Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: brontebilly on January 14, 2013, 12:58:31 AM
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I know we have produced many EPL quality players from Gary Cahill to Craig Gardner and many more in between.
However looking at our current lot it strikes me how technically and tactically inefficient they are. They arent kids by any stretch either, most of them seem to lack the basic attributes of a decent professional footballer.
Take the ability to play the ball out from the back. Lichaj, Herd and Baker have been with the club years. Yet continuously boot the ball into no mans land under little or no pressure. Have they not been thought to value possession? We wont score without the ball.
The likes of Clark has no idea how to organise a defence around him despite him being a captain of every Villa youth side on his way up. Weimann too lacks basic tactical awareness. A load of them do, Bannan included. Where to position yourself for a pass with the ball, what space to cover when you dont.
I know there are club legends like Sid Cowans involved so people are reluctant to critcise but how good of a coach is he really? Many of our players at the first attempt at pressure retreat to kick and rush rubbish that has plagued English football for years. Surely something is badly wrong somewhere?
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Please don't call it the EPL.
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Please don't call it the EPL.
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
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If so many of our youngsters didn't all have to play at once, I'm sure there wouldn't be so many mistakes.
Despite our league position I still feel proud we have developed so many of our own.
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Please don't call it the EPL.
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
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Please don't call it the EPL.
What do you suggest? Division one ?
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I noticed they got knocked out of the FA Youth cup at the 1st attempt 4 0 against Peterborough last Tuesday
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Please don't call it the EPL.
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
It's been referred to as the EPL since 2005 to my knowledge, and probably before that. Get with the program!
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Please don't call it the EPL.
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
Its an abbreviation for the English Premier League, which is the correct name for the league.
Its like saying please don't call Nigel Reo-Coker NRC
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Please don't call it the EPL.
Is the correct answer
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
Its an abbreviation for the English Premier League, which is the correct name for the league.
Its like saying please don't call Nigel Reo-Coker NRC
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The problem with our young players (Bannan, Delph, Clark, Baker, Herd, Lichaj, Weimann, Albrighton etc) is that they pratically didn't get any games under MON and were thrown at the very deep end under Houllier due injuries and same again under TSM and now with Lambert they're asked to play together without really any experienced players beside them so no wonder they are playing like shit.
If they would've gotten to play alongside with the likes of Barry, Milner, Young, Petrov, Dunne etc. enough, they would now be more ready to step up and take responsibility.
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The issue we have with a lot of our none academy players is that they dont give a shit, play badly and are on high wages (Warnock, Dunne, Mutton). Our Academy players do care. Whatever we can throw at them, the effort is always high.
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Please don't call it the EPL.
Is the correct answer
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
Its an abbreviation for the English Premier League, which is the correct name for the league.
Its like saying please don't call Nigel Reo-Coker NRC
I think `Division One` sounds good and has a certain retro attraction and feel to it.
They should get the marketing men onto it and have a big rebranding launch.
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The academy has done well at producing some good income for the club from the players we've sold. On the whole though, the ones who have come through recently don't look good enough for week in week out Premier League football.
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The problem is too many have been chucked in together.As a rule only a few from a youth team will come through yet we can virtually field a whole side of academy graduates.
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Why do we need to all it EPL though, surely it's just PL to us, we're in England, let others outside distinguish the nationality of the League. It's like saying to someone are you off to Villa Park, Birmingham today? We know where the place is. How many people have spoken about the Premier League and confused the person they are speaking to who had assumed it was a different Premier League? How many Premier League's are there that we need to distinguish between them by country? Plus this is a message board for a Premier League team, so do we need to say English rather than Kuwaiti or whoever else may have a PL?
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If the academy produces 1 premier league quality player and a bunch of championship level players every season then it makes us a profit and it's doing at least that.
The first team issues aren't due to the academy, the problem all through the club for 3-4 years is that we have a lot of senior players who don't want to be here.
Dunne, Collins, Warnock and Ireland have all, in that period, shown that they don't give a shit about the club. Add to that Given who is a top professional and has done well but must be a bit pissed off to have been shipped from man city the summer before they won the league. Then add on Nzogbia who's never looked like he cares about any club, he cares about himself and plays with that in mind. Finally you can add in the steaming piles of poop that are Hutton and Heskey, who've never said a bad word about the club but have also never offered anything on the pitch either.
The academy players have been promoted into a squad with an annual change of manager, all with different tactical approaches to the game, the seniors as mentioned creating a terrible team spirit and with a fan base that had become accustomed to top 6 finishes and are happy to blame the slide on them. They've never had a chance to grow into the league under little pressure.
Moving on from that, Weimann, whilst raw, has been one of our best players this season, Clark and Baker both looked good until the Chelsea battering and Bannan is our best creative player (ahead of Ireland and Nzogbia who are, effectively 2 £10m players). Herd is a squad filler in the defensive half of the pitch who will be useful in the squad but is probably not good enough to start regularly, Lichaj is similar, if more limited.
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We create the odd one good player every decade. The rest are lower Premier League players. As the stats are showing.
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Realistically a very large proportion of them won't make it, however many we can sell on if they're not upto the standard we require. Ironically some of the ones we have sold in better times as not good enough would have come in hardy during the current debacle.
My big problem is how they're being used currently. Some of them won't recover from this season because instead of being taken out the side for long periods, they're having to form a key part of our team with heartbreaking results. They've all gone backwards and the manager whether by design or necessity has had to swap out of form young players with no confidence with other out of form young players with no confidence. If the idiots that run our club are so convinced about their Alax of the midlands plan, then the least they can do is actually follow their example and look after the players they're relying on to form our future team.
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have the pedantic police gone yet?
can we not just judge the players who came from the academy on their own merits. Most of them are more than experienced now to be judged on their own merits rather than trying to bring in Dunne, Warnock, McLeish etc into every thread. A lot of you seem to be going off on tangents. This is the poorest Aston Villa side many of us can recall yet many of these 'kids' still cant hold down regular slots and many of their performances have been downright appalling in terms of quality.
Some of our younger players (they are far from kids) are so technically and tactically poor, it has me wondering about the quality of coaching they have been receiving at Bodymoor Heath.
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The academy at the Villa is bloody good when you see how many have come through. The players in the first team are going through a tough spell as they are all playing together against seasoned professionals at other clubs.
When you look at the quality that have made our first team or moved on to play in other teams it's a bloody good hit rate.
It's EPL if you're abroad, here it's badged as Premier League (or Barclays Premier League at the moment).
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Please don't call it the EPL.
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
Its an abbreviation for the English Premier League, which is the correct name for the league.
Its like saying please don't call Nigel Reo-Coker NRC
No it's not.
The correct name is The Premier League or Barclays Premier League depending on how important it is to you to mention the sponsor.
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Please don't call it the EPL.
You're not one of these people that still call it the premiership are you? even though that name was dropped years and years ago.
Whereas it has never been called the EPL.
Its an abbreviation for the English Premier League, which is the correct name for the league.
Its like saying please don't call Nigel Reo-Coker NRC
No it's not.
The correct name is The Premier League or Barclays Premier League depending on how important it is to you to mention the sponsor.
FFS. Our beloved club is on the brink of relegation and we're bickering over what to call the Premier League? It will be academic to us from next season in any event.
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For what its worth David Pleat aka Punch was asked about us on Keys and Gray,and said its vital they stay in the division as their next crop of youngters are better than this current crop and could develop into a good team.
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For what its worth David Pleat aka Punch was asked about us on Keys and Gray,and said its vital they stay in the division as their next crop of youngters are better than this current crop and could develop into a good team.
wasnt something similar being said about this crop when the Moore brothers were being found out?
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For what its worth David Pleat aka Punch was asked about us on Keys and Gray,and said its vital they stay in the division as their next crop of youngters are better than this current crop and could develop into a good team.
wasnt something similar being said about this crop when the Moore brothers were being found out?
And are we sure he said "crop" ?
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I noticed they got knocked out of the FA Youth cup at the 1st attempt 4 0 against Peterborough last Tuesday
Remember our conversation after the Liverpoo game . Whats happened ;(
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FFS. Our beloved club is on the brink of relegation and we're bickering over what to call the Premier League? It will be academic to us from next season in any event.
Then we can get all heated up over whether we will be playing in the Championship or (my choice) the Second Division.....
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The academy at the Villa is bloody good when you see how many have come through. The players in the first team are going through a tough spell as they are all playing together against seasoned professionals at other clubs.
When you look at the quality that have made our first team or moved on to play in other teams it's a bloody good hit rate.
This.
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have the pedantic police gone yet?
can we not just judge the players who came from the academy on their own merits. Most of them are more than experienced now to be judged on their own merits rather than trying to bring in Dunne, Warnock, McLeish etc into every thread. A lot of you seem to be going off on tangents. This is the poorest Aston Villa side many of us can recall yet many of these 'kids' still cant hold down regular slots and many of their performances have been downright appalling in terms of quality.
Some of our younger players (they are far from kids) are so technically and tactically poor, it has me wondering about the quality of coaching they have been receiving at Bodymoor Heath.
No we can't judge them on their own merits because most of them have only experienced playing first team football in the current, lose more than we win, setting. Confidence is the key, our younger players don't have previous form to look back on and show that they've done it, they just have the reality of having been in a struggling squad for the last 3 years.
They're better players than they look currently.
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Why do we need to all it EPL though, surely it's just PL to us, we're in England, let others outside distinguish the nationality of the League. It's like saying to someone are you off to Villa Park, Birmingham today? We know where the place is. How many people have spoken about the Premier League and confused the person they are speaking to who had assumed it was a different Premier League? How many Premier League's are there that we need to distinguish between them by country? Plus this is a message board for a Premier League team, so do we need to say English rather than Kuwaiti or whoever else may have a PL?
I agree with this , bollocks to the EPL this Is THE premier league !
Well, at least until may.
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We'll be facing another of our Academy graduates in the English Cup next week!
As for the original question. A good number of the players who come through our Academy go on to make a living as professional footballers, so in that respect it is a huge success. Do we turn out world class players? No, but then how many world class players have come from the Midlands?
I think Clark and Baker in particular will go on to be decent top division players in four or five years time. The danger is they'll do it with someone else after making the mistakes they'll learn from whilst playing for us.
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Most of us will know it as the Premier League but the term 'EPL' is an Americanism and possibly used internationally. Whenever you see American tv coverage on one of those things that we're not allowed to talk about, they refer to the EPL. Some people may see it as bastardisation of the English language but it's just the reality that things are termed differently in different places.
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Why do we need to all it EPL though, surely it's just PL to us, we're in England, let others outside distinguish the nationality of the League. It's like saying to someone are you off to Villa Park, Birmingham today? We know where the place is. How many people have spoken about the Premier League and confused the person they are speaking to who had assumed it was a different Premier League? How many Premier League's are there that we need to distinguish between them by country? Plus this is a message board for a Premier League team, so do we need to say English rather than Kuwaiti or whoever else may have a PL?
I agree with this , bollocks to the EPL this Is THE premier league !
Well, at least until may.
Can't we just call it Division 1
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The issue isn't just with the quality. There are numerous talented players in our academy. The issue is that most of the recent grads have come in too fast and been exposed, or come into a losing or unstable environment. When you look at a club like Everton, Moyes is able to introduce youth players gradually amongst a squad of more mature, seasoned professionals. It means that there is less stress, and while there is always expectation it usually comes without thr onus of responsibility. It also means that it is that much harder to break through, and the ones that break through are very good. At Man U that is taken to an even higher level, and breaking through at that club generally means you are ready for PL football.
If Lambert is our manager in 5 years, and he's able to stabilise the club, the types of youth player coming through in that set up will be more ready and qualified for first team action than almost any of those we've seen in the past few seasons.
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yeah, the kids are shit, the coaches down there are shit, the facilities are shit, the medical team are shit!
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Thanks rutski, you made me laugh.
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The guys playing in the first team are essentially reserves, I never heard anyone get excited about Herd, Baker, Lichaj etc when they were playing in the youth teams. Cahill, Moores, Delfouneso etc were eulogised about in the past and more recently G Gardner and to a lesser extent the likes of Drennan, Grealish, Johnson, Siegrist etc. I'd certainly add Albrighton and Delfouneso to the first list and probably Clark and Bannan too, they are run of the mill players, nothing to get too excited about, may turn out to be reasonable lower Prem/Championship players like Ridgewell, Whittingham, L Moore and S Davis, but nothing more imo. Weimann will probably be the best of the lot imo. Still, if say Weimann, Gardner and a couple of the next generation go on to be top players that's still not bad going for our Academy.
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I think part of the problem has been that only a few of them have been out on loan, and then mostly for short periods. We have been happy to have them playing in the second string league (whatever name they give it) where they have been playing against younger and more inexperienced players than themselves and then when we have won that league, have clapped ourselves on the back and said how good they are, whilst all the time players at other clubs have been experiencing the hard grind amongst the lower league players and often, not always, have returned better for it.
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Why do we need to all it EPL though, surely it's just PL to us, we're in England, let others outside distinguish the nationality of the League. It's like saying to someone are you off to Villa Park, Birmingham today? We know where the place is. How many people have spoken about the Premier League and confused the person they are speaking to who had assumed it was a different Premier League? How many Premier League's are there that we need to distinguish between them by country? Plus this is a message board for a Premier League team, so do we need to say English rather than Kuwaiti or whoever else may have a PL?
I agree with this , bollocks to the EPL this Is THE premier league !
Well, at least until may.
Can't we just call it Division 1
I like "The First Division".
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As others have said, the problem is that we have had to throw them all in together. If we take Ciaran Clark as an example, let us not forget that he capatained England at every level up to U20's before electing to play for Ireland. The final England side he captained contained Gibbs, Smalling, Sturridge, Scott Sinclair and Ryan Bertrand to name but a few - surely this would suggest he is highly regarded in the game and a player of some potential?
Unlike his erstwhile England team mates, Clark (and the rest of his Bodymoor Heath peers) has not had the luxury of playing for a settled team competing at the top, instead he has been fire-fighting for the best part of two years. Would any young player look consistently good in such a situation? Remember how average Gareth Bale seemed to be when he first started off in that struggling Tottenham team? Now is not the time to fully judge these players.
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At least he didn't say 'Match Day 12'
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I've been saying for a long time that the club is very good at producing strong youth teams that win youth trophies and look good as a collective, but not so good at producing genuinely gifted individuals. We churn out a fair few who can perform at PL or championship level week in week out, like Gardner, and Ridgewell but how many genuine top class players capable of looking at home in Champions League level team have we produced? Cahill I suppose, and we flogged him for relative peanuts, and before that there was Barry.
But other clubs seem much more successful at producing players with the pace, strength and technique to really shine at the top level. Southampton have produced Bale, Walcott and Oxlade Chamberlain in the last few years, all miles better than anything from our academy. Many top clubs, and a few lower down as well, can boast of producing at least one, and often several, genuine world class talents over the last 20 years
I think Weimann has the potential to be a top player with his movement and finishing, but what I notice about most of our graduates is they seem to lack pace even if they have a decent touch. Bannan seems technically decent but is very one paced, and Clark and co at the back are often left standing by attackers. Delfounso has a good touch but seemed to do everything in slow motion at PL level. You need some pace over 5-10 yards to close down opponents, or to burst past them into space. Gabby has it, but lacks the touch to make it count. I think the focus of the academy needs to be more on indvidual technique, pace and strength than on youth team glory.
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Agreed KT. Even when they have enough pace, they seem mostly very indecisive and lack confidence when making decisions in the final third - Albrighton being perhaps the epitome of this problem. I think Clark and Baker could each turn out very well but have been thrown into the deep-end without buoyancy aids, and they look in real need of a break to get their wits together. Bannan looks much more comfortable in a more advanced position and will get better with experience, ie learning which pass to play when. I also agree that Weimann is the best prospect we have, and if we go down I think there are plenty of clubs who would come in for him, he has a great career ahead of him.
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I think part of the problem has been that only a few of them have been out on loan, and then mostly for short periods.
Quite a few of them have been out on loan and the majority of them couldn't even hold down starting places in Championship sides which speaks volumes really.
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Some really good points above.
We produce a selection of average players and manage to take in transfer fees and squad players to justify the academy. In the ideal world the best of these players would come in for a few games, learn from experienced pros and then go back to the reserves to develop further. Playing too many young players at once ( which to be fair has been done through necessity) diminishes the first team, leads to poor results and destroys confidence.
Over the years we have produced a number of players who have had a couple of decent games and then disappeared - Charlie Young, Frank Pimblett, David (?) Jones, David Hughes, Andy Comyn, Gareth Williams all spring to mind until the end of the 90s. It is only in the past 10 years that we have started to play them in larger numbers, not necessarily helping their development.
Other than Cahill, and possibly Craig Gardner / Ridgwell, there aren't many who are pulling up trees elsewhere. Playing devil's advocate, maybe MON and Houllier were right not to trust the academy players....
The league is known as the EPL around Asia because other leagues have the word "League" in their name, such as Liga, Ligue, etc. Most Asians know this means " League " so abbreviate it to EPL to distinguish it from others.
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The problem is too many have been chucked in together.As a rule only a few from a youth team will come through yet we can virtually field a whole side of academy graduates.
If you are going to throw 4-5 in at once you want established players in the other positions, performing at their peak.
Compare us to 'that' man utd side that we beat in '95 - they had neville x2, scholes, butt and beckham all in the team/squad but also had Schmeichel, Keane, Bruce and Pallister who gave them a strong spine to the team and provided the leadership that a young side needs.
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We've had the suggestion that Soton has produced better quality players and the Man U of the mid 90s and DOL will tell us about his 'wonderful kids' and let's add Everton with Osman,Rooney and Rodwell and Arsenal's crèche.Not much else.So,Villa must be amongst the top 6 over the last 10-15 years for producing home grown talent.Pity the club doesn't occupy that position.No great individuals but a constant supply,good enough to avoid paying for squad players and good enough to warrant 3m plus tags for Cahill,Gardner,Whittingham,Davis ,Moore and Agbonlahor.
The players can't be pigeon holed for lack of certain abilities.Clark,Davis,Bannan and Whittingham have good technical ability. Agbonlahor,Moore and Delfouneso have pace.Herd,Baker ,Craig Garner and especially Weimann have good awareness for the roles they play.
Britain has not produced many talented players in the last decade.Our local rivals have barely produced any first team players.
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Apart from Man Yoo, Arsenal, Everton and Southampton, West Ham produced a batch of top class players at the end of the 90s (Lampard,Ferdinand, Cole,Defoe, Carrick), Liverpool produced Fowler, McManaman, Owen and Gerrard plus a steady performer in Carragher, Chelsea produced Terry (yes I know but he's still been a regular England starter and captain and a consistent PL performer), on a slightly lower level Leeds produced Kelly, Harte, Smith, Kewell, Woodgate, Lennon, and Milner and Boro have produced quite a few PL regulars. So I'm not sure Villa could say they are in the top 6 over the last 15-20 years or so.
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The issue isn't just with the quality. There are numerous talented players in our academy. The issue is that most of the recent grads have come in too fast and been exposed, or come into a losing or unstable environment. When you look at a club like Everton, Moyes is able to introduce youth players gradually amongst a squad of more mature, seasoned professionals. It means that there is less stress, and while there is always expectation it usually comes without thr onus of responsibility. It also means that it is that much harder to break through, and the ones that break through are very good. At Man U that is taken to an even higher level, and breaking through at that club generally means you are ready for PL football.
If Lambert is our manager in 5 years, and he's able to stabilise the club, the types of youth player coming through in that set up will be more ready and qualified for first team action than almost any of those we've seen in the past few seasons.
Exactly, i think, personally, the pressures ruined Albrighton for starters. Theyve been thrown in too deep, too soon and for too long for their own good, they dont have enough experienced players around them, and its really shown in the last few games. My biggest worry, quite apart from relegation, is that some of `em may never recover.
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It would be interesting to take the current top 30 British players and see at which club they made their name and then look whether they were at the same club as a youth player. I think you will find there are not many. Many start their development at lower level clubs and are picked up by top clubs later. How many have actually gone through from youth to 1st team in, say, the top 6 clubs in the PL.
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The issue isn't just with the quality. There are numerous talented players in our academy. The issue is that most of the recent grads have come in too fast and been exposed, or come into a losing or unstable environment. When you look at a club like Everton, Moyes is able to introduce youth players gradually amongst a squad of more mature, seasoned professionals. It means that there is less stress, and while there is always expectation it usually comes without thr onus of responsibility. It also means that it is that much harder to break through, and the ones that break through are very good. At Man U that is taken to an even higher level, and breaking through at that club generally means you are ready for PL football.
If Lambert is our manager in 5 years, and he's able to stabilise the club, the types of youth player coming through in that set up will be more ready and qualified for first team action than almost any of those we've seen in the past few seasons.
Exactly, i think, personally, the pressures ruined Albrighton for starters. Theyve been thrown in too deep, too soon and for too long for their own good, they dont have enough experienced players around them, and its really shown in the last few games. My biggest worry, quite apart from relegation, is that some of `em may never recover.
Agree with that and it is hard to judge how they are progressing as a result. I am sure we would have been able to see progression in say Clark and Baker if they had a decent run in the side with an experienced CB and LB either side of them.
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The problem is too many have been chucked in together.As a rule only a few from a youth team will come through yet we can virtually field a whole side of academy graduates.
If you are going to throw 4-5 in at once you want established players in the other positions, performing at their peak.
Compare us to 'that' man utd side that we beat in '95 - they had neville x2, scholes, butt and beckham all in the team/squad but also had Schmeichel, Keane, Bruce and Pallister who gave them a strong spine to the team and provided the leadership that a young side needs.
Indeed, I doubt anyone would suggest that trying to blood two inexperienced centre backs and both CM at the same time is a blueprint for success.
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The academy was judged the best in the country by the FA (I think) recently when they were deciding which clubs could sign youngsters from outside their region so I think it's fair to say that we're doing a lot right. Arguably in every way except the first team the club are doing well/the best winning awards for food, the pitch, anti-racism, record sponsorship deals etc (bear with me).
The problem has been the dis-jointed approach of the first team. MON never really bothered with youth players (both coaching - from what I have read - or looking after their development through loans) and the more recent mangers were like chalk and cheese in their approach.
We're now in the situation where we are over reliant on the youth whereas a more cautious yet strategic approach would see real benefits.
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I think part of the problem has been that only a few of them have been out on loan, and then mostly for short periods. We have been happy to have them playing in the second string league (whatever name they give it) where they have been playing against younger and more inexperienced players than themselves and then when we have won that league, have clapped ourselves on the back and said how good they are, whilst all the time players at other clubs have been experiencing the hard grind amongst the lower league players and often, not always, have returned better for it.
I agree, I don't think we use the loan system as well as others clubs to be honest.
We tend to keep them all together and are content winning the reserve league or what ever form of competition it is nowadays. Really it's not as strong as even 5 years ago with a lot of clubs not even having reserve teams anymore.
I look at the case of Delfeunso and Albrighton. Fonz came through but largely warmed the bench for the next 18 months afterwards when really he should've been sent out on loan to mature. Now he's getting loaned out all over the place in as much to try to find a buyer I'd imagine. Someone like Albrighton needs a loan as much to give him a kick up the backside as he's lost his way badly here.
Sorry to bring them up but Spurs do it well, Kyle Walker to us to get him used to prem football for 6 months and Caulker to Swansea for the whole of last season
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But other clubs seem much more successful at producing players with the pace, strength and technique to really shine at the top level. Southampton have produced Bale, Walcott and Oxlade Chamberlain in the last few years, all miles better than anything from our academy. Many top clubs, and a few lower down as well, can boast of producing at least one, and often several, genuine world class talents over the last 20 years
Good point.
Take Samir Carrauthers. Never seen him play but I believe he's a tricky, direct winger?
Has been on the bench once this season so I really don't see the point of just playing him in the youth league. Surely loan him out to a championship/league one club?
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I noticed that Isiah Osbourne was playing for Blackpool this evening, along with Delfouneso. I thought he'd sunk without trace.
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We talk about sending young players out on loan -an idea that I agree with on principle. Looking at the strides made by Andi Weimann in the last year, it occured to me that he was never loaned out to anyone.
Maybe having a superb outlook and giving everything everytime you go onto the pitch is a factor in adjusting to the higher level and allowing your skills to shine.
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Weimann played for Watford on loan. 21 games 4 goals.
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That loan spell was probably a big part of his development too. He came back with people saying he hadn't particularly impressed on loan and started scoring for fun in the reserves. He built up some momentum and started getting substitute appearances late into games - most notably against Fulham where his goal saved us from the drop.
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Part of the problem with our young crop of the players (Bannan, Albrighton, Clark, Baker, Delph, Weimann, Lichaj etc) is that they weren't given enough games starting 3-4 years ago, starting with MON.
They would now be more mature and experienced to play week-in week-out if they would've been given more playing time alongside of Barry, Petrov, Milner, Dunne, Collins etc and learn from them. Houllier did that to some extent but ultimately had to throw them into the deep end in some parts of his season due injuries.
Clark and Baker have potential for becoming good or at least decent premier league defenders if they get to play alongside of Vlaar and another commanding defender to show them the ropes. Delph and Weimann are probably our most determined and mature young players but they need other players taking off the pressure from their shoulders, and I think Benteke, Gabby, N'Zogbia and Bent will do that for Weimann but we don't have anyone else than Westwood to do that for Delph.
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Thanks to Karl and OCD for putting me right on Weimann's loan spell.
Isn't it strange that we send lads like Johnson on loan for a single month? I'm not sure what 'development' we're expecting to see in such a short period.
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Thanks to Karl and OCD for putting me right on Weimann's loan spell.
Isn't it strange that we send lads like Johnson on loan for a single month? I'm not sure what 'development' we're expecting to see in such a short period.
Johnson was sent back by Yeovil wasn't he? He seems another highly rated but obviously they weren't impressed.
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The problem is exactly the same as with all our academy lads. Arsene Wenger (who, whatever you may think of him, knows a thing or two about bring through young players) says that there are two most important age phases, in general: 0-5 and 18-22, the former because that's the entire instinct of playing the game and the latter because it's the entire reality of playing the game. Our players' 18-22 has been utterly and hopelessly disrupted, and you can see it in all of their flaws: Bannan's difficulty in picking the right pass, Clark's lack of reading the game, Delph's positional sense, Baker's positional sense, Albrighton's final third decision making - all game realities rather than talents. These players need patience and time we cannot afford in order to get them back on track, and they'll probably never reach their potential.
Why are they like this then? MON, to a huge extent, whose prejudices about certain players are well-documented. GH's attempts to clear up his predecessors' messes often did more harm than good, and in any case he didn't get the chance to enact his plans long term. The major fault then? Randy Lerner, for appointing the man least likely in the world to continue Houllier's line of thought but more competently than the Frenchman. How is Alex McLeish going to be Guardiola to Clark's Pique? How is he going to champion Bannan like Pirlo was by Carlo Ancelotti? How is he even to sponsor Albrighton in the way Rodgers took the punt on Scott Sinclair? By the time Lambert has come in, it all feels a bit too late to throw them in together, and you feel that what a lot of them need is just a change of scenery to relaunch their careers and frankly their lives.
All young players who make it, at any stage of the game, have had people who believe in them at the right time of their development, and our guys have not had that. Whether it's MON's mistrust, Houllier's interrupted plan or McLeish's incompetence, something has gone wrong every step of the way. Two games against Fulham stick in the mind: Clark's debut at centre-back at Villa Park in an injury crisis under MON, where we won 2-0 and he looked un-troubled; and the away game of GH's season, where Bannan's Beckham-like pass was controlled and finished by Albrighton like Aaron Lennon on a good day. That is the potential we're talking here, and that is the potential that sheer incompetence from the top down at the club has wasted.
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Weimann is the only one who will make it as a good/great top level player. The rest in the first team squad won't.
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The problem is exactly the same as with all our academy lads. Arsene Wenger (who, whatever you may think of him, knows a thing or two about bring through young players) says that there are two most important age phases, in general: 0-5 and 18-22, the former because that's the entire instinct of playing the game and the latter because it's the entire reality of playing the game. Our players' 18-22 has been utterly and hopelessly disrupted, and you can see it in all of their flaws: Bannan's difficulty in picking the right pass, Clark's lack of reading the game, Delph's positional sense, Baker's positional sense, Albrighton's final third decision making - all game realities rather than talents. These players need patience and time we cannot afford in order to get them back on track, and they'll probably never reach their potential.
Why are they like this then? MON, to a huge extent, whose prejudices about certain players are well-documented. GH's attempts to clear up his predecessors' messes often did more harm than good, and in any case he didn't get the chance to enact his plans long term. The major fault then? Randy Lerner, for appointing the man least likely in the world to continue Houllier's line of thought but more competently than the Frenchman. How is Alex McLeish going to be Guardiola to Clark's Pique? How is he going to champion Bannan like Pirlo was by Carlo Ancelotti? How is he even to sponsor Albrighton in the way Rodgers took the punt on Scott Sinclair? By the time Lambert has come in, it all feels a bit too late to throw them in together, and you feel that what a lot of them need is just a change of scenery to relaunch their careers and frankly their lives.
All young players who make it, at any stage of the game, have had people who believe in them at the right time of their development, and our guys have not had that. Whether it's MON's mistrust, Houllier's interrupted plan or McLeish's incompetence, something has gone wrong every step of the way. Two games against Fulham stick in the mind: Clark's debut at centre-back at Villa Park in an injury crisis under MON, where we won 2-0 and he looked un-troubled; and the away game of GH's season, where Bannan's Beckham-like pass was controlled and finished by Albrighton like Aaron Lennon on a good day. That is the potential we're talking here, and that is the potential that sheer incompetence from the top down at the club has wasted.
This. They've all shown, at one point or another, that they have the talent. But worse than merely wasting potential, their mismanagement over the last few years has destroyed some careers. None of them will get that time back to try again
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I think it's down to a mentality, we have a good number of players who have grown up together but don't have the mental side to their game right. We've seen them all show talent at different times but all of them are mentally fragile apart from Weimann. Probably it's in large part down to the way they've been introduced to a struggling team.
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Part of the problem with our young crop of the players (Bannan, Albrighton, Clark, Baker, Delph, Weimann, Lichaj etc) is that they weren't given enough games starting 3-4 years ago, starting with MON.
They would now be more mature and experienced to play week-in week-out if they would've been given more playing time alongside of Barry, Petrov, Milner, Dunne, Collins etc and learn from them. Houllier did that to some extent but ultimately had to throw them into the deep end in some parts of his season due injuries.
Clark and Baker have potential for becoming good or at least decent premier league defenders if they get to play alongside of Vlaar and another commanding defender to show them the ropes. Delph and Weimann are probably our most determined and mature young players but they need other players taking off the pressure from their shoulders, and I think Benteke, Gabby, N'Zogbia and Bent will do that for Weimann but we don't have anyone else than Westwood to do that for Delph.
The reason they weren't given game time is because they weren't good enough and probably never will be. Imagine MON had thrown one or two of them into a league game when we were serious contenders for Champ League. We would have gone bats*** and rightly so.
I agree, though, that to get the best out of the current youngster we need some old heads beside them to bring them along. But then again everyone can see that apart from Paul Lambert and Randy Lerner seemingly.