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[Caiphus]

Well make sure you bring your big coat.

I sweat like a dancing mule over here; I look forward to any excuse to drag out the thermal underwear...

[dave.woodhall]

Makes me think about what might have happened if Bosnich's first spell at United was a success.  I would never have become a Villa fan for one and the more I learn about the history of Villa, the more I am impressed.  With my degree almost finished, I hope to be joining you in the terraces in the not too distant future so I can really feel a part of it.

In the meantime, here's something you can feel part of already. www.heroespublishing.co.uk/Shop/Fanzine_Subscription.html

[LeeB]

Makes me think about what might have happened if Bosnich's first spell at United was a success.  I would never have become a Villa fan for one and the more I learn about the history of Villa, the more I am impressed.  With my degree almost finished, I hope to be joining you in the terraces in the not too distant future so I can really feel a part of it.

In the meantime, here's something you can feel part of already. www.heroespublishing.co.uk/Shop/Fanzine_Subscription.html

Never misses a trick, the socialist mirror of Rupert Murdoch.

[Percy McCarthy]

Makes me think about what might have happened if Bosnich's first spell at United was a success.  I would never have become a Villa fan for one and the more I learn about the history of Villa, the more I am impressed.  With my degree almost finished, I hope to be joining you in the terraces in the not too distant future so I can really feel a part of it.

In the meantime, here's something you can feel part of already. www.heroespublishing.co.uk/Shop/Fanzine_Subscription.html

Never misses a trick, the socialist mirror of Rupert Murdoch.

Robert Maxwell?

He'd better not be playing fast and loose with my pension fund.

[LeeB]

Makes me think about what might have happened if Bosnich's first spell at United was a success.  I would never have become a Villa fan for one and the more I learn about the history of Villa, the more I am impressed.  With my degree almost finished, I hope to be joining you in the terraces in the not too distant future so I can really feel a part of it.

In the meantime, here's something you can feel part of already. www.heroespublishing.co.uk/Shop/Fanzine_Subscription.html

Never misses a trick, the socialist mirror of Rupert Murdoch.

Robert Maxwell?

He'd better not be playing fast and loose with my pension fund.

He does look a bit like him now you mention it. Never did find that body either.....

[PeterWithe]

Do you remember before the 03/03/03 game where there were fabricated stories about the Villa recruiting far right loons to help bash in the Noses? 

Didn't the Mail or Mercury also run a story that the Villa lot were also going to wear Blonde wigs to a derby in a 'Tracey Andrews' tribute. Gullible or what.

[basavfc]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

I became a biggie at Hillsborough though, when the fences erected to keep hooligans caged in were directly responsible for the deaths of many of the 96 who died, plus the attitude of the authorities of "Well they are just football fans, hooligan scum to a man" was very evident in the way they reacted both before, during and after the disaster.
 I'm not saying that people wanting to fight other football fans was solely responsible at all, and certainly it had nothing directly to do with what happened on the day, but it was a very big mitigating factor in the scale of it.

Just to put you and this record straight.
It has since been proven after 24 years of perseverance from the Justice for the 96 campaign that the fences were not DIRECTLY responsible for the deaths of many of the INNOCENT fans, it was actually the police, ambulance service , the FA and government of the time that WERE responsible.

[peter w]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

I became a biggie at Hillsborough though, when the fences erected to keep hooligans caged in were directly responsible for the deaths of many of the 96 who died, plus the attitude of the authorities of "Well they are just football fans, hooligan scum to a man" was very evident in the way they reacted both before, during and after the disaster.
 I'm not saying that people wanting to fight other football fans was solely responsible at all, and certainly it had nothing directly to do with what happened on the day, but it was a very big mitigating factor in the scale of it.

Just to put you and this record straight.
It has since been proven after 24 years of perseverance from the Justice for the 96 campaign that the fences were not DIRECTLY responsible for the deaths of many of the INNOCENT fans, it was actually the police, ambulance service , the FA and government of the time that WERE responsible.

That's not the point being made. Just about everyone here agrees with the Hillsborough findings. The point is that without that previous hooligan element the fences wouldn't have been there. Its what those that choose to fight have as a possible legacy.

[basavfc]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

I became a biggie at Hillsborough though, when the fences erected to keep hooligans caged in were directly responsible for the deaths of many of the 96 who died, plus the attitude of the authorities of "Well they are just football fans, hooligan scum to a man" was very evident in the way they reacted both before, during and after the disaster.
 I'm not saying that people wanting to fight other football fans was solely responsible at all, and certainly it had nothing directly to do with what happened on the day, but it was a very big mitigating factor in the scale of it.

Just to put you and this record straight.
It has since been proven after 24 years of perseverance from the Justice for the 96 campaign that the fences were not DIRECTLY responsible for the deaths of many of the INNOCENT fans, it was actually the police, ambulance service , the FA and government of the time that WERE responsible.

That's not the point being made. Just about everyone here agrees with the Hillsborough findings. The point is that without that previous hooligan element the fences wouldn't have been there. Its what those that choose to fight have as a possible legacy.

"fences erected to keep hooligans caged in were directly responsible for the deaths of many of the 96"
NO THEY WERE NOT. FACT
I/We know why fences were rightly or wrongly erected, but at Hillsboro they were not directly responsible for any deaths  the authorities WERE. FACT

[Dave Cooper please]

I don't think it is a sign of civilisation coming to an end, no, and I'd never suggest it was. I don't think anyone would, for that matter.

In terms of excuses or mitigating factors, though, that's pretty much as limp as it gets.

Again, what excuse? All I'm saying is, it's no biggie.

I became a biggie at Hillsborough though, when the fences erected to keep hooligans caged in were directly responsible for the deaths of many of the 96 who died, plus the attitude of the authorities of "Well they are just football fans, hooligan scum to a man" was very evident in the way they reacted both before, during and after the disaster.
 I'm not saying that people wanting to fight other football fans was solely responsible at all, and certainly it had nothing directly to do with what happened on the day, but it was a very big mitigating factor in the scale of it.

Just to put you and this record straight.
It has since been proven after 24 years of perseverance from the Justice for the 96 campaign that the fences were not DIRECTLY responsible for the deaths of many of the INNOCENT fans, it was actually the police, ambulance service , the FA and government of the time that WERE responsible.

Yes I know, I am not saying that fences were directly responsible, and if you knew me and had seen posts passim from myself on this subject you would know that I would never, in any way, blame the Liverpool supporters.

But...

It is a fact that fans were caged in at football grounds. It is a fact that the reason they were caged in is because football fans at the time had a minority of utter twats who couldn't behave responsibly, and it's a fact that if fences hadn't been there at the Leppings Lane End there would not have been 96 dead football fans because there would have been an escape route onto the pitch.

 As much as it hurts, all of those who took part in fighting rival football fans back then had a part to play in the mindset of the authorities who were ultimately responsible for Hillsborough.

[basavfc]

As long as we are all clear then.

"It confirmed Lord Justice Taylor's key finding in August 1989 that the main reason for the disaster was a "failure in police control"."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-inquest-prosecutions-report

[Dave Cooper please]

As long as we are all clear then.

"It confirmed Lord Justice Taylor's key finding in August 1989 that the main reason for the disaster was a "failure in police control"."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-disaster-inquest-prosecutions-report

Absolutely, the key words being "main reason".
There were many, many mitigating factors.

[basavfc]

No, there were no mitigating factors. I cannot sit here and let this pass.
It HAS been concluded that the reasons for the the deaths of 96 innocent fans was caused by the incompetence of the police and that also multiple failures in other emergency services and public bodies contributed to the death toll, and that the likely outcome of a new inquiry will lead to all 96 deaths being judged as unlawful killings.

[PeterWithesShin]

Would 96 people have died if there were no fences?

[Dave Cooper please]

Yes there were mitigating factors!
How can you say that if there were no fences 96 people still would have died? Without fences at the front of the terrace there could not have been a crush, therefore people would not have died. Why were those fences there? Because the authorities believed that football fans could not be trusted to behave themselves.
Why did the authorities believe this? Because a significant minority of fans had spent the last few seasons fighting each other and invading football pitches.

Absolutely Hillsborough was the fault of incompetent policing, poor administration of the ground and a failure of the emergency services to comprehend the extent of the disaster, but you are kidding yourself if you don't see that one of the main reasons for this is because the authorities saw football fans as scumbags to a man, and the reason they had this impression is because some of us, unfortunately at the time, were scumbags.