Ashley Young, Diver ?

[Dante Lavelli]

Not sure how, or indeed if this adds to the debate but I found it a reasonably amusing read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/oct/15/ashley-young-england-tricks

The late, great boxing trainer Ray Arcel was fond of remarking: "Tough times make monkeys eat red peppers." Nobody quite knows what the man AJ Liebling described as being "severe and decisive, like the teacher in a Hebrew school" meant by this, but the expression undoubtedly had the acrid tang of authenticity.

The United States boxing scene has a rich linguistic heritage, which is one of the things that attracted writers such as Damon Runyon and Ring Lardner to it. Arcel might observe of Joe Louis's opponents: "When they got in the ring they folded – like tulips," his erstwhile partner Whitey Bimstein might comment: "I like the country. It's a nice spot," or a manager might summarise changes in business practice with the words: "One time you had an argument with somebody you rolled a Molotov cocktail down his garden path, but these days it's lawyers, lawyers, lawyers." When you hung around guys like that, the dialogue took care of itself.

British footballers have rarely shown much aptitude for colourful or gnomic pronouncements, which is why we must applaud the efforts of the Aston Villa and England striker Ashley Young, who this week informed the nation: "I think age is just a number – if you are young enough you are old enough."

If the winger is to continue in this vein, then we are in for a treat. As Paul Gascoigne once said: "I don't make predictions and I never will," but in this case I'll make an exception and say that I have feeling in my bones that the winter will not long be over before Ashley has announced: "Form is class, but permanent is temporary," and: "We have nothing to fear but the stuff we are frightened of."

Young is clearly a man with almost as many strings to his cap as he has feathers to his bow. In the recent past he has also been praised by expert pundits for "having a trick". These days having a trick is considered vital if you are a winger. Before England's game in Switzerland Mark Pougatch on Radio 5 Live asked David Pleat if perhaps Aaron Lennon needed to "go away and learn a trick".

This conjured a pleasing image of Lennon turning up on the field at White Hart Lane one afternoon wearing a fez and bamboozling opponents by saying: "Glass, bottle. Bottle, glass. Ball, foot. Foot, ball," before doing his usual and falling over. Lennon isn't alone among English wingers in being considered deficient in the trick department. Before the 2006 World Cup Chris Waddle fretted that the then Middlesbrough winger Stewart Downing "doesn't really have a trick".

Waddle, of course, did have a trick. He hunched his shoulders and ran towards an opponent leaning forward at the precipitous angle of somebody charging the wrong way down a moving walkway. So ungainly was his manner that defenders went: "Pah! No point in bothering tackling him. He'll trip over his own feet in two yards."

No sooner had they thought this though than the boy from Pelaw surged past them and executed a crowd-pleasing step-over before pinging a pinpoint perfect 30-yard pass into the feet of a team-mate with the outside of his boot.

The only downside of Waddle's trick was referees were as fooled by his perpetual air of incipient catastrophe as opponents, which made it more or less impossible for the midfielder to win a penalty (or "pelanty" as he would style it). Even when blatantly hacked down – as against the Republic of Ireland in the group stage of Italia 90 – the official would simply chuckle at the geordie's apparent bumbling and wave play on.

In the past, wingers were expected to be tricky, but I don't recall a trick ever being demanded of them. Stanley Matthews had his "bodyswerve", of course, a mysterious action that was always talked of in awestruck tones but never truly explained – the football equivalent of transubstantiation. The great Brazilian Garrincha had one leg shorter than the other and is credited with inventing the step-over. This trick was later the cornerstone of the game of another Brazilian winger, Denílson – though the São Paulo star's greatest trick was somehow persuading Real Betis he was worth £21.5m.

Ron Atkinson was always fond of wingers doing something he called "little lollipops". As we know from the recent Serge Gainsbourg biopic, lollipop is French slang for an act of fellatio. I'm certain that's not what Big Ron had in mind, though it is true that the great Dutch forward Johnny Rep once told Holland's first openly gay referee, Frans Derks, that if he gave any more offside decisions against Ajax "I won't give you a blowjob tonight". Derks apparently burst out laughing, though Rep later claimed not to be able to remember the incident.

What sort of trick Lennon and Downing need to learn, whether the baroque if slightly naff Siegfried and Roy-style of sleight of foot favoured by Cristiano Ronaldo, something more homespun in the manner of Paul 'Not a lot' Daniels, or an edgy street magic act such as was once the preserve of David Blaine and which would fit nicely into a Nike advert, has not been made clear. Perhaps in time Young will explain.

[Olneythelonely]

I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.

 

Like my one? He didn't dive?

That's not an excuse, it's denial.   I don think too many independent observers would agree with you.

What do you mean by independent observer? I'm always moaning about Young's diving for Villa, but usually only when he dives.

I think you need to calm down a little bit.

[mozza]

The most disappointing thing about this issue forme is that Ashley
doesn't need to dive / fall over without apparent reason etc,..

The guy is perfectly capable of beating an opposing player with
skill, speed or combination of both - end of.........if he did this more
often I'm sure fans of other clubs would pay him more respect and
dare I say it, some Villa fans wouldn't cringe so often when he does
go to ground

I have to wonder if the coaching staff ever have a quiet word in his
ear or is it that Ashley is set in his ways and will never change ?

[ktvillan]

I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.

 

Like my one? He didn't dive?

That's not an excuse, it's denial.   I don think too many independent observers would agree with you.

What do you mean by independent observer? I'm always moaning about Young's diving for Villa, but usually only when he dives.

I think you need to calm down a little bit.

Well quite obviously I meant those who aren't likely to defend Young out of some sense of loaylty to Villa or the player.  I haven't seen many, if any,  of them that agree with you. 

I'm quite calm thanks and your advice might be better served on yourself by the looks of things.

[Olneythelonely]

Oh yeah, I'm livid. I've just beat up a granny.

I'm defending him because he didn't dive. Not because he plays for the Villa. As I've said, I think he costs us a lot with his antics but he didn't dive. I don't really care too much who agrees with me. I certainly won't start raging like a crystal meth head and start calling everyone pathetic.

[Blackcountry Villa]

Yes, he's a cheating little shit and we'd hate him if he played for anyone else and got up to his antics.

[peter w]

Yes he does dive sometimes. Some h egets given some not. Sometimes he's kicked when he has the ball and sometimes he doesn't. Carry on diving Ash but don't make them all as riciulous as the one on Tuesday night as referees will single you out as a diver. Nothing wrong with it in my book.

[PaulTheVillan]

I thought he did dive, he jumped with his feet together before the contact was made.

[Edvard Remberg]

He was firstly fouled, had no chance of escaping the oncoming player. Wimp maybe - dive no. He just prepared to get clathered. And should have been a penalty, as it was an unfair challenge - Ashley lifting his legs or not.

[Toronto Villa]

does he elaborate at times? Yes. But instead of people crucifying him for this, how about sometimes we recognize and commend him for the fact that he gets clattered quite often yet never misses a game. For me, Ash is as tough as nails for a small player. Look at how many games Lennon misses by comparison. He's one of us, wants to stay one of us, and is one, if not the most important player we have. Let's get behind him.

[Chris Smith]

So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver.  Hysterical in both senses of the word.

And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young.  For diving. 

It's not hysterical in any sense of the word, that's just you struggling for an argument.

Exactly, the ref sorted it out. So why the need for anything else?

I'll repeat as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. I accept that diving is cheating but it is only one of the many forms it takes and it is hypocritical to make more of this type than others. They'll all be dealt with by the ref if spotted and it is only because in this country it is considered to be somehow associated with those pesky foreigners that it gets treated with such scorn.

Chris you can rant about "other forms of cheating" as much as you like, I doubt anyone is really interested. The thread is about Young being a diver.  Nothing else.  He is, you've admitted as much yourself.  And a lot of people find it a particularly objectionable  form of cheating, not to mention often pointless and self defeating.  Get over it.

What do you mean by get over it? You are the one that has a problem with it, not me.

I've still to see anyone give a cogent argument for why diving is a worse form of cheating than any of the others that go on in every single game. Unlike most on this thread I've given it some thought, not just blindly gone along with the accepted wisdom, and I cannot think of any logical explanation.

[pedro25]

He dived.

[olaftab]

He attempted to gain  an advantage in his team's favour.

[charlie659]

Ash last night:-

Running at players was decent.
Set piece delivery was poor.
Diving was embarassing.

Could read 'Ash last 2 seasons' I'm afraid

[ktvillan]

Sure I have a problem with it Chris, it's detrimental to the team as it wastes good possession and refs have cottoned on to him so it rarely wins a free kick (you said yourself he isn't even very good at it, despite all the practice).   Dont you want what's best for the team?

Once again, the thread isnt about whether diving is a worse form of cheating than any other, it's about whether Ash is a diver or not.  But for what it's worth I think diving is worse than claimng a corner, for example, for many reasons.  Claiming a corner isn't likely to significantly affect the way a game unfolds, or the result.  A dive quite often does as it often leads to a yellow card (making the opponent more wary of a mistimed challenge) or even a red card, a penalty, or a free kick in a dangerous area.    All these can be game changing consequences.  On top of all that there is something distinctly unmanly about throwing yourself around like a big girl's blouse, which is not the case with most other forms of "cheating".  Were you thinking "it's all part of the game"  as Slaven Bilic threw himself theatrically to the floor clutching his face and getting Laurent Blanc sent off in the 98 WC semi final or were you sickened by the cynicism and the consequences for Blanc?

Anyway I'm sure if Drogba takes a tumble in our box and wins a penalty today you'll loudly and openly stick up for him and say leave the poor chap alone it's no worse than Heskey claiming that corner that was clearly a goal kick.   Perhaps you can report back to us how eveyone around you reacted.