Ashley Young, Diver ?

[paul_e]

I think the bigger problem here is referees in all honesty.  Next time Carew plays watch how many times free kicks aren't given too him because he stays up and how many times free kicks are given against him because the defender falls over.  In a microcosm he shows everything that's wrong with modern refereeing.  Players like Ash going down easy are a result of this not the other way round.

[pedro25]

Yep agree with that Paul, in the Bolton match Knight had ahold of Gabby all game, there were countless infringements that went unpunished becasue Gabby tried to stand his ground and the ref was useless.  Chicken and egg situation though, both refs and diving need sorting somehow.

[The Situation]

If Ben Arfa had got straight up no one would have ever mentioned that challenge, as there are worse challenges every week in the Prem.  It was a poor challenge, but it was one footed along the ground, if we wipe out that sort of challenge I think it would be a poorer game to watch.

"if we wipe out that sort of challenge I think it would be a poorer game to watch."

That sort of challenge broke Ben Arfa's leg!

The rules are pretty simple, don't go making any two-footed tackles and don't go making any tackles where your studs show. If thicko footballers actually read the the rules and not act like thugs there would be less broken ankles and legs in football, just go for the ball and you would be in with a chance of getting sent off.

[ktvillan]

I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.

"Everybody does it, why pick on Young?".  No they don't. e.g. Have a look at Adam Johnson, I've yet to see him dive and he always seems to try and stay on his feet even when clipped. See also Milner, Albrighton and many many other wingers who don't feel the need to fall down like a dainty fainting lady every time a defender comes within a metre of them.   Young gets singled out because he is one of the worst, most persistent offenders, along with the likes of Drogba, Gerrard, and Ladyboy when he was here.  Simple.

"But he takes so much stick". Sure he does but it's utterly irrelevant to the diving debate. It's up to the ref to penalise any genuine fouls.

"It's no worse than many other forms of cheating, why concentrate on this particular form of cheating".  Because we are talking about a particular player and a particualer type of incident which is too typical of him and detrimental to the team.   I agree with Dave, if we had a player who conceded too many needless fouls or committed too many dangerous challenges then I'm sure there would be a thread calling for him to cut it out, since again it is detrimental to the team.  To liken it to claiming a corner unjustly is laughable.

"But he was caught"  Yes, he was, but after he'd started diving.  Which made it all the more stupid as he might have got a pen if he hadn't dived.

"He is just trying to avoid injury" Then he shouldn't be such a pussy and maybe he is in the wrong job.  See other wingers listed above who dont seem to feel the need to avoid challenges by falling over all the time.

"He's so lightweight that he's bound to go down at the merest touch".  Missing the point completely in that like Tuesday night he often goes down without being touched or before being touched.

Why can't you just face facts, however talented he  may be, the bloke is a diver, and everyone without claret and blue specs on can see it. 

[Smithy]

I don't think it's 'diving' in the traditional sense, so much as looking for the appropriate amount of contact to win a free-kick.  It's rare that a player completely dives nowadays, because with all the TV coverage they'd get slaughtered.

Now the trick appears to be, 'how can I get clipped just enough to justify going down?'  This means refs have any even harder job because they're not deciding if there was contact, but whether the fouled player went looking for contact and manufactured the foul (which Ash does an awful lot).

His booking for England was a definite case of him looking for the contact, as he was already partially on the way down when he was hit.  But it WAS a foul, and had he stayed upright until the challenge I think he might have got the pen.

[Chris Smith]

It's up to the ref to penalise any genuine fouls.

Your whole argument falls down (pun intended) right there. Defenders get away with many fouls every game due to incompetent officials, clever forwards try to redress the balance. Your claim that others don't do it is just laughable.

[ktvillan]

Please explain Chris how the fact that  defenders sometimes get away with fouls means my argument that Young is a diver falls down.  Even if he is doing it to redress some imaginary balance, and/or is being clever, it's still diving.  And I wouldn't say Young losing England the chance of a pen by diving was particualrly clever.

Please clarify how me clearly mentioning three players who, like Young,  are renowned and rightly chastised for regularly diving means I have claimed that others dont do it?  Interesting interpretation.

It's fairly obvious I said not everyone does it - as some have claimed.  And I even provided examples.

But feel free to laugh away at something you have made up.

[Olneythelonely]

I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.

 

Like my one? He didn't dive?

[Dave Cooper please]

I'd like to revisit this thread if Drogba gets breathed on the wrong way by Luke Young for the winning penalty on Saturday.

[ktvillan]

I see the usual pathetic excuses are being rolled out for Young's diving again.

 

Like my one? He didn't dive?

That's not an excuse, it's denial.   I don think too many independent observers would agree with you.

[Chris Smith]

Please explain Chris how the fact that  defenders sometimes get away with fouls means my argument that Young is a diver falls down.  Even if he is doing it to redress some imaginary balance, and/or is being clever, it's still diving.  And I wouldn't say Young losing England the chance of a pen by diving was particualrly clever.

Please clarify how me clearly mentioning three players who, like Young,  are renowned and rightly chastised for regularly diving means I have claimed that others dont do it?  Interesting interpretation.

It's fairly obvious I said not everyone does it - as some have claimed.  And I even provided examples.

But feel free to laugh away at something you have made up.

You're the one making things up, I've seen Adam Johnson, Marc Albrighton and James Milner all claim fouls that weren't. Young's problem, if there is one, is that he's not as good at it as some others.

As I said before it's just a little Englander mentality to decry this aspect of the game, because it's somehow all a bit Johnny Foreigner while hardly batting an eyelid at all of the other myriad forms of cheating that go on in every single game.

If your argument is for the ref to sort it out when it comes to fouls then the same applies to diving.

Once again I'm not condoning it, just making the point that it's no better or worse than many other offences .

[curiousorange]

I didn't think it was a dive, for what it's worth.

[ktvillan]

So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver.  Hysterical in both senses of the word.

And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young.  For diving. 

[Chris Smith]

So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver.  Hysterical in both senses of the word.

And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young.  For diving. 

It's not hysterical in any sense of the word, that's just you struggling for an argument.

Exactly, the ref sorted it out. So why the need for anything else?

I'll repeat as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. I accept that diving is cheating but it is only one of the many forms it takes and it is hypocritical to make more of this type than others. They'll all be dealt with by the ref if spotted and it is only because in this country it is considered to be somehow associated with those pesky foreigners that it gets treated with such scorn.

[ktvillan]

So now I'm a little Englander for saying that an Englishman that dives is a diver.  Hysterical in both senses of the word.

And the ref did sort it out, he booked Young.  For diving. 

It's not hysterical in any sense of the word, that's just you struggling for an argument.

Exactly, the ref sorted it out. So why the need for anything else?

I'll repeat as you appear to be a little slow on the uptake. I accept that diving is cheating but it is only one of the many forms it takes and it is hypocritical to make more of this type than others. They'll all be dealt with by the ref if spotted and it is only because in this country it is considered to be somehow associated with those pesky foreigners that it gets treated with such scorn.

Chris you can rant about "other forms of cheating" as much as you like, I doubt anyone is really interested. The thread is about Young being a diver.  Nothing else.  He is, you've admitted as much yourself.  And a lot of people find it a particularly objectionable  form of cheating, not to mention often pointless and self defeating.  Get over it.