Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: cdbullyweefan on September 15, 2015, 05:09:15 PM

Title: International Rugby
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 15, 2015, 05:09:15 PM
Worth its own thread I reckon.

Got a £10 e/w bet on France in the unlikely event that Scotland don't storm to victory.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on September 15, 2015, 05:22:36 PM
I can't see the frogs winning it. England are the only Northern Hemisphere side with a shot to my mind. They really need to win the group of death though.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 15, 2015, 07:38:24 PM
Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 15, 2015, 08:06:46 PM
If I were to bet right now I'd go for Australia, they've got pace and quality out wide, a solid front 5 and then the best back row in the tournament which is what will make the difference.  I think whoever tops our group is in the final either way though so we need to hit the ground running and get every point we can.

For England we've only really got Ford as a 'playmaker' in the squad for the first game so we're putting a lot of pressure on him.  JJ and the wingers are superb outside backs who can rip anyone apart given half a yard but I just don't see anyone who will make those gaps consistently, the options at 12 are pathetic in terms of creating play.  My opinion on the back row is clear so I won't go over that again and I think Youngs is a decent option from the bench but he's nothing like good enough at the set piece to be the starting hooker, the decision to throw Hartley to the wolves over a nothing incident looked bad at the time and the 3 summer games have shown it to be fucking idiotic.  I genuinely think Lancaster is going to throw away a great chance of winning the world cup at home because he wanted t pick 'nice guys' rather than the best players.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 15, 2015, 09:16:49 PM
May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.

I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 15, 2015, 09:18:41 PM
What games are people going to?

At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 15, 2015, 09:37:17 PM
May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.

I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.

Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 15, 2015, 09:38:15 PM
I'm going to Wales and Uruguay on Sunday.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: montague on September 15, 2015, 10:25:54 PM
SA v Samoa at VP
Wales v Aus at twickers
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dave Cooper please on September 15, 2015, 11:41:53 PM
Are Brazil in it?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 16, 2015, 12:20:00 AM
twickers

Cringe.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 16, 2015, 08:20:11 AM
twickers

Cringe.

When I was going regularly to England games (back in the late 70s & early 80s) it was referred to as 'HQ'. I don't remember people calling it 'Twickers' back then
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 16, 2015, 09:59:47 AM
May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.

I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.

Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.

I agree on all except Brown, I don't think he's got the brains to be a world class full back.  Watson will be world class though, get him the ball in space and he'll destroy any winger in the world but unlike most wingers he's also got the awareness and hands to make things for other people, unfortunately he's probably still a little inexperienced right now, the 2019 world cup will be his tournament. 


EDITED because I missed putting 2019 so the last bit was all kinds of weird.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on September 16, 2015, 10:25:39 AM
May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.

I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.

Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.

I agree on all except Brown, I don't think he's got the brains to be a world class full back.  Watson will be world class though, get him the ball in space and he'll destroy any winger in the world but unlike most wingers he's also got the awareness and hands to make things for other people, unfortunately he's probably still a little inexperienced right now, the world cup will be his tournament.

I like Mike Brown, but I have to agree, Paul. Oh for Jason Robinson  :D
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 16, 2015, 10:26:51 AM
Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.

Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley.  At least that's what I'm hoping for. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 16, 2015, 11:18:35 AM
May, Joseph and Watson are decent players but there's no world class players in the England team.

I think that they're especially weak at scrum half.

Fit and on form Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Joseph, Brown and potentially Ford are World class.

I agree on all except Brown, I don't think he's got the brains to be a world class full back.  Watson will be world class though, get him the ball in space and he'll destroy any winger in the world but unlike most wingers he's also got the awareness and hands to make things for other people, unfortunately he's probably still a little inexperienced right now, the 2019 world cup will be his tournament. 


EDITED because I missed putting 2019 so the last bit was all kinds of weird.

Yeah good point actually, I forgot about Watson.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 16, 2015, 11:21:11 AM
Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.

Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley.  At least that's what I'm hoping for. 

I don't want Youngs to get a mystery injury, I want that fate to fall on Rob Webber in training so Youngs can be our man off the bench whilst Hartley shows him how a proper hooker throws and scrummages.  Youngs is excellent in open play (as you'd expect for a converted centre) but his line out is terrible and in the scrum him (and Webber) have never learned how to hook so the only option is to try to push the opposition back and let the ball work it's way back naturally.  I'm not blaming them, the failure of referees to clamp down on feeding into the 2nd row has caused this one.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 16, 2015, 02:15:10 PM
Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.

Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley.  At least that's what I'm hoping for. 

I don't want Youngs to get a mystery injury, I want that fate to fall on Rob Webber in training so Youngs can be our man off the bench whilst Hartley shows him how a proper hooker throws and scrummages.  Youngs is excellent in open play (as you'd expect for a converted centre) but his line out is terrible and in the scrum him (and Webber) have never learned how to hook so the only option is to try to push the opposition back and let the ball work it's way back naturally.  I'm not blaming them, the failure of referees to clamp down on feeding into the 2nd row has caused this one.

Yeah agreed, I think Youngs is a good impact player so would be good off the bench.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 16, 2015, 08:26:23 PM
So, 2 days to go before England v Fiji.

Predictions?

I'll go England by 22.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 16, 2015, 09:29:25 PM
I hope would England by a margin, because we need to get the confidence going.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 16, 2015, 10:28:03 PM
So, 2 days to go before England v Fiji.

Predictions?

I'll go England by 22.

I'll go with that, I've got a tenner on England with a 21point handicap.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 16, 2015, 10:28:27 PM
22-15 England
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nordenvillain on September 17, 2015, 12:30:48 AM
Thing is I'm really torn as to whether us being in the 'grpup of death' is a help or a hindrance. I actually think that if we came through the group, and even won it, we'd be full of confidence and battle hardened. I wouldn't give us much chance in another country, with the team at it's current stage of development, but at home you never know. I do think it's critical that Launchbury gets fully fit and thst Youngs finds his line out jumpers.

Youngs won't play past the opener with Fiji before he falls foul of a mystery injury and in comes Hartley.  At least that's what I'm hoping for. 

I don't want Youngs to get a mystery injury, I want that fate to fall on Rob Webber in training so Youngs can be our man off the bench whilst Hartley shows him how a proper hooker throws and scrummages.  Youngs is excellent in open play (as you'd expect for a converted centre) but his line out is terrible and in the scrum him (and Webber) have never learned how to hook so the only option is to try to push the opposition back and let the ball work it's way back naturally.  I'm not blaming them, the failure of referees to clamp down on feeding into the 2nd row has caused this one.

Yeah agreed, I think Youngs is a good impact player so would be good off the bench.
I think that it will be Jamie George that will suffer a worringly serious injury in training to see the return of that nice Dylan Hartley
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nordenvillain on September 17, 2015, 12:34:18 AM
What games are people going to?

At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: JD on September 17, 2015, 09:43:41 AM
What games are people going to?

At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee

You know you can get NZ Citizenship for expressing that kind of love for Dan Carter. Bagging Richie though is a hanging offence though, especially here in Cantab Country where both Dan & Richie ply their trade.   
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 17, 2015, 10:45:57 AM
What games are people going to?

At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee

You know you can get NZ Citizenship for expressing that kind of love for Dan Carter. Bagging Richie though is a hanging offence though, especially here in Cantab Country where both Dan & Richie ply their trade.   

I really don't get the McCaw thing, he's a clear cheat but has spent his entire career getting away with it, it's like there's a massive blindspot for all refs where he's concerned.  Paul O'Connell manages to get into that blindspot regularly as well.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 17, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Maybe its some kind of Jedi mind-trick........"I am not the offside flanker that you are looking for"
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: JD on September 17, 2015, 11:12:33 AM
What games are people going to?

At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm
South Africa v Samoa at VP
New Zealand v Tonga at Sports Direct/St James' Park - A desire to see Dan Carter before he retires and to see Richie McCaw spend at least 78 minutes on the wrong side of the breakdown whilst charming the referee

You know you can get NZ Citizenship for expressing that kind of love for Dan Carter. Bagging Richie though is a hanging offence though, especially here in Cantab Country where both Dan & Richie ply their trade.   

I really don't get the McCaw thing, he's a clear cheat but has spent his entire career getting away with it, it's like there's a massive blindspot for all refs where he's concerned.  Paul O'Connell manages to get into that blindspot regularly as well.

I agree. Funny thing is when he plays for the AB's all of NZ get behind him, but when he plays for Canterbury the rest of NZ hate him and complain that he cheats. That tells you all you need to know.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on September 17, 2015, 11:16:26 AM
What games are people going to?

At the moment I'm just doing USA v Japan at Kingsholm

I'm going to England v Wales, which is nice, but that's all I got in the ballot.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Lsvilla on September 17, 2015, 11:27:36 AM
My brother in law works for the RFU as Referees Development Coach and is holed up in The Landmark for the next 8 weeks looking after the officials that are all staying there (he is an ex-premiership referee himself)...............I've not seen a sniff of a ticket for anything - not that bothered tbh, can take or leave the game, but a freeby to the final would have been nice.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 17, 2015, 10:09:01 PM
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: spangley1812 on September 17, 2015, 10:19:29 PM
I technically am attending both games @ VP as I am one of the volunteers for the whole tournament, not sure how much rugby I will get chance to see
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 09:51:35 AM


See every ref in world rugby should be made to watch that repeatedly (you could make a similar video of Ireland as well and the welsh at times, both teams with a heavy NZ presence in their coaching over the last 10-15 years) the all blacks have, for years, been allowed to cheat at will.  The o'driscoll spear tackle by any other nation would've seen 2 red cards and 4-8 week bans each for Collins and Nonu, because they were wearing black they didn't even get a sin-binning and then Collins got a subsequent 1 week ban at the citing commission.  It's pathetic and harms the game, thankfully the rules around the breakdown are difficult enough that only a player or big fan will really notice, to most people the ABs just look like they're better than most other teams at getting the ball out quickly.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 18, 2015, 12:19:41 PM
Wales resting a lot of key players against Uruguay, I hope that backfires on them. I appreciate it's unlikely to impact the result, but I hope those players aren't match sharp when they play us.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: glasses on September 18, 2015, 12:23:22 PM
How do people think Ireland will get on in the tournament?

Just a general query as they seem to do well in the six nations and look to have a relatively easy group.

I say this as someone who knows feck all about Rugby, mind
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 18, 2015, 12:56:23 PM
How do people think Ireland will get on in the tournament?

Just a general query as they seem to do well in the six nations and look to have a relatively easy group.

I say this as someone who knows feck all about Rugby, mind
As you say a relatively easy group, Ranked 2 in the world?  I think not, they'll be found out this tournament.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 18, 2015, 02:11:51 PM
I think Ireland will do ok, but I expect their run to end in the quarters or the semis.

I'm already properly nervous about tonight, and it's a game against Fiji, fuck knows what I'll be like when we play Wales and Australia.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 04:16:42 PM
Ireland will get out of their group but I wouldn't bet on it being in first place, which would mean a QF against the all blacks.  The Ireland vs France game is going to be the only game outside Pool A that's got real consequences and could genuinely go either way (except maybe Scotland vs Samoa).

Not sure where Jon is getting his ranking from, they're 6th, which is much closer to reality, they were second a couple of years ago but they've been dropping for a while.  A good aussie performance in the championship has changed things a little in the official rankings but for me there's an eyelash between England, Australia and SA in 2-4 and then a similarly close battle between Ireland, Wales and France for 5-7.  After that the rankings get unreliable because argetina, italy and, to an extent scotland are whipping boys in their regular international tournament so it'as hard to judge them agianst each other or against sides like Tonga, Samoa or Fiji.

All the other games that I wouldn't want to call are amongst the sides that you don't really expect to see qualify, Tonga vs Georgia tomorrow for example could be a superb game, I suspect Tonga will be too strong, but Georgia are a better side than they're given credit for and probably aren't far off questioning why Italy get a 6N place ahead of them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: four fornicholl on September 18, 2015, 04:29:43 PM
just a quickie but what are the reasons were hosting
couple of rugby games?
does it really do the hallowed turf any good
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on September 18, 2015, 04:32:41 PM
Have Sky got their greasy paws all over this ? It don't appear to be on BBC tonite ?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dave Cooper please on September 18, 2015, 04:45:02 PM
Have Sky got their greasy paws all over this ? It don't appear to be on BBC tonite ?

It's on ITV.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on September 18, 2015, 05:08:06 PM
Have Sky got their greasy paws all over this ? It don't appear to be on BBC tonite ?

It's on ITV.
Nice
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 18, 2015, 05:52:54 PM
Ireland will get out of their group but I wouldn't bet on it being in first place, which would mean a QF against the all blacks.  The Ireland vs France game is going to be the only game outside Pool A that's got real consequences and could genuinely go either way (except maybe Scotland vs Samoa).

Not sure where Jon is getting his ranking from, they're 6th, which is much closer to reality, they were second a couple of years ago but they've been dropping for a while.  A good aussie performance in the championship has changed things a little in the official rankings but for me there's an eyelash between England, Australia and SA in 2-4 and then a similarly close battle between Ireland, Wales and France for 5-7.  After that the rankings get unreliable because argetina, italy and, to an extent scotland are whipping boys in their regular international tournament so it'as hard to judge them agianst each other or against sides like Tonga, Samoa or Fiji.

All the other games that I wouldn't want to call are amongst the sides that you don't really expect to see qualify, Tonga vs Georgia tomorrow for example could be a superb game, I suspect Tonga will be too strong, but Georgia are a better side than they're given credit for and probably aren't far off questioning why Italy get a 6N place ahead of them.

But aren't Georgia just an updated version of Romania? The Italians have shown some consistency and improvement whereas Georgia are likely to come and go, as did the Romanians. of course it could be argues that the extra revenue from playing 6 Nations rugby would enable them to reinvest in grass roots rugby ensuring a deeper legacy.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 08:18:45 PM
Ireland will get out of their group but I wouldn't bet on it being in first place, which would mean a QF against the all blacks.  The Ireland vs France game is going to be the only game outside Pool A that's got real consequences and could genuinely go either way (except maybe Scotland vs Samoa).

Not sure where Jon is getting his ranking from, they're 6th, which is much closer to reality, they were second a couple of years ago but they've been dropping for a while.  A good aussie performance in the championship has changed things a little in the official rankings but for me there's an eyelash between England, Australia and SA in 2-4 and then a similarly close battle between Ireland, Wales and France for 5-7.  After that the rankings get unreliable because argetina, italy and, to an extent scotland are whipping boys in their regular international tournament so it'as hard to judge them agianst each other or against sides like Tonga, Samoa or Fiji.

All the other games that I wouldn't want to call are amongst the sides that you don't really expect to see qualify, Tonga vs Georgia tomorrow for example could be a superb game, I suspect Tonga will be too strong, but Georgia are a better side than they're given credit for and probably aren't far off questioning why Italy get a 6N place ahead of them.

But aren't Georgia just an updated version of Romania? The Italians have shown some consistency and improvement whereas Georgia are likely to come and go, as did the Romanians. of course it could be argues that the extra revenue from playing 6 Nations rugby would enable them to reinvest in grass roots rugby ensuring a deeper legacy.

Georgia have been 7th in Europe for about 10-12 years so, like Italy before them, they've started to outclass everyone else.

That said I'd pull in Romania as well and go to 2 groups of 4 then have semis and finals to play off for 1st to 8th.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 08:20:11 PM
Decent start, Seeing Fiji try to overpower england with first phase crash ball is odd.  We're already kicking the ball too much for my liking.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 08:30:10 PM
Brilliant reading of the game from Tom Wood, that's why he's a world class player.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 18, 2015, 08:44:36 PM
Gone a bit scrappy in the last few minutes.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 08:50:50 PM
Very poor performance so far
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on September 18, 2015, 08:57:59 PM
We will be fine second half. Open and knock in some points.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 08:58:54 PM
Very poor performance so far

I don't agree, we went silly after the knock on disallowed try, and the kicked penalty was a mistake in that context, but we fully deserve the double figure lead at half time.

However we are making the same mistake we always do which is to kick away first phase possession, Brown has done it 3 times and all 3 have been terrible kicks.  I can live with it as a set move for the opposite winger but trying to chip the defence in first phase is braindead.  I said yesterday Brown doesn't have the intelligence to be world class, he's done a great job of showing what I meant today.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on September 18, 2015, 09:05:23 PM
Kit is awful
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:05:28 PM
Very poor performance so far

I don't agree, we went silly after the knock on disallowed try, and the kicked penalty was a mistake in that context, but we fully deserve the double figure lead at half time.

However we are making the same mistake we always do which is to kick away first phase possession, Brown has done it 3 times and all 3 have been terrible kicks.  I can live with it as a set move for the opposite winger but trying to chip the defence in first phase is braindead.  I said yesterday Brown doesn't have the intelligence to be world class, he's done a great job of showing what I meant today.

I think it has been poor. Numerous handling errors, scrum looking shaky, lineout not great. Thankfully Fiji are extremely ill disciplined so we've got away with it so far.

Also it is extremely annoying having to watch Barritt haul himself around at a level of rugby he should not be playing in
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 18, 2015, 09:08:55 PM
That shot of the team dressing room:  Is it normal that the manager is not leading the team talk?  Was it Robshaw or another coach?
Weirdly it was always our captain that shouted our motivational speeches but I assumed that was just because he was good at it rather than a rigby 'thing'.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 09:14:27 PM
Very poor performance so far

I don't agree, we went silly after the knock on disallowed try, and the kicked penalty was a mistake in that context, but we fully deserve the double figure lead at half time.

However we are making the same mistake we always do which is to kick away first phase possession, Brown has done it 3 times and all 3 have been terrible kicks.  I can live with it as a set move for the opposite winger but trying to chip the defence in first phase is braindead.  I said yesterday Brown doesn't have the intelligence to be world class, he's done a great job of showing what I meant today.

I think it has been poor. Numerous handling errors, scrum looking shaky, lineout not great. Thankfully Fiji are extremely ill disciplined so we've got away with it so far.

Also it is extremely annoying having to watch Barritt haul himself around at a level of rugby he should not be playing in

remember it started to rain right on kick off, so handling errors are no surprise.  Scrum has been ok other than Youngs refusing to Hook.  Lineout has been fine other than the first one.

I agree about Barritt, he's a terrible player who shouldn't be anywhere near this side, he's a decent defender but he can't pass, doesn't run good crash ball and has a bad habit of giving away penalties when he tries to force the game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:18:56 PM
We really do need the full 5 points from this game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:21:15 PM
Oh for fuck sake. Why would Wood do that? Fucking braindead
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:24:49 PM
They really do need to do something about the amount of time lost at scrums.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 09:26:45 PM
Oh for fuck sake. Why would Wood do that? Fucking braindead

To be fair to him you don't get called up for that until a month ago, and given we were already playing advantage it was a poor decision to reverse it.

I wish Tom Youngs would, once, try to hook the fucking ball.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:33:48 PM
Fiji have missed quite a few kicks. Thankfully
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:35:33 PM
Very worrying that for spells in this game, Fiji have looked the better team. We'll need a drastic improvement even to just beat Wales
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: john e on September 18, 2015, 09:37:24 PM
I'm the first to admit I don't know much about Rugby,
But I can tell one thing, this England team is not winning the World Cup
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 09:38:46 PM
Oh look we bring on loads of sarries players and suddenly we're playing the same shit that Sarries do.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:41:28 PM
I'm the first to admit I don't know much about Rugby,
But I can tell one thing, this England team is not winning the World Cup

We'll do well to get out of the group on this evidence
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 09:47:49 PM
I'm the first to admit I don't know much about Rugby,
But I can tell one thing, this England team is not winning the World Cup

We'll do well to get out of the group on this evidence

That was true the moment Burrell, Cipriani and Kvesic were sent home, left us with no impact at inside centre, no spark of brilliance at 10 or 15 and no one willing to get in the thick of it and be a bastard on the floor.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: john e on September 18, 2015, 09:48:37 PM
Some of those Fiji players are absolutely enormous
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 09:51:38 PM
Some of those Fiji players are absolutely enormous

which is why we're looking good now, they're fucked.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: john e on September 18, 2015, 09:55:20 PM
Some of those Fiji players are absolutely enormous

which is why we're looking good now, they're fucked.

We have picked it up a bit late on
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Exeter 77 on September 18, 2015, 09:57:30 PM
Far too many turnovers and handling errors but that last gasp try will ultimately help in the pool placings.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 18, 2015, 09:59:47 PM
Well, that was uninspiring. Hopefully it was just first night nerves, because we were flattered by the scoreline, and we'll struggle to beat Wales or Australia with that level of performance.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 10:01:20 PM
good first 20, shit 45 in the middle and then fitness got us over the line.  Loads of work to do, injuries to Barritt and a hooker in training would be a blessing but it's 5 points against a decent side in the opening game which is often a tricky one for the hosts so I guess job done.

We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 18, 2015, 10:13:38 PM
Far too many turnovers and handling errors but that last gasp try will ultimately help in the pool placings.

I'm not fussed about the handling errors, the light rain meant it looked like a good pitch but the ball was a bar of soap.  The turnovers is a massive problem (both the number we concede and the lack of 'wins'), the 2 key players at the breakdown at 7 and your enforcer in the centres.  Whichever of the 2 is nearest should be closing the ball off by getting low and over the top of it as quickly as possible, neither Robshaw or Barritt is able to do that job so we give teams a chance far too often and we don't legally slow their play.  Not only does itlose it ball and stop us winning ball back but it's also at the heart of our indiscipline around halfway, if there's any gaps our only option is to try to kill the ball, refs know it so they watch for it and punish us for everything which puts us on the backfoot as soon as teams start attacking us.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on September 18, 2015, 10:25:41 PM
Flat as a pancake .
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 18, 2015, 10:26:03 PM
We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.

Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot.  And Brian Ashton.  And Johnno.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Exeter 77 on September 18, 2015, 10:26:14 PM
Far too many turnovers and handling errors but that last gasp try will ultimately help in the pool placings.

I'm not fussed about the handling errors, the light rain meant it looked like a good pitch but the ball was a bar of soap.  The turnovers is a massive problem (both the number we concede and the lack of 'wins'), the 2 key players at the breakdown at 7 and your enforcer in the centres.  Whichever of the 2 is nearest should be closing the ball off by getting low and over the top of it as quickly as possible, neither Robshaw or Barritt is able to do that job so we give teams a chance far too often and we don't legally slow their play.  Not only does itlose it ball and stop us winning ball back but it's also at the heart of our indiscipline around halfway, if there's any gaps our only option is to try to kill the ball, refs know it so they watch for it and punish us for everything which puts us on the backfoot as soon as teams start attacking us.
You're right about refs waiting for us to kill the ball and England concede far too many penalties in crucial areas. The number of scrums lost was also a bit worrying. I think though that Fiji will cause Wales, and maybe Australia, a few problems with the size and pace of some of their backs.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on September 18, 2015, 10:28:51 PM
The breakdown was a mess. If Fiji can turn us over like that, Wales and the Aussies will have a field day.

Must do better.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: KRS on September 18, 2015, 10:33:51 PM
I just don't get rugby. Bores the shit out of me.

For all the hype...England looked a bit crap.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 18, 2015, 11:19:25 PM
Its very easy to be critical but it was just the first game. It takes time to build into a tournament and with one or two notable exceptions the best teams aren't the ones that get into their stride in the first game or two but build their momentum. I think the scrum is definitely an area of concern though and I agree a hooker seems to be an urgent requirement. Nice to see the lineout functioning better but they really did seem to get a free pass in this one.

But I think we are a bit remiss in not giving the Fijians a bit more credit. They were excellent in defence  and disrupted at the breakdown more than once. As paul e said a page or 2 back only those that know the game can truly spot the infringements and I must admit I was calling penalties left right and centre but nothing was mentioned so guess they must have done their job excellently well. Also, this was their World Cup Final. At Twickenham, Friday night, bodies not aching battered or bruised, and no pressure. They threw everything at it and it was always going to be tough. they probably won't have the same intensity against the Welsh or Australia but the important thing is that we walked away with 5 points.

A nod also in teh direction of Sam Burgess. the South Sea Islanders tend to play a rugby league type of game. Accept the tackle but always look for the hand off. Conservative rugby from the fitter Union players of the North is usually enough to beat them but Sam Burgess was an excellent antidote. Excellent carrying, line running, and offloading.

All in all job done.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 12:01:47 AM
We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.

Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot.  And Brian Ashton.  And Johnno.

The one in bold was the mistake.  We should have given him the 4years from 07 to 11 to build a solid base around the younger players, instead we had Johnno trying to learn how to be a coach at the highest level and being found out it was always a bizarre appointment.  We've made largely the same mistake with Lancaster, a couple of years at Leeds and a year running the Saxons is nothing like enough experience to be a national team head coach. He got the job temporarily because when they booted Johnno the season had started and they needed someone for the 6N so rather than upset a club side they used the saxons coach.  How foten does a caretaker turn out to be a good appointment when they're made permanent in any sport?

The biggest problem England have though is that we've got a nice guy as the coach and another nice guy as the captain so as a team we're too nice, we're loyal to players who don't really deserve it, we're harshly critical of players who ruffle feathers and we doi a fucking terrible job of sticking up for ourselves.  I want a nasty bastard or 2 in squad, you really need them in rugby, it's why player like BOD and McCaw are so good, they have skills but they also don't take shit and they're willing to get dirty.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 19, 2015, 12:15:13 AM
Pretty poor and scrappy, but I'm hoping that's down the occasion. One defensive lapse aside Burgess was brilliant when he came on. He gave us impetus moving forward along with Billy V. I thought Farrell did well as well. We'll obviously have to be a lot better, but Australia and particularly Wales won't enjoy playing Fiji.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 19, 2015, 12:16:33 AM
Burgess has put serious questions on Barritt's place.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 19, 2015, 12:19:39 AM
Oh look we bring on loads of sarries players and suddenly we're playing the same shit that Sarries do.

To be honest I thought they all had a positive impact on the game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 19, 2015, 12:22:31 AM
The main things to improve upon are intensity, control of the breakdown and discipline. You can't give away 11 turnovers and penalties.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 09:50:01 AM
Oh look we bring on loads of sarries players and suddenly we're playing the same shit that Sarries do.

To be honest I thought they all had a positive impact on the game.

When I wrote that we were looking pretty cynical. Burgess came on just after and gave us some drive in midfield which got launchbury and Billy v to start driving on from the pack which changed the game. It was 9, 10 and 12 from a side that uses backs sparingly that frustrated me.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 19, 2015, 09:57:48 AM
We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.

Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot.  And Brian Ashton.  And Johnno.

The one in bold was the mistake.  We should have given him the 4years from 07 to 11 to build a solid base around the younger players, instead we had Johnno trying to learn how to be a coach at the highest level and being found out it was always a bizarre appointment.  We've made largely the same mistake with Lancaster, a couple of years at Leeds and a year running the Saxons is nothing like enough experience to be a national team head coach. He got the job temporarily because when they booted Johnno the season had started and they needed someone for the 6N so rather than upset a club side they used the saxons coach.  How foten does a caretaker turn out to be a good appointment when they're made permanent in any sport?

The biggest problem England have though is that we've got a nice guy as the coach and another nice guy as the captain so as a team we're too nice, we're loyal to players who don't really deserve it, we're harshly critical of players who ruffle feathers and we doi a fucking terrible job of sticking up for ourselves.  I want a nasty bastard or 2 in squad, you really need them in rugby, it's why player like BOD and McCaw are so good, they have skills but they also don't take shit and they're willing to get dirty.

Was Brian Ashton the one who, to use a cliche, "lost the dressing" room during the World Cup in France?  Where the players ignored his tactics and chose to play stick it up yer jumper rugby for the rest of the tournament?  My memory is a bit hazy.

Anyway, what irks me about all of them is that occasionally we get performances that look like we're finally on the right track, like Cardiff in this year's 6N, but then things just end up going sour again.   Regression to the mean?  Maybe England just produces limited players - perhaps not limited in terms of raw talent, but certainly lacking smarts and "footballing brains".
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 19, 2015, 10:00:01 AM
Yeah I understand that. Burgess and Billy had a massive impact which was really encouraging and that's the first time I've seen Burgess offer something as an attacking centre. I actually thought Farrell did well and his offload to brown was outstanding.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 01:05:42 PM
We won't win the world cup, I'm certain of that, but if we get out of the group I'll be happy because it won't be a devastating shame but will probably be enough to see Lancaster get the boot which I see as necessary for us to be the team we can be for the '19 world cup where we should be clear favourites.

Which is what we thought when Robinson got the boot.  And Brian Ashton.  And Johnno.

The one in bold was the mistake.  We should have given him the 4years from 07 to 11 to build a solid base around the younger players, instead we had Johnno trying to learn how to be a coach at the highest level and being found out it was always a bizarre appointment.  We've made largely the same mistake with Lancaster, a couple of years at Leeds and a year running the Saxons is nothing like enough experience to be a national team head coach. He got the job temporarily because when they booted Johnno the season had started and they needed someone for the 6N so rather than upset a club side they used the saxons coach.  How foten does a caretaker turn out to be a good appointment when they're made permanent in any sport?

The biggest problem England have though is that we've got a nice guy as the coach and another nice guy as the captain so as a team we're too nice, we're loyal to players who don't really deserve it, we're harshly critical of players who ruffle feathers and we doi a fucking terrible job of sticking up for ourselves.  I want a nasty bastard or 2 in squad, you really need them in rugby, it's why player like BOD and McCaw are so good, they have skills but they also don't take shit and they're willing to get dirty.

Was Brian Ashton the one who, to use a cliche, "lost the dressing" room during the World Cup in France?  Where the players ignored his tactics and chose to play stick it up yer jumper rugby for the rest of the tournament?  My memory is a bit hazy.

Anyway, what irks me about all of them is that occasionally we get performances that look like we're finally on the right track, like Cardiff in this year's 6N, but then things just end up going sour again.   Regression to the mean?  Maybe England just produces limited players - perhaps not limited in terms of raw talent, but certainly lacking smarts and "footballing brains".

Yeah, all the older players who were having a last tournament before they retired didn't want to play his way.  The issue is he set up the academy system that all the current players came through under (whilst working with Woodward) and was perfectly suited to the massive rebuild job that was needed after 2007.  By dumping him and bringing in Johnno they lost that connection to the 19-22 year olds and we ended up picking some absolute shite (Jaime fucking Noon) over the next 4 years and turning up at the world cup totally unprepared.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 01:07:16 PM
Georgia vs Tonga is just as close as I expected, should have been 10-10 at half time but for an incredibly harsh disallowed try for Tonga.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on September 19, 2015, 01:10:35 PM
I didn't realise Fiji are ranked 9th in the world these days. They're not the push overs at 15 a side these days.
Still, 11 turnovers is pretty unacceptable.
I'm putting this one down to opening the World Cup nerves.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 19, 2015, 01:32:20 PM
Georgia vs Tonga is just as close as I expected, should have been 10-10 at half time but for an incredibly harsh disallowed try for Tonga.

I was hoping to watch this whilst I'm sat in the car park waiting for the Villa game.

However ITVPlayer isn't showing the game
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 19, 2015, 01:39:50 PM
Yes it is. Click on ITV then click Watch Live.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 19, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
Well done Georgia!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 02:07:08 PM
Really enjoyed that, so good to see the improvement in Georgia, as I said they're closing the gap on Italy massively.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 19, 2015, 05:38:35 PM
Japan are having a right good go at SA unlucky to be going in 2 behind.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 19, 2015, 05:47:20 PM
Japan look a pretty handy side.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 19, 2015, 06:25:37 PM
Come on Japan!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 19, 2015, 06:41:15 PM
This is awesome!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 19, 2015, 06:44:07 PM
YEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 19, 2015, 06:46:46 PM
Amazing.  The reaction of the Georgian and Japanese players alone has already made this tournament a great spectacle.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 19, 2015, 06:46:46 PM
Thank you Japan for making my day and making forget about the shite Villa served up.  Bravo!!!!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: dave shelley on September 19, 2015, 06:47:30 PM
Fantastic stuff.  Real guts there.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 06:48:12 PM
Best upset ever in rugby history, and 100% deserved, that pool is interesting now and means finishing 1st in our pool might not be such a huge advantage as it looked.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 19, 2015, 06:52:16 PM
What a game from minute 1. Japan were immense.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: tomd2103 on September 19, 2015, 06:54:51 PM
Seriously down in the dumps when I got home after our game but watching that Japanese performance was a massive lift.  Really, really special stuff.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 19, 2015, 06:57:30 PM
Seriously down in the dumps when I got home after our game but watching that Japanese performance was a massive lift.  Really, really special stuff.

Absolutely, and I'm not even much of a rugby fan!

I would be if it was always that exciting!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 19, 2015, 07:34:36 PM
Seriously down in the dumps when I got home after our game but watching that Japanese performance was a massive lift.  Really, really special stuff.

Absolutely, and I'm not even much of a rugby fan!

I would be if it was always that exciting!

Personally I find that rugby rarely falls to the depths that football can, maybe because there is always the physically to enjoy.  Equally these sort of upsets in rugby seem much less common so the sort rarely reaches the heights that football can.


Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 19, 2015, 07:57:13 PM
Watched the last ten minutes of Japan v SA when I got home. Incredible victory
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 19, 2015, 08:03:35 PM
And after that epic encounter, the rugby is pushed aside to ITV4 so that ITV can show some crappy talent show
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 19, 2015, 08:10:32 PM
And after that epic encounter, the rugby is pushed aside to ITV4 so that ITV can show some crappy talent show

I bet there's plenty of schedulers who are thinking that right now, if ever you needed an advert for the world cup it was one of the favourites getting beaten in the opening weekend to a rank outsider.  With Georgis being rated well below Tonga that's 2 upset out of 4 so far, and Fiji had a good go at us as well, it's briliant for the tournament.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 19, 2015, 09:43:17 PM
There will be a fellow Forester on the pitch at Villa Park next weekend. Wayne Barnes is the ref for the SA v Samoa game
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Exeter 77 on September 19, 2015, 10:01:11 PM
After sitting through the dirge of this afternoon at Villa Park seeing the end of SA v Japan made me feel a lot better about being a sports fan.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 20, 2015, 09:01:14 AM
Off to Cardiff now. Come on Uruguay!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 20, 2015, 01:41:48 PM
And after that epic encounter, the rugby is pushed aside to ITV4 so that ITV can show some crappy talent show

I bet there's plenty of schedulers who are thinking that right now, if ever you needed an advert for the world cup it was one of the favourites getting beaten in the opening weekend to a rank outsider.  With Georgis being rated well below Tonga that's 2 upset out of 4 so far, and Fiji had a good go at us as well, it's briliant for the tournament.

But it needs to me maintained. Obviously it is still massively odds on that all of the big boys get through to the last 8 but the tournament, and Rugby Union as a world game can do without the kind of tonkings previously reserved for the likes of Japan.

As for Japan I couldn't get over to the missus just how big a surprise result it was and couldn't equate it properly to football. I caught the last 25 minutes on ITV+1 and saw Japan pull level at 22-22 before South Africa scored a try. I turned over at that point because I didn't want to see SA win. The 6 year-old was messing around with his dinner in a non-eating tip so I turned which ever cartoon channel he was watching (yeah, save the parental advice...)back to the rugby. The last 10-15 minutes or so saw Chez Winters engrossed in it. The last 5 minutes when Japan decided to go for it had us glued to the screen and as the fella went over in the corner the missus who cannot stand sport of any description was jumping up and down, the 6 year-old was running around, I gave it the fist pump, and the two-year-old took advantage of the mayhem to jump up and down thinking it was a precursor to fighting monsters (his current favourite game).

All in all from a depressed state of affairs due to fucking Villa RWC 2015 gave us a bizarre but brilliant family moment. I hope the rest of ther World Cup can live up to it. A passing nod to Georgia v Tonga at this point which seemed like a decent game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 20, 2015, 02:54:31 PM
It was absolutely outstanding. The whole pub seemed to turn Japanese in that last 10 minutes. The roar when they scored the last try was probably as big as it would be if England actually won the thing
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 20, 2015, 05:29:50 PM
NZ v Argentina really entertaining so far. It's been a cracking WC so far
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 20, 2015, 05:33:13 PM
2 yellow cards for NZ so far, including one for cheating bastard Richie McCaw.

Hopefully this is a sign that referees won't let them get away with murder like they usually do
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 20, 2015, 05:38:11 PM
Has that gobshite cheat finally been sussed out?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 20, 2015, 05:41:24 PM
Has that gobshite cheat finally been sussed out?

I hope so. He's a great player, but has gotten away with plenty during his career. Today's one was so cynical
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 20, 2015, 05:46:12 PM
Has that gobshite cheat finally been sussed out?

Only if the ref secretly logs on to here.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 20, 2015, 05:50:58 PM
2 yellow cards for NZ so far, including one for cheating bastard Richie McCaw.

Hopefully this is a sign that referees won't let them get away with murder like they usually do

The Harlem Globetrotters won't like that. Officials and opponents alike are supposed to stand aside and marvel and applaud as the guardians of world rugby march on to glory.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 20, 2015, 06:02:34 PM
Even with 2 yellows you can still count the breakdown infringements in every play, it's institutionalised cheating that's completely inseparable from the good elements of their game. I'd love to see the refs go all out in pinging them but we'd see games with 11 or 12 players on one side if they did.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 20, 2015, 06:16:40 PM
There you go, NZ get into the lead with a try that no one questions even though McCaw is on the wrong side right in the path of the defender who would've filled the gap that Smith ran through, pathetic from the ref and the commentators.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 20, 2015, 06:26:15 PM
Even with 2 yellows you can still count the breakdown infringements in every play, it's institutionalised cheating that's completely inseparable from the good elements of their game. I'd love to see the refs go all out in pinging them but we'd see games with 11 or 12 players on one side if they did.

Not just the breakdown - they actually got pinged for a forward pass this match.  I thought the ABs has special dispensation to pass the ball forwards?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 20, 2015, 06:39:06 PM
I find myself getting really angry watching this, take away the cheating and I genuinely don't think they're all that. If you're allowed to come in from the side stand in the way of cover defenders it's easy to get quick ball and find gaps.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Stu on September 20, 2015, 07:21:48 PM
Haven't NZ got a few nice, sedate games against proper nations like Tonga, Georgia, and Namibia before they get to the business end of the tournament?

Well played, NZ, well played.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 21, 2015, 09:44:00 AM
Wales might be in a spot of bother with their injuries at prop.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 21, 2015, 10:34:48 AM
Wales might be in a spot of bother with their injuries at prop.

Harsh as it sounds I hope so, Saturday definitely looks like a good day to play them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 21, 2015, 11:17:43 AM
Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Duncan Shaw on September 21, 2015, 11:20:23 AM
I had a great weekend, went to Twickenham Friday, Brighton Saturday and Wembley yesterday.
The worst atmosphere and experience was Wembley yetserday - huge crowd, the Argies treid to get the atmosphere going but NZ really are boring tema, boring crowd.  the Man U of rugby as well, so many glory hunter in black.  And then the obligatory hour to get out of the ground and to the tube. 

Friday was good, Twickenham was really bouncing which you can't say very often.  They did a good job of warming the crowd up before they started broadcasting the opening ceremony and depsite England stuttering somewhat, the crowd stayed buoyant throughout.  We had French singing La Marseillaise, Argies singing and bouncing and everyone not English supporting Fiji, which is how it should be!! 

Saturday though, what a day.  Beers on the beach, shuttlke to the ground and then that performance from Japan, wow.  I reckon we celebrated the last try as much as if England had won the WC. 

the best thing about the whole weekend though has been the overall atmosphere - chatting to overseas visitors, hugging every Japanese person in sight, debating the games and predictions with Aussies, Kiwis, Welsh, Irish all while drinking an awful lot of beer.  No trouble, everyone waiting patiently in queues where necessary and just an all round good time.  i do wish Football could be like that.

I'm at VP Sunday and am interested to see what the atmosphere is like, because it's not really a hotbed area for rugby is it!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 21, 2015, 11:36:58 AM
Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?

I don't think that's allowed.  They can call up replacements but we'll be looking at 4th or 5th choice props on the bench and the likes of Marler and Cole will just dismantle them.

Duncan - your experience is why I love rugby, even with huge rivals it's always friendly. the fans are just so much better behaved than in football.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 21, 2015, 11:45:14 AM
Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?

I don't think that's allowed.  They can call up replacements but we'll be looking at 4th or 5th choice props on the bench and the likes of Marler and Cole will just dismantle them.

Duncan - your experience is why I love rugby, even with huge rivals it's always friendly. the fans are just so much better behaved than in football.

I'm sure it's not, I was just fooling.

Great story I heard coming out of Brighton Saturday, at the railway station the SA fans formed a guard of honour for the Japan fans and allowed them all to board trains before them.  How about that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dave Cooper please on September 21, 2015, 12:10:15 PM
The whole pub seemed to turn Japanese in that last 10 minutes.

Isn't that a euphemism for wanking?
Interesting choice of pub!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Duncan Shaw on September 21, 2015, 12:25:40 PM
The whole pub seemed to turn Japanese in that last 10 minutes.

Isn't that a euphemism for wanking?
Interesting choice of pub!

Ha ha, we were all singin it in the stands at the end, and I explained to my 15 yr old lad the percieved meaning of the song and he thought it was hilarious!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Duncan Shaw on September 21, 2015, 12:27:09 PM
Uncontesetd scrum from the get go?

I don't think that's allowed.  They can call up replacements but we'll be looking at 4th or 5th choice props on the bench and the likes of Marler and Cole will just dismantle them.

Duncan - your experience is why I love rugby, even with huge rivals it's always friendly. the fans are just so much better behaved than in football.

I'm sure it's not, I was just fooling.

Great story I heard coming out of Brighton Saturday, at the railway station the SA fans formed a guard of honour for the Japan fans and allowed them all to board trains before them.  How about that.


They were and there was lots of hugging going on.  It was just incredible really.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 21, 2015, 12:44:34 PM
Really enjoyed going to the Millenium yesterday and then going to the fan park for the NZ game. Great atmosphere all round.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 21, 2015, 01:04:24 PM
Anyone been to the fan park at Millenium Point?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 21, 2015, 01:27:07 PM
Anyone been to the fan park at Millenium Point?

Yeah we went yesterday, was ok but a bit quiet when we were there (watched the first half of the wales game).  Was ok though and seemed a decent atmosphere given it was quiet and it wasn't the nicest of days.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on September 21, 2015, 07:19:46 PM
Japan v the Sweaties has suddenly become very interesting after the weekend result.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 21, 2015, 07:24:55 PM
Japan v the Sweaties has suddenly become very interesting after the weekend result.

That's the problem with the scheduling. The perceived "minnows" have only a few days rest between matches rather than a full week off.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 21, 2015, 07:43:54 PM
Scotland are well rested, they haven't played any rugby for years.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 22, 2015, 03:32:35 PM
If JJ is out that would be a real blow. If he is I hope they bring in Slade rather than going for Barritt and Farrell.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 22, 2015, 04:30:30 PM
Japan v the Sweaties has suddenly become very interesting after the weekend result.

Shame that this is an afternoon KO, meaning that I can't watch live.

I'm planning on timing my drive home tomorrow so that I hit the Glawster northern bypass just before the end of the game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 22, 2015, 04:58:10 PM
Record it or watch on +1?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on September 22, 2015, 11:03:23 PM
BBC commentators are speculating that Lancaster is dropping Ford completely and playing Farrell, Burgess and Barritt.
That's pretty much Paul_e's dream team I think.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 23, 2015, 08:12:04 AM
If that's true it's ridiculous. Farrell had a good impact, but to drop Ford after one game is ridiculously harsh. Also starting Burgess is a massive gamble.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 23, 2015, 08:58:59 AM
It also suggests a shift in our game plan. I don't think trying to front up to Wales physically is a particularly good idea, since that's essentially what their game plan is all about.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 23, 2015, 09:48:53 AM
Yep, this is him being scared of Wales rather than trying to play our own game.  We couldn't have sent a clearer signal that we're playing for penalties.  As I've said before the sooner Lancaster leaves the better, even if this works and we win comfortably I don't want to see a national team with the players and resources to play an expansive game resort to 2 crash centres and a boot on a stick.  May and Watson might as well be dropped and replaced by 2 defensive wingers because they're going to get nothing but shit possession where they stand no chance of doing any damage.  We need to get rid of Farrell senior as well, he's doing everything he can to turn our backs into a league side and is being allowed to do it.  On top of that once he fucks off there's a chance that his son won't be an automatic selection in the squad.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on September 23, 2015, 10:09:18 AM
Farrell, Barritt, Burgess at 10, 12, 13 is like going back to the dark days of Andy Goode, Jamie Noon & Stuart Abbott - kick kick bang bang. So predictable, so easy to defend. Are we *that* scared of Jamie Roberts ?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on September 23, 2015, 10:10:15 AM
Ah, I see paul_e beat me to it !
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 23, 2015, 10:19:52 AM
It's pathetic, that's the midfield line up I'd expect to see from someone like Georgia who are just trying to ruffle a few feathers and sneak a win or 2 in the group, not from a side that genuinely has a hope of winning the tournament.

As I said earlier in the thread, I'd take us going out in the QF now, not embarrassing but bad enough to see the coaches and manager off.  I hate the fact that we're in the middle of a rugby world cup in England and I'm enjoying it more as a neutral than I am as an England fan.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 23, 2015, 11:53:03 AM
My biggest problem isn't around the style of play, although that is an issue. It's that it completely flies in the face of what has been preached for the last few years about consistency. Ford didn't have the best game on Friday, but it was far from awful. He doesn't deserve to be dropped at all.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 23, 2015, 04:04:33 PM
My biggest problem isn't around the style of play, although that is an issue. It's that it completely flies in the face of what has been preached for the last few years about consistency. Ford didn't have the best game on Friday, but it was far from awful. He doesn't deserve to be dropped at all.

Consistency of selection only applies if you're one his favourites, Wood, Lawes and Launchbury have all been given similar treatment.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 23, 2015, 06:59:36 PM
I do think Lancaster has panicked and tried to front up to Wales rather than out play them. Let's hope it's not a fatal mistake.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 24, 2015, 10:28:20 AM
So Ford has been dropped for Farrell, let's hope we don't live to regret that. Billy V coming in is the right decision, but we don't even have Slade on the bench. Why bother including Slade in the squad if there's absolutely no chance of him being involved in any role of importance.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 24, 2015, 11:09:48 AM
Yay, Farrell, Burgess and Barritt with Goode as cover for the back 5 on the bench, the guy is a fucking clown.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 24, 2015, 11:52:44 AM
I want us to win the World Cup, but it seems like decisions are being made that will make that extremely unlikely. I just don't understand why we're trying to match Wales at their own game plan. You wouldn't do that against the All Blacks would you? We showed in Cardiff earlier this year the way to beat them is to play around them. That's why Australia beat them everytime. If we had a back line with Ford and Slade in we'd have a much better chance. We might still win on Saturday, but we're making it needlessly difficult for ourselves.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on September 24, 2015, 12:54:15 PM
I was going to comment but you have all summed up my thoughts nicely.

Attritional, no flair rugby.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 24, 2015, 02:14:24 PM
I don't necessarily have a problem with Burgess playing, as I don't think he's a particularly negative pick. He showed good quality last week and made plenty of yards. It's just having him and Barritt that I don't like.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on September 24, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
The shame is that Burgess in a year or 2 could do everything that Barritt offers and more, allowing him to be paired with a more creative centre.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 24, 2015, 03:42:58 PM
Well let's hope this experience proves useful to him then.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 24, 2015, 07:09:21 PM
if this RWC is going to produce a 100 pointer, tonight's the night
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 24, 2015, 07:42:58 PM
You think Namibia will score that many?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 24, 2015, 07:59:22 PM
Yay, Farrell, Burgess and Barritt with Goode as cover for the back 5 on the bench, the guy is a fucking clown.

I think with the talent that is within the English game, anything less than reaching the final should mean a p45 for Mr Lancaster.

With the players left out of the squad originally, and with these changes I just can't see that happening.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 24, 2015, 08:26:28 PM
Yay, Farrell, Burgess and Barritt with Goode as cover for the back 5 on the bench, the guy is a fucking clown.

I think with the talent that is within the English game, anything less than reaching the final should mean a p45 for Mr Lancaster.

With the players left out of the squad originally, and with these changes I just can't see that happening.

Shame it will come too late for us to see the trophy lifted on home soil.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 24, 2015, 09:01:40 PM
To be honest if we win the World Cup I'll forgive for these decisions.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on September 25, 2015, 12:13:46 AM
On the basis of what I've seen so far, still can't see anyone stopping Scotland.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on September 25, 2015, 10:02:22 AM
I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 25, 2015, 10:19:45 AM
I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.

I hope you're right, because it's a very important game to win.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 25, 2015, 02:17:38 PM
The selection is made now and I hope that Farrell, Burgess and Barritt have absolutely storming games and we batter Wales.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 25, 2015, 06:41:15 PM
What's been kind of missed in the big selection debate is that England's forwards have to turn up for all this game. No more wilting in the scrum.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 25, 2015, 08:43:28 PM
I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.

Getting the ball to those fast wings is the problem.  Big strong centres are great but they have to have good hands, Burgess is massively inexperienced and Barritt is a terrible passer so I can't see us working the ball wide with pace and accuracy to exploit gaps.  If we do score tries it's going to be forward push-overs or cross-field kicks and, in my opinion, Farrell's kicking from hand isn't accurate enough for that, Ford is far better at those.

As I've said he's picked a team to win penalties and kick points and given himself no alternative if it doesn't work, Slade on the bench ahead of Goode would've at least given the option to have a creative centre, or Nowell gives you the option to move Watson into there (he hasn't played centre much at any level but he has the defence and passing to be an option).  I just can't work out what Goode brings that isn't covered by Farrell and Ford, it's a pathetic selection of a player who has done nothing to deserve his place in the squad.

To put this in context I'd liken playing Watson and May outside that midfield to Villa last season under Lambert, it's boring as fuck and you're making a very potent attacking threat look shit by giving it scraps to work with.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheadlevilla on September 25, 2015, 08:55:21 PM
I hope the referee takes a good look at Gethin Jenkins from the start, because he never ever binds straight and bores more than a Lambert team!!!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 26, 2015, 09:28:03 AM
I'm already nervous!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 26, 2015, 10:51:10 AM
One thing we really need is for the players to keep cool heads tonight, especially Farrell. He needs to orchestrate the game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: simboy on September 26, 2015, 11:22:58 AM
I thought Ford was poor against Fiji and was targeted because of his size. Farrell is better in the tackle and did play well when he came on. I'm not sold on Farrell but I'm not as put out as some by his selection. Wales try to bully and I don't see a problem in standing up to them and relying on strength and fast wings.


 

Getting the ball to those fast wings is the problem.  Big strong centres are great but they have to have good hands, Burgess is massively inexperienced and Barritt is a terrible passer so I can't see us working the ball wide with pace and accuracy to exploit gaps.  If we do score tries it's going to be forward push-overs or cross-field kicks and, in my opinion, Farrell's kicking from hand isn't accurate enough for that, Ford is far better at those.

As I've said he's picked a team to win penalties and kick points and given himself no alternative if it doesn't work, Slade on the bench ahead of Goode would've at least given the option to have a creative centre, or Nowell gives you the option to move Watson into there (he hasn't played centre much at any level but he has the defence and passing to be an option).  I just can't work out what Goode brings that isn't covered by Farrell and Ford, it's a pathetic selection of a player who has done nothing to deserve his place in the squad.

To put this in context I'd liken playing Watson and May outside that midfield to Villa last season under Lambert, it's boring as fuck and you're making a very potent attacking threat look shit by giving it scraps to work with.


Burgess is a big match player. A broken cheek bone in the first minute Grand Final before 80,000 Aussie rugby league fans he goes on to win the man of the match. His performances for Bath may not be brilliant but hes learning slightly different tactical considerations. The game he started for England, it seemed to me that he was wary of the off side law but performed pretty well. He's there to keep Roberts in check. Its a decision that has its risks but less than the Ford/Farrell switch.

Farrell has demonstrated time and again that he lets the occasion get to him and bubbles over, we need calm heads to make the decisions at important times. Not convinced Farrell is that man. Hope to be proved wrong.   
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 26, 2015, 11:24:26 AM
I'm hoping today is the day Burgess arrives as a union player.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 26, 2015, 01:26:42 PM
I think Burgess will be a fantastic centre in a year or 2 but his running lines and timing is still tuned to league. The main risk though is to pick 2 crash centres which makes us predictable, if they don't punch holes and offload regularly we'll be in trouble. I'd trust Burrell to do that but Barritt doesn't have the skill and Burgess doesn't look ready.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 26, 2015, 01:42:16 PM
This is a bigger game for the Welsh.  We sometimes do Australia, but they never do.  A win today is their best chance to qualify.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PeterWithesShin on September 26, 2015, 04:59:54 PM
Loads of South Africa fans around town earlier. The team were staying at the Hyatt. With the SA fans, and the Birmingham Weekender on, it was a mare getting around town.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on September 26, 2015, 05:13:04 PM
Anyone outside b6 selling H&V today
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Flamingo Lane on September 26, 2015, 08:17:27 PM
I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".   
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 26, 2015, 09:56:46 PM
Idiots.  That was a game they should have won with something to spare.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 26, 2015, 09:58:39 PM
Cheerio Lancaster, you won't be missed, every pressure match since you took over you gone defensive and we've bottled it. It's now going to cost us a chance to win a home world cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Colhint on September 26, 2015, 10:00:41 PM
To not consider the armitage brothers was a big mistake
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Flamingo Lane on September 26, 2015, 10:00:44 PM
What a fantastic example of spirit and triumph over adversity, well done Wales.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Brazilian Villain on September 26, 2015, 10:05:16 PM
Great game, well done Wales.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: adrenachrome on September 26, 2015, 10:07:07 PM
I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".   

Same here. Glad I am not the only one.

I went to Warwick University in the mid 70's, and the "Warwick Wankers" as the rugger buggers liked to be known, were ****s to a man.

In the late 70's I used to go the Reddings to watch Moseley, and this restored my faith in the game somewhat, but that was blown away many years ago. Don't ask.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 26, 2015, 10:09:53 PM
I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".   

Same here. Glad I am not the only one.

I went to Warwick University in the mid 70's, and the "Warwick Wankers" as the rugger buggers liked to be known, were ****s to a man.

In the late 70's I used to go the Reddings to watch Moseley, and this restored my faith in the game somewhat, but that was blown away many years ago. Don't ask.

Good job believing the stereotype.  In reality I know plenty of rugby players and fans who are working class, the handful of public school people I've worked with over the last few years are all Arsenal fans and have no interest in rugby.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Meanwood Villa on September 26, 2015, 10:13:30 PM
As an Englishman I wanted England to win. Gutted.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 26, 2015, 10:15:07 PM
Woeful last 20 mins and indiscipline cost us the game. Terrible.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 26, 2015, 10:15:11 PM
Bye bye Lancaster, too many favourites, no invention and no ideas. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on September 26, 2015, 10:16:00 PM
I shall probably be lambasted for this, but being English and having a modicum of interest in rugby, I really hope Wales win; attributable to the working class chip on my shoulder, and my innate hatred for the braying upper middle class public schoolboy rugger bugger swing low swing chariot tossers that make up our "support".   

Did you also know that all true Brummies support Blues and Villa fans are all middle class twats that come from Worcestershire?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Tuscans on September 26, 2015, 10:18:03 PM
Bye bye Lancaster, too many favourites, no invention and no ideas. 
HA HA, I can't get away with people wanting someone sacked, even on a rugby thread.

Good game though that, reckon you lot lost it mentally...thought we would roll over seeing all our injured going off.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on September 26, 2015, 10:19:37 PM
The England rugby chant is one of the most embarrassing songs sang at sporting events. So fucking lame.

Only Keep Right On and "Let's go Andy, let's go! (Clap! Clap!)", Rival it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 26, 2015, 10:28:17 PM
Bye bye Lancaster, too many favourites, no invention and no ideas. 
HA HA, I can't get away with people wanting someone sacked, even on a rugby thread.

Good game though that, reckon you lot lost it mentally...thought we would roll over seeing all our injured going off.

It was more the negativity earlier in the game, 2-3 times we got a penalty within 40 yards of the posts with the ball still in hand and we just gave it up so we could get the shot at goal rather than trying something to make the gap wider.  If you leave a small gap and make it clear that your plan is to hold what you've got it just encourages teams to throw everything at you, Leicester did it to Villa and Wales have just done it to England.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on September 26, 2015, 11:14:16 PM
To lose at home to a very mediocre Wales team says a lot about Lancaster. His position is now untenable, regardless of what happens during the rest of this World Cup.

The talent there is in the English game, and he produces that fucking piece of garbage anti rugby? Fucking disgraceful
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 26, 2015, 11:31:47 PM
Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 26, 2015, 11:37:41 PM
England's biggest isn't style of play it's indiscipline. If you concede 10+ penalites every game you're going to lost most of them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on September 27, 2015, 12:36:03 AM
Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Wales lose to Fiji to be honest.

And changes or non changes, that game was in the bag.  England only have themselves to blame.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 27, 2015, 12:52:00 AM
Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.

Well no it wasn't, that's the problem.  The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts.  The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes.  Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game.  I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect.  Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.

As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7.  Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton.  Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on September 27, 2015, 02:10:51 AM
Aussies are celebrating. One because England lost and two because they think it's a good result for them.  Not sure how, if everything goes to form (cough) it'll just mean a winner takes all game at Twickenham surely where England have a pretty good recent record against them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 27, 2015, 09:30:23 AM
Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.

Well no it wasn't, that's the problem.  The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts.  The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes.  Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game.  I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect.  Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.

As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7.  Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton.  Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.

Well it kind of was because the starting 15 had pretty much complete control of the game. I agree the bench wasn't right and Slade should have been there instead of Goode. But his big selection calls, Farrell and Burgess, both played pretty well. The Armitage factor is slightly unfair due to the rule the the RFU has in place. Ultimately Armitage knew by playing abroad he effectively makes himself unselectable. He could have done something about that, but he didn't.

Anyway it's by the by now, Lancaster has one game to save his England career. The way the group pans out, if we beat Australia we're probably through and if we don't we're out. So it's quite simple now. I'd be half tempted to go with a Burgess and Joseph partnership in that game, if JJ is fit.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on September 27, 2015, 11:31:03 AM
I thought England always looked fairly comfortable, but when you keep giving penalties away in kicking distance you always leave yourselves open to a sucker punch. The substitutions seemed to hand it to the Welsh.

Positive spin on this is that Wales wont beat Australia where as I think we could.
But for me, with the Welsh injuries mounting beating Fiji is not a forgone conclusion. If, and it's a massive IF, Fiji turn up they could very well turn them over.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 27, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.

Well no it wasn't, that's the problem.  The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts.  The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes.  Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game.  I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect.  Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.

As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7.  Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton.  Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.

Well it kind of was because the starting 15 had pretty much complete control of the game. I agree the bench wasn't right and Slade should have been there instead of Goode. But his big selection calls, Farrell and Burgess, both played pretty well. The Armitage factor is slightly unfair due to the rule the the RFU has in place. Ultimately Armitage knew by playing abroad he effectively makes himself unselectable. He could have done something about that, but he didn't.

Anyway it's by the by now, Lancaster has one game to save his England career. The way the group pans out, if we beat Australia we're probably through and if we don't we're out. So it's quite simple now. I'd be half tempted to go with a Burgess and Joseph partnership in that game, if JJ is fit.

But as i said, that control came from the pack not from the backs.  In open play Farrell was poor but no one will talk about because he kicked all his chances and made a couple of decent tackles. Barritt was anonymous and the wings largely worked off scraps, even the try we scored we fucked up the move and Wales left a massive blind side when we were recycling.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Duncan Shaw on September 27, 2015, 12:17:36 PM
VP looking resplendent, lovely to see!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: AlexAlexCropley on September 27, 2015, 03:07:22 PM
Any reason why the Villa Park crowds were 39,526/39,605 rather than 42,500?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on September 27, 2015, 04:05:16 PM
It was a problem with the execution, leading to us not putting them away when on top. Felt like I'd been mugged on the train back.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 27, 2015, 04:15:37 PM
Thing is his selection was largely vindicated in the first half. It's his changes that buried us. Terrible last 20 mins. They've got one game to save it now. Basically if we beat Australia we're probably through.

Well no it wasn't, that's the problem.  The pack was vindicated because we destroyed them at the set piece and restarts.  The issue is we should've been out of sight by the time he made changes.  Aside from that the bench in any sport serves 2 purposes, 1 is injury cover and the other is to bring in players who change the game.  I didn't see anyone on that bench who could come on and change the game except maybe Launchbury, but given we lost Lawes to bring him in it had no effect.  Ford was player a loser because his game is about bring in intelligent runners to open gaps, and only Watson fits that brief from the 5 he had outside him.

As I've said before the indiscipline comes because we can't win turnover ball or slow play down effectively with the choice we have at 7.  Our best player at the breakdown is Dan Cole and whilst he's decent for a prop he's never going to compete legally with Lydiate and Warburton.  Add Armitage to that side and we'd see 3-4 less penalties per game.

Well it kind of was because the starting 15 had pretty much complete control of the game. I agree the bench wasn't right and Slade should have been there instead of Goode. But his big selection calls, Farrell and Burgess, both played pretty well. The Armitage factor is slightly unfair due to the rule the the RFU has in place. Ultimately Armitage knew by playing abroad he effectively makes himself unselectable. He could have done something about that, but he didn't.

Anyway it's by the by now, Lancaster has one game to save his England career. The way the group pans out, if we beat Australia we're probably through and if we don't we're out. So it's quite simple now. I'd be half tempted to go with a Burgess and Joseph partnership in that game, if JJ is fit.

But as i said, that control came from the pack not from the backs.  In open play Farrell was poor but no one will talk about because he kicked all his chances and made a couple of decent tackles. Barritt was anonymous and the wings largely worked off scraps, even the try we scored we fucked up the move and Wales left a massive blind side when we were recycling.

We did fuck up the try, but that had nothing to do with Farrell, Burgess and Barritt they worked it very well before Watson's pass.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 27, 2015, 04:17:18 PM
I still think there's a good chance we'll go through, because I can see us nicking the game on Saturday and I think ironically Wales will pay the price for that victory.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 27, 2015, 06:22:15 PM
Incidentally what do you reckon on chances of Woodward coming back to coach us? The RFU has changed since he was last in charge and he might relish another crack at it with a younger squad with great potential.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheadlevilla on September 27, 2015, 07:51:59 PM
Incidentally what do you reckon on chances of Woodward coming back to coach us? The RFU has changed since he was last in charge and he might relish another crack at it with a younger squad with great potential.
No chance at all in my view, which is a shame as I'm convinced he changed the face of modern coaching.
My problem with Lancaster is that he seems to have planned, timed substitutions which are made no matter how well the incumbents are playing. Rugby thrives on momentum and he keeps destroying it for "impact substitutions" which aren't always needed
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on September 27, 2015, 07:54:03 PM
We probably needed to beat Australia to win the group before yesterday, and nothing has really changed.

The discipline, lack of turnovers at the breakdown is something that bothers me, and I think it is a mistake to not pick our best players. All the other nations will pick players playing overseas, and not sure it seems to be hampering them. Putting Armitage into the back row would in my opinion improve our team significantly. Too late now though.....

Oh yeah, and those clock watching subs are also odd, there is no pragmatism.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 27, 2015, 08:45:16 PM
It was a problem with the execution, leading to us not putting them away when on top. Felt like I'd been mugged on the train back.

at least 100% correct, we should've been 15-20 points ahead on the hour, we'd dominated the scrum, had great success from the lineout and had loads of possession, but too often we kicked it away or played for a penalty so we could get the easy 3 points which meant tthe indiscipline at the back gave them the opportunity to keep in touch.  If you dominate a side for that long but only have a 4 point lead with 15minutes left you're inviting them to throw everything at you.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 28, 2015, 02:24:35 PM
This weekend England are going to have to get everything absolutely spot on. Also in spite of the Aussies recent improvements in the scrum we need to dominate that area to stand any chance.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 28, 2015, 06:05:56 PM
Billy V out of World Cup replaced with Easter. In some ways that's a real blow, but in some respects I think a wily experienced head is something we'll need against Australia. We need a cool head on the pitch when the going gets tough.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 28, 2015, 06:37:57 PM
Billy V out of World Cup replaced with Easter. In some ways that's a real blow, but in some respects I think a wily experienced head is something we'll need against Australia. We need a cool head on the pitch when the going gets tough.

It's a massive blow, he was at the heart of everything we did well in the first 2 games.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 28, 2015, 07:09:18 PM
I'd be tempted to start with Easter, as I think Morgan offers more impact off the bench.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on September 29, 2015, 08:36:28 AM
A bloke at work went to the Aus v Uru game.

He was describing his view and saying that he was in amongst the Aussie squad members and their families.

I said that that must be close to my ST seat. He showed me his ticket. It wasn't just close to my seat, it was my seat
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on September 29, 2015, 10:15:46 AM
That's funny.

OT : Reminds me of the time I was chatting to a girl I worked with in central London and discovered she lived in the same Docklands flat I had rented twenty years earlier.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 30, 2015, 11:40:14 AM
I see the circling of the wagons is in full effect with England, including a few gems from Richard "I don't quite know why I'm here" Wigglesworth - http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/29/richard-wigglesworth-will-carling-england-stuart-lancaster

Specifically about Will Carling:

“But if he doesn’t know and hasn’t played the game for how long and hasn’t been involved in professional rugby for how long, let’s have a meaningful discussion about his knowledge, about what he knows about the game. He is there to further his own career and good luck to him.”

I've never particularly liked wigglesworth, but the arrogance in that statement is enough to push me into actively disliking him. The comments he's responding to are here - http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/will-carling-criticises-england-s-classroom-orientated-environment-1.2369747

All seems fairly legitimate to me and largely mirrors my own opinions on the selection and coaching issues.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on September 30, 2015, 04:38:46 PM
Looking at the BBC news feed about the rugby I spotted this one from Monday:

Former England player Paul Ackford said: "England have come to resemble their head coach's image: wholesome, compassionate, likeable, but - sadly - toothless."

I'd just pop "and predictable" at the end and that sums it up.  I'm still pissed off about Saturday, I really need to let it go now but I have too many welsh people as friends.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on September 30, 2015, 04:42:17 PM
I'm still pissed off about Saturday, I really need to let it go now but I have too many welsh people as friends.

Imagine being there and sat between two Welshmen. I may need therapy for years to come...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on September 30, 2015, 04:51:00 PM
On the bright side it's only rugby  :)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 30, 2015, 07:17:57 PM
Time to move on, we fucked up last week and we need to make amends this week. Should we win I think there's a good chance Wales are going out. Now that would be funny.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: JD on October 01, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
Beat the Aussies and it will all be forgotten. Lose and f&*k it it's only Rugby.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2015, 08:11:44 AM
It's a shame Fiji's two key players are out today, it would be great if they could beat Wales. Other than England's performance at the weekend it also annoys me that Wales are being lauded. They only won, because we completely lost our gameplan.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2015, 09:17:58 AM
It's a very strong Aussie team.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 01, 2015, 09:30:47 AM
They are and their longstanding Achilles heal of the scrum improved massively in the 4 nations but I think they can still be intimidated if we get in their faces and they concede few early penalties in the scrum. Once they lose confidence England could get a roll on.

They'll be strongest the breakdown, Pocock and Hooper are excellent and provide their backs with good ball.  If we lose that battle we could be in trouble as Falou and Ashley-Cooper will score tries. However, they still don't really know their best halves combination and Checka is a rookie at international level.

England havea good recent record against them in WC rugby though, sent them out in 95, 03 and 07.  Aussies quite confident as usual.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2015, 09:59:56 AM
I'm not surprised their confident having seen us play last week. But in fairness to Farrell he had a good game last week, and our best chance against them is beat them in the set piece. JJ coming back into the backline will help with the balance as well.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
I'm happier with the balance of the team this week, principally because JJ is in. It instantly makes us look a better team, plus it has the added benefit of getting Goode out of the squad.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 01, 2015, 01:44:00 PM
Apologies for the source but this WC is forecast to have the highest aggregate attendance of any sporting event.  And also the most expensive.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3254706/Rugby-World-Cup-one-best-attended-sporting-events-despite-expensive.html#ixzz3nDmlG2Cv

That's impressive.  Any idea where the money goes?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 01, 2015, 01:50:08 PM
Crikey. Using the numbers from the article, so far, 983,000 people have attached matches with an average ticket price of £104.  Ignoring the beer drunk, that's £100M.  Considering that a reasonable % of the attendees will have come from abroad that's a decent injection of cash into the country's economy.

...And we're not even half way through.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on October 01, 2015, 02:18:30 PM
Putting cost of ticket, transport, food and beer together, reckon I spent well over £300.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 01, 2015, 02:25:30 PM
How do the attendances compare to the Tour De France? Sometimes a single stage has over a million watching.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: ADVILLAFAN on October 01, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
How do the attendances compare to the Tour De France? Sometimes a single stage has over a million watching.

Whereas it has me rushing to change the channel on the remote
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2015, 06:55:52 PM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 01, 2015, 07:15:34 PM
Shit or bust on Saturday now. Lose and we are out. Win and I think we will win the group.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 01, 2015, 08:48:46 PM
Wales were lucky to get away with that. Fiji ran them very close.

Any news on Dan Biggar's injury?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: spangley1812 on October 01, 2015, 09:07:59 PM
Wales were lucky to get away with that. Fiji ran them very close.

Any news on Dan Biggar's injury?

It is only cramp apparently
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Pete3206 on October 01, 2015, 09:08:09 PM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 01, 2015, 09:39:34 PM
Of course they do.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 01, 2015, 10:08:35 PM
I'd say it 50:50.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 02, 2015, 12:37:27 AM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.

Reallly? All of the bookmakers have us as slight favourites for the match. You're going to make an absolute fortune on Saturday night
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 02, 2015, 07:13:57 AM
It's a shame Fiji's two key players are out today, it would be great if they could beat Wales. Other than England's performance at the weekend it also annoys me that Wales are being lauded. They only won, because we completely lost our gameplan.

They crossed the gain line once all evening, scored a try and kicked the penalties we presented them with, somehow that made them number 2 in the world.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 02, 2015, 07:15:59 AM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.

What a load of bollocks.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 02, 2015, 08:42:34 AM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.

Reallly? All of the bookmakers have us as slight favourites for the match. You're going to make an absolute fortune on Saturday night

It's utter nonsense. Don't get me wrong I think it's a very close call, but to say England have no chance is wrong. It's very important the forwards turn up and dominate the set piece.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 02, 2015, 08:51:12 AM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.

Yeah, 4 wins in the last 5 meetings is the sort of record that suggests it's impossible...

Back in the real world we need to dominate their front 5 from the very start and try to get the ball wide as early as possible to get Pocock and Hooper running all over the pitch, if we can tire those 2 out they lose a lot of their advantage at the breakdown.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dr Butler on October 02, 2015, 08:56:09 AM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.

Yeah, 4 wins in the last 5 meetings is the sort of record that suggests it's impossible...

Back in the real world we need to dominate their front 5 from the very start and try to get the ball wide as early as possible to get Pocock and Hooper running all over the pitch, if we can tire those 2 out they lose a lot of their advantage at the breakdown.

we said pretty much the same about Hooper and Pocock in the pub yesterday as we watched Fuji v Wales...

UTV
The Doc
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 02, 2015, 09:29:31 AM
Morgan destroyed them at the scrum in the Autumn international last year, here's hoping he can do that again.
The bread stealing convicts might be just a little too consumed with the thought of putting England out of their own World Cup and take their eyes off the ball as well.
Looks a better side with Joseph back in the side (good to see another local boy doing good, his Mum taught my daughter at school)

Let's fuck the fuckers.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 02, 2015, 01:57:36 PM
Good display Fiji. The Welsh failure to get a bonus points makes it very simple. Lose on Saturday and we're out, win and we're probably about 99% certain of going through.

It's a pipe dream. England have absolutely no chance of beating the Aussies. Zero.

Yeah, 4 wins in the last 5 meetings is the sort of record that suggests it's impossible...

Back in the real world we need to dominate their front 5 from the very start and try to get the ball wide as early as possible to get Pocock and Hooper running all over the pitch, if we can tire those 2 out they lose a lot of their advantage at the breakdown.

Yep it's almost a paradox, we need to crush them in the forwards but we need to get the ball wide to do that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 02, 2015, 01:58:09 PM
Morgan destroyed them at the scrum in the Autumn international last year, here's hoping he can do that again.
The bread stealing convicts might be just a little too consumed with the thought of putting England out of their own World Cup and take their eyes off the ball as well.
Looks a better side with Joseph back in the side (good to see another local boy doing good, his Mum taught my daughter at school)

Let's fuck the fuckers.

Yep Morgan has looked well short of match fitness, we really need him to step up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 09:17:51 AM
Given that this is our home World Cup this is probably our biggest game since the 2007 final. It is the definition of must win and I really hope we turn in one of those quality performances that we occasionally do.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 03, 2015, 10:38:04 AM
NZ v Georgia was a pretty entertaining game to watch.

Georgia gave it everything they had (even matching NZ at the cheating at times) but the All Blacks pulled away in the end
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 11:04:31 AM
Yeah it was decent. I'm praying this weekend will be a reversal of last weekend and we get a Villa and an England win.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 03, 2015, 11:09:54 AM
Amen to that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 05:01:45 PM
Oh well 50% of that wish has failed.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 07:22:40 PM
Discipline is absolutely paramount tonight England. No stupid penalties. Give a performance worthy of the hosts of the World Cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:06:33 PM
If I were England coach, I'd fine any #9 that box kicked it.

Every single time it's a waste.

First scrum was worrying - Aussies held their own.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 08:12:29 PM
Oz having a good start
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:27:18 PM
Oz runners with ball in hand very strong in the contact, forcing our tacklers back.  Fitness will be key later on, hope we have the stamina.  But they look like breaking through whenever they attack - and that try was too easy as well.

We need to hang on to possession as much as we can, starve them of the ball. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:29:41 PM
We are playing some decent rugby ourselves, Aussies a bit lucky on a couple of occasions. Our defence is a worry though.

Referee is a worry. Every scrum so far should have been a penalty to England. Referee reluctant to give it
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:30:21 PM
That is a fucking joke of a decision
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:34:11 PM
We are playing some decent rugby ourselves, Aussies a bit lucky on a couple of occasions. Our defence is a worry though.

There's a little bit of the pre-2003 about us - we look good, until we get to their 22, then we huff and puff and can't blow the house down.  It's like the SH mental block is back.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 08:37:17 PM
Pocock is superb at turning ball over at the breakdown.  We lose momentum quite quickly going forward.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:38:14 PM
This ref is a disgrace
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:39:06 PM
We have no chance with a referee incorrectly interpreting the scrum
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:40:32 PM
Was forward without a doubt
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:41:04 PM
going out with a whimper
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 08:41:17 PM
Oh well game over.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:41:21 PM
Not looking good is it?  Why do Villa and England have to play on the same day?  Just compounded misery.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:43:04 PM
Brilliant. 14 points down and just kick it out of play
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 08:43:17 PM
Ben Youngs has been terrible, this is 2 world cups in a row where he's stunk it out.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:44:57 PM
Surely that should have at least been a yellow
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 08:47:24 PM
Oz have been very good we have been dire . Frozen.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:48:15 PM
I think we should bring Cipriani, Burrell, Tuilagi and Steffan Armitage on.

Oh wait we can't, because of pathetic selection decisions.

At least Barritt has justified his place in the team for his defence
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 08:49:49 PM
Fiji's defence put up a MUCH stronger resistance against Australia than ours has
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 03, 2015, 08:49:57 PM
Ben Youngs has been terrible, this is 2 world cups in a row where he's stunk it out.

I agree, some of his decision making is just bloody dire, he never seems to stop and think for two seconds. We are way off it, Australia miles better, their physicality and superior speed of thought are playing us off the park. We look like a Sunday league team
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:50:27 PM
Goodbye England.  Can't quite think of a host stinking out their own tournament as much as this lot have, considering how good they're "supposed" to be. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 03, 2015, 08:50:37 PM
Even I with my rudimentary grasp of rubgy could see the weakness of our scrum would see us caught out. The team look fragile and with little belief. This could be a hammering.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 08:52:45 PM
I think we should bring Cipriani, Burrell, Tuilagi and Steffan Armitage on.

Oh wait we can't, because of pathetic selection decisions.

At least Barritt has justified his place in the team for his defence

Armitage in the team and we'd be leading, they're finding it too easy to slow it down.

Ah well at least won't have a path unwanted record like being the first Host to go out in the groups. Wait...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:52:54 PM
I think we should bring Cipriani, Burrell, Tuilagi and Steffan Armitage on.

Oh wait we can't, because of pathetic selection decisions.

At least Barritt has justified his place in the team for his defence

Since 2003 though, no coach has ever seemingly selected the right players.  It's like we have this world class XV of non-picked players, if only coach X, Y or Z could only see ....

Maybe the premiership just produces brainless robotic players with no bottle and poor skills?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 08:54:13 PM
I can't imagine this England teaming scoring a try like the second Australian score.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
I can't imagine this England teaming scoring a try like the second Australian score.

We played some nice rugby in the 6N this year, but we've regressed horribly since then.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 03, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
Must score early. First 5 mins or so.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Rudy65 on October 03, 2015, 08:59:08 PM
My rugby knowledge is a bit limited, but we look a bit like the national footy team when they come up aginst anyone any good. Or Villa, a bit clueless
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:01:10 PM
My rugby knowledge is a bit limited, but we look a bit like the national footy team when they come up aginst anyone any good. Or Villa, a bit clueless

No way as bad as the Villa.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:03:27 PM
So our most attacking threat is now on the wing.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 09:05:04 PM
So our most attacking threat is now on the wing.

And we have the least attacking centre pair in the tournament
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:06:19 PM
So our most attacking threat is now on the wing.

Must be a sub due to injury, no other explanation.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:07:20 PM
I have no idea what has happened to our forwards.

Marler is a penalty waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:07:30 PM
They are beasting us at the breakdown.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 09:09:46 PM
Pocock again at the breakdown, how many times,  superb tbf.  Aussies are just a far better side.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aj2k77 on October 03, 2015, 09:10:07 PM
We're shit, a day of watching Villa and these twats, glorious.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:10:13 PM
I have no idea what has happened to our forwards.

Marler is a penalty waiting to happen.

And again.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 09:10:54 PM
Penalties to Wallabies at the scrum - doing a job on us here.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:11:12 PM
They are beasting us at the breakdown.

And now the scrum.

Goodnight all, there must be something better to do at this time of night.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aj2k77 on October 03, 2015, 09:11:37 PM
Taxi for Lancaster anyway, he's been failing for years.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:13:35 PM
Prince Harry was part of the team meeting? Wtf??
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:14:29 PM
Maybe the Queen has been doing the scrum practice?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:16:39 PM
Lancaster should never ever get another job in English rugby after this disgrace of a world cup
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:19:37 PM
Too little too late
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:20:25 PM
Shock horror. Ford on and we look better. Lancaster really is a fucking cretin for dropping him
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 09:21:38 PM
Nice to see Ford come on and show just how much of a prick Lancaster is to have left him out, shame a few others won't get that opportunity.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 09:22:44 PM
Prince Harry was part of the team meeting? Wtf??

If that's true that's fucking ridiculous.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:22:57 PM
Nice to see Ford come on and show just how much of a prick Lancaster is to have left him out, shame a few others won't get that opportunity.

He probably wouldn't have even bought him on if it weren't for the injury to May. I've absolutely no doubt that we would have beaten Wales comfortably had Ford started
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:23:05 PM
That conversion was made pretty easily, and was more or less from the same spot as the pen vs Wales that they kicked into touch last week ...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:24:17 PM
Nick Easter - isn't he too fat, and too old?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 09:26:38 PM
Nowhere near good enough
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:28:33 PM
George Ford. The two words that should be thrown at Lancaster in every interview, every conversation he ever has wherever he goes after being sacked tomorrow
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 09:29:30 PM
Aussies are so dominant at the breakdown it's not funny. Feels like It's either possession or a penalty every time.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:33:59 PM
Phil the Greek on line outs.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:34:31 PM
Aussies are so dominant at the breakdown it's not funny. Feels like It's either possession or a penalty every time.

Another reason why Steffan Armitage should be in the team
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:35:33 PM
These officials are having a laugh now
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:36:13 PM
Really?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:37:51 PM
He'd already knocked on. How the fuck can it be a penalty????????
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:38:13 PM
Game over.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:39:00 PM
That is a fucking disgrace.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:40:38 PM
We've been poor, unacceptably so, but the officials have had a mare
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:42:08 PM
There should have been a yellow for the Aussies when Pocock (I think) flew into a ruck without using his arms and cleared out Mike Brown.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 03, 2015, 09:42:08 PM
Farrell and Burgess could both have been carded there
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:42:57 PM
Farrell and Burgess could both have been carded there

The aussie had already knocked on
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:44:06 PM
Another misinterpreted scrum to put the nail in the coffin
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 09:44:42 PM
There should have been a yellow for the Aussies when Pocock (I think) flew into a ruck without using his arms and cleared out Mike Brown.

Agree, inconsistency there, and he wad very harsh on Marler as well.

Doesn't take away from the fact that Lancaster is a moron and has proven himself totally incapable as i suspected he would all along.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: itbrvilla on October 03, 2015, 09:45:27 PM
Shocker for officials and England.Both piss poor
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:46:49 PM
3 minutes have gone by with virtually no rugby. Aside from being furious at a gutless England rugby team, surely something has to be done about the amount of time that is allowed to just be wiped off the clock?

They should be calling time off every time a scrum needs to be set, and why the fuck does a kicker get up to a minute to kick?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 09:48:34 PM
Australia have deserved it to be honest.  They've been better in every department but the breakdown dominance was huge.

Very poor from England. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:49:24 PM
The England coach who oversees his team losing virtually all their scrums to Oz deserves a P45.  Losing.  Scrums.  To.  Oz.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: itbrvilla on October 03, 2015, 09:49:28 PM
Shite.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 09:50:26 PM
Embarrassing
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:51:02 PM
Feel sorry for players like Watson and JJ - real quality players that deserve better around them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:51:10 PM
They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.

They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.

I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 09:51:27 PM
And there ends the Lancaster reign. Ultimately a good man who was too rigid and narrow minded in selection and bottled it at the key time. Another disasterous world cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 09:51:57 PM
In a big pressure, must win game that is a hammering.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:51:59 PM
Gordon Brittas looking like he knows he won't see out his contract.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:52:20 PM
Nine turnovers.

The writing was on the wall last week. Hell, it was on the wall last season.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:52:47 PM
They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.

They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.

I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?

George Ford not on until half time is a pretty massive fucking complaint
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:53:40 PM
They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.

They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.

I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?

George Ford not on until half time is a pretty massive fucking complaint

I don't think he would have changed the result to be honest.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:53:57 PM
Sigh.  Supporting Argentina now.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 03, 2015, 09:54:09 PM
Worse coach? Lancaster or Sherwood? Who's ya got ?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 03, 2015, 09:55:06 PM
Oh dear, bang goes all the media and marketing hype! ITV will not be happy. We looked like brainless pub players, the Australians had so much more physicality and sharpness of mind. We mirror the coach and the captain - slow and not very bright. Totally outclassed in every department.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 09:56:05 PM
First turnover was in the 77th minute according to the radio.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
They were miles better than us. We fucked it last week, but this week no complaints. They are by far the better team.

They have torn us a new one up front. Australia.

I wonder what Steffon Armitage thinks?

George Ford not on until half time is a pretty massive fucking complaint

I don't think he would have changed the result to be honest.

In the first half, during the spells with the ball we had, he'd have made a massive difference in unlocking their defence in their 22. By the time he came on there was just too much to do.

We'd definitely have beaten Wales last week if he'd started
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 03, 2015, 09:58:09 PM
Could be lots of empty seats in Manchester next Saturday
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 09:59:07 PM
ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something.  Cheer up!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: taylorsworkrate on October 03, 2015, 10:01:07 PM
Yet another fucking horrible weekend of sport
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 03, 2015, 10:02:29 PM
ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something.  Cheer up!

They know that interest in the tournament that they are televising will plummet from now on. I will watch the quarters and so on because I'm a big rugby fan but the masses of people with a casual interest won't tune in again after today.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 03, 2015, 10:09:09 PM
ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something.  Cheer up!

They know that interest in the tournament that they are televising will plummet from now on. I will watch the quarters and so on because I'm a big rugby fan but the masses of people with a casual interest won't tune in again after today.

The thing is with rugby and the countries that play it, I will be watching the rest of the tournament hoping that both teams lose in most of the matches.  Got SA and Wales family, but SA and Wales losing is far funnier than them winning.  And the ABs losing is always great.  And Oz.  And the French of course.  Not forgetting the other bitter Celts too.  So come on Argentina, come on Japan!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 10:12:07 PM
I'm going to take heart in the fact that we've only got to see 1 more Lancaster team before we get a new manager, hopefully one  with a brain.  Should mean they review the overseas rule as well.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 03, 2015, 10:13:40 PM
ITV playing it like it's Diana's funeral or something.  Cheer up!

They know that interest in the tournament that they are televising will plummet from now on. I will watch the quarters and so on because I'm a big rugby fan but the masses of people with a casual interest won't tune in again after today.

The thing is with rugby and the countries that play it, I will be watching the rest of the tournament hoping that both teams lose in most of the matches.  Got SA and Wales family, but SA and Wales losing is far funnier than them winning.  And the ABs losing is always great.  And Oz.  And the French of course.  Not forgetting the other bitter Celts too.  So come on Argentina, come on Japan!

Just like watching the Villa in other words! You get all your pleasure these days from seeing Chelsea and Liverpool et al lose games. I shall certainly be rooting for Wales and SA to get knocked out.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 10:19:03 PM
I will say I do like Lancaster as a man, he's a decent bloke, but he's managed to do what Johnson did and get us to trough for a World Cup. Robshaw as well is a good man, but not a captain. Back to the drawing board after a tactically naive and shambolic World Cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 10:23:43 PM
Lancaster telling us the squad have come up short.

Cheers for that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 10:28:41 PM
Thing is what else can he say? I think a massively obvious thing is that we need a back row who know how to work at the breakdown. Also players who haven't played for 6 months to a year due to injury shouldn't be at a major tournament regardless of their class.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 10:33:35 PM
The biggest mistake he made was losing his nerve and dropping Ford. That's what ended our hopes and caused confusion.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 10:36:36 PM
Lancaster telling us the squad have come up short.

Cheers for that.
Thing is what else can he say? I think a massively obvious thing is that we need a back row who know how to work at the breakdown. Also players who haven't played for 6 months to a year due to injury shouldn't be at a major tournament regardless of their class.

It came across as blaming the players. Perhaps he was including himself in that.

edit: it has got Matt Dawson razzed up too. "I think what sticks out for me is, when Stuart Lancaster was talking about the squad, he said 'they've come up short'. I find that bizzare."
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 03, 2015, 10:36:46 PM
So with the Villa/Stoke game and the England/Australia game that was really worth only having 3 hours sleep and getting up in the early hours for.

And you lot think you have it bad!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 10:46:12 PM
It's been a bad day
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 10:53:00 PM
A bloody awful day again.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 03, 2015, 10:54:00 PM
Launchbury man of the match.

At least it has ended on a high note.....
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 10:55:39 PM
What a ridiculous decision that is.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 03, 2015, 11:23:03 PM
Launchbury man of the match.

At least it has ended on a high note.....

Totally anonymous and outclassed - extremely over-hyped player who is in fact very average
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 03, 2015, 11:24:47 PM
Launchbury man of the match.

At least it has ended on a high note.....

I'd agree with that from the England team, which makes the decision to replace him with the completely ineffective Kruis all the more bizarre. Yes he was tiring but he was also making a difference.

Right now my opinion is that: Marler, Youngs (both), Parling, Robshaw, Farrell and Barritt from the starters and Easter, Webber, Kruis and Wigglesworth from the bench should all be dropped along with the entire coaching team.  Bring in Waller, Cowan-Dickie, Lawes, Armitage, Robson, Daly, Kvesic, Itoje and Ewers and build a squad for Japan, I couldn't give a fuck about 2016 6N or 2017 6N - winning those but leaving ourselves without the time to get players experienced for the world cup is stupid.  Maybe Armitage is too old but get Kvesic there as well and let him learn from the best 7 in the world (who watched the world cup on the TV).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 11:27:41 PM
Launchbury man of the match.

At least it has ended on a high note.....

Totally anonymous and outclassed - extremely over-hyped player who is in fact very average

Disagree. He's been out for a year, but fully fit and on form he's a brilliant player.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 11:29:15 PM
It is a shame for Lancaster, ultimately his pragmitism has ruined him. If he'd stayed the course with Ford as his starting 10 I bet we would have gone through the group.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 03, 2015, 11:31:18 PM
Farrell shouldn't just be discarded. He's a world class kicker and should be developed.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 03, 2015, 11:35:42 PM
Prince Harry and William arent good talismen
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Comrade Blitz on October 04, 2015, 03:02:54 AM
Shame that the FIFA rules didn't apply: host always gets a free pass into the second round.

But the IRB is not above reproach because the rules seem to arbitrarily revolve around whether the elites will gain an advantage or not on any given play.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: oldtimernow on October 04, 2015, 03:53:42 AM
what about Sherwood taking over the rugby team and Lancaster the football team....


can't be any worse than it already is........can it?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 04, 2015, 08:37:57 AM
We need to learn that whilst character and culture are very important we also need to have a game plan and players who are specialists in their positions.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Rotterdam on October 04, 2015, 09:56:56 AM
For me, the writing was on the wall when Lancaster was asked if the team were ready. 'I think so' was the reply.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 04, 2015, 12:58:20 PM
Farrell shouldn't just be discarded. He's a world class place kicker and should be developed.

Fixed, his tactical kicking is every bit as bad as his passing.  He a more extreme version of Mike Brown, perfectly competent when everything is scripted but as soon as there is a decision to make he either freezes or gets it wrong.

For me, the writing was on the wall when Lancaster was asked if the team were ready. 'I think so' was the reply.

The writing was on the wall when Lancaster got the job on the back of not being terrible as the caretaker, when the England coach has more experience teaching history than he does coaching rugby you know it's not going to end well.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 04, 2015, 07:14:25 PM
We have problems all over to sort. The front row and back row aren't good enough currently. The centre pairing hasn't worked and we had the wrong fly half starting.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 04, 2015, 08:08:06 PM
We have problems all over to sort. The front row and back row aren't good enough currently. The centre pairing hasn't worked and we had the wrong fly half starting.

Front Row - Marler can't scrummage, Youngs can't hook, Webber can't hook or throw, Mako can't scrummage.  We're ok on the other side, Cole is a good player and Brookes will be superb by 2019.
Second Row - Parling isn't good enough, We need to get Itoje into the mix, him Lawes and Launchbury are the match day 3.
Back Row - 8 we're fine with Morgan and Billy, add Ewers and the depth is there, we need a proper 7, the experiment has failed so let's get a proper one in.
Half Backs - Ben Youngs has failed in 2 world cups, lets move on, Simpson and Robson should get a chance. Farrell needs to learn how to play 10, there's more to it than kicking from a tee.
Centres - the primary requirement now needs to be a pairing who can both be involved in attacking play, hopefully Burgess will get a year or 2 of playing 12 under his belt and become the player we wanted but for now he needs to go to his club and learn the game. Barritt should be consigned to pile of truly awful centres to have played for England in the last 12 years (jaime fucking noon top of the list).
Outside backs - Brown needs to improve his decision making, he gets caught on his own too often and puts in some god awful kicks, a couple of tries and lots of metres gained can't excuse him of the mistakes he's made int he last 2-3 years.  The wings are ok, lets work out how to get them ball in space (it starts with replacements at 7 and 9).

Coaches - A bit of fitness work and set-piece work is fine, making that your sole focus makes you predictable and leaves the players unable to make good decisions in broken field play or in later phases of possession, kicking the fucking thing away should be much further down the list than it has been.  On top of that we need to focus on the basics, at club and country level you need 23 players who can all catch and pass, you need most of those 23 to be willing and capable of securing ball at the ruck, if you train without a proper 7 you never learn how to deal with one in a game so lets get a couple of nasty bastards in who do everything to slow the ruck down and kill the ball. Lets concentrate on hookers learning to throw and hook so the set piece is secure enough that we keep our own ball, we don't have to trundle them 5yards back on every scrum.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 05, 2015, 07:41:34 AM
We have problems all over to sort. The front row and back row aren't good enough currently. The centre pairing hasn't worked and we had the wrong fly half starting.

Front Row - Marler can't scrummage, Youngs can't hook, Webber can't hook or throw, Mako can't scrummage.  We're ok on the other side, Cole is a good player and Brookes will be superb by 2019.
Second Row - Parling isn't good enough, We need to get Itoje into the mix, him Lawes and Launchbury are the match day 3.
Back Row - 8 we're fine with Morgan and Billy, add Ewers and the depth is there, we need a proper 7, the experiment has failed so let's get a proper one in.
Half Backs - Ben Youngs has failed in 2 world cups, lets move on, Simpson and Robson should get a chance. Farrell needs to learn how to play 10, there's more to it than kicking from a tee.
Centres - the primary requirement now needs to be a pairing who can both be involved in attacking play, hopefully Burgess will get a year or 2 of playing 12 under his belt and become the player we wanted but for now he needs to go to his club and learn the game. Barritt should be consigned to pile of truly awful centres to have played for England in the last 12 years (jaime fucking noon top of the list).
Outside backs - Brown needs to improve his decision making, he gets caught on his own too often and puts in some god awful kicks, a couple of tries and lots of metres gained can't excuse him of the mistakes he's made int he last 2-3 years.  The wings are ok, lets work out how to get them ball in space (it starts with replacements at 7 and 9).

Coaches - A bit of fitness work and set-piece work is fine, making that your sole focus makes you predictable and leaves the players unable to make good decisions in broken field play or in later phases of possession, kicking the fucking thing away should be much further down the list than it has been.  On top of that we need to focus on the basics, at club and country level you need 23 players who can all catch and pass, you need most of those 23 to be willing and capable of securing ball at the ruck, if you train without a proper 7 you never learn how to deal with one in a game so lets get a couple of nasty bastards in who do everything to slow the ruck down and kill the ball. Lets concentrate on hookers learning to throw and hook so the set piece is secure enough that we keep our own ball, we don't have to trundle them 5yards back on every scrum.

The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 05, 2015, 08:22:50 AM

The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.

The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.

How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 05, 2015, 09:03:40 AM

The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.

The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.

How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.

I assume the second part of your comment is tongue in cheek. He is a phenomenal League player. I feel sorry for him as he has been given no time to bed in at all. I think league forwards have a greater transition time than the backs due to the technical aspect of forward play. To turn a forward into a back only complicates it more.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 05, 2015, 09:24:48 AM

The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.

The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.

How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.

I assume the second part of your comment is tongue in cheek. He is a phenomenal League player. I feel sorry for him as he has been given no time to bed in at all. I think league forwards have a greater transition time than the backs due to the technical aspect of forward play. To turn a forward into a back only complicates it more.

Semi tongue-in-cheek. Based on what I've seen of Burgess playing Union, its difficult for me to see what made him a stand-out League player.

You might of guessed that I'm not a fan of League. I struggle to watch more than a few minutes without yelling "for fecks sake, get up in support of the ball carrier and make yourself available for a pass".
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: JD on October 05, 2015, 09:40:02 AM
The last two games have seen England go back to the dark ages Rugby wise. No flair, predictable, slow at the breakdown and use of the ball and the amount of turnovers they have conceded isn't acceptable at that level.
They seemed to run into dead ends against Aussie and had no clue how to change their game plan. Hooper and Pocock had a field day and showed how it pays to have mobile and quick forwards in a team.
The last couple of days over here have been hell, with the Kiwi's really enjoying England's demise. They can't believe how bad they were.

At least I won't have to get up early to watch any more dire Rugby.
 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 05, 2015, 10:17:22 AM
Changing from an attacking Ford to a pragmatic Farrell ultimately cost us a place in the next round. It's not that Farrell was bad against Wales, it's that it signified that we'd bottled it. We have go back back to moving towards an attacking style and it's critical that we become a lot more streetwise at the breakdown. Also the front row needs a lot of work.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 05, 2015, 10:46:23 AM
Changing from an attacking Ford to a pragmatic Farrell ultimately cost us a place in the next round. It's not that Farrell was bad against Wales, it's that it signified that we'd bottled it. We have go back back to moving towards an attacking style and it's critical that we become a lot more streetwise at the breakdown. Also the front row needs a lot of work.

Farrell didn't make any mistakes and kicked his goals versus Wales, but he created far too little considering our dominance for 60 minutes. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 05, 2015, 01:06:03 PM

The problem with Burgess is at Bath they'd prefer him to be in the back row.

The problem with Burgess is that he doesn't know how to play proper Rugby.

How he became a star in the Northern Game is beyond me.

I assume the second part of your comment is tongue in cheek. He is a phenomenal League player. I feel sorry for him as he has been given no time to bed in at all. I think league forwards have a greater transition time than the backs due to the technical aspect of forward play. To turn a forward into a back only complicates it more.

Semi tongue-in-cheek. Based on what I've seen of Burgess playing Union, its difficult for me to see what made him a stand-out League player.

You might of guessed that I'm not a fan of League. I struggle to watch more than a few minutes without yelling "for fecks sake, get up in support of the ball carrier and make yourself available for a pass".

In league he hits the ball at pace and runs through people, he's also fantastic at off-loading in the tackle.  In union he hasn't got the hang of the timing so he looks lost and people aren't used to the snap offloads so they're not running the lines to make the most of them.  Stupidly the centre who would've worked well with him is the one who he replaced in the squad.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 05, 2015, 02:31:54 PM
Lancaster et al seemed determined to shoehorn Burgess into the squad when it wasn't yet clear whether he could play centre. I have some sympathy for the bloke in the way that he's been switched around between centre and the back row.

I see that he's only 26, so him still being around for 2019 isn't out of the question. Hopefully by then the coaches will have figured out how to make the most of him.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 05, 2015, 09:44:02 PM
It sounds like Lancaster had handed over his team selection to Andy Farrell and led to a big fall out with Catt. Either way, Farrell has to go.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: spangley1812 on October 05, 2015, 10:05:35 PM
I would say is Lancaster good enough to coach NZ, South Africa or Australia........if the answer is no then he isn't good enough for England
and this non-selection of players playing abroad which he himself insisted on has to go
 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: spangley1812 on October 05, 2015, 10:11:20 PM
It sounds like Lancaster had handed over his team selection to Andy Farrell and led to a big fall out with Catt. Either way, Farrell has to go.


The rumours also say that Farrell does all the coaching and Lancaster does not even go onto the training pitch and it does not "sit" well that his son is in the squad
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 06, 2015, 12:38:28 AM
It sounds like Lancaster had handed over his team selection to Andy Farrell and led to a big fall out with Catt. Either way, Farrell has to go.


The rumours also say that Farrell does all the coaching and Lancaster does not even go onto the training pitch and it does not "sit" well that his son is in the squad

All rumours but it wouldn't surprise me if there is a big element of truth in that, we 'look' like a union team being coached like a league team, in the backs it's pretty clear that the coaching is sub-standard because we're only coaching 1-2 phases so anything after that we look lost and become entirely reliant on one of the outside backs doing something amazing.

I also agree on Owen F's place in the squad, his kicking from the tee has disguised how poor a 10 he really is.  It's no mistake that he's only played about 25 games at 10 for sarries and he's been at 13 the rest of the time, he's just not good enough.  I'm also utterly convinced that Burgess being included was Farrells doing.

If you reflect on the 4 years since the last world cup there have been a few heroic backs to the walls victories in the autumn and a couple of 6Ns where we've nearly been good enough but the only time we looked genuinely good enough to compete in this world cup was the Argentina tour, where Farrell and Robshaw were missing (along with a few others, Dickson played 9 and generated lots of quick ball as well) and we had to play a creative 10 and a proper 7 and suddenly everything clicked.  That should've been the blueprint but fear and negativity were always at the heart of the squad so it was always a squad picked to try to keep in touch with the big boys and sneak it rather than dominate.  That mentality needs to go, we're not a bunch of plucky underdogs who are just happy to get a chance to play at the top end, Georgia and Japan have shown that those sides have a lot to offer but a team that's won a world cup and is rarely outside the top 5 in the rankings shouldn't be trying to emulate them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 06, 2015, 02:20:05 PM
What's the talk of a falling out with Catt and where's that coming from?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 06, 2015, 02:30:53 PM
Lancaster has just said 'I believe 100% the group of players at the 6 nations will be the same as what is out there'. That is a seriously worrying statement. How about a specialist 7, Tuilagi and Hartley to name but a few.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 06, 2015, 05:51:50 PM
Lancaster and Farrell have to go. Robshaw needs to be binned as captain as well. It makes him an automatic pick and he isn't good enough.

If we still refuse to change the rules to get Armitage involved then Kvesic has to start at 7 from now on.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 06, 2015, 06:52:41 PM
Lancaster has just said 'I believe 100% the group of players at the 6 nations will be the same as what is out there'. That is a seriously worrying statement. How about a specialist 7, Tuilagi and Hartley to name but a few.

Sounds likea  statement from someone who knows it's going to have fuck all to do with him either way.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 06, 2015, 07:54:32 PM
Lancaster lost his way 2 years ago I think, he cleared out all the dross left behind after Mike Tindall's stag weekend and there was an immediate improvement in both style and results.  But then something happened, he went on the defensive and couldn't decide on his best team, added to that some bizarre selections and changes of heart and mind and we are pretty much where we were 4 years ago less the disciplinary issues that occurred in NZ.  There has been no progress, in fact overall we've gone backwards, you can't argue with that fact, the rankings don't lie and nor does the fact we failed to progress from our group.

For me Lancasters decline and fall can be summed up in one defining moment in the Australia game, bringing on Nick Easter.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 06, 2015, 08:20:35 PM
Lancaster lost his way 2 years ago I think, he cleared out all the dross left behind after Mike Tindall's stag weekend and there was an immediate improvement in both style and results.  But then something happened, he went on the defensive and couldn't decide on his best team, added to that some bizarre selections and changes of heart and mind and we are pretty much where we were 4 years ago less the disciplinary issues that occurred in NZ.  There has been no progress, in fact overall we've gone backwards, you can't argue with that fact, the rankings don't lie and nor does the fact we failed to progress from our group.

For me Lancasters decline and fall can be summed up in one defining moment in the Australia game, bringing on Nick Easter.

I think the clearer summing up was that an injury to May forced him to bring on Ford and suddenly we spent 20minutes looking like we had a chance, before they clocked the fact that if they assumed our centres weren't a threat they could easily close the door.  A forced change that would never have happened otherwise gave us the only period of the game where we looked like a decent side.

For me the point when it became clear we were fucked was when he left Hartley out because he wouldn't be available against Fiji, I think I just wasn't willing to admit it but £5 on Australia to win the tournament and a decision not to take tickets for the Uruguay game when I had the chance (although it was partly down to me supposedly being in Dubai this week which then got cancelled, I'd have been back with loads of time to get there though) showed where my head was. Without Hartley our front 5 just doesn't work, it's not that he is a fantastic player or a nice guy; it's that he makes sure that the 4 guys around him are playing up to the standard he demands.  I have no doubt that Marler (who looked fantastic in the scrum during the 6N) would've got a massive kick up the arse if he scrummaged like he has in the last couple of months with Hartley at his side.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 06, 2015, 08:27:02 PM
The Hartley decision may have been forced on him, old farts in suits and ties at the RFU blocking his inclusion following his ban, you never know.  One that is inexcusable is the omission of Europes best no 10.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 06, 2015, 09:02:42 PM
Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 06, 2015, 09:44:36 PM
Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?

Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 06, 2015, 10:37:50 PM
Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?

Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.

That's a shame.  Anyway, your list of front rowers who can't scrummage - surely that can be coached into them?  Look at Australia with Ledesma and what he's [at least been credited with] doing to their scrum.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 06, 2015, 10:45:18 PM
Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?

Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.

He's now studying wine in France, so no need to be too concerned about his wellbeing.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 07, 2015, 12:10:21 AM
Speaking of the front row, what happened to Andrew Sheridan?

Retired because of a really nasty neck injury.

That's a shame.  Anyway, your list of front rowers who can't scrummage - surely that can be coached into them?  Look at Australia with Ledesma and what he's [at least been credited with] doing to their scrum.

Should be possible, but the front row is a delicate thing, you need to grow a unit of 6-8 front row players who all work well together, I'd start that by getting a hooker who can hook and throw and a 2 props who can scrum straight and low and aren't easily pushed back.

I'd genuinely be looking at taking the entire Saints front row next 6N, Waller, Hartley and Brookes, add Cole, Youngs and Mako and you've got your basic set for matchday.  Hartley probably won't make it to the next world cup so I'd have Cowan-Dickie around to work with and mould into the long-term solution.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 07, 2015, 10:22:06 AM
Shame that Canadia couldn't hang on yesterday. I was quite impressed with them (especially that winger wearing 14) up until they changed their scrum half.

The guy they brought on was rubbish
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 07, 2015, 02:31:47 PM
Little stories coming out of the England camp about disharmony are never encouraging.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 07, 2015, 09:58:51 PM
The latest is that Cipriani and Catt had a bust up after Cipriani found out he wasn't in the final squad.
Other players threatened a revolt.

All rumours at the moment and as you say not very encouraging.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 07, 2015, 10:51:10 PM
I think the revolt was more about Burrell being dropped for Burgess.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 08, 2015, 08:13:44 AM
I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 08, 2015, 08:27:47 AM
Namibia could have beat Georgia if they'd managed to keep 15 (or even just 14) players on the pitch
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 08, 2015, 08:30:09 AM
Its my one and only game this weekend Nippon v American Colonies at Kingsholm

Fickle fan that I am, if Samoa beat Scotland I'll be hoping Japan win and therefore qualify (they deserve to after defeating SA). If Scotland win and there's therefore nothing on the Gloucester game, I'll root for the Colonies
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 08, 2015, 08:31:42 AM
I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.

The problem with a league convert going into the forwards is that they have to learn how to deal with the breakdown very quickly.  Given that is England's weakness I'd want to see him single-handedly demolishing teams before i gave him a shot there at international level.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 08, 2015, 08:57:16 AM
I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.

The problem with a league convert going into the forwards is that they have to learn how to deal with the breakdown very quickly.  Given that is England's weakness I'd want to see him single-handedly demolishing teams before i gave him a shot there at international level.

Oh I wouldn't be rushing him in, I'd give him a whole year playing 6 for Bath to learn the game before he gets back near the England squad. Then he'd have another three years development under his belt after that before the next World Cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 08, 2015, 11:01:08 AM
I reckon Burgess might well become an excellent 6 if he stays in Union.

The problem with a league convert going into the forwards is that they have to learn how to deal with the breakdown very quickly.  Given that is England's weakness I'd want to see him single-handedly demolishing teams before i gave him a shot there at international level.

Oh I wouldn't be rushing him in, I'd give him a whole year playing 6 for Bath to learn the game before he gets back near the England squad. Then he'd have another three years development under his belt after that before the next World Cup.

His coach at Bath (Ford) was very quick to come out and say that he'll be playing flanker next season. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 08, 2015, 06:10:06 PM
If he can learn the breakdown he would be a great 6. Stick Kvesic the other side and that is a very different back row proposition.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 09, 2015, 08:50:36 AM
What with the Celts obsession with everything England especially these last few weeks, as much as it hurts every fibre in my body I'd just like to wish Australia all the best this weekend but even more I'd like SA to utterly humilate them the following week. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 09, 2015, 09:09:26 AM
I have money on Australia, so I probably want them to win. But ultimately I'm now a southern hemisphere fan in this World Cup, as I just don't want any of the northern hemisphere teams to win, especially Wales. I really dislike Wales style of Rugby.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 09, 2015, 10:21:39 AM
I have money on Australia, so I probably want them to win. But ultimately I'm now a southern hemisphere fan in this World Cup, as I just don't want any of the northern hemisphere teams to win, especially Wales. I really dislike Wales style of Rugby.

Australia, South Africa, France in that order.  Fuck the Irish and the Welsh and double fucks to the Kiwis, the cheating fuckers.  I also have money on Australia.  I'd accept France winning because maybe England would then realise that it's the highest standard league in the world (not the best, the English league is much better to watch) and we really shouldn't have a problem picking players from there.  I'd also like to see the northern hemisphere start to even up the split of trophies.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: dave shelley on October 09, 2015, 11:31:20 AM
My daughter informed me a couple of weeks ago that her husband had been given two tickets for the Ireland France match in Cardiff.  She told me today that the value of the tickets were £250 each, corporate I would imagine.  She told me today that they can't go, for several reasons, one being that the kids are unwell with Chickenpox, they couldn't get accommodation and the logistics staying elsewhere were very difficult.  She was to be seated next to Ed Sheerin apparently, she's gutted.  Hubby handed the tickets back.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 09, 2015, 12:10:52 PM
Have been avoiding looking at the squad for tomorrow for as long as possible but I couldn't stop myself any more:

BACKS Alex Goode; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Owen Farrell, Jack Nowell; George Ford, Danny Care.

FORWARDS Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Joe Launchbury, Geoff Parling, James Haskell, Chris Robshaw (capt), Nick Easter.

Replacements Jamie George, Joe Marler, David Wilson, George Kruis, Tom Wood, Richard Wigglesworth, Jonathan Joseph, Mike Brown.

So nothing on the line in a game where we should be looking at 50+ points and he still feels the need to pick Farrell, choosing to drop Joseph instead and continue with an inside centre who can't fucking pass.  The sooner this chancer fucks off back to teaching history the better.

I see also that Jim Mallinder has put himself forward for the job in a 'at some point in the future' manner, if we're going English then he's genuinely the only decent option so I'm happy to see that he's not ruling it out, he's a coach who understands the need for quick ball so I suspect we'd see a proper 7 and 9, 10 and 12 who can pass the fucking thing.  I also think the Sarries obsession would ease off which can only be good for the game, I don't care if they won the league, they did it by having a big pack, picking tacklers in the centres and kicking the ball to the wings, it's not a tactic that will ever work at international level, you need to have a threat through the middle or you become predictable.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on October 09, 2015, 03:04:25 PM
Totally agree, Farrell at 12 is a baffling selection, Slade & JJ would have made more sense. Would have liked to have seen Watson switched to full-back. And it would have been a good opportunity to try Burgess at 6.

And yes, I really wanted Mallinder to get the job last time and I see no reason to change that view.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 10, 2015, 02:58:31 PM
Brilliant 20minutes from Samoa, ripping the Scots to Ribbons.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 10, 2015, 02:59:42 PM
The Scots are so sluggish. Samoa have so much pace and direction, Scotland are flat-footed and disorganised.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 10, 2015, 03:00:08 PM
Brilliant 20minutes from Samoa, ripping the Scots to Ribbons.

Come on Samoa, would love Japan to make it through.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 10, 2015, 03:10:14 PM
Brilliant 20minutes from Samoa, ripping the Scots to Ribbons.

Come on Samoa, would love Japan to make it through.

Scots down to 14, to compound the disadvantage they already had of playing in Macron shirts.  Like to see Samoa put more than a score between them and Scotland before HT, because I fancy the Scots will be much stronger as the game wears on.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 10, 2015, 03:16:57 PM
The Scots are so sluggish. Samoa have so much pace and direction, Scotland are flat-footed and disorganised.

The problem is Samoa are so expansive that they're leaving holes. It's making a great game though.

Pisi x2 and lee-lo have been brilliant in the midfield.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 10, 2015, 03:22:14 PM
Have to say the Scottish coach looks much better on Celebrity Juice.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 10, 2015, 07:03:59 PM
Good.

15 v 13 and you still can't score.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 10, 2015, 07:22:02 PM
Wales vs Aus is like us vs ManUre.  Even if all the cards fall their way, they still find a way to screw it up.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 10, 2015, 08:00:25 PM
I can see Oz winning the WC. So good defensively today .
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 10, 2015, 08:31:17 PM
I can see Oz winning the WC. So good defensively today .

I put a tenner on that just before they beat the kiwis.  I think it was 10/1, so I'd be delighted if they did win.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: dave shelley on October 11, 2015, 06:14:58 PM
A real tough game of Rugby going on in Cardiff.  Ireland suffering injuries to key players. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Ger Regan on October 11, 2015, 06:44:28 PM
Great game, real guts from Ireland, a real shame about O'Connell, I'd be surprised if he makes next weekend.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: dave shelley on October 11, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
Tremendous display by the Irish, I feared for them at half time.  Great support too. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 11, 2015, 07:25:07 PM
Very impressive from Ireland.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: spangley1812 on October 11, 2015, 07:40:29 PM
Very good from Ireland......lets hope the injuries and possible suspension don't cost them
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 11, 2015, 07:53:09 PM
Watched the 2nd half in a bar near Kingsholm. Great performance by Ireland
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 11, 2015, 08:32:55 PM
Nice that Gloucester Council have decided to close the fanzine after today's game because a few publicans have moaned about loss of earnings. Typical small-minded outlook.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 11, 2015, 10:23:49 PM
I thought as good as Ireland were France were very poor. I'd expect the last 4 to be Australia, France, Ireland, South Africa
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 12, 2015, 08:12:49 AM
I'm hoping the last 4 is Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Argentina.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 12, 2015, 11:31:50 AM
The American Colonies are crap at catching and passing. They were fine last night when they just ran with the ball but anything else was a struggle.

Japan only won 28-18 but it was more comfortable than the score suggests
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 12, 2015, 11:58:46 AM
The American Colonies are crap at catching and passing. They were fine last night when they just ran with the ball but anything else was a struggle.

Japan only won 28-18 but it was more comfortable than the score suggests

Robshaw and Haskell were hardly proficient against Uruguay.  It's pretty embarrassing that a 37 year old who was there as cover after a couple of weeks as a pundit was so far ahead of the other 2 in the back row in terms of basic catching and passing.  I'll just about let props who can't pass get away with it if they're fantastic in the scrum and can smash through tackles at the fringes but the rest of the pack have to be willing and able to join the line and be involved in backs moves.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 12, 2015, 12:06:43 PM
Aussies reckon getting t the final shouldn't be too hard from here. To be fair, I think they've looked the best allround side so far.

They're desperately hoping France do their usual job on the Kiwi's.


Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 12, 2015, 12:36:38 PM
Aussies reckon getting t the final shouldn't be too hard from here. To be fair, I think they've looked the best allround side so far.

They're desperately hoping France do their usual job on the Kiwi's.




France will be a tough game for the kiwi's because they've had a pathetically easy ride this far and France are coming in off a really tough game and will know they need to up it a couple of levels.

I bet on Australia at the start and I've seen nothing to suggest that wasn't a really good use of the money.  Right now I'd be going for Oz vs SA in the final.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: JD on October 13, 2015, 08:18:45 AM
Aussies reckon getting t the final shouldn't be too hard from here. To be fair, I think they've looked the best allround side so far.

They're desperately hoping France do their usual job on the Kiwi's.




France will be a tough game for the kiwi's because they've had a pathetically easy ride this far and France are coming in off a really tough game and will know they need to up it a couple of levels.

I bet on Australia at the start and I've seen nothing to suggest that wasn't a really good use of the money.  Right now I'd be going for Oz vs SA in the final.

Unfortunately I think NZ will step up a few gears this weekend and will smash France (be funny if France won though the country would go into melt down).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Ger Regan on October 13, 2015, 01:39:24 PM
A sad ending to Paul O'Connell's superb international career.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: dave shelley on October 13, 2015, 01:46:51 PM
Yes, he deserved a more fitting exit.  Ireland will miss him but, such is sport that both Brian O'Driscoll and Ronan O'Gara hardly seemed to have been missed at all.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 14, 2015, 09:32:25 PM
Yes, he deserved a more fitting exit.  Ireland will miss him but, such is sport that both Brian O'Driscoll and Ronan O'Gara hardly seemed to have been missed at all.

Because it happened on half time we - the TV viewing public - missed a huge ovation in the stadium (apparently).  They mentioned it during the half time commentary if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 15, 2015, 12:42:53 PM
Tyler Morgan picked by Wales for the QF.

Makes sense, since James Hook can cover more positions from the bench.

My cousin was having a coffee with Ty's dad when he got the text from his son to say he was playing. Father is a bit pleased.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 16, 2015, 08:45:25 AM
If your from the Forest, everyone is your cousin?!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 17, 2015, 04:44:03 PM
I really dislike Wales.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 17, 2015, 05:37:56 PM
Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 17, 2015, 05:47:20 PM
That's [iss poor from the blindside winger, terrible decision to go in and leave that massive gap, has probably cost them a semi-final place there.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 17, 2015, 06:00:34 PM
Get in delighted with that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 17, 2015, 07:01:27 PM
Good. Welshists can all shut the fuck up again and go back to singing and sheep worrying.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 17, 2015, 08:33:59 PM
The French are taking a beating here
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 17, 2015, 09:02:24 PM
McCaw is the wrong side at every fucking opportunity.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:06:05 PM
If your from the Forest, everyone is your cousin?!

Careful, Leeg is on the warpath about incorrect use of You're and Your

Whilst in theory, your assertion isn't far wrong, the coffee was being drunk in Newport
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:07:06 PM
Just got in in time to see the first half highlights; what a pass from Dan Carter
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: curiousorange on October 17, 2015, 09:11:36 PM
I've been under the impression that because of a weak group, the All Blacks really aren't all that. But they are, aren't they? They're only in second or third gear here.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:11:53 PM
[/Nigel Owens]I don't see a punch, I just see a fist to the face[Nigel Owens]

Even when McCaw is pinged for being offside, a French guy's non-punch punch means he gets away with it
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: four fornicholl on October 17, 2015, 09:15:06 PM
don't really do rugby but the all backs are quite good aren't they?

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: curiousorange on October 17, 2015, 09:17:14 PM
The pundit had a little dig earlier when one of the others got called for being off his feet. The commentator mentioned something about his invisible cloak and the pundit said, 'yeah, he's turned to McCaw and asked him how you do it properly.'
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 17, 2015, 09:17:38 PM
don't really do rugby but the all backs are quite good aren't they?
They're okay
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:24:02 PM
Beeb 5 have Andrew Mehrtens in the commentary team. I think he's an excellent summariser
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:24:35 PM
For a RWC quarter final, this is a hammering
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 17, 2015, 09:26:45 PM
Well, could well be no NH teams left in the competition by Monday morning.

Here's hoping, seeing as I want Ireland and Scotland to lose.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: silhillvilla on October 17, 2015, 09:28:08 PM
Almost as one sided as last years FA Cup Final
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:28:18 PM
Well, could well be no NH teams left in the competition by Monday morning.

Here's hoping, seeing as I want Ireland and Scotland to lose.

I can't see Argentina beating Ireland
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 17, 2015, 09:30:10 PM
BTW can anyone give me a non-conspiratorial reason why Offside McCaw seemingly gets away with so much more than other players?  Does he really infringe so much, or do we assume he does because it's him?  And if he does, why do refs not call it?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 17, 2015, 09:31:11 PM
Savea is some player.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: curiousorange on October 17, 2015, 09:31:27 PM
I don't mind Ireland or Scotland. I don't really have a problem with Wales, but it was absurd how many fake Welshmen came out of the woodwork after the England win. They managed to turn what was a narrow, fairly jammy victory into an utter hiding. For that alone, I was happy with the Saffers doing them over.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 17, 2015, 09:32:47 PM
Well, could well be no NH teams left in the competition by Monday morning.

Here's hoping, seeing as I want Ireland and Scotland to lose.

I can't see Argentina beating Ireland

I dunno, I think they have a chance.  Although I don't remember how seeing how they generally handle catching Garryowens.  But they have a good pack and some skillful backs.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 17, 2015, 09:33:46 PM
France are being very French at the moment
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 17, 2015, 09:34:06 PM
At 55-13 with 12 minutes to go this is getting embarrassing for the French.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 17, 2015, 09:34:24 PM
The one thing worse than the Globetrotters running riot is the needless fawning of the non-NZ commentators.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: curiousorange on October 17, 2015, 09:34:28 PM
This is absurd. Rugby from another planet.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 17, 2015, 09:39:55 PM
France are being very French at the moment

Nah, in the old days the French would now start punching.  Both the opposition and their own team mates.

Even though I'm English, I don't like the French being a laughing stock.  Things were much more interesting when they played with flair and were a genuine threat - when they weren't turning on each other.  Brian Moore probably thinks otherwise though. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 17, 2015, 09:43:02 PM
This is absurd. Rugby from another planet.

I would still fancy Australia vs the ABs though.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: curiousorange on October 17, 2015, 09:47:14 PM
Yeah, still fancy the Aussies. They've played the most tactically aware rugby.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 17, 2015, 10:19:17 PM
That was a serious statement by the All Blacks.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 17, 2015, 10:29:43 PM
A French side with flair is good for rugby, they need to find their soul again.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dave Cooper please on October 17, 2015, 11:56:19 PM
Is this thing still going on, it feels like months since it started.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 12:36:12 AM
Well a month. It's no different from
football really and it's been brilliantly supported.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 18, 2015, 01:05:05 AM
BTW can anyone give me a non-conspiratorial reason why Offside McCaw seemingly gets away with so much more than other players?  Does he really infringe so much, or do we assume he does because it's him?  And if he does, why do refs not call it?

I can't give a reason but I can say with a huge degree of certainty (I played back row for 11 years at a good standard) that he really does infringe that much. Counting the rucks he enters legally is a lot easier anr he has an interpretation of the offside rule that is uniquely his.  I didn't watch tonight because we had a guest, they'd happily have had it on but I get ranty if I watch them so i decided it was best to give it a miss.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 09:32:33 AM
Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.

They weren't Welsh.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 12:55:18 PM
Although Ireland will start as favourites it will be interesting to see who Argentina do. Playing with the southern hemisphere big 3 as undoubtedly helped them develop quicker, I still see them as a northern hemisphere style team playing in the southern hemisphere. Clearly the loss of key personnel means they aren't the same threat they were a few years ago, but against what's seen as a decent northern hemisphere side, will their natural game honed against better teams be a leveller?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 01:01:51 PM
You have to say,whichever sport you may like or dislike,that there is nowhere else you see a national anthem sung more passionately from players and crowd than at an international rubgy union game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 01:02:28 PM
Come on the pumas!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 18, 2015, 01:04:35 PM
Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.

They weren't Welsh.

I know, they were mostly Brummies. And there's no 'u' in Rorke's Drift.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 01:05:53 PM
Brilliant start from Argentina.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 01:09:39 PM
Lovely stuff.  Still can't get used to this new Argentina though, throwing the ball wide, playing expansively.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 01:11:59 PM
Lovely stuff.  Still can't get used to this new Argentina though, throwing the ball wide, playing expansively.

Scrum's still the same as it ever was though!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 01:13:18 PM
They are on fire!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 01:20:11 PM
Tommy Bowe going off would be a huge loss - it limits their "Gaelic football" tactic of the hanging kick to the wing.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 01:36:57 PM
That was not smart from Cordero, that little chip kick when you're down to 14.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 01:47:08 PM
Ireland shown enough past few minutes to suggest they're far from out of it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 02:13:28 PM
Shit :-(
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 02:32:08 PM
Penalties are going to cost the Pumas the game.  They should never have shown the Irish any chink of light.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 18, 2015, 02:44:50 PM
brilliant finish
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 02:52:31 PM
The Pumas back three are serious players.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 18, 2015, 03:07:33 PM
Loved seeing the Irish get stuffed, can't stand them when it comes to rugby and especially O'Connell who is an arrogant nasty bit of work
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 04:01:00 PM
Welshmen haven't put in this much effort in defence against South Africans since Rourke's Drift.

They weren't Welsh.

I know, they were mostly Brummies. And there's no 'u' in Rorke's Drift.

It does look better with a 'u' in. Don't know why!

Anyway, come on Scotland.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 04:05:52 PM
Come on Scotland!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 04:14:09 PM
Argentina's development is incredible. They've also shown why England must play Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 moving forward.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 04:22:53 PM
Argentina's development is incredible. They've also shown why England must play Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 moving forward.

They've shown what happens when you have natural talent and then play the top teams regularly in competitive rugby.

Unfortunately for the 6N teams, we only get to play the top teams in competitive games every 4 years at the WC.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 04:36:57 PM
It's good of Australia to only play well against us.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 18, 2015, 04:40:00 PM
If only Scotland could move the ball faster......
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 04:44:46 PM
Foley has been bloody terrible today.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:02:58 PM
Southern Hemisphere referee doing his best for the Aussies here.

Nonsense yellow card.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:03:35 PM
Congratulations ref.

Just the two tries he's scored for them so far. One more for the hat-trick.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 05:06:57 PM
Harsh sin binning.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 18, 2015, 05:14:00 PM
Argentina's development is incredible. They've also shown why England must play Ford and Slade at 10 and 12 moving forward.

Things could develop further as they're getting a team in the Super Rugby next season (with Japan too).  This club could basically be a feeder team for the international squad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Super_Rugby_team
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 05:22:25 PM
Foley has been fucking woeful.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:28:42 PM
I think that's the game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 18, 2015, 05:30:52 PM
I think that's the game.

Not yet
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 18, 2015, 05:31:52 PM
Yes it's gone however good performance by Scotland as I expected another NZ v Fra!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 05:34:14 PM
Scotland have been great and have shown how desperate England were.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 05:37:52 PM
Dear oh dear
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 18, 2015, 05:38:17 PM
OMG brilliant another Aussie mistake 32-34
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 05:38:31 PM
God almighty that was terrible from Australia.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 05:39:33 PM
Hahaha!  Come on!  Just 7 mins to hold on now
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:40:51 PM
Please please please please please please please hang on!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 05:40:56 PM
even the Gods are favouring Scotland as it starts to piss it down.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:43:04 PM
Shit.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:44:19 PM
Gutted.

:,-(
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 18, 2015, 05:45:15 PM
unlucky. Threw it away.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 18, 2015, 05:45:34 PM
Terrible bad luck. Once again Aussies get lucky.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 05:45:38 PM
Flukey Aussie gits
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 05:45:58 PM
We battered them in the seventy minutes that the referee didn't decide to reduce us to fourteen men for no particular reason.

Potentially two tries from knock-ons too.

Every team I want to win is cursed!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 05:46:21 PM
What was the penalty for anyway?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 18, 2015, 05:46:47 PM
Bad mistake on the line out, shit shit shit sin binning decision, that's what did it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 18, 2015, 05:48:44 PM
agreed, terrible decision for the sin-binning which made a big difference.  I'm normally supportive of the official in rugby but I think a few of them have had a truly terrible tournament this time round.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Meanwood Villa on October 18, 2015, 05:51:00 PM
I'm really, really gutted. Which has surprised me.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 18, 2015, 05:55:06 PM
Joubert on a par with Roland.

Boo fucking hoo.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 18, 2015, 05:58:52 PM
6 nations should be good next year.  I mean that genuinely.
England/France will be starting from scratch but with a great mass of players, whereas the other teams look more established.

Collectively they've all got to try new things as the southern hemisphere have the clean sweep of semi spots.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 06:04:35 PM
Scotland will still fuck up the Six Nations, they always do.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 18, 2015, 06:04:42 PM
Well, one thing the SH doesn't do well is produce good refs.  I complain every year about the 6N being polluted by SH refs - what business do they have there?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 06:34:02 PM
Never heard of that. Do Europeans referee Four Nations matches?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 18, 2015, 06:44:18 PM
Never heard of that. Do Europeans referee Four Nations matches?

Richie McCaw referees the NZ games.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 07:00:09 PM
I normally think Joubert is alright. I think some of the reactions to the ref from former Scottish pros is well over the top. I get fans getting over emotional, but if you're working for the media you should be able to retain some sense of control
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 18, 2015, 07:10:49 PM
The yellow card was iffy. Penalty for a late shot on Hogg on 76 hasn't been picked up. Plus the winning penalty.

The Sweaties have plenty to be pissed off about.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 18, 2015, 07:13:57 PM
I agree, but those Scots working in the media should have more professionalism. Referring to the referee as a 'numpty' is out of order.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 07:25:58 PM
I'd say it's pretty conservative. They should have been more critical of the cheating bastard.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 18, 2015, 07:28:36 PM
Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: spangley1812 on October 18, 2015, 07:32:04 PM
Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.

He couldn't refer the last penalty apparently as it wasn't foul play or have anything to do with a try
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 18, 2015, 07:32:34 PM
I ended up supporting a team I don't like so well did the Jocks play. The ref fucked them over.

And so.....Come on you Puma's!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 18, 2015, 07:43:14 PM
Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.

He couldn't refer the last penalty apparently as it wasn't foul play or have anything to do with a try

He could've reviewed their tries though. Or just, you know, actually bothered to pay attention to see if there was a forward pass.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: richard moore on October 18, 2015, 08:11:48 PM
Never heard of that. Do Europeans referee Four Nations matches?

Richie McCaw referees the NZ games.

He looks a bit like Steven Gerrard as well
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 18, 2015, 08:30:03 PM
Well the best 4 teams are through to the semi finals.

I reckon the saffers and in all probability the Aussies are the 2 teams most likely to overturn NZ.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 18, 2015, 09:02:14 PM
By the way, not sure if was shown on TV but the ref absolutely legged it down the tunnel at the final whistle without bothering to shake hands or wait for his touch judges. Chicken shit that he is.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 18, 2015, 09:34:44 PM
Having calmed down a bit, I still think there's absolutely no excuse for either of the decisions - the sin-binning was clearly wrong, and not to refer a big scramble like that upstairs at such a crucial time was, well, shall we call it 'hubristic'? It's gutting.

He couldn't refer the last penalty apparently as it wasn't foul play or have anything to do with a try

He could've reviewed their tries though. Or just, you know, actually bothered to pay attention to see if there was a forward pass.

In his defence (and trust me that difficult as he's a prize twat) you can only refer for a forward pass if one of the other officials has indicated it's worth checking, otherwise how far back do you go looking for an infringement?  I'd be more concerned that forward passes just don't seem to be called on the field anything like often enough, for which you can blame the aussies, their flat backline  in the 90s prompted the changes to that law which have made it too open to interpretation and now a lot of officials are scared to make the call on them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 18, 2015, 09:40:55 PM
So, who gets the final ?

It's between Wayne and Nigel for me
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on October 19, 2015, 10:14:37 AM
So, who gets the final ?

It's between Wayne and Nigel for me

Go on then, I'll give it a go  :)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on October 19, 2015, 10:24:40 AM
Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 19, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something

Not true apparently. Someone in frustration next to the tunnel dropped a plastic bottle onto the ground - well after Joubert had slunk away.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on October 19, 2015, 10:41:20 AM
Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something

Not true apparently. Someone in frustration next to the tunnel dropped a plastic bottle onto the ground - well after Joubert had slunk away.

Dropped a bottle in frustration?  you mean chucked a bottle?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 19, 2015, 10:42:17 AM
Bottle chucked at the ref after the Scotland game. Has that ever happened in an international football match in this country? Fart lighters dragging the game's image into the gutter. Bet it was an empty Chablis bottle or something

Not true apparently. Someone in frustration next to the tunnel dropped a plastic bottle onto the ground - well after Joubert had slunk away.

Dropped a bottle in frustration?  you mean chucked a bottle?

Chucked at the ground, if you like. It appears that either the ground was the target or he had very bad aim if he was going for the referee, given he had been inside for a few minutes.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on October 19, 2015, 11:00:46 AM
Brian Moore tweeted that he saw a full pint chucked on to the pitch as well.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 19, 2015, 12:58:31 PM
Can't have been one of the Scotland fans if it was full.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 19, 2015, 01:43:21 PM
Nice article on the Pumas here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34567873

I think Australia is a game too far for them but look forward to them adding to the pool of quality international teams in the future.  ...and Buenos Aires as a an away trip would be fantastic!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 19, 2015, 01:48:38 PM
If Australia play like they did yesterday then Argentina will be a step too far for them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 19, 2015, 02:46:30 PM
Rumours that RFU have asked IRFU about the buyout of Joe Schmidt from his contract.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 19, 2015, 06:08:28 PM
Fuck that. He presides over their functional up and under shit.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 19, 2015, 07:36:59 PM
So the fate of Lancaster is to be decided by Ian, Ian, Ian, Ian and Ben...

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-names-review-panel/

I can accept 4 of them but why the fuck is Ian Ritchie included in a review that, fundamentally, is deciding whether he can continue in his own job (given he's on record as saying England not winning this world cup would be his responsibility).  I'd have liked them to get someone a little more 'progressive' involved in the review in his place, maybe even a foreign influence for a bit of balance.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Ger Regan on October 19, 2015, 07:41:25 PM
2 Six Nations, 2 heineken cups, a Pro 12, European Challenge Cup and a Top 14 (albeit as assistant coach). I really don't think England are in any position to get sniffy about a coach with that sort of pedigree. He's got a tiny pool of players to work with in ireland, so it's not surprising that he's gone for a brand of rugby that suits them, I think he'd have the versatility to get any team playing to their particular strengths. I'm not convinced that he'd take the job, mind.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 19, 2015, 07:53:20 PM
So the fate of Lancaster is to be decided by Ian, Ian, Ian, Ian and Ben...

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-names-review-panel/

I can accept 4 of them but why the fuck is Ian Ritchie included in a review that, fundamentally, is deciding whether he can continue in his own job (given he's on record as saying England not winning this world cup would be his responsibility).  I'd have liked them to get someone a little more 'progressive' involved in the review in his place, maybe even a foreign influence for a bit of balance.

Mcgechan, in spite of his status, is an odd one. He was part of the team who picked Lancaster.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 19, 2015, 08:25:43 PM
I still believe that the choice of Lancaster, much like Villa with Sherwood, was the easiest option so they just ran with it.  I've said it a few times I think there's a lot of similarities between the problem at Villa and England rugby.  There's loads of potential but it needs a manager who can work with the players to bring that out and in both cases they had an initially popular manager whose reputation took such a battering that 'anyone but him' became appealing so a quick and easy replacement was put in and saw promising early results only to completely collapse when the pressure came on.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 19, 2015, 08:35:54 PM
Joubert decision wrong say World Rugby, that's his career over then.

Shame the FA don't do rulings on referees following their fuck ups.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 19, 2015, 08:38:48 PM
Garces and Barnes have the semi finals, so I expect that means Nigel has the final
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Ger Regan on October 19, 2015, 09:08:50 PM
I still believe that the choice of Lancaster, much like Villa with Sherwood, was the easiest option so they just ran with it.  I've said it a few times I think there's a lot of similarities between the problem at Villa and England rugby.  There's loads of potential but it needs a manager who can work with the players to bring that out and in both cases they had an initially popular manager whose reputation took such a battering that 'anyone but him' became appealing so a quick and easy replacement was put in and saw promising early results only to completely collapse when the pressure came on.
As a matter of interest, who do you think would suit the role? I'm not a big rugby fan, but I can't think of (m)any english coaches that would be equipped for the role. Would you look abroad?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 19, 2015, 09:18:41 PM
I'm honestly not sure, I think Mallinder has his eye on the job and he's the best English option.  Abroad it gets more difficult, I think I'd wait until after the world cup to make a decision right now.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 19, 2015, 09:29:43 PM
So the fate of Lancaster is to be decided by Ian, Ian, Ian, Ian and Ben...

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-names-review-panel/

I can accept 4 of them but why the fuck is Ian Ritchie included in a review that, fundamentally, is deciding whether he can continue in his own job (given he's on record as saying England not winning this world cup would be his responsibility).  I'd have liked them to get someone a little more 'progressive' involved in the review in his place, maybe even a foreign influence for a bit of balance.

Mcgechan, in spite of his status, is an odd one. He was part of the team who picked Lancaster.


I think Earl Warren must be unavailable.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 20, 2015, 10:03:35 AM
I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.

I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Monty on October 20, 2015, 10:08:14 AM
I agree Paul. It's fine to criticise him a bit for the decision (and what's-his-name in the TMO for the sin-binning, as Joubert initially saw nothing wrong with that), but it has gone a bit mad, conspiracy theories and so on.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on October 20, 2015, 10:19:46 AM
I agree Paul. It's fine to criticise him a bit for the decision (and what's-his-name in the TMO for the sin-binning, as Joubert initially saw nothing wrong with that), but it has gone a bit mad, conspiracy theories and so on.

For all the ex pros blathering on about how the whole thing was disgraceful, and going against the "rugby ethos" is pretty ironic.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 20, 2015, 11:57:53 AM
I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.

I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.

He's got away with only being slagged off for one decision. The Aussies scored two tries which could've been knock-ons and he booked a guy for nothing. If that's a "deliberate knock-on" then it would be every single time somebody attempted to intercept the ball but failed to catch cleanly.

The penalty at the end I can forgive. The sheer number of fuck-ups made is shameful.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 20, 2015, 12:06:55 PM
The binning for the deliberate knock on was down to the TMO. Joubert was just going to give a scrum, which would have been the correct decision. Yes, the bloke went for the ball with only one hand but you can't always use two. Its not as if he swatted the ball forward just as an opposition player was about to receive a try scoring pass (it looked like there was defensive cover to me).

I was reading earlier in the RWC that TMO's have certain words that they use to tell the ref that he should make a certain decision.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: OzVilla on October 20, 2015, 12:17:49 PM
Not seen the game/decisions but you just know the Ref had a shocker when the most one eyed Aussie TV sports anchors admit they got lucky.  Even Mrs Ozvilla did a double take!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 20, 2015, 12:31:33 PM
I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.

I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.

He's got away with only being slagged off for one decision. The Aussies scored two tries which could've been knock-ons and he booked a guy for nothing. If that's a "deliberate knock-on" then it would be every single time somebody attempted to intercept the ball but failed to catch cleanly.

The penalty at the end I can forgive. The sheer number of fuck-ups made is shameful.

For the yellow card, I thought it was harsh, I'd have given a penalty but not the yellow card.  My reasoning is, if you're trying to catch the ball in that situation you get a hand under it the ball goes up before going to ground, that didn't happen so I don't buy the idea that he was trying to catch it, he was stopping the ball going beyond him and hoping he'd get a chance to catch and counter, that's a different thing.  At this point it's a yellow card in every way, however I also think he had his hand out long before the pass was thrown and it was thrown deliberately to 'tempt' him to bat it away and for that reason I'd scale it back to a penalty.

The 2 knock on tries I'm not even sure which you're talking about, I've watched every try and the one I'd call most controversial was the first scottish try which I've seen given as side entry plenty of times because the centre doesn't come in through the 'gate'.

I think the penalty at the end is wrong and the yellow card is harsh (but understandable) so I think the degree of criticism is actually a bit over the top.  This is watching it back with fresh eyes though, at the time I thought he'd been horribly biased.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 20, 2015, 12:33:55 PM
I think if you look at the player's hand his fingers are facing back towards his own try line so he's trying to scoop and catch the ball. If he was deliberately knocking on, he'd have had an open palm or fingers facing the other way.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 20, 2015, 01:30:27 PM
The path of the ball is the main decider though really, when it goes to ground like that you get done for intentional knock-on.  As I say, I think it was harsh and a penalty (or maybe a penalty try, not sure how much cover there was behind) would've been sufficient but it's far from the worst mistake I've seen in this world cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 20, 2015, 01:34:10 PM
I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.

I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.

I agree.  How is it being reported elsewhere in the world?

I suspect that a fair chunk of the hysteria is because they want to keep the RWC in the news.  ITV will be desperate for ratings and I'd guess there's no shortage of typically underworked experts that are taking advantage of the publicity. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 20, 2015, 01:36:32 PM
I think World Rugby releasing the statement they made about Joubert is just shocking. It was a mistake made without the benefit of a load of replays, and for which the rules do not allow a referral to a TMO. It's unfortunate it was at a key moment of the game, but there's no way he should be getting the flack he is. I notice there hasn't been much mention of the very slight knock-on from Genia which he did spot and check to prevent Scotland going further behind.

I understand it's frustrating, but the criticism has got way out of hand. It's always easy to make these decisions based on loads of replays from different angles. But you can't be referring every decision or the game would go on for about a week.

He's got away with only being slagged off for one decision. The Aussies scored two tries which could've been knock-ons and he booked a guy for nothing. If that's a "deliberate knock-on" then it would be every single time somebody attempted to intercept the ball but failed to catch cleanly.

The penalty at the end I can forgive. The sheer number of fuck-ups made is shameful.

The reaction and being hung out to dry by his bosses is still out of order. Thing is with those types of knock ons it's a very fine line, because it's also very easy to stick your hand out and claiming you're trying to catch the ball without having much change of catching it. I didn't agree with that decision, but I wonder what the reaction would have been if it had been the Australian winger who had been sin binned.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on October 20, 2015, 10:32:53 PM
If the boot had been on the other foot would the Scots be complaining?
I haven't heard them moaning about when their prop conned the ref into thinking Australia collapsed the scrum to get penalties which were thus kicked!!!
The TV panel agreed these scrum collapses were not penalties against Australia, the Scottish pundit even laughed and said 'it's not a penalty, but, we'll still take it'
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on October 20, 2015, 10:34:37 PM
Excellent piece by Lewis Moody,

I am very surprised how the rugby world has reacted to Craig Joubert. Some of the criticism is crazy. Yes the decision to run of field was a strange one but until we know why let's not jump to conclusions.

Ultimately he Is not allowed to consult the TMO on these matters the rules prevent it. The reality is a Scottish player knocked it on and a Scottish player in front played it. Penalty!

In my opinion Phipps didn't play the ball it mealy bounced of him.

The best case for Scotland could have been a scrum to Australia that is if Joubert had in deed been allowed by the rules to consult the TMO. However I feel the TMO still would have awarded the penalty.

The sad reality is in knock out rugby you have to nail your basics had Scotland who had been outstanding for 78 mins hit the easy throw In the rain and not stretched the jumper on a long throw the game probably would have been there's.

By missing the jumper they put the decision out of there hands.

Let's hold our selves to higher standards in rugby and not jump on the easy band wagon of criticising the ref who like all of us is only human and trying to officiate what was an incredible game of rugby.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 22, 2015, 03:17:01 PM
Bloody stupid time to be kicking off the RWC semis.

Saturday's starts at around half time of the Villa game. Sunday's starts during the NFL at Wemberleee.

Its almost as if they didn't take my whereabouts into consideration
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 22, 2015, 07:50:55 PM
I've lost interest anyway. If they're going to fix it so that Australia make it through they may as well kick off at Melbourne time.

(Still bitter)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 22, 2015, 08:00:50 PM
I've lost interest anyway. If they're going to fix it so that Australia make it through they may as well kick off at Melbourne time.

(Still bitter)

You've got it all wrong. When talking football with jocks they revel in their ability to fuck it up. Seriously, if you were in a qualifying group with Andorra, Lapland, and Melchester Rovers you'd find a way to fuck it up. Its shaped you as people. You should be happy and congratulate your brethren from somehow  managing to truly show what it is to be Scottish, to always fuck it up no matter how hard you try.

And I mean that with the utmost respect. I thought I'd want you to lose, and I did, until the end seeing the effort that you'd put in and that you might pull it off and I wanted you to do it. Joubert aside all it took was to catch your own line-out. You didn't and the whole Joubert thing should never have even been allowed to have happened.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 22, 2015, 08:25:52 PM
The Scottish Rugby Team tend to do okay at World Cups. Only one Group Stage elimination in all the competitions. It's the football team that always find a way to fuck things up.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 22, 2015, 10:07:17 PM
God almighty I just saw a rumour linking Gatland with England. No fucking thank you.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on October 23, 2015, 08:21:23 PM
The Scottish Rugby Team tend to do okay at World Cups. Only one Group Stage elimination in all the competitions. It's the football team that always find a way to fuck things up.



Really? How many times have they won it? Record against the tri nations? I guess it depends what your definition of success is, beating Samoa?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 23, 2015, 11:50:03 PM
They're not brilliant but that doesn't make them bottlers as Peter W suggested. Beating Samoa, finishing second in the group and being very unlucky not to beat Australia is far better than losing all six games, even against Italy, in the Six Nations.

They've never done badly or lost to an embarassing team in the World Cup but have lost to Italy in the 6N loads of times.

Hence they do well in the World Cup, given the restraints of general shiteness.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 24, 2015, 11:13:38 PM
I managed to avoid hearing anything about the RSA v NZ game and was therefore able to watch it as live when I got home. A really enjoyable game to watch, despite the weather conditions. Some if the hits/collisions were immense.

The hits were bad enough at the low level of rugby I played but I dint know how the players get up from some of the collisions at pro level.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 25, 2015, 04:55:41 PM
As much as Offside McCaw and his Globetrotters annoy me, just 2mins of the second semi reminded me how much I can't stand the Wallabies. I'll be rooting for the ABs next week.

Pumas seemed to have been caught cold which is a bit of a surprise. Perhaps they still don't feel they belong in the top tier and the occasion has got to them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 25, 2015, 06:28:16 PM
As much as Offside McCaw and his Globetrotters annoy me, just 2mins of the second semi reminded me how much I can't stand the Wallabies. I'll be rooting for the ABs next week.

Pumas seemed to have been caught cold which is a bit of a surprise. Perhaps they still don't feel they belong in the top tier and the occasion has got to them.

Didn't watch it today (forgot when kick off was) but I suspect it was as much that they just ran out of steam.  Argentina have put everything they have into this tournament and I think this was just a game too far for them.

Next week I'll be rooting for the aussies because it's worth money to me but aside from that I really couldn't care less now, NZ win and everything will be about how McCaw, Carter, et al are the greatest sportsmen ever, completely ignoring the easy ride they get from refs and if australia win I have to put up with loads of smug bullshit from my aussie friends for however long they think they can get out of it (18months after the ashes down there).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 25, 2015, 06:57:00 PM
I don't think Australia will be able to complain too much if New Zealand get an easy ride from the refs.

(Yep. Still bitter.)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 25, 2015, 10:22:22 PM
I managed to avoid hearing about today's game as well and watched it when I got back in from the NFL. Good effort by the Argies but the Aussies were comfortably the better team overall. Pocock was superb.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 26, 2015, 09:11:01 PM
I managed to avoid hearing about today's game as well and watched it when I got back in from the NFL. Good effort by the Argies but the Aussies were comfortably the better team overall. Pocock was superb.

Speaking of which, how does he do what he does so often, and do it legally?  Or are they always clever enough to pile enough bodies in between him and the ref so he can't really see how he does it? 

But I really like where Argentina are going with their rugby.  Hope they stick with flinging the ball around, and keep on having a monster scrum.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dante Lavelli on October 27, 2015, 06:41:51 AM
But I really like where Argentina are going with their rugby.  Hope they stick with flinging the ball around, and keep on having a monster scrum.

Their current coach identified that flinging it about was more aligned to their Latin spirit and wants to make it part of their rugby DNA.  He's also an ex 7s coach, so I doubt it will change whilst he is in charge.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 27, 2015, 10:56:18 AM
I managed to avoid hearing about today's game as well and watched it when I got back in from the NFL. Good effort by the Argies but the Aussies were comfortably the better team overall. Pocock was superb.

Speaking of which, how does he do what he does so often, and do it legally?  Or are they always clever enough to pile enough bodies in between him and the ref so he can't really see how he does it? 

But I really like where Argentina are going with their rugby.  Hope they stick with flinging the ball around, and keep on having a monster scrum.

A lot like Armitage, sharp reactions, good understnading of the game and the tackle area and a low centre of gravity.  This is why it frustrates me when people call macaw the best 7 ever, or other such platitudes, he's not even the best in this world cup but he is very good at bending the rules just enough to get an advantage but not get pinged for it.  That's not a huge problem, plenty of 7s try it, but I'd love it if just once a ref didn't put up with it.  I reckon yellow within the first 15 and red before half time.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: peter w on October 27, 2015, 01:57:08 PM
Let it go paul, let it go.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on October 27, 2015, 02:01:58 PM
This is why it frustrates me when people call macaw the best 7 ever, or other such platitudes, he's not even the best in this world cup but he is very good at bending the rules just enough to get an advantage but not get pinged for it.  That's not a huge problem, plenty of 7s try it, but I'd love it if just once a ref didn't put up with it.  I reckon yellow within the first 15 and red before half time.

The Ref on Saturday pinged McCaw for offside in the first few minutes of the semi
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 30, 2015, 12:23:23 PM
This is why it frustrates me when people call macaw the best 7 ever, or other such platitudes, he's not even the best in this world cup but he is very good at bending the rules just enough to get an advantage but not get pinged for it.  That's not a huge problem, plenty of 7s try it, but I'd love it if just once a ref didn't put up with it.  I reckon yellow within the first 15 and red before half time.

The Ref on Saturday pinged McCaw for offside in the first few minutes of the semi

Once.  He was the wrong side about 8 times.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 30, 2015, 09:29:10 PM
Annoying that the Aussie tactics have been leaked.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on October 30, 2015, 10:33:19 PM
I was out of the house until half time in the 3rd place game but I flicked on for the 2nd half and managed 8 minutes before turning off in anger that some appalling referee decisions.

The Etzebeth try came from SA winning turnover ball and breaking into the corner, which is all well and good until you see that the SA flyhalf had the guy in a headlock to make the tackle, how the fuck did no one spot that?

Then a few minutes later argentina get a scrum in the SA 22 because Habana has hands of teflon, after the scrum half picks it up 2-3 SA tacklers get him and are pushing him back until one of them lifts his legs in the air and then lets go, not a card because it wasn't particularly dangerous in context but it's a definite penalty, instead it's ignored and then the ref gives the pen the other way for coming in at the side.

SA are much better than Argentina so why the fuck do officials feel the need to help them out with shit like this?

I'm normally very positive towards rugby refs (except Wayne Barnes who clearly doesn't like a few players and can't keep that out of his decision making - Hartley and Kvesic are the 2 where it's really obvious) but the standard in this world cup has been awful at times and it makes the rules seem much more complex than they should be for the more casual viewers, along with ensuring NZ have had the easiest ride to the final imaginable.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Proposition Joe on October 31, 2015, 03:54:55 PM
Despite me writing last week I hope the Globetrotters win, the more I hear about Pocock the more I want him to be on the winning team.

@Paul_e: for those casual observers like me, the reaction to the ref blowing for a penalty 9/10 is "what was that for?".  And I've been watching 5 then 6N for over 20 years, and played Union at school (and League too). 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 03:56:00 PM
Hope it's a belter.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 04:24:34 PM
I like Owens refereeing of this already.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 31, 2015, 04:41:52 PM
A nation built on thieves are stealing a lot of ball from NZ.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
I think NZ will win this comfortably.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 31, 2015, 04:45:28 PM
I like Owens refereeing of this already.

Shame his touch judges don't see the knock ons and forward passes.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 04:47:09 PM
That handling was outstanding.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 31, 2015, 04:49:27 PM
I switch over for 5 mins to check football scores and All Blacks move it from 3-3 to 16-3.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 31, 2015, 04:58:32 PM
That handling was outstanding.

I went to a talk at my lads school from a former All Black forwards coach a year or so ago.  Interestingly in NZ they play touch until the kids are at least 12 or 13 years of age to develop their handling skills.  Here we go to contact at about 10 years of age and we wonder why we can't do it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 05:06:12 PM
Unbelievable stuff.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 31, 2015, 05:30:24 PM
Game on 21-17
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 05:32:11 PM
Yep great stuff now.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 05:37:35 PM
That drop goal wins the World Cup I think.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 31, 2015, 05:39:21 PM
I must say even though I know nothing about this game that drop goal was brilliant.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: olaftab on October 31, 2015, 05:50:47 PM
Best team deservedly wins the World Cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 31, 2015, 05:50:56 PM
Australia looked dead on their feet after 45 minutes, fair play they upped their game and ran it close, Carter was magnificent.

No more McCaw, that's a bonus.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 31, 2015, 06:25:59 PM
Say what you like about McCaw crossing the line, but he's still a fabulous player. Carter is incredible.

It's like they play a different game to England. I think all English players need to learn to work much much harder.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: UK Redsox on November 01, 2015, 08:03:49 AM
Magnificent performance from Dan Carter. Kicking, tackling and generally controlling the game.

Bringing in SBW as a tactical switch was a great move. Two superb offloads in the build up to Nonu's try.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on November 01, 2015, 10:54:30 AM
Great final.
Had everything, even a mistake from Nigel Owens
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 11, 2015, 12:09:55 PM
And Lancaster has gone by mutual consent ie fired.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 11, 2015, 02:23:08 PM
It's the right decision. I'll remember Lancaster as a good man, but ultimately didn't have enough about him to make the key decisions and was too focussed on a physical game in the end.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 11, 2015, 07:04:33 PM
Correct decision, twice in a row we've gone with inexperienced coaches and ended up with a team that looked under coached.  Lancaster made it worse by being painfully loyal to the people he added to the squad at the start regardless of whether that was justified by performances or there were better options.

If Ritchie goes as well and we get a good chief exec who can look further than the office down the hall for the next head coach then I'll be reasonably happy.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2015, 08:09:08 AM
I really hope that Jake White isn't the man to succeed Lancaster.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on November 12, 2015, 09:13:47 AM
I really hope that Jake White isn't the man to succeed Lancaster.

I've a feeling it will be a coach with a southern hemisphere flavour.

Jake White ticks a lot of boxes.
Would be interesting to see if we can steal Michael Cheika from the Aussies.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on November 12, 2015, 09:39:12 AM
Jake White would be a bit "meh" for me.

I'd go for Wayne Smith.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
I don't like Jake White's style of rugby, unless it's changed.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nigel on November 12, 2015, 01:41:10 PM
Jake White would be a bit "meh" for me.

I'd go for Wayne Smith.

Ruled himself out for 2016.
We'll see if he changes his mind when the RFU dangle the pot of gold  ;)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2015, 01:53:02 PM
Whoever is hired needs to get the team playing an exciting, forward thinking style of rugby.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on November 12, 2015, 03:42:05 PM
Jake White would be a bit "meh" for me.

I'd go for Wayne Smith.

Ruled himself out for 2016.
We'll see if he changes his mind when the RFU dangle the pot of gold  ;)

Yep, by the sounds of it there could be millions of reasons for him to change his mind. No wonder Jake White wants in.....
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on November 12, 2015, 09:58:47 PM
It's got to be Laurie Fisher, he's Southern Hemisphere and has a consistent record over here, consistently mediocre.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 13, 2015, 08:20:09 AM
I'm already getting a bit annoyed by White. I'm not sure if it's extracts from the same interview, and if it is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be a soundbite from him every day at the moment.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: aev on November 13, 2015, 08:25:07 AM
I'm already getting a bit annoyed by White. I'm not sure if it's extracts from the same interview, and if it is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be a soundbite from him every day at the moment.

Never trust a man who changes his name.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: lovejoy on November 13, 2015, 12:15:55 PM
I'm already getting a bit annoyed by White. I'm not sure if it's extracts from the same interview, and if it is I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but there seems to be a soundbite from him every day at the moment.

Never trust a man who changes his name.

Too true aev.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on November 17, 2015, 05:22:36 PM
Good first half from Gloucester against Zebre on Friday. Shite second mind.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 18, 2015, 08:13:35 AM
RIP Jonah, an absolute megastar.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: itbrvilla on November 18, 2015, 08:17:03 AM
RIP Jonah, an absolute megastar.
Remember when he burst onto the scene when I was a kid. Frightening he was. RIP. Glad he got to see the All Black's win the world cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 18, 2015, 09:08:35 AM
Terrible news but he's known for a long while that it was likely to happen after the kidney transplant failed a few years back.  May sound harsh but at least he's had a chance to prepare his family, etc. that's not usual for someone his age.  Great winger at his peak who really should have had much more success in his career.

RIP Jonah
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Dr Butler on November 18, 2015, 09:38:09 AM
Terrible news but he's known for a long while that it was likely to happen after the kidney transplant failed a few years back.  May sound harsh but at least he's had a chance to prepare his family, etc. that's not usual for someone his age.  Great winger at his peak who really should have had much more success in his career.

RIP Jonah

40 years old.....still remember him destroying England in the 95 World Cup...RIP Jonah.

UTV
The Doc
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 18, 2015, 03:25:46 PM
Terrible news but he's known for a long while that it was likely to happen after the kidney transplant failed a few years back.  May sound harsh but at least he's had a chance to prepare his family, etc. that's not usual for someone his age.  Great winger at his peak who really should have had much more success in his career.

RIP Jonah

40 years old.....still remember him destroying England in the 95 World Cup...RIP Jonah.

UTV
The Doc

yep, think he was diagnosed when he was about 22 and had a kidney transplant in his mid-late 20s which then failed 4-5 years ago.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: cheltenhamlion on November 18, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
The transplant was rejected in 2011 I believe. An absolute monster of a player and I can at least say I got to meet him.

A few years back he was here doing promotional work and my boss, a Kiwi, managed to organise an afternoon on the beer with him (he wasn't drinking).

A very nice chap and incredibly humble.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: DaveD on November 19, 2015, 11:29:15 AM
He had a slightly odd transplant too. They normally plumb transplanted kidneys in as near to the bladder as possible i.e. lower than they normally reside, but because he wanted to go back to rugby, they put it in higher up, behind the rib cage, to protect it from impacts.

My brother-in-law is a keen snowboarder and had the same procedure when he got a kidney from my wife a few years later.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 19, 2015, 11:46:46 AM
Sounds like Eddie Jones is going to be England's new coach. I'd be very happy with that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 19, 2015, 01:12:55 PM
Sounds like Eddie Jones is going to be England's new coach. I'd be very happy with that.

Yeah it's looking pretty likely, he's the right sort of appointment, our last 2 have been rookies and the job has shown to be too big for them so a guy who's had one of the few jobs that is as big already should be a safe bet.  On top of that he will encourage us to play to our strengths and get the backs much more involved.  I'm happy with this choice.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 19, 2015, 02:49:51 PM
Yep agreed, certainly if the choice is between him and White I know who I want.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 19, 2015, 03:00:03 PM
I think White was the right appointment 4 years ago but not now.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 20, 2015, 09:38:50 AM
Eddie Jones it is then.  4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.

First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2015, 09:51:18 AM
First thing, can this thread be renamed to 'International Rugby' and kept alive.

More importantly, Eddie Jones it is, confirmed this morning - http://www.englandrugby.com/news/eddie-jones-appointed-england-head-coach/ (http://www.englandrugby.com/news/eddie-jones-appointed-england-head-coach/)

Article in full for non-clickers:

Quote
England Rugby has appointed Eddie Jones as Head Coach on a four-year contract, starting in December.

Jones will take charge of England ahead of their opening RBS 6 Nations game against Scotland at Murrayfield on 6 February.

The Australian has had a long and successful coaching career, winning trophies both domestically and internationally, having also spent time coaching in England.

His first major piece of silverware came in 2001 after leading the ACT Brumbies to their first Super 12 title and in doing so becoming the first side outside New Zealand to win the tournament.

Jones took charge of the Wallabies between 2001 and 2005 and delivered both Tri-Nations and Bledisloe Cup success. The national side reached the 2003 Rugby World Cup final on home soil, losing narrowly to England.

After spells with the Queensland Reds and Saracens, the 55 year-old took up a technical advisor role with the Springboks in 2007, helping the South Africans win their second World Cup beating England in the final.

He later became Director of Rugby at Saracens until 2009 and then coached the Japanese club side Suntory Sungoliath.

Jones returned to the international arena in 2011 as Head Coach for Japan where his mother was born. His achievements included arguably the biggest shock in Rugby World Cup history when his side beat South Africa 34-32.

Japan went on to win three of their four pool matches and their performance saw them move into the top ten of the world rankings. Following the tournament he was appointed Head Coach of the South African Super franchise, The Stormers, before agreeing terms with the RFU.

Bright Future
“Firstly my thanks must go to Rob Wagner and everyone at Western Province Rugby for understanding my decision and allowing me to return to the international stage so quickly," said Jones. 

"The opportunity to take the reins in, possibly, the world’s most high profile international rugby job doesn’t come along every day however, and I feel fortunate to be given the opportunity.

“I’m now looking forward to working with the RFU and the players to move beyond the disappointment England suffered at the World Cup and hope to build a new team that will reflect the level of talent that exists within the English game. I believe the future is bright for England.”

RFU Chief Executive Ian Ritchie said: “We promised to recruit a coach with proven international experience and we have done that.

"Eddie is a world-class coach, with extensive experience at the highest level with Australia, South Africa and Japan. We believe that the appointment, which was unanimously approved by the RFU Board, is the right one to bring England success in the short, medium and long term.”

Ritchie added: “We are confident Eddie can build on the strong foundations already laid, with this talented group of players largely remaining together through to the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan and beyond. We are grateful to the Stormers for their co-operation in releasing Eddie early from his contract.”


The bold bit is important and I'm really happy that he's starting so soon and will be able to watch a bunch of matches before his 6N squad gets picked, I think there will be a few surprises, top of the list for me will be call ups for Daly, Itoje and Clifford, I also wouldn't be surprised to see Josh Beaumont get a call up before long.  I doubt Robshaw will wear 7 again, think we might see a bit of a battle between him and Wood for the 6 shirt with Clifford, Kvesic and maybe Armitage (it wouldn't surprise me if Jones is less strict with that rule) fighting for 7.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2015, 09:55:21 AM
Eddie Jones it is then.  4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.

First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.

Borthwick will be in I'm sure and I suspect we'll see a back of a similar pedigree, I wouldn't be massively surprised if it turned out to be Ugo Monye.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2015, 11:56:57 AM
England rugby have a video with Jones on their facebook page, I won't link to it because I don't like adding facebook links and I'm sure much of it will come out in other interviews anyway but the key bits for me:

Wants to keep with English traditions and have a strong set piece and defence but thinks that's not enough to win and we need to add 'pluses' to it by being willing and able to get the ball wide.
Will talk with Ritchie about central contracts, he thinks the relationship between clubs and country is key - I think this is a clear sign that he'll push for the core of the team to be moved to central contracts.
He's said the politically correct answer to the overseas players question, to paraphrase slightly, the rule is in place so if you want to play for England then you know you need to play in England and he only wants players who want to play for England.
He will talk to Robshaw but importantly he said he wants a captain that embodies the spirit of the team, will be an automatic selection and can lead from the front.  Will be interesting to see what comes from that but I expect Robshaw to lose it and my money is on Joe Launchbury.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: nordenvillain on November 20, 2015, 02:05:36 PM
Eddie Jones it is then.  4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.

First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
If David Campanese (Australia's go to person when the media want a valued unbiased objective view of anything concerning England quite obviously) thinks Eddie Jones is a bad appointment, Eddie must be the man for the job ! Seeing as he has not yet overseen The Stormers play a game, will this be world record compensation for a coach that never actually coached the team getting the compensation ?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 20, 2015, 02:37:25 PM
England rugby have a video with Jones on their facebook page, I won't link to it because I don't like adding facebook links and I'm sure much of it will come out in other interviews anyway but the key bits for me:

Wants to keep with English traditions and have a strong set piece and defence but thinks that's not enough to win and we need to add 'pluses' to it by being willing and able to get the ball wide.
Will talk with Ritchie about central contracts, he thinks the relationship between clubs and country is key - I think this is a clear sign that he'll push for the core of the team to be moved to central contracts.
He's said the politically correct answer to the overseas players question, to paraphrase slightly, the rule is in place so if you want to play for England then you know you need to play in England and he only wants players who want to play for England.
He will talk to Robshaw but importantly he said he wants a captain that embodies the spirit of the team, will be an automatic selection and can lead from the front.  Will be interesting to see what comes from that but I expect Robshaw to lose it and my money is on Joe Launchbury.

All sounds like good stuff to me, and retaining the English strength of a good set piece and adding flair to it is key. I think Robshaw still can be involved, but only as a 6.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 20, 2015, 02:47:04 PM
Eddie Jones it is then.  4 year contract starting in December, I assume he'll bring Steve Borthwick with him too.

First job Eddie, get the ridiculous no overseas players rule ditched by the old farts & get them all on central contracts.
If David Campanese (Australia's go to person when the media want a valued unbiased objective view of anything concerning England quite obviously) thinks Eddie Jones is a bad appointment, Eddie must be the man for the job ! Seeing as he has not yet overseen The Stormers play a game, will this be world record compensation for a coach that never actually coached the team getting the compensation ?

Indeed, Campese is as irrelevant in rugby these days as Ian Holloway is in football.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2015
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 20, 2015, 02:51:35 PM
First thing, can this thread be renamed to 'International Rugby' and kept alive.

You watch, a mod will be along any minute now.......................
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Legion on November 20, 2015, 06:23:48 PM
Well, after a few hours...
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2015, 07:45:16 PM
thanks
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 20, 2015, 11:07:08 PM
It's funny the cafe Jones references in Winchester is one I go to quite regularly. I don't think discarding Robshaw completely is great, he should compete at 6.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 21, 2015, 01:32:35 AM
It's funny the cafe Jones references in Winchester is one I go to quite regularly. I don't think discarding Robshaw completely is great, he should compete at 6.

I think that's what happen, I'm confident we won't see him at 7 again though, which would be the right decision
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 21, 2015, 01:00:13 PM
Most of the commentary on Jones states that he tries to identify and maximise the countries natural game.  I hope he doesn't interpret our games as simply the 'bulldog' spirit and choose a one dimensional game-plan.  That is probably my only worry.

oh another - has he got the stomach/authority to actually try and change the way rugby is run in this country?  Is he simply the coach or does he have loftier ambitions?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 21, 2015, 01:32:30 PM
Most of the commentary on Jones states that he tries to identify and maximise the countries natural game.  I hope he doesn't interpret our games as simply the 'bulldog' spirit and choose a one dimensional game-plan.  That is probably my only worry.

oh another - has he got the stomach/authority to actually try and change the way rugby is run in this country?  Is he simply the coach or does he have loftier ambitions?

http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/11/4769/eddie-jones-leaves-the-stormers-and-is-appointed-new-england-head-coach

Video at the bottom, one of the questions is about style and he says he'll try to keep the basics we have but add to them.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on November 22, 2015, 12:59:54 AM
Only a couple of weeks after winning the Rugby World Cup New Zealand has had a week of mourning, firstly with the very sad news about Jonah (I've never seen an outpouring of grief like it) and then "The King" - Richie McCaw announcing his retirement. Has been a very strange week over here.   
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 22, 2015, 09:43:48 AM
Only a couple of weeks after winning the Rugby World Cup New Zealand has had a week of mourning, firstly with the very sad news about Jonah (I've never seen an outpouring of grief like it) and then "The King" - Richie McCaw announcing his retirement. Has been a very strange week over here.   

Inappropriate to even speculate this, but has there ever been rumours of Lomu and steroid use?  It seems an awkward coincidence that the biggest freak of player had kidney failure.  A friend who played at a club in NZ (it might have been league though) said that steroid use was rife and that would have been the same era. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on November 23, 2015, 06:27:18 AM
Only a couple of weeks after winning the Rugby World Cup New Zealand has had a week of mourning, firstly with the very sad news about Jonah (I've never seen an outpouring of grief like it) and then "The King" - Richie McCaw announcing his retirement. Has been a very strange week over here.   

Inappropriate to even speculate this, but has there ever been rumours of Lomu and steroid use?  It seems an awkward coincidence that the biggest freak of player had kidney failure.  A friend who played at a club in NZ (it might have been league though) said that steroid use was rife and that would have been the same era. 

A valid question although there have been issues with steroid abuse in League and players have been banned here and Australia, I have never heard of any abuse in Rugby Union. Jonah was a top athlete at school in a few disciplines and was big when he was at school. I think he was just what people called him, a freak of nature.   
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on November 23, 2015, 11:06:50 AM
Inappropriate to even speculate this, but has there ever been rumours of Lomu and steroid use?  It seems an awkward coincidence that the biggest freak of player had kidney failure.  A friend who played at a club in NZ (it might have been league though) said that steroid use was rife and that would have been the same era. 

Given they often prescribe steroids to children with nephrotic syndrome, whether there's any truth in it or not, I would consider it unlikely that there's a causal link.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 03, 2015, 09:50:24 PM
Any danger the rugby threads can be merged? 

There's not much traffic and I reckon the handful of posters - due to their public school education etc etc - are intelligent enough to fathom whether we're talking about international or domestic rugby.  Personally I'd prefer one thread to always be near the top of the Sports Area section rather than two lurking in mid-table.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 03, 2015, 10:45:26 PM
Tarquin is that you?  You still owe me 50p from prep school.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 03, 2015, 11:02:13 PM
Tarquin is that you?  You still owe me 50p from prep school.

Ha!

See my bait worked, a rugby post appears and one of a handful of posters responds (with abuse on this occasion).  If there were more posts on the same thread then it would generate more traffic.  Or something like that.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 03, 2015, 11:29:16 PM
I've been trying not to post too often, the rugby threads feel a bit a private chat for me and Paul Winch at times.

oh, and for the record, I'm state comp all the way, living in Northampton for 2 1/2 years (they won the Heineken cup whilst I was there) both got me into the sport and picked a team for me, I also have a soft spot for Glaws because 2 of my best friends whilst I was there were huge fans and drove over for every home match so I watched them as often as I watched saints.  I understandably also have an irrational dislike for everything Leicester, a dislike which was shockingly increased when Cockerill took over because I can't think of a bigger tosser in the entire sport (and many other sports besides, the city had the dubious honour of having the 2 most odious sports managers in the country last season).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on December 04, 2015, 03:54:19 PM
Another state comp interloper here.

Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...

And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 04, 2015, 09:00:36 PM
Another state comp interloper here.

Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...

And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.

I've long been of the opinion that the commentators are scared to be too honest about England, the only one who's ever really said it as I see it is Guscott (who I've met a few times, smart guy and knows the game well but is a right smug arse with it).  Even after a truly dire world cup there were some defending him, it's really odd.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 06, 2015, 09:54:03 PM
Another state comp interloper here.

Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...

And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.

I've long been of the opinion that the commentators are scared to be too honest about England, the only one who's ever really said it as I see it is Guscott (who I've met a few times, smart guy and knows the game well but is a right smug arse with it).  Even after a truly dire world cup there were some defending him, it's really odd.

Brian Moore?  Maybe he limits his criticism to the team rather than the infrastructure but generally speaks his mind in my opinion.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on December 06, 2015, 10:05:17 PM
Wasn't a thrombosis that killed Lomu?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 07, 2015, 10:06:15 AM
Another state comp interloper here.

Was at a do where Gareth Chilcott and Stuart Barnes were the speakers last night. Managed to have a chat with Barnesy afterwards - he's a top bloke. He's a lot more forthright in person than he's allowed to be on air. Fairly scathing about the Lancaster reign. And he's really small, especially for a rugby player - I'm not quite six foot and I towered over him. He wouldn't get a look-in nowadays, he said as much...

And I told Chilcott to pull his bloody finger out and publish that Iraq report.

I've long been of the opinion that the commentators are scared to be too honest about England, the only one who's ever really said it as I see it is Guscott (who I've met a few times, smart guy and knows the game well but is a right smug arse with it).  Even after a truly dire world cup there were some defending him, it's really odd.

Brian Moore?  Maybe he limits his criticism to the team rather than the infrastructure but generally speaks his mind in my opinion.

Spot on - and easy to prove - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11997777/Dont-blame-RFU-boss-Ian-Ritchie-for-Stuart-Lancasters-failings-as-England-coach.html

So a guy who stated that he was ultimately responsible for the performance of team shouldn't go because he has other responsibilities that he's doing well with?  The simple scrutiny is how much would it have been worth to English rugby both financially and through exposure, to get to a semi-final or better in our home world cup?

Wasn't a thrombosis that killed Lomu?

Yes, Thrombosis caused by his nephrotic syndrome which led to a heart attack, that's the reports I've read at least, all comes back to the kidney problems though, the condition was clearly serious when they gave him a transplant but once that was rejected it was always going to be a case of when and not if unfortunately.  the problem with nephrotic syndrome is that it's often a secondary condition and treating the primary problem resolves it so you get lots of irrelevant info on a web search, when it's the primary condition it's much more difficult to do anything about.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 09, 2015, 01:36:55 PM
Interesting, he criticises people for wanting rid of Andrew/Richie without knowing the facts and then states:

"His role includes the far wider responsibility for the RFU’s financial well-being, grassroots rugby and many other things. Those facets of English rugby have been handled properly."

Any ideas what the 'handled properly' bit is based on?  Have the coaching/playing numbers improved dramatically? 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on December 09, 2015, 06:31:46 PM
All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 10, 2015, 11:08:34 AM
All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.

The top division is strong, outside that the game is really no better than it was in the first years after professionalisation.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 10, 2015, 01:35:19 PM
All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.

The top division is strong, outside that the game is really no better than it was in the first years after professionalisation.

I must admit whenever I see my local club training sessions that I am impressed by the professionalism.
When the youth are training I reckon there's about 5 lads to each coach.  Furthermore friends who help/coach the kids have all undertaken courses so that there is a coherent thread to what they're teaching. 

This is infinitely better than my experiences playing football as a nipper and much better that when I played rugby from 15-18.  I'm unsure whether the improvement has any thing to do with Andrew or Richie though.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 10, 2015, 07:25:19 PM
All things considered, domestic rugby is strong. Both at grass roots and bringing people through and at the top. It just needs harnassing.

The top division is strong, outside that the game is really no better than it was in the first years after professionalisation.

I must admit whenever I see my local club training sessions that I am impressed by the professionalism.
When the youth are training I reckon there's about 5 lads to each coach.  Furthermore friends who help/coach the kids have all undertaken courses so that there is a coherent thread to what they're teaching. 

This is infinitely better than my experiences playing football as a nipper and much better that when I played rugby from 15-18.  I'm unsure whether the improvement has any thing to do with Andrew or Richie though.


Sorry I was rushing a little.  What I mean by that is that the money which has gone into club rugby at lower levels hasn't really raised the standards at first team level as you'd expect.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 17, 2015, 08:59:31 AM
Dylan Hartlley, from suspended for the RWC 2015 to England captain so rumour has it.

Certainly an interesting choice if true.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 17, 2015, 10:22:57 AM
Well first thing he clearly should have been at the world cup, he's the only international class hooker we have and he was hugely missed in the scrum and lineout.

That ticks the first box of being the best player available in his position.
He's young enough to play in 2019 so that ticks the 2nd box.
He's played 66 games for England and has captained a title winning side domestically.
He will challenge a referee if he thinks they're being unfair (as opposed to apologising to them like Robshaw).

The 54 weeks of bans is the problem but even then some of it is very harsh.

26 weeks for eye-gouging - can't defend this but it was a long time ago now (2007) and is nearly half of the ban time on it's own.  Over 18 weeks is considered 'high-end' for this.
8 weeks for biting Ferris' finger because he was fish-hooking him out of a ruck, I'm not condoning biting but if someone jams 2 fingers into your mouth to pull you out of a ruck you've got mitigating circumstances, 8 weeks was far too long.
2 weeks for punching Rory Best I can agree with.
11 weeks for calling Barnes a cheat when he gave an incredibly harsh penalty, given how Barnes had been in the game I can understand the frustration but he needed to keep a hold on it until halftime and then have it raised via the proper channels.
3 weeks for 'elbowing' Matt Smith - again the ban is about fair but calling it elbowing is .
4 weeks for 'headbutting' Jamie George - The harshest of the lot, anyone else on that pitch and they get a slap on wrist, Hartley gets a 4 week ban and loses his world cup place.

I honestly think you could take 15-20 weeks away from that lot and they'd be more fitting for what he'd done, the Ferris and George bans were totally inappropriate for the offence.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 17, 2015, 02:04:53 PM
I saw Stuart Lancaster getting off the tub this morning.  That is all.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on December 17, 2015, 05:44:46 PM
Off the tub?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 17, 2015, 08:22:10 PM
to be fair a guy who thinks Chris Robshaw is an international quality open-side might well think that a bathtub is a reasonable mode of transport so I'm not questioning it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 17, 2015, 11:15:19 PM
Gustard is the defensive coach then. Could be a very good appointment.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 17, 2015, 11:33:52 PM
Gustard is a superb appointment, I hate sarries but to their credit they're superbly well organised in defence.  If we can get a backs coach with a rep for creating sides which break the line in first and second phase then I think we'll quickly become the team that we can be.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on December 18, 2015, 12:51:01 AM
Would you keep Robshaw at 6?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 18, 2015, 08:57:00 AM
Would you keep Robshaw at 6?

I'd let him compete for the shirt, we've got a lot of strength at 6 so I don't think anyone can be guaranteed a spot (Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Gibson off the top of my head).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 18, 2015, 08:59:30 AM
Gustard is a superb appointment, I hate sarries but to their credit they're superbly well organised in defence.  If we can get a backs coach with a rep for creating sides which break the line in first and second phase then I think we'll quickly become the team that we can be.

He's looking at Alex King.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 18, 2015, 08:59:58 AM
I agree on Robshaw, he should be in with a shout at 6.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 18, 2015, 11:02:04 AM
Gustard is a superb appointment, I hate sarries but to their credit they're superbly well organised in defence.  If we can get a backs coach with a rep for creating sides which break the line in first and second phase then I think we'll quickly become the team that we can be.

He's looking at Alex King.

I'm not sure I like that idea.  I'm a saints fan and I don't think King has got them playing in a style that would suit the attacking options England have.  Based on this season I'd be keeping a very close eye on Lee Blackett at Wasps, their backs look superb.  Darren Edwards at Bath is the other option.  As above I want someone who has teams creating line-breaks in first phase, that's the bit where good coaching really shows.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 18, 2015, 08:59:19 PM
Watching Saints now, and always try to watch when they're on TV, and I agree with that.  The play is too forwards/strength orientated.  If the forwards don't dominate then we struggle.  JJ (the new fly half, who's name I cannot remember) may change that over time, but nothing suggest it is a blueprint England should copy.

I read somewhere that Jones wants to have control of the attacking play, with a lesser coach to support him.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 18, 2015, 10:07:37 PM
Watching Saints now, and always try to watch when they're on TV, and I agree with that.  The play is too forwards/strength orientated.  If the forwards don't dominate then we struggle.  JJ (the new fly half, who's name I cannot remember) may change that over time, but nothing suggest it is a blueprint England should copy.

I read somewhere that Jones wants to have control of the attacking play, with a lesser coach to support him.

JJ Hanrahan is a good signing and might give us something more to go with and Burrell will always run dangerous lines and has a fantastic offload but the backline is far too static and they make themselves easy targets all too often.  It's a shame because a side with North, Foden, Elliott, K. Pisi and Tuala as the wide options should be seriously dangerous but too many times it comes back to the forwards punching holes at the breakdown and creating broken field so those outside backs have space.  It can be very effective but an aggressive defence can close them down, hence they struggle against sides like Racing and Sarries.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 19, 2015, 01:18:13 PM
The draw with Racing summed up the current Saints team and for that matter England team.  They were the better team in the 2nd half and won countless turnovers but once won, and with the play was broken, they chose to take the ball into contact and the safety of their routines.  It's all too pre-meditated in my opinion and a few more maverick players need to be afforded the luxury of a few mistakes.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 31, 2015, 09:23:42 PM
Jonny May looks like he's out for the 6N, with Brookes and Slade already missing that's 3 of my 22 missing already, hope we have a bit more luck over the next few weeks.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 02, 2016, 12:21:48 PM
Elliot Daly has stepped up a bit so there's a potential replacement for Slade.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 12, 2016, 02:27:18 PM
Sounds like Gatland is going to be the Lions coach again, that's our chances gone.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 13, 2016, 02:06:29 PM
Squad:

Forwards
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints) 
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby) *injury replacement for Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs) 
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby) *injury replacement for Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *injury replacement for Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on January 13, 2016, 02:11:24 PM
What's happened to Wade? Whose the captain?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 13, 2016, 02:14:55 PM
Goode being there makes me sad. I'm glad to see Ashton back involved though he's earned it. Tom Wood completely being dropped is a surprise, I reckon is Itoje against Robshaw for number 6 then.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 13, 2016, 02:20:56 PM
To avoid making it a mess I'm posting my thoughts seperately so...

The disclaimer here is that he could only make 11 replacements so this was always likely to be a bit of a muddle.

The Good:
Clifford, Hill, Itoje, Kvesic, Daly, Devoto - All good additions

The Bad:
No Cips, no Waller, Goode, Haskell and Care all retained

I'm ok with that squad, it's a touch harsh on Wood and Morgan who weren't the problem in the back row and I'm surprised that Tom Youngs has been dropped out completely.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 13, 2016, 02:21:46 PM
What's happened to Wade? Whose the captain?

Wade is out until near the end of the tournament so no shock he's not involved, captain isn't named yet but the safe money is on Hartley.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 13, 2016, 02:28:25 PM
Goode being there makes me sad. I'm glad to see Ashton back involved though he's earned it. Tom Wood completely being dropped is a surprise, I reckon is Itoje against Robshaw for number 6 then.

I'd go with Clifford, Kvesic, Billy with Beaumont on the bench for the first game, pace and power and a bit of mongrel.  I'd have Itoje on the bench behind Lawes and Launchbury. With Mako and Hill the likely prop replacements and George to come on at Hooker that's a lot of pace and power off the bench.  I'd have liked Simpson and Cips as well to carry that injection of pace right out into the backs (I'd go with Devoto and Daly in the centre and JJ as the final sub) but Care and Farrell are ok as impact options.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 13, 2016, 02:57:25 PM
The squad announcement comes with a short interview with Jones here - http://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-openside-centres-and-captaincy/

The key bit for me is:

Quote
Jones also addressed the issue of what he saw as the role of an openside in international rugby. “Their primary job at first phase in attack is to ensure we win quick ball.

“So, they need very good clean out skills. Then conversely on the opposition ball they need to ensure they slow that ball down.”

It's good to see the England coach raising the same concerns I have and for that is a clear message that Robshaw (as he was) is not the 7 he wants.  I've always felt like I'm being a bit cruel to him to constantly complain about the openside as the key issue in the pack but it really is a specialist job and it's weird that the RFU, collectively, seemed to forget that for a long time.

It's also nice to hear him talk about what he wants at 12, which is basically the final nail in the coffin for Barritt's international career.  He name dropped Slade as what he sees as a proper 12 which again fits nicely with my view on how we need to play, I think this time next year we'll be looking at a very different England team and I pretty excited by the whole thing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on January 13, 2016, 05:16:04 PM
Bit pissed off that Kvesic only gets in due to injury to others. He has been a credible starter for England at 7 for three years now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: lovejoy on January 15, 2016, 07:29:04 AM
Bit pissed off that Kvesic only gets in due to injury to others. He has been a credible starter for England at 7 for three years now.
Exactly, it's ridiculous. Also May wouldn't have been in the squad either. And no Morgan.
Why is Gloucester forever a graveyard for international careers?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 15, 2016, 07:51:35 AM
I can sort of understand the change with Morgan, him and Billy and too similar so they wanted someone a bit different, whoever got that 2nd '8' berth is only keeping it warm for a year anyway, Nathan Hughes will be in the squad as soon as he can be added, unless his game completely abandons him.

May is a tough one to know what they intended, the injury cover call ups are all, except Slade, covering people who may be back in during the 6N whereas May definitely won't be so it might well mean nothing that he's been 'dropped'.

Kvesic I agree, I find it very strange that his spot is only as cover when the others are 6s.  Maybe he sees Clifford as a viable 7, he's certainly the only 1 I'd trust to cover the entire back row.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Proposition Joe on January 15, 2016, 09:49:21 PM
Must admit to not being quite keyed in with what's going on, but if Jones doesn't see May in his plans then, to borrow from Dr House, he's an idiot.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 15, 2016, 10:15:49 PM
I'm quite glad to see Ashton back.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 15, 2016, 11:51:34 PM
Must admit to not being quite keyed in with what's going on, but if Jones doesn't see May in his plans then, to borrow from Dr House, he's an idiot.

As I say, lets see what happens in the summer when he gets to fully overhaul the squad rather than being restricted (central contracts mean he can't just pick whatever squad he wants, he had to select most of the world cup squad).  I like May, he's a fantastic winger but it is an area where we have a lot of strength so let's give Yarde and Ashton a chance to show they should be there.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on January 16, 2016, 09:22:19 AM
I'd worry about any professional sportsman who, for whatever reason, wants a year out of the game as if they're on a gap year. Even if he comes back I suspect his edge, legs, mind, whatever, will be gone. I'm not sure I'd want him back either. Obviously I'm talking about international level as I have no interest in club rugby - unless he fancies it at Moseley.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Proposition Joe on January 16, 2016, 10:32:54 AM
Has Ashton found a rich new seam of form then, or learnt some new tricks? Last matches he'd played in for England he looked like a very poor man's Ben Cohen, a finisher nothig more and not able to create chances himself.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 16, 2016, 10:38:03 AM
England played the wrong type of game for Ashton, but yes he's scored a lot of tries and got a lot better under the high ball. I think with Ford he'd be excellent.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 16, 2016, 11:57:01 AM
England played the wrong type of game for Ashton, but yes he's scored a lot of tries and got a lot better under the high ball. I think with Ford he'd be excellent.

Pretty much this, he's worked on his defence a lot with the guy who is now England defence coach, so they must be confident that he's ok on that side. In attack he's always been good enough.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 19, 2016, 10:33:55 AM
England played the wrong type of game for Ashton, but yes he's scored a lot of tries and got a lot better under the high ball. I think with Ford he'd be excellent.

Pretty much this, he's worked on his defence a lot with the guy who is now England defence coach, so they must be confident that he's ok on that side. In attack he's always been good enough.

Looks like this might be academic, seems pretty certain that he's going to be on the end of a significant ban, there are videos about but pulling someone out of a maul by their face just isn't going to end well, 8-12 weeks I reckon.

So Roko back in I'd guess?  I'd go a bit left-field and call up Lewington but I don't think Jones is ready to be that brave.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 19, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
It's 12 weeks minimum isn't it? it's annoying really, as I'd like to see him given the chance.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 19, 2016, 02:55:38 PM
It's 12 weeks minimum isn't it? it's annoying really, as I'd like to see him given the chance.

Technically yes but with the option to reduce up to a 3rd bad on reputation, Given Ashton hasn't really ever done anything nasty I'd suspect it'll be dropped by a few weeks.  The key thing is, having watched a few videos of it I can't see how he won't get banned, I don't think there's any malicious intent there but it's horribly clumsy given the current reffing of using the head or neck to clear someone out.



about 21-22 seconds in you see it real time, ashton wearing 14 on Marshall with the cap on just as Ulster try to bundle it into touch, I just can't see him getting away with it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 20, 2016, 02:30:13 PM
As expected Ashton out of the 6 Nations then, disappointing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 20, 2016, 02:36:45 PM
10 weeks, so pretty much exactly what i predicted, no surprise.  Was a very stupid thing to do so close to the tournament.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 25, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
Roko called up as replacement for Ashton, probably the right call.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 25, 2016, 02:12:55 PM
Hartley is probably the right call. I could only think of two players I'd absolutely certainly start and they're Hartley and Launchbury. Brown would come close to that, but I think on balance Hartley is probably the right choice.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 25, 2016, 03:35:49 PM
Hartley is probably the right call. I could only think of two players I'd absolutely certainly start and they're Hartley and Launchbury. Brown would come close to that, but I think on balance Hartley is probably the right choice.

Brown should never be anywhere near the captaincy even without the massive flaws to his game that I see (but which many others don't) fullbacks are a rubbish choice for the job and on top of that he's not the sharpest of tools.

Launchbury, in my opinion, is a few years away from being ready but he's the right choice longer term.  I think Slade will become a leader in the team as well and Hill looks like he has everything you'd want in a captain as well but Hartley for a couple of years and then go from there seems obvious.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 25, 2016, 07:07:01 PM
Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting Brown should be captain, I meant that he was one of only three players I could fairly catergorically say will start.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 25, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
I think Jones would be doing everyone a favour if the captaincy was awarded for the next set of internationals (6-Nations / Autumn Internationals / 6 Nations etc), then it would not be a shock/demotion if Launchbury was appointed this time next year.  It also avoids the Robshaw situation where a player cannot be dropped because he is captain. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 25, 2016, 07:31:59 PM
To be fair I think he has basically said that. He said the captain will be the player who he deems to be the best at that time.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 25, 2016, 07:44:39 PM
To be fair I think he has basically said that. He said the captain will be the player who he deems to be the best at that time.

Good.  I cannot see how that can be a bad thing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 25, 2016, 07:47:46 PM
I agree, your captain should always be one of your best players.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on January 25, 2016, 07:48:48 PM
Every team needs a dog and Dylan is a rabid dog.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 25, 2016, 08:50:12 PM
Every team needs a dog and Dylan is a rabid dog.

He's nothing like as rabid as he's made out to be but his reputation goes against him, as I've said before he's had 1 major ban when he was far too hot-headed and since then he's had 1 reasonable ban for punching and then 4 bans that were to the player not the offence.  The 'headbutt' that kept him out of the world cup is a good example, I honestly think that any other player in league would've got away with that, it was something of nothing and it happened because Lancaster didn't like him so the rfu did him a favour.

The ban for 'verbal abuse' was pathetic as well, take the context, the player asks if they can kick it on the full, he mumbles an answer that they misinterpret as confirmation and then he gives a scrum to Leicester and it collapses with neither front row clearly at fault.  The sensible decision is to reset it, giving a penalty right in front of the posts was a terrible decision.  This isn't defending calling him a cheat, but it really isn't worthy of an 11 week ban, I think he knows full well that he has a clear bias towards tigers and the comment cut a bit close to the truth.

Finally getting a ban for biting a finger when said finger is being used to fishhook you out of a ruck is ok but only if the other guy is banned for at least as long, giving Ferris 4 weeks and then removing 2 because of good character when you give Hartley 8 and no reduction is just plain wrong.

None of this is to condone any of his offences, it's purely to point out that's he's been given a particularly shitty end of the stick since Lancaster came in (5 of the 6 bans have come since Lancaster came in and said rather early on that he wanted calm heads). I'm not saying that's the reason but given the number of times bans have worked to see players back just in time for internationals to see the same player get 2 bans that rule him out of international events is curious.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 26, 2016, 12:42:02 PM
Jones has said that Robshaw is 'easily the best 6' in England, so he's clearly going to start.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 26, 2016, 01:39:10 PM
Jones has said that Robshaw is 'easily the best 6' in England, so he's clearly going to start.

To be honest I don't think he's the best 6 at quins (Jack Clifford has been brilliant for them for the last year or so and the extra pace and power he brings would be very useful) let alone in England but I don't think he'd be a bad choice and he will be another experienced head in an inexperienced team so I can see the sense in it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 26, 2016, 07:38:54 PM
So the matchday squad is pretty much announced then:

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens).

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

The 10 players released back to their clubs:

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).

I make that to be:

Marler; Hartley; Cole
Launchbury; Kruis/Lawes*
Robshaw; Billy V; Haskell

Youngs; Ford
Nowell; Devoto; JJ; Watson
Brown

Subs
Mako V; George; Hill; Kruis/Lawes*; Clifford; Care; Farrell; Goode

*i don't think anyone will be able to pick between this pair until the last minute

I'm mostly happy with that other than:

Still no real 7 in the team, Haskell has played there a fair bit but he's a meathead and still doesn't offer enough at the breakdown.
Keeping Goode and sending Daly back is plain wrong, Goode is deceptively slow and will be caught out at international level, his incompetence on the wing against France ranks very highly on my list of worst performances I've ever seen for England (it's right up there with Tait getting mullered against Wales and Noon wearing the shit).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 26, 2016, 07:56:14 PM
I'm pretty disappointed to see Daly, Kvesic and Itoje sent back.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 26, 2016, 09:09:25 PM
I'm pretty disappointed to see Daly, Kvesic and Itoje sent back.

Itoje makes sense, he's clear 4th choice right now even though he will be ahead of all of them in a few years.  The other 2 I just don't see the sense of.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 26, 2016, 09:17:18 PM
I reckon we'll see Farrell start at 12.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 26, 2016, 09:23:54 PM
I hope not, he's not good enough to play there and not only would it nullify the backs it would also be a vote of no confidence in Ford as a goal kicker.  I'd be very surprised if the 15 isn't what I've posted (I'm still not making a call on Kruis/Lawes though, my heart says Lawes because he's been brilliant for England in the past and is just hitting form again but Kruis is the form lock in the league this season so he's a good poster boy for the 'picked on form' argument.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 26, 2016, 09:34:35 PM
I hope not too, but just a feeling.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 27, 2016, 01:09:57 PM
I reckon we'll see Farrell start at 12.

I agree, or at least that is what most the press are suggesting.

Daly has been great this year, however I think there is some merit is keeping young players down for as long as sensible.  I know that sounds counter intuitive but - in football - players are promoted too early for England and I think that often affects their hunger and enthusiasm to learn more moving forward.  If you keep the first cap tantalisingly out of reach then the players will be determined to make small improvements to bridge the gap.  That attitude then becomes their natural work ethic.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 27, 2016, 01:23:57 PM
I'm curious to see where he sees Slade once he's fit, because he has to play and Jones has already said he sees Tuilagi as 'world class' and as a 12. It'll be interesting to see where people fit.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 27, 2016, 05:00:32 PM
I'm curious to see where he sees Slade once he's fit, because he has to play and Jones has already said he sees Tuilagi as 'world class' and as a 12. It'll be interesting to see where people fit.

I disagree with him on Tuilagi, if he can shave off the rough edges (which have always been there but are even clearer after the couple of years he's had) he can be a world class 13, at 12 I'd prefer someone who is better at bringing other players into the game.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on January 27, 2016, 10:26:28 PM
Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on January 27, 2016, 11:43:26 PM
Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?

ignoring the obvious clickbait this year is a really tough call.  A lot of the french players are struggling for form, Ireland look much weaker than they have been, the Welsh have even worse form problems than France, the Italians who've stalled a bit, Scotland are comfortably the most improved side (but given they had been challenging for the spoon with Italy that was much needed) and England are trying to change style following an awful world cup which is always a risk.

With all that I'd honestly say this is the closest 6N (on paper) for years and it should make for some fascinating ties with the first weekend likely to be the best of the lot, Italy are normally at their best vs France and always come out of the blocks fast so that has huge upset potential, then you have England looking to dominate up front and create opportunities for the backs against a Scottish side who want to keep the ball in the loose and counter attack and then Sunday is a kick out between 2 'up and under' traditional NH teams.

The wild card is the club performances, Racing aside the English teams have bossed both competitions so you'd think there will a lot of confidence in the group that they've spent 6 months knocking the world cup out of their collective systems by beating the best the celtic and french leagues have to offer with a fair amount of regularity.  If Jones can build that into something positive England could be really dangerous this year.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 28, 2016, 10:05:49 AM
I've genuinely got not idea who's going to win, going to be very interesting.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on January 28, 2016, 12:56:14 PM
Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?

I've been in Scotland the past few days, this is a pretty common theme amongst the deluded skirt wearing traitors.  Based on 1 good game at the RWC they think they're the surprise package of 2016.  I'm sure they'll give England a good game first up, they're a bit like the noses, it's their final and what with Murrayfield no longer being packed out with schoolchildren with free tickets because their Union couldnt give tickets away 2 years ago to those of a drinking age, I expect it will be an intimidating afternoon for England but expect us to win by 8.

And no, I have no idea who'll win it but it won't be Scotland.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 28, 2016, 02:12:09 PM
I'm interested to see how we (England) get on. I'm a little disappointed with some of the decisions made, but before I see the team play it's hard to judge. I just want Jones to get us back to having a forward pack that dominates, but with the cutting edge in the backs.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on January 28, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?

Georgia
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on January 28, 2016, 08:25:10 PM
Sadly I really don't expect Scotland to do well. I remember doing well against New Zealand and comfortably beating Argentina in the Autumn tests, another time when we'd beaten Australia home and away, in each case we went into the Six Nations full of confidence and fucked it up good and proper. I'd be delighted with three wins. One or zero is still more likely.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on January 28, 2016, 09:31:13 PM
Sadly I really don't expect Scotland to do well. I remember doing well against New Zealand and comfortably beating Argentina in the Autumn tests, another time when we'd beaten Australia home and away, in each case we went into the Six Nations full of confidence and fucked it up good and proper. I'd be delighted with three wins. One or zero is still more likely.

You could say the same for England to be fair, it's wide open, I suspect Wales and Ireland will be there or there a outs come the final weekend sadly.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on January 28, 2016, 10:31:58 PM
I hope Wales do badly. They seem the mouthiest when their team does well.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dave Cooper please on January 29, 2016, 08:47:22 AM
Time for the thread to have another name change. Who do people fancy to finish second behind Scotland?

Georgia

Did you have them on your mind?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on January 29, 2016, 02:28:41 PM
Tuilagi is ridiculously injury prone.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on January 29, 2016, 04:33:36 PM
Indeed, I really think he needs to leave Leicester, there's something not right and a clean start would've been best for everyone.  Some of his injury problems have been down to technical flaws that were just allowed to carry on, Wilkinson had a similar issue and missed a big chunk of what should have been the best part of his career because of it and I can see Manu going the same way.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on January 29, 2016, 11:25:30 PM
I think England will win the 6 nations pretty comfortably. Before the World Cup we always seemed to be nearly there and put in some great performances but always the odd poor one. I just fancy that the World Cup will have galvanised a team that just want to get out there and right a few wrongs. I think it'll be a clean sweep.

1. England
2. France
3. Wales
4. Scotland
5. Ireland
6. Italy
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: lovejoy on January 29, 2016, 11:28:27 PM
I think England will win the 6 nations pretty comfortably. Before the World Cup we always seemed to be nearly there and put in some great performances but always the odd poor one. I just fancy that the World Cup will have galvanised a team that just want to get out there and right a few wrongs. I think it'll be a clean sweep.

1. England
2. France
3. Wales
4. Scotland
5. Ireland
6. Italy

That must be based on sentiment and not any factual evidence, we have a new coach and captain who is prone to being banned, we went out in the World Cup group stages and haven't done a grand slam for ages, and yet with all these variables you think this is the year?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on January 29, 2016, 11:45:42 PM
I do. We should have won it quite a few times over the last few seasons and I think Eddie jones will have given them the edge they need on top of the performances thet will want t put in after last year.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 04, 2016, 11:21:54 AM
I really want Jones to be the coach I hoped for but Farrell at 12 isn't a great start and for all the talk of wanting a proper 7 he's gone with Haskell and he's pretty much guaranteed to get 80minutes.  We'll see but I don't think we'll see quite the level of expansive play we were hoping for.  I'm hoping that he's done this because scotland play a similar way and they're further along than us so he's being a little more pragmatic.  I really hope we see a proper 12 and a proper 7 later on though.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2016, 02:19:29 PM
I'm hoping he's just starting with a stable approach and will build on it. Farrell at 12 I can't see being a long term option, or Haskell at 7.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2016, 02:23:31 PM
In fairness though he has said that Itoje and Daly will feature in the 6 Nations, so hopefully this is just a start.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 04, 2016, 02:51:21 PM
I'm not impressed. Swapping the numbers on Robshaw and Haskell's backs isn't going to stop us getting killed at the breakdown, and much as I like Farrell, I don't see him as an international class 12.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 04, 2016, 03:21:16 PM
I'm not impressed. Swapping the numbers on Robshaw and Haskell's backs isn't going to stop us getting killed at the breakdown, and much as I like Farrell, I don't see him as an international class 12.

Exactly, we need a proper 7, if that means a tails between their legs trip to toulon then so be it.  Otherwise look at Kvesic and maybe start enquiring as to the availability of Teimana Harrison.  They're the 2 proper 7s in English rugby that might be possible (Harrison is a New Zealander but has an English father and has stated he'd prefer to represent England, maybe only to get away from New Zealand where he was involved in a fatal accident a few years back, hence a conversation would be needed).
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cheltenhamlion on February 05, 2016, 03:34:16 PM
Fucking Farrell and Haskell? Dear me.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on February 05, 2016, 06:00:04 PM
You avoiding the score in the pub tomorrow or am I free to tell you about all of Scotland's tries?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 05, 2016, 06:15:29 PM
You avoiding the score in the pub tomorrow or am I free to tell you about all of Scotland's tries?

At least it won't take you long... :P
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on February 05, 2016, 06:18:07 PM
16-24
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on February 05, 2016, 06:44:04 PM
You avoiding the score in the pub tomorrow or am I free to tell you about all of Scotland's tries?

At least it won't take you long... :P

Why you!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: UK Redsox on February 06, 2016, 03:35:29 PM
Up an Alp watching France losing to Italy
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2016, 03:58:06 PM
haven't seen any of it but it's just as close as I suspected, I think this will be the best 6N we've had for years.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: UK Redsox on February 06, 2016, 04:15:39 PM
France were lucky there. Italy didn't appear to have a drop kicker do set up their Number 8 to have a go and he made a right pigs ear of it.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2016, 04:22:14 PM
That's Italy's biggest problem, they half expect Parisse to be the one who sorts it out for them so all eyes go to him regardless of whether they should or not.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2016, 05:07:37 PM
Sorry Cd but that is utterly pathetic defending for Kruis to score.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2016, 05:27:03 PM
Haskell is showing just how poor he is at securing the ball here, he is an even worse 7 than Robshaw.  In the backs Farrell is providing nothing and Care is a poor scrum half as well.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 06, 2016, 05:36:38 PM
Poor last 15 minutes there we're being outplayed at the breakdown.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 06, 2016, 05:36:59 PM
That was a poor quality half from both sides
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2016, 05:41:09 PM
yep, disappointing performance so far, we're too slow at the breakdown, too often the 2nd man to get there is hanging back rather than making sure we win it clean.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 06, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
Far too slow to breakdown.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 06, 2016, 06:01:40 PM
Lovely try there.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 06, 2016, 06:09:20 PM
Too slow there.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 06, 2016, 06:14:38 PM
Mako has had a really positive impact.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2016, 06:34:22 PM
Mike Brown kicks it out on the full under no pressure, exactly why I don't think he's good enough, he just goes braindead at times.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 06, 2016, 08:41:26 PM
Second half was much better, they were sharper and more alert. Need a lot of work, but defence showed a lot of development.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 06, 2016, 10:36:39 PM
Great start today then we slowly but surely got dragged down to Scotland's real level before waking up and really dominating the set pieces. 

I see Murrayfield was packed again, with kids, hence the booing of penalties and conversions, if your Union needs to give tickets away then at least tell the kids to keep quiet.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 07, 2016, 12:39:14 AM
Agree like you said we started well, then tailed off and then got control again. Major positives for me were Billy, Mako and the defence as a team. The negative side was the breakdown and linked to that indiscipline. But overall a win away at a developing Scotland side was pleasing. Jones just needs to add those younger players and start integrating them.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on February 07, 2016, 12:10:20 PM
What's wrong with booing set pieces?It's not snooker.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 07, 2016, 12:47:26 PM
Respect.  You know like all the big digital signs say all around the stadium Respect The Kicker whenever there's a penalty or conversion attempt.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 07, 2016, 02:35:39 PM
Great start today then we slowly but surely got dragged down to Scotland's real level before waking up and really dominating the set pieces. 

I see Murrayfield was packed again, with kids, hence the booing of penalties and conversions, if your Union needs to give tickets away then at least tell the kids to keep quiet.

Was talking to my mate about the boos and whistles. I've noticed over the past few years it's been creeping into the game more.
Whether it's just the England games but the Scots, Irish and Welsh are doing it more, the French and Italians are no better, either.
By far the worse, though, are Argentina.

As for the game.
Pretty scrappy, but, it went pretty much as I expected.
Scotland aren't a bad team these days, and they've come off a good world cup.
I didn't think Scotland really looked like scoring a try as the English defense was very good. 
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 07, 2016, 02:44:54 PM
I think the 'dragged down to their real level' is a bit harsh.  I think they've got a good pack focused on winning quick ball and stopping the opposition from doing the same.  I also think they've got a good set of outside backs who are all capable of breaking the line and scoring tries.  The problem is that 9, 10, 12 and 13 are weak for them, which means they struggle to control the tempo and field position.  It also means that if you set up to screen the chip kick and deal with crash ball through the 10-12 channel they're not going to be much of a threat in open play, which is why they just don't score many tries.  Laidlaw in particular is a poor scrum-half who happens to be a good kicker and he therefore gets game time because Finn Russell is the best 10 they have and his kicking from the tee is abysmal.

when the game 'died' for about half an hour in the middle it was because they were competing at the breakdown and slowing the ball whilst Haskell stood waiting at first receiver instead of doing his job.  A few people starter covering for him early in the 2ndf half and we started to get some control and then when Clifford came on and Haskell moved across we got back on top and looked comfortable.  When you consider that Kvesic came on and dominated the game on Friday (against a very good 7 in Louw) it's very hard to justify Haskell starting there again.

Youngs made a difference as well, Care just isn't good enough to start for England (and shouldn't be in the squad ahead of Simpson and Chudley who are clearly the form 9s in the league).

Aside from that I thought Nowell and Watson were superb, add May, Yarde and Wade and we've got one hell of a set of wingers to choose from, and once we've got them all fit we've got a loot of quality in the centres as well.  By all accounts Burrell was excellent again yesterday so I think he'll come back into the mix before long.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 07, 2016, 04:22:09 PM
Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty.  Well done Wales, Jocks take note.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 07, 2016, 05:14:50 PM
Great game today (as a neutral and a bit of a purist).

This weekend turned out almost to script as I called it earlier in the thread, Italy gave France a real fright and put in a solid performance, England had enough quality to fight off a tough breakdown centred performance from the scots and there was fuck all between the irish and welsh.  I'll stick with my prediction that this is going to be a fantastic 6N.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 07, 2016, 05:16:56 PM
Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty.  Well done Wales, Jocks take note.

I noticed that, too, but as it was in Ireland I'm not surprised.
There were a few shouts/whistles when Priestland was kicking to put Wales ahead, though. Granted, it only sounded like 15 to 20 people.

I feel, however, it may only be the England games that this trend will happen.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 07, 2016, 05:22:00 PM
Great game today (as a neutral and a bit of a purist).

This weekend turned out almost to script as I called it earlier in the thread, Italy gave France a real fright and put in a solid performance, England had enough quality to fight off a tough breakdown centred performance from the scots and there was fuck all between the irish and welsh.  I'll stick with my prediction that this is going to be a fantastic 6N.

Yes, but, it didn't surprise me when I realised how young that French team was. The oldest player in the starting XV was 30. A couple of them looked like school leavers!!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 07, 2016, 05:34:47 PM
It'll be tough for the Irish with a 6 day turnaround before visiting Paris on Saturday.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 07, 2016, 05:45:49 PM
Great game today (as a neutral and a bit of a purist).

This weekend turned out almost to script as I called it earlier in the thread, Italy gave France a real fright and put in a solid performance, England had enough quality to fight off a tough breakdown centred performance from the scots and there was fuck all between the irish and welsh.  I'll stick with my prediction that this is going to be a fantastic 6N.

Yes, but, it didn't surprise me when I realised how young that French team was. The oldest player in the starting XV was 30. A couple of them looked like school leavers!!

Yeah, it won't get any easier either, they have similar problems to England in the football with a national league that's giving very few opportunities for their own youth to come through.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on February 07, 2016, 06:37:45 PM
Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty.  Well done Wales, Jocks take note.

Confirms what I already suspected. The Welsh are weird.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: UK Redsox on February 07, 2016, 07:30:14 PM
Even though I grew up playing/watching rugby rather than football, I've never understood why crowds are expected to stay silent during kicks.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on February 07, 2016, 07:34:13 PM
Yeah, fuck-em. They're rarely quiet in internationals v England, mind...

Anyway, for you rugby bods who know more about the nuances of the game than I this is interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12144734/Scotland-9-England-15-Five-early-hallmarks-of-the-Eddie-Jones-era-after-Six-Nations-victory-in-Calcutta-Cup-clash.html
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: UK Redsox on February 07, 2016, 07:36:09 PM
The first time I heard spectators try to put off a kicker was back in the 80s at HQ, when Aussie fans yelled out "it's a brick" as the England kicker approached the ball
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 07, 2016, 11:57:34 PM
Yeah, fuck-em. They're rarely quiet in internationals v England, mind...

Anyway, for you rugby bods who know more about the nuances of the game than I this is interesting:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12144734/Scotland-9-England-15-Five-early-hallmarks-of-the-Eddie-Jones-era-after-Six-Nations-victory-in-Calcutta-Cup-clash.html

I'm going to have fun with this.

1st GIF - This highlights my problem with Haskell.  You can see the meathead with his red scrum cap and he's making no effort to get near to the breakdown (this is about 1-2 minutes in as well).  I understand that he's just lifted and can't be expected to be at the first breakdown but his job is track across and be ready to be the first man in at the next one and he made no effort to do, you could capture that gif from any point in the first hour and you'd see him doing the same.  If you get chance to watch the full match of someone like Toulon playing compare and contrast with what Armitage does and it's a world of difference.  I played back row (normally 8 because I'm a good ball carrier but I probably had 9-10 games at each of the others as well, along with a similar number at 12 having played wing for 2 years when I first started) so I hate seeing people not doing their job from that position.  On another point watching Nowell on that clip I genuinely think he'll end up playing 13 within a couple of years, he has the technique and desire to be the BOD-like ball winning 13, he tried to rip it a fair few times as well, the more I see the more I think he could be the real star of this side.

GIF 2, can't blame Haskell for this one because he was on the floor but Care is piss poor there, yes he's a 9 and his main job is to pass it out from there but in that situation he has to be willing to get into the mix and secure the ball.

GIF 3 which is a roll on from the last one you do see Haskell join the ruck eventually but that's poor decision making from him, in that situation, as with the first one, he needs to be waiting to secure the ball on the next breakdown rather than commiting to one which is almost complete, took himself out of the game.

GIF 4 that's more like it at the breakdown, oddly Robshaw is at the heart of it, if he;'d been doing that for the last 4 years the world cup may have been very different.

GIF 5 this is good understanding of the laws from Billy V (who had a monster of a game), he was involved in the tackle so he can just latch on immediately, which completely disrupts the scottish ball.

The whole series of gifs about attacking show the advantage of getting quick ball, it means you can shift it 5-10 yards, make a small gain and go again, 5-6 phases like that will generally disrupt a defensive line so long as the ball is coming back quickly.  The only thing I will say as a negative here is that the writer highlights the problem with Farrell at 12, he doesn't offer anything in those situations, he hasn't got the footwork or strength to break the line, when he's at 10 it's a bit of an issue, at 12 it just shows him up as being out of his depth.  I'll never be happy with an England team with him in the centres, it's barely a step up from Barritt as for 99% of the game he brings the same qualities, the slight difference being that he can kick a few of the more difficult penalties for us (but that doesn't out weigh the cost, if you don't trust Ford to kick goals then don't pick him, playing Farrell at 12 and having 2 kickers on the bench is just taking the piss.  Get a proper 12 in (I'd be ok with Devoto) have Farrell on the bench and fuck Goode off back to sarries to be replaced by Daly (who's a better kicker anyway but also brings some pace and ball carrying ability as well).  Longer term I'd be tempted to trust Devoto to step into 10 if needed and get someone like Wade, Yarde or May on the bench as well to give us some real pace and threat to bring in, If you need to replace the full back Watson and Daly offer plenty of cover there, either that or give Cipriani the place he deserves.

The defensive stuff is Gustard through and through, players charging out of the line from 1 man out to force the 10 inside and take away all the width, Sarries have been doing this for years and it's incredibly effective if implemented correctly.  This is also where Haskell can get some praise because he's a fantastic tackler and his fitness means he'll always be willing to do that charging down job, which is ideally suited for a 6 so he's just wearing the wrong shirt number.  This is the key problem for England, we've genuinely got 4-5 top class 6s in the country (along with a 2.5 8s, Nathan Hughes being the decimal because he's not eligible yet) but we're really struggling on 7s so long as they refuse to look at Armitage, Kvesic has a lot of potential but he's still very raw and Harrison will be a superb 7 but he really needs more game time to fully establish himself at club level.

Final point, I hate seeing the scrum from above when Cole is involved, I don't understand how he can possibly get away with that (this is the penultimate gif); Kruis is pratically in the front because Cole has just turned sideways, somehow we won a penalty for that one but it goes against us far more often than not and he's learned that from the Leicester school of cheating like fuck in the front row.  I'd much rather we just kept it dead straight and drove through them like Hartley and Mako are trying to do.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 08, 2016, 12:00:06 AM
Perfect silence for the Irish first penalty.  Well done Wales, Jocks take note.

Confirms what I already suspected. The Welsh are weird.

I don't have a big problem with this but it is something that you tend to see a lot more in the Scotland-England game than most others and I do wonder if that's in part down to the fact that there are loads of none rugby fans who've got tickets to boo the english bastards rather than to watch rugby or support scotland, I doubt you'll hear it in many other games this year.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: adrenachrome on February 08, 2016, 02:58:08 PM
I remember Bill McClaren commentating in the early 70's often railing against "ill mannered booing" at penalty kicks.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 08, 2016, 06:17:17 PM
I'll say one thing that surprised me on Saturday and that's how much Kruis has come on. I thought he was excellent.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on February 08, 2016, 06:45:55 PM
Yeah, hopefully he'll stop making shit films now.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 08, 2016, 09:02:48 PM
I'll say one thing that surprised me on Saturday and that's how much Kruis has come on. I thought he was excellent.

Yeah, he's had a fantastic season and is carrying that form through.  Right now Launchbury is ahead but then there's nothing between Kruis, Lawes and Itoje for the other spot and the bench, all 4 are mobile enough to play back row as well which is fantastic.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 12, 2016, 10:23:19 AM
Launchbury, Marler and Care dropped for Lawes, Mako and Youngs respectively. Itoje makes the bench. I'm a little surprised that other than Care the only cover for the backs in Goode. I'm not too happy with that.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 12, 2016, 10:32:41 AM
Yeah, I don't understand the logic of having two locks on the bench and only two backs either.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 12, 2016, 08:30:21 PM
I'm sticking to the thought that he wants to keep some of the experienced players around whilst we transition, if we're still playing Haskell at 7, Farrell at 12, Care/Youngs at 9 and Goode anywhere this time next year I'll be concerned, and if they're still there in 2018 then I'll be devastated, those choices just don't match to his words and I can't believe he'll stick by them for long.  This summer will be telling anyway as he has a completely free choice on the squad then rather than being hamstrung by the central contracts/restrictions on changes.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 12, 2016, 10:08:39 PM
Launchbury, Marler and Care dropped for Lawes, Mako and Youngs respectively. Itoje makes the bench. I'm a little surprised that other than Care the only cover for the backs in Goode. I'm not too happy with that.

Not really dropped,
Eddie Jones has said that he will pick 'horses for courses'
He said that this will be a faster game, so he, obviously,  feels these guys offer more mobility.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 13, 2016, 04:21:41 PM
The French are going to be a danger now.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 13, 2016, 05:34:40 PM
Scotland v Wales at HT is making England's performance look more impressive.
I've got to say, I like the way Wales play, despite currently losing.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 13, 2016, 06:44:59 PM
I don't particularly like the way Wales play, it's all about physicality. Scotland need a win against Ireland or France.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 13, 2016, 06:48:01 PM
Yep, Wales have focused on being bigger and stronger than the opposition for a few years, it's reasonably effective but I'm not a fan.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 13, 2016, 10:16:32 PM
The French are going to be a danger now.

Not so sure.
Ireland were pretty poor today.
I think England, Wales and Scotland will beat them
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 13, 2016, 11:56:00 PM
France were awful for an hour, it was only because Ireland didn't take the points when they were on top that France were still in the game, neither of those sides worry me at all, Ireland are turning out exactly as I expected.  They hit their peak before the world cup and have been on the way down since, the club sides are evidence of that and the poor club form for most of the squad has translated to the national team.  France really don't scare me, they have some quality but they've lost too much experience and there are massive gaps in their team, significantly I think they're (comparatively) very weak at 8,9 and 10 which are pretty much the worst positions to be struggling for. Wales look easily ruffled so if, like scotland did for an hour, we can match them in physicality I can see them panicking, they started to today before scotland dropped off and let them get a couple of quick scores.  The cautionary note would be that North always has the ability to create something from nothing.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 14, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 14, 2016, 05:33:25 PM
Terrible first 50 and then much better in last 30. I was really impressed by Itoje.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 14, 2016, 05:45:31 PM
Cole is a liability at times especially at the breakdown, he's just a clumsy oaf, little nouse or guile just an oaf.

Line out was shaky at times, unlike last weeks masterclass display from Hartley, what was it 14 from 15 last week?

Itoje slotted straight in and looks an absolute beast.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 14, 2016, 06:53:44 PM
Yep positives were the impact of the bench, Itoje in particular and the ability to keep pressing. Negatives were sluggishness and imprecision in first 50 mins, Haskell and for me Farrell at 12 just not working. It's either got to be Ford or Farrell at 10, because at the moment they both appear to be battling for who has ultimate control and it ends up with neither of them having control.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 14, 2016, 09:50:46 PM
Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.

Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 15, 2016, 07:42:19 PM
Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.

Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.

The MOTM decision was ridiculed on the BBC highlights show.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 15, 2016, 07:55:34 PM
Yep positives were the impact of the bench, Itoje in particular and the ability to keep pressing. Negatives were sluggishness and imprecision in first 50 mins, Haskell and for me Farrell at 12 just not working. It's either got to be Ford or Farrell at 10, because at the moment they both appear to be battling for who has ultimate control and it ends up with neither of them having control.

I agree with the Ford/Farrell comments, we seem to have two players doing half a job whereas - at some point in the future - we'll have Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi and Daly as more specialist centres.  I'd prefer Farrell and Ford to be competing for one shirt.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 15, 2016, 08:56:20 PM
Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.

Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.

Cole improved after I posted that but he was awful in the scrum and at the breakdown for the first 50, it was only when they started to tire that he took some control (he was also helped by Marler making the other side stable so his constant inward drive looked less illegal).  Youngs was utter shite, I don't care what the motm award says, his passing just isn't good enough, neither of the 9s should be anywhere near the squad though so I hope that changes come the summer.

The Farrell at 12 experiment is really frustrating.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 15, 2016, 09:54:42 PM
Horribly poor 50 from England, Cole and Youngs in particular have been utter shite.

Yet Youngs was man MotM and the pundits were saying how immense Cole was.

Cole improved after I posted that but he was awful in the scrum and at the breakdown for the first 50, it was only when they started to tire that he took some control (he was also helped by Marler making the other side stable so his constant inward drive looked less illegal).  Youngs was utter shite, I don't care what the motm award says, his passing just isn't good enough, neither of the 9s should be anywhere near the squad though so I hope that changes come the summer.

The Farrell at 12 experiment is really frustrating.

Not disagreeing.
I was a winger/full back, so the dark arts of the front row were way above me ☺

Was talking about the Farrell experiment at 12 today, we reckon it's a stop gap until Tuilangi is fit, then he'll be back at 10
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 15, 2016, 10:19:03 PM

Was talking about the Farrell experiment at 12 today, we reckon it's a stop gap until Tuilangi is fit, then he'll be back at 10

I know that Ford is off form but wouldn't Tuilagi benefit from a fly-half that stands a bit flatter and can pick his angles a bit better than Farrell?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 15, 2016, 10:26:42 PM
I think Slade will be the long term 12.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 16, 2016, 07:03:26 AM
I think it was Dean Ryan who said at the weekend that Slade is the best young #10 in the world, so that's three fly half's that are potentially world class (emphasis on potential). 

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on what the backs line will be in a couple of years time.  My simple theory is that one centre should be a 'crash' centre whereas the other should be more fleet of foot (and mind) however I'm unsure what the conversion is with regards to which one is inside centre and which is outside, and how that blend in turn affects the selection of fly half.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on February 16, 2016, 04:26:41 PM
What's happened to Wade? Wasn't he the future just a couple of years ago? If it's the one I'm thinking about - played blindingly on the last tour of Argentina.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 16, 2016, 06:28:35 PM
I think it was Dean Ryan who said at the weekend that Slade is the best young #10 in the world, so that's three fly half's that are potentially world class (emphasis on potential). 

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on what the backs line will be in a couple of years time.  My simple theory is that one centre should be a 'crash' centre whereas the other should be more fleet of foot (and mind) however I'm unsure what the conversion is with regards to which one is inside centre and which is outside, and how that blend in turn affects the selection of fly half.

I prefer a crash/breakdown 13 and then someone a bit more creative at 12.  That said they don't have to be a big 13, they have to break the line and they need to try to do some 7 style work at the breakdown. JJ is near perfect and should be the safest shirt in the backs.  At 12 I want a kicking option, but also a good passer and able to exploit space.  Devoto and Slade fit the bill.  The best thing is both can cover 10 so 1 in the team the other on the bench along with a 9 and Daly gives us good options.

Wade is still a stunning winger who will score tries at any level, I hope he gets his chance but May, Watson and Nowell haven't done anything wrong so it's a bit tough on him.  Watson is the class act on the wing though, he showed flashes of brilliance at.the weekend
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 17, 2016, 01:31:21 PM
I think it was Dean Ryan who said at the weekend that Slade is the best young #10 in the world, so that's three fly half's that are potentially world class (emphasis on potential). 

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions on what the backs line will be in a couple of years time.  My simple theory is that one centre should be a 'crash' centre whereas the other should be more fleet of foot (and mind) however I'm unsure what the conversion is with regards to which one is inside centre and which is outside, and how that blend in turn affects the selection of fly half.

I prefer a crash/breakdown 13 and then someone a bit more creative at 12.  That said they don't have to be a big 13, they have to break the line and they need to try to do some 7 style work at the breakdown. JJ is near perfect and should be the safest shirt in the backs.  At 12 I want a kicking option, but also a good passer and able to exploit space.  Devoto and Slade fit the bill.  The best thing is both can cover 10 so 1 in the team the other on the bench along with a 9 and Daly gives us good options.

Wade is still a stunning winger who will score tries at any level, I hope he gets his chance but May, Watson and Nowell haven't done anything wrong so it's a bit tough on him.  Watson is the class act on the wing though, he showed flashes of brilliance at.the weekend

No mention of Tuilagi?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 17, 2016, 02:26:15 PM
I don't know where he fits, great ball carrier (probably the best tinth e country) but his passing and offloading is suspect, his discipline is poor, he has no kicking game/game management and he's barely been fit for 2-3 years.  I'd love him to really work on his passing and offloading because he could be great competition for the 13 shirt with JJ and Daly.  My real issue is that in all the time he's been involved England have been a better team when he's been missing or had less of the ball (even though when he's had lots of ball he's won games on his own) - I consider him, at this point, as a rugby equivalent of Darren Bent as of a few years ago in that his own performances tend to come at the expense of the broader team performances and the net result is a team that isn't quite the sum of it's parts.  I put this down to him being called into the England squad as a 18 year old with less than 10 games under his belt and being told he was the best thing ever, it's meant that no one has worked on the clear weaknesses in his game that were fine when he was an 18 year old rookie but now he's 24 he needs to have fixed if he wants to reach the BOD/Nonu/Mauger/etc standard that he had the potential to reach.  I think England and Tigers have a lot of responsibility for this.

All that said I honestly believe he's better suited to the backrow and I'd love to see him have a go at 6 alongside Armitage and Billy V - that would be the most brutal backrow ever assembled, won't ever happen though.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 18, 2016, 02:02:03 PM
I don't know where he fits, great ball carrier (probably the best tinth e country) but his passing and offloading is suspect, his discipline is poor, he has no kicking game/game management and he's barely been fit for 2-3 years.  I'd love him to really work on his passing and offloading because he could be great competition for the 13 shirt with JJ and Daly.  My real issue is that in all the time he's been involved England have been a better team when he's been missing or had less of the ball (even though when he's had lots of ball he's won games on his own) - I consider him, at this point, as a rugby equivalent of Darren Bent as of a few years ago in that his own performances tend to come at the expense of the broader team performances and the net result is a team that isn't quite the sum of it's parts.  I put this down to him being called into the England squad as a 18 year old with less than 10 games under his belt and being told he was the best thing ever, it's meant that no one has worked on the clear weaknesses in his game that were fine when he was an 18 year old rookie but now he's 24 he needs to have fixed if he wants to reach the BOD/Nonu/Mauger/etc standard that he had the potential to reach.  I think England and Tigers have a lot of responsibility for this.

All that said I honestly believe he's better suited to the backrow and I'd love to see him have a go at 6 alongside Armitage and Billy V - that would be the most brutal backrow ever assembled, won't ever happen though.

Interesting thanks.

The lack of development you described above (from debut) is one of the reason I did not mind that Daly and Itoje were not capped straight away.  We are too keen - especially in football - to select young players and herald them as the saviour that they mentally stop learning.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on February 20, 2016, 03:29:24 PM
Tuilagi makes things happen and for that reason he would start for me in the centres until we can two that compliment each other and are both an attacking threat.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 20, 2016, 06:05:44 PM
He does, and that's why he's going to be involved, because every coach that comes in at England or Tigers is going to want to be the one that makes him world class, but I honestly think it harms the overall team to include him right now.

I watched the quins v tigers game last night and it's true that Manu was the only back Leicester had who looked a threat but that was as much because of him (and how quins targeted him) as it was a lack of quality elsewhere.  They had Jean de Villiers (one of the best centres in world rugby in the last decade or so) at 13 and he barely touched the ball, can you imagine having JJ, Watson, Nowell all outside him and them getting 2-3 touches a game each, that's what he's done for most of his career and it's effective if you want to play largely 10 man percentage based rugby and you've picked outside backs who are there for their defensive ability but with the talent we have it would be a massive waste.

I still think he has something to offer but I really don't want England to throw away all the progress I can see coming by going backwards and picking a 12 who honestly offers little more than Barritt in terms of the expansive game we should be moving towards.  I'd accept him at 13 but, on merit, JJ is well ahead of him in that position and Daly deserves a chance as well.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 22, 2016, 02:48:18 PM
Luther Burrell recalled to squad. That's good news, I think he was hard done by in the Sam Burgess debacle, has generally played well for England.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 22, 2016, 06:53:52 PM
Luther Burrell recalled to squad. That's good news, I think he was hard done by in the Sam Burgess debacle, has generally played well for England.

Yep, he's been in great form since Christmas as well.  At his best he runs fantastic lines and his offloading game is better than anyone else we have.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 23, 2016, 07:46:31 PM
He hasn't made the match day squad, but pleased to see Daly in there. Bit surprised to see Lawes drop out, but I guess Itoje gives us flexibility.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 23, 2016, 08:49:18 PM
He hasn't made the match day squad, but pleased to see Daly in there. Bit surprised to see Lawes drop out, but I guess Itoje gives us flexibility.

There's not much experimentation going on and I suspect the starting line up will be the same as it was against scotland.  I hope he's going to take a proper look at the negatives from the last 2 games though because I'm far from convinced that a back row with Haskell at 7 will be good enough long term and Farrell just out right isn't good enough to play centre, I don't rate him as a flyhalf but he's at least competent at the main parts of the game, at 12 he looks out of his depth, I really wish Slade had been fit.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Proposition Joe on February 24, 2016, 01:30:53 PM
Not Daly in for Ford and Farrell at stand off?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 24, 2016, 04:36:21 PM
Not Daly in for Ford and Farrell at stand off?

I doubt it, daly and JJ are both better at 13, giving someone their debut in a position they've barely played is risky and you wouldn't move JJ given he's showing signs of becoming a genuinely world class 13.  If he brings Daly it's a big statement of his belief in him.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cheltenhamlion on February 24, 2016, 06:06:08 PM
I presume Kvesic gets fucked off out of the squad again? In favour of Haskell? Mind bending stuff.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 24, 2016, 07:47:17 PM
Launchbury injured again, so Lawes back in.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 24, 2016, 10:32:21 PM
Launchbury injured again, so Lawes back in.

Will be interesting to see who starts now, I suspect Lawes will leapfrop Itoje into the starting 15 because as with Daly I think starting him this soon is a bit of a risk and if you're going to take risks you should be looking to take them elsewhere (such as keeping Kvesic and dropping Haskell).
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 25, 2016, 10:08:07 AM
Itoje to start, Marler returns.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 25, 2016, 11:56:47 AM
I'm surprised by that, it's a massive call to start him against the champions with no previous experience (he's capped but as a backrow not a 2nd row).  His pace and power do add another dimension though.

Marler for Mako is just good sense though, Mako is poor in the scrum but fantastic in the loose, he should have his name carved on the bench and be given 25-30 minutes every match.

Persisting with Farrell out of position at 12 is getting a bit silly now and I really wish he'd done something about the scrum halves because neither of them are in particularly good form.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 25, 2016, 12:46:31 PM
I'm excited to see Itoje play, he's just got an aura about him and I think he's going to be a top player. I'm hoping Farrell at 12 will stop once Slade and probably Tuilagi are fit.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 25, 2016, 12:53:09 PM
I'm excited to see Itoje play, he's just got an aura about him and I think he's going to be a top player. I'm hoping Farrell at 12 will stop once Slade and probably Tuilagi are fit.

Slade I agree, Manu is never a 12.

I agree on Itoje, I just worry that this 6N is too early for him, I'd have had him with the squad from this time last year but I wouldn't have him starting yet.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 25, 2016, 02:26:45 PM
Manu might not be a 12, but Jones sees him as one so I reckon we'll see him there.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 25, 2016, 02:56:29 PM
I suppose Itoje's risk is mitigated to a degree by playing alongside his clubmate Kruis.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 25, 2016, 06:50:23 PM
Apparently Ireland have big injury problems, so, won't be at full strength.
This might be behind selection of Itoje.
As mentioned, he'll be alongside his team mate which will help.
Looking forward to this game
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 25, 2016, 09:01:15 PM
Was at a do with Conor O'Shea tonight. He's very impressive by the way. He reckons Ireland have picked a team to do a specific job - very physical in the backs. But he tipped England to win anyway.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 26, 2016, 09:43:53 PM
This period of France being a really poor side much be unprecedented. They've been rubbish for an age.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 26, 2016, 09:55:56 PM
This period of France being a really poor side much be unprecedented. They've been rubbish for an age.

They remind me of villa.  They look like a load of individuals and without a collective identity.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 26, 2016, 09:57:39 PM
As Casteneigede was saying at half-time, the French league not only doesn't support the national team, it actively undermines it. Very similar to English football.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: lovejoy on February 26, 2016, 11:15:42 PM
..and English rugby. The Celtic nations have no meaningful league programme. They play Champions Cup and Internationals and the rest of it is warm up matches.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 26, 2016, 11:30:37 PM
Not really. The England team could benefit from more centralised control of the clubs, but the England national team still takes ultimate priority which isn't like the football team.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: lovejoy on February 27, 2016, 05:48:21 AM
Our players play more meaningful club matches than the Celts. They get more tired, injuries etc.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 09:31:18 AM
Yes but I'd say France's main issue, like the English Premier League in football, is French players not getting the opportunity.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 27, 2016, 10:19:16 AM
Yeah, the English league is doing a stellar job of unearthing talent right now, our record in the Junior World Cup in recent years is evidence of that and even just watching a couple of games you'll see a handful of younger players who have huge amounts of quality.  As I've said a few times right now our first 23 is decent (in all honesty we should have got the semi-final of the world cup) but once you start going to the 'depth' squad like the saxons and the U20s we get stronger and stronger.  That's down to the league.  Every team playing 30+ genuinely competitive matches every season, combined with the international windows and the greater need to rest players has meant that having younger players they can rely on has become a necessity and most clubs have done a great job of bringing through 2-3 young players pretty much every season for the last 5-6 years.  It all started in about 1999 when Woodward and the RFU started to encourage the development of much stronger academies in the fairly recently professional clubs.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 27, 2016, 03:55:50 PM
shoved a few quid on scotland leading at half time and italy winning, these penalties are frustrating me.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 27, 2016, 04:58:31 PM
Piss poor from Cole in the scrum again to concede 3
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 05:13:13 PM
So many penalties.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 27, 2016, 05:23:11 PM
That's poor from the ref and the TMO. Not a try but not a penalty either.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 27, 2016, 05:28:34 PM
That's the second time Youngs has thrown a 5 metre pass well over the head near the Irish line. Killed all momentum both times.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 05:29:29 PM
Not precise enough.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 06:22:08 PM
Good from England now, much better.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 06:24:35 PM
What a tackle by Nowell.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 27, 2016, 06:25:35 PM
Indeed. And here's Day at 12.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 27, 2016, 06:28:44 PM
Youngs was poor again and Haskell is a fucking idiot but Watson has been excellent and deserved his try.  Billy V is the player we hoped for now, absolutely superb performance today.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 06:31:55 PM
Piss poor from Hartley and Cole there.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Proposition Joe on February 27, 2016, 06:32:38 PM
Making this much harder work than it should be against a very ordinary Ireland team.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 27, 2016, 07:00:21 PM
Poor discipline today, but hugely impressed by Billy, Itoje and Clifford.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 27, 2016, 07:05:57 PM
I thought there were bits today that showed we're going the right direction, We really need to get Haskell out of the team, I'd much rather we start with Clifford from this 23.  I still think scrum half is a problem, Care improved things before his yellow (which was harsh) but I just don't rate Youngs, his defence for their try was awful.

Itoje looked comfortable, Billy was superb, Watson and Nowell both did really well when they got ball and yes, Clifford looked good when he came on.  Daly was unlucky that he came on and then we went to 14 men almost immediately and any chance of him doing something special went out of the window.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 27, 2016, 07:27:34 PM
Yeah that's pretty much my reaction too, although I thought Haskell, who i've never been a fan of, was having a really good game until his yellow. Care's yellow was harsh, I'm not sure how you roll away when three people immediately dive on top of you.

We're so blessed at lock at the moment, four outstanding players to choose from. Wish we could trade one of them for a proper 7.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on February 27, 2016, 08:16:09 PM
Impressed by Watson today.  He's previously seemed a bit like darren bent to me, whereas today I think his decision making and in particular appetite for running from deep having received kicks made me think he is going to be class.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on February 27, 2016, 08:25:34 PM
Impressed by Watson today.  He's previously seemed a bit like darren bent to me, whereas today I think his decision making and in particular appetite for running from deep having received kicks made me think he is going to be class.

Yeah, I think he'll shift to full back in due course.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 27, 2016, 10:37:51 PM
You've got to remember Watson has only just turned 22 so he's far from the finished article but his potential is frightening.  The bit really early on where he had a standing start and left the Irish guy for dead is what he's done to people at every age group and he's getting the confidence to do it at this level now, which is significant.  I think Lancaster knew he had a star but didn't know what to do with him, which is why he never really fitted in.

I think he could play all across the back 3 but I'd also like to see him shift to 15 so we can pick Nowell and then May/Wade/JJ(if we want Daly or Manu at 13).  I think 12 will be the really big call in the next 12 months though, Slade will get a chance, Manu will probably be looked at there, Devoto is right on the edge of the squad already and I predict Mallinder will force his way in before long, he's probably the form back in Europe right now, if he keeps this up for the rest of the season he'll be hard to ignore.

Yeah that's pretty much my reaction too, although I thought Haskell, who i've never been a fan of, was having a really good game until his yellow. Care's yellow was harsh, I'm not sure how you roll away when three people immediately dive on top of you.

We're so blessed at lock at the moment, four outstanding players to choose from. Wish we could trade one of them for a proper 7.

With Haskell him doing something ridiculously stupid is almost guaranteed, he's spent his entire career making stupid decisions at terrible times, today was just further evidence that he's a liability (I think the same about Brown as well, I know he can be effective and a lot of people rate him but I find his decision making shocking at times and he regularly costs us points).  For Care he knew what he was doing but it was a harsh yellow.  Whilst talking about harsh decisions the penalty for the Hartley double movement was a truly pathetic decision.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 27, 2016, 11:52:43 PM
Yeah that's pretty much my reaction too, although I thought Haskell, who i've never been a fan of, was having a really good game until his yellow. Care's yellow was harsh, I'm not sure how you roll away when three people immediately dive on top of you.

We're so blessed at lock at the moment, four outstanding players to choose from. Wish we could trade one of them for a proper 7.

Thought the ref was poor today. For me both yellows were harsh.
Haskell was comitted into a tackle. How does an 18 stone chap pull out once committed?  They kept showing a slowed down version which is always going to make it look worse.
Care was unlucky, too.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on February 28, 2016, 12:08:24 AM
Nah Haskell was a definite yellow. Thought he played well until he went off and I think it was noticeable that ireland's most successful period came when he went off. As for Care, I don't know, I thought it was a 50/50 decision but he went over the top of the ball purposely to slow it down. Once the penalties given the yellow has to follow.

The rule I think is crazy - other than stuff around the scrum - is the deliberate knock on. Yes, its deliberate because a player is trying to intercept the ball but unless they fly out of the line like a keeper turning the ball around the corner then I think that players should be encouraged to try and snatch the ball. The only 'penalty' should be a knock on and scrum. You may say that it would encourage players to then and deliberately knock it on at the risk of only giving away a scrum, but I'd counter that by saying that early breaks would either see opposition players caught offside or teams would have runners expoliting gaps of early breaks from the opposition.

As for scrums. Why doesn't the clock stop when a scrum is called and only re-ster when the referee says 'engage'?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 28, 2016, 09:19:18 AM
Hartleys double movement typified the ridiculous officiating this weekend, Friday night was worse and definitely added to the bore fest that was the Wales France game (mind you Wales deserved nothing for their cynicism and the French are just shit). Haskell's late tackle carried no malice or intent and yet we see the replay over and over again in slow motion.

How about we have a TMO rule that says 3 reviews for foul play and only 1 can be in slow motion.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dave Cooper please on February 28, 2016, 11:26:11 AM
Caught a bit of the England game on the radio yesterday.
They played music after a try.
They can fuck off.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 28, 2016, 02:00:29 PM
Hartleys double movement typified the ridiculous officiating this weekend, Friday night was worse and definitely added to the bore fest that was the Wales France game (mind you Wales deserved nothing for their cynicism and the French are just shit). Haskell's late tackle carried no malice or intent and yet we see the replay over and over again in slow motion.

How about we have a TMO rule that says 3 reviews for foul play and only 1 can be in slow motion.


Haskell's yellow wasn't because it was late, it was because it was a shoulder check followed by a feeble attempt to wrap the arm that ended up being around the neck anyway.  Basically he got a yellow for being a lazy fuck with the attempted tackle and it was perfectly legitimate.  Before that I thought he'd been ok but nothing more, I'd say the same about Robshaw as well.  Kruis, Itoje and Billy V were superb and dragged the whole performance of the pack up a level, the latter is comfortably the player of the tournament so far.  In the front row Marler was ok, Hartley was good and Cole got better after a poor start, he still worries me though.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cheltenhamlion on February 28, 2016, 03:14:36 PM
Haskell out, Kvesic in.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 28, 2016, 07:54:59 PM
During the Wasps game (they were fucking brilliant by the way and Wade made as good try saving tackle as you'll ever see) there was a lot of talk about how to accommodate Hughes when he becomes available in July (He's already stated he wants to represent England is looking forward to it) and the common belief was moving Billy to 6 (sarries have played him there a fair bit as well). With Itoje now in the mix in the 2nd row you've got 3 genuine back row forwards without picking a 7.  That means you can pick based on specialist skills because ball carrying, tackling, etc really aren't things thatyou need to 7 to worry about.  At that point you just pick someone who will annoy the shit out the opposition, slow the ball down and win a few turnovers.  Haskell isn't that player, in the premiership Kvesic and Harrison are the viable options right now and Kvesic is a little ahead so I agree, he needs to be involved.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 28, 2016, 08:05:31 PM
Haskell out, Kvesic in.

I'd say Haskell out Clifford in. In the short time he was on the pitch he showed exactly how good he can be as a 7.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 28, 2016, 08:54:09 PM
Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck. 

Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.   
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on February 28, 2016, 10:29:12 PM
Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck. 

Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.

Yes. I saw that.
Think he'd be unlucky to get a ban as, my view was, an Irish lad  pushed into him to clear him out forcing boot to face.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on February 28, 2016, 11:06:59 PM
Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck. 

Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.

Yes. I saw that.
Think he'd be unlucky to get a ban as, my view was, an Irish lad  pushed into him to clear him out forcing boot to face.

I'm not so sure, it was dangerous (and aggressive) enough that I think they may throw a week or 2 at him.  I very nearly wrote this yesterday as part of a 'Brown makes stupid decisions just like Haskell' rant that I decided against.  I think most people on here know my opinion of Mike Brown (and probably think it's incredibly harsh) so I try not to rant too much and he is solid under the high ball, I just think he's an idiot and that slips into his game too easily.  If he was clearly the best option we had in his position I'd be less critical (see my views on Dylan Hartley) but people woith big flaws who I don't see as essential to the squad are liabilities and right now Haskell and Brown are on that list (and Cole is very close to joining them because I'm fed up with him refusing the push straight in the scrum and he's getting penalised for it regularly now).  Youngs is on dangerous ground as well but that's only because Simpson, Chudley and recently Robson (who was immense again today) are all significantly better than him.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on March 01, 2016, 08:26:32 AM
Sounds like Mike Brown may be cited for using his boot on a ball being held onto by an Irish player on the ground not releasing the ball once tackled in a ruck. 

Just seen that Wade tackle, brilliant.

Yes. I saw that.
Think he'd be unlucky to get a ban as, my view was, an Irish lad  pushed into him to clear him out forcing boot to face.

I'm not so sure, it was dangerous (and aggressive) enough that I think they may throw a week or 2 at him.  I very nearly wrote this yesterday as part of a 'Brown makes stupid decisions just like Haskell' rant that I decided against.  I think most people on here know my opinion of Mike Brown (and probably think it's incredibly harsh) so I try not to rant too much and he is solid under the high ball, I just think he's an idiot and that slips into his game too easily.  If he was clearly the best option we had in his position I'd be less critical (see my views on Dylan Hartley) but people woith big flaws who I don't see as essential to the squad are liabilities and right now Haskell and Brown are on that list (and Cole is very close to joining them because I'm fed up with him refusing the push straight in the scrum and he's getting penalised for it regularly now).  Youngs is on dangerous ground as well but that's only because Simpson, Chudley and recently Robson (who was immense again today) are all significantly better than him.

No action to be taken.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 01, 2016, 08:32:01 AM
Indeed, I think he's pretty lucky there.

I see Manu and Ewers are added to the training squad.  I hope they don't leapfrog Daly and Kvesic who haven't really been given a chance yet.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 01, 2016, 11:42:57 AM
If he's fit then I'd start Tuilagi against Wales as they will just try and bulldoze their way through the centres. I doubt he'll offer too much attacking wise in all honesty but his power and strength should be enough to keep Wales at bay and attack them when we do get the ball in open play - which i doubt will be often.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 01, 2016, 12:13:15 PM
I think if they develop Manu correctly he could be our version on Nonu, but in saying that I fully acknowledge he needs to improve his passing and vision.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cheltenhamlion on March 01, 2016, 07:09:36 PM
Clifford for Robshaw, Kvesic  for Haskell is how I would do it. And drop Youngs to boot.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 01, 2016, 07:34:43 PM
Clifford for Robshaw, Kvesic  for Haskell is how I would do it. And drop Youngs to boot.

The problem with dropping Youngs is that the only alternative is Care, neither are playing well enough to be in the squad, Simpson, Chudley and Robson are the 3 quality 9s in the league right now, Robson in particular has been electric for the last month.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: rob_bridge on March 03, 2016, 11:28:23 AM
Aside from first half of Wales v Ireland think it has been a poor tournament.

Scotland are the most entertaining team
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 03, 2016, 12:20:51 PM
Aside from first half of Wales v Ireland think it has been a poor tournament.

Scotland are the most entertaining team

It's going almost exactly as I suspected.

England look like a squad put together to play one way but being asked/trained to play a different game.
France look like a team where the stars of their domestic league are all foreign and they don't know where the spark will come from.
Ireland look like they've lost all the leaders in their squad.
Italy look like a side that's trying to do the right things but doesn't have the club structure to support it.
Scotland look like a team trying to play the right way but with players not quite able to believe they are good enough to do it.
Wales look like a team who are assembled to bully the opposition and kick points when they get chance and then hope that one of their crashes through the middle leads to a try.

Ireland have the most sympathy from me, losing O'Brien for the tournament when he's the only world class player they have left was a kick in a balls.  I'm not sure I agree with you on Scotland though, I understand what they're trying to do but I just don't think they have the quality (especially at 10, 12 and 13) to play the game they're trying to so it looks a bit like a waste of effort and I really don't see them doing much more than we've seen already.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: rob_bridge on March 03, 2016, 02:30:10 PM
Aside from first half of Wales v Ireland think it has been a poor tournament.

Scotland are the most entertaining team

It's going almost exactly as I suspected.

England look like a squad put together to play one way but being asked/trained to play a different game.
France look like a team where the stars of their domestic league are all foreign and they don't know where the spark will come from.
Ireland look like they've lost all the leaders in their squad.
Italy look like a side that's trying to do the right things but doesn't have the club structure to support it.
Scotland look like a team trying to play the right way but with players not quite able to believe they are good enough to do it.
Wales look like a team who are assembled to bully the opposition and kick points when they get chance and then hope that one of their crashes through the middle leads to a try.

Ireland have the most sympathy from me, losing O'Brien for the tournament when he's the only world class player they have left was a kick in a balls.  I'm not sure I agree with you on Scotland though, I understand what they're trying to do but I just don't think they have the quality (especially at 10, 12 and 13) to play the game they're trying to so it looks a bit like a waste of effort and I really don't see them doing much more than we've seen already.

Yes I have sympathy with Ireland. Players like O'Connell (for Ireland) come along every 40 years. He was seriously that good.

With Scotland I meant they are trying to play a form of rugby even without the talent or depth.

Your other assessments are spot on and reason why Wales, who certainly have the best match day squad in terms of quality, do so utterly average against Southern Hemisphere Nations.

They remind of England in the early to mid 90's. Effective, mainly boring and are capable of more adventure.

Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 03, 2016, 03:42:51 PM
I agree on Scotland, I think it's commendable, I just don't agree that they're the most entertaining team but that's largely because I get so frustrated by basic handling errors that it puts me off and I can't concentrate on what they're actually trying to do.  The worst thing is I think they have a decent pack for the game they want to play and a good set of outside backs but Finn Russell is easily the worst 10 in the tournament and their centres aren't much better either.  On top of that I think Laidlaw is a barely acceptable 9 who keeps his spot on the strength of his kicking which adds yet another reason that Russell needs to be replaced.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on March 03, 2016, 09:25:21 PM
I agree on Scotland, I think it's commendable, I just don't agree that they're the most entertaining team but that's largely because I get so frustrated by basic handling errors that it puts me off and I can't concentrate on what they're actually trying to do.  The worst thing is I think they have a decent pack for the game they want to play and a good set of outside backs but Finn Russell is easily the worst 10 in the tournament and their centres aren't much better either.  On top of that I think Laidlaw is a barely acceptable 9 who keeps his spot on the strength of his kicking which adds yet another reason that Russell needs to be replaced.

Was saying this to my mate, that if Scotland had a Gregor Townsend at 10 I think they'd be a threat.
I think Laidlaw's a decent 9 given whats outside him. It would be interesting to see him with a good 10 outside.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 06, 2016, 05:38:36 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Villa in Denmark on March 06, 2016, 10:29:24 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Could be worse.  Viasat have the rights to the 6 nations and the World Cup over here.

The world cup final coverage ended up being the last 30 minutes live followed by a complete re-run of the game as they'd decided to show PSG v Barcelona ladies handball instead.
The 6 nations matches have so far been the Friday evening game re-run at about midnight, no coverage of the Saturday game and the Sunday game at about 2am on Monday morning.

Apart from this weekend where everything is either Tennis from Indian Wells, Boxing or serious pant wetting over Kevin Magnussen returning to F1.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2016, 06:58:31 AM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Could be worse.  Viasat have the rights to the 6 nations and the World Cup over here.

The world cup final coverage ended up being the last 30 minutes live followed by a complete re-run of the game as they'd decided to show PSG v Barcelona ladies handball instead.
The 6 nations matches have so far been the Friday evening game re-run at about midnight, no coverage of the Saturday game and the Sunday game at about 2am on Monday morning.

Apart from this weekend where everything is either Tennis from Indian Wells, Boxing or serious pant wetting over Kevin Magnussen returning to F1.

I remember similar problems in Norway, even if they covered the rugby it was, as you say, a few minutes here and there where it didn't interrupt their other programming.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 07, 2016, 01:18:17 PM
Slightly off topic but BT Sport's coverage is generally excellent of club rugby nowadays.  Often three or four matches and decent analysis programmes too. 
I also enjoy the amount of European football that they show.  It's almost as if I can completely ignore the Premier League now and pretend it is not happening.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2016, 03:41:54 PM
Slightly off topic but BT Sport's coverage is generally excellent of club rugby nowadays.  Often three or four matches and decent analysis programmes too. 
I also enjoy the amount of European football that they show.  It's almost as if I can completely ignore the Premier League now and pretend it is not happening.

I agree, slightly too much 'tigers' focus in the make up of the commentary team and the Welsh bird is annoying is fuck but other than that I think they do a really good job.  I like the 3 commentators idea as well because they have, generally, proper insight from forwards and backs perspective and then a 'real' commentator to hold it together.  Flatman, Monye and Dallaglio in particular are excellent at giving real insight into what's going on and I love the fact that they often disagree, rugby, like cricket, has commentary that's leagues ahead of football.

The other thing I love about the rugby is that they own their own footage so you get this - Link (http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/?WT.mc_id=mpType:Display*Asset:Display_Ad*CmpID:PRTV*Other:Video) - which is fantastic if you've missed a game or 2.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2016, 03:45:05 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Do you try to watch the club game?  English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Rotterdam on March 07, 2016, 07:50:59 PM
I had a cracking Year 7 rugby lesson today. Having been teaching for 20+ years and personally only played three competitive games of egg chase in my life, I really enjoy teaching it. The kids were great; rucks, mauls, tap pens and no scrums. Brill.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on March 07, 2016, 08:30:44 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Do you try to watch the club game?  English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.

Thinking of getting a season ticket to either Wasps or Worcester next season and pick my Villa games.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 07, 2016, 09:01:25 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Do you try to watch the club game?  English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.

I can't say I do really. I occasionally check how Moseley are getting on but can't say I'm overly bothered. I also like Glasgow to do well in Pro12/Europe but, again, not too arsed. I think if I start watching any more sport my girlfriend will definitely dump me! Anyhow I couldn't support franchise scum Wasps.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2016, 09:22:25 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Do you try to watch the club game?  English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.

Thinking of getting a season ticket to either Wasps or Worcester next season and pick my Villa games.

If you're neutral I recommend wasps, I suspect they'll challenge for the title next year, Hughes, Robson/Simpson and Cipriani is a phenomenal 8, 9, 10 and with Hallai, Wade and Daly outside they're going to expose a lot of teams, there's loads of pace, quick ball from the ruck and a 10 who can hit a sixpence.  I'm thinking of getting a season ticket there myself.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 07, 2016, 09:36:19 PM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on March 07, 2016, 09:39:44 PM
Annoying that the rugby never seems to be on when I have the telly to myself and Villa aren't playing.

Do you try to watch the club game?  English club rugby is truly brilliant right now, there are 4-5 teams that are great to watch, I recommend Wasps and Worcester to anyone who likes a more flowing game (Worcester are the scots of the league, trying to do everything the right way but just not quite good enough to pull it off) and then Bath, Exeter, Gloucester and Saints are all capable of looking excellent when thy hit form.

Thinking of getting a season ticket to either Wasps or Worcester next season and pick my Villa games.

If you're neutral I recommend wasps, I suspect they'll challenge for the title next year, Hughes, Robson/Simpson and Cipriani is a phenomenal 8, 9, 10 and with Hallai, Wade and Daly outside they're going to expose a lot of teams, there's loads of pace, quick ball from the ruck and a 10 who can hit a sixpence.  I'm thinking of getting a season ticket there myself.

Decision made  :)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2016, 09:54:27 PM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!

Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P


Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares.  on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Villa in Denmark on March 07, 2016, 10:09:11 PM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!

Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P


Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares.  on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.

Spend obscene amounts of money. Awful to watch. Don't get the level of success you'd expect from that level of financial doping.

So the Chelsea of rugby then? Do they have a habit of deifying an absolute cock socket as a manger whilst shitting from a great height all over the few decent people they've got in their employ?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 07, 2016, 10:24:44 PM
The sarries argument amounts to "France doesn't have these caps so if we don't spend more than we should all the best players go there".  What that ignores is that pushing for increases to the caps (which are there to safeguard the clubs so they don't go into debt, Sarries are the only club carrying large debts) is fine but to repeatedly breach the caps (to qualify this, if they aren't breaching the caps then the average wage for non-playing staff at the club is about 40% higher than London averages for those roles but that's their defence) whilst making that argument is a massive "fuck you" to the league and really should've resulted in a points deduction by now.


EDIT - lost track of my point there.  I'd actually liken them to Leeds more than anything, spending like it's going out of fashion to keep up with the big boys whilst totally aware that 1 bad season will leave them deep in the shit for at least a decade.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Villa in Denmark on March 07, 2016, 10:35:07 PM
Fair enough.

Chelsea, Leeds?  Odious.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 07, 2016, 11:04:33 PM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!

Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P


Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares.  on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.

I'm no Pear! I've already said I'm a not-very-arsed Moseley/Glasgow fan!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 08, 2016, 09:57:34 AM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!

Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P


Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares.  on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.

I'm no Pear! I've already said I'm a not-very-arsed Moseley/Glasgow fan!

I was joking just to get another dig in about scotland to be honest.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 08, 2016, 09:10:12 PM
Tuilagi retained in squad in place of Goode. Happy with that.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 08, 2016, 09:28:33 PM
Surprised by the silence from both Gatland and Jones.  I was looking forward to them stoking the fire before the game.
 
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: lovejoy on March 08, 2016, 10:42:41 PM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!

Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P


Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares.  on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.

What about Bath, again blatant disregard for salary cap, found 'jobs' for players in amateur era and don't even own their own ground (which incidentally has rubbish views and mostly uncovered).
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 08, 2016, 11:03:06 PM
Boooooooooo!

I don't know much about rugby but I know I don't like Wasps!

Sounds like Worcester would be your team, and with regualr valiant defeats it'll feel familiar... :P


Oh and the only English club that you should openly dislike is Sarries, their blatant disregard for the salary cap is taking the piss but for someone reason no one cares.  on top of that they're boring as fuck to watch.

What about Bath, again blatant disregard for salary cap, found 'jobs' for players in amateur era and don't even own their own ground (which incidentally has rubbish views and mostly uncovered).

The 'jobs' during the amateur era was fairly normal (Tigers were the worst for it, hence they just happened to be a fair bit further along than most sides when things went professional).  The ground is a tough one because the Bath fans I know would be mortified if they moved but they have no option to buy it so what do they do?  I agree they took the piss a little with the salary cap but not to the same extent as Sarries, and they were only over for 1 year (by the look of it).  My bigger issue with Sarries is the debt, as I say, they're like Leeds in that they've run up massive debts that they can really control as is, 1 bad season and they're utterly fucked - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3414067/Saracens-debt-hits-45-1m-club-extends-unwanted-record-further.html - they've adopted a football club mentality in a market that doesn't really support it and I worry that not only are they going to send themselves to the wall but they're going to damage the game in the process.  They should've been docked points but if that happens and they miss the play offs it could cripple them so they're in a 3 way stare off with the RFU and premiership rugby and I don#t see any way for it to end well so long as sarries refuse to admit they need to do something about it.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 09, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
George being out is a blow, although currently Hartley would be playing most of the game anyway.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 09, 2016, 05:16:17 PM
George being out is a blow, although currently Hartley would be playing most of the game anyway.

It is but I like Cowan-Dickie as well so I don't think it's that big a deal when, as you say, it's a 15-20 minute cameo.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 12, 2016, 11:20:01 AM
I really hope we beat Wales I can't stand them. They're the Stoke of Rugby, all physicality and no finesse. Also in spite of the popular myth of England being arrogant Wales are incredibly arrogant.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 12, 2016, 04:49:26 PM
Itoje has put in one of the best halves of rugby I've ever seen here, it's been close to perfect.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Colhint on March 12, 2016, 04:52:45 PM
yup I agree
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 12, 2016, 05:34:10 PM
Here comes you know who
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on March 12, 2016, 05:42:39 PM
I'm not sure what's worse:

"Swing low..." Etc.

Or

"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).

Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on March 12, 2016, 05:43:14 PM
Still, good to see England crushing Wales.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 12, 2016, 05:49:23 PM
I'm not sure what's worse:

"Swing low..." Etc.

Or

"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).

Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.

Swing Low is awesome when you're there. Let's go is awful and should be killed with fire.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on March 12, 2016, 05:53:15 PM
What are England doing?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 12, 2016, 05:54:01 PM
For fuck sake, stupitity from Cole and now we're threatening to throw it away.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 12, 2016, 05:54:03 PM
Making it exciting.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 12, 2016, 05:54:32 PM
Dear oh dear, England blowing it at Twickenham against the Welsh again. At least I don't have a 3 hour trip home this time.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 12, 2016, 05:56:56 PM
Jesus we made hard work of that
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: curlytailavfc on March 12, 2016, 06:05:54 PM
it was like watching the villa last 15 mins
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Proposition Joe on March 12, 2016, 06:09:46 PM
Itoje deservedly MoM, almost threw that one away spectacularly, but luckily Gatland doesn't let them play until it's too late.

The only thing left to say is come on the Scots ... Flooer o' Scoatlun' ...
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 12, 2016, 06:15:16 PM
Cole and Haskell making stupid mistakes at bad times again, the sooner we get the pair of dickheads out the better.  I don't like Farrell and Manu at 10 and 12 either, the lack of discipline means there are gaps that shouldn't be there. The Youngs pass that led to their first try was shocking as well.

All the complaints done, itoje, billy, nowell and watson were superb.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 12, 2016, 06:25:39 PM
Cole and Haskell making stupid mistakes at bad times again, the sooner we get the pair of dickheads out the better.  I don't like Farrell and Manu at 10 and 12 either, the lack of discipline means there are gaps that shouldn't be there. The Youngs pass that led to their first try was shocking as well.

All the complaints done, itoje, billy, nowell and watson were superb.

Cole and Haskell have always been walking penalties, I don't understand why they keep getting picked. Youngs' pass was a shocker but I thought he played well otherwise.

I'd add Kruis to your list. It was like having four flankers at times.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 12, 2016, 06:44:41 PM
Cole and Haskell making stupid mistakes at bad times again, the sooner we get the pair of dickheads out the better.  I don't like Farrell and Manu at 10 and 12 either, the lack of discipline means there are gaps that shouldn't be there. The Youngs pass that led to their first try was shocking as well.

All the complaints done, itoje, billy, nowell and watson were superb.

Cole and Haskell have always been walking penalties, I don't understand why they keep getting picked. Youngs' pass was a shocker but I thought he played well otherwise.

I'd add Kruis to your list. It was like having four flankers at times.

Yes, Kruis, Hartley, Robshaw and Brown all played well but not quite on the same level, Itoje was a step above the other 3 as well, didn't have quite the same influence in the 2nd half but was still very good, 9.5/10 for me.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Villa in Denmark on March 12, 2016, 07:52:38 PM
I was reduced to watching my first full game in 18 months on a shit stream, see previous bitching about Viasat buying the rights and not showing the games.

I knew the stream had been slipping behind real time. Every time it froze up, it picked up where it had locked up. Until it froze as the Welsh peeled of the scrum for what I presume was their second try, only for it to recover with the score at 23-21 and the Welsh piling down the far touchline. I can now confirm that adrenaline is brown.

From what I could see between the stream freezing

Itoje was immense.
Generally the discipline that's been a problem since the end of Woodward looks to be getting better with a dis-honourable mention for Coles.
In general the game management was better than anything I saw after the first 12 months of Lancaster.
For all the first half dominance, 16 points was an insufficient return.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on March 12, 2016, 08:28:31 PM
I'm not sure what's worse:

"Swing low..." Etc.

Or

"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).

Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.

'on the piss m'lord' wins hands down for shit song of the century.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on March 12, 2016, 08:34:10 PM
Haskell had some great moments in the first half before him and Cole reverted to type.
Itoje was immense, Manu looked shit scared.
Im sure we'll put the French to the sword next week, we need to show we can be clinical, today 40 points should have been attainable against a pretty lack lustre Welsh side who only played for 20 minutes.

I know that kicking has become an integral part of the game but I do wish we made better choices with ball in hand, a few times today we kicked away decent possession, it was almost like Toby Flood was back in the side.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 12, 2016, 08:56:43 PM
Haskell had some great moments in the first half before him and Cole reverted to type.
Itoje was immense, Manu looked shit scared.
Im sure we'll put the French to the sword next week, we need to show we can be clinical, today 40 points should have been attainable against a pretty lack lustre Welsh side who only played for 20 minutes.

I know that kicking has become an integral part of the game but I do wish we made better choices with ball in hand, a few times today we kicked away decent possession, it was almost like Toby Flood was back in the side.

On the kicking I think a big part of that was the positioning of Farrell at 12.  a fair few times he just wasn't in the right place so Ford kicked instead.  I'm not trying to absolve Ford of any blame but I honestly don't think it helps that when he comes flat Farrell is slow into the line and when he goes deep Farrell gets too close so he's static when Ford passes.

I agree on the 40 points thing, the 'treatment' of Watson is the worst example, I reckon 2/3rds of the ball he got was him catching long kicks and trying to make something happen.  The few times we gave him good ball with space in front of him he made things happen.

Haskell - I've said it plenty of times, I don't think he's a bad player, I just think he's a fucking idiot, he's making the same mistakes now that he's made all through his career.  I also find it insulting that england were willing to break the 'must play in England' rule for this meathead but won't do it for the best 7 in the northern hemisphere.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Can Gana Be Bettered!?!? on March 12, 2016, 09:58:19 PM
I'm not sure what's worse:

"Swing low..." Etc.

Or

"Let's go Andy, let's go" (as in Andy Murray).

Both inisipid upper class nonsense, in my opinion.

'on the piss m'lord' wins hands down for shit song of the century.

Maybe, but the people sing it because they really fucking love the Villa and care what happens to the Villa (rightly or wrongly). The songs I mentioned are sang in the same way the National Anthem is. They sing it because they feel like they have to (and probably read the Daily Mail.)
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 12, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
I disagree, there is no defending singing songs about getting pissed as an 'ode' to one of your modern legends when he has had well reported drinking problems.  I really fucking hate that song.

Swing low, Let's go and the slow version of when the saints are all shitty and annoying as fuck but they're not out right insulting towards the person they're supposed to be in praise of.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 12, 2016, 10:32:06 PM
Itoje was outstanding today. I thought Ford was pretty poor. We were excellent for 65 and then rubbish for the last 10-15.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 13, 2016, 12:13:27 AM
Itoje was outstanding today. I thought Ford was pretty poor. We were excellent for 65 and then rubbish for the last 10-15.

You say Ford was poor (and I don't disagree) but our performance dropped noticeably once he went off.  The problem is Farrell and Manu like to 'smash' tackles and they don't have enough discipline to hold a defensive line, our whole shape looked wrong with them at 10 and 12, this is one of the reasons I'm so against Farrell and I don't think Manu is the golden child so many claim him to be.  poor defence because of bad technique I can live with because it can be fixed in young-ish players, poor defence because of attitude is more difficult.  I thought Farrell was particularly poor today because he was forcing Ford into bad decisions, there were 2-3 times in the first half where straightening up and taking the ball at pace would've given us big overlaps but instead Farrell charged up early to chase a kick meaning Ford either threw a wide one against a rush defence or did what Farrell wanted.  As well as we played for the first hour I think we should be ashamed of how little we did to get JJ, Watson and Nowell involved in 'good' areas.  He needs to fix that, those 3 are the key to unlocking teams like NZ and Aus but we need to get them confident that they'll get the ball if they make the runs, Watson made 3-4 good support lines today and got ignored.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Proposition Joe on March 13, 2016, 11:38:33 AM
Itoje was outstanding today. I thought Ford was pretty poor. We were excellent for 65 and then rubbish for the last 10-15.

Ford was OK until the kick was charged down for their try and then he lost it big time.  There was one point in our own 22 I think where normally he would have booted it but he dithered and got tackled.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: cdbullyweefan on March 13, 2016, 05:00:27 PM
Good weekend for Scottish sport.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Jon Crofts on March 13, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
England win 2 of the 3 up for grabs, the big one against the French next week, England by 25.

Marler could be sanctioned for a comment made to Samson Lee in the first half, he's alleged to have called Lee 'Gypsy boy' and could face a 4 week ban.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 13, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
Woohoo! First win since 2011 great start to Jones regime.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 14, 2016, 02:27:35 PM
Marler now also cited for striking so I think it's a given he's missing next week and probably out for most of the rest of the season if there's reasonable evidence against him.

Where this becomes a big deal is that I just don't trust Mako V, he's terrible in the scrum and will be a big weakness for us.  Matt Mullan is likely to come onto the bench, which i'm ok with I really would like us to have a prop who is decent in the scrum as an option as well, particularly against France.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 18, 2016, 01:40:40 PM
I'm amazed that Marler has been given a green light, the striking citation I agree with their verdict, there was nothing in it but the 'racism' (in quotes because I don't think he was intentionally being racist, I think it was a badly considered joke and it was taken that way by Lee) one seems pretty controversial.  As said, I think it was intended as a joke and I think everyone involved knows that but it was picked up on a mic and widely reported and therefore became bigger than that.  That World Rugby have asked the 6 Nations to explain the decision suggests that this might not be over because I think the credibility of the sport in regards to anti-racism is something that will be heavily considered.  It does mean that Marler and Lee will be, in my opinion, turned into pawns but a minimum 4 week ban (with the standard clause to reduce on 'character so probably 2-3 weeks) and a slap on the wrist would've seen it dealt with and should've been the verdict, something like:

"in reaching this decision we have taken in to consideration the intention behind the comments and his character and disciplinary record but we felt it necessary to remind the player of his responsibility as a professional sportsman and to ensure that we remain committed to opposing racism in all forms."
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Richard E on March 18, 2016, 01:43:40 PM
I'm just trying to imagine what the reaction would have been from the rugby fraternity and the tabloids if an England footballer had punched someone during a match and made a potentially racist comment. 
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2016, 07:56:31 PM
Excited by this.  Scotland v Ireland was a great warm up, a cracker in fact (the score should have been closer imo). 
Now the main event.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:05:42 PM
Owens has got that penalty against Itoje wrong, should've been the other way for holding on, Itoje's initial shape and position was perfect.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:11:44 PM
Brown shows again why I don't rate him, Watson should've been in to score under the posts there but instead he threw it away into midfield.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 19, 2016, 08:14:48 PM
Care makes up for a couple of piss poor box kicks
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:15:52 PM
Sucker punch that but it's fucking awful defence from France.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2016, 08:16:09 PM
Agree with both of those posts Paul-e.  Brown lacks awareness.

That said, I was about to slag Care off on here for his poor box kicks and then he snipes a try under the posts.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:20:26 PM
I don't think you can give Care all that much credit, a gap that wide 25 yards out I suspect any professional 9 scores.  I'm not belittling him scoring but it was an absolute gift.

That Trinh-Duc injury is nasty, not sure it needed 2 replays.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 08:22:36 PM
Very open game this.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:24:41 PM
Fair play to Dan Cole but should be disallowed, definite blocking.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:28:19 PM
Another appalling box kick, Care, despite the try, has been poor.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 08:32:41 PM
Giving away careless penalites at the moment. We need to get our heads together.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2016, 08:49:19 PM
could be a crucial 3 points here.  12-20 feels a significantly better than 12-17.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 08:52:05 PM
we're leading but that's a really poor half in a lot of ways, lots of mistakes.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2016, 08:53:15 PM
Over all I am impressed how much quicker the ball is recycled under Jones.  We have some average players though, two of which scored.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 08:57:18 PM
Need to be much better in second half.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:03:33 PM
Over all I am impressed how much quicker the ball is recycled under Jones.  We have some average players though, two of which scored.

This is the key change he's made, we get numbers to the breakdown quickly.  Lancaster had us standing out and it meant we rarely got turnovers and we gave away far too many against the good sides.  Jones was right to not make huge changes in personnel and instead concentrate on style but I think the changes with the players need to come in the summer, there's 3-4 of this team who are lucky to still be there.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 09:08:03 PM
Shite start to second.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:10:10 PM
Piss poor defence from Brown there, Nowell got him out of jail after he sold himself far too cheaply.

I can't quite understand how we're leading here, far too many mistakes.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2016, 09:10:26 PM
Is it naive to think we should get stronger as the game goes on because we have a stronger bench?
Bit too close this.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:13:01 PM
Is it naive to think we should get stronger as the game goes on because we have a stronger bench?
Bit too close this.

Should be, Youngs needs to be a step up on Care tohugh because that's been our biggest issue so far.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 09:16:43 PM
So many bloody penalites.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 09:20:58 PM
Awful.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 19, 2016, 09:21:58 PM
Our decision making is so poor today
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:22:35 PM
oh just fuck of Brown you fucking imbecile.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:25:10 PM
there we go, someone shows the brains to give Watson the ball in space and he scores.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 09:29:03 PM
Fuck me we are playing so poorly.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Villafirst on March 19, 2016, 09:34:46 PM
So many penalties given away!
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 09:45:32 PM
Fucking hell.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:47:20 PM
Nasty injury for Hartley.

performance wise both 9s have shown why they're not good enough, Brown has made 3-4 fundamental errors and Farrell, penalties aside, has been fucking awful.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:50:04 PM
That said, I think Ford has had an excellent game given some of the shit that's been thrown to him.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:54:56 PM
probably the easiest yellow card decision owens has ever had to make, what was the guy doing?
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 09:55:37 PM
man of the match, for me, is a coin toss between Kruis and Itoje, once again they've both been exceptional.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 09:57:19 PM
Grand slam get in! Poor precision today but we've done it.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 19, 2016, 09:59:38 PM
man of the match, for me, is a coin toss between Kruis and Itoje, once again they've both been exceptional.

I totally agree, took the French line out apart and were all over the field.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 10:02:39 PM
Very happy with the grand slam, the main thing its done is show just how poor Lancaster was for us to not get out of the group.

I think there's still some big work to do but it's nice to know that my belief that we have the best set of players in Europe has been shown to be correct.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 10:09:40 PM
Billy is the player of the tournament for me.  Watson has stepped up a level and still has more to come, I'd have him and North as my wingers.  Hartley has shown to be a great choice for captain and is comfortably the best hooker we have.  Finally Itoje is the brightest light in world rugby right now and he can really be whatever he wants to be, brilliant athlete with excellent technical skills.  Kruis was the form 2nd row in England and has translated that to international rugby with ease.

Those 5 need to be at the heart of the squad going forward.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: rob_bridge on March 19, 2016, 10:32:14 PM
man of the match, for me, is a coin toss between Kruis and Itoje, once again they've both been exceptional.

Have to agree - Kruis peerless at the set piece and Itoje slightly better in open play.     
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 19, 2016, 10:38:59 PM
Next on Jones' agenda: Select either Ford or farrell.  Picking both makes our backs dysfunctional.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 19, 2016, 10:46:50 PM
Delighted with Grand Slam. Getting a team who clearly have so much potential for growth to win all their games at this stage of their development is excellent. Billy, Kruis, Itoje and Watson have all shown themselves to be world class this tournament.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 19, 2016, 10:48:24 PM
Excellent from Kruis and Itodje but good shifts from Robshaw, Haskell, and Nowell too. Thought Watson looked lively whenever he had a sniff of the ball. As poor;y as we did play you have to give a lot of credit to France. At home they were never going to roll over and let us rock up and take a Grand slam without working for it. You also have to bear in mind that none of this team has won anything internationally (I only count Grand Slams as winning anything not winning the 6 Nations without it). Anyway, nice to win it even nicer to do it away.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 19, 2016, 11:32:34 PM
Excellent from Kruis and Itodje but good shifts from Robshaw, Haskell, and Nowell too. Thought Watson looked lively whenever he had a sniff of the ball. As poor;y as we did play you have to give a lot of credit to France. At home they were never going to roll over and let us rock up and take a Grand slam without working for it. You also have to bear in mind that none of this team has won anything internationally (I only count Grand Slams as winning anything not winning the 6 Nations without it). Anyway, nice to win it even nicer to do it away.

I thought Robshaw and Haskell were poor in the first half but they got better.

Nowell had a frustrating game for me, he was good in defence but in attack he was getting lots of ball by coming off his wing but he was running predictable lines and getting hit back a little too much for me.  I rate him highly but today was his worst game.

to be truly negative I know I slate Brown a lot and you're probably all bored of it but today was him at his braindead worst, he just makes so many bad decisions in a game, yes he's good under the high ball and yes he carries it back well but that largely gets negated by the fact that he either misses obvious passes that he should make or he runs into trouble and gets turned over, the failure to set Watson in in the first half was unforgivable, all he had to do was straighten and pin the full back and then pop a pass and it's a simple 7 pointer, we need to replace him soon if we want to build towards challenging for the next world cup.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 19, 2016, 11:39:49 PM
It's easy to be negative and criticise England, especially as we aren't the finished article yet, but also remiss of anyone to forget that there was another team out there trying to stop us. We may not have played at our best, it happens, we may not have played silky flowing ruby, that happens too, but I think it's a hallmark of a good team, and a good set of players, that when not hitting their straps they are still winning big important games.

I disagree with you a lot on Brown, but only because I don't understand the nuances of his, and the game, but like what I see of him. Today, I did think he was poor and made the wrong decisions when he was (seldomly) involved in the game. In the first half I think we were too slow at the breakdown which leas to too many penalties. But that was team wide.

One other thing Billy V has been great but for me my man of the tournament for England has been Kruis.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 20, 2016, 12:12:41 AM
What is remarkable is how well Kruis and Itoje have done. If you'd said before the tournament that Launchbury wouldn't be first choice if fit and that Lawes wouldn't be in the squad full stop you'd have been laughed at.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Villan For Life on March 20, 2016, 10:08:30 AM
What is remarkable is how well Kruis and Itoje have done. If you'd said before the tournament that Launchbury wouldn't be first choice if fit and that Lawes wouldn't be in the squad full stop you'd have been laughed at.

That's a nice position to be in and it will be interesting to see where Tuilagi will fit in; for me he has to play in the first test against the Aussies.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 20, 2016, 08:45:03 PM
I think Jones is canny enough to start replacing players bit by bit that he sees as the players who are good but not going to make us great. I'm thinking Haskell, Robshaw, Cole, Youngs, M Vunipola, Brown, and even Farrell.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: PaulWinch again on March 20, 2016, 08:47:36 PM
I think he rates Robshaw and I think he's fine at 6 to be honest.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 20, 2016, 10:34:46 PM
Yes I agree. I think he's fine at 6 at the moment and Jones says the right things about him. There's a chance of course but I'd be surprised if he's apart of any England world-cup winning starting 15. If he is it'll show how much he will have improved which is just a win-win for England.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM
I'm not sure, Robshaw is ok at 6 but when Nathan Hughes is available as an 8 do you have one of Hughes or Billy on the bench or do you shift Billy to 6 and play both?  With Robshaw I think it's going to be him being dropped because there are better options (I think Clifford will pass him soon and Gibson and Ewers have got to be knocking on the door).  I think the same is true at 9.  For all my bitching Youngs and Care aren't terrible but both of them have big gaps which Simpson, Robson and Chudley don't have so you have to think it's likely to be 2 from those 3 in the long term.

The likes of Haskell, Farrell (as a 12) and Cole just aren't good enough.


I disagree with you a lot on Brown, but only because I don't understand the nuances of his, and the game, but like what I see of him. Today, I did think he was poor and made the wrong decisions when he was (seldomly) involved in the game. In the first half I think we were too slow at the breakdown which leas to too many penalties. But that was team wide.


The problem with Brown, as I've tried to get across a few times, is that he's thick (as a player), that's leads to bad decision making which comes out as:
- His positioning is very iffy at times where he stays too central when teams are attacking down a wing, leaving himself too much to do to get across and cover a missed tackle.
- He misses the 'right' pass too often.
- He runs into other people's space and wastes overlaps.
- He runs into contact without having enough people around him and gets turned over.
- He tries to act the hard man by smashing people in the tackle and ends up selling himself.
- His kicking game is poor, too often he gives the opposition good counter attack ball when he should just find touch.


I won't deny he's a fantastic ball carrier and he's solid under the high ball but like Haskell and Cole the bad things make him a liability and if we want to win the next world cup we can't afford to have those types of players.  I have similar concerns about Manu but voicing those around most English rugby fans gets people looking at you like you'r insane.  On top of that I think he can still learn how to fix the flaws, The others I don't think will ever change.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 20, 2016, 11:25:47 PM
Well I stopped reading because my eyes are bleeding. They were immediately drawn to something negative about Tuilagi and I'm afraid my eyes will allow no sight of such insanity.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 21, 2016, 12:07:30 AM
Yeah, I get that so let me clarify, Manu is an absolute beast and his potential is unbelievable but he's far from a complete player and has been badly let down by his club and country who have let him continue to play as if he's a raw 18 year old who just wants to get the ball in hand run hard and fast.  We shouldn't stop him doing that but we should have worked on his offloading game and ability to pass out of contact so as well as punching holes if they don't double up he can get the ball outside if tackler get drawn into him.  The comparison should be Nonu who had a similar physique and the same technical flaws when he broke through but was developed into a rounded player who became the heartbeat of a very strong NZ team.  We've badly wasted him so far and rushing him back into the matchday squad when he's half fit doesn't give me much confidence that those mistakes are going to be rectified.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 21, 2016, 12:29:14 AM
I'd say that Jones is probably the best person for Tuilagi, and English fans, as I doubt he'll allow a one-dimensional player to be around the team for long.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 21, 2016, 09:37:35 AM
I'd say that Jones is probably the best person for Tuilagi, and English fans, as I doubt he'll allow a one-dimensional player to be around the team for long.

That's my hope as well, as I say I think he can fix the flaws and become a great player but he really needs people to tell him he's got flaws rather than all the gushing praise he's met with by everyone.  Right now the bench is the right place for him and we should be looking to get Slade in at 12 for the tour.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on March 21, 2016, 07:07:24 PM
I disagree with you a lot on Brown, but only because I don't understand the nuances of his, and the game, but like what I see of him. Today, I did think he was poor and made the wrong decisions when he was (seldomly) involved in the game. In the first half I think we were too slow at the breakdown which leas to too many penalties. But that was team wide.


The problem with Brown, as I've tried to get across a few times, is that he's thick (as a player), that's leads to bad decision making which comes out as:
- His positioning is very iffy at times where he stays too central when teams are attacking down a wing, leaving himself too much to do to get across and cover a missed tackle.
- He misses the 'right' pass too often.
- He runs into other people's space and wastes overlaps.
- He runs into contact without having enough people around him and gets turned over.
- He tries to act the hard man by smashing people in the tackle and ends up selling himself.
- His kicking game is poor, too often he gives the opposition good counter attack ball when he should just find touch.


I won't deny he's a fantastic ball carrier and he's solid under the high ball but like Haskell and Cole the bad things make him a liability and if we want to win the next world cup we can't afford to have those types of players.  I have similar concerns about Manu but voicing those around most English rugby fans gets people looking at you like you'r insane.  On top of that I think he can still learn how to fix the flaws, The others I don't think will ever change.

I was a big fan of Brown and, after reading certain views, watched his games closely. I have to agree with you, paul, he had a poor tournament.
Everything you've listed above were there to see.
I'm sure that will be addressed.

On a tangent, I have to say that I love reading your rugby posts. You obviously watch a fair amount which gives you a great insight on players.
I don't always agree, but, I can't argue with your knowledge.
Hopefully, I'll be watching more next season.
Looking forward to the Autumn internationals and the Lions
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 21, 2016, 08:48:24 PM
Stuart Barnes pretty much based his Sunday Times article on Brown and your points Paul.  In summary, he is great up to a point - high ball / plenty of cajoles / a decent athlete - but he limits the ability of the team due to his sizeable flaws.  To paraphrase, brown is a great player but no team that he plays in will win a World Cup.

An Alan Hutton type player.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2016, 10:05:05 AM
I'm glad people are starting to see it because for years I've pointed these things out and people have looked at me like I'm mad.  I just think if you won't pick the best try scorer in England (Wade) because of perceived weaknesses then you're treading dangerous grounds to ignore the weaknesses of the players you have selected.

This week it's particularly easy to target Brown because the last game he did his best to highlight every single one of problems for me and he was, in my opinion, clearly our weak link.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: nigel on March 22, 2016, 07:45:15 PM
I'm glad people are starting to see it because for years I've pointed these things out and people have looked at me like I'm mad.  I just think if you won't pick the best try scorer in England (Wade) because of perceived weaknesses then you're treading dangerous grounds to ignore the weaknesses of the players you have selected.

This week it's particularly easy to target Brown because the last game he did his best to highlight every single one of problems for me and he was, in my opinion, clearly our weak link.

Stop being so smug  ;)

Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2016, 09:29:12 PM
I'm glad people are starting to see it because for years I've pointed these things out and people have looked at me like I'm mad.  I just think if you won't pick the best try scorer in England (Wade) because of perceived weaknesses then you're treading dangerous grounds to ignore the weaknesses of the players you have selected.

This week it's particularly easy to target Brown because the last game he did his best to highlight every single one of problems for me and he was, in my opinion, clearly our weak link.

Stop being so smug  ;)



I don't get the chance all that often so I'm going to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: DaveD on March 22, 2016, 10:34:17 PM
I refuse to agree with paul_e on principle. Even though he's right.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: peter w on March 22, 2016, 10:50:27 PM
As an amateur watcher of rugby I've been able to watch Brown and be oblivious to his faults. i have seen paul e's criticisms about Brown before but largely disregard them. But only because not being a big time rugby fan I'm happy in my ignorant bliss. But when I watched the France game I was shocked at just how poor he was. mistakes were highlighted throughout the game, even by way of the commentary team pointing out Brown's poor positional play when stationed in the centre of the pitch as Wales attacked the left wing.

But i'm not sure a good player can be that poor unless the issues were there before. Still, if Jones is minded to give him another game I think you'll see replacements on the bench ready to haul him off. He'll be murdered if he plays like that against the Aussies.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2016, 11:01:55 PM
I refuse to agree with paul_e on principle. Even though he's right.

Awww, I think the the closest thing to a compliment I'll ever get from you so I'm taking it.
Title: Re: Six Nations 2016
Post by: Dante Lavelli on March 25, 2016, 09:15:58 AM
One thing, one plus, with Brown is he is clearly a big character, always at the centre of what is going on. 
There's a risk that if you removed him then you'd be removing one of the pulses - not quite the heart beat - of the team. 

It might be that Jones sees him a reliable influence to include in the team whilst the youngsters are integrated: Itoje / Daly / Clifford / Tuilagi, even Watson etc.  Once that transition has taken place then he might be a less integral part of the team. 

I think he'll be 31 by the time the Autumn Internationals anyway so not a bad age to be eased sideways.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 15, 2016, 06:08:55 PM
So who are the 3/4 players who Jones is referring to from Grand Slam squad who he's disappointed with?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dave Summers on April 15, 2016, 06:45:03 PM
So who are the 3/4 players who Jones is referring to from Grand Slam squad who he's disappointed with?

At a guess, Mako, George Ford, JJ and possibly Brown or Watson. Bath have been so poor this year, their players automatically come to mind. Think it's all mind games though 😄
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dave Summers on April 15, 2016, 06:51:13 PM
As an aside to the above question regarding England, does anyone know much about Ben Te'o who's been mentioned in dispatches today for a place on the summer tour? I would have thought with Slade, Manu, Daly and Joseph we'd be covered well enough at centre? That said, if JJ is one of the players who Eddie thinks isn't playing well, then maybe he's under pressure from this fella? When you add in Burrell, Eastmond and Twelvetrees who are not even on the radar at the moment, it's quite incredible our options.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on April 15, 2016, 07:05:08 PM
Ford has gone backwards this year, whereas Farrell has come on miles and is by far the better bet atm. I would play Cipriani ahead of Ford too.

Hopefully it's a blip, because I really did rate him last season, and he could be a grateful 10.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on April 16, 2016, 08:15:36 AM
If you pick on form then cips is the 10 and both 9s get replaced with Robson and Chudley.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on April 16, 2016, 04:58:59 PM
So Wade scored 6 today, good luck to whoever has to explain why he's not on the England tour if he doesn't get selected.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on April 16, 2016, 05:42:48 PM
So Wade scored 6 today, good luck to whoever has to explain why he's not on the England tour if he doesn't get selected.

He's just got to go he's a lethal finisher.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 08, 2016, 05:36:11 PM
Squad for the wales game has been announced, remember this is with Sarries, Tigers, Chiefs and Wasps players all ineligible:

ENGLAND TRAINING SQUAD

Forwards
Dave Attwood (Bath)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Charlie Ewels (Bath)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks)

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Ollie Devoto (Bath)
George Ford (Bath)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Alex Lewington (London Irish) 
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath)
Anthony Watson (Bath)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)

I'm largely happy with that.  I called Lewington as an outside bet in the autumn so it's good to see that England have seen the same potential there. I'm not sure about Haley but he's worth a look and I'm utterly convinced that Sinckler will never make it as an international other than that I'm happy.  I'd have been tempted to bring Mallinder in purely to see how he works in the squad but he's not ready yet so I can't argue with them.  I'm expecting a tour squad of about 40 and there's 20ish from the playoffs to come in so I suspect there are 5-6 names in this list that will drop away after the Wales match, any of them who don't make the 23 are almost certainly staying home.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 09, 2016, 08:19:53 PM
So here's where Mallinder is:

England squad for World Rugby U20 Championship:
 
Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins)
Darren Atkins (Bath Rugby)
Josh Bainbridge (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Lewis Boyce (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Theo Brophy-Clews (London Irish)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Gallagher (Saracens)
Max Green (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Billy Keast (Exeter Chiefs)
Andrew Kitchener (Worcester Warriors)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby)
George Nott (Sale Sharks)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Harry Randall (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors)
Stan South (Harlequins)
Will Stuart (Wasps)
Huw Taylor (Worcester Warriors)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Walker (Saracens)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Tom West (Wasps)
Johnny Williams (London Irish)
Jack Willis (Wasps)

Not many of them that I know from that list, Marchant and Mallinder have had big seasons for their clubs though and Perkins looks a fantastic prospect, should be worth watching.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: luke:lamf on May 10, 2016, 11:17:10 AM
Sliding off-topic, because I know next to nothing about under-20s rugby - the first thing that springs to mind reading that list is just how bloody posh & middle-class rugby still seems to be. In a list of 28 names, there are;

3 Jacks
2 Georges
2 Maxs
2 Harrys
2 Wills (+ 2 Billys)

That's getting on half the squad from 5 first names that, to my mind and having attended an independant school myself  that bloody worshipped rugby - producing Harry Ellis & Harry Thacker (two more Harrys!) for the Tigers & England -, scream white (upper-)middle-class families.

It would be interesting (but not so interesting that I can be arsed to take time out of work) to see the comparative variety of the national football and cricket squads and think about how rugby could expand across social classes (or whatever the correct terms may be to encompass income brackets, religious and ethnic backgrounds).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 10, 2016, 01:10:47 PM
Sliding off-topic, because I know next to nothing about under-20s rugby - the first thing that springs to mind reading that list is just how bloody posh & middle-class rugby still seems to be. In a list of 28 names, there are;

3 Jacks
2 Georges
2 Maxs
2 Harrys
2 Wills (+ 2 Billys)

That's getting on half the squad from 5 first names that, to my mind and having attended an independant school myself  that bloody worshipped rugby - producing Harry Ellis & Harry Thacker (two more Harrys!) for the Tigers & England -, scream white (upper-)middle-class families.

It would be interesting (but not so interesting that I can be arsed to take time out of work) to see the comparative variety of the national football and cricket squads and think about how rugby could expand across social classes (or whatever the correct terms may be to encompass income brackets, religious and ethnic backgrounds).

I think Rugby has done a good job of doing just that in some areas of the country (South-West and London in particular) but in others has completely failed to get any interest in the comprehensive schools. In my opinion it's largely because the quality of coaching just isn't available outside of clubs and public schools.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on May 11, 2016, 01:52:51 PM
And there are very little green spaces available to many comprehensives to play sports such as rugby and cricket.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 11, 2016, 06:13:15 PM
And there are very little green spaces available to many comprehensives to play sports such as rugby and cricket.

I'm not sure that's a big problem for rugby.  At the age group and level we're talking about you wouldn't have proper scrums, rucks or mauls; you wouldn't have line outs and you wouldn't be encouraging full contact tackling so actually a 20x20 patch of grass where you can get people passing and running and playing a bit of touch would be fine.  If you went to the rugby fanzone at millenium point (or probably most of the others) you'd see they had touch pitches setup which were that kind of size and they work well for creating that initial interest.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 16, 2016, 01:33:46 PM
I'm not a huge follower of 7s but I did catch a bit from the weekend and was hoping one of the tries would appear on the internet:




WHAT. A. CATCH!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on May 16, 2016, 06:42:21 PM
I'm not a huge follower of 7s but I did catch a bit from the weekend and was hoping one of the tries would appear on the internet:




WHAT. A. CATCH!

Big hands!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on May 16, 2016, 07:26:10 PM
Not many from Gloucester involved for England at whatever level. That said, if you can't get the buggers fit....
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 16, 2016, 08:47:37 PM
That's been the bring problem for Gloucester, particularly in the backs, the ones that are England quality have either been edged out of the club (Robson) or can't stay fit (Trinder and recently May). After that Morgan is injured but would be with the squad otherwise and Kvesic has been on the fringes for a couple of years so you're pretty well represented in the back row.

It's really the front 5 where you're not represented and, if I'm honest, that doesn't surprise me. The poor front 5 has been the problem for about 5-6 years, it's why you are struggling to make the top half of the league, you just don't have the platform to play from.  Even the little quality you do have isn't english; take away Hibbard and Afoa and there's not much left.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on May 16, 2016, 10:11:05 PM
I'm not a huge follower of 7s but I did catch a bit from the weekend and was hoping one of the tries would appear on the internet:




WHAT. A. CATCH!

Scored a very similar try in the prestigious Alcester 7's many, many years ago.
In the final, too.
My team started the game. I sprinted on to the kick off, took the ball on the full, and on under the posts. 5 seconds.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 16, 2016, 10:47:16 PM
I've scored one the other way, opposition kicked off, managed to take the catch clean and beat the first tackle and then looked up and there was loads of space so just ran for it, that's the danger if you have too many people rush chasing the kick.  The fly-half did get across but I'm 6' 2 and was about 16 stone at the time so at full pace (100m in about 11 seconds) you had to know what you were doing to stop me.  If I'd ever learned how to tackle I'd have been a good player, just wasn't aggressive enough.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on May 17, 2016, 12:02:14 PM
I've scored one the other way, opposition kicked off, managed to take the catch clean and beat the first tackle and then looked up and there was loads of space so just ran for it, that's the danger if you have too many people rush chasing the kick.  The fly-half did get across but I'm 6' 2 and was about 16 stone at the time so at full pace (100m in about 11 seconds) you had to know what you were doing to stop me.  If I'd ever learned how to tackle I'd have been a good player, just wasn't aggressive enough.

Think you and were from the same rugby tackling pod, mate.
Attacking, I was second to none and I could defend, but wasn't the strongest in the tackle.
Even when I was in my mid 40's you heard opposition saying 'Watch the winger, he's fast' That reputation was hard to lose, thank goodness :-)
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 17, 2016, 01:00:46 PM
I've scored one the other way, opposition kicked off, managed to take the catch clean and beat the first tackle and then looked up and there was loads of space so just ran for it, that's the danger if you have too many people rush chasing the kick.  The fly-half did get across but I'm 6' 2 and was about 16 stone at the time so at full pace (100m in about 11 seconds) you had to know what you were doing to stop me.  If I'd ever learned how to tackle I'd have been a good player, just wasn't aggressive enough.

Think you and were from the same rugby tackling pod, mate.
Attacking, I was second to none and I could defend, but wasn't the strongest in the tackle.
Even when I was in my mid 40's you heard opposition saying 'Watch the winger, he's fast' That reputation was hard to lose, thank goodness :-)

It's the problem with not getting into the game until I was 17, the early basics just aren't there.  I was fine tackling in the fringes but tackling people who were running hard I just never trusted my technique to go low so I'd just try to wrap them instead, just about works at midland 2/3 but step up a level or 2 and you get found out.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on May 17, 2016, 06:08:53 PM
That's been the bring problem for Gloucester, particularly in the backs, the ones that are England quality have either been edged out of the club (Robson) or can't stay fit (Trinder and recently May). After that Morgan is injured but would be with the squad otherwise and Kvesic has been on the fringes for a couple of years so you're pretty well represented in the back row.

It's really the front 5 where you're not represented and, if I'm honest, that doesn't surprise me. The poor front 5 has been the problem for about 5-6 years, it's why you are struggling to make the top half of the league, you just don't have the platform to play from.  Even the little quality you do have isn't english; take away Hibbard and Afoa and there's not much left.

Given the brutal nature of the home grown pack I grew up watching in the amateur days it us very much a bugbear of mine.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 22, 2016, 01:32:01 PM
Quite a surprising squad in some respects for the Aussie tour.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 22, 2016, 01:56:15 PM
Genge and sinckler are picks for the future i think, neither is ready yet.

Harrison staying in is important, i just hope he gets a proper run and gives us that extra quality at the breakdown that's been missing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 22, 2016, 07:18:35 PM
I think Jones is basically saying Ashton won't be getting picked.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on May 23, 2016, 01:34:47 AM
I think Jones is basically saying Ashton won't be getting picked.

Or Wade or Rokoduguni. All of whom are far more dangerous than Yarde IMHO.

Tough on Cipriani too, who has played far better than Ford this season.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 03:25:51 PM
Ford's kicking from tee is unacceptably poor today.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 03:40:13 PM
Ford really needs to sort his kicking out, he's cost us the equivalent of a converted try now. It's not good enough.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 03:41:37 PM
Yep, terrible kicking by Ford.

That finish by Watson though ... he really has turned into the player I thought he would now, truly phenomenal winger.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 03:42:50 PM
Yep was a great finish.

Ford needs to sort this out though, an international kicker cannot be this poor.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 03:44:35 PM
We've coughed up way too many penalties today.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on May 29, 2016, 04:05:51 PM
That's three cracking finishes by England.

Ford misses again.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 04:09:07 PM
9 points now missed by Ford. This is one of the poorest kicking displays I've ever seen.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 04:09:55 PM
Ford's head has gone, I can forgive him missing the conversion for the Watson try, but the other 3 were awful.

There's 4, Clifford has got some jets on him.  I don't understand why they were calling it a knock on, the ball clearly went backwards.  I'm now convinced that Biggar doesn't understand what a knock-on is and a couple of commentators seem lost by the concept as well.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 04:11:30 PM
Excellent try scoring today and Ford has finally kicked one.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
Scott Quinnell is doing his damnest to be 'impartial' there.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 04:23:11 PM
There was a nice little clip of what Harrison brings with the ball in hand there, shame he's at 6 not 7 so he hasn't been able to get involved in the battle on the floor.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 04:26:52 PM
Fair play to Yarde, brilliant play from 2-3 people in the build up, the hand off by lawes and the turnover/pickup from the floor by harrison were superb, the latter was largely missed by the commentators though.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 04:39:27 PM
This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 04:46:23 PM
This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.

The thing Is Ford has done well in game, it's just his tee kicking that has been shocking.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on May 29, 2016, 05:06:39 PM
This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.

The thing Is Ford has done well in game, it's just his tee kicking that has been shocking.

Thing is though as a kicker you can't miss that many kicks.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on May 29, 2016, 05:43:04 PM
This will be an impressive win considering how awful Ford has been.

The thing Is Ford has done well in game, it's just his tee kicking that has been shocking.

Thing is though as a kicker you can't miss that many kicks.

Oh absolutely, I'm just frustrated because I think his kicking from hand was good and at times we looked like most of that 23 are capable of much better than we saw, the commentators called it close but in truth we won by 14 and butchered about 15 points on top of that.  Considering how good people think Wales are that's a good performance with so many players unavailable.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on May 29, 2016, 05:47:16 PM
I thought it was very encouraging how well the guys who didn't feature in the 6 Nations played. And how fantastic is it to have four locks of the quality of Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on May 31, 2016, 01:13:00 PM
Beating Wales by 5 tries to 1 isn't to be sniffed at especially as they were almost at full strength, they'll get hammered in New Zealand whereas I have a lot more confidence in England getting a series win against the bread stealers this summer, which, followed by a couple of Autumn internationals against Fiji & the Pumas sets us up really well for the 6 Nations in 2017.

When is Jonny May due back from injury?

 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 07, 2016, 09:41:13 PM
JUst watch the U20s beat Italy, was very ragged in places but Harry Mallinder was 2-3 levels above anyone else on the pitch, I reckon he'll be in the full squad for the 6N, he's such a fantastic talent, big, quick, strong, good hands, great kick, runs solid lines and is generally a very smart player.  He's got it all to be a genuinely world class 12.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 07, 2016, 11:21:59 PM
To add to my post from earlier

https://vine.co/v/i3OiiFeZ6t1 (https://vine.co/v/i3OiiFeZ6t1)

I'm just going to leave that there.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 08, 2016, 09:50:20 AM
JUst watch the U20s beat Italy, was very ragged in places but Harry Mallinder was 2-3 levels above anyone else on the pitch, I reckon he'll be in the full squad for the 6N, he's such a fantastic talent, big, quick, strong, good hands, great kick, runs solid lines and is generally a very smart player.  He's got it all to be a genuinely world class 12.

Agree, Mallinder must be pretty close to a call up.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on June 08, 2016, 10:24:22 AM
I he Neil's son ?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 08, 2016, 10:44:42 AM
I he Neil's son ?

Nope, his dad is Jim (the Northampton head coach and former Sale full-back).  I think Neil (I assume you mean the cricketer) is spelt differently.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 09, 2016, 10:29:23 AM
Interesting selection for first Test. Surprised to see Yarde start, but good opportunity for Burrell. Not shocked to see Ford dropped for Farrell. Shame there's no involvement for Slade.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 09, 2016, 10:54:42 AM
Interesting selection for first Test. Surprised to see Yarde start, but good opportunity for Burrell. Not shocked to see Ford dropped for Farrell. Shame there's no involvement for Slade.

Yarde in for Nowell is the only shock there for me.  Burrell had to start after how well he played against Wales, he was the one who made the backline work.  I find myself hoping for Brown to take a knock and be replaced by Nowell with Watson going back to 15, that's about the best backline we have available on the tour then (I don't like the 9 and 10 options though, of the 4 the only 1 in anything like good form is Farrell, should be robson, chudley and cipriani in the other spots).

I don't like Haskell at 7 though, he's a 6 and an idiot, I'd really hoped that he's use the tour to give Harrison a proper chance to make the spot his own, maybe when Pocock embarrasses Haskell at the breakdown it will prompt the change that he promised when he took the job.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on June 09, 2016, 12:15:57 PM
Yeah, I don't get Yarde for Nowell either.

Farrell had to start at 10, and Burrell earned his chance.

I would have liked to have seen Goode at 15,    given the form he's been in.

Unfortunately, we have the same 6/7 combo as in the world cup, just wearing different shirts, which means we are going to get killed at the breakdown. Again.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 09, 2016, 12:30:15 PM
There must be a reason for Yarde over Nowell considering the latter performed well and is a great finisher. Carrying a knock? Jones thinks that more outright speed from yarde against his marker will suit England in this game? maybe he wants Yarde to do a lot of running and then when the Aussie defence are tired to bring on Nowell who can finish well against a  tiring defence? There must be a plan.

As for 6 and 7 maybe Jones thinks they deserve a game after being part of a Grand Slam winning team just 3 or so months  ago. It sends the wrong message. We're good enough for Northern hemisphere rugby but not against teams from the South. First-half first test and they should be okay and any player being completely dominated can be replaced and we go from there.

The only other one I'm not particularly keen on is Mako V. I don't think he's good enough in the scrum.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 09, 2016, 12:51:27 PM
There must be a reason for Yarde over Nowell considering the latter performed well and is a great finisher. Carrying a knock? Jones thinks that more outright speed from yarde against his marker will suit England in this game? maybe he wants Yarde to do a lot of running and then when the Aussie defence are tired to bring on Nowell who can finish well against a  tiring defence? There must be a plan.

As for 6 and 7 maybe Jones thinks they deserve a game after being part of a Grand Slam winning team just 3 or so months  ago. It sends the wrong message. We're good enough for Northern hemisphere rugby but not against teams from the South. First-half first test and they should be okay and any player being completely dominated can be replaced and we go from there.

The only other one I'm not particularly keen on is Mako V. I don't think he's good enough in the scrum.

The issue is we don't have a 7 on the bench either so the only real option would be to bring on Launchbury and push Itoje back there.  He might be ok, he's certainly good over the ball on the floor but unless they've had him training as a 7 it's going to be completely new to him playing there and it's different enough from 4,5 and 6 that I'd be nervous for him.

I agree on Mako, he's excellent off the bench against a tiring side because of the extra mobility he brings but I think I'd have started with Mullan.

On Nowell there's an interview with Eddie Jones on the England rugby facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/OfficialEnglandRugby/videos/10153848889619825/) where he outright says that Nowell "probably a little bit short of where we need him to be" so I assume losing the final has knocked his confidence a bit.  It could be an injury but that's not the feeling I get from it, watch the video and see if you agree, it's the only bit where Jones seems a bit unsure of what to say.

Looping back, in the same video he also specifically states that Harrison and Clifford are unlucky to miss out so I do wonder if the back row is likely to change for the 2nd game.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 10, 2016, 08:29:46 PM
Jones thinks Farrell's decision making is developing, I agree with that.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 09:17:38 AM
NZ are making a right hash of this at the moment.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 11:00:45 AM
Dealt with it in the end. Now come on England.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 11:28:43 AM
Blimey the Aussies are absolutely slaying us at the moment.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 11, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
Great first half come back for England.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 12:03:34 PM
Yep excellent character to come back like that.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 12:04:04 PM
They need to play better in second half to consolidate the lead now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 11, 2016, 12:07:39 PM
Our backrow were terrible for the first 20, he needs to change it up for the next test.

Brown has had a really poor half.

Subbing Burrell when he did was incredibly harsh, i understand why but I think singling him out like that was unfair.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 12:12:55 PM
Yep and it's going to be hard for Burrell to come back from that. Robshaw and Haskell, unsurprisingly, are doing nowhere near enough at the breakdown.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 11, 2016, 12:18:10 PM
Great by Haskell, Having a great game.

Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 12:19:06 PM
Brilliant by Haskell there and that pass from Ford was great. Hopefully that'll boost his confidence.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on June 11, 2016, 12:57:27 PM
Well I've never been his biggest fan, but I have to admit Haskell was immense today.

And how good were our bench ?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 11, 2016, 01:02:17 PM
Agree, Dave.
James Haskell was fantastic.
Pleased for George Ford, too. Did exceptionally well when he came on. Brave move by Eddie Jones to bring him on for Burrell.

Just how good is Maro Itoje?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Ads on June 11, 2016, 01:03:26 PM
Cracking game!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 01:24:32 PM
Great result. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: West Derby Villan on June 11, 2016, 01:31:18 PM
My heart has just slowed down now after that fantastic last ten minutes wow
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 11, 2016, 01:37:27 PM
That was fantastic.  It could be an epic series as Australia will improve from here.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 11, 2016, 01:43:17 PM
England have so much potential now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: West Derby Villan on June 11, 2016, 01:46:39 PM
And such a strong bench as well
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 11, 2016, 02:01:18 PM
The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 11, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
Great by Haskell, Having a great game.

Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul

The problem with that Burrell sub is that he's the sort of player who lets things get to him, that's probably ended his tour after 25minutes and largely because our backrow were completely incapable of slowing down the ball.  I don't disagree that the change did help us but I'm not sure if the cost is worth paying over the 3 matches given that I don't think Burrell was really doing anything all that wrong.  I get what they were saying at half time but I genuinely think our problem was much closer to the breakdown.

That brings nicely to the fact that, after 20-25 minutes Haskell was competing with Brown and Robshaw for the most ineffective player on the pitch, I agree that he had a good second half but he was never man of the match, Itoje pretty much kept us in the game single-handedly in the first 25 before we started to boss the set piece and use that to slow the game down and let their indiscipline get us back into the game.

It was a big win but that can't be allowed to stop rightful criticism and the main criticism I have is that we have no pace in our backrow which creates space out wide if teams can get the ball out quickly, we've conceded 2 tries in the corner because of it.  The current backrow is the same one that let us down so badly in the last world cup and their deficiencies are being covered by the quality of Itoje right now.  Fundamentally Haskell and Robshaw are both 6s and it should be a choice between them, then you pick someone at 7 who either gives you a bit of dog to slow the ball down and let your backs line up or you pick someone with the pace to cover round and fill in the line, Harrison and Clifford give you those options.

The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.

Robson should be the first choice 9, he was immense yesterday.

Add in Mallinder who will clearly step up from the U20s to the main squad over the next year and Nathen Hughes who becomes eligible for the Autumn and we've got a lot of extra quality to come back into this squad.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 11, 2016, 03:22:18 PM
Great by Haskell, Having a great game.

Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul

The problem with that Burrell sub is that he's the sort of player who lets things get to him, that's probably ended his tour after 25minutes and largely because our backrow were completely incapable of slowing down the ball.  I don't disagree that the change did help us but I'm not sure if the cost is worth paying over the 3 matches given that I don't think Burrell was really doing anything all that wrong.  I get what they were saying at half time but I genuinely think our problem was much closer to the breakdown.

That brings nicely to the fact that, after 20-25 minutes Haskell was competing with Brown and Robshaw for the most ineffective player on the pitch, I agree that he had a good second half but he was never man of the match, Itoje pretty much kept us in the game single-handedly in the first 25 before we started to boss the set piece and use that to slow the game down and let their indiscipline get us back into the game.

It was a big win but that can't be allowed to stop rightful criticism and the main criticism I have is that we have no pace in our backrow which creates space out wide if teams can get the ball out quickly, we've conceded 2 tries in the corner because of it.  The current backrow is the same one that let us down so badly in the last world cup and their deficiencies are being covered by the quality of Itoje right now.  Fundamentally Haskell and Robshaw are both 6s and it should be a choice between them, then you pick someone at 7 who either gives you a bit of dog to slow the ball down and let your backs line up or you pick someone with the pace to cover round and fill in the line, Harrison and Clifford give you those options.

The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.

Robson should be the first choice 9, he was immense yesterday.

Add in Mallinder who will clearly step up from the U20s to the main squad over the next year and Nathen Hughes who becomes eligible for the Autumn and we've got a lot of extra quality to come back into this squad.

Sorry Paul,  but, you must have been watching a different Haskell to everyone else who saw the game. 18 tackles and 3 turnovers
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the game, but I think your obvious dislike of him clouds your opinion.
Itoje was great, too, the lad just gets better and better.
There were some massive performances out there today.
I will add that I wish we had a Michael Hooper!!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 11, 2016, 04:07:37 PM
Great by Haskell, Having a great game.

Great tactical move by Eddie Jones replacing Burrell, paul

The problem with that Burrell sub is that he's the sort of player who lets things get to him, that's probably ended his tour after 25minutes and largely because our backrow were completely incapable of slowing down the ball.  I don't disagree that the change did help us but I'm not sure if the cost is worth paying over the 3 matches given that I don't think Burrell was really doing anything all that wrong.  I get what they were saying at half time but I genuinely think our problem was much closer to the breakdown.

That brings nicely to the fact that, after 20-25 minutes Haskell was competing with Brown and Robshaw for the most ineffective player on the pitch, I agree that he had a good second half but he was never man of the match, Itoje pretty much kept us in the game single-handedly in the first 25 before we started to boss the set piece and use that to slow the game down and let their indiscipline get us back into the game.

It was a big win but that can't be allowed to stop rightful criticism and the main criticism I have is that we have no pace in our backrow which creates space out wide if teams can get the ball out quickly, we've conceded 2 tries in the corner because of it.  The current backrow is the same one that let us down so badly in the last world cup and their deficiencies are being covered by the quality of Itoje right now.  Fundamentally Haskell and Robshaw are both 6s and it should be a choice between them, then you pick someone at 7 who either gives you a bit of dog to slow the ball down and let your backs line up or you pick someone with the pace to cover round and fill in the line, Harrison and Clifford give you those options.

The Saxons side yesterday would beat a few teams.

Robson should be the first choice 9, he was immense yesterday.

Add in Mallinder who will clearly step up from the U20s to the main squad over the next year and Nathen Hughes who becomes eligible for the Autumn and we've got a lot of extra quality to come back into this squad.

Sorry Paul,  but, you must have been watching a different Haskell to everyone else who saw the game. 18 tackles and 3 turnovers
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the game, but I think your obvious dislike of him clouds your opinion.
Itoje was great, too, the lad just gets better and better.
There were some massive performances out there today.
I will add that I wish we had a Michael Hooper!!

Not at all, as I said Haskell was very good for the last 55-60 minutes and the stats back that up.  The issue is that before that he wasn't competing at the breakdown to slow play down , he wasn't getting around the pitch to fill gaps and he looked like exactly what he is, a 6 who was playing out of position.  I don't dislike him anything like as much as you think, I just think he has a tendency to do stupid things when he gets angry (much the same issue I have with Brown, Youngs and Farrell, although Farrell has improved in the last year) which cause us to have a rep for being indisciplined.

Hooper (who you rightly pick out as being a great player) is exactly why our backrow was wrong, we had no way of nullifying his ability to be an extra back because we were letting them get quick ball but we weren't lining up our quick men out wide. To counter that they were all over everything (early on) and we had absolutely no quick ball so by the time we got it out they'd all realigned and we were running into a wall.  Unfortunately for them our extra physicality in the front 5 started to tell and made them to go a bit too far in trying to slow the ball which meant penalties, if they'd been a little more disciplined when they were on top I think the game could've been in a very different place at half time but once we had a decent lead we were always favourites.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 11, 2016, 05:57:24 PM
Impressive for Ireland that. I flicked off for the football when they were down to fourteen men with three-quarters of the game left and thought no more of it.

Never expected to see they'd won.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 11, 2016, 06:01:55 PM
Impressive for Ireland that. I flicked off for the football when they were down to fourteen men with three-quarters of the game left and thought no more of it.

Never expected to see they'd won.

Could have been by more as well, they were immense.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 11, 2016, 08:30:49 PM
Ireland were superb, fully desetved their win.

After that i watched the England U20 side demolish the scots, it was pretty embarrassing, dominated everywhere, scotland played ok but England were truly brilliant, finished 44-0 and that flattered the scots.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 11, 2016, 11:35:38 PM
Interesting to see how the Aussies rated the players:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/who-starred-and-who-flopped-for-england-during-their-hoodoo-breaking-win-over-the-wallabies/news-story/0ec12c5fcd4dfd14a90bba412c45f7e8
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 12, 2016, 12:28:40 AM
Interesting to see how the Aussies rated the players:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/who-starred-and-who-flopped-for-england-during-their-hoodoo-breaking-win-over-the-wallabies/news-story/0ec12c5fcd4dfd14a90bba412c45f7e8

Not a million miles off, I'd have had Robshaw as a 7 and I'd have swapped itoje and haskell.  I think they were generous to Brown who had another poor game, he's been out of form for about 18 months now and really shouldn't be on this tour.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 12, 2016, 10:41:20 AM
Interesting to see how the Aussies rated the players:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/who-starred-and-who-flopped-for-england-during-their-hoodoo-breaking-win-over-the-wallabies/news-story/0ec12c5fcd4dfd14a90bba412c45f7e8

Not a million miles off, I'd have had Robshaw as a 7 and I'd have swapped itoje and haskell.  I think they were generous to Brown who had another poor game, he's been out of form for about 18 months now and really shouldn't be on this tour.

I'd have had Haskell a 9.9 ...... just kidding paul :-)

For me they are about right.
Unfortunately, I have to agree on Mike Brown, bit of a fan of Brown, but, you're right, he hasn't been playing particularly well for 18 months. Surprised Alex Goode hasn't had a crack, or even a back line of Yarde, Nowell & Watson
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Pat McMahon on June 12, 2016, 10:47:25 AM
Does anybody know where there are links to the highlights of yesterday's games? I don't have Sky so haven't even seen the tries.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on June 12, 2016, 11:04:26 AM
Impressive for Ireland that. I flicked off for the football when they were down to fourteen men with three-quarters of the game left and thought no more of it.

Never expected to see they'd won.

I did the same

Just watched the highlights. By then I'd heard that they'd won but as I watched the interception try by SA, I still could see how Ireland had hung on. Superb defence.

Definite Red Card for me. It might not have been deliberate but that charge was one of the most reckless things I've seen on a rugby field for a long time.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 12, 2016, 12:45:43 PM
Does anybody know where there are links to the highlights of yesterday's games? I don't have Sky so haven't even seen the tries.

Not sure how long this will be available for:

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 12, 2016, 02:18:12 PM
This is the link I used
http://www.rugbystream.net/live/watch-england-vs-live-stream-rugby-free/
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 12, 2016, 07:12:47 PM
Got to say that the three rugby internationals have pissed on the football for entertainment so far.  Admittedly I'm guessing about the NZ v Wales match but I fail to see how that cannot have been a rollercoaster of a game.  Impressive (for rugby) considering they're friendlies that a fair few players would probably prefer to be elsewhere.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 12, 2016, 07:33:33 PM
Got to say that the three rugby internationals have pissed on the football for entertainment so far.  Admittedly I'm guessing about the NZ v Wales match but I fail to see how that cannot have been a rollercoaster of a game.  Impressive (for rugby) considering they're friendlies that a fair few players would probably prefer to be elsewhere.

Believe me, Dante, these games are the real deal, and the players are exactly where they want to be.
I'd go as far as to say that there's no such thing as a 'friendly' in rugby.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 12, 2016, 09:54:15 PM
Got to say that the three rugby internationals have pissed on the football for entertainment so far.  Admittedly I'm guessing about the NZ v Wales match but I fail to see how that cannot have been a rollercoaster of a game.  Impressive (for rugby) considering they're friendlies that a fair few players would probably prefer to be elsewhere.

Believe me, Dante, these games are the real deal, and the players are exactly where they want to be.
I'd go as far as to say that there's no such thing as a 'friendly' in rugby.

Agree, there's nothing friendly about england vs aus or wales vs NZ and SA probably don't understand the concept of word.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 12, 2016, 10:41:50 PM
I agree (excluding the Barbarians).  But that just emphasises the difference in application and force of will.
Most of the northern hemisphere players would be better off resting than being part of this tour (hence why Australia have not called up their players based in france) but they've all turned up and put in massive performances whereas the footballers still seem to be toying with each other.  Hopefully the football will ignite in the last group game and knock out phases.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Pat McMahon on June 12, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
Brilliant, thanks Paul e
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 13, 2016, 10:00:00 AM
World of difference though Dante. The teams at the Euros are in Group stages where 1 defeat even in the first game could see you more or less sent home unless something drastic happens. Not losing becomes more important to a lot of teams. Rugby games are usually one of affairs and even the 6 Nations is only 5 games where 'winner takes all'. Again, its very rare you see a draw in rugby given the high points total so teams start with a win or lose mentality. A game rarely ends 0-0 ( I vaguely remember 1 in Wales in the late 80s/early 90s? There was also a 1-0 in rugby league around that time).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on June 13, 2016, 10:10:29 AM
I vaguely remember the 0-0 in Wales (I'll go along with 80s) and I think there was one in Bristol as well.

However, I can't remember any of the teams involved

I've witnessed a couple of 3-0 games
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 13, 2016, 12:53:37 PM
I vaguely remember the 0-0 in Wales (I'll go along with 80s) and I think there was one in Bristol as well.

However, I can't remember any of the teams involved

I've witnessed a couple of 3-0 games

I've played in a 3-0 - we won with a penalty in the last few minutes with both sides having missed 5-6 kickable ones, was on a mudpit in the rain/fog and we barely got in each others 22 let alone stood a chance of a try, comfortably the worst game I've ever been involved in, I was playing 8 and came off after an hour because I had nothing left from pick and drive through treacle (we had about 60-70 scrums because of knock-ons).  Ball was a bar of soap, both teams were in brown and the rain/fog was so bad at one point that you couldn't see the posts from the halfway line.  I'd love to see some of the 7s players have a go on a pitch like that.

Anyway, back on track, it's absolutely right you don't really get the 'all hands to the pumps style defensive performances in rugby because you just can't defend for 75 minutes and then nick it at the end, certainly not at international level you have to score points or they'll get enough drop-goal/penalty opportunities to kill the game long before the end.  The gritty, grind it out results tend to be more like Japan vs SA in the world cup where you give everything up front and at the breakdown and earn the right to create try scoring chances through sheer will.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 13, 2016, 06:22:29 PM
I vaguely remember the 0-0 in Wales (I'll go along with 80s) and I think there was one in Bristol as well.

However, I can't remember any of the teams involved

I've witnessed a couple of 3-0 games

Played in a 0-0 at school vrs Leamington school
and a 3-0 when I was playing for the Fire Service down in London. It was blowing a gale force wind diagonally across the pitch. It was a case of which team got a kickable penalty in just the right place.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on June 13, 2016, 08:57:24 PM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 13, 2016, 09:33:47 PM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

How?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: dave shelley on June 13, 2016, 09:35:21 PM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

How?

They all had no arms.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on June 14, 2016, 08:51:31 AM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

How?

They all had no arms.

Someone forgot to put the baskets up.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 14, 2016, 09:37:13 AM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

That must be as close to impossible as you can get
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 14, 2016, 10:03:35 AM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

That must be as close to impossible as you can get

It can't be far below a cricket limited over game being a 0-10 to 0-10 draw in terms of the most unlikely results ever.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 14, 2016, 01:37:57 PM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

That must be as close to impossible as you can get

It can't be far below a cricket limited over game being a 0-10 to 0-10 draw in terms of the most unlikely results ever.

Played in a house game at school where we bowled out the other lot for under 10. Four rings a bell.
I was pretty useless with the bat and couldn't bowl, but I was a great fielder in the slips
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 14, 2016, 03:01:10 PM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

That must be as close to impossible as you can get

It can't be far below a cricket limited over game being a 0-10 to 0-10 draw in terms of the most unlikely results ever.

Played in a house game at school where we bowled out the other lot for under 10. Four rings a bell.
I was pretty useless with the bat and couldn't bowl, but I was a great fielder in the slips

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/news/10791347/Wirral-Cricket-Club-3-all-out-in-freak-performance.html - I doubt anyone will ever match that.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 14, 2016, 05:27:31 PM
Forget rugby ending 0-0, I once played in a basketball game that ended up scoreless

Was that the Tony Pulis v Alex McLeish All Star game?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 17, 2016, 02:34:48 PM
Anyone care to make a prediction for tomorrows second test in Melbourne?  I'll go England by 6.

Craig Joubert is the referee, apparently Australia officials attended England's pre match briefing with Joubert which although is allowed very rarely actually happens, seems they have beef with how the game was officiated last week.

It's also Robshaw's 50th cap on Saturday.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: VILLA MOLE on June 17, 2016, 02:37:53 PM
Anyone care to make a prediction for tomorrows second test in Melbourne?  I'll go England by 6.

Craig Joubert is the referee, apparently Australia officials attended England's pre match briefing with Joubert which although is allowed very rarely actually happens, seems they have beef with how the game was officiated last week.


Not a Rugby Guru , but what didnt they like ?
It's also Robshaw's 50th cap on Saturday.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 17, 2016, 02:56:17 PM
Anyone care to make a prediction for tomorrows second test in Melbourne?  I'll go England by 6.

Craig Joubert is the referee, apparently Australia officials attended England's pre match briefing with Joubert which although is allowed very rarely actually happens, seems they have beef with how the game was officiated last week.


Not a Rugby Guru , but what didnt they like ?
It's also Robshaw's 50th cap on Saturday.

They're Australian, they'll fucking moan and whinge about anything and everything.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 17, 2016, 03:08:02 PM
I think Australia by a considerable amount. 15 or 20.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 17, 2016, 04:12:16 PM
What didn't they like? Losing!

For the game I have england by about 14.  I think our front 5 are far too good for them andxthey won't cope with it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 17, 2016, 06:58:28 PM
Full highlights of the 1st test - Aussie TV

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 17, 2016, 07:04:40 PM
I think Australia by a considerable amount. 15 or 20.

I would be absolutely astonished if that happened.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 17, 2016, 07:21:01 PM
I'm naturally nervous when it comes to England or Villa.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 18, 2016, 09:49:47 AM
Wales pushing the All Blacks again.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 18, 2016, 11:04:20 AM
Link for England vs Australia
http://www.vipbox.nu/rugby/393195/1/australia-vs-england-live-stream-online.html
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on June 18, 2016, 11:15:38 AM
Wales pushing the All Blacks again.

Like a cat playing with a mouse.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: spangley1812 on June 18, 2016, 11:36:41 AM
7 - 0 ..........England
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 18, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
Lets just have an extra 4 mins because the time judge blows his hooter 2 seconds late!!!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: spangley1812 on June 18, 2016, 12:19:39 PM
England winning 10 - 7

Just started 2nd half.....me thinks this is going to be close
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on June 18, 2016, 12:58:35 PM
Brilliant performance from England. The defence has been outstanding.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 18, 2016, 01:01:15 PM
What didn't they like? Losing!

For the game I have england by about 14.  I think our front 5 are far too good for them and they won't cope with it.

Ok 16, was close enough!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 18, 2016, 01:02:12 PM
Unbelievable stuff, brilliant.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 18, 2016, 01:05:31 PM
Special credit to Ford, his game management was superb, Hartley wad brilliant as well, the captaincy has nudged him to a new level.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 18, 2016, 01:09:18 PM
Plenty of heroes out there today.
Itoje, Words can't be found for how good this lad can be
Haskell, great, again.
Robshaw, MotM, best game for England?

Must mention George Ford, fantastic character to come back from a hounding vrs Wales.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: West Derby Villan on June 18, 2016, 01:51:23 PM
Plenty of heroes out there today.
Itoje, Words can't be found for how good this lad can be
Haskell, great, again.
Robshaw, MotM, best game for England?

Must mention George Ford, fantastic character to come back from a hounding vrs Wales.

And Eddie Jones of course
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 18, 2016, 03:14:00 PM
All the backrow were terrific today.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 18, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
Plenty of heroes out there today.
Itoje, Words can't be found for how good this lad can be
Haskell, great, again.
Robshaw, MotM, best game for England?

Must mention George Ford, fantastic character to come back from a hounding vrs Wales.

And Eddie Jones of course

Spot on, mate, so easy to forget his impact.
He's made some big calls this tour and, imo, has been right on them all
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 18, 2016, 03:43:54 PM
Special credit to Ford, his game management was superb, Hartley wad brilliant as well, the captaincy has nudged him to a new level.

I'm sure Eddie Jones mentioned recently that Ford is world class in that department.
 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Colhint on June 18, 2016, 04:47:58 PM
ireland bullying sa now
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 18, 2016, 05:00:08 PM
What skill for the Irish try to palm the ball back like that just as it looks like it's going into touch.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 18, 2016, 05:51:27 PM
Eddie Jones has been incredible for England. I thought Farrell was very good today too.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 18, 2016, 05:57:33 PM
With ten minutes to go the tackle count was 50 Aus v 150 England.  Incredible that they won the game, it's a big statement.

Thoughts on the refereeing of the Scrum?  I think the Aussies, or the pitch, was given the benefit of the doubt a number of occasions where we should have had a penalty.  Any front rows out there understand it better than a wussy back?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 18, 2016, 06:21:29 PM
Eddie Jones has been incredible for England. I thought Farrell was very good today too.

With what is essentially Lancaster's team bar a few exceptions he's turning them from no hopers to genuine contenders for a shot at the title, incredibly well done

Oh and let's not forget the Saxons won their series in SA yesterday as well, the future is indeed bright for England rugby.

8 on the bounce now for Eddie, a win next week and I'll be looking forward to numbers 10 and 11 in the 2 Autumn tests at Twickenham.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 18, 2016, 10:42:10 PM
Today's full match highlights

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Pat McMahon on June 19, 2016, 01:14:48 AM
Today's full match highlights



Cheers for posting peter w. Interesting to hear a different style of commentary
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 19, 2016, 01:17:29 AM
Yeah I like to listen to how the other side see it. i remember from 2003 and it's the same here, when they're losing to England they don't half whinge.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Pat McMahon on June 19, 2016, 01:47:36 AM
I was in Australia during the 2003 WC ( not for the tournament, just coincidence) and they were mighty whingeful. However from the moment the final finished they were very gracious.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 19, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Apart from Howard.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on June 20, 2016, 05:17:01 PM
They call us whinging poms but fuck me do they ever bitch and whine if they don't get everything their own way.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 20, 2016, 08:01:29 PM
Annoying scheduling to have the U20 semi on at the same time as  the football but 12-3 after 15minutes and we're running rampant against SA.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 20, 2016, 08:03:52 PM
Annoying scheduling to have the U20 semi on at the same time as  the football but 12-3 after 15minutes and we're running rampant against SA.

Could be a red card here as well, horrific clash in the air leading to a tip tackle.  Ref has been pretty lenient and given it as a yellow, was right on the edge.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 20, 2016, 08:16:51 PM
19-3 now after 28, England could easily have another couple of tries, just a couple of handling errors when we had a try in hand.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 20, 2016, 09:08:25 PM
up to 64mins, 34-17 now after a good fisrt ten in the 2nd half for the boks, we're back on top again now though.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 20, 2016, 09:30:03 PM
finished 39-17 and that probably doesn't show how much better England were, I honestly thought 50 points looked on.  The last England try was a thing of absolute beauty, 70-80 yard break with about 10 pop passes donw the 5 yard channel, just ripped them apart.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 21, 2016, 07:00:01 AM
Was that the Semi?  if so who do we meet (Arg or Ireland right?).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 21, 2016, 07:03:15 AM
...it's all here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36577645

The strength of the youngsters is impressive.  The fact that the league structure is so weird (when the 6-nations is on) seems to ensure that the players are blooded into the teams too. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 21, 2016, 07:56:25 AM
Was that the Semi?  if so who do we meet (Arg or Ireland right?).

Ireland in the other semi and they looked good as well but I don't think there is much between the packs and Englands biggest strength is the midfield, Mallinder, Williams and Marchant at 10, 12 and 13 is far too good with all 3 being well established in the club first team squads.  Against SA we just overloaded them in midfield and the got it wide and burned them with pace in the 5 yard channel, 4 tries came from that and I can't see Ireland stopping it either becuase the quality of those midfield runners pins defenders in, all 3 will destroy you if you leave gaps.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 21, 2016, 11:02:23 AM
Highlights - https://www.facebook.com/OfficialEnglandRugby/videos/10153877703954825/ - the 3rd try (especially the way the 15 passes out of the tackle to straighten them up) and the last try are superb.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 23, 2016, 12:57:28 PM
1 change for the last test, Harrison in for Haskell with the other 22 in the squad as they were.  I'm happy for him, he's the form back row player in europe right now so he deserved some game time on this tour, and at 7 so he can really show what he can do.  Shame for Haskell who i assume hasn't recovered from the knock that made him come off (he couldn't run when he came off but I'm not sure what he did).
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 23, 2016, 01:01:36 PM
Shame for Haskell? You'll be saying that Andy Goode deserves a spot but unlikely because of the magnificent Mike Brown, next.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 23, 2016, 01:17:08 PM
No my issue with Haskell has always been that he's a. not a 7 and b. makes stupid mistakes.  In the last 6 months he's improved on the latter of those to the point where his place in the squad is much harder to argue against.  I still think that him and Robshaw at 6 and 7 isn't a long term solution though and that's where my real anger lies at the selections.

Alex (not andy) Goode being the obvious replacement for Brown has actually had the opposite effect of tempering me calling for him to be dropped, Goode just doesn't have the pace to be an international fullback and no amount of good club form will make up for that. I honestly believe Brown has been the worst player on the pitch for 2 games running, I don't rate him at his best and right now he's woefully out of form and should never have been taken on the tour let alone start all 3 games.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 25, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
Wales are getting a tanking here.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 25, 2016, 10:08:12 AM
I hope England don't take the cricket team's approach to the last match in a series.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 25, 2016, 11:54:57 AM
Cracking game, Harrison swapped in tactical change a la Burrell.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cdbullyweefan on June 25, 2016, 01:05:32 PM
Potentially exciting finish on BBC2 Scotland of any of you feel like watching more rugby.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 25, 2016, 01:20:18 PM
Good game, I think the Harrison change was very harsh, yes we had some issues at the breakdown but they didn't suddenly go away and he was taken off when we'd just gone back into the lead, being taken off before half time is a real mark of dishonor, to do that to 2 players in a 3 match series when both had earned the right to be involved feels a little bit like he saying that only the people who'd trained with England during the 6N were capable of fitting into the squad, which doesn't really offer much incentive for people on the edges of the squad.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 25, 2016, 01:39:56 PM
Just enough in the tank to get over the line today, not sure if Australia targeted Brown from restarts but the number of times they had 2 or 3 backs all over him could have cost us even dearer than it ultimately did.  The mobility of the back line swung it combined with the fact we took what was offered up, Australia didn't.

3-0 was fully deserved an amazing turn around from RWC.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 25, 2016, 01:50:26 PM
Unbelievable stuff. Jones should be knighted!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: The Left Side on June 25, 2016, 03:25:19 PM
Phenomenal stuff from England
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 25, 2016, 04:06:05 PM
I'll say another thing Farrell has come on massively as a player.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: West Derby Villan on June 25, 2016, 04:16:48 PM
Fantastic result, fantastic series. I agree with previous posters Eddie Jones has transformed us into a force, which, will get better and better
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 25, 2016, 08:59:59 PM
I hope my post earlier didn't come across as negatively as it reads back now, i think the referendum was still too fresh which made me sound angrier than i was.

The result was very good, the series has been brilliant and i think it's now pretty clear that there is a top 2.  I also think the 9 wins in a row show up just how poor a coach Lancaster was.

Moving on the U20s utterly demolished Ireland in the final, Mallinder was utterly brilliant again, i honestly think he'll be in the full squad by the autumn.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on June 26, 2016, 06:31:37 AM
Fantastic result, fantastic series. I agree with previous posters Eddie Jones has transformed us into a force, which, will get better and better

The interesting thing is Eddie Jones was not particularly happy after the whitewash last night. That's the sign of a coach who thinks a lot of improvement can be made.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on June 26, 2016, 09:43:36 AM
Jones has been brilliant and has turned us into a winning side, who will only get better. Farrell's game has massively improved under him.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: OzVilla on June 26, 2016, 10:56:37 AM
There are few sights more beautiful than watching Australian tv Rugby pundits, most of whom took part in a pre-tour tv ad deriding England's chances, having to eat humble pie. They were gutted.

Hasnt stopoed them still banging on about scoring more tries than England in 2 out of the 3 matches though. You'd think that it was only tries that counted.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on June 26, 2016, 11:01:06 AM
There are few sights more beautiful than watching Australian tv Rugby pundits, most of whom took part in a pre-tour tv ad deriding England's chances, having to eat humble pie. They were gutted.

Hasnt stopoed them still banging on about scoring more tries than England in 2 out of the 3 matches though. You'd think that it was only tries that counted.

Easy response to that OZVilla. Just remind them of the number of penalties they gave away, spoiling play at the breakdown. If they hadn't kept doing this England would have scored a lot more tries.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: OzVilla on June 26, 2016, 11:08:22 AM
There are few sights more beautiful than watching Australian tv Rugby pundits, most of whom took part in a pre-tour tv ad deriding England's chances, having to eat humble pie. They were gutted.

Hasnt stopoed them still banging on about scoring more tries than England in 2 out of the 3 matches though. You'd think that it was only tries that counted.

Easy response to that OZVilla. Just remind them of the number of penalties they gave away, spoiling play at the breakdown. If they hadn't kept doing this England would have scored a lot more tries.

thanks, I'll remember that one JD but funnily enough no ones really mentioning it, which is weird because after beating us at the WC last year there was a flipping chorus line of them wanting to talk Rugby. Strange that!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on June 26, 2016, 11:24:12 AM
In Wales at The Australia bar, Pothmadog, pretty quiet, as you can imagine e 😊
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 26, 2016, 11:28:20 AM
Any highlights about?  Missed it yesterday. 
Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Villa in Denmark on June 26, 2016, 12:51:11 PM
Oz press taking it well :)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClzCWZPUgAQMki9.jpg)
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on June 26, 2016, 01:16:47 PM
Jones has been brilliant and has turned us into a winning side, who will only get better. Farrell's game has massively improved under him.

I think it's more subtle than that, I think Jones has given him the confidence to play for England like he has been for Saracens for a good couple of years now. Either way, he's definitely playing better in a white shirt than he was before Jones took over.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 26, 2016, 02:17:29 PM
What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on June 26, 2016, 07:23:49 PM
What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.

I think the way Bath played all season shows that if that was likely, you should drop Ford and move Farrell to 10.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 26, 2016, 07:35:20 PM
What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.

I think the way Bath played all season shows that if that was likely, you should drop Ford and move Farrell to 10.

I'm not sure that would solve the problem.  If the pack is going backwards then we need to start moving big units about.  I'd suggest that Ford has a better tactical kicking game and is definitely better from the hand.  Not as good when kicking for the posts and physical impact but otherwise I'd still suggest he's a better players.  Admittedly the gap has closed significantly.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 26, 2016, 10:09:47 PM
What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.

I think the way Bath played all season shows that if that was likely, you should drop Ford and move Farrell to 10.

I'm not sure that would solve the problem.  If the pack is going backwards then we need to start moving big units about.  I'd suggest that Ford has a better tactical kicking game and is definitely better from the hand.  Not as good when kicking for the posts and physical impact but otherwise I'd still suggest he's a better players.  Admittedly the gap has closed significantly.

Exactly I think we need to find a genuine alternative at 12 and start picking 2 from 3 depending on the opponent.  I thought Slade might be that player but Jones doesn't seem convinced.  By the next world cup I suspect that Mallinder will have forced the issue, given the record of winning captains moving into the main squad within a few years (Itoje and Clifford) I think he's certain to be well on the radar.  If he plays with Ford he gives you the extra distance and accuracy from the tee and if he plays with Farrell his tactical kicking is superb.  Being 6' 4 and a bit of a brick shithouse helps a lot as well.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on June 27, 2016, 07:15:14 AM
Sam Burgess.  Remember him?  No thought not.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 27, 2016, 09:27:02 AM
What we need now is for a team to match us up front to see if we can be effective without clear dominance in the set piece. That's where Farrell at 12 takes something away from us.

Christ you're the LTA of the International Rugby thread aren't you. So far in the last year you've been anti Haskell, Farrell, Robshaw, Brown and I'm sure there are others that I've missed. When Haskell played well against someone in the 6 Nations i posted a journo's breakdown and you posted a long reply on how they were wrong and you were right.

Haskell has been brilliant, Robshaw too, and you your reply is 'yeah but I'm right because they should be playing so and so in so and so, not at so and so'. Farrell has come on leaps and bounds under Jones - which started under Lancaster but you want to point out that again you wouldn't play Farrell at 12 and you know better than Eddie Jones.

We've won 3-0 on the back of a Grand Slam and surely, surely, you can just sit back relax enjoy the moment and think, maybe Eddie Jones knows slightly more than I do? Relax man, England are winning, the sun is shining, leave your negativity for when we're losing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on June 27, 2016, 09:42:38 AM
Sam Burgess.  Remember him?  No thought not.

If they hadn't tried to shoe-horn him into the side a year before he was ready I think he'd still be playing union and would've played a big part going forward, as a linebreaking runner he could've been the best in the world, just like he is in League, but he needed to learn to time his runs which is the major difference for a crash runner between the 2, for league the pass is easier to predict because quick ball is guaranteed.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 27, 2016, 01:48:05 PM
Sorry for being lazy, but does anyone know a good link for highlights of Saturday's game?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: DaveD on June 27, 2016, 02:00:38 PM
Sorry for being lazy, but does anyone know a good link for highlights of Saturday's game?

Try this

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153888997419825&id=48835794824
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on June 27, 2016, 02:02:06 PM
Thank you.  I will watch tonight.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on June 27, 2016, 10:30:53 PM
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on September 07, 2016, 01:31:47 PM
Gatland named as 2017 Lions tour ahead coach, cue a team full of fat, unfit out of form Welshmen.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on September 07, 2016, 04:17:33 PM
Gatland named as 2017 Lions tour ahead coach, cue a team full of fat, unfit out of form Welshmen.

If the 6N goes the same as last season anything less than 17-18 English players in the squad will be a joke.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on September 07, 2016, 05:33:27 PM
I don't like a kiwi taking them to New Zealand either.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on September 07, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
I'm pleased it wasn't Eddie Jones.
He can concentrate on the England job.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on September 07, 2016, 07:52:22 PM
If he sets up the team like he did in Aus we'll get massacred.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cdbullyweefan on October 08, 2016, 06:00:20 PM
Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 08, 2016, 06:12:58 PM
9 tries, not too shabby, I'm looking forward to watching England open them up at Twickenham in a few weeks time.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on October 08, 2016, 06:54:45 PM
I think Jones needs to look at these training camps. Across Judo and intense fitness work that's now Jones, Watson and Nowell out for the Autumn.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 08, 2016, 06:58:17 PM
Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.

A bit of both to be fair, this is the same bok side that deservedly lost to Japan remember. New Zealand are the world number one, quite clearly, and England are the world number 2, again quite clearly.  After that you have a bunch of sides who can match those 2 in 1 off games (maybe) but are a long way short of being able to hit that level consistently.  SA are just in that group but only if they can put out their best 15.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: JD on October 11, 2016, 07:59:52 AM
Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.

A bit of both to be fair, this is the same bok side that deservedly lost to Japan remember. New Zealand are the world number one, quite clearly, and England are the world number 2, again quite clearly.  After that you have a bunch of sides who can match those 2 in 1 off games (maybe) but are a long way short of being able to hit that level consistently.  SA are just in that group but only if they can put out their best 15.

The All Blacks have a scarily good squad at the moment and that's the big difference between them and everyone else. All the changes they make during a game makes they stronger as they are replacing world class players with players just as good. There is lots of competition for places at the moment and they could probably field three teams that would beat most other countries (sadly). 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 11, 2016, 09:19:38 AM
Either New Zealand are a bit good, or Di Matteo has taken over as Springboks coach.

A bit of both to be fair, this is the same bok side that deservedly lost to Japan remember. New Zealand are the world number one, quite clearly, and England are the world number 2, again quite clearly.  After that you have a bunch of sides who can match those 2 in 1 off games (maybe) but are a long way short of being able to hit that level consistently.  SA are just in that group but only if they can put out their best 15.

The All Blacks have a scarily good squad at the moment and that's the big difference between them and everyone else. All the changes they make during a game makes they stronger as they are replacing world class players with players just as good. There is lots of competition for places at the moment and they could probably field three teams that would beat most other countries (sadly). 

I agree, that's why England are 2nd as well, The 2nd 15 would be a match for most sides.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 11, 2016, 05:33:51 PM
I was going to post something similar. Kvesic would be an automatic pick for most international sides by way of example. He can't get in our squad.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 11, 2016, 06:41:48 PM
I was going to post something similar. Kvesic would be an automatic pick for most international sides by way of example. He can't get in our squad.

Ben Morgan is 3rd choice at 8, Lawes struggles to make the bench, Cipriani can't make the squad.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on October 11, 2016, 06:47:59 PM
And all of them piss over Scotlands options, by way of example.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on October 25, 2016, 02:11:59 PM
Just under 3 weeks now until England start their Autumn Internationals at Twickenham with the visit of the Springboks. 

Let's have your predictions for the series as follows.....

November 12 England v South Africa 14:30 Twickenham

November 19 England v Fiji 14:30 Twickenham

November 26 England v Argentina 14:30 Twickenham

December 3 England v Australia 14:30 Twickenham

A tough opener and closer and the Pumas won't be easy, neither will the physicality of the Fijians, a proper good test of Eddie Jones' & Englands credentials coming up. 

I'll go with.....

England to beat SA by 6
England to beat Fiji by 18
England to beat Arg by 10
England to beat shackle dragging convicts by 38
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on October 25, 2016, 06:46:30 PM
With all the injuries in various positions I think all games could be a lot closer, John.

I can't wait to see our back row, we could very well be fielding 3rd/4th choices in those positions.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on October 25, 2016, 07:56:03 PM
Sunday was my first visit to HQ in 30 years.

Not impressed at all

A poorly designed mass of concrete
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 25, 2016, 08:00:26 PM
Beat SA by about 10
Beat Fiji by 20-25
Beat Argies by 15
Beat Aus by 7

SA look a weak side, I think I might have been a bit generous to them if I'm honest.  We'll batter Fiji, they haven't got the pack to compete with us.  Argies are better than ever but they're still very reliant on their pack and our backline will pick them off.  Aus is the tougher one to call, we mullered them in the summer but with Itoje missing I do wonder if we'll be able to boss them at the breakdown.  I think the final tour game (40-44) is the one that we should be looking at for hints and I expect a big scoring game.

In terms of injuries it's only really 7 that's got big question marks.  The announcement of the squad tomorrow will be very interesting.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Exeter 77 on October 25, 2016, 08:00:55 PM
Ashton seems to have given up on playing for England again - signed for Toulon for next season.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 25, 2016, 08:07:09 PM
Ashton seems to have given up on playing for England again - signed for Toulon for next season.

I think England gave up on him first when he didn't get included in the summer training squad.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on October 26, 2016, 10:15:42 AM
Squad for Autumn internationals.

Forwards

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Alex Goode (Saracens), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 26, 2016, 12:21:10 PM
Very disappointed with his choices at 9, he's getting very close to having to give up any suggestion of picking players on form, Care in particular has been in poor form for about 18 months whilst Robson is clearly the best 9 in the country.

I'm worried we're going to see Robshaw at 7 where he's been proven to be totally out of his depth but we'll see.  On the wings it will be interesting, I suspect Yarde and 1 from May or Roko.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on October 29, 2016, 03:05:14 PM
There's a interesting interview with Jones on the Beeb about Wood who he calls a 6 and a half (same as Robshaw) where he seems to suggest that he could play Wood and Robshaw at 6 and 7 but then he also says Harrison is probably the first choice at openside.  It's all very interesting because I think he sees Wood as an option for his ability in the line out but knows that Harrison would give us better balance in open play.  Should be interesting but I can already see him picking a 6/2 bench so he can have harrison/wood and hughes without giving up cover in the front 5.  If he sticks with ford, farrell and JJ as the midfield I suspect we'll see Slade or Daly on the bench along with Care to give him the best options.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 05, 2016, 06:20:49 PM
How shit were Wales today?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 05, 2016, 09:37:31 PM
How shit were Wales today?


Haven't seen it but from the result I'm guessing about as shit as Wales usually are when they play Aus or NZ.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Ger Regan on November 05, 2016, 10:11:27 PM
Incredible result there for Ireland. For a bit it looked like a repeat of 2013....
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 05, 2016, 10:12:07 PM
Well played Ireland.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 05, 2016, 10:17:46 PM
Brilliant result for Ireland, I can honestly say I didn't think they had that in them.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 08, 2016, 08:20:43 PM
Looks like Wood and May will start. Also is Daly covering full back?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dave Summers on November 09, 2016, 05:53:58 PM
Seems as though Daly is starting at 13 on Saturday and Eddie's thinking of a 6/2 split on the bench. Marler, George, Sinckler, Atwood, Beaumont and Hughes covering the forwards.

Have a ticket and as always, looking forward to it
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 09, 2016, 06:07:24 PM
Surely JJ is starting isn't he?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dave Summers on November 09, 2016, 06:11:20 PM
Surely JJ is starting isn't he?
Seems not, journos  are saying that Daly has the nod over him. There is some suggestion of a slight injury, but Neil Hatley said today everyone is fit and ready to go.

Can never read Eddie can you?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 09, 2016, 09:17:05 PM
I pugged out for a debenture a while ago so I'm at all 4 games, taking along a few friends and even the wife gets an outing vs Australia, gotta keep her sweet to make up for 4 weeks on the lash.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 12, 2016, 02:45:17 PM
A couple of poor penalties and a few too many kicks, but brilliant try for May, made by a bit of genius from Daly.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2016, 03:05:23 PM
Bit of a struggle this.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on November 12, 2016, 03:12:40 PM
Bit of a struggle this.

UKR Sr turned up here at two O'clock to watch the match on Sky.

He's just abandoned due to frustration and driven off again :)

EDIT.....and therefore missed the Lawes try by about a minute
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: taylorsworkrate on November 12, 2016, 04:22:22 PM
South Africa score their first try of the day
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: taylorsworkrate on November 12, 2016, 04:25:26 PM
Why wouldn't you just kick the 3 points there? If you're going to kick it out anyway?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 12, 2016, 04:27:46 PM
The first SA try was a shocker of a decision but England are deserved winners.  A few superb performanes in there.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: taylorsworkrate on November 12, 2016, 04:37:47 PM
The first SA try was a shocker of a decision but England are deserved winners.  A few superb performanes in there.

I'm not counting that try. It's the sort of decision that should see the referee immediately banished from the sport.

England were good at times, but there should be much more to come
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2016, 04:39:22 PM
Mixture of excellent from England with a few bits of real sloppiness.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2016, 04:55:14 PM
Got to watch for those defensive errors.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 12, 2016, 07:00:22 PM
Watching it back it was a terrific performance by Youngs today.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 12, 2016, 07:02:24 PM
Poor South Africa  team, but, still a great result for this England team.
My MotM was Ben Youngs, but, I was a back after all 😊
There were some big performers out there, so no problem with Joe Launchbury. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 12, 2016, 07:03:39 PM
No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?  Ok Launchbury put a shift in but really a MOTM performance?

Anyway, great day at Twickenham, Lawes, Billy and May all superb, Robshaw gets better and better at 6.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 12, 2016, 10:02:02 PM
Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today.  He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.

I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision.  Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.

Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 13, 2016, 12:44:04 AM
Got to say Paul I think your being harsh on Youngs. The pack was great, but he was fantastic in his own right.

Farrell really is developing superbly as well.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 13, 2016, 11:12:55 AM
Got to say Paul I think your being harsh on Youngs. The pack was great, but he was fantastic in his own right.

Farrell really is developing superbly as well.

I think you misunderstand me. Youngs was superb yesterday, all i mean is that there won't have been a 9 in the world who doesn't look at that game and wish they could play with a pack like that.

He used the advantages the pack gave him brilliantly and, as the saying goes, controlled how much we won by, but the victory was decided by the forwards and in particular the 2nd row.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 13, 2016, 11:32:33 AM
Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today.  He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.

I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision.  Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.

Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.

Sorry, Paul, I see what you're saying.
By saying it was a poor SA team I didn't mean poor team as in poor squad of players.
I should have said that It was a poor SA team performance, and that was due to England's performance.

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 13, 2016, 02:21:26 PM
Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today.  He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.

I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision.  Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.

Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.

Sorry, Paul, I see what you're saying.
By saying it was a poor SA team I didn't mean poor team as in poor squad of players.
I should have said that It was a poor SA team performance, and that was due to England's performance.



Then we agree.  I only mention it because I saw a few others comments about them now having lost 5 in 6 and therefore it's not that big a win (it'll be no surprise to hear they're from the Welsh people) which is quite clearly nonsense.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 13, 2016, 07:30:18 PM
Youngs had a bit of an armchair ride today.  He explointed the space he was given magnificently but the pack (and Launchbury and Lawes in particular) were absoutely top draw, SA were over commiting to the breakdown and defending the channels really narrowly because our forwards were smashing the shit out of them which meant 2 steps out from the breakdown and there were big gaps.

I think they got it spot on but I'm surprised they didn't name drop Lawes before they gave the decision.  Honestly that was about 55 minutes of utter perfection from the forwards, early on they were a little imprecise and getting pinged for it and the last 5 we took our foot off the gas a little early but no one in the world would've been comfortable in the middle.

Oh and I disagree that SA were poor, they're not at their best but there's only 2 teams in world rugby who could've made them look at bad today.

Sorry, Paul, I see what you're saying.
By saying it was a poor SA team I didn't mean poor team as in poor squad of players.
I should have said that It was a poor SA team performance, and that was due to England's performance.



Then we agree.  I only mention it because I saw a few others comments about them now having lost 5 in 6 and therefore it's not that big a win (it'll be no surprise to hear they're from the Welsh people) which is quite clearly nonsense.

No mention of our 5 or 6 out, though 😊
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: UK Redsox on November 14, 2016, 02:07:25 PM
No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?   

His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 14, 2016, 02:20:13 PM
No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?   

His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb

du Toit - how they thought he was suitable to have as a flanker I'll never know, far too slow (and immobile) to be a modern back row, compare and contrast with Robshaw and Wood.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Pat McMahon on November 14, 2016, 02:25:28 PM
No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?   

His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb

du Toit - how they thought he was suitable to have as a flanker I'll never know, far too slow (and immobile) to be a modern back row, compare and contrast with Robshaw and Wood.

I have never played the game though I enjoy the internationals, and I honestly thought du Toit sold himself far too easily, good dummy though it was.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 14, 2016, 02:50:45 PM
No idea what it looked like on TV but how the hell was Ben Youngs not MOTM?   

His dummy to set up the Ford try was one of the most outrageous I've seen for many a year. The look of bemusement on the Bok bloke's face was superb

du Toit - how they thought he was suitable to have as a flanker I'll never know, far too slow (and immobile) to be a modern back row, compare and contrast with Robshaw and Wood.

I have never played the game though I enjoy the internationals, and I honestly thought du Toit sold himself far too easily, good dummy though it was.

Absolutely, he was  areal weak link for them as a fringe defender
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 19, 2016, 02:47:41 PM
Some truly brilliant play from England so far but this is showing the reason why Fiji haven't been invited into the Championship yet, totally out of their depth defensively.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 19, 2016, 04:25:51 PM
Some ropey defending in the middle of the game but that's another showing of why we're such a good side, we have so many threats.  Roko was outstanding, Daly and JJ were excellent and the pack were as solid as always.  We had 10 minutes either side of half time where the levels dropped and they scored a few which needs to be dealt with but there are a lot of positives there.  We have genuine competition for places all across the backline now, which is great.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 19, 2016, 05:11:13 PM
Some ropey defending in the middle of the game but that's another showing of why we're such a good side, we have so many threats.  Roko was outstanding, Daly and JJ were excellent and the pack were as solid as always.  We had 10 minutes either side of half time where the levels dropped and they scored a few which needs to be dealt with but there are a lot of positives there.  We have genuine competition for places all across the backline now, which is great.

Very much my take on it, too.
Game was pretty much over after 15 mins.
I also thought George Ford had a good game, he run the backs excellently, again.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 19, 2016, 05:37:29 PM
Yeah, I should've included Ford as well but I focused on the players who seem to be less secure in the team from the backs.  I'm still not convinced by Goode, 2-3 times he tackled high on players much bigger than him and got bounced, unforgivable in a fullback and that adds to a shocking start under the high ball in the first minute.  He did ok going forward but I don't think he's good enough, expecially with the competition available, to be picked for that alone.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 19, 2016, 09:39:08 PM
Given how many first choice players were out it was a great result. Jones has also had a dig at Wales. He is absolutely the man to make England great again.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 20, 2016, 11:55:49 AM
Post match interview



What was the dig at Wales?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2016, 12:16:00 PM
That's an advert for british gas not the interview!!

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 20, 2016, 01:31:58 PM
The strength in depth of the England squad is exceptional.  What is required now, to close the gap with NZ, is for 5 or 6 of the squad to become genuinely and constantly world class. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2016, 01:58:04 PM
The strength in depth of the England squad is exceptional.  What is required now, to close the gap with NZ, is for 5 or 6 of the squad to become genuinely and constantly world class. 

I honestly don't know how big that gap is any more. I also don't think we're far off from your requirement.  That are genuinely world class I think you have Itoje, Billy V and Watson as definites and Farrell is very close.  I'd then say that Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Hartley, Ford, Robshaw and JJ are all capable of world class performances but maybe not consistently enough.  I think that's a hell of a base to work from and I suspect Daly will add his name to the world class list before long and if Roko keeps going as he is he'll be there as well.

In the backs I find it quite stunning that if you were to pick our best backline now you end up with Slade, JJ/Daly (there's nothing between them for me, this is the biggest selection headache he has right now), Nowell and May fighting over 2 bench spots, that is ridiculous depth, all of those would start regularly for most other national sides.  Then on top of that you have people like Robson and Cipriani not even making the squad.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 20, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
Tuilagi too.  He's the forgotten man nowadays which might be a good thing as he can concentrate on developing his game rather than being the big hope for English rugby.

From the above do you eventually see Slade playing inside centre and one of Ford/Farrell being dropped?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2016, 02:16:47 PM
Tuilagi too.  He's the forgotten man nowadays which might be a good thing as he can concentrate on developing his game rather than being the big hope for English rugby.

From the above do you eventually see Slade playing inside centre and one of Ford/Farrell being dropped?

I think 10/12 is going to be very interesting over the next few years.  Ford and Farrell have shown their quality at this level but Slade is superb and then you have Cipriani as the best 10 in the league and Mallinder as the most exciting young back in the country. I wouldn't want to predict the starters in those positions come the World cup, it's going to be some really tough calls.  9 is interesting as well because he can't ignore the form of Robson for much longer and once he gets in I suspect he'll very quickly make the position his own.  Robson has a big advantage of being a converted 10 which means his game is much more rounded than most English SH's.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 20, 2016, 02:19:46 PM
Ford potentially leaving Bath could have an impact too.  Where he goes and what affect that has on his development could make or break his career.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2016, 03:30:12 PM
Ford potentially leaving Bath could have an impact too.  Where he goes and what affect that has on his development could make or break his career.

I agree but I don't see much in the rumours for now, they came about because his dad got sacked, he's in contract until 2018 and Bath don't want him to go.  I doubt anything will change next summer at least and then we'll see.  If he does move on I think Tigers would be a bad decision but I don't know if anywhere in England would be a good move for him, Saints would probably be the best but I'm far from convinced it would be right for him.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 20, 2016, 03:30:34 PM
You seem to have come round to Farrell a bit Paul, how come?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 20, 2016, 03:33:58 PM
Ford potentially leaving Bath could have an impact too.  Where he goes and what affect that has on his development could make or break his career.

I agree but I don't see much in the rumours for now, they came about because his dad got sacked, he's in contract until 2018 and Bath don't want him to go.  I doubt anything will change next summer at least and then we'll see.  If he does move on I think Tigers would be a bad decision but I don't know if anywhere in England would be a good move for him, Saints would probably be the best but I'm far from convinced it would be right for him.

He has activated a clause in his contract which means he can re-negotiate/leave at the end of this season.  Bath reckon they can still command a fee so far from definite that he will be leaving.  Saints would be a very good fit.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 20, 2016, 03:40:27 PM
I think Farrell has stepped up in the past year.  I think his improvement is 50% because of Saracen's dominance but also 50% because Farrell has looked at Ford's game and identified areas he needed to improve.  He will always be the better post kicker however he's getting close to matching Ford's attacking play, especially ball in hand.

Too often, under Lancaster, England would be dominant but not turn positions into 7 points.  I don't think that would be the case now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 20, 2016, 03:41:50 PM
I know, about the clause, I just don't see how it will play out, that's what I mean, the whole thing is a mess.  My concern with linking anyone to saints right now is that I don't think Mallinder will be there next season and that leaves a lot of questions to be answered.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 20, 2016, 05:01:57 PM
That's an advert for british gas not the interview!!



Oops, cheers mate, bit of a URL faux pas 😯
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 20, 2016, 05:22:30 PM
Post match interview



What was the dig at Wales?

I suspect it was Jones's belated response to Gatland's comments regarding England's whitewash of Australia and Gatland saying that Australia weren't all that, obviously Wales got beat by Australia again last week so just a friendly dig at Gatland and his one dimensional Wales team.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 20, 2016, 06:46:17 PM
He also said they were complacent against Japan.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Exeter 77 on November 20, 2016, 07:30:20 PM
I didn't see any of the Ireland v All Blacks game but two Kiwis have been cited.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38045809



Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 21, 2016, 05:28:07 PM
I didn't see any of the Ireland v All Blacks game but two Kiwis have been cited.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38045809 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38045809)

Didn't watch this so I as waiting for some highlights before commenting.

however I haven't found any that cover them so full game it is:
- I won't embed it - EDIT: it appears I have no choice in the matter, ah well, that's new since the great blackout.

1st one is about 12:45 in and I think he'll get away with it.  It's clumsy but his left arm wraps and right shoulder makes contact with the head after.  To give him a ban they'd need to believe that contact is intentional and I'm not sure they can do that.

2nd one is tougher about 1:04:45, should've been red rather than yellow at the time for me.  It's dangerously high, is a professional foul (in that there's a try scoring chance if he doesn't make contact) and is a straight arm with no attempt to wrap it.  I suspect a 2-3 game ban for that one and a telling off for the ref and touch judge for only giving a yellow, nasty challenge.

Other comments - 2nd try is controversial, I'm not sure if he grounds it, I'm pretty shocked that the ref asks the TMO if he's certain and gets a yes in response, it's borderline at best. 3rd try should never have been allowed, the last pass/offload goes forward and from the shape of his body when he releases there's absolutely no chance of it going level/back.  Shocking decision to allow it for me.

Onto England, I think Launchbury is fucked with his citing, definite ban coming there I'm afraid, no excuses his foot/shin clearly makes contact with the head. 2-4 weeks I'd guess given he has a good reputation.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on November 21, 2016, 06:00:47 PM
Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 21, 2016, 06:42:34 PM
And there you go, 2 weeks for Launchbury, no shock at all. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38058098
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 21, 2016, 07:32:44 PM
Good timing for Kruis to come back.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: aev on November 22, 2016, 08:08:27 PM
Rokoduguni and Goode sent back to their clubs.

I thought they they had decent games.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nordenvillain on November 22, 2016, 09:41:49 PM
Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 22, 2016, 11:07:15 PM
Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.

Why not Saints?  They typically run at a profit and have numerous new youth players so the salary cap should not be a problem, plus the fact that Myler has been 'steady' for the past few seasons without ever looking top class.  From my perspective, albeit local, they are a bigger club too.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 22, 2016, 11:30:59 PM
You seem to have come round to Farrell a bit Paul, how come?

Missed this one.  Simply he's grown up.  He had a chip on his shoulder when he broke through which caused him to do stupid things and meant his all round game wasn't international standard but he got picked because of his kicking.  He's a far more rounded player now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 22, 2016, 11:35:29 PM
NZ citings have come back, no further action for Cane as it was judged an accident and 1game ban (which is effectively season ending) for fekitoa with a 'wrong card' slap on the wrist for the officials.  About as i suspected but i forgot to account for the end of the season for the ban.  Good to see them making good decisions like that.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Chico Hamilton III on November 23, 2016, 10:19:54 AM
I've got no interest in rugby at all. Don't understand the rules to start with because we never even played it at school but did I hear correctly the other day that the Fiji players were on £400 a man for the game against England? Is that right? the game must have grossed millions yet the players get nothing out of it? what happened there?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 23, 2016, 10:23:59 AM
I've got no interest in rugby at all. Don't understand the rules to start with because we never even played it at school but did I hear correctly the other day that the Fiji players were on £400 a man for the game against England? Is that right? the game must have grossed millions yet the players get nothing out of it? what happened there?

Probably not far off.  That's why so many players elect to play for other nations.  If every international currently playing who was born in Fiji played for them they'd have given us a much closer game.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 23, 2016, 10:28:56 AM
That's about right, the RFU paid a fee to Fiji as a goodwill gesture, they don't have to pay it, but it's pocket money really.  All of Fiji's costs are met by the IRB for a tour like this, hotels, food, air fares etc.  The disparity is really because the big teams rarely if ever return the favour and play in Fiji, England last played there in 1991.  England players earned £22k each allegedly. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on November 23, 2016, 05:44:57 PM
Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.

Why not Saints?  They typically run at a profit and have numerous new youth players so the salary cap should not be a problem, plus the fact that Myler has been 'steady' for the past few seasons without ever looking top class.  From my perspective, albeit local, they are a bigger club too.

Certainly bigger than Sale but bigger than Gloucester is debatable.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 23, 2016, 11:04:03 PM
Gloucester are willing to throw a few bob at a decent 10 this summer according to my man ITK there. Taking Ford off Bath would be nice.
Sorry CL, I think he's destined for the AJ Bell Stadium and Sale - New owners can at last get Sale up to approaching the salary cap for the 1st time in living memory. Bath won't let him go back to Leicester, so would agree it will come down to Glawster or Sharks.

Why not Saints?  They typically run at a profit and have numerous new youth players so the salary cap should not be a problem, plus the fact that Myler has been 'steady' for the past few seasons without ever looking top class.  From my perspective, albeit local, they are a bigger club too.

Certainly bigger than Sale but bigger than Gloucester is debatable.

On the last decade I'd say saints have pulled a fair way ahead of glaws, only really sarries and tigers compete with saints in that period.

Longer term you're right but I think there would be few current players who wouldn't pick saints on the balance of the squads.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Tony Daleys Shorts on November 24, 2016, 03:10:45 PM
Looking good for England at the moment, 12 wins on the bounce. Two winnable games coming up and back to back Grand Slams thus breaking NZ's recent record 18 wins on the trot on the process, easy!

Never quite that simple of course but we do look to have finally found a 9,10,12 combination that releases the back line and gets us looking like making breaks and scoring tries. The strength in depth of the front 8 is frightening, we have four world class locks for starters. Exciting times for English rugby.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 25, 2016, 09:16:51 PM
I'm not completely convinced by the 10 + 12 combination, unless it's sole purpose is to create for the back three.  Either Ford needs to learn to attack/break the line more often or Farrell needs to become more of a crash player.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 25, 2016, 09:21:37 PM
I was reading the comments on the BBC today and a few people were suggesting Daly as England's future fullback.
He certainly seems more of a 'head-up' player compared to Brown and can kick, however I've no idea what hr is like under the high ball.  I think he's got the potential to add a extra dimension to England's game, especially as it means Joseph can also be selected.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 25, 2016, 09:53:48 PM
I was reading the comments on the BBC today and a few people were suggesting Daly as England's future fullback.
He certainly seems more of a 'head-up' player compared to Brown and can kick, however I've no idea what hr is like under the high ball.  I think he's got the potential to add a extra dimension to England's game, especially as it means Joseph can also be selected.

Thoughts?

He came through as a full back and looked very solid under the high ball. I think it's definitely an option to look at him back there.  The only 'problem' I have with it is that I think Watson is better at full back than on the wing and the wing options we have are immense.  The thing is whatever team we pick in the outside backs we're going to be leaving some fantastic players in the stands (or back with their clubs), just like 2nd row.

I think people talking about the fullback options is good though, I've shared my opinion on Brown lots of times so I won't repeat it but in the last year I've seen more and more people spotting the same flaws I've seen in him since he broke through and I honestly think that 15 is now our weakest position based on the Elite squad.  The real issue is that there's no one obvious to bring in who plays the position week in week out.  Haley looks a decent prospect but he's about it and I'm not convinced he's of the standard needed.  For that reason I'm all for giving Daly a shot there but I doubt it'll happen before Italy now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 26, 2016, 03:03:17 PM
Not impressed with the ref here, by the law it's a red but to give nothing for the one against May a few minutes later is poor.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 26, 2016, 08:53:00 PM
Refereeing was poor today, very poor, no complaints about Daly's red, he lost control of the scrum and the 15 minutes of nonsense at the end of the first half was diabolical. I had ref link and some of the shit he was saying was beyond belief.

Robshaw was immense again and fully deserved MOTM today. Real shame for Billy and hopefully Brown can shake off the dead leg.

Bring on the shackle draggers.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 26, 2016, 08:57:15 PM
Great result in the end, think the ref was harsh to give Marler a yellow (I don't disagree with his thought process but an international match where a team have already had a 'letter of the law' red isn't the time to make a point), their guy is getting a VERY long ban, that's right up there with the worst stamps you'll ever see.  Back to Daly I don't think there was any malice in it, he just got himself in a bad position and panicked a bit, I hope that will see the ban limited to just the 1 game.  Watching back I still think the ref got it wrong not to give a yellow for the guy taking May in the air, it was the actions of May that stopped it from being just as bad as the Daly one, not the actions of their player.

Aside from that I thought the pack played superbly and JJ and May were excellent given we were a back short for 76minutes.  The defensive work deserves credit as well with 14 points coming when we had 13 vs 15 which would stretch any team.

Still, all said, It's shown another side of this England team.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 26, 2016, 10:03:06 PM
Agree, Paul. 
I suppose ref had no option with Daly red, the Argentine chaps misdemeanour was exactly the same but May managed to keep upright. Definitely yellow, could have had no complaint if it had been red, though.
Thought Robshaw was fantastic, again. New lease of life at 6
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 26, 2016, 11:49:40 PM
Robshaw was always a 6, that's why I used to get so frustrated at him playing at 7, we looked lopsided and I felt bad to be blaming him for it but I just couldn't understand why he, as captain, didn't have the guts to say he was playing in the wrong role.  Just to be clear because I lumped the pack into a single group, Robshaw was brilliant today and deserved the motm award (but a few other forwards pushed him hard, Wood, Kruis and Lawes in particular all put in fantastic shifts).  I find it quite amusing that for years we had a great front row but couldn't find a back row to compliment them and now all of a sudden then locks and back row have all shot past the front row options (although Mako is becoming a big player for us now that he's learning to scrum).  Cole is my real worry in the pack, he's been the weak link for the last year or so.  I think we really need 1-2 of Sinckler, Hill and Brookes to step up and take that place now.

Absolutely with the Daly red, as I said it's a letter of the law red and that particular rule is 1 of 2-3 that they're really clamping down on.  The others are neck rolls and stamping, basically anything targeting the head and neck, the rules and the recent update sent out to all registered refs and all clubs makes it very clear that this isn't to be tolerated at any level.  I'm all in favour, I've played 4 games that were suspended because of injuries and 3 of them were for exactly these type of incidents (2 broken necks, 1 from overly aggressive clearout work the other from a shoulder on head clash where the tackler went off his feet with no arms and a fractured skull from a stamp).  What I don't accept is that player lands on shoulder = red, player turns and manages to land on side = penalty only.  That makes a mockery of the rules and makes me think that players may, in high profile games, be seen to have done the wrong thing by protecting themselves.  The rule, and interpretation, needs to be more about the actions of the offender and not the landing position of the victim.  Watching the 2 back I'm convinced that the main difference between the red and the pen is that Johnny May is flexible enough to twist himself out of a bad landing and his team have ended up being 'punished' for it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on November 27, 2016, 06:36:09 AM
Robshaw even more so as England captain, nevermind that he's a player representing his country, would never say he was playing in the wrong role. I think it's hugely misguided to think any player ever would say anything other than they'd play wherever asked for their country and there is no such thing in that respect as playing in the wrong role. Quite simply, and this is backing up your oft banged-in point that he wasn't/isn't a 7 that he was been outstanding as a 6.

I agree (with my limited knowledge) that an upgrade on Cole is now needed and Jones is canny enough to have seen where he perceives weaknesses in his team to be. Good to see Sinckler take his chance yesterday in his brief cameo. He'll be putting pressure on Cole and although he's unlikely to start against Australia he'll probably get another 20 minute audition before the 6 Nations.

As for Daly - yes a red and I have a modicum of sympathy for the ref with the Argentinian player. Because of the way May landed it was easy for the ref to interpret tat the player either pulled out of the tackle or it simply wasn't dangerous and so by landing on his feet it was just a penalty. This is where my knowledge of the rules fall down - what is the letter of the law? If there is any margin of error then I can see why the ref erred on the side of caution so as to not sin bin a player because an English player was sent off.

I thought the neck roll one was definitely more dangerous but the pace the game is played at it is a lot harder to definitely say that it was deliberate, and even if not the position of the player's bodies going into the tackle and the speed they entered into the contact also has to be considered. I'm not saying the referee got it right yesterday but can appreciate the difficulty in getting it absolutely right and where inconsistencies lie.

As for the stamp? Well that twat should be able to book his holibobs to Patagonia for a very long time.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 28, 2016, 09:23:47 AM
Billy V out for 4 months, had a knee op yesterday and likely to miss all of the 6N.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on November 28, 2016, 10:14:00 AM
big miss. Huge. He has really epitomised the new England probably more than anyone.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 28, 2016, 10:45:11 AM
Phenomenal player who will be hugely missed.  It does mean we get to see Hughes in his natural position though and his offloading game could come in useful against the better sides.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 28, 2016, 02:02:01 PM
A few observations from the game:

Hartley looks a decent captain.  The gesture when Daly was sent off was classy and the huddle behind the posts when Argentina scored also showed decent leadership.

Sinkler impressed me.  Can't comment on his scrummaging but looked mobile and had good awareness in the loose.

JJ - Really impressed.  Previously his attacking play has stood out, whereas on Saturday his defence and ability to compete for the ball immediately after a tackle probably saved England as it slowed the ball enough that the extra man was not as obvious.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 28, 2016, 02:47:52 PM
JJ has always been a very strong defender but it's easily overlooked when you see him breeze past 3-4 players.  Greenwood and Guscott both called him out as the most promising young centre we had (ahead of Manu) a few years back when he was breaking through at Irish and both said that his defensive qualities were superb and separated him from most young centres who have to learn that side of the game.

Sinckler is a tough one for me, his technique in the scrum is dreadful (but better than a few years ago when he honestly didn't know what he was doing) and he's got a very suspect temprament but if he can contain the latter and work on the former he has the physicality, pace and stamina of a back row.  I think Hill is a better all round prospect though and I suspect longer term Hill will start games and Sinckler will finish them.

Hartley is a fantastic captain, he showed that at Saints and he was genuinely the stand out choice when Jones came in.  The worry (although that's not the right word) is that George and Taylor are improving very quickly and once they get the consistency at the lineout and fix the small technical errors they have in the scrum their play in the open will elevate them above him.  When the time comes it will be interesting to see how it's handled.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 28, 2016, 04:29:03 PM
3 week ban for Daly, they started with 6 and then reduced it based on record, etc.  6 weeks for that would've been a terrible over-reaction, even 3 is pretty heavy handed.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on November 28, 2016, 06:18:20 PM
Any danger of Ben Morgan coming back in next week? He had a huge game carrying for Gloucester yesterday.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on November 28, 2016, 07:30:07 PM
It's going to be a massive test this weekend with all our players missing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 28, 2016, 08:10:35 PM
Any danger of Ben Morgan coming back in next week? He had a huge game carrying for Gloucester yesterday.

Ben Morgan is a must.
Great n.o 8 for me.
Don't know a lot about Nathan Hughes, but he must be pretty decent to keep Morgan out
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 28, 2016, 09:13:04 PM
I really like Morgan but he is missing half a yard of pace which makes a big difference at the top level.

Hughes is a fantastic player, his ofloading game is superb but the best bit, for me, is his work in disrupting mauls, he just seems to slip through and get hands on the ball carrier with ease, and does it going straight through the middle, it's a very rare skill.

This sums him up pretty well -



Specifically watch how often he has the ball in 1 hand when he's running so he can keep it away from contact and keep it alive.  The Wade try towards the end of the clip is the best example, that's what I mean by his offloading game.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on November 28, 2016, 10:03:30 PM
It's going to be a massive test this weekend with all our players missing.

They're not all missing ;)
But yes Itoje, Haskell, Billy V, Daly it's  going to be a big ask and a close one at that but I think England will shade it if we can keep the intensity and slow the convicts down at the breakdown.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on November 29, 2016, 12:47:25 PM
I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on November 29, 2016, 06:26:50 PM
I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.

There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion.  It was phenomenal. 

Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them.  Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on November 29, 2016, 08:48:12 PM
I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.

There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion.  It was phenomenal. 

Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them.  Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.

This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on November 30, 2016, 10:10:39 AM
I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.

There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion.  It was phenomenal. 

Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them.  Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.

This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?

In all honesty I'd like us to keep working on the set piece play for both of them and try to get them into the side at 4 and 5 with Robshaw, Hughes and Billy as the back row.  Add Mako, Sinckler and George and you've got the most mobile pack the game has ever seen and we'd be able to defend more like a league team, commit very few, keep the width but pounce when there's a chance for a turnover.  It only works if they can hold their own in the scrum though.  In the line out Lawes has become and excellent organiser and Itoje has a great leap on him.1

We can be the best team in the world if we focus on fitness and mobility, that's where the professionalism of our players and our clubs stands us ahead of any other country in the world.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 01, 2016, 11:49:46 AM
Hughes & Yarde in the starting 15 for Saturday, have to say I like the look of that side to face the shackle draggers.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nordenvillain on December 01, 2016, 01:33:52 PM
I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.

There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion.  It was phenomenal. 

Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them.  Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.

This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?

In all honesty I'd like us to keep working on the set piece play for both of them and try to get them into the side at 4 and 5 with Robshaw, Hughes and Billy as the back row.  Add Mako, Sinckler and George and you've got the most mobile pack the game has ever seen and we'd be able to defend more like a league team, commit very few, keep the width but pounce when there's a chance for a turnover.  It only works if they can hold their own in the scrum though.  In the line out Lawes has become and excellent organiser and Itoje has a great leap on him.1

We can be the best team in the world if we focus on fitness and mobility, that's where the professionalism of our players and our clubs stands us ahead of any other country in the world.
Paul e,

Whilst I understand your reasons for putting Lawes in as number 5, do you think that he should start in front of a fully fit George Kruis ? He was running the line out calls in last season's 6N & the Australian tour and has the huge advantage of playing his club rugby with Itoje. I think that England are blessed with probably the best current crop of second rows in international rugby and maybe even the best lot that England have ever had. Far more, like other people have said, I think England need replacements / other options for Mike Brown and Dan Cole. I see that Alex Goode once again dropped the first high ball shown by ITV in their Premiership highlights of the Saracens v Gloucester game last weekend ! With my Sale hat on, I think that Mike Haley could be an option for the 15 shirt, but probably not for another 12 months. He had an outstanding tour with the Saxons to South Africa during the summer before he got injured. I think that there are a number of young props that could take Cole's [place in the near future.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 01, 2016, 02:14:32 PM
I think Lawes has been playing well enough to cover for the loss (big loss as it is). Throw in Wood and the options that we have at wing (whatever happened to Wade?) and I think those positions will be covered. But Billy V will be a huge loss. Chance for someone though.

There was a spell on saturday where Argentina went through 4 or 5 phases of tackle/ruck/drive/tackle and Lawes was the tackler on each occasion.  It was phenomenal. 

Itoje is better with the ball but defensively and set pieces I don't think there's much between them.  Oh, Itoje wins when it comes to turnovers too.

This could be why Itoje could move to back row in some capacity.
Imagine him steaming at the opposition 10 from open side?

In all honesty I'd like us to keep working on the set piece play for both of them and try to get them into the side at 4 and 5 with Robshaw, Hughes and Billy as the back row.  Add Mako, Sinckler and George and you've got the most mobile pack the game has ever seen and we'd be able to defend more like a league team, commit very few, keep the width but pounce when there's a chance for a turnover.  It only works if they can hold their own in the scrum though.  In the line out Lawes has become and excellent organiser and Itoje has a great leap on him.1

We can be the best team in the world if we focus on fitness and mobility, that's where the professionalism of our players and our clubs stands us ahead of any other country in the world.
Paul e,

Whilst I understand your reasons for putting Lawes in as number 5, do you think that he should start in front of a fully fit George Kruis ? He was running the line out calls in last season's 6N & the Australian tour and has the huge advantage of playing his club rugby with Itoje. I think that England are blessed with probably the best current crop of second rows in international rugby and maybe even the best lot that England have ever had. Far more, like other people have said, I think England need replacements / other options for Mike Brown and Dan Cole. I see that Alex Goode once again dropped the first high ball shown by ITV in their Premiership highlights of the Saracens v Gloucester game last weekend ! With my Sale hat on, I think that Mike Haley could be an option for the 15 shirt, but probably not for another 12 months. He had an outstanding tour with the Saxons to South Africa during the summer before he got injured. I think that there are a number of young props that could take Cole's [place in the near future.

I think Launchbury and Kruis are exceptional locks but I think Itoje and Lawes are as well and they could both easily play back row at international level because they're so mobile.  It's that extra mobility and pace that I find attractive.  being more pragmatic in truth I'd probably start one of the former for the extra weight in the scrum and assurance at the line out and then replace them after 50-55 with the running power and mobility Lawes.  Don't forget though that Lawes has been the main line out caller (with Hartley) for Saints for a couple of years so his link up shouldn't be dismissed.

Fundamentally Itoje and 1 from 3 is the main aim and results in a world class pairing whatever you choose, I'd honestly back our locks as the best set ever in the sport, and they've all got at least 2 more world cups in them if they avoid major injuries.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 01, 2016, 02:32:29 PM
The squad for the aussie game was released earlier - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38167545

M Brown (Harlequins); M Yarde (Harlequins), J Joseph (Bath), O Farrell (Saracens), J May (Gloucester); G Ford (Bath), B Youngs (Leicester)

M Vunipola (Saracens), D Hartley (Northampton, capt), D Cole (Leicester), C Lawes (Northampton), G Kruis (Saracens), C Robshaw (Harlequins), T Wood (Northampton), N Hughes (Wasps).

Replacements: J George (Saracens), J Marler (Harlequins), K Sinckler (Harlequins), C Ewels (Bath), T Harrison (Northampton), D Care (Harlequins), B Te'o (Worcester), H Slade (Exeter).

Now I like Yarde more than most people but how the fuck is he ahead of Roko?  Other than that it's about the best we can do right now and I reckon there's enough there to see them off and record win number 14 but we really need to have the intensity right from the start and to not ease off.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: OzVilla on December 03, 2016, 10:23:23 AM
Aussies really want this one you can tell. They've had a bit of a shocker sporting wise lately so they need this.

Plus im on a Christmas boozy boat trip tomorrow with a load a rugby supporting Aussies. One whose particularly gobby.

Is it too much to ask for an England/Villa double?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on December 03, 2016, 10:41:43 AM
Aussies really want this one you can tell. They've had a bit of a shocker sporting wise lately so they need this.

Plus im on a Christmas boozy boat trip tomorrow with a load a rugby supporting Aussies. One whose particularly gobby.

Is it too much to ask for an England/Villa double?

Got to be worth a small flutter on that double
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 03, 2016, 02:51:19 PM
This is the worst 15 minutes I've seen.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: dave shelley on December 03, 2016, 03:07:31 PM
Better now.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 03, 2016, 03:15:55 PM
Absolutely awful. No intensity, no skill, just nothing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 03, 2016, 03:22:32 PM
Haven't seen much but not playing great so far. However only 3 down after being battered for a half is fine for me and we have the bigger impact from the bench so I'd still make favourites unless they can stretch it to a 10+ lead early 2nd half.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 03, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
Only positive is the score. Horribly meak display so far.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 03, 2016, 03:45:07 PM
This is much much better. Intensity is up.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 03, 2016, 04:14:31 PM
Another win.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 03, 2016, 04:25:12 PM
Again only caught bits but Hughes seemed to have a good 2nd half and our quality blew them away in the end.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 03, 2016, 05:47:07 PM
In the second half we were superb. Youngs was magnificent.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 03, 2016, 07:32:19 PM
Shit for 15 minutes and then totally outclassed the convicts.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 04, 2016, 08:23:47 AM
Hughes had a good game and we barely missed Vunipola.  Clearly different players though as Hughes is less direct and would often drift sideways and ran out of pitch, which created some issues.  Hughes is quicker though and I'd imagine covers more of the pitch.

The simple fact that we were missing Vunipola, Haskell and Itoje from the forwards and matched them is pretty incredible.
Add Watson and Daly (Tuilagi possibly) from the backs and there another 10-15 points potentially missing.

Finally, the best bit, is that most of stand out performances are coming from the younger players and often with replacements coming through.  They will be a better team by the time the world cup comes around.   
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 04, 2016, 09:35:53 AM
For the second week running I thought Robshaw could have been MOTM, Youngs was probably the right choice though his dummy outside that opened the line up for his try was sublime. 
Hooper and Pocock went awol in the second half and Australia looked out on their feet after 50 minutes. 
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on December 04, 2016, 09:43:39 AM
Hughes had a good game and we barely missed Vunipola.  Clearly different players though as Hughes is less direct and would often drift sideways and ran out of pitch, which created some issues.  Hughes is quicker though and I'd imagine covers more of the pitch.

The simple fact that we were missing Vunipola, Haskell and Itoje from the forwards and matched them is pretty incredible.
Add Watson and Daly (Tuilagi possibly) from the backs and there another 10-15 points potentially missing.

Finally, the best bit, is that most of stand out performances are coming from the younger players and often with replacements coming through.  They will be a better team by the time the world cup comes around.

Agree with that summary, Dante.
Although, I find it hard to see where Tuilagi could fit in to the way we're playing at the moment.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 04, 2016, 12:10:44 PM
Hughes had a good game and we barely missed Vunipola.  Clearly different players though as Hughes is less direct and would often drift sideways and ran out of pitch, which created some issues.  Hughes is quicker though and I'd imagine covers more of the pitch.

The simple fact that we were missing Vunipola, Haskell and Itoje from the forwards and matched them is pretty incredible.
Add Watson and Daly (Tuilagi possibly) from the backs and there another 10-15 points potentially missing.

Finally, the best bit, is that most of stand out performances are coming from the younger players and often with replacements coming through.  They will be a better team by the time the world cup comes around.

Agree with that summary, Dante.
Although, I find it hard to see where Tuilagi could fit in to the way we're playing at the moment.

I've thought that about manu for a while, i think I've been more critical of him than most because I've always been concerned that he makes us 1 dimensional.  I think I've likened him to Bent before, good player but the better he plays the weaker the rest of the team looks.  Given the choice I'd honestly have JJ and Daly ahead of him at 13 and he's even further back at 12.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 04, 2016, 04:10:56 PM
Great line from one of the Sunday papers today.

'Ben Youngs sells more dummies than Mothercare'
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on December 07, 2016, 05:13:49 AM
The best thing you could say about the team is that most people no longer talk about Tuilagi and when he's due to return.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on December 07, 2016, 04:04:42 PM
Started watching the French Super 14 on Sky Mix, it's easy to see why the French national team are struggling. The last game I saw was Toulon v Bordeaux, I think you'd have had a job sorting a French XV from the two teams.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 07, 2016, 05:19:51 PM
Started watching the French Super 14 on Sky Mix, it's easy to see why the French national team are struggling. The last game I saw was Toulon v Bordeaux, I think you'd have had a job sorting a French XV from the two teams.

That's 1 of 2 problems with the french league.  The other is the obsession with being massive.  For years French backs had a reputation of being immensely talented but not liking the rough stuff and they seem to have taken it to heart.  It's at the point where if you're level with a french side with 10 to go you know that gaps will appear because they're all so big they struggle to get around the park.  In their domestic game it means the play is MUCH slower than any other major league in the north or south.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 07, 2016, 05:22:25 PM
Just to put it out there, Gatland, Farrell, Howley and Borthwick is a fucking ridiculous coaching team.  How Farrell is anywhere near a backs coach job after the abomination he was involved in at the world cup is beyond me.  The only one of the 4 who deserves the job is Borthwick.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 07, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
Just to put it out there, Gatland, Farrell, Howley and Borthwick is a fucking ridiculous coaching team.  How Farrell is anywhere near a backs coach job after the abomination he was involved in at the world cup is beyond me.  The only one of the 4 who deserves the job is Borthwick.

Amen to that.  Howley has been awful as well.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on December 08, 2016, 07:03:51 AM
I don't see any hope for the Lions. They needed fresh ideas to take on the All Blacks. Gatland's success in the previous tour should be tempered by the fact that Australia were rubbish. Also the style he played would fail against the All Blacks.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on December 08, 2016, 01:11:43 PM
I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.

I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 08, 2016, 01:49:28 PM
I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.

I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.

Isn't Howley interim coach at Wales, standing in whilst Gatland coaches the Lions.  Bizarre.
I also read the Fiji 7s coach was being approached.  I actually quite like the idea of that as long as he's not solely responsible for any key strategies.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 08, 2016, 02:01:41 PM
I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.

I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.

Isn't Howley interim coach at Wales, standing in whilst Gatland coaches the Lions.  Bizarre.
I also read the Fiji 7s coach was being approached.  I actually quite like the idea of that as long as he's not solely responsible for any key strategies.

Currently that's Gareth Baber not sure he's who you mean, maybe you mean their former 7s coach Ben Ryan?  Ben was coach at Newbury, my local team and led them to National Divison 1 playing some amazing rugby on the way, he was poached by England to head up 7s and also worked with the Saxons before leading Fiji to Olympic gold in Rio.  He's out of a job right now so maybe he would have been a good choice for The Lions.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on December 08, 2016, 04:30:25 PM
I'd give Gatland the benefit of the doubt.
Borthwick, certainly.
The other two, unbelievable.

I'm just pleased Eddie wasn't asked. He can concentrate on England.

Isn't Howley interim coach at Wales, standing in whilst Gatland coaches the Lions.  Bizarre.
I also read the Fiji 7s coach was being approached.  I actually quite like the idea of that as long as he's not solely responsible for any key strategies.

Currently that's Gareth Baber not sure he's who you mean, maybe you mean their former 7s coach Ben Ryan?  Ben was coach at Newbury, my local team and led them to National Divison 1 playing some amazing rugby on the way, he was poached by England to head up 7s and also worked with the Saxons before leading Fiji to Olympic gold in Rio.  He's out of a job right now so maybe he would have been a good choice for The Lions.

Ben Ryan is a superb coach, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the reason Saints were happy to part with King.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on December 09, 2016, 12:20:24 AM
I was referring to Fiji's Olympic 7s coach, so presumably Ben Ryan.
That said, no idea where I read it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on January 09, 2017, 12:43:56 PM
Robshaw out of the 6N.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38559130
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 09, 2017, 01:12:31 PM
Robshaw out of the 6N.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38559130

No surprise, looked nasty when he did it.  I suspect that's either Wood in at 6 or Itoje moving back there.  I'm not sure it's that big a blow, 6 is a position where we have lots of depth.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cdbullyweefan on January 09, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
They should have the Six Nations in the Summer in non-World Cup/Euros years. I doubt I'll be able to watch many of Scotland's games due to Villa.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 09, 2017, 02:29:08 PM
They should have the Six Nations in the Summer in non-World Cup/Euros years. I doubt I'll be able to watch many of Scotland's games due to Villa.

Won't happen, they like their 3 international windows (autumn internationals, late winter 6N and summer tours) and I can't see it ever changing.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on January 09, 2017, 06:25:19 PM
Forlorn hope that the Sweaties don't pick Matt Scott again for the 6 nations.....
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 11, 2017, 02:30:30 PM
Robshaw out of the 6N.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38559130

No surprise, looked nasty when he did it.  I suspect that's either Wood in at 6 or Itoje moving back there.  I'm not sure it's that big a blow, 6 is a position where we have lots of depth.

Moving on from this we now have a real problem in the Front Row with Mako and Marler both out
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on January 11, 2017, 05:33:36 PM
This is when fringe players need to step up to the plate, or, we discover a couple of gems
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on January 11, 2017, 06:20:40 PM
What is the likely starting front row?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on January 11, 2017, 06:32:15 PM
What is the likely starting front row?

I'd have thought Matt Mullen, Dan Cole & Jamie George
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on January 11, 2017, 06:42:23 PM
It isn't dreadful. Just not as good as it could be. Those further back in the pack should make the difference. I am counting on a big tournament for Hughes as a new guy.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 11, 2017, 08:19:24 PM
What is the likely starting front row?

I'd have thought Matt Mullen, Dan Cole & Jamie George

Hartley will start if he proves himself fit.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Dante Lavelli on January 15, 2017, 09:11:08 PM
Hartley will start if fit, Jones has pretty much said as much.  The additional injuries will probably make him an even more attractive option as his experience could be crucial.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on January 15, 2017, 10:03:39 PM
What is the likely starting front row?

I'd have thought Matt Mullen, Dan Cole & Jamie George

Hartley will start if he proves himself fit.

And so he should, paul.
My front 3 were if he wasn't, though.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 16, 2017, 12:10:50 AM
Fingers crossed that he sees the light and brings Robson in, he's been the best 9 in Europe for at least 12months, he's just as dangerous around the fringes as Youngs (as his excellent try this weekend showcased) but brings far better passing and kicking skills.  He also has a great understanding with Hughes who will obviously come in at 8 with Billy V out.  Good to see Launchbury play, gives us 3 top drawer locks to pick from and with Wood in exceptional form we're looking good at 6.  It will be interesting to see what he does at 7, Harrison is playing well again and Jones likes him but he hasn't really foudn his feet at international level yet.  Maybe a 6N campaign is what he needs right now.  either way we're going into a defence of our 6N title with an entirely new back row because of injuries and I don't think we're significantly weaker, that's where our genuine depth makes such a big difference.  Will be interesting to see how Mullan and Genge get on at loosehead as well, 2 more who wouldn't have expected to be in the 23 if everyone was fit, Genge in particular looks like he could be a bit special off the bench, him, Sinckler/Hill and George from the bench for the last 20 weakens our set piece but all of them would've been back row players a decade ago with their mobility and technique.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on January 16, 2017, 07:25:14 AM
Is Itoje back yet?
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 16, 2017, 11:53:03 AM
He played at the weekend, think he's about 3-4 games in now so unless he picks something up he'll be fit to start.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on January 26, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.

Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm.  Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.

One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.

Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.

Final table..........

England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 26, 2017, 01:21:53 PM
I honestly don't know what Scotland, Wales and French teams will turn up so I wouldn't dare call positions for them but I agree that it looks like England or Ireland for the title.  I'd go with England purely because we have so much impact from the bench that it's a trump card in close games and I can't see any of the teams having enough to build a big lead against us.

I have no idea what to think about Italy, every time they take a step forward and look like they really belong in the tournament they fall back again but I suspect you're right that they'll be bottom again.

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on January 26, 2017, 05:18:50 PM
Wales will be like SHA are with us, don't care about the other games but all out again England  ;)
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on January 26, 2017, 05:24:53 PM
6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.

Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm.  Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.

One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.

Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.

Final table..........

England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy

France 3rd??
I think Scotland could be the surprise team. Ireland, Wales and Italy at home
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on January 26, 2017, 06:02:27 PM
We will win it. We have too much strength in depth for the others.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on January 26, 2017, 08:48:07 PM
6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.

Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm.  Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.

One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.

Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.

Final table..........

England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy

France 3rd??
I think Scotland could be the surprise team. Ireland, Wales and Italy at home

You seriously expect me to put Wales and Scotland above them?  They're improving, if they turn up they're always a force.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on January 26, 2017, 11:34:34 PM
As I say, there is, for me, a whisker between the 3 of them, I wouldn't bet on anything in this one, I think the irish are strong but they could get pulled into that mid-table mess as well because they don't have great depth in some positions, an injury or 2 would really hurt them.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on January 27, 2017, 05:05:25 AM
I would be staggered if England won given the injuries to key players. If we did I think the All Blacks would sit up and notice given the strength in depth that we would be demonstrating.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on January 27, 2017, 07:39:11 AM
6 Nations starts a week Saturday with Scotland v Ireland, England v France and on Sunday Italy face Wales.

Very hard to call an overall winner, heart says England but head says Ireland obviously it could and should all come down to the final weekend with England facing the Irish in Dublin at 5pm.  Can't see any farther than Italy for the wooden spoon.

One upset that looks quite plausible is on opening weekend where Scotland must have a fair chance to put one over the Irish at home, should be a great clash to start the competition.

Incidentally, plans are afoot to turn the 6N into a 5 week competition at the behest of Premiership clubs, could be a double edged sword I suppose with the additional stress, pressure & injury likelihood increasing in a reduced timeframe.

Final table..........

England
Ireland
France
Scotland
Wales
Italy

France 3rd??
I think Scotland could be the surprise team. Ireland, Wales and Italy at home

You seriously expect me to put Wales and Scotland above them?  They're improving, if they turn up they're always a force.

I think Scotland certainly could, and as Paul says there's not a lot between the 3 of them.
France do have Scotland and Wales at home which might be  key decider.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 04, 2017, 01:53:38 PM
England U20s absolutely smashed France today 59-17

The conveyer belt just keeps running.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on February 04, 2017, 02:44:49 PM
Jocks winning but their scrum is crap.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on February 04, 2017, 03:00:38 PM
This will be knocking the irish
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Villan For Life on February 04, 2017, 03:12:48 PM
Some poor defending at times from the Irish but they held on through sustained pressure from the sweats just before half time. A great opening half.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on February 04, 2017, 03:47:33 PM
Almost brilliant from Carney
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 04, 2017, 04:16:31 PM
Great result for the jocks.  What's interesting is that they've taken Farrell as coach and they have the same defensive weaknesses out wide that England had in the world cup. I don't understand how he hasn't been found out.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 05:15:09 PM
Not a great start.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 05:21:00 PM
Too many stupid pens.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Proposition Joe on February 04, 2017, 05:31:33 PM
Hmm France are going to win this.  Looks like they're finally waking up from their decade-long slumber.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 05:44:57 PM
Poor and really complacent half.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 05:54:58 PM
They're much sharper and more intense.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 06:10:02 PM
No accuracy at the moment.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 06:42:46 PM
Got away with that. Really poor performance and Itoje was a million times better once he moved back to the second row.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 04, 2017, 09:49:22 PM
Just home from Twickenham, probably as bad as Lancaster's last throes in terms of not having any ideas.
Referee didn't help, he had a very poor first 30 minutes.
Haskell had a huge impact, Ford kicked possession away far too much and our lineout looked very shaky to start with. That said the French had one opportunity in the second half and they took it, we cut out the penalties and probably should have come away with at least another 10 points, I haven't seen possession and territory stats for the second half but it certainly felt like we were in their half a good while. The rolling maul also clicked in the second half, I think we'll do ok next week against the sheep botherers.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 04, 2017, 10:00:34 PM
Itoje has to play in the second row, his influence on the game noticeably grew once he moved there.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 04, 2017, 11:23:22 PM
I think there are a few key things from that.

Itoje isn't a back row.
The May yellow was very harsh.
Their big prop will, in my opinion, be cited for leading with his elbow on Hughes.

I missed most of the 2nd half taking the kids to a party but I'm disappointed that we didn't push on and dominate it, i think we'd done a good job handling their physicality and our mobility really should've been enough to run awat from then later on.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: PaulWinch again on February 05, 2017, 12:41:17 AM
It was one of those days today. Nothing came off and it was really disjointed, and France played well. Itoje just starts in the second row and that debate should be ended. Excellent cameos from Haskell and Te'oo, they won the game.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: taylorsworkrate on February 05, 2017, 01:57:17 AM
Really poor performance. Shockingly bad in the 1st half. France played with far more intensity and seemed more motivated. Got out of jail. Can't see us playing that bad again
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on February 05, 2017, 12:10:22 PM
Not great.
Cant blame the ref, but, he did make 3 or 4 big errors.
The one where he called the ball out, then gave a penalty when Wood dropped on it. Maybe I missed something there?
Yes, May's yellow was harsh,but, the legs came up.
The French yellow at the end was a red, for me.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: peter w on February 05, 2017, 03:05:08 PM
The May certainly was harsh - he said it was out and then said Wood couldn't drop on a ball as it emerged from the ruck (or was it maul I can't remember). It was a fine line but as the referee had said it was out it couldn't also be said to be emerging from the maul. Very poor. I agree that the yellow was harsh - yes the leg came up but that was as the French player was trying to twist out of the tackle and he tried to take a forward step. This is one of those where slow motion should have helped the referee and show that it wasn't a yellow but a good tackle that the French players side and forward motion resulted in the leg going in the air as May had already committed to the tackle.

Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 06, 2017, 01:53:30 PM
The one where he called the ball out, then gave a penalty when Wood dropped on it. Maybe I missed something there?

The only possible cause I can imagine for the penalty is that Wood was already in motion toward the ball as it emerged from the ruck and the referee called the ball out. Basically he jumped the gun.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2017, 02:04:06 PM
The one where he called the ball out, then gave a penalty when Wood dropped on it. Maybe I missed something there?

The only possible cause I can imagine for the penalty is that Wood was already in motion toward the ball as it emerged from the ruck and the referee called the ball out. Basically he jumped the gun.

There's no way to justify that decision, it was just straight up wrong.  There is no concept of 'emerging' it's in or out and you're onside or you're not.  If anyone was offside or the ball wasn't out then Hughes gets penalised but the ref waved him on and told him the ball was available.  There is no rule ever which leads to the ball then being back 'in' and unavailable for Wood to dive on it, especially given the fact that the ref was fairly clear that him going off his feet was the problem.  The ref just got confused and blew up and then didn't have the balls to admit he'd made a mistake, it's really that simple.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 06, 2017, 03:27:58 PM
(e)A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Like I said that's the only reason I can think of to justify the unjustifiable!
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2017, 03:39:47 PM
(e)A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Like I said that's the only reason I can think of to justify the unjustifiable!

That rule is all about the ball being in the ruck and a player falling over it to stop it coming out (it's the rule that Richie McCaw was allowed to ignore for his entire career) and is normally referred to as players going off their feet at the ruck.  The ball is never in an 'emerging' state it's in until it's out and that rule, and any others relating to it (such as not releasing or interfering with the scrumhalf) exist to punish teams for not allowing the ball to come out and cannot be applied once the ref has called the ball as out.

I do get what you're saying but it makes no sense, I honestly can't think of any reason why he'd blow up when he did and the correct thing should've been to give England a scrum and apologise for interrupting play but for whatever reason he panicked and made up a rule that doesn't exist to justify it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: Jon Crofts on February 06, 2017, 04:20:23 PM
He never explained it either, we had the Ref Link and never heard his interpretation or explanation.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2017, 04:28:42 PM
I think he probably realised that there was no way to explain it that wouldn't have just dug him deeper.

I've spoken to a fair few people in the game yesterday and today and I'm yet to find anyone who could offer any explanation (let alone justification) for the decision.  The only crumb of comfort I can find is that they missed the kick so it had no effect on the scoreboard, if we'd lost by 3 or less I think things could've been very ugly.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on February 06, 2017, 06:11:34 PM
He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.

Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.

What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.

I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: paul_e on February 06, 2017, 08:43:19 PM
He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.

Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.

What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.

I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.

That's the one I was most angry with, given the new regs around head injuries I just can't work out why no one mentioned it.
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: nigel on February 06, 2017, 10:03:27 PM
He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a house leading with his elbow at Hughes head.

Shite performance from England who tried too hard to force things in the first half on their ball and didn't get down and dirty with the French first half when they had it.

What is clear is that, regardless of our injury situation, we have the strength in depth to empty the bench against anyone in this tournament and win the match.

I felt for Johnny May as well. If the frog hadn't flung himself forward to try to break the tackle then his leg wouldn't have gone in the air and nor would he have landed as he did.

That's the one I was most angry with, given the new regs around head injuries I just can't work out why no one mentioned it.

Surprised he hasn't been sited yet
Title: Re: International Rugby
Post by: cheltenhamlion on February 07, 2017, 05:18:46 PM
He missed some very clearly forward passes as well notwithstanding the prop the size of a hou