Safe standing - update

[DB]

The only reason I can see for going back to standing is for the older generation (myslef included) who remember what is was like in the Holte / Kop / Stretford end etc... and what the old days back. What is the practical reason? Will it be cheaper? Football seems to be the only part of life where some people want to stand rather than sit.

 

[Ad@m]

The trouble is, whether Margaret Aspinall is right or wrong standing areas would require a law change in England and any politician who attempted it would be dealing with the Margaret Aspinalls of this world and the press who would obviously jump on something like this.

The other main obstacles is that the finances just don't stack up.  Supporters of this idea assume that standing areas would be cheaper than seating areas.  Why would they?  The clubs set the prices and what's their incentive for reducing prices?  They would have to make a significant investment first of all in converting seating areas which they would want to recoup somehow.  The standard argument is then that you would get more fans going if prices were cheaper.  Well, as has been proven over the past 20 years of prices rocketing, football is very inelastic to price changes - fans will generally turn up no matter what.  So in much the same way that attendances haven't dropped when prices have been going up they just as likely won't increase sufficiently enough if prices came down.

[Ad@m]

At the SCG they said that the greater capacity of a standing area would be reflected in pricing. They also cited one of their main reasons it as being wanting to attract young fans who have been priced out.

Why have greater capacity when we can't sell out the stadium we have?  And that applies to 95% of football clubs, not just the Villa.

As for attracting new fans, the numbers just don't stack up.  How much cheaper would standing be?  If you made a section of the ground holding 2,000 a standing area at half price then you'd need to find another 1,000 fans from somewhere just to maintain the same level of income.  The more you discount and the larger the standing area (assuming it gets filled) the more new fans you need to find.  Even when we had a terraced Holte End our crowds have never really moved far from the historical average of 30,000-35,000.

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

I would suggest something like in this picture, designed to accomodate two rows of standing fans, or alternatively one row of fans with the seats dropped down...




is not only far far safer than this, designed to pack in as many as possible regardless of comfort or safety......




but is also safer than this, designed for seating only but often used for standing.......

[The Laughing Policeman]

A link to info on Don Fosters bill currently before parliament.   http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2010-11/safestandingfootballstadia.html

Just to add the bill is now due for debate on 30 March.
Get writing to your MP's.

[D.boy]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in. Liverpool fans back then had a reputation for turning up ticketless and jumping turnstiles at matches, witnessed first hand by my dad who worked as a turnstile operator at both Villa Park and the sty during the 80's.
I dont want to start a new thread about Hillsborough as there is a thread about that elsewhere and I fully sympathise with those that lost relatives on that day.
In this day and age there is a valid argument to bring back safe standing areas as they would be better managed. The atmosphere would be much better, you can stand with your mates and the noise level would go up. I have rarely felt the buzz I got whilst standing on the old Holte End. Football lost it's soul for me when all seater stadiums were introduced.
As a paying customer I think I should have a choice to stand or sit at a game.

[Stu]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in. Liverpool fans back then had a reputation for turning up ticketless and jumping turnstiles at matches, witnessed first hand by my dad who worked as a turnstile operator at both Villa Park and the sty during the 80's.

I thought it had been proved that most of the fans had tickets, or if they didn't, them not having tickets wasn't the problem. There was thread about it a few months ago.

[dave.woodhall]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in.

22 years and still the lie is perpetuated. How many more times does it have to be disproved?

[dave.woodhall]

The only reason I can see for going back to standing is for the older generation (myslef included) who remember what is was like in the Holte / Kop / Stretford end etc... and what the old days back. What is the practical reason? Will it be cheaper? Football seems to be the only part of life where some people want to stand rather than sit.

 

Every gig I go to has people standing. 

[Chris Smith]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in. Liverpool fans back then had a reputation for turning up ticketless and jumping turnstiles at matches, witnessed first hand by my dad who worked as a turnstile operator at both Villa Park and the sty during the 80's.

I suggest you read the Taylor report and then reassess your thoughtless comments.

[lordmcgrath5]

I dont understand why 10 ppl have voted against this. Bizarre.

edit: Just read that article...

Commentary by Margaret Aspinall chairwoman of the Hillsborough Families Support Group

There is no place for standing in modern football and I cannot comprehend why people want to go back to how it was in the 1980s.

It is both insulting and insensitive to suggest that it is a good idea, particularly knowing there has never been any accountability for what happened at Hillsborough in April 1989.

They should never be put in a position of how it was in the 1980s.

With all due respect to those that lost their lives (and their friends and families) in those disasters, Margaret Aspinall clearly hasnt got a clue what shes talking about if she thinks an introduction of "safe standing" would be in anyway a throw back to the 1980s. It is neither insulting nor insensitive to think such measures would be a good idea, and the fact that it has been proved to be safe and successful in other countries is valid proof that it can work in modern society and modern day football.

I sincerely hope groups or individuals do not campaign against the scheme on the basis of what has happened in completely different situations in the past.

Couldn't have put it better myself, KRS. She's got every reason to be emotional about this issue - I understand that. But that doesn't make her right. The fences and the lack of escape routes were a very large part of the problem at Hillsborough, which is why the key safety measure since 1989 was removing the pens around terraced areas. Other than reducing the numbers on terraces and ensuring more even distribution of fans around standing areas, it could have been left at that as far as safety was concerned. But clubs seized the opportunity to put up prices on the back of shiny new family-friendly grounds - all-seating suited them and probably still does.

[The Laughing Policeman]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in. Liverpool fans back then had a reputation for turning up ticketless and jumping turnstiles at matches, witnessed first hand by my dad who worked as a turnstile operator at both Villa Park and the sty during the 80's.
I dont want to start a new thread about Hillsborough as there is a thread about that elsewhere and I fully sympathise with those that lost relatives on that day.
In this day and age there is a valid argument to bring back safe standing areas as they would be better managed. The atmosphere would be much better, you can stand with your mates and the noise level would go up. I have rarely felt the buzz I got whilst standing on the old Holte End. Football lost it's soul for me when all seater stadiums were introduced.
As a paying customer I think I should have a choice to stand or sit at a game.

And when you read the Taylor report in full you will see that that tragedy was waiting to happen at almost any First division ground on a big match day. The failings at Hillsborough were replicated throughout football at that time.

[Olneythelonely]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in. Liverpool fans back then had a reputation for turning up ticketless and jumping turnstiles at matches, witnessed first hand by my dad who worked as a turnstile operator at both Villa Park and the sty during the 80's.
I dont want to start a new thread about Hillsborough as there is a thread about that elsewhere and I fully sympathise with those that lost relatives on that day.
In this day and age there is a valid argument to bring back safe standing areas as they would be better managed. The atmosphere would be much better, you can stand with your mates and the noise level would go up. I have rarely felt the buzz I got whilst standing on the old Holte End. Football lost it's soul for me when all seater stadiums were introduced.
As a paying customer I think I should have a choice to stand or sit at a game.

I don't know why you'd find an outright lie "gripping". You don't even need to do too much reading to discover what bullshit that is.

[D.boy]

If that's been proved not to be the case then I will happily stand corrected. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[He wears a magic hat]

The one thing that really grips me about the Hillsborough tragedy is that the finger is always pointed at the Stewards/Police/Turnstiles/Fences/ground layout but no-one ever mentions the Liverpool supporters who turned up ticketless to get into the game. That enclosure was rammed full yet 100/1000's more were flooding in. Liverpool fans back then had a reputation for turning up ticketless and jumping turnstiles at matches, witnessed first hand by my dad who worked as a turnstile operator at both Villa Park and the sty during the 80's.
I dont want to start a new thread about Hillsborough as there is a thread about that elsewhere and I fully sympathise with those that lost relatives on that day.
In this day and age there is a valid argument to bring back safe standing areas as they would be better managed. The atmosphere would be much better, you can stand with your mates and the noise level would go up. I have rarely felt the buzz I got whilst standing on the old Holte End. Football lost it's soul for me when all seater stadiums were introduced.
As a paying customer I think I should have a choice to stand or sit at a game.

And when you read the Taylor report in full you will see that that tragedy was waiting to happen at almost any First division ground on a big match day. The failings at Hillsborough were replicated throughout football at that time.

And anyone that went to West Ham 12 months earlier in the league cup would know this. If fencing had been in place at Upton Park I'm fairly certain Hillsboro wouldn't have happened and we'd be talking about Villa supporters