AVFC statement - McLeish sacked.

[PeterWithesShin]

I'm no fan of AM, but getting a point in a game where few thought we'd get anything other than a battering and still slaughtering him seems a tad OTT to me. 

The point we took is the most important thing by far. I'd happily watch us spend every minute of every match shitting ourselves as the ball pinged off the woodwork of our goal if it meant we stayed up.

However, people are hardly going to massively re-evaluate their opinion of him based on today. He's not getting slaughtered for today, either, he's getting discussed in the negative terms he's been discussed all season, which isn't massively surprising.

I don't expect people to start fluffing him after today, i'm certainly not going to, but considering the sides we've had to put out the past 2 games a smidgen of credit for how we've performed is only fair. We may have been under the cosh today, but we showed heart on the pitch to get that point.

[pauliewalnuts]

I'm no fan of AM, but getting a point in a game where few thought we'd get anything other than a battering and still slaughtering him seems a tad OTT to me. 

The point we took is the most important thing by far. I'd happily watch us spend every minute of every match shitting ourselves as the ball pinged off the woodwork of our goal if it meant we stayed up.

However, people are hardly going to massively re-evaluate their opinion of him based on today. He's not getting slaughtered for today, either, he's getting discussed in the negative terms he's been discussed all season, which isn't massively surprising.

I don't expect people to start fluffing him after today, i'm certainly not going to, but considering the sides we've had to put out the past 2 games a smidgen of credit for how we've performed is only fair. We may have been under the cosh today, but we showed heart on the pitch to get that point.

True, and that is something pretty much everyone has remarked on.

[Greg N'Ash]

I still don't know what he was supposed to do given the team he had. Go all out attacking? as i said on another thread, a very very much better set of villa players got mullered there 5-0 not that long ago, and that one hardly took the game to liverpool either

[Monty]

I still don't know what he was supposed to do given the team he had. Go all out attacking? as i said on another thread, a very very much better set of villa players got mullered there 5-0 not that long ago, and that one hardly took the game to liverpool either

No Greg, but the total lack of possession retention is a season-long problem at least which, unlike under GH last season, has not even shown tentative signs of improvement (cue Greg bringing up last season's capitulation at Liverpool). Retaining possession, as shown by Swansea's 'goals conceded' column, is a better defensive tactic than our 'sit back and hope' tactic.

[Greg N'Ash]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

[Monty]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

The players are used to playing that style from the youth and reserve teams though. They're trained in that, and training is all important. Bannan, Gardner, and add in Ireland as well, we have some very good technical players who need only encouragement and training to at least try and play this way (I use Herd as a good example - clearly not the most technically gifted, but seems trained to play decent, short passing football, with the odd play-spreading ball). What's letting them down are systems and, I'd wager, lack of effective training.

[Greg N'Ash]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

[paul_e]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

Professional footballers don't get to premiership level if they can't pass to a reasonable level.  Most of these players were here towards the end of last season where we started to play some good passing football.  This season we've completely abandoned a passing game, at which point it becomes irrelevant whether the players are capable or not.

As for the losing 5-0 there a few years back, that was to a liverpool side who were in the middle of a 20(I think) match unbeaten run and were pushing for the title, it's no comparison and offers no value to the conversation.

The facts are we scored, then we backed off and tried (valiantly) to keep a clean sheet.  you can't fault the players massively as we batteld well and nearly pulled it off but you do have to question the sense behind either choosing to do that or not doing anything to stop it.

[Monty]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

Well, there's no doubt that the manager should have played the kids in games earlier this season, certainly ahead of the underperforming seniors. However, for some of these players, I'm not calling them kids anymore - Bannan 21, Lichaj 22, Herd 23, these aren't kids anymore. Granted, Weimann's 20 and Gardner 19, they're young, but others have been underplayed and should just be thought of as first team contenders at this stage.

[Greg N'Ash]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

Professional footballers don't get to premiership level if they can't pass to a reasonable level.  Most of these players were here towards the end of last season where we started to play some good passing football.  This season we've completely abandoned a passing game, at which point it becomes irrelevant whether the players are capable or not.

As for the losing 5-0 there a few years back, that was to a liverpool side who were in the middle of a 20(I think) match unbeaten run and were pushing for the title, it's no comparison and offers no value to the conversation.

The facts are we scored, then we backed off and tried (valiantly) to keep a clean sheet.  you can't fault the players massively as we batteld well and nearly pulled it off but you do have to question the sense behind either choosing to do that or not doing anything to stop it.

well thats a load of crap really. the likes of Dunne, Warnock collins etc... weren't passing like Barcelona under MON, they didn't need to - it was hoof or give it to someone who could like milner or young.. It works to an extent if you have good  dominant midfielders,- we haven't.

[paul_e]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

Professional footballers don't get to premiership level if they can't pass to a reasonable level.  Most of these players were here towards the end of last season where we started to play some good passing football.  This season we've completely abandoned a passing game, at which point it becomes irrelevant whether the players are capable or not.

As for the losing 5-0 there a few years back, that was to a liverpool side who were in the middle of a 20(I think) match unbeaten run and were pushing for the title, it's no comparison and offers no value to the conversation.

The facts are we scored, then we backed off and tried (valiantly) to keep a clean sheet.  you can't fault the players massively as we batteld well and nearly pulled it off but you do have to question the sense behind either choosing to do that or not doing anything to stop it.

well thats a load of crap really. the likes of Dunne, Warnock collins etc... weren't passing like Barcelona under MON, they didn't need to - it was hoof or give it to someone who could like milner or young.. It works to an extent if you have good  dominant midfielders,- we haven't.

Stop bringing it back to mon, it's getting dull.  My point is, to make it as a professional footballer, you have to have a level of fitness and skill, it doesn't need to be exceptional but you can't seriously think the premier league is full of players who can't pass a ball 10-15 yards to feet if the training and tactics encourage them to do so.  I'm not asking for Barcelona but I'm not willing to settle for wimbledon.

[PeterWithesShin]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

Well, there's no doubt that the manager should have played the kids in games earlier this season, certainly ahead of the underperforming seniors. However, for some of these players, I'm not calling them kids anymore - Bannan 21, Lichaj 22, Herd 23, these aren't kids anymore. Granted, Weimann's 20 and Gardner 19, they're young, but others have been underplayed and should just be thought of as first team contenders at this stage.

I think AM has given most of the kids a fair crack of the whip this season.

Herd played a lot until he was injured and is back in. Likewise Clark was pretty regular until his injury. Bannan and Albrighton have had chances and not really done enough to warrant many more games than they've had. Lichaj was injured most of the season.

I'd like to see GG and Weimann start a few more games before the end of the season.

[Greg N'Ash]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

Well, there's no doubt that the manager should have played the kids in games earlier this season, certainly ahead of the underperforming seniors. However, for some of these players, I'm not calling them kids anymore - Bannan 21, Lichaj 22, Herd 23, these aren't kids anymore. Granted, Weimann's 20 and Gardner 19, they're young, but others have been underplayed and should just be thought of as first team contenders at this stage.

well thats a good point however the percieved wisdom is you don't stick youth players in when a team is doing bad as they tend to falter and lose confidence. Perhaps he should have blooded more earlier but i can't say i'm happy with us selecting 7 in what is in all but name a relegation battle. I'm not sure what else he could do though given our numbers

[Greg N'Ash]

I agree on that Monty, buts its been a problem ever since we lost the better players in midfield. Take out Milner, Young, Downing etc. and we're not that good a passing side unfortuntely

Professional footballers don't get to premiership level if they can't pass to a reasonable level.  Most of these players were here towards the end of last season where we started to play some good passing football.  This season we've completely abandoned a passing game, at which point it becomes irrelevant whether the players are capable or not.

As for the losing 5-0 there a few years back, that was to a liverpool side who were in the middle of a 20(I think) match unbeaten run and were pushing for the title, it's no comparison and offers no value to the conversation.

The facts are we scored, then we backed off and tried (valiantly) to keep a clean sheet.  you can't fault the players massively as we batteld well and nearly pulled it off but you do have to question the sense behind either choosing to do that or not doing anything to stop it.

well thats a load of crap really. the likes of Dunne, Warnock collins etc... weren't passing like Barcelona under MON, they didn't need to - it was hoof or give it to someone who could like milner or young.. It works to an extent if you have good  dominant midfielders,- we haven't.

Stop bringing it back to mon, it's getting dull.  My point is, to make it as a professional footballer, you have to have a level of fitness and skill, it doesn't need to be exceptional but you can't seriously think the premier league is full of players who can't pass a ball 10-15 yards to feet if the training and tactics encourage them to do so.  I'm not asking for Barcelona but I'm not willing to settle for wimbledon.

we saw under Houllier they couldn't didn't we?

[PeterWithesShin]

well now you're talking about unproven players who could go either way. To me at least, the kids aren't ready and its going to be like this for the foreseable future. One week they put in a performance the next they go the other way. Once they get some consistency then we can decide if they can pass their way around liverpool's side

Well, there's no doubt that the manager should have played the kids in games earlier this season, certainly ahead of the underperforming seniors. However, for some of these players, I'm not calling them kids anymore - Bannan 21, Lichaj 22, Herd 23, these aren't kids anymore. Granted, Weimann's 20 and Gardner 19, they're young, but others have been underplayed and should just be thought of as first team contenders at this stage.

well thats a good point however the percieved wisdom is you don't stick youth players in when a team is doing bad as they tend to falter and lose confidence. Perhaps he should have blooded more earlier but i can't say i'm happy with us selecting 7 in what is in all but name a relegation battle. I'm not sure what else he could do though given our numbers

He's been blooding them since the first game of the season as subs. With Herd and Bannan starting games by early September. As was Delph.

I don't get how he could have bloodied them earlier without sticking a bunch straight into the first team from the off.