligence to be world class, he's done a great job of showing what I meant today.
I think it has been poor. Numerous handling errors, scrum looking shaky, lineout not great. Thankfully Fiji are extremely ill disciplined so we've got away with it so far.
Also it is extremely annoying having to watch Barritt haul himself around at a level of rugby he should not be playing in
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That shot of the team dressing room: Is it normal that the manager is not leading the team talk? Was it Robshaw or another coach?
Weirdly it was always our captain that shouted our motivational speeches but I assumed that was just because he was good at it rather than a rigby 'thing'.
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Very poor performance so far
I don't agree, we went silly after the knock on disallowed try, and the kicked penalty was a mistake in that context, but we fully deserve the double figure lead at half time.
However we are making the same mistake we always do which is to kick away first phase possession, Brown has done it 3 times and all 3 have been terrible kicks. I can live with it as a set move for the opposite winger but trying to chip the defence in first phase is braindead. I said yesterday Brown doesn't have the intelligence to be world class, he's done a great job of showing what I meant today.
I think it has been poor. Numerous handling errors, scrum looking shaky, lineout not great. Thankfully Fiji are extremely ill disciplined so we've got away with it so far.
Also it is extremely annoying having to watch Barritt haul himself around at a level of rugby he should not be playing in
remember it started to rain right on kick off, so handling errors are no surprise. Scrum has been ok other than Youngs refusing to Hook. Lineout has been fine other than the first one.
I agree about Barritt, he's a terrible player who shouldn't be anywhere near this side, he's a decent defender but he can't pass, doesn't run good crash ball and has a bad habit of giving away penalties when he tries to force the game.
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We really do need the full 5 points from this game.
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Oh for fuck sake. Why would Wood do that? Fucking braindead
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They really do need to do something about the amount of time lost at scrums.
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Oh for fuck sake. Why would Wood do that? Fucking braindead
To be fair to him you don't get called up for that until a month ago, and given we were already playing advantage it was a poor decision to reverse it.
I wish Tom Youngs would, once, try to hook the fucking ball.
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Fiji have missed quite a few kicks. Thankfully
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Very worrying that for spells in this game, Fiji have looked the better team. We'll need a drastic improvement even to just beat Wales
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I'm the first to admit I don't know much about Rugby,
But I can tell one thing, this England team is not winning the World Cup
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Oh look we bring on loads of sarries players and suddenly we're playing the same shit that Sarries do.
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I'm the first to admit I don't know much about Rugby,
But I can tell one thing, this England team is not winning the World Cup
We'll do well to get out of the group on this evidence
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I'm the first to admit I don't know much about Rugby,
But I can tell one thing, this England team is not winning the World Cup
We'll do well to get out of the group on this evidence
That was true the moment Burrell, Cipriani and Kvesic were sent home, left us with no impact at inside centre, no spark of brilliance at 10 or 15 and no one willing to get in the thick of it and be a bastard on the floor.
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Some of those Fiji players are absolutely enormous
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Some of those Fiji players are absolutely enormous
which is why we're looking good now, they're fucked.
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Some of those Fiji players are absolutely enormous
which is why we're looking good now, they're fucked.
We have picked it up a bit late on
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Far too many turnovers and handling errors but that last gasp try will ultimately help in the pool placings.
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Well, that was uninspiring. Hopefully it was just first night nerves, because we were flattered by the scoreline, and we'll struggle to beat Wales or Australia with that level of performance.
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good first 20, shit 45 in the middle and then fitness got us over the line. Loads of work to do, injuries to Barritt and a hooker in training would be a blessing but it's 5 points against a decent side in the opening game which is often a tricky one for the hosts so I guess job done.
We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.
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Far too many turnovers and handling errors but that last gasp try will ultimately help in the pool placings.
I'm not fussed about the handling errors, the light rain meant it looked like a good pitch but the ball was a bar of soap. The turnovers is a massive problem (both the number we concede and the lack of 'wins'), the 2 key players at the breakdown at 7 and your enforcer in the centres. Whichever of the 2 is nearest should be closing the ball off by getting low and over the top of it as quickly as possible, neither Robshaw or Barritt is able to do that job so we give teams a chance far too often and we don't legally slow their play. Not only does itlose it ball and stop us winning ball back but it's also at the heart of our indiscipline around halfway, if there's any gaps our only option is to try to kill the ball, refs know it so they watch for it and punish us for everything which puts us on the backfoot as soon as teams start attacking us.
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Flat as a pancake .
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We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.
Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot. And Brian Ashton. And Johnno.
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Far too many turnovers and handling errors but that last gasp try will ultimately help in the pool placings.
I'm not fussed about the handling errors, the light rain meant it looked like a good pitch but the ball was a bar of soap. The turnovers is a massive problem (both the number we concede and the lack of 'wins'), the 2 key players at the breakdown at 7 and your enforcer in the centres. Whichever of the 2 is nearest should be closing the ball off by getting low and over the top of it as quickly as possible, neither Robshaw or Barritt is able to do that job so we give teams a chance far too often and we don't legally slow their play. Not only does itlose it ball and stop us winning ball back but it's also at the heart of our indiscipline around halfway, if there's any gaps our only option is to try to kill the ball, refs know it so they watch for it and punish us for everything which puts us on the backfoot as soon as teams start attacking us.
You're right about refs waiting for us to kill the ball and England concede far too many penalties in crucial areas. The number of scrums lost was also a bit worrying. I think though that Fiji will cause Wales, and maybe Australia, a few problems with the size and pace of some of their backs.
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The breakdown was a mess. If Fiji can turn us over like that, Wales and the Aussies will have a field day.
Must do better.
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I just don't get rugby. Bores the shit out of me.
For all the hype...England looked a bit crap.
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Its very easy to be critical but it was just the first game. It takes time to build into a tournament and with one or two notable exceptions the best teams aren't the ones that get into their stride in the first game or two but build their momentum. I think the scrum is definitely an area of concern though and I agree a hooker seems to be an urgent requirement. Nice to see the lineout functioning better but they really did seem to get a free pass in this one.
But I think we are a bit remiss in not giving the Fijians a bit more credit. They were excellent in defence and disrupted at the breakdown more than once. As paul e said a page or 2 back only those that know the game can truly spot the infringements and I must admit I was calling penalties left right and centre but nothing was mentioned so guess they must have done their job excellently well. Also, this was their World Cup Final. At Twickenham, Friday night, bodies not aching battered or bruised, and no pressure. They threw everything at it and it was always going to be tough. they probably won't have the same intensity against the Welsh or Australia but the important thing is that we walked away with 5 points.
A nod also in teh direction of Sam Burgess. the South Sea Islanders tend to play a rugby league type of game. Accept the tackle but always look for the hand off. Conservative rugby from the fitter Union players of the North is usually enough to beat them but Sam Burgess was an excellent antidote. Excellent carrying, line running, and offloading.
All in all job done.
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We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.
Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot. And Brian Ashton. And Johnno.
The one in bold was the mistake. We should have given him the 4years from 07 to 11 to build a solid base around the younger players, instead we had Johnno trying to learn how to be a coach at the highest level and being found out it was always a bizarre appointment. We've made largely the same mistake with Lancaster, a couple of years at Leeds and a year running the Saxons is nothing like enough experience to be a national team head coach. He got the job temporarily because when they booted Johnno the season had started and they needed someone for the 6N so rather than upset a club side they used the saxons coach. How foten does a caretaker turn out to be a good appointment when they're made permanent in any sport?
The biggest problem England have though is that we've got a nice guy as the coach and another nice guy as the captain so as a team we're too nice, we're loyal to players who don't really deserve it, we're harshly critical of players who ruffle feathers and we doi a fucking terrible job of sticking up for ourselves. I want a nasty bastard or 2 in squad, you really need them in rugby, it's why player like BOD and McCaw are so good, they have skills but they also don't take shit and they're willing to get dirty.
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Pretty poor and scrappy, but I'm hoping that's down the occasion. One defensive lapse aside Burgess was brilliant when he came on. He gave us impetus moving forward along with Billy V. I thought Farrell did well as well. We'll obviously have to be a lot better, but Australia and particularly Wales won't enjoy playing Fiji.
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Burgess has put serious questions on Barritt's place.
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Oh look we bring on loads of sarries players and suddenly we're playing the same shit that Sarries do.
To be honest I thought they all had a positive impact on the game.
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The main things to improve upon are intensity, control of the breakdown and discipline. You can't give away 11 turnovers and penalties.
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Oh look we bring on loads of sarries players and suddenly we're playing the same shit that Sarries do.
To be honest I thought they all had a positive impact on the game.
When I wrote that we were looking pretty cynical. Burgess came on just after and gave us some drive in midfield which got launchbury and Billy v to start driving on from the pack which changed the game. It was 9, 10 and 12 from a side that uses backs sparingly that frustrated me.
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We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.
Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot. And Brian Ashton. And Johnno.
The one in bold was the mistake. We should have given him the 4years from 07 to 11 to build a solid base around the younger players, instead we had Johnno trying to learn how to be a coach at the highest level and being found out it was always a bizarre appointment. We've made largely the same mistake with Lancaster, a couple of years at Leeds and a year running the Saxons is nothing like enough experience to be a national team head coach. He got the job temporarily because when they booted Johnno the season had started and they needed someone for the 6N so rather than upset a club side they used the saxons coach. How foten does a caretaker turn out to be a good appointment when they're made permanent in any sport?
The biggest problem England have though is that we've got a nice guy as the coach and another nice guy as the captain so as a team we're too nice, we're loyal to players who don't really deserve it, we're harshly critical of players who ruffle feathers and we doi a fucking terrible job of sticking up for ourselves. I want a nasty bastard or 2 in squad, you really need them in rugby, it's why player like BOD and McCaw are so good, they have skills but they also don't take shit and they're willing to get dirty.
Was Brian Ashton the one who, to use a cliche, "lost the dressing" room during the World Cup in France? Where the players ignored his tactics and chose to play stick it up yer jumper rugby for the rest of the tournament? My memory is a bit hazy.
Anyway, what irks me about all of them is that occasionally we get performances that look like we're finally on the right track, like Cardiff in this year's 6N, but then things just end up going sour again. Regression to the mean? Maybe England just produces limited players - perhaps not limited in terms of raw talent, but certainly lacking smarts and "footballing brains".
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Yeah I understand that. Burgess and Billy had a massive impact which was really encouraging and that's the first time I've seen Burgess offer something as an attacking centre. I actually thought Farrell did well and his offload to brown was outstanding.
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We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.
Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot. And Brian Ashton. And Johnno.
The one in bold was the mistake. We should have given him the 4years from 07 to 11 to build a solid base around the younger players, instead we had Johnno trying to learn how to be a coach at the highest level and being found out it was always a bizarre appointment. We've made largely the same mistake with Lancaster, a couple of years at Leeds and a year running the Saxons is nothing like enough experience to be a national team head coach. He got the job temporarily because when they booted Johnno the season had started and they needed someone for the 6N so rather than upset a club side they used the saxons coach. How foten does a caretaker turn out to be a good appointment when they're made permanent in any sport?
The biggest problem England have though is that we've got a nice guy as the coach and another nice guy as the captain so as a team we're too nice, we're loyal to players who don't really deserve it, we're harshly critical of players who ruffle feathers and we doi a fucking terrible job of sticking up for ourselves. I want a nasty bastard or 2 in squad, you really need them in rugby, it's why player like BOD and McCaw are so good, they have skills but they also don't take shit and they're willing to get dirty.
Was Brian Ashton the one who, to use a cliche, "lost the dressing" room during the World Cup in France? Where the players ignored his tactics and chose to play stick it up yer jumper rugby for the rest of the tournament? My memory is a bit hazy.
Anyway, what irks me about all of them is that occasionally we get performances that look like we're finally on the right track, like Cardiff in this year's 6N, but then things just end up going sour again. Regression to the mean? Maybe England just produces limited players - perhaps not limited in terms of raw talent, but certainly lacking smarts and "footballing brains".
Yeah, all the older players who were having a last tournament before they retired didn't want to play his way. The issue is he set up the academy system that all the current players came through under (whilst working with Woodward) and was perfectly suited to the massive rebuild job that was needed after 2007. By dumping him and bringing in Johnno they lost that connection to the 19-22 year olds and we ended up picking some absolute shite (Jaime fucking Noon) over the next 4 years and turning up at the world cup totally unprepared.
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Georgia vs Tonga is just as close as I expected, should have been 10-10 at half time but for an incredibly harsh disallowed try for Tonga.
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I didn't realise Fiji are ranked 9th in the world these days. They're not the push overs at 15 a side these days.
Still, 11 turnovers is pretty unacceptable.
I'm putting this one down to opening the World Cup nerves.
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Georgia vs Tonga is just as close as I expected, should have been 10-10 at half time but for an incredibly harsh disallowed try for Tonga.
I was hoping to watch this whilst I'm sat in the car park waiting for the Villa game.
However ITVPlayer isn't showing the game
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Yes it is. Click on ITV then click Watch Live.
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Well done Georgia!
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Really enjoyed that, so good to see the improvement in Georgia, as I said they're closing the gap on Italy massively.
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Japan are having a right good go at SA unlucky to be going in 2 behind.
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Japan look a pretty handy side.
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Come on Japan!
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This is awesome!
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YEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!
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Amazing. The reaction of the Georgian and Japanese players alone has already made this tournament a great spectacle.
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Thank you Japan for making my day and making forget about the shite Villa served up. Bravo!!!!
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Fantastic stuff. Real guts there.
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Best upset ever in rugby history, and 100% deserved, that pool is interesting now and means finishing 1st in our pool might not be such a huge advantage as it looked.
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What a game from minute 1. Japan were immense.
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Seriously down in the dumps when I got home after our game but watching that Japanese performance was a massive lift. Really, really special stuff.
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Seriously down in the dumps when I got home after our game but watching that Japanese performance was a massive lift. Really, really special stuff.
Absolutely, and I'm not even much of a rugby fan!
I would be if it was always that exciting!
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Seriously down in the dumps when I got home after our game but watching that Japanese performance was a massive lift. Really, really special stuff.
Absolutely, and I'm not even much of a rugby fan!
I would be if it was always that exciting!
Personally I find that rugby rarely falls to the depths that football can, maybe because there is always the physically to enjoy. Equally these sort of upsets in rugby seem much less common so the sort rarely reaches the heights that football can.
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Watched the last ten minutes of Japan v SA when I got home. Incredible victory
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And after that epic encounter, the rugby is pushed aside to ITV4 so that ITV can show some crappy talent show
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And after that epic encounter, the rugby is pushed aside to ITV4 so that ITV can show some crappy talent show
I bet there's plenty of schedulers who are thinking that right now, if ever you needed an advert for the world cup it was one of the favourites getting beaten in the opening weekend to a rank outsider. With Georgis being rated well below Tonga that's 2 upset out of 4 so far, and Fiji had a good go at us as well, it's briliant for the tournament.
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There will be a fellow Forester on the pitch at Villa Park next weekend. Wayne Barnes is the ref for the SA v Samoa game
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After sitting through the dirge of this afternoon at Villa Park seeing the end of SA v Japan made me feel a lot better about being a sports fan.
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Off to Cardiff now. Come on Uruguay!
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And after that epic encounter, the rugby is pushed aside to ITV4 so that ITV can show some crappy talent show
I bet there's plenty of schedulers who are thinking that right now, if ever you needed an advert for the world cup it was one of the favourites getting beaten in the opening weekend to a rank outsider. With Georgis being rated well below Tonga that's 2 upset out of 4 so far, and Fiji had a good go at us as well, it's briliant for the tournament.
But it needs to me maintained. Obviously it is still massively odds on that all of the big boys get through to the last 8 but the tournament, and Rugby Union as a world game can do without the kind of tonkings previously reserved for the likes of Japan.
As for Japan I couldn't get over to the missus just how big a surprise result it was and couldn't equate it properly to football. I caught the last 25 minutes on ITV+1 and saw Japan pull level at 22-22 before South Africa scored a try. I turned over at that point because I didn't want to see SA win. The 6 year-old was messing around with his dinner in a non-eating tip so I turned which ever cartoon channel he was watching (yeah, save the parental advice...)back to the rugby. The last 10-15 minutes or so saw Chez Winters engrossed in it. The last 5 minutes when Japan decided to go for it had us glued to the screen and as the fella went over in the corner the missus who cannot stand sport of any description was jumping up and down, the 6 year-old was running around, I gave it the fist pump, and the two-year-old took advantage of the mayhem to jump up and down thinking it was a precursor to fighting monsters (his current favourite game).
All in all from a depressed state of affairs due to fucking Villa RWC 2015 gave us a bizarre but brilliant family moment. I hope the rest of ther World Cup can live up to it. A passing nod to Georgia v Tonga at this point which seemed like a decent game.
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It was absolutely outstanding. The whole pub seemed to turn Japanese in that last 10 minutes. The roar when they scored the last try was probably as big as it would be if England actually won the thing
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NZ v Argentina really entertaining so far. It's been a cracking WC so far
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2 yellow cards for NZ so far, including one for cheating bastard Richie McCaw.
Hopefully this is a sign that referees won't let them get away with murder like they usually do
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Has that gobshite cheat finally been sussed out?
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Has that gobshite cheat finally been sussed out?
I hope so. He's a great player, but has gotten away with plenty during his career. Today's one was so cynical
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Has that gobshite cheat finally been sussed out?
Only if the ref secretly logs on to here.
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2 yellow cards for NZ so far, including one for cheating bastard Richie McCaw.
Hopefully this is a sign that referees won't let them get away with murder like they usually do
The Harlem Globetrotters won't like that. Officials and opponents alike are supposed to stand aside and marvel and applaud as the guardians of world rugby march on to glory.
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Even with 2 yellows you can still count the breakdown infringements in every play, it's institutionalised cheating that's completely inseparable from the good elements of their game. I'd love to see the refs go all out in pinging them but we'd see games with 11 or 12 players on one side if they did.
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There you go, NZ get into the lead with a try that no one questions even though McCaw is on the wrong side right in the path of the defender who would've filled the gap that Smith ran through, pathetic from the ref and the commentators.
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Even with 2 yellows you can still count the breakdown infringements in every play, it's institutionalised cheating that's completely inseparable from the good elements of their game. I'd love to see the refs go all out in pinging them but we'd see games with 11 or 12 players on one side if they did.
Not just the breakdown - they actually got pinged for a forward pass this match. I thought the ABs has special dispensation to pass the ball forwards?
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I find myself getting really angry watching this, take away the cheating and I genuinely don't think they're all that. If you're allowed to come in from the side stand in the way of cover defenders it's easy to get quick ball and find gaps.
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Haven't NZ got a few nice, sedate games against proper nations like Tonga, Georgia, and Namibia before they get to the business end of the tournament?
Well played, NZ, well played.
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Wales might be in a spot of bother with their injuries at prop.
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Wales might be in a spot of bother with their injuries at prop.
Harsh as it sounds I hope so, Saturday definitely looks like a good day to play them.
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Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?
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I had a great weekend, went to Twickenham Friday, Brighton Saturday and Wembley yesterday.
The worst atmosphere and experience was Wembley yetserday - huge crowd, the Argies treid to get the atmosphere going but NZ really are boring tema, boring crowd. the Man U of rugby as well, so many glory hunter in black. And then the obligatory hour to get out of the ground and to the tube.
Friday was good, Twickenham was really bouncing which you can't say very often. They did a good job of warming the crowd up before they started broadcasting the opening ceremony and depsite England stuttering somewhat, the crowd stayed buoyant throughout. We had French singing La Marseillaise, Argies singing and bouncing and everyone not English supporting Fiji, which is how it should be!!
Saturday though, what a day. Beers on the beach, shuttlke to the ground and then that performance from Japan, wow. I reckon we celebrated the last try as much as if England had won the WC.
the best thing about the whole weekend though has been the overall atmosphere - chatting to overseas visitors, hugging every Japanese person in sight, debating the games and predictions with Aussies, Kiwis, Welsh, Irish all while drinking an awful lot of beer. No trouble, everyone waiting patiently in queues where necessary and just an all round good time. i do wish Football could be like that.
I'm at VP Sunday and am interested to see what the atmosphere is like, because it's not really a hotbed area for rugby is it!
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Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?
I don't think that's allowed. They can call up replacements but we'll be looking at 4th or 5th choice props on the bench and the likes of Marler and Cole will just dismantle them.
Duncan - your experience is why I love rugby, even with huge rivals it's always friendly. the fans are just so much better behaved than in football.
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Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?
I don't think that's allowed. They can call up replacements but we'll be looking at 4th or 5th choice props on the bench and the likes of Marler and Cole will just dismantle them.
Duncan - your experience is why I love rugby, even with huge rivals it's always friendly. the fans are just so much better behaved than in football.
I'm sure it's not, I was just fooling.
Great story I heard coming out of Brighton Saturday, at the railway station the SA fans formed a guard of honour for the Japan fans and allowed them all to board trains before them. How about that.
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The whole pub seemed to turn Japanese in that last 10 minutes.
Isn't that a euphemism for wanking?
Interesting choice of pub!
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The whole pub seemed to turn Japanese in that last 10 minutes.
Isn't that a euphemism for wanking?
Interesting choice of pub!
Ha ha, we were all singin it in the stands at the end, and I explained to my 15 yr old lad the percieved meaning of the song and he thought it was hilarious!
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Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?
I don't think that's allowed. They can call up replacements but we'll be looking at 4th or 5th choice props on the bench and the likes of Marler and Cole will just dismantle them.
Duncan - your experience is why I love rugby, even with huge rivals it's always friendly. the fans are just so much better behaved than in football.
I'm sure it's not, I was just fooling.
Great story I heard coming out of Brighton Saturday, at the railway station the SA fans formed a guard of honour for the Japan fans and allowed them all to board trains before them. How about that.
They were and there was lots of hugging going on. It was just incredible really.
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Really enjoyed going to the Millenium yesterday and then going to the fan park for the NZ game. Great atmosphere all round.
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Anyone been to the fan park at Millenium Point?
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Anyone been to the fan park at Millenium Point?
Yeah we went yesterday, was ok but a bit quiet when we were there (watched the first half of the wales game). Was ok though and seemed a decent atmosphere given it was quiet and it wasn't the nicest of days.
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Japan v the Sweaties has suddenly become very interesting after the weekend result.
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Japan v the Sweaties has suddenly become very interesting after the weekend result.
That's the problem with the scheduling. The perceived "minnows" have only a few days rest between matches rather than a full week off.
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Scotland are well rested, they haven't played any rugby for years.
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If JJ is out that would be a real blow. If he is I hope they bring in Slade rather than going for Barritt and Farrell.
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Japan v the Sweaties has suddenly become very interesting after the weekend result.
Shame that this is an afternoon KO, meaning that I can't watch live.
I'm planning on timing my drive home tomorrow so that I hit the Glawster northern bypass just before the end of the game.
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Record it or watch on +1?
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BBC commentators are speculating that Lancaster is dropping Ford completely and playing Farrell, Burgess and Barritt.
That's pretty much Paul_e's dream team I think.
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If that's true it's ridiculous. Farrell had a good impact, but to drop Ford after one game is ridiculously harsh. Also starting Burgess is a massive gamble.
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It also suggests a shift in our game plan. I don't think trying to front up to Wales physically is a particularly good idea, since that's essentially what their game plan is all about.
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Yep, this is him being scared of Wales rather than trying to play our own game. We couldn't have sent a clearer signal that we're playing for penalties. As I've said before the sooner Lancaster leaves the better, even if this works and we win comfortably I don't want to see a national team with the players and resources to play an expansive game resort to 2 crash centres and a boot on a stick. May and Watson might as well be dropped and replaced by 2 defensive wingers because they're going to get nothing but shit possession where they stand no chance of doing any damage. We need to get rid of Farrell senior as well, he's doing everything he can to turn our backs into a league side and is being allowed to do it. On top of that once he fucks off there's a chance that his son won't be an automatic selection in the squad.
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Farrell, Barritt, Burgess at 10, 12, 13 is like going back to the dark days of Andy Goode, Jamie Noon & Stuart Abbott - kick kick bang bang. So predictable, so easy to defend. Are we *that* scared of Jamie Roberts ?
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Ah, I see paul_e beat me to it !
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It's pathetic, that's the midfield line up I'd expect to see from someone like Georgia who are just trying to ruffle a few feathers and sneak a win or 2 in the group, not from a side that genuinely has a hope of winning the tournament.
As I said earlier in the thread, I'd take us going out in the QF now, not embarrassing but bad enough to see the coaches and manager off. I hate the fact that we're in the middle of a rugby world cup in England and I'm enjoying it more as a neutral than I am as an England fan.
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My biggest problem isn't around the style of play, although that is an issue. It's that it completely flies in the face of what has been preached for the last few years about consistency. Ford didn't have the best game on Friday, but it was far from awful. He doesn't deserve to be dropped at all.
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My biggest problem isn't around the style of play, although that is an issue. It's that it completely flies in the face of what has been preached for the last few years about consistency. Ford didn't have the best game on Friday, but it was far from awful. He doesn't deserve to be dropped at all.
Consistency of selection only applies if you're one his favourites, Wood, Lawes and Launchbury have all been given similar treatment.
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I do think Lancaster has panicked and tried to front up to Wales rather than out play them. Let's hope it's not a fatal mistake.
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So Ford has been dropped for Farrell, let's hope we don't live to regret that. Billy V coming in is the right decision, but we don't even have Slade on the bench. Why bother including Slade in the squad if there's absolutely no chance of him being involved in any role of importance.
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Yay, Farrell, Burgess and Barritt with Goode as cover for the back 5 on the bench, the guy is a fucking clown.
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I want us to win the World Cup, but it seems like decisions are being made that will make that extremely unlikely. I just don't understand why we're trying to match Wales at their own game plan. You wouldn't do that against the All Blacks would you? We showed in Cardiff earlier this year the way to beat them is to play around them. That's why Australia beat them everytime. If we had a back line with Ford and Slade in we'd have a much better chance. We might still win on Saturday, but we're making it needlessly difficult for ourselves.
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I was going to comment but you have all summed up my thoughts nicely.
Attritional, no flair rugby.
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I don't necessarily have a problem with Burgess playing, as I don't think he's a particularly negative pick. He showed good quality last week and made plenty of yards. It's just having him and Barritt that I don't like.
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The shame is that Burgess in a year or 2 could do everything that Barritt offers and more, allowing him to be paired with a more creative centre.
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Well let's hope this experience proves useful to him then.
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if this RWC is going to produce a 100 pointer, tonight's the night
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You think Namibia will score that many?
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Yay, Farrell, Burgess and Barritt with Goode as cover for the back 5 on the bench, the guy is a fucking clown.
I think with the talent that is within the English game, anything less than reaching the final should mean a p45 for Mr Lancaster.
With the players left out of the squad originally, and with these changes I just can't see that happening.
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Yay, Farrell, Burgess and Barritt with Goode as cover for the back 5 on the bench, the guy is a fucking clown.
I think with the talent that is within the English game, anything less than reaching the final should mean a p45 for Mr Lancaster.
With the players left out of the squad originally, and with these changes I just can't see that happening.
Shame it will come too late for us to see the trophy lifted on home soil.
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To be honest if we win the World Cup I'll forgive for these decisions.
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On the basis of what I've seen so far, still can't see anyone stopping Scotland.
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I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.
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I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.
I hope you're right, because it's a very important game to win.
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The selection is made now and I hope that Farrell, Burgess and Barritt have absolutely storming games and we batter Wales.
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What's been kind of missed in the big selection debate is that England's forwards have to turn up for all this game. No more wilting in the scrum.
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I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.
Getting the ball to those fast wings is the problem. Big strong centres are great but they have to have good hands, Burgess is massively inexperienced and Barritt is a terrible passer so I can't see us working the ball wide with pace and accuracy to exploit gaps. If we do score tries it's going to be forward push-overs or cross-field kicks and, in my opinion, Farrell's kicking from hand isn't accurate enough for that, Ford is far better at those.
As I've said he's picked a team to win penalties and kick points and given himself no alternative if it doesn't work, Slade on the bench ahead of Goode would've at least given the option to have a creative centre, or Nowell gives you the option to move Watson into there (he hasn't played centre much at any level but he has the defence and passing to be an option). I just can't work out what Goode brings that isn't covered by Farrell and Ford, it's a pathetic selection of a player who has done nothing to deserve his place in the squad.
To put this in context I'd liken playing Watson and May outside that midfield to Villa last season under Lambert, it's boring as fuck and you're making a very potent attacking threat look shit by giving it scraps to work with.
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I hope the referee takes a good look at Gethin Jenkins from the start, because he never ever binds straight and bores more than a Lambert team!!!
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I'm already nervous!
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One thing we really need is for the players to keep cool heads tonight, especially Farrell. He needs to orchestrate the game.
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I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.
Getting the ball to those fast wings is the problem. Big strong centres are great but they have to have good hands, Burgess is massively inexperienced and Barritt is a terrible passer so I can't see us working the ball wide with pace and accuracy to exploit gaps. If we do score tries it's going to be forward push-overs or cross-field kicks and, in my opinion, Farrell's kicking from hand isn't accurate enough for that, Ford is far better at those.
As I've said he's picked a team to win penalties and kick points and given himself no alternative if it doesn't work, Slade on the bench ahead of Goode would've at least given the option to have a creative centre, or Nowell gives you the option to move Watson into there (he hasn't played centre much at any level but he has the defence and passing to be an option). I just can't work out what Goode brings that isn't covered by Farrell and Ford, it's a pathetic selection of a player who has done nothing to deserve his place in the squad.
To put this in context I'd liken playing Watson and May outside that midfield to Villa last season under Lambert, it's boring as fuck and you're making a very potent attacking threat look shit by giving it scraps to work with.
Burgess is a big match player. A broken cheek bone in the first minute Grand Final before 80,000 Aussie rugby league fans he goes on to win the man of the match. His performances for Bath may not be brilliant but hes learning slightly different tactical considerations. The game he started for England, it seemed to me that he was wary of the off side law but performed pretty well. He's there to keep Roberts in check. Its a decision that has its risks but less than the Ford/Farrell switch.
Farrell has demonstrated time and again that he lets the occasion get to him and bubbles over, we need calm heads to make the decisions at important times. Not convinced Farrell is that man. Hope to be proved wrong.
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I'm hoping today is the day Burgess arrives as a union player.
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I think Burgess will be a fantastic centre in a year or 2 but his running lines and timing is still tuned to league. The main risk though is to pick 2 crash centres which makes us predictable, if they don't punch holes and offload regularly we'll be in trouble. I'd trust Burrell to do that but Barritt doesn't have the skill and Burgess doesn't look ready.
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This is a bigger game for the Welsh. We sometimes do Australia, but they never do. A win today is their best chance to qualify.
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Loads of South Africa fans around town earlier. The team were staying at the Hyatt. With the SA fans, and the Birmingham Weekender on, it was a mare getting around town.
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Anyone outside b6 selling H&V today
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I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".
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Idiots. That was a game they should have won with something to spare.
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Cheerio Lancaster, you won't be missed, every pressure match since you took over you gone defensive and we've bottled it. It's now going to cost us a chance to win a home world cup.
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To not consider the armitage brothers was a big mistake
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What a fantastic example of spirit and triumph over adversity, well done Wales.
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Great game, well done Wales.
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I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".
Same here. Glad I am not the only one.
I went to Warwick University in the mid 70's, and the "Warwick Wankers" as the rugger buggers liked to be known, were ****s to a man.
In the late 70's I used to go the Reddings to watch Moseley, and this restored my faith in the game somewhat, but that was blown away many years ago. Don't ask.
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I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".
Same here. Glad I am not the only one.
I went to Warwick University in the mid 70's, and the "Warwick Wankers" as the rugger buggers liked to be known, were ****s to a man.
In the late 70's I used to go the Reddings to watch Moseley, and this restored my faith in the game somewhat, but that was blown away many years ago. Don't ask.
Good job believing the stereotype. In reality I know plenty of rugby players and fans who are working class, the handful of public school people I've worked with over the last few years are all Arsenal fans and have no interest in rugby.
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As an Englishman I wanted England to win. Gutted.
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Woeful last 20 mins and indiscipline cost us the game. Terrible.
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Bye bye Lancaster, too many favourites, no invention and no ideas.
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I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".
Did you also know that all true Brummies support Blues and Villa fans are all middle class twats that come from Worcestershire?
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Bye bye Lancaster, too many favourites, no invention and no ideas.
HA HA, I can't get away with people wanting someone sacked, even on a rugby thread.
Good game though that, reckon you lot lost it mentally...thought we would roll over seeing all our injured going off.
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The England rugby chant is one of the most embarrassing songs sang at sporting events. So fucking lame.
Only Keep Right On and "Let's go Andy, let's go! (Clap! Clap!)", Rival it.
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Bye bye Lancaster, too many favourites, no invention and no ideas.
HA HA, I can't get away with people wanting someone sacked, even on a rugby thread.
Good game though that, reckon you lot lost it mentally...thought we would roll over seeing all our injured going off.
It was more the negativity earlier in the game, 2-3 times we got a penalty within 40 yards of the posts with the ball still in hand and we just gave it up so we could get the shot at goal rather than trying something to make the gap wider. If you leave a small gap and make it clear that your plan is to hold what you've got it just encourages teams to throw everything at you, Leicester did it to Villa and Wales have just done it to England.
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To lose at home to a very mediocre Wales team says a lot about Lancaster. His position is now untenable, regardless of what happens during the rest of this World Cup.
The talent there is in the English game, and he produces that fucking piece of garbage anti rugby? Fucking disgraceful
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Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
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England's biggest isn't style of play it's indiscipline. If you concede 10+ penalites every game you're going to lost most of them.
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Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
Wouldn't surprise me to see Wales lose to Fiji to be honest.
And changes or non changes, that game was in the bag. England only have themselves to blame.
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Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
Well no it wasn't, that's the problem. The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts. The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes. Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game. I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect. Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.
As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7. Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton. Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.
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Aussies are celebrating. One because England lost and two because they think it's a good result for them. Not sure how, if everything goes to form (cough) it'll just mean a winner takes all game at Twickenham surely where England have a pretty good recent record against them.
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Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
Well no it wasn't, that's the problem. The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts. The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes. Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game. I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect. Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.
As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7. Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton. Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.
Well it kind of was because the starting 15 had pretty much complete control of the game. I agree the bench wasn't right and Slade should have been there instead of Goode. But his big selection calls, Farrell and Burgess, both played pretty well. The Armitage factor is slightly unfair due to the rule the the RFU has in place. Ultimately Armitage knew by playing abroad he effectively makes himself unselectable. He could have done something about that, but he didn't.
Anyway it's by the by now, Lancaster has one game to save his England career. The way the group pans out, if we beat Australia we're probably through and if we don't we're out. So it's quite simple now. I'd be half tempted to go with a Burgess and Joseph partnership in that game, if JJ is fit.
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I thought England always looked fairly comfortable, but when you keep giving penalties away in kicking distance you always leave yourselves open to a sucker punch. The substitutions seemed to hand it to the Welsh.
Positive spin on this is that Wales wont beat Australia where as I think we could.
But for me, with the Welsh injuries mounting beating Fiji is not a forgone conclusion. If, and it's a massive IF, Fiji turn up they could very well turn them over.
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Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
Well no it wasn't, that's the problem. The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts. The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes. Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game. I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect. Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.
As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7. Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton. Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.
Well it kind of was because the starting 15 had pretty much complete control of the game. I agree the bench wasn't right and Slade should have been there instead of Goode. But his big selection calls, Farrell and Burgess, both played pretty well. The Armitage factor is slightly unfair due to the rule the the RFU has in place. Ultimately Armitage knew by playing abroad he effectively makes himself unselectable. He could have done something about that, but he didn't.
Anyway it's by the by now, Lancaster has one game to save his England career. The way the group pans out, if we beat Australia we're probably through and if we don't we're out. So it's quite simple now. I'd be half tempted to go with a Burgess and Joseph partnership in that game, if JJ is fit.
But as i said, that control came from the pack not from the backs. In open play Farrell was poor but no one will talk about because he kicked all his chances and made a couple of decent tackles. Barritt was anonymous and the wings largely worked off scraps, even the try we scored we fucked up the move and Wales left a massive blind side when we were recycling.
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VP looking resplendent, lovely to see!
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Any reason why the Villa Park crowds were 39,526/39,605 rather than 42,500?
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It was a problem with the execution, leading to us not putting them away when on top. Felt like I'd been mugged on the train back.
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Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
Well no it wasn't, that's the problem. The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts. The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes. Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game. I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect. Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.
As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7. Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton. Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.
Well it kind of was because the starting 15 had pretty much complete control of the game. I agree the bench wasn't right and Slade should have been there instead of Goode. But his big selection calls, Farrell and Burgess, both played pretty well. The Armitage factor is slightly unfair due to the rule the the RFU has in place. Ultimately Armitage knew by playing abroad he effectively makes himself unselectable. He could have done something about that, but he didn't.
Anyway it's by the by now, Lancaster has one game to save his England career. The way the group pans out, if we beat Australia we're probably through and if we don't we're out. So it's quite simple now. I'd be half tempted to go with a Burgess and Joseph partnership in that game, if JJ is fit.
But as i said, that control came from the pack not from the backs. In open play Farrell was poor but no one will talk about because he kicked all his chances and made a couple of decent tackles. Barritt was anonymous and the wings largely worked off scraps, even the try we scored we fucked up the move and Wales left a massive blind side when we were recycling.
We did fuck up the try, but that had nothing to do with Farrell, Burgess and Barritt they worked it very well before Watson's pass.
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I still think there's a good chance we'll go through, because I can see us nicking the game on Saturday and I think ironically Wales will pay the price for that victory.
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Incidentally what do you reckon on chances of Woodward coming back to coach us? The RFU has changed since he was last in charge and he might relish another crack at it with a younger squad with great potential.
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Incidentally what do you reckon on chances of Woodward coming back to coach us? The RFU has changed since he was last in charge and he might relish another crack at it with a younger squad with great potential.
No chance at all in my view, which is a shame as I'm convinced he changed the face of modern coaching.
My problem with Lancaster is that he seems to have planned, timed substitutions which are made no matter how well the incumbents are playing. Rugby thrives on momentum and he keeps destroying it for "impact substitutions" which aren't always needed
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We probably needed to beat Australia to win the group before yesterday, and nothing has really changed.
The discipline, lack of turnovers at the breakdown is something that bothers me, and I think it is a mistake to not pick our best players. All the other nations will pick players playing overseas, and not sure it seems to be hampering them. Putting Armitage into the back row would in my opinion improve our team significantly. Too late now though.....
Oh yeah, and those clock watching subs are also odd, there is no pragmatism.
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It was a problem with the execution, leading to us not putting them away when on top. Felt like I'd been mugged on the train back.
at least 100% correct, we should've been 15-20 points ahead on the hour, we'd dominated the scrum, had great success from the lineout and had loads of possession, but too often we kicked it away or played for a penalty so we could get the easy 3 points which meant tthe indiscipline at the back gave them the opportunity to keep in touch. If you dominate a side for that long but only have a 4 point lead with 15minutes left you're inviting them to throw everything at you.
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This weekend England are going to have to get everything absolutely spot on. Also in spite of the Aussies recent improvements in the scrum we need to dominate that area to stand any chance.
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Billy V out of World Cup replaced with Easter. In some ways that's a real blow, but in some respects I think a wily experienced head is something we'll need against Australia. We need a cool head on the pitch when the going gets tough.
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Billy V out of World Cup replaced with Easter. In some ways that's a real blow, but in some respects I think a wily experienced head is something we'll need against Australia. We need a cool head on the pitch when the going gets tough.
It's a massive blow, he was at the heart of everything we did well in the first 2 games.
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I'd be tempted to start with Easter, as I think Morgan offers more impact off the bench.
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A bloke at work went to the Aus v Uru game.
He was describing his view and saying that he was in amongst the Aussie squad members and their families.
I said that that must be close to my ST seat. He showed me his ticket. It wasn't just close to my seat, it was my seat
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That's funny.
OT : Reminds me of the time I was chatting to a girl I worked with in central London and discovered she lived in the same Docklands flat I had rented twenty years earlier.
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I see the circling of the wagons is in full effect with England, including a few gems from Richard "I don't quite know why I'm here" Wigglesworth - http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/29/richard-wigglesworth-will-carling-england-stuart-lancaster
Specifically about Will Carling:
“But if he doesn’t know and hasn’t played the game for how long and hasn’t been involved in professional rugby for how long, let’s have a meaningful discussion about his knowledge, about what he knows about the game. He is there to further his own career and good luck to him.”
I've never particularly liked wigglesworth, but the arrogance in that statement is enough to push me into actively disliking him. The comments he's responding to are here - http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/will-carling-criticises-england-s-classroom-orientated-environment-1.2369747
All seems fairly legitimate to me and largely mirrors my own opinions on the selection and coaching issues.
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Looking at the BBC news feed about the rugby I spotted this one from Monday:
Former England player Paul Ackford said: "England have come to resemble their head coach's image: wholesome, compassionate, likeable, but - sadly - toothless."
I'd just pop "and predictable" at the end and that sums it up. I'm still pissed off about Saturday, I really need to let it go now but I have too many welsh people as friends.
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I'm still pissed off about Saturday, I really need to let it go now but I have too many welsh people as friends.
Imagine being there and sat between two Welshmen. I may need therapy for years to come...
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On the bright side it's only rugby :)
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Time to move on, we fucked up last week and we need to make amends this week. Should we win I think there's a good chance Wales are going out. Now that would be funny.
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Beat the Aussies and it will all be forgotten. Lose and f&*k it it's only Rugby.
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It's a shame Fiji's two key players are out today, it would be great if they could beat Wales. Other than England's performance at the weekend it also annoys me that Wales are being lauded. They only won, because we completely lost our gameplan.
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It's a very strong Aussie team.
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They are and their longstanding Achilles heal of the scrum improved massively in the 4 nations but I think they can still be intimidated if we get in their faces and they concede few early penalties in the scrum. Once they lose confidence England could get a roll on.
They'll be strongest the breakdown, Pocock and Hooper are excellent and provide their backs with good ball. If we lose that battle we could be in trouble as Falou and Ashley-Cooper will score tries. However, they still don't really know their best halves combination and Checka is a rookie at international level.
England havea good recent record against them in WC rugby though, sent them out in 95, 03 and 07. Aussies quite confident as usual.
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I'm not surprised their confident having seen us play last week. But in fairness to Farrell he had a good game last week, and our best chance against them is beat them in the set piece. JJ coming back into the backline will help with the balance as well.
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I'm happier with the balance of the team this week, principally because JJ is in. It instantly makes us look a better team, plus it has the added benefit of getting Goode out of the squad.
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Apologies for the source but this WC is forecast to have the highest aggregate attendance of any sporting event. And also the most expensive.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3254706/Rugby-World-Cup-one-best-attended-sporting-events-despite-expensive.html#ixzz3nDmlG2Cv
That's impressive. Any idea where the money goes?
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Crikey. Using the numbers from the article, so far, 983,000 people have attached matches with an average ticket price of £104. Ignoring the beer drunk, that's £100M. Considering that a reasonable % of the attendees will have come from abroad that's a decent injection of cash into the country's economy.
...And we're not even half way through.
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Putting cost of ticket, transport, food and beer together, reckon I spent well over £300.
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How do the attendances compare to the Tour De France? Sometimes a single stage has over a million watching.
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How do the attendances compare to the Tour De France? Sometimes a single stage has over a million watching.
Whereas it has me rushing to change the channel on the remote
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
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Shit or bust on Saturday now. Lose and we are out. Win and I think we will win the group.
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Wales were lucky to get away with that. Fiji ran them very close.
Any news on Dan Biggar's injury?
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Wales were lucky to get away with that. Fiji ran them very close.
Any news on Dan Biggar's injury?
It is only cramp apparently
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
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Of course they do.
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I'd say it 50:50.
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
Reallly? All of the bookmakers have us as slight favourites for the match. You're going to make an absolute fortune on Saturday night
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It's a shame Fiji's two key players are out today, it would be great if they could beat Wales. Other than England's performance at the weekend it also annoys me that Wales are being lauded. They only won, because we completely lost our gameplan.
They crossed the gain line once all evening, scored a try and kicked the penalties we presented them with, somehow that made them number 2 in the world.
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
What a load of bollocks.
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
Reallly? All of the bookmakers have us as slight favourites for the match. You're going to make an absolute fortune on Saturday night
It's utter nonsense. Don't get me wrong I think it's a very close call, but to say England have no chance is wrong. It's very important the forwards turn up and dominate the set piece.
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
Yeah, 4 wins in the last 5 meetings is the sort of record that suggests it's impossible...
Back in the real world we need to dominate their front 5 from the very start and try to get the ball wide as early as possible to get Pocock and Hooper running all over the pitch, if we can tire those 2 out they lose a lot of their advantage at the breakdown.
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
Yeah, 4 wins in the last 5 meetings is the sort of record that suggests it's impossible...
Back in the real world we need to dominate their front 5 from the very start and try to get the ball wide as early as possible to get Pocock and Hooper running all over the pitch, if we can tire those 2 out they lose a lot of their advantage at the breakdown.
we said pretty much the same about Hooper and Pocock in the pub yesterday as we watched Fuji v Wales...
UTV
The Doc
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Morgan destroyed them at the scrum in the Autumn international last year, here's hoping he can do that again.
The bread stealing convicts might be just a little too consumed with the thought of putting England out of their own World Cup and take their eyes off the ball as well.
Looks a better side with Joseph back in the side (good to see another local boy doing good, his Mum taught my daughter at school)
Let's fuck the fuckers.
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Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
Yeah, 4 wins in the last 5 meetings is the sort of record that suggests it's impossible...
Back in the real world we need to dominate their front 5 from the very start and try to get the ball wide as early as possible to get Pocock and Hooper running all over the pitch, if we can tire those 2 out they lose a lot of their advantage at the breakdown.
Yep it's almost a paradox, we need to crush them in the forwards but we need to get the ball wide to do that.
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Morgan destroyed them at the scrum in the Autumn international last year, here's hoping he can do that again.
The bread stealing convicts might be just a little too consumed with the thought of putting England out of their own World Cup and take their eyes off the ball as well.
Looks a better side with Joseph back in the side (good to see another local boy doing good, his Mum taught my daughter at school)
Let's fuck the fuckers.
Yep Morgan has looked well short of match fitness, we really need him to step up tomorrow.
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Given that this is our home World Cup this is probably our biggest game since the 2007 final. It is the definition of must win and I really hope we turn in one of those quality performances that we occasionally do.
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NZ v Georgia was a pretty entertaining game to watch.
Georgia gave it everything they had (even matching NZ at the cheating at times) but the All Blacks pulled away in the end
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Yeah it was decent. I'm praying this weekend will be a reversal of last weekend and we get a Villa and an England win.
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Amen to that.
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Oh well 50% of that wish has failed.
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Discipline is absolutely paramount tonight England. No stupid penalties. Give a performance worthy of the hosts of the World Cup.
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If I were England coach, I'd fine any #9 that box kicked it.
Every single time it's a waste.
First scrum was worrying - Aussies held their own.
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Oz having a good start
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Oz runners with ball in hand very strong in the contact, forcing our tacklers back. Fitness will be key later on, hope we have the stamina. But they look like breaking through whenever they attack - and that try was too easy as well.
We need to hang on to possession as much as we can, starve them of the ball.
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We are playing some decent rugby ourselves, Aussies a bit lucky on a couple of occasions. Our defence is a worry though.
Referee is a worry. Every scrum so far should have been a penalty to England. Referee reluctant to give it
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That is a fucking joke of a decision
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We are playing some decent rugby ourselves, Aussies a bit lucky on a couple of occasions. Our defence is a worry though.
There's a little bit of the pre-2003 about us - we look good, until we get to their 22, then we huff and puff and can't blow the house down. It's like the SH mental block is back.
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Pocock is superb at turning ball over at the breakdown. We lose momentum quite quickly going forward.
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This ref is a disgrace
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We have no chance with a referee incorrectly interpreting the scrum
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Was forward without a doubt
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going out with a whimper
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Oh well game over.
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Not looking good is it? Why do Villa and England have to play on the same day? Just compounded misery.
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Brilliant. 14 points down and just kick it out of play
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Ben Youngs has been terrible, this is 2 world cups in a row where he's stunk it out.
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Surely that should have at least been a yellow
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Oz have been very good we have been dire . Frozen.
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I think we should bring Cipriani, Burrell, Tuilagi and Steffan Armitage on.
Oh wait we can't, because of pathetic selection decisions.
At least Barritt has justified his place in the team for his defence
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Fiji's defence put up a MUCH stronger resistance against Australia than ours has
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Ben Youngs has been terrible, this is 2 world cups in a row where he's stunk it out.
I agree, some of his decision making is just bloody dire, he never seems to stop and think for two seconds. We are way off it, Australia miles better, their physicality and superior speed of thought are playing us off the park. We look like a Sunday league team
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Goodbye England. Can't quite think of a host stinking out their own tournament as much as this lot have, considering how good they're "supposed" to be.
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Even I with my rudimentary grasp of rubgy could see the weakness of our scrum would see us caught out. The team look fragile and with little belief. This could be a hammering.
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I think we should bring Cipriani, Burrell, Tuilagi and Steffan Armitage on.
Oh wait we can't, because of pathetic selection decisions.
At least Barritt has justified his place in the team for his defence
Armitage in the team and we'd be leading, they're finding it too easy to slow it down.
Ah well at least won't have a path unwanted record like being the first Host to go out in the groups. Wait...
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I think we should bring Cipriani, Burrell, Tuilagi and Steffan Armitage on.
Oh wait we can't, because of pathetic selection decisions.
At least Barritt has justified his place in the team for his defence
Since 2003 though, no coach has ever seemingly selected the right players. It's like we have this world class XV of non-picked players, if only coach X, Y or Z could only see ....
Maybe the premiership just produces brainless robotic players with no bottle and poor skills?
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I can't imagine this England teaming scoring a try like the second Australian score.
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I can't imagine this England teaming scoring a try like the second Australian score.
We played some nice rugby in the 6N this year, but we've regressed horribly since then.
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Must score early. First 5 mins or so.
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My rugby knowledge is a bit limited, but we look a bit like the national footy team when they come up aginst anyone any good. Or Villa, a bit clueless
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My rugby knowledge is a bit limited, but we look a bit like the national footy team when they come up aginst anyone any good. Or Villa, a bit clueless
No way as bad as the Villa.
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So our most attacking threat is now on the wing.
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So our most attacking threat is now on the wing.
And we have the least attacking centre pair in the tournament
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So our most attacking threat is now on the wing.
Must be a sub due to injury, no other explanation.
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I have no idea what has happened to our forwards.
Marler is a penalty waiting to happen.
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They are beasting us at the breakdown.
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Pocock again at the breakdown, how many times, superb tbf. Aussies are just a far better side.
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We're shit, a day of watching Villa and these twats, glorious.
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I have no idea what has happened to our forwards.
Marler is a penalty waiting to happen.
And again.
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Penalties to Wallabies at the scrum - doing a job on us here.
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They are beasting us at the breakdown.
And now the scrum.
Goodnight all, there must be something better to do at this time of night.
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Taxi for Lancaster anyway, he's been failing for years.
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Prince Harry was part of the team meeting? Wtf??
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Maybe the Queen has been doing the scrum practice?
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Lancaster should never ever get another job in English rugby after this disgrace of a world cup
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Too little too late
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Shock horror. Ford on and we look better. Lancaster really is a fucking cretin for dropping him
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Nice to see Ford come on and show just how much of a prick Lancaster is to have left him out, shame a few others won't get that opportunity.
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Prince Harry was part of the team meeting? Wtf??
If that's true that's fucking ridiculous.
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Nice to see Ford come on and show just how much of a prick Lancaster is to have left him out, shame a few others won't get that opportunity.
He probably wouldn't have even bought him on if it weren't for the injury to May. I've absolutely no doubt that we would have beaten Wales comfortably had Ford started
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That conversion was made pretty easily, and was more or less from the same spot as the pen vs Wales that they kicked into touch last week ...
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Nick Easter - isn't he too fat, and too old?
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Nowhere near good enough
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George Ford. The two words that should be thrown at Lancaster in every interview, every conversation he ever has wherever he goes after being sacked tomorrow
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Aussies are so dominant at the breakdown it's not funny. Feels like It's either possession or a penalty every time.
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Phil the Greek on line outs.
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Aussies are so dominant at the breakdown it's not funny. Feels like It's either possession or a penalty every time.
Another reason why Steffan Armitage should be in the team
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These officials are having a laugh now
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Really?
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He'd already knocked on. How the fuck can it be a penalty????????
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Game over.
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That is a fucking disgrace.
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We've been poor, unacceptably so, but the officials have had a mare
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There should have been a yellow for the Aussies when Pocock (I think) flew into a ruck without using his arms and cleared out Mike Brown.
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Farrell and Burgess could both have been carded there
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Farrell and Burgess could both have been carded there
The aussie had already knocked on
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Another misinterpreted scrum to put the nail in the coffin
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There should have been a yellow for the Aussies when Pocock (I think) flew into a ruck without using his arms and cleared out Mike Brown.
Agree, inconsistency there, and he wad very harsh on Marler as well.
Doesn't take away from the fact that Lancaster is a moron and has proven himself totally incapable as i suspected he would all along.
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Shocker for officials and England.Both piss poor
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3 minutes have gone by with virtually no rugby. Aside from being furious at a gutless England rugby team, surely something has to be done about the amount of time that is allowed to just be wiped off the clock?
They should be calling time off every time a scrum needs to be set, and why the fuck does a kicker get up to a minute to kick?
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Australia have deserved it to be honest. They've been better in every department but the breakdown dominance was huge.
Very poor from England.
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The England coach who oversees his team losing virtually all their scrums to Oz deserves a P45. Losing. Scrums. To. Oz.
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Shite.
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Embarrassing
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Feel sorry for players like Watson and JJ - real quality players that deserve better around them.
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They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.
They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.
I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?
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And there ends the Lancaster reign. Ultimately a good man who was too rigid and narrow minded in selection and bottled it at the key time. Another disasterous world cup.
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In a big pressure, must win game that is a hammering.
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Gordon Brittas looking like he knows he won't see out his contract.
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Nine turnovers.
The writing was on the wall last week. Hell, it was on the wall last season.
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They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.
They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.
I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?
George Ford not on until half time is a pretty massive fucking complaint
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They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.
They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.
I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?
George Ford not on until half time is a pretty massive fucking complaint
I don't think he would have changed the result to be honest.
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Sigh. Supporting Argentina now.
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Worse coach? Lancaster or Sherwood? Who's ya got ?
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Oh dear, bang goes all the media and marketing hype! ITV will not be happy. We looked like brainless pub players, the Australians had so much more physicality and sharpness of mind. We mirror the coach and the captain - slow and not very bright. Totally outclassed in every department.
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First turnover was in the 77th minute according to the radio.
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They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.
They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.
I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?
George Ford not on until half time is a pretty massive fucking complaint
I don't think he would have changed the result to be honest.
In the first half, during the spells with the ball we had, he'd have made a massive difference in unlocking their defence in their 22. By the time he came on there was just too much to do.
We'd definitely have beaten Wales last week if he'd started
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Could be lots of empty seats in Manchester next Saturday
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ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something. Cheer up!
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Yet another fucking horrible weekend of sport
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ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something. Cheer up!
They know that interest in the tournament that they are televising will plummet from now on. I will watch the quarters and so on because I'm a big rugby fan but the masses of people with a casual interest won't tune in again after today.
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ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something. Cheer up!
They know that interest in the tournament that they are televising will plummet from now on. I will watch the quarters and so on because I'm a big rugby fan but the masses of people with a casual interest won't tune in again after today.
The thing is with rugby and the countries that play it, I will be watching the rest of the tournament hoping that both teams lose in most of the matches. Got SA and Wales family, but SA and Wales losing is far funnier than them winning. And the ABs losing is always great. And Oz. And the French of course. Not forgetting the other bitter Celts too. So come on Argentina, come on Japan!
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I'm going to take heart in the fact that we've only got to see 1 more Lancaster team before we get a new manager, hopefully one with a brain. Should mean they review the overseas rule as well.
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ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something. Cheer up!
They know that interest in the tournament that they are televising will plummet from now on. I will watch the quarters and so on because I'm a big rugby fan but the masses of people with a casual interest won't tune in again after today.
The thing is with rugby and the countries that play it, I will be watching the rest of the tournament hoping that both teams lose in most of the matches. Got SA and Wales family, but SA and Wales losing is far funnier than them winning. And the ABs losing is always great. And Oz. And the French of course. Not forgetting the other bitter Celts too. So come on Argentina, come on Japan!
Just like watching the Villa in other words! You get all your pleasure these days from seeing Chelsea and Liverpool et al lose games. I shall certainly be rooting for Wales and SA to get knocked out.
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I will say I do like Lancaster as a man, he's a decent bloke, but he's managed to do what Johnson did and get us to trough for a World Cup. Robshaw as well is a good man, but not a captain. Back to the drawing board after a tactically naive and shambolic World Cup.
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Lancaster telling us the squad have come up short.
Cheers for that.
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Thing is what else can he say? I think a massively obvious thing is that we need a back row who know how to work at the breakdown. Also players who haven't played for 6 months to a year due to injury shouldn't be at a major tournament regardless of their class.
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The biggest mistake he made was losing his nerve and dropping Ford. That's what ended our hopes and caused confusion.
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Lancaster telling us the squad have come up short.
Cheers for that.
Thing is what else can he say? I think a massively obvious thing is that we need a back row who know how to work at the breakdown. Also players who haven't played for 6 months to a year due to injury shouldn't be at a major tournament regardless of their class.
It came across as blaming the players. Perhaps he was including himself in that.
edit: it has got Matt Dawson razzed up too. "I think what sticks out for me is, when Stuart Lancaster was talking about the squad, he said 'they've come up short'. I find that bizzare."
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So with the Villa/Stoke game and the England/Australia game that was really worth only having 3 hours sleep and getting up in the early hours for.
And you lot think you have it bad!
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It's been a bad day
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A bloody awful day again.
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Launchbury man of the match.
At least it has ended on a high note.....
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What a ridiculous decision that is.
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Launchbury man of the match.
At least it has ended on a high note.....
Totally anonymous and outclassed - extremely over-hyped player who is in fact very average
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Launchbury man of the match.
At least it has ended on a high note.....
I'd agree with that from the England team, which makes the decision to replace him with the completely ineffective Kruis all the more bizarre. Yes he was tiring but he was also making a difference.
Right now my opinion is that: Marler, Youngs (both), Parling, Robshaw, Farrell and Barritt from the starters and Easter, Webber, Kruis and Wigglesworth from the bench should all be dropped along with the entire coaching team. Bring in Waller, Cowan-Dickie, Lawes, Armitage, Robson, Daly, Kvesic, Itoje and Ewers and build a squad for Japan, I couldn't give a fuck about 2016 6N or 2017 6N - winning those but leaving ourselves without the time to get players experienced for the world cup is stupid. Maybe Armitage is too old but get Kvesic there as well and let him learn from the best 7 in the world (who watched the world cup on the TV).
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Launchbury man of the match.
At least it has ended on a high note.....
Totally anonymous and outclassed - extremely over-hyped player who is in fact very average
Disagree. He's been out for a year, but fully fit and on form he's a brilliant player.
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It is a shame for Lancaster, ultimately his pragmitism has ruined him. If he'd stayed the course with Ford as his starting 10 I bet we would have gone through the group.
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Farrell shouldn't just be discarded. He's a world class kicker and should be developed.
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Prince Harry and William arent good talismen
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Shame that the FIFA rules didn't apply: host always gets a free pass into the second round.
But the IRB is not above reproach because the rules seem to arbitrarily revolve around whether the elites will gain an advantage or not on any given play.
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what about Sherwood taking over the rugby team and Lancaster the football team....
can't be any worse than it already is........can it?
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We need to learn that whilst character and culture are very important we also need to have a game plan and players who are specialists in their positions.
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For me, the writing was on the wall when Lancaster was asked if the team were ready. 'I think so' was the reply.
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Farrell shouldn't just be discarded. He's a world class place kicker and should be developed.
Fixed, his tactical kicking is every bit as bad as his passing. He a more extreme version of Mike Brown, perfectly competent when everything is scripted but as soon as there is a decision to make he either freezes or gets it wrong.
For me, the writing was on the wall when Lancaster was asked if the team were ready. 'I think so' was the reply.
The writing was on the wall when Lancaster got the job on the back of not being terrible as the caretaker, when the England coach has more experience teaching history than he does coaching rugby you know it's not going to end well.
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We have problems all over to sort. The front row and back row aren't good enough currently. The centre pairing hasn't worked and we had the wrong fly half starting.
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We have problems all over to sort. The front row and back row aren't good enough currently. The centre pairing hasn't worked and we had the wrong fly half starting.
Front Row - Marler can't scrummage, Youngs can't hook, Webber can't hook or throw, Mako can't scrummage. We're ok on the other side, Cole is a good player and Brookes will be superb by 2019.
Second Row - Parling isn't good enough, We need to get Itoje into the mix, him Lawes and Launchbury are the match day 3.
Back Row - 8 we're fine with Morgan and Billy, add Ewers and the depth is there, we need a proper 7, the experiment has failed so let's get a proper one in.
Half Backs - Ben Youngs has failed in 2 world cups, lets move on, Simpson and Robson should get a chance. Farrell needs to learn how to play 10, there's more to it than kicking from a tee.
Centres - the primary requirement now needs to be a pairing who can both be involved in attacking play, hopefully Burgess will get a year or 2 of playing 12 under his belt and become the player we wanted but for now he needs to go to his club and learn the game. Barritt should be consigned to pile of truly awful centres to have played for England in the last 12 years (jaime fucking noon top of the list).
Outside backs - Brown needs to improve his decision making, he gets caught on his own too often and puts in some god awful kicks, a couple of tries and lots of metres gained can't excuse him of the mistakes he's made int he last 2-3 years. The wings are ok, lets work out how to get them ball in space (it starts with replacements at 7 and 9).
Coaches - A bit of fitness work and set-piece work is fine, making that your sole focus makes you predictable and leaves the players unable to make good decisions in broken field play or in later phases of possession, kicking the fucking thing away should be much further down the list than it has been. On top of that we need to focus on the basics, at club and country level you need 23 players who can all catch and pass, you need most of those 23 to be willing and capable of securing ball at the ruck, if you train without a proper 7 you never learn how to deal with one in a game so lets get a couple of nasty bastards in who do everything to slow the ruck down and kill the ball. Lets concentrate on hookers learning to throw and hook so the set piece is secure enough that we keep our own ball, we don't have to trundle them 5yards back on every scrum.
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We have problems all over to sort. The front row and back row aren't good enough currently. The centre pairing hasn't worked and we had the wrong fly half starting.
Front Row - Marler can't scrummage, Youngs can't hook, Webber can't hook or throw, Mako can't scrummage. We're ok on the other side, Cole is a good player and Brookes will be superb by 2019.
Second Row - Parling isn't good enough, We need to get Itoje into the mix, him Lawes and Launchbury are the match day 3.
Back Row - 8 we're fine with Morgan and Billy, add Ewers and the depth is there, we need a proper 7, the experiment has failed so let's get a proper one in.
Half Backs - Ben Youngs has failed in 2 world cups, lets move on, Simpson and Robson should get a chance. Farrell needs to learn how to play 10, there's more to it than kicking from a tee.
Centres - the primary requirement now needs to be a pairing who can both be involved in attacking play, hopefully Burgess will get a year or 2 of playing 12 under his belt and become the player we wanted but for now he needs to go to his club and learn the game. Barritt should be consigned to pile of truly awful centres to have played for England in the last 12 years (jaime fucking noon top of the list).
Outside backs - Brown needs to improve his decision making, he gets caught on his own too often and puts in some god awful kicks, a couple of tries and lots of metres gained can't excuse him of the mistakes he's made int he last 2-3 years. The wings are ok, lets work out how to get them ball in space (it starts with replacements at 7 and 9).
Coaches - A bit of fitness work and set-piece work is fine, making that your sole focus makes you predictable and leaves the players unable to make good decisions in broken field play or in later phases of possession, kicking the fucking thing away should be much further down the list than it has been. On top of that we need to focus on the basics, at club and country level you need 23 players who can all catch and pass, you need most of those 23 to be willing and capable of securing ball at the ruck, if you train without a proper 7 you never learn how to deal with one in a game so lets get a couple of nasty bastards in who do everything to slow the ruck down and kill the ball. Lets concentrate on hookers learning to throw and hook so the set piece is secure enough that we keep our own ball, we don't have to trundle them 5yards back on every scrum.
The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.
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The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.
The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.
How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.
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The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.
The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.
How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.
I assume the second part of your comment is tongue in cheek. He is a phenomenal League player. I feel sorry for him as he has been given no time to bed in at all. I think league forwards have a greater transition time than the backs due to the technical aspect of forward play. To turn a forward into a back only complicates it more.
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The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.
The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.
How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.
I assume the second part of your comment is tongue in cheek. He is a phenomenal League player. I feel sorry for him as he has been given no time to bed in at all. I think league forwards have a greater transition time than the backs due to the technical aspect of forward play. To turn a forward into a back only complicates it more.
Semi tongue-in-cheek. Based on what I've seen of Burgess playing Union, its difficult for me to see what made him a stand-out League player.
You might of guessed that I'm not a fan of League. I struggle to watch more than a few minutes without yelling "for fecks sake, get up in support of the ball carrier and make yourself available for a pass".
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The last two games have seen England go back to the dark ages Rugby wise. No flair, predictable, slow at the breakdown and use of the ball and the amount of turnovers they have conceded isn't acceptable at that level.
They seemed to run into dead ends against Aussie and had no clue how to change their game plan. Hooper and Pocock had a field day and showed how it pays to have mobile and quick forwards in a team.
The last couple of days over here have been hell, with the Kiwi's really enjoying England's demise. They can't believe how bad they were.
At least I won't have to get up early to watch any more dire Rugby.
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Changing from an attacking Ford to a pragmatic Farrell ultimately cost us a place in the next round. It's not that Farrell was bad against Wales, it's that it signified that we'd bottled it. We have go back back to moving towards an attacking style and it's critical that we become a lot more streetwise at the breakdown. Also the front row needs a lot of work.
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Changing from an attacking Ford to a pragmatic Farrell ultimately cost us a place in the next round. It's not that Farrell was bad against Wales, it's that it signified that we'd bottled it. We have go back back to moving towards an attacking style and it's critical that we become a lot more streetwise at the breakdown. Also the front row needs a lot of work.
Farrell didn't make any mistakes and kicked his goals versus Wales, but he created far too little considering our dominance for 60 minutes.
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The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.
The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.
How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.
I assume the second part of your comment is tongue in cheek. He is a phenomenal League player. I feel sorry for him as he has been given no time to bed in at all. I think league forwards have a greater transition time than the backs due to the technical aspect of forward play. To turn a forward into a back only complicates it more.
Semi tongue-in-cheek. Based on what I've seen of Burgess playing Union, its difficult for me to see what made him a stand-out League player.
You might of guessed that I'm not a fan of League. I struggle to watch more than a few minutes without yelling "for fecks sake, get up in support of the ball carrier and make yourself available for a pass".
In league he hits the ball at pace and runs through people, he's also fantastic at off-loading in the tackle. In union he hasn't got the hang of the timing so he looks lost and people aren't used to the snap offloads so they're not running the lines to make the most of them. Stupidly the centre who would've worked well with him is the one who he replaced in the squad.
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Lancaster et al seemed determined to shoehorn Burgess into the squad when it wasn't yet clear whether he could play centre. I have some sympathy for the bloke in the way that he's been switched around between centre and the back row.
I see that he's only 26, so him still being around for 2019 isn't out of the question. Hopefully by then the coaches will have figured out how to make the most of him.
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It sounds like Lancaster had handed over his team selection to Andy Farrell and led to a big fall out with Catt. Either way, Farrell has to go.
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I would say is Lancaster good enough to coach NZ, South Africa or Australia........if the answer is no then he isn't good enough for England
and this non-selection of players playing abroad which he himself insisted on has to go
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It sounds like Lancaster had handed over his team selection to Andy Farrell and led to a big fall out with Catt. Either way, Farrell has to go.
The rumours also say that Farrell does all the coaching and Lancaster does not even go onto the training pitch and it does not "sit" well that his son is in the squad
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It sounds like Lancaster had handed over his team selection to Andy Farrell and led to a big fall out with Catt. Either way, Farrell has to go.
The rumours also say that Farrell does all the coaching and Lancaster does not even go onto the training pitch and it does not "sit" well that his son is in the squad
All rumours but it wouldn't surprise me if there is a big element of truth in that, we 'look' like a union team being coached like a league team, in the backs it's pretty clear that the coaching is sub-standard because we're only coaching 1-2 phases so anything after that we look lost and become entirely reliant on one of the outside backs doing something amazing.
I also agree on Owen F's place in the squad, his kicking from the tee has disguised how poor a 10 he really is. It's no mistake that he's only played about 25 games at 10 for sarries and he's been at 13 the rest of the time, he's just not good enough. I'm also utterly convinced that Burgess being included was Farrells doing.
If you reflect on the 4 years since the last world cup there have been a few heroic backs to the walls victories in the autumn and a couple of 6Ns where we've nearly been good enough but the only time we looked genuinely good enough to compete in this world cup was the Argentina tour, where Farrell and Robshaw were missing (along with a few others, Dickson played 9 and generated lots of quick ball as well) and we had to play a creative 10 and a proper 7 and suddenly everything clicked. That should've been the blueprint but fear and negativity were always at the heart of the squad so it was always a squad picked to try to keep in touch with the big boys and sneak it rather than dominate. That mentality needs to go, we're not a bunch of plucky underdogs who are just happy to get a chance to play at the top end, Georgia and Japan have shown that those sides have a lot to offer but a team that's won a world cup and is rarely outside the top 5 in the rankings shouldn't be trying to emulate them.
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What's the talk of a falling out with Catt and where's that coming from?
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Lancaster has just said 'I believe 100% the group of players at the 6 nations will be the same as what is out there'. That is a seriously worrying statement. How about a specialist 7, Tuilagi and Hartley to name but a few.
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Lancaster and Farrell have to go. Robshaw needs to be binned as captain as well. It makes him an automatic pick and he isn't good enough.
If we still refuse to change the rules to get Armitage involved then Kvesic has to start at 7 from now on.
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Lancaster has just said 'I believe 100% the group of players at the 6 nations will be the same as what is out there'. That is a seriously worrying statement. How about a specialist 7, Tuilagi and Hartley to name but a few.
Sounds likea statement from someone who knows it's going to have fuck all to do with him either way.
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Lancaster lost his way 2 years ago I think, he cleared out all the dross left behind after Mike Tindall's stag weekend and there was an immediate improvement in both style and results. But then something happened, he went on the defensive and couldn't decide on his best team, added to that some bizarre selections and changes of heart and mind and we are pretty much where we were 4 years ago less the disciplinary issues that occurred in NZ. There has been no progress, in fact overall we've gone backwards, you can't argue with that fact, the rankings don't lie and nor does the fact we failed to progress from our group.
For me Lancasters decline and fall can be summed up in one defining moment in the Australia game, bringing on Nick Easter.
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Lancaster lost his way 2 years ago I think, he cleared out all the dross left behind after Mike Tindall's stag weekend and there was an immediate improvement in both style and results. But then something happened, he went on the defensive and couldn't decide on his best team, added to that some bizarre selections and changes of heart and mind and we are pretty much where we were 4 years ago less the disciplinary issues that occurred in NZ. There has been no progress, in fact overall we've gone backwards, you can't argue with that fact, the rankings don't lie and nor does the fact we failed to progress from our group.
For me Lancasters decline and fall can be summed up in one defining moment in the Australia game, bringing on Nick Easter.
I think the clearer summing up was that an injury to May forced him to bring on Ford and suddenly we spent 20minutes looking like we had a chance, before they clocked the fact that if they assumed our centres weren't a threat they could easily close the door. A forced change that would never have happened otherwise gave us the only period of the game where we looked like a decent side.
For me the point when it became clear we were fucked was when he left Hartley out because he wouldn't be available against Fiji, I think I just wasn't willing to admit it but £5 on Australia to win the tournament and a decision not to take tickets for the Uruguay game when I had the chance (although it was partly down to me supposedly being in Dubai this week which then got cancelled, I'd have been back with loads of time to get there though) showed where my head was. Without Hartley our front 5 just doesn't work, it's not that he is a fantastic player or a nice guy; it's that he makes sure that the 4 guys around him are playing up to the standard he demands. I have no doubt that Marler (who looked fantastic in the scrum during the 6N) would've got a massive kick up the arse if he scrummaged like he has in the last couple of months with Hartley at his side.
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The Hartley decision may have been forced on him, old farts in suits and ties at the RFU blocking his inclusion following his ban, you never know. One that is inexcusable is the omission of Europes best no 10.
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Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?
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Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?
Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.
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Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?
Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.
That's a shame. Anyway, your list of front rowers who can't scrummage - surely that can be coached into them? Look at Australia with Ledesma and what he's [at least been credited with] doing to their scrum.
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Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?
Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.
He's now studying wine in France, so no need to be too concerned about his wellbeing.
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Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?
Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.
That's a shame. Anyway, your list of front rowers who can't scrummage - surely that can be coached into them? Look at Australia with Ledesma and what he's [at least been credited with] doing to their scrum.
Should be possible, but the front row is a delicate thing, you need to grow a unit of 6-8 front row players who all work well together, I'd start that by getting a hooker who can hook and throw and a 2 props who can scrum straight and low and aren't easily pushed back.
I'd genuinely be looking at taking the entire Saints front row next 6N, Waller, Hartley and Brookes, add Cole, Youngs and Mako and you've got your basic set for matchday. Hartley probably won't make it to the next world cup so I'd have Cowan-Dickie around to work with and mould into the long-term solution.
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Shame that Canadia couldn't hang on yesterday. I was quite impressed with them (especially that winger wearing 14) up until they changed their scrum half.
The guy they brought on was rubbish
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Little stories coming out of the England camp about disharmony are never encouraging.
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The latest is that Cipriani and Catt had a bust up after Cipriani found out he wasn't in the final squad.
Other players threatened a revolt.
All rumours at the moment and as you say not very encouraging.
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I think the revolt was more about Burrell being dropped for Burgess.
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I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.
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Namibia could have beat Georgia if they'd managed to keep 15 (or even just 14) players on the pitch
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Its my one and only game this weekend Nippon v American Colonies at Kingsholm
Fickle fan that I am, if Samoa beat Scotland I'll be hoping Japan win and therefore qualify (they deserve to after defeating SA). If Scotland win and there's therefore nothing on the Gloucester game, I'll root for the Colonies
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I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.
The problem with a league convert going into the forwards is that they have to learn how to deal with the breakdown very quickly. Given that is England's weakness I'd want to see him single-handedly demolishing teams before i gave him a shot there at international level.
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I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.
The problem with a league convert going into the forwards is that they have to learn how to deal with the breakdown very quickly. Given that is England's weakness I'd want to see him single-handedly demolishing teams before i gave him a shot there at international level.
Oh I wouldn't be rushing him in, I'd give him a whole year playing 6 for Bath to learn the game before he gets back near the England squad. Then he'd have another three years development under his belt after that before the next World Cup.
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I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.
The problem with a league convert going into the forwards is that they have to learn how to deal with the breakdown very quickly. Given that is England's weakness I'd want to see him single-handedly demolishing teams before i gave him a shot there at international level.
Oh I wouldn't be rushing him in, I'd give him a whole year playing 6 for Bath to learn the game before he gets back near the England squad. Then he'd have another three years development under his belt after that before the next World Cup.
His coach at Bath (Ford) was very quick to come out and say that he'll be playing flanker next season.
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If he can learn the breakdown he would be a great 6. Stick Kvesic the other side and that is a very different back row proposition.
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What with the Celts obsession with everything England especially these last few weeks, as much as it hurts every fibre in my body I'd just like to wish Australia all the best this weekend but even more I'd like SA to utterly humilate them the following week.
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I have money on Australia, so I probably want them to win. But ultimately I'm now a southern hemisphere fan in this World Cup, as I just don't want any of the northern hemisphere teams to win, especially Wales. I really dislike Wales style of Rugby.
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I have money on Australia, so I probably want them to win. But ultimately I'm now a southern hemisphere fan in this World Cup, as I just don't want any of the northern hemisphere teams to win, especially Wales. I really dislike Wales style of Rugby.
Australia, South Africa, France in that order. Fuck the Irish and the Welsh and double fucks to the Kiwis, the cheating fuckers. I also have money on Australia. I'd accept France winning because maybe England would then realise that it's the highest standard league in the world (not the best, the English league is much better to watch) and we really shouldn't have a problem picking players from there. I'd also like to see the northern hemisphere start to even up the split of trophies.
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My daughter informed me a couple of weeks ago that her husband had been given two tickets for the Ireland France match in Cardiff. She told me today that the value of the tickets were £250 each, corporate I would imagine. She told me today that they can't go, for several reasons, one being that the kids are unwell with Chickenpox, they couldn't get accommodation and the logistics staying elsewhere were very difficult. She was to be seated next to Ed Sheerin apparently, she's gutted. Hubby handed the tickets back.
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Have been avoiding looking at the squad for tomorrow for as long as possible but I couldn't stop myself any more:
BACKS Alex Goode; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Owen Farrell, Jack Nowell; George Ford, Danny Care.
FORWARDS Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Joe Launchbury, Geoff Parling, James Haskell, Chris Robshaw (capt), Nick Easter.
Replacements Jamie George, Joe Marler, David Wilson, George Kruis, Tom Wood, Richard Wigglesworth, Jonathan Joseph, Mike Brown.
So nothing on the line in a game where we should be looking at 50+ points and he still feels the need to pick Farrell, choosing to drop Joseph instead and continue with an inside centre who can't fucking pass. The sooner this chancer fucks off back to teaching history the better.
I see also that Jim Mallinder has put himself forward for the job in a 'at some point in the future' manner, if we're going English then he's genuinely the only decent option so I'm happy to see that he's not ruling it out, he's a coach who understands the need for quick ball so I suspect we'd see a proper 7 and 9, 10 and 12 who can pass the fucking thing. I also think the Sarries obsession would ease off which can only be good for the game, I don't care if they won the league, they did it by having a big pack, picking tacklers in the centres and kicking the ball to the wings, it's not a tactic that will ever work at international level, you need to have a threat through the middle or you become predictable.
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Totally agree, Farrell at 12 is a baffling selection, Slade & JJ would have made more sense. Would have liked to have seen Watson switched to full-back. And it would have been a good opportunity to try Burgess at 6.
And yes, I really wanted Mallinder to get the job last time and I see no reason to change that view.
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Brilliant 20minutes from Samoa, ripping the Scots to Ribbons.
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The Scots are so sluggish. Samoa have so much pace and direction, Scotland are flat-footed and disorganised.
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Brilliant 20minutes from Samoa, ripping the Scots to Ribbons.
Come on Samoa, would love Japan to make it through.
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Brilliant 20minutes from Samoa, ripping the Scots to Ribbons.
Come on Samoa, would love Japan to make it through.
Scots down to 14, to compound the disadvantage they already had of playing in Macron shirts. Like to see Samoa put more than a score between them and Scotland before HT, because I fancy the Scots will be much stronger as the game wears on.
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The Scots are so sluggish. Samoa have so much pace and direction, Scotland are flat-footed and disorganised.
The problem is Samoa are so expansive that they're leaving holes. It's making a great game though.
Pisi x2 and lee-lo have been brilliant in the midfield.
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Have to say the Scottish coach looks much better on Celebrity Juice.
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Good.
15 v 13 and you still can't score.
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Wales vs Aus is like us vs ManUre. Even if all the cards fall their way, they still find a way to screw it up.
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I can see Oz winning the WC. So good defensively today .
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I can see Oz winning the WC. So good defensively today .
I put a tenner on that just before they beat the kiwis. I think it was 10/1, so I'd be delighted if they did win.
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A real tough game of Rugby going on in Cardiff. Ireland suffering injuries to key players.
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Great game, real guts from Ireland, a real shame about O'Connell, I'd be surprised if he makes next weekend.
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Tremendous display by the Irish, I feared for them at half time. Great support too.
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Very impressive from Ireland.
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Very good from Ireland......lets hope the injuries and possible suspension don't cost them
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Watched the 2nd half in a bar near Kingsholm. Great performance by Ireland
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Nice that Gloucester Council have decided to close the fanzine after today's game because a few publicans have moaned about loss of earnings. Typical small-minded outlook.
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I thought as good as Ireland were France were very poor. I'd expect the last 4 to be Australia, France, Ireland, South Africa
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I'm hoping the last 4 is Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Argentina.
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The American Colonies are crap at catching and passing. They were fine last night when they just ran with the ball but anything else was a struggle.
Japan only won 28-18 but it was more comfortable than the score suggests
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The American Colonies are crap at catching and passing. They were fine last night when they just ran with the ball but anything else was a struggle.
Japan only won 28-18 but it was more comfortable than the score suggests
Robshaw and Haskell were hardly proficient against Uruguay. It's pretty embarrassing that a 37 year old who was there as cover after a couple of weeks as a pundit was so far ahead of the other 2 in the back row in terms of basic catching and passing. I'll just about let props who can't pass get away with it if they're fantastic in the scrum and can smash through tackles at the fringes but the rest of the pack have to be willing and able to join the line and be involved in backs moves.
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Aussies reckon getting t the final shouldn't be too hard from here. To be fair, I think they've looked the best allround side so far.
They're desperately hoping France do their usual job on the Kiwi's.
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Aussies reckon getting t the final shouldn't be too hard from here. To be fair, I think they've looked the best allround side so far.
They're desperately hoping France do their usual job on the Kiwi's.
France will be a tough game for the kiwi's because they've had a pathetically easy ride this far and France are coming in off a really tough game and will know they need to up it a couple of levels.
I bet on Australia at the start and I've seen nothing to suggest that wasn't a really good use of the money. Right now I'd be going for Oz vs SA in the final.
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Aussies reckon getting t the final shouldn't be too hard from here. To be fair, I think they've looked the best allround side so far.
They're desperately hoping France do their usual job on the Kiwi's.
France will be a tough game for the kiwi's because they've had a pathetically easy ride this far and France are coming in off a really tough game and will know they need to up it a couple of levels.
I bet on Australia at the start and I've seen nothing to suggest that wasn't a really good use of the money. Right now I'd be going for Oz vs SA in the final.
Unfortunately I think NZ will step up a few gears this weekend and will smash France (be funny if France won though the country would go into melt down).
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A sad ending to Paul O'Connell's superb international career.
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Yes, he deserved a more fitting exit. Ireland will miss him but, such is sport that both Brian O'Driscoll and Ronan O'Gara hardly seemed to have been missed at all.
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Yes, he deserved a more fitting exit. Ireland will miss him but, such is sport that both Brian O'Driscoll and Ronan O'Gara hardly seemed to have been missed at all.
Because it happened on half time we - the TV viewing public - missed a huge ovation in the stadium (apparently). They mentioned it during the half time commentary if I remember correctly.
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Tyler Morgan picked by Wales for the QF.
Makes sense, since James Hook can cover more positions from the bench.
My cousin was having a coffee with Ty's dad when he got the text from his son to say he was playing. Father is a bit pleased.
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If your from the Forest, everyone is your cousin?!
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I really dislike Wales.
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Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.
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That's [iss poor from the blindside winger, terrible decision to go in and leave that massive gap, has probably cost them a semi-final place there.
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Get in delighted with that.
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Good. Welshists can all shut the fuck up again and go back to singing and sheep worrying.
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The French are taking a beating here
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McCaw is the wrong side at every fucking opportunity.
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If your from the Forest, everyone is your cousin?!
Careful, Leeg is on the warpath about incorrect use of You're and Your
Whilst in theory, your assertion isn't far wrong, the coffee was being drunk in Newport
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Just got in in time to see the first half highlights; what a pass from Dan Carter
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I've been under the impression that because of a weak group, the All Blacks really aren't all that. But they are, aren't they? They're only in second or third gear here.
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[/Nigel Owens]I don't see a punch, I just see a fist to the face[Nigel Owens]
Even when McCaw is pinged for being offside, a French guy's non-punch punch means he gets away with it
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don't really do rugby but the all backs are quite good aren't they?
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The pundit had a little dig earlier when one of the others got called for being off his feet. The commentator mentioned something about his invisible cloak and the pundit said, 'yeah, he's turned to McCaw and asked him how you do it properly.'
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don't really do rugby but the all backs are quite good aren't they?
They're okay
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Beeb 5 have Andrew Mehrtens in the commentary team. I think he's an excellent summariser
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For a RWC quarter final, this is a hammering
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Well, could well be no NH teams left in the competition by Monday morning.
Here's hoping, seeing as I want Ireland and Scotland to lose.
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Almost as one sided as last years FA Cup Final
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Well, could well be no NH teams left in the competition by Monday morning.
Here's hoping, seeing as I want Ireland and Scotland to lose.
I can't see Argentina beating Ireland
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BTW can anyone give me a non-conspiratorial reason why Offside McCaw seemingly gets away with so much more than other players? Does he really infringe so much, or do we assume he does because it's him? And if he does, why do refs not call it?
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Savea is some player.
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I don't mind Ireland or Scotland. I don't really have a problem with Wales, but it was absurd how many fake Welshmen came out of the woodwork after the England win. They managed to turn what was a narrow, fairly jammy victory into an utter hiding. For that alone, I was happy with the Saffers doing them over.
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Well, could well be no NH teams left in the competition by Monday morning.
Here's hoping, seeing as I want Ireland and Scotland to lose.
I can't see Argentina beating Ireland
I dunno, I think they have a chance. Although I don't remember how seeing how they generally handle catching Garryowens. But they have a good pack and some skillful backs.
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France are being very French at the moment
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At 55-13 with 12 minutes to go this is getting embarrassing for the French.
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The one thing worse than the Globetrotters running riot is the needless fawning of the non-NZ commentators.
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This is absurd. Rugby from another planet.
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France are being very French at the moment
Nah, in the old days the French would now start punching. Both the opposition and their own team mates.
Even though I'm English, I don't like the French being a laughing stock. Things were much more interesting when they played with flair and were a genuine threat - when they weren't turning on each other. Brian Moore probably thinks otherwise though.
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This is absurd. Rugby from another planet.
I would still fancy Australia vs the ABs though.
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Yeah, still fancy the Aussies. They've played the most tactically aware rugby.
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That was a serious statement by the All Blacks.
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A French side with flair is good for rugby, they need to find their soul again.
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Is this thing still going on, it feels like months since it started.
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Well a month. It's no different from
football really and it's been brilliantly supported.
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BTW can anyone give me a non-conspiratorial reason why Offside McCaw seemingly gets away with so much more than other players? Does he really infringe so much, or do we assume he does because it's him? And if he does, why do refs not call it?
I can't give a reason but I can say with a huge degree of certainty (I played back row for 11 years at a good standard) that he really does infringe that much. Counting the rucks he enters legally is a lot easier anr he has an interpretation of the offside rule that is uniquely his. I didn't watch tonight because we had a guest, they'd happily have had it on but I get ranty if I watch them so i decided it was best to give it a miss.
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Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.
They weren't Welsh.
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Although Ireland will start as favourites it will be interesting to see who Argentina do. Playing with the southern hemisphere big 3 as undoubtedly helped them develop quicker, I still see them as a northern hemisphere style team playing in the southern hemisphere. Clearly the loss of key personnel means they aren't the same threat they were a few years ago, but against what's seen as a decent northern hemisphere side, will their natural game honed against better teams be a leveller?
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You have to say,whichever sport you may like or dislike,that there is nowhere else you see a national anthem sung more passionately from players and crowd than at an international rubgy union game.
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Come on the pumas!
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Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.
They weren't Welsh.
I know, they were mostly Brummies. And there's no 'u' in Rorke's Drift.
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Brilliant start from Argentina.
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Lovely stuff. Still can't get used to this new Argentina though, throwing the ball wide, playing expansively.
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Lovely stuff. Still can't get used to this new Argentina though, throwing the ball wide, playing expansively.
Scrum's still the same as it ever was though!
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They are on fire!
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Tommy Bowe going off would be a huge loss - it limits their "Gaelic football" tactic of the hanging kick to the wing.
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That was not smart from Cordero, that little chip kick when you're down to 14.
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Ireland shown enough past few minutes to suggest they're far from out of it.
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Shit :-(
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Penalties are going to cost the Pumas the game. They should never have shown the Irish any chink of light.
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brilliant finish
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The Pumas back three are serious players.
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Loved seeing the Irish get stuffed, can't stand them when it comes to rugby and especially O'Connell who is an arrogant nasty bit of work
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Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.
They weren't Welsh.
I know, they were mostly Brummies. And there's no 'u' in Rorke's Drift.
It does look better with a 'u' in. Don't know why!
Anyway, come on Scotland.
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Come on Scotland!
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Argentina's development is incredible. They've also shown why England must play Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 moving forward.
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Argentina's development is incredible. They've also shown why England must play Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 moving forward.
They've shown what happens when you have natural talent and then play the top teams regularly in competitive rugby.
Unfortunately for the 6N teams, we only get to play the top teams in competitive games every 4 years at the WC.
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It's good of Australia to only play well against us.
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If only Scotland could move the ball faster......
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Foley has been bloody terrible today.
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Southern Hemisphere referee doing his best for the Aussies here.
Nonsense yellow card.
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Congratulations ref.
Just the two tries he's scored for them so far. One more for the hat-trick.
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Harsh sin binning.
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Argentina's development is incredible. They've also shown why England must play Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 moving forward.
Things could develop further as they're getting a team in the Super Rugby next season (with Japan too). This club could basically be a feeder team for the international squad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Super_Rugby_team
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Foley has been fucking woeful.
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I think that's the game.
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I think that's the game.
Not yet
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Yes it's gone however good performance by Scotland as I expected another NZ v Fra!
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Scotland have been great and have shown how desperate England were.
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Dear oh dear
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OMG brilliant another Aussie mistake 32-34
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God almighty that was terrible from Australia.
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Hahaha! Come on! Just 7 mins to hold on now
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Please please please please please please please hang on!
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even the Gods are favouring Scotland as it starts to piss it down.
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Shit.
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Gutted.
:,-(
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unlucky. Threw it away.
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Terrible bad luck. Once again Aussies get lucky.
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Flukey Aussie gits
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We battered them in the seventy minutes that the referee didn't decide to reduce us to fourteen men for no particular reason.
Potentially two tries from knock-ons too.
Every team I want to win is cursed!
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What was the penalty for anyway?
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Bad mistake on the line out, shit shit shit sin binning decision, that's what did it.
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agreed, terrible decision for the sin-binning which made a big difference. I'm normally supportive of the official in rugby but I think a few of them have had a truly terrible tournament this time round.
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I'm really, really gutted. Which has surprised me.
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Joubert on a par with Roland.
Boo fucking hoo.
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6 nations should be good next year. I mean that genuinely.
England/France will be starting from scratch but with a great mass of players, whereas the other teams look more established.
Collectively they've all got to try new things as the southern hemisphere have the clean sweep of semi spots.
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Scotland will still fuck up the Six Nations, they always do.
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Well, one thing the SH doesn't do well is produce good refs. I complain every year about the 6N being polluted by SH refs - what business do they have there?
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Never heard of that. Do Europeans referee Four Nations matches?
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Never heard of that. Do Europeans referee Four Nations matches?
Richie McCaw referees the NZ games.
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I normally think Joubert is alright. I think some of the reactions to the ref from former Scottish pros is well over the top. I get fans getting over emotional, but if you're working for the media you should be able to retain some sense of control
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The yellow card was iffy. Penalty for a late shot on Hogg on 76 hasn't been picked up. Plus the winning penalty.
The Sweaties have plenty to be pissed off about.
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I agree, but those Scots working in the media should have more professionalism. Referring to the referee as a 'numpty' is out of order.
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I'd say it's pretty conservative. They should have been more critical of the cheating bastard.
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Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.
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Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.
He couldn't refer the last penalty apparently as it wasn't foul play or have anything to do with a try
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I ended up supporting a team I don't like so well did the Jocks play. The ref fucked them over.
And so.....Come on you Puma's!
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Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.
He couldn't refer the last penalty apparently as it wasn't foul play or have anything to do with a try
He could've reviewed their tries though. Or just, you know, actually bothered to pay attention to see if there was a forward pass.
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Never heard of that. Do Europeans referee Four Nations matches?
Richie McCaw referees the NZ games.
He looks a bit like Steven Gerrard as well
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Well the best 4 teams are through to the semi finals.
I reckon the saffers and in all probability the Aussies are the 2 teams most likely to overturn NZ.
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By the way, not sure if was shown on TV but the ref absolutely legged it down the tunnel at the final whistle without bothering to shake hands or wait for his touch judges. Chicken shit that he is.
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Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.
He couldn't refer the last penalty apparently as it wasn't foul play or have anything to do with a try
He could've reviewed their tries though. Or just, you know, actually bothered to pay attention to see if there was a forward pass.
In his defence (and trust me that difficult as he's a prize twat) you can only refer for a forward pass if one of the other officials has indicated it's worth checking, otherwise how far back do you go looking for an infringement? I'd be more concerned that forward passes just don't seem to be called on the field anything like often enough, for which you can blame the aussies, their flat backline in the 90s prompted the changes to that law which have made it too open to interpretation and now a lot of officials are scared to make the call on them.
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So, who gets the final ?
It's between Wayne and Nigel for me
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So, who gets the final ?
It's between Wayne and Nigel for me
Go on then, I'll give it a go :)
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Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something
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Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something
Not true apparently. Someone in frustration next to the tunnel dropped a plastic bottle onto the ground - well after Joubert had slunk away.
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Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something
Not true apparently. Someone in frustration next to the tunnel dropped a plastic bottle onto the ground - well after Joubert had slunk away.
Dropped a bottle in frustration? you mean chucked a bottle?
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Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something
Not true apparently. Someone in frustration next to the tunnel dropped a plastic bottle onto the ground - well after Joubert had slunk away.
Dropped a bottle in frustration? you mean chucked a bottle?
Chucked at the ground, if you like. It appears that either the ground was the target or he had very bad aim if he was going for the referee, given he had been inside for a few minutes.
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Brian Moore tweeted that he saw a full pint chucked on to the pitch as well.
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Can't have been one of the Scotland fans if it was full.
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Nice article on the Pumas here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34567873
I think Australia is a game too far for them but look forward to them adding to the pool of quality international teams in the future. ...and Buenos Aires as a an away trip would be fantastic!
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If Australia play like they did yesterday then Argentina will be a step too far for them.
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Rumours that RFU have asked IRFU about the buyout of Joe Schmidt from his contract.
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Fuck that. He presides over their functional up and under shit.
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So the fate of Lancaster is to be decided by Ian, Ian, Ian, Ian and Ben...
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-names-review-panel/
I can accept 4 of them but why the fuck is Ian Ritchie included in a review that, fundamentally, is deciding whether he can continue in his own job (given he's on record as saying England not winning this world cup would be his responsibility). I'd have liked them to get someone a little more 'progressive' involved in the review in his place, maybe even a foreign influence for a bit of balance.
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2 Six Nations, 2 heineken cups, a Pro 12, European Challenge Cup and a Top 14 (albeit as assistant coach). I really don't think England are in any position to get sniffy about a coach with that sort of pedigree. He's got a tiny pool of players to work with in ireland, so it's not surprising that he's gone for a brand of rugby that suits them, I think he'd have the versatility to get any team playing to their particular strengths. I'm not convinced that he'd take the job, mind.
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So the fate of Lancaster is to be decided by Ian, Ian, Ian, Ian and Ben...
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-names-review-panel/
I can accept 4 of them but why the fuck is Ian Ritchie included in a review that, fundamentally, is deciding whether he can continue in his own job (given he's on record as saying England not winning this world cup would be his responsibility). I'd have liked them to get someone a little more 'progressive' involved in the review in his place, maybe even a foreign influence for a bit of balance.
Mcgechan, in spite of his status, is an odd one. He was part of the team who picked Lancaster.
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I still believe that the choice of Lancaster, much like Villa with Sherwood, was the easiest option so they just ran with it. I've said it a few times I think there's a lot of similarities between the problem at Villa and England rugby. There's loads of potential but it needs a manager who can work with the players to bring that out and in both cases they had an initially popular manager whose reputation took such a battering that 'anyone but him' became appealing so a quick and easy replacement was put in and saw promising early results only to completely collapse when the pressure came on.
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Joubert decision wrong say World Rugby, that's his career over then.
Shame the FA don't do rulings on referees following their fuck ups.
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Garces and Barnes have the semi finals, so I expect that means Nigel has the final
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I still believe that the choice of Lancaster, much like Villa with Sherwood, was the easiest option so they just ran with it. I've said it a few times I think there's a lot of similarities between the problem at Villa and England rugby. There's loads of potential but it needs a manager who can work with the players to bring that out and in both cases they had an initially popular manager whose reputation took such a battering that 'anyone but him' became appealing so a quick and easy replacement was put in and saw promising early results only to completely collapse when the pressure came on.
As a matter of interest, who do you think would suit the role? I'm not a big rugby fan, but I can't think of (m)any english coaches that would be equipped for the role. Would you look abroad?
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I'm honestly not sure, I think Mallinder has his eye on the job and he's the best English option. Abroad it gets more difficult, I think I'd wait until after the world cup to make a decision right now.
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So the fate of Lancaster is to be decided by Ian, Ian, Ian, Ian and Ben...
http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-names-review-panel/
I can accept 4 of them but why the fuck is Ian Ritchie included in a review that, fundamentally, is deciding whether he can continue in his own job (given he's on record as saying England not winning this world cup would be his responsibility). I'd have liked them to get someone a little more 'progressive' involved in the review in his place, maybe even a foreign influence for a bit of balance.
Mcgechan, in spite of his status, is an odd one. He was part of the team who picked Lancaster.
I think Earl Warren must be unavailable.
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I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.
I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.
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I agree Paul. It's fine to criticise him a bit for the decision (and what's-his-name in the TMO for the sin-binning, as Joubert initially saw nothing wrong with that), but it has gone a bit mad, conspiracy theories and so on.
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I agree Paul. It's fine to criticise him a bit for the decision (and what's-his-name in the TMO for the sin-binning, as Joubert initially saw nothing wrong with that), but it has gone a bit mad, conspiracy theories and so on.
For all the ex pros blathering on about how the whole thing was disgraceful, and going against the "rugby ethos" is pretty ironic.
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I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.
I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.
He's got away with only being slagged off for one decision. The Aussies scored two tries which could've been knock-ons and he booked a guy for nothing. If that's a "deliberate knock-on" then it would be every single time somebody attempted to intercept the ball but failed to catch cleanly.
The penalty at the end I can forgive. The sheer number of fuck-ups made is shameful.
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The binning for the deliberate knock on was down to the TMO. Joubert was just going to give a scrum, which would have been the correct decision. Yes, the bloke went for the ball with only one hand but you can't always use two. Its not as if he swatted the ball forward just as an opposition player was about to receive a try scoring pass (it looked like there was defensive cover to me).
I was reading earlier in the RWC that TMO's have certain words that they use to tell the ref that he should make a certain decision.
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Not seen the game/decisions but you just know the Ref had a shocker when the most one eyed Aussie TV sports anchors admit they got lucky. Even Mrs Ozvilla did a double take!
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I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.
I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.
He's got away with only being slagged off for one decision. The Aussies scored two tries which could've been knock-ons and he booked a guy for nothing. If that's a "deliberate knock-on" then it would be every single time somebody attempted to intercept the ball but failed to catch cleanly.
The penalty at the end I can forgive. The sheer number of fuck-ups made is shameful.
For the yellow card, I thought it was harsh, I'd have given a penalty but not the yellow card. My reasoning is, if you're trying to catch the ball in that situation you get a hand under it the ball goes up before going to ground, that didn't happen so I don't buy the idea that he was trying to catch it, he was stopping the ball going beyond him and hoping he'd get a chance to catch and counter, that's a different thing. At this point it's a yellow card in every way, however I also think he had his hand out long before the pass was thrown and it was thrown deliberately to 'tempt' him to bat it away and for that reason I'd scale it back to a penalty.
The 2 knock on tries I'm not even sure which you're talking about, I've watched every try and the one I'd call most controversial was the first scottish try which I've seen given as side entry plenty of times because the centre doesn't come in through the 'gate'.
I think the penalty at the end is wrong and the yellow card is harsh (but understandable) so I think the degree of criticism is actually a bit over the top. This is watching it back with fresh eyes though, at the time I thought he'd been horribly biased.
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I think if you look at the player's hand his fingers are facing back towards his own try line so he's trying to scoop and catch the ball. If he was deliberately knocking on, he'd have had an open palm or fingers facing the other way.
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The path of the ball is the main decider though really, when it goes to ground like that you get done for intentional knock-on. As I say, I think it was harsh and a penalty (or maybe a penalty try, not sure how much cover there was behind) would've been sufficient but it's far from the worst mistake I've seen in this world cup.
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I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.
I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.
I agree. How is it being reported elsewhere in the world?
I suspect that a fair chunk of the hysteria is because they want to keep the RWC in the news. ITV will be desperate for ratings and I'd guess there's no shortage of typically underworked experts that are taking advantage of the publicity.
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I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.
I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.
He's got away with only being slagged off for one decision. The Aussies scored two tries which could've been knock-ons and he booked a guy for nothing. If that's a "deliberate knock-on" then it would be every single time somebody attempted to intercept the ball but failed to catch cleanly.
The penalty at the end I can forgive. The sheer number of fuck-ups made is shameful.
The reaction and being hung out to dry by his bosses is still out of order. Thing is with those types of knock ons it's a very fine line, because it's also very easy to stick your hand out and claiming you're trying to catch the ball without having much change of catching it. I didn't agree with that decision, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if it had been the Australian winger who had been sin binned.
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If the boot had been on the other foot would the Scots be complaining?
I haven't heard them moaning about when their prop conned the ref into thinking Australia collapsed the scrum to get penalties which were thus kicked!!!
The TV panel agreed these scrum collapses were not penalties against Australia, the Scottish pundit even laughed and said 'it's not a penalty, but, we'll still take it'
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Excellent piece by Lewis Moody,
I am very surprised how the rugby world has reacted to Craig Joubert. Some of the criticism is crazy. Yes the decision to run of field was a strange one but until we know why let's not jump to conclusions.
Ultimately he Is not allowed to consult the TMO on these matters the rules prevent it. The reality is a Scottish player knocked it on and a Scottish player in front played it. Penalty!
In my opinion Phipps didn't play the ball it mealy bounced of him.
The best case for Scotland could have been a scrum to Australia that is if Joubert had in deed been allowed by the rules to consult the TMO. However I feel the TMO still would have awarded the penalty.
The sad reality is in knock out rugby you have to nail your basics had Scotland who had been outstanding for 78 mins hit the easy throw In the rain and not stretched the jumper on a long throw the game probably would have been there's.
By missing the jumper they put the decision out of there hands.
Let's hold our selves to higher standards in rugby and not jump on the easy band wagon of criticising the ref who like all of us is only human and trying to officiate what was an incredible game of rugby.
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Bloody stupid time to be kicking off the RWC semis.
Saturday's starts at around half time of the Villa game. Sunday's starts during the NFL at Wemberleee.
Its almost as if they didn't take my whereabouts into consideration
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I've lost interest anyway. If they're going to fix it so that Australia make it through they may as well kick off at Melbourne time.
(Still bitter)
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I've lost interest anyway. If they're going to fix it so that Australia make it through they may as well kick off at Melbourne time.
(Still bitter)
You've got it all wrong. When talking football with jocks they revel in their ability to fuck it up. Seriously, if you were in a qualifying group with Andorra, Lapland, and Melchester Rovers you'd find a way to fuck it up. Its shaped you as people. You should be happy and congratulate your brethren from somehow managing to truly show what it is to be Scottish, to always fuck it up no matter how hard you try.
And I mean that with the utmost respect. I thought I'd want you to lose, and I did, until the end seeing the effort that you'd put in and that you might pull it off and I wanted you to do it. Joubert aside all it took was to catch your own line-out. You didn't and the whole Joubert thing should never have even been allowed to have happened.
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The Scottish Rugby Team tend to do okay at World Cups. Only one Group Stage elimination in all the competitions. It's the football team that always find a way to fuck things up.
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God almighty I just saw a rumour linking Gatland with England. No fucking thank you.
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The Scottish Rugby Team tend to do okay at World Cups. Only one Group Stage elimination in all the competitions. It's the football team that always find a way to fuck things up.
Really? How many times have they won it? Record against the tri nations? I guess it depends what your definition of success is, beating Samoa?
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They're not brilliant but that doesn't make them bottlers as Peter W suggested. Beating Samoa, finishing second in the group and being very unlucky not to beat Australia is far better than losing all six games, even against Italy, in the Six Nations.
They've never done badly or lost to an embarassing team in the World Cup but have lost to Italy in the 6N loads of times.
Hence they do well in the World Cup, given the restraints of general shiteness.
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I managed to avoid hearing anything about the RSA v NZ game and was therefore able to watch it as live when I got home. A really enjoyable game to watch, despite the weather conditions. Some if the hits/collisions were immense.
The hits were bad enough at the low level of rugby I played but I dint know how the players get up from some of the collisions at pro level.
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As much as Offside McCaw and his Globetrotters annoy me, just 2mins of the second semi reminded me how much I can't stand the Wallabies. I'll be rooting for the ABs next week.
Pumas seemed to have been caught cold which is a bit of a surprise. Perhaps they still don't feel they belong in the top tier and the occasion has got to them.
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As much as Offside McCaw and his Globetrotters annoy me, just 2mins of the second semi reminded me how much I can't stand the Wallabies. I'll be rooting for the ABs next week.
Pumas seemed to have been caught cold which is a bit of a surprise. Perhaps they still don't feel they belong in the top tier and the occasion has got to them.
Didn't watch it today (forgot when kick off was) but I suspect it was as much that they just ran out of steam. Argentina have put everything they have into this tournament and I think this was just a game too far for them.
Next week I'll be rooting for the aussies because it's worth money to me but aside from that I really couldn't care less now, NZ win and everything will be about how McCaw, Carter, et al are the greatest sportsmen ever, completely ignoring the easy ride they get from refs and if australia win I have to put up with loads of smug bullshit from my aussie friends for however long they think they can get out of it (18months after the ashes down there).
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I don't think Australia will be able to complain too much if New Zealand get an easy ride from the refs.
(Yep. Still bitter.)
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I managed to avoid hearing about today's game as well and watched it when I got back in from the NFL. Good effort by the Argies but the Aussies were comfortably the better team overall. Pocock was superb.
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I managed to avoid hearing about today's game as well and watched it when I got back in from the NFL. Good effort by the Argies but the Aussies were comfortably the better team overall. Pocock was superb.
Speaking of which, how does he do what he does so often, and do it legally? Or are they always clever enough to pile enough bodies in between him and the ref so he can't really see how he does it?
But I really like where Argentina are going with their rugby. Hope they stick with flinging the ball around, and keep on having a monster scrum.
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But I really like where Argentina are going with their rugby. Hope they stick with flinging the ball around, and keep on having a monster scrum.
Their current coach identified that flinging it about was more aligned to their Latin spirit and wants to make it part of their rugby DNA. He's also an ex 7s coach, so I doubt it will change whilst he is in charge.
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I managed to avoid hearing about today's game as well and watched it when I got back in from the NFL. Good effort by the Argies but the Aussies were comfortably the better team overall. Pocock was superb.
Speaking of which, how does he do what he does so often, and do it legally? Or are they always clever enough to pile enough bodies in between him and the ref so he can't really see how he does it?
But I really like where Argentina are going with their rugby. Hope they stick with flinging the ball around, and keep on having a monster scrum.
A lot like Armitage, sharp reactions, good understnading of the game and the tackle area and a low centre of gravity. This is why it frustrates me when people call macaw the best 7 ever, or other such platitudes, he's not even the best in this world cup but he is very good at bending the rules just enough to get an advantage but not get pinged for it. That's not a huge problem, plenty of 7s try it, but I'd love it if just once a ref didn't put up with it. I reckon yellow within the first 15 and red before half time.
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Let it go paul, let it go.
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This is why it frustrates me when people call macaw the best 7 ever, or other such platitudes, he's not even the best in this world cup but he is very good at bending the rules just enough to get an advantage but not get pinged for it. That's not a huge problem, plenty of 7s try it, but I'd love it if just once a ref didn't put up with it. I reckon yellow within the first 15 and red before half time.
The Ref on Saturday pinged McCaw for offside in the first few minutes of the semi
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This is why it frustrates me when people call macaw the best 7 ever, or other such platitudes, he's not even the best in this world cup but he is very good at bending the rules just enough to get an advantage but not get pinged for it. That's not a huge problem, plenty of 7s try it, but I'd love it if just once a ref didn't put up with it. I reckon yellow within the first 15 and red before half time.
The Ref on Saturday pinged McCaw for offside in the first few minutes of the semi
Once. He was the wrong side about 8 times.
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Annoying that the Aussie tactics have been leaked.
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I was out of the house until half time in the 3rd place game but I flicked on for the 2nd half and managed 8 minutes before turning off in anger that some appalling referee decisions.
The Etzebeth try came from SA winning turnover ball and breaking into the corner, which is all well and good until you see that the SA flyhalf had the guy in a headlock to make the tackle, how the fuck did no one spot that?
Then a few minutes later argentina get a scrum in the SA 22 because Habana has hands of teflon, after the scrum half picks it up 2-3 SA tacklers get him and are pushing him back until one of them lifts his legs in the air and then lets go, not a card because it wasn't particularly dangerous in context but it's a definite penalty, instead it's ignored and then the ref gives the pen the other way for coming in at the side.
SA are much better than Argentina so why the fuck do officials feel the need to help them out with shit like this?
I'm normally very positive towards rugby refs (except Wayne Barnes who clearly doesn't like a few players and can't keep that out of his decision making - Hartley and Kvesic are the 2 where it's really obvious) but the standard in this world cup has been awful at times and it makes the rules seem much more complex than they should be for the more casual viewers, along with ensuring NZ have had the easiest ride to the final imaginable.
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Despite me writing last week I hope the Globetrotters win, the more I hear about Pocock the more I want him to be on the winning team.
@Paul_e: for those casual observers like me, the reaction to the ref blowing for a penalty 9/10 is "what was that for?". And I've been watching 5 then 6N for over 20 years, and played Union at school (and League too).
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Hope it's a belter.
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I like Owens refereeing of this already.
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A nation built on thieves are stealing a lot of ball from NZ.
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I think NZ will win this comfortably.
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I like Owens refereeing of this already.
Shame his touch judges don't see the knock ons and forward passes.
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That handling was outstanding.
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I switch over for 5 mins to check football scores and All Blacks move it from 3-3 to 16-3.
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That handling was outstanding.
I went to a talk at my lads school from a former All Black forwards coach a year or so ago. Interestingly in NZ they play touch until the kids are at least 12 or 13 years of age to develop their handling skills. Here we go to contact at about 10 years of age and we wonder why we can't do it.
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Unbelievable stuff.
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Game on 21-17
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Yep great stuff now.
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That drop goal wins the World Cup I think.
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I must say even though I know nothing about this game that drop goal was brilliant.
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Best team deservedly wins the World Cup.
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Australia looked dead on their feet after 45 minutes, fair play they upped their game and ran it close, Carter was magnificent.
No more McCaw, that's a bonus.
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Say what you like about McCaw crossing the line, but he's still a fabulous player. Carter is incredible.
It's like they play a different game to England. I think all English players need to learn to work much much harder.
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Magnificent performance from Dan Carter. Kicking, tackling and generally controlling the game.
Bringing in SBW as a tactical switch was a great move. Two superb offloads in the build up to Nonu's try.
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Great final.
Had everything, even a mistake from Nigel Owens
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And Lancaster has gone by mutual consent ie fired.
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It's the right decision. I'll remember Lancaster as a good man, but ultimately didn't have enough about him to make the key decisions and was too focussed on a physical game in the end.
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Correct decision, twice in a row we've gone with inexperienced coaches and ended up with a team that looked under coached. Lancaster made it worse by being painfully loyal to the people he added to the squad at the start regardless of whether that was justified by performances or there were better options.
If Ritchie goes as well and we get a good chief exec who can look further than the office down the hall for the next head coach then I'll be reasonably happy.
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I really hope that Jake White isn't the man to succeed Lancaster.
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I really hope that Jake White isn't the man to succeed Lancaster.
I've a feeling it will be a coach with a southern hemisphere flavour.
Jake White ticks a lot of boxes.
Would be interesting to see if we can steal Michael Cheika from the Aussies.
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Jake White would be a bit "meh" for me.
I'd go for Wayne Smith.
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I don't like Jake White's style of rugby, unless it's changed.
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Jake White would be a bit "meh" for me.
I'd go for Wayne Smith.
Ruled himself out for 2016.
We'll see if he changes his mind when the RFU dangle the pot of gold ;)
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Whoever is hired needs to get the team playing an exciting, forward thinking style of rugby.
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Jake White would be a bit "meh" for me.
I'd go for Wayne Smith.
Ruled himself out for 2016.
We'll see if he changes his mind when the RFU dangle the pot of gold ;)
Yep, by the sounds of it there could be millions of reasons for him to change his mind. No wonder Jake White wants in.....
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It's got to be Laurie Fisher, he's Southern Hemisphere and has a consistent record over here, consistently mediocre.
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I'm already getting a bit annoyed by White. I'm not sure if it's extracts from the same interview, and if it is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be a soundbite from him every day at the moment.
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I'm already getting a bit annoyed by White. I'm not sure if it's extracts from the same interview, and if it is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be a soundbite from him every day at the moment.
Never trust a man who changes his name.
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I'm already getting a bit annoyed by White. I'm not sure if it's extracts from the same interview, and if it is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be a soundbite from him every day at the moment.
Never trust a man who changes his name.
Too true aev.
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Good first half from Gloucester against Zebre on Friday. Shite second mind.
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RIP Jonah, an absolute megastar.
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RIP Jonah, an absolute megastar.
Remember when he burst onto the scene when I was a kid. Frightening he was. RIP. Glad he got to see the All Black's win the world cup.
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Terrible news but he's known for a long while that it was likely to happen after the kidney transplant failed a few years back. May sound harsh but at least he's had a chance to prepare his family, etc. that's not usual for someone his age. Great winger at his peak who really should have had much more success in his career.
RIP Jonah
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Terrible news but he's known for a long while that it was likely to happen after the kidney transplant failed a few years back. May sound harsh but at least he's had a chance to prepare his family, etc. that's not usual for someone his age. Great winger at his peak who really should have had much more success in his career.
RIP Jonah
40 years old.....still remember him destroying England in the 95 World Cup...RIP Jonah.
UTV
The Doc
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Terrible news but he's known for a long while that it was likely to happen after the kidney transplant failed a few years back. May sound harsh but at least he's had a chance to prepare his family, etc. that's not usual for someone his age. Great winger at his peak who really should have had much more success in his career.
RIP Jonah
40 years old.....still remember him destroying England in the 95 World Cup...RIP Jonah.
UTV
The Doc
yep, think he was diagnosed when he was about 22 and had a kidney transplant in his mid-late 20s which then failed 4-5 years ago.
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The transplant was rejected in 2011 I believe. An absolute monster of a player and I can at least say I got to meet him.
A few years back he was here doing promotional work and my boss, a Kiwi, managed to organise an afternoon on the beer with him (he wasn't drinking).
A very nice chap and incredibly humble.
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He had a slightly odd transplant too. They normally plumb transplanted kidneys in as near to the bladder as possible i.e. lower than they normally reside, but because he wanted to go back to rugby, they put it in higher up, behind the rib cage, to protect it from impacts.
My brother-in-law is a keen snowboarder and had the same procedure when he got a kidney from my wife a few years later.
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Sounds like Eddie Jones is going to be England's new coach. I'd be very happy with that.
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Sounds like Eddie Jones is going to be England's new coach. I'd be very happy with that.
Yeah it's looking pretty likely, he's the right sort of appointment, our last 2 have been rookies and the job has shown to be too big for them so a guy who's had one of the few jobs that is as big already should be a safe bet. On top of that he will encourage us to play to our strengths and get the backs much more involved. I'm happy with this choice.
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Yep agreed, certainly if the choice is between him and White I know who I want.
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I think White was the right appointment 4 years ago but not now.
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Eddie Jones it is then. 4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.
First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
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First thing, can this thread be renamed to 'International Rugby' and kept alive.
More importantly, Eddie Jones it is, confirmed this morning - http://www.englandrugby.com/news/eddie-jones-appointed-england-head-coach/ (http://www.englandrugby.com/news/eddie-jones-appointed-england-head-coach/)
Article in full for non-clickers:
England Rugby has appointed Eddie Jones as Head Coach on a four-year contract, starting in December.
Jones will take charge of England ahead of their opening RBS 6 Nations game against Scotland at Murrayfield on 6 February.
The Australian has had a long and successful coaching career, winning trophies both domestically and internationally, having also spent time coaching in England.
His first major piece of silverware came in 2001 after leading the ACT Brumbies to their first Super 12 title and in doing so becoming the first side outside New Zealand to win the tournament.
Jones took charge of the Wallabies between 2001 and 2005 and delivered both Tri-Nations and Bledisloe Cup success. The national side reached the 2003 Rugby World Cup final on home soil, losing narrowly to England.
After spells with the Queensland Reds and Saracens, the 55 year-old took up a technical advisor role with the Springboks in 2007, helping the South Africans win their second World Cup beating England in the final.
He later became Director of Rugby at Saracens until 2009 and then coached the Japanese club side Suntory Sungoliath.
Jones returned to the international arena in 2011 as Head Coach for Japan where his mother was born. His achievements included arguably the biggest shock in Rugby World Cup history when his side beat South Africa 34-32.
Japan went on to win three of their four pool matches and their performance saw them move into the top ten of the world rankings. Following the tournament he was appointed Head Coach of the South African Super franchise, The Stormers, before agreeing terms with the RFU.
Bright Future
“Firstly my thanks must go to Rob Wagner and everyone at Western Province Rugby for understanding my decision and allowing me to return to the international stage so quickly," said Jones.
"The opportunity to take the reins in, possibly, the world’s most high profile international rugby job doesn’t come along every day however, and I feel fortunate to be given the opportunity.
“I’m now looking forward to working with the RFU and the players to move beyond the disappointment England suffered at the World Cup and hope to build a new team that will reflect the level of talent that exists within the English game. I believe the future is bright for England.”
RFU Chief Executive Ian Ritchie said: “We promised to recruit a coach with proven international experience and we have done that.
"Eddie is a world-class coach, with extensive experience at the highest level with Australia, South Africa and Japan. We believe that the appointment, which was unanimously approved by the RFU Board, is the right one to bring England success in the short, medium and long term.”
Ritchie added: “We are confident Eddie can build on the strong foundations already laid, with this talented group of players largely remaining together through to the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan and beyond. We are grateful to the Stormers for their co-operation in releasing Eddie early from his contract.”
The bold bit is important and I'm really happy that he's starting so soon and will be able to watch a bunch of matches before his 6N squad gets picked, I think there will be a few surprises, top of the list for me will be call ups for Daly, Itoje and Clifford, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Josh Beaumont get a call up before long. I doubt Robshaw will wear 7 again, think we might see a bit of a battle between him and Wood for the 6 shirt with Clifford, Kvesic and maybe Armitage (it wouldn't surprise me if Jones is less strict with that rule) fighting for 7.
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Eddie Jones it is then. 4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.
First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
Borthwick will be in I'm sure and I suspect we'll see a back of a similar pedigree, I wouldn't be massively surprised if it turned out to be Ugo Monye.
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England rugby have a video with Jones on their facebook page, I won't link to it because I don't like adding facebook links and I'm sure much of it will come out in other interviews anyway but the key bits for me:
Wants to keep with English traditions and have a strong set piece and defence but thinks that's not enough to win and we need to add 'pluses' to it by being willing and able to get the ball wide.
Will talk with Ritchie about central contracts, he thinks the relationship between clubs and country is key - I think this is a clear sign that he'll push for the core of the team to be moved to central contracts.
He's said the politically correct answer to the overseas players question, to paraphrase slightly, the rule is in place so if you want to play for England then you know you need to play in England and he only wants players who want to play for England.
He will talk to Robshaw but importantly he said he wants a captain that embodies the spirit of the team, will be an automatic selection and can lead from the front. Will be interesting to see what comes from that but I expect Robshaw to lose it and my money is on Joe Launchbury.
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Eddie Jones it is then. 4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.
First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
If David Campanese (Australia's go to person when the media want a valued unbiased objective view of anything concerning England quite obviously) thinks Eddie Jones is a bad appointment, Eddie must be the man for the job ! Seeing as he has not yet overseen The Stormers play a game, will this be world record compensation for a coach that never actually coached the team getting the compensation ?
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England rugby have a video with Jones on their facebook page, I won't link to it because I don't like adding facebook links and I'm sure much of it will come out in other interviews anyway but the key bits for me:
Wants to keep with English traditions and have a strong set piece and defence but thinks that's not enough to win and we need to add 'pluses' to it by being willing and able to get the ball wide.
Will talk with Ritchie about central contracts, he thinks the relationship between clubs and country is key - I think this is a clear sign that he'll push for the core of the team to be moved to central contracts.
He's said the politically correct answer to the overseas players question, to paraphrase slightly, the rule is in place so if you want to play for England then you know you need to play in England and he only wants players who want to play for England.
He will talk to Robshaw but importantly he said he wants a captain that embodies the spirit of the team, will be an automatic selection and can lead from the front. Will be interesting to see what comes from that but I expect Robshaw to lose it and my money is on Joe Launchbury.
All sounds like good stuff to me, and retaining the English strength of a good set piece and adding flair to it is key. I think Robshaw still can be involved, but only as a 6.
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Eddie Jones it is then. 4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.
First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
If David Campanese (Australia's go to person when the media want a valued unbiased objective view of anything concerning England quite obviously) thinks Eddie Jones is a bad appointment, Eddie must be the man for the job ! Seeing as he has not yet overseen The Stormers play a game, will this be world record compensation for a coach that never actually coached the team getting the compensation ?
Indeed, Campese is as irrelevant in rugby these days as Ian Holloway is in football.
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First thing, can this thread be renamed to 'International Rugby' and kept alive.
You watch, a mod will be along any minute now.......................
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Well, after a few hours...
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thanks
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It's funny the cafe Jones references in Winchester is one I go to quite regularly. I don't think discarding Robshaw completely is great, he should compete at 6.
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It's funny the cafe Jones references in Winchester is one I go to quite regularly. I don't think discarding Robshaw completely is great, he should compete at 6.
I think that's what happen, I'm confident we won't see him at 7 again though, which would be the right decision
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Most of the commentary on Jones states that he tries to identify and maximise the countries natural game. I hope he doesn't interpret our games as simply the 'bulldog' spirit and choose a one dimensional game-plan. That is probably my only worry.
oh another - has he got the stomach/authority to actually try and change the way rugby is run in this country? Is he simply the coach or does he have loftier ambitions?
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Most of the commentary on Jones states that he tries to identify and maximise the countries natural game. I hope he doesn't interpret our games as simply the 'bulldog' spirit and choose a one dimensional game-plan. That is probably my only worry.
oh another - has he got the stomach/authority to actually try and change the way rugby is run in this country? Is he simply the coach or does he have loftier ambitions?
http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/11/4769/eddie-jones-leaves-the-stormers-and-is-appointed-new-england-head-coach
Video at the bottom, one of the questions is about style and he says he'll try to keep the basics we have but add to them.
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Only a couple of weeks after winning the Rugby World Cup New Zealand has had a week of mourning, firstly with the very sad news about Jonah (I've never seen an outpouring of grief like it) and then "The King" - Richie McCaw announcing his retirement. Has been a very strange week over here.
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Only a couple of weeks after winning the Rugby World Cup New Zealand has had a week of mourning, firstly with the very sad news about Jonah (I've never seen an outpouring of grief like it) and then "The King" - Richie McCaw announcing his retirement. Has been a very strange week over here.
Inappropriate to even speculate this, but has there ever been rumours of Lomu and steroid use? It seems an awkward coincidence that the biggest freak of player had kidney failure. A friend who played at a club in NZ (it might have been league though) said that steroid use was rife and that would have been the same era.
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Only a couple of weeks after winning the Rugby World Cup New Zealand has had a week of mourning, firstly with the very sad news about Jonah (I've never seen an outpouring of grief like it) and then "The King" - Richie McCaw announcing his retirement. Has been a very strange week over here.
Inappropriate to even speculate this, but has there ever been rumours of Lomu and steroid use? It seems an awkward coincidence that the biggest freak of player had kidney failure. A friend who played at a club in NZ (it might have been league though) said that steroid use was rife and that would have been the same era.
A valid question although there have been issues with steroid abuse in League and players have been banned here and Australia, I have never heard of any abuse in Rugby Union. Jonah was a top athlete at school in a few disciplines and was big when he was at school. I think he was just what people called him, a freak of nature.
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Inappropriate to even speculate this, but has there ever been rumours of Lomu and steroid use? It seems an awkward coincidence that the biggest freak of player had kidney failure. A friend who played at a club in NZ (it might have been league though) said that steroid use was rife and that would have been the same era.
Given they often prescribe steroids to children with nephrotic syndrome, whether there's any truth in it or not, I would consider it unlikely that there's a causal link.
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Any danger the rugby threads can be merged?
There's not much traffic and I reckon the handful of posters - due to their public school education etc etc - are intelligent enough to fathom whether we're talking about international or domestic rugby. Personally I'd prefer one thread to always be near the top of the Sports Area section rather than two lurking in mid-table.
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Tarquin is that you? You still owe me 50p from prep school.
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Tarquin is that you? You still owe me 50p from prep school.
Ha!
See my bait worked, a rugby post appears and one of a handful of posters responds (with abuse on this occasion). If there were more posts on the same thread then it would generate more traffic. Or something like that.
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I've been trying not to post too often, the rugby threads feel a bit a private chat for me and Paul Winch at times.
oh, and for the record, I'm state comp all the way, living in Northampton for 2 1/2 years (they won the Heineken cup whilst I was there) both got me into the sport and picked a team for me, I also have a soft spot for Glaws because 2 of my best friends whilst I was there were huge fans and drove over for every home match so I watched them as often as I watched saints. I understandably also have an irrational dislike for everything Leicester, a dislike which was shockingly increased when Cockerill took over because I can't think of a bigger tosser in the entire sport (and many other sports besides, the city had the dubious honour of having the 2 most odious sports managers in the country last season).
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Another state comp interloper here.
Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...
And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.
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Another state comp interloper here.
Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...
And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.
I've long been of the opinion that the commentators are scared to be too honest about England, the only one who's ever really said it as I see it is Guscott (who I've met a few times, smart guy and knows the game well but is a right smug arse with it). Even after a truly dire world cup there were some defending him, it's really odd.
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Another state comp interloper here.
Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...
And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.
I've long been of the opinion that the commentators are scared to be too honest about England, the only one who's ever really said it as I see it is Guscott (who I've met a few times, smart guy and knows the game well but is a right smug arse with it). Even after a truly dire world cup there were some defending him, it's really odd.
Brian Moore? Maybe he limits his criticism to the team rather than the infrastructure but generally speaks his mind in my opinion.
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Wasn't a thrombosis that killed Lomu?
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Another state comp interloper here.
Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...
And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.
I've long been of the opinion that the commentators are scared to be too honest about England, the only one who's ever really said it as I see it is Guscott (who I've met a few times, smart guy and knows the game well but is a right smug arse with it). Even after a truly dire world cup there were some defending him, it's really odd.
Brian Moore? Maybe he limits his criticism to the team rather than the infrastructure but generally speaks his mind in my opinion.
Spot on - and easy to prove - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11997777/Dont-blame-RFU-boss-Ian-Ritchie-for-Stuart-Lancasters-failings-as-England-coach.html
So a guy who stated that he was ultimately responsible for the performance of team shouldn't go because he has other responsibilities that he's doing well with? The simple scrutiny is how much would it have been worth to English rugby both financially and through exposure, to get to a semi-final or better in our home world cup?
Wasn't a thrombosis that killed Lomu?
Yes, Thrombosis caused by his nephrotic syndrome which led to a heart attack, that's the reports I've read at least, all comes back to the kidney problems though, the condition was clearly serious when they gave him a transplant but once that was rejected it was always going to be a case of when and not if unfortunately. the problem with nephrotic syndrome is that it's often a secondary condition and treating the primary problem resolves it so you get lots of irrelevant info on a web search, when it's the primary condition it's much more difficult to do anything about.
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Interesting, he criticises people for wanting rid of Andrew/Richie without knowing the facts and then states:
"His role includes the far wider responsibility for the RFU’s financial well-being, grassroots rugby and many other things. Those facets of English rugby have been handled properly."
Any ideas what the 'handled properly' bit is based on? Have the coaching/playing numbers improved dramatically?
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All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.
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All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.
The top division is strong, outside that the game is really no better than it was in the first years after professionalisation.
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All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.
The top division is strong, outside that the game is really no better than it was in the first years after professionalisation.
I must admit whenever I see my local club training sessions that I am impressed by the professionalism.
When the youth are training I reckon there's about 5 lads to each coach. Furthermore friends who help/coach the kids have all undertaken courses so that there is a coherent thread to what they're teaching.
This is infinitely better than my experiences playing football as a nipper and much better that when I played rugby from 15-18. I'm unsure whether the improvement has any thing to do with Andrew or Richie though.
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All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.
The top division is strong, outside that the game is really no better than it was in the first years after professionalisation.
I must admit whenever I see my local club training sessions that I am impressed by the professionalism.
When the youth are training I reckon there's about 5 lads to each coach. Furthermore friends who help/coach the kids have all undertaken courses so that there is a coherent thread to what they're teaching.
This is infinitely better than my experiences playing football as a nipper and much better that when I played rugby from 15-18. I'm unsure whether the improvement has any thing to do with Andrew or Richie though.
Sorry I was rushing a little. What I mean by that is that the money which has gone into club rugby at lower levels hasn't really raised the standards at first team level as you'd expect.
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Dylan Hartlley, from suspended for the RWC 2015 to England captain so rumour has it.
Certainly an interesting choice if true.
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Well first thing he clearly should have been at the world cup, he's the only international class hooker we have and he was hugely missed in the scrum and lineout.
That ticks the first box of being the best player available in his position.
He's young enough to play in 2019 so that ticks the 2nd box.
He's played 66 games for England and has captained a title winning side domestically.
He will challenge a referee if he thinks they're being unfair (as opposed to apologising to them like Robshaw).
The 54 weeks of bans is the problem but even then some of it is very harsh.
26 weeks for eye-gouging - can't defend this but it was a long time ago now (2007) and is nearly half of the ban time on it's own. Over 18 weeks is considered 'high-end' for this.
8 weeks for biting Ferris' finger because he was fish-hooking him out of a ruck, I'm not condoning biting but if someone jams 2 fingers into your mouth to pull you out of a ruck you've got mitigating circumstances, 8 weeks was far too long.
2 weeks for punching Rory Best I can agree with.
11 weeks for calling Barnes a cheat when he gave an incredibly harsh penalty, given how Barnes had been in the game I can understand the frustration but he needed to keep a hold on it until halftime and then have it raised via the proper channels.
3 weeks for 'elbowing' Matt Smith - again the ban is about fair but calling it elbowing is .
4 weeks for 'headbutting' Jamie George - The harshest of the lot, anyone else on that pitch and they get a slap on wrist, Hartley gets a 4 week ban and loses his world cup place.
I honestly think you could take 15-20 weeks away from that lot and they'd be more fitting for what he'd done, the Ferris and George bans were totally inappropriate for the offence.
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I saw Stuart Lancaster getting off the tub this morning. That is all.
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Off the tub?
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to be fair a guy who thinks Chris Robshaw is an international quality open-side might well think that a bathtub is a reasonable mode of transport so I'm not questioning it.
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Gustard is the defensive coach then. Could be a very good appointment.
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Gustard is a superb appointment, I hate sarries but to their credit they're superbly well organised in defence. If we can get a backs coach with a rep for creating sides which break the line in first and second phase then I think we'll quickly become the team that we can be.
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Would you keep Robshaw at 6?
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Would you keep Robshaw at 6?
I'd let him compete for the shirt, we've got a lot of strength at 6 so I don't think anyone can be guaranteed a spot (Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Gibson off the top of my head).
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Gustard is a superb appointment, I hate sarries but to their credit they're superbly well organised in defence. If we can get a backs coach with a rep for creating sides which break the line in first and second phase then I think we'll quickly become the team that we can be.
He's looking at Alex King.
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I agree on Robshaw, he should be in with a shout at 6.
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Gustard is a superb appointment, I hate sarries but to their credit they're superbly well organised in defence. If we can get a backs coach with a rep for creating sides which break the line in first and second phase then I think we'll quickly become the team that we can be.
He's looking at Alex King.
I'm not sure I like that idea. I'm a saints fan and I don't think King has got them playing in a style that would suit the attacking options England have. Based on this season I'd be keeping a very close eye on Lee Blackett at Wasps, their backs look superb. Darren Edwards at Bath is the other option. As above I want someone who has teams creating line-breaks in first phase, that's the bit where good coaching really shows.
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Watching Saints now, and always try to watch when they're on TV, and I agree with that. The play is too forwards/strength orientated. If the forwards don't dominate then we struggle. JJ (the new fly half, who's name I cannot remember) may change that over time, but nothing suggest it is a blueprint England should copy.
I read somewhere that Jones wants to have control of the attacking play, with a lesser coach to support him.
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Watching Saints now, and always try to watch when they're on TV, and I agree with that. The play is too forwards/strength orientated. If the forwards don't dominate then we struggle. JJ (the new fly half, who's name I cannot remember) may change that over time, but nothing suggest it is a blueprint England should copy.
I read somewhere that Jones wants to have control of the attacking play, with a lesser coach to support him.
JJ Hanrahan is a good signing and might give us something more to go with and Burrell will always run dangerous lines and has a fantastic offload but the backline is far too static and they make themselves easy targets all too often. It's a shame because a side with North, Foden, Elliott, K. Pisi and Tuala as the wide options should be seriously dangerous but too many times it comes back to the forwards punching holes at the breakdown and creating broken field so those outside backs have space. It can be very effective but an aggressive defence can close them down, hence they struggle against sides like Racing and Sarries.
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The draw with Racing summed up the current Saints team and for that matter England team. They were the better team in the 2nd half and won countless turnovers but once won, and with the play was broken, they chose to take the ball into contact and the safety of their routines. It's all too pre-meditated in my opinion and a few more maverick players need to be afforded the luxury of a few mistakes.
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Jonny May looks like he's out for the 6N, with Brookes and Slade already missing that's 3 of my 22 missing already, hope we have a bit more luck over the next few weeks.
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Elliot Daly has stepped up a bit so there's a potential replacement for Slade.
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Sounds like Gatland is going to be the Lions coach again, that's our chances gone.
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Squad:
Forwards
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
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What's happened to Wade? Whose the captain?
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Goode being there makes me sad. I'm glad to see Ashton back involved though he's earned it. Tom Wood completely being dropped is a surprise, I reckon is Itoje against Robshaw for number 6 then.
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To avoid making it a mess I'm posting my thoughts seperately so...
The disclaimer here is that he could only make 11 replacements so this was always likely to be a bit of a muddle.
The Good:
Clifford, Hill, Itoje, Kvesic, Daly, Devoto - All good additions
The Bad:
No Cips, no Waller, Goode, Haskell and Care all retained
I'm ok with that squad, it's a touch harsh on Wood and Morgan who weren't the problem in the back row and I'm surprised that Tom Youngs has been dropped out completely.
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What's happened to Wade? Whose the captain?
Wade is out until near the end of the tournament so no shock he's not involved, captain isn't named yet but the safe money is on Hartley.
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Goode being there makes me sad. I'm glad to see Ashton back involved though he's earned it. Tom Wood completely being dropped is a surprise, I reckon is Itoje against Robshaw for number 6 then.
I'd go with Clifford, Kvesic, Billy with Beaumont on the bench for the first game, pace and power and a bit of mongrel. I'd have Itoje on the bench behind Lawes and Launchbury. With Mako and Hill the likely prop replacements and George to come on at Hooker that's a lot of pace and power off the bench. I'd have liked Simpson and Cips as well to carry that injection of pace right out into the backs (I'd go with Devoto and Daly in the centre and JJ as the final sub) but Care and Farrell are ok as impact options.
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The squad announcement comes with a short interview with Jones here - http://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-openside-centres-and-captaincy/
The key bit for me is:
Jones also addressed the issue of what he saw as the role of an openside in international rugby. “Their primary job at first phase in attack is to ensure we win quick ball.
“So, they need very good clean out skills. Then conversely on the opposition ball they need to ensure they slow that ball down.”
It's good to see the England coach raising the same concerns I have and for that is a clear message that Robshaw (as he was) is not the 7 he wants. I've always felt like I'm being a bit cruel to him to constantly complain about the openside as the key issue in the pack but it really is a specialist job and it's weird that the RFU, collectively, seemed to forget that for a long time.
It's also nice to hear him talk about what he wants at 12, which is basically the final nail in the coffin for Barritt's international career. He name dropped Slade as what he sees as a proper 12 which again fits nicely with my view on how we need to play, I think this time next year we'll be looking at a very different England team and I pretty excited by the whole thing.
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Bit pissed off that Kvesic only gets in due to injury to others. He has been a credible starter for England at 7 for three years now.
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Bit pissed off that Kvesic only gets in due to injury to others. He has been a credible starter for England at 7 for three years now.
Exactly, it's ridiculous. Also May wouldn't have been in the squad either. And no Morgan.
Why is Gloucester forever a graveyard for international careers?
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I can sort of understand the change with Morgan, him and Billy and too similar so they wanted someone a bit different, whoever got that 2nd '8' berth is only keeping it warm for a year anyway, Nathan Hughes will be in the squad as soon as he can be added, unless his game completely abandons him.
May is a tough one to know what they intended, the injury cover call ups are all, except Slade, covering people who may be back in during the 6N whereas May definitely won't be so it might well mean nothing that he's been 'dropped'.
Kvesic I agree, I find it very strange that his spot is only as cover when the others are 6s. Maybe he sees Clifford as a viable 7, he's certainly the only 1 I'd trust to cover the entire back row.
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Must admit to not being quite keyed in with what's going on, but if Jones doesn't see May in his plans then, to borrow from Dr House, he's an idiot.
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I'm quite glad to see Ashton back.
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Must admit to not being quite keyed in with what's going on, but if Jones doesn't see May in his plans then, to borrow from Dr House, he's an idiot.
As I say, lets see what happens in the summer when he gets to fully overhaul the squad rather than being restricted (central contracts mean he can't just pick whatever squad he wants, he had to select most of the world cup squad). I like May, he's a fantastic winger but it is an area where we have a lot of strength so let's give Yarde and Ashton a chance to show they should be there.
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I'd worry about any professional sportsman who, for whatever reason, wants a year out of the game as if they're on a gap year. Even if he comes back I suspect his edge, legs, mind, whatever, will be gone. I'm not sure I'd want him back either. Obviously I'm talking about international level as I have no interest in club rugby - unless he fancies it at Moseley.
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Has Ashton found a rich new seam of form then, or learnt some new tricks? Last matches he'd played in for England he looked like a very poor man's Ben Cohen, a finisher nothig more and not able to create chances himself.
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England played the wrong type of game for Ashton, but yes he's scored a lot of tries and got a lot better under the high ball. I think with Ford he'd be excellent.
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England played the wrong type of game for Ashton, but yes he's scored a lot of tries and got a lot better under the high ball. I think with Ford he'd be excellent.
Pretty much this, he's worked on his defence a lot with the guy who is now England defence coach, so they must be confident that he's ok on that side. In attack he's always been good enough.
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England played the wrong type of game for Ashton, but yes he's scored a lot of tries and got a lot better under the high ball. I think with Ford he'd be excellent.
Pretty much this, he's worked on his defence a lot with the guy who is now England defence coach, so they must be confident that he's ok on that side. In attack he's always been good enough.
Looks like this might be academic, seems pretty certain that he's going to be on the end of a significant ban, there are videos about but pulling someone out of a maul by their face just isn't going to end well, 8-12 weeks I reckon.
So Roko back in I'd guess? I'd go a bit left-field and call up Lewington but I don't think Jones is ready to be that brave.
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It's 12 weeks minimum isn't it? it's annoying really, as I'd like to see him given the chance.
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It's 12 weeks minimum isn't it? it's annoying really, as I'd like to see him given the chance.
Technically yes but with the option to reduce up to a 3rd bad on reputation, Given Ashton hasn't really ever done anything nasty I'd suspect it'll be dropped by a few weeks. The key thing is, having watched a few videos of it I can't see how he won't get banned, I don't think there's any malicious intent there but it's horribly clumsy given the current reffing of using the head or neck to clear someone out.
about 21-22 seconds in you see it real time, ashton wearing 14 on Marshall with the cap on just as Ulster try to bundle it into touch, I just can't see him getting away with it.
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As expected Ashton out of the 6 Nations then, disappointing.
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10 weeks, so pretty much exactly what i predicted, no surprise. Was a very stupid thing to do so close to the tournament.
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Roko called up as replacement for Ashton, probably the right call.
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Hartley is probably the right call. I could only think of two players I'd absolutely certainly start and they're Hartley and Launchbury. Brown would come close to that, but I think on balance Hartley is probably the right choice.
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Hartley is probably the right call. I could only think of two players I'd absolutely certainly start and they're Hartley and Launchbury. Brown would come close to that, but I think on balance Hartley is probably the right choice.
Brown should never be anywhere near the captaincy even without the massive flaws to his game that I see (but which many others don't) fullbacks are a rubbish choice for the job and on top of that he's not the sharpest of tools.
Launchbury, in my opinion, is a few years away from being ready but he's the right choice longer term. I think Slade will become a leader in the team as well and Hill looks like he has everything you'd want in a captain as well but Hartley for a couple of years and then go from there seems obvious.
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Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting Brown should be captain, I meant that he was one of only three players I could fairly catergorically say will start.
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I think Jones would be doing everyone a favour if the captaincy was awarded for the next set of internationals (6-Nations / Autumn Internationals / 6 Nations etc), then it would not be a shock/demotion if Launchbury was appointed this time next year. It also avoids the Robshaw situation where a player cannot be dropped because he is captain.
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To be fair I think he has basically said that. He said the captain will be the player who he deems to be the best at that time.
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To be fair I think he has basically said that. He said the captain will be the player who he deems to be the best at that time.
Good. I cannot see how that can be a bad thing.
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I agree, your captain should always be one of your best players.
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Every team needs a dog and Dylan is a rabid dog.
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Every team needs a dog and Dylan is a rabid dog.
He's nothing like as rabid as he's made out to be but his reputation goes against him, as I've said before he's had 1 major ban when he was far too hot-headed and since then he's had 1 reasonable ban for punching and then 4 bans that were to the player not the offence. The 'headbutt' that kept him out of the world cup is a good example, I honestly think that any other player in league would've got away with that, it was something of nothing and it happened because Lancaster didn't like him so the rfu did him a favour.
The ban for 'verbal abuse' was pathetic as well, take the context, the player asks if they can kick it on the full, he mumbles an answer that they misinterpret as confirmation and then he gives a scrum to Leicester and it collapses with neither front row clearly at fault. The sensible decision is to reset it, giving a penalty right in front of the posts was a terrible decision. This isn't defending calling him a cheat, but it really isn't worthy of an 11 week ban, I think he knows full well that he has a clear bias towards tigers and the comment cut a bit close to the truth.
Finally getting a ban for biting a finger when said finger is being used to fishhook you out of a ruck is ok but only if the other guy is banned for at least as long, giving Ferris 4 weeks and then removing 2 because of good character when you give Hartley 8 and no reduction is just plain wrong.
None of this is to condone any of his offences, it's purely to point out that's he's been given a particularly shitty end of the stick since Lancaster came in (5 of the 6 bans have come since Lancaster came in and said rather early on that he wanted calm heads). I'm not saying that's the reason but given the number of times bans have worked to see players back just in time for internationals to see the same player get 2 bans that rule him out of international events is curious.
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Jones has said that Robshaw is 'easily the best 6' in England, so he's clearly going to start.
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Jones has said that Robshaw is 'easily the best 6' in England, so he's clearly going to start.
To be honest I don't think he's the best 6 at quins (Jack Clifford has been brilliant for them for the last year or so and the extra pace and power he brings would be very useful) let alone in England but I don't think he'd be a bad choice and he will be another experienced head in an inexperienced team so I can see the sense in it.
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So the matchday squad is pretty much announced then:
Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).
Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).
The 10 players released back to their clubs:
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).
I make that to be:
Marler; Hartley; Cole
Launchbury; Kruis/Lawes*
Robshaw; Billy V; Haskell
Youngs; Ford
Nowell; Devoto; JJ; Watson
Brown
Subs
Mako V; George; Hill; Kruis/Lawes*; Clifford; Care; Farrell; Goode
*i don't think anyone will be able to pick between this pair until the last minute
I'm mostly happy with that other than:
Still no real 7 in the team, Haskell has played there a fair bit but he's a meathead and still doesn't offer enough at the breakdown.
Keeping Goode and sending Daly back is plain wrong, Goode is deceptively slow and will be caught out at international level, his incompetence on the wing against France ranks very highly on my list of worst performances I've ever seen for England (it's right up there with Tait getting mullered against Wales and Noon wearing the shit).
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I'm pretty disappointed to see Daly, Kvesic and Itoje sent back.
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I'm pretty disappointed to see Daly, Kvesic and Itoje sent back.
Itoje makes sense, he's clear 4th choice right now even though he will be ahead of all of them in a few years. The other 2 I just don't see the sense of.
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I reckon we'll see Farrell start at 12.
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I hope not, he's not good enough to play there and not only would it nullify the backs it would also be a vote of no confidence in Ford as a goal kicker. I'd be very surprised if the 15 isn't what I've posted (I'm still not making a call on Kruis/Lawes though, my heart says Lawes because he's been brilliant for England in the past and is just hitting form again but Kruis is the form lock in the league this season so he's a good poster boy for the 'picked on form' argument.
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I hope not too, but just a feeling.
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I reckon we'll see Farrell start at 12.
I agree, or at least that is what most the press are suggesting.
Daly has been great this year, however I think there is some merit is keeping young players down for as long as sensible. I know that sounds counter intuitive but - in football - players are promoted too early for England and I think that often affects their hunger and enthusiasm to learn more moving forward. If you keep the first cap tantalisingly out of reach then the players will be determined to make small improvements to bridge the gap. That attitude then becomes their natural work ethic.
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I'm curious to see where he sees Slade once he's fit, because he has to play and Jones has already said he sees Tuilagi as 'world class' and as a 12. It'll be interesting to see where people fit.
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I'm curious to see where he sees Slade once he's fit, because he has to play and Jones has already said he sees Tuilagi as 'world class' and as a 12. It'll be interesting to see where people fit.
I disagree with him on Tuilagi, if he can shave off the rough edges (which have always been there but are even clearer after the couple of years he's had) he can be a world class 13, at 12 I'd prefer someone who is better at bringing other players into the game.
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Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?
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Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?
ignoring the obvious clickbait this year is a really tough call. A lot of the french players are struggling for form, Ireland look much weaker than they have been, the Welsh have even worse form problems than France, the Italians who've stalled a bit, Scotland are comfortably the most improved side (but given they had been challenging for the spoon with Italy that was much needed) and England are trying to change style following an awful world cup which is always a risk.
With all that I'd honestly say this is the closest 6N (on paper) for years and it should make for some fascinating ties with the first weekend likely to be the best of the lot, Italy are normally at their best vs France and always come out of the blocks fast so that has huge upset potential, then you have England looking to dominate up front and create opportunities for the backs against a Scottish side who want to keep the ball in the loose and counter attack and then Sunday is a kick out between 2 'up and under' traditional NH teams.
The wild card is the club performances, Racing aside the English teams have bossed both competitions so you'd think there will a lot of confidence in the group that they've spent 6 months knocking the world cup out of their collective systems by beating the best the celtic and french leagues have to offer with a fair amount of regularity. If Jones can build that into something positive England could be really dangerous this year.
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I've genuinely got not idea who's going to win, going to be very interesting.
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Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?
I've been in Scotland the past few days, this is a pretty common theme amongst the deluded skirt wearing traitors. Based on 1 good game at the RWC they think they're the surprise package of 2016. I'm sure they'll give England a good game first up, they're a bit like the noses, it's their final and what with Murrayfield no longer being packed out with schoolchildren with free tickets because their Union couldnt give tickets away 2 years ago to those of a drinking age, I expect it will be an intimidating afternoon for England but expect us to win by 8.
And no, I have no idea who'll win it but it won't be Scotland.
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I'm interested to see how we (England) get on. I'm a little disappointed with some of the decisions made, but before I see the team play it's hard to judge. I just want Jones to get us back to having a forward pack that dominates, but with the cutting edge in the backs.
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Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?
Georgia
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Sadly I really don't expect Scotland to do well. I remember doing well against New Zealand and comfortably beating Argentina in the Autumn tests, another time when we'd beaten Australia home and away, in each case we went into the Six Nations full of confidence and fucked it up good and proper. I'd be delighted with three wins. One or zero is still more likely.
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Sadly I really don't expect Scotland to do well. I remember doing well against New Zealand and comfortably beating Argentina in the Autumn tests, another time when we'd beaten Australia home and away, in each case we went into the Six Nations full of confidence and fucked it up good and proper. I'd be delighted with three wins. One or zero is still more likely.
You could say the same for England to be fair, it's wide open, I suspect Wales and Ireland will be there or there a outs come the final weekend sadly.
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I hope Wales do badly. They seem the mouthiest when their team does well.
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Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?
Georgia
Did you have them on your mind?
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Tuilagi is ridiculously injury prone.
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Indeed, I really think he needs to leave Leicester, there's something not right and a clean start would've been best for everyone. Some of his injury problems have been down to technical flaws that were just allowed to carry on, Wilkinson had a similar issue and missed a big chunk of what should have been the best part of his career because of it and I can see Manu going the same way.
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I think England will win the 6 nations pretty comfortably. Before the World Cup we always seemed to be nearly there and put in some great performances but always the odd poor one. I just fancy that the World Cup will have galvanised a team that just want to get out there and right a few wrongs. I think it'll be a clean sweep.
1. England
2. France
3. Wales
4. Scotland
5. Ireland
6. Italy
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I think England will win the 6 nations pretty comfortably. Before the World Cup we always seemed to be nearly there and put in some great performances but always the odd poor one. I just fancy that the World Cup will have galvanised a team that just want to get out there and right a few wrongs. I think it'll be a clean sweep.
1. England
2. France
3. Wales
4. Scotland
5. Ireland
6. Italy
That must be based on sentiment and not any factual evidence, we have a new coach and captain who is prone to being banned, we went out in the World Cup group stages and haven't done a grand slam for ages, and yet with all these variables you think this is the year?
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I do. We should have won it quite a few times over the last few seasons and I think Eddie jones will have given them the edge they need on top of the performances thet will want t put in after last year.
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I really want Jones to be the coach I hoped for but Farrell at 12 isn't a great start and for all the talk of wanting a proper 7 he's gone with Haskell and he's pretty much guaranteed to get 80minutes. We'll see but I don't think we'll see quite the level of expansive play we were hoping for. I'm hoping that he's done this because scotland play a similar way and they're further along than us so he's being a little more pragmatic. I really hope we see a proper 12 and a proper 7 later on though.
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I'm hoping he's just starting with a stable approach and will build on it. Farrell at 12 I can't see being a long term option, or Haskell at 7.
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In fairness though he has said that Itoje and Daly will feature in the 6 Nations, so hopefully this is just a start.
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I'm not impressed. Swapping the numbers on Robshaw and Haskell's backs isn't going to stop us getting killed at the breakdown, and much as I like Farrell, I don't see him as an international class 12.
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I'm not impressed. Swapping the numbers on Robshaw and Haskell's backs isn't going to stop us getting killed at the breakdown, and much as I like Farrell, I don't see him as an international class 12.
Exactly, we need a proper 7, if that means a tails between their legs trip to toulon then so be it. Otherwise look at Kvesic and maybe start enquiring as to the availability of Teimana Harrison. They're the 2 proper 7s in English rugby that might be possible (Harrison is a New Zealander but has an English father and has stated he'd prefer to represent England, maybe only to get away from New Zealand where he was involved in a fatal accident a few years back, hence a conversation would be needed).
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Fucking Farrell and Haskell? Dear me.
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You avoiding the score in the pub tomorrow or am I free to tell you about all of Scotland's tries?
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You avoiding the score in the pub tomorrow or am I free to tell you about all of Scotland's tries?
At least it won't take you long... :P
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16-24
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You avoiding the score in the pub tomorrow or am I free to tell you about all of Scotland's tries?
At least it won't take you long... :P
Why you!
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Up an Alp watching France losing to Italy
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haven't seen any of it but it's just as close as I suspected, I think this will be the best 6N we've had for years.
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France were lucky there. Italy didn't appear to have a drop kicker do set up their Number 8 to have a go and he made a right pigs ear of it.
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That's Italy's biggest problem, they half expect Parisse to be the one who sorts it out for them so all eyes go to him regardless of whether they should or not.
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Sorry Cd but that is utterly pathetic defending for Kruis to score.
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Haskell is showing just how poor he is at securing the ball here, he is an even worse 7 than Robshaw. In the backs Farrell is providing nothing and Care is a poor scrum half as well.
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Poor last 15 minutes there we're being outplayed at the breakdown.
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That was a poor quality half from both sides
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yep, disappointing performance so far, we're too slow at the breakdown, too often the 2nd man to get there is hanging back rather than making sure we win it clean.
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Far too slow to breakdown.
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Lovely try there.
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Too slow there.
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Mako has had a really positive impact.
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Mike Brown kicks it out on the full under no pressure, exactly why I don't think he's good enough, he just goes braindead at times.
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Second half was much better, they were sharper and more alert. Need a lot of work, but defence showed a lot of development.
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Great start today then we slowly but surely got dragged down to Scotland's real level before waking up and really dominating the set pieces.
I see Murrayfield was packed again, with kids, hence the booing of penalties and conversions, if your Union needs to give tickets away then at least tell the kids to keep quiet.
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Agree like you said we started well, then tailed off and then got control again. Major positives for me were Billy, Mako and the defence as a team. The negative side was the breakdown and linked to that indiscipline. But overall a win away at a developing Scotland side was pleasing. Jones just needs to add those younger players and start integrating them.
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What's wrong with booing set pieces?It's not snooker.
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Respect. You know like all the big digital signs say all around the stadium Respect The Kicker whenever there's a penalty or conversion attempt.
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Great start today then we slowly but surely got dragged down to Scotland's real level before waking up and really dominating the set pieces.
I see Murrayfield was packed again, with kids, hence the booing of penalties and conversions, if your Union needs to give tickets away then at least tell the kids to keep quiet.
Was talking to my mate about the boos and whistles. I've noticed over the past few years it's been creeping into the game more.
Whether it's just the England games but the Scots, Irish and Welsh are doing it more, the French and Italians are no better, either.
By far the worse, though, are Argentina.
As for the game.
Pretty scrappy, but, it went pretty much as I expected.
Scotland aren't a bad team these days, and they've come off a good world cup.
I didn't think Scotland really looked like scoring a try as the English defense was very good.
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I think the 'dragged down to their real level' is a bit harsh. I think they've got a good pack focused on winning quick ball and stopping the opposition from doing the same. I also think they've got a good set of outside backs who are all capable of breaking the line and scoring tries. The problem is that 9, 10, 12 and 13 are weak for them, which means they struggle to control the tempo and field position. It also means that if you set up to screen the chip kick and deal with crash ball through the 10-12 channel they're not going to be much of a threat in open play, which is why they just don't score many tries. Laidlaw in particular is a poor scrum-half who happens to be a good kicker and he therefore gets game time because Finn Russell is the best 10 they have and his kicking from the tee is abysmal.
when the game 'died' for about half an hour in the middle it was because they were competing at the breakdown and slowing the ball whilst Haskell stood waiting at first receiver instead of doing his job. A few people starter covering for him early in the 2ndf half and we started to get some control and then when Clifford came on and Haskell moved across we got back on top and looked comfortable. When you consider that Kvesic came on and dominated the game on Friday (against a very good 7 in Louw) it's very hard to justify Haskell starting there again.
Youngs made a difference as well, Care just isn't good enough to start for England (and shouldn't be in the squad ahead of Simpson and Chudley who are clearly the form 9s in the league).
Aside from that I thought Nowell and Watson were superb, add May, Yarde and Wade and we've got one hell of a set of wingers to choose from, and once we've got them all fit we've got a loot of quality in the centres as well. By all accounts Burrell was excellent again yesterday so I think he'll come back into the mix before long.
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Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty. Well done Wales, Jocks take note.
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Great game today (as a neutral and a bit of a purist).
This weekend turned out almost to script as I called it earlier in the thread, Italy gave France a real fright and put in a solid performance, England had enough quality to fight off a tough breakdown centred performance from the scots and there was fuck all between the irish and welsh. I'll stick with my prediction that this is going to be a fantastic 6N.
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Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty. Well done Wales, Jocks take note.
I noticed that, too, but as it was in Ireland I'm not surprised.
There were a few shouts/whistles when Priestland was kicking to put Wales ahead, though. Granted, it only sounded like 15 to 20 people.
I feel, however, it may only be the England games that this trend will happen.
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Great game today (as a neutral and a bit of a purist).
This weekend turned out almost to script as I called it earlier in the thread, Italy gave France a real fright and put in a solid performance, England had enough quality to fight off a tough breakdown centred performance from the scots and there was fuck all between the irish and welsh. I'll stick with my prediction that this is going to be a fantastic 6N.
Yes, but, it didn't surprise me when I realised how young that French team was. The oldest player in the starting XV was 30. A couple of them looked like school leavers!!
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It'll be tough for the Irish with a 6 day turnaround before visiting Paris on Saturday.
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Great game today (as a neutral and a bit of a purist).
This weekend turned out almost to script as I called it earlier in the thread, Italy gave France a real fright and put in a solid performance, England had enough quality to fight off a tough breakdown centred performance from the scots and there was fuck all between the irish and welsh. I'll stick with my prediction that this is going to be a fantastic 6N.
Yes, but, it didn't surprise me when I realised how young that French team was. The oldest player in the starting XV was 30. A couple of them looked like school leavers!!
Yeah, it won't get any easier either, they have similar problems to England in the football with a national league that's giving very few opportunities for their own youth to come through.
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Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty. Well done Wales, Jocks take note.
Confirms what I already suspected. The Welsh are weird.
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Even though I grew up playing/watching rugby rather than football, I've never understood why crowds are expected to stay silent during kicks.
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Yeah, fuck-em. They're rarely quiet in internationals v England, mind...
Anyway, for you rugby bods who know more about the nuances of the game than I this is interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12144734/Scotland-9-England-15-Five-early-hallmarks-of-the-Eddie-Jones-era-after-Six-Nations-victory-in-Calcutta-Cup-clash.html
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The first time I heard spectators try to put off a kicker was back in the 80s at HQ, when Aussie fans yelled out "it's a brick" as the England kicker approached the ball
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Yeah, fuck-em. They're rarely quiet in internationals v England, mind...
Anyway, for you rugby bods who know more about the nuances of the game than I this is interesting:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12144734/Scotland-9-England-15-Five-early-hallmarks-of-the-Eddie-Jones-era-after-Six-Nations-victory-in-Calcutta-Cup-clash.html
I'm going to have fun with this.
1st GIF - This highlights my problem with Haskell. You can see the meathead with his red scrum cap and he's making no effort to get near to the breakdown (this is about 1-2 minutes in as well). I understand that he's just lifted and can't be expected to be at the first breakdown but his job is track across and be ready to be the first man in at the next one and he made no effort to do, you could capture that gif from any point in the first hour and you'd see him doing the same. If you get chance to watch the full match of someone like Toulon playing compare and contrast with what Armitage does and it's a world of difference. I played back row (normally 8 because I'm a good ball carrier but I probably had 9-10 games at each of the others as well, along with a similar number at 12 having played wing for 2 years when I first started) so I hate seeing people not doing their job from that position. On another point watching Nowell on that clip I genuinely think he'll end up playing 13 within a couple of years, he has the technique and desire to be the BOD-like ball winning 13, he tried to rip it a fair few times as well, the more I see the more I think he could be the real star of this side.
GIF 2, can't blame Haskell for this one because he was on the floor but Care is piss poor there, yes he's a 9 and his main job is to pass it out from there but in that situation he has to be willing to get into the mix and secure the ball.
GIF 3 which is a roll on from the last one you do see Haskell join the ruck eventually but that's poor decision making from him, in that situation, as with the first one, he needs to be waiting to secure the ball on the next breakdown rather than commiting to one which is almost complete, took himself out of the game.
GIF 4 that's more like it at the breakdown, oddly Robshaw is at the heart of it, if he;'d been doing that for the last 4 years the world cup may have been very different.
GIF 5 this is good understanding of the laws from Billy V (who had a monster of a game), he was involved in the tackle so he can just latch on immediately, which completely disrupts the scottish ball.
The whole series of gifs about attacking show the advantage of getting quick ball, it means you can shift it 5-10 yards, make a small gain and go again, 5-6 phases like that will generally disrupt a defensive line so long as the ball is coming back quickly. The only thing I will say as a negative here is that the writer highlights the problem with Farrell at 12, he doesn't offer anything in those situations, he hasn't got the footwork or strength to break the line, when he's at 10 it's a bit of an issue, at 12 it just shows him up as being out of his depth. I'll never be happy with an England team with him in the centres, it's barely a step up from Barritt as for 99% of the game he brings the same qualities, the slight difference being that he can kick a few of the more difficult penalties for us (but that doesn't out weigh the cost, if you don't trust Ford to kick goals then don't pick him, playing Farrell at 12 and having 2 kickers on the bench is just taking the piss. Get a proper 12 in (I'd be ok with Devoto) have Farrell on the bench and fuck Goode off back to sarries to be replaced by Daly (who's a better kicker anyway but also brings some pace and ball carrying ability as well). Longer term I'd be tempted to trust Devoto to step into 10 if needed and get someone like Wade, Yarde or May on the bench as well to give us some real pace and threat to bring in, If you need to replace the full back Watson and Daly offer plenty of cover there, either that or give Cipriani the place he deserves.
The defensive stuff is Gustard through and through, players charging out of the line from 1 man out to force the 10 inside and take away all the width, Sarries have been doing this for years and it's incredibly effective if implemented correctly. This is also where Haskell can get some praise because he's a fantastic tackler and his fitness means he'll always be willing to do that charging down job, which is ideally suited for a 6 so he's just wearing the wrong shirt number. This is the key problem for England, we've genuinely got 4-5 top class 6s in the country (along with a 2.5 8s, Nathan Hughes being the decimal because he's not eligible yet) but we're really struggling on 7s so long as they refuse to look at Armitage, Kvesic has a lot of potential but he's still very raw and Harrison will be a superb 7 but he really needs more game time to fully establish himself at club level.
Final point, I hate seeing the scrum from above when Cole is involved, I don't understand how he can possibly get away with that (this is the penultimate gif); Kruis is pratically in the front because Cole has just turned sideways, somehow we won a penalty for that one but it goes against us far more often than not and he's learned that from the Leicester school of cheating like fuck in the front row. I'd much rather we just kept it dead straight and drove through them like Hartley and Mako are trying to do.
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Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty. Well done Wales, Jocks take note.
Confirms what I already suspected. The Welsh are weird.
I don't have a big problem with this but it is something that you tend to see a lot more in the Scotland-England game than most others and I do wonder if that's in part down to the fact that there are loads of none rugby fans who've got tickets to boo the english bastards rather than to watch rugby or support scotland, I doubt you'll hear it in many other games this year.
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I remember Bill McClaren commentating in the early 70's often railing against "ill mannered booing" at penalty kicks.
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I'll say one thing that surprised me on Saturday and that's how much Kruis has come on. I thought he was excellent.
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Yeah, hopefully he'll stop making shit films now.
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I'll say one thing that surprised me on Saturday and that's how much Kruis has come on. I thought he was excellent.
Yeah, he's had a fantastic season and is carrying that form through. Right now Launchbury is ahead but then there's nothing between Kruis, Lawes and Itoje for the other spot and the bench, all 4 are mobile enough to play back row as well which is fantastic.
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Launchbury, Marler and Care dropped for Lawes, Mako and Youngs respectively. Itoje makes the bench. I'm a little surprised that other than Care the only cover for the backs in Goode. I'm not too happy with that.
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Yeah, I don't understand the logic of having two locks on the bench and only two backs either.
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I'm sticking to the thought that he wants to keep some of the experienced players around whilst we transition, if we're still playing Haskell at 7, Farrell at 12, Care/Youngs at 9 and Goode anywhere this time next year I'll be concerned, and if they're still there in 2018 then I'll be devastated, those choices just don't match to his words and I can't believe he'll stick by them for long. This summer will be telling anyway as he has a completely free choice on the squad then rather than being hamstrung by the central contracts/restrictions on changes.
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Launchbury, Marler and Care dropped for Lawes, Mako and Youngs respectively. Itoje makes the bench. I'm a little surprised that other than Care the only cover for the backs in Goode. I'm not too happy with that.
Not really dropped,
Eddie Jones has said that he will pick 'horses for courses'
He said that this will be a faster game, so he, obviously, feels these guys offer more mobility.
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The French are going to be a danger now.
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Scotland v Wales at HT is making England's performance look more impressive.
I've got to say, I like the way Wales play, despite currently losing.
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I don't particularly like the way Wales play, it's all about physicality. Scotland need a win against Ireland or France.
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Yep, Wales have focused on being bigger and stronger than the opposition for a few years, it's reasonably effective but I'm not a fan.
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The French are going to be a danger now.
Not so sure.
Ireland were pretty poor today.
I think England, Wales and Scotland will beat them
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France were awful for an hour, it was only because Ireland didn't take the points when they were on top that France were still in the game, neither of those sides worry me at all, Ireland are turning out exactly as I expected. They hit their peak before the world cup and have been on the way down since, the club sides are evidence of that and the poor club form for most of the squad has translated to the national team. France really don't scare me, they have some quality but they've lost too much experience and there are massive gaps in their team, significantly I think they're (comparatively) very weak at 8,9 and 10 which are pretty much the worst positions to be struggling for. Wales look easily ruffled so if, like scotland did for an hour, we can match them in physicality I can see them panicking, they started to today before scotland dropped off and let them get a couple of quick scores. The cautionary note would be that North always has the ability to create something from nothing.
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Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.
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Terrible first 50 and then much better in last 30. I was really impressed by Itoje.
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Cole is a liability at times especially at the breakdown, he's just a clumsy oaf, little nouse or guile just an oaf.
Line out was shaky at times, unlike last weeks masterclass display from Hartley, what was it 14 from 15 last week?
Itoje slotted straight in and looks an absolute beast.
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Yep positives were the impact of the bench, Itoje in particular and the ability to keep pressing. Negatives were sluggishness and imprecision in first 50 mins, Haskell and for me Farrell at 12 just not working. It's either got to be Ford or Farrell at 10, because at the moment they both appear to be battling for who has ultimate control and it ends up with neither of them having control.
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Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.
Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.
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Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.
Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.
The MOTM decision was ridiculed on the BBC highlights show.
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Yep positives were the impact of the bench, Itoje in particular and the ability to keep pressing. Negatives were sluggishness and imprecision in first 50 mins, Haskell and for me Farrell at 12 just not working. It's either got to be Ford or Farrell at 10, because at the moment they both appear to be battling for who has ultimate control and it ends up with neither of them having control.
I agree with the Ford/Farrell comments, we seem to have two players doing half a job whereas - at some point in the future - we'll have Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi and Daly as more specialist centres. I'd prefer Farrell and Ford to be competing for one shirt.
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Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.
Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.
Cole improved after I posted that but he was awful in the scrum and at the breakdown for the first 50, it was only when they started to tire that he took some control (he was also helped by Marler making the other side stable so his constant inward drive looked less illegal). Youngs was utter shite, I don't care what the motm award says, his passing just isn't good enough, neither of the 9s should be anywhere near the squad though so I hope that changes come the summer.
The Farrell at 12 experiment is really frustrating.
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Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.
Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.
Cole improved after I posted that but he was awful in the scrum and at the breakdown for the first 50, it was only when they started to tire that he took some control (he was also helped by Marler making the other side stable so his constant inward drive looked less illegal). Youngs was utter shite, I don't care what the motm award says, his passing just isn't good enough, neither of the 9s should be anywhere near the squad though so I hope that changes come the summer.
The Farrell at 12 experiment is really frustrating.
Not disagreeing.
I was a winger/full back, so the dark arts of the front row were way above me ☺
Was talking about the Farrell experiment at 12 today, we reckon it's a stop gap until Tuilangi is fit, then he'll be back at 10
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Was talking about the Farrell experiment at 12 today, we reckon it's a stop gap until Tuilangi is fit, then he'll be back at 10
I know that Ford is off form but wouldn't Tuilagi benefit from a fly-half that stands a bit flatter and can pick his angles a bit better than Farrell?
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I think Slade will be the long term 12.
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I think it was Dean Ryan who said at the weekend that Slade is the best young #10 in the world, so that's three fly half's that are potentially world class (emphasis on potential).
I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on what the backs line will be in a couple of years time. My simple theory is that one centre should be a 'crash' centre whereas the other should be more fleet of foot (and mind) however I'm unsure what the conversion is with regards to which one is inside centre and which is outside, and how that blend in turn affects the selection of fly half.
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What's happened to Wade? Wasn't he the future just a couple of years ago? If it's the one I'm thinking about - played blindingly on the last tour of Argentina.
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I think it was Dean Ryan who said at the weekend that Slade is the best young #10 in the world, so that's three fly half's that are potentially world class (emphasis on potential).
I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on what the backs line will be in a couple of years time. My simple theory is that one centre should be a 'crash' centre whereas the other should be more fleet of foot (and mind) however I'm unsure what the conversion is with regards to which one is inside centre and which is outside, and how that blend in turn affects the selection of fly half.
I prefer a crash/breakdown 13 and then someone a bit more creative at 12. That said they don't have to be a big 13, they have to break the line and they need to try to do some 7 style work at the breakdown. JJ is near perfect and should be the safest shirt in the backs. At 12 I want a kicking option, but also a good passer and able to exploit space. Devoto and Slade fit the bill. The best thing is both can cover 10 so 1 in the team the other on the bench along with a 9 and Daly gives us good options.
Wade is still a stunning winger who will score tries at any level, I hope he gets his chance but May, Watson and Nowell haven't done anything wrong so it's a bit tough on him. Watson is the class act on the wing though, he showed flashes of brilliance at.the weekend
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I think it was Dean Ryan who said at the weekend that Slade is the best young #10 in the world, so that's three fly half's that are potentially world class (emphasis on potential).
I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on what the backs line will be in a couple of years time. My simple theory is that one centre should be a 'crash' centre whereas the other should be more fleet of foot (and mind) however I'm unsure what the conversion is with regards to which one is inside centre and which is outside, and how that blend in turn affects the selection of fly half.
I prefer a crash/breakdown 13 and then someone a bit more creative at 12. That said they don't have to be a big 13, they have to break the line and they need to try to do some 7 style work at the breakdown. JJ is near perfect and should be the safest shirt in the backs. At 12 I want a kicking option, but also a good passer and able to exploit space. Devoto and Slade fit the bill. The best thing is both can cover 10 so 1 in the team the other on the bench along with a 9 and Daly gives us good options.
Wade is still a stunning winger who will score tries at any level, I hope he gets his chance but May, Watson and Nowell haven't done anything wrong so it's a bit tough on him. Watson is the class act on the wing though, he showed flashes of brilliance at.the weekend
No mention of Tuilagi?
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I don't know where he fits, great ball carrier (probably the best tinth e country) but his passing and offloading is suspect, his discipline is poor, he has no kicking game/game management and he's barely been fit for 2-3 years. I'd love him to really work on his passing and offloading because he could be great competition for the 13 shirt with JJ and Daly. My real issue is that in all the time he's been involved England have been a better team when he's been missing or had less of the ball (even though when he's had lots of ball he's won games on his own) - I consider him, at this point, as a rugby equivalent of Darren Bent as of a few years ago in that his own performances tend to come at the expense of the broader team performances and the net result is a team that isn't quite the sum of it's parts. I put this down to him being called into the England squad as a 18 year old with less than 10 games under his belt and being told he was the best thing ever, it's meant that no one has worked on the clear weaknesses in his game that were fine when he was an 18 year old rookie but now he's 24 he needs to have fixed if he wants to reach the BOD/Nonu/Mauger/etc standard that he had the potential to reach. I think England and Tigers have a lot of responsibility for this.
All that said I honestly believe he's better suited to the backrow and I'd love to see him have a go at 6 alongside Armitage and Billy V - that would be the most brutal backrow ever assembled, won't ever happen though.
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I don't know where he fits, great ball carrier (probably the best tinth e country) but his passing and offloading is suspect, his discipline is poor, he has no kicking game/game management and he's barely been fit for 2-3 years. I'd love him to really work on his passing and offloading because he could be great competition for the 13 shirt with JJ and Daly. My real issue is that in all the time he's been involved England have been a better team when he's been missing or had less of the ball (even though when he's had lots of ball he's won games on his own) - I consider him, at this point, as a rugby equivalent of Darren Bent as of a few years ago in that his own performances tend to come at the expense of the broader team performances and the net result is a team that isn't quite the sum of it's parts. I put this down to him being called into the England squad as a 18 year old with less than 10 games under his belt and being told he was the best thing ever, it's meant that no one has worked on the clear weaknesses in his game that were fine when he was an 18 year old rookie but now he's 24 he needs to have fixed if he wants to reach the BOD/Nonu/Mauger/etc standard that he had the potential to reach. I think England and Tigers have a lot of responsibility for this.
All that said I honestly believe he's better suited to the backrow and I'd love to see him have a go at 6 alongside Armitage and Billy V - that would be the most brutal backrow ever assembled, won't ever happen though.
Interesting thanks.
The lack of development you described above (from debut) is one of the reason I did not mind that Daly and Itoje were not capped straight away. We are too keen - especially in football - to select young players and herald them as the saviour that they mentally stop learning.
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Tuilagi makes things happen and for that reason he would start for me in the centres until we can two that compliment each other and are both an attacking threat.
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He does, and that's why he's going to be involved, because every coach that comes in at England or Tigers is going to want to be the one that makes him world class, but I honestly think it harms the overall team to include him right now.
I watched the quins v tigers game last night and it's true that Manu was the only back Leicester had who looked a threat but that was as much because of him (and how quins targeted him) as it was a lack of quality elsewhere. They had Jean de Villiers (one of the best centres in world rugby in the last decade or so) at 13 and he barely touched the ball, can you imagine having JJ, Watson, Nowell all outside him and them getting 2-3 touches a game each, that's what he's done for most of his career and it's effective if you want to play largely 10 man percentage based rugby and you've picked outside backs who are there for their defensive ability but with the talent we have it would be a massive waste.
I still think he has something to offer but I really don't want England to throw away all the progress I can see coming by going backwards and picking a 12 who honestly offers little more than Barritt in terms of the expansive game we should be moving towards. I'd accept him at 13 but, on merit, JJ is well ahead of him in that position and Daly deserves a chance as well.
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Luther Burrell recalled to squad. That's good news, I think he was hard done by in the Sam Burgess debacle, has generally played well for England.
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Luther Burrell recalled to squad. That's good news, I think he was hard done by in the Sam Burgess debacle, has generally played well for England.
Yep, he's been in great form since Christmas as well. At his best he runs fantastic lines and his offloading game is better than anyone else we have.
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He hasn't made the match day squad, but pleased to see Daly in there. Bit surprised to see Lawes drop out, but I guess Itoje gives us flexibility.
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He hasn't made the match day squad, but pleased to see Daly in there. Bit surprised to see Lawes drop out, but I guess Itoje gives us flexibility.
There's not much experimentation going on and I suspect the starting line up will be the same as it was against scotland. I hope he's going to take a proper look at the negatives from the last 2 games though because I'm far from convinced that a back row with Haskell at 7 will be good enough long term and Farrell just out right isn't good enough to play centre, I don't rate him as a flyhalf but he's at least competent at the main parts of the game, at 12 he looks out of his depth, I really wish Slade had been fit.
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Not Daly in for Ford and Farrell at stand off?
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Not Daly in for Ford and Farrell at stand off?
I doubt it, daly and JJ are both better at 13, giving someone their debut in a position they've barely played is risky and you wouldn't move JJ given he's showing signs of becoming a genuinely world class 13. If he brings Daly it's a big statement of his belief in him.
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I presume Kvesic gets fucked off out of the squad again? In favour of Haskell? Mind bending stuff.
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Launchbury injured again, so Lawes back in.
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Launchbury injured again, so Lawes back in.
Will be interesting to see who starts now, I suspect Lawes will leapfrop Itoje into the starting 15 because as with Daly I think starting him this soon is a bit of a risk and if you're going to take risks you should be looking to take them elsewhere (such as keeping Kvesic and dropping Haskell).
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Itoje to start, Marler returns.
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I'm surprised by that, it's a massive call to start him against the champions with no previous experience (he's capped but as a backrow not a 2nd row). His pace and power do add another dimension though.
Marler for Mako is just good sense though, Mako is poor in the scrum but fantastic in the loose, he should have his name carved on the bench and be given 25-30 minutes every match.
Persisting with Farrell out of position at 12 is getting a bit silly now and I really wish he'd done something about the scrum halves because neither of them are in particularly good form.
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I'm excited to see Itoje play, he's just got an aura about him and I think he's going to be a top player. I'm hoping Farrell at 12 will stop once Slade and probably Tuilagi are fit.
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I'm excited to see Itoje play, he's just got an aura about him and I think he's going to be a top player. I'm hoping Farrell at 12 will stop once Slade and probably Tuilagi are fit.
Slade I agree, Manu is never a 12.
I agree on Itoje, I just worry that this 6N is too early for him, I'd have had him with the squad from this time last year but I wouldn't have him starting yet.
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Manu might not be a 12, but Jones sees him as one so I reckon we'll see him there.
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I suppose Itoje's risk is mitigated to a degree by playing alongside his clubmate Kruis.
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Apparently Ireland have big injury problems, so, won't be at full strength.
This might be behind selection of Itoje.
As mentioned, he'll be alongside his team mate which will help.
Looking forward to this game
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Was at a do with Conor O'Shea tonight. He's very impressive by the way. He reckons Ireland have picked a team to do a specific job - very physical in the backs. But he tipped England to win anyway.
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This period of France being a really poor side much be unprecedented. They've been rubbish for an age.
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This period of France being a really poor side much be unprecedented. They've been rubbish for an age.
They remind me of villa. They look like a load of individuals and without a collective identity.
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As Casteneigede was saying at half-time, the French league not only doesn't support the national team, it actively undermines it. Very similar to English football.
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..and English rugby. The Celtic nations have no meaningful league programme. They play Champions Cup and Internationals and the rest of it is warm up matches.
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Not really. The England team could benefit from more centralised control of the clubs, but the England national team still takes ultimate priority which isn't like the football team.
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Our players play more meaningful club matches than the Celts. They get more tired, injuries etc.
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Yes but I'd say France's main issue, like the English Premier League in football, is French players not getting the opportunity.
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Yeah, the English league is doing a stellar job of unearthing talent right now, our record in the Junior World Cup in recent years is evidence of that and even just watching a couple of games you'll see a handful of younger players who have huge amounts of quality. As I've said a few times right now our first 23 is decent (in all honesty we should have got the semi-final of the world cup) but once you start going to the 'depth' squad like the saxons and the U20s we get stronger and stronger. That's down to the league. Every team playing 30+ genuinely competitive matches every season, combined with the international windows and the greater need to rest players has meant that having younger players they can rely on has become a necessity and most clubs have done a great job of bringing through 2-3 young players pretty much every season for the last 5-6 years. It all started in about 1999 when Woodward and the RFU started to encourage the development of much stronger academies in the fairly recently professional clubs.
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shoved a few quid on scotland leading at half time and italy winning, these penalties are frustrating me.
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Piss poor from Cole in the scrum again to concede 3
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So many penalties.
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That's poor from the ref and the TMO. Not a try but not a penalty either.
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That's the second time Youngs has thrown a 5 metre pass well over the head near the Irish line. Killed all momentum both times.
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Not precise enough.
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Good from England now, much better.
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What a tackle by Nowell.
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Indeed. And here's Day at 12.
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Youngs was poor again and Haskell is a fucking idiot but Watson has been excellent and deserved his try. Billy V is the player we hoped for now, absolutely superb performance today.
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Piss poor from Hartley and Cole there.
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Making this much harder work than it should be against a very ordinary Ireland team.
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Poor discipline today, but hugely impressed by Billy, Itoje and Clifford.
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I thought there were bits today that showed we're going the right direction, We really need to get Haskell out of the team, I'd much rather we start with Clifford from this 23. I still think scrum half is a problem, Care improved things before his yellow (which was harsh) but I just don't rate Youngs, his defence for their try was awful.
Itoje looked comfortable, Billy was superb, Watson and Nowell both did really well when they got ball and yes, Clifford looked good when he came on. Daly was unlucky that he came on and then we went to 14 men almost immediately and any chance of him doing something special went out of the window.
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Yeah that's pretty much my reaction too, although I thought Haskell, who i've never been a fan of, was having a really good game until his yellow. Care's yellow was harsh, I'm not sure how you roll away when three people immediately dive on top of you.
We're so blessed at lock at the moment, four outstanding players to choose from. Wish we could trade one of them for a proper 7.
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Impressed by Watson today. He's previously seemed a bit like darren bent to me, whereas today I think his decision making and in particular appetite for running from deep having received kicks made me think he is going to be class.
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Impressed by Watson today. He's previously seemed a bit like darren bent to me, whereas today I think his decision making and in particular appetite for running from deep having received kicks made me think he is going to be class.
Yeah, I think he'll shift to full back in due course.
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You've got to remember Watson has only just turned 22 so he's far from the finished article but his potential is frightening. The bit really early on where he had a standing start and left the Irish guy for dead is what he's done to people at every age group and he's getting the confidence to do it at this level now, which is significant. I think Lancaster knew he had a star but didn't know what to do with him, which is why he never really fitted in.
I think he could play all across the back 3 but I'd also like to see him shift to 15 so we can pick Nowell and then May/Wade/JJ(if we want Daly or Manu at 13). I think 12 will be the really big call in the next 12 months though, Slade will get a chance, Manu will probably be looked at there, Devoto is right on the edge of the squad already and I predict Mallinder will force his way in before long, he's probably the form back in Europe right now, if he keeps this up for the rest of the season he'll be hard to ignore.
Yeah that's pretty much my reaction too, although I thought Haskell, who i've never been a fan of, was having a really good game until his yellow. Care's yellow was harsh, I'm not sure how you roll away when three people immediately dive on top of you.
We're so blessed at lock at the moment, four outstanding players to choose from. Wish we could trade one of them for a proper 7.
With Haskell him doing something ridiculously stupid is almost guaranteed, he's spent his entire career making stupid decisions at terrible times, today was just further evidence that he's a liability (I think the same about Brown as well, I know he can be effective and a lot of people rate him but I find his decision making shocking at times and he regularly costs us points). For Care he knew what he was doing but it was a harsh yellow. Whilst talking about harsh decisions the penalty for the Hartley double movement was a truly pathetic decision.
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Yeah that's pretty much my reaction too, although I thought Haskell, who i've never been a fan of, was having a really good game until his yellow. Care's yellow was harsh, I'm not sure how you roll away when three people immediately dive on top of you.
We're so blessed at lock at the moment, four outstanding players to choose from. Wish we could trade one of them for a proper 7.
Thought the ref was poor today. For me both yellows were harsh.
Haskell was comitted into a tackle. How does an 18 stone chap pull out once committed? They kept showing a slowed down version which is always going to make it look worse.
Care was unlucky, too.
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Nah Haskell was a definite yellow. Thought he played well until he went off and I think it was noticeable that ireland's most successful period came when he went off. As for Care, I don't know, I thought it was a 50/50 decision but he went over the top of the ball purposely to slow it down. Once the penalties given the yellow has to follow.
The rule I think is crazy - other than stuff around the scrum - is the deliberate knock on. Yes, its deliberate because a player is trying to intercept the ball but unless they fly out of the line like a keeper turning the ball around the corner then I think that players should be encouraged to try and snatch the ball. The only 'penalty' should be a knock on and scrum. You may say that it would encourage players to then and deliberately knock it on at the risk of only giving away a scrum, but I'd counter that by saying that early breaks would either see opposition players caught offside or teams would have runners expoliting gaps of early breaks from the opposition.
As for scrums. Why doesn't the clock stop when a scrum is called and only re-ster when the referee says 'engage'?
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Hartleys double movement typified the ridiculous officiating this weekend, Friday night was worse and definitely added to the bore fest that was the Wales France game (mind you Wales deserved nothing for their cynicism and the French are just shit). Haskell's late tackle carried no malice or intent and yet we see the replay over and over again in slow motion.
How about we have a TMO rule that says 3 reviews for foul play and only 1 can be in slow motion.
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Caught a bit of the England game on the radio yesterday.
They played music after a try.
They can fuck off.
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Hartleys double movement typified the ridiculous officiating this weekend, Friday night was worse and definitely added to the bore fest that was the Wales France game (mind you Wales deserved nothing for their cynicism and the French are just shit). Haskell's late tackle carried no malice or intent and yet we see the replay over and over again in slow motion.
How about we have a TMO rule that says 3 reviews for foul play and only 1 can be in slow motion.
Haskell's yellow wasn't because it was late, it was because it was a shoulder check followed by a feeble attempt to wrap the arm that ended up being around the neck anyway. Basically he got a yellow for being a lazy fuck with the attempted tackle and it was perfectly legitimate. Before that I thought he'd been ok but nothing more, I'd say the same about Robshaw as well. Kruis, Itoje and Billy V were superb and dragged the whole performance of the pack up a level, the latter is comfortably the player of the tournament so far. In the front row Marler was ok, Hartley was good and Cole got better after a poor start, he still worries me though.
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Haskell out, Kvesic in.
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During the Wasps game (they were fucking brilliant by the way and Wade made as good try saving tackle as you'll ever see) there was a lot of talk about how to accommodate Hughes when he becomes available in July (He's already stated he wants to represent England is looking forward to it) and the common belief was moving Billy to 6 (sarries have played him there a fair bit as well). With Itoje now in the mix in the 2nd row you've got 3 genuine back row forwards without picking a 7. That means you can pick based on specialist skills because ball carrying, tackling, etc really aren't things thatyou need to 7 to worry about. At that point you just pick someone who will annoy the shit out the opposition, slow the ball down and win a few turnovers. Haskell isn't that player, in the premiership Kvesic and Harrison are the viable options right now and Kvesic is a little ahead so I agree, he needs to be involved.
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Haskell out, Kvesic in.
I'd say Haskell out Clifford in. In the short time he was on the pitch he showed exactly how good he can be as a 7.
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Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck.
Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.
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Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck.
Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.
Yes. I saw that.
Think he'd be unlucky to get a ban as, my view was, an Irish lad pushed into him to clear him out forcing boot to face.
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Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck.
Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.
Yes. I saw that.
Think he'd be unlucky to get a ban as, my view was, an Irish lad pushed into him to clear him out forcing boot to face.
I'm not so sure, it was dangerous (and aggressive) enough that I think they may throw a week or 2 at him. I very nearly wrote this yesterday as part of a 'Brown makes stupid decisions just like Haskell' rant that I decided against. I think most people on here know my opinion of Mike Brown (and probably think it's incredibly harsh) so I try not to rant too much and he is solid under the high ball, I just think he's an idiot and that slips into his game too easily. If he was clearly the best option we had in his position I'd be less critical (see my views on Dylan Hartley) but people woith big flaws who I don't see as essential to the squad are liabilities and right now Haskell and Brown are on that list (and Cole is very close to joining them because I'm fed up with him refusing the push straight in the scrum and he's getting penalised for it regularly now). Youngs is on dangerous ground as well but that's only because Simpson, Chudley and recently Robson (who was immense again today) are all significantly better than him.
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Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck.
Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.
Yes. I saw that.
Think he'd be unlucky to get a ban as, my view was, an Irish lad pushed into him to clear him out forcing boot to face.
I'm not so sure, it was dangerous (and aggressive) enough that I think they may throw a week or 2 at him. I very nearly wrote this yesterday as part of a 'Brown makes stupid decisions just like Haskell' rant that I decided against. I think most people on here know my opinion of Mike Brown (and probably think it's incredibly harsh) so I try not to rant too much and he is solid under the high ball, I just think he's an idiot and that slips into his game too easily. If he was clearly the best option we had in his position I'd be less critical (see my views on Dylan Hartley) but people woith big flaws who I don't see as essential to the squad are liabilities and right now Haskell and Brown are on that list (and Cole is very close to joining them because I'm fed up with him refusing the push straight in the scrum and he's getting penalised for it regularly now). Youngs is on dangerous ground as well but that's only because Simpson, Chudley and recently Robson (who was immense again today) are all significantly better than him.
No action to be taken.
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Indeed, I think he's pretty lucky there.
I see Manu and Ewers are added to the training squad. I hope they don't leapfrog Daly and Kvesic who haven't really been given a chance yet.
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If he's fit then I'd start Tuilagi against Wales as they will just try and bulldoze their way through the centres. I doubt he'll offer too much attacking wise in all honesty but his power and strength should be enough to keep Wales at bay and attack them when we do get the ball in open play - which i doubt will be often.
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I think if they develop Manu correctly he could be our version on Nonu, but in saying that I fully acknowledge he needs to improve his passing and vision.
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Clifford for Robshaw, Kvesic for Haskell is how I would do it. And drop Youngs to boot.
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Clifford for Robshaw, Kvesic for Haskell is how I would do it. And drop Youngs to boot.
The problem with dropping Youngs is that the only alternative is Care, neither are playing well enough to be in the squad, Simpson, Chudley and Robson are the 3 quality 9s in the league right now, Robson in particular has been electric for the last month.
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Aside from first half of Wales v Ireland think it has been a poor tournament.
Scotland are the most entertaining team
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Aside from first half of Wales v Ireland think it has been a poor tournament.
Scotland are the most entertaining team
It's going almost exactly as I suspected.
England look like a squad put together to play one way but being asked/trained to play a different game.
France look like a team where the stars of their domestic league are all foreign and they don't know where the spark will come from.
Ireland look like they've lost all the leaders in their squad.
Italy look like a side that's trying to do the right things but doesn't have the club structure to support it.
Scotland look like a team trying to play the right way but with players not quite able to believe they are good enough to do it.
Wales look like a team who are assembled to bully the opposition and kick points when they get chance and then hope that one of their crashes through the middle leads to a try.
Ireland have the most sympathy from me, losing O'Brien for the tournament when he's the only world class player they have left was a kick in a balls. I'm not sure I agree with you on Scotland though, I understand what they're trying to do but I just don't think they have the quality (especially at 10, 12 and 13) to play the game they're trying to so it looks a bit like a waste of effort and I really don't see them doing much more than we've seen already.
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Aside from first half of Wales v Ireland think it has been a poor tournament.
Scotland are the most entertaining team
It's going almost exactly as I suspected.
England look like a squad put together to play one way but being asked/trained to play a different game.
France look like a team where the stars of their domestic league are all foreign and they don't know where the spark will come from.
Ireland look like they've lost all the leaders in their squad.
Italy look like a side that's trying to do the right things but doesn't have the club structure to support it.
Scotland look like a team trying to play the right way but with players not quite able to believe they are good enough to do it.
Wales look like a team who are assembled to bully the opposition and kick points when they get chance and then hope that one of their crashes through the middle leads to a try.
Ireland have the most sympathy from me, losing O'Brien for the tournament when he's the only world class player they have left was a kick in a balls. I'm not sure I agree with you on Scotland though, I understand what they're trying to do but I just don't think they have the quality (especially at 10, 12 and 13) to play the game they're trying to so it looks a bit like a waste of effort and I really don't see them doing much more than we've seen already.
Yes I have sympathy with Ireland. Players like O'Connell (for Ireland) come along every 40 years. He was seriously that good.
With Scotland I meant they are trying to play a form of rugby even without the talent or depth.
Your other assessments are spot on and reason why Wales, who certainly have the best match day squad in terms of quality, do so utterly average against Southern Hemisphere Nations.
They remind of England in the early to mid 90's. Effective, mainly boring and are capable of more adventure.
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I agree on Scotland, I think it's commendable, I just don't agree that they're the most entertaining team but that's largely because I get so frustrated by basic handling errors that it puts me off and I can't concentrate on what they're actually trying to do. The worst thing is I think they have a decent pack for the game they want to play and a good set of outside backs but Finn Russell is easily the worst 10 in the tournament and their centres aren't much better either. On top of that I think Laidlaw is a barely acceptable 9 who keeps his spot on the strength of his kicking which adds yet another reason that Russell needs to be replaced.
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I agree on Scotland, I think it's commendable, I just don't agree that they're the most entertaining team but that's largely because I get so frustrated by basic handling errors that it puts me off and I can't concentrate on what they're actually trying to do. The worst thing is I think they have a decent pack for the game they want to play and a good set of outside backs but Finn Russell is easily the worst 10 in the tournament and their centres aren't much better either. On top of that I think Laidlaw is a barely acceptable 9 who keeps his spot on the strength of his kicking which adds yet another reason that Russell needs to be replaced.
Was saying this to my mate, that if Scotland had a Gregor Townsend at 10 I think they'd be a threat.
I think Laidlaw's a decent 9 given whats outside him. It would be interesting to see him with a good 10 outside.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Could be worse. Viasat have the rights to the 6 nations and the World Cup over here.
The world cup final coverage ended up being the last 30 minutes live followed by a complete re-run of the game as they'd decided to show PSG v Barcelona ladies handball instead.
The 6 nations matches have so far been the Friday evening game re-run at about midnight, no coverage of the Saturday game and the Sunday game at about 2am on Monday morning.
Apart from this weekend where everything is either Tennis from Indian Wells, Boxing or serious pant wetting over Kevin Magnussen returning to F1.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Could be worse. Viasat have the rights to the 6 nations and the World Cup over here.
The world cup final coverage ended up being the last 30 minutes live followed by a complete re-run of the game as they'd decided to show PSG v Barcelona ladies handball instead.
The 6 nations matches have so far been the Friday evening game re-run at about midnight, no coverage of the Saturday game and the Sunday game at about 2am on Monday morning.
Apart from this weekend where everything is either Tennis from Indian Wells, Boxing or serious pant wetting over Kevin Magnussen returning to F1.
I remember similar problems in Norway, even if they covered the rugby it was, as you say, a few minutes here and there where it didn't interrupt their other programming.
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Slightly off topic but BT Sport's coverage is generally excellent of club rugby nowadays. Often three or four matches and decent analysis programmes too.
I also enjoy the amount of European football that they show. It's almost as if I can completely ignore the Premier League now and pretend it is not happening.
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Slightly off topic but BT Sport's coverage is generally excellent of club rugby nowadays. Often three or four matches and decent analysis programmes too.
I also enjoy the amount of European football that they show. It's almost as if I can completely ignore the Premier League now and pretend it is not happening.
I agree, slightly too much 'tigers' focus in the make up of the commentary team and the Welsh bird is annoying is fuck but other than that I think they do a really good job. I like the 3 commentators idea as well because they have, generally, proper insight from forwards and backs perspective and then a 'real' commentator to hold it together. Flatman, Monye and Dallaglio in particular are excellent at giving real insight into what's going on and I love the fact that they often disagree, rugby, like cricket, has commentary that's leagues ahead of football.
The other thing I love about the rugby is that they own their own footage so you get this - Link (http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/?WT.mc_id=mpType:Display*Asset:Display_Ad*CmpID:PRTV*Other:Video) - which is fantastic if you've missed a game or 2.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Do you try to watch the club game? English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.
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I had a cracking Year 7 rugby lesson today. Having been teaching for 20+ years and personally only played three competitive games of egg chase in my life, I really enjoy teaching it. The kids were great; rucks, mauls, tap pens and no scrums. Brill.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Do you try to watch the club game? English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.
Thinking of getting a season ticket to either Wasps or Worcester next season and pick my Villa games.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Do you try to watch the club game? English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.
I can't say I do really. I occasionally check how Moseley are getting on but can't say I'm overly bothered. I also like Glasgow to do well in Pro12/Europe but, again, not too arsed. I think if I start watching any more sport my girlfriend will definitely dump me! Anyhow I couldn't support franchise scum Wasps.
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Do you try to watch the club game? English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.
Thinking of getting a season ticket to either Wasps or Worcester next season and pick my Villa games.
If you're neutral I recommend wasps, I suspect they'll challenge for the title next year, Hughes, Robson/Simpson and Cipriani is a phenomenal 8, 9, 10 and with Hallai, Wade and Daly outside they're going to expose a lot of teams, there's loads of pace, quick ball from the ruck and a 10 who can hit a sixpence. I'm thinking of getting a season ticket there myself.
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
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Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Do you try to watch the club game? English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.
Thinking of getting a season ticket to either Wasps or Worcester next season and pick my Villa games.
If you're neutral I recommend wasps, I suspect they'll challenge for the title next year, Hughes, Robson/Simpson and Cipriani is a phenomenal 8, 9, 10 and with Hallai, Wade and Daly outside they're going to expose a lot of teams, there's loads of pace, quick ball from the ruck and a 10 who can hit a sixpence. I'm thinking of getting a season ticket there myself.
Decision made :)
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P
Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares. on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P
Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares. on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
Spend obscene amounts of money. Awful to watch. Don't get the level of success you'd expect from that level of financial doping.
So the Chelsea of rugby then? Do they have a habit of deifying an absolute cock socket as a manger whilst shitting from a great height all over the few decent people they've got in their employ?
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The sarries argument amounts to "France doesn't have these caps so if we don't spend more than we should all the best players go there". What that ignores is that pushing for increases to the caps (which are there to safeguard the clubs so they don't go into debt, Sarries are the only club carrying large debts) is fine but to repeatedly breach the caps (to qualify this, if they aren't breaching the caps then the average wage for non-playing staff at the club is about 40% higher than London averages for those roles but that's their defence) whilst making that argument is a massive "fuck you" to the league and really should've resulted in a points deduction by now.
EDIT - lost track of my point there. I'd actually liken them to Leeds more than anything, spending like it's going out of fashion to keep up with the big boys whilst totally aware that 1 bad season will leave them deep in the shit for at least a decade.
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Fair enough.
Chelsea, Leeds? Odious.
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P
Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares. on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
I'm no Pear! I've already said I'm a not-very-arsed Moseley/Glasgow fan!
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P
Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares. on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
I'm no Pear! I've already said I'm a not-very-arsed Moseley/Glasgow fan!
I was joking just to get another dig in about scotland to be honest.
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Tuilagi retained in squad in place of Goode. Happy with that.
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Surprised by the silence from both Gatland and Jones. I was looking forward to them stoking the fire before the game.
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P
Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares. on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
What about Bath, again blatant disregard for salary cap, found 'jobs' for players in amateur era and don't even own their own ground (which incidentally has rubbish views and mostly uncovered).
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Boooooooooo!
I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P
Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares. on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
What about Bath, again blatant disregard for salary cap, found 'jobs' for players in amateur era and don't even own their own ground (which incidentally has rubbish views and mostly uncovered).
The 'jobs' during the amateur era was fairly normal (Tigers were the worst for it, hence they just happened to be a fair bit further along than most sides when things went professional). The ground is a tough one because the Bath fans I know would be mortified if they moved but they have no option to buy it so what do they do? I agree they took the piss a little with the salary cap but not to the same extent as Sarries, and they were only over for 1 year (by the look of it). My bigger issue with Sarries is the debt, as I say, they're like Leeds in that they've run up massive debts that they can really control as is, 1 bad season and they're utterly fucked - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3414067/Saracens-debt-hits-45-1m-club-extends-unwanted-record-further.html - they've adopted a football club mentality in a market that doesn't really support it and I worry that not only are they going to send themselves to the wall but they're going to damage the game in the process. They should've been docked points but if that happens and they miss the play offs it could cripple them so they're in a 3 way stare off with the RFU and premiership rugby and I don#t see any way for it to end well so long as sarries refuse to admit they need to do something about it.
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George being out is a blow, although currently Hartley would be playing most of the game anyway.
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George being out is a blow, although currently Hartley would be playing most of the game anyway.
It is but I like Cowan-Dickie as well so I don't think it's that big a deal when, as you say, it's a 15-20 minute cameo.
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I really hope we beat Wales I can't stand them. They're the Stoke of Rugby, all physicality and no finesse. Also in spite of the popular myth of England being arrogant Wales are incredibly arrogant.
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Itoje has put in one of the best halves of rugby I've ever seen here, it's been close to perfect.
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yup I agree
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Here comes you know who
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I'm not sure what's worse:
"Swing low..." Etc.
Or
"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).
Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.
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Still, good to see England crushing Wales.
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I'm not sure what's worse:
"Swing low..." Etc.
Or
"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).
Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.
Swing Low is awesome when you're there. Let's go is awful and should be killed with fire.
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What are England doing?
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For fuck sake, stupitity from Cole and now we're threatening to throw it away.
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Making it exciting.
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Dear oh dear, England blowing it at Twickenham against the Welsh again. At least I don't have a 3 hour trip home this time.
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Jesus we made hard work of that
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it was like watching the villa last 15 mins
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Itoje deservedly MoM, almost threw that one away spectacularly, but luckily Gatland doesn't let them play until it's too late.
The only thing left to say is come on the Scots ... Flooer o' Scoatlun' ...
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Cole and Haskell making stupid mistakes at bad times again, the sooner we get the pair of dickheads out the better. I don't like Farrell and Manu at 10 and 12 either, the lack of discipline means there are gaps that shouldn't be there. The Youngs pass that led to their first try was shocking as well.
All the complaints done, itoje, billy, nowell and watson were superb.
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Cole and Haskell making stupid mistakes at bad times again, the sooner we get the pair of dickheads out the better. I don't like Farrell and Manu at 10 and 12 either, the lack of discipline means there are gaps that shouldn't be there. The Youngs pass that led to their first try was shocking as well.
All the complaints done, itoje, billy, nowell and watson were superb.
Cole and Haskell have always been walking penalties, I don't understand why they keep getting picked. Youngs' pass was a shocker but I thought he played well otherwise.
I'd add Kruis to your list. It was like having four flankers at times.
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Cole and Haskell making stupid mistakes at bad times again, the sooner we get the pair of dickheads out the better. I don't like Farrell and Manu at 10 and 12 either, the lack of discipline means there are gaps that shouldn't be there. The Youngs pass that led to their first try was shocking as well.
All the complaints done, itoje, billy, nowell and watson were superb.
Cole and Haskell have always been walking penalties, I don't understand why they keep getting picked. Youngs' pass was a shocker but I thought he played well otherwise.
I'd add Kruis to your list. It was like having four flankers at times.
Yes, Kruis, Hartley, Robshaw and Brown all played well but not quite on the same level, Itoje was a step above the other 3 as well, didn't have quite the same influence in the 2nd half but was still very good, 9.5/10 for me.
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I was reduced to watching my first full game in 18 months on a shit stream, see previous bitching about Viasat buying the rights and not showing the games.
I knew the stream had been slipping behind real time. Every time it froze up, it picked up where it had locked up. Until it froze as the Welsh peeled of the scrum for what I presume was their second try, only for it to recover with the score at 23-21 and the Welsh piling down the far touchline. I can now confirm that adrenaline is brown.
From what I could see between the stream freezing
Itoje was immense.
Generally the discipline that's been a problem since the end of Woodward looks to be getting better with a dis-honourable mention for Coles.
In general the game management was better than anything I saw after the first 12 months of Lancaster.
For all the first half dominance, 16 points was an insufficient return.
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I'm not sure what's worse:
"Swing low..." Etc.
Or
"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).
Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.
'on the piss m'lord' wins hands down for shit song of the century.
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Haskell had some great moments in the first half before him and Cole reverted to type.
Itoje was immense, Manu looked shit scared.
Im sure we'll put the French to the sword next week, we need to show we can be clinical, today 40 points should have been attainable against a pretty lack lustre Welsh side who only played for 20 minutes.
I know that kicking has become an integral part of the game but I do wish we made better choices with ball in hand, a few times today we kicked away decent possession, it was almost like Toby Flood was back in the side.
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Haskell had some great moments in the first half before him and Cole reverted to type.
Itoje was immense, Manu looked shit scared.
Im sure we'll put the French to the sword next week, we need to show we can be clinical, today 40 points should have been attainable against a pretty lack lustre Welsh side who only played for 20 minutes.
I know that kicking has become an integral part of the game but I do wish we made better choices with ball in hand, a few times today we kicked away decent possession, it was almost like Toby Flood was back in the side.
On the kicking I think a big part of that was the positioning of Farrell at 12. a fair few times he just wasn't in the right place so Ford kicked instead. I'm not trying to absolve Ford of any blame but I honestly don't think it helps that when he comes flat Farrell is slow into the line and when he goes deep Farrell gets too close so he's static when Ford passes.
I agree on the 40 points thing, the 'treatment' of Watson is the worst example, I reckon 2/3rds of the ball he got was him catching long kicks and trying to make something happen. The few times we gave him good ball with space in front of him he made things happen.
Haskell - I've said it plenty of times, I don't think he's a bad player, I just think he's a fucking idiot, he's making the same mistakes now that he's made all through his career. I also find it insulting that england were willing to break the 'must play in England' rule for this meathead but won't do it for the best 7 in the northern hemisphere.
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I'm not sure what's worse:
"Swing low..." Etc.
Or
"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).
Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.
'on the piss m'lord' wins hands down for shit song of the century.
Maybe, but the people sing it because they really fucking love the Villa and care what happens to the Villa (rightly or wrongly). The songs I mentioned are sang in the same way the National Anthem is. They sing it because they feel like they have to (and probably read the Daily Mail.)
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I disagree, there is no defending singing songs about getting pissed as an 'ode' to one of your modern legends when he has had well reported drinking problems. I really fucking hate that song.
Swing low, Let's go and the slow version of when the saints are all shitty and annoying as fuck but they're not out right insulting towards the person they're supposed to be in praise of.
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Itoje was outstanding today. I thought Ford was pretty poor. We were excellent for 65 and then rubbish for the last 10-15.
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Itoje was outstanding today. I thought Ford was pretty poor. We were excellent for 65 and then rubbish for the last 10-15.
You say Ford was poor (and I don't disagree) but our performance dropped noticeably once he went off. The problem is Farrell and Manu like to 'smash' tackles and they don't have enough discipline to hold a defensive line, our whole shape looked wrong with them at 10 and 12, this is one of the reasons I'm so against Farrell and I don't think Manu is the golden child so many claim him to be. poor defence because of bad technique I can live with because it can be fixed in young-ish players, poor defence because of attitude is more difficult. I thought Farrell was particularly poor today because he was forcing Ford into bad decisions, there were 2-3 times in the first half where straightening up and taking the ball at pace would've given us big overlaps but instead Farrell charged up early to chase a kick meaning Ford either threw a wide one against a rush defence or did what Farrell wanted. As well as we played for the first hour I think we should be ashamed of how little we did to get JJ, Watson and Nowell involved in 'good' areas. He needs to fix that, those 3 are the key to unlocking teams like NZ and Aus but we need to get them confident that they'll get the ball if they make the runs, Watson made 3-4 good support lines today and got ignored.
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Itoje was outstanding today. I thought Ford was pretty poor. We were excellent for 65 and then rubbish for the last 10-15.
Ford was OK until the kick was charged down for their try and then he lost it big time. There was one point in our own 22 I think where normally he would have booted it but he dithered and got tackled.
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Good weekend for Scottish sport.
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England win 2 of the 3 up for grabs, the big one against the French next week, England by 25.
Marler could be sanctioned for a comment made to Samson Lee in the first half, he's alleged to have called Lee 'Gypsy boy' and could face a 4 week ban.
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Woohoo! First win since 2011 great start to Jones regime.
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Marler now also cited for striking so I think it's a given he's missing next week and probably out for most of the rest of the season if there's reasonable evidence against him.
Where this becomes a big deal is that I just don't trust Mako V, he's terrible in the scrum and will be a big weakness for us. Matt Mullan is likely to come onto the bench, which i'm ok with I really would like us to have a prop who is decent in the scrum as an option as well, particularly against France.
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I'm amazed that Marler has been given a green light, the striking citation I agree with their verdict, there was nothing in it but the 'racism' (in quotes because I don't think he was intentionally being racist, I think it was a badly considered joke and it was taken that way by Lee) one seems pretty controversial. As said, I think it was intended as a joke and I think everyone involved knows that but it was picked up on a mic and widely reported and therefore became bigger than that. That World Rugby have asked the 6 Nations to explain the decision suggests that this might not be over because I think the credibility of the sport in regards to anti-racism is something that will be heavily considered. It does mean that Marler and Lee will be, in my opinion, turned into pawns but a minimum 4 week ban (with the standard clause to reduce on 'character so probably 2-3 weeks) and a slap on the wrist would've seen it dealt with and should've been the verdict, something like:
"in reaching this decision we have taken in to consideration the intention behind the comments and his character and disciplinary record but we felt it necessary to remind the player of his responsibility as a professional sportsman and to ensure that we remain committed to opposing racism in all forms."
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I'm just trying to imagine what the reaction would have been from the rugby fraternity and the tabloids if an England footballer had punched someone during a match and made a potentially racist comment.
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Excited by this. Scotland v Ireland was a great warm up, a cracker in fact (the score should have been closer imo).
Now the main event.
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Owens has got that penalty against Itoje wrong, should've been the other way for holding on, Itoje's initial shape and position was perfect.
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Brown shows again why I don't rate him, Watson should've been in to score under the posts there but instead he threw it away into midfield.
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Care makes up for a couple of piss poor box kicks
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Sucker punch that but it's fucking awful defence from France.
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Agree with both of those posts Paul-e. Brown lacks awareness.
That said, I was about to slag Care off on here for his poor box kicks and then he snipes a try under the posts.
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I don't think you can give Care all that much credit, a gap that wide 25 yards out I suspect any professional 9 scores. I'm not belittling him scoring but it was an absolute gift.
That Trinh-Duc injury is nasty, not sure it needed 2 replays.
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Very open game this.
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Fair play to Dan Cole but should be disallowed, definite blocking.
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Another appalling box kick, Care, despite the try, has been poor.
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Giving away careless penalites at the moment. We need to get our heads together.
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could be a crucial 3 points here. 12-20 feels a significantly better than 12-17.
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we're leading but that's a really poor half in a lot of ways, lots of mistakes.
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Over all I am impressed how much quicker the ball is recycled under Jones. We have some average players though, two of which scored.
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Need to be much better in second half.
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Over all I am impressed how much quicker the ball is recycled under Jones. We have some average players though, two of which scored.
This is the key change he's made, we get numbers to the breakdown quickly. Lancaster had us standing out and it meant we rarely got turnovers and we gave away far too many against the good sides. Jones was right to not make huge changes in personnel and instead concentrate on style but I think the changes with the players need to come in the summer, there's 3-4 of this team who are lucky to still be there.
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Shite start to second.
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Piss poor defence from Brown there, Nowell got him out of jail after he sold himself far too cheaply.
I can't quite understand how we're leading here, far too many mistakes.
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Is it naive to think we should get stronger as the game goes on because we have a stronger bench?
Bit too close this.
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Is it naive to think we should get stronger as the game goes on because we have a stronger bench?
Bit too close this.
Should be, Youngs needs to be a step up on Care tohugh because that's been our biggest issue so far.
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So many bloody penalites.
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Awful.
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Our decision making is so poor today
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oh just fuck of Brown you fucking imbecile.
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there we go, someone shows the brains to give Watson the ball in space and he scores.
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Fuck me we are playing so poorly.
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So many penalties given away!
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Fucking hell.
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Nasty injury for Hartley.
performance wise both 9s have shown why they're not good enough, Brown has made 3-4 fundamental errors and Farrell, penalties aside, has been fucking awful.
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That said, I think Ford has had an excellent game given some of the shit that's been thrown to him.
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probably the easiest yellow card decision owens has ever had to make, what was the guy doing?
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man of the match, for me, is a coin toss between Kruis and Itoje, once again they've both been exceptional.
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Grand slam get in! Poor precision today but we've done it.
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man of the match, for me, is a coin toss between Kruis and Itoje, once again they've both been exceptional.
I totally agree, took the French line out apart and were all over the field.
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Very happy with the grand slam, the main thing its done is show just how poor Lancaster was for us to not get out of the group.
I think there's still some big work to do but it's nice to know that my belief that we have the best set of players in Europe has been shown to be correct.
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Billy is the player of the tournament for me. Watson has stepped up a level and still has more to come, I'd have him and North as my wingers. Hartley has shown to be a great choice for captain and is comfortably the best hooker we have. Finally Itoje is the brightest light in world rugby right now and he can really be whatever he wants to be, brilliant athlete with excellent technical skills. Kruis was the form 2nd row in England and has translated that to international rugby with ease.
Those 5 need to be at the heart of the squad going forward.
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man of the match, for me, is a coin toss between Kruis and Itoje, once again they've both been exceptional.
Have to agree - Kruis peerless at the set piece and Itoje slightly better in open play.
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Next on Jones' agenda: Select either Ford or farrell. Picking both makes our backs dysfunctional.
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Delighted with Grand Slam. Getting a team who clearly have so much potential for growth to win all their games at this stage of their development is excellent. Billy, Kruis, Itoje and Watson have all shown themselves to be world class this tournament.
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Excellent from Kruis and Itodje but good shifts from Robshaw, Haskell, and Nowell too. Thought Watson looked lively whenever he had a sniff of the ball. As poor;y as we did play you have to give a lot of credit to France. At home they were never going to roll over and let us rock up and take a Grand slam without working for it. You also have to bear in mind that none of this team has won anything internationally (I only count Grand Slams as winning anything not winning the 6 Nations without it). Anyway, nice to win it even nicer to do it away.
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Excellent from Kruis and Itodje but good shifts from Robshaw, Haskell, and Nowell too. Thought Watson looked lively whenever he had a sniff of the ball. As poor;y as we did play you have to give a lot of credit to France. At home they were never going to roll over and let us rock up and take a Grand slam without working for it. You also have to bear in mind that none of this team has won anything internationally (I only count Grand Slams as winning anything not winning the 6 Nations without it). Anyway, nice to win it even nicer to do it away.
I thought Robshaw and Haskell were poor in the first half but they got better.
Nowell had a frustrating game for me, he was good in defence but in attack he was getting lots of ball by coming off his wing but he was running predictable lines and getting hit back a little too much for me. I rate him highly but today was his worst game.
to be truly negative I know I slate Brown a lot and you're probably all bored of it but today was him at his braindead worst, he just makes so many bad decisions in a game, yes he's good under the high ball and yes he carries it back well but that largely gets negated by the fact that he either misses obvious passes that he should make or he runs into trouble and gets turned over, the failure to set Watson in in the first half was unforgivable, all he had to do was straighten and pin the full back and then pop a pass and it's a simple 7 pointer, we need to replace him soon if we want to build towards challenging for the next world cup.
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It's easy to be negative and criticise England, especially as we aren't the finished article yet, but also remiss of anyone to forget that there was another team out there trying to stop us. We may not have played at our best, it happens, we may not have played silky flowing ruby, that happens too, but I think it's a hallmark of a good team, and a good set of players, that when not hitting their straps they are still winning big important games.
I disagree with you a lot on Brown, but only because I don't understand the nuances of his, and the game, but like what I see of him. Today, I did think he was poor and made the wrong decisions when he was (seldomly) involved in the game. In the first half I think we were too slow at the breakdown which leas to too many penalties. But that was team wide.
One other thing Billy V has been great but for me my man of the tournament for England has been Kruis.
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What is remarkable is how well Kruis and Itoje have done. If you'd said before the tournament that Launchbury wouldn't be first choice if fit and that Lawes wouldn't be in the squad full stop you'd have been laughed at.
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What is remarkable is how well Kruis and Itoje have done. If you'd said before the tournament that Launchbury wouldn't be first choice if fit and that Lawes wouldn't be in the squad full stop you'd have been laughed at.
That's a nice position to be in and it will be interesting to see where Tuilagi will fit in; for me he has to play in the first test against the Aussies.
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I think Jones is canny enough to start replacing players bit by bit that he sees as the players who are good but not going to make us great. I'm thinking Haskell, Robshaw, Cole, Youngs, M Vunipola, Brown, and even Farrell.
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I think he rates Robshaw and I think he's fine at 6 to be honest.
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Yes I agree. I think he's fine at 6 at the moment and Jones says the right things about him. There's a chance of course but I'd be surprised if he's apart of any England world-cup winning starting 15. If he is it'll show how much he will have improved which is just a win-win for England.
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I'm not sure, Robshaw is ok at 6 but when Nathan Hughes is available as an 8 do you have one of Hughes or Billy on the bench or do you shift Billy to 6 and play both? With Robshaw I think it's going to be him being dropped because there are better options (I think Clifford will pass him soon and Gibson and Ewers have got to be knocking on the door). I think the same is true at 9. For all my bitching Youngs and Care aren't terrible but both of them have big gaps which Simpson, Robson and Chudley don't have so you have to think it's likely to be 2 from those 3 in the long term.
The likes of Haskell, Farrell (as a 12) and Cole just aren't good enough.
I disagree with you a lot on Brown, but only because I don't understand the nuances of his, and the game, but like what I see of him. Today, I did think he was poor and made the wrong decisions when he was (seldomly) involved in the game. In the first half I think we were too slow at the breakdown which leas to too many penalties. But that was team wide.
The problem with Brown, as I've tried to get across a few times, is that he's thick (as a player), that's leads to bad decision making which comes out as:
- His positioning is very iffy at times where he stays too central when teams are attacking down a wing, leaving himself too much to do to get across and cover a missed tackle.
- He misses the 'right' pass too often.
- He runs into other people's space and wastes overlaps.
- He runs into contact without having enough people around him and gets turned over.
- He tries to act the hard man by smashing people in the tackle and ends up selling himself.
- His kicking game is poor, too often he gives the opposition good counter attack ball when he should just find touch.
I won't deny he's a fantastic ball carrier and he's solid under the high ball but like Haskell and Cole the bad things make him a liability and if we want to win the next world cup we can't afford to have those types of players. I have similar concerns about Manu but voicing those around most English rugby fans gets people looking at you like you'r insane. On top of that I think he can still learn how to fix the flaws, The others I don't think will ever change.
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Well I stopped reading because my eyes are bleeding. They were immediately drawn to something negative about Tuilagi and I'm afraid my eyes will allow no sight of such insanity.
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Yeah, I get that so let me clarify, Manu is an absolute beast and his potential is unbelievable but he's far from a complete player and has been badly let down by his club and country who have let him continue to play as if he's a raw 18 year old who just wants to get the ball in hand run hard and fast. We shouldn't stop him doing that but we should have worked on his offloading game and ability to pass out of contact so as well as punching holes if they don't double up he can get the ball outside if tackler get drawn into him. The comparison should be Nonu who had a similar physique and the same technical flaws when he broke through but was developed into a rounded player who became the heartbeat of a very strong NZ team. We've badly wasted him so far and rushing him back into the matchday squad when he's half fit doesn't give me much confidence that those mistakes are going to be rectified.
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I'd say that Jones is probably the best person for Tuilagi, and English fans, as I doubt he'll allow a one-dimensional player to be around the team for long.
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I'd say that Jones is probably the best person for Tuilagi, and English fans, as I doubt he'll allow a one-dimensional player to be around the team for long.
That's my hope as well, as I say I think he can fix the flaws and become a great player but he really needs people to tell him he's got flaws rather than all the gushing praise he's met with by everyone. Right now the bench is the right place for him and we should be looking to get Slade in at 12 for the tour.
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I disagree with you a lot on Brown, but only because I don't understand the nuances of his, and the game, but like what I see of him. Today, I did think he was poor and made the wrong decisions when he was (seldomly) involved in the game. In the first half I think we were too slow at the breakdown which leas to too many penalties. But that was team wide.
The problem with Brown, as I've tried to get across a few times, is that he's thick (as a player), that's leads to bad decision making which comes out as:
- His positioning is very iffy at times where he stays too central when teams are attacking down a wing, leaving himself too much to do to get across and cover a missed tackle.
- He misses the 'right' pass too often.
- He runs into other people's space and wastes overlaps.
- He runs into contact without having enough people around him and gets turned over.
- He tries to act the hard man by smashing people in the tackle and ends up selling himself.
- His kicking game is poor, too often he gives the opposition good counter attack ball when he should just find touch.
I won't deny he's a fantastic ball carrier and he's solid under the high ball but like Haskell and Cole the bad things make him a liability and if we want to win the next world cup we can't afford to have those types of players. I have similar concerns about Manu but voicing those around most English rugby fans gets people looking at you like you'r insane. On top of that I think he can still learn how to fix the flaws, The others I don't think will ever change.
I was a big fan of Brown and, after reading certain views, watched his games closely. I have to agree with you, paul, he had a poor tournament.
Everything you've listed above were there to see.
I'm sure that will be addressed.
On a tangent, I have to say that I love reading your rugby posts. You obviously watch a fair amount which gives you a great insight on players.
I don't always agree, but, I can't argue with your knowledge.
Hopefully, I'll be watching more next season.
Looking forward to the Autumn internationals and the Lions
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Stuart Barnes pretty much based his Sunday Times article on Brown and your points Paul. In summary, he is great up to a point - high ball / plenty of cajoles / a decent athlete - but he limits the ability of the team due to his sizeable flaws. To paraphrase, brown is a great player but no team that he plays in will win a World Cup.
An Alan Hutton type player.
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I'm glad people are starting to see it because for years I've pointed these things out and people have looked at me like I'm mad. I just think if you won't pick the best try scorer in England (Wade) because of perceived weaknesses then you're treading dangerous grounds to ignore the weaknesses of the players you have selected.
This week it's particularly easy to target Brown because the last game he did his best to highlight every single one of problems for me and he was, in my opinion, clearly our weak link.
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I'm glad people are starting to see it because for years I've pointed these things out and people have looked at me like I'm mad. I just think if you won't pick the best try scorer in England (Wade) because of perceived weaknesses then you're treading dangerous grounds to ignore the weaknesses of the players you have selected.
This week it's particularly easy to target Brown because the last game he did his best to highlight every single one of problems for me and he was, in my opinion, clearly our weak link.
Stop being so smug ;)
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I'm glad people are starting to see it because for years I've pointed these things out and people have looked at me like I'm mad. I just think if you won't pick the best try scorer in England (Wade) because of perceived weaknesses then you're treading dangerous grounds to ignore the weaknesses of the players you have selected.
This week it's particularly easy to target Brown because the last game he did his best to highlight every single one of problems for me and he was, in my opinion, clearly our weak link.
Stop being so smug ;)
I don't get the chance all that often so I'm going to enjoy it.
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I refuse to agree with paul_e on principle. Even though he's right.
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As an amateur watcher of rugby I've been able to watch Brown and be oblivious to his faults. i have seen paul e's criticisms about Brown before but largely disregard them. But only because not being a big time rugby fan I'm happy in my ignorant bliss. But when I watched the France game I was shocked at just how poor he was. mistakes were highlighted throughout the game, even by way of the commentary team pointing out Brown's poor positional play when stationed in the centre of the pitch as Wales attacked the left wing.
But i'm not sure a good player can be that poor unless the issues were there before. Still, if Jones is minded to give him another game I think you'll see replacements on the bench ready to haul him off. He'll be murdered if he plays like that against the Aussies.
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I refuse to agree with paul_e on principle. Even though he's right.
Awww, I think the the closest thing to a compliment I'll ever get from you so I'm taking it.
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One thing, one plus, with Brown is he is clearly a big character, always at the centre of what is going on.
There's a risk that if you removed him then you'd be removing one of the pulses - not quite the heart beat - of the team.
It might be that Jones sees him a reliable influence to include in the team whilst the youngsters are integrated: Itoje / Daly / Clifford / Tuilagi, even Watson etc. Once that transition has taken place then he might be a less integral part of the team.
I think he'll be 31 by the time the Autumn Internationals anyway so not a bad age to be eased sideways.
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So who are the 3/4 players who Jones is referring to from Grand Slam squad who he's disappointed with?
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So who are the 3/4 players who Jones is referring to from Grand Slam squad who he's disappointed with?
At a guess, Mako, George Ford, JJ and possibly Brown or Watson. Bath have been so poor this year, their players automatically come to mind. Think it's all mind games though 😄
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As an aside to the above question regarding England, does anyone know much about Ben Te'o who's been mentioned in dispatches today for a place on the summer tour? I would have thought with Slade, Manu, Daly and Joseph we'd be covered well enough at centre? That said, if JJ is one of the players who Eddie thinks isn't playing well, then maybe he's under pressure from this fella? When you add in Burrell, Eastmond and Twelvetrees who are not even on the radar at the moment, it's quite incredible our options.
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Ford has gone backwards this year, whereas Farrell has come on miles and is by far the better bet atm. I would play Cipriani ahead of Ford too.
Hopefully it's a blip, because I really did rate him last season, and he could be a grateful 10.
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If you pick on form then cips is the 10 and both 9s get replaced with Robson and Chudley.
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So Wade scored 6 today, good luck to whoever has to explain why he's not on the England tour if he doesn't get selected.
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So Wade scored 6 today, good luck to whoever has to explain why he's not on the England tour if he doesn't get selected.
He's just got to go he's a lethal finisher.
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Squad for the wales game has been announced, remember this is with Sarries, Tigers, Chiefs and Wasps players all ineligible:
ENGLAND TRAINING SQUAD
Forwards
Dave Attwood (Bath)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Charlie Ewels (Bath)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks)
Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Ollie Devoto (Bath)
George Ford (Bath)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)
I'm largely happy with that. I called Lewington as an outside bet in the autumn so it's good to see that England have seen the same potential there. I'm not sure about Haley but he's worth a look and I'm utterly convinced that Sinckler will never make it as an international other than that I'm happy. I'd have been tempted to bring Mallinder in purely to see how he works in the squad but he's not ready yet so I can't argue with them. I'm expecting a tour squad of about 40 and there's 20ish from the playoffs to come in so I suspect there are 5-6 names in this list that will drop away after the Wales match, any of them who don't make the 23 are almost certainly staying home.
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So here's where Mallinder is:
England squad for World Rugby U20 Championship:
Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins)
Darren Atkins (Bath Rugby)
Josh Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Theo Brophy-Clews (London Irish)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Gallagher (Saracens)
Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
George Nott (Sale Sharks)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Harry Randall (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
Stan South (Harlequins)
Will Stuart (Wasps)
Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Walker (Saracens)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Tom West (Wasps)
Johnny Williams (London Irish)
Jack Willis (Wasps)
Not many of them that I know from that list, Marchant and Mallinder have had big seasons for their clubs though and Perkins looks a fantastic prospect, should be worth watching.
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Sliding off-topic, because I know next to nothing about under-20s rugby - the first thing that springs to mind reading that list is just how bloody posh & middle-class rugby still seems to be. In a list of 28 names, there are;
3 Jacks
2 Georges
2 Maxs
2 Harrys
2 Wills (+ 2 Billys)
That's getting on half the squad from 5 first names that, to my mind and having attended an independant school myself that bloody worshipped rugby - producing Harry Ellis & Harry Thacker (two more Harrys!) for the Tigers & England -, scream white (upper-)middle-class families.
It would be interesting (but not so interesting that I can be arsed to take time out of work) to see the comparative variety of the national football and cricket squads and think about how rugby could expand across social classes (or whatever the correct terms may be to encompass income brackets, religious and ethnic backgrounds).
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Sliding off-topic, because I know next to nothing about under-20s rugby - the first thing that springs to mind reading that list is just how bloody posh & middle-class rugby still seems to be. In a list of 28 names, there are;
3 Jacks
2 Georges
2 Maxs
2 Harrys
2 Wills (+ 2 Billys)
That's getting on half the squad from 5 first names that, to my mind and having attended an independant school myself that bloody worshipped rugby - producing Harry Ellis & Harry Thacker (two more Harrys!) for the Tigers & England -, scream white (upper-)middle-class families.
It would be interesting (but not so interesting that I can be arsed to take time out of work) to see the comparative variety of the national football and cricket squads and think about how rugby could expand across social classes (or whatever the correct terms may be to encompass income brackets, religious and ethnic backgrounds).
I think Rugby has done a good job of doing just that in some areas of the country (South-West and London in particular) but in others has completely failed to get any interest in the comprehensive schools. In my opinion it's largely because the quality of coaching just isn't available outside of clubs and public schools.
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And there are very little green spaces available to many comprehensives to play sports such as rugby and cricket.
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And there are very little green spaces available to many comprehensives to play sports such as rugby and cricket.
I'm not sure that's a big problem for rugby. At the age group and level we're talking about you wouldn't have proper scrums, rucks or mauls; you wouldn't have line outs and you wouldn't be encouraging full contact tackling so actually a 20x20 patch of grass where you can get people passing and running and playing a bit of touch would be fine. If you went to the rugby fanzone at millenium point (or probably most of the others) you'd see they had touch pitches setup which were that kind of size and they work well for creating that initial interest.
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I'm not a huge follower of 7s but I did catch a bit from the weekend and was hoping one of the tries would appear on the internet:
WHAT. A. CATCH!
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I'm not a huge follower of 7s but I did catch a bit from the weekend and was hoping one of the tries would appear on the internet:
WHAT. A. CATCH!
Big hands!
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Not many from Gloucester involved for England at whatever level. That said, if you can't get the buggers fit....
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That's been the bring problem for Gloucester, particularly in the backs, the ones that are England quality have either been edged out of the club (Robson) or can't stay fit (Trinder and recently May). After that Morgan is injured but would be with the squad otherwise and Kvesic has been on the fringes for a couple of years so you're pretty well represented in the back row.
It's really the front 5 where you're not represented and, if I'm honest, that doesn't surprise me. The poor front 5 has been the problem for about 5-6 years, it's why you are struggling to make the top half of the league, you just don't have the platform to play from. Even the little quality you do have isn't english; take away Hibbard and Afoa and there's not much left.
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I'm not a huge follower of 7s but I did catch a bit from the weekend and was hoping one of the tries would appear on the internet:
WHAT. A. CATCH!
Scored a very similar try in the prestigious Alcester 7's many, many years ago.
In the final, too.
My team started the game. I sprinted on to the kick off, took the ball on the full, and on under the posts. 5 seconds.
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I've scored one the other way, opposition kicked off, managed to take the catch clean and beat the first tackle and then looked up and there was loads of space so just ran for it, that's the danger if you have too many people rush chasing the kick. The fly-half did get across but I'm 6' 2 and was about 16 stone at the time so at full pace (100m in about 11 seconds) you had to know what you were doing to stop me. If I'd ever learned how to tackle I'd have been a good player, just wasn't aggressive enough.
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I've scored one the other way, opposition kicked off, managed to take the catch clean and beat the first tackle and then looked up and there was loads of space so just ran for it, that's the danger if you have too many people rush chasing the kick. The fly-half did get across but I'm 6' 2 and was about 16 stone at the time so at full pace (100m in about 11 seconds) you had to know what you were doing to stop me. If I'd ever learned how to tackle I'd have been a good player, just wasn't aggressive enough.
Think you and were from the same rugby tackling pod, mate.
Attacking, I was second to none and I could defend, but wasn't the strongest in the tackle.
Even when I was in my mid 40's you heard opposition saying 'Watch the winger, he's fast' That reputation was hard to lose, thank goodness :-)
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I've scored one the other way, opposition kicked off, managed to take the catch clean and beat the first tackle and then looked up and there was loads of space so just ran for it, that's the danger if you have too many people rush chasing the kick. The fly-half did get across but I'm 6' 2 and was about 16 stone at the time so at full pace (100m in about 11 seconds) you had to know what you were doing to stop me. If I'd ever learned how to tackle I'd have been a good player, just wasn't aggressive enough.
Think you and were from the same rugby tackling pod, mate.
Attacking, I was second to none and I could defend, but wasn't the strongest in the tackle.
Even when I was in my mid 40's you heard opposition saying 'Watch the winger, he's fast' That reputation was hard to lose, thank goodness :-)
It's the problem with not getting into the game until I was 17, the early basics just aren't there. I was fine tackling in the fringes but tackling people who were running hard I just never trusted my technique to go low so I'd just try to wrap them instead, just about works at midland 2/3 but step up a level or 2 and you get found out.
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That's been the bring problem for Gloucester, particularly in the backs, the ones that are England quality have either been edged out of the club (Robson) or can't stay fit (Trinder and recently May). After that Morgan is injured but would be with the squad otherwise and Kvesic has been on the fringes for a couple of years so you're pretty well represented in the back row.
It's really the front 5 where you're not represented and, if I'm honest, that doesn't surprise me. The poor front 5 has been the problem for about 5-6 years, it's why you are struggling to make the top half of the league, you just don't have the platform to play from. Even the little quality you do have isn't english; take away Hibbard and Afoa and there's not much left.
Given the brutal nature of the home grown pack I grew up watching in the amateur days it us very much a bugbear of mine.
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Quite a surprising squad in some respects for the Aussie tour.
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Genge and sinckler are picks for the future i think, neither is ready yet.
Harrison staying in is important, i just hope he gets a proper run and gives us that extra quality at the breakdown that's been missing.
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I think Jones is basically saying Ashton won't be getting picked.
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I think Jones is basically saying Ashton won't be getting picked.
Or Wade or Rokoduguni. All of whom are far more dangerous than Yarde IMHO.
Tough on Cipriani too, who has played far better than Ford this season.
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Ford's kicking from tee is unacceptably poor today.
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Ford really needs to sort his kicking out, he's cost us the equivalent of a converted try now. It's not good enough.
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Yep, terrible kicking by Ford.
That finish by Watson though ... he really has turned into the player I thought he would now, truly phenomenal winger.
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Yep was a great finish.
Ford needs to sort this out though, an international kicker cannot be this poor.
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We've coughed up way too many penalties today.
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That's three cracking finishes by England.
Ford misses again.
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9 points now missed by Ford. This is one of the poorest kicking displays I've ever seen.
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Ford's head has gone, I can forgive him missing the conversion for the Watson try, but the other 3 were awful.
There's 4, Clifford has got some jets on him. I don't understand why they were calling it a knock on, the ball clearly went backwards. I'm now convinced that Biggar doesn't understand what a knock-on is and a couple of commentators seem lost by the concept as well.
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Excellent try scoring today and Ford has finally kicked one.
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Scott Quinnell is doing his damnest to be 'impartial' there.
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There was a nice little clip of what Harrison brings with the ball in hand there, shame he's at 6 not 7 so he hasn't been able to get involved in the battle on the floor.
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Fair play to Yarde, brilliant play from 2-3 people in the build up, the hand off by lawes and the turnover/pickup from the floor by harrison were superb, the latter was largely missed by the commentators though.
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This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.
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This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.
The thing Is Ford has done well in game, it's just his tee kicking that has been shocking.
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This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.
The thing Is Ford has done well in game, it's just his tee kicking that has been shocking.
Thing is though as a kicker you can't miss that many kicks.
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This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.
The thing Is Ford has done well in game, it's just his tee kicking that has been shocking.
Thing is though as a kicker you can't miss that many kicks.
Oh absolutely, I'm just frustrated because I think his kicking from hand was good and at times we looked like most of that 23 are capable of much better than we saw, the commentators called it close but in truth we won by 14 and butchered about 15 points on top of that. Considering how good people think Wales are that's a good performance with so many players unavailable.
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I thought it was very encouraging how well the guys who didn't feature in the 6 Nations played. And how fantastic is it to have four locks of the quality of Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes.
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Beating Wales by 5 tries to 1 isn't to be sniffed at especially as they were almost at full strength, they'll get hammered in New Zealand whereas I have a lot more confidence in England getting a series win against the bread stealers this summer, which, followed by a couple of Autumn internationals against Fiji & the Pumas sets us up really well for the 6 Nations in 2017.
When is Jonny May due back from injury?
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JUst watch the U20s beat Italy, was very ragged in places but Harry Mallinder was 2-3 levels above anyone else on the pitch, I reckon he'll be in the full squad for the 6N, he's such a fantastic talent, big, quick, strong, good hands, great kick, runs solid lines and is generally a very smart player. He's got it all to be a genuinely world class 12.
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To add to my post from earlier
https://vine.co/v/i3OiiFeZ6t1 (https://vine.co/v/i3OiiFeZ6t1)
I'm just going to leave that there.
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JUst watch the U20s beat Italy, was very ragged in places but Harry Mallinder was 2-3 levels above anyone else on the pitch, I reckon he'll be in the full squad for the 6N, he's such a fantastic talent, big, quick, strong, good hands, great kick, runs solid lines and is generally a very smart player. He's got it all to be a genuinely world class 12.
Agree, Mallinder must be pretty close to a call up.
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I he Neil's son ?
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I he Neil's son ?
Nope, his dad is Jim (the Northampton head coach and former Sale full-back). I think Neil (I assume you mean the cricketer) is spelt differently.
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Interesting selection for first Test. Surprised to see Yarde start, but good opportunity for Burrell. Not shocked to see Ford dropped for Farrell. Shame there's no involvement for Slade.
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Interesting selection for first Test. Surprised to see Yarde start, but good opportunity for Burrell. Not shocked to see Ford dropped for Farrell. Shame there's no involvement for Slade.
Yarde in for Nowell is the only shock there for me. Burrell had to start after how well he played against Wales, he was the one who made the backline work. I find myself hoping for Brown to take a knock and be replaced by Nowell with Watson going back to 15, that's about the best backline we have available on the tour then (I don't like the 9 and 10 options though, of the 4 the only 1 in anything like good form is Farrell, should be robson, chudley and cipriani in the other spots).
I don't like Haskell at 7 though, he's a 6 and an idiot, I'd really hoped that he's use the tour to give Harrison a proper chance to make the spot his own, maybe when Pocock embarrasses Haskell at the breakdown it will prompt the change that he promised when he took the job.
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Yeah, I don't get Yarde for Nowell either.
Farrell had to start at 10, and Burrell earned his chance.
I would have liked to have seen Goode at 15, given the form he's been in.
Unfortunately, we have the same 6/7 combo as in the world cup, just wearing different shirts, which means we are going to get killed at the breakdown. Again.
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There must be a reason for Yarde over Nowell considering the latter performed well and is a great finisher. Carrying a knock? Jones thinks that more outright speed from yarde against his marker will suit England in this game? maybe he wants Yarde to do a lot of running and then when the Aussie defence are tired to bring on Nowell who can finish well against a tiring defence? There must be a plan.
As for 6 and 7 maybe Jones thinks they deserve a game after being part of a Grand Slam winning team just 3 or so months ago. It sends the wrong message. We're good enough for Northern hemisphere rugby but not against teams from the South. First-half first test and they should be okay and any player being completely dominated can be replaced and we go from there.
The only other one I'm not particularly keen on is Mako V. I don't think he's good enough in the scrum.
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There must be a reason for Yarde over Nowell considering the latter performed well and is a great finisher. Carrying a knock? Jones thinks that more outright speed from yarde against his marker will suit England in this game? maybe he wants Yarde to do a lot of running and then when the Aussie defence are tired to bring on Nowell who can finish well against a tiring defence? There must be a plan.
As for 6 and 7 maybe Jones thinks they deserve a game after being part of a Grand Slam winning team just 3 or so months ago. It sends the wrong message. We're good enough for Northern hemisphere rugby but not against teams from the South. First-half first test and they should be okay and any player being completely dominated can be replaced and we go from there.
The only other one I'm not particularly keen on is Mako V. I don't think he's good enough in the scrum.
The issue is we don't have a 7 on the bench either so the only real option would be to bring on Launchbury and push Itoje back there. He might be ok, he's certainly good over the ball on the floor but unless they've had him training as a 7 it's going to be completely new to him playing there and it's different enough from 4,5 and 6 that I'd be nervous for him.
I agree on Mako, he's excellent off the bench against a tiring side because of the extra mobility he brings but I think I'd have started with Mullan.
On Nowell there's an interview with Eddie Jones on the England rugby facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/OfficialEnglandRugby/videos/10153848889619825/) where he outright says that Nowell "probably a little bit short of where we need him to be" so I assume losing the final has knocked his confidence a bit. It could be an injury but that's not the feeling I get from it, watch the video and see if you agree, it's the only bit where Jones seems a bit unsure of what to say.
Looping back, in the same video he also specifically states that Harrison and Clifford are unlucky to miss out so I do wonder if the back row is likely to change for the 2nd game.
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Jones thinks Farrell's decision making is developing, I agree with that.
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NZ are making a right hash of this at the moment.
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Dealt with it in the end. Now come on England.
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Blimey the Aussies are absolutely slaying us at the moment.
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Great first half come back for England.
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Yep excellent character to come back like that.
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They need to play better in second half to consolidate the lead now.
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Our backrow were terrible for the first 20, he needs to change it up for the next test.
Brown has had a really poor half.
Subbing Burrell when he did was incredibly harsh, i understand why but I think singling him out like that was unfair.
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Yep and it's going to be hard for Burrell to come back from that. Robshaw and Haskell, unsurprisingly, are doing nowhere near enough at the breakdown.
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Great by Haskell, Having a great game.
Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul
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Brilliant by Haskell there and that pass from Ford was great. Hopefully that'll boost his confidence.
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Well I've never been his biggest fan, but I have to admit Haskell was immense today.
And how good were our bench ?
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Agree, Dave.
James Haskell was fantastic.
Pleased for George Ford, too. Did exceptionally well when he came on. Brave move by Eddie Jones to bring him on for Burrell.
Just how good is Maro Itoje?
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Cracking game!
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Great result.
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My heart has just slowed down now after that fantastic last ten minutes wow
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That was fantastic. It could be an epic series as Australia will improve from here.
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England have so much potential now.
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And such a strong bench as well
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The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.
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Great by Haskell, Having a great game.
Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul
The problem with that Burrell sub is that he's the sort of player who lets things get to him, that's probably ended his tour after 25minutes and largely because our backrow were completely incapable of slowing down the ball. I don't disagree that the change did help us but I'm not sure if the cost is worth paying over the 3 matches given that I don't think Burrell was really doing anything all that wrong. I get what they were saying at half time but I genuinely think our problem was much closer to the breakdown.
That brings nicely to the fact that, after 20-25 minutes Haskell was competing with Brown and Robshaw for the most ineffective player on the pitch, I agree that he had a good second half but he was never man of the match, Itoje pretty much kept us in the game single-handedly in the first 25 before we started to boss the set piece and use that to slow the game down and let their indiscipline get us back into the game.
It was a big win but that can't be allowed to stop rightful criticism and the main criticism I have is that we have no pace in our backrow which creates space out wide if teams can get the ball out quickly, we've conceded 2 tries in the corner because of it. The current backrow is the same one that let us down so badly in the last world cup and their deficiencies are being covered by the quality of Itoje right now. Fundamentally Haskell and Robshaw are both 6s and it should be a choice between them, then you pick someone at 7 who either gives you a bit of dog to slow the ball down and let your backs line up or you pick someone with the pace to cover round and fill in the line, Harrison and Clifford give you those options.
The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.
Robson should be the first choice 9, he was immense yesterday.
Add in Mallinder who will clearly step up from the U20s to the main squad over the next year and Nathen Hughes who becomes eligible for the Autumn and we've got a lot of extra quality to come back into this squad.
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Great by Haskell, Having a great game.
Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul
The problem with that Burrell sub is that he's the sort of player who lets things get to him, that's probably ended his tour after 25minutes and largely because our backrow were completely incapable of slowing down the ball. I don't disagree that the change did help us but I'm not sure if the cost is worth paying over the 3 matches given that I don't think Burrell was really doing anything all that wrong. I get what they were saying at half time but I genuinely think our problem was much closer to the breakdown.
That brings nicely to the fact that, after 20-25 minutes Haskell was competing with Brown and Robshaw for the most ineffective player on the pitch, I agree that he had a good second half but he was never man of the match, Itoje pretty much kept us in the game single-handedly in the first 25 before we started to boss the set piece and use that to slow the game down and let their indiscipline get us back into the game.
It was a big win but that can't be allowed to stop rightful criticism and the main criticism I have is that we have no pace in our backrow which creates space out wide if teams can get the ball out quickly, we've conceded 2 tries in the corner because of it. The current backrow is the same one that let us down so badly in the last world cup and their deficiencies are being covered by the quality of Itoje right now. Fundamentally Haskell and Robshaw are both 6s and it should be a choice between them, then you pick someone at 7 who either gives you a bit of dog to slow the ball down and let your backs line up or you pick someone with the pace to cover round and fill in the line, Harrison and Clifford give you those options.
The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.
Robson should be the first choice 9, he was immense yesterday.
Add in Mallinder who will clearly step up from the U20s to the main squad over the next year and Nathen Hughes who becomes eligible for the Autumn and we've got a lot of extra quality to come back into this squad.
Sorry Paul, but, you must have been watching a different Haskell to everyone else who saw the game. 18 tackles and 3 turnovers
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the game, but I think your obvious dislike of him clouds your opinion.
Itoje was great, too, the lad just gets better and better.
There were some massive performances out there today.
I will add that I wish we had a Michael Hooper!!
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Great by Haskell, Having a great game.
Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul
The problem with that Burrell sub is that he's the sort of player who lets things get to him, that's probably ended his tour after 25minutes and largely because our backrow were completely incapable of slowing down the ball. I don't disagree that the change did help us but I'm not sure if the cost is worth paying over the 3 matches given that I don't think Burrell was really doing anything all that wrong. I get what they were saying at half time but I genuinely think our problem was much closer to the breakdown.
That brings nicely to the fact that, after 20-25 minutes Haskell was competing with Brown and Robshaw for the most ineffective player on the pitch, I agree that he had a good second half but he was never man of the match, Itoje pretty much kept us in the game single-handedly in the first 25 before we started to boss the set piece and use that to slow the game down and let their indiscipline get us back into the game.
It was a big win but that can't be allowed to stop rightful criticism and the main criticism I have is that we have no pace in our backrow which creates space out wide if teams can get the ball out quickly, we've conceded 2 tries in the corner because of it. The current backrow is the same one that let us down so badly in the last world cup and their deficiencies are being covered by the quality of Itoje right now. Fundamentally Haskell and Robshaw are both 6s and it should be a choice between them, then you pick someone at 7 who either gives you a bit of dog to slow the ball down and let your backs line up or you pick someone with the pace to cover round and fill in the line, Harrison and Clifford give you those options.
The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.
Robson should be the first choice 9, he was immense yesterday.
Add in Mallinder who will clearly step up from the U20s to the main squad over the next year and Nathen Hughes who becomes eligible for the Autumn and we've got a lot of extra quality to come back into this squad.
Sorry Paul, but, you must have been watching a different Haskell to everyone else who saw the game. 18 tackles and 3 turnovers
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the game, but I think your obvious dislike of him clouds your opinion.
Itoje was great, too, the lad just gets better and better.
There were some massive performances out there today.
I will add that I wish we had a Michael Hooper!!
Not at all, as I said Haskell was very good for the last 55-60 minutes and the stats back that up. The issue is that before that he wasn't competing at the breakdown to slow play down , he wasn't getting around the pitch to fill gaps and he looked like exactly what he is, a 6 who was playing out of position. I don't dislike him anything like as much as you think, I just think he has a tendency to do stupid things when he gets angry (much the same issue I have with Brown, Youngs and Farrell, although Farrell has improved in the last year) which cause us to have a rep for being indisciplined.
Hooper (who you rightly pick out as being a great player) is exactly why our backrow was wrong, we had no way of nullifying his ability to be an extra back because we were letting them get quick ball but we weren't lining up our quick men out wide. To counter that they were all over everything (early on) and we had absolutely no quick ball so by the time we got it out they'd all realigned and we were running into a wall. Unfortunately for them our extra physicality in the front 5 started to tell and made them to go a bit too far in trying to slow the ball which meant penalties, if they'd been a little more disciplined when they were on top I think the game could've been in a very different place at half time but once we had a decent lead we were always favourites.
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Impressive for Ireland that. I flicked off for the football when they were down to fourteen men with three-quarters of the game left and thought no more of it.
Never expected to see they'd won.
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Impressive for Ireland that. I flicked off for the football when they were down to fourteen men with three-quarters of the game left and thought no more of it.
Never expected to see they'd won.
Could have been by more as well, they were immense.
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Ireland were superb, fully desetved their win.
After that i watched the England U20 side demolish the scots, it was pretty embarrassing, dominated everywhere, scotland played ok but England were truly brilliant, finished 44-0 and that flattered the scots.
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Interesting to see how the Aussies rated the players:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/who-starred-and-who-flopped-for-england-during-their-hoodoo-breaking-win-over-the-wallabies/news-story/0ec12c5fcd4dfd14a90bba412c45f7e8
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Interesting to see how the Aussies rated the players:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/who-starred-and-who-flopped-for-england-during-their-hoodoo-breaking-win-over-the-wallabies/news-story/0ec12c5fcd4dfd14a90bba412c45f7e8
Not a million miles off, I'd have had Robshaw as a 7 and I'd have swapped itoje and haskell. I think they were generous to Brown who had another poor game, he's been out of form for about 18 months now and really shouldn't be on this tour.
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Interesting to see how the Aussies rated the players:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/who-starred-and-who-flopped-for-england-during-their-hoodoo-breaking-win-over-the-wallabies/news-story/0ec12c5fcd4dfd14a90bba412c45f7e8
Not a million miles off, I'd have had Robshaw as a 7 and I'd have swapped itoje and haskell. I think they were generous to Brown who had another poor game, he's been out of form for about 18 months now and really shouldn't be on this tour.
I'd have had Haskell a 9.9 ...... just kidding paul :-)
For me they are about right.
Unfortunately, I have to agree on Mike Brown, bit of a fan of Brown, but, you're right, he hasn't been playing particularly well for 18 months. Surprised Alex Goode hasn't had a crack, or even a back line of Yarde, Nowell & Watson
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Does anybody know where there are links to the highlights of yesterday's games? I don't have Sky so haven't even seen the tries.
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Impressive for Ireland that. I flicked off for the football when they were down to fourteen men with three-quarters of the game left and thought no more of it.
Never expected to see they'd won.
I did the same
Just watched the highlights. By then I'd heard that they'd won but as I watched the interception try by SA, I still could see how Ireland had hung on. Superb defence.
Definite Red Card for me. It might not have been deliberate but that charge was one of the most reckless things I've seen on a rugby field for a long time.
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Does anybody know where there are links to the highlights of yesterday's games? I don't have Sky so haven't even seen the tries.
Not sure how long this will be available for:
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This is the link I used
http://www.rugbystream.net/live/watch-england-vs-live-stream-rugby-free/
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Got to say that the three rugby internationals have pissed on the football for entertainment so far. Admittedly I'm guessing about the NZ v Wales match but I fail to see how that cannot have been a rollercoaster of a game. Impressive (for rugby) considering they're friendlies that a fair few players would probably prefer to be elsewhere.
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Got to say that the three rugby internationals have pissed on the football for entertainment so far. Admittedly I'm guessing about the NZ v Wales match but I fail to see how that cannot have been a rollercoaster of a game. Impressive (for rugby) considering they're friendlies that a fair few players would probably prefer to be elsewhere.
Believe me, Dante, these games are the real deal, and the players are exactly where they want to be.
I'd go as far as to say that there's no such thing as a 'friendly' in rugby.
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Got to say that the three rugby internationals have pissed on the football for entertainment so far. Admittedly I'm guessing about the NZ v Wales match but I fail to see how that cannot have been a rollercoaster of a game. Impressive (for rugby) considering they're friendlies that a fair few players would probably prefer to be elsewhere.
Believe me, Dante, these games are the real deal, and the players are exactly where they want to be.
I'd go as far as to say that there's no such thing as a 'friendly' in rugby.
Agree, there's nothing friendly about england vs aus or wales vs NZ and SA probably don't understand the concept of word.
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I agree (excluding the Barbarians). But that just emphasises the difference in application and force of will.
Most of the northern hemisphere players would be better off resting than being part of this tour (hence why Australia have not called up their players based in france) but they've all turned up and put in massive performances whereas the footballers still seem to be toying with each other. Hopefully the football will ignite in the last group game and knock out phases.
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Brilliant, thanks Paul e
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World of difference though Dante. The teams at the Euros are in Group stages where 1 defeat even in the first game could see you more or less sent home unless something drastic happens. Not losing becomes more important to a lot of teams. Rugby games are usually one of affairs and even the 6 Nations is only 5 games where 'winner takes all'. Again, its very rare you see a draw in rugby given the high points total so teams start with a win or lose mentality. A game rarely ends 0-0 ( I vaguely remember 1 in Wales in the late 80s/early 90s? There was also a 1-0 in rugby league around that time).
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I vaguely remember the 0-0 in Wales (I'll go along with 80s) and I think there was one in Bristol as well.
However, I can't remember any of the teams involved
I've witnessed a couple of 3-0 games
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I vaguely remember the 0-0 in Wales (I'll go along with 80s) and I think there was one in Bristol as well.
However, I can't remember any of the teams involved
I've witnessed a couple of 3-0 games
I've played in a 3-0 - we won with a penalty in the last few minutes with both sides having missed 5-6 kickable ones, was on a mudpit in the rain/fog and we barely got in each others 22 let alone stood a chance of a try, comfortably the worst game I've ever been involved in, I was playing 8 and came off after an hour because I had nothing left from pick and drive through treacle (we had about 60-70 scrums because of knock-ons). Ball was a bar of soap, both teams were in brown and the rain/fog was so bad at one point that you couldn't see the posts from the halfway line. I'd love to see some of the 7s players have a go on a pitch like that.
Anyway, back on track, it's absolutely right you don't really get the 'all hands to the pumps style defensive performances in rugby because you just can't defend for 75 minutes and then nick it at the end, certainly not at international level you have to score points or they'll get enough drop-goal/penalty opportunities to kill the game long before the end. The gritty, grind it out results tend to be more like Japan vs SA in the world cup where you give everything up front and at the breakdown and earn the right to create try scoring chances through sheer will.
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I vaguely remember the 0-0 in Wales (I'll go along with 80s) and I think there was one in Bristol as well.
However, I can't remember any of the teams involved
I've witnessed a couple of 3-0 games
Played in a 0-0 at school vrs Leamington school
and a 3-0 when I was playing for the Fire Service down in London. It was blowing a gale force wind diagonally across the pitch. It was a case of which team got a kickable penalty in just the right place.
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
How?
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
How?
They all had no arms.
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
How?
They all had no arms.
Someone forgot to put the baskets up.
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
That must be as close to impossible as you can get
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
That must be as close to impossible as you can get
It can't be far below a cricket limited over game being a 0-10 to 0-10 draw in terms of the most unlikely results ever.
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
That must be as close to impossible as you can get
It can't be far below a cricket limited over game being a 0-10 to 0-10 draw in terms of the most unlikely results ever.
Played in a house game at school where we bowled out the other lot for under 10. Four rings a bell.
I was pretty useless with the bat and couldn't bowl, but I was a great fielder in the slips
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
That must be as close to impossible as you can get
It can't be far below a cricket limited over game being a 0-10 to 0-10 draw in terms of the most unlikely results ever.
Played in a house game at school where we bowled out the other lot for under 10. Four rings a bell.
I was pretty useless with the bat and couldn't bowl, but I was a great fielder in the slips
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/news/10791347/Wirral-Cricket-Club-3-all-out-in-freak-performance.html - I doubt anyone will ever match that.
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Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
Was that the Tony Pulis v Alex McLeish All Star game?
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Anyone care to make a prediction for tomorrows second test in Melbourne? I'll go England by 6.
Craig Joubert is the referee, apparently Australia officials attended England's pre match briefing with Joubert which although is allowed very rarely actually happens, seems they have beef with how the game was officiated last week.
It's also Robshaw's 50th cap on Saturday.
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Anyone care to make a prediction for tomorrows second test in Melbourne? I'll go England by 6.
Craig Joubert is the referee, apparently Australia officials attended England's pre match briefing with Joubert which although is allowed very rarely actually happens, seems they have beef with how the game was officiated last week.
Not a Rugby Guru , but what didnt they like ?
It's also Robshaw's 50th cap on Saturday.
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Anyone care to make a prediction for tomorrows second test in Melbourne? I'll go England by 6.
Craig Joubert is the referee, apparently Australia officials attended England's pre match briefing with Joubert which although is allowed very rarely actually happens, seems they have beef with how the game was officiated last week.
Not a Rugby Guru , but what didnt they like ?
It's also Robshaw's 50th cap on Saturday.
They're Australian, they'll fucking moan and whinge about anything and everything.
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I think Australia by a considerable amount. 15 or 20.
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What didn't they like? Losing!
For the game I have england by about 14. I think our front 5 are far too good for them andxthey won't cope with it.
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Full highlights of the 1st test - Aussie TV
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I think Australia by a considerable amount. 15 or 20.
I would be absolutely astonished if that happened.
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I'm naturally nervous when it comes to England or Villa.
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Wales pushing the All Blacks again.
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Link for England vs Australia
http://www.vipbox.nu/rugby/393195/1/australia-vs-england-live-stream-online.html
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Wales pushing the All Blacks again.
Like a cat playing with a mouse.
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7 - 0 ..........England
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Lets just have an extra 4 mins because the time judge blows his hooter 2 seconds late!!!
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England winning 10 - 7
Just started 2nd half.....me thinks this is going to be close
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Brilliant performance from England. The defence has been outstanding.
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What didn't they like? Losing!
For the game I have england by about 14. I think our front 5 are far too good for them and they won't cope with it.
Ok 16, was close enough!
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Unbelievable stuff, brilliant.
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Special credit to Ford, his game management was superb, Hartley wad brilliant as well, the captaincy has nudged him to a new level.
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Plenty of heroes out there today.
Itoje, Words can't be found for how good this lad can be
Haskell, great, again.
Robshaw, MotM, best game for England?
Must mention George Ford, fantastic character to come back from a hounding vrs Wales.
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Plenty of heroes out there today.
Itoje, Words can't be found for how good this lad can be
Haskell, great, again.
Robshaw, MotM, best game for England?
Must mention George Ford, fantastic character to come back from a hounding vrs Wales.
And Eddie Jones of course
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All the backrow were terrific today.
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Plenty of heroes out there today.
Itoje, Words can't be found for how good this lad can be
Haskell, great, again.
Robshaw, MotM, best game for England?
Must mention George Ford, fantastic character to come back from a hounding vrs Wales.
And Eddie Jones of course
Spot on, mate, so easy to forget his impact.
He's made some big calls this tour and, imo, has been right on them all
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Special credit to Ford, his game management was superb, Hartley wad brilliant as well, the captaincy has nudged him to a new level.
I'm sure Eddie Jones mentioned recently that Ford is world class in that department.
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ireland bullying sa now
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What skill for the Irish try to palm the ball back like that just as it looks like it's going into touch.
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Eddie Jones has been incredible for England. I thought Farrell was very good today too.
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With ten minutes to go the tackle count was 50 Aus v 150 England. Incredible that they won the game, it's a big statement.
Thoughts on the refereeing of the Scrum? I think the Aussies, or the pitch, was given the benefit of the doubt a number of occasions where we should have had a penalty. Any front rows out there understand it better than a wussy back?
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Eddie Jones has been incredible for England. I thought Farrell was very good today too.
With what is essentially Lancaster's team bar a few exceptions he's turning them from no hopers to genuine contenders for a shot at the title, incredibly well done
Oh and let's not forget the Saxons won their series in SA yesterday as well, the future is indeed bright for England rugby.
8 on the bounce now for Eddie, a win next week and I'll be looking forward to numbers 10 and 11 in the 2 Autumn tests at Twickenham.
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Today's full match highlights
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Today's full match highlights
Cheers for posting peter w. Interesting to hear a different style of commentary
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Yeah I like to listen to how the other side see it. i remember from 2003 and it's the same here, when they're losing to England they don't half whinge.
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I was in Australia during the 2003 WC ( not for the tournament, just coincidence) and they were mighty whingeful. However from the moment the final finished they were very gracious.
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Apart from Howard.
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They call us whinging poms but fuck me do they ever bitch and whine if they don't get everything their own way.
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Annoying scheduling to have the U20 semi on at the same time as the football but 12-3 after 15minutes and we're running rampant against SA.
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Annoying scheduling to have the U20 semi on at the same time as the football but 12-3 after 15minutes and we're running rampant against SA.
Could be a red card here as well, horrific clash in the air leading to a tip tackle. Ref has been pretty lenient and given it as a yellow, was right on the edge.
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19-3 now after 28, England could easily have another couple of tries, just a couple of handling errors when we had a try in hand.
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up to 64mins, 34-17 now after a good fisrt ten in the 2nd half for the boks, we're back on top again now though.
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finished 39-17 and that probably doesn't show how much better England were, I honestly thought 50 points looked on. The last England try was a thing of absolute beauty, 70-80 yard break with about 10 pop passes donw the 5 yard channel, just ripped them apart.
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Was that the Semi? if so who do we meet (Arg or Ireland right?).
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...it's all here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36577645
The strength of the youngsters is impressive. The fact that the league structure is so weird (when the 6-nations is on) seems to ensure that the players are blooded into the teams too.
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Was that the Semi? if so who do we meet (Arg or Ireland right?).
Ireland in the other semi and they looked good as well but I don't think there is much between the packs and Englands biggest strength is the midfield, Mallinder, Williams and Marchant at 10, 12 and 13 is far too good with all 3 being well established in the club first team squads. Against SA we just overloaded them in midfield and the got it wide and burned them with pace in the 5 yard channel, 4 tries came from that and I can't see Ireland stopping it either becuase the quality of those midfield runners pins defenders in, all 3 will destroy you if you leave gaps.
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Highlights - https://www.facebook.com/OfficialEnglandRugby/videos/10153877703954825/ - the 3rd try (especially the way the 15 passes out of the tackle to straighten them up) and the last try are superb.
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1 change for the last test, Harrison in for Haskell with the other 22 in the squad as they were. I'm happy for him, he's the form back row player in europe right now so he deserved some game time on this tour, and at 7 so he can really show what he can do. Shame for Haskell who i assume hasn't recovered from the knock that made him come off (he couldn't run when he came off but I'm not sure what he did).
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Shame for Haskell? You'll be saying that Andy Goode deserves a spot but unlikely because of the magnificent Mike Brown, next.
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No my issue with Haskell has always been that he's a. not a 7 and b. makes stupid mistakes. In the last 6 months he's improved on the latter of those to the point where his place in the squad is much harder to argue against. I still think that him and Robshaw at 6 and 7 isn't a long term solution though and that's where my real anger lies at the selections.
Alex (not andy) Goode being the obvious replacement for Brown has actually had the opposite effect of tempering me calling for him to be dropped, Goode just doesn't have the pace to be an international fullback and no amount of good club form will make up for that. I honestly believe Brown has been the worst player on the pitch for 2 games running, I don't rate him at his best and right now he's woefully out of form and should never have been taken on the tour let alone start all 3 games.
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Wales are getting a tanking here.
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I hope England don't take the cricket team's approach to the last match in a series.
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Cracking game, Harrison swapped in tactical change a la Burrell.
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Potentially exciting finish on BBC2 Scotland of any of you feel like watching more rugby.
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Good game, I think the Harrison change was very harsh, yes we had some issues at the breakdown but they didn't suddenly go away and he was taken off when we'd just gone back into the lead, being taken off before half time is a real mark of dishonor, to do that to 2 players in a 3 match series when both had earned the right to be involved feels a little bit like he saying that only the people who'd trained with England during the 6N were capable of fitting into the squad, which doesn't really offer much incentive for people on the edges of the squad.
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Just enough in the tank to get over the line today, not sure if Australia targeted Brown from restarts but the number of times they had 2 or 3 backs all over him could have cost us even dearer than it ultimately did. The mobility of the back line swung it combined with the fact we took what was offered up, Australia didn't.
3-0 was fully deserved an amazing turn around from RWC.
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Unbelievable stuff. Jones should be knighted!
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Phenomenal stuff from England
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I'll say another thing Farrell has come on massively as a player.
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Fantastic result, fantastic series. I agree with previous posters Eddie Jones has transformed us into a force, which, will get better and better
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I hope my post earlier didn't come across as negatively as it reads back now, i think the referendum was still too fresh which made me sound angrier than i was.
The result was very good, the series has been brilliant and i think it's now pretty clear that there is a top 2. I also think the 9 wins in a row show up just how poor a coach Lancaster was.
Moving on the U20s utterly demolished Ireland in the final, Mallinder was utterly brilliant again, i honestly think he'll be in the full squad by the autumn.
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Fantastic result, fantastic series. I agree with previous posters Eddie Jones has transformed us into a force, which, will get better and better
The interesting thing is Eddie Jones was not particularly happy after the whitewash last night. That's the sign of a coach who thinks a lot of improvement can be made.
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Jones has been brilliant and has turned us into a winning side, who will only get better. Farrell's game has massively improved under him.
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There are few sights more beautiful than watching Australian tv Rugby pundits, most of whom took part in a pre-tour tv ad deriding England's chances, having to eat humble pie. They were gutted.
Hasnt stopoed them still banging on about scoring more tries than England in 2 out of the 3 matches though. You'd think that it was only tries that counted.
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There are few sights more beautiful than watching Australian tv Rugby pundits, most of whom took part in a pre-tour tv ad deriding England's chances, having to eat humble pie. They were gutted.
Hasnt stopoed them still banging on about scoring more tries than England in 2 out of the 3 matches though. You'd think that it was only tries that counted.
Easy response to that OZVilla. Just remind them of the number of penalties they gave away, spoiling play at the breakdown. If they hadn't kept doing this England would have scored a lot more tries.
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There are few sights more beautiful than watching Australian tv Rugby pundits, most of whom took part in a pre-tour tv ad deriding England's chances, having to eat humble pie. They were gutted.
Hasnt stopoed them still banging on about scoring more tries than England in 2 out of the 3 matches though. You'd think that it was only tries that counted.
Easy response to that OZVilla. Just remind them of the number of penalties they gave away, spoiling play at the breakdown. If they hadn't kept doing this England would have scored a lot more tries.
thanks, I'll remember that one JD but funnily enough no ones really mentioning it, which is weird because after beating us at the WC last year there was a flipping chorus line of them wanting to talk Rugby. Strange that!
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In Wales at The Australia bar, Pothmadog, pretty quiet, as you can imagine e 😊
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Any highlights about? Missed it yesterday.
Thanks in advance.
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Oz press taking it well :)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClzCWZPUgAQMki9.jpg)
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Jones has been brilliant and has turned us into a winning side, who will only get better. Farrell's game has massively improved under him.
I think it's more subtle than that, I think Jones has given him the confidence to play for England like he has been for Saracens for a good couple of years now. Either way, he's definitely playing better in a white shirt than he was before Jones took over.
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What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.
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What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.
I think the way Bath played all season shows that if that was likely, you should drop Ford and move Farrell to 10.
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What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.
I think the way Bath played all season shows that if that was likely, you should drop Ford and move Farrell to 10.
I'm not sure that would solve the problem. If the pack is going backwards then we need to start moving big units about. I'd suggest that Ford has a better tactical kicking game and is definitely better from the hand. Not as good when kicking for the posts and physical impact but otherwise I'd still suggest he's a better players. Admittedly the gap has closed significantly.
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What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.
I think the way Bath played all season shows that if that was likely, you should drop Ford and move Farrell to 10.
I'm not sure that would solve the problem. If the pack is going backwards then we need to start moving big units about. I'd suggest that Ford has a better tactical kicking game and is definitely better from the hand. Not as good when kicking for the posts and physical impact but otherwise I'd still suggest he's a better players. Admittedly the gap has closed significantly.
Exactly I think we need to find a genuine alternative at 12 and start picking 2 from 3 depending on the opponent. I thought Slade might be that player but Jones doesn't seem convinced. By the next world cup I suspect that Mallinder will have forced the issue, given the record of winning captains moving into the main squad within a few years (Itoje and Clifford) I think he's certain to be well on the radar. If he plays with Ford he gives you the extra distance and accuracy from the tee and if he plays with Farrell his tactical kicking is superb. Being 6' 4 and a bit of a brick shithouse helps a lot as well.
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Sam Burgess. Remember him? No thought not.
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What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.
Christ you're the LTA of the International Rugby thread aren't you. So far in the last year you've been anti Haskell, Farrell, Robshaw, Brown and I'm sure there are others that I've missed. When Haskell played well against someone in the 6 Nations i posted a journo's breakdown and you posted a long reply on how they were wrong and you were right.
Haskell has been brilliant, Robshaw too, and you your reply is 'yeah but I'm right because they should be playing so and so in so and so, not at so and so'. Farrell has come on leaps and bounds under Jones - which started under Lancaster but you want to point out that again you wouldn't play Farrell at 12 and you know better than Eddie Jones.
We've won 3-0 on the back of a Grand Slam and surely, surely, you can just sit back relax enjoy the moment and think, maybe Eddie Jones knows slightly more than I do? Relax man, England are winning, the sun is shining, leave your negativity for when we're losing.
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Sam Burgess. Remember him? No thought not.
If they hadn't tried to shoe-horn him into the side a year before he was ready I think he'd still be playing union and would've played a big part going forward, as a linebreaking runner he could've been the best in the world, just like he is in League, but he needed to learn to time his runs which is the major difference for a crash runner between the 2, for league the pass is easier to predict because quick ball is guaranteed.
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Sorry for being lazy, but does anyone know a good link for highlights of Saturday's game?
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Sorry for being lazy, but does anyone know a good link for highlights of Saturday's game?
Try this
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153888997419825&id=48835794824
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Thank you. I will watch tonight.
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Gatland named as 2017 Lions tour ahead coach, cue a team full of fat, unfit out of form Welshmen.
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Gatland named as 2017 Lions tour ahead coach, cue a team full of fat, unfit out of form Welshmen.
If the 6N goes the same as last season anything less than 17-18 English players in the squad will be a joke.
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I don't like a kiwi taking them to New Zealand either.
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I'm pleased it wasn't Eddie Jones.
He can concentrate on the England job.
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If he sets up the team like he did in Aus we'll get massacred.
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Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.
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9 tries, not too shabby, I'm looking forward to watching England open them up at Twickenham in a few weeks time.
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I think Jones needs to look at these training camps. Across Judo and intense fitness work that's now Jones, Watson and Nowell out for the Autumn.
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Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.
A bit of both to be fair, this is the same bok side that deservedly lost to Japan remember. New Zealand are the world number one, quite clearly, and England are the world number 2, again quite clearly. After that you have a bunch of sides who can match those 2 in 1 off games (maybe) but are a long way short of being able to hit that level consistently. SA are just in that group but only if they can put out their best 15.
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Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.
A bit of both to be fair, this is the same bok side that deservedly lost to Japan remember. New Zealand are the world number one, quite clearly, and England are the world number 2, again quite clearly. After that you have a bunch of sides who can match those 2 in 1 off games (maybe) but are a long way short of being able to hit that level consistently. SA are just in that group but only if they can put out their best 15.
The All Blacks have a scarily good squad at the moment and that's the big difference between them and everyone else. All the changes they make during a game makes they stronger as they are replacing world class players with players just as good. There is lots of competition for places at the moment and they could probably field three teams that would beat most other countries (sadly).
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Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.
A bit of both to be fair, this is the same bok side that deservedly lost to Japan remember. New Zealand are the world number one, quite clearly, and England are the world number 2, again quite clearly. After that you have a bunch of sides who can match those 2 in 1 off games (maybe) but are a long way short of being able to hit that level consistently. SA are just in that group but only if they can put out their best 15.
The All Blacks have a scarily good squad at the moment and that's the big difference between them and everyone else. All the changes they make during a game makes they stronger as they are replacing world class players with players just as good. There is lots of competition for places at the moment and they could probably field three teams that would beat most other countries (sadly).
I agree, that's why England are 2nd as well, The 2nd 15 would be a match for most sides.
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I was going to post something similar. Kvesic would be an automatic pick for most international sides by way of example. He can't get in our squad.
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I was going to post something similar. Kvesic would be an automatic pick for most international sides by way of example. He can't get in our squad.
Ben Morgan is 3rd choice at 8, Lawes struggles to make the bench, Cipriani can't make the squad.
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And all of them piss over Scotlands options, by way of example.
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Just under 3 weeks now until England start their Autumn Internationals at Twickenham with the visit of the Springboks.
Let's have your predictions for the series as follows.....
November 12 England v South Africa 14:30 Twickenham
November 19 England v Fiji 14:30 Twickenham
November 26 England v Argentina 14:30 Twickenham
December 3 England v Australia 14:30 Twickenham
A tough opener and closer and the Pumas won't be easy, neither will the physicality of the Fijians, a proper good test of Eddie Jones' & Englands credentials coming up.
I'll go with.....
England to beat SA by 6
England to beat Fiji by 18
England to beat Arg by 10
England to beat shackle dragging convicts by 38
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With all the injuries in various positions I think all games could be a lot closer, John.
I can't wait to see our back row, we could very well be fielding 3rd/4th choices in those positions.
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Sunday was my first visit to HQ in 30 years.
Not impressed at all
A poorly designed mass of concrete
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Beat SA by about 10
Beat Fiji by 20-25
Beat Argies by 15
Beat Aus by 7
SA look a weak side, I think I might have been a bit generous to them if I'm honest. We'll batter Fiji, they haven't got the pack to compete with us. Argies are better than ever but they're still very reliant on their pack and our backline will pick them off. Aus is the tougher one to call, we mullered them in the summer but with Itoje missing I do wonder if we'll be able to boss them at the breakdown. I think the final tour game (40-44) is the one that we should be looking at for hints and I expect a big scoring game.
In terms of injuries it's only really 7 that's got big question marks. The announcement of the squad tomorrow will be very interesting.
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Ashton seems to have given up on playing for England again - signed for Toulon for next season.
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Ashton seems to have given up on playing for England again - signed for Toulon for next season.
I think England gave up on him first when he didn't get included in the summer training squad.
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Squad for Autumn internationals.
Forwards
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
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Very disappointed with his choices at 9, he's getting very close to having to give up any suggestion of picking players on form, Care in particular has been in poor form for about 18 months whilst Robson is clearly the best 9 in the country.
I'm worried we're going to see Robshaw at 7 where he's been proven to be totally out of his depth but we'll see. On the wings it will be interesting, I suspect Yarde and 1 from May or Roko.
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There's a interesting interview with Jones on the Beeb about Wood who he calls a 6 and a half (same as Robshaw) where he seems to suggest that he could play Wood and Robshaw at 6 and 7 but then he also says Harrison is probably the first choice at openside. It's all very interesting because I think he sees Wood as an option for his ability in the line out but knows that Harrison would give us better balance in open play. Should be interesting but I can already see him picking a 6/2 bench so he can have harrison/wood and hughes without giving up cover in the front 5. If he sticks with ford, farrell and JJ as the midfield I suspect we'll see Slade or Daly on the bench along with Care to give him the best options.
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How shit were Wales today?
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How shit were Wales today?
Haven't seen it but from the result I'm guessing about as shit as Wales usually are when they play Aus or NZ.
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Incredible result there for Ireland. For a bit it looked like a repeat of 2013....
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Well played Ireland.
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Brilliant result for Ireland, I can honestly say I didn't think they had that in them.
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Looks like Wood and May will start. Also is Daly covering full back?
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Seems as though Daly is starting at 13 on Saturday and Eddie's thinking of a 6/2 split on the bench. Marler, George, Sinckler, Atwood, Beaumont and Hughes covering the forwards.
Have a ticket and as always, looking forward to it
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Surely JJ is starting isn't he?
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Surely JJ is starting isn't he?
Seems not, journos are saying that Daly has the nod over him. There is some suggestion of a slight injury, but Neil Hatley said today everyone is fit and ready to go.
Can never read Eddie can you?
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I pugged out for a debenture a while ago so I'm at all 4 games, taking along a few friends and even the wife gets an outing vs Australia, gotta keep her sweet to make up for 4 weeks on the lash.
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A couple of poor penalties and a few too many kicks, but brilliant try for May, made by a bit of genius from Daly.
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Bit of a struggle this.
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Bit of a struggle this.
UKR Sr turned up here at two O'clock to watch the match on Sky.
He's just abandoned due to frustration and driven off again :)
EDIT.....and therefore missed the Lawes try by about a minute
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South Africa score their first try of the day
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Why wouldn't you just kick the 3 points there? If you're going to kick it out anyway?
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The first SA try was a shocker of a decision but England are deserved winners. A few superb performanes in there.
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The first SA try was a shocker of a decision but England are deserved winners. A few superb performanes in there.
I'm not counting that try. It's the sort of decision that should see the referee immediately banished from the sport.
England were good at times, but there should be much more to come
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Mixture of excellent from England with a few bits of real sloppiness.
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Got to watch for those defensive errors.
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Watching it back it was a terrific performance by Youngs today.
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Poor South Africa team, but, still a great result for this England team.
My MotM was Ben Youngs, but, I was a back after all 😊
There were some big performers out there, so no problem with Joe Launchbury.
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No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM? Ok Launchbury put a shift in but really a MOTM performance?
Anyway, great day at Twickenham, Lawes, Billy and May all superb, Robshaw gets better and better at 6.
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Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today. He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.
I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision. Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.
Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.
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Got to say Paul I think your being harsh on Youngs. The pack was great, but he was fantastic in his own right.
Farrell really is developing superbly as well.
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Got to say Paul I think your being harsh on Youngs. The pack was great, but he was fantastic in his own right.
Farrell really is developing superbly as well.
I think you misunderstand me. Youngs was superb yesterday, all i mean is that there won't have been a 9 in the world who doesn't look at that game and wish they could play with a pack like that.
He used the advantages the pack gave him brilliantly and, as the saying goes, controlled how much we won by, but the victory was decided by the forwards and in particular the 2nd row.
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Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today. He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.
I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision. Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.
Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.
Sorry, Paul, I see what you're saying.
By saying it was a poor SA team I didn't mean poor team as in poor squad of players.
I should have said that It was a poor SA team performance, and that was due to England's performance.
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Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today. He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.
I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision. Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.
Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.
Sorry, Paul, I see what you're saying.
By saying it was a poor SA team I didn't mean poor team as in poor squad of players.
I should have said that It was a poor SA team performance, and that was due to England's performance.
Then we agree. I only mention it because I saw a few others comments about them now having lost 5 in 6 and therefore it's not that big a win (it'll be no surprise to hear they're from the Welsh people) which is quite clearly nonsense.
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Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today. He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.
I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision. Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.
Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.
Sorry, Paul, I see what you're saying.
By saying it was a poor SA team I didn't mean poor team as in poor squad of players.
I should have said that It was a poor SA team performance, and that was due to England's performance.
Then we agree. I only mention it because I saw a few others comments about them now having lost 5 in 6 and therefore it's not that big a win (it'll be no surprise to hear they're from the Welsh people) which is quite clearly nonsense.
No mention of our 5 or 6 out, though 😊
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No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?
His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb
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No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?
His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb
du Toit - how they thought he was suitable to have as a flanker I'll never know, far too slow (and immobile) to be a modern back row, compare and contrast with Robshaw and Wood.
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No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?
His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb
du Toit - how they thought he was suitable to have as a flanker I'll never know, far too slow (and immobile) to be a modern back row, compare and contrast with Robshaw and Wood.
I have never played the game though I enjoy the internationals, and I honestly thought du Toit sold himself far too easily, good dummy though it was.
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No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?
His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb
du Toit - how they thought he was suitable to have as a flanker I'll never know, far too slow (and immobile) to be a modern back row, compare and contrast with Robshaw and Wood.
I have never played the game though I enjoy the internationals, and I honestly thought du Toit sold himself far too easily, good dummy though it was.
Absolutely, he was areal weak link for them as a fringe defender
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Some truly brilliant play from England so far but this is showing the reason why Fiji haven't been invited into the Championship yet, totally out of their depth defensively.
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Some ropey defending in the middle of the game but that's another showing of why we're such a good side, we have so many threats. Roko was outstanding, Daly and JJ were excellent and the pack were as solid as always. We had 10 minutes either side of half time where the levels dropped and they scored a few which needs to be dealt with but there are a lot of positives there. We have genuine competition for places all across the backline now, which is great.
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Some ropey defending in the middle of the game but that's another showing of why we're such a good side, we have so many threats. Roko was outstanding, Daly and JJ were excellent and the pack were as solid as always. We had 10 minutes either side of half time where the levels dropped and they scored a few which needs to be dealt with but there are a lot of positives there. We have genuine competition for places all across the backline now, which is great.
Very much my take on it, too.
Game was pretty much over after 15 mins.
I also thought George Ford had a good game, he run the backs excellently, again.
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Yeah, I should've included Ford as well but I focused on the players who seem to be less secure in the team from the backs. I'm still not convinced by Goode, 2-3 times he tackled high on players much bigger than him and got bounced, unforgivable in a fullback and that adds to a shocking start under the high ball in the first minute. He did ok going forward but I don't think he's good enough, expecially with the competition available, to be picked for that alone.
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Given how many first choice players were out it was a great result. Jones has also had a dig at Wales. He is absolutely the man to make England great again.
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Post match interview
What was the dig at Wales?
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That's an advert for british gas not the interview!!
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The strength in depth of the England squad is exceptional. What is required now, to close the gap with NZ, is for 5 or 6 of the squad to become genuinely and constantly world class.
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The strength in depth of the England squad is exceptional. What is required now, to close the gap with NZ, is for 5 or 6 of the squad to become genuinely and constantly world class.
I honestly don't know how big that gap is any more. I also don't think we're far off from your requirement. That are genuinely world class I think you have Itoje, Billy V and Watson as definites and Farrell is very close. I'd then say that Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Hartley, Ford, Robshaw and JJ are all capable of world class performances but maybe not consistently enough. I think that's a hell of a base to work from and I suspect Daly will add his name to the world class list before long and if Roko keeps going as he is he'll be there as well.
In the backs I find it quite stunning that if you were to pick our best backline now you end up with Slade, JJ/Daly (there's nothing between them for me, this is the biggest selection headache he has right now), Nowell and May fighting over 2 bench spots, that is ridiculous depth, all of those would start regularly for most other national sides. Then on top of that you have people like Robson and Cipriani not even making the squad.
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Tuilagi too. He's the forgotten man nowadays which might be a good thing as he can concentrate on developing his game rather than being the big hope for English rugby.
From the above do you eventually see Slade playing inside centre and one of Ford/Farrell being dropped?
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Tuilagi too. He's the forgotten man nowadays which might be a good thing as he can concentrate on developing his game rather than being the big hope for English rugby.
From the above do you eventually see Slade playing inside centre and one of Ford/Farrell being dropped?
I think 10/12 is going to be very interesting over the next few years. Ford and Farrell have shown their quality at this level but Slade is superb and then you have Cipriani as the best 10 in the league and Mallinder as the most exciting young back in the country. I wouldn't want to predict the starters in those positions come the World cup, it's going to be some really tough calls. 9 is interesting as well because he can't ignore the form of Robson for much longer and once he gets in I suspect he'll very quickly make the position his own. Robson has a big advantage of being a converted 10 which means his game is much more rounded than most English SH's.
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Ford potentially leaving Bath could have an impact too. Where he goes and what affect that has on his development could make or break his career.
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Ford potentially leaving Bath could have an impact too. Where he goes and what affect that has on his development could make or break his career.
I agree but I don't see much in the rumours for now, they came about because his dad got sacked, he's in contract until 2018 and Bath don't want him to go. I doubt anything will change next summer at least and then we'll see. If he does move on I think Tigers would be a bad decision but I don't know if anywhere in England would be a good move for him, Saints would probably be the best but I'm far from convinced it would be right for him.
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You seem to have come round to Farrell a bit Paul, how come?
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Ford potentially leaving Bath could have an impact too. Where he goes and what affect that has on his development could make or break his career.
I agree but I don't see much in the rumours for now, they came about because his dad got sacked, he's in contract until 2018 and Bath don't want him to go. I doubt anything will change next summer at least and then we'll see. If he does move on I think Tigers would be a bad decision but I don't know if anywhere in England would be a good move for him, Saints would probably be the best but I'm far from convinced it would be right for him.
He has activated a clause in his contract which means he can re-negotiate/leave at the end of this season. Bath reckon they can still command a fee so far from definite that he will be leaving. Saints would be a very good fit.
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I think Farrell has stepped up in the past year. I think his improvement is 50% because of Saracen's dominance but also 50% because Farrell has looked at Ford's game and identified areas he needed to improve. He will always be the better post kicker however he's getting close to matching Ford's attacking play, especially ball in hand.
Too often, under Lancaster, England would be dominant but not turn positions into 7 points. I don't think that would be the case now.
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I know, about the clause, I just don't see how it will play out, that's what I mean, the whole thing is a mess. My concern with linking anyone to saints right now is that I don't think Mallinder will be there next season and that leaves a lot of questions to be answered.
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That's an advert for british gas not the interview!!
Oops, cheers mate, bit of a URL faux pas 😯
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Post match interview
What was the dig at Wales?
I suspect it was Jones's belated response to Gatland's comments regarding England's whitewash of Australia and Gatland saying that Australia weren't all that, obviously Wales got beat by Australia again last week so just a friendly dig at Gatland and his one dimensional Wales team.
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He also said they were complacent against Japan.
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I didn't see any of the Ireland v All Blacks game but two Kiwis have been cited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38045809
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I didn't see any of the Ireland v All Blacks game but two Kiwis have been cited.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38045809 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38045809)
Didn't watch this so I as waiting for some highlights before commenting.
however I haven't found any that cover them so full game it is: - I won't embed it - EDIT: it appears I have no choice in the matter, ah well, that's new since the great blackout.
1st one is about 12:45 in and I think he'll get away with it. It's clumsy but his left arm wraps and right shoulder makes contact with the head after. To give him a ban they'd need to believe that contact is intentional and I'm not sure they can do that.
2nd one is tougher about 1:04:45, should've been red rather than yellow at the time for me. It's dangerously high, is a professional foul (in that there's a try scoring chance if he doesn't make contact) and is a straight arm with no attempt to wrap it. I suspect a 2-3 game ban for that one and a telling off for the ref and touch judge for only giving a yellow, nasty challenge.
Other comments - 2nd try is controversial, I'm not sure if he grounds it, I'm pretty shocked that the ref asks the TMO if he's certain and gets a yes in response, it's borderline at best. 3rd try should never have been allowed, the last pass/offload goes forward and from the shape of his body when he releases there's absolutely no chance of it going level/back. Shocking decision to allow it for me.
Onto England, I think Launchbury is fucked with his citing, definite ban coming there I'm afraid, no excuses his foot/shin clearly makes contact with the head. 2-4 weeks I'd guess given he has a good reputation.
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Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
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And there you go, 2 weeks for Launchbury, no shock at all. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38058098
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Good timing for Kruis to come back.
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Rokoduguni and Goode sent back to their clubs.
I thought they they had decent games.
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Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.
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Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.
Why not Saints? They typically run at a profit and have numerous new youth players so the salary cap should not be a problem, plus the fact that Myler has been 'steady' for the past few seasons without ever looking top class. From my perspective, albeit local, they are a bigger club too.
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You seem to have come round to Farrell a bit Paul, how come?
Missed this one. Simply he's grown up. He had a chip on his shoulder when he broke through which caused him to do stupid things and meant his all round game wasn't international standard but he got picked because of his kicking. He's a far more rounded player now.
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NZ citings have come back, no further action for Cane as it was judged an accident and 1game ban (which is effectively season ending) for fekitoa with a 'wrong card' slap on the wrist for the officials. About as i suspected but i forgot to account for the end of the season for the ban. Good to see them making good decisions like that.
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I've got no interest in rugby at all. Don't understand the rules to start with because we never even played it at school but did I hear correctly the other day that the Fiji players were on £400 a man for the game against England? Is that right? the game must have grossed millions yet the players get nothing out of it? what happened there?
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I've got no interest in rugby at all. Don't understand the rules to start with because we never even played it at school but did I hear correctly the other day that the Fiji players were on £400 a man for the game against England? Is that right? the game must have grossed millions yet the players get nothing out of it? what happened there?
Probably not far off. That's why so many players elect to play for other nations. If every international currently playing who was born in Fiji played for them they'd have given us a much closer game.
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That's about right, the RFU paid a fee to Fiji as a goodwill gesture, they don't have to pay it, but it's pocket money really. All of Fiji's costs are met by the IRB for a tour like this, hotels, food, air fares etc. The disparity is really because the big teams rarely if ever return the favour and play in Fiji, England last played there in 1991. England players earned £22k each allegedly.
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Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.
Why not Saints? They typically run at a profit and have numerous new youth players so the salary cap should not be a problem, plus the fact that Myler has been 'steady' for the past few seasons without ever looking top class. From my perspective, albeit local, they are a bigger club too.
Certainly bigger than Sale but bigger than Gloucester is debatable.
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Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.
Why not Saints? They typically run at a profit and have numerous new youth players so the salary cap should not be a problem, plus the fact that Myler has been 'steady' for the past few seasons without ever looking top class. From my perspective, albeit local, they are a bigger club too.
Certainly bigger than Sale but bigger than Gloucester is debatable.
On the last decade I'd say saints have pulled a fair way ahead of glaws, only really sarries and tigers compete with saints in that period.
Longer term you're right but I think there would be few current players who wouldn't pick saints on the balance of the squads.
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Looking good for England at the moment, 12 wins on the bounce. Two winnable games coming up and back to back Grand Slams thus breaking NZ's recent record 18 wins on the trot on the process, easy!
Never quite that simple of course but we do look to have finally found a 9,10,12 combination that releases the back line and gets us looking like making breaks and scoring tries. The strength in depth of the front 8 is frightening, we have four world class locks for starters. Exciting times for English rugby.
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I'm not completely convinced by the 10 + 12 combination, unless it's sole purpose is to create for the back three. Either Ford needs to learn to attack/break the line more often or Farrell needs to become more of a crash player.
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I was reading the comments on the BBC today and a few people were suggesting Daly as England's future fullback.
He certainly seems more of a 'head-up' player compared to Brown and can kick, however I've no idea what hr is like under the high ball. I think he's got the potential to add a extra dimension to England's game, especially as it means Joseph can also be selected.
Thoughts?
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I was reading the comments on the BBC today and a few people were suggesting Daly as England's future fullback.
He certainly seems more of a 'head-up' player compared to Brown and can kick, however I've no idea what hr is like under the high ball. I think he's got the potential to add a extra dimension to England's game, especially as it means Joseph can also be selected.
Thoughts?
He came through as a full back and looked very solid under the high ball. I think it's definitely an option to look at him back there. The only 'problem' I have with it is that I think Watson is better at full back than on the wing and the wing options we have are immense. The thing is whatever team we pick in the outside backs we're going to be leaving some fantastic players in the stands (or back with their clubs), just like 2nd row.
I think people talking about the fullback options is good though, I've shared my opinion on Brown lots of times so I won't repeat it but in the last year I've seen more and more people spotting the same flaws I've seen in him since he broke through and I honestly think that 15 is now our weakest position based on the Elite squad. The real issue is that there's no one obvious to bring in who plays the position week in week out. Haley looks a decent prospect but he's about it and I'm not convinced he's of the standard needed. For that reason I'm all for giving Daly a shot there but I doubt it'll happen before Italy now.
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Not impressed with the ref here, by the law it's a red but to give nothing for the one against May a few minutes later is poor.
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Refereeing was poor today, very poor, no complaints about Daly's red, he lost control of the scrum and the 15 minutes of nonsense at the end of the first half was diabolical. I had ref link and some of the shit he was saying was beyond belief.
Robshaw was immense again and fully deserved MOTM today. Real shame for Billy and hopefully Brown can shake off the dead leg.
Bring on the shackle draggers.
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Great result in the end, think the ref was harsh to give Marler a yellow (I don't disagree with his thought process but an international match where a team have already had a 'letter of the law' red isn't the time to make a point), their guy is getting a VERY long ban, that's right up there with the worst stamps you'll ever see. Back to Daly I don't think there was any malice in it, he just got himself in a bad position and panicked a bit, I hope that will see the ban limited to just the 1 game. Watching back I still think the ref got it wrong not to give a yellow for the guy taking May in the air, it was the actions of May that stopped it from being just as bad as the Daly one, not the actions of their player.
Aside from that I thought the pack played superbly and JJ and May were excellent given we were a back short for 76minutes. The defensive work deserves credit as well with 14 points coming when we had 13 vs 15 which would stretch any team.
Still, all said, It's shown another side of this England team.
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Agree, Paul.
I suppose ref had no option with Daly red, the Argentine chaps misdemeanour was exactly the same but May managed to keep upright. Definitely yellow, could have had no complaint if it had been red, though.
Thought Robshaw was fantastic, again. New lease of life at 6
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Robshaw was always a 6, that's why I used to get so frustrated at him playing at 7, we looked lopsided and I felt bad to be blaming him for it but I just couldn't understand why he, as captain, didn't have the guts to say he was playing in the wrong role. Just to be clear because I lumped the pack into a single group, Robshaw was brilliant today and deserved the motm award (but a few other forwards pushed him hard, Wood, Kruis and Lawes in particular all put in fantastic shifts). I find it quite amusing that for years we had a great front row but couldn't find a back row to compliment them and now all of a sudden then locks and back row have all shot past the front row options (although Mako is becoming a big player for us now that he's learning to scrum). Cole is my real worry in the pack, he's been the weak link for the last year or so. I think we really need 1-2 of Sinckler, Hill and Brookes to step up and take that place now.
Absolutely with the Daly red, as I said it's a letter of the law red and that particular rule is 1 of 2-3 that they're really clamping down on. The others are neck rolls and stamping, basically anything targeting the head and neck, the rules and the recent update sent out to all registered refs and all clubs makes it very clear that this isn't to be tolerated at any level. I'm all in favour, I've played 4 games that were suspended because of injuries and 3 of them were for exactly these type of incidents (2 broken necks, 1 from overly aggressive clearout work the other from a shoulder on head clash where the tackler went off his feet with no arms and a fractured skull from a stamp). What I don't accept is that player lands on shoulder = red, player turns and manages to land on side = penalty only. That makes a mockery of the rules and makes me think that players may, in high profile games, be seen to have done the wrong thing by protecting themselves. The rule, and interpretation, needs to be more about the actions of the offender and not the landing position of the victim. Watching the 2 back I'm convinced that the main difference between the red and the pen is that Johnny May is flexible enough to twist himself out of a bad landing and his team have ended up being 'punished' for it.
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Robshaw even more so as England captain, nevermind that he's a player representing his country, would never say he was playing in the wrong role. I think it's hugely misguided to think any player ever would say anything other than they'd play wherever asked for their country and there is no such thing in that respect as playing in the wrong role. Quite simply, and this is backing up your oft banged-in point that he wasn't/isn't a 7 that he was been outstanding as a 6.
I agree (with my limited knowledge) that an upgrade on Cole is now needed and Jones is canny enough to have seen where he perceives weaknesses in his team to be. Good to see Sinckler take his chance yesterday in his brief cameo. He'll be putting pressure on Cole and although he's unlikely to start against Australia he'll probably get another 20 minute audition before the 6 Nations.
As for Daly - yes a red and I have a modicum of sympathy for the ref with the Argentinian player. Because of the way May landed it was easy for the ref to interpret tat the player either pulled out of the tackle or it simply wasn't dangerous and so by landing on his feet it was just a penalty. This is where my knowledge of the rules fall down - what is the letter of the law? If there is any margin of error then I can see why the ref erred on the side of caution so as to not sin bin a player because an English player was sent off.
I thought the neck roll one was definitely more dangerous but the pace the game is played at it is a lot harder to definitely say that it was deliberate, and even if not the position of the player's bodies going into the tackle and the speed they entered into the contact also has to be considered. I'm not saying the referee got it right yesterday but can appreciate the difficulty in getting it absolutely right and where inconsistencies lie.
As for the stamp? Well that twat should be able to book his holibobs to Patagonia for a very long time.
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Billy V out for 4 months, had a knee op yesterday and likely to miss all of the 6N.
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big miss. Huge. He has really epitomised the new England probably more than anyone.
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Phenomenal player who will be hugely missed. It does mean we get to see Hughes in his natural position though and his offloading game could come in useful against the better sides.
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A few observations from the game:
Hartley looks a decent captain. The gesture when Daly was sent off was classy and the huddle behind the posts when Argentina scored also showed decent leadership.
Sinkler impressed me. Can't comment on his scrummaging but looked mobile and had good awareness in the loose.
JJ - Really impressed. Previously his attacking play has stood out, whereas on Saturday his defence and ability to compete for the ball immediately after a tackle probably saved England as it slowed the ball enough that the extra man was not as obvious.
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JJ has always been a very strong defender but it's easily overlooked when you see him breeze past 3-4 players. Greenwood and Guscott both called him out as the most promising young centre we had (ahead of Manu) a few years back when he was breaking through at Irish and both said that his defensive qualities were superb and separated him from most young centres who have to learn that side of the game.
Sinckler is a tough one for me, his technique in the scrum is dreadful (but better than a few years ago when he honestly didn't know what he was doing) and he's got a very suspect temprament but if he can contain the latter and work on the former he has the physicality, pace and stamina of a back row. I think Hill is a better all round prospect though and I suspect longer term Hill will start games and Sinckler will finish them.
Hartley is a fantastic captain, he showed that at Saints and he was genuinely the stand out choice when Jones came in. The worry (although that's not the right word) is that George and Taylor are improving very quickly and once they get the consistency at the lineout and fix the small technical errors they have in the scrum their play in the open will elevate them above him. When the time comes it will be interesting to see how it's handled.
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3 week ban for Daly, they started with 6 and then reduced it based on record, etc. 6 weeks for that would've been a terrible over-reaction, even 3 is pretty heavy handed.
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Any danger of Ben Morgan coming back in next week? He had a huge game carrying for Gloucester yesterday.
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It's going to be a massive test this weekend with all our players missing.
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Any danger of Ben Morgan coming back in next week? He had a huge game carrying for Gloucester yesterday.
Ben Morgan is a must.
Great n.o 8 for me.
Don't know a lot about Nathan Hughes, but he must be pretty decent to keep Morgan out
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I really like Morgan but he is missing half a yard of pace which makes a big difference at the top level.
Hughes is a fantastic player, his ofloading game is superb but the best bit, for me, is his work in disrupting mauls, he just seems to slip through and get hands on the ball carrier with ease, and does it going straight through the middle, it's a very rare skill.
This sums him up pretty well -
Specifically watch how often he has the ball in 1 hand when he's running so he can keep it away from contact and keep it alive. The Wade try towards the end of the clip is the best example, that's what I mean by his offloading game.
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It's going to be a massive test this weekend with all our players missing.
They're not all missing ;)
But yes Itoje, Haskell, Billy V, Daly it's going to be a big ask and a close one at that but I think England will shade it if we can keep the intensity and slow the convicts down at the breakdown.
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I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
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I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion. It was phenomenal.
Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them. Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.
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I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion. It was phenomenal.
Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them. Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.
This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?
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I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion. It was phenomenal.
Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them. Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.
This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?
In all honesty I'd like us to keep working on the set piece play for both of them and try to get them into the side at 4 and 5 with Robshaw, Hughes and Billy as the back row. Add Mako, Sinckler and George and you've got the most mobile pack the game has ever seen and we'd be able to defend more like a league team, commit very few, keep the width but pounce when there's a chance for a turnover. It only works if they can hold their own in the scrum though. In the line out Lawes has become and excellent organiser and Itoje has a great leap on him.1
We can be the best team in the world if we focus on fitness and mobility, that's where the professionalism of our players and our clubs stands us ahead of any other country in the world.
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Hughes & Yarde in the starting 15 for Saturday, have to say I like the look of that side to face the shackle draggers.
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I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion. It was phenomenal.
Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them. Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.
This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?
In all honesty I'd like us to keep working on the set piece play for both of them and try to get them into the side at 4 and 5 with Robshaw, Hughes and Billy as the back row. Add Mako, Sinckler and George and you've got the most mobile pack the game has ever seen and we'd be able to defend more like a league team, commit very few, keep the width but pounce when there's a chance for a turnover. It only works if they can hold their own in the scrum though. In the line out Lawes has become and excellent organiser and Itoje has a great leap on him.1
We can be the best team in the world if we focus on fitness and mobility, that's where the professionalism of our players and our clubs stands us ahead of any other country in the world.
Paul e,
Whilst I understand your reasons for putting Lawes in as number 5, do you think that he should start in front of a fully fit George Kruis ? He was running the line out calls in last season's 6N & the Australian tour and has the huge advantage of playing his club rugby with Itoje. I think that England are blessed with probably the best current crop of second rows in international rugby and maybe even the best lot that England have ever had. Far more, like other people have said, I think England need replacements / other options for Mike Brown and Dan Cole. I see that Alex Goode once again dropped the first high ball shown by ITV in their Premiership highlights of the Saracens v Gloucester game last weekend ! With my Sale hat on, I think that Mike Haley could be an option for the 15 shirt, but probably not for another 12 months. He had an outstanding tour with the Saxons to South Africa during the summer before he got injured. I think that there are a number of young props that could take Cole's [place in the near future.
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I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion. It was phenomenal.
Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them. Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.
This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?
In all honesty I'd like us to keep working on the set piece play for both of them and try to get them into the side at 4 and 5 with Robshaw, Hughes and Billy as the back row. Add Mako, Sinckler and George and you've got the most mobile pack the game has ever seen and we'd be able to defend more like a league team, commit very few, keep the width but pounce when there's a chance for a turnover. It only works if they can hold their own in the scrum though. In the line out Lawes has become and excellent organiser and Itoje has a great leap on him.1
We can be the best team in the world if we focus on fitness and mobility, that's where the professionalism of our players and our clubs stands us ahead of any other country in the world.
Paul e,
Whilst I understand your reasons for putting Lawes in as number 5, do you think that he should start in front of a fully fit George Kruis ? He was running the line out calls in last season's 6N & the Australian tour and has the huge advantage of playing his club rugby with Itoje. I think that England are blessed with probably the best current crop of second rows in international rugby and maybe even the best lot that England have ever had. Far more, like other people have said, I think England need replacements / other options for Mike Brown and Dan Cole. I see that Alex Goode once again dropped the first high ball shown by ITV in their Premiership highlights of the Saracens v Gloucester game last weekend ! With my Sale hat on, I think that Mike Haley could be an option for the 15 shirt, but probably not for another 12 months. He had an outstanding tour with the Saxons to South Africa during the summer before he got injured. I think that there are a number of young props that could take Cole's [place in the near future.
I think Launchbury and Kruis are exceptional locks but I think Itoje and Lawes are as well and they could both easily play back row at international level because they're so mobile. It's that extra mobility and pace that I find attractive. being more pragmatic in truth I'd probably start one of the former for the extra weight in the scrum and assurance at the line out and then replace them after 50-55 with the running power and mobility Lawes. Don't forget though that Lawes has been the main line out caller (with Hartley) for Saints for a couple of years so his link up shouldn't be dismissed.
Fundamentally Itoje and 1 from 3 is the main aim and results in a world class pairing whatever you choose, I'd honestly back our locks as the best set ever in the sport, and they've all got at least 2 more world cups in them if they avoid major injuries.
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The squad for the aussie game was released earlier - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38167545
M Brown (Harlequins); M Yarde (Harlequins), J Joseph (Bath), O Farrell (Saracens), J May (Gloucester); G Ford (Bath), B Youngs (Leicester)
M Vunipola (Saracens), D Hartley (Northampton, capt), D Cole (Leicester), C Lawes (Northampton), G Kruis (Saracens), C Robshaw (Harlequins), T Wood (Northampton), N Hughes (Wasps).
Replacements: J George (Saracens), J Marler (Harlequins), K Sinckler (Harlequins), C Ewels (Bath), T Harrison (Northampton), D Care (Harlequins), B Te'o (Worcester), H Slade (Exeter).
Now I like Yarde more than most people but how the fuck is he ahead of Roko? Other than that it's about the best we can do right now and I reckon there's enough there to see them off and record win number 14 but we really need to have the intensity right from the start and to not ease off.
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Aussies really want this one you can tell. They've had a bit of a shocker sporting wise lately so they need this.
Plus im on a Christmas boozy boat trip tomorrow with a load a rugby supporting Aussies. One whose particularly gobby.
Is it too much to ask for an England/Villa double?
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Aussies really want this one you can tell. They've had a bit of a shocker sporting wise lately so they need this.
Plus im on a Christmas boozy boat trip tomorrow with a load a rugby supporting Aussies. One whose particularly gobby.
Is it too much to ask for an England/Villa double?
Got to be worth a small flutter on that double
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This is the worst 15 minutes I've seen.
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Better now.
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Absolutely awful. No intensity, no skill, just nothing.
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Haven't seen much but not playing great so far. However only 3 down after being battered for a half is fine for me and we have the bigger impact from the bench so I'd still make favourites unless they can stretch it to a 10+ lead early 2nd half.
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Only positive is the score. Horribly meak display so far.
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This is much much better. Intensity is up.
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Another win.
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Again only caught bits but Hughes seemed to have a good 2nd half and our quality blew them away in the end.
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In the second half we were superb. Youngs was magnificent.
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Shit for 15 minutes and then totally outclassed the convicts.
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Hughes had a good game and we barely missed Vunipola. Clearly different players though as Hughes is less direct and would often drift sideways and ran out of pitch, which created some issues. Hughes is quicker though and I'd imagine covers more of the pitch.
The simple fact that we were missing Vunipola, Haskell and Itoje from the forwards and matched them is pretty incredible.
Add Watson and Daly (Tuilagi possibly) from the backs and there another 10-15 points potentially missing.
Finally, the best bit, is that most of stand out performances are coming from the younger players and often with replacements coming through. They will be a better team by the time the world cup comes around.
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For the second week running I thought Robshaw could have been MOTM, Youngs was probably the right choice though his dummy outside that opened the line up for his try was sublime.
Hooper and Pocock went awol in the second half and Australia looked out on their feet after 50 minutes.
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Hughes had a good game and we barely missed Vunipola. Clearly different players though as Hughes is less direct and would often drift sideways and ran out of pitch, which created some issues. Hughes is quicker though and I'd imagine covers more of the pitch.
The simple fact that we were missing Vunipola, Haskell and Itoje from the forwards and matched them is pretty incredible.
Add Watson and Daly (Tuilagi possibly) from the backs and there another 10-15 points potentially missing.
Finally, the best bit, is that most of stand out performances are coming from the younger players and often with replacements coming through. They will be a better team by the time the world cup comes around.
Agree with that summary, Dante.
Although, I find it hard to see where Tuilagi could fit in to the way we're playing at the moment.
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Hughes had a good game and we barely missed Vunipola. Clearly different players though as Hughes is less direct and would often drift sideways and ran out of pitch, which created some issues. Hughes is quicker though and I'd imagine covers more of the pitch.
The simple fact that we were missing Vunipola, Haskell and Itoje from the forwards and matched them is pretty incredible.
Add Watson and Daly (Tuilagi possibly) from the backs and there another 10-15 points potentially missing.
Finally, the best bit, is that most of stand out performances are coming from the younger players and often with replacements coming through. They will be a better team by the time the world cup comes around.
Agree with that summary, Dante.
Although, I find it hard to see where Tuilagi could fit in to the way we're playing at the moment.
I've thought that about manu for a while, i think I've been more critical of him than most because I've always been concerned that he makes us 1 dimensional. I think I've likened him to Bent before, good player but the better he plays the weaker the rest of the team looks. Given the choice I'd honestly have JJ and Daly ahead of him at 13 and he's even further back at 12.
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Great line from one of the Sunday papers today.
'Ben Youngs sells more dummies than Mothercare'
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The best thing you could say about the team is that most people no longer talk about Tuilagi and when he's due to return.
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Started watching the French Super 14 on Sky Mix, it's easy to see why the French national team are struggling. The last game I saw was Toulon v Bordeaux, I think you'd have had a job sorting a French XV from the two teams.
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Started watching the French Super 14 on Sky Mix, it's easy to see why the French national team are struggling. The last game I saw was Toulon v Bordeaux, I think you'd have had a job sorting a French XV from the two teams.
That's 1 of 2 problems with the french league. The other is the obsession with being massive. For years French backs had a reputation of being immensely talented but not liking the rough stuff and they seem to have taken it to heart. It's at the point where if you're level with a french side with 10 to go you know that gaps will appear because they're all so big they struggle to get around the park. In their domestic game it means the play is MUCH slower than any other major league in the north or south.
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Just to put it out there, Gatland, Farrell, Howley and Borthwick is a fucking ridiculous coaching team. How Farrell is anywhere near a backs coach job after the abomination he was involved in at the world cup is beyond me. The only one of the 4 who deserves the job is Borthwick.
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Just to put it out there, Gatland, Farrell, Howley and Borthwick is a fucking ridiculous coaching team. How Farrell is anywhere near a backs coach job after the abomination he was involved in at the world cup is beyond me. The only one of the 4 who deserves the job is Borthwick.
Amen to that. Howley has been awful as well.
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I don't see any hope for the Lions. They needed fresh ideas to take on the All Blacks. Gatland's success in the previous tour should be tempered by the fact that Australia were rubbish. Also the style he played would fail against the All Blacks.
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I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.
I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.
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I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.
I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.
Isn't Howley interim coach at Wales, standing in whilst Gatland coaches the Lions. Bizarre.
I also read the Fiji 7s coach was being approached. I actually quite like the idea of that as long as he's not solely responsible for any key strategies.
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I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.
I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.
Isn't Howley interim coach at Wales, standing in whilst Gatland coaches the Lions. Bizarre.
I also read the Fiji 7s coach was being approached. I actually quite like the idea of that as long as he's not solely responsible for any key strategies.
Currently that's Gareth Baber not sure he's who you mean, maybe you mean their former 7s coach Ben Ryan? Ben was coach at Newbury, my local team and led them to National Divison 1 playing some amazing rugby on the way, he was poached by England to head up 7s and also worked with the Saxons before leading Fiji to Olympic gold in Rio. He's out of a job right now so maybe he would have been a good choice for The Lions.
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I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.
I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.
Isn't Howley interim coach at Wales, standing in whilst Gatland coaches the Lions. Bizarre.
I also read the Fiji 7s coach was being approached. I actually quite like the idea of that as long as he's not solely responsible for any key strategies.
Currently that's Gareth Baber not sure he's who you mean, maybe you mean their former 7s coach Ben Ryan? Ben was coach at Newbury, my local team and led them to National Divison 1 playing some amazing rugby on the way, he was poached by England to head up 7s and also worked with the Saxons before leading Fiji to Olympic gold in Rio. He's out of a job right now so maybe he would have been a good choice for The Lions.
Ben Ryan is a superb coach, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the reason Saints were happy to part with King.
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I was referring to Fiji's Olympic 7s coach, so presumably Ben Ryan.
That said, no idea where I read it.
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Robshaw out of the 6N.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38559130
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Robshaw out of the 6N.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38559130
No surprise, looked nasty when he did it. I suspect that's either Wood in at 6 or Itoje moving back there. I'm not sure it's that big a blow, 6 is a position where we have lots of depth.
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They should have the Six Nations in the Summer in non-World Cup/Euros years. I doubt I'll be able to watch many of Scotland's games due to Villa.
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They should have the Six Nations in the Summer in non-World Cup/Euros years. I doubt I'll be able to watch many of Scotland's games due to Villa.
Won't happen, they like their 3 international windows (autumn internationals, late winter 6N and summer tours) and I can't see it ever changing.
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Forlorn hope that the Sweaties don't pick Matt Scott again for the 6 nations.....
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Robshaw out of the 6N.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38559130
No surprise, looked nasty when he did it. I suspect that's either Wood in at 6 or Itoje moving back there. I'm not sure it's that big a blow, 6 is a position where we have lots of depth.
Moving on from this we now have a real problem in the Front Row with Mako and Marler both out
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This is when fringe players need to step up to the plate, or, we discover a couple of gems
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What is the likely starting front row?
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What is the likely starting front row?
I'd have thought Matt Mullen, Dan Cole & Jamie George
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It isn't dreadful. Just not as good as it could be. Those further back in the pack should make the difference. I am counting on a big tournament for Hughes as a new guy.
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What is the likely starting front row?
I'd have thought Matt Mullen, Dan Cole & Jamie George
Hartley will start if he proves himself fit.
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Hartley will start if fit, Jones has pretty much said as much. The additional injuries will probably make him an even more attractive option as his experience could be crucial.
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What is the likely starting front row?
I'd have thought Matt Mullen, Dan Cole & Jamie George
Hartley will start if he proves himself fit.
And so he should, paul.
My front 3 were if he wasn't, though.
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Fingers crossed that he sees the light and brings Robson in, he's been the best 9 in Europe for at least 12months, he's just as dangerous around the fringes as Youngs (as his excellent try this weekend showcased) but brings far better passing and kicking skills. He also has a great understanding with Hughes who will obviously come in at 8 with Billy V out. Good to see Launchbury play, gives us 3 top drawer locks to pick from and with Wood in exceptional form we're looking good at 6. It will be interesting to see what he does at 7, Harrison is playing well again and Jones likes him but he hasn't really foudn his feet at international level yet. Maybe a 6N campaign is what he needs right now. either way we're going into a defence of our 6N title with an entirely new back row because of injuries and I don't think we're significantly weaker, that's where our genuine depth makes such a big difference. Will be interesting to see how Mullan and Genge get on at loosehead as well, 2 more who wouldn't have expected to be in the 23 if everyone was fit, Genge in particular looks like he could be a bit special off the bench, him, Sinckler/Hill and George from the bench for the last 20 weakens our set piece but all of them would've been back row players a decade ago with their mobility and technique.
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Is Itoje back yet?
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He played at the weekend, think he's about 3-4 games in now so unless he picks something up he'll be fit to start.
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6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.
Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm. Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.
One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.
Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.
Final table..........
England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy
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I honestly don't know what Scotland, Wales and French teams will turn up so I wouldn't dare call positions for them but I agree that it looks like England or Ireland for the title. I'd go with England purely because we have so much impact from the bench that it's a trump card in close games and I can't see any of the teams having enough to build a big lead against us.
I have no idea what to think about Italy, every time they take a step forward and look like they really belong in the tournament they fall back again but I suspect you're right that they'll be bottom again.
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Wales will be like SHA are with us, don't care about the other games but all out again England ;)
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6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.
Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm. Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.
One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.
Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.
Final table..........
England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France 3rd??
I think Scotland could be the surprise team. Ireland, Wales and Italy at home
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We will win it. We have too much strength in depth for the others.
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6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.
Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm. Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.
One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.
Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.
Final table..........
England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France 3rd??
I think Scotland could be the surprise team. Ireland, Wales and Italy at home
You seriously expect me to put Wales and Scotland above them? They're improving, if they turn up they're always a force.
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As I say, there is, for me, a whisker between the 3 of them, I wouldn't bet on anything in this one, I think the irish are strong but they could get pulled into that mid-table mess as well because they don't have great depth in some positions, an injury or 2 would really hurt them.
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I would be staggered if England won given the injuries to key players. If we did I think the All Blacks would sit up and notice given the strength in depth that we would be demonstrating.
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6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.
Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm. Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.
One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.
Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.
Final table..........
England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy
France 3rd??
I think Scotland could be the surprise team. Ireland, Wales and Italy at home
You seriously expect me to put Wales and Scotland above them? They're improving, if they turn up they're always a force.
I think Scotland certainly could, and as Paul says there's not a lot between the 3 of them.
France do have Scotland and Wales at home which might be key decider.
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England U20s absolutely smashed France today 59-17
The conveyer belt just keeps running.
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Jocks winning but their scrum is crap.
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This will be knocking the irish
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Some poor defending at times from the Irish but they held on through sustained pressure from the sweats just before half time. A great opening half.
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Almost brilliant from Carney
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Great result for the jocks. What's interesting is that they've taken Farrell as coach and they have the same defensive weaknesses out wide that England had in the world cup. I don't understand how he hasn't been found out.
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Not a great start.
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Too many stupid pens.
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Hmm France are going to win this. Looks like they're finally waking up from their decade-long slumber.
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Poor and really complacent half.
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They're much sharper and more intense.
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No accuracy at the moment.
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Got away with that. Really poor performance and Itoje was a million times better once he moved back to the second row.
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Just home from Twickenham, probably as bad as Lancaster's last throes in terms of not having any ideas.
Referee didn't help, he had a very poor first 30 minutes.
Haskell had a huge impact, Ford kicked possession away far too much and our lineout looked very shaky to start with. That said the French had one opportunity in the second half and they took it, we cut out the penalties and probably should have come away with at least another 10 points, I haven't seen possession and territory stats for the second half but it certainly felt like we were in their half a good while. The rolling maul also clicked in the second half, I think we'll do ok next week against the sheep botherers.
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Itoje has to play in the second row, his influence on the game noticeably grew once he moved there.
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I think there are a few key things from that.
Itoje isn't a back row.
The May yellow was very harsh.
Their big prop will, in my opinion, be cited for leading with his elbow on Hughes.
I missed most of the 2nd half taking the kids to a party but I'm disappointed that we didn't push on and dominate it, i think we'd done a good job handling their physicality and our mobility really should've been enough to run awat from then later on.
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It was one of those days today. Nothing came off and it was really disjointed, and France played well. Itoje just starts in the second row and that debate should be ended. Excellent cameos from Haskell and Te'oo, they won the game.
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Really poor performance. Shockingly bad in the 1st half. France played with far more intensity and seemed more motivated. Got out of jail. Can't see us playing that bad again
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Not great.
Cant blame the ref, but, he did make 3 or 4 big errors.
The one where he called the ball out, then gave a penalty when Wood dropped on it. Maybe I missed something there?
Yes, May's yellow was harsh,but, the legs came up.
The French yellow at the end was a red, for me.
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The May certainly was harsh - he said it was out and then said Wood couldn't drop on a ball as it emerged from the ruck (or was it maul I can't remember). It was a fine line but as the referee had said it was out it couldn't also be said to be emerging from the maul. Very poor. I agree that the yellow was harsh - yes the leg came up but that was as the French player was trying to twist out of the tackle and he tried to take a forward step. This is one of those where slow motion should have helped the referee and show that it wasn't a yellow but a good tackle that the French players side and forward motion resulted in the leg going in the air as May had already committed to the tackle.
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The one where he called the ball out, then gave a penalty when Wood dropped on it. Maybe I missed something there?
The only possible cause I can imagine for the penalty is that Wood was already in motion toward the ball as it emerged from the ruck and the referee called the ball out. Basically he jumped the gun.
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The one where he called the ball out, then gave a penalty when Wood dropped on it. Maybe I missed something there?
The only possible cause I can imagine for the penalty is that Wood was already in motion toward the ball as it emerged from the ruck and the referee called the ball out. Basically he jumped the gun.
There's no way to justify that decision, it was just straight up wrong. There is no concept of 'emerging' it's in or out and you're onside or you're not. If anyone was offside or the ball wasn't out then Hughes gets penalised but the ref waved him on and told him the ball was available. There is no rule ever which leads to the ball then being back 'in' and unavailable for Wood to dive on it, especially given the fact that the ref was fairly clear that him going off his feet was the problem. The ref just got confused and blew up and then didn't have the balls to admit he'd made a mistake, it's really that simple.
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(e)A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Like I said that's the only reason I can think of to justify the unjustifiable!
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(e)A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Like I said that's the only reason I can think of to justify the unjustifiable!
That rule is all about the ball being in the ruck and a player falling over it to stop it coming out (it's the rule that Richie McCaw was allowed to ignore for his entire career) and is normally referred to as players going off their feet at the ruck. The ball is never in an 'emerging' state it's in until it's out and that rule, and any others relating to it (such as not releasing or interfering with the scrumhalf) exist to punish teams for not allowing the ball to come out and cannot be applied once the ref has called the ball as out.
I do get what you're saying but it makes no sense, I honestly can't think of any reason why he'd blow up when he did and the correct thing should've been to give England a scrum and apologise for interrupting play but for whatever reason he panicked and made up a rule that doesn't exist to justify it.
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He never explained it either, we had the Ref Link and never heard his interpretation or explanation.
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I think he probably realised that there was no way to explain it that wouldn't have just dug him deeper.
I've spoken to a fair few people in the game yesterday and today and I'm yet to find anyone who could offer any explanation (let alone justification) for the decision. The only crumb of comfort I can find is that they missed the kick so it had no effect on the scoreboard, if we'd lost by 3 or less I think things could've been very ugly.
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He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.
Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.
What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.
I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.
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He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.
Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.
What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.
I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.
That's the one I was most angry with, given the new regs around head injuries I just can't work out why no one mentioned it.
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He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.
Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.
What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.
I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.
That's the one I was most angry with, given the new regs around head injuries I just can't work out why no one mentioned it.
Surprised he hasn't been sited yet
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He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.
Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.
What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.
I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.
That's the one I was most angry with, given the new regs around head injuries I just can't work out why no one mentioned it.
I don't if that is because the elbow missed and he got him with his shoulder.
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England U20s absolutely smashed France today 59-17
The conveyer belt just keeps running.
Just to come back to this because I've watched a fair bit more of this now and I think I've picked out the next superstar. The right winger on Saturday was a kid from London Irish called Joe Cokanasiga who was making his U20 debut and he looks like he'll be an absolute monster in a few years. 6'4, 18stone, has pace, a decent step/change of direction, good hands, fairly solid defence. I recommend anyone who's interested in what's coming through to keep an eye on him in this tournament.
Other than that Randall and Malins at 9 and 10 both look like they'll be top players as well and the back row are all a bit special. We also gave a debut to Jacob Umaga who will, I think, be a 12 long term and looks like he'll do more than enough to keep the family reputation intact (Tana Umaga is his uncle, getting Jacob to go with England ahaed of New Zealand is a bit of a coup).
Final point there's a young lock at Wasps who's on the verge of breaking into their squad (this year or next) who is apparently a bit special. I've not seen much of him but he's called Ehize Ehizode and he's getting some really good reviews, lots of people likening him to Itoje.
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England U20s absolutely smashed France today 59-17
The conveyer belt just keeps running.
Just to come back to this because I've watched a fair bit more of this now and I think I've picked out the next superstar. The right winger on Saturday was a kid from London Irish called Joe Cokanasiga who was making his U20 debut and he looks like he'll be an absolute monster in a few years. 6'4, 18stone, has pace, a decent step/change of direction, good hands, fairly solid defence. I recommend anyone who's interested in what's coming through to keep an eye on him in this tournament.
Other than that Randall and Malins at 9 and 10 both look like they'll be top players as well and the back row are all a bit special. We also gave a debut to Jacob Umaga who will, I think, be a 12 long term and looks like he'll do more than enough to keep the family reputation intact (Tana Umaga is his uncle, getting Jacob to go with England ahaed of New Zealand is a bit of a coup).
Final point there's a young lock at Wasps who's on the verge of breaking into their squad (this year or next) who is apparently a bit special. I've not seen much of him but he's called Ehize Ehizode and he's getting some really good reviews, lots of people likening him to Itoje.
Yup, I spotted him about 2/3 months back when I saw a glimpse of I believe his debut for Irish. Very impressed with Malins too, bit annoyed he's back with Sarries this week instead of playing against Wales.
The two flankers also looked pretty decent and with the impending availability of Sam Underhill, I believe our back row issues maybe close to being resolved. Speaking of which, delighted to see Clifford finally get a chance this weekend.
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Our back row looks too inexperienced to me. Haskell should have started and Itoje at lock. Unsurprisingly all of the Taff injury doubts are fit enough to play. Make them close the roof?
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It really doesn't matter about the Welsh, their players, their roof, their great singing. If we play well we win.
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Our back row looks too inexperienced to me. Haskell should have started and Itoje at lock. Unsurprisingly all of the Taff injury doubts are fit enough to play. Make them close the roof?
Ride out the first 30 minutes and stay in touch or better still equal or ahead and we'll win, our back row will be a big concern for the sheep botherers. I really don't get this Welsh fixation with the roof, you've got a roof, so what.
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It really doesn't matter about the Welsh, their players, their roof, their great singing. If we play well we win.
This.
I hope their injury 'worries', if they really are worries, play because it will f**k them up as the game goes on.
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Wales - England women's is on right (sky sports 3) and is the most painfully 1sided game I've seen for a while, 0-31 on half hour and we've been toying with them. Touch more precision and we'd have 2-3 more tries, we've butchered 2 when it was easier to score.
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Wales - England women's is on right (sky sports 3) and is the most painfully 1sided game I've seen for a while, 0-31 on half hour and we've been toying with them. Touch more precision and we'd have 2-3 more tries, we've butchered 2 when it was easier to score.
Finished 0-63 and that flatters the welsh.
I missed the u20 game live but I've caught up now, Mercer at 8 was superb again, as were Randall and Umaga an 9 and 10. The 2nd try showed why I think Cokanasiga will be special, he got the ball with very little space and smashed through to make 10 yards and turn them and we just exploited the space.
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Going to be an interesting Lions selection for the wing places. There are 8 who could have a good claim to go.
Normal service for the Irish, but, God, Italy are woeful today
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If everyone is fit i suspect watson, north and hogg will be the first choice back 3. I'd be shocked if jj isn't the first choice at 13 as well.
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Disappointing need to up our game. We dropped off badly for last 15.
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Ford kicks it away with 10 seconds on the clock and kicked it away all last week, needs to cut it out or he'll be as bad as Toby Flood.
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Amazing game.
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I thought England were very good. We nearly got done by individual errors at key times and they were from Youngs and Brown. I'd be looking at replacing both next round. I'm also far from convinced by Itoje at 6.
Our front 5 were immense though, and teo from the bench is a massive advantage.
2 weeks in a row we've been off our game against teams who've given it everything and we've won both, that is the impressive thing with this squad.
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Howley made a mistake by taking Moriarty off that early.
I know that the Welsh game plan involved kicking the ball in field but the players in the pitch should have ignored that and go pen row z with the kick that lead to the England try.
Also, what was my fellow Forester, Alex Cuthbert, doing by showing Daly the outside. Cuthbert's not got the pace to do that. He should have funnelled Daly back inside in the hope that cover was coming accross
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England had 5 players out, but still had the strength in depth to see it through, and were certainly fitter and stronger than Wales in the last 15 minutes.
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Joe Launchbury was immense, can't wait to see Haskell in from the start, I fear for Italy, I really do!
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Howley made a mistake by taking Moriarty off that early.
I know that the Welsh game plan involved kicking the ball in field but the players in the pitch should have ignored that and go pen row z with the kick that lead to the England try.
Also, what was my fellow Forester, Alex Cuthbert, doing by showing Daly the outside. Cuthbert's not got the pace to do that. He should have funnelled Daly back inside in the hope that cover was coming accross
Last bit, I said exactly the same to a friend, it's like he didn't know anything about Daly other than him being a centre so he gave him a gap. Utterly ridiculous if you've seen Daly play.
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Having played a few seasons on the wing* for Lydney 3rds, I consider myself an expert in these matters ;)
*yes....I was a winger....so stop laughing all those that know what I look like now :)
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Having just watched the try again, I don't think that Alex actually got close enough to be able to show Daley the inside. He was done for pace from the start.
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Anyone see the France Scotland game?
What on earth was Russell doing at the conversion, can only imagine he was told time was about to run out after the try by the referee, 90 seconds isn't it?
France deserved winners, they managed the second half very well and could and probably should have been awarded another try according to the letter of the law.
Another enjoyable and close game, it seems Italy are letting the competition down, are they really as bad as they appear to be? Time to let in Romania in a few years maybe?
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Wales - England women's is on right (sky sports 3) and is the most painfully 1sided game I've seen for a while, 0-31 on half hour and we've been toying with them. Touch more precision and we'd have 2-3 more tries, we've butchered 2 when it was easier to score.
Finished 0-63 and that flatters the welsh.
I missed the u20 game live but I've caught up now, Mercer at 8 was superb again, as were Randall and Umaga an 9 and 10. The 2nd try showed why I think Cokanasiga will be special, he got the ball with very little space and smashed through to make 10 yards and turn them and we just exploited the space.
Watched it also after remembering you mentioning hem last week. As you said Mercer was sensational. Not a million miles away from the first team.
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Anyone see the France Scotland game?
What on earth was Russell doing at the conversion, can only imagine he was told time was about to run out after the try by the referee, 90 seconds isn't it?
France deserved winners, they managed the second half very well and could and probably should have been awarded another try according to the letter of the law.
Another enjoyable and close game, it seems Italy are letting the competition down, are they really as bad as they appear to be? Time to let in Romania in a few years maybe?
Yes, John, I thought that, too, but after the game they run a timer on it and he still had a good 20 seconds left.
He seemed to look at the guy who bought the tee on, so maybe it was him that rushed it.
For me, though, why did he even need a tee for that kick?
I agree, France deserved it. Can't help but think that with all the Scottish injuries through the game disrupted their play.
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Anyone see the France Scotland game?
What on earth was Russell doing at the conversion, can only imagine he was told time was about to run out after the try by the referee, 90 seconds isn't it?
France deserved winners, they managed the second half very well and could and probably should have been awarded another try according to the letter of the law.
Another enjoyable and close game, it seems Italy are letting the competition down, are they really as bad as they appear to be? Time to let in Romania in a few years maybe?
Yes, John, I thought that, too, but after the game they run a timer on it and he still had a good 20 seconds left.
He seemed to look at the guy who bought the tee on, so maybe it was him that rushed it.
For me, though, why did he even need a tee for that kick?
I agree, France deserved it. Can't help but think that with all the Scottish injuries through the game disrupted their play.
Scotland have, in 2 games, been exactly what I expected from them. They have a lot of potential but they bits don't all fit properly right now. Sometimes it will all click and they'll look brilliant, other times they'll just look out of sorts. Either way they're defensively solid so I suspect mostly tight games.
As for Italy, it's really furstrating, every time they seem to turn a corner they end up going backwards again. I'm starting to think that they do need to look at options for promotion and relegation. I'd probably tie it to the world cup so the relegation happens in the world cup year (so 2019 next) and teams get a 4 year cycle to try to step up, changing it every season would just end up being a rotation of the whipping boys. On top of that stretching it out a little longer would encourage teams to build gradually rather than throwing everything at a shot to nothing . Right now Georgia would be the obvious choice to come in and I think they'd be a lot more competitive than italy have been in the last couple of years.
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Although ireland played well I thought Italy were woeful yesterday.
It became a training session for the last 30 min.
Guarantee Italy will put in 80 min of fight vrs England, though 😊
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Anyone see the France Scotland game?
What on earth was Russell doing at the conversion, can only imagine he was told time was about to run out after the try by the referee, 90 seconds isn't it?
To be fair if they were playing proper football it would have been a well taken penalty!
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Anyone see the France Scotland game?
What on earth was Russell doing at the conversion, can only imagine he was told time was about to run out after the try by the referee, 90 seconds isn't it?
On the radio this morning, the thinking was that Scotland were concerned that the try might be reviewed if they didn't quickly taken the conversion
I didn't see the game, so I don't know whether this view is correct
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Anyone see the France Scotland game?
What on earth was Russell doing at the conversion, can only imagine he was told time was about to run out after the try by the referee, 90 seconds isn't it?
On the radio this morning, the thinking was that Scotland were concerned that the try might be reviewed if they didn't quickly taken the conversion
I didn't see the game, so I don't know whether this view is correct
I heard that as well, but there's also a recording from the refs mic where you can hear him tell Russell to hurry up. So the tee boy turning up late, the ref telling him to hurry up and the threat of a TMO review of the try. No pressure then.
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I actually missed that kick at the time, I caught the try as I was going out the door, came back from picking up my daughter a few minutes later and had 3-4 messages on facebook and whatsapp telling me it was the best bit of the match. What I don't get though is why, given he was clearly rushing it, he didn't do a drop kick. I played 8 or 12 so never had to do drop kicks in a game but I could reliably nail one from there, an international fly half should be able to do that with his eyes closed. It was bizarre.
moving on the championship is already starting to take the sort of pattern I suspected, England and Italy as bookends either side of 4 very evenly matched teams who can all beat each other. I think home advantage will be key next round though so I'm going for Scotland, Ireland and England, then Wales, France and England the follow week. If it goes as I expect we'll win the championship that weekend with a record equaling 18th consecutive win and go into the no-pressure environment of Ireland away needing a win to get the grand slam and the consecutive wins record and push ourselves firmly up alongside NZ at the top of the rankings with a massive gap to the rest (which is a true reflection of where we and NZ are compared to the rest). In no way is that the ultimate setup for Ireland to piss on our chips.
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That's, more or less, what I was getting at, Paul.
Why did he even need a tee from that position?
The pitches are so even these days that it's virtually impossible to miss at that level.
To the Elliot Daly try.
Cuthbert made a massive error in his positioning. I played on the wing for years and never worried pace wise, but, I can't remember ever leaving my opposite wing open like that.
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I think Cuthbert has got away with it in the press, all the blame seems to be pointed at the kick but even though the kick was awful they had the time to recover and they just didn't see the danger. As they said in the commentary though, Wales had done half again as many tackles by that point and I wonder if they were just a bit off the pace. The biggest thing to say about this England team is that, with the 'finishers' on the bench and the very high natural fitness levels of the squad we're still going at 100% at the end, not many teams can say that.
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Agree, the kick was poor.
Sinkler is getting a lot of praise for forcing the kick error, and rightly so. It appears that the angle he attacked Davis forced him to alter his kicking angle.
It's funny how people reckon that Haskell could be playing himself out of the starting XV as his impact is so effective off the bench!!
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I still don't like Itoje as a flanker.
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I still don't like Itoje as a flanker.
No it dilutes his influence
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
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I still don't like Itoje as a flanker.
He was packing down at lock in some scrums.
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Anthony Watson and Paul Hill, prop (Saints) in the 25 training squad for Italy.
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
because he really wants to play Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje all at once is the simple answer.
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According to The Times yesterday both Vunipola's could be available for Ireland and Mako for Scotland.
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According to The Times yesterday both Vunipola's could be available for Ireland and Mako for Scotland.
No great rush for Billy, Nathan Hughes has done really well at 8.
Would be great for him to come off the bench for 15 minutes or so.
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
because he really wants to play Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje all at once is the simple answer.
Going to be really interesting when Kruis returns. Both Lawes and Launchbury have been great.
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To be fair as much as you could look at Cuthbert for the tackle, the speed of the counter attack and the passes from Ford to Farrell, and then a quite exceptional bullet pass from Farrell to Daly who was already at full pelt meaning that he didn't have to break stride, gave Daly every chance. I just think his speed and momentum meant it would have been difficult for anyone to have effectively stopped him. Wales could have reacted quicker, well, should, from the poor kick and they had no runners, but credit must go to England. Also, Wales were looking a lot more tired than England who were still going strong after the kick-off when Wales managed to get the possession. Also, as said, the finishers were huge for us, Sinckler winning the penalty in the 78th or 79th minute being case in point. There was no respite for Wales and a very tired team trying to score a try made absolutely no impact and if the game had 10 minutes more to it we would have scored another 10 or so points.
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
because he really wants to play Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje all at once is the simple answer.
Going to be really interesting when Kruis returns. Both Lawes and Launchbury have been great.
Jones was saying that Kruis is our best scrummager, with Itoje next.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/13/maro-itoje-england-eddie-jones-scrum-six-nations
It is a frightening group of players that we can select from up front.
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
because he really wants to play Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje all at once is the simple answer.
Going to be really interesting when Kruis returns. Both Lawes and Launchbury have been great.
Jones was saying that Kruis is our best scrummager, with Itoje next.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/13/maro-itoje-england-eddie-jones-scrum-six-nations
It is a frightening group of players that we can select from up front.
and getting better year after year. As mentioned above the U20s have another 3-4 top young players coming through and we're looking good at all the younger age groups as well.
Number 8 is my current choice of example. 4-5 years ago we had a championship where we played Haskell and Wood at 8 and both of them looked lost. Since then we had Morgan come through and be the only choice for a couple of years before add Billy V and then Hughes which now gives us 2 genuine world class options and a very good backup. Moving on we have Mercer coming through who looks a superb prospect and will be on the fringes of the squad in 12-18months. No one to 4 international class options in 4-5 years, it's crazy and it's a story that gets repeated all through the squad.
We were worried about a lack of options in the centres a few years ago and now we're at the point where Manu wouldn't make the 23 even if he could stay fit long enough to get involved and again Mallinder and Marchant look likely to step up over the next 12-18 months and put themselves right in the mix as well.
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Its enough to make Jim Telfer turn Out blue with rage.
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
because he really wants to play Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje all at once is the simple answer.
Going to be really interesting when Kruis returns. Both Lawes and Launchbury have been great.
Jones was saying that Kruis is our best scrummager, with Itoje next.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/13/maro-itoje-england-eddie-jones-scrum-six-nations
It is a frightening group of players that we can select from up front.
and getting better year after year. As mentioned above the U20s have another 3-4 top young players coming through and we're looking good at all the younger age groups as well.
Number 8 is my current choice of example. 4-5 years ago we had a championship where we played Haskell and Wood at 8 and both of them looked lost. Since then we had Morgan come through and be the only choice for a couple of years before add Billy V and then Hughes which now gives us 2 genuine world class options and a very good backup. Moving on we have Mercer coming through who looks a superb prospect and will be on the fringes of the squad in 12-18months. No one to 4 international class options in 4-5 years, it's crazy and it's a story that gets repeated all through the squad.
We were worried about a lack of options in the centres a few years ago and now we're at the point where Manu wouldn't make the 23 even if he could stay fit long enough to get involved and again Mallinder and Marchant look likely to step up over the next 12-18 months and put themselves right in the mix as well.
That situation will also keep the youngsters hungry for longer. It could be a while before Mercer gets a game, so he will maintain that 'must do better' attitude for longer, until (hopefully) it is all he knows. Repeat that a across three or four positions and suddenly it is the attitude of most the squad.
The opposite of the football, where a youngster gets capped and seems to think they've made it try to engineer a move to one of the top clubs.
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I don't get why he was put there in the first place, Robshaw was doing well there and is obviously out injured but why move Maro there, I dow gerrit.
because he really wants to play Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje all at once is the simple answer.
Going to be really interesting when Kruis returns. Both Lawes and Launchbury have been great.
Jones was saying that Kruis is our best scrummager, with Itoje next.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/13/maro-itoje-england-eddie-jones-scrum-six-nations
It is a frightening group of players that we can select from up front.
and getting better year after year. As mentioned above the U20s have another 3-4 top young players coming through and we're looking good at all the younger age groups as well.
Number 8 is my current choice of example. 4-5 years ago we had a championship where we played Haskell and Wood at 8 and both of them looked lost. Since then we had Morgan come through and be the only choice for a couple of years before add Billy V and then Hughes which now gives us 2 genuine world class options and a very good backup. Moving on we have Mercer coming through who looks a superb prospect and will be on the fringes of the squad in 12-18months. No one to 4 international class options in 4-5 years, it's crazy and it's a story that gets repeated all through the squad.
We were worried about a lack of options in the centres a few years ago and now we're at the point where Manu wouldn't make the 23 even if he could stay fit long enough to get involved and again Mallinder and Marchant look likely to step up over the next 12-18 months and put themselves right in the mix as well.
That situation will also keep the youngsters hungry for longer. It could be a while before Mercer gets a game, so he will maintain that 'must do better' attitude for longer, until (hopefully) it is all he knows. Repeat that a across three or four positions and suddenly it is the attitude of most the squad.
The opposite of the football, where a youngster gets capped and seems to think they've made it try to engineer a move to one of the top clubs.
Absolutely, I think you can add to that the pressure from below as well. Give it a year or 2 and Farrell (as a 12) will be under huge pressure from Mallinder but Mallinder in turn will be looking behind him at Jacob Umaga and knowing that if he does break through that's when the real work starts to keep the shirt. We're getting very close to the point where 3-4 poor performances from anyone will see them out of the 15 and a failure to address that will push you out of the squad. I think we'll see the start of that process this summer. Losing 15+ players to the lions will force changes and I can see a few of the youngsters that get a shout making themselves undroppable.
On the subject of the lions, it's looking increasingly likely that Wyn-Jones as captain is the worst kept secret in NH rugby. My issue with that is how do you justify him making the 23 ahead of Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes and Richie Grey (and very possibly Kruis and Devin Toner as well)?
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Wyn Jones is a workhorse but that is really all he offers. He wouldn't get in the England squad.
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It might be that Gatland wants an inside man as his captain, someone he knows and has faith will completely buy into his management. When trying to assimilate a group of people quickly it makes sense to appoint a deputy who is already on the same page.
The sum of the parts being greater than...
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It might be that Gatland wants an inside man as his captain, someone he knows and has faith will completely buy into his management. When trying to assimilate a group of people quickly it makes sense to appoint a deputy who is already on the same page.
The sum of the parts being greater than...
I totally get that but if that's the case pick Warburton. He's not the best 7 we have but he's not far off and picking him doesn't look 'wrong'. AWJ ahead of Itoje, etc is just wrong, you're weakening the team significantly in that case. Of course this may just be a rumour. For what it's worth Farrell would be my captain because he's the only person who is guaranteed to play who has the experience and leadership needed for it. Hartley would be better but Gatland won't pick him.
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The four Locks we can pick from are better than anything the rest can put out on the field. Starting AWJ would be mental.
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The four Locks we can pick from are better than anything the rest can put out on the field. Starting AWJ would be mental.
If he takes a 40-45 man squad you're looking at 5-6 locks. For me the 4 english boys and richie grey are the 5 and awj is competing with toner to make the squad.
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Does anyone know when the dates for next 6 Nations are out?
Some fellas from work and I fancy Rome for the Italy v England match.
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Does anyone know when the dates for next 6 Nations are out?
Some fellas from work and I fancy Rome for the Italy v England match.
Best you start saving up now. We went about 5 years ago, flights were eye wateringly expensive that weekend as were hotels. Organised trips cost the same as a reasonable package holiday to Morocco for a fortnight.
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Can't you get to Rome on the train in one day? You need to leave on the first train from St Pancras but can be in Rome that night, I'm sure if you book it far in advance you'll be able to get some decent prices.
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Does anyone know when the dates for next 6 Nations are out?
Some fellas from work and I fancy Rome for the Italy v England match.
Best you start saving up now. We went about 5 years ago, flights were eye wateringly expensive that weekend as were hotels. Organised trips cost the same as a reasonable package holiday to Morocco for a fortnight.
I looked a few years ago too and experience the same, however I put that down to it being a weekend close to valentines day. Can a rugby match with 20,000 English supporters influence the price that much?
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Does anyone know when the dates for next 6 Nations are out?
Some fellas from work and I fancy Rome for the Italy v England match.
Best you start saving up now. We went about 5 years ago, flights were eye wateringly expensive that weekend as were hotels. Organised trips cost the same as a reasonable package holiday to Morocco for a fortnight.
I looked a few years ago too and experience the same, however I put that down to it being a weekend close to valentines day. Can a rugby match with 20,000 English supporters influence the price that much?
20,000? I think when we went the RFU allocation was about 6000.
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Thanks. I'll keep an eye out.
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Quote paul-e
On the subject of the lions, it's looking increasingly likely that Wyn-Jones as captain is the worst kept secret in NH rugby. My issue with that is how do you justify him making the 23 ahead of Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes and Richie Grey (and very possibly Kruis and Devin Toner as well)?
[/quote]
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I think Jonny Grey could be added to that list, Paul. He's having a really good 6 nations, too
*bit of a quote fail. Tried to shrink a long thread* :-[
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AJW should, at best, be in the squad.
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Quote paul-e
On the subject of the lions, it's looking increasingly likely that Wyn-Jones as captain is the worst kept secret in NH rugby. My issue with that is how do you justify him making the 23 ahead of Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes and Richie Grey (and very possibly Kruis and Devin Toner as well)?
...
I think Jonny Grey could be added to that list, Paul. He's having a really good 6 nations, too
*bit of a quote fail. Tried to shrink a long thread* :-[
[/quote]
indeed, bit inexperienced though was my thinking.
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Haskell in at Flanker, Te'o starts and Mako on the bench.
50 point + margin has to be on the cards. Looking forward to Sunday and a few Guinness at Twickenham but not to the rail replacement service on the way home.
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The team is pretty much what I expected. Care in at 9 as well. I hoped he'd experiment a little more but I think he's keeping his powder dry until the summer for that. It's a shame Watson and JJ are out as they're, in my opinion, the 2 best finishers we have but I've heard JJ has a slight knock and Watson just isn't ready yet but is close which is why they kept him as a 24th man to keep working with him as long as possible.
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Wondering whether Watson will get the nod at full back in the summer.
If I remember he's F/B at Bath.
Although I quite like Brown, his days must be numbered if we're building for the World Cup
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Wondering whether Watson will get the nod at full back in the summer.
If I remember he's F/B at Bath.
Although I quite like Brown, his days must be numbered if we're building for the World Cup
I think Daly playing in the back 3 when Jones has been very clear that he doesn't see him as a winger long term answers that one. I believe he'd like to play a back 3 who are all comfortable across all 3 positions, Daly and Watson are 2/3rds of that and I can see there being a real scrap between Nowell and May for the other wing spot.
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Wondering whether Watson will get the nod at full back in the summer.
If I remember he's F/B at Bath.
Although I quite like Brown, his days must be numbered if we're building for the World Cup
I think Daly playing in the back 3 when Jones has been very clear that he doesn't see him as a winger long term answers that one. I believe he'd like to play a back 3 who are all comfortable across all 3 positions, Daly and Watson are 2/3rds of that and I can see there being a real scrap between Nowell and May for the other wing spot.
Have to say it has to be Nowell for me
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Not a big fan of Brown however his character seems a good fit with Jones' abrasive style, whereas both Daly and Watson seem more passive. Therefore as a three, I can see Nowell getting the nod as, to me, he seems to have some flanker-like qualities which will complement Daly/watson's more silky skills.
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Will that chap from Sale, Solomana, qualify for England?
Age 23 and looks some player
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Will that chap from Sale, Solomana, qualify for England?
Age 23 and looks some player
He definitely qualifies but it's if he's interested. On top of that I want to see teams put him under a bit of pressure and see how he holds up before he gets a call up, he's very new to top level RU so I'd hope they don't rush into anything to 'tag' him as ours.
From May and Nowell I think the former is a better try scorer but the latter has a better overall game so I'd be tempted to keep them both keen and go with a 'horses for courses' approach to it.
Right now, injuries and form permitting, I suspect there are 4 backs already in the team for the next world cup, Daly, Watson, Farrell and JJ. the performances of T'eo and later Mallinder will decide which position Farrell plays and/or whether Ford holds on. I think the 9 shirt will be hotly contested right up to the tournament and the final wing spot is a big question mark. The forwards are even messier in my opinion (outside the locks who might as well book their flights and hotels already).
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Will that chap from Sale, Solomana, qualify for England?
Age 23 and looks some player
He definitely qualifies but it's if he's interested. On top of that I want to see teams put him under a bit of pressure and see how he holds up before he gets a call up, he's very new to top level RU so I'd hope they don't rush into anything to 'tag' him as ours.
From May and Nowell I think the former is a better try scorer but the latter has a better overall game so I'd be tempted to keep them both keen and go with a 'horses for courses' approach to it.
Right now, injuries and form permitting, I suspect there are 4 backs already in the team for the next world cup, Daly, Watson, Farrell and JJ. the performances of T'eo and later Mallinder will decide which position Farrell plays and/or whether Ford holds on. I think the 9 shirt will be hotly contested right up to the tournament and the final wing spot is a big question mark. The forwards are even messier in my opinion (outside the locks who might as well book their flights and hotels already).
totally agree.
He certainly looks the real deal of the bits I've seen, though.
At only 23 he's got time on his side to develop his union game.
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I agree completely, and he played union up to about 16 anyway so it's not entirely new to him. I just think people need to be careful they don't overhype him, one thing we've generally done well with the rugby team is to avoid that, the 2 big failures in that regard were Cipriani and Burgess who were both rushed in far too quickly, 1 went off the rails and lost 2-3 years of his career and the other walked away from the sport after a year. I think we've had a few others who were promoted a little too early but their attitudes have been good enough to get away with it (Farrell is definitely in that group, it's only in the last year or 2 that he's looked ready, for me).
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There's so many options available. I think Marchant is going to be a star and I know he's a bit of a forgotten man, even if he is in the squad this week, but I think Slade is class and I'd like to see him involved.
I agree on May and Nowell, they both offer something different and could be used dependant on the situation. The way Ford and Farrell are playing I think they could really exploit Nowell's ability to run excellent lines.
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Home advantage x2 today in the matches between the mid table sides, as expected, there really is very little between them. At the start of the tournament I thought Ireland would be a little better but they're actually just as average as I suspected. Sexton does add a bit of quality to split the pack though. I think the Welsh will beat them on Friday, leaving us looking to Beat Scotland to win the title, France getting their inevitable win over Italy should leave all 4 of them within a point or 2 of each other going into the last weekend.
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France really should have won that, they were off to a great start and never capitalised on it added to poor discipline they gifted far too many points to Ireland and they looked dead on their feet after 35 minutes. Didn't really see anything to trouble England who should have far too much for Ireland you'd think.
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Don't think AWJ did himself any favours for captaining the Lions yesterday!!
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Pope start from Hughes.
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Not a great start this, quite sloppy and lacking in intensity.
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This is bloody terrible.
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A very poor start.
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England look really out of sorts here. Italy have been very clever with the breakdown though.
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Really out of sorts it's been a terrible first 20 mins from England.
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Not Farrell's best day at the mo.
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Better for the try, need another couple of scores this half.
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FFS, Stop giving penalties away!!
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Well we are a long way from securing a bonus point. We seem to be completely lacking any idea about how to deal with the Italian's tactics.
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I'm astounded that our players are asking the referee about the rules around a ruck.
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Hughes has been awful.
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That try sums it up, lacklustre and pathetic from England.
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We were asleep as that penalty was taken.
Italy deserve their lead.
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So is that the rub? Villa finally win a game so England must lose? That was bloody awful.
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I think this is more credit to Italy so far. The next 10 is key, if we have a plan it will be very clear straight away.
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This is better.
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There we go they have a plan. That 3rd try is beautiful.
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I think Jones must have torn into them at half time. Much better so far in the second half.
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Disgusting tackling from Ford and Brown. The latter in particular sold himself far too easily.
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The kicking in this match has been very poor
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Launchbury motm, he's been very good but i think I'd have given it to Daly who has had a brilliant game.
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Improved second half performance from England but we are clearly a long way from where we should be.
A couple of interesting games coming up against Scotland and Ireland.
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Scotland will certainly fancy their chances. They will, at least, try and play rugby.
You have to give Italy credit, but, their game plan was 'Find an obscure rule and frustrate'
Once again way to many penalties and errors.
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Scotland will certainly fancy their chances. They will, at least, try and play rugby.
You have to give Italy credit, but, their game plan was 'Find an obscure rule and frustrate'
Once again way to many penalties and errors.
I agree on today, it was very clever from Italy but I don't think it would work again.
I think the way they handled it 2nd half was very good and again they unloaded the bench and blitzed them.
Scotland will be thinking of ways to get into us but again I believe you need a lead of 2-3 scores going into the last 20 to beat this England side and with our defences that's a big ask.
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Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.
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Good reaction in the second half and once Daly got into the game he was excellent. Farrell and Hughes had absolute shockers and we need to get out of this 'just enough to win ' type performance. We need to massively improve for Scotland and Ireland.
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Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.
Thought the ref had a very good game
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Daly is absolute class and I think it's a matter of time before he's starting full back.
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Daly is absolute class and I think it's a matter of time before he's starting full back.
Daly has really taken to international rugby.
I reckon Anthony Watson might get the nod at FB as that's his position at Bath. Saying that, Daly could easily fit in at FB with Watson on the wing
My back 3 would be Daly, Watson & Nowell
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Daly is absolute class and I think it's a matter of time before he's starting full back.
Daly has really taken to international rugby.
I reckon Anthony Watson might get the nod at FB as that's his position at Bath. Saying that, Daly could easily fit in at FB with Watson on the wing
My back 3 would be Daly, Watson & Nowell
Me too. Nowell showed why he's the right choice today, he's got that extra bit of 'dog' about him.
May coming on late against tiring defences and with the game opening up is also a better use of his pace and carrying ability.
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Daly is absolute class and I think it's a matter of time before he's starting full back.
Daly has really taken to international rugby.
I reckon Anthony Watson might get the nod at FB as that's his position at Bath. Saying that, Daly could easily fit in at FB with Watson on the wing
My back 3 would be Daly, Watson & Nowell
Me too. Nowell showed why he's the right choice today, he's got that extra bit of 'dog' about him.
May coming on late against tiring defences and with the game opening up is also a better use of his pace and carrying ability.
Fully agree.
What a great position to be in that we'd have the quality of May & Yarde to keep them on their toes
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Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.
Thought the ref had a very good game
Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)
The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"
Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.
It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.
Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.
My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.
A fascinating game
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Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.
Thought the ref had a very good game
Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)
The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"
Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.
It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.
Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.
My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.
A fascinating game
He was right, though. The ref told Hartley and Haskell that if an Italian was within a metre they could be pulled in, hence forming a ruck
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Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.
Thought the ref had a very good game
Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)
The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"
Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.
It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.
Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.
My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.
A fascinating game
He was right, though. The ref told Hartley and Haskell that if an Italian was within a metre they could be pulled in, hence forming a ruck
It's a very difficult one because pulling people in (such as the scrum-half) is a penalty offence so it would be a real tightrope. Keeping the ball off the floor (offloading) and quick pick and drive to force them to close the gaps was the right solution. Other than some truly pathetic defending by Ford and Brown the second half should've been 31-0 which would've been a fair reflection of the dominance once we got the hang of the breakdown.
However all that said I thought the ref had an excellent game other than the Nowell disallowed try which he blew up far too early and I thought he should've checked for a high tackle in the first half. Can't remember who it was but the commentators mentioned it as well.
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To be honest as effective as it was it was anti-rugby by italy. Clearly designed to keep the score down and with 15 mins or so left they would have believed they could have won it. Add in some poor kicking - although i acknowledge that Farrell was saying it was difficult because the wind was swirling around - and a very flat Twickenham crowd (not a day for Scots Leavers to be watching) and it was all in all pretty uninspiring. That said, given that Scotland will come to play I doubt this will have much bearing on that result.
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Playing 15 and the ref was always going to be tough + don't underestimate how difficult the conditions actually were today at Twickenham, the conditions were very difficult and not something a TV audience would see.
Thought the ref had a very good game
Hartley appeared bamboozled in the first half by the Italian's ruck play (well....non-ruck really)
The ref was great. Loved his reaction to Hartley and Haskell asking what they should do......"I'm the Ref not a coach"
Credit to Haskell for then rephrasing the question in a way that got them an insight into the Ref's view of the rucks.
It was a great game plan by O'Shea and Venter but it was only going to work for half the game. Once Jones was able to talk to the England players, he was bound to come up with a solution.
Terrible half-time analysis from Jonny, saying that England should drag Italian players in to form a ruck. The Ref had clearly stated that that action would not constitute a ruck because in order for one to form, Italy had to initiate the contact.
My only criticism of the Ref was the way that he (correctly in the end) disallowed the one Nowell try. He blew the whistle before Nowell touched down, so there's no way he could have awarded the try if the replay hadn't shown the obstruction.
A fascinating game
He was right, though. The ref told Hartley and Haskell that if an Italian was within a metre they could be pulled in, hence forming a ruck
It's a very difficult one because pulling people in (such as the scrum-half) is a penalty offence so it would be a real tightrope. Keeping the ball off the floor (offloading) and quick pick and drive to force them to close the gaps was the right solution. Other than some truly pathetic defending by Ford and Brown the second half should've been 31-0 which would've been a fair reflection of the dominance once we got the hang of the breakdown.
However all that said I thought the ref had an excellent game other than the Nowell disallowed try which he blew up far too early and I thought he should've checked for a high tackle in the first half. Can't remember who it was but the commentators mentioned it as well.
That's probably why they decided against the 'pulling in ', even though the ref said about the metre distance.
Thought at the time it was a touch harsh on Nowell.
There's a great interview with Eddie, on facebook, doing the rounds. I'll try and put it on here, unless someone beats me to it.
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And that's my point regarding the referee, his rulings were ambiguous at best and as clear as mud. Owens would have provided clear direction I'm sure.
Anyway, why was Nowells try disallowed, it certainly wasn't clear to us?
Thanks Conor O'Shea for producing anti rugby for 82000 paying customers.
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And that's my point regarding the referee, his rulings were ambiguous at best and as clear as mud. Owens would have provided clear direction I'm sure.
Anyway, why was Nowells try disallowed, it certainly wasn't clear to us?
Thanks Conor O'Shea for producing anti rugby for 82000 paying customers.
Nowell nudged into Hughes and I think Hughes was adjudged to have impeded a tackler.
I thought it harsh as from the camera angle it looked as if it was behind the ruck, or non ruck as the case may be. I'll need to remind myself on that.
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Thanks Nigel.
Can a player be cited for simulation and being a huge Nancy? One Italian did a great impression of being felled by an imaginary tackle, he went down like Aarjen Robben, Ashley Young and Cristiano Ronaldo all rolled into one.
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I think that match might speed up the transition from Hartley to George. I like Hartley more than most, but he failed to find an answer to Italy's tactics and it shouldn't really need the coach to address it at half time. That criticism can be applied to most of the pack however as captain he should be managing the game on the pitch.
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I for one am very proud of the Italian approach. They didn't go to Twickenham to lie down and die. They used the laws of the game to their advantage so much so that they easily won the first half. There was nothing new in what they did but the English team couldn't adapt until they were coached at half time. Of course it was going to change in the second hal. For the Italian press and support it was a moral victory and signs that with a good coach better times lie ahead. Forza italia.
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And that's my point regarding the referee, his rulings were ambiguous at best and as clear as mud. Owens would have provided clear direction I'm sure.
Anyway, why was Nowells try disallowed, it certainly wasn't clear to us?
Thanks Conor O'Shea for producing anti rugby for 82000 paying customers.
Nowell nudged into Hughes and I think Hughes was adjudged to have impeded a tackler.
I thought it harsh as from the camera angle it looked as if it was behind the ruck, or non ruck as the case may be. I'll need to remind myself on that.
This is a very tough one, the defender half hid behind Hughes and remember Hughes wasn't offside because it was 'only a tackle'. Given that Hughes didn't move to cover Nowell and Nowell didn't intentionally use Hughes as a shield it had a definite element of doubt and I think the ref realised that which is why he went to the TV replay. I think they just about got it right in the end but he still should've waited for Nowell to touchdown before he blew up because if they'd have decided it wasn't obstruction they'd have had to disallow the try anyway and we'd have just had a scrum which would've been ridiculous. I'd like to think that both teams would've been mature enough at that point that Italy would've just let us run one in but I think the ref would've been toast if it happened.
I think that match might speed up the transition from Hartley to George. I like Hartley more than most, but he failed to find an answer to Italy's tactics and it shouldn't really need the coach to address it at half time. That criticism can be applied to most of the pack however as captain he should be managing the game on the pitch.
I disagree, I think it's unfair to really blame anyone, it's a tactic that is very rarely seen and our entire gameplan would've been around winning the contact and creating gaps. As the commentators said there's very few teams that could've adapted on the fly to it but it was a tactic that was only ever going to work until they had a chance to regroup and discuss it. The other point from the commentators was valid though, an 'injury' which stopped the game for 3-4 minutes when there was about 15 on the clock might've been a good way to handle things and have a chat. I wouldn't condone faking an injury though, that would be terrible (whistley emote thingy).
Thanks Nigel.
Can a player be cited for simulation and being a huge Nancy? One Italian did a great impression of being felled by an imaginary tackle, he went down like Aarjen Robben, Ashley Young and Cristiano Ronaldo all rolled into one.
That was the scrum half and to be fair he did go off shortly after but, as the replays showed, there was no foul play he just ran into Farrell and came off worse, all Farrell did was brace himself for the impact.
Moving on I thought it was, overall, a decent performance from England but Hughes had a shocking half and a very good half, Care had a terrible first half and then got subbed just as he was starting to play well and Cole, Ford, Farrell and Brown were all well below their best, the latter being part of a trend that's been running for a long time now, I honestly don't think he's got much longer at this level; his none tackle for their score in the 2nd half was national league standard defending.
I still think Daly was the best player on the pitch, he defended really well and then when we started getting asome more ball he used it superbly. It's hard for a winger to be involved enough to get the man of the match award and it tends to only happen if they score a hatful but I honestly think it was very near to a perfect performance from Daly, I can't think of a single time where he could've done better or he made a bad decision. Adding that to my comment above I'd switch him to fullback for the scots and bring Watson in on the wing, it just feels like the right time for that change. I also can't imagine that Youngs has much time left. Him coming on stifled us for 10-15 minutes just when we'd got on top and that could've been costly against a better side.
Finally I think some of the comments about Italy are a little unfair, I think they deserve a huge amount of credit for their first half performance, it's just a shame that they got carried away and tried to do it for the 2nd half as well. I think it was undeniably negative but thy were the away time and have never beaten England in 22 previous meetings so coming to try to frustrate us is a perfectly reasonable approach.
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I for one am very proud of the Italian approach. They didn't go to Twickenham to lie down and die. They used the laws of the game to their advantage so much so that they easily won the first half. There was nothing new in what they did but the English team couldn't adapt until they were coached at half time. Of course it was going to change in the second hal. For the Italian press and support it was a moral victory and signs that with a good coach better times lie ahead. Forza italia.
The problem is Italy won't develop their game if they start playing to stop the oposition rather than try to attack.
Yes, it worked for 40 minutes, but, for me, it was a step backwards, as I doubt that tactic will work again.
I remember a few years back Italy came to Twickenham and played some lovely stuff in the first half before falling away. The building blocks are there, they've just got to put them in place.
Argentina were in the same boat, but, they have developed their game and are a first class team.
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I think that match might speed up the transition from Hartley to George. I like Hartley more than most, but he failed to find an answer to Italy's tactics and it shouldn't really need the coach to address it at half time. That criticism can be applied to most of the pack however as captain he should be managing the game on the pitch.
If it wasn't for the captaincy I'd pick Jamie George over Hartley now, I think he's improved past him. Tricky one for Jones.
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I don't agree. Hartley does a lot of dirty work for the team. He's an excellent fringe defender, he puts in a huge number of tackles for a hooker and he gets to virtually every breakdown as one of the first 2-3 support players. He's also a better scrummager and thrower. George is a superb player in the loose but if you're going with those 2 as the hookers in the matchday squad then Hartley starts and George provides impact after about 50-55 minutes is the perfect setup. Give it a year or 2 and that may change, partly because I can see Tommy Taylor forcing his way into the reckoning which will make it a much more complicated situation.
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I for one am very proud of the Italian approach. They didn't go to Twickenham to lie down and die. They used the laws of the game to their advantage so much so that they easily won the first half. There was nothing new in what they did but the English team couldn't adapt until they were coached at half time. Of course it was going to change in the second hal. For the Italian press and support it was a moral victory and signs that with a good coach better times lie ahead. Forza italia.
The problem is Italy won't develop their game if they start playing to stop the oposition rather than try to attack.
Yes, it worked for 40 minutes, but, for me, it was a step backwards, as I doubt that tactic will work again.
I remember a few years back Italy came to Twickenham and played some lovely stuff in the first half before falling away. The building blocks are there, they've just got to put them in place.
Argentina were in the same boat, but, they have developed their game and are a first class team.
You're right and I see the approach has drawn even more criticism today including a commentary along the lines of 'Italy proved themselves unfit to play at this level of rugby on Sunday' basically if you can't mix it with the big boys then someone else should get the chance.
Have Italy regressed the past few years or have the other 5 teams improved much much more? Probably a bit of both, they (Italy) aren't playing anything like they were a few seasons ago, mind you nor are Scotland!
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It's disappointing as well seeing how much everyone was interested in seeing Italy this year genuinely believing that they could win one or maybe even two. Now with Georgia breathing down their necks they need to come up with something in the next two games.
As for their tactics? Well I don't care really. you don't score 15 points and should have had more if you're just spoiling the game and stopping the other team. They had a plan and by making it disjointed they gave themselves every chance. they brought us down to their level and with 15 minutes or so to go it was by no means a guaranteed victory.
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They will change the rules about that in the not too distant future.
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They will change the rules about that in the not too distant future.
The 'get stuck into the ruck you big Nancy rule'
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It's disappointing as well seeing how much everyone was interested in seeing Italy this year genuinely believing that they could win one or maybe even two. Now with Georgia breathing down their necks they need to come up with something in the next two games.
As for their tactics? Well I don't care really. you don't score 15 points and should have had more if you're just spoiling the game and stopping the other team. They had a plan and by making it disjointed they gave themselves every chance. they brought us down to their level and with 15 minutes or so to go it was by no means a guaranteed victory.
12 of those points were easily avoidable, though.
I'm not taking away any credit from the players who scored, they did really well, but, It wasn't Italy's brilliance, It was more to do with England being inept.
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Wasn't one of Italy's tries that once a season chance of hitting the posts and it falling perfectly for an Italian? So hardly inepness from England or a tactical masterclass from Italy, just pure luck (unless he aimed for it in which case ben fatto!).
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You could argue that, but the point also that the italians were only 20 yards away or so and kicking for 3 points which they turned into 7. Plus they missed, what, 3 other very kickable penalties in the first half. They should have given England a mountain to climb second half so its not as if they were hanging on 5-0 down or summat.
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Add Mike Brown's tackle dodge on Campagnaro and there's another 5 points you can take off Italy.
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Wasn't one of Italy's tries that once a season chance of hitting the posts and it falling perfectly for an Italian? So hardly inepness from England or a tactical masterclass from Italy, just pure luck (unless he aimed for it in which case ben fatto!).
It was inept from England as the Italian ran between 3 or 4 players to get to the ball.
England players didn't react, that, for me, at that level is inept.
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Wasn't one of Italy's tries that once a season chance of hitting the posts and it falling perfectly for an Italian? So hardly inepness from England or a tactical masterclass from Italy, just pure luck (unless he aimed for it in which case ben fatto!).
It was inept from England as the Italian ran between 3 or 4 players to get to the ball.
England players didn't react, that, for me, at that level is inept.
Maybe, but you just don't expect it. I played for several years and I can only recollect something similar happening once or twice, the one time I really recollect is when the rebound fell towards me and the only thing I could think to do was hoof it on the volley out of play! Prevented a try mind as two opposition players were bearing down on me. Okay so professional players should be more alert but I doubt they teach that in training much, they would all have been thinking about the restart and the next possession.
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Wasn't one of Italy's tries that once a season chance of hitting the posts and it falling perfectly for an Italian? So hardly inepness from England or a tactical masterclass from Italy, just pure luck (unless he aimed for it in which case ben fatto!).
It was inept from England as the Italian ran between 3 or 4 players to get to the ball.
England players didn't react, that, for me, at that level is inept.
Maybe, but you just don't expect it. I played for several years and I can only recollect something similar happening once or twice, the one time I really recollect is when the rebound fell towards me and the only thing I could think to do was hoof it on the volley out of play! Prevented a try mind as two opposition players were bearing down on me. Okay so professional players should be more alert but I doubt they teach that in training much, they would all have been thinking about the restart and the next possession.
If that was the case they shouldn't be playing international rugby, Dave.
Yes, I doubt they train for that sort of thing, but, they should have been aware that it could happe.
I played at a decent standard, no where near these guys, though, and it was second nature to watch the kick.
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On that kick I think England switched off a little because it was a simple 3 pointer, even accounting for conditions a kick from the edge of the 22 10-15m wide of the posts has got to be points in the bag at international level. Add to that the fact that there was so little time left on the clock that it was effectively half time in a game where they'd been out thought and I think they did just switch off a touch. I'm much more forgiving of that one than I am with Ford allowing himself to be shrugged off with minimal effort and Brown deciding to, I assume, tie his laces instead of making a tackle.
Moving on, I see the try tracker thing on the rfu site has Daly down as the 'key influencer' for England. For anyone who's never seen it they basically smash together all the stats for the players and work out who had the biggest effect on the result. The way it works is really good because it takes some focus away from the amount of involvement and looks more at the quality of those involvements which gives people like wingers a much fairer 'crack' than they often get because their position requires them to not get involved in the stuff on the floor, etc.
It's here: http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/fixtures/943/2017/20170226/899466/#/keyinfluencers
I'm glad that the numbers back up my opinion that Daly was the best player on the pitch.
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Billy V back in the match day squad for Saturday.
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Rumour has it he's in the starting 15.
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That would be daft given the results in his absence and his lack of rugby. Let him bully the Sweaties for 25 minutes off the bench.
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Rumour has it he's in the starting 15.
At the moment Hughes' greater mobility strikes me a more effective weapon as a 'finisher' anyway. Plus it must be hard to know at what point Billy will start blowing out his arse, so better to have someone ready to come on for him rather than introduce him in the 50th minute only to learn he has 20 minutes in the tank.
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That would be daft given the results in his absence and his lack of rugby. Let him bully the Sweaties for 25 minutes off the bench.
I think Hughes' first half performance last time out may count against him a bit. Jones may wish to make a bit of an example to keep him really focused.
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Rumour has it he's in the starting 15.
At the moment Hughes' greater mobility strikes me a more effective weapon as a 'finisher' anyway. Plus it must be hard to know at what point Billy will start blowing out his arse, so better to have someone ready to come on for him rather than introduce him in the 50th minute only to learn he has 20 minutes in the tank.
Timing similar, fundamental disagreement on use!
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BV on the bench.
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England team
Brown; Nowell, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes.
Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, B Vunipola, Care, Te'o, Watson
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Weirdly, I look at that team and, whilst a very good unit, they're mainly solid rather than spectacular. However when the bench is factored in it becomes a much different animal.
The strength in depth is insane.
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Weirdly, I look at that team and, whilst a very good unit, they're mainly solid rather than spectacular. However when the bench is factored in it becomes a much different animal.
The strength in depth is insane.
I'm not sure about that, I'd argue that of the backline there's only really Brown that I'd consider to be a solid selection and 4-8 in the pack are all big ball carriers with a solid, set piece focused front row. Swap out of form Youngs for Robson and bring in Watson on the left and move Daly to 15 and I reckon you've got one of the most exciting England teams ever. How flat Ford and Farrell play is the key to it, if they're working right in the faces of the scots we'll have the firepower to really hurt them. That was the biggest problem with Lancaster he was happy for the backs to play it safe 5yards in front of the opposition at which point drift defence covering is far too simple and the gaps just aren't there.
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I don't know. Lancaster tried to more expansive than Eddie Jones ever has. You could argue that he didn't have Billy and mako Vunipola has competent as they are now, that farrell had only just been moved to 12, that daly was only on the fringes, and he had no itoje. A lot of these players were brought through by the previous regime and Jones is reaping the benefit. not that i'm trying to stick up for Lancaster but he was definitely trying to shoft the ball more than Eddie Jones who looks for the contact and set-pieces with quick ball being the corner stone of it. England do look fitter now though.
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You're right but that was the problem, 10 and 12 were too deep so we shifted the ball wide but backwards so when it got to JJ hr was 10 yards behind play. That led to their tacklers and support moving forward at too many breakdowns which meant we were turned over too easily.
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Farrell limped out of training yesterday and hasn't trained today so we might see T'eo earlier than expected.
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I think there's some bluffing going on with Jones over Farrell's injury, keep the sweaties on their toes.
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I think there's some bluffing going on with Jones over Farrell's injury, keep the sweaties on their toes.
It is a strange one, I wonder if he's just trying to take some of the pressure away by making the press focus on something other than the 18th win.
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I think there's some bluffing going on with Jones over Farrell's injury, keep the sweaties on their toes.
That was what I thought as well.
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Wales Ireland is getting very brutal now.
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Very aggressive but not much quality, ireland have been poor in defence.
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Wales looked good, but I don't know how much that was due to Ireland not performing to usual standard.
Pretty sure Ireland will be firing on all cylinders next week.
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This is more like it, JJ has been unplayable and for our 3rd the timing of the passes and running lines beautiful.
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Ireland can fire on as many cylinders as they like next week, England will win.
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Ireland can fire on as many cylinders as they like next week, England will win.
If England put in another display like today I don't think there's a team in the world that could compete other than NZ. People will talk about missed tackles but that really is missing the point, the running lines and delayed passing meant our runners were taking the ball at full pace and with space to go in or out and then they targeted the weak shoulder and broke the line, it's very hard to do anything about it when a team is playing at that level and a 40 point win against the side ranked 5th in the world really shouldn't be understated, we were absolutely exceptional.
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Certainly didn't see that score coming before KO.
Imagine the score had the Scottish player been red carded, as he should have been!!
JJ looked a man on a mission after being left out last week. His lines were sublime.
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Scotland really did fancy their chances but unfortunately for them they ran into England when we played brilliantly. Unhappy with the ease of their 3 tries but that's a minor blip on a day where we were on another level.
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Scotland really did fancy their chances but unfortunately for them they ran into England when we played brilliantly. Unhappy with the ease of their 3 tries but that's a minor blip on a day where we were on another level.
It makes me wonder whether they underestimated England a touch.
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England had started slow in the other games but a combination of the early yellow, Scotland forgetting how to tackle and the return of JJ mad this a completely different game to the others
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England had started slow in the other games but a combination of the early yellow, Scotland forgetting how to tackle and the return of JJ mad this a completely different game to the others
It's not that they forgot how to tackle. the fundamental problem was they picked 3 7s in the hope that they could kill the breakdown and create a lot of turnovers. We planned for that and played with Ford and Farrell both standing very flat. What that does is mean that if you have carriers like our pack who run through the tackler you make their 7s all have to run round to the back foot which nullifies them. With those 3 chasing shadows around the fringes there was loads of space in the 12-13 channel and a runner like JJ will exploit that space for fun. If you watch it back on the 5-6 clean breaks from JJ (4 of which were tries) they never got him lined up to tackle it was always the sort of desperate lunge you do when you know you've been beaten.
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They could have lined him up all game, but, JJ's lines were superb and the dummy runners and passing from both George and Farrell held up the defence brilliantly
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They could have lined him up all game, but, JJ's lines were superb and the dummy runners and passing from both George and Farrell held up the defence brilliantly
That's what I mean, the way we played meant there was always a weak shoulder for him to target. You'd normally angle him out and let the back row drifting across cover the inside line but they had no back row cover so the defenders had to try to read his line and he's too good for for that if he's hitti ng the ball at full pace on the gainline.
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They could have lined him up all game, but, JJ's lines were superb and the dummy runners and passing from both George and Farrell held up the defence brilliantly
That's what I mean, the way we played meant there was always a weak shoulder for him to target. You'd normally angle him out and let the back row drifting across cover the inside line but they had no back row cover so the defenders had to try to read his line and he's too good for for that if he's hitti ng the ball at full pace on the gainline.
Exactly right, Paul.
His line for his 3rd try was sublime. I think it caught everyone out, even us watching on TV. I've watched it few times now and still nearly miss it.
I think he could have had his name penciled in for the Lions on that performance.
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What was impressive also was that the 3 times Scotland scored we immediately went down the other end and scored also. At no point could they think that they would have a platform to get some set-pieces going because we were just so well drilled. As paul mentioned earlier, and as Eddie Jones said, they knew that Scotland would try and go hard in the middle which would create a softness around the flanks which we exploited.
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Scotland's pick and go was probably the best aspect of their game, they executed it well and a bit of a shame we couldn't have kept at least one of their tries out. JJ was clearly MotM but I thought Hartley was immense, probably one of his best games as captain, Launchbury was also huge yet again.
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Plenty of praise for Farrell and Ford as well. When they are that flat I would back us to destroy any opposition.
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In years gone by I would expect us to falter when we play Ireland but with Jones in charge I think we will win...He has changed many things but it's the mentality that he really seems to have changed...An incredible self belief that if you stick at it the result will come.
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Plenty of praise for Farrell and Ford as well. When they are that flat I would back us to destroy any opposition.
Yep, I said to a few people JJ gets the praise but the midfield unit of those 3 put in an almost faultless display between them and youngs put in his first good performance for a while as well which helped.
In years gone by I would expect us to falter when we play Ireland but with Jones in charge I think we will win...He has changed many things but it's the mentality that he really seems to have changed...An incredible self belief that if you stick at it the result will come.
I think he's got himself a proper captain as well. I know that Hartley can be a bit of a dick but he's a very good player and he just doesn't accept being 2nd best. Finding a manager willing to back him and tell the rest of the team to develop that mindset has been a huge part of it. On top of that he's benefiting from the sheer depth that the RFU approach to academy rugby has created. Having 2-3 international class players for pretty much every position makes it a lot easier to make changes and know you're getting the fitness boost without reducing quality. That in particular has allowed us to blitz teams late on and belief that "finishers" play as big a part as starters means players come on knowing they got the backing to change the game.
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The bench was going to be my other point. We empty ours and win. There isn't a team in the Northern Hemisphere (possibly the world) that can cope with what we bring on with splinters in their arse.
On the captain bit Saturday, it wasn't just Hartley. Via the ref mic you could hear our players screaming for discipline at each other long before the ref got involved.
"Dylan, release"
"Slow it, slow it, off your feet".
And so on.
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The bench was going to be my other point. We empty ours and win. There isn't a team in the Northern Hemisphere (possibly the world) that can cope with what we bring on with splinters in their arse.
On the captain bit Saturday, it wasn't just Hartley. Via the ref mic you could hear our players screaming for discipline at each other long before the ref got involved.
"Dylan, release"
"Slow it, slow it, off your feet".
And so on.
That's what I mean, Hartley has got everyone expecting more and they talk a lot, you can see it every game, there's always a few little chats going on at every breakdown and as you say you can here 5-6 different voices over the ref mic. Farrell has really stepped up a level in that regard which is why he'd be my lions captain.
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Agreed. Best player in the top half of the world by a distance.
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By the way, just started listening to the Rugby Pod. Admittedly my first one, but very entertaining and they're surprisingly candid with their stories and occasional in-depth analysis.
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Billy V and Watson back. Tough on Hughes.
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Billy V and Watson back. Tough on Hughes.
Eddie Jones has said as much himself but 1 starting the other finishing, either way teams have 80 minutes of facing a world class 8 who can give everything.
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I'd be very surprised to see Billy V come off. I'd rather him be the finisher against a tiring irish side than Hughes. i think Watson for Nowell is a huge statement of intent.
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The Irish bench looks shit and the backs are full of midgets.
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I'd be very surprised to see Billy V come off. I'd rather him be the finisher against a tiring irish side than Hughes. i think Watson for Nowell is a huge statement of intent.
Billy isn't fit enough for 80 minutes at this level yet, about 55-60 at most. I also think Hughes is better in a more open game because he's a great ball player and has an ability to open holes around the fringes with quick passes and offloads.
Watson is in because he's very good under the high ball and Ireland plan their game around an effective kick and chase, the hope is that Watson and Daly carry a few back and make them kick for safety more than to attack us.
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I'd be very surprised to see Billy V come off. I'd rather him be the finisher against a tiring irish side than Hughes. i think Watson for Nowell is a huge statement of intent.
Billy isn't fit enough for 80 minutes at this level yet, about 55-60 at most. I also think Hughes is better in a more open game because he's a great ball player and has an ability to open holes around the fringes with quick passes and offloads.
Watson is in because he's very good under the high ball and Ireland plan their game around an effective kick and chase, the hope is that Watson and Daly carry a few back and make them kick for safety more than to attack us.
Agree, Paul.
Have to say I thought it odd to replace Nowell, but, I was assuming Daly wouldn't be fit.
It does make perfect sense, though, given Daly is fit
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In the future I'd prefer to have Watson (or Daly) at fullback and drop Brown. Nowell has that element on mongrel that Brown possesses however has much better awareness.
Maybe, with Ireland's kicking game, Brown is worth his place on saturday however moving forward, his inability to off load, is restricting our attacking potential.
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Long term I expect that'll be the plan.
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Long term I expect that'll be the plan.
Yup. Age would probably dictate that anyway, however last week Brown's constant running into contact was frustrating to say the least.
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No idea what Watson is like under the high ball but with Brown, Watson, and Daly running back at you (as derided as Brown has been) that is as formidable a trio as you will see returning the high ball in Northern rugby and, without a scrap of evidence, in world rugby.
On another note - if we do win the Grand Slam, is this the end for Robshaw? if we lose then holes can be picked and something with teh forwards wouldn't have clicked (you'd imagine) so he has a shout. Win and with Kruis to come back in, it's hard to see where Robshaw could go.
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Robshaw was man of the match in one of his most recent games for England, plus Itoje has had some anonymous periods whilst playing there. I'd guess that Robshaw and Haskell will fight it out for one spot (the 'old head' and some grunt in the scrum) whilst we develop some more natural sevens on the other side, although I'd struggle to identify them.
It's incredible that a player of Robshaw's importance (if not ability) can be quickly forgotten due to the current crop of players.
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Robshaw was man of the match in one of his most recent games for England, plus Itoje has had some anonymous periods whilst playing there. I'd guess that Robshaw and Haskell will fight it out for one spot (the 'old head' and some grunt in the scrum) whilst we develop some more natural sevens on the other side, although I'd struggle to identify them.
It's incredible that a player of Robshaw's importance (if not ability) can be quickly forgotten due to the current crop of players.
We have 3-4 very good 7s coming through, I suspect 1-2 of them will make the squad this summer. Will Evans at Tigers is probably at the font of the queue but Joel Conlon at Sarries (but developed at Exeter) looked like a star in the making a few years back, he seems to be just breaking through now so he's worth watching out for. On top of that the Curry twins who are with the U20s right now both look very good and I'd say both are 6.5s right now and could go either way.
Also Kvesic is still only 24 (despite having been around for ages having broken into the warriors team at 18) and his upcoming move to Exeter looks like a perfect chance for him to get himself back in the mix. Harrison is also only 24 and his game has been improving massively for a couple of years, if he can keep that improvement going he'll never be too far away.
I suspect 7 will be like 8 and the centres were a few years back, we'll go from nothing to too many good options in the blink of an eye.
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Robshaw was man of the match in one of his most recent games for England, plus Itoje has had some anonymous periods whilst playing there. I'd guess that Robshaw and Haskell will fight it out for one spot (the 'old head' and some grunt in the scrum) whilst we develop some more natural sevens on the other side, although I'd struggle to identify them.
It's incredible that a player of Robshaw's importance (if not ability) can be quickly forgotten due to the current crop of players.
We have 3-4 very good 7s coming through, I suspect 1-2 of them will make the squad this summer. Will Evans at Tigers is probably at the font of the queue but Joel Conlon at Sarries (but developed at Exeter) looked like a star in the making a few years back, he seems to be just breaking through now so he's worth watching out for. On top of that the Curry twins who are with the U20s right now both look very good and I'd say both are 6.5s right now and could go either way.
Also Kvesic is still only 24 (despite having been around for ages having broken into the warriors team at 18) and his upcoming move to Exeter looks like a perfect chance for him to get himself back in the mix. Harrison is also only 24 and his game has been improving massively for a couple of years, if he can keep that improvement going he'll never be too far away.
I suspect 7 will be like 8 and the centres were a few years back, we'll go from nothing to too many good options in the blink of an eye.
You've missed the most obvious one, who will be on the tour to Argentina without question, Sam Underhill. I believe he'll be in the 23 whoever we play first up, Argentina or NZ, in November. Can't wait to see him develop under Louw at Bath
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Robshaw was man of the match in one of his most recent games for England, plus Itoje has had some anonymous periods whilst playing there. I'd guess that Robshaw and Haskell will fight it out for one spot (the 'old head' and some grunt in the scrum) whilst we develop some more natural sevens on the other side, although I'd struggle to identify them.
It's incredible that a player of Robshaw's importance (if not ability) can be quickly forgotten due to the current crop of players.
We have 3-4 very good 7s coming through, I suspect 1-2 of them will make the squad this summer. Will Evans at Tigers is probably at the font of the queue but Joel Conlon at Sarries (but developed at Exeter) looked like a star in the making a few years back, he seems to be just breaking through now so he's worth watching out for. On top of that the Curry twins who are with the U20s right now both look very good and I'd say both are 6.5s right now and could go either way.
Also Kvesic is still only 24 (despite having been around for ages having broken into the warriors team at 18) and his upcoming move to Exeter looks like a perfect chance for him to get himself back in the mix. Harrison is also only 24 and his game has been improving massively for a couple of years, if he can keep that improvement going he'll never be too far away.
I suspect 7 will be like 8 and the centres were a few years back, we'll go from nothing to too many good options in the blink of an eye.
You've missed the most obvious one, who will be on the tour to Argentina without question, Sam Underhill. I believe he'll be in the 23 whoever we play first up, Argentina or NZ, in November. Can't wait to see him develop under Louw at Bath
I did indeed, I knew there was another one but the name just wouldn't come to me so I went through all the teams in the league (in my head) and just couldn't work out who I was missing.
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Irish air traffic control have diversion plans in place for the afternoon.
Tight first 20 I would have thought and then expect England to steadily pull away, we have far too much all over the park for Ireland.
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France v Wales U20
The one French winger is tipped for greatness. He has some serious gas
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7JIOciWwAAWrP-?format=jpg)
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Great read:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39306051
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Great read:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39306051
Indeed. I knew there were connections between the two but I didn't realise that their lives were quite so intertwined. It could easily be a new chapter in one of the 10,000 hour books.
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Nervous about today, we need to be at our best.
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a taster:
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Great read:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39306051
Very interesting, but spoilt by the author's clear absence of basic rugby knowledge in one point of his argument...
"English Grand Slams have always been built on the essential understanding between fly-half and inside centre: Wilkinson and Will Greenwood, Rob Andrew and Will Carling. Never before have they had the ability to switch roles so naturally and to such attacking effect."
If I were Mike Tindall and Jeremy Guscott reading that, I think I'd be pretty pissed off...
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First game, scotland won comfortably in the end and defended well but italy butchered 2-3 tries and missed a few simple penalties.
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This France Wales game is crazy. 99 minutes and still playing.
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We have been terrible so far.
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It's deja vu all over again in Dublin.
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Yep Jones needs to give them a rocket.
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Poor start but the ref really needs to keep an eye on them around the ruck, they're going off their feet a lot which is creating a lot of the momentum.
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Yep Jones needs to give them a rocket.
St Patrick's weekend, the chance to shove all this world record / all time great team / grand slam hype down our throats? There's no way we're coming out of this with a win, this was always going to happen.
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Ireland have done well, but England have been woeful.
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England need a massive 20 mins.
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Well let's see how his "finishers" do today?
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Game gone.
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You cannot play so poorly and rely on the last 20 mins. Brown should be done now.
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Never the less England are comfortably the best side and need to use this as a learning game.
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Happens every time (except when we had a Johnno who absolutely refused to let it happen one more time). Them spoiling our party is almost like a World Cup win to them, and the atmosphere reflects it. At least Jones will have seen who can handle that kind of atmosphere and who wilts.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
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Let Georgia in and it wouldn't be a problem
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Let Georgia in and it wouldn't be a problem
I was thinking that today. The competition is probably my favourite annual sporting event, yet it's not exactly the fairest with the differing number of home/away matches.
Plus Georgia would be weirdly wonderful away trip.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
I was on more about the posters below are saying...let in Georgia and then you can have 3 home and aways with one team not playing each weekend (although it would stagger the competition out a bit longer).
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
England won it last year with 2 home games and I fully expect them to do the same next year.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
I was on more about the posters below are saying...let in Georgia and then you can have 3 home and aways with one team not playing each weekend (although it would stagger the competition out a bit longer).
I think that and remove the break weekends or add Georgia and another (Russia/Romania) and have 2 groups and then playoffs/finals would be my choice.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
I was on more about the posters below are saying...let in Georgia and then you can have 3 home and aways with one team not playing each weekend (although it would stagger the competition out a bit longer).
I think that and remove the break weekends or add Georgia and another (Russia/Romania) and have 2 groups and then playoffs/finals would be my choice.
Agree with this, 2 groups of 4 then top 2 in each group into semis and a Final, bottom 4 into play offs to avoid relegation. Romania have beaten Georgia today to finish top of the Champnship so them and Georgia could quite easily step up and have a go. Think that would guarantee everyone 5 games.
Then again this is Rugby, it'll never happen.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
I was on more about the posters below are saying...let in Georgia and then you can have 3 home and aways with one team not playing each weekend (although it would stagger the competition out a bit longer).
I think that and remove the break weekends or add Georgia and another (Russia/Romania) and have 2 groups and then playoffs/finals would be my choice.
Agree with this, 2 groups of 4 then top 2 in each group into semis and a Final, bottom 4 into play offs to avoid relegation. Romania have beaten Georgia today to finish top of the Champnship so them and Georgia could quite easily step up and have a go. Think that would guarantee everyone 5 games.
Then again this is Rugby, it'll never happen.
Don't think the clubs would be happy at losing their best players for so long.
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Not a big Rugby fan at all but do watch a few more of the games when the 6 nations is on.
When was the last time out of interest a national team won the competition when they had just 2 home games in their fixture list....England always seem to win it when they're scheduled with 3 home games although I could be completely wrong on that! (Which I am given they won it last year).
I'd much rather see if it was possible them all to play 3 home and 3 away in the tournament. It's a bit like 10 premier league sides playing more homes and the other 10 teams have one more away game, it just distorts things a little bit as we saw tonight how massive home advantage is in Rugby.
Each team only plays 5 games, so it's difficult to play 3 & 3 😊
I was on more about the posters below are saying...let in Georgia and then you can have 3 home and aways with one team not playing each weekend (although it would stagger the competition out a bit longer).
I think that and remove the break weekends or add Georgia and another (Russia/Romania) and have 2 groups and then playoffs/finals would be my choice.
Agree with this, 2 groups of 4 then top 2 in each group into semis and a Final, bottom 4 into play offs to avoid relegation. Romania have beaten Georgia today to finish top of the Champnship so them and Georgia could quite easily step up and have a go. Think that would guarantee everyone 5 games.
Then again this is Rugby, it'll never happen.
Don't think the clubs would be happy at losing their best players for so long.
3 group games, a semi and a final (with every team playing for ranks for the next season). 5 games just like now. I wouldn't add relegation as described though, I'd do it after a world cup year and have is a cumulative 4 year cycle.
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It's starting to sound a little complicated now.
There's not a great deal wrong with how it's run at the moment.
There's a case for dropping Italy as they just haven't improved over the years. They did start to, but the last two years they seem to have gone backwards. It would be a shame, but, They won't improve by getting thumped every game.
I think Italy, and other emerging nations, should look at Argentina's model. What a success story that is.
My view is along the lines of:
1/Go back to the original 5 nations
2/Drop Italy into a second division with the likes of Georgia, Romania and a couple of others. With the World being a pretty small place these days even Canada and Japan could be thought of.
3/No automatic promotion, but, If a 2nd tier team wins it, say, 3 on the bounce they get a crack at the bottom team above. Home and away.
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I wouldn't want Italy dropped out of it because rugby needs to expand rather than constrict. There is a case for Georgia at the moment but what is their infrastructure like? Are they just in the throes of a purple period, such as Romania enjoyed in the 80s? If the latter adding them will bring nothing. I think adding one more would be okay but would a 7 Nations really be viable over a longer period - or attractive enough? I wouldn't have relelgation otherwise we may as well scrap the Northern and Southern Hemisphere competitions and just have a top 8 World Rugby League. Then the bottom could play top of a feeder. But would Georgia be able to fund trips to Fiji, Samoa, Tonga And vice versa?
So that is unworkable. If it is to be a European League then the 6 Nations should be the pinnacle of the sport. 6 it is. The emerging nations can have a shadow contest - I don't know - Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and the regularity and strength in that contest could see top lay botom f 6 Nations. Eventually. Test matches need to be found in the summer, though, for matches against georgia ad the like. Even if it is B teams.
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The thing is the smaller teams won't improve by being in a league 2 and one of them playing a big boy every 5-6 years. If we really want to see major improvement we need to make the competition bigger and get more of the smaller sides playing against the big teams regularly. As you said, Italy had improved a lot before this recent slump through the exposure to the higher level of competition, unfortunately they're in a slump right now because they have a lot of players who aren't ready for internationals yet but who are playing. Take the weekend for example, they missed 3 fairly straightforward penalties when the game was still tight. If Canna had put the 3rd of those over it'd have been 15-9 and you're looking at a different game.
I'd like to see them have a chance at winning a game a little more often but I'd rather do that by expanding rather than making things more elitist at the top. A possible alternative could be to have 1 in 4 that's the expanded version. I think a minimum 4 year cycle is important though, teams need to be given time to adapt to the higher standard and any swapping around before that would just be pointless.
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I wouldn't want Italy dropped out of it because rugby needs to expand rather than constrict. There is a case for Georgia at the moment but what is their infrastructure like? Are they just in the throes of a purple period, such as Romania enjoyed in the 80s? If the latter adding them will bring nothing. I think adding one more would be okay but would a 7 Nations really be viable over a longer period - or attractive enough? I wouldn't have relelgation otherwise we may as well scrap the Northern and Southern Hemisphere competitions and just have a top 8 World Rugby League. Then the bottom could play top of a feeder. But would Georgia be able to fund trips to Fiji, Samoa, Tonga And vice versa?
So that is unworkable. If it is to be a European League then the 6 Nations should be the pinnacle of the sport. 6 it is. The emerging nations can have a shadow contest - I don't know - Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and the regularity and strength in that contest could see top lay botom f 6 Nations. Eventually. Test matches need to be found in the summer, though, for matches against georgia ad the like. Even if it is B teams.
The structure is already in place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_Rugby_Europe_International_Championships
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Europe_International_Championships
I'd like to see the winners play the 6 Nations 6th place finisher in a playoff for a place in the next 6 Nations
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I wouldn't want Italy dropped out of it because rugby needs to expand rather than constrict. There is a case for Georgia at the moment but what is their infrastructure like? Are they just in the throes of a purple period, such as Romania enjoyed in the 80s? If the latter adding them will bring nothing. I think adding one more would be okay but would a 7 Nations really be viable over a longer period - or attractive enough? I wouldn't have relelgation otherwise we may as well scrap the Northern and Southern Hemisphere competitions and just have a top 8 World Rugby League. Then the bottom could play top of a feeder. But would Georgia be able to fund trips to Fiji, Samoa, Tonga And vice versa?
So that is unworkable. If it is to be a European League then the 6 Nations should be the pinnacle of the sport. 6 it is. The emerging nations can have a shadow contest - I don't know - Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain, Portugal, Belgium and the regularity and strength in that contest could see top lay botom f 6 Nations. Eventually. Test matches need to be found in the summer, though, for matches against georgia ad the like. Even if it is B teams.
I missed this one, you must've posted whilst I was replying to Nigel. Georgia has the infrastructure, they have a 50k+ stadium and regularly sell out games, put them against the big european sides and they'd fill it with ease. It's their main national sport so the recognition of being a top tier side would be huge for them. On top of that they have, in my opinion, one of the best 8s of all time as their current captain, anyone who's watched any French rugby in the last decade will know that Gorgodze is a force of nature.
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The thing is the smaller teams won't improve by being in a league 2 and one of them playing a big boy every 5-6 years. If we really want to see major improvement we need to make the competition bigger and get more of the smaller sides playing against the big teams regularly. As you said, Italy had improved a lot before this recent slump through the exposure to the higher level of competition, unfortunately they're in a slump right now because they have a lot of players who aren't ready for internationals yet but who are playing. Take the weekend for example, they missed 3 fairly straightforward penalties when the game was still tight. If Canna had put the 3rd of those over it'd have been 15-9 and you're looking at a different game.
I'd like to see them have a chance at winning a game a little more often but I'd rather do that by expanding rather than making things more elitist at the top. A possible alternative could be to have 1 in 4 that's the expanded version. I think a minimum 4 year cycle is important though, teams need to be given time to adapt to the higher standard and any swapping around before that would just be pointless.
Fair points, Paul.
I think if you asked 100 people you'd get 100 different solutions.
Maybe something along the lines of 2 'divisions' but the 2nd tier teams have to be invited to play at least two games in the Autumn internationals. I think that's a long the route Argentina took, although I'm not 100% sure of that.
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The thing is the smaller teams won't improve by being in a league 2 and one of them playing a big boy every 5-6 years. If we really want to see major improvement we need to make the competition bigger and get more of the smaller sides playing against the big teams regularly. As you said, Italy had improved a lot before this recent slump through the exposure to the higher level of competition, unfortunately they're in a slump right now because they have a lot of players who aren't ready for internationals yet but who are playing. Take the weekend for example, they missed 3 fairly straightforward penalties when the game was still tight. If Canna had put the 3rd of those over it'd have been 15-9 and you're looking at a different game.
I'd like to see them have a chance at winning a game a little more often but I'd rather do that by expanding rather than making things more elitist at the top. A possible alternative could be to have 1 in 4 that's the expanded version. I think a minimum 4 year cycle is important though, teams need to be given time to adapt to the higher standard and any swapping around before that would just be pointless.
Fair points, Paul.
I think if you asked 100 people you'd get 100 different solutions.
Maybe something along the lines of 2 'divisions' but the 2nd tier teams have to be invited to play at least two games in the Autumn internationals. I think that's a long the route Argentina took, although I'm not 100% sure of that.
Absolutely, that's what makes it so difficult, no one wants to see a team lose most of their games (like Italy) but teams winning most of their games against poor teams with no hope of being allowed to play at a higher standard is just as bad. I really feel for sides like Georgia/Romania (and Canada/USA/Japan) because they have the talent and infrastructure to progress but even when they do play the big sides it tends to be a XV rather than the first choice team so they learn nothing other than they're not far off competing with the Irish Wolfhounds, etc. Then we get a world cup they put in 1 or 2 decent performances and people act surprised before ignoring them for another 4 years. The attitude needs to be far more inclusive if the sport is to develop further.
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The thing is the smaller teams won't improve by being in a league 2 and one of them playing a big boy every 5-6 years. If we really want to see major improvement we need to make the competition bigger and get more of the smaller sides playing against the big teams regularly. As you said, Italy had improved a lot before this recent slump through the exposure to the higher level of competition, unfortunately they're in a slump right now because they have a lot of players who aren't ready for internationals yet but who are playing. Take the weekend for example, they missed 3 fairly straightforward penalties when the game was still tight. If Canna had put the 3rd of those over it'd have been 15-9 and you're looking at a different game.
I'd like to see them have a chance at winning a game a little more often but I'd rather do that by expanding rather than making things more elitist at the top. A possible alternative could be to have 1 in 4 that's the expanded version. I think a minimum 4 year cycle is important though, teams need to be given time to adapt to the higher standard and any swapping around before that would just be pointless.
Fair points, Paul.
I think if you asked 100 people you'd get 100 different solutions.
Maybe something along the lines of 2 'divisions' but the 2nd tier teams have to be invited to play at least two games in the Autumn internationals. I think that's a long the route Argentina took, although I'm not 100% sure of that.
Absolutely, that's what makes it so difficult, no one wants to see a team lose most of their games (like Italy) but teams winning most of their games against poor teams with no hope of being allowed to play at a higher standard is just as bad. I really feel for sides like Georgia/Romania (and Canada/USA/Japan) because they have the talent and infrastructure to progress but even when they do play the big sides it tends to be a XV rather than the first choice team so they learn nothing other than they're not far off competing with the Irish Wolfhounds, etc. Then we get a world cup they put in 1 or 2 decent performances and people act surprised before ignoring them for another 4 years. The attitude needs to be far more inclusive if the sport is to develop further.
That's right, Paul, I reckon between us we could restructure World Rugby. ;)
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The thing is the smaller teams won't improve by being in a league 2 and one of them playing a big boy every 5-6 years. If we really want to see major improvement we need to make the competition bigger and get more of the smaller sides playing against the big teams regularly. As you said, Italy had improved a lot before this recent slump through the exposure to the higher level of competition, unfortunately they're in a slump right now because they have a lot of players who aren't ready for internationals yet but who are playing. Take the weekend for example, they missed 3 fairly straightforward penalties when the game was still tight. If Canna had put the 3rd of those over it'd have been 15-9 and you're looking at a different game.
I'd like to see them have a chance at winning a game a little more often but I'd rather do that by expanding rather than making things more elitist at the top. A possible alternative could be to have 1 in 4 that's the expanded version. I think a minimum 4 year cycle is important though, teams need to be given time to adapt to the higher standard and any swapping around before that would just be pointless.
Fair points, Paul.
I think if you asked 100 people you'd get 100 different solutions.
Maybe something along the lines of 2 'divisions' but the 2nd tier teams have to be invited to play at least two games in the Autumn internationals. I think that's a long the route Argentina took, although I'm not 100% sure of that.
Absolutely, that's what makes it so difficult, no one wants to see a team lose most of their games (like Italy) but teams winning most of their games against poor teams with no hope of being allowed to play at a higher standard is just as bad. I really feel for sides like Georgia/Romania (and Canada/USA/Japan) because they have the talent and infrastructure to progress but even when they do play the big sides it tends to be a XV rather than the first choice team so they learn nothing other than they're not far off competing with the Irish Wolfhounds, etc. Then we get a world cup they put in 1 or 2 decent performances and people act surprised before ignoring them for another 4 years. The attitude needs to be far more inclusive if the sport is to develop further.
That's right, Paul, I reckon between us we could restructure World Rugby. ;)
I'd love to, first order of business would be feeding at the scrum, followed by throwing straight at the line out and lots of videos of why Richie McCaw is a fucking cheat.
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The thing is the smaller teams won't improve by being in a league 2 and one of them playing a big boy every 5-6 years. If we really want to see major improvement we need to make the competition bigger and get more of the smaller sides playing against the big teams regularly. As you said, Italy had improved a lot before this recent slump through the exposure to the higher level of competition, unfortunately they're in a slump right now because they have a lot of players who aren't ready for internationals yet but who are playing. Take the weekend for example, they missed 3 fairly straightforward penalties when the game was still tight. If Canna had put the 3rd of those over it'd have been 15-9 and you're looking at a different game.
I'd like to see them have a chance at winning a game a little more often but I'd rather do that by expanding rather than making things more elitist at the top. A possible alternative could be to have 1 in 4 that's the expanded version. I think a minimum 4 year cycle is important though, teams need to be given time to adapt to the higher standard and any swapping around before that would just be pointless.
Fair points, Paul.
I think if you asked 100 people you'd get 100 different solutions.
Maybe something along the lines of 2 'divisions' but the 2nd tier teams have to be invited to play at least two games in the Autumn internationals. I think that's a long the route Argentina took, although I'm not 100% sure of that.
Absolutely, that's what makes it so difficult, no one wants to see a team lose most of their games (like Italy) but teams winning most of their games against poor teams with no hope of being allowed to play at a higher standard is just as bad. I really feel for sides like Georgia/Romania (and Canada/USA/Japan) because they have the talent and infrastructure to progress but even when they do play the big sides it tends to be a XV rather than the first choice team so they learn nothing other than they're not far off competing with the Irish Wolfhounds, etc. Then we get a world cup they put in 1 or 2 decent performances and people act surprised before ignoring them for another 4 years. The attitude needs to be far more inclusive if the sport is to develop further.
That's right, Paul, I reckon between us we could restructure World Rugby. ;)
I'd love to, first order of business would be feeding at the scrum, followed by throwing straight at the line out and lots of videos of why Richie McCaw is a fucking cheat.
Richie McCaw, a cheat?? Never 😊
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If you stopped England v virtually any other side, you'd immediately lose masses of TV revenue and interest and the competition would die. The fact every team plays every other is what makes it special, so the two division nonsense would scupper it.
Most of the nations want to play and beat England and if they didn't have that opportunity it would devalue it for them too.
As for Italy, every team goes through good spells and bad spells, they'll get better again. Georgia could make a case for expansion to 7 Nations but the clubs would be frustrated at yet another International weekend. I wouldn't add the likes of Japan etc as the distances involved would make it unreasonable.
The tournament is interesting and most teams have a chance of beating anyone else.
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If you stopped England v virtually any other side, you'd immediately lose masses of TV revenue and interest and the competition would die. The fact every team plays every other is what makes it special, so the two division nonsense would scupper it.
Most of the nations want to play and beat England and if they didn't have that opportunity it would devalue it for them too.
As for Italy, every team goes through good spells and bad spells, they'll get better again. Georgia could make a case for expansion to 7 Nations but the clubs would be frustrated at yet another International weekend. I wouldn't add the likes of Japan etc as the distances involved would make it unreasonable.
The tournament is interesting and most teams have a chance of beating anyone else.
Distance isn't an issue for the Southern Hemisphere teams.
Argentina to NZ and Australia must be some trip.
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The rock and hard place is that the 5Nations/6Nations is such a good tournament it would be a shame to see it go or being watered down through promotion and relegation. But the reality is that the international game needs to be opened up to encourage more countries to pay and to play at a better level. I don't mean immediately but that needs to be the aim. But that may come at the expense of the 6nations.
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The rock and hard place is that the 5Nations/6Nations is such a good tournament it would be a shame to see it go or being watered down through promotion and relegation. But the reality is that the international game needs to be opened up to encourage more countries to pay and to play at a better level. I don't mean immediately but that needs to be the aim. But that may come at the expense of the 6nations.
How about a European Championship every 4 years like the football where it replaces the Six Nations just for that season or would that clash with the Lions?
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The rock and hard place is that the 5Nations/6Nations is such a good tournament it would be a shame to see it go or being watered down through promotion and relegation. But the reality is that the international game needs to be opened up to encourage more countries to pay and to play at a better level. I don't mean immediately but that needs to be the aim. But that may come at the expense of the 6nations.
How about a European Championship every 4 years like the football where it replaces the Six Nations just for that season or would that clash with the Lions?
So have it the year after the world cup, that'd be my choice regardless of the lions because it stops the 'surprise people at the world cup and then get forgotten' that I mentioned.
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And to ensure that the RFU and their European counterparts do not lose their cash cow there could still be tests in the spring between the 4 other big European nations and the autumn tests. A European Championship to overlap by two years with the World Cup. Lions tours can be in one of the years without a European Championship or a World Cup. In the 'friendly' years there could be a game thrown in against Georgia rather than Italy and rotate it amongst other smaller teams.
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The rock and hard place is that the 5Nations/6Nations is such a good tournament it would be a shame to see it go or being watered down through promotion and relegation. But the reality is that the international game needs to be opened up to encourage more countries to pay and to play at a better level. I don't mean immediately but that needs to be the aim. But that may come at the expense of the 6nations.
How about a European Championship every 4 years like the football where it replaces the Six Nations just for that season or would that clash with the Lions?
That's, actually, quite a good idea.
The Lions tours could easily fit in around tournaments.
If, as you suggest, it replaces the 6 nations for that year, England would need to arrange a fixture vrs Scotland for the Calcutta Cup.
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Denny Solomona commits to England.
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Denny Solomona commits to England.
Came on to post this, I think this now has to signal the end of Mike Brown so Daly and/or Watson can move to 15 and we'll have the other one and Nowell competing with Solomona on the wings.
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Denny Solomona commits to England.
Came on to post this, I think this now has to signal the end of Mike Brown so Daly and/or Watson can move to 15 and we'll have the other one and Nowell competing with Solomona on the wings.
Wondered about this a few pages back. Certainly looks the part in the clips I've seen on Rugby Aviva Prem.
He's only 23 so has plenty of time to acclimatise to Union, too.
Another Jason Robinson?
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Not seen much of him. What's his style?
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Denny Solomona commits to England.
Came on to post this, I think this now has to signal the end of Mike Brown so Daly and/or Watson can move to 15 and we'll have the other one and Nowell competing with Solomona on the wings.
Wondered about this a few pages back. Certainly looks the part in the clips I've seen on Rugby Aviva Prem.
He's only 23 so has plenty of time to acclimatise to Union, too.
Another Jason Robinson?
Very good finisher, loads of pace and good with the ball in hand but I've not seen teams target him defensively yet. I suspect he'll go to Argentina now.
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Not seen much of him. What's his style?
He can finish - http://sport.bt.com/video/solomona-scores-classy-try-on-premiership-debut-91364124047366
He can really finish - http://sport.bt.com/video/solomona-sizzles-in-sales-victory-over-leaders-wasps-91364157567009
and he's got gas - http://sport.bt.com/video/solomona-pounces-for-superb-intercept-score-91364168125864
That'll do I reckon. As Above, very quick, very sharp to spot gaps and a superb finisher (probably the best in the league right now). My question marks are over his defence because he had a few problems in league and I'm not sure the change of codes will have done much to solve them just yet.
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Denny Solomona commits to England.
Came on to post this, I think this now has to signal the end of Mike Brown so Daly and/or Watson can move to 15 and we'll have the other one and Nowell competing with Solomona on the wings.
Wondered about this a few pages back. Certainly looks the part in the clips I've seen on Rugby Aviva Prem.
He's only 23 so has plenty of time to acclimatise to Union, too.
Another Jason Robinson?
Very good finisher, loads of pace and good with the ball in hand but I've not seen teams target him defensively yet. I suspect he'll go to Argentina now.
He certainly will.
I agree regarding targeted defensively, but, being a League convert I'd have thought he would be pretty solid.
If he turns out half as good ar Jason Robinson he'll be one heck of a player.
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Declared for us? Interesting. He would be a fine recruit. And a kick ln the balls for NZ.
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I asked before but no-one replied. What's happened to Christian Wade to fall so far from the international scene? Injuries? He's been scoring tries for fun this season hasn't he?
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Concerns over his defence and lack of size.
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I asked before but no-one replied. What's happened to Christian Wade to fall so far from the international scene? Injuries? He's been scoring tries for fun this season hasn't he?
Thought I had, Paul.
My thoughts are along the line of Great attack, Lightweight defence. Very similar to Roko at Bath.
I've seen a couple of time on the rugby highlights he's been, to easily for me, pushed aside. You'd never imagine Jack Nowell being taken out as easily.
Attack wise he's ahead of the lot
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His size wouldn't matter but his defence lets him down badly. I hoped he'd improve enough to be sufficient but he's making the same mistakes every week still so I suspect he's one that will never make the step up.
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I asked before but no-one replied. What's happened to Christian Wade to fall so far from the international scene? Injuries? He's been scoring tries for fun this season hasn't he?
Thought I had, Paul.
My thoughts are along the line of Great attack, Lightweight defence. Very similar to Roko at Bath.
I've seen a couple of time on the rugby highlights he's been, to easily for me, pushed aside. You'd never imagine Jack Nowell being taken out as easily.
Attack wise he's ahead of the lot
Sorry, you may have neil, but I skipped a few pages around the Ireland defeat so I missed a few posts.
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I asked before but no-one replied. What's happened to Christian Wade to fall so far from the international scene? Injuries? He's been scoring tries for fun this season hasn't he?
Thought I had, Paul.
My thoughts are along the line of Great attack, Lightweight defence. Very similar to Roko at Bath.
I've seen a couple of time on the rugby highlights he's been, to easily for me, pushed aside. You'd never imagine Jack Nowell being taken out as easily.
Attack wise he's ahead of the lot
If you watch the Solomona links I've put up the 2nd one is his hat-trick against wasps and the 2nd of those tries comes from him chipping ahead and Wade stumbling underneath the high ball. In isolation you'd forgive him for losing his footing but misjudging the flight of the ball is something you see from him time and again. defending in the line he's ok for me, despite his size he's powerful enough to generally be able to handle most backs but I think he relies on that power a bit too much and tries to use the touchline and shunt people out of play. If you, as a 5'8 and 12 stone bloke try to do that against a Billy Vunipola you're going to end up looking like a mug every now and then, sometimes you have to accept that and just hit their legs even if you get trampled.
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Those clips were great, Paul.
I hadn't seen the first try, in the corner, vrs Northampton. What a fantastic finish.
Yes, have to say I was a bit disappointed with CW missing the flight on that one try. I suppose in fairness to him, though, the chip over went against his running line so his pace may have gone against him.
I would like to see him have a crack at the top level just to see how he copes.
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Not seen much of him. What's his style?
He can finish - http://sport.bt.com/video/solomona-scores-classy-try-on-premiership-debut-91364124047366
He can really finish - http://sport.bt.com/video/solomona-sizzles-in-sales-victory-over-leaders-wasps-91364157567009
and he's got gas - http://sport.bt.com/video/solomona-pounces-for-superb-intercept-score-91364168125864
That'll do I reckon. As Above, very quick, very sharp to spot gaps and a superb finisher (probably the best in the league right now). My question marks are over his defence because he had a few problems in league and I'm not sure the change of codes will have done much to solve them just yet.
Cheers.
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I asked before but no-one replied. What's happened to Christian Wade to fall so far from the international scene? Injuries? He's been scoring tries for fun this season hasn't he?
Thought I had, Paul.
My thoughts are along the line of Great attack, Lightweight defence. Very similar to Roko at Bath.
I've seen a couple of time on the rugby highlights he's been, to easily for me, pushed aside. You'd never imagine Jack Nowell being taken out as easily.
Attack wise he's ahead of the lot
Sorry, you may have neil, but I skipped a few pages around the Ireland defeat so I missed a few posts.
Just about to pull you up over calling me Neil, when I noticed I'd called you Paul 😯 sorry
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I asked before but no-one replied. What's happened to Christian Wade to fall so far from the international scene? Injuries? He's been scoring tries for fun this season hasn't he?
Thought I had, Paul.
My thoughts are along the line of Great attack, Lightweight defence. Very similar to Roko at Bath.
I've seen a couple of time on the rugby highlights he's been, to easily for me, pushed aside. You'd never imagine Jack Nowell being taken out as easily.
Attack wise he's ahead of the lot
Sorry, you may have neil, but I skipped a few pages around the Ireland defeat so I missed a few posts.
Just about to pull you up over calling me Neil, when I noticed I'd called you Paul 😯 sorry
winky fella
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Interesting read.
Maybe we should be careful what we wish for regarding too much change.
In fairness there have been some very good ideas on this thread which, if implemented correctly, wouldn't result in this.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/04/06/super-12-rugby-shambles-say-former-stars-lament-decline-standards/
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I think that's missing some of the reasons for the problems but adding too much complexity to the system and more importantly too much churn is a very real problem. That's why I firmly believe that any promotion/relegation in the 6N needs to be over a 4 year period at least.
For me the biggest problem in super league rugby right now is that the aussie and SA teams lose their best players to Europe every year.
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This has been going on for years. i remember being in South Africa a few years back and reading an article lamenting the Super 12 then. the problem is also one of distance. No away fans so the intensity of games are lacking compared to the Heineken Cup where each game is played in almost international like conditions. This then brings sponsors and more money in meaning that the top clubs can then spend more on the best players. it's been something that's been on the cards for a while and is inevitable.
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This has been going on for years. i remember being in South Africa a few years back and reading an article lamenting the Super 12 then. the problem is also one of distance. No away fans so the intensity of games are lacking compared to the Heineken Cup where each game is played in almost international like conditions. This then brings sponsors and more money in meaning that the top clubs can then spend more on the best players. it's been something that's been on the cards for a while and is inevitable.
Yep, the distance between the teams is the other big factor. The format changes were intended to limit that as much as to extend the number of teams so I think the criticism in the article is a touch unfair in that regard as well.
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JJ not going to make Lions squad, really?!
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JJ not going to make Lions squad, really?!
Look who Gatland picks in the centres for Wales, JJ is 4-5 inches too short.
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Yep and the attempt to go toe to toe in respect of physicality against the All Blacks will fail.
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Warburton captain............Anyone else think there are going to be a lot of Welsh players in the squad
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Full squad
Forwards:
Rory Best (Ireland), Dan Cole (England), Taulupe Faletau (Wales), Tadhg Furlong (Ireland), Jamie George (England), Iain Henderson (Ireland), Maro Itoje (England), Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), George Kruis (England), Courtney Lawes (England), Joe Marler (England), Jack McGrath (Ireland), Ross Moriarty (Wales), Sean O'Brien (Ireland), Peter O'Mahony (Ireland), Ken Owens (Wales), Kyle Sinckler (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), Justin Tipuric (Wales), Billy Vunipola (England), Mako Vunipola (England), Sam Warburton (Wales)
Backs:
Dan Biggar (Wales), Elliot Daly (England), Jonathan Davies (Wales), Owen Farrell (England), Leigh Halfpenny (Wales), Robbie Henshaw (Ireland), Stuart Hogg (Scotland), Jonathan Joseph (England), Conor Murray (Ireland), George North (Wales), Jack Nowell (England), Jared Payne (Ireland), Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), Tommy Seymour (Scotland), Ben Te'o (England), Anthony Watson (England), Rhys Webb (Wales), Liam Williams (Wales), Ben Youngs (England)
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Twelve Wales players and two Scots?
Ermmm....
http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings/mru?lang=en
http://www.rbs6nations.com/mobile/en/matchcentre/league_table.php#DsGXgbziKTL3URr6.97
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39054808
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(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/A1CC/production/_95702414_fgasdfg.jpg)
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Fucked if I can be arsed to get up early to watch the Welsh Lions.
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The number of welsh players in that squad is a disgrace but it was always going to be the case by picking the welsh coach that he'd go with the players he knows. More welsh than Irish is the biggest piss take for me, how the fuck Halfpenny is lost on me, the guy has nothing but a kick from the tee and even then he's not as good as Farrell or Sexton who should be first and second pick at 10. I doubt I'll watch anything other than the tests though, Gatland is a shit coach who will just have us kicking to the stars and trying to disrupt the catcher as our primary attacking threat.
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If he goes and plays Warrenball we'll get battered. Not sure how 12 Welsh get in.
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AWJ gets in, even though there were at least 6 better 2nd row players this 6 nations.
Biggar? I'd have gone with Paddy Jackson as back up to Sexton.
Tough on the Scottish lads, I'd have had at least 4 in there
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England squad for Argentina tour
Forwards: Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap), Dylan Hartley - captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps), James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped), Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps), Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps), Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)
Backs: Mike Brown - vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps), Danny Care - vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps), Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped), Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped), George Ford - vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps), Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped), Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped), Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped), Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped), Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped), Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
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I'm ok with most of that but how has Jack Maunder overtaken Dan Robson and how is Tommy Taylor (who's in the EPS) not included.
Piers Francis is an interesting inclusion, he looks a hell of a player.
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Joe Marchant looks class to me.
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Yeah, I do like the idea of seeing Mallinder, Marchant, Cokanasiga and Solomona as 11-14.
I'm also happy that the Curry brothers and Harry Williams are in.
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Hope we'll be able to get TV coverage from Argentina.
That looks a great squad.
By blooding so many young guns, Eddie certainly appears to have the next 6 nations and the World Cup in mind
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Not too sure what Mike Haley has or hasn't done not to be selected for the Argentina tour. He was one of the standout players on the Saxons tour to South Africa last summer and looks as good as any other english back up to Brown at full back.
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Back to the Lions.
10 matches all told, how many do you think they'll win?
If Gatland plays his brand of 'bash it up the middle rugby' then the tests will go 3-0 to the ABs.
Of the other games I'd say 4 of the 7 should be winnable but it will be tough watching some of the talent in the Super Rugby that can't even get near the ABs 15. Gatland will want to and need to protect his test team. I honestly think this has the potential to be an embarrassment.
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I think that's about right.
I can't see our reserves beating the Crusaders in the match between the first and 2nd test and the chiefs the week before will be a tough game as well because again you'd only expect cameos from his first 15. The other tough one is the hurricanes who are currently smashing lumps out of teams for fun and look like a very strong side. On top of that we're playing them early enough that they'll have their international players available and they have a few of the very best.
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I think that's about right.
I can't see our reserves beating the Crusaders in the match between the first and 2nd test and the chiefs the week before will be a tough game as well because again you'd only expect cameos from his first 15. The other tough one is the hurricanes who are currently smashing lumps out of teams for fun and look like a very strong side. On top of that we're playing them early enough that they'll have their international players available and they have a few of the very best.
The Crusaders and Chiefs will probably not play their strongest teams or anywhere near it, given in the Crusaders case that most of their forward pack are existing All Blacks and won't be free to play for their province. I would fear for the Lions if the Crusaders were allowed to put their first team out, they're not a bad side .
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Ben Youngs out of the Lions squad in horrible circumstances, thoughts with him and more particularly his brother.
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Very sad.
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The draw for the next World Cup is tomorrow morning (our time).
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My boy at Gloucester is very pissed off about Gatlands meet and greet.
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My boy at Gloucester is very pissed off about Gatlands meet and greet.
Is that deliberately cryptic or am I just being stupid?
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New Zealand, Wales, Argentina make it happen!
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Pool C: England, France, Argentina, Americas 1, Oceania 2
Tough but very winnable group
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Full draw.
Pool A: Ireland, Scotland, Japan, Europe 1, Play-Off winner
Pool B: New Zealand, South Africa, Italy, Africa 1, Repechage winner
Pool C: England, France, Argentina, Americas 1, Oceania 2
Pool D: Australia, Wales, Georgia, Oceania 1, Americas 2
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Decent draw for Scotland but I'm assuming As play Bs in the QFs so we have to finish top to avoid New Zealand. Even then it would be South Africa. Semis look unlikely but you never know.
England should qualify but I can't choose out of France or Argentina. Will likely be Fiji or Samoa in that group, too.
Would be nice to see Georgia or, more likely, Samoa or Fiji, give the Welsh a bloody nose for a laugh.
Could be some one-sided games in Group B with New Zealand and South Africa likely playing the likes of Namibia and Uruguay.
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Pool C: England, France, Argentina, Americas 1, Oceania 2
Tough but very winnable group
Argentina as the 3rd team makes that comfortably the toughest group because that's 3 teams who expect to qualify, none of the other groups have that.
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Pool C: England, France, Argentina, Americas 1, Oceania 2
Tough but very winnable group
Argentina as the 3rd team makes that comfortably the toughest group because that's 3 teams who expect to qualify, none of the other groups have that.
Nope once again we've got a rough one.
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My boy at Gloucester is very pissed off about Gatlands meet and greet.
Is that deliberately cryptic or am I just being stupid?
Apologies. It is the European finals this weekend and Gloucester and Saracens are in them. So an important week of preparation. Some players lost Monday as Gatland decided the first Lions get together would be then.
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BBC are going to show England v Argentina tests on 10th & 17th June
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World Cup 2019 draw
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39868565
Pool A: Ireland, Scotland, Japan, Europe 1, play-off winner (Europe 2 v Oceania 3)
Pool B: New Zealand, South Africa, Italy, Africa 1, repechage winner
Pool C: England, France, Argentina, Americas 1, Oceania 2
Pool D: Australia, Wales, Georgia, Oceania 1, Americas 2
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Was already posted about 6-7 posts before your one and I've already passed comment that the England Group is easily the hardest, Ireland appear to have been given a bye.
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We'll beat Argentina. France will be the tough one. get through that and i don't think it really matters in the quarter-finals. i think we play Pool D teams don't we? If so, Australia or Wales is an okay game. Nowhere near as tougha s Wales and Australia were in the last World Cup - when we should have beaten Wales.
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Was already posted about 6-7 posts before your one and I've already passed comment that the England Group is easily the hardest, Ireland appear to have been given a bye.
I bet SA thought that when they had Japan in their group in 2015!
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Was already posted about 6-7 posts before your one and I've already passed comment that the England Group is easily the hardest, Ireland appear to have been given a bye.
I bet SA thought that when they had Japan in their group in 2015!
i was largely taking the piss but to be honest if you asked pretty much anyone to choose the better team between Argentina and Japan I doubt many would go for Japan and that's against the 3rd best team in our group.
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I think both Scotland and Ireland will have to be around their best to see off Japan.
If I was to take a long shot bet I would go with Japan to qualify. I think, as SA found out, they are more than capable of springing a surprise.
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I think both Scotland and Ireland will have to be around their best to see off Japan.
If I was to take a long shot bet I would go with Japan to qualify. I think, as SA found out, they are more than capable of springing a surprise.
I'm not sure, In the autumn they got hammered by Argentina and lost fairly comfortably to Scotland. I also wonder how much of their performance in the world cup was thanks to our manager. On top of that they were one of the older squads at the tournament so they'll have a lot of churn over the next couple of years.
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I think Japan will improve. With The Sunwolves now playing in Super Rugby(and their results getting better than last year), their players will get some good experience of playing regularly at a competitive level.
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I think both Scotland and Ireland will have to be around their best to see off Japan.
If I was to take a long shot bet I would go with Japan to qualify. I think, as SA found out, they are more than capable of springing a surprise.
I'm not sure, In the autumn they got hammered by Argentina and lost fairly comfortably to Scotland. I also wonder how much of their performance in the world cup was thanks to our manager. On top of that they were one of the older squads at the tournament so they'll have a lot of churn over the next couple of years.
Fair points, as always, but, as JD says, they should improve.
Plus the fact they are the host nation, and the hosts always do well...😉
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Willi Heinze called up by England on account of an English grandparent?
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Willi Heinze called up by England on account of an English grandparent?
The bigger problem here is that Willi Heinz is being called up whilst Dan Robson and Joe Simpson are twiddling their thumbs. I've got a lot of respect for Eddie Jones and his results have been superb but I just don't get what he's looking for in a 9 which makes him keep picking Care whilst ignoring those 2 and then exacerbating it by not giving either of them a chance when the squad is weakened by the Lions. If it was someone like Maunder at Exeter I'd be ok with it but a 30 year old with very loose eligibility seems a really odd choice. I can only think it's because he's been captain a few times and he's concerned about leadership but I don't think shipping in people who've been leaders elsewhere is the right way to handle that (a particularly fitting line to type on a Villa website).
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Heinz has done alright at Gloucester this season, don't get me wrong. I am buggered as to what he brings that Robson doesn't though.
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It's one of those weird quirks though. Virtually every coach/manager has a couple of players who they really rate when one else does and vice versa.
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He is a better scrum half than Laidlaw who is off with the Lions. He isn't a patch on Robson who we let go to keep Laidlaw. And his experience. But mostly his kicking.
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Laidlaw is shite, it was a blessing in disguise for the scots that he got injured early in the 6N because they had to switch to a 9 who can actually run and pass after that. If he didn't have a kicking average in the high 80s and a good box kick he'd be playing at championship/national 1 standard not with the lions, I can honestly think of 2-3 9s I've played with that are at least as good as him.
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Yet is considered a huge miss by us domestically because we can't pay what the frogs are. Velacott as a kid is as capable as Laidlaw in defence and chucking the ball around.
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Heinz played for the Crusaders (Canterbury) for a few years and was a pretty good player for them. Maybe it's the NZ insight that Gatland has picked him for? I have no idea how he is playing etc, I can only go on his previous playing over here.
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Heinz played for the Crusaders (Canterbury) for a few years and was a pretty good player for them. Maybe it's the NZ insight that Gatland has picked him for? I have no idea how he is playing etc, I can only go on his previous playing over here.
No it's not Gatland/Lions. It's to join the England team before they go to Argentina (but with no plan for him to tour as far as I can see).
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Heinz played for the Crusaders (Canterbury) for a few years and was a pretty good player for them. Maybe it's the NZ insight that Gatland has picked him for? I have no idea how he is playing etc, I can only go on his previous playing over here.
No it's not Gatland/Lions. It's to join the England team before they go to Argentina (but with no plan for him to tour as far as I can see).
Sorry, should have read the full posts properly. In that case it seems a strange choice. I could understand if it was for the Lions but not England.
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Eddie Jones has lost 1 in 19 for England.
I'm backing his judgement.
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I am not suggesting Heinz has no ability, just that I struggle to understand why you pick an uncapped 30 year old kiwi ahead of Robson given the youthful nature of the rest of them.
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I am not suggesting Heinz has no ability, just that I struggle to understand why you pick an uncapped 30 year old kiwi ahead of Robson given the youthful nature of the rest of them.
Exactly, it seems at odds with the rest of the touring squad.
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Perhaps his Southern hemisphere team toured Argentina and he knows some good restaurants and wineries!
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As far as I'm aware Heinz was only called up for the training camp last week. The reason Robson and or Simpson weren't was because they were with Wasps preparing for the semi final. Eddie just needs numbers that's all 👍🏻
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As far as I'm aware Heinz was only called up for the training camp last week. The reason Robson and or Simpson weren't was because they were with Wasps preparing for the semi final. Eddie just needs numbers that's all 👍🏻
That's probably right, I'm just frustrated that Robson isn't going to Argentina. Again today he came on and completely changed the tempo of the game which is why I'd like him to be with the squad. What I love about the current England team is that our best bench is full of players who work in a more broken game, it's why it works so well because we let the game expand and bring on specialists to work in the open spaces. Except for Care who often slows play down.
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Billy V is out of the lions squad with Haskell replacing him.
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That is a big blow.
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Lions management not happy that he has finished his domestic duties and now pulls out.
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I think anyone who watched the semi will have seen that he was struggling all through it, he stayed down 3-4 times and was carrying his arm 'wrong' for most of the match, the commentators mentioned it 2 or 3 times but they seemed to think it was his wrist/forearm rather than his shoulder.
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Pleased that James Haskell got the nod for the Lions. If anyone deserved his place after the last year and a bit it's him.
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Pleased that James Haskell got the nod for the Lions. If anyone deserved his place after the last year and a bit it's him.
Haskell is a limited player in my opinion, however whilst he was injured he'd often be seen on the wasps bench. Invariably he was either messing about or supporting the team. Add in his seeming obsession with working out and fitness and i think he'll be a great tourist but probably not a great player. If his personality raises 'the sum of the parts' then his place is more than justified imo.
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Pleased that James Haskell got the nod for the Lions. If anyone deserved his place after the last year and a bit it's him.
Haskell is a limited player in my opinion, however whilst he was injured he'd often be seen on the wasps bench. Invariably he was either messing about or supporting the team. Add in his seeming obsession with working out and fitness and i think he'll be a great tourist but probably not a great player. If his personality raises 'the sum of the parts' then his place is more than justified imo.
He is a good character, a good leader and an excellent example of having the right attitude. I also think he deserves a lot of respect for how he came back after a year in Japan which looked like it was a retirement gig, again that says a lot for his attitude and desire which can make up for a lot of deficiencies. I just wish he'd spent a bit more time learning the basics instead of pumping weights, I've called him a meathead enough times on this forum for my views on his abilities to be fairly clear.
All that said I think he does deserve a place on the tour because there's a lot of players in that squad with just as many technical faults and nothing like the same drive. That's sounds a bit like a 1eyed man in th eland of the blind faint praise but that's not my intention, I think if he'd played in the 6N he'd have been in the original squad and I'm glad he's getting his chance now.
As a slight aside with stuff like this I wish the Lions tours came with a list of replacements already in place. It would only need to be 10-12 names and it probably already exists in some form (i.e. Gatland has probably spoken to the coaches and told them who is in his thinking if they get injuries) so I don't see why it isn't just made public.
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All I will add about James Haskell is that I saw him in my local when I was living in Paris and he was at Stade Français. I have never seen a larger human being. His head alone, in memory now almost all jawbone, was literally (and I mean this as an actual "literally", rather than a football-pundit "literally") twice the size of anyone else's in the bar - and that's before taking ego / Brand Haskell into account.
The crazy thing is, that he looks relatively "right-sized" compared to the other forwards on the pitch, so I shudder to think what bumping into them must be like. I can scarcely fathom what it must be like to find oneself stood next to Devin Toner or another equally-towering lock...
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The above reminds me of the Withnail and I scene, ' Look at him! Look at Geoff Woade! His head must weight fifty pounds on its own. Imagine the size of his balls. Imagine getting into a fight with the fucker!'
I think Haskell will be a decent member of the squad and it wouldn't surprise me if he managed to get into the test team.
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All I will add about James Haskell is that I saw him in my local when I was living in Paris and he was at Stade Français. I have never seen a larger human being. His head alone, in memory now almost all jawbone, was literally (and I mean this as an actual "literally", rather than a football-pundit "literally") twice the size of anyone else's in the bar - and that's before taking ego / Brand Haskell into account.
The crazy thing is, that he looks relatively "right-sized" compared to the other forwards on the pitch, so I shudder to think what bumping into them must be like. I can scarcely fathom what it must be like to find oneself stood next to Devin Toner or another equally-towering lock...
I've met Martin Johnson and he's both fucking huge anyway but also seems 'more' than guys just as tall. Easily the most intimidating person I've ever met.
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The story about how Martin Johnson got the captaincy always makes me laugh.
Can't remember coach, but, his words, along the lines of 'I wanted someone to fill the door and look down on the opposition captain' :)
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Yes, Paul, that's exactly it. Haskell is listed as 6' 4". I know a few people who are a similar height - my father-in-law himself is 6' 7". It's a "volume" thing. Just enormously wide & deep without being fat.
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Yes, Paul, that's exactly it. Haskell is listed as 6' 4". I know a few people who are a similar height - my father-in-law himself is 6' 7". It's a "volume" thing. Just enormously wide & deep without being fat.
With Johnno it's more than just that, it was 2004 when I met him so he was obviously a world cup winning captain as well but it was just his presence. It's hard to explain properly but he's one of those people that you feel enter the room. Really nice guy, and really happy to chat with us but also the person I've felt most guarded with. I'm generally quite outspoken and certainly have no problem sharing an opinion but I found myself wanting to say something he'd be happy to hear which was a fairly new experience for me.
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Paul Hill and Joe Marchant both out of the Argentina tour, that's a big blow. No news on replacements yet.
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Team to face the barbarians:
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 60 caps)
14. Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
13. Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
12. Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 71 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
2. Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
3. Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
4. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
5. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
8. Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Finishers:
16. George McGuigan (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
18. Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol Rugby, uncapped)
19. Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
20. Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
21. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
22. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 27 caps)
23. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Obviously Saints, Wasps and Chiefs players missing means a lot of faces that won't start in Argentina and a very inexperienced side but it's still a very decent team.
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I do hope Haskell does his video diary again, the one he did for the tour to the shackle draggers was hilarious.
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Team to face the barbarians:
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 60 caps)
14. Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
13. Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
12. Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
9. Danny Care (Harlequins, 71 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
2. Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
3. Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
4. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
5. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
8. Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Finishers:
16. George McGuigan (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
17. Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
18. Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol Rugby, uncapped)
19. Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
20. Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
21. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
22. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 27 caps)
23. Mike Haley (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Obviously Saints, Wasps and Chiefs players missing means a lot of faces that won't start in Argentina and a very inexperienced side but it's still a very decent team.
Going to this game, so looking forward to it.
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Looking at both teams it should be a great game. Watch out for Earle, he's very inexperienced but absolutely rapid.
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Earle looked very raw, but had a lot of potential.
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Earle looked very raw, but had a lot of potential.
Big, quick, strong and technically sound, give him a couple of years and he'll be a top winger I reckon.
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Earle looked very raw, but had a lot of potential.
Big, quick, strong and technically sound, give him a couple of years and he'll be a top winger I reckon.
Is that the lad of whom Eddie Jones said, when asked about his inexperience, 'He's big and he's fast, let's see'
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Lots of "virgins" at the match yesterday down to the cheap tickets, which is good. Some were so immersed in what they thought was rugby drinking culture they never saw a minute of so the match. I've never had to move & let someone out of our row to let someone out at any event as I did yesterday. Took the gloss of the day.
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Pretty poor and sluggish start for the Lions, they'll need to improve a lot.
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Pretty poor and sluggish start for the Lions, they'll need to improve a lot.
Gatland Junior looked a decent outside-half.
For the Lions, Sinckler and Faletau did OK
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Pretty ordinary really, still, it's all about getting together and gelling as a team so onwards and upwards (still think we'll lose 0-3)
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After watching The Canterbury Crusaders play yesterday and then The Lions last night, if they play like that again next weekend Canterbury will unfortunately murder The Lions.
Let's just hope that was jetlag etc which caused The Lions to be so poor.
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What's the general view over there JD? Any mention of Billy V being out being crucial?
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What's the general view over there JD? Any mention of Billy V being out being crucial?
There has been talk of The Lions not being as strong due to Billy V pulling out and most people over here think The Lions will get a hiding from the AB's. The press over here crucified them after last nights performance, especially if you compare the game to the Crusaders v Highlanders game which was played yesterday.
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I think we've taken the wrong approach by having an emphasis on big baulky players all over rather than the most skillfuk players. Does Gatland (Snr) come for any flak because of his Welsh centric selections? Or are they that disinterested and think the All- Blacks would beat whichever team we sent out?
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I think the press were surprised that there were so many Welsh players and not more Scottish, but given Gatland is coach it was kind of expected. Whatever players he picked the AB's are confident of turning them over. I don't think The Lions could take the AB's on in a faster game, so maybe Gatland thinks The Lions can out muscle the AB's. I doubt that will happen though.
Good news for The Lions though, Ryan Crotty injured his ribs on Saturday playing for the Crusaders and is doubtful for the tests. He has been outstanding this year.
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What a shit hour of rugby from the Lions. Gatland needs to think about something other than the set piece because we're predictable as fuck in open play, pass it to static runners for 4-5 phases and then boot it to the moon and try to get runners underneath.
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I see the Anglo-Welsh and Irish Lions lost.
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The Lions were useless. Can't even beat the worst Super Rugby Team in New Zealand. It was horrible to watch.
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useless bastards. but still, haven't been in NZ long and is we win the test series no-one will remember this game or result. maybe Gatland can stop just trying to play by set-pieces?
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useless bastards. but still, haven't been in NZ long and is we win the test series no-one will remember this game or result. maybe Gatland can stop just trying to play by set-pieces?
I honestly don't think he knows how to fix this. 2 of the major problems today were that Stander isn't an 8 and Webb/Laidlaw can't generate quick ball, add in the fact that the 8, 9 and 10 axis don't really know each other and you get the dull shite that was served up this morning. This is exactly what i was worried about when Gatland got the gig and when he called in Laidlaw for Youngs it became clearer still. We won't win the series, I doubt we'll win a test and, as has been said before, I wouldn't be all that surprised if we lose more than we win on this tour. The squad is unbalanced and the coach is totally out of his depth but people seme to have taken a win over a very poor australian side as an excuse to pick many of the same players and coaching staff, regardless of form and performance and what you get is the shambles that has been the first 2 matches.
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Jack Nowell was particularly poor and the line out was bobbins.
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That was a horror of a defeat.
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Gatland has picked too many Welsh players and is forcing those used to a more expansive game to play like 90's England before the game went pro. He is shite.
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They are are in a country that has tremendous strength and depth, with a bunch of players that have been thrown together not having played much before.
Rugby more and more is about structure and organisation, something that has made the Lions task harder since professionalism. They have also lost one of their truly world class players at the base of the scrum.
Whilst they weren't great yesterday they were undone by some wonderful centre play from Williams, and the bounce of the ball off an upright.
Lets hope they can grow into the tour as it goes on, as this was supposedly the second easiest game.
I am trying to be positive...
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On a positive note for The Lions, the unbeaten (this season) Canterbury Crusaders have only selected seven All Blacks in their team for Saturdays game (obviously going to take it easy on The Lions).
Sell out crowd for Saturday, so it should be a great atmosphere.
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We'll win Saturday. Guaranteed.
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We'll win Saturday. Guaranteed.
Not a chance Peter, The Crusaders will win.
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21-16 Lions. Or 31-26.
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21-16 Lions. Or 31-26.
I treally depends on if Gatland is learning anything. If we play the way we have in the first 2 tests it'll be the crusaders by 15-20 points and the real humiliation will begin.
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Great buzz around town already today. Been to the Gym which overlooks the stadium and all the bars nearby are setting up for a big night.
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Farrell has to be the starting 10 he's offering much more control than the other two.
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Yep, this is the right 8, 9, 10 combo and has to be the test setup, we look better because we have control in those key roles. T'eo has been good at 12 as well.
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Great game.
Lions completely nullified Crusaders.
Was interesting to see our front row come out on top of what might be the All Blacks front 3.
Maco was excellent.
As were Farrell & Murrey, that pair have to be the starting 9 & 10. There were a few heroes out on the pitch
Felt sorry for Hogg, but Watson did well. I also felt sorry for bandy legs Williams, he really had some awful passes to try and deal with.
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Well i said we'd win.
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Indeed you did Peter, indeed you did. Now, go and get yourself an ice cream then can you please give me tonight's winning lottery numbers?
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Watson at full back was very good.
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
Far better performance and result today. The team is shaping up now and I would expect something like below for next Saturday and the first test:
Halfpenny, North, Te'o, Farrell, Daly, Sexton, Murray, Vunipola, Owens, Furlong, AWJ, Kruis, Stander, Warburton, Faletau
Subs - McGrath, George, Cole, Itoje, O'Brien, Webb, Biggar, Watson
Gatland loves Halfpenny and has played him consistently at full-back when there have been many calls in Wales for him to switch to the wing and Liam Williams play there. I think it is his defensive game that Gatland rates and of course there is his goal kicking.
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
Bollocks off you're not claiming any part of this. I, and I alone.
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Thought Watson did really well, but, Halfpenny will get the nod as he's a Gatland boy.
Though it was odd moving Farrell to 13 when Sexton came on for Davis. I'd have thought Farrell 12 and T'eo 13. That said, it seemed to work ok.
Settling down for Argentina v England :)
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
Far better performance and result today. The team is shaping up now and I would expect something like below for next Saturday and the first test:
Halfpenny, North, Te'o, Farrell, Daly, Sexton, Murray, Vunipola, Owens, Furlong, AWJ, Kruis, Stander, Warburton, Faletau
Subs - McGrath, George, Cole, Itoje, O'Brien, Webb, Biggar, Watson
Gatland loves Halfpenny and has played him consistently at full-back when there have been many calls in Wales for him to switch to the wing and Liam Williams play there. I think it is his defensive game that Gatland rates and of course there is his goal kicking.
I know it's unlikely to happen but I'd definitely have Itoje in over AWJ. Above anyone in fact. I'd also have Marler in the squad as I think his scrummaging will be key off the bench.
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
Far better performance and result today. The team is shaping up now and I would expect something like below for next Saturday and the first test:
Halfpenny, North, Te'o, Farrell, Daly, Sexton, Murray, Vunipola, Owens, Furlong, AWJ, Kruis, Stander, Warburton, Faletau
Subs - McGrath, George, Cole, Itoje, O'Brien, Webb, Biggar, Watson
Gatland loves Halfpenny and has played him consistently at full-back when there have been many calls in Wales for him to switch to the wing and Liam Williams play there. I think it is his defensive game that Gatland rates and of course there is his goal kicking.
From that team I'd swap Owens for George & AJW for Itoje
With Farrell, Sexton and Daly for kicking it sort of makes a case for not playing Halfpenny.
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As it is I'd also drop Sexton. Biggar at 10 Farrell at 12. But thinking about it Farrell at 12 works better because of his understanding with ford. So, Farrell at 10 and Joseph at 12.
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As it is I'd also drop Sexton. Biggar at 10 Farrell at 12. But thinking about it Farrell at 12 works better because of his understanding with ford. So, Farrell at 10 and Joseph at 12.
Blimey, I'd forgotten about JJ
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easily done. not being Welsh Gatland will have forgotten about him, too. He's our most skillful centre but not a 6ft 6 brick shithouse so clearly not good enough.
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Tom Curry, 18, starting for England
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Really tough game this with so many missing.
Looking forward to seeing how some of the kids olay, the bench is very exciting.
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Really tough game this with so many missing.
Looking forward to seeing how some of the kids olay, the bench is very exciting.
It's an interesting game. We've done well, but unsurprisingly we're a bit light.
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The midfield isn't working, Lozowski looks out of position and not ready for this level. Had a great run in broken field for the try though so he's obviously one to keep an eye on.
Hughes has been superb and Curry will be an exceptional talent by the world cup
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Unbelievable from Slade, incredible.
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Great by Slade.
Ford playing well
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I can only mirror the last 2 comments, that was magic from slade. Solomona has had the worst first 5 minutes ever.
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Great stuff from Argentina.
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Oh dear, Denny
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On the plus side Denny can only get better.
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As expected we're struggling with control.
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Yep, inexperience is costing us now but this is still a valuable experience.
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It is it'll be great learning.
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Ford's been magnificent with the boot.
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Superb.
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Lovely play from Ford and Francis
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Ford's been magnificent with the boot.
Ford has been great throughout
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
Far better performance and result today. The team is shaping up now and I would expect something like below for next Saturday and the first test:
Halfpenny, North, Te'o, Farrell, Daly, Sexton, Murray, Vunipola, Owens, Furlong, AWJ, Kruis, Stander, Warburton, Faletau
Subs - McGrath, George, Cole, Itoje, O'Brien, Webb, Biggar, Watson
Gatland loves Halfpenny and has played him consistently at full-back when there have been many calls in Wales for him to switch to the wing and Liam Williams play there. I think it is his defensive game that Gatland rates and of course there is his goal kicking.
I know it's unlikely to happen but I'd definitely have Itoje in over AWJ. Above anyone in fact. I'd also have Marler in the squad as I think his scrummaging will be key off the bench.
I think the days of it being a XV man game are gone Peter. The modern day coaches have to now think about how to best utilise the squad of 23 over the full 80. With all the options they have got, the All Blacks are able to do it and end up blowing teams away in the final stages. You really want impact players coming on 20-30 minutes out for the final stages.
On a separate note, this is a great effort from England.
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For an inexperienced team we've only conceded 6 penalties, so fat
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Touche Solomona
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Solomona makes uo for his start.
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Oh Denny!
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What a match.
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Agree, brilliant game. Very impressed by curry and francis in particular.
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I thought Slade was magnificent in the second half.
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Slade has class, first half we couldn't get a grip on the game so he never got into things, 2nd half he swapped to 12 until Francis came on and looked better. Once Francis came on the 10, 12, 13 just worked better because Lozowski really struggled.
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Yeah Lozowski showed glimpses but he struggled to fit into the structure. Slade is someone I'd like to see involved more and more. Denny needs to sort his defence and he'll be a serious asset,
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Indeed Peter, to be fair I said we had to change the way we played and that very clearly happened, that was a much better balance. To beat teams with that level of quality in you need to control things and to do that you need the right type of players at 8-10. Today he picked the best 3 in the squad and let them play a more natural game and we looked a far better side for it. A good performance in the front row and centres helped a lot as well.
I agree with PWA that Watson gave us an extra dimension as well. I missed the first match so no idea how that went but in the week Halfpenny showed just how shit he is so seeing a proper full back performance was good. Hogg is a funny one, he has some quality but I think there's a lot wrong with his game as well.
Bollocks off you're not claiming any part of this. I, and I alone.
Only just spotted this one. I think you misunderstand me, I'm shocked that we won because I'd seen nothing to suggest he was planning to play how we did this morning, I was trying to say why I thought you were wrong, I expected 2-3 more matches before he realised that playing like wales+ was fucking stupid.
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Yeah Lozowski showed glimpses but he struggled to fit into the structure. Slade is someone I'd like to see involved more and more. Denny needs to sort his defence and he'll be a serious asset,
I think Jones likes Lozowski but this should be the sign that he's probably not one for now. He's a great ball carrier and he has a solid skillset but as you say he doesn't 'get' the England structure right now.
I agree on Solomona. It's basically what I said about him 4-5 months ago when he was scoring for fun for Sale, he's as good a finisher as anyone in the world (as he showed) but his defence is suspect and he's a bit maverick. I think he'll be a fucking brilliant player for us though.
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Well i said we'd win.
You did mate and fair play to The Lions, they looked a lot better last night.
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Did you see the press conference from the coach and captain - the coach is a gracious loser isn't he? Typical New Zealander when it comes to rugby - lose and it's everyone else's fault.
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Didn't watch it Pete. The press and everyone else over here are complaining about the ref etc. I'll say something for a lot of NZers, they are very sore losers. I cant imagine how bad the meltdown will be if The Lions do beat the All Blacks.
They were complaining about the pitch in the cricket when they lost to England earlier in the week, at least Kane Williamson had the grace to admit they were outplayed.
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What an amazing advert for rugby that test match was? Best of all the officials, Nigel Owens proving that it is possible to let a game flow without the need for TMOs and other such nonsense every time there's a try or decision to be made, same goes to his supporting officials, bloody superb they all were.
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What an amazing advert for rugby that test match was? Best of all the officials, Nigel Owens proving that it is possible to let a game flow without the need for TMOs and other such nonsense every time there's a try or decision to be made, same goes to his supporting officials, bloody superb they all were.
He showed why he's such a good ref by admitting to a mistake at one point. I'd love to see that in football rather than hiding behind the FA.
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What an amazing advert for rugby that test match was? Best of all the officials, Nigel Owens proving that it is possible to let a game flow without the need for TMOs and other such nonsense every time there's a try or decision to be made, same goes to his supporting officials, bloody superb they all were.
He showed why he's such a good ref by admitting to a mistake at one point. I'd love to see that in football rather than hiding behind the FA.
Yes, when that happened my mate and I looked across at each other and just nodded our approval. No words were needed.
That's why he's the best ref in world rugby.
Going back to Solomona. I mentioned him way back in this thread, and you got it spot on with your reply regarding defence.
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What an amazing advert for rugby that test match was? Best of all the officials, Nigel Owens proving that it is possible to let a game flow without the need for TMOs and other such nonsense every time there's a try or decision to be made, same goes to his supporting officials, bloody superb they all were.
He showed why he's such a good ref by admitting to a mistake at one point. I'd love to see that in football rather than hiding behind the FA.
Yes, when that happened my mate and I looked across at each other and just nodded our approval. No words were needed.
That's why he's the best ref in world rugby.
Going back to Solomona. I mentioned him way back in this thread, and you got it spot on with your reply regarding defence.
I think anyone who'd watched him play for more than a few minutes could see the same weaknesses. They're not insurmountable but he needs to really commit to working with his defensive coaches if he wants to be a regular, otherwise I suspect he'll be the guy we call on if we need something special in the last 10-15minutes.
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What an amazing advert for rugby that test match was? Best of all the officials, Nigel Owens proving that it is possible to let a game flow without the need for TMOs and other such nonsense every time there's a try or decision to be made, same goes to his supporting officials, bloody superb they all were.
He showed why he's such a good ref by admitting to a mistake at one point. I'd love to see that in football rather than hiding behind the FA.
Yes, when that happened my mate and I looked across at each other and just nodded our approval. No words were needed.
That's why he's the best ref in world rugby.
Going back to Solomona. I mentioned him way back in this thread, and you got it spot on with your reply regarding defence.
I think anyone who'd watched him play for more than a few minutes could see the same weaknesses. They're not insurmountable but he needs to really commit to working with his defensive coaches if he wants to be a regular, otherwise I suspect he'll be the guy we call on if we need something special in the last 10-15minutes.
If he turns out half as good as the last League winger to cross code, Jason Robinson, we'll have a real player.
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If he turns out half as good as the last League winger to cross code, Jason Robinson, we'll have a real player.
He's already as good with ball in hand and as a finisher, if he can bring the rest of his game up he'll be special. He has the same low gait and subsequent low centre of gravity which means he can slip through gaps that aren't really there. His try was a great example of it, he had no rights to beat the first couple of tacklers but he just never gave them a target to tackle.
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Jason Robinson was very much an exception. Most converts from the Northern Game have been average at best, even those fast-tracked into the England set up
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Not complaining here but how the fuck Stander is there as an 8 and Hughes was left out i'll never know.
The Warburton try is a funny one, the British commentators were commending AWJ, I suspect the NZ view will be that it was quite obviously illegal and should have been disallowed.
I think JJ has played well but has bene the only back with anything going for him. Nowell looks like he's struggling to get into the game, just can't get any decent ball. Good try for Seymour but he'd not been in the game before that.
The biggest problem is that Webb is shit other than as a carrier and Laidlaw is shit other than as a kicker so we just aren't getting quick ball which means the backs can't hit the ball at pace and everything is really static. We've been caught behind the gainline far too often.
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Not complaining here but how the fuck Stander is there as an 8 and Hughes was left out i'll never know.
The Warburton try is a funny one, the British commentators were commending AWJ, I suspect the NZ view will be that it was quite obviously illegal and should have been disallowed.
I think JJ has played well but has bene the only back with anything going for him. Nowell looks like he's struggling to get into the game, just can't get any decent ball. Good try for Seymour but he'd not been in the game before that.
The biggest problem is that Webb is shit other than as a carrier and Laidlaw is shit other than as a kicker so we just aren't getting quick ball which means the backs can't hit the ball at pace and everything is really static. We've been caught behind the gainline far too often.
Been one of my bugbears watching Wales for some time Paul. He takes an age to get the ball out and often looks for his own opportunities first rather than getting quick ball. As for Joseph, I think Te'o probably has the 13 shirt at the moment (if Farrell and Sexton are going to play 10 + 12), but Joseph is definitely in the mix as he offers pace that the other options don't. That said, Gatland rates physicality and defence first and foremost, so Te'o and Jon Davies might be considered ahead of him.
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In one of the least shocking posts I'll ever write England U20s in to the final for the 5th year in a row. Only saw the 2nd half but the scrum and line out broke down completely but in open play they were brilliant, Mercer(9), Randall(SH) and Ibitoye(Wing) were absolutely superb and 3-4 others were very good (Earle at 7 in particular).
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If Farrell's injury is serious it could be a fatal blow for the tour.
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The All Blacks have just beaten Samoa 78-0 in their warm up game for The Lions next week.
I fear for The Lions.
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Hopefully ESPN or FoxSports will at least have highlights of the first two tests because I'm in Boston for those two Saturdays
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The All Blacks have just beaten Samoa 78-0 in their warm up game for The Lions next week.
I fear for The Lions.
I didn't need to see a score like that to be worried, if the lions don't utterly dominate the set piece I think the quality of NZ at the breakdown and in getting quick ball to their backs will be far too much.
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Gatland planning to bring five more players into the squad
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40301161
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I don't get too worried about the Lions, don't get me wrong I enjoy the tour, but I don't have the same strength of feeling that I do when England play.
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Gatland planning to bring five more players into the squad
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40301161
And it just so happens there are a shit load of Welsh men in that neck of the woods at the minute.
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I don't get too worried about the Lions, don't get me wrong I enjoy the tour, but I don't have the same strength of feeling that I do when England play.
I'm the opposite.
Im ambivalent about how England do at rugby but I want the Lions to win
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Interesting isn't it.
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I see Gatland has packed the squad with extra Welsh players.
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I see Gatland has packed the squad with extra Welsh players.
Using the excuse that they were nearby so could jump right in. I'd rather we worried about getting the right players than getting the ones who are nearest.
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What a win for Scotland! Fourth in the World.
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Big lead now, the yellow card (which was the right decision and was fucking stupid from their 9) has completely changed the game. They look lost without him.
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Much better from The Lions tonight. They were totally dominant and could have won by more. I think that is the biggest win The Lions have ever had against the Maori AB's.
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Yep, the weather played a big part because the lions were dominant at the set piece and the Maoris were struggling to take clean catches under the high ball. There's still plenty of things to sort out (the lack of support runners for T'eo was criminal) but they'll be feeling much better about themselves. It's interesting to note that we've only played well when Murray has been at 9, even today when he came off we fell apart. I'd say that right now he's the most critical player on the tour, not because he's great but because Laidlaw and Webb are so poor.
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Credit where it's due, that was a brilliant counter by Brown for the Francis try
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That was being aware of the runner has been a weakness of his, but that was excellent.
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Great game again but some shocking defending.
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Disguating from the ref letting the twat in the orange cap get away with that on Hughes, that's a clear yellow.
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Big series win.
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Don't usually care about Rugby Union, but Scotland beat Australia!!
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Don't usually care about Rugby Union, but Scotland beat Australia!!
That was a great win for Scotland, thoroughly deserved.
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Disguating from the ref letting the twat in the orange cap get away with that on Hughes, that's a clear yellow.
He got away with two or three no arm tackles!
Nice to see Johnny May didn't back down against him. It was a high tackle from JM, but, it wasn't that bad. I thought with orange caps reaction that Argentina were beginning to lose it.
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Blimey England got crushed by NZ in the U20s final.
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Disguating from the ref letting the twat in the orange cap get away with that on Hughes, that's a clear yellow.
It was a shocking assault with the sole aim of injuring Hughes. I think a red would have been justified and hope there will be some retrospective action taken against him.
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Excellent win for the dirt trackers this morning and the tour is really coming together nicely now. Really looking forward to Saturday, but just think New Zealand will have a bit too much.
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Disguating from the ref letting the twat in the orange cap get away with that on Hughes, that's a clear yellow.
It was a shocking assault with the sole aim of injuring Hughes. I think a red would have been justified and hope there will be some retrospective action taken against him.
It was a real shocker and he went in with no arms without penalty a couple of times after that as Nigel mentions.
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Only saw the last 10 minutes today. From what I saw you'd have been hard pressed to tell which was the touring squad that had been together for a few months and which was the club side on a mid-season break.
I suspect losing the number of players they have to the maoris and the main ABs squad played a big part, 12 players from any squad would be a big hit.
As I said I missed most of the important stuff so i can't really comment aside from that but I really was surprised by how disjointed they were.
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It's criminal the short amount of game time that Elliot Daly has been given this tour. He really should be in the test team ahead of George North but that won't happen now
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It's criminal the short amount of game time that Elliot Daly has been given this tour. He really should be in the test team ahead of George North but that won't happen now
I'd have him in for halfpenny and then him or Watson at 15 and keep North in the team. Halfpenny is only being picked for his goalkicking but his record is barely better than Sexton or Farrell before this year (he had a great 6N).
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It's criminal the short amount of game time that Elliot Daly has been given this tour. He really should be in the test team ahead of George North but that won't happen now
Starting today suggests he won't even be on the bench which I find odd as he can cover a number of positions. I think Joseph will be on the bench on Saturday.
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Daly should be in that Test team every day of the week.
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i think Daly will be on the bench. For me the question is itoje or Wyn Jones,. The latter I wouldn't even have on the bench as I think Lawes should also be ahead of him.
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i think Daly will be on the bench. For me the question is itoje or Wyn Jones,. The latter I wouldn't even have on the bench as I think Lawes should also be ahead of him.
These tests have got to be looked at in terms of 23 players not just the starting XV. I think Kruis is a nailed on starter, especially as he call the lineouts. I personally think AWJ will start, with Itoje seen as the better bet coming off the bench.
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
Different types really. AWJ is the more rugged, old fashioned second row whereas Itoje is a more modern, athletic type of forward. I think that dynamism might be viewed as better utilised coming off the bench in the latter stages, but we will see.
Farrell and Vunipola are indeed key players to any side, but Kruis is the key in the front five, especially as he calls the lineouts.
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
Different types really. AWJ is the more rugged, old fashioned second row whereas Itoje is a more modern, athletic type of forward. I think that dynamism might be viewed as better utilised coming off the bench in the latter stages, but we will see.
Farrell and Vunipola are indeed key players to any side, but Kruis is the key in the front five, especially as he calls the lineouts.
I think Itoje will start, his ability to get round the pitch as, effectively, an extra back row is important against a team with the pace of the ABs. I'd have Lawes as the bench option as well because he's also very good around the pitch and in a close game bringing someone on to smash the flyhalf can make a difference. AWJ shouldn't be there at all.
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
Different types really. AWJ is the more rugged, old fashioned second row whereas Itoje is a more modern, athletic type of forward. I think that dynamism might be viewed as better utilised coming off the bench in the latter stages, but we will see.
Farrell and Vunipola are indeed key players to any side, but Kruis is the key in the front five, especially as he calls the lineouts.
I think Itoje will start, his ability to get round the pitch as, effectively, an extra back row is important against a team with the pace of the ABs. I'd have Lawes as the bench option as well because he's also very good around the pitch and in a close game bringing someone on to smash the flyhalf can make a difference. AWJ shouldn't be there at all.
I can't see Gatland not starting AWJ and Warburton on Saturday Paul, with Itoje and O'Brien being on the bench. The other big choices are Sexton or Farrell at ten and Joseph or Daly on the bench.
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
Different types really. AWJ is the more rugged, old fashioned second row whereas Itoje is a more modern, athletic type of forward. I think that dynamism might be viewed as better utilised coming off the bench in the latter stages, but we will see.
Farrell and Vunipola are indeed key players to any side, but Kruis is the key in the front five, especially as he calls the lineouts.
I think Itoje will start, his ability to get round the pitch as, effectively, an extra back row is important against a team with the pace of the ABs. I'd have Lawes as the bench option as well because he's also very good around the pitch and in a close game bringing someone on to smash the flyhalf can make a difference. AWJ shouldn't be there at all.
Agreed. Launchbery is a much better player in much better form.
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
Different types really. AWJ is the more rugged, old fashioned second row whereas Itoje is a more modern, athletic type of forward. I think that dynamism might be viewed as better utilised coming off the bench in the latter stages, but we will see.
Farrell and Vunipola are indeed key players to any side, but Kruis is the key in the front five, especially as he calls the lineouts.
I think Itoje will start, his ability to get round the pitch as, effectively, an extra back row is important against a team with the pace of the ABs. I'd have Lawes as the bench option as well because he's also very good around the pitch and in a close game bringing someone on to smash the flyhalf can make a difference. AWJ shouldn't be there at all.
I can't see Gatland not starting AWJ and Warburton on Saturday Paul, with Itoje and O'Brien being on the bench. The other big choices are Sexton or Farrell at ten and Joseph or Daly on the bench.
If Warburton starts he's basically admitting that picking players he knows is the most important thing, O'Brien has arguably been the player of the tour so far.
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Itoje has to start. AWJ just isn't in the same class.
At the start of the tour, there were 3 players for me that had to be certain starters (barring injury) for the dynamism they bought to the team.
They were Farrell, Billy Vunipola and Itoje
Different types really. AWJ is the more rugged, old fashioned second row whereas Itoje is a more modern, athletic type of forward. I think that dynamism might be viewed as better utilised coming off the bench in the latter stages, but we will see.
Farrell and Vunipola are indeed key players to any side, but Kruis is the key in the front five, especially as he calls the lineouts.
I think Itoje will start, his ability to get round the pitch as, effectively, an extra back row is important against a team with the pace of the ABs. I'd have Lawes as the bench option as well because he's also very good around the pitch and in a close game bringing someone on to smash the flyhalf can make a difference. AWJ shouldn't be there at all.
I can't see Gatland not starting AWJ and Warburton on Saturday Paul, with Itoje and O'Brien being on the bench. The other big choices are Sexton or Farrell at ten and Joseph or Daly on the bench.
If Warburton starts he's basically admitting that picking players he knows is the most important thing, O'Brien has arguably been the player of the tour so far.
Seen it said elsewhere Paul that an O'Mahony and O'Brien combination lacks mobility and pace, which will be key against their back row on Saturday. As I've said before I think the days of the first XV are gone and it is now about starters and finishers, and piecing together which players are suited to each role.
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What are starting 15 predictions for the weekend then,
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Predictions rather than who I'd play...
Halfpenny
Watson
Davies
Te'o
North
Farrell (if fit)
Murphy
Vunipola
George
Irish fella whose name escapes me
Wyn Jones
Kruis
Warburton
O'Brien
Felatau
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Predictions rather than who I'd play...
Halfpenny
Watson
Davies
Te'o
North
Farrell (if fit)
Murphy
Vunipola
George
Irish fella whose name escapes me
Wyn Jones
Kruis
Warburton
O'Brien
Felatau
Furlong
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I think it will be the same team as Peter W predicted, but with Itoje for Wyn Jones.
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I should have put my own! I was looking for what will start rather than what we think should.
Cole
George
Furlong
Kruis
AWJ
Warburton
O Brien
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Farrell
Te'o
North
Watson
Halfpenny
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I should have put my own! I was looking for what will start rather than what we think should.
Cole
George
Furlong
Kruis
AWJ
Warburton
O Brien
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Farrell
Te'o
North
Watson
Halfpenny
Two tight heads there CL!!
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Backs: 15 Liam Williams (Wales); 14 Anthony Watson (England), 13 Jonathan Davies (Wales), 12 Ben Te'o (England), 11 Elliot Daly (England); 10 Owen Farrell (England), 9 Conor Murray (Ireland);
Forwards: 1 Mako Vunipola (England), 2 Jamie George (England), 3 Tadhg Furlong (Ireland); 4 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), 5 George Kruis (England); 6 Peter O'Mahony - captain (Ireland), 7 Sean O'Brien (Ireland), 8 Taulupe Faletau (Wales).
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Replacements: 16 Ken Owens (Wales), 17 Jack McGrath (Ireland), 18 Kyle Sinckler (England), 19 Maro Itoje (England), 20 Sam Warburton (Wales), 21 Rhys Webb (Wales), 22 Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), 23 Leigh Halfpenny (Wales).
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Some real suprises in that team.
Excellent decision to pick Daly ahead of North.
Not too sure about Williams at fullback and Wyn Jones ahead of Itoje is a joke. I get the point about Itoje's potential impact off the bench, but with carthorses like AWJ in the side the game could be out of reach by that point
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I should have put my own! I was looking for what will start rather than what we think should.
Cole
George
Furlong
Kruis
AWJ
Warburton
O Brien
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Farrell
Te'o
North
Watson
Halfpenny
I think if Sexton starts then Te'o doesn't as Farell will go to 12 and Davies will come in.
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Thoughts?
Apart from no Itoje, I like that team
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/4D92/production/_96585891_team.jpg)
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Alun Wyn Jones is the most Welsh sounding person I have heard of since the days of the goalkeeper Dai Davies.
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Thoughts?
Apart from no Itoje, I like that team
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/4D92/production/_96585891_team.jpg)
I'd have gone with Daly at 15 and North on the wing (because I think Williams has a few fundamental flaws) and Itoje ahead of AWJ but otherwise it's clearly the right team on form. I also think that JJ is unlucky that the coach sees no value in a centre who's less than 6'3 and 15 stone but that's so well established that I never expected anything else.
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Thoughts?
Apart from no Itoje, I like that team
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/800/cpsprodpb/4D92/production/_96585891_team.jpg)
Have to say that I'm very surprised about the selection of Liam Williams at full-back. There have been calls in Wales for some time now for Williams to play at full-back and Leigh Halfpenny on the wing, but Gatland and his coaching team have remained steadfast (earning the nickname 'cement head'). I'm amazed that he's chosen this game in particular to finally make that call. North is really out of form and I'm a big fan of Daly, so no complaints there and the rest looks about right.
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
As I said, a strong (and fairly young) backline developing there Paul. I think Farrell will be first choice ten from this point on, especially if both him an Te'o have a good series.
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
As I said, a strong (and fairly young) backline developing there Paul. I think Farrell will be first choice ten from this point on, especially if both him an Te'o have a good series.
I wouldn't rule out George Ford. He's been world class in the series against Argentina. I think England comfortably have the best two fly halfs in the Northern Hemisphere
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
As I said, a strong (and fairly young) backline developing there Paul. I think Farrell will be first choice ten from this point on, especially if both him an Te'o have a good series.
I wouldn't rule out George Ford. He's been world class in the series against Argentina. I think England comfortably have the best two fly halfs in the Northern Hemisphere
It's a hard one assessing fly halves in those terms, as a lot of it can depend on the pack of forwards they are playing behind and the scrum half they are playing with. I like George Ford and his distribution on the gainline, kicking and general game management is excellent. The only question that lingers over him though is his defence, especially as a first up defender at ten. A pundit on the BBC Wales rugby show did a piece on him during the 6N, highlighting how England try and hide him in defence and then the week after the England game showed how Wales were able to get over the gainline by targeting him.
Farrell's defence is very strong though and that might just get him the nod going forward.
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Its hard to say long term. For the autumn internationals and the 6 nations I can't see Eddie Jones moving away from Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12.
They have consistently played brilliantly in that combo
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Its hard to say long term. For the autumn internationals and the 6 nations I can't see Eddie Jones moving away from Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12.
They have consistently played brilliantly in that combo
Depends how Te'o goes in the series I would have thought. If he has a stormer, it would be hard to ignore him.
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I should have put my own! I was looking for what will start rather than what we think should.
Cole
George
Furlong
Kruis
AWJ
Warburton
O Brien
Faletau
Murray
Sexton
Farrell
Te'o
North
Watson
Halfpenny
Two tight heads there CL!!
Bollocks. I meant Vunipola. Anyhow, I was miles out!
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
Solomona cant defend. Don't rule out Johnny May.
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
Solomona cant defend. Don't rule out Johnny May.
I know, it was me who first said that!!
I'm not rulin gout May, I do rate him, but I think Jones likes the others a little more.
On top of that teaching a good attacking player how to defend is much easier than teaching a defender how to create.
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As has been said other than Itoje I don't mind that. I'd also prefer Daly at full back but hey ho.
As an aside Peter, do you see Daly as an option at full-back for England going forward? I have to say that a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Watson, Brown looks strong on paper.
Daly will repalce Brown at full back before the world cup, I'd put money on it. I suspect Watson on one wing is set in stone with Nowell/Solomona fighting for the other spot, along with a few of the kids (Earle and Cokanasiga both look exceptional talents).
Solomona cant defend. Don't rule out Johnny May.
Solomona will get better defensively as he learns the 15 a side game. There can be no argument attacking wise, though, he has the potential to be best of the lot.
I agree, Johnny May can't be ruled out. Things are looking very good in the 11, 14 & 15 department.
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Sky have got some of the behind the scenes footage of the recent Lion's tours on demand.
Being a bit of a saddo, I've watched a few of them. What is noticeable from them is how the 2005 tour to NZ stands out in lack of emotion/passion etc. Woodward really ran am awful tour.
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What a try for The Lions, back in the game just before half time.
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Excellent half of rugby. Lions started well and finished well. Defensively has been ok apart from switching off for the try.
We look like we are causing them problems, could have easily had another try.
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Not looking so good now though :(
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New Zealand have stepped it up 2nd half, different class.
We had guilt edge try chances at the start of both halves and didn't take them.
Going to be a highly embarrassing 3-0 series defeat
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Enjoyed the game, but it was a case in point of what NZ do. Such is the skill level throughout the side (Read's offload out off the floor was unreal)that they are able to punish even the smallest errors. Not all bad for the Lions and French refs in the next two tests might increase their chances a bit.
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Well, the Lions got beaten, but, could it have been a different story?
For me Warren Gatland made two crucial errors.
First, replacing Ben T'eo, with Johnny Sexton coming in at 10 and Owen Farrell moving to 12. T'eo was having an excellent game.
Second, and probably more damaging at the time, was replacing Jamie George with Ken Owen just before a crucial line out on the NZ line. Now Owen is a fine player, but, George hadn't missed a line out throw all game. What goes and happens? NZ win the line out!! Surely it would have been wise to keep George on for that line out and replace after!
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The Lions somehow have to find a way to slow NZ down at the breakdown. The ball was way too fast for their scrum half Smith all game. That is where the Lions need someone like Robshaw who does a lot of the dark things.
I can't see anything other than a bad 3-0 series now.
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The general skill of the All Blacks is just on a different level. That second try from the scrum was magnificent rugby. The speed of thought, then of the passing and running was superb.
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I think this Lions tour will have a pointer to England.
Jamie George will take the number 2 jersey, while 10, 12 & 13 will be Farrell, Te'o & Jonathan Joseph
The Argentina tour has certainly opened a few doors for others.
I'd feel for George Ford, given my 10, 12 & 13 above as he's has a great tour of Argentina.
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I think this Lions tour will have a pointer to England.
Jamie George will take the number 2 jersey, while 10, 12 & 13 will be Farrell, Te'o & Jonathan Joseph
The Argentina tour has certainly opened a few doors for others.
I'd feel for George Ford, given my 10, 12 & 13 above as he's has a great tour of Argentina.
I'm not so sure about George, Hartley had a superb tour and is hugely underrated by some. He's not such a good ball carrier but the tackles he gets through and his work at the breakdown is exceptional for a hooker. Add on the fact that he's been a superb leader and I think the calls for him to be cast out are still a bit premature.
The situation with Ford is different, I think making any long-term decisions about the 10,12 combo needs to wait until we get the 9 right. For me Care needs to be phased out over the next year, I just don't think he's a good enough passer, if you pay attention to our backs when Care plays they get flatter and only start moving once the ball is with the 10. If you compare it to how NZ played todat they were running as soon as the 9 got hands on the ball, meaning they were are full sprint when they took the pass and it means they break the line much more regularly. England have players who will destroy teams once we get them turnedso the focus needs to be on finding ways to do that after 2-3 phases rather than 10. That's our one 'gap' right now for me.
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The scrum half is an interesting one. Ben Youngs can go from looking absolutely world class in some games to completely ordinary in others.
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This mornings game showed how stupid Gatlands decision to call up the players he did was, if he had called up two / three who actually deserved to be there he could have made 5/6 substitutions and gave a few 20 mins break who might make Sat's 23.
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I thought both our locks were poor. Alun Wyn Jones looked past it against us in the 6 Nations and Kruis looked off the pace too. Itoje has to start in Wellington.
Counter attack was good, the try superb. We missed our opportunities and switched off twice. It was a closer game than the scoreline suggested.
You cannot give them 20 minutes like we did mind.
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I'd agree with that, Itoje and Lawes were the form players and should've been picked together. Gatland seems to have decided that the lineout only works with Kruis though so he's a shoe-in for every test despite, as you sort of say, looking like someone who had a nasty injury last year and needs time to recover.
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I'd agree with that, Itoje and Lawes were the form players and should've been picked together. Gatland seems to have decided that the lineout only works with Kruis though so he's a shoe-in for every test despite, as you sort of say, looking like someone who had a nasty injury last year and needs time to recover.
Which of Lawes or Itoje would call the line outs? Itoje does not do this at saracens (due to Kruis) or presumably England for the same reason. It seems trivial to me, but Jim Hamilton on the podcast I keep plugging claims that it is a vital part of the lineout and it's importance should not be underestimated. Does Lawes call at the Saints?
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I'd agree with that, Itoje and Lawes were the form players and should've been picked together. Gatland seems to have decided that the lineout only works with Kruis though so he's a shoe-in for every test despite, as you sort of say, looking like someone who had a nasty injury last year and needs time to recover.
Which of Lawes or Itoje would call the line outs? Itoje does not do this at saracens (due to Kruis) or presumably England for the same reason. It seems trivial to me, but Jim Hamilton on the podcast I keep plugging claims that it is a vital part of the lineout and it's importance should not be underestimated. Does Lawes call at the Saints?
Lawes has done it at saints for 2-3 seasons.
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It's ironic, in my opinion, that the Lions have an abundance of second rows yet alun wyn jones and kruis probably had their worst games in years on saturday. Compounded by Henderson's performance on Tuesday (and arguably Lawes' throughout the tour). I kinda expected the flankers to be found out a touch on the tour, but not the locks...
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Wyn Jones unbelievably keeps his place in the starting line up for the 2nd test. He looked completely shot after 30 minutes in the 1st test. Really should have gone with Itoje and Lawes at lock with Henderson on the bench. Teo also dropped so they can go with Sexton at 10 and Farrell at 12. Very very harsh on Teo who had a very strong 50 minutes.
15: Williams
14: Watson
13: Davies
12: Farrell
11: Daly
10: Sexton
9: Murray
8: Faletau
7: O'Brien
6: Warbuton
5: Itoje
4: Wyn Jones
3: Furlong
2: George
1: Vunipola
Replacements: Owens, McGrath, Sinckler, Lawes, Stander; Webb, Te’o, Nowell
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Some stupid decisions in there. I'd be interested to see how many people thought T'eo should be dropped.
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Or Sexton brought in. Or AWJ retained.
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Of course, I#m just picking the one that, for me, is the most ridiculous.
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T'eo being dropped is a mistake, he contained Sonny Bill. Also Gatland has completely abandoned his position on Farrell vs Sexton.
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T'eo being dropped is a mistake, he contained Sonny Bill. Also Gatland has completely abandoned his position on Farrell vs Sexton.
it's a bit like playing 4 strikers. Whilst the individuals might be great the sum of the parts is less than picking a wider variety of skills/strength. Sonny Bill could have a firld day through the middle.
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T'eo being dropped is a mistake, he contained Sonny Bill. Also Gatland has completely abandoned his position on Farrell vs Sexton.
it's a bit like playing 4 strikers. Whilst the individuals might be great the sum of the parts is less than picking a wider variety of skills/strength. Sonny Bill could have a firld day through the middle.
I suspect Farrell will get a yellow card at some point. When he goes up against someone like this who can dominate him his instinct is to try to put in a few 'reducers', he's got himself in trouble for it a few times.
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Sonny Bill red carded in the first half, might make it a more even game for the Lions now.
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Sonny Bill red carded in the first half, might make it a more even game for the Lions now.
Was a clear red but the lions tried their hardest to fuck it up still. Tactics and discipline were poor in the 2nd half which kept the all blacks in the game.
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I can't take that much excitement this early!
It was like watching Johnson's England with the I'll discipline but what a last 20! Absolutely fabtastic!
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Incredible game and well done for coming back to win after an atrocious 20 minutes in the 2nd half from the Lions.
I don't know what the coaches said to them at half time, but the discipline was horrific. Especially Vunipola who has surely played his last minute on this tour.
I also think that Gatland left it too long to get Lawes on who made a big impact.
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Brilliant win and nerve wracking. Thought The Lions had blown it halfway through the second half.
Not very often the All Blacks don't score any tries, so well done The Lions defence. I can't recall the AB's ever looking like scoring a try.
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Great result that, well done.
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Just watched the highlights it's a definite red. On a selfish England, it's big for the likes of Farrell, Daly, Maro etc to know they can beat the All Blacks.
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Sonny Bill red carded in the first half, might make it a more even game for the Lions now.
Was a clear red but the lions tried their hardest to fuck it up still. Tactics and discipline were poor in the 2nd half which kept the all blacks in the game.
Pleased the ref didn't bottle it and only give a yellow!
Maco was a liability today, although I will add I thought a couple against him seemed pretty hash.
The Lions were crying out for Courtney Lawes. I thought once he came on things seemed to turn back the Lions way.
Itoje was, once again, exceptional.
Sinkler also did really well when he came on.
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Sinkler also did really well when he came on.
One of life's small pleasures is that moment when a front row player makes a break and there's nothing but grass ahead. The realisation, confusion and then panic is always a joy to witness. Sinkler does not fall into the category, he seems to know what he's doing.
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The Lions weirdly seemed to be better when playing with equal numbers today. They started really well with a good intensity for the first 20 minutes. They scored the 1st try with Vunipola in the sin bin with some lovely rugby.
I don't know if it took the Lions 40 minutes or so to realise the advantage the red card gave them, as the first 20 minutes in the 2nd half were awful from a discipline point of view.
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I'd guess that before the game the team's instructions were to slow down the AB (to avoid last week's debacle) and it took ages, maybe the last 10 minutes, for them to realise that the dynamic of the game had changed with the ABs down to 14 men. The game management by the Lions was poor I thought, whereas the ABs quickly adapted, slowing the game at every opportunity.
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Looking back at the highlights, with the penalty given for the tackle on Sinkler in the air, I don't think its possible to overstate the importance of what Conor Murray does.
Sinkler was absolutely seething at the tackle and would most probably have got the penalty reversed if it wasn't for Murray grabbing him and calming him down.
Sinkler is a great prospect moving forward for England, but he needs to remove that anger to incidents from his game. It will be detrimental to his team if he continues that way.
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Looking back at the highlights, with the penalty given for the tackle on Sinkler in the air, I don't think its possible to overstate the importance of what Conor Murray does.
Sinkler was absolutely seething at the tackle and would most probably have got the penalty reversed if it wasn't for Murray grabbing him and calming him down.
Sinkler is a great prospect moving forward for England, but he needs to remove that anger to incidents from his game. It will be detrimental to his team if he continues that way.
That's why I'm not sure if he's quite ready for internationals.
I like Conor Murray, he's the only 9 they've taken on the tour that is international class for me.
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For the 3rd test I think it might have to be Itoje and Lawes for 2nd row.
Maco has probably put himself out of the running so McGrath will be in.
9, 10, 12 has to back to Murray, Farrell & Te'o
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Is it an automatic suspension for SBW?
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I'd have thought so, as the commentators were going on about the lad that came on, Lanuape (?), starting.
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Is it an automatic suspension for SBW?
Yeah, will be a couple of weeks for that, effectively taking him out of the last test and 1-2 club games.
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Here's a question for you Paul, this chap was saying that the final penalty, tackle in the air on Sinkler, was not a penalty as you can't jump into a pass!
Is this right?
I think he's getting mixed up with jumping the tackle.
Been a long time since I looked at the rule changes, but, it certainly wasn't there when I played.
Just to add this guys a New Zealander 😊
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SBW has got a four week ban, so not playing in the final test. Laumape will start the next test and I think he will be more than a decent replacement.
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Here's a question for you Paul, this chap was saying that the final penalty, tackle in the air on Sinkler, was not a penalty as you can't jump into a pass!
Is this right?
I think he's getting mixed up with jumping the tackle.
Been a long time since I looked at the rule changes, but, it certainly wasn't there when I played.
Just to add this guys a New Zealander 😊
It's actually a pretty contentious one ad it's worth pointing out that I didn't actually see the award the incident that led to it so I haven't seen the specifics of it.
So, if you have to jump to claim the pass then of course you're allowed to so the final point is wrong but I get where he's coming.
After that it gets messier, if you're committed to the tackle and then the player jumps to collect the pass when you would'n't have expected it are you responsible for tackling in the air? There was loads of arguments about this at club level a few years back because some people saw it as a way to buy a cheap penalty if you jump and then the tackler makes contact. Whilst there is a point there the key thing about all of the dangerous play related rules in rugby is that they're all about outcomes if you do something which puts another player at risk of injury then you are responsible for anything that happens to him.
On that basis if you take someone in the air but they land safely a penalty is normally the expected result, if they land on their back it's normally a yellow card or on their neck or head it's a red. So It's a harsh one but by the book it's ok.
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Here's a question for you Paul, this chap was saying that the final penalty, tackle in the air on Sinkler, was not a penalty as you can't jump into a pass!
Is this right?
I think he's getting mixed up with jumping the tackle.
Been a long time since I looked at the rule changes, but, it certainly wasn't there when I played.
Just to add this guys a New Zealander 😊
It's actually a pretty contentious one ad it's worth pointing out that I didn't actually see the award the incident that led to it so I haven't seen the specifics of it.
So, if you have to jump to claim the pass then of course you're allowed to so the final point is wrong but I get where he's coming.
After that it gets messier, if you're committed to the tackle and then the player jumps to collect the pass when you would'n't have expected it are you responsible for tackling in the air? There was loads of arguments about this at club level a few years back because some people saw it as a way to buy a cheap penalty if you jump and then the tackler makes contact. Whilst there is a point there the key thing about all of the dangerous play related rules in rugby is that they're all about outcomes if you do something which puts another player at risk of injury then you are responsible for anything that happens to him.
On that basis if you take someone in the air but they land safely a penalty is normally the expected result, if they land on their back it's normally a yellow card or on their neck or head it's a red. So It's a harsh one but by the book it's ok.
Cheers, Paul.
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SBW has got a four week ban, so not playing in the final test. Laumape will start the next test and I think he will be more than a decent replacement.
I've watched it back a few times and I think that's a little harsh. I think they've taken him looking at Watson as a sign that he saw an opportunity to put in a hit which is a misreading of it for me. I suspect his intent was to add weight to the tackle with a big hit but bounce off so he could get straight over the ball as they hit the ground, it's something you see from NZ a lot. They normally make a better show of wrapping the arms and time it better so they're not following the man down with the shoulder and it's those 2 things that made it look so nasty.
That said I'm glad they backed the ref and gave a proper ban because it knocks the 'untouchable' attitude that the ABs so often have when it comes to toying with the laws.
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Here's a question for you Paul, this chap was saying that the final penalty, tackle in the air on Sinkler, was not a penalty as you can't jump into a pass!
Is this right?
I think he's getting mixed up with jumping the tackle.
Been a long time since I looked at the rule changes, but, it certainly wasn't there when I played.
Just to add this guys a New Zealander 😊
It's actually a pretty contentious one ad it's worth pointing out that I didn't actually see the award the incident that led to it so I haven't seen the specifics of it.
So, if you have to jump to claim the pass then of course you're allowed to so the final point is wrong but I get where he's coming.
After that it gets messier, if you're committed to the tackle and then the player jumps to collect the pass when you would'n't have expected it are you responsible for tackling in the air? There was loads of arguments about this at club level a few years back because some people saw it as a way to buy a cheap penalty if you jump and then the tackler makes contact. Whilst there is a point there the key thing about all of the dangerous play related rules in rugby is that they're all about outcomes if you do something which puts another player at risk of injury then you are responsible for anything that happens to him.
On that basis if you take someone in the air but they land safely a penalty is normally the expected result, if they land on their back it's normally a yellow card or on their neck or head it's a red. So It's a harsh one but by the book it's ok.
It was a nailed on penalty Paul. Sinckler jumped to catch the pass and the AB player hit him in the air. It was questionable if any arms were used as well.
The build up this week is going to be great and it is now just a one off game. I think the Lions ard going to have to produce something special to win it, but you never know.
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SBW has got a four week ban, so not playing in the final test. Laumape will start the next test and I think he will be more than a decent replacement.
I've watched it back a few times and I think that's a little harsh. I think they've taken him looking at Watson as a sign that he saw an opportunity to put in a hit which is a misreading of it for me. I suspect his intent was to add weight to the tackle with a big hit but bounce off so he could get straight over the ball as they hit the ground, it's something you see from NZ a lot. They normally make a better show of wrapping the arms and time it better so they're not following the man down with the shoulder and it's those 2 things that made it look so nasty.
That said I'm glad they backed the ref and gave a proper ban because it knocks the 'untouchable' attitude that the ABs so often have when it comes to toying with the laws.
Yeah I do have some sympathy for SBW and slow motion replays always make it look worse. To the letter of the law it was a red, but I think not every ref would have given that as a red. There was a similar one, if not worse, in Maori game and that only got yellow.
The Aussie TMO trying to steer Garces away from red was very questionable as well.
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SBW has got a four week ban, so not playing in the final test. Laumape will start the next test and I think he will be more than a decent replacement.
I've watched it back a few times and I think that's a little harsh. I think they've taken him looking at Watson as a sign that he saw an opportunity to put in a hit which is a misreading of it for me. I suspect his intent was to add weight to the tackle with a big hit but bounce off so he could get straight over the ball as they hit the ground, it's something you see from NZ a lot. They normally make a better show of wrapping the arms and time it better so they're not following the man down with the shoulder and it's those 2 things that made it look so nasty.
That said I'm glad they backed the ref and gave a proper ban because it knocks the 'untouchable' attitude that the ABs so often have when it comes to toying with the laws.
Yeah I do have some sympathy for SBW and slow motion replays always make it look worse. To the letter of the law it was a red, but I think not every ref would have given that as a red. There was a similar one, if not worse, in Maori game and that only got yellow.
The Aussie TMO trying to steer Garces away from red was very questionable as well.
It had to be a red, there's no question there and the base for that sort of offence is 2 weeks, the choice to classify it as mid-range and up to up weeks is the bit that I'm not sure about
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Here's a question for you Paul, this chap was saying that the final penalty, tackle in the air on Sinkler, was not a penalty as you can't jump into a pass!
Is this right?
I think he's getting mixed up with jumping the tackle.
Been a long time since I looked at the rule changes, but, it certainly wasn't there when I played.
Just to add this guys a New Zealander 😊
It's actually a pretty contentious one ad it's worth pointing out that I didn't actually see the award the incident that led to it so I haven't seen the specifics of it.
So, if you have to jump to claim the pass then of course you're allowed to so the final point is wrong but I get where he's coming.
After that it gets messier, if you're committed to the tackle and then the player jumps to collect the pass when you would'n't have expected it are you responsible for tackling in the air? There was loads of arguments about this at club level a few years back because some people saw it as a way to buy a cheap penalty if you jump and then the tackler makes contact. Whilst there is a point there the key thing about all of the dangerous play related rules in rugby is that they're all about outcomes if you do something which puts another player at risk of injury then you are responsible for anything that happens to him.
On that basis if you take someone in the air but they land safely a penalty is normally the expected result, if they land on their back it's normally a yellow card or on their neck or head it's a red. So It's a harsh one but by the book it's ok.
It was a nailed on penalty Paul. Sinckler jumped to catch the pass and the AB player hit him in the air. It was questionable if any arms were used as well.
The build up this week is going to be great and it is now just a one off game. I think the Lions ard going to have to produce something special to win it, but you never know.
I've seen it now, it's a definite penalty but just the description of it made it fairly nailed on. No matter how much sympathy you can have for it being an accident the responsibility is always with the tackler in those situations, the ref really had no choice on that, as soon as you make contact with someone who's in the air whilst you're on the floor you're in trouble unless there's a clear sign that you're trying to let them land.
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SBW has got a four week ban, so not playing in the final test. Laumape will start the next test and I think he will be more than a decent replacement.
I've watched it back a few times and I think that's a little harsh. I think they've taken him looking at Watson as a sign that he saw an opportunity to put in a hit which is a misreading of it for me. I suspect his intent was to add weight to the tackle with a big hit but bounce off so he could get straight over the ball as they hit the ground, it's something you see from NZ a lot. They normally make a better show of wrapping the arms and time it better so they're not following the man down with the shoulder and it's those 2 things that made it look so nasty.
That said I'm glad they backed the ref and gave a proper ban because it knocks the 'untouchable' attitude that the ABs so often have when it comes to toying with the laws.
Yeah I do have some sympathy for SBW and slow motion replays always make it look worse. To the letter of the law it was a red, but I think not every ref would have given that as a red. There was a similar one, if not worse, in Maori game and that only got yellow.
The Aussie TMO trying to steer Garces away from red was very questionable as well.
It had to be a red, there's no question there and the base for that sort of offence is 2 weeks, the choice to classify it as mid-range and up to up weeks is the bit that I'm not sure about
As I said, by the letter of the law it is a red card, but again don't think every ref would have given it one. This is the one from the Maori game that only got yellow (thing to remember, which the ref obviously didn't, is that IRB stated before this season that it didn't matter if a player was falling):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBliowXjzHg
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Unchanged team for the final test.
Really surprised that Mako keeps his place despite having been a massive liability in the second test. Lawes should really have come in for Wyn Jones also
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Unchanged team for the final test.
Really surprised that Mako keeps his place despite having been a massive liability in the second test. Lawes should really have come in for Wyn Jones also
AWJ selection is baffling, it's like it's the AWJ testimonial series FFS.
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I hadn't expected any changes, he'll see that they won and the bench all made an impact and think that was enough. I've given up being offended by the inclusion of AWJ, the guy is nowhere near good enough to be keeping Launchbury out of the squad let alone being the first choice lock but Gatland has decided he can't pick the team without him.
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Been up since 6 my time (4am UK) just waiting for the game. You can't see past the All Blacks but you just never know.I think it'll be a big win for them - 30 or 40 points. I'd like Teo in but we go with what we've got. I hope we start the game and get into them early, force the kick and then return by targeting Barrett (is that his name? the full back?). Anyway, the start is crucial and we can't let them take the initiative. Shame that I can't watch it here so will be looking for streams.
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Oh dear. From a great position for the Lions to conceding the first try. This isn't going to end well.
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Fair play though, back to a point in it.
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Big mouth.
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Great first half of rugby. Jordie Barrett looks one hell of a player.
Maro was superb in the opening 20
Why didn't Reid have to go off for a HIA?
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Somehow only 12-6 and could have been better if not for the intercept pass. New Zealand dominant and have butchered opportunites.
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Far too many errors from the Lions and lucky to be only six points behind. Goal kicking aside, Farrell having a nightmare.
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ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.
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Probably not for the purists, i am no egg chaser, but what a game.
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This is getting to be too intense...what a game. C'mon Lions...don't throw this away.
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What a game to watch. I'm not even a big rugby fan. Come on the Lions.
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The Lions got out of jail there at the end.
Great result though.
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What a game to watch. I'm not even a big rugby fan. Come on the Lions.
Same here, but what a game. Going to watch a few Northampton games with my brother in law next season.
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Great defensive performance from the lions to be fair.
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The Lions got out of jail there at the end.
Great result though.
Brilliant game
I think that the refs got it wrong to change the Owens pen to a scrum. He went for the ball and then thought 'oh feck, best let it go'
All credit to Sinckler in those last few scrums
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The Lions got out of jail there at the end.
Great result though.
Brilliant game
I think that the refs got it wrong to change the Owens pen to a scrum. He went for the ball and then thought 'oh feck, best let it go'
All credit to Sinckler in those last few scrums
Thought they got it right.
Slow motion replay looked as if he held onto the ball, but, he was running back and the ball clung to him. I can see why he initially gave a penalty, but was brave enough to go to TMO.
I thought the ref had a decent game. He got a couple wrong, only my opinion, but they weren't game changing
I think the reffing throughout the series has, overall, been very good.
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ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.
I put this down to the pressure the Lions have put them under.
Stuart Barnes was really p*ssing me off. How great the All Blacks are and how lucky the Lions are.
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ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.
I put this down to the pressure the Lions have put them under.
Stuart Barnes was really p*ssing me off. How great the All Blacks are and how lucky the Lions are.
I think it was part that and part frustration that they hadn't pulled away in the first half, looked to me like they were letting that frustration spill over and trying to force things. The lions were largely what we expected if everything went to plan, dangerous out wide but struggling to get good ball to the wingers to make the most of it, solid up front and in the set pieces and kicked points when they were available.
A drawn series is a good result, that's undeniable but I can't help but think that a coach willing to risk things a little more could've won that. I thought the ABs were pretty average, they've got 3-4 very good players but, with my England hat on, I wouldn't look at them as being out of our league, they're certainly not some irresistible force as some commentators like to suggest.
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ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.
I put this down to the pressure the Lions have put them under.
Stuart Barnes was really p*ssing me off. How great the All Blacks are and how lucky the Lions are.
I think it was part that and part frustration that they hadn't pulled away in the first half, looked to me like they were letting that frustration spill over and trying to force things. The lions were largely what we expected if everything went to plan, dangerous out wide but struggling to get good ball to the wingers to make the most of it, solid up front and in the set pieces and kicked points when they were available.
A drawn series is a good result, that's undeniable but I can't help but think that a coach willing to risk things a little more could've won that. I thought the ABs were pretty average, they've got 3-4 very good players but, with my England hat on, I wouldn't look at them as being out of our league, they're certainly not some irresistible force as some commentators like to suggest.
Agree. From an England point of view it shows the gap has coed considerably. I really believe now that England, and Ireland, can go to the World Cup with genuine hope.
Man of the series has to be Itoji.
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Shouldn't the ref have played some sort of advantage regardless of whether a penalty (or not). The NZ fella had snaffled the ball anyway and was heading for the posts.
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ABs have been really poor in the first 10-12 of the 2nd half.
I put this down to the pressure the Lions have put them under.
Stuart Barnes was really p*ssing me off. How great the All Blacks are and how lucky the Lions are.
I think it was part that and part frustration that they hadn't pulled away in the first half, looked to me like they were letting that frustration spill over and trying to force things. The lions were largely what we expected if everything went to plan, dangerous out wide but struggling to get good ball to the wingers to make the most of it, solid up front and in the set pieces and kicked points when they were available.
A drawn series is a good result, that's undeniable but I can't help but think that a coach willing to risk things a little more could've won that. I thought the ABs were pretty average, they've got 3-4 very good players but, with my England hat on, I wouldn't look at them as being out of our league, they're certainly not some irresistible force as some commentators like to suggest.
Man of the series has to be Itoji.
I think that in a couple of years, Itoje will be on his way to becoming the most complete rugby player in the world
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Just watched the game again and I think that we shouldn't let the penalty or not define the match. It is amplified as a decision because it was in the last two minutes rather than the first two. Was it the right call? I don't know. This is the part of rugby - these types of laws - that I have no idea about so cannot comment. But the ref called it and so there must be some scope for it to be a correct call, again whether it was I really don't know and it may have been a bad decision.
But, we shouldn't forget that over the whole 80 minutes I thought the Lions were on the wrong end of 4 poor decisions that may have affected the scoreline also. Warburton being penalised in teh second minute when it appeared that he turned the ball over cleanly. On 8 minutes the All blacks knocked on and Farrell picked up the ball and was pinged for a knock-on when he wa stackled trying to clear. Attacking scrum for NZ in our 22 when it should have been a scrum the other way. Early in the second half Watson got done for a forward pass to Williams when it came out the back of his hand setting Williams free deep into the 22, and although tackled it was an attacking breakdown from which the Lions may have scored. Finally, on about 60 minutes a counter-attack by the Lions saw a deliberate knock on to stop Davies and Daly getting free. Instead of getting the clear penalty - and possible yellow (harsh as that would have been), the ref brought the game back for an earlier NZ knock-on.
So, yes, if NZ want to point to a penalty at the death we can point to 4 separate instances where we were wrongly adjudged to have been at fault.
As for player of the season - big shout outs to Faletau, George, Itoje, Murray but despite not wanting to play him for me the player that stood out was Johnathon Davies. Great in both attack and defence.
There's something about the Lions which is better than watching England. In the 80s and 90s it was a devalued brand but not anymore. Warburton said that the only shirt that he has hanging up in his house is his Lions shirt and that speaks volumes. The team and tours should be protected. NZ thought they could just walk over the team and were sorely wrong. The Aussies were beaten last time out and South Africa need 4 years to try and get better to even compete with us. brilliant test performances after the first test and proof if needed that Northern Hemisphere, and British (and irish) rugby is in great shape.
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Good post, peter w.
Mentioned in an earlier post that I thought the ref got a couple wrong, but, overall I thought he had a good game. I felt the reffing was very good throughout the series.
Johnathan Davies was exceptional in the 3 games, and you're right on him being 'Player of the Series'
I was, maybe, being a touch blinkered for Maro Itoje, but, what a two and a bit games he had!
There were a lot of heroes out there with all players bringing nothing back to the dressing room.
Finally, well done to AWJ on equalling the consecutive starts for the Lions, 9.
I, personally, didn't think he should have been starting these games, but, maybe Gatland wanted a calming influence for the first 50 mins or so.
Over the three games I reckon WG got it about right.
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Just watched the game again and I think that we shouldn't let the penalty or not define the match. It is amplified as a decision because it was in the last two minutes rather than the first two. Was it the right call? I don't know. This is the part of rugby - these types of laws - that I have no idea about so cannot comment. But the ref called it and so there must be some scope for it to be a correct call, again whether it was I really don't know and it may have been a bad decision.
But, we shouldn't forget that over the whole 80 minutes I thought the Lions were on the wrong end of 4 poor decisions that may have affected the scoreline also. Warburton being penalised in teh second minute when it appeared that he turned the ball over cleanly. On 8 minutes the All blacks knocked on and Farrell picked up the ball and was pinged for a knock-on when he wa stackled trying to clear. Attacking scrum for NZ in our 22 when it should have been a scrum the other way. Early in the second half Watson got done for a forward pass to Williams when it came out the back of his hand setting Williams free deep into the 22, and although tackled it was an attacking breakdown from which the Lions may have scored. Finally, on about 60 minutes a counter-attack by the Lions saw a deliberate knock on to stop Davies and Daly getting free. Instead of getting the clear penalty - and possible yellow (harsh as that would have been), the ref brought the game back for an earlier NZ knock-on.
So, yes, if NZ want to point to a penalty at the death we can point to 4 separate instances where we were wrongly adjudged to have been at fault.
As for player of the season - big shout outs to Faletau, George, Itoje, Murray but despite not wanting to play him for me the player that stood out was Johnathon Davies. Great in both attack and defence.
There's something about the Lions which is better than watching England. In the 80s and 90s it was a devalued brand but not anymore. Warburton said that the only shirt that he has hanging up in his house is his Lions shirt and that speaks volumes. The team and tours should be protected. NZ thought they could just walk over the team and were sorely wrong. The Aussies were beaten last time out and South Africa need 4 years to try and get better to even compete with us. brilliant test performances after the first test and proof if needed that Northern Hemisphere, and British (and irish) rugby is in great shape.
Bold one - sorry but that one was a forward pass and it was the fault of Williams not Watson he got far too flat and gave Watson no option but to throw out a speculative one. a couple of steps deeper and that whole play goes totally different.
The 2 before that I think were ok, certainly not to the point where they riled me, they're the sort of 50/50s that you have to just accept.
The last one however was a terrible decision and that one alone offsets the whole penalty or not argument, it really was blatant.
Player of the series, I think Nigel got it right the first time, without him (in the first test) they overran us at the breakdown and were getting good, quick ball consistently. Itoje and Warburton came on and stopped that. For the next 2 Itoje gave us a drive that hadn't been there. Specifically on Davies for me he's a lot like Manu in that he looks like he's doing everything and you should build a team around him but his very presence makes you predictable, for me that makes it difficult to offer too much praise, he did play well though.
Onto Gatland, with 2 10s, a 13 with a big boot and a winger with one of the biggest boots going he fairly clearly wanted to set us up to play territory and solid defence. On that basis we did exactly what was planned and he drew the series so it's been pretty effective but I don't think it will have done much to sway SH opinions that European rugby isn't as good as theirs.
I'm not a massive fan of the lions anyway because I think the way the coach and team are selected are wrong and, on a petty level, I just don't like how welsh it's been for the last couple of years. To offer a massive stereotype Welsh rugby fans, in my experience, have the same cockiness as NZ fans but without the massive haul of trophies or stream of world class players. I went on a tour in wales in 2004 and there were a group of them arguing that Johnny Wilkinson was shit and wouldn't get into the welsh team, we thought they were taking the piss until the couple of English guys they had told us this had been an on-going argument for 2-3 years.
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It was out of the back of the hand and unless he can defy the laws of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant as it would have to have gone backwards out of the hand given the position of his body and his momentum when running.
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It was out of the back of the hand and unless he can defy the laws of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant as it would have to have gone backwards out of the hand given the position of his body and his momentum when running.
I honestly don't know what you're trying to say there, it's like the ramblings of a madman.
Let me make it simple. If you ignore Williams for a moment Watson dipped his should and popped a pass out the back of the hand that was pretty flat, judging it forward or legal would be pretty tough. Part of the problem is that refs usually use body shape as an indicator but that can't apply to a back of the hand pass because it's an unnatural movement. Now if Williams is sprinting from deep and takes the ball in 'the box' I think the ref gives you the benefit of the doubt. That's where the decision is made easy in this case. When you add a flat and pretty much static Williams to the picture and have him stretching for the pass it just looks wrong. This is why I'm saying I blame Williams for it, his actions and position made it very easy for the ref.
With all things like this I always try to ask myself if I'd be annoyed if it wasn't given the other way and for me I'd have been screaming for a forward pass there if it had been NZ so I think the ref got it right.
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As ever paul e resorts to snide digs and patronising tones.
okay, i won't bother reading all of your post and just admit you are right. I know you're never wrong anyway so shouldn't have bothered.
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As ever paul e resorts to snide digs and patronising tones.
okay, i won't bother reading all of your post and just admit you are right. I know you're never wrong anyway so shouldn't have bothered.
You used the line "unless he can defy the law of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant", I'm not being snide or patronising, I honestly have no fucking idea what you were trying to say so I tried to break it down. I did that because I've done the qualifications and with things like this they tell you how to break it down and list the things to look for. The important one in forward passing it the positioning of the catcher and how they take the ball. For the Watson one in both regards it will have flagged as forward.
Its not about never being wrong it's about knowing what I'm talking about. In other discussions you'd have a point but in this case you just seem upset that i disagreed and did it with evidence.
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World cup group is now finalised as England, France, Argentina, Tonga, USA - pretty much as expected when it was announced.
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World cup group is now finalised as England, France, Argentina, Tonga, USA - pretty much as expected when it was announced.
We'll win that group, although there won't be any easy games.
I'd love Tonga to get 2nd, but, in reality I do think they will play a part in who comes 2nd out of France and Argentina.
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Its a group the Southern hemisphere teams will like too. Its likely we'll go through and none of the big 3 would like Argentina to have a crack at them, and the certainly wouldn't fancy the French.
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Its a group the Southern hemisphere teams will like too. Its likely we'll go through and none of the big 3 would like Argentina to have a crack at them, and the certainly wouldn't fancy the French.
Think England's group pick up the group with Wales and Australia in it at the QF stage,
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As ever paul e resorts to snide digs and patronising tones.
okay, i won't bother reading all of your post and just admit you are right. I know you're never wrong anyway so shouldn't have bothered.
You used the line "unless he can defy the law of physics whether it actually went forward is irrelevant", I'm not being snide or patronising, I honestly have no fucking idea what you were trying to say so I tried to break it down. I did that because I've done the qualifications and with things like this they tell you how to break it down and list the things to look for. The important one in forward passing it the positioning of the catcher and how they take the ball. For the Watson one in both regards it will have flagged as forward.
Its not about never being wrong it's about knowing what I'm talking about. In other discussions you'd have a point but in this case you just seem upset that i disagreed and did it with evidence.
Intersting Paul because when you hear the pundits on the TV, they talk about the position of the passing player's hands when they release the ball. It is a very complicated issue and I still think the Watson call was very tight. If you watch any Southern Hemisphere team play, they constantly pass forward and get away with it.
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This is a good take on it.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/05/the-breakdown-rugby-union-forward-pass
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I agree it was a very tight call, my point is that (at least when I did it in about 2001) it should be judged on a balance of probabilities. If someone is running straight and their arms travel across their body correctly then the ball will have left the hand backwards, if their hands come out in front then it's probably forward from the hand. They're the simple ones that the commentators talk about, (and that Peter's article covers) but they get more complicated.
Think of a little popped pass out of the tackle for someone to run round the corner on to, there is virtually no hand movement in that so you don't have that cue (they're the ones that the SH sides get away with more than any other) and they can be really tough to call. When the ball is out of the back of the hand the the players body shape before throwing the pass makes it difficult to tell you move on to the reaction and position of the receiver and this is where, as I said, Williams made it very easy for the ref.
If Williams was 2 metres deeper and at full pace he takes the ball clean in the box and it probably doesn't get flagged but he'd over run it so he slowed and started again and because of that he had to reach for the pass. By slowing he showed that he knew he wasn't in position to take a pass and then on top of that when the pass did come it was too far in front of him which again suggests it's forward.
As I say, it's one that I can totally understand why it was given as it was.
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Looks like Manu Tuilagi and Denny Solomana have f**ked up their chances for Autumn Internationals.
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Cultural issues i.e. Tuilagi is a known beer monster and Solomana has been led astray by the sound of it.
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England's women through to the World Cup Final. France ran them closer than I expected. It took a great try-saving tackle by Meg Jones to stifle a French comeback.
The late try made the scoreline more flattering than England deserved.
In the earlier semi, the USA stayed with NZ for around an hour but then got blown away
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England's women through to the World Cup Final. France ran then closer than I expected. I took a great try-saving tackle by Meg Jones to stiffle a French comeback.
The late try made the scoreline more flattering than England deserved.
In the earlier semi, the USA stayed with NZ for around an hour but then got blown away
I reckon it will be one hell of a final. England's great defence against NZ's brilliant attack. Big news here in NZ and they are very determined to win.
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The All Blacks are giving SA an absolute hammering. Currently 50-0. Some of the tries have been breathtaking.
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......and there's another try to finish things off
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57-0...... that was a stuffing
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Not taking anything from NZ, but South Africa are no longer the force they were.
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Not taking anything from NZ, but South Africa are no longer the force they were.
They have a lot of problems, the biggest being that a lot of their best players are moving to Europe very early and then being overlooked in selection or used sparingly.
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Not taking anything from NZ, but South Africa are no longer the force they were.
They have a lot of problems, the biggest being that a lot of their best players are moving to Europe very early and then being overlooked in selection or used sparingly.
Agree, mate.
Rugby needs a strong South Africa, and Australia.
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https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/20/lions-all-blacks-2017-tour-warren-gatland-sean-obrien-should-have-won
I'm not Gatlands biggest fan, and Sean O'Brien was there and I wasn't, but I do find these comments peculiar and disrespectful.
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Blimey Sinckler and JJ left out of England training squad.
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Blimey Sinckler and JJ left out of England training squad.
and 5/6 (depending on where you stand on Slade) fly halves in the squad, which seems excessive.
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Blimey Sinckler and JJ left out of England training squad.
And Kruis, mind you Haskell & Kruis are only just back from injury, JJ is a strange one though.
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Yep I assume Kruis and Haskell are due to their injuries.
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Blimey Sinckler and JJ left out of England training squad.
And Kruis, mind you Haskell & Kruis are only just back from injury, JJ is a strange one though.
Francis and Hartley have been injured as well though and they're both included. I think us being spoiled with 10s and wingers is making him try other things. I suspect Francis is there as a 12 and Slade is in as a 13 and that he also sees Daly as playing anywhere 11-15. Of the inclusions I think Smith is there too soon and that we should be phasing out Care and Brown by now.
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Interesting.
Some good young 'uns
Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
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SA v NZ has been a hard game so far. Final phase of play in the first half lead to 10 mins after the hooter
Currently 10-8 to SA
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NZ just about scraped a win but it was hard going
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Great game wasn’t it? SA certainly deserved something from the game.
There was so much foul play at the breakdown in the first half though by NZ, little tugs on SA players as they tried to get onside or get round the right side of play and NZ players joining a ruck by just piling in leading with a shoulder and not one citing after the game.
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Interesting that Itoje is playing 6 for Sarries these days
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Interesting that Itoje is playing 6 for Sarries these days
Lawes at Saints as well.
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Interesting that Itoje is playing 6 for Sarries these days
Lawes at Saints as well.
Blimey, hadn't noticed that
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The BT Sport commentators touched on this at the weekend: They reckon it's big plus for England as there will be three potential jumpers with Kruis as the constant, calling the line-outs. In addition, either Lawes or Itoje can take a rest (during the game) when needed.
No idea which position is considered more demanding or where you can "rest". Regardless, having both at 100%, at their destructive best, for the whole game is quite frankly scary.
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The BT Sport commentators touched on this at the weekend: They reckon it's big plus for England as there will be three potential jumpers with Kruis as the constant, calling the line-outs. In addition, either Lawes or Itoje can take a rest (during the game) when needed.
No idea which position is considered more demanding or where you can "rest". Regardless, having both at 100%, at their destructive best, for the whole game is quite frankly scary.
They key thing is that it means we can have all 4 of our world class locks in the 23, Lawes and Itoje at 5 and 6 and Launchbury or Kruis at 4 with the other on the bench. It's a bit tough on our back row players but whilst we have 2 exceptional 8s (and a 3rd coming through quickly in Sam Simmonds) I'm still not totally convinced by the 6.5s that we seem to be overloaded with. I'd be looking at Underhill to solve that one in the short term but I really like the look of Jack Willis at Wasps as the longer term solution there.
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Just spent a thoroughly enjoyable two hours or so watching Australia turn over New Zealand. Lots of errors in difficult conditions and apart from one or two weird decisions, superbly officiated by Wayne Barnes.
They’ve got enormous strength in depth but I seriously think we can take them on and match them in the World Cup. It’s not great that we’ve not played them since 2014 though, that is a worry.
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Just spent a thoroughly enjoyable two hours or so watching Australia turn over New Zealand. Lots of errors in difficult conditions and apart from one or two weird decisions, superbly officiated by Wayne Barnes.
They’ve got enormous strength in depth but I seriously think we can take them on and match them in the World Cup. It’s not great that we’ve not played them since 2014 though, that is a worry.
Agree.
I think the Lions tour exposed a few chinks in the NZ armour
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The shackle draggers will be right up for it at Twickenham in a few weeks, since the WC we've beaten them what 5 or 6 on the trot?
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The BT Sport commentators touched on this at the weekend: They reckon it's big plus for England as there will be three potential jumpers with Kruis as the constant, calling the line-outs. In addition, either Lawes or Itoje can take a rest (during the game) when needed.
No idea which position is considered more demanding or where you can "rest". Regardless, having both at 100%, at their destructive best, for the whole game is quite frankly scary.
They key thing is that it means we can have all 4 of our world class locks in the 23, Lawes and Itoje at 5 and 6 and Launchbury or Kruis at 4 with the other on the bench. It's a bit tough on our back row players but whilst we have 2 exceptional 8s (and a 3rd coming through quickly in Sam Simmonds) I'm still not totally convinced by the 6.5s that we seem to be overloaded with. I'd be looking at Underhill to solve that one in the short term but I really like the look of Jack Willis at Wasps as the longer term solution there.
Ben Morgan is back on the park for Gloucester now as well.
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The BT Sport commentators touched on this at the weekend: They reckon it's big plus for England as there will be three potential jumpers with Kruis as the constant, calling the line-outs. In addition, either Lawes or Itoje can take a rest (during the game) when needed.
No idea which position is considered more demanding or where you can "rest". Regardless, having both at 100%, at their destructive best, for the whole game is quite frankly scary.
They key thing is that it means we can have all 4 of our world class locks in the 23, Lawes and Itoje at 5 and 6 and Launchbury or Kruis at 4 with the other on the bench. It's a bit tough on our back row players but whilst we have 2 exceptional 8s (and a 3rd coming through quickly in Sam Simmonds) I'm still not totally convinced by the 6.5s that we seem to be overloaded with. I'd be looking at Underhill to solve that one in the short term but I really like the look of Jack Willis at Wasps as the longer term solution there.
Ben Morgan is back on the park for Gloucester now as well.
Indeed, probably not ready for the autumn games but he'll be an option come the 6N.
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England squad gets announced tomorrow. Marler misses 2 of the games from his citing (correct decision, forearm/elbow to the head, not sure how he escaped a red at the time), Hartley has been cleared (correct decision - http://www.rugbydump.com/2017/10/5968/dylan-hartley-cleared-to-play-after-citing-for-bizarre-encounter-with-rabah-slimani (http://www.rugbydump.com/2017/10/5968/dylan-hartley-cleared-to-play-after-citing-for-bizarre-encounter-with-rabah-slimani) - check the video). Hughes is still to come through but I suspect he'll be ok.
Stilll a shit load of injuries around though and a lot of younger players who've had brilliant starts this year. I suspect it'll be a fairly big squad (36-37 as opposed to the 33-34 he's picked the last few times) and there will be 3-4 'one for the future' picks in there.
I'd put money on Marcus Smith being one of those.
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Squad:
Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins) *, Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).
Forwards: Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *, Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).
Mostly happy with that, I still think we need to replace Care and Brown in the squad before the world cup but other than that I think it's about right. Smith is in as expected as is Simmonds. Mercer as well is a bit of a surprise for me because I don't think he's quite there yet but I guess they wanted a 3rd option with Billy being missing. I'm not sure about Tom Dunn but with Taylor and Cowan-Dickie out injured there's no other obvious 3rd choice hooker.
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I've not been following top level rugby that closely. Is there anyone from Glawster who had a case to be in the squad ?
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I've not been following top level rugby that closely. Is there anyone from Glawster who had a case to be in the squad ?
Trinder and Thorley are probably the closest but i think both of them would've needed there to be 2-3 injuries really.
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I've not been following top level rugby that closely. Is there anyone from Glawster who had a case to be in the squad ?
Trinder and Thorley are probably the closest but i think both of them would've needed there to be 2-3 injuries really.
Just shows how quickly we have developed; as there was a period, not so long ago, where Twelvetrees seemed like a regular.
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I've not been following top level rugby that closely. Is there anyone from Glawster who had a case to be in the squad ?
Trinder and Thorley are probably the closest but i think both of them would've needed there to be 2-3 injuries really.
Just shows how quickly we have developed; as there was a period, not so long ago, where Twelvetrees seemed like a regular.
For me he's yet another centre who's fallen into the trap of letting an attempt to fix a weakness in his game bring his one outstanding attribute down to the point where he's average at everything. When he broke through he had an ability to glide past people but got trampled by big runners. He's bulked up to fix that, and is defensively much better but in doing it he's lost that agility. He's certainly not become a bad player but there's just nothing special there. Joseph is showing signs of going the same way as well unfortunately (he's been in terrible form this season).
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That Hughes try is special, from the contact out was just exceptional all the way.
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Great try. Apart from that we have been poor though
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Sloppy this, too many penalties.
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I think you have to commend the Argentina pack a fair bit to be honest, yes there are too many penalties but most of them are a result of pressure. I think there'll be 30ish points here for us though.
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Poor decision by the ref to bin the ARG player. As the commentators said, he was looking at the ball and almost got his hand on the ball. He shouldn’t be penalised because Brown put in a better jump.
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Poor decision by the ref to bin the ARG player. As the commentators said, he was looking at the ball and almost got his hand on the ball. He shouldn’t be penalised because Brown put in a better jump.
Yeah, a yellow was very harsh
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This is very hard work.
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This is very hard work.
Its shit
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It is, it's a pretty poor game this. Looking at Eddie Jones he's about as impressed as me.
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We will probably get away with a poor performance and win this game. In no small part due to horrific kicking at goal from Argentina.
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Lovely from Lozowski.
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Slade has been dreadful
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A very poor day at the office for England. Sloppy, off the pace, lacking in urgency and tempo. Worryingly, Argentina also finished the game the stronger and looking fitter.
Ultimately flattered by a 21-8 score over an Argentina side that has now lost 16 straight to tier one nations. If they kicked even averagely at goal it would have been a close game. I think (I also hope) that Eddie Jones will be fuming.
On the positive side, Underhill had a good game as did Vunipola.
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Slade has been dreadful
Probably tired out this close to Christmas.
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Twice in the build up to the final Aussie try of the 1st half, Will Genia kicked the ball back into a ruck.
Why didn't the ref award a scrum to Wales ? Has the law regarding accidental offside changed ?
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Slade struggled because he was trying to force things because the ball was so slow.
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Poor day at the office really, very few bright spots.
Mako was my MoTM not sure who got it officially, Slade was poor, Care immediately lifted the game then he faded as quickly as he arrived.
If we come out like that next week we’ll be well beaten by Australia.
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I think it was a rusty side who will be massively different with the return of Farrell and Itoje. Slade didn't have a good game, but I think any centre would struggle today. I'd be interested to see him play next to Farrell as I think he's a real talent.
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Good win for Ireland but South Africa are pretty poor
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It is, it's a pretty poor game this. Looking at Eddie Jones he's about as impressed as me.
Interesting that his post interview analysis (they've played X matches recently and are well drilled) are very different to the TV pictures of Eddie during the game. I'd imagine that the message in the changing room was very different to the official line.
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Poor day at the office really, very few bright spots.
Mako was my MoTM not sure who got it officially, Slade was poor, Care immediately lifted the game then he faded as quickly as he arrived.
If we come out like that next week we’ll be well beaten by Australia.
I didn't see the game (other than about 15-20 minutes of the first half which included the Hughes try) but what I did see was Youngs being the same as he always is, very alert when there's a chance for something special but ponderous and inaccurate in the 'meat and drink' phases. I've said it many times I can't work out how him and Care are still the options at 9, Robson is better than both and we have some real quality coming through. Youngs in particular is a throwback to the limited style we saw under the last 2 bosses and that failed us in world cups.
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We had better improve at the weekend. I am thoroughly enjoying our dominance over the shackle rattlers.
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I think we will improve. Ball carrying and quick ball is the key.
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Playing Robson would be a start.
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I think any scrum half would have struggled on Saturday.
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No George Kruis, injury?
Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).
Forwards: Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).
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No George Kruis, injury?
Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).
Forwards: Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs).
I think it's just that there's 4 top class locks in the squad and you have to leave 1 out so it's his turn this week. He didn't have a great game either which won't have helped. Lozowski is pretty unlucky to be sent back though, he improved us last week.
I agree with Chelts on Robson, I've said in plenty of times but I think Youngs is a weak link in this squad. He can have moments of brilliance but too often he's flat footed, indecisive and ponderous when there isn't a gap for him to hit, it's like his brain works quickly when there's a chance for him to be the star but if he can't spot that gap he's just happy to keep it slow and steady. That's why we look much more fluid when Care comes on because Ford is suddenly getting ball with time to pick options.
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shouldn't the familiarity of Young > Ford be worth building on? It's one relationship that should already exist and not, therefore, need to be developed during England training camps?
When there's a gnat's breath between the that and the alternative I'd suggest that is a plus/justification.
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France to host 2023 RWC
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France to host 2023 RWC
Are they hosting it all over Europe again?
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France to host 2023 RWC
Are they hosting it all over Europe again?
From the final proposal yes, all 9 venues are in France - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup#France
As it says there were 19 in the original list and I think that included a couple of Italian cities but they were quickly removed because they decided to focus on 'brand France' as their draw for it.
SA are aggrieved over the whole thing having come marginally ahead on the recommendation but I suspect that the withdrawal of the Durban commonwealth games has played a big part in that decision.
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France to host 2023 RWC
Are they hosting it all over Europe again?
From the final proposal yes, all 9 venues are in France - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup#France
As it says there were 19 in the original list and I think that included a couple of Italian cities but they were quickly removed because they decided to focus on 'brand France' as their draw for it.
SA are aggrieved over the whole thing having come marginally ahead on the recommendation but I suspect that the withdrawal of the Durban commonwealth games has played a big part in that decision.
Quite right, too, imo.
What's this a bout Durban? Must have missed that
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Assuming that the 2027 RWC goes to the southern hemisphere, I suspect that 2031 will be USA/Canada.
After that, maybe Ireland could anchor a pan-European bid with games also in Scotland, Italy, Georgia and Romania
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France to host 2023 RWC
Are they hosting it all over Europe again?
From the final proposal yes, all 9 venues are in France - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Rugby_World_Cup#France
As it says there were 19 in the original list and I think that included a couple of Italian cities but they were quickly removed because they decided to focus on 'brand France' as their draw for it.
SA are aggrieved over the whole thing having come marginally ahead on the recommendation but I suspect that the withdrawal of the Durban commonwealth games has played a big part in that decision.
Quite right, too, imo.
What's this a bout Durban? Must have missed that
http://www.espn.co.uk/athletics/story/_/id/18903981/durban-stripped-2022-commonwealth-games
I can't believe that something like that won't have been in the minds of the board when it came to the vote but it is only a guess.
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Itoje on the bench? really?!
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I think there's 2 sides to that. First is that Jones doesn't want to over use him (and he's said as much today) but the other is that the direct replacement for him in the team is Lawes, who's the form player in English rugby right now (in my opinion). I still think that Robshaw is the one who will be really worried because Jones clearly rates Lawes and Itoje massively but wants a bit of extra bulk in the 2nd row early on. Give Lauchbury or Kruis an hour at 4 with Itoje at 6 then move him forward for a back rower. It means you can have Hughes and Simmonds/Clifford as your bench (assuming Vunipola starts) to bring on 2 destructive ball carriers which fits the whole 'finishers' approach. Robshaw's real trump card is his work rate, but Lawes and Itoje easily match him on that and bring so much more threat with ball in hand, both in terms of power and technical skills. I think once that change happens we'll be seeing the pack that he takes to the world cup. The only question mark left is at Hooker but whilst Hartley and George are both playing well there's not much reason to change things around, especially with Hartley doing a great job as captain.
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I think once that change happens we'll be seeing the pack that he takes to the world cup. The only question mark left is at Hooker but whilst Hartley and George are both playing well there's not much reason to change things around, especially with Hartley doing a great job as captain.
I saw something last week that said, from Wednesday, Jones hands over training to the captain and 9 and ten(s) [presumably including Farrell too]. Nothing was divulged about what that means in practice but it does emphasise the significance of having a captain that he trusts and possibly why Hartley gets selected ahead of George.
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France to host 2023 RWC
French air traffic controllers, port authority workers & train drivers already busy planning industrial action.
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Right, come on then England, this is the big one for this series. Watson at 15 (where he's best) needs to show why Brown shouldn't get back in.
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I feel for Underhill but I'm loving see Lawes and Itoje both in there, both playing superbly.
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6-0 up at half time and currently they have 13, both yellows were spot on for me. The conditions haven't really helped but the defence has been solid and Daly and May have had decent chances out wide under the high balls where they've not quite got the breaks.
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I feel for Underhill but I'm loving see Lawes and Itoje both in there, both playing superbly.
Underhill strikes me as a player who will get that sort of injury every couple of international matches. He lays his body on the line every single tackle.
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I feel for Underhill but I'm loving see Lawes and Itoje both in there, both playing superbly.
Underhill strikes me as a player who will get that sort of injury every couple of international matches. He lays his body on the line every single tackle.
Absolutely, if he wants to be a regular international he needs to find the line and get just on the right side of it because he does pick up too many little niggles, he's still a kid though so he's got plenty of time to get that experience.
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This is awful, best part of 20 minutes with a numerical advantage and we've made fuck all from it
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I don't think it's awful, I think it's just down to inaccuracies. If Itoje had got the pass away it'd have been a simple one for May, so fine margins. That said we do need to step things up and we do need to work on those problems.
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Wow, the Aussies thought the ball was going out, bit of breathing space with that try.
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Christ the Aussies don't stop whingeing.
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Great reward for Daly there, game is breaking up here, will be a controversial one in Australia though because that was very close to the line (I don't think it was obvious either way so by the question the ref asked it had to stand).
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More for the Aussies to whinge about.
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Yep, but again, that's the right decision for me. I think the bit that seals it is that Robshaw couldn't complete the tackle, if he gets his arm through and gets both hands onto the man then nothing is said.
And that's the game. This hasn't been a fantastic performance but we've taken the 2 big chances we've had, that one is a brilliant finish from JJ.
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This last couple of minutes has been harsh on the ozzies, this really wasn't a 30 point performance from England but our outside backs are so quick and so dangerous in the 22 that if we get the tactics right (kicking in behind them was clearly a plan) we'll put this many past anyone in the world.
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Yep didn't deserve to win by so many but we did. Love beating the Aussies at any sport.
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If England's disjointed performances are put down to rustiness, because it's early season and the squad need to get used to each other again, why do Scotland look so "on it"?
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If England's disjointed performances are put down to rustiness, because it's early season and the squad need to get used to each other again, why do Scotland look so "on it"?
And how are Scotland getting on?
Not quite 'On it' ;)
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Such a weird game, but Itoje was magnificent and when fit he should be on for as long as he possibly can be.
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He gets a lot of stick but Care was excellent when he came on.
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Thought Lawes and Launchbury were excellent.
I happen to like the Youngs/Care number 9 partnership, too. Yes I know they're not everyone's cup of tea, but, for me they work.
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Thought Lawes and Launchbury were excellent.
I happen to like the Youngs/Care number 9 partnership, too. Yes I know they're not everyone's cup of tea, but, for me they work.
I think either of them look good coming on later in the game because they're quick and like to attack around the fringes. With a pack as mobile as ours the cover defence is usually fucked after an hour so a fresh 9 can find loads of space. The issue for me is that whichever of them starts our game looks disjointed because they don't create quick ball for the 10 and until it breaks up that makes us a little 1 paced and predictable.
That's why I'd like to see Robson in place of one of them becaue I think he's got a more rounded game and that he will find a 10 standing flat with quick ball, which would work really well with Ford.
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Thought the officials had an excellent game yesterday. Got all the major decisions spot on
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Credit to Scotland. I doubt NZ were expecting a game of that intensity despite what they've said afterwards.
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NZ are showing slight signs of weakness of late.
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Credit to Scotland. I doubt NZ were expecting a game of that intensity despite what they're said afterwards.
Yep, only watched the highlights but there's some pretty horrific decisions in that one.
Not giving the NZ wing a yellow for taking Hogg in the air was a piss poor decision. Not only did he take him in the air but it was also a body check with no attempt to wrap the arms.
After that there's the yellow card for Cane which was clear as day but really should've been a penalty try. By just giving the yellow it didn't change their appraoch, a penalty try would've made them compete legally.
They did it again for the Crockett yellow and then again for the Read/Gray incident (here - https://youtu.be/PI64vURdk1g?t=2h1m10s (https://youtu.be/PI64vURdk1g?t=2h1m10s) - Read lying on the floor bats the ball out of his hands when he's a step away from scoring right in front). Between the lot of them yes NZ were punished but the time that it wasted worked in their favour because they had a big enough lead to just focus on the clock.
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Credit to Scotland. I doubt NZ were expecting a game of that intensity despite what they're said afterwards.
Yep, only watched the highlights but there's some pretty horrific decisions in that one.
Not giving the NZ wing a yellow for taking Hogg in the air was a piss poor decision. Not only did he take him in the air but it was also a body check with no attempt to wrap the arms.
After that there's the yellow card for Cane which was clear as day but really should've been a penalty try. By just giving the yellow it didn't change their appraoch, a penalty try would've made them compete legally.
They did it again for the Crockett yellow and then again for the Read/Gray incident (here - https://youtu.be/PI64vURdk1g?t=2h1m10s (https://youtu.be/PI64vURdk1g?t=2h1m10s) - Read lying on the floor bats the ball out of his hands when he's a step away from scoring right in front). Between the lot of them yes NZ were punished but the time that it wasted worked in their favour because they had a big enough lead to just focus on the clock.
Haven't seen highlights, but, it sounds like NZ getting punished only in poor field position for Scotland, never when NZ could be punished with points.
Read is becoming the new McCaw, gets away with anything!!
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Credit to Scotland. I doubt NZ were expecting a game of that intensity despite what they're said afterwards.
Yep, only watched the highlights but there's some pretty horrific decisions in that one.
Not giving the NZ wing a yellow for taking Hogg in the air was a piss poor decision. Not only did he take him in the air but it was also a body check with no attempt to wrap the arms.
After that there's the yellow card for Cane which was clear as day but really should've been a penalty try. By just giving the yellow it didn't change their appraoch, a penalty try would've made them compete legally.
They did it again for the Crockett yellow and then again for the Read/Gray incident (here - https://youtu.be/PI64vURdk1g?t=2h1m10s (https://youtu.be/PI64vURdk1g?t=2h1m10s) - Read lying on the floor bats the ball out of his hands when he's a step away from scoring right in front). Between the lot of them yes NZ were punished but the time that it wasted worked in their favour because they had a big enough lead to just focus on the clock.
Haven't seen highlights, but, it sounds like NZ getting punished only in poor field position for Scotland, never when NZ could be punished with points.
Read is becoming the new McCaw, gets away with anything!!
Yep, there was one earlier where Read rolls into a ruck from the side and holds the ball in whilst they setup the counter-ruck and you could see him watching for the ref the entire time. This is why I struggle to give NZ the praise that most do, for all their quality in the backs they're the dirtiest pack in the world by a long way and have been for years.
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So England game is looking almost over after 10 minutes. 12-0 but totally dominant and very nearly had another but for a marginal forward pass. As I was typing that though you had a bit of desperate defence on our own loan.
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and there's the try back, came from some really poor play by Ewels from the restart.
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up to 22-7 and England are getting back into control after being a little flustered by the silly play to concede.
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Decent on the scoreboard but Lozowski and Slade doesn't work as a centre pairing for me and Robshaw looks a little lost having been shoved over to 7 again. Jones got that call right 2 years ago when he shifted him to 6 so I'm not sure why he's changed his mind. Brown has done ok but, as is often the case, he's got a habit of not looking up.
Across the whole team there seemed to be a real desire to smash them in the opening 10 but then when it actually happened we just let the intensity drop and made the game much more even than it had any right to be.
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They're all over us at the breakdown right now, This is what i mean about Robshaw, he should be looking at this and making sure he's there to protect it on the floor, right now he's too eager to get to first receiver and they know it so they're commiting to spoiling things on the floor.
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Brilliant late try from Daly.
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Funny autumn series from England, three wins but felt like something was missing.
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Sounds like Eddie Jones took the opportunity to try out new players and combinations. He will know his strongest team, but would want to see how other players play when they step up.
Can't complain about another three wins.
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In my very unbiased opinion, Scotland are the best team in the World at the moment.
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In my very unbiased opinion, Scotland are the best team in the World at the moment.
They're the best Scottish side for about 20 years, for me it's no surprise that it has come with the absence of laidlaw, I like Russell and he looks much better with a 9 giving him quality ball.
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In my very unbiased opinion, Scotland are the best team in the World at the moment.
They're the best Scottish side for about 20 years, for me it's no surprise that it has come with the absence of laidlaw, I like Russell and he looks much better with a 9 giving him quality ball.
Agree.
Laidlaw is a decent scrum half, but, he got in mainly for his kicking for goal as Scotland hadn't anyone else.
Going to be a great game at Murreyfield in the next 6 nations
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Is it just me, or is it the case that in spite of a brilliant record results-wise, England rarely play that well under EJ?
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The Taffs are starting a kiwi at the weekend who qualifies for them on residency by about half an hour.
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Wales have blown a 21-3 lead to be trailing 22-21 with about 15 to go.
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Can't find who Scotland are playing anywhere?
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The Taffs are starting a kiwi at the weekend who qualifies for them on residency by about half an hour.
A return to the good old days of Shane Howarth
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Can't find who Scotland are playing anywhere?
They didn't. Only Wales played today because this weekend is outside the international window. Technically the players, union and clubs could all be fined for it.
Onto the Welsh game, I had a bet for Wales to win, Wasps to win by more than 7 and Exeter to win by more than 9 which came in, nice £50 for not much effort. Then had another with the same 3 but then also Gloucester to win by more than 10, Ealing, Leinster and Munster to win by more than 14 and Castres to win by more than 10, All came in except Castres who won by exactly 10 so I was 1 point away from just shy of £5000 :(
I've found I'm really good at betting on rugby so long as I ignore Saints.
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Wasps won by 7, not more than 7?
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Sorry, more than 6, I started writing as win by x and then realised it didn't read as well so I changed them but I forgot to change that number.
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Is it just me, or is it the case that in spite of a brilliant record results-wise, England rarely play that well under EJ?
I kinda agree with that.
We generally win in the last 10 minutes having bludgeoned the opposition and our 'finishers' come on feeling fresh. We are also good enough to stop pretty much any team from playing exciting rugby against us, so over all the spectacle can be a bit flat.
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Is it just me, or is it the case that in spite of a brilliant record results-wise, England rarely play that well under EJ?
I kinda agree with that.
We generally win in the last 10 minutes having bludgeoned the opposition and our 'finishers' come on feeling fresh. We are also good enough to stop pretty much any team from playing exciting rugby against us, so over all the spectacle can be a bit flat.
I'm not sure. We play well in spells in the first hjour and generally in the last 20 minutes we're utterly brilliant. I think a big part of the problem is at 9. I get why Jones likes Youngs and Care but neither of them generates quick ball with any regularity so whilst teams are fresh they compete hard at the breakdown and we don't have the space out wide. As teams tire and gaps start to appear we change the 9 and the one coming on has all the time and space in the world and runs the game for us but I'd love us to find someone to get in and pass off the floor sometimes and force the opposition to be more wary of throwing too many people in.
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The continual injuries to Billy Vunipola have gotten beyond a joke now. Id be tempted to ban him from playing for Saracens
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The continual injuries to Billy Vunipola have gotten beyond a joke now. Id be tempted to ban him from playing for Saracens
This one was all about piss poor tackle technique (just like Haskell and Marler who've fucked themselves with bans rather than injuries) where he wanted to smash the guy and then wrap the arm afterwards, I don't know what happened next but I'd have given a penalty for it. The problem is if you tackle like that against a guy who's 20 stone and motoring you only need to get it slightly wrong to cause an injury to one or both of you.
Maybe I'm being harsh though, I'm just fed with seeing English players miss games because they can't tackle properly. Take a look - http://www.rugbydump.com/2018/01/6119/this-is-how-billy-vunipola-broke-his-arm
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Some good news & actually quite unexpected, Eddie Jones extends his contract to August 2021, great to hear & gives him the opportunity to tour with England as World Champions.
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Arrogant, much?
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Well that's always the perception of England so we may as well live up to it.
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It is arrogant but it's the arrogance that 1 defeat in 23 over the space of 2 years brings. Us and New Zealand are on a different level to the rest of the rugby world right now and we will go into the world cup as the favourites for the final.
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It was intended as very much tongue in cheek but yeah fuck it why not, 1 defeat in 23 and 1 in 28 by the end of March ;)
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Haskell banned for a month so misses the first 2 rounds of the 6N.
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England won’t win the six nations this year, so there will be at least one loss there.
I don’t think the squad, collectively, made enough progress in the autumn internationals to bridge the gap created by all the injuries. Ideally players like Sam Simmons and a new full back should be more established in the side.
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England won’t win the six nations this year, so there will be at least one loss there.
I don’t think the squad, collectively, made enough progress in the autumn internationals to bridge the gap created by all the injuries. Ideally players like Sam Simmons and a new full back should be more established in the side.
I think they will but it won't be a triple crown or grand slam again.
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I think the injuries to key players makes the 6 nations a really good test for us. It's an opportunity to test our depth.
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I think the injuries to key players makes the 6 nations a really good test for us. It's an opportunity to test our depth.
It will be a test no doubt. Billy Vunipola is such a huge loss though. That showed in last years six nations, in which despite winning it, the Scotland game aside we didn't play well at all. Also showed during the autumn internationals.
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Sam Simmons looks an excellent replacement for billy. He was immense, especially in the loose, for Exeter against Glasgow despite losing. I watched the game with a bunch of Exeter fans and he is becoming a bit of a talisman for the club.
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He's a fantastic player and Mercer has been superb for Bath as well. I think there's great value to be gained from being forced to give these guys their chance.
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He's a fantastic player and Mercer has been superb for Bath as well. I think there's great value to be gained from being forced to give these guys their chance.
Agree.
We went to Argentina and had to blood some inexperienced guys due to the Lions tour.
Had several injuries for the autumn internationals, too.
Both series ended well.
I think it could be the tightest 6 nations ever, with 3 or even 4 teams in with a chance.
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He's a fantastic player and Mercer has been superb for Bath as well. I think there's great value to be gained from being forced to give these guys their chance.
Agree.
We went to Argentina and had to blood some inexperienced guys due to the Lions tour.
Had several injuries for the autumn internationals, too.
Both series ended well.
I think it could be the tightest 6 nations ever, with 3 or even 4 teams in with a chance.
Nah. We will win at home (when Jon Crofts finally gives me and Charlie a free ish ticket to one), beat the Sweaties in a close game. But I worry about the game in Paris. I still have Engand winning this comfortably after a scare in Jock land but where we mash them off the bench in the last 20. I have no concerns about home defeats.
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I think the games get tougher as it goes along this time round. Italy should be fairly straight forward, then we have Wales who I'm always confident of beating at home, that should be 2 from 2 without too many concerns. Then you have the 2 tough away games against Scotland and France before a potential grand slam game at home to the only side who've beaten us in 3 years, so the pressure in that will be huge. I don't think there's much between Wales, Scotland and France though with us and the Irish a little way ahead right now. I worry for the italians again, I think they could take a few big beatings this year.
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He's a fantastic player and Mercer has been superb for Bath as well. I think there's great value to be gained from being forced to give these guys their chance.
Agree.
We went to Argentina and had to blood some inexperienced guys due to the Lions tour.
Had several injuries for the autumn internationals, too.
Both series ended well.
I think it could be the tightest 6 nations ever, with 3 or even 4 teams in with a chance.
Nah. We will win at home (when Jon Crofts finally gives me and Charlie a free ish ticket to one), beat the Sweaties in a close game. But I worry about the game in Paris. I still have Engand winning this comfortably after a scare in Jock land but where we mash them off the bench in the last 20. I have no concerns about home defeats.
I'll see what I can do for you in the Autumn Internationals mate, even debenture holders struggled to get additional 6N tickets this year doe to a monumental fuck up on the RFU website.
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I reckon tickets fort he Japan game will be ok, and maybe SA but Australia always sells out quick. NZ is probably the biggest international match (outside a world cup final) for 20 years or more, that's going to sell out very quickly and if tickets go up on third party sites they'll be well in the thousands, it's genuinely mouth-watering, the first meeting between us in 4 years and with England pushing hard to take top spot in the rankings. I'm already excited for that one, it's either going to be a 'where were you' game (regardless who wins) or 80 minutes of defence and territory with both teams shit scared to attack and my money is on the former.
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I reckon tickets fort he Japan game will be ok, and maybe SA but Australia always sells out quick. NZ is probably the biggest international match (outside a world cup final) for 20 years or more, that's going to sell out very quickly and if tickets go up on third party sites they'll be well in the thousands, it's genuinely mouth-watering, the first meeting between us in 4 years and with England pushing hard to take top spot in the rankings. I'm already excited for that one, it's either going to be a 'where were you' game (regardless who wins) or 80 minutes of defence and territory with both teams shit scared to attack and my money is on the former.
You'd be surprised what sells out, for the past few years Autumn Internationals Oz & SA tickets were easily obtained through ballots, ERSC & clubs, NZ game packages are already on sale via RFU appointed agents, I very much doubt more than 2 or 3 thousand tickets will make it to English rugby clubs for the NZ game meaning there will be next to nil available to ERSC members or the public unless you're willing to pay £1000 for a £90 ticket.
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I knew how odd the sales can be, I just think the inclusion of NZ this time means that the other games might not see such a clamour.
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He's a fantastic player and Mercer has been superb for Bath as well. I think there's great value to be gained from being forced to give these guys their chance.
Agree.
We went to Argentina and had to blood some inexperienced guys due to the Lions tour.
Had several injuries for the autumn internationals, too.
Both series ended well.
I think it could be the tightest 6 nations ever, with 3 or even 4 teams in with a chance.
Nah. We will win at home (when Jon Crofts finally gives me and Charlie a free ish ticket to one), beat the Sweaties in a close game. But I worry about the game in Paris. I still have Engand winning this comfortably after a scare in Jock land but where we mash them off the bench in the last 20. I have no concerns about home defeats.
I'll see what I can do for you in the Autumn Internationals mate, even debenture holders struggled to get additional 6N tickets this year doe to a monumental fuck up on the RFU website.
I was only joking Jon. Although Charlie is dead keen on a trip to HQ.
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He's a fantastic player and Mercer has been superb for Bath as well. I think there's great value to be gained from being forced to give these guys their chance.
Agree.
We went to Argentina and had to blood some inexperienced guys due to the Lions tour.
Had several injuries for the autumn internationals, too.
Both series ended well.
I think it could be the tightest 6 nations ever, with 3 or even 4 teams in with a chance.
Nah. We will win at home (when Jon Crofts finally gives me and Charlie a free ish ticket to one), beat the Sweaties in a close game. But I worry about the game in Paris. I still have Engand winning this comfortably after a scare in Jock land but where we mash them off the bench in the last 20. I have no concerns about home defeats.
I'll see what I can do for you in the Autumn Internationals mate, even debenture holders struggled to get additional 6N tickets this year doe to a monumental fuck up on the RFU website.
I was only joking Jon. Although Charlie is dead keen on a trip to HQ.
Let me know what you're after in good time & I'll see what I can do.
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Good news for US based folks, NBC Sports are showing the 6 nations this year. They've been ramping up the rugby coverage over the last year or two showing Premiership games, but this is really great!
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So Round 1 predictions ladies & gents if you please............
Wales v Scotland Saturday at 2:15 too close to call for me, if I had to pick a winner, a very close win for Scotland.
France v Ireland Saturday 17:45 another close one, Ireland by 6.
Italy v England Sunday 15:00 England by 20. I'll wave at you on the telly box.
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Wales 2 sets to one
France on a penalty shootout after extra time
England by an innings and 27 runs
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This is a strange week where the away sides are the better teams but in 2 cases things are close enough that home advantage might be significant.
England will win comfortably, I'd agree that a 20+ bet on this one looks safe.
Scotland will take the points because of the inexperience in the Welsh backs.
I think Ireland will win but I wouldn't bet on it, the worst thing is i can't even say that I think it will be close because no result up to 10-12 points either way would surprise me, both teams can score from nothing so I'm just going to call it as the best game of that round and leave it at that.
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So Round 1 predictions ladies & gents if you please............
Wales v Scotland Saturday at 2:15 too close to call for me, if I had to pick a winner, a very close win for Scotland.
France v Ireland Saturday 17:45 another close one, Ireland by 6.
Italy v England Sunday 15:00 England by 20. I'll wave at you on the telly box.
With the Welsh injury list you'd have to go for Scotland, but, I've a feeling it will be close. I might have a cheeky couple of quid on a surprise Wales win.
Can't see beyond an Ireland win.
It wouldn't surprise me if Italy keep this fairly close, but again, I can't see beyond an England win
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Wales
Ireland
England
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The Scotland fixtures seem to be absolute shite for me. The only Sunday we are playing on is when Villa are on Sunday, too. Why can't Scotland ever play a Friday night game?
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The interesting teams will be Wales and France. The Welsh injury list gives chances to a lot of new young players and I've a feeling they will play an open expansive game.
France, who knows? Could be anything, they have the players just whether they can be organised.
I'm going for Wales, just, Ireland, just and England but not as comfortable as it should be, by 10 points.
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The Scotland fixtures seem to be absolute shite for me. The only Sunday we are playing on is when Villa are on Sunday, too. Why can't Scotland ever play a Friday night game?
Have Scotland ever played on a Friday night?
I think France have & Wales have a couple of times and at least once against England I'm sure. Knowing the petty, bitter sheep worriers done deliberately in an attempt to limit the number of England fans who could get to Cardiff on time over the Severn Bridge.
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England, Scotland and Ireland.
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Best of luck to England, Wales, Ireland, France and Italy in their pursuit of the runners-up spot.
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Te'o starts which is interesting.
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Te'o starts which is interesting.
Makes sense in my opinion. With the injuries to Vunipola and Hughes, we have a lack of ball carriers in the pack, so a bit of grunt at centre is needed.
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Best of luck to England, Wales, Ireland, France and Italy in their pursuit of the runners-up spot.
I know little about Rugby but the media are saying this is the best Scots team for many a year. Can they win the 6 nations?
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I dunno really. I'd like to be in with a chance of winning going into the last weekend. Don't think that has happened since it changed to six teams. I confess I'm scared of our dreadful record in Wales but if we win today I might start to believe.
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This is the best scotland team for a long time but they are still drawing from a very shallow pool of talent. If they were coming into this with an injury record like England or Wales no one would give them a sniff so they've still got a long way to go. Far and away the most important thing in their rise though was actually an injury because they'd never have dropped Laidlaw otherwise and a 9 who isn't great at attacking round the fringes and who has the passing quality you'd expect of a front 5 or winger would never have worked for the high tempo game they're now playing.
I think Scotland will win today and I think they'll be fighting for 3rd with France overall but that's still a massive progression from being the team that looked like falling aside for the italians for a long time. England and Ireland have squads that are much stronger which means their 'finishers' from the bench will make the difference in the big games.
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Many think Scotland could beat England at Murryfield.
If that happens, then they have Ireland in Dublin, next game, which I think Ireland will win.
England would need to beat Ireland at Twickenham and we have a 3 way tie. So bonus points will be vital
Assuming, of course, that the 3 win their other games.
I think Wales could beat the Scots today which would derail their 6 nations straight away.
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I've just remembered rugby is shite.
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The scots have frozen under the expectation here. Russell looks like a shadow of the player he can be.
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The scots have frozen under the expectation here. Russell looks like a shadow of the player he can be.
Never thought Finn Russell was that good. Flashes of brilliance but never consistent enough.
I had a feeling Wales would win (can't see Scotland getting back into this game) but I thought the Jocks would make a game of it.
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I expected a close game and the bench to get it for them but the had a terrible start and wales are just playing counter attack rugby now.
All the handling errors are the key, scotland can't build pressure because they can't hold on the ball.
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Also the decisio to let Cotter go doesn't look so smart now.
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Best Scotland team in ages! 😂
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Very poor scottish performance, far too many mistakes. Wales will get lauded but i don't think they did anything special, just punished the repeated errors.
This next game should be good, really depends whether France turn up though.
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My first prediction goes horribly wrong. A bit like the Scotland game plan.
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Bollocks.
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Christ, what a drop goal from Sexton.
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Bloody hell
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French Dr a cheat? Or maybe Knee is pronounced Head in French, so it was a translation error!
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Didn't France do something similar a year or two ago, too?
The game I'm thinking of was the Dr said the inexperienced prop, who was getting mullered and were in danger of a penalty try, had a head injury, so France were allowed to bring the experienced prop back on who steadied the scrum and France saw the game out.
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Yeah, the HIA rules have been exploited a few times but today was particularly blatant.
Good game though and this one was as close as we suspected.
On to the main event tomorrow now, I have a bet on this one of England by 15 or more and to get the bonus point.
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I think its a must to get a bonus point vrs Italy, especially as Scotland gave Wales a freebe.
I'm pretty sure Scotland won't play that badly again this 6 nations
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Good start for England, 2 great finishes from Watson, terrible looking injury for Youngs though and the ref missed a clear yellow card for their winger shoulder charging (at best) Watson as he scored the 2nd. Great defence as well, Italy haven't had a sniff.
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A couple of silly mistakes for their try aside this is a fantastic performance, we look so sharp.
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What a burst from Simmonds.
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England running riot second half. Very impressive.
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Played some awesome stuff at times today. The Ford/Farrell axis in particular worked beautifully. The strength in depth in English rugby is exceptional. To be that strong off the bench with all the injuries we currently have must be frightening to the other nations.
Only criticism would be over the tries conceded. Slightly worrying to be caught out by a ball over the top twice.
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Excellent England.
Thought Sam Simmonds was excellent.
Was nice to see Italy play rugby, rather than the anti-rugby of last year. Well done O'Shay.
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Lots of incisive passing today by England - must be a nightmare to defend against with so many runners on different lines.
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Excellent England.
Thought Sam Simmonds was excellent.
Was nice to see Italy play rugby, rather than the anti-rugby of last year. Well done O'Shay.
He's devastating over the first few yards.
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
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No news on Youngs’ injury, you could hear him scream when it happened, not nice.
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Excellent England.
Thought Sam Simmonds was excellent.
Should have been MoTM rather than Watson
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Excellent England.
Thought Sam Simmonds was excellent.
Should have been MoTM rather than Watson
I think you could've picked 5-6 players for man of the match and justified the lot. The entire pack were excellent, Farrell was superb, Watson was nearly faultless and Simmonds had an exceptional 2nd half. Aside from a couple of defensive errors I don't think England could've done much more. Either way I'm glad Simmonds has come in and shown what he can bring, a back row with that pace and power is a fantastic weapon to have. Looking forward, a back 5 (and bench) of Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Simmonds, Billy V and Hughes will tear apart any team in the world if we can get them all fit and firing and that's leaving out players like Mercer, Isiekwe, Kruis and Underhill (and with 2-3 other youngsters looking the business as well, Jack Willis being the next off the queue).
I said to a few friends after the first try that there were 50 points out there if we stuck at it and worked to our strengths and I wasn't far off. To me we looked like a team who knew they'd had a wobble in 2017 where the attack hadn't looked quite so dynamic and they made sure to put down a marker for everyone. If we can tighten up the defence against high kicks I can't see anyone getting close to us in this 6N.
Also, that's now 23 from 24 for Jones, what an inspired choice he's proving to be and it's good to feel vindicated in my arguments that Lancaster was the main reason for us fucking up so spectacularly in the world cup, you don't go from that humiliation to this unless there were serious problems in the setup before.
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Enjoyed that yesterday. Can I also give a nod to Johnny May who finally showed there is more to him than just searing pace.
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
As I was worried about they've added Wigglesworth, I don't get why Jones is unwilling to call up Robson.
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
As I was worried about they've added Wigglesworth, I don't get why Jones is unwilling to call up Robson.
Him, rather than Robson, is fucking ridiculous.
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
As I was worried about they've added Wigglesworth, I don't get why Jones is unwilling to call up Robson.
Him, rather than Robson, is fucking ridiculous.
Experience?
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
As I was worried about they've added Wigglesworth, I don't get why Jones is unwilling to call up Robson.
Him, rather than Robson, is fucking ridiculous.
Experience?
True but we already have the experienced box kicking 9 in Care, we need someone to attack the fringes and keep the defence tight, Care is ok at it but Wigglesworth is far too slow to be a threat. Robson coming on after 60 would create loads of space.
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
As I was worried about they've added Wigglesworth, I don't get why Jones is unwilling to call up Robson.
Him, rather than Robson, is fucking ridiculous.
Experience?
True but we already have the experienced box kicking 9 in Care, we need someone to attack the fringes and keep the defence tight, Care is ok at it but Wigglesworth is far too slow to be a threat. Robson coming on after 60 would create loads of space.
Was about word for word what I was intending to reply. If we want finishers, that ain't Wiggleworth.
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Ok, guesses for who's going to replace Ben Youngs?
Fingers crossed for Robson. Hopefully not wigglesworth.
As I was worried about they've added Wigglesworth, I don't get why Jones is unwilling to call up Robson.
Him, rather than Robson, is fucking ridiculous.
Experience?
True but we already have the experienced box kicking 9 in Care, we need someone to attack the fringes and keep the defence tight, Care is ok at it but Wigglesworth is far too slow to be a threat. Robson coming on after 60 would create loads of space.
Was about word for word what I was intending to reply. If we want finishers, that ain't Wiggleworth.
Maybe he's starting!!! :o
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I bloody hope not! It is like picking me ahead of Jack Grealish.
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I bloody hope not! It is like picking me ahead of Jack Grealish.
;D
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Care starts Wigglesworth is a finisher & JJ comes in for Teo.
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I don't mind JJ in but still think Wigglesworth is a silly selection. Do we know who the sheep botherers have picked yet?
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Unchanged from last week I believe.
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Great kick from Farrell for the first try. Less so for the conversion attempt.
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Good first half, quite an even game.
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Lots of England errors, Wales not taking advantage.
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Good game, not a lot in it to be honest. Well done England.
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Blimey made hard work of that.
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I reckon that's the weakest set of 'finishers' we've had since he's been in charge, very little impact from the bench. Wigglesworth just made us sooo slow.
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Finished up with us just getting the result which I suppose what it is all about.Had a chance 2nd half half to force it over being 4 yards out but when that failed it gave Wales hope.
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Appreciate loads of injuries but we need to get better.
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Made very hard work of that and the officials didn’t help, inconsistent refereeing and poor touch judges allowing Wales to drift offside in second half when England were threatening the line on several occasions.
Wales kicking was frankly hopeless, Brown gobbled pretty much everything that was hoofed up to him.
Robshaw gets better and better at 7 every game as does the FordFarrell combination.
Not sure how Ford got MotM surely May was ahead, personally though I’d have given it to Launchbury.
2 weeks off now, time to recover & regroup.
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Christ there’s some whinging Welshers out there tonight as well.
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Some odd officiating. Wales only conceded 2 penalties all game, which either shows the discipline of 15 monks, or some pretty inconsistent refereeing. In all fairness Wales did have what looked a perfectly legitimate try not given. Some of the penalties we continue to concede just seem so needless. We really need to get that in order and pronto.
The game itself, we looked ok in patches, and caused them a no of problems when Care got quick ball. Defensively solid for the most part (Underhills try saver probably the tackle of the season winner). We did look disjointed and careless for too many spells though. I'd give the performance no more than a 5/10
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I’ve watched the non try several times it’s not a difficult rule to interpret, even if it was given Wales would still have lost even if the try was converted.
Wales will beat Ireland.
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I've watched it a few times, and I say not a try. The Welsh lad's hand brushed it before the ball was on the ground, then it was Watson who actually grounded it.
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Christ there’s some whinging Welshers out there tonight as well.
As someone who's loyalties lie west of Offah's Dyke, I would say with good reason!! Think it is pretty clear that Anscombe's hand applies downward pressure on the ball first, but there you go. In all reality though, even it had been awarded there would have still been a long way to go and the pattern of the game would have been completely different.
I thought it was a hard fought test match and was a bit reminiscent of the 2015 World Cup game in that England threatened to run away with it only for Wales to come back into it in the latter stages. England's kicking game was far better on the day and it's hard to see why Wales so often persist kicking possession away when it clearly isn't working. I thought England just missed that little creative spark today and wonder if Daly could provide it at 13 when he returns.
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I've watched it a few times, and I say not a try. The Welsh lad's hand brushed it before the ball was on the ground, then it was Watson who actually grounded it.
I agree Risso. The Welsh New Zealander although applying some downward pressure did not have control of the ball or actually ground it imho.
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It's a tough one for me.
First I'm far from convinced that the winger doesn't knock it on, there's 2 times that the ball is very close to his hands and goes forward but it's hard to say whether he makes contact. On top of that the 2nd attempt he makes at it he clearly has a foot in touch but again that comes back to whether he makes contact.
After that I think there are 3 distinct touches during the grounding,Watson gets the back of the ball (nearest to them), THEN Anscombe gets the side and finally Watson slaps a hand on top. That makes there 2 key decisions, Does the first Watson hand come away from the ball before it's grounded and does Anscombe have control of the ball during grounding. I don't think you can can definitively say yes to both of those so, as much as I'd be livid if that was an England one that was disallowed, I can understand why both the ref and the TMO have decided they can't give it. I've watched it about 20 times now and I still don't have an answer so I understand why they reached the same conclusion.
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I've watched it a few times, and I say not a try. The Welsh lad's hand brushed it before the ball was on the ground, then it was Watson who actually grounded it.
I agree I don't he's controlling that.
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England need to find a way of keeping the scoreboard ticking over. With both Ford and Farrell they should be able to engineer drop kick opportunities quite easily.
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Scotland not started too brightly today either
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Really enjoyable game this so far. France displaying some lovely technical skills at the moment
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And then France completely fall apart in the 2nd half and lose all semblance of discipline.
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And then France completely fall apart in the 2nd half and lose all semblance of discipline.
Quel surprise as they say in Calais.
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
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And then France completely fall apart in the 2nd half and lose all semblance of discipline.
Quel surprise as they say in Calais.
We shouldn't really have too many issues against France or Scotland. Both defences looked poor at times.
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
Hardly conclusive!! The result of the game is done and dusted now, but if it was a knock on then that is two decisions the TMO got wrong which is of a wider concern.
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
Hardly conclusive!! The result of the game is done and dusted now, but if it was a knock on then that is two decisions the TMO got wrong which is of a wider concern.
And still they whinge.
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
Hardly conclusive!! The result of the game is done and dusted now, but if it was a knock on then that is two decisions the TMO got wrong which is of a wider concern.
And still they whinge.
Sigh. Not whinging at all, as the play went back for a penalty which Patchell kicked, so had it been try and the scores remained the same, Wales would have still lost.
Take who was playing out of it yesterday, J just think it is pretty alarming for the game in general that a TMO in an important game can mess things up the way he did.
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I think Wales have strangely benefited hugely from the injuries they've had. It's forced Gatland into picking players that play a far more effective style of Rugby.
For instance Patchell should easily be their first choice fly half regardless of injuries.
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Hopefully Nathan Hughes will be back in two weeks time and Simmonds can come off the bench. Noticeable yesterday when Simmonds got injured that Robshaw for all his qualities is not a no 8
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
I called that last night.
Tom, the entire thing was full of marginal calls and was almost impossible to judge with any certainty either way. They decided to focus on the grounding but if that had been fine I suspect they might have had a proper look at the knock on.
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
I called that last night.
Tom, the entire thing was full of marginal calls and was almost impossible to judge with any certainty either way. They decided to focus on the grounding but if that had been fine I suspect they might have had a proper look at the knock on.
Maybe so Paul, but he had two looks at it and made the decision. It is a tough one, because unlike cricket, there are no additional definitive technologies like snicko, ball tracking etc. It's why integrating into football is going to be a bit tricky.
Anyway, it's coincidental now and the better side on the day won. The tournament moves on and although the standard isn't always of a high level it's still a great spectacle.
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Several Frenchies dropped after a night on the ale in Edinburgh after the loss to the Jocks.
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Conclusive evidence it was a knock on. Now will you Welshists shut up?
https://rugbyonslaught.com/update-enhanced-footage-shows-anscombe-try-disallowed-anyway/
For me, I wasn't sure, but, my mate called it 'No Try' straight away.
I suppose it was a case of 'What goes around, comes around' Wales scored a try after a 2 yard forward pass vrs Scotland
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That's something that's bugged me throughout the first two rounds, and on the odd occasions I've watched Super Rugby. It seems the refs barely bother to penalise a forward pass these days unless it's something Tom Brady and his ilk would be proud of. I'm all for a flowing game, but rules are rules...
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That's something that's bugged me throughout the first two rounds, and on the odd occasions I've watched Super Rugby. It seems the refs barely bother to penalise a forward pass these days unless it's something Tom Brady and his ilk would be proud of. I'm all for a flowing game, but rules are rules...
Southern Hemisphere teams, especially New Zealand, are notorious for it. Hardly ever get pulled up either.
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This isn't a dig at Tom, just a general moan. I do wish some of the bitter Welsh fuckers that I would class as proper friends would let it go. I am still getting "it isn't fair, isn't it" text messages now.
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This isn't a dig at Tom, just a general moan. I do wish some of the bitter Welsh fuckers that I would class as proper friends would let it go. I am still getting "it isn't fair, isn't it" text messages now.
Don't expect those to stop any time soon. Many fans are only just about getting over Andy Haden's dive in 1978.
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This isn't a dig at Tom, just a general moan. I do wish some of the bitter Welsh fuckers that I would class as proper friends would let it go. I am still getting "it isn't fair, isn't it" text messages now.
Don't expect those to stop any time soon. Many fans are only just about getting over Andy Haden's dive in 1978.
The penalty according to the referee was given for an infringement on Oliver and nothing to do with the Haden dive. There's some great accounts of that game & some great footage, Wales led 10-0 at one point.
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That's something that's bugged me throughout the first two rounds, and on the odd occasions I've watched Super Rugby. It seems the refs barely bother to penalise a forward pass these days unless it's something Tom Brady and his ilk would be proud of. I'm all for a flowing game, but rules are rules...
laws are laws ;)
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This isn't a dig at Tom, just a general moan. I do wish some of the bitter Welsh fuckers that I would class as proper friends would let it go. I am still getting "it isn't fair, isn't it" text messages now.
Don't expect those to stop any time soon. Many fans are only just about getting over Andy Haden's dive in 1978.
The penalty according to the referee was given for an infringement on Oliver and nothing to do with the Haden dive. There's some great accounts of that game & some great footage, Wales led 10-0 at one point.
Another footnote about that game - Brian McKechnie was sub for New Zealand in that game and kicked the penalty that resulted from that controversial incident. He was a dual international and a few years later it was him who faced the infamous underarm delivery batting against Australia.
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One for Tom - https://mobile.twitter.com/welshbollocks/status/964917087218077696?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Smiley thingy
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One for Tom - https://mobile.twitter.com/welshbollocks/status/964917087218077696?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Smiley thingy
Looking at that photo, Anthony Watson touched it down ;D
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Big weekend, I fancy Wales to beat Ireland especially with Biggar back in the side, can’t see it being a classic more of an aerial bombardment from both sides.
Can’t see anything other than a reasonably comfortable win for England, obviously Laidlaw will win the most chatty man award, I wonder if he ever shuts up?
Italy to get hammered again.
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I think Scotland away will be very tough.
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It will, I think how England start will be key, they’ve been off to flyers the first 2 games and it’s down to Scotland to respond at home.
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It will, I think how England start will be key, they’ve been off to flyers the first 2 games and it’s down to Scotland to respond at home.
Not sure it will be that uncomfortable for England to be honest. I can see England dominating the set piece and up front, starving the Scots of any good ball. England by a couple of scores.
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It will, I think how England start will be key, they’ve been off to flyers the first 2 games and it’s down to Scotland to respond at home.
Not sure it will be that uncomfortable for England to be honest. I can see England dominating the set piece and up front, starving the Scots of any good ball. England by a couple of scores.
That's how I see it going. Our pack should be too strong for Scotland, and the line speed of the defence should suffocate them. We'll need to be below par for Scotland to get close.
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I think Scotland at home have shown they can be very good. We’re also looking a bit plodding at the moment, we need to up our game.
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England by 10+ at the weekend. I think the Irish will win as well. So should be a Grand Slam shoot out at Twickenham as long as we don't catch the French on a mad good day.
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England by 10+ at the weekend. I think the Irish will win as well. So should be a Grand Slam shoot out at Twickenham as long as we don't catch the French on a mad good day.
That hasn’t happened in about 15 years and won’t happen this year either.
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England by 10+ at the weekend. I think the Irish will win as well. So should be a Grand Slam shoot out at Twickenham as long as we don't catch the French on a mad good day.
That hasn’t happened in about 15 years and won’t happen this year either.
The last match shoot out or us sticking a few on them up there? We Won by 20 three or four years ago. And if the Irish win tomorrow I would fancy them to beat the jocks at home in the next game.
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England by 10+ at the weekend. I think the Irish will win as well. So should be a Grand Slam shoot out at Twickenham as long as we don't catch the French on a mad good day.
That hasn’t happened in about 15 years and won’t happen this year either.
8 times in the last 15 years, Jon.
I agree, though, this year could be a close one.
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The thing is this Scotland sidis a very different beast to the Cotter team of the last few years. It might well be that they up their game but if not they look very weak defending through midfield and JJ will punish them heavily if they haven't fixed that.
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They got walloped upfront by the Welsh as well.
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They did, but I think to an extent they bottled it. They are a completely different proposition at home.
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They did, but I think to an extent they bottled it. They are a completely different proposition at home.
In front of 20,000 screaming school children.
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Didn’t see anything Wales or England would be bothered about with France.
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Didn’t see anything Wales or England would be bothered about with France.
For French rugby look at English football over the last 15-20 years, squads full of 'proven' foreigners on huge money, minimal youth investment and a clear club before country attitude. They've dropped quicker than I expected but the writing has been on the wall for a while now. The problem is that it's in the forwards where they're weak, and that's hard to fix.
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What is the contract like with Italy and the Six Nations? They haven't improved in 18 years, they are now on a record run of defeats, surely there's an argument to kick them out? Or introduce promotion/relegation with a second tier competition? Perhaps over a two year period to give new teams more of a crack.
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Too much investment has gone into Italian rugby for them to be dropped. Teams in the Pro 14 and the national coach (who came on a pretty penny from Harlequins) as a sort of auxiliary Director of Rugby at those clubs as well as coaching the national side. Italy aren't going anywhere fast.
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Be nice to see some return on all that investment. I'd be pleased if they were competitive but progress is non-existent at the moment.
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Italy have a decent coach with O'Shea, so they've got that bit right.
I don't think anyone before had a game plan, they just turned up and played. Once in a while it would work and they'd win a game and they'd think all was OK.
If they'd followed the Argentina blue print they'd be mixing it with the big boys more regularly.
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Good game at the aviva.
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Scotland giving England a scare here.
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This has heartbreak for scotland written all over it.
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As I suspected Scotland have been excellent and England have been fucking awful.
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Scotland are better in every department they could run in another 3 or 4 second half, England have been bsolutely shit.
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Yup. I suspected this might happen.
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Me and AD dangerously close to getting our heads kicked in celebrating every time Scotland get the ball in a Sheffield pub... but it's worth it!
Mon Scotland!
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Very well done to Scotland, completely deserved that.
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Love it Scotland.
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Fucking yaldi!
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Well deserved win for Scotland, first win against England in ten years.
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So may errors at the breakdown, did England win 1 turnover?
Well done Scotland, they’ll still finish second bottom mind.
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Blah blah blah Scotland deserved to win etc. Were both the disallowed tries justified? Genuine question as I was in loud pub so it was hard to realise what the problem was. Knock on looked harsh to me, seemed to be part of the tackle.
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I am a staunch England fan, but Scotland deserved that every day of the week. This might actually be of value to England, because you can only play poorly and win for so long. Jones had been brilliant for England but he needs to reassess how we're playing now.
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Yes but should the tries have been disallowed?
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That was the worst performance by far under Jones, it’s a shame it’s a 2 week break now until the frogs, he has to get a reaction from the entire team.
As much as I admire Owens, he made a few poor calls today, the knock on was fair enough but I fail to see what was wrong with Lawes stealing the ball at the breakdown that led to the other try?
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Not at home and didn't get chance to see it but from what I've heard there were a number of big problems today that have been hinted at but it was a shock that they all hit at once.
Hopefully it will lead to a bit of a rethink on a couple of decisions (the scrum half one at the top of the list).
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So basically one or both tries should have stood and then you're looking at 22-20 with a good 20 minutes to go.
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Yes, but I think for England's development towards the World Cup we need to learn performing like this isn't going to do it. Losing will benefit us more than winning if we acknowledge where we're going wrong. We deserved to lose today and we lost.
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
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England has three key area of failure yesterday. We were rubbish at the breakdown, Scotland kept turning us over. Our tackling was poor, Scotland kept breaking tackles. We didn't appear to have any real attacking shape and aligned to that the bench didn't bring much improvement when players were replaced.
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Yes but should the tries have been disallowed?
Yes
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England has three key area of failure yesterday. We were rubbish at the breakdown, Scotland kept turning us over. Our tackling was poor, Scotland kept breaking tackles. We didn't appear to have any real attacking shape and aligned to that the bench didn't bring much improvement when players were replaced.
When England got on top in the second half, their discipline was terrible and prevented them from turning the domination into points.
Specifically, Laws kicking the ball out of the scrum half's hands and Underhill's shoulder assault.
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Too much isolated running which meant they bossed the breakdown.
Scotland were very good I thought, and from an English perspective a bloody nose once in a while could actually do more good than harm.
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England has three key area of failure yesterday. We were rubbish at the breakdown, Scotland kept turning us over. Our tackling was poor, Scotland kept breaking tackles. We didn't appear to have any real attacking shape and aligned to that the bench didn't bring much improvement when players were replaced.
not pointing fingers but it's interesting that this was a huge problem under Lancaster and has happened again almost as soon as Robshaw is back at 7. I have a lot of time for Robshaw but if you don't play him at 6 you don't play him at all. Square pegs to get as many of his favourites in the pitch at once isn't something I expected on Jones but I right now his inability to pick 2 from 3 in the 2nd row is costing us at the breakdown.
The lack of impact from the bench is no shock to me, I feared that might be the case, if you go with his term of finishers I'd say George adds dynamism at the cost of some control (which is fine), Nowell is busy and offers a different type of threat from the wing and T'eo can have some impact as a wrecking ball but the rest of the bench feels like substitutes and it shows. It's chalk and cheese to the bench we had a year or so back when we were bringing on people like Hughes, Mako, Sinckler and making tired players face aggressive dynamic runners from all angles. It's was no coincidence just how strongly we ended games and this squad just doesn't have the gas for it.
I've still not seen the full game but I did watch the last 20 because I thought that was where the real England would've won this game and it was as predictable and easy to defend as I expected. He needs to do something and if nothing else a 9 with pace and vision (rather than so/so passer with a good kicking game) could come in and generate some buzz.
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
I think Nigel Owens got both decisions right, but the way he dealt with the Launchbury one was questionable. Launchbury's knee touched the floor when he was competing for the ball at a ruck, which meant he was no longer supporting his weight and that is a penalty (albeit quite a harsh one considering what goes on at most rucks). Owens should have called the penalty there and then and given the Scots the penalty advantage, but he did neither and only called it back for a penalty after the pass had been intercepted. It was the right decision, but he had not made it clear that it was a penalty and an advantage was being played, so it was questionable.
The knock on was clear, if again, unfortunate.
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England has three key area of failure yesterday. We were rubbish at the breakdown, Scotland kept turning us over. Our tackling was poor, Scotland kept breaking tackles. We didn't appear to have any real attacking shape and aligned to that the bench didn't bring much improvement when players were replaced.
not pointing fingers but it's interesting that this was a huge problem under Lancaster and has happened again almost as soon as Robshaw is back at 7. I have a lot of time for Robshaw but if you don't play him at 6 you don't play him at all. Square pegs to get as many of his favourites in the pitch at once isn't something I expected on Jones but I right now his inability to pick 2 from 3 in the 2nd row is costing us at the breakdown.
The lack of impact from the bench is no shock to me, I feared that might be the case, if you go with his term of finishers I'd say George adds dynamism at the cost of some control (which is fine), Nowell is busy and offers a different type of threat from the wing and T'eo can have some impact as a wrecking ball but the rest of the bench feels like substitutes and it shows. It's chalk and cheese to the bench we had a year or so back when we were bringing on people like Hughes, Mako, Sinckler and making tired players face aggressive dynamic runners from all angles. It's was no coincidence just how strongly we ended games and this squad just doesn't have the gas for it.
I've still not seen the full game but I did watch the last 20 because I thought that was where the real England would've won this game and it was as predictable and easy to defend as I expected. He needs to do something and if nothing else a 9 with pace and vision (rather than so/so passer with a good kicking game) could come in and generate some buzz.
Agree with that Paul. I too like Robshaw and think he is a very good 6, but he struggles a bit at 7 when he comes up against players who are good at the breakdown like Watson and Barclay. having seen him play for the Ospreys for a few years before he moved to Bath, I still think Underhill will be the long term choice at 7, but it seems a position that England have struggled with for some time now.
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
I think Nigel Owens got both decisions right, but the way he dealt with the Launchbury one was questionable. Launchbury's knee touched the floor when he was competing for the ball at a ruck, which meant he was no longer supporting his weight and that is a penalty (albeit quite a harsh one considering what goes on at most rucks). Owens should have called the penalty there and then and given the Scots the penalty advantage, but he did neither and only called it back for a penalty after the pass had been intercepted. It was the right decision, but he had not made it clear that it was a penalty and an advantage was being played, so it was questionable.
The knock on was clear, if again, unfortunate.
The bold bit is important because, for me, Barclay supported his own weight in about a third of breakdowns he contested and got away with it repeatedly.
I've finished watching it now btw, I agree Owens can say he got both decisions right but I don't think he can legitimately claim to have followed the laws consistently at the breakdown.
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
I think Nigel Owens got both decisions right, but the way he dealt with the Launchbury one was questionable. Launchbury's knee touched the floor when he was competing for the ball at a ruck, which meant he was no longer supporting his weight and that is a penalty (albeit quite a harsh one considering what goes on at most rucks). Owens should have called the penalty there and then and given the Scots the penalty advantage, but he did neither and only called it back for a penalty after the pass had been intercepted. It was the right decision, but he had not made it clear that it was a penalty and an advantage was being played, so it was questionable.
The knock on was clear, if again, unfortunate.
The bold bit is important because, for me, Barclay supported his own weight in about a third of breakdowns he contested and got away with it repeatedly.
I've finished watching it now btw, I agree Owens can say he got both decisions right but I don't think he can legitimately claim to have followed the laws consistently at the breakdown.
That's the frustrating thing with the breakdown in the modern game Paul, it just seems to be refereed so haphazardly. It is probably considered to dangerous now, but old fashioned rucking meant there weren't really the problems we see now. By the letter of the law it was a penalty, but I still think Launchbury was unlucky to get pinged seeing what goes on at most rucks and that Nigel Owens refereed the situation badly.
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The current ruck laws make the game safer and allow the ball to be recycled quicker and more often.
However, it’s bloody complicated and completely opposite at times to my days getting kicked about on the wrong side of a ruck.
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The current ruck laws make the game safer and allow the ball to be recycled quicker and more often.
However, it’s bloody complicated and completely opposite at times to my days getting kicked about on the wrong side of a ruck.
As I said old fashioned rucking was dangerous and as you say, it was an unpleasant experience when you got caught on the wrong side and got the doormat treatment. There are just so many sharp practices in and around the breakdown now though. One of my pet peeves is the tactic used by the likes of O'Mahony and others where they make no effort to initially play the ball and go beyond it with their elbows on the floor, waiting for the hit to take them back on to it. Highly illegal tactic, but hardly ever punished.
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
I think Nigel Owens got both decisions right, but the way he dealt with the Launchbury one was questionable. Launchbury's knee touched the floor when he was competing for the ball at a ruck, which meant he was no longer supporting his weight and that is a penalty (albeit quite a harsh one considering what goes on at most rucks). Owens should have called the penalty there and then and given the Scots the penalty advantage, but he did neither and only called it back for a penalty after the pass had been intercepted. It was the right decision, but he had not made it clear that it was a penalty and an advantage was being played, so it was questionable.
The knock on was clear, if again, unfortunate.
The bold bit is important because, for me, Barclay supported his own weight in about a third of breakdowns he contested and got away with it repeatedly.
I've finished watching it now btw, I agree Owens can say he got both decisions right but I don't think he can legitimately claim to have followed the laws consistently at the breakdown.
Thanks for clearing that up, guys.
Just watched it again, though. Launchburys knee touched the ground before he challenged, but, was off when he went for ball (I thought that was OK), Owens told him to release, which he did, pass intersepted for 'Try'
Surely that's wrong?
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
I think Nigel Owens got both decisions right, but the way he dealt with the Launchbury one was questionable. Launchbury's knee touched the floor when he was competing for the ball at a ruck, which meant he was no longer supporting his weight and that is a penalty (albeit quite a harsh one considering what goes on at most rucks). Owens should have called the penalty there and then and given the Scots the penalty advantage, but he did neither and only called it back for a penalty after the pass had been intercepted. It was the right decision, but he had not made it clear that it was a penalty and an advantage was being played, so it was questionable.
The knock on was clear, if again, unfortunate.
The bold bit is important because, for me, Barclay supported his own weight in about a third of breakdowns he contested and got away with it repeatedly.
I've finished watching it now btw, I agree Owens can say he got both decisions right but I don't think he can legitimately claim to have followed the laws consistently at the breakdown.
Thanks for clearing that up, guys.
Just watched it again, though. Launchburys knee touched the ground before he challenged, but, was off when he went for ball (I thought that was OK), Owens told him to release, which he did, pass intersepted for 'Try'
Surely that's wrong?
If his knee touches the ground, he is no longer supporting his weight and it is technically a penalty at that point. You normally see referees award the penalty at that point, but call advantage if the attacking team retain possession, only to call it back if they feel no advantage has been gained. You also often hear referees shout "release" or "you've lost it now" to players in Launchbury's position and as long as they do stop competing, then play goes on with no penalty awarded. The fact that Nigel Owens didn't do any of the above was the problem really.
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Because his knee touched he's effectively made himself out of play and has to exit the ruck before he can go back in to compete (much like the tackled player releasing the ball or the tackler letting go of the player and standing up before they can compete. The issue I have with it is that Owens calls 'lost now' and Launchbury stops competing so they get the pass away, it's not launchbury's fault the pass is shit and you never see a mistake covered for like that normally, His defence that the damage was done is just about on the side of the law but 99 times out of a hundred if the ref says it's lost and the defender backs away it's not going back as a pen if the ball gets lost, the inconsistency is the problem.
If you going to go back for stuff that is marginal like that then you have to do it regularly. For example (i'll link the video I'm going from so the times make sense):
If you go to the 2nd scottish try (about 3 minutes). I believe the clearout on Farrell is around the neck, if they go back and look at that it's probably a penalty and that gets disallowed but because no one bothered to check they get the points.
On top of that is the Ryan Wilson citing for scratching at Hughes eyes. - https://twitter.com/bbcrugbyunion/status/967685739071721473
Owens has built his reputation of 'grow up and get on with it' which i normally agree with but when it's around the eyes you really have to check because if his little finger makes contact with the eye then he has to do more than a slap on the wrist.
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Because his knee touched he's effectively made himself out of play and has to exit the ruck before he can go back in to compete (much like the tackled player releasing the ball or the tackler letting go of the player and standing up before they can compete. The issue I have with it is that Owens calls 'lost now' and Launchbury stops competing so they get the pass away, it's not launchbury's fault the pass is shit and you never see a mistake covered for like that normally, His defence that the damage was done is just about on the side of the law but 99 times out of a hundred if the ref says it's lost and the defender backs away it's not going back as a pen if the ball gets lost, the inconsistency is the problem.
If you going to go back for stuff that is marginal like that then you have to do it regularly. For example (i'll link the video I'm going from so the times make sense):
If you go to the 2nd scottish try (about 3 minutes). I believe the clearout on Farrell is around the neck, if they go back and look at that it's probably a penalty and that gets disallowed but because no one bothered to check they get the points.
On top of that is the Ryan Wilson citing for scratching at Hughes eyes. - https://twitter.com/bbcrugbyunion/status/967685739071721473
Owens has built his reputation of 'grow up and get on with it' which i normally agree with but when it's around the eyes you really have to check because if his little finger makes contact with the eye then he has to do more than a slap on the wrist.
Agree Paul and there were some decisions around the breakdown in the Ireland v Wales game that were baffling as well. I would never accuse a referee of bias or deliberate cheating, but as someone said on a blog I was reading yesterday, it is sometimes as if referees have decided which team are on top at a point in the game and then only start looking for offences by the team they consider are under the cosh at the time. It can be highly frustrating as a constant stream of penalties can influence a game so much.
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Because his knee touched he's effectively made himself out of play and has to exit the ruck before he can go back in to compete (much like the tackled player releasing the ball or the tackler letting go of the player and standing up before they can compete. The issue I have with it is that Owens calls 'lost now' and Launchbury stops competing so they get the pass away, it's not launchbury's fault the pass is shit and you never see a mistake covered for like that normally, His defence that the damage was done is just about on the side of the law but 99 times out of a hundred if the ref says it's lost and the defender backs away it's not going back as a pen if the ball gets lost, the inconsistency is the problem.
If you going to go back for stuff that is marginal like that then you have to do it regularly. For example (i'll link the video I'm going from so the times make sense):
If you go to the 2nd scottish try (about 3 minutes). I believe the clearout on Farrell is around the neck, if they go back and look at that it's probably a penalty and that gets disallowed but because no one bothered to check they get the points.
On top of that is the Ryan Wilson citing for scratching at Hughes eyes. - https://twitter.com/bbcrugbyunion/status/967685739071721473
Owens has built his reputation of 'grow up and get on with it' which i normally agree with but when it's around the eyes you really have to check because if his little finger makes contact with the eye then he has to do more than a slap on the wrist.
Agree Paul and there were some decisions around the breakdown in the Ireland v Wales game that were baffling as well. I would never accuse a referee of bias or deliberate cheating, but as someone said on a blog I was reading yesterday, it is sometimes as if referees have decided which team are on top at a point in the game and then only start looking for offences by the team they consider are under the cosh at the time. It can be highly frustrating as a constant stream of penalties can influence a game so much.
I thought everyone knew Nigel Owens played for the other side ;)
I think you're right re once a team is on top the team felt to be under the cosh will be penalised more, it certainly looked that way, England weren't without their faults but Scotland got away with far too much at the breakdown.
We've 2 southern hemisphere referees, assistants & TMOs for our remaining fixtures, hopefully controversy free.
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Because his knee touched he's effectively made himself out of play and has to exit the ruck before he can go back in to compete (much like the tackled player releasing the ball or the tackler letting go of the player and standing up before they can compete. The issue I have with it is that Owens calls 'lost now' and Launchbury stops competing so they get the pass away, it's not launchbury's fault the pass is shit and you never see a mistake covered for like that normally, His defence that the damage was done is just about on the side of the law but 99 times out of a hundred if the ref says it's lost and the defender backs away it's not going back as a pen if the ball gets lost, the inconsistency is the problem.
If you going to go back for stuff that is marginal like that then you have to do it regularly. For example (i'll link the video I'm going from so the times make sense):
If you go to the 2nd scottish try (about 3 minutes). I believe the clearout on Farrell is around the neck, if they go back and look at that it's probably a penalty and that gets disallowed but because no one bothered to check they get the points.
On top of that is the Ryan Wilson citing for scratching at Hughes eyes. - https://twitter.com/bbcrugbyunion/status/967685739071721473
Owens has built his reputation of 'grow up and get on with it' which i normally agree with but when it's around the eyes you really have to check because if his little finger makes contact with the eye then he has to do more than a slap on the wrist.
Agree Paul and there were some decisions around the breakdown in the Ireland v Wales game that were baffling as well. I would never accuse a referee of bias or deliberate cheating, but as someone said on a blog I was reading yesterday, it is sometimes as if referees have decided which team are on top at a point in the game and then only start looking for offences by the team they consider are under the cosh at the time. It can be highly frustrating as a constant stream of penalties can influence a game so much.
I thought everyone knew Nigel Owens played for the other side ;)
I think you're right re once a team is on top the team felt to be under the cosh will be penalised more, it certainly looked that way, England weren't without their faults but Scotland got away with far too much at the breakdown.
We've 2 southern hemisphere referees, assistants & TMOs for our remaining fixtures, hopefully controversy free.
As a coach, player or fan, all you want is consistency when it comes to a referee. If the referee is going to ping both sides for holding on at the breakdown or going off their feet then fair enough, but when it seems as though strict refereeing in a certain area is only being applied to one side then it becomes highly frustrating.
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That's where almost all the anger towards refs in rugby comes from. The overall standard is usually very high but it is a bit too easy for refs to become accustomed to a problem and just assume it's carrying on rather than reffing what they see. Collapsing scrums are the best example, if one prop is clearly struggling he'll get pinged for every collapse even if he's completely legal because that's easier than looking for the arm bind or the drill-in.
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Sheffield Wednesday forum is that way lads -----> ;)
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Scotland deserved win after first half, but, I fell that Nige got a major decision wrong.
Danny Care should have been allowed to touch down then he should have gone to the TMO. I don't think Launchbury should have been penalised. That would have put England level and I'm pretty sure we'd have gone on to win.
In my defence I was a winger/full back so maybe a forward could clarify that one.
I think Nigel Owens got both decisions right, but the way he dealt with the Launchbury one was questionable. Launchbury's knee touched the floor when he was competing for the ball at a ruck, which meant he was no longer supporting his weight and that is a penalty (albeit quite a harsh one considering what goes on at most rucks). Owens should have called the penalty there and then and given the Scots the penalty advantage, but he did neither and only called it back for a penalty after the pass had been intercepted. It was the right decision, but he had not made it clear that it was a penalty and an advantage was being played, so it was questionable.
The knock on was clear, if again, unfortunate.
The bold bit is important because, for me, Barclay supported his own weight in about a third of breakdowns he contested and got away with it repeatedly.
I've finished watching it now btw, I agree Owens can say he got both decisions right but I don't think he can legitimately claim to have followed the laws consistently at the breakdown.
Thanks for clearing that up, guys.
Just watched it again, though. Launchburys knee touched the ground before he challenged, but, was off when he went for ball (I thought that was OK), Owens told him to release, which he did, pass intersepted for 'Try'
Surely that's wrong?
If his knee touches the ground, he is no longer supporting his weight and it is technically a penalty at that point. You normally see referees award the penalty at that point, but call advantage if the attacking team retain possession, only to call it back if they feel no advantage has been gained. You also often hear referees shout "release" or "you've lost it now" to players in Launchbury's position and as long as they do stop competing, then play goes on with no penalty awarded. The fact that Nigel Owens didn't do any of the above was the problem really.
Cheers Tom, That was pretty much my point.
I played winger/fullback so all this rough stuff sort of went over my head :)
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Sheffield Wednesday forum is that way lads -----> ;)
I'll post a copy of my letter in a bit. :P
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To be honest I'm not that concerned with the detail of the decisions. We deserved to lose and we lost, we need to work on bringing our game back to a good level. We've been a bit plodding of late.
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I don't disagree tbh, I just think there was some pretty harsh calls against us as well, and without those we might well have scrapped through, as we have a few times recently. The worst thing is that there were flashes against Italy of us having got out of that funk and kicked on, and they've evaporated now, Simmonds already looks like a huge loss.
The things to learn, for me:
We need more dynamism on the bench, Wiggo, T'eo and Nowell just aren't frightening as backs replacements and Underhill and Kruis aren't players to bring on in the last 20-25, the Front row options are decent enough though (and George is a perfect 'finisher').
The experiment with 3 locks is a failure, Robshaw back to 6 and Underhill or Simmonds in at 7 has to happen.
We need to learn to deal with teams who go really aggressive at the breakdown, both defeats under Jones have come from teams denying us good possession by fighting on the floor.
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No Underhill or Knowell this weekend for Le Crunch, Hartley also a potential doubt. Solomona & Daly come back in the squad.
Should be a cracking weekend again, can't really see the Jocks getting anything from Ireland and who knows if the French will turn up, I just hope a different England do.
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No Hartley.
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England team:
Starting XV
15 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 31 caps)
14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 32 caps)
13 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 11 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 56 caps) C
11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 16 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 43 caps)
9 Danny Care (Harlequins 79 caps)
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 47 caps) VC
2 Jamie George (Saracens 23 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 80 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 50 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 17 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 64 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 62 caps)
8 Nathan Hughes (Wasps 13 caps).
Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)
17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 54 caps)
18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins 8 caps)
19 James Haskell (Wasps 75 caps)
20 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 5 caps)
21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 29 caps)
22 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 38 caps)
23 Mike Brown (Harlequins 67 caps)
Mostly happy with that. Lawes or Itoje on the bench, Robshaw at 6 and Simmonds in at 7 and I reckon that's the best 15 we have available. I still don't like Wigglesworth being on the bench (he's a 9 that helps you control territory with his kicking game, that's useful in the first half but in the last 20 it goes against everything that has made this England team successful), I'd prefer Solomona to Brown and I'd love us to move on from Haskell but there's a lot more impact to bring on than there has been.
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No Hartley.
That strengthens the side IMO
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No Hartley.
That strengthens the side IMO
Well interestingly against the Jocks when he came off we slowed down and failed to build on the momentum we had, I get why Jones plays him for 60 minutes when and if we have a bench full of impact players to bring on in the final 15 or 20 but right now we don't so having a captain out there for 80 minutes will only benefit us I think.
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Whilst I still wouldn't have him in the team, I don't think that Hartley is the weak link that he used to be.
The change is laws at the ruck has made his style of play the preferred method (ie pick up ball, rumble forward a bit, contact with opponent, fall down)
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Brown dropped is pretty big news.
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Brown dropped is pretty big news.
He'd been struggling for fitness in the past week apparently and Daly is fit.
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Jones didn’t suggest it was to do with injury.
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Strange one, from man of the match to benched in the course of 4 weeks, he was mentioned in a fitness update a week ago but no mention of it today when starting 15 announced.
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Before the tournament started it was a discussion between brown and watson and longer term there's only 1 winner there. If an unbeaten 6n had been on the cards i thunk he may have stuck with the experience but now i suspect he's thinking towards the world cup. If simmonds gets 30mins at 7 then that will back the idea up nicely.
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Mon Scotland!
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We’re too laboured at the breakdown.
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Again, not good enough at breakdown.
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The backrow just doesn't work, Robshaw at 7 is a terrible choice.
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This is a poor game.
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Poor again.
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Awful, look laboured and without any sort of plan.
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Terrible performance, letting them slow everything down and leaving our backs with no space at all. As we were a few years back teams know that they can nullify us by smashing us at the breakdown.
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We’re badly lacking intensity and dynamism.
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That's a result of the breakdown, because it's an arm wrestle every time our timings in the backs are all wrong so we look totally flat. We need to start getting quick ball. Personally I'd take Itoje off, push Lawes forward and Robshaw to 6 and bring Haskell on at 7. He's not much of a 7 either but at least we might see a bit more fight in there. Itoje has been really poor for me.
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Also, this is why Hartley starting and George off the bench works better, Hartley would've been throwing himself into things today after the scotland game.
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Same again, no fucking intensity.
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Jones need to acknowledge the selection is not working.
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It so frustrating that he came in and saw the mistakes Lancaster had made and now 2 1/2 years later he's making them himself.
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After al lthe complaints, that's brilliant from Daly to put May away. We got a bit of quicker ball and suddenly looked a different team.
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Given their form that's a fucking disgusting performance, completely played into their hands by letting them slow the game down so easily.
Robshaw at 7 doesn't work, 3 2nd rows in the team isn't working (but i understand why he's tried it). The back row is killing us.
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It so frustrating that he came in and saw the mistakes Lancaster had made and now 2 1/2 years later he's making them himself.
Isn't that every England coach since SCW? In fact, the way we are playing at the moment is as turgid as we usually play in World Cup years, so Jones has seemingly hit the wall one year early. What's that plan apart from crash ball and box kicks?
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The difference is none of the other had 2 years of getting it right (in the main) before they hit the wall, they were indifferent all along.
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The only positive for me is that it’s happened early enough to correct before the World Cup. Also Jones comments post game at least show an awareness of the failings. Robshaw either plays 6 or he doesn’t play, Lawes either plays second row or he doesn’t play. The hard decisions need to be made now, no more square pegs in round holes. Also I like Te’o off the bench, but not from the start.
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Think it's got to be Lawes and Launchbuy at 4 & 5 vrs Ireland. Give Itoje a break.
baring injuries I think you'd have to look along the lines of:
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Sincler
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Simmonds
Backs I'd go with:
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Daly
12. T'eo
13. Slade
14. May
15. Watson
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Think it's got to be Lawes and Launchbuy at 4 & 5 vrs Ireland. Give Itoje a break.
baring injuries I think you'd have to look along the lines of:
1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Sincler
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Simmonds
Backs I'd go with:
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Daly
12. T'eo
13. Slade
14. May
15. Watson
Looking at the training squad:
Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Marcus Smith (Harlequins)*, Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).
Forwards
Don Armand (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).
I've blocked out all the ones I'd send home but I've left myself with a problem.
Mako, Hartley, Cole
Itoje, Launchbury
Robshaw, Simmonds, Armand
Care, Farrell
May, Te'o, Slade, Daly
Watson
That's the best starting line-up from that set, then:
Marler, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Haskell, Wigglesworth, XXXXXXX, Solomona
The issue is do you trust Slade and/or Daly as cover at 10? If you do then JJ gives you another strong carrier from the bench, if not then you have to put Ford on there.
Of that lot I'd prefer a running 9 on the bench (you may all be aware of this) and I don't think Haskell is suitable cover for the back row, I'd have kept Mercer in and started him, with Simmonds at 7 and Armand on the bench.
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Saturday is a huge game in the reign of Eddie Jones. If we fall flat again it's an indication of a major problem.
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Saturday is a huge game in the reign of Eddie Jones. If we fall flat again it's an indication of a major problem.
I think it depends a little, if he makes the same mistakes then I agree, if we lose but there's a clear sign that we're trying to do something different then it's not the end of the world. Losing a few games that force them to refocus on what worked well in 2018 is ok, if it happened in 2019 it would be a disaster, at least now we have time on our side to rebalance things before the World Cup.
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Saturday is a huge game in the reign of Eddie Jones. If we fall flat again it's an indication of a major problem.
I think it depends a little, if he makes the same mistakes then I agree, if we lose but there's a clear sign that we're trying to do something different then it's not the end of the world. Losing a few games that force them to refocus on what worked well in 2018 is ok, if it happened in 2019 it would be a disaster, at least now we have time on our side to rebalance things before the World Cup.
As if always seeming to play them around St Patrick's day wasn't enough for their motivation, we now have this video of EJ basically doing their team talk for them with his "scummy Irish" comments. They're going to be far more up for it than England that's for sure.
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Saturday is a huge game in the reign of Eddie Jones. If we fall flat again it's an indication of a major problem.
I think it depends a little, if he makes the same mistakes then I agree, if we lose but there's a clear sign that we're trying to do something different then it's not the end of the world. Losing a few games that force them to refocus on what worked well in 2018 is ok, if it happened in 2019 it would be a disaster, at least now we have time on our side to rebalance things before the World Cup.
As if always seeming to play them around St Patrick's day wasn't enough for their motivation, we now have this video of EJ basically doing their team talk for them with his "scummy Irish" comments. They're going to be far more up for it than England that's for sure.
The video is over 12 months old, it's hardly going to be new news to the Irish and if they need that to motivate themselves then England are going to win.
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Starting XV
15 Anthony Watson
14 Jonny May 13 Jonathan Joseph 12 Ben Te’o 11 Elliot Daly
10 Owen Farrell 9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Mako Vunipola 2 Dylan Hartley 3 Kyle Sinckler
4 Maro Itoje 5 George Kruis
6 Chris Robshaw 7 James Haskell 8 Sam Simmonds
Finishers
16 Jamie George 17 Joe Marler 18 Dan Cole 19 Joe Launchbury 20 Don Armand 21 Danny Care 22 George Ford 23 Mike Brown
The Good
Robshaw at 6
T'eo at 12
Watson staying at 15
The Bad
Sinckler starting - he's not a great scrummager and will be targeted now
Launchbury dropped - shocking decision
Haskell in ahead of Armand - that decision is entirely based on number of caps not, suitability, form or ability
Wigglesworth goes from 3 years out of the squad to being first choice in 3 games despite doing nothing of note in the previous 2 and actually slowing us down when we needed to become expansive. This seems to be based on him being completely wrong off the bench so he has to start instead
Solomona not in the 23
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Ford, Brown and Cole I can understand, but Wigglesworth defies all logic as does the dropping of Launchbury. I was reasonably confident of a reaction on Saturday from England, now less so I'm afraid.
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I totally get why they've dropped Cole, he's been poor for a while now, I just don't trust Sinckler in the scrum, I'd have dropped Cole out completely, started Williams and kept Sinckler on the bench.
At 9 he's made a problem for himself by ignoring the best 9 in the NH for 2 years. Robson should've been around the squad for ages as the 3rd, even if he wanted to stick with Youngs and Care on matchday. By not doing that he left himself with very little choice when Youngs got injured but to either admit the mistake or go for the only other option with any number of caps and he took the easy route. Once you've got Wigglesworth in there it obvious that his game just doesn't work as the guy to come off the bench as a finisher because he has no running game, is too passive at the breakdown to generate quick ball and doesn't have a big pass to skip outside a rush defence. despite everything I don't think he's a terrible player, in a team setup to play the right way his kicking game is superb and contributes massively to Sarries being able to dominate territory but it's a bit like signing a Gestede like striker and then playing no wingers and passing the ball to his feet with his back to goal.
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So going on history and the "England cycle", has Jones already reached the pull names out of a hat and hope something works phase?
I think this is also the phase where online commenters start listing whole XVs of world-beaters playing in the shires that would transform the team if only the head coach took his blinkers off.
Things don't usually end well from here.
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So going on history and the "England cycle", has Jones already reached the pull names out of a hat and hope something works phase?
I think this is also the phase where online commenters start listing whole XVs of world-beaters playing in the shires that would transform the team if only the head coach took his blinkers off.
Things don't usually end well from here.
I don't think so, I think he's still 90% right but he's got to open his eyes about a few things. Haskell, Cole and Brown are all on the way down, I don't think any of them fits in the matchday squad now. Wigglesworth can be added to the list as well. After that he's had 2 major choices to make, Ford or Farrell at 10 and Lawes or Itoje at 5. This 6N has been poor because he's not been able to make those decisions.
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If you want a name from the Shires then Olly Thorley could do a job.
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I do feel like we should be looking to get Daly into the midfield.
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That was a knock on by Kearney.
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This is shaping up to be a cakewalk for Ireland. At every contact, the England players are being knocked back like skittles.
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England have been fucking diabolical again.
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Tempting fate massively but I'm quite enjoying this
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Some odd decisions from the ref in the last few minutes, boring in by a tighthead being my favourite.
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England have been fucking diabolical again.
The whole tournament it's like they'd all rather be off doing something else.
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Some odd decisions from the ref in the last few minutes, boring in by a tighthead being my favourite.
real strange.
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Tempting fate massively but I'm quite enjoying this
No need to worry about tempting fate, you guys haven't even needed to actually start playing yet and have 3 tries!
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The difference in attitude and commitment between England today, and Ireland in a near identical situation this time last year is massive.
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England have been rubbish, but the referee has been atrocious.
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The ref has missed loads here but the biggie is that ringrose caught daly in the face with a hand or forearm, citing comjng for that i suspect.
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Dismal stuff. England need to look at some of these players now and move them on.
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Completely unacceptable performance today and six nations overall. With the resources available there is no way that England should be losing 3 games out of 5 ever.
There needs to be an honest assessment within English rugby. Firstly i'd be looking at getting rid of Gustard as defence coach, as the Wales game aside it has been embarrassing in this tournament.
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I totally get why they've dropped Cole, he's been poor for a while now, I just don't trust Sinckler in the scrum, I'd have dropped Cole out completely, started Williams and kept Sinckler on the bench.
Going back to this bit, Sinckler had a terrible time in the scrum, their loosehead was twisting his bind so his hand was underneath and pulling down and sinckler never adapted.
The ref was at fault for not spotting it and calling sinckler out for boring in - for anyone who doesn't know the front row this might not seem so bad but the only way you can bore in as a tighthead is to drop your outside shoulder and turn your hips out, the upshot of that is that your 2nd row can't drive so your scrum disintegrates and if you're not careful you can get badly hurt, no one would do it on purpose and it's very hard to do by mistake - but sinckler should've been pushing Hartley to ask the ref to check the bind and making sure the bind got mentioned after every scrum to create some doubt. The other 'trick' is to take a shorter bind yourself so when his arm goes underneath your binding on the ribs, if he carries on and it collapses it hurts him a lot more and is normally enough to put them off.
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6 weeks ago I sat and watched England in short sleeves in Rome huff and puff to victory over Italy. Today I wore my full length Canada Goose parka and froze my tits off, thankfully my seat is in the East stand so was sheltered from the wind.
What can you say about today? Better at the breakdown and every time we had quick ball we made chances. Individual discipline cost us right from the start Farrell being exhibit a for their first try which looked like Kearney knocked on but anyway. The referee was a disgrace, no other words for it, aided and abetted by Owens, everything was against England today not that they deserved anything. Itoje is over, Wigglesworth is over, Robshaw as well. We have completed the circle now, we are back to where we were when Lancaster was fired, 3 tests against the SpongeBobs before New Zealand and we could be looking at 7 straight defeats unless something changes dramatically.
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Itoje isn't over, he's not fully fit and the main effect is that he's head down run into the man when at his best he was picking a weak shoulder and off loading.
I agree in Wigglesworth and I'm starting to think Robshaw is cursed, whenever he becomes a key player for us we fall apart.
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Itoje is nowhere near over, he’s tired and out of form. England need to use this 6 Nations as a means to grow. We’ve been rubbish in the breakdown, in attacking strategy, in defence and we’ve lacked adaptability. There are some excellent England players, let’s start using them in the right way.
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Itoje has been shite all tournament, if he’s not fully fit why is he playing?
I’m not sure Hartley will be starting in SA either, he did some good work today but George has been snapping at his heels for a good while now, time to move on.
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Itoje has been shite all tournament, if he’s not fully fit why is he playing?
I’m not sure Hartley will be starting in SA either, he did some good work today but George has been snapping at his heels for a good while now, time to move on.
because Jones is falling into the trap lots of England managers have and sticking to the players he knows until he has no other choice.
I thought Hartley was ok today and he's definitely in the 23 (until Tommy Taylor can get back up to speed) so the question is whether you would rather start George and bring Hartley, which I think is a bad idea.
The main issue is that we're shy around the breakdown, it means we don't slow other teams down and get caught short in defence, and we can't do it back. Watch Wiggo from today, pretty much every ruck, for an hour, he'd dig it out, look up, put a hand on, look up again, then make a pass, 2-3 seconds after he should've. It's painful to watch.
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Itoje has been shite all tournament, if he’s not fully fit why is he playing?
I’m not sure Hartley will be starting in SA either, he did some good work today but George has been snapping at his heels for a good while now, time to move on.
I don’t disagree that Itoje has been poor this year, but it doesn’t mean he’s over.
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Bans after the Spain v Belgium fracas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43806957
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Bans after the Spain v Belgium fracas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43806957
No surprise but there's loads more to come from that story still. I suspect that ref will be permanently banned, the Romanian feedration are already under investigation and there's plenty of talk of the game being either replayed or the result being reversed. Of course the problem with replaying it now is that spain will be a significantly weaker side than they were.
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Interesting...
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43836215
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And in the least surprising rugby news in history.....
Billy Vuniopola is injured again.
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This one sounds a lot like the sort of injury you get by trying too hard when you're not fully fit. If so it's probably not that big a problem and may not rule him out of travelling, he'll miss the play offs though. Personally I think I'd just leave him home and set sarries to put him on a slower recovery cycle, no point rushing him back only to see him break down again. He needs to learn that he can't force himself through this.
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Interesting...
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43836215
A very good player and leader on the field.
There are a few rumblings over here from Super Rugby coaches about the way the All Blacks Management go about their business so it wouldn't surprises me to see more players doing this (especially from Wellington).
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Interesting...
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43836215
A very good player and leader on the field.
There are a few rumblings over here from Super Rugby coaches about the way the All Blacks Management go about their business so it wouldn't surprises me to see more players doing this (especially from Wellington).
English parents, so not a back door entry either.
All Blacks are apparently livid
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England squad for South Africa Tour
Backs
Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) *
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Forwards
Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)
Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
Cipriani, Robson and Willis all in on the back of a brilliant season for the 3 of them, Care and Wigglesworth out. Shields included so it looks like he's go the early release we were hoping for. No representatives from Gloucester is pretty harsh given the season they've had, Saints less so. I'm surprised They haven't taken Cokanasiga, he's been brilliant since he came back from injury, given he's playing for a team that were dead and buried by Christmas. I also think they've made a mistake by taking Four 10s because the midfield looks a bit imbalanced now.
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Shields has got an early release (it was on the news over here tonight) and it's funny how much the Kiwi's are complaining about him choosing and going to play for England.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/103803711/nz-rugby-will-by-special-exception-allow-brad-shields-to-be-selected-for-england
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I wonder how close Joe Simmonds was to being called up?
In fairness probably much to early yet, but looked very impressive in his Exeter appearances.
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I wonder how close Joe Simmonds was to being called up?
In fairness probably much to early yet, but looked very impressive in his Exeter appearances.
I'd put him ahead of Redpath (who's been called up to get a cameo and stop him going to Scotland) and Lozowski. In truth after Farrell and Cipriani I don't think there's much between the next 5-6 options (you can add Marcus Smith and Billy Burns to the list at least).
Nathan Earle is the really strange one for me though, I just don't rate him at all, he's got pace but no rugby brain at all and he seems to have been 'worked out' this season, it's a joke to have him ahead of people like Wade and Cokanasiga, I'd have 4-5 others ahead as well.
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I wonder how close Joe Simmonds was to being called up?
In fairness probably much to early yet, but looked very impressive in his Exeter appearances.
I'd put him ahead of Redpath (who's been called up to get a cameo and stop him going to Scotland) and Lozowski. In truth after Farrell and Cipriani I don't think there's much between the next 5-6 options (you can add Marcus Smith and Billy Burns to the list at least).
Nathan Earle is the really strange one for me though, I just don't rate him at all, he's got pace but no rugby brain at all and he seems to have been 'worked out' this season, it's a joke to have him ahead of people like Wade and Cokanasiga, I'd have 4-5 others ahead as well.
Forgot about Marcus Smith.
Nathan Earle, I only catch highlights on games so it's tough to judge at times.
Christian Wade is no doubt an excellent try scorer, but, for some reason Eddie doesn't fancy him, same can be said with Roko, too.
Going back to Joe Simmonds. I always thought Steenson was excellent, so to keep him out JS must have something
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Just checked this Summer's fixtures.
So... Scotland beat England and Australia and take New Zealand to the wire, and our reward is glamour fixtures against America, Canada and Argentina?
FFS.
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Just checked this Summer's fixtures.
So... Scotland beat England and Australia and take New Zealand to the wire, and our reward is glamour fixtures against America, Canada and Argentina?
FFS.
Argentina will be a good game.
Forgot about Marcus Smith.
Nathan Earle, I only catch highlights on games so it's tough to judge at times.
Christian Wade is no doubt an excellent try scorer, but, for some reason Eddie doesn't fancy him, same can be said with Roko, too.
Going back to Joe Simmonds. I always thought Steenson was excellent, so to keep him out JS must have something
Roko is one of the '4-5 others' I'd have ahead of Earle, I'd also have had Tom Collins, Jason Woodward (although he's a full back not a wing), Ollie Woodburn and Josh Bassett ahead of him.
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Just checked this Summer's fixtures.
So... Scotland beat England and Australia and take New Zealand to the wire, and our reward is glamour fixtures against America, Canada and Argentina?
FFS.
Argentina will be a good game.
Forgot about Marcus Smith.
Nathan Earle, I only catch highlights on games so it's tough to judge at times.
Christian Wade is no doubt an excellent try scorer, but, for some reason Eddie doesn't fancy him, same can be said with Roko, too.
Going back to Joe Simmonds. I always thought Steenson was excellent, so to keep him out JS must have something
Roko is one of the '4-5 others' I'd have ahead of Earle, I'd also have had Tom Collins, Jason Woodward (although he's a full back not a wing), Ollie Woodburn and Josh Bassett ahead of him.
Woodward has had a great season and I would have liked to see Ludlow given a go. He gets through a ton of work every week.
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England have picked up where they left off in 6 Nations at the moment, they’re getting battered.
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England kids have played 2 won 2 in the U20 championship, there have been some really impressive performances as well. Marcus Smith scored a brilliant try this afternoon - https://www.worldrugby.org/u20/video/339805
Fraser Dingwall at 13 and Henry Walker at Hooker at the 2 I think are really interesting here, neither are quite ready to step up but they look like they could be special. Dingwall reminds me a lot of Trinder at this age group and Walker is a proper modern hooker in that he could easily play back row. Curry, Smith, Earl and Ibitoye are all great as well, but they've been on the radar for a while whereas the other 2 really have come on in the last few months.
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NZ v France game has turned on a very poor decision by the Ref to bin a French player for a high tackle that replays showed never happened.
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France are back to full strength but NZ are ripping them apart
All Black subs are making the difference
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England really need a statement performance today.
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Great start.
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The penny seems to have dropped with Jones that England were at their best under him when they attacked and tried to play expansively. We’re slaughtering the Boks at the moment.
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South Africa’s defence is awful. They’ve got no answer to the pace of May, Brown and Daly.
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Unfortunately our defence is probably worse
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Two rubbish errors from Itoje and Daly have let them back in the game.
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Oh dear talk about undoing all the good work.
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After a great start, all composure and disciplin has completely gone. Only one side gonna win this and its not us
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Well, that was a half of two halves
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Indeed. England’s game management has gone. This is a legacy of poor performances eventually turning into defeats over the last 12 months. They look like a team who don’t know how to win, whereas 18 months ago they looked like a team who didn’t know how to lose.
Players need to take some individual responsibility they’re defending very poorly.
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Simply not good enough. Atrocious defence, non existant discipline or composure, lack of leadership and character. 3-0 series defeat all but assured.
Jones and Gustard have to go. Fucking charlatans.
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Gustard is going.
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England lost this primarily through poor game management. After we’d blizted them we should have consolidated as soon as they scored the first try. That should have been the point when we realised we needed to nip any momentum shift in the bud. Then we put the subs on far too late, the players were out on their feet.
Eddie Jones needs to turn this round because that’s what 5 losses on the bounce now and we’re conceding an awful lot of points. At 24-3 up you shouldn’t be losing the game.
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The one positive is that at least they’re showing they understand they need to score tries again, that had drifted recently.
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I've been out most of the day so not had chance to post but, for me, the acid test of Jones now is whether he is willing to make the hard call and drop Brown and Robshaw who looked past it today and have both had poor seasons. If he's willing to start Cips and Robson then even better.
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I've been out most of the day so not had chance to post but, for me, the acid test of Jones now is whether he is willing to make the hard call and drop Brown and Robshaw who looked past it today and have both had poor seasons. If he's willing to start Cips and Robson then even better.
halfway I guess. Drops Robshaw which was clearly the right call and brings Cipriani into the squad, again the right call but still starting Brown on the wing and Spencer is still on the bench ahead of Robson.
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For the second match running, FRA v NZ has been killed as a contest by a harsh card decision.
French guy sent off after a contest for a high ball. His eyes never left the ball.
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England need to play with balance today. Use the attacking excellence they showed at times, but know when we have to step off.
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Right don’t blow the lead this week.
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Anyone cop the music playing whilst that brawl was ongoing? Bollocks the commentator just mentioned it.
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Right don’t blow the lead this week.
You were saying ;)
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Itoje was lucky that the officials’ attention was taken by Mako clipping the bloke round the ear.
Maro could have been binned for a kick at the scrum half
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The lack of discipline yet a fuckingen is truly astonishing
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Yep I’d start dropping players.
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Fucking penalties.
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This is so frustrating, the players are better than this but for whatever reason we just don't look like a team right now. We just need to hang on a steal a winner here to get a bit of belief back.
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This is so frustrating, the players are better than this but for whatever reason we just don't look like a team right now. We just need to hang on a steal a winner here to get a bit of belief back.
You've cut and pasted that from the *pick any team* Villa Match Thread.
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I think they’ve very much lost confidence and that has so much impact. Indiscipline and poor decision making.
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We are throwing the ball away so much.
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The biggest problem is that we're not getting front foot ball because we're letting them boss the breakdown, once you lose that it's hard build a platform, the first thing we need to do is start protecting the ball better by getting people to the tackle quicker and play for some possession for a while.
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That from Daly is indicative of the lack of calm thinking in the team.
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To give England a bit of a defence I'm not convinced that the ref is managing their defensive line well here, there have been plenty of times where we've had no space because their wide defenders are starting a yard or 2 too high which has forced us to kick away a lot. Ford being very willing to resort to the boot has just played into that. Hopefully Cipriani will mix things up better.
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Harsh yellow for Hughes for me, yes he stopped them getting quick ball away but it was 20 yards inside their half and no real break was on.
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He deserved it for stupidity.
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Piss poor, ill disciplined(again), lacking intensity and lacking cohesion. Not acceptable.
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it was really stupid, but I just dont think it was a yellow in context.
This has to be the final straw now though, Jones was very good for 18 months but his inability to move the squad forward has seen us utterly choke. As an aside does anyone think Farrell is a decent choice for captain on these showings?
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There’s a lack of leadership all over the pitch and from the sidelines. Look how bad we were on in the second half, doesn’t suggest the coaches are providing positive direction.
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Youngs hasn’t helped with that interview.
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Can definitely see a parting of ways with Jones before autumn internationals - the lack of discipline on the field makes you wonder if some of the players want him gone and the fact coaches don’t seem to have got a grip of the discipline similarly make you wonder if he is happy to be sacked??
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Goodbye Eddie, times up.
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There's clearly some questions to be answered from here but the first one for me is how the fuck anyone who knows anything about the game can think Ben fucking Spencer is international class.
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Germany beat Portugal 16-13 for a play-off with Samoa.
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For the second match running, FRA v NZ has been killed as a contest by a harsh card decision.
French guy sent off after a contest for a high ball. His eyes never left the ball.
I've only just watched this, definite red I'm afraid, the laws are very clear on this one. There is an element of misfortune in it but if make contact with someone and they then land head/shoulder first then you're gone, no argument or discussion, it's a straight red every single time. I understand why people don't like it but having been on a pitch with someone who's broken their neck in a similar tackle I totally agree with the need for the rule, of all the 'care bear' changes in the game this is the only one that I don't have misgivings about.
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Thanks chaps for saving me the time of watching it tonight.
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Thanks chaps for saving me the time of watching it tonight.
Watch the U20s instead, Final against France at 6pm. All the games so far have been live streamed on the England Rugby Facebook page (and probably their youtube as well). There are a few kids in there who are a bit special (Walker at 2, Curry at 7, Smith at 10, Dingwall at 13 and Ibitoye and Olowofela on the wings, Both props have great reputations as well but it's hard to be sure with props until they have 40-50 games under their belt).
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Thanks chaps for saving me the time of watching it tonight.
Watch the U20s instead, Final against France at 6pm. All the games so far have been live streamed on the England Rugby Facebook page (and probably their youtube as well). There are a few kids in there who are a bit special (Walker at 2, Curry at 7, Smith at 10, Dingwall at 13 and Ibitoye and Olowofela on the wings, Both props have great reputations as well but it's hard to be sure with props until they have 40-50 games under their belt).
French player Joseph looks pretty useful.
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Thanks chaps for saving me the time of watching it tonight.
Watch the U20s instead, Final against France at 6pm. All the games so far have been live streamed on the England Rugby Facebook page (and probably their youtube as well). There are a few kids in there who are a bit special (Walker at 2, Curry at 7, Smith at 10, Dingwall at 13 and Ibitoye and Olowofela on the wings, Both props have great reputations as well but it's hard to be sure with props until they have 40-50 games under their belt).
French player Joseph looks pretty useful.
Yeah, they've got 3-4 good 'uns in this group as well.
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So Eddie, you've just lost for the 6th game in a row, what are you going to do to get out of the rut, "I think I'll replace the injured players, Throw my fly-half to the dogs and do pretty much exactly what I did for the other games, except I'll change to a 6-2 bench". It's almost like he's trying to get sacked now.
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Our pack has been immense today, that moment of pure genius from Cipriani was worth the wait.
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Cipriani is a genius.
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Brilliant vision and execution too.
Conditions definitely helped, but the significant increase in discipline played a huge factor too.
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I hope Cipriani is involved moving forward. Few players have that type of ability and every squad needs it.
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Sam Warburton retires
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jul/18/sam-warburton-retires-rugby-union-29
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What an absolute legend Warburton is, a thoroughly decent Welsher and a top athlete and rugby player, good luck Sam.
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What an absolute legend Warburton is, a thoroughly decent Welsher and a top athlete and rugby player, good luck Sam.
A bit like Wilkinson, he's destroyed himself by being fully committed but having a serious technical flaw in his tackling technique. Wilko recovered (pretty much through force of will) and had a phenomenal end to his career but for a back row who's made his name as a workhorse I'm not surprised Warburton has had to call it a day early. It's a shame because he was a very good player but I reckon it's been on the cards for a while, he's struggled to maintain any sort of fitness for 3-4 years now.
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Interesting training squad.
Ashton back, didn't realise he had signed for Sale.
No Danny Care!
Backs: Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester Rugby), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Olowofela (Leicester Tigers), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Spencer (Saracens), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Forwards: Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Northampton Saints), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joel Kpoku (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Not considered for selection due to injury/fitness/other: Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Danny Care (Harlequins) Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
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Happy to see Care out, Delighted to see Wigglesworth out, not impressed by Spencer.
The Good:
Cokanasiga
Ibitoye
Marchant
Olowofela
Singleton
Hill
Underhill
Happy with the backs options he's added, that's a fuckload of pace and power, now we need to get them the ball in space. Singleton is a good choice because he's a much more 'modern' hooker (had to add the last 2 to be funny as much as anything).
The Bad
Isiekwe
Rhodes
Spencer (B)
Isiekwe is just shit, Rhodes is 30 and nothing special, Spencer isn't good enough to get in the sarries team ahead of fucking wigglesworth.
As a general complaint, the insistence on picking as many sarries players as possible is starting to really piss me off. We are starting to look a lot like Sarries in our play and, at international level, it's not good enough to box kick and wait for them to make mistakes.
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Looks like Cipriani has potentially shot himself in the foot again.
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Looks like Cipriani has potentially shot himself in the foot again.
Brilliant player on the pitch but a complete moron who can't handle his beer off the pitch.
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Cipriani left out of training squad, weird decision that.
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Yes, thought that was odd. Eddie said he only wanted two in this session.
Interesting squad.
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Interesting squad but leaving Cipriani out (and suggesting he's 3rd or 4th choice) is as baffling as his continued reluctance to select Robson was.
Aside from that I see little point in recalling Ashton and, for me, Schonert and Rhodes are bizarre selections, the former is an average prop in a poor team who's started the season badly and the latter is a 30 year old who could barely get a start for his club side until about 6 months ago and hasn't bene anything special since then. I don't think Lozowski or Earle have earned their spots either. He's starting to piss me off now with this and I'm expecting a pretty poor run this autumn. I'd hoped the 6N was the kick up the arse he and the squad needed but he's gone straight back to making the same mistakes again after starting to see the problem in SA.
At it's most basic we're not good enough in open play defence, kick chase and turning the ball over so why pick 9s and 10s who kick the ball away so much?
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To give the Saracens angle, Lozowski was very good against Newcastle in week 1, and was forced to play in four different positions against Bristol due to multiple injuries in the back line. He didn't start against Northampton, which I assume was an injury but may have been McCall having half an eye on the Autumn internationals. Rhodes missed most of last season with injury, having been an absolute stalwart in the back-to-back European wins. Whether that's enough for either to get a spot in this squad is indeed debatable, but I would definitely have Loz in. Rhodes, on age grounds, not so much.
Outside of the parochial, I am disappointed about Cipriani, whom I rate over Ford, pleased Robson is finally getting a look, surprised at the missing Exeter contingent, and mortified about the lack of breakdown specialists. I share your frustration Paul - he must know where the problem is, I don't understand why he thinks the same group of players can fix it despite all evidence to the contrary.
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To give the Saracens angle, Lozowski was very good against Newcastle in week 1, and was forced to play in four different positions against Bristol due to multiple injuries in the back line. He didn't start against Northampton, which I assume was an injury but may have been McCall having half an eye on the Autumn internationals. Rhodes missed most of last season with injury, having been an absolute stalwart in the back-to-back European wins. Whether that's enough for either to get a spot in this squad is indeed debatable, but I would definitely have Loz in. Rhodes, on age grounds, not so much.
Outside of the parochial, I am disappointed about Cipriani, whom I rate over Ford, pleased Robson is finally getting a look, surprised at the missing Exeter contingent, and mortified about the lack of breakdown specialists. I share your frustration Paul - he must know where the problem is, I don't understand why he thinks the same group of players can fix it despite all evidence to the contrary.
Rhodes, I just don't think is any better than 5-6 blindsides in the league, solid club player but just doesn't look international standard to me. At the very simplest I'd pick Simmonds, Kvesic and Armand all ahead of him and that's just looking at 1 club (I'd definitely have Ludlow ahead of him as well).
Lozowski is different, he has loads of potential but I think he's too hit and miss to be picked ahead of someone like Marchant or Trinder. More importantly I don't think he's picked a single decent 12 so he's quite clearly banking on Farrell there again which raises a major concern for me that we'll end up with a lot of backs who's main job is to manage territory and chase kicks, Robson, Manu, T'eo and the wingers are the only players who aren't there on the back of their kicking ability as much as anything else and that worries me. He's said a number of times that he wants to play a way that suits English players and I'm worried his current plan is the go to largely playing a forwards game and focus heavily on the set-piece. I hope not but that's what the squad looks like to me.
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Rhodes, I just don't think is any better than 5-6 blindsides in the league, solid club player but just doesn't look international standard to me. At the very simplest I'd pick Simmonds, Kvesic and Armand all ahead of him and that's just looking at 1 club (I'd definitely have Ludlow ahead of him as well).
100% agree. That Exeter back row is monster, I don't understand why they're not getting a look in.
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I am baffled that Cipriani and Ludlow have been overlooked. Both have been superb this season for Gloucester.
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I am baffled that Cipriani and Ludlow have been overlooked. Both have been superb this season for Gloucester.
Still the same anti-West Country bias in place that stopped John Morris, Paul Howell and Julian Davis being the England scrum half in the 60s, 70s and 90s
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Sam Simmonds out.
Big loss
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugby/sam-simmonds-injury-england-forward-ruled-out-of-autumn-internationals-and-six-nations/ar-BBNTH7D?ocid=spartandhp
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Sam Simmonds out.
Big loss
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugby/sam-simmonds-injury-england-forward-ruled-out-of-autumn-internationals-and-six-nations/ar-BBNTH7D?ocid=spartandhp
Agree, he's a player we should be building around, incredible talent.
In slightly related news is it just me or did premiership rugby troll Jones with their player of the month? Cipriani's form wasn't good enough to make the England squad but did make him the best player the league in September.
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FFS
Billy V out
AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!
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I for one am stunned.
Billy Vunipola out with a long term injury???!!!!
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A return for Ben Morgan ?
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Morgan has been alright for us this season but he wouldn't be near the international set up if it weren't for injuries.
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A return for Ben Morgan ?
Got to be.
Playing very well for Gloucester apparently
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Joe Launchbury’s out as well.
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It's a bit of a rough time for English 8s, Hughes out for being stupid, Billy V out because his arms appear to be made of glass, Simmonds probably missing the season (and world cup) with a really nasty ACL injury. We've just not had much luck in that position recently. Morgan is a reasonable replacement but he still has a bad habit of running across the pitch which Jones really doesn't like in his forwards.
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Now Robshaw bites the dust.
I suppose this is the perfect time to blood some players as the pressure must, surely, be off
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Mercer in at 8, Kvesic at 7 and, if he's fit enough, Shields at 6.
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Mercer in at 8, Kvesic at 7 and, if he's fit enough, Shields at 6.
Sounds logical.
That means it will be .........
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Mercer in at 8, Kvesic at 7 and, if he's fit enough, Shields at 6.
Sounds logical.
That means it will be .........
... Itoje at 6
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Jedinak at 8, Hutton at 7 and ...I'll get my coat.
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Squad for the Autumn.
Forwards (20)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints) co-captain, Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors) *, Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Michael Rhodes (Saracens), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs (16)
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Nathan Earle (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens) co-captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).
Ben Morgan is re-included at last, he's better than Hughes IMHO, no Cipriani but Ashton is back!
With the injuries we have it's great to see some decent players getting their chances.
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I didn't think Underhill was fit but as he's there he's obviously got to be in at 7.
Looking at the squad though it's the props where we have real problems. Williams and Sinckler at tighthead is ok (and Schonert as a backup is a decent option) but the other side is a bit of a mess with Mako out and Marler retired. On form it's Moon to start I guess but I'm surprised that Hepburn is the only alternative (unless they see Schonert as covering both, which I can understand but is a risk).
Seems like a whole bunch of 6s; Hill, Rhodes, Shields, Curry and Wilson are all better suited to 6 and Mercer, Itoje, Ewels and Lawes have all played a fair number of games there as well, 9 options seems overkill when 7 is a much more specialist role and we've only got 1 of them.
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I didn't think Underhill was fit but as he's there he's obviously got to be in at 7.
Looking at the squad though it's the props where we have real problems. Williams and Sinckler at tighthead is ok (and Schonert as a backup is a decent option) but the other side is a bit of a mess with Mako out and Marler retired. On form it's Moon to start I guess but I'm surprised that Hepburn is the only alternative (unless they see Schonert as covering both, which I can understand but is a risk).
Seems like a whole bunch of 6s; Hill, Rhodes, Shields, Curry and Wilson are all better suited to 6 and Mercer, Itoje, Ewels and Lawes have all played a fair number of games there as well, 9 options seems overkill when 7 is a much more specialist role and we've only got 1 of them.
I can’t understand why you don’t think Tom Curry is a natural 7? For me, he’s comfortably the best we have. He links play better than Underhill and he’s certainly a step ahead over the ball. I’d suggest Underhill’s defence is on a higher level though.
I’m going to all games except NZ and for the first time in many years I’m not that confident. Think Eddie has got himself in a real pickle with selection.
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I didn't think Underhill was fit but as he's there he's obviously got to be in at 7.
Looking at the squad though it's the props where we have real problems. Williams and Sinckler at tighthead is ok (and Schonert as a backup is a decent option) but the other side is a bit of a mess with Mako out and Marler retired. On form it's Moon to start I guess but I'm surprised that Hepburn is the only alternative (unless they see Schonert as covering both, which I can understand but is a risk).
Seems like a whole bunch of 6s; Hill, Rhodes, Shields, Curry and Wilson are all better suited to 6 and Mercer, Itoje, Ewels and Lawes have all played a fair number of games there as well, 9 options seems overkill when 7 is a much more specialist role and we've only got 1 of them.
I can’t understand why you don’t think Tom Curry is a natural 7? For me, he’s comfortably the best we have. He links play better than Underhill and he’s certainly a step ahead over the ball. I’d suggest Underhill’s defence is on a higher level though.
I’m going to all games except NZ and for the first time in many years I’m not that confident. Think Eddie has got himself in a real pickle with selection.
I may be being a bit harsh and I haven't watched much of sale this season but last year I thought his work at the breakdown (when attacking) was weak because he was too interested in being a ball carrier. Lots of people focus on turning ball over at the breakdown (Underhill and Curry are both good at that) but that's only half the job. My biggest problem with England for years has been our inability to generate quick ball and exploit broken defences, part of that is because we insist on people like Care, Youngs and Wigglesworth at 9but we also do a bad job of securing the ball for the 9 and that starts with us barely having played a real 7 for about 10 years.
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International Rugby (Fiji v Uruguay) just a few miles from me on 17 Nov
No Villa game, so I could go. However, I'm reluctant to set foot in that fake rugby club
https://www.hartpury.ac.uk/news/2018/10/hartpury-announced-as-host-of-international-rugby-clash/
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Where the fuck are Cipriani and Ludlow? And at a push Trinder and Sharples?
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Sharples won't get anywhere near, Trinder is fantastic but has had too many injuries and has probably lost his chance, Ludlow should be right on the cusp of the squad and Cips not being there is a fucking stupid decision.
Manu was excellent tonight, I still have question marks over whether him and Farrell will work together but I think he deserves a run over the Autumn to see if he can give us that something we've been missing in the centres.
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Looking forward to tomorrow at Twickenham, Guscott I think it was said we should be happy with 2 wins from 4, I think we should be aiming at 3 and a narrow defeat to NZ if Jones really is going to be able to turn this around before Japan.
A win tomorrow should see us on the way.
Boks, England win by 8.
All Blacks, defeat by 10.
Japan, England win by 18.
Shackle dragging convicts, England win by 84. (alright 14)
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I’ll be delighted if we win, I’ll also be surprised.
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Anything less than 3 wins out of 4 should see the end of Jones.
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Yet again the lack of discipline is a fucking disgrace.
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Pretty fucking poor.
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Staggering its only 8-6 to SA at half time. They've been hugely superior in every area. Thankfully they blew some pretty simple chances.
The difference in physicality between the sides has been huge. Turning that around will be very difficult
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Much better 2nd half, but still very very fortunate to win the game. Farrell very lucky to get away with the hit at the end, would have been pissed off if that was the other way around.
We need to inject that sort of tempo into the game from the start.
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Cipriani got a red for much less a few weeks ago. The IRU needs to sort this massive inconsistency out.
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Game of 2 halves.
Much better second half. I’m sorry but Youngs offers nothing, Care needs to start next week.
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Like a late Spring day in Twickenham today.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/cgYyq0/D2908320-99-F1-4-D95-97-DB-31-D83-B70437-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cgYyq0)
2013 sl63 0 60 (https://statewideinventory.org/mercedes-0-60-times)
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Good to stick it out and get that result, but need to be much better.
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Brilliant defence by England, especially the final few minutes.
Thought the Ref got the Farrell decision right, he tried to wrap him but with the pace of impact couldn't complete.
South African line out cost them the game, it was awful
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I've had a busy day so I missed most of the game and have only seena handful of highlights.
On the Farrell tackle I can see both sides, it's one that right on the edge of the laws.
I'll pass more comments when I've watched more but I'm not surprised to see lots of comments about T'eo and Youngs being weak links (not here).
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T’eo is an odd choice purely for the minutes he’s played. I like him as a player, mainly as an impact payer, but he’s clearly not match fit.
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T’eo is an odd choice purely for the minutes he’s played. I like him as a player, mainly as an impact payer, but he’s clearly not match fit.
I'm not sure, I watch a lot of premiership rugby and I've never bene massively impressed by him, he's ok but he's not a particularly effective crash runner (which is what we seem to want to make him into) he just does'n t run the right lines (Burrell is still the best player in the league for that but unfortunately he has too many weaknesses in his all round game) so it doesn't feel like he's going to open teams up in the way that the very best big centres do. My other issue with bringing him in is that it makes the whole thing feel a little muddled. We've used Ford and Farrell as 10/12 for 3 years and it seems to odd to shift the 2nd playmaker to 13 and just go for bulk in at 12.
The biggest problem, as ever, is that I don't think we have any genuinely world class centres, Manu might have become one with better coaching and less injuries (Trinder too) but other than that most English centres currently are out of position 10s or wingers. A top centre has the all round game of a back but combines it with the 'dog' of a 6/7, 1 of your centres (preferably 13) really needs to be able to boss the breakdown like a backrow, and we don't have any who offer that and we don't seem to be encouraging them through either.
Of all the young players in the league my current centre pairing would be utterly batshit crazy because I'd go with:
Mallinder at 12 is the more sensible one. I'd focus him on running good lines and breaking the line consistently as well as work with him on making the big hits on 10s and backrows to make the most of his size advantage. He's got a great offloading game, bags of pace, soft hands and a very good kicking game but has been badly let down by Saints in the last 2 years because they keep playing him to fill gaps rather than give him a specific role and double down on it.
At 13 we have major problems, Slade is a band aid, Manu and Trinder are broken and can't be relied on, Daly is an option (but suffers the same versatility issue as Mallinder) but none of them are right. On that basis I'd try to create one from scratch. What I want is, good hands, a decent offloading game, an eye for the tryline, pace, strength, a solid tackle and the ability to win turnovers, give me all of those things and 6months of positional coaching and you've got a 13 for the world cup. On that basis I'd beg Exeter to convert Sam Simmonds.
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T’eo is an odd choice purely for the minutes he’s played. I like him as a player, mainly as an impact payer, but he’s clearly not match fit.
I'm not sure, I watch a lot of premiership rugby and I've never bene massively impressed by him, he's ok but he's not a particularly effective crash runner (which is what we seem to want to make him into) he just does'n t run the right lines (Burrell is still the best player in the league for that but unfortunately he has too many weaknesses in his all round game) so it doesn't feel like he's going to open teams up in the way that the very best big centres do. My other issue with bringing him in is that it makes the whole thing feel a little muddled. We've used Ford and Farrell as 10/12 for 3 years and it seems to odd to shift the 2nd playmaker to 13 and just go for bulk in at 12.
The biggest problem, as ever, is that I don't think we have any genuinely world class centres, Manu might have become one with better coaching and less injuries (Trinder too) but other than that most English centres currently are out of position 10s or wingers. A top centre has the all round game of a back but combines it with the 'dog' of a 6/7, 1 of your centres (preferably 13) really needs to be able to boss the breakdown like a backrow, and we don't have any who offer that and we don't seem to be encouraging them through either.
Of all the young players in the league my current centre pairing would be utterly batshit crazy because I'd go with:
Mallinder at 12 is the more sensible one. I'd focus him on running good lines and breaking the line consistently as well as work with him on making the big hits on 10s and backrows to make the most of his size advantage. He's got a great offloading game, bags of pace, soft hands and a very good kicking game but has been badly let down by Saints in the last 2 years because they keep playing him to fill gaps rather than give him a specific role and double down on it.
At 13 we have major problems, Slade is a band aid, Manu and Trinder are broken and can't be relied on, Daly is an option (but suffers the same versatility issue as Mallinder) but none of them are right. On that basis I'd try to create one from scratch. What I want is, good hands, a decent offloading game, an eye for the tryline, pace, strength, a solid tackle and the ability to win turnovers, give me all of those things and 6months of positional coaching and you've got a 13 for the world cup. On that basis I'd beg Exeter to convert Sam Simmonds.
Flippin' heck, Paul.
There's 'Batshit crazy' and there's 'Batshit crazy' ;D
I certainly agree on Mallinder. Great player.
I wonder if he'd benefit by leaving Northampton?
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Oh i know, i just can't see a proper 13 anywherr and he's one of the few players with the right skillset.
Marchant is the best youngster and he can be trained and might learn to play at the breakdown but like most English 13s he's currently a winger with a pass.
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Youngs starts again, Christ on a bike.
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Youngs starts again, Christ on a bike.
One of the great stand up shows of recent years
(http://www.richardherring.com/downloads/39/Picture_103.png)
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The Scrum Half position has been average at best for England for a few years now
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Youngs starts again, Christ on a bike.
One of the great stand up shows of recent years
(http://www.richardherring.com/downloads/39/Picture_103.png)
A classic example of knowing who the poster was before reading the username. I thought, "that'll be Redsox".
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The Scrum Half position has been average at best for England for a few years now
and the worst thing about that is that we have a world class 9 kicking his heels waiting for a decent chance but Jones just will not pick Robson despite him being one of the 4-5 best players in Europe for the last 2-3 years.
We have genuine problem positions (7 and 13 mainly) so creating extra issues by not picking players who have shown extensive good form is stupidity. There's a lot of things I like about Jones but his stubbornness regarding some players is a massive weakness.
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It pains me to say it but I'd pick Wigglesworth over Youngs right now, his box kicking is far better, Youngs is just off form and it's so painful to watch.
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Count me in for a Robson vote as well. Picking Youngs or Care over him is utterly ludicrous.
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Started brilliantly here, really good recycling for the try, was quick ball with lots of runners.
New Zealand have already started with the niggly shit to slow things down, 2-3 times they've been very slow moving out the way after tackles.
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Got a bit sloppy in the last 4-5 minutes of the half which has cost us, we deserve a bigger lead than that.
Underhill has been superb and Lawes was at least as good in his little 10 minute spell, I'd bring him back on pretty quickly.
I think Slade got drawn in a bit too easily for their try.
I reckon Whitelock could be in a bit of trouble in the week, there was a pretty clear punch thrown at Kruis (who was trying to pull him into the ruck), not sure how the ref and touch judge missed it.
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and Whitelock throws another punch, at Sinckler this time.
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Not happy, that disallowed try is a fucking awful decision.
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That was bullshit.
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Got a bit sloppy in the last 4-5 minutes of the half which has cost us, we deserve a bigger lead than that.
Underhill has been superb and Lawes was at least as good in his little 10 minute spell, I'd bring him back on pretty quickly.
I think Slade got drawn in a bit too easily for their try.
I reckon Whitelock could be in a bit of trouble in the week, there was a pretty clear punch thrown at Kruis (who was trying to pull him into the ruck), not sure how the ref and touch judge missed it.
They always do, mate.
the disallowed try has got to go down as the worse decision, though.
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Got a bit sloppy in the last 4-5 minutes of the half which has cost us, we deserve a bigger lead than that.
Underhill has been superb and Lawes was at least as good in his little 10 minute spell, I'd bring him back on pretty quickly.
I think Slade got drawn in a bit too easily for their try.
I reckon Whitelock could be in a bit of trouble in the week, there was a pretty clear punch thrown at Kruis (who was trying to pull him into the ruck), not sure how the ref and touch judge missed it.
They always do, mate.
the disallowed try has got to go down as the worse decision, though.
Definitely, i just find it strange that they don't go back and check things like punches, even if only at half time.
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The disallowed try was bollocks. I’m really encouraged by England though, that was so much better. Underhill was excellent, as was Itoje.
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Underhill was fantastic.
I was surprised our line out looked poor when Jamie George came on.
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Yes it’s alright being good in the loose, but if you can’t hit your jumpers then that play in the loose is pointless.
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The other thing today did was reinvigorate my faith in Jones. I had lost some faith, but if the can hit this level and build on it I believe in their capability as a team again.
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That's why I think Hartley is still the starter and should be playing 50-60 minutes against the best sides, he's a better thrower anyway but he's also more organised, the maul try was all about his ability to get a maul going. That said I don't think it was entirely George's fault, the first couple of lineouts after he came on should've been penalties for them playing the man in the air but the ref didn't give it and George lost all his confidence.
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That TMO cost us the game, disgraceful decision.
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French fucking robbed at the finish against the men from Del Monte. They played Fergie Time until South Africa scored a winning try. Booooo!
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Can anyone explain how this is offside?
(https://thumb.ibb.co/kBiC0A/B5-B29-F9-C-129-C-4-AD4-B9-B2-9292-BA09-C0-AA.jpg)
(https://ibb.co/kBiC0A)
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I assume I don’t know the rules, because I don’t get it.
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Jerry Guscott said he was half a yard off.
Brian Moore, if I heard correctly, very close. But he seemed to edge with onside.
For me the ref was perfectly placed and didn't give anything. It looked close, but, I thought the ball was definitely out when Lawes made his move
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The ball is out. In fact the ball is off the ground in the scrum half’s hands.
Lawes feet are behind the hindmost player in the ruck.
On the ref link yesterday it sounded like Garces gives the try but is told by Jonker the TMO to review it. It was noisy, but that’s how it sounded.
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Anyway...
Moon is a far better option than Hepburn, Mako starting Moon on the bench for me.
Hartley starting is still the right choice, George is a great option from bench.
Sinckler was excellent but Williams looked out of his depth.
Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury and Kruis is the best set of 2nd row option in the world, really happy with all 4.
I'm not entirely convinced by Shields but he's got time to adapt still.
Underhill is excellent for games where the opposition want to generate quick ball to the backs, Barrett was terrified of him.
Wilson was solid but he looked like a 6 playing out of position yesterday, Billy V, Hughes and Simmonds are a class above him, I'd consider him over Shields long term though.
Youngs and Care frustrate the shit out of me, they do some good things but they seem to take it in turns to do stupid shit, every game at least one of them makes 2-3 dumb decisions. Robson deserves a chance.
Farrell was excellent but needs to work on his game management for me, there were a couple of times where he kicked when we'd have been better taking a couple of minutes keeping it in the forwards to slow the game up a bit, he needs to recognise that.
Centres are a mess, Slade has a lot of quality but he doesn't work outside T'eo, we probably need to give Manu another go at 12 (despite my reservations about his all round game) and Daly may still be a better option at 13, if Watson comes back and takes the 15 shirt. I'd love Mallinder to get a proper run at 12 and come through as the player he could be in there, he's got everything we're looking for but has spent too much time as a utility back.
back 3 were good, May has become a world class winger, Ashton is a great finisher but is still limited in the rest of his game, Nowell was good when he came on, Daly needs to improve under the high ball to stay at 15 but he was very good in all other aspects, With Watson and Cokanasiga in the mix I think we've got fantastic options there.
To sum up, fix the centres and we'll be exactly where I'd want going into a world cup year.
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Thus far this is terrible.
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At least they managed to redeem themselves in the second half.
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Wow! Very proud to be Irish today, thought we'd lose by 10-15 points after their scare against England. Immense performance.
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I have no links to Ireland, but that was an astonishing match and fair play to them.
On a side note, will any international ref ever show the balls to call New Zealand for forward passes ? To my eyes they had at least 3-4 which looked very dodgy, but then he went and pinged one for Ireland which looked backwards, much less flat...
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I went to the Wales v Tonga game.
After three quick tries by Wales, Tonga fought back well to tie the game at 24-24. However, the game then turned into a farce as Wales scored 50 unanswered points.
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Looks like it's going to be a cracking 6 Nations.
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Wow! Very proud to be Irish today, thought we'd lose by 10-15 points after their scare against England. Immense performance.
Great result for the Irish, they're going to be the ones to beat from now on.
Given that England also 'Beat' New Zealand, (We know it, they know it, everyone knows it) NZ will go into the World Cup knowing they are not unbeatable even with a 16th player.
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Wow! Very proud to be Irish today, thought we'd lose by 10-15 points after their scare against England. Immense performance.
Great result for the Irish, they're going to be the ones to beat from now on.
Given that England also 'Beat' New Zealand, (We know it, they know it, everyone knows it) NZ will go into the World Cup knowing they are not unbeatable even with a 16th player.
Just to add to this I've recently started playing again (I'm nearly 39 so I have no fucking idea why I thought it was a good idea) and yesterday, before the game the ref was talking about the offside and was adamant the decision was wrong, in her (first time I've had a female ref) view the ball was out 3-4 seconds before he stood to kick it so Lawes was comfortably onside. By the end of the game I was confident that she was shit hot on the laws of the game so I think her view was very valuable. Talking with other people I know in the game (including a few that aren't English) there wasn't clear evidence for the TMO to make the call.
I think there's 4-5 teams that are looking in a good place coming into the world cup year so it should be a really strong competition.
If everything goes to the rankings:
we win our group and then play Australia, New Zealand and Ireland for QF, SF and Final.
Finish 2nd and we'd have Wales, Ireland and NZ.
I can't decide which way round I'd prefer that to go, losing to Ireland in the final would be a kick in the bollocks if you'd beaten NZ to get there though.
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Watching the England game now (had a busy weekend, and wanted to watch the domestic stuff first). First thought, this midfield just doesn't work, Lozowski isn't good enough and Nowell has no idea how to play centre. Care scored the try but other than that his first half was fucking pathetic. Wilson isn't a 7 and we really need to stop using 2nd rows at 6, it's fucking stupid but his refusal to play Itoje and Lawes at 4 and 5 is becoming a big problem for us.
Ashton and Lozowski going off was the key to us turning it around because we suddenly went into the 2nd half and had a functioning centre pairing, I still have issues with ford, farrell, slade as a unit but at least they all know how to do their jobs and have international quality. I feel a bit sorry for Mercer because he didn't do much wrong at 8 but the backrow was a mess until Underhill came on and gave it some sort of balance.
I'm a massive fan of Daly but I think he was poor at fullback and has never seemed settled there, I think he's a winger or utility sub at this level and Watson would be my choice for the world cup if he can get fit and get some games under his belt.
Edit to add a final point, Hartley organising at the back of the maul to score again shows why he's still got a big part to play, George is very good in open play but I firmly believe Hartley, currently, makes us more solid and helps us build a platform.
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Ashton misses the Australia test through injury.
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Ashton misses the Australia test through injury.
Unlucky but I think we're a stronger team with Nowell and May on the wings and Cokanasiga to come off the bench.
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Great 2nd half today. Cokanasiga is an important option for us and gives us another dimension in attack. Teo was disappointing again.
Lawes and Itoje were excellent and, along with Underhill, they put a huge amount of pressure on the half backs. Given all the major nations rely on an expansive game that's something we sholud build around.
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Farrell again, ey?
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Farrell again, ey?
He grew up on Rugby league and was taught to defend by his dad who was a league player, in league the 2-3 hits that have been highlighted this series would be perfectly acceptable. That said I think he's lucky to get away with it as often as he does. It's not just him though, plenty of players do it but because it was such a key time in the SA game it's been blown up out of proportion.
I think things are setting up nicely for the world cup now and the opening weekend of the 6N is a massive with England away in Dublin. The winner of that takes the 6N and possibly goes into the world cup as favourites, NZ do seem to be creaking quite badly right now, just like England did a year ago.
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So schmidt is to head back to new zealand after the world cup. Remarkable coach, hopefully he can sign off in style before the very worrying prospect of him taking over as all blacks coach.
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Farrell again, ey?
He grew up on Rugby league and was taught to defend by his dad who was a league player, in league the 2-3 hits that have been highlighted this series would be perfectly acceptable. That said I think he's lucky to get away with it as often as he does. It's not just him though, plenty of players do it but because it was such a key time in the SA game it's been blown up out of proportion.
I think things are setting up nicely for the world cup now and the opening weekend of the 6N is a massive with England away in Dublin. The winner of that takes the 6N and possibly goes into the world cup as favourites, NZ do seem to be creaking quite badly right now, just like England did a year ago.
Not sure about that Paul, seeing as both England and Ireland have to visit Cardiff in the 6N!! I still think the All Blacks are the team to beat and that both Australia and South Africa will be different propositions by the time they arrive in Japan. I have seen the South Africans play a few times this Autumn and they have got an absolutely monster pack. They just seem to be a bit incoherent in the back division, but a bit of fine tuning there and they will be a real force.
It does feel like the playing field has levelled out somewhat though and the build up to the World cup should be fascinating.
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Farrell again, ey?
He grew up on Rugby league and was taught to defend by his dad who was a league player, in league the 2-3 hits that have been highlighted this series would be perfectly acceptable. That said I think he's lucky to get away with it as often as he does. It's not just him though, plenty of players do it but because it was such a key time in the SA game it's been blown up out of proportion.
I think things are setting up nicely for the world cup now and the opening weekend of the 6N is a massive with England away in Dublin. The winner of that takes the 6N and possibly goes into the world cup as favourites, NZ do seem to be creaking quite badly right now, just like England did a year ago.
Not sure about that Paul, seeing as both England and Ireland have to visit Cardiff in the 6N!! I still think the All Blacks are the team to beat and that both Australia and South Africa will be different propositions by the time they arrive in Japan. I have seen the South Africans play a few times this Autumn and they have got an absolutely monster pack. They just seem to be a bit incoherent in the back division, but a bit of fine tuning there and they will be a real force.
It does feel like the playing field has levelled out somewhat though and the build up to the World cup should be fascinating.
To be fair they're all tough games (Italy aside) because NH rugby is in a really good place right now but I think Ireland have an extra bit of quality and England have the depth to be able to bring genuine game changers off the bench with the rest don't have.
SA have a fantastic pack but the 9 and 10 combo doesn't work (in my opinion) and that will hold them back. Australia won't be in the mix, they haven't got the forwards to deal with any of the big sides. NZ are obviously still a very good side but I think their back row is the weakest it's been for years and the air of invincibility has gone. If that try hadn't been scrubbed off they'd have gone for 3 defeats in 6months which would've been unheard of 2 years back and at pretty much any point in the last 7-8 years a close call like England would've seen a massive step up in performance the following week but they showed they just didn't have the gear to go up to. They'll still bully the smaller teams (see Italy and Japan this autumn) but if the big sides follow their plan and turn up I can see a fair few tight games.
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So schmidt is to head back to new zealand after the world cup. Remarkable coach, hopefully he can sign off in style before the very worrying prospect of him taking over as all blacks coach.
Nope, he's retiring from coaching after the World Cup to spend more time with his family.
I think the next coach of the AB's could well be Scott Robertson, the coach of the Canterbury Crusaders.
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Yeah, although it wouldn't surprise me if he came back at some stage in the future.
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Farrell again, ey?
He grew up on Rugby league and was taught to defend by his dad who was a league player, in league the 2-3 hits that have been highlighted this series would be perfectly acceptable. That said I think he's lucky to get away with it as often as he does. It's not just him though, plenty of players do it but because it was such a key time in the SA game it's been blown up out of proportion.
I think things are setting up nicely for the world cup now and the opening weekend of the 6N is a massive with England away in Dublin. The winner of that takes the 6N and possibly goes into the world cup as favourites, NZ do seem to be creaking quite badly right now, just like England did a year ago.
Not sure about that Paul, seeing as both England and Ireland have to visit Cardiff in the 6N!! I still think the All Blacks are the team to beat and that both Australia and South Africa will be different propositions by the time they arrive in Japan. I have seen the South Africans play a few times this Autumn and they have got an absolutely monster pack. They just seem to be a bit incoherent in the back division, but a bit of fine tuning there and they will be a real force.
It does feel like the playing field has levelled out somewhat though and the build up to the World cup should be fascinating.
SA have a fantastic pack but the 9 and 10 combo doesn't work (in my opinion) and that will hold them back. Australia won't be in the mix, they haven't got the forwards to deal with any of the big sides. NZ are obviously still a very good side but I think their back row is the weakest it's been for years and the air of invincibility has gone. If that try hadn't been scrubbed off they'd have gone for 3 defeats in 6months which would've been unheard of 2 years back and at pretty much any point in the last 7-8 years a close call like England would've seen a massive step up in performance the following week but they showed they just didn't have the gear to go up to. They'll still bully the smaller teams (see Italy and Japan this autumn) but if the big sides follow their plan and turn up I can see a fair few tight games.
I thought the South African centres looked a bit limited this Autumn, but they have a dangerous back three. Think you are right about their 9/10 combo, but if they can sort that (the 9 from Sale might well be brought back into the fold) and maybe use Pollard as a 12, they will be a tough team to beat come the World Cup.
Australia are a strange one, as all the rumours before the Autumn test were that they had their strongest tight five for some time. You can never write them off though and again I'm sure they will be turning up in Japan in decent enough shape.
I still think the All Blacks would beat any of the other sides in the world over a three match series home or away. A one-off game might be a different matter though and they might be vulnerable enough for sides to catch them cold. Knowing them though, they will have unearthed five new superstars by the time the World Cup comes around and it will be business as usual.
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Barbarians v Argentina
Cracking match, really enjoying it.
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Opening weekend of the 2019 6 Nations is only a few weeks away now.
What's England's injury list looking like as we head into a tough opener vs Ireland on the Saturday late afternoon?
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Opening weekend of the 2019 6 Nations is only a few weeks away now.
What's England's injury list looking like as we head into a tough opener vs Ireland on the Saturday late afternoon?
Front Row:
Mako is back and playing so should be ok, Moon is fit, George is fit, Hartley has had a niggle but should be fit, Sinckler is fit, Williams is fit - I suspect that will be the 6 on matchday but there's plenty of decent backup as Hill, Genge, Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Dunn and Catt are all fit and have all been around the squad in the last couple of years.
Second Row:
Launchbury is still out not sure where he's at, Kruis and Lawes are fit, Itoje is currently out but should be back soon, might miss the Ireland game. Not sure who gets the nod in squad and/or if Itoje or Launchbury don't make it, there's 3-4 options, Ewels and Isiekwe are both fit but playing back row at club level
Back Row:
Underhill looks unlikely, Simmonds definitely out, Billy V is due back about now, Hughes is out (I think), I think everyone else in the mix is fit. I expect Wilson at 6 or 8, Curry at 7 and then Shields or Billy V (at 6 or 8 respectively) depending on Billy being fit. Ted Hill at Worcester will be involved in the squad, he might shock a few people and call Kvesic in as he's been in great form for Chiefs.
Half backs:
Care Fit, Farrell fit and the tigers pair of Youngs and Ford are fit but in awful form, I think he'll pick them anyway, Smith will probably be involved and I'd guess 1 from Wigglesworth or Maunder at 9, I doubt Robson will get a look in. Burns and Cipriani will probably miss out despite being in good form for their clubs.
Centres:
Manu is fit, Slade is fit, T'eo is fit, Francis is fit - I suspect they're the options he's looking at. Outside bet is a call up for Max Wright, really slim bet is a call up for Fraser Dingwall, they're definitely on the radar.
Outside backs:
Watson 50/50, Cokanasiga should be fit, Nowell 50/50, Daly fit, May fit. No idea what he'll do if the first 3 don't make it but Ashton and Solomona might well be involved and I expect Thorley to get a call up, Lewington might get a nod as well.
That's a bit of an essay but I think it pretty much covers everything. The Backrow is the problem area, if Billy doesn't make it we're looking really short of quality in there unless he backs down and picks some of the people he's been ignoring for a few years. I think Shields will be in but he really doesn't deserve to be, he's been terrible for Wasps.
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Thorley wasn't in the Glawster lineup at the weekend. Is he injured as well ?
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Thorley wasn't in the Glawster lineup at the weekend. Is he injured as well ?
Just rested as far as I can tell, no talk of an injury and he was involved in an England meetup/medical screening on Tuesday (Ackermann mentioned both him and Cipriani had been to it but the RFU haven't said anything).
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Apparently 2019 could be Nigel Owen’s last 6 Nations.
Also if chelts doesn’t cough up some wonga sharpish he won’t be going to England v Scotland either. 🤩
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Apparently 2019 could be Nigel Owen’s last 6 Nations.
I thought that Nige announced some time ago that he was packing it in anyway after RWC 2019.
He'll make a brilliant co-commentator or studio expert after he retires (to go along with his existing Welsh language TV career)
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Thorley wasn't in the Glawster lineup at the weekend. Is he injured as well ?
Just rested as far as I can tell, no talk of an injury and he was involved in an England meetup/medical screening on Tuesday (Ackermann mentioned both him and Cipriani had been to it but the RFU haven't said anything).
Thorley was left out on the back of a head injury thingy.
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Thorley wasn't in the Glawster lineup at the weekend. Is he injured as well ?
Just rested as far as I can tell, no talk of an injury and he was involved in an England meetup/medical screening on Tuesday (Ackermann mentioned both him and Cipriani had been to it but the RFU haven't said anything).
Thorley was left out on the back of a head injury thingy.
Yeah, he came back in for the Munster game so had to be something minor. I still think he'll get into the England squad.
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He should. He is as quick as fuck and far better defensively than May ever was.
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Initial England squad for Ireland game
Forwards: Jack Clifford, Dan Cole, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Tom Curry, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Nathan Hughes, Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Ben Moon, Brad Shields, Kyle Sinckler, Jack Singleton, Billy Vunipola, Mako Vunipola, Harry Williams, Mark Wilson.
Backs: Chris Ashton, Mike Brown, Joe Cokanasiga, Elliot Daly, Ollie Devoto, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jonny May, Jack Nowell, Dan Robson, Henry Slade, Ben Te'o, Ollie Thorley, Manu Tuilagi, Ben Youngs.
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Happy with that. I'm not sure how Ben Earl has snuck his way in on the back of about 5 or 6 starts, ever, Jones seems to pick anyone English who gets game time for Sarries. Add Clifford as well and we've got a couple of back rows that i just can't see having any involvement, I'd have put Ludlow ahead of both of them right now.
I don't think Singleton is ready but with Hartley missing with a dodgy knee and Taylor struggling to get fit we're a bit light on hookers so I'm ok with him there as effectively the 5th choice.
No Care in the backs means Robson gets in despite being in his worst form for about 3 years, which highlights how poor the handling of him has been.
Finally Thorley is there as I suspected, I don't think he'll be involved in the 23 against Ireland but I suspect he'll get gametime during the tournament, probably alternating with Cokanasiga.
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Thorley should at least get the Italy game but the Ireland game being first means that there's no chance of early experimentation
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Thorley should at least get the Italy game but the Ireland game being first means that there's no chance of early experimentation
Italy and Scotland seem the obvious games to give him a shot in. Ireland and Wales away are quite big atmosphere's to throw a new cap in so France at home would be the other sensible option.
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Pleased for Thorley. He has had an excellent season.
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Really looking forward to the 6 nations, it will be good to see some men that won't throw themselves to the ground after "contact" has been made.
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Enjoying this, Wales have been utter shit but the handling from the french is brilliant given the conditions. Picamoles is a great player and is having a belter of a game, best player on the pitch by miles so far.
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Well, France utterly shat the bed there.
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One of the most interesting things I saw tonight was the stat that Wales matches have the most ball in play time.
That is 37 minutes. 37 minutes in a sport where the clock stops. Thats an absolute disgrace.
Clearly shows the clock is not stopped anything like remotely enough. 43 minutes out of 80 just lost to absolutely fuck all?
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One of the most interesting things I saw tonight was the stat that Wales matches have the most ball in play time.
That is 37 minutes. 37 minutes in a sport where the clock stops. Thats an absolute disgrace.
Clearly shows the clock is not stopped anything like remotely enough. 43 minutes out of 80 just lost to absolutely fuck all?
Not really, up to a minute for every kick at the posts, that's about 10 minutes per game. 15-20 seconds per scrum, another 5 minutes or so. Lineouts probably cost similar. If you only started the clock when the ball was in play (so when the kicker moves, or the ball enters the scrum, or the hooker throws) each half would last well over an hour.
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One of the most interesting things I saw tonight was the stat that Wales matches have the most ball in play time.
That is 37 minutes. 37 minutes in a sport where the clock stops. Thats an absolute disgrace.
Clearly shows the clock is not stopped anything like remotely enough. 43 minutes out of 80 just lost to absolutely fuck all?
Not really, up to a minute for every kick at the posts, that's about 10 minutes per game. 15-20 seconds per scrum, another 5 minutes or so. Lineouts probably cost similar. If you only started the clock when the ball was in play (so when the kicker moves, or the ball enters the scrum, or the hooker throws) each half would last well over an hour.
Then so be it, (each half lasting over an hour) as i'm sure the paying spectators wouldn't object.
37 minutes was for matches involving Wales. The average amount of ball in play time is 32/33 minutes. I appreciate there are some times where the clock will keep running, but in a sport where the referee has the ability to stop the clock, and their is no stoppage time, that just appears plain wrong.
1 minute for kickers is too long. That can easily be halved. I'd also stop the clock for conversions after a try. They have done some work on getting scrums set quicker, but they still take too much time out of the game.
Theres a lot more that could and should be done. I enjoy watching rugby, but watching a kicker lining up his kick from 10 metres in front of the posts for 40 seconds I do not.
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One of the most interesting things I saw tonight was the stat that Wales matches have the most ball in play time.
That is 37 minutes. 37 minutes in a sport where the clock stops. Thats an absolute disgrace.
Clearly shows the clock is not stopped anything like remotely enough. 43 minutes out of 80 just lost to absolutely fuck all?
Not really, up to a minute for every kick at the posts, that's about 10 minutes per game. 15-20 seconds per scrum, another 5 minutes or so. Lineouts probably cost similar. If you only started the clock when the ball was in play (so when the kicker moves, or the ball enters the scrum, or the hooker throws) each half would last well over an hour.
Then so be it, (each half lasting over an hour) as i'm sure the paying spectators wouldn't object.
37 minutes was for matches involving Wales. The average amount of ball in play time is 32/33 minutes. I appreciate there are some times where the clock will keep running, but in a sport where the referee has the ability to stop the clock, and their is no stoppage time, that just appears plain wrong.
1 minute for kickers is too long. That can easily be halved. I'd also stop the clock for conversions after a try. They have done some work on getting scrums set quicker, but they still take too much time out of the game.
Theres a lot more that could and should be done. I enjoy watching rugby, but watching a kicker lining up his kick from 10 metres in front of the posts for 40 seconds I do not.
Stopping the clock generally only occurs to cover 2 situations, to treat an injury or for disciplinary action. If you watch after a scrum is awarded, for example, the clock runs but if the ref has to stand them up he'll call for the clock to stop first. Stopping the clock all the time would do more harm than good to the game. My biggest worry would be the increase in mauls and scrums leading to teams needing a 3rd front row on the bench. I'm not a prop but I have tried it and it's fucking exhausting. I think if it drops below half an hour then the officials should be questioned but above that is fine.
The best way I can sum this up is, if you hadn't seen the stat would you have cared?
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Wales did well to win, but, flippin' heck France made it easy for them.
Why on earth did that chap try that pass for North's interception?
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One of the most interesting things I saw tonight was the stat that Wales matches have the most ball in play time.
That is 37 minutes. 37 minutes in a sport where the clock stops. Thats an absolute disgrace.
Clearly shows the clock is not stopped anything like remotely enough. 43 minutes out of 80 just lost to absolutely fuck all?
Not really, up to a minute for every kick at the posts, that's about 10 minutes per game. 15-20 seconds per scrum, another 5 minutes or so. Lineouts probably cost similar. If you only started the clock when the ball was in play (so when the kicker moves, or the ball enters the scrum, or the hooker throws) each half would last well over an hour.
Then so be it, (each half lasting over an hour) as i'm sure the paying spectators wouldn't object.
37 minutes was for matches involving Wales. The average amount of ball in play time is 32/33 minutes. I appreciate there are some times where the clock will keep running, but in a sport where the referee has the ability to stop the clock, and their is no stoppage time, that just appears plain wrong.
1 minute for kickers is too long. That can easily be halved. I'd also stop the clock for conversions after a try. They have done some work on getting scrums set quicker, but they still take too much time out of the game.
Theres a lot more that could and should be done. I enjoy watching rugby, but watching a kicker lining up his kick from 10 metres in front of the posts for 40 seconds I do not.
Stopping the clock generally only occurs to cover 2 situations, to treat an injury or for disciplinary action. If you watch after a scrum is awarded, for example, the clock runs but if the ref has to stand them up he'll call for the clock to stop first. Stopping the clock all the time would do more harm than good to the game. My biggest worry would be the increase in mauls and scrums leading to teams needing a 3rd front row on the bench. I'm not a prop but I have tried it and it's fucking exhausting. I think if it drops below half an hour then the officials should be questioned but above that is fine.
The best way I can sum this up is, if you hadn't seen the stat would you have cared?
As I've said, I do find it can slightly spoil a game and get pissed off with scrums taking so long (one today in the scotland game took over 90 seconds from being awarded to ball being put in) and kickers getting so long for each kick.
I was slightly surprised at the severity of the issue on seeing the stat yesterday, but have always felt it to be a problem.
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Scotland look good.
Italy are pretty awful to be honest, but, you can only beat what's in front of you
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One of the most interesting things I saw tonight was the stat that Wales matches have the most ball in play time.
That is 37 minutes. 37 minutes in a sport where the clock stops. Thats an absolute disgrace.
Clearly shows the clock is not stopped anything like remotely enough. 43 minutes out of 80 just lost to absolutely fuck all?
Not really, up to a minute for every kick at the posts, that's about 10 minutes per game. 15-20 seconds per scrum, another 5 minutes or so. Lineouts probably cost similar. If you only started the clock when the ball was in play (so when the kicker moves, or the ball enters the scrum, or the hooker throws) each half would last well over an hour.
Then so be it, (each half lasting over an hour) as i'm sure the paying spectators wouldn't object.
37 minutes was for matches involving Wales. The average amount of ball in play time is 32/33 minutes. I appreciate there are some times where the clock will keep running, but in a sport where the referee has the ability to stop the clock, and their is no stoppage time, that just appears plain wrong.
1 minute for kickers is too long. That can easily be halved. I'd also stop the clock for conversions after a try. They have done some work on getting scrums set quicker, but they still take too much time out of the game.
Theres a lot more that could and should be done. I enjoy watching rugby, but watching a kicker lining up his kick from 10 metres in front of the posts for 40 seconds I do not.
Stopping the clock generally only occurs to cover 2 situations, to treat an injury or for disciplinary action. If you watch after a scrum is awarded, for example, the clock runs but if the ref has to stand them up he'll call for the clock to stop first. Stopping the clock all the time would do more harm than good to the game. My biggest worry would be the increase in mauls and scrums leading to teams needing a 3rd front row on the bench. I'm not a prop but I have tried it and it's fucking exhausting. I think if it drops below half an hour then the officials should be questioned but above that is fine.
The best way I can sum this up is, if you hadn't seen the stat would you have cared?
As I've said, I do find it can slightly spoil a game and get pissed off with scrums taking so long (one today in the scotland game took over 90 seconds from being awarded to ball being put in) and kickers getting so long for each kick.
I was slightly surprised at the severity of the issue on seeing the stat yesterday, but have always felt it to be a problem.
I agree that scrums are sometimes a problem, but most of the rest I'm pretty much ok with.
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Scotland vs italy was a fucking awful match. Scotland showed they can score tries from nothing but also that they're very vulnerable to teams that run hard and straight.
Main event now, think this will be an excellent match, 2 very good sides, England have their strongest 23 for about 2-3 years.
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What a start! Great attacking energy.
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Get in there, brilliant start, fantastic running lines to create the space out wide.
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Come on England, lovely start
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Curry you fucking idiot.
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Curry you fucking idiot.
Nah, that yellow is bullshit, nothing wrong with the tackle other than being half a second late. It's a penalty but never a yellow card, awful decision.
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It was a yellow for me.
Is Tuilagi injured or unfit?
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Giving away too many penalties. We need to pull this back.
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Get over! Lovely response.
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Attacking shape much better than it has been for a long time.
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Giving away too many penalties. We need to pull this back.
I reckon 2 of the penalties we've gave away were harsh, the Itoje one was particularly shit, Ireland are good at buying soft penalties though, it's a trick they've learned from the all blacks.
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Another bit of iffy reffing, how ddi ringrose not get pinged for hanging on, Nowell clearly won the turnover.
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That should have been a pen in front of the posts.
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England are easily the better team here, the yellow card and some unlucky calls evened things up for a while but as soon as the game is flowing we're totally on top.
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We’ve been much the better side, we better win this.
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I've seen tries like that given, we can feel pretty hard done by for a fair few decisions in that half. A ref who was slightly more sympathetic to us we'd be 15 points up here.
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I’m encouraged by this. This is the sort of level we were hitting a couple of years ago.
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That Irish try doesn’t look like it was grounded, there’s an English hand under the ball.
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Glad the studio called out the bad decision to disallow the Mako try. The rugby groups I'm on are ripping Garces to bits (and not just England fans).
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And as for Scotland, first try Laidlaw goes in from the side, second try was a forward pass and only a penalty for a blatant shoulder charge.
Scotland were flattered by the score and Italy deserved their scores at the end, both wooden spoon candidates.
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Maro off is a real blow.
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Feel like the pendulum is shifting in Ireland’s favour here.
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I think the game has just flattened out a bit with the injuries and subs. Lawes is a massive sub to bring on though, best tackler in world rugby and he's very quick to spot a chance to smash someone.
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Feel like the pendulum is shifting in Ireland’s favour here.
Nope.
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That miss is a blow.
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Fucking brilliant.
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Well at least that should put to bed any thoughts that the ref is a homer.
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Great try, just about level, May got taken out as well. Irish fans will moan about a forward pass but those ones never get given because it shaped backwards and then drifted.
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Brilliant by Lawes.
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Brilliant by Lawes.
He's been immense since he came on.
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Huge kick.
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Bit early but I'm going to give some man of the match shouts, Mako, Curry, May and Daly have been fucking brilliant, any of them getting it and I'm happy.
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Fucking outstanding all of them.
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Defense has been exceptional.
Bonus point win in Dublin, that's fucking massive.
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Great stuff
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What an athlete. He literally bounced off the ground. Even in slow motion he was fast.
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It’s an outstanding performance, beating this Ireland team in Ireland is massive.
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Huge win. Best performance in a long time.
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A lot of very good performances but it was underpinned by incredible line speed in defence and some brilliant rucking to slow their ball down. Our offloading in their half was good as well because they struggled to get their defensive line set and couldn't slow us down.
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Could and should have been by more, we played Ireland and the referee yet again, their first try is blatantly held up, not even a query to TMO, Vunipola’s try ruled out incorrectly and time and again you could clearly hear leave it green repeated 4 times at a ruck but as soon as an England hand gets near it’s a penalty straight away.
Rant over.
That team looks like it’s finally the one Jones wants, tactical masterclass brilliantly executed and the defensive line was so fast, Ireland just got overwhelmed, the stats don’t lie our tackling seemed to push them back every single time, immense, bring on the frogs next Sunday.
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That'll teach the "scummy Irish", "micks" when we're getting all "uppity". Hopefully our revenge will be the laughter of our children come Nov 2. Oiche mhaith ar fad!
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Could and should have been by more, we played Ireland and the referee yet again, their first try is blatantly held up, not even a query to TMO, Vunipola’s try ruled out incorrectly and time and again you could clearly hear leave it green repeated 4 times at a ruck but as soon as an England hand gets near it’s a penalty straight away.
Rant over.
That team looks like it’s finally the one Jones wants, tactical masterclass brilliantly executed and the defensive line was so fast, Ireland just got overwhelmed, the stats don’t lie our tackling seemed to push them back every single time, immense, bring on the frogs next Sunday.
Mako attempted 26 tackles and completed 25, that's fucking ridiculous for a prop.
I agree on the ref, and, to repeat myself, the yellow card was a shocker, you see tackles like that every week in the domestic game and I've never seen one given as a card. He may have been able to pull out (but I think he was committed) but even if it was judged as late it was a textbook tackle, there was nothing dangerous there, never a yellow card. Ruling out the Mako try was a horrible call, again you see players get a shove over the line like that regularly and they normally don't even get checked. There were also plenty of examples of us winning the breakdown and them either closing the ball off by falling on it or just hanging on and he never picked up on a single one of them, the Ringrose one on about 30-35 minutes was bizarre, he had about 5 England players pointing it out and Nowell was desperately trying to pull the ball out of his arms and he just let it go.
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Those bagpipes throughout the Scotland v Italy game made it almost unwatchable on TV
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Curry you fucking idiot.
Nah, that yellow is bullshit, nothing wrong with the tackle other than being half a second late. It's a penalty but never a yellow card, awful decision.
Agree, Paul.
Thought the ref was poor today.
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Those bagpipes throughout the Scotland v Italy game made it almost unwatchable on TV
Jonathan Davies commentating makes any game unwatchable.
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That'll teach the "scummy Irish", "micks" when we're getting all "uppity". Hopefully our revenge will be the laughter of our children come Nov 2. Oiche mhaith ar fad!
And goodnight to you too. ;)
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That'll teach the "scummy Irish", "micks" when we're getting all "uppity". Hopefully our revenge will be the laughter of our children come Nov 2. Oiche mhaith ar fad!
Huh?
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Thank Fuck for that today. The pub is going to be nice and quiet tonight and I won't have to put up with the usual shit and pretend I'm happy about it.
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That was a very impressive performace.
I’ve been critical of Jones’ obsession with power over subtlety yet it paid dividends today. The stats shown on screen were pretty even except for the ‘significant tackles’ (something like that, it was a new one on me) whereby I assume they were measuring the impact of the tackles, Ireland often lost a meter or two in contact.
Agree that the ref had a shocker too. Wonky lineouts from Ireland were rarely picked up not to mention the bigger decisions.
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Thank heavens one team is good at their game because between our Villa and our cricketers, this is a weekend ruined. Brilliant England 🏴
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That was a very impressive performace.
I’ve been critical of Jones’ obsession with power over subtlety yet it paid dividends today. The stats shown on screen were pretty even except for the ‘significant tackles’ (something like that, it was a new one on me) whereby I assume they were measuring the impact of the tackles, Ireland often lost a meter or two in contact.
Agree that the ref had a shocker too. Wonky lineouts from Ireland were rarely picked up not to mention the bigger decisions.
I think they blended power and subtlety today and that’s the key.
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That was a very impressive performace.
I’ve been critical of Jones’ obsession with power over subtlety yet it paid dividends today. The stats shown on screen were pretty even except for the ‘significant tackles’ (something like that, it was a new one on me) whereby I assume they were measuring the impact of the tackles, Ireland often lost a meter or two in contact.
Agree that the ref had a shocker too. Wonky lineouts from Ireland were rarely picked up not to mention the bigger decisions.
I think they blended power and subtlety today and that’s the key.
Absolutely, it was all about running lines today. We had George, Mako and most of the rest of the pack running round the fringes, then Billy, Manu and Nowell were targeting a cut back line on Sexton's outside shoulder but then trying to turn and offload from contact to generate quick ball. It meant we have their centres moving inwards over and over again, which left big gaps out wide for May, Daly and Slade who exploited the space brilliantly.
In defence we were doubling up a lot and pushing them backwards, the likes of Stander and Furlong were anonymous because we were smashing them behind the gainline. It meant there was space around the fringes but our outside backs are quicker than theirs so they couldn't exploit it.
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And that’s why it was such an incredible display, Ireland weren’t bad it was that we were excellent.
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Thank heavens one team is good at their game because between our Villa and our cricketers, this is a weekend ruined. Brilliant England 🏴
Sums up how I feel.
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Thought this was interesting:
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/51919733_552432155234316_1827522646170927104_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=2992f0d23fb634181388d23852ade854&oe=5CB95402)
At the time I was a little surprised they didn't check it but I was more concerned with the slight 'truck and trailer' nature of the maul as it broke up.
Just to address the first slade one (chasing the kick) when the kicker is taken out (legally or not) they have to give benefit of the doubt to the attacking teamwhen it's that close but even still Garces wanted to disallow that and the TV official talked him in to giving it.
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I noticed the hand to prevent grounding. Couldn't believe it was given.
Garces seemed desperate to disallow an England try.
Don't think he had his finest 80 mins!!!!
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Could and should have been by more, we played Ireland and the referee yet again, THEIR FIRST TRY IS BLATANTLY HELD UP, not even a query to TMO, Vunipola’s try ruled out incorrectly and time and again you could clearly hear leave it green repeated 4 times at a ruck but as soon as an England hand gets near it’s a penalty straight away.
Rant over.
That team looks like it’s finally the one Jones wants, tactical masterclass brilliantly executed and the defensive line was so fast, Ireland just got overwhelmed, the stats don’t lie our tackling seemed to push them back every single time, immense, bring on the frogs next Sunday.
Ahem.
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
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Well that explains everything.
(https://i.ibb.co/3NCWy7F/D8-A0-BE37-5206-4464-8-D4-D-4-D872816-AA14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3NCWy7F)
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Could and should have been by more, we played Ireland and the referee yet again, THEIR FIRST TRY IS BLATANTLY HELD UP, not even a query to TMO, Vunipola’s try ruled out incorrectly and time and again you could clearly hear leave it green repeated 4 times at a ruck but as soon as an England hand gets near it’s a penalty straight away.
Rant over.
That team looks like it’s finally the one Jones wants, tactical masterclass brilliantly executed and the defensive line was so fast, Ireland just got overwhelmed, the stats don’t lie our tackling seemed to push them back every single time, immense, bring on the frogs next Sunday.
Ahem.
Yeah, I knew you'd mentioned it, I just couldn't tell on the footage but that photo is pretty clear. certainly enough that the ref should've checked it.
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
That's a blow, he was immense on Saturday.
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
That's a blow, he was immense on Saturday.
From what I cna make out he might well be fit for the last game so, whilst it is shit, at the time I was worried about the world cup squad as it looked like a ligament injury.
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
That's a blow, he was immense on Saturday.
From what I cna make out he might well be fit for the last game so, whilst it is shit, at the time I was worried about the world cup squad as it looked like a ligament injury.
It is a ligament injury, but luckily it's his medial and not ACL, which is the one that keeps you out for months.
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
That's a blow, he was immense on Saturday.
From what I cna make out he might well be fit for the last game so, whilst it is shit, at the time I was worried about the world cup squad as it looked like a ligament injury.
It is a ligament injury, but luckily it's his medial and not ACL, which is the one that keeps you out for months.
yeah I meant ACL but i was rushing, also sounds like it's a comparatively minor one, a tear to the medial would still see him struggling to play again this season. I did my ACL about 13 years ago and it was about 7-8 months before I could walk a decent distance without pain, was at least a year before I could run. The worst thing was that it'd feel fine until you pushed too far and then you'd set yourself back. After 18 months I gave up on trying to get back to playing because it was just frustrating me too much. This is my first season back playing again since (I'm 39 and I'm fucked until about Tuesday every week) and it's fine now but I'm still really nervous of even the slightest twinge in it.
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I did mine when I was 37, even though it was a complete tear I was lucky as I had good stability. I saw a sports doctor/surgeon (he actually works for the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball team) and recommended I not get surgery because of my age, the increased chance of arthritis if I did, but also the good stability I was showing made me a good candidate to just rehab. 3 months of rehab and some general exercising and I was back playing after 4 months - won the golden boot that first year back! I realise not everyone is that lucky. I did wear a full brace for my first year back playing, it ends up being more of a comfort blanket than anything else to be honest. I'm 44 now and still going strong, although slowing down a bit now :-( Good luck!
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I did mine when I was 37, even though it was a complete tear I was lucky as I had good stability. I saw a sports doctor/surgeon (he actually works for the Pittsburgh Pirates baseball team) and recommended I not get surgery because of my age, the increased chance of arthritis if I did, but also the good stability I was showing made me a good candidate to just rehab. 3 months of rehab and some general exercising and I was back playing after 4 months - won the golden boot that first year back! I realise not everyone is that lucky. I did wear a full brace for my first year back playing, it ends up being more of a comfort blanket than anything else to be honest. I'm 44 now and still going strong, although slowing down a bit now :-( Good luck!
Mine was a bit more complicated because it was a complete tear of the ACL, a partial tear of the PCL and damage to the meniscus. I had 3 operations in total, the first was within a few days of doing it and they thought it would be enough to put it in a cast for a few week but as soon as the cast came off I couldn't put any weight on it. Next op was where the found the PCL damage and the attempt to do physio had reopened the ACL and then about 4-5 months later they had to do a 3rd one (which was minor) to clean up the damage to the meniscus. The doctor I saw the 2nd time (at the QE) was one of the top experts in the country and he said it was as bad as it gets before they start talking about life with a stick.
Worst thing is I don't know exactly how I did it, we went on honeymoon and it was uncomfortable for the entire time, to the point where we only left the poolside for the pre-booked excursions, and then the day after we got back my knee just collapsed as I was walking down the stairs, I fractured my wrist in the fall as well. :(
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That's really crappy. Hope it stays stable for you.
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That's really crappy. Hope it stays stable for you.
Has been ok for a while and I was able t run on it about 10 years ago but I kept putting off getting back into rugby because I just didn't know how it would hold up to contact. Then in th esummer my kids have started playing and I went along for a few weeks before they asked if I wanted to help with the coaching and within a couple of weeks I got the bug. Only played 8 games so far but has been going well, stopped playing as a centre who filled in on the openside and I've gone back playing 8 or 2nd row because I'm too fucking fat to play in the backs.
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
That's a blow, he was immense on Saturday.
Yes, had a great game, and more than likely his hand under the ball in the photo above.
Oh, well.
We'll just have to put another world class second row in
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Itoje out of 6 Nations.
That's a blow, he was immense on Saturday.
Yes, had a great game, and more than likely his hand under the ball in the photo above.
Oh, well.
We'll just have to put another world class second row in
Sounds like he's potentially only missing 2 games - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47130799 - that's unfortunate but as you say, we just bring Launchbury into the 23 and Lawes into the team, given Lawes would start for any other team in the world (in my opinion) I'm not going to be too upset over this.
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Lawes’ tackle, just after coming on, took any remaining wind out of the Irish sails. Massive hit.
The squad depth, particularly at second row, is phenomenal, second to none. The big question is how many players can improve to a world class standard in the next 6 months. In fact considering the time frame, it might be a question of getting enough players in world class form and coherent tactics.
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I think it’s more a case of keeping fingers cross that everyone be is fit come the World Cup. A full strength England can beat anyone.
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Highly unlikely that everyone will be fit bearing in mind the modern game, but we can hope.
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Highly unlikely that everyone will be fit bearing in mind the modern game, but we can hope.
I'd say there's a handful of players we NEED fit and after that we have options.
Mako
Itoje
Billy
Farrell
Those 4 are essential because we lose too much without them then we have a bunch where we have a couple of options:
Curry or Underhill
George or Hartley
Lawes or Launchbury (or Kruis to a lesser extent)
Manu or T'eo (so we can have that big carrier at 12 to force defences narrow)
Youngs or Robson (if w had to go in with a combination of Care and Wigglesworth I'd be nervous, 1 or the other as 2nd/3rd choice is ok)
After that we have 3-4 options at 3 and 6 that are all fairly close so we need a couple of those fit and finally you get to the wings and full back where we have an abundance of riches, I'd want Daly or Watson for Full Back but Coka, May, Nowell, Ashton and Thorley is a fantastic set of wingers and Watson and Daly are both still options there as well.
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I think a fit Manu has a big impact.
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I think a fit Manu has a big impact.
If he can stay fit and can adapt to what he's being asked to do against 'weaker' teams then I agree, he could easily move into the essential group, but I don't entirely trust him not to do something monumentally fucking stupid in the next 8-9 months and end up injured, banned or disgraced.
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Ashton starts and Nowell drops to the bench, strange one that. Lawes replaces Itoje in second row.
Can't wait for Sunday, should be a great game and I have a feeling France are going to get battered.
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Ashton starts and Nowell drops to the bench, strange one that. Lawes replaces Itoje in second row.
Can't wait for Sunday, should be a great game and I have a feeling France are going to get battered.
I suspect the Ashton change is because he's played a year in French rugby fairly recently so they're hoping he'll know how to target the French backline. I don't really agree with it though. There's also changes to the props on the bench with Cole and Moon coming in for Williams and Genge, I suspect this is to give us power in the scrum to counter the weight of the french pack.
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Wales are bang average, Biggar was shockingly poor, nowt to worry about there. Italy should have run them closer.
Greg Laidlaw really made some friends today as well.
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I thought Biggar was ok, it was Davies at 9 that I blamed for how poor they were, far too willing to let the forwards crash ineffectively into line after line of Italian defence.
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kick off then, prediction is england by more than 2 converted tries.
and there's the first try, fucking brilliance by Daly.
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Wow! What a fantastic half by England. Clearly done their homework by getting the ball in to the wide open spaces left in behind the French.
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The way to beat France was always going to be to tie them in and then go around the outside, with their pack and Basteraud they've just not got the mobility around the pitch so make things narrow for a couple of phases and you're always going to have space then with the sheer pace in the backline you'll score for fun.
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Dan Robson eventually gets his first England cap, about 2 years after he should've been given it.
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Nice to watch an England game knowing after just a few minutes gone they are going to win.
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I'm a bit gutted here, I said on my club whatsapp chat that this would be a 50 point game after the first 2 minutes but all the subs have broken the game up.
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Yep, battering the oppostion into such a lead was always going to see the intensity taken out of the last 20 minutes in fairness.
It has been two utterly dominant tactical masterclasses (in completely different ways) from England so far in this 6 nations. Ireland were very much flattered by the margin of victory in week 1.
From what i've seen of us and Wales so far, Wales would need to drastically improve and we would need to drastically regress for Wales to win.
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Although Wales usually play about 10% above themselves when they get a sight of the white shirt in Cardiff.
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We seemed to run out of ideas and steam a bit in the last 20, hitting 50 would have been nice.
I had my ref link in today and listening to Nigel Owens was an absolute treat, a master class in how to let a game run, well played Sir, you’ll be sorely missed.
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Wales are a funny side, I look at their team on paper and watch them play and see nothing to concern me, but they're on a superb run of victories at the minute and seem to be able to squeeze out victories despite the obvious flaws.
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We seemed to run out of ideas and steam a bit in the last 20, hitting 50 would have been nice.
I had my ref link in today and listening to Nigel Owens was an absolute treat, a master class in how to let a game run, well played Sir, you’ll be sorely missed.
I thought he had a marvellous game today. A couple of decisions could have gone either way but he had the presence to deal with the players in such a way that even potentially contentious decisions were handled with skill and authority. A top referee.
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We seemed to run out of ideas and steam a bit in the last 20, hitting 50 would have been nice.
I had my ref link in today and listening to Nigel Owens was an absolute treat, a master class in how to let a game run, well played Sir, you’ll be sorely missed.
We were out for lunch with Mrs S's siblings so I only got to see the second half in the hotel we were at. It was disappointing to see that they had the volume off and so I couldn't hear the commentary but more disappointing that I couldn't hear what Nigel Owens was saying. Nigel Owens has made me understand more about rugby than anyone and you are right Jon, he will be missed.
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We seemed to run out of ideas and steam a bit in the last 20, hitting 50 would have been nice.
I had my ref link in today and listening to Nigel Owens was an absolute treat, a master class in how to let a game run, well played Sir, you’ll be sorely missed.
We were out for lunch with Mrs S's siblings so I only got to see the second half in the hotel we were at. It was disappointing to see that they had the volume off and so I couldn't hear the commentary but more disappointing that I couldn't hear what Nigel Owens was saying. Nigel Owens has made me understand more about rugby than anyone and you are right Jon, he will be missed.
Deep,in the second half the French number 1 was lying injured on the ground awaiting the medics, Owens went over to him and asked him ‘are you ok young man? ‘Oui monsieuer’ came the reply then Owens said ‘Ooh rainbow laces, I like that’
Throughout the game he was constantly telling players and officials what he wanted and encouraging them with little pep talks especially in gaps in play. Can’t think of another referee I’ve heard do that.
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We seemed to run out of ideas and steam a bit in the last 20, hitting 50 would have been nice.
I had my ref link in today and listening to Nigel Owens was an absolute treat, a master class in how to let a game run, well played Sir, you’ll be sorely missed.
We were out for lunch with Mrs S's siblings so I only got to see the second half in the hotel we were at. It was disappointing to see that they had the volume off and so I couldn't hear the commentary but more disappointing that I couldn't hear what Nigel Owens was saying. Nigel Owens has made me understand more about rugby than anyone and you are right Jon, he will be missed.
Deep,in the second half the French number 1 was lying injured on the ground awaiting the medics, Owens went over to him and asked him ‘are you ok young man? ‘Oui monsieuer’ came the reply then Owens said ‘Ooh rainbow laces, I like that’
Throughout the game he was constantly telling players and officials what he wanted and encouraging them with little pep talks especially in gaps in play. Can’t think of another referee I’ve heard do that.
Wonderful.
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We seemed to run out of ideas and steam a bit in the last 20, hitting 50 would have been nice.
I had my ref link in today and listening to Nigel Owens was an absolute treat, a master class in how to let a game run, well played Sir, youll be sorely missed.
We were out for lunch with Mrs S's siblings so I only got to see the second half in the hotel we were at. It was disappointing to see that they had the volume off and so I couldn't hear the commentary but more disappointing that I couldn't hear what Nigel Owens was saying. Nigel Owens has made me understand more about rugby than anyone and you are right Jon, he will be missed.
Deep,in the second half the French number 1 was lying injured on the ground awaiting the medics, Owens went over to him and asked him are you ok young man? Oui monsieuer came the reply then Owens said Ooh rainbow laces, I like that
Throughout the game he was constantly telling players and officials what he wanted and encouraging them with little pep talks especially in gaps in play. Cant think of another referee Ive heard do that.
Wonderful.
If only footballers showed the same respect to refs!
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Owens is easily the best referee in the world and will be a huge loss. He was excellent today, handled the Farrell try superbly, handled the handbags brilliantly and was spot on with the penalty try and yellow card. He also did a great job with the scrums which led to the best set we've seen all tournament, I can only think of 1-2 that were reset and they were resolved quickly. Compare and contrast to the confused bullshit from Garces last week or the awful shite from Poite yesterday.
From and English point of view Carley and Pearce are both improving fast and look like they'll be very good refs in a couple of years and then Dickson will come through soon as well. Not sure about refs outside the English system though because I don't watch the other domestic games and the European competitions use the same set as the 6N.
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Owens is easily the best referee in the world and will be a huge loss. He was excellent today, handled the Farrell try superbly, handled the handbags brilliantly and was spot on with the penalty try and yellow card. He also did a great job with the scrums which led to the best set we've seen all tournament, I can only think of 1-2 that were reset and they were resolved quickly. Compare and contrast to the confused bullshit from Garces last week or the awful shite from Poite yesterday.
From and English point of view Carley and Pearce are both improving fast and look like they'll be very good refs in a couple of years and then Dickson will come through soon as well. Not sure about refs outside the English system though because I don't watch the other domestic games and the European competitions use the same set as the 6N.
Craig Maxwell-Keys must be getting close to a bigger international.
Always seems to be OK on the highlights
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Forgot him, yep, he's another who's doing a good job. I think the standard in the premiership is generally pretty solid, I'm just not a fan of Barnes, Doyle or Foley who are, unfortunately, 3 of the highest profile refs we have at the minute.
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Forgot him, yep, he's another who's doing a good job. I think the standard in the premiership is generally pretty solid, I'm just not a fan of Barnes, Doyle or Foley who are, unfortunately, 3 of the highest profile refs we have at the minute.
Have to admit I quite like Barnes, and Doyle seems pretty good (albeit only highlights)
I think when you're 'up against' Nigel Owens, though, you're always going to look average.
I thought Nige had a great game Sunday, rugby is going to miss him greatly
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Nowt wrong with Wayne
The fact that we went to the same school and I used to work with his father-in-law has nothing to do with my praise.
Back to Nigel. Here's an interview that he did last year. Fascinating stuff
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p064xrt0
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My problem with the 3 I've mentioned is they all have a couple of bad habits (most of the top refs have them unfortunately):
1. They don't really understand the scrum properly so if things aren't going well they either give the attacking a penalty or they just 'trade' penalties between the 2 teams until they sort things out themselves, this is one of the main reasons why the scrum is such a fucking mess in professional rugby.
2. They tend to 'reward' the team that's on top so sides that train to get early momentum tend to get the better of the 50/50 calls.
On Barnes in particular, I really want to like him but in addition to those 2 he also has a habit of judging the reputation rather than the incident which has caused him to give some really soft yellow and red cards.
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The moment captured
(https://i.ibb.co/YPWBsXN/BBB21-B43-9-C81-4-FA1-A0-A3-A2036-F13-CD48.png) (https://ibb.co/YPWBsXN)
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Some bloke moaned behind me that it was Owens. He was quickly put in his place by a few of us sitting around him. Excellent ref.
As for Wales, we will have enough to beat them, looking forward to it.
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Nigel could ref Wales v England in Cardiff and I don’t think anyone with any sense would mind
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BBC feature with my fellow Gloucester born Forester, Mo Hunt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/47123111
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Some bloke moaned behind me that it was Owens. He was quickly put in his place by a few of us sitting around him. Excellent ref.
As for Wales, we will have enough to beat them, looking forward to it.
You were in the cheap seats.
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Here we go, Mako out for the rest of the 6 Nations.
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Here we go, Mako out for the rest of the 6 Nations.
Massive blow as he's been immense in the first two games. We do have plenty of options in that position, but no one who can really match his physicality. It should only really be an issue for the Welsh game, as Italy and Scotland at home shouldn't pose too many problems.
We finally get our influential players all fit, and we lose two of them in the first two games. Whats the betting Billy Vunipola picks up a serious injury in training before the Wales game? Evens?
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10 weeks so will be back for the tail end of the season and then ready for the summer and world cup.
I think Moon and Genge are good backup options and both could do with gametime so this may actually work out well for us.
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Unleash the Genge monster.
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Ashton out now :o
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Ashton out now :o
No great loss, Nowell into the team, Cokanasiga onto the bench, we're probably better suited to play wales with that anyway.
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John Terry has been with the England team today giving a pep talk. Hopefully it’s better than the ones he does on Villa match days.
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Nowell & Moon in for Ashton & Vunipola for Saturday.
15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 27 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 31 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 19 caps), 12 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 29 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 42 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 67 caps) (captain), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 82 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 34 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 19 caps), 4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 70 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 29 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 10 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 7 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 38 caps).
England win by 15.
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If we win by 15 that’ll be a hell of a display.
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England attack v Wales defence, my moneys on England all day long.
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If we win by 15 that’ll be a hell of a display.
a lad I know reckons 20+ but I'm with you Paul around 10/15 would be a great result.
UTV
The Doc
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I have England by 12 or more so I'm in about the same ball park, I just think we have so much pace out wide that teams run a risk of exposing themselves if they try to defend tight against our fringe runners but if you don't the likes of George, Manu, Sinckler and Billy will turn you around easily. You can't even rush defend because with Farrell, Daly and Slade we can kick you out of the game if you leave gaps in behind, all in we're just a really difficult team to handle right now.
I suspect Wales will try to win the breakdown and starve us of quick ball but Kruis, Lawes, Curry and Wilson are very good at securing possession so even that is a tough task.
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Can't wait for this. I think England will be utterly barbaric up front which will set the tone and give a platform.
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Good performance from France, Demba Bamba has been excellent and Ntamack looks like he's settling in.
Scotland have been poor, I've long thought that Russell is a class above the rest of that team and today shows why, they've had no cutting edge without him.
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Brutal start to this one, Lawes is having a very good 30th birthday.
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Bloody hell, that was as you say, brutal. England seem to find a way to punish the tiniest of mistakes.
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Good performance from France, Demba Bamba has been excellent and Ntamack looks like he's settling in.
Scotland have been poor, I've long thought that Russell is a class above the rest of that team and today shows why, they've had no cutting edge without him.
Scotland are awful without their main players. Not a big fan of Russell, but, I agree, they've no edge without him.
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There's 3-4 outstanding performances so far, sinckler, lawes, curry and Billy V are the 4 best players on the pitch and it's making the difference.
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Worrying start to the 2nd half, being dragged down to their level.
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And our discipline appears to be abandoning us.
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Farrell had had a really poor game so far by his standards
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Just need to get a grip. Wales aren't causing a threat themselves. We'll only lose this by throwing it away
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And there we go, a poor knock on leads to all that. Jones needs to change this
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Abysmal 2nd half performance. What the hell changed at half time?
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Watch about 2 minutes being wasted on this scrum
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Fucking dreadful second half.
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Got what we've deserved for as bad a half of Rugby we've played under Eddie Jones.
Simply not good enough.
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Farrell is normally exceptional, but he’s had a shocking game.
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You've got to give massive credit to Wales, they not only managed to stop England playing, they also got points on the board. England can have no complaints.
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Sinckler cost us that without a shadow of a doubt, clearly Gatland targeted him and it paid off.
That said, Jones’s subs were fucking abysmal, players were out on their feet after 60 minutes and he makes wholesale changes with 5 to go. Shit.
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2nd half they broke things up and appealed for everything and we just didn't adapt to how slow things got.
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England need to learn to convert dominance into points in tight games. Also not a big revelation but Itoje and Mako are huge misses.
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You've got to give massive credit to Wales, they not only managed to stop England playing, they also got points on the board. England can have no complaints.
England stopped themselves playing by kicking (extremely poorly) on pretty much the 1st or 2nd phase all second half. I (perhaps naively) thought that the coaching staff would have been working on other tactics than what we saw for the France game. Players like Liam Williams and George North aren't going to be as defensively woeful as Huget was. We didn't adapt, and in fairness didn't look like we were trying to adapt.
Wales raised their intensity after half time. What we shouldn't have done so easily was allow ours to drop.
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Poor second half from England, got what they deserved
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Brilliant match. Kept them narrow, brought on Biggar then went wide. Didn't let England kick into space to attack.
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Poor second half from England, got what they deserved
It was beyond poor. There's been some awful stuff under Jones the last couple of years, but that 2nd half is probably the worst we've been.
For instance how many times did Manu touch the ball in the game? One of the only times he did he beat two defenders and gained about 45 metres. So I don't know why we insisted on kicking so much when it was patently obvious it wasn't working. It's almost as if our coaching staff and players didn't realise that someone as world class under the high ball as Liam Williams isn't going to be as bad as Henshaw for Ireland or Huget for France. It obviously didn't help that Youngs and Farrell had such poor games in that regard.
We clearly have a squad of players that could potentially compete for a world cup, but it won't if we refuse to change a gameplan when it becomes clear during the match that its toilet.
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Indeed, I'm still knackered from watching it. Despite the victory today, I still fancy Ireland to beat Wales on the 16th.
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Brilliant match. Kept them narrow, brought on Biggar then went wide. Didn't let England kick into space to attack.
Wales did ok, but England lost the game rather than Wales winning it. I don’t mean that to be antagonist or disrespectful at all. Wales capitalised really well, but England were below par. It also showed how important Farrell is, he was off his game and the team’s game dropped a lot.
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Brilliant match. Kept them narrow, brought on Biggar then went wide. Didn't let England kick into space to attack.
Wales did ok, but England lost the game rather than Wales winning it. I don’t mean that to be antagonist or disrespectful at all. Wales capitalised really well, but England were below par. It also showed how important Farrell is, he was off his game and the team’s game dropped a lot.
I agree with you, that's what I found frustrating, Williams did his job well but otherwise I don't think Wales had to do anything special to win the game. England needed to play a few phases before putting the kicks through but they let Wales manipulate them into kicking early, all Wales had to do was over-commit to 1 breakdown and then appeal for anything around it and England panicked and kicked the ball away.
I don't think Farrell was the one who was off his game though, he misplaced a kick or 2 but the ball he got was shit and that was mostly because Youngs had a truly awful match, he was the one that the Welsh got to, a few well timed shoves in the ruck and Youngs just didn't want to know. On top of that I think Wales played the ref far better (in part because they had a captain who was at the breakdowns whereas ours was stood off at first receiver, this is why I like a forward as captain), when I talk about them appealing for everything I do't mean it as a negative as such, it's that everything they could paint as foul play by England they made sure he saw it once he got it into his head that they were trying to play and we were stifling them by skirting the edge of the rules they were always going to get the rub.
In the post match interviews Farrell said enough for me to think that he saw the same problems I did so hopefully he'll take that back and it's something we'll work on. After being pissed off at the end of the game I'm now of the view that I'm glad this happened during the 6N because someone was always going to try to disrupt our game like this and hopefully we can learn from it. Aside from that we haven't beaten Wales in the nations cup (in it's various formats) during a year ending with a 9 in about forever so I'll take this one as fate and go with battering the fuckers next time.
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Yes I’d still say England are much better shouts (if key players are fit) for the World Cup than Wales. England’s best game can probably beat anyone in the world.
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Yes I’d still say England are much better shouts (if key players are fit) for the World Cup than Wales. England’s best game can probably beat anyone in the world.
You probably said that in 2015 ;)
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Can someone explain why we kicked so often and so poorly.
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Can someone explain why we kicked so often and so poorly.
No plan B. When it works it's brilliant but yesterday it was abysmal.
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It’s about being able to adapt. It was obvious Liam Williams was going to catch everything in the air, but we kept bloody kicking it to him.
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Can someone explain why we kicked so often and so poorly.
No plan B. When it works it's brilliant but yesterday it was abysmal.
It reminds me of other England teams that have bottled it in the past, just kept kicking it away at every occasion.
I have allways believed that the box kick is a massively over used tactic as was the case yesterday.
The drive just before half time when Farrell went for the spectacular was the game,if England come away from that drive with points we win.
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Can someone explain why we kicked so often and so poorly.
No plan B. When it works it's brilliant but yesterday it was abysmal.
It reminds me of other England teams that have bottled it in the past, just kept kicking it away at every occasion.
I have allways believed that the box kick is a massively over used tactic as was the case yesterday.
The drive just before half time when Farrell went for the spectacular was the game,if England come away from that drive with points we win.
Toby Flood was a classic example of that, time after time, game after game he'd just hoof it away aimlessly straight down the full backs throat, yesterdays second half was just like watching Flood all over again.
I'd still fancy England for the title, Ireland won't make the same mistakes we made and to be honest Wales are bang average.
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That average team haven't lost a game for a year to this day and made England look one dimensional.
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Wakes are a good side, but I think home advantage is massive for them probably more than any team.
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That average team haven't lost a game for a year to this day and made England look one dimensional.
England made themselves look one dimensional, Wales had nothing to do with that aspect of the game.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-havent-beaten-anybody-note-15822630
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One thing that I noticed about Wales, that really cheesed me off as an Englishman was watching the line-out form, then watch their hooker sneak a half-pace to the left and then bitch and moan about England encroaching. He must have done it 3/4 times.
England also seemed to be trying the All Blacks trick of pretending blatantly forward passes are flat. Only problem is we get pinged for it.
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That average team haven't lost a game for a year to this day and made England look one dimensional.
England made themselves look one dimensional, Wales had nothing to do with that aspect of the game.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-havent-beaten-anybody-note-15822630
Nothing at all...ok.
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Its unfair to say Wales didn't influence the result at all. It was noticeable that during the build up to their first try, their forwards wised up to the English tactic of committing no one to the ruck, and picked and rolled from the base of the ruck numerous times. They also realised that England had zero intention of keeping ball in hand, so adapted their defence accordingly.
I will say that I think for how shambolic France were against us, in the 2nd half on Saturday we were not far off that level of ineptitude and point blank refusal to adapt to what the opposition was showing us. Jones, the coaching staff, Farrell and other established players have to shoulder a lot of the blame for that.
Overall? I think Wales are a decent side that equate to greater than the sum of their parts. England, besides the odd performance here and there equate to lesser than the sum of their parts. It's been systemic in English rugby for years. One grand slam since 2003 with the player pool and resources of the RFU is a woeful return.
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Its unfair to say Wales didn't influence the result at all. It was noticeable that during the build up to their first try, their forwards wised up to the English tactic of committing no one to the maul, and picked and rolled from the base of the maul numerous times. They also realised that England had zero intention of keeping ball in hand, so adapted their defence accordingly.
I will say that I think for how shambolic France were against us, in the 2nd half on Saturday we were not far off that level of ineptitude and point blank refusal to adapt to what the opposition was showing us. Jones, the coaching staff, Farrell and other established players have to shoulder a lot of the blame for that.
Overall? I think Wales are a decent side that equate to greater than the sum of their parts. England, besides the odd performance here and there equate to lesser than the sum of their parts. It's been systemic in English rugby for years. One grand slam since 2003 with the player pool and resources of the RFU is a woeful return.
I'm not sure on the last point, I think grand slams are going to be a lot rarer going forward because the intensity of the games is so high that every team can have an off day.
On the specifics of that try, live i thought Liam Williams should've been penalised (and the game taken back for a Welsh penalty) about 3-4 phases before they scored. Watching it back I'm certain of it.
About 10-11 seconds in, Nowell tackles him and the tackle is clearly completed, Williams gets back to his feet, then places the ball on the floor and picks it back up again before rolling forward a few yards. He has to release before he gets to his feet not after, it's piss poor that the everyone ignored it. It might not change the result as they'd have had a penalty right in front of the posts but it's the sort of error that happens far too often from some referees.
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Its unfair to say Wales didn't influence the result at all. It was noticeable that during the build up to their first try, their forwards wised up to the English tactic of committing no one to the ruck, and picked and rolled from the base of the ruck numerous times. They also realised that England had zero intention of keeping ball in hand, so adapted their defence accordingly.
I will say that I think for how shambolic France were against us, in the 2nd half on Saturday we were not far off that level of ineptitude and point blank refusal to adapt to what the opposition was showing us. Jones, the coaching staff, Farrell and other established players have to shoulder a lot of the blame for that.
Overall? I think Wales are a decent side that equate to greater than the sum of their parts. England, besides the odd performance here and there equate to lesser than the sum of their parts. It's been systemic in English rugby for years. One grand slam since 2003 with the player pool and resources of the RFU is a woeful return.
I think I agree with that.
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Its unfair to say Wales didn't influence the result at all. It was noticeable that during the build up to their first try, their forwards wised up to the English tactic of committing no one to the maul, and picked and rolled from the base of the maul numerous times. They also realised that England had zero intention of keeping ball in hand, so adapted their defence accordingly.
I will say that I think for how shambolic France were against us, in the 2nd half on Saturday we were not far off that level of ineptitude and point blank refusal to adapt to what the opposition was showing us. Jones, the coaching staff, Farrell and other established players have to shoulder a lot of the blame for that.
Overall? I think Wales are a decent side that equate to greater than the sum of their parts. England, besides the odd performance here and there equate to lesser than the sum of their parts. It's been systemic in English rugby for years. One grand slam since 2003 with the player pool and resources of the RFU is a woeful return.
I'm not sure on the last point, I think grand slams are going to be a lot rarer going forward because the intensity of the games is so high that every team can have an off day.
On the specifics of that try, live i thought Liam Williams should've been penalised (and the game taken back for a Welsh penalty) about 3-4 phases before they scored. Watching it back I'm certain of it.
About 10-11 seconds in, Nowell tackles him and the tackle is clearly completed, Williams gets back to his feet, then places the ball on the floor and picks it back up again before rolling forward a few yards. He has to release before he gets to his feet not after, it's piss poor that the everyone ignored it. It might not change the result as they'd have had a penalty right in front of the posts but it's the sort of error that happens far too often from some referees.
...on the other hand you were awarded a pen after 2 minutes for a perfectly good tackle ( with arms ). Peypar makes strange decisions every time I see him.
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Its unfair to say Wales didn't influence the result at all. It was noticeable that during the build up to their first try, their forwards wised up to the English tactic of committing no one to the maul, and picked and rolled from the base of the maul numerous times. They also realised that England had zero intention of keeping ball in hand, so adapted their defence accordingly.
I will say that I think for how shambolic France were against us, in the 2nd half on Saturday we were not far off that level of ineptitude and point blank refusal to adapt to what the opposition was showing us. Jones, the coaching staff, Farrell and other established players have to shoulder a lot of the blame for that.
Overall? I think Wales are a decent side that equate to greater than the sum of their parts. England, besides the odd performance here and there equate to lesser than the sum of their parts. It's been systemic in English rugby for years. One grand slam since 2003 with the player pool and resources of the RFU is a woeful return.
I'm not sure on the last point, I think grand slams are going to be a lot rarer going forward because the intensity of the games is so high that every team can have an off day.
On the specifics of that try, live i thought Liam Williams should've been penalised (and the game taken back for a Welsh penalty) about 3-4 phases before they scored. Watching it back I'm certain of it.
About 10-11 seconds in, Nowell tackles him and the tackle is clearly completed, Williams gets back to his feet, then places the ball on the floor and picks it back up again before rolling forward a few yards. He has to release before he gets to his feet not after, it's piss poor that the everyone ignored it. It might not change the result as they'd have had a penalty right in front of the posts but it's the sort of error that happens far too often from some referees.
...on the other hand you were awarded a pen after 2 minutes for a perfectly good tackle ( with arms ). Peypar makes strange decisions every time I see him.
I agree that was a shocking decision but that wasn't Peypar, it came from the TV official. I added the link above mainly because I was really pissed off about it at the time and I couldn't remember if I bitched about him on here.
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Hopefully now the Grand Slam has gone Jones will look forward to the World Cup and give Robson proper time, preferably starts for rest of 6N.
As it stands he will revert to type and end up bottling it at WC & going with Youngs & Care which is average for me. Always thought Youngs looks class as a replacement but bog standard when starting - if (big if) we had a world class 9 to start and Youngs to finish would feel more confident.
Rest of the back line picks itself with Tuilagi / Te’o (even though Mills is actually Worcester’s best English 12 lol) alternating at 12
Unfortunately Ford will remain in the main 23 but we have to cross everything that Farrell stays fit for next few months
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I don't think he knows what he wants in centres, we had years of him picking a creative option at 12 and, effectively, an extra winger at 13 and now he's gone completely the opposite way and put a creator at 13 and a wreaking ball at 12.
He's also currently got Devoto with the squad who struggles to get into the Exeter team and wouldn't work in the current game plan at all and he's ignoring Marchant who is the best English centre in the league right now.
He did the same with the back row, picking 2 6.5s in Haskell and Robshaw for a couple of years before going to a much more traditional 6 and 7 in the last few months but then picking Shields despite him not being remotely settled in English rugby.
I agree with you at 9, what I find particularly weird with that is Robson was the best 9 in Europe for 2 seasons and didn't get a sniff, this season he's had injury problems and struggled to get fit and in form for Wasps and suddenly he's in the 23.
I just find Jones very stubborn in his decision making, once he's decided a player doesn't fit he refuses to admit he was wrong, Cipriani is a brilliant example, ignored him for a couple of years, eventually relented and gave him a chance where he was superb and then ignored him again.
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World League
First that I've read about this plan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47398739
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The version of this which is currently proposed is fucking shit, it's nothing more than a cash grab by the bigger unions and world rugby at the expense of player welfare and developing nations.
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The version of this which is currently proposed is fucking shit, it's nothing more than a cash grab by the bigger unions and world rugby at the expense of player welfare and developing nations.
Strikes me as similar to the way that the ICC has excluded developing nations from competitions
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The version of this which is currently proposed is fucking shit, it's nothing more than a cash grab by the bigger unions and world rugby at the expense of player welfare and developing nations.
Strikes me as similar to the way that the ICC has excluded developing nations from competitions
Pretty much, but with the addition of thinking it would be ok for an NH team to play USA, SA and NZ away on consecutive weekends.
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Itoje back for Italy game.
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I like the concept of the International League, but it has to have inclusion based on merit and include promotion and relegation.
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I like the concept of the International League, but it has to have inclusion based on merit and include promotion and relegation.
Yep, also needs to take rest periods into account and not add games to the season. The very best players are hitting near 35 games a season and that's hard to sustain without picking up injuries. It's a big part of why England aren't hitting the heights they should.
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They already play at least three Summer (Southern Hemisphere winter) and four Autumn games, don't they? Just get rid of them and you don't need to add games. Not sure how it would work with the Four Nations teams as can't see them being willing to sacrifice their home and away games against each other.
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They already play at least three Summer (Southern Hemisphere winter) and four Autumn games, don't they? Just get rid of them and you don't need to add games. Not sure how it would work with the Four Nations teams as can't see them being willing to sacrifice their home and away games against each other.
The problem is that the championship games would be away for the NH teams, meaning you could be drawn to play America, SA and Japan on consecutive weekends. On top of that you're adding games for the finals. If unions want to support the likes of Fiji, Georgia, etc then they become yet more games.I'd say extend it out and make them small divisions spread over 7-8 divisions and including almost anyone who wants to join with relegation and promotion.
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You shouldn't be adding extra games for Fiji and Georgia, both are in the top twelve in the World Rankings so should be in the league on merit.
As for playing games in different continents, it's not that different to what South African Pro14 teams or the Japanese/Argie teams do in the Super Rugby. Sure you could iron such problems out, anyway.
The extra games for the finals might be an issue, agreed.
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Robshaw back in the squad, no way he gets in ahead of Wilson surely.
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Robshaw back in the squad, no way he gets in ahead of Wilson surely.
I'd be amazed if he's in the 23, Wilson has been superb and you'd have Hughes and Shields ahead as 'impact' options, one or the other will be on the bench.
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Itoje back for Italy game.
Or maybe not. Injured again in training.
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Does it matter? They could stick me in and still beat Italy by thirty points.
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If Itoje isn't fit the selection will offer an interesting insight into how Jones thinks. The safe option is Kruis and Launchbury with Ewels on the bench but you lose the mobility that Lawes and Itoje offer. The braver choice would be to put Hughes, Wilson or Shields in there and keep the '4th back row' shape to the pack. Hughes in with Launchbury and Kruis on the bench would be my choice because Hughes and Launchbury play at club level together so would hopefully know each other well enough to make it work.
9 is the bigger decision though, Robson has to start if we intend for him to be part of the world cup as anything more than squad cover.
I'd start Cokanasiga as well, again he needs the experience if we want to use him in the world cup, I'd think about keeping Thorley around for the bench as well and giving May a break.
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Does it matter? They could stick me in and still beat Italy by thirty points.
Not against Italy but yet again an England player is injured in training, they're like Villa players, dropping like flies!
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Does it matter? They could stick me in and still beat Italy by thirty points.
Not against Italy but yet again an England player is injured in training, they're like Villa players, dropping like flies!
England had a major problem a couple of years ago but it sounds like this one was just a case of him upping the intensity of training too quickly after his injury.
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I'm going to Twickenham for the first time on Saturday. I shall resist the urge to call it Twickers or HQ.
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I think the correct term is "Twick-Q".
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Enjoy, I’ve been a couple of times and always enjoyed it.
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I'm going to Twickenham for the first time on Saturday. I shall resist the urge to call it Twickers or HQ.
See you there, I'm going with DB of this parish. I've sold my seats for the Scotland game to chelts.
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5 changes to the team that started against Wales, Cokanasiga starts as does Te'o, Genge, Launchbury & Shields.
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5 changes to the team that started against Wales, Cokanasiga starts as does Te'o, Genge, Launchbury & Shields.
T'eo in for Slade is a fucking horrible call, manu and t'eo as the midfield.
Not picking Robson to start is even worse, Jones is right stubborn fucker at times.
Shields and Genge are changes I can support, they both need gametime and Launchbury was the obvious choice to come into the 2nd row.
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5 changes to the team that started against Wales, Cokanasiga starts as does Te'o, Genge, Launchbury & Shields.
T'eo in for Slade is a fucking horrible call, manu and t'eo as the midfield.
Not picking Robson to start is even worse, Jones is right stubborn fucker at times.
Shields and Genge are changes I can support, they both need gametime and Launchbury was the obvious choice to come into the 2nd row.
I was having that same conversation with a mate last night. Not giving Robson a couple of starts could come back to haunt England in the RWC.
Not surprise that Thorley has been overlooked again. He was in great form at the start of the year but hasn't stood out in the past couple of Glawster games I've seen.
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That was supposed to say that I'm really not a fan of manu and t'eo as the midfield. They're too similar and I can see May and Cokanasiga struggling to get the ball in space.
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Expect even more kicking than before
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The 15 for the game against Italy isn't exactly abundant in subtlety. Can't see the ball going wide much.
Jones must really have something against Dan Robson for him not to start in a game like this.
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Expect even more kicking than before
Given we have Manu and Teo as our 12 & 13 I can see us doing crash ball a fair bit a lot all game :-\
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Expect even more kicking than before
Given we have Manu and Teo as our 12 & 13 I can see us doing crash ball a fair bit a lot all game :-\
And coka on the wing, and genge into the front row. It's got crash running from every angle written all over it. It's almost like he's heard the criticism about kicking from the Wales game and gone completely the other way.
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Bloody hell, Scotland are poor.
Edit,
Finally they do something decent to score
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Wales defended very well 2nd half, aided by some very silly scottish mistakes close to the Welsh line.
Think Wales will get the slam now, as Ireland have shown nowhere near their form of this time last year.
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Can’t turn your nose up at running in 50 points but bloody hell we made her work of that, still trying to work out what the strategy and tactics were because from the stands nobody really knew.
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Wales defended very well 2nd half, aided by some very silly scottish mistakes close to the Welsh line.
Think Wales will get the slam now, as Ireland have shown nowhere near their form of this time last year.
To think Wales could get the slam and still finish 2nd due to bonus points and try scored
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Don’t think that can happen if a team gets a slam.
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Correct. They'll get three bonus points if they win the slam.
Games against Italy are boring. It's the equivalent of playing San Marino in qualifiers. Guaranteed win, just by how many. Really thought they might have improved in nearly 20 years but if anything they're further behind.
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First visit to Twickenham yesterday. Dull game in a training ground atmosphere. Good bars in the ground but getting back to central London afterwards is horrendous. Much worse than Wembley.
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Correct. They'll get three bonus points if they win the slam.
Games against Italy are boring. It's the equivalent of playing San Marino in qualifiers. Guaranteed win, just by how many. Really thought they might have improved in nearly 20 years but if anything they're further behind.
Ahh, didn't realise about the 3 bonus for the slam.
Shame really as me and my mates were have a good giggle at the prospect of them winning the slam with no bonus points and we pip them to the championship on the back of our bonus points and trys scored.
Thanks for ruining that wonderful thought, Meanwood 😂
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Sorry about that, will need the Irish to do us a favour next week instead!
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First visit to Twickenham yesterday. Dull game in a training ground atmosphere. Good bars in the ground but getting back to central London afterwards is horrendous. Much worse than Wembley.
The new Twickenham is a monstrous concrete carbuncle, as Prince Brian might put it.
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Half-time in the Ireland-France match. So far, I cannot remember a single more dominant display by one Tier 1 nation over another. A stat flashed up on French TV just before the break - France spent 5 seconds with the ball in the Irish 22 all half.
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Really good first half from the Irish but the first try should never have been allowed, he was clearly tackled, knee to the floor and then stands back up to score.
Sexton's try was superb but awful defence, Ringrose fluffed an absolute sitter, knocking on as you'e sliding over to score is unforgivable.
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Correct. They'll get three bonus points if they win the slam.
Games against Italy are boring. It's the equivalent of playing San Marino in qualifiers. Guaranteed win, just by how many. Really thought they might have improved in nearly 20 years but if anything they're further behind.
Italy should have to take part in a two-legged play-off against Georgia for a spot in next season's 6 Nations
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Correct. They'll get three bonus points if they win the slam.
Games against Italy are boring. It's the equivalent of playing San Marino in qualifiers. Guaranteed win, just by how many. Really thought they might have improved in nearly 20 years but if anything they're further behind.
Italy should have to take part in a two-legged play-off against Georgia for a spot in next season's 6 Nations
It's difficult because if you drop them down the impact on their funding would be massive and they'd fall further behind, but, as you say, other nations deserve a chance as well. This is why I think they need to expand on the international league idea to include more teams. The real issue is that no one wants to lose the championship or the 6nations and everyone likes the current setup of the autumn internationals so there's very little scope to add room for the developing nations.
My solution for the next 4 years would be:
Add a 2nd tier to the 6N and championship.
Adjust the 3 years of Autumn internationals to be 2 teams from the championship and 1 each from the 2nd tier competitions, with no duplicated fixtures in the 3 year cycle. That means you'll still get the big England v NZ game but it would be mixed with games against sides like Fiji/Samoa/Tonga and Georgia/Romania/Canada. The July tests could then be 2 more development style fixtures against the t2 sides and a 'playoff' between the 6N (t1 and t2) and championship (t1 and t2) in finishing order (first v first, etc) all the way down both leagues. Again this would cover 3 July windows with the 4th Autumn window being the world cup and the 4th July window being the Lions tour (and I'd look at way to expand this to more nations as, but without changing the main 3 tests).
How you'd handle promotion and relegation between the 2 tiers would need to be discussed (but would be on a 4 year cycle) and there would need to be a big commercial focus on the t2 competitions to bring them up in standard but it would give a lot more teams a chance to play against the big sides (even if it was largely 'b' teams initially) and show that expanding the game is at the heart of the changes.
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That's what I'd like to see as well. The problem comes when one of the non-Italy members of the 6N has a bad competition and bad playoff and gets relegated. I can't see anything getting voted thro' that allows for that possibility.
Although I think that jeopardy would be great
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That's what I'd like to see as well. The problem comes when one of the non-Italy members of the 6N has a bad competition and bad playoff and gets relegated. I can't see anything getting voted thro' that allows for that possibility.
Although I think that jeopardy would be great
You mean Scotland.
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I was trying to be polite :)
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Ireland have been shambolic. Probably made more basic errors in this one half than they have the whole of the last two years. Wales 16-0 up and have had to do nothing for tha scoreline.
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They obviously don't want to ruin St Patrick's weekend by allowing England to win the championship ;-)
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I think they may have been exposed this 6 nations. Outclassed and overpowered by England, mediocre against Scotland and Italy, and now completely outdisciplined by Wales.
Wales look a solid team with great defensive discipline, and England besides a unfathomable 2nd half in Cardiff appear to bave a lot of potential (if they don't refuse to adapt to changing circumstances again).
Those two will have the most chance of the NH teams in the World Cup
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A Slam and 3 pts, what a day.
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Great start with a try after 68 seconds
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Just the three tries in the first 15 minutes then
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Just the three tries in the first 15 minutes then
Scotland aren't having any of it this half.
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WTF is happening here?
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WTF is happening here?
Hell of a game.
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Is this really happening?
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Poor, poor,poor.
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That will go down in history.
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Desperately embarrassing.
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Awful 2nd half from England, this and the Welsh game are where Hartley as captain is better than Farrell.
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Yep there’s a clear leadership deficit when things start to shift against us.
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Awful 2nd half from England, this and the Welsh game are where Hartley as captain is better than Farrell.
Hartley might be a better captain but he’s not worth a place in the squad as hooker.
I managed to avoid hearing both results and have just watched the games. Two cracking matches to end the 6N.
Wales were magnificent, especially given the the positional changes they made when North went off. Still not sure why they didn’t just put a replacement in the wing.
Shame that Scotland couldn’t hang in for the win.
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Awful 2nd half from England, this and the Welsh game are where Hartley as captain is better than Farrell.
Hartley might be a better captain but he’s not worth a place in the squad as hooker.
I managed to avoid hearing both results and have just watched the games. Two cracking matches to end the 6N.
Wales were magnificent, especially given the the positional changes they made when North went off. Still not sure why they didn’t just put a replacement in the wing.
Shame that Scotland couldn’t hang in for the win.
I agree, but that's the conundrum we have right now, our only genuine leader is breaking apart and probably doesn't deserve his place in the squad any more.
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They appear the lack ownership for decision making in the field. Had there been leadership on the field they would have realised they needed to shut the game down for 10/15 mins when Scotland were getting up a head of steam.
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They appear the lack ownership for decision making in the field. Had there been leadership on the field they would have realised they needed to shut the game down for 10/15 mins when Scotland were getting up a head of steam.
Yep they came out playing expansive after half time and we tried to match them when what was need was playing for territory and taking the pace out of the game.
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Got to give Scotland credit. In the 2nd half they found a level far far beyond anything they'd shown in the tournament to that point. Finn Russell in particular was brilliant.
That said, i can't quite believe how much we switched off. The defence at the start of the campaign was encouraging, but its now back to the pathetic standard it was under Gustard.
We score a lot of points and have wonderful attacking options, but until we find a functional defence, the dream of a qorld cup win will remain just that.
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Scotland are great if you let them play expansive rugby. They did really well, but fucking hell we gave them the platform.
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It was like a game against the Barbarians in the second half. The amount of stupid, wild passes we threw was ridiculous. My mood was not enhanced by having two fuckers playing bagpipes a couple of rows in front.
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There's more info about the nations championship today - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47639897
Removing the semi-final and confirming promotion and relegation are big steps but I'd like to see a lot more info before I like it. I have massive reservations with annual promotion and relegation, I think you'd end up with 3-4 teams yoyo-ing constantly just like you see in the domestic game because the difference between the top 8-10 sides and the rest is far too wide.
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It was like a game against the Barbarians in the second half. The amount of stupid, wild passes we threw was ridiculous. My mood was not enhanced by having two fuckers playing bagpipes a couple of rows in front.
I had that arranged especially for you. Hope you liked it.
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Have I heard correctly that Eddie Jones has got the Lions in S Africa job?
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Have I heard correctly that Eddie Jones has got the Lions in S Africa job?
Not heard that. It would seem highly unlikely as only a couple of weeks ago, Jones described the job as that of an ambassador and said: “The last thing I want to do is spend eight weeks in a blazer,”
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Folau fired by NSW and Rugby Australia
About time. He really does seem to be a nasty piece of work
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47893542
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on Instagram that "drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists and idolaters" should "repent" because "only Jesus saves", and made similar remarks on Twitter.
He doesn't like many people does he ?? what a charmer
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What an absolute moron.
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Billy Vunipola has decided to get involved in the situation too.
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He’s an idiot as well. It’s especially stupid given the obvious perception of Folau’s post.
There is zero justification for saying someone of a particular sexual orientation must “repent” or go to hell. It’s completely unacceptable.
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Billy Vunipola has decided to get involved in the situation too.
We need to do a head count on the amount of ignorant wankers there are kicking around. We best get started. There's a lot to get through.
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Just seen Folau’s latest comments, he really does sound like an absolute lunatic.
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Urgh Mako sounding doubtful for the World Cup.
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Urgh Mako sounding doubtful for the World Cup.
He should be fine but will be a bit short on match fitness but given the way the group works out for us he'll have the easier games against Tonga and USA to be eased back in and should be ready to go by the time we Argentina in early October.
Just seen Folau’s latest comments, he really does sound like an absolute lunatic.
The complete lack of understanding about how he's created the problem is scary, I just don't know how you can be an international sportsman for as long as he has been and still have no idea about your responsibilities to uphold the moral standards of the sport/union. Fucking idiot.
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Great game today between Chiefs and Crusaders.
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England playing Australia in the U20s needing a win. Leading 14-0 after 10 with an aussie red card in the 2nd minute.
As I'm typing Australia get a try back. This England team are great going forward but they make a huge amount of defensive errors.
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Missed the score from the earlier game, England finish 3rd whatever happens here but will go into the bottom half of the draw.
That said 42-12 up at half time and playing some fantastic rugby. It being against 14 men helps but there's still some fantastic attacking play on show.
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England world cup training squad was announced today, Mostly happy with it, but it's a bit harsh to leave out Hughes who had a great last couple of months to the season, I'd have him instead of Shields who I've been very disappointed with for Wasps and England. I'm glad they've stuck with Ludlam, he's fantastic at the breakdown and along with Curry, Underhill and Itoje I think we could see that area become a real strength, after years of having no one able to do the job.
However the situation at 9 is pathetic. Jones spent 3 1/2 years picking Youngs, Wigglesworth and Care and not giving anyone else a chance, only to now drop 2 of them and leave us with 3cap Ben Spencer (who is just a Wigglesworth clone and will just be a box kicker if he gets in) and uncapped Willi Heinz (who's 32) as the backup options. If you're going for inexperience why not at least go with players who will benefit longer term (Mitchell would be my choice but there's 4-5 other U25 9s in the league I'd pick ahead of either of these pair). Robson, I suspect, is out because they're worried about his fitness, which is understandable, but he should still be in the camp (like Mako and Kruis who are there to get fit).
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Shields is dross.
I didn’t realise Marley had reversed his decision.
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Given that Heinz has never got a look in previously, I'd always assumed that he wasn't eligible for England
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Given that Heinz has never got a look in previously, I'd always assumed that he wasn't eligible for England
I think he has an English grandparent, he got added to a squad or 2 in the 6N last year as well but ended up being released back to the club.
To be clear, I've got nothing against Heinz, I think he's been a good addition at Glaws. Where I have massive issues is with taking an uncapped 32 year in this late before a world cup, if he goes he'll sit on the bench in the world cup and then probably never see another squad. Robson, Mitchell, Maunder and Vellacott (probably in that order on form in the last 12-18 months) would all be ahead of him to do that (for me) because they would be around for 2023 (at least) and we're looking painfully inexperienced at 9 once Youngs retires (which will happen before the next world cup in my opinion.
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Blacks v Boks this morning was a right old error filled mess of a game.
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Blacks v Boks this morning was a right old error filled mess of a game.
Awful match, this is why I think NZ are lucky to still be top of the rankings, they're not the team they were 18 months ago, SA are the SH team that worries me because of the sheer physicality they bring.
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SA had some poor refereeing decisions go against them as well.
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Retallick has a dislocated shoulder but might be fit for the World Cup
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Teo and Brown dropped for the Wales game at the weekend.
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Teo and Brown dropped for the Wales game at the weekend.
The right decision, neither of them deserves to be in the best 23 we can put out and they're both too old to keep around the squad if they're not going to play.
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Think 10/11 are very decent odds for Wales tomorrow. They are at full strength whereas England have an extremely experimental line up.
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Wales put back in their place, I’d fancy England next week as well.
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Think 10/11 are very decent odds for Wales tomorrow. They are at full strength whereas England have an extremely experimental line up.
That was incredibly shrewd tipping as England go on to win the game by 14 points!!
Interesting game. Plenty of positives for England as a pretty patched up team beat a Wales team at full strength.
Loads of power and pace out wide and a 2nd choice front 5 dominating the Welsh pack. Still leaky defensively though.
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Superb performance in the main, the backrow and back 3 were all superb but special mention to Ludlam looking anything but a young debutant, I'd take him to the world cup on the back of that, it's better than anything Shields has done in an England shirt and he showed he could play 6 or 7 and do a good job at both.
Also Watson, Daly, Coka looks like the right outside backs for me, pace, power and a hell of a lot of skill. Heinz, Ford, Francis and Joseph are clearly all backup options but I think every one of them did a decent job without putting their hands up to start in the world cup.
Up front I thought Genge did brilliantly in the scrum, I'm amazed they only conceded 3 penalties in the scrum all game because their 2nd row was folding almost all game. Cowan-Dickie really needs to improve his throwing at the lineout, he gave away good territory a few times by being wayward.
England's strength is in their depth but Jones really needs to convert that into competition for places to push the first 15 right to their very best.
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15-20 minutes from the world cup squad announcement, right now I expect:
Mako, Marler, Genge
Cole, Sinckler, Williams
George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis
Billy V, Curry, Underhill, Wilson, Ludlam
Youngs, Heinz
Farrell, Ford
Manu, Slade, Joseph, Francis
Daly, Watson, Coka, May, Nowell*
*Nowell is, by all accounts, 50/50 but I think they might risk it to have him available later in the tournament. If McConnochie had played yesterday I'd be less sure of this one. Singleton is the other stab in the dark but he'll take a 3rd hooker and I'm not sure who else there is that stands a chance, Tommy Taylor is a fantastic prospect but he's had a few games after 2 years of near constant injuries so I just can't see it. Ludlam has to have edged out Shields after that game.
Personally I'd swap Francis for Cipriani but I don't think that will happen.
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Definitely no Te'o.
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Forwards: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 37 caps) *
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 27 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 32 caps) *
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 59 caps) *
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 72 caps) **
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 22 caps)
Jack Singleton (Saracens, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps) *
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 53 caps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons / Sale Sharks, 13 caps)
Backs: Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 5 caps)
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 31 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 70 caps) *
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 56 caps) *
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 1 cap)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 41 caps) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps) *
Ruaridh McConnochie (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 33 caps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps) *
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps) *
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 34 caps) *
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 86 caps) **
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So my squad but has taken the risk of dropping Williams to take an extra back (in McConnochie). I hope that doesn't cause us problems.
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Also Anscombe out for Wales and won't make the world cup. What a fucking moron he was playing on when clearly injured and what the fuckis wrong with the welsh management to let him play on in a nothing game so close to the world cup. Feel sorry for him but he's got no one to blame but himself. Compare and contrast with Curry who got a knock and was taken off immediately and will be fine.
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What are the rules re calling up injury replacements during the tournament ?
I'd want three scrum halves
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I'm not sure once we pass the deadline for the squad announcements (8th Sept) but until then we can obviously just make changes.
After that I think changes can be made but the person that leaves can't be recalled, but I might be wrong on that.
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Look on the bright side, at least this time round we're not all sat here thinking Sam fucking Burgess, why?
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I'm really happy with the squad as is.
The big positives for me are:
No Shields
No Spencer
No Brown
No Care
No T'eo
As a group they're either past it, not good enough or play completely the wrong way for what we need to do if we want to stand a chance.
The only real negatives are that I'd prefer Hartley, Robson and Cipriani to Singleton, Heinz and Francis and I'd have liked to have a specialist 8 as a backup but they're all pretty minor gripes. I do think 2 tightheads in the squad is a bit risky and I don't see the need for 6 outside backs, even with Nowell carrying an injury, I did think they might add McConnochie though but I thought it would be instead of Nowell if his fitness was worse than expected.
As you say there's no obvious "what the fuck" selections in there like Burgess (who Bath had realised wasn't ready to play centre and England ignored them). I have moaned about Heinz in the past but to be clear that was never about him as a player, it was about England giving fuckloads of gametime to Care and Wigglesworth, ignoring the age of the latter and the poor international record of the former. We created a problem for ourselves where we only have 4-5 caps of experience outside Youngs and it's spread across 3 players.
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There was no chance of Hartley being fit, his knee is really bad. He even had to turn down my wife’s kind offer to him to join our dads’ five aside footy game on a Tuesday.
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There was no chance of Hartley being fit, his knee is really bad. He even had to turn down my wife’s kind offer to him to join our dads’ five aside footy game on a Tuesday.
Nope, If I'm honest I suspect him to retire in a few months having not played another game, everything I've heard is that it's completely fucked.
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Fairly tight game between England and Wales so far, 0-0 after 20mins and not much going on. Wales game plan, so far, is pretty pathetic for a team that were close to going number 1 in the world, it's just kick and chase targeting Daly.
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Awful bit of refereeing there, let them play on whilst we making a sub with Watson still making his way off the pitch. Fucking shit from the officials.
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England lose 13-6 but I think there were a couple of key ref decisions in their favour that made the difference. Nothing in the game really.
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Israel Folau continues to show that he's a really nasty piece of work, bordering on deluded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-50455162
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Yes what an absolute twat.
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It's hard to comment anything other than ...
what an absolute twat.
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What an absolute twat.
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Can't really say where to begin with that.
What an absolute twat.
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Update on Major League Rugby
Some positives but lots of franchise problems and ownership infighting
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/nov/25/major-league-rugby-maa-nonu-rene-ranger-glendale-colorado-vegas
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I think they're trying to rush ahead too quickly if I'm honest. There's not enough of a supporter base or player base to justify the number of teams they're trying to run at the moment, even England struggles to maintain 12 competitive top flight teams at times and we have significantly more to work with. I don't know a better way to do it though, the 6-8 teams that they could potentially support is right on the bottom edge of being enough for a meaningful league (this is why the Celtic league was created because Ireland, Scotland and Wales all faced the same problems with the move to the professional game).
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Rob Howley update
Former Wales backs coach Rob Howley has been banned from rugby for 18 months, with nine suspended, for betting on matches, including Wales games.
The suspension is backdated to his withdrawal from Wales' World Cup campaign, on 16 September 2019.
The panel who judged Howley found that from 14 November, 2015 to 7 September, 2019 he put "363 bets on rugby union, featuring 1,163 matches in total".
Howley, 49, used his Welsh Rugby Union phone and email account to place bets.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50629124
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The England squad is pretty interesting:
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84077075_10157328187869825_7668039184971464704_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=VJJlp2xFf6IAX-R5AvI&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=bd22152ef3f9454bdd2455047dd33a78&oe=5E95C301)
The good news is some of the youngsters in there; Hill, Earls, Dingwall, Furbank, Umaga and Thorley along with Mitchell and Hodge as apprentices is a fantastic sign that they're trying to plug the gaps that were in the World cup squad by getting some more experience into the younger players.
However the prop options, particularly at 3, look a bit ropey and the lack of a genuine 8 (when Simmonds is playing so well) is a worry. I have a feeling that we're going a bit famine to feast and the plan is to play Curry, Underhill and Ludlam as 3 7s.
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Rob Howley update
Former Wales backs coach Rob Howley has been banned from rugby for 18 months, with nine suspended, for betting on matches, including Wales games.
The suspension is backdated to his withdrawal from Wales' World Cup campaign, on 16 September 2019.
The panel who judged Howley found that from 14 November, 2015 to 7 September, 2019 he put "363 bets on rugby union, featuring 1,163 matches in total".
Howley, 49, used his Welsh Rugby Union phone and email account to place bets.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50629124
Wow. The sheer stupidity of this alone warrants a long ban.
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The England squad is pretty interesting:
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84077075_10157328187869825_7668039184971464704_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=VJJlp2xFf6IAX-R5AvI&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=bd22152ef3f9454bdd2455047dd33a78&oe=5E95C301)
The good news is some of the youngsters in there; Hill, Earls, Dingwall, Furbank, Umaga and Thorley along with Mitchell and Hodge as apprentices is a fantastic sign that they're trying to plug the gaps that were in the World cup squad by getting some more experience into the younger players.
However the prop options, particularly at 3, look a bit ropey and the lack of a genuine 8 (when Simmonds is playing so well) is a worry. I have a feeling that we're going a bit famine to feast and the plan is to play Curry, Underhill and Ludlam as 3 7s.
Is Billy Vunipola injured (again)?
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The England squad is pretty interesting:
(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/84077075_10157328187869825_7668039184971464704_o.jpg?_nc_cat=1&_nc_ohc=VJJlp2xFf6IAX-R5AvI&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=bd22152ef3f9454bdd2455047dd33a78&oe=5E95C301)
The good news is some of the youngsters in there; Hill, Earls, Dingwall, Furbank, Umaga and Thorley along with Mitchell and Hodge as apprentices is a fantastic sign that they're trying to plug the gaps that were in the World cup squad by getting some more experience into the younger players.
However the prop options, particularly at 3, look a bit ropey and the lack of a genuine 8 (when Simmonds is playing so well) is a worry. I have a feeling that we're going a bit famine to feast and the plan is to play Curry, Underhill and Ludlam as 3 7s.
Is Billy Vunipola injured (again)?
Yeah, went off yesterday with yet another broken arm (4th time in about 3-4 years now, which is worrying). I rate him as a top player but his fitness is becoming too big a question mark to ignore now.
I've said many times now that I think Simmonds is the future for England at 8 and I'm very frustrated that Jones has left him out.
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Yes, I’m surprised Simmonds isn’t in the squad.
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Yes, I’m surprised Simmonds isn’t in the squad.
It's based purely on his size, which is a shame because his pace, running power and technical ability is superb, he's just not got the bulk of someone like Billy V and you wouldn't want him to add it. For me picking him gives you, effectively, a 3rd centre and allows you to switch to a much more expansive game. He wouldn't be right to start against everyone, sometimes you need to the extra weight in the scrum, but off the bench after 50 minutes he'd be incredibly dangerous and against sides like scotland, australia and new zealand, who try to get the tempo up, he'd be the perfect choice to counter them and provide the 'spare' man.
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Size wasn't a problem for Neil Back!
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Size wasn't a problem for Neil Back!
It shouldn't really be a problem for anyone but Jones likes his big ball carriers, It's a shame because Simmonds is a better player than any of our other back rows (in terms of pure technical ability).
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Especially with BV & Hughes being injured/excluded.
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Your team to beat the Frenchies. Jones promising 'absolute brutality' from England.
15 George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps) C
11 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
8 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
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I'm very happy with Furbank and Ewels starting, they're players who we will need over the next few years, Furbank because he's a proper fullback and Ewels because I can see Kruis and Launchbury transferring themselves out of contention soon so we need to add more depth in 2nd row. I'd like to see a few more younger players get game time through the tournament, Devoto and Dingwall need caps because our centre options are weak and Hill needs a chance because, like Curry, Ludlam and Underhill, he's a massive talent, it's scary how overloaded we are with quality young back rows.
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Disappointed that Zammo didn't make the Wales squad for the first game.
Italy would have been a good match to give him a run out
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A new record for me in giving up any hope of Scotland being vaguely competent. Usually happens after one game. This year... zero games.
They should have been tarred and feathered when they got back from Japan, shitebags.
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A new record for me in giving up any hope of Scotland being vaguely competent. Usually happens after one game. This year... zero games.
They should have been tarred and feathered when they got back from Japan, shitebags.
Agreed. I do take the piss out of Scotland but this years 6N could be embarrassing.
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However bad villa fans feel today spare a thought for CD who's just had to watch Hogg make one of the worst mistakes I've ever seen at international level.
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That was the most Scotland thing I've ever seen.
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Jocks are doing alright at the moment. Winning lots at the breakdown.
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Will Italy ever win a game again in the 6N?
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They beat us every now and again.
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Italy are a tough one, they generally have 5-6 very good players, it's just that the rest aren't international class and they get overwhelmed.
Ref has gifted the game to Ireland at the end though, the turnover on the line with 2-3 minutes to go was never legal, Irish player lying in the way and Stander was no way supporting his weight.
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They beat us every now and again.
Can’t see that happening for a good while. You should have got something out of today.
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Just read that Italy’s winless run in the 6N is now 23 games. They need removing and replacing with Georgia sharpish.
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Do you think Georgia would do any better?
It's fair to say that the idea Italy would improve by regular 6N competition hasn't worked though. Mind you, Scotland aren't much better and no-one talks about booting them out.
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I think Scotland are just unfortunate that Ireland and Wales seem to have really kicked on, and sustained it, in the last 20 years. And England and France just have sheer comparative size and numbers to make sure they're more-or-less competitive most years.
The Scots aren't getting beaten out of sight every time like Italy, but they just seem to lack a little bit of pace/precision which means they can't beat the others.
I can see why Georgia are an interesting proposition for some, but they don't seem much better than Italy for my money, certainly not in terms of results against the big boys which suggest they're knocking on the door (only beat Uruguay in RWC and were fair battered by Fiji and Wales). Plus it's miles away and without a lucrative TV / sponsorship market to make it interesting financially.
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However bad villa fans feel today spare a thought for CD who's just had to watch Hogg make one of the worst mistakes I've ever seen at international level.
The worst part about it was the way that Hogg still decided to give it the big celebration!!!!!
Maybe he thought that would be enough to fall the TMO?
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Do you think Georgia would do any better?
It's fair to say that the idea Italy would improve by regular 6N competition hasn't worked though. Mind you, Scotland aren't much better and no-one talks about booting them out.
Yes please!
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However bad villa fans feel today spare a thought for CD who's just had to watch Hogg make one of the worst mistakes I've ever seen at international level.
The worst part about it was the way that Hogg still decided to give it the big celebration!!!!!
Maybe he thought that would be enough to fall the TMO?
Yeah, it was a bold choice to celebrate rather than curling up in a ball and rocking in the corner.
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Do you think Georgia would do any better?
It's fair to say that the idea Italy would improve by regular 6N competition hasn't worked though. Mind you, Scotland aren't much better and no-one talks about booting them out.
Can't see them being any worse, Italy simply haven't progressed in the last 5 competitions, maybe introducing a relegation in 2 years time and then every 5 years based on average points/places might improve the standard because right now it's the 5 Nations again.
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It's really hard to work out a good way to handle the 6N. I think expand to 8, 2 groups of 4 and then semi and final with top 2 per group in the cup and bottom 2 into a shield. Could add Georgia and Russia (or Romania) and give the smaller sides something to aim for even if it's just to get into the shield final. The negative is that you'd have years where you don't get some of the big matches but it would, in my opinion, be better for the sport in general.
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Poor poor start. Basic handling errors in their 22, and then a non existent defence.
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Insipid. Dreadful stuff so far.
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Nothing short of a fucking disgrace of a start. Completely unprepared and France look far far more up for it than our players.
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Poor start but the ref and TMO have got it wrong for their 2nd try, first contact was definitely the french 7s right hand.
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Furbank looks out his depth.
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Maybe so, but our players didn't bother playing to the whistle.
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Furbank is struggling.
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Furbank looks nervous, he's more than good enough for this but really needs to get some confidence.
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France have had to do fuck all to be 17 points ahead.
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How many handling errors.
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Fucking rubbish. Can’t retain the ball and can’t tackle.
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This is very frustrating, England looks like they've come in under-prepared.
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Jones has a way of opening his mouth and causing a reaction from the opponent.
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Lucky.
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Catch the fucking ball.
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We've wasted three or four opportunities.
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Simply unacceptable performance. France haven't had to do anything and they are 17-0 up. Underprepared and not up for the fight.
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Not sure why that turnover in the corner wasn't given as playing the 9, poor decision.
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It’s been pathetic and passive.
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Can you make 15 replacements?
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Furbank is having a nightmare.
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Furbnak made as much contact with that as they did for their try but this time he's given a knock-on.
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Gonna have to play unbelievably well to make the score look remotely respectable from here.
With Ireland and Wales at home this year, anything less than a grand slam will rightly be seen as a failure for England.
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This is now the third half in a row where England have been abject. Shocking effort.
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Absolutely diabolical.
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40 minutes of ineptitude from us sadly.
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Furbank is having a poor game and getting pelters, but Farrell has been utterly pathetic and he cannot blame inexperience.
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Farrell has been terrible
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The replay of their 2nd try looks horrendous for Johnny May. Stopping in that situation is unforgivable.
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Yep experienced players have been terrible today.
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Huge reaction needed.?
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John inverdale seems to have s purple rinse 🤔
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Yep experienced players have been terrible today.
Yeah, the only senior player that's really shown up, for me, is Courtney Lawes who has been easily our best player.
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Can't remember one line break so far. Woefully uncreative attacking play
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That was late.
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That was late.
Nah, was clearly committed to the tackle as the kick went.
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So weak.
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I think it was just about okay but didn't look good on the replays admittedly.
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Humiliating thrashing.
Might as well use the rest of the 6 nations to blood some younger players now.
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Embarrassing, an utterly shameful effort. Dreadful attacking and defending.
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Losing our rags a bit here. Very unprofessional.
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Goodness me, England falling apart.
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I think the biggest problem is that the sarries players haven't shown up, probably a mistakes by Jones to keep them all in, Farrell, George and Itoje have all been well below their normal standards.
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Jonny May, hot-damn. Clinical finishing. My word I would laugh my head off if England came back from here...
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Great second half from May, Genge has made a difference and Furbank has improved massively. A big part of the change is that we seem to have bypassed Farrell in the last 20 minutes and we're having much more impact.
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Must not allow the improvement of the 2nd half let the players off the hook for a completely unacceptable 1st half
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The scoreline doesn't look too bad in the end but all the damage was done in a truly abysmal first half.
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Dismal for the most part. Make no mistake it was May brilliance that got the scores, nothing to do with the team. The team were laboured and had no plan at all. Also no intensity at all, weak.
Another year no grand slam. For a team with the resources we have it’s pathetic.
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I agree, it's not one to over-react to though, we had the chances to win this so there needs to be a look at basics and concentration. There were a few bits of poor decision making as well, at one point we were camped on their line at 17-0 we got the penalty and we just carried on with the forwards, a sharp pass into the backs and there were lots of 1-on-1 matchups out wide, JJ, May, Daly and Furbank would've all fancied their chances, probably should've taken the 3 once we were given the penalty as well. Once we got on the board we were the better side by a long way but we left too many easy points on the pitch. in the first 50-55 minutes.
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Youngs should never be near this side after that. Fucking abysmal.
Our play at the breakdown was abysmal.
Absolute pish.
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We are too frequently fucking shite away from home.
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Dismal for the most part. Make no mistake it was May brilliance that got the scores, nothing to do with the team. The team were laboured and had no plan at all. Also no intensity at all, weak.
Another year no grand slam. For a team with the resources we have it’s pathetic.
1 grand slam since 2003. Simply not good enough.
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I agree on Youngs, he was awful and as I said earlier we have 3 sarries players that our whole structure is built around right now, George, Itoje and Farrell, all of them were, by their own standards, shit.
Curry was clearly picked with the expectation of them dominating possession and when they didn't his lack of ability with ball in hand was noticeable. I'd have put Ludlam at 8 when he came on and I'd have made that change far earlier by taking Itoje off and putting Lawes into 2nd row at half time.
We left it about 5-10 minutes too late to take Sinckler off as well, we lost some of the scrum dominance because Sinckler was done and Jones left him there far too long after that became obvious.
All said despite everything there was only a controversial 2nd try as the difference between the teams with France at pretty much their best and England looking like they'd spent too long in warm weather camp and forgot how to play in the rain.
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A few randomised thoughts, mostly criticisms actually.
Sinckler - garbage looked like he was still coming round from the RWC final.
Curry is not a number 8.
Youngs - garbage, Care offers far more.
Daly - garbage.
Furbank - oh dear me, a pitiful performance.
Nobody apart from May comes away from that with anything good to their name.
If Dombrandt isn't at Penny Hill Park by lunchtime Jones should be fired today.
Why wasn't Ben Earle in there alongside Curry & Underhill? A super dynamic player wasted.
A week to sort it, Jones needs to shut the fuck up and let the players do his talking, he's embarrasing.
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Pick a proper Number 8
The fact that Youngs has close to 100 caps shows how poor English scrum halves have been over the past few years (or maybe how poor the coaches have been at picking the right ones)
Jonny May is fecking quick
Furbank - blimey, are England that short of decent full backs ?
Sinckler seems to have taken over the Hartley role of bumbling forward a bit and then lying down
LCD was lucky not to get binned for going in after the try had been scored and provoking the handbags
In other games....... that pass by Dan Biggar to set up Josh Adams' second try....wow
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What happened to Mercer as a No. 8 option. Is he out of the running now ?
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Pick a proper Number 8
The fact that Youngs has close to 100 caps shows how poor English scrum halves have been over the past few years (or maybe how poor the coaches have been at picking the right ones)
Jonny May is fecking quick
Furbank - blimey, are England that short of decent full backs ?
Sinckler seems to have taken over the Hartley role of bumbling forward a bit and then lying down
LCD was lucky not to get binned for going in after the try had been scored and provoking the handbags
In other games....... that pass by Dan Biggar to set up Josh Adams' second try....wow
Sinckler goes into foetal mode as soon as he hits the turf.
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Harsh on Furbank, on debut with 3-4 senior players, including the captain, falling apart is tough. He had a good 2nd half.
Agree on Youngs, Robson should be first choice and have 30 caps now.
No idea what's going on with sinckler, he wilted under the responsibility of being the big carrier and left it all to Lawes (who was easily our best player and needed much more support).
At 8 Mercer has fallen behind Simmonds and Dombrandt, both of whom should be there.
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Harsh on Furbank, on debut with 3-4 senior players, including the captain, falling apart is tough. He had a good 2nd half.
Agree on Youngs, Robson should be first choice and have 30 caps now.
No idea what's going on with sinckler, he wilted under the responsibility of being the big carrier and left it all to Lawes (who was easily our best player and needed much more support).
At 8 Mercer has fallen behind Simmonds and Dombrandt, both of whom should be there.
I think the stick George has got has been completely over the top. Dropped a couple of high balls early on but I thought was reasonably steady, in a shocking back line performance. Watching the first try back and he damn near saved it by managing to tackle Teddy Thomas when others (Underhill) has failed. He’s a wonderful support runner but we never once looked to use that ability. There are others I’d look at before canning Furbank
I see it’s an unchanged squad, which means no proper number 8 and words fail me, the same ruddy scrum halves. Ben Youngs is going to get to 100 caps which is at least 50 more than it should be,
Eddie’s done a fantastic job over 4 years but if you look at his career, he only ever is a 4 year max appointment. I’d personally move him on and pay whatever it takes to get Scott Robertson or Chris Boyd as the new man
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Furbank was terrible, but I’m not writing him off as he was playing in that shit show.
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Furbank was terrible, but I’m not writing him off as he was playing in that shit show.
Felt for Furbank.
He catches that pass and he’s in for a try and a hero.
Unfortunately he didn’t
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Watson still out for the next game. I assume Furbank will keep his place rather than Daly moving to Full Back and Thorley coming in on the wing
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Watson still out for the next game. I assume Furbank will keep his place rather than Daly moving to Full Back and Thorley coming in on the wing
To be fair I think that's only right. He's the stand out full back in the league this season, everything he's done to earn his call-up can't be forgotten because he had a poor day as part of a team that had a poor day.
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The Eddie Jones hasn't learned anything about Tom Curry not being an 8 but has recognised the fact that Ben Youngs is shite starting XV .
15 George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 53 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 48 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 80 caps) C
11 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 40 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 66 caps)
9 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 10 caps)
1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 46 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 35 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 42 caps)
6 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
8 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 20 caps)
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It beggars belief. Curry is far too good a player to waste out of position. Especially when we have capable no 8's avaliable.
Looks like another day of us struggling to break the gainline.
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70 mph winds forecast for match day, hardly going to be a classic is it?
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70 mph winds forecast for match day, hardly going to be a classic is it?
*Punches the air.
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Taking Ewels out and putting Ludlam in the backrow is a positive for the ball carrying aspect but leaving Lawes on the bench after he was comfortably the best player in our pack last week is bizarre.
I have concerns about that midfield as well, I'm not sure JJ is up to international rugby any more (he's lost too much pace) and despite it working well at times I've never really liked the ford/farrell combo. farrell is the best 10 in English rugby but he's not the best 12 (I say this but I freely admit that I don't think the alternatives are all that great, it's our weakest position right now). Slade and Manu are the best 2 centres in the country right now so that should be the default (and I'd have them that way round). Then I'd have Farrell and Daly/Nowell as cover (respectively) for them whilst the likes of Redpath, Smith, Umaga and Dingwall get some more experience.
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I know its windy but fucking hell! Have England had some sort of bet on how many times they can kick the ball out on the full?
Utterly atrociou game of Rugby
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Fuck me that was some miss.
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Two weeks in a row Hogg has thrown the game. Somebody check his Bet365 account.
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Fair play to Youngs he was shocking last week, but very good when he came on today.
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Yep, Youngs had the sense to keep the ball in play with his kicks and not flirt with the sidelines like Heinz did.
In the abysmal conditions, some of Englands kicking choices were braindead.
Awful game but was always going to be.
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Fair play to Youngs he was shocking last week, but very good when he came on today.
That’s Youngs & also Care’s international careers, average starters good replacements.
Ford?
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Happy with the win but:
England really need to fuck Heinz and Youngs off and get some 9s that; a. will be available for the next world cup and b. aren't shit.
Jones needs to admit he's wrong about the back row and pick a proper 8.
I watched with 2 clubs worth of rugby players in, effecitvely, a portakabin full of beer so I might not be proud of this message tomorrow.
Final point, I thought Furbank was much better in fucking horrible conditions.
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Empty seats my lord, empty seats.
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Somehow I've managed to blag a seat in the former England Internationals seating area for the Ireland game at Twickenham, best try & look manly & sound like I know what I'm on about. Will let you know if anyone decent has the honour of sitting next to me.
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Somehow I've managed to blag a seat in the former England Internationals seating area for the Ireland game at Twickenham, best try & look manly & sound like I know what I'm on about. Will let you know if anyone decent has the honour of sitting next to me.
You need to look like a thug but talk like Little Lord Fauntleroy.
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Somehow I've managed to blag a seat in the former England Internationals seating area for the Ireland game at Twickenham, best try & look manly & sound like I know what I'm on about. Will let you know if anyone decent has the honour of sitting next to me.
Do ex-internationals get such seats for life ?
If so, 50 years after his last international and my cousin still hasn't invited me :(
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Somehow I've managed to blag a seat in the former England Internationals seating area for the Ireland game at Twickenham, best try & look manly & sound like I know what I'm on about. Will let you know if anyone decent has the honour of sitting next to me.
Do ex-internationals get such seats for life ?
If so, 50 years after his last international and my cousin still hasn't invited me :(
I’ve no idea how it works, they have their own bar under the West Stand as well.
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England starting XV
15 Elliot Daly (Saracens, 41 caps)
14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
13 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 41 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 81 caps) C
11 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 49 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 67 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 97 caps)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 69 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 47 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 33 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 36 caps)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 43 caps)
6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 83 caps)
7 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
8 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 21 caps)
Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 22 caps)
17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 16 caps)
18 Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
19 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 63 caps)
20 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
21 Ben Earl (Saracens, 1 cap)
22 Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 11 caps)
23 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
I like Jones in a lot of ways, and he's earned the right to pick the team he wants but, to me, that backline is fucking disgrace.
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An outside half at centre, a centre on the wing, a wing at full back, a lock at flanker and a flanker at No. 8 ::)
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An outside half at centre, a centre on the wing, a wing at full back, a lock at flanker and a flanker at No. 8 ::)
and no outside back on the bench to accommodate a 2nd lock on the bench. He's out of contract at the end of the year and that team looks like he's decided he wants to leave.
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An outside half at centre, a centre on the wing, a wing at full back, a lock at flanker and a flanker at No. 8 ::)
and no outside back on the bench to accommodate a 2nd lock on the bench. He's out of contract at the end of the year and that team looks like he's decided he wants to leave.
I think Jones has until 2022.
Youngs back in the starting 15, Curry is not an 8.
Nice to see Manu back.
Should have enough about them to see off Ireland you'd think.
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Just checked and he's contracted until the end of next season, I thought it was January. Either way both Jones and the RFU have been pretty cagey about the plans after that.
That said I was mostly being sarcastic, this team is all about his ego, he's decided that players are better in other positions and he'll keep picking them their regardless of whether it's working. It's the same as him deciding that Robson and Cipriani weren't for him and ignoring them other than a few token appearances to shut people up.
As for the game I honestly don't know, Daly isn't great under the high ball and they have 2 superb kickers at 9 and 10 and then they have bags of pace out wide and we have a centre on the wing. I also think Stander is a top drawer 8 so I don't understand us deciding to not bother having one ourselves.
This, to me, looks a lot like the world cup final where he hasn't picked a team to suit the opposition at all. I just can't work out what he wants the team to be or how he intends us to play.
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Urgh Joseph on the wing.
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How are Wales not winning this?
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Wales v France was a great game to watch.
Ntamack is probably the best Outside Half at the moment.
Italy v Scotland was two poor teams playing very poorly
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I'm not sure about that claim about Ntamack. He's a very good 10 but he's got a monster pack and world class 9 in front of him.
Yesterday he was given the easiest of armchair rides I've seen in years for about an hour. At one point the commentators were taking the piss that he'd bossed the game and hadn't broken a sweat.
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Right, come on England, on balance we should be looking at a big win here but some dicking around with selection by Jones means it'll be much closer than it should be, I just hope we have enough to get the win still. JJ on the wing worries me massively, nothing looks right about that selection to me.
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Got to give them credit. Completely dominating the physical battle in that 1st half the odd occasion that Ireland have had the ball they've been smashed back by a white wall time after time.
You look at that, then think back to the 1st half against France and think WTF.
Ireland very lucky to only be 17 behind.
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Agree with that, we've bossed it in the forwards and Lawes, Itoje and Underhill have completely dominated Murray and Sexton, to the point where I can't think of seeing Sexton have a worse performance than this.
That said the reason it's only 17 is largely because of how disjointed we look in the backs. Lets be honest we can thank 2 kind bounces for this scoreline.
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Lets be honest we can thank 2 kind bounces for this scoreline.
That's a fair point. But we have nevertheless been the best side by miles so far.
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Completely agree, we've been dominant, but we haven't created much for all the territory and possession we've had. May is probably the most dangerous winger in the world and I can't think of him being given the ball with any space to hit, right now we seem to have decided to play around aggressive defence and lots of 50/50 kicking. With 3 1/2 years to build to the next world cup I'd like to see a bit more than that whilst we have time on our side.
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So so frustrating to give away a needless try at the end. Scoreline doesn't reflect the dominance England had.
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Nope, but I think there are still problems, we really should've been looking at 40+ points there, Ireland were shockingly poor. I still don't think the backline fired, that was a game decided in the pack. I agree with th choice of Lawes as man of the match, he was immense.
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Ireland were poor, but it would have been very difficult for any team to live with England's physicality, especially in the 1st half.
Think there was a lack of patience a from us around their line. Went wide too early and a few passes were a bit off.
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Enjoyed that, not sure how Ireland kept 15 men on the pitch to be honest. Referee not willing to go to TMO for a couple of big incidents that should have ended with a red card. Ireland’s 5 will definitely get cited for a punch on Itoje in the first half.
Good seats in amongst a few ex England internationals.
(https://i.ibb.co/6Rqx7dX/6-EB0248-C-00-B0-49-B3-B693-62-E0-CB471-FD3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Rqx7dX)
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Seems daft that there was no action taken over the Irish player punching Farrell in the stomach twice either. Granted Farrell was rightfully penalised for grabbing hold of his leg, but surely it can't be acceptable to react like that?
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I've said the same, I get that Farrell was being an arse and got pinged for it but there was a clear case of unnecessary aggression in the response, closed fist and that's a red so to give nothing because he was hitting with the heel of his hand seems stupid.
Should've been a penalty and a yellow for Henshaw taking May out as well, no chance was he committed to that before the kick, you could see the moment realised and stopped trying to tackle and just went with his shoulder instead.
I missed the one on Itoje at the time but looking back I agree with Jon, it was pretty cynical.
Final point on the officials, when he came on there was a clear case of them trying to wind Genge up, 3-4 different players needled him in the first 10 minutes and the ref really should've had a word because it was going a bit too far really.
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What are your opinions on the Stander/Farrell incident?
Mine is Stander red card. Or have I got my rose tinted glasses on again 👍
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What are your opinions on the Stander/Farrell incident?
Mine is Stander red card. Or have I got my rose tinted glasses on again 👍
A ridiculous incident, again Stander should be cited and banned, Farrell should be embarrassed by his antics. A stupid penalty to give away we were more than capable of clearing our lines.
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I was there today, good solid display by England. Sexton had a nightmare, which was nice. Crap reffing, the Henshaw one was blatant. Big Courtney deservedly MOTM.
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What are your opinions on the Stander/Farrell incident?
Mine is Stander red card. Or have I got my rose tinted glasses on again 👍
It's somewhere between a yellow and a red depending on the specific circumstances and, given Farrell was being a dick, a yellow would've been fair (along with the penalty being reversed).
It was a good result and there was aspects of it that were very impressive but I'm a little concerned that Jones is responding to SA and France out battling us by upping the physicality even further to try to beat them at their own game and I don't think it's the right approach.
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My view is that there were mitigating circumstances that prevented a red, namely the fact it was not a closed fist. Farrell after all could have let go after the first “push” but chose not to. Kinda surprised it wasn’t a yellow but I think Farrell being a twat gave the referee justification.
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Rugby's move away from specialists
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2020/feb/25/eddie-jones-england-hybrids-rugby-union-six-nations
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Ireland v Italy called off
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Ireland v Italy called off
A ridiculous decision.
Do the Irish authorities think that Italians now won't come to Dublin for a piss up anyway?
I do hope the Italian authorities don't call off the England game, I'll be going to Rome for the weekend whatever they decide.
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I'll be amazed if Italy v England isn't called off. Think the Ireland game could have gone ahead with no away fans.
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I'd be surprised if Biggar plays next week, carreid off after about 15minutes earlier and looked a nasty knee injury.
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I'll be amazed if Italy v England isn't called off. Think the Ireland game could have gone ahead with no away fans.
I do tend to agree re the Italy v England game although on the positive side England isn't a hotbed of cases just yet whereas Italy is which maybe is what drove the Irish decision.
With regard to no away fans, how would you police that? Rugby tickets tend not to be segregated for internationals, there's now way of telling if you're an away fan for certain.
Cue olive skinned, Armani wearing azuri fan rocking up at Landsdowne claiming to be Patrick O'Rourke of Dingle.
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Does this mean we might get an extra week of six nations games (ah Italy playing twice might be a struggle).
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More likely the games will be postponed until October and the start of the autumn internationals just as they did during the foot and mouth crisis.
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Potential row brewing between England and Saracens over Mako.
Saracens say he may be selected for their game at the weekend as he is not in isolation.
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What Sarries really need to be doing, after massive fines and the biggest points deduction I've ever seen, is getting into completely unnecessary aggro with the RFU over international players, I don't see any way it'll end badly for them...
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All sports matches in Italy up until 3rd April, including the Six Nations game against England, to be played behind closed doors.
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Oh well, there goes my weekend in Rome.
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Will you get your money back? Don't tell me you had booked to go by Flybe, too?
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Ticket money yes I would hope, €100 a ticket times 4.
We booked flights and hotels with BA as a package, if we cancel we’d lose everything as Italy and Rome is not on the banned list with FCO at present and that’s the trigger for insurance companies. I’ll be calling them today to se if we can change dates. BA are usually absolute sticklers for fare rules though.
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Maybe the Foreign Office will move Rome to the banned list to make it easier for England fans to get their money back?
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It's a minefield. Our travel insurance company states that a natural disaster includes an epidemic in or in close proximity to the destination.
Italian authorities nor the WHO have declared it an epidemic yet but if their government are sacking off events surely some common sense will prevail.
BA ever the money grabbing shithouses that they are have offered new booking complete and total flexibility, no charge to change or cancel, longstanding bookings? Jog on.
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What Sarries really need to be doing, after massive fines and the biggest points deduction I've ever seen, is getting into completely unnecessary aggro with the RFU over international players, I don't see any way it'll end badly for them...
Exactly right. The way they've been conducting themselves has been terrible.
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I don't know much about rugby but Saracens seem like twats.
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I don't know much about rugby but Saracens seem like twats.
Think of all the worst things about Man Utd over the last 30 years with a dash of Abramovich on top and you're about there.
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I generally agree, but you also hear good stuff, they pushed boundaries in player welfare, examples:
1. Each youngster is obligated to complete a degree so they learn how to think/learn (possibly also a salary dodge)
2. Free child care (ditto).
3. Their motto is something like ‘creating memories’ which, via the podcasts I listen to, the players from other clubs are universally in awe of - it amounts to free trips to X, Y, Z where they get pissed. The general premise being they they partied and played harder than anyone else.
4. Jim Hamilton said the work ethic of the younger players - the product of the system - made him retire because they were too focused/good/intelligent.
Ultimately they got it wrong. They cheated. But they did a lot right and so it would be foolish to chuck the whole saracens experiment out the window as corrupt.
Add Nigel Wray - assuming he developed this culture - into a football environment where there is no ceiling (bar FFP) and villa could grow immensely in my opinion.
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Playing nicely overall. I don’t like the split on the bench. Leaves you massively exposed in the backs as soon as there’s any injury.
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Great game today, shame the officials spoilt it as a spectacle.
Another week where 40 points should have been surpassed, another week of stupid penalties.
Alun Wyn Jones is a non stop whinger.
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The red card was harsh, not sure what Tuilagi could have done as he had already started his tackle motion when the Welsh player was tackled and his body position lowered.
We played some decent stuff at times, had a bit of a brain fade at both the end of the 1st and start of the 2nd half. Wales scoring the 2 tries against 13 men makes the game appear a lot closer than it actually was.
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The red card was harsh, not sure what Tuilagi could have done as he had already started his tackle motion when the Welsh player was tackled and his body position lowered.
I saw this differently. I thought that it was lucky that the Welsh player was falling out of the way when Tuilagi contacted him.
Yes, Tuilagi was already committed to the tackle but it was one with no attempt to wrap his arms and could have been a lot worse
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I'm not Scottish, but by God, hearing a full Murrayfield sing the second verse of "Flower of Scotland" unaccompanied never fails to send a shiver up my spine. Beautiful stuff.
Anyway, come on France, time for you to win a 6N again.
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The red card was harsh, not sure what Tuilagi could have done as he had already started his tackle motion when the Welsh player was tackled and his body position lowered.
I saw this differently. I thought that it was lucky that the Welsh player was falling out of the way when Tuilagi contacted him.
Yes, Tuilagi was already committed to the tackle but it was one with no attempt to wrap his arms and could have been a lot worse
completely disagree, if North gets his foot loose the tackle is no different to ones you see all through top level rugby every weekend where the impact comes from the shoulder with the other arm wrapping and then the 'lead' arm coming round after the impact. I honestly thought the Parkes tackle on Manu was worse.
On topic, think the ref in the scotland game did really well just, yellow card was spot on.
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France appear to be sticking to tradition and playing like they're drunk just when they look like they've become the team they've promised to be. Scotland have completely bossed them without actually doing anything all that great themselves.
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The red card was harsh, not sure what Tuilagi could have done as he had already started his tackle motion when the Welsh player was tackled and his body position lowered.
I saw this differently. I thought that it was lucky that the Welsh player was falling out of the way when Tuilagi contacted him.
Yes, Tuilagi was already committed to the tackle but it was one with no attempt to wrap his arms and could have been a lot worse
completely disagree, if North gets his foot loose the tackle is no different to ones you see all through top level rugby every weekend where the impact comes from the shoulder with the other arm wrapping and then the 'lead' arm coming round after the impact. I honestly thought the Parkes tackle on Manu was worse.
On topic, think the ref in the scotland game did really well just, yellow card was spot on.
Surely in pretty much every tackle the shoulder will make contact first, then the arms wrap around. Any player using just arms is tackling very very wrong!!
I think because Norths body position had lowered, Tuilagi didn't have anything to wrap his arms around. I think a yellow would have been fair as there was mitigating circumstances (yellow would have still effectively been red with the time remaining)
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The red card was harsh, not sure what Tuilagi could have done as he had already started his tackle motion when the Welsh player was tackled and his body position lowered.
I saw this differently. I thought that it was lucky that the Welsh player was falling out of the way when Tuilagi contacted him.
Yes, Tuilagi was already committed to the tackle but it was one with no attempt to wrap his arms and could have been a lot worse
completely disagree, if North gets his foot loose the tackle is no different to ones you see all through top level rugby every weekend where the impact comes from the shoulder with the other arm wrapping and then the 'lead' arm coming round after the impact. I honestly thought the Parkes tackle on Manu was worse.
On topic, think the ref in the scotland game did really well just, yellow card was spot on.
Surely in pretty much every tackle the shoulder will make contact first, then the arms wrap around. Any player using just arms is tackling very very wrong!!
I think because Norths body position had lowered, Tuilagi didn't have anything to wrap his arms around. I think a yellow would have been fair as there was mitigating circumstances (yellow would have still effectively been red with the time remaining)
Absolutely. Away from the top level you'll get plenty of people who go into that hit with their arms on U in front of them, which would make the tackle but might not push someone the size and power of North into touch but should first then swing the arm in is fairly normal, it's exactly how I was taught to hit tackle bags (but I was never as good at hitting a moving target cleanly, so I lead with the arms more in games).
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France v Ireland postponed.
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France get to lick their wounds for a bit longer.
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"Latest update:
Summary and Health - The FCO now advises against all but essential travel to Italy, due to an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus (COVID-19) and in line with various controls and restrictions imposed by the Italian authorities on 9 March."
Surely you get your money back now, mate?
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"Latest update:
Summary and Health - The FCO now advises against all but essential travel to Italy, due to an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus (COVID-19) and in line with various controls and restrictions imposed by the Italian authorities on 9 March."
Surely you get your money back now, mate?
We should. BA have cancelled everything in and out of Italy for today, I've no doubt that will extend to Friday and beyond when we were supposed to fly.
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Wales vs Scotland postponed (eventually).
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"Latest update:
Summary and Health - The FCO now advises against all but essential travel to Italy, due to an ongoing outbreak of coronavirus (COVID-19) and in line with various controls and restrictions imposed by the Italian authorities on 9 March."
Surely you get your money back now, mate?
We should. BA have cancelled everything in and out of Italy for today, I've no doubt that will extend to Friday and beyond when we were supposed to fly.
BA cancelled a few days ago, everything refunded. Match tickets no idea yet what's happening on that front.
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This could be shit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51909783
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Stuck with Jones until 2023.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52129858
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"....and welcome to England's first game of the 2023 World Cup. Ben Youngs has been carrying a knock but has been declared fit to start the game. Willi Heinz waits his chance"
::)
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"....and welcome to England's first game of the 2023 World Cup. Ben Youngs has been carrying a knock but has been declared fit to start the game. Willi Heinz waits his chance"
::)
fingers crossed the long break has made him reconsider and we get Alex Mitchell in the 23 from now on, his pace and vision is miles ahead of any other English 9 around right now (except for Robson who clearly shit on Jones' carpet or something).
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Clean forgot about the return of international rugby in the Southern Hemisphere, with NZ v Aus in ‘The bloke who knew my grandfather Cup’
I have the letter that Viscount Bledisloe wrote to my Nan after my grandfather died.
Anyhow, a tight game in crappy conditions. Ended 16-16
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Crap tactics from both teams at the end. England or SA would have set up a relatively straightforward drop goal attempt in those positions.
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Surprised that Robshaw was one the hotel escapees
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54656359
I await the call to make my Barbarians debut :)
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Game now off.
Investigations showed that even more players had gone awol.
Very poor attitude from the Barbarians players
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Italy are still shite despite 6 months off to practice.
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I like the Italy shirt, reverting to the darker blue of back in the day. The Ireland shirt's a bit of a mess but at least we're winning comfortably enough.
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It's all too easy for Ireland, if they don't run in 50 here they'll be disappointed.
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Italy are still shite despite 6 months off to practice.
Well, they've had the best part of 20 years to practice and, if anything, they're further behind now than they were.
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I had no idea they were playing the last round of six nations games this Saturday until tonight. Think England have got a decent chance of winning the tournament
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I had no idea they were playing the last round of six nations games this Saturday until tonight. Think England have got a decent chance of winning the tournament
You’d think so, France & Ireland will both know exactly what they need to do so they should just cancel each other out, that said France being France may not bother turning up.
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I had no idea they were playing the last round of six nations games this Saturday until tonight. Think England have got a decent chance of winning the tournament
You’d think so, France & Ireland will both know exactly what they need to do so they should just cancel each other out, that said France being France may not bother turning up.
France are a tough one, they seemed to be largely over the fitness and discipline issues until the ridiculous red card against Scotland. I don't think that will be the norm for them though because the clubs sides have become a lot more disciplined in the last few years and I expect that to carry over. Ireland are a good side but a big win over Italy doesn't really mean much either way, in the spring they were a team doing ok but struggling to convert pressure to points and I can't see that having changed much, the big win over Italy is very flattering to them in the table.
England are probably slight favourites though, if we get the 5 point and 30-35 point winning margin result that you'd expect then it'll be tough for France to catch us at all and will put a lot of pressure on Ireland to get the 4 tries
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England starting XV to smash the Italians, 1 new cap in Hill from The Chiefs.
15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)
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No reserve Outside Half in the 23. Probably won't be a problem against Italy, but I wouldn't like to see them take that risk against a decent team
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No reserve Outside Half in the 23. Probably won't be a problem against Italy, but I wouldn't like to see them take that risk against a decent team
Slade is the cover for 10, which is fine, he's more than capable of covering there. I like the team, swap in Robson at 9 and it's pretty much how I'd have gone for this game.
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100th cap for Ben Youngs. He's OK, maybe even Good....but he's not 100 caps good
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100th cap for Ben Youngs. He's OK, maybe even Good....but he's not 100 caps good
he's probably been the best 9 in the country for about 20-30 of those caps, certainly the last 40-50 have come because of experience rather than form or ability. He's the one glaring blindspot of Jones that really puts me off, I know Jones has done more good than bad, I know he's made us a better squad in a lot of ways but his attitude with a handful of players has also stopped him from making us indisputable world number 1. He's a very frustrating guy.
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The calls to blood more of the recent great Aussie U20 side should calm down after today.
Completely out-thought and out-played by NZ in the Kiwis’ biggest with over Aus.
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England haven't been great, the backs look like they've barely played together but the back 5 of the scrum are so far ahead of the italians that it doesn't matter to the result. However a bonus point and a 30+ point margin is the aim and I'm not sure about the latter.
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A pitiful England performance really, Surely that’s the last we’ll see of Youngs.
The game plan was kick & chase which is pitiful at this level.
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First try for Ireland.
France look like they’re up for it though.
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French penalty count under control now they should run out comfortable winners.
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England lacked cohesion but against Italy being off your game won’t hurt you. Ireland on the other hand just weren’t on their game.
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All feels a bit hollow. France were the best team I think.
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All feels a bit hollow. France were the best team I think.
They’re building a very good side.
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History will tell you England were the better team.
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We weren’t though - in performance terms. It may not come to anything but France look very good at this point in their development cycle.
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Who won the six nations?
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It’s a dangerous road to go down to allude England didn’t deserve to win it, where do we draw the line on who deserved what from lockdown in any sport.
Do we scrutinise any 2021 winner as the end of 2020 wasn’t really
Accurate performance?
History tells me England won the six nation 2020.
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All feels a bit hollow. France were the best team I think.
I disagree, France were good but had a meltdown against scotland which cost them, in much the same way that we had a terrible half hour against France which cost us.
However I agree with VFL that they're putting together a very good team, Ollivon and Dupont are exceptional players.
On England, as I said during the game, when you can put out a 2nd row and back row with that much talent any team outside the top 5-6 in the world is going to struggle even if you're not fully firing. There's nothing flashy about it but Itoje, Curry and Underhill were all superb and for me all three were far above Youngs in the man of the match stakes, I was offended by him being chosen. I know he got 2 tries but him and Farrell just didn't work until Italy started getting tired and leaving gaps.
Special mention for Furbank who had a very solid game as well, I think he's growing into the role now and I'd stick with him there, the defensive cover when they nearly got in the corner was excellent to get over and get his body in the way to stop the italian getting a hand on the ball.
I hope Marchant gets some game time in the next few weeks because Joseph looks a spent force to me, he was terrible today, I'd have replaced him a lot earlier than Jones did.
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Exponential post
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I was really impressed by France, there are loads of positives for them:
The 9 and 10 look excellent (Romain looks nothing like Emile Ntamack).
Their strength in depth. They swapped out their front row after about 55-minutes and each new player was massive. It’s the sort of thing England have been doing in recent years and it must be demoralising for countries like Ireland that just don’t have the same pool of players.
Their collective discipline and togetherness. Sean Edwards Seems to be getting the credit here.
Rugby is better when there is a strong France.
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I don’t think it’s a particularly dangerous road - it’s just my opinion that I think France were the best team this Six Nations. It doesn’t change the fact England won the comp, but I think overall France played the better rugby.
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I don’t think it’s a particularly dangerous road - it’s just my opinion that I think France were the best team this Six Nations. It doesn’t change the fact England won the comp, but I think overall France played the better rugby.
I agree with you, mate. They were definitely the most exciting team to watch,also.
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Newcastle United were also exciting In 1996.
Winning titles is about being the best.
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If that French team keeps on developing as it has these past 12 months they’ll be a force to be reckoned with. Without doubt they played the better rugby across the drawn out tournament, quite how the managed to lose to Scotland is beyond me, sort out their ill discipline like they did second half and they’ll be a match for anyone.
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Newcastle United were also exciting In 1996.
Winning titles is about being the best.
Thank you for pointing that out to me. But this is a rugby thread.
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The autumn internationals are on Amazon Prime (with a few games on C4/S4C)
https://www.wheresthematch.com/autumn-nations-cup-on-tv/
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Blimey Argentina beat the All Blacks.
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Blimey Argentina beat the All Blacks.
I’ve just finished watching the game. An immense performance from Argentina.
However, I can’t remember seeing such a scrappy and I’ll disciplined performance from NZ.
If not for some very lenient refereeing, NZ could have had multiple players binned in the first half.
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France v Fiji tomorrow is cancelled. Fiji got da ‘rona
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England won as comfortably as anyone would expect. Not sure why he felt the need to play Youngs and Farrell in it though, what realy benefit is there to give 2 of the most experienced players in the squad a game when there's no depth of experience in either position? What was the point on a centre playing on the wing when we already struggle picking 2 from 5-6 in those spots. Jones has done good things for England but some of his selection decisions have been shocking.
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Totally agree about selection.
I’m finally starting to appreciate Youngs a bit, but still don’t like Farrell at Outside Half
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England won as comfortably as anyone would expect. Not sure why he felt the need to play Youngs and Farrell in it though, what realy benefit is there to give 2 of the most experienced players in the squad a game when there's no depth of experience in either position? What was the point on a centre playing on the wing when we already struggle picking 2 from 5-6 in those spots. Jones has done good things for England but some of his selection decisions have been shocking.
Without checking, aside from Jamie George, Itoje and Billy that was a relatively inexperienced pack, so and experienced head at 9 was probably essential.
I quite like Youngs, nothing too flash, but still a very good international player.
I’d have liked to have had Joe Simmonds or Umaga at 10 with Farrel at 12
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My problem with Youngs is the same now as it was when he broke through, he takes 2-3 steps before he passes (because he's deciding if he can make a break) which means th 10 and 12 have no space when they get the ball. For me it's a fundamental weakness in a 9 because it forces you to play in a certain way so you become predictable. Just watch for how many times the ball gets thrown out with tacklers already level with him, it forces Farrell into the pocket (not that it takes much) and encourages us to kick the ball away. Ireland and Wales in particular have both pegged us for it at times and really rushed us.
In the pack you had George, Launchbury, Itoje and Billy as experience and in the backs the only inexperienced player was Lawrence, you could easily accommodate a 9 and 10 combo that's there for the experience. Aside from that Robson isn't really a rookie, given he's been the best 9 in the country for the last 4-5 years he should be on at least 30-40 caps, yesterday was just the latest example of why he's still nowhere near that. Jones doesn't trust him and has spent 5 years refusing to give him a chance to earn that trust.
Even ignoring my issues with Youngs and my concerns with Farrells temprament, we have no experienced cover for them (particularly if Ford is now out of the question). An injury to 1 of them would leave us in a situation where we had no choice but to play inexperienced players, with the depth England have available that's a ridiculous situation to be in with our 3 key positions.
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Simmons strikes me as similar to Farrell in the way he is captain and presumably a good motivator. If he is a better player then you could soon see Farrell replaced, or more likely shifted to centre where we do not look as blessed.
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Simmons strikes me as similar to Farrell in the way he is captain and presumably a good motivator. If he is a better player then you could soon see Farrell replaced, or more likely shifted to centre where we do not look as blessed.
I'm not sure about Simmons, he reminds me a lot of Myler in that he does all the basic things well and, with a massive dominant pack in front of him, that's enough to look a great player at times but I don't think he has the bit of brilliance you need to win a game on his own. Smith and Umaga should both be getting game time to see if they can step up right now but I suspect Umaga will be a centre in the long run. On top of that I hope Mallinder can stay fit and get a run in the centres, I think he could be a top class 12 but he's been a utility option too often so far and really needs to be given a settled run.
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The travesty of Ben Youngs is that I get the sense Jones will continue with him come what may so that he can beat Jason 'The Fun Bus' Leonard's cap record.
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England just brought all 8 subs on at the same time.
I’ve not seen that before.
Good to see the Forest’s own Mo Hunt back playing.
France scored a cracking try just before HT and are still 10-18 up.
However, I think that France should have had a player sent off for kicking an opponent. Not sure why being slightly held is mitigation for downgrading to a yellow card. She was very lucky
Update - another try for France. Don’t see much hope for England now
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Now 22-23, great fight back by England.
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England win it with a penalty in added time.
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May’s second try was sensational.
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May’s second try was sensational.
Yep, exceptional try.
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Apologise if this has been discussed before, but in today's Mail Clive Woodward is saying rugby's obsession with the box kick is ruining the game as a spectacle and reducing it to a crawl. For the first time that he can remember teams with prime possession no longer want the ball and teams with sensational runners and counter attackers have virtually given up doing what they do best.
Watch very little rugby so I can't comment, but would be interested in others' views.
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Apologise if this has been discussed before, but in today's Mail Clive Woodward is saying rugby's obsession with the box kick is ruining the game as a spectacle and reducing it to a crawl. For the first time that he can remember teams with prime possession no longer want the ball and teams with sensational runners and counter attackers have virtually given up doing what they do best.
Watch very little rugby so I can't comment, but would be interested in others' views.
He's spot on. The other day England lined up with 4 kickers at half backs and centres and just booted the ball away constantly, there were 2-3 times where we had overlaps around halfway and Youngs and Ford didn't even look, it's very frustrating because we have a lot of quality out wide and right now they're just kick chasers for most of the game. It's been since France mugged us in the 6N to follow on from SA doing the same in the WC final (by mugged us I mean made mugs of us by not letting us get our backs involved). It's almost like Jones has decided that he's going to avoid being overpowered by a rush defence by just kicking away possession and hoping for mistakes and penalties. We're little more than Stoke playing for throw-ins right now.
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But when we're just about the best in the world up front, isn't that playing to your strengths?
The forwards marmalised Ireland comprehensively the other week.
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But when we're just about the best in the world up front, isn't that playing to your strengths?
The forwards marmalised Ireland comprehensively the other week.
The best answer I can offer there is 'sort of'. We have a exceptional pack, and more importantly whichever 8 start we have 5 on the bench who are nearly as good and another 10-12 who aren't making the 23 but are world class players. Of course we need to make use of that by bullying teams. The issue is that by packing the team with power runners and kickers we telegraph exactly what we're going to do. Knowing how we're going to play and stopping us aren't the same thing so we'll win plenty of games by doing it but if a team gets their defence right we haven't got much plan b beyond 'give it to May'. I'd just like us to look a little less like we're playing NFL style planned moves for the first 3-4 phases of every attack because right now we're taking some very good, instinctive players and turning them into robots.
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England have been really poor.
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Fucking awful, Youngs, Ford and Farrell have all been utter shite, kicked everything away.
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That's about as close as I've ever got to actually wanting an England team to lose.
The tactics were a disgrace. Kicking the ball away every chance they got against a 3rd strength France team. With Jones it appears we have 3 more years of this shit, only to fail again at a World Cup.
Fair play to the French youngsters. They really didn't deserve to lose that game
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Like all good teams we found a way to win.
If Farrell had bought his kicking boots we wouldn’t have been under so much pressure.
France are certainly going to be a team to watch for the next few years
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Like all good teams we found a way to win.
If Farrell had bought his kicking boots we wouldn’t have been under so much pressure.
France are certainly going to be a team to watch for the next few years
The thing is our U20 from the year before were easily as good as the U20 team that french team was built around but most of ours have barely been given a look in. Finishing with Ford, Farrell, Slade, Daly and Malins all on the pitch showed everything you could ever want to know about how Jones has decided we're going to play. our game for as long as he's with us from now on is going to be 100% about playing the percentages and dominating territory. It'll work to an extent but we're going to be boring as fuck to watch other than the odd flash of brilliance from the only actual winger he seems willing to put any trust in.
He's done great things for the national team and was a big upgrade on the useless old boy appointments that came before him but I'd be looking to move him on soon because his stubbornness is hurting us now and the more people call for a proper 12, proper wingers and less kicking the more likely he will be to just stick with it.
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Like all good teams we found a way to win.
If Farrell had bought his kicking boots we wouldn’t have been under so much pressure.
France are certainly going to be a team to watch for the next few years
The thing is our U20 from the year before were easily as good as the U20 team that french team was built around but most of ours have barely been given a look in. Finishing with Ford, Farrell, Slade, Daly and Malins all on the pitch showed everything you could ever want to know about how Jones has decided we're going to play. our game for as long as he's with us from now on is going to be 100% about playing the percentages and dominating territory. It'll work to an extent but we're going to be boring as fuck to watch other than the odd flash of brilliance from the only actual winger he seems willing to put any trust in.
He's done great things for the national team and was a big upgrade on the useless old boy appointments that came before him but I'd be looking to move him on soon because his stubbornness is hurting us now and the more people call for a proper 12, proper wingers and less kicking the more likely he will be to just stick with it.
While we’re winning games I can’t see anything changing, mate.
Fords kicking from hand was poor today, as was Farrell's kicking off the tee.
I would like to see the Simmonds brothers both in the squad and we certainly need to blood a young scrum half.
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Like all good teams we found a way to win.
If Farrell had bought his kicking boots we wouldn’t have been under so much pressure.
France are certainly going to be a team to watch for the next few years
The thing is our U20 from the year before were easily as good as the U20 team that french team was built around but most of ours have barely been given a look in. Finishing with Ford, Farrell, Slade, Daly and Malins all on the pitch showed everything you could ever want to know about how Jones has decided we're going to play. our game for as long as he's with us from now on is going to be 100% about playing the percentages and dominating territory. It'll work to an extent but we're going to be boring as fuck to watch other than the odd flash of brilliance from the only actual winger he seems willing to put any trust in.
He's done great things for the national team and was a big upgrade on the useless old boy appointments that came before him but I'd be looking to move him on soon because his stubbornness is hurting us now and the more people call for a proper 12, proper wingers and less kicking the more likely he will be to just stick with it.
While we’re winning games I can’t see anything changing, mate.
Fords kicking from hand was poor today, as was Farrell's kicking off the tee.
I would like to see the Simmonds brothers both in the squad and we certainly need to blood a young scrum half.
We needed that quality scrum half & fly half 60 caps ago....Youngs & Ford have never been top quality...always thought Youngs looked good from bench, never from start
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Like all good teams we found a way to win.
If Farrell had bought his kicking boots we wouldn’t have been under so much pressure.
France are certainly going to be a team to watch for the next few years
The thing is our U20 from the year before were easily as good as the U20 team that french team was built around but most of ours have barely been given a look in. Finishing with Ford, Farrell, Slade, Daly and Malins all on the pitch showed everything you could ever want to know about how Jones has decided we're going to play. our game for as long as he's with us from now on is going to be 100% about playing the percentages and dominating territory. It'll work to an extent but we're going to be boring as fuck to watch other than the odd flash of brilliance from the only actual winger he seems willing to put any trust in.
He's done great things for the national team and was a big upgrade on the useless old boy appointments that came before him but I'd be looking to move him on soon because his stubbornness is hurting us now and the more people call for a proper 12, proper wingers and less kicking the more likely he will be to just stick with it.
While we’re winning games I can’t see anything changing, mate.
Fords kicking from hand was poor today, as was Farrell's kicking off the tee.
I would like to see the Simmonds brothers both in the squad and we certainly need to blood a young scrum half.
We needed that quality scrum half & fly half 60 caps ago....Youngs & Ford have never been top quality...always thought Youngs looked good from bench, never from start
Robson has been the best 9 in the league for at least 3 years and Cipriani spent most of that time tearing teams open from 10. The players have been there but Jones wants a 9 and 10 that play the percentages and let the forwards win the games through sheer physicality. Losing the world cup made him double down on that and push the kicking game even harder.
Robson and Mitchell would be my choices at 9 and at 10 I'd go with Farrell and Smith or Umaga. That way Slade can step in to 12 and we can bring in Marchant who's currently the best centre in the league. Lawrence works well as a backup and then we can have a discussion about what to do once Manu is back fit. For me Daly has gone backwards for the last year or so and I'd drop him with a back 3 of May, Watson and Furbank for now but with Watson going to 15 and Nowell in when he's fit. Cokanasiga from the bench as an impact sub is the obvious choice to give us someone to worry tired defenders.
In the forwards the only change I'd make is Simmonds on the bench ahead of Earl, I'd like a better backup at tighthead though, I don't think Stuart is good enough. It's a shame that we have loads of good loosehead options and nothing much on the other side, maybe someone can convince Saints to push Iyogun that way because he could well be the best prop in the country in a year or 2.
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I clean forgot about the England v France B game yesterday.
After reading the above, I doubt that I'll be catching up
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That was like watching Stuart Lancaster’s death throes, Jones is kidding himself and believes his own ego and hype if he thinks he can talk his way out of that absolute shit show.
He needs to drop his mates and start picking players on their form.
Drop the kick fest shit.
Show some attacking intent.
The premiership is great to watch so is the Southern Hemisphere game, watching England now is boring shit, even the few fans in Twickenham yesterday were booing Eddie. It’s fucking boring.
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That was like watching Stuart Lancaster’s death throes, Jones is kidding himself and believes his own ego and hype if he thinks he can talk his way out of that absolute shit show.
He needs to drop his mates and start picking players on their form.
Drop the kick fest shit.
Show some attacking intent.
The premiership is great to watch so is the Southern Hemisphere game, watching England now is boring shit, even the few fans in Twickenham yesterday were booing Eddie. It’s fucking boring.
More important than it being boring is that won't work against the best sides. Wales and Ireland are both transitioning towards 2023 and France were forced to field a reserve team so these 3 wins do little more than paper over the cracks.
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I hope in spite of his outburst in the media he will reflect on how we’ve played and realise it’s not the way forward. Winning is not the be all and end all at this point - your performances have to show an upward curve. Teams that cling onto wins with increasingly poor performances eventually drop off a cliff, because it’s performances that underpin everything.
England were bloody rubbish yesterday and really disjointed - that will not lead to winning rugby in the long-term.
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I hope in spite of his outburst in the media he will reflect on how we’ve played and realise it’s not the way forward. Winning is not the be all and end all at this point - your performances have to show an upward curve. Teams that cling onto wins with increasingly poor performances eventually drop off a cliff, because it’s performances that underpin everything.
England were bloody rubbish yesterday and really disjointed - that will not lead to winning rugby in the long-term.
Agreed, for me yesterday was the worst England performance since Lancaster imploded at a world cup. Funnily enough the final straw for me was him moving Joseph onto the wing with Youngs, Ford and Farrell at 9, 10, 12 against Australia.
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Nigel Owens has decided to retire from international rugby after 100 Tests
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55276742
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Shame that, he'll be hard to replace.
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Like the best refs in all sports, he was able to work with, and earn the respect of, the players.
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Wayne Barnes is certainly up there
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Wayne Barnes is certainly up there
The difference between the 2 for me (and what sets Owens apart) is that Barnes has a few people he likes and doesn't like are that affects his judgement at times (and I think that's true of almost every ref I've watched or played with) Owens has always seemed able to distance his opinion on players from his decisions better than most, it's why he's so highly respected in the game.
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Wayne earns bonus points because he went to the same school as I did and I used to work with his father in law. :)
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55766166
England Six Nations squad
Backs: Elliot Daly, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Ollie Lawrence, Max Malins, Jonny May, Paolo Odogwu, Harry Randall, Dan Robson, Henry Slade, Anthony Watson, Ben Youngs.
Forwards: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Tom Curry, Tom Dunn, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Joe Marler, Beno Obano, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola, Harry Williams, Mark Wilson.
Shadow squad:
Charlie Atkinson, Ali Crossdale, Tom Dunn, Charlie Ewels, George Furbank, Joe Heyes, Jonathan Joseph, Joe Marchant, George Martin, Alex Mitchell, Jacob Umaga, Jack Willis.
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I think Marchant should be in the main squad.
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Not having Furbank and Willis in the main squad is just odd, not having Simmonds in (given he's probably the form player in Europe right now) just makes Jones look petty, he's better than Earl and Wilson and would give us a genuine alternative at 8.
Ali Crossdale being in the shadow squad is just fucking bizarre, he's played about 5 matches in his career and plays for a championship club.
For me Ford, Wilson and Earl out of the squad replaced by Furbank, Willis and Simmonds is a better balance.
I'm also not sure about Randall, he reminds a lot of Youngs, with all the same weaknesses.
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Best of luck to England in their quest for runners-up spot behind Grand Slam winning Scotland.
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Best of luck to England in their quest for runners-up spot behind Grand Slam winning Scotland.
Crack is a terrible thing.
More of this today thanks, shame we won't get to see Queen Nippy's boat race looking like she's been licking piss off a nettle though.
(https://i.ibb.co/34XXrj2/146174697-10157438872267000-3659874429203404839-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34XXrj2)
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Got to be honest more than any other sport I find the rugby really flat without fans.
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Yes, it isn't the same without double-barrelled arseholes quarreling about whose turn it is get the Pimm's.
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Got to be honest more than any other sport I find the rugby really flat without fans.
I agree, rugby does need the fans.
First game was good though, Dupont is a special player and Italy were as infuriating as always, they get battered but it's genuinely only fine margins. Things like the 2nd try shouldn't happen, that just a lack of understanding, you have to have your 9 or 7 drop in 5-10yards behind your defensive line there and then he doesn't even try the kick.
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The England training kit with the ivory base and golden rose is stunning.
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Neither team doing much to dispell the stereotype of rugby being a game for Tories before kick off then. Very poor. Can't even be arsed to kneel for five seconds to show opposition to racism. Scotland worse than England, too. Public school twats.
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5 penalties conceded in 10 minutes. Brilliant discipline from England......
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I still don't understand this. While I want Scotland to win, why aren't England allowed to charge the ball down, I thought that didn't count as a knock-on?
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Yes good to see we’ve got our age old discipline issues sorted.
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England need to play the ref better but a lot of the penalties his given that have been borderline at best.
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England need to play the ref better but a lot of the penalties his given that have been borderline at best.
I disagree to be honest. Think they've all been fair enough
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20 seconds after a warning, another penalty. Deserved yellow card
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This is pretty terrible stuff.
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England are pish, this is embarrassing.
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9 penalties in less than 25 minutes is shambolic.
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England need to play the ref better but a lot of the penalties his given that have been borderline at best.
I disagree to be honest. Think they've all been fair enough
By the letterof the law yes, but 90% of the time you'd have seen no more than 3-4 of the 9 we've had given.
Yellow was 100% though, fucking horribly lazy from Billy.
Jones needs to earn his money because we've been really sloppy in possession which is where the chance for penalties to be given is coming from. Youngs in particular has bene fucking dreadful.
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10 penalties
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I've seen this before. Scotland will fail to score. England will be 7-3 up at half-time and will win by at least thirty.
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I've seen this before. Scotland will fail to score. England will be 7-3 up at half-time and will win by at least thirty.
Not happening, Scotland are going to win this comfortably
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This is ridiculous. Rugby needs to sort this out. Over 4 minutes have just gone off the clock with nothing at all happening.
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HOLY SHIT A TRY!!!!!!
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That's fucking pathetic defending from Daly.
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Deserved try. England have been awful. Scotland have played with intent.
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Maybe Eddie should have focussed on preparation, rather than pointless sniping in the press. England have been fucking abject.
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The problem for England is that Jones keeps picking on players because they've done it for him before regardless of form. Billy V shouldn't be anywhere near the England team at the minute, he's just not played enough games, and Daly and Youngs haven't been international standard for 2-3 years.
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Russell doing something just as stupid as Billy V to put the scots down to 14, really poor.
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Scotland have blown their chance to win the game IMO.
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Big first 7 or 8 minutes of the second half now England.
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Really flattered by the scoreline and Russell's stupidity has changed the dynamic. England also should count themselves lucky that the ref allowed nearly 5 minutes to come off Vunipolas sin bin with all that shite at the scrum by our line. Rugby needs to sort that out as it's not good enough.
I'm close to done with this turgid shite that England keep serving up. A continuation of the performance against the French 3rd team.
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We have the players to be so much better than this. We got off lightly in that first 30 minutes, the Scots should have been streets ahead of us. They’re much better than they were but lack a killer instinct.
We got away with it in that half.
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We can’t be that bad again, can we?
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Really flattered by the scoreline and Russell's stupidity has changed the dynamic. England also should count themselves lucky that the ref allowed nearly 5 minutes to come off Vunipolas sin bin with all that shite at the scrum by our line. Rugby needs to sort that out as it's not good enough.
I'm close to done with this turgid shite that England keep serving up. A continuation of the performance against the French 3rd team.
I think Jones is nearly done to be honest, he was brilliant when he came in but the he shit himself after the world cup and we haven't played well since. As above 3 players in this squad are there entirely by reputation.
Also George is great around the pitch but he still hasn't learned how to throw under pressure.
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Pathetic start to the 2nd half from England, first defeat at home to Scotland in 38 years looks on the cards here. Hopefully it's the kick up the ass Jones needs to abandon this bullshit game plan.
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There's one team interested in playing Rugby tonight, and its not England.
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FFS. What the fuck was that kick?
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I feel for Lawrence most, picked to be a bulldozer at 12 and hasn't been given a single fucking pass.
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A large part of me wants Scotland to win this now. We have been the Burnley of Rugby today.
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Does feel like this could be a watershed moment.
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A large part of me wants Scotland to win this now. We have been the Burnley of Rugby today.
I'll never want them to lose but if it means Jones completely rethinks everything he's done since the world cup I'll accept it because we've been sub-standard ever since SA did a number on us.
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Well played Scotland they never really had to play that well to beat a shit England. Times up Jones.
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YAAAAAAAAASSSS
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Scotland do know they didn’t just win the World Cup right?
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One down, four to go.
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A small heath view ‘We woz robbed, spawney jocks’
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Well done Scotland.
England - an utter shameful disgrace. Jones keep your mouth shut and sort this shambles of a team out.
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Credit to Scotland, they were very good and dominant in every aspect of the game. 11-6 massively flatters England and in no way conveys the story of the game.
I'm glad in many respects. If England had sneaked a win playing that style of Rugby it wouldn't have reflected well on the sport at all. Jones is now 100% the Allardyce of Rugby. Genuinely don't think I'll bother watching anymore England games in this 6 nations.
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England looked totally off the pace.
It was as if it was the first game in a pre season friendly.
I said at the end of the Autumn games that Scotland could be the team to watch
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Jones needs to be ashamed of that, entirely on him, fucking shit game plan, shit team selection to stick with the sarries players, the only one who earned his shirt today was Itoje. Vunipola, George and Daly were fucking awful, Youngs is shit and Farrell needs to have the bollocks to ignore the gameplan when it's so obviously not working or he can fuck off as well.
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A large part of me wants Scotland to win this now. We have been the Burnley of Rugby today.
We have been like that for too long now. Compounded by the fact that there’s such a wealth of talent. The 9/10 axis needs a rethink.
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Any day an Eddie Jones team loses is a good day. Well done Scotland!
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England looked totally off the pace.
It was as if it was the first game in a pre season friendly.
I said at the end of the Autumn games that Scotland could be the team to watch
For the 5 sarries players it pretty much was. They've barely played for a year and that was clear as day. On top of that we just kicked away possession over and over again and didn't even kick well, Hogg got MotM because we kept giving him the ball in space to carry back to us.
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That was shit
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A large part of me wants Scotland to win this now. We have been the Burnley of Rugby today.
We have been like that for too long now. Compounded by the fact that there’s such a wealth of talent. The 9/10 axis needs a rethink.
8 as well, Vunipola was shit and more importantly fucking lazy today. Anyone who watches that today and thinks Simmonds wouldn't be a massive upgrade needs to give their head a wobble. Sadly the guy picking the team is one of them.
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A large part of me wants Scotland to win this now. We have been the Burnley of Rugby today.
I'll never want them to lose but if it means Jones completely rethinks everything he's done since the world cup I'll accept it because we've been sub-standard ever since SA did a number on us.
I think Jones is too arrogant for that. He shot his mouth off over the criticism after we narrowly beat the French 3rd team.
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The weirdest thing, and I swear this is true, is that around the 60 minute mark I realised I had no idea who the England centres were. Couldn't say who was 12 and 13 as didn't see them get near the ball. I presume Slade was 13, but who was 12 ?
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The weirdest thing, and I swear this is true, is that around the 60 minute mark I realised I had no idea who the England centres were. Couldn't say who was 12 and 13 as didn't see them get near the ball. I presume Slade was 13, but who was 12 ?
Ollie Lawrence, got 1 touch in 6o odd minutes and then got subbed off, he'll probably get dropped to put farrell back there because Jones has lost the fucking plot.
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Also, has Billy V made a single yard with ball-in-hand since 2018 ? I remember saying during the WC that he looked unrecognisable from the wrecking ball of old, and today all I saw was a yellow card from a chunky doppelganger.
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How many times is it that Jones has come out saying he hasn’t prepared the team properly? Didn’t he say exactly the same after we lost to France last year? Just what the fuck are you playing at then Eddie?
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Surely there is an English scrum half better than Youngs?? Even in his pomp (if he ever had one) he was a half decent replacement for last 25 minutes.
Billy V is shot on that performance, just lumbered round like it was a vets match.
If that is the way Jones wants England to play they might as well pick 12 forwards because box kicking everything means there is zero chance 10,12 or 13 get a chance to do anything.
Scotland walked that on passion alone
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How many times is it that Jones has come out saying he hasn’t prepared the team properly? Didn’t he say exactly the same after we lost to France last year? Just what the fuck are you playing at then Eddie?
It's a tired, easy get out to not have to admit that our shit anti rugby tactics have been exposed by a team that wanted to play rugby. We've scraped past some poor teams playing it and Jones takes that as all is well in the camp.
There is way too much talent in the English game for the national team to play so soullessly
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Also, has Billy V made a single yard with ball-in-hand since 2018 ? I remember saying during the WC that he looked unrecognisable from the wrecking ball of old, and today all I saw was a yellow card from a chunky doppelganger.
I’ve been saying for some time now that Sam Simmonds should be in.
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Surely there is an English scrum half better than Youngs?? Even in his pomp (if he ever had one) he was a half decent replacement for last 25 minutes.
Billy V is shot on that performance, just lumbered round like it was a vets match.
If that is the way Jones wants England to play they might as well pick 12 forwards because box kicking everything means there is zero chance 10,12 or 13 get a chance to do anything.
Scotland walked that on passion alone
Dan Robson, allowed to play his natural game, is a massive upgrade at 9 and there's 3-4 options for the bench that are better than youngs as well Randall and Mitchell being the 2 that are around the England squad. So long as he ignores Spencer (who would just be in for his box kick) I don't think he could get it all that wrong by picking any club except Leicester and picking their best English 9, it'd probably be an upgrade.
Vunipola has lost the bit of mobility he had and just can't get round the pitch now, Wilson was fucking shit as well. Willis, Earl and particularly Simmonds should be joining Underhill and Curry as the back row options.
The biggest problem is the insistence on picking kickers that he trusts in the backs. I'd give this lot the rest of this 6N and if they're still kicking the ball away I'd replace pretty much all of them. Ford, Farrell, Slade, Watson and Daly probably all need to be left out for a while:
Robson, Smith; Lawrence, Marchant; Odogwu, May, Furbank
would be my backline on current form with Michell/Randall, O'Connor, Malins as the replacements. I know May was awful today but he's been one of the 3-4 best wingers in the world in the last 2 years so he has credit in the bank with me.
Props, Locks and Curry were fine today, George looked short of matches (and threw terribly) but again has credit in the bank. With the props we have to come back and Launchbury to come into the mix I'm fine with that part of the field, even if the scrum struggled today, I put most of the fault there with Jones for picking players that just weren't fit.
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Sorry, for all you have been championing Robson, I thought he was awful and far worse than Youngs today. England either have to play a kicking game that puts pressure on the opposition back 3 or develop a better running game. Ford at least has the ability to get the runners over the gainline and through gaps. Farrell is nowhere near a top class 10 these days, he's better at 12 now on the international stage.
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This 6-Nations will be weird regardless. Saracens players will be under-cooked, no crowds etc. It’d be a shame if we use this period to trot down the same path, rinse and repeat. It’d be better if we told Itoje, Farrell and Vinipola to take a year off. The vacuum would create opportunities and encourage players to step up.
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Amongst my (our) whingeing, it has to be said Scotland were superb. I’d be happy if they can maintain it and win the 6-nations.
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Sorry, for all you have been championing Robson, I thought he was awful and far worse than Youngs today. England either have to play a kicking game that puts pressure on the opposition back 3 or develop a better running game. Ford at least has the ability to get the runners over the gainline and through gaps. Farrell is nowhere near a top class 10 these days, he's better at 12 now on the international stage.
Robson today wasn't the player who's been running games for Wasps for the last few years, he kicked a lot more and the runners around him were awful. He is a proper 9 though, mainly because his passes generally go into 'the box' rather than being head high, knee high or 2 yards in front of the player which are all Youngs specialities.
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Amongst my (our) whingeing, it has to be said Scotland were superb. I’d be happy if they can maintain it and win the 6-nations.
Scotland were excellent but their 2 best players are Hogg and Russell and we played in a way that gave those 2 time and space to control the match.
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Amongst my (our) whingeing, it has to be said Scotland were superb. I’d be happy if they can maintain it and win the 6-nations.
Scotland were excellent but their 2 best players are Hogg and Russell and we played in a way that gave those 2 time and space to control the match.
When ever I’ve watched him, Russell is either a 10/10 or a 2/10
Next game he’ll probably play as if he’s never seen a rugby ball in his life.
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Amongst my (our) whingeing, it has to be said Scotland were superb. I’d be happy if they can maintain it and win the 6-nations.
Scotland were excellent but their 2 best players are Hogg and Russell and we played in a way that gave those 2 time and space to control the match.
When ever I’ve watched him, Russell is either a 10/10 or a 2/10
Next game he’ll probably play as if he’s never seen a rugby ball in his life.
Basically he is like every 10 who has played for France in the last 20 years :-)
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Amongst my (our) whingeing, it has to be said Scotland were superb. I’d be happy if they can maintain it and win the 6-nations.
Scotland were excellent but their 2 best players are Hogg and Russell and we played in a way that gave those 2 time and space to control the match.
When ever I’ve watched him, Russell is either a 10/10 or a 2/10
Next game he’ll probably play as if he’s never seen a rugby ball in his life.
Basically he is like every 10 who has played for France in the last 20 years :-)
I think a lot of the French followers would ask where the 10/10 games were from the likes of Beauxis, Trinh Duc and Michalak. Some proper over-hyped, if not exactly dross, 10s over here. Without forgetting the kid they put in who was so young he was basically a foetus in a blue shirt and promptly got injured about 3 seconds into his debut, such was the desperation to find "the" 10. The Dupont-Ntamack does look damn good though (despite Ntamack looking like he could be made of glass and spend half his career on the physios table).
Edit: looked it up, Jalibert was the foetus (albeit 19 years old), and lasted 29 minutes on début.
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Russell plays on the edge, he throws a lot of passes that are try scoring chances if they come off but are a chance at a counter-attack try if they don't. That means he'll have stinkers every now and then but he's been hit more than miss for the last couple of years. For me he's the best 10 in the NH right now.
On the game today o'Mahony is a fucking idiot but Ireland were unlucky not to get something out of it, played really well for a team that was a man down for over an hour, Keenan at full back was exceptional.
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Amongst my (our) whingeing, it has to be said Scotland were superb. I’d be happy if they can maintain it and win the 6-nations.
Scotland were excellent but their 2 best players are Hogg and Russell and we played in a way that gave those 2 time and space to control the match.
When ever I’ve watched him, Russell is either a 10/10 or a 2/10
Next game he’ll probably play as if he’s never seen a rugby ball in his life.
I think he's overrated and was poor yesterday. Bad place kicking, got himself in the bin and one out on the full.
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What an uninspired starting 15 that is.
At least Ford is back at 10 assuming fucking Youngs hasn’t box kicked it.
Still the 5 unfit Saracens players in there again.
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What an uninspired starting 15 that is.
At least Ford is back at 10 assuming fucking Youngs hasn’t box kicked it.
Still the 5 unfit Saracens players in there again.
He's got players like Lawrence, Odogwu, Randall, Malins and Willis in the squad who could all do with some caps in a lower pressure game and yet he picked pretty much the most experienced side he could and only put 2 of them on the bench, he's unravelling quickly now and falling into the same pattern that almost all managers in all sports do where he's scared to drop players who've been good for him even when they're no longer working.
It's scary how similar to Southgate it is, started well by focusing on the strengths of the squad and bringing in players based on form that expand on that. Have a decent tournament despite some issues but then instead of addressing those issues go off on a tangent and end up with a squad that isn't so suited to how you're trying to play but that you 'trust' so they keep their places regardless whilst the form players in the league are left twiddling their thumbs.
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What an uninspired starting 15 that is.
At least Ford is back at 10 assuming fucking Youngs hasn’t box kicked it.
Still the 5 unfit Saracens players in there again.
He's got players like Lawrence, Odogwu, Randall, Malins and Willis in the squad who could all do with some caps in a lower pressure game and yet he picked pretty much the most experienced side he could and only put 2 of them on the bench, he's unravelling quickly now and falling into the same pattern that almost all managers in all sports do where he's scared to drop players who've been good for him even when they're no longer working.
It's scary how similar to Southgate it is, started well by focusing on the strengths of the squad and bringing in players based on form that expand on that. Have a decent tournament despite some issues but then instead of addressing those issues go off on a tangent and end up with a squad that isn't so suited to how you're trying to play but that you 'trust' so they keep their places regardless whilst the form players in the league are left twiddling their thumbs.
Was saying something along these lines today.
What has Sam Simmonds done to upset Jones?
9 and 10 of Robson and Umanga (?)
Watson at 15
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England have been very poor to start, yes we've scored to get back in it but there's no fluency here, compare how France handled these last week and the difference is stark.
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Pathetic discipline again too
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Pathetic discipline again too
I think Cowan-Dickie was unlucky for the one they scored from though, should've been a pen the other way for a neck roll in my opinion, what the Italian was doing was dangerous, what LCD did was a minor technical infringement.
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Youngs is, yet again, pissing me right off here. He just can't pass, if you're running on to the ball at pace you want it in a box between waist and shoulder height and about a foot in front of you but he hardly ever passes there. He throws loads that people either take my their side or in front of their face and it means the receiver constantly has to drag their feet to not overrun the ball and all our line breaks become about physique rather than running lines and footwork. It's why we're so predictable.
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Italy have played into our hands after the first 10 minutes really, their kicking game has been awful and has let us carry back at them too easily.
Even with that Farrell and Billy V have bene peripheral at best and Youngs and Daly have made silly mistakes.
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Following on from last week's moaning about Billy V, this week I'll pick on Elliot Daly. Has he beaten a man with ball-in-hand in the last year ? Everytime I see him he runs up to the line, looks great doing it, then either passes or gets wrapped up. I understand no player will slice through the defensive line every time, not even Jason Robinson, but could he do it just once ?
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Following on from last week's moaning about Billy V, this week I'll pick on Elliot Daly. Has he beaten a man with ball-in-hand in the last year ? Everytime I see him he runs up to the line, looks great doing it, then either passes or gets wrapped up. I understand no player will slice through the defensive line every time, not even Jason Robinson, but could he do it just once ?
Agreed, he shouldn't be anywhere near the squad right now.
Robson on earlier that expected, lets see if he can have an impact.
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Brilliant break by Robson in the build up for that try.
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Mad 10 minute appearance for Willis....hope he is ok
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Mad 10 minute appearance for Willis....hope he is ok
He isn't, I'd be amazed if that isn't a serious injury, looked a lot like what happened to Wesley.
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Poor old Willis, blimey.
Italy have been magnificent.
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Mad 10 minute appearance for Willis....hope he is ok
He isn't, I'd be amazed if that isn't a serious injury, looked a lot like what happened to Wesley.
I missed it live & turned away from the replay but he didn’t look in a good way on the stretcher...hope for his sake it isn’t a Wesley injury
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Mad 10 minute appearance for Willis....hope he is ok
He isn't, I'd be amazed if that isn't a serious injury, looked a lot like what happened to Wesley.
I missed it live & turned away from the replay but he didn’t look in a good way on the stretcher...hope for his sake it isn’t a Wesley injury
We'll see but it looked like his knee went sideways by a fair way. As nasty an injury as I've seen for a while.
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Meh performance really.
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Mad 10 minute appearance for Willis....hope he is ok
He isn't, I'd be amazed if that isn't a serious injury, looked a lot like what happened to Wesley.
I missed it live & turned away from the replay but he didn’t look in a good way on the stretcher...hope for his sake it isn’t a Wesley injury
We'll see but it looked like his knee went sideways by a fair way. As nasty an injury as I've seen for a while.
Think Jack Willis has already had 2 ACL injuries and fear for him and his likely recovery. I'll also say that Robson's introduction led to faster ball and wonder if Jones would even consider dropping Youngs, given that he's one of Jones's favourites and almost undroppable.
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Dan Robson might have just ended Youngs England career there.
What cup do Wales and Scotland play for? Is it the ‘If it weren’t for Italy we’d be winning the wooden spoon cup’?
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Dan Robson might have just ended Youngs England career there.
What cup do Wales and Scotland play for? Is it the ‘If it weren’t for Italy we’d be winning the wooden spoon cup’?
As with all the nations except Italy and England, it's the "We hate England more than you" trophy.
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Dan Robson might have just ended Youngs England career there.
What cup do Wales and Scotland play for? Is it the ‘If it weren’t for Italy we’d be winning the wooden spoon cup’?
Fingers crossed, that's the sort of performance I've been waiting for from Robson for England, that's the player he's been at wasps for the last few years.
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I expected a decent performance from Wales today but they've been awful in the backfield defence, 2 tries that were far too easy for Scotland, Pivac might might not last the year.
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Red card for the scots was harsh but he was very silly to put himself in that position.
It's a very good game though, not much between these 2.
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Dan Robson might have just ended Youngs England career there.
We can but hope - Youngs like Care always did ok as a replacement but as a starter? 100+ caps seems mad
Do we have other young English scrum halves who could back up Robson??
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Dan Robson might have just ended Youngs England career there.
We can but hope - Youngs like Care always did ok as a replacement but as a starter? 100+ caps seems mad
Do we have other young English scrum halves who could back up Robson??
Randall and Mitchell are the 2 for me. Randall is sharp around the fringes and will makes breaks (but i have a few concerns about his passing), Mitchell is a great passer and has an extra yard of pace. That would be my 3 in the squad.
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Matt Dawson putting the blame fairly and squarely at Farrell's feet on the BBC, can't really argue with his comments.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56048366
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Matt Dawson putting the blame fairly and squarely at Farrell's feet on the BBC, can't really argue with his comments.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56048366
I agree with most of what he says but I'd add Billy V and Youngs as well, none of them has played well with any consistency since the world cup and it means we've been almost totally reliant on individual brilliance and set pieces for 18months now.
It will be interesting to see what he does to replace Willis as well, Simmonds was, once again, superb yesterday, ignoring him is no different to the southgate and grealish situation now, anyone who watches premiership rugby would have Simmonds in the team and largely build around him. Ignoring anything else 11 tries in 9 games from the back row this season means you have to call him up.
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That was a try, inconclusive on the TMO you have to give that surely.
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That was a try, inconclusive on the TMO you have to give that surely.
The Irish one? I assume you posted before they showed the clear foot in touch.
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I watched the second half of Scotland v Wales yesterday and the clear and efficient use of VAR was a joy to behold and a lesson to football. Which football will doubtless ignore because we have nothing to learn from other sports.
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That was a try, inconclusive on the TMO you have to give that surely.
The Irish one? I assume you posted before they showed the clear foot in touch.
Ha ha yep, clearly in touch from that camera.
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I watched the second half of Scotland v Wales yesterday and the clear and efficient use of VAR was a joy to behold and a lesson to football. Which football will doubtless ignore because we have nothing to learn from other sports.
Rugby is miles ahead with using technology. I just don't get why they're getting it so wrong when there are basic improvements that could be made easily.
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I watched the second half of Scotland v Wales yesterday and the clear and efficient use of VAR was a joy to behold and a lesson to football. Which football will doubtless ignore because we have nothing to learn from other sports.
Rugby is miles ahead with using technology. I just don't get why they're getting it so wrong when there are basic improvements that could be made easily.
It was a very enjoyable game too by the by. Partly due to very good refereeing. Scotland must have been kicking themselves after the game.
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I watched the second half of Scotland v Wales yesterday and the clear and efficient use of VAR was a joy to behold and a lesson to football. Which football will doubtless ignore because we have nothing to learn from other sports.
Rugby is miles ahead with using technology. I just don't get why they're getting it so wrong when there are basic improvements that could be made easily.
It was a very enjoyable game too by the by. Partly due to very good refereeing. Scotland must have been kicking themselves after the game.
The English refs are superb at the minute, Was Matthew Carley yesterday and it's Luke Pearce today, both have managed the games brilliantly.
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Urghh scenes at the end there, seeing Sean Edwards in a French rugby jacket, he must have done something or said something very rude to some old fart at the RFU. Happily see him in the England job one day.
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Pretty much confirmed that Willis is out until at least next season:
Wasps head coach Lee Blackett is expecting Willis to be out of action for a lengthy period.
“It sounds like he has done quite a few things with his knee,” Blackett said.
“It’s pretty serious, but it looks like he has not done his ACL. He will spend a long time out, I should imagine.”
Glad it's not the ACL and the 12-18 months that would mean though.
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Apparently England are struggling with a lack of arousal. I'm not sure what that means he's planning to do as a fix but the game will be very different if the little blue pills come out.
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Apparently England are struggling with a lack of arousal. I'm not sure what that means he's planning to do as a fix but the game will be very different if the little blue pills come out.
The box of pills would come out & Ben Youngs would just oof it away
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That reminds me of the 80s tale my RL-supporting mate told me about the England RU team going to a pre-match meal.
Brian Barley (centre from Wakefield?) said to England fly-half Les Cusworth, "Pass t'salt, Les."
So Cusworth kicked it off the table...
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:-)
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The choice to replace Willis in the squad may be the most bizarre selection decision I've ever seen. Instead of looking around the league at some of the exceptional back row talent (Simmonds, Dombrandt, Hill, other Willis, other Curry, Ludlow, Ludlam, Harrison and plenty more) they've called up a lock who's played 7 games (ever). I'm too confused to even be annoyed about it.
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That reminds me of the 80s tale my RL-supporting mate told me about the England RU team going to a pre-match meal.
Brian Barley (centre from Wakefield?) said to England fly-half Les Cusworth, "Pass t'salt, Les."
So Cusworth kicked it off the table...
A bit unfair that. Cusworth was an attacking Fly-Half. If he had been more kick oriented*, he'd have had more caps for England.
* ignoring drop goals. Les did like a drop goal
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The choice to replace Willis in the squad may be the most bizarre selection decision I've ever seen. Instead of looking around the league at some of the exceptional back row talent (Simmonds, Dombrandt, Hill, other Willis, other Curry, Ludlow, Ludlam, Harrison and plenty more) they've called up a lock who's played 7 games (ever). I'm too confused to even be annoyed about it.
I'm resigned to the fact that it'll be like this until Jones is got rid of.
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The choice to replace Willis in the squad may be the most bizarre selection decision I've ever seen. Instead of looking around the league at some of the exceptional back row talent (Simmonds, Dombrandt, Hill, other Willis, other Curry, Ludlow, Ludlam, Harrison and plenty more) they've called up a lock who's played 7 games (ever). I'm too confused to even be annoyed about it.
I'm resigned to the fact that it'll be like this until Jones is got rid of.
Sooner the better
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Surprised to see some international players turning out for their clubs this weekend, eg Zammo for Glawster.
I thought they were in international bubbles
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How many more players need to go down with the bug before France v Scotland gets called off
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How many more players need to go down with the bug before France v Scotland gets called off
Should've been called off as soon as they got the results today so the scots could go back to their clubs for a week, I don't see any value in kicking it until Wednesday.
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Scotland v Whateversleftofthefrancesquad is on
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Scotland v Whateversleftofthefrancesquad is on
Pathetic decision, I'd quite like France to publicly call it as such.
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Now off.
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So, to avoid France being understrength, they are likely to postpone it to next week when Scotland will be without ten players? That sounds fair...
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So, to avoid France being understrength, they are likely to postpone it to next week when Scotland will be without ten players? That sounds fair...
This is why there needed to be an early decision to give them time to negotiate with the clubs and leagues to resolve this.
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So, to avoid France being understrength, they are likely to postpone it to next week when Scotland will be without ten players? That sounds fair...
This is why there needed to be an early decision to give them time to negotiate with the clubs and leagues to resolve this.
Just to come back to this a new case was found yesterday which has, finally, prompted a full quarantine meaning they won't be available to play next weekend anyway.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56196639
I can't imagine the rescheduled game going ahead with Scotland missing half their matchday squad but getting the game played is going to be a nightmare. Normally playing at the end of the season would be an option but with the Lions tour that's unlikely. It might end up being played as a pre-season game as things stand. Of course it might also end up with Scotland awarded the points because there's rumours that a big part of the problem was due to a breech of protocols.
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3 penalties conceded in the first 4 minutes. England just don't learn do they?
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England have just gifted Wales 10 points with poor discipline and not bothering to get set. What on earth have they been doing preperation wise over the last fortnight?
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That from the ref is fucking shit, the penalty against Farrell was harsh anyway but to then restart whilst England players still had water bottles is poor. Technically there's nothing wrong but a decent ref give a bit of notice.
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I think this ref wants to be the star of the show in fairness
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That is utterly ridiculous.
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Rees Zammits reaction alone tells you its a knock on
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Some fucking shocking decisions from the ref here. England have been shit but you can't account for this.
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England have been utterly pathetic once again, but that awarding of a try is a disgrace
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Oh just fuck off Elliot Daly
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This is better from England but still not good enough.
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Having seen all the angles Gauzere should be removed from international refereeing immediately, fucking appalling decision, even the original penalty that led to it was harsh to then tell him to talk to his team and restarting play before they're back in decision is very close to intentional cheating.
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3rd Wales try, a lot of poor things about it (pathetic clear out by Hill in the main) but Daly just made a complete c**t of himself in the positioning to defend it.
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Glad to come on here and read that the consensus opinion by people who know more about rugby than me is that the ref is having a shocker. Unsurprisngly, perhaps, French TV aren't talking about it, but I got the impression thatche wasn't controlling the game at all in the first half.
That said, England are very dull, except when they finally seem to renounce the kicking game for 5 mins before the break and cut through the Welsh at will. Any chance Eddie Jones will put 2+2 together ?
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Ref just pissed me off again, Welsh SH lifts the ball, English midfield press forward, he tells them to stop and then when play has gone and they're caught milling around in midfield he confirms they were all onside, that's the sort of basic errors that you just can't make at this level as the ref.
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The ref has been really ropey.
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The refereeing has been a disgrace, but England's discipline has been worse. Jones simply has to be sacked now.
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The ref has been really ropey.
I had it on the radio. It got me thinking that like many on this site think there's much we could learn from rugby's use of VAR, perhaps there's a similar cohort amongst union fans thinking that aping soccer's use of it makes things a bit more edgey.
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Really poor from England. There were hints of improved fitness from the Scotland game but still far too many players in the team trying to find form. The international game isn't the place for that and it should cost him his job.
What is happening right now has far too many similarities to what he did with Australia after the 2003 world cup, I'd be happy if he's gone as soon as the final whistle in the last game of the 6N goes, he did well for a while but get rid and bring in Pat Lam now, for me.
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I thought it was pretty weird - Ford seemed to do really well at 10 when passing, seemed to make nice shapes, using decoys to create space and whenever we got it out to 13/11/14 we had Wales on the ropes. But silly individual errors (notably Daly, who muffed a knock-on when in space and then refused to pass to May) meant that we wznt back to a kick-heavy approach.
Daly, Vunipola, Farrell all have to go. I don't know who to replace them with, but England *must* have promising players somewhere at 15, 8 and 12/13 to replace them, because they're butchering everything they touch atm.
As for the Welsh, the only thing I can say is that the Welsh rugby union team is one sports team I have an almost irrational, borderline hatred for, so will leave it to less one-eyed observers to appreciate.
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I thought it was pretty weird - Ford seemed to do really well at 10 when passing, seemed to make nice shapes, using decoys to create space and whenever we got it out to 13/11/14 we had Wales on the ropes. But silly individual errors (notably Daly, who muffed a knock-on when in space and then refused to pass to May) meant that we wznt back to a kick-heavy approach.
Daly, Vunipola, Farrell all have to go. I don't know who to replace them with, but England *must* have promising players somewhere at 15, 8 and 12/13 to replace them, because they're butchering everything they touch atm.
As for the Welsh, the only thing I can say is that the Welsh rugby union team is one sports team I have an almost irrational, borderline hatred for, so will leave it to less one-eyed observers to appreciate.
I go on about it too often but Simmonds is the best 8 in Europe and Jones just won't look at him, it's infuriating. Dombrandt is great as well and would add something.
In the centres I like Lawrence, Odogwu, O'Connor and Marchant those 4 and Slade means we should never have to see Farrell at 12, Odogwu would also be excellent on the wing which would allow Watson to go to 15 and compete with Malins and Furbank.
At 10 Ford has done ok but Smith is the class act this season and should be heavily involved. At 9 I've made my dislike of Youngs very clear many, many times and despite his try today all the normal flaws were there to see, that said Robson really struggled today when he came on. Long term I think Alex Mitchell is the best option because his extra pace is really dangerous.
Further forward George is a great player but he's unfit and out of form, he can't start, Cowan-Dickie is miles ahead of him right now for me. Props are mostly ok and lock/6 we have so many injuries that there aren't a great deal of changes we can make right now.
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Not one of those Saracens players should have been considered for selection in this 6 nations....Simmonds not being in the squad is beyond bizarre & the continued picking of Youngs & Ford when they are both miles from world class without considering other options is annoying
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Despite the atrocious officiating, England got the game back to 24-24 with 20 minutes left. They then followed that up with 3 of the most braindead needless penalties you could wish to see.
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Despite the atrocious officiating, England got the game back to 24-24 with 20 minutes left. They then followed that up with 3 of the most braindead needless penalties you could wish to see.
I only watched the half time analysis of the big moments followed by the whole second half and I completely agree with you. To claw back a 10 points deficit with 20 minutes to go meant England should have used the momentum to kick on. Instead they gifted 3 quick and stupid penalties and pretty much ensured a Wales victory.
I’ve never played rugby but thought the Wales try when England weren’t ready was poor refereeing. The “knock on” try seemed legit to me and my non expert eyes, as the analysts explained that it touched his own leg before the ground.
England have a serious ongoing problem with penalties, as the excellent Warburton highlighted on BBC
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The England rugby team are a side that I now like to see lose. They had gradually won me over after years of me being ambivalent about them.
Jones’ selections are bizarre and I find Farrell unlikeable. .
None of the Saracens players should have been considered for selection.
The first try was England’s own fault. The ref told Farrell to have a word with his team. Farrell did this and the players started to break up. The ref did not tell England to also have a water break.
When I was playing, the knock on would have been play on because the ball was kicked before it hit the ground. However, in recent years, knock ons tend to be given as soon as the player loses control.
Therefore, for me, England have a better case to moan about the latter try than the former.
As others have said, it was England’s poor discipline that let them down. It’s now at the stage where Itoje is becoming a liability. The odd brilliant charge down is not worth the penalties he gives away.
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In case anyone has missed it Willis is currently expected to be out for about a year, poor guy after he worked his tits off to get back from his last bad injury.
And now to the criticism of Jones that I can't hold back from:
Simmonds was superb in the Exeter game this afternoon scored 1, played a big part in a couple of others but more importantly he's just so busy around the park, and does so much dirty work. We're in real danger of overlooking the best back row forward in Europe.
Odogwu was the best back in English rugby so England have called him up, refused to release him to his club and not even named him on the bench so he hasn't played for 2 months, what's the fucking point of that?
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Yes, a real shame about Willis, though the injury didn't look good.
I watched the Exeter game as well and commented how unbelievable it was that a European POTY can't get in the England squad, let alone the team.
Agree with your comments on the Wasps guy as well.
It looks like selection is well and truly broken. How this fit's in with Eddie's cunning plan to prepare new players for the next World Cup, I don't know.
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30 mins in and Wales already have their bonus point. In a stunning blow for patriotism, I now desperately want France to stuff England, take that momentum and give the Welsh a good hiding too. A French GS is bearable, a Welsh one is not.
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Oh my Lord! Try disallowed for forward pass shocker. Nice to see someone cares about the basic rule of the game.
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Storming start...
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To be fair England have been much better today because we're playing to our strengths instead of playing territory as we have been.
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Not just because it's been better from England but just in terms of general quality i think this has been the best match of this 6N by a long way, both teams playing some fantastic rugby.
France have a lot of players that are obviously fantastic but I reckon Fickou is the key to how they play, vastly underrated player.
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What a great game of rugby 🏉
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Step in the right direction - that French side is going places.
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Big win but it does paper over the cracks a little. We were great when it was an open game but when they put some structure on the game (which killed their own attack) we went really flat. Last 10 we looked fitter and I do wonder if that was, in part, due to the impact of their Covid outbreak.
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Best game of the 6N so far.
Ben Youngs wasn’t shit.
Wonders never cease.
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Excellent game, but sweet baby Jesus you can't trust the French with anything (!). Now reduced to hoping that they can beat the Welsh and Scots handily to prevent the former from jamming their way to a 6N title.
Not sure what it is about the white 15 shirt that turns whoever it is to mediocre, but was not too impressed by Malins. Curry and Itoje stood out for me, don't really understand how Watson got MotM (he wasn't shit, but didn't think he was amazing).
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Very good 80 minute (Well apart from the first 80 seconds !) performance by England against the best team that they have played since the WC final. As a game, it was head and shoulders above any other game in this season's 6Nations. Yes, Youngs had his best game for ages and Dupont faded as did a number of the French players in the 2nd half. I think the only reason ITV gave Watson MOM was because it was his 50th cap - England Rugby gave it to Tom Curry and I'm sure that Itoje couldn't have been far behind. As regards a replacement for Youngs looking forward to the 2023 WC, I'm tipping Raffi Quirke of Sale to be not far off selection as long as De Klerk is not still there at Sale as the number 1 scrum half. I'm not sure if the Saffers will need to go back home for the year before the WC.
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Very good 80 minute (Well apart from the first 80 seconds !) performance by England against the best team that they have played since the WC final. As a game, it was head and shoulders above any other game in this season's 6Nations. Yes, Youngs had his best game for ages and Dupont faded as did a number of the French players in the 2nd half. I think the only reason ITV gave Watson MOM was because it was his 50th cap - England Rugby gave it to Tom Curry and I'm sure that Itoje couldn't have been far behind. As regards a replacement for Youngs looking forward to the 2023 WC, I'm tipping Raffi Quirke of Sale to be not far off selection as long as De Klerk is not still there at Sale as the number 1 scrum half. I'm not sure if the Saffers will need to go back home for the year before the WC.
I like Quirke but Mitchell is ahead for me because of his raw pace, I like a 9 who can hold his own in a race with the wingers.
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Best game of the 6N so far.
Ben Youngs wasn’t shit.
Wonders never cease.
My thoughts exactly, should get him another 30 caps of kicking & chasing
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Poor again from England so far, Farrell brings nothing in attack, good defender and decent kicker but horribly predictable with the ball in hand and is now targeted by teams and regularly runs exactly where they want. Jones really needs to go so someone new can come in and change things up, he did well for 4 years but since the world cup we've been going backwards pretty rapidly.
Daly has been fucking awful again, he's not good enough under high balls to be a fullback against a team like Ireland who build their game around it.
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This is just the bi-annual England take a shoeing in Dublin in the St Patrick's day/weekend game. They're always fired up as hell, England always roll over.
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How many points do we need Ireland to get to have that clown sacked? Not corrected any of the discipline issues in 2/3 years & this continual kicking (very badly) game is beyond boring.
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How many points do we need Ireland to get to have that clown sacked? Not corrected any of the discipline issues in 2/3 years & this continual kicking (very badly) game is beyond boring.
6/2 split on the bench with no alternative FH is fucking amateur as well.
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Embarrassing defeat to end an abysmal 6N, all because Jones decided to stick with the team from the world cup despite half of them not playing any club rugby for 6 months and there being a huge number of players in the domestic game that are miles ahead of them. Simmonds, Smith, O'Connor, Odogwu, Randall and a few others should have a whip round and send him a retirement card because after ignoring them he doesn't deserve any more time with England.
If I never see Billy V, Youngs and Farrell wear an England shirt again I'd be ok with it, 3 senior players who should've been rallying the team and getting us going were all fucking shit and Farrell at 12 in particular is every bit as bad as Lancaster insisting on taking Burgess to the world cup, he's never been a good centre but he was defensively solid and good at kicking for the posts, this season his kicking has abandoned him and his tackling is a liability for the new laws, I'm amazed he's not seen red in this tournament.
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I enjoyed that, went much better than expected.
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Went exactly as I expected after seeing the sort of crap Eddie Jones was coming out with in the media this week.
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Went exactly as I expected after seeing the sort of crap Eddie Jones was coming out with in the media this week.
Yep, same here, as soon as I read the shit about him getting rid of the 'poison' about playing style from the players minds I knew we were going to play kick and chase and try to out muscle them up front and it just wouldn't work.
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Would be good if the last action of the Saracens scandal would be to get that idiot binned....picking any Sarries in this 6 nations was a joke & disrespectful to the likes of Simmonds or Dombramdt ripping it up week after week in Prem
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Would be good if the last action of the Saracens scandal would be to get that idiot binned....picking any Sarries in this 6 nations was a joke & disrespectful to the likes of Simmonds or Dombramdt ripping it up week after week in Prem
Simmonds and Dombrandt are the tip of a huge iceberg of players who should've been involved. Marcus Smith should've bene starting at 10 all tournament, George Furbank got thrown to the lions far too early.
Odogwu, Randall, Mitchell and Ribbans were all dragged away from club rugby and given nothing and will now go back and have to fight back to fitness and form, Lawrence and Malins got a handful of minutes each and have both been setup to be scapegoated by him.
Ludlam and Harrison can both feel frustrated that they've been cast aside having done nothing wrong and there's 5-6 Props and Wingers that he's given a look for a few months and then abandoned.
There are a handful of positions where I feel for him, at Hooker we don't have much depth and at Lock losing Launchbury and Lawes is a big blow but he doesn't help himself by repeatedly picking out of form players and moaning about no depth of experience.
As I've said before he's making almost all the same mistakes that Southgate is/has because he did better than expected at a tournament and instead of realising he got a bit lucky has decided to go all billy big bollocks and assume anyone criticising him doesn't have a clue what they're talking about and can't see his genius. The big difference is that he hasn't been forced to give the world class player(s) he's been ignoring a look in the way Southgate was with Grealish.
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Jones needs firing Monday morning, no excuse for that tournament performance.
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Moving on, France vs Wales has been a belter but Wales could easily be down to 11 men at this point.
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French win with a try deep in overtime, superb end to the game.
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France win makes things better.
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Unbelievable end to the game. What on earth France were doing opting for scrums with 5 and a half minutes to go needing 2 scores is anyones guess considering the laughable amount of time that is routinely wasted at scrums.
Got away with it in the end.
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Thank fuck for that, Wales have somehow managed to look half decent through this tournament playing 14 men week in week out not to mention the shambles of a referee when they played England.
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Wales have shown throughout the tournament how important keeping discipline is in these close games. Their discipline evaporated in the last 10 minutes and is ultimately why they lost.
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Unbelievable end to the game. What on earth France were doing opting for scrums with 5 and a half minutes to go needing 2 scores is anyones guess considering the laughable amount of time that is routinely wasted at scrums.
Got away with it in the end.
They were after another yellow and a penalty try.
The real takeaway from the game for me was how much better being able to hear the decision making process from refs. I've talked about it on the VAR thread before but when you see a match like that with so many tight decisions and come away thinking the officials did brilliantlyshows you how important it is to be able to understand why decisions have gone as they have.
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Brilliant from France.
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More than 2 and a half minutes came off the clock with those scrums. The potential rewards were far outweighed by the negative of the time lost I think. They got away with it in the end so fair enough I suppose.
Spot on about the referee and use of technology.
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More than 2 and a half minutes came off the clock with those scrums. The potential rewards were far outweighed by the negative of the time lost I think. They got away with it in the end so fair enough I suppose.
Spot on about the referee and use of technology.
I agree they wasted a lot of time but I understand what they were trying to do. Also when a team is 2 men down scrums in their 22 are always dangerous because they normally go 1 short in the pack and 1 in the backs, which means you have space out wide and round the fringes so it's a good bet that you can score if you manage to the scrum well. I've picked up at 8 and scored like that lots and lots of times, you just drive directly at the inside shoulder of the 10 and make it look like you're going to pass as soon as he commits.
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With the exception of Italy who have an insurmountable distance to make up to be competitive, all the other teams except England have used the Autumn Internationals and this 6 Nations to blood some new players. Eddie Jones had no intention of disturbing his 'old guard' that got him to a WC Final. We have 2 years to get a team together to be competitive at the 2023 WC. At the moment, I would not be overly confident about getting through the Pool that also includes Argentina and Japan. I was hugely impressed with Sam Warburton and Jamie Roberts' comments after the game. Warburton was very complimentary about the match officials and said that when a referee has to see 2 players from each side tussling for the ball plus another 2 players from each side then coming in, a referee's peripheral vision has to be good. He thought the match officials got it right with nearly ever decision. As the father of a referee officiating at a decent level, it was good to hear such a respected ex player understand what a referee has to process in such a short period of time. Roberts said that he felt sure that a lot of people watching thought they had watched the best 6 Nations they had ever seen. In both cases, admirable statements from men that must have been gutted that their country had seen a 10 point lead turned into a 2 point loss and not another Gram Slam.
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The real takeaway from the game for me was how much better being able to hear the decision making process from refs. I've talked about it on the VAR thread before but when you see a match like that with so many tight decisions and come away thinking the officials did brilliantlyshows you how important it is to be able to understand why decisions have gone as they have.
Wayne looked really scary, masked up in a dungeon :)
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Watching the highlights from the premiership yesterday and the Saints/Bears game today has just made how poor england were all the more obvious, so much good rugby being played and at such a good pace. This game alone has 5-6 English players who deserve a look in with national team.
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I find it weird that Jones keep citing the Lions as this key point in the development cycle. I understand the point that it means that a number of players won’t be available, although based on recent form who knows, and therefore that gives space for others. But you shouldn’t need Lions selection to do that. If Jones thinks the squad needs refreshing, and it does, then he should be proactively doing that. I’m not saying you have to write-off careers, although in some cases that is what it’ll be mean, but it’s a vital component of successful teams. You need fresh blood coming in and forcing the incumbent players to up their levels to retain their position. It’s far too comfortable at the moment.
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I find it weird that Jones keep citing the Lions as this key point in the development cycle. I understand the point that it means that a number of players won’t be available, although based on recent form who knows, and therefore that gives space for others. But you shouldn’t need Lions selection to do that. If Jones thinks the squad needs refreshing, and it does, then he should be proactively doing that. I’m not saying you have to write-off careers, although in some cases that is what it’ll be mean, but it’s a vital component of successful teams. You need fresh blood coming in and forcing the incumbent players to up their levels to retain their position. It’s far too comfortable at the moment.
Normally age would be the big driver of change but in truth there's no one in the squad who won't be available for the next world cup (Courtney Lawes at 34 will be the oldest) so it needs to be more manufactured than that, he needs to take a proper look at which players are actually performing for him and he's just not willing to do that yet, which makes the lions tour a nice excuse to delay it and wait for his hand to be forced.
The flaw in the plan is that I suspect he was banking on players like George, Youngs, Farrell and Billy V to be automatic inclusions but as things stand I don't see a place in the lions squad for any of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the lions squad has a smaller than expected English contingent because all the in form English players would have to leap frog England and go straight into the squad and I can't see that happening for more than a couple (Simmonds and Smith would go for me).
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At the moment the only 3 England players I can see with a realistic chance of starting the first Lions test would be Itoje, Curry and Watson.
Even Itoje for how brilliant he can be, may be deemed too much of a penalty risk.
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Curry is the only one for me right now.
Jones, Owens, Furlong
Beirne, Wyn Jones(C)
Curry, Faletau, Watson
Williams, Russell
Rees-Zammit, Davies, Ringrose, Adams
Hogg
On 6n form at least.
In the squad from England I'd have:
Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Simmonds, Smith, Watson and O'Connor (but the latter would be a real outside bet).
9 and the centres are the weak spots and England do have good players in both positions but Youngs isn't one of them and the mess of the English 8-12 axis means no English centre has looked good enough for a while now. I feel for Slade because he's a very good player but he needs to wash away the stench of being part of a non-functioning midfield before he gets back in my good books.
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I’d have May in there.
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I’d have May in there.
That depends on a couple of other spots for me.
At FB you go with Hogg, Keenan and Williams so does Williams also cover as a winger? If so do you only pick 5 wingers for the squad?
Then what about North? Gatland will take him but is it as a centre, a winger or both?
Top 4 wingers right now for me are Rees-Zamitt, Adams, Van De Merwe and Watson. If you see Williams and North as cover that might be all you take. If not Earls and May are the next 2 and I think you can go wither way with that choice.
A year ago May was the best in the world but he hasn't got to that same level often enough in this 6N and he's been struggling at club level as well, in part because Gloucester had such a poor start to the season.
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Scotland depleted because France broke the rules. Absolute farce, Scotland should have been awarded this game weeks ago.
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Jones, Owens, Furlong
Beirne, Wyn Jones(C)
Curry, Faletau, Watson
Williams, Russell
Rees-Zammit, Davies, Ringrose, Adams
Hogg
Forwards I just have Cowan-Dickie in at 2
9-15
Murray
Biggar
Rees-Zammit
Davis
North
Watson
Hogg
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On the wings for the Lions I think it's a clear 2 from 4 with Rees-Zammit, Adams, Watson and Van Der Merwe all of them have looked superb in this 6N.
Cowan-Dickie definitely goes and he'd be in my 23. I think Owens is just ahead but they'd be pretty interchangable, Turner would be my 3rd.
10 is all about how you want to play, I like a 10 who plays high and keeps defences tight which is why I'd go with Russell, Biggar offers more control though and is fantastic if they look like playing a kicking game. At 9 I really struggled because I don't think any of them had a particularly good 6N but Williams is a good defender and against de Klerk and/or Reinach you need that.
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Some game that. 🙂
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It was clearly accidental but that forearm from Russell was really dangerous.
Fair play to scotland, pushed them all the way and took advantage of a complete brain fart from Dulin who should've put the ball out and secured the win, they couldn't win the championship anyway.
Now it's all done my player of the tournament is Fickou, almost the perfect centre in this tournament, his organisation in defence and attack has been exceptional and I've found it frustrating that commentators have largely overlooked it until this game.
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An excellent tournament, proper "Any Given Saturday/Sunday" results (bar Italy), although the best team (France) didn't win. RWC2023 ticketing opened up the other day too, albeit with no games anywhere near me but I might push the boat out and see if I can get 3 for the France v. NZ opener as a birthday present and ake the kids along. If they can't get into rugby after the opening ceremony, haka, and what will likely be an excellent game, then there's no hope for them.
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An excellent tournament, proper "Any Given Saturday/Sunday" results (bar Italy), although the best team (France) didn't win. RWC2023 ticketing opened up the other day too, albeit with no games anywhere near me but I might push the boat out and see if I can get 3 for the France v. NZ opener as a birthday present and ake the kids along. If they can't get into rugby after the opening ceremony, haka, and what will likely be an excellent game, then there's no hope for them.
Just a warning, the website for RWC2023 is shambolic.
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Lions squad gets announced in a couple of hours.
So far Alun Wyn Jones has been confirmed as captain and there's strong rumours that 2 non-internationals have been included, both English. If that's true it feels very much like Gatland sticking 2 fingers up at Eddie Jones. I suspect it'll be Sam Simmonds as 1 of them and for the other I think it'll be a 9, probably Care for his experience but I wouldn't completely rule out Mitchell.
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I was a bit early on saying Alun Wyn Jones was confirmed earlier because it was only just officially announced but it's been a badly kept secret since last night.
announcements are all live on sky sports mix and it's pretty well done so far.
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England are shit, Scotland are quite good. Fully expect them to pick more England than Scotland players regardless.
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My quick opinions, in no particular order :
- if Bundee Aki is one of the top two/three centres in B&I rugby, then I don't know what to look for in centres (this is a distinct possibility).
- Daly is there purely because he can cover a few positions (and be shit in all of them). No Test minutes for him, please.
- pretty hard to argue with the forwards, nice to see Simmonds get some Test-level recognition.
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Simmonds in as expected, that's the right decision, in place of Billy V as well, which is fair.
Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.
Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.
I'm not sure about the 9 options, I'm amazed that Aki is in and I can't work out how Daly snuck in there.
Pack is all good, I can't see anyone I'd disagree with in there and I don't think anyone who has missed out can have many complaints.
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My quick opinions, in no particular order :
- if Bundee Aki is one of the top two/three centres in B&I rugby, then I don't know what to look for in centres (this is a distinct possibility).
- Daly is there purely because he can cover a few positions (and be shit in all of them). No Test minutes for him, please.
- pretty hard to argue with the forwards, nice to see Simmonds get some Test-level recognition.
Yep, you've had the same takeaway from it as me, centres are a fucking mess.
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England are shit, Scotland are quite good. Fully expect them to pick more England than Scotland players regardless.
8 scots, 8 irish, 10 welsh and 11 english.
Turner and george would've been a coin toss for me so he's the only Scot who can feel a little hard done by. A fit North takes Daly out so there's a couple of fringe selections for English players.
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I'm not sure about the 9 options, I'm amazed that Aki is in and I can't work out how Daly snuck in there.
I don't know much about 9s, but none of the regular B&I starters in the 6N strikes me as amazing (and they look actively bad when compared to Dupont, and the Italian 9 isn't awful either) - perhaps having already gone with Simmonds he felt he couldn't take too many non-regular internationals. I guess he'll chuck Murray to start as a safe pair of hands, but he's not the player he was.
I might be a bit unfair because I find the Irish backs in general pretty torturous to watch, but Aki is a (very) poor man's Tuilagi. Somebody must have heard Gatland was picking a Pacific Island centre, hence all the rumours about Manu in the press, because I don't think even Aki's own mum would have expected him in the squad. Same with Daly - he shouldn't even be in the England line-up, much less the Lions.
Even without the 6N win, it was always likely to be a pretty Welsh-heavy squad first XV from Gatland, but hope he makes room for the Tadhgs up front and Russell at FH in the starting XV.
Edit : just saw paul's stats re: nationalities - I'm surprised there are that many Englishmen, but I don't think many will make the starting XV. Only Itoje is nailed on, but I'd like Curry and Simmonds in there too. Farrell can carry some drinks or have some extra tackling practice.
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I don’t get Jonny Hill. Always looks bang average to me.
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I'm not sure about the 9 options, I'm amazed that Aki is in and I can't work out how Daly snuck in there.
I don't know much about 9s, but none of the regular B&I starters in the 6N strikes me as amazing (and they look actively bad when compared to Dupont, and the Italian 9 isn't awful either) - perhaps having already gone with Simmonds he felt he couldn't take too many non-regular internationals. I guess he'll chuck Murray to start as a safe pair of hands, but he's not the player he was.
I might be a bit unfair because I find the Irish backs in general pretty torturous to watch, but Aki is a (very) poor man's Tuilagi. Somebody must have heard Gatland was picking a Pacific Island centre, hence all the rumours about Manu in the press, because I don't think even Aki's own mum would have expected him in the squad. Same with Daly - he shouldn't even be in the England line-up, much less the Lions.
Even without the 6N win, it was always likely to be a pretty Welsh-heavy squad first XV from Gatland, but hope he makes room for the Tadhgs up front and Russell at FH in the starting XV.
Edit : just saw paul's stats re: nationalities - I'm surprised there are that many Englishmen, but I don't think many will make the starting XV. Only Itoje is nailed on, but I'd like Curry and Simmonds in there too. Farrell can carry some drinks or have some extra tackling practice.
For me there's 3 types of 9, a safe hands box-kicking type, a sniper who's good with ball in hand and a tempo player who speeds up play. I don't think we have that mix right now because I don't think any of them have the pace to do the sniper role, Robson, Mitchell or Randall would give us that but I can understand why he hasn't risked going with any of them.
Of the England players Cowan-Dickie is the best hooker in the squad, Curry should start, Simmonds would be my choice at 8 (we've only got 2 in the squad) and I'd have Watson and Mako on the bench, I think Lawes will be involved in the tests as well.
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I don’t get Jonny Hill. Always looks bang average to me.
He's a workhorse, he's not exceptional at anything but he's everywhere and doesn't make many mistakes, I think he was a bold choice but I can understand why they went with him.
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I don’t get Jonny Hill. Always looks bang average to me.
He's a workhorse, he's not exceptional at anything but he's everywhere and doesn't make many mistakes, I think he was a bold choice but I can understand why they went with him.
He's also someone who probably only made the squad because of injury, ie Launchbury.
As mentioned by others, the same goes for Daly because of North
Simmonds over Billy V will come as a shock only to those who've watched no rugby for the past couple of years...........or Eddie Jones
Aki is a bizarre one. He looks bang average and a red card in waiting
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Two members of the Lions squad now isolating
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57751748
The SA squad are already in isolation
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https://twitter.com/QuadeCooper/status/1414779860300357632
Turns out Quade Cooper, despite 70 appearances for the Aussies, is not actually Australian. Whilst I find it disgusting that they have rejected his application given that record of representation for the country, I'm equal parts astounded and appalled that he was ever allowed to play for them in the first place. If you don't hold the actual citizenship of the country you're representing, what's the point of international competition ? Might as well just be glorified club games.
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https://twitter.com/QuadeCooper/status/1414779860300357632
Turns out Quade Cooper, despite 70 appearances for the Aussies, is not actually Australian. Whilst I find it disgusting that they have rejected his application given that record of representation for the country, I'm equal parts astounded and appalled that he was ever allowed to play for them in the first place. If you don't hold the actual citizenship of the country you're representing, what's the point of international competition ? Might as well just be glorified club games.
His family moved to Australia when he was 13.
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https://twitter.com/QuadeCooper/status/1414779860300357632
Turns out Quade Cooper, despite 70 appearances for the Aussies, is not actually Australian. Whilst I find it disgusting that they have rejected his application given that record of representation for the country, I'm equal parts astounded and appalled that he was ever allowed to play for them in the first place. If you don't hold the actual citizenship of the country you're representing, what's the point of international competition ? Might as well just be glorified club games.
I totally disagree with your view.
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https://twitter.com/QuadeCooper/status/1414779860300357632
Turns out Quade Cooper, despite 70 appearances for the Aussies, is not actually Australian. Whilst I find it disgusting that they have rejected his application given that record of representation for the country, I'm equal parts astounded and appalled that he was ever allowed to play for them in the first place. If you don't hold the actual citizenship of the country you're representing, what's the point of international competition ? Might as well just be glorified club games.
His family moved to Australia when he was 13.
Right, but he’s still not actually a holder of Australian citizenship, he is someone who has a visa / leave / whatever to live and work in Oz. I assume he is not stateless, he has the citizenship of somewhere, so he should only play international rugby for them.
Just to be clear, in no way I am saying he shouldn’t have Aussie citizenship, or doesn’t deserve it, just that only Aussie citizens should play for Oz. In the same way I think / hope that all the SA players turning out for France all have French citizenship, and not just French residents. Admittedly this becomes more obtuse for Scotland and Wales which don’t dole out their own citizenship, and Ireland too.
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https://twitter.com/QuadeCooper/status/1414779860300357632
Turns out Quade Cooper, despite 70 appearances for the Aussies, is not actually Australian. Whilst I find it disgusting that they have rejected his application given that record of representation for the country, I'm equal parts astounded and appalled that he was ever allowed to play for them in the first place. If you don't hold the actual citizenship of the country you're representing, what's the point of international competition ? Might as well just be glorified club games.
His family moved to Australia when he was 13.
Right, but he’s still not actually a holder of Australian citizenship, he is someone who has a visa / leave / whatever to live and work in Oz. I assume he is not stateless, he has the citizenship of somewhere, so he should only play international rugby for them.
Just to be clear, in no way I am saying he shouldn’t have Aussie citizenship, or doesn’t deserve it, just that only Aussie citizens should play for Oz. In the same way I think / hope that all the SA players turning out for France all have French citizenship, and not just French residents. Admittedly this becomes more obtuse for Scotland and Wales which don’t dole out their own citizenship, and Ireland too.
That's literally never been how it works for any sport, residency has always been enough.
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Lions team to face South Africa: Hogg; A Watson, Daly, Henshaw, Van Der Merwe; Biggar, Price; W Jones, Cowan-Dickie, Furlong, Itoje, AW Jones (capt), Lawes, Curry, Conan.
Replacements: Owens, Sutherland, Sinckler, Beirne, H Watson, Murray, Farrell, L Williams.
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Mostly happy with that but I think Hogg is very lucky to be starting and Adams and Simmonds can feel hard done by to not be in the 23.
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I'd prefer Adams / Zammo on the wings and old bandy-legs* at Full-Back
Beirne is also unlucky not to be starting
(*still not sure how Liam Williams can even walk, let alone play international rugby)
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One mimght think Gatland is colluding with Eddie Jones to troll Simmonds.
"Yeah, mate, I know you don't pick him at all, but what I'll do is choose him for the squad to tour, but leave him out of the matchday 23. That'll really mess with him. Who does he think he is, being the record try-scorer in a season full-stop, and European Cup winner?".
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Elliot knock on Daly shouldn't even be in the squad let alone starting.
Hamish Watson is unlucky too.
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Elliot knock on Daly shouldn't even be in the squad let alone starting.
Hamish Watson is unlucky too.
Daly has suffered from Jones trying to turn him in to a winger/full back. At 13 he is a far better player. I'm still not convinced he should start for the Lions but given the competition (Aki and Harris) I think it's a fair call. If anything all it really does is show how poor the options are at centre in Europe.
Watson is a little unlucky but backrow is exact opposite of the centres and there's not one in the squad who wouldn't do a good job starting, there's also a fair few top class back rows that aren't in the squad (underhill for a start).
All that said I think my biggest problem with the squad is the half back cover on the bench. I ee no circumstance where Price nad Biggar aren't working and the solution is Murray and Farrell. Not much to be done about Murray but I'd have strongly considered Smith to cover 10, he's bang on form and he offers a bit of x factor that we lost with the injury to Russell.
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I'd have Harris (and Aki) over Daly every day but it's all about opinions I guess.
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I'd have Harris (and Aki) over Daly every day but it's all about opinions I guess.
I wouldn't have Aki out there to clean boots, he's nowhere near good enough. Harris and Daly are pretty close for me, Daly slightly better in attack and Harris is a better defender but fine margins either way. If Daly hadn't been shifted about by Jones (and Sarries) I think he wouldn't have so many detractors. Add to that him starting the 6N when he (along with most of the sarries players) was nowhere near the match fitness needed and his reputation has been badly hit by decisions outside his control.
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I'd have Harris (and Aki) over Daly every day but it's all about opinions I guess.
I’d pick myself over Aki and I was the slowest Centre the game has ever seen.
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Frankly, getting a bit mullered here.
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get in !!!
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Great turnaround in the second half, well done the Lions. Bit lucky a couple of times with decisions but works both ways. Great kick from Farrell near the end.
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Well, that turned out ok!
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Said it before, and I’ll say it again
‘Courtney Lawes is f**king ace’
There can be no argument against that statement!
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Great turnaround in the second half, well done the Lions. Bit lucky a couple of times with decisions but works both ways. Great kick from Farrell near the end.
I thought that the pack in the main fronted up to the Boks physical game. Lawes' outstanding 2nd half performance a major factor in the Lions victory. Itoje an incredible player. Thought the Lions replacements also did far more than the SA ones, especially the front row replacements. The Willy Le Roux non try was very debatable, but by the same token, the referee and TMO in the SA A game bottled it with Faf De Klerk's assault to the head - That could have well been a Red Card that would have meant him missing today's and maybe future tests - And that comes from a Sale supporter. If Biggar misses next week's game, that will presumably mean Farrell at fly half, so I hope that Smith gets onto the bench.
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A lot of South Africans moaning about Itoje playing the ball on the ground at the death, if only they knew the rules of the game before opening their big traps.
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Is it very naughty of me to say that I wish England had Warren Gatland?
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Said it before, and I’ll say it again
‘Courtney Lawes is f**king ace’
There can be no argument against that statement!
He was brilliant yesterday, absolutely justified his place, my only surprise is that he didn't get man of the match, Itoje was also very good though.
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Is it very naughty of me to say that I wish England had Warren Gatland?
I think he's very good, Jones is as good a coach as Gatland but is too far up his own arse to accept he's made the wrong call on a player whereas Gats is willing to admit he's made mistakes. Both are getting a bit too old though, when Jones does go Pat Lam has to be top of the list for his replacement.
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3 changes for the second test with Vunipola in for Sutherland, Harris in for Daly and Murray in for Price.
Biggars spot at 10 subject to a fitness test.
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Daly was anonymous as he has been for England for ages.
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Has there ever been so much whining after a defeat?
I don’t think it paints the Boks in a very good light.
I watched the game and I think the ref got most right but made some tight caps both for and against.
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lions 9-6 ahead at half time. Been very niggly, 1 yellow each way with Van De Merwe getting a yellow for a blatant trip and then Kolbe following him a couple of minutes later for tackling a man in the air (and he was very lucky it wasn't increased to a red, definitely an 'orange' incident).
Boks are giving away shitloads of penalties and the lions had a try disallowed, I think Faf was lucky not to be pinged for a high shot on Murray as well.
Final one, after the Kolbe tackle there was a bit of handbags but as part of it their hooker made sure he left one on Biggar (who also made a meal of it), bit cowardly from him and I'm surprised there wasn't more made of it.
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Really poor 2nd half from the lions. Lost the physical battle and the subs had no impact.
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I thought that the ref got both binnings correct. Kolbe never took his eyes off the ball. If he’d jumped at all, he wouldn’t have been binned.
Back when I was playing, VdM would have had a red card, but trips are a yellow these days.
Very impressed with the SA pack today. They could afford to take off a specialist back row because the Lions were offering very little threat running with the ball.
The attacking move for the final test would be to start Smith at outside half, with Farrell on the bench………never happen though.
Murray was very slow getting into position at times, so I’d start Price. However, neither are that impressive.
Daly might make my local 3rd XV next season.
I’d like to see Zammo start as well.
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The ref didn’t help but the lions were second best in pretty much every position in the second half. Weird how both tests are almost carbon copies of each other but with the opposite outcome (ie second half revivals and getting the rub of the green from the ref).
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What chance do we have Saturday?
We know what the Boks will do but can we counter it. We have to start kicking and catching better to have any chance.
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What chance do we have Saturday?
We know what the Boks will do but can we counter it. We have to start kicking and catching better to have any chance.
We have to start kicking less and get the backs into the game, other than Van de Merwe running a crash line a couple of times and Hogg running back a few SA kicks I honestly don't remember seeing the ball moved outside Henshaw more than a couple of times in the entire game.
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If anyone guessed this matchday 23, I want to know your lottery numbers
Lions starting XV
Liam Williams; Josh Adams, Robbie Henshaw, Bundee Aki, Duhan van der Merwe; Dan Biggar, Ali Price; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Tadhg Furlong, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Jack Conan.
Replacements: Mako Vunipola, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Kyle Sinckler, Adam Beard, Sam Simmonds, Conor Murray, Finn Russell, Elliot Daly.
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a couple of big hitters out for the Saffers, Faf de Klerk and Pieter-Steph du Toit both injured
should be very interesting for Saturday
UTV
The Doc
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That's better but what the fuck is Aki doing in that starting line-up, at least the Bench has some impact on it.
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Like that team though equally surprised Aki in though centres is squad weakness.
Pleased to see Simmonds on bench….glad no Farrell booting literally every ball away….
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Poor game management.
Some piss poor officiating in the last 15.
Poor selections.
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Should never have been given as a try, but the Lions have only themselves to blame. To pass up 4 or 5 relatively simple kicks at goal only to butcher each opportunity is awful
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Some poor decision making and fine margins on critical decisions went South Africa’s way.
Our box kicking was awful and yet we kept kicking it away.
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South Africans had a similar view on their performance up to half time
Pointless kicking, giving away possession to the lions.
Lions should have wrapped it up in the 1st half with all their possession. Boks got out of jail 3 times in first half by holding up and turning over Lions attack.
Great Bok Try and Morne scoring points 12 years on settled it.
On a personal note, pretty pissed off,I went to 3 games on the 96 tour, 2 games on the 2009 tour and via a lottery had tickets for Cape Town and FNB Stadium for this tour.
Not sure if I will be in the lottery for next tour
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Looks like Australia are back.
Beat South Africa again
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Autumn squad
Looks quite exiting.
No Billy or Mako, and no place for George Ford.
Big surprise that Jamie George isn’t there, though
Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Ted Hill (Worcester), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Jack Kenningham (Harlequins), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Lewis Ludlow (Gloucester), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Beno Obano (Bath), Gabriel Oghre (Wasps), Sam Riley (Harlequins), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath).
Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Furbank (Northampton), Ollie Lawrence (Worcester), Louis Lynagh (Harlequins), Max Malins (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester).
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Yeah, I'm pretty happy with that, a couple of players I'd have had ahead of people he's picked but nothing outrageous.
O'Conor and Mitchell are the only players I think really deserved a spot and didn't get picked.
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Sad not to see Dan Kelly of Leicester Tigers included in the squad. He came through our Junior Academy system at Rochdale RUFC and seemed to have pleased Eddie Jones with his performances in the summer internationals. May be that he was given caps so as to stop him opting for Ireland for whom he played in the 2020 U20 Six Nations.
However, delighted to see Raffi Quirke of Sale in the squad. Think he'll be 1st choice for England by 2023 Six Nations and going into the World Cup. Interesting that he was only replacement scrum half in the recent U20 Six Nations and Jack van Poortvliet, who was 1st choice, has not been included in the squad.
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What a game between NZ and SA today.
A great way to end the Southern Hemisphere championship
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So…… USA v New Zealand…….not sure that’s going to help develop the game ;D
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Autumn squad
Looks quite exiting.
No Billy or Mako, and no place for George Ford.
Big surprise that Jamie George isn’t there, though
Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Ted Hill (Worcester), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Jack Kenningham (Harlequins), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Lewis Ludlow (Gloucester), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Beno Obano (Bath), Gabriel Oghre (Wasps), Sam Riley (Harlequins), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath).
Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Furbank (Northampton), Ollie Lawrence (Worcester), Louis Lynagh (Harlequins), Max Malins (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Dan Robson (Wasps), Henry Slade (Exeter), Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester).
Jamie George is back in again.
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So…… USA v New Zealand…….not sure that’s going to help develop the game ;D
What a pointless game. All Blacks v USA second team.
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I've a spare ticket for the England v Tonga game at Twickenham on 6 November if anyone wants it at 1/2 the face value.
PM me if you'd like it.
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NZ very impressive today, albeit the Wales team wasn’t at full strength.
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What the fuck are we doing with Farrell? He's tested positive for Covid but they haven't replaced him and are talking about him possibly still starting the game. It's fucking Tonga so I'm not sure what we gain by starting him anyway and the message it sends out if he's inthe squad is fucking awful, fucking shambles.
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They’re banking on further tests being negative.
If I was Tonga, I’d refuse to play if Farrell is in the stadium
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Clinical by England.
Highlight, that tackle by Courtney Lawes.
Ben Youngs certainly set a high bar for the young guns challenging for number 9
Impressed with the young lad at full back, Stewart? too
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Well done Scotland, three successive wins against the Convicts.
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Had a busy day on Saturday and then there was only 1 story on here yesterday so only just catching up.
Furbank looked good at 10, he's not a starter but him on the bench alongside Mitchell and someone like Marchant would give us a huge amount of flexibility.
Smith came on and looked every bit the superstar he is, he's got to get some starts soon, no idea why Jones is reluctant.
That Lawes tackle was special, I doubt there's many locks ever in history that would make that hit.
All that said it was so one-sided that it's hard to know where we are, we won by more than 60 and before the game started a lot of people predicted us to win by about 60 points so... ?
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I took my 2 kids on Saturday & had the misfortune of sitting in front of the unfunniest person I've ever had the misfortune to come across, an objectionable, crushing bore who should stick to watching League 2 football. Really spoilt the day.
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Eddie Jones is an absolute dickhead.
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Eddie Jones is an absolute dickhead.
Even worse than a whiney arsed Australian.
Speaking of whiney arsed Australians, they were pretty poor against the Jocks, I hope we can be as ruthless and well disciplined this Saturday because if we are they’ll get smashed.
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Eddie Jones is an absolute dickhead.
What he said/done?
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Pathetically trying to pick a fight with Raducanu for seemingly no reason whatsoever. I think he's always come across as a bit of an arse when I've heard him speak so this is very much in character.
Marcus Smith: Eddie Jones warns of 'distractions' and claims Emma Raducanu 'hasn't done so well' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59206538
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Pathetically trying to pick a fight with Raducanu for seemingly no reason whatsoever. I think he's always come across as a bit of an arse when I've heard him speak so this is very much in character.
Marcus Smith: Eddie Jones warns of 'distractions' and claims Emma Raducanu 'hasn't done so well' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59206538
Yep, he's talking out of his arse on this, and has about a number of other things. He's a good coach and fixed a lot of Englands problems when he arrived but now he's creating the problems, personally I'd have replaced him after the 6Ns this year.
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That could happen anyway if he doesn't win one of the next two games.
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Pathetically trying to pick a fight with Raducanu for seemingly no reason whatsoever. I think he's always come across as a bit of an arse when I've heard him speak so this is very much in character.
Marcus Smith: Eddie Jones warns of 'distractions' and claims Emma Raducanu 'hasn't done so well' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59206538
Yep, he's talking out of his arse on this, and has about a number of other things. He's a good coach and fixed a lot of Englands problems when he arrived but now he's creating the problems, personally I'd have replaced him after the 6Ns this year.
100% he should have been binned after 6N
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Manu on the fucking wing, what the fuck is wrong with him?
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Perhaps he hasn't got the courage to drop his high-profile key players. At least he's started Smith.
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Perhaps he hasn't got the courage to drop his high-profile key players. At least he's started Smith.
That's exactly what it is, he hasn't got the balls to pick 2 from 3 of Farrell, Manu and Slade so he's fucked the balance of the team to try to fit all 3 in. He was forced into it because Smith forced himself into the starting lineup last week.
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Seriously no 8s in the starting 15 but 2 on the bench, Tuilangi at 11, no Radwan, let's see how Smith deals with playing off the slowest scrum half in world rugby.
The only logic in sticking Manu at 11 is the Australians wont want him running at them at full tilt, but contestable balls into his wing, bloody hell it's going to be an aerial barrage.
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It might mark me as a very simple rugby thinker (which I am), but I like wingers to go like shit off a shovel and Manu just isn't that. He is *reasonably* fast, but it's more for being a battering ram that he is there, and I can't see the point of a battering ram on the edge of the action rather than going through the middle.
Like England manager in all sports, as paul_e says, he hasn't got the balls to drop his established stars (outside of the initial 12 month period where everyone is delighted with the "new broom" not afraid to axe the old guard).
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Great win by Ireland over NZ
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Great win by Ireland over NZ
A great game, really enoyed it.
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Great win by Ireland over NZ
A great game, really enoyed it.
Same here, watched the second half and enjoyed it.
After waiting so long to beat the All-Blacks it's becoming a nice habit, hopefully I'll be saying the same about Villa and Man U in a few years.
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Great game of rugby i'd have been happy even if the BoIG had lost - much better match than the one at Twickenham at the moment!
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Sad to see the the BBC HYS has been closed on account of the usual post Brexit xenophobic/sectarian BS that seems to be seeping out again ::)
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Sad to see the the BBC HYS has been closed on account of the usual post Brexit xenophobic/sectarian BS that seems to be seeping out again ::)
Have Your Say?
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Went out up digbeth to watch the Ireland and England games and I'm just about recovering now.
Ireland were superb, well deserved win and a belter of a game.
England were, as is customary now, frustrating. It was a good win, that's undeniable, but we left 15-20 points out on the pitch through silly mistakes. Manu struggled as much as I expected, Youngs was as slow as ever. There were a few bits of brilliance though, the step from Steward for his try and the steal and counter from Simmonds for Blamire's try were the 2 stand-outs for me.
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Jamie George (knee) and Owen Farrell (ankle) out of SA game
Will provide an interesting selection.
I’ll guess Manu back to 12 and Blamire starting at 2
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What happened to the Leicester lad?
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Jamie George (knee) and Owen Farrell (ankle) out of SA game
Will provide an interesting selection.
I’ll guess Manu back to 12 and Blamire starting at 2
I might be wrong but I suspect he'll be nervous starting Blamire and might keep him on the bench. Singleton is better suited to playing against SA.
Manu at 12 and Radwan on the wing seems pretty likely.
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England: Steward; Marchant, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Smith, Youngs; Rodd, Blamire, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes (capt), Underhill, Curry.
Replacements: Dolly, Marler, Stuart, Ewels, Simmonds, Dombrandt, Quirke, Malins.
so6-2 bench with a 9 and 10 on there and a centre on the wing again. Just because he's seemingly scared to pick between simmonds and dombrandt. Front row is a bit of a mess but that's not really his fault, pleasantly surprised he didn't wimp out of picking Blamire though.
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Still no number 8 at number 8 then Eddie?
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I’d love to see a starting back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds with Lawes back to second row with Itoje.
That said, does Lawes play back row for Northampton these days?
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I’d love to see a starting back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds with Lawes back to second row with Itoje.
That said, does Lawes play back row for Northampton these days?
He does both, has been mostly backrow this season so far because of injuries elsewhere. Oddly 2nd row is the one area where everyone has been fit all season.
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Apart from Launchbury.
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That was special today, a big marker thrown down by England. I was worried about our front row, they were excellent and I hope we never see Farrell again.
New Zealand beaten twice this autumn and Australia are still shite.
All is well.
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Apart from Launchbury.
I meant at Northampton.
England were very good at times yesterday and Smith is a far better fit than Farrell now.
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And Raffi Quirke did nothing to disprove my opinion that he'll be England's starting scrum half in the 2023 World Cup
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Okay, Paul -my confusion.
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And Raffi Quirke did nothing to disprove my opinion that he'll be England's starting scrum half in the 2023 World Cup
There's a lot of good young 9s around, which is why the persistent inclusion of Ben fucking Youngs pisses me off so much. I'd honestly struggle to fit him into my top 5 right now.
Quirke and Mitchell would be my 2 in the 23 (and I'd change who started depending on the game plan), if the idea is to get the ball wide and make ground int he backs then I'd go with Mitchell who is fantastic at raising the tempo of games but if it's more of an arm-wrestle Quirke comes in for the extra defensive quality and his ability to put people through 'around the corner.' Why I like them both though is that they run fantastic support lines and have both scored tries in this series on the back of it. They're also easily the quickest 9s we have available and could both hold their own against most wingers.
The other big break-through was that we eventually got to see a proper run out for Marchant, who looked superb. Hopefully it was enough to make Jones realise he's easily the best centre in the country.
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Marchant is just one of those centres you want to watch. Superb rugby intelligence and real dynamism.
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Looks like Manu and Faz are under pressure!
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And Raffi Quirke did nothing to disprove my opinion that he'll be England's starting scrum half in the 2023 World Cup
There's a lot of good young 9s around, which is why the persistent inclusion of Ben fucking Youngs pisses me off so much. I'd honestly struggle to fit him into my top 5 right now.
Quirke and Mitchell would be my 2 in the 23 (and I'd change who started depending on the game plan), if the idea is to get the ball wide and make ground int he backs then I'd go with Mitchell who is fantastic at raising the tempo of games but if it's more of an arm-wrestle Quirke comes in for the extra defensive quality and his ability to put people through 'around the corner.' Why I like them both though is that they run fantastic support lines and have both scored tries in this series on the back of it. They're also easily the quickest 9s we have available and could both hold their own against most wingers.
The other big break-through was that we eventually got to see a proper run out for Marchant, who looked superb. Hopefully it was enough to make Jones realise he's easily the best centre in the country.
I think the Ben Youngs selection is about not wanting to play a rookie 9 and 10, which makes perfect sense (well to me it does 😁)
Now Smith has proved he can step up I think you’ll find the other 9’s will get more starts
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And Raffi Quirke did nothing to disprove my opinion that he'll be England's starting scrum half in the 2023 World Cup
There's a lot of good young 9s around, which is why the persistent inclusion of Ben fucking Youngs pisses me off so much. I'd honestly struggle to fit him into my top 5 right now.
Quirke and Mitchell would be my 2 in the 23 (and I'd change who started depending on the game plan), if the idea is to get the ball wide and make ground int he backs then I'd go with Mitchell who is fantastic at raising the tempo of games but if it's more of an arm-wrestle Quirke comes in for the extra defensive quality and his ability to put people through 'around the corner.' Why I like them both though is that they run fantastic support lines and have both scored tries in this series on the back of it. They're also easily the quickest 9s we have available and could both hold their own against most wingers.
The other big break-through was that we eventually got to see a proper run out for Marchant, who looked superb. Hopefully it was enough to make Jones realise he's easily the best centre in the country.
I think the Ben Youngs selection is about not wanting to play a rookie 9 and 10, which makes perfect sense (well to me it does 😁)
Now Smith has proved he can step up I think you’ll find the other 9’s will get more starts
I'd agree if we hadn't had 6 years of Youngs and Fprd/Farrell with almost no attempt to give experience to anyone else.
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England 6 Nations squad
Farrell still captain (insert head-slapping emoji thingy)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60036981
Forwards
Alfie Barbeary, Jamie Blamire, Ollie Chessum, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Tom Curry, Alex Dombrandt, Charlie Ewels, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Joe Heyes, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Lewis Ludlam, Joe Marler, Bevan Rodd, Sam Simmonds, Kyle Sinckler, Will Stuart
Backs
Mark Atkinson, Orlando Bailey, Owen Farrell, Tommy Freeman, George Furbank, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Max Malins, Joe Marchant, Jonny May, Luke Northmore, Jack Nowell, Raffi Quirke, Harry Randall, Henry Slade, Marcus Smith, Freddie Steward, Ben Youngs.
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Welsh squad
The Forest's own Alex Cuthbert still hanging in there
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60024912
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Ben Youngs clearly can do no wrong.
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Great to see Alfie Barbeary in after some outstanding performances for Wasps but totally agree about Ben Youngs!
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Aside from Youngs hanging on like a shit that won't flush and Farrell being captain when he should be struggling to make the 23 I think it's the best England squad for a few years, some really exciting picks in there.
A pack of Sinckler, Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Itoje, Lawes, Barbeary, Curry and Dombrandt with Blamire, Genge and Simmonds all to come off the bench against tiring defences, that's a terrifying pack if we use it well.
And there's some quality in the backs as well, i think freeman might be the wildcard in there.
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Only just noticed, no Manu Tuilagi? Is he injured again or fallen out of favour?
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Doesn't seem to have played since late October for Sale. And managed all of about 10 minutes in the November internationals so guess he hasn't recovered from that.
Whilst looking up this info on Sale's website, hilariously he is sponsored by Redmoor Health "helping empower people manage their health". I'm not sure if that is the greatest or most atrocious personal sponsor ever.
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Yep, he's not fit, from what I can make out there's a fair chance he won't play again this season, it's getting to the point where I expect he'll retire before long, his body is just broken.
Underhill is the bigger surprise as he's probably fitter than Farrell and George who have both been included.
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Farrell out of the first match
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Yep, he's not fit, from what I can make out there's a fair chance he won't play again this season, it's getting to the point where I expect he'll retire before long, his body is just broken.
Underhill is the bigger surprise as he's probably fitter than Farrell and George who have both been included.
The word on the street up here is that Manu is close to making a return in the next few weeks. Be very interesting if he gets straight back in as Johanse van Rensburg has come into his own at centre recently in the Sale team.
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Yep, he's not fit, from what I can make out there's a fair chance he won't play again this season, it's getting to the point where I expect he'll retire before long, his body is just broken.
Underhill is the bigger surprise as he's probably fitter than Farrell and George who have both been included.
The word on the street up here is that Manu is close to making a return in the next few weeks. Be very interesting if he gets straight back in as Johanse van Rensburg has come into his own at centre recently in the Sale team.
I've seen the same but then it' the 2nd time he's been on the verge of a comeback from this specific problem and throughout his career he's had injuries that have taken much longer than expected to heal. Fingers crossed it's different this time and he can find the fitness to get a run of games but I just don't think you can rely on that as England so cutting the losses and going a different way is probably for the best.
Farrell out of the first match
Was always likely and it's great news really as it opens up the options in the centres. Farrell and Slade at 12 and 13 just doesn't work for me so hopefully Marchant will get a chance to make the 12 shirt his. Will also be really interesting to see where Malins and Furbank fit in. The former has played all along the backline but isn't in the best of form at club level whereas the latter is in superb form but had a tough time for England before, I suspect 1 or other on the bench as cover for 10, 12 and 15 though then with a 'flyer' like Hassell-Collins or Freeman joining them. Keeping that blanace will be harder once Farrell is back and gets shoe-horned into the 23.
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So what's yer picks for the 6N?
Spoon - Italy as always they won't win a game ever again.
Champions is a tough call, England had a superb Autumn as did Ireland, Wales will be there or thereabouts again and you can't rule France out but they always seem to bottle it.
This weekend I'm going Ireland by 9, France by 18 and England by 7.
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Just looked up the weather forecast for Edinburgh, gusty winds and heavy rain - so I fancy a settled Scotland side to beat a reshuffled England. Hope the weather is better at StoneX stadium, as I’m watching on the “big” screens straight after the Saracens v Bath game.
France for the Grand Slam, as they have both Ireland and England at home.
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Frnce are rightly favourites, strong squad and have home ties against the 2 other challengers.
England are a better squad and team now than they were last year and are coming off a decent autumn. I'm holding back on judgement until i see the 15 he picks but I'd expect us to be the other major contender.
Ireland have some quality but if England and France are at their best at home to them I can't see them doing better than 3rd.
After that Italy are clearly the weakest team and will probably get whitewashed yet again but I can't pick between Scotland and Wales.
Ths weekend I'm going for:
Ireland by at least 15
England by less than 7
France by at least 15
For England; away at Scotland is, in my opinion, the worst way to start the tournament but with the squad we have I think we should be strong enough to win a game that will be tighter than it should be.
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Lawes and Hill both out of the first game.
I expect Curry to be captain now
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Lawes is a massive loss, he's been at the heart of what the team does well for a few years now.
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Talking about fitness, gotta say the new patron of England rugby looks pretty fit!
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Lawes is a massive loss, he's been at the heart of what the team does well for a few years now.
Think that will be a massive boost for Scotland.
I actually fancy Scotland to win, now 😞
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England team: Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Marchant; Smith, Youngs; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Isiekwe, Ludlam, Curry (capt), Simmonds.
Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Ewels, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Nowell
Daly & Youngs ::)
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England team: Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Marchant; Smith, Youngs; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Isiekwe, Ludlam, Curry (capt), Simmonds.
Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Ewels, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Nowell
Daly & Youngs ::)
Youngs had to start. England will need a calming influence, which Youngs provides.
Daly is a surprise for me, though.
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Disagree on Youngs, he's nowhere near the same level as Randall or Quirke, he's not even the best scrum-half at his club anymore.
Daly shows that, yet again, Jones has gone for the 'safe hands' approach to the backs.
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I kind of get it with the injuries and given it’s a game at Murrayfield.
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England team: Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Marchant; Smith, Youngs; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Isiekwe, Ludlam, Curry (capt), Simmonds.
Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Ewels, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Nowell
Daly & Youngs ::)
Youngs had to start. England will need a calming influence, which Youngs provides.
Daly is a surprise for me, though.
Daly was head and shoulders MoM against London Irish two weeks ago. Best I’ve seen him play since he moved to Saracens, including a great try that he started and finished. Eddie Jones was there watching, Daly got called into the squad next day. So he is back on form at least.
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The problem for me is that it feels like a team selected to play for territory. Youngs is the best box kicker of the 9s in the squad, Slade has a strong kicking game, Daly has a strong kicking game, Malins is a 10 playing on the wing, add them all to Smith and that's 5 of the 7 backs are known for their kicking game and it's a core strength in their play and that's ignoring that Steward is as good with his boot as he is carrying the ball. The only out and out 'runner' in the backline is Marchant and he's been shunted to the wing instead of the centres where he should be.
I might be proven wrong but it looks like a team that is designed to kick for the corners and win it with rolling mauls and scrums inside their 22.
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I might be proven wrong but it looks like a team that is designed to kick for the corners and win it with rolling mauls and scrums inside their 22.
It'll be like watching Lydney v Berry Hill in the 1980s :)
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Dear me that's a soft try for Ireland, massive leadership gap in this Welsh team.
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Dear me that's a soft try for Ireland, massive leadership gap in this Welsh team.
Will be interesting to see Wales response, they’re getting stuffed so far
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Better now from Wales without them threatening to get on the board. Still think the defensive organisation is lacking but at least they've had some ball.
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Wales improved but if the Irish centres passed morecthis could be a 25-30 point lead. Conway in particular has had acres of space and instead of getting the ball to him Ringrose has carried into the space instead, has happened 4-5 times so far and, if I were Conway, I'd be fucking livid with him.
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Round of applause for Conway, that's a spectacular finish.
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Red for Adams?
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Lucky boy
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Yellow was the right call for me but it was fucking stupid.
This is the battering it threatened to be in the first half now. Welsh defence is a mess.
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I might be proven wrong but it looks like a team that is designed to kick for the corners and win it with rolling mauls and scrums inside their 22.
It'll be like watching Lydney v Berry Hill in the 1980s :)
I think the prediction is looking safe so far.
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I might be proven wrong but it looks like a team that is designed to kick for the corners and win it with rolling mauls and scrums inside their 22.
It'll be like watching Lydney v Berry Hill in the 1980s :)
I actually preferred watching rugby when it was like that. I enjoyed a 6-3 score. In those days the skilful and gifted players would stand out as truly special. Rugby these days is more like American football, typified by the ridiculous spectacle of players being hoisted into the air at line-ins, or whatever they are called now.
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Come on England
Good try
We’ll played Youngs, and especially, Marcus Smith
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You effin twat LCD!!
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You effin twat LCD!!
Stupid decision, likely to cost us the game when we were so comfortable.
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Frustrating thing is that he was the best player on the pitch until then.
Youngs has cost us massively though, absolutely no pace to our play with him constantly slowing it down to kick, means they've always had time to spread the defence. Kicking so much is particularly stupid when Hogg and VDM are so good at running it back.
Fucking pathetic game plan from Jones.
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Fucking shit performance, almost every time we got to 3rd phase we kicked the fucking thing away, gameplan was utter bollocks, selection in the backs was shite and made it fucking obvious what we were going to do.
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Brilliant, well done Scotland! Been a great start to this year's 6N. :)
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Pleased Wales got humped. They've always struck me as being not-that-good, but somehow managing to win. About time they were actually crap (compared to the others that aren't Italy). Ireland looked plenty strong - next week's match against France should go a long way to deciding the tournament winner.
Scotland - I don't actually mind losing to Scotland in rugby (same as I don't mind losing to Wales in football, but the opposites are unthinkable). Love the blue-and-purple colour scheme, Murrayfield, acapella Flower of Scotland. Plus they've been awful for years so it's only fair they get their turn in the sun. England were boring, and predictably so, as Paul pointed out above.
Perhaps someone more qualified can explain - why was LCD's vollyball slap illegal ? It wasn't a pass, so why can't he just slap the ball into touch ?
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Perhaps someone more qualified can explain - why was LCD's vollyball slap illegal ? It wasn't a pass, so why can't he just slap the ball into touch ?
Deliberate knock on. Penalty in normal circumstances. Yellow card and penalty try if a try would likely have been scored.
Also…..a player must not ” Intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the playing area.”
LCD managed to do both things. Therefore, this was a clear yellow and penalty try
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Was it just me head butting the table when the coach replaced Smith with Ford to reunite his chuckle brothers tribute act of Young & Ford at half back? Kick it away….kick it away….kick it away…any chance of keeping the ball a bit? Sooner Jones is sacked the better hence being quite happy that Scotland won
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Perhaps someone more qualified can explain - why was LCD's vollyball slap illegal ? It wasn't a pass, so why can't he just slap the ball into touch ?
Deliberate knock on. Penalty in normal circumstances. Yellow card and penalty try if a try would likely have been scored.
Also…..a player must not ” Intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the playing area.”
LCD managed to do both things. Therefore, this was a clear yellow and penalty try
Thanks. Didn't realise deliberate knock-on applied to all actions, thought it was only for intercepting passes, and didn't know about the second stipulation at all.
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Why is Eddie Jones still England's Head Coach? We seem to be going backwards.
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Perhaps someone more qualified can explain - why was LCD's vollyball slap illegal ? It wasn't a pass, so why can't he just slap the ball into touch ?
Deliberate knock on. Penalty in normal circumstances. Yellow card and penalty try if a try would likely have been scored.
Also…..a player must not ” Intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the playing area.”
LCD managed to do both things. Therefore, this was a clear yellow and penalty try
Thanks. Didn't realise deliberate knock-on applied to all actions, thought it was only for intercepting passes, and didn't know about the second stipulation at all.
I think if he'd made a show of trying to catch it he'd have been fine but the push motion is hard to defend.
That said I think it was a clearer yellow than it was a penalty try, there's loads of other ways it could've gone which didn't lead to a try. If he'd tried to complete the catch I reckon it'd have been a penalty the other way because Graham pretty clearly caught him in the face after he'd pushed the ball out.
That said I'm far from happy with the whole sequence of play which saw us with a hooker defending 1on1 against a winger with about 20-30m of space.
I can sort of understand the logic behind bringing Ford on but it felt like a predetermined sub that ignored what was happening on the field.
Giving Youngs the full 80 is about as poor a decision as Jones has ever made though. He should've been hooked when Price caught him dithering in the corner at the very latest. In football you can often pinpoint specific decisions that are the beginning of the end, like Smith going to a back 5, I think sticking with Youngs is the slow seath of Jones.
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Had an option to level it with a long penalty, but decided to go for the corner.
I felt the ref was kind to Scotland with the scrums right at the end, too. Should we have had a penalty for deliberately wheeling?
On Youngs, I don’t mind him, and thought he needed to start yesterday, more as a calming influence in a hostile atmosphere. But, when you look at the other 3 starting ‘9’s yesterday there is a big gap in pace, and I think we should now look to move on with a couple of young guns, especially as Marcus Smith has settled in.
I like Cowan Dickie, so I’ll cut him some slack for his moment, but, as Paul says ‘why was he on the wing?’
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Infuriating at times, especially Daly, we had a 4 on 2 and he kicked it away.
Smith was brilliant, the new Wilkinson for sure, but why take him off and bring Dombrandt on, surely we want those two together.
Stupid penalties did for us yet again.
A yellow card for LCD but a penalty try on top? Anything could have happened but the referee & TMO completely over egged it for me.
That said, I have a question regarding the Scots first try, should it have been allowed? They used the wrong ball at the quick line out, not sure that's permitted is it?
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Nope, didn't notice but if it's not the same ball you can't go quick.
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Youngs finally dropped.
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Youngs finally dropped.
Against Italy, so it doesn't really count
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It's a start.
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Backline is better, would've liked to have Quirke on the bench instead of Youngs though and I'd have hoped to see Hassell-Collins get some time in this one.
He's rotated the forwards a bit as well but I'm ok with it, still a very strong pack.
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Must thank the 6N organisers for arranging 3 out of 4 Italy matches on their own on Sundays (week 5 obvs all matches on the same day). Means I can load up on Saturday rugby and leave Sunday free for other stuff. Although, given their U20 forwards were apparently very impressive in beating England U20 last night, perhaps ignoring the Azzuri won't be advisable in the coming years. Anyway, predictions...
Scotland by 5
France by 10
England by whatever.
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Wales run out to that traditional Welsh anthem 'Enter Sandman'. Taking a leaf out of Virginia Tech's book and who can blame them?.
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Wales run out to that traditional Welsh anthem 'Enter Sandman'. Taking a leaf out of Virginia Tech's book and who can blame them?.
Anybody with an ounce of musical taste?! ;)
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France vs Ireland was a fantastic match, as good a 6n game ad I can ever remember.
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Italy have certainly improved over the last couple of years.
Good half by England
Good debut by Randell
What a pass by Genge to Jamie George
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Has been a decent first half, backs line up is working better, shame that Nowell had to go off.
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Better in a lot of ways but too many handling errors and still gave away a lot of soft penalties.
Youngs summed up perfectly why I don't like him within minutes of coming on, England catch and drive 10-15m up to halfway the ball comes out and Youngs kicks it to nowhere for absolutely no reason. We really need to fuck him off now, Randall was much better and I'd argue he isn't even then right choice to be starting.
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Better in a lot of ways but too many handling errors and still gave away a lot of soft penalties.
Youngs summed up perfectly why I don't like him within minutes of coming on, England catch and drive 10-15m up to halfway the ball comes out and Youngs kicks it to nowhere for absolutely no reason. We really need to fuck him off now, Randall was much better and I'd argue he isn't even then right choice to be starting.
Had a bit of a giggle at that, as I pictured you typing exactly that 😂
Seriously, though, I don’t mind Youngs in certain games and situations, but I was screaming at him.
We were in a great field position, too.
So, I think Jones has to start with Randell. I have a feeling, though the Youngs will start vrs Wales
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Wales run out to that traditional Welsh anthem 'Enter Sandman'. Taking a leaf out of Virginia Tech's book and who can blame them?.
The only athlete allowed to run on to Enter Sandman should be Mariano Rivera
https://youtu.be/rUTirIk75vg
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Youngs first touch was a knock on. Says it all really.
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Better in a lot of ways but too many handling errors and still gave away a lot of soft penalties.
Youngs summed up perfectly why I don't like him within minutes of coming on, England catch and drive 10-15m up to halfway the ball comes out and Youngs kicks it to nowhere for absolutely no reason. We really need to fuck him off now, Randall was much better and I'd argue he isn't even then right choice to be starting.
Had a bit of a giggle at that, as I pictured you typing exactly that 😂
Seriously, though, I don’t mind Youngs in certain games and situations, but I was screaming at him.
We were in a great field position, too.
So, I think Jones has to start with Randell. I have a feeling, though the Youngs will start vrs Wales
4-5 years ago I thought he was massively overrated but given the competition was people like Care and Wigglesworth I accepted him as worthy of the shirt. His last 30-40 caps though have been at the expense of better players and seem to be entirely based on him being a tigers player who has a lot of caps. I just see nothing in his game that other 9s can't bring as part of a more complete package.
The shit kicking (and it is shit, they're always too long to be anything other than playing territory) is annoying but the 2-3 steps before he passes after taking 3-4 extra seconds to pick his options is what pisses me off the most. Teams know that you can get at England by closing the gate and rushing up on the 10 because the ball out is always slow. Every now and then he'll spot it coming and make a break but most of the time we just get caught with no room to play in, over and over again.
2 from Quirke, Randell, Mitchell or Van Poorfleit should be the options now, and Randall and Mitchell should've been sharing the shirt for 18 months before the other 2 left the U20s.
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Daily Mail are saying South Africa are in line to join the 6 Nations in 2025 in place of Italy.
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Hmmm can't see that working unless they're willing to play home games out of Madrid or Amsterdam, personally I'd prefer Georgia or Romania, why would northern hemisphere rugby want to help develop the south? Oh yes, money, screw the fans.
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I'd like to see some kind of play-in tournament for the 6th place in the 6N, but it'll never happen for fear of one of the '5 Nations' having a bad run of games, coming sixth and getting relegated
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They need to do something but adding SA is a terrible idea. I think I'd go for some sort of 2 level solution but that runs the risk of creating an international equivalent of Worcester/London Irish/Newcastle who tend to yoyo between the leagues most seasons.
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Given that most Saffer fans are probably in London, could they use Wembley as a base, perhaps ? In any case, I wonder what the effect would be on the Rugby Championship - will NZ and Aus be happy to play each other more regularly in between stuffings of Argentina ? The Tri-Nations was good with three equally matched teams. With one powerhouse, one who fluctuates, and one obvious weakling, what becomes of it ?
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I've just seen an idea on facebook that I like.
You have a playoff match every year between the the bottom placed 6n side and the top placed european championship side (so Italy and Georgia currently).
Whoever wins that plays in the 6N the following season with 5 home games whilst the other 5 teams play 2 home and 2 away.
I think that's about the best solution I've seen offered because the home advantage (in terms of finance if nothing else) helps close the gap, it doesn't solve the yoyo problem and it potentially widens the gap between the best 7 and the rest but you'd need other solutions there.
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Rather than doing a league, could they run 2 "mini-leagues" and a finals ? So, each year 10 teams go into the pot - the usual 6, plus SA, Georgia, then whoever the next best 2 in Europe are - maybe Germany because it'd be good to grow the game there and you'd have to imagine they're not short of enormous Teutons, and AN Other.
2 pools of 5 = 4 games. Italy, Georgia, Germany + AN Other play all games at home (that does seem like a really good idea - both in terms of giving them even a small chance of winning and gaining revenue). Top 2 in each group go on to semi-finals / final set-up.
Each year the groups are mixed up a bit to keep a bit of freshness in the fixture list. Don't know if this would sharpen or dull rivalries, mind.
Fantasy sports administration. Sure beats work...
Edit : A quick look at the rankings suggests that Germany are utterly terrible, so it would seem Romania and Spain and the next cabs on the rank
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I like the idea of 2 leagues side by side as well, but you'd have the problem of not having a calcutta cup game every year (personally I don't care but a lot of people would be against that).
I don't want SA anywhere near it though, I'd rather we invited the US and Canada before we let SA get involved, in fact I'd be all for reducing the influence SA rugby has in the NH from where it is, not going the other way. I see them as little better than the Russian Olympic association right now.
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Is that from a doping standpoint ? I vaguely remember hearing of a High School rugby doping scandal there when I was out there about 10 years ago, but not aware of anything at senior level.
I wouldn’t necessarily have SA either, might as well make it a European thing, just throwing them in because that is apparently the way things seem to be moving.
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Time zones, innit
SA might be southern hemisphere but they're European timezone.
As for other European rugby, there was a time a few years ago when half of the Malta national team were blokes from clubs around Gloucester
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Time zones shouldn't come into it, the 6 Nations is reasonably easy to get tickets and travel to, having games in SA would be prohibitively expensive.
Keep it European or make the SpongeBob's play in Spain or Portugal.
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Is that from a doping standpoint ? I vaguely remember hearing of a High School rugby doping scandal there when I was out there about 10 years ago, but not aware of anything at senior level.
I wouldn’t necessarily have SA either, might as well make it a European thing, just throwing them in because that is apparently the way things seem to be moving.
Yep, widespread doping of teenagers that was definitely still happening a couple of years ago. I didn't fully aappreciate how big a problem it was until I watched an under17 game a few years back where an English schools select team were playing their SA equivalent and the difference was insane, one team looked like schoolkids, the other looked ready to be playing senior rugby and at least of a couple of the kids in that side have since come out as haing been on steroids at the time.
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I like the idea of 2 leagues side by side as well, but you'd have the problem of not having a calcutta cup game every year (personally I don't care but a lot of people would be against that).
I don't want SA anywhere near it though, I'd rather we invited the US and Canada before we let SA get involved, in fact I'd be all for reducing the influence SA rugby has in the NH from where it is, not going the other way. I see them as little better than the Russian Olympic association right now.
No Calcutta Cup would be awful.
They would just have to play in the Autumn if drawn in a different league.
Inviting Canada or US is a decent call. Canada used to be pretty decent. Don’t know what they’re like these dsys
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I like the idea of 2 leagues side by side as well, but you'd have the problem of not having a calcutta cup game every year (personally I don't care but a lot of people would be against that).
I don't want SA anywhere near it though, I'd rather we invited the US and Canada before we let SA get involved, in fact I'd be all for reducing the influence SA rugby has in the NH from where it is, not going the other way. I see them as little better than the Russian Olympic association right now.
My brother's father in law was a director at Nuneaton for years, and his lad played for Leeds Tykes at the game was turning professional.
I was told of a player who played many times for England who was considered talented but too lightweight as a youth, and was shipped out to SA for a year to amend that, which it did, and this would be going back over 20 years now
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Time zones, innit
SA might be southern hemisphere but they're European timezone.
As for other European rugby, there was a time a few years ago when half of the Malta national team were blokes from clubs around Gloucester
There was a Canadian rugby league team in the league over here.
How did that work out?
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I like the idea of 2 leagues side by side as well, but you'd have the problem of not having a calcutta cup game every year (personally I don't care but a lot of people would be against that).
I don't want SA anywhere near it though, I'd rather we invited the US and Canada before we let SA get involved, in fact I'd be all for reducing the influence SA rugby has in the NH from where it is, not going the other way. I see them as little better than the Russian Olympic association right now.
My brother's father in law was a director at Nuneaton for years, and his lad played for Leeds Tykes at the game was turning professional.
I was told of a player who played many times for England who was considered talented but too lightweight as a youth, and was shipped out to SA for a year to amend that, which it did, and this would be going back over 20 years now
There's loads of stories of players adding 2-3st in muscle over the course of 12months as teenagers and suddenly looking ready to step up when there were question marks before that. As I say, it appears to have been so widespread over such a long time that it's on a par with the russian doping routines.
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Fair enough, it does explain how they seem to have an uninterrupted supply of psychopathic locks who can bench press a bus.
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6 Nations committee have issued a statement basically rubbishing the Daily Mail's story.
Good.
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Yep, great news, sadly coming shortly after Saracens are taken over by a new group with a heavy south african contigent.
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I say good, they really do need to do something with or about Italy.
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I say good, they really do need to do something with or about Italy.
I think Italy have looked pretty decent in games over the last couple of seasons, but they need to step out of the 6 nations to win some games.
Yes, they’d be winning games against lesser opponents, but they would get the winning mentality. At the moment they are, and always will be, plucky losers.
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Dombrandt & Smith start as does Manu & Lawes as captain.
We should have way too much up front for the Welsh.
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Don't be so quick, rumours that Manu won't make it.
Interesting fact for this weekend, England and Wales both being captained by Saints players, neither of which are the regular club captain.
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Yep he’s out.
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He just needs to retire now, his body has clearly had enough.
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It looks that way, doesn't it? It's never-ending, or in Manu's case, never starting!
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France are on fire here, 2nd try was incredible.
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Seriously impressive from the French. I reckon they’re the best team in the world right now.
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Seriously impressive from the French. I reckon they’re the best team in the world right now.
yep, and they haven't quite clicked yet in this 6N, if they put it all together against someone it could be a bloodbath.
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Very good first half from England, Randall and Smith showing very clearly where the problems have been for the last couple of years.
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I'm sure paul_e will join me in congratulating Ben Youngs on his record number of caps 😉
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I don’t know much about the finer aspects of the game - will wait for Squidge rugby to produce his analysis to see what I missed - but can’t help but think England are going to be on the end of that French bloodbath. Wales only have home advantage to cling to, because for me, on that showing, they’ll both get dicked by Les Bleus.
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The chance of Italy getting anything today were tiny, the red card made them almost nothing and then the silly scrum laws turned the whole thing into a farce.
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...and down to twelve players by the end!!
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...and down to twelve players by the end!!
The red and yellow cards were absolutely the correct decisions so them finishing with 13 after playing out 55minutes before that with 14 would've bene just and reasonable. I'd even be ok with forcing them to add a front row player to ensure they had 3 front row even if it was uncontested. |Making thme keep a full 8 forwards (and full front row) and then also punishing them by forcing a 2nd back off the pitch is a stupid rule made by people who are so concerned with cheats ruining a match that they created a rule that is far more harmful.
It's simple to fix just make it that, even if the scrum is uncontested, you must field 3 front row and 8 forwards on the pitch whilst you have a player sin-binned/sent off. Nothing more needs to be done than that, adding an extra punishment on top to ensure the other team keep their man advantage is fucking stupid because in truth it'sa punishment for the first player being injured and risks teams either trying to put an injured player back on or going with a 6-2 bench split and trying to create utility front row players who covers all 3 positions. In the latter case that guy will only ever play in these specific circumstances, or it further exaggerates the 'give me everything for 40-50minutes' issue that already exists where you'll have 2 players get 35-40minutes and the utility guy will get a few mniutes at the end.
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Back to the England Wales game and on the subject of crap refereeing, how come England weren't allowed 1 single tap and go penalty all game but Wales were allowed to score from their only one that was 4 metres out? He certainly liked his whistle and the only thing he got right all afternoon was not sin binning Lawes for his finger nail touching the ball and calling it a deliberate knock on.
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Back to the England Wales game and on the subject of crap refereeing, how come England weren't allowed 1 single tap and go penalty all game but Wales were allowed to score from their only one that was 4 metres out? He certainly liked his whistle and the only thing he got right all afternoon was not sin binning Lawes for his finger nail touching the ball and calling it a deliberate knock on.
I actually thought he had a decent game and was pretty consistent until the tap and go you mention.
The only other decision I had a problem with was in the same ruck where Williams got his yellow the Welsh prop did something far worse that should've made it a penalty try. - go to about the 1m mark here and watch the welsh number 1. I can't work out how the ref thinks that is ok and the TV official doesn't even look at it. Depending on your opinion on the phase the play is in there's 3 possible offences, if the ruck is formed/tackle is complete then he's either in from the side or sealing the ball off and if it isn't then he's guilty of not rolling away once Itoje joins. Given where it is all 3 are yellow card and penalty try offences.
Instead he gave the also clear and obvious Williams pen/yellow shortly after but that couldn't be a penalty try and we ended up with them fucking about in the scrum for a few minutes before the ref gave a penalty against us and we came away with nothing.
All I can think is that the whole thing was so blatant that it just confused the officials.
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Woof. France are just a bit good at scoring lovely tries.
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Good game but why have France decided to get into a kicking battle with Wales? There's only 1 winner in that.
When France punch through the middle and drew the wide defenders inside they scored then they seemed to forget that was the plan.
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Because some of the players are complacent.
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Good performance from Wales in a lot of ways but they never looked capable of getting a try so the french discipline won them the game.
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A new aspect of France game. A lot of discipline in defence. Looking forward to the game vs England. Wales can be disappointed they surely deserved more.
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By the way the French commentators are shit so i switched to the bbc. Much better.
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Good performance from Wales in a lot of ways but they never looked capable of getting a try so the french discipline won them the game.
They had the one real chance and Johnathan Davis, uncharacteristically, dropped the ball.
It’s a shame the French didn’t play well, as it probably means they’ll be really focused when they play England
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Good show from Italy today, with how young the current squad is I think they could close the gap a fair bit in the next few years.
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That's just stupid by Ewels, fucking twat.
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After the first 10 England were the better team because Ireland tried to carry on playing to the original plan.
In the end they're lucky to have this much of a lead. 2nd try should never have been allowed as Sinckler was down with a head injury that saw him off for a HIA before the conversiin was taken. Poor from the ref to not check, especially given he stopped play for the earlier head injury.
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Thought rugby crowds didn’t boo kickers?
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Bring on Ben Youngs to kick the ball to the opposition and give the game to Ireland.
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Youngs hasn't added anything but this is the result of 14 v 15 for 70minutes. No one but Ewels to blame, I'm pissed with the ref for their 2nd though, not because we conceded but the lack of concern for a head injury is just poor. Hopefully Simmonds is now firmly established in the squad, he's been superb today.
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England put up a plucky fight in what is Ireland's biggest ever win at Twickenham, we'll take that. Good luck to England next week.
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Laws need to change, that was a yellow all day long, no malice, no intent and he ruins the entire game.
Cynical interference by Ireland in the first half goes unpunished.
Penalty after penalty in the scrum goes unpunished.
Deliberate knock on goes unpunished.
Lack of concern for a possible head injury.
French referee got exactly what he wanted.
All the talk of Ireland challenging for a world cup, not a chance.
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Laws need to change, that was a yellow all day long, no malice, no intent and he ruins the entire game.
Cynical interference by Ireland in the first half goes unpunished.
Penalty after penalty in the scrum goes unpunished.
Deliberate knock on goes unpunished.
Lack of concern for a possible head injury.
French referee got exactly what he wanted.
All the talk of Ireland challenging for a world cup, not a chance.
That’s exactly how I saw it.
For me that was never a red. Granted, not the best position by Ewells, but there was no time to react once Ryan passed the ball. Slow motion replay made it look way worse.
The penalty count against Ireland was over 16 and not one yellow.
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England have more public schoolboys than the other five nations combined. They should pretty much always win this tournament at a canter. Yet when they, invariably, fuck it up, it's always unfair and somebody else's fault, somehow.
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Whether you agree with the law or not it was absolutely 100% a red card. Head on head contact which sees the opponent fail a HIA is exactly what they want to get rid of with the law changes over the last few years.
Ewels fucked up and is experienced enough to know better I have no sympathy for him and no complaints about the decision.
Where the ref was in the wrong was to not show the same care to Sinckler as he had to Ryan.
I also agree with the comment about the scrum, we were trashing them and their only answer was to collapse it. Collapsing the acrum is also very dangerous and something that is supposed to be stamped out so I'm not sure why he kept just giving pens but not getting out a card.
Final one, I think Henderson was very lucky to not get a yellow for handling on the floor. It was such a blatant bit of cheating that any decent ref would book him purely to set a marker that they wouldn't take that sort of bullshit. I've been given 2 yellows in my life and both were for prety much exactly what he did.
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England have more public schoolboys than the other five nations combined. They should pretty much always win this tournament at a canter. Yet when they, invariably, fuck it up, it's always unfair and somebody else's fault, somehow.
Haha, we've missed you.
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England have more public schoolboys than the other five nations combined. They should pretty much always win this tournament at a canter. Yet when they, invariably, fuck it up, it's always unfair and somebody else's fault, somehow.
I wasn’t expecting England to win the 6N or probably even yesterday but 2 weekends on the trot a French referee has ruined a game with shit decisions. They’re fucking useless.
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Whether you agree with the law or not it was absolutely 100% a red card. Head on head contact which sees the opponent fail a HIA is exactly what they want to get rid of with the law changes over the last few years.
Ewels fucked up and is experienced enough to know better I have no sympathy for him and no complaints about the decision.
Where the ref was in the wrong was to not show the same care to Sinckler as he had to Ryan.
I also agree with the comment about the scrum, we were trashing them and their only answer was to collapse it. Collapsing the acrum is also very dangerous and something that is supposed to be stamped out so I'm not sure why he kept just giving pens but not getting out a card.
Final one, I think Henderson was very lucky to not get a yellow for handling on the floor. It was such a blatant bit of cheating that any decent ref would book him purely to set a marker that they wouldn't take that sort of bullshit. I've been given 2 yellows in my life and both were for prety much exactly what he did.
By the current laws of the game, it was 100%, all day long, a red card. I agree there was no intent and it was harsh, but the thinking is that Ewels was in the wrong position to make the tackle which caused dangerous contact to the head.
The refereeing of rugby is wildly inconsistent, but if Henderson was lucky to avoid yellow, then Itoje was also massively fortunate when he grabbed the arm of the Irish scrum half in a ruck on England's line. The ref even had his card out, but did a strange u-turn.
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I don't feel the nationality of the referee should come into it.
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I don't feel the nationality of the referee should come into it.
It does in rugby as they referee certain aspects of the game differently in certain countries. That's obviously not saying that all referees from a certain country are better / worse than others.
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Whether you agree with the law or not it was absolutely 100% a red card. Head on head contact which sees the opponent fail a HIA is exactly what they want to get rid of with the law changes over the last few years.
Ewels fucked up and is experienced enough to know better I have no sympathy for him and no complaints about the decision.
Where the ref was in the wrong was to not show the same care to Sinckler as he had to Ryan.
I also agree with the comment about the scrum, we were trashing them and their only answer was to collapse it. Collapsing the acrum is also very dangerous and something that is supposed to be stamped out so I'm not sure why he kept just giving pens but not getting out a card.
Final one, I think Henderson was very lucky to not get a yellow for handling on the floor. It was such a blatant bit of cheating that any decent ref would book him purely to set a marker that they wouldn't take that sort of bullshit. I've been given 2 yellows in my life and both were for prety much exactly what he did.
By the current laws of the game, it was 100%, all day long, a red card. I agree there was no intent and it was harsh, but the thinking is that Ewels was in the wrong position to make the tackle which caused dangerous contact to the head.
The refereeing of rugby is wildly inconsistent, but if Henderson was lucky to avoid yellow, then Itoje was also massively fortunate when he grabbed the arm of the Irish scrum half in a ruck on England's line. The ref even had his card out, but did a strange u-turn.
The Henderson and Itoje ones are very different. Itoje was on his feet and the SH lifted the ball slightly and then put it back down, Itoje judged the lift to mean the ball was out and made the tackle, the ref didn't agree and gave the penalty but it could've gone either way (I think the ref got it right but there's enough grey in there to see why Itoje thought he was ok).
Henderson was lying on his back and when Randall went to play the ball he just scooped it away, there's no grey in that he wanted to slow the ball coming out of the ruck and maybe make the ref think there was a little knock-on from Randall, he 100% knew he was taking the piss.
The big one that's come since that I didn't notice during the game is the straight arm high shot by Furlong on Slade. - https://twitter.com/TimWhite40/status/1502707118402592776 - On the same measure as Ewels he should've gone for that, horrible lazy tackle that all the officials seemed to miss. There is maybe some mitigation in that Slade is pretty low but given he doesn't dip into contact I don't think that's much of a defence.
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Whether you agree with the law or not it was absolutely 100% a red card. Head on head contact which sees the opponent fail a HIA is exactly what they want to get rid of with the law changes over the last few years.
Ewels fucked up and is experienced enough to know better I have no sympathy for him and no complaints about the decision.
Where the ref was in the wrong was to not show the same care to Sinckler as he had to Ryan.
I also agree with the comment about the scrum, we were trashing them and their only answer was to collapse it. Collapsing the acrum is also very dangerous and something that is supposed to be stamped out so I'm not sure why he kept just giving pens but not getting out a card.
Final one, I think Henderson was very lucky to not get a yellow for handling on the floor. It was such a blatant bit of cheating that any decent ref would book him purely to set a marker that they wouldn't take that sort of bullshit. I've been given 2 yellows in my life and both were for prety much exactly what he did.
By the current laws of the game, it was 100%, all day long, a red card. I agree there was no intent and it was harsh, but the thinking is that Ewels was in the wrong position to make the tackle which caused dangerous contact to the head.
The refereeing of rugby is wildly inconsistent, but if Henderson was lucky to avoid yellow, then Itoje was also massively fortunate when he grabbed the arm of the Irish scrum half in a ruck on England's line. The ref even had his card out, but did a strange u-turn.
The Henderson and Itoje ones are very different. Itoje was on his feet and the SH lifted the ball slightly and then put it back down, Itoje judged the lift to mean the ball was out and made the tackle, the ref didn't agree and gave the penalty but it could've gone either way (I think the ref got it right but there's enough grey in there to see why Itoje thought he was ok).
Henderson was lying on his back and when Randall went to play the ball he just scooped it away, there's no grey in that he wanted to slow the ball coming out of the ruck and maybe make the ref think there was a little knock-on from Randall, he 100% knew he was taking the piss.
The big one that's come since that I didn't notice during the game is the straight arm high shot by Furlong on Slade. - https://twitter.com/TimWhite40/status/1502707118402592776 - On the same measure as Ewels he should've gone for that, horrible lazy tackle that all the officials seemed to miss. There is maybe some mitigation in that Slade is pretty low but given he doesn't dip into contact I don't think that's much of a defence.
I did notice the straight arm, but thought I must have seen it wrong as nothing was even looked at
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Same. I saw it real time but thought I must’ve imagined it as once they identified the knock on (I think) they disallowed the try and stopped looking at the rest if the play.
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Get in, brilliant performance from Italy. I said last week that I thought they looked like they were going to improve, today is further evidence of it. 5-6 players that I think could be world class.
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Looked well-deserved from what I saw of the game. Happy for Italy and good for the championship as long as it's not your team that losing to them.
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Looked well-deserved from what I saw of the game. Happy for Italy and good for the championship as long as it's not your team that losing to them.
Wales clearly had the extra bit of quality if the game got loose but Italy did a brilliant job of controlling the tempo and making it a real arm-wrestle of a game and absolutely deserved the win.
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This has been a brilliant display from Wayne Barnes so far, Sexton has been chirping at him all game but he's not let him bother him.
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
He got all the major calls right today, the scottish try was fine and giving anything against Schoeman for leading with the arm would've been incredibly harsh, in truth Henderson is lucky Schoeman did raise his arms because if he hadn't there'd almost certainly have been head-on-head contact and Henderson would've seen red.
28-5 was harsh on the scots who played their part but just couldn't take their chances, the one Hogg missed in the corner is about as bad a butchering of a chance as you'll ever see.
On Ireland, they did very well taking their chances and, as ever, they're a really tough team to break through. On top of that in Sheehan I think they've found someone a bit special, he was exceptional today and he's basically a 4th back row in the open but then does everything you want from your hooker in the set piece.
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Hogg seems to have an enormous ego. I'm not sure he passed once in favour of trying to make a break, and can't remember him making a line break.
Anyway, Le Crunch. If French TV is anything to go by, they are (unsurprisingly) *well up* for this. Best part of a 90 mins build-up on France 2 and Canal Plus, with highlights including Saint-Andre's try in 1991.
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
Sexton is a gobshite in the same mould as Stringer was. Barnes let him gob off all afternoon.
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When the TMO intervened, I thought it was Henderson’s tackle technique that was in question.
Wayne was quite right not to give anything against the Scotland player.
Wayne and Polly are organising another charity game at Lydney RFC on the first weekend of June
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When the TMO intervened, I thought it was Henderson’s tackle technique that was in question.
Wayne was quite right not to give anything against the Scotland player.
Wayne and Polly are organising another charity game at Lydney RFC on the first weekend of June
Me too, I was really surprised when they said the review was against Schoeman, as I said I reckon he saved Henderson from a red by pushing him away, tackle was every bit as shit as Ewels last week.
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Come on you Cooooooocks!
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Goooooooooooooooooooool!
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
He got all the major calls right today, the scottish try was fine and giving anything against Schoeman for leading with the arm would've been incredibly harsh, in truth Henderson is lucky Schoeman did raise his arms because if he hadn't there'd almost certainly have been head-on-head contact and Henderson would've seen red.
28-5 was harsh on the scots who played their part but just couldn't take their chances, the one Hogg missed in the corner is about as bad a butchering of a chance as you'll ever see.
On Ireland, they did very well taking their chances and, as ever, they're a really tough team to break through. On top of that in Sheehan I think they've found someone a bit special, he was exceptional today and he's basically a 4th back row in the open but then does everything you want from your hooker in the set piece.
Wasn't moaning about his calls today, just pointing there's a bit of history with him just as we have with Kevin Friend etc.
Fair summary of the game there. Even the guys on Irish TV said it felt a bit flat for a bonus point win to seal a 'Triple Crown' but I guess that comes with heightened expectations.
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
Sexton is a gobshite in the same mould as Stringer was. Barnes let him gob off all afternoon.
Or a top-class captain depending on your point of view.
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Ben Youngs is excelling at making us slow and predictable again, he's so fucking shit that I can only assume he has compromising photos of someone.
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
Sexton is a gobshite in the same mould as Stringer was. Barnes let him gob off all afternoon.
Or a top-class captain depending on your point of view.
Nope. Gobshite.
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Ben Youngs is excelling at making us slow and predictable again, he's so fucking shit that I can only assume he has compromising photos of someone.
Hopefully this will speed up Jones’s exit. How you can keep on picking Youngs is beyond me and as for Furbank fucking hell.
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Wales 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Allez les Bleus.
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I'm enjoying this.
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Makes a change for France not to bottle it.
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Ben Youngs is excelling at making us slow and predictable again, he's so fucking shit that I can only assume he has compromising photos of someone.
I have struggled for some time to understand why he is anywhere near the England team. I thought it was just me.
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Ben Youngs is excelling at making us slow and predictable again, he's so fucking shit that I can only assume he has compromising photos of someone.
I have struggled for some time to understand why he is anywhere near the England team. I thought it was just me.
That absolutely has to be the last we see of Youngs now, hopefully he won’t make the Barbarians game and not will Jones.
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Well played France, well deserved over the championship.
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Makes a change for France not to bottle it.
Oh my god! Are we talking rugby or military battles won here? Saltometer off the scale! Bisous !
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Ben Youngs is excelling at making us slow and predictable again, he's so fucking shit that I can only assume he has compromising photos of someone.
Hopefully this will speed up Jones’s exit. How you can keep on picking Youngs is beyond me and as for Furbank fucking hell.
Harsh on Furbank, I think he played pretty well other than the 1 mistake where he stepped into touch, the benefit of him being there was that Steward gave us a weapon in our kick chase. I personally liked the 2 15 setup they gave us, but we needed a Radwan/Watson/Cokanasiga on the bench instead of Daly.
I think part of the problem in the backs is that Jones has his favourites who he is desperate to see back in the side so the pressure on people who come in is unfairly huge. Marchant is a great example, he's played well within himself until today when he seemed to finally accept that he was 'in' and could play his own game, Simmonds is similar and Randall seems to have been shunted into the same position.
I'm all for players having to earn the shirt but giving new guys 1-2 games at a time whilst your 'pets' get countless chances regardless of fitness, form or ability is a great way of crippling the team of it's creativity.
All said france were excellent, Dupont will get the plaudits but, for me, player of the tournament is between Alldritt, Jelonch and Fickou who were all brilliant all tournament.
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Makes a change for France not to bottle it.
Oh my god! Are we talking rugby or military battles won here? Saltometer off the scale! Bisous !
To be fair france have bottled a few championships in the last 15-20 years so he's not wrong to mention it. This team is different though, right now they are miles ahead of anyone else in the world.
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Barnes has never seemed to be too keen on the Irish and the feeling's mutual.
Sexton is a gobshite in the same mould as Stringer was. Barnes let him gob off all afternoon.
Or a top-class captain depending on your point of view.
Nope. Gobshite.
Yep, he's definitely a gobshite, great player though, who will be very hard for them to replace, Carbery is a long way short and I haven't seen anyone else that looks like stepping up.
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Hello! Whatever! We seem to have won this year's edition. Suck it up!
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And completely deserved too over the course of the competition. It remains to be seen whether you’ll push on now and get past the quarter finals of the World Cup in you own country.
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Hello! Whatever! We seem to have won this year's edition. Suck it up!
Yes, the French definitely deserved it this year although it wasn't the highest quality 6N. Happy enough with a 'Triple Crown' for Ireland given our away fixtures and the 1,2,3 in the table as expected pre-tournament. Italy's first away win in Cardiff a welcome bonus today.
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I was a bit tipsy last night. :-)
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France: Easily the best team, but can have a wobble, as Wales proved.
Ireland: Consistent across the board, except vrs France
England: Inconsistent. Should do better. Change of coach? Bring in Sean Edwards
Scotland: Inconsistent, beat England, lose to Wales says it all. On their day will give any team a game.
Wales: Frustrating. Can look good, and have some good players. It depends on which Wales turn up.
Italy: Have improved beyond recognition. Played some cracking rugby. Still a way to go, but we’ll done to them.
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Yes, the table doesn't lie. France were outstanding.
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I was a bit tipsy last night. :-)
No shit Sherlock.
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Thankfully it appears Jones is still the man to lead England to the 'Promised Land'. Deserves a chance to finish building a new England team.
“Eddie Jones is building a new England team and against a clear strategy we are encouraged by the solid progress the team has made during this Six Nations campaign. The RFU continues to fully support Eddie, the coaching team and players and we are excited about the summer tour and the progress to rebuild a winning England team."
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The good old board vote of confidence, I doubt many of them were awake to watch the dross served up for the second year running by Jones.
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The good old board vote of confidence, I doubt many of them were awake to watch the dross served up for the second year running by Jones.
We got bullied at the world cup and we haven'r played well for more thana few short spells ever since, with 18months until the next one tha'ts a hell of a long time for us to be a team in transition. To make it worse he's wasted a lot of that time by picking players that weren't going to be part of the next WC squad in front of very talented youngsters.
I think it's now at the point where it'd be embarrassing to sack him before the world cup unless things fall apart completely, It might have been better for us to have conceded a few more points in the last 2 games to make the gap look huge and paanic them into action. I reckon if Scotland had got the points to finish above us that statement would look a lot more desperate.
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England look like a poorly coached team. There’s just a lack of cohesion - Jones did a great job when he first came in, and then had a renaissance up to and including the semi-final at the last World Cup. But since then it’s been really ropey and simply not good enough.
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England have zero chance of winning the World Cup with that clown in charge playing his favourites every game rather than picking on form….bin Jones, bin Youngs permanently & actually try and play some decent rugby that isn’t just kick it away at every opportunity.
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That statement from the RFU is beyond parody. If you want back Jones then fine, but don’t just lie.
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England have zero chance of winning the World Cup with that clown in charge playing his favourites every game rather than picking on form….bin Jones, bin Youngs permanently & actually try and play some decent rugby that isn’t just kick it away at every opportunity.
Kicking isn’t a problem - France kick the ball away a lot. The difference is the French are doing it to gain field position and then are razor sharp once they’re in that position. England aren’t, we’re aimless and lack a vision on how we want to play.
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England have zero chance of winning the World Cup with that clown in charge playing his favourites every game rather than picking on form….bin Jones, bin Youngs permanently & actually try and play some decent rugby that isn’t just kick it away at every opportunity.
Kicking isn’t a problem - France kick the ball away a lot. The difference is the French are doing it to gain field position and then are razor sharp once they’re in that position. England aren’t, we’re aimless and lack a vision on how we want to play.
Kicking the ball away (for territory) is fine if you have 3 things:
1. A structured kick chase strategy that everyone in the team has a part in, far too often England kick aimlessly and chase it 'off the cuff', Steward on the wing was a good first step to address this but we still didn't compete or press well for most kicks. Look at Ireland and France and they have very clear ideas of what they want to get from their kicks.
2. A dominant defence that is regularly 'winning' the contact, knocking carriers back, winning regular turnoners and slowing down the ball. By getting all of this right you force the opposition to load the breakdown, reducing their options and forcing them to kick on your terms. All of this makes them less likely to run it back at you when you kick. England are really odd with this, sometimes we get every part of it right, and other times we're so passive in defence that it can only be a tactical decision.
3. A couple of magicians who thrive in the extra space you're creating by opening the field up with kicks. This is where England have got things so badly wrong right now, Jones has filled the team with distributors and crash runners over the last few years and let the flair players fall away. We need a couple of people in there that the oppoisition are scared of in open space, a Robinson and a Greenwood in this England team would make a huge difference.
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Still don't understand why the Welsh scrum half kicked with 90 seconds left on the clock.
One or two more charges by the forwards and they could have just kicked the ball out to end the game
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Tough one really, playing through phases in your own 22 is massively risky, only needs a bit of poor handling, a good counter-ruck or the ref calling for sealing off and you're gifting them an opportunity. You'd normally expect to make a tackle around halfway and challenge them to go through the phases, was a brilliant break by the Italian fullback but I reckon 99 times out of a hundred that works out well for Wales.
Josh Adams gets the criticism for me, his positioning and attempt at the tackle is really lazy, was all a bit 'going through the motions' rather than actually playing the situation. He's 2 yards too wide and at least a yard in front of Falatau, if he's where he's meant to be there's no option for the italian to straighten and make the break.
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England have zero chance of winning the World Cup with that clown in charge playing his favourites every game rather than picking on form….bin Jones, bin Youngs permanently & actually try and play some decent rugby that isn’t just kick it away at every opportunity.
Kicking isn’t a problem - France kick the ball away a lot. The difference is the French are doing it to gain field position and then are razor sharp once they’re in that position. England aren’t, we’re aimless and lack a vision on how we want to play.
Kicking the ball away (for territory) is fine if you have 3 things:
1. A structured kick chase strategy that everyone in the team has a part in, far too often England kick aimlessly and chase it 'off the cuff', Steward on the wing was a good first step to address this but we still didn't compete or press well for most kicks. Look at Ireland and France and they have very clear ideas of what they want to get from their kicks.
2. A dominant defence that is regularly 'winning' the contact, knocking carriers back, winning regular turnoners and slowing down the ball. By getting all of this right you force the opposition to load the breakdown, reducing their options and forcing them to kick on your terms. All of this makes them less likely to run it back at you when you kick. England are really odd with this, sometimes we get every part of it right, and other times we're so passive in defence that it can only be a tactical decision.
3. A couple of magicians who thrive in the extra space you're creating by opening the field up with kicks. This is where England have got things so badly wrong right now, Jones has filled the team with distributors and crash runners over the last few years and let the flair players fall away. We need a couple of people in there that the oppoisition are scared of in open space, a Robinson and a Greenwood in this England team would make a huge difference.
Couldn’t agree more with point 1 - kicking to a plan is good, just hammering it likes it’s a grenade that you have no chance of catching like Youngs does is utterly pointless
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Interesting read
Certainly answers a few questions
https://www.planetrugby.com/opinion-five-busted-myths-about-england-after-six-nations-and-what-eddie-jones-needs-to-do-before-rugby-world-cup/
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This may be of interest after last week's 6N victory for Italy.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/matt-williams-italy-s-youth-programme-being-dismantled-just-as-it-bears-fruit-1.4836166
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This may be of interest after last week's 6N victory for Italy.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/matt-williams-italy-s-youth-programme-being-dismantled-just-as-it-bears-fruit-1.4836166
Absolutely crazy
I thought Italy had turned the corner in this years 6 nations, they played some great stuff in all matches.
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There’s a story on bbc sport looking at eventual replacement for Eddie Jones.
Borthwick, Baxter and Cockerill were three that were mentioned.
It stated that they would be looking at an English appointment, international experience not necessarily required.
Probably a long shot, but Andy Farrell seems to be doing a good job at Ireland.
Would be interesting to see if they go for Sean Edwards as defensive coach. Has been excellent at both Wales and France.
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Farrell is a no for me, he's a good coach but not right fit or style for England.
Cockerill would be a no because he's a twat, I'd take Baxter or Borthwick though,
I'd be all for having Edwards as a defensive coach, he's shown repeatedly that he's the best in the business.
Overall it's pretty difficult to know where England should go next but whoever they pick needs to be someone who lets them off the leash a little more, Englands problem in the rugby mirrors the footbal lteam perfectly, we're setup in a wau that we can beat most teams by sticking to the 'formula' but as soon as sides disrupt that, because we're so over-coached to play set moves, we look like we have no plan 'b'. Even when we win games it's rarely comfortable and you can see signs of why things will break down at some point, it just always so conservative.
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Red Roses win the Grand Slam. Awesome forwards
Got to be worth a bet for the World Cup
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Red Roses win the Grand Slam. Awesome forwards
Got to be worth a bet for the World Cup
I was annoyed to have something clash with it, so missed it. Seeing as they've recently trashed New Zealand and bullied France yesterday (by all accounts) - the only remotely competitive teams - 'worth a bet' should really be 'almost sure thing', assuming they can get their travel plans right to not arrive in NZ knackered.
TBH though, it would be a shame if England women became a steamroller in the women's game through sheer financial advantage. The games between them, France and NZ (and Australia too to a certain degree) were / are really good entertainment and I wouldn't want to change that. In an ideal world, the other Home Nations would be able to kick on quickly, but unfortunately at the moment the Women's 6N is basically England, France and 4 Italys.
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The England team are bringing the rest forward. The Scots Welsh and Irish are now going to central contracts. I can't believe it took the Welsh so long seeing it's their national sport. The Black ferns likewise. To be honest I was concerned about yesterday, seeing we were without Sarah Hunter, captain and number 8, Abby Dow winger, broke her leg in the Ireland game. And a partially fit Poppy Cleal. All regular starters. This was Frances big chance. And they blew it on penalty count.
If you look at it one way you could say we have beaten the top four in the world this season over five games something like 300 points to 50 culmulatively . However 4 were at home and NZ and Canada haven't played for 18 months due to covid. NZ have employed serious coaches this year including Graham Henry. So the world cup should be a bit closer. We will still win it.
Marlie Packed should win player of the 6 nations, Poppy did last year.
England have the last 3 women's world player of the year, and for the first time ever, Simon Middleton the women's coach, won the world coach of the year, men or women.
Now you can argue about the finances, but they are not too much more than some of the rest, but aside from that this team is something special.
And to put it into perspective regarding the money, plenty of the girls don't have a monies family behind them. Marie Packer a plumber 3 years ago, now a contracted player can't afford to take her partner and son to the world cup in NZ.
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Yes, I agree that in the long run the others will catch up, especially once they all professionalise, and expect the Women's 6N to be a belting continuation to the Men's 6N through April & May going forward.
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It isn't just about money, England have at least 3 exceptional players in this team who would be obvious picks in the 'best world XV of all time', it's a bit like if Brazil had been able to pick Pele and Ronaldo as strike partnership with Ronaldinho on the wing. Having that much quality in the team together drags standards up massively.
Of course professionalism and central contracts have also helped massively meaning players like Scarratt, Bern and Hunter can reach their huge potential.
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https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/09/rugby-powers-talks-new-global-north-v-south-tournament (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/may/09/rugby-powers-talks-new-global-north-v-south-tournament)
Am I the only one who sees the idea of a biennal North v South tournament as a dilution of the RWC ? Whilst the idea of a solid day of rugby - "it is understood there is some support for a finals day involving all teams, rather than a single fixture between the top two sides" - sounds great, it all strikes me as being analagous to FIFA's cash grab to hold the football World Cup every two years.
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Sounds better than friendlies.
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In completely unsurprising news, Manu Tuilagi has failed his MOT yet again and will not go on tour to Australia. I predict he will be fit enough for 2023 6N, do just enough to be an obvious choice at 12/13, then break down similarly about 30 seconds before England's first game of the RWC. Why on Earth Eddie Jones is even bothering to look at him these days is beyond me.
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Speculation that the Northants lad, Freeman, might get a run.
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Speculation that the Northants lad, Freeman, might get a run.
I hope so, he's a bit special, his angles of running and ability to find soft shoulders is superb.
I'm also a big fan of having 1 winger be versatile enough to play 3-4 positions and he ticks that box.
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So does Jack Nowell, if he can stay fit.
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Phil Bennett, dead at 73.
Oh, those sidesteps
Both the tackles on JPR would, quite rightly, be red cards now
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Danny Care back in the England squad
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Danny Care back in the England squad
Really like Danny Care, but this is quite an odd one, unless they’ve got injury issues at 9
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I suspect it's because Youngs is missing and he likes to have an experienced 9 available. The problem there is that the reason we only have 2 experienced 9s is because he's spent 7 years picking Youngs and then older players as cover so people like Robson have been ignored and Mitchell is probably 10-12 caps short of what he should have.
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The 2021 Lions documentary starts on Sunday night on ITV - obviously won’t be as good as the John Bentley running around with a camcorder ones but should still be interesting given all the covid stuff around the tour.
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Best rugby club team in the world won yet another super rugby title tonight. Go the Crusaders.
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Best rugby club team in the world won yet another super rugby title tonight. Go the Crusaders.
Clean forgot about this.
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England vs Barbars this afternoon. Looking forward to seeing Freeman, I think he's the player that Jones has been trying to turn Malins or Daly into so I really hope he forces his way in.
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England tour squad
The eight uncapped players in the squad are Patrick Schickerling of Exeter Chiefs, London Irish duo Henry Arundell and Will Joseph, Northampton Saints' Fraser Dingwall and Tommy Freeman, Leicester Tigers' Guy Porter and Jack van Poortvliet, along with Jack Walker of Harlequins.
England squad:
Forwards: Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints), Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Wasps).
Backs: Henry Arundell (London Irish), Danny Care (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Will Joseph (London Irish), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers), Harry Randall (Bristol Bears), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers).
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Ireland were poor this morning, played into NZ hands with their tactics, however I was really disappointed with the ref who let NZ make a lot of professional fouls on their try line before eventually punishing them with minutes left on the clock and the game clearly long done.
On to Australia vs England. On paper the England team is stronger by a fair degree but it really depends which team turns up. I'm slightly disappointed by the bench, doesn't look like there's a huge amount of impact there outside Ludlam and LCD. Arundell is a bit of a wildcard though, but I think he's mostly there so we can get him capped and stop him going anywhere else.
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England 6-0 up and Australia have lost their Fullback with what looks like a really nasty broken arm.
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I’m watching this with Aussie commentary and by Christ they are salty. From the kick-off too, continual low-level sniping essentially about how the ref is being conned by England, but the red card has led to a new level of bitchy whining.
Edit : HT now. Both teams look comically bereft of ideas with ball in hand compared to the Japan-France match this morning. I don't watch the club game and don't grasp union tactics much, but I fail to see how Marcus Smith is the next great thing, all I see is a little jump then get wrapped up by the first tackler.
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I’m watching this with Aussie commentary and by Christ they are salty. From the kick-off too, continual low-level sniping essentially about how the ref is being conned by England, but the red card has led to a new level of bitchy whining.
Edit : HT now. Both teams look comically bereft of ideas with ball in hand compared to the Japan-France match this morning. I don't watch the club game and don't grasp union tactics much, but I fail to see how Marcus Smith is the next great thing, all I see is a little jump then get wrapped up by the first tackler.
I'm watching the same and I agree, the commentary is pathetic.
Smith needs more runners, his game at quins is about dragging defenders around to create gaps to put runners through, Engliand right now aren't running those lines and he's having to just carry into contact. Vunipola is a big part of the problem because he just doesn't do that. Ludlam will be on later and I suspect he will be more willing to make those runs.
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I missed that Ludlam was already on at halftime but I think he is helping us look more dangerous , hard to know how much is down to the red card though really.
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Whilst I recognise red cards are necessary, I always feel they destroy rugby games a lot more than football.
As for Smith, if that’s his game, then we should surely be building around that then ? Otherwise might as well put Farrell at 10 and try and find a decent centre pairing. Just strikes me that, for the hype, I’ve not seen Smith manage a game like Wilkinson or Carter, nor tear a defence a new one like Barrett or Carter.
Of course, Aus have scored now I say that red cards kill rugby matches…
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Jones shouldn’t be allowed to see this series out, why the fuck is Farrell even out there let alone playing absolutely shite.
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That last 20 minutes was pathetic 2 very late tries can't hide the fact that we collapsed as completely as I've ever seen.
Also Farrell is there for his kicking game and he missed a couple of important chances that should be taken at this level.
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That’s a terrible result. Like anything you get to end of a cycle with coaches/management. It’s been clear that Jones should have finished after the 2019 World Cup.
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That last 20 minutes was pathetic 2 very late tries can't hide the fact that we collapsed as completely as I've ever seen.
Also Farrell is there for his kicking game and he missed a couple of important chances that should be taken at this level.
Thing is, mate, Smith is an excellent kicker, too, so I can’t understand why Farrell gets in these days.
I like Farrell, but now is the time to move on.
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South Africa win with the final kick of the game.
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I don’t think you have to write Farrell off. At top form he’s a bloody good player - the problem is picking him irrespective of form.
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I don’t think you have to write Farrell off. At top form he’s a bloody good player - the problem is picking him irrespective of form.
I think part of the problem right now is that farrell, george, the vunipolas and a few others got dropped for poor performance and now they're all back despite the replacements doing a decent job and looking like they just needed to get more experience. It's like we've gone back to 2019 again.
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Yes, go Ireland, smashed the All Blacks tonight. What a great result.
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That England try is one of the best lineout moves ever, absolutely unstoppable.
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Forgot about the match entirely. Observation about that injury - the Aussie threw the ball away as he was injured, when play restarts it's an England scrum, but we didn't make any sort of sportsmanly gesture to give it back to Aus, just played on as if normal. Seems odd for a game which prides itself on sportsmanlike conduct. Is that the understanding ? Unlucky stuff happens but the oppo won't "even it up" ?
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Adding nothing to the debate but I noticed that none of the adverts on the pitch are actually there. When you see behind the goal angles there are no adverts.
And Australia sponsored by Cadbury and Land Rover?
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Well done Ireland
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poor second half from England again but this time we had enough on the board from our 'good half' to hang on. Papering over the cracks a little becuase a brilliant set piece try aside we never looked capable of threatening them.
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Cheer up, they just beat Australia away. You make it sound like you've just lost to Samoa.
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Some right rubbish teams have beaten Australia away in recent years
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Cheer up, they just beat Australia away. You make it sound like you've just lost to Samoa.
Yes we won but mostly because of their poor discipline rather than because of anything we were doing. My biggest complaint is that we had Nowell and Freeman working their bollocks off to get on the shoulder of the carrier and the forwards went into contact instead, time after time, that's down to training and tactics because a lot of these players would be looking to move the ball on at club level.
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World rankings
1 France, first time they’ve been top
2 Ireland
3 S Africa
4 New Zealand, lowest ever position
5 England
6 Australia
7 Scotland
8 Wales
9 Argentina
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Seems about right, I'd probably swap Ireland and SA but they're very close. England really should be up there as well but Jones seems to throw games every now and then so he can try a new tactic.
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If Ireland hadn’t conceded that late try vrs NZ they would have been top.
I’m guessing Japan are 10th as Georgia and Italy are 11 and 12 respectively
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Don’t want to jinx it but Ireland are wiping the floor with All Blacks.
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Blimey NZ look a shadow of their former selves.
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How about ye!
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The ref in this Australia vs England game is making some interesting calls, letting Hooper , from inside the ruck, play the scrum half is particularly poor.
That said England haven't really go started until that break fro Freeman.
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Don’t want to jinx it but Ireland are wiping the floor with All Blacks.
Fortunately you didn't. :)
Ireland become only the third team, and the first from the Northern Hemisphere, to win a 3 games series in NZ.
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Excellent from Ireland, Brilliant from England.
Wales and Scotland to give the home nations a clean sweep over the Southern Hemisphere? 🏉
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Excellent from Ireland, Brilliant from England.
Wales and Scotland to give the home nations a clean sweep over the Southern Hemisphere? 🏉
Wales is the big question mark for me.
On England Lawes was just brilliant today, best player in the world right now in my opinion.
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Tremendous results from both Ireland and England. Winning series in the Southern Hemisphere is rare and should be appreciated.
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Excellent from Ireland, Brilliant from England.
Wales and Scotland to give the home nations a clean sweep over the Southern Hemisphere? 🏉
Wales is the big question mark for me.
On England Lawes was just brilliant today, best player in the world right now in my opinion.
I agree
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Don’t want to jinx it but Ireland are wiping the floor with All Blacks.
Fortunately you didn't. :)
Ireland become only the third team, and the first from the Northern Hemisphere, to win a 3 games series in NZ.
I went to the winning series in Aus in 2018 and thought we were looking good for the World Cup. Not making that mistake again.
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Don’t want to jinx it but Ireland are wiping the floor with All Blacks.
Fortunately you didn't. :)
Ireland become only the third team, and the first from the Northern Hemisphere, to win a 3 games series in NZ.
Have a dance to that, NZ 🖕
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Why was Genge taken off on Saturday? He absolutely monstered Kerevi, properly sat him down after his pathetic attempt at a tackle on Genge. It was a thing of beauty.
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Why was Genge taken off on Saturday? He absolutely monstered Kerevi, properly sat him down after his pathetic attempt at a tackle on Genge. It was a thing of beauty.
Because he's a front row, they just don't play 80mins in the professional game.
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Don’t want to jinx it but Ireland are wiping the floor with All Blacks.
Fortunately you didn't. :)
Ireland become only the third team, and the first from the Northern Hemisphere, to win a 3 games series in NZ.
Have a dance to that, NZ 🖕
Ireland, No. 1 in the world and now top of the World Rugby Rankings. ;)
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Marika Koroibete’s tackle on Mapimpi this morning…..holy feck
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/12682552/how-on-earth-did-he-deliver-that-wow-incredible-try-saving-tackle-from-marika-koroibete
Also….Nic White is a diving cheat
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Impressive win for Argentina. Hopefully they win the title.
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Impressive win for Argentina. Hopefully they win the title.
Its brilliant. The country has gone into meltdown. Ha,ha.
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It’s a good win for Argentina but this is a very poor ABs side. The coach Foster is as out of his depth as Steve McClaren was in his international career. Incomprehensibly, the rugby board here has given him a clear run to the World Cup - if the ABs under him win the tournament will be the least likely victory since Aldaniti…
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Marika Koroibete’s tackle on Mapimpi this morning…..holy feck
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/12682552/how-on-earth-did-he-deliver-that-wow-incredible-try-saving-tackle-from-marika-koroibete
Also….Nic White is a diving cheat
Having watched that a fair few times I'm not sure it was a legal tackle, his left arm is in no position to wrap until it rides through the contact and he makes no attempt to wrap his right arm, if Farrell did that you'd have the entire Southern Hemisphere screaming shoulder boy and demanding he get banned.
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I thought the arms were ok……just
However, it was probably a penalty against Mapimpi for jumping into the tackle, albeit as an act of self preservation.
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I thought the arms were ok……just
However, it was probably a penalty against Mapimpi for jumping into the tackle, albeit as an act of self preservation.
I think both of them were right on the edge. more importantly, the pass to Mapimpi and Mapimpi's positioning to take it were fucking shit, he was far too flat and having to stop to take the ball gave the defence the chance to cover, it's nice to see that even top class international centres and wingers can fuck up their timing like that.
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The only thing I find surprising about that it that people seem surprised by him doing it. White was always a cheating c**t and that's absolutely in character for the little weasel.
Of course I also think it's silly from Faf, how could he not know that White was going to make a meal out of the contact, has he never seen him play before?
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Sad news about Eddie Butler.
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Sad news about Eddie Butler.
A great commentator and presenter
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Eddie and Brian Moore made a good team.
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Thoughts on the time wasting penalty in Aus v NZ match?
I saw in interview with John Kirwan, Geoff Wilson and another chap.
They all, basically, agreed that the ref was right, as it is a law, but it was certainly an odd decision.
Kirwan said in all off his time he’d never seen it implemented.
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I think it looks a strange call in a sport where the ref is free to stop the clock whenever he chooses (within reason).
However the ref let them spend 30 seconds celebrating before calling time off and then gave about 4 warnings before giving the scrum.
If you watch it you can see 4-5 aussies telling him to get a move on so they had clearly heard the warning.
All that considered I don't think they can have any complaints even though it's a very unusual one.
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Just started watching NZ v Aus from earlier today in ‘The Bloke Who Knew My Grandfather Cup’.
Aus should have had three binned and one sent off in the first five minutes.
Original dangerous clear out - should have been a bin
Part of same incident, lifting above horizontal and dangerous landing - should have been a red but ref just binned
Deliberate knock on - should have been a bin
Late take out after Barrett’s kick - should have been a bin
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Just started watching NZ v Aus from earlier today in ‘The Bloke Who Knew My Grandfather Cup’.
Aus should have had three binned and one sent off in the first five minutes.
Original dangerous clear out - should have been a bin
Part of same incident, lifting above horizontal and dangerous landing - should have been a red but ref just binned
Deliberate knock on - should have been a bin
Late take out after Barrett’s kick - should have been a bin
Yeah but they are getting their comeuppance now. The AB's are giving them a hiding.
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Easy enough win for England over Fiji in their opening game of the World Cup.
Fiji kept it close in the first half but it always looked like they would run out of steam.
Both NZ and Aus look better at the moment. Ruby Tui for NZ was very impressive.
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England are likely to win the World Cup, but blimey, it’s a hard watch at times.
I haven’t seen so many lineout/rolling maul combos since Lydney v Berry Hill back in the eighties.
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Quarterfinal stage at the WRWC. France twatted Italy in our small hours, and will face the winners of the NZ/Wales game being played now, on ITV if you fancy a watch. A bright start from Wales saw them hold the black ferns to pointless for quarter of an hour, but from the moment Portia Woodman went over for her record-equalling 19th World Cup try, it's been a bit one way. Wales can't get out of their own half. Currently 19-3 after 35 minutes.
England play Australia at 1.30 our time tomorrow , with USA and Canada completing the least eight straight after.
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26-3 at halftime.
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Now 55-3, 10 minutes to go.
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Just watched the Wales v NZ game. Wales stayed in touch for a lot longer that I expected.
How was that late tackle near the end not a red card? The Welsh player picked her opponent up and dropped her on her neck. I thought that the tackler had to place their opponent in order to mitigate down to a yellow.
If England do meet NZ in the final, it’ll be a real contrast of styles. With NZ trying to get the ball to Tui and Woodman, whilst England shove it up their jumper.
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I can only think it wasn't a red because she didn't use her arms to pick her up, she more kind of just stood up whilst still under the kiwi, and rolled her off her shoulders.
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It was quite late though, like you said.
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England team to face Argentina: Steward; Nowell, Tuilagi, Farrell (c), Cokanasiga; Smith, Youngs; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Coles, Hill, Itoje, Curry, B Vunipola.
Replacements: Singleton, M Vunipola, Heyes, Ribbans, Simmonds, Willis, Van Poortvliet, Slade
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I'll never be happy seeing Youngs in and it generally feels like a team picked for the 'fight' rather than to out play them but I don't think that will chnage whilst Jones is here so I'm just going to go with being happy to see Coles get the recognition he deserves for having a fantastic start to the season. Fuck the 6/2 split though, that bullshit needs to stop.
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Just caught up with the semi finals.
Two great games that were far closer than I expected.
England showed that they can use their backs to change up their style of play.
Abby Dow’s second try was something special.
Tough on France, who had a penalty at the death to beat NZ
It’ll be difficult for the final to surpass today’s matches.
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Just caught up with the semi finals.
Two great games that were far closer than I expected.
England showed that they can use their backs to change up their style of play.
Abby Dow’s second try was something special.
Tough on France, who had a penalty at the death to beat NZ
It’ll be difficult for the final to surpass today’s matches.
The french kicker is a far better player than that rank penalty but it was a great show of how much pressure was on her, she'll need some help getting over that because she really should've kicked them into the final.
The England game was close but whilst NZ are ahead of Canada in the rankings they're not the team they were 18 months ago so, right now, I suspect that was the 2 best sides in the world. If England keep their heads I think they win the final by at least 10.
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I don't always enjoy rugby matches as a spectacle but that was some game to watch. Physical, intense and Ireland just managed to get over the line in the end despite having some injuries to key players.
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I don't always enjoy rugby matches as a spectacle but that was some game to watch. Physical, intense and Ireland just managed to get over the line in the end despite having some injuries to key players.
Fair play to Ireland that was a huge effort & well deserved. Wales on the other hand.............
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Just watched the England game after staying away from the score during the Villa game earlier. How much more evidence do the RFU need before Jones gets the boot?
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Just watched the England game after staying away from the score during the Villa game earlier. How much more evidence do the RFU need before Jones gets the boot?
Youngs would never have scored the try that vP did within seconds of coming on.
Since Youngs will never be dropped from the squad, he should be on the bench to use his experience to see games out, with vP starting.
The passing interplay of Genge and Sinckler was great in the first half.
Should have kept both on all games, because Heyes was rubbish and Mako is old and slow.
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Youngs would never have scored the try that vP did within seconds of coming on.
Youngs should be not be in the 23, Raffi Quirke every time for me. You can decide on whether he or vP should start or the bench, the important thing is Youngs should not be there.
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Jones should be under huge pressure now.
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Youngs would never have scored the try that vP did within seconds of coming on.
Youngs should be not be in the 23, Raffi Quirke every time for me. You can decide on whether he or vP should start or the bench, the important thing is Youngs should not be there.
Those 2 and Mitchell are miles ahead of any other English 9s. The problem today was that our only tactic was to front up for the physical battle. It's been his obsession since the world cup and it's killing us.
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Youngs would never have scored the try that vP did within seconds of coming on.
Youngs should be not be in the 23, Raffi Quirke every time for me. You can decide on whether he or vP should start or the bench, the important thing is Youngs should not be there.
Those 2 and Mitchell are miles ahead of any other English 9s. The problem today was that our only tactic was to front up for the physical battle. It's been his obsession since the world cup and it's killing us.
It's almost as if the players and coaching staff care more about winning the odd scrum penalty than actually winning the match
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Youngs would never have scored the try that vP did within seconds of coming on.
Youngs should be not be in the 23, Raffi Quirke every time for me. You can decide on whether he or vP should start or the bench, the important thing is Youngs should not be there.
Those 2 and Mitchell are miles ahead of any other English 9s. The problem today was that our only tactic was to front up for the physical battle. It's been his obsession since the world cup and it's killing us.
It's almost as if the players and coaching staff care more about winning the odd scrum penalty than actually winning the match
It's like he saw the world cup final as a test of his masculinity and decided to make sure it doesn't happen again.
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Finn Russell recalled by Scotland
I suspect that Townsend called John Rutherford to check on his availability first, before realising that he had no option but to bring back Russell.
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Finn Russell recalled by Scotland
I suspect that Townsend called John Rutherford to check on his availability first, before realising that he had no option but to bring back Russell.
It's a really tough one where Russell is concerned. On the pitch and in even ok form he's one of the best 10s in the world. Off the field he's an absolute liability. So do you ignore all the bullshit and accept you need to pick him or do you sideline him as much as possible for the benefit of the overall team dynamic. England had a similar problem with Cipriani but had the benefit of having other options that were good enough to make the decision easier, Scotland don't have that depth.
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I've a couple of spare tickets for England v South Africa at Twickenham 26 Nov KO 17:30. Seats are singles in the Upper West Stand at £75 each face value. Message me if you want one or both.
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Japanese seem to be quite confident of an upset against England.
It would be extremely irritating having to listen to the drivel the Japanese press come out with, so I have to say for maybe the first time ever, 'come on England'.
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Japanese seem to be quite confident of an upset against England.
It would be extremely irritating having to listen to the drivel the Japanese press come out with, so I have to say for maybe the first time ever, 'come on England'.
I won't comment on their chances until our team selection comes out, If he picks a couple of centres and an in-form 9 it will make a huge difference, getting away from the shitty 6-2 split will be a big step in the right direction as well.
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A pretty good final to watch.
A more expansive England to start off, although they understandably reverted to shove-it-up-yer-jumper mode after the sending off*.
This lead to a hattrick of tries for Flight Lieutenant AVFCokayne
England dealt quite well with the extended period of being a player down and NZ ended up finally taking the lead when it was 14 against 14 after their own yellow card.
(* the sending off look correct to me. However, it was a good example of why the 20 minute experiment needs revisiting now that there's more things that can lead to a red card.
Yes, the tackler had to go, but I don't think that the action merited the team being down to 14 for the rest of the game.)
Basically a capacity Villa Park in attendance at the final, which was great to see.
With the next World Cup in England, the 2025 final at Twickenham will smash that record.
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A few other great games today.
A shock win for Italy over Australia and now a close, hard, battle between France and SA (two red cards ….so far)
Earlier I was at a defence-optional 57-33 win by Lydney over Okehampton
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Japanese seem to be quite confident of an upset against England.
It would be extremely irritating having to listen to the drivel the Japanese press come out with, so I have to say for maybe the first time ever, 'come on England'.
Well they were pretty far off on that.
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Japanese seem to be quite confident of an upset against England.
It would be extremely irritating having to listen to the drivel the Japanese press come out with, so I have to say for maybe the first time ever, 'come on England'.
Well they were pretty far off on that.
Haha. Yes. Not a mention of the game on TV this morning.
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Portugal secure the final spot in France 2023 after a 16-16 draw with the USA
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63682229
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Woeful start by England.
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JVP is having a nightmare - he’s so off the pace.
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Which channel is the match on?
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Which channel is the match on?
Amazon
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JVP is having a nightmare - he’s so off the pace.
Im sure he’ll grow into the game.
He has to start these games so he has the experience for the World Cup.
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Which channel is the match on?
Amazon
Thanks
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Ben Youngs on, England suddenly start…
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JVP is having a nightmare - he’s so off the pace.
Im sure he’ll grow into the game.
He has to start these games so he has the experience for the World Cup.
vP was vPoor today, but the real liability was Billy V.
He was a penalty waiting to happen in the first half.
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Why on earth did Youngs kick that away ?
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Fluked a draw
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Fluked a draw
Yeah. Against 16.
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Some come back to be fair.
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Why on earth did Youngs kick that away ?
Because he realised nothing was on and NZ would kick to touch giving England possession again, from which we would score a match saving try.
Pretty insightful if you ask me.
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Woeful first 40.
World beaters last 20.
Jeckyl and Hyde week after week under Jones.
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Last 10 minutes papers over the cracks. Eddie Jones is way past his sell by date
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Last 10 minutes papers over the cracks. Eddie Jones is way past his sell by date
and today is what happens if you play like we did for most the NZ game and then think it's ok because of that 10min spell. He's gotta go, we've gone backwards since the world cup and today got comprehensively beaten by a SA missing a lot of their best players.
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It’s a shambles and we’re still going backwards.
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Combinations just don’t work, Farrell is finished, Smith can’t tackle, Jones should go, there’s plenty of time before the World Cup.
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Special mention to the referee who clearly had it in for a few players, not excusing our poor discipline, but when a shoulder charge happens 2 feet I front of you and you have to go to the TMO for it you do wonder about his ability at any level let alone international.
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Combinations just don’t work, Farrell is finished, Smith can’t tackle, Jones should go, there’s plenty of time before the World Cup.
It’s just the rhetoric about building to the World Cup that pisses me off - there’s no sign of progress, just regression. England are fucking miles off.
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Despite Wales also being mostly poor, they’ve found an absolute star in Jac Morgan.
Probably the best British player at the moment.
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Gatland returning to Wales will massively galvanise them.
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Gatland returning to Wales will massively galvanise them.
I wish we (England) had him.
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According to Kitson, Eddie will be on his way later this week.
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According to Kitson, Eddie will be on his way later this week.
I'm refusing to believe it until it's official, would be too upsetting to have my hopes dashed.
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Steve Borthwick please.
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Jones sacked, now official.
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
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He had to go because it had run its course. Doesn’t change the fact that he had an amazing first couple of years and then a good run at the 2019 World Cup, but since then well below par and the team just has no identity.
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He had to go because it had run its course. Doesn’t change the fact that he had an amazing first couple of years and then a good run at the 2019 World Cup, but since then well below par and the team just has no identity.
exactly, his response to losing in the world cup final set him on this course and we've been well below where we should be with the players available. Him sticking with failing players and refusing to make a decision at 10 (ford and farrell was annoying but by doing it with Smith he's completely undermined him) has had him on the brink for at least 18months so this can't be a massive shock.
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
Someone has mentioned O’Gara, which would be interesting.
I think he’s using that Conor O’Shea is high up at the RFU (is he still there?)
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
Someone has mentioned O’Gara, which would be interesting.
I think he’s using that Conor O’Shea is high up at the RFU (is he still there?)
OGara keeps getting in trouble in France, so he might have had enough of the RFU (equivalent) there; not to mention the massive pay rise.
I cannot think of many obvious candidates so its a reasonable shout.
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O' Gara has signed a new contract with La Rochelle until 2027 according to l'équipe..
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
No to Diamond on 2 counts - (1) There's no chance that the RFU would appoint him for the same reasons the FA did not appoint Clough back in the day and (2) As a Sale fan, his game plan is so 1 dimensional, you only need to look at their improvement under Alex Sanderson and the way in which he has integrated ex academy players into the team and squad. There's also unanswered questions regarding Diamond's abrupt departure from Sale.
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Should get Scott 'Razor' Robertson. Best club coach there is.
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
No to Diamond on 2 counts - (1) There's no chance that the RFU would appoint him for the same reasons the FA did not appoint Clough back in the day and (2) As a Sale fan, his game plan is so 1 dimensional, you only need to look at their improvement under Alex Sanderson and the way in which he has integrated ex academy players into the team and squad. There's also unanswered questions regarding Diamond's abrupt departure from Sale.
I agree that Diamond doesn't play particularly good rugby but with less than a year to form a squad and drill them on how to play I think you need a big character with experience of rebuilding a squad. Rob Baxter would be the other one I'd be looking at, for the same reasons.
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It’s going to be Borthwick.
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
No to Diamond on 2 counts - (1) There's no chance that the RFU would appoint him for the same reasons the FA did not appoint Clough back in the day and (2) As a Sale fan, his game plan is so 1 dimensional, you only need to look at their improvement under Alex Sanderson and the way in which he has integrated ex academy players into the team and squad. There's also unanswered questions regarding Diamond's abrupt departure from Sale.
I agree that Diamond doesn't play particularly good rugby but with less than a year to form a squad and drill them on how to play I think you need a big character with experience of rebuilding a squad. Rob Baxter would be the other one I'd be looking at, for the same reasons.
Given Diamond and Baxter would be short term solutions, who would be your long term choice, Paul?
Borthwick is certainly held in high regard by many in the game and, at 43, fits the bill.
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O' Gara has signed a new contract with La Rochelle until 2027 according to l'équipe..
Yes, just read that.
In the bbc report, he said England had contacted him, so he’s certainly on the radar
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and breathe...
No to Borthwick , I don't think he's ready. I can't think of anyone in the premiership I'd go with but Steve Diamond would be a good option through to the world cup and then look at the options afterwards (at which point people like Borthwick and Lam become more reasonable choices as they have 4 years to grow and build).
No to Diamond on 2 counts - (1) There's no chance that the RFU would appoint him for the same reasons the FA did not appoint Clough back in the day and (2) As a Sale fan, his game plan is so 1 dimensional, you only need to look at their improvement under Alex Sanderson and the way in which he has integrated ex academy players into the team and squad. There's also unanswered questions regarding Diamond's abrupt departure from Sale.
I agree that Diamond doesn't play particularly good rugby but with less than a year to form a squad and drill them on how to play I think you need a big character with experience of rebuilding a squad. Rob Baxter would be the other one I'd be looking at, for the same reasons.
Given Diamond and Baxter would be short term solutions, who would be your long term choice, Paul?
Borthwick is certainly held in high regard by many in the game and, at 43, fits the bill.
Borthwick and Lam are the 2 I'd be looking at but both of them are in a similar situation of having created a very strong 'first' team then seen some key players leave and struggled a bit with getting their 'second' team up to the same level. I think it neds to be someone used to the English game though because the league is in a really good place right now and it'd be a shame to not take advantage of that. Regardless of who gets it I both hope and dread that they create a space for Sam Vesty in the coaching setup because Saints are an incredible attacking team let down by a mess of a front row and all the good running lines and clever plays are on him.
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O' Gara has signed a new contract with La Rochelle until 2027 according to l'équipe..
Yes, just read that.
In the bbc report, he said England had contacted him, so he’s certainly on the radar
I'd take O'Gara but he's another that would be an 'after the world cup not before' appointment in my opinion.
I just think the world cup cycle being how it is means that the best approach is to have 2 years experimenting and blooding young players (and retiring off the older ones) and then 2 years building to the world cup. If that cycle gets broken by a manager leaving/being sacked then personally I think the Brian Ashton style short term option is a better way of galvansing the squad for the tournament. Once it's out of the way you can bring a new man in and it's a lot easier for him to mix things up without the pressure of the world cup right in front of him.
It’s going to be Borthwick.
I'm pretty sure you're right, I just think it's the wrong time for him but we'll see.
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Borthwick it is
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Borthwick it is
With Sinfield as defensive coach.
Don’t know much about him apart from he’s from League.
If he’s half as good as Sean Edwards I’ll be happy
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Borthwick it is
With Sinfield as defensive coach.
Don’t know much about him apart from he’s from League.
If he’s half as good as Sean Edwards I’ll be happy
By all accounts Sinfield was key to them winning the title last year.
I don';t mind Borthwick but I do worry that the timing of this means he has about a month to sort out the coaching setup and pick a 6nations squad before 3 summer matches ahead of the world cup. 8 games isn't a lot of time for him to try much out so I think he'll have no choice but to go with pretty much the same unbalanced squad that Jones kept going to but with maybe 1-2 changes.
Aside from that I'm not a fan of taking someone from a league club mid-season because of the inevitable temptation to show loyalty to 'your' players and flood the squad from your old club. Given how Tigers and Sarries heavy the squad is anyway I don't really want to see 3-4 more tigers in there.
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Borthwick it is
With Sinfield as defensive coach.
Don’t know much about him apart from he’s from League.
If he’s half as good as Sean Edwards I’ll be happy
By all accounts Sinfield was key to them winning the title last year.
I don';t mind Borthwick but I do worry that the timing of this means he has about a month to sort out the coaching setup and pick a 6nations squad before 3 summer matches ahead of the world cup. 8 games isn't a lot of time for him to try much out so I think he'll have no choice but to go with pretty much the same unbalanced squad that Jones kept going to but with maybe 1-2 changes.
Aside from that I'm not a fan of taking someone from a league club mid-season because of the inevitable temptation to show loyalty to 'your' players and flood the squad from your old club. Given how Tigers and Sarries heavy the squad is anyway I don't really want to see 3-4 more tigers in there.
I’d heard he was bringing the coaching staff from Leicester, so that side might be pretty much sorted
I think a good starting point would be to select players in their natural position.
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Selecting Farrell as captain is a mistake from Borthwick. You can argue the merits of selecting him, but picking him as captain means he has to play. So you’re either saying Smith won’t play or Farrell plays in the centres, which just doesn’t feel right now.
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Selecting Farrell as captain is a mistake from Borthwick. You can argue the merits of selecting him, but picking him as captain means he has to play. So you’re either saying Smith won’t play or Farrell plays in the centres, which just doesn’t feel right now.
I agree, I just hope that Farrell, along with 2-3 others, have been kept as a leadership group whilst he settles others into the squad and we'll see them phased out. I doubt it'll be before the world cup though.
Either way there's still a decent chance Farrell doesn't start the first game at least because he won't have played for the best part of a month. He's actually very lucky to not have had a longer ban and to get 1 game dropped off with an awareness course, when you've made as many high tackles in your career as he has, to the point where it's become a meme, then it's weird to get that sort of leniency.
Oh and quick edit, Lawes is the obvious choice as captain for me (and first name on the team sheet).
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Eddie Jones new Australia head coach
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Interesting that Marchant starts and Tuilagi isn’t in the squad.
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I'm mostly happy with the team but Farrell at 12 and Youngs on the bench bothers me still and I can't get behind how many tigers players are in given they've had a fucking awful season. This is the problem of changing coach so late, he just doesn't have time to reshape the squad.
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Ireland leading 27-3
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Ireland leading 27-3
I was a bit nervous about this one beforehand but Wales have been very poor.
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Ireland leading 27-3
I was a bit nervous about this one beforehand but Wales have been very poor.
I predicted (at my club) that Wales could finish bottom this 6N, they look in a lot of trouble. Ireland on the other hand should be one of the 4-5 in the mix to win the world cup.
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Good game so far but what the fuck was Dombrandt doing in defence for their 2nd? I'd be embarrassed to get done like that and I'm 43 and playing in the 9th tier.
Aside from that things are going about as I'd expect, looking a bit disjointed with new coaching and a few players who look like they're only in to keep some continuity. I reckon the team for next years 6N will look very different to this.
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Ireland leading 27-3
I was a bit nervous about this one beforehand but Wales have been very poor.
I predicted (at my club) that Wales could finish bottom this 6N, they look in a lot of trouble. Ireland on the other hand should be one of the 4-5 in the mix to win the world cup.
We'll know more next week after France, and then the Grand Slam decider against England on Paddy's weekend. :)
Very happy with a BP win in Cardiff no matter how poor they are given our recent record there.
Enjoying the Scotland-England game so far.
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Ireland leading 27-3
I was a bit nervous about this one beforehand but Wales have been very poor.
I predicted (at my club) that Wales could finish bottom this 6N, they look in a lot of trouble. Ireland on the other hand should be one of the 4-5 in the mix to win the world cup.
We'll know more next week after France, and then the Grand Slam decider against England on Paddy's weekend. :)
Very happy with a BP win in Cardiff no matter how poor they are given our recent record there.
Enjoying the Scotland-England game so far.
Of course, I think this will be the tightest 6N for years though, Italy look a much better side than they have for a while and everyone else looks like they can give anyone a game, except the welsh.
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Oh dear.
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Oh dear.
Our attacking play has fallen apart since Youngs came on, everything is just too slow. I'm also not sure why you'd kick back like he did against a team that have shown they want to run it back every chance they get.
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England’s start to the 6 Nations has been woeful for years now.
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Fair play to Scotland, real quality and composure but again it’s weak from England.
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If anyone wants to know why I dislike Ben Youngs so much compare the speed of the breakdown between him and JVP today. For the last 20 minutes we might as well have been giving them tackle drills in training, it was slow, predictable and too deep from the line so they just knocked us back on the gainline time and again until he box kicked it away or we gave away a penalty. We really need to move on from him because he's a fucking relic of a game that hasn't been played at the highest level of international rugby for years.
The Villa defeat annoyed me earlier but I could see things to be positive about. This hurt a lot more because we've changed coach but the same problems are there and I see no way they'll be addressed before the world cup.
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I still think there’s been some erroneous decision making he needs to learn from. You can debate the merits of Farrell and he’s had some fantastic games for England, but making him captain has boxed Borthwick into a corner. If he thinks Smith should be 10 then Farrell should be on the bench, if he thinks Farrell should start he should be a 10. The combination is just unbalanced.
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I still think there’s been some erroneous decision making he needs to learn from. You can debate the merits of Farrell and he’s had some fantastic games for England, but making him captain has boxed Borthwick into a corner. If he thinks Smith should be 10 then Farrell should be on the bench, if he thinks Farrell should start he should be a 10. The combination is just unbalanced.
That's one of the problems. We need to have a proper plan for the 10, 12 and 13 positions because right now that area of the field is a fucking mess. Jones created the problem but Borthwick needs to come up with a solution and quick.
Then you've got 9 (which has been my bugbear with England for years) where Youngs having the amount of caps he has is a good indicator of why England have been poor for years, the odd decent box kick and a break round the fringe every few games isn't enough to keep him in the side but after years of allowing just that he's now about the only experienced option we have so he gets picked by default. If he played for almost any other club in English rugby he'd have about 5 caps, he should've been taken out of the side about the same time his brother was when he proved to be well below international quality. Ben mostly got the look in he did by standing on the shoulders of midgets like Wigglesworth and Care (and Care was a far better player even though he wasn't good enough for international rugby either).
I'm also not convinced by Malins as a winger. I know he scored twice and has huge talent but his decision making and positioning looks like someone who's being played out of position and it hurts us, I think he was really poor for the first scotland try for example, wanted to hang around on the blindside despite there being loads of cover there and Steward being on the floor meaning we had no full back, made the decision for them to a kick through a very simple one and it didn't need to be a particularly good kick, just needed to stay in play and they were scoring.
The backrow was a bit of a mess as well, Curry was uncharacteristically poor in defence and Dombrandt looked unfit and out of his depth.
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Borthwick is an average coach, coaching one of the largest institutions in the world. Why are we unable to get world class coaches? Jones was good a while ago and I don't really mean him but why did we not go for Gatland?
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I think it’s a bit unfair to class Borthwick as an average coach. He did a remarkable job at Leicester, but he’s obviously unproven in the long-term or international level. I don’t mind him being hired, but like anyone he will need to be aware of his own errors and be prepared to correct them.
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Very unfair, he's a very well regarded coach. The problem he has is one of timing, like it or not he's going to be judged on the world cup which means he has 8 games in total to put together a team to be competitive. That means he's going to have to go for small changes to what Jones was doing rather than building from scratch over time.
If he gets through this without having his reputation shredded then the team he picks this time next year will be interesting.
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Just a couple of observations on yesterday’s debacle.
1: Farrell offers nothing.
2: Youngs is shit.
3: Mitchell should be scrum half. His tempo would have been immense the last 20.
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Just a couple of observations on yesterday’s debacle.
1: Farrell offers nothing.
2: Youngs is shit.
3: Mitchell should be scrum half. His tempo would have been immense the last 20.
4. Dombrandt isn't the 8 we're looking for.
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Just a couple of observations on yesterday’s debacle.
1: Farrell offers nothing.
2: Youngs is shit.
3: Mitchell should be scrum half. His tempo would have been immense the last 20.
4. Dombrandt isn't the 8 we're looking for.
He ran a few good angles that was about it.
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I think it’s a bit unfair to class Borthwick as an average coach. He did a remarkable job at Leicester, but he’s obviously unproven in the long-term or international level. I don’t mind him being hired, but like anyone he will need to be aware of his own errors and be prepared to correct them.
Ok, not up to international level. Great club coach but sometimes the two don't marry up. Hopefully, he proves me wrong.
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You might ultimately be right or wrong, it is way too early to make an assessment after 1 game. He does need to extricate from is Farrell as captain, but I fear the resolution will be Smith being a sub.
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Good game so far but what the fuck was Dombrandt doing in defence for their 2nd? I'd be embarrassed to get done like that and I'm 43 and playing in the 9th tier.
Aside from that things are going about as I'd expect, looking a bit disjointed with new coaching and a few players who look like they're only in to keep some continuity. I reckon the team for next years 6N will look very different to this.
If he’d have gone for legs VDM would have gone over anyway, so I guess he was trying to get his arms around to wrap him up, but hadn’t the speed to get close enough.
Looked embarrassing, but one of those that looks a lot worse than it actually was.
I’d be more concerned at the channel tunnel sized gap VDM went through at the start.
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Borthwick is an average coach, coaching one of the largest institutions in the world. Why are we unable to get world class coaches? Jones was good a while ago and I don't really mean him but why did we not go for Gatland?
Gatland was always going back to Wales.
Would have been nice, but a non starter.
I mentioned earlier in this thread that Andy Farrell would have been a decent choice.
Borthwick has had one game, let’s give the guy a chance.
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The backrow was a bit of a mess as well, Curry was uncharacteristically poor in defence and Dombrandt looked unfit and out of his depth.
It was a different Curry playing than normal, I think
Ben, rather than Tom
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Borthwick has done the right thing and dropped Youngs for the weekend, hopefully that's a big step in the right direction.
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But Farrell remains. Genge should have been captain, he's about the most in form player we have just now.
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Borthwick has done the right thing and dropped Youngs for the weekend, hopefully that's a big step in the right direction.
Just read that.
Have to admit I had a little laugh as I immediately thought of you 😂
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But Farrell remains. Genge should have been captain, he's about the most in form player we have just now.
Well he’s not going to change his captain after one game. Right or wrong he’s got to stick with it for the 6 Nations.
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Wales have binned AWJ and Tipuric completely. Faletau only makes the bench
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Conor Murray might not play against France as his Dad was hit by a truck whilst out cycling this afternoon and is in a pretty bad way in hospital.
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This is shaping up to be an absolute cracker
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This is shaping up to be an absolute cracker
Yep, pretty tasty so far.
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Ireland not clinical enough. How on earth did Dupont stop the try earlier?
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Ireland not clinical enough. How on earth did Dupont stop the try earlier?
Dupont is ridiculous, probably the best player in the world right now.
Some of the offloading in this game is beautiful to watch.
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Six points up atm but not feeling that confident.
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Six points up atm but not feeling that confident.
France are well on top this half.
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Six points up atm but not feeling that confident.
France are well on top this half.
Agreed.
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Phew
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That should seal it
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Casey turned the game, the extra pace at the breakdown has really hurt the big french pack.
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A great game of rugby that.
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Forward pass? Anybody? No?
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Don’t think Scotland are going to implode today.
Wales are obviously saving themselves for England
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In the second half Russell has been outstanding.
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Great try for Scotland.
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In the second half Russell has been outstanding.
He's been the best 10 in Europe for a few years and the rest of the scottish backline has caught on to it now.
The whole team is setup to create space for him now.
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Another try
The Welsh all seemed to have eyes on VdM so the miss pass was easy
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Just seen the Lowe try again, and again.
Brilliant finish that deserved to be a try, but the more I see it the more convinced I am that his foot touched the ground before the ball.
Even he grimaced when he saw the footage from behind.
They are in with a real shout of the World Cup this time
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How flippin’ good is Jack Willis?
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Great stuff from England.
We look to have, at last, a proper 12/13 partnership in Lawrence and Slade.
Farrell is back in his best position and showing he’s probably our best 10
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Jamie George 100% line out
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Yeah it was a bit stodgy, but Italy have much more about them now and given that England are building from scratch it’s a decent result.
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Just seen the Lowe try again, and again.
Brilliant finish that deserved to be a try, but the more I see it the more convinced I am that his foot touched the ground before the ball.
Even he grimaced when he saw the footage from behind.
They are in with a real shout of the World Cup this time
I suspected his foot was out at the time and having seen the photos today it very likely was, so got away with one there.
As for the World Cup, we'll f*ck it up, we always do. I'm expecting us to go out in the quarters to either New Zealand or France and maintain our record of never getting to a semi-final. Anything else is a bonus but we'd have a decent shot of making the final if we got through that one.
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Great stuff from England.
We look to have, at last, a proper 12/13 partnership in Lawrence and Slade.
Farrell is back in his best position and showing he’s probably our best 10
I found Farrell constantly kicking away possession in the Italian 22 quite tedious to be honest
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Yeah it feels like it’s a specific tactic, which is odd.
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Yeah it feels like it’s a specific tactic, which is odd.
For me the Italian defence were up pretty sharpish, so instead of getting wrapped up going nowhere, a kick behind keeps them pegged back with either a line out or a drop out.
One of the pundits was saying that with the drop outs now from the try line it’s an easy way of the attacking team regaining possession in a good position.
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Forward pass? Anybody? No?
Forward pass, in touch and ball touched down on the line but yeah give it to ireland, it is their turn.
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I may have been out drinking a lot and watching the game with a big group of rugby players yesterday and been pretty quiet.
Some thoughts, good stuff first:
JVP and Mitchell showed exactly why Ben Youngs shouldn't be anywhere near the squad, Mitch in particular put in as good a subs appearance as I've seen from a 9 in a long time. I'd be happy rotating between the 2 for starter and sub for now.
Willis and Ludlam were superb, the shirts should be theirs for now, we have some great depth in the back row.
Genge, Chessum and Itoje were also superb. George was the best I've seen him for England for a while as well.
Arundell is a special talent who we should be building around after the world cup. In the meantime he should be given gametime for experience and to be a bit of a wildcard in the world cup.
a proper pairing in the centres helped massively, Lawrence was given a very basic crash running role but just that was enough to make a big difference.
The bad:
I have no idea why we went back to something that doesn't work by bringing Smith on for Slade, we lost all shape once we made that change and it was only because of Mitchell that we had any threat.
Steward was, yet again, pretty disappointing. He's a good prospect and I know the Tigers-centric rugby community have anointed him the next big thing but, for me, his position is far more secure than it should be right now because he's been ropey in the autumn and these 2 games.
Cole and Mako are past it, both are solid in the scrum but just haven't got the legs in open play, we were effectively playing with 13 men once they were on.
Dombrandt doesn't do enough for me, he's a good club player but I think the step up in intensity is overwhelming him right now.
Sinkler was hit and miss, we really need to find some more depth at prop.
I'm unconvinced with Hassell-Collins and Malins as the wingers, both are good try scorers at club level but the jury is out on them for me.
Some of the subs seemed to have nothing to do with what was happening on the field, taking Genge and Willis off when he did was insane, they were probably the 2 best players on the pitch at the time.
I know that seems pretty grumpy but in general I think it was the best we've played for a while (in the first half at least) but most of the subs had a pretty negative impact on us and the outside backs didn't quite work. If we can fix at least some of these problems the world cup draw is stacked nicely for us to be looking to at least make the semi-final. I've seen comments about the result papering over the cracks but I think that's the exact opposite of what happened, I think it showed that we need to fix those cracks but have the basis of a very strong squad.
Moving on the Lowe try should never have stood, terrible decision from the officials, but it was such a great finish that I don't mind as much as I normally would. The Irish defence in the 2nd half was exceptional and they fully deserved the win, very interesting to watch was the use of the 50-22 rule to get regular territorial gains, France will have to look at that because they were badly exposed. Dupont was fucking immense again though, a genuine generational talent. The offloading from Doris was special.
Wales are in big trouble, they'll clearly pick things up against England as they always do but I wouldn't be surprised to see them finish bottom, to be in such a mess in a world cup year is ridiculous and shows just how poor a choice Pivac was. Gatland might turn things around a bit I'm just not sure the players are there right now for a major improvement.
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After the game, Woodward made the same point as you (re the subs); why take off players who are playing well just to bring on inferior replacements?
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Wales vrs England
I shouldn’t be concerned, but I just know Wales are going to morph into World beaters today!!
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Poor kicking from Farrell. That was a key kick, missed.
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Good win England. Well done.
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Good result but lots of work to be done still.
Mitchell coming on made a big difference, our tempo went up a notch and they couldn't cope with it.
Farrell had an awful day, JVP wasn't great either. Bringing 3 players on for the last play was shit.
I want Borthwick to do well but he needs to stop relying on his old Tigers players so much.
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Good result but lots of work to be done still.
Mitchell coming on made a big difference, our tempo went up a notch and they couldn't cope with it.
Farrell had an awful day, JVP wasn't great either. Bringing 3 players on for the last play was shit.
I want Borthwick to do well but he needs to stop relying on his old Tigers players so much.
My next door neighbour Dan Cole is one of those Leicester players.
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Lack of ideas from Wales, as they kept kicking the ball to Steward.
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Lack of ideas from Wales, as they kept kicking the ball to Steward.
Steward was brilliant today, he’s so good under the high ball, so I couldn’t understand Wales doing it.
Thought England were very good, apart from Farrells kicking. Bit of a one off? Could have been a worry in a closer game.
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Red card for Gilchrist
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Red card for Gilchrist
Clear red, players have to know better than that now. The only problem is how long it took for anyone to notice. Fair play to the medic for sticking to it.
And now a fucking stupid challenge from france has evened up the numbers, what a moron.
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What a match that turned out to be.
Fickou is an incredible player, goes under the radar a bit but he was superb today.
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Lack of ideas from Wales, as they kept kicking the ball to Steward.
Steward was brilliant today, he’s so good under the high ball, so I couldn’t understand Wales doing it.
Thought England were very good, apart from Farrells kicking. Bit of a one off? Could have been a worry in a closer game.
I wouldn’t worry about Farrell’s kicking he’s good an excellent history from the tee. What would worry me more is that he didn’t sense that the need for England to go for the kill between 50-70. They should have upped the tempo and attacking intent there. It worked out this time, but they were overly conservative in that phase - it gets a pass because it’s only Borthwick’s third game but that won’t be acceptable for long.
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Lack of ideas from Wales, as they kept kicking the ball to Steward.
Steward was brilliant today, he’s so good under the high ball, so I couldn’t understand Wales doing it.
Thought England were very good, apart from Farrells kicking. Bit of a one off? Could have been a worry in a closer game.
I wouldn’t worry about Farrell’s kicking he’s good an excellent history from the tee. What would worry me more is that he didn’t sense that the need for England to go for the kill between 50-70. They should have upped the tempo and attacking intent there. It worked out this time, but they were overly conservative in that phase - it gets a pass because it’s only Borthwick’s third game but that won’t be acceptable for long.
I agree, the brave choice would've been Mitchell, Smith and Arundell on after about 55mins for JVP, Farrell and Malins to add pace and play a more expansive game to push for the 4 try bonus point win, instead we went the other way and killed the game. It worked against a poor Welsh team who could easily finish bottom but I hope we realise we need to be more aggressive against the best sides.
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Huge call from Borthwick, he’s now completely opened up selection moving forward.
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Huge call from Borthwick, he’s now completely opened up selection moving forward.
I just hope Smith and Lawrence click now. We need to move on and I'd hate for us mess it up at the first hurdle.
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I had a feeling England might beat France at the weekend, I'm now sure of it. England by 8.
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Very tough call on Italy, guy drops the ball just over the line having been tackled by a guy coming from behind him. If the ruck was formed it's a penalty try and probably a yellow card but the ref decided it wasn't a ruck. Right on the edge for me (but I think there was an Italian over the tackle when the ball left the ground) and the Italians can feel very hard done by.
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Wales leading 22-3 at halftime but they've had 3 big calls go in their favour.
Aside from the above, giving a yellow card and a penalty try for collapsing a maul is very harsh.
Then just before half time Wales gave 3 different penalties at mauls a little further from the line and instead of stopping the play to give a yellow card he let it go and then reversed the try for a tackle in the air after the Italians gambled with a cross-field kick.
The other problem here is a welsh commentator and 2 welsh pundits in the studio means that none of this will be discussed. For England they generally go out of their way to bring someone in for 'balance' but that never happens for Wales.
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Piss poor start from England, some really terrible decision making so far, JVP looks totally out of his depth. Ref has been very harsh though, 2-3 penalties given for things that you see let go in most games.
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With the resources and funding the RFU has, to be this far away in terms of quality, discipline and organisation from France is shameful
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This could easily be a 50 point game if this keeps up. Piss poor.
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Absolute shambles. Too many basic errors, too many penalties.
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The bookies had this as a 50/50 type game before it kicked off. 5/6 on France looks the value bet of the century now
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With the resources and funding the RFU has, to be this far away in terms of quality, discipline and organisation from France is shameful
A big part of it is the hangover from keeping Jones for 18months too long but on top of that some of the changes Borthwick has pushed haven't worked. JVP and Dombrandt have been really poor today.
All that said, we've been pathetic at the breakdown which has made it easy for them to turnover the ball and easy for the ref to favour them with penalties, etc.
I hope this isn't used as an excuse to bin Smith and bring Farrell back in because none of our problems have come from our 10 and it's very hard to run a game from there when your 8 and 9 are the 2 worst players on the pitch.
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Mitchell on and England are a completely different team, this is much better.
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Outclassed. The French are a very good team
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A rabble. Ireland will top this score next week.
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A rabble. Ireland will top this score next week.
Let's see how we get on against Scotland first, and surely we'll see a reaction from England next week after that sorry display.
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A rabble. Ireland will top this score next week.
I don't think so, they'll win but I don't think Ireland are as ruthless as France were today.
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I know very little about rugby other than I like to watch it but Dombrandt, what's the point?
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Haven’t watched any rugby at all since Worcester went bump as disillusioned with it until today but lasted less than hour into this game before switching back to the football…if this is truly the best England have to offer it’ll be a short World Cup - poor
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Apparently England’s worst ever result at home.
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A rabble. Ireland will top this score next week.
Let's see how we get on against Scotland first, and surely we'll see a reaction from England next week after that sorry display.
I don't think this set of England players have "a reaction" in them in all honesty
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A rabble. Ireland will top this score next week.
Let's see how we get on against Scotland first, and surely we'll see a reaction from England next week after that sorry display.
I don't think this set of England players have "a reaction" in them in all honesty
The way our midfield jogged about with 20 to go and not a care in the world I’d say that’s spot on.
‘They’re a well coached team’ was a telling post match comment and a not very guarded dig at Borthwick I’d say.
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It was astonishingly bad, just every facet of the game was awful. But the lack of intensity, strength, and dynamism was remarkable. To a man they were woeful. I don’t think I’ve seen many poorer displays than JVP put in. This better be the nadir.
Well done France, exceptionally clinical against a pitiful side.
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I know very little about rugby other than I like to watch it but Dombrandt, what's the point?
I don’t rate Dombrant at Test level at all.
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I don't consider myself an expert but that full back everyone was praising last week looked slow as shit
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I know very little about rugby other than I like to watch it but Dombrandt, what's the point?
I don’t rate Dombrant at Test level at all.
Nope, first half I didn't think England were that bad but 8 and 9 just wasn't working and we were soft at the breakdown. 2nd half we had a little rally when Mitchell came on and started getting the ball away from the breakdown quicker but once Lawrence went off we looked like a team that had given up.
When Mitchell went quick with a penalty towards the end and opened them up it was shameful how little support went with him.
The positive (twisted as it may seem) is that at least Borthwick must now know that he isn't building a team for the world cup this season and instead he can focus on building for the one after. With 1 game left this 6N is dead but I'd hope the summer tests see us start building that group. We not in as bad a state as Wales but Ireland and France have left us behind and we're in danger of losing touch with Scotland as well, which should be unthinkable really (given the difference in resources and where the 2 sides were 4 years ago).
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I don't consider myself an expert but that full back everyone was praising last week looked slow as shit
I think they all looked slow and shit, and it’s either fitness - which I doubt - or a manifestation of letting an exceptional team have the ball too much and then they were just battering them down. If you want to compete you can’t give the opposition the ball all the time.
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I don't consider myself an expert but that full back everyone was praising last week looked slow as shit
I think they all looked slow and shit, and it’s either fitness - which I doubt - or a manifestation of letting an exceptional team have the ball too much and then they were just battering them down. If you want to compete you can’t give the opposition the ball all the time.
I like Steward, he's fantastic under the high ball, a good defender and a decent finisher. I don't think the 3 we had works though. Malins would be top of the list to replace for me, he's a good player but I don't think he's explosive enough to be a winger. I'm not sure who should play though, we have lots of very good club level wingers but I'm not convinced by many of them at test level. I think I'd go with Steward, Freeman and Watson for now, with Arundell to come through and I'd keep an eye on Radwan as well. I think that 5 is the best options in the backfield for us right now. If cokanasiga can stay fit he's worth a look as something completely different as well.
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On the positive side, anyone suffering from Imposter syndrome will at least have the fact that however bad it gets they will never be as entirely unsuited for a job as Alex Dombrandt was at outside centre.
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France were very good, but, by fck England were poor
Embarrassing
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Only just got round to watching the game…….wow.
There’s enough English players available to drop the whole lot of them for next weekend……apart from Mitchell
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Malins is the absolute epitome of a good club player, but not good enough to be a Test player. You need dynamism and/or pace to be an international winger.
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Haven’t watched any rugby at all since Worcester went bump as disillusioned with it until today but lasted less than hour into this game before switching back to the football…if this is truly the best England have to offer it’ll be a short World Cup - poor
This is exactly what I did too Gareth and watching Man City is like watching paint dry. Comes to something when that game was the preferable option.
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Haven’t watched any rugby at all since Worcester went bump as disillusioned with it until today but lasted less than hour into this game before switching back to the football…if this is truly the best England have to offer it’ll be a short World Cup - poor
This is exactly what I did too Gareth and watching Man City is like watching paint dry. Comes to something when that game was the preferable option.
Exactly! City are the most boring team to watch but that England team was dreadful - as others have said Dombrandt, what the hell…he was a beast in the age group teams but surely that effort yesterday wasn’t reflective of his adult abilities?
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The one big positive Dombrandt has is that his offloading game is fantastic, but we play in a way that doesn't particularly encourage playing it. Without that he's just not mobile enough for international rugby.
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Ireland are going to obliterate us.
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Ireland are going to obliterate us.
No chickens being counted over here. I was at the delayed 2001 game where we stopped England doing the Grand Slam and I'm sure England would happily repay the favour, plus there are going to be plenty of casualties after today. Wasn't feeling too confident during the first 15 mins of the second half but they ground out the win in difficult circumstances.
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England are too far off tactically and from a physicality point of view to upset the Irish.
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England May have their moments but Ireland will be easy winners.
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Ireland are going to obliterate us.
No chickens being counted over here. I was at the delayed 2001 game where we stopped England doing the Grand Slam and I'm sure England would happily repay the favour, plus there are going to be plenty of casualties after today. Wasn't feeling too confident during the first 15 mins of the second half but they ground out the win in difficult circumstances.
Yep, I'm not a rugby guy at all, but I keep an eye on Ireland because my family over are into it, and one thing I've learnt is that you can seldom trust them.
Ireland stopped England getting the GS in the final game in about 2017, IIRC? And that was pretty fun. I'm sure England will be keen to do the same, particularly after a bad result this weekend.
I think, if Ireland were to face any of the five to decide the GS, England would be my last choice, regardless of form.
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Ireland are going to obliterate us.
No chickens being counted over here. I was at the delayed 2001 game where we stopped England doing the Grand Slam and I'm sure England would happily repay the favour, plus there are going to be plenty of casualties after today. Wasn't feeling too confident during the first 15 mins of the second half but they ground out the win in difficult circumstances.
Yep, I'm not a rugby guy at all, but I keep an eye on Ireland because my family over are into it, and one thing I've learnt is that you can seldom trust them.
Ireland stopped England getting the GS in the final game in about 2017, IIRC? And that was pretty fun. I'm sure England will be keen to do the same, particularly after a bad result this weekend.
I think, if Ireland were to face any of the five to decide the GS, England would be my last choice, regardless of form.
I think we've just been following Villa and Ireland for too long although like Villa, Ireland now appear to have the right coach in place. As an interested observer who's never played the game, I'm happy to read the thoughts and defer to the knowledge of those here that have.
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I think the physicality of the Irish team will blow this England squad away in my opinion. England suffered from Jones spending 3 years trying to prove his team could match up to the 2019 SA team instead of trying to work out how to approach 2023. That's blown up in our faces and we're scrambling around trying to find anything to give us optimism for the world cup but with nowhere near the time needed to develop anything.
This is why I thought Borthwick, or similar, should've been an after the world cup appointment and we should've gone a bit more short-term in the meantime so it was a clean break. Saturday wasn't a one-off, it's the culmination of years of poor decisions being made by England.
With the mess the domestic game is in (financially) there needs to be a big rethink at the RFU, if nothing else to work out what to do about the amount of English players now playing in France.
EDIT to add an example, Dombrandt being in the team because Simmonds is moving to France and Mercer is currently playing in France makes us a lot weaker in that position than we should be, that needs to be addressed.
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Apparently, Mercer has been outstanding in the last eighteen months.
Simmonds is out of the squad for Saturday.
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Apparently, Mercer has been outstanding in the last eighteen months.
Simmonds is out of the squad for Saturday.
Mercer is one of the best 8s in the french league, right up there with Alldritt not having him available for selection is just silly.
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Wasn't he voted player of the year last season?
In other news, Ollie Chessum is out for the w/end.
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Wasn't he voted player of the year last season?
In other news, Ollie Chessum is out for the w/end.
He was indeed, as I say he's one of the best in what is the strongest league in the world. Given the sheer number of players moving from England to France right now we're weakening ourselves massively by not including them. Aside from anything having players who are familiar with the strengths of french rugby would help us, much like it helps many countries to have football players in the English and Spanish leagues.
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Yes the benefits of access to players aren’t really translating at the moment.
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We'll find out later but the strong rumours from training are that there will be 3 changes for England with Tuilagi and Ribbans coming in for injuries to Lawrence and Chessum and the only other change being Farrell back in for Smith who might not even make the bench.
In my view when you take a hammering like we did, and at a time so close to a world cup, you can either look back and try to recreate something that has worked in the past or you gamble a little and plan for the future. For me a coach who is going to be judged more on 2027 than 2023 should be looking forward so I'll be very upset if this is the way things go.
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We'll find out later but the strong rumours from training are that there will be 3 changes for England with Tuilagi and Ribbans coming in for injuries to Lawrence and Chessum and the only other change being Farrell back in for Smith who might not even make the bench.
In my view when you take a hammering like we did, and at a time so close to a world cup, you can either look back and try to recreate something that has worked in the past or you gamble a little and plan for the future. For me a coach who is going to be judged more on 2027 than 2023 should be looking forward so I'll be very upset if this is the way things go.
Smith benched, Farrell starts. Pointless change.
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We'll find out later but the strong rumours from training are that there will be 3 changes for England with Tuilagi and Ribbans coming in for injuries to Lawrence and Chessum and the only other change being Farrell back in for Smith who might not even make the bench.
In my view when you take a hammering like we did, and at a time so close to a world cup, you can either look back and try to recreate something that has worked in the past or you gamble a little and plan for the future. For me a coach who is going to be judged more on 2027 than 2023 should be looking forward so I'll be very upset if this is the way things go.
Smith benched, Farrell starts. Pointless change.
Not a shock though, I figured as soon as he dropped Farrell that it wouldn't take much to bring him back. My biggest problem with it is that Smith has been singled out, he was nowhere near the biggest problem but people like Van Poorfliet, Dombrandt and Malins keep their places and he doesn't. JVP I'd keep around because I rate him but he had a shocker, the other 2 are nowhere near good enough and cannot be realistically considered the the best player in that position in England, I'd struggle to putdombrandt top 3 and I reckon I could find 7-8 wingers to put ahead of Malins pretty easily.
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A combined fly half of Dan Carter and Jonny Wilkinson would have looked poor against France, given how horrifically the pack played.
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We'll find out later but the strong rumours from training are that there will be 3 changes for England with Tuilagi and Ribbans coming in for injuries to Lawrence and Chessum and the only other change being Farrell back in for Smith who might not even make the bench.
In my view when you take a hammering like we did, and at a time so close to a world cup, you can either look back and try to recreate something that has worked in the past or you gamble a little and plan for the future. For me a coach who is going to be judged more on 2027 than 2023 should be looking forward so I'll be very upset if this is the way things go.
Smith benched, Farrell starts. Pointless change.
Not a shock though, I figured as soon as he dropped Farrell that it wouldn't take much to bring him back. My biggest problem with it is that Smith has been singled out, he was nowhere near the biggest problem but people like Van Poorfliet, Dombrandt and Malins keep their places and he doesn't. JVP I'd keep around because I rate him but he had a shocker, the other 2 are nowhere near good enough and cannot be realistically considered the the best player in that position in England, I'd struggle to putdombrandt top 3 and I reckon I could find 7-8 wingers to put ahead of Malins pretty easily.
Malins is out
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We'll find out later but the strong rumours from training are that there will be 3 changes for England with Tuilagi and Ribbans coming in for injuries to Lawrence and Chessum and the only other change being Farrell back in for Smith who might not even make the bench.
In my view when you take a hammering like we did, and at a time so close to a world cup, you can either look back and try to recreate something that has worked in the past or you gamble a little and plan for the future. For me a coach who is going to be judged more on 2027 than 2023 should be looking forward so I'll be very upset if this is the way things go.
Smith benched, Farrell starts. Pointless change.
Not a shock though, I figured as soon as he dropped Farrell that it wouldn't take much to bring him back. My biggest problem with it is that Smith has been singled out, he was nowhere near the biggest problem but people like Van Poorfliet, Dombrandt and Malins keep their places and he doesn't. JVP I'd keep around because I rate him but he had a shocker, the other 2 are nowhere near good enough and cannot be realistically considered the the best player in that position in England, I'd struggle to putdombrandt top 3 and I reckon I could find 7-8 wingers to put ahead of Malins pretty easily.
Malins is out
He is, I was sure I saw him named earlier, but Arundell starting is a big step in the right direction. I wonder if the one i saw was someone posting the leaked team by mistake. No matter, hopefully it's the last time we see Malins on the wing. I can accept him as an option covering fullback (but still a bit of a way down the list) or a utility back but he's not a winger.
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I’m not sure Smith has been singled out as such. After last week I do understand why you’d want Farrell on from the start. In the short-term they need as much leadership on the pitch as they can get. There’s every chance that even if England play ok they’ll get pumped, I’m not sure that helps Smith at this stage.
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I’m not sure Smith has been singled out as such. After last week I do understand why you’d want Farrell on from the start. In the short-term they need as much leadership on the pitch as they can get. There’s every chance that even if England play ok they’ll get pumped, I’m not sure that helps Smith at this stage.
I can see the logic there but I think it's more damaging to him to:
Play him but with Farrell babysitting at 12
Drop him
Give him 8 minutes and 30 seconds as sub in the next 2
Release him to his club where he puts in a man of the match performance
Pick him to start with a proper centre pairing but bring his babysitter back just after halftime
Drop him again
Borthwick really needs to make a decision on this because how he's handled Smith and Farrell in this 6N has been utter bullshit and doesn't help either of them.
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Not much detente being shown in this house at the moment. C'mon England.
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England have been much better but they’re still to ill disciplined and I do wonder about fitness.
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And there you go.
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That's a shocking red card decision to be honest, I don't think it was even a penalty, let alone a sending off. I've got a lot of respect for BoD but his explanation is bullshit, both players have a duty of care, not just Steward. Keenan choosing to pick up the ball after shaping to kick it was putting himself into a dangerous position and meant there was nothing Steward could do to avoid making contact with his head. However you look at it he's bought a red card with his own stupidity. Yes Keenan goes off for a HIA but the extra man is worth much more.
England have been ok, Ireland are tough to compete with at the breakdown because they're very good at the dark arts stuff in there. It's always going to mean they get a few soft penalties.
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To carry on moaning about that red, Ribbans just got tackled and in the ruck Aki fell and landed his hand in Ribbans head, that's obviously a rugby incident and doesn't get looked at but if you've given the one on Steward maybe England should be asking about it. There will be multiple examples like it this half.
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Ireland try shouldn't have stood, the scrum should never have stood given Hansen made a seatbelt tackle on Watson with no attempt at a legal tackle. Again doesn't get mentioned because those are the sort of decisions that never get given against Ireland in Dublin.
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Villa winning 3-0 and moving into the top 10.
Ireland winning the 6 Nations.
It's good to go out on a winning note!
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My uncle, big Ireland supporter, passed away over Christmas. He'll be happy, wherever he is.
RIP
COYBIG
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Fair play to Ireland. England were much better today, but they need to build from this.
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Another four tries conceded for England? Are we just not tough enough?
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Well to be fair 2 of those were against 14 men and 1 was against 13 men. Ill discipline is more the issue - toughness and desire was there today.
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Another four tries conceded for England? Are we just not tough enough?
the last try came against 13men, you can't really read anything into it. The 2nd? Should never have counted, coming directly from a scrum that should've been a penalty to England for an obvious seatbelt tackle on Watson as he fielded the kick.
Ireland were the better team, that's undeniable, but the ref was fucking awful, starting with one of the worst red card decisions I've ever seen. What pissed me off more was all the pundits tying themselves up in knots to justify it. The reaction from current and former players on twitter is a far more honest reaction. Some of it is covered on the BBC article - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65002154 - but that's the tip of the iceberg, I've seen very few people say it was correct, at best the defense offered is along the lines of once they decided it was foul play then the rules force them into a red card.
I'm normally of the view that rugby officials are far better than football but today was a very clear example of a lack of common sense. I'll be amazed if the red isn't rescinded in the week and it gets quietly brushed under the carpet.
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Peyper couldn’t wait to make that decision, ruined the game for everyone the absolute Twat.
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It feels sad to admit it but I'm still pissed off over the decision over 3 hours later, I just can't get it out my head. What's really stuck with me is that I keep going over all the potential accidental collisions that happen during play and how this decision would play out for each. I just can't get away from the idea that this could lead to games finishing with 25 players on the pitch. Just a week ago the Yellow for Bruno felt like a step in the right direction of officials understanding that cheap red cards are bad for the game and shifting the bar a little higher so to have it set so low today worries me.
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Stuff like this - https://twitter.com/theofficialcox/status/1637158650451050497 - are why I'm so annoyed by the red card. How is this not far more dangerous and, importantly, intended?
In the 2nd half I counted 6 times (not including that one) that a player got caught in the head or face under what I'd consider accidental circumstances and none of them resulted in any review so I'd love to know why not. I mentioned Aki landing his hand in ribbans head, there was also a Sexton shoulder to Ben Curry, one where Ribbans got a stud across his cheek because as he was moving away from a tackle an Irish defender went off his feet, one where an England player (can't remember who) got shoved out of a ruck and his hip/arse landed on an Irish head and a couple of more minor ones where players took forearms to the face during a ruck and a maul respectively.
The argument will be that the outcome (i.e. Keenan failing his HIA) justifies the difference but ruling around outcome when it's an unavoidable accident is stupid and risks people being penalised for ridiculous reasons.
I'll leave it there though, I'm genuinely not angry about England losing, I expected that and thought the game went better than it could've, I'm angry about the implications for the sport if something like that becomes established as a red card.
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Thing is in a sport that is inherently based on collision you can’t be red carding unless there’s either intent, recklessness, or negligence. I don’t think any of those things were present.
In any case we’ve got to stop giving away so many penalties.
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It looked a terrible decision, the Irish lad just collided with Stewart who was trying to avoid making a tackle. Absolutely no intent whatsoever other than to get out of the way. Reminded me of the Villa game against Man U in the FA Cup when our goal was chalked off for their player running into ours.
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Sarah Hunter, the world's most capped women's player with 140 caps, is retiring after the Scotland match on Saturday.
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It looked a terrible decision, the Irish lad just collided with Stewart who was trying to avoid making a tackle. Absolutely no intent whatsoever other than to get out of the way. Reminded me of the Villa game against Man U in the FA Cup when our goal was chalked off for their player running into ours.
I do think there are two clear tests - intent or negligence/recklessness - if it’s neither of those things then it’s just an unfortunate incident.
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It looked a terrible decision, the Irish lad just collided with Stewart who was trying to avoid making a tackle. Absolutely no intent whatsoever other than to get out of the way. Reminded me of the Villa game against Man U in the FA Cup when our goal was chalked off for their player running into ours.
I do think there are two clear tests - intent or negligence/recklessness - if it’s neither of those things then it’s just an unfortunate incident.
I'm as far from being a rugby expert as it's possible to be, but it looks like it's getting to the point where a player who mashes his head into another player stands a fairly good chance of getting the other player sent off. Surely negligence has to be more than just failing to get out of the way?
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It looked a terrible decision, the Irish lad just collided with Stewart who was trying to avoid making a tackle. Absolutely no intent whatsoever other than to get out of the way. Reminded me of the Villa game against Man U in the FA Cup when our goal was chalked off for their player running into ours.
I do think there are two clear tests - intent or negligence/recklessness - if it’s neither of those things then it’s just an unfortunate incident.
I'm as far from being a rugby expert as it's possible to be, but it looks like it's getting to the point where a player who mashes his head into another player stands a fairly good chance of getting the other player sent off. Surely negligence has to be more than just failing to get out of the way?
and that's exactly why the decision was such a big problem. I apologise that this post will be a bit long...
I was fucking livid at the time but having taken a few days and read up on the laws a bit my biggest problem is that Peyper never, at any point, addressed the very first question in the protocol which is to determine if there has even been foul play.
Part one of the process is was the contact (my opinions included):
Intentional - no
Reckless - no
Avoidable - no
So straight away there's no foul play, it's a rugby incident and we all have sympathy for Keenan getting hurt but the game carries on. The only one I'd be willing to discuss for a tiny degree is reckless but I go with the definition of "actions that fail to consider the safety of himself or others" and I don't see how that can apply here. If anything Keenan is the more reckless of the 2.
If you do disagree with any of those then you start to look for mitigation and some of the examples, in the laws, are as follows:
Sudden and significant drop in height by the ball carrier
Defending player had no time to readjust
Passive action
Involuntary collision
No leading arm when close to the body
I think you can apply every single one of those which means the very worst it could be is a yellow card but truthfully that so many measures that count against it that I doubt most refs would go for more than a penalty even if they gave it as foul play.
I hope, for the sake of the sport, the red card gets overturned and there is a clarification made to ensure something like this doesn't happen again.
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To the surprise of literally no one Stewards red card has been rescinded.
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Yeah but they still said it was foul play. It just wasn’t.
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If he didn’t sort of turn sideways, he was getting a head in the bollocks, is what it looked like to me.
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To the surprise of literally no one Stewards red card has been rescinded.
Would have been an interesting game had Steward not got the red and the Irish chap did for his ‘shoulder on head’ contact on Ludlam
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Yeah but they still said it was foul play. It just wasn’t.
I have very little understanding of the rules, but I 'support' Ireland and I agree, think it was just an unfortunate accident.
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Can somebody please tell me, what gets you a penalty in rugby union? I've never been able to work it out. I just kind of see the beefcake blokes sticking their heads between each others' legs, wrestling a bit, then a fat bloke will fall over and suddenly "yep, penalty, clear penalty".
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Can somebody please tell me, what gets you a penalty in rugby union? I've never been able to work it out. I just kind of see the beefcake blokes sticking their heads between each others' legs, wrestling a bit, then a fat bloke will fall over and suddenly "yep, penalty, clear penalty".
Most are breakdown infringements/tackle stuff:
- Not letting go of the ball after being tackled - Penalty
- Not letting go of the player after making a tackle - Penalty
Ruck stuff:
Once 1 player from each team other than the tackler(s) *a tackler is anyone in contact with the ball carrier when their knee or arse hits the floor* and ball carrier are there it becomes a ruck and you can only join from behind the back foot on your side, lots of pens are for side entry.- For a tackler to join/create a ruck they have to clearly release the player, if not - Penalty.
- More subjective but when joining the ruck you have to try to stay on you feet, if the ref thinks you've purposely fallen it can be a penalty.
- To use your hands in a ruck you have to come from an onside position and not join the ruck, handling the ball when you are part of the ruck is a penalty.
- Pulling a player from the opposition into the ruck is a penalty.
- Interfering with the scrum half (or whoever is in that role at the ruck) when you're part of the ruck is a penalty.
Maul:
A maul is formed in the same way as ruck but when the ball is in the air.
- Offside is the same.
- If the defensive team collapse the maul its a penalty.
- If the attacking team collapse then they have to play the ball "immediately" or the defence get a penalty.
Scrums:
- If it turns 90 someone will get a penalty.
- If it collapses someone will get a penalty.
I can't be more specific because most refs are pretty inconsistent in policing the scrum so whatever I tell you will be quickly contradicted if you watch a game.
That said, what to look for is:- How straight the props are and where they're binding to the opponent, turning in and binding on the arm are normally a problem.
- Also if a prop has his legs too straight it often causes a collapse and a penalty.
Also feeding is supposed to be between the front row players and technically it's a penalty if the ball goes to the 2nd row without being 'hooked' but very few refs police this at all unless someone passes direct to the 8.
Most other penalties are way to work out what they're for and commentators will be clearer on them.
Hope that helps!
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Can somebody please tell me, what gets you a penalty in rugby union? I've never been able to work it out. I just kind of see the beefcake blokes sticking their heads between each others' legs, wrestling a bit, then a fat bloke will fall over and suddenly "yep, penalty, clear penalty".
Most are breakdown infringementstackke stuff:
Not letting go of the ball after being tackled.
Not letting go of the player after making a tackle.
Ruck stuff:
Once 1 player from each team other than the tackler(s) and tacklee are there it becomes a ruck and you can only join from behind the back foot on your side, lots of pens are for side entry.
More subjective but when joining the ruck you have to try to stay on you feet, if the ref thinks you've purposely fallen it can be a penalty.
To use your hands in a ruck you have to come from an onside position and not join the ruck, handling the ball when you are part of the ruck is a penalty.
Pulling a player from the opposition into the ruck is a penalty.
Interfering with the scrum half (or whoever is in that role at the ruck) when you're part of the ruck is a penalty.
Maul:
A maul is formed in the same way as ruck but when the ball is in the air.
Offside is the same.
If the defensive team collapse the maul its a penalty.
If the attacking team collapse then they have to play the ball "immediately" or the defence get a penalty.
Scrums:
If it turns 90 someone will get a penalty.
If it collapses someone will get a penalty.
I can't be more specific because most refs are pretty inconsistent in policing the scrum so whatever I tell you will be quickly contradicted if you warch a game.
What to look for though is how straight the props are and where they're binding, turning in and binding on the arm are normally a problem. Also if a prop has his legs too straight it often causes a collapse and a penalty.
Most other penalties are wasy to work out what they're for and commentators will be clearer on them.
Hope that helps!
Wow, that's a lot, Paul!
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Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.
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Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.
I'm sure everything you said made perfect sense. I'll try to get my head around it and get back to you. Thanks Paul!
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Thanks for that, made things clearer for me.
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I noticed now I'm on my laptop there were a few typos and bit that weren't as clear as I'd like so I've made a few changes to the post.
I honestly hope it helps people because I do understand that for people who don't know the sport/haven't played the technical penalties can get really messy and hard to follow. I didn't include the lineout because most of the penalties there are actually in the resultant maul but I'm happy to cover anything if anyone is unsure.
I'm also very sorry for anyone who doesn't give a shit about this, I took Rory's request in good faith and hope it will help him if he chooses to watch games going forward.
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Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.
I'm sure everything you said made perfect sense.I'll try to get my head around it and get back to you. Thanks Paul!
That would be a free-kick.
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I noticed now I'm on my laptop there were a few typos and bit that weren't as clear as I'd like so I've made a few changes to the post.
I honestly hope it helps people because I do understand that for people who don't know the sport/haven't played the technical penalties can get really messy and hard to follow. I didn't include the lineout because most of the penalties there are actually in the resultant maul but I'm happy to cover anything if anyone is unsure.
I'm also very sorry for anyone who doesn't give a shit about this, I took Rory's request in good faith and hope it will help him if he chooses to watch games going forward.
I've just read through and it absolutely helps, thanks Paul. So how long do you have to let go of the ball/man after a tackle, and what constitutes a completed tackle?
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Yeah, i started thinking a few lines would enough and got carried away. Rugby looks complicated written down but in play everything makes a lot more sense.
I'm sure everything you said made perfect sense.I'll try to get my head around it and get back to you. Thanks Paul!
That would be a free-kick.
Nice.
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I noticed now I'm on my laptop there were a few typos and bit that weren't as clear as I'd like so I've made a few changes to the post.
I honestly hope it helps people because I do understand that for people who don't know the sport/haven't played the technical penalties can get really messy and hard to follow. I didn't include the lineout because most of the penalties there are actually in the resultant maul but I'm happy to cover anything if anyone is unsure.
I'm also very sorry for anyone who doesn't give a shit about this, I took Rory's request in good faith and hope it will help him if he chooses to watch games going forward.
I've just read through and it absolutely helps, thanks Paul. So how long do you have to let go of the ball/man after a tackle, and what constitutes a completed tackle?
Completed tackle: Knee or arse on the floor.
Letting go is generally when the ref calls the tackle as complete but is policed by outcome so if you're stopping play from progressing you get penalised, if that makes sense.
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I noticed now I'm on my laptop there were a few typos and bit that weren't as clear as I'd like so I've made a few changes to the post.
I honestly hope it helps people because I do understand that for people who don't know the sport/haven't played the technical penalties can get really messy and hard to follow. I didn't include the lineout because most of the penalties there are actually in the resultant maul but I'm happy to cover anything if anyone is unsure.
I'm also very sorry for anyone who doesn't give a shit about this, I took Rory's request in good faith and hope it will help him if he chooses to watch games going forward.
I've just read through and it absolutely helps, thanks Paul. So how long do you have to let go of the ball/man after a tackle, and what constitutes a completed tackle?
Completed tackle: Knee or arse on the floor.
Letting go is generally when the ref calls the tackle as complete but is policed by outcome so if you're stopping play from progressing you get penalised, if that makes sense.
Definitely. Last one (I promise) what's a knock-on?
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When you knock the ball forward with your hands instead of catching it / picking it up.
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Thanks Chris.
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The southern hemisphere Championship starts tomorrow.
First two games are in South Africa and Argentina, so at tv friendly times.
As with other World Cup years, it’s a shortened competition.
However, it looks like NZ & Aus are playing an extra game for ‘The Bloke Who Knew My Grandfather*’ Cup
* alternatively….. ‘The Bloke Whose House I Can See From My Garden’ Cup
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'Scotland not going to World Cup to finish second' - Ewan Ashman
He’s quite correct, they won’t finish second. More likely the equivalent of seventh or eighth :)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66203667
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The verdict in the Sexton hearing is about as predictable as it is pathetic. It was never gonig to be more than 3 games because they didn't dare make him miss out on the world cup.
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Forgot to post anything about this whilst it was going on but the weekend saw the end of the U20 championship with England finishing 4th.
The 2 standout players for me were:
Cassius Cleaves on the wing who had fantastic quick feet and was always looking to break the line, needs a bit of work on the defensive positioning side of his game but I reckon he'll be very good in a year or 2.
Chandler Cunningham-South at 8 who was spectacularly good, almost like a full international stepping down to fill in and bullying teams. He's an exceptional talent and I reckon will be the next big thing in English rugby after the world cup.
Other than that the thing that really stood out was that the 4 teams that made the semi-finals all had front rows that looked and played like flankers as soon as the ball was loose. Give it a few years and the idea that Genge (for example) is dynamic will feel so out of date and mobility will be essential for props. Hookers have already seen the change with people like Sheehan and Blamire coming through and that doesn't look like it's going to change.
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I'm putting this as a marker now so I can look back in 8 years and say "see, I told you." My mate Ed's son Harry to play for England. He's unbelievable at the age of 11 and has got all the posho schools (including Millfield) falling over themselves to offer him a full scholarship. Dylan Hartley said he's one of the best kids he's ever seen.
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I'm putting this as a marker now so I can look back in 8 years and say "see, I told you." My mate Ed's son Harry to play for England. He's unbelievable at the age of 11 and has got all the posho schools (including Millfield) falling over themselves to offer him a full scholarship. Dylan Hartley said he's one of the best kids he's ever seen.
Good luck to him, at that age it's mostly about technical ability so the kids with natural talent are very easy to spot. I remember going to a youth tournament a while back (2011 I think) and 2 kids stood out by miles and pretty much everyone watching knew they were going all the way, Jack and Tom Willis. We don't have anyone at that standard but there's a few kids I've seen for or against us that will play pro/semi-pro if they want it.
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I'm putting this as a marker now so I can look back in 8 years and say "see, I told you." My mate Ed's son Harry to play for England. He's unbelievable at the age of 11 and has got all the posho schools (including Millfield) falling over themselves to offer him a full scholarship. Dylan Hartley said he's one of the best kids he's ever seen.
Good luck to him, at that age it's mostly about technical ability so the kids with natural talent are very easy to spot. I remember going to a youth tournament a while back (2011 I think) and 2 kids stood out by miles and pretty much everyone watching knew they were going all the way, Jack and Tom Willis. We don't have anyone at that standard but there's a few kids I've seen for or against us that will play pro/semi-pro if they want it.
That is the complete opposite of my experience.
I (helped) coached my younger son's age group from under 8's through to 16, and we put various kids into the Kent and Saracens pathways.
The kids that were taken on by Saracens were generally the most physical, and this changed from year to year as kids matured at different rates. Some of our most technical and skilful players were of no interest to Saracens.
Interestingly, Saracens sometimes used to pay for some of those elite prospects to be educated at fee paying schools (I think Itoje and Vunipola both went to Harrow) - I am not sure if this still happens.
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With Sarries that wouldn't shock me, they're one of the more agricultural sides around.
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My mate's son is big for his age, an extemely fast runner, and strong as anything. All combined with being ridiculously skilful. At one game against another school their teacher actually asked if he could be taken off as the other parents were complaining that it wasn't fair.
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A lad in my sons class at school was picked up by London Irish at an early age, he was streets ahead of kids his age, in fact he was streets ahead of kids 2 or 3 age groups higher. I heard referees ask him to 'not be so physical' in games as he dominated every kid he came across. He had everything, skill, technical ability, strength, pace and guile, London Irish put him through several years at Harrow where he shone.
He works for Santander now.
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England on top but have left a few chances out there. Probably unsurprising as it’s a fairly unfamiliar side.
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England look bloody awful.
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2 month training camp for this shit?
Hope they’ve got flexible Eurotunnel tickets as they won’t get out of the group stage again.
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Really poor second half. Very sloppy.
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Not that I care greatly, but amazing second half for Scotland against France.
Losing 21-3 at halftime. Scored a try, but then had a man sent off and still won 25-21 I think.
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Not that I care greatly, but amazing second half for Scotland against France.
Losing 21-3 at halftime. Scored a try, but then had a man sent off and still won 25-21 I think.
Wouldn’t surprise me if Scotland got through the group stages.
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Really poor second half. Very sloppy.
Could we conceivably lose to Japan at the world cup?
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Not sure how the draw the lines up but if they play it’s conceivable. I wouldn’t say likely, but England really need to get in shape quick - and I mean that in several senses, they consistently drop off in the second half.
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I think England will definitely lose to Argentina and have a real chance of losing to Japan. English rugby is in a terrible state at the moment
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That england squad is a mess. 5-6 players who shouldn't be there and a couple of gaps where he's left us looking very weak.
I have no optimism for this world cup, it could be embarrassing for us. Borthwick has added nothing and I'm becoming more and more convinced that his title win was a fluke.
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A pretty disappointing squad.
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Forwards: Ollie Chessum (Leicester), Dan Cole (Leicester), Tom Curry (Sale), Theo Dan (Saracens), Ben Earl (Saracens), Ellis Genge (Bristol), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), David Ribbans (Toulon), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Jack Walker (Harlequins), Jack Willis (Toulouse).
Backs: Henry Arundell (Racing 92), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Saracens), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Sale), Ollie Lawrence (Bath), Max Malins (Bristol), Joe Marchant (Stade Francais), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester), Anthony Watson (unattached), Ben Youngs (Leicester).
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Ben Youngs. Fucking hell.
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Ok specifics now I've taken a bit of time to look at it.
Cole is past it and has the mobility of a dead tree, poor selection, sadly we don't have much depth on that side but picking Cole because he's got a lot of caps feels like a cowardly way out.
Ditto with Marler on the other side, I like the guy but he's not up to it any more and with someone like Rapava-Ruskin available I don't see any reason to go back to him.
Curry, Ludlam, Earl and Willis are all 7s with Lawes and Billy V the only proper 6 and 8 in the squad, that's just stupid. I can live with the idea of using Lawes, Itoje and Martin and 5.5s covering 6 and lock but to have Vunipola as your only 8 when he's been either shockingly out of form or injured for about 2 years is pathetic. Personally I'd have dropped Martin and Earl to take Pearson and Mercer.
At 9 he has, yet again, picked for experience instead of form and ability so we're stuck with Care and Youngs. Care I can just about understand if he'd taken Dombrandt and planned to play the 3 quins guys together in the 8-9-10 crux but without that incentive I don't see any reason to bring a 36year old back into the squad. I'd drop both and add Mitchell and Quirke.
That leaves the outside backs where his think is at its most muddled. He's decided to go with versatility out there, and I can see the benefit to an extent but it's left without a genuine winger in the squad. Watson and Arundell are better at fullback but can both do a good job on the wing so I'm ok with them but then he's picked Malins, Daly and Marchant to cover wing and outside centre and the first 2 aren't good enough to play wing at international level and both are suspect in the centres because they never play there. I'd have taken Dingwall and Murley in place of them to add a little more specialisation.
so I have a problem with about a quarter of the squad and that's before i get onto the tactical choices he's making and the focus on brute force over mobility and stamina which sees us fall apart in the 2nd half fairly consistently. When Jones left i wanted someone to come in get us through the world cup and then pick a long-term replacement. I don't think that was the intention with Borthwick but he's making me think it might still happen.
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Ben Youngs. Fucking hell.
In a couple of decades, people will look back, see the number of caps Youngs won and thing he must have been the greatest scrum half who ever played the game
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I literally haven’t watched a moment of rugby since Worcester went bump so to see the squad still contains Youngs, Care & Cole is a Wtf moment….might as well have kept Eddie the idiot in charge, thought the idea of changing to Borthwick was sack off the old guard that Jones kept picking
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I think England still look like a side who lack an identity. People get confused and think doing the basics is an identity in and of itself. It’s not, it’s a fundamental part of whatever style a team wants to play. England don’t even have those basics right yet, and just seem quite confused as to what they’re trying to do.
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Didn’t see it, but pretty underwhelming result.
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Watching it back it was a bloody hopeless display. Mistakes and bad decisions all over the place.
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I think England still look like a side who lack an identity. People get confused and think doing the basics is an identity in and of itself. It’s not, it’s a fundamental part of whatever style a team wants to play. England don’t even have those basics right yet, and just seem quite confused as to what they’re trying to do.
Agree with this entirely. In the 2022 Prem final, Borthwick's Leicester ground out a win over Saracens in a horrible kickfest. Sarries completely changed the way they play as a result - going through the hands as the default option from every turnover - and scored a ton of points on the way to the 2023 title. England seem to be caught somewhere between the two - they run when they should kick and kick when they should run, and they have lumbering forwards at first receiver way too often...
Farrell's gonna get a six game ban now given his previous, so gotta commit to Ford at 10 from here - Smith is all wrapping and no content for me without the threat of the fantastic Esterhuizen outside him. I'd go with an all pace and turnover back three of Earl, Willis and Curry, with Lawes back in the second row for ballast.
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Farrell gets away with it.... Red Card overturned
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Surprised by that. I mean I know he couldn't wrap his right arm or duck his head because of Jamie George, but I didn't think that would be enough mitigation to overturn, as he was never hinged at the waist, and it looked to me like he was moving towards the ball carrier.
I guess the committee were shown more than we have seen.
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Surprised by that. I mean I know he couldn't wrap his right arm or duck his head because of Jamie George, but I didn't think that would be enough mitigation to overturn, as he was never hinged at the waist, and it looked to me like he was moving towards the ball carrier.
I guess the committee were shown more than we have seen.
Personally I'm guessing the committee were looking to avoid banning the England captain from the world cup. Just like they were looking to avoid banning an Irish legend from his planned world cup retirement.
I have no trust for those panels because they make things up to fit the decision they want far too often, generally with nonsense about previous good behaviour and temperament, or conversely giving someone an extended ban because of some unrelated incident years earlier.
Farrell is a liability who has tackled recklessly for his entire career but always gets lenient bans despite doing nothing to correct his technique.
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Correct paul_e.
The ban should have stood. This isn't the first time Farrell has been guilty of a tackle without using his arms. He is a liability.
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The ban may yet be reinstated as World Rugby look to overturn the ruling.
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I see Eddie Jones is still a pr!ck.
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Two certainties in rugby….Owen Farrell can’t tackle properly and Eddie Jones is a nob
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The Jones routine is a bit tired now. He needs another record, there used to be a degree of wit to it but now it’s just overtly unpleasant.
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Surprised by that. I mean I know he couldn't wrap his right arm or duck his head because of Jamie George, but I didn't think that would be enough mitigation to overturn, as he was never hinged at the waist, and it looked to me like he was moving towards the ball carrier.
I guess the committee were shown more than we have seen.
Personally I'm guessing the committee were looking to avoid banning the England captain from the world cup. Just like they were looking to avoid banning an Irish legend from his planned world cup retirement.
I have no trust for those panels because they make things up to fit the decision they want far too often, generally with nonsense about previous good behaviour and temperament, or conversely giving someone an extended ban because of some unrelated incident years earlier.
Farrell is a liability who has tackled recklessly for his entire career but always gets lenient bans despite doing nothing to correct his technique.
Although it pains me to agree with David Campese he’s correct in saying that Farrell does this sort of thing time and time again and doesn’t seem to learn from it.
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He is and it's because officials have been overly lenient with him for his entire career. Why bother changing if you get away with it time and time again?
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England just look so flat, there's no creativity, no energy and no real desire.
Jones was a twat who overstayed his welcome but Borthwick is just such a dull choice to replace him and he's made us a dull team who are just trying to dominate territory and hope they can push over enough points to be competitive.
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They’re not doing that well though. If you are going to be stodgy you have to be good at it (e.g. no pens, excellent structure etc). They do all that badlyZ
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They’re not doing that well though. If you are going to be stodgy you have to be good at it (e.g. no pens, excellent structure etc). They do all that badlyZ
Exactly, Ireland have been really poor today but are still on top and I suspect will put 15-20 points on us in the 2nd half.
Oh and Youngs is fucking shit (sorry it's been nearly half a game without me saying it and I couldn't hold it any more), everything is slow and predetermined, with absolutely no attempt to play the game in front of him.
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I nearly slagged off Daly in the previous post but by leaving it I can now point out that his positioning for that try made the kick inevitable. When the 10 is taking the ball deep you can try to overload the defence like that, it's just fucking basics.
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South Africa are showing how poor Wales are as well. We’re fucking miles off.
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The problem is we have 4-5 players who just aren't up to it (Stuart, Vunipola, Youngs, Daly and arguably Ford) and mistakes from them is just leading to easy scoring opportunities and/or stifling our play to the point where Ireland are holding us at arms length and waiting for us to present the ball back to them.
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Got to be honest at the moment I’m not seeing any positive improvement under Borthwick. I’ve said it before but he seems to think doing the basics is an identity and it’s not. It’s a non-negotiable that underpins an identity. It’s compounded by the fact that we also do the basics really badly - sloppy, inaccurate, lacking intensity.
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Got to be honest at the moment I’m not seeing any positive improvement under Borthwick. I’ve said it before but he seems to think doing the basics is an identity and it’s not. It’s a non-negotiable that underpins an identity. It’s compounded by the fact that we also do the basics really badly - sloppy, inaccurate, lacking intensity.
I agree, if anything we've gone backwards because at least under Jones we looked like we could score tries from nothing.
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Fuck off Vunipola, moron.
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Upgraded to red now.
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Upgraded to red now.
The RTE commentators didn't seem too surprised.
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Upgraded to red now.
The RTE commentators didn't seem too surprised.
To be honest neither was I and I know feck all about rugby.
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Upgraded to red now.
The RTE commentators didn't seem too surprised.
To be honest neither was I and I know feck all about rugby.
Same here. :)
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Well it was only high, no arms and straight up shoulder-to-head (all 3 factors of which could be a straight red).
I really wouldn't be surprised if England go out in the group, this is fucking pathetic.
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Well it’s pretty embarrassing that we’ve had two red cards in two weeks. Borthwick is a bad World Cup from the chop already in my view.
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The Farrell red was poor techniqueand predictable of him but the Vunipola one today was the act of someone who is miles away from the form and fitness to be starting games in preparation for the world cup.
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Billy Vunipola has been shite for ages, he’s no great loss. Tackle looks worse as the Irish fella does duck a little as he goes into contact but that’s no excuse for Vunipola being shite.
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Billy Vunipola has been shite for ages, he’s no great loss. Tackle looks worse as the Irish fella does duck a little as he goes into contact but that’s no excuse for Vunipola being shite.
Indeed, he shouldn't have been anywhere near the squad, as bad as it sounds I'm hoping he gets a long enough ban that it forces us to replace him, we'd be better for it.
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Billy Vunipola has been shite for ages, he’s no great loss. Tackle looks worse as the Irish fella does duck a little as he goes into contact but that’s no excuse for Vunipola being shite.
In the last few seasons, there have been times when he has looked very good for Saracens, but there's inevitably an injury, followed by a number of mediocre games for him to come back up to speed. Once he's fit, as long as he stays that way, he's still helluva player
He didn't look anywhere near fit last week or today, and sorry, I just don't think he had the gas left to drop fast enough to make the tackle cleanly. Clear red card, will probably get 6 games reduced to 3, but I agree with others, I would take this opportunity to replace him with either Willis Jr or (preferably) Mercer.
Not Dombrandt because he never looks fit to me ever...
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Well it was only high, no arms and straight up shoulder-to-head (all 3 factors of which could be a straight red).
I really wouldn't be surprised if England go out in the group, this is fucking pathetic.
I don't think we stand a chance against Argentina and I can definitely see Japan beating us.
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Losing to Japan is unthinkable. The media here are worse than the English media for a wankfest extravaganza. Thank god the England Japan game is on at 4am Japan time.
They've just lost to Samoa and been battered by Fiji. Their coach is off after the world cup, and they're crap.
Surely England aren't that bad.
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Liability idiot Farrell misses 4 games inc first two of WC…England to be out before he can play?? Is Les Cusworth still available?
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To be honest I can't say I care much if he's out or not, I'm fully expecting us to be pretty shit eitherway at the World Cup *shrugs shoulders*.
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Agree. All three outside halves have started one game each in the warm ups and we've looked equally disjointed and clueless in all of them.
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It’s going to be a shocker of the World Cup for us I think. A lot of that is down to Jones and hanging on too long, but Borthwick has also been really underwhelming to date.
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South Africa beat New Zealand 35-7 at Twickenham, their biggest ever win over the All Blacks.
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Very early on and 'only' fiji but Mitchell is making us look much sharper at the breakdown and the whole team is better for it.
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I spoke a bit too soon, the weather is clearly dictating how both teams are playing but England have butchered a few decent chance to extend the lead and still look a bit vulnerable in defence.
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Bring back Eddie…….England are all kinds of garbage at the moment :)
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Haha England
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20 minutes in it looked ok but still a bit off in attack but once Fiji got a grip on the conditions they played us off the park.
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Well done the RFU and Steve Borthwick, amazing job.
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First ever defeat to Fiji. Was saying to a mate yesterday I thought we'd still get through group but maybe not.
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What's wrong with England? The players aren't as poor as the results make them appear, surely?
I only watch Ireland, don't know much about how other teams fare, so a genuine question.
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after a good 20minutes I can't think of a worse performance from England, terrible defence that let them gain metres at ease, predictable and dull at the set piece and a Gerrard-style 'hope for some magic' attack that doesn't actually include many players capable of it.
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Losing to Fiji, at home, good grief. Borthwick is going to start coming under pressure now.
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Losing to Fiji, at home, good grief. Borthwick is going to start coming under pressure now.
He’ll be gone long before the 2024 6N starts.
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If this continues he will. I’ve banged on about this plenty already, but I remain convinced that he thinks that “doing the basics” is a game plan. It’s not, it’s a non-negotiable that underpins any type of game plan. It’s compounded by the fact we’re doing the basics terrible badly.
We just look like a really poorly coached team and completely rudderless. It worried me that he’s by and large looked to bring in his coaches at Leicester. It’s indicative of a person who’s a bit closed minded and inflexible.
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If this continues he will. I’ve banged on about this plenty already, but I remain convinced that he thinks that “doing the basics” is a game plan. It’s not, it’s a non-negotiable that underpins any type of game plan. It’s compounded by the fact we’re doing the basics terrible badly.
We just look like a really poorly coached team and completely rudderless. It worried me that he’s by and large looked to bring in his coaches at Leicester. It’s indicative of a person who’s a bit closed minded and inflexible.
He's out of his depth. He's trying to set us up as a team that plays territory but that only works if you're dominant in the tackle and can pin a team back.
In attack we have 1up runners far too often, which is a clear sign of bad coaching. JUst watch how often there are 2-3 defenders in before the clearout, it makes everything slow and/or sees us pushed backwards in the tackle.
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Thinking about it I can see massive parallels with when England cricket hired Chris Silverwood. Had done well in domestic cricket, been around the set up previously, and ultimately he tried to play a very conservative game with a focus on attrition. Players ended up massively confused and it was a disastrous period where they had consistently terrible results.
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Thinking about it I can see massive parallels with when England cricket hired Chris Silverwood. Had done well in domestic cricket, been around the set up previously, and ultimately he tried to play a very conservative game with a focus on attrition. Players ended up massively confused and it was a disastrous period where they had consistently terrible results.
Seems fair. As I said when he was appointed, my biggest concern was that he was pretty inexperienced as a head coach and I didn't know if he would be able to fix everything in such a short timespan and that's how it's turned out, he's gone about trying to fix things as if he had 2-3 years rather than effectively 6months and we look like a team that's just started trying to 'find itself'. At best it's incredible naivety from him.
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He's like the Steve Bruce of Rugby. :(
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He's like the Steve Bruce of Rugby. :(
Savage takedown, no need for that 🙂
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Interesting selection - looks like a team that’s going to run it, which is at odds with what’s come before.
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World Cup prediction time.
France to beat South Africa in the final, should be close but home advantage might swing it for Les Bleus.
Ireland to go out in the quarter finals, and still not have made a World Cup semi-final.
England to go as far as (if not further than) Ireland in the tournament.
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World Cup prediction time.
France to beat South Africa in the final, should be close but home advantage might swing it for Les Bleus.
Ireland to go out in the quarter finals, and still not have made a World Cup semi-final.
England to go as far as (if not further than) Ireland in the tournament.
Defeatist! (Although probably correct.)
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Very up for this. Excited to watch Italy-Namibia at the Irish Pub in Cannaregio. The Veneto (for obvious, Benetton-flavoured reasons) is the biggest region for rugby in the country, so should be a good atmosphere.
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So we're on to day 1 and we kick off with, and I don't think this is being over the top, the best (on paper) opening fixture to a world cup (in any sport) I can think of. It must be pretty rare for the first game to be one that could genuinely end up repeated in the final and would be much of a shock. Nothing much between the teams either so could be a belter.
For anyone who isn't aware all the matches are on ITV (and most are on ITV1) so there shoyuldn't be many problems finding somewhere to watch them.
Things kick off properly tomorrow with 4 games back-to-back 9including the opener for England which I'm marginally less worried about now I've seen the team, still a few red flags in there but it's better than I expected a few weeks back and at least Mitchell is starting.
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World Cup prediction time.
France to beat South Africa in the final, should be close but home advantage might swing it for Les Bleus.
Ireland to go out in the quarter finals, and still not have made a World Cup semi-final.
England to go as far as (if not further than) Ireland in the tournament.
Ireland have a great chance, mate.
South Africa to win it. England have no chance. Even the Japanese think they'll beat England.
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England and Wales won't make it out of their pool, that's my prediction.
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Quite possible although weirdly either one could easily get to the semi final.
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Allez les boos!
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Does anyone know if there’s a logic as to why the draw is so far in advance of the tournament? It’s so weird and had left it open to this lopsided draw.
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England and Wales won't make it out of their pool, that's my prediction.
I agree on Wales, they just don't have the quality, I'm 50/50 on England, it will really depend on whether Borthwick has realised he was on track to match our worst ever world cup.
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Does anyone know if there’s a logic as to why the draw is so far in advance of the tournament? It’s so weird and had left it open to this lopsided draw.
Supposedly it's to do with the logistics of organising team bases and stuff like that. They needed to know what teams would be where and as early as possible. That's what Beaumont said anyway, but he's acknowledged its a disaster now and they're looking at ways to have the draw as late as possible for the next one.
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Does anyone know if there’s a logic as to why the draw is so far in advance of the tournament? It’s so weird and had left it open to this lopsided draw.
Supposedly it's to do with the logistics of organising team bases and stuff like that. They needed to know what teams would be where and as early as possible. That's what Beaumont said anyway, but he's acknowledged its a disaster now and they're looking at ways to have the draw as late as possible for the next one.
Personally I think it's more that the rankings normally don't shift around all that much so it generally works out ok and there's no pressure to do anything different. That's gone to shit this time and suddenly a process that was fine looks really poor. The logistics argument makes sense if you consider the rules were implemented before the internet.
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Whose stupid idea was the choir?
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Ireland to go out in the quarter finals, and still not have made a World Cup semi-final.
England to go as far as (if not further than) Ireland in the tournament.
Defeatist! (Although probably correct.)
Just a realistic view given the draw, but obviously hope I'm wrong. Even the Guinness ad campaign for the tournament is "Think it. Just don't jinx it". It's no wonder we look on aghast at the biennial "It's Coming Home" circus across the water.
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What happened there to the French national anthem?
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What happened there to the French national anthem?
They had a choir doing an arrangement of it, but the crowd were singing faster or slower, and it all just blended into a horrible noise.
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They won't be inviting that choir back again, absolute shambles.
Also, I might sound like an old fogey but the haka these days is too elaborate and not as good/scary as when I was a lad.
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The ref is wearing Arsenal's away shirt.
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big first 5 minutes
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Ireland have a great chance, mate.
If we win our quarter-final, having suffered no key injuries, I might just dare to dream. In the meantime, an unconvincing NZ win is probably best for us tonight.
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Atonio (french 3) looks fucking massive tonight, dunno if it's because of the kit or something but he's making the rest of the front rows look tiny.
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France on top now, letting NZ carry the ball in their own half but smothering them around the halfway line.
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Trying to enjoy this but can’t help thinking Union is now kick, kick, battering ram v battering ram then a penalty for an infringement mere mortals like myself don’t understand and every now and again a bit of flair and the odd try.
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Funny to hear a crowd booing because the ref won't use "VAR".
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Did I imagine ITV adding 2 points for each of the NZ "conversions", only to take them off again?
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Did I imagine ITV adding 2 points for each of the NZ "conversions", only to take them off again?
Certainly did with the first one
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Brilliant from france for their try.
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Both these teams can basically take the rest of the month off after this. They won't have another proper match until the QFs.
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Huge win for France, and well deserved. ABs hadca few flashes of quality but France were beetter all over the pitch.
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Quite a statement first up from the French.
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First time NZ have ever lost a pool game at the World Cup.
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And their biggest ever defeat
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Alldritt, Ollivon and Ramos were exceptional tonight.
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All Blacks making England look organised.
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France look unsurprisingly strong.
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And their biggest ever defeat
At the world cup I should say
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Did I imagine ITV adding 2 points for each of the NZ "conversions", only to take them off again?
In fairness, the touch judges couldn’t agree on one of the kicks.
My fellow University of Gloucestershire graduate, Christoph Ridley, also forgot that you can kick direct to touch from a Mark
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France look unsurprisingly strong.
Despite DuPont being a bit ropey at times, especially collecting the ball at the back of scrums
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Still don’t know how that one NZ try was allowed. Aaron Rodgers would have been proud of the pass
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Alldritt, Ollivon and Ramos were exceptional tonight.
Yup. I thought the Portuguese fella looked very strong tonight.
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World Cup prediction time.
France to beat South Africa in the final, should be close but home advantage might swing it for Les Bleus.
Ireland to go out in the quarter finals, and still not have made a World Cup semi-final.
England to go as far as (if not further than) Ireland in the tournament.
I've been out the loop with rugby union for a good 3/4 years so I placed a bet on this being the final based purely on your prediction. Did it just before the first game, 6/1. So for in advance:
Thank you BV
Fuck you BV
I'll edit it later.
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In spite of myself I am excited about the game later. The selection gives me hope - probably wrongly - but I’m looking forward to it. I think part of it is that we international sports tournaments go I always find it really compelling.
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Usually I can't be bothered with the 'I don't support England' type of English self-hatred, but something just stops me with English rugby union. I think Cipriani's memoir explains some of the attitude I just can't get behind. Also I went to a posh school and many of the rugby lads were just the dirt worst - which is unfair, and hey I support England at cricket when the biggest c**t in the school was the cricket captain, but I guess it's the aggregate impression.
That said, would love to commit more to the Irish support but being the most plastic of plastic paddies it sort of feels fake. Maybe around here I can get away with it.
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Usually I can't be bothered with the 'I don't support England' type of English self-hatred, but something just stops me with English rugby union. I think Cipriani's memoir explains some of the attitude I just can't get behind. Also I went to a posh school and many of the rugby lads were just the dirt worst - which is unfair, and hey I support England at cricket when the biggest c**t in the school was the cricket captain, but I guess it's the aggregate impression.
That said, would love to commit more to the Irish support but being the most plastic of plastic paddies it sort of feels fake. Maybe around here I can get away with it.
😂
My dad is half English, half Scottish, and my mum is half Irish, half Welsh, with a bit of French in there somewhere.
Not forgetting my dearest Japanese wife.
And I don't particularly support any of them. Villa all the way!
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That said, would love to commit more to the Irish support but being the most plastic of plastic paddies it sort of feels fake. Maybe around here I can get away with it.
Ireland's head coach is English so you could lean into that. Also you're probably as Irish as some of the lads on the team, not that that's specific to the Irish team mind.
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I’m hoping the WC will get me back into rugby, have barely watched any since Worcester went bump & as I believe rfu and Prem rugby were quite happy to lose Worcester from the league I couldn’t care less if England lose all group games.
Borthwick is the Southgate style of coach, nine but dim and so risk averse…Ben Youngs being the squad is mad…he’s at least 60 caps too heavy…at least
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Saw Richie McCaw in the crowd last night, probably slipped in a side entrance.
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Italy comfortably dealt with Namibia.
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Irish fans having a great time.
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Routine win for us there, but can't really read too much into a game you are meant to win comfortably.
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Routine win for us there, but can't really read too much into a game you are meant to win comfortably.
Our schedule is pretty bad. We've really got two warm up games before we face South Africa, and then we have Scotland at the end which will probably be a must win.
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oooops
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Usually I can't be bothered with the 'I don't support England' type of English self-hatred, but something just stops me with English rugby union. I think Cipriani's memoir explains some of the attitude I just can't get behind. Also I went to a posh school and many of the rugby lads were just the dirt worst - which is unfair, and hey I support England at cricket when the biggest c**t in the school was the cricket captain, but I guess it's the aggregate impression.
That said, would love to commit more to the Irish support but being the most plastic of plastic paddies it sort of feels fake. Maybe around here I can get away with it.
Monty, come and join Portugal now before everybody starts calling you a gloryhunter. Despite France stealing Ramos from us, Portugal have a very young and improving side. With a bit of luck we'll get Ireland in the quarter-finals.
Realistically, a victory against Georgia is about as good as it will get but from small acorns..
This is well worth a watch, as are the comments below it, rugby is finally getting organised down here and you'll appreciate the flair over brute strength..the only negative is the team are called Os Lobos.
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Very harsh if that’s upgraded to red
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The 12 has to be given offside there before the ref gives them a soft penalty.
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I know very little about the laws of Rugby but to me, that looked like a complete accidental coming together of heads. If anything the Argentinian seemed to be looking for it. Happy to have it explained to me by those that know.
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I know very little about the laws of Rugby but to me, that looked like a complete accidental coming together of heads. If anything the Argentinian seemed to be looking for it. Happy to have it explained to me by those that know.
I missed it, had to pop to the shop, the argentina one was a clear yellow and might even be upgraded, fucking stupid challenge.
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Very harsh if that’s upgraded to red
Load of sh*t, If that’s a red then the other one has to be, too
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Well that’s game over.
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I know very little about the laws of Rugby but to me, that looked like a complete accidental coming together of heads. If anything the Argentinian seemed to be looking for it. Happy to have it explained to me by those that know.
I missed it, had to pop to the shop,
For a nice bottle of Malbec?
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ok, having seen it I think it's soft but the decision is inline with how they said they'd be deciding red cards so unlucky but fair, silly tackle from Curry really.
Argie one has to be upgraded though because it was much worse for me.
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By the letter of the law it was a high tackle, and it resulted in head to head contact. You could say he was unlucky but it was badly timed. A second earlier and it would have been taking the man out in the air. That's England's 4th red card since March. Very bad discipline.
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ok, having seen it I think it's soft but the decision is inline with how they said they'd be deciding red cards so unlucky but fair, silly tackle from Curry really.
That was the view of the co-commentator on Irish TV.
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I know very little about the laws of Rugby but to me, that looked like a complete accidental coming together of heads. If anything the Argentinian seemed to be looking for it. Happy to have it explained to me by those that know.
I missed it, had to pop to the shop,
For a nice bottle of Malbec?
beer and gin actually but close enough!
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That decision is a load of bollocks, if Curry’s a red so was that.
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disgraceful decision to not upgrade their yellow.
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If you give the curry one the Argentinian one has to be red.
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Curry's one was head to head contact, way worse than the Argentina one, accidental or not.
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disgraceful decision to not upgrade their yellow.
I know fuck all about rugby but have agree, that was a snidey Schumacher tackle
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Drop goal this early, that's a nervy England.
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I know fuck all about rugby but have agree, that was a snidey Schumacher tackle
Now now, let's not overegg the pudding here.
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Curry's one was head to head contact, way worse than the Argentina one, accidental or not.
The Curry one was clumsy, the argentinian was reckless.
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Drop goal this early, that's a nervy England.
Not for me, with a man down you take the points when you can early on.
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Curry's one was head to head contact, way worse than the Argentina one, accidental or not.
The Curry one was clumsy, the argentinian was reckless.
Intention doesn't really matter when it comes to contact with head though. That's how it's policed now. If the Argentinan lad had smacked Ford in the head he'd have gotten a red too. I remember CJ Stander getting a red for that against South Africa a few years ago.
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Curry's one was head to head contact, way worse than the Argentina one, accidental or not.
The Curry one was clumsy, the argentinian was reckless.
Intention doesn't really matter when it comes to contact with head though. That's how it's policed now. If the Argentinan lad had smacked Ford in the head he'd have gotten a red too. I remember CJ Stander getting a red for that against South Africa a few years ago.
It is, when they review in the bunker 1 of the measures is around recklessness. I think he was very lucky to come back on.
Anyway, England have done a perfect job since it was confirmed as red to unsettle Argentina, taken points when we could and, importantly, we've moved the ball at speed. Ford has been impeccable but it's come from the forwards and Mitchell recycling quick ball over and over again, leaving Argentina struggling to be in front of us when we carry and keeping us on the front foot.
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That time it worked out well but Earl needs to be banned from watching Ardie Savea videos and thinking he can be a kicker.
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'Manu Tualangi, Destroyer of Worlds!'...Brilliant.
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'Manu Tualangi, Destroyer of Worlds!'...Brilliant.
fair play to the guy getting up from that one, they really hurt.
Mitchell playing his natural game is having such a big impact here, we look sharper than we have for about 2 years.
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Well that’s game over.
Looks like it.
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I don’t even like rugby that much, but this is terrific stuff
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It's good game management from England but Argentina are shite. It's been a really disappointing match.
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I hate to go on about the same thing but look at the difference in how well lined up the Argentina defence was in the last 2-3 phases because Care took a second or 2 to pick an option.
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I like Ludlam coming on at a time like this, the guy's a machine.
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Absolutely abysmal from Argentina. They look like a team that have never met each other before. Error after error after error.
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Absolutely abysmal from Argentina. They look like a team that have never met each other before. Error after error after error.
I think a big part of it was the drop goals in the first half, they setup to outnumber us in defence so we'd wear ourselves out trying to break them down, by not doing what they wanted we build a bit of pressure on the scoreboard and it's led to them being very reckless in the breakdown. It's been a a weirdly perfect 14man performance from us that I don't think anyone saw coming.
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England have been brilliant. So precise, well marshalled and accurate. Brilliant work.
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I don’t even like rugby that much, but this is terrific stuff
The good news is you're really going to enjoy the decent games in the tournament. :)
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Absolutely abysmal from Argentina. They look like a team that have never met each other before. Error after error after error.
Sometimes its the opposition that creates that effect.
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That game hasn't addressed any of the problems in the England game around creating tries because it wasn't a game where we were even really trying but the defensive sets, the speed of the breakdown and the control from 10 was superb. Weirdly that result could well be enough to see us into the semi-finals because there's nothing much to face now unti lthen so long as we show the same attitude agianst Japan.
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Absolutely abysmal from Argentina. They look like a team that have never met each other before. Error after error after error.
I think a big part of it was the drop goals in the first half, they setup to outnumber us in defence so we'd wear ourselves out trying to break them down, by not doing what they wanted we build a bit of pressure on the scoreboard and it's led to them being very reckless in the breakdown. It's been a a weirdly perfect 14man performance from us that I don't think anyone saw coming.
I think it's just Argentina being shit. They knocked on as many passes as they made. They gave away penalties. They never looked like scoring themselves until the 70th minute. Credit to England, they took their points and slowly choked the life out of Argentina, but you can't overstate how awful Argentina were.
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Absolutely abysmal from Argentina. They look like a team that have never met each other before. Error after error after error.
Sometimes its the opposition that creates that effect.
Yes England’s game management massively played a part. Those initial drop goals put doubt in Argentina and England’s accuracy (haven’t said that for a while) made Argentina force it. England still played the entire game a man down - it’s an incredible effort.
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Absolutely abysmal from Argentina. They look like a team that have never met each other before. Error after error after error.
I think a big part of it was the drop goals in the first half, they setup to outnumber us in defence so we'd wear ourselves out trying to break them down, by not doing what they wanted we build a bit of pressure on the scoreboard and it's led to them being very reckless in the breakdown. It's been a a weirdly perfect 14man performance from us that I don't think anyone saw coming.
I think it's just Argentina being shit. They knocked on as many passes as they made. They gave away penalties. They never looked like scoring themselves until the 70th minute. Credit to England, they took their points and slowly choked the life out of Argentina, but you can't overstate how awful Argentina were.
As happens so often in football though a really poor performance by a team often comes about from the other team knowing how to rattle them and forcing the errors. I agree the hnadling was poor but even then most of their handling errors came because England were right up in their faces early.
As I said just above England haven't washed away all the problems but what they've done is show that they can execute the basics properly and make it a lot more difficult for teams than they might have expected after the summer and 6N.
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Yeah Argentina were poor, but a lot of that was down to England. Ford and Earl in particular were brilliant.
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Yeah Argentina were poor, but a lot of that was down to England. Ford and Earl in particular were brilliant.
Agreed, and even those with different tinted glasses cannot fail to agree with that.
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I'd add Lawes, Manu and Mitchell as well.
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Very happy with that. Got quarter final tix and was preparing myself not to see England. Hopefully go through now and ensure a decent 10 day break in Marseille / Nice coinciding with the international break so no games missed.
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Yeah Argentina were poor, but a lot of that was down to England. Ford and Earl in particular were brilliant.
Agreed, and even those with different tinted glasses cannot fail to agree with that.
England had nothing to do with the fact Argentina were constantly over or under committing to rucks, or weren't supporting players who had the ball. They knocked on when nobody was near them. Couldn't even throw the ball into a line out at one point.
England played their own game really well, Ford was very clever taking points when he could, and their line speed in defence was good, but Argentina were flawed in every aspect of their game from the very start. It will be very interesting to see how the rest of the games in this pool play out.
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Yeah Argentina were poor, but a lot of that was down to England. Ford and Earl in particular were brilliant.
Agreed, and even those with different tinted glasses cannot fail to agree with that.
England had nothing to do with the fact Argentina were constantly over or under committing to rucks, or weren't supporting players who had the ball. They knocked on when nobody was near them. Couldn't even throw the ball into a line out at one point.
England played their own game really well, Ford was very clever taking points when he could, and their line speed in defence was good, but Argentina were flawed in every aspect of their game from the very start. It will be very interesting to see how the rest of the games in this pool play out.
We'll take the win and move on
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Of course England played a role in how Argentina played. That’s not to say Argentina weren’t poor, but part of the reason they struggled was the game management by England. They tried to react but couldn’t channel it in the right way, hence the overcommitting at rucks etc.
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Sounds like the French authorities managed to fuck it up royally for thousands of people last night. A mate was there last night took him over 90 minutes to enter the stadium, 45 minutes at half time to get a beer, hundreds of toilets were out of use and after the game the Metro wasn’t running.
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Sounds like the French authorities managed to fuck it up royally for thousands of people last night. A mate was there last night took him over 90 minutes to enter the stadium, 45 minutes at half time to get a beer, hundreds of toilets were out of use and after the game the Metro wasn’t running.
I was at a gig there this summer and the food and drink offering was poor to say the least. The Metro afterwards was incredibly well organised though so sounds like they've dropped a bollock there.
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I'd add Lawes, Manu and Mitchell as well.
The pack as a whole were excellent, but I also think the front 3 deserve some plaudits.
They held, and dominated, one of the top fronts rows in world rugby.
The forwards, in turn, gave George Ford the time to weave his magic.
And even this morning I still think it should have been two reds, or two yellows.
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Yeah Argentina were poor, but a lot of that was down to England. Ford and Earl in particular were brilliant.
I actually thought Ben Earl came of age in this game.
For me, although a very good player, he seemed to flatter to deceive. Maybe struggled to step up.
In this game, however, we saw the Ben Earl people have raved about
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A foreigner with tattoos scores a try for Japan.
Tut tut 😂
Deport him immediately.
Come on Chile.
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Is the tattoo thing still a thing with Japanese society?
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Is the tattoo thing still a thing with Japanese society?
Yes, absolutely. You can't have any visible tattoos and work for a big company, for example. It's hard to go to an onsen, or bathhouse, also. You'd basically have to get a private onsen, or cover the tattoos with tape.
Young people are getting tattooed more frequently, though.
I've been here 10 years, and on the whole, they're not a bad bunch, the Japanese. I did after all marry one! 😂 I don't like the blatant xenophobia when it comes to blaming foreigners for any kind of problem there doesn't seem to be a clear reason for (see the latest bollocks regarding overcrowding on Mount Fuji) , yet the Japanese are happy to have foreigners playing for their rugby team when it suits them. (ie, when they're winning). See Naomi Osaka, also. When she wins, she's Japanese, when she loses, she's a foreigner. It's not so black and white of course, but yeah, it's fucking irritating.
I am not a fan of the media here when it comes to sport. Think England and football's coming home x 600. Any little victory in anything is celebrated as being down to some sort of Japanese exceptionalism. It was shit being a foreigner during the whole Covid thing, feeling singled out and treated like a leper, and it's really tarnished my experience of living here in some ways. Some days I couldn't give a fuck, however, as I'm lucky to have a great family, some great mates, and a bunch of really decent students. 'Shoganai' as the Japanese say.
Anyway, doesn't look like Chile are going to cause an upset, so the telly will remain off until November 😂
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Thanks Axl, it’s a fascinating culture from the outside but I can imagine it’s a bit of a mare living with it!
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That amazing thing during Covid when there was a segment on Japanese media about how the Japanese language, because it's more elegant and expends less breath, spreads the virus less. It does make our homegrown chauvinists and exceptionalists look like rank amateurs.
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Can anyone explain the difference between Sigren’s yellow and Curry’s red?
Maybe it’s just the IRB with an agenda because I don’t understand these rules any more.
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Thanks Axl, it’s a fascinating culture from the outside but I can imagine it’s a bit of a mare living with it!
It certainly is fascinating, Jon! I've had many a great time here, and I was always brought up to take people as I find them. I can usually ignore the twats, and it's a very non confrontational culture anyway, so there is very little, if any physical threat. But yes, it can grate on occasion.
Monty, funny you should bring that up. At the time I found myself shaking my head in exasperation. I did chuckle when, I think it was in the summer of 2021, Japan topped worldwide infections. It was barely reported here obviously, and when it was, of course it was hinted at that foreigners (mainly Koreans and Chinese...and the US army bases taking the brunt) were to blame. Or that other countries had stopped testing properly, and that Japan was remaining diligent in continuing to do so.
The only problem was that the Japanese seemed to forget that they had closed the borders, and no foreigners were bringing anything in...as they actually weren't allowed to come in 😂
There was a big furore also at the university I work at. To return to campus and do face to face teaching, all foreign instructors/professors etc, had to be fully vaccinated. Japanese people in the same positions didn't. This did not go down well. I didn't really care, as my wife had just given birth and I was quite happy to sit on Teams after 1 hour of sleep and amble through a seminar with students who refused to turn their cameras on. The land of the socially inept.
Anyway, apologies for clogging up the rugby thread with my moans and groans!
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No it's very interesting! I think outsiders can struggle to realise quite how crazy Japanese xenophobia can be, especially younger generations of sad-sack otaku types who think it's all sunshine and anime. Bit of a similarity with how some (some!) very pro-EU types in the UK associate the bloc with openness and liberalism, and must get the most almighty shock from reading some of the thoughts of voters in Spain, France, Germany, Italy etc on immigration, or culture, or nationhood, or marriage...
But that REALLY is getting off topic. Looking ahead, I'd really love to believe Scotland can pull off something later. I just think there's about as much chance of Jeffrey Archer winning the Nobel Prize for Literature.
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Back to the rugby.
Farrell misses the Japan game thank god and judging by the look on his face at full time knows he won’t be a shoe in after that. I really can’t see England winning that last night with him in the side as captain.
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The state of that South Africa shirt, worst so far and not exactly intimidating.
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Back to the rugby.
Farrell misses the Japan game thank god and judging by the look on his face at full time knows he won’t be a shoe in after that. I really can’t see England winning that last night with him in the side as captain.
I think they might have won - England have played very well with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12, but we would have lost Ford having complete control. He definitely shouldn’t be starting for me.
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Back to the rugby.
Farrell misses the Japan game thank god and judging by the look on his face at full time knows he won’t be a shoe in after that. I really can’t see England winning that last night with him in the side as captain.
I think they might have won - England have played very well with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12, but we would have lost Ford having complete control. He definitely shouldn’t be starting for me.
Manu put in a proper IC 14man performance, if Farrell plays he couldn't have done that.
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If anyone can tell me how there wasn't a red at the start of this match I'll admit that I don't understand the game. I see nothing in that as mitigation and yet it wasn't even a yellow. To have that call in the same weekend as the Curry one is ridiculous and shows how badly implemented these head collision rules are.
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If anyone can tell me how there wasn't a red at the start of this match I'll admit that I don't understand the game. I see nothing in that as mitigation and yet it wasn't even a yellow. To have that call in the same weekend as the Curry one is ridiculous and shows how badly implemented these head collision rules are.
Rob Kearney on Irish TV said it should definitely have been a red. They also said Finn Russell should have had two yellows, first for the deliberate knock on and then for the late 'cheap shot'.
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Sounds like the French authorities managed to fuck it up royally for thousands of people last night. A mate was there last night took him over 90 minutes to enter the stadium, 45 minutes at half time to get a beer, hundreds of toilets were out of use and after the game the Metro wasn’t running.
I was at a gig there this summer and the food and drink offering was poor to say the least. The Metro afterwards was incredibly well organised though so sounds like they've dropped a bollock there.
You're better off getting a merguez sandwich from down the boulevard before the game.
The Velodrome is a bit of a dump, sadly. As is the rest of the city.
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Sounds like the French authorities managed to fuck it up royally for thousands of people last night. A mate was there last night took him over 90 minutes to enter the stadium, 45 minutes at half time to get a beer, hundreds of toilets were out of use and after the game the Metro wasn’t running.
I was at a gig there this summer and the food and drink offering was poor to say the least. The Metro afterwards was incredibly well organised though so sounds like they've dropped a bollock there.
You're better off getting a merguez sandwich from down the boulevard before the game.
The Velodrome is a bit of a dump, sadly. As is the rest of the city.
Very unfair! You want a sad dump where beauty should be you should go to Calabria mate.
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That's a whole region! Seems harsh. Mind you, the whole of the Bouches-du-Rhône can get stuffed, to be honest, and take the Gard with it.
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If anyone can tell me how there wasn't a red at the start of this match I'll admit that I don't understand the game. I see nothing in that as mitigation and yet it wasn't even a yellow. To have that call in the same weekend as the Curry one is ridiculous and shows how badly implemented these head collision rules are.
Rob Kearney on Irish TV said it should definitely have been a red. They also said Finn Russell should have had two yellows, first for the deliberate knock on and then for the late 'cheap shot'.
I can see the argument for the first but the cheap shot wasn't even a penalty.
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That's a whole region! Seems harsh. Mind you, the whole of the Bouches-du-Rhône can get stuffed, to be honest, and take the Gard with it.
It does seem harsh but er, how to put it, most of the architecture can be best described as 'ndrangheta brutalism'.
Cosenza's nice though.
As for the rugby, Scots did well to keep it tight but they had a couple of chances first half to break into space and erred; when the Boks got their chances there was no question they'd take them.
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SA have been given a lot of leniency in the breakdown which has slowed the ball for Scotland and meant the defensive line was right up on the scots.
2nd half SA sold the ref a myth in the scrum and got loads of cheap penalties on demand from it. Add in the blatant red card they dodged and I think Scotland can feel hard done by there.
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No bonus points for either team is good for Ireland, although I'd hope it doesn't come down to that.
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Where we at these days with Rugby rankings? Should Wales be losing this?
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Where we at these days with Rugby rankings? Should Wales be losing this?
Fiji are 7th and Wales are 10th. Wales have been poor for a while now, stuff off the pitch has been bad too. All in all, it won't be that surprising if Fiji win this comfortably.
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The problem for Fiji is they’ve lost their fly half just before the tournament. He has been a massive find and completely changed them. He’s a massive loss.
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Fiji are 7th and Wales are 10th. Wales have been poor for a while now, stuff off the pitch has been bad too. All in all, it won't be that surprising if Fiji win this comfortably.
Was watching on VM1 but had to switch over to UTV. Fiona Hayes might know her rugby, but her Limerick accent was making my ears bleed.
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Fiji are 7th and Wales are 10th. Wales have been poor for a while now, stuff off the pitch has been bad too. All in all, it won't be that surprising if Fiji win this comfortably.
Was watching on VM1 but had to switch over to UTV. Fiona Hayes might know her rugby, but her Limerick accent was making my ears bleed.
I can't get UTV so I've had to mute it. I could cope with her accent if she didn't feel the need to talk so much!
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Was watching on VM1 but had to switch over to UTV. Fiona Hayes might know her rugby, but her Limerick accent was making my ears bleed.
I can't get UTV so I've had to mute it. I could cope with her accent if she didn't feel the need to talk so much!
Yeah, she talks a lot as well to compound it. A really dreadful voice to have on co-comms.
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Biggar absolutely tearing into one of the Welsh players there at the whistle.
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Biggar absolutely tearing into one of the Welsh players there at the whistle.
Biggar is such a gobshite.
Fiji should have had a penalty try there.
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Very unfair yellow there for Fiji. Ref was overly kind to Wales a few minutes ago when he gave them a warning instead of a card.
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Ref astonishingly lenient on Wales and pretty harsh on Fiji.
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Wales don’t deserve this, certainly not this margin.
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That's twice Wales should have had a yellow and the ref just warned them. Very very lucky.
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Good to see premier league standards of refereeing in action
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Stupid Fiji!
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Jammy Welsh fuckers.
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Wales have robbed that. How they only got one yellow card
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Wales will be very happy with that. Fiji definitely the better team, some very questionable decisions from the ref that went Wales' way.
At least Fiji get 2 points from it. Sets up an interesting group now.
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How Wales only got one yellow there - persistent foul play even after the first yellow.
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Should have had at least one penalty try for Fiji if not 2.
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Sounds like the French authorities managed to fuck it up royally for thousands of people last night. A mate was there last night took him over 90 minutes to enter the stadium, 45 minutes at half time to get a beer, hundreds of toilets were out of use and after the game the Metro wasn’t running.
A mate of mine sells hotel rooms to some of the big sports travel businesses and he was at the game last night. He’d heard rumours of a shambles so got there early but it still took him an hour to get him. Some England fans behind him took 2.5 hours to get in and only arrived in their seats at half time.
Maybe they should have recruited the Villa turnstile and catering teams this weekend?
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Similar shambles at the Ireland game in Bordeaux. https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rugby-fans-roasted-in-bordeaux-heat-as-stadium-staff-slowly-opened-water-bottles-one-by-one/a377028141.html
The ex-players on the TV over here also very critical of the way the national anthems have been handled.
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It was the same at the Euros, CL Final and now the RWC, somehow they landed the Olympic Games, god help anyone going there.
RWC 2007 I went over for 2 games and the final in Paris and it was impeccably well run.
Weirdly it doesn’t seem to affect domestic sport in France so what is it that the minister and ministry of sport are doing or telling the authorities to do that’s so different and why?
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While we’re at it, let’s talk about the pundits and commentators on ITV.
Awful, I’d rather have Jonathan Davies whining on and Brian Moore spitting over everyone than the crew they had on last night.
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The ex-players on the TV over here also very critical of the way the national anthems have been handled.
I'm hoping they drop the anthems once everyone has been butchered once. I understand having a live choir at the first game, it was a bit of a celebration or whatever, but as far as I can see it's just a recording at all the other games. No need for it at all, just use the standard instrumental and let players/fans sing it themselves.
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While we’re at it, let’s talk about the pundits and commentators on ITV.
Awful, I’d rather have Jonathan Davies whining on and Brian Moore spitting over everyone than the crew they had on last night.
Jonathan Davies, I'd forgotten about him but he has one the most annoying voices I've ever heard.
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While we’re at it, let’s talk about the pundits and commentators on ITV.
Awful, I’d rather have Jonathan Davies whining on and Brian Moore spitting over everyone than the crew they had on last night.
Jonathan Davies, I'd forgotten about him but he has one the most annoying voices I've ever heard.
“Nuuuuuuumbers”
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While we’re at it, let’s talk about the pundits and commentators on ITV.
Awful, I’d rather have Jonathan Davies whining on and Brian Moore spitting over everyone than the crew they had on last night.
Of the team they have for commentary I like Monye and I'm fine with Kay but the rest are shit, at least they didn't get Healey in.
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If anyone can tell me how there wasn't a red at the start of this match I'll admit that I don't understand the game. I see nothing in that as mitigation and yet it wasn't even a yellow. To have that call in the same weekend as the Curry one is ridiculous and shows how badly implemented these head collision rules are.
I think that it should have been a red.
Still don’t understand why Curry’s was a red when the bloke basically landed on him
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If anyone can tell me how there wasn't a red at the start of this match I'll admit that I don't understand the game. I see nothing in that as mitigation and yet it wasn't even a yellow. To have that call in the same weekend as the Curry one is ridiculous and shows how badly implemented these head collision rules are.
I think that it should have been a red.
Still don’t understand why Curry’s was a red when the bloke basically landed on him
And me, I'm not too sure what he's meant to do?
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3 Australians will decide Tom Curry’s fate this evening. Seems legit.
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To be fair, given the inordinately large resources available to England compared to the other Rugby playing nations there should be some handicaps in place to address the imbalance, like some unfair bans or the like.
Although having run by and for the middle/upper classes in this country is a start I suppose,
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3 Australians will decide Tom Curry’s fate this evening. Seems legit.
and he's been given a 3 match ban.
Kriel on the otherhand was cleared by panel and having dodged punishment during the game is also able to dodge a citing so is free to play. How can anyone watch those 2 incidents that think one is worth, effectively, 4 games and the other is worth nothing?
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Uruguay with the opening try against France, exceptional kick to create it as well, what a start for them.
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france down to 14, definite yellow, could see it being upgraded, the saving grace is that there's a 2nd tackler.
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Another weird decision from the refs there. The French player made zero attempt to wrap when he tackled. Regardless off the height he hit the guy at, he's not tackling properly. Yellow stays a yellow though.
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Another weird decision from the refs there. The French player made zero attempt to wrap when he tackled. Regardless off the height he hit the guy at, he's not tackling properly. Yellow stays a yellow though.
It's all about the 2nd tackler, the tucked arm made it a borderline one though.
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Another weird decision from the refs there. The French player made zero attempt to wrap when he tackled. Regardless off the height he hit the guy at, he's not tackling properly. Yellow stays a yellow though.
It's all about the 2nd tackler, the tucked arm made it a borderline one though.
The 2nd tackler is mitigating factor for the high tackle, but the fact he's never wrapping with that arm means it's just an illegal tackle, regardless of the height. Very strange decision.
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Another weird decision from the refs there. The French player made zero attempt to wrap when he tackled. Regardless off the height he hit the guy at, he's not tackling properly. Yellow stays a yellow though.
It's all about the 2nd tackler, the tucked arm made it a borderline one though.
The 2nd tackler is mitigating factor for the high tackle, but the fact he's never wrapping with that arm means it's just an illegal tackle, regardless of the height. Very strange decision.
Indeed, but when you have the player already being tackled it will always have a big impact on the decision. I think it was as orange as it gets but I can't say it was clearly the wrong call. It's not the same as a few last weekend where there was no mitigation and they still backed out of the red despite having set a precedent with Curry.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying the game, massive shame that Uruguay conceded such a soft try after getting themselves back into the game. Uruguay 5 and 9 have been superb and the back 3 all look capable of making big metres.
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De Groot yellow card upgraded to red for not wrapping in a tackle. Wasn't watching so can't say how it compares to yesterday's, but the Fench guy who made no attempt to wrap in a tackle got away with a yellow.
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Wales only winning 14-3 against Portugal at half time. I know they've put out a 2nd string side, including 76 year old Halfpenny at FB, but you'd think they'd be doing better than that against Portugal.
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Wales only winning 14-3 against Portugal at half time. I know they've put out a 2nd string side, including 76 year old Halfpenny at FB, but you'd think they'd be doing better than that against Portugal.
I think they're pretty lucky to be that far ahead, nothing between the teams in the first half. Dickson did his best to side with Wales on every 50/50 though, if there's a ref in the sport who's more of a blatant starfucker it's news to me.
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Ha, after i call out Dickson he calls advantage over and then changes his mind and apologises when Wales knock-on, fucking cheating little weasel.
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Not sure why Wales are playing in our third kit from last season, but I'm enjoying this Portuguese performance.
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Not sure why Wales are playing in our third kit from last season, but I'm enjoying this Portuguese performance.
Same, I think they deserve something here, even if just a losing bonus point.
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Portugal were great, only 1 of their squad plays premiership rugby. That red card is ludicrous as well, it was a harsh enough yellow.
What with Australia v Wales coming up it’s about now I start to lament the fact there can only be one loser.
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Portugal were great, only 1 of their squad plays premiership rugby. That red card is ludicrous as well, it was a harsh enough yellow.
What with Australia v Wales coming up it’s about now I start to lament the fact there can only be one loser.
Agree on the red card, that was ridiculously harsh.
Moving on, Ireland have definitely had the benefit of the doubt so far against Tonga. thought letting Hansen take a 'quick' line out 10-15 seconds after the ball had gone out, when there were plenty of forwards in the line and when he was 15yards behind the mark was an interesting decision. That all the commentators did was praise him for his quick thinking was worryingly biased as well.
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The penalty for the charge down on Lowe is horribly soft and gifted Ireland a try from nothing.
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The penalty for the charge down on Lowe is horribly soft and gifted Ireland a try from nothing.
It was very late. Fair I'd say.
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This is really running down Peter O'Mahony's yellow card.
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The penalty for the charge down on Lowe is horribly soft and gifted Ireland a try from nothing.
It was very late. Fair I'd say.
Not for me because he jumped before the ball was kicked.
Looked like a forward pass to Doris for the Beirne try as well.
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I now xcount 8 Irish penalties in the 10-12 minutes since o'mahony get his yellow, Barnes needs to get a grip on that.
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Good result for Ireland, but that's the two easier games out of the way. We've come through them without any injuries (maybe Bealham?). Looking forward to next week now, will be a completely different challenge.
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20 mins gone in SA v Romania and the Boks already have their bonus point
(https://frinkiac.com/meme/S06E15/583916.jpg?b64lines=IFNUT1AhIEhFJ1MgQUxSRUFEWSBERUFEIQo=)
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Reinach was like playing with a cheat code, they took pity on Romania and subbed him off after 45.
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Last night Ireland had a points difference of 117, and South Africa were only 15. They're probably doing to narrow that gap if not pass it out after this game.
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Fiji should have a big lead here, not quite ticked for them.
Australia are shit.
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Fiji are so frustrating. If they could play a whole match like they weren't trying to play 7s, they'd be a real threat to everyone. They were taking sensible points for a while there but inevitably they opt to kick to touch and end up losing possession. They'll probably still win this, but they could be comfortably ahead by now.
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Suffice to say, hon the Fiji. Every World Cup needs at least one of the established nations to get a bloody nose.
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Fiji are so frustrating. If they could play a whole match like they weren't trying to play 7s, they'd be a real threat to everyone. They were taking sensible points for a while there but inevitably they opt to kick to touch and end up losing possession. They'll probably still win this, but they could be comfortably ahead by now.
The ref has taken 14 points off them with a couple of poor decisions and he gifted 5 to Australia. Even now he's letting the Australia penalty count stack up without warning.
That's 3 big guys coming on for Fiji, I reckon they've added a fair amount of extra weight with those changes.
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How many more penalties are Australia going to concede?
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How many more penalties are Australia going to concede?
I can't believe the ref hasn't lost his patience with them yet, they've just been giving them away steadily all game. There have been 2 little flurries where you'd expect to see a yellow and he hasn't even warned them either time.
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Yet there was a warning for Fiji despite giving away fewer than half of the number Australia have.
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And as I hit post on that Australia give another one away with no consequence.
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What's with the sparkly disco pants the Aussies are wearing?
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Brilliant stuff, well done Fiji.
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Yes, brilliant. Is this as big as say ROI beating England in a football game?
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Yes, brilliant. Is this as big as say ROI beating England in a football game?
I'd say a bit bigger.
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Yes, brilliant. Is this as big as say ROI beating England in a football game?
Seeing as you haven't beaten us in a competitive game since 1980, I'd say it's about as big as England beating ROI in a football game.
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Yes, brilliant. Is this as big as say ROI beating England in a football game?
Seeing as you haven't beaten us in a competitive game since 1980, I'd say it's about as big as England beating ROI in a football game.
😂 I knew you’ll bite.
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It's 69 years since Fiji beat Australia, so it's a pretty big deal. I hope Fiji don't come to rue that missed kick at the end.
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But then there hasn't been a competitive England v ROI game since 1991.
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surely england's last game in euro 2016?
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England played Wales, Slovakia and Russia the group in Euro 2016
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Yes, brilliant. Is this as big as say ROI beating England in a football game?
Seeing as you haven't beaten us in a competitive game since 1980, I'd say it's about as big as England beating ROI in a football game.
😂 I knew you’ll bite.
Cheers, I welcomed the chance to again mention England's 43 years (and counting) winless streak in competitive games against us. Hopefully it also gets to 69 years, it will make that long-awaited English victory all the sweeter for you. :)
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Be nice if you'd give us a sporting chance by qualifying for a World Cup or Euros more than a couple of times in that time! :)
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Top work Fiji. Marvellous.
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England played Wales, Slovakia and Russia the group in Euro 2016
and ROIceland after that
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Jonny Wilkinson on ITV describing the art of drop goals quite frankly boring me to tears. But hey ho I suppose he’s knows what he’s on about.
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Jonny Wilkinson on ITV describing the art of drop goals quite frankly boring me to tears. But hey ho I suppose he’s knows what he’s on about.
Fitting as he led them to the most boring world cup win in history.
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Be nice if you'd give us a sporting chance by qualifying for a World Cup or Euros more than a couple of times in that time! :)
With your record against us in tournaments, be careful what you wish for. ;)
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Jonny Wilkinson on ITV describing the art of drop goals quite frankly boring me to tears. But hey ho I suppose he’s knows what he’s on about.
In my mind hr's the Michael Owen of rugby i.e. talented player but a boring personality. In general, the punditry on Irish TV tends to be much better and in-depth than on ITV/BBC with the likes of Rob Keaney, Matt Williams and Andrew Trimble on Virgin Media.
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Good first few minutes from England but then some really soft defence to lead to the Japan equalising penalty.
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Japan are the better side at the moment.
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Discipline is creaking.
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England have lost their basics right now, tackling and breakdown work is poor and we can't find anything with ball in hand. It's the same problems as in the warm-up games.
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Try, hopefully that settles us.
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Poor from Japan on their own line there.
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Poor from Japan on their own line there.
Good from England to shift the point of the attack though, not often you see prop pick by the line and then shift the ball out 1.
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I wish we would stop kicking the ball away.
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Idiotic from May - ill discipline is kicking in.
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Stop kicking the fucking ball.
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Both sides seem very wasteful in possession
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It's like watching a bunch of kids all chasing the same ball and then dropping it. Both Japan and England looking very sloppy.
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We look like a team that hasn't been told how they're supposed to play so we get quick ball but stand deep and get met on the gainline, or we try to crash through and then don't have any idea what to do next.
What it leads to, inevitably, is Ford making decisions for himself and he goes to the boot because there's no pattern.
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Not great - need to improve.
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I love how Andrew Trimble always has his little clip board of notes. Liked him as a player, like him as a pundit now too.
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Not great - need to improve.
Agreed, last week papered over some very clear cracks but this is us back to all the same problems we had in the summer and the 6N.
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Looked like two poor teams butting heads with very average handling skills and lots of dull arsed kicking.
England in the first minute refusing opportunity to try and lay down a marker and reverting to cautious type was annoying.
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Rob Kearney very critical of England and their complete lack of desire to attack.
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They just don’t look like they’re connected at all.
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Very scruffy from England. We are going to get hammered if we play like this against a really good side. Too many simple errors.
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Very scruffy from England. We are going to get hammered if we play like this against a really good side. Too many simple errors.
I was just thinking they're lucky the draw was made when it was. Any other pool and they'd be in big trouble.
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We are our own worst enemy. Such poor decision making at times.
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Wilkinson summed it up well, we look like a team that haven't had time to run through how we we want to be playing. I'd argue that it's more that we haven't made time for it.
There are 3 ways you work on the attack:
The simplest is for phase 1 and 2 from the set piece, not having this part trained is criminal.
Next you focus on breaking the field so something like pick and go tight once or twice and then go wide), this is how you create space in open play.
Finally you work on your game changing plays, which includes things like chipped kicks, right now England are going to this almost immediately, which is why there's no structure.
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This is absolutely atrocious.
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Don’t worry Youngs will be on in a minute to kick it away a bit more…Smith might get 6/7 minutes at the end of the game
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Finally you work on your game changing plays, which includes things like chipped kicks, right now England are going to this almost immediately, which is why there's no structure.
Irish pundits made a similar point at half time. Said it looks like England have made the decision to rely on their kicking game, which is why they're not trying to do anything else. But then the problem is that their kicking game is being executed quite poorly.
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Stop the fucking grubber kicks.
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Stop the fucking grubber kicks.
Don’t understand the game really but is Ford playing like a twat?
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Last week was definitely a fluke
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Last week was definitely a fluke
Argentina were more shit than England. Japan are giving them a run for their money tonight too.
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Finally you work on your game changing plays, which includes things like chipped kicks, right now England are going to this almost immediately, which is why there's no structure.
Irish pundits made a similar point at half time. Said it looks like England have made the decision to rely on their kicking game, which is why they're not trying to do anything else. But then the problem is that their kicking game is being executed quite poorly.
The problem with the execution is that this sort of game plan is really predictable and easy to defend if you don't have the threat before it. Japan are just sitting in with 2 fullbacks and a floating defender and knowing that 1 dominant tackle and we'll shit ourselves and kick it back to them.
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Well that's one way to score I guess, poor from Japan who seem to not understand the laws there.
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Not sure what’s the matter with you boys and girls, England are winning this quite easily?
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Not sure what’s the matter with you boys and girls, England are winning this quite easily?
It's dreadful stuff to watch, even if England did score from a header.
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Not sure what’s the matter with you boys and girls, England are winning this quite easily?
Those 2 massive line breaks by Japan are why I'm concerned.
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Here comes Youngs as predicted.
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Here comes Youngs as predicted.
Yay, that'll stop the ball being kicked away!
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Stop kicking the fucking ball.
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I don't watch a lot of rugby but I don't think I've ever seen a game like this.
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Southgate / Borthwick - cut from the same cloth, dull unimaginative, weak minded
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Genuine question for the rugby officianado's, who determines the tactics used in the game? Even I can see that there's too much kicking.
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Southgate / Borthwick - cut from the same cloth, dull unimaginative, weak minded
Spot on.
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That should be it - kick was actually smart there.
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I don't watch a lot of rugby but I don't think I've ever seen a game like this.
This England team is the most poorly coached I've ever seen us, even a hint of a gameplan and we'd have put 40 points on what is a very limited Japan side. That the only reason we have a meaningful lead is one of the biggest flukes you'll ever see can't disguise that Borthwick has made us far worse than we were under Jones.
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Genuine question for the rugby officianado's, who determines the tactics used in the game? Even I can see that there's too much kicking.
I don't think it's tactics so much as it's a complete lack of ability to do anything else.
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Argentina’s defence holding out…WTF😂
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Genuine question for the rugby officianado's, who determines the tactics used in the game? Even I can see that there's too much kicking.
I don't think it's tactics so much as it's a complete lack of ability to do anything else.
I disagree. I think the plan is to carry the ball but if we don't break the line to kick and reset. The problem is that has become a crutch and now we have 3-4 players who's thinking is "is it on, no, then hoof". No attempt to carry in and take another phase, no thought to change things up, just robotic playing for territory.
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Ended better - Smith did really nicely.
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Scruffy, lacking in creativity but job done and a bonus point. Better last 10 minutes or so.
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Smith made a massive difference, the first player in there who decided to try to make things happen.
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Smith made a massive difference, the first player in there who decided to try to make things happen.
Yep he did really nicely and added real energy into the team.
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Painfully turgid especially with the talent at our disposal. Looks like creativity has been coached out of them.
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I suspect they’re looking at stats and reading them wrong when it comes to kicking. It works if you use it as a variation - if you do it all the time teams will work you out.
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Matt Dawson fapping himself blind on BBCs live text. No idea what game he was actually watching but that's the most complete performance he's seen from Borthwick's England, apparently.
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I suspect they’re looking at stats and reading them wrong when it comes to kicking. It works if you use it as a variation - if you do it all the time teams will work you out.
yep, exactly, it's something you go to if you're not going forward after a few phases, England seem to have forgotten the bold bit.
I think that gets backed up by the fact that when the heat and pressure got to Japan and they dropped the intensity suddenly England were keeping ball in hand. It's easy to put it down to purely the change in personnel but I think it's more fundamental than that.
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Matt Dawson fapping himself blind on BBCs live text. No idea what game he was actually watching but that's the most complete performance he's seen from Borthwick's England, apparently.
He was a very good 9 but everything I've seen of him since confirms he's a fucking moron.
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Matt Dawson fapping himself blind on BBCs live text. No idea what game he was actually watching but that's the most complete performance he's seen from Borthwick's England, apparently.
He was a very good 9 but everything I've seen of him since confirms he's a fucking moron.
Absolutely. I completely avoid any of his articles, I just can't handle the sheer bollocks he comes out with.
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Matt Dawson fapping himself blind on BBCs live text. No idea what game he was actually watching but that's the most complete performance he's seen from Borthwick's England, apparently.
To be fair that wouldn't be especially difficult.
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This England team is the most poorly coached I've ever seen us, even a hint of a gameplan and we'd have put 40 points on what is a very limited Japan side. That the only reason we have a meaningful lead is one of the biggest flukes you'll ever see can't disguise that Borthwick has made us far worse than we were under Jones.
Even pre-match, Matt Williams picked out a few plays from the Argentina game and said that the players didn't look like they knew what they were supposed to be doing. Basically thought that England were a badly coached team, and said that the attack coach should be embarrassed to be picking up his pay cheque from the RFU.
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It's interesting that Ireland's current attack coach, and head coach, are both English.
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I watch Rugby in the same way imagine some Rugby fans watch Football, sometimes engaged but other times mocking and scornful, but I think that's also because by and large for my entire life England have always been shit to watch, even when they were good.
And even with my untrained eye I can see it's not the case elsewhere, as I've enjoyed watching games they don't play in. It really feels like it's engrained in the culture to focus entirely on the physicality of the game at the expense of any kind of flair.
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I watch Rugby in the same way imagine some Rugby fans watch Football, sometimes engaged but other times mocking and scornful, but I think that's also because by and large for my entire life England have always been shit to watch, even when they were good.
And even with my untrained eye I can see it's not the case elsewhere, as I've enjoyed watching games they don't play in. It really feels like it's engrained in the culture to focus entirely on the physicality of the game at the expense of any kind of flair.
England rugby suffers from the same problem as the football team does and cricket team did until recently, avoiding defeat is more important than winning so all the coaching, selection and development gets focused on ideas to make us harder to score against and it makes the entire thing sterile and boring. What Bazball has done in the cricket has shown that by focusing on scoring more than the opposition (as opposed to making the opposition score less than us) we've taken the same group of players and created an exciting and dynamic team that people can be inspired by. Rugby and football have the potential todo the same but it needs a change in attitude at the very top.
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As I thought Paul, and you can draw parallels with the attitudes we've endured at the Villa compared to what we see now.
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I watch Rugby in the same way imagine some Rugby fans watch Football, sometimes engaged but other times mocking and scornful, but I think that's also because by and large for my entire life England have always been shit to watch, even when they were good.
And even with my untrained eye I can see it's not the case elsewhere, as I've enjoyed watching games they don't play in. It really feels like it's engrained in the culture to focus entirely on the physicality of the game at the expense of any kind of flair.
If it's excitement you want, Portugal is where it's at. Not a second wasted, 110% effort, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen for the full game. That said, it was like watching a Villa U21 team against a top PL team, they fill your heart with promise but the result is pretty predictable. Like football, money is king and there's little chance for 2nd tier countries to grow and develop when new competitions are designed for maximum revenue rather than the good and future of the game.
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I watch Rugby in the same way imagine some Rugby fans watch Football, sometimes engaged but other times mocking and scornful, but I think that's also because by and large for my entire life England have always been shit to watch, even when they were good.
And even with my untrained eye I can see it's not the case elsewhere, as I've enjoyed watching games they don't play in. It really feels like it's engrained in the culture to focus entirely on the physicality of the game at the expense of any kind of flair.
If it's excitement you want, Portugal is where it's at. Not a second wasted, 110% effort, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen for the full game. That said, it was like watching a Villa U21 team against a top PL team, they fill your heart with promise but the result is pretty predictable. Like football, money is king and there's little chance for 2nd tier countries to grow and develop when new competitions are designed for maximum revenue rather than the good and future of the game.
The key for teams like Portugal (and even more established sides like Fiji, Tonga, etc) is for them to get more regular games against the top sides and that isn't a fault of the format of competitions (although reforming the 6N and championship would help) but rather the process of setting up tours and friendlies which see the same 9-10 countries playing each other and the 'smaller' nations struggling to find games because of it. During the game last night they gave a stat of the number of games each team had played since the last world cup and England were more than double that of Japan. Covid played a part in that but even without that England, etc have far more opportunities to give out caps and try things than the teams who are trying to catch up.
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I seem to remember a brief comment on a podcast in reference to the Rugby scene in Portugal improving. Is that the case?
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I seem to remember a brief comment on a podcast in reference to the Rugby scene in Portugal improving. Is that the case?
I think they're the fastest improving nation in the world right now, even 4 years ago they were nowhere near the standard needed for the world cup and this weekend they made Wales earn a win that would've been routine in the past. In any other group I could've seen them sneaking a win, which would be an incredible achievement.
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The inclusion of club teams in competitions also helps. You could see the difference in Japan and Argentina when they had teams in Super Rugby. And now you can see it with Fiji, Samoa/Tonga having teams play there.
Georgia are a team that have long been neglected by World Rugby. They won't let them into the 6 Nations, but if they can have South African teams playing in Europe why not invest some money in a Georgian club side so the players don't have to move to French clubs.
If any of these tier 2/3 nations ever achieve anything it feels like its inspite of World Rugby rather than because of them.
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I’ve long been a believer that the 6N needs to introduce relegation, over a 3 year period and whoever averages the lowest points tally over the 3 years drops to Tier 2 6 Nations and up comes say a Georgia and the cycle starts again so every 3 years the lowest average points gets you relegated. Tier 2 6 Nations would benefit Portugal, Romania and Georgia and Northern hemisphere rugby hugely.
It would also be hilarious to see Wales get the R.
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The inclusion of club teams in competitions also helps. You could see the difference in Japan and Argentina when they had teams in Super Rugby. And now you can see it with Fiji, Samoa/Tonga having teams play there.
Georgia are a team that have long been neglected by World Rugby. They won't let them into the 6 Nations, but if they can have South African teams playing in Europe why not invest some money in a Georgian club side so the players don't have to move to French clubs.
If any of these tier 2/3 nations ever achieve anything it feels like its inspite of World Rugby rather than because of them.
Black Lion (georgian champions) are in the challenge cup this season.
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We were talking about that last night. How far, if at all, are Georgia behind Italy. I'd be interested to see a test between the two.
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I watch Rugby in the same way imagine some Rugby fans watch Football, sometimes engaged but other times mocking and scornful, but I think that's also because by and large for my entire life England have always been shit to watch, even when they were good.
And even with my untrained eye I can see it's not the case elsewhere, as I've enjoyed watching games they don't play in. It really feels like it's engrained in the culture to focus entirely on the physicality of the game at the expense of any kind of flair.
If it's excitement you want, Portugal is where it's at. Not a second wasted, 110% effort, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen for the full game. That said, it was like watching a Villa U21 team against a top PL team, they fill your heart with promise but the result is pretty predictable. Like football, money is king and there's little chance for 2nd tier countries to grow and develop when new competitions are designed for maximum revenue rather than the good and future of the game.
The key for teams like Portugal (and even more established sides like Fiji, Tonga, etc) is for them to get more regular games against the top sides and that isn't a fault of the format of competitions (although reforming the 6N and championship would help) but rather the process of setting up tours and friendlies which see the same 9-10 countries playing each other and the 'smaller' nations struggling to find games because of it. During the game last night they gave a stat of the number of games each team had played since the last world cup and England were more than double that of Japan. Covid played a part in that but even without that England, etc have far more opportunities to give out caps and try things than the teams who are trying to catch up.
That's pretty much what I've been hearing, Paul. Apparently next year (?) there will be a new tournament with the 6 nations and the best from the southern hemisphere. Same old, same old. Of course it's great to see but it's a bit of a closed shop for Tier 2 countries trying to grow the game - in Portugal's case, almost from scratch (again). A proper, not half arsed European Championship, even if only every 4 years would be so much more beneficial to the game down here at least.
This time it feels a bit different, real progress has been made and the foundations have been laid. Sadly, as you point out, without getting to play the bigger teams, construction will be put on hold.
Until then I'll just enjoy the games with hopefully a victory against Georgia in the final game. That's where we're setting our hopes/dreams.
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I wonder could they do some kind of Lions thing where a touring side made up of Tier 1 players went and played Georgia and Romania during the summer. Put some restrictions of the players who can be selected for the "Lions", like less than x International caps or something like that. You'd still get a decent team together and it would guarantee the tier 2 teams get to play "better" teams on a regular basis. We had an "Emerging Ireland" tour last year but they went to South Africa and played club sides.
I guess the long and short of it is there's lots of things World Rugby could be doing to build up these sides if they really wanted to.
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Dupont has a fractured cheekbone
Waiting for medical advice as to whether he'll be available should France make the semis or final
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Big blow that.
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Bernard Jackman on Irish TV last night mentioned someone playing a week or so after surgery on a fractured jaw. Said he played against medical advice, but he did play. Still, I wouldn't expect to see Dupont unless they make the final, and even then you'd question it.
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It really depends on the severity of it. I broke my jaw (after being kicked in the face charging down a kick) about 20 years ago (lost a couple of teeth as well) and it was about 2-3 weeks before I could eat comfortably and 5 before all the pain was completely gone and I was happy to play. I can't remember exactly but I think the hospital gave me 5-6 weeks as expected recovery time. If he's done similar that would see him available just in time for the final.
I know of people who've come back from jaw and cheek fractures a lot sooner though, I just didn't see the point of risking it.
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I think it'll bring up the question of player welfare, depending of course on the medical advice. Especially when a lot of the changes to laws have supposedly been designed around protecting players from head injuries.
Of course we could save everyone the problem by beating them in the QF 😉
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Of course we could save everyone the problem by beating them in the QF 😉
I'd probably prefer if we didn't have to (in the QF at least).
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Of course we could save everyone the problem by beating them in the QF 😉
I'd probably prefer if we didn't have to (in the QF at least).
I'm 50/50 on it, to be honest. It's going to be tough either way. And we'll probably have to beat them both at some point.
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I don’t know if at his age he can find his mojo again, but it feels like Eddie Jones should have taken a longer break post the England job. He’s showing exactly the same tired tropes he rolled out with us. It’s always building to a future that never arrives.
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Hon Portugal!
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I really hope they can hold on for this, they've been easily the best side from what I've seen.
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Boo!
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I'd love a replay of where the ball crossed the line, the Portugal players were convinced it went over the tryline first. Silly penalty that led to it though, that's the inexperience that hurts smaller nations.
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Oh Portugal ☹️ what a time to be sensible at the end there choosing to kick.
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Awww, what a shame for the kicker, he never looked confidant of that one.
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Gutted. Lots of positives to take from the game but right now it feels like a defeat. God knows what would have happened here if Guedes had scored with the final kick. Oh well, they gave it a right go and it's a very young team. The experience will no doubt help in the future. The important thing is as a sport rugby continues to grow down here.
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Farrell and Smith are linking nicely.
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Accounting for the clear "it's only Chile" this has still been much better from England, mostly because Smith and Arundell are looking for the line rather than worrying about territory. Dan has been good as well, he just looks like a modern hooker in a way that George just doesn't.
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Have enjoyed this England performance, shame they will go back to the usual dirge and then boot it away next game
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Smith, Farrell and Arundell all did great in the backs.
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Is Arundell unselectable for England after the World Cup?
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Is Arundell unselectable for England after the World Cup?
I think so, yeah. The rule was only relaxed for the teams that folded, and presumably only for the WC.
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That’s a blow.
I know it’s only Chile, but some comments I’ve seen basically still having a go at England are a bit ridiculous. I think you can acknowledge they’ve done quite nicely for 5 out of 6 halves this World Cup and also understand there are much sterner tests to come which will ultimately prove whether we are progressing or not.
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I dunno, I think England could make it all the way to the SF or Final without having to beat an actual good team, so it's very difficult to judge anything. But they're winning, regardless, which is what matters.
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Is Arundell unselectable for England after the World Cup?
I think so, yeah. The rule was only relaxed for the teams that folded, and presumably only for the WC.
Have the RFU made a decision yet? He was hoping to get a dispensation wasn't he? Other players have been OK if there weren't any offers from English clubs.
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Of course we could save everyone the problem by beating them in the QF 😉
I'd probably prefer if we didn't have to (in the QF at least).
I'm 50/50 on it, to be honest. It's going to be tough either way. And we'll probably have to beat them both at some point.
Let's see how we get on tonight as well as hopefully beating Scotland before we get too carried away.
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It’s a bit silly when the RFU have overseen a system that has allowed these clubs to go bust/into administration, thus reducing options for players. Losing at talent like Arundell is just daft.
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Is Arundell unselectable for England after the World Cup?
I think so, yeah. The rule was only relaxed for the teams that folded, and presumably only for the WC.
Have the RFU made a decision yet? He was hoping to get a dispensation wasn't he? Other players have been OK if there weren't any offers from English clubs.
The last I saw, which was around the 6 Nations, so maybe its changed, was that there were no plans to change the rule, and it would stay in place until at least 2024, when some negotiation thing is happening.
The dispensation for players at clubs that went bust was only for that season, so Arundell was at London Irish, who went bust between seasons, and he hasn't played for the French team yet, so he was fine for WC, not for 6 Nations.
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Silly silly stuff from Ireland right from the start.
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Line out is shite. We should do like Portugal were doing earlier and just throw it right over the top and have one of the backs collect it going forward.
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How are Ireland ahead?!
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massive try that, game on for Ireland.
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Christ, what a half!
We're very very lucky to have weathered the first half hour and only concede 3 points. Only started to look like we had any control for the last 5-10mins. And yet, it felt like we had all the posession and South Africa were happy to defend.
Long way to go.
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The most interesting thing about this game is coming soon. a 7-1 split on the bench is a massive call and if it works for SA it'll be the only thing anyone remembers about the game (based on what has happened so far).
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Kleyn coming on for SA, has 5 caps for Ireland.
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Kleyn coming on for SA, has 5 caps for Ireland.
Feels weird in this situation but I think that's a massively important change that has had a huge benefit for the pacific island teams already.
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Great try by SA.
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Kleyn coming on for SA, has 5 caps for Ireland.
Feels weird in this situation but I think that's a massively important change that has had a huge benefit for the pacific island teams already.
I've no issues with it. We've benefited massively from the residency rule, so can't complain if players go the other way.
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If they were playing at my level 4-5 of these Irish players would've had their hands stamped on by now. Grab a sock/foot/shirt as a player is trying to get out of the ruck is up there with the most annoying of all the dark arts.
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If Pollard were on South Africa would be home and dry by now.
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If Pollard were on South Africa would be home and dry by now.
Yep, the kicking has been terrible from them. The problem is Pollard has been so poor in his general play over the last few years.
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Ugh, we shouldn't have kicked that ball away.....
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Yes! Well done Ireland.
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Fantasitc win for Ireland but you got a very poor call from the ref at the end, Reinach was clearly pulled into the mess on the floor as he was getting the ball away and the ref let it go.
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Me nerves! Don't want to have to play them again. Thank f**k we have a week off before Scotland now.
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Gripping game, can't imagine watching a final that tense. Thought South Africa probably deserved to win and would snatch it in the end, but happy to grind out the result. A big win but it's still only a group game.
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Bundi Akee got MOM which is fair enough but I thought James Lowe shaded it for me. I know nothing it must be said.
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Fantasitc win for Ireland but you got a very poor call from the ref at the end, Reinach was clearly pulled into the mess on the floor as he was getting the ball away and the ref let it go.
That was an absolutely shocking call from the ref. Ireland collapsed that maul a number of times and were offside, but even then the ball was available to play. Ireland got away with one then.
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Gripping game, can't imagine watching a final that tense. Thought South Africa probably deserved to win and would snatch it in the end, but happy to grind out the result. A big win but it's still only a group game.
Yep, early days yet. Good to get another win, and against the holders, but won't mean all that much when the groups are over and the KO tension kicks in.
The longer it goes on, the more pressure and expectation Ireland will have to endure, and that's not something they've handled too well in previous world cups.
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Thought it was funny towards the end of the game when SA had a couple of plays near their own line and when the play was stopped the Irish players were in a circle doing breathing exercises.
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Thought it was funny towards the end of the game when SA had a couple of plays near their own line and when the play was stopped the Irish players were in a circle doing breathing exercises.
I'm cautiously getting a feeling, mate. There is a professionalism and efficiency about this group I haven't seen in previous teams.
No doubt we'll still make a balls of it!
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Hard to think of two less likable coaches in Gatland and Jones. I hope they figure out some way both can lose today.
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Indeed a travesty that there can only be one loser, personally I think Oz might just sneak it but it won’t be pretty.
The SA IRL game yesterday was off the scale in terms of physicality, Ireland got away with it I thought what with their messed up line outs and DeKlerk and Co missing some very kickable penalties. Not taking owt away from them, they were immense.
Bundi Aki is some player and about as Irish as a kangaroo 😂😂
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Bundee Aki used to be a right liability; a red card, or at least a binning, waiting to happen.
However, he's currently one hell of a player
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Bundee Aki used to be a right liability; a red card, or at least a binning, waiting to happen.
However, he's currently one hell of a player
A faitr assessment but he's in the form of his life at the minute.
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Yep, early days yet. Good to get another win, and against the holders, but won't mean all that much when the groups are over and the KO tension kicks in.
The longer it goes on, the more pressure and expectation Ireland will have to endure, and that's not something they've handled too well in previous world cups.
A massive win in that it likely means playing Scotland, NZ and Wales (if they do the business today) to get to the final. Nothing certain with any of those but that probably would be an easier path to the final than on the other side of the draw. I wouldn't fancy meeting SA again so hopefully someone else beats them along the way.
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Won't mean anything to anyone outside Ireland but I hate Daire O'Brien as host. Jacqui Hurley is by far the superior choice.
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Australia are very poor.
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Australia are very poor.
That’s being kind. Shit is what they actually are.
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Australia look a lot like England did a year ago, funny that.
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Australia look a lot like England did a year ago, funny that.
Jones looks like an old man who’s fallen out of love with the game and lost interest in it. Sacked within weeks without a doubt at this rate.
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Australia look a lot like England did a year ago, funny that.
Jones looks like an old man who’s fallen out of love with the game and lost interest in it. Sacked within weeks without a doubt at this rate.
Yeah I maintain that he should have left a bigger gap before going back to coaching. I don’t know whether he still has it in him or not, but going back so soon has just resulted in an extension of the end of his England reign.
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Is Arundell unselectable for England after the World Cup?
I think so, yeah. The rule was only relaxed for the teams that folded, and presumably only for the WC.
Have the RFU made a decision yet? He was hoping to get a dispensation wasn't he? Other players have been OK if there weren't any offers from English clubs.
The last I saw, which was around the 6 Nations, so maybe its changed, was that there were no plans to change the rule, and it would stay in place until at least 2024, when some negotiation thing is happening.
The dispensation for players at clubs that went bust was only for that season, so Arundell was at London Irish, who went bust between seasons, and he hasn't played for the French team yet, so he was fine for WC, not for 6 Nations.
Telegraph reporting today he’s expected to be allowed to continue for England in the 6 Nations.
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My one hope for tonight's game was that someone received a morale sapping heavy defeat.
Bad luck Eddie.
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So can I assume my QF games in Marseilles will be England v Fiji and Wales v Argentina / Japan ?
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This will be the first time Australia haven't made it out of the group stage. Also, it's not inconceivable that 3 if not 4 of the semi-finalists will be Northern Hemisphere teams. There's never been more than 2 in the semi-finals of any previous World Cup.
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No sympathy whatsoever for Australia, Jones is a busted flush and they deserve everything they’ve gotten by appointing the dinosaur.
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No sympathy whatsoever for Australia, Jones is a busted flush and they deserve everything they’ve gotten by appointing the dinosaur.
He's been interviewed for the Japan job according to reports here.
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Yeah I maintain that he should have left a bigger gap before going back to coaching. I don’t know whether he still has it in him or not, but going back so soon has just resulted in an extension of the end of his England reign.
Matt Williams was saying on Irish TV before the game that the understanding in Australia was that Dave Rennie would take the team to the World Cup and Jones would take over after and start rebuilding again for the next World Cup. So it seems the plan was for him to have longer away from the game. But then they sacked Rennie and brought Jones in, who then sacked all the coaches and changed all the systems, left loads of experienced players at home, and headed off to the WC with a bunch of inexperienced players. And this has been the result .
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Australia have been dire. Poor at every set piece, poor at the breakdown and poor kicking. There is something very amusing about Aussie fans walking out early.
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Eddie are you ok…are you ok Eddie
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And another try for Wales.
Oh dear, never mind, what a pity.
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No sympathy whatsoever for Australia, Jones is a busted flush and they deserve everything they’ve gotten by appointing the dinosaur.
I don’t know if he’s a dinosaur. He’s been quite innovative, but he’s lost his way. He might be a busted flush, but he has been a hell of a coach.
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Australian rugby is a perfect storm right now, an RFU that are clueless, a team with huge gaps in quality, particularly in the front 5 and a manager who looks like a broken man.
Today was an abysmal performance given they needed to win to give themselves a chance of the QF.
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No sympathy whatsoever for Australia, Jones is a busted flush and they deserve everything they’ve gotten by appointing the dinosaur.
I don’t know if he’s a dinosaur. He’s been quite innovative, but he’s lost his way. He might be a busted flush, but he has been a hell of a coach.
Agree Paul.
He’s also in charge of the poorest Australia I’ve seen (going back to the 70’s)
I think rugby union is in a terrible state, player wise, for them
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No sympathy whatsoever for Australia, Jones is a busted flush and they deserve everything they’ve gotten by appointing the dinosaur.
I don’t know if he’s a dinosaur. He’s been quite innovative, but he’s lost his way. He might be a busted flush, but he has been a hell of a coach.
He was innovative 5 years ago, he perseveres with his favourites just like Southgate, he must have an amazing interview technique to land these jobs, according to many he’s already interviewed with Japan despite being under contract to Aus. Some Aussie press this morning is quite interesting, a well what did you expect attitude due to the game not being watched in Australia, nobody plays rugby and nobody cares about it. I find that hard to believe.
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The Aussies I work with are seething, Jon.
I don't even like rugby that much, but it's utterly hilarious to see.
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Yep same with a couple of my Aussie mates, they’re blaming the Aussie RFU and Jones for leaving out some great players from his RWC squad. Like I said, he picks his favourites, his safe hands players like he did in the England job. Farrell, Youngs etc.
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Yep same with a couple of my Aussie mates, they’re blaming the Aussie RFU and Jones for leaving out some great players from his RWC squad. Like I said, he picks his favourites, his safe hands players like he did in the England job. Farrell, Youngs etc.
I think the squad selection issues are being overplayed by a lot of aussies to avoid the uncomfortable truth that they don't have the quality to compete with the best sides. The truth is that Skelton is the only front 5 player they have who'd get into the teams of anyone else in the top 7-8 in the world. They're ok in the backrow and have some quality in the backs (which is where the Jones issues come into play) but it's still a basic truth of the sport that you don't win much if you can't compete up front.
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Absolute car crash from the Aussies. It's a bit of a travesty the way the draw halves have worked out that we will lose two of France/SA/Ireland/NZ in the quarters (I know Scotland could still do it, but they won't IMO). Wales should have a relatively easy qtr final now. England might struggle against Fiji again, but I think will manage to bore their way past them.
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Jones, if nothing else, is still excellent at taking the attention away from the players and keeping it on himself.
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Italy are getting absolutely obliterated.
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I thought Italy might give New Zealand a game...
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Tuilagi’s defending there was embarrassing.
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England have fallen apart at the moment. Discipline has gone.
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Shambolic last 15 there - no leadership on the field either.
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Surely the first half decent side they meet in the knock out round will put them out of their misery
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60% of this team need to retire and the whole coaching team need replacing. It’s shambolic
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Amateur hour….Farrell not kicking the pen before the shot clock run out is brain dead
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Worst England team since the late 1980’s. Embarrassingly bad.
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Such a poor performance. So many errors.
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I flicked over when it was 17-11 to Samoa. You can thank me later.
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Got away with it. Smith made a difference when he came on. But it just looked so disorganised.
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I'm English but I was cheering on for Samoa to score with that breakaway in the 78th or 79th minute. They deserved the win.
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The inability to make a call between Ford and Farrell knackers the midfield balance. Manu can defend at 12, but not 13.
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The inability to make a call between Ford and Farrell knackers the midfield balance. Manu can defend at 12, but not 13.
This all day. May be time to drop Itoje as well.
Absolutely zero creativity or leadership out there today.
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That Irish try when compared to what I saw from England looks like a different sport.
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I have strong ties to Scotland and I think it's shit how the pool draw did them dirty, but I have absolutely no interest in this being a contest. Easy win with no injuries would be ideal, please and thanks.
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It seems to be all green in the crowd.
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It seems to be all green in the crowd.
Supposedly there's 60,000 Irish in France for it.
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That was a lovely try! Needed it to add a bit of breathing space.
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That'll do pig, that'll do.
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Scottish guy just shoved Sheehan over the hording and it's apparently not a problem?
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That was a lovely try! Needed it to add a bit of breathing space.
Not getting a nervous sense of complacency?
Maybe it's too many years supporting Villa, and I am fully #COYBIG, but I always think that if you don't drop a bollock early, the longer it goes on, the more costly that dropped bollock will be.
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Blitz the group - only to get New Zealand in the QF. Doesn't seem much of a reward.
NZ might not be the force they once were. But it's still New Zealand.
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Blitz the group - only to get New Zealand in the QF. Doesn't seem much of a reward.
NZ might not be the force they once were. But it's still New Zealand.
Yeah I hope Ireland do it but any match against NZ in a world cup is a huge ask. Wouldn't be surprised if SA turn over France too.
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Just seen the Farrell time limit cock up. That is so inexcusable for an experienced international to do.
The bigger general issue I have with it, is why is so much time allowed to come off the clock for players lining up kicks? Just stop the clock until they have kicked it. By all means still put a shot clock on it, but there is zero need to take a minute out of the game
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Blitz the group - only to get New Zealand in the QF. Doesn't seem much of a reward.
NZ might not be the force they once were. But it's still New Zealand.
Yeah I hope Ireland do it but any match against NZ in a world cup is a huge ask. Wouldn't be surprised if SA turn over France too.
I feel like Ireland are the team New Zealand used to be, as in they play at 100% for the full 80 minutes. Whereas the current New Zealand team haven't put in an 80 minute performance for a while now. However, as I heard someone on the TV say, a not great New Zealand side is still a New Zealand side, and they're still one of the best teams in the world.
It's just hugely annoying that the 4 best teams in the world have to play each other in the QF. These should be the semi finals.
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In a pub having a few beers before the Villa game, and the Japan Argentina game is on.
It's all gone very quiet.
Boffelli is some player, bloody hell. Come on the Argies!
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That's a good try by the Japanese.
I'd imagine the BBC/Guardian commentary will be wanking themselves silly over that 😂
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Decent game this.
Nobody seems interested, however. Not until Japan score anyway.
Need Daniel Gallan from the Guardian here to rouse everyone with his hyperbolic nonsense. I'm not familiar with the chap, but is this his usual way of speaking?
(https://i.ibb.co/98w8J88/Screenshot-20231008-205330-2.png) (https://ibb.co/98w8J88)
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Really back and forth this one.
Am sitting with my mate from California, who's more interested in the ladies around us than the game, to be fair.
Argentina 27-20 ahead now, just over 20 minutes to go.
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I'm hoping Japan win, good contest though.
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I'm not, obviously haha.
No vuvuzelas, though. Which is always a relief, so I won't be too angry if they win 😂
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Argentina make far too many mistakes. Ill disciplined
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I'm not, obviously haha.
No vuvuzelas, though. Which is always a relief, so I won't be too angry if they win 😂
Has the feel of a game where Argentina will just manage to hold them at bay, so you should be fine.
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To be fair , I work at a university here that has produced some of Japan's rugby players. They seem a decent sort, so I wouldn't begrudge them the win.
As for the national football team. No 😂
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27-36 now. Thoroughly enjoyable rugby. Mistake ridden flamboyance best sums it up, brilliant.
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Definitely far more interesting than watching England.
I'm supporting Wales for my mum. She's half Irish, so if Ireland win, it's also ok by me.
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27-36 now. Thoroughly enjoyable rugby. Mistake ridden flamboyance best sums it up, brilliant.
A perfect summary of the game.
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Interesting what pressure does. Fiji have a big half now.
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They’re in trouble here.
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Look safe now.
But if I’m England I’m targeting the high ball against them as they have not been great under it.
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Portugal win. Blimey, Fiji through but only just.
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Yeah, amazing stuff at the end and you could see how much it meant to them. Shame about the female commentator who was really getting on my nerves, so switched over to RTE.
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I know England only squeaked by Samoa but Fiji have had two really shoddy performances since beating Aus. England have got to be favourites.
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Well done, Portugal. What a great tournament they've had. The campaign to replace Italy with them in the 6 Nations starts now!
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Portuguese scrum half was brilliant.
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Yeah, amazing stuff at the end and you could see how much it meant to them. Shame about the female commentator who was really getting on my nerves, so switched over to RTE.
We listened to the game on the drive back from the NFL with Aussie commentators who were making it sound like 80 minutes of the start of Barbarians v New Zealand 1973
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Barnes to ref the NZ v Ire QF
Sets him up for the final if England don't make it
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IF...?
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Sounds like it’s going to be Farrell at 10 - he better perform, because Ford absolutely has.
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Sounds like it’s going to be Farrell at 10 - he better perform, because Ford absolutely has.
Of course it will be, Farrell at 10 every game he was available for was inevitable and how anyone else played was never going to matter.
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It’s very curious that they’ve dropped Stewart from the squad entirely.
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It’s very curious that they’ve dropped Stewart from the squad entirely.
Not really, he's a decent all-round player but no more than that. Where he excels is under the high ball and on the kick return, neither of which are likely to be big factors against Fiji. That leaves you with a direct choice on the bench of him or Lawrence and the latter has far more to his game to suggest he can come on and make a difference. I'm more bothered by them picking Daly on the wing ahead of Arundell.
Up front I think things a bit muddled. Cole and George in there suggests we want to dominate the scrum early on and then open up with more progressive carriers later but Genge/Marler are the wrong way round if that's the plan and similarly you'd probably start Billy and swap him out if that's the focus. Quite how Martin has leapfrogged into first cover at Lock I don't know, the guy is nowhere near the level of someone like Ribbans and with Lawes at 6 if you want a more progressive option then you'd look at Ludlam taking that spot with Lawes easily able to step over if needed. Alternatively Underhill there instead gives you the option to tighten things up and have a game breaker to bring in.
The selection sums up Borthwick for me, it's like he's not sure what he wants to achieve so he's mushed a few different styles together and will see what works on the day, which is a really shitty way to set up a team at this level.
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Might have a cheeky bet on all 4 Northern Hemisphere teams going through.
Quite confident of England and Wales going through
Ireland seem to have New Zealand’s number
France, with home advantage, hopefully dump the Boks
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I think it’s quite odd to drop Steward from the 23 either. I’m not that fussed about it, he’s decent, but he’s been an ever present for a while. Regardless of the opposition’s particular style it’s quite a bold/atypical call for Borthwick.
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Anybody going for an All Blacks win tonight?
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Anybody going for an All Blacks win tonight?
I'm leaning that way but I wouldn't bet on it.
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These Welsh shirts are fucking awful.
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These Welsh shirts are fucking awful.
Looks like they got them from the local Marseille flea market
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Josh Adams, you lucky man.
Thought that may have been a yellow
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Josh Adams, you lucky man.
Thought that may have been a yellow
Agreed, very lucky, was fucking stupid as well.
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Would be amusing if Argentina end up the last Southern Hemisphere team in the competition.
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Would be amusing if Argentina end up the last Southern Hemisphere team in the competition.
Doing predictions with my club I had 2SH wins today and 2NH wins tomorrow but Argentina were the only SH side I was confident about.
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Anybody going for an All Blacks win tonight?
I'm leaning that way but I wouldn't bet on it.
That's what your head says Paul, but I know your heart says 'Do it for Sexton!' :)
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Anybody going for an All Blacks win tonight?
I'm leaning that way but I wouldn't bet on it.
That's what your head says Paul, but I know your heart says 'Do it for Sexton!' :)
If anything the sham of a ban for him to make sure he got to go pushes me the other way!
Honestly though I think it's the tightest game of the round, I just think the mental side favours NZ. If it's in the balance getting deep into the 2nd half the pressure will be on you lot to break the jinx.
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That's what your head says Paul, but I know your heart says 'Do it for Sexton!' :)
If anything the sham of a ban for him to make sure he got to go pushes me the other way!
I know, you made your thoughts known at the time. :)
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Wales were great for 20 minutes and fucked it up.
Dan Biggar has been a brilliant player but bloody hell what a gobshite, can’t see any referees missing him.
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Honestly though I think it's the tightest game of the round, I just think the mental side favours NZ. If it's in the balance getting deep into the 2nd half the pressure will be on you lot to break the jinx.
Massive, massive game and if we lose, the World Cup will feel like a disappointment despite the performances to date. Win and we're in bonus territory with Argentina up next. Think Ireland can win fairly comfortably if the pressure doesn't get to them, otherwise it will be a tight win for NZ. Hope it's the former but if I were betting, I'd put money on the latter.
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They've just shown a good luck message from U2 so...
Come on you all blacks!
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I think the fact it's a QF, which we've never got past, is the bigger mental hurdle than who we're playing. Most, if not all, of the players have a winning record against New Zealand, but none of them have ever won a QF at the World Cup. We've had a great couple of years, but none of it will mean anything if we lose tonight. I think that's the thing that's more likely to derail us tonight, and it would be the same if we were playing England, Argentina, New Zealand or anyone else.
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They've just shown a good luck message from U2 so...
Come on you all blacks!
Was just about to type the same.
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They've just shown a good luck message from U2 so...
Come on you all blacks!
Was just about to type the same.
Think it was only shown on ITV, so hopefully people from outside the UK and NZ will still cheer us on.
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haha
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Some shitty people during the minute silence.
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They've just shown a good luck message from U2 so...
Come on you all blacks!
Was just about to type the same.
Think it was only shown on ITV, so hopefully people from outside the UK and NZ will still cheer us on.
If the bullshit on commentary when they start the haka is as bad as normal is will almost certainly tip me back behind your lot.
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Some pretty dumb penalties by Porter early on but did well to limit it to 3. Now to see what Ireland can do in the 22.
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And the answer is that they were impatient and tried to force a bit of a wonder try.
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We're going to regret not taking 3 points on that penalty a while ago.
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Yeah, should've got points on the board early I think.
Decent set from Ireland there though but still nothing to show for it.
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And the answer is that they were impatient and tried to force a bit of a wonder try.
It felt like that all right.
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That last pass looks forward to me.
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That last pass looks forward to me.
Said that to my wife.
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That last pass looks forward to me.
Same. Surprised they didn't look at it a bit more.
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That's a massive penalty for Ireland. They needed points.
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Ireland unusually sloppy..
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Very very sloppy from Ireland so far, in every aspect .
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They are back in the game..good.
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We should be 3 ahead now if we'd kicked our points, but at least we're back in it
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Game on, terrible defence from NZ, Ireland created that overlap far too easily.
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Great players on both sides but I think the battle at 8 is massive here, Savea slightly on top so far.
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I've aged 10 years in those first 40 minutes
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And breathe. Not sure I can take another 40 mins of this.
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2 really poor bits of defending from NZ have made this closer than it probably should be. Glad it's so close though, it's made for a great first half.
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This match is absolutely ace.
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I don't know what's more entertaining, the Rugby or my missus's reactions to it. Either way it's great fun.
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All Blacks should be out of sight but for some poor defending, Ireland on the up, second half should be epic.
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Looking forward to it..Great game.
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Why is that Irish fan wearing a cooking apron and waving a pineapple over his head? ;D
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And Sexton misses a sitter. Think this is done now.
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This has been a superb watch but I am afraid chasing the game and missing that last pen is too much for the Irish to recover from.
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This has been a superb watch but I am afraid chasing the game and missing that last pen is too much for the Irish to recover from.
Not looking good, we've been strangely impatient in our passing so far.
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Not yet over...
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COYBIG.
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Aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!
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That try and yellow means Ireland have to be favourites.
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New Zealand doing a great job of running down their yellow card
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That was really poor from Beauden Barrett, no way he should be trying to keep it alive.
Saved by some exceptional defending from his brother.
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Porter is lucky he's not seen Yellow, he's been terrible in the scrum, you can see his arse coming out sideways every time.
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Gutted for Ireland but what a game! Fantastic.
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Fk off Sexton, you go by twat
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Porter is lucky he's not seen Yellow, he's been terrible in the scrum, you can see his arse coming out sideways every time.
Definitely, 3 or 4 times for exactly the same thing
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That knock on cost Ireland the game.
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Superb game, I think the tournament might have peaked with that.
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That knock on cost Ireland the game.
Agreed, especially after that superb bit of defence by New Zealand.
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Superb game, I think the tournament might have peaked with that.
It will peak when England win it 😉
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All Blacks just managed the game a bit better, the margins were so fine.
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Fair play to New Zealand, they were all over us from the start. But we should have kicked those penalties in the first half. Very questionable decision making from Sexton on those. We just didn't show up, and having an extra man for 20 minutes we really should have scored more.
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That knock on cost Ireland the game.
3-4 things cost them and it was all underpinned by Ireland trying to force things. If they'd played like they did in the last 10 all game they'd have won.
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That knock on cost Ireland the game.
3-4 things cost them and it was all underpinned by Ireland trying to force things. If they'd played like they did in the last 10 all game they'd have won.
The kick to O'Mahony in the corner at the start of the second half when they were down to 14 was symptomatic of that.
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Savea got motm which is fair, he made the genuinely exceptional Doris look very average.
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Who and why was Sexton so pissed at the end with? Someone must have said something to him.
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This has been a superb watch but I am afraid chasing the game and missing that last pen is too much for the Irish to recover from.
Not looking good, we've been strangely impatient in our passing so far.
Bad luck and it’s really unfair that the Irish only had two Kiwis in the team where as the other side had 15😀
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Giving away the penalty from a much better position just after Barrett missed one was the last straw. Just made things so much harder for ourselves all night.
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This has been a superb watch but I am afraid chasing the game and missing that last pen is too much for the Irish to recover from.
Not looking good, we've been strangely impatient in our passing so far.
Bad luck and it’s really unfair that the Irish only had two Kiwis in the team where as the other side had 15😀
No they didn't there's about 6 Tongans in there team!
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This has been a superb watch but I am afraid chasing the game and missing that last pen is too much for the Irish to recover from.
Not looking good, we've been strangely impatient in our passing so far.
Bad luck and it’s really unfair that the Irish only had two Kiwis in the team where as the other side had 15😀
Except they didn't, did they.
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Bet the Ryan Air website has crashed.
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As so often with Rugby, the team that made the least mistakes win.
Ireland made poor decisions at crucial times. So disappointed.
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Great match, brilliant defending from the All Blacks, thought Sam Cane was superb.
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Bet the Ryan Air website has crashed.
Better it's their website rather than one of their planes.
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New Zealand also played for 20 minutes with 14 men, Ireland failed to take advantage of that. I really thought they’d have dominated those periods.
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As so often with Rugby, the team that made the least mistakes win.
Ireland made poor decisions at crucial times. So disappointed.
Pretty much, more decisions than mistakes though.
To clarify, at this level most mistakes are a result of poor decisions and Ireland tonight got most of the big decisions wrong, particularly in the first half.
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Great game, it was Ireland’s decision making that did for them which is uncharacteristic.
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Not the set of results I was hoping to wake up to. Rubbish.
Though I don't mind Argentina, to be fair.
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Superb game, I think the tournament might have peaked with that.
It will peak when England win it 😉
Aubergine
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Gutted that Ireland lost but it was small margins. Conceding 2 tries from lineouts in the NZ half, penalties at the scrum & ultimately being held up on the line with 5 mins to go. If that goes over Ireland win.
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Onto today.
I hope/expect a reasonably comfortable win for England today but only if we control the lineout, if not it might get rather uncomfortable.
This evening is too close to call, South Africa’s power won’t be enough, DuPont will be targeted from the start, France should have enough. Just.
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England will have a very uncomfortable afternoon. Might sneak it, but only to set up a humbling next Saturday.
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England will have a very uncomfortable afternoon. Might sneak it, but only to set up a humbling next Saturday.
Maybe depends if England play a smart game.
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Expecting England +15 points. Purely on the balance of support. Need to play smart.
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This referee likes his whistle
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If there is any consistency in refereeing that Fijian yellow will be upgraded to a red.
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Curry needs to go to tackle school.
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If there is any consistency in refereeing that Fijian yellow will be upgraded to a red.
Nah. A perfect example of a yellow being upheld.
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Pretty good first of half of rugby all round. England for the 1st time in ages aren't just running the ball straight into the defender with no outside or inside support. Its a small thing but with how exceptionally poor the last couple of years have been its great to see
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If there is any consistency in refereeing that Fijian yellow will be upgraded to a red.
Nah. A perfect example of a yellow being upheld.
Yep agreed, looked correct to me. In fact I think they've been good and consistent around head collisions in every game since the ridiculous decision on Curry. Take that 1 decision away and I'm happy with the officials so far, it's just frustrating that the 1 huge error cost us a key player for pretty much the entire group stage.
On the game I think the decision to start with Smith at 15 looked a good one, he was excellent when he was first on and it put us into the right mindset.
Mitchell has been excellent, Lawes has been world class (again), Itoje is putting in his best performance for England for about 2 years and Farrell has been much better in not just kicking possession away in 2nd or 3rd phase. If we'd played like this for the last year we'd have gone inot the world cup thinking we had a real chance of making the final again.
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The Farrells used to live just up the road from us in Wigan, and Owen used to knock around with my nephew as a kid.
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Ref has been generous there to not reverse that one, dragging someone out of the ruck by their feet is shitty behaviour.
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Their number 7 giving somebody a whack in the face was a bit lucky too?
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Hmm, I'm becoming a bit fearful.
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FFS!
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Just flicked over....
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England are going to pieces
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Throwing this away now.
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Only one winner now. England players look dead on their feet.
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Fuck me this is chronic, awful defending in the last 10 minutes.
Aty least we've got George fucking Martin on to save the day.
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No idea how there wasn't a yellow card at the end of that break from Earl, that was the clearest 'professional foul' you get in rugby,m Fiji were fucked and they knew it so they were desperate to give away the penalty to stay within 7.
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Never in doubt.
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What's not in doubt, is that we've had 3 cracking quarters and I cannot wait for the last one later.
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Well, I suppose you have to give England credit for not falling apart after Fiji drew level. A wonderfully enjoyable game of rugby. Ben Earl man of the match by a country mile.
Bring on the semi final battering from South Africa or France
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fantastic result, given lots of people were worried about us getting out of the group we've done superbly to make the semi-final.
Lawes was exceptional, it's not flashy but the guy is a fucking machine, I honestly think he's the best 5/6 in the world now and has been for a while.
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Rugby good, Cricket not so good!
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Fair play England when Fiji came back we could have wilted but didn’t and won it. Top work.
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Fair play England when Fiji came back we could have wilted but didn’t and won it. Top work.
I reckon what happened is England made a few changes and it caused our intensity at the breakdown to drop slightly. Once everyone was back up to speed we didn't look like we were going to let them through again.
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No it was really pleasing the discipline in that phase was excellent.
Farrell did well tonight.
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Could yet be proved wrong, but the fact that both England and Argentina have made the semi finals highlights the ridiculous drawing of groups years before the tournament.
There is no logic to it, and given that there are always so many 'also rans' competing at every World Cup leaving very few realistic winners, there seems little excuse getting the draw so badly stilted.
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Long term it may actually have been a blessing to go out tonight. I just hope that the RFU don't see a semi final being reached as a reason to not start to fix everything that is wrong with ths current state of English rugby.
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Could yet be proved wrong, but the fact that both England and Argentina have made the semi finals highlights the ridiculous drawing of groups years before the tournament.
There is no logic to it, and given that there are always so many 'also rans' competing at every World Cup leaving very few realistic winners, there seems little excuse getting the draw so badly stilted.
I totally agree that it needs to change, but as Warren Gatland said the other day, teams should have played better at the last world cup and they wouldn't have been in this situation.
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Long term it may actually have been a blessing to go out tonight. I just hope that the RFU don't see a semi final being reached as a reason to not start to fix everything that is wrong with ths current state of English rugby.
Nah whether they get it right or not is very much to be seen, but I think they’re acutely aware of the problems.
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Could yet be proved wrong, but the fact that both England and Argentina have made the semi finals highlights the ridiculous drawing of groups years before the tournament.
There is no logic to it, and given that there are always so many 'also rans' competing at every World Cup leaving very few realistic winners, there seems little excuse getting the draw so badly stilted.
It's worked well in that Tier 1 teams of the same level have been playing each other so far, and it's resulted in 4 evenly matched QFs. But the SFs will most likely be an absolute blow out, before a final that's quite possibly between 2 teams that have already played each other a few weeks ago.
If you end up with the 2 best teams in the final then I guess that's all that matters, but last night's game and tonight's game should really have been the SFs this year.
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We’ll see about the blow outs.
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We’ll see about the blow outs.
I think England could do ok against the French (who may feel the pressure a bit) and not lose by too many, but I think the Boks could be a bit of a bloodbath
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What a start for France
-
Decent start to the game.
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Amazing how quiet it’s gone.
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Even quieter now.
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Whichever team wins this puts 40 points + on England next week
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I'd missed it before but I think it's interesting that SA have started Reinach ahead of de Klerk. Extra pace to handle Dupont, experience playing in France or just because he's a better player? Not sure.
SA look worryingly strong so far though, France need to get a grip in the loose because SA are loving broken play right now.
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This is mental.
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Whichever team wins this puts 40 points + on England next week
Nah, France did that to us in the 6N but we've come a long way since that, they'd both be favourites but it won't be as ridiculously one-sided as it looked like it might be.
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This is mental.
It's scintillating stuff so far.
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Whichever team wins this puts 40 points + on England next week
Nah, France did that to us in the 6N but we've come a long way since that, they'd both be favourites but it won't be as ridiculously one-sided as it looked like it might be.
Night and day in terms of ability, coaching or intent to play.
Their complacency is our only weapon
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Mad game - from an English perspective our hope is this is the emotional peak for both because it’s exceptional.
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Whichever team wins this puts 40 points + on England next week
Nah, France did that to us in the 6N but we've come a long way since that, they'd both be favourites but it won't be as ridiculously one-sided as it looked like it might be.
Night and day in terms of ability, coaching or intent to play.
Their complacency is our only weapon
I don't disagree with any of that, I just don't think we're going to take an absolute thumping by 40+.
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That half was next level, even compared with Ireland vs the ABs yesterday. I don't even want to think what either team will do to England next week. To that end, I'd rather lose to the Bokke, and hope they shut that crowd up.
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Be interesting to see what TMO does with that Etzbeth card.
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Be interesting to see what TMO does with that Etzbeth card.
It's right on the edge for me, the guy was quite low but there was plenty of time for Etzebeth to see and adjust. I think Yellow just...
and as I was typing it's confirmed a yellow.
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Whichever team wins this puts 40 points + on England next week
Nah, France did that to us in the 6N but we've come a long way since that, they'd both be favourites but it won't be as ridiculously one-sided as it looked like it might be.
Night and day in terms of ability, coaching or intent to play.
Their complacency is our only weapon
I don't disagree with any of that, I just don't think we're going to take an absolute thumping by 40+.
That one is for next week Paul I guess….hope we get another 40 mins and maybe extra like the first 40
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Most punchable face in rugby is on.
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That half was next level, even compared with Ireland vs the ABs yesterday. I don't even want to think what either team will do to England next week. To that end, I'd rather lose to the Bokke, and hope they shut that crowd up.
We’re massive underdogs without a doubt, but this level isn’t sustainable. This’ll take a hell of a lot out of whoever wins - it’s a bit like England’s win over NZ in 2019. Doesn’t mean they won’t win, but sustaining this level is incredibly difficult.
As an aside on England, they’ve done well. They’ve had a favourable draw, but they’ve won every game. We’ll see how it goes next week, but they’ve definitely improved and done alright.
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Whichever team wins this puts 40 points + on England next week
Nah, France did that to us in the 6N but we've come a long way since that, they'd both be favourites but it won't be as ridiculously one-sided as it looked like it might be.
Night and day in terms of ability, coaching or intent to play.
Their complacency is our only weapon
I don't disagree with any of that, I just don't think we're going to take an absolute thumping by 40+.
That one is for next week Paul I guess….hope we get another 40 mins and maybe extra like the first 40
Same, I think this will go down as one of the all-time classics if it carries on as it has, it's been incredible so far.
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Most punchable face in rugby is on.
;D Was thinking the same, probably because he reminds of an annoying twerp I used to work with.
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To add a bit of rugby geekery watch Ollivon (french 7) in open play, he's the best support runner in the world (and possibly the best ever) and just seems to be in the right place for almost every play.
The ginger prop for SA is very lucky he didn't get a yellow there.
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France learning from Sexton's stupidity yesterday and taking their points from penalties.
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The little dummied chip from Jalibert then was just beautiful.
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The little dummied chip from Jalibert then was just beautiful.
and then he shanks about the worst kick for touch I've ever seen in a world cup.
-
France riding their luck here.
-
France riding their luck here.
yes but SA are making too many silly errors to make anything of it.
Both teams are looking tired though, which is where the mistakes are creeping in and it's fair after the best of an hour smashing the fuck out of each other.
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Not always working for them but France are so quick with everything. Again a stark contrast to how slow Ireland were last night.
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France riding their luck here.
yes but SA are making too many silly errors to make anything of it.
Both teams are looking tired though, which is where the mistakes are creeping in and it's fair after the best of an hour smashing the fuck out of each other.
Yeah which is why I think whoever wins will find next week hard.
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Not always working for them but France are so quick with everything. Again a stark contrast to how slow Ireland were last night.
That's what a genuinely world class 9 gives you. Gibson-Park is ok of the QF teams I'd rank him as 6th (at best) and it makes a difference.
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Bollocks!
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Poweeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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We'll see what France are made of now.
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I really dislike Etzebeth.
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That was ballsy turning down a guaranteed 3 points and delivering….he is a beast to stop, the 10 mins rest earlier obv did him good
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France have lost their heads a bit here. Still plenty of time.
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3 points coming up.
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Allez les bleus !
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WTF was that.
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WTF was that.
The Irish commentators were stunned by that. Shocker!
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Ref not buying Faff's nonsense
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The problem for France now is that Atonio was a monster in the scrum and without him they've lost any control they had. That makes it hard for them to go the length and get the score they need.
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South Africa are experts at eating up the time at the scrums.
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France threw that away with that stupid restart fuck up.
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France now have that Irish feeling. :( Great game though!
3 SH teams, and England to fly the flag for the NH.
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Ah well. Scotland on Tuesday in the proper game.
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Unbelievable weekend. 4 straight classics.
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SA played on the edge for the last 10, in the last spell they could easily have conceded a pen 2-3 times for coming round the side or handling the ball in the ruck.
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Can't believe no Northern hemisphere teams made the SF. All Southern hemisphere, not a single Northern one, nobody to root for at all.
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Can't believe no Northern hemisphere teams made the SF. All Southern hemisphere, not a single Northern one, nobody to root for at all.
Really.
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Couldn’t believe de Klerk kicked that ball away with a minute to go…what ever happened to stick the ball up the jersey and killing the clock. They were a better side before he came on the pitch.
Brilliant, brilliant game though
France were valiant & excellent losers rather than bottling it which was good to see
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Couldn’t believe de Klerk kicked that ball away with a minute to go…what ever happened to stick the ball up the jersey and killing the clock. They were a better side before he came on the pitch.
Brilliant, brilliant game though
France were valiant & excellent losers rather than bottling it which was good to see
Reinach has been a better 9 than de Klerk for ages but missed out because of experience.
Atonio was key, the French scrum collapsed without him and once you're losing that it's so hard to control field position.
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SA were braver in their play than France that’s why they won.
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Well we’ve had many grim nights against the Boks, time we owed them one.
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I hope DeKlerk starts next week, he was shit.
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The ref gave SA some crucial decisions or failed to see SA infringement.
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Can't believe no Northern hemisphere teams made the SF. All Southern hemisphere, not a single Northern one, nobody to root for at all.
Really.
There is obviously a joke here but I can’t figure it out.
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The ref gave SA some crucial decisions or failed to see SA infringement.
The big one was not giving the ginger prop a yellow just before he got subbed.
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The ref gave SA some crucial decisions or failed to see SA infringement.
Was it the last penalty they scored from that should have gone the other way, or certainly been looked at a bit closer. South Africa are annoyingly good at working the ref and playing very close to the edge. Faff firing the ball at the French players bum instead of to LeRoux for the drop goal seemed stupid at the time, but they ate up about 6 minutes after it with scrums.
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Can't believe no Northern hemisphere teams made the SF. All Southern hemisphere, not a single Northern one, nobody to root for at all.
Really.
There is obviously a joke here but I can’t figure it out.
Indeed.
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Oh dear what a shame.
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The ref gave SA some crucial decisions or failed to see SA infringement.
Was it the last penalty they scored from that should have gone the other way, or certainly been looked at a bit closer. South Africa are annoyingly good at working the ref and playing very close to the edge. Faff firing the ball at the French players bum instead of to LeRoux for the drop goal seemed stupid at the time, but they ate up about 6 minutes after it with scrums.
Yep, the guy clearly put his hand on the floor which means he shouldn't have been allowed to handle the ball. There were a few similar things that the ref missed.
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You’re allowed to briefly touch the floor, but the decision could have gone against him
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Let’s not get all Warren Gatland over it eh?
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England the only unbeaten team left in the tournament, got to be favourites to win it now.
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Yep very clearly the case…..Although for all the grumbling about the draw, which is a bit daft but has been understood for a long time, it shows winning the World Cup as favourites is hard. Lots of teams find it incredibly difficult to get over that hurdle.
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6 points away from being an unforgettable World Cup, but two alltimers end with the old order scraping through. It's a shame.
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Might have a cheeky bet on all 4 Northern Hemisphere teams going through.
Quite confident of England and Wales going through
Ireland seem to have New Zealand’s number
France, with home advantage, hopefully dump the Boks
Good job I’m not a betting man 😂
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The ref gave SA some crucial decisions or failed to see SA infringement.
Agree, thought he was very lenient
I was surprised Ezibeth yellow wasn’t upgraded, but since Curry’s red they seemed to have looked at that kind of thing differently
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The ref gave SA some crucial decisions or failed to see SA infringement.
Was it the last penalty they scored from that should have gone the other way, or certainly been looked at a bit closer. South Africa are annoyingly good at working the ref and playing very close to the edge. Faff firing the ball at the French players bum instead of to LeRoux for the drop goal seemed stupid at the time, but they ate up about 6 minutes after it with scrums.
Its infuriating as a neutral seeing how much time comes off the clock at scrums. Setting them up and them collapsing takes time out the game. I still don't understand in a sport where the clock can stop why this is just simply allowed to happen. It's the same with penalty kicks and conversions. Why are players given an absolute age to kick them with the clock still running?
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You’re allowed to briefly touch the floor, but the decision could have gone against him
The law on this one is open to interpretation because it simply says that to be able to compete for the ball with their hands the first player arriving at the ruck must 'stay on their feet'. For me the 'spirit' of the law is that your hands touching the floor as you play the ball is fine but balancing yourself or supporting your weight shouldn't be. More specifically, and to give a clear dividing line, I was told when the law changed a few years back that refs in Greater Bham would be officiating as "palm or knuckles on the floor or prolonged fingertips on the floor" would be considered as off feet and revert you back to normal ruck laws.
On that basis I think he's very lucky not to have been called up on it.
I still think the lack of a yellow for Kitshoff was the bigger call, just like Porter the day before he could've gone for repeated offences in the scrum but even without that the penalty at the ruck just before he was subbed was a definite yellow for me and I can't work out how the officials saw it any differently.
The ref was also very lenient in letting SA come round the side 3-4 times in the final passage of play. The ref called them out and they did back off but it was a clear tactic to slow down the French play and the ref was a little naive in letting it happen so many times without calling the penalty. There were a few other niggly ones as well where the ref seemed be willing to give SA the benefit of the doubt in terms of where they entered the ruck or how fast they were in rolling away/releasing the player. It's not that the individual actions are necessarily penalties but so many of them back-to-back is a clear tactic to disrupt play and time waste and I think, looked at more broadly, there was enough there that the ref should've bene giving warnings and then given the penalty when it carried on.
He let them waste a lot of time at the scrums in the last 5minutes or so as well, with one being a pretty clear case of SA backing off the hitto bring France slightly further forward so the whole thing was out of balance and got reset, taking a minute off the clock.
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Oooh, controversial…
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/cheslin-kolbe-charge-down-block-south-africa-rugby-b2431542.html
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I guess we're all Pumas tonight?
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This is over.
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I get the sense we’ll be in for a similar battering tomorrow evening.
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I think Ireland might have beaten Argentina, but such is sport.
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That Kiwi winger would give some top class sprinters a bit of a fright.
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I get the sense we’ll be in for a similar battering tomorrow evening.
Nah, I think the ‘Boks will put up a bit of a fight 😉
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The commentator said one of the most one sided semi finals, I'd be surprised, if it wasn't THE most one sided.
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The commentator said one of the most one sided semi finals, I'd be surprised, if it wasn't THE most one sided.
Till tomorrow. ;)
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The commentator said one of the most one sided semi finals, I'd be surprised, if it wasn't THE most one sided.
I saw on the BBC live text that they were just a few points short of beating the biggest ever SF win which was 49-6, I think, by New Zealand over Wales many moons ago.
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The commentator said one of the most one sided semi finals, I'd be surprised, if it wasn't THE most one sided.
Till tomorrow. ;)
😂
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Right C’mon England just pin up what Joel Stransky said on the dressing room wall.
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The commentator said one of the most one sided semi finals, I'd be surprised, if it wasn't THE most one sided.
I saw on the BBC live text that they were just a few points short of beating the biggest ever SF win which was 49-6, I think, by New Zealand over Wales many moons ago.
And they would have beaten it had that chap passed to Will Jordan instead of going for glory, and a successful conversion.
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England have no chance. Zero.
Came through the easiest group and an uncomfortable quarter final but the luck runs out tonight. It will be brutal and painful.
I'd love to be wrong.
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England have no chance. Zero.
Came through the easiest group and an uncomfortable quarter final but the luck runs out tonight. It will be brutal and painful.
I'd love to be wrong.
I thought it was funny last night people were saying oh, Argentina haven't shown up in the SF, they'll be very disappointed etc. etc. and then someone finally pointed out that they played the same way they've played all tournament, they just didn't have to play a decent side until the SF.
I feel like it's the same for England. The draw, as annoying as it was, was split quite well in terms of having teams of a similar level playing against one another. So England have come through a pool and QF against teams playing at the same level as them. I'd expect them to put up a bit more of a challenge than Argentina did last night, but I'd be very surprised if the outcome isn't the same in the end.
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England have been written off numerous times in the World Cup over the last 20 years and seem to find a performance from somewhere to make it to a semi or a final, let’s not forget 4 years ago when they were given no chance against the All Blacks and put in an astonishing performance to win. However despite all that I can’t see it on this occasion and I think South Africa by a minimum of two tries difference. Fortunately I’m off out for a meal tonight so won’t have to sit and antagonise about it one way or the other.
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The team four years ago were favourites to win the whole thing weren't they? If this team get to the final it will be more akin to 2007 when we were pretty useless but did enough to get there. Can't see it sadly.
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Decent enough start though. Mitchell has done well.
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England are reaĺly up to the job so far..Good start.
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Farrell is letting us down so far, gifted them 3 points by being a twat.
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What a wanker.
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Oh my, that from Lawes to win in back in the build up for the 3rd penalty was special.
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great first half, Mitchell, Lawes and Earl have been exceptional. Farrell needs to learn when to shut the fuck up and Vunipola needs to be a lot more switched on if he comes on permanently later.
What's really impressive is that we're here on the strength of our kicking game, breakdown work and set piece, that's a kick in the balls for SA who build their game around those elements.
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It’s been a brilliant half - the question is can we sustain the physicality and limit the mistakes. They will come back at us.
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I'm still pissed at Farrell, a try+ lead would have been exactly what we deserved.
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We need to hit them hard after half time to really hit their morale.
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We need to hit them hard after half time to really hit their morale.
Bar a shit throw from George the first 5 have been spot on.
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We need to hit them hard after half time to really hit their morale.
Bar a shit throw from George the first 5 have been spot on.
...or 2
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We need to hit them hard after half time to really hit their morale.
Bar a shit throw from George the first 5 have been spot on.
Two shit throws
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The 2nd one was so poor I'd have sent Dan out to warm-up immediately after it.
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Started well but getting basics wrong is costing us
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The 2nd one was so poor I'd have sent Dan out to warm-up immediately after it.
I like how he kind of stood stunned at what he'd done until someone screamed at him to wake up
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Christ, foot like a traction engine
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Fair fucks, brilliant Farrell.
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What a fucking drop goal that was.
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Yep, that drop goal makes up for the silliness earlier. Brilliant chase as a team and carry from genge to create the chance as well.
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Did that hit the ground before it got kicked?
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Did that hit the ground before it got kicked?
yeah, I think so, it did look tight though.
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Sinckler needs to get his game together.
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Sinckler needs to get his game together.
I'm not sure he's entirely at fault here, there's a problem that SA seem to be instigating for me.
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Sinckler needs to get his game together.
I'm not sure he's entirely at fault here, there's a problem that SA seem to be instigating for me.
Doesn’t matter though - ref thinks it’s him and it’s resulted in a try.
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England are going to chuck this away.
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There you go.
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Considering the general opinion was it would be a heavy defeat, to go so close was pretty impressive.
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The winning penalty was incredibly soft, should been a reset for me.
Regardless England did much better than expected, I did tell people that it wasn't going to be a battering.
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Yep that penalty looked bollocks.
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At least we turned up. If anyone's to blame its my bleedin' missus. Had to open her mouth about no try being scored about ninety seconds before they got theirs.
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And so a tournament that promised so much ends up with the most boring possible final.
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Let's look on the bright side - one of NZ and SA will lose the final next week. I prefer not to think about the flipside of that.
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That shit kick by Steward on about 75 was a turning point.
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That's a good World Cup for England given how they've been playing recently. I genuinely thought they'd struggle to get out of their pool, and I thought they'd be well beaten tonight. South Africa just have a way of getting results though. It's rarely pretty to watch, but here they are in a final again.
It's kind of depressing to see another all Southern hemisphere final, especially with how good France and Ireland have been over the last 2 years.
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Game turned once Sinckler came on, scrum became a total liability. Not to mention George throwing away 2 lineouts in excellent attacking positions.
Impressive to make it a game as I was one who expected 40+ point defeat….felt SA played down to Englands level tho…
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Yeah it was Sinckler sadly who ultimately cost us. But a hell of a performance and they deserve immense credit.
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Vunipola also came on twice and was, well... a bit shit twice.
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The important thing is we’ve shown what we need to do now. Build from it - the last 4 years have been shit. We’ve fallen away behind the likes of Ireland, France, and to a lesser extent Scotland, who have been fantastic. We need to build now, this level of performance is there. We need to add some sparkle but it can be done.
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Gutted, hope we can build on this but yeah just gutted. Not sure about the pen at the scrum but there you go.
Hope NZ win next week.
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The important thing is we’ve shown what we need to do now. Build from it - the last 4 years have been shit. We’ve fallen away behind the likes of Ireland, France, and to a lesser extent Scotland, who have been fantastic. We need to build now, this level of performance is there. We need to add some sparkle but it can be done.
Where do you stand on the Farrell vs Ford vs SomeoneElseEntirely issue? They'll be 36 and 34 by the next World Cup, which isn't too old by any means, but maybe it's time to look beyond either of them?
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It’s a tricky one - Marcus Smith brings the spark to the back line - we need to find a way to integrate him. But England need to build properly over the next 4 years, discarding experience and quality along the way is just daft. Eddie Jones projected forward too much and lost his way, it’s about a gradual overhaul - at least for me.
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well played England you had a good game plan and it almost worked
Much better team for most of the game, it was only when our scrum was boosted that we got back into the game and scored the winning try and Penalty.
Lots of youngsters in the England team so something to work with
I think the Boks are out on their feet after France and England games where the all blacks have had a bit of a stroll to the final
Can not imagine why Monty thinks it will be the most boring Final ?
Do you think Argentina England would have been the go to game ?
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And so a tournament that promised so much ends up with the most boring possible final.
Yep. With the honourable exceptions of all you fine people, I've found the England rugby fans I've met to be some of life's biggest tossers, so I am glad that those people have been let down.
Boring final, and I won't be watching.
I'll be enjoying the mighty England cricket team instead, and our marvellous procession to a brilliant world cup defence... oh.
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well played England you had a good game plan and it almost worked
Much better team for most of the game, it was only when our scrum was boosted that we got back into the game and scored the winning try and Penalty.
Lots of youngsters in the England team so something to work with
I think the Boks are out on their feet after France and England games where the all blacks have had a bit of a stroll to the final
Can not imagine why Monty thinks it will be the most boring Final ?
Do you think Argentina England would have been the go to game ?
Boring as in it's the two best teams in the world, rather than boring rugby, I'm guessing. Boringly predictable like Man City getting to cup finals every year.
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A game of very fine margins.
Farrell mouthing off and costing valuable yards.
Sinckler and Vunipola coming on and being utterly shite.
That awful Steward kick.
Two pathetic line out throws from George in good positions.
All combined to cost England the game.
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A game of very fine margins.
Farrell mouthing off and costing valuable yards.
Sinckler and Vunipola coming on and being utterly shite.
That awful Steward kick.
Two pathetic line out throws from George in good positions.
All combined to cost England the game.
Sort of but it’s not as if South Africa didn’t make similar errors over the course of the game. In a game of fine margins South Africa just got the rub of the green at the end.
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England did well I suppose, but much like us and O’Neill playing in that reductive style is only going to get you so far.
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The same ref who made 3 big calls in favour of SA against France and did the same for them against England.
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Respectfully I don’t think that makes any sense. They outplayed and nearly beat the number one side in the world. It wasn’t free flowing, of course not but the conditions didn’t allow that. England need to build on it, but the fundamentals of that game could carry them to beat anyone. They were accurate, physically dominant and just really good.
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well played England you had a good game plan and it almost worked
Much better team for most of the game, it was only when our scrum was boosted that we got back into the game and scored the winning try and Penalty.
Lots of youngsters in the England team so something to work with
I think the Boks are out on their feet after France and England games where the all blacks have had a bit of a stroll to the final
Can not imagine why Monty thinks it will be the most boring Final ?
Do you think Argentina England would have been the go to game ?
Boring as in it's the two best teams in the world, rather than boring rugby, I'm guessing. Boringly predictable like Man City getting to cup finals every year.
Yeah, I'm sure the rugby quality will be very high but we don't follow sport just to regard technical excellence. For the last couple of years New Zealand had fallen behind, and while South Africa were always there the hopes for France and Ireland to finally make their breakthroughs were very high. Some questionable refereeing and 6 points later and the old order reaffirms itself. I'm not sure how fondly this tournament will be remembered by anyone other than the winners.
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New Zealand are currently like a very dangerous wounded animal, after having a bad couple of years. I think they are going to rip the Springboks to shreds in the final.
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The same ref who made 3 big calls in favour of SA against France and did the same for them against England.
I pointed this out, too.
He was guessing at the scrums, and came out in favour of SA.
There were so many, more knowledgeable than myself at front row dark arts, saying the SA props were guilty.
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England made it to the stage most people thought they would, given the relatively easy draw.
As much as I hate to credit Erasmus (given that he's an arrogant arse), I don't see any other coach having the chutzpah to make such early and numerous changes.
Probable that my fellow Whitecross Comprehensive School alumnus, Wayne Barnes, will now get the final.
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I didn't give England a chance in this game so kudos to them for taking such a great side to the wire. It's been a turbulent time for the team since Jones got fired and Borthwick deserves a chance to build on that performance starting with Argentina on Friday.
An end of an era for many of the squad, although I think most will be around for the six nations.
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A game of very fine margins.
Yup, as we found out last week. :(
On Irish TV they felt England should have had a penalty in the 79th minute for the Saffa not rolling away. They thought that the weather, England's game plan and intensity, plus South Africa's errors, made it a close game, before adding that if England stick with this style of rugby they should give Italy a good game in the Six Nations.
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Which is a bit of a daft conclusion given that the weather clearly influenced the plan. England clearly need to develop their game, it’s worth remembering what a shambles Borthwick walked into. It’s not been straightforward since then, but last night showed two characteristics that are absolutely crucial to any side that want to compete at the top level - sustained physical intensity and accuracy. England have shown they can do that now, in the highest pressure situation. They need to build other aspects, but demonstrating that was massive because it hasn’t been there since the last World Cup.
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Bongi Mbonambi might be in a spot of bother. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67185493
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Bongi Mbonambi might be in a spot of bother. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67185493
I was reading about that earlier and I can't think for the life of me what he could have said? Obviously there can be racism against white people, but there's no obvious word I can think of... honky? Cracker?
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Bongi Mbonambi might be in a spot of bother. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67185493
I was reading about that earlier and I can't think for the life of me what he could have said? Obviously there can be racism against white people, but there's no obvious word I can think of... honky? Cracker?
Apparently Curry was heard asking the ref, “Sir, Sir, if their hooker calls me a white c*nt what do I do?”
The ref replied: “Nothing please.”
It's a revelation to me that Curry would address the ref as "Sir, Sir", as if he's in a primary school class.
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I hear that loads. Players calling the ref sir, that is, not Curry being called a white c*nt.
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Bit of a stretch, I think, to call that a racial slur. Be interesting to see if they pursue it, not sure of the optics on it.
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It's not a stretch at all, it's a racial slur.
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Indeed, not sure what’s debatable about that.
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New Zealand are currently like a very dangerous wounded animal, after having a bad couple of years. I think they are going to rip the Springboks to shreds in the final.
I hope so, JD.
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The question probably should be why the referee didn’t feel that serious enough to address with the SA captain at least?
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The question probably should be why the referee didn’t feel that serious enough to address with the SA captain at least?
I imagine it’s more that isn’t something to be dealt with on the field. It needs a separate disciplinary process.
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I see Courtney Lawes has announced his retirement from international duty after the World Cup.
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You’d imagine Coles, Marler, Youngs & perhaps Care & Vunipola won’t be far behind Lawes?
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I watch quote a bit of rugby and feel that this World Cup has probably highlighted to a wider audience just how influential referees are in deciding games. It's not like football where a few free-kicks on half way don't have too much of an impact. As we saw last night, a few penalties around that area of the pitch can literally decide a game and are therefore crucial.
It's just the inconsistency, particularly around scrums and the breakdown that I find infuriating. They will literally let things go for periods of a game and then just randomly penalise a team. I accept it is a hard game to ref, so I would rather see many scrum and breakdown penalties be downgraded to free kicks rather than penalties. Might help the game flow a bit more as well.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
What I don't like about scrum penalties is that referees will generally call a penalty when a scrum is being dominated by one of the teams. Sometimes it just looks like dominance and the other team aren't actually infringing
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
What I don't like about scrum penalties is that referees will generally call a penalty when a scrum is being dominated by one of the teams. Sometimes it just looks like dominance and the other team aren't actually infringing
Yep, then you have scrums that are stable and the ball could come out easily but the team keeps it in to try force a penalty because they think the ref is favouring them.
And of course props boring in or binding short (watch how often a scrum collapses and the prop on one side is bound on the shoulder or armpit).
There's plenty more as well and all combined they give teams too many options to "earn" cheap shots for 3 points. Even worse is that so many refs compound the problem with yellow cards.
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Please humour me as I know little about rugby and enjoy watching international tests. I have always been led to believe that when the referee makes a decision it is accepted with respect and almost without question. What I'm seeing now is almost every decision is being debated and not just by Owen Farrell. Am I correct in my observations.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
I saw a clip at the weekend of Matt Williams, the Aussie ex-Scotland coach speaking about it after Saturdays game. He was saying that the scrum has now gone from being a way to re-start a game or set up an attacking position, to just a cynical way to win penalties. Yiu can see that from the NFL style celebrations the forwards do when they win a penalty from it.
The game on Saturday night was decided by penalties from scrums. The South Africans didn't look like they could get near England's 22 in open play, but the penalties they got from scrums got them the positions they needed.
I wouldn't want scrums to become like they are in rugby league, as they are a big part of the game. I just think maybe awarding a free kick for most scrum offences outside the 22 could be a way forward, with them being upgraded to penalties inside the 22 might help. Also, the free kicks have to be tapped and the scrum does not get reset might also help. The only penalty outside the 22 could be for deliberately collapsing a scrum that has got real momentum going forward.
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Please humour me as I know little about rugby and enjoy watching international tests. I have always been led to believe that when the referee makes a decision it is accepted with respect and almost without question. What I'm seeing now is almost every decision is being debated and not just by Owen Farrell. Am I correct in my observations.
Yeah, it has got worse in recent times, but there is still a line there really. Players will have a word, but refs will shut them down pretty quickly. The likes of Owen Farrell, Johnny Sexton and Dan Biggar push it a bit further than others, but that's tens for you!!
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These days the Ref will only award one ten metre advance for dissent.
Back when I was playing, if the offender didn't shut up, the Ref would award multiple advances and march a team back fifty or sixty metres.
However, this is before there was the option of a yellow card.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
What I don't like about scrum penalties is that referees will generally call a penalty when a scrum is being dominated by one of the teams. Sometimes it just looks like dominance and the other team aren't actually infringing
Yep, then you have scrums that are stable and the ball could come out easily but the team keeps it in to try force a penalty because they think the ref is favouring them.
And of course props boring in or binding short (watch how often a scrum collapses and the prop on one side is bound on the shoulder or armpit).
There's plenty more as well and all combined they give teams too many options to "earn" cheap shots for 3 points. Even worse is that so many refs compound the problem with yellow cards.
I think it's this that's infuriates me watching rugby as an outsider really, it loses some of it's credibillity as a sport when games are won and lost by a man deciding someone's hips are pointing the wrong way.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
What I don't like about scrum penalties is that referees will generally call a penalty when a scrum is being dominated by one of the teams. Sometimes it just looks like dominance and the other team aren't actually infringing
Yep, then you have scrums that are stable and the ball could come out easily but the team keeps it in to try force a penalty because they think the ref is favouring them.
And of course props boring in or binding short (watch how often a scrum collapses and the prop on one side is bound on the shoulder or armpit).
There's plenty more as well and all combined they give teams too many options to "earn" cheap shots for 3 points. Even worse is that so many refs compound the problem with yellow cards.
I think it's this that's infuriates me watching rugby as an outsider really, it loses some of it's credibillity as a sport when games are won and lost by a man deciding someone's hips are pointing the wrong way.
And when the scrum half puts the ball in straight to the 2nd row….might as well rename hooker as middle prop
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Please humour me as I know little about rugby and enjoy watching international tests. I have always been led to believe that when the referee makes a decision it is accepted with respect and almost without question. What I'm seeing now is almost every decision is being debated and not just by Owen Farrell. Am I correct in my observations.
It's certainly creeping into the game.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
What I don't like about scrum penalties is that referees will generally call a penalty when a scrum is being dominated by one of the teams. Sometimes it just looks like dominance and the other team aren't actually infringing
Yep, then you have scrums that are stable and the ball could come out easily but the team keeps it in to try force a penalty because they think the ref is favouring them.
And of course props boring in or binding short (watch how often a scrum collapses and the prop on one side is bound on the shoulder or armpit).
There's plenty more as well and all combined they give teams too many options to "earn" cheap shots for 3 points. Even worse is that so many refs compound the problem with yellow cards.
I think it's this that's infuriates me watching rugby as an outsider really, it loses some of it's credibillity as a sport when games are won and lost by a man deciding someone's hips are pointing the wrong way.
And when the scrum half puts the ball in straight to the 2nd row….might as well rename hooker as middle prop
I don't mind feeding (to an extent) as much, with the size and power professional scrums have it can be very difficult for the attacking team to hook against an opponent that are all pushing, it is a restart but there should be some advantage for the team putting in.
I honestly think the scrum is the only part of the sport that needs serious review by officials because it's not even inconsistency, it's outright lack of understanding from the refs that means whichever front row convinces him they're being cheated gets the calls and once they're on top there's loads of little tricks to make sure the ref sees what you want him to.
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I agree, scrum penalties are terrible for the game at the highest level because they encourage a lot of negative play.
What I don't like about scrum penalties is that referees will generally call a penalty when a scrum is being dominated by one of the teams. Sometimes it just looks like dominance and the other team aren't actually infringing
Yep, then you have scrums that are stable and the ball could come out easily but the team keeps it in to try force a penalty because they think the ref is favouring them.
And of course props boring in or binding short (watch how often a scrum collapses and the prop on one side is bound on the shoulder or armpit).
There's plenty more as well and all combined they give teams too many options to "earn" cheap shots for 3 points. Even worse is that so many refs compound the problem with yellow cards.
I think it's this that's infuriates me watching rugby as an outsider really, it loses some of it's credibillity as a sport when games are won and lost by a man deciding someone's hips are pointing the wrong way.
And when the scrum half puts the ball in straight to the 2nd row….might as well rename hooker as middle prop
I don't mind feeding (to an extent) as much, with the size and power professional scrums have it can be very difficult for the attacking team to hook against an opponent that are all pushing, it is a restart but there should be some advantage for the team putting in.
I honestly think the scrum is the only part of the sport that needs serious review by officials because it's not even inconsistency, it's outright lack of understanding from the refs that means whichever front row convinces him they're being cheated gets the calls and once they're on top there's loads of little tricks to make sure the ref sees what you want him to.
The breakdown is the other area for me Paul, as against it seems that players are able to milk penalties without even really attempting to play the ball. If you watch a game closely, nearly every breakdown had multiple infringements going on and Ireland and New Zealand in particular are masters of illegal breakdown play.
On the subject of the scrum, here's that last vital one from another angle
[
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The breakdown is the other area for me Paul, as against it seems that players are able to milk penalties without even really attempting to play the ball. If you watch a game closely, nearly every breakdown had multiple infringements going on and Ireland and New Zealand in particular are masters of illegal breakdown play.
On the subject of the scrum, here's that last vital one from another angle
[
The breakdown is much more complicated for me, most of the time it's really well handled with refs giving players the benefit of the doubt and asking them to take a step back, etc but every now and then you get some inconsistency where certain players get away with more or less and it feels like a worse problem than it actually is.
I agree though NZ play it right on the edge and get the benefit of the doubt far too often but they're not alone. The team that actually piss me off the most around the breakdown right now are Wales because they've developed some terrible habits to slow the opposition down. The worst being how they intentionally make 'passive' tackles so the tackler is on the wrong side and then he always seems to roll clear in a way that slows things down without being obvious enough to give it as offside. Every now and then it's ok but they have whole defensive sets where every single tackle is the same and the fractions of time it creates add up to really upset the flow.
The one from Smith on Saturday (in the 80th minute) really pissed me off though, everyone except the ref knew what he was doing and it put us on the backfoot and meant they could be much more aggressive because we were outside kickable penalty range, which lead to the mistake that ended the game.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67206691
World Rugby has announced a new competition starting in 2026 as part of a "significant overhaul" of the men's international calendar.
The tournament will be made up of 24 teams, split into two divisions with 12 teams in each, with promotion and relegation starting from 2030.
The top division will include the 10 sides from the Six Nations and Rugby Championship, plus two unnamed others.
The World Cup will also be expanded to 24 teams from 2027.
The new competition - yet to be given an official name - will be played in July and November, replacing the current summer and autumn international windows.
It will take place in alternate years, excluding those which will include the World Cup and British and Irish Lions tours.
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This is aimed at Paul e, who seems to be the oricle regarding up and coming players.
Given we’re losing Lawes, Marler, Cole, Care to retirement and a few others who certainly won’t be around much longer, Billy V, May, Watson, Tuilagi, Daly
Then we have the likes of Marchent and Arundel going to France
Who have we coming through that could make the step up?
For me
Forwards.
We need to look at the front row and back row.
Backs.
Scrum half, Michell is fine, but not convinced with Van Portvelt (?)
Fly half, I think we’re fine, but we need a centre partnership and wingers with a back up full back.
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I think England need to be mega careful to ensure they don’t get into a mindset of essentially projecting forward too much to the next World Cup. Players who retire or who opt to play in France are out (although Arundell will be available), but other than that you need to evolve over time and don’t worry about 4 years time for now.
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I think England need to be mega careful to ensure they don’t get into a mindset of essentially projecting forward too much to the next World Cup. Players who retire or who opt to play in France are out (although Arundell will be available), but other than that you need to evolve over time and don’t worry about 4 years time for now.
I agree.
Originally I was only looking at retiring players, but then Johnny May is 34, Tuilagi 33 and Anthony Watson seems to be forever injured as is Henry Slade.
Ollie Lawrence is the obvious choice to step into inside centre and partner Marchent, but that’s it.
There have been a few players who were selected, but seem to have disappeared
Unless we’re allowed to select players from outside England then I fear we could be in the sh*t.
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I think England need to be mega careful to ensure they don’t get into a mindset of essentially projecting forward too much to the next World Cup. Players who retire or who opt to play in France are out (although Arundell will be available), but other than that you need to evolve over time and don’t worry about 4 years time for now.
I agree.
Originally I was only looking at retiring players, but then Johnny May is 34, Tuilagi 33 and Anthony Watson seems to be forever injured as is Henry Slade.
Ollie Lawrence is the obvious choice to step into inside centre and partner Marchent, but that’s it.
There have been a few players who were selected, but seem to have disappeared
Unless we’re allowed to select players from outside England then I fear we could be in the sh*t.
Particularly if any more clubs go bump. Quite conceivable that at the start of WC cycle that a few might head across the channel for the cash?
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I think Marchant made the call when he was out of favour under Jones. I would be surprised if it ends up being a one year thing and then he’s back. That’d give him 3 years and he’ll probably be a better player for the experience.
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I've never really understood the refusal of the RFU to pick players who play outside England especially now three Premiership clubs have gone bust.
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This is aimed at Paul e, who seems to be the oricle regarding up and coming players.
Given we’re losing Lawes, Marler, Cole, Care to retirement and a few others who certainly won’t be around much longer, Billy V, May, Watson, Tuilagi, Daly
Then we have the likes of Marchent and Arundel going to France
Who have we coming through that could make the step up?
For me
Forwards.
We need to look at the front row and back row.
Backs.
Scrum half, Michell is fine, but not convinced with Van Portvelt (?)
Fly half, I think we’re fine, but we need a centre partnership and wingers with a back up full back.
It's a tough one, and this will be a bit of an essay I'm afraid.
I think we potentially look really light on props, Genge, Rodd, Sinckler and Stuart will all still be around (but the last 2 have question marks for me) but there's not a lot of good options behind them right now. Rapava-Ruskin has been mentioned a bit but at 31 he's too old to be coming in now and there are 3-4 others in a similar situation who are too old to be called into the squad as cover but probably aren't international starts. On the loosehead side the obvious one to look at as the 3rd choice is Fin Baxter at Quins who looks a decent scrummager and is good around the breakdown. Tighthead is more difficult, I suspect Heyes will step up if Coles retires as expected but he's yet another I have question marks against. However in a couple of years Fasogbun and Fordjour should be ready to step up after both were excellent in the U20s.
Hooker - Theo Dan will take over soon and I think Blamire will come back into the mix as well and that's 2 very good options. Behind them there's 3-4 solid but unspectacular options around.
Lock - We probably have the most depth of any country in the world, and if we loosen up the restrictions on playing abroad the pool gets bigger as Ribbans can stay around. The big one, surprisingly for me, is that George Martin was exceptional in the semi-final and I think may well have pushed himself forward as a regular as the 5/6 that Lawes made his own. Isiekwe is another option to fill that same niche, but obviously he's well known to most. Keep an eye on Chunya Munga here as well, he's a fantastic prospect.
Back Row - We also have loads of depth. Only Lawes and Billy V are likely to drop from what we have now and to replace them we have Tom Pearson, Zach Mercer and/or Alfie Barbeary. Add in the other Willis and Curry brothers and we've got plenty of quality in depth. Also watch out for Cunningham-South coming through over the next year or 2.
9 - I think it's 3 from 4 going forward, Mitchell, Quirke, JVP (I'm not making your mistake of trying to spell it) and Randall, they give us plenty of options.
10 - Fin Smith is the big one here, I suspect he'll replace Ford in the squad before long.
Centres - Lawrence and Marchant are the obvious pairing but there's not a lot behind them, I wouldn't be surprised to see Freeman in the squad and used as an option here though, Saints have given him some time at 13 recently. Will Joseph is the other big option but, like 3-4 others on here, he's had to move following the collapse of Irish so will need some time to find his feet at Quins.
Wings - Arundell, Murley and Radwan are all quality and should have a lot more appearances between them. Behind them Ibitoye might well make the step up that has been predicted for him for a while and Cleaves looked very good for the U20s and could come into things in a year or 2.
Full-Back - Steward is clearly young enough for this to not be a problem position but I do have concerns about his ability on the counter-attack, that Marcus Smith got a game at 15 suggests England see the same problem. Freeman is a clear option here as well (and on the wing) and Josh Hodge will get a chance before too long.
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I've never really understood the refusal of the RFU to pick players who play outside England especially now three Premiership clubs have gone bust.
Agreed, it looks particularly short-sighted now.
In that big long post I've named 4 players who've found new clubs after Irish went bust, all of them have the quality to be England regulars over the next decade alongside Arundell but could easily have been 'lost' to us because of the stupid rules.
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I've never really understood the refusal of the RFU to pick players who play outside England especially now three Premiership clubs have gone bust.
I get the intention to try to ensure the domestic English game stays strong, however, in the current climate especially, it really is a rule that needs scrapping.
Steffan Armitage is probably the relatively recent one that springs to mind. He was probably in the top 3 back rowers in the world yet England were deprived of his services due to the rule.
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Wow so Lawes doesn’t get a send off game.
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Good, I can't stand that sort of thing, especially with internationals.
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I don’t if they don’t warrant it through performance, but I think he does. That said, it does show ruthlessness which we need.
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I don’t if they don’t warrant it through performance, but I think he does. That said, it does show ruthlessness which we need.
Seems a bit daft to me. He's been starting games on merit, so Borthwick should be picking the best team to try to win this game. It's not like one match is going to have a huge bearing on future planning, and leaving Lawes out all together seems a bit mean-spirited.
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I did read that Lawes announced his plan to retire on his socials and said he hadn't actually informed Borthwick or anyone else about it before posting. So maybe there's some bad feeling.
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Lawes has been our player of the tournament, it does feel a bit spiteful to not give him a last run out.
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Wow so Lawes doesn’t get a send off game.
However....Ben Youngs does
England: Smith; Steward, Marchant, Tuilagi, Arundell; Farrell (capt), Youngs; Genge, Dan, Stuart, Itoje, Chessum, Curry, Underhill, Earl.
Replacements: George, Rodd, Cole, Ribbans, Ludlam, Care, Ford, Lawrence.
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I wonder if he’s got a knock.
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Bongi Mbonambi cleared to play in the final. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67223507
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I wonder if he’s got a knock.
He's been in various training pictures apparently so it doesn't seem like it.
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Bongi Mbonambi cleared to play in the final. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67223507
World Rugby has really shot itself in the foot on this one. Not doing a proper investigation looks horrendous.
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Bongi Mbonambi cleared to play in the final. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67223507
World Rugby has really shot itself in the foot on this one. Not doing a proper investigation looks horrendous.
I had a feeling this would happen, so I’m not surprised.
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It's the sort of thing I'd not expect many people to pick up but the drift and draw from Smith before he put Earl through was exceptional. It's like 2-3 steps but it created the space for us to score.
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Well done Dan, cocked up and made amends.
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Well done Dan, cocked up and made amends.
Yep, considering he's a hooker that's a fantastic charge down. He's gotta be a regular starter before long, George has been on the downward slope for a couple of years now.
Ben Youngs is having the sort of impact I always expect from him...
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Tossers, booing the kicker!!!
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Following the big step forward last week this has been pretty poor tonight. Summed up by Tuilagi going off and choosing the bring on Ford instead of Lawrence to replace him, leading to 10minutes of utter Blues from England who looked like they had no idea how to approach the game without a battering ram in midfield.
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Argentina are a bunch of whinging bastards, bloody hell.
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If you’d had offered me a bronze medal before the World Cup I’d have been delighted. They’ve done well to get it, but the build has to start now.
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Well done to England, did much better than expected.
Now go the AB's.
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Major risk by Erasmus in not having a reserve scrum half in the 23
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Particularly when the one he has picked has the most punchable face in rugby….worth 10 minutes sit down for the All Blacks to clatter him
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Major risk by Erasmus in not having a reserve scrum half in the 23
He’ll probably cheat his way to get one in, if needed 🤔
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Have a feeling that New Zealand might just shade it, but I hope South Africa win tonight.
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I hope NZ win.
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Karma.
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I thought it looked like SAs to lose when I saw the teams/benches. The only thing that potentially changes it for me is an injury/booking for faf.
I don't think NZ have it in them to handle this degree of physicality, which is how they lost to France as well.
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That from Cane is a red for me, had time and visibility to change his height and just went shoulder first into the head.
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Red for Sam Cane, massive blow for the All Blacks.
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Mbonambi of injured. Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
Cane off with a red. Ridiculous.
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The Irish commentators felt it was a red from the start, given he didn't dip going into it.
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Not an expert, but the sending off seems harsh to me.
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Kriel ran into his shoulder. Fucking ridiculous decision, rugby is ruining itself.
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Etzebeth should have been carded for blocking the pass.
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Well that’s the game.
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nah. on the current rules that was as red as it gets. He had plenty of time to get lower or pull out of the 'hit'. As soon as he went through with the tackle at that height he was in trouble.
If you take concussion/head impacts seriously it was exactly the sort of tackle you want out of the game.
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Is it as desperately dull as it was always going to be?
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nah. on the current rules that was as red as it gets. He had plenty of time to get lower or pull out of the 'hit'. As soon as he went through with the tackle at that height he was in trouble.
If you take concussion/head impacts seriously it was exactly the sort of tackle you want out of the game.
Rob Kearney, Matt Williams and Shane Horgan had zero doubt that it was a red card. They were also glad that it was given (rather than not in case it "ruined" the final) to show World Rugby is serious about your last point.
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Well seeing it again several times over and in slow mo it looks the right decision sadly.
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Evens it up but that’ll stay yellow I’d have thought.
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Agree, that didn't look like a red to me. Would be harsh if they 'evened' it up.
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yeah, the Kolisi one will stay yellow.
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I do hope someone puts a reducer on DeKlerk soon.
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The next few minutes is massive now though, NZ need a score here.
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Remains a yellow for Kolisi.
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Mongo subbed off
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5 professional fouls by SA but let’s all look at the knock on.
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Come on NZ!
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bit of a gift from the officials that, it definitely went forward out of his hand.
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Christie is only allowed out after dark.
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SA have thrown this away by having no plan B to take advantage of the extra man. No replacement for Faf on the bench is looking like an awful decision.
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SA will fuck it up if NZ get some ball and territory here.
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I reckon the du toit tackle a minute or so back might be the pivotal moment, NZ were away if he'd missed that.
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Boooooooooooooooooo
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Boooo indeed.
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Boooooooooooooooooo
x2
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Kwagga Smith has had the biggest impact of any player in this world cup:
got away with playing it on the floor against France leading to the winning penalty.
got away with coming round the side and falling into Care when we had an overlap with seconds on the clock and would've at least been into drop goal range as a result.
got away with pretty clearly playing it on the floor today which pretty much ended the chance of NZ getting late points.
For all the things I love about the sport there are too many cases of key matches being won by 'playing on the edge'.
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Not a popular win that one. Nothing to like about Rassie and the rest of em.
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Erasmus should have got a lifetime ban after the second Lions test.
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So annoying that we were the only team to beat the "World Champions" but we are not the "World Champions"!
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It’s illustrative of Ireland’s problem at the World Cup isn’t it? Can only win when it’s not do or die and it really matters.
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So annoying that we were the only team to beat the "World Champions" but we are not the "World Champions"!
Not as annoying as it would have been for the other countries if a small nation where rugby is the 4th sport were the 'World Champions'. :)
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So annoying that we were the only team to beat the "World Champions" but we are not the "World Champions"!
Not as annoying as it would have been for the other countries if a small nation where rugby is the 4th sport were the 'World Champions'. :)
As if that's ever going to happen ;)
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I think I’ve finally sussed out my irrational dislike of DeKlerk, he’s just a South African version of Robbie Savage.
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South Africa had all the big decisions go their way from the QF’s. They shouldn’t have been in the semi’s
Vrs France,
Etzebeth yellow should have been upgraded to red, He went on to score a try.
Ginger prop should have had a yellow for scrum infringements, which would have had them down to 13.
Kolbe’ s charge down of the conversion should have been looked at.
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I think I’ve finally sussed out my irrational dislike of DeKlerk, he’s just a South African version of Robbie Savage.
😂
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BBC posted a team of the tournament - "Using the unique Opta Index - which objectively scores each player's performances throughout the campaign - we can select the best XV of the tournament."
Interestingly, there's only 1 South African player in the 15.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/976/cpsprodpb/60E7/production/_131570842_microsoftteams-image-7.png)
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Eddie Jones has resigned. https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67254778
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BBC posted a team of the tournament - "Using the unique Opta Index - which objectively scores each player's performances throughout the campaign - we can select the best XV of the tournament."
Interestingly, there's only 1 South African player in the 15.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cps/976/cpsprodpb/60E7/production/_131570842_microsoftteams-image-7.png)
I reckon that's pretty fair as well, I don't think SA had anyone who stood out, just lots of 7/10 performances that added up.
I'm not surprised that Lawes is in there, he must've been close to player of the tournament, he was almost faultless and is easily the biggest loss for us of the retirees.
Of the list the only shock for me is Mo'unga who I don't think was particularly good but I don't think any of the 10s had a great tournament.
I'm glad they didn't limit themselves to the countries that got to the knockouts as well.
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Village trick-or-treating for the kids tonight, Dan Cole was there dressed as a skeleton.
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Must have been a pretty big skeleton!
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Skivington, Waldouck and Vesty confirmed as the coaching team for England A vs Portugal next month. I'm happy with that, all young enough to have time to learn and develop as coaches but all talented enough to be around the England setup in the long-term. Vesty in particular has had a massive impact at Saints and I suspect he'll want a few of his lads there to build the team around but it'll depend on who is in the main squad. That's announced next week but I'm not sure in the A's will be at the same time (but I assume it will be).
Dingwall with the As as the leader of the backs (and potentially captain) is my guess because I don't think Borthwick will go for him but he's key to how Vesty sets up the Saints backline.
Waldouck and Skivington are more difficult to assess because Glaws are having a poor season (and weren't great last year either) but people I know who've met them both are full of praise for their coaching. I really hope Waldouck does well because he had a horrible time as a player where he should really have got 50+ caps but every time he got on the radar he got injured again and fell away.
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Good to see so many in form picks but George as captain and the potential reliance on Cole and Marler is a little worrying.
Very happy to see the saints backline get their reward for being excellent all season.
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Good to see so many in form picks but George as captain and the potential reliance on Cole and Marler is a little worrying.
Very happy to see the saints backline get their reward for being excellent all season.
I think the reliance on them is ok for this 6 Nations, as I can understand not wanting to transition too much all at once.
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England squad
Forwards: Ollie Chessum, Dan Cole, Alex Coles, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Theo Dan, Alex Dombrandt, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George (capt), Joe Heyes, Nick Isiekwe, Maro Itoje, Joe Marler, Beno Obano, Tom Pearson, Ethan Roots, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill.
Backs: Oscar Beard, Danny Care, Elliot Daly, Fraser Dingwall, Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, George Ford, Tommy Freeman, George Furbank, Ollie Lawrence, Alex Mitchell, Tom Roebuck, Henry Slade, Fin Smith, Marcus Smith, Ben Spencer, Freddie Steward.
I thought we’d have moved on past Dan Cole and Marler. Sinkler seems to have lost his way and Will Stuart flatters to deceive.
I suppose it shows we have a lack of depth at prop.
I’m guessing Care and Daly are there to add a bit of experience to the squad. I happen to like both players, but, again, I thought we may have had some options coming through.
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England squad
Forwards: Ollie Chessum, Dan Cole, Alex Coles, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Chandler Cunningham-South, Ben Curry, Theo Dan, Alex Dombrandt, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George (capt), Joe Heyes, Nick Isiekwe, Maro Itoje, Joe Marler, Beno Obano, Tom Pearson, Ethan Roots, Will Stuart, Sam Underhill.
Backs: Oscar Beard, Danny Care, Elliot Daly, Fraser Dingwall, Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, George Ford, Tommy Freeman, George Furbank, Ollie Lawrence, Alex Mitchell, Tom Roebuck, Henry Slade, Fin Smith, Marcus Smith, Ben Spencer, Freddie Steward.
I thought we’d have moved on past Dan Cole and Marler. Sinkler seems to have lost his way and Will Stuart flatters to deceive.
I suppose it shows we have a lack of depth at prop.
I’m guessing Care and Daly are there to add a bit of experience to the squad. I happen to like both players, but, again, I thought we may have had some options coming through.
Care really shouldn't be there but injuries have taken away a few options so I'd suspect Mitchell is the first choice and the other 2 will fight out for the bench. Spencer is in good form but he's 31 so isn't really a pick for the future.
Daly is just a bizarre choice for me because he's been poor for about 18months. He was a very good 13 at Wasps but it's been awhile and now he's an average winger who only really makes sense if you want an extra kicking option, which worries me because this set of backs shouldn't be playing a territorial kicking game.
I agree that the prop options look a little thin but becoming a international standard prop is about experience as much as anything. Marler was a poor scrummager when he came through but was given the game time for club and country and became a very good prop.
Our problem now is that someone like Obano has been around the fringe of the England squad for 7 years but has 3 caps and at 29 is a bit to old to be there "for the experience". I'd have liked to see us force ourselves into a situation where we had 2 clear starters (probably Genge and Stuart) and then people like Heyes and Obano behind them as 2nd choice knowing they'll be getting game time.
That way the 3rd choice in the squad can go to players like Haffar and Opoku-Fordjour who are still very young and will gain a lot more from being around the camp. If you pick up an injury then you can look at players like Marler and Coles to come in and fill a temporary gap but picking them in the original squad means they'll both be in the 23 and Obano and Heyes will end up being sent back to their clubs other than maybe getting a run against Italy.
All that said Sincklers form dropping off a cliff has caused a huge problem because, like you, I don't think much of Stuart. We still need to work something out before the Autumn though because Cole will be 39 by the next world cup and he's already useless in the loose.
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Is Chandler Cunningham South 3 players?
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Is Chandler Cunningham South 3 players?
Size wise he's not far off.
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Is Chandler Cunningham South 3 players?
Well known firm of solicitors I believe
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England U20 side ha been named today (ahead of the game on Friday which can be watched on the BBC website). The ones to watch that I know of are Opoku-Fordjour in the front row and then Carnduff and Pollock at 6 and 7.
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Don't fancy Ireland's chances tonight. I think the post Sexton era will be a bumpy one for a while.
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Don't fancy Ireland's chances tonight. I think the post Sexton era will be a bumpy one for a while.
I think it'll be a good game tonight, lots of very good players in both sides but both missing a key player that has been key to them for the last few years (in Sexton and Dupont). Ollivon vs O'Mahony is the key battle in my opinion.
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Neither do I, away to France and in Marseille. Winner tonight probably wins the championship, COYBIG!
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We should be about 21 points up at this point. Will regret some of these missed chances.
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We should be about 21 points up at this point. Will regret some of these missed chances.
Tep, you've started really well and had the best of the calls from the ref (not the yellow, that was spot on) but you've not really taken advantage.
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Much better, great try.
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Side note - that white and navy jersey the ref has on is quite nice.
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Not sure about that decision. Squeeky bum time.
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Not sure about that decision. Squeeky bum time.
The french try? Looked like it touched the line for me, once it was given on field it was never being overturned. The POM yellow was 100%, really dumb from him.
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I think that's enough for Ireland now, poor defence from France.
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Not sure about that decision. Squeeky bum time.
The french try? Looked like it touched the line for me, once it was given on field it was never being overturned. The POM yellow was 100%, really dumb from him.
I thought it looked like he'd lost control before the line. PoM's yellow was correct, no question.
Hopefully..... it doesn't matter now. Hopefully.
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Impressive performance by Ireland tonight.
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I wish David Flatman would stop talking.
Well played the Irish, excellent performance from a superb side.
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Absolutely massive result for Ireland and well deserved, won the breakdown quite comfortably and the french defence was shockingly poor.
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Was expecting a post-World Cup hangover, so didn't expect to win in France (never mind by 21 points). Pleased for PO'M as captain.
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I thought we looked a bit wobbly at times. Probably got lucky that France were down to 14 for most of the 80. A bit more pressure from them early on and I'm not sure we'd have looked as comfortable. Still, a good start to the campaign, and life post Sexton. I thought Crowley looked ok at 10, made a few errors, but it's to be expected. Joe McCarthy looks like a proper player! I was surprised to see him start over James Ryan but he was phenomenal.
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Right come on England.
I'm a little disappointed with a few of the selections, Ford over Fin Smith is the one I really don't like but Steward and Daly in the back 3 suggests we'll carry on with the territory based game we've seen so far under Borthwick. On Form i'd have gone with Furrbank and Feyi-Waboso instead and played a more fluid style, leaning into what has made Saints, Bath and Quins look so good this season.
Not haivng Pearson in the 23 is insane for me, he's miles ahead of Underhill and Roots in form this season, and is probably the best back row player in the premiership right now. Having someone there with that pace and try scoring record and not giving yourself the option to use him is a really poor call.
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New England but their discipline is a bad as it ever was.
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We're just lacking mobility in the pack, Marler, George, and Roots in particular aren't getting around the pitch and it's making a defence really messy. Roots offers a lot of grunt in big carries but nothing else.
Ford has been really poor as well, targeted in defence and wayward with the boot.
Freeman is the bright spot, every time he's got on the ball he's made things happen.
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How bad are Wales? Dismal first-half from them.
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Better second-half from Wales. They couldn't, could they? 8)
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Watching villa and the rugby. My eyesight is struggling changing focus from the iPad to the TV. The wine doesn’t help.
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Hard luck Wales, just couldn't do it in the end. No bonus point for Scotland despite their efforts in the last few minutes.
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For all the criticism of England around their discipline that from Scotland tonight was a disgrace, I din't think i've ever seen a team fall apart so completley before.
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3 away wins is interesting as well, that doesn't happen very often.
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Interesting TMO decision at the end of that Scotland France game.
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Interesting TMO decision at the end of that Scotland France game.
He very nearly changed it….stupid bit was he had a better view than the cameras
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If that was a yellow card then rugby can fuck right off.
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Both Yellows are super harsh, the decision to give a penalty try was really cheap given Earl had his arms around the ball.
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Wonder if this ref is going to work out there are two teams to officiate?
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To be fair this scoreline isn't flattering Wales. What's funny is this is a really weak Wales squad, that England can't lay a glove on them is a fucking embarrassment. Borthwick is very quickly showing that he's not an international standard coach.
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Wish England had Gatland.
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Wish England had Gatland.
Correct & a fly half also
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Wish England had Gatland.
Correct & a fly half also
Fin Smith would be a huge ramp up in quality. Our backs just haven't functioned at all and Ford is a b ig part of the problem.
No idea why Daly is still on either and Roots has been awful too.
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RTE's coverage is bit ahead of ITV's, which is odd. Don't worry, I won't do any SCORRRRRRRRRCHIOOOOOOs.
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A win is a win…two very moderate teams, so little incision on show
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A win is a win…two very moderate teams, so little incision on show
The thing about that is, Wales are strugglnig with loads of injuries and retirements to key players right through the squad. England don't have that excuse, yes there are some players with only a handful of caps but that's mostly due to Jones and Borthwick being scared to give them any gametime. Fin Smith is probably the form 10 in English rugby this season and he's been given 6 minutes across 2 games where Ford has been very poor.
It's a win but there just as many problems with England now as there was this time last year and I reckon we're on for 3 defeats from here now we've snuck through against the 2 wooden spoon contenders.
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A win is a win…two very moderate teams, so little incision on show
The thing about that is, Wales are strugglnig with loads of injuries and retirements to key players right through the squad. England don't have that excuse, yes there are some players with only a handful of caps but that's mostly due to Jones and Borthwick being scared to give them any gametime. Fin Smith is probably the form 10 in English rugby this season and he's been given 6 minutes across 2 games where Ford has been very poor.
It's a win but there just as many problems with England now as there was this time last year and I reckon we're on for 3 defeats from here now we've snuck through against the 2 wooden spoon contenders.
Fully agree but there is a ‘face fits’ thing with England, Ford and Daly are two same a Youngs who was 40 caps heavy before he retired. Firm has never been a key criteria
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RTE's coverage is bit ahead of ITV's, which is odd. Don't worry, I won't do any SCORRRRRRRRRCHIOOOOOOs.
ITV's football coverage has been on a notably longer lag behind the radio during this year's FA Cup than it usually is and the gap for both that and the 6N is longer than on the BBC.
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They got the win. Not great, but a lot of new coaches and combinations so prepared to see if it’ll bed in better.
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They got the win. Not great, but a lot of new coaches and combinations so prepared to see if it’ll bed in better.
I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact that despite loads of new faces it felt like exactly what we saw last 6N and it's a lot like how Leicester were playing under Borthwick as well.
My problem is that it feels like rugby by spreadsheet and the players who offer a spark of brilliance to do something different are being neutered.
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And you might well be right. It’s just I’m prepared to wait and see on the basis that Borthwicj has at least recognised he needed new coaching input.
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I was reasonably excited by the squad picked for the tournament. Borthwick has gone about as conservative as possible from it though.
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Having seen everyone else, bar Italy, play twice now, it would be worse than the World Cup let down if Ireland don't do the Slam again. I still feel like we were wobbly against France early on and were lucky they were wobbly all game, but we still look miles above England, Wales, and Scotland.
I fully expect this to come back and bite me on the bum, but I don't think it's going to be a very exciting 6 Nations this year.
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Having seen everyone else, bar Italy, play twice now, it would be worse than the World Cup let down if Ireland don't do the Slam again. I still feel like we were wobbly against France early on and were lucky they were wobbly all game, but we still look miles above England, Wales, and Scotland.
I fully expect this to come back and bite me on the bum, but I don't think it's going to be a very exciting 6 Nations this year.
The winner of the France v Ireland game was basically guaranteed a grand slam
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I think the microphone's bigger than the kid singing Ireland's Call. ;D
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Fair play to the little lad off the Toy Show belting out Ireland's Call there.
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There's a new series of 'Slammed' on BBC Wales and iPlayer, covering the Wales international teams of the 1980s
Bloody hell, Jiffy was some player
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00136pq/episodes/player
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I saw him play RL against Sheffield Eagles once. The word was that he wouldn't be fit to play because of an iffy hamstring. In the second half, he got the ball on his own try-line and went on a run that would have seen him beat every player on the opposing team had the full-back not saved the try with a last-gasp tap tackle.
Yep, he could play a bit.
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Few changes for the Scotland game. Daly still in the team though :'(
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Few changes for the Scotland game. Daly still in the team though :'(
Personally I'd have kept Steward and Dingwall in (but moved them to 11 and 13 respectively) and dropped Daly and Slade, right now the biggest problem with this team is we have too many players who like to kick the ball if they can't see anything on.
That said I hope they've worked with Furbank cutting in between 10-12 or 12-13 because he's been exceptional at doing that this season.
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Wales are so weak, Ireland aren't playing particularly well here but they don't need to because if they just keep the ball in hand and work through the phases they know the chances will come and in defence they can just wait for the mistakes.
If you named a lions squad now Reffell would be the only Welsh player in it for me.
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Cheered off for a dump tackle says everything you need to know about Scottish rugby fans.
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England have been pathetic today, absolutely nothing in attack beyond kicking for territory and crash running from the forwards. Borewick is totally out of his depth and has no idea how to fix this.
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From someone who knows the sum total of fuck all about Rugby, is Borthwick Rugby's version of Southgate?
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From someone who knows the sum total of fuck all about Rugby, is Borthwick Rugby's version of Southgate?
Honestly I think he's worse. The game plan today was about on a par with the stuff Dyche servers up.
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A terrible appointment by the RFU.
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Perhaps I know a bit more than I thought then because those were my thoughts.
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Started off great, then…
Handling error after handling error after handling error!!!
That is down to the players.
Taking nothing from Scotland or Van de Merwe, but those tries were handed to him on a plate.
You take away just one of those and you’re looking at an England win because we had a couple of kickable penalties which went to the corners.
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The 2 ass whoopings that will no doubt follow should see the end of Borthwick with luck.
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Very incoherent. My personal bug bear, I just don’t see it with Lawrence. He’s powerful, but I don’t think he’s up to much.
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Very incoherent. My personal bug bear, I just don’t see it with Lawrence. He’s powerful, but I don’t think he’s up to much.
I like him but he was awful today.
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If Ireland get a BP win at Twickenham that's the tournament wrapped up before the last round. Grand Slam would still be on, but it must be a while since things were wrapped up before the last weekend?
Ireland have looked good but I'm not sure we've had any real opposition. South Africa will be a really big step up in the summer.
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The Rugby League World Club Challenge game was far more exciting than the second half of the Calcutta Cup game I saw.
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If Ireland get a BP win at Twickenham that's the tournament wrapped up before the last round. Grand Slam would still be on, but it must be a while since things were wrapped up before the last weekend?
Ireland have looked good but I'm not sure we've had any real opposition. South Africa will be a really big step up in the summer.
Ha ha whaddya mean if?
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If Ireland get a BP win at Twickenham that's the tournament wrapped up before the last round. Grand Slam would still be on, but it must be a while since things were wrapped up before the last weekend?
Ireland have looked good but I'm not sure we've had any real opposition. South Africa will be a really big step up in the summer.
Ha ha whaddya mean if?
I'm respecting our opposition and not taking anything for granted. We barely got the BP win today and Wales aren't much better than England.
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Did Van De Merwe touch the ball besides his 3 tries? How is a tier 1 international defence as poor as this England one?
Borthwick has to be jettisoned at the end of this tournament. A favourable draw in the world cup massively flattered England. Struggling to beat awful Italian and Welsh sides, then being exposed by Scotland is not acceptable
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Scotland have won the Calcutta Cup 4 years in a row now. I know England are currently pretty awful, but they haven't been for 4 years, have they?
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Scotland have won the Calcutta Cup 4 years in a row now. I know England are currently pretty awful, but they haven't been for 4 years, have they?
Yes. They've been very poor since the 2019 world cup. England have had 4 consecutive years of only winning 2 games in a Six Nations campaign
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Scotland are a decent side and have some very dangerous playerbut England fell apart after the 2019 world cup when Jones decided that the way to beat SA was to become a wish version of them which cost him his job. Borthwick then came in and did a Gerrardby stepping up a level and hoping the trick that has worked for him before would just keep working.
It means England play the most extreme version of percentage rugby going, with us aiming for 4-5 phases of crash ball to break the defensive line and if that doesn't work kick it away.
On top of that if a crash runner isn't available - kick it away, if the ruck is slow - kick it away, if we're in our own half don't even look for a potential overload - kick it away.
I'm not against kicking in general but with England it's at the expense of any other plan.
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Scotland have won the Calcutta Cup 4 years in a row now.
Yes, for the first time since 1896, a year in which we won the league title. Could it be an omen?
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If Ireland get a BP win at Twickenham that's the tournament wrapped up before the last round. Grand Slam would still be on, but it must be a while since things were wrapped up before the last weekend?
Ha ha whaddya mean if?
We never take any win at Twickenham for granted, and England gave us a game at home last year.
Wary of Scotland at home as well as they are a decent side now, plus Russell and van der Merwe are capable of moments of magic at any time. However, the post-match analysis picked up on a point Paul_e made, namely that it was easy for the Scottish defenders yesterday with lone attackers running at them but it will be different against Ireland.
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Forza Italia!
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Italy have been excellent this half but France clearly haven't got over their awful world cup. The red card was such dumb play from Danty and let Italy back into it.
Special mention for Galthie though who has created problems by subbing off Tuilagi and Baille who were doing a fantastic job of keeping the Italian defence narrow.
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Ahhhhh what a horrible miss!
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Ahhhhh what a horrible miss!
Caused by the ball falling off the tee and having to be replaced, that will repeat in his head for a while. Poor guy.
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To be honest England have been poor, with the exception of a few short phases (e.g. 2019 WC), for 8 years. It’s constant talk of building towards something that never arrives and it’s pathetic. It goes beyond just coaching, it’s very much structural, but even accounting for that the substandard performances that are trotted out year after year are not good enough.
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https://www.rugbydump.com/news/jonny-may-explains-english-attacking-woes-in-fascinating-interview
Not a massive surprise but confirmation that England have done very little attack coaching for years.
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Not a gambler myself, but notice that France are only 6 point favourites against Wales. Seems pretty generous if you fancy France to beat them.
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Not a gambler myself, but notice that France are only 6 point favourites against Wales. Seems pretty generous if you fancy France to beat them.
France are a bit of a mess right now for 2 big reasons. Firstly Lucu and Jalibert are nowhere near the quality of Dupont and Ntamack which means their attack is really flat and secondly they have a bad world cup hangover which means there's a fragility to them that needs to be fixed.
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I understand France haven't played well, but still seemed lowish to me when Wales have been no great shakes either.
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Didn’t realise Jamie George is a Villa fan. Good man.
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If Italy hang on here Ireland have won the Championship, I think?
Edit - never mind, 2 BP likely for Scotland, at least
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Excellent stuff, well done Italy!
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England haven’t kicked off yet but I’m already
Getting annoyed about Ford kicking the ball away constantly :-)
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I feel a bit for Nash but you can't tackle someone with the power of Freeman like that.
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England have played really well but not enough points to show for it.
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England have played really well but not enough points to show for it.
The missed kick from Ford was unacceptable
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Yeah, England deserve to be ahead.
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Worst Super Bowl half-time show ever. :(
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Yeah, England deserve to be ahead.
Ahead? They could be out of sight!
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Get George Ford off.
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Not enjoying this game 😬
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Well played England, deserved the win in the end.
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Wow
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England played with much more intent and suddenly players like Freeman, Furbank and Lawrence showed what they can do.
Earl was superb as well.
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Put that Triple Crown, Grand Slam & 6 Nations trophy down Seamus!
Thought that Daly long ranger would cost us the game there.
Great game, Ireland undoubtedly will be champions and quite rightly so.
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Fully deserved!
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If Italy hang on here Ireland have won the Championship, I think?
Edit - never mind, 2 BP likely for Scotland, at least
Life comes at you pretty fast....
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If Italy hang on here Ireland have won the Championship, I think?
Edit - never mind, 2 BP likely for Scotland, at least
Life comes at you pretty fast....
Doesn’t come close to the absolute bell ends on commentary on ITV, according to them it was all sewn up in the 44th minute.
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If Italy hang on here Ireland have won the Championship, I think?
Edit - never mind, 2 BP likely for Scotland, at least
Life comes at you pretty fast....
Doesn’t come close to the absolute bell ends on commentary on ITV, according to them it was all sewn up in the 44th minute.
To be fair, to me, for a few minutes before Scotland scored the 4th try, I think I was correct. Even losing to England we'd still have been crowned Champions.
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Hell of a performance from England. Just so much intensity and a lot more fluidity and accuracy.
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If Italy hang on here Ireland have won the Championship, I think?
Edit - never mind, 2 BP likely for Scotland, at least
Life comes at you pretty fast....
Doesn’t come close to the absolute bell ends on commentary on ITV, according to them it was all sewn up in the 44th minute.
To be fair, to me, for a few minutes before Scotland scored the 4th try, I think I was correct. Even losing to England we'd still have been crowned Champions.
But England could have got a try bonus point and won by more than seven leaving Ireland only two points ahead of England regardless of the outcome of the Scotland game, so not close!
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Probably could have had a penalty try at the end for the persistent foul play but hey ho.
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Clearly it’s about more than one player but I thought Feyi made a huge difference.
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Clearly it’s about more than one player but I thought Feyi made a huge difference.
The back 3 made 240m with ball in hand, it's been more like 100m in the earlier games
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I know it might sound childish, but it was worth losing to Scotland to get this performance and stop Ireland getting the Slam and triple crown
I know people are saying we wasn’t great vrs Scotland, and in fairness we wasn’t, but we hold on to the ball and it becomes a different game. Fine margins
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George North retiring from international rugby after the Italy game.
An excellent player for Wales and the Lions.
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George North retiring from international rugby after the Italy game.
An excellent player for Wales and the Lions.
He was a world class winger, he's not been the same since his run of head injuries a few years back and I've never rated him in the centres.
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Italy ripping it up in Cardiff.
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How bad are Wales? Italy could still finish 3rd if they can get a couple of more tries.
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How's that a try? He fucking dropped it
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Ha ha, never a try in a million years
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I can understand why George North wants to retire,
Fk me Wales are shocking
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Going off injured is a fitting end to George North's career there
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Would have liked him to go out with a win and a try. Top player.
Costello’s kicking was abysmal and cost Wales a lot.
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Ireland champions
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Ireland champions
Scotland gave them a bit of a scare, but well deserved champions
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When will England cut out the basic errors?
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I thought Smith touched that on the line, rather than carrying it over 🤷♂️
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England are their own worst enemy
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Reverted to type here.
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England are their own worst enemy
The story of their 6 nations, apart from Ireland.
Nice try before HT
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Congratulations Ireland.🇮🇪
I think we might get a foot back on this game, but the French guys do look like a pack of orcas overwhelming a seal on an ice floe!
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Get the fk in 🏉
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Get the fk in 🏉
And again
Come on
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Better. Much better from England
Edit ::) fucks sake
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This many basic errors is unacceptable and suggests a training issue to me.
We've got so much quality though that any time things click we look excellent.
Lawrence and Freeman have shown flashes of club form and should be the heart of the new backline going forward.
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Brilliant try, great from Freeman to get up after a big carry in midfield and get himself back on the outside.
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Threw it away
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That was a fun game to watch.
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Great game
Maybe should have gone long with kick off after Freemans try.
England have progressed through through the tournament and shown a lot of promise
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Intensely frustrating that two of France's tries came from our line-outs!!
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Intensely frustrating that two of France's tries came from our line-outs!!
And if you go back to the Scotland game, two, or possibly three, of their tries came from our handling errors.
These didn’t happen vrs Ireland, and we won.
I know it doesn’t work out this way, but four errors cost us the Slam 😉
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England clearly improved as the tournament progressed but the basic errors never got addressed. I still have concerns at how much of the attacking was off the cuff which leads to things like Care kicking away possession with a couple of mins on the clock and England trying to protect a lead.
We havea huge amount of quality in the squad but I'm still not convinced Borthwick will be able to consistently make use of that.
It'll be interesting to see which players walk away now though because we have major problems at prop if Cole and Marler both go and there's a big decision to be made at 9 behind Mitchell.
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The two prop positions do worry me.
Cole and Marler, as good as they have been, should be no where near starting.
Genie is hot and cold, Sinkler has disappeared and, whereas, Will Stewart is decent enough but, for me, just misses something.
To be fair I might be way off, I didn’t dabble in the dark arts when I was playing.
Hooker we’re fine. George is still excellent while Dann is more than capable.
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Clearly the last two performances have given some reasons for optimism, but for me I need to see this sustained and built upon. I’ve been burnt by false dawns too many times!
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The two prop positions do worry me.
Cole and Marler, as good as they have been, should be no where near starting.
Genie is hot and cold, Sinkler has disappeared and, whereas, Will Stewart is decent enough but, for me, just misses something.
To be fair I might be way off, I didn’t dabble in the dark arts when I was playing.
Hooker we’re fine. George is still excellent while Dann is more than capable.
I disagree on Stuart, I think he's miles short of the quality you need at international level. However we have very few experienced options. Personally I'd have liked to see more of Obano and something of Heyes in this 6N because they're the obvious choices to replace the retirees. I think we'll see Baxter (from Quins) soon as well and then there's a couple of U20 lads who might end up around the squad in the next 18months.
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The two prop positions do worry me.
Cole and Marler, as good as they have been, should be no where near starting.
Genie is hot and cold, Sinkler has disappeared and, whereas, Will Stewart is decent enough but, for me, just misses something.
To be fair I might be way off, I didn’t dabble in the dark arts when I was playing.
Hooker we’re fine. George is still excellent while Dann is more than capable.
I disagree on Stuart, I think he's miles short of the quality you need at international level. However we have very few experienced options. Personally I'd have liked to see more of Obano and something of Heyes in this 6N because they're the obvious choices to replace the retirees. I think we'll see Baxter (from Quins) soon as well and then there's a couple of U20 lads who might end up around the squad in the next 18months.
That’s what I mean, regarding Stuart.
He’s obviously a decent prop, but there’s something missing when he plays internationally.