Press-ure's off

[Dante Lavelli]

Can we call Edwards as better than Bolt, he's held the WR for 17 years now.

Shit me, was that 17 years ago.

Did you know that Edwards no longer believes in god.  Pretty much as soon as he gave up athletics he realised the folly in his beliefs, hence why he quit Songs of Praise.  The theory does that religion was just away of him feeling less important “in the bigger scheme of things” and that fate/god would take care of everything, ultimately reducing the pressure he felt.

I read this in a book called Bounce.  Very good if you want to know why some sportsmen excel.

[Steve R]

It is nigh on impossible to compare sportsmen across eras, especially when their greatest achievements were 70 odd years apart. In 1936 sprinters went to the track armed with a trowel to dig a starting hole, they did not have blocks. They ran on a cinder track. If Owens had an army of coaches, none of them would have been able to review his technique on a laptop. etc. etc.

Had Bolt been born in 1912 he would have been nowhere near as fast as his own current world record either.

I must have missed Bolt's long jump gold, so I can't comment on that.

All you can do is judge achievement in the context of its time, and apply some nebulus D/L method to get a view as to who is or was the greatest. Subjective to say the least.

I'd go with Owens.

[dave.woodhall]

In the words of Tony Morley,"Give me the boots he wears and the pitches he plays on and I'd have been quicker than Ashley Young."

[Percy McCarthy]

I don't think it's difficult to judge someone as the best when he's twice as good as every other player in his or any other era.

I can see it's difficult when there are fine margins involved.

[Risso]

Exactly. If Risso's points were valid there would be a host of players from the same era with similar averages.

Nonsense.  He was playing for the best team in the world, in an era when there were three or four other test playing countries.  He was easily the best player in the best team, who went around battering countries like South Africa and India.   Cricket isn't exactly a world sport these days, but it was hardly played by anybody at all back then.

[Percy McCarthy]

Nonsense, or other players from that era would have been better than half as good as him.

[Risso]

Nonsense, or other players from that era would have been better than half as good as him.

It really isn't saying very much.  Four test playing countries with 6 batsmen each at any one time.  He was the best batsman at a time when hardly anybody played cricket.  Big deal, in the list of greatest sportsmen ever, he wouldn't be in my top 50.

[hilts_coolerking]

Exactly. If Risso's points were valid there would be a host of players from the same era with similar averages.

Nonsense.  He was playing for the best team in the world, in an era when there were three or four other test playing countries.  He was easily the best player in the best team, who went around battering countries like South Africa and India.   Cricket isn't exactly a world sport these days, but it was hardly played by anybody at all back then.

Wally Hammond and Sir Len Hutton who were of similar eras and are judged as two of the all time greats averaged 58 and 56 respectively.  No-one in Bradman's era or any other era for that matter got anywhere near him.

[Percy McCarthy]

Nonsense, or other players from that era would have been better than half as good as him.

It really isn't saying very much.  Four test playing countries with 6 batsmen each at any one time.  He was the best batsman at a time when hardly anybody played cricket.  Big deal, in the list of greatest sportsmen ever, he wouldn't be in my top 50.

I honestly think that saying Messi wouldn't be in your top fifty Barcelona players would be a less ridiculous remark.

In my list of greatest sportsmen ever, there isn't a list, just a definitive answer.

[Risso]

Nonsense, or other players from that era would have been better than half as good as him.

It really isn't saying very much.  Four test playing countries with 6 batsmen each at any one time.  He was the best batsman at a time when hardly anybody played cricket.  Big deal, in the list of greatest sportsmen ever, he wouldn't be in my top 50.

I honestly think that saying Messi wouldn't be in your top fifty Barcelona players would be a less ridiculous remark.

In my list of greatest sportsmen ever, there isn't a list, just a definitive answer.

Cricket in those days was not far removed from the Oxford/University boat race, it was just basically England and Australia playing each other all the time.  He'd obviously worked out exactly how to play the England bowlers, until the bodyline series.  You can't argue with his record compared to everybody else at the time, but hardly anybody else did play cricket, apart from a few English toffs.  He never played a series in the Indian sub-continent for example, with all the different conditions that that generates.

[Percy McCarthy]

Never played on the sub-continent? So what? You just said India were crap.

He played on much worse pitches than today's with much worse equipment and training, against bowlers who were not much different from today's.

And please try to understand before one of us dies - if it was so much easier everybody else from that era would be nearer to his record, instead of matching fairly consistently the all-eras average.

Now, the rest of you carry on your debate for second place on the list.

[Risso]

Never played on the sub-continent? So what? You just said India were crap.

He played on much worse pitches than today's with much worse equipment and training, against bowlers who were not much different from today's.

And please try to understand before one of us dies - if it was so much easier everybody else from that era would be nearer to his record, instead of matching fairly consistently the all-eras average.

Now, the rest of you carry on your debate for second place on the list.

I understand perfectly thank you, I just happen to disagree that the best person in what was essentially a two team sport 80 years ago is the best sportsman ever.  He isn't.

[hilts_coolerking]

Cricket in those days was not far removed from the Oxford/University boat race, it was just basically England and Australia playing each other all the time.  He'd obviously worked out exactly how to play the England bowlers, until the bodyline series.  You can't argue with his record compared to everybody else at the time, but hardly anybody else did play cricket, apart from a few English toffs.  He never played a series in the Indian sub-continent for example, with all the different conditions that that generates.

In other words Bradman played the majority of his games against the toughest opposition going.  No easy, fill-yer-boots games for him.  And at just about the peak of his career he lost 4 years to WW2.  Had there been Tests played at that time, or had he played more games against the so-called lesser nations (and let's not forget he never played against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe), his record would almost certainly have been even better.

If there's anyone in another sport who dominated to such an extent that they are statistically twice as good as anyone else ever to play the game in 135 years, I'd like to hear about them.

[Percy McCarthy]

Honestly Risso, I like and respect you and all that, but I've read more sense today from the conspiracy theorists on the Mars thread in off-topic.

 According to your logic, if there was a two-man 100 metres between Jesse Owens and A. N. Other, and Owens ran it in 5 seconds, it wouldn't matter because it was two-man race.

When you can come up with a high-jumper who can jump 16 feet, a golfer who has won 36 majors, or a javelin thrower who can chuck the fucking thing out of the Olympic stadium, you'll have an argument. Until then, forget it.

[Dave Cooper please]

Statistically Percy is correct, but as we all all know there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

I love this discussion by the way.

Anyway, best male athlete around at the moment? Whoever won the decathlon. Don't even know who he is but I'd like to see Bolt pole vault.

Viva Jess Ennis.