Are we still Doug's club?

[Risso]

Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.

Never.  He also wouldnt have burdned the club with £220m in debts for mostly shite players.

Hindsight eh.

Oh dear lord. Firstly, he didn't sign the players. Secondly, the club isn't burdened with anything.
Randy has put money in from his own assets.

The club is burdened with a huge amount of debt.  The reason we've had to sell our best players, and not replace them is that clearly, the financial situation is a big problem.

Yes, obviously, but the club itself not burdened. Randy took money from one asset to finance another. That's not burdened. There's no third party we owe money to, its not a PLC. Villa are owned and financed 100% by Randy Lerner and the Lerner Trust.
Its true that he wants Villa to finance itself as much as possible (which is prudent) but its also true that he could refinance it at any time.

You need to look at the accounts again.

At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m.  Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking.  Against this we had debtors of £20m.   THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.

[Mazrim]

The club owes a huge amount of money to Randy.

That is still a debt, in the form of loans with a repayable date, and at an appropriate level of interest.

We're not in hock to Wonga.com or any other unscrupulous lender, you're right there, and he's not draining the club of money like Glazer is his, but it is still actual money that needs to be repaid at some point.

The fact the club is in a poor financial position is why we sold our best players and didn't replace them, is probably to a large degree why our manager is Alex McLeish, and is why we will be acquiring Bosmans this summer.

It is real money we owe, and it is having a tangible impact. It can't be ignored.

It's not being ignored. But I dont see any point in worrying about how much money Randy owes himself.
The thought is actually quite ridiculous.

[Concrete John]

At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m.  Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking.  Against this we had debtors of £20m.   THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.

So who is the other £60m owed to then?

As I understand it we owe that to the Lerner family trust, so although not Randy or our parent company, it is still part of the same larger whole?

[Risso]

At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m.  Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking.  Against this we had debtors of £20m.   THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.

So who is the other £60m owed to then?

As I understand it we owe that to the Lerner family trust, so although not Randy or our parent company, it is still part of the same larger whole?

£11m bank loans
£20m trade creditors
£9m tax
£21m accruals

None of that is owed to anything to do with Lerner.

[Concrete John]

At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m.  Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking.  Against this we had debtors of £20m.   THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.

So who is the other £60m owed to then?

As I understand it we owe that to the Lerner family trust, so although not Randy or our parent company, it is still part of the same larger whole?

£11m bank loans
£20m trade creditors
£9m tax
£21m accruals

None of that is owed to anything to do with Lerner.

Fair enough then.

However, as this is to May 2011 I'd imagine the circa £20m transfer profit we made last summer has helped offset this somewhat.

[Mazrim]

As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.

The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.

But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.

[Risso]

As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.

The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.

But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.

And the fact that he hasn't for some time, while all the time selling off our better players and employing dross like McLeish leads you to think that he will this summer?  As for trusting him to manage the business properly, that's a great big gnasher style *facepalm*.

[Ron Manager]

If I might say so some very intelligent comments and views re Doug/Randy on this thread. This is my take on these gentlemen.

Doug  You had to be around in 1968/69 when Doug breezed into the club with his Roller and his buisness acumen.He brought in a manager who at that time was the equivilant of Mourinho in Tommy Docherty and the crowds came back. Doug and Pat Matthews saved this club from going under..and that is a cold hard fact. That is why is he so popular with older supporters.

Like all of us he has made lots of mistakes but never got the club in any debt during his tenure as far as I am aware.

On the debit side he upset everybody (including his own son Peter) the highlight being when he reached out across the aisle to glad hand a furious Abramovich as he was storming out of the ground just as we were in the process of taking three points off Chelsea. Absolutely brilliant timing on Dougs part and he knew exactly what he was doing!

He was also responsible for removing the historic Trinity Road stand one of the magificent structures in football and for that evil act he deserves any ammount of abuse he got towards the end of his reign.

But along with Frederick Rinder he remains one of the greats in Aston Villas history.

Randy Lerner.  At one stage he had achieved god like status at Villa Park. He could do no wrong. His problem was letting a manager MON have control of almost everything involved with Aston Villa and hoping he would get it right.

Well MON came close but like Devon Loch just failed to get over the line and thats when Mr Lerner decided to act and stop the
drain on his resources. Mr Faulkner became an important figure in his plan. For anybody who has worked in city centre offices in the last twenty years his type abound. A Gus Hedges type, fairly young with very little knowledge of the game a former Relationship Manager groan! apparently he had an input into the choice of the current manager. That is shocking but
as Randy doesnt appear to have an in depth knowledge of our game at the top level perhaps it isnt!

If we take it that Alex McCleish moves on in the summer and a manager of the calibre of Lambert is put in suddenly Randys
credit rating will shoot up again with the Villa faithful.We should with any luck still be in the top division next season and have perhaps something to look forward to.

To sum up Doug for periods of time did an excellent job at the helm. Randy could yet surprise us during the summer months
with his plans for the clubs future.

And no Doug you did not invent the bicycle kick that was Leonidas. You old rogue!!

[pestria]

As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.

The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.

But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.

 

[bill]

Are we still Doug's club?

Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.

No, he'd just sack a European and Super cup winning manager and appoint two 3rd rate managers to replace him.

I hate Ellis's guts for using our club as his own personal toy . However to condemn him for the exit of Saunders would be factually incorrect. Saunders left of his own accord on a point of principal. The Chairman at the time wished to cancel Saunders rolling contract and replace it with a fixed term appointment. Saunders felt aggrieved at this and walked out. The Chairman at the time was Ronald Bendall.However  I do believe if Ellis had retained control prior to this then in all probability Saunders would have left before we even entered our golden era.

[dave.woodhall]

Are we still Doug's club?

Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.

No, he'd just sack a European and Super cup winning manager and appoint two 3rd rate managers to replace him.

I hate Ellis's guts for using our club as his own personal toy . However to condemn him for the exit of Saunders would be factually incorrect. Saunders left of his own accord on a point of principal. The Chairman at the time wished to cancel Saunders rolling contract and replace it with a fixed term appointment. Saunders felt aggrieved at this and walked out. The Chairman at the time was Ronald Bendall.However  I do believe if Ellis had retained control prior to this then in all probability Saunders would have left before we even entered our golden era.

The manager referred to here is Tony Barton.

[dave.woodhall]

Maybe we did end up in Division 3 as part of that process, but we also ended up with arguably the most successful period of the club's history.

Once he'd left.

[Mazrim]

As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.

The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.

But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.

And the fact that he hasn't for some time, while all the time selling off our better players and employing dross like McLeish leads you to think that he will this summer?  As for trusting him to manage the business properly, that's a great big gnasher style *facepalm*.

Well, I'm not saying he's handled footballing matters well at all. In fact I'm quite often critcal in that regard.
But yes, I'm affraid I'll have to trust a business, with all its highly qualified staff, that has made billions out of banking to handle its own banking affairs Risso, yes. If you know of another way a club like Villa could bankroll a major rebuilding of the squad and facilities please furnish us with your greatness.

He has proven he is willing to plough significant money in. This is a fact. The last year of reigning the spending in is no more typical than the previous years of spending. In fact less so.

I dont know why my points are being so misunderstood. Let me clarify my position again. Randy CAN spend if he wants to. Those who are saying he can not are incorrect. As for whether he will remains to be seen. Nobody, including yourself, can say either way outside of speculation.

[Risso]

As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.

The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.

But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.

And the fact that he hasn't for some time, while all the time selling off our better players and employing dross like McLeish leads you to think that he will this summer?  As for trusting him to manage the business properly, that's a great big gnasher style *facepalm*.

Well, I'm not saying he's handled footballing matters well at all. In fact I'm quite often critcal in that regard.
But yes, I'm affraid I'll have to trust a business, with all its highly qualified staff, that has made billions out of banking to handle its own banking affairs Risso, yes. If you know of another way a club like Villa could bankroll a major rebuilding of the squad and facilities please furnish us with your greatness.

He has proven he is willing to plough significant money in. This is a fact. The last year of reigning the spending in is no more typical than the previous years of spending. In fact less so.

I dont know why my points are being so misunderstood. Let me clarify my position again. Randy CAN spend if he wants to. Those who are saying he can not are incorrect. As for whether he will remains to be seen. Nobody, including yourself, can say either way outside of speculation.

No.  You said that the only people we owe money to is Lerner himself, and that just isn't true, as I have pointed out.  This means that any money he puts into the club is first of all going to have to go towards paying the bills.  That much at least, is a fact.

[Mazrim]

Risso, you're about a year and a bit behind the times in terms of Villa's finances. That much is a fact.


That's not a dig or anything but a few things have happened since then.