how good is the AVFC academy really?

[Pat McMahon]

Some really good points above.

We produce a selection of average players and manage to take in transfer fees and squad players to justify the academy. In the ideal world the best of these players would come in for a few games, learn from experienced pros and then go back to the reserves to develop further. Playing too many young players at once ( which to be fair has been done through necessity) diminishes the first team, leads to poor results and destroys confidence.

Over the years we have produced a number of players who have had a couple of decent games and then disappeared - Charlie Young, Frank Pimblett, David (?) Jones, David Hughes, Andy Comyn, Gareth Williams all spring to mind until the end of the 90s. It is only in the past 10 years that we have started to play them in larger numbers, not necessarily helping their development.

Other than Cahill,  and possibly Craig Gardner / Ridgwell, there aren't many who are pulling up trees elsewhere. Playing devil's advocate, maybe MON and Houllier were right not to trust the academy players....

The league is known as the EPL around Asia because other leagues have the word "League" in their name,  such as Liga, Ligue, etc. Most Asians know this means " League " so abbreviate it to EPL to distinguish it from others.

[paul_e]

The problem is too many have been chucked in together.As a rule only a few from a youth team will come through yet we can virtually field a whole side of academy graduates.

If you are going to throw 4-5 in at once you want established players in the other positions, performing at their peak.

Compare us to 'that' man utd side that we beat in '95 - they had neville x2, scholes, butt and beckham all in the team/squad but also had Schmeichel, Keane, Bruce and Pallister who gave them a strong spine to the team and provided the leadership that a young side needs.

[claretandbeer]

We've had the suggestion that Soton has produced better quality players and the Man U of the mid 90s and DOL will tell us about his 'wonderful kids' and let's add Everton with Osman,Rooney and Rodwell and Arsenal's crèche.Not much else.So,Villa must be amongst the top 6  over the last 10-15 years for producing home grown talent.Pity the club doesn't occupy that position.No great individuals but a constant supply,good enough to avoid paying for squad players and good enough to warrant 3m plus tags for Cahill,Gardner,Whittingham,Davis ,Moore and Agbonlahor.
The players can't be pigeon holed for lack of certain abilities.Clark,Davis,Bannan and Whittingham have good technical ability. Agbonlahor,Moore and Delfouneso have pace.Herd,Baker ,Craig Garner and especially Weimann have good awareness for the roles they play.
Britain has not produced many talented players in the last decade.Our local rivals have barely produced any first team players.

[ktvillan]

Apart from Man Yoo, Arsenal, Everton and Southampton, West Ham produced a batch of top class players at the end of the 90s (Lampard,Ferdinand, Cole,Defoe, Carrick), Liverpool produced Fowler, McManaman, Owen and Gerrard plus a steady performer in Carragher,  Chelsea produced Terry (yes I know but he's still been a regular England starter and captain and a consistent PL performer), on a slightly lower level Leeds produced Kelly, Harte, Smith, Kewell, Woodgate, Lennon, and Milner and Boro have produced quite a few PL regulars.    So I'm not sure Villa could say they are in the top 6 over the last 15-20 years or so.

[martin o`who??]

The issue isn't just with the quality. There are numerous talented players in our academy. The issue is that most of the recent grads have come in too fast and been exposed, or come into a losing or unstable environment. When you look at a club like Everton, Moyes is able to introduce youth players gradually amongst a squad of more mature, seasoned professionals. It means that there is less stress, and while there is always expectation it usually comes without thr onus of responsibility. It also means that it is that much harder to break through, and the ones that break through are very good. At Man U that is taken to an even higher level, and breaking through at that club generally means you are ready for PL football.

If Lambert is our manager in 5 years, and he's able to stabilise the club, the types of youth player coming through in that set up will be more ready and qualified for first team action than almost any of those we've seen in the past few seasons.

Exactly, i think, personally, the pressures ruined Albrighton for starters. Theyve been thrown in too deep, too soon and for too long for their own good, they dont have enough experienced players around them, and its really shown in the last few games. My biggest worry, quite apart from relegation, is that some of `em may never recover. 

[old man villa fan]

It would be interesting to take the current top 30 British players and see at which club they made their name and then look whether they were at the same club as a youth player.  I think you will find there are not many.  Many start their development at lower level clubs and are picked up by top clubs later.  How many have actually gone through from youth to 1st team in, say, the top 6 clubs in the PL.

[tomd2103]

The issue isn't just with the quality. There are numerous talented players in our academy. The issue is that most of the recent grads have come in too fast and been exposed, or come into a losing or unstable environment. When you look at a club like Everton, Moyes is able to introduce youth players gradually amongst a squad of more mature, seasoned professionals. It means that there is less stress, and while there is always expectation it usually comes without thr onus of responsibility. It also means that it is that much harder to break through, and the ones that break through are very good. At Man U that is taken to an even higher level, and breaking through at that club generally means you are ready for PL football.

If Lambert is our manager in 5 years, and he's able to stabilise the club, the types of youth player coming through in that set up will be more ready and qualified for first team action than almost any of those we've seen in the past few seasons.

Exactly, i think, personally, the pressures ruined Albrighton for starters. Theyve been thrown in too deep, too soon and for too long for their own good, they dont have enough experienced players around them, and its really shown in the last few games. My biggest worry, quite apart from relegation, is that some of `em may never recover.

Agree with that and it is hard to judge how they are progressing as a result.  I am sure we would have been able to see progression in say Clark and Baker if they had a decent run in the side with an experienced CB and LB either side of them. 

[Dante Lavelli]

The problem is too many have been chucked in together.As a rule only a few from a youth team will come through yet we can virtually field a whole side of academy graduates.

If you are going to throw 4-5 in at once you want established players in the other positions, performing at their peak.

Compare us to 'that' man utd side that we beat in '95 - they had neville x2, scholes, butt and beckham all in the team/squad but also had Schmeichel, Keane, Bruce and Pallister who gave them a strong spine to the team and provided the leadership that a young side needs.

Indeed, I doubt anyone would suggest that trying to blood two inexperienced centre backs and both CM at the  same time is a blueprint for success.

[Dante Lavelli]

The academy was judged the best in the country by the FA (I think) recently when they were deciding which clubs could sign youngsters from outside their region so I think it's fair to say that we're doing a lot right.  Arguably in every way except the first team the club are doing well/the best winning awards for food, the pitch, anti-racism, record sponsorship deals etc (bear with me).

The problem has been the dis-jointed approach of the first team.  MON never really bothered with youth players (both coaching - from what I have read - or looking after their development through loans) and the more recent mangers were like chalk and cheese in their approach.

We're now in the situation where we are over reliant on the youth whereas a more cautious yet strategic approach would see real benefits.

[SoccerHQ]

I think part of the problem has been that only a few of them have been out on loan, and then mostly for short periods.  We have been happy to have them playing in the second string league (whatever name they give it) where they have been playing against younger and more inexperienced players than themselves and then when we have won that league, have clapped ourselves on the back and said how good they are, whilst all the time players at other clubs have been experiencing the hard grind amongst the lower league players and often, not always, have returned better for it.

I agree, I don't think we use the loan system as well as others clubs to be honest.

We tend to keep them all together and are content winning the reserve league or what ever form of competition it is nowadays. Really it's not as strong as even 5 years ago with a lot of clubs not even having reserve teams anymore.

I look at the case of Delfeunso and Albrighton. Fonz came through but largely warmed the bench for the next 18 months afterwards when really he should've been sent out on loan to mature. Now he's getting loaned out all over the place in as much to try to find a buyer I'd imagine. Someone like Albrighton needs a loan as much to give him a kick up the backside as he's lost his way badly here.

Sorry to bring them up but Spurs do it well, Kyle Walker to us to get him used to prem football for 6 months and Caulker to Swansea for the whole of last season

[SoccerHQ]

But other clubs seem much more successful at producing players with the pace, strength and technique to really shine at the top level.  Southampton have produced Bale, Walcott and Oxlade Chamberlain in the last few years, all miles better than anything from our academy.   Many top clubs, and a few lower down as well,  can boast of producing at least one, and often several, genuine world class talents over the last 20 years   

Good point.

Take Samir Carrauthers. Never seen him play but I believe he's a tricky, direct winger?

Has been on the bench once this season so I really don't see the point of just playing him in the youth league. Surely loan him out to a championship/league one club?

[Mister E]

I noticed that Isiah Osbourne was playing for Blackpool this evening, along with Delfouneso. I thought he'd sunk without trace.

[dcdavecollett]

We talk about sending young players out on loan -an idea that I agree with on principle. Looking at the strides made by Andi Weimann in the last year, it occured to me that he was never loaned out to anyone.

Maybe having a superb outlook and giving everything everytime you go onto the pitch is a factor in adjusting to the higher level and allowing your skills to shine.

[Karl Bridges]

Weimann played for Watford on loan. 21 games 4 goals.

[OCD]

That loan spell was probably a big part of his development too. He came back with people saying he hadn't particularly impressed on loan and started scoring for fun in the reserves. He built up some momentum and started getting substitute appearances late into games - most notably against Fulham where his goal saved us from the drop.