Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Vanilla on April 30, 2012, 02:12:11 PM
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After Deadly's statement in the Birmingham Mail that he believes Villa, under McLeish, will be pushing for Europe next season, is Villa still shaped in the DD mould? i.e. a couple of seasons of investment, stability and development followed by purse strings being tightened, managerial merry-go-rounds and decline mixed with delusional and unrealistic ambitions.
http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/aston-villa-fc/aston-villa-news/2012/04/26/doug-ellis-backing-under-fire-aston-villa-boss-alex-mcleish-97319-30841204/
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It is funny you should mention that, by that I mean Sir Doug OBE.
Where are all those Villa fans who cheered when he sold to Randy Lerner, "Proud history, bright future." My arse. It wouldn`t surprise me if Randy didn`t care if we went down, to off load the top earners while picking up parachute payments.
The board, club and fan base is in a right mess, still he got the commercial side up cash wise for a year.
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I suppose you were hissing when Lerner took over and then when he was splashing cash all over the shop and ploughing money into the stadium and whatnot?
Owshty bowsh.
Where are all those fans who weren't happy at the time, because I can't recall any.
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It wouldn`t surprise me if Randy didn`t care if we went down, to off load the top earners while picking up parachute payments.
Absolutely. After all, being relegated has made a fortune for so many long-term Premier League clubs hasn't it? Or not.
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Are we still Doug's club?
Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.
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Doug can't really say anything other than be supportive of the manager, though, can he? He's President Emeritus or whatever, and a repersentative of the club.
He can hardly come out and say "well, frankly, the football is mindbendingly shit and this fucker will get us relegated eventually" can he?
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But he hasn't come out with his stock phrase: 'this would never have happened in my day.'
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Doug can't really say anything other than be supportive of the manager, though, can he? He's President Emeritus or whatever, and a repersentative of the club.
He can hardly come out and say "well, frankly, the football is mindbendingly shit and this fucker will get us relegated eventually" can he?
I wish he would, that would be hilarious.
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Are we still Doug's club?
Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.
He's a been like a son to him.
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He's such a lying old sod, he'd have had McLeish out of here well before now.
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He's such a lying old sod, he'd have had McLeish out of here well before now.
To be fair to him, we also wouldn't have the mess when MON and Houllier left.
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But he hasn't come out with his stock phrase: 'this would never have happened in my day.'
It wouldn't have though.
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My, there's some historical revisionism going on here.
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Haven't we just had a lets romanticise about Sir Doug thread?
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
Absolutely nothing compared to hiring McLeish, as well you know.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
Absolutely nothing compared to hiring McLeish, as well you know.
In terms of fan reception, then no, but both still count as left field appointments that didn't work out.
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Doug would never have employed a bloke who was busy relegating Manchester City in order to relegate us the same season, would he?
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
didnt he hire mcneill who albeit relegated man city??
some amnesia going on here lately!
didnt we nearly get relegated with brian little too who doug appointed, and sir graham in the first season back in division 1 and with o'leary and with sir g mark 11.
everyone to a man wanted doug out so no romantacising and fawning over the good old days of doug ellis is logical in the slightest!!
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I'm sure a lot of people thought asking the manager of Shrewsbury to take over a team full of internationals and European champions was a good idea. Almost as good as forcing Ron Saunders out in 1979 would have been.
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You could argue that Villa only had one manager under Doug's reign, and they named a stand after him.
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You could argue that Villa only had one manager under Doug's reign, and he named a stand after him.
Fixed.
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You could argue that Villa only had one manager under Doug's reign, and he named a stand after him.
Fixed.
I think Doug would state that the EFA, UEFA and FIFA asked Villa to name the stand after him for his sterling work within English football (and inventing the bicycle kick).
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I'm assuming some people are talking about a different Doug Ellis? Either that or one of the greatest re-writes of history is underway.
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I suppose you were hissing when Lerner took over and then when he was splashing cash all over the shop and ploughing money into the stadium and whatnot?
Owshty bowsh.
Where are all those fans who weren't happy at the time, because I can't recall any.
I thought Doug was the perfect Chairman and Randy was the worst thing that could have happened to us...
In truth Doug was running us into the ground and without Randys millions we would have been relegated well before now.
I honestly bought into the Proud History Bright future times. Part of me is hoping that all this is part of some cunning plan devised by a chairman who is cunning as a fox acting cunningly. If Randy does let us down I will feel gutted.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
Absolutely nothing compared to hiring McLeish, as well you know.
In terms of fan reception, then no, but both still count as left field appointments that didn't work out.
Oh come on. There's a bit of a difference between employing a still popular ex manager (all be it past his best) than taking on one of the most lamentable managers in Small Heath's history who had just relegated them for the second time. It pales into insignificance compared to the Taylor appointment. A ridiculous appointment that the likes of Ellis and Stride would have laughed at.
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I thought Doug was the perfect Chairman and Randy was the worst thing that could have happened to us...
Are you taking the piss?
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
Absolutely nothing compared to hiring McLeish, as well you know.
In terms of fan reception, then no, but both still count as left field appointments that didn't work out.
Oh come on. There's a bit of a difference between employing a still popular ex manager (all be it past his best) than taking on one of the most lamentable managers in Small Heath's history who had just relegated them for the second time. It pales into insignificance compared to the Taylor appointment. A ridiculous appointment that the likes of Ellis and Stride would have laughed at.
If they had made this appointment they would have corrected the mistake before we finished up in this mess.
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Did I imagine all the relegation battles we had under Doug?
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
Absolutely nothing compared to hiring McLeish, as well you know.
In terms of fan reception, then no, but both still count as left field appointments that didn't work out.
Oh come on. There's a bit of a difference between employing a still popular ex manager (all be it past his best) than taking on one of the most lamentable managers in Small Heath's history who had just relegated them for the second time. It pales into insignificance compared to the Taylor appointment. A ridiculous appointment that the likes of Ellis and Stride would have laughed at.
If they had made this appointment they would have corrected the mistake before we finished up in this mess.
Having said that I think we would have been relegated before this so he might not have corrected his mistakes
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Did I imagine all the relegation battles we had under Doug?
I must have missed all the managers Ellis poached from Small Heath as well.
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Are you getting confused with this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Ellis)?
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Hands up who thought he'd hire the all but retired Sir Graham for the second time?
John Gregory did....and he was right.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Never. He also wouldnt have burdned the club with £220m in debts for mostly shite players.
Hindsight eh.
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Did I imagine all the relegation battles we had under Doug?
I must have missed all the managers Ellis poached from Small Heath as well.
So you don't mind us being in relegation battles as long as our manager wasn't signed from small heath?
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Did I imagine all the relegation battles we had under Doug?
I must have missed all the managers Ellis poached from Small Heath as well.
So you don't mind us being in relegation battles as long as our manager wasn't signed from small heath?
I don't want relegation battles, full stop. Only a naive fool who knows nothing about football in these parts would be stupid enough to employ a manager who has just notched up his second relegation with our most despised neighbours.
Ellis would never had done such a thing, and if Lerner had kept someone with a bit of Villa knowledge on board he would have told him so.
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Doug did however try and get rid of Ron Saunders, if only he'd won that power battle eh. No league title, no European Cup.
And we all knew Doug was doing the right thing employing Turner, McNeill, Dr. Jo and Graham Taylor MKII.
Just because Doug probably wouldn't have appointed AM isn't a reason to pine for him.
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Doug did however try and get rid of Ron Saunders, if only he'd won that power battle eh. No league title, no European Cup.
And we all knew Doug was doing the right thing employing Turner, McNeill, Dr. Jo and Graham Taylor MKII.
Just because Doug probably wouldn't have appointed AM isn't a reason to pine for him.
I think you're mistaking me as a fan of Ellis' entire time at Villa. You couldn't be further from the truth. I'll stand my by claim that he'd never touch the manager of Small Heath though. Especially the same manager who had just relegated them for the second time. The appointments of Turner, Taylor (second time around) and any other manager under Ellis pale into insignificance compared to the McLeish one. It has been an abomination.
By the way, stop saying that Ellis got rid of Saunders. I've heard with my own ears Saunders say it had nothing to do with him.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Never. He also wouldnt have burdned the club with £220m in debts for mostly shite players.
Hindsight eh.
Oh dear lord. Firstly, he didn't sign the players. Secondly, the club isn't burdened with anything.
Randy has put money in from his own assets.
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Some madness here. Doug was shite, Randy is proving to be very silly indeed.
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We'll probably stay up this season. Something we didn't do under Turner/McNeill. To me relegation is more of an abomination than staying up regardless of who is in charge.
I was talking about prior to winning the league. Short of it is Doug lost and left. Had he won and stayed then Ron would have gone. So no league title or European Cup.
The simple fact is Randy and Doug both made crap decisions at times.
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We'll probably stay up this season. Something we didn't do under Turner/McNeill. To me relegation is more of an abomination than staying up regardless of who is in charge.
I was talking about prior to winning the league. Short of it is Doug lost and left. Had he won and stayed then Ron would have gone. So no league title or European Cup.
The simple fact is Randy and Doug both made crap decisions at times.
Yes they both have. Ellis made loads. My only point is that he would not have touched McLeish with a barge pole and I stand by it.
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In a bizarre way I would admit to missing the Doug of old, if for no other reason that we came to know where to pitch our expectations. A memorable season every five or six years, with a flirt with relegation in the intervening trough.
The problem with the Lerner years to date is that we led to believe that we were going to, finally, be a creditable and consistent contender at the top end of the table. It was that raising of expectations that has made the last couple of seasons so unpalatable.
The other thing I'll say for Doug is, that for all his self-aggrandizement, I do think he knew which hands to shake and arses to lick amongst football's movers and shakers - and also how the seedier side of the "business" worked. That's something that Lerner, Faulkner, et al have failed to do - and it's costing us.
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Hang on, it was time for Sir Doug OBE to sell his club, and I was okay with whom he sold to so was Doug.
Lerner started off like a rocket and all was well, except for some fans who decided to blame Doug for everything while giving him no credit. He sold for £64m, which was low we where worth nearer £100m.
Since O`Neill did one, Lerner who still has no football knowledge on the board off loaded all the top six and good squad players.
We have gone back 10 years. I would like lerner to get a football man on board and sell some shares to another investor to bring some needed investment in.
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Hang on, it was time for Sir Doug OBE to sell his club, and I was okay with whom he sold to so was Doug.
Lerner started off like a rocket and all was well, except for some fans who decided to blame Doug for everything while giving him no credit. He sold for £64m, which was low we where worth nearer £100m.
Since O`Neill did one, Lerner who still has no football knowledge on the board off loaded all the top six and good squad players.
We have gone back 10 years. I would like lerner to get a football man on board and sell some shares to another investor to bring some needed investment in.
If we were worth 100m when Lerner bought us, Doug would have sold us for 100m.
Also, not all of us blamed Doug for everything and gave him no credit.
The rest, I'd agree with you on.
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Are we still Doug's club?
Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.
No, he'd just sack a European and Super cup winning manager and appoint two 3rd rate managers to replace him.
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I thought Doug was the perfect Chairman and Randy was the worst thing that could have happened to us...
Are you taking the piss?
Yes of course I am.
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I suppose you were hissing when Lerner took over and then when he was splashing cash all over the shop and ploughing money into the stadium and whatnot?
Owshty bowsh.
Where are all those fans who weren't happy at the time, because I can't recall any.
If you'd care to check my posts you'd find I've been critical of the Lerner regime since the day he compulsory purchased the shares.
I've always also thought that HDE in his day was part of something special at Villa but was way out of touch in the latter days of his tenure. Similarly I've maintained that RAL essentially had a few easy wins with the training ground, holte pub, etc but never got to grips with the key problems of scouting networks and increasing revenue to sustain a push at the Champions league.
As I've said in the past RAL is like HDE but without he odd trophy.
No revisionism here!
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I suppose you were hissing when Lerner took over and then when he was splashing cash all over the shop and ploughing money into the stadium and whatnot?
Owshty bowsh.
Where are all those fans who weren't happy at the time, because I can't recall any.
If you'd care to check my posts you'd find I've been critical of the Lerner regime since the day he compulsory purchased the shares.
I've always also thought that HDE in his day was part of something special at Villa but was way out of touch in the latter days of his tenure. Similarly I've maintained that RAL essentially had a few easy wins with the training ground, holte pub, etc but never got to grips with the key problems of scouting networks and increasing revenue to sustain a push at the Champions league.
As I've said in the past RAL is like HDE but without he odd trophy.
No revisionism here!
Top post this one.Where are we now?In the shite.Thank's to the Yanks.
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I suppose you were hissing when Lerner took over and then when he was splashing cash all over the shop and ploughing money into the stadium and whatnot?
Owshty bowsh.
Where are all those fans who weren't happy at the time, because I can't recall any.
If you'd care to check my posts you'd find I've been critical of the Lerner regime since the day he compulsory purchased the shares.
I've always also thought that HDE in his day was part of something special at Villa but was way out of touch in the latter days of his tenure. Similarly I've maintained that RAL essentially had a few easy wins with the training ground, holte pub, etc but never got to grips with the key problems of scouting networks and increasing revenue to sustain a push at the Champions league.
As I've said in the past RAL is like HDE but without he odd trophy.
No revisionism here!
Top post this one.Where are we now?In the shite.Thank's to the Yanks.
Where were we with Doug? Division three.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Never. He also wouldnt have burdned the club with £220m in debts for mostly shite players.
Hindsight eh.
Oh dear lord. Firstly, he didn't sign the players. Secondly, the club isn't burdened with anything.
Randy has put money in from his own assets.
The club is burdened with a huge amount of debt. The reason we've had to sell our best players, and not replace them is that clearly, the financial situation is a big problem.
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I thought we were paying it back, in addition to 'management' fees
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I thought we were paying it back, in addition to 'management' fees
Surely you mean interest?
Stating the obvious, Doug was paid good $$$s for the club so clearly its not his.
As an aside, I just noticed you guys change your mods more often than I change my undercrackers.
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Well we all know he would not have employed Mc Moron.One thing we can be sure of is Deadly would have had a public beheading wonder what he did with his axe.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Never. He also wouldnt have burdned the club with £220m in debts for mostly shite players.
Hindsight eh.
Oh dear lord. Firstly, he didn't sign the players. Secondly, the club isn't burdened with anything.
Randy has put money in from his own assets.
The club is burdened with a huge amount of debt. The reason we've had to sell our best players, and not replace them is that clearly, the financial situation is a big problem.
Yes, obviously, but the club itself not burdened. Randy took money from one asset to finance another. That's not burdened. There's no third party we owe money to, its not a PLC. Villa are owned and financed 100% by Randy Lerner and the Lerner Trust.
Its true that he wants Villa to finance itself as much as possible (which is prudent) but its also true that he could refinance it at any time.
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The club owes a huge amount of money to Randy.
That is still a debt, in the form of loans with a repayable date, and at an appropriate level of interest.
We're not in hock to Wonga.com or any other unscrupulous lender, you're right there, and he's not draining the club of money like Glazer is his, but it is still actual money that needs to be repaid at some point.
The fact the club is in a poor financial position is why we sold our best players and didn't replace them, is probably to a large degree why our manager is Alex McLeish, and is why we will be acquiring Bosmans this summer.
It is real money we owe, and it is having a tangible impact. It can't be ignored.
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I've always also thought that HDE in his day was part of something special at Villa
His "day" was a long, long time ago.
One thing that Dougie got very right was the appointment of people around him who could operate in the footballing world. But some of his managerial choices were dodgy to say the least.
In the main he was a conniving old git who took lots of money out of the club and put very little in.
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I've always also thought that HDE in his day was part of something special at Villa
His "day" was a long, long time ago.
One thing that Dougie got very right was the appointment of people around him who could operate in the footballing world. But some of his managerial choices were dodgy to say the least.
In the main he was a conniving old git who took lots of money out of the club and put very little in.
Agreed. His 'day' was indeed a long time ago and I recognised this by saying that at the end of his tenure he was way out of touch.
The thrust of my argument was an aged Doug and an out of touch Lerner are equally flawed.
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I suppose you were hissing when Lerner took over and then when he was splashing cash all over the shop and ploughing money into the stadium and whatnot?
Owshty bowsh.
Where are all those fans who weren't happy at the time, because I can't recall any.
If you'd care to check my posts you'd find I've been critical of the Lerner regime since the day he compulsory purchased the shares.
I've always also thought that HDE in his day was part of something special at Villa but was way out of touch in the latter days of his tenure. Similarly I've maintained that RAL essentially had a few easy wins with the training ground, holte pub, etc but never got to grips with the key problems of scouting networks and increasing revenue to sustain a push at the Champions league.
As I've said in the past RAL is like HDE but without he odd trophy.
No revisionism here!
Top post this one.Where are we now?In the shite.Thank's to the Yanks.
Where were we with Doug? Division three.
I don't think it's revisionism to recognise that Doug was part of the rebirth of Villa in the late '60s.
Maybe we did end up in Division 3 as part of that process, but we also ended up with arguably the most successful period of the club's history.
I think most people recognise Doug is the ultimate self publicist and we need to remain mindful of the fact that he spins history. But we can't deny his contribution.
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Hands up who thinks Ellis would have employed the manager who just relegated Small Heath for the second time.
Never. He also wouldnt have burdned the club with £220m in debts for mostly shite players.
Hindsight eh.
Oh dear lord. Firstly, he didn't sign the players. Secondly, the club isn't burdened with anything.
Randy has put money in from his own assets.
The club is burdened with a huge amount of debt. The reason we've had to sell our best players, and not replace them is that clearly, the financial situation is a big problem.
Yes, obviously, but the club itself not burdened. Randy took money from one asset to finance another. That's not burdened. There's no third party we owe money to, its not a PLC. Villa are owned and financed 100% by Randy Lerner and the Lerner Trust.
Its true that he wants Villa to finance itself as much as possible (which is prudent) but its also true that he could refinance it at any time.
You need to look at the accounts again.
At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m. Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking. Against this we had debtors of £20m. THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.
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The club owes a huge amount of money to Randy.
That is still a debt, in the form of loans with a repayable date, and at an appropriate level of interest.
We're not in hock to Wonga.com or any other unscrupulous lender, you're right there, and he's not draining the club of money like Glazer is his, but it is still actual money that needs to be repaid at some point.
The fact the club is in a poor financial position is why we sold our best players and didn't replace them, is probably to a large degree why our manager is Alex McLeish, and is why we will be acquiring Bosmans this summer.
It is real money we owe, and it is having a tangible impact. It can't be ignored.
It's not being ignored. But I dont see any point in worrying about how much money Randy owes himself.
The thought is actually quite ridiculous.
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At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m. Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking. Against this we had debtors of £20m. THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.
So who is the other £60m owed to then?
As I understand it we owe that to the Lerner family trust, so although not Randy or our parent company, it is still part of the same larger whole?
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At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m. Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking. Against this we had debtors of £20m. THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.
So who is the other £60m owed to then?
As I understand it we owe that to the Lerner family trust, so although not Randy or our parent company, it is still part of the same larger whole?
£11m bank loans
£20m trade creditors
£9m tax
£21m accruals
None of that is owed to anything to do with Lerner.
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At May 2011, our creditors due in less than a year were £85m. Only £25m of this was owed to the parent undertaking. Against this we had debtors of £20m. THAT is a burden, and mean that any pumped is would be to keep the club in business, not investing in new assets.
So who is the other £60m owed to then?
As I understand it we owe that to the Lerner family trust, so although not Randy or our parent company, it is still part of the same larger whole?
£11m bank loans
£20m trade creditors
£9m tax
£21m accruals
None of that is owed to anything to do with Lerner.
Fair enough then.
However, as this is to May 2011 I'd imagine the circa £20m transfer profit we made last summer has helped offset this somewhat.
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As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.
The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.
But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.
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As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.
The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.
But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.
And the fact that he hasn't for some time, while all the time selling off our better players and employing dross like McLeish leads you to think that he will this summer? As for trusting him to manage the business properly, that's a great big gnasher style *facepalm*.
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If I might say so some very intelligent comments and views re Doug/Randy on this thread. This is my take on these gentlemen.
Doug You had to be around in 1968/69 when Doug breezed into the club with his Roller and his buisness acumen.He brought in a manager who at that time was the equivilant of Mourinho in Tommy Docherty and the crowds came back. Doug and Pat Matthews saved this club from going under..and that is a cold hard fact. That is why is he so popular with older supporters.
Like all of us he has made lots of mistakes but never got the club in any debt during his tenure as far as I am aware.
On the debit side he upset everybody (including his own son Peter) the highlight being when he reached out across the aisle to glad hand a furious Abramovich as he was storming out of the ground just as we were in the process of taking three points off Chelsea. Absolutely brilliant timing on Dougs part and he knew exactly what he was doing!
He was also responsible for removing the historic Trinity Road stand one of the magificent structures in football and for that evil act he deserves any ammount of abuse he got towards the end of his reign.
But along with Frederick Rinder he remains one of the greats in Aston Villas history.
Randy Lerner. At one stage he had achieved god like status at Villa Park. He could do no wrong. His problem was letting a manager MON have control of almost everything involved with Aston Villa and hoping he would get it right.
Well MON came close but like Devon Loch just failed to get over the line and thats when Mr Lerner decided to act and stop the
drain on his resources. Mr Faulkner became an important figure in his plan. For anybody who has worked in city centre offices in the last twenty years his type abound. A Gus Hedges type, fairly young with very little knowledge of the game a former Relationship Manager groan! apparently he had an input into the choice of the current manager. That is shocking but
as Randy doesnt appear to have an in depth knowledge of our game at the top level perhaps it isnt!
If we take it that Alex McCleish moves on in the summer and a manager of the calibre of Lambert is put in suddenly Randys
credit rating will shoot up again with the Villa faithful.We should with any luck still be in the top division next season and have perhaps something to look forward to.
To sum up Doug for periods of time did an excellent job at the helm. Randy could yet surprise us during the summer months
with his plans for the clubs future.
And no Doug you did not invent the bicycle kick that was Leonidas. You old rogue!!
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As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.
The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.
But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.
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Are we still Doug's club?
Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.
No, he'd just sack a European and Super cup winning manager and appoint two 3rd rate managers to replace him.
I hate Ellis's guts for using our club as his own personal toy . However to condemn him for the exit of Saunders would be factually incorrect. Saunders left of his own accord on a point of principal. The Chairman at the time wished to cancel Saunders rolling contract and replace it with a fixed term appointment. Saunders felt aggrieved at this and walked out. The Chairman at the time was Ronald Bendall.However I do believe if Ellis had retained control prior to this then in all probability Saunders would have left before we even entered our golden era.
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Are we still Doug's club?
Clearly not...even at his most senile, Doug would never have appointed McLeish.
No, he'd just sack a European and Super cup winning manager and appoint two 3rd rate managers to replace him.
I hate Ellis's guts for using our club as his own personal toy . However to condemn him for the exit of Saunders would be factually incorrect. Saunders left of his own accord on a point of principal. The Chairman at the time wished to cancel Saunders rolling contract and replace it with a fixed term appointment. Saunders felt aggrieved at this and walked out. The Chairman at the time was Ronald Bendall.However I do believe if Ellis had retained control prior to this then in all probability Saunders would have left before we even entered our golden era.
The manager referred to here is Tony Barton.
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Maybe we did end up in Division 3 as part of that process, but we also ended up with arguably the most successful period of the club's history.
Once he'd left.
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As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.
The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.
But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.
And the fact that he hasn't for some time, while all the time selling off our better players and employing dross like McLeish leads you to think that he will this summer? As for trusting him to manage the business properly, that's a great big gnasher style *facepalm*.
Well, I'm not saying he's handled footballing matters well at all. In fact I'm quite often critcal in that regard.
But yes, I'm affraid I'll have to trust a business, with all its highly qualified staff, that has made billions out of banking to handle its own banking affairs Risso, yes. If you know of another way a club like Villa could bankroll a major rebuilding of the squad and facilities please furnish us with your greatness.
He has proven he is willing to plough significant money in. This is a fact. The last year of reigning the spending in is no more typical than the previous years of spending. In fact less so.
I dont know why my points are being so misunderstood. Let me clarify my position again. Randy CAN spend if he wants to. Those who are saying he can not are incorrect. As for whether he will remains to be seen. Nobody, including yourself, can say either way outside of speculation.
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As have record commercial deals and whatnot. I'm really not bothered how Randy moves the money around, that's up to him.
The club is owned by a multi billion dollar business (Lerner family trusts). If it wants to wipe out/pay off any debts, it can. Nobody is saying it's ideal but it's manageable. I have to trust a business used to dealing with credit/banking and so on to manage its affairs properly.
But the point, the only point I'm bothered about, is that Randy can invest more money in the summer if he wants to.
And the fact that he hasn't for some time, while all the time selling off our better players and employing dross like McLeish leads you to think that he will this summer? As for trusting him to manage the business properly, that's a great big gnasher style *facepalm*.
Well, I'm not saying he's handled footballing matters well at all. In fact I'm quite often critcal in that regard.
But yes, I'm affraid I'll have to trust a business, with all its highly qualified staff, that has made billions out of banking to handle its own banking affairs Risso, yes. If you know of another way a club like Villa could bankroll a major rebuilding of the squad and facilities please furnish us with your greatness.
He has proven he is willing to plough significant money in. This is a fact. The last year of reigning the spending in is no more typical than the previous years of spending. In fact less so.
I dont know why my points are being so misunderstood. Let me clarify my position again. Randy CAN spend if he wants to. Those who are saying he can not are incorrect. As for whether he will remains to be seen. Nobody, including yourself, can say either way outside of speculation.
No. You said that the only people we owe money to is Lerner himself, and that just isn't true, as I have pointed out. This means that any money he puts into the club is first of all going to have to go towards paying the bills. That much at least, is a fact.
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Risso, you're about a year and a bit behind the times in terms of Villa's finances. That much is a fact.
That's not a dig or anything but a few things have happened since then.
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Risso, you're about a year and a bit behind the times in terms of Villa's finances. That much is a fact.
That's not a dig or anything but a few things have happened since then.
No I am not. The last accounts were made up to 31 May 2011. Today is the first day of May. Since then, we have made about an £18m cash profit on player purchases, but I do not think that that is enough to improve our finances sufficiently that Lerner will spend big this summer. Lerner stuck another £10m in December 2011 and as I'm sure you noticed, we didn't use that to buy any players in January, which is my point.
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Maybe we did end up in Division 3 as part of that process, but we also ended up with arguably the most successful period of the club's history.
Once he'd left.
Are you saying he had no positive role in bringing about the success in the early '80s?
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I never expected him to spend in January. I'm not sure who did..?
But, for instance, added to the transfer profit from last season and the cash Randy injected we have signed commercial deals worth in the region of £35m and have slashed the salary situation dramatically (which I'm told is the only real financial concern they had and even that was a value issue). I've also heard that Randy's own situation has improved somewhat with regards to the Bank of America stock.
Bear in mind I would be as skeptical as you are with regards to any likely spending this summer had I not been privy to a conversation or two with people (in my case a person) far closer to the matter and I'm not the only person on this site to have that conversation either.
I know you'll just come back with "ITK bollocks" but I really dont care. For what it's worth, I'm still of the mind that I'll "believe it when I see it". But without getting entrenched in this any more than I wish to (I find finance about as intriguing and entertaining as listening to Oasis) my point is simply that Randy can spend again if he wishes to.
And let's face it. Its not really an option is it? He has to.
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Maybe we did end up in Division 3 as part of that process, but we also ended up with arguably the most successful period of the club's history.
Once he'd left.
Are you saying he had no positive role in bringing about the success in the early '80s?
He had some, but as early as 1975 he was no longer chairman. He can't claim a great deal of the credit, particularly since the one indisputable fact is that he wanted to get rid of the man who can claim most of the credit.
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I never expected him to spend in January. I'm not sure who did..?
But, for instance, added to the transfer profit from last season and the cash Randy injected we have signed commercial deals worth in the region of £35m and have slashed the salary situation dramatically (which I'm told is the only real financial concern they had and even that was a value issue). I've also heard that Randy's own situation has improved somewhat with regards to the Bank of America stock.
Bear in mind I would be as skeptical as you are with regards to any likely spending this summer had I not been privy to a conversation or two with people (in my case a person) far closer to the matter and I'm not the only person on this site to have that conversation either.
I know you'll just come back with "ITK bollocks" but I really dont care. For what it's worth, I'm still of the mind that I'll "believe it when I see it". But without getting entrenched in this any more than I wish to (I find finance about as intriguing and entertaining as listening to Oasis) my point is simply that Randy can spend again if he wishes to.
And let's face it. Its not really an option is it? He has to.
I have no ITK element to it at all, but I do expect some spending this summer. I agree that things will have shifted since May 2011 and we're probably in a bit of a better situation financially, but I think of it like January 2011 when he bought Bent because we NEEDED him. It's similar now where regardless of the manager we NEED to invest in the squad again.
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Well, the 2012 accounts will have the compensation paid to Blues, and assuming McLeish does get potted, then there'll be his pay off as well. Then there's also the big drop in crowds and fall in prize money via a league finish, so any improvement in the financial situation will be offset by another load of comensation, and falling income.
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Well, the 2012 accounts will have the compensation paid to Blues, and assuming McLeish does get potted, then there'll be his pay off as well. Then there's also the big drop in crowds and fall in prize money via a league finish, so any improvement in the financial situation will be offset by another load of comensation, and falling income.
This is still the part that bugs me. I have mentioned before that we are looking at circa £15 million lost paying compensation to MON, Houllier, the Blues for poaching the man we have at the helm now, and the inevitable money we will have to pay out if/when we remove him.
Who at the club is going to take responsibility for these (last three) disastrous decisions.
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Well, the 2012 accounts will have the compensation paid to Blues, and assuming McLeish does get potted, then there'll be his pay off as well. Then there's also the big drop in crowds and fall in prize money via a league finish, so any improvement in the financial situation will be offset by another load of comensation, and falling income.
This is still the part that bugs me. I have mentioned before that we are looking at circa £15 million lost paying compensation to MON, Houllier, the Blues for poaching the man we have at the helm now, and the inevitable money we will have to pay out if/when we remove him.
Who at the club is going to take responsibility for these (last three) disastrous decisions.
It'll be more than that. O'Neill and Houllier were £12m already.
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Risso, you're about a year and a bit behind the times in terms of Villa's finances. That much is a fact.
That's not a dig or anything but a few things have happened since then.
The debt has increased?
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No.
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Well, the 2012 accounts will have the compensation paid to Blues, and assuming McLeish does get potted, then there'll be his pay off as well. Then there's also the big drop in crowds and fall in prize money via a league finish, so any improvement in the financial situation will be offset by another load of comensation, and falling income.
This is still the part that bugs me. I have mentioned before that we are looking at circa £15 million lost paying compensation to MON, Houllier, the Blues for poaching the man we have at the helm now, and the inevitable money we will have to pay out if/when we remove him.
Who at the club is going to take responsibility for these (last three) disastrous decisions.
It'll be more than that. O'Neill and Houllier were £12m already.
That's three Alan Hutton's worth of players we've missed out on.