The Martin O'Neill thread (with added sacking #2188)

[eamonn]

I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.

At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.

Spot on and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned much up to now. The final two seasons of his reign, 08/09 and 09/10 when we were fighting for 4th place up until May, saw extremely average results and performances at VP. I'd go as far to say that season-ticket holders would have been more than entitled to feel they had been given a raw deal. We won less than half our matches and the goal average wasn't much to write home about either.

The spawny 0-1 wins at the likes of Hull and Portsmouth with the one lightning-quick counter attack that came off and then spending the rest of the game defending for our lives like a League Two club was not lost on me at the time and I often wondered how long it would be before we would get found out.

There were some far more impressive away days, mentioned before now, but in general terms we were a team whose attacking prowess was built almost solely on abilities from set-pieces and counter-attacks. Opening teams up, patient build-up play, incisive and quick passing, through balls etc. were never really in our arsenal under him and it's what distinguished us from being a decent side to what could have been, with a bit of ingenuity, a great one.

I think it's harsh to call them 'spawny' when we had such a long established away record.  Some were easy wins by a few goals, other a bit tighter, but when you won away as much as we did it can only be due being a VERY good away side.

We were, thanks to our abilities at breaking with pace and deliveries from set-pieces. Which is suited to away days and is MON's style in essence - it has been at Leicester, it is at Sunderland. 
I maintain that more than a few of those were jammy away wins, the ones I mentioned I clearly remember thinking how we got away with it.

Of course it's unrealistic to expect us to be free-flowing all the time especially away from home but having the lion's share of possession and breaking down teams - things you'd expect from a side aiming for the Champions League, was something we struggled with a lot.

[pauliewalnuts]

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.

It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.

Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.

Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.

I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.

Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.

When Ferguson leaves Man United, his legacy will be a trophy cabinet containing god knows how many leagues and cups he won, and a club still at the top of the tree.

A club which is indisputably one oif the three or four biggest in the world, and one which hadn't won the league for a quarter of a century when he arrived.

[pauliewalnuts]

Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy

Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.

It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.

Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.

Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.

I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.

Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.

You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.

If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.

Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.

O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.

Ron Saunders' team was relegated within 5 years, I don't hear many people going on about how poor his legacy was.

His legacy - a team which won the league and EC - was taken to pieces within a couple of years of him going. As Dave said, the team that got relegated had little in common with the Saunders team.

Martin's most damning legacy was an unsustainable wage bill, largely paying players with next to no sell-on value, players who suit a style of football most people stopped playing years ago, plus players who had barely been used in the time they were here.

Oh, plus no trophies and not taking us any higher up the league than DOL did.

[dave.woodhall]

Sir Graham's team almost got relegated the year after he left but his legacy was still strong a decade later.

[kippaxvilla2]

I am not going to do the quotathon thing, but the point that was originally made is that manager's are largely judged on their legacy, I don't think that is necessarily the case.

[Sexual Ealing]

That was also my point.

No argument from me against the specifics of O'Neill's legacy here.

[pauliewalnuts]

I am not going to do the quotathon thing, but the point that was originally made is that manager's are largely judged on their legacy, I don't think that is necessarily the case.

Fair enough, but I'd say "legacy" isn't just about the situation when they leave, going forward, it also includes achievements, which is probably where it all gets a bit murky, it really depends how you look at it.

[Mister E]

Legacies tend to last because fans remember something notable, rather than dwelling on the failures: when SrAlex finally goes, will many people be interested in the poor signings and the excessive fees paid for Veron, the Djemba twins, etc? Not really - the focus will be on the trophies.
Clough's managerial career may have ended ignominiously but the Forest fans I know can - like us - wallow in the fading glory of having won the Euroepan Cup.
MON leaves no postive legacy for us because he won nothing; his positive impact was transient (and the negative impact pretty damned lasting).
Football doesn't reward 'almost' and 'if only'. Nor does its fans revere managers who tried and failed.
Much.

[Damo70]

In 1982 Ron Saunders and Bobby Robson left behing strong sides that were also relatively young. Over the next few years the people running Ipswich grudgingly sold their heroes to bigger clubs who paid bigger wages for decent money. The person running Villa seemed in a hurry to practically give away a number of players for some reason. I think Ipswich got as much for Russell Osman and Alan Brazil as we got for Rimmer, Swain, Gibson, McNaught, Mortimer, Bremner and Morley.

[Concrete John]

As a slight aside, what sort of legacy did 'arry leave at Portsmouth?  He was undoubtedly successful, and that FA Cup win was exceptional for them in modern times, but the club has gone to pot since!

[tomd2103]

As a slight aside, what sort of legacy did 'arry leave at Portsmouth?  He was undoubtedly successful, and that FA Cup win was exceptional for them in modern times, but the club has gone to pot since!

I've always thought that some managers like to leave clubs in as much turmoil as possible, with the thought that failure after they have left will only reflect positively on them.  It's not a coincidence that this happened at a number of clubs that certain managers have been at.   

[amfy]

Certainly at a number of clubs Harry Redknapps been at.

[Irish villain]

Within very recent memory (ie any football person who grew up in the 90s should remember), Brian Little, Big Ron, John Gregory and even DO'L either took us to sixth or above yet the media never bang on about it.

The narrative we continue to be subjected to of 'plucky little Aston Villa finishing sixth under MON three seasons in a row' is what really bugs me about MON's time at villa. We were never out of the top eight between 1996 and 2002 and managed to finish 4th and 5th in that time not to mention finishing second twice in the early 1990s.

So sixth under MON was a reasonable achievement for villa and nothing more. He brought dynamism, a feel-good factor, positive media coverage and a sense that we were the next big thing. However, he achieved nothing of note. By that I mean his tenure was, on balance, pretty unremarkable when viewed alongside the club's achievements in say the mid 1970s, the early 1980s or the mid 1990s.

[dave.woodhall]

So sixth under MON was a reasonable achievement for villa and nothing more. He brought dynamism, a feel-good factor, positive media coverage and a sense that we were the next big thing. However, he achieved nothing of note. By that I mean his tenure was, on balance, pretty unremarkable when viewed alongside the club's achievements in say the mid 1970s, the early 1980s or the mid 1990s.

Sums it up nicely.

[Rip Van We Go Again]

Which way is the H&V wind blowing today?

Do we love him again?