Women and the offside rule - Andy Gray sacked

[jonzy85]

Whether Andy Gray is on/off tv is of very little significance to me. Clearly someone(s) had it in for him at Sky and has shafted him.

But the whole sexism debate is riddled with so much hypocrisy and double-standards, I'm not even sure where I stand on it.

Firstly, I have worked in environments where the attitude of some men including the bosses and management was unbelievably sexist and chauvinistic. Some of the things said to girls we worked with were shocking. Andy's comment to Charlotte Jackson wouldnt have fluttered an eyelid. But that was a pub, so maybe it's not a particularly "professional" environment. I work in an office now and certainly none of that would go on (publicly).

That brings me to my next point. There isnt a workplace around where  sexist jokes/banter etc exists. Some may have sympathy for Gray simply because he got caught. However, I think the fact that he so openly made those remarks where he knew there were cameras around gives an insight of the sexist environment that exists in Sky.

Then there is the point of whether by working for Sky purely because your a hot bird you are implicitly accepting the role as subject to male chauvinism. Surley, there are a lot of extremely adept women presenters who have great knowledge about sport that arent as attractive as Charloote Jackson and Georgie Thomson et al. Yet they never seem to be employed by Sky.

I also find it amusing that Sky boradcast Soccer Am, which has had the Soccerette as a regular on feature on its show for years. Surely that is the definition of sexism and objectifying women.

At the end of the day, Sky are going to make a PR show about sacking Gray and we'll see about Keys and Burton. Nothing will change though. Football is a male dominated industry, it's marketed to men, plas on our needs on desires and closely linked to this is the fact that we like looking at attractive women and yes making the odd joke about it. It doesnt make it right and isnt fair on the likes Sian Massey who is trying to make a career out of being a referee, but that is the world we live in.

[Small Rodent]

"Live football is well known as something everyone wants to work on. But no one wants to work with those two. They took the piss out of a runner for having no money. It's nasty bullying with an edge. It's not just banter."

Andy Gray was my childhood hero. 

[damon loves JT]

Gray, who despite the general dislike made the show what it is

Yes he did, but he's been there a long time now, like Keys. If they've any sense Sky will use this as an opportunity to freshen up the whole thing.

Stelling would be brilliant.

[Ger Regan]

Pretty grim by the sound of it.

'There's been a culture of bullying and sexism at Sky for a long time'

Three women who held prominent positions at Sky Sports describe a 'lads' club' and a 'climate of fear'

The only surprise about the events leading to Andy Gray's sacking as the most famous voice in football yesterday was that he had not made a similar gaffe in public before. That is the view of three women who have all held frontline roles at Sky Sports.

Fearing repercussions that could harm their careers if they were identified, the three spoke to the Guardian on condition of anonymity. But despite talking separately, their views echoed each other's; each describing the bullying and sexist culture they feel Gray and his co-presenter, Richard Keys, have fostered.

One former Sky journalist said: "It came as absolutely no surprise to me to see this. The surprise is that we haven't seen more. It's the kind of language and vocabulary that is used within the Sky football department all the time."

Another, who still works for Sky, said: "There are many stories of their shocking behaviour. [Gray and Keys] are hated by the crews. It's a climate of fear pervading. But as long as everyone is laughing and it's a joke it's all right isn't it? I believe sexism is systemic and not openly challenged but goes underground or disguised as jokes or 'just banter'."

The third separately cited how "just banter" is claimed as a defence, and explained why that claim holds no water. "Live football is well known as something everyone wants to work on. But no one wants to work with those two. They took the piss out of a runner for having no money. It's nasty bullying with an edge. It's not just banter."

All three women agree that Barney Francis, who has been managing director of Sky Sports since his appointment 18 months ago, has improved matters. His decision yesterday summarily to dismiss Gray shows that he will scarcely indulge a chauvinistic culture any longer. One said: "There has been a culture of bullying and sexism around Sky for a very long time, but recently Sky have been managing the bullying a lot better through changes in management. There were rumours of people being told off and that bullying behaviour was unacceptable."

Yet despite the positive steps made by Francis, the women all expressed a feeling that there must be more widespread surgery to eradicate what they described as a patriarchy that limits women's promotion prospects. "There's this blokey vibe and it's like a lads' club," said one. "At the BBC the head of sport is Barbara Slater. Sky are a long way from that situation.

"During my time at Sky Sports News it wasn't hidden that women were appointed to present on it primarily because of the way they looked. You can see how Andy and Richard are behaving like that because the people at the top have employed people without any experience. Clearly that's sexist and it means at Sky you are always looked down on as a woman involved in sport, full stop."

That view chimed with another's view. She said: "You'd get bosses saying, 'It's just fruit on the barrow.' I found it a very sexist working environment. The production staff found it incredibly frustrating: they're younger for a start than the management.

"But it permeated through the whole culture. When Sky Sports News first started the girls were in suits. Sky was still about the image but they wanted women who were interested in sport. "Any monkey can read an autocue and you can't build passion for what you do from nothing. But if you're a woman you were there as decoration. Anything else was a bonus. It's not that there is a criterion about how the girls look. It's that it is the main criterion."

Sky told the Guardian that it hires its presenters principally for their abilities as journalists and presenters. Nonetheless, one of the former Sky journalists pointed out that the fact that Gray and Keys's unreconstructed comments were leaked into the public domain reflects the glee that Sky employees would feel at their downfall.

"I think deep down Richard and Andy are just bullies," she said. "They bully new men in the game as well. It's how they operate. They don't have many friends there but after 20 years they've always been at the top of the game and earning a ridiculous amount of money, so I guess who's laughing?

"But they have ruled the roost for a long time and upset people for a long time. They got into bother with someone who had a schadenfreude motive. I am just surprised that you have a broadcaster with experience of 20 years talking like that in front of a mic and not expecting it to get out. It was not the first time they were caught saying things they shouldn't say. They think they can get away with murder. How arrogant."

A Sky spokesman said last night: "There was evidence at the weekend and we took action. Today there has been new evidence and we have taken entirely appropriate action. If people are saying there is a culture of sexism here that shows we don't tolerate it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/26/andy-gray-richard-keys-sixist

As suspected by some, it obviously wasn't just a one-off issue. Think it will be very hard for anyone to defend what appears to have gone on at Sky now.

[Dave Javu]

While we're at it, I give you "The most qualified person not to have managed a Premiership or Football League side":

This person won 66 caps for England, debuting at 16, won the FA Cup 3 times including the league and cup double one year. The England manager since 1998, OBE in 2002 and CBE in 2010, also obtained a UEFA Pro License coaching badge alongside Stuart Pearce in 2003. Massively exceeding expectations, England reached the final of the last European Championships in 2009.

Hope Powell was turned down in favour of some bloke called Neil Woods as manager of Grimsby in 2009.

Is it because she is black, do you think?

[Chico Hamilton III]

Hypocritical to sack Gray and keep Keyes

Agree with that. I can only assume that Keys has got some pretty tasty blackmail on senior Sky bosses.

Talking of which, Barney Francis is the MD of Sky Sports and the son of Tony Francis, former sports presenter and, presumably, a chum of Richard Keys?

[WikiVilla]

Has the hairy chimp gone yet

[London Villan]

True enough and there should be massive change at Sky then, no news presenters doing FHM photo shoots, banning the numbers girls at boxing, getting rid of the girls who escort the darts players to the stage... will it happen? Or will the news move to the next story of a celeb saying something stupid and getting stung?

[damon loves JT]

Nothing will change though.

I'm not as pessimistic. I think most people have seen the problem for what it is, and that's encouraging.

[midnite]

Gray, who despite the general dislike made the show what it is

Stelling would be brilliant.

Absolutely. They need to show keys the door too now, get some fresh blood in, stelling or Richardson would be brilliant (oh happy days of football italia on channel 4)

[The Man With A Stick]

Looks like Teen Wolf's dad might be next:

(copied from the Daily Mail so you don't have to go there)

The sexism scandal engulfing Sky Sports rumbles on today as Richard Keys faces a fight to ensure he doesn't follow sacked Andy Gray out of the door.  Gray was axed from his £1.7million-a-year role as their leading football pundit after a third video emerged of his sexist behaviour.

The clip, which was posted on YouTube, was the last straw for Sky's hierarchy. They had already given him a final warning over his sexist diatribe in conversation with football presenter Richard Keys, which was launched at assistant referee Sian Massey and West Ham vice-chairman Karren Brady.
But Keys is now under further scrutiny after yet another video clip was posted on YouTube. The off-air footage shows Keys using vulgar language to Jamie Redknapp, Graeme Souness and Ruud Gullit at Stamford Bridge.

Keys uses aggressive language to describe sex with a woman when discussing a former girlfriend of Redknapp called 'Louise'.
Keys refers to the woman as 'it' and twice asks Redknapp if he 'smashed it'. Redknapp replies that he 'used to go out with her'.
Now laughing, Keys then adds: 'Mind you, that's a stupid question, if you were anywhere near it, you definitely smashed it. You could have gone round there any night and found Redknapp hanging out the back of it.'

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[Bosco81]

While we're at it, I give you "The most qualified person not to have managed a Premiership or Football League side":

This person won 66 caps for England, debuting at 16, won the FA Cup 3 times including the league and cup double one year. The England manager since 1998, OBE in 2002 and CBE in 2010, also obtained a UEFA Pro License coaching badge alongside Stuart Pearce in 2003. Massively exceeding expectations, England reached the final of the last European Championships in 2009.

Hope Powell was turned down in favour of some bloke called Neil Woods as manager of Grimsby in 2009.

Is it because she is black, do you think?

That would be the Neil Woods who has played over 200 times for Grimsby, it's not like it was some bloke who has not be in the game.

I would imagine managers get appointed as much for their contacts as their coaching knowledge which is why Hope Powell will always find it difficult to get a manager's role in the men's game.

I don't see any reason why she can't be given a coaching role somewhere, the same stepping stone the majority of managers have to make.

[ozzjim]

Richardson would be very good. Can you see them taking the route of going to someone like Helen Chamberlain to really right the image for some broadcasts? Ben Shepherd moved there recently though, is young, has worked with a female co presenter for years at GMTV and I would imagine will be the first in line.

Pundit wise, I always quite like Gerry Armstrong on the spanish football for some reason.

[RickySlade]

How the hell has Keyes managed to hold onto his job?!  That clip of him a few pages back, thinking he's the Fonz, using the term 'smash her' over and over just to make sure Redknapp junior hears is beyond cringeworthy.  He also looks like he's overstretching slightly to ensure his crossed feet reach the table in front.  Wanker.   

The look on Souness face is priceless though. 

[Dave Javu]

That would be the Neil Woods who has played over 200 times for Grimsby,

The same Neil Woods who in the same season failed to get Grimsby a win in his first 22 games in charge and got them relegated to the Conference.