AVFC statement - McLeish sacked.

[paul_e]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

Professional footballers don't get to premiership level if they can't pass to a reasonable level.  Most of these players were here towards the end of last season where we started to play some good passing football.  This season we've completely abandoned a passing game, at which point it becomes irrelevant whether the players are capable or not.

As for the losing 5-0 there a few years back, that was to a liverpool side who were in the middle of a 20(I think) match unbeaten run and were pushing for the title, it's no comparison and offers no value to the conversation.

The facts are we scored, then we backed off and tried (valiantly) to keep a clean sheet.  you can't fault the players massively as we batteld well and nearly pulled it off but you do have to question the sense behind either choosing to do that or not doing anything to stop it.

well thats a load of crap really. the likes of Dunne, Warnock collins etc... weren't passing like Barcelona under MON, they didn't need to - it was hoof or give it to someone who could like milner or young.. It works to an extent if you have good  dominant midfielders,- we haven't.

Stop bringing it back to mon, it's getting dull.  My point is, to make it as a professional footballer, you have to have a level of fitness and skill, it doesn't need to be exceptional but you can't seriously think the premier league is full of players who can't pass a ball 10-15 yards to feet if the training and tactics encourage them to do so.  I'm not asking for Barcelona but I'm not willing to settle for wimbledon.

we saw under Houllier they couldn't didn't we?

As said, we started to play some good football  towards the end of last season where we were passing better and the man on the ball had better options.  That's why I hoped we'd keep GH in some fashion and continue the work he'd started, as well as getting rid of the players that had given him so much shit over the season (which was over the fitness training levels as I understand it, not the technical side of things).

[paul_e]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

Well, there's no doubt that the manager should have played the kids in games earlier this season, certainly ahead of the underperforming seniors. However, for some of these players, I'm not calling them kids anymore - Bannan 21, Lichaj 22, Herd 23, these aren't kids anymore. Granted, Weimann's 20 and Gardner 19, they're young, but others have been underplayed and should just be thought of as first team contenders at this stage.

well thats a good point however the percieved wisdom is you don't stick youth players in when a team is doing bad as they tend to falter and lose confidence. Perhaps he should have blooded more earlier but i can't say i'm happy with us selecting 7 in what is in all but name a relegation battle. I'm not sure what else he could do though given our numbers

He's been blooding them since the first game of the season as subs. With Herd and Bannan starting games by early September. As was Delph.

I don't get how he could have bloodied them earlier without sticking a bunch straight into the first team from the off.

Why was Baker's first match of the season against Chelsea despite Dunne and Collins being poor for a long period?

More importantly how many times has he picked one of the younger players when he had a choice between them and an (often underperforming) senior player?

[Greg N'Ash]

Dunne came out this season and said they totally ignored GH's tactics after he was ill and reverted to type, yes we won some games under GMac but suddenly a passing side? not on your nelly. If Houllier had stayed all the old guard would have been gone because when it comes down to it, they're not very good.

[PeterWithesShin]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

Well, there's no doubt that the manager should have played the kids in games earlier this season, certainly ahead of the underperforming seniors. However, for some of these players, I'm not calling them kids anymore - Bannan 21, Lichaj 22, Herd 23, these aren't kids anymore. Granted, Weimann's 20 and Gardner 19, they're young, but others have been underplayed and should just be thought of as first team contenders at this stage.

well thats a good point however the percieved wisdom is you don't stick youth players in when a team is doing bad as they tend to falter and lose confidence. Perhaps he should have blooded more earlier but i can't say i'm happy with us selecting 7 in what is in all but name a relegation battle. I'm not sure what else he could do though given our numbers

He's been blooding them since the first game of the season as subs. With Herd and Bannan starting games by early September. As was Delph.

I don't get how he could have bloodied them earlier without sticking a bunch straight into the first team from the off.

Why was Baker's first match of the season against Chelsea despite Dunne and Collins being poor for a long period?

More importantly how many times has he picked one of the younger players when he had a choice between them and an (often underperforming) senior player?

Because Baker hasn't really looked good enough to get a game but injuries gave no option? Now he has the chance to do a Herd and not be that highly rated but when injuries dictate gets given the chance and it's taken.

Quite a few times. When they've earned the shirt they've generally kept it. 

[Brend'Watkins]

Dunne came out this season and said they totally ignored GH's tactics after he was ill and reverted to type, yes we won some games under GMac but suddenly a passing side? not on your nelly. If Houllier had stayed all the old guard would have been gone because when it comes down to it, they're not very good.

Agree, we're not great but with the kids and reserves there seems to be a bit of spirit there.  Add a bit more quality in defence and the middle and we'd be a decent  team.  But the old guard do need to go.  They think they're bigger than the club and manager which has been the case for the last 3 or more seasons and as much to do with the mess we're as GH / A Mc.

[JUAN PABLO]

Although the youngsters deserve credit it was a classic McLeish performance today, backs to the wall, desperate defending, hope to nick a goal and avoid conceding too many.  This time it worked,  to an extent at least, in part due to some good luck, in part due to some poor Liverpool finishing, in part due to a brave battling performance.  But as Paulie said it doesn't work week in week out and McLeish has already proved that with his dreadful Blues teams and too often with us.  How he managed to spawn a cup win playing like that I'll never know.  If he stays, I think we can "look forward" to a lot more of the same, whoever he signs.

spot on

[citizenDJ]

Although the youngsters deserve credit it was a classic McLeish performance today, backs to the wall, desperate defending, hope to nick a goal and avoid conceding too many.  This time it worked,  to an extent at least, in part due to some good luck, in part due to some poor Liverpool finishing, in part due to a brave battling performance.  But as Paulie said it doesn't work week in week out and McLeish has already proved that with his dreadful Blues teams and too often with us.  How he managed to spawn a cup win playing like that I'll never know.  If he stays, I think we can "look forward" to a lot more of the same, whoever he signs.

spot on

I'm inclined to agree with this, sadly. But, if (and it's a big if, based on nothing more than Mr Collymore's Tweet which may well have been simply to drum up interest in his radio show) he is going to have decent money to spend in the summer, then maybe there is a glimmer of hope.

I don't think for a second that McLeish is likely to change his old approach, but perhaps with the right signings he could do what he does more effectively.

For example, a couple of players who can improve our ability to actually keep the ball would dramatically improve our chances (I know that's hardly news!) of seeing out games. A central defender with a modicum of composure to complement the more 'last ditch' style offered by Cuellar or Collins would do the same. A full-back or two with an ounce of positional sense, too.
Just a couple of key signings, along with the young players coming through who can deputise and provide pretty decent squad cover, could make a big difference.

Again, I'm not say that the football would be drastically more enjoyable to watch, but we would be better equipped to make the most of the way we do play. With Ireland, Gabby, N'Zogbia and Bent we should be able to snatch a goal, and with better posession we might be more likely to hold out for the 1-0 win.

It's not much, and I'm not too optimistic, but it's a possibility.

[PaulWinch again]

Yesterday's result needs to be put in context, it was a useful point when combined with the results of the teams below us. However this is a Liverpool side who had lost 7 out of 8, including to Wigan at home. They are not a good side and it sounds like we went there and desperately hung on for the most of the game. He still definitely needs to go and we need a progressive optimistic manager who can give us hope that we're going somewhere.

[brian green]

As somebody very insightful said on the match thread yesterday how we need a manager with a modern football ideology.

Going to a football match involving a team managed by Alex McLeish is the football equivalent of going to a pole dancing club and staring at the barmaid.

[lukey27]

I share many of the reservations about Mcleish that everyone else does but I can't criticise him for the way he's set the team up for the last few weeks. We started this season with a very light squad anyway, five central midfielders of any experience in Jenas, Delph, Petrov, Clark and Ireland. Two recognised wide men in N'Zogbia and Albrighton and yesterday we were without 6 of them. Coupled with our £20 mill striker and two experienced centre backs out we're literally down to the scraps.

Many of our problems centre around us not being able to keep possession and build from the middle of the park. Yes Mcleish doesn't help himself much of the time and seemingly reverts to type but he's hampered to a certain extent with what he has to work with at the moment.

[Ad@m]

Yes Mcleish doesn't help himself much of the time and seemingly reverts to type but he's hampered to a certain extent with what he has to work with at the moment.

At the moment being the key to that. What's his excuse for the majority of the season when those players were available?

[pauliewalnuts]

Yes Mcleish doesn't help himself much of the time and seemingly reverts to type but he's hampered to a certain extent with what he has to work with at the moment.

At the moment being the key to that. What's his excuse for the majority of the season when those players were available?

Indeed.

All those matches where we had largely no injury problems, but our strikers ambled around aimlessly, such was the near total lack of attacking intent.

[PaulWinch again]

Yes Mcleish doesn't help himself much of the time and seemingly reverts to type but he's hampered to a certain extent with what he has to work with at the moment.

At the moment being the key to that. What's his excuse for the majority of the season when those players were available?

Indeed.

All those matches where we had largely no injury problems, but our strikers ambled around aimlessly, such was the near total lack of attacking intent.

Yep so he gets no credit from me. Also like I said that Liverpool side is desperately average and they completely dominated us. He has to go and we need to get a manager who has the courage to attack and the know how of how to do it.

[brian green]

No credit from me either.

The big difference in recent weeks in my opinion is that the influx of young new players has brought a degree of team spirit totally missing in the first three quarters of the season.   Our young players know each other, they are probably good mates and they play for the team and each other.

The senior players who, as an earlier poster said would have been outed by Houllier, have soured the dressing room and the training ground with their player power muscle flexing generating in the process a team who gave the impression of hating each other's guts

[Dave Clark Five]

Plenty of credit from me. The young players have been given more chance under McLeish than ever before and it is slowly starting to pay off. McLeish assembled his first team coaching team to give some continuity with the reserves. A happy squad will bring success. Players like Collins, Hutton and Warnock need a bit of credit as well. They are prepared to get stuck in and you can't fault them for that.