Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on August 11, 2010, 10:11:14 PM
-
&feature=related
&feature=fvw
Just two of the many.
-
Thanks for the memories, and a great big fuck you for screwing us over in the end.
-
Thanks for the memories, and a great big fuck you for screwing us over in the end.
If that's what he has done (and I have reason to doubt it). Doesn't mean we erase the memories. He made us feel proud of our
club again.
-
Thanks for the memories, and a great big fuck you for screwing us over in the end.
If that's what he has done (and I have reason to doubt it). Doesn't mean we erase the memories. He made us feel proud of our
club again.
You have reason to doubt he walked out five days before the start of the season? And I never stopped feeling proud of my club.
-
Thanks for delivering parity with the JG years.
Those halcyon days.
And for only £120 million spent?
What a legend.
-
I would like to thank Martin for awaking certain memories.....
....he has left us in the shit. David o'leary took out Doug Ellis!!
-
Thanks for the memories, and a great big fuck you for screwing us over in the end.
If that's what he has done (and I have reason to doubt it). Doesn't mean we erase the memories. He made us feel proud of our
club again.
You have reason to doubt he walked out five days before the start of the season? And I never stopped feeling proud of my club.
Agreed. My pride in Aston Villa had nothing to do with Martin O'Neill.
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
-
Thanks for delivering parity with the JG years.
Those halcyon days.
And for only £120 million spent?
What a legend.
Aye. And not even a better finish than DOL
-
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
Sorry, but after reading that from someone with your name I have to smile.
-
Fuck me we can be bitter. I can accept that what he did by quitting wasn't good. But don't write off the fact that we are better today than when he arrived. That all of a sudden we did nothing under him. I'll never deny that I was one of his supporters, but it is possible to look at his time at the club objectively and with some balance. That he certainly didn't get everything right, but he did get a lot right in that time.
-
100% v The Shit
-
I don't think anyone is suggesting he did nothing.
But he certainly doesn't deserve to be revered either, even before the events of last Monday.
-
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
Sorry, but after reading that from someone with your name I have to smile.
Well I forgive the great man because unlike O'Neill he won us a trophy or two!
-
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
Sorry, but after reading that from someone with your name I have to smile.
the air is so thick with irony you could cut it with a knife
-
I think peoples views of MON are certainly tainted for a while as the shock turns to anger.
It will take a while to be able to realistically assess his reign.
Bittersweet memories for me at the moment after Monday.
-
Thanks for the decent finishes.
Thanks for the season and a half of decent football.
No thanks for two years of mindnumbing cack at home.
No thanks for shopping exclusively in the overpriced home market then having the nerve to moan about money.
And no thanks at all for the spiteful way you fucked us up this week. Still, can't have your copy book blemished by having to use your noggin rather than spend your way out of a tight spot, so bollocks to us and off you go.
-
Let's stop the sanctimony and nit picking over my turn of phrase.
Ok, proud I have always been so don't question that (even through inference).
But let's not forget just how shit and low we were after Pug Nose Twunt departed. Plus we were (up until a season and a
half ago) a good team to watch again.
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
-
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
Sorry, but after reading that from someone with your name I have to smile.
Well I forgive the great man because unlike O'Neill he won us a trophy or two!
Without a doubt, but THAT's dumping on your club.
-
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked.
I think you'll see a lot more than just nit-picking over that comment and rightly so.
-
Thanks for the decent finishes.
Thanks for the season and a half of decent football.
No thanks for two years of mindnumbing cack at home.
No thanks for shopping exclusively in the overpriced home market then having the nerve to moan about money.
And no thanks at all for the spiteful way you fucked us up this week. Still, can't have your copy book blemished by having to use your noggin rather than spend your way out of a tight spot, so bollocks to us and off you go.
Got to agree with most of that to be honest, although I'd add thanks for the win at Old Trafford.
-
Let's stop the sanctimony and nit picking over my turn of phrase.
Ok, proud I have always been so don't question that (even through inference).
But let's not forget just how shit and low we were after Pug Nose Twunt departed. Plus we were (up until a season and a
half ago) a good team to watch again.
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
That would be the 'Young Doug' who has put £180 million into the club and genuinely given us four years of pride has it?
-
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
Sorry, but after reading that from someone with your name I have to smile.
Well I forgive the great man because unlike O'Neill he won us a trophy or two!
Without a doubt, but THAT's dumping on your club.
True!
-
Yeah thanks Martin, thanks for leaving us with Heskey.
-
Let's stop the sanctimony and nit picking over my turn of phrase.
Ok, proud I have always been so don't question that (even through inference).
But let's not forget just how shit and low we were after Pug Nose Twunt departed. Plus we were (up until a season and a
half ago) a good team to watch again.
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
That would be the 'Young Doug' who has put £180 million into the club and genuinely given us four years of pride has it?
Yeah 'Young Doug' is a ridiculous comment.
-
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked.
I think you'll see a lot more than just nit-picking over that comment and rightly so.
I didn't say don't nit pick this comment. Or am I being nit picky.
-
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
Young Doug? Christ.
-
Let's stop the sanctimony and nit picking over my turn of phrase.
Ok, proud I have always been so don't question that (even through inference).
But let's not forget just how shit and low we were after Pug Nose Twunt departed. Plus we were (up until a season and a
half ago) a good team to watch again.
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
That would be the 'Young Doug' who has put £180 million into the club and genuinely given us four years of pride has it?
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
-
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
The square root of fuck all, I believe is the phrase.
-
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
The square root of fuck all, I believe is the phrase.
Nothing at all? Is that correct? Or a best guess?
-
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/10/08/11/SOCCER_Celtic_Nightlead.html
Tommy Gemmell says Villa offered £5m for McGeady.
If that is Lerner's limit then where can Premier League players from? USA? Perhaps?
Selling the brand abroad is where the money comes from now.
Fallow couple of years ahead methinks..barring a miracle.
-
Ta for everything up to Moscow.
-
Has it been confirmed or officially denied anywhere that he wasn't going to be given the proceeds of the Milner sale?
-
Shame it ended the way it did. Great memories indeed but so bloody frustrating too.
omebody said bittersweet and I think that sums the whole thing up perfectly.
-
Let's stop the sanctimony and nit picking over my turn of phrase.
Ok, proud I have always been so don't question that (even through inference).
But let's not forget just how shit and low we were after Pug Nose Twunt departed. Plus we were (up until a season and a
half ago) a good team to watch again.
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
That would be the 'Young Doug' who has put £180 million into the club and genuinely given us four years of pride has it?
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
Sorry, but after reading that from someone with your name I have to smile.
Well I forgive the great man because unlike O'Neill he won us a trophy or two!
Without a doubt, but THAT's dumping on your club.
Are really incapable of imagining any scenario that would have made his position untenable?
-
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
The square root of fuck all, I believe is the phrase.
Wasn't there an interest fee loan? So the interest on the loan is what he put into the club. Maybe not the square root of fuck all but pretty damn close to fuck all. To say Lerner lacks ambition after the huge amounts he gave O'Neill to squander is ludicrous Kippax.
-
Has it been confirmed or officially denied anywhere that he wasn't going to be given the proceeds of the Milner sale?
Of course it hasn't, and it won't be, either way. Why would they confirm or deny something like that? Nothing in it.
-
Ta for everything up to Moscow.
I agree with this - I mentioned a season and a half ago we played decent football. People will say we have done this to death, but I do think this was a monumental error that he never got over and some of the players never forgave him for.
-
just getting the popcorn. Be right back.
-
Has it been confirmed or officially denied anywhere that he wasn't going to be given the proceeds of the Milner sale?
Of course it hasn't, and it won't be, either way. Why would they confirm or deny something like that? Nothing in it.
Ay, why so hostile towards me for asking the question. I think if the club denied that speculation, it would have helped. Because frankly, it could change the perception of the departure entirely.
-
Ta for everything up to Moscow.
I agree with this - I mentioned a season and a half ago we played decent football. People will say we have done this to death,
but I do think this was a monumental error that he never got over and some of the players never forgave him for.
I don't know if it was the players who never forgave him, but there was a point at which he started changing in the way he dealt with the fans, the way he reacted to them, and there was a point at which we started to hear more stories of him falling out with players.
I don't know if that was Moscow or not, but it sounds a bit too convenient for that to be the case.
I thought he got a lot of unfair stick for Moscow (mind you, i was sat in my living room watching it, not in Moscow, so it is easy for me to say that), and I thought he actually made the right call on it at the time, but I wonder whether it really was the point at which a number of things started going badly, or if it is just something we lump more importance on to now, with the benefit of hindsight.
-
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
The square root of fuck all, I believe is the phrase.
Nothing at all? Is that correct? Or a best guess?
He secured a loan, and bought shares which he later sold in 1979, presumably at a profit. From his return in 1982 he didn't put one single penny into the club.
-
Has it been confirmed or officially denied anywhere that he wasn't going to be given the proceeds of the Milner sale?
Of course it hasn't, and it won't be, either way. Why would they confirm or deny something like that? Nothing in it.
Ay, why so hostile towards me for asking the question. I think if the club denied that speculation, it would have helped. Because frankly, it could change the perception of the departure entirely.
Where's the hostility? There's certainly none implied.
I'm just saying, with a degree of cynicism, that we're not going to get confirmation of a detail like that from the club because it isn't really in their interest to do so. It's like with Milner when people were saying "why doesnt he just come out and say he wants to stay" - he wasn't going to do that, even if he did want to stay, because he had nothing to gain from saying it.
Even if we did make a statement on the Milner money, would you believe it? (Assuming you think they're being sparse with the truth, apols if i am reading that wrong).
We had the club make a statement through Gen Krulak yesterday, and people have chosen to believe what they want to believe.
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
-
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/scottishpremier/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/10/08/11/SOCCER_Celtic_Nightlead.html
Tommy Gemmell says Villa offered £5m for McGeady.
If that is Lerner's limit then where can Premier League players from? USA? Perhaps?
Selling the brand abroad is where the money comes from now.
Fallow couple of years ahead methinks..barring a miracle.
TBH £5 million for McGeady sounds about right.
If the board wouldn't sanction anymore than that, then fair play. It's about time some Quality Control kicked in.
We already have Downing, Ash and young Albrighton for the two wing spots, with Ireland (I know he's not a winger per se but he's played there -and he's closer to that than an orthodox CM) seemingly on the way.
Unless he was looking to offload Downing, it wasn't really a position we were crying out for.
£5 million was probably generous even. They could have just said 'no' full stop.
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
-
If Randy is Young Doug then MoN is most definitely a Deluxe Gregory.
-
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
The square root of fuck all, I believe is the phrase.
Nothing at all? Is that correct? Or a best guess?
He secured a loan, and bought shares which he later sold in 1979, presumably at a profit. From his return in 1982 he didn't put one single penny into the club.
Mr Lerner's company has advanced a loan to AVIL (or whatever the vehicle was) for the purchase of the club and subsequent investments. Are you seriously suggesting that he will not seek to recoup that loan in the event he has enough or, indeed, the most likely scenario will recoup it plus a sizeable profit when he sells the club on. I think that day could be sooner than we think.
-
Thanks for some great victories
For bringing the pride back to the club
For signing good players like Young, Collins, Milner
For telling Liverpool to fuck off
For giving Gabby a chance
For putting back in top 6
For getting close in cups last season
Who made mistakes but that not for this thread
-
How much did Doug (or his backers) put into the club in his first few years. This is a genuine question as I do not know the answer and of course the sums would have been relative to the day.
The square root of fuck all, I believe is the phrase.
Nothing at all? Is that correct? Or a best guess?
He secured a loan, and bought shares which he later sold in 1979, presumably at a profit. From his return in 1982 he didn't put one single penny into the club.
Mr Lerner's company has advanced a loan to AVIL (or whatever the vehicle was) for the purchase of the club and subsequent investments. Are you seriously suggesting that he will not seek to recoup that loan in the event he has enough or, indeed, the most likely scenario will recoup it plus a sizeable profit when he sells the club on. I think that day could be sooner than we think.
The only way he can recoup that loan if he decides he has had enough is it he can get enough money to cover what he paid for the club, and what he has subsequently invested, which is, what, 200m plus?
I wish him luck with that one.
What people seem to be missing with some of the panicky "oh no, he's going to be cheap and appoint Curbishley" stuff is that he's now protecting a vast investment he has made in the business. Get the appointment wrong, and the value of that investment goes in the wrong direction.
Not referring to you necessarily, but until Monday, there was, bar literallly two or three people, total approval of Lerner and co on here, built up over four years.
The manager walks out, we're told it is because he doesn't want to work on trimming the wage bill, and an amazing number of people are turning on the chairman and comparing him to Ellis.
That's disappointing. I also get the impression that he's going to make a decent appointment, support the manager (as he always has done) and we'll build on this, leaving quite a few people looking a bit daft following the last few days.
-
Mr Lerner's company has advanced a loan to AVIL (or whatever the vehicle was) for the purchase of the club and subsequent investments. Are you seriously suggesting that he will not seek to recoup that loan in the event he has enough or, indeed, the most likely scenario will recoup it plus a sizeable profit when he sells the club on. I think that day could be sooner than we think.
Randy has never made a secret of his financial arrangements; I've said from the off he wasn't in it purely for the good of his health. I would be amazed if 'that day' has even been considered yet and when it comes, if Randy makes anywhere near in percentage terms the profit from his investment that Doug made from his.
-
Ta for everything up to Moscow.
I agree with this - I mentioned a season and a half ago we played decent football. People will say we have done this to death,
but I do think this was a monumental error that he never got over and some of the players never forgave him for.
I don't know if it was the players who never forgave him, but there was a point at which he started changing in the way he dealt with the fans, the way he reacted to them, and there was a point at which we started to hear more stories of him falling out with players.
I don't know if that was Moscow or not, but it sounds a bit too convenient for that to be the case.
I thought he got a lot of unfair stick for Moscow (mind you, i was sat in my living room watching it, not in Moscow, so it is easy for me to say that), and I thought he actually made the right call on it at the time, but I wonder whether it really was the point at which a number of things started going badly, or if it is just something we lump more importance on to now, with the benefit of hindsight.
I've dug out the Luke Young quotes a few times, so I won't go down that path again.
But as much as the fans (or a fair percentage of them) were pissed off with the Moscow bottle job, the players probably felt it even more so.
Players want to test themselves at the best level possible, against the best and in the major competitions. Someone like Luke Young or a player similar in age might not get that opportunity again. To rob them of that, after they had progressed through the earlier rounds and started the season early would be viewed as a major slap in the face.
I understood the reasons for doing it. I even agreed that we needed to freshen things up a bit and rotate with the volume of games coming up. And that the odds were stacked against us even if we picked a full strength side out there. Resting one or two (or possibly three) might have been palatable. But giving debuts to Albrighton and Bannon and packing the side out with reserves amounted to a white flag. And that's what many fans and players found so hard to accept.
Even with a competitive squad out there, just resting one or two, we could have pulled it out of the bag. Our good form that year had been built on our away form. Even decent English sides were finding it hard to deal with us on the counter. It is by no means a foregone conclusion that we would have bowed out regardless.
-
If we'd beaten Stoke..............
-
Wins against SHA.
Semi finals against Blackburn.
Ashley Young.
Raised profile of the club.
Plenty more as well as some negatives.
Onwards and upwards.
-
Not saying I am turning on Randy. Just saying that to me he resembles a richer and quieter version of Doug. He bought the club cheaply, so had the money to invest. Seems to me that he has seen the Man Citeh scenario develop and thought we aren't going to break the top 4 so need to cut our cloth accordingly. And with that, his ambitions and ours are downgraded.
-
A thought. Would Randy have turned round virtually in mid-Atlantic and come back if his heart was no longer in the club?
-
A thought. Would Randy have turned round virtually in mid-Atlantic and come back if his heart was no longer in the club?
I haven't said his heart isn't in the club. I just believe he has downgraded his and our ambitions.
-
Jg's win percentage was better than O'Neills, and he won a few things and got to the FA cup final, and he spent less, and he didn't walk away when he couldn't cope, sadly.
Seems to me the Emperors followers are just as poor losers as the emperor was.
-
Not saying I am turning on Randy. Just saying that to me he resembles a richer and quieter version of Doug. He bought the club cheaply, so had the money to invest. Seems to me that he has seen the Man Citeh scenario develop and thought we aren't going to break the top 4 so need to cut our cloth accordingly. And with that, his ambitions and ours are downgraded.
It's one thing having the money to invest, plenty of people fell into that category.
Wanting and being prepared to invest it, though, is a different thing entirely
He's pumped a fortune in to us over the last four years. For the first time, he's asked MON to do something about the wage bill. Not balance it, not make incomings match outgoings, just to work on it.
In fact, weren't you largely of the opinion for most of last season that we had plenty of players not getting used, but costing us decent money? Apols if I am getting confused, I know you weren't a fan of the football by any stretch, but I thought you were amongst those who criticised the under use of some of those players.
Imagine what it must be like having to pay for them. Every manager in the league bar one has to juggle players. Redknapp is doing it now, and they're in the CL next season. It looks very much like MON didn't fancy having to do that.
-
If we'd beaten Stoke..............
If we'd been buzzing from a famous victory in Moscow what kind of impact and momentum might that have provided for the final push?
Instead of the backbiting and recriminations that started then. And never really stopped, truth be told.
-
He was taking us to the level of ambition the club declared and was funding. He had me believing we'd get there. £120m on players and £70m wages is enough for a good manager to begin challenging for CL places and trophies and we were beginning to do that.
-
Paulie, I can't remember what happened 5 minutes ago, nevermind what my thoughts were on squad players last season! No doubtu someone will dredge up some embarrassing quote.
-
He was taking us to the level of ambition the club declared and was funding. He had me believing we'd get there. £120m on players and £70m wages is enough for a good manager to begin challenging for CL places and trophies and we were beginning to do that.
One hundred and ninety million pounds. And counting.
-
in the last ten years, football fans have not only had to study tactics in football but you really need an A-level in business finance and media studies and for that reason i'm out!
-
in the last ten years, football fans have not only had to study tactics in football but you really need an A-level in business finance and media studies and for that reason i'm out!
A friend of mine said he gave up when he realised the fans were talking like accountants.
-
A thought. Would Randy have turned round virtually in mid-Atlantic and come back if his heart was no longer in the club?
I haven't said his heart isn't in the club. I just believe he has downgraded his and our ambitions.
If RL has and I doubt it long term, its only because of the fiscal problems created by Mon's policies, policies that left Celtic with the same headaches when he left to look after his wife.
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
Fifth highest points scorers since 1992 and the fifth highest average place.
-
He was taking us to the level of ambition the club declared and was funding. He had me believing we'd get there. £120m on players and £70m wages is enough for a good manager to begin challenging for CL places and trophies and we were beginning to do that.
One hundred and ninety million pounds. And counting.
One hundred and ninety million pounds spent on players?
-
There have been some great moments in the last 4 years, but also a lot of mistakes as well. When all said and done, he couldn't bear to be told what to do and didn't have the balls to see the job through.
MON will never get a better job and it's unlikely that Villa can attract another manager of his calibre. A sad end to another false dawn.
-
He was taking us to the level of ambition the club declared and was funding. He had me believing we'd get there. £120m on players and £70m wages is enough for a good manager to begin challenging for CL places and trophies and we were beginning to do that.
One hundred and ninety million pounds. And counting.
One hundred and ninety million pounds spent on players?
120 + 70 =?
-
...
For the first time, he's asked MON to do something about the wage bill. Not balance it, not make incomings match outgoings, just to work on it. ...
If there was any evidence that was the case I would agree wholeheartedly that he was a wanker.
-
He was taking us to the level of ambition the club declared and was funding. He had me believing we'd get there. £120m on players and £70m wages is enough for a good manager to begin challenging for CL places and trophies and we were beginning to do that.
One hundred and ninety million pounds. And counting.
One hundred and ninety million pounds spent on players?
120 + 70 =?
If the ambition is to be top four, that's the minimum cost, it's way below average. It almost certainly couldn't be done for less.
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
Fifth highest points scorers since 1992 and the fifth highest average place.
Those figures dont really tell the truth of how we finished season upon season tho do they .
9th/10th is probably a more realistic position .
-
Thanks for the memories, and a great big fuck you for screwing us over in the end.
If that's what he has done (and I have reason to doubt it). Doesn't mean we erase the memories. He made us feel proud of our
club again.
You have reason to doubt he walked out five days before the start of the season? And I never stopped feeling proud of my club.
Agreed. My pride in Aston Villa had nothing to do with Martin O'Neill.
For the record I'll remember some great games under O'Neill, and of course 4 derby victories over Small Heath. But I'll never forget how he fucked us over and walked out 5 days before the start of the season, which is possibly the most disgusting thing any Villa employee has ever done to our great club.
You mean you don't remember Steve Hodge.....?
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
Fifth highest points scorers since 1992 and the fifth highest average place.
Those figures dont really tell the truth of how we finished season upon season tho do they .
9th/10th is probably a more realistic position .
No, fifth is more realistic based on fact. Find me nine clubs who have done better than us.
-
He was taking us to the level of ambition the club declared and was funding. He had me believing we'd get there. £120m on players and £70m wages is enough for a good manager to begin challenging for CL places and trophies and we were beginning to do that.
One hundred and ninety million pounds. And counting.
One hundred and ninety million pounds spent on players?
120 + 70 =?
If the ambition is to be top four, that's the minimum cost, it's way below average. It almost certainly couldn't be done for less.
What about the idea of reining in the wages for the short term - ie hold tight this season, then get more money further down the line?
At some point, even if we had carried on spending big, surely those players least used, but who cost decent money, would be the ones to be moved on?
We can't keep throwing players in the mix like Man City, can we? Wages in excess of turnover?
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
Fifth highest points scorers since 1992 and the fifth highest average place.
Those figures dont really tell the truth of how we finished season upon season tho do they .
9th/10th is probably a more realistic position .
No, fifth is more realistic based on fact. Find me nine clubs who have done better than us.
How many times we finished in the top 5 the last 20 years ??
-
Beating Man U at their place, and Liverpool away, and Chelsea at VP, but as someone who lives in Digbeth and works in South East Brum, beating the B-lose again and again and again and so on... it is important when you work with so many of them! They have all had a laugh this week at work, my reply, even bets of £20 to five noses that we will finish above them this season. Bet we do!
-
How many times we finished in the top 5 the last 20 years ??
A couple. How many clubs have a better record than us?
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
Fifth highest points scorers since 1992 and the fifth highest average place.
Those figures dont really tell the truth of how we finished season upon season tho do they .
9th/10th is probably a more realistic position .
No, fifth is more realistic based on fact. Find me nine clubs who have done better than us.
How many times we finished in the top 5 the last 20 years ??
Four times.
Since 1990:
7th - 2 times
6th - 6 times
5th - 1 time
4th - 1 time
2nd - 2 times
That's half the last 20 seasons at least at sixth.
Don't get me wrong, sixth three times is not bad at all, and I don't think we "should" have broken the top four by now. But whilst sixth isn't bad, it is also by no means exceptional
if you wanted to sum Villa up over the last two decades, "sixth or thereabouts" is as good a description as any.
Look at this run, for example, from 1996 - 2002: 4th, 5th, 7th, 6th, 6th, 8th, 8th.
Take out 03 and O'Leary's two years of decline, plus O'Neill's first, and it is pretty much constant 6th or thereabouts right back 15 years.
-
...
What about the idea of reining in the wages for the short term - ie hold tight this season, then get more money further down the line?
At some point, even if we had carried on spending big, surely those players least used, but who cost decent money, would be the ones to be moved on?
We can't keep throwing players in the mix like Man City, can we? Wages in excess of turnover?
We have a club record transfer fee of £12m, we haven't been throwing players in the mix like Man City.
It seemed to me that everyone had accepted the new sell to buy policy
What's the problem? It now appears that it is a sell to reduce wages policy rather than sell to buy, that's means something else completely.
-
How many times we finished in the top 5 the last 20 years ??
A couple. How many clubs have a better record than us?
a couple ..!
there you go , your total points averaged out over 20 years tells a different story.
its very rare we finish in the top 5 , top 6 a hand full of times, more often than not over the past 20 years weve finshed 7th or lower .
I dont doubt were 5th in the total points league. but its position in the league table every season that counts & O'neill did better than average. IMO
-
...
What about the idea of reining in the wages for the short term - ie hold tight this season, then get more money further down the line?
At some point, even if we had carried on spending big, surely those players least used, but who cost decent money, would be the ones to be moved on?
We can't keep throwing players in the mix like Man City, can we? Wages in excess of turnover?
We have a club record transfer fee of £12m, we haven't been throwing players in the mix like Man City.
It seemed to me that everyone had accepted the new sell to buy policy
What's the problem? It now appears that it is a sell to reduce wages policy rather than sell to buy, that's means something else completely.
Christ. You don't half like to take things literally. I said we can not keep throwing players in the squad without losing some as well (ie as Man City do).
The club have said specifically that they wanted to look at the way the wages were going and make sure they were allocated correctly. What is wrong with that? If you can't even come to terms with that as a concept, then I'm afraid nothing but Man City style reckless abandon will be good enough for you.
Look at the comments the chairman made back at the start of the summer re sell to buy.
-
In fact, there's a question for you, VD.
Do you acknowledge that there might be a case for looking at the way we allocate our wages bill to ensure we're getting the best value?
-
...
For the first time, he's asked MON to do something about the wage bill. Not balance it, not make incomings match outgoings, just to work on it. ...
If there was any evidence that was the case I would agree wholeheartedly that he was a wanker.
I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that he had to get rid of some squad players to reduce the wage bill and to help fund new signings. You know, the sort of thing virtually every manager in the country has to do. I believe this was made clear to MON in May in the season review and plan for next.
I have no idea what sort of effort he put into this if any. It can't be much as we've only off loaded Shorey and that at a loss.
If MON hadn't got the stomach/capability/couldn't be arsed to carry out this part of his job he should have made it be known in May after his meeting instead of composing his resignation 5 days before the season started. That's where I have lost it with him like many other previous pro MON supporters.
To get back on topic he has a lot to be thanked for during his 4 years...
The victory at Old Trafford the pick of the lot for me.
-
there you go , your total points averaged out over 20 years tells a different story.
its very rare we finish in the top 5 , top 6 a hand full of times, more often than not over the past 20 years weve finshed 7th or lower .
We've finished in the top six more often than we've finished in the bottom half. There are four clubs who have a better average league position than us. How that equates to 9th or 10th on average is beyond me.
-
In fact, there's a question for you, VD.
Do you acknowledge that there might be a case for looking at the way we allocate our wages bill to ensure we're getting the best value?
I absolutely agree we should look at how we allocate our wage bill. I just think we should look at it from the perspective of how it affects our chances of competing for the CL and winning trophies.
-
...
For the first time, he's asked MON to do something about the wage bill. Not balance it, not make incomings match outgoings, just to work on it. ...
If there was any evidence that was the case I would agree wholeheartedly that he was a wanker.
I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that he had to get rid of some squad players to reduce the wage bill and to help fund new signings. You know, the sort of thing virtually every manager in the country has to do. I believe this was made clear to MON in May in the season review and plan for next.
I have no idea what sort of effort he put into this if any. It can't be much as we've only off loaded Shorey and that at a loss.
If MON hadn't got the stomach/capability/couldn't be arsed to carry out this part of his job he should have made it be known in May after his meeting instead of composing his resignation 5 days before the season started. That's where I have lost it with him like many other previous pro MON supporters.
To get back on topic he has a lot to be thanked for during his 4 years...
The victory at Old Trafford the pick of the lot for me.
I thought that Paul Faulkner was given responsibility for transfers when he was appointed CEO in May. I thought that was why O'Neill was having to refer the press to the Chairman/CEO when they asked about transfers.
Can anyone confirm or deny that?
-
there you go , your total points averaged out over 20 years tells a different story.
its very rare we finish in the top 5 , top 6 a hand full of times, more often than not over the past 20 years weve finshed 7th or lower .
We've finished in the top six more often than we've finished in the bottom half. There are four clubs who have a better average league position than us. How that equates to 9th or 10th on average is beyond me.
hate to be pedantic Dave but by your reckoning if Man utd were to win the league next season by 12 points to Chelsea , & then Chelsea were to win the following 9 titles by 1 point to Man utd ... Man Utd would have been the better over 10 years ??
we've finished 6th or better only 8 times in 20 years, top half 13, bottom half 7 times.
Average out all our seasons final finishing place over 20 years & it'll be a lot closer to 9th/10th than 5th ....
we'll have to agree to disagree i think .
-
MON picked the players subject to Faulkner's valuation of player and his wages? Sounds reasonable enough.
-
Average out all our seasons final finishing place over 20 years & it'll be a lot closer to 9th/10th than 5th ....
Do it then, and then do it for every other club and tell me who's better than us. And if you want to be pedantic it's four times bottom half in the Premier League, compared to nine top sixes.
-
On average we're the 5th placed side in the Premier League since it began, behind Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. We’re also 5th in terms of points.
I also believe that’s where we are in the average Football League places as well, 1888-1992, and as we all know, we’re the fourth most successful team in English football too.
So Dave is most definitely correct, 6th/5th is about where we have been for the past 20 years and pretty much where we’ve been for the past 100 odd.
-
It seemed to me that everyone had accepted the new sell to buy policy
There are 2 policies based on 'sell to buy'
The first is sell your top players and the second is sell your 'deadwood'
The media have been making it out to be the former and from your posts you are too. It would appear (and I believe it to be true) that Randy wants to follow the latter policy, other than stupid bids for your star players that are too good to turn down. I think most people on here believe that the second policy is the way the club want to move forward.
A well balanced wage bill can still build a good competitive squad. Granted, it will not win you the PL for the forceable future but football goes in cycles and something will happen to football in England in the future which will change the current structure. I cannot say what but something turns up that changes the landscape e.g. abolishment of maximum wage, Bosman, the Premier League etc. Perhaps the new squad restrictions might change it more than we currently think. A European league, a reduction in the number of CL places could all have an impact. You never know, we could pull out of the EU (doubt it mind) and that would have a dramatic effect on clubs.
-
MON seemed to have his supporters in the media that portray him in a certain way. It is strange, however, that when he was manager, his supporters in the media were never actively promoting Villa in their persuit of new players like they are with, say, Spurs and Ashley Young. The way how they try and talk players out of Villa never seemed to work the other way round.
-
Tommy Gemmell says Villa offered £5m for McGeady.
If that is Lerner's limit then where can Premier League players from? USA? Perhaps?
Selling the brand abroad is where the money comes from now.
Fallow couple of years ahead methinks..barring a miracle.
Or maybe we only offered that because a penny more would have been robbery on a scale of Barry Fry wanting £28m for Jonathan Hunt. Even £5m sounds overpriced for that pleb.
-
On reflection MON and indeed the rest of the staff at VP have done a great job building the infrastructure of the Club at all levels.
The image and profile of the club has risen over the last 4 years and predominantly because of the image projected of an harmonious club looking to build success both on and off the pitch
Indeed the working relationship between RL and MON was often referred to as the perfect couple when compared with other American Owners.
I have often advocated that the demise began from Moscow when MON or RL denied the players of the opportunity to play in Europe to contend for the 4th place in the PL. It was a policy that failed on all fronts. The lack of goodwill to the competition, the fall out from divided supporters opinions, the Moscow Dinner fiasco and the subsequent draw against Stoke thus scuppering the idea in the first place.
I'll always admire what MON did for us to begin with, some great games and results but we did become a one trick pony in the end and that was our undoing and progress had stagnated.
The timing isn't good but at least we now have some fresh hope.
The players have a lot to answer for and they should go out on Saturday and start answering them.
A bit of joie de vivre and a bit of luck will nab us 3 points and at least put a smile back on our faces.
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bb4Qq66k_4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bb4Qq66k_4)
-
My favourite victories under MON:
Derby 0-6 Villa
Villa 2-0 Chavski
Villa 5-1 small heath
Everton 2-3 Villa
Arsenal 0-2 Villa
Liverpool 1-3 Villa
United 0-1 Villa
Lots of great games and memories of O'Neill - I do feel people are going a bit OTT. OK, he was annoying at times, and has left at a really bad time, but you can't say he hasn't turned us around as a team. He has taken us far and hopefully our next manager can take us that step closer to Champions League football.
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
True, but I'm sure I heard you say on the radio that no other Villa manager has achieved three successive top six finishes. He deserves some credit for that, no matter how much he spent.
-
I think there are a lot of things to remember him fondly by - the derbies, the win at Old Trafford, getting so many Villa players into or on the fringes of the England team, starting the job of extremely well (the first 6th was excellent, the second a tad unlucky, the third somewhat negligent), being someone I could be proud to call the Villa manager.
On the other hand I can't help feeling that this period will be looked back on as the best chance we'll have had to break into the top echelon, and we've failed. Not all O'Neill's fault (see Man City) but as he's had what seems like total control over what he spent and how he's used those resources then that's where I feel most of the accountability lies (though a case can be sketched in for the owner appointing more football-savvy board members to keep an oversight on these matters).
Edit: And ultimately leaving us in a totally unacceptable way.
-
I think there are a lot of things to remember him fondly by - the derbies, the win at Old Trafford, getting so many Villa players into or on the fringes of the England team, starting the job of extremely well (the first 6th was excellent, the second a tad unlucky, the third somewhat negligent), being someone I could be proud to call the Villa manager.
On the other hand I can't help feeling that this period will be looked back on as the best chance we'll have had to break into the top echelon, and we've failed. Not all O'Neill's fault (see Man City) but as he's had what seems like total control over what he spent and how he's used those resources then that's where I feel most of the accountability lies (though a case can be sketched in for the owner appointing more football-savvy board members to keep an oversight on these matters).
Edit: And ultimately leaving us in a totally unacceptable way.
I'd agree with this. Almost word for word.
-
If we'd beaten Stoke..............
If we'd been buzzing from a famous victory in Moscow what kind of impact and momentum might that have provided for the final push?
Instead of the backbiting and recriminations that started then. And never really stopped, truth be told.
It's fair to say that the Moscow gamble / calculated risk was probably the first point at which he lost the support of a number of people, but it can't be denied that when the big refereeing decisions came around last season, Villa and MON had stinking luck.
If Vidic had been sent off after 5 minutes...
If Webb had given a penalty for Mikel's foul on Gabby, Terry had seen red instead of yellow for attempting a mid-game leg-removal of James Milner and Deco had received his second caution for the cynical foul on Petrov immediately after that...
How different this Summer might have been with a cup win. Going somewhat off-topic, consider also what can be viewed as similar pivotal of points in Fergiescum's career:
If ManUre hadn't beaten Palace in that FA Cup Final...
If Cantona hadn't fallen out with Wilkinson and Fergie called him at just the right time...
If Keane had gone to Blackburn as he'd given his word to do and not been kidnapped by Fergie until he signed for them instead...
If Schmeichel hadn't kept them even in contention "that magical night in Barcelona"...
I'm not suggesting the two managers are on a par, but there's been enough times when things have REALLY gone the Scotsman's way to suggest he might have done a deal with the REAL Red Devil.
-
Thanks for some great victories
For bringing the pride back to the club
For signing good players like Young, Collins, Milner
For telling Liverpool to fuck off
For giving Gabby a chance
For putting back in top 6
For getting close in cups last season
Who made mistakes but that not for this thread
Great post Richard. Really enjoyed that. And as Mazrim said, same to Nick Lees' too.
-
He took us back to where we've been, on average, for the past twenty years. His time at Villa was like every other part of that period, just without the ups and downs.
I think he took us above our average over the last 20 years to be fair .
Fifth highest points scorers since 1992 and the fifth highest average place.
I didn't think you bought into the whole football started in 1992, Dave?! 8)
I assume those figures include MON's four seasons in charge, don't they? Anybody got an idea of how things stood for the period post-1992 before he took charge?
-
For some Mon will be the best manager ever, he has that kind of aura surrounding him, a bit like Liverpool still being the biggest club, or Newcastle United having the best and most loyal fans in the world!
When commenting on Mon's time at Villa all we can seem to come up with is a list of a few good results and couple of good cup runs, I think we can all say that about pretty much all our recent managers.
Mon gave us some good results for sure but he also gave us some dross, now to make an accountants analogy...
(average results) x (average league place) x (average cup performances) x (zero trophy's) = average manager [or is my maths wrong]
And to compare Randy to Doug Ego [sorry Ellis] is rediculous
Just my view
-
My overriding memory will be of the early days under him. When it seemed like we had woken from a bad dream. Ellis on the way out, a new billionaire owner and MON was the final piece in the jigsaw.
It was almost religious!
That it didn't turn out that way was sad although obvious when you think about it that it couldn't be that good. However, the excitementof the early days etc. will be my memory.
Having said that, now the shock has worn off its certainly going to be interesting again now.
-
Surprised anyone has a good word to say about the man especially his devotees on here who invested hours defending him the last 3 years only to have him abandon them and shuffle off at the first sign of the money running out - thats gotta hurt to know he thinks that little of you. Forget Barry or Yorke, MON has set a new standard of self-interest and cowardice. Doug's final joke on us.
-
Surprised anyone has a good word to say about the man especially his devotees on here who invested hours defending him the last 3 years only to have him abandon them and shuffle off at the first sign of the money running out - thats gotta hurt to know he thinks that little of you. Forget Barry or Yorke, MON has set a new standard of self-interest and cowardice. Doug's final joke on us.
I like this
-
I'll always have fond memories of him, he beat that lot at will and we had some fantastic victories at Man Utd, Liverpool and some great days out. Shame it ended the way it did but hey ho.
-
Some great MON memories.
Best one for me was being at the Emirates for his first game in charge. I still couldn't believe we'd got him at Villa.
Arsenal's first game at their soulless new mega-bowl, fantastic atmosphere created by the Villa fans, Arsenal fans staring enviously at the Villa fans' party, Olly scoring the first ever league goal at the new place, manic - absolutely manic celebrations when it went in, coming within a whisker of winning, glorious sunny day, pissed as a fart, Villa fans all over London. Thinking that we were at the start of something very special.
I don't imagine that gregnash could have fully appreciated the mood of the fans that day from his laptop
Not nearly up there with Taylor's last game at Everton, but a great day still
-
Surprised anyone has a good word to say about the man especially his devotees on here who invested hours defending him the last 3 years only to have him abandon them and shuffle off at the first sign of the money running out - thats gotta hurt to know he thinks that little of you. Forget Barry or Yorke, MON has set a new standard of self-interest and cowardice. Doug's final joke on us.
You know, it would be easy to just ignore this as the immature 'told you so' type of thing it is. But as someone who defended our previous manager against what I saw as unfair criticism, I think doing so suggests we're hiding and that you're right.
I take nothing back that I have said in the past about his signings, his style of football or his 'success' as our manager. I think he was doing most things right and had us on the right track and sincerely hope that a lot of what he has brought to the club is carried on by the new man. Should he do that and add the parts we were missing, then we'll be a VERY big threat to the CL places.
As for him leaving us, I think the timing was awful and although I think there may be more to come out over the 'why', it has brought him down in my estimation. But that's my opinion of him as a man, where as our usual debates are over his virtues as a football manager. And in that respect my opinion has not changed.
-
Surprised anyone has a good word to say about the man especially his devotees on here who invested hours defending him the last 3 years only to have him abandon them and shuffle off at the first sign of the money running out - thats gotta hurt to know he thinks that little of you. Forget Barry or Yorke, MON has set a new standard of self-interest and cowardice. Doug's final joke on us.
Haha, I was surprisingly with you up until the final sentence, but you had to throw that grenade into the mix, didn't you!
-
Please do not feed the troll.
-
Some great MON memories.
Best one for me was being at the Emirates for his first game in charge. I still couldn't believe we'd got him at Villa.
Arsenal's first game at their soulless new mega-bowl, fantastic atmosphere created by the Villa fans, Arsenal fans staring enviously at the Villa fans' party, Olly scoring the first ever league goal at the new place, manic - absolutely manic celebrations when it went in, coming within a whisker of winning, glorious sunny day, pissed as a fart, Villa fans all over London. Thinking that we were at the start of something very special.
I don't imagine that gregnash could have fully appreciated the mood of the fans that day from his laptop
Not nearly up there with Taylor's last game at Everton, but a great day still
I too was there for that. Thanks Chico.
MON has delivered the best consecutive three league finishes of any Villa manager since WW2 ( the quirky Little/Gregory nexus rivalled it). None of us should forget that.
At Villa, our genorosity of spirit to departing managers and players is in notoriously short supply, and i share other's disastisfaction with the manner of MON's departure. But he delivered the goods in the League, the results prove that.
-
He got 3 top 6 finishes spending more money than any previous manager, and more time than any manager since Saunders. If Lerner handed him 80 odd million and asked him to make us a top 6 team then he was a success. My guess is Randy was expecting a bit more return for his money, i know i would be.
-
I am, like most, disappointed by the timing of MON's departure. I think he should have gone or been pushed in May, or stuck it out with the squad he built.
But in terms of memories, I think we have to thank him for getting us back challenging towards the top.
All these comparisons of our finishes since 1992 are a load of rubbish.
The league is completely different now, with CL places, more teams with multi-millionaire owners etc.
There was a time not too long ago when a newly promoted team like Ipswich could sneak into 5th.
MON, very quickly turned us from relegation candidates into European qualifiers. No one can deny that.
Yes he spent a lot of money, but to do the above he needed to. He inhereted a poor squad with virtually no sell on value that needed to be rebuilt.
We have seen other clubs throw money around and failing miserably, MON did not.
We came up just short on finishing 4th and that may well be his legacy. But I think to have got us as close as he did was some achievement.
-
I've been going regurlarly to the Villa since 1978 and still think MON has been one of the best managers I've seen at the club and he will certainly be a hard act to follow.
Despite the obvious frustrations with MON (Being stubborn, not playing a proper right back, not rotating the squad etc, etc) I have always felt optimistic about Villa with him as manager.
I certainly can't remember that being the case to often over the past 30 years.
-
For me the 5-1 against Small Heath
6-0 against Derby
3-1 Liverpool
3-0 Sheff utd
-
Thanks for the memories Martin and we had loads of them for once I had friends who were utd ,scouse and chelsea fans talking about villa as a force and how we had some great players , words which id never really had in quite a few years, for every match I was really full of excitement and anticipation and we really feared nobody....
He did bring the club forward in leaps and bounds all the haters can beleive that PR backed piece of shit the General and Randy put out all they like were now a midtable team as Randy has lost his bottle ....
The full truth will come out no doubt further down the line one day, anybody in the game who talks of Martin or has played for him says hes a man of principle and in the end he obviously felt let down by the board and was told conflicting things about how the club goes forward ....yes he spent money but we had a billionaire owner and thats what clubs breaking in2 the top4 have to do spurs have spent bucket loads 2 get in there and wasted shit loads on crap signings aswell over the years but they finished 6 points above us thats how close it was last year .......
I think leaving now or 5 games makes no difference at all because if your leaving you just go thats it , all this leaving us in the shit talk goin on thats just an excuse to hate him more and blacken his name managers 99% of the time are sacked or step down leaving the club in the shit what was he supposed to do play 10 games then step down after addressing his successor to his duties personally ....
But now we must march on and if this is a blessing in disguise then I think he did a great job on the whole and now to fully suppport the new guy in charge ....
well feel free to shoot me down now people after all this is a forum for peoples opinions and im glad ive got mine out there....Up the villa !
-
Oh, and I don't recall a Villa side being anywhere near as robust away from home. This was excellent. If we could have matched that robustness at home he'd have cracked it.
-
He got 3 top 6 finishes spending more money than any previous manager, and more time than any manager since Saunders. If Lerner handed him 80 odd million and asked him to make us a top 6 team then he was a success. My guess is Randy was expecting a bit more return for his money, i know i would be.
Last year Deloitte quote the following incomes for our competitors:Man U £268m,Arsenal £216m,Chelsea £199m,Liverpool £178m...............ours? Around £80m, so our income annually is £100m less as a minimum, than allof our top four rivals, excluding Man City who have spent over £200m in the transfer market, which puts MON's net spend into perspective.
Yes some money was wasted, yes his use of it was baffling at times, but the end result, the best consecutive three season top flight finish of any post WW2 manager is a matter of record.
-
He got 3 top 6 finishes spending more money than any previous manager, and more time than any manager since Saunders. If Lerner handed him 80 odd million and asked him to make us a top 6 team then he was a success. My guess is Randy was expecting a bit more return for his money, i know i would be.
Last year Deloitte quote the following incomes for our competitors:Man U £268m,Arsenal £216m,Chelsea £199m,Liverpool £178m...............ours? Around £80m, so our income annually is £100m less as a minimum, than allof our top four rivals, excluding Man City who have spent over £200m in the transfer market, which puts MON's net spend into perspective.
Yes some money was wasted, yes his use of it was baffling at times, but the end result, the best consecutive three season top flight finish of any post WW2 manager is a matter of record.
we've always been miles behind the income of big clubs though, but we certainly didn't spend like we were miles behind them during MON's reign. the likes of Little, BFR and GT got us higher or won us trophies with far less to spend. That is also a matter of record.
-
Back on topic, Greg
What's your best MON memory?
-
That is a matter of record but the prices paid for top class players has grown since them times ....signings are on the whole are more expensive then they were in them days apart from Bosko Balaban lol
times change ...fees are dictated by the market really ....I thought Draper for what was it around 3.65 million was a big big signing a few years ago you would pay that for a squad player these days
-
You always need to balance the comparisons with other manager's spend and achievements with scale of fees and funds of those times. BFR bought both Townsend and Saunders for over £2m at a time when the record transfer in the UK was £3-4m. Our spending now needs to be viewed alongside the spend of Man City and the CL clubs. Simply ignoring this and saying 'he spent more than anyone else' is idiotic and does not win any arguments.
-
You always need to balance the comparisons with other manager's spend and achievements with scale of fees and funds of those times. BFR bought both Townsend and Saunders for over £2m at a time when the record transfer in the UK was £3-4m. Our spending now needs to be viewed alongside the spend of Man City and the CL clubs. Simply ignoring this and saying 'he spent more than anyone else' is idiotic and does not win any arguments.
even taking into account inflation, he's still spent more than any manager. No other manager EVER had that luxury
-
we've always been miles behind the income of big clubs though, but we certainly didn't spend like we were miles behind them during MON's reign. the likes of Little, BFR and GT got us higher or won us trophies with far less to spend. That is also a matter of record.
None of those managers achieved, or bettered, three consecutive six finishes.
The income gap in cash terms, and percentage terms is far greater now than in the 90's. You are not comparing like with like. Yes there have been one off finishes higher, but MON deleivered a consistency we have not achieved for over 65 years. The Cups? we were a dodgy reffing decision away from winning the LC Final against the third richest club in the world, and lost an FA Cup semi Final to the Double Winners.
-
even taking into account inflation, he's still spent more than any manager. No other manager EVER had that luxury
Equally, no Villa manager has ever had to compete with a greater financial gap to our rivals both in terms of ablity to pay top transfer fees, and wages.
-
Back on topic, Greg
What's your best MON memory?
His resignation :0)
-
even taking into account inflation, he's still spent more than any manager. No other manager EVER had that luxury
Equally, no Villa manager has ever had to compete with a greater financial gap to our rivals both in terms of ablity to pay top transfer fees, and wages.
I'd say both GT and dol had a far greater gap between what we could pay and what our rivals could.
-
even taking into account inflation, he's still spent more than any manager. No other manager EVER had that luxury
Little broke our transfer record twice in one summer and Gregory had a big spending spree with the floatation money. Direct comparisons aren't easy as the inflation can fluctuate dramatically and although nobody can argue MOn wasn't backed well by Randy, to say you'd expect more than 6th with our present spend compared to our rivals is wrong, IMO.
-
His resignation :0)
Predictable response
Somebody starts a thread about positive memories of O'Neill and in less than 1 page you've hijacked it. There are plenty of parallel threads running on here where you can indulge your hatred of MON, why try and ruin the 1 thread that simply invites people to post their good memories?
-
I'd say both GT and dol had a far greater gap between what we could pay and what our rivals could.
With Dolly, and GT ( this time around) i would agree. And neither produced MON's level of results.
-
His resignation :0)
Predictable response
Somebody starts a thread about positive memories of O'Neill and in less than 1 page you've hijacked it. There are plenty of parallel threads running on here where you can indulge your hatred of MON, why try and ruin the 1 thread that simply invites people to post their good memories?
it was a flippant remark chico, not to be taken terribly seriously. His first two seasons, and some of his early transfer dealings - i'll give him credit for that. Unfortunately its a bit early for me to view his reign as any more than a mistake. But by all means praise away - I'll say no more.
-
The Arsenal game at home was a cracker, we battered them but somehow found ourselves 2-0 down, enter Zat Knight and his last gasp equalizer.
-
I find it ironic that MO'N is considered to be a satanic figure for resigning leaving the club in quite a healthy state (on the pitch) yet BFR is still utterly revered in most quarters. The difference being, the latter was sacked by the 'maniacle' Doug, despite only securing 43 points from his last 42 games in charge of the club and leaving it in a worse state with 7 or 8 over 30 has beens in the side.
-
The Chelsea away 4-4 game on boxing day a few years ago. Sheer magic!
-
Average out all our seasons final finishing place over 20 years & it'll be a lot closer to 9th/10th than 5th ....
Do it then, and then do it for every other club and tell me who's better than us. And if you want to be pedantic it's four times bottom half in the Premier League, compared to nine top sixes.
Like i said we'll agree to differ.
whichever way you look at it more often than not over the last 20 years 4/5/6 or more clubs have finished above us in the league table each season .
-
Loads of positives for me:
1. The sheer anticipation and excitement when he was appointed. It was the first day of a holiday for me and capped a great feeling of leaving work for 10 days.
2. 2 weeks later watching our team of Dolly's ne'er do wells hold on for a 1-1 draw at the Emurates. And Mellberg scoring the first proper goal there, not an Arsenal player.
3. His record in local derbies. Obviously the creme de la creme was the 5-1, though Chico won the lottery with that one as I had to drive whilst he popped 4 cans on the route back to London. I'm sure I paid the petrol too...
4. Three consecutive top 6 finishes.
5. Our away form - as good as it's been in the top flight in my life
6. Becoming a really tough team to beat and opposing fans fearing us.
7. Knowing that we could actually beat anybody on our day. Who was our last manager to record wins over Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea? (genuine question, not rhetorical)
8. Getting us to Wembley twice, a ground we have graced far too infrequently in my life time. And in my opinion, putting in decent performances in both games.
9. Having a team spirit that could keep us going to the end - I have cracking memories of the 2nd half performances, with team and crowd pulling together, at home v Arsenal in both 2007 and 2008. And the sheer ecstacy of Zat Knight's equaliser was as good as I can remember feeling at a home draw.
10. Helping us to be viewed fondly by both the media and many neutrals. So many people have talked admiringly of the Villa to me in the past 4 years - and I've lived in London or Shanghai all that time.
11. Building a team which attracted the highest average crowds I can remember in my life.
I have a fear, hopefully unfounded, that we will be like those Charlton fans who were bemoaning the fact that Curbishley had hit a glass ceiling 5 years ago and now enjoy their away days to Trumpton FC.
If I ever meet him I will shake his hand and thank him for the above. Then ask him if that bastard Kenny Burns did handle the ball on the line at Villa Park in 1978 as Forest waltzed towards the title.
-
Chico won the lottery with that one as I had to drive whilst he popped 4 cans on the route back to London. I'm sure I paid the petrol too...
You did pay for the petrol. Although my hi-octane, 5-star, Stella-rised company all the way backl to the Smoke more than compensated you.
Reminds me, didn't David Gold overtake us in his Roller on the motorway on the way up for that game?
-
Chico won the lottery with that one as I had to drive whilst he popped 4 cans on the route back to London. I'm sure I paid the petrol too...
You did pay for the petrol. Although my hi-octane, 5-star, Stella-rised company all the way backl to the Smoke more than compensated you.
Reminds me, didn't David Gold overtake us in his Roller on the motorway on the way up for that game?
You're right, I had forgotten that. Shame we never saw him on the way back down as you could have chucked a can of Chico piss at him and melted his windscreen wipers.
-
Like i said we'll agree to differ.
whichever way you look at it more often than not over the last 20 years 4/5/6 or more clubs have finished above us in the league table each season .
You can't name them, can you?
-
The dust has become to settle from his untimely departure for which he will be roundly criticised -
Without doubt he has taken us to the next level and almost, but not quite put silverware on the table-
More positive than negative memories in all honesty -
Highlights include that memorable 3-2 win at Goodison, for me the Moscow no show was the beginning
of the end -
Very much his own man which is admirable but blinkered in that he didn't appear to learn from errors let
alone admit to any -
Whilst his motivation skills have been widely applauded I have to wonder why he clearly had fallouts with
players who suffered the consequences till the day he left -
It's been four years with MON - the time has flown and so now has the man heralded by many as a 'messiah' -
Can't say I'm bothered with any explanation he might offer or pay any interest to any future position he takes up
in football, my attention will be fully focused on the immediate and future fortunes of our club
-
I think the phenomenal away record will stay in the memory for me. It's probably as long
ago as the championship season that I was confident we would get a result in pretty
much every away game we played.
Over four seasons and 76 league games, we only lost 22, and won just about everywhere but Chelsea.
-
Don't know why but that Everton game, when Ashley scored in the last minute is still one of my favourite Villa memories.
Can argue until the cows come home about how good MON was, for Villa , and for himself, all i know is in the last 30 years he is only one of 2 managers who lifted the club immediately, shook us down, and made us think "We are Aston Villa, we are a big club, lets realise it and lets act on it".
We ARE a big club, and sometimes we are a bit self-depreciating, time to act big, we have as good a squad as we have ever had, and regardless of what he has and has'nt bought, you have to thank MON for that.
Thanks MON, i enjoyed the ride, and am looking foward to the next one.
-
Our awesome record against the noses
Chelsea 4 - 4
Playing Arsenal off the pitch a few times
Getting results at Chelsea when everyone else never beat them
Breaking the Man utd Hex
Everton
A trip to Wembley
There was a sense of pride when he turned down the England job to stay with us too.
-
Loads of positives for me:
1. The sheer anticipation and excitement when he was appointed. It was the first day of a holiday for me and capped a great feeling of leaving work for 10 days.
2. 2 weeks later watching our team of Dolly's ne'er do wells hold on for a 1-1 draw at the Emurates. And Mellberg scoring the first proper goal there, not an Arsenal player.
3. His record in local derbies. Obviously the creme de la creme was the 5-1, though Chico won the lottery with that one as I had to drive whilst he popped 4 cans on the route back to London. I'm sure I paid the petrol too...
4. Three consecutive top 6 finishes.
5. Our away form - as good as it's been in the top flight in my life
6. Becoming a really tough team to beat and opposing fans fearing us.
7. Knowing that we could actually beat anybody on our day. Who was our last manager to record wins over Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea? (genuine question, not rhetorical)
8. Getting us to Wembley twice, a ground we have graced far too infrequently in my life time. And in my opinion, putting in decent performances in both games.
9. Having a team spirit that could keep us going to the end - I have cracking memories of the 2nd half performances, with team and crowd pulling together, at home v Arsenal in both 2007 and 2008. And the sheer ecstacy of Zat Knight's equaliser was as good as I can remember feeling at a home draw.
10. Helping us to be viewed fondly by both the media and many neutrals. So many people have talked admiringly of the Villa to me in the past 4 years - and I've lived in London or Shanghai all that time.
11. Building a team which attracted the highest average crowds I can remember in my life.
I have a fear, hopefully unfounded, that we will be like those Charlton fans who were bemoaning the fact that Curbishley had hit a glass ceiling 5 years ago and now enjoy their away days to Trumpton FC.
If I ever meet him I will shake his hand and thank him for the above. Then ask him if that bastard Kenny Burns did handle the ball on the line at Villa Park in 1978 as Forest waltzed towards the title.
A fitting tribute Monsieur McMahon.
I really thought we could have made more progress this season so I'm disappointed he's gone. I think he should have embraced the challenging circumstances we find ourselves in because I believe he had the ability to do so. I suppose I'm more disappointed in him than anything else.
-
best memory easy peasy 5-1 against the scum .
-
The 07/08 season will be an all-time favourite for me. We were banging them in for fun that year and it's very rare I've been able to say that about the Villa.
The Everton game 08/09 (or at least the last 30 seconds of it) I will be surprised and delighted if I ever feel that elation in a football stadium again
-
The Everton game 08/09 (or at least the last 30 seconds of it) I will be surprised and delighted if I ever feel that elation in a football stadium again
MON's teams provided a few similar occasions - coming back against Reading and Blackburn in the cup games and Barry's equalising penalty in the 4-4 at Stamford Bridge, for example - though I agree with you that the Everton game was special. Even more than that, however, I'll remember the excitement and euphoria of his appointment and the heady weeks that followed. I just couldn't believe that this was happening to Aston Villa.
Like many others, I thought that he had achieved as much with us as he was ever likely to and would probably leave at the end of or during the coming season, but the appalling timing of his departure has lost him a lot of respect and affection. For a time it seemed that history might regard him as one of the great Villa managers and that will now not be the case, but he certainly gave us some great memories.
-
Martin O'Neill's Aston Villa tenure: in pictures
A look back at the 58-year-old's reign at Villa Park over the past four seasons, in the wake of his resignation
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/gallery/2010/aug/09/aston-villa-martin-o-neill-gallery#/?picture=365589802&index=0
-
I'm gutted he's gone, we have been a very good team at times under Martin. I wish he gambled a bit more at times but saying that he brought a lot of stability to the team. We have had some great moments under him.
I remember waking up during a holiday with the mrs and my baby daughter in Scotland to hear Martin was our new boss. I couldn't believe it, the excitement was back!
Iv'e had 2 more children during his reign at Villa so I have been unable to come up to the Villa and not witnessed his team in the flesh.
He has left us in good state, very bad timing which could have been avoided but I'm sure Randy will bring someone in to do a good job and progress can still be made. Hopefully as my kids get older I can get up to the Villa more and more and be a part of it again.
-
I think there are a lot of things to remember him fondly by - the derbies, the win at Old Trafford, getting so many Villa players into or on the fringes of the England team, starting the job of extremely well (the first 6th was excellent, the second a tad unlucky, the third somewhat negligent), being someone I could be proud to call the Villa manager.
On the other hand I can't help feeling that this period will be looked back on as the best chance we'll have had to break into the top echelon, and we've failed. Not all O'Neill's fault (see Man City) but as he's had what seems like total control over what he spent and how he's used those resources then that's where I feel most of the accountability lies (though a case can be sketched in for the owner appointing more football-savvy board members to keep an oversight on these matters).
Edit: And ultimately leaving us in a totally unacceptable way.
Amen
-
5-1 against the blues was fab but for me the win at Old Trafford was priceless.
Pity that the memories of the last 4 years will be all about MON and not the Villa.
I hope the next era will be more about the Villa and less about one man.
-
blf
Don't know why but that Everton game, when Ashley scored in the last minute is still one of my favourite Villa memories
.
I watched that at home on telly and I've still got the red wine stain on the ceiling from when I chucked the glass in the air when the winner went in. And I screamed that loud that my daughter cried.
Fantastic!
-
blf
Don't know why but that Everton game, when Ashley scored in the last minute is still one of my favourite Villa memories
.
I watched that at home on telly and I've still got the red wine stain on the ceiling from when I chucked the glass in the air when the winner went in. And I screamed that loud that my daughter cried.
Fantastic!
I will never forget that day. Was in a bad way over breaking up with my first proper girlfriend, was really down in the dumps and that win just lifted my spirits. Watched with in my parents house which makes it all the more special. One of the best memories I have.
-
Yeah it was fantastic. Me and the missus were jumping round the living room like we'd won the lottery.
-
blf
Don't know why but that Everton game, when Ashley scored in the last minute is still one of my favourite Villa memories
.
I watched that at home on telly and I've still got the red wine stain on the ceiling from when I chucked the glass in the air when the winner went in. And I screamed that loud that my daughter cried.
Fantastic!
I remember not even cheering, i was just pointing at the screen, laughing and saying "fucking hell fucking hell fucking hell!" over and over again.
-
Last season's 0-1 win at the Sty sticks in my memory as I watched it with 2 year old nephew. He got really excited when we were jumping up and down at the goal and he joined in. His Dad's a Bluenose.
-
I remember last season when Luke Young came on as a sub! ohhhh memories.
-
More than anything, his teams never stopped trying, (forever chasing after the ball) until the final whistle. Say what you want about a divided dressing room/unhappy players but out on the pitch they gave their all.
Sheff Utd at home, Everton away, Arsenal at home (2-2), Liverpool away (3-1) were the stand out games for me. I missed the OT win.
His support and encouragement for Gabby deserves a mention too.
Beating the Rags. Always nice.
-
blf
Don't know why but that Everton game, when Ashley scored in the last minute is still one of my favourite Villa memories
.
I watched that at home on telly and I've still got the red wine stain on the ceiling from when I chucked the glass in the air when the winner went in. And I screamed that loud that my daughter cried.
Fantastic!
I remember not even cheering, i was just pointing at the screen, laughing and saying "fucking hell fucking hell fucking hell!" over and over again.
Close to my reaction that. I had been saying to my son for about ten minutes before that Everton were going to equalise, and of course they did, I was still going through the repertoire of "Fucking typicals" when Ash popped in the winner, all I could say was "Fuck me" it was that unexpected.
-
his first home game against Reading tho not soley down to O'neill, but O'niell & Learner .
but that night there was a buzz about Villa Park that had been missing for years.
-
Last season's 0-1 win at the Sty sticks in my memory as I watched it with 2 year old nephew. He got really excited when we were jumping up and down at the goal and he joined in. His Dad's a Bluenose.
Was just quietly seething when their second went in. All so, so predictable.
Then violently shaking the laptop, shouting at it and generally acting like a Highcroft job in front of my missus when the third went in.
-
Being at Wembley, needing a goal and bringing on..........Heskey
-
This is very interesting, and the chap who starts talking on 1.30 or so is spot on. This is almost the first time I've ever seen him discussed like this.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Posting here as it has relevance to us looking back, too.
-
The revelation that, after a Sunday match, we'd not get together until Thursday I find shocking.
-
Good post, Paulie.
Now, how do we go viral with it?! - people need to see / hear that.
-
Blimey, vindication! Inflexible tactically, unimaginative transfer-wise, spends a lot to little effect, plays dull football and will only take you so far. The naysayers were 3 years ahead of their time.
-
The revelation that, after a Sunday match, we'd not get together until Thursday I find shocking.
Yes, not something that RL would have been used to seeing at the Browns I suspect.
Smacks of complacency and arrogance by MON, and it probably partly explains why we would run out of steam by March.
-
Very good clip and a lot of truth spoken .
-
Was this an episode of Myth Busters? And I wonder if he's called his lawyers yet.
-
Like it. Off to post it elsewhere. Thank you, paulie.
-
A lot of nails hit on the head by those learned media guys.
The amount of times I have to explain to non Villa fans (or even Villa fans you are not as emotionally involved with the club) that O'Neil left us in the crap, he overspent and he was behind times, are numerous.
-
Scales
Falling
From
Eyes
-
On our way back from Swindon on the train last night my son related the story to a young very dedicated Villa fan of the relationship O'Neill has built up over the years with media commentators and journalists. It even got me thinking and I have heard the story many times.
-
Waiting for the first "I'd take regular 6th place finishes right now" type post.....
-
John Cross is on talkshite quite a bit,and talks a lot of sense for someone who's on T.S.
-
In retrospect he was an unmittigated disaster for which we will still be suffering for a long time yet, still think that Randy has to carry blame for not having football people on the board to keep him in check.We would have been dismayed if we had got Pardew but he would have done a better job.
-
On our way back from Swindon on the train last night my son related the story to a young very dedicated Villa fan of the relationship O'Neill has built up over the years with media commentators and journalists. It even got me thinking and I have heard the story many times.
I've said all along that a large part of the O'Neill myth came when he was at Leicester and turning down bigger jobs, implying that he was waiting for one more worthy of his talent.
-
Martin Ridley from the Mail On Sunday nails Mon in the first few seconds of that clip......."Martin has always carefully guarded his image......"
And he's right,, it's always about Martin, as in Martin O'Neils whichever club he rocks up at. You rarely see Man U described as Fergies Man U, or David Moyes Everton.
A lot of the other stuff in that clip I think began to dawn on a good few us towards the end of year two.
-
On our way back from Swindon on the train last night my son related the story to a young very dedicated Villa fan of the relationship O'Neill has built up over the years with media commentators and journalists. It even got me thinking and I have heard the story many times.
I've said all along that a large part of the O'Neill myth came when he was at Leicester and turning down bigger jobs, implying that he was waiting for one more worthy of his talent.
He doesn't really look like he's enjoying it at Sunderland much.
I reckon he'll walk at the end of the season, and that'll be it from him.
-
Martin Ridley from the Mail On Sunday nails Mon in the first few seconds of that clip......."Martin has always carefully guarded his image......"
And he's right,, it's always about Martin, as in Martin O'Neils whichever club he rocks up at. You rarely see Man U described as Fergies Man U, or David Moyes Everton.
A lot of the other stuff in that clip I think began to dawn on a good few us towards the end of year two.
Although, I seem to remember Ridley being amongst the most fervent of the O'Neill fellaters in the media a few years ago.
-
Are those pundits all H&V posters?
-
On our way back from Swindon on the train last night my son related the story to a young very dedicated Villa fan of the relationship O'Neill has built up over the years with media commentators and journalists. It even got me thinking and I have heard the story many times.
I've said all along that a large part of the O'Neill myth came when he was at Leicester and turning down bigger jobs, implying that he was waiting for one more worthy of his talent.
He doesn't really look like he's enjoying it at Sunderland much.
I reckon he'll walk at the end of the season, and that'll be it from him.
The thing we tend to forget is that he's sixty. His mentor retired at 58.
-
You're right Paulie, I think it was Ridley who predicted that the European Glory days were about to return to Villa Park when MON turned up.
But it is good to see that the scales are falling from some well seasoned eyes.
-
The worst ever MON love-in thing I read was from Henry Winter (otherwise a good jour no) who said MON was "too good a person for football".
-
I have to admit that I bought into the MON thing full tilt at the time. There was a different feeling, a sense that under him we had become relevant again. I criticised some of the tactics at the time but thought the good outweighed the bad. As time goes by, though, the amount of bad grows and becomes overwhelming. That he was appointed at the exact moment we finally got decent financial backing is a very sad piece of timing in our history, as Randy's money spent more wisely by a better, more up-to-date manager, I believe, would have got us into something like the position Spurs are in now, if not better.
-
The worst ever MON love-in thing I read was from Henry Winter (otherwise a good jour no) who said MON was "too good a person for football".
I have just been sick.
-
They made some excellent points there, overpay for British players, hike the wages, doesn't look abroad for players, plays boring football to watch and then pisses off when he can't take it any further.
And yes we are still suffering from his era.
-
I have to admit that I bought into the MON thing full tilt at the time. There was a different feeling, a sense that under him we had become relevant again. I criticised some of the tactics at the time but thought the good outweighed the bad. As time goes by, though, the amount of bad grows and becomes overwhelming. That he was appointed at the exact moment we finally got decent financial backing is a very sad piece of timing in our history, as Randy's money spent more wisely by a better, more up-to-date manager, I believe, would have got us into something like the position Spurs are in now, if not better.
Claps.
-
The worst ever MON love-in thing I read was from Henry Winter (otherwise a good jour no) who said MON was "too good a person for football".
Yes what a lovely human being he turned out to be.
-
One thing I will say about him is that whichever club he's at becomes high-profile. As was once said, a big club needs a big manager and we've only really had two or three in living memory.
-
I have to admit that I bought into the MON thing full tilt at the time. There was a different feeling, a sense that under him we had become relevant again. I criticised some of the tactics at the time but thought the good outweighed the bad. As time goes by, though, the amount of bad grows and becomes overwhelming. That he was appointed at the exact moment we finally got decent financial backing is a very sad piece of timing in our history, as Randy's money spent more wisely by a better, more up-to-date manager, I believe, would have got us into something like the position Spurs are in now, if not better.
Claps.
My name's Montbert, and I'm a recovering MONaholic. And I find the term 'Monette' either insulting and offensive to me or to be a mispronounced impressionist painter.
-
My opinion of mon started to change after he put that weak team out in Moscow.
-
As a fully paid-up MONette, it's taken me until this season to start to think that the H&V miserable git committee may have had a bit of a point about his limitations.
I thoroughly enjoyed his time here, and still think he did a good enough job, but what few matches I got to under him were aways so I maybe got the best of it.
But the thing that really rings true about the negativity I read on here for his final two years is seeing Sunderland this season. Jesus, so dull, like MON's Villa but without the samba rythms.
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
-
Perceptive that you should comment on the Leicester years Dave, without me naming names which I am not at liberty to do, the one extremely well known commentator who asked my son "why do Villa fans hate O'Neill so much?" related that his friendship had been formed in those Leicester years.
My own opinion is that O'Neill has had his career planned right down to the finest detail and the wheels came off when he was not offered the Liverpool job. Just my opinion.
-
I have to admit that I bought into the MON thing full tilt at the time. There was a different feeling, a sense that under him we had become relevant again. I criticised some of the tactics at the time but thought the good outweighed the bad. As time goes by, though, the amount of bad grows and becomes overwhelming. That he was appointed at the exact moment we finally got decent financial backing is a very sad piece of timing in our history, as Randy's money spent more wisely by a better, more up-to-date manager, I believe, would have got us into something like the position Spurs are in now, if not better.
Claps.
My name's Montbert, and I'm a recovering MONaholic. And I find the term 'Monette' either insulting and offensive to me or to be a mispronounced impressionist painter.
I posted before I saw that Monty. I'm a PC gone MONtal type so I'd never set out to offend a fellow sufferer.
Also, you summed up my thoughts exactly.
It's been 7 weeks since I last claimed anyone had a Law degree.
-
The revelation that, after a Sunday match, we'd not get together until Thursday I find shocking.
Not surprising is it, that some of the players reportedly resented Houllier's more rigorous and professional approach to training when he arrived? If I'd been used to having three days off every week in exchange for my massive pay cheque, I'd probably be slightly put out too.
-
If any of you are watching the new series of Homeland, there is a bit where a previously dismissed and deemed crazy ex CIA woman is shown a video clip of the American Marine that she was convinced had been 'turned' to a terrorist, whilst being held hostage for 7 years or so - the premise for the whole of series 1.
In the clip, he is preparing to become a suicide bomber - and explains his reasons to camera.
Her first words when she was shown the clip were '' I was right, I was right !''
Thats how we should feel .
-
My opinion of mon started to change after he put that weak team out in Moscow.
I hated him after that abject surrender. That was unforgivable.
-
The revelation that, after a Sunday match, we'd not get together until Thursday I find shocking.
Not surprising is it, that some of the players reportedly resented Houllier's more rigorous and professional approach to training when he arrived? If I'd been used to having three days off every week in exchange for my massive pay cheque, I'd probably be slightly put out too.
It does also mean that MON was essentially to blame for a lot of Houllier's problems. I hope history is kinder to what GH tried to do at Villa in light of revelations like these.
I posted before I saw that Monty. I'm a PC gone MONtal type so I'd never set out to offend a fellow sufferer.
Also, you summed up my thoughts exactly.
It's been 7 weeks since I last claimed anyone had a Law degree.
I haven't insisted "I'm sure he does want to play passing football" in nearly a year.
-
Make those two golden muppets!
-
If any of you are watching the new series of Homeland, there is a bit where a previously dismissed and deemed crazy ex CIA woman is shown a video clip of the American Marine that she was convinced had been 'turned' to a terrorist, whilst being held hostage for 7 years or so - the premise for the whole of series 1.
In the clip, he is preparing to become a suicide bomber - and explains his reasons to camera.
Her first words when she was shown the clip were '' I was right, I was right !''
Thats how we should feel .
Brilliant!
-
Perceptive that you should comment on the Leicester years Dave, without me naming names which I am not at liberty to do, the one extremely well known commentator who asked my son "why do Villa fans hate O'Neill so much?" related that his friendship had been formed in those Leicester years.
My own opinion is that O'Neill has had his career planned right down to the finest detail and the wheels came off when he was not offered the Liverpool job. Just my opinion.
One thing that did surprise me at the time was the reception he got when we played Leicester in the League Cup. It was warm rather than rapturous - nowhere near, say, Sir Graham when he returned to Villa with Watford. Maybe in hindsight they'd started to see through him as well.
-
My opinion of mon started to change after he put that weak team out in Moscow.
It was such a catastrophic error. First, it said to the reserves and youngsters 'I don't think you're good enough to get us a win at the weekend'; second, it put enormous pressure on the first team to get that win, which it turned out they couldn't do; third, it spurned the chance (however slim) of winning a trophy in favour of coming fourth in the league.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
-
There was a deeper relationship with GT. You felt he cared for the club, in a similar way Big Ron, Little and even Gregory did. With MON that feeling was never there. The Moscow surrender was the turning point for me in seeing his limitations.
-
Whatever you think of MON, it is hard not to see the scattergun, wastefulness of his transfer policy.
Take his defensive purchases, for example:
2008-9
Davies £9m
Shorey £4m
Luke Young £5m
Cuellar £8m
Then, the very next year, he has another go at a defence:
Beye £3m
Warnock £7m
Collins £5m
Dunne £5m
So, one season, £26m on defenders, then the very next season, another £20m on the same defence.
He also bought decent players, yes, Milner, Young, Downing, who we made a profit on, but stop for a moment and think of the folly of almost 50m on defenders in two years, and the impact that will have had on the wage bill.
-
very good clip there, thanks for that paulie
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
-
You missed Zat Knight.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
It was also even less long term than MON's squad.
-
You missed Zat Knight.
Nobody misses Zat Knight.
-
Different time in football, but what a team.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
It was also even less long term than MON's squad.
It at least didn't leave us crippled, mind, and it involved silverware.
-
You missed Zat Knight.
I was going to add him, he was the year before, 07-08
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
It was also even less long term than MON's squad.
It at least didn't leave us crippled, mind, and it involved silverware.
True. But it was also heading for relegation faster than Dunne heading for the local bun shop.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
It was also even less long term than MON's squad.
It at least didn't leave us crippled, mind, and it involved silverware.
Different times. It's crazy to think that it was largely the sale of one fat-faced player for £5.5m that financed the putting together of that side.
-
You missed Zat Knight.
Nobody misses Zat Knight.
I miss his pointing act.
Whenever at fault for a goal, he'd just stand and point at a random location in the stadium.
-
On our way back from Swindon on the train last night my son related the story to a young very dedicated Villa fan of the relationship O'Neill has built up over the years with media commentators and journalists. It even got me thinking and I have heard the story many times.
I've said all along that a large part of the O'Neill myth came when he was at Leicester and turning down bigger jobs, implying that he was waiting for one more worthy of his talent.
He doesn't really look like he's enjoying it at Sunderland much.
I reckon he'll walk at the end of the season, and that'll be it from him.
It won't quite be "it". I reckon he could be tempted to take the Ireland job when Trapp goes.
-
The worst ever MON love-in thing I read was from Henry Winter (otherwise a good jour no) who said MON was "too good a person for football".
See, I find that stuff far more annoying than the bloke himself.
MON was a good manager, you don't achieve what he did with Wycombe, Leicester, Celtic and ourselves by accident. He's just vastly overrated.
The football was often disjointed and shapeless, which could be forgiven in the earlier years. But not so after four.
At the time we acquired him though he was hot property, linked with many of the top jobs (he'd turned down Leeds, Newcastle and Tottenham) and made us feel good about ourselves. He chose us. Let's not pretend it was all bad either, for all our limitations at times, we went into big games knowing we could win. Expecting it, sometimes.
In the final analysis, I wish he'd been better. But then he probably does as well. He can't help being what he is, a meat and potatoes 4-4-2 merchant.
If any of you are watching the new series of Homeland, there is a bit where a previously dismissed and deemed crazy ex CIA woman is shown a video clip of the American Marine that she was convinced had been 'turned' to a terrorist, whilst being held hostage for 7 years or so - the premise for the whole of series 1.
In the clip, he is preparing to become a suicide bomber - and explains his reasons to camera.
Her first words when she was shown the clip were '' I was right, I was right !''
Thats how we should feel .
Aye, maybe. Or maybe we're like those old Japanese soldiers found in Lubang Island, still fighting WWII years after it ended.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
It was also even less long term than MON's squad.
It at least didn't leave us crippled, mind, and it involved silverware.
Different times. It's crazy to think that it was largely the sale of one fat-faced player for £5.5m that financed the putting together of that side.
We got a load for Cascarino as well.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
Too right, Dave.
That team Atkinson put together wasn't cheap, either, but it had 10 times the flair of MON's side.
It was also even less long term than MON's squad.
It at least didn't leave us crippled, mind, and it involved silverware.
Different times. It's crazy to think that it was largely the sale of one fat-faced player for £5.5m that financed the putting together of that side.
We got a load for Cascarino as well.
Even crazier!
-
very good clip there, thanks for that paulie
Seconded. Do wonder why they've at last chosen to be objective about MON.
-
very good clip there, thanks for that paulie
Seconded. Do wonder why they've at last chosen to be objective about MON.
Maybe it's a new breed of journos coming through who he hasn't bothered to cultivate.
-
very good clip there, thanks for that paulie
Seconded. Do wonder why they've at last chosen to be objective about MON.
Maybe it's a new breed of journos coming through who he hasn't bothered to cultivate.
Or maybe it's now just too obvious that he's not the manager he was.
-
Maybe it's a new breed of journos coming through who he hasn't bothered to cultivate.
Partly that, partly because his glory days (such as they are) seem a fair while ago, and partly because as time goes on it becomes more obvious what his level is.
-
very good clip there, thanks for that paulie
Seconded. Do wonder why they've at last chosen to be objective about MON.
Maybe it's a new breed of journos coming through who he hasn't bothered to cultivate.
Or maybe it's now just too obvious that he's not the manager he was.
I'll still hold fire until that panel is Oliver Holt, Henry Winter and that tit from the Guardian.
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
-
It wasn't all bad under MON, certainly not, but there were certain things which quite a few of us spotted and got worried about, which have proven with retrospect to have been things worth worrying about.
The lack of anything resembling a plan B
A plan A which was somewhat predictable to say the least
Trying to counter attack at home.
A refusal or inability to make substitutions to tactically change the course of the game (Sidwell on 75 mins, anyone?)
A 1980s approach to tactics
The laziest, half-arsed transfer policy around (only signed two players who weren't playing in the UK already)
Dreadful signings on stupid money for long contracts (Heskey)
An obsession with right backs.
Profligate wasting of money.
There were plenty of things to worry about, and looking back now, we were right to worry about them.
The week he joined us, I was trawling some Celtic forums reading about him, and on one of them a Celtic fan pointed out that, amongst all the worship, he'd left them in a financially sticky place with some of their signings, citing the fact Bobo Balde was on a long contract on 40k a week. 40k a week in Scotland?
-
I remember when we beat Newcastle 2-0 at VP in one of his first games and we had about 30% possession. The analysis was this was nothing to worry about as we won and we will do more with the ball. It is a very dangerous game to play, however, and running around chasing the ball for 90 mins means we did run out of steam by the time his fabled month of March came round.
I've probably made it sound simplistic but I'm sure you get my drift.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
I think MON was like BFR in some ways. Media savvy, good motivator leading to Cup finals/wims, always aware of other jobs about, picking of favourites (remember BFR not picking Yorkie) and to be fair an over inflated sense of their achievements by others (ala Venables).
One major difference - BFR teams played football. Objectively that Tesco Bag team he managed were very good to watch. As were the Owls before us and even took 2 years+ before Satan turned them sour. And as for Villa - well we couldhave had a goal of the season to ourselves in 1992-93.
That said I'd rather chat to BFR over a few beers about football than MON. I get the feeling Ron wouldn't care if you thought he was any good and have a good time whereas MON would be waiting for the fawning.
Not anymore for me either. Scales have fallen. MON was great for our profile and did well ala DOL at Leeds. He has got off lightly because we hired 2 completely abject successors who couldn't preside over a steady decline to mid table mediocrity and rather took us into relegation battles. The decline was more marked than 1982-1987
-
Just as an aside, the era of BFR-type managers seems an awfully long time ago.
-
He's a lazy manager and at 60 he's not going to change his style now.
For anyone who can be bothered look at Sunderland and he's doing exactly the same things up there as he was doing here.
Craig Gardner has played most of this season at right back, Jack Coleback (a midfielder) played last night at left back.
Just like here he moved a hardworking right sided midfielder into the centre like Milner here, he's done the same with Seb Larrson there although I don't expect Man. City to come in with a 20m bid anytime soon.
Sunderland have 6 draws from 8 this season so seems fairly obvious to me they struggle to break down sides which was a familiar problem here usually at VP. And they've let in a few late goals this season when sitting back again on a 1-0 lead which again used to happen to us too often.
Basically they're a poorer version of what we were and luckily for them Ellis Short seems to have a tighter reign on the pursestrings. They'll be mid table which will probably please most of their fans as I doubt there's any great expectation of top 6.
Interesting point made earlier, I think MON does know we were his big opportunity to break into the elite managers section and get someone like Man. United interested and he knows it.
I too can see him going from Sunderland at the end of the season, really can't see that being a long term job for him and at his age it could be his last job.
-
Like it. Off to post it elsewhere. Thank you, paulie.
This!
-
In retrospect, I think the thing about MON was that the things he was good at managerially (playing on the counter, motivation, team organisation) made up for the failings he had that others have pointed out on this thread already. So, when he left the faults remained, but his ability to compensate for them did not.
His focus always seemed to be to win the next game, so long term planning his successors could benefit from did not exist.
I still think he was a good manager and did some good things for our club, but it was all short term and unsustainable!
-
You missed Zat Knight.
Nobody misses Zat Knight.
It's not a secret that I was a fan of his but can see that he has not adapted his style to the modern day game over recent years. But this was one that completely pissed me off in that he signed him 3 months after he had signed a new 4 year deal at Fulham and wasn't actually that great.
-
When the debate was raging about whether we should keep O'Neill, I was among those saying we should look to replace him. One of the objections to that was raised by, I think, Dave (from Bath) who said 'how do we know Lerner knows enough about football to appoint a decent replacement?'. Which, as it turns out, was remarkably prescient.
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
Carew for Baros.
-
I have to admit that I bought into the MON thing full tilt at the time. There was a different feeling, a sense that under him we had become relevant again. I criticised some of the tactics at the time but thought the good outweighed the bad. As time goes by, though, the amount of bad grows and becomes overwhelming. That he was appointed at the exact moment we finally got decent financial backing is a very sad piece of timing in our history, as Randy's money spent more wisely by a better, more up-to-date manager, I believe, would have got us into something like the position Spurs are in now, if not better.
I did too. It was not just Randy who believed we had the one of the best managers in football running our team. That is so true about where we are now and where Spurs got to in the same period.
-
And yet Spurs fans were critical of their DoF set up after Jol left in 2007, as it had prevented them from getting O'Neill. Funny old game.
Not that they were close to getting him in 2007, I might add. I think he was in the running in 2004.
-
For me the MON love in ended quite late. I forgave him Moscow and put it down to the evils of the modern game forcing clubs to chase after champions league qualification before all else.
But one very cold afternoon in Stoke during year 4 I watched a dreadful 0-0 draw when I had just recovered from illness. MON was standing watching this dross in his trademark tracksuit and one of the Villa fans shouted something like "Martin! Do something!"
He sent Heskey on 15 minutes from the end I think. In the press conference after the game it was suggested to MON that Villa were yet again going to choke after getting in a good position and he stormed out.
-
Hindsight is a great thing isn't it - in 2006 almost to a person everyone was excited about the arrival.
Where I started to get concerned was the amount he was paying for the likes of Davies, constant counter attacking football at home, the Moscow game - I don't think he or the club realised how much trust went with the fans after that debacle - remember, everyone was encouraged to come to the first leg to create the atmosphere - free flags the works. Stoke at home was simply awful. And one other thing that annoyed me was his 11pm transfer day bids for players like Salifou.
-
It would be nice to see Villadawg's thoughts on this.
-
When the debate was raging about whether we should keep O'Neill, I was among those saying we should look to replace him. One of the objections to that was raised by, I think, Dave (from Bath) who said 'how do we know Lerner knows enough about football to appoint a decent replacement?'. Which, as it turns out, was remarkably prescient.
With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, MON would work really well with a DoF. He does all of the "team" stuff really well - motivation etc - but the long term planning, scouting, developing payers etc he is useless. Had randy appointed a football man, all of our current problems may never have materialised. ...MON could have had a production line of scandinavian superstars coming through and if that failed we'd have had a more logical succession plan with regard to the selection of managers.
Sadly there is no way MON would stomach another football man on the board as Niall Quinn would probably testify.
-
I didn't have a problem with him buying Davis, Salifou etc. Salifou cost the club very little, we may as well hammer BFR for Lamptey. And Davis, a similar track record and age to Young, one worked and one didn't. It happens.
What I have more of a problem with is Zat Knight, Shorey, Harewood and so on. Players most people would be able to hazard a guess at that they wouldn't suddenly become world beaters. And 2 defences in 2 seasons. And no foreigners. And shit football. And his pube hair. And triffic. And his punchable face.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
-
In retrospect, I think the thing about MON was that the things he was good at managerially (playing on the counter, motivation, team organisation) made up for the failings he had that others have pointed out on this thread already. So, when he left the faults remained, but his ability to compensate for them did not.
His focus always seemed to be to win the next game, so long term planning his successors could benefit from did not exist.
I still think he was a good manager and did some good things for our club, but it was all short term and unsustainable!
I agree with all that. He definitely seemed the best man for the job for most (all, for me) of his time here.
And he's a clever man, cleverer than most people in football - he's got Law degree, I believe.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
-
To study law to any degree requires an academic, forensic brain. A sharpness to deal with changing information. And ultimately making conclusions. Conclusions might change as more information becomes available, and a different response might be required.
Which makes his limited, intermediate approach to the game even more hard to fathom. He was surely smart enough to know that the game moves on, yet he persisted with two stoppers at the back, the nippy winger and the big man up top. He'll still be doing that in 10 years, should he remain in the game that long. If he managed to the age of 200, he'd probably see little reason to modify his approach much.
"Fuck it, that'll do," is increasingly how it comes across. Lazy is right.
-
This thread is an interesting read. It does look like the tide is turning when it comes to the wider football's opinion of him. The bit about training is an interesting thing to come out. The number of times post-match threads contained the sentiment 'what do they do at Bodymoor all week'.
There's not much new to say about him, but it's still nice to be able to give it all a good airing every now and then.
There are still a few myths being believed, some repeated on here.
The only newish thing I could throw in is a comparison between the likely ex youth teamers (those that had started to make or had established a first team place) he rejected mostly for peanuts and the expensive replacements he bought in.
Ridgewell
Cahill
Craig Gardner
Steven Davis
Peter Whittingham
Not to mention the 21/22/23 years olds we currently have who would arguably be much better players today had the manager been a little more committed to their development 4/5 years ago.
-
Sadly, any of those five - Ridgewell, Cahill, Gardner, Davis and Whitts, would probably improve us right now.
-
Whatever you think of MON, it is hard not to see the scattergun, wastefulness of his transfer policy.
Take his defensive purchases, for example:
2008-9
Davies £9m
Shorey £4m
Luke Young £5m
Cuellar £8m
Then, the very next year, he has another go at a defence:
Beye £3m
Warnock £7m
Collins £5m
Dunne £5m
So, one season, £26m on defenders, then the very next season, another £20m on the same defence.
He also bought decent players, yes, Milner, Young, Downing, who we made a profit on, but stop for a moment and think of the folly of almost 50m on defenders in two years, and the impact that will have had on the wage bill.
I had forgotten almost how much was spent on those players in defence, makes it even harder to stomach when he joined the club and injury free our back 4 could have been Delaney, Mellberg, Laursen, Bouma. With Cahill being bedded in to replace one of them. Pity in some way Bouma, Laursen and Delaney had been injured perhaps that money could have been spent getting a good striker to take us to the next level. My own personal thoughts on MON losing it for us was when we drew with Stoke at Villa Park and it seemed when it went to 2-1 the whole of the fans around me were screaming for him to bring Reo Coker on as we were being battered in midfield as our players were tired and it might have added some stability. I also felt it was odd how decent the first 11 was but the squad as a whole was not strong as I remember performances against QPR in the Cup and MSK Zilina which were quite bad having rested players.
-
This thread is an interesting read. It does look like the tide is turning when it comes to the wider football's opinion of him. The bit about training is an interesting thing to come out. The number of times post-match threads contained the sentiment 'what do they do at Bodymoor all week'.
There's not much new to say about him, but it's still nice to be able to give it all a good airing every now and then.
There are still a few myths being believed, some repeated on here.
The only newish thing I could throw in is a comparison between the likely ex youth teamers (those that had started to make or had established a first team place) he rejected mostly for peanuts and the expensive replacements he bought in.
Ridgewell
Cahill
Craig Gardner
Steven Davis
Peter Whittingham
Not to mention the 21/22/23 years olds we currently have who would arguably be much better players today had the manager been a little more committed to their development 4/5 years ago.
This is the bit that does my head in - the wasted talent that could have bolstered our team over the last couple of seasons. And the expensive replacements that have cost us.
-
The sad thing is that, at his Leicester and (to an extent) Celtic best, he could do wonders with no-mark players on sod-all money. Like with so many players we've had down the years, maybe he was the right man at the wrong time.
Here's something guaranteed to make a grown man weep. Imagine BFR with Randy's money.
BFR had big money at utd and he blew it. He did a better job of spending the platt money though and did a decent job at villa.
As for mon , I was ecstatic the day he joined us and delighted the day he left - in between he provoked a mixture. Highs and lows - he did an ok job here but on the money spent he should have done so much better.
A great manager - certainly not!
-
This is very interesting, and the chap who starts talking on 1.30 or so is spot on. This is almost the first time I've ever seen him discussed like this.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Posting here as it has relevance to us looking back, too.
This is very interesting, and the chap who starts talking on 1.30 or so is spot on. This is almost the first time I've ever seen him discussed like this.
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
Posting here as it has relevance to us looking back, too.
I'm assuming the chap who said that is being sued as we speak.
-
When O'Neill was our manager, I enjoyed the fact that it was hard to take a dig at Villa. He tended to protect the club from unwarranted - and well-warranted criticism.
It's been one of the more frustrating aspects of the last couple of seasons, the fact that every Tom, Dick and Sullivan has felt entitled to slag us off with impunity.
-
MON in microcosm. We are playing like a drain at home to some no marks and are a goal down.
We are crying out for a change and, finally, some subs start to warm up to ironic cheers.
Really going through his paces is Delfouneso and obviously being prepared to come on. "We want Delfouneso on" chant the crowd.
He is immediately sent back to the bench in favour of Sidwell.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
-
You've all forgot another journo who gargles his spunk on a regular basis - Patrick Barclay from The Times.
Anyway, to my mind i've always seen him as a Brian Clough - Without the talent or charisma.
He hasn't got a fraction of Clough's footballing knowledge and his attempts at wit in interviews are toe curlingly embarrasing.
-
I've been watching Villa since around '88 and Ron's Villa aside MoN gave me the longest run of enjoying the Villa i've had in that period. Yes he made some howlers in the transfer market but he also made big profits on Young,Milner and Downing as well as getting the best out of Barry before flogging him for £12m. Also when Liverpool came sniffing he kept Barry, something I can't recall Villa doing too often when a bid comes in for a star player. He raised the club's profile and gave us belief that we could take on anybody without fear. The way he left soured things somewhat but for the majority of his time at the club I thoroughly enjoyed, rather than endured watching the Villa. For me the positives outweigh the negatives.
-
So at last some journos are starting to see the MON we have been chatting about for the last few seasons.
Maybe it's just me but haven't they missed the most important bit out?
-
So at last some journos are starting to see the MON we have been chatting about for the last few seasons.
Maybe it's just me but haven't they missed the most important bit out?
That he's a pubeheaded arse?
-
So at last some journos are starting to see the MON we have been chatting about for the last few seasons.
Maybe it's just me but haven't they missed the most important bit out?
That he's a pubeheaded arse?
Why didn't Barry take the penalty?
-
So at last some journos are starting to see the MON we have been chatting about for the last few seasons.
Maybe it's just me but haven't they missed the most important bit out?
That he's a pubeheaded arse?
Yes, that as well.
I'm referring to his walking out on the job 5 days before the start of the season.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Thanks.
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
Carew for Baros.
What, that was a bad deal? What did Baros ever do for Villa? On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go. I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.
-
But the interesting thing about that deal is it came about by accident. Houllier called us said he wanted Baros for Lyon and did we want to swap him for Carew who wasn't getting a game there.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
-
But the interesting thing about that deal is it came about by accident. Houllier called us said he wanted Baros for Lyon and did we want to swap him for Carew who wasn't getting a game there.
And yet we still chose Houllier to manage Villa having had previous apparent disagreements with Carew, Friedel and Warnock who were integral part of the team when he took over. Someone wasn't too clever on the research - wonder if he was asked about any of it at the interview.
And Yes Carew was 10 times more effective for Villa than Baros
-
I've been watching Villa since around '88 and Ron's Villa aside MoN gave me the longest run of enjoying the Villa i've had in that period. Yes he made some howlers in the transfer market but he also made big profits on Young,Milner and Downing as well as getting the best out of Barry before flogging him for £12m. Also when Liverpool came sniffing he kept Barry, something I can't recall Villa doing too often when a bid comes in for a star player. He raised the club's profile and gave us belief that we could take on anybody without fear. The way he left soured things somewhat but for the majority of his time at the club I thoroughly enjoyed, rather than endured watching the Villa. For me the positives outweigh the negatives.
Any profits made on certain players are far outweighed by the losses suffered on duds and wages of non-playing squad members. Any way you look at it, his transfer policy was a failure. He left a very mediocre squad, some with bad attitudes, on long-term contracts on high wages. Unsustainable is putting it mildly.
-
Anyway, to my mind i've always seen him as a Brian Clough - Without the talent or charisma.
He hasn't got a fraction of Clough's footballing knowledge and his attempts at wit in interviews are toe curlingly embarrasing.
Certainly not the talent but not sure about the charisma. It takes more than calling people by their first names to get people fawning over him like MON did and you need a certain something to get an average player to perform out of his skin, which was one of MON's undoubted strengths.
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
-
Anyway, to my mind i've always seen him as a Brian Clough - Without the talent or charisma.
He hasn't got a fraction of Clough's footballing knowledge and his attempts at wit in interviews are toe curlingly embarrasing.
Certainly not the talent but not sure about the charisma. It takes more than calling people by their first names to get people fawning over him like MON did and you need a certain something to get an average player to perform out of his skin, which was one of MON's undoubted strengths.
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
This - for all the crap he left us in I'd say along with Lee Dixon and Gary Neville and probably Keane as well (for entertainment) he is one of the few pundits who could spot and articulate specific points.
Compare this to Lawrenson, Hansen and Shearer - the beebs major tournament coverage is poorer without him.
-
I like this video.
-
Anyway, to my mind i've always seen him as a Brian Clough - Without the talent or charisma.
He hasn't got a fraction of Clough's footballing knowledge and his attempts at wit in interviews are toe curlingly embarrasing.
Certainly not the talent but not sure about the charisma. It takes more than calling people by their first names to get people fawning over him like MON did and you need a certain something to get an average player to perform out of his skin, which was one of MON's undoubted strengths.
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
This - for all the crap he left us in I'd say along with Lee Dixon and Gary Neville and probably Keane as well (for entertainment) he is one of the few pundits who could spot and articulate specific points.
Compare this to Lawrenson, Hansen and Shearer - the beebs major tournament coverage is poorer without him.
To be honest I think lee Dixon is an awful pundit .
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Reminds me of that GT quote from 2002 that there are fundamental things wrong at villa that always stop it becoming a massive club when it coms close.
-
It aint going to end well for him at Sunderland. Dont think he has the heart for it anymore, Villa was his chance to make it big and I think he knows he blew it.
Not all bad and far from it. Very organised at set pieces, we could compete with the biggest clubs particularly away from home, Ashley Young, moving Milner to centre midfield, Gabby's development, he inherited a disaffected club as he put it and to be fair he made us competitive.
But as we all know it came at a cost. His laziness as a manager is his biggest fault and the joke of a yes minister entourage he surrounded himself with. Even Clough had a good number 2 for scouting players. We badly missed a David Dein type figure as Chief Executive during his reign but MON would never be one to admit his failings.
I was an enthusiastic backer of MON until the signing of Emile Heskey. We had Gareth Barry playing the football of his career in a 5 man midfield prior to that. The season after in the same position, he played the same side twice in the space of a week. I think Stoke was one with Cuellar at right back. It was over then for MON really.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Within their means.
-
Regarding the defence a perfect example of his buying policy was Bouma being injured and us promptly buying Nicky Shorey from new relegated Reading..who lasted a handful of games before being dropped.As I recall he went and asked Sidwell if he was any good ..that was the grand total of his ''scouting '' network.Same with Beye we needed a RB and that was the best he could fine ..seriously.I also recall us being linked to Falcao now at Atheltico Madrid and him saying something like we will be looking closer to home ..we brought Heskey...
The irony of it is the one player who looks to be value for money and good for us long term is Guzan the one player he did buy from abroad !!Downing ,Young and Milner good buys but it's not like we plucked them from obscurity we paid top rate for them
I think the screw is turning on him now as his Sunderland spending has mirrored our own...what is it around £25mil on Fletcher and Johnson alone.Also there is this fabled ability of his to motivate players , I guess getting some average players paying them far more than their worth and give them loads of time off would help...
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?
If we'd qualified for the CL we'd have lasted about as long in it as we did in the EL the last two times.
-
If we'd qualified for the CL we'd have lasted about as long in it as we did in the EL the last two times.
Bang on. It would have been properly embarrassing, I think.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
Especially having players who kept or increased in value compared to our money down the drain players.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?
Spurs had one season in the CL - does that really make a huge difference to their long term finances?
-
Spurs didn't have the wage bill we did, and they also have much bigger income.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?
Spurs had one season in the CL - does that really make a huge difference to their long term finances?
Possibly not, but sound financial planning and a famously tight wage structure certainly would.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Within their means.
Spot on. As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Would we have had to apply the brakes so hard if we'd been able to make that extra step and qualify for the Champins League?
Spurs had one season in the CL - does that really make a huge difference to their long term finances?
Possibly not, but sound financial planning and a famously tight wage structure certainly would.
Very true. I guess the short term-ism that dominated MON's tenure was off the pitch as well as on it, so Randy needs to take his share of the blame for that.
-
O'Neill did some good stuff at Villa and we were competetive up and around the top level of the league. However his failure to be flexible and put the work in was his undoing in the end. The inability to perform at home due to lack of tactical awareness, and the insistence of buying players from the British Isles at inflated prices from teams who tended to finish near the bottom of the table were major failings. The latter was pure laziness and unwillingness to look abroad for talent. Those things combined with favouritism and picking the same players all the time regardless of form meant he would never succeed at the very top. The last point is a trap I hope that Lambert doesn't fall into.
-
Very true. I guess the short term-ism that dominated MON's tenure was off the pitch as well as on it, so Randy needs to take his share of the blame for that.
Indeed, but nobody will be able to convince me that O'Neill wouldn't have walked sooner had Lerner exerted more control earlier into his time with us. I've said it on more than one occasion, but Lerner was in a no-win situation, as you can guarantee that he would have been severely criticised for not acquiescing to O'Neill's wage / transfer demands, such was O'Neill's popularity at the time (and I include myself in that group btw).
-
Regarding the defence a perfect example of his buying policy was Bouma being injured and us promptly buying Nicky Shorey from new relegated Reading..who lasted a handful of games before being dropped.As I recall he went and asked Sidwell if he was any good ..that was the grand total of his ''scouting '' network.Same with Beye we needed a RB and that was the best he could fine ..seriously.I also recall us being linked to Falcao now at Atheltico Madrid and him saying something like we will be looking closer to home ..we brought Heskey...
The irony of it is the one player who looks to be value for money and good for us long term is Guzan the one player he did buy from abroad !!Downing ,Young and Milner good buys but it's not like we plucked them from obscurity we paid top rate for them
I think the screw is turning on him now as his Sunderland spending has mirrored our own...what is it around £25mil on Fletcher and Johnson alone.Also there is this fabled ability of his to motivate players , I guess getting some average players paying them far more than their worth and give them loads of time off would help...
Downing was muck under MON.
To be fair to MON re the youth players he sold, there werent too many calling for Whittingham, Ridgewell to be kept on. Nor for me Craig Gardner who I thought was a very limited player and still do really. Davis for me was worth keeping, Cahill the huge mistake. Not sure why he didnt rate him.
Shorey and Warnock were bizarre signings. Shorey was destroyed by Ashley Young a few months before we signed him. Milner destroyed Warnock in one of our best games under MON. 2-0 win at Ewood Park in Feb time. We went on an awful run afterwards.
Habib Beye's signing reminded me of a particularly bizarre signing of Chimbonda at Spurs under Redknapp..... Then there was signing Collins and Dunne when Davies and Cuellar were still at the club
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Within their means.
Spot on. As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.
Spurs have always run a tight wage bill, and keep one eye on future sale value of their players.
It's easy to point the finger at them and call them a selling club, too, but they invest their money from sales wisely (on the whole).
A few years on from when we were competing with them, they've got a strong squad and have stayed up there or thereabouts. We, on the other hand, are relegation strugglers with a championship squad, who look very much like going nowhere fast. Or at least nowhere we'd like to go.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
If Lerner was seemingly incapable of saying no to MON or questioning his wage bill for the best part of four years, I find it really hard to believe he'd have the balls to tell him to "throw" a competition.
I find it quite easy to believe MON would prefer people to think otherwise, mind.
-
O'Neill did some good stuff at Villa and we were competetive up and around the top level of the league. However his failure to be flexible and put the work in was his undoing in the end. The inability to perform at home due to lack of tactical awareness, and the insistence of buying players from the British Isles at inflated prices from teams who tended to finish near the bottom of the table were major failings. The latter was pure laziness and unwillingness to look abroad for talent. Those things combined with favouritism and picking the same players all the time regardless of form meant he would never succeed at the very top. The last point is a trap I hope that Lambert doesn't fall into.
The players we had meant that we should have been at the top end. His biggest failure for me at that time was that with the players and resources then at his disposal the third finish of 6 th place was a massive underachievement. You could also say that for the second 6th place position.
Just because we hadn't finished 6th for nigh on ten years doesn't mean we should just be thankful for small mercies when it was really a failing on O'Neill's part to do more with probably the best side we've had since 80-81.
-
O'Neill did some good stuff at Villa and we were competetive up and around the top level of the league. However his failure to be flexible and put the work in was his undoing in the end. The inability to perform at home due to lack of tactical awareness, and the insistence of buying players from the British Isles at inflated prices from teams who tended to finish near the bottom of the table were major failings. The latter was pure laziness and unwillingness to look abroad for talent. Those things combined with favouritism and picking the same players all the time regardless of form meant he would never succeed at the very top. The last point is a trap I hope that Lambert doesn't fall into.
The players we had meant that we should have been at the top end. His biggest failure for me at that time was that with the players and resources then at his disposal the third finish of 6 th place was a massive underachievement. You could also say that for the second 6th place position.
Just because we hadn't finished 6th for nigh on ten years doesn't mean we should just be thankful for small mercies when it was really a failing on O'Neill's part to do more with probably the best side we've had since 80-81.
I think it's the point around insisting on playing the same side that's key to that, the players just got tired out. It was no coincidence that we never won games in March, it was poor management. If he'd been flexible and switching things around a bit, I'm convinced we would have been top 4 that year we were miles ahead of Arsenal.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Within their means.
Spot on. As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.
Spurs have always run a tight wage bill, and keep one eye on future sale value of their players.
It's easy to point the finger at them and call them a selling club, too, but they invest their money from sales wisely (on the whole).
I'd love to know what statistical evidence you have to back that argument.
-
I'm not too sure on this one. I think some may have argued that three 6th place finishes in a row was possibly an overachievement for us. Maybe in the first two 6th places. By that third season with all the money we'd outlayed, you'd have expected that minimum and a decent 4th push. We did push reasonably well and had the cup final. I'm not gonna start saying O Neill didn't do good things here because he did. We also did play some exciting football, particularly in his 2nd and third season when we scored pretty regularly.
There's still that feeling though that a more varied transfer policy and more tactical nouse (hell, just a plan B) that we missed our best shot of being in the Champs league. Our European outings were largely disappointing to.
But in truth, O Neill was destined to revert back to a mid-table manager under us. There's no doubt we'd have fallen back after losing Milner and just one too many years playing exactly the same way. Teams work you out and get your number. I think in part O Neill quit while he was ahead, for egos sake. I don't believe he felt we could do any more than he did that final season. I'd go along with that too.
He'll be back to his standard with Sunderland and that's mid table. They've given him cash but he won't get the same amount he got under Randy. Plus I don't see him unearthing any more Ashley Youngs to be honest. His young signings weren't generally brilliant. Delph's been a waste thus far. Milner was a good signing but a very known qaulity. The black cats should expect signings more akin to the Sidwells, Knights etc than Young, Milner and Downing. They'll have piss poor sell on value.
He's vastly overrated though. Had he left here on good terms I'd have absolutely no problems with his time here, signings aside. Again though, Randy runs the club, signs the cheques and should take half the blame there. But fucking off a week before the season was a disgrace. He'd seemed a bit less enthused in the final month or two of the season before because it seemed Milners exit and a tighter budget was foregone. I don't think his heart was really in it during pre-season either. I mean he probably knew well enough he was gonna fuck off, so he should have just done it in May.
I look forward to his stock falling this season.
-
How can there be an argument that 6th place was an under achievement when the O'Neill detractors say that he left us with a mediocre squad?
-
He under achieved given the amount of money spent .
-
I'm not gonna start saying O Neill didn't do good things here because he did.
His 100% record against Blues was certainly welcome!!
-
How can there be an argument that 6th place was an under achievement when the O'Neill detractors say that he left us with a mediocre squad?
Because of the money paid in developing the mediocre squad. Are you trying to tell me that we couldn't have got a much better striker for the combined value of Heskey's wages and transfer fee, for example?
-
I think it's the point around insisting on playing the same side that's key to that, the players just got tired out. It was no coincidence that we never won games in March, it was poor management. If he'd been flexible and switching things around a bit, I'm convinced we would have been top 4 that year we were miles ahead of Arsenal.
What was really frustrating was that two years in a row he talked about switching things around but never did.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
Helped by the Champion's League money! If we had got there, who knows, we could be same position.
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
-
See Paulie's earlier post. We would have been found out very quickly.
-
I was chatting to a Sunderland fan last night in the pub, who says they are awful and a lot of them are not impressed with him.
Good point in that clip - we are still counting the cost of his tenure. Look at Spurz, started below us, old Harry took them passed us on a lower wage bill - got them into the CL and now they are still in good position. Us on the other hand....
For all the talk about 'could have been where Spurs are', let's not forget that we stopped spending while they carried on doing so.
Within their means.
Spot on. As much as we all hate them, they a much better run club that we were at the time, who actually appeared to have a plan or strategy in place.
Spot on.
They were down the bottom when Harry took over, over-took MON to get them into the top 4 on a lower wage bill. That video said it all, MON spend money on UK based players and high wages. We now seeing the result of that model failing.
-
Supertom pretty much sums how I feel up about our Martin. He did some good things, not least making us relevant again. But in doing so he spent all of Lerner's money and this splurge also unfortunately coincided with a financial meltdown and the rise of Man City and their millions. I'd say that the mistake 'pundits' make when talking about Villa in terms of where we were under MON and are now, is that they infer that we overachieved as a club in the late 2000's. We didn't, it's just that MON didn't overachieve as a manager. He merely performed to par and as such we missed out on the only thing that would've kept us up there and challenging: Champions league qualification. We didn't win anything either.
Anyway, O'Neill seems to be struggling up there and I can't say I'm unhappy about the fact due to the nature of his departure.
-
It wasn't just the money but the fact that for maybe the only time in history everyone at Villa from owner to supporters were on the same side. In those first couple of years it seemed anything was possible. O'Neill had the most favourable working conditions imaginable and got us top six and a cup final.
-
See Paulie's earlier post. We would have been found out very quickly.
Agreed. The fundamental fact for me is that when we finally got some proper investment, two years before the rise of Man City even began, the manager we had in was hardly a visionary, and unable to adapt when the situation demanded..
-
I like Martin O'Neill. I enjoyed his time here, I liked seeing players like Young, Carew, Gabby, Milner and the like, I enjoyed the way the team gave their all and you felt we were always in with a chance, I loved the quick attacking football and mean defense, I enjoyed his nervy eccentric manner, I admire his success at Leicester and Celtic and how he put football second when his wife was ill, I like the way he made us feel we we're on the up and could take anyone on, I love the fact he always won derbies and won at places like Old Trafford and Arsenal.
I don't think he was the messiah or without faults and was frustrated by his lack of rotation and his failure to look for players abroad. My attitude towards him were similar to the vast majority of those on this board, but now it seems fashionable to call him pube head and think that everything he did was crap.
-
See Paulie's earlier post. We would have been found out very quickly.
I am certain people on this forum said the same of Spurs when they qualified. Losing in the quarter finals to Real Madrid having knocked out AC Milan was it? Not specifically saying you did, Ger.
-
See Paulie's earlier post. We would have been found out very quickly.
I am certain people on this forum said the same of Spurs when they qualified. Losing in the quarter finals to Real Madrid having knocked out AC Milan was it? Not specifically saying you did, Ger.
Spurs were a much better footballing side than us, which is why they did so well.
I suspect people saying they'd get booted out pretty quickly were doing so to a large degree out of the usual football fan dislike / jealousy of other teams
-
See Paulie's earlier post. We would have been found out very quickly.
I am certain people on this forum said the same of Spurs when they qualified. Losing in the quarter finals to Real Madrid having knocked out AC Milan was it? Not specifically saying you did, Ger.
We were in Europe, and regularly got found out at a lower level than the CL. There's no evidence to suggest the CL would have been any different. We would have been Everton MKII, not Spurs.
-
I suspect people saying they'd get booted out pretty quickly were doing so to a large degree out of the usual football fan dislike / jealousy of other teams
I don't know about that - I think most people whether they love or hurt Spurs would have expected them to go out to either Inter or AC Milan that year.
-
I like Martin O'Neill. I enjoyed his time here, I liked seeing players like Young, Carew, Gabby, Milner and the like, I enjoyed the way the team gave their all and you felt we were always in with a chance, I loved the quick attacking football and mean defense, I enjoyed his nervy eccentric manner, I admire his success at Leicester and Celtic and how he put football second when his wife was ill, I like the way he made us feel we we're on the up and could take anyone on, I love the fact he always won derbies and won at places like Old Trafford and Arsenal.
I don't think he was the messiah or without faults and was frustrated by his lack of rotation and his failure to look for players abroad. My attitude towards him were similar to the vast majority of those on this board, but now it seems fashionable to call him pube head and think that everything he did was crap.
I know what you mean.
Where I parted company with his approach was the intransigence re selection and playing style and the very questionable signings, at the expense of the young, untried / untested players that were listed a few pages above.
The more I hear about him, the less I like him and now feel that his seemingly 'pure' motives were in fact incredibly ego-centric. I appreciate that this may read as naive on my part but I did regard him and RL as potential saviours of our club after a pretty negative few years.
-
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
Not quite.
As I recall, he was ridiculed on here for his waffling on World Cup Match of the day, long before he joined us.
-
How can there be an argument that 6th place was an under achievement when the O'Neill detractors say that he left us with a mediocre squad?
Because of the money paid in developing the mediocre squad. Are you trying to tell me that we couldn't have got a much better striker for the combined value of Heskey's wages and transfer fee, for example?
I'm not trying to tell you anything. I'm not here saying O'Neill was brilliant and I certainly won't argue that Heskey was a crap signing. However, I can't see how it can be argued that a squad which finished sixth with 64 points (I think), reached a league cup final and a F.A Cup semi were therefore 'mediocre'. Could there have been better players for the same money? Yes, but that isn't the point that was made. I was pissed off when he walked out five days before the season but i'm not going to change my view that under his management following the Villa was in the main enjoyable. Under O'Leary,Houllier and McLeish this wasn't the case. The season we scored over 70 league goals will certainly live long in the memory as will the victories at the Emirates,Anfield and Old Trafford, not to mention the victories against the Blues. So like i said, for me there were more positives than negatives under O'Neill.
-
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
Not quite.
As I recall, he was ridiculed on here for his waffling on World Cup Match of the day, long before he joined us.
I remember far more comments saying the exact opposite. Especially comments by MON that took the piss out of the other pundits, which were repeated with glee.
Never saw one person saying a negative word.
-
He left Leicester and they went down.
I would think more of him if he had left after the last game of the season rather than 5 days before the season started and for that i do not like him.
Compare that to Sir Graham who left after the game at Leeds to give the club time to get a new manager in.
MON did waste a lot of money on very average players apart from Young/Milner and Downing.
I would not be suprised if he is reading this and making notes.
-
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
Not quite.
As I recall, he was ridiculed on here for his waffling on World Cup Match of the day, long before he joined us.
I remember far more comments saying the exact opposite. Especially comments by MON that took the piss out of the other pundits, which were repeated with glee.
Never saw one person saying a negative word.
Odd. You're not getting mixed up with Harewood and Heskey are you?
When many did a u-turn and said how good they were when they joined us?
-
As for "toe curlingly embarrasing interviews", I remember MON's analysis during international tournaments which were memorable not only for their insight but their humour, which was remarked upon in this forum both before and after MON became Villa manager, so I think you're way off there, to be frank.
Not quite.
As I recall, he was ridiculed on here for his waffling on World Cup Match of the day, long before he joined us.
I remember far more comments saying the exact opposite. Especially comments by MON that took the piss out of the other pundits, which were repeated with glee.
Never saw one person saying a negative word.
Odd. You're not getting mixed up with Harewood and Heskey are you?
When many did a u-turn and said how good they were when they joined us?
I could say the same to you.
-
I would remember him much more fondly if he had quit at the end of the season and admitted he couldn't go any further.
The way he left not only left us in the shit but implied that it was all everybody else's fault.
When I think of the loyalty that many of us showed to him, it's hard to remember him with anything but bitterness.
-
I would remember him much more fondly if he had quit at the end of the season and admitted he couldn't go any further.
The way he left not only left us in the shit but implied that it was all everybody else's fault.
When I think of the loyalty that many of us showed to him, it's hard to remember him with anything but bitterness.
Hear, hear.
-
I would remember him much more fondly if he had quit at the end of the season and admitted he couldn't go any further.
The way he left not only left us in the shit but implied that it was all everybody else's fault.
When I think of the loyalty that many of us showed to him, it's hard to remember him with anything but bitterness.
True.
I also think he would have been given far less reciprocated bitterness had he left at the end of the season. He knew the score then and what his job for the coming season was. If he didn't want to or wasn't capable of doing it (more than likely) he should have let it be known then to allow the club some time to get someone in who possibly could. The nature of his departure is what riles me most and he gets a financial settlement out of it to put cream and cherry on the top.
I have a feeling he has regrets now about they way he handled it.
-
I would remember him much more fondly if he had quit at the end of the season and admitted he couldn't go any further.
The way he left not only left us in the shit but implied that it was all everybody else's fault.
When I think of the loyalty that many of us showed to him, it's hard to remember him with anything but bitterness.
True.
I also think he would have been given far less reciprocated bitterness had he left at the end of the season. He knew the score then and what his job for the coming season was. If he didn't want to or wasn't capable of doing it (more than likely) he should have let it be known then to allow the club some time to get someone in who possibly could. The nature of his departure is what riles me most and he gets a financial settlement out of it to put cream and cherry on the top.
I have a feeling he has regrets now about they way he handled it.
Agreed. I too was a fan while he was here, but his fnal year it was clear he had taken us as far as he could at huge cost - but knowing what I know now and the way he walked out on us, I've lost all respect for the man.
-
I would remember him much more fondly if he had quit at the end of the season and admitted he couldn't go any further.
The way he left not only left us in the shit but implied that it was all everybody else's fault.
When I think of the loyalty that many of us showed to him, it's hard to remember him with anything but bitterness.
Hear, hear.
Yeah yeah, and I hate Ron Saunders for leaving us in the middle of our only season with a chance to win the European Cup and joining Blues and for that bloody Brian Little who had a medical at Small Heath.
He should not have gone like he did and he's even said sorry (no mean feat for a megalomaniac). Ok I can see how it is going to mean we would have a difficult season but if the board knew what they were doing and were serious about investing in the team they could quickly have settled the ship again and got us moving.
-
My biggest problem with MoN is that he spent a fortune on squad players only to leave them on the bench.
It was weird, if you take all the money he spent adding options to the squad (both fees and wages) spent half on promising youngsters from across europe and the other half on 1-2 top class players we'd have seen little reduction in performance at the time and we'd have had a long-term plan, filling the squad with guys in their late 20s and early 30s on big contracts and barely playing them was crazy and proved to be his downfall.
-
In retrospect, I think the thing about MON was that the things he was good at managerially (playing on the counter, motivation, team organisation) made up for the failings he had that others have pointed out on this thread already. So, when he left the faults remained, but his ability to compensate for them did not.
His focus always seemed to be to win the next game, so long term planning his successors could benefit from did not exist.
I still think he was a good manager and did some good things for our club, but it was all short term and unsustainable!
Spot on the money for me.
-
Sadly, any of those five - Ridgewell, Cahill, Gardner, Davis and Whitts, would probably improve us right now.
I would definitely go for Whittingham and Gardner would add a lot, but now has baggage.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in
front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
Oh. What an incentive to find the quote. Yes, there are many quotes of him saying it was his decision only, with the point being laboured, but what I said was what I saw.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
If Lerner was seemingly incapable of saying no to MON or questioning his wage bill for the best part of four years, I find it really hard to believe he'd have the balls to tell him to "throw" a competition.
I find it quite easy to believe MON would prefer people to think otherwise, mind.
True. Nothing was going to get in the way of managing a team into the CL. Very determined and blinkered.
Then he bought Heskey. Enough said.
-
I have mostly fond memories, 2-1 v Ajax, 5-1 v Blues, 6-4 v Blackburn, consecutive home league wins over Chelsea etc. Moscow was a debacle as was 2-2 v Stoke when they scored two in the dying minutes. Heskey was a bad buy, but Carew, Young, Milner, Downing were excellent. The style of football was exciting to watch, but his insistence on playing centre halves at right back, ignoring the lower league/foreign transfer markets and not making subs early enough was frustrating. Overall he could have done better but I would give him 8/10 for him time with us. The way he left was disappointing and the board/owner have disappointed since in their actions/decisions. I think Lambert has the potential to be a better manager for us but unless he is well funded it will count for very little, the odd league placing here or there I guess.
-
Despite the fact it has probably been debated a million times still interesting reading this thread.
I'll never forget those first few years under his tenure when you had the feeling - genuinely - that we could win anywhere and were never out of a game. It was wonderful, frankly.
I'll also never forget the manner in which he left and in his wake, exposed the nature of model he left behind. The whole club - seemingly both on and off the pitch - was built with him at the epicentre, which was great in the short-term when things were going well. One of his talents undoubtably, was motivating and making very average players seem actually rather good. However, when you take him out of the equation, all is exposed and as so much at the club seemingly depended/centred around him, the wheels came off and it feels like only now we're starting the long road to recovery.
-
I must say, I'm quite surprised by that clip. Two things that stand out; the press are seeing through him and the fact they still think he's very popular at Sunderland. A quick read on their forums will tell you otherwise.
I was one of the earliest and biggest critics of MON, not because he wasn't doing a decent job but to where it was leading. I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.
At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.
Top 6 finishes, though commendable and mainly built on our away form, were far more easier then than now. The problem was we were going no where. Our football never developed and as Paulie said earlier, if we had managed to qualify for the qualifying rounds of the Champions League, it would have been a very short stay and no doubt very embarrassing. Given the amount of money supplied by Randy, MON's acheivements were nothing any other half decent manager could have done but probably would have included a footballing side that had more than Plan A.
Maybe his problem was sticking to his loyal sidekicks Robertson and Walford, as we know, MON was never a tracksuit manager though ironically he liked to wear one on a Saturday. Football has moved on a long way and his methods are long outdated. You can't rely and build something purely on hard work (take note Paul Lambert). I did for a few weeks sense that MON wanted to change things, maybe go for a Plan B but it never materialised. He secretly knew his limits and he also knew the true value of the players Randy had asked him to get off the wage bill. He knew his bluff had been called and wasn't going to be caught out so jumped before he was shown up for shopaholic exploits.
Whether he stayed on until 5 days before the season kicked off was out of spite, I have no idea. Looking at it now, I get the impression it was. A more dignified man would have called it a day on the last day of the season but then I guess he would have put himself and his backroom staff on the dole. Afterall, where would he go, he'd missed out on the Liverpool job and he couldn't be seen to take a step down. He's far too good for that.
Overall, I see his time as another chapter in Villa's long history of missed opportunities. He may arguably have been the right man for us when Randy took over but for me he'd long outstayed his welcome. He was a short term fix, not somebody to build the club around.
-
Whether he stayed on until 5 days before the season kicked off was out of spite, I have no idea. Looking at it now, I get the impression it was. A more dignified man would have called it a day on the last day of the season but then I guess he would have put himself and his backroom staff on the dole. Afterall, where would he go, he'd missed out on the Liverpool job and he couldn't be seen to take a step down. He's far too good for that.
I know it's going over old ground, but I still firmly believe that was the case and that he deliberately timed his exit to cause as much disruption and unrest at the club as possible. I thought the signs of discontent were there during the final few months of the 2009/10 season and can recall him making a comment like "you'd better ask Mark Hughes about that" when asked about his future at Villa Park. Looking back, the issue probably should have been forced at the end of that season, but it would have been a big call by Lerner at that time.
-
He was a short term fix, not somebody to build the club around.
Perhaps this is the part that Sunderland fans should take note of the most.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in
front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
Oh. What an incentive to find the quote. Yes, there are many quotes of him saying it was his decision only, with the point being laboured, but what I said was what I saw.
Can't imagine mon letting Lerner tell him what team to pick , I'd expect him to stand his corner or quit if told to basically play a reserve team in a vital cup game.
I think it's mon who chose that team and the blame lies with him alone.
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
Carew for Baros.
What, that was a bad deal? What did Baros ever do for Villa? On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go. I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.
Agreed - I was countering the Harewood purchase with an excellent example on the flip side.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in
front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
Oh. What an incentive to find the quote. Yes, there are many quotes of him saying it was his decision only, with the point being laboured, but what I said was what I saw.
Can't imagine mon letting Lerner tell him what team to pick , I'd expect him to stand his corner or quit if told to basically play a reserve team in a vital cup game.
I think it's mon who chose that team and the blame lies with him alone.
I always thought Randy was embarrassed by the performance and professionalism of it and it was him who tried to soften the blow by refunding anyone who traveled there?
-
And yet if we'd pulled off a stunning win in Moscow, I know who would have received all the credit.
-
And yet if we'd pulled off a stunning win in Moscow, I know who would have received all the credit.
In MON's defence, the Reserve team were far more suited to playing European football than his first team.
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in
front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
Oh. What an incentive to find the quote. Yes, there are many quotes of him saying it was his decision only, with the point being laboured, but what I said was what I saw.
It could equally mean that they 'made a decision' when they didn't give him £20+ million or whatever else he wanted in January 2009. He might have argued that he wasn't backed then (despite spending £40 million+ the previous year) and so he was forced into fielding a weakened team.
See, prioritising would the league over the UEFA Cup would have been fine. I think the majority of us wanted to have a full tilt at top 4 that year, with the importance that would bring in our development. Rotation would have been fine, too. Resting a couple of our more important players, if they were carrying knocks and generally feeling the strain of a tough season. But dropping so many was the issue. Giving rookies like Albrighton and Bannan (promising as they were) debuts in Moscow left little doubt that he actually didn't mind us being knocked out of that competition.
Clubs like Ajax (who we beat that year) Marseille and Atletico Madrid were quite happy to take that competition seriously. So when did we become big enough to treat it like the League Cup?
-
Remember his exact words about Moscow: 'They made a decision'. It was only said once.
What did he mean/do you interpret that to mean?
It meant that the decision to throw the Moscow game, or not send a full strength team, was not entirely his own. The previous sentence referred to the owners or the board. Without a copy of it in
front of me I can't say which it was, but the words that I have quoted were definitely said on one occasion.
Which I don't believe for one second.
Oh. What an incentive to find the quote. Yes, there are many quotes of him saying it was his decision only, with the point being laboured, but what I said was what I saw.
I'm not saying he didn't say it DC5 just that I don't believe for a second that the decision was anything other than O'Neill's. He's traded on his reputation as being in complete control of the club that he is managing - around the playing side - and there is no way he would listen to the board, or whoever, and just through away our Europa Cup Quarter-final the way he did. Again, he's looking to point finger's elsewhere. Nevermind Pubehead he should be called The Teflon Kid for the way nothing ever was his fault.
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
Carew for Baros.
What, that was a bad deal? What did Baros ever do for Villa? On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go. I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.
Agreed - I was countering the Harewood purchase with an excellent example on the flip side.
Oh OK. I seem to be grabbing the wrong end of the stick a lot lately. *scratches head*
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
Carew for Baros.
What, that was a bad deal? What did Baros ever do for Villa? On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go. I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.
Agreed - I was countering the Harewood purchase with an excellent example on the flip side.
There is no flip side here. MON DID not sign Carew. The swap deal was done before his arrival.
-
£3.5m on Marlon Harewood. That is all.
Carew for Baros.
What, that was a bad deal? What did Baros ever do for Villa? On the other hand, Carew, despite the fact that he blew hot and cold has been shown to be one of Villa's most successful recent aquisitions as far as strikers go. I'd definitetely put Carew for Baros in the plus column for MON.
Agreed - I was countering the Harewood purchase with an excellent example on the flip side.
There is no flip side here. MON DID not sign Carew. The swap deal was done before his arrival.
Are you suggested O'Leary signed Carew? And we just didn't bother buying him a plane ticket for another six months?
I can't say I've heard this particular theory before.
-
Good riddance to the Poison Dwarf.
-
Although I am very far from being one of MON's bigger fans, I can think of things he got right.
He gave us some self belief, he got decent results out of (some, if nothing like all) average players, he got another year out of Barry and then decent money for him at the end of it, and I understand why he did what he did in Moscow.
The problem is that the wider picture reflects pretty poorly on him.
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy, and MON's legacy has proven to be a fragile house of cards which he clearly knew was going to collapse, hence him scarpering when he did, and which has left us insolvent and established as relegation strugglers.
Lerner is far from excluded from the blame, though. It's all fine and dandy to say of ourselves "we weren't moaning when we were spending the money", but then again, we didn't see the whole financial picture. Lerner did, yet he still let things carry on as they did. Now we're flogging off what we can left right and centre to claw money back.
It's all very depressing. The way they abruptly dropped that "Proud History Bright Future" bullshit, yanked the General from the forums, and started flogging off the family silver just says it all.
Ever feel like you've been swindled?
-
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.
It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.
Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.
Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.
I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.
Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.
-
Sorry, for the quote disaster.
-
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.
It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.
Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.
Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.
I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.
Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.
You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.
If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.
Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.
O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.
-
I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.
At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.
Spot on and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned much up to now. The final two seasons of his reign, 08/09 and 09/10 when we were fighting for 4th place up until May, saw extremely average results and performances at VP. I'd go as far to say that season-ticket holders would have been more than entitled to feel they had been given a raw deal. We won less than half our matches and the goal average wasn't much to write home about either.
The spawny 0-1 wins at the likes of Hull and Portsmouth with the one lightning-quick counter attack that came off and then spending the rest of the game defending for our lives like a League Two club was not lost on me at the time and I often wondered how long it would be before we would get found out.
There were some far more impressive away days, mentioned before now, but in general terms we were a team whose attacking prowess was built almost solely on abilities from set-pieces and counter-attacks. Opening teams up, patient build-up play, incisive and quick passing, through balls etc. were never really in our arsenal under him and it's what distinguished us from being a decent side to what could have been, with a bit of ingenuity, a great one.
-
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.
It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.
Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.
Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.
I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.
Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.
You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.
If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.
Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.
O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.
I deliberately chose extreme cases because that's what you do if you see a flaw in logic - extreme cases expose the line of thought more clearly. It's obvious who left a positive legacy, less so who didn't. That's the point I was picking up on.
-
Apparently there is a Times article today about What has wrong for MoN at Sunderland - I don't have an online subscription so haven't seen it?
-
I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.
At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.
Spot on and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned much up to now. The final two seasons of his reign, 08/09 and 09/10 when we were fighting for 4th place up until May, saw extremely average results and performances at VP. I'd go as far to say that season-ticket holders would have been more than entitled to feel they had been given a raw deal. We won less than half our matches and the goal average wasn't much to write home about either.
The spawny 0-1 wins at the likes of Hull and Portsmouth with the one lightning-quick counter attack that came off and then spending the rest of the game defending for our lives like a League Two club was not lost on me at the time and I often wondered how long it would be before we would get found out.
There were some far more impressive away days, mentioned before now, but in general terms we were a team whose attacking prowess was built almost solely on abilities from set-pieces and counter-attacks. Opening teams up, patient build-up play, incisive and quick passing, through balls etc. were never really in our arsenal under him and it's what distinguished us from being a decent side to what could have been, with a bit of ingenuity, a great one.
I think it's harsh to call them 'spawny' when we had such a long established away record. Some were easy wins by a few goals, other a bit tighter, but when you won away as much as we did it can only be due being a VERY good away side.
-
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.
It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.
Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.
Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.
I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.
Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.
You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.
If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.
Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.
O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.
Ron Saunders' team was relegated within 5 years, I don't hear many people going on about how poor his legacy was.
-
Didn't it win the European Cup after he left. That's not a legacy to be sniffed at.
Further edit. Just the after should be in bold.
-
Legacy includes achievements though.
Fergies legacy at united won't be the players in the squad, it will be the stacks of trophies in the cabinet. If he leaves a strong young squad for the next guy then all the better.
-
Ron Saunders' team was relegated within 5 years, I don't hear many people going on about how poor his legacy was.
Stainrod, Cooper, Keown, Thompson, Norton, Hodge,Aspinall, Elliot etc all played starring roles in the League and European cup winning sides built by Saunders of course.
-
I understand why some defended him, especially those that attended away games. Away from home, you don't care how you get the result. You spend a lot of money getting there, expensive ticket prices and a few drinks before, not to mention the poor weather conditions you may face. It's generally blind faith but under MON we generally got a result away from home.
At home was a different story. Despite getting in some great attendances over his rein, the football seemed to get worse not better. It's easy to say teams "park the bus" but that doesn't defend the cluelessness of his tactics. I say tactics in the phural but in reality it was a tactic, the same tactic he's now using at Sunderland - get the ball out to the wingers. Yes, he managed to beat the Rags time and time again but I'm Villa not a Nose and there's more to my season that playing them.
Spot on and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned much up to now. The final two seasons of his reign, 08/09 and 09/10 when we were fighting for 4th place up until May, saw extremely average results and performances at VP. I'd go as far to say that season-ticket holders would have been more than entitled to feel they had been given a raw deal. We won less than half our matches and the goal average wasn't much to write home about either.
The spawny 0-1 wins at the likes of Hull and Portsmouth with the one lightning-quick counter attack that came off and then spending the rest of the game defending for our lives like a League Two club was not lost on me at the time and I often wondered how long it would be before we would get found out.
There were some far more impressive away days, mentioned before now, but in general terms we were a team whose attacking prowess was built almost solely on abilities from set-pieces and counter-attacks. Opening teams up, patient build-up play, incisive and quick passing, through balls etc. were never really in our arsenal under him and it's what distinguished us from being a decent side to what could have been, with a bit of ingenuity, a great one.
I think it's harsh to call them 'spawny' when we had such a long established away record. Some were easy wins by a few goals, other a bit tighter, but when you won away as much as we did it can only be due being a VERY good away side.
We were, thanks to our abilities at breaking with pace and deliveries from set-pieces. Which is suited to away days and is MON's style in essence - it has been at Leicester, it is at Sunderland.
I maintain that more than a few of those were jammy away wins, the ones I mentioned I clearly remember thinking how we got away with it.
Of course it's unrealistic to expect us to be free-flowing all the time especially away from home but having the lion's share of possession and breaking down teams - things you'd expect from a side aiming for the Champions League, was something we struggled with a lot.
-
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.
It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.
Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.
Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.
I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.
Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.
When Ferguson leaves Man United, his legacy will be a trophy cabinet containing god knows how many leagues and cups he won, and a club still at the top of the tree.
A club which is indisputably one oif the three or four biggest in the world, and one which hadn't won the league for a quarter of a century when he arrived.
-
Ultimately, managers are to a large event judged by their legacy
Are they? Since when? Clough's 'legacy' was terrible and he's rightly considered a genius.
It doesn't matter what happens at Man Utd after Ferguson goes, he'll still be revered.
Matt Busby's side were relegated pretty swiftly after he went and, again, nobody blames him.
Liverpool still haven't recovered since Dalgliesh Mk1 left and I get the impression that they're still keen on him up there.
I can't think of a single manager who's been juudged on their legacy above their time in charge.
Not that the issues you highlight in the rest of your post are without merit, mind.
You have chosen three very extreme cases of outstanding achievement.
If O'Neill had won the League and European Cup for us and/or made us the best supported club in the land he would have been able to leave with the coffers empty and the tea lady with a dose of clap by way of a legacy, he would still have been revered.
Then again, you could argue that is legacy as much as it is achievement. Ramsay, McGregor and Rinder achieved a lot, but their greatest achievement was the legacy they left, which is still with us. Take a look at Small Heath, that could have been us.
O'Neill had a better chance than almost anybody - money, authority and time. If it weren't for the state of the accounts and threads like this, just two and a half years on you'd hardly know he'd been here.
Ron Saunders' team was relegated within 5 years, I don't hear many people going on about how poor his legacy was.
His legacy - a team which won the league and EC - was taken to pieces within a couple of years of him going. As Dave said, the team that got relegated had little in common with the Saunders team.
Martin's most damning legacy was an unsustainable wage bill, largely paying players with next to no sell-on value, players who suit a style of football most people stopped playing years ago, plus players who had barely been used in the time they were here.
Oh, plus no trophies and not taking us any higher up the league than DOL did.
-
Sir Graham's team almost got relegated the year after he left but his legacy was still strong a decade later.
-
I am not going to do the quotathon thing, but the point that was originally made is that manager's are largely judged on their legacy, I don't think that is necessarily the case.
-
That was also my point.
No argument from me against the specifics of O'Neill's legacy here.
-
I am not going to do the quotathon thing, but the point that was originally made is that manager's are largely judged on their legacy, I don't think that is necessarily the case.
Fair enough, but I'd say "legacy" isn't just about the situation when they leave, going forward, it also includes achievements, which is probably where it all gets a bit murky, it really depends how you look at it.
-
Legacies tend to last because fans remember something notable, rather than dwelling on the failures: when SrAlex finally goes, will many people be interested in the poor signings and the excessive fees paid for Veron, the Djemba twins, etc? Not really - the focus will be on the trophies.
Clough's managerial career may have ended ignominiously but the Forest fans I know can - like us - wallow in the fading glory of having won the Euroepan Cup.
MON leaves no postive legacy for us because he won nothing; his positive impact was transient (and the negative impact pretty damned lasting).
Football doesn't reward 'almost' and 'if only'. Nor does its fans revere managers who tried and failed.
Much.
-
In 1982 Ron Saunders and Bobby Robson left behing strong sides that were also relatively young. Over the next few years the people running Ipswich grudgingly sold their heroes to bigger clubs who paid bigger wages for decent money. The person running Villa seemed in a hurry to practically give away a number of players for some reason. I think Ipswich got as much for Russell Osman and Alan Brazil as we got for Rimmer, Swain, Gibson, McNaught, Mortimer, Bremner and Morley.
-
As a slight aside, what sort of legacy did 'arry leave at Portsmouth? He was undoubtedly successful, and that FA Cup win was exceptional for them in modern times, but the club has gone to pot since!
-
As a slight aside, what sort of legacy did 'arry leave at Portsmouth? He was undoubtedly successful, and that FA Cup win was exceptional for them in modern times, but the club has gone to pot since!
I've always thought that some managers like to leave clubs in as much turmoil as possible, with the thought that failure after they have left will only reflect positively on them. It's not a coincidence that this happened at a number of clubs that certain managers have been at.
-
Certainly at a number of clubs Harry Redknapps been at.
-
Within very recent memory (ie any football person who grew up in the 90s should remember), Brian Little, Big Ron, John Gregory and even DO'L either took us to sixth or above yet the media never bang on about it.
The narrative we continue to be subjected to of 'plucky little Aston Villa finishing sixth under MON three seasons in a row' is what really bugs me about MON's time at villa. We were never out of the top eight between 1996 and 2002 and managed to finish 4th and 5th in that time not to mention finishing second twice in the early 1990s.
So sixth under MON was a reasonable achievement for villa and nothing more. He brought dynamism, a feel-good factor, positive media coverage and a sense that we were the next big thing. However, he achieved nothing of note. By that I mean his tenure was, on balance, pretty unremarkable when viewed alongside the club's achievements in say the mid 1970s, the early 1980s or the mid 1990s.
-
So sixth under MON was a reasonable achievement for villa and nothing more. He brought dynamism, a feel-good factor, positive media coverage and a sense that we were the next big thing. However, he achieved nothing of note. By that I mean his tenure was, on balance, pretty unremarkable when viewed alongside the club's achievements in say the mid 1970s, the early 1980s or the mid 1990s.
Sums it up nicely.
-
Which way is the H&V wind blowing today?
Do we love him again?
-
Within very recent memory (ie any football person who grew up in the 90s should remember), Brian Little, Big Ron, John Gregory and even DO'L either took us to sixth or above yet the media never bang on about it.
The narrative we continue to be subjected to of 'plucky little Aston Villa finishing sixth under MON three seasons in a row' is what really bugs me about MON's time at villa. We were never out of the top eight between 1996 and 2002 and managed to finish 4th and 5th in that time not to mention finishing second twice in the early 1990s.
So sixth under MON was a reasonable achievement for villa and nothing more. He brought dynamism, a feel-good factor, positive media coverage and a sense that we were the next big thing. However, he achieved nothing of note. By that I mean his tenure was, on balance, pretty unremarkable when viewed alongside the club's achievements in say the mid 1970s, the early 1980s or the mid 1990s.
Excellent post.
-
Today he killed Madeleine McCann
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
-
Today? How did he hide her for so long?
Was she a non-playing squad member?
-
Today he killed Madeleine McCann
Sue him Martin!
-
Killed her and ate her. Then went out and left the light on
-
That will always be remembered as his legacy. That and Harewood
-
He ate Harewood and Maddie?
-
Cheers Dave and Eastie.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
Which is strange because he talks a lot and says nothing. He doesn't actually give them anything decent unlike their other favourites like Redknapp or Holloway. I think it's their 'closest thing to Clough' fixation, which as far as quotes and headlines goes doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
-
Blimey I only just saw the video and can only say those guys have O'Neill totally sussed, which surprised me as they are journalists. Practically word for word the criticisms aimed at him by myself and many other non-believers on here for many months even before he left us.
Still I wouldn't have complained too much if he'd left us with a league championship trophy in the cabinet, a European Cup final within reach and a team containing players like Spink, Williams, Gibson, Cowans, Evans and Shaw with many years of service ahead of them.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
I think the latter is a symptom of the former though. O'Neill was (and still is, just) a national story, over and above a local one. This is why the Villa briefly became media favourites but also why the local journos had their noses put out of joint because it wasn't "their" club any more. Now that O'Neill has gone, and our fortunes have declined, they've got their club back again and probably prefer it that way.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
I think the latter is a symptom of the former though. O'Neill was (and still is, just) a national story, over and above a local one. This is why the Villa briefly became media favourites but also why the local journos had their noses put out of joint because it wasn't "their" club any more. Now that O'Neill has gone, and our fortunes have declined, they've got their club back again and probably prefer it that way.
Even the local writers for the nationals didn't like him, though.
-
I don't have any first-hand experience, but I gather that some hacks regard PL as `hard work'.
-
Even the local writers for the nationals didn't like him, though.
I'm sure that's true dave. All I'm saying is I can see why local journos might have disliked O'Neill, for reasons other than his personality.
-
Even the local writers for the nationals didn't like him, though.
I'm sure that's true dave. All I'm saying is I can see why local journos might have disliked O'Neill, for reasons other than his personality.
Definitely. I can imagine he believed they were part of the whole Villa package he was gracing with his presence.
-
I don't have any first-hand experience, but I gather that some hacks regard PL as `hard work'.
I'm sure that's the case: he's not exactly Mr Personality, is he.
-
I've enjoyed reading this thread - some really good points well made.
A couple of observations.
(1) I've said in the past that I miss MON. However, I now realize that what I actually miss is that feeling we had during the first couple of years of his tenure of the whole club moving onwards and upwards together. I think at that moment in time we would have had that feeling with any charismatic manager.
(2) In football, legacy is more about what you achieve for future generations of supporters to vicariously enjoy. It has much less to do with what you bequeath your successor. I think that's probably to do with the fact that most managerial tenures end on a negative note, if not outright failure, and the sack.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
I think the latter is a symptom of the former though. O'Neill was (and still is, just) a national story, over and above a local one. This is why the Villa briefly became media favourites but also why the local journos had their noses put out of joint because it wasn't "their" club any more. Now that O'Neill has gone, and our fortunes have declined, they've got their club back again and probably prefer it that way.
Even the local writers for the nationals didn't like him, though.
Posted this before, but this is a classic MON interview. Tries to brush off the interviewer's questions with an attempt at a joke, but when it doesn't work he gets very touchy!!
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
Indeed. We had a very interesting conversation with two of them after one of the pre season games in Portugal, only a few days before he left. The end was well and truly, nigh.
-
Great post about 6th place. It really boils my piss when the media, and even some of our own fans, make out it was some fantastic achievement for the club.
My first game was 1975, and since then only 1 manager who has had more than 1 season at the club has failed to finish in the top 6 at least once. Step forward Mr Turner. So it's hardly the great achievement it's made out to be when Saunders, Barton, SGT1, BFR, Little, Gregory and even Mr Fickle managed it. A few of those actually managed to win something as well.
So well done Pube Head, you are the 6th most successful Villa manager in my time despite having the best working conditions of any of them. That's your legacy for me, you're not actually that good a manager.
-
How would O'Neill have lasted under the leadership of Doug Ellis? There is no chance that Ellis would have stood for another big ego. I regret thanking Ellis, personally, for bringing O'Neill to the Villa. It makes me want to put my fingers down my throat to make me spew up.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
I think the latter is a symptom of the former though. O'Neill was (and still is, just) a national story, over and above a local one. This is why the Villa briefly became media favourites but also why the local journos had their noses put out of joint because it wasn't "their" club any more. Now that O'Neill has gone, and our fortunes have declined, they've got their club back again and probably prefer it that way.
Even the local writers for the nationals didn't like him, though.
Posted this before, but this is a classic MON interview. Tries to brush off the interviewer's questions with an attempt at a joke, but when it doesn't work he gets very touchy!!
Marvellous. I love the "Do you know who I am?" look that descends over his face when the interviewer persists.
-
If any of you are watching the new series of Homeland, there is a bit where a previously dismissed and deemed crazy ex CIA woman is shown a video clip of the American Marine that she was convinced had been 'turned' to a terrorist, whilst being held hostage for 7 years or so - the premise for the whole of series 1.
In the clip, he is preparing to become a suicide bomber - and explains his reasons to camera.
Her first words when she was shown the clip were '' I was right, I was right !''
Thats how we should feel .
Tell you what, that is uncanny, that is exactly what i was going to post about this video.
-
I don't have any first-hand experience, but I gather that some hacks regard PL as `hard work'.
I'm sure that's the case: he's not exactly Mr Personality, is he.
I understand that viewpoint. He does a fair bit of Scottish mumbling and when you can understand what he's saying it's usually common platitudes and clichés. But I have to say I was very impressed by him in that fan forum talk he did (on avtv) in the summer. And I liked the way he cheekily interrupted Norwich's player Pilkington giving an interview to Radio Norfolk after the game last weekend. He's likeable, like MON before him, but more humble.
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
-
Never have I known a Manager have such a large gaggle of journalists on his side.
It's interesting that while the nationals remained in thrall to himself, the local writers couldn't stand him.
Indeed. We had a very interesting conversation with two of them after one of the pre season games in Portugal, only a few days before he left. The end was well and truly, nigh.
Come on now dc5 you old tease ,please reveal more? Don't keep us dangling my friend.
-
Posted this before, but this is a classic MON interview. Tries to brush off the interviewer's questions with an attempt at a joke, but when it doesn't work he gets very touchy!!
Okay, so he was somewhat younger and less experienced, but I'm surprised on this that he could not provide some reasonable response to a reasonable question. The supposedly intelligent and erudite O'Neill looks rather limp in this clip. Interesting; I'd not seen it before.
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.
Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances .
-
Mon hits back at villa critics!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/sunderland-v-aston-villa-preview-1413253
O’Neill splashed out a combined £30million on Ashley Young, Stewart Downing and James Milner.
Although that trio have since been sold for a profit, the net spending under O'Neill topped £80m and he departed in the wake of US owner Randy Lerner announcing he would have to operate a ‘sell to buy’ transfer policy.
The Northern Irishman has hit back, insisting he worked within a budget under Lerner.
He said: “There’s been a bit of re-writing of history since I left Villa - obviously the people who stay get to re-write history.
“There was an idea that, as results improved immensely there, so did the investment.
"Actually, Aston Villa spent £30m four or five months after I left. The wage-bill got higher.”
O’Neill wanted to make his point to Lerner, though, and said: “I have mentioned in my programme notes that there’s been a bit of re-writing history there. It took a bit of time, but we were getting there.
“It was a very fine side in place at the end, but it takes a bit of time. There was an idea that as results improved immensely at Villa, so did the investment.
“Actually, Aston Villa spent £30m four or five months after I left. The wage bill got higher.”
Sunderland’s struggles this term and at the back end of last season — a sorry Prem run of one win from 16 — have reminded O’Neill of his early days in the Midlands.
He added: “I would expect to be judged over a season I must admit. People can say what they want, I can’t change it. The only way I can change it is by winning some football matches.
“Managing is a privilege anyway, it was a privilege to manage Villa. But I came in here last season and joked that having an affiliation with Sunderland might give me a couple of games.
“I’ve completed 11 months and my ambition is to build a side fans can be really proud of and can actually make an impact.”
-
Oh, goody, MON making comments about us in the press. Did he not hear the responses meted out to Sullivan and Green?
-
"We've tried our best to come out with a response, and so all we can say say is, fuck off you pubeheaded twat".
-
Oh, goody, MON making comments about us in the press. Did he not hear the responses meted out to Sullivan and Green?
He's hardly ripped into the club.
-
Oh, goody, MON making comments about us in the press. Did he not hear the responses meted out to Sullivan and Green?
Obviously not, but i am looking forward to the match thread and the post match thread when we can hopefully shove some words back up his hooter. The bloke threw his dummy out and dropped us in the shit and for that he can never be forgiven.
-
Not sure how he dropped us in the shit. It shouldn't have been that difficult for a new manager to take control of a team that was one of the better teams in the league.
Besides, I think I've read more about MON than any other manager on here ever. You're adding to his legend.
Move on, nothing to see here.
-
Oh, goody, MON making comments about us in the press. Did he not hear the responses meted out to Sullivan and Green?
He's hardly ripped into the club.
The fact he's even mentioned it says to me he's concerned about his image being tarnished by some of his shortcomings here being brought up.
-
Oh, goody, MON making comments about us in the press. Did he not hear the responses meted out to Sullivan and Green?
He's hardly ripped into the club.
The fact he's even mentioned it says to me he's concerned about his image being tarnished by some of his shortcomings here being brought up.
Yes, it's conspicuous in it's inclusion I agree.
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.
Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances .
So how come we didn't have a pot to piss in when Ellis left?
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.
Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances .
So how come we didn't have a pot to piss in when Ellis left?
The club certainly didn't have huge debts like many other clubs at the time.
Did we have a decent stadium?
Did we win two Wembley finals in the 90s and finish runners up twice having come close to winning the title.
He had his faults but he wouldn't have made the mistakes Lerner has in the last 2 years .
If anything doug kept too tight a hold on things as if we had added a couple of quality players to very good sides we may have achieved more, the likes of juninho or Keane at the time would have been good additions.
-
He's likeable, like MON before him, but more humble.
I was chuffed when we got MON as manager but can't say I ever found him likeable. His so called wit, charm and intelligence always came across to me as vindictiveness, arrogance, snideness and defensiveness, and I said as much while he was still our manager. He's about as likeable as Malcolm Tucker. I can't say Lambert comes across as particularly likeable either, but then I can barely understand a word he says.
-
He's likeable, like MON before him, but more humble.
I was chuffed when we got MON as manager but can't say I ever found him likeable. His so called wit, charm and intelligence always came across to me as vindictiveness, arrogance, snideness and defensiveness, and I said as much while he was still our manager. He's about as likeable as Malcolm Tucker. I can't say Lambert comes across as particularly likeable either, but then I can barely understand a word he says.
That's unfair I think, Malcolm Tucker is likeable in his own way.
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.
Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances .
So how come we didn't have a pot to piss in when Ellis left?
, did we have a decent stadium?
Did we win two Wembley finals in the 90s and finish runners up twice having come close to winning the league ?
The answer to all of these is yes - he had his faults but he wouldn't have made the mistakes Lerner has in the last 2 years .
He treated the manager of our greatest moment disgracefully. Barry Fry and small heath showed more respect to Barton than Ellis ever did. He relegated us. He thought Graham Turner and Billy McNeill were good enough to manage Villa. He sanctioned the signing of a lot of overpaid players, especially under Gregory. He named Witton Lane after himself. He cocked up building it. He destroyed the Trinity Road. We were heading for relegation a second time under him until Lerner stepped in. We didn't have a pot to piss in when he sold us to Lerner.
-
He's likeable, like MON before him, but more humble.
I was chuffed when we got MON as manager but can't say I ever found him likeable. His so called wit, charm and intelligence always came across to me as vindictiveness, arrogance, snideness and defensiveness, and I said as much while he was still our manager. He's about as likeable as Malcolm Tucker. I can't say Lambert comes across as particularly likeable either, but then I can barely understand a word he says.
That's unfair I think, Malcolm Tucker is likeable in his own way.
As an amused onlooker yes, in the same way that I can now kind of like watching MON being a tw*t as he's no longer any thing to do with us.
-
I still think the sea change which happened at Villa Park was not the arrival of Randy Lerner or the appointment of O'Neill but the departure of Doug Ellis.
It reminds me of the plot of The Pit and The Pendulum. Ellis went, phew, what a relief. O'Neill and Lerner arrive, wonderful pendulum free days at VP. What's this? F*ck! it's the pendulum. Enter Houllier and TSM and we wish we had somebody as football savvy and less naive than Lerner and Faulkner, Ellis for example.
Maybe, Brian, but I think the difference would have been that Ol' Herbert would not have allowed the wage bill to spiral out of control in the way that it seems RL did. If MON had come in to work under Doug (which I don't think he would have done), we would not have made the large number of mediocre signings on big salaries. So, we'd never have got into the position we found ourselves in 2010.
Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances .
So how come we didn't have a pot to piss in when Ellis left?
, did we have a decent stadium?
Did we win two Wembley finals in the 90s and finish runners up twice having come close to winning the league ?
The answer to all of these is yes - he had his faults but he wouldn't have made the mistakes Lerner has in the last 2 years .
He treated the manager of our greatest moment disgracefully. Barry Fry and small heath showed more respect to Barton than Ellis ever did. He relegated us. He thought Graham Turner and Billy McNeill were good enough to manage Villa. He sanctioned the signing of a lot of overpaid players, especially under Gregory. He named Witton Lane after himself. He cocked up building it. He destroyed the Trinity Road. We were heading for relegation a second time under him until Lerner stepped in. We didn't have a pot to piss in when he sold us to Lerner.
Like I said Ellis had his faults but it wasn't all bad under him by any means -you mention turner and McNeill but you don't mention Taylor, little and Atkinson.
Doug made many mistakes but he also did many good things .
You say we were heading for relegation before lerner stepped in , Are we really much better off with Lerner - I doubt it!
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
-
He's likeable, like MON before him, but more humble.
I was chuffed when we got MON as manager but can't say I ever found him likeable. His so called wit, charm and intelligence always came across to me as vindictiveness, arrogance, snideness and defensiveness, and I said as much while he was still our manager. He's about as likeable as Malcolm Tucker. I can't say Lambert comes across as particularly likeable either, but then I can barely understand a word he says.
That's unfair I think, Malcolm Tucker is likeable in his own way.
As an amused onlooker yes, in the same way that I can now kind of like watching MON being a tw*t as he's no longer any thing to do with us.
That's true. It's more fun watching him piss in someone else's tent.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
-
It's amazing how quickly how bad it was under Ellis is forgotten by some. Our successes during his time were despite him, not because of him.
He owned the club for 30-odd years yet our most successful achievements were during the window he wasn't at the helm. He then proceeded to carry on as though that time never happened.
On several occasions we were almost back there but his tightness held us back.
And he thought the club was there to benefit him, rather than the other way round.
If Ellis were still in charge we'd already have been relegated, let alone having threads about whether we're worried about it.
-
Ellis was a lucky chairman. When we were bad Blues were worse. When we were skint along came Sky, flotation and NTL. When we were relegated Sir Graham appointed us. As for him not over-spending, remember the problems Gregory caused. As was said at the time, we were a couple more Balabans away from becoming Sheffield Wednesday.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94. To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.
-
It's amazing how quickly how bad it was under Ellis is forgotten by some. Our successes during his time were despite him, not because of him.
He owned the club for 30-odd years yet our most successful achievements were during the window he wasn't at the helm. He then proceeded to carry on as though that time never happened.
On several occasions we were almost back there but his tightness held us back.
And he thought the club was there to benefit him, rather than the other way round.
If Ellis were still in charge we'd already have been relegated, let alone having threads about whether we're worried about it.
You can't have it both ways. If you are to blame him for the bad times then by default you have to credit him with the good times as well.
-
It's amazing how quickly how bad it was under Ellis is forgotten by some. Our successes during his time were despite him, not because of him.
He owned the club for 30-odd years yet our most successful achievements were during the window he wasn't at the helm. He then proceeded to carry on as though that time never happened.
On several occasions we were almost back there but his tightness held us back.
And he thought the club was there to benefit him, rather than the other way round.
If Ellis were still in charge we'd already have been relegated, let alone having threads about whether we're worried about it.
Well said that man. In my time of supporting Villa(since early 80s)we were lucky to only go down once,and Doug's terrible appointments were the cause when we did go down.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94. To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.
We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94. To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.
We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.
We also finished above man utd and Liverpool under him in our respective runners up seasons, he was good and bad , not just bad.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94. To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.
We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.
I would if I knew him.
-
Back on topic, surely the fact that, after a massive boost in investment, it's even possible to suggest that we'd have done as well or better under Doug suggests that MoN's transfer policy and Lerner's inexperience in handling the former have ruined our best chance to join 'the elite' for a long time. For that reason alone he deserves any vitriol directed at him from Villa fans. A better thought out, sustainable transfer policy in his time and we'd be in and the top 4 places still.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94. To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.
We finished below Halifax in the third division under Doug. Maybe we should ask a few people far more qualified than us about him. Ron Saunders for a start.
We also finished above man utd and Liverpool under him in our respective runners up seasons, he was good and bad , not just bad.
That's the point I was trying to make.
-
I don't mention them because everyone knows about them and still acknowledges them. There seems to have been a lot of revisionism about Ellis over the last couple of years so i'm pointing that he wasn't a success story or financial wizard.
Everyone knows about Turner and McNeil as well, and relegation in '87. I'll never forget how shit we were in those days. We're not far off it now, by the way.
Do they though, or is it a case of it's easier to remember the LC wins and the 1 good season under BFR and SGT1 than all the crap we endured under him? There's been a fair bit of "Ellis would never have signed a small heath manager" and so on over the last year or so. He may not have, but he still managed to relegate us. And came very close to doing it a few more times as well.
Under Atkinson we went from finishing 17th to 7th to 2nd in two years and then won the League Cup in '94. That's hardly just one good season, despite his sacking in late '94. To say otherwise is just unfair, in my opinion. Also I'm absolutely positive Ellis would never have employed the manager of Small Heath just a month or two after he relegated them, and nothing anyone says will ever persuade me otherwise.
Yes we endured a frustrating time under Ellis, but feck me what we're experiencing now is as bad as anything we endured under Doug's chairmanship. Lerner seems clueless and he seems to be dragging us down with what it is my opinion the worst team since the mid 80s.
I've already said he wouldn't have appointed McLeish. But he did think that the right man to take over a club that had recently won the European Cup was the manager of Shrewsbury. Or that the man to save us from the drop was the manager of another bottom 3 club. 2 cups, 2 failed title challenges and 7 16th or lower finishes is what Ellis delivered after he returned.
And don't forget we were heading for relegation under BFR before Little just about saved us. The last 26 league games under BFR gave us 3 wins.
-
Stitch that you bottling four eyed fuck
-
1 shot on target at home. He really is a busted flush. I don't miss him or his one dimensional play in the slightest.
-
I can see the wanker quitting in the next few weeks.
He's been sussed, good and proper.
-
We have a new manager now. A good one! Let the legend that was MON lie..It's gone and done with for me.
Randy screwed us when the money got tight and made us suffer huge embarrassment for what seemed an eternity.
It is a new era. We can do, and we will do it. All power to PL!!
-
I can see the wanker quitting in the next few weeks.
He's been sussed, good and proper.
With the booing, I reckon he'll figure this is the best time for him to bail out and protect his reputation - the accusations would be that the Sunderland fans drove him out.
-
I can see the wanker quitting in the next few weeks.
He's been sussed, good and proper.
With the booing, I reckon he'll figure this is the best time for him to bail out and protect his reputation - the accusations would be that the Sunderland fans drove him out.
Can't see him going yet but if at Xmas things are no better he may walk.
-
By my reckoning that's 3 league wins in 23 games for him. Just imagine if he wasn't such a motivator......
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
This
-
I was at an ex Villa players daughters birthday party today, a guy who played under O'Neill for us and I got chatting to him re O'Neill and he said, I quote "I don't know anyone who thinks he's a good manager" and confirmed that most Villa players were delighted to see him go. I asked him about his famous man management skills and he looked at me like I was a mad man.
-
Ellis for all his faults kept his hand on the tiller and a tight control on the finances.
Ellis become Chairman again when Villa were the Champions of Europe.
Four years later we were relegated. Don't get me started about Ellis' long list of condemnations on the day we won our first away match in the PL this season.
-
No doubt the Sunderland players will be given the whole week off training as punishment for the performance today.
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
I remember during the Houllier season having a go at people unhappy at the state of the club by posting things like "I can't believe people used to want MON out when he was here! You'd take him back now!". I'd like to apologise.
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
I remember during the Houllier season having a go at people unhappy at the state of the club by posting things like "I can't believe people used to want MON out when he was here! You'd take him back now!". I'd like to apologise.
no need, there were people who would go into an absoloute rage if you even flickered any sugestion that he was not in fact the mesiah
-
I like Sunderland as a club but I wouldn't bet against them for relegation.
-
I can see the wanker quitting in the next few weeks.
He's been sussed, good and proper.
With the booing, I reckon he'll figure this is the best time for him to bail out and protect his reputation - the accusations would be that the Sunderland fans drove him out.
We said something similar during the game when our fans gave him a quick rendition of 'you're getting sacked in the morning'. He'll walk before he gets sacked.
-
Pauline, you're in Edinburgh, get off the Internet and enjoy the city!
-
Jon is just off to work. Tomorrow we hit the city in style. Can't wait.
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
This
I was never a fan when we first got him, although I admit he did bring a feel good factor to the club, however, i now fear most of that was down to the new ownership.
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
I'll drink to that.
-
He looked pretty subdued in the post match interview. Is he ok do you think? *clutches pearls*
-
We have a new manager now. A good one! Let the legend that was MON lie..
...
I agree.
Well, actually, I don't.
I loved every useless minute his team spent on the pitch today, and the post match thread has bettered anything the Bard managed to put together.
-
Enjoy MON's misery now that he is in lesser circumstances, while you will. He did well, for us, while he was here; to a point. Randy f*cked him and maybe he, MON, f*cked himself to a degree. It is over now; over!. PL is the man now. Leave MON to sort his new NE problems out.
Up the Villa! That is what it is about and what I care about..I care about the future not the past! The past was great, and I love what we did, but the future can be better, and it will be! The rest is irrelevant!!
-
We've been a bit harsh on Martin recently, so i'd like to sing him a song that conveys my respect for the man, the myth, the legend, that is Martin O'Neill.
To the tune of the city is ours: Pubes on his head, pubes on his head, Martin O'Neill, has pubes on his head.
I'm dead mature me.
-
Hope is not available only in digital download?
I always love the smell of vinyl in the morning...it smells like victory.
Pubeheads don't surf.
-
You saw his face towards the end of the game and you knew he knew that it was over. It was fucking priceless. I fancy us to take 6 points off them this season too. If that contributes to sending them down then fantastic. Nowt against Sunderland, but I'd love O Neill to have a relegation on his CV.
-
It ain't over till she sings... I was one of his biggest fans and doubts only started after Moscow. Like Tony Blair winning his first election-two good years then the rest of the time going backwards.
Time to move on and wish him no harm for the future. 8)
-
He looked pretty subdued in the post match interview. Is he ok do you think? *clutches pearls*
Was he doing that looking at the floor thing? I do hope so.
-
I would also like the apologize to the people who found MON out before I. I was very much in the pro MON camp right up until I saw him spunking Sunderlands money. We have a great manager in Lambert, and the future will be great,if we stick with it.
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
I remember during the Houllier season having a go at people unhappy at the state of the club by posting things like "I can't believe people used to want MON out when he was here! You'd take him back now!". I'd like to apologise.
no need, there were people who would go into an absoloute rage if you even flickered any sugestion that he was not in fact the mesiah
Agreed.
During his time here some people became Martin O'Neill supporters rather than Villa supporters.
The lap dog devotion to anything he said and did was sickening.
To quote the guy who sat in front of me last season.
'The sun rose and set with him, as far as i'm concerned, we should break the bank to get him back.'
-
He'll walk before he gets sacked.
And then he'll have the nerve to take the poor buggers to court.
-
The evidence was there for anybody to see it if they wanted to. He had only ever achieved "success" in Scotland. To not finish in the top two as the manager of Glasgow Delusional or Celtic was a feat only managed by somebody very specially incompetent.
The fact that he was obsessed with bringing in second rate Scottish players was further proof if proof was needed that his bar was set at jock level and that is about somewhere between the Faeroe Islands and Cyprus.
-
To not finish in the top two as the manager of Glasgow Delusional or Celtic was a feat only managed by somebody very specially incompetent.
I don't know who you mean.
-
I would like to raise a glass to all those who realised he was a one trick pony about 18 months before every one else did. Cheers, UTV
I'd go along with that. I was a big fan of him while he was here due to some great away days under him but hated him for leaving us in the most childish, toys out of the pram, selfish way possible.
Then you look back on the money he spunked on average players and the way he has continued to make the same mistakes at Sunderland and you realise that the game has moved on and he hasn't.
-
An interesting thread here on a Sunderland forum saying the fact John Robertson hasn't joined MON this time may be a factor - http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740377
-
An interesting thread here on a Sunderland forum saying the fact John Robertson hasn't joined MON this time may be a factor - http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740377
Just read the 'No Respect' thread. Quite embarrassing. I cringe every time the 19 minutes finishes now.
-
An interesting thread here on a Sunderland forum saying the fact John Robertson hasn't joined MON this time may be a factor - http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740377
Just read the 'No Respect' thread. Quite embarrassing. I cringe every time the 19 minutes finishes now.
Interesting read that Peter, sad to say some truth in it as the empty seats mlord chant really is quite ridiculous .
Also regarding petrov ,he is a villa player and fair enough we wish to show our support for him, but opponents fans probably don't know about the applause or don't want to join in- that's their choice ,no lack of respect.
-
An interesting thread here on a Sunderland forum saying the fact John Robertson hasn't joined MON this time may be a factor - http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740377
Just read the 'No Respect' thread. Quite embarrassing. I cringe every time the 19 minutes finishes now.
You can see some of ours looking round, almost counting how many home fans are joining in so they can start slagging them. It's worse then celebrating a goal by goading the opposition and that's pretty pathetic. What was a great show of appreciation has now become an embarrassment.
-
Agree that song is cringeworthy and ridculous. Also emabarrasing is their derision at the empty seats song from a tiny away support and a club which very rarely sells out these days.
-
The evidence was there for anybody to see it if they wanted to. He had only ever achieved "success" in Scotland. To not finish in the top two as the manager of Glasgow Delusional or Celtic was a feat only managed by somebody very specially incompetent.
He also took Celtic to a European final which is a feat I don't think anyone will be equaling any time soon.
-
Same old tiresome rubbish from Fletch and hawkeye there. Three years later, aren't you bored of pretending that anyone who thought he was a good manager called him the messiah?
-
Same old tiresome rubbish from Fletch and hawkeye there. Three years later, aren't you bored of pretending that anyone who thought he was a good manager called him the messiah?
They didn't say that though. There were many, many people who thought the son shone out of his arse, and those not joining in with the adulation and who pointed out the stupidity of the majority of his signings plus his dull football suffered dog's abuse.
-
http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/
-
After trawling through his awful spelling, I deduced that hawkeye attempted to type 'people flew into an absolute rage when anyone flickered a suggestion that MON was not, in fact, the Messiah'. Fletch agreed.
Personally, I never read a post that disagreed with the fact that he was not the Messiah.
I can't remember any posts that angrily said anything along the lines of 'HOW DARE YOU EVEN SUGGEST HE'S NOT THE MESSIAH, HE IS! BOY, AM I IN A RAGE!'
I can remember a lot of posts saying 'I wish these idiots would stop saying I think he's the Messiah when I just think he's a good manager'.
-
An interesting thread here on a Sunderland forum saying the fact John Robertson hasn't joined MON this time may be a factor - http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740377
Just read the 'No Respect' thread. Quite embarrassing. I cringe every time the 19 minutes finishes now.
Are they Liverpool in disguise?
-
You can see some of ours looking round, almost counting how many home fans are joining in so they can start slagging them. It's worse then celebrating a goal by goading the opposition and that's pretty pathetic.
Agreed. Yesterday the "No respect" chant started the moment the applause finished. It's almost automatic now
-
What a load of bollocks this 'no respect' thing is. If anyone thinks anybody is purposely disrespecting or snubbing Petrov they need their heads testing.
I agree it's embarrassing. Shame.
-
It's about time we took a stance and maybe start booing when the 'no respect' starts. It's the only way some muppets will learn. Otherwise we're going to look a joke if we carry on.
-
What a load of bollocks this 'no respect' thing is. If anyone thinks anybody is purposely disrespecting or snubbing Petrov they need their heads testing.
I agree it's embarrassing. Shame.
Spot on mate - it's cringeworthy .
-
After trawling through his awful spelling, I deduced that hawkeye attempted to type 'people flew into an absolute rage when anyone flickered a suggestion that MON was not, in fact, the Messiah'. Fletch agreed.
I think Hawkeye's comment was exaggerated for comic effect, but people on here did rabidly defend him when questions were asked about his managerial decisions.
For all the bile that he's had on here for the last few days, I still know some that love him and won't hear a bad word said about him.
He's also a subject that will still be talked about 2 years down the line as his decision to do one still reverberates around the club to this day, although that's not purely his fault, more the arse headed leadership decisions that have been made ever since.
-
It's about time we took a stance and maybe start booing when the 'no respect' starts. It's the only way some muppets will learn. Otherwise we're going to look a joke if we carry on.
Unfortunately, they'll think the boos are for the opposing fans not themselves
-
Fair enough Fletch.
Personally speaking, I always thought he was a good manager, and I think his record with us (and before us) suggested that. I think he bottled the chance to show he was any better than that by leaving, which in effect was him saying 'I haven't the ability to work within financial constraints'.
Now, I think age or the ability to relate to players has caught up with him and he's probably not even a good manager anymore, same as what happened to Big Ron.
-
Fair enough Fletch.
Personally speaking, I always thought he was a good manager, and I think his record with us (and before us) suggested that. I think he bottled that chance to show he was any better than that by leaving, which in effect was him saying 'I haven't the ability to work with financial constraints'.
Now, I think age or the ability to relate to players has caught up with him and he's probably not even a good manager anymore, same as what happened to Big Ron.
Agreed.
I think his arrival here blew the cobwebs away and made me feel an enthusiasm I hadn't felt in years.
He hit the proverbial glass celing and fucked off knowing that the only way was down (anything below 6th)
The real bitch is the way things have been handled ever since, my 2 cats could have run the club better and we can't wholly blame the last 2 and a bit years on O'Neill.
I also agree with others that his heart doesn't seem in it at Sunderland.
I think when he leaves/get's pushed, he'll retire.
-
Yesterday's Daily Express had a pre-match feature, by Niall Hickman, inevitably with the prime focus on MON, which had this amazing paragraph:-
"At Villa Park, where his relationship with American owner Randy Lerner eventually went sour, he led his side to three top-six finishes in a row, an astonishing achievement in view of the lack of investment with which he had to contend."
Whilst eastie provides a link on Page 17 to a pre-match Daily Mirror thread, which alludes to MON's programme notes, I thought it worth quoting MON's programme notes from yesterday, insofar as they relate to Villa, verbatim:-
"We return this afternoon to a very important Barclays Premier League game against Aston Villa, a club that I was very privileged to manage for four seasons starting in August 2006. After the trials and tribulations of a first season at Villa Park the club finished with three consecutive top six finishes, qualifying for European football on all three occasions. Our ultimate season saw the club reach the final of the League Cup at Wembley, losing contentiously 2-1 to Manchester United. A couple of weeks later Wembley was visited again, this time for a semi-final FA Cup game against eventual winners Chelsea. Four or five weeks later the club finished the Barclays Premier League campaign with 64 points, the highest points total the club has achieved in almost 20 years. I mention this because there has been a tendency to re-write history. In January 2011, the club reportedly spent £30million in the transfer market some five months after my backroom staff and I had departed."
MON's clearly still got some friends in the press, and is a very sensitive chappie! Personally, I consider it was well worth driving 710 miles in the space of five days to see my team record two away victories, the latter being particularly sweet as it was such an accomplished performance against the Messiah!
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
-
I'm not sure what point Pubey is trying to make there. Unless he's suggesting that rumours he walked out on us because there was no more money to spend are untrue. And he's right. He walked out on us because the owner didn't trust him to spend his money any more.
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
http://blogs.birminghammail.net/astonvilla/2012/11/re-righting-a-ron-g-martin.html
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
True. Bent and Makoun weren't exactly the best bits of business the club has ever done.
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
True. Bent and Makoun weren't exactly the best bits of business the club has ever done.
How can anyone criticise signing Bent?
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
True. Bent and Makoun weren't exactly the best bits of business the club has ever done.
How can anyone criticise signing Bent?
because we now have Benteke and short memories
-
I wasn't really getting at anything like that in my post, just saying that in his programme notes all O'Neill does is reel off some facts.
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
True. Bent and Makoun weren't exactly the best bits of business the club has ever done.
How can anyone criticise signing Bent?
I'm not criticising the signing! Just that when you think about it we did spend a lot that January, we tend to associate the spending with the MON era but Houllier had a fair wad to spend too. (Just for the pedants, I'm not sticking up for MON and began losing the faith after Moscow when he blew a decent chance for us to win a prestigious trophy).
-
the bent money all came from the fact we knew Young was going in the Summer , I believe Oneil would have been given that money if he stayed and been left in the same predicament
-
the bent money all came from the fact we knew Young was going in the Summer , I believe Oneil would have been given that money if he stayed and been left in the same predicament
Indeed. That's what it seemed like at the time.
When we signed Bent, Makoun and Bradley that time it felt like we had an unbelievable squad that was seriously underachieving.
-
i get emails from safc after i bought a scarf for a mackem whose funeral i went to, it went on his coffin as a present from the locals of our pub. however i digress, below is the email i had from mon after yesterdays game.
SUNDERLAND 0 - 1 ASTON VILLA
Dear Mark,
We didn’t deserve to get beaten.
We probably should have won the game but the ball just didn’t drop for us today.
We’re not scoring goals, we’ve had people in and around the penalty area, but it just doesn’t seem to be happening for us.
I could not fault the players’ effort whatsoever. I think it was epitomised by a fantastic performance from Lee Cattermole.
It was as good a performance as I have seen from a player and he didn’t deserve to be on the losing side.
We drove at Villa and tried everything but we were unable to wear them down.
We need to be resilient. It’s been tough going and we’ve found ourselves in the situation where we’re not getting goals.
You wouldn’t think we would have that problem with all of the attacking players we have in the team.
We have to stick in at it and we’ll come back from this.
We have to remain strong and be resilient – we’re all in this together.
All the best,
Martin O'Neill
it wasnt the game i watched!
-
I am so glad I'm not on Martin O'Neill's mailing list. There's already enough lying bullshit in my inbox.
-
I am so glad I'm not on Martin O'Neill's mailing list. There's already enough lying bullshit in my inbox.
Did you get my email?
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
http://blogs.birminghammail.net/astonvilla/2012/11/re-righting-a-ron-g-martin.html
Quality.
-
Same old tiresome rubbish from Fletch and hawkeye there. Three years later, aren't you bored of pretending that anyone who thought he was a good manager called him the messiah?
They didn't say that though. There were many, many people who thought the son shone out of his arse, and those not joining in with the adulation and who pointed out the stupidity of the majority of his signings plus his dull football suffered dog's abuse.
Quite right, Risso.
I woud rather we hadnt set off down this road, but i have to say, i recall a few of us pointing out under MON that the football we played at home was one dimensional and predictable, that MON would not move us on, that his transfer policy was myopic, halfarsed and lazy, that he was spunking money on players we'd laugh at if rivals bought them, that he had no idea of tactics beyond getting the ball out to wingers and hoping for the best.
A few of us also pointed out that the ticking time bomb wasn't so much the fees but the wage bill.
It's all very well MON fans moaning they never thought he was the messiah, and that they didn't like being called happy clappers but I recall those of us who pointed out the above getting all sorts of abuse, being called misery arsed doom merchants, that we were nuts to be pointing these things out.
I recall "I'll take the opinion of a successful football manager over a load of Internet geeks, thank you very much" getting trotted out too.
Funny how things turn out, what with us being proved correct on all points.
-
I'm probably speaking for myself here but I think some of us who lost faith in MON after Moscow (and had even began to question his methods as early as the summer of 2007 when we made some pretty under-whelming signings) felt reluctant to air criticisms because things were going quite well. I remember agonising over an anti-MON post I made in March 2009 in which I criticised his tactics and made the point that our season seemed to lose momentum after we were knocked out of Europe. I had felt that way in a while but agonised over making the criticism because it sort of felt like I was 'biting the hand that fed me' so to speak.
I have a feeling there was a kind of 'Martin knows what he's doing' vibe about this place back then. By that I mean we tended to gloss over some of his more perplexing methods or obvious flaws because fundamentally he seemed to be taking us somewhere great.
I remember posting around that time (March 2009) that I couldn't see him taking us to the top four and that it would probably take another manager to bring us to that level.
-
Same old tiresome rubbish from Fletch and hawkeye there. Three years later, aren't you bored of pretending that anyone who thought he was a good manager called him the messiah?
They didn't say that though. There were many, many people who thought the son shone out of his arse, and those not joining in with the adulation and who pointed out the stupidity of the majority of his signings plus his dull football suffered dog's abuse.
Quite right, Risso.
I woud rather we hadnt set off down this road, but i have to say, i recall a few of us pointing out under MON that the football we played at home was one dimensional and predictable, that MON would not move us on, that his transfer policy was myopic, halfarsed and lazy, that he was spunking money on players we'd laugh at if rivals bought them, that he had no idea of tactics beyond getting the ball out to wingers and hoping for the best.
A few of us also pointed out that the ticking time bomb wasn't so much the fees but the wage bill.
It's all very well MON fans moaning they never thought he was the messiah, and that they didn't like being called happy clappers but I recall those of us who pointed out the above getting all sorts of abuse, being called misery arsed doom merchants, that we were nuts to be pointing these things out.
I recall "I'll take the opinion of a successful football manager over a load of Internet geeks, thank you very much" getting trotted out too.
Funny how things turn out, what with us being proved correct on all points.
There were some avid MON fans when he went that will defend him till the end of time. I was not one thankfully. Sunderland home night match with Cuellar at right back and us knackered on 60 minutes yet again was my final straw with him.
-
I was hoodwinked into the MON euphoria and thought he was some managerial genius and was amazed when we got him as our manager. When the transfers were being made, ie, selling Cahill for Knight and signing Harewood and Shorey I was a bit underwhelmed but I was into the idea MON could polish turds, as its put.
A lot of the excitement was also based on the arrival of Randy and the money being spent on infrastructure, facilities as well as the squad. The soundbites from the club were all so positive and as a Villa fan from an armchair (the last decade) like my self it was hard to understand some of the negative comments from a small minority. If only we had someone within the club who could have raised these same worries to the board about the way things were heading. Maybe we would never have been in such a financial mess.
-
Quite right, Risso.
I woud rather we hadnt set off down this road, but i have to say, i recall a few of us pointing out under MON that the football we played at home was one dimensional and predictable, that MON would not move us on, that his transfer policy was myopic, halfarsed and lazy, that he was spunking money on players we'd laugh at if rivals bought them, that he had no idea of tactics beyond getting the ball out to wingers and hoping for the best.
A few of us also pointed out that the ticking time bomb wasn't so much the fees but the wage bill.
It's all very well MON fans moaning they never thought he was the messiah, and that they didn't like being called happy clappers but I recall those of us who pointed out the above getting all sorts of abuse, being called misery arsed doom merchants, that we were nuts to be pointing these things out.
I recall "I'll take the opinion of a successful football manager over a load of Internet geeks, thank you very much" getting trotted out too.
Funny how things turn out, what with us being proved correct on all points.
Absolutely spot on. There were more than a few on here who simply would not entertain the idea that there was anything about O'Neill - the man or his methods - which warranted criticism and that doing so called into question your loyalty as a fan. Not a pleasant time.
-
Hmm, I can mainly recollect people being happy with with the good things (exciting counter attacking team full of promise for a couple of years), frustrated with the not-so-great things (slightly dull home games where we lacked the guile to break teams down in a league that increasingly became all too aware of how to nullify our 'plan A') and disgusted with the disgraceful thing (leaving us in the shit the way he did).
Football is a transient thing and it's VERY rare a manager is the right man for a club for longer than a handful of years a la Ferguson at Man Utd or Wenger at Arsenal. O'Neill was a good Villa manager who left under a black cloud. Nobody need apologise for supporting him while he was at the club.
-
I'm probably speaking for myself here but I think some of us who lost faith in MON after Moscow (and had even began to question his methods as early as the summer of 2007 when we made some pretty under-whelming signings) felt reluctant to air criticisms because things were going quite well.
That's the other thing.
At the time, there was also a widely held assumption when people moaned about MON that they wanted him sacked - as if you couldn't criticise a manager without wanting them to get the bullet. Which was, of course, utter nonsense.
-
Well obviously Niall hickman is talking bollocks, but it's hard to pick any holes in what MON said.
http://blogs.birminghammail.net/astonvilla/2012/11/re-righting-a-ron-g-martin.html
I'm glad you posted that link, Dave.
-
Hmm, I can mainly recollect people being happy with with the good things (exciting counter attacking team full of promise for a couple of years), frustrated with the not-so-great things (slightly dull home games where we lacked the guile to break teams down in a league that increasingly became all too aware of how to nullify our 'plan A') and disgusted with the disgraceful thing (leaving us in the shit the way he did)...
This, although his offloading of the good youngsters and their older, more expensive mediocre replacements started to irk me.
But it was the manner of his departure that was most irritating - spiteful and vindictive, and with no respect for the fans.
-
Quite incredible that he'd use the Programme notes and bulk emails to try and put his point across and belittle his former club. Pathetic, it's positively small time - shame.
-
Quite incredible that he'd use the Programme notes and bulk emails to try and put his point across and belittle his former club. Pathetic, it's positively small time - shame.
I didn't read "belittling": I read 'manager defensive and under pressure'.
-
I'm probably speaking for myself here but I think some of us who lost faith in MON after Moscow (and had even began to question his methods as early as the summer of 2007 when we made some pretty under-whelming signings) felt reluctant to air criticisms because things were going quite well.
That's the other thing.
At the time, there was also a widely held assumption when people moaned about MON that they wanted him sacked - as if you couldn't criticise a manager without wanting them to get the bullet. Which was, of course, utter nonsense.
So true. A fair few of us questioned him getting rid of Cahill for Knight, but were essentially told he knows best and we are lucky to have him.
I think we could have achieved a lot more, and more importantly invested a lot better than we did under Martin had we gone for a more "modern" coach.
-
i get emails from safc after i bought a scarf for a mackem whose funeral i went to, it went on his coffin as a present from the locals of our pub. however i digress, below is the email i had from mon after yesterdays game.
SUNDERLAND 0 - 1 ASTON VILLA
Dear Mark,
We didn’t deserve to get beaten.
We probably should have won the game but the ball just didn’t drop for us today.
We’re not scoring goals, we’ve had people in and around the penalty area, but it just doesn’t seem to be happening for us.
I could not fault the players’ effort whatsoever. I think it was epitomised by a fantastic performance from Lee Cattermole.
It was as good a performance as I have seen from a player and he didn’t deserve to be on the losing side.
We drove at Villa and tried everything but we were unable to wear them down.
We need to be resilient. It’s been tough going and we’ve found ourselves in the situation where we’re not getting goals.
You wouldn’t think we would have that problem with all of the attacking players we have in the team.
We have to stick in at it and we’ll come back from this.
We have to remain strong and be resilient – we’re all in this together.
All the best,
Martin O'Neill
I had one a few years ago that went something like this:
Dear Mark,
We did deserve to win.
We probably should have won the game by more but the wind just didn’t drop for us today.
We’re scoring goals, we’ve nobody in and around the penalty area, it just seems to be happening for us.
I could not fault the players’ effort whatsoever. I think it was epitomised by a fantastic performance from Brad Freidel.
It was as good a performance as I have seen from a player and he didn’t deserve to be on the losing side.
They drove at us and tried everything but we were able to wear them down.
We need to stay resilient. It’s been tough going and we’ve found ourselves in the situation where we’re getting goals after 10 minutes.
You wouldn’t think we would have that problem with all of the attacking players we have in the team defending.
We have to stick in at it and we’ll get away with this.
All 14 squad players have to remain strong and be resilient – we’re all in this together, except NRC, Luke Young, Gary Cahill and a few others ( I forget their names).
All the best,
Martin O'Neill
-
I can't see how you were proved correct paulie. The proof would have been if we'd have been struggling or knocked out of the cups early.
What actually happened was that we were in contention for fourth place until the penultimate week of the season, when we played Man City off the park and suffered a very unlucky defeat, and were possibly two atrocious refereeing decisions away from winning two cups.
If we'd have got a decent manager in next instead of the clown that followed who alienated a big part of a squad who had proved very effective, the financial crisis that followed could have been managed much better.
Maybe you're saying what he's doing at Sunderland is your proof, but I don't give a shit about that. I hope that he royally fucks up there and they take up one of the relegation spots if we're still down there in a few months time, but I don't think that proves anything about his time at a different club under different circumstances three years ago.
-
I liked him, I still do, although he made it difficult to like him the way he left.
-
I can't see how you were proved correct paulie. The proof would have been if we'd have been struggling or knocked out of the cups early.
What actually happened was that we were in contention for fourth place until the penultimate week of the season, when we played Man City off the park and suffered a very unlucky defeat, and were possibly two atrocious refereeing decisions away from winning two cups.
If we'd have got a decent manager in next instead of the clown that followed who alienated a big part of a squad who had proved very effective, the financial crisis that followed could have been managed much better.
Maybe you're saying what he's doing at Sunderland is your proof, but I don't give a shit about that. I hope that he royally fucks up there and they take up one of the relegation spots if we're still down there in a few months time, but I don't think that proves anything about his time at a different club under different circumstances three years ago.
I think it shows how limited he is as a coach in the modern game though Percy, and his final season was as good as it was ever going to get for Villa under MON.
-
I think we would have gone further under a more modern thinking coaching. O'Neills tactics and methods could only ever get a team around the top 6 and at an extreme expense.
-
I'm probably speaking for myself here but I think some of us who lost faith in MON after Moscow (and had even began to question his methods as early as the summer of 2007 when we made some pretty under-whelming signings) felt reluctant to air criticisms because things were going quite well.
That's the other thing.
At the time, there was also a widely held assumption when people moaned about MON that they wanted him sacked - as if you couldn't criticise a manager without wanting them to get the bullet. Which was, of course, utter nonsense.
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
-
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
Doesn't really explain the vitriol directed at those who did offer criticism.
-
Hmm, I can mainly recollect people being happy with with the good things (exciting counter attacking team full of promise for a couple of years), frustrated with the not-so-great things (slightly dull home games where we lacked the guile to break teams down in a league that increasingly became all too aware of how to nullify our 'plan A') and disgusted with the disgraceful thing (leaving us in the shit the way he did).
Football is a transient thing and it's VERY rare a manager is the right man for a club for longer than a handful of years a la Ferguson at Man Utd or Wenger at Arsenal. O'Neill was a good Villa manager who left under a black cloud. Nobody need apologise for supporting him while he was at the club.
Good post.
Someone has said you can criticise a manager without wanting him gone, but by the same token you can also back him without agreeing with everything he does.
As I card carrying 'happy clapper' from those days, what got me was posters picking
holes in what he was doing while conveniently ignoring the results as we were pushing for 4th. There was very little balanced argument back then as both sides of the debate failed to see the other as anything other than one extreme or the other.
-
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
Doesn't really explain the vitriol directed at those who did offer criticism.
As I said, I'd say that it was met in kind by those very same people.
A quick browse through the Gnasher's posting history and his litany of witty nicknames will attest to that.
-
Anyway, while we're all showing off and dredging up the past to go on about how clever we all were/are, I'd like to congratulate everybody who said he'd improve us. They were proved right for four whole seasons in a row.
-
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
Doesn't really explain the vitriol directed at those who did offer criticism.
Or the equal amount oc vitriol directed at those who would highlight the good things.
-
Anyway, while we're all showing off and dredging up the past to go on about how clever we all were/are, I'd like to congratulate everybody who said he'd improve us. They were proved right for four whole seasons in a row.
Yup, we were contenders for every one of the years he was here.
I'd like to think PL will get us back to that.
-
No John, those who attacked the positive posters were much more vitriolic and fond of an insulting nick-name. I was always moaning about it without responding in kind (much).
-
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
Doesn't really explain the vitriol directed at those who did offer criticism.
Or the equal amount oc vitriol directed at those who would highlight the good things.
I think you're both kidding yourselves there. I don't think there was a single poster who never once offered some form of praise or gratitude towards O'Neill. But I can think of at least two who never once aimed a single word of criticism at him and never missed an opportunity to put the boot into those who did.
I think that's why the likes of paulie, Risso and myself, among others, find the current condemnation of O'Neill somewhat amusing, particularly as it's for the very same reasons we were highlighting two or three years ago. Those aren't faults he has developed since he left us.
-
Yup, all you who said MON had taken us as far as he could were bang on the money.
Did we ever find Mourhinos phone number?
-
I don't see a wholesale condemnation here, but rather a more balanced evaluation two years after he's left. That's probably aided by those one or two posters from each end of the spectrum not being involved (yet!).
And there were those who never had a good word to say about him. Or at least kept it to themselves if they did and just commented in the negative.
-
I can't see how you were proved correct paulie. The proof would have been if we'd have been struggling or knocked out of the cups early.
What actually happened was that we were in contention for fourth place until the penultimate week of the season, when we played Man City off the park and suffered a very unlucky defeat, and were possibly two atrocious refereeing decisions away from winning two cups.
If we'd have got a decent manager in next instead of the clown that followed who alienated a big part of a squad who had proved very effective, the financial crisis that followed could have been managed much better.
Maybe you're saying what he's doing at Sunderland is your proof, but I don't give a shit about that. I hope that he royally fucks up there and they take up one of the relegation spots if we're still down there in a few months time, but I don't think that proves anything about his time at a different club under different circumstances three years ago.
No, I was making no reference whatsoever to what he does at Sunderland, I was talking entirely about what he did here.
The vindication i refer to is that he never did get us any further than sixth, the players he signed who we said would be shit, were shit, without exception, and we were indeed lumbered paying players he'd given big contracts to, who delivered nothing.
I understand there are fond memories to be had of his time here, I have some myself, but my view looking back is that, if anything, those of us who got labelled doom mongers were in fact being too understanding with him - what kind of callous shit bag walks out in the circumstances he did? Thats my abiding memory of him.
Interesting, though, you could bring Sunderland into it and say that his "tactic" has been well and truly found out now, and we're seeing the result of that.
Good point about the bozos who followed him, but to be honest, I struggle to see what kind of managerial genius could have squeezed some value out of the likes of Habib Beye and Emile Heskey approaching 35 and pulling in over 100k a week between them.
-
Hilts man, relax, we're all friends again aren't we?
It's only the internet mate - nobody is actually going to kick anybody unless you introduce yourself when buying a fanzine.
*wink*
-
Anyway, while we're all showing off and dredging up the past to go on about how clever we all were/are, I'd like to congratulate everybody who said he'd improve us. They were proved right for four whole seasons in a row.
You don't really need to be Nostradamus to work out that that level of spending was going to improve a side who'd just flirted with relegation.
And as for his long term improvement of us ... well, that was so solid that he himself fucked off as soon as he worked out he'd been rumbled.
-
I'm probably speaking for myself here but I think some of us who lost faith in MON after Moscow (and had even began to question his methods as early as the summer of 2007 when we made some pretty under-whelming signings) felt reluctant to air criticisms because things were going quite well.
That's the other thing.
At the time, there was also a widely held assumption when people moaned about MON that they wanted him sacked - as if you couldn't criticise a manager without wanting them to get the bullet. Which was, of course, utter nonsense.
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
I agree, which is why I didn't suggest anything to the contrary.
-
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
Doesn't really explain the vitriol directed at those who did offer criticism.
As I said, I'd say that it was met in kind by those very same people.
A quick browse through the Gnasher's posting history and his litany of witty nicknames will attest to that.
it's not really saying much to point at the single most controversial, negative poster on the board, though, is it?
It's like saying "there was widespread ridiculous optimism, just look at Seattle Villain's posting history for evidence of that"
-
And there were those who never had a good word to say about him. Or at least kept it to themselves if they did and just commented in the negative.
Who, though? As in never had a good word to say about him?
I think even those who got labelled miserablists most frequently (and I am probably one of them) had plenty good to say about him, too.
I can see several good things he did. I don't even blame him for Moscow, which puts me in a minority.
-
I think that's why the likes of paulie, Risso and myself, among others, find the current condemnation of O'Neill somewhat amusing, particularly as it's for the very same reasons we were highlighting two or three years ago. Those aren't faults he has developed since he left us.
It's like the way half the population of Scotland was at Celtic's UEFA cup final, or at the Sex Pistols 100 Club gig. Or, moving back to the Villa, how many were at that 8k attendance Southampton game.
Ultimately, there was name calling in both camps, and there were an awful lot of people who saw it as either black or white (everything was ace, or everything was shit, nothing in between), which is a ridiculous way to see things, but it's just the number of people now talking about his predictable, old fashioned style of football now, compared to the shit some of us got for pointing this out in the past that gets on my tits a tiny bit.
-
But on the flip side, it was also possible to think that he was generally doing a good job without thinking that he was a messiah and without any fault. Which was no less common an accusation thrown around at the time.
Doesn't really explain the vitriol directed at those who did offer criticism.
As I said, I'd say that it was met in kind by those very same people.
A quick browse through the Gnasher's posting history and his litany of witty nicknames will attest to that.
it's not really saying much to point at the single most controversial, negative poster on the board, though, is it?
It's not, but it's one example. And I don't think it would too hard to find plenty of other people who have been put their anti-MON feelings in less than friendly terms.
Which of course is absolutely fine, but it seems a bit at odds with Hilts' insinuation that the 'vitriol' was a one-way thing.
I remember it as lot of people arguing their point as forcefully as each other. Just as it should be.
-
I was boringly middle of the road about MON when he was here from what I can remember. I praised him for some stuff and gave him pelters for others. I can't stand the little shit these days mind.
-
I remember it as some people being glad when we lost and they couldn't wait to get on here and tell us how they told us so.
-
I remember it as some people being glad when we lost and they couldn't wait to get on here and tell us how they told us so.
A bit like under GH, AM and this season then?
-
Which of course is absolutely fine, but it seems a bit at odds with Hilts' insinuation that the 'vitriol' was a one-way thing.
I didn't make any insinuation. All I said is that it doesn't explain the vitriol that came the way of O'Neill's critics. The fact that those criticisms are now being used across the board, including by people who previously rejected them out of hand, makes such vitriol even more inexplicable.
-
I'm probably speaking for myself here but I think some of us who lost faith in MON after Moscow (and had even began to question his methods as early as the summer of 2007 when we made some pretty under-whelming signings) felt reluctant to air criticisms because things were going quite well.
That's the other thing.
At the time, there was also a widely held assumption when people moaned about MON that they wanted him sacked - as if you couldn't criticise a manager without wanting them to get the bullet. Which was, of course, utter nonsense.
I wanted him sacked and eventually got my way.
-
Which of course is absolutely fine, but it seems a bit at odds with Hilts' insinuation that the 'vitriol' was a one-way thing.
I didn't make any insinuation. All I said is that it doesn't explain the vitriol that came the way of O'Neill's critics.
Ok, well if there was no insinuation then the obvious answer is 'it was in response to the vitriol that came the way of O'Neill's supporters'.
-
No John, those who attacked the positive posters were much more vitriolic and fond of an insulting nick-name. I was always moaning about it without responding in kind (much).
Do you include those who called the twat 'Poison Dwarf'?
-
I remember it as some people being glad when we lost and they couldn't wait to get on here and tell us how they told us so.
I think that's harsh. It is never like that but feels like it when you are hurting about a loss etc.
Here in Ireland often hear it thrown at critics of the government that 'oh, aren't you glad there's bad news on the economy so you can say "told you so", you will be delighted if the country goes under so you can say "I was right"'.
It's never like that, we are all in it together etc!
-
Ok, well if there was no insinuation then the obvious answer is 'it was in response to the vitriol that came the way of O'Neill's supporters'.
That's an obviously incorrect answer.
-
I was boringly middle of the road about MON when he was here from what I can remember. I praised him for some stuff and gave him pelters for others. I can't stand the little shit these days mind.
More or less my stance too.
-
First they came for the people who were mildly critical of Martin O'Neill...
-
At first I liked MO'N but after a while I grew tired of him buying older, overrated and overpaid players, instead of young up and coming players who were keen to impress (see Lowton, Westwood, Benteke etc).
I think it ended for him and the fans after the Moscow debacle. I felt for those who paid good hard earned money to go over there to see the reserves play, because we had a game coming up against Stoke!!!!!!
-
I might have a trawl through some of my H+V articles later this week to see at what point I started to raise concerns about him. Just out of interest re the timescales really.
-
I was delighted the day mon arrived and thrilled for the future ,and delighted the day he left , having seen things turn sour in the final couple of years even though results in his last season weren't too bad.
The Moscow mistake was the beginning of the end and I never forgave him for that , compounded by his errors poor team selection, lack of plan b, constant poor substitutions, heskey, and the general poor quality of football- he had his great days but mon had to go and should have gone in may of his last season.
There were many discussions and as dave says both sides fought their corner, I along with the nasher dc5 and a few others were well outnumbered by the monettes at the time but gradually more and more realised he was not the answer.
Now I think most agree that he wasn't the success we hoped he would be , a decent enough time in our history but given the finances available to him it should have been so so much better.
-
MON is one dimensional. I am surprised he's done so 'well' in his career.
-
I never actually thought, even in his best time at Villa, that he was this managerial mastermind that some of the UK press make him out to be. His teams have one way of playing, he has one way of making substitutions, and no way of breaking down a stubborn opposition. He has finally been found out, and it gave me almost as much pleasure seeing the ****** lose on Saturday as it did seeing us win. He's a spoilt little brat, who fucks off whenever he can't get his own way. He'll get sacked soon enough, and I look forward to it, although, he'll probably take them to court for doing it.
-
i get emails from safc after i bought a scarf for a mackem whose funeral i went to, it went on his coffin as a present from the locals of our pub. however i digress, below is the email i had from mon after yesterdays game.
SUNDERLAND 0 - 1 ASTON VILLA
Dear Mark,
We didn’t deserve to get beaten.
We probably should have won the game but the ball just didn’t drop for us today.
We’re not scoring goals, we’ve had people in and around the penalty area, but it just doesn’t seem to be happening for us.
I could not fault the players’ effort whatsoever. I think it was epitomised by a fantastic performance from Lee Cattermole.
It was as good a performance as I have seen from a player and he didn’t deserve to be on the losing side.
We drove at Villa and tried everything but we were unable to wear them down.
We need to be resilient. It’s been tough going and we’ve found ourselves in the situation where we’re not getting goals.
You wouldn’t think we would have that problem with all of the attacking players we have in the team.
We have to stick in at it and we’ll come back from this.
We have to remain strong and be resilient – we’re all in this together.
All the best,
Martin O'Neill
I had one a few years ago that went something like this:
Dear Mark,
We did deserve to win.
We probably should have won the game by more but the wind just didn’t drop for us today.
We’re scoring goals, we’ve nobody in and around the penalty area, it just seems to be happening for us.
I could not fault the players’ effort whatsoever. I think it was epitomised by a fantastic performance from Brad Freidel.
It was as good a performance as I have seen from a player and he didn’t deserve to be on the losing side.
They drove at us and tried everything but we were able to wear them down.
We need to stay resilient. It’s been tough going and we’ve found ourselves in the situation where we’re getting goals after 10 minutes.
You wouldn’t think we would have that problem with all of the attacking players we have in the team defending.
We have to stick in at it and we’ll get away with this.
All 14 squad players have to remain strong and be resilient – we’re all in this together, except NRC, Luke Young, Gary Cahill and a few others ( I forget their names).
All the best,
Martin O'Neill
Love it.
-
I was delighted the day mon arrived and thrilled for the future ,and delighted the day he left , having seen things turn sour in the final couple of years even though results in his last season weren't too bad.
The Moscow mistake was the beginning of the end and I never forgave him for that , compounded by his errors poor team selection, lack of plan b, constant poor substitutions, heskey, and the general poor quality of football- he had his great days but mon had to go and should have gone in may of his last season.
There were many discussions and as dave says both sides fought their corner, I along with the nasher dc5 and a few others were well outnumbered by the monettes at the time but gradually more and more realised he was not the answer.
Now I think most agree that he wasn't the success we hoped he would be , a decent enough time in our history but given the finances available to him it should have been so so much better.
I was wondering when someone would roll that one out!
Moscow wasn't a mistake - it was a decision. A decision taken in light of us finding ourselves in a much better league position than we thought combined with the fear for our players playing of an artificial pitch in freezing conditions. He may have mistakingkly mis-judged the fan reaction, that I grant you, but he did what he felt was best for the team/club.
Yes, he wasn't the success we hoped he'd be, but then we were all hoping for CL fottball and trophies, so by an actual lack of quantifiable 'success' then we were all disappointed, probably including MON himself.
-
Moscow wasn't a mistake - it was a decision. A decision taken in light of us finding ourselves in a much better league position than we thought combined with the fear for our players playing of an artificial pitch in freezing conditions. He may have mistakingkly mis-judged the fan reaction, that I grant you, but he did what he felt was best for the team/club.
We are a football club borne out of a desire to compete. Compete in every game that we play when claret and blue shirts are worn. Doing what he did in Moscow can never be described as best decision for the club.
-
Moscow wasn't a mistake - it was a decision. A decision taken in light of us finding ourselves in a much better league position than we thought combined with the fear for our players playing of an artificial pitch in freezing conditions. He may have mistakingkly mis-judged the fan reaction, that I grant you, but he did what he felt was best for the team/club.
We are a football club borne out of a desire to compete. Compete in every game that we play when claret and blue shirts are worn. Doing what he did in Moscow can never be described as best decision for the club.
Not getting 4th has shown it to be wrong. However, he didn't know that at the time. What would the reaction have been if we had gotten a bad injury to Gabby or Ash and gone on to lose the tie anyway?
-
But John he put huge pressure on the first team by leaving them at home as well as not competing in game of football.
-
We should have ignored Moscow and concentrated on seizing the crucial oilfields in the Caucasus.
Once we had possession of Maikop and Grozny, Stalin would have sued for peace and we could probably have forced him to cede the Ukraine.
-
Moscow wasn't a mistake - it was a decision. A decision taken in light of us finding ourselves in a much better league position than we thought combined with the fear for our players playing of an artificial pitch in freezing conditions. He may have mistakingkly mis-judged the fan reaction, that I grant you, but he did what he felt was best for the team/club.
We are a football club borne out of a desire to compete. Compete in every game that we play when claret and blue shirts are worn. Doing what he did in Moscow can never be described as best decision for the club.
Totally agree aftab, Moscow was a mistake concrete John, a manager of aston villa should not put out such a weak side in a European competition at such a crucial stage- think of the poor fans who paid out to travel to see basically a reserve side- it was a dreadful decision and in no way can he be excused blame.
If he wasn't going to take the competition seriously why the hell put out a strong team in all the other rounds to them throw it away in the knockout stage .
From that moment our season imploded and it was a disaster.
-
But we could have sent the first team, had Ash pick up an injury that ruled him out for 6 months, still not won and seen the season go to pot anyway. It's almost like a 'sliding doors scenario' where everyone is presuming that things would have been better had we gone to other way.
This one's been done to death so I'll leave it there.
-
But we could have sent the first team, had Ash pick up an injury that ruled him out for 6 months, still not won and seen the season go to pot anyway. It's almost like a 'sliding doors scenario' where everyone is presuming that things would have been better had we gone to other way.
This one's been done to death so I'll leave it there.
Yes and we could have sent our 1st team, won and continued the momentum and gone on to have a great season- it's no use saying what if ash had picked up an injury ruling him out 6 months, he could have got injured in training or in any match - that's no excuse .
O Neill took that gamble and it went disasterously wrong from there, the feel good factor went and he lost a lot of fans belief in him .
-
At first I liked MO'N but after a while I grew tired of him buying older, overrated and overpaid players, instead of young up and coming players who were keen to impress (see Lowton, Westwood, Benteke etc).
I think it ended for him and the fans after the Moscow debacle. I felt for those who paid good hard earned money to go over there to see the reserves play, because we had a game coming up against Stoke!!!!!!
If memory serves, we only managed to win 2 of our remaining 12 games that season.
-
At first I liked MO'N but after a while I grew tired of him buying older, overrated and overpaid players, instead of young up and coming players who were keen to impress (see Lowton, Westwood, Benteke etc).
I think it ended for him and the fans after the Moscow debacle. I felt for those who paid good hard earned money to go over there to see the reserves play, because we had a game coming up against Stoke!!!!!!
If memory serves, we only managed to win 2 of our remaining 12 games that season.
I trusted that MON knew what he was doing. 2-0 up at home to Stoke I was happy. Later that day I was devestated.
I was just as happy when he went as when he arrived. Almost perfect timing for both
-
I wasn't that bothered when he went. I thought a competent replacement would do well. In my mind he was inheriting a good first team and some squad players who would be straining at the leash to prove their worth at last. He would address all the issues that we had been debating seemingly forever - specialised full-backs, rotation, passing football etc, we had the players didn't we?
Instead we got Houllier, who couldn't get the best out of Gabby and Ireland, played Young out of position, already had his mind made up about Carew, and alienated Dunne and Collins. Friedel and Petrov, being the brilliant pros they are, carried on as normal, and he got some decent performances out of Heskey.
A good manager would have massaged the egos of all the wankers and players he didn't rate until such time as they were comfortable in the table or he could actually do something about shipping them out and replacing them.
Then we followed that clown with T-fucking-S-fucking-M. Unbelievable.
-
I wasn't that bothered when he went. I thought a competent replacement would do well. In my mind he was inheriting a good first team and some squad players who would be straining at the leash to prove their worth at last. He would address all the issues that we had been debating seemingly forever - specialised full-backs, rotation, passing football etc, we had the players didn't we?
Instead we got Houllier, who couldn't get the best out of Gabby and Ireland, played Young out of position, already had his mind made up about Carew, and alienated Dunne and Collins. Friedel and Petrov, being the brilliant pros they are, carried on as normal, and he got some decent performances out of Heskey.
A good manager would have massaged the egos of all the wankers and players he didn't rate until such time as they were comfortable in the table or he could actually do something about shipping them out and replacing them.
Then we followed that clown with T-fucking-S-fucking-M. Unbelievable.
I agree Percy, when mon left I thought we would kick on under a better manager and attract a decent manager maybe from Europe, I certainly hoped for a much better appointment than houllier and the 2 years that followed were a huge shock to the system under both houllier and the ginger one.
-
We should have ignored Moscow and concentrated on seizing the crucial oilfields in the Caucasus.
Once we had possession of Maikop and Grozny, Stalin would have sued for peace and we could probably have forced him to cede the Ukraine.
yeah, but we'd have only fecked it up in the semis and had to hand it all back.
-
For me the whole of the last two-and-a-bit seasons has just been an extension of walloping west ham at home and then losing 6-0 at Newcastle. That horrible sensation of not really knowing what was coming next, but suspecting that it would probably be something bad.
-
http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/
Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.
I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.
But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.
That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans. I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?
-
Same old tiresome rubbish from Fletch and hawkeye there. Three years later, aren't you bored of pretending that anyone who thought he was a good manager called him the messiah?
They didn't say that though. There were many, many people who thought the son shone out of his arse, and those not joining in with the adulation and who pointed out the stupidity of the majority of his signings plus his dull football suffered dog's abuse.
Quite right, Risso.
I woud rather we hadnt set off down this road, but i have to say, i recall a few of us pointing out under MON that the football we played at home was one dimensional and predictable, that MON would not move us on, that his transfer policy was myopic, halfarsed and lazy, that he was spunking money on players we'd laugh at if rivals bought them, that he had no idea of tactics beyond getting the ball out to wingers and hoping for the best.
A few of us also pointed out that the ticking time bomb wasn't so much the fees but the wage bill.
It's all very well MON fans moaning they never thought he was the messiah, and that they didn't like being called happy clappers but I recall those of us who pointed out the above getting all sorts of abuse, being called misery arsed doom merchants, that we were nuts to be pointing these things out.
I recall "I'll take the opinion of a successful football manager over a load of Internet geeks, thank you very much" getting trotted out too.
Funny how things turn out, what with us being proved correct on all points.
Spot on, I dont suppose we can expect those that were worshiping at the Alter of the Beloved Martin, to hold thier hands up any time soon then.
-
http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/
Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.
I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.
But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.
That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans. I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?
Personally I think MoN's time with us produced more positives than negatives and given time I think he'll get it right but you may have a decent point regarding his mate Robertson being a factor.
-
http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/
Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.
I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.
But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.
That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans. I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?
Should have added: great parodies of the O'Neill post-match e-mail
-
Hello Kingshirker.
The thing about MON is that he needs to spend far greater-than-average money in order to achieve slightly better-than-average results. This is mostly because he has to be the least imaginative manager in the transfer market out there (seriously, I rate McLeish above him - McLeish signs some good players, just has no idea what to do with them). He will willingly pay the absurd premiums for flavour-of-the-month British or British-based names, never seeming to care about the amount of money he's wasting. He spent £50m across two summers building two different defences for us, sprees which included £10m on Curtis Davies, £8m on Cuellar and £6-7m on Stephen Warnock. That's just one example.
Also, he has this stubborn streak which seems too have become an utter unwillingness to learn or deviate at all from anything he's ever done. His football - always functional and limited - now just looks absurdly anachronistic. If he can't spend £100m on it, his style will yield little besides sterility. But he will never change, he will never attempt to modernise his style, he will never value technique as much as industry or intelligence as much as pace and power. He'll certainly not buy from Abroad, as Abroad is the scary place where these things are valued. He is, or at least has been, an inspirational man-manager, but a lot of that comes from the fact that he never rotates - meaning half the squad end up hating him for never giving them a chance, no matter how out-of-form his favourite in the first XI is - and that his training regime is minimal at best - there was a recent revelation that our players would sometimes not be asked to train until Thursdays during the week. So, if you think this is bad, wait for the customary March burnout, where his overplayed, undertrained favourites will be exhausted beyond the reach of man-management rescues. And don't expect him to change the team after that either.
I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was. I wasn't quite as blind as some - I could see the limited football, the unimaginative signings - but for some reason convinced myself that he was going to change. Some on here saw through the mask though, and more power to them, and your fans booing, for all that I don't get onside with that sort of thing, shows that a good number of them have seen the Emperor's nudity early on, and for your sake I hope that drives him out earlier than he would usually flounce off.
-
hawkeye 'wrote': I don't suppose we can expect those who were worshiping(sic) at the Alter(sic) of the Beloved Martin to hold thier(sic) hands up any time soon then.
I doubt it, as they don't exist. People who thought he was a good manager have commented though.
PS: sorted your punctuation for you, didn't have time to do the spelling. What do they teach them at school these days?
-
First they came for the people who were mildly critical of Martin O'Neill...
Incorrect. First they came for people who didn't stand and cheer for MON.
It was a little later that they came for people who were mildy critical.
I had a knock on the door about a season in - but then again I was openly critical from very early on.
-
For me the whole of the last two-and-a-bit seasons has just been an extension of walloping west ham at home and then losing 6-0 at Newcastle. That horrible sensation of not really knowing what was coming next, but suspecting that it would probably be something bad.
Excellent description and hanging on desperately for a result like that Everton game under Kevin Mac.
-
http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/
Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?
Didn't villa players refer to Robertson and Walford as 'bibs and cones'? Not sure how great Robertson was but perhaps he helped bring out the best in MON so, it could be a factor.
-
My goodness, there's a few on here who are very touchy that somebody disagreed with them at some point. Perhaps a discussion board is not really the ideal place for them to offer opinions?
-
http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/sixers-soapboxaston-villa-good-value-for-the-win/
Sunderland fan here, from the site an earlier message mentioned.
I freely admit things are looking a little desperate for us just now with two away games coming up, Everton and Fulham, from which I'd be surprised to see a solitary point.
But I have not lost faith in MoN and still feel a lot of you are being harsh. If what you had during his time at Villa Park was failure or underachievement, I'd like a bit of it to come our way, too. It's just too easy to claim he inherited a good squad and left you with overpaid incompetents. He must have done something right between those two points.
That said, a few more defeats and draws and I'll find myself in a minority of Sunderland fans. I had a bad feeling before Saturday but, given the way you'd started the season, was astonished at how comfortably you played at the back, how much better you moved around the pitch and how little we truly threatened. Is MON's failure to lure John Robertson from Derby a major factor?
MON isn't horrible manager, just very limited one. He burned a lot of money on overpaid and very average players. You should really expect very average "proven" UK signings, I bet he's already looking at bringing McGeady from Russia.
As I watched our game against Sunderland on saturday, I saw a lot of same problems in your game as we had in ours when he was Villa's manager but he managed to scrape through then because Premier league was somewhat less competitive back then, and game has changed a bit in the last 3-4 years.
I got so frustated with his transfers and tactics when he was still our manager that I was actually glad that he left (but not the way he did leave).
And I agree with everything Montbert said, if I were you I would really brace for very bad 2-3 months in the spring given that we always had that with him, I fear Sunderland is really a candidate going down unless he leaves or gets fired in january latest, and as Montbert, I do feel for you lot.
-
Hello Kingshirker.
I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was.
That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.
As for John Robertson, I don't think you're missing anything, unless you need somebody to stand silent on the touchline observing the training, in which case, I'm your man, for the right price, obviously. The sooner you come to realise MON is a very limited manager, the better. Sunderland deserve better.
From the man himself:
'With regards to us here at Villa, we have a way. Steve Walford will do most of the day-to-day training. I would say that I watch more than I actually talk out there. Then, I will discuss my thoughts with Martin. And he has the final say because that's his right and that's his job.
-
Hello Kingshirker.
I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was.
That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.
As for John Robertson, I don't think you're missing anything, unless you need somebody to stand silent on the touchline observing the training, in which case, I'm your man, for the right price, obviously. The sooner you come to realise MON is a very limited manager, the better. Sunderland deserve better.
The players were all still paid the same when O'Neill left though, yet never since has there been the same togetherness shown. It can't just have been about money. the 'Us against them' style mentality that Monty is getting at was down to O'Neill, and that, at least with regards to some of the results we achieved, can be a good thing.
-
Hello Kingshirker.
I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was.
That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.
As for John Robertson, I don't think you're missing anything, unless you need somebody to stand silent on the touchline observing the training, in which case, I'm your man, for the right price, obviously. The sooner you come to realise MON is a very limited manager, the better. Sunderland deserve better.
The players were all still paid the same when O'Neill left though, yet never since has there been the same togetherness shown. It can't just have been about money. the 'Us against them' style mentality that Monty is getting at was down to O'Neill, and that, at least with regards to some of the results we achieved, can be a good thing.
Maybe that togetherness stopped when Houllier started to consider players outside the same old 14. It was like signing 10 new players.
-
I agree with both comments above. The way MON fostered an admirable togetherness was at the expense of unity outside of the first 11-15 players. What with the lack of training commitments and the guaranteed first team places, it's no wonder the loyalty shown to him by certain players.
-
It's Ok for criticise him for his failings, but let's not try and re-write history and pretend his Villa side was anything other than a highly motivated outfit who would run through walls for the cause.
-
Hello Kingshirker.
The thing about MON is that he needs to spend far greater-than-average money in order to achieve slightly better-than-average results. This is mostly because he has to be the least imaginative manager in the transfer market out there (seriously, I rate McLeish above him - McLeish signs some good players, just has no idea what to do with them). He will willingly pay the absurd premiums for flavour-of-the-month British or British-based names, never seeming to care about the amount of money he's wasting. He spent £50m across two summers building two different defences for us, sprees which included £10m on Curtis Davies, £8m on Cuellar and £6-7m on Stephen Warnock. That's just one example.
Also, he has this stubborn streak which seems too have become an utter unwillingness to learn or deviate at all from anything he's ever done. His football - always functional and limited - now just looks absurdly anachronistic. If he can't spend £100m on it, his style will yield little besides sterility. But he will never change, he will never attempt to modernise his style, he will never value technique as much as industry or intelligence as much as pace and power. He'll certainly not buy from Abroad, as Abroad is the scary place where these things are valued. He is, or at least has been, an inspirational man-manager, but a lot of that comes from the fact that he never rotates - meaning half the squad end up hating him for never giving them a chance, no matter how out-of-form his favourite in the first XI is - and that his training regime is minimal at best - there was a recent revelation that our players would sometimes not be asked to train until Thursdays during the week. So, if you think this is bad, wait for the customary March burnout, where his overplayed, undertrained favourites will be exhausted beyond the reach of man-management rescues. And don't expect him to change the team after that either.
I feel for you, I really do, because I was one of the saps on here who didn't see it at the time. MON is very good at creating a kind of club bubble - one of his better traits because, as with Mourinho and Ferguson, it breeds loyalty and togetherness - and I couldn't see the stubbornness for what it was. I wasn't quite as blind as some - I could see the limited football, the unimaginative signings - but for some reason convinced myself that he was going to change. Some on here saw through the mask though, and more power to them, and your fans booing, for all that I don't get onside with that sort of thing, shows that a good number of them have seen the Emperor's nudity early on, and for your sake I hope that drives him out earlier than he would usually flounce off.
As good a synopsis of his time with us as i have seen.
It is no coincindence that every fan of the club he was at prior to being at your own, those fans can tell you almost verbatim what he will do and how he will do it. It is also no coincidence that Celtic, Leicester and ourselves are left with some pretty heavy financial wounds once he realises his time is up. The title of this thread sums it up "The Myth of MON" he has created something very big out of not a lot of material
I am sure he is destined to end up at Forest - be warned Forest fans, be Warned
-
It's Ok for criticise him for his failings, but let's not try and re-write history and pretend his Villa side was anything other than a highly motivated outfit who would run through walls for the cause.
In fairness to him he was a good motivator of his team, they tended to give everything for him but those outside the first 11 rarely had much chance as be seemed to be reluctant to change .
-
It's Ok for criticise him for his failings, but let's not try and re-write history and pretend his Villa side was anything other than a highly motivated outfit who would run through walls for the cause.
Oh, absolutely. You couldn't fault his teams for effort. They never stopped running, trying to get the ball back. ;)
-
As good a synopsis of his time with us as i have seen.
It is no coincindence that every fan of the club he was at prior to being at your own, those fans can tell you almost verbatim what he will do and how he will do it. It is also no coincidence that Celtic, Leicester and ourselves are left with some pretty heavy financial wounds once he realises his time is up. The title of this thread sums it up "The Myth of MON" he has created something very big out of not a lot of material
I am sure he is destined to end up at Forest - be warned Forest fans, be Warned
Unfortunately I can see him getting welcomed to Nottingham Forest with "The Apprentice of Clough is here!", and they might fall, hard.
He was/is decent manager but the times have left him behind, and he seems to be way too stubborn to change his ways, and I can see him retiring from managing and going to work for BBC as pundit, unless he goes to Nottingham Forest for the last job.
-
One thing I would say is that, if you're willing to accept his foibles - and Monty's post above is about as good an explanation of them as you're likely to get - you'll probably like having him as your manager.
I do wonder, though, if he's still as motivated as he used to be, and whether he's starting to realise he can't escape his limitations - for all that he has strengths and weaknesses, one thing I think is very true is that he's a stubborn fecker, and he's not going to change for anyone.
If you can accept all that, then you'll enjoy having him as your manager.
The problem I think Sunderland have now is that they probably have the same ultimate aim that we do - to qualify for Europe. Thing is, although it was not really "easy" when he was with us, I think it is much, much harder now.
His comments at the weekend about how we qualified for Europe etc etc are interesting. Take a look at what happened the last two seasons we qualified, though, and the result and performances say a lot more than the fact we qualified.
-
That loyalty was not built, it was bought. If you stick any player on stupid wages he'll always say good things about the manager. That was certainly the case during his time at Villa.
The loyalty point is a good one, there were without doubt players in our squad who were highly motivated by MON and thoroughly respected him for that.
As someone else said, though, the flip side was that there seemed a "love you or loathe you" approach, if the player was in his "loved" camp (as, say Cuellar was) then they'd play pretty much all the time.
if they weren't loved (and lots of these were players he signed himself) then they'd too often get frozen out, which all contributed to the side dying on their arses in March.
-
We should have ignored Moscow and concentrated on seizing the crucial oilfields in the Caucasus.
Once we had possession of Maikop and Grozny, Stalin would have sued for peace and we could probably have forced him to cede the Ukraine.
*coffee through nostrils*
very good
-
One memorable feature of the arguments was where his detractors said that his Scottish silverware was meaningless shite (true) whilst his supporters regularly made mention of his cup wins in chilly Jocko land.
-
One memorable feature of the arguments was where his detractors said that his Scottish silverware was meaningless shite (true)
I remember how we used to say "Ha, yeah, Scottish football is so shite, even McLeish won loads of silverware up there"
Little did we know what would happen in the future ...
-
Nobody mentioned it more than you Fletch. Speaking for myself, I don't think his success with Celtic meant he was anything special. I think getting them to the UEFA Cup final was pretty impressive though.
-
Nobody mentioned it more than you Fletch. Speaking for myself, I don't think his success with Celtic meant he was anything special. I think getting them to the UEFA Cup final was pretty impressive though.
I'll give you the UEFA.
But Scottish trophies are a load of cack, if Strachan and McCatpiss can win them, anybody can.
Not hard when it's a 2 horse race.
-
I think one thing he has done until recently is pick his jobs very carefully.
At Leicester he had loads of chances to leave, and turned them down until the Celtic job came up. When he came to us, he knew we had a benevolent billionaire waiting, that we had the spine of a decent side, and that he couldn't fail to improve us.
When he left us, he did so in a way which led to us being treated as if we'd sacked him. When we then declined, that strengthened his position, as it turned into "look what happened when they binned MON".
However, I do think, in the year he was out of the game, more people have cottoned on to the longer term effects of his time here, and his stock has fallen.
No massive disrespect to Sunderland, who are a decent historic club, but really, I bet he didn't for a moment consider he'd be making what could - at the very best - be described a sideways move.
-
My abiding memory of that game is the TV pictures of thousands of pissed Glaswegians dossing down in the streets of Seville.
-
I hope nobody now mentions what happened when Rangers got to the UEFA Cup final and how their fans were in Manchester, thus setting off the Auld Firm nonsense which always ends up in thread lockage.
-
Oh, ok. Better stop beating this huge orange drum I guess.
-
Yes, apart from there being no mindless violence and wanton vandalism, it was just like when that club who they just as bad as, Rangers, played in Manchester.
EDIT: sorry paulie, saw your post too late.
It's those who promote the ridiculous notion that 'they're both as bad as each other' who get the threads locked.
Surely no-one will be daft enough to suggest that after the two clubs' respective UEFA Cup finals have been mentioned, although you never know, as most of them seem to have even forgotten the Villa Park friendly in '76 as well.
-
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
-
No massive disrespect to Sunderland, who are a decent historic club, but really, I bet he didn't for a moment consider he'd be making what could - at the very best - be described a sideways move.
It was his dream move - to manage his boyhood supporting club - oh and the fact they have a billionaire owner with lots of money to spend. I do wonder however how long Ellis Short's patience will last. The man has thrown a lot of money at the club already and I'd imagine he's expecting to see some return. I'd imagine having to lower ticket prices to £10 against us wasn't part of the plan.
-
Sunderland also give away thousands of tickets to local schools most matches, too, I have heard.
-
Interesting match report from Mat K on Saturday's game.
I imagine he'll be off MON's christmas card list now.
http://www.birminghammail.net/sport/football/match-reports/sunderland-0-aston-villa-1-287042
-
Excellent report, I read it in the shop this morning. Insight and/or bottle all too rare from a journalist these days.
-
Interesting match report from Mat K on Saturday's game.
I imagine he'll be off MON's christmas card list now.
http://www.birminghammail.net/sport/football/match-reports/sunderland-0-aston-villa-1-287042
I don't think he was on it!
-
Sunderland also give away thousands of tickets to local schools most matches, too, I have heard.
So do Aston Villa.
-
Sunderland also give away thousands of tickets to local schools most matches, too, I have heard.
So do Aston Villa.
Thousands, though, every home game?
-
Hundreds. Tickets for Schools initiative.
-
Tell you what, take a look at the argument here:
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740612
and think back to the stuff being discussed on this thread, how we were here with the whole happy clapper / doom merchant thing. Uncanny the degree to which their forum mirrors this one!
-
Matts report is crashing my internet at work. Can someone post the details of the article. Ta.
-
Matts report is crashing my internet at work. Can someone post the details of the article. Ta.
“MARTIN, Martin, what’s the score?” chanted the away fans mischievously.
Well, unless someone has been “re-writing history” again, it was Sunderland 0 Villa 1.
Hopefully this result was closure for the claret and blues because they really do need to move on and move up – they are embarking on a new chapter under Paul Lambert now.
Villa’s current boss has so much respect for his former Celtic chief that he still calls him ‘the gaffer’ and he has a lot to live up to if he is to one day emulate his managerial mentor’s achievements at Villa Park.
But, forget the tracksuits, touchline demeanour and autocratic approach, of all the things O’Neill has passed down to Lambert, the biggest burden is trying to restore this club to the level it was at just over two years ago.
O’Neill, who is struggling to sustain his amazing early impact at shot-shy Sunderland, used his programme notes to labour the point that he doesn’t feel he gets the credit he deserves for his time at Villa, accusing his critics of re-writing history to demean him.
When will he realise that his reign will forever be defined by the shameful way he left the club in the lurch five days before the start of a season rather than the impressive progress he was making during his four-year tenure?
If apprentice Lambert is to take any inspiration from his master then it should be to learn from O’Neill’s mistakes, make the most of his opportunity at Villa Park and fully appreciate the privilege because the grass may never be greener elsewhere. There may never be a better opportunity.
Lambert needs to look no further than the Villa away fans every other week to remind him what he has got at this football club.
Forgive me for my fortnightly update on the travelling claret and blue army, but the Villa supporters were magnificent again and thoroughly deserved to witness the club’s first victory on the road since the January win at Wolves.
Having travelled 200 miles to Wearside they probably thought they couldn’t get any further north, but like at Newcastle they were situated at the very top of the stand.
Yet the 1,165 of them still made themselves heard among a crowd of 41,515.
By the final whistle they were sky high as Gabby Agbonlahor’s winner sparked jubilant scenes of celebration and prompted a repertoire of cheeky chants, from fruitless requests for O’Neill to give them a wave to ‘Is there a fire drill?’ taunts as many Sunderland fans trudged away prematurely.
Although, to their credit, the Stadium of Light faithful tried to roar the Mackems players out of their malaise, Villa easily won the battle of the long-suffering fanbases eager to enjoy themselves, with O’Neill’s Black Cats booed off at the end.
With Darren Bent missing a hostile return to his former club because of an injury – to his ankle and his pride – the Agbonlahor and Benteke double act continued to top the bill as the Brummie drew level with the Belgian on four goals for the season.
The breakthrough came on 57 minutes when Agbonlahor pulled away from former Villa favourite Carlos Cuellar to volley in Christian Benteke’s back-post nod-down following Matthew Lowton’s inviting cross from the right.
It was Agbonlahor’s first Premier League goal since a year ago today – in a 3-2 Villa Park win over Lambert’s Norwich – but added to his three strikes in Villa’s Capital One Cup campaign. As the goal went in, Lambert was hopping up and down on the touchline.
So too, minutes later, was O’Neill when referee Mike Jones denied his side their best chance of an equaliser by waving away their penalty appeals after John O’Shea’s header from Adam Johnson’s cross appeared to strike Benteke on both arms, although, in fairness, the powerhouse striker knew very little about it.
Sunderland substitutes Louis Saha and Fraizer Campbell headed chances off target late on, and Brad Guzan bravely saved Lee Cattermole’s edge-of-the-area strike as Steven Fletcher piled in, the Scottish striker having put the ball in the net in the opening exchanges, only for the effort to be ruled out for offside.
But the Black Cats, the Premier League’s lowest scorers with six goals, would have been better off sending on Newcastle forward Demba Ba, who is their second-highest league scorer behind five-goal Fletcher after his own goal in the Tyne and Wear derby.
It is no surprise Sunderland can’t find the net with Johnson, Stephane Sessegnon and James McClean again unable to live up to their past reputations.
For Villa, after the goal, Agbonlahor hit the crossbar when Stephen Ireland capitalised upon a poor clearance from Simon Mignolet, but the flag was already up, and the Sunderland keeper saved from Andi Weimann following a slick counter attack having already frustrated the Austrian striker in the first half.
Villa made four changes from the cup win at Swindon with Guzan, Joe Bennett, Ciaran Clark and Ashley Westwood replacing Shay Given, Eric Lichaj, Chris Herd and Karim El Ahmadi.
Having heard O’Neill eulogise about Ashley Young in recent seasons it was encouraging to hear Lambert heap praise on a young Ashley, who made an impressive full Premier League debut for the claret and blues.
Considering his previous first-team run-out was a nervy cameo as a second-half substitute in the defeat at Southampton, Westwood showed great composure.
The former Crewe midfielder was careful to retain possession and keep Villa moving and although it is early days with highs and lows only to be expected of Premier League rookies, he epitomises how Lambert’s ethos differs from O’Neill’s.
It is a project all Villa fans wish him well with as their club continues to play catch-up from the events of August 9 2010.
It’s not about re-writing history, it is about righting wrongs.
-
Matt finally got to say what he thinks then. Good show.
-
Three consecutive 6th places looks pretty good on paper, especially in the context of what Villa have done since, and what they'd done the season before MON joined. But the reality is there were only 4, maybe 5, what I would call genuinely consistently good teams in the PL during those seasons, so we were merely the best of the (generally mediocre) rest. I always argued that any decent manager given the transfer and wages budget that O'Neill had at the time, could and should have achieved at least as much. I reckon for example Redknapp, Jol and Moyes would have achieved as much comfortably, and decent cases could be made for Hodgson, Hughes (at the time), Allardyce, and maybe one or two others.
Despite increasing the number of points gained each year, it was fairly obvious from his limitations in terms of style of play, poor use of squad and uninspiring transfers that he was neither good enough nor imaginative enough to break through that glass ceiling. And even if we had managed to sneak 4th, I'm not alone in doubting that we would have made any impression whatsoever in the Champions League. Our ventures into the Europa League allowed the mighty Rapid Vienna to twice expose the paucity of our tactics and technique, so what chance against the much better teams? A key reason why his ambitions for the hot seat at the likes regular CL competitors Liverpool were never likely top be realised and never have been.
My doubts were raised, and my optimism punctured, as far back as the day he signed Harewood, when we had been led to believe there would be some bums on seats signings, and that we had the budget to sign them. It completely lacked imagination or ambition and when it was followed up with Knight in and Cahill out I think I had MON worked out from that day. He was fine if you were content with being the best of a mediocre bunch, spending a fortune to achieve that, and having the pants bored off you watching 70/80s style hoofball in the process. There were plenty of Villa fans who seemed to be, and whose reactions to any MON criticism was verging on religious zealotry. Despite trying to balance my opinion of O'Neill, I was routinely dismissed as a whinger for pointing out what is now glaringly obvious to almost everyone.
The bald fact is he had the biggest budget, the biggest free hand and the biggest opportunity any Villa manager has probably ever had to establish us a genuine force in the English game. And by that measure, he underachieved.
-
Most here will vehemently disagree but since your views in part inspired it, I thought I should pass on the link (with huge thanks to Montbert, with whom I have exchanged PMs) ... http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/oneill-out-no-but-meet-the-aston-villa-fans-questioning-that-judgement/
-
Most here will vehemently disagree but since your views in part inspired it, I thought I should pass on the link (with huge thanks to Montbert, with whom I have exchanged PMs) ... http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/oneill-out-no-but-meet-the-aston-villa-fans-questioning-that-judgement/
I was looking at your site the other day, it's a more than decent site, some good writing on there.
-
Tell you what, take a look at the argument here:
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740612
and think back to the stuff being discussed on this thread, how we were here with the whole happy clapper / doom merchant thing. Uncanny the degree to which their forum mirrors this one!
To be honest I'm fucking sick of this bullshit internet "happy clapper", "doom monger", "knee jerker" type shite, does anyone actually talk like this in the real world? There's a few bellends/ WUMs on either side of the debate, some who think the sun shines out of O'Neill's arse and think anyone who criticises him or his team must be a mag and then there are some idiots who think we should be considering his position after less than a year because we've had a poor start to the season. By and large though the vast, vast majority of fans are somewhere in the middle
-
Who's this bloody Jacob chap? He kept that one quiet. ;)
-
Tell you what, take a look at the argument here:
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=740612
and think back to the stuff being discussed on this thread, how we were here with the whole happy clapper / doom merchant thing. Uncanny the degree to which their forum mirrors this one!
To be honest I'm fucking sick of this bullshit internet "happy clapper", "doom monger", "knee jerker" type shite, does anyone actually talk like this in the real world? There's a few bellends/ WUMs on either side of the debate, some who think the sun shines out of O'Neill's arse and think anyone who criticises him or his team must be a mag and then there are some idiots who think we should be considering his position after less than a year because we've had a poor start to the season. By and large though the vast, vast majority of fans are somewhere in the middle
As it was here.
-
Who's this bloody Jacob chap? He kept that one quiet. ;)
Always thought he was crackers!
-
Who's this bloody Jacob chap? He kept that one quiet. ;)
Always thought he was crackers!
It begins.
-
Who's this bloody Jacob chap? He kept that one quiet. ;)
Always thought he was crackers!
It begins.
Only joking Jacob sorry monty, bet you wish he hadn't blown your secret eh?
-
Who's this bloody Jacob chap? He kept that one quiet. ;)
Always thought he was crackers!
It begins.
Only joking Jacob sorry monty, bet you wish he hadn't blown your secret eh?
Haha I really couldn't mind less, he has full permission to name and shame me. I do admit to being a 'sap' under my own name for the first time in print, though.
-
Sunderland also give away thousands of tickets to local schools most matches, too, I have heard.
They were also doing plenty of tickets for a tenner, too. I know Newcastle fans enjoyed that fact after having the Mackems taking the mick out of them recently for reducing ticket prices at St James' to £15.
And on that point, Albion fans were charged £15 for their game at Newcastle. We were charged £26. And I imagine they charged Man United fans £40+. Hardly fair.
-
Sunderland also give away thousands of tickets to local schools most matches, too, I have heard.
They were also doing plenty of tickets for a tenner, too. I know Newcastle fans enjoyed that fact after having the Mackems taking the mick out of them recently for reducing ticket prices at St James' to £15.
And on that point, Albion fans were charged £15 for their game at Newcastle. We were charged £26. And I imagine they charged Man United fans £40+. Hardly fair.
Seems unfair charging different prices for away fans , I suppose they are not infringing trading standards but I think away fans should all pay the same in fairness.
-
I wonder when the MON obsession will end on here? I don't seem to notice it half as much in the real world. Perhaps when we have a team that can hold a candle to the one he had. Even the current manager doesn't seem able to stop talking about him.
-
I wonder when the MON obsession will end on here? I don't seem to notice it half as much in the real world. Perhaps when we have a team that can hold a candle to the one he had. Even the current manager doesn't seem able to stop talking about him.
Not for a long time Chris. The thing with MON is that he almost transcends any club he manages such is his cult status.
We take the piss out of 'Martinoneillssunderland' but we were 'Martinoneillsvilla' whether we liked it or not.
Plus the very fact that he almost made us brilliant but ended up shafting us quite royally up the Gary means his legacy will be talked about for decades yet.
-
Hi Kingshirker
Here is my take on things if you wanted to share it with your fellow fans.
After the recent comments about “rewriting history” then I think it only appropriate to detail what I believe that history to be. When we appointed MON he was very much the right man, at the right time.
We had just parted company with one of the most unpopular managers we have ever had. A walking gaffe, who belittled the club to bolster his own ego about why it wasn’t his fault that we were underachieving and a man who had managed to turn a squad of decent players into racing certainties for relegation the following season. The atmosphere at the club had been poisonous for some time.
In no small part that was also down to our desperately unpopular chairman. A man who tried to expunge our greatest triumphs from the annals of our history as he was still sulking about being kicked off the board just before we achieved them. A man that many fans believed had held us back for years and you would hear plenty of arguments about him lining his own pockets, as well as feeding his own ego, being the only reasons he maintained his position.
So our summer just kept getting better. The pantomime villain chairman agreed to flog the club to an American billionaire and we started to dream of Man City style spending before anyone had heard of Man City style spending. We just needed a figurehead manager to make us relevant again on the back of it. Enter, stage left, MON.
He was well regarded in the game and had been successful at his previous clubs. He was charismatic, he bounced up and down the touchline in a tracksuit and, most importantly of all, he seemed to get us. He walked into the club on a tide of goodwill and into the best working conditions of any Villa manager in living memory.
The first couple of years were fantastic. He had started to put his own team together in that first season and had a real splurge in the transfer market across the course of the second. We finished sixth, scoring a bucket load of goals (mainly from set pieces) and achieved an Intertoto place to give us a shot at European football the next year. Even that year though, although none us were prepared to bemoan it at the time, the first question marks were starting to rear their heads.
At the start of that season we looked short up front and were all speculating as to who the big money, foreign buy might be. A real “bums on seat” player was what we were expecting. Instead we got Marlon Harewood after hijacking a deal at the eleventh hour for his transfer to Wigan. We never did sign any exciting players from the continent in his entire time with us and he was regularly infuriating with his procrastinating over signing players until the last possible moment.
He also got rather lucky. For the first two and a half years of his time with us we could call upon a fit and firing Martin Laursen. A colossal defender, arguably the best in the league over that period, and who was good for a few goals each year as well. It should be noted though that Laursen is a player we would never have signed had it been down to MON. A Dane playing his trade in Italy? Not a chance. What we would have signed was the kind of player we got at the end of the summer deadline that year when he decided that Zat Knight was a better fit for the squad than Gary Cahill.
The third season saw yet more heavy expenditure although, again, none of this went on a striker. By Christmas, our fantastic away form had us looking like outsiders to challenge for the title. We maintained this right until the end of February in fact. This was based on fast counter attacking football.
And then it started to fall apart. Many fans were upset about us throwing our last 32 game in The Uefa Cup against Moscow to chase Champions League football. That we then threw away a two goal lead in the league game against Stoke that weekend only made that irritation worse. Luke Young complained about why we started the season In July if we were to chuck in the towel at the business end of the competition and was quickly ostracised from the first team It then got worse again.
He had rigidly stuck with the same first eleven throughout that season to the point they were out on their feet as March began. We managed to win just two of our last 12 games, falling away from being 8 points clear of fourth placed Arsenal to another sixth place in the league.
In part this was also blamed on his one January capture. Carew was out injured for a period and we needed more goals to capitalise on our fine start. Instead we signed Heskey from Wigan and, to make matters worse, changed our style of play to accommodate the tumbling bear making us a much less potent attacking force. Lest we forget that this was the same window that Sunderland signed Bent from Spurs for not a great deal more by way of fee and a lesser salary.
The first rumblings of discontent had now begun amongst the support. The odd signings, our lack of any Plan B to break down teams that didn’t give us a chance to counter by parking the bus when we were at home and the feeling that we had let our one big chance of Champions League football pass us by. It was that January that Man City wont the lottery and signed Robinho for example.
Perhaps a more football savvy and ruthless board would have chopped him at the end of that year. They may have taken a view that our end of season collapse was unacceptable for a club that had invested as heavily as we had and that the manager should have made better use of the expensive resources, that he had signed, that were at his disposal. However, we didn’t have football men on the board and MON ran the club from top to bottom. Perhaps with that in mind it was understandable that they gave him yet more money and another tilt at it when we had come so close the year before.
The problem was that nothing had changed. The concerns that some had were never addressed. It was the same tired training methods (Walford and Robertson’s grasp of modern coaching techniques leading to them being known as Bibs and Cones by the players). We were still fishing only in the vastly overpriced UK market for players. We signed yet another back four. The style of play did not alter. His stubborn streak was to the fore at this time and he flatly refused to accept a need for change or any criticism of himself.
An example that springs to mind was a home game where we were behind against relegation strugglers and still plodding on with Plan A. The fans got restless and were heartened to finally see Delfouneso start to prepare to come on, suggesting that we were going to change things up front. It was greeted with ironic cheers. The response from the manager was to sit the player down and bring on a midfielder instead. Again, there was plenty of debate here as to whether this was done to prove a point to the fans that were questioning him.
Now some may argue that at the end of that season some Villa fans were way off beam to be questioning the manager openly. We finished sixth again. Got to a cup final and a semi. But, as plenty of us saw it, he had hit his glass ceiling. This was as good as it was ever going to get no matter how much money we let him throw at it.
We made the same substitutions, at the same time every week (Heskey time as it was known). He still wasn’t rotating the players as he had suggested himself he needed to in both previous summers. A lot of expensive squad players he had signed were kicking their heels in the stiffs and not getting a game. For the first time in his reign the board put a brake on expenditure and the fabled “sell to buy” policy began.
It wasn’t quite as it seemed though. What he had actually been told was to shift a bunch of squad players on that weren’t getting near a game. That the Famous Five he mooted in the local paper were pulling down nigh on £300,000 a week in scratch between them made this seem a pretty sensible thing for the board to do. MON’s problem was that these players were on salaries not commensurate with their talent and therefore it proved very difficult to drum up any interest in them.
He clung on until August in the desperate hope that he could get the owner to open the coffers again to bring further new blood in but this time Lerner remained resolute. I could do a whole piece about the why’s and wherefore’s of his departure. The players he wanted, the political wrangling behind the scenes, the Liverpool job etc. I don’t think that is for here though. It won’t interest you. And I know how litigious he can be.
What we can say without question is that he bailed out on us five days before the start of the season. It left us with no time to find a replacement. No time for that replacement to work with the squad. No time for him to make his own signings. It has been debated to death on here as to whether this was a calculated act of spite, designed to cause maximum damage to our season or whether this was, in fact, simply when he realised he was not going to get what he wanted and walked as he did not believe he could therefore do the job justice.
I suppose in summary it depends what you want as to how long you stick with him. Are you ever going to play free flowing, passing football? No you aren’t. With a couple more years, and plenty more money, you might find yourselves as regular mid table finishers who play decent, counter attacking stuff away from home but that is as far as he will take you . And what price do you put on those mid table finishes?
Where you have a real issue is that he doesn’t seem the same bloke that was our manager. He made up for a lot of his tactical naivety with his ability to motivate players. He did very well last season but looked a pale shadow of the guy who breezed into Villa Park a few years ago. If he has lost his mojo for the job then you lose a lot of the good things he brings to the party.
I hope it works out alright for you as I happen to think Sunderland are a decent club and, for all the things I take issue with over his time managing us, it is certainly not a case of it being all bad in his time here. Far from it. Just don’t expect him to go beyond his limitations and, whatever you do, keep a tight grip on your wallet.
-
Sunderland also give away thousands of tickets to local schools most matches, too, I have heard.
They were also doing plenty of tickets for a tenner, too. I know Newcastle fans enjoyed that fact after having the Mackems taking the mick out of them recently for reducing ticket prices at St James' to £15.
And on that point, Albion fans were charged £15 for their game at Newcastle. We were charged £26. And I imagine they charged Man United fans £40+. Hardly fair.
Seems unfair charging different prices for away fans , I suppose they are not infringing trading standards but I think away fans should all pay the same in fairness.
I agree with you eastie. Villa are the same in that our top price is what we charge away fans. And with there being a number of different categories, you'll have Wigan fans being charged £37 at Villa Park (still a ridiculous price) whereas Man United fans on Saturday will have to pay £45 for the same seats. Are Manchester United fans more wealthy than Wigan supporters?!
Our ticket prices do not vary as much as some, though. Southampton & West Brom's tickets at Arsenal were (or in the case of Albion 'are') £25.50. We paid £35 there last season for an FA Cup game and, get this, they're charging Spurs fans £62! £62!!
-
Hi Kingshirker
Here is my take on things if you wanted to share it with your fellow fans.
After the recent comments about “rewriting history” then I think it only appropriate to detail what I believe that history to be. When we appointed MON he was very much the right man, at the right time.
We had just parted company with one of the most unpopular managers we have ever had. A walking gaffe, who belittled the club to bolster his own ego about why it wasn’t his fault that we were underachieving and a man who had managed to turn a squad of decent players into racing certainties for relegation the following season. The atmosphere at the club had been poisonous for some time.
In no small part that was also down to our desperately unpopular chairman. A man who tried to expunge our greatest triumphs from the annals of our history as he was still sulking about being kicked off the board just before we achieved them. A man that many fans believed had held us back for years and you would hear plenty of arguments about him lining his own pockets, as well as feeding his own ego, being the only reasons he maintained his position.
So our summer just kept getting better. The pantomime villain chairman agreed to flog the club to an American billionaire and we started to dream of Man City style spending before anyone had heard of Man City style spending. We just needed a figurehead manager to make us relevant again on the back of it. Enter, stage left, MON.
He was well regarded in the game and had been successful at his previous clubs. He was charismatic, he bounced up and down the touchline in a tracksuit and, most importantly of all, he seemed to get us. He walked into the club on a tide of goodwill and into the best working conditions of any Villa manager in living memory.
The first couple of years were fantastic. He had started to put his own team together in that first season and had a real splurge in the transfer market across the course of the second. We finished sixth, scoring a bucket load of goals (mainly from set pieces) and achieved an Intertoto place to give us a shot at European football the next year. Even that year though, although none us were prepared to bemoan it at the time, the first question marks were starting to rear their heads.
At the start of that season we looked short up front and were all speculating as to who the big money, foreign buy might be. A real “bums on seat” player was what we were expecting. Instead we got Marlon Harewood after hijacking a deal at the eleventh hour for his transfer to Wigan. We never did sign any exciting players from the continent in his entire time with us and he was regularly infuriating with his procrastinating over signing players until the last possible moment.
He also got rather lucky. For the first two and a half years of his time with us we could call upon a fit and firing Martin Laursen. A colossal defender, arguably the best in the league over that period, and who was good for a few goals each year as well. It should be noted though that Laursen is a player we would never have signed had it been down to MON. A Dane playing his trade in Italy? Not a chance. What we would have signed was the kind of player we got at the end of the summer deadline that year when he decided that Zat Knight was a better fit for the squad than Gary Cahill.
The third season saw yet more heavy expenditure although, again, none of this went on a striker. By Christmas, our fantastic away form had us looking like outsiders to challenge for the title. We maintained this right until the end of February in fact. This was based on fast counter attacking football.
And then it started to fall apart. Many fans were upset about us throwing our last 32 game in The Uefa Cup against Moscow to chase Champions League football. That we then threw away a two goal lead in the league game against Stoke that weekend only made that irritation worse. Luke Young complained about why we started the season In July if we were to chuck in the towel at the business end of the competition and was quickly ostracised from the first team It then got worse again.
He had rigidly stuck with the same first eleven throughout that season to the point they were out on their feet as March began. We managed to win just two of our last 12 games, falling away from being 8 points clear of fourth placed Arsenal to another sixth place in the league.
In part this was also blamed on his one January capture. Carew was out injured for a period and we needed more goals to capitalise on our fine start. Instead we signed Heskey from Wigan and, to make matters worse, changed our style of play to accommodate the tumbling bear making us a much less potent attacking force. Lest we forget that this was the same window that Sunderland signed Bent from Spurs for not a great deal more by way of fee and a lesser salary.
The first rumblings of discontent had now begun amongst the support. The odd signings, our lack of any Plan B to break down teams that didn’t give us a chance to counter by parking the bus when we were at home and the feeling that we had let our one big chance of Champions League football pass us by. It was that January that Man City wont the lottery and signed Robinho for example.
Perhaps a more football savvy and ruthless board would have chopped him at the end of that year. They may have taken a view that our end of season collapse was unacceptable for a club that had invested as heavily as we had and that the manager should have made better use of the expensive resources, that he had signed, that were at his disposal. However, we didn’t have football men on the board and MON ran the club from top to bottom. Perhaps with that in mind it was understandable that they gave him yet more money and another tilt at it when we had come so close the year before.
The problem was that nothing had changed. The concerns that some had were never addressed. It was the same tired training methods (Walford and Robertson’s grasp of modern coaching techniques leading to them being known as Bibs and Cones by the players). We were still fishing only in the vastly overpriced UK market for players. We signed yet another back four. The style of play did not alter. His stubborn streak was to the fore at this time and he flatly refused to accept a need for change or any criticism of himself.
An example that springs to mind was a home game where we were behind against relegation strugglers and still plodding on with Plan A. The fans got restless and were heartened to finally see Delfouneso start to prepare to come on, suggesting that we were going to change things up front. It was greeted with ironic cheers. The response from the manager was to sit the player down and bring on a midfielder instead. Again, there was plenty of debate here as to whether this was done to prove a point to the fans that were questioning him.
Now some may argue that at the end of that season some Villa fans were way off beam to be questioning the manager openly. We finished sixth again. Got to a cup final and a semi. But, as plenty of us saw it, he had hit his glass ceiling. This was as good as it was ever going to get no matter how much money we let him throw at it.
We made the same substitutions, at the same time every week (Heskey time as it was known). He still wasn’t rotating the players as he had suggested himself he needed to in both previous summers. A lot of expensive squad players he had signed were kicking their heels in the stiffs and not getting a game. For the first time in his reign the board put a brake on expenditure and the fabled “sell to buy” policy began.
It wasn’t quite as it seemed though. What he had actually been told was to shift a bunch of squad players on that weren’t getting near a game. That the Famous Five he mooted in the local paper were pulling down nigh on £300,000 a week in scratch between them made this seem a pretty sensible thing for the board to do. MON’s problem was that these players were on salaries not commensurate with their talent and therefore it proved very difficult to drum up any interest in them.
He clung on until August in the desperate hope that he could get the owner to open the coffers again to bring further new blood in but this time Lerner remained resolute. I could do a whole piece about the why’s and wherefore’s of his departure. The players he wanted, the political wrangling behind the scenes, the Liverpool job etc. I don’t think that is for here though. It won’t interest you. And I know how litigious he can be.
What we can say without question is that he bailed out on us five days before the start of the season. It left us with no time to find a replacement. No time for that replacement to work with the squad. No time for him to make his own signings. It has been debated to death on here as to whether this was a calculated act of spite, designed to cause maximum damage to our season or whether this was, in fact, simply when he realised he was not going to get what he wanted and walked as he did not believe he could therefore do the job justice.
I suppose in summary it depends what you want as to how long you stick with him. Are you ever going to play free flowing, passing football? No you aren’t. With a couple more years, and plenty more money, you might find yourselves as regular mid table finishers who play decent, counter attacking stuff away from home but that is as far as he will take you . And what price do you put on those mid table finishes?
Where you have a real issue is that he doesn’t seem the same bloke that was our manager. He made up for a lot of his tactical naivety with his ability to motivate players. He did very well last season but looked a pale shadow of the guy who breezed into Villa Park a few years ago. If he has lost his mojo for the job then you lose a lot of the good things he brings to the party.
I hope it works out alright for you as I happen to think Sunderland are a decent club and, for all the things I take issue with over his time managing us, it is certainly not a case of it being all bad in his time here. Far from it. Just don’t expect him to go beyond his limitations and, whatever you do, keep a tight grip on your wallet.
A really excellent post - very long but well worth reading.
-
Great post above. However going back to what was said about the unimaginative signings by MON i could not agree more. Heskey Sidwell Reo-Joker Shorey Downing etc were all such obvious signing at the time, playing well for their previous clubs and all saw the Money at villa and very much underperformed. The best bits of business done were the Carew swap deal, Ashley Young, Chris Sutton (he was what we needed in that transitional period), Brad Friedal and Jimmy Milner. Others like Warnock and Dunne were quick fixes who made an instant impact only to show their endless cracks as time went by.
-
What Eastie posted. Well said, Chelts.
-
Submit that to Dave for the next H&V, CL. Sums it up perfectly.
-
Nicely put Chelts, I think that's a fair summary.
-
An excellent assessment, cheltenhamlion
-
Did someone just say something about Dicky Dunne's endless crack?
-
Good post Cheltenham lion but get some bloody work done tomorrow, that must of taken you all day to write.
-
Less than an hour and I took lunch towards when I was supposed to be leaving for the day!
Dave - If you want top open up old wounds and use that for the Chrimbo edition you are welcome.
Perhaps as an open letter to their fans if so.
-
Can you reply with that to the emails mon sent to the sland fans?!
Great post.
-
Excellent post CL. A heart-breaking read in some ways, particularly when you consider how close we were, but the bottom line is that O'Neill's idiosyncrasies were simultaneously the reason why we did so well and the reason why we were never going to do any better.
-
Less than an hour and I took lunch towards when I was supposed to be leaving for the day!
Dave - If you want top open up old wounds and use that for the Chrimbo edition you are welcome.
Perhaps as an open letter to their fans if so.
Take a bow son, top quality stuff. It actually is the first time since MON left that I have had a vivid memory of what it was like when he was our manager and how bloody frustrating it was every time we reached a crossroads and he chose the wrong bloody turn.
-
Fantastic post Chelts.
-
A really excellent piece chelts. I hoped you would have got in a sentence or two about the exploitation of the Clough connection but that is a tiny quibble about as definitive a statement on the topic as we shall ever get.
-
Tell you what Brian, here is a paragraph or two just for you:
The other thing with the MON myth of course is that it is predicated in the past. The national media desperately want to see him as the reincarnation of Brian Clough. The difference is that, for all his personal posturing, he won't accept assistance in the way Cloughie would.
Peter Taylor found the players Clough needed, from the lower leagues and at the right price. MON's scouting involved Ian Storey Moore telling him an England international might be able to play. He is as much a Clough clone as I am of Mourinho.
-
Just to join in the praise, beautifully written article.
I read the post that you made of it on that Sunderland blog and was going to come here to direct people to it. Clearly no need for that.
-
If its on a Sunderland blog they have played copy and paste. I only posted it here.
-
If its on a Sunderland blog they have played copy and paste. I only posted it here.
Fair enough, it's been put on that previous linked site - http://salutsunderland.com/2012/11/oneill-out-no-but-meet-the-aston-villa-fans-questioning-that-judgement/ as one of the responses.
-
Excellent post CL. A heart-breaking read in some ways, particularly when you consider how close we were, but the bottom line is that O'Neill's idiosyncrasies were simultaneously the reason why we did so well and the reason why we were never going to do any better.
Quite right, Hilts. I agree entirely.
-
In fact, let us very briefly go again.
If he was not such a one dimensional, stubborn prick, he could just have gone down as another marvellous chapter in our illustrious history. He was that close.
Had he not been such a self centred, egotistical, stuck in his ways, bastard he could have achieved the holy grail that so many had tried, and failed, to get right before him.
-
Fuck me it's a feeding frenzy. It reminds me of when I walked into the pubs on Chelmsley after they'd beaten us.
Not that I had to worry about that when O'Neill was manager.
-
Less than an hour and I took lunch towards when I was supposed to be leaving for the day!
Dave - If you want top open up old wounds and use that for the Chrimbo edition you are welcome.
Perhaps as an open letter to their fans if so.
What just an open letter? No this should get a literary prize. It should be printed in the thousands and distributed to the masses. It will become a guide for all of us who suffered the delusions of being a disciple of Saint Martin. We shall gather in Greg Nash's bunker and read the great text before being shown Eastie's 24 hour SkySport compilations of the infidel's interviews. I repent my ways, I just thank you that you allowed me to see how I had trodden this treacherous path.
-
Cheltenham Lion, that is the most well observed and well written post on the subject. UTV Hawkeye
-
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
-
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
Thats what happens with fanatics, they can never accept that they got it wrong.
-
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
Thats what happens with fanatics, they can never accept that they got it wrong.
With your help I'll conquer this terrible affliction
-
Less than an hour and I took lunch towards when I was supposed to be leaving for the day!
Dave - If you want top open up old wounds and use that for the Chrimbo edition you are welcome.
Perhaps as an open letter to their fans if so.
What just an open letter? No this should get a literary prize. It should be printed in the thousands and distributed to the masses. It will become a guide for all of us who suffered the delusions of being a disciple of Saint Martin. We shall gather in Greg Nash's bunker and read the great text before being shown Eastie's 24 hour SkySport compilations of the infidel's interviews. I repent my ways, I just thank you that you allowed me to see how I had trodden this treacherous path.
Ooh, get you. I have to hit the shower pre work but I so wish you had turned in an hour ago to actually debate this.
The guy that told me I cant possibly know more about the goings on at the club than you because you didnt know it yourself and, if I did, I would have played ITK cards with all und sundry to prove my point.
I have of course given Dave W scoops in the past, as well as Mods on here, but dont let that get in the way of you defending your great pal, Marty.
Will respond tomorrow (after talking to my agent of course).
Love, Stu xx
-
Fuck me it's a feeding frenzy. It reminds me of when I walked into the pubs on Chelmsley after they'd beaten us.
Not that I had to worry about that when O'Neill was manager.
As one of the people who backed MoN quite strongly until the last few months, I think for me the problem is, for all the good things he did, it's hard to look at the current squad, compare it to the cash spent in the last 6 years and not think he made a bit of a mess of things.
I was happy with how things went but there was never any long-term planning and over the last 2 years we've seen just how little plan there was.
-
Anyone seen Garth Crooks's team of the week? Central defense: Ciaran Clark and Gary Cahill. What might have been...
-
It was a good piece Chelts, but for emphasis you could have mentioned the wage bill at Spurs!
-
It was a good piece Chelts, but for emphasis you could have mentioned the wage bill at Spurs!
As terrifying as that is to recall, it's a good example of a poster for whom O'Neill could do no wrong. He was more ready to believe that Spurs were cooking their books than he was to believe in the possibility that O'Neill was throwing an awful lot of money at some very average players.
-
Fuck me it's a feeding frenzy. It reminds me of when I walked into the pubs on Chelmsley after they'd beaten us.
Not that I had to worry about that when O'Neill was manager.
As one of the people who backed MoN quite strongly until the last few months, I think for me the problem is, for all the good things he did, it's hard to look at the current squad, compare it to the cash spent in the last 6 years and not think he made a bit of a mess of things.
I was happy with how things went but there was never any long-term planning and over the last 2 years we've seen just how little plan there was.
Quite but isn't that more the fault of Lerner than MON. It's impossible to defend some of MON's signings and their short termism but the financial running of the Club should have been Lerner's domain imo.
-
Less than an hour and I took lunch towards when I was supposed to be leaving for the day!
Dave - If you want top open up old wounds and use that for the Chrimbo edition you are welcome.
Perhaps as an open letter to their fans if so.
What just an open letter? No this should get a literary prize. It should be printed in the thousands and distributed to the masses. It will become a guide for all of us who suffered the delusions of being a disciple of Saint Martin. We shall gather in Greg Nash's bunker and read the great text before being shown Eastie's 24 hour SkySport compilations of the infidel's interviews. I repent my ways, I just thank you that you allowed me to see how I had trodden this treacherous path.
Ooh, get you. I have to hit the shower pre work but I so wish you had turned in an hour ago to actually debate this.
The guy that told me I cant possibly know more about the goings on at the club than you because you didnt know it yourself and, if I did, I would have played ITK cards with all und sundry to prove my point.
I have of course given Dave W scoops in the past, as well as Mods on here, but dont let that get in the way of you defending your great pal, Marty.
Will respond tomorrow (after talking to my agent of course).
Love, Stu xx
Only joshing, its a nicely written article. But it has all gone a bit weird here recently. And I'm sorry that I'm still pals with Martin, I'm trying not to like him I really am
-
I think Lerner backed his man in a naive manner, but the money spent should have had a much wider reaching legacy than 28 months later down to kids and bare bones, even after the further investment of what, 60-70 million since MON left. The myth the spending just stopped is peddled regularly, but it didn't just stop at all, and has been significant since he left just to hold together a squad, as what MON built was a team, with a group of the highest paid journeymen subs in the league that have financially crippled us since. Although pretending Given, Ireland, Hutton and NZogbia are not part of that problem too would be wrong.
Lerner gets a lot of stick, but his biggest errors have been the managers appointed after MON and if anything backing MON too much, which is harsh to label him with. I have a lot of sympathy for him. He backed Houllier, Eck and has Lambert, unfortunately it is only the latter who appeared to grasp that the money is finite and needs to be used to build a squad of footballers, which is still a work in progress. I do wonder how much of the spending MON made was under the guise of "say no and I am out of here" which looked to be the likely reason he eventually took his ball off home. I mean, having got Cuellar and Luke Young, when he asked for 50k for week for Beye to play at right back, had Lerner questioned it what would have been the response from Martin??! Not favourable you have to the think. Poor decisions have hurt Lerner, but he has unreservedly backed his managers until this summer, when the club looked for a manager to work in a much different way, and Lambert has an appetite to do so thankfully. I am looking forward to the next 3 - 5 years much more now than I was on the day before Martin left, despite the current league position.
-
I think Lerner backed his man in a naive manner, but the money spent should have had a much wider reaching legacy than 28 months later down to kids and bare bones, even after the further investment of what, 60-70 million since MON left. The myth the spending just stopped is peddled regularly, but it didn't just stop at all, and has been significant since he left just to hold together a squad, as what MON built was a team, with a group of the highest paid journeymen subs in the league that have financially crippled us since. Although pretending Given, Ireland, Hutton and NZogbia are not part of that problem too would be wrong.
Lerner gets a lot of stick, but his biggest errors have been the managers appointed after MON and if anything backing MON too much, which is harsh to label him with. I have a lot of sympathy for him. He backed Houllier, Eck and has Lambert, unfortunately it is only the latter who appeared to grasp that the money is finite and needs to be used to build a squad of footballers, which is still a work in progress. I do wonder how much of the spending MON made was under the guise of "say no and I am out of here" which looked to be the likely reason he eventually took his ball off home. I mean, having got Cuellar and Luke Young, when he asked for 50k for week for Beye to play at right back, had Lerner questioned it what would have been the response from Martin??! Not favourable you have to the think. Poor decisions have hurt Lerner, but he has unreservedly backed his managers until this summer, when the club looked for a manager to work in a much different way, and Lambert has an appetite to do so thankfully. I am looking forward to the next 3 - 5 years much more now than I was on the day before Martin left, despite the current league position.
I can understand why they let MON to have free reins as he was basicly touted as The Next Brian Clough. I try to look at the years of MON with objectivity, and when you look at the signings he made and how much he burned the money on them it just pains me thinking what kind of signings we could've made with that money. I don't hate MON and his time at Villa but I see it much more as "What could have been" and completely wasted potential.
I don't think no one can argue that Lerner haven't backed his managers, even TSM got decent transfer kit, but I have to wonder if TSM didn't think he needed to spend more to replace both Young and Downing, or didn't Lerner give him more to either transfers or salaries.
-
I think Lerner backed his man in a naive manner, but the money spent should have had a much wider reaching legacy than 28 months later down to kids and bare bones, even after the further investment of what, 60-70 million since MON left. The myth the spending just stopped is peddled regularly, but it didn't just stop at all, and has been significant since he left just to hold together a squad, as what MON built was a team, with a group of the highest paid journeymen subs in the league that have financially crippled us since. Although pretending Given, Ireland, Hutton and NZogbia are not part of that problem too would be wrong.
Lerner gets a lot of stick, but his biggest errors have been the managers appointed after MON and if anything backing MON too much, which is harsh to label him with. I have a lot of sympathy for him. He backed Houllier, Eck and has Lambert, unfortunately it is only the latter who appeared to grasp that the money is finite and needs to be used to build a squad of footballers, which is still a work in progress. I do wonder how much of the spending MON made was under the guise of "say no and I am out of here" which looked to be the likely reason he eventually took his ball off home. I mean, having got Cuellar and Luke Young, when he asked for 50k for week for Beye to play at right back, had Lerner questioned it what would have been the response from Martin??! Not favourable you have to the think. Poor decisions have hurt Lerner, but he has unreservedly backed his managers until this summer, when the club looked for a manager to work in a much different way, and Lambert has an appetite to do so thankfully. I am looking forward to the next 3 - 5 years much more now than I was on the day before Martin left, despite the current league position.
I cant find the quote , but didn't Lerner refer to O'Neill "as practically a director" or words to that effect ?
-
If its on a Sunderland blog they have played copy and paste. I only posted it here.
Cheltenhamlion: Just to clarify, I copied and pasted it at Salut! Sunderland,because I interpreted your words - "Here is my take on things if you wanted to share it with your fellow fans" - as an invit ation to do so.
-
I am more than happy to give the board a kicking where due and they are most certainly not blameless in the sorry charade of the last two or three years. I just find it hard to accept that some people still refuse to believe MON ever did any wrong.
-
A good analysis of the reasons for the plight we found ourselves in.
Wonder if this is the revisionism that MON referred to last weekend as opposed to the 'truth' pedalled by his media buddies?
May I forward it to all those friends who continue to say what a good manager he was and why were we so daft as to force him out?
-
I am more than happy to give the board a kicking where due and they are most certainly not blameless in the sorry charade of the last two or three years. I just find it hard to accept that some people still refuse to believe MON ever did any wrong.
I don't think there is anybody on here in that camp.
There are those who might still like him to be here, and are happy with how the team did results wise overall while he ran the show but "did no wrong". Not even MON himself would admit to that.
I'm glad he's gone now because like many I think he hit a ceiling and couldn't do a very important part of the job resulting in him walking out on us.
However, I thank him for those results against our neighbours and that away win at Old Trafford, something I thought I'd never see. I even think that had Phil Dowd done his job properly in the League cup final we might well have celebrated a trophy under his tenure. That been the case, we wouldn't now be as hard on him.
-
I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the brave freedom-fighters who were the first to say that Marton O'Neill was a wanker.
Your courage was not in vain.
-
Power to the Revolution!.........Comrades
-
I think you are right about the League Cup, Bren. Had all that money resulted in silverware we might be a little less harsh in our condemnation.
Its still bloody difficult to get past the timing of his departure mind.
-
I think you are right about the League Cup, Bren. Had all that money resulted in silverware we might be a little less harsh in our condemnation.
Its still bloody difficult to get past the timing of his departure mind.
I think the Wembley appearances were both the height of his success and the biggest indicator he wouldn't be taking us further, in that it was great to get there, but over 180 minutes of football, we must have managed at most 3 shots on goal.
Things may have been different had it not been for Phil Dowd, true, but even so, those two matches really showed up our limitations, I thought.
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
You must have even more time on your hands than I have. My point being that, contrary to expectations among some of you, he wasn't about to get sacked. None of us could have predicted what looked like an emotional reaction to events.
-
I don't think anyone thought he was going to get sacked. There might have been those who thought he should have, but he'd hardly done anything to warrant getting the bullet.
But there will have been absolutely nobody who expected him to walk out with the timing he did. I disagree with it likely being emotional. MON strikes me as someone who is very careful with how he plots out his career. If I had to put my money anywhere, it would have been on "calculated".
-
He didn't do enough to get sacked, sacking someone after a 6th place finish would have been harsh. But at that point he was no longer over acheiving, unlike like the previous season perhaps. He had his chance to push on, I think he failed with that.
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
You must have even more time on your hands than I have. My point being that, contrary to expectations among some of you, he wasn't about to get sacked. None of us could have predicted what looked like an emotional reaction to events.
Jesus I think some of us are going to get shiI've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
Jesus it feels as though some of us are going to get shifted off to the gulag and have show trials where we admit to wildy celebrating the 5th goal against the Blues and singing Martin give us a wave.
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
Jesus it feels as though some of us are going to get shifted off to the gulag and have show trials where we admit to wildy celebrating the 5th goal against the Blues and singing Martin give us a wave.
Yes, that's exactly what it is like, isn't it?
-
It wasn't all bad under him by any stretch of the imagination. His record in derbies was exemplary. Some of the games we featured in were great. Our away record was second to none.
He was just too blinkered, stubborn and set in his ways to change anything to take us any further.
-
I don't know about anyone else, but what I dislike most about him isn't what he did (or didn't) do here, how or when or why he walked out or his bad taste in matchday apparel. More than anything I can't stand what's happened since he left, with the media bemoaning us for not showing him enough respect, generally reckoning it serves us right for driving him away and the re-writing of history that makes it appear to the casual observer that we got rid of him after years of under-investment which would have seen us in the Conference were it not for his genius.
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
Jesus it feels as though some of us are going to get shifted off to the gulag and have show trials where we admit to wildy celebrating the 5th goal against the Blues and singing Martin give us a wave.
Yes, that's exactly what it is like, isn't it?
Doh
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
Jesus it feels as though some of us are going to get shifted off to the gulag and have show trials where we admit to wildy celebrating the 5th goal against the Blues and singing Martin give us a wave.
Yes, that's exactly what it is like, isn't it?
Doh
If you look through the thread, you'll struggle to find anyone who has a low opinion of MON but doesn't also acknowledge the good things he achieved here.
-
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
Thats what happens with fanatics, they can never accept that they got it wrong.
The only facts are the results, everything else is conjecture, speculation and opinion.
So you'd better admit to having got that wrong hawkeye, or it makes you a fanatic.
-
I wasn't that bothered when he went. I thought a competent replacement would do well. In my mind he was inheriting a good first team and some squad players who would be straining at the leash to prove their worth at last. He would address all the issues that we had been debating seemingly forever - specialised full-backs, rotation, passing football etc, we had the players didn't we?
Instead we got Houllier, who couldn't get the best out of Gabby and Ireland, played Young out of position, already had his mind made up about Carew, and alienated Dunne and Collins. Friedel and Petrov, being the brilliant pros they are, carried on as normal, and he got some decent performances out of Heskey.
A good manager would have massaged the egos of all the wankers and players he didn't rate until such time as they were comfortable in the table or he could actually do something about shipping them out and replacing them.
Then we followed that clown with T-fucking-S-fucking-M. Unbelievable.
Careful Percy people will think me and you are the same person
-
It wasn't all bad under him by any stretch of the imagination. His record in derbies was exemplary. Some of the games we featured in were great. Our away record was second to none.
He was just too blinkered, stubborn and set in his ways to change anything to take us any further.
Add to that "tactically limited" and that pretty much sums up it all up.
-
I don't know about anyone else, but what I dislike most about him isn't what he did (or didn't) do here, how or when or why he walked out or his bad taste in matchday apparel. More than anything I can't stand what's happened since he left, with the media bemoaning us for not showing him enough respect, generally reckoning it serves us right for driving him away and the re-writing of history that makes it appear to the casual observer that we got rid of him after years of under-investment which would have seen us in the Conference were it not for his genius.
I think that's my biggest issue as well. Although at the time I did get massively frustrated by his inability to have a bit of imagination in the transfer market, combined with his inflexible tactics.
-
The only facts are the results, everything else is conjecture, speculation and opinion.
A couple of Facts then.
Results invariably dried up in the second half of each season, especially from March.
Despite having more money thrown at him than any other Villa manager ever, O'Neill could not make that final step up from sixth.
Those are result driven facts. The conjecture and speculation comes in when we try to analyse why, and also why he chose to give up on the project at the most inopportune possible moment for the club.
-
Then we followed that clown with T-fucking-S-fucking-M. Unbelievable.
MON's departure also laid bare the incompetence at the top.
Houllier I could just about see the sense in as an appointment, but I'll never, ever understand what they did with McLeish. Just beyond belief.
-
The only facts are the results, everything else is conjecture, speculation and opinion.
A couple of Facts then.
Results invariably dried up in the second half of each season, especially from March.
Despite having more money thrown at him than any other Villa manager ever, O'Neill could not make that final step up from sixth.
Those are result driven facts. The conjecture and speculation comes in when we try to analyse why, and also why he chose to give up on the project at the most inopportune possible moment for the club.
Another one.
Look at the goals for column for us at home in his last two seasons. From memory, it was 28 each year. Then factor in the fact that both those seasons involved a five goal thrashing of Bolton or some other dross side, thus leaving 18 goals stretched across the remaining 17 home games.
So, basically, a goal a game for 90 percent of the season. Pretty poor.
I'd also add that him dumping on us five days before the start of a season was also a fact.
-
I've been trying not to join in with the "I told you so" fest, as tempting as it is, but I did enjoy this particular post from Chris Smith, "Randy seems to have come to a similar conclusion to those in the former camp and that is why MON will be our manager this coming season.". Four days before O'Neill walked out!
Jesus it feels as though some of us are going to get shifted off to the gulag and have show trials where we admit to wildy celebrating the 5th goal against the Blues and singing Martin give us a wave.
Yes, that's exactly what it is like, isn't it?
Doh
If you look through the thread, you'll struggle to find anyone who has a low opinion of MON but doesn't also acknowledge the good things he achieved here.
I don't think that is quite correct. I think there are a lot of us who have a low opinion of him (even if it was only formed after he walked). But that does not mean to say that we don't acknowledge the good things he did.
Edit. Ignore. Reread your post.
-
Paulie: yes, him leaving when he did was/is a fact. People are mainly on trial for what they posted while he was here.
-
People are mainly on trial for what they posted while he was here.
Pass me the black cap!
-
People are mainly on trial for what they posted while he was here.
Pass me the black cap!
*slams down gavel*
Send him down!
-
You join us here at the "Martin O'Neill: Truth and Reconcilliation Inquest"...
-
I object, your honor! This trial is a travesty. It's a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham.
-
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
-
Plea bargain: if you like I'll pretend that the people who spent every summer on here predicting how shit we were going to be were right all along. Hell, I'll even join in with the congratulations.
Can I join the Ministry of Truth club then?
-
The Rise of the Neo-Monettes................
-
Ah, that old chestnut. In the absence of an argument, call them a stupid name.
-
Do you think Damon will do a news report on the trial from outside the Old Bailey?
-
Stop being such a big tart Perce, we're only joshing with you! Anyway, the only person who really used to wind me up with all this, was Villadawg and his utter refusal to even contemplate that he might be wrong on the wages issue.
-
I don't think they do kangaroo courts at the Old Bailey.
-
You're wrong. Skippy got sent down for 10 years the other day for smuggling counterfeit goods in his pouch.
-
Ultimately the most damning thing for me about MON is that despite having by far the best working conditions of any Villa manager in my life, he's only the 6th or 7th most successful in that time. It's a toss up between him and Gregory for 6th and 7th. Both peaked at 6th, both wasted a lot of money, both got to a cup final and semi final.
-
Riss: 'we're only joshing with you'!
I suspected as much. I've read so much ridiculous bollocks on the last few pages, I couldn't believe it was serious.
-
I don't think they do kangaroo courts at the Old Bailey.
Huh, that's the only kind of court there is in this rapidly failing capitalistic system, comrade.
/student_grant
-
"They send people to the gallows for nicking a packet of Polos, whilst the capitalist scum get away with selling children's vital organs".
-
The most sensible things posted all day.
-
My take is that the large majority of posters on here are very much angry that we did not progress further under MON, and there is generally some cracking debate above.
I think that the negatives ( lack of tactical flexibility, dull home performances, high transfer fees and salaries, failure to maintain momentum in February / March each season, poor progress in Europe, timing of departure) and positives (consistent top 6 finishes, beating all the then Sky 4 teams, fantastic away form, knowing we could beat anybody, anywhere, anytime, magnificent record in local derbies, opponents were very wary of us) are generally acknowledged by both supporters and critics alike.
One element that is not sufficiently acknowledged is the three consecutive 6th place finishes. Other managers have achieved 6th place, but I think that MON was the first manager in my lifetime to achieve this for 3 years in a row, and I am 50 in a month's time. We had reached a level of consistency - too consistent, unfortunately - that had been lacking for a long time and were ideally positioned to remain there. The right appointment in 2010 should have seen us stay very near to 6th spot, maybe move higher. This was a real wasted opportunity.
Amazing that over two years after his departure that we have a thread of nearly 40 pages!
-
Stop being such a big tart Perce, we're only joshing with you! Anyway, the only person who really used to wind me up with all this, was Villadawg and his utter refusal to even contemplate that he might be wrong on the wages issue.
Agreed and his graphical charts were a pain too!
-
My take is that the large majority of posters on here are very much angry that we did not progress further under MON, and there is generally some cracking debate above.
I think that the negatives ( lack of tactical flexibility, dull home performances, high transfer fees and salaries, failure to maintain momentum in February / March each season, poor progress in Europe, timing of departure) and positives (consistent top 6 finishes, beating all the then Sky 4 teams, fantastic away form, knowing we could beat anybody, anywhere, anytime, magnificent record in local derbies, opponents were very wary of us) are generally acknowledged by both supporters and critics alike.
One element that is not sufficiently acknowledged is the three consecutive 6th place finishes. Other managers have achieved 6th place, but I think that MON was the first manager in my lifetime to achieve this for 3 years in a row, and I am 50 in a month's time. We had reached a level of consistency - too consistent, unfortunately - that had been lacking for a long time and were ideally positioned to remain there. The right appointment in 2010 should have seen us stay very near to 6th spot, maybe move higher. This was a real wasted opportunity.
Amazing that over two years after his departure that we have a thread of nearly 40 pages!
I agree with your post but would point out that we were never out of the top eight between 1996 and 2002 and reached fourth and fifth within that time. That was pretty consistent.
-
Yeah we had a 4th, 5th and 6th in a row. Trumps MON I'm afraid.
-
Yeah we had a 4th, 5th and 6th in a row. Trumps MON I'm afraid.
Including a Wembley final win.
-
Yeah we had a 4th, 5th and 6th in a row. Trumps MON I'm afraid.
The third was a seventh and that was followed by sixth which meant four top sevens in a row.
-
But we won a pot and got close other times as well. Including the FA Cup. That is a whole different conversation however...
-
The thing with those late 90s finishes was we were in a general slow decline from the high of Sir Brian's first full season until it went really wrong under Sir Graham MKII. With MON's three 6th places there was a feeling, which obviously caused great debate, that we COULD have progressed from there, with the points tally and gap to 4th getting better each year.
-
Disagree, John.
Ultimately the whole thing was built on foundations of sand. I reckon O'Neill knew what was coming, hence his rapid exit.
Had he finished fourth, it wouldn't have made much difference. His 1980s brand of football would have been found out very quickly. Rapid Vienna managed to handle it with ease. God knows what a half decent European side would have done to us.
It would have been a sharp exit with a gigantic price tag.
-
We didn't though, did we, Concrete John.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
There was both, which is what caused great debate on here.
-
Riss: 'we're only joshing with you'!
I suspected as much. I've read so much ridiculous bollocks on the last few pages, I couldn't believe it was serious.
Percy, we live with a club that has twats running it. And those twats have to be criticised by supporters like us. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Risso? I have a greater responsibility as a villa supporter than you can possibly fathom. You weep for O'Neill and you curse the Miserablists. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that O'Neill's departure, while tragic, probably saved the club in the long run. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is important to the club...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that message board. You need me moaning my head off in the pub.
We use words like support, season tickets, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent supporting this club. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the finely tuned aggression I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a dog turd and arrange to have it put through Martin O'Neill's letterbox. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
-
Disagree, John.
Ultimately the whole thing was built on foundations of sand. I reckon O'Neill knew what was coming, hence his rapid exit.
Had he finished fourth, it wouldn't have made much difference. His 1980s brand of football would have been found out very quickly. Rapid Vienna managed to handle it with ease. God knows what a half decent European side would have done to us.
It would have been a sharp exit with a gigantic price tag.
If we had finished 4th it would have justified the spend, if not how it was spent, and enabled us to continue to build. So I think it would have made a difference.
I think footballing wise there were some sound foundations in as far as we had the defence right, great away tactics and our key players were all quite young. Where it was more wobbly was financially. What MON could not/did not do was build on what he had created and address the finances.
-
Riss: 'we're only joshing with you'!
I suspected as much. I've read so much ridiculous bollocks on the last few pages, I couldn't believe it was serious.
Percy, we live with a club that has twats running it. And those twats have to be criticised by supporters like us. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Risso? I have a greater responsibility as a villa supporter than you can possibly fathom. You weep for O'Neill and you curse the Miserablists. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that O'Neill's departure, while tragic, probably saved the club in the long run. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is important to the club...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that message board. You need me moaning my head off in the pub.
We use words like support, season tickets, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent supporting this club. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the finely tuned aggression I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a dog turd and arrange to have it put through Martin O'Neill's letterbox. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
So the miserablists modelled themselves on a self absorbed mad man who should be in jail?
-
Disagree, John.
Ultimately the whole thing was built on foundations of sand. I reckon O'Neill knew what was coming, hence his rapid exit.
Had he finished fourth, it wouldn't have made much difference. His 1980s brand of football would have been found out very quickly. Rapid Vienna managed to handle it with ease. God knows what a half decent European side would have done to us.
It would have been a sharp exit with a gigantic price tag.
If we had finished 4th it would have justified the spend, if not how it was spent, and enabled us to continue to build. So I think it would have made a difference.
I think footballing wise there were some sound foundations in as far as we had the defence right, great away tactics and our key players were all quite young. Where it was more wobbly was financially. What MON could not/did not do was build on what he had created and address the finances.
It wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever if we'd got knocked out in the qualification match (as we did in the EL in his last season).
-
Riss: 'we're only joshing with you'!
I suspected as much. I've read so much ridiculous bollocks on the last few pages, I couldn't believe it was serious.
Percy, we live with a club that has twats running it. And those twats have to be criticised by supporters like us. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Risso? I have a greater responsibility as a villa supporter than you can possibly fathom. You weep for O'Neill and you curse the Miserablists. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that O'Neill's departure, while tragic, probably saved the club in the long run. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is important to the club...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that message board. You need me moaning my head off in the pub.
We use words like support, season tickets, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent supporting this club. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the finely tuned aggression I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a dog turd and arrange to have it put through Martin O'Neill's letterbox. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
I don't understand a word of this, I'm probably being dumb and missing some in jokes but what does it mean
-
-
The thing with those late 90s finishes was we were in a general slow decline from the high of Sir Brian's first full season until it went really wrong under Sir Graham MKII. With MON's three 6th places there was a feeling, which obviously caused great debate, that we COULD have progressed from there, with the points tally and gap to 4th getting better each year.
09/10 was the tipping point. It was downhill from there even if MON had stayed that season I reckon.
-
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
Thats what happens with fanatics, they can never accept that they got it wrong.
The only facts are the results, everything else is conjecture, speculation and opinion.
So you'd better admit to having got that wrong hawkeye, or it makes you a fanatic.
Oh dear, what about these facts
Marlon Harewoood
Habib Beye
Emile Heskey
Steve Sidwell
Zat Knight
Selling Cahill
The wage bill
Walking out on us 5 days before the seson started.
Grief is a terrible thing.
-
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
It is funny to see Sunderland fans say "I still have faith in him" - "I still have confidence in him" even after reading about all his faults - fully detailed and essayed for them on their forums by learned viila contributors.
It is also curious that how many villa still hold a candle for the man despite now being in full possession of the facts.
A true enigma.
Thats what happens with fanatics, they can never accept that they got it wrong.
The only facts are the results, everything else is conjecture, speculation and opinion.
So you'd better admit to having got that wrong hawkeye, or it makes you a fanatic.
Oh dear, what about these facts
Marlon Harewoood
Habib Beye
Emile Heskey
Steve Sidwell
Zat Knight
Selling Cahill
The wage bill
Walking out on us 5 days before the seson started.
Grief is a terrible thing.
They are not facts. That is a list of players you have a low opinion of, one you have a high opinion of, a sum of money which in your opinion was unjustified, and two things that are completely irrelevant to what anybody thought when he was our manager, which is what we were discussing.
BTW, I didn't feel a moments grief over his departure - I save that for more deserving cases than multi-millionaires who flit from one fantastically well-paid to another, and I think it is pathetic of you to suggest I did. Pathetic, but coming from you, unsurprising.
-
In fairness, grief is a terrible thing.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
I don't remember having that feeling.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
I don't remember having that feeling.
TonyD had it, but he also used to say we were crap and would get beat every week, so we used to ignore him.
-
In fairness, grief is a terrible thing.
Yes, but it's irrelevant to this debate.
-
In fairness, grief is a terrible thing.
Yes, but it's irrelevant to this debate.
Yes, I know, i was just being flippant.
-
Wow Percy, if its not grief why are you so upset? Why are you making it so personal?
Maybe its not grief, maybe you feel like a blushing bride spurned at the alter.
-
Wow Percy, if its not grief why are you so upset? Why are you making it so personal?
Maybe its not grief, maybe you feel like a blushing bride spurned at the alter.
I'm not upset. I do find it slightly annoying when idiots start going on about 'Monettes', 'holding a candle' and 'fanatics', when the truth is they just had a different opinion on whether he was a good manager or not. It would be nice to just debate that without fuckwits talking bollocks like that.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
I don't remember having that feeling.
TonyD had it, but he also used to say we were crap and would get beat every week, so we used to ignore him.
I was one of the early few that pointed out all his faults and said that we would never win anything under him. I stood by my convictions despite the abuse I got because I could see that the club was wasting the opportunity of a generation with the wasting of the new RL money. I never said we would get beat every week, I just kept pointing out the limited ability of the manager. I had a right to do that.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
I don't remember having that feeling.
TonyD had it, but he also used to say we were crap and would get beat every week, so we used to ignore him.
I was one of the early few that pointed out all his faults and said that we would never win anything under him. I stood by my convictions despite the abuse I got because I could see that the club was wasting the opportunity of a generation with the wasting of the new RL money. I never said we would get beat every week, I just kept pointing out the limited ability of the manager. I had a right to do that.
Maybe, but if you're gonna bullshit about what I said, I have the right to respond in kind.
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
I don't remember having that feeling.
TonyD had it, but he also used to say we were crap and would get beat every week, so we used to ignore him.
I was one of the early few that pointed out all his faults and said that we would never win anything under him. I stood by my convictions despite the abuse I got because I could see that the club was wasting the opportunity of a generation with the wasting of the new RL money. I never said we would get beat every week, I just kept pointing out the limited ability of the manager. I had a right to do that.
Maybe, but if you're gonna bullshit about what I said, I have the right to respond in kind.
What did I bullshit about?
-
There was a feeling we COULD NOT progress any further.
I don't remember having that feeling.
TonyD had it, but he also used to say we were crap and would get beat every week, so we used to ignore him.
I was one of the early few that pointed out all his faults and said that we would never win anything under him. I stood by my convictions despite the abuse I got because I could see that the club was wasting the opportunity of a generation with the wasting of the new RL money. I never said we would get beat every week, I just kept pointing out the limited ability of the manager. I had a right to do that.
Maybe, but if you're gonna bullshit about what I said, I have the right to respond in kind.
What did I bullshit about?
Holding a candle for him, calling him the Messiah, saying people worshipped him, saying I'd follow him into a burning building, worshipping at the Altar of the Blessed St Martin, all that kind of crap you used to come out with.
We had differing opinions on his abilities, that's all. There was no need to type all that shite, and no need for the silly insulting nick-names, like Monettes. It killed the debates and turned them into slanging matches, but maybe that's what you wanted to do.
-
Keep it civil and play nicely please gents.
-
Oh dear, what about these facts
Marlon Harewoood
Habib Beye
Emile Heskey
Steve Sidwell
Zat Knight
Selling Cahill
The wage bill
Walking out on us 5 days before the seson started.
I'd have forgiven him all of the above if the football had been worth watching, even progressing. Fact is, it got worse. He knew his limitations and jumped before he was pushed.
-
For some reason 'Selling Cahill' hurts the most out of the list quoted above. Look at how he's done since and there's no doubt he would have been a bonafide Villa legend (not just a cult legend for the goal against the Scum)
-
I'm not sure why everyone's picking on Percy all of a sudden. Plenty of people were convinced that O'Neill knew what he was doing. And enjoyed the feeling that we could win any game we played. I was one of them.
-
For some reason 'Selling Cahill' hurts the most out of the list quoted above. Look at how he's done since and there's no doubt he would have been a bonafide Villa legend (not just a cult legend for the goal against the Scum)
Wasn't Cahill being sold more of a timing thing though? At the time he was entering the final year of his contract and we had better centre halves at the club. Cahill wanted first team football and wasn't getting it at Villa Park so it was either sell him or lose him for what would have been a tribunal fee a year later. That could have happened to any manager and is a handy stick to beat MoN with. Fact is we sold him to Bolton, at the time that was his level and it took two/three seasons before the likes of Chelsea were showing interest. It's fair to highlight the signings of the likes of Heskey,Harewood,Beye and Shorey as poor managerial judgement but I don't think the Cahill sale was down to MoN not rating the player.
-
[
So you'd better admit to having got that wrong hawkeye, or it makes you a fanatic.
[/quote]Oh dear, what about these facts
Marlon Harewoood
Habib Beye
Emile Heskey
Steve Sidwell
Zat Knight
Selling Cahill
The wage bill
Walking out on us 5 days before the seson started.
Grief is a terrible thing.
[/quote]
Looking at that list objectively my opinion is:
Harewood,Beye and Heskey were poor signings, baffling at the time.
Sidwell for £5m was viewed as good business at the time by the majority of us. He didn't succeed so it turned into a bad signing.
Knight was bought as a squad player, did ok and was sold for pretty much what we paid if not a bit more.
The Cahill sale, well i've covered that above, for me that was just timing.
As for the wage bill. Was O'Neill in sole control of the club's finances? If so then that is bad business and renders the board redundant. Sure he has to shoulder some of the blame for the huge wages paid to the likes of Beye but someone sanctioned those contracts.
-
On the guidance of someone who was supposed to know better.....
-
On the guidance of someone who was supposed to know better.....
Guidance is one thing, but come on that's blaming for blames sake.
-
I think if I took over a business I would go with the advice of someone who was supposed to be one of the 'best in the game'.
I wonder if Lerner really knew who he was getting in with when he purchased the club?
Didn't MON come with Doug's recommendation at the time?
-
I think if I took over a business I would go with the advice of someone who was supposed to be one of the 'best in the game'.
I wonder if Lerner really knew who he was getting in with when he purchased the club?
Didn't MON come with Doug's recommendation at the time?
I like the idea that we can still pin the root of our ills on Doug.
The shadowy hand, as gregnash might say.
-
I think if I took over a business I would go with the advice of someone who was supposed to be one of the 'best in the game'.
I wonder if Lerner really knew who he was getting in with when he purchased the club?
Didn't MON come with Doug's recommendation at the time?
Taking advice is one thing, but I a mere working class bloke wouldn't simply take one man's word when it came to handing out £50k a week contracts. Would you?
-
Doug, the Media and those in the know would have all said great bloke...should have been England manager...you're lucky to get him oh and a lot of us thought 'Top Man' too.
Now if RL had taken a closer interest we might have said 'What's he know about football?.Stop meddling and let the bloke get on with it , he knows what he's doing.'
Hindsight is a wonderful thing for sure, just wish it had been around earlier.
-
I'm not sure why everyone's picking on Percy all of a sudden. Plenty of people were convinced that O'Neill knew what he was doing. And enjoyed the feeling that we could win any game we played. I was one of them.
At the end of the 09/10 season I was getting impatient with MON's failure to rotate the squad resulting in our weakness from March onwards, but at the same time I noted that our league points total was still improving year on year, as was our performance in the cup competitions. So to claim there was some sort of general 'feeling' that no more progress was going to be made is untrue as far as I'm concerned.
Then he walked out on us 5 days before the season began and the true damage inflicted by the wage bill was revealed.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Lerner did (one hopes), and he'd let it get so bad and go on for so long, that the need to claw back so much, so quickly, very nearly got us relegated.
Letting things get that dangerously bad was not a good idea.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Lerner did (one hopes), and he'd let it get so bad and go on for so long, that the need to claw back so much, so quickly, very nearly got us relegated.
Letting things get that dangerously bad was not a good idea.
Which is why I believe that was mismanagement of the club at boardroom level rather than simply just the manager overspending.
-
well it took me all morning to go through the 12 pages of this very good thread. I was and still am a fan of MoN, but could at the time recognise the faults of MON at VP. I wish he'd stayed, but I also wish we had a stronger Lerner in control. now after the MoN time came to an end, i think we will have greater financial stability from the boardroom.
b
Glad he's doing shit at sland as i hate the makams team ever since a bald headed forward for sland hit me with a wayward shot in the late 70's. bastard but i did get kudos at school the next day, as my face still had the panel marks
-
Glad he's doing shit at sland as i hate the makams team ever since a bald headed forward for sland hit me with a wayward shot in the late 70's. bastard but i did get kudos at school the next day, as my face still had the panel marks
;D Class
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
-
well it took me all morning to go through the 12 pages of this very good thread. I was and still am a fan of MoN, but could at the time recognise the faults of MON at VP. I wish he'd stayed, but I also wish we had a stronger Lerner in control. now after the MoN time came to an end, i think we will have greater financial stability from the boardroom.
b
Glad he's doing shit at sland as i hate the makams team ever since a bald headed forward for sland hit me with a wayward shot in the late 70's. bastard but i did get kudos at school the next day, as my face still had the panel marks
Brian 'Pop' Robson?
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
Yep there were many comments along those lines. The problem is the modern fan sees the transfer fee which is not the overall outlay.
E.g Cuellar, Heskey and Beye cost us £40m for a combined total of 10.5 seasons with if we are being kind probably less than 30 good games between them.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
Indeed, I thought that myself. Everything that went wrong stemmed from Laursen and Bouma getting such terrible injuries. Look how much we spent on replacements, and not one of them was in the same class.
-
I also remember loads of posts at that time applauding how the club was going about things 'the right way', i.e. by not forking out massive sums for marquee signings.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
In the early days, I think we saw the words "billionaire owner" and thought we were going to do a Chelsea.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
In the early days, I think we saw the words "billionaire owner" and thought we were going to do a Chelsea.
There was a lot of us like that. When we realised we weren't we joined together condemning the manner in which Chelsea then Citeh bought their titles.
-
Those first couple of years I remember waiting for the superstar signings to start arriving. I was very naive back then.
-
Those first couple of years I remember waiting for the superstar signings to start arriving. I was very naive back then.
The scales began to fall from our eyes when we got a Marlon Harewood shaped wake up call.
-
I remember the U.S.A chants ringing around the Emirates in O'Neill's first game.
Still up there with my alltime favourite Villa games. New owner, new gaffer, new kit, new dawn .
And Mellberg scoring the first ever goal scored at the new Arsenal ground.
Fantastic.
In fact, "terrific"
-
I wasn't at the Arsenal match but the following two home games against Reading and Newcastle I remember well - a draw and two wins in our first 3 matches under the new regime, and we hadn't even signed anyone of note yet.
-
That probably has as much to do with having to put-up with all the Gooners you have to work with though.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
Yep there were many comments along those lines. The problem is the modern fan sees the transfer fee which is not the overall outlay.
E.g Cuellar, Heskey and Beye cost us £40m for a combined total of 10.5 seasons with if we are being kind probably less than 30 good games between them.
And 28 of those were by cuellar!
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
Yep there were many comments along those lines. The problem is the modern fan sees the transfer fee which is not the overall outlay.
E.g Cuellar, Heskey and Beye cost us £40m for a combined total of 10.5 seasons with if we are being kind probably less than 30 good games between them.
And 28 of those were by cuellar!
I don't remember Cuellar having 28 good games.
-
[
So you'd better admit to having got that wrong hawkeye, or it makes you a fanatic.
Oh dear, what about these facts
Marlon Harewoood
Habib Beye
Emile Heskey
Steve Sidwell
Zat Knight
Selling Cahill
The wage bill
Walking out on us 5 days before the seson started.
Grief is a terrible thing.
[/quote]
Looking at that list objectively my opinion is:
Harewood,Beye and Heskey were poor signings, baffling at the time.
Sidwell for £5m was viewed as good business at the time by the majority of us. He didn't succeed so it turned into a bad signing.
Knight was bought as a squad player, did ok and was sold for pretty much what we paid if not a bit more.
The Cahill sale, well i've covered that above, for me that was just timing.
As for the wage bill. Was O'Neill in sole control of the club's finances? If so then that is bad business and renders the board redundant. Sure he has to shoulder some of the blame for the huge wages paid to the likes of Beye but someone sanctioned those contracts.
[/quote]
Curtis Davies
Nicky Shorey
The list just goes on. And on top of that even the not too bad players cost a fortune. What did we pay for Luke Young, Warnock, Delph, Reo Coker. I bet Mrs O doesn't let him do the shopping.
-
All managers buy stinkers, it happens.
The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.
-
My biggest gripe about MON's transfers were always the volume of expensive players he brought in who were then very quickly dropped to the bench, or completely out of the squad.
It was as if he wasn't sure about a player, bought them anyway, then had a proper look at them and decided he didn't like them.
-
The signing of Shorey is a compelling case in point. Bouma picks up a bad injury so we need a new left back.
MON isn't sure about Shorey as he thinks he is too slow. But, owing to his lack of scouting network and unimaginative transfer policy, can't think of a single player that is better so signs him anyway and on very good money.
Then drops him like a stone very quickly after.
-
Had he left at a reasonable point ie after the last game of the previous season it would have been a case of 'thanks for some good times, time to move on' for me but his legacy sinks on that gutless, spiteful act of leaving 5 days before kick off in what will always appear to be an act calculated to cause the maximum damage. Any respect I had for him went that day....and to quote him I prefer to 're-write history' as it suits me to use hindsight and despise him jilting our football club, showing a contemptable level of respect to you and me when it needed him to step up and prove himself.
He had the opportunity to put himself up there with the Saunders / Bartons / Sir Graham's but he is nothing but a pretender, scarcely above that gutter where O'Leary and McNeill reside, languishing below McLeish even.
IMHO.
-
All managers buy stinkers, it happens.
The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.
Panic-buying would be the way I'd describe a fair chunk of his signings. Not all, certainly, but quite a few.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
Very true indeed.
-
I sort of admire a manager who realises his signings haven't worked and, in essence, admits a mistake by not playing them. I think it's probably preferable to those managers who pick their own signings week after week just because they signed them. I just wish, having made his mind up, he'd have got rid of them quicker. Look how many ended up going on frees.
-
We felt like a big club though, we were buying quality young English players, we had 5/6 players in each England squad, our front 6 of Young Milner Petrov Downing Carew and Gabby was probably the best we'd had for 20 years. Warnock, Collins, Dunne etc look like bad buys now, but look what M'ON got out of them, they were fantastic in their first yr, Warnock edged Baines out of the England squad and Dunne's form meant that losing Laursen wasn't the end of the world it could have been.
-
True.
-
All managers buy stinkers, it happens.
The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.
Panic-buying would be the way I'd describe a fair chunk of his signings. Not all, certainly, but quite a few.
I wouldn't say panic buying, it was that he fell into the trap of so many safe purchases. There were so few signings where the 'premier league experience' wasn't a key requirement. Carew maybe but seeing as that was a swap suggested by Houllier not the other way round you left with no one except maybe Guzan who signed from outside the UK and got any meaningful game time for him.
We weren't a big enough draw to get the very best players in the league though, so we ended up signing a lot of player who were above average in mid-table or bottom-half sides, and paying a premium in fees for them. Add on the strange approach to wage negotiations and you're looking at, for all the money spent, only a small number who were ever going to go for a profit (Young, Milner, Downing and not many others). That's the short-term thinking I have a problem with. I don't know if things would have turned out differently if he hadn't left, I doubt we'd have dropped as far as we did but, looking back, I don't see what he was going to do once the players started to run down contracts and walk away. I'm fairly sure him leaving was that he saw the same lack of a long-term solution and didn't see how he could keep up the top 6 finishes so he ran whilst his stock was high.
-
Something else worthy of note is that whilst it is true, there was hardly a clamour from here to stop signing players and do something about the wage bill, we didn't know what the overall picture was.
Does anyone remember those first two years or so when we were desperate for him to spend money?
The accusation then was that he was being too cautious and treating the money as if it were his own.
In the early days, I think we saw the words "billionaire owner" and thought we were going to do a Chelsea.
To be fair the club seemed to be encouraging a certain level of expectation at the time with all that talk of IMG's influence with top players and sponsors etc. I at least anticipated a couple of reasonably big names would come in during the first proper window, maybe a few up and coming players from abroad. Then after initial promise when he signed Young and Carew, he pulled Harewood out of the bag. Wow. Followed by other less than inspiring signings. My disappointment would only have been heightened had I know at the time how much he'd agreed to pay this level of player. The road to the top 4 was never going to be paved with players like that. And thanks to MON and RL we can no longer afford the ones who might get us there.
-
whoa, its thanks to RL that we can afford to buy anyone at all. Im not saying (far from it) that he has spent his money wisely each time, but it is his money, you can argue about our revenue covering some, but we have lost money and lost money alone for three years. And he is paying for that. Until we or someone else steps in, I think its tough to blame him for how he spends his money. As for the legend, I have to admit i was a happy clapper. I liked getting to cup semi and finals and languishing in the top six year after year. I loved the highpoint of when Milner, Young and Downing all were on form at the same time for a coupld of matches, and nobody could get near them. I enjoyed a string of clean sheets. But, we could be bloody boring, you can call it grinding out a result, but sometimes it was painful. And some signings were terrible. The fact that we had pages of wittering about the value of Reo-coker who is a merely average squad player tells me how far our expectations had fallen. And i fell into the trap of thinking he was prudent with his signings when in the cold light of day you look back at value for money and wages. Not a legend for me, more like an expensive night out on champagne, all of a sudden you feel brilliant, and cant see from the outside that you are not as good with the ladies or at dancing as you think you are, because you are having such a good time. Then next morning mr champagne has fucked off leaving you rough as shit and with a stinking big bar bill
-
A fair asessment.
-
Leave aside that GH was a failure, but he was right in his assessment that the way forward was to dismantle the squad and start anew -- and not to build on what MON left behind.
-
Fair enough, but he should have been more pragmatic and timed it better. From the outside, it looked like the players knew they had no future at the club months before he could get rid of them or get replacements.
-
All managers buy stinkers, it happens.
The difference with MON, though, was that the policy seemed so scattergun and ill thought-out, that it was all ultimately very short term.
Panic-buying would be the way I'd describe a fair chunk of his signings. Not all, certainly, but quite a few.
I wouldn't say panic buying, it was that he fell into the trap of so many safe purchases. There were so few signings where the 'premier league experience' wasn't a key requirement. Carew maybe but seeing as that was a swap suggested by Houllier not the other way round you left with no one except maybe Guzan who signed from outside the UK and got any meaningful game time for him.
We weren't a big enough draw to get the very best players in the league though, so we ended up signing a lot of player who were above average in mid-table or bottom-half sides, and paying a premium in fees for them. Add on the strange approach to wage negotiations and you're looking at, for all the money spent, only a small number who were ever going to go for a profit (Young, Milner, Downing and not many others). That's the short-term thinking I have a problem with. I don't know if things would have turned out differently if he hadn't left, I doubt we'd have dropped as far as we did but, looking back, I don't see what he was going to do once the players started to run down contracts and walk away. I'm fairly sure him leaving was that he saw the same lack of a long-term solution and didn't see how he could keep up the top 6 finishes so he ran whilst his stock was high.
Safe buys is right, he wouldn't even take small risks, he could have had L Young from Charlton for £2.5mill but he waited for him to have another good season at M'boro then signed him for £6mill. There was little risk in signing him, Friedel, NRC etc., but it would have been nice to take a chance on someone lesser known. Although whilst there was money there to buy players it wasn't endless and he had to get the right players, we couldn't just go out and buy another player in that position like Man City can now. It took about 2 years to get a right back, we had only A Young as a winger on the books for one season before Milner then Downing arrived, I remember NRC haing to play right mid/wing quite a bit one year, and even towards the end of his tenure, whilst we had a strong 1st 11 we only had Sidwell and Heskey on the books as senior options for the front 6 positions, which may be one reason he didn't make many early subs (although that was still annoying).
-
I'm not really sure stepping away from Luke Young so he could have another decent season at Boro at the expense of him costing 3.5m more is an indicator of a well thought out transfer policy.
You're right, it was safe, but it was also nuts and extremely expensive.
-
whoa, its thanks to RL that we can afford to buy anyone at all. Im not saying (far from it) that he has spent his money wisely each time, but it is his money, you can argue about our revenue covering some, but we have lost money and lost money alone for three years. And he is paying for that. Until we or someone else steps in, I think its tough to blame him for how he spends his money. As for the legend, I have to admit i was a happy clapper. I liked getting to cup semi and finals and languishing in the top six year after year. I loved the highpoint of when Milner, Young and Downing all were on form at the same time for a coupld of matches, and nobody could get near them. I enjoyed a string of clean sheets. But, we could be bloody boring, you can call it grinding out a result, but sometimes it was painful. And some signings were terrible. The fact that we had pages of wittering about the value of Reo-coker who is a merely average squad player tells me how far our expectations had fallen. And i fell into the trap of thinking he was prudent with his signings when in the cold light of day you look back at value for money and wages. Not a legend for me, more like an expensive night out on champagne, all of a sudden you feel brilliant, and cant see from the outside that you are not as good with the ladies or at dancing as you think you are, because you are having such a good time. Then next morning mr champagne has fucked off leaving you rough as shit and with a stinking big bar bill
As I understand it the money Lerner's put in is largely only loaned to Villa. I don't think he should escape his share of the criticism as a so-called businessman for allowing the wages to get to the unsustainable level compared to turnover that O'Neill was allowed to take them to.
-
You're right it wasn't as positive as safe, more over cautious, I wouldn't say nuts though, at the time I can't say i was unhappy with any of his signings except Harewood and Heskey, albeit some turned out worse than expected under M'ON, Sidwell, Davies etc., and others performed well for him but not subsequent managers, Dunne, Collins , Warnock. But really signing A Young, Davies, Milner, Delph etc. was exciting, mixed in with the likes of Cuellar, Carew, Friedel we seemed to be signing a good blend of experienced players and young talent, a few real coups for the club, albeit it was costing serious money.
-
Even though we made decent profits on them, Downing, Milner and Young were all seen as over-priced at the time by every other interested party. Fair play to MON in trusting his own judgement to improve them but if Randy gets pelters for all the shite he sanctioned (wages moreso than transfer fees) he deserves a bit of credit for ponying up 10m plus for each of those three players that most other owners and managers would have seen as costing far too much.
Didn't Keegan say of Milner's sale to us that the money was far too good to turn down? A pity O'Neill's last expensive young English lad, Delph, doesn't look like he'll emulate the others.
-
Even though we made decent profits on them, Downing, Milner and Young were all seen as over-priced at the time by every other interested party. Fair play to MON in trusting his own judgement to improve them but if Randy gets pelters for all the shite he sanctioned (wages moreso than transfer fees) he deserves a bit of credit for ponying up 10m plus for each of those three players that most other owners and managers would have seen as costing far too much.
Didn't Keegan say of Milner's sale to us that the money was far too good to turn down? A pity O'Neill's last expensive young English lad, Delph, doesn't look like he'll emulate the others.
It's telling that Delph is the only one still here.
-
Even though we made decent profits on them, Downing, Milner and Young were all seen as over-priced at the time by every other interested party. Fair play to MON in trusting his own judgement to improve them but if Randy gets pelters for all the shite he sanctioned (wages moreso than transfer fees) he deserves a bit of credit for ponying up 10m plus for each of those three players that most other owners and managers would have seen as costing far too much.
Didn't Keegan say of Milner's sale to us that the money was far too good to turn down? A pity O'Neill's last expensive young English lad, Delph, doesn't look like he'll emulate the others.
It's telling that Delph is the only one still here.
Indeed.
And he's shit.
-
We've got to deal in facts and the league position is a clear measure of a teams standing. We haven't looked like finishing 6th since he left.
-
True,
Since he's left our transfer dealings have been roughly as follows
Out
Milner 26m
Downing 20m
A Young 17m
Collins 2m
Beye free
Friedel free
Cuellar free
NRC free
Heskey free
(Probably a few others I've forgotten for free or a mill or 2 here and there, maybe Gardenr and Sidwell)
Total 65-70m ish
In
Bent 24m
N'Zogbia 9.5M
Ireland 8m
Benteke 7m
Makoun 6m
Vlaar 3.5m
Given 3.5m
Hutton 3m
Lowton 2.5m
Westwood 2m
Bennett 2m
KEA 2M
Bowery 0.5m
Stevens free
Holman free
Total 70-75m ish
So we have roughly broke even, maybe a small net spend, you usually need to invest to maintain or improve your league placing imo, but such a drop in league placings(6th-17th) and the quality of our squad (looks nothing like as good as 3 years ago especially the 1st 11) is surely just as much down to the signings of our last 3 managers as it is M'ONs signings of 4/5 years ago?
-
It's more to do with the unrealistic ally high wages MON put very average players on.
Perce, serious question, how much of your emotions surrounding O'Neill are mixed in with your book? I.E. it will be pretty difficult to shift copies today and it has a feel of 'of the time' about it, a lot of which was to do with O'Neill. Does your pride of your tome become inextricably linked with pride of who our manager was?
-
I thought the Milner deal was £16m plus Ireland?
-
What were the conditions on the Bent fee rising to £24 million?
-
Dead to rise from their graves, Jesus Christ to return, Villa fans to stop moaning
-
Dead to rise from their graves, Jesus Christ to return, Villa fans to stop moaning
Two out of three aint bad
-
Dead to rise from their graves, Jesus Christ to return, Villa fans to stop moaning
And, sorry to moan but didn't Enda cost us £240,000?
;)
-
But the wage bill must be down, surely?
-
I'm sure the wage bill is down, but the board have let M'ONs successors sign Given, Makoun, Ireland, N'Zogbia, Hutton, Jenas, Vlaar, Bent etc. who will have all been on big wages and some on long contracts, so I don't agree they have suddenly tried to costs so dramatically it has seen us flirt with relegation. The stop on net spend and the reduction on wages could have still seen us comfortably in mid table over the past 3 years imo if the signings the last 3 managers had made gave us anything like value for money, or say if Pardew was in charge and had signed us the players he has signed for the Toon. Hutton, ireland, N'Zog etc have just all been such massive failures and losing Petrov was unfortunate of course. I think the blame for our demise lies partially with each of M'ON, GH, TSM and Lerner/Faulkner and PL, less so with the latter given it's sill way too early to judge. I dont think any one element is massively more so to blame than any other really.
-
Pete: there are really no emotions involved when it comes to my views of MON's time, I'm just trying to counter the impression given by some that it was the worst four years in our history. I didn't like him or dislike him - I didn't know him at all. And it's nothing to do with my book - thanks for remembering what was in it!
-
I'm sure the wage bill is down, but the board have let M'ONs successors sign Given, Makoun, Ireland, N'Zogbia, Hutton, Jenas, Vlaar, Bent etc. who will have all been on big wages and some on long contracts, so I don't agree they have suddenly tried to costs so dramatically it has seen us flirt with relegation. The stop on net spend and the reduction on wages could have still seen us comfortably in mid table over the past 3 years imo if the signings the last 3 managers had made gave us anything like value for money, or say if Pardew was in charge and had signed us the players he has signed for the Toon. Hutton, ireland, N'Zog etc have just all been such massive failures and losing Petrov was unfortunate of course. I think the blame for our demise lies partially with each of M'ON, GH, TSM and Lerner/Faulkner and PL, less so with the latter given it's sill way too early to judge. I dont think any one element is massively more so to blame than any other really.
Well said
-
Pete: there are really no emotions involved when it comes to my views of MON's time, I'm just trying to counter the impression given by some that it was the worst four years in our history.
You're guilty of the sort of hyperbole there that you gets you so wound up when you accuse other people of it.
-
Anybody else get the sense it has been a week of healing for villa fans? Have we finally drawn a line over that particular episode and can now move on appreciative of the good memories but aware of the mistakes that were made and that himself wasn't all he was cracke dup to be?
It feels to me as though the victory at Sunderland could end up being a lot more significant than the three points earned.
It has struck me that in 2006 we all thought an Aston Villa dynasty would be establsihed. We now had billions and a top manager and we would be the next Chelsea. Because we made mistakes and because Man City came along we have missed that opportunity. I think a lot us (myself included) had been quite bitter that it didn't work out the way we had planned. I for one thought we'd be a top four club by now with regular Champions League outings. I think there has been a real dismay over the past few years that we are still losing our best players and were never able to complet the jigsaw.
However, that disappointment is no subsiding and judging by some of the comments here, our expectations are probably more realistic now. If we can mug teams for silly money for our better players and re-invest it wisely then bring it on. In the medium term, top eight is probably about our level and if we can establish ourselves there who knows what we can go on to long-term.
-
Riss: some of the posts do give the impression that it was a lot shitter than it really was IMO.
-
Riss: some of the posts do give the impression that it was a lot shitter than it really was IMO.
Sorry perce, I agree with quite a lot of what you post [edit: just not on MON *winky thing*], but I'm not letting you away with that one. There are certainly those on here who don't believe he's a great manager, but I can't remember one single post that would even come close to suggesting it was "the worst four years in our history".
Plenty were left frustrated that he couldn't capitalise on the greatest level of support any villa manager has ever received (or questioned his tactical astuteness), but that's worlds apart from what you're suggesting.
-
Fair enough about the 'worst four years' thing, but I'll stand by my assertion that some posts give the impression that it was worse than it was. I, on the whole, enjoyed it. I'm talking about at the time, not what's happened since and the financial fall-out from it which colours our judgement.
-
A section of fans pointing out that O'Neill wasn't as good as we'd hoped, or good enough to achieve top 4, hardly equates to calling it the worst 4 years in our history. He wasn't all bad by any stretch, the results prove that. But he did have some fairly obvious flaws and was a massive disappointment compared to what I'd hoped we'd get.
-
Fair enough about the 'worst four years' thing, but I'll stand by my assertion that some posts give the impression that it was worse than it was. I, on the whole, enjoyed it. I'm talking about at the time, not what's happened since and the financial fall-out from it which colours our judgement.
That's fair enough, but for me, and quite a few others I suspect, the two are inter-linked. I think it's been mentioned before, but Portsmouth is a good example of how previous performance (and the assicuated spending to get there) resulted in a whole world of pain in the future. I doubt many Portsmouth fans take a huge amount of comfort in their FA Cup win now.
-
A section of fans pointing out that O'Neill wasn't as good as we'd hoped, or good enough to achieve top 4, hardly equates to calling it the worst 4 years in our history. He wasn't all bad by any stretch, the results prove that. But he did have some fairly obvious flaws and was a massive disappointment compared to what I'd hoped we'd get.
Fair enough about the 'worst four years' thing, but I'll stand by my assertion that some posts give the impression that it was worse than it was. I, on the whole, enjoyed it. I'm talking about at the time, not what's happened since and the financial fall-out from it which colours our judgement.
That's how I see it as well. Anyway, it's in the past now and that's where it should be left.
-
I also enjoyed it, but I knew deep down that it would be short lived and it was an era we couldn't sustain. I also thought that MON would always walk out on us. There was way too many limitations to his style.
-
well without trying to sound all i told you so but I wanted him sacked the season before he left. So, i told you so.
-
As I say, I enjoyed his time here, and a part of that was choosing to enjoy, and not getting dragged down by the minutiae of what was wrong. I had no choice but to be miserable under DOL, Houllier and TSM, so I'm glad I had that break, unlike some of you, who are now hopefully emerging from 7 years of unrelenting misery.
Now this is not me bigging up MON, but I don't see how sacking him earlier would have helped. Things haven't gone altogether swimmingly since he left have they?
-
Riss: some of the posts do give the impression that it was a lot shitter than it really was IMO.
One other thing from that period was they way some latched onto Carlos at RB as a major problem. We could lose 2-0, with both goals coming down our left flank, and the post match thread would be full of posts blaming it on a CB playing RB!?!?!?!?
-
That was indicative of the two ways people looked at things.
One lot of us saw (Chelsea hammering apart when Luke Young played) the meanest defence in the country.
One lot of us saw a defence that could have been a bit better going forward.
Being a purist, I preferred Young there, but I could see the logic of Carlos.
Nowhere near as much as the abandonment of zonal marking, but the ditching of centre-halves at right-back contributed in part to us going from the best in the league at defending set-pieces, to the worst in the league.
-
Fair enough about the 'worst four years' thing, but I'll stand by my assertion that some posts give the impression that it was worse than it was. I, on the whole, enjoyed it. I'm talking about at the time, not what's happened since and the financial fall-out from it which colours our judgement.
That's fair enough, but for me, and quite a few others I suspect, the two are inter-linked. I think it's been mentioned before, but Portsmouth is a good example of how previous performance (and the assicuated spending to get there) resulted in a whole world of pain in the future. I doubt many Portsmouth fans take a huge amount of comfort in their FA Cup win now.
I disagree with them not taking comfort in their cup win , for a lot of Pompey fans and I dare say blues fans too their cup final wins would have been the greatest day imagineable and a day they will treasure the rest of their life.
Yes they have hit hard times now but the day they won at Wembley they will always remember.
-
Fair enough about the 'worst four years' thing, but I'll stand by my assertion that some posts give the impression that it was worse than it was. I, on the whole, enjoyed it. I'm talking about at the time, not what's happened since and the financial fall-out from it which colours our judgement.
That's fair enough, but for me, and quite a few others I suspect, the two are inter-linked. I think it's been mentioned before, but Portsmouth is a good example of how previous performance (and the assicuated spending to get there) resulted in a whole world of pain in the future. I doubt many Portsmouth fans take a huge amount of comfort in their FA Cup win now.
I disagree with them not taking comfort in their cup win , for a lot of Pompey fans and I dare say blues fans too their cup final wins would have been the greatest day imagineable and a day they will treasure the rest of their life.
Yes they have hit hard times now but the day they won at Wembley they will always remember.
Spot on. If we'd at won at Wembley (we bare troubled either opposition because of MONs negative tactics) I think we would all have fonder momories despite his obvious short comings and the current state of the club.
-
As I say, I enjoyed his time here, and a part of that was choosing to enjoy, and not getting dragged down by the minutiae of what was wrong. I had no choice but to be miserable under DOL, Houllier and TSM, so I'm glad I had that break, unlike some of you, who are now hopefully emerging from 7 years of unrelenting misery.
Now this is not me bigging up MON, but I don't see how sacking him earlier would have helped. Things haven't gone altogether swimmingly since he left have they?
Depends how much earlier, sacking him 2-3 months before he left would have made a huge difference in my opinion. I think the timing of his departure and the choice of someone so tactically different as his successor, with no ability to change the squad for half a season, have proven hugely significant in our subsequent performances.
-
Nowhere near as much as the abandonment of zonal marking, but the ditching of centre-halves at right-back contributed in part to us going from the best in the league at defending set-pieces, to the worst in the league.
As well as that was not having a Heskey/Carew type striker to come back at help defend set pieces. That didn't make up for Heskey shortcomings, but it was an advantage when he played.
-
When he came there was a huge feeling of relief and, if we are honest, surprise that a high-profile manager had come to us.
I was swept up in the Proud History/Bright Future for the first two seasons but then the cracks began to show and even though his departure was a shock I thought we could push on - only then did the cracks turn out to be yawning chasms.
He is inextricably linked with the last two seasons debacles and blamed directly by many - personally I don't care as I love the Villa more than I hate anyone/thing. So he can sod off from my radar now and we can get on with the rest of our lives.
-
That is how I've thought of it the last two years WW. The only reason I've posted is because of people going 'we were right, it WAS crap all along'.
-
Thing is Perce its how he left and what we've done since that have clouded everyone's judgement of his time. Yes there were many great times under the wanker. But the same reason that I'd give cat calls to Barry and not milner for the way he treated our club, I'm not about to let O'Neill off in the slightest and I begrudge him any credit for any of the good times in retrospection.
-
Agreed Pete, but we were debating what we posted before all that happened.
-
I know. I'm just saying that many a person will have their memory coloured by what has since transpired.
-
I know. I'm just saying that many a person will have their memory coloured by what has since transpired.
Well, of course. Just like Leeds fans who enjoyed the Champions League semi-final probably haven't enjoyed the intervening years quite as much.
-
How many regulars to Villa Park can honestly say they enjoyed what they were watching under O'Neill? Our home record was very disappointing points wise and even worse performance wise. It was only our hit 'em on the break away record that papered over the cracks of O'Neill's lack of imagination and tactical ability.
-
All this touches on something I've thought about lately. The main reason why we're pissed off at the moment, overly-critical about the past and cynical about the future is that for the success we've had over the past twenty years (and looking at it rationally we've probably done better than we and most outsiders give us credit for) we've got tangibly very little to show for it. Other clubs at our level have either got regular trophies, cup finals or great European nights as proof of the good times. We've got two fast-fading League Cups, two cup finals best forgotten and a UEFA cup quarter.
-
Don't forget the Peace Cup.
-
All this touches on something I've thought about lately. The main reason why we're pissed off at the moment, overly-critical about the past and cynical about the future is that for the success we've had over the past twenty years (and looking at it rationally we've probably done better than we and most outsiders give us credit for) we've got tangibly very little to show for it. Other clubs at our level have either got regular trophies, cup finals or great European nights as proof of the good times. We've got two fast-fading League Cups, two cup finals best forgotten and a UEFA cup quarter.
Would agree with that Dave. What has also been noticeable in that period is how quickly we have gone from having successful seasons to the brink of relegation in a short space of time.
-
Neil Moxley (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2229991/Martin-ONeil-Aston-Villa-reign-criticism--The-Midlander-MailOnline-column.html)
-
Oliver Holt.
Is there any point to this or is it just word association?
Sorry Lee, I guess it's a link. Copy and paste please?
-
Was O'Neill a good Villa manager? Let's end this debate once and for all...
As it is my understanding that yours truly was one of the journalists accused of 're-writing history,' by Martin O'Neill last week, let's settle the dispute over whether he did a good job at Aston Villa once and for all.
Now I'll be the first to hold up my hands and say that yes, on the whole, O'Neill ended in credit.
He ushered in an exciting era by making Aston Villa competitive again. He put the pride back into the club. What's more, winning football returned.
There were highlights - the return of European football, standing toe-to-toe with the big guns and recording some notable victories, such as winning at Old Trafford for the first time in almost three decades.
On a personal level, I enjoyed his company. He could be engaging, witty, funny. And spiteful and petty, given the occasion. However, the good outweighed the bad.
Hey, none of us is perfect. I fail to put dirty crockery in the dishwasher on the odd occasion - and suffer for it accordingly. It's one of those. But I am getting slightly miffed at the lack of perspective being shown by the former Villa boss.
Did he end his four-year reign in credit by that much? Yes, three sixth-placed finishes and one cup final in four years was a decent return.
Surely however, all this has to be placed in context. Until that day in August 2010 when he walked out, he had spent more money and had enjoyed a bigger budget than any other manager in Aston Villa's history.
Playing devil's advocate therefore, was it not reasonable to have expected more? After all, Harry Redknapp lifted Spurs into the Champions League after finding them bottom of the pile during the same period...
First though, let's deal with the stated 'fact' that O'Neill achieved more than any other Premier League manager at Villa Park. He didn't. Ron Atkinson finished second in 1992-93.
He didn't accrue more points than any other Villa manager. Atkinson did, in the above season, with 74 points, albeit from four matches more. Big Ron's points-per-game ratio is higher, too.
In fact, in terms of league finishes, several Villa managers have managed sixth - or better. John Gregory, (1998-99, 1999-2000) Brian Little (1995-96) and even David O'Leary (2003-04) reached that mark.
What's more, Atkinson won the League Cup. (1994) Gregory made it to the FA Cup final. (2000)
And Little went one better than O'Neill, winning the League Cup and reaching an FA Cup semi-final while hitting fourth. (1995-96)
But the Irishman's efforts have to be placed in context alongside all those others. None of the above - not even Atkinson - had access to the kind of funds O'Neill enjoyed when Randy Lerner entered English football with such a bang.
How could they? They worked for Doug Ellis whose solemn vow after taking over a bankrupt club in 1968 was that Aston Villa would never again be in such desperate financial straits.
But here's the rub. Look at what was left behind.
Once James Milner had been sold, there was little by way of value in much of Villa's squad. (Here, you can certainly draw parallels with Gregory's days in charge.) Okay, Stewart Downing went to Liverpool for an £8m profit. Ashley Young followed for a £6m boost to Villa's coffers.
Wiped out by the losses incurred on Marlon Harewood, Zat Knight, Nicky Shorey, Luke Young, Curtis Davies, Nigel Reo-Coker, Carlos Cuellar... The list goes on.
And dare we even mention Gary Cahill? Shipped out to Bolton Wanderers as surplus while a host of replacement centre-halves were ushered in and wheeled out. What happened to Cahill? Oh yes, he's now an England regular and has won the Champions League with Chelsea.
Furthermore O'Neill makes no mention of the fact that his resignation - five days before the start of the season - left Villa in a holy mess.
So, yes, those of us left behind have spoken to - and seen - people like chief executive Paul Faulkner - and Lerner on occasion.
We know what they had to go through to clear up the debris that was left behind in the Irishman's wake. Why should that not be taken into consideration when adding up all positive and negatives?
Lerner and Faulkner were left in an almighty stew in the week leading up to the first game of the season.
The effect of that cannot be over-stated. Yes, Gerard Houllier spent more in the season that followed. But Darren Bent was signed six months later purely to safeguard the club's Premier League status.
So, Martin, if you want an acknowledgement that you did a decent job at Villa Park - you've got it.
But surely there should have been an acknowledgement too of the resources that he was handed which allowed him to make such massive impact in the transfer market.
O'Neill was good. He was good for Villa. But come on, let's have some perspective. Martin O'Neill wasn't the greatest manager Aston Villa ever seen.
If he wants to be judged purely on results - any manager's ultimate defence - Atkinson achieved more.
Indeed, Little trumps the lot of them. But we are talking about the Premier League era. Football was not invented by a satellite television company. It should not go unremarked upon that this week was Ron Saunders' 80th birthday.
So, in Premier League terms, O'Neill's the third in the list by my reckoning. Not third-class. Not by a long stretch. That would be disrespectful. But, as the facts of history show, not top of the class either.
-
Neil Moxley (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2229991/Martin-ONeil-Aston-Villa-reign-criticism--The-Midlander-MailOnline-column.html)
Extremely good article.
-
Superb article, sums up my feelings exactly.
-
Superb article, sums up my feelings exactly.
Me too
-
Credit to Moxley, I've said on here many times that him and Stuart James are the only ones to have consistently shown they have a clue.
Modesty forbids revealing who they get their 'word on the street' from.
Yours, Huggy Bear.
-
A very good article. As regards the comparisons with Little and Atkinson their teams were also both more entertaining, Atkinsons by a country mile. O'Neills teams are more akin to Gregory's and even Mcleishs for entertainment and have always been so. We had a reminder of his `style of play` on view last Saturday,
-
Oh come on. Has a TSM team ever scored 70-odd goals in a season? Sir Brian's and BFR's teams I'll give you (most of the time) but I can also remember lots of good games when MON was manager.
-
I reckon Moxley robbed one of my posts for the basis of that article, the teal leaf!
-
If journalists ever robbed their articles from H&V, they would just be full of shit puns about fish
-
Oh come on. Has a TSM team ever scored 70-odd goals in a season? Sir Brian's and BFR's teams I'll give you (most of the time) but I can also remember lots of good games when MON was manager.
I am talking about MONs style of play not his win ratio. It's always a good game if you win I will give you that. But his whole approach to the game is a non expansive system not condusive to open attacking football. He was certainly like that in his Leicester years, probably the same in his Wycombe and Shepshed years. It would be interesting to know the views of Celtic fans, he had success at coming 1st in their 2 horse race but I mean their views purely on the style of football employed.
-
If journalists ever robbed their articles from H&V, they would just be full of shit puns about fish
And their match reports would mention Reggae Reggae sauce more often.
-
If journalists ever robbed their articles from H&V, they would just be full of shit puns about fish
Best stolen by that liberal free thinking rag The Guardian. They seem more at ease using the F word and even the C word than say The Daily Telegraph.
-
Oh come on. Has a TSM team ever scored 70-odd goals in a season? Sir Brian's and BFR's teams I'll give you (most of the time) but I can also remember lots of good games when MON was manager.
It would be interesting to know the views of Celtic fans, he had success at coming 1st in their 2 horse race but I mean their views purely on the style of football employed.
Celtic fans had Henrik Larsson banging in 50 goals a season. They were delighted.
-
Fucking hell, he must have been good if they only counter-attacked. I can just imagine all those teams in the SPL whose game plan was to pour forward at Parkhead and leave gaps at the back for MON's dull Celtic team to get the occasional flukey breakaway goal.
And Bolton, Derby and b-lose must have been all over us for us to score 15 goals in three games only by counter-attacking.
-
Fucking hell, he must have been good if they only counter-attacked. I can just imagine all those teams in the SPL whose game plan was to pour forward at Parkhead and leave gaps at the back for MON's dull Celtic team to get the occasional flukey breakaway goal.
And Bolton, Derby and b-lose must have been all over us for us to score 15 goals in three games only by counter-attacking.
I agree with you. There was more to O'Neill than his detractors would have you believe (we're on page 47!). I'm not sure that there is any more, mind.
-
Ditto. Of course, it helped that Villa had meat 'n'potatoes dullards like Young, Gabby, Carew, Milner, Downing and Barry playing out of their skin. But apart from that, yeah, it was really boring.
-
Ditto. Of course, it helped that Villa had meat 'n'potatoes dullards like Young, Gabby, Carew, Milner, Downing and Barry playing out of their skin. But apart from that, yeah, it was really boring.
This is my main issue with the overall grumpiness. On the whole I really enjoyed the way that we played. I certainly have no real desire for us to turn into a Swansea or a Mowbray-era West Brom clone.
-
Ditto. Of course, it helped that Villa had meat 'n'potatoes dullards like Young, Gabby, Carew, Milner, Downing and Barry playing out of their skin. But apart from that, yeah, it was really boring.
It was certainly boring at home on a very frequent basis.
Those are all good players you name, but the last two years in particular, at home, were dull as dishwater.
-
My only gripe with the article is that we made a profit on Zat Knight!
As for style of play, it was fine for his first two years, but should have then evolved as better players were brought in. We often talked about a creative central midfielder or top class striker, which he never bought, and players like that would have lead us to add a extra dimension to our game.
-
Paulie: it's DITCHWATER!
-
Has anyone mentioned that in within a season of MON taking over average home gates went from 33k to 40k.
-
Paulie: it's DITCHWATER!
I'm talking about particularly dull dishwater, but good to see you agreeing with the gist of the post. I knew you'd come round in the end.
-
Has anyone mentioned that in within a season of MON taking over average home gates went from 33k to 40k.
That's not really surprising, though, what with being taken over by a billionaire. Even Small Heath would get a spike if they got taken over by one.
-
well i would put it down to a better brand of football under MON than under odreary.
-
We play better football now than we did under TSM.
On that basis, shouldn't our gates be way up on last season ?
-
I was actually disagreeing with a poster who said it was as bad as TSM. What do you reckon?
-
It's difficult to make a balanced comment as the last two seasons' pain have magnified our blame of MON.
While he was our manager I felt confident we would be top six and had no inferiority complex of any other club.Times change Citeh's Arab money Spuds' rise under Harry etc. mean it's a different ball game now. MON gave a clue to his exit when he said we needed to spend big just to stand still then left shortly afterwards.Some of the best memories of his tenure contained players Like Laursen, Barry, Melberg, Bouma Agbonlahor none of them his signings. The sale of some of our youngsters like Cahill, Gardner frustrated us as did the home performances, particularly in his last season where the oppostion seemed to have possession of the ball more than us. The legacy we have seems familiar to Leicester after he left and even Celtic (Petrov and Larrsen were'nt his signings) I always felt he thought he was doing us a favour being our manager and you felt he was never far away from taking another job .I do feel we now have a chance to get our club back and we can now at least get behind the crop of youngsters who we know have a fight on their hands to survive this season. Strangely that feeling of being part of that fight feels better than some of the times when MON was here.
-
Neil Moxley (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2229991/Martin-ONeil-Aston-Villa-reign-criticism--The-Midlander-MailOnline-column.html)
Extremely good article.
It seems quite similar to some of my posts on this thread!
-
For me it's simple, there was some great stuff and some some shite under MON. Just like there's been under every Villa manager. 15 goals in 3 games, 0 goals in 4 games at home to Wigan. Winning at Old Trafford, getting twatted for 7 at Chelsea. Plenty of feelgood factor for the first 2 or 3 years, but as much of that was down to Randy as it was MON.
And that for me is the issue, despite the most money and best working conditions MON was like most of our other managers who were here for more than a year. Except a fair few of them actually won things.
-
I thought our home gates hod gone a tad, thought we were back around the 37k, last season we were 33 again.
-
We play better football now than we did under TSM.
On that basis, shouldn't our gates be way up on last season ?
Only if you believe those who said they would never return until Alex McLeish had gone.
HE'S GONE! Not that it makes any difference to me.
-
Fucking hell, he must have been good if they only counter-attacked. I can just imagine all those teams in the SPL whose game plan was to pour forward at Parkhead and leave gaps at the back for MON's dull Celtic team
to get the occasional flukey breakaway goal.
And Bolton, Derby and b-lose must have been all over us for us to score 15 goals in three games only by counter-attacking.
Derby were the worst team the premier league has seen, Bolton were going down when we play them (before they staged a miracle recovery after that game) and in any case Megson's bizarre tactic of planting his defence on the halfway line meant they were the one team we routinely trashed at home. SHA fair enough but the away game was a fair bit tighter that season.
The simple facts are that under MON only once in his 4 seasons did we even win 10 home league games at home (and that's just over 50% at that).
To give you a comparison the season Spurs finished 4th they won 14 games at WHL.
I've never said we were defensive under MON, just that when our widemen were marked out of the game, there was little guile and creation in central midfield until Milner was planted there and then it improved a bit.
Another tendancy was to retreat when we scored first in one of the big games. Spurs at home in MON's final season sticks in my mind, scored early on and just sat back for the rest of the game until Dawson scored late on.
-
author=claret and blue blood link=topic=48166.msg2171508#msg2171508 date=1352414977]
It's difficult to make a balanced comment as the last two seasons' pain have magnified our blame of MON.
While he was our manager I felt confident we would be top six and had no inferiority complex of any other club.Times change Citeh's Arab money Spuds' rise under Harry etc. mean it's a different ball game now. MON gave a clue to his exit when he said we needed to spend big just to stand still then left shortly afterwards.Some of the best memories of his tenure contained players Like Laursen, Barry, Melberg, Bouma Agbonlahor none of them his signings. The sale of some of our youngsters like Cahill, Gardner frustrated us as did the home performances, particularly in his last season where the oppostion seemed to have possession of the ball more than us. The legacy we have seems familiar to Leicester after he left and even Celtic (Petrov and Larrsen were'nt his signings) I always felt he thought he was doing us a favour being our manager and you felt he was never far away from taking another job .I do feel we now have a chance to get our club back and we can now at least get behind the crop of youngsters who we know have a fight on their hands to survive this season. Strangely that feeling of being part of that fight feels better than some of the times when MON was here.
[/quoteWhat a good post the only comment I can make is Mon also removed Sorensen from the team for Carson on loan from Liverpool. Sorensen was a good journeyman keeper who went on to serve Stoke well]
-
Dunno about that. I always thought Sorensen was a poor 'keeper. As for Carson, well as I recall he looked a top 'keeper with the majority wanting him signed up until his howler against Croatia. His confidence was crushed from then on. If he'd gone on to sign him after that loan season then by all means he could be criticised but he didn't.
-
If he'd gone on to sign him after that loan season then by all means he could be criticised but he didn't.
He did spend £2m on having him on loan for that one season. That's only half a million less than we paid for Friedel.
I think that is worthy of criticism.
-
If he'd gone on to sign him after that loan season then by all means he could be criticised but he didn't.
He did spend £2m on having him on loan for that one season. That's only half a million less than we paid for Friedel.
I think that is worthy of criticism.
He was what 21/22 at the time and seen as England's number one compared to Friedel who was 37. Had he have carried on with his early form that £2m would've been seen as a sound investment and we'd have been happy to sign him on a permanent deal viewing him as a good long term investment. It didn't. Given cost £3.5m and was handed a five year deal at the age of 35. As I recall there wasn't much objection at the time. Now he's sitting on the bench pulling in big wages we wish he'd have been signed on loan as well. That to me is just another handy stick to whack MoN with. By all means knock the signings of Harewood, Beye and Heskey but taking on loan a keeper who at the time was rated as highly as Joe Hart was three seasons back is off the mark in my opinion.
-
Sorry, but Carson was never rated that highly. And what makes thing worse is that we had a perfectly good keeper in Sorensen, who O'Neill treated very shabbily.
-
Sorry, but Carson was never rated that highly. And what makes thing worse is that we had a perfectly good keeper in Sorensen, who O'Neill treated very shabbily.
Well he was or he wouldn't have had a £10m price tag at the time. As for Sorensen, that's a matter of opinion, I personally never rated him. One of the weakest first choice keepers i've seen in the twenty or so years following the Villa is my opinion.
-
Sorry, but Carson was never rated that highly. And what makes thing worse is that we had a perfectly good keeper in Sorensen, who O'Neill treated very shabbily.
I'd say Carson was widely considered the best young keeper in England right up to that performance against Croatia. I never forgave Sorenson for chucking the ball in in both derbies in 04/05. Strangely I did Enckelman.
-
Sorry, but Carson was never rated that highly. And what makes thing worse is that we had a perfectly good keeper in Sorensen, who O'Neill treated very shabbily.
Well he was or he wouldn't have had a £10m price tag at the time. As for Sorensen, that's a matter of opinion, I personally never rated him. One of the weakest first choice keepers i've seen in the twenty or so years following the Villa is my opinion.
Who agreed that £10m price tag? Ah that's right, Martin O'Neill, who valued Curtis Davies at the same figure.
-
Sorry, but Carson was never rated that highly. And what makes thing worse is that we had a perfectly good keeper in Sorensen, who O'Neill treated very shabbily.
I'd say Carson was widely considered the best young keeper in England right up to that performance against Croatia. I never forgave Sorenson for chucking the ball in in both derbies in 04/05. Strangely I did Enckelman.
I'll always forgive Enkleman because, whilst it was stupid that goal should never have stood. You can't score direct from a throw in and there was more than a little doubt of whether he touched the ball. The ref let the atmosphere get to him and pretty much ruined a guys career over not having the balls to make the sensible call.
-
Dunno about that. I always thought Sorensen was a poor 'keeper. As for Carson, well as I recall he looked a top 'keeper with the majority wanting him signed up until his howler against Croatia. His confidence was crushed from then on. If he'd gone on to sign him after that loan season then by all means he could be criticised but he didn't.
When did Carson ever look a top keeper? Nice lad , but he was mediocre at best from day 1 with us, with his slow motion dives and the reactions of a dead cat. And he gradually faded away to utter shite. Nothing to do with losing his confidence against Croatia, he just wasn't ever a good keeper. He certainly wasn't an improvement on Sorensen who was and still is a steady PL keeper, whereas Carson is - who knows?. I think a lot of people went off Sorensen when he made a gaff or two against our neighbours. And let's not forget O'Neill paid Liverpool a 2m "loan fee" for Carson.
-
Sorry, but Carson was never rated that highly. And what makes thing worse is that we had a perfectly good keeper in Sorensen, who O'Neill treated very shabbily.
Well he was or he wouldn't have had a £10m price tag at the time. As for Sorensen, that's a matter of opinion, I personally never rated him. One of the weakest first choice keepers i've seen in the twenty or so years following the Villa is my opinion.
Who agreed that £10m price tag? Ah that's right, Martin O'Neill, who valued Curtis Davies at the same figure.
Liverpool may have valued him at 10m but they hyped Carson up and it was a massive con trick. It took me just a few matches to see that Carson was awful. Perhaps O'Neill should have watched him a few times before signing him rather than taking 'The Mighty Reds YNWA''s word for it.
-
Hoof, hoof, hoof was the order of the day as his tenure went on. Says a great deal.
-
Neil Moxley (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2229991/Martin-ONeil-Aston-Villa-reign-criticism--The-Midlander-MailOnline-column.html)
Extremely good article.
Agreed.
on the whole, O'Neill ended in credit.
Yes he did. We can feel better about agreeing with this assertion as the media is now listing MON's faults as well as his undoubted strengths. Now we just need a bit of stability so a team can be built that has a chance of challenging at the right end of the table.
-
Being in credit is a poor choice of phrase when it comes to discussing Aston Villa post Martin O'Neill!
-
I'm not sure I agree about him being in credit, breaking even is probably fairer.
He built a team aiming at a short term goal of reaching the champions league, despite improving and being close until the start of March a few times we never met that goal. A cup win or 2 would have served to mitigate that but by a combination of factors we missed out on those as well. The approach was very champions league or bust, and we've had a 2 year fall out to going bust.
The hope with Lambert is that he'll have a much longer game plan to aim at the same goal.
-
Who said it was a short term plan, though?
That's how it turned out, but i can't believe it was deliberately done that way.
I think we can forget CL aspirations under Lerner now. They've made it really clear we have to be self supporting - basically, the Everton model.
-
If he'd gone on to sign him after that loan season then by all means he could be criticised but he didn't.
He did spend £2m on having him on loan for that one season. That's only half a million less than we paid for Friedel.
I think that is worthy of criticism.
He was what 21/22 at the time and seen as England's number one compared to Friedel who was 37.
Yes, but the thing with comparing Carson to Friedel is that we paid the Carson fee and then got Friedel in, too.
-
Was it not the same transfer window we signed Carson on loan, that Sunderland signed Gordon for £8m or so? Am I right in saying that MON wanted Gordon, but he chose Sunderland? Carson was at the time a promising young keeper (or at least had the reputation of one) who was available on loan.
I had no problem shipping Sorensen out at the time mind. The couple of seasons prior to him leaving he put in some shockers IIRC. That said the defence in front of him wasn't always the best. He was pretty solid for Stoke when he went there though. Sometimes players just need a move I guess.
-
Specifically on the keeper thing, Sorensen was a bog standard mid-table keeper, generally ok, the odd howler but got on with the job. Carson had the reputation of being the next big thing, and he clearly had a lot of talent but he wasn't mentally strong enough to be called up for England at that time and his nerves got to him. Then the same lack of mental strength meant he couldn't brush it off and get on with it. Can't fault MoN for that.
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a ******).
-
I agree Paulie, on both counts. Carson looking a good player, and Moyles being an unspeakably tosseristic, bastard head.
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a c***).
I always thought he looked liked Terry Thomas.
-
Sorensen was a much better keeper than Carson.
I believe he was injured for the start of that season (and in any case him and MON probably did have a personality clash) so we did need to get a keeper in and Carson did o.k at Charlton the previous season.
-
Did Carson kick the ball and hit one of the Villas players back side and end up back in the net?
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a c***).
I always thought he looked liked Terry Thomas.
I think he looked like Terry Fuckwit the Viz character.
Edit, and to prove it:
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3636/scottcarson682x41026407.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/scottcarson682x41026407.jpg/)
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9647/terryxt9.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/terryxt9.png/)
-
Did Carson kick the ball and hit one of the Villas players back side and end up back in the net?
That was Pompey away in a 2-0 defeat. Re Coker it hit I think
-
Did Carson kick the ball and hit one of the Villas players back side and end up back in the net?
with the amount of back passes he received, it was bound to happen sooner or later. Never seen so many back passes in all my life than we had when MON was here.
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a c***).
I always thought he looked liked Terry Thomas.
I think he looked like Terry Fuckwit the Viz character.
Edit, and to prove it:
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3636/scottcarson682x41026407.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/scottcarson682x41026407.jpg/)
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9647/terryxt9.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/terryxt9.png/)
Spotters badge to Risso.
He reminds me of Rimmer from Red Dwarf, because he appears to be a hologram.
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a c***).
Carson was never a good keeper for us. The England Croatia game merely brought his ineptitude to the masses. I never had any confidence in him. I'd go further and say he's the worst Villa goalkeeper of the last 40 years.
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a c***).
Carson was never a good keeper for us. The England Croatia game merely brought his ineptitude to the masses. I never had any confidence in him. I'd go further and say he's the worst Villa goalkeeper of the last 40 years.
Gabor Kiraly?
-
That daft brain-freeze against ManYoo aside, I can't remember much that Kiraly did wrong.
I remember in particular a save he made against Crystal Palace which I thought was one of the best saves I'd ever seen.
I'd have him over Carson.
-
Kiraly was better than Carson imo.
I think the bizarre way he dressed makes it easy for people to link that with joke keeper but he wasn't, game before he kept a clean sheet against Chelsea for example.
Carson started off o.k (and is still probably the best keeper I've seen kicking the ball) but that was his only real strength as he was a mediocre shot stopper and stayed rooted to his line. It's saying something when Given comes off his line more than Carson did.
Also worth remembering that Carson was the only villa keeper who had the luxury of playing behind Laursen for a full season and still we went months without keeping a clean sheet.
He really wasn't very good and wasn't much better at WBA afterwards.
-
Didn't look too well today, apparently.
Rumours of his wife being ill again (hopefully not true).
Only been up in Sunderland two days a week for the past few weeks.
-
Didn't look too well today, apparently.
Rumours of his wife being ill again (hopefully not true).
Only been up in Sunderland two days a week for the past few weeks.
Wouldn't read too much into mon being there only 2 days a week, often at villa he wasn't there at training , similar to cloughie in that respect , Martin has never really been hands on regarding training and lets his staff run things - I hope that rumours regarding his wife being ill are false , but if true I would expect him to leave Sunderland pretty soon.
I think at villa he believed he could crack the top four and move onto better things but he seems to have lost that spark and looks as if knows Sunderland and mid table will be as good as it gets for him- I would be surprised if he was there in a years time.
-
Didn't look too well today, apparently.
Rumours of his wife being ill again (hopefully not true).
Only been up in Sunderland two days a week for the past few weeks.
He was having a shitfit at the ref at the end of the Everton game, don't know what it was about.
-
Didn't look too well today, apparently.
Rumours of his wife being ill again (hopefully not true).
Only been up in Sunderland two days a week for the past few weeks.
He was having a shitfit at the ref at the end of the Everton game, don't know what it was about.
The ref had given Everton a free-kick and Danny Rose a yellow card for trying to dribble past two Everton defenders and apparently running too fast into the back of them.
That's two of the harshest yellows I've ever seen for Rosé in the space of a few weeks.
-
I thought Carson was pretty good right up until that England match.
I'd even managed to get over the fact that he looks like a thin Chris Moyles (controversial, what with Chris Moyles being a c***).
Carson was never a good keeper for us. The England Croatia game merely brought his ineptitude to the masses. I never had any confidence in him. I'd go further and say he's the worst Villa goalkeeper of the last 40 years.
Gabor Kiraly?
Kiraly made that one bluder in the FA cup, other than that I didnt think he was that bad for us in his very limited time
-
having said that, he is definitely up there with Oakes, Enkleman and Guzan Mk 1 (not the current Guzan I hasten to add)
-
The problem with Sunderland is that it is just so far away if you aren't enjoying a job. Celtic entirely different of course, it felt right, it was made for him. If his wife is ill again, there will be no contest between Sunderland and that and quite rightly so - one of the good few things I have admired about him over the years.
-
Worst goalie for 40 years? I think he edges it over Budgie who at least was a blinding shot stopper but like a fart in a colander at everything else.
Outside the 40 year bracket the worst I have ever seen between the sticks for Villa was Mike Pinner who was an amateur and came to us from Pegasus the combined Oxford and Cambridge University sides. If this factette is a bit untrue it is because I work without a safety net. He was truly useless. What kind of a student he was I have no idea.
Incompetent but in an entirely excusable way was Con Martin who was a centre half and a very good Irish international to boot. He used to go in goal when we had an injured keeper and was very good. Villa being skint and run by Bull Ring costermongers he got picked as keeper for a number of games. Again all from my dementia threatened memory so apologies all round if it is bollocks.
-
When did Jim Cumbes play for us, he was pretty crap by all accounts.
-
71-75 I think....don't think he was that bad ...my memory is as good as Brian's though!...but he has good reasons for his
-
Jim Cumbes wasn't a brilliant cat-like keeper, but was perfectly competent. Had a hell of a kick on him.
The player he replaced, Tommy Hughes, had more than one 'mare. The Notts County game was his finest hour and a half. Dropped everything that came near him but saved a penalty. His other cliam to fame was cominge to blows with skipper Harry Gregory on a league cup match at Wrexham
-
Thought Budgie was great to begin with, certainly better than Jake Findlay, and they were the keepers in 76-77 so couldn't have been that bad.
-
When did Jim Cumbes play for us, he was pretty crap by all accounts.
1972-76. He was decent in the lower divisions but like may of his contemporaries got found out back in division one. He did, as Steve says, have one hell of a kick on him and could throw to the halfway line.
-
When did Jim Cumbes play for us, he was pretty crap by all accounts.
1972-76. He was decent in the lower divisions but like may of his contemporaries got found out back in division one. He did, as Steve says, have one hell of a kick on him and could throw to the halfway line.
Not bad at cricket either, took plenty of wickets in a really star studded Lancashire team.
-
Jim Cumbes, or Dracula as my old man called him, he never liked crosses.
-
He had a hell of a kick from his hands did Jim Cumbes- he was responsible for one of my favourite goals at the Villa- Jim wallops it downfield Andy Lochead flicks on and Ray Graydon volleyed in from 25 yards, bish, bash, bosh.
-
When did Jim Cumbes play for us, he was pretty crap by all accounts.
1972-76. He was decent in the lower divisions but like may of his contemporaries got found out back in division one. He did, as Steve says, have one hell of a kick on him and could throw to the halfway line.
Not bad at cricket either, took plenty of wickets in a really star studded Lancashire team.
And a very dangerous man to interview. Turn the tape on, ask the first question and two hours later your ribs are sore from laughing so much. One of the nicest and funniest men I've ever met.
-
Mike Pinner must have been before my time. The first few keepers I remember were Colin Withers, John Dunne and Tommy Hughes, none of whom were particularly reliable. Jim Cumbes was steady but prone to the odd cock-up, unfortunately often against the Albion.
I'm just wondering if anyone can remember any good saves Carson made for us. I can't. And I always thought he looked like Desperate Dan.
-
I didn't think he was much cop for us before the Croatia game. He did get worse after it though.
-
Mike Pinner must have been before my time. The first few keepers I remember were Colin Withers, John Dunne and Tommy Hughes, none of whom were particularly reliable. Jim Cumbes was steady but prone to the odd cock-up, unfortunately often against the Albion.
I'm just wondering if anyone can remember any good saves Carson made for us. I can't. And I always thought he looked like Desperate Dan.
With keepers you tend to remember the mistakes rather than the great saves unless it's say a penalty shootout.
-
Crap keepers and no mention of Mervyn Day?
-
Why oh why has not one person mentioned Les Sealey as worst keeper
-
Not bad at cricket either, took plenty of wickets in a really star studded Lancashire team.
[/quote]
He took lots of wickets for Worcestershire, not Lancs.
-
Not bad at cricket either, took plenty of wickets in a really star studded Lancashire team.
He took lots of wickets for Worcestershire, not Lancs.
[/quote]
Sorry yes of course, he became Lancashire commercial boss afterwards .
-
Colin Withers was a good keeper but the various Villa line ups he played in were very poor.
-
Schmichael was pretty past it at Villa.
-
Why oh why has not one person mentioned Les Sealey as worst keeper
Maybe it was the fact that I loved Sealey that clouded my judgement of him but I didn't think he was bad at all.
RIP Les, ya daft cockney mentalist
-
It's amazing where some of these threads take us by the end!
Goalkeepers?!
-
Mike Pinner must have been before my time. The first few keepers I remember were Colin Withers, John Dunne and Tommy Hughes, none of whom were particularly reliable. Jim Cumbes was steady but prone to the odd cock-up, unfortunately often against the Albion.
I'm just wondering if anyone can remember any good saves Carson made for us. I can't. And I always thought he looked like Desperate Dan.
I can remember quite a few excellent shot stopping performances from various keepers such as Given at WBA last season, a few from Friedel, even Michael Oakes, I think at Chelsea in the League Cup where we got hit for 4 or 5 but he saved a load more. I can't remember Carson ever having a performance, or even one save, that stood out.
-
O Neill has some regrets about what happened at villa - I wonder what they are ?
O'Neill says he has tackled all his managerial jobs with a long term outlook and is no quitter.
He added: "If you want to go down that road, I spent five years at Wycombe, five years at Celtic and four and a half at Leicester and four years at Aston Villa. I am not sure where the quitting thing comes in.
"The only time I walked away was Norwich. We were third and myself and the chairman, Mr Chase, just couldn't get on. He disliked me as much as I disliked him.
"So it was not a major problem, my only regret is what happened with Aston Villa but that is a totally different issue"
-
O Neill has some regrets about what happened at villa - I wonder what they are ?
That he wasn't able to spend £350billion on Aiden McGeady.
-
"The only time I walked away was Norwich. We were third and myself and the chairman, Mr Chase, just couldn't get on. He disliked me as much as I disliked him.
"...my only regret is what happened with Aston Villa...
When he walked away.
-
"The only time I walked away was Norwich. We were third and myself and the chairman, Mr Chase, just couldn't get on. He disliked me as much as I disliked him.
"...my only regret is what happened with Aston Villa...
When he walked away.
You mean when he quit, like he's only ever done at Norwich?
Git.
Not you Jimbo!
-
By Brian McNally | 28/11/12
Sunderland owner and chairman Ellis Short cut a confident, debonair figure as he mingled with the press corps just an hour before Harry Redknapp’s eagerly-awaited return to Premier League management.
The expectant banter in the Stadium of Light's press room centred largely on the problems Redknapp faces in rejuvenating rock-bottom Queens Park Rangers.
But Short is astute enough to know that, out of earshot, the assembled media throng were also discussing his own club and the uncertainty surrounding Martin O’Neill.
Short, despite that cool, composed exterior, expected Sunderland to be in the top half of the table after head-hunting O’Neill and then investing £22million last summer in internationals Steven Fletcher and Adam Johnson.
It hasn’t happened.
So he might have been slightly relieved that the spotlight was being trained relentlessly on Redknapp and co here.
But there is little doubt that both Short and O’Neill are aware that Sunderland’s results must improve and quickly.
The Irishman had prepared for the match by issuing a feisty denial that he had offered his resignation last Saturday after a 4-2 home defeat by West Bromwich Albion.
He even introduced an aura of a besieged gunfighter into the debate.
But, just short of a year into his tenure and after this 0-0 draw, there are a growing number of dissenters firing shots at the Sunderland manager.
Some critics are suggesting that his trademark rallying calls citing old mentors Brian Clough and Peter Taylor simply don’t resonate with younger players, who may never have heard of the legendary duo.
Others point to his struggles to come up with a system that gets the best out of Johnson and Stephane Sessegnon.
The Irishman’s inspirational arrival on Wearside gave players and fans alike a massive boost and Sunderland moved impressively out of danger.
But just two wins from the last 21 games suggest that O’Neill’s magic simply isn’t working.
Short is prepared to give O’Neill the two remaining years of his contract to deliver success, but the Sunderland boss has admitted that if he can’t turn it around by then, he will stand aside.
That is looking increasingly likely.
-
He's doing a great job. Don't bottle it (again!) MON!
-
Two years. Poor bastards. Makes me shudder.
-
O Neill has some regrets about what happened at villa - I wonder what they are ?
That he wasn't able to spend £350billion on Aiden McGeady.
Lol. Post of the day.
-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/nov/29/10-talking-points-premier-league-midweek
Has the time come for Martin O'Neill to start rotating his squad? Sunderland's manager likes to place his trust in a small corps of players and field them whenever possible but, after two wins in the last 21 Premier League games, it is maybe time for O'Neill to offer sidelined individuals such as Fraizer Campbell, Connor Wickham, Louis Saha and David Vaughan a chance.
Ahahahahaha! Don't hold your breath.
-
I saw that, you missed out the headline 'O'Neill needs to look beyond first-choice XI'.
Can you imagine how angry he is after spending years building up his media reputation as the Son of Clough, just to see it go down the pan in days. He even tried to rekindle the Clough link the other day in a press conference but the journo's weren't buying it. He'll obviously be in denial and stubbornly refuse to play any of the above mentioned players.
I can't see him lasting the season.
-
That's terrific. Just terrific.
O Neill's quickly becoming more and more outdated. I fancy punting a few quid on him taking them down. He's too stubborn to adapt to the new breed of football and managers coming into the top flight.
-
He might well end up like Clough ending his final season as a manager taking his team down.
-
If they think it's bad now, just wait until he runs out of steam in March. ha ha ha.
-
He might well end up like Clough ending his final season as a manager taking his team down.
and waking up in a ditch nursing an empty bottle of scotch.
-
Interesting martin thinks things were gping well at aston villa-
By Brian McNally | 01/12/12
Martin O’Neill is adamant he won’t be derailed by the flak he is facing at Sunderland and has declared: “I’m no quitter!”
The Black Cats boss is convinced he will make his critics eat their words by making a success of the Sunderland job over remaining two years of his contract, despite winning just two of his last 21 league games.
O’Neill heads to one of his former clubs, Norwich, today confident that he can transform the Black Cats fortunes.
He said: “Criticism is a major part of the game, so it doesn’t really concern me. You get it everywhere.
“It really doesn’t bother me. We need to win some games, but I don’t get worried.
“No one is immune to it. If Arsene Wenger – only last week – has been told for the second time in a year by his own fans that doesn’t know what he’s doing, I think we can all accept plenty of criticism.
“Harry Redknapp has been a great manager for a long time, but he’s not fooled by that.
“He has said himself that he’s not got a magic wand. Alex Ferguson doesn’t have a magic wand, believe it or not.
“He had a tough time for a number of years at Manchester United. He laughs himself at some of the signings he made in those days. He’s the greatest living manager in the game. And if Roberto Di Matteo can be the first manager to lose his job, having won the Champions League, let’s get a better sense about these things.
“I know what I’m capable of doing. History would tend to suggest I will pull it round. I’m pretty confident about things.”
And O’Neill delivered a stinging rebuke to the critics who he believes have wrongly branded him a quitter. He added: “I had five years at Wycombe, four-and-a-half years at Leicester, five years at Celtic, four years at Aston Villa. People say, ‘When things aren’t going so well, he tends to go.’ Well, that’s not actually true.
“If things weren’t going well at Aston Villa, I don’t know what was.
“A year into seeing the people here, they have a great passion for the club and that is mixed up with a lot of other emotions – blinding frustration and maybe annoyance that they’ve had a lot of false dawns. Nearly 40 years since we last won a trophy.
“I think it weighs on the fans, it’s not weighing on me. It’s been a long time. The main job here is to get a side that can compete in this league.
“There must be something wrong somewhere that a club of this size can’t go and really compete – and that’s what I want to do.
“I’m not looking for a five-year plan to do this. It will be somebody else’s task, if that’s the case. I want to do it in the term of my contract. I want to be successful, but I would like to do it because it’s the football club and it’s a major institution.
“Sometimes, even up here, I’m not sure people realise how big it is. It’s a great club. I believe I am more driven.
“It’s a blinding ambition to want to make this club successful.”
'Unbelievable': O'Neill is a top-class manager, insists Gardner
Defiant Craig Gardner fired a broadside at critics of Martin O’Neill’s Sunderland regime by insisting: “He’s not Superman – but he’s unbelievable!”
The Black Cats midfielder is adamant that there is no crisis at the Stadium of Light, despite Sunderland going to Norwich today having won just two of their last 21 league games. Gardner, who has played under O’Neill over a five-year period with Aston Villa and Sunderland, is confident his manager will soon silence the doubters.
Gardner said: “Everyone is jumping on the bandwagon – there are a lot of teams who are struggling for results.
“The gaffer has come in here with a massive expectation after what he did at Villa. But he needed time at Villa before taking the team to three successive sixth-place finishes... He has only been here a year.
“He’s not Superman – But he’s unbelievable. Everyone is behind him. He’s a top-class manager with a top-class squad.
“I think the criticism has been unfair. That’s football, but we need to win the games.
“We are not in a crisis – we are not bottom of the league , we are struggling. If we win three of the next six or seven, we will be fine.
“People have little digs at the manager but no one in the dressing room does. Everyone praises him.
“Everyone is raring to go but nobody is hiding and we will get out of this. We are a team of fighters.”
-
He is correct, he isn't a quitter....he is a gutless, spiteful quitter
-
I've seen an interview with him where he said the only regret he had was what happened at Villa.
-
I saw that, you missed out the headline 'O'Neill needs to look beyond first-choice XI'.
Can you imagine how angry he is after spending years building up his media reputation as the Son of Clough, just to see it go down the pan in days. He even tried to rekindle the Clough link the other day in a press conference but the journo's weren't buying it. He'll obviously be in denial and stubbornly refuse to play any of the above mentioned players.
I can't see him lasting the season.
It's one of the traits he seems to have certainly picked up from Clough - kidology. OBE didn't just overlook those not in his starting XI - he positively ignored them. At the games, at the training ground, wherever. The lesson being: a first team place was everything. You didn't make the first XI = you didn't exist.
The modern game just doesn't operate that way though, subs are as important (maybe sometimes more important) than those starting the match. And keeping a whole squad of players motivated, involved and keen is not optional, it's a necessity.
It's always bugged me that he picked up on some of the weird and contrary ways of his mentor and not some of his more worthy beliefs, like football being played on the deck and not in the clouds.
-
He might well end up like Clough ending his final season as a manager taking his team down.
and waking up in a ditch nursing an empty bottle of scotch.
Coffee Spat!
-
I saw that, you missed out the headline 'O'Neill needs to look beyond first-choice XI'.
Can you imagine how angry he is after spending years building up his media reputation as the Son of Clough, just to see it go down the pan in days. He even tried to rekindle the Clough link the other day in a press conference but the journo's weren't buying it. He'll obviously be in denial and stubbornly refuse to play any of the above mentioned players.
I can't see him lasting the season.
It's one of the traits he seems to have certainly picked up from Clough - kidology. OBE didn't just overlook those not in his starting XI - he positively ignored them. At the games, at the training ground, wherever. The lesson being: a first team place was everything. You didn't make the first XI = you didn't exist.
The modern game just doesn't operate that way though, subs are as important (maybe sometimes more important) than those starting the match. And keeping a whole squad of players motivated, involved and keen is not optional, it's a necessity.
It's always bugged me that he picked up on some of the weird and contrary ways of his mentor and not some of his more worthy beliefs, like football being played on the deck and not in the clouds.
This is just spot on, completely agree with this.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
It's a very good point. How many Villa managers have gone on to a bigger job? Taylor to Ingerland is the only one I can think of.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
It's a very good point. How many Villa managers have gone on to a bigger job? Taylor to Ingerland is the only one I can think of.
Joe mercer didn't do too badly.neither did tommy Docherty eventually.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
It's a very good point. How many Villa managers have gone on to a bigger job? Taylor to Ingerland is the only one I can think of.
Joe mercer didn't do too badly.neither did tommy Docherty eventually.
That's true. Docherty took all he had learnt at Villa and applied it in the same way at a whole host of other clubs, including Manchester United as Ron Atkinson once famously pointed out.
-
Sunderland lose, Norwich up to 12th !
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
Ron Saunders and Tony Barton didn't fail. Ron Atkinson and Brian Little also both won silverware with Villa. There's four non failures for starters.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
-
If they think it's bad now, just wait until he runs out of steam in March. ha ha ha.
Like.
-
I saw that, you missed out the headline 'O'Neill needs to look beyond first-choice XI'.
Can you imagine how angry he is after spending years building up his media reputation as the Son of Clough, just to see it go down the pan in days. He even tried to rekindle the Clough link the other day in a press conference but the journo's weren't buying it. He'll obviously be in denial and stubbornly refuse to play any of the above mentioned players.
I can't see him lasting the season.
It's one of the traits he seems to have certainly picked up from Clough - kidology. OBE didn't just overlook those not in his starting XI - he positively ignored them. At the games, at the training ground, wherever. The lesson being: a first team place was everything. You didn't make the first XI = you didn't exist.
The modern game just doesn't operate that way though, subs are as important (maybe sometimes more important) than those starting the match. And keeping a whole squad of players motivated, involved and keen is not optional, it's a necessity.
It's always bugged me that he picked up on some of the weird and contrary ways of his mentor and not some of his more worthy beliefs, like football being played on the deck and not in the clouds.
This is just spot on, completely agree with this.
Seconded - well said Gagey.
At Leicester I suppose he had to cut his cloth accordingly in terms of personnel but he could have played with more style - much more style - with the resources at his disposal at B6.
-
He's a 90s football man in the 21st century.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
Aston villa is a huge job but lets be honest-
There were far bigger jobs in the 60s , Liverpool, man utd, man city, Everton , spurs ,etc
There were bigger jobs in the 70s - Liverpool, arsenal, man utd, Leeds.
There were bigger jobs on the 80s - Man U, Everton, Liverpool, arsenal
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
Aston villa is a huge job but lets be honest-
There were far bigger jobs in the 60s , Liverpool, man utd, man city, Everton , spurs ,etc
There were bigger jobs in the 70s - Liverpool, arsenal, man utd, Leeds.
There were bigger jobs on the 80s - Man U, Everton, Liverpool, arsenal
Eastie - stop being so f***ing sensible, please!
-
He's a 90s football man in the 21st century.
Yesterday's man, today, but at tomorrow's prices.
-
Sunderland we're a little unlucky I thought today...........chortle !
The other Gardner played quite well and was unlucky with a couple of shots as well......chortle !
He's going to spend even more money in Jan as well apparently.Downing ? 6 year contract for Rio ?
-
Very few Villa managers every go upwards on the ladder in fairness.
Thing is get it really right at Villa and you would be top 4-6, and the top 3-4 rarely look inside these shores for a new boss.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
True, but you could say the same for most of the big clubs people have mentioned. Villa are a big club and managers leaving it have almost all found that out.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
I agree. After Joe Mercer was disposed of by the club, our managers were Dick Taylor, Tommy Cummings, Tommy Docherty and Vic Crowe. With all due respect to the other three, only The Doc would have been considered a `big name` appointment,
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
For one season, and with 49000 attendances, not to mention beating a Man United team with Best, Law , and Charlton.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
I agree. After Joe Mercer was disposed of by the club, our managers were Dick Taylor, Tommy Cummings, Tommy Docherty and Vic Crowe. With all due respect to the other three, only The Doc would have been considered a `big name` appointment,
I hope Mr.Woodhall is okay? This is the type of discussion he his built for.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
Aston villa is a huge job but lets be honest-
There were far bigger jobs in the 60s , Liverpool, man utd, man city, Everton , spurs ,etc
There were bigger jobs in the 70s - Liverpool, arsenal, man utd, Leeds.
There were bigger jobs on the 80s - Man U, Everton, Liverpool, arsenal
's
I think you have just largely argued my point. Since the 1960's, and indeed earlier, there have only really been, until very recently, 3 consistently bigger jobs, or clubs, than Villa, Man United, Arsenal, and Liverpool (and Man United have dropped down a division in that period). The other teams you mention have had there moments, but at best have only really been jobs that were of similar stature to Villa.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
Ron Saunders and Tony Barton didn't fail. Ron Atkinson and Brian Little also both won silverware with Villa. There's four non failures for starters.
No. But there is adifference between failing and a failure to bring to fruition the full potential of the players at your disposal. Sir Brian I felt could have achieved more. SVC was obviously a factor but failure to achieve more than a one league cup would havee tarnished him in e eyes of others who may have considered him as a pitential manager. Also maybe others could have thought that he was inable to handle the big players. And a s for Big Ron, was he on his way down when he came to us? Not necessarily from sheff wed but from Man Utd. As for Ron saunders and tony barton...no arguments there but we are talking 30 years ago. A lot of water under the bridge sonce then and ourmanagers have not gone o. To bigger jobs because they failed at B6
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
We've never been out of the top division for long though. I think we've only spent 12 seasons out of the top flight of English football in our entire history. Not many teams can better that. In fact I think it's only one. Perhaps that's what he meant when he claimed we've always been "there or there abouts".
-
We weren't there or thereabouts when we found ourselves in the third division.
For one season, and with 49000 attendances, not to mention beating a Man United team with Best, Law , and Charlton.
It was actually two.
-
MON will soon be one of yesterdays men. He will either finish up unemployable ( like O'Leary, which I am glad about) or slowly sliding down the league structure managing non league in front of a few hundred (like Brian Little, which I am not glad about).
What all managers should realise when they get the Villa job, it will more likely than not be the biggest and best job they will ever have.
Is that because they invariably fail and none of the "bigger and better clubs" see them as a potential manager?
It has been to a large extent because for much of Villas history there have been fewer , even no, bigger jobs.
Perhaps only Arsenal up until the 60's.
Then, Man United after the mid 60's, and then Liverpool from the 70's.
Only recently have we fallen well down the pecking order. as we have been overtaken by Spurs, Chelsea, and then Man City.
Lets not get carried away , yes we are a big club but there have been bigger jobs down the years than you have mentioned- we have won the league once in the last 100 years and fa cup once in the last 90 years .
Other clubs have come and gone, Wolves for example, but Villa, with the exception of a few blips, have always been there, or thereabouts, and always had the potential to return to the top.
Aston villa is a huge job but lets be honest-
There were far bigger jobs in the 60s , Liverpool, man utd, man city, Everton , spurs ,etc
There were bigger jobs in the 70s - Liverpool, arsenal, man utd, Leeds.
There were bigger jobs on the 80s - Man U, Everton, Liverpool, arsenal
's
I think you have just largely argued my point. Since the 1960's, and indeed earlier, there have only really been, until very recently, 3 consistently bigger jobs, or clubs, than Villa, Man United, Arsenal, and Liverpool (and Man United have dropped down a division in that period). The other teams you mention have had there moments, but at best have only really been jobs that were of similar stature to Villa.
Yes the villa job is a big job but I would say we are around the 6th biggest job at best and results , achievements etc over the last 50 years would testify to that .
The era when we dominated football was long before any of us were born and well over 100 years ago.
-
bbc.co.uk/football
Sunderland manager Martin O'Neill says his side are in a relegation battle after one win in their last 10 matches.
The Black Cats are one place and one point above the Premier League drop zone after a 2-1 defeat at Norwich.
"Until you get the requisite number of points I don't think that you can ever think anything else," said O'Neill.
"You need the points, it really is as simple as that. We haven't got enough points on the board at the minute and we have to rectify that."
O'Neill will have been in charge for a year this week and he masterminded some impressive results to steer the Stadium of Light club away from relegation after taking over from Steve Bruce last season.
"Our position in the league, with a couple of teams all tight together, would suggest we are in a fight," added O'Neill.
"It is a battle for us and we have to pull through - it was a battle last year and so I'm hoping the experience they have will stand them in good stead this season."
Norwich looked comfortable after Sebastien Bassong and Anthony Pilkington put them 2-0 up.
Craig Gardner pulled one back for the Black Cats and they piled on the pressure in the second half but failed to take their chances.
"To dominate the way we did in the second half is encouraging," said O'Neill.
"I said to the players at the end that if we perform like we did in the second half we will be fine. We are certainly not good enough to gift goals to teams and be able to turn that around. The top sides are able to do that but we are certainly not a top side."
-
^^^^^^^^^^ Typical Mon, talks a lot but says nothing.
-
If he lasts the season I'll be amazed.
-
^^^^^^^^^^ Typical Mon, talks a lot but says nothing.
To quote James Brown:
"Just talking loud, and sayin' nuthin'"
-
We've never been out of the top division for long though. I think we've only spent 12 seasons out of the top flight of English football in our entire history. Not many teams can better that. In fact I think it's only one.
Everton
-
favourite to be sacked now .
you know the weasle will resign before they get the chance to do it.
-
Teflon mon.
-
He'll walk out and make an excuse before Sunderland pull the trigger.
-
He'll walk out and make an excuse before Sunderland pull the trigger.
I never got the funds ;)
-
Can he sell us Gardner first . 6 mths ago I would have said no bloody way , look to the future.
but watching him yesterday I thought , I would love him in our midfielder , he looked good , come on MON swap for Dunne and Warnock.
-
Can he sell us Gardner first . 6 mths ago I would have said no bloody way , look to the future.
but watching him yesterday I thought , I would love him in our midfielder , he looked good , come on MON swap for Dunne and Warnock.
Said this 12 months ago. He's continuing to improve and chips in with a few goals. Would add considerable bite to our lightweight midfield.
-
He'll walk out and make an excuse before Sunderland pull the trigger.
I never got the funds ;)
Ah, good one.
-
I was thinking this morning that it would be pretty cool to see MON's Sunderland and Rednapp's Rangers go down together. Just as long as we're not going with them!
-
This is just your usual collection of journos repeating every known prejudice about someone, knowing that fans will find something to agree with. There is something for everyone in there and the cods-wallop shouldn't be confused with reasoned opinion.
They reiterate the Villa fans' orthodoxy that everything that is wrong with Villa, even Lerner losing interest, is O'Neill's fault.
Its not Martin O'Neill who is only capable of being a mid-table club it is Sunderland. Spending £25m on two players is not enough to transform the black cats into CL contenders. Just as what he spent at Villa was never going to be enough to lay siege to the positions of teams who either have enjoyed a decade or more of CL monies, made a lucky lucrative signing, or just threw as much money at the problem as it took.
Whatever the failings of MON as a manager and he is not perfect, crowing about his present problems, in an effort to feel better about Villa's present determination to get relegated, is just a childish red herring.
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
-
This is just your usual collection of journos repeating every known prejudice about someone, knowing that fans will find something to agree with. There is something for everyone in there and the cods-wallop shouldn't be confused with reasoned opinion.
They reiterate the Villa fans' orthodoxy that everything that is wrong with Villa, even Lerner losing interest, is O'Neill's fault.
Its not Martin O'Neill who is only capable of being a mid-table club it is Sunderland. Spending £25m on two players is not enough to transform the black cats into CL contenders. Just as what he spent at Villa was never going to be enough to lay siege to the positions of teams who either have enjoyed a decade or more of CL monies, made a lucky lucrative signing, or just threw as much money at the problem as it took.
Whatever the failings of MON as a manager and he is not perfect, crowing about his present problems, in an effort to feel better about Villa's present determination to get relegated, is just a childish red herring.
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
Thanks, Henry.
-
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
What the truth being that the club could not afford to bankroll his signings any more and needed to cut their cloth accordingly.
How dare they look at the finances of the club and make a rational decision. We should have just kept spending, spending, spending and ended up in administration. That's what MON wanted.
-
MONbot
-
Prefer Fembots myself. They can shoot bullets from their knockers and everything.
-
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
What the truth being that the club could not afford to bankroll his signings any more and needed to cut their cloth accordingly.
How dare they look at the finances of the club and make a rational decision. We should have just kept spending, spending, spending and ended up in administration. That's what MON wanted.
Why would we have ended up in administration? Randy's a wealthy man so could have afforded it if he saw fit. He decided not to and as it's his money he's within his rights but the truth is things changed.
-
You are not the droid we're looking for.
-
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
What the truth being that the club could not afford to bankroll his signings any more and needed to cut their cloth accordingly.
How dare they look at the finances of the club and make a rational decision. We should have just kept spending, spending, spending and ended up in administration. That's what MON wanted.
Why would we have ended up in administration? Randy's a wealthy man so could have afforded it if he saw fit. He decided not to and as it's his money he's within his rights but the truth is things changed.
The change had come a lot sooner in the summer than when he chose to throw the toys out though. His timing was rotten, and his purchases were the reason the change was necessary.
-
nice to see the media pubehead ass lickers gone quiet . Where are you Oliver c**t .
-
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
What the truth being that the club could not afford to bankroll his signings any more and needed to cut their cloth accordingly.
How dare they look at the finances of the club and make a rational decision. We should have just kept spending, spending, spending and ended up in administration. That's what MON wanted.
Why would we have ended up in administration? Randy's a wealthy man so could have afforded it if he saw fit. He decided not to and as it's his money he's within his rights but the truth is things changed.
I think chris there's some truth in that, mon said they shared different visions in the end and I think randy pulling the plug on spending and the arrival or Faulkner probably tipped mon over the edge and he walked- I do not think that he planned to go in the week of the new season to cause massive upheaval, I just think something tipped him over the edge and he'd had enough .
I do however think he should have gone earlier as he had taken the club as far as he could in my view.
-
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
What the truth being that the club could not afford to bankroll his signings any more and needed to cut their cloth accordingly.
How dare they look at the finances of the club and make a rational decision. We should have just kept spending, spending, spending and ended up in administration. That's what MON wanted.
Why would we have ended up in administration? Randy's a wealthy man so could have afforded it if he saw fit. He decided not to and as it's his money he's within his rights but the truth is things changed.
The change had come a lot sooner in the summer than when he chose to throw the toys out though. His timing was rotten, and his purchases were the reason the change was necessary.
That's not what I asked, though. I questioned why we were destined for administration.
-
Is the opinion that everything is MON's fault really "Villa fans orthodoxy"?
-
His purchases were sactioned by idiots. He bought badly at times, no doubt. The trust he was given and the reasoning for it was criminal for a football club.
It's not like we stopped spending either, or paying ludicrous wages. Bent, Shay Given, Alan Hutton, Jenas, N'Zogbia. We aren't talking about small amounts off money there.
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
That is the mantra but Villa are a club which has a turnover of £100m and television income is about to rise by 60% (2014), so how come they can only sign Football League players these days.
And in the end we have to decide whether Villa's financial position was so uniquely terrible that the club needed to take a huge gamble with relegation to put it right.
If the answer is yes, then those responsible cannot be given the fig-leaf of being called naive, they have to be considered criminally culpable.
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
Yes dave, but he was only appointed as chief executive in may 2010 and mon left weeks later .-
The club are very pleased to announce that all round top man Paul Faulkner has been appointed as the club's Chief Executive.
The announcement was made on the Official Site a few short moments ago.
Speaking briefly in the announcement Randy said:
'I'm very gratified to announce the appointment of Paul as Chief Executive. His involvement with all aspects of the club combined with his tireless commitment makes him, in my judgement, a sound and promising choice.'
Paul added:
'I am both very excited and very humbled to have been appointed. It is a real honour and privilege to have been involved with this great club and I look forward to starting to prepare for the 2010-2011 season and beyond.'
-
Still think that Post-Sunderland, MON's reputation will remain intact.
The supporters will start booing, he'll walk and his journalist mate's will say that they were 'Impatient bastards who hounded him out.'
-
so how come they can only sign Football League players these days.
Are El Ahmadi, Brett Holman and Ron Vlaar football league players?
EDIT - And Benteke! Can't believe I forgot to list him!
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
That is the mantra but Villa are a club which has a turnover of £100m and television income is about to rise by 60% (2014), so how come they can only sign Football League players these days.
And in the end we have to decide whether Villa's financial position was so uniquely terrible that the club needed to take a huge gamble with relegation to put it right.
If the answer is yes, then those responsible cannot be given the fig-leaf of being called naive, they have to be considered criminally culpable.
They don't though, do they?
-
and signing like Ashley Young from the football league are fine and that was not *these days*
-
Clearly spending had to be reined in due to the profligacy of the MON era.
And no, it's not just his fault at all. However this thread is about MON's reputation or 'legend'.
Randy and Co have already been (sometimes rightly) hammered for it whereas outside of this club MON has been as Teflon.
-
He'll walk out and make an excuse before Sunderland pull the trigger.
If I was Sunderland I would be checking him every day he comes into work to make sure he isn't carrying a wire. I would also be tape recording any conversation anybody from the club has with him and keeping the tapes in a very secure and secret place in case his people try to break in to get them. He's worse than Nixon I tell ya !
-
I looked in on the main Sunderland forum this morning, and they seemed to have convinced themselves that the problem is that whilst Walford when there with MON, John Robertson chose to retire.
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
That is the mantra but Villa are a club which has a turnover of £100m and television income is about to rise by 60% (2014), so how come they can only sign Football League players these days.
And in the end we have to decide whether Villa's financial position was so uniquely terrible that the club needed to take a huge gamble with relegation to put it right.
If the answer is yes, then those responsible cannot be given the fig-leaf of being called naive, they have to be considered criminally culpable.
They don't though, do they?
Thanks for that reminder that any reasoned argument can be avoided with a quibble.
So concision it is, then.
But truly, setting aside all pedantry, one really can't help but feel, after considered observation, that Villa's squad seems rather replete with the sort of cheap players, whose potential one can't help having doubts about.
When there are squad players lacking even a Wiki entry, one can't help but feel that a club of Aston Villa's indubitable status, is being rather modest in its aspirations.
Cheeseparing even!
-
I looked in on the main Sunderland forum this morning, and they seemed to have convinced themselves that the problem is that whilst Walford when there with MON, John Robertson chose to retire.
f
Clutching at straws, robbo was no Peter Taylor and mon is definitely no cloughie!
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
That is the mantra but Villa are a club which has a turnover of £100m and television income is about to rise by 60% (2014), so how come they can only sign Football League players these days.
And in the end we have to decide whether Villa's financial position was so uniquely terrible that the club needed to take a huge gamble with relegation to put it right.
If the answer is yes, then those responsible cannot be given the fig-leaf of being called naive, they have to be considered criminally culpable.
They don't though, do they?
Thanks for that reminder that any reasoned argument can be avoided with a quibble.
So concision it is, then.
But truly, setting aside all pedantry, one really can't help but feel, after considered observation, that Villa's squad seems rather replete with the sort of cheap players, whose potential one can't help having doubts about.
When there are squad players lacking even a Wiki entry, one can't help but feel that a club of Aston Villa's indubitable status, is being rather modest in its aspirations.
Cheeseparing even!
Goodness gracious , so many words there I've never even heard of , have another plum sir, I thought you were Leonard Sachs for a minute!
Ps- welcome to the site by the way - your posts are interesting ..
-
one really can't help but feel, after considered observation, that Villa's squad seems rather replete with the sort of cheap players, whose potential one can't help having doubts about
Are you Prince William?
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever. And to correct the above oft-repeated error - Faulkner arrived with Randy.
That is the mantra but Villa are a club which has a turnover of £100m and television income is about to rise by 60% (2014), so how come they can only sign Football League players these days.
And in the end we have to decide whether Villa's financial position was so uniquely terrible that the club needed to take a huge gamble with relegation to put it right.
If the answer is yes, then those responsible cannot be given the fig-leaf of being called naive, they have to be considered criminally culpable.
They don't though, do they?
Thanks for that reminder that any reasoned argument can be avoided with a quibble.
It's not just a quibble though is it? You talk about "orthodox opinions" that are wrong, and then spout a cliche that Aston Villa only sign football league players nowadays which is patently untrue. Also, didn't Villa take on an international scout this summer? He's hardly going to be scouting at Aldershot is he?
-
and signing like Ashley Young from the football league are fine and that was not *these days*
Watford were in the prem when we signed him
-
I looked in on the main Sunderland forum this morning, and they seemed to have convinced themselves that the problem is that whilst Walford when there with MON, John Robertson chose to retire.
f
Clutching at straws, robbo was no Peter Taylor and mon is definitely no cloughie!
I think so too. Although we wondered something similar when Houllier went through a string of bad results, with Phil Thompson's influence being discussed.
-
But truly, setting aside all pedantry, one really can't help but feel, after considered observation, that Villa's squad seems rather replete with the sort of cheap players, whose potential one can't help having doubts about.
Are you the Duke of Kent?
-
You can't argue with the vocab. It's amazeballs.
-
You can't argue with the vocab. It's amazeballs.
It's scintillating , absorbing and extraordinary!
-
one really can't help but feel, after considered observation, that Villa's squad seems rather replete with the sort of cheap players, whose potential one can't help having doubts about
Can you do double entendres too ? You could be the next voice on adverts for Crabbies Ginger Beer.
-
Using words that haven't been spake since Victorian times can't hide the fact one is speaking directly through ones mudwhistle.
Believe me, I've tried.
Ruthless, this lot.
-
You can't argue with the vocab. It's amazeballs.
It's scintillating , absorbing and extraordinary!
A contributor called Villadroid
Found himself slightly annoyed
Mocked with derision
At his lack of concision
He mockingly snootily reploid
-
I think his thesaurus is terrible. And terrible.
-
You can't argue with the vocab. It's amazeballs.
It's scintillating , absorbing and extraordinary!
A contributor called Villadroid
Found himself slightly annoyed
Mocked with derision
At his lack of concision
He mockingly snootily reploid
Very entertaining !
Are you our new Xmas present?
-
A villadroid argued with zeal.
And used flowery speech to conceal
That its really MONs fault.
That there's naught in the vault.
And his shabbiness now is revealed.
Step to me punk and you're gonna get served.
-
You can't argue with the vocab. It's amazeballs.
It's scintillating , absorbing and extraordinary!
A contributor called Villadroid
Found himself slightly annoyed
Mocked with derision
At his lack of concision
He mockingly snootily reploid
Are you John Betjeman ?
-
A villadroid argued with zeal.
And used flowery speech to conceal
That its really MONs fault.
That there's naught in the vault.
And his shabbiness now is revealed.
Step to me punk and you're gonna get served.
Poetry in motion maz!
-
You can't argue with the vocab. It's amazeballs.
It's scintillating , absorbing and extraordinary!
A contributor called Villadroid
Found himself slightly annoyed
Mocked with derision
At his lack of concision
He mockingly snootily reploid
Are you John Betjeman ?
Pam ayres?
-
one really can't help but feel, after considered observation, that Villa's squad seems rather replete with the sort of cheap players, whose potential one can't help having doubts about
Complete and utter bosh young man.
-
Football fans were never well spoken back in my day, apart from Doug and Sir William Dugdale.
Is this going to turn into a fully fledged bust up with the well spoken newbie Villadroid or is it a mere Contretemps ?
If it's the latter, I blame MON.
-
I don't like Mondays. I blame MON.
-
I don't like Mondays. I blame MON.
Well they are named after him.
-
A villadroid argued with zeal.
And used flowery speech to conceal
That its really MONs fault.
That there's naught in the vault.
And his shabbiness now is revealed.
Step to me punk and you're gonna get served.
A Villadroid who had him some moxy
Agreed that his team's a bit poxy
But scapegoat's the game
When they hand out the shame
And he's not happy with that orthodoxy
-
A villadroid argued with zeal.
And used flowery speech to conceal
That its really MONs fault.
That there's naught in the vault.
And his shabbiness now is revealed.
Step to me punk and you're gonna get served.
A Villadroid who had him some moxy
Agreed that his team's a bit poxy
But scapegoat's the game
When they hand out the shame
And he's not happy with that orthodoxy
Scapegoat? Alas there's no sign.
Of a man whose MO is resign.
When the going gets tough
He is gone in a puff.
And his lawsuits ne'er too far behind.
So speak no more of this bolter.
Who left us adrift at the altar.
With a few days to go.
To the start of the show.
He was tanning his arse in Gibraltar.
-
There was a young robot called VillaDroid,
Who could not be assessed by Sigmund Freud,
For he spake all in riddles,
And mostly all piddle,
Before he sat down too long and got haemorrhoids.
-
I don't like Mondays. I blame MON.
Well they are named after him.
Monarchists, Money Lenders, Mongoose, Monasteries, Mongo in Blazing Saddles, Monkeys, Monosyllables, Monotheists, Monetarists, Monks, Monetarist Monks, Monetarist Money Lending Monks, My God he has a lot to answer for !
(http://www.comedy.co.uk/images/library/people/180x200/l/legacy_reginald_perrin_jimmy.jpg)
-
Mon kingdoms were political establishments by the Mon-speaking people that ruled large sections of present-day Myanmar (Burma) at various times in the last 1200 years. The kingdoms in chronological order are the Thaton Kingdom (9th. century–1057), the Hanthawaddy Kingdom (1287–1539), and the Restored Hanthawaddy Kingdom (1740–1757).
-
Where's that boss eyed bloke from That's Life when you need him?
Has he been implicated in the Savile scandal yet? He looked a wrong 'un.
-
Anyone with any sense can see now, why he left, because he knew the truth Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
What the truth being that the club could not afford to bankroll his signings any more and needed to cut their cloth accordingly.
How dare they look at the finances of the club and make a rational decision. We should have just kept spending, spending, spending and ended up in administration. That's what MON wanted.
Why would we have ended up in administration? Randy's a wealthy man so could have afforded it if he saw fit. He decided not to and as it's his money he's within his rights but the truth is things changed.
Perhaps administration is a little harsh, but Lerner could not have continued to allow MON to spend money on frankly average players. It's his club and his decision to pull the plug. It was MONs decision to chuck his toys out of the pram just before the season started.
Frankly both MON and Randy were to blame. Randy for allowing MON to spend apparently unchecked and MoN for the reasons many times stated.
-
There was once a not so young man named Martin
Who was lambasted for his sudden departin'
He said nothin' specific
'Cos he thinks he's teriffic
But we know he's a C***.
-
Where's that boss eyed bloke from That's Life when you need him?
Has he been implicated in the Savile scandal yet? He looked a wrong 'un.
Doc Cox?
-
Think he was called Cyril Fletcher.
-
A villadroid argued with zeal.
And used flowery speech to conceal
That its really MONs fault.
That there's naught in the vault.
And his shabbiness now is revealed.
Step to me punk and you're gonna get served.
A Villadroid who had him some moxy
Agreed that his team's a bit poxy
But scapegoat's the game
When they hand out the shame
And he's not happy with that orthodoxy
Scapegoat? Alas there's no sign.
Of a man whose MO is resign.
When the going gets tough
He is gone in a puff.
And his lawsuits ne'er too far behind.
So speak no more of this bolter.
Who left us adrift at the altar.
With a few days to go.
To the start of the show.
He was tanning his arse in Gibraltar.
That fairytale has some appeal
Because Randy he chose to conceal
He told loyal Villa fools
It's those financial rules
But has gone beyond that in his zeal
-
This is the tale of MON,
At the first sign of strife he was gone,
Given the shit left behind,
It staggers me to find,
He still gives some fans a hard-on.
-
Martin left us at a really bad time
With the finances all up the spout
We've struggled since then
As Randy has shown his failings
But Lambert has got us back on the right track
Yes, I know it doesn't rhyme, but quite factually accurate, I think!
-
Martin O'Neill is a right twat,
He left us a while then the Black Cats,
He's bound to fuck up,
and not win a Cup,
But Pied Piper like his fans follow; Rats.
-
A villadroid argued with zeal.
And used flowery speech to conceal
That its really MONs fault.
That there's naught in the vault.
And his shabbiness now is revealed.
Step to me punk and you're gonna get served.
A Villadroid who had him some moxy
Agreed that his team's a bit poxy
But scapegoat's the game
When they hand out the shame
And he's not happy with that orthodoxy
Scapegoat? Alas there's no sign.
Of a man whose MO is resign.
When the going gets tough
He is gone in a puff.
And his lawsuits ne'er too far behind.
So speak no more of this bolter.
Who left us adrift at the altar.
With a few days to go.
To the start of the show.
He was tanning his arse in Gibraltar.
That fairytale has some appeal
Because Randy he chose to conceal
He told loyal Villa fools
It's those financial rules
But has gone beyond that in his zeal
It seems that it's all very handy.
To blame all our woes upon Randy
But this thread concerns MON
And how he did us wrong.
But you still think him sweeter than candy.
Nobody absolves Mr Lerner
But its not like he's here for an earner.
We were bleeding cash
But we'll rise from the ash.
With plans that have never been firmer.
Now off to the Mackems with haste.
They will tell you of similar waste.
The lustre has faded.
Their joy is downgraded.
An all too familiar taste.
For they too have a yank that gave freely.
To the legend to wheelie and dealie.
The result is the same.
What they see is so lame.
So we're seeing a theme all too clearly.
-
Kind of like the H & V version of 8 Mile.
-
Kind of like the H & V version of 8 Mile.
Droppin' science on O'Neill's over-reliance (of his first eleven).
-
Everybody in the H & V,
wave your mother fucking hands if you're down with me.
Everybody in the H & V wave your mother fuckin's if you're down with me.
Huh.
I'm Mazrim, from the east of Brum.
Got a silver tongue.
When I get my rhymes on it's fun.
Haven't rhymed lately.
Not since the 80s.
I'm like a rap pirate with me mateys.
Dont hate me.
Villadroid wants to step to me.
Get next to me.
But his skills are all 19th century.
From a dictionary.
So I neutralize like a vasectomy.
Uh.
I think this guys screws are loose. He's confused.
With the man whose hair is pubes.
Who cut loose.
Now he be ragin on the billionaire.
Maybe he bought his shares.
I dont care. He put his money there.
He didn't lickety splitty and get strictly legitty with a wickety writty for 2 million and fitty.
Looks like Alex Polizzi and the Mackems are shitty, getting nitty and gritty and so he'll lickety splitty.
Word!
I'm done *throws mic down*.
-
Mart O’Neill arrived with some zeal
At Villa, Randy held some appeal.
The money he spent;
and the squad minus Bent
are still on an uneven keel.
The media did come out all flush,
Having talked up MON’s skills with a push;
but now he’s come down
and acting the clown
The reporters do now so blush.
-
Everybody in the H & V,
wave your mother fucking hands if you're down with me.
Everybody in the H & V wave your mother fuckin's if you're down with me.
Huh.
I'm Mazrim, from the east of Brum.
Got a silver tongue.
When I get my rhymes on it's fun.
Haven't rhymed lately.
Not since the 80s.
I'm like a rap pirate with me mateys.
Dont hate me.
Villadroid wants to step to me.
Get next to me.
But his skills are all 19th century.
From a dictionary.
So I neutralize like a vasectomy.
Uh.
I think this guys screws are loose. He's confused.
With the man whose hair is pubes.
Who cut loose.
Now he be ragin on the billionaire.
Maybe he bought his shares.
I dont care. He put his money there.
He didn't lickety splitty and get strictly legitty with a wickety writty for 2 million and fitty.
Looks like Alex Polizzi and the Mackems are shitty, getting nitty and gritty and so he'll lickety splitty.
Word!
I'm done *throws mic down*.
I reckon you'd get on right well with that Tulisa bird, what with your Urban roots.
-
Everybody in the H & V,
wave your mother fucking hands if you're down with me.
Everybody in the H & V wave your mother fuckin's if you're down with me.
Huh.
I'm Mazrim, from the east of Brum.
Got a silver tongue.
When I get my rhymes on it's fun.
Haven't rhymed lately.
Not since the 80s.
I'm like a rap pirate with me mateys.
Dont hate me.
Villadroid wants to step to me.
Get next to me.
But his skills are all 19th century.
From a dictionary.
So I neutralize like a vasectomy.
Uh.
I think this guys screws are loose. He's confused.
With the man whose hair is pubes.
Who cut loose.
Now he be ragin on the billionaire.
Maybe he bought his shares.
I dont care. He put his money there.
He didn't lickety splitty and get strictly legitty with a wickety writty for 2 million and fitty.
Looks like Alex Polizzi and the Mackems are shitty, getting nitty and gritty and so he'll lickety splitty.
Word!
I'm done *throws mic down*.
Those 80s rappers of the old school
They were so down and so cool
I was there when it all began
And they were never caught sucking up to the man
Mazrim's gone and out of that scene
He' no Tinie Tempah or Dr Green
He's go no ammo and he's got no gun
Just another wannabe 2Pac - minus one
-
Everybody in the H & V,
wave your mother fucking hands if you're down with me.
Everybody in the H & V wave your mother fuckin's if you're down with me.
Huh.
I'm Mazrim, from the east of Brum.
Got a silver tongue.
When I get my rhymes on it's fun.
Haven't rhymed lately.
Not since the 80s.
I'm like a rap pirate with me mateys.
Dont hate me.
Villadroid wants to step to me.
Get next to me.
But his skills are all 19th century.
From a dictionary.
So I neutralize like a vasectomy.
Uh.
I think this guys screws are loose. He's confused.
With the man whose hair is pubes.
Who cut loose.
Now he be ragin on the billionaire.
Maybe he bought his shares.
I dont care. He put his money there.
He didn't lickety splitty and get strictly legitty with a wickety writty for 2 million and fitty.
Looks like Alex Polizzi and the Mackems are shitty, getting nitty and gritty and so he'll lickety splitty.
Word!
I'm done *throws mic down*.
Those 80s rappers of the old school
They were so down and so cool
I was there when it all began
And they were never caught sucking up to the man
Mazrim's gone and out of that scene
He' no Tinie Tempah or Dr Green
He's go no ammo and he's got no gun
Just another wannabe 2Pac - minus one
Who will win the battle to become Vanilla Ice?
Yo VP lets kick it.....ahem.....
-
Villadroid has made a memorable start to his time on here, both he and maz have been excellent with their witty retorts and impossible to separate- I would call it a draw.
-
Where's that boss eyed bloke from That's Life when you need him?
Has he been implicated in the Savile scandal yet? He looked a wrong 'un.
Doc Cox?
Robert "Doc" Cox, TV journalist and musician aka Ivor Biggun.
[/youtube]
-
and signing like Ashley Young from the football league are fine and that was not *these days*
Watford were in the prem when we signed him
oh right , they didnt go down then .. unusual for struggling teams to let go of their best players
-
Villadroid has made a memorable start to his time on here, both he and maz have been excellent with their witty retorts and impossible to separate- I would call it a draw.
You can't be serious?
-
If Maz is going to do a rap song, surely it should be "I wish was a little bit taller" by Skee-Lo?
-
Villadroid has made a memorable start to his time on here, both he and maz have been excellent with their witty retorts and impossible to separate- I would call it a draw.
You can't be serious?
Code violation mr mazrim, game set and match to mr villadroid !
-
If Maz is going to do a rap song, surely it should be "I wish was a little bit taller" by Skee-Lo?
Dissed.
-
Thanks to Maz it was a good laugh!
I loved your altar and Gibraltar rhyme. :)
-
At least it didn't falter.
-
Every now and again a seemingly mundane thread burst into delicious life, good work fellas!
-
There once was a Manager called O'Neill
Who was a fucking wanker
A FUCKING WANKER I SAY
Doesn't rhyme, isn't a poem but Expresses my feelings nicely.
-
You've made a powerful enemy of average height Risso.
And I decree that all arguments/debates and shenanigans are settled by Limerick/ Haiku/ Rap battles from this day hence.
-
You've made a powerful enemy of average height Risso.
And I decree that all arguments/debates and shenanigans are settled by Limerick/ Haiku/ Rap battles from this day hence.
All further arguments could be settle by a "rick-off"
-
You've made a powerful enemy of average height Risso.
And I decree that all arguments/debates and shenanigans are settled by Limerick/ Haiku/ Rap battles from this day hence.
Mazrim is not tall
Risso has upset Mazrim
O'Neill is Judas
-
Maz spake with a rhyme tis true
But mention his height and he slew
His wit is his knife
But the bane of his life
Was that he was a dwarf
-
Need I remind you again
That I am in fact five foot ten
Now peter for reals
Is not that in high heels
So how you like dem apples then?
-
I'm sure you're a 5 ft pup
And that your house is tiny egg cup
But bring it to me
And everyone will see
That I'll buss you up,paruuupppp puppp puppp
-
Risso's jibe called on Maz to come forth,
And pick up his tools and head north,
He said "All this frontin',
will force me a huntin'"
But beware of the Manx Whicker Dwarf.
-
The boys on here are all rhyming
Which isn't exactly good timing
As we continue to slide down
As the results of a clown
Whose spending uncontrolled went away smiling.
-
Our American guy took a punt
On a man we presumed excellent
When he spent all the cash
He inevitably dashed
And confirmed to us all he's an arse.
-
When Maz was particularly small
Martin left Villa to fall
We never knew why
Though Villadawg did cry
Singing "MON 'til I die."
At the abuse of his height
Maz offered to fight
A giant from the Isle of Man
But as he got near
Lil' Maz filled with fear
Running back to Snow White for a new plan.
-
Terribad.
-
Every now and again a seemingly mundane thread burst into delicious life, good work fellas!
You are in trouble now. O'Neil's going to sue you for calling a thread in his name mundane!
-
Mondane.
-
Jump! Jump!
Not3bad'll make ya
Jump! Jump!
Bad3not'll make ya
Jump...
I'll get me coat.
-
You can't keep spending more than your income and you can't rely on the benevolence of your owner forever.
Is this a Villa thread or a transcript of Angela Merkel talking to Greece / Spain / Ireland?
-
This thread will go for ages and ages
Already clocked 62 pages
The legend of MON
how nothing he won
And no mention of those Spurs wages.
-
Fair play to the nu-droid but Mazrim in particular. Those exchanges should be put in fanzine. Fantastic word-play and not a Green, Damon or Brian, in sight.
-
There once was a man called Maz
Who's height was really quite bad
Tall steps you see
were his enemy
He looks like a minituare pony
-
I won't be taking the piss, me.
Like Maz, I'm not very big, see?
Though Riss may be tall,
And handsome an' all,
Intellectually he's a pygmy.
-
There once was a man called Mark Fletcher.
Who was carried away on a stretcher.
Three weeks in IC.
Cos of little old me.
He won't dis me again, I betcha.
-
B-lose have got an actual midget on the firm. They made me promise not to tell 'all them down the Villa'.
Oops.
-
There was an old man from the 'wood
Who struggled to be understood
Talks of zonal defence
with a lack of credence
He'd be as clever as me if he could
-
I work for a Washington [the original one] based company and many are Sunderland fans, I was up there yesterday and here is a flavour for there thoughts on MON
"He always plays the same players no matter what!"
"He hardly ever uses his subs and when he does its always too late in the game"
"He doesnt seem to like any of our youngsters"
"He has apparently said to the board that he wants more money to buy more players, but our bench is full of players he never picks"
"His style of play is so bloody boring I'm thinking of not renewing my season ticket next season, I had asked myself what I was doing there the other week!"
"He is like a 90's manager stuck in a timewarp"
All those were honest thoughts from the Sunderland fans I spoke to yesterday
-
Where have i seen all those comments before!!!!!!
Oh on here ....silly me!
-
How do Sunderland's wages compare to Spurs though?
-
they have not mentioned he plays his fave players even If they are in the wrong position or unfit/tired.
-
The lack of a recognized right back doesn't appear to be an issue. They still have a long way to go yet.
-
I work for a Washington [the original one] based company and many are Sunderland fans, I was up there yesterday and here is a flavour for there thoughts on MON
"He always plays the same players no matter what!"
"He hardly ever uses his subs and when he does its always too late in the game"
"He doesnt seem to like any of our youngsters"
"He has apparently said to the board that he wants more money to buy more players, but our bench is full of players he never picks"
"His style of play is so bloody boring I'm thinking of not renewing my season ticket next season, I had asked myself what I was doing there the other week!"
"He is like a 90's manager stuck in a timewarp"
All those were honest thoughts from the Sunderland fans I spoke to yesterday
Doesn't rhyme or scan. Poor effort.
-
I work for a Washington [the original one] based company and many are Sunderland fans, I was up there yesterday and here is a flavour for there thoughts on MON
"He always plays the same players no matter what!"
"He hardly ever uses his subs and when he does its always too late in the game"
"He doesnt seem to like any of our youngsters"
"He has apparently said to the board that he wants more money to buy more players, but our bench is full of players he never picks"
"His style of play is so bloody boring I'm thinking of not renewing my season ticket next season, I had asked myself what I was doing there the other week!"
"He is like a 90's manager stuck in a timewarp"
All those were honest thoughts from the Sunderland fans I spoke to yesterday
Doesn't rhyme or scan. Poor effort.
It does if you say it in a North East accent!
-
"He has apparently said to the board that he wants more money to buy more players, but our bench is full of players he never picks"
So what happens when the board tell him he has to offload some of these players he never picks before he can buy? I think I might have an inkling...
-
Can anyone offer any insight into why Mon's resignation is seen as a betrayal and yet Ron Saunders' resignation over money, during the run up to Villa's finest hour, is not?
Saunders even went to the Birmingham City but no one blamed him, they blamed the board.
The consequences for Villa as a result of the resignation were significant to say the least.
So why the double-standard?
-
Can anyone offer any insight into why Mon's resignation is seen as a betrayal and yet Ron Saunders' resignation over money, during the run up to Villa's finest hour, is not?
Saunders even went to the Birmingham City but no one blamed him, they blamed the board.
The consequences for Villa as a result of the resignation were significant to say the least.
So why the double-standard?
Because nobody knows why Saunders really left and his legacy was a bit more than huge debt.
-
Saunders even went to the Birmingham City but no one blamed him
Because he got them relegated.
And as part of a special BOGOF deal, he took Albion down in the same season.
What possible reason would there be to blame him for doing that?
with apologies for not getting any of the above to rhyme
-
I haven't read any of this thread since page 6. Can someone cover the salient points for me so I don't have to read all the rest please?
Has anyone mentioned Moscow yet?
-
Has anyone mentioned Moscow yet?
Yes. It was generally agreed that if Hitler had pressed his attack in 1941 the Russian campaign would have ended swiftly.
-
Can anyone offer any insight into why Mon's resignation is seen as a betrayal and yet Ron Saunders' resignation over money, during the run up to Villa's finest hour, is not?
Saunders even went to the Birmingham City but no one blamed him, they blamed the board.
The consequences for Villa as a result of the resignation were significant to say the least.
So why the double-standard?
Do you think crossing to the dark side would be so easily forgiven these days?
Because nobody knows why Saunders really left and his legacy was a bit more than huge debt.
-
He wasn't forgiven for a long time. It took a good few years before he became the elder statesman figure he now enjoys.
-
He wasn't forgiven for a long time. It took a good few years before he became the elder statesman figure he now enjoys.
That's very true. Remember the song 'there's a circus in the town, ronnie saunders is the clown' I was quite suprised when I started reading H&V online ten years ago or so to see that he was so well remembered by Villa fans.
-
He wasn't forgiven for a long time. It took a good few years before he became the elder statesman figure he now enjoys.
That's very true. Remember the song 'there's a circus in the town, ronnie saunders is the clown' I was quite suprised when I started reading H&V online ten years ago or so to see that he was so well remembered by Villa fans.
I was at the game on 10th February 1982 (Villa1-1Southampton) in the week Saunders resigned and the chants were all for Saunders and against the Bendalls.
-
I was at the game on 17th February 1982 (Villa 1 Spurs 1) and in the words of one of the lads who ran on the pitch with a pro-Saunders banner the previous week, "I'd fucking strangle him with it now."
-
I was at the game on 17th February 1982 (Villa 1 Spurs 1) and in the words of one of the lads who ran on the pitch with a pro-Saunders banner the previous week, "I'd fucking strangle him with it now."
So it seems that the fans were okay with his resignation but not with his destination.
-
Seems that way.
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
Brings us right back to the question of whether Ellis would have been naive enough in the first place to have sat back and bankrolled some of O'Neill's more extravagant transfers
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
Brings us right back to the question of whether Ellis would have been naive enough in the first place to have sat back and bankrolled some of O'Neill's more extravagant transfers
He did give Gregory the green light to sign Dublin and Merson (As good as they were) for big money at an age where there wouldn't have been any resale value. So i'm not so sure.
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
There are many on here who also give the current owners a huge share of the blame for allowing MON to spend, spend, spend with no apparent checks or balances.
I for one give RL et al. a massive chunk of the blame for our current financial position, and also for making one of the most bizzare management appointments in the history of history
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
There are many on here who also give the current owners a huge share of the blame for allowing MON to spend, spend, spend with no apparent checks or balances.
I for one give RL et al. a massive chunk of the blame for our current financial position, and also for making one of the most bizzare management appointments in the history of history
The appointments of Houllier and Mcleish were two absolute stinking decisions. The bankrolling of MoN signings though I dunno if I can say that was Lerner's 'fault'. At the time he was backing the manager financially and we as fans were happy. In the cases of Milner,Downing and Young there were plenty who reckoned we'd paid over the odds yet we had good performances and made handsome profits on all three. On the flipside there are the signings who turned out shite, but it's all with the benefit of hindsight. I think Lerner has in general been a lot more good than bad for our club.
-
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
I think you'll find the owner hasn't been exonerated, but as has been stated, this thread is about MON, not Randy Lerner. Also, when MON initially left, the world at large certainly did put all the blame at the door of the owner, as well as many of the Villa fans on here.
Just out of interest, would you have MON back here now?
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
Doug can say whatever he likes, but the fact is that Saunders built the best team in Europe and in doing so making a profit on transfers. I'd also say it's a very strange Villa supporter who wouldn't have a good word to say for Ron Saunders yet seems to regard Martin O'Neill as beyond criticism.
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
Brings us right back to the question of whether Ellis would have been naive enough in the first place to have sat back and bankrolled some of O'Neill's more extravagant transfers
Isn't it odd how perceptions change over the years? Deadly is seen as some sort of elder statesman to the club now, yet ten years ago his name was mud on this site. Remember Arsenal a couple of years ago outside Finsbury Park tube? As you said at the time, that wouldn't have happened 5 years before.
-
I would never look at Ellis's time through rose coloured spectacles, but i'm 99% certain he wouldn't have appointed McCatpiss.
He wasn't THAT out of touch with supporters.
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
Doug can say whatever he likes, but the fact is that Saunders built the best team in Europe and in doing so making a profit on transfers. I'd also say it's a very strange Villa supporter who wouldn't have a good word to say for Ron Saunders yet seems to regard Martin O'Neill as beyond criticism.
That would be a very strange supporter indeed but I can't say I have ever met one.
Sounds like a straw man to me.
-
Remember Arsenal a couple of years ago outside Finsbury Park tube? As you said at the time, that wouldn't have happened 5 years before.
Not sure what would have happened first if we'd found ourselves in that situation 5 years previously - us chucking bricks through the window of his roller or him ordering the chauffer to run us over...
-
Sounds like a straw man to me.
I take it back, we ARE in 2005.
-
I was at the game on 17th February 1982 (Villa 1 Spurs 1) and in the words of one of the lads who ran on the pitch with a pro-Saunders banner the previous week, "I'd fucking strangle him with it now."
So it seems that the fans were okay with his resignation but not with his destination.
That's exactly how it was. At the Southampton game all the chants were for Bendal to go, then at the Blues game just before he was apponited manager (as I remember) the chant was 'you must be fucking mad, saunders, saunders'
-
Really don't think he will be there next season,
and has finally been shown up for what he is, no imagination, no style, functional dreary old fashioned stuck in the 1970' type football
He was great at Villa for the first 18 months, then the predictable football started, had some great days out on the back of MON, but it all ended in tears for me, glad he's gone and won't be sad when he himself gets his cumupance, which is not far away
Even the press are beginning to catch on now, and he is being seeing as an old dinosaur in football management nowadays,
Your times up mr O'neil, just a matter of time
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
-
Can anyone offer any insight into why Mon's resignation is seen as a betrayal and yet Ron Saunders' resignation over money, during the run up to Villa's finest hour, is not?
Saunders even went to the Birmingham City but no one blamed him, they blamed the board.
The consequences for Villa as a result of the resignation were significant to say the least.
So why the double-standard?
Because nobody knows why Saunders really left and his legacy was a bit more than huge debt.
Dave I'm not sure I'm really any the wiser as to why MON really left yet? As far as I'm aware MON hasn't told his side of the story (is it true that he has he got to wait for a certain period of time before he can actually give his side of the story following the court case? Which he was compensated for).
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.
I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
-
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
So the decision to gazump the Marlon Harewood to Wigan deal by offering him twice the wages was nothing to do with Martin O'Neill?
-
And Doug would never lie...
-
And Doug would never lie...
I'd say the chances of Doug telling a lie are about the same as any other owner.
-
B6 should be renamed "The Conspiracy Theory Stadium"
Why did Saunders leave, why did MON walk, why did we appoint McLeish, why isn`t Bent playing,why didn`t Barry take the penalty ???
So many questions - so few credible answers :)
-
And Doug would never lie...
I'd say the chances of Doug telling a lie are about the same as any other owner.
He is just more adept than others ;)
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.
I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
One of the less famous quotes from Brian Moore on that night it Rotterdam - "The goal from Peter Withe is going to be worth a fortune to them."
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.
I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
One of the less famous quotes from Brian Moore on that night it Rotterdam - "The goal from Peter Withe is going to be worth a fortune to them."
He went on to say during the game that "Tony Barton had said that if Villa won the European Cup it would be like winning the pools, as we would play in the World Club Championship in Tokyo, get to play in exhibition matches as well as going back into the European cup next season, all of which is worth a lot of money."
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.
I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
One of the less famous quotes from Brian Moore on that night it Rotterdam - "The goal from Peter Withe is going to be worth a fortune to them."
He went on to say during the game that "Tony Barton had said that if Villa won the European Cup it would be like winning the pools, as we would play in the World Club Championship in Tokyo, get to play in exhibition matches as well as going back into the European cup next season, all of which is worth a lot of money."
Until Juventus spoiled the party?
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.
I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
It can, if he signs a load of 'aul shite. :) :) :)
Welcome back, Villadawg.
-
Would we have blamed MON so much if Deadly was in charge when he walked out?
According to Doug the club were in financial trouble when he took over, which was due to the spending of the Saunders years.
So in one case Saunders is exonerated and the board is blamed for the financial problems, but MON is blamed for Villa's present financial problems and the owner is exonerated.
Isn't that a double-standard?
I thought Villa's financial problems in the late seventies/early eighties dated back to the North Stand build?
A horrendously managed project if ever there was one.
I do seem to remember that Doug said the pay-structure for the players was unsustainable, and a bit like now, a clear out of those on the better contracts was initiated.
But obviously, the poor financial management can't be blamed on the manager. :)
One of the less famous quotes from Brian Moore on that night it Rotterdam - "The goal from Peter Withe is going to be worth a fortune to them."
He went on to say during the game that "Tony Barton had said that if Villa won the European Cup it would be like winning the pools, as we would play in the World Club Championship in Tokyo, get to play in exhibition matches as well as going back into the European cup next season, all of which is worth a lot of money."
The only proof of that is whether that expected extra income was reflected in the price Villa was sold for.
How much did Doug pay for Villa, pro-rata or otherwise?
-
Doug didn't pay anything in 1982, he just guaranteed the £1m overdraft, then sold everyone he could to pay off the debt.
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
-
Can anyone offer any insight into why Mon's resignation is seen as a betrayal and yet Ron Saunders' resignation over money, during the run up to Villa's finest hour, is not?
So why the double-standard?
OK hang on a second I will try to re-think about MON and see if I can forgive him....nope I can't!
Anyway there is no comparison here. MON spent more money than any other Villa manager and in 4 years won f all where as Ron won 2 Cups and the CHAMPIONSHIP and gave us the team that won the EUROPEAN cup..
-
In order to still feel kindly disposed towards O'Neill you'd have to:
a) think he did an outstanding job (which he didn't)
b) think he spent Lerner's money wisely and carefully (which he didn't)
c) think walking out on us on the brink of a new season wasn't a selfish and vindictive action (which it was).
-
Thanks, all good stuff.
So basically Doug bought a business with debts twice as much as it was worth?
Doesn't sound like a potential cash cow to me.
-
This isn't about Doug, although he did put on a nice spread in a director's box now and then (so I've heard).
MON walked out leaving his creation to burn or be rescued in time, either way. No good for Masterchef, professional or otherwise.
Ron created a perfect souffle which sank eventually as they all do, but at least we remembered what he had created.
But Villadroid's come up with a culinary clue to bridging the gap between fans and club management this festive season.
...he knew the truth - Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
Yes! An overdue barbecue at VP. Sausages and everything else to do with guts, on the griddle. Half time at home matches this Christmas? I think the time is right.
Loved the poetry earlier in the thread, superbly entertaining stuff from all concerned. Thanks!
-
This isn't about Doug, although he did put on a nice spread in a director's box now and then (so I've heard).
MON walked out leaving his creation to burn or be rescued in time, either way. No good for Masterchef, professional or otherwise.
Ron created a perfect souffle which sank eventually as they all do, but at least we remembered what he had created.
But Villadroid's come up with a culinary clue to bridging the gap between fans and club management this festive season.
...he knew the truth - Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
Yes! An overdue barbecue at VP. Sausages and everything else to do with guts, on the griddle. Half time at home matches this Christmas? I think the time is right.
Loved the poetry earlier in the thread, superbly entertaining stuff from all concerned. Thanks!
What an offally good idea Louise! If the management have the gall to serve this up I'm sure we'll all be able to get through the entrails of 2012 and move into the new year with hope of less of the tripe we've been given by TSM this year. It's been pretty gut-wrenching, after all and we've all vented our spleen here on H&V.
-
In order to still feel kindly disposed towards O'Neill you'd have to:
a) think he did an outstanding job (which he didn't)
b) think he spent Lerner's money wisely and carefully (which he didn't)
c) think walking out on us on the brink of a new season wasn't a selfish and vindictive action (which it was).
I disagree.
a)No manager has done an outstanding job since Taylor mark one and I still feel kindly to the rest.
b)Lerner was experienced in running a professional sports club and he ran the Browns at a profit, so he was fully aware of the cost of turning the side which O'Leary left behind into Champions League challenges. The Chelsea accounts were available to show what it costs. Krulak said that the club both expected to make a loss and accepted it. So no one stole the the rich kid's lunch money.
c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.
-
What lie was that, then?
Both GH and Ginge- for all their many, many other faults- made it quite clear that they were working within stricter parameters than had gone before, and the wage bill (remember that?) was a big concern.
-
b)Lerner was experienced in running a professional sports club and he ran the Browns at a profit, so he was fully aware of the cost of turning the side which O'Leary left behind into Champions League challenges. The Chelsea accounts were available to show what it costs. Krulak said that the club both expected to make a loss and accepted it. So no one stole the the rich kid's lunch money.
No-one stole anything from anyone. However, O'Neill had a great deal of money to spend and spent a lot of it badly, both in transfer fees and wages. The effect of that waste is still being felt now. Lerner gave O'Neill almost carte blanche (which was a mistake) to spend but he didn't give him carte blanche to spend badly. When Lerner realised what O'Neill was doing he asked the manager to rein it in, quite understandably. For some reason O'Neill found this intolerable.
-
c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.
Don't get the point you're trying to make here at all.
-
This isn't about Doug, although he did put on a nice spread in a director's box now and then (so I've heard).
MON walked out leaving his creation to burn or be rescued in time, either way. No good for Masterchef, professional or otherwise.
Ron created a perfect souffle which sank eventually as they all do, but at least we remembered what he had created.
But Villadroid's come up with a culinary clue to bridging the gap between fans and club management this festive season.
...he knew the truth - Lerner and Faulkner never had the guts to share with the fans.
Yes! An overdue barbecue at VP. Sausages and everything else to do with guts, on the griddle. Half time at home matches this Christmas? I think the time is right.
Loved the poetry earlier in the thread, superbly entertaining stuff from all concerned. Thanks!
What an offally good idea Louise! If the management have the gall to serve this up I'm sure we'll all be able to get through the entrails of 2012 and move into the new year with hope of less of the tripe we've been given by TSM this year. It's been pretty gut-wrenching, after all and we've all vented our spleen here on H&V.
Well, some might think there's burger all to be happy about. Me, I'm expecting the Villa to rise like an enthusiastic er... Burger bun! With wholemeal bits so it's healthy. God, I wish I hadn't started this analogy. Could do so much more with cupcakes...
-
I do love it when people spout opinion as fact.
-
Can someone more savvy than me on technical matters stick up what I wrote about MON the other week for Villa C3PO. Ta.
-
c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.
Don't get the point you're trying to make here at all.
At no point did the club ever prepare the fans for the extent of the cuts. It started off being all about complying with the FFP rules. It has just been one player at a time until the fans reached their own conclusions, which is now presented as if it was always understood.
The last three managers have all colluded in that dirty little trick. Houllier came under a huge amount of pressure due to the consequences of that plan and so did McLeish.
These guys might be richer as a result but the experience did not exactly enhance their reputations.
-
Round and round and round it goes.
Where it stops, nobody knows.
-
I do love it when people spout opinion as fact.
The fact is that that is your opinion.
-
Let's turn this round, VD. Why do you think we should owe MON a favour or be deferential as to what he did here?
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
Crikey, Dave! Without wishing to appear naive, is that true? Where can I read more?
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
Crikey, Dave! Without wishing to appear naive, is that true? Where can I read more?
I'm sure I could sell you a book or two...
-
I should be delighted, Dave. PM on its way.
-
O'Neill was ultimately no better than Gregory.
-
Dave - apparently I don't have permission to PM you. Would you PM me please so I can reply?
-
Dave - apparently I don't have permission to PM you. Would you PM me please so I can reply?
Don't do it, he'll just bag up some old fanzines in sealed bag like they do with the ropey old jazz mags.
-
Dave - apparently I don't have permission to PM you. Would you PM me please so I can reply?
Don't do it, he'll just bag up some old fanzines in sealed bag like they do with the ropey old jazz mags.
At my advanced age (39), old H&V's are now preferable as 'reference' material than some gorgeous young filly with out her bags on, shaming her mother.
-
Let's turn this round, VD. Why do you think we should owe MON a favour or be deferential as to what he did here?
I don't actually, I just contrast the enthusiasm for slagging off MON and the cringing reticence to say anything about Lerner.
It just looks like good old fashioned deference to the sacred rights of capital.
-
Dave - apparently I don't have permission to PM you. Would you PM me please so I can reply?
Don't do it, he'll just bag up some old fanzines in sealed bag like they do with the ropey old jazz mags.
At my advanced age (39), old H&V's are now preferable as 'reference' material than some gorgeous young filly with out her bags on, shaming her mother.
They're more likely to be the mother.
-
Let's turn this round, VD. Why do you think we should owe MON a favour or be deferential as to what he did here?
I don't actually, I just contrast the enthusiasm for slagging off MON and the cringing reticence to say anything about Lerner.
It just looks like good old fashioned deference to the sacred rights of capital.
Capital is dead labor, which, vampire-like, lives only by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labor it sucks
-
c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.
Don't get the point you're trying to make here at all.
At no point did the club ever prepare the fans for the extent of the cuts. It started off being all about complying with the FFP rules. It has just been one player at a time until the fans reached their own conclusions, which is now presented as if it was always understood.
The last three managers have all colluded in that dirty little trick. Houllier came under a huge amount of pressure due to the consequences of that plan and so did McLeish.
These guys might be richer as a result but the experience did not exactly enhance their reputations.
Hello Droid
Realise that you feel you have to get people away from looking at MON's walkout by going through AV's recent history.
Actually, I was imressed at the start and remained so. Not with the exit, though. Still a choker.
Actually, still MON though. If he had been told all that about cutting players and costs by Randy, why wouldn't he have put it out there? Nothing stopping him in August 2010 if he was going to do the walk-out, anyway.
I believe that he was asked what his plans were for various players he had knocking around but whom he hadn't used for months. I think that's reasonable. That's not FFP that's basic, 'who are we paying and what for?' in any industry.
I know you were in VP in 1980 - something, according to a previous post. I'm just left wondering why as a villa fan (or you would not be on here) you are not cheering Lambert on as he seems to be very good at finding players to do the bizz - yes, perhaps even better than MON was. Also, at finding clubs to take promising, unused or under-performing players on loan. Don't see that doing good business is a 'dirty little trick', however.
UTV
-
Can someone more savvy than me on technical matters stick up what I wrote about MON the other week for Villa C3PO. Ta.
It was brilliant, but I cannot find it. Can you remember which thread it was in?
-
Hi Kingshirker
Here is my take on things if you wanted to share it with your fellow fans.
After the recent comments about “rewriting history” then I think it only appropriate to detail what I believe that history to be. When we appointed MON he was very much the right man, at the right time.
We had just parted company with one of the most unpopular managers we have ever had. A walking gaffe, who belittled the club to bolster his own ego about why it wasn’t his fault that we were underachieving and a man who had managed to turn a squad of decent players into racing certainties for relegation the following season. The atmosphere at the club had been poisonous for some time.
In no small part that was also down to our desperately unpopular chairman. A man who tried to expunge our greatest triumphs from the annals of our history as he was still sulking about being kicked off the board just before we achieved them. A man that many fans believed had held us back for years and you would hear plenty of arguments about him lining his own pockets, as well as feeding his own ego, being the only reasons he maintained his position.
So our summer just kept getting better. The pantomime villain chairman agreed to flog the club to an American billionaire and we started to dream of Man City style spending before anyone had heard of Man City style spending. We just needed a figurehead manager to make us relevant again on the back of it. Enter, stage left, MON.
He was well regarded in the game and had been successful at his previous clubs. He was charismatic, he bounced up and down the touchline in a tracksuit and, most importantly of all, he seemed to get us. He walked into the club on a tide of goodwill and into the best working conditions of any Villa manager in living memory.
The first couple of years were fantastic. He had started to put his own team together in that first season and had a real splurge in the transfer market across the course of the second. We finished sixth, scoring a bucket load of goals (mainly from set pieces) and achieved an Intertoto place to give us a shot at European football the next year. Even that year though, although none us were prepared to bemoan it at the time, the first question marks were starting to rear their heads.
At the start of that season we looked short up front and were all speculating as to who the big money, foreign buy might be. A real “bums on seat” player was what we were expecting. Instead we got Marlon Harewood after hijacking a deal at the eleventh hour for his transfer to Wigan. We never did sign any exciting players from the continent in his entire time with us and he was regularly infuriating with his procrastinating over signing players until the last possible moment.
He also got rather lucky. For the first two and a half years of his time with us we could call upon a fit and firing Martin Laursen. A colossal defender, arguably the best in the league over that period, and who was good for a few goals each year as well. It should be noted though that Laursen is a player we would never have signed had it been down to MON. A Dane playing his trade in Italy? Not a chance. What we would have signed was the kind of player we got at the end of the summer deadline that year when he decided that Zat Knight was a better fit for the squad than Gary Cahill.
The third season saw yet more heavy expenditure although, again, none of this went on a striker. By Christmas, our fantastic away form had us looking like outsiders to challenge for the title. We maintained this right until the end of February in fact. This was based on fast counter attacking football.
And then it started to fall apart. Many fans were upset about us throwing our last 32 game in The Uefa Cup against Moscow to chase Champions League football. That we then threw away a two goal lead in the league game against Stoke that weekend only made that irritation worse. Luke Young complained about why we started the season In July if we were to chuck in the towel at the business end of the competition and was quickly ostracised from the first team It then got worse again.
He had rigidly stuck with the same first eleven throughout that season to the point they were out on their feet as March began. We managed to win just two of our last 12 games, falling away from being 8 points clear of fourth placed Arsenal to another sixth place in the league.
In part this was also blamed on his one January capture. Carew was out injured for a period and we needed more goals to capitalise on our fine start. Instead we signed Heskey from Wigan and, to make matters worse, changed our style of play to accommodate the tumbling bear making us a much less potent attacking force. Lest we forget that this was the same window that Sunderland signed Bent from Spurs for not a great deal more by way of fee and a lesser salary.
The first rumblings of discontent had now begun amongst the support. The odd signings, our lack of any Plan B to break down teams that didn’t give us a chance to counter by parking the bus when we were at home and the feeling that we had let our one big chance of Champions League football pass us by. It was that January that Man City wont the lottery and signed Robinho for example.
Perhaps a more football savvy and ruthless board would have chopped him at the end of that year. They may have taken a view that our end of season collapse was unacceptable for a club that had invested as heavily as we had and that the manager should have made better use of the expensive resources, that he had signed, that were at his disposal. However, we didn’t have football men on the board and MON ran the club from top to bottom. Perhaps with that in mind it was understandable that they gave him yet more money and another tilt at it when we had come so close the year before.
The problem was that nothing had changed. The concerns that some had were never addressed. It was the same tired training methods (Walford and Robertson’s grasp of modern coaching techniques leading to them being known as Bibs and Cones by the players). We were still fishing only in the vastly overpriced UK market for players. We signed yet another back four. The style of play did not alter. His stubborn streak was to the fore at this time and he flatly refused to accept a need for change or any criticism of himself.
An example that springs to mind was a home game where we were behind against relegation strugglers and still plodding on with Plan A. The fans got restless and were heartened to finally see Delfouneso start to prepare to come on, suggesting that we were going to change things up front. It was greeted with ironic cheers. The response from the manager was to sit the player down and bring on a midfielder instead. Again, there was plenty of debate here as to whether this was done to prove a point to the fans that were questioning him.
Now some may argue that at the end of that season some Villa fans were way off beam to be questioning the manager openly. We finished sixth again. Got to a cup final and a semi. But, as plenty of us saw it, he had hit his glass ceiling. This was as good as it was ever going to get no matter how much money we let him throw at it.
We made the same substitutions, at the same time every week (Heskey time as it was known). He still wasn’t rotating the players as he had suggested himself he needed to in both previous summers. A lot of expensive squad players he had signed were kicking their heels in the stiffs and not getting a game. For the first time in his reign the board put a brake on expenditure and the fabled “sell to buy” policy began.
It wasn’t quite as it seemed though. What he had actually been told was to shift a bunch of squad players on that weren’t getting near a game. That the Famous Five he mooted in the local paper were pulling down nigh on £300,000 a week in scratch between them made this seem a pretty sensible thing for the board to do. MON’s problem was that these players were on salaries not commensurate with their talent and therefore it proved very difficult to drum up any interest in them.
He clung on until August in the desperate hope that he could get the owner to open the coffers again to bring further new blood in but this time Lerner remained resolute. I could do a whole piece about the why’s and wherefore’s of his departure. The players he wanted, the political wrangling behind the scenes, the Liverpool job etc. I don’t think that is for here though. It won’t interest you. And I know how litigious he can be.
What we can say without question is that he bailed out on us five days before the start of the season. It left us with no time to find a replacement. No time for that replacement to work with the squad. No time for him to make his own signings. It has been debated to death on here as to whether this was a calculated act of spite, designed to cause maximum damage to our season or whether this was, in fact, simply when he realised he was not going to get what he wanted and walked as he did not believe he could therefore do the job justice.
I suppose in summary it depends what you want as to how long you stick with him. Are you ever going to play free flowing, passing football? No you aren’t. With a couple more years, and plenty more money, you might find yourselves as regular mid table finishers who play decent, counter attacking stuff away from home but that is as far as he will take you . And what price do you put on those mid table finishes?
Where you have a real issue is that he doesn’t seem the same bloke that was our manager. He made up for a lot of his tactical naivety with his ability to motivate players. He did very well last season but looked a pale shadow of the guy who breezed into Villa Park a few years ago. If he has lost his mojo for the job then you lose a lot of the good things he brings to the party.
I hope it works out alright for you as I happen to think Sunderland are a decent club and, for all the things I take issue with over his time managing us, it is certainly not a case of it being all bad in his time here. Far from it. Just don’t expect him to go beyond his limitations and, whatever you do, keep a tight grip on your wallet.
-
Show-off.
-
VD, as someone who writes a lot about Villa, and plenty on the Board's culpability in some of the matters I take issue with, I can assure you I have no intention to give them an easy ride.
I do however believe at times that pointing the finger at Big Bad Randy is used as a means of hiding MON's deficiencies by some.
The board have clearly made mistakes. None so outrageous as appointing the useless arse whose football we were subjected to the endurance of last season. But to hold them responsible for all Villa related ills is grossly unfair in my view.
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
Just out of interest, what percentage of Villa did Doug buy for that amount of money? According to Wiki David Dein bought a 16.6% stake in Arsenal for £292,000 back in 1983 which makes me think both clubs were of a similar value back then. It's astonishing to see the progress Arsenal have made since then, as a business.
-
Round and round and round....
NRC 8.5M- Free transfer, probably on 40k a week.
Sidwell 5.5m, traded for a gift voucher at Harrods, 50k a week.
Curtis Davies 10m, 2m to SHA, 30-40K a week.
Heskey.
Shorey. Dreadful panic buy when Bouma got injured. In for 5m and we gave him to WBA for 50k.
Luke Young. In fairness an excellent full back imo. But signed for 5m when he went to Boro for 3m a year earlier.
And the worst of all Habib Beye. I can never to this day understood why he was signed, at 32 given a three year contract on 40k a week as a few weeks later MON just decided he was going to play Cuellar at RB for the whole season. So we had the ridiculous situation of Young and beye both on the bench earning not far off 100k combined.
He might've gotten away with it if we'd made the champions league one year but we didn't and too many of those vastly expensive squad players just didn't contribute.
That's way despite results not being great so far, I am fully behind Lambert's transfer vision. Benteke, Vlaar, Westwood, Lowton. All impressed me this season and all on less wages than the players they can be compared to above, Beneteke's probably on half of what Heskey was on here!
Hopefully it will be one more season of pain and next year we will be back competiting in the top half of the league again.
-
Let's turn this round, VD. Why do you think we should owe MON a favour or be deferential as to what he did here?
I don't actually, I just contrast the enthusiasm for slagging off MON and the cringing reticence to say anything about Lerner.
You obviously haven't spent much time on this board if you believe there's any truth in this.
-
He might've gotten away with it if we'd made the champions league one year but we didn't and too many of those vastly expensive squad players just didn't contribute.
We'd have been knocked of out the qualifiers quicker than you could say "hoof football".
Face it, he got found out and he ran away at the first request of having to do what every other football manager is asked to do.
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
Just out of interest, what percentage of Villa did Doug buy for that amount of money? According to Wiki David Dein bought a 16.6% stake in Arsenal for £292,000 back in 1983 which makes me think both clubs were of a similar value back then. It's astonishing to see the progress Arsenal have made since then, as a business.
Around 35%.
-
There was £10m of annual salaries wasting away not being used. That would make any owner sick.
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
Just out of interest, what percentage of Villa did Doug buy for that amount of money? According to Wiki David Dein bought a 16.6% stake in Arsenal for £292,000 back in 1983 which makes me think both clubs were of a similar value back then. It's astonishing to see the progress Arsenal have made since then, as a business.
Around 35%.
Stand to be corrected but as I understood it, Doug borrowed the £425k to purchase Bendalls shares. He then awarded himself a monthly salary which was roughly equivalent to the loan repayments he had to make. He was one of the first directors to be paid a salary after the Football Association had changed the rules in the early 1980s.
He increased his holding over the years up to 47% by 1996, then sold off a portion making a £4million profit and reducing his holding to 1/3 in line with rules for the stock market flotation which took place in 1997.
-
Doug paid Ron Bendall £425,000 for his shares in 1982. From that day on he invested not one single penny in the club.
Just out of interest, what percentage of Villa did Doug buy for that amount of money? According to Wiki David Dein bought a 16.6% stake in Arsenal for £292,000 back in 1983 which makes me think both clubs were of a similar value back then. It's astonishing to see the progress Arsenal have made since then, as a business.
Around 35%.
Thanks.
-
One of MON's main failings was that he could not sell players, for one reason or another. Whether he did not feel it was his responsibility or whether his ego could not take the hit of selling players he bought in at a significant loss.
To maintain a healthy financial state, clubs must be able to turnover players. With MON it was a case of just stacking them up on the rubbish pile.
It is the above that made me change my feelings for MON. I suppose I came to realise it at the end of the summer transfer window at the start of his last season here when he failed to sell surplus players having invested heavily in a new defence and, of course, failed to buy a decent striker.
I believe to this day that he struck lucky in his final season with Milner moving to central midfield and having a storming season and this papered over the cracks.
-
Round and round and round....
NRC 8.5M- Free transfer, probably on 40k a week.
Sidwell 5.5m, traded for a gift voucher at Harrods, 50k a week.
Curtis Davies 10m, 2m to SHA, 30-40K a week.
Heskey.
Shorey. Dreadful panic buy when Bouma got injured. In for 5m and we gave him to WBA for 50k.
Luke Young. In fairness an excellent full back imo. But signed for 5m when he went to Boro for 3m a year earlier.
And the worst of all Habib Beye. I can never to this day understood why he was signed, at 32 given a three year contract on 40k a week as a few weeks later MON just decided he was going to play Cuellar at RB for the whole season. So we had the ridiculous situation of Young and beye both on the bench earning not far off 100k combined.
He might've gotten away with it if we'd made the champions league one year but we didn't and too many of those vastly expensive squad players just didn't contribute.
That's way despite results not being great so far, I am fully behind Lambert's transfer vision. Benteke, Vlaar, Westwood, Lowton. All impressed me this season and all on less wages than the players they can be compared to above, Beneteke's probably on half of what Heskey was on here!
Hopefully it will be one more season of pain and next year we will be back competiting in the top half of the league again.
Truly awful.Just no long term plan at all , also with Young according to wiki its even worse Boro paid £2.5mil and we paid up to £6mil.
He brought 99% from the UK market and yet the one player he brought cheaply and from abroad Guzan could turn out to be his best pound for pound signing.
With regard to his famed motivational skills I firmly believe that that was partly achieved by sticking average players on huge salaries.
-
c) I tend to think that telling a manager that he has to make massive cuts but he can't tell the fans, is selfish. Houllier, McLeish were willing to tell that lie to the fans and both paid the price.
Don't get the point you're trying to make here at all.
At no point did the club ever prepare the fans for the extent of the cuts. It started off being all about complying with the FFP rules. It has just been one player at a time until the fans reached their own conclusions, which is now presented as if it was always understood.
The last three managers have all colluded in that dirty little trick. Houllier came under a huge amount of pressure due to the consequences of that plan and so did McLeish.
These guys might be richer as a result but the experience did not exactly enhance their reputations.
I still don't get the point you're making.
It seems clear - with hindsight - that in 2010 RL had started to question the acquisition by his manager of several overpaid / underplayed players. And the tipping point came with Milner's sale to MCFC (instigated - if some are to be believed - by MON). After the purchase-price + wages aggregation had been made, it's not that surprising that RL decided to close the wallet.
I'm not aware that Lerner has ever particualrly shared hiis game-plan with the fans (other than through the 'unofficial' auspices of the erstwhile General), so to say that the Chairman should have prepared the fans for cuts seems like a non sequitur to me. And anyway, PF has signalled a change in investment policy several times since his appointment.
"dirty little trick" is your phrase: I don't recognise it in the context of RL, GHou or TSM.
I think, VD, that you need to immerse yourself in another Bourne movie or some other conspiracy plot 'cos you ain't enlightened me one jot tonight.
-
it's hard to suggest that Houllier colluded in the cuts, when a few months into his reign, we were spending £24m on a single player.
I don't need any persuading to believe that there has been an ongoing sequence of financial belt tightening. I'm not that happy about it myself. I'm suspicious of the fact that buying in lots of young lower league players and hoping it works marries quite nicely with reducing the wage bill significantly.
What I don't buy is the suggestion that MON left because he was presented with the need for enormous cuts. He was asked to do what every single manager in the league (bar maybe Mancini or whoever is Chelsea manager this week) has to do - wheel and deal, work on his squad, move some players on.
He realised that he wasn't going to be able to do that and finish sixth again, and left, at a truly dreadful time to do so. He basically worked out that it was either risk damaging brand O'Neill (by actually managing his squad) or flounce off, and he took the latter option.
Personally, I think Lerner and Faulkner are both woefully out of their depth, and the last year or two have seen a general running down of the club to the point that we now seem to spend a lot of time floating around the arse end of the table.
To suggest, though, that O'Neill left two and a half years ago because he had some apocalyptic vision of horrific cuts is bonkers. He realised he was taking a risk staying and wasn't prepared to do it, and off he went - not giving a flying fuck for those like Villadroid or other posters on here who still defend him today.
-
The Villa had a manager called MON,
Fans hoped a league winner like Ron,
But when it came to the crunch,
He was all out to lunch,
And his legend was just a big con.
-
We believed when our billionaire buyer
said 'Martin is the Messiah'
when he'd spent all the dosh
the Messiah fucked off
with his halo, his wings, and his choir.
-
We believed when our billionaire buyer
said 'Martin is the Messiah'
when he'd spent all the dosh
the Messiah fucked off
with his halo, his wings, and his choir.
... and the winner is ...
Very good.
-
Agreed.
-
He brought 99% from the UK market and yet the one player he brought cheaply and from abroad Guzan could turn out to be his best pound for pound signing.
John Carew?
-
it's hard to suggest that Houllier colluded in the cuts, when a few months into his reign, we were spending £24m on a single player.
I don't need any persuading to believe that there has been an ongoing sequence of financial belt tightening. I'm not that happy about it myself. I'm suspicious of the fact that buying in lots of young lower league players and hoping it works marries quite nicely with reducing the wage bill significantly.
What I don't buy is the suggestion that MON left because he was presented with the need for enormous cuts. He was asked to do what every single manager in the league (bar maybe Mancini or whoever is Chelsea manager this week) has to do - wheel and deal, work on his squad, move some players on.
He realised that he wasn't going to be able to do that and finish sixth again, and left, at a truly dreadful time to do so. He basically worked out that it was either risk damaging brand O'Neill (by actually managing his squad) or flounce off, and he took the latter option.
Personally, I think Lerner and Faulkner are both woefully out of their depth, and the last year or two have seen a general running down of the club to the point that we now seem to spend a lot of time floating around the arse end of the table.
To suggest, though, that O'Neill left two and a half years ago because he had some apocalyptic vision of horrific cuts is bonkers. He realised he was taking a risk staying and wasn't prepared to do it, and off he went - not giving a flying fuck for those like Villadroid or other posters on here who still defend him today.
Hard to disagree with most of that.
Wages is, and has been, our issue for a while now.
I think MON was prepared to sell on a few in summer 2010 (NRC, Davies, Shorey, etc.), but couldn't due to the ridiculous wages he put them on. It was when Randy stood firm on not backing him anyway, despite the expected exits not happening, that the issue started.
And then wages have been the key financial issue ever since.
I imagine the plan when they first bought the club was spend big and create a valuable squad. The natural player movement would then see that money recycled through the club and leave the transfer kitty needing a smaller 'topping up' in later years. Basically, spend £40m a year for the first few years, then £20m thereafter with the anticipation that players from those £40m years move on, be it for a profit or a loss, and that is then added to the £20m, which is squad maintenance, rather than squad building. Chelsea aren't a bad example as after the huge splurges in the early Roman years, then started spending more rationally (until recently, that is!).
Our players weren't moving on as nobody would match their wages, so we haven't been able to re-use their transfer value.
-
I imagine the plan when they first bought the club was spend big and create a valuable squad. The natural player movement would then see that money recycled through the club and leave the transfer kitty needing a smaller 'topping up' in later years. Basically, spend £40m a year for the first few years, then £20m thereafter with the anticipation that players from those £40m years move on, be it for a profit or a loss, and that is then added to the £20m, which is squad maintenance, rather than squad building. Chelsea aren't a bad example as after the huge splurges in the early Roman years, then started spending more rationally (until recently, that is!).
Our players weren't moving on as nobody would match their wages, so we haven't been able to re-use their transfer value.
I think that's absolutely spot on, John. Another good example of that is Tottenham.
Whilst we hid get decent money from Young, Downing and Milner, the really big issue was the problem of players who were never going to have much resale value on big money deals that we then couldn't move on.
Plus the length of the deals given to the likes of Heskey and Beye .... that was absolutely nuts.
It was all a bit like renting an expensive house for a few years and enjoying the luxuries while you had it, rather than buying one, and thinking of the future.
-
I suppose the question remains as to whether the fact that Abramovich has spent £2bn is a measure of how bad his managers have been, or something else.
-
The Young/Milner/Downing money was good, as was what we got for Barry, but couldn't be recycled due to wages still being too high. It also came as we dipped in form, so rather than be a natural recycling of players, it became an exodus as we lost momentum on the pitch, thereby creating a snowball effect.
Things like selling Barry and then getting Delph and Downing are better examples of what I think was the original intention.
-
I suppose the question remains as to whether the fact that Abramovich has spent £2bn is a measure of how bad his managers have been, or something else.
I'd say the thing it reflects most is how much money he's got, and how much he is prepared to put into Chelsea.
-
The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.
Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.
Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.
The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.
Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.
A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.
MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.
It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.
-
I suppose the question remains as to whether the fact that Abramovich has spent £2bn is a measure of how bad his managers have been, or something else.
I'd say the thing it reflects most is how much money he's got, and how much he is prepared to put into Chelsea.
We're not comparing apples with apples though are we.
For Chelsea & Man City owners it's a hobby. For RL it's been a business and unfortunately one that he appears to have less of an interest in than he had at the out set.
-
It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.
Has anybody actually tried to make that case? I've certainly missed it if they have!
I think this thread boils down to two question really:-
1. On reflection, how good a job did he actually do?
2. How much of where we are now is down to him?
-
I suppose the question remains as to whether the fact that Abramovich has spent £2bn is a measure of how bad his managers have been, or something else.
I'd say the thing it reflects most is how much money he's got, and how much he is prepared to put into Chelsea.
We're not comparing apples with apples though are we.
For Chelsea & Man City owners it's a hobby. For RL it's been a business and unfortunately one that he appears to have less of an interest in than he had at the out set.
That's what i was trying to say in answer to VD's question, really, Abrahmovich has much more money and it's a hobby, the only conclusion to be drawn on what his spending reflects is that it's down to how much he has, and how much he wants to invest.
No relevance to Lerner at all.
-
I think it was always intended as a hobby for Randy, albeit one which had to break even eventually. He can't spend as much on his hobby as others can.
-
70 pages on MON, I really am sure DOL, Houiller and McLeish were far worse managers who did far more damage to our great club
-
70 pages on MON, I really am sure DOL, Houiller and McLeish were far worse managers who did far more damage to our great club
The others don't really have any advocates though do they? Among the press or the fans.
-
My main reason for backing O'Neill was that were no better candidates around that were better than him and that we could realistically attract.
-
My main reason for backing O'Neill was that were no better candidates around that were better than him and that we could realistically attract.
My memory is that the sale to Lerner meant we could get someone of the calibre of O'Neill. I don't think many fans weren't very excited about someone with his track record taking us on with the influx of financial clout at the same time.
-
Absolutely. Lerner and O'Neill were a "Dream Team".
-
Let's turn this round, VD. Why do you think we should owe MON a favour or be deferential as to what he did here?
I don't actually, I just contrast the enthusiasm for slagging off MON and the cringing reticence to say anything about Lerner.
You obviously haven't spent much time on this board if you believe there's any truth in this.
Exactly, I'm not sure where Villadroid gets this idea that fans are reluctant to criticise Lerner. He's had his fair share of slaggings on here and elsewhere, but that doesn't mean MON should escape his share.
Lerner had some credit in the bank in that he backed his manager with funds, but was guilty of naivety, and buying into the MON myth a bit too much.
MON was guilty of spending a lot of money on overpaid, underused, journeymen who became largely unsellable. Much as I despise Ellis, his epiphet "an apple well bought is half sold" is something that Lerner and O'Neill might have done better to take heed of - far too many of MON's "apples" were badly bought, and proved very difficult to shift.
-
My main reason for backing O'Neill was that were no better candidates around that were better than him and that we could realistically attract.
Sorry, I meant towards the end of his reign, when there were lots of voices wanting him out.
I think most fans were delighted when he was appointed, and indeed all the way up to the Moscow and Stoke games. But even after that we finished respectably, got to a League Cup Final and FA Cup semi-final. So I'd rather he had stayed, simply because he was better than the alternatives.
My memory is that the sale to Lerner meant we could get someone of the calibre of O'Neill. I don't think many fans weren't very excited about someone with his track record taking us on with the influx of financial clout at the same time.
-
So it should have been Lerner's decision as to whether the players bought were actually worth what we were paying?
At what point in those 4 years should Lerner have said 'no' then? Bear in mind the stick he took when he finally decided enough was enough.
Should he have vetoed the purchase of Heskey? Or Collins,Dunne & Warnock? How about Sidwell or Shorey? How obvious should it have been to him that there was nothing to suggest that Davies was a better player than Cahill?
-
So it should have been Lerner's decision as to whether the players bought were actually worth what we were paying?
At what point in those 4 years should Lerner have said 'no' then? Bear in mind the stick he took when he finally decided enough was enough.
Should he have vetoed the purchase of Heskey? Or Collins,Dunne & Warnock? How about Sidwell or Shorey? How obvious should it have been to him that there was nothing to suggest that Davies was a better player than Cahill?
It's not a case of vetoing purchases, it should have been Lerner setting sensible budgets and goals with his manager, and if those players weren't affordable, then they should not have been bought. I can't imagine that O'Neill had a particularly strong case for wanting to sign Beye, for example.
-
So it should have been Lerner's decision as to whether the players bought were actually worth what we were paying?
At what point in those 4 years should Lerner have said 'no' then? Bear in mind the stick he took when he finally decided enough was enough.
Should he have vetoed the purchase of Heskey? Or Collins,Dunne & Warnock? How about Sidwell or Shorey? How obvious should it have been to him that there was nothing to suggest that Davies was a better player than Cahill?
I think it's more a case of looking at it as an overall piece and seeing the warning sings of the wages/turnover ratio getting out of control before it did. So rather than challenge his judgement on a particular player, challenge him on the overall wagebill he had created and the portion not being utilised.
-
As the main member of the "Cult of MON" is himself, it will be of great comfort to O'Neill to know that his name can still generate such a lengthy and passionate thread, over two years and three-and-a-bit managers later. I believe he's at least half to blame for our decline, but I don't really understand why we can't try and move on a bit now.
-
So it should have been Lerner's decision as to whether the players bought were actually worth what we were paying?
At what point in those 4 years should Lerner have said 'no' then? Bear in mind the stick he took when he finally decided enough was enough.
Should he have vetoed the purchase of Heskey? Or Collins,Dunne & Warnock? How about Sidwell or Shorey? How obvious should it have been to him that there was nothing to suggest that Davies was a better player than Cahill?
It's not a case of vetoing purchases, it should have been Lerner setting sensible budgets and goals with his manager, and if those players weren't affordable, then they should not have been bought. I can't imagine that O'Neill had a particularly strong case for wanting to sign Beye, for example.
Setting 'sensible budgets' and vetoing the purchase of certain players can be pretty much the same thing. Bear in mind the timing of most of those transfers and how long it takes to sign a player - especially with O'Neill, who never seemed to have Lambert's knack of having an alternative up his sleeve if a selling club dug its heels in.
What if the players concerned were actually worth the money we threw at them?
There seems to be a lot of 20-20 hindsight here regarding decisions Lerner should have made.
We have no idea what case O'Neill put forward for any of the players, or how he engineered a green light for the purchases we made. Do you really think he took a back seat and was prepared to shrug his shoulders and say 'c'est la vie' if he didn't get what he wanted?
Who is to say what conditions wer put around said purchases regarding the need to reign back wages, or that they only started to be made in the summer he left?
-
The problem regarding when Lerner should have said no is that he had, at all times, an overview of the financial situation of the club.
He then got to the point where things were so bad, we had to scale back so quickly, we almost got relegated.
It's hard for us to say when he should have put the brakes on, because we didn't see the overview of the financial situation. He did.
What's more, he should ideally have had some sort of plan to grow the club which extended beyond only listening to his manager. It's not hard to conclude that MON was the only person with input to that, because as soon as he fucked off, everything started to go to shit on a number of fronts. Farcical manager searches with even more farcical appointments. That sort of thing.
-
Incidentally, "we could do with a football person on the board" was something which was said on here thousands of times over the last six years.
It's pretty hard to argue that we were incorrect on that front, given the way things panned out.
-
I agree with that assessment, Paulie. There is a kind of rush to blame 'someone', as opposed to the reality which says that it took a few people to feck up a pretty good situation quite as badly as they have.
-
I would also flag up how frequently on the General's thread people asked about or mentioned the financial situation, as it was causing concern, and were told by the General not to worry about it - almost to the point of it being patronising (don't worry your little heads, etc).
I don't want to dwell on the way he said it, I am sure his intent wasn't to patronise, but his message was very clear. That it was something not worth worrying about.
Clearly, it was.
-
The problem regarding when Lerner should have said no is that he had, at all times, an overview of the financial situation of the club.
He then got to the point where things were so bad, we had to scale back so quickly, we almost got relegated.
It's hard for us to say when he should have put the brakes on, because we didn't see the overview of the financial situation. He did.
What's more, he should ideally have had some sort of plan to grow the club which extended beyond only listening to his manager. It's not hard to conclude that MON was the only person with input to that, because as soon as he fucked off, everything started to go to shit on a number of fronts. Farcical manager searches with even more farcical appointments. That sort of thing.
But we don't know what other events there were occurring in the background, over which Lerner did not have control. For example it has been said that the Lerner fortune is, or was, tied heavily to Bank of America stock. This collapsed quite dramatically at round about the time Lerner pulled the reins in.
-
Incidentally, "we could do with a football person on the board" was something which was said on here thousands of times over the last six years.
It's pretty hard to argue that we were incorrect on that front, given the way things panned out.
Can I also point out that some of us were against him having 100% control at the same time as others were falling over themselves to demand he got it?
-
Does anyone else think we need to forget about O'Neill and concentrate on the present manager? O'Neill is dead to me now.
-
The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.
Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.
Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.
The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.
Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.
A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.
MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.
It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.
You could also say its difficult to make a case that things have improved for Martin O'Neill since he left Aston Villa....
That aside, I have to say I think you have summed up the MON years pretty much as I see them.
With HINDSIGHT, there were mistakes made on both sides, some through naivety, some through stubbornness, and I'm sure some were ill- fated yet honest decisions that just seemed right at the time.
There were the outside influences that conspired against us, those late Stoke goals, Redknapps Spurs revival, Randys cashflow problems and worst of all Man City's infinite cash pot.
The way I see it, like a middle distance runner trailing the pack, playing catch up from the start, we only ever had a shit or bust chance of triumph. We gave everything we'd got coming round the final bend into the straight hoping it would be enough. I think we frightened one or two and they fought back and kicked on, till we hit the point where we couldn't sustain the challenge any longer.
I'm sure I'm not the only Villa fan that misses those days, we were relevant again and after so many years of feeling 'distanced' by the hierarchy, it really felt like we'd had OUR club given back to US.
Sometimes though, I think I am alone in passing up the inquest in order to hunt down this big bad wolf that brought the fun to an end, and that's simply because I don't think there ever was one.
-
The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.
Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.
Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.
The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.
Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.
A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.
MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.
It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.
You could also say its difficult to make a case that things have improved for Martin O'Neill since he left Aston Villa....
That aside, I have to say I think you have summed up the MON years pretty much as I see them.
With HINDSIGHT, there were mistakes made on both sides, some through naivety, some through stubbornness, and I'm sure some were ill- fated yet honest decisions that just seemed right at the time.
There were the outside influences that conspired against us, those late Stoke goals, Redknapps Spurs revival, Randys cashflow problems and worst of all Man City's infinite cash pot.
The way I see it, like a middle distance runner trailing the pack, playing catch up from the start, we only ever had a shit or bust chance of triumph. We gave everything we'd got coming round the final bend into the straight hoping it would be enough. I think we frightened one or two and they fought back and kicked on, till we hit the point where we couldn't sustain the challenge any longer.
I'm sure I'm not the only Villa fan that misses those days, we were relevant again and after so many years of feeling 'distanced' by the hierarchy, it really felt like we'd had OUR club given back to US.
Sometimes though, I think I am alone in passing up the inquest in order to hunt down this big bad wolf that brought the fun to an end, and that's simply because I don't think there ever was one.
Nicely put.
-
The legend of MON is based upon his ability to win a cup at Leicester, punch above their weight in the league, and even get 11 games and 5 goals out of Collymore, when Villa had written him off.
Reversing the dominance of Rangers in the Old Firm contest added further to his reputation.
Villa fans knew what they were getting and welcomed him with open arms because they had good reason to believe that he could bridge the huge financial gap between Villa and the big boys with some investment from the ambitious new owner.
The idea being to build a team good enough to qualify for the Champions League and then once plugged into the European cash-cow build Villa's turnover and their glamour, as they signed better players and took themselves to the next level.
Sadly, three sixth-place finishes weren't enough and by the time Villa notched up their first away win at Old Trafford for an age and were having a measure of success in reaching a cup final and a semi-final in the same season, things had already turned sour between O'Neill and Lerner and the gig was up.
A significant fall in the owner's wealth, due to the banking crisis; divorce and family troubles, all became distractions for the owner and a restructuring of the club's management took place, as Paul Faulkner was appointed Chief Executive in 2010.
MON decided he didn't like the changes to the conditions of his employment and decided to leave. Whether it was precipitated by the sale of James Milner or the changes to management, or something else entirely, no one but the parties involved are in a position to know.
It is difficult to make the case that things have improved for Aston Villa since O'Neill left.
You could also say its difficult to make a case that things have improved for Martin O'Neill since he left Aston Villa....
That aside, I have to say I think you have summed up the MON years pretty much as I see them.
With HINDSIGHT, there were mistakes made on both sides, some through naivety, some through stubbornness, and I'm sure some were ill- fated yet honest decisions that just seemed right at the time.
There were the outside influences that conspired against us, those late Stoke goals, Redknapps Spurs revival, Randys cashflow problems and worst of all Man City's infinite cash pot.
The way I see it, like a middle distance runner trailing the pack, playing catch up from the start, we only ever had a shit or bust chance of triumph. We gave everything we'd got coming round the final bend into the straight hoping it would be enough. I think we frightened one or two and they fought back and kicked on, till we hit the point where we couldn't sustain the challenge any longer.
I'm sure I'm not the only Villa fan that misses those days, we were relevant again and after so many years of feeling 'distanced' by the hierarchy, it really felt like we'd had OUR club given back to US.
Sometimes though, I think I am alone in passing up the inquest in order to hunt down this big bad wolf that brought the fun to an end, and that's simply because I don't think there ever was one.
Nicely put.
If MON had left in May at the end of the season I don't think he would have been remembered half as badly.
If MON had left in May at the end of the season minus the dross and the dross on high wages and long contracts he would have been remembered fondly.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
-
Paulie...
I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.
I cannot speak for what the General said, or how he put it. The one reply that would have surprised me would have been 'fuck me, you are right. We're in the shit'. A the time, had the players actually have been worth the money we paid we probably would have made champions league revenues our own.
Were the means by which Lerner identified his managerial appointments really so farcical? All I remember was that three times in a row there was much gnashing of keyboards that it was taking too long. One decision was a bad one.
I have no doubt that Lerner was well aware of the club's longer term financial commitment. In a business that gives you two opportunities a year to address liabilities and take on further risk in pursuit of success, decision making is anything but straightforward. Especially when events outside the game can change things very quickly and as it happened, very radically.
Do you really mean to imply that if O'Neill had stayed he would have saved us from all this? My own feelings at the time was that his 'success' was built on feet of clay and that his exit - however damagingly timed - was the first step (of many) towards getting a team worth following.
I am not saying Lerner is either blameless or has had everything under control at all times.
This is not a comment directed at you, but it would appear to me that he is getting a lot of stick - and personal abuse - for doing the very things that Doug was criticised for not doing a decade ago.
It all seems a bit two legs good four legs bad to me. There is still for me one main culprit for what has been three and most likely a few more years of grevious matchday angst.
-
I would also flag up how frequently on the General's thread people asked about or mentioned the financial situation, as it was causing concern, and were told by the General not to worry about it - almost to the point of it being patronising (don't worry your little heads, etc).
I don't want to dwell on the way he said it, I am sure his intent wasn't to patronise, but his message was very clear. That it was something not worth worrying about.
Clearly, it was.
I remember the first time we made a big loss, the General was on here and VT saying not to worry as it was fully expected. It appeared to be less 'expected' when it happened for the second, third and fourth years running though. What Robin Russell was doing during that time lord only knows.
-
But surely it only became clear after he blew the money? Therefore hindsight is relevant?
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Not to me it wasn't. We were competing with the top four and often giving them a bloody nose. I enjoyed winning more often than not and clubs seeing us as a threat.
It all ended sadly but we had a good team with some top quality players and many memorable games. We were very close to making the breakthrough.
-
I would also flag up how frequently on the General's thread people asked about or mentioned the financial situation, as it was causing concern, and were told by the General not to worry about it - almost to the point of it being patronising (don't worry your little heads, etc).
I don't want to dwell on the way he said it, I am sure his intent wasn't to patronise, but his message was very clear. That it was something not worth worrying about.
Clearly, it was.
That is exactly how I remember it.
I can only paraphrase him but he said something like, don't worry we were expecting to make a loss and everything is going to plan.
-
Paulie...
I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.
By 'football man' forget the idea of a DoF and think more about someone who knows football and, more importantly, football people. Much as you can criticise Doug, there wasn't anyone in the game who wouldn't answer his calls. We did, of course, have the best in the business until we thought we could do without him.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Not to me it wasn't. We were competing with the top four and often giving them a bloody nose. I enjoyed winning more often than not and clubs seeing us as a threat.
It all ended sadly but we had a good team with some top quality players and many memorable games. We were very close to making the breakthrough.
I half agree. I really enjoyed O'Neill's tenure. We had a fine team with some fantastic players and played some fantastic memorable games. Just why oh why did he waste so much money on the Harewoods and Heskeys though? The amount of money he wasted on utter dross is mind boggling, and it's clear we're still in the shit because of it.
Still, those 3 or 4 fine seasons are a million miles from the shit we find ourselves in at the moment though.
-
Incidentally, "we could do with a football person on the board" was something which was said on here thousands of times over the last six years.
It's pretty hard to argue that we were incorrect on that front, given the way things panned out.
Can I also point out that some of us were against him having 100% control at the same time as others were falling over themselves to demand he got it?
I remember. You and the much missed Mr. Page. I disagreed.
-
Paulie...
I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.
By 'football man' forget the idea of a DoF and think more about someone who knows football and, more importantly, football people. Much as you can criticise Doug, there wasn't anyone in the game who wouldn't answer his calls. We did, of course, have the best in the business until we thought we could do without him.
I don't think it would have made any difference what job title or capacity a 'football man' would have made. I seems to me - and seemed - that O'Neill considered 'football' as his fiefdom and would have been off.
I'd agree that the club lost a lot when Steve Stride left. A bigger loss than any player we sold.
-
Paulie...
I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.
By 'football man' forget the idea of a DoF and think more about someone who knows football and, more importantly, football people. Much as you can criticise Doug, there wasn't anyone in the game who wouldn't answer his calls. We did, of course, have the best in the business until we thought we could do without him.
I don't think it would have made any difference what job title or capacity a 'football man' would have made. I seems to me - and seemed - that O'Neill considered 'football' as his fiefdom and would have been off.
I'd agree that the club lost a lot when Steve Stride left. A bigger loss than any player we sold.
Agreed. Given that he managed to get rid of two CEOS and two media directors, I can't see that O'Neill would have stood for anyone interfering in his business. I remember saying at the time that he had more power than any other Premier League manager.
-
I enjoyed his tenure too, but I can't think of too many fantastic memorable home games in the last two seasons.
-
I've heard contrasting stories on Stride. One school of thought is that he was happy to retire with a big payout having served Villa admirably for years. The other is that he'd have liked to stay but Lerner wanted a clean sweep and to bring his own men in. Even if he had stayed, I don't think it would have worked for long, it rarely does in cases like that.
-
Paulie...
I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.
By 'football man' forget the idea of a DoF and think more about someone who knows football and, more importantly, football people. Much as you can criticise Doug, there wasn't anyone in the game who wouldn't answer his calls. We did, of course, have the best in the business until we thought we could do without him.
I don't think it would have made any difference what job title or capacity a 'football man' would have made. I seems to me - and seemed - that O'Neill considered 'football' as his fiefdom and would have been off.
I'd agree that the club lost a lot when Steve Stride left. A bigger loss than any player we sold.
Agreed. Given that he managed to get rid of two CEOS and two media directors, I can't see that O'Neill would have stood for anyone interfering in his business. I remember saying at the time that he had more power than any other Premier League manager.
I think that's as a result of him being appointed just as Lerner was taking over. Lerner was obviously new to the business and didn't really know how things worked. If O'Neill had been appointed a year or two after Lerner had taken over, maybe things would have been different, although seeing what's happening at Sunderland at the moment, probably not.
-
Paulie...
I would suspect that putting a football man on the board would have seen O'Neill disappear off out of the door a lot sooner than he did. It probably would have been a good thing for the club for the wrong reasons. It would also have flown in the face of what has and hasn't worked elsewhere in English football.
By 'football man' forget the idea of a DoF and think more about someone who knows football and, more importantly, football people. Much as you can criticise Doug, there wasn't anyone in the game who wouldn't answer his calls. We did, of course, have the best in the business until we thought we could do without him.
I don't think it would have made any difference what job title or capacity a 'football man' would have made. I seems to me - and seemed - that O'Neill considered 'football' as his fiefdom and would have been off.
I'd agree that the club lost a lot when Steve Stride left. A bigger loss than any player we sold.
Agreed. Given that he managed to get rid of two CEOS and two media directors, I can't see that O'Neill would have stood for anyone interfering in his business. I remember saying at the time that he had more power than any other Premier League manager.
Do you think Faulkner tried to clip mons wings or interfere on the football side dave? Just wondering whether he was a reason for mons departure ?
-
I don't know, apart from the fairly obvious reason that the unlimited money wasn't there anymore.
-
I don't know, apart from the fairly obvious reason that the unlimited money wasn't there anymore.
Mon doesn't strike me as a man who would be comfortable if he had to keep Faulkner in the loop - he seems very much a man who likes to run things his way .
-
I don't know, apart from the fairly obvious reason that the unlimited money wasn't there anymore.
Mon doesn't strike me as a man who would be comfortable if he had to keep Faulkner in the loop - he seems very much a man who likes to run things his way .
i.e. on his own, on a whim.
-
I've heard contrasting stories on Stride. One school of thought is that he was happy to retire with a big payout having served Villa admirably for years. The other is that he'd have liked to stay but Lerner wanted a clean sweep and to bring his own men in. Even if he had stayed, I don't think it would have worked for long, it rarely does in cases like that.
The former is correct.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Well said. There was no need for hindsight to see that signings like Harewood, Heskey, Reo-Coker, Knight and a few others were not what we'd been led to expect and were not going to transform us into CL standard performers. Or that MON's transfer policy was incredibly blinkered, and his playing style dreadful to watch with no plan B. All of which was stated by many at the time.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Well said. There was no need for hindsight to see that signings like Harewood, Heskey, Reo-Coker, Knight and a few others were not what we'd been led to expect and were not going to transform us into CL standard performers. Or that MON's transfer policy was incredibly blinkered, and his playing style dreadful to watch with no plan B. All of which was stated by many at the time.
I'll never forgive him for Heskey. Absurd signing.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Well said. There was no need for hindsight to see that signings like Harewood, Heskey, Reo-Coker, Knight and a few others were not what we'd been led to expect and were not going to transform us into CL standard performers. Or that MON's transfer policy was incredibly blinkered, and his playing style dreadful to watch with no plan B. All of which was stated by many at the time.
I'll never forgive him for Heskey. Absurd signing.
You know you was buzzing when he scored on his debut ;D
-
Before the end of his final season I was calling for O'Neill's head. Put to one side the money side of the story for one second, the issue was his managerial ability. The players that he had at his disposal warranted better than another tired limping home in 6th place. For 3 seasons running were collapsed around March onwards. That suggests something was wrong either coaching wise or concerning hisownmanagerial ability.
Anyway,the way he left loses any credits that he had.
-
Before the end of his final season I was calling for O'Neill's head. Put to one side the money side of the story for one second, the issue was his managerial ability. The players that he had at his disposal warranted better than another tired limping home in 6th place. For 3 seasons running were collapsed around March onwards. That suggests something was wrong either coaching wise or concerning hisownmanagerial ability.
Anyway,the way he left loses any credits that he had.
Do you think his squad was too big?
-
Before the end of his final season I was calling for O'Neill's head. Put to one side the money side of the story for one second, the issue was his managerial ability. The players that he had at his disposal warranted better than another tired limping home in 6th place. For 3 seasons running were collapsed around March onwards. That suggests something was wrong either coaching wise or concerning hisownmanagerial ability.
Anyway,the way he left loses any credits that he had.
Do you think his squad was too big?
His fucking head was!
-
But what would we give for a sixth place finish now, MON had come to the end of his time with us, much bigger reputation than he ever deserved, the way he left was awful and no never forgive him for that, but above him in the club people were responsible for allowing him movement he should never have had, people like the General who were put forward as the clubs representative to us , the cap doffing supporters and now when the first rose buds die , have fucked off to be some smiley face for some yank uni, Pube head got it wrong but what worries me is the people who should have been pulling his strings, but obviously did not are still in total control of our club, but what we can do about it now, is hope when he gets fed up, he sells and fucks off , because the longer it goes on the more convinced I am that Randy is the problem,
-
Harewood signing should and did have severe warnings written all over it. I seem to remember when the rumours started it seemed so ridiculous that it was laughed off as the journos making it up. An owner more experienced in the ways of the premiership would have pulled him up very quickly and saved us all the grief, but hey ho Martin is doing the exact same thing at Sunderland buying overpriced British players on huge wages, they are my favourite for relegation and although i have nothing against Sunderland Supporters i would love it.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Well said. There was no need for hindsight to see that signings like Harewood, Heskey, Reo-Coker, Knight and a few others were not what we'd been led to expect and were not going to transform us into CL standard performers. Or that MON's transfer policy was incredibly blinkered, and his playing style dreadful to watch with no plan B. All of which was stated by many at the time.
I'll never forgive him for Heskey. Absurd signing.
A lot of people have cited the Stoke or Moscow games as the beginning of the end, for me it was the Heskey signing.
We were crying out for a goalscorer and the Bicycle faced bastard signed him on a mega waged contract.
-
Harewood signing should and did have severe warnings written all over it. I seem to remember when the rumours started it seemed so ridiculous that it was laughed off as the journos making it up.
And how the Harewood dissenters on here got a bit of a cyber kicking.
This after everybody was talking the piss when it was rumoured that The Blues were in for him.
-
Harewood signing should and did have severe warnings written all over it. I seem to remember when the rumours started it seemed so ridiculous that it was laughed off as the journos making it up.
And how the Harewood dissenters on here got a bit of a cyber kicking.
This after everybody was talking the piss when it was rumoured that The Blues were in for him.
Harewood was a classic example of how MON thought about the squad. Once he had his eleven, he almost never bought players to upgrade the team, let alone anything as nuanced as to challenge for a spot and see who was in the best form or, heaven forbid, to provide a variety of tactical options. No, he bought back-ups - players who would only play through injuries and suspensions, or come off the bench for ten minutes every now and again. All a bit 1970s really.
-
Not letting Lerner off the hook, but such is O'Neill's arrogance, I can imagine that he'd be speechless with anger by the suggestion that he should rein in the spending.
Remember he was schooled by Clough whose belief was that all club owners are know nothing, ungrateful, schmoozing bastards.
-
But what would we give for a sixth place finish now, MON had come to the end of his time with us, much bigger reputation than he ever deserved, the way he left was awful and no never forgive him for that, but above him in the club people were responsible for allowing him movement he should never have had, people like the General who were put forward as the clubs representative to us , the cap doffing supporters and now when the first rose buds die , have fucked off to be some smiley face for some yank uni, Pube head got it wrong but what worries me is the people who should have been pulling his strings, but obviously did not are still in total control of our club, but what we can do about it now, is hope when he gets fed up, he sells and fucks off , because the longer it goes on the more convinced I am that Randy is the problem,
When I read one of your posts I subconsciously translate your name into pbavfcfuckwit. Sorry about that.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Well said. There was no need for hindsight to see that signings like Harewood, Heskey, Reo-Coker, Knight and a few others were not what we'd been led to expect and were not going to transform us into CL standard performers. Or that MON's transfer policy was incredibly blinkered, and his playing style dreadful to watch with no plan B. All of which was stated by many at the time.
I'll never forgive him for Heskey. Absurd signing.
A lot of people have cited the Stoke or Moscow games as the beginning of the end, for me it was the Heskey signing.
We were crying out for a goalscorer and the Bicycle faced bastard signed him on a mega waged contract.
Around that time Bent was missing open goals that Sandra Redknapp would've scored. I wonder if had we'd bid for Bent in that transfer window if Spurs would've accepted given they signed Defoe and Keane again around that time.
Certainly him on board at that time and I believe we would've finished 4th that season and certainly the season after that if we'd just signed him in the summer when he went to Sunderland.
-
After watching him play for Reading against us last week, I was trying to remember how much we paid for Nicky Shorey. Looked up his Wiki profile and came across, "Shorey was at fault in Villa's back four against Middlesbrough in November, making an error that helped hand Boro a 2–1 victory at Villa Park. He was dropped for a good part of the season, with Luke Young switching to left-back; Carlos Cuéllar, Craig Gardner, Nigel Reo-Coker and James Milner all operated as right-backs to cater for Young's switch to the left". Ah yes, the old central midfielder at right back tactic he still seems to employ.
-
Fucking hell, are we still on about these cyber-kickings all these years later? People make less fuss about getting an actual kicking.
-
Harewood signing should and did have severe warnings written all over it.
Yep, remember it well, and I recall thinking at the time (after it had become reality, not some sick joke): "he must be a make-weight for the NRC signing. We cannot possibly be buying him on his own (limited) merits."
Which maybe showed not only what I thought of Harewood but also the expectations for our Nige.
From day one, he was referred to as Marlene Deadwood; and rightly so.
-
I believe Dave Cooper got brickbats for (correctly) referring to him as Marlon Fucking Harewood.
-
But what would we give for a sixth place finish now, MON had come to the end of his time with us, much bigger reputation than he ever deserved, the way he left was awful and no never forgive him for that, but above him in the club people were responsible for allowing him movement he should never have had, people like the General who were put forward as the clubs representative to us , the cap doffing supporters and now when the first rose buds die , have fucked off to be some smiley face for some yank uni, Pube head got it wrong but what worries me is the people who should have been pulling his strings, but obviously did not are still in total control of our club, but what we can do about it now, is hope when he gets fed up, he sells and fucks off , because the longer it goes on the more convinced I am that Randy is the problem,
When I read one of your posts I subconsciously translate your name into pbavfcfuckwit. Sorry about that.
I always see it that way too.
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
-
What's all this "hindsight" rubbish. It was clear to see at the time he was a very limited manager blowing the once in a generation war chest on mostly dross.
Well said. There was no need for hindsight to see that signings like Harewood, Heskey, Reo-Coker, Knight and a few others were not what we'd been led to expect and were not going to transform us into CL standard performers. Or that MON's transfer policy was incredibly blinkered, and his playing style dreadful to watch with no plan B. All of which was stated by many at the time.
Well, overall I was still happy with the way MON was running things. I guess the year on year improvement in the points tally and the year on year improvement in the cup competitions was blinding me.
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
Seems a reasonable enough case to me
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
I thought it was Houlier who insisted that Villa players should live within 30 miles of Bodymore Heath? Under O'Neill many players were commuting to Villa from the glamour of the North West?
-
There are some very nice Warwickshire piles within thirty miles of Bodymoor Heath.
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Possibly, but that still doesn't excuse the likes of Habib Beye and Marlon Fucking Harewood does it?
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Possibly, but that still doesn't excuse the likes of Habib Beye and Marlon Fucking Harewood does it?
I have no fucking idea. if these two ****** were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Seeing as we were viewed as a club on the up, with a popular (as was) manager, a billionaire owner (when such things were less in vogue) then no, I don't.
-
It's never going to stop is it
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Seeing as we were viewed as a club on the up, with a popular (as was) manager, a billionaire owner (when such things were less in vogue) then no, I don't.
But surely you can't change the perception of a brand overnight and in a sellers market things tend to cost more.
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Seeing as we were viewed as a club on the up, with a popular (as was) manager, a billionaire owner (when such things were less in vogue) then no, I don't.
But surely you can't change the perception of a brand overnight and in a sellers market things tend to cost more.
What a load of old cock.MON had no need to overpay but did.
-
I looked at all of O'Neill's player purchases once, and in something like 40 acquistions while at Celtic and Villa, he bought roughly three players from outside of the English or Scottish leagues, and even those his influence was questionable, eg Carew.
-
It's never going to stop is it
Doesn't look like it. :(
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
-
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
So it was Lerner's fault that he trusted O'Neill with his money then?
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
Geddis proved himself in the run-up to the Championship by scoring some vital goals when needed.
And Harewood?
-
To me it's all about the relative value of signings.
you have to look at each signing and the 'upgrade' they provided in to the team/squad. MoN's problem was his early signings had a lot of upgrade value, petrov, carew, young, milner all made a big difference to the ability in the squad and pushed us on to the first 6th place finish (some other signings in the first full summer had an effect as well, but nothing like as big as the 4 named). After that the relative improvement of the squad levelled out. Too often we bought players who simply weren't going to get a game or were only a marginal improvement, but came with a big fee and big wages.
for Villadroid - I've only just caught up on the pages and pages that have been mentioned before but I have a hypothetical question for you.
When we got heskey do you think MoN will have sold him to the board as the player who could take us to the top 4?
If so how do you think things would've panned out if they'd refused to sign him?
How about Collins? Dunne? Warnock?
It's very easy to be critical of the board but as far as I'm concerned the thing they're most guilty of is trusting MoN to spend the money well. If we'd made the champions league in one of his last 2 seasons all the wage worries, etc would've disappeared so they gambled on him having the ability to get there and let him pay the wages and fees accordingly.
MoN then didn't deliver on his side so they called enough and asked him to clear out the non playing high earners before he could go again. I'm convinced he left because he was still arguing that he was 1-2 players away from making it but the board just didn't trust him in that last summer.
That the whole thing was built on pillars of sand and on the verge of collapse (leading to 2+ years of papering cracks and eventually rebuilding) mainly means most villa fans now delight in seeing him struggle rather than thinking of him as nearly taking us to the top.
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
So you admit with these comparisons that O'Neill was using methods from the 1980s?
-
Checkmate.
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
Seeing as we were viewed as a club on the up, with a popular (as was) manager, a billionaire owner (when such things were less in vogue) then no, I don't.
But surely you can't change the perception of a brand overnight and in a sellers market things tend to cost more.
By 2007 Magic Martin had been in the job 12 months, and the world and his wife knew we had cash on the hip.
Outside of the very elite clubs, we were probably one of if not the biggest draws in the country at that stage, and could have reasonably expected to attract a better calibre of player than Zat Knight, Marlon F Harewood and NRC.
If we could attract the likes of Laursen, Baros and Bouma pre MON, why could we only attract (or be expected to put up with) worse after his arrival? Does not compute.
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
The week after we bought Harewood Mark Hughes convinced Roque Santa Cruz to move from Bayern Munich to glamorous Blackburn Rovers, for less than we paid for Harewood.
He went on to score 23 goals for them that season.
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
So you admit with these comparisons that O'Neill was using methods from the 1980s?
The fans were not deceived by MON they knew exactly what they were getting, which was not only explicitly demonstrated at ever club he managed but was pointed out by the sceptics from the beginning.
Claiming that his way of playing was a surprise is disingenuous.
No MON side could ever be described as subtle.
-
I don't think it was unreasonable to hope that with a bigger budget, which should have resulted in better quality players, that MON might have been able to play a less rustic style of football than he had at Leicester. It soon became obvious that he was limited by coaching ability rather than resources.
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
The week after we bought Harewood Mark Hughes convinced Roque Santa Cruz to move from Bayern Munich to glamorous Blackburn Rovers, for less than we paid for Harewood.
He went on to score 23 goals for them that season.
Buying players is a gamble, sometimes managers get it right and sometimes they get it wrong (no manager excepted).
Santa Cruz scored only three goals for man United.
-
Santa Cruz scored only three goals for man United.
A brilliant record - 3 goals in zero games for Man United
-
Fans seem to base their case against MON on the fact that he paid too dear for some very ordinary players.
So does anyone think that Villa's unfashionable status and the fact that for Villa players the height of glamour on offer is a house on the Four Oaks estate, distorts the market.
The week after we bought Harewood Mark Hughes convinced Roque Santa Cruz to move from Bayern Munich to glamorous Blackburn Rovers, for less than we paid for Harewood.
He went on to score 23 goals for them that season.
Buying players is a gamble, sometimes managers get it right and sometimes they get it wrong (no manager excepted).
Santa Cruz scored only three goals for man United.
Give it up its getting very boring.
-
Santa Cruz scored only three goals for man United.
A brilliant record - 3 goals in zero games for Man United
Whoops.
I meant City, obviously.
-
This thread's gone on for so long that one day we'll have a 'The legend of the legend of MON thread' thread!
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
So you admit with these comparisons that O'Neill was using methods from the 1980s?
The fans were not deceived by MON they knew exactly what they were getting, which was not only explicitly demonstrated at ever club he managed but was pointed out by the sceptics from the beginning.
Claiming that his way of playing was a surprise is disingenuous.
No MON side could ever be described as subtle.
So now it's the fault of the club for not knowing what they were taking on in Martin O'Neill. Marvellous stuff.
-
This thread's gone on for so long that one day we'll have a 'The legend of the legend of MON thread' thread!
We've just learnt off MoN - rememeber when he was at Leicester and kept all the letters from dissenters then wrote to them saying "I told you so"? Chickens roosting. It's cold as well and little vitriol always helps...
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
So you admit with these comparisons that O'Neill was using methods from the 1980s?
The fans were not deceived by MON they knew exactly what they were getting, which was not only explicitly demonstrated at ever club he managed but was pointed out by the sceptics from the beginning.
Claiming that his way of playing was a surprise is disingenuous.
No MON side could ever be described as subtle.
So now it's the fault of the club for not knowing what they were taking on in Martin O'Neill. Marvellous stuff.
Someone told me that people were breaking legs jumping off the MON bandwagon over at H&V. I am sorry I doubted them.
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
So you admit with these comparisons that O'Neill was using methods from the 1980s?
The fans were not deceived by MON they knew exactly what they were getting, which was not only explicitly demonstrated at ever club he managed but was pointed out by the sceptics from the beginning.
Claiming that his way of playing was a surprise is disingenuous.
No MON side could ever be described as subtle.
So now it's the fault of the club for not knowing what they were taking on in Martin O'Neill. Marvellous stuff.
Someone told me that people were breaking legs jumping off the MON bandwagon over at H&V. I am sorry I doubted them.
Have you seen the press lately? They are jumping off the MON bandwagon as well. If I was you I'd take a trip round Vital Villa, Villa Talk and any Aston Villa supporters group and ask how many are still "on the MON bandwagon". H & V is not exceptional in this regard.
-
Santa Cruz scored only three goals for man United.
A brilliant record - 3 goals in zero games for Man United
Whoops.
I meant City, obviously.
Any how many did he bag for Blackburn when we opted for Marlon instead, and how many did he bag for us?
-
I have no fucking idea. if these two c***s were the only reason for the difference between Villa's 6th fucking place finishes and a top fucking four finish, I suppose it would be totally unfuckingforgivable.
But it is difficult to think of a pair of other fuckers who were fucking capable of reducing the ten point fucking gap which was the fucking difference.
I certainly can't think of any fuckers, can you?
That wasn't the point.
The point was that even if we couldn't attract the top calibre of players there was still absolutely no excuse for blowing whole chunks of transfer and wage budget on the likes of the above mentioned, one of which never played and the other should never have been anywhere near a Premiership squad.
I may not be able to think of two players who could have bridged the gap between sixth and fourth but I can think of a hell of a lot that were better than Habib beye and Marlon 'Fucking' Harewood!
Mr Lerner should have taken the trouble to look at the archives and have taken note that if Ron Saunders only needed 14 players to win the league, then MON might do better with a smaller squad.
Implementing a two tier pay structure where the top earners could only number 14 or 15, backed up by a second tier on a much lower rate, might have been a good idea. But obviously there is no guarantee that Harewood would not have been in that 15.
After all Saunders had David Fucking Geddis, who was not exactly loved by the fans, I seem to recall.
So you admit with these comparisons that O'Neill was using methods from the 1980s?
The fans were not deceived by MON they knew exactly what they were getting, which was not only explicitly demonstrated at ever club he managed but was pointed out by the sceptics from the beginning.
Claiming that his way of playing was a surprise is disingenuous.
No MON side could ever be described as subtle.
So now it's the fault of the club for not knowing what they were taking on in Martin O'Neill. Marvellous stuff.
Someone told me that people were breaking legs jumping off the MON bandwagon over at H&V. I am sorry I doubted them.
Have you seen the press lately? They are jumping off the MON bandwagon as well. If I was you I'd take a trip round Vital Villa, Villa Talk and any Aston Villa supporters group and ask how many are still "on the MON bandwagon". H & V is not exceptional in this regard.
You are correct, the narrative of the Villa fans is remarkably consistent and to a frightening extent. The same phrases keep coming up, like they have been copying each other's homework, or they had rehearsed the same alibi.
This is always suspicious and reveals something very interesting.
That perhaps a collective such as football fans establish their own shibboleths and decide upon a shared narrative of their history which is the most comforting.
The only way to find out how rigidly held the preferred narrative is, is to disagree.
So all good stuff as far as I am concerned.
-
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1433551-more-to-martin-oneills-record-than-meets-the-eye
Has somebody from here written the above article?
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
-
The only way to find out how rigidly held the preferred narrative is, is to disagree.
The theory of gravity is a rigidly held narrative. You could have a splendid argument about that with lots of references to Newton.
-
- "Things fall on the ground because of gravity."
-- "Indubitably? I was informed that people here thought so. But what about the Audi alteram partem? Only with me making a fool of myself can the argument really be settled one way or the other. My argument flows from the opinion that things dont fall on the ground because of gravity and if you believe it so it's natural to assume that magic is at play. Faulkner is an evil sorcerer.
But I didn't say that. If you disagree with me it's because you haven't read properly and not because I'm talking gash.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
Not really.
I am of the faith myself but somehow I don't need to parrot the narrative to keep that faith.
I actually think many of the shibboleths are worth challenging.
I actually believed in some of the preferred narratives myself at one time and they persist but some, like the standard Doug Ellis narrative, look less sound as time goes on.
I am probably wrong to expect people to work through their feelings about MON so quickly, because I believe that, like me, the fans are still in mourning over the death of the Lerner dream.
And mourning has to go through a number of stages and even now acceptance is still a long way off.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
Not really.
I am of the faith myself but somehow I don't need to parrot the narrative to keep that faith.
I actually think many of the shibboleths are worth challenging.
I actually believed in some of the preferred narratives myself at one time and they persist but some, like the standard Doug Ellis narrative, look less sound as time goes on.
I am probably wrong to expect people to work through their feelings about MON so quickly, because I believe that, like me, the fans are still in mourning over the death of the Lerner dream.
And mourning has to go through a number of stages and even now acceptance is still a long way off.
Well that showed us you aren't pompous.
-
What "Shibboleths" (http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif) are you referring to?
You're just taking the piss really aren't you?
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
-
What "Shibboleths" (http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif) are you referring to?
You're just taking the piss really aren't you?
I certainly am not.
-
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
No it didn't.
MON and the club reached an agreement in the course of the tribunal, there was no finding in anyone's favour.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
A well reasoned argument at last.
I thank you sir!
-
Shouldn't this shit be shifted to Villa memories anyway?
-
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
No it didn't.
MON and the club reached an agreement in the course of the tribunal, there was no finding in anyone's favour.
Fair enough, although the writing was clearly on the wall or why would we have settled?
-
What "Shibboleths" (http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif) are you referring to?
You're just taking the piss really aren't you?
I certainly am not.
There was a poll recently in which people were asked which Villa manager in recent history pissed them off the most. The winner was David O'Leary, who beat MON by a number of votes.
After you've asked the question "Are you still on the MON bandwagon", to any Villa fan you can find, you could follow up by saying "Is Randy Lerner blameless for Villa's current situation". You seem to reckon people think RL is largely blameless, yes?
-
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
No it didn't.
MON and the club reached an agreement in the course of the tribunal, there was no finding in anyone's favour.
Fair enough, although the writing was clearly on the wall or why would we have settled?
Who paid who is usually the decider but obviously faces need to be saved.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
Yes he spent the money he was allowed to. Poorly. And we're still feeling the effects. We have the right to discuss it.
You can move on if you want to.
I think we can be forgiven for thinking it would have been more appropriate if his staff stayed a little while to hand over duties to the new regime with a team preparing for a new season just days away. It's what I would call honourable.
Semantics. He took us to a tribunal. It's just another legal action.
An agreement was reached and we'll probably never know the exact details. But he could have just left without fuss. He'd caused enough damage as far as I'm concerned but, stay classy Martin.
I am very much looking forward. I'm actually optimistic for the future. But with respect Chris, on this thread about MON he's going to figure quite heavily, especially when some folks are going out of their way to defend him.
And although I have no respect for him any more, I don't feel any hate towards him. I just wish he'd never have joined us and wasted all our money. I'm also happy that his reputation is being burned through and he's being found out. Maybe it was that gloating that prompted the likes of Villadroid to come out of the woodwork.
*shrugs* It's all gravy.
-
What pseudonym do you post under on Sunderland messageboards, VD?
Your (as always) impassioned defence of the guy is wasted on us, but you might still be able to convert some of their lot.
-
Yes, we should move on but it's a fans right to look at every possible reason why we find ourselves in the predicament we are. Most of the pointers are still looking at MON and his legacy as the main reasons.
MON will become a footnote in our history once the Lambert plan fully kicks in but until then he will be discussed at length over and over again in the same way as what might have been had Phil Dowd sent off Vidic.
-
What "Shibboleths" (http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif) are you referring to?
You're just taking the piss really aren't you?
I certainly am not.
There was a poll recently in which people were asked which Villa manager in recent history pissed them off the most. The winner was David O'Leary, who beat MON by a number of votes.
After you've asked the question "Are you still on the MON bandwagon", to any Villa fan you can find, you could follow up by saying "Is Randy Lerner blameless for Villa's current situation". You seem to reckon people think RL is largely blameless, yes?
The shibboleth which constantly pops up in the Lerner side of the narrative is 'naive', a choice of such a word seems to reveal a desire to ameliorate criticism of RL's failure to implement the right plan.
No manager would be described as naive for buying a bad player because his job entails not being naive.
So why the difference?
-
How is calling Lerner naive a shibboleth? What narrative are you referring to?
"No manager would be described as naive for buying a bad player because his job entails not being naive."
Eh?
-
What "Shibboleths" (http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif) are you referring to?
You're just taking the piss really aren't you?
I certainly am not.
There was a poll recently in which people were asked which Villa manager in recent history pissed them off the most. The winner was David O'Leary, who beat MON by a number of votes.
After you've asked the question "Are you still on the MON bandwagon", to any Villa fan you can find, you could follow up by saying "Is Randy Lerner blameless for Villa's current situation". You seem to reckon people think RL is largely blameless, yes?
The shibboleth which constantly pops up in the Lerner side of the narrative is 'naive', a choice of such a word seems to reveal a desire to ameliorate criticism of RL's failure to implement the right plan.
No manager would be described as naive for buying a bad player because his job entails not being naive.
Firstly, You've dodged the question - do you or do you not assume that Villa fans think Lerner is blameless?
Secondly, you yourself argued that Villa should have "known what they were getting" with Martin O'Neill, implying that his resulting purchases were entirely predictable. So by that logic either O'Neill has been naive for his entire career, or you're just twisting and turning like a worm on a hook to keep the argument going - which is it?
-
He was naive in expecting a manager who has the reputation MON had to be able to spot a decent player and build a squad for the long term benefit of the club. A lot of fans (including myself) were guilty of the same. What actually happened is he built a squad to provide a short term benefit to both the club and more importantly brand MON. The lack of long term benefit is the reason he gets the criticism he does from the fans.
I don't see how anyone can argue that a lot of our problems for 2 and a bit seasons are, at least to a large extent, a direct result of his attempts make a short term push to the champions league, with, I assume, the plan being to re-evaluate once we were there, I doubt he thought much beyond that target though, that certainly doesn't appear to have been the case.
-
What "Shibboleths" (http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif) are you referring to?
You're just taking the piss really aren't you?
I certainly am not.
There was a poll recently in which people were asked which Villa manager in recent history pissed them off the most. The winner was David O'Leary, who beat MON by a number of votes.
After you've asked the question "Are you still on the MON bandwagon", to any Villa fan you can find, you could follow up by saying "Is Randy Lerner blameless for Villa's current situation". You seem to reckon people think RL is largely blameless, yes?
The shibboleth which constantly pops up in the Lerner side of the narrative is 'naive', a choice of such a word seems to reveal a desire to ameliorate criticism of RL's failure to implement the right plan.
No manager would be described as naive for buying a bad player because his job entails not being naive.
Firstly, You've dodged the question - do you or do you not assume that Villa fans think Lerner is blameless?
Secondly, you yourself argued that Villa should have "known what they were getting" with Martin O'Neill, implying that his resulting purchases were entirely predictable. So by that logic either O'Neill has been naive for his entire career, or you're just twisting and turning like a worm on a hook to keep the argument going - which is it?
Do I think many Villa fans think Lerner is blameless?
I suppose I do because the use of the word naive suggests innocence rather than culpability.
I think it was predictable that O'Neill would play a big striker up front and use a counter-attacking style.
As for your assumption about my motives, I don't think your conclusion is logical.
It looks like a thinly disguised ad hominem attack meant to provoke me into some similar response which would allow you to avoid proper argument.
But I could be wrong.
-
Do I think many Villa fans think Lerner is blameless?
I suppose I do
Perhaps then, you could look through this thread alone and find where people have apportioned part of the responsibility to Lerner.
Perhaps you could acknowledge that people have reminded you that the reason MON's part of the blame is concentrated on in this thread, is because this is a thread about MON.
I think you've ignored these points because you simply want to continue the argument for the sake of it.
I expect you'll tell me I'm wrong.
-
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
No it didn't.
MON and the club reached an agreement in the course of the tribunal, there was no finding in anyone's favour.
Fair enough, although the writing was clearly on the wall or why would we have settled?
Lots of reasons, it could have dragged on for longer, it could have been affecting the other workings of the club. It can be cheaper and easier to make the issue go away with a compromise.
We don't know how much he settled for. He might have been after 2m and accepted 100k for all we know. We also don't know what he was claiming. Maybe we were disputing one clause in a batch of several. We just don't know, we can't say anyone won, MON or the club.
Of course, you could probably say that effectively, they both lost. The club because at the time we were heading for stormy waters as we struggled to cope with such a large chunk of the football operations gone, and MON because his career took such a nosedive, he wasn't eyeing the Liverpool job anymore, and winder up at Sunderland, which is an underwhelming next step.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.
It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m. there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.
-
Do I think many Villa fans think Lerner is blameless?
I suppose I do because the use of the word naive suggests innocence rather than culpability.
No it doesn't, it suggests naivety. Which has negative connotations enough already.
Hardly a compliment is it? Especially directed at the chairman of a high profile organisation.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
I can't/won't go into detail but from what I understand there was some sort of technicality or loophole that was exploited.
I am... *ahem* not qualifying this in any way as fact. Not at all. No sir, not me. You don't get me I'm part of the union etc.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.
It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m. there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.
What assumption am I making? He wanted compensation; we didn't think he deserved any. We ended up having to pay him. No assumptions in there at all.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.
It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m. there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.
What assumption am I making? He wanted compensation; we didn't think he deserved any. We ended up having to pay him. No assumptions in there at all.
Perhaps the assumption is that we didn't think he deserved compensation, when in fact we we arguing over the amount as opposed to whether he got anything or not?
That having been said, I do get the feeling that Martin walked out of it happier than we did.
-
Perhaps the assumption is that we didn't think he deserved compensation, when in fact we we arguing over the amount as opposed to whether he got anything or not?
That having been said, I do get the feeling that Martin walked out of it happier than we did.
Well it's possible I suppose but it seems unlikely doesn't it? It's not common practice to pay compensation to staff who walk out. I'm with you, I think the whole thing worked out in his favour, which is basically what Chris's initial comment was.
-
We have every right to discuss what has fucked our club up, and every right to discuss it as often as we want.
I blame MoN and Randy. MoN for spending the money badly and Randy for letting him do it. Also we should have known we were getting too big for our boots when we sent the Ladies 3rd team to play a European game we should have won...
-
Do I think many Villa fans think Lerner is blameless?
I suppose I do
Perhaps then, you could look through this thread alone and find where people have apportioned part of the responsibility to Lerner.
Perhaps you could acknowledge that people have reminded you that the reason MON's part of the blame is concentrated on in this thread, is because this is a thread about MON.
I think you've ignored these points because you simply want to continue the argument for the sake of it.
I expect you'll tell me I'm wrong.
You should have noticed that I deliberately inserted the word "many" in the question, so I could avoid being trapped by some quibble about me stating that all fans think Lerner is blameless.
Unless I am mistaken the thread is entitled The Legend of MON, and I think weighing up all factors which contribute or detract from that legend, including Lerner, is well with in that remit.
Perhaps if the invitation to slag off MON had been more explicit, you could claim that I was off topic, but it's not.
As for arguing for the sake of it, I don't think that stands up because I opened the argument up to discuss the possibility that part of being a fan often requires a shared narrative, and you shut it down and returned to the confines of your preferred narrative.
-
We have every right to discuss what has fucked our club up, and every right to discuss it as often as we want.
I blame MoN and Randy. MoN for spending the money badly and Randy for letting him do it. Also we should have known we were getting too big for our boots when we sent the Ladies 3rd team to play a European game we should have won...
Moscow are a good side and already had a lead from the first leg. Let's not pretend that we were anything other than 2nd favourites to go through no matter what team we sent.
-
We have every right to discuss what has fucked our club up, and every right to discuss it as often as we want.
I blame MoN and Randy. MoN for spending the money badly and Randy for letting him do it. Also we should have known we were getting too big for our boots when we sent the Ladies 3rd team to play a European game we should have won...
Moscow are a good side and already had a lead from the first leg. Let's not pretend that we were anything other than 2nd favourites to go through no matter what team we sent.
Moscow was not the issue! Yes, the selection was crazy, but if MON had picked stronger sides earlier in the tournament we would have avoided playing in Moscow in the depths of their winter altogether.
He showed a naivety in that tournament (which I remarked upon at the time) that belies his self-styled image as a 'senior' manager.
-
As for arguing for the sake of it, I don't think that stands up because I opened the argument up to discuss the possibility that part of being a fan often requires a shared narrative, and you shut it down and returned to the confines of your preferred narrative.
I agree about the shared narrative, but part of being an obsessive (as fans are; particularly those who spend their time on fanzine sites) is to live with one's own narrative and defend it to the hilt.
So don't expect anyone to agree with you, however hard you keep poking the hornet's next.
-
Well yeah, there is a shared narrative. I think we all like it when one particular team wins.
-
As for arguing for the sake of it, I don't think that stands up because I opened the argument up to discuss the possibility that part of being a fan often requires a shared narrative, and you shut it down and returned to the confines of your preferred narrative.
I agree about the shared narrative, but part of being an obsessive (as fans are; particularly those who spend their time on fanzine sites) is to live with one's own narrative and defend it to the hilt.
So don't expect anyone to agree with you, however hard you keep poking the hornet's next.
Nice one.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
A well reasoned argument at last.
I thank you sir!
A well reasoned argument = an opinion that agrees with yours.
I see, so none of the other arguments, no matter how well written, researched and articulated are well reasoned?
At least we know what we're dealing with.
-
I have been trying to think who Villadroid reminds me of. It has just occurred to me - the character played by Bernard Cribbins in the Hotel Inspectors episode of Fawlty Towers.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
A well reasoned argument at last.
I thank you sir!
A well reasoned argument = an opinion that agrees with yours.
I see, so none of the other arguments, no matter how well written, researched and articulated are well reasoned?
At least we know what we're dealing with.
The use of the "we" is very revealing.
-
I have been trying to think who Villadroid reminds me of. It has just occurred to me - the character played by Bernard Cribbins in the Hotel Inspectors episode of Fawlty Towers.
I think I might have that somewhere. I will try and find it out and see how true it might be.
Yep, I found it. A pedant with Northern accent. I think I quite like that.
-
The use of the "we" is very revealing.
What exactly are you trying to imply here?
Don't bother to answer, it was rhetorical, I wondered when the 'H&V clique' bollocks would surface!
By 'we' I mean the people on this thread arguing roughly along the same viewpoint as my own, nothing more, nothing less.
-
Before the end of his final season I was calling for O'Neill's head. Put to one side the money side of the story for one second, the issue was his managerial ability. The players that he had at his disposal warranted better than another tired limping home in 6th place. For 3 seasons running were collapsed around March onwards. That suggests something was wrong either coaching wise or concerning hisownmanagerial ability.
Anyway,the way he left loses any credits that he had.
Do you think his squad was too big?
No. O'Neill had a very good pool of players at his disposal. The fact that they tired for the last 2-3 months of a season and limped home into 6th shows that something was not right off the pitch.
-
The use of the "we" is very revealing.
What exactly are you trying to imply here?
Don't bother to answer, it was rhetorical, I wondered when the 'H&V clique' bollocks would surface!
By 'we' I mean the people on this thread arguing roughly along the same viewpoint as my own, nothing more, nothing less.
Sorry old chap.
I'm just learning the ropes and the one-line put-down seems to be the vogue around here.
So just joining in and all that, don't you know.
-
We have every right to discuss what has fucked our club up, and every right to discuss it as often as we want.
I blame MoN and Randy. MoN for spending the money badly and Randy for letting him do it. Also we should have known we were getting too big for our boots when we sent the Ladies 3rd team to play a European game we should have won...
You can post what you want, as can I, but it's not a discussion, it's the same few people making the same points over and over again. Nobody is going to change their mind or post any fresh insights. In reality it's just a thread for people to let of steam and, as Bren says, it will probably continue until Lambert gets us back to a similar level.
-
We have every right to discuss what has fucked our club up, and every right to discuss it as often as we want.
I blame MoN and Randy. MoN for spending the money badly and Randy for letting him do it. Also we should have known we were getting too big for our boots when we sent the Ladies 3rd team to play a European game we should have won...
You can post what you want, as can I, but it's not a discussion, it's the same few people making the same points over and over again. Nobody is going to change their mind or post any fresh insights. In reality it's just a thread for people to let of steam and, as Bren says, it will probably continue until Lambert gets us back to a similar level.
Whilst true it doesn't stop O'Neill being a c*** for leaving us how he did. We'll forget about him but only when when our own performances make his less worthwhile of comment. A lot like our rivalry with Small Heath.
-
We have every right to discuss what has fucked our club up, and every right to discuss it as often as we want.
I blame MoN and Randy. MoN for spending the money badly and Randy for letting him do it. Also we should have known we were getting too big for our boots when we sent the Ladies 3rd team to play a European game we should have won...
You can post what you want, as can I, but it's not a discussion, it's the same few people making the same points over and over again. Nobody is going to change their mind or post any fresh insights. In reality it's just a thread for people to let of steam and, as Bren says, it will probably continue until Lambert gets us back to a similar level.
Wouldn't that apply to all threads?
-
I have been trying to think who Villadroid reminds me of. It has just occurred to me - the character played by Bernard Cribbins in the Hotel Inspectors episode of Fawlty Towers.
I think I might have that somewhere. I will try and find it out and see how true it might be.
Yep, I found it. A pedant with Northern accent. I think I quite like that.
Most people I know have northern accents, it wouldn't be that.
It was more the shallow verbal diarrhoea. Handy when trying to dress up a bit of trolling but of little use otherwise.
Well done for keeping a copy of a Fawlty Towers episode close at hand.
-
It would be interesting story to talk.
What if MON buy a decent striker instead of Harewood/Heskey and actually qualify for Champions League group stages. Will the like of Milner, Barry and Young be staying at Villa Park.
What if we appoint another man to manage Aston Villa instead of MON. Say Jurgen Klinsmann for example.
-
I have been trying to think who Villadroid reminds me of. It has just occurred to me - the character played by Bernard Cribbins in the Hotel Inspectors episode of Fawlty Towers.
I think I might have that somewhere. I will try and find it out and see how true it might be.
Yep, I found it. A pedant with Northern accent. I think I quite like that.
Most people I know have northern accents, it wouldn't be that.
It was more the shallow verbal diarrhoea. Handy when trying to dress up a bit of trolling but of little use otherwise.
Well done for keeping a copy of a Fawlty Towers episode close at hand.
I get the feeling that you are trying to hurt my feelings but I could be wrong.
As for trolling, Villa is a far too serious topic for that.
So if I am the Hotel Inspector, who do you think is the moose?
-
He wasn't a hotel inspector, he was a spoon salesman. Are you sure you just watched that episode?
The moose was in 'The Germans' BTW.
-
He wasn't a hotel inspector, he was a spoon salesman. Are you sure you just watched that episode?
The moose was in 'The Germans' BTW.
'Sppppooooooons'
'I beg your pardon'
'My Wife tells me you sell spoons, how interesting, how very interesting, must be so much more interesting THAN BEING A HOTEL INSPECTOR!'
-
He wasn't a hotel inspector, he was a spoon salesman. Are you sure you just watched that episode?
The moose was in 'The Germans' BTW.
I only watched the opening scene of the Hotel Inspector and Cribbins is in that opening scene, to check it out.
I was aware that the moose is in The Germans.
Thanks for your concern.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.
It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m. there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.
What assumption am I making? He wanted compensation; we didn't think he deserved any. We ended up having to pay him. No assumptions in there at all.
Apart from the one that we didn't think he deserved any.
We might have disputed the figure rather than the fact he deserved anything.
-
In the sense that O'Neill thought he deserved a payment, we didn't and yet in the end he got one suggests that it went in his favour.
You're falling into the trap of making an assumption there.
It could be he wanted 2 million, we offered 500k and it settled for 1m. there's no winner or loser in that, it's a value both are willing to accept to save the hassle of a 'hearing', it's really not uncommon and is favoured because no one wins.
What assumption am I making? He wanted compensation; we didn't think he deserved any. We ended up having to pay him. No assumptions in there at all.
Apart from the one that we didn't think he deserved any.
We might have disputed the figure rather than the fact he deserved anything.
Exactly, The assumption that he 'won' because we were scared and just paid him off to keep him quiet just doesn't sit right with me. I guess there was some clauses in his contract, 1 of which he activated when he left resulting in him being owed something. We debated that the cost of finding a replacement and a full set of staff at that point in time should be taken into account and after negotiations it was settled.
I have no evidence for that but I suspect it's more realistic than many other ideas.
As for Villadroid, it's getting quite tiring reading the nonsense you post. You're effectively claiming to want to make people think about the other side of things but have been consistent in refusing to do the same yourself, to the point of ignoring most of the arguments put forward.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
Amen.
And I think we've got a lot to look forward to.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
Amen.
And I think we've got a lot to look forward to.
I agree.
I like the manager, I like what he is trying to do, I can see small signs of it working (even the media seem to), and think it will continue to get better. He needs to be backed in the transfer market, though, or he's on to a loser.
With McLeish, I didn't like what he was trying to do, and I don't think his vision of how football should be played (based on what he did with us, and what he'd done before) was ever going to be anything I'd like to watch us play.
Lambert isn't getting the results at the moment, but I at least like what he is trying to do. With McLeish, I couldn't even say that.
-
I naively thought O'Neill wouldn't take a long contract (he was on a 1 year rolling I believe) as he was a principled man , who wouldn't take a big pay off if he failed /got sacked/went to another club/walked out.
Compare that to Sir Graham who wouldn't take Doug's hush money, but would rather give his honest opinion about our club.
-
So you're playing Devil's advocate as some sort of social experiment. How pompous of you.
I think the wheels of the MON bandwagon came off when he spent all our money, petulantly left on the eve of battle taking all his staff and took us to court. That normally does it. Have you been deactivated in the last few years?
He spent the money he was allowed to by the board, like every other manager.
Petulantly left, yes, and that's his legacy but his staff were his mates and walked out with him. It's not as though they were going to be wanted without him.
He didn't take us to court, but a PL tribunal did find in his favour so presumably he was within his rights.
I think a few of you need to move on, at the moment it seems like hell hath no fury like a Villa fan scorned. It's a pity we made a mess of some subsequent appointments but I'd sooner have Lambert as manager than O'Neill, so we got there eventually, and it's perhaps time we started looking forward.
Amen.
And I think we've got a lot to look forward to.
I agree.
I like the manager, I like what he is trying to do, I can see small signs of it working (even the media seem to), and think it will continue to get better. He needs to be backed in the transfer market, though, or he's on to a loser.
With McLeish, I didn't like what he was trying to do, and I don't think his vision of how football should be played (based on what he did with us, and what he'd done before) was ever going to be anything I'd like to watch us play.
Lambert isn't getting the results at the moment, but I at least like what he is trying to do. With McLeish, I couldn't even say that.
He cut right to the heart of what was wrong with us, rooted out anyone who would hold us back, got the message home within less than six months that you have to earn the right to play.
On top of that we're actually beginning to play what resembles modern football, and he's signed some cracking players nobody had heard of for buttons.
People are giving stick over Bent but they can bollocks. This man is no fool, we'll come up roses on whatever happens.
-
From The Guardian:
"Neil Lennon is emerging from the shadows of Martin O'Neill and Gordon Strachan. Celtic's manager paid tribute to two of his predecessors in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday night's win over Spartak Moscow. O'Neill never garnered 10 points from a Champions League group nor led a Celtic team to the last 16, despite the significant resources at his disposal."
I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way. History might not be a kind judge.
-
The club settled the MON case because
a) it didn't want to air dirty linen in public,
b) it's cheaper than losing
c) it's cheaper than winning but fighting the process and paying the legal fees,
d) it didn't have the time or will to tie Lerner, Faulkner and other key personnel into attending the hearing or preparing all the evidence.
Tribunals are messy, believe me as being someone who has been on the end of spurious and false claims.
-
I think we should knock all this on the head now.
-
I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way. History might not be a kind judge.
Agree on both points. His best hope is to hook up with his mate at ITV Sport as he's very close to being fully found out. Maybe TV will help him maintain the myth that surrounds him. It says a lot when loyal Sunderland supporters that have suffered for years are already tired of him.
-
Since the the early 80s evry good Villa spell has been followed by a slump. 81-83 led to relegation. 89-90 led to us nearly going down the following year. BFR and Sir Brian Little led to another slump that Gregory rescued. His time ended up with us nearly going down under the Second Coming. O'Leary finished 6th and then left us (as did Doug0 in all sorts of bother. In rode Randy and MON and we looked again as if we were going places. It didn't happen and again we're left fighting for scraps.
We usually come out of our slump quicker than we have which adds to the current angst. But to try and seel O'Neill and some sort of demi-God for having the most resources given to him than most nmanagers in the game at the same time, and to hold onto his coat tails because of finishing 6th 3 times is frankly under selling ourselves as a club, and buying into the media's representation of us. We have finished 6th or above 11 times since 1980. Winning 5 trophies in that time.
Since football began we have finsihed 6 or above 9 times in 20 seasons. We have finshed 7th - 9th 4 times. We have been in the final of Cup competitions 4 times and semi-finalists 4 times. (None of these figures include Intertoto or the Peace Cup before anyone starts).
Now tell me again Villadroid, exactly what did MON do that was so fantastic? He performed to what is teh Villa average despite having more money and better players than a lot of his predecessors over the last 30 years. The money argument is a non-entity here as that reared its head after his 4 season of not been able to do much better than what most Villa manager's do but with less resources on offer.
Plus, as been said, the way he left us will leave a sour taste in most people's mouths. That, as a fan, should come just about before everything. He cared about the club enough to drop us right in the sh*t when he knew we'd have very little time to do anything about it.
-
I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way. History might not be a kind judge.
Agree on both points. His best hope is to hook up with his mate at ITV Sport as he's very close to being fully found out. Maybe TV will help him maintain the myth that surrounds him. It says a lot when loyal Sunderland supporters that have suffered for years are already tired of him.
He'll always be a 'media darling'...
-
From The Guardian:
"Neil Lennon is emerging from the shadows of Martin O'Neill and Gordon Strachan. Celtic's manager paid tribute to two of his predecessors in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday night's win over Spartak Moscow. O'Neill never garnered 10 points from a Champions League group nor led a Celtic team to the last 16, despite the significant resources at his disposal."
I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way.
Villadroid had better get to a Celtic forum. They may need an "alternative viewpoint to the prevailing narrative".
-
From The Guardian:
"Neil Lennon is emerging from the shadows of Martin O'Neill and Gordon Strachan. Celtic's manager paid tribute to two of his predecessors in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday night's win over Spartak Moscow. O'Neill never garnered 10 points from a Champions League group nor led a Celtic team to the last 16, despite the significant resources at his disposal."
I think a wider reappraisal of MON is under way.
Villadroid had better get to a Celtic forum. They may need an "alternative viewpoint to the prevailing narrative".
But isn't he just saying that the prevailing narrative of the fans has shifted since Lennon succeeded in getting to the knock-out stage of the CL?
But I am glad to find that you accept that there is a prevailing narrative, now.
-
Since the the early 80s evry good Villa spell has been followed by a slump. 81-83 led to relegation. 89-90 led to us nearly going down the following year. BFR and Sir Brian Little led to another slump that Gregory rescued. His time ended up with us nearly going down under the Second Coming. O'Leary finished 6th and then left us (as did Doug0 in all sorts of bother. In rode Randy and MON and we looked again as if we were going places. It didn't happen and again we're left fighting for scraps.
We usually come out of our slump quicker than we have which adds to the current angst. But to try and seel O'Neill and some sort of demi-God for having the most resources given to him than most nmanagers in the game at the same time, and to hold onto his coat tails because of finishing 6th 3 times is frankly under selling ourselves as a club, and buying into the media's representation of us. We have finished 6th or above 11 times since 1980. Winning 5 trophies in that time.
Since football began we have finsihed 6 or above 9 times in 20 seasons. We have finshed 7th - 9th 4 times. We have been in the final of Cup competitions 4 times and semi-finalists 4 times. (None of these figures include Intertoto or the Peace Cup before anyone starts).
Now tell me again Villadroid, exactly what did MON do that was so fantastic? He performed to what is teh Villa average despite having more money and better players than a lot of his predecessors over the last 30 years. The money argument is a non-entity here as that reared its head after his 4 season of not been able to do much better than what most Villa manager's do but with less resources on offer.
Plus, as been said, the way he left us will leave a sour taste in most people's mouths. That, as a fan, should come just about before everything. He cared about the club enough to drop us right in the sh*t when he knew we'd have very little time to do anything about it.
Absolutey spot on Peter.
-
But I am glad to find that you accept that there is a prevailing narrative, now.
So how would you answer Peter W's post?
-
But I am glad to find that you accept that there is a prevailing narrative, now.
So how would you answer Peter W's post?
There is an arguement that period O'Neill was competing - 2007 - 2010 was arguably a time when the top 4 was particularly strong. Chelsea, Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool were regularly competing in semi finals and finals of the Champions League.
I guess the question is if we had O'Neill's side this season, would we have a better chance of making that top four - I think we probably would.
-
I guess the question is if we had O'Neill's side this season, would we have a better chance of making that top four - I think we probably would.
Change that to definitely, but if we had O'Neill's first 11 this season we'd get so far and then fail, just as we did in 2009 and 2010, because he didn't know how to use a squad. But nobody's arguing that players like Barry, Milner and Young aren't missed.
-
But I am glad to find that you accept that there is a prevailing narrative, now.
So how would you answer Peter W's post?
His history looks accurate enough but I would not concur with his conclusions.
I would probably suggest that things have changed and that the PL is much less of a level playing-field than it was over the time frame he is talking of.
I would say that the accumulative effects of having access to Champions League income have split the top flight into haves and have-nots, and that this can be measured by the difference between Villa and Man United in the first Premier League and the difference now. And that the same growth in difference between all other clubs who have enjoyed a decade of CL income, could also be accounted for.
I would say that, sadly, the money that O'Neill had, which dependent on the source seems to vary between £65m-£85m, was not enough to bridge the gap created by a decade of CL money and the opportunity offered by the CL to increase a brand's appeal, in attracting sponsors etc.
So that would have been my response.
-
I would say that, sadly, the money that O'Neill had, which dependent on the source seems to vary between £65m-£85m, was not enough to bridge the gap created by a decade of CL money and the opportunity offered by the CL to increase a brand's appeal, in attracting sponsors etc.
So that would have been my response.
That might seem a fair point but then you look at what he spent that money on .
Dross like Harewood and Heskey, when he could have had Santa Cruz.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
-
He was a like a kid in a sweet shop on pocket money day.
Bought what he really fancied then instead of saving, he bought some other stuff he didn't really need or want just because he could and felt like he wanted to top up his bag of sweets.
Those extra sweets basically just rotted away at the bottom of the bag until he needed a sweet fix. Then he realised that he should have saved some pocket money for the rainy day rather than spunking it all away and had a strop with his mum and dad when they stopped giving him pocket money as he always wasted so much of it on stuff he didn't eat.
-
Then took his mum and dad to a tribunal and was given a pack of twizzlers.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
-
He was a like a kid in a sweet shop on pocket money day.
Bought what he really fancied then instead of saving, he bought some other stuff he didn't really need or want just because he could and felt like he wanted to top up his bag of sweets.
Those extra sweets basically just rotted away at the bottom of the bag until he needed a sweet fix. Then he realised that he should have saved some pocket money for the rainy day rather than spunking it all away and had a strop with his mum and dad when they stopped giving him pocket money as he always wasted so much of it on stuff he didn't eat.
and it's left a sour taste in our mouths.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
His failure rate on transfers was so high though, that if he hadn't wasted money on the likes of Davies, Harewood, Shorey, Sidwell, NRC and all the others who weren't worth the money paid, we might have cracked it. He wasn't a bad manager at all, he was just bad at getting value for money from a lot of his signings. Harry Redknapp did much better with a similar amount of money around the same time.
-
He had enough to get a top 4 place, he failed
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
His failure rate on transfers was so high though, that if he hadn't wasted money on the likes of Davies, Harewood, Shorey, Sidwell, NRC and all the others who weren't worth the money paid, we might have cracked it. He wasn't a bad manager at all, he was just bad at getting value for money from a lot of his signings. Harry Redknapp did much better with a similar amount of money around the same time.
Why is Reo-Coker considered a failiure? I get that a lot never rated him, but he made 102 appearances in four years and captained the club on several occasions.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
Spurs did it without Man City type investment.
-
What is your point Villadroid?
58 posts about an ex manager who is now being found out.
-
There was no doubt in Randy Lerner's mind that they were going for it after the cash splurge in 2008 I think it was - I remember MO'N saying something of the sort - by that I took it to mean Champions League, on that basis, the owner must have thought he had invested sufficiently - which I think in hindsight he had. It was just that Marlon Harewood, nor Zat Knight and the like were ever going to get us in the Champions League.
-
58 posts about an ex manager who is now being found out.
Oh, sorry, is there a limit?
-
Said in an Irish accent......
-
58 posts about an ex manager who is now being found out.
Oh, sorry, is there a limit?
Said in an Irish accent......
Well, is there a limit? Well, you might ask me that, and, listen .... I don't know, you tell me, is there a limit? You could pose me that question, and If you were to do so, I would totally accept that, you would be well within your rights, and were that the case, I would say that .... listen .... having been asked whether there were a limit, that would be a very good question.
*pushes glasses up nose*
-
Whilst not looking directly at the person asking the question at any stage.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
Spurs did it without Man City type investment.
I think we've done that one to death.
-
58 posts about an ex manager who is now being found out.
Oh, sorry, is there a limit?
You seem to think so,you have limited yourself to just one thread.
A good troll would post in other threads to cover.
-
58 posts about an ex manager who is now being found out.
Oh, sorry, is there a limit?
You seem to think so,you have limited yourself to just one thread.
A good troll would post in other threads to cover.
Wrong!
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
Everton were 4th without it, Tottenham also. Sandwiched between them were our 6th place finishes.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
Everton were 4th without it, Tottenham also. Sandwiched between them were our 6th place finishes.
As I said enough to have a go, not enough to make it the abject failure some revisionists are trying to pretend. We didn't quite make it and then it all imploded.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
Everton were 4th without it, Tottenham also. Sandwiched between them were our 6th place finishes.
As I said enough to have a go, not enough to make it the abject failure some revisionists are trying to pretend. We didn't quite make it and then it all imploded.
You said that we didn't make it because we didn't have man City type investment. I gave two examples where it didn't matter. And I reckon if Moyes and Redknapp had our players they would have done better then three 6ths.
-
He had enough money. No doubt it in my mind.
He had enough money to make a challenge, which we did. He had nowhere near enough to mean that it should be judged a failure for just coming up short, for that you need Man City type investment.
Everton were 4th without it, Tottenham also. Sandwiched between them were our 6th place finishes.
As I said enough to have a go, not enough to make it the abject failure some revisionists are trying to pretend. We didn't quite make it and then it all imploded.
You said that we didn't make it because we didn't have man City type investment. I gave two examples where it didn't matter. And I reckon if Moyes and Redknapp had our players they would have done better then three 6ths.
No I didn't, look at it again. I said we spent enough to have a go but it would take Man City type investment to guarantee it.
-
AAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!
-
I don't see that many are saying he was an abject failure. Three 6th places and a couple of Wembley appearances isn't abject failure. But given the money spent, and the achievements of clubs spending less or similar (Spurs and Everton as mentioned) you could certainly make a case for saying he was a relative failure, if not an abject one, by comparison.
Just look at the two sets of defences he bought after we lost Mellberg, Bouma and Laursen, and he flogged Cahill. Were Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne the sort of players that you envisage getting you to the Champions League, and looking like you belong there? Were they value for money? Was a profit made on a single one of them? Was it ever likely to be? Were any of them even as good as, let alone an improvement on, their predecessors? I think a quick "where are they now?" is quite informative on that matter.
-
Were Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne the sort of players that you envisage getting you to the Champions League, and looking like you belong there? Were they value for money? Was a profit made on a single one of them?
Yup, Zat Knight. Bought for £3.5m and sold for £4.5m.
With a big thanks to Gary Megson.
-
Were Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne the sort of players that you envisage getting you to the Champions League, and looking like you belong there? Were they value for money? Was a profit made on a single one of them?
Yup, Zat Knight. Bought for £3.5m and sold for £4.5m.
With a big thanks to Gary Megson.
Knight wasn't that bad.
-
I agree, he was perfectly fine. He goes down in the 'meh' column rather than the success or failure column for O'Neill's signings.
But probably not worth what we paid and definitely not worth what Bolton decided they wanted to give us for him.
-
Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne
Davies - £5m loss
Cuellar - £7.8m loss
Shorey - £3.5m loss
Collins - £3m loss
Young - not sure what he went for? Signed for £5.5m though wasn't it?
Beye - £1.5m loss
Dunne (assuming he goes on a free in the Summer) - £5m loss
That's not including NRC - £8.5m loss and Heskey - £3.5m loss, Sidwell £4.5m loss.
There's probably others too.
I know you don't expect a return from all transfers, but alot of those were in their prime ages when sold on, with the hike in prices of players we really should have been seeing a return on our investments.
Awful business.
-
Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne
Davies - £5m loss
Cuellar - £7.8m loss
Shorey - £3.5m loss
Collins - £3m loss
Young - not sure what he went for? Signed for £5.5m though wasn't it?
Beye - £1.5m loss
Dunne (assuming he goes on a free in the Summer) - £5m loss
That's not including NRC - £8.5m loss and Heskey - £3.5m loss, Sidwell £4.5m loss.
There's probably others too.
I know you don't expect a return from all transfers, but alot of those were in their prime ages when sold on, with the hike in prices of players we really should have been seeing a return on our investments.
Awful business.
young was sold for around 1m as far as I recall.
There are a few numbers that are debatable on the list but effectively that little lot cost us ~£45m in fees, let alone wages paid to a number of them to never see them start and others who we saw no more than 1 good season out of. All the wasted wages probably pushes the expense to well over £75m.
That money spent better is more than enough to have pushed us into the top 4.
-
I don't see that many are saying he was an abject failure. Three 6th places and a couple of Wembley appearances isn't abject failure. But given the money spent, and the achievements of clubs spending less or similar (Spurs and Everton as mentioned) you could certainly make a case for saying he was a relative failure, if not an abject one, by comparison.
Just look at the two sets of defences he bought after we lost Mellberg, Bouma and Laursen, and he flogged Cahill. Were Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne the sort of players that you envisage getting you to the Champions League, and looking like you belong there? Were they value for money? Was a profit made on a single one of them? Was it ever likely to be? Were any of them even as good as, let alone an improvement on, their predecessors? I think a quick "where are they now?" is quite informative on that matter.
as usual, posts that are right get ignored, spot on mate. MON failed his disciples try to say it wasn't so, sadly the facts speak louder than their apologetic rhetoric
-
I don't see that many are saying he was an abject failure. Three 6th places and a couple of Wembley appearances isn't abject failure. But given the money spent, and the achievements of clubs spending less or similar (Spurs and Everton as mentioned) you could certainly make a case for saying he was a relative failure, if not an abject one, by comparison.
Just look at the two sets of defences he bought after we lost Mellberg, Bouma and Laursen, and he flogged Cahill. Were Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne the sort of players that you envisage getting you to the Champions League, and looking like you belong there? Were they value for money? Was a profit made on a single one of them? Was it ever likely to be? Were any of them even as good as, let alone an improvement on, their predecessors? I think a quick "where are they now?" is quite informative on that matter.
as usual, posts that are right get ignored, spot on mate. MON failed his disciples try to say it wasn't so, sadly the facts speak louder than their apologetic rhetoric
We repent we repent, oh woe is me
-
Salifou £10,000pw on a 3 year contract.
Money down the Khazi.
-
I don't see that many are saying he was an abject failure. Three 6th places and a couple of Wembley appearances isn't abject failure. But given the money spent, and the achievements of clubs spending less or similar (Spurs and Everton as mentioned) you could certainly make a case for saying he was a relative failure, if not an abject one, by comparison.
Just look at the two sets of defences he bought after we lost Mellberg, Bouma and Laursen, and he flogged Cahill. Were Davies, Cuellar, Shorey, Knight, Collins, Young, Beye and Dunne the sort of players that you envisage getting you to the Champions League, and looking like you belong there? Were they value for money? Was a profit made on a single one of them? Was it ever likely to be? Were any of them even as good as, let alone an improvement on, their predecessors? I think a quick "where are they now?" is quite informative on that matter.
as usual, posts that are right get ignored, spot on mate. MON failed his disciples try to say it wasn't so, sadly the facts speak louder than their apologetic rhetoric
What a ridiculous statement. Yes, ktvillan makes an excellent set of points that I agree with but to say it is ignored because it is right 'as usual' is ludicrous.
-
He was a failure with the amount of money he had to spend.
-
He was a failure with the amount of money he had to spend.
And he is now doing the same at Sunderland.
-
When assessing the failure of the Lerner-O'Neill project it would seem that the best comparison would be with Everton.
There is no real comparison with Spurs because they have been richer than Villa for a long time and that accumulative wealth and a far more glamorous image puts them well above Villa in the recent pecking-order.
Everton represent Villa's closest benchmark because they have roughly the same turnover. History tells us that they have been a much better run club than Villa over the years and avoided the decades of under-achievement which stains Villa's history.
There is no doubting that Moyes is considered a top manager but I don't think this alone accounts for Everton's excellent performance since he arrived a decade ago.
More modest ambitions over a longer timetable and the loyalty of players like Tim Cahill are all factors which have to be taken into account.
Cahill was at Everton for 8 years and is considered his best buy, while Gareth Barry left as soon as his move from pedestrian defender to half decent midfielder, got him noticed.
-
When assessing the failure of the Lerner-O'Neill project it would seem that the best comparison would be with Everton.
There is no real comparison with Spurs because they have been richer than Villa for a long time and that accumulative wealth and a far more glamorous image puts them well above Villa in the recent pecking-order.
Everton represent Villa's closest benchmark because they have roughly the same turnover. History tells us that they have been a much better run club than Villa over the years and avoided the decades of under-achievement
There is no doubting that Moyes is considered a top manager but I don't think this alone accounts for Everton's excellent performance since he arrived a decade ago.
More modest ambitions over a longer timetable and the loyalty of players like Tim Cahill are all factors which have to be taken into account.
Cahill was at Everton for 8 years and is considered his best buy, while Gareth Barry left as soon as his move from pedestrian defender to half decent midfielder, got him noticed.
When you say Everton have been excellent during moyes 10 year reign can you tell me exactly how many trophies they have won during that time?
I do think though that had moyes had the money to spend that o Neill had then he as a manager would have achieved far more than o Neill did with the cash.
-
You can do well without winning a trophy Eastie, it's all relative.
-
He was a failure with the amount of money he had to spend.
And he is now doing the same at Sunderland.
It will be his last job , he wont get the chance to ruin another one.
-
You can do well without winning a trophy Eastie, it's all relative.
Do well yes , but big difference between doing well and doing excellent ris.
-
When assessing the failure of the Lerner-O'Neill project it would seem that the best comparison would be with Everton.
There is no real comparison with Spurs because they have been richer than Villa for a long time and that accumulative wealth and a far more glamorous image puts them well above Villa in the recent pecking-order.
Everton represent Villa's closest benchmark because they have roughly the same turnover. History tells us that they have been a much better run club than Villa over the years and avoided the decades of under-achievement
There is no doubting that Moyes is considered a top manager but I don't think this alone accounts for Everton's excellent performance since he arrived a decade ago.
More modest ambitions over a longer timetable and the loyalty of players like Tim Cahill are all factors which have to be taken into account.
Cahill was at Everton for 8 years and is considered his best buy, while Gareth Barry left as soon as his move from pedestrian defender to half decent midfielder, got him noticed.
When you say Everton have been excellent during moyes 10 year reign can you tell me exactly how many trophies they have won during that time?
One less than Birmingham City and the same as Villa.
-
"The legend of Mon." It sounds like a Star Trek film. Well, it does to me.
-
"The legend of Mon." It sounds like a Star Trek film. Well, it does to me.
If the little turd's solicitors see this thread, it will be 'The wrath of MON.'
-
MAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
I wonder if the Sunderland fans have acquired f*ckle status yet?
-
Merkin-skull on 5Live just then. The interviewer had the temerity to ask if he was experiencing any self doubt.
".................." peevish silence.
Then, "...am I full of self doubt? Let me tell you something, I've been in the game a long time, and I've never felt any self doubt."
You'd think, after all those years in the game, he'd have acquired a slightly thicker skin.
-
Huge game for them (and us) home to Reading on Tuesday.
Don't win that (as Reading are the worst team in this league) and I can see him walking as they have the two Manchester clubs, Spurs and Liverpool all over xmas.
-
Sunderland's loss will be Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool's gain.
Snigger.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
That is a gloriously ridiculous tweet. The 25 million quid on Fletcher and Johnson to add to the free signing of Cuellar on big wages clearly not enough. OR maybe it was simply spent as well as he spent money here.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
Holt will be the last man in the bunker next to O'Neill when the end comes.
If Short didn't make much cash available, why did he spunk so much on two home based players rather than doing a bit of scouting?
-
MON must count watching Match of the Day as scouting.
-
Oliver Holt=Villadroid.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
That is a gloriously ridiculous tweet. The 25 million quid on Fletcher and Johnson to add to the free signing of Cuellar on big wages clearly not enough. OR maybe it was simply spent as well as he spent money here.
Okay I'll bite!
But Villa have spent £50m since MON left and how that's working?
-
Has to do with? He spent 40 on 2 defenses that we have had to replace!!
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
The problem with the press is that they only equate 'backing a manager' with giving them a limitless pot to spend on limitless players. Same with regards to managers that they like - its like they will always use money as an excuse and not a manager to cut his cloth accordingly.
-
Stat of the day, Sunderland have won thier last 3 PL games against 10 men,it is 26 games sine they beat a team with 11 on the pitch.
-
"...am I full of self doubt? Let me tell you something, I've been in the game a long time, and I've never felt any self doubt."
That in a nutshell is why he got so far and no further. The absolutely unshakeable belief that his way is not just the right way but the only way.
-
"...am I full of self doubt? Let me tell you something, I've been in the game a long time, and I've never felt any self doubt."
That in a nutshell is why he got so far and no further. The absolutely unshakeable belief that his way is not just the right way but the only way.
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
-
"...am I full of self doubt? Let me tell you something, I've been in the game a long time, and I've never felt any self doubt."
That in a nutshell is why he got so far and no further. The absolutely unshakeable belief that his way is not just the right way but the only way.
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
You end up as Mike Bassett. Interesting comparison.
-
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
I imagine that's on his business card.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
That is a gloriously ridiculous tweet. The 25 million quid on Fletcher and Johnson to add to the free signing of Cuellar on big wages clearly not enough. OR maybe it was simply spent as well as he spent money here.
Okay I'll bite!
But Villa have spent £50m since MON left and how that's working?
And what's the relevance of that to MON's current troubles?
I seem to recall that half of the 50m was spent making sure we didn't get relegated a few months after he'd flounced off, leaving us right in the shit.
-
Stat of the day, Sunderland have won thier last 3 PL games against 10 men,it is 26 games sine they beat a team with 11 on the pitch.
They got lucky against Fulham as Fulham were pretty good with 10 men.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
That is a gloriously ridiculous tweet. The 25 million quid on Fletcher and Johnson to add to the free signing of Cuellar on big wages clearly not enough. OR maybe it was simply spent as well as he spent money here.
Okay I'll bite!
But Villa have spent £50m since MON left and how that's working?
And what's the relevance of that to MON's current troubles?
I seem to recall that half of the 50m was spent making sure we didn't get relegated a few months after he'd flounced off, leaving us right in the shit.
Someone was claiming that MON spending £25m at Sunderland and struggling was failure. So I merely applied the same simplistic analysis to Villa spending £50m.
Suddenly the criteria changed.
-
Someone was claiming that MON spending £25m at Sunderland and struggling was failure. So I merely applied the same simplistic analysis to Villa spending £50m.
Suddenly the criteria changed.
I think the argument was:
O'Neill's struggling at Sunderland
- because he wasn't backed in the summer
He spent £25M in the summer
- so what, Villa have spent £50M since he left.
The fourth point is of course irrelevant to the fact that O'Neill is struggling at Sunderland.
-
His post match interview on 5live earlier was painful.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
That is a gloriously ridiculous tweet. The 25 million quid on Fletcher and Johnson to add to the free signing of Cuellar on big wages clearly not enough. OR maybe it was simply spent as well as he spent money here.
Okay I'll bite!
But Villa have spent £50m since MON left and how that's working?
And what's the relevance of that to MON's current troubles?
I seem to recall that half of the 50m was spent making sure we didn't get relegated a few months after he'd flounced off, leaving us right in the shit.
Someone was claiming that MON spending £25m at Sunderland and struggling was failure. So I merely applied the same simplistic analysis to Villa spending £50m.
Suddenly the criteria changed.
Well, not really, as it is a totally spurious comparison. People are talking about him struggling at Sunderland, what Villa have done since then is of no relevance whatsoever.
Although, even if it was of relevance, MON has spent 25m having been at Sunderland exactly one year, whereas he left Villa 2.5 years ago.
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
That is a gloriously ridiculous tweet. The 25 million quid on Fletcher and Johnson to add to the free signing of Cuellar on big wages clearly not enough. OR maybe it was simply spent as well as he spent money here.
Okay I'll bite!
But Villa have spent £50m since MON left and how that's working?
And what's the relevance of that to MON's current troubles?
I seem to recall that half of the 50m was spent making sure we didn't get relegated a few months after he'd flounced off, leaving us right in the shit.
Someone was claiming that MON spending £25m at Sunderland and struggling was failure. So I merely applied the same simplistic analysis to Villa spending £50m.
Suddenly the criteria changed.
Even though Ozz never mentioned failure? He just pointed out that despite what Holt said MON was backed in the summer.
-
Most managers, if their chairman said "you've got 25m for the summer" (and that's still a decent amount, lest we forget), would think "how can i make this work as best I can" and inevitably look around Europe for some decent deals, to try to get value for money.
What MON did was what he always, always does, look at the obvious, zero-effort options, and buy them, and hang the cost. Johnson and Fletcher are both decent, but if his squad was so poor (as indicated by the suggestion Short needed to back him big), why spunk it all on those two players?
That is O'Neill all over, and that is why he peaked with us.
-
Martin really is like a prickly old hedgehog when anyone dares to question his ways or criticise him- quite amusing .
-
Most managers, if their chairman said "you've got 25m for the summer" (and that's still a decent amount, lest we forget), would think "how can i make this work as best I can" and inevitably look around Europe for some decent deals, to try to get value for money.
What MON did was what he always, always does, look at the obvious, zero-effort options, and buy them, and hang the cost. Johnson and Fletcher are both decent, but if his squad was so poor (as indicated by the suggestion Short needed to back him big), why spunk it all on those two players?
That is O'Neill all over, and that is why he peaked with us.
You could go as far to say look at what Lambert did with a similar amount. I know who I think spent the money in the summer the wisest.
-
What MON did was what he always, always does, look at the obvious, zero-effort options, and buy them, and hang the cost. Johnson and Fletcher are both decent, but if his squad was so poor (as indicated by the suggestion Short needed to back him big), why spunk it all on those two players?
I think that's right. However decent Fletcher and Johnson may or may not have been for them, it's glaringly obvious that the problems at Sunderland required more than a striker and a winger.
-
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
I imagine that's on his business card.
you will be a man Martin my son
-
What MON did was what he always, always does, look at the obvious, zero-effort options, and buy them, and hang the cost. Johnson and Fletcher are both decent, but if his squad was so poor (as indicated by the suggestion Short needed to back him big), why spunk it all on those two players?
I think that's right. However decent Fletcher and Johnson may or may not have been for them, it's glaringly obvious that the problems at Sunderland required more than a striker and a winger.
A manager that understands basic football tactics would be a great improvement.
-
Most managers, if their chairman said "you've got 25m for the summer" (and that's still a decent amount, lest we forget), would think "how can i make this work as best I can" and inevitably look around Europe for some decent deals, to try to get value for money.
What MON did was what he always, always does, look at the obvious, zero-effort options, and buy them, and hang the cost. Johnson and Fletcher are both decent, but if his squad was so poor (as indicated by the suggestion Short needed to back him big), why spunk it all on those two players?
That is O'Neill all over, and that is why he peaked with us.
To flesh this point out a little more, Lambert completely re-balanced our squad for less by not going for obvious targets, it's taking a bit of bedding in but most fans can see that his signings are, on the whole, all really good value. If sunderland's squad was poor enough to be struggling as they are then just buying those 2 was a big mistake.
-
A manager that understands basic football tactics would be a great improvement.
Basic tactics he's fine with. It's anything beyond that which is a problem.
-
I think comparisons with the way Lambert spent are going to make O'Neill look very poor in the long run. I doubt Sunderland will make a profit from their summer dealings, they paid top whack. I reckon we would at least double what we laid out this summer on out signings, maybe more.
-
A manager that understands basic football tactics would be a great improvement.
Basic tactics he's fine with. It's anything beyond that which is a problem.
I'd say passing is a rather basic tactic, something we saw very little of whilst he was a Villa, despite having players that were more than capable of understanding the basics.
-
I'd say passing is a rather basic tactic, something we saw very little of whilst he was a Villa, despite having players that were more than capable of understanding the basics.
True. Hooooof!
-
I can't believe you're all still banging on about him.
Oliver Holt, though? That is a seriously fucking weird man. Whenever I see him on telly I'm kind of repulsed, or... well, I'm not sure... When you look at him, it's like he's a different species or something he's that fucking confused.
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
-
I can't believe you're all still banging on about him.
Oliver Holt, though? That is a seriously fucking weird man. Whenever I see him on telly I'm kind of repulsed, or... well, I'm not sure... When you look at him, it's like he's a different species or something he's that fucking confused.
He looks like a bird, in both senses.
-
Martin really is like a prickly old hedgehog when anyone dares to question his ways or criticise him- quite amusing .
He has another hedgehog trait - hibernation - his hibernation period being March.
-
To be fair to MON he does his bit on helping the government keep the immigration numbers down.
-
I was one of his harshest critics and delighted to see the back of him but lets be fair he did provide some very happy days and enjoyable moments during his time here, it appears reading some posters as though he presided over a dreadful time .
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
Thanks, that made me chuckle!
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
Thanks, that made me chuckle!
Made me chuck up!
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
The most home games we ever won under him in his 4 league seasons was 10 in 07/08.
As a comparison when Spurs nicked 4th in 09/10 they won 14 out of 19 at home.
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
The most home games we ever won under him in his 4 league seasons was 10 in 07/08.
As a comparison when Spurs nicked 4th in 09/10 they won 14 out of 19 at home.
I take it i am wrong a fuckinggain then. FFS.
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
The most home games we ever won under him in his 4 league seasons was 10 in 07/08.
As a comparison when Spurs nicked 4th in 09/10 they won 14 out of 19 at home.
I take it i am wrong a fuckinggain then. FFS.
Chin up mate, you'll get there in the end.
-
I did not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. From my seat in K7 i saw some bloody good football being played with Ashley Young on the left Barry and Milner in Midfield with Laursen and Melberg in defence. I do not think MON was a hoof merchant at all. Just my view. And at least we bloody attacked every team that came to VP. What do we do now ? Pass the ball from side to side and gain no ground. Get well soon Stan and show them how a midfield should play ffs.
Thanks, that made me chuckle!
Made me chuck up!
Stan - the attacking creative midfielder we signed (for huge money and paid similar in wages) who was neither.
We paid a lot less for Westwood and he looks better than him already.
-
I will not slag Stan off as thought he was doing a good job for the team and admire him massively in a lot of ways. Westwood to me is going to be a top player, seems he did not get intimidated today and they would have been after him. I read Everton had been aftyer him as well, but he chose Villa, reckon with Benteke, he will be sought after massively. Lets hope they will want to stay and improve our club, I reckon Westwodd certainly will
-
Stan - the attacking creative midfielder we signed (for huge money and paid similar in wages) who was neither.
We paid a lot less for Westwood and he looks better than him already.
I like the look of Westwood a lot, but that's just daft.
-
Stan - the attacking creative midfielder we signed (for huge money and paid similar in wages) who was neither.
We paid a lot less for Westwood and he looks better than him already.
I like the look of Westwood a lot, but that's just daft.
Fair enough - just my opinion. Seem to remember Petrov contributing not very much in his first 10 games (save debut).
Took MON about a year to drop him and then we looked better for it.
Thereafter Stan was then carried by Barry, NRC, Milner didn't look so good when they weren't around.
Just my opinion
-
He certainly didn't like that question did he.
-
He certainly didn't like that question did he.
No he didn't!! Looked like he didn't know whether to cry or punch the interviewer when trying to answer it!
-
He certainly didn't like that question did he.
Indeed. He came across as extremely trucullent.
-
It reminded me of that clip when he was Celtic manager and got asked an awkward question.
-
I thin MON was great when he came to the club, but have to say as a fan he left the club in a bad state, but dont think it was just his fault. Chief exec and chairman should have taken hold
-
I thin MON was great when he came to the club, but have to say as a fan he left the club in a bad state, but dont think it was just his fault. Chief exec and chairman should have taken hold
Agree - it was like Ron Atkinson all over again. He made us relevant again. He made the same mistakes as BFR by playing his favourites and not utilising all the talent at his disposal. His football wasn't as good but we were a little more consistent.
Unlike BFR he did not win a cup against a brilliant ManU team by outwitting the old miserable one.
-
I thin MON was great when he came to the club, but have to say as a fan he left the club in a bad state, but dont think it was just his fault. Chief exec and chairman should have taken hold
Agree - it was like Ron Atkinson all over again. He made us relevant again. He made the same mistakes as BFR by playing his favourites and not utilising all the talent at his disposal. His football wasn't as good but we were a little more consistent.
Unlike BFR he did not win a cup against a brilliant ManU team by outwitting the old miserable one.
He doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph as Ron.
-
Villa under Big Ron.
Villa under MO'N
Admittedly slightly disingenuous.
-
That goal in the clip of Big Ron's Villa is amazing. Thanks for that.
-
What a fine team goal that first Yorke one is. I was right in the front of the Holte, remember it like yesterday.
-
I think Mon is a legend he's keeping us out the bottom 3
-
I think the curtain may well come down on his managerial reign If Sunderland lose to reading on Tuesday .
-
He has no self doubt.
-
He has no self doubt.
That really was an uncomfortable interview, he didn't handle that question well at all.
-
Watch from 2.15 onwards.
First he has a a hearing problem, then he answers a question with a question, then his face contorts and his eyes squint as he goes on about having been in the game a long time. I think Martin has turned into a grumpy old man.
[/youtube]
-
The moron. :)
-
Ha!Ha! O'Neill was really taken aback by that question. What an arrogant prick!
It would be delicious karma if we escaped relegation at Sunderland's/O'Neill's expense.
-
He's gone if they lose Tuesday. I think he needs four points from Reading and Southampton at home to stay in his job for the January window.
I think he'll get them and turn it around, have them stay up and leave at the end of the season. I hope not though.
-
He's gone if they lose Tuesday. I think he needs four points from Reading and Southampton at home to stay in his job for the January window.
I think he'll get them and turn it around, have them stay up and leave at the end of the season. I hope not though.
That would be my punt too.
Obviously if it transpired it will be spun by his media buddies as single handedly preventing Sunderland from becoming the next Leeds/Sheff Wed/Forest etc...
-
I think the term is "being found out". He'll be midweek wrestling with players next you watch.
-
I think comparisons with the way Lambert spent are going to make O'Neill look very poor in the long run. I doubt Sunderland will make a profit from their summer dealings, they paid top whack. I reckon we would at least double what we laid out this summer on out signings, maybe more.
Benteke £15m
Westwood £10m
Lowton £10m
Vlaar £7m
Guzan £6m (although you could still count him as a MON signing)
The above values would seem reasonable to me. The other signings may yet come good, and we are unlikely to make a loss on any of them with the possible exception of a small loss on KEA if his form doen't improve.
-
Lambert managed to tactically take care of Stoke yesterday. Something that MON did not manage once. We always looked shaky against them under him.
-
Arrogant prick.
-
As well as the display of world class peevishness in that interview, he is also at pains to point out that Sunderland were in this position when he arrived, implying that it's not really his fault, despite 12 months at the helm and a shitload of money spent. Defending the brand, to the bitter (quite bitter by the look of things) end.
-
He's now getting criticised on Sunday Supplement.
-
'He's a bit of a media darling' and 'He's bought exceptionally badly'.
-
'Underachieved to a spectacular level.'
-
'He pays over the odds every time, look at his deals at Aston Villa', 'His buys never have any imagination'.
-
Watch from 2.15 onwards.
First he has a a hearing problem, then he answers a question with a question, then his face contorts and his eyes squint as he goes on about having been in the game a long time. I think Martin has turned into a grumpy old man.
[/youtube]
What he said.
"I have been in the game a long time............there are not many times I have doubted myself"
What he didn't say.
"But this is one of them.".
-
Well, watching that has cheered me up a bit! Still, you can always rely on Patrick Barclay to stick up for him.
-
Lambert managed to tactically take care of Stoke yesterday. Something that MON did not manage once. We always looked shaky against them under him.
My thoughts too.
-
Watch from 2.15 onwards.
First he has a a hearing problem, then he answers a question with a question, then his face contorts and his eyes squint as he goes on about having been in the game a long time. I think Martin has turned into a grumpy old man.
[/youtube]
I thought he came across quite well to be fair.
-
He's now getting criticised on Sunday Supplement.
The media love in with MON is cooling I think. Snapping at reporters won't help him either.
-
Watch from 2.15 onwards.
First he has a a hearing problem, then he answers a question with a question,
I thought he came across quite well to be fair.
It is well worth analysing because it shows how good MON is at verbal interchanges.
By making out he hadn't heard him, he made the interviewer replace what was a reasonable question (Do you question your position?) with a stupid question (Are you filled with self-doubt?).
So, quite clever really.
-
He didn't really answer the question.
-
He didn't really answer the question.
Exactly!
-
I just wish he would go now.
I have a long enough list of clubs I want to get smashed every week (Small Heath, Baggies, Mancs x 2, Chelski, FC Racist, Arse, Spurz) without having to include Sunderland on the list.
-
I just wish he would go now.
I have a long enough list of clubs I want to get smashed every week (Small Heath, Baggies, Mancs x 2, Chelski, FC Racist, Arse, Spurz) without having to include Sunderland on the list.
I have a equally long list but it is only slightly different from yours. :D
-
I saw it the other way. I thought the first question was poor. 'Do you question your position'? What? As Sunderland manager? Poor question. He answered the follow-up self-doubt question head on.
-
90 pages! 90 fucking pages of speculation and obsession with an average manager who's struggling to avoid relegation with another team, in another region of the country. A manager who ultimately underachieved and fucked us over (although we'll surely never know the exact reasons for his behaviour). 90 pages of hindsight, and schadenfreude. Analysing his post-match interview! What next? Camping outside his house with an infra-red camara? I know I don't have to read it but doesn't it all seem a bit disproportionate?
-
90 pages! 90 fucking pages of speculation and obsession with an average manager who's struggling to avoid relegation with another team, in another region of the country. A manager who ultimately underachieved and fucked us over (although we'll surely never know the exact reasons for his behaviour). 90 pages of hindsight, and schadenfreude. Analysing his post-match interview! What next? Camping outside his house with an infra-red camara? I know I don't have to read it but doesn't it all seem a bit disproportionate?
The failure of the Lerner-O'Neill project and the death of all the dreams associated with that killing, was a huge event in Villa history and deserves discussing.
But I tell you what would really help, is if, as a German with insights into German football, you could start a thread giving us a few insights into the way Borussia Dortmund play.
I have heard several pundits say that Lambert's Villa are playing in the style of Dortmund and what with Lambert's links to that club, it didn't sound unreasonable.
So if you could write a piece and start a thread I am sure it would be really appreciated.
-
One of his spunk garglers on Sky Sports News, Patrick Barclay has just said
'We don't criticise him as he's been good at club after club after club after club.'
-
MO'N got another pasting from journalists on Sunday Suppliement this morning - anyone see it? Including one bloke from The Telegraph accusing him of never having imagination in the transfer market, never buying from abroad and paying over the odds for every single player.
-
MO'N got another pasting from journalists on Sunday Suppliement this morning - anyone see it? Including one bloke from The Telegraph accusing him of never having imagination in the transfer market, never buying from abroad and paying over the odds for every single player.
Yes, saw it just after Patrick Barclay's defence of him.
He still has journo's on his side though, mark my words, when he fucks off it will be all the fault of the ungrateful, impatient supporters and the tight fisted chairman.
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
-
Watch from 2.15 onwards.
First he has a a hearing problem, then he answers a question with a question, then his face contorts and his eyes squint as he goes on about having been in the game a long time. I think Martin has turned into a grumpy old man.
[/youtube]
I thought he came across quite well to be fair.
He actually looked like he was going to pass out towards the end of that interview, like he's on tranqulisers or something.
-
90 pages! 90 fucking pages of speculation and obsession with an average manager who's struggling to avoid relegation with another team, in another region of the country. A manager who ultimately underachieved and fucked us over (although we'll surely never know the exact reasons for his behaviour). 90 pages of hindsight, and schadenfreude. Analysing his post-match interview! What next? Camping outside his house with an infra-red camara? I know I don't have to read it but doesn't it all seem a bit disproportionate?
The failure of the Lerner-O'Neill project and the death of all the dreams associated with that killing, was a huge event in Villa history and deserves discussing.
But I tell you what would really help, is if, as a German with insights into German football, you could start a thread giving us a few insights into the way Borussia Dortmund play.
I have heard several pundits say that Lambert's Villa are playing in the style of Dortmund and what with Lambert's links to that club, it didn't sound unreasonable.
So if you could write a piece and start a thread I am sure it would be really appreciated.
Excellent - that's me told! You're a fucking tryer, I'll give you that!
-
On the subject of Sky Sports News.
Was I hearing things just when I thought I heard the commentator outside Man City's ground say.
'Here we are at the centre of the Universe!'
Please tell me it never happened.
-
On the subject of Sky Sports News.
Was I hearing things just when I thought I heard the commentator outside Man City's ground say.
'Here we are at the centre of the Universe!'
Please tell me it never happened.
It did. The reporter then went off to find Fergie and Mancini for a spot of skiing.
-
90 pages! 90 fucking pages of speculation and obsession with an average manager who's struggling to avoid relegation with another team, in another region of the country. A manager who ultimately underachieved and fucked us over (although we'll surely never know the exact reasons for his behaviour). 90 pages of hindsight, and schadenfreude. Analysing his post-match interview! What next? Camping outside his house with an infra-red camara? I know I don't have to read it but doesn't it all seem a bit disproportionate?
The failure of the Lerner-O'Neill project and the death of all the dreams associated with that killing, was a huge event in Villa history and deserves discussing.
But I tell you what would really help, is if, as a German with insights into German football, you could start a thread giving us a few insights into the way Borussia Dortmund play.
I have heard several pundits say that Lambert's Villa are playing in the style of Dortmund and what with Lambert's links to that club, it didn't sound unreasonable.
So if you could write a piece and start a thread I am sure it would be really appreciated.
Excellent - that's me told! You're a fucking tryer, I'll give you that!
Gott im Himmel!
-
Oliver Holt on Twitter.
Sunderland in real trouble now. Ellis Short didn't really back O'Neill in the summer.
Is that man sucking on MON pubes or something. Hes an idiot.
-
Didn't back him? What a load of old cockshit.
-
I can't believe you're all still banging on about him.
Oliver Holt, though? That is a seriously fucking weird man. Whenever I see him on telly I'm kind of repulsed, or... well, I'm not sure... When you look at him, it's like he's a different species or something he's that fucking confused.
not read the rest of the thread yet but I saw him wearing an alice band last week.
-
Didn't back him? What a load of old cockshit.
It's the same bollocks they came out with when he left us.
-
I can't believe you're all still banging on about him.
Oliver Holt, though? That is a seriously fucking weird man. Whenever I see him on telly I'm kind of repulsed, or... well, I'm not sure... When you look at him, it's like he's a different species or something he's that fucking confused.
not read the rest of the thread yet but I saw him wearing an alice band last week.
Yeah so did I. Beyond belief.
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
True, but misses the point a bit. MON is being defended for not being backed properly. Firstly, 25m is a decent amount of money by any measure. Secondly, if we'd "only" had 25m available, not many of us - had we been Sunderland fans - would have been hugely pleased by spunking the whole lot on those two.
Fletcher at 14m, or whatever it was, for example. He's a decent player, but surely, surely by scouting outside of the UK would find players of a similar level for way less $$$$
That's MON all over, though, just take the lazy option, and hang the cost. You can always flounce out if the money stops flowing, and there will be enough witless cheerleaders in the media to argue your corner. Although they seem to be an increasingly smaller group of late.
-
Fletcher and Johnson cost £50m when you factor in the wages MON put them
On
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
Personally I couldn't see the big fuss about Johnson.
Fletcher is decent but vastly over priced, typical O'Hasbeen purchase, he wouldn't dream of signing a Belgian for £7m.
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
And that the majority didn't want, and certainly not for that kind of money.
-
Alan Shearer off O'Neill's Christmas card list, quite nice about us though.
From The Sun.
MARTIN O’NEILL has faced some mighty games as a player and manager in his career.
None, however, in his 12 months in charge at the Stadium of Light will be bigger than tomorrow night’s visit of Reading.
I was with Alan Hansen on Match of the Day on Saturday night and he said he thought Sunderland would be OK.
I had to take issue with him because I can see nothing to suggest Sunderland will be in anything other than a season-long battle against the drop.
Right now they are looking like a team heading down.
The rot set in long before this season started.
O’Neill arrived after the departure of Steve Bruce and gave the club an immediate boost with seven wins from his first 10 games to hoist them up the table.
Then the season fizzled out and he now has a worse record this season than Bruce had when he got the push. It is just two wins from their last 23 league games.
Just as well O’Neill is not a Geordie like Bruce or he would have been hounded out by now!
As it is, the fans have not turned — but they are on the brink. If they don’t beat Reading at home tomorrow their patience will snap. I got to know Martin well from working with him for the BBC.
I hate to suggest people are facing the sack. But his next two games after tomorrow are Manchester United away then Southampton away.
Nobody will expect him to get anything at Old Trafford but he must be looking at four points in the other two.
It is looking like three for relegation from the current bottom six. I can see ingredients in three of them to suggest they have hope.
There are goals in Southampton, Wigan have been there before and know how to get out of it and on their day are a match for anyone.
Aston Villa are full of young players but that might be a good thing because they do have an energy and resilience about them.
I think QPR are doomed, Reading concede too many and right now Sunderland look destined to join them in the big drop.
For me, there is simply no goal threat about them. There are never enough players in the box.
It looks like they are hoping for a set-piece or something spectacular like they got from Adam Johnson against Chelsea on Saturday.
-
Papers are saying that Sunderland will be signing Dawson in the window for £5m.
How utterly predictable.
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
True, but misses the point a bit. MON is being defended for not being backed properly. Firstly, 25m is a decent amount of money by any measure. Secondly, if we'd "only" had 25m available, not many of us - had we been Sunderland fans - would have been hugely pleased by spunking the whole lot on those two.
Fletcher at 14m, or whatever it was, for example. He's a decent player, but surely, surely by scouting outside of the UK would find players of a similar level for way less $$$$
That's MON all over, though, just take the lazy option, and hang the cost. You can always flounce out if the money stops flowing, and there will be enough witless cheerleaders in the media to argue your corner. Although they seem to be an increasingly smaller group of late.
I took the point about the lazy option and agree with you; but I wanted to highlight the common misconception about loads of ££££ bringing instant and assured success.
I know it's a simple message ...
-
Papers are saying that Sunderland will be signing Damson in the window for £5m.
How utterly predictable.
Damson? Or Dawson?
-
Papers are saying that Sunderland will be signing Damson in the window for £5m.
How utterly predictable.
Damson? Or Dawson?
Both.
Dawson for defence and a jar of Damson Jam which he will shove at the back of the cupboard and never use, then he'll replace it with a jar of Strawberry.
Sainsburys will want £2 for the jam, but he'll insist on paying a fiver.
-
Papers are saying that Sunderland will be signing Damson in the window for £5m.
How utterly predictable.
Damson? Or Dawson?
Both.
Dawson for defence and a jar of Damson Jam which he will shove at the back of the cupboard and never use, then he'll replace it with a jar of Strawberry.
Sainsburys will want £2 for the jam, but he'll insist on paying a fiver.
Nicely manoeuvred, Fletch.
Got yourself out of a typing pickle, there. Preserved your reputation and ensured no one blew you a raspberry.
-
Just how does that cocksmoker Oliver Holt get work? He's an absolute moron.
-
Just how does that cocksmoker Oliver Holt get work? He's an absolute moron.
whats he said now?
-
Whatever it was its usually shite if its from him.
-
Just how does that cocksmoker Oliver Holt get work? He's an absolute moron.
whats he said now?
That MON wasn't backed this summer.
Aside from that, he just has a very punchable face.
I'd possibly give up my Supercar track day in the spring to punch him in the face. What a red letter day.
-
Didn't back him? What a load of old cockshit.
The thing is, whenever i talk to my non villa supporting mates about O'Neil at villa, they have no idea how much money he actually spent with us such were the unimaginative signings he made. They look at me like i'm pissed when i tell them we were up there with the higher spending clubs for a couple of seasons.
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
Fletcher at 14m, or whatever it was, for example. He's a decent player, but surely, surely by scouting outside of the UK would find players of a similar level for way less $$$$
Michu for 2 million being the prime example..
-
Didn't back him? What a load of old cockshit.
The thing is, whenever i talk to my non villa supporting mates about O'Neil at villa, they have no idea how much money he actually spent with us such were the unimaginative signings he made. They look at me like i'm pissed when i tell them we were up there with the higher spending clubs for a couple of seasons.
That really annoys me too. I was talking to some guys at work from down south a few weeks back, and one of them said "I bet you wish you had MON back, you've been crap since he left". I didn't know where to start.
-
Spending £25m on Fletcher and Johnson was ludicrous and just shows how shit and unimaginative his transfer dealings are.
Two players that some on here wanted us to sign in the close-season ...
...but not for that kind of money
-
I never knew until recently that Oliver Holt is the son of Emily Bishop.
-
Papers are saying that Sunderland will be signing Dawson in the window for £5m.
How utterly predictable.
suprised he does not end up at QPR but could be in championship next season who ever he goes too.
-
Didn't back him? What a load of old cockshit.
The thing is, whenever i talk to my non villa supporting mates about O'Neil at villa, they have no idea how much money he actually spent with us such were the unimaginative signings he made. They look at me like i'm pissed when i tell them we were up there with the higher spending clubs for a couple of seasons.
I have exactly the same conversations . after my rant they always reply , see what you mean , a lot of crap there for big money.
-
just watching sunday supplement now , with the MON hammering. Loving it ;)
-
Patrick Barkley just said
Just because MON is a nice man does not protect him.
Is he a nice man ? Im not so sure . Spoilt brat maybe .
-
Didn't back him? What a load of old cockshit.
The thing is, whenever i talk to my non villa supporting mates about O'Neil at villa, they have no idea how much money he actually spent with us such were the unimaginative signings he made. They look at me like i'm pissed when i tell them we were up there with the higher spending clubs for a couple of seasons.
That really annoys me too. I was talking to some guys at work from down south a few weeks back, and one of them said "I bet you wish you had MON back, you've been crap since he left". I didn't know where to start.
I had the same from a load of Leeds fans on the train back on Saturday. They were amazed when I told them what was spent on Beye, Harewood, Sidwell, Davies, Shorey etc etc.
They also wanted Delph and Lichaj back!
-
Did they seem surprised when you said they could have them back.
-
Did they seem surprised when you said they could have them back.
Yes! They told me that within 2 weeks of starting to chant "Fabian Delph is not for sale, Fabian Delph is not for sale etc etc" at Elland Road, Bates had sold him to us!
-
He seemed very subdued when interviewed on Match of the Day on Saturday.
Is he ok do we think? *concerned face*
-
Is he ok do we think? *concerned face*
Am I okay? Am....I .....What I think you're asking me is, Am I okay? Let me tell you, i've worked in football for many, many years and....uncomfortable pause....i'm fully confident that i'm....okay.
-
I'm more concerned by the emotional state of those on here who just can't let him go. Take his photo out of your wallet, rip it up and move on. It hurts but bitterness is never a good state to be in.
-
Interesting game tomorrow. Seems a good chance one manager will be out of a job on Wednesday.
-
I for one am utterly amazed that people are discussing the legacy of a former, high profile manager of ours on this thread.
What kind of madness is this?
-
Discussing is one..... No I can't do this again I'm running away bye.
I heart Martin
-
I never knew until recently that Oliver Holt is the son of Emily Bishop.
Maybe MON caught the bloke who killed his dad with a shotgun.
The legend!
-
He came back of his own accord a few years back.
-
I'm more concerned by the emotional state of those on here who just can't let him go. Take his photo out of your wallet, rip it up and move on. It hurts but bitterness is never a good state to be in.
I'll stop feeling bitterness towards him once the after-effects of his time at the club have subsided (which they are only *just* starting to). Deal?
-
He came back of his own accord a few years back.
Jamaica?
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
-
Doing a job by keeping a club below us, left us in the shit and did it on purpose hate the twat, no chance of him ever returning as Villa manager, get over him , fuck him and move on
-
He came back of his own accord a few years back.
For a second I thought you were talking about O'Neill.
I now have indigestion.
-
Doing a job by keeping a club below us
Fair point! O'Neill for Sunderland!
-
I'm more concerned by the emotional state of those on here who just can't let him go. Take his photo out of your wallet, rip it up and move on. It hurts but bitterness is never a good state to be in.
I'll stop feeling bitterness towards him once the after-effects of his time at the club have subsided (which they are only *just* starting to). Deal?
Problem is it just comes across all Jilted John, "she's a slag and he's a creep, she's a tart, he's very cheap...". We all know that he left us in the lurch but it's two and half years ago now.
-
We talked about BFR and John Gregory for years after they left. It happens.
-
Problem is it just comes across all Jilted John, "she's a slag and he's a creep, she's a tart, he's very cheap...". We all know that he left us in the lurch but it's two and half years ago now.
The leaving us in the lurch bit is only part of it for me. Yes it's 2 and a half year later, but now we're finally seeing the deadwood being cleared and us being able to start afresh.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
-
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
That's not a real quote is it? It can't be. Imagine saying that when you're where they are in the table.
The thing is, that's what a lot on here used to believe - that there wasn't anyone around who could do a better job than him.
-
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
That's not a real quote is it? It can't be. Imagine saying that when you're where they are in the table.
The thing is, that's what a lot on here used to believe - that there wasn't anyone around who could do a better job than him.
At the time he was appointed, there probably realistically wasn't.
-
At the time he was appointed, there probably realistically wasn't.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But they were still saying it three years later.
-
At the time he was appointed, there probably realistically wasn't.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But they were still saying it three years later.
Who are they, the voices in your head
-
Sorry to talk about another ex manager, but that quote is up there with:
“I know that some people have sought to perpetuate a myth that I am a naturally defensively-minded manager. However, this is a case of certain people not letting the facts get in the way of a good story. I can assure you that my appetite for attacking, winning football is second to none."
-
Local TV news just showed their next 5 matches after the Reading game, can see them failing to get a single point from any of them, Southampton away is the 'easiest'.
-
We talked about BFR and John Gregory for years after they left. It happens.
I still talk about The Doc.
-
I'm more concerned by the emotional state of those on here who just can't let him go. Take his photo out of your wallet, rip it up and move on. It hurts but bitterness is never a good state to be in.
I'll stop feeling bitterness towards him once the after-effects of his time at the club have subsided (which they are only *just* starting to). Deal?
Problem is it just comes across all Jilted John, "she's a slag and he's a creep, she's a tart, he's very cheap...". We all know that he left us in the lurch but it's two and half years ago now.
We still talk about Andy Gray and Steve Hodge from time to time.
Maybe it's just that we're revelling in his current misfortune. Basically being as spiteful and hateful as he was when he fucked off at the start of a new season.
-
Five days before. Contemptible bastard.
-
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
That's not a real quote is it? It can't be. Imagine saying that when you're where they are in the table.
The thing is, that's what a lot on here used to believe - that there wasn't anyone around who could do a better job than him.
Sounds more like fake confidence to me. Seems to me he is coming apart at the seams. He will keep them up then leave to become a TV pundit.
-
We'll stop talking about him when he get's the brass tack from Sunderland, he'll retire then so we'll (hopefully) never hear from him again.
Unless he tries to do his piss weak Clough impersonation as a pundit on BBC.
His journo cabal will then write glowing tributes that would make Alex Ferguson blush.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
Has any one mentioned that he is a concieted, stubborn, ego maniac with no Plan B?
Same team, same tactics and same results. Cant say we didnt warn you.
-
The arrogance of the man can be measured by his radio statement today that Sunderland are in exactly the same position as when he arrived at the club. Only a man as self referential as O'Neill could say that as though it was some sort of achievement.
-
The arrogance of the man can be measured by his radio statement today that Sunderland are in exactly the same position as when he arrived at the club. Only a man as self referential as O'Neill could say that as though it was some sort of achievement.
Yes, except another 25m down on transfers.
Mind you, O'Neill never did worry himself too much about transfer money, did he?
-
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
That's not a real quote is it? It can't be. Imagine saying that when you're where they are in the table.
The thing is, that's what a lot on here used to believe - that there wasn't anyone around who could do a better job than him.
I had to double check as well (sorry to the original poster!) but this has been widely reported and directly quoted.
Staggering really.
-
As long as Sunderland don't win their game against Reading, I'll be happy. If push came to shove, I'd obviously Reading be relegated than us, but given Brian McDermott's managerial background, I have a sneaking admiration for his achievements.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
Has any one mentioned that he is a concieted, stubborn, ego maniac with no Plan B?
Same team, same tactics and same results. Cant say we didnt warn you.
Yes Hawkeye, to be fair it's been mentioned once or twice.
-
Take on a Team in difficulty and get the fans, media and team fired up.-Tick
Give them simple instructions, get the ball foorward early, get the back 4 to defend and hoof it.(Plan A) -Tick
Drop players that are past thier sell by date.-Tick
Promote some unknown youth to the first team and get him to run through walls.-Tick
A few results, fans start believing, the volume at home games gets turned up. -Tick
What can possibly go wrong?
Spends transfer budget on overpriced british based players, ignoring the obvious gaps in the squad. X
Continue with Plan A
Plan A not working- Tick
Keep playing the same players week in week out Tick
Injuries to key players. Tick
Play players out of position.Tick
Plan A Still not working Tick
Keep going with Plan A Tick
Start making ludicrous comments to the Press. Tick
-
Take on a Team in difficulty and get the fans, media and team fired up.-Tick
Give them simple instructions, get the ball foorward early, get the back 4 to defend and hoof it.(Plan A) -Tick
Drop players that are past thier sell by date.-Tick
Promote some unknown youth to the first team and get him to run through walls.-Tick
A few results, fans start believing, the volume at home games gets turned up. -Tick
What can possibly go wrong?
Spends transfer budget on overpriced british based players, ignoring the obvious gaps in the squad. X
Continue with Plan A
Plan A not working- Tick
Keep playing the same players week in week out Tick
Injuries to key players. Tick
Play players out of position.Tick
Plan A Still not working Tick
Keep going with Plan A Tick
Start making ludicrous comments to the Press. Tick
When things go tits up, get your mates in the press to say you were never given enough funds. Tick
Rufuse to accept that you have to work under the same financial conditions as every other football manager. Tick
Use post match press coferences to claim how well your team played despite being on the back foot for 85 minutes. Tick
Remind everybody that will listen you are the 'Son of Clough'. Tick
Remind everybody that will listen that the ambitions of the club and fans are unrealistic. Tick
-
Couldn't be bothered to read through it.
In my view, O'Neill was a twat.
I will discuss the appointment and retention of subsequent managers with those who wish to do so.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Do O'Neill and Berlusconi have the same scriptwriter?
-
Can we have utopia, and get O'Neill walking to then be replaced with Dolly or Eck? Sorry Sunderland, but while we are struggglin, laughing at your plight is kind of enjoyable.
MON and Eck, and indeed DOL have come out with some right stinky shite since leaving the Villa, but that one from MON just says everything about the little weasel.
-
Couldn't be bothered to read through it.
In my view, O'Neill was a twat.
I will discuss the appointment and retention of subsequent managers with those who wish to do so.
Come on dc5 stop sitting on the fence - what did you really think of him ?
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
Still in denial davey my old friend? Lose tonight and those blinkers may well disappear- the end is nigh!
-
the end is nigh!
That's not until the 21st.
-
Did anyone else hear Neil Lennon on 5Live on Sunday?
The interview was about Celtic's European exploits this season. The interviewer mentioned that it had been done without spending loads of money.
Lennon casually said something along the lines that after MON left, the club had to tighten it's belt regards transfer policy and that they were only now starting to come out of it.
Proof that in MON's case history does repeat it's self ad nauseum.
-
Did anyone else hear Neil Lennon on 5Live on Sunday?
The interview was about Celtic's European exploits this season. The interviewer mentioned that it had been done without spending loads of money.
Lennon casually said something along the lines that after MON left, the club had to tighten it's belt regards transfer policy and that they were only now starting to come out of it.
Proof that in MON's case history does repeat it's self ad nauseum.
What else can we blame him for - the royal hoax calls, Jimmy Savile, why Barry wasn't on the pitch?
-
Did anyone else hear Neil Lennon on 5Live on Sunday?
The interview was about Celtic's European exploits this season. The interviewer mentioned that it had been done without spending loads of money.
Lennon casually said something along the lines that after MON left, the club had to tighten it's belt regards transfer policy and that they were only now starting to come out of it.
Proof that in MON's case history does repeat it's self ad nauseum.
What else can we blame him for - the royal hoax calls, Jimmy Savile, why Barry wasn't on the pitch?
Why didn't Barry take the Penalty? I've missed that one!
-
We're in the nervous nineties, who is going to nudge one down to fine leg for the century?
-
Villadroid's gone quiet. He needs to deliver a googly, or at least a yorker.
-
He doesn't want to sound boastful but he's the best man for the job...Cock
-
Did anyone else hear Neil Lennon on 5Live on Sunday?
The interview was about Celtic's European exploits this season. The interviewer mentioned that it had been done without spending loads of money.
Lennon casually said something along the lines that after MON left, the club had to tighten it's belt regards transfer policy and that they were only now starting to come out of it.
Proof that in MON's case history does repeat it's self ad nauseum.
What else can we blame him for - the royal hoax calls, Jimmy Savile, why Barry wasn't on the pitch?
Can't remember if he was playing Barry out of position when he was injured.
-
Did anyone else hear Neil Lennon on 5Live on Sunday?
The interview was about Celtic's European exploits this season. The interviewer mentioned that it had been done without spending loads of money.
Lennon casually said something along the lines that after MON left, the club had to tighten it's belt regards transfer policy and that they were only now starting to come out of it.
Proof that in MON's case history does repeat it's self ad nauseum.
Considering how much less Spurs spent, the much smaller wage bill they had, not to mention the great football they served up compared to the hoof and get it to Ashley approach under MON, the £125m he spent was a great case of pearls to pigs.
-
Villadroid's gone quiet. He needs to deliver a googly, or at least a yorker.
He's probably on the pan delivering a log or three. It's his biggest game of the season tonight; lose it and the Blessed One will be a goner.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
What you want is for him to be sacked before January. That gives the new manager a window to sort them out and save them, and MON's bubble is well and truly burst. Jackpot.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
What you want is for him to be sacked before January. That gives the new manager a window to sort them out and save them, and MON's bubble is well and truly burst. Jackpot.
I was just in the middle of writing something very similar, seeing him sacked would be like a great big slice of Karma after the way he left us and completes 1 half of the recovery of our club after his time here (the other is for us get back into the top half of the table).
-
I can see MON walking before he's sacked.
But then I can also see him turning it around there and keeping them up, if I'm being honest!
-
I can see MON walking before he's sacked.
But then I can also see him turning it around there and keeping them up, if I'm being honest!
He may well keep them up but that is not good enough for a club like Sunderland and their fan base- o Neill spent in the summer and the ambition was to aim for mid table 0r a top 10 finish - even if they avoid relegation it will still be very poor .
I think if they do lose tonight mon will probably go by mutual consent.
-
Of course old MON will do everything to ensure his reputation is intact.
Limited manager with a lot of funds didn't quite deliver what he should.
-
I can see MON walking before he's sacked.
But then I can also see him turning it around there and keeping them up, if I'm being honest!
He may well keep them up but that is not good enough for a club like Sunderland and their fan base- o Neill spent in the summer and the ambition was to aim for mid table 0r a top 10 finish - even if they avoid relegation it will still be very poor .
I think if they do lose tonight mon will probably go by mutual consent.
It depends on where they finish granted, but if you take our own thoughts on him away for a moment and he achieves mid table or better form for a decent chunk of the remainder of the season, then is there an argument he deserves another crack next year? Pretty similar to us under Houllier where we finished 9th, but our 2nd half of the season form (post Bent) was top 6 level?
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
What you want is for him to be sacked before January. That gives the new manager a window to sort them out and save them, and MON's bubble is well and truly burst. Jackpot.
To be honest they are direct rivals for relegation with us at the moment, so it's anyone down as long as Villa survive. It'd just be an added bonus if O'Neill got relegated.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
What you want is for him to be sacked before January. That gives the new manager a window to sort them out and save them, and MON's bubble is well and truly burst. Jackpot.
To be honest they are direct rivals for relegation with us at the moment, so it's anyone down as long as Villa survive. It'd just be an added bonus if O'Neill got relegated.
I want all the teams in or around us to struggle. Dog eat Dog. We need the cushion of shit teams below us continuing to struggle.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
What you want is for him to be sacked before January. That gives the new manager a window to sort them out and save them, and MON's bubble is well and truly burst. Jackpot.
Missing from all this logic is we need him to stay to ensure we have one more team in the quagmire of the relegation scrap with us to stay in it.
-
re Sunderland, their nightmare scenario is still being in trouble come the end of Feb, and MON still undergoing his traditional fade around that time of year.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
True and I think the Europa league and the ridiculous amount of games in it can really derail teams unless they have really big squads- Newcastle look a shadow of last season.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
The other factor-is it better for Villa if Reading lose and stay detached from the rest, or if Sunderland lose, stay below us, and Reading join the mix arund us. I think on balance it is probably best if Sunderland lose, because in the long term they are probably more of a threat to our survival. Then there is the added bonus of MON posibly being out of a job.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
True and I think the Europa league and the ridiculous amount of games in it can really derail teams unless they have really big squads- Newcastle look a shadow of last season.
I think it needs better luck with injuries and good management as well. Fulham may have dropped from 7th to 12th when they reached the final, but that was a team that had overachieved and almost been relegated before so it didn't do them too much harm.
Maybe not having a winter break costs our teams more than those from other countries mind.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
The other factor-is it better for Villa if Reading lose and stay detached from the rest, or if Sunderland lose, stay below us, and Reading join the mix arund us. I think on balance it is probably best if Sunderland lose, because in the long term they are probably more of a threat to our survival. Then there is the added bonus of MON posibly being out of a job.
Happy with a draw, it keeps them both in it without the momentum of a win.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
The other factor-is it better for Villa if Reading lose and stay detached from the rest, or if Sunderland lose, stay below us, and Reading join the mix arund us. I think on balance it is probably best if Sunderland lose, because in the long term they are probably more of a threat to our survival. Then there is the added bonus of MON posibly being out of a job.
Happy with a draw, it keeps them both in it without the momentum of a win.
a 0-0. That would still get the Sunderland fans backs up.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
The other factor-is it better for Villa if Reading lose and .stay detached from the rest, or if Sunderland lose, stay below us, and Reading join the mix arund us. I think on balance it is probably best if Sunderland lose, because in the long term they are probably more of a threat to our survival. Then there is the added bonus of MON posibly being out of a job.
Happy with a draw, it keeps them both in it without the momentum of a win.
a 0-0. That would still get the Sunderland fans backs up.
Seems the best compromise. 1 of 3 possible points has gone to waste. Would be a reasonably good result for Reading, and still leave MON's position fragile. And wouldn't it be the icing on the cake if Villa went throughto the LC semi-final at the same time.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
Maybe why Bent has been linked with them.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
Maybe why Bent has been linked with them.
They don't look inventive enough in midfield to me. In fact, the problem is similar to us, and like us it won't be solved by signing a poacher forward who doesn't get involved much in build-up.
-
Because Bent isn't PL first choice, he is linked with everyone - newpapers trying to make a story.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
And through the majority of last season there were quite a few 'we should follow the Newcastle approach' posts on here.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
And through the majority of last season there were quite a few 'we should follow the Newcastle approach' posts on here.
Their scouting approach certainly, and I would argue that we have.
-
I think that Papa Cisse has stopped firing, which hasn't helped them.
When he arrived he looked like the next Messi for the first few games.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
And through the majority of last season there were quite a few 'we should follow the Newcastle approach' posts on here.
Their scouting approach certainly, and I would argue that we have.
It's difficult to say we have without comparing the behind the scenes stuff, but the results of some little known, yet very good, overseas players arriving can't be argued with. But then we've also brought in quite a few young lower league players, which wasn't a key to their success last year.
-
It's difficult to say we have without comparing the behind the scenes stuff, but the results of some little known, yet very good, overseas players arriving can't be argued with. But then we've also brought in quite a few young lower league players, which wasn't a key to their success last year.
Indeed, which I'd argue is us getting one up on them on this front. Also they're pretty Francocentric with their overseas signings, whereas we seem so far to have concentrated on Holland and Belgium - Phlegmocentric, if you like.
-
One thing I will say, there are plenty of shit teams around at the moment.
Look at Newcastle's form. They have gone from looking exciting and attacking last year to looking like a McLeish team this season.
And through the majority of last season there were quite a few 'we should follow the Newcastle approach' posts on here.
yes, I was one of them. From a finding players side of things they are what we should be doing. As opposed to being conned into buying overpriced British talent exclusively, it should be a mixed bag of unearthing gems in the domestic market and savvy purchases from abroad. Newcastle are being found out because Pardew, irrespective of what his mirror image was telling him hadn't suddenly become Mourinho and his coaching is being found out. Also, the players that were in such a rich vein of form, especially players like Cisse have completely cooled off.
-
It's difficult to say we have without comparing the behind the scenes stuff, but the results of some little known, yet very good, overseas players arriving can't be argued with. But then we've also brought in quite a few young lower league players, which wasn't a key to their success last year.
Indeed, which I'd argue is us getting one up on them on this front. Also they're pretty Francocentric with their overseas signings, whereas we seem so far to have concentrated on Holland and Belgium - Phlegmocentric, if you like.
two paracetamol should fix that
-
Cabeye being injured and the goals drying up for Cisse haven't helped.However it could also be the case that teams have worked them out I might be wrong but didn't WHU under Pardew do well initially ,got to a cup final then their form dropped.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
Still in denial davey my old friend? Lose tonight and those blinkers may well disappear- the end is nigh!
:D Hi Eastie, not in denial at all marra, we are poor at the minute no argument, yet if we win tonight we are up to 15th position or something. Though we are well amongst the relegation fodder now, the worst we have been in my opinion was against QPR at home, which was woeful. Rough run into January for us as well. Still confident he'll turn it around despite the QPR and Norwich results, QPR we got more than we deserved, Norwich we didn't get what we were due. It's just the way it is at the minute. Not happy, but not yet ready to slit my wrists either! ;)
-
Newcastle aren't the first team to suffer from the problems of a small squad and the additional strain of European football. It shows that qualifying can be something of a poisoned chalice as it doesn't bring the financial rewards that enable you to strengthen.
-
Newcastle aren't the first team to suffer from the problems of a small squad and the additional strain of European football. It shows that qualifying can be something of a poisoned chalice as it doesn't bring the financial rewards that enable you to strengthen.
True.
The financial rewards of the UEFA/Europa League are pretty meagre.
I remember seeing the figures somewhere, might have been on here.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
Still in denial davey my old friend? Lose tonight and those blinkers may well disappear- the end is nigh!
:D Hi Eastie, not in denial at all marra, we are poor at the minute no argument, yet if we win tonight we are up to 15th position or something. Though we are well amongst the relegation fodder now, the worst we have been in my opinion was against QPR at home, which was woeful. Rough run into January for us as well. Still confident he'll turn it around despite the QPR and Norwich results, QPR we got more than we deserved, Norwich we didn't get what we were due. It's just the way it is at the minute. Not happy, but not yet ready to slit my wrists either! ;)
You say that now, but sometimes all it takes is a prank phone call.
-
I think that Papa Cisse has stopped firing, which hasn't helped them.
When he arrived he looked like the next Messi for the first few games.
I thought Newcastle played well last night in a really good game. They definitely miss Cabaye and a huge part of Cisse misfiring is the fact he is being played out wide and doesn't seem to be able to play well with Ba as a pair. Newcastle will finish top eight with ease and I would love us to have players the quality of Ben Arfa,Cabaye and Colcoccini.
-
Did anyone else hear Neil Lennon on 5Live on Sunday?
The interview was about Celtic's European exploits this season. The interviewer mentioned that it had been done without spending loads of money.
Lennon casually said something along the lines that after MON left, the club had to tighten it's belt regards transfer policy and that they were only now starting to come out of it.
Proof that in MON's case history does repeat it's self ad nauseum.
Loads of my celtic supporting mates told me exactly the same thing. Left the club in a financial mess.
-
I think if anyone ever questioned the ego of the man, this quote should end all debate -
- '"I don't want to sound wildly boastful, but not only am I the best man for the job, I am actually the only man for the job."
Just read this on the BBC site. Amazed there are not a lot, lot more comments about it. Would love a Sunderland view on that level of arrogance. What a cock.
He's right Jim. ;) There's a view from Sunderland.
Still in denial davey my old friend? Lose tonight and those blinkers may well disappear- the end is nigh!
:D Hi Eastie, not in denial at all marra, we are poor at the minute no argument, yet if we win tonight we are up to 15th position or something. Though we are well amongst the relegation fodder now, the worst we have been in my opinion was against QPR at home, which was woeful. Rough run into January for us as well. Still confident he'll turn it around despite the QPR and Norwich results, QPR we got more than we deserved, Norwich we didn't get what we were due. It's just the way it is at the minute. Not happy, but not yet ready to slit my wrists either! ;)
He will pick warnock, Dunne and salifou up cheap as you will be ok.
-
Newcastle aren't the first team to suffer from the problems of a small squad and the additional strain of European football. It shows that qualifying can be something of a poisoned chalice as it doesn't bring the financial rewards that enable you to strengthen.
True.
The financial rewards of the UEFA/Europa League are pretty meagre.
I remember seeing the figures somewhere, might have been on here.
Meagre is generous Mark. It's one of the major reasons that the tournament is completely dead, there's no great incentive to it.
-
Newcastle aren't the first team to suffer from the problems of a small squad and the additional strain of European football. It shows that qualifying can be something of a poisoned chalice as it doesn't bring the financial rewards that enable you to strengthen.
True.
The financial rewards of the UEFA/Europa League are pretty meagre.
I remember seeing the figures somewhere, might have been on here.
Meagre is generous Mark. It's one of the major reasons that the tournament is completely dead, there's no great incentive to it.
The fact it takes 19 games to win and the ridiculous idea to let champions league group third place teams join it at the knockout stage does no favours either.
-
Newcastle aren't the first team to suffer from the problems of a small squad and the additional strain of European football. It shows that qualifying can be something of a poisoned chalice as it doesn't bring the financial rewards that enable you to strengthen.
True.
The financial rewards of the UEFA/Europa League are pretty meagre.
I remember seeing the figures somewhere, might have been on here.
Meagre is generous Mark. It's one of the major reasons that the tournament is completely dead, there's no great incentive to it.
The fact it takes 19 games to win and the ridiculous idea to let champions league group third place teams join it at the knockout stage does no favours either.
The CL teams dropping in is an insult, to be honest.
You get teams who started qualifying rounds in July in that competition, but then you have CL bozos dropped in halfway through, it really is pretty insulting stuff.
I'd be livid if that year we lost in Moscow, our group had had Man City or United dropped into it.
-
Newcastle aren't the first team to suffer from the problems of a small squad and the additional strain of European football. It shows that qualifying can be something of a poisoned chalice as it doesn't bring the financial rewards that enable you to strengthen.
True.
The financial rewards of the UEFA/Europa League are pretty meagre.
I remember seeing the figures somewhere, might have been on here.
Meagre is generous Mark. It's one of the major reasons that the tournament is completely dead, there's no great incentive to it.
The fact it takes 19 games to win and the ridiculous idea to let champions league group third place teams join it at the knockout stage does no favours either.
The CL teams dropping in is an insult, to be honest.
You get teams who started qualifying rounds in July in that competition, but then you have CL bozos dropped in halfway through, it really is pretty insulting stuff.
I'd be livid if that year we lost in Moscow, our group had had Man City or United dropped into it.
The Europa league is very badly thought out and I could see in a way why o Neill would not take it seriously but the fact that we had played so many games to get that far and then chuck it in Moscow was bizarre- if you are not going to go for it then why play all those games to qualify and then get through the group stage only to toss it away in a knockout round.
-
The Europa is bollocks. An absolutely pointless competition that's far more trouble than it's worth and a disgrace to what used to be a fantastic competition (UEFA Cup).
I really don't care if Villa ever play in it again in its current format.
-
The strenthening of the Champions League, and by that I mean extension to include more clubs, has naturally hurt the UEFA Cup and it's bastard offspring. The money is so much less as there are so many less top clubs in it.
The answer is as obvious as it is unlikely to happen.
-
When they merge it with the Champions League and have one European Competition, the better as far as I'm concerned.
Alternatively, return back to the good old days of three competitions, but we all know that won't happen.
-
The Europa is bollocks. An absolutely pointless competition that's far more trouble than it's worth
I would go much further and suggest that if you were designing a means to protect the Champions League as a monopoly for the richest clubs and wanted to make it as difficult as possible for clubs of the second tier to break that monopoly, you could not do much better than invent something like the present Europa League system.
It absolutely ensures that no club of the second tier can possible have two good seasons in a row because their resources are stretched to the limit while even if they win it the money is not enough to strengthen their squad.
In short, it's a poisoned chalice.
-
Wouldn't it be nice if as this topic reaches page 100 tonight mr o Neill finds himself out on his ear after a defeat tonight.
-
Wouldn't it be nice if as this topic reaches page 100 tonight mr o Neill finds himself out on his ear after a defeat tonight.
Not really Eastie! ;D It would be better if it reached 100 pages while we rose up to 15th for a while! I like my proposal much better! ;D
-
Wouldn't it be nice if as this topic reaches page 100 tonight mr o Neill finds himself out on his ear after a defeat tonight.
Not really Eastie! ;D It would be better if it reached 100 pages while we rose up to 15th for a while! I like my proposal much better! ;D
You old scoundrel davey, hope you enjoy the 0-0 tonight!
-
Wouldn't it be nice if as this topic reaches page 100 tonight mr o Neill finds himself out on his ear after a defeat tonight.
Unfortunately, Sunderland losing would not make Villa any better.
Or, Villa winning make Sunderland any worse.
-
Wouldn't it be nice if as this topic reaches page 100 tonight mr o Neill finds himself out on his ear after a defeat tonight.
Unfortunately, Sunderland losing would not make Villa any better.
Or, Villa winning make Sunderland any worse.
Maybe not but it will br nice to see the football world see through the myth of mon and him depart in shame.
-
ONNNNNNNNNNNNNE HUNDRED!
-
I said ONNNNNNNEEEEEE HUNDRED!
-
And I can't fucking count!
-
I see a 0-0 at Sunderland tonight being the end of mon.
-
I see a 0-0 at Sunderland tonight being the end of mon.
Not while Oliver Holt is alive.
-
... it will br nice to see the football world see through the myth of mon and him depart in shame.
A monmyth - big prehistoric shaggy thing with tusks and well developed sense of self-justification?
-
... it will br nice to see the football world see through the myth of mon and him depart in shame.
A monmyth - big prehistoric shaggy thing with tusks and well developed sense of self-justification?
Don't be ridiculous, it's a town in Wales.
-
If they lose to Reading tonight, then they are in serious, serious trouble, and MON will be under real pressure.
I feel torn by all this. I like Sunderland, my best mate when i was a student in Newcastle, was a Sunderland fan, and I went to quite a few Sunderland matches with him, amongst them third division ones and a Wembley play off final, so I still have a liking for them.
I have to consider this against the fact I am sufficiently bitter still to want MON to fall on his arse.
*TURMOIL*
Monumental gubbing at Villa Park sees O'Neill relieved of duties with immediate effect with Sunderland in relegation zone with three games remaining. Caretaker manger, probably Malcolm Crosbie, steers them to safety.
-
If they don't win tonight he will be in trouble.
-
He's not the messiah, he's...
-
He's not the messiah, he's...
a spiteful pube-headed judas dwarf?
-
Got it in one.
-
If he walks tonight, this thread could hit the 200 mark.
-
I have 30 pages. It's the replies that need to be considered.
-
They did win.
Reading are shite and will finish bottom. Them and QPR are gone imo so just the one relegation spot to worry about.
-
Still think Sunderlands fixtures in the next few weeks will leave them with very little, he ain't out the woods yet!
-
I agree, Southampton away could be the death knell with the two Manchester clubs inbetween.
-
... it will br nice to see the football world see through the myth of mon and him depart in shame.
A monmyth - big prehistoric shaggy thing with tusks and well developed sense of self-justification?
Don't be ridiculous, it's a town in Wales.
Silly me
-
They did win.
Reading are shite and will finish bottom. Them and QPR are gone imo so just the one relegation spot to worry about.
You must be wrong because Michael Owen says QPR will survive. And Liverpool will finish 4th.
-
I also think that QPR can get out of this, Reading I think are toast they just have a very strange looking bloke as a manager that on appearance you would not ask to baby sit.
-
The only way I can see QPR staying up is they do an Albion and manage to stay up on a pretty low points total. Which would see us safe anyway. To hit the 40 point mark they need 33 points from 22 games, which is near enough the form needed to finish 6 or 7th (about 1.5 points per game). I just can't see them managing that.
-
Reading are shite and will finish bottom. Them and QPR are gone imo so just the one relegation spot to worry about.
Reading are by far the worst team in the division.
Clearly Matt Lucas can't make the step up with them.
-
I agree reading look down and out but I do think qpr will survive - I think it will be 2 of Sunderland , Wigan and Southampton.
-
Reading are shite and will finish bottom. Them and QPR are gone imo so just the one relegation spot to worry about.
Reading are by far the worst team in the division.
Clearly Matt Lucas can't make the step up with them.
Matt Lucas - that is quality, it is what clappy emoticons were made for.....
-
Reading look poor. QPR are going to really, really struggle to get 30 points on top of where we are now.
It is between us, Wigan, Sunderland and Southampton. We look pretty solid, but Southampton are scoring goals at home and look very decent there. If I was a Wigan or Sunderland fan, I would be very worried. Wigan have lost NZogbia and Moses from the last 2 seasons who kept them up. They will need that inspiration again.
-
I'd say Reading are nailed on to go down.
AAAAAAAAAAry is good at lifting teams, but it's a big ask at QPR, especially if he can't get the players and coaches he has in mind.
I'd love Sunderland to go down, but I think they've got enough quality.
With Wigan, it all depends if they go on one of their weird unbeaten runs towards the end of the season.
-
I'd say Reading are nailed on to go down.
AAAAAAAAAAry is good at lifting teams, but it's a big ask at QPR, especially if he can't get the players and coaches he has in mind.
I'd love Sunderland to go down, but I think they've got enough quality.
With Wigan, it all depends if they go on one of their weird unbeaten runs towards the end of the season.
I can't see the stand out player that Moses and NZogbia gave them in the past 2 seasons though. I think the run might come to an end and Woberto will be left with Uncle Dave looking a bit silly for not moving last summer. I hope so anyway!
-
I'd say Reading are nailed on to go down.
AAAAAAAAAAry is good at lifting teams, but it's a big ask at QPR, especially if he can't get the players and coaches he has in mind.
I'd love Sunderland to go down, but I think they've got enough quality.
With Wigan, it all depends if they go on one of their weird unbeaten runs towards the end of the season.
I can't see the stand out player that Moses and NZogbia gave them in the past 2 seasons though. I think the run might come to an end and Woberto will be left with Uncle Dave looking a bit silly for not moving last summer. I hope so anyway!
Always loved Moses when he was at Palace.
I dare say Lambert would have bought him had he have been here at that time.
But we had O'Neill, who treated lower league and overseas players like they were the reincarnation of Jimmy Savile.
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
Yeah, he used to say lots of nice things about him when he was with us just before we rolled over to have our tummies tickled.
He's quite happy to say nice things about people who he is just about to take three points from.
Case in point (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17713400)
-
I'd say Reading are nailed on to go down.
AAAAAAAAAAry is good at lifting teams, but it's a big ask at QPR, especially if he can't get the players and coaches he has in mind.
I'd love Sunderland to go down, but I think they've got enough quality.
With Wigan, it all depends if they go on one of their weird unbeaten runs towards the end of the season.
I can't see the stand out player that Moses and NZogbia gave them in the past 2 seasons though. I think the run might come to an end and Woberto will be left with Uncle Dave looking a bit silly for not moving last summer. I hope so anyway!
Always loved Moses when he was at Palace.
I dare say Lambert would have bought him had he have been here at that time.
But we had O'Neill, who treated lower league and overseas players like they were the reincarnation of Jimmy Savile.
I agree Fletch, I think players that have gone for modest fees that have been young and clearly talented over the last 3-4 season Lambert would have been in for, unfortunately we had Mad Martin, who had a shopping list from about 8 teams around the country. There were certain criteria. Must pay over the odds. Must double already stupid levels of wage etc...
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
Yeah, he used to say lots of nice things about him when he was with us just before we rolled over to have our tummies tickled.
He's quite happy to say nice things about people who he is just about to take three points from.
Case in point (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17713400)
And also in that piece he as good as says that Sunderland should be beholden to them for the players they have loaned them in the past. Which, to me, is as good as saying that having done them a favour he would expect one back in the shape of 3 points.
-
I remember watching one of those youtube compilations of moses when it became clear he was leaving Palace. It pissed all over anything for Delph or other players we were linked with. I dismissed it at the time as 1. I trusted MON, 2. We had the Fonz coming through (ooos) and ultimately 3) I do not trust Youtube.
But even at the time, at 2.5m it was worth the risk.
With MON that would never happen as it would require coaching and time, whereas with Lambert that sort of signing seems to be his MO.
-
I'd say Reading are nailed on to go down.
AAAAAAAAAAry is good at lifting teams, but it's a big ask at QPR, especially if he can't get the players and coaches he has in mind.
I'd love Sunderland to go down, but I think they've got enough quality.
With Wigan, it all depends if they go on one of their weird unbeaten runs towards the end of the season.
I can't see the stand out player that Moses and NZogbia gave them in the past 2 seasons though. I think the run might come to an end and Woberto will be left with Uncle Dave looking a bit silly for not moving last summer. I hope so anyway!
Jordi Gomez scored a hattrick for them the other week.
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
There are fewer more insulting things than having Ferguson patronise you.
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
There are fewer more insulting things than having Ferguson patronise you.
knows he is on for 3 points there
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
There are fewer more insulting things than having Ferguson patronise you.
knows he is on for 3 points there
Buttering up the opposition or telling them they have never had it so good.Remember him spouting off about the blues being a bigger club than Villa in the 50's ( he was on the whiskey then) a few days before he went to the sty when Bruce was their manager
-
I'd say Reading are nailed on to go down.
AAAAAAAAAAry is good at lifting teams, but it's a big ask at QPR, especially if he can't get the players and coaches he has in mind.
I'd love Sunderland to go down, but I think they've got enough quality.
With Wigan, it all depends if they go on one of their weird unbeaten runs towards the end of the season.
I can't see the stand out player that Moses and NZogbia gave them in the past 2 seasons though. I think the run might come to an end and Woberto will be left with Uncle Dave looking a bit silly for not moving last summer. I hope so anyway!
Jordi Gomez scored a hattrick for them the other week.
Don't see him being that consistent at the sharp end though
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
I'm sure he said nice things about our other former manager last season...same old bullshit from the red nosed one.
-
With money to spend in January I wonder what promising talent MON will bring to Sunderland? Downing on his way out of Liverpool? They might even get their money back on him.
-
So obviously Fergie wants "slave" clubs and fans judging by his comments on Sunderland fans reaction at the game last season:
"It was a disappointing reaction when you think of the number of players we've given (loaned) Sunderland over the years," said Ferguson.
"Jonny Evans and Danny Simpson got them promoted a few years back.
-
MON is not a bad manager, after all he gave us some of the more memorable days in the last 5 years,
but he is incredibly limited, with the way he's sees the game being played, team selections, substitutions and of coarse his dealings in the transfer market,
his biggest problem in my opinion is he has to have total control,
he is a control freak, he probably listenes to very few people, does not invest an awful lot of time in anybody elses opinion, and any one not towing the line or questioning his better judgment are seen as threats, a combination of these faults is why i feel he left so abruptly in the end at VP,
if he was to just concentrate on what he does well, bring a few trusted others into the 'team' he could have a good balance of motivation and technical knowhow,
however its all to late for him now, he is to old fashioned set in his ways, and stubborn, he will never change, yet he does have some outstanding qualities, but the Sunderland fans and even the media are now seeing that his day is up
-
So obviously Fergie wants "slave" clubs and fans judging by his comments on Sunderland fans reaction at the game last season:
"It was a disappointing reaction when you think of the number of players we've given (loaned) Sunderland over the years," said Ferguson.
"Jonny Evans and Danny Simpson got them promoted a few years back.
What, specifically is Ferguson referring to? What did the Sunderland fans do?
-
It is an 'insult' to question Martin O'Neill (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20733814)
There are fewer more insulting things than having Ferguson patronise you.
It is more like Muhammad Ali having a go at the armchair critics who had a go at Joe Bugner.
He just said that pontificating know-nothings who have never stepped into the ring, didn't have the right.
-
So obviously Fergie wants "slave" clubs and fans judging by his comments on Sunderland fans reaction at the game last season:
"It was a disappointing reaction when you think of the number of players we've given (loaned) Sunderland over the years," said Ferguson.
"Jonny Evans and Danny Simpson got them promoted a few years back.
What, specifically is Ferguson referring to? What did the Sunderland fans do?
They did a Poznan, during their game vs Utd, when news came through that Man City had won the league.
-
So obviously Fergie wants "slave" clubs and fans judging by his comments on Sunderland fans reaction at the game last season:
"It was a disappointing reaction when you think of the number of players we've given (loaned) Sunderland over the years," said Ferguson.
"Jonny Evans and Danny Simpson got them promoted a few years back.
What, specifically is Ferguson referring to? What did the Sunderland fans do?
They did a Poznan, during their game vs Utd, when news came through that Man City had won the league.
Ha! That's quite funny.
-
Class from the Sunderland fans..
-
Fergie must be dillusional if he thinks he helped them get promoted. So Man United haven't benefitted at all from getting their young players experience and having a club that was prepared to buy their cast-offs? And the other Sunderland players had nothing to do with their promotion? He really does sound like an idiot at times.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
Remember the spiteful way he left us?
Payback.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
Remember the spiteful way he left us?
Payback.
Yes I do, but I'm sure his ego would be more hurt if we just erased him from our memories.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
O'Leary's still not coming back Chris.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
O'Leary's still not coming back Chris.
Have you decided when to start the "Lambert Out" campaign, surely conceding a late goal yesterday is reason enough? ;¬)
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
O'Leary's still not coming back Chris.
Have you decided when to start the "Lambert Out" campaign, surely conceding a late goal yesterday is reason enough? ;¬)
Surely you can't expect to not discuss a man who's actions have had a massive effect on us over the last 2 and a half seasons, we were constantly being told by his Journo mates how brilliant he was and we truly did become Martin O'Neill's Aston Villa, it's since been proved that he isn't all that, so adding that to the vindictive way he left us means he'll be ripe for discussion for some time yet.
What next?
Don't have a go at McLeish? ;) ;)
-
Perhaps we should revisit Tuesday's 'piss-poor team' assertion? More topical.
-
Perhaps we should revisit Tuesday's 'piss-poor team' assertion? More topical.
Go ahead if it makes you feel big.
-
Touchy.
-
Touchy.
Not at all.
And for the record, I think we'll win the Champions League under Lambert.
-
Good for you, it's about time you cheered up. (I never said that BTW).
How is Liverpool's thousand-year reign in the top four going?
-
Hold onto your wallet Mr Short
bbc.co.uk/football
Sunderland manager Martin O'Neill says he must strengthen his squad in the January transfer window as the Premier League relegation battle intensifies.
A 3-1 loss to Manchester United at Old Trafford leaves Sunderland in 16th place, a point above the bottom three.
"We have to be seriously looking to strengthen our side," O'Neill said.
"You only have to look at the back of the programme to see we don't have any great numerical strength, never mind anything else."
Goals from Robin van Persie, Tom Cleverley and Wayne Rooney gave Manchester United a commanding lead, with Fraizer Campbell's response doing little to disguise the Black Cats' shortcomings.
"We have got a few injuries to people, but you are going to get injuries and suspensions during the course of the season and it is up to us to cope with them," added O'Neill. "That is inevitable but we just don't have that strength in depth."
O'Neill retains the support of Sunderland owner Ellis Short and is likely to be backed to bring in a centre-back, as well as more attacking options in January.
Sunderland have won three of their last 25 Premier League matches
That may be all the more important given an injury to Steven Fletcher, who limped off at half-time having twisted his back in the warm-up at Old Trafford.
The Scotland striker could miss next weekend's game against Southampton.
"Steven [Fletcher] hurt himself in the warm-up, twisting his back," O'Neill said. "It was causing him a few problems in the 10 minutes before half-time and he couldn't continue."
When asked how long he might be without the player who has scored the vast majority of Sunderland's goals this season, O'Neill added: "I really don't know at the moment but it is a different injury to the one he has had in the last couple of weeks."
-
Good for you, it's about time you cheered up. (I never said that BTW).
How is Liverpool's thousand-year reign in the top four going?
I know you never said that about Lambert, you said it about O'Neill.
As for Liverpool, yes indeed they fucked up their fourth place, but I thought it was a shoo-in that we'd replace them?
-
No. I didn't say it about O'Neill. I knew what you were on about as you'd made it up before.
I said us, Spurs or Man City would replace them. I threw Man City's (pre-oil money) name in as I was arguing that they were a more attractive proposition to the billionaires who were apparently lining up round the block to lavish money on Liverpool, to much ridicule from some.
Anyway, fuck it, we're all friends now aren't we?
-
No. I didn't say it about O'Neill. I knew what you were on about as you'd made it up before.
Oh right, okay, sure.
I never said we were a shitty team then.
-
MON moaning about a lack of strength in depth again? Some things never change. He spent about £25m on 2 players in the summer - perhaps he would have been better off using it for 4 or 5 players? Having seen first hand what he leaves behind by the time he's ready to leave, I pity anyone who buys into the media propaganda enough to think he's some sort of saviour.
-
There's a perfect storm abrewing at Sunderland.....MON saying the squads too numerically challenged...I would be afraid , very afraid if I were a Mackem
-
Your quote is in the match-thread, mine's in your vivid imagination.
-
Your quote is in the match-thread, mine's in your vivid imagination.
Not so, but I won't carry it on with it as I don't want you yapping round me all night like a Yorkshire Terrier.
-
That's convenient.
-
That's convenient.
Don't mess with me.
I've got a gun under my bed.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
Fabulous post chris - up there with the best I've ever seen !
-
Anyway, fuck it, we're all friends now aren't we?
Are we fuck.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
Fabulous post chris - up there with the best I've ever seen !
Nail on head.
...he'll be ripe for discussion for some time yet.
At least he will be if you have anything to do with it!
-
Anyway, fuck it, we're all friends now aren't we?
Are we fuck.
Charming. I'd still buy you a pint.
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
Fabulous post chris - up there with the best I've ever seen !
Nail on head.
...he'll be ripe for discussion for some time yet.
At least he will be if you have anything to do with it!
As i'm evidently the only one keeping it going, maybe it's run it's course?
Time to lock it mods?
-
I love each and every one of you.
-
Anyway, fuck it, we're all friends now aren't we?
Are we fuck.
Charming. I'd still buy you a pint.
Go on, i'll give you the open goal.
Of what?
-
MO'N is a shitehawk of the highest order, why after 103 pages of lamenting are we still discussing him?
It's like a group of women with streaked mascara crying into their Lambrini over what "that bastard" did to them. They've met somebody else who dotes on the kids but they just can't let it go.
Fabulous post chris - up there with the best I've ever seen !
Nail on head.
...he'll be ripe for discussion for some time yet.
At least he will be if you have anything to do with it!
As i'm evidently the only one keeping it going, maybe it's run it's course?
Time to lock it mods?
No.
-
Anyway, fuck it, we're all friends now aren't we?
Are we fuck.
Charming. I'd still buy you a pint.
Go on, i'll give you the open goal.
Of what?
Whatever you're drinking you daft sod.
-
Apologies for being a dick.
Still fucking hate O'Neill, mind.
-
No need, H&V's rich tapestry.
But me too while we're at it.
-
I noticed MON's biography is over at the Library.
I'll have to get hold of it.
-
I noticed MON's biography is over at the Library.
I'll have to get hold of it.
Run out of bog roll?
-
I noticed MON's biography is over at the Library.
I'll have to get hold of it.
Run out of bog roll?
It might be quite balanced as it's a biography.
The Celtic bits might be interesting when he was forever hinting about walking out if something displeased him.
-
I noticed MON's biography is over at the Library.
I'll have to get hold of it.
Run out of bog roll?
It might be quite balanced as it's a biography.
The Celtic bits might be interesting when he was forever hinting about walking out if something displeased him.
There are 2 different ones , I bought the 1st in Blackpool in pound land about a year before he got the villa job , the 2nd one with a dirfferent author came out not long before he left villa and cost me £18 .
I don't think he was very happy about either book.
-
Going off on a tangent slightly.
Thank you MoN for bringing Guzan and Weimann to the club, they may well turn out to be your positive legacy with us.
-
Going off on a tangent slightly.
Thank you MoN for bringing Guzan and Weimann to the club, they may well turn out to be your positive legacy with us.
No question he bought some very good players here as well as a few bad ones , there were great memories as well as awful ones from his reign.
-
I thought he had very little input into the youth set up Weimann was recruited into?
But yes - Guzan was absolutely his signing.
-
I thought he had very little input into the youth set up Weimann was recruited into?
But yes - Guzan was absolutely his signing.
Not taking anything away from MON as he still had to sign him, but didn't Big Brad recommend him?
-
A Liverpool fan at work still thinks the sun shines out of his arse. Part I of V commenced this dinner-time and will be concluded on Friday.
-
I did the book review on the second biography (by Simon Moss?) for H+V. Its bloody awful.
-
I thought he had very little input into the youth set up Weimann was recruited into?
But yes - Guzan was absolutely his signing.
No idea on his involvement but I'd have thought he'd have had some requirements on the type of players he wanted the youth system to bring through, especially given the level of control he had over the 1st team, it would be strange if he didn't have a passing interest in the players we were looking to place in the academy.
The point of the post was really that I can think of 2 positives that may turn out hugely in his favour over the next few years (I missed lichaj as well who I think is a solid squad player for us).
-
I thought he had very little input into the youth set up Weimann was recruited into?
But yes - Guzan was absolutely his signing.
No idea on his involvement but I'd have thought he'd have had some requirements on the type of players he wanted the youth system to bring through, especially given the level of control he had over the 1st team, it would be strange if he didn't have a passing interest in the players we were looking to place in the academy.
The point of the post was really that I can think of 2 positives that may turn out hugely in his favour over the next few years (I missed lichaj as well who I think is a solid squad player for us).
If that's the criteria, then I think we should also include Gabby as he gave him his chance and had a big hand in his development as a player.
-
I thought he had very little input into the youth set up Weimann was recruited into?
But yes - Guzan was absolutely his signing.
No idea on his involvement but I'd have thought he'd have had some requirements on the type of players he wanted the youth system to bring through, especially given the level of control he had over the 1st team, it would be strange if he didn't have a passing interest in the players we were looking to place in the academy.
The point of the post was really that I can think of 2 positives that may turn out hugely in his favour over the next few years (I missed lichaj as well who I think is a solid squad player for us).
If that's the criteria, then I think we should also include Gabby as he gave him his chance and had a big hand in his development as a player.
I'd have thought that was a given. Gabby pretty much has his career at this level because of MON, I doubt there is a manager in the world who could've made better use of him at the time.
Mainly I feel I personally have been very harsh towards MON in the last year and, after a discussion with my norwegian colleagues about the squad he left behind I decided that only gabby, guzan and weimann can really be credited to him (I added lichaj afterwards). Thankfully 2 of those are looking like great prospects currently.
-
Lambert signed Guzan ;D
-
Lambert signed Guzan ;D
And I'm glad he did. It was another fuckup by TSM to decide that Guzan always going to be second best so he decided to leave. Luckily Lambert came in when he did.
-
Even more the fuck up as the defence looked more comfortable with Guzan behind them shouting instructions and coming for catches.
-
I doubt if O'Neill knew a great deal about the clubs they played for let alone the players themselves when Guzan and Lichaj signed for us. It's also hard to imagine that he had much to do with the acquisition of a 16 year old Austrian.
In Guzan's case, all we saw under O'Neill was a keeper who was good at some things but distinctly dodgy at others, and that did not change much. In the few games under McLeish and now with Lambert he has looked an accomplished and improving keeper.
-
I read yesterday he said ' I need to buy players in January'
Typical of pube head , anyway pubey , what about warnock or Hutton
-
Just had a quick look at Readytogo, their message board as MON once again started March by failing to win a league game.
Two main topics of anguish....
The inflexibility of their 4-4-2 and 4 home wins in 14 league. They don't like Danny Graham much either, could be their Heskey.
Sunderland are not out of this by a long stretch, they'll be right in danger if they lose to QPR next week.
-
Villa to beat Reading and Sunderland and QPR to draw. Nice.
-
Danny Graham is well known for being a Newcastle fan so he was always going to be disliked until he started scoring.
It's an interesting point about how MON's teams don't pick up results post March. It wasn't something that I had previously factored in. Let's hope it continues.
-
He'll survive i reckon but they've realised well before us that he's not what he's cracked up to be. Destined never to get the big job he craved now.
-
A bit early to be writing-off Graham. He looked a smart poacher at Swansea. Kind of reminds me of Tommy Johnson in his style.
Sunderland flatter to deceive. O'Neill hasn't got any consistency out of them since his honeymoon period there. Lose to QPR next week and they'll be getting antsy. Agreed that a draw would be the best result though...don't want QPR coming to Villa Park off the back of two wins in a row.
-
I think Sunderland will be okay but it does amuse me to see MON still playing Gardner at right back.
-
I think Sunderland will be okay but it does amuse me to see MON still playing Gardner at right back.
I'd be happy for Gardner to be playing right back here to be honest! ;)
I'd be ecstatic to have him in CM.
And he's pretty average, which says it all.
-
I think Sunderland will be okay but it does amuse me to see MON still playing Gardner at right back.
I'd be happy for Gardner to be playing right back here to be honest! ;)
I'd be ecstatic to have him in CM.
And he's pretty average, which says it all.
I liked him when he was here, and he would walk into our CM at the moment and probably be our best RB, which isn't saying much. At least he scores a few from midfield which is more than we can say for the rest of them. And that's what the non-free scoring Sunderland are missing out on while he's stuck at RB. A bit like we missed out on Mellberg's excellent CB performances and partnership with Laursen while he was stuck out there, and like we missed out on Cuellar being nowhere near the first team while he was stuck there.
-
Good penalty taker is Gardner.
-
I hope they win on Sat. Don't want QPR getting any momentum.
-
I hope they win on Sat. Don't want QPR getting any momentum.
Strongly fancy qpr to turn sunderland over here, agree Gardner would walk into our current team.
-
As ever, F365 is one of the few sources of football media who are actually aware of reality rather than reputation:
"Over the course of the season we might lack a lot of things - we lack real true ability in the team. We need an improvement in the ability in the squad. I think that's obvious" - Martin O'Neill, ahead of Sunday's clash with Norwich.
It's obvious to anybody with eyes that Sunderland lack 'real true ability'. It was certainly obvious against Norwich when they huffed, puffed and utterly failed to break down a Norwich side reduced to ten men after half an hour. They were gifted a controversial red card, gifted a penalty for a non-deliberate handball and gifted a let-off when Norwich should have had their own penalty. And yet they still conspired to draw 1-1 without ever carving open the Canaries.
Alternatively, it's obvious they lack something from a Premier League table that shows they have scored just 17 goals in 15 Premier League games at the Stadium of Light. And it's obvious from statistics that show they are in the bottom five teams in the division for shots per game, average possession and average pass completion.
Whether you choose to trust your own eyes, a series of numbers or the words of the manager himself, you have to conclude that they are rotten. What none of those things tell you is the money that has been spent to make them this rotten. There was talk on Sky Sports before the game that the manager has 'only' been allowed to spend money on four players. What they didn't say was that those four players have - according to local newspaper The Northern Echo - cost £30m in transfer fees alone.
Those four players - Steven Fletcher, Adam Johnson, Alfred N'Diaye and Danny Graham - have been bought by the club in the last two transfer windows. Only eight clubs (the biggest six clubs in the country plus QPR and Southampton) have spent more than Sunderland in the last two transfer windows and yet only five clubs sit below them in the Premier League table.
On Sunday they played Norwich, who spent just £9m in the last two transfer windows after finishing last season two points ahead of the Black Cats. They now sit three points ahead. Those are not great maths for any Sunderland fan who has just sat through their seventh successive game without a victory in which right-back Craig Gardner looked their most dangerous player.
You have to feel for Sunderland fans. Can any set of fans in the country currently be at a lower ebb? QPR fans have long since grown accustomed to being a laughing stock, Reading fans never expected to survive, Wigan fans have been here too many times to worry and Villa fans are seeing a buoyant and bouncing young side. Sunderland fans are watching dire football from a team with an average age of 27 and there's little sign that things are going to get any better. They will probably scrape together enough points to survive but it will be hollow success.
If it's a terrible team to support, imagine being chairman Ellis Short. Last summer he said Sunderland were "not happy with 13th - not happy at all". Right now, 13th for Sunderland would require a dramatic improvement in their performances. And the manager is still saying they need an "improvement in the ability in the squad" to prevent a repeat next season.
-
Aren't they one of the ones he's sued?
-
They are indeed.
-
QPR have Sunderland and then Wigan so they're not out of it yet.
-
Heard an interview with MON on the radio earlier in which he was complaining that the squad was too small. Even if he had a squad of 50, he'd still use the same 11 players until they were exhausted or injured so that argument doesn't stack up really. It was also pointed out after the interview that he has had a lot of money to spend at Sunderland, so it's his own fault if the squad is too small.
-
Noticed on their fans forum that a huge 94% want mon to go either now or in may, popularity waning to say the least and making Steve Bruce look good.
-
More worrying for them, they are going to have to rely on players like Adam Johnson, John O'Shea, Wes Brown and Titus Bramble to find something extra to stave off relegation.
They have 8 defenders average age 30+ in addition to loanee Danny Rose. From what I saw yesterday only Craig Gardner seemed to have any real taste for the fight in him.
-
2 points in March so far. They don't know how lucky they are.
-
The thing I don't get about MON is him signing Danny Graham? I can see where his other signings fit in but Graham leaves me perplexed. At Villa he had a decent mixture of pace, power, height and strength in Carew and Gabby, yet he's decided he wants 2 big men up front, neither of whom are that quick. I remember us playing Heskey and Carew together a few times and it was virtually hide behind the sofa stuff. Admittedly Graham is a bit more agile and pacier than most bigger guys but anyone can see it's far too samey up front for them. It's almost as if he just panicked and thought "I need a striker, who is a available?" without any thought for exactly the type of player he needed to fit into the team. His situation reminds of when SGT came back here a 2nd time. I think the game has swallowed him up and is moving forwards at a faster rate than he can maintain. He needs to get out quick before his reputation is damaged further.
-
He will quit this summer and spend the rest of his life as a pundit with everybody fawning over him.
Hi reputation far exceeds his actual achievements as a coach.
-
We were told ad nauseum that O'Neill was a 'motivator' yet recently he said that his Sunderand squad 'has little real true ability.'
I bet his players were revved up after hearing that.
-
Never bought the 'motivator' bit. In his time at Villa the only player I saw him stir out of a slumber was Nicky Shorey at Fulham.
-
Yes, I would love to hear myself described by my boss as having 'little true ability'. That would really make me walk through fire for him.
-
I'm not too sure that there's all that much of a reputation to protect any more. Anybody can easily look at the facts and figures of his tenure at the SOL, and to have avoided news of his aftermath at our place would've involved living down a very deep hole for quite a while now. Unless the owner of a club somewhere believes that the football played by leicester in the nineties is the way forward, I don't envisage him taking charge of a top-flight side in this country after this season. Where could he go? Scotland, maybe, a couple of years at one of the clubs currently filling in for Rangers? Lower divisions? Doubt that, unless the venkys fancy blowing their entire fortune. Off to a TV sofa, where he can keep 'appy 'arry company, feels most likely.
Personally, I'd like to see Sunderland stay up; good crowds, long, proud and occasionally troubled history, probably the one of ninety-one I 'ate the least.
-
One of the things that I remember most from MON's tenure at VP was that there were many, many times where we won or drew games when we didn't deserve it. We all know that he's limited tactically & self opinionated but above all he's lucky. I just hope his luck runs out sometime soon.
-
He will quit this summer and spend the rest of his life as a pundit with everybody fawning over him.
Hi reputation far exceeds his actual achievements as a coach.
Yes I agree, this will be his last managerial job and he is attractive to the media as a pundit - better than lee Dixon and southgate .
-
It is OK spending that sort of money on the likes of Fletcher and Johnson if you think they are the final pieces of the jigsaw, but it seemed pretty obvious that Sunderland needed to spread that cash a bit thinner to strengthen more positions.
-
Sunderland fans are not impressed, again! (http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=767536)
-
More moaning (http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=767235)
-
He won't walk out now because if he does there's absolutely no excuse for the timing and even Oliver Holt couldn't defend it. Whatever happens he'll leave at the end of the season amidst a plethora of "Unfulfilled promise" headlines.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
-
I don't understand Martin.
He's moaning that he's not bought many players in, and that the players are largely still the ones he inherited from Steve Bruce.
If that is the case, then why, during the summer, did he spent £25 million on just *two* players if he needed more bodies? And, what's more, not only did he just buy two players, surprise, surprise, they were predictable, unimaginative, UK based signings, Johnson and Fletcher.
Then in January, he goes out and buys Danny Graham, which is a typical MON striker signing - already in the UK, unspectacular to say the least, and everyone knows he wants a move, so no need to do any hard work to idenfity the right player, just go for the obvious one right under your nose.
He's moaning and whining about his lack of transfer activity, but I see his is still totally unable, or unwilling, to take a look at his own buying policy, and to consider that that might be part of - or possibly the entirety of - the problem.
-
We were told ad nauseum that O'Neill was a 'motivator' yet recently he said that his Sunderand squad 'has little real true ability.'
I bet his players were revved up after hearing that.
How can he do anything with his useless squad how can their current state be his fault? Sunderland are lucky that he has, using his genius, managed to get them to 30 points from only 30 games!
-
Brand O'Neill must stay intact no matter what.
-
If he does leave in the summer I wonder how much compensation he's going to take them for or if he'll get litigous again.
-
I wonder if he now looks back on shitting on us, and wishes he hadn't done it.
If he gets the bullet or walks from Sunderland, surely that's it for his career. He'd struggle to get a sideways move, even.
-
Someone somewhere would still take a punt on him, look at Sven & McLeish.
-
From the Sunderland forum made me laugh...
"I wouldn't trust him with a tenner at the minute. I'd tell him to go and get a curry and he'd come back with some out of date beetroot."
-
It's a shame it's Sunderland he's at as I have a lot of time for their supporters, but I am enjoying the MON myth getting destroyed. Especially as what people are pointing out is pretty much exactly what we were saying about him. Just goes to show that we weren't being petty etc as some people tried to claim at the time.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
Yes I will if Billy McNeill was dead!
-
There are plenty of lesser managers who get jobs so if he leaves Sunderland he will get plenty of offers. But for someone very intelligent and tactical regarding his own managerial career it seemed obvious to me that leaving Villa would be a sideways move at best. He won't even get the Chelsea job, and that becomes available three times a year.
-
There are plenty of lesser managers who get jobs so if he leaves Sunderland he will get plenty of offers. But for someone very intelligent and tactical regarding his own managerial career it seemed obvious to me that leaving Villa would be a sideways move at best. He won't even get the Chelsea job, and that becomes available three times a year.
I really wouldn't be surprised to see him lined up for the Ireland job if / when he leaves Sunderland. Either that or he'll just take a job in the media. He seems to have lost the enthusiasm which was a big part of his managerial style.
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there, walking back to the car, and many of them couldn't wait for him to take over from sralix, positively gloating about how they were going to pinch him from us, as he'd never turn them down. We can but hope it's never too late!!!
-
I really wouldn't be surprised to see him lined up for the Ireland job
Chauffeur?
-
O'Neill would make a great coach for the Irish team. Just take his teeth out and replace them with seats............
-
Its hard to motivate yourself when you’re the former manager of Aston Villa.
Bar two or three clubs, it doesn’t get any bigger or classier than this.
-
Oooops wrong thread.
-
I really wouldn't be surprised to see him lined up for the Ireland job
Chauffeur?
Overpaid waster in the villa reserves?
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again
Yes because that would really happen again if O'Neill came back, without the bottomless pit of money he was given previously.How's he getting on at Sunderland?
-
Badly, but above us.
-
From the Sunderland forum made me laugh...
"I wouldn't trust him with a tenner at the minute. I'd tell him to go and get a curry and he'd come back with some out of date beetroot."
Quality.
-
Its hard to motivate yourself when you’re the former manager of Aston Villa.
Bar two or three clubs, it doesn’t get any bigger or classier than this.
Do well at Villa, glory awaits.
Do badly at Villa, Middlesbrough awaits.
-
Badly, but above us.
Not for long, looking at current form and upcoming fixtures.
-
I wish MON was still here. I'd love to see Fletcher and Graham up front instead of Benteke and Weimann. And for only 4 times the cost of our strikers. The man is a genius.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
Under the restraints of the regime as they are now, you can forget getting any of that with O'Neill in charge.
-
I wish MON was still here. I'd love to see Fletcher and Graham up front instead of Benteke and Weimann. And for only 4 times the cost of our strikers. The man is a genius.
Indeed it makes me shudder to think that if he was still in charge, Weimann would be elsewhere now after we'd released him for not being rubbish and British.
-
Some mug would give him another chance. I wouldn't even be surprised to see the idiots who run Cardiff sack Malky Mackay after getting them promoted and give O'Neill £50m to spend. He could probably get three of his journeymen on board for that.
-
.... He seems to have lost the enthusiasm which was a big part of his managerial style.
He seems to have lost his mystique, which was an even bigger part.
I doubt his ego would allow him to take a lower league job. It's hard to see anyone in the top flight coming in for him, even the Baggies have certain standards.
No doubt he'll take a break from football before ensuring that the next move is the right one, in customary O'Leary/McLeish style. But that will probably be it as far as management goes.
-
He's too good for football.
But not, seemingly, good enough for Sunderland.
-
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
Lovejoy you make it sound like we got to Wembley twice every season under him whereas i only recall it happening in one season and the other seasons not even bothering with the league cup maybe i am mistaken. Maybe if we do get back into the Europa League in the future we could try and get o'neil back just so we can take it seriously and not surrender it as under o'neil we never put up a white flag against Hamburg and Moscow did we?
-
Welcome back Stuart.
You've been missed on the Benteke thread ;)
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
Yep, and it only cost about £150m, and i seem to remember the occasional fuck up to lower league oppositions in the cup under MON, too.
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there, walking back to the car, and many of them couldn't wait for him to take over from sralix, positively gloating about how they were going to pinch him from us, as he'd never turn them down. We can but hope it's never too late!!!
It was hardly a hammering. A hard-fought one-nil win.
Fair dos though, he managed a Villa team to beat Yanited which is more than practically all of the last half a dozen or so did.
I think he had a core of young players at Villa and more that he was able to buy at a fair old premium who he set to play in his image and it worked well to a degree but was always going to have its limitations. He hasn't been able to replicate that at Sunderland despite positive early signs when taking over. It looks now as if it was merely the bounce of a new manager and his ways and time out of the game have combined rather badly to reflect a turgid side at the moment. I think SoccerHQ mentioned it, but when things are dull and insipid, the Stadium of Light is even a more depressing place to be than Villa Park. He'll have had his fair experience of both by the end of the season so whether jump or get pushed, I'd be surprised to still see him there next season.
Also, when I saw our second-half at home to Norwich this season, us down to ten men, I didn't think it would be eclipsed for awfulness but with the situation reversed and Sunderland having the extra man I think they managed to do so yesterday.
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there, walking back to the car, and many of them couldn't wait for him to take over from sralix, positively gloating about how they were going to pinch him from us, as he'd never turn them down. We can but hope it's never too late!!!
It was hardly a hammering. A hard-fought one-nil win.
Fair dos though, he managed a Villa team to beat Yanited which is more than practically all of the last half a dozen or so did.
I think he had a core of young players at Villa and more that he was able to buy at a fair old premium who he set to play in his image and it worked well to a degree but was always going to have its limitations. He hasn't been able to replicate that at Sunderland despite positive early signs when taking over. It looks now as if it was merely the bounce of a new manager and his ways and time out of the game have combined rather badly to reflect a turgid side at the moment. I think SoccerHQ mentioned it, but when things are dull and insipid, the Stadium of Light is even a more depressing place to be than Villa Park. He'll have had his fair experience of both by the end of the season so whether jump or get pushed, I'd be surprised to still see him there next season.
Also, when I saw our second-half at home to Norwich this season, us down to ten men, I didn't think it would be eclipsed for awfulness but with the situation reversed and Sunderland having the extra man I think they managed to do so yesterday.
Spot on there, Eamonn.
-
One of the things that I remember most from MON's tenure at VP was that there were many, many times where we won or drew games when we didn't deserve it. We all know that he's limited tactically & self opinionated but above all he's lucky. I just hope his luck runs out sometime soon.
I sort of get what you mean.
In the first season or two, it was perhaps asking for too much for us to control and boss games and see out victories against weaker sides with some kind of comfort.
The feeling was that the longer he was in the job and with a better calibre of player on the books, this would happen in time. But we were still holding on for dear life in his fourth year, hacking the ball away like some desperate FA Cup minnow in the last few minutes. I'm not sure that would have changed had he been 5/6 years in the job.
That said, we played with a tenacity and resolution which has often been lacking since. For an outdated manager (and his approach definitely was more 80's) he did well to oversee 16+ league victories for 3 seasons on the bounce. There was a fair degree of excitement in the way we played at times too (even if we did lack variation). That illustrates to me that he still had something about him. And I wouldn't put it purely down to luck. The money helped, sure. But many clubs have spent large sums at different times and got nowhere near that.
I don't delight in his current misfortune . His time with us was largely go-ahead and positive, though his leaving definitely soured that. Managers (like players) have a shelf life though. I think back to BFR's time at Coventry and -as much as most of us didn't want him potted in 1994- I'd have to concede Herbert probably got that one right.
-
I wish MON was still here. I'd love to see Fletcher and Graham up front instead of Benteke and Weimann. And for only 4 times the cost of our strikers. The man is a genius.
Indeed it makes me shudder to think that if he was still in charge, Weimann would be elsewhere now after we'd released him for not being rubbish and British.
dont talk shit . Weimann would still be here with MON.
as right back ;)
-
Weimann would have been sold to Bolton and we'd have signed Zamora.
-
One of the things that I remember most from MON's tenure at VP was that there were many, many times where we won or drew games when we didn't deserve it. We all know that he's limited tactically & self opinionated but above all he's lucky. I just hope his luck runs out sometime soon.
I sort of get what you mean.
In the first season or two, it was perhaps asking for too much for us to control and boss games and see out victories against weaker sides with some kind of comfort.
The feeling was that the longer he was in the job and with a better calibre of player on the books, this would happen in time. But we were still holding on for dear life in his fourth year, hacking the ball away like some desperate FA Cup minnow in the last few minutes. I'm not sure that would have changed had he been 5/6 years in the job.
That said, we played with a tenacity and resolution which has often been lacking since. For an outdated manager (and his approach definitely was more 80's) he did well to oversee 16+ league victories for 3 seasons on the bounce. There was a fair degree of excitement in the way we played at times too (even if we did lack variation). That illustrates to me that he still had something about him. And I wouldn't put it purely down to luck. The money helped, sure. But many clubs have spent large sums at different times and got nowhere near that.
I don't delight in his current misfortune . His time with us was largely go-ahead and positive, though his leaving definitely soured that. Managers (like players) have a shelf life though. I think back to BFR's time at Coventry and -as much as most of us didn't want him potted in 1994- I'd have to concede Herbert probably got that one right.
There was a fair degree of excitement in the way we played, but the way we played at home versus away were like two totally different teams.
Away from home, with teams attacking us, we had the shed loads of pace needed to counter attack well, and that's why our away results were so decent. Playing a counter attacking game away from home is nothing to be ashamed of, and is decent to watch. How many years have Man United won the league with that being a big, big part of their success?
But then take a look at the home matches, where teams would often not come and attack us, and we'd have to find a way through. We'd be absolutely hopeless, by and large. Endlessly passing the ball out wide and whipping it in and hoping for something that way is not really much better than just lumping the ball long and hoping for the best - you did it so often that, ultimately, it becomes a numbers game, "something is likely to come from one of these", just like hitting it long is.
In fact, if you look at the final league tables under MON, they tell a story.
In 2008-9, away from home - W10 D2 L7 scored 27 goals, but at home - W7 D9 L3 - scored 27 goals
In 2009-10, away from home - W9 D5 L5 scored 23 goals, but at home - W8 D8 L8 - scored 29 goals]
Now, in both those seasons, we had two home games where we scored 5 goals. If I remember correctly, both those years, one of the teams was Bolton, who for some reason always used to come and play a high defensive line, which was just made for teams with pace up front like us to exploit.
So, if you ignore those two home games, that leaves across 17 home games, 17 goals one year and 19 the next, ie about a goal a game.
Then, look at the teams around us those seasons, and while our away form stands out as excellent, our home form sticks out like a sore thumb compared to our competitors.
In 2009-10, we won 8 home games. Man City, who finished one place above us, won 12, and Liverpool directly below, won 13. We won 8 home games, which is only one more than Burnley, who got relegated that year. In 2008-9, we won the same number of home games as Albion, who actually got relegated that year.
I know that at the time, a few of us would point out the crappy, shapeless football at home (which looks a lot like Sunderland this year) and got a hard time for it. That's fair enough, it is a matter of subjectivity, I thought the football was shite, but I am sure a lot of people thought it was ace, or that all that mattered were the results (although even those were nothing special).
If you look back at it now, though, with the benefit of hindsight, the stats do seem to stand out somewhat.
He never showed the slightest inclination to change the way we approached home games. How many times did we see the same starting XI, tired as fuck by March? Even his substitutions rarely changed - always at roughly 70-75 minutes, and pretty much always involving Sidwell or Heskey, or some random change at right back.
Towards the end, his methods were getting found out. They were somewhat old school when he started with us, by the time he left, they were more so. Sunderland this season seem to be doing exactly the same thing he did with us.
The problem is, there isn't 100+ million pounds to buy sufficient players to eventually get a decent enough group of them to win matches, and furthermore, his ways are even more outdated, but he's still doing exactly the same thing. I just took a look at Soccerbase's Sunderland page, and he's even still doing the 75th minute substitution thing.
I never thought he did enough to get sacked with us - finishing sixth is not going to get a Villa manager the bullet. However, I did think that every year he stayed, the marginal improvement we'd gain by throwing more money at him to recruit players with that same lazy, can't be arsed to scout, predictable approach of his, would become less and less.
In some ways, I actually think one of the most impressive things he did for us was getting us a mid table finish in 2006-7, with next to no time to buy in the summer, and just the players he had been left with. That front three he improvised with JPA and Gabby and Luke Moore on either side wasn't too shabby.
His second season was very good, but there was never really the idea in year three and four that things were going to continue to improve. Sure, we had Villadawg on here all the time telling us a 2 point improvement over a season meant we'd be intergalactic super champions soon enough, but the football got no better, nothing changed, it was the same way of playing week in, week out, and the only approach he ever knew to signing decent players was to throw huge sums of cash around.
Look at Sunderland now, they're truly horrendous to watch. He's thrown a decent sum of money at it and spent £30m on Adam Johnson, Steven Fletcher and Danny Graham. That is a spectacularly bad use of money by anyone's standards, but this week he's moaning again about not having had the chance to bring enough players in?
The best he'll ever do at Sunderland - who have lower aspirations than us, and are operating in a league post Man City, thus making it tougher - is a mid table finish. He's never going to have the ingenuity or desire to change the way he does things to eek out better things, he's just going to throw more money at the same old approach.
I know our aspirations are also lower than they used to be, but I for one would much prefer Lambert's approach of trying to spend the money wisely and bring in players on the up, of scouting them abroad, of appreciating that money actually has a value, and that it isn't an endless pool he can dip into when he needs to, than MON's ongoing attachment to methods which might have served him well 5 or 15 years ago, but don't cut it now.
He did some good things for us, he spent a lot of money, some well, some appallingly badly. The football was nice away from home, but dross at home.
Moan all you like about not going to Wembley any more or not finishing sixth, but football has moved on now. Martin hasn't moved anywhere though, and that's what Sunderland fans are starting to realise
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
Must be marvellous to be able to completely seperate the two scenarios like that.
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there.........
It was hardly a hammering. A hard-fought one-nil win.
By the time I ever get to tell my grandkids, it'll have been the most one-sided game ever played, and that they did well to get nil!!!
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there.........
It was hardly a hammering. A hard-fought one-nil win.
By the time I ever get to tell my grandkids, it'll have been the most one-sided game ever played, and that they did well to get nil!!!
If my memory serves me well, I think we were actually better the year before when we lost 3-2.
-
I really don't care about MON any more, he's irrelevant. He'll be out of a job in the summer one way or the other, never to return.
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there.........
It was hardly a hammering. A hard-fought one-nil win.
By the time I ever get to tell my grandkids, it'll have been the most one-sided game ever played, and that they did well to get nil!!!
Ha..more power to your elbow my friend.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
Must be marvellous to be able to completely seperate the two scenarios like that.
I'm sorry I do not understand.
-
He has done some job on Johnson, turning him from a potential England starter to someone that can barely cross the road. For all the "developing talent" talents he has, he seems to more recently be making above average players look distinctly average. If Sunderland go down, thats going to be some nasty wage bill for the next guy to sort out....reminds me of somewhere else.
In his defence (not Bramble), he does get bums on seats. I dont know quite why at the moment
-
One of the things that I remember most from MON's tenure at VP was that there were many, many times where we won or drew games when we didn't deserve it. We all know that he's limited tactically & self opinionated but above all he's lucky. I just hope his luck runs out sometime soon.
I sort of get what you mean.
In the first season or two, it was perhaps asking for too much for us to control and boss games and see out victories against weaker sides with some kind of comfort.
The feeling was that the longer he was in the job and with a better calibre of player on the books, this would happen in time. But we were still holding on for dear life in his fourth year, hacking the ball away like some desperate FA Cup minnow in the last few minutes. I'm not sure that would have changed had he been 5/6 years in the job.
That said, we played with a tenacity and resolution which has often been lacking since. For an outdated manager (and his approach definitely was more 80's) he did well to oversee 16+ league victories for 3 seasons on the bounce. There was a fair degree of excitement in the way we played at times too (even if we did lack variation). That illustrates to me that he still had something about him. And I wouldn't put it purely down to luck. The money helped, sure. But many clubs have spent large sums at different times and got nowhere near that.
I don't delight in his current misfortune . His time with us was largely go-ahead and positive, though his leaving definitely soured that. Managers (like players) have a shelf life though. I think back to BFR's time at Coventry and -as much as most of us didn't want him potted in 1994- I'd have to concede Herbert probably got that one right.
I think Gerard Houllier was pretty much spot on when trying to explain why MON has been a pretty successful manager. It was along the lines of "he has his beliefs and sticks to them". The players knew what he expected of them, they knew what he wanted them to do. The combination of decent players and a comprehensible (if out-dated) philosophy may have been good enough to achieve top six finished in 2008-10. Three years later when a lot of the PL clubs have moved on to more progressive ideas the combination of not-so-decent players and out-dated tactics is not so potent anymore.
-
I remember coming away from old trafford after we'd hammered them there.........
It was hardly a hammering. A hard-fought one-nil win.
By the time I ever get to tell my grandkids, it'll have been the most one-sided game ever played, and that they did well to get nil!!!
I hope that by the time I have grand kids stories of beating ManU will not be worthy of mention, it will be considered the norm.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
Must be marvellous to be able to completely seperate the two scenarios like that.
I'm sorry I do not understand.
This discussion has been had a million and one times on this site before (and a lot more eloquently), but I suppose one more round isn't going to do any harm.
The "I'd take three sixth place finishes now" argument has a few flaws in it's thinking. One of the main ones is that the current plight has happened in a vacuum. Some see the sixth place finishes as an overachievement, which is something I will never accept. He underachieved for the outlay of the time, and the lack of additional prize money from regular CL competition etc. is what has resulted in the brakes being put on over the last few years. Note that I am not absolving the board of complete blame on this front, but the only outcome I can see that would have happened had more control been exerted by them earlier into his reign (particularly when his popularity, and presumably ego, were at it's highest would have been him to throw a strop and either walk or force them to fork out the what he was looking for).
You say you'd have him back, but would you really expect him to do anything different (even if we were to assume that the premiership is the same place now as it was then)? 3, 4 years down the line we'd find ourselves in the same position. He doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would readily admit to making mistakes, much less accept lessons could be learned from them. His current problems at Sunderland would seem to bear that one out for me.
There were certainly some highlights of his tenure, of that there is no denying (but I personally wouldn't put the Chelsea game at Wembley in that bracket), but overall his time at Villa was a failure, and one we're still paying for.
-
In his defence (not Bramble), he does get bums on seats. I dont know quite why at the moment
A combination of very loyal Sunderland supporters, very cheap tickets and the ever increasing desire to turn up and boo him.
-
The last few seasons have been torrid. But I will never forget the way he so gladly pissed away the opportunity of a generation to bring success to VP. It was painful seeing the signings and wages go up in line with his reputation when the reality was he was sowing the seeds of future suffering. I saw it soon in so had to endure the charlatan for longer than most. Nasty with it too. Sunderland deserve all that comes as it wasn't like they weren't warned. They chose to believe the lies.
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
yes agreed
but i still dont think it imposible for us to finish 7th, which is the new 6th because of Man City in the next say 2-3 years
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
yes agreed
but i still dont think it imposible for us to finish 7th, which is the new 6th because of Man City in the next say 2-3 years
Not with the type of players we sign these days though. I think Lerner is happy just to see us survive every season. A bit like Wigan I suppose.
-
Didn't MONs best run for us coincide with Sidwell being in the team?
-
Ginger Messi with Gabby up front on his own. World beaters. Till we went to Moscow.
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
yes agreed
but i still dont think it imposible for us to finish 7th, which is the new 6th because of Man City in the next say 2-3 years
Not with the type of players we sign these days though. I think Lerner is happy just to see us survive every season. A bit like Wigan I suppose.
disagree,
with the likes of Benteke, Wieman, Westwood, Guzan plus one or two others i think we could well challenge for a top 7/8 finish
but obviously my optimistic prediction is based on a quite different assement of Lamberts capabillities compared to yours
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
yes agreed
but i still dont think it imposible for us to finish 7th, which is the new 6th because of Man City in the next say 2-3 years
Not with the type of players we sign these days though. I think Lerner is happy just to see us survive every season. A bit like Wigan I suppose.
Like Benteke for instance?
-
He offloaded three young players currently playing in Premiership defences (Cahill, Gardner and Ridgewell) and brought in a number of highly-paid defenders on long contracts. I'm not saying the aforemeontioned three would have been our salvation, but we needed seasoned defenders this season and have suffered from not having them.
Add to this all the other hindsighted issues with MON and I wish him nothing but an ignomious fall from his media pedestal.
-
I'd have killed for Gardner, Cahill and even Ridgewell at times this season.
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
yes agreed
but i still dont think it imposible for us to finish 7th, which is the new 6th because of Man City in the next say 2-3 years
Not with the type of players we sign these days though. I think Lerner is happy just to see us survive every season. A bit like Wigan I suppose.
disagree,
with the likes of Benteke, Wieman, Westwood, Guzan plus one or two others i think we could well challenge for a top 7/8 finish
but obviously my optimistic prediction is based on a quite different assement of Lamberts capabillities compared to yours
Benteke is a good signing. The rest, well, the league table tells the tale.
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
yes agreed
but i still dont think it imposible for us to finish 7th, which is the new 6th because of Man City in the next say 2-3 years
Not with the type of players we sign these days though. I think Lerner is happy just to see us survive every season. A bit like Wigan I suppose.
Like Benteke for instance?
Or Bennett?
-
I'd have killed for Gardner, Cahill and even Ridgewell at times this season.
No one batted an eyelid when Gardner and Ridgewell left. Cahill, well that's a different matter.
-
I'd have killed for Gardner, Cahill and even Ridgewell at times this season.
No one batted an eyelid when Gardner and Ridgewell left. Cahill, well that's a different matter.
That shows how far we've fell really.
-
I'd have killed for Gardner, Cahill and even Ridgewell at times this season.
No one batted an eyelid when Gardner and Ridgewell left. Cahill, well that's a different matter.
That shows how far we've fell really.
Yep.
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
You'd expect that for the vast amount of money spent wouldn't you? MON spent a lot more than 25m a season.
-
I wonder if he now looks back on shitting on us, and wishes he hadn't done it.
If he gets the bullet or walks from Sunderland, surely that's it for his career. He'd struggle to get a sideways move, even.
I think Damon called it right. He'll just retire like Clough did and pop up on tv from time to time.
-
the top of the table is very different now than when MON was with us
there was a set in stone top 4 of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal then,
now we have Man City's millions to deal with, Totenham are a real force now, but were flirting with relegation at times back then,
so if you accept that the top 4 would reamain the same, you were competing against Everton, Spurs,Newcastle or a smaller club having a great season to finish 5th or 6th,
Man City were no where near anything at the time,
so with the many millions spent the 3 x 6th spots i dont think were anything that special
Better than the shit served up this season though!
You'd expect that for the vast amount of money spent wouldn't you? MON spent a lot more than 25m a season.
I agree. It's the relatively low wages we pay these days that's the reason we're looking to the lower leagues.
-
I think the difference this summer is that Dunne will certainly be off and hopefully Ireland, Hutton, Bent and maybe Given (just think he'll be near on impossible to shift unless he takes a big pay cut somewhere else) will all be off and that's a huge amount of wages to shift in one go as most of those are the highest earners at the club so say 200k a month.
And unlike previous seasons the big earners we will let go won't actually be our best players. That and the new Sky deal means I reckon we'll have a bit more scope in the wages department.
I don't buy this stuff we have a wage cap or whatever as even in our austerity mode we were still signing players like Given and Hutton on very decent wages.
-
I reckon that if Lambert had the exact same conditions to work under as MON did he'd achieve more than MON managed.
-
I don't think MON would have unearthed Benteke, Westwood or Lowton.
-
O'Neill is incapable of building a dynasty. The players he brings in are either good enough at that moment or they never are, and you struggle to pick out a player he's improved. That's why he'll never land a job bigger than the one he had here, because his solution is to splurge a load of money on the assumption of getting it right first time. He nearly did it here, but I suppose that would have just delayed the situation that came after by a season or two.
-
He improved Ashley Young, James Milner and Gareth Barry in my opinion.
-
Maybe Agbonlahor too. But your point about not building a dynasty is fair. There isn't much long term about his buy proven attitude.
-
but none of them were bad players to start with.
-
He improved Ashley Young, James Milner and Gareth Barry in my opinion.
Here we get into the sticky realms of how much O'Neill can be credited with in their career development. I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on all three, just for recognising they could be effective in different positions (in the case of Barry and Milner) and for snapping up a clearly talented player (in the case of Young). But the cynic in me would suggest the only thing he actually had a hand in improving was their resale value.
-
I reckon that if Lambert had the exact same conditions to work under as MON did he'd achieve more than MON managed.
I do wonder where we would be now if at the time of O'Neill's appointment we'd have got someone more similar to Lambert in terms of football philosophy and player evaluation.
-
I reckon that if Lambert had the exact same conditions to work under as MON did he'd achieve more than MON managed.
I do wonder where we would be now if at the time of O'Neill's appointment we'd have got someone more similar to Lambert in terms of football philosophy and player evaluation.
I think we'd be in a better position if Houllier had been able to stay on - He'd have got it right.
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
So that was one season and we performed like dead fish in a tumble dryer in both matches. The other seasons under him we basically lost in cups to anyone who turned up with any intent!
-
If the dwarf does leave Sunderland, for whatever alleged reason, there will be those who would have him back at Villa Park.
I would. I could get used to going to Wembley twice a season and finishing 6th again after the current relegation battles and losing to lower league oppo in the cup.
So that was one season and we performed like dead fish in a tumble dryer in both matches. The other seasons under him we basically lost in cups to anyone who turned up with any intent!
If you take the domestic cups under MON I think the best side we beat were probably Sunderland in the LC 2010 when we won on penalties up there. Which says it all really. Anyone decent and we lost.
-
I know there was some good times under MON, but we didn't really play great Football, and we did paper over the cracks a lot.
-
I reckon that if Lambert had the exact same conditions to work under as MON did he'd achieve more than MON managed.
And have £50m in change left over.
-
I know there was some good times under MON, but we didn't really play great Football, and we did paper over the cracks a lot.
And now, we're so financially fucked, it's like we're a widow, and we're still finding bills our husband ignored and stashed away.
-
So that was one season and we performed like dead fish in a tumble dryer in both matches. The other seasons under him we basically lost in cups to anyone who turned up with any intent!
[/quote]
Aftab, I can tell you categorically that Chelsea fans were seriously worried until their first goal in the semi. I know a lot of Chelsea fans in west London and they reckon that until Dunne's shit headed clearance we were the better team.
-
So that was one season and we performed like dead fish in a tumble dryer in both matches. The other seasons under him we basically lost in cups to anyone who turned up with any intent!
Aftab, I can tell you categorically that Chelsea fans were seriously worried until their first goal in the semi. I know a lot of Chelsea fans in west London and they reckon that until Dunne's shit headed clearance we were the better team.
[/quote]
There was a palpable feeling at Wembley that until they scored, we were going to take the game. It was hugely deflating when they did.
-
The most depressing thing about the two visits to Wembley was that we managed about three shots on goal across 180 minutes of football.
I genuinely don't buy this thing about Chelsea being worried. It looked to me like they realised they needed to move up a gear, and did so - without ever needing top gear - and waltzed past us.
I found that much more disappointing than the CCC final, what with it being the FA Cup.
-
The most depressing thing about the two visits to Wembley was that we managed about three shots on goal across 180 minutes of football.
I genuinely don't buy this thing about Chelsea being worried. It looked to me like they realised they needed to move up a gear, and did so - without ever needing top gear - and waltzed past us.
I found that much more disappointing than the CCC final, what with it being the FA Cup.
I don't know if Chelsea and their fans were ever genuinely troubled, but I do remember we had reason to get excited about something. I'll never know what it was because I don't intend to ever watch the game back.
-
They knew we would tire and Terry said as much after the league game. We were tactically so incapable of doing anything other tgan counter attack it was painful. Average manager with acheivements that have to be seen in light ofghe money he spent. Lambert has bought better in one summer without tge combination to the safe!
-
Spot on, they waited until they could be bothered and then flicked us aside like somebody removing a speck of dust from their jacket.
-
If we'd scored first, or even equalised, the Villa support would have dragged them over the line. The atmosphere was incredible.
-
That match always makes me think of this. Terry showing what a piece of shit he is and Townsend proving he is an abysmal commentator.
-
I remember very little about that Chelsea game...almost as much of a non-event as the Cup Final against them a decade before. The whole "if Gabby had been given a penalty" in that game and "if Vidic had been sent off" in the League Cup final a few weeks earlier always seemed a bit straw-clutching to me and that we were still thinking like a small team hoping to get a break against the giants rather than seeing them as competitors/near equals which I thought the whole point of that stage in our ascent under O'Neill was.
O'Neill's whole ethos and character is suited to that of a plucky manager at a club in thrall to the big boys.
-
Hadnt chelsea beat us 7-1 a few weeks before the semi. I dont think they were than worried.
-
The MON footballing philosophy very much follows the Clough/Taylor one, where by you keep it simple for the players, don't worry too much about the opposition strength, tactics or specialist training.
Where the MON version falls down is the quality of player he signed, Taylor was meticulous in finding players who were capable and felt comfortable, O'Neill was very often like a kid in a sweet shop and then seemed totally unsure of players 5 minutes after he'd signed them.
Maybe the lack of decent coaching staff and scouts had something to do with it, but I certainly believe his megalomaniac character played a part.
He had a chance to do something special with this club and leave a lasting legacy, and at the risk of having his Solicitors come after me, he blew it in a big way - And he knows it too.
-
The atmosphere was incredible.
The Tarquins however, sat there in plastic silence with a sense of entitlement. ******.
-
Hadnt chelsea beat us 7-1 a few weeks before the semi. I dont think they were than worried.
And that game was 1-1 at half time. I remember thinking we had a chance.....
-
I remember very little about that Chelsea game...almost as much of a non-event as the Cup Final against them a decade before. The whole "if Gabby had been given a penalty" in that game and "if Vidic had been sent off" in the League Cup final a few weeks earlier always seemed a bit straw-clutching to me and that we were still thinking like a small team hoping to get a break against the giants rather than seeing them as competitors/near equals which I thought the whole point of that stage in our ascent under O'Neill was.
O'Neill's whole ethos and character is suited to that of a plucky manager at a club in thrall to the big boys.
I'd buy that more if the Vidic tackle hadn't deserved a straight red. 99% of the time a tackle like that, in that situation, is a red card. That he wasn't even booked which meant he could carry on kicking lumps out of us until he finally did get booked in the 2nd half. That's why a lot of fans still cling to that one, the whole game could've changed if the ref hadn't bottled out of a fairly simple decision: Was it a foul? Was he the last man? Was Gabby through with a clear goalscoring chance if he wasn't fouled? Yes to all 3 is a red card.
There is nothing of thinking like a small team about that, no one can know what would've happened afterwards and we might still have lost but being pissed off at a terrible decision isn't limited to small teams, Fergie bitches about the ref every time they lose (although probably mostly in a "I'm dropping him next week after that" way).
-
It was that blatant even Fergie said after the game it was a red card. Phil fecking Dowd.
-
The atmosphere was incredible.
The Tarquins however, sat there in plastic silence with a sense of entitlement. c***s.
My Dad, who is a nose, texted me during the match, he was watching it at home, and said the noise generated by the Villa fans was remarkable, and you barely heard a peep from the tarquins.
-
If you take the domestic cups under MON I think the best side we beat were probably Sunderland in the LC 2010 when we won on penalties up there. Which says it all really. Anyone decent and we lost.
That's an interesting point. I'm mentally going through cup runs under MON and I think you're right. Arguably Blackburn were on a level with Sunderland in 2010 but nothing to compare with beating Citeh this year even. Of course in the interests of balance we also never lost to a 4th Division team over 2 legs...
-
If you take the domestic cups under MON I think the best side we beat were probably Sunderland in the LC 2010 when we won on penalties up there. Which says it all really. Anyone decent and we lost.
That's an interesting point. I'm mentally going through cup runs under MON and I think you're right. Arguably Blackburn were on a level with Sunderland in 2010 but nothing to compare with beating Citeh this year even. Of course in the interests of balance we also never lost to a 4th Division team over 2 legs...
That's the crazy thing about this season, and is also something that makes me even more convinced that confidence is a big part of things at Villa this year.
We went to Manchester City and won, putting four past them, and then went to Carrow Road and did the same thing. One of those is a place pretty much nobody has won at for the last two years, and the other is far from an easy place to go and win.
Then we make it easy for a fourth division side to get past us.
The second half of the second leg of the semi, Lambert got it spectacularly wrong with his tactics, but really, the other game and a half was about our fragile confidence.
-
Sunderland was a memorable night but I think Blackburn in the semi was a better performance. Against Sunderland, Guzan won it for us with a penalty save in normal time, a decisive save later and then the 3 saved penalties in the shoot-out. It's not as though we dominated the game.
I think the best victory under MON in a cup was Ajax, but all the other European games were pretty dire.
-
I remember very little about that Chelsea game...almost as much of a non-event as the Cup Final against them a decade before. The whole "if Gabby had been given a penalty" in that game and "if Vidic had been sent off" in the League Cup final a few weeks earlier always seemed a bit straw-clutching to me and that we were still thinking like a small team hoping to get a break against the giants rather than seeing them as competitors/near equals which I thought the whole point of that stage in our ascent under O'Neill was.
O'Neill's whole ethos and character is suited to that of a plucky manager at a club in thrall to the big boys.
I'd buy that more if the Vidic tackle hadn't deserved a straight red. 99% of the time a tackle like that, in that situation, is a red card. That he wasn't even booked which meant he could carry on kicking lumps out of us until he finally did get booked in the 2nd half. That's why a lot of fans still cling to that one, the whole game could've changed if the ref hadn't bottled out of a fairly simple decision: Was it a foul? Was he the last man? Was Gabby through with a clear goalscoring chance if he wasn't fouled? Yes to all 3 is a red card.
There is nothing of thinking like a small team about that, no one can know what would've happened afterwards and we might still have lost but being pissed off at a terrible decision isn't limited to small teams, Fergie bitches about the ref every time they lose (although probably mostly in a "I'm dropping him next week after that" way).
That's fair enough, it's just the assertion that we had to get a break like that for us to even have a chance of winning. We'd played them in the league at VP a few weeks earlier and Nani was sent-off early on yet they had the better chances after that and the game finished level. We got a penalty out of the Vidic challenge and we didn't look like scoring for the rest of the game so I don't feel as strongly as most do, legitimately as you described, with regards to the non-sending off.
-
Article published today on the woes on Wearside
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/mar/18/sunderland-ellis-short-ambitions
-
Sunderland was a memorable night but I think Blackburn in the semi was a better performance. Against Sunderland, Guzan won it for us with a penalty save in normal time, a decisive save later and then the 3 saved penalties in the shoot-out. It's not as though we dominated the game.
I think the best victory under MON in a cup was Ajax, but all the other European games were pretty dire.
Prague was a good trip.
The first game we have won away in the Waffa Cup proper since we beat Celta Vigo.
-
Article published today on the woes on Wearside
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blo
Sunderland fans are concerned about his reluctance to rotate players ("We don't rotate like Manchester United but we need to give players a bit of a rest occasionally," O'Neill says), switch formations from his default 4-4-1-1 or drop under-achievers such as their former England winger, Johnson, who has started every league game when fit. There is a sense that the team lacks a coherent vision or philosophy.
Sounds familiar!
-
I remember very little about that Chelsea game...almost as much of a non-event as the Cup Final against them a decade before. The whole "if Gabby had been given a penalty" in that game and "if Vidic had been sent off" in the League Cup final a few weeks earlier always seemed a bit straw-clutching to me and that we were still thinking like a small team hoping to get a break against the giants rather than seeing them as competitors/near equals which I thought the whole point of that stage in our ascent under O'Neill was.
O'Neill's whole ethos and character is suited to that of a plucky manager at a club in thrall to the big boys.
I'd buy that more if the Vidic tackle hadn't deserved a straight red. 99% of the time a tackle like that, in that situation, is a red card. That he wasn't even booked which meant he could carry on kicking lumps out of us until he finally did get booked in the 2nd half. That's why a lot of fans still cling to that one, the whole game could've changed if the ref hadn't bottled out of a fairly simple decision: Was it a foul? Was he the last man? Was Gabby through with a clear goalscoring chance if he wasn't fouled? Yes to all 3 is a red card.
There is nothing of thinking like a small team about that, no one can know what would've happened afterwards and we might still have lost but being pissed off at a terrible decision isn't limited to small teams, Fergie bitches about the ref every time they lose (although probably mostly in a "I'm dropping him next week after that" way).
That's fair enough, it's just the assertion that we had to get a break like that for us to even have a chance of winning. We'd played them in the league at VP a few weeks earlier and Nani was sent-off early on yet they had the better chances after that and the game finished level. We got a penalty out of the Vidic challenge and we didn't look like scoring for the rest of the game so I don't feel as strongly as most do, legitimately as you described, with regards to the non-sending off.
Totally agree eamonn - we barely hung on in that league game, when they had 10 men for the last hour! They still had 56% possession, 12 shots to our 10 & 7 corners to our 1, I seem to recall Rooney being all over us & hitting woodwork. I am far from convinced we'd have won the final if Vidic had been sent off - although that didn't stop me being furious at the time & bitter to this day.
-
It has been said before but MON has significant flaws, including an inflexible approach, failure to rotate squads despite obvious form issues, inability to see beyond set team structures and a dour approach to the game. He is very set in his ways and won't accept any criticism (ask any Villa fans).
A "magnificently appointed, 49,000-capacity home"? Sorry Louise, your blinkered love might be in Wearside but the cheap meccano Stadium is looking more and more like a palace of faded pink empty seats each week.
-
I know we occasionally give away tickets, but Sunderland have been giving away thousands every home game for years, by all accounts.
I was nosing around their forum the other day and a student at the uni there was saying how they always have them kicking around in reception, to help yourself to, and you can literally walk away with handfuls of them.
Added to that, another thing Sunderland do is stick lots of tickets on stubhub (or viagogo, whichever they use) at mentally low prices - 10 or 12 quid a pop - to shift them.
Their ST holders are by all accounts mightily unimpressed that this still happens.
-
I know we occasionally give away tickets, but Sunderland have been giving away thousands every home game for years, by all accounts.
I was nosing around their forum the other day and a student at the uni there was saying how they always have them kicking around in reception, to help yourself to, and you can literally walk away with handfuls of them.
Added to that, another thing Sunderland do is stick lots of tickets on stubhub (or viagogo, whichever they use) at mentally low prices - 10 or 12 quid a pop - to shift them.
Their ST holders are by all accounts mightily unimpressed that this still happens.
Other than the way season ticket holders are being treated, isn't this a good thing?
-
I remember very little about that Chelsea game...almost as much of a non-event as the Cup Final against them a decade before. The whole "if Gabby had been given a penalty" in that game and "if Vidic had been sent off" in the League Cup final a few weeks earlier always seemed a bit straw-clutching to me and that we were still thinking like a small team hoping to get a break against the giants rather than seeing them as competitors/near equals which I thought the whole point of that stage in our ascent under O'Neill was.
O'Neill's whole ethos and character is suited to that of a plucky manager at a club in thrall to the big boys.
I'd buy that more if the Vidic tackle hadn't deserved a straight red. 99% of the time a tackle like that, in that situation, is a red card. That he wasn't even booked which meant he could carry on kicking lumps out of us until he finally did get booked in the 2nd half. That's why a lot of fans still cling to that one, the whole game could've changed if the ref hadn't bottled out of a fairly simple decision: Was it a foul? Was he the last man? Was Gabby through with a clear goalscoring chance if he wasn't fouled? Yes to all 3 is a red card.
There is nothing of thinking like a small team about that, no one can know what would've happened afterwards and we might still have lost but being pissed off at a terrible decision isn't limited to small teams, Fergie bitches about the ref every time they lose (although probably mostly in a "I'm dropping him next week after that" way).
That's fair enough, it's just the assertion that we had to get a break like that for us to even have a chance of winning. We'd played them in the league at VP a few weeks earlier and Nani was sent-off early on yet they had the better chances after that and the game finished level. We got a penalty out of the Vidic challenge and we didn't look like scoring for the rest of the game so I don't feel as strongly as most do, legitimately as you described, with regards to the non-sending off.
Totally agree eamonn - we barely hung on in that league game, when they had 10 men for the last hour! They still had 56% possession, 12 shots to our 10 & 7 corners to our 1, I seem to recall Rooney being all over us & hitting woodwork. I am far from convinced we'd have won the final if Vidic had been sent off - although that didn't stop me being furious at the time & bitter to this day.
In the game at VP, at that point Rooney was on fire, was practically unplayable & it took the entire back 4 to contain him.
In truth, we never really looked like troubling either Man U or Chlsea in the Wembley games.
-
If we'd scored first, or even equalised, the Villa support would have dragged them over the line. The atmosphere was incredible.
That is what my next door neighbour said to me ( he is a Chelsea fan). That added to their sense of worry until the first goal as they were waiting for Chelsea to get the fans going whereas we were willing Villa on raucously.
Re other comments, anybody who thinks all Chelsea fans are "Tarquins" hasn't come across them very much. They still have a big following of their old growlers who are very happy to indulge in shenanigans, as well as a sizeable number of "scarfers" who will chip in if the occasion arises.
-
I know we occasionally give away tickets, but Sunderland have been giving away thousands every home game for years, by all accounts.
I was nosing around their forum the other day and a student at the uni there was saying how they always have them kicking around in reception, to help yourself to, and you can literally walk away with handfuls of them.
Added to that, another thing Sunderland do is stick lots of tickets on stubhub (or viagogo, whichever they use) at mentally low prices - 10 or 12 quid a pop - to shift them.
Their ST holders are by all accounts mightily unimpressed that this still happens.
Other than the way season ticket holders are being treated, isn't this a good thing?
Yes and know is my answer. Yes, it's great that people who can't afford to go get the opportunity but if it's widely known this is what they're up to then all they are doing long term is devaluing their product. If they were doing well that wouldn't be so much of a problem but if they were actually doing well I doubt there would have been as many if any floating around.
-
Interesting comments by Paulie as ever as I was amazed at what a big crowd they appeared from the TV to attract against such unattractive opposition in Norwich.
Also interesting to see how disconnected the media still is about MON for the most part. Whilst most Mackems, who know their football, can see the truth of it all, as we can, last night on R5, they were doing everything but blaming him for their plight. Marco Gabbiadini, their old striker, was on, and went round the houses in every possible direction rather than attributing any of it to his tactics and purchases. Mind you, to give him some credit, he had at least sussed out how dire Cuellar is.
Also, of note, was the fact that two out of three pundits, predicted Villa to get relegated. However, there were mitigating circumstances. They were Motson and Claridge
-
Totally agree eamonn - we barely hung on in that league game, when they had 10 men for the last hour!
Some things never change. As soon as Norwich went down to ten men on Sunday I knew Sunderland would struggle.
-
Totally agree eamonn - we barely hung on in that league game, when they had 10 men for the last hour!
Some things never change. As soon as Norwich went down to ten men on Sunday I knew Sunderland would struggle.
Was it ever thus. Anybody recall the last game of 2003-4 when we played them at home and they ended up with 9 men for the last 10 minutes but still had us running around like school kids after the ball? Embarrassing.
-
If we'd scored first, or even equalised, the Villa support would have dragged them over the line. The atmosphere was incredible.
That is what my next door neighbour said to me ( he is a Chelsea fan). That added to their sense of worry until the first goal as they were waiting for Chelsea to get the fans going whereas we were willing Villa on raucously.
Re other comments, anybody who thinks all Chelsea fans are "Tarquins" hasn't come across them very much. They still have a big following of their old growlers who are very happy to indulge in shenanigans, as well as a sizeable number of "scarfers" who will chip in if the occasion arises.
The Headhunters were in a vast minority amongst crowds of 12k. Now even their firm is two bob in crowds of 40k, which seems to exist only to be shovelled by West Ham and Spurs on alternate weekends, with Millwall having a go now and again.
Tarquins, spit.
-
I know we occasionally give away tickets, but Sunderland have been giving away thousands every home game for years, by all accounts.
I was nosing around their forum the other day and a student at the uni there was saying how they always have them kicking around in reception, to help yourself to, and you can literally walk away with handfuls of them.
Added to that, another thing Sunderland do is stick lots of tickets on stubhub (or viagogo, whichever they use) at mentally low prices - 10 or 12 quid a pop - to shift them.
Their ST holders are by all accounts mightily unimpressed that this still happens.
Other than the way season ticket holders are being treated, isn't this a good thing?
Yes and know is my answer. Yes, it's great that people who can't afford to go get the opportunity but if it's widely known this is what they're up to then all they are doing long term is devaluing their product. If they were doing well that wouldn't be so much of a problem but if they were actually doing well I doubt there would have been as many if any floating around.
Indeed. It is a very thin line between encouraging new people to come, via deals or freebies, whichever it be, and devaluing the product so much that your most loyal customers start wondering why they're paying so much year in, year out.
Mind you, it looks as if Martin is taking care of that, anyway.
Although I only actually raised it with reference to their "excellent" crowds.
-
I think Sunderlands stadium is a great place - I went there when it first opened when (however way they were doing it) they did have full houses (in Kev Phillips' day) - we played them once on a Monday night and I was up there - it was a superb atmosphere and we bought about 400 which was a decent effort as I think we were going through a dodgy spell - might have been under Gregory. We drew 1-1 after scoring first. Considering that stadium was built for only 19m quid and you compare that to the cost of Wembley I think it is a good ground. But they are a turgid team full of also rans, and he has to accept a good deal of the blame for that.
-
That readytogo site is a bit odd, isn't it? I know that occasionally people on here accuse someone of being a blue nose if they post something negative, but over there it appears that anyone who says anything critical about MON is a Newcastle fan. Some of them are really sleepwalking into the mess that's being made by you-know-who. A case in point is the thread started stating that signing gibson, berbatov and michu for a lot less than the cost of johnson and graham would have been much better business.
-
That readytogo site is a bit odd, isn't it? I know that occasionally people on here accuse someone of being a blue nose if they post something negative, but over there it appears that anyone who says anything critical about MON is a Newcastle fan.
When i looked at it earlier, there were about 10 different threads, all saying the same thing, ie MON needs to go.
No shout outs for Big Sam, though.
-
That readytogo site is a bit odd, isn't it? I know that occasionally people on here accuse someone of being a blue nose if they post something negative, but over there it appears that anyone who says anything critical about MON is a Newcastle fan.
When i looked at it earlier, there were about 10 different threads, all saying the same thing, ie MON needs to go.
No shout outs for Big Sam, though.
10 different threads? There's hundreds of them, all saying pretty much the same thing, they all want him out. The only discussion is whether he should leave now or at the end of the season. Things have to be bad when they look back fondly to the Steve Bruce days. All the complaints are exactly what we moaned about on here, even Mackemdawg gets shouted down.
If it wasn't for Pubehead I'd really feel sorry for them. As a group of fans, they're a real decent bunch, far superior to their neighbours up the road and deserve a lot better than the crap they're suffering.
-
If it wasn't for Pubehead I'd really feel sorry for them. As a group of fans, they're a real decent bunch, far superior to their neighbours up the road and deserve a lot better than the crap they're suffering.
Same here.
-
If it wasn't for Pubehead I'd really feel sorry for them. As a group of fans, they're a real decent bunch, far superior to their neighbours up the road and deserve a lot better than the crap they're suffering.
Same here.
And here.
-
That article states that MON accepts that his owner/chairman will be asking serious questions of him at the end of the season. I don't see that ending well personally.
-
If it wasn't for Pubehead I'd really feel sorry for them. As a group of fans, they're a real decent bunch, far superior to their neighbours up the road and deserve a lot better than the crap they're suffering.
Same here.
And here.
Also over here. Their supporters are great and deserve far better.
-
MON's biggest problems imo were the amount of garbage he brought as squad players, Sidwell (in fairness a good signing I thought), Davies and Knight (caused Cahill to piss off), Harewood and Heskey (7.5m combined, Darren Bent signed for Sunderland for 10m) and of course Beye.
If he'd sourced a better quality of back up player either abroad or in the lower leagues like Lambert has done then I'm sure we'd have had a much more competitive squad and made the top 4 one year.
That's of course if he'd suddenly learnt what squad rotation was.
-
I think Sunderlands stadium is a great place - I went there when it first opened when (however way they were doing it) they did have full houses (in Kev Phillips' day) - we played them once on a Monday night and I was up there - it was a superb atmosphere and we bought about 400 which was a decent effort as I think we were going through a dodgy spell - might have been under Gregory. We drew 1-1 after scoring first. Considering that stadium was built for only 19m quid and you compare that to the cost of Wembley I think it is a good ground. But they are a turgid team full of also rans, and he has to accept a good deal of the blame for that.
Didn't they only have to pay for the part of the stadium that was built above ground level?
-
If it wasn't for Pubehead I'd really feel sorry for them. As a group of fans, they're a real decent bunch, far superior to their neighbours up the road and deserve a lot better than the crap they're suffering.
Same here.
And here.
Also over here. Their supporters are great and deserve far better.
Another member of the Sunderland fan appreciation society here.
I suppose the ideal scenario would be, like McCleish, for MON's position to become untenable with a few games to go, ideally after we thrash them, but for Sunderland to just survive. Providing they do not stay up at our expense, obviously
-
I remember very little about that Chelsea game...almost as much of a non-event as the Cup Final against them a decade before. The whole "if Gabby had been given a penalty" in that game and "if Vidic had been sent off" in the League Cup final a few weeks earlier always seemed a bit straw-clutching to me and that we were still thinking like a small team hoping to get a break against the giants rather than seeing them as competitors/near equals which I thought the whole point of that stage in our ascent under O'Neill was.
O'Neill's whole ethos and character is suited to that of a plucky manager at a club in thrall to the big boys.
I'd buy that more if the Vidic tackle hadn't deserved a straight red. 99% of the time a tackle like that, in that situation, is a red card. That he wasn't even booked which meant he could carry on kicking lumps out of us until he finally did get booked in the 2nd half. That's why a lot of fans still cling to that one, the whole game could've changed if the ref hadn't bottled out of a fairly simple decision: Was it a foul? Was he the last man? Was Gabby through with a clear goalscoring chance if he wasn't fouled? Yes to all 3 is a red card.
There is nothing of thinking like a small team about that, no one can know what would've happened afterwards and we might still have lost but being pissed off at a terrible decision isn't limited to small teams, Fergie bitches about the ref every time they lose (although probably mostly in a "I'm dropping him next week after that" way).
That's fair enough, it's just the assertion that we had to get a break like that for us to even have a chance of winning. We'd played them in the league at VP a few weeks earlier and Nani was sent-off early on yet they had the better chances after that and the game finished level. We got a penalty out of the Vidic challenge and we didn't look like scoring for the rest of the game so I don't feel as strongly as most do, legitimately as you described, with regards to the non-sending off.
Losing a central defender to a red is a little different to losing a kamikaze wide player who dosen't track back much (although it hurt them against Madrid).
For a start they'd have needed to have brought a new central defender on (think their back up that day was Wes Brown....) and would've probably taken off Owen who scored the equaliser.
1-0 down and with 10 men I'd have fancied us big time given what we were like on the counter attack at the time.
Yeah the Chelsea game I felt less confident about but from memory for the first 60 mins it was an uneven game with few chances for both teams. First goal was always going to be crucial.
Other thing I remember is Milner being kicked from the first minute to the last.
-
I think Sunderlands stadium is a great place - I went there when it first opened when (however way they were doing it) they did have full houses (in Kev Phillips' day) - we played them once on a Monday night and I was up there - it was a superb atmosphere and we bought about 400 which was a decent effort as I think we were going through a dodgy spell - might have been under Gregory. We drew 1-1 after scoring first. Considering that stadium was built for only 19m quid and you compare that to the cost of Wembley I think it is a good ground. But they are a turgid team full of also rans, and he has to accept a good deal of the blame for that.
It is a good ground, but there's no point even beginning to compare the cost of demolishing and rebuilding a national stadium in London with that of building a new stadium on empty land in Sunderland.
-
Terry should have gone in that semi for a horrible tackle on Milner. Woeful officiating again. We never get a good un.
-
I think Sunderlands stadium is a great place - I went there when it first opened when (however way they were doing it) they did have full houses (in Kev Phillips' day) - we played them once on a Monday night and I was up there - it was a superb atmosphere and we bought about 400 which was a decent effort as I think we were going through a dodgy spell - might have been under Gregory. We drew 1-1 after scoring first. Considering that stadium was built for only 19m quid and you compare that to the cost of Wembley I think it is a good ground. But they are a turgid team full of also rans, and he has to accept a good deal of the blame for that.
It is a good ground, but there's no point even beginning to compare the cost of demolishing and rebuilding a national stadium in London with that of building a new stadium on empty land in Sunderland.
Not just empty land, it was the pit entrance for the largest colliery up there (my father-in-law worked there for 25years) - it's a fantastic location in the city, 10 minute walk from the city centre, just the other side of the river. The land was dirt cheap because housing developers weren't interested, it had been a brown field site for 2 years before they even considered it for the stadium, the original plan having been to build by the Nissan plant (which is about 10 miles inland from there and has nothing around it).
I'll be really upset if Sunderland go down, they're easily the most likeable club in their region, I did warn all my in-laws what they could expect from MoN though, even when they were all excited by signing Johnson I was telling them it'd turn out badly.
-
Its alright, its a bit bland inside, with too much concrete on show for my liking.
I am delighted that the away fans are now in the upper tier. This season was the only time I can remember going to Sunderland and not being bloody freezing.
-
I don't mind Sunderland, but ever since the ground was opened they've given thousands of tickets away for every match. It was said that in the first two seasons, when virtually every game was close to capacity, the average number of full-paying supporters was around 28,000.
-
The PA system at Sunderland is the best I've heard as well. Is it still Prokofiev it belts out just before the players come out?
-
I don't mind Sunderland, but ever since the ground was opened they've given thousands of tickets away for every match. It was said that in the first two seasons, when virtually every game was close to capacity, the average number of full-paying supporters was around 28,000.
Ah, Sunderland, who amongst us doesn't remember Dave going head to head with that Sunderland supporter on the news when we bought Darren Bent?
-
Anyone heard from Davey B lately? It would be interesting to hear his take on things as he's a decent bloke and is an optimist. It's fans like Davey who really deserve better. He does seem to have a blind spot though when it comes to MON. He's probably begun to see woods through the trees. I hope it's because he's got a job and he's too busy to post.
C'mon Davey, where are you?
-
I always think of Sunderland as a North Eastern equivalent of Wolves, for some reason
-
Anyone heard from Davey B lately? It would be interesting to hear his take on things as he's a decent bloke and is an optimist. It's fans like Davey who really deserve better. He does seem to have a blind spot though when it comes to MON. He's probably begun to see woods through the trees. I hope it's because he's got a job and he's too busy to post.
C'mon Davey, where are you?
He's working for a company making villa pop- working long hours and not getting much chance for footie chat , he is still behind mon but I think very dispirited with things on wearside at the moment.
I was talking to him last week and he is doing fine and sends his regards- I'm sure he will return if he gets some time to spare.
-
Thanks Eastie. How's the gammy knee?
-
Thanks Eastie. How's the gammy knee?
Operation is done and resting.
Bandaged and stitched up and very painful- should ease as swelling goes down but painkillers are doing their best - thanks for asking :)
-
I'd happily see them relegated on his watch even though nothing agaisnt them. Then see if he walks or sticks around to try to get them promoted.
Hope he psses off and then a young progressive manager gets them up
-
Its alright, its a bit bland inside, with too much concrete on show for my liking.
I am delighted that the away fans are now in the upper tier. This season was the only time I can remember going to Sunderland and not being bloody freezing.
It is what it is, most modern stadiums are similar. Sunderland are one of the few clubs who gave up a historic stadium that I don't think too harshly of. I've spent a lot of time up there and roker park was in an awful location, with no ability to do anything with it. As soon as the all-seater rules came in they were always going to have to move.
-
Roker Park was the coldest place this side of the Artic Circle.
-
Roker Park was the coldest place this side of Oldham.
Fixed.
-
I think Sunderlands stadium is a great place - I went there when it first opened when (however way they were doing it) they did have full houses (in Kev Phillips' day) - we played them once on a Monday night and I was up there - it was a superb atmosphere and we bought about 400 which was a decent effort as I think we were going through a dodgy spell - might have been under Gregory. We drew 1-1 after scoring first. Considering that stadium was built for only 19m quid and you compare that to the cost of Wembley I think it is a good ground. But they are a turgid team full of also rans, and he has to accept a good deal of the blame for that.
It is a good ground, but there's no point even beginning to compare the cost of demolishing and rebuilding a national stadium in London with that of building a new stadium on empty land in Sunderland.
I see what you are saying but Wembley was the subject of completely dreadful over budget spending and I don't actually think it is a patch on the old stadium whereas I think this ground is good obviously value for money wise but atmosphere wise, when full clearly.
-
I was speaking to my Albion supporting best mate and he was of the opinion that MONderland are truly woeful. His pick for bottom three is Reading, QPR and MONderland. I hope he's right.
-
I was speaking to my Albion supporting best mate
Hold it right there.
-
I was speaking to my Albion supporting best mate
Hold it right there.
He's alright for one of them. Doesn't hate us and has actually been to a few Villa games with me (we've never lost when he's come with me including the 2000 Bolton semi at Wembley). He even kept me company all night when I spent the night in the North Stand car park to get FA Cup final tickets.
-
I was speaking to my Albion supporting best mate
Hold it right there.
He's alright for one of them. Doesn't hate us and has actually been to a few Villa games with me (we've never lost when he's come with me including the 2000 Bolton semi at Wembley). He even kept me company all night when I spent the night in the North Stand car park to get FA Cup final tickets.
That, my friend is a closet Villa fan whose boss is probably an Albion season ticket holder.
-
Nope he's been Albion since a nipper. Which really pleased his dad who is a Dingle.
-
The words "best mate" and "Albion supporter" confirm a total collapse in contemporary morality. The new Pope need look no further for a place to start.
-
Pope Beelzebub can do one.
-
His best mate is an atheist.
-
His best mate is an atheist.
Nah I don't believe that!
-
I was speaking to my Albion supporting best mate
Hold it right there.
Sterling Albion is who he means, Dave.
-
The words "best mate" and "Albion supporter" confirm a total collapse in contemporary morality. The new Pope need look no further for a place to start.
Ha ha, excellent stuff
-
I was speaking to my Albion supporting best mate and he was of the opinion that MONderland are truly woeful. His pick for bottom three is Reading, QPR and MONderland. I hope he's right.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma0bcqh0Rn1qa9kon.gif)
-
The words "best mate" and "Albion supporter" confirm a total collapse in contemporary morality. The new Pope need look no further for a place to start.
Ha ha, excellent stuff
Best Mate was a Villa supporter. Just like Tom Hanks.
-
Wasn't Best Mate a horse?
-
Note the claret and blue flowers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flickr_-_Carine06_-_Best_Mate_statue.jpg
And fortunately i'm above responding to the proles who make comments about my mate!
-
I don't really understand the horse statues thing.
Don't they all look the same?
EDIT obviously I mean race horses, I understand that dray horses and Shetland ponies look different.
-
Horseist!
-
I don't really understand the horse statues thing.
It's PWS' best mate. I think. Or something like that, anyway.
-
I don't really understand the horse statues thing.
It's PWS' best mate. I think. Or something like that, anyway.
I thought it was a statue of Ruud van Nistelrooy?
-
Don't mind Sunderland but they've never recovered from those two earth shatteringly inept premier league seasons before Derby came along and broke the record.
There always seems an air of pessimism at SOL that even Villa Park can't match.
-
Wasn't Best Mate a horse?
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/14/article-0-036C8E7B0000044D-537_468x327.jpg)
-
Shame he ended up on someones plate as a beef burger really.
-
The club could have cashed there in with branded cannelloni or somesuch. Typical.
That jockey looks suspiciously like Barry Bannan.
-
The club could have cashed there in with branded cannelloni or somesuch. Typical.
That jockey looks suspiciously like Barry Bannan.
Bannan is too small to be a jockey
-
He was at Cheltenham last week, though I had assumed as a punter...
-
He was at Cheltenham last week, though I had assumed as a punter...
I seen Tony Adams at Cheltenham on Thursday last week. He wasn't pissed.
-
He was at Cheltenham last week, though I had assumed as a punter...
I seen Tony Adams at Cheltenham on Thursday last week. He wasn't pissed.
Isn't he a gambling addict too though?
-
Anyone heard from Davey B lately? It would be interesting to hear his take on things as he's a decent bloke and is an optimist. It's fans like Davey who really deserve better. He does seem to have a blind spot though when it comes to MON. He's probably begun to see woods through the trees. I hope it's because he's got a job and he's too busy to post.
C'mon Davey, where are you?
I'm still knocking about Dave. :) As Eastie says i'm working really stupid hours at the minute, ironically for a company called "Villa" Pop! 7pm until 7am, 5 nights a week. Weekend is basically f#cked, and that's before the football. :(
Hope you are feeling better after your op Eastie! ;)
Football wise it's not good, there is a strong feeling up here within our ranks that people are wanting MON to go, but i'm not yet one of them. I said from day one that i would like him to see out his contract, and this is still the case with me. The football is dire, and only an idiot could think we weren't in the mire now. The game at Villa Park is a big one now for us, coming off our run of games against teams where we rarely do much, Man Utd (H), Chelsea (A), deluded Barcodes at Sid James' Park, Everton (H). Can see us getting two draws from those at best. The January window was particularly underwhelming, which in my opinion backs up what i've said on here numerous times, there are financial constraints in place. In came the unfit Kader Mangane, on loan to cover for the injuries in central defence, though he hasn't been near playing for the first team yet, and the eyebrow raising 5m on .... errr .... Danny Graham. :-\ I'm still very much in the "jury's out" brigade with him, but the early signs aren't exactly thrilling, though to be fair, nothing is at the minute. I hope we stay up, my previous confidence of doing so has waned somewhat, but the Villa game, then the two with Stoke & Southampton give us our lifeline. It's in our hands, these three games will decide it for us in my opinion. I'd rather be in our current position as anyone below us, regardless of how tight it is. Like i say, it's in our hands, if we throw it away then as regards to the summer, god only knows how Ellis Short will act.
It could be worse, but it's certainly not good. :-\
-
I don't think the constraints are like they are at Villa by the look of his summer spending though Davey, and with the squad you have, I would have expected MON to have you up on 37-38 by now. I think he is doing a similar job to the one he did certainly in home games in his last few months here watching you at the weekend. Looking to Sessegnon and Johnson and hoping and praying one of them do something sublime to score you a goal or create for Fletcher, and if you crowd those 2 you have a decent chance.
I think the game at Villa Park between us could dictate you or us.
-
The January window was particularly underwhelming, which in my opinion backs up what i've said on here numerous times, there are financial constraints in place. In came the unfit Kader Mangane, on loan to cover for the injuries in central defence, though he hasn't been near playing for the first team yet, and the eyebrow raising 5m on .... errr .... Danny Graham. :-\
But then if there are financial constraints in place, you don't go and spend £25m on Johnson and Fletcher.
-
Good to hear from you Davey but those long hours sound painful mate, ouch! My biggest concern in your shoes would be that I suspect you have already seen the best of MON and you are on a long, slow downwards descent where he buys more and more average players for exorbitant amounts of money and wages. I have a feeling he won't be with you come the end of the summer, whatever the outcome in respect of getting relegated or not.
-
My concern if I was a Sunderland fan is there doesn't seem (to an outsider) to be any kids coming through.
-
Delighted you found work Davey, anything is better than nothing at the moment. Don't be a stranger, as they say around here.
-
I don't think the constraints are like they are at Villa by the look of his summer spending though Davey, and with the squad you have, I would have expected MON to have you up on 37-38 by now. I think he is doing a similar job to the one he did certainly in home games in his last few months here watching you at the weekend. Looking to Sessegnon and Johnson and hoping and praying one of them do something sublime to score you a goal or create for Fletcher, and if you crowd those 2 you have a decent chance.
I think the game at Villa Park between us could dictate you or us.
Agree about the constraints being different to Villa, Ozzjim, but still the constraints are there compared to what was afforded to Keane & Bruce. The 25m in the summer, and further approx 8m in Jan was desperately needed just to fill a few gaps imho. Johnson has underperformed to say the least, but i still think he is a good player and will prove in the future to be worth every penny. When his confidence is up and he's head is right, he's a top class international standard footballer. We paid out excessive wages under Roy Keane for very average footballers, Steve Bruce then brought in a little improvement and up a slight level but stalled, now we are wanting further progression and despite paying "the going rate" for the likes of Fletcher and Johnson, we need further investment in better quality OR we'll slip back again. Whether Ellis sees it that way is another thing.
Yeah, the game at Villa Park will be an interesting one, a defeat will certainly drop one of us right into the vacuum! I smiled at some of the comments on another thread dismissing us out of hand!
-
No-one supporting Villa at the moment has the right to dismiss anyone out of hand at the moment in the Premier League Davey. We have been as bad as any other team this season and most of us completely recognise that. Most of us also like Sunderland and their fans, it's the manager we can't stand
-
The January window was particularly underwhelming, which in my opinion backs up what i've said on here numerous times, there are financial constraints in place. In came the unfit Kader Mangane, on loan to cover for the injuries in central defence, though he hasn't been near playing for the first team yet, and the eyebrow raising 5m on .... errr .... Danny Graham. :-\
But then if there are financial constraints in place, you don't go and spend £25m on Johnson and Fletcher.
Financial constraints are there Dave, attitude now seems to be steady investment to build each year rather than the "throw money at it" the way Keane and Bruce were doing. No investment in what was left from Bruce would have seen us clearly bottom of the table now imho. This season has seemingly backfired quite significantly.
-
Good to hear from you Davey but those long hours sound painful mate, ouch! My biggest concern in your shoes would be that I suspect you have already seen the best of MON and you are on a long, slow downwards descent where he buys more and more average players for exorbitant amounts of money and wages. I have a feeling he won't be with you come the end of the summer, whatever the outcome in respect of getting relegated or not.
Cheers Richard, it's rough work! Aye, agree with your sentiments, i can totally see your reasoning and can see him leaving at the end of the season, not that i want to see it happen mind as i geniunelly still think he can come good here.
-
My concern if I was a Sunderland fan is there doesn't seem (to an outsider) to be any kids coming through.
We've got a few, but nothing ready for the first team yet it seems! Egan, Laing, Knott, etc.
-
Delighted you found work Davey, anything is better than nothing at the moment. Don't be a stranger, as they say around here.
Cheers Dave! Let's hope we both survive the drop.
-
No-one supporting Villa at the moment has the right to dismiss anyone out of hand at the moment in the Premier League Davey. We have been as bad as any other team this season and most of us completely recognise that. Most of us also like Sunderland and their fans, it's the manager we can't stand
Agree Richard, it's going to be a crucial game that neither team can afford to lose. I'll not see it with it being on a Monday night! I'll be chewing my finger nails at work wondering what's going on. I'd have loved to have been there for that one!
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Thanks Paul! :)
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Seconded, glad to hear you've found work.
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Seconded, glad to hear you've found work.
Cheers Clampy! Have to admit though, as it gets to the end of the week, there are times i wish i hadn't! lol It's paying a few bills though.
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Seconded, glad to hear you've found work.
Cheers Clampy! Have to admit though, as it gets to the end of the week, there are times i wish i hadn't! lol It's paying a few bills though.
and thirded Davey B all the best for the rest of the season...but not at our expense ;)
UTV
The Doc
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Seconded, glad to hear you've found work.
Cheers Clampy! Have to admit though, as it gets to the end of the week, there are times i wish i hadn't! lol It's paying a few bills though.
and thirded Davey B all the best for the rest of the season...but not at our expense ;)
UTV
The Doc
Cheers Doc! ;)
-
Bloody hell davey , what u doing out of bed at this time mate :)the op went well thanks pal , bit sore but getting easier by the day - 3 weeks of rest and rehab now :(
Chat to you soon mate!
Was thinking this morning abou the day back in 85 when we beat you 4-0 at roker , Steve McMahon, withey etc, bloody cold day that one mate as you well remember :)
-
Bloody hell davey , what u doing out of bed at this time mate :)the op went well thanks pal , bit sore but getting easier by the day - 3 weeks of rest and rehab now :(
Chat to you soon mate!
Was thinking this morning abou the day back in 85 when we beat you 4-0 at roker , Steve McMahon, withey etc, bloody cold day that one mate as you well remember :)
Glad to hear you are on the mend Eastie, bet you are pleased it's over too! I've had a few days off ill with Bronchitis, you know what the weather is like up here! Factory roller door was jammed open for a week while we had the snow, the factory door looks straight down the River Wear at the Stadium of Light, so the cold wind blowing in from the North Sea almost cut me in two. Have been on Anti-Biotics and Steroids for two weeks, just came off the Steroids today, though i have an inhaler which is very much needed at the minute. Doctor doesn't believe that i don't smoke????
Aye, that 4v0 was about as comprehensive a drubbing as i can remember us ever getting. We've lost by considerably larger margins but not been dominated like we were that day. Steve McMahon owned every inch of Roker in that game, he was like a mythical Greek God! Awesome to watch, so much so i couldn't even be bitter about the defeat. That's how impressive Villa were on the day ....... the b@st@rds! ;D (joking!)
-
Not many of us villa fans there that day in the uncovered end behind the goal- the wind blowing in from the sea and the pouring rain too were not exactly welcome.
I know too well what winters can be like after my 3 year stint in hartlepool and having to climb out the window to clear the snow from the door once - wonderful people and place and the north east will always be special to me.
Best wishes davey , hope we get chance to have a few pints next season if we both stay up !
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Seconded, glad to hear you've found work.
Cheers Clampy! Have to admit though, as it gets to the end of the week, there are times i wish i hadn't! lol It's paying a few bills though.
That's good to hear mate. Get well soon by the way. :)
-
Not many of us villa fans there that day in the uncovered end behind the goal- the wind blowing in from the sea and the pouring rain too were not exactly welcome.
I know too well what winters can be like after my 3 year stint in hartlepool and having to climb out the window to clear the snow from the door once - wonderful people and place and the north east will always be special to me.
Best wishes davey , hope we get chance to have a few pints next season if we both stay up !
Ha ha, aye the old Roker End. If you could handle the cold NE wind in there you could have walked about Siberia in shorts and a tee shirt no bother, lol! Let's hope we both stay up. I know there's plenty on here would like to see us go due to MON and their dislike of him, but at the risk of sounding a tad arrogant, i'd rather see two other's go than us. I'll certainly take you up on the beers regardless mate! If the job situation doesn't resolve itself soon, we've talked about moving down towards Worcester where my partner Amanda originates, the Malvern Hills looks favourable. I'll give you a shout whenever we get the chance to get down that way again.
-
Good to see you back Davey and good to hear you found work.
Seconded, glad to hear you've found work.
Cheers Clampy! Have to admit though, as it gets to the end of the week, there are times i wish i hadn't! lol It's paying a few bills though.
That's good to hear mate. Get well soon by the way. :)
Thanks again Clampy! :)
-
Good to have Davey back. My only trip to Roker Park was our 3-1 win in 1991 when Cascarino got a couple. That was when both clubs were in a relegation battle too. I think Cascarino had some history with Sunderland from a play off tie when he was with Gillingham. I seem to remember him getting some stick that day.
-
Good to have Davey back. My only trip to Roker Park was our 3-1 win in 1991 when Cascarino got a couple. That was when both clubs were in a relegation battle too. I think Cascarino had some history with Sunderland from a play off tie when he was with Gillingham. I seem to remember him getting some stick that day.
The "Ice Cream Man" as Jackie Charlton used to call him! Aye Damo, Cascarino helped put us into the old 3rd Division for our first and only ever time after the shambolic Lawrie Mackem-enemy reign.
-
Good to have Davey back. My only trip to Roker Park was our 3-1 win in 1991 when Cascarino got a couple. That was when both clubs were in a relegation battle too. I think Cascarino had some history with Sunderland from a play off tie when he was with Gillingham. I seem to remember him getting some stick that day.
The "Ice Cream Man" as Jackie Charlton used to call him! Aye Damo, Cascarino helped put us into the old 3rd Division for our first and only ever time after the shambolic Lawrie Mackem-enemy reign.
Dont worry davey if you move down here i will sort you out a nice villa shirt for £20 ;)
-
Just got worse for MON as Fletcher has just been stretchered off after 85 seconds of the game against Wales.
-
Stephen Fletcher being stretched off for Scotland as we speak.
Sunderland are fcuked if this is serious.
-
It's okay, Danny Graham will fire them to safety.
-
Maybe.
But their issues have really started when they went from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2. All that it'll mean is that they will go back to the formation that they used when they were gaining points.
Danny Graham's not as good as Fletcher, but if this forces O'Neill to do something which he wouldn't have done until forced to then it might be a blessing.
-
I was being sarcastic as Danny Graham scores about as often as Heskey.
-
I was being sarcastic as Danny Graham scores about as often as Heskey.
I was replying to Chris' "Sunderland are f**ked" comment.
-
why do players like danny graham always give us problems!
-
He's better than a lot on here think.
-
I doubt it. A career 1 in 3 player which has included 7 or 8 years in the lower leagues.
-
He's a decent player. That's about it. Would be 5th choice forward at Villa.
-
Kev notes these comments with interest and -based on H&V's usual accuracy- will lump a few bob on Graham to score at VP.
Helping struggling forwards out is what we do.
-
In the Swansea side he was an asset because of the way they played. He can play but will never be a prolific scorer. In a MON side he's not much use. All IMO of course.
-
I doubt it. A career 1 in 3 player which has included 7 or 8 years in the lower leagues.
When you look at his more recent, relevant stats (i.e. not a youngster still learning and coming off the bench a lot)
he was the top scorer in the Ch'ship with 24 goals for Watford two years ago that got him a move to Swansea and he then scored 12 goals in the Prem last season.
Mostly a sub this season thanks to Michu's form. I've seen enough in the way he takes his goals to suggest there's a decent player there. I don't watch enough of Sunderland, thank feck, to know how well they are set-up to provide for him but there's far worse strikers starting for teams in the Prem.
-
I wonder how many pages this thread will produce before we all tire of talking about the dummy-spitting twat and move on.
-
I wonder how many pages this thread will produce before we all tire of talking about the dummy-spitting twat and move on.
Nevuh evuh while His Legend Looms Large.
-
I wonder how many pages this thread will produce before we all tire of talking about the dummy-spitting twat and move on.
Nevuh evuh while His Legend Looms Large.
When our inventive, free flowing football fills us with so much joy there is no room in our hearts for negative emotion. So that's next season.
-
I wonder how many pages this thread will produce before we all tire of talking about the dummy-spitting twat and move on.
Nevuh evuh while His Legend Looms Large.
When our inventive, free flowing football fills us with so much joy there is no room in our hearts for negative emotion. So that's next season.
Even then, if His Legend Looms Large(ly) still, then it ill behooves us to let it lie.
The Legend is the the thing.
-
We're certainly not going to stop talking about him while we're a few weeks away from a relegation 6 pointer against his current side.
-
I don't think this thread will be going much longer.
Whatever their fate, I reckon this will be his last year in football and he'll retire at the end of the season.
-
You underestimate his ego I suspect.
-
I don't think this thread will be going much longer.
Whatever their fate, I reckon this will be his last year in football and he'll retire at the end of the season.
I reckon you will be correct .
-
Not great finances for Mon -
Martin O’Neill is facing a fight for transfer-market cash with his Sunderland boss Ellis Short after the club revealed a £27million loss.
O'Neill retains Short's backing, but the tycoon will order a major review of the Black Cats' footballing operation at the end of the season.
US businessman Short will have to dig deep yet again if O’Neill is to get his wish to rebuild his squad quickly, after the club announced yet another massive loss - one which doesn’t even include the combined £20m spent Steven Fletcher and Adam Johnson last August.
Sunderland’s turnover was £78m in the year ending July 31, 2012, but their player trading and amortisation, wage bill and match costs totalled £104m - leaving Short to decide how long he goes on subsidising the Wearsiders.
Despite Sunderland's run of seven games without a win, which has them a worrying four points off the relegation zone following last Sunday's draw at home to 10-man Norwich, Short remains “protective” of O’Neill.
However he is also unhappy that his massive investment in players is not reaping rewards in terms of league position.
The previous year’s loss was more than £30m.
Short hoped his subsidy of tens of millions in covering losses since his takeover would banish the fear of relegation forever and elevate the Wearsiders into the top 10.
However, Sunderland still have a squad short on numbers and more importantly quality - and Short wants a better scouting system to unearth gems from abroad.
O’Neill wants to revive Sunderland quickly, not hang around the lower reaches, and it will be a key summer for him and Short as they map out the club's future - and, more importantly, decide on a transfer budget.
“Things have not gone our way recently but we are certainly not looking for excuses,” said O'Neill. “We are simply looking to get on with the job of producing the results we want.
“When you have not won for a while pressure to win the net game gathers momentum but that is part of football. Maintaining self-belief is essential.”
SAFC chief executive Margaret Byrne said: “Our results reflect a period where we embarked on a programme of continued investment in the playing squad, choosing to retain the services of those players that the manager identified as key to the team.
“We also invested significantly in our Academy in order to secure EPPP Category One status and give us the best possible chance to develop young players for the future.
"Our net operating loss has reduced slightly and we are continuing to implement a structured financial plan to ensure sustainability for the future.”
-
That's a shame.
I notice the chairman wants to improve their foreign scouting. Perhaps he's seen the mess our club got into paying over the odds for UK based players when O Neill was here.
Incidentally, how was our annual turnover compared to Sunderland?
-
What? A club managed by MON has spent loads but is still short on numbers and quality? I don't believe it.
-
I know this sounds a bit like a Man Utd thing to say,
but there's not many/any managers that have ever left Villa and gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere is there ?
Even SGT rein at England was an unmitigated disaster
-
Sir GT to England?
-
I know this sounds a bit like a Man Utd thing to say,
but there's not many/any managers that have ever left Villa and gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere is there ?
Joe Mercer and SGT are the only ones I can think of.
-
Sir GT to England?
Yeah sorry I modified as you posted, but the point is he was a massive failure at England, he didn't go on to have any success with them, only to get Watford up again with promotion
-
I know this sounds a bit like a Man Utd thing to say,
but there's not many/any managers that have ever left Villa and gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere is there ?
Joe Mercer and SGT are the only ones I can think of.
Tommy Docherty.
-
I had a dream last night where I was at an open day and Danny Graham and Pubey were there. I took the piss out of both and Pubey heard and got in a right strop with me when I pointed out he wasn't a very good manager. He questioned my record as manager, then I can't remember the next bit, and it ended with me making "waaaaaaaaah waaaaaaaaaah boo hoo" noises at him while pretending to rub tears from my eyes. He stormed off.
I really need to lay off the drugs!
-
I know this sounds a bit like a Man Utd thing to say,
but there's not many/any managers that have ever left Villa and gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere is there ?
Even SGT rein at England was an unmitigated disaster
No he wasn't.
-
We went out of the Euros to the host nation and missed out on the World Cup after the wonderful refereeing of the game in Holland if I remember correctly. SGT also took over when the likes of Shilton and Butcher had retired from international football, Robson was as good as finished, Gazza was crocked for most of his reign and Lineker was going downhill too. Also, players like Seaman, Gary Neville, Ince, Anderton and Shearer were yet to reach their full potential. When people give him stick about picking the likes of Curle, Palmer and Thomas they don't take into account his lack of options at the time. He was in charge when the great Liverpool side were past it and United hadn't become the best. The cream of English football at that time was George Graham's Arsenal and Howard Wilkinson's Leeds.
-
We went out of Euro 1992 as we failed to win a match and only scored 1 goal for which SGT does have to take some blame.
Shearer had moved to Blackburn by the time of the '94 qualifiers but had injuries and didn't play in many IIRC, which didn't help SGT. But as shocking as the decision in Holland was it's worth remembering we threw away a 2-0 lead in the home game which would have made a massive difference.
SGT did okay as England manager, not the total failure the media portrayed and he certainly didn't deserve the abuse he suffered, but he was far from a success. The main thing was that in the big games under him England mostly failed.
-
Back to Danny Graham. He played up on his own for Swansea all last season and did well. I think he is actually better at it than Fletcher, who for all his ability in front of goal is a poor footballer. All in all I reckon it will make them stronger. A bit like when Carew got his cock injury in the rocket club and Gabby played on his own for about 10 weeks before the signing of the century arrived to cure all our problems. We did really well in that period building a tight 4-5-1 behind Gabby.
Sunderland don't have the players we had, but they will cobble results together moving away from the 4-4-2 and Graham is better than Fletcher as the 1.
-
I know this sounds a bit like a Man Utd thing to say,
but there's not many/any managers that have ever left Villa and gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere is there ?
Even SGT rein at England was an unmitigated disaster
No he wasn't.
He achieved nothing with England only public humiliation which he didn't deserve
I hated every minute of his England reign because he was abused and treated dreadfully,
He has to take some blame but he had to handle a perfect storm of injuries,retirements, overblown players and a shit hand of quality non of it was his fault, but his time as the England manager was a disaster for him both professionally and personally,
To this day the respect he gains from the footballing world is mainly from Villa and Watford fans, that's fine by me he is the greatest manager since Saunders as far as I'm concerned,
but his greatest achievements were with Aston Villa, which was my point about managers leaving VP and going on to achieve more, it hasn't happened very often
Messed up the quote there, don't know why it came out wrong
-
I love SGT but he wasn't an England success. Following on from a team that got to the semis of a world cup, his reign didn't feature one win at a tournament.
It also saw us pick players like Andy Sinton and David White while Chris Waddle and Peter Beardsley could not get in the squad. No defence for that unless you win for me.
-
I think if you were to ask most non-biased observers what they thought of SGT's England reign, they'd say it was disappointing, to put it mildly.
-
SGT did okay as England manager, not the total failure the media portrayed and he certainly didn't deserve the abuse he suffered, but he was far from a success. The main thing was that in the big games under him England mostly failed.
He failed to qualify for a world cup, which is probably the ultimate test of his tenure, or at least what most people will judge him by.
-
SGT was a bit unfortunate that he was very much an old school manager, just as English football started to make the transition to a more technically and tactically sophisticated game. I just remembered Gary Pallister at left back to counter Tore Andre Flo (who promptly switched wings). Not pretty.
-
So the only managers in living memory to leave Villa and go on to achieve more than they did whilst here are Joe Mercer and Tommy Docherty
-
I love SGT but he wasn't an England success. Following on from a team that got to the semis of a world cup, his reign didn't feature one win at a tournament.
It also saw us pick players like Andy Sinton and David White while Chris Waddle and Peter Beardsley could not get in the squad. No defence for that unless you win for me.
Remember singing 'If Sinton plays for England, so can I' one year at Loftus Road - back in the days when they used to put us down the side of the ground rather than behind the goal there
-
I know this sounds a bit like a Man Utd thing to say,
but there's not many/any managers that have ever left Villa and gone on to bigger and better things elsewhere is there ?
Joe Mercer and SGT are the only ones I can think of.
Tommy Docherty.
The Mercer sacking remains as one of the more ignoble lowlights in our club's history.
And surely Docherty ranks amongst the poorest ever manyoo managers, assuming that that's what's implied, taking a club which were European champions just six years earlier (that sounds almost familiar.....) to relegation. One FA Cup eight years after leaving us, hardly resounding success. Didn't overly cover himself in glory between leaving us and rocking up there, either. Style over substance, methinks.
But the opening point is something I've felt for many years, whilst watching not much better than average players and managers ply their trade in the claret and blue; that most fail to grasp that without putting in massive performances, VP is the highest, greatest stage on which they will ever appear. Seize the day, as the Romans would say. Many of them don't appreciate just where they are.
-
I think if you were to ask most non-biased observers what they thought of SGT's England reign, they'd say it was disappointing, to put it mildly.
You's have to find one first ;)
-
As has been said, SGT lost the spine of his team twice over. Shilton, Butcher, Robson and Linekar had all or were about to retire.
The replacements had little experience but notably Adams (injured and then in prison) Gascoigne (Infamous knee injury and then a broken leg) and Shearer (Cruciate knee injury) were lost for the majority of his WC qualifying campaign.
I'd defy any Manager to deal with that lot and an openly hostile press because you weren't their pick to start with.
-
One thing that rarely gets mentioned about Sir Graham is that because of the European ban hardly any of his team had any experience of playing abroad.
-
Back to Danny Graham. He played up on his own for Swansea all last season and did well. I think he is actually better at it than Fletcher, who for all his ability in front of goal is a poor footballer. All in all I reckon it will make them stronger. A bit like when Carew got his cock injury in the rocket club and Gabby played on his own for about 10 weeks before the signing of the century arrived to cure all our problems. We did really well in that period building a tight 4-5-1 behind Gabby.
Sunderland don't have the players we had, but they will cobble results together moving away from the 4-4-2 and Graham is better than Fletcher as the 1.
I thought exactly that last night. The lad they have been playing wide, Sessonnon (sp) is better in the hole and reckon this injury could make them better. They had sod all in midfield v Norwich and thought they looked awful, jammy fecker
-
Would not be the first time injuries make a MON team better!
-
So, would O'Neill do any better than lambert if he was in charge for the last 8 games?
-
Not in my opinion.
-
Nor mine. I'm starting to think that Pubey is a busted flush.
-
Nor mine. I'm starting to think that Pubey is a busted flush.
Better late than never.
-
Withey hasn't been all Villadawgish has he?
-
Pubey's been followed home and found out. Although I've got a lot of time for Sunderland fans and generally wish them well I hope we stuff them and they go down, only to sack the eejit and come straight back up
-
I agree Graham is better suited to the 1 in a 451.
But unless they keep getting penalties for Gardner to score, who else is going to for them?
They'll probably go and beat Man U now! But if their next 4 games go to form they could genuinely get 0-1 points.
I really fancy us to win at Stoke. Fulham will be a tougher prospect, but if we can nick a win in that game too, we'd really be rolling.
-
Nor mine. I'm starting to think that Pubey is a busted flush.
Better late than never.
What I mean is that even his main strength as a manager seems to have gone. Wasn't it a Newcastle player or official who said our work rate and dedication under him was frightening? I just don't see that with Sunderland. So if his one big asset as a manager isn't working he's got nothing else to offer as we all know his limitations elsewhere.
-
He just doesn't seem as 'up for it' as he used to be, both in interviews and on the touchline. He appears tired and jaded.
-
He just doesn't seem as 'up for it' as he used to be, both in interviews and on the touchline. He appears tired and jaded.
Thats because his management is 15 years out of date, he's well and truly been found out.
-
Wasn't it a Newcastle player or official who said our work rate and dedication under him was frightening?
Dunno but Pardew said it about, ahem, Lambert's Lions last August when we drew 1-1 up there.
-
Nor mine. I'm starting to think that Pubey is a busted flush.
Better late than never.
What I mean is that even his main strength as a manager seems to have gone. Wasn't it a Newcastle player or official who said our work rate and dedication under him was frightening? I just don't see that with Sunderland. So if his one big asset as a manager isn't working he's got nothing else to offer as we all know his limitations elsewhere.
I remember the loveable JT saying that he knew Villa would tire after about 70 minutes and therefore he knew Chelsea would win if they were still in the game at that point. Possibly after the semi final. I hated the perceived arrogance at the time but in hindsight he was probably right.
-
It was after the 7-1.
And they employed the exact same strategy a few weeks later to pick us off again.
-
Petrov used to be fucked after an hour.
-
He just doesn't seem as 'up for it' as he used to be, both in interviews and on the touchline. He appears tired and jaded.
It seems to me that he realises the game is up, and amongst other things he's not going to get one of the PL's coveted jobs.
I suspect that was what his last two seasons at VP were about. Sod the long term just polish the CV.
-
Nor mine. I'm starting to think that Pubey is a busted flush.
Better late than never.
What I mean is that even his main strength as a manager seems to have gone. Wasn't it a Newcastle player or official who said our work rate and dedication under him was frightening? I just don't see that with Sunderland. So if his one big asset as a manager isn't working he's got nothing else to offer as we all know his limitations elsewhere.
I remember the loveable JT saying that he knew Villa would tire after about 70 minutes and therefore he knew Chelsea would win if they were still in the game at that point. Possibly after the semi final. I hated the perceived arrogance at the time but in hindsight he was probably right.
It was the first season under him that i'm on about. It's also worth remembering how many late goals we scored in the first 2 or 3 years under him.
-
Along his side his intransigence he made two critical errors that have been fatal to his managerial career. The team selection in Moscow and the nature of his departure from us.
-
Did he not tell people at the Moscow-surrender-dinner to shup the fup up about it?
-
Words to that effect, yes.
-
A good / great manager in his heyday (2007/8?).
That he is outdated is almost beyond question and I hope he takes Sunderland down but mainly because that will probably mean we stay up.
But I do remember a lot of good times when he was at Villa.
-
Did he not tell people at the Moscow-surrender-dinner to shup the fup up about it?
Well he certainly didn't apologise and effectively tried to justify his decision.
-
I am pretty sure I can recall a comment along the lines of 'I felt we would have lost with a full strength team anyway'.
-
I personally think too many fans are hung up on the team he took away to Moscow, his mistakes in that tournament came earlier (as far as I'm concerned).
A weak team in the group vs Hamburg and zilina meant we got a tougher draw than we should have, and even then picking a weakened team at home to cska and only getting a draw meant we were on a hiding to nothing going away. Away on an artificial pitch in the middle of winter in one of the coldest cities in europe and needing to score at least once was a big ask.
If we'd beaten Stoke at the weekend it'd have been the correct decision. I personally think the biggest problem with the selection was that it turned the fans against him, which was very noticeable in the next few games.
-
Moscow was the beginning of the end.
-
I personally think too many fans are hung up on the team he took away to Moscow, his mistakes in that tournament came earlier (as far as I'm concerned).
I agree with this. I thought it the right decision at the time and still do. Yes, a bit of a pig if you were one of those going out there and hoping for better but in all truth that competition is a curse and one we were better off out of. Had we got the win against Stoke would his decision have been justified, would we still be banging on about it as a defining moment? I doubt it.
There's plenty to beat MON with a stick over but Moscow isn't the main one as far as I'm concerned.
-
It's mad to try and quality for the Europa League and then want out - it seems to happen every season these days for at least one club.
-
Moscow was the beginning of the end.
Been through this before a few times but personally I thought Stoke at home following Moscow was the bigger turning point. If we'd have held on for the win in this match then Moscow would have been vindicated IMO.
-
Moscow was the beginning of the end.
Been through this before a few times but personally I thought Stoke at home following Moscow was the bigger turning point. If we'd have held on for the win in this match then Moscow would have been vindicated IMO.
That's my take on it too.
-
It's mad to try and quality for the Europa League and then want out - it seems to happen every season these days for at least one club.
Usually the clubs who got in via the cups and think staying in the Premier League is the only thing that matters. Once the novelty wears off for Swansea next season after a couple of trips to a former Soviet republic they'll be picking their third team as well.
-
I am pretty sure I can recall a comment along the lines of 'I felt we would have lost with a full strength team anyway'.
Are you sure you're not mixing MON and Russia up with Houllier and that Man City away game in the cup?
-
I personally think too many fans are hung up on the team he took away to Moscow, his mistakes in that tournament came earlier (as far as I'm concerned).
I agree with this. I thought it the right decision at the time and still do. Yes, a bit of a pig if you were one of those going out there and hoping for better but in all truth that competition is a curse and one we were better off out of. Had we got the win against Stoke would his decision have been justified, would we still be banging on about it as a defining moment? I doubt it.
There's plenty to beat MON with a stick over but Moscow isn't the main one as far as I'm concerned.
I agree.
I understood why MON did what he did at the time, although I might not think it was the right decision, I can see why he opted to do that.
Football should really be about winning things, not finishing in the top four, but unfortunately, for many many people and clubs, it is.
What O'Neill did in Moscow is understandable.
The crushing sense of failure in that Stoke game just after, though, is something I won't forget in a hurry.
-
I am pretty sure I can recall a comment along the lines of 'I felt we would have lost with a full strength team anyway'.
Are you sure you're not mixing MON and Russia up with Houllier and that Man City away game in the cup?
I think that was a mix up. MON blasted my mate at the dinner and put me off O'Neill there on out.
I would also say that with a full strength side, we'd have come close to beating them, especially if Gardner's goal hadn't been wrongly disallowed.
-
It's mad to try and quality for the Europa League and then want out - it seems to happen every season these days for at least one club.
I think the aim was Champions League qualification. Europa League was the booby prize that got in the way of Champions League qualification the following season.
-
Victory over Stoke would not have vindicated the decision, getting fourth place might have.
We had not played well since the Arsenal 2-2 at Christmas. We'd racked up good run of wins away from home without being convincing - I can remember a 1-0 at Hull courtesy of a late own goal and a penalty at Sunderland. The fixture list had been kind.
However, at home we had lost to Chelsea and got a 0-0 against Wigan. The team already looked jaded, I doubt that either Moscow or Stoke made much difference to the defeats that immediately followed against Manu, Tottenham, ManCity or Liverpool, although we did play well at OT.
Those that went to Moscow were entitled to feel short changed and deserved some acknowledgement from the club. O'Neill's reported comments are beyond belief.
The real shame of the episode was that the justified furore/meal did obscure what was a fine performance by the lads that did play in Moscow.
-
It goes from bad to worse for MONderland - Stephen Fletcher is out for the rest of the season.
Poor old Martin.
-
I personally think too many fans are hung up on the team he took away to Moscow, his mistakes in that tournament came earlier (as far as I'm concerned).
I agree with this. I thought it the right decision at the time and still do. Yes, a bit of a pig if you were one of those going out there and hoping for better but in all truth that competition is a curse and one we were better off out of. Had we got the win against Stoke would his decision have been justified, would we still be banging on about it as a defining moment? I doubt it.
There's plenty to beat MON with a stick over but Moscow isn't the main one as far as I'm concerned.
I agree.
I understood why MON did what he did at the time, although I might not think it was the right decision, I can see why he opted to do that.
Football should really be about winning things, not finishing in the top four, but unfortunately, for many many people and clubs, it is.
What O'Neill did in Moscow is understandable.
The crushing sense of failure in that Stoke game just after, though, is something I won't forget in a hurry.
Yep, said so at the time. We'd have avoided going to Moscow in the middle of their winter had we'd played (been managed) more cannily in earlier games. This was the point where the MON myth was spiked for me.
-
After forking out a fortune to see us field a team of kids against Hamburg, I always thought that was his huge mistake.
-
I don't know if it was because he didn't take the competitions seriously but O'Neill's cup teams rarely seemed to play well and the squad players hardly ever took the chance when they got a run-out.
-
It goes from bad to worse for MONderland - Stephen Fletcher is out for the rest of the season.
Poor old Martin.
Where is this being reported?
-
I don't know if it was because he didn't take the competitions seriously but O'Neill's cup teams rarely seemed to play well and the squad players hardly ever took the chance when they got a run-out.
Yes, as I remember there were no cup runs until his last season when the draws were kind to us. Then as soon as we played someone decent we lost.
-
The Guardian a couple of hours ago.
Sunderland will almost certainly have to win their fight against relegation without Steven Fletcher. The £12m Scotland centre-forward will find out later this week whether he requires surgery to repair the ligament damage injury he sustained to his right ankle while on international duty on Friday night.
Even if an operation is not needed, Fletcher is expected to be either ruled out for the remainder of the season or sidelined for around six weeks. Swelling around the injury has made a definitive diagnosis difficult but, after undergoing further scans, Sunderland's key striker is likely to see a consultant on Tuesday or Wednesday who will provide an accurate prognosis.
With his side only four points above the relegation zone and not having won any of their past seven games, Fletcher's absence is the last thing Martin O'Neill needs.
Sunderland's manager, who also expects that knee trouble will sideline Lee Cattemole the rest of the campaign, faces a run of testing games against Manchester United, Chelsea, Newcastle, Everton and Aston Villa over the coming weeks.
Although his goals have dried up since the New Year, Fletcher has scored 11 times in 28 Premier League appearances for O'Neill's team since arriving from Wolves last summer and is by far Sunderland's most dangerous forward.
In his absence the team will have to rely on Danny Graham, a £5m signing from Swansea in January, and the £8m England Under-21 international Connor Wickham, neither of whom have scored a league goal for Sunderland this season. Meanwhile Stéphane Sessègnon, who can also operate in attack, has recently been hampered by groin trouble.
-
That's a real shame for the player and their supporters.
-
That's a real shame for the player and their supporters.
Not for their manager though :)
-
I don't know if it was because he didn't take the competitions seriously but O'Neill's cup teams rarely seemed to play well and the squad players hardly ever took the chance when they got a run-out.
I wonder if it was in part because they knew regardless of what they did, he'd revert back to the same starting 11 that played every other week.
-
Square pegs, round holes.
Plan A. If it doesn't work, revert to Plan A.
-
Did I read that right? 8m for Wickham? Shit the bed.
-
That was Bruce who signed him.
-
I know she's the Guardian's north-east correspondent and everything, but Louise Taylor's doing a pretty bad job of disguising which side of the O'Neill debate she comes down on here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/mar/23/ten-things-premier-league
-
I don't know if it was because he didn't take the competitions seriously but O'Neill's cup teams rarely seemed to play well and the squad players hardly ever took the chance when they got a run-out.
I also think part of the problem might have been that, in O'Neil's eyes, you were either in the first team squad or you didn't exist. I can't imagine the fringe players felt that incentivised to really go for it when given the chance.
-
The real shame of the episode was that the justified furore/meal did obscure what was a fine performance by the lads that did play in Moscow.
Spot on, Steve, I thought that too.
-
Did I read that right? 8m for Wickham? Shit the bed.
It's ridiculous, but far less ridiculous than £6m for Delph. And I like Delph.
-
I am pretty sure I can recall a comment along the lines of 'I felt we would have lost with a full strength team anyway'.
Moscow had a good team that year with Vagner Love, Zhirkov, Krasic all playing for them but I'm pretty sure they were knocked out in the next round so pretty sure it wasn't beyond us to get a 2-2.
Point that often gets overlooked is that I believe in the defence we played out there, Davies and Knight were our centre half combo. They played again against Stoke so you wonder if those two defensive lapses late on could've been prevented if we'd just rested them instead and played Clark and Cuellar.
-
I don't know if it was because he didn't take the competitions seriously but O'Neill's cup teams rarely seemed to play well and the squad players hardly ever took the chance when they got a run-out.
I also think part of the problem might have been that, in O'Neil's eyes, you were either in the first team squad or you didn't exist. I can't imagine the fringe players felt that incentivised to really go for it when given the chance.
But he hypnotised us. We bought into it. Any pre-match interview and we'd all believe that the next league game was the most important the club had ever played, no place for unproven kids. At the time, did any of us even notice, or overly care, how few from our own much-acclaimed academy ever got a league start, let alone the opportunity to claim a regular place? In Martin we trusted.
-
In Martin we trusted.
And it'll take years to get over it.
-
That's a real shame for the player and their supporters.
Not for their manager though :)
I chose my words carefully ;)
-
... and even then picking a weakened team at home to cska and only getting a draw meant we were on a hiding to nothing going away.
We picked our strongest side in the home leg as I recall. Presumably the plan was to be in a commanding position after the first game meaning we could have the option of bringing some senior players to see out the second leg in Moscow.
-
I know she's the Guardian's north-east correspondent and everything, but Louise Taylor's doing a pretty bad job of disguising which side of the O'Neill debate she comes down on here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/mar/23/ten-things-premier-league
Didn't know about the Petrov bit she mentions:
Villa's travails have coincided with their captain and key midfielder's year-long absence due to acute leukaemia. Villa Park still breaks into applause in the 19th minute of every home game – 19 is Petrov's number. Now in remission, he hopes to see Paul Lambert's side escape the drop before helping organise a charity match in Sofia which will pit a Bulgaria All Stars XI featuring Hristo Stoichkov and Dimitar Berbatov against a Villa old boys ensemble, with proceeds funding care for childhood leukaemia victims.
-
I know she's the Guardian's north-east correspondent and everything, but Louise Taylor's doing a pretty bad job of disguising which side of the O'Neill debate she comes down on here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/mar/23/ten-things-premier-league
Didn't know about the Petrov bit she mentions:
Villa's travails have coincided with their captain and key midfielder's year-long absence due to acute leukaemia. Villa Park still breaks into applause in the 19th minute of every home game – 19 is Petrov's number. Now in remission, he hopes to see Paul Lambert's side escape the drop before helping organise a charity match in Sofia which will pit a Bulgaria All Stars XI featuring Hristo Stoichkov and Dimitar Berbatov against a Villa old boys ensemble, with proceeds funding care for childhood leukaemia victims.
FPA Bulgaria Tour (http://www.astonvillafpa.org/?q=content/aston-villa-fpa-launch-bulgaria-tour)
-
... and even then picking a weakened team at home to cska and only getting a draw meant we were on a hiding to nothing going away.
We picked our strongest side in the home leg as I recall. Presumably the plan was to be in a commanding position after the first game meaning we could have the option of bringing some senior players to see out the second leg in Moscow.
Having just checked we did indeed, I was certain we'd picked a weaker side. The main point still stands though that we lost 2 games in the group by playing a reserve team, had we won them we'd have had a much better draw than having to go away to Moscow in winter.
-
SGT was a bit unfortunate that he was very much an old school manager, just as English football started to make the transition to a more technically and tactically sophisticated game. I just remembered Gary Pallister at left back to counter Tore Andre Flo (who promptly switched wings). Not pretty.
Yes thankfully subsequent to his reign - which was pretty rubbish when it came to the crunch - we have had much more clueless muppets who did worse - Keegan and Brollyman
-
SGT was a bit unfortunate that he was very much an old school manager, just as English football started to make the transition to a more technically and tactically sophisticated game. I just remembered Gary Pallister at left back to counter Tore Andre Flo (who promptly switched wings). Not pretty.
Yes thankfully subsequent to his reign - which was pretty rubbish when it came to the crunch - we have had much more clueless muppets who did worse - Keegan and Brollyman
It's not just that though, He also had a dreadfully unlucky time with injuries and had a lot of players retire who would've been in his side and the replacements just weren't ready. Shearer is a interesting one as he caleld him up at least twice only to see him withdraw with a niggle. He was also in a terrible position of having a striker who was a national hero but was clearly not up to it at the highest level by the end of his time as manager.
-
Hadn't Lineker retired from international football before the 1994 qualifiers started? I thought his last game was that Sweden game at the Euros.
-
Hadn't Lineker retired from international football before the 1994 qualifiers started? I thought his last game was that Sweden game at the Euros.
It was. That was why SGT was vilified for substituting him.
-
I am sure SGT, BFR, BL & JG would have loved the working conditions that MON enjoyed. A chairman who did not intefere and money to spend, add a fan base who were 100% behind him and that was ideal for him.
I think they would have all spent the money better than MON and two of them did bring silverware in the the club.
-
Do Lineker and SGT's paths cross much now that both work for the BBC? Is there still bitterness present from Dumbo the crisp thief?
-
Hadn't Lineker retired from international football before the 1994 qualifiers started? I thought his last game was that Sweden game at the Euros.
Yeah, I got the competitions wrong, I remember 1 of the qualifying campaigns where Lineker was useless, just couldn't remember which it was, to save face a little I was 13 when he retired from internationals, that feels like a hell of a long time ago to me!
-
Do Lineker and SGT's paths cross much now that both work for the BBC? Is there still bitterness present from Dumbo the crisp thief?
Don't really know but do know...
You will find many people say good things when speaking about SGT, rarely if ever do you hear a bad thing.
You hear many people who say bad things when speaking about Linaker, rarely if ever do you hear a good thing.
-
It goes from bad to worse for MONderland - Stephen Fletcher is out for the rest of the season.
Poor old Martin.
He will still play him , knowing MON ;)
-
Do Lineker and SGT's paths cross much now that both work for the BBC? Is there still bitterness present from Dumbo the crisp thief?
Don't really know but do know...
You will find many people say good things when speaking about SGT, rarely if ever do you hear a bad thing.
You hear many people who say bad things when speaking about Linaker, rarely if ever do you hear a good thing.
You will struggle to look back and find any negative quotes about SGT from Lineker. That is because he hides behind his agent and mouthpiece John Holmes when it comes to that sort of thing. You will find plenty of digs at SGT from him over the years.
-
It goes from bad to worse for MONderland - Stephen Fletcher is out for the rest of the season.
Poor old Martin.
He will still play him , knowing MON ;)
At right back.
-
... and even then picking a weakened team at home to cska and only getting a draw meant we were on a hiding to nothing going away.
We picked our strongest side in the home leg as I recall. Presumably the plan was to be in a commanding position after the first game meaning we could have the option of bringing some senior players to see out the second leg in Moscow.
Eamon, that is my recollection too, though I don't have access to the team and squad details for that game.
We picked a full team, gave it a go and played really poorly - IIRC it was Moscow's first game after their winter break and we should have been sharper than them. The seeds of elimination were sewn at home, though the tie was still winnable - albeit with a lot of hurdles on a plastic pitch in arctic conditions.
-
Fletcher and cattermole both confirmed as ruled out for the rest of the season - what a shame .
-
Good.
-
Villa team from the home leg against Moscow.
Aston Villa: Guzan, Luke Young, Davies, Knight, Shorey, Gardner, Petrov, Barry, Ashley Young, Carew, Agbonlahor.
Subs Not Used: Friedel, Bannan, Salifou, Lowry, Albrighton, Harewood, Delfouneso.
-
Whatever happened to the Moscow forward with the blue hair? I seem to remember him having a good game here.
-
Fletcher and cattermole both confirmed as ruled out for the rest of the season - what a shame .
That's great news.
Bet365 have Sunderland 5/2 to go down now. I had 10/1 a couple of weeks ago.
-
Whatever happened to the Moscow forward with the blue hair? I seem to remember him having a good game here.
Vagner Love. Not much, went to South America and is back with CSKA.
-
Going down now I reckon. Come on pube head you can do it
-
Didn't Wagner Love have a porn star girlfriend or something?
-
Ready made excuse for MON there now that Guacamole & Feltcher are out, the we love Martin brigade will also use this as a convenient excuse if they drop.
-
Didn't Wagner Love have a porn star girlfriend or something?
With a name like that I hope he does!
-
I think Vagner Love couldn't be arsed with fitness regimes and decided to drink a lot and shag around instead, a bit like Adriano and Ronaldinho. Ended up back at Brazil where they tolerate this attitude more.
Decent player though.
-
Don't most Brazilian footballers have porn star girlfriends?
-
Don't most Brazilian footballers have porn star girlfriends?
It's because most porn stars misunderstand when told they have to have a Brazilian if they want to succeed in porn.
-
Don't most Brazilian footballers have porn star girlfriends?
It's because most porn stars misunderstand when told they have to have a Brazilian if they want to succeed in porn.
Haha, very good PWS
-
His real name is Vágner Silva de Souza. 'Love' was a nickname because of the amount of shagging around he did.
-
I think Vagner Love couldn't be arsed with fitness regimes and decided to drink a lot and shag around instead, a bit like Adriano and Ronaldinho. Ended up back at Brazil where they tolerate this attitude more.
Not like our model England players.
-
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/12/brazil-international-vagner-love-orgies_n_1420282.html
-
Fletcher and cattermole both confirmed as ruled out for the rest of the season - what a shame .
That's great news.
Bet365 have Sunderland 5/2 to go down now. I had 10/1 a couple of weeks ago.
They're also very generously offering 10/1 that Sunderland don't win another game this season.
I can't see them winning any of their next four games. Their key game is against us at Villa Park. Lose that and they're finished, they just won't recover.
Edit: A (heavy) defeat to the Barcodes next week will have the Mackems on suicide watch.
-
Bit of a bummer losing your main striker in a pointless Scottish World Cup qualifying game!
-
Fletcher and cattermole both confirmed as ruled out for the rest of the season - what a shame .
That's great news.
Bet365 have Sunderland 5/2 to go down now. I had 10/1 a couple of weeks ago.
They're also very generously offering 10/1 that Sunderland don't win another game this season.
I can't see them winning any of their next four games. Their key game is against us at Villa Park. Lose that and they're finished, they just won't recover.
Edit: A (heavy) defeat to the Barcodes next week will have the Mackems on suicide watch.
Us long term MON sceptics will raise a glass as he takes them down.
Although it's a shame it isn't someone loathable rather than Sunderland.
-
I couldn't give a shit which club he takes down, just as long as we stay up.
-
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Sunderland stay up, provided :
1) Stoke go down instead
2) O'Neill gets sacked anyway
3) He sues the club
4) He loses. Badly.
-
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Sunderland stay up, provided :
1) Stoke go down instead
2) O'Neill gets sacked anyway
3) He sues the club
4) He loses. Badly.
Not bitter are we, Steve? ;D
-
I'd rather he took them down, then got sacked. But, yes - I'd also love Stoke to go down - or Pulis to be sacked. Can't see that happening though.
-
The novelty of being a competent PL club has worn off for a lot of the Stoke fans and after a cup final and Europe they are frustrated at not kicking on from there. For that reason they are starting to turn against the style of play too.. On the other hand Pulis and the owner seem to have a strong relationship.
-
Had a small flutter on Stoke to go at 33-1 yesterday
-
I'll send you a quid as a prize if they go
-
Had a small flutter on Stoke to go at 33-1 yesterday
That would be nice but I think they'll just have enough to stay up, sadly.
-
As it stands, it looks like one from Southampton, Sunderland, Villa and Wigan joining Reading and QPR. Clubs like Fulham, West Ham, Stoke and Norwich need those below to have a good run and themselves to have an absolutely disastrous run.
-
Had a small flutter on Stoke to go at 33-1 yesterday
That would be nice but I think they'll just have enough to stay up, sadly.
Like us last season they will ground out enough draws to stay up ..next season though ...
-
So Adkins could join Saunders and McNeill in getting 2 teams relegated in the same season.
-
So Adkins could join Saunders and McNeill in getting 2 teams relegated in the same season.
Or it could be said "Not keeping them up". Totally different.
-
I don't think QPR are down yet as they have some big games coming up against teams around them. Although we have our noses just above the drop zone I still think its us that will go. Win on Sunday, however, coupled together with defeats for Stoke, Sunderland, Southampton, Wigan, QPR, and Reading and I may change that opinion. Oh, and we need to win something like 21-0.
-
The novelty of being a competent PL club has worn off for a lot of the Stoke fans and after a cup final and Europe they are frustrated at not kicking on from there. For that reason they are starting to turn against the style of play too.. On the other hand Pulis and the owner seem to have a strong relationship.
I think Charlton were similar in that Curbishley would always keep them up, but never push them on. It's when that became not enough and we left, things started to go wrong for them. Pulis will keep them up, but if they sack him they'll be on borrowed time in the PL.
-
I don't think QPR are down yet as they have some big games coming up against teams around them. Although we have our noses just above the drop zone I still think its us that will go. Win on Sunday, however, coupled together with defeats for Stoke, Sunderland, Southampton, Wigan, QPR, and Reading and I may change that opinion. Oh, and we need to win something like 21-0.
That's right. If we only win 20-0 we can start planning for our trips to Barnsley.
-
Damned straight.
-
QPR aren't dead yet - unfortunately.
-
QPR aren't dead yet - unfortunately.
Far from it - sad that by playing a day late we may find ourselves back in the bottom 3 but we can get the results needed to survive.
-
QPR aren't dead yet - unfortunately.
Far from it - sad that by playing a day late we may find ourselves back in the bottom 3 but we can get the results needed to survive.
Conversely by late if results go our way, then a lot of pressure is relieved from the Liverpool game. It's swings and roundabouts, but it's very possible that Sunderland, Southampton, Reading and Wigan all lose.
-
I'm beginning to think I'd rather Sunderland stay up, provided :
1) Stoke go down instead
2) O'Neill gets sacked anyway
3) He sues the club
4) He loses. Badly.
Not bitter are we, Steve? ;D
Not in the slightest ;)
-
I don't think QPR are down yet as they have some big games coming up against teams around them. Although we have our noses just above the drop zone I still think its us that will go. Win on Sunday, however, coupled together with defeats for Stoke, Sunderland, Southampton, Wigan, QPR, and Reading and I may change that opinion. Oh, and we need to win something like 21-0.
That's absurdly eye-ore like! If all those results came in it would be a minor miracle. And I don't get the obsession with goal difference. It's a potentially significant hurdle but a) the absolute maximum advantage / disadvantage it can amount to is 1 extra point. And ours isn't much worse than Wigan's at the moment anyway (currently 3 goals).
-
The novelty of being a competent PL club has worn off for a lot of the Stoke fans and after a cup final and Europe they are frustrated at not kicking on from there. For that reason they are starting to turn against the style of play too.. On the other hand Pulis and the owner seem to have a strong relationship.
I think Charlton were similar in that Curbishley would always keep them up, but never push them on. It's when that became not enough and we left, things started to go wrong for them. Pulis will keep them up, but if they sack him they'll be on borrowed time in the PL.
Stoke are exactly like SHA when they first came up in 2002....up for it and filling the ground every week making it an imtimidating place. However we saw what happened to SHA once the novelty of a season or two in the prem wore off and the same is happening to Stoke. That and Delap being knackered means they're fcuked for goals as the long throw was the source for most of them.
Big Sam will surely be the next Stoke manager. Get a footballing manager in and he'd have to sell most of the squad for a start.
-
The way I see it, if we equal or better Wigan's result and better Sunderland's, we have every chance of staying up. If Wigan win and we lose, the big mo will swing back their way
-
I think we'll be back in the bottom 3 as I reckon Wigan will beat Norwich.
Incredible to think when we've just won our two league 6 pointers.
That said unless Fergie fields Bobby Charlton, Stepney and Pat Crerand on saturday, I really don't see how Sunderland will win, point at best for them and I reckon they'll lose away at Chelsea and Newcastle so they will surely drop into the bottom 3 by the time we play them.
-
Seems like their equivilant of the Moscow dinner:
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=769062
-
Seems like their equivilant of the Moscow dinner:
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=769062
Every time I read that board I wish they'd fuck him off so I could start liking Sunderland again.
-
Do any of them like him?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by sproates33
I was there, main points where :-
Disappointed at how season has panned out
Thinks we have been unlucky in recent weeks
Mangane not yet fit, had a few setbacks
Tried to sign an additional 3 players in January that didn't materialize and financial package wasn't acceptable
Wants to emulate Newcastle
Robertson will not be joining SAFC at any stage
TV Money next year will allow us to severely strengthen
Not overly concerned about relegation, thinks we will be 'okay'
Pressure did get to him to play 442 from fans and thinks we are more suited to 4231 IF Sessegnon is on his game
Sessegnon future in doubt
Turned down a bid for Mignolet from an unnamed Italian giant
Players raring to go against Man United
Bardsley fit and in line for start
Pleased with Wickham on U21 duty but doesn't want to rush him
McClean impressive
Cuellar 50/50 for weekend after ankle injury
Talks ongoing about new deal for Bramble
Kilgallon will not be offered a new deal
Financially better than what has been reported in the press
Excited for the derby and genuinely believes we will win it
10th place still achievable
*
Is he sniffing glue?
-
Do any of them like him?
Yeah, ...... i do. 8)
-
Do any of them like him?
Yeah, ...... i do. 8)
We will ask you again in may davey boy :)
-
His popularity shifted steadily when he was with us. I liked him until he left us although the frustration of transfer windows and the predictability of poor team selection and subs still grates.
It is uncanny how things seem to be panning out. I would like to compare some quotes from then and Sunderland now.
-
I was delighted the day mon arrived and delighted the day he left - for me Moscow was the beginning of the end - i never felt the same about him after that , he did an ok job but given the money he had we under achieved really in my opinion .
-
I was delighted the day mon arrived and delighted the day he left - for me Moscow was the beginning of the end - i never felt the same about him after that , he did an ok job but given the money he had we under achieved really in my opinion .
With you exactly on this Eastie.
-
Seems like their equivilant of the Moscow dinner:
http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=769062
Every time I read that board I wish they'd fuck him off so I could start liking Sunderland again.
Loved this post:
He was in fine fettle, just like you'd imagine a team talk, but longer.
Everyone took half a valium, then watched a 20 minute film of an elephant calf trying to wake its dead mother.
After that there was a montage of Shola Ameobi goals set to the song from Requiem for a Dream.
-
Did Robertson refuse to relocate or what ? Just asking
-
Bit of that, wanted to spend more time with his family and fallen out of love with football.
-
I was right about Randy pulling up the drawbridge (even if MO'N went down the toilet after he left).
-
blf
Don't know why but that Everton game, when Ashley scored in the last minute is still one of my favourite Villa memories
.
I watched that at home on telly and I've still got the red wine stain on the ceiling from when I chucked the glass in the air when the winner went in. And I screamed that loud that my daughter cried.
Fantastic!
I remember not even cheering, i was just pointing at the screen, laughing and saying "fucking hell fucking hell fucking hell!" over and over again.
I turned it off when Lescott scored. Doh!
-
me too. i stormed out of the room and ran back in when my flatmate started shouting. GET IN THERE ASHLEY
-
I took a chunk out of my leg when it hit the wooden seats.
-
That Everton game was at a time when I felt real antipathy to everything football and Aston Villa but it really did get the juices flowing when Ashley scored the winner.
-
Did we really need a bit of thread necromancy for another bit of MON bashing?
-
No.
-
Did we really need a bit of thread necromancy for another bit of MON bashing?
I't s not mon bashing, it's lerner bashing mainly, i'd have thought you'd be all for that.
-
Isn't it about time we just got over MON. He was a distinctly average manager, that's all! It's a good job there was no inter net around when Ron Saunders resigned and promptly crossed the city and took up residency at Small Heath. That would cause total fuckin melt down today. Get a bloody grip & get over it! Saunders, Barton, Taylor, Atkinson, Little and Gregory were all better than O'Neil.
That is all!
-
After so many years watching O'Neill's football you can understand why.
-
Rico,
"I don't want my pain taken away, I need my pain" - Captain Kirk
-
We can argue about the right and wrongs of Oneills departure `till were blue in the face, the simple fact is we had some wonderful times under Oneill, and i`d kill to experience them again.
-
Isn't it about time we just got over MON. He was a distinctly average manager, that's all! It's a good job there was no inter net around when Ron Saunders resigned and promptly crossed the city and took up residency at Small Heath. That would cause total fuckin melt down today. Get a bloody grip & get over it! Saunders, Barton, Taylor, Atkinson, Little and Gregory were all better than O'Neil.
That is all!
This thread had been dormant over two years till someone resuscitated it today.
-
Did Robertson refuse to relocate or what ? Just asking
Christ, if Walford hands the bibs out, now Robertson has gone, WHO IS DOING THE CONES?
-
Must admit since reading and contributing to this thread the more I have grown to dslike him. He got away with a lot because he has lots of friends in the media and the subsequent two appointments were ill thought out car crashes.
Is it my imagination (and sorry if this has been said before) but wasn't hids record comparable to Gregogry's overall. Albeit the football was generally more entertaining.
-
It's a miracle !
-
It's over
Lets use the other thread
-
Is it my imagination (and sorry if this has been said before) but wasn't hids record comparable to Gregogry's overall. Albeit the football was generally more entertaining.
The away games might have been more entertaining, the home games were on a par with Gregory.
-
Sorry if this has been posted before but i get a real sense of deja vu:
http://www.rokerreport.com/2013/3/20/4126534/falling-out-of-love-with-martin-oneill
-
I know that pundits like Lawrenson and Savage change their minds depending on which way the wind is blowing that particular day and Sunderlands form makes MON an easy target but our old mate Robbie on 606 reckons Sunderland are falling way below meeting the basic criteria that MON has always demanded of his players and 'Chappers' is hugely damning of their performance as a team and individuals today. The criticism seems to be aimed at attitude and effort as opposed to just playing badly.
Davey B? You can usually be counted on for a fair, balanced and honest take on things.
-
Sorry if this has been posted before but i get a real sense of deja vu:
http://www.rokerreport.com/2013/3/20/4126534/falling-out-of-love-with-martin-oneill
We were like that after three or four years, the mackems are feeling that way in less than a year and a half. I guess he really has 'lost the magic' as the pundits keep saying.
-
Still no wins in March for pubehead
-
Still no wins in March for pubehead
He won last year in March. Probably because he only had them from December so didn't have the chance to run the first choice 11 into the ground before then.
-
He's reminding me of Ron Saunders in 1986 - the game's changed, he hasn't and he can't understand why his methods don't work anymore.
-
He's reminding me of Ron Saunders in 1986 - the game's changed, he hasn't and he can't understand why his methods don't work anymore.
Sunderland aren't great but I'm not sure they deserve to be compared to the Blues or Albion '86 vintage Dave!
-
I know that pundits like Lawrenson and Savage change their minds depending on which way the wind is blowing that particular day and Sunderlands form makes MON an easy target but our old mate Robbie on 606 reckons Sunderland are falling way below meeting the basic criteria that MON has always demanded of his players and 'Chappers' is hugely damning of their performance as a team and individuals today. The criticism seems to be aimed at attitude and effort as opposed to just playing badly.
Davey B? You can usually be counted on for a fair, balanced and honest take on things.
I was at the game today Damo, and from what i witnessed today i think the above from Chappers, Lawrenson and Savage is a tad unjust. For the previous 3-4 games i would agree, but not for today. I went today, expecting a proper drubbing, but thought the team performance gave quite an improvement in effort to the previous games and to be honest feel a bit hard done by not to have a point. Confidence is still low, and at times it is frustrating to see moves opening up, only for someone "not" to make a run into the opening space. Johnson is getting a lot of stick, but i watched that lad closely today, and when he is beating a man or two, which he did several times today, there seems not to be an outlet for him. I thought Graham played quite well, and that the team worked hard. Not an inspiring performance by any means, but for me it showed light at the end of the tunnel.
-
I know that pundits like Lawrenson and Savage change their minds depending on which way the wind is blowing that particular day and Sunderlands form makes MON an easy target but our old mate Robbie on 606 reckons Sunderland are falling way below meeting the basic criteria that MON has always demanded of his players and 'Chappers' is hugely damning of their performance as a team and individuals today. The criticism seems to be aimed at attitude and effort as opposed to just playing badly.
Davey B? You can usually be counted on for a fair, balanced and honest take on things.
I was at the game today Damo, and from what i witnessed today i think the above from Chappers, Lawrenson and Savage is a tad unjust. For the previous 3-4 games i would agree, but not for today. I went today, expecting a proper drubbing, but thought the team performance gave quite an improvement in effort to the previous games and to be honest feel a bit hard done by not to have a point. Confidence is still low, and at times it is frustrating to see moves opening up, only for someone "not" to make a run into the opening space. Johnson is getting a lot of stick, but i watched that lad closely today, and when he is beating a man or two, which he did several times today, there seems not to be an outlet for him. I thought Graham played quite well, and that the team worked hard. Not an inspiring performance by any means, but for me it showed light at the end of the tunnel.
I watched the game and to be honest had the feeling utd could step up a gear if they needed, sunderland had one real effort on 90 minutes and look a team devoid of ideas and class- you are a great man davey but I fear your team are in worse trouble than villa and your relationship with mon will end in relegation .
-
That looks just like one of the posts we made when he first arrived with you.
-
I know that pundits like Lawrenson and Savage change their minds depending on which way the wind is blowing that particular day and Sunderlands form makes MON an easy target but our old mate Robbie on 606 reckons Sunderland are falling way below meeting the basic criteria that MON has always demanded of his players and 'Chappers' is hugely damning of their performance as a team and individuals today. The criticism seems to be aimed at attitude and effort as opposed to just playing badly.
Davey B? You can usually be counted on for a fair, balanced and honest take on things.
I was at the game today Damo, and from what i witnessed today i think the above from Chappers, Lawrenson and Savage is a tad unjust. For the previous 3-4 games i would agree, but not for today. I went today, expecting a proper drubbing, but thought the team performance gave quite an improvement in effort to the previous games and to be honest feel a bit hard done by not to have a point. Confidence is still low, and at times it is frustrating to see moves opening up, only for someone "not" to make a run into the opening space. Johnson is getting a lot of stick, but i watched that lad closely today, and when he is beating a man or two, which he did several times today, there seems not to be an outlet for him. I thought Graham played quite well, and that the team worked hard. Not an inspiring performance by any means, but for me it showed light at the end of the tunnel.
To be fair, I thought Sunderland looked like they might do something in the second half. Just as the six minutes added time was shown I had someone call round regarding work and I was relieved afterwards when I found out it had ended 0-1. But like I say, Sunderland are bottom of the recent form table so they are ripe for the Lawrenson types to bandwagon jump and have a pop. And let's face it the media love 'Arry and QPR more than Martin and your team. I just thought Savage's comments as an ex MON player were interesting and 'Chappers', who is reasonably balanced was quite damning.
-
Article from yesterday's Independent - Martin O'Neill: 'Sunderland need me now more than ever'. (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/martin-oneill-sunderland-need-me-now-more-than-ever-8553010.html)
-
I should point out I haven't heard any quotes from Lawrenson on the Sunderland game. I was just giving him as an example of someone who states the obvious and kicks teams when they are down. I would take his appearance fee to turn up at the MOTD studio tonight and say "Well you know, they are struggling and the big concern is they don't score many goals and you have to say at the moment they are in danger".
-
I know that pundits like Lawrenson and Savage change their minds depending on which way the wind is blowing that particular day and Sunderlands form makes MON an easy target but our old mate Robbie on 606 reckons Sunderland are falling way below meeting the basic criteria that MON has always demanded of his players and 'Chappers' is hugely damning of their performance as a team and individuals today. The criticism seems to be aimed at attitude and effort as opposed to just playing badly.
Davey B? You can usually be counted on for a fair, balanced and honest take on things.
I was at the game today Damo, and from what i witnessed today i think the above from Chappers, Lawrenson and Savage is a tad unjust. For the previous 3-4 games i would agree, but not for today. I went today, expecting a proper drubbing, but thought the team performance gave quite an improvement in effort to the previous games and to be honest feel a bit hard done by not to have a point. Confidence is still low, and at times it is frustrating to see moves opening up, only for someone "not" to make a run into the opening space. Johnson is getting a lot of stick, but i watched that lad closely today, and when he is beating a man or two, which he did several times today, there seems not to be an outlet for him. I thought Graham played quite well, and that the team worked hard. Not an inspiring performance by any means, but for me it showed light at the end of the tunnel.
I watched the game and to be honest had the feeling utd could step up a gear if they needed, sunderland had one real effort on 90 minutes and look a team devoid of ideas and class- you are a great man davey but I fear your team are in worse trouble than villa and your relationship with mon will end in relegation .
Thanks for the kind comment Eastie! I didn't feel Man Utd could step up a gear today, from what i saw i feel that Ferguson had his eye on Monday's game with Chelsea, and saw us as a potential banana skin. They done their job and got the points, all credit to them for that, but due to our poor form of late i really do feel that today, the prior deserved criticism is unjust. We lost in a relatively tight game by a deflected goal to the Champions elect. We weren't played off the park by any means, and as i've said, i expected a thorough whupping today. We are in the mire, that's unquestionable. We may go down, but i don't think we will. If we can build on what i witnessed today, then when the Newcastle, Villa, Southampton and Stoke games come around, then we are in with a shout in my opinion. Fancy us for a point at Everton now.
-
I think the Newcastle/Sunderland game is about a bit more than pride and bragging rights now. Newcastle seem to be the team nobody throws into the mix, but I reckon they are in the battle.
-
I think the Newcastle/Sunderland game is about a bit more than pride and bragging rights now. Newcastle seem to be the team nobody throws into the mix, but I reckon they are in the battle.
Agree Damo. I think we'll get a point there. But it wouldn't half be "quite nice" if we could steal the win and drop them right in it! ;D
-
Breaking news- martin O' Neill sacked! The myth is over.
-
Crikey-that does end it.
-
Bwahahahahahahaha!!!
-
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Oh well shame blah blah
-
Snigger
-
Hahahahahaa ..
However gives Sunderland more of a chance of staying up..would of preferred him staying to take them down
-
I am in absolute shock. :o
-
Bloody shame, he was taking them down...
-
Crikey
-
He's gone! :o :o :o :o :o :o
http://www.safc.com/news/team-news/2013/march/club-statement
-
This is what Sunderland AFC are saying:-
Club statement
Published: 30 March, 2013
by Sunderland AFC
The club has parted company with manager Martin O'Neill.
Sunderland AFC has announced that it has parted company with manager Martin O’Neill this evening.
The club would like to place on record its thanks to Martin and wishes him well for the future.
An announcement will be made in the coming days regarding a successor.
SSN stating he has gone via being sacked.
-
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
shit - they'll probably stay up now!
-
Replacement expected sooner rather than later- o' Neill reported to be desperately disappointed at sacking.
-
Given a choice I would much rather have Sunderland staying up and Newcastle ging down.
-
Bloody shame, he was taking them down...
That's my worry too- i think they were going down but a quick appointment could see them regroup.
-
Revenge is sweet...
-
After the events of 9th August 2010, I have no pity with him whatsoever.
-
Unless they have an ace up their sleeve ready to take over I think that is crazy. I was in agreement with everybody after the Bolton game last season that McLeish had to go but I didn't see the point in him going before the end of the season. For me, unless you have an impressive alternative you either get rid in time for the new man to work the January transfer window or stick with your manager until the end of the season.
-
Bollocks to him
-
Revenge is sweet...
Would have been sweeter if he was sacked after we beat them though :)
-
Let's hope they don't get a lift with a new manager in.
-
Blimey
-
Revenge is sweet...
Revenge? What? It's nothing of the sort.
-
Let's hope they don't get a lift with a new manager in.
We won't. I think that decision has just relegated us. :-\
-
Revenge is sweet...
Would have been sweeter if he was sacked after we beat them though :)
Agreed, Eastie.
-
Wow. Load of overpaid lazy assed players left for the new guy to try and motivate. Please don't let them have a new boss bounce.
-
If as reported they are looking at a quick replacement who Is available - mark Hughes?
-
If as reported they are looking at a quick replacement who Is available - mark Hughes?
RDM, Brian McDermott.....
-
Revenge is sweet...
Revenge? What? It's nothing of the sort.
To see him sacked mate...
-
Shame, it would have been nice to put a very big nail in the coffin when they play us next month.
I wonder who they have lined up?
Roy Keane!!!?
-
Must be mad. You don't sack O'Neill at the END of March!
-
Sunderland fans calling for David moyes - deluded to think he would go there , i can see mark Hughes taking it on.
-
I wanted to see him take them down, after we had stuffed them.
-
One of their fans has messaged SSN saying he would be happy with David Moyes.
-
I hope he spends the whole night going through his A-level Law coursework notes, desperately looking for a way to sue SAFC, before giving up and then crying himself to sleep.
The little shit.
-
TSM anyone?
-
Mixed reactions. Obviously great satisfaction in seeing him on his knees. At the same time, it means Sunderland have more chance of staying up. Strangely enough though, I actually feel a bit more confident about our game against them. I had that sneaky feeling that despite them being as bad as they were, he might have pulled off one of his typical men behind ball, counter-attacking away victories.
-
Di Canio? Could be an inspiration for a few games.
-
McLeish!
-
I am in absolute shock. :o
I reckon Kevin Keegan would be up for one more challenge Davey!
-
After the events of 9th August 2010, I have no pity with him whatsoever.
This - a million times . Fuck him .
-
They have lost their nerve. Go to be good news for us, can't think there is anybody out there. Martin O'neil hasn't seem the same bloke since he left us, whatever you think of his style he seems to have lost his enthusiasm.
-
Says a lot when its newcastle fans ringing sky gutted that o Neill has gone.
His sacking may save Sunderland .
-
not good news for us at all. Tomorrow gets bigger by the minute.
-
Says a lot when its newcastle fans ringing sky gutted that o Neill has gone.
His sacking may save Sunderland .
How?
-
I am in absolute shock. :o
I reckon Kevin Keegan would be up for one more challenge Davey!
:( The timing is shocking. We must have someone already lined up. I am absolutely stunned.
-
He was going to take them down, someone else may keep them up.
-
I'm not sure if that's good news for us or bad news. Either way, I'm surprised it's happened.
-
not good news for us at all. Tomorrow gets bigger by the minute.
They were my thoughts. With their shit form and loss of Fletcher I thought they might get dragged down.
-
Says a lot when its newcastle fans ringing sky gutted that o Neill has gone.
His sacking may save Sunderland .
How?
I think they were going down with him , now a new man may give the club a lift and get some results.
-
He was going to take them down, someone else may keep them up.
That's the worry. Hopefully they'll appoint a numpty.
-
Dont worry mcleish will take over and save them !
-
I am in absolute shock. :o
I reckon Kevin Keegan would be up for one more challenge Davey!
:( The timing is shocking. We must have someone already lined up. I am absolutely stunned.
with him you were down. without you might survive. Good call from short
-
1. Says a lot when its newcastle fans ringing sky gutted that o Neill has gone.
2. His sacking may save Sunderland .
1. They are taking the piss.
2. It won't. That is the most retrograde step i've seen Sunderland take in my lifetime, probably the worst since not giving Brian Clough the job. We are now down imho.
-
I am in absolute shock. :o
I reckon Kevin Keegan would be up for one more challenge Davey!
:( The timing is shocking. We must have someone already lined up. I am absolutely stunned.
with him you were down. without you might survive. Good call from short
That's not how I see it.
-
Says a lot when its newcastle fans ringing sky gutted that o Neill has gone.
His sacking may save Sunderland .
How?
I think they were going down with him , now a new man may give the club a lift and get some results.
I just can't see who is out there who can make a difference. Doesn't this normally end in tears?
-
Will it be an interim until the end of the season ?
-
Bloody hell! I've been pratting about sorting out digital photographs on my PC tonight [I know how to make the most of a Saturday night]. What a waste of time when all this was going on.
-
Collymore reckons sunderland have told him a new manager will be in place before their next game.
-
Collymore reckons sunderland have told him a new manager will be in place before their next game.
I would expect this to be true. They will have had talks going on with someone, the question is, who? :-\
-
Collymore reckons sunderland have told him a new manager will be in place before their next game.
I would expect this to be true. They will have had talks going on with someone, the question is, who? :-\
Mark Hughes I reckon .
-
Alan Curbishley? DOL? Now that would be funny.
-
Collymore reckons sunderland have told him a new manager will be in place before their next game.
I would expect this to be true. They will have had talks going on with someone, the question is, who? :-\
Got to be Mark Hughes...........
-
Fuck him. Hope we have seen the last of him.
-
You'd think thy must have someone lose lined up. If they're any good it does leave us tight.
-
Fuck him. Hope we have seen the last of him.
Cant see him managing again - next stop itv punditry?
-
I suppose that no managerial appointment will be able to make up for their only real goalscorer being out for the run-in. Graham has looked absolute shit for them so far. Sessognon (sp?) who is their best player is one of those who turns up when he feels like it, and he's not been up for it for a while too.
-
Even though I thought MON was doing a fantastic job of taking up a relegation place with Sunderland, sacking him with seven games left really just confirms they've practically volunteered to go down.
Poor squad, best players injured, massive downward momentum = doomed.
-
Collymore reckons sunderland have told him a new manager will be in place before their next game.
I would expect this to be true. They will have had talks going on with someone, the question is, who? :-\
Mark Hughes I reckon .
:( I have no words .......
-
Here's hoping it's Brian McDermott.
-
What decent manager is there who would take the job at this time?
-
Steve McClaren!!!
-
What decent manager is there who would take the job at this time?
Exactly ...... :(
-
Who is desperate enough to take the job on?
Hughes - think he'll wait for the summer, but has never really impressed
Di Canio - no
Di Matteo - possible
Curbishley - never gets the job
Roy Keane - would stir things up
McCleish - possible
Moyes - dream on
Alan Shearer :-)
-
Steve McClaren!!!
Very interesting shout that .
-
Terry Connor.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
I hope he does.
-
What decent manager is there who would take the job at this time?
Exactly ...... :(
I think O'Neill is a very limited manager, and a total shit, but honestly, you can't replace your manager and halt a slide like that in the few games remaining.
-
They have lost their nerve. Go to be good news for us, can't think there is anybody out there. Martin O'neil hasn't seem the same bloke since he left us, whatever you think of his style he seems to have lost his enthusiasm.
Agree they have lost their nerve. Agree his enthusiasm hasn't seemed the same since he left us. Also agree with your other post that this sort of decision at this stage of a season normally ends in tears. One of their fanzine editors on SSN fancies Peter Reid back till the end of the season. Bookies favourite is Di Matteo, followed by Hughes then Curbishley. David Craig on SSN is reporting this with the tone of someone reporting on the death of the Queen but says wheels are in motion and the new guy could be announced as early as Monday.
-
Ant and Dec would get ready to rumble .............
-
First of all, two words. Ha ha!
I'm not sure potting Pubey is going to relegate or save Sunderland. It could go either way. It isn't the best time to make a sacking but it might play out in there favour if they have someone decent lined up.
I'd much rather he got sacked with us staying up at their expense. Now if that happens I'll feel a bit bad as I like Sunderland and their supporters. Hopefully they'll appoint someone else I dislike so I can feel less bad.
-
Steve McClaren!!!
Very interesting shout that .
Gone from 18/1 to 4/1 in last 30mins
-
What decent manager is there who would take the job at this time?
Exactly ...... :(
I think O'Neill is a very limited manager, and a total shit, but honestly, you can't replace your manager and halt a slide like that in the few games remaining.
Old school manager - didnt change or adapt with the modern game.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
Henry Winter is reportedly in a coma after cry-wanking himself dry.
-
I've just looked on that Sunderland forum and they are talking about getting Moyes, and wondering what his contract situation is.
That's possibly the most deluded bit of football chat I've ever encountered.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
I hope he does.
And lands on MON.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
Henry Winter is reportedly in a coma after cry-wanking himself dry.
Him and Paddy Barclay will probably be consoling each other about now, embraced in a manly hug, wittering about how their spiritual leader Martin is truly too good for football.
-
I've just looked on that Sunderland forum and they are talking about getting Moyes, and wondering what his contract situation is.
That's possibly the most deluded bit of football chat I've ever encountered.
Moyes will probably leave everton but no chance of him going to Sunderland .
-
Steve McClaren!!!
Very interesting shout that .
Gone from 18/1 to 4/1 in last 30mins
That would make absolutely no sense.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
I hope he does.
And lands on MON.
Or on a bonfire ;)
-
I've just looked on that Sunderland forum and they are talking about getting Moyes, and wondering what his contract situation is.
That's possibly the most deluded bit of football chat I've ever encountered.
Why wouldnt he want to go to Sunderland ? :)
-
Note to Davey B: do NOT buy the Daily Mirror for the next five years.
-
If Sunderland go down under the new man they'll be getting pelters from O'Neill's mates in the media. Expect plenty of statements about how they were out of the drop zone when he was sacked and ignoring how they had slumped under him.
-
this will save them I am certain.
-
Oliver Holt has just been seen on top of the Gerkin threatening to jump.
Henry Winter is reportedly in a coma after cry-wanking himself dry.
Him and Paddy Barclay will probably be consoling each other about now, embraced in a manly hug, wittering about how their spiritual leader Martin is truly too good for football.
Exactly. Like the reaction among scientologists when L. Ron Hubbard 'passed onto another thetan level'.
-
Note to Davey B: do NOT buy the Daily Mirror for the next five years.
And also, unfollow Henry Winter and Patrick Barclay on Twitter.
-
Some of the recent managerial sackings make Randy look like a model chairman.
-
this will save them I am certain.
Well, you're in the minority.
-
Damn, I was hoping that he'd still be there when Sunderland come to VP. Then they could fire him.
-
this will save them I am certain.
It won't, i am now certain. :(
-
this will save them I am certain.
It won't, i am now certain. :(
Your thoughts on Steve 'brolly' mclaren , davey?
-
I'm too pissed to apply any logic, but my god he's fell off his pedastal and feck me that is pleasing to see. The odious little gobshite has well and truly been found out.
-
Not sure who can turn around their form with so few games to go. I just hope the new manager does not give them a boost at our expense.
-
I wouldn't take too much notice of the bookies odds on the next manager, especially at this stage. As a bookie I can tell you that the amount of money that people put on the next manager of a club is negligible. For example if Alan Curbishley is 20/1, I could probably put £500 on him and turn that into 5/1 in minutes.
-
Steve McClaren!!!
:( McClaren Out. :(
-
Steve Mclaren is a bloody good coach.He is a Blues manager mind.
-
Ha fucking ha, disappointed in a way, would really really liked to have seen him take them down:-)
-
this will save them I am certain.
It won't, i am now certain. :(
Your thoughts on Steve 'brolly' mclaren , davey?
I've just posted ..... the Wally with the Brolly ....... OUT. :(
-
this will save them I am certain.
What makes you think that?
-
I wonder if he regrets shitting on us when presented with the suggestion he might sell a few of the non-conributing players he wasted huge amounts of money on?
-
They'll go for Phil Parkinson.
-
Let's hope they don't get a lift with a new manager in.
Nah.
I am one of the harshest critics of O'Neill but sacking him now is absolutely nuts. Utter insanity.
-
They have obviously panicked.
-
Collymore reckons sunderland have told him a new manager will be in place before their next game.
I would expect this to be true. They will have had talks going on with someone, the question is, who? :-\
Mark Hughes I reckon .
I can't see what would be the point of that. They're too similar. That would be like sacking Paul Chuckle, giving him a massive pay-off, then appointing Barry Chuckle to replace him.
-
Can't wait to see what his MOTD buddies have to say about this. Black armbands probably...
-
@StellingJeff: Funny that. Sure Ellis Short wrote a let's stick together piece in todays prog. 90 mins later, let's stick together - not u Martin !
-
Merged a few threads here.
-
Not sure why thread was locked for a few minutes - please mods close the new thread .
-
Ah, unlocked now. Thought I was going mad(der).
-
Ah, unlocked now. Thought I was going mad(der).
I merged three MON threads, the last of which was locked. I hadn't realised that would lock the lot. Ooops.
-
I think that the thread was just temporarily locked whilst Paulie did his merging
-
Last time Sunderland appointed a new manager they won 7 of their next 10 games. Hopefully that won't happen again.
-
How dare they sack our Martin.
I'm gutted.
-
Last time Sunderland appointed a new manager they won 7 of their next 10 games. Hopefully that won't happen again.
Quite.
-
How dare they sack our Martin.
I'm gutted.
"our" = "the nation"
*nods*
As Henry Winter said, he is too good a person for this game.
And, yes, he really did say that.
-
Let's hope they don't get a lift with a new manager in.
Nah.
I am one of the harshest critics of O'Neill but sacking him now is absolutely nuts. Utter insanity.
Yep, they've been on a terrible run so his position was precarious but to do it now seems crazy.
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
-
Let's hope that Sunderland's team react in a Reading like fashion rather than a Southampton like fashion.
-
How dare they sack our Martin.
I'm gutted.
"our" = "the nation"
*nods*
As Henry Winter said, he is too good a person for this game.
And, yes, he really did say that.
Sir Elton John should rewrite one of his songs to reflect the seriousness of the situation.
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
Lets hope he doesn't get the everton gig - already some of their fans are touting his name.
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
True that, who has gone on to better things?
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
True that, who has gone on to better things?
SGT and Mercer.
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
True that, who has gone on to better things?
Docherty?
-
Ron Saunders at the sty and the baggies?
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
True that, who has gone on to better things?
SGT and Mercer.
Graham Taylor went onto better things?
-
I think it's a shame for Sunderland, I don't mind the club or their fans. You don't meet too many of them but the ones I have met have all been decent.
Having said that, if they go down instead of us, I won't be shedding any tears for them.
It does seem like madness sacking your manager with 7 games to go. I know they're on a slide, but they're hardly adrift, not even in the relegation zone yet. I know we all dislike him for the way he left us and the position he left us in, but I'm sure if we're honest most of us would probably back him to keep them up, over any other likely managerial candidate to come in now?
The other thing I haven't seen confirmed yet, was he definitely sacked or did he walk? I wouldn't rule out the latter until it has been confirmed. He has got form for walking when things get tough.
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
True that, who has gone on to better things?
Docherty?
He won one trophy* with them. With the resources at their disposal, anyone could at least match that. He also got them relegated. Admittedly, a very special achievement. Either way it's hardly like he went on to great success after leaving Villa.
*I'm not counting the Second Division title.
-
Yet another manager who failed to go on to bigger and better things after leaving the Villa.
True that, who has gone on to better things?
Docherty?
True, very long time ago though. For recent ex managers it's been downhill all the way
-
Anyone considered the nightmare scenario? They replace MON with McLeish, who steers them to safety at our expense. Don't have nightmares....
-
Ah, unlocked now. Thought I was going mad(der).
I merged three MON threads, the last of which was locked. I hadn't realised that would lock the lot. Ooops.
Just as long as it wasn't me going loopy.
-
Anyone considered the nightmare scenario? They replace MON with McLeish, who steers them to safety at our expense. Don't have nightmares....
Nah, that could never happen. Could it?
-
If they appoint McLeish then we're as good as safe.
-
Anyone considered the nightmare scenario? They replace MON with McLeish, who steers them to safety at our expense. Don't have nightmares....
Nah, that could never happen. Could it?
No chance .
-
Di Matteo seems to be the early favourite, though Mclaren's odds have gone down massively
-
Can we have Peter Reid back?
-
Sky reporting that they aim to appoint someone on Monday. If that's true, you can rule out anyone currently employed.
I reckon, for no particular reason, that it will be someone who has "Di" for a middle name.
-
Although the timing seems a bit daft, the actual sacking doesn't, to me. He's been shit for them, some dreadful buys, a rotten run of form and a 29% win rate, dismal football and an unwillingness to try and change the way he does things.
Combine that with that second half against ten-man Norwich last week, which suggested that the players really weren't interested in playing for him, and I'd say it's a pretty logical sacking.
Also, he's a massive wanker.
-
I remember Sunderland fans in 74/75 packing out the old witton end and having thousands outside in last home game and also the season we won the league and played perfect football in beating them 4-0, Sid was superb. Their fans that day were immense. MON may be a prize twat, but their fans have always come across as good to me
-
Also, he's a massive wanker.
Yep.
-
Also, he's a massive wanker.
A good point, well made.
-
In the words of Nelson Muntz: "HA HA!"
Messiah Martin is now available to take over at Chelsea or Arsenal in the summer. Finally he'll get his big job he so richly deserves!
Or maybe not...
The championship beckons methinks.
-
Di Matteo seems to be the early favourite, though Mclaren's odds have gone down massively
Steve Maclaren on the sites I have looked at
-
I remember Sunderland fans in 74/75 packing out the old witton end and having thousands outside in last home game and also the season we won the league and played perfect football in beating them 4-0, Sid was superb. Their fans that day were immense. MON may be a prize twat, but their fans have always come across as good to me
I also remember that day, playing for Sunderland in defence, much loved, prayed-for saviour of Aston Villa, Mr Samuel Allardyce.
-
Going for the dead black cat bounce. Many were advocating that we should do the same relatively recently.
Desperation on the cusp of madness.
-
Enjoying some of Danny Baker's tweets tonight.
-
Going for the dead black cat bounce. Many were advocating that we should do the same relatively recently.
Desperation on the cusp of madness.
Yeah, they were, and they were nuts then, and that was ten games ago.
To do it now is utterly, utterly insane.
I reckon they've been talking to someone already, and it'll be Shteve McClaren..
-
I remember Sunderland fans in 74/75 packing out the old witton end and having thousands outside in last home game and also the season we won the league and played perfect football in beating them 4-0, Sid was superb. Their fans that day were immense. MON may be a prize twat, but their fans have always come across as good to me
I also remember that day, playing for Sunderland in defence, much loved, prayed-for saviour of Aston Villa, Mr Samuel Allardyce.
How the feck did we only get 4 then, Withe was shocking, who fecking bought him?
-
Di Matteo seems to be the early favourite, though Mclaren's odds have gone down massively
Steve Maclaren on the sites I have looked at
Havent seen odds, just comments on twitter and I may have been taken in by the moose from talksport hearing a whisper, apologies :(
-
Pat Murphy has just been on 5Live. What a twat, 'martin never had a chance' 'financially constrained' 'don't forget that this is a man who studied law at Queens' 'I hope the Chairman is embarrassed' 'only signed 4 players so not his team'
I hope MON pays him for this, its unreal.
-
Di Matteo seems to be the early favourite, though Mclaren's odds have gone down massively
Steve Maclaren on the sites I have looked at
Havent seen odds, just comments on twitter and I may have been taken in by the moose from talksport hearing a whisper, apologies :(
Talk sport? You should know better
-
Pat Murphy has just been on 5Live. What a twat, 'martin never had a chance' 'financially constrained' 'don't forget that this is a man who studied law at Queens' 'I hope the Chairman is embarrassed' 'only signed 4 players so not his team'
I hope MON pays him for this, its unreal.
Oh my life, He spent loads!
-
Pat Murphy has just been on 5Live. What a twat, 'martin never had a chance' 'financially constrained' 'don't forget that this is a man who studied law at Queens' 'I hope the Chairman is embarrassed' 'only signed 4 players so not his team'
Remarkable stuff. He, and others, really do seem to be completely in thrall to him. Why?
-
Di Matteo seems to be the early favourite, though Mclaren's odds have gone down massively
Steve Maclaren on the sites I have looked at
Havent seen odds, just comments on twitter and I may have been taken in by the moose from talksport hearing a whisper, apologies :(
Talk sport? You should know better
To be fair, I think the moose is a decent footy fan
-
I reckon it will be Lee Clark.Only a pisshead would want the job.
-
Redknapp. He could do both jobs.
-
Pat Murphy has done exactly what Pat Murphy does. It shouldn't shock anyone that the likes of Murphy and a number of others will be "shocked" at his dismissal entirely ignoring the obvious forest of evidence to the contrary. MON had such a good thing with us. Stubborn, stubborn bastard, getting exactly what he deserves.
-
O'Neill just couldn't seem to cut it without John Roberston. Rather than sacking him maybe they should have tried to persuade Robbo to join him again, at least til the end of the season.
Not that I give a shit, obviously.
-
Lets be honest, it was going pear shaped with him in charge towards the end of his tenure at Villa. Always remember being in players lounge at half time one game and going back to seat when second half started to see Steve Walford running back into the action after having a fag.
-
Pat Murphy has just been on 5Live. What a twat, 'martin never had a chance' 'financially constrained' 'don't forget that this is a man who studied law at Queens' 'I hope the Chairman is embarrassed' 'only signed 4 players so not his team'
Remarkable stuff. He, and others, really do seem to be completely in thrall to him. Why?
See, that is what does my nut in.
He gets given, what, 28-30m and spunks it on three UK based players (lazy acquisitions, no scouting or imagination needed) - Adam Johnson, Steven Fletcher, Danny Graham
Things go badly for him, he gets the bullet, and immediately the pack of predictable defence dogs in the media start making excuses re how he wasn't backed.
If he was "only" given £30m to spend, then maybe, just maybe, he should have tried to get the best value for money he could for it?
Instead, he did what he did here, he just spunked it in obvious places, and with predictable results.
The press queueing up to make his excuses just turns my stomach.
-
Maybe he offered his resignation last week & they spent the week looking for a replacement?
Would you want to keep a manager who couldn't motivate his team, lacked an alternative approach to the one that was failing & no longer seemed to have the stomach for the fight ahead?
He leaves with his reputation in the media & with supporters of other teams intact. But the rest of us know the truth.
-
He was sacked wasnt he and isnt too happy, tough titties I say ;D
-
Il Duce is being mentioned as a candidate. I suppose he might get them going with the castor oil treatment.
-
When was the last time MON won a league game in March? Didn't do it with us, didn't do it with Sunderland, this season anyway.
-
It's a shame he won't be going down with Redknapp. Would be interesting to read te papers explain how *neither* of them had a chance of staying up. While teams like Wigan, Southampton and Stoke managed it quite easily.
-
When was the last time MON won a league game in March?
Wigan away, during his last season with us. This was also the only time he won a match in March as our manager.
His only other March win was at Reading in the cup, the same year.
-
Maybe he offered his resignation last week & they spent the week looking for a replacement?
Would you want to keep a manager who couldn't motivate his team, lacked an alternative approach to the one that was failing & no longer seemed to have the stomach for the fight ahead?
He leaves with his reputation in the media & with supporters of other teams intact. But the rest of us know the truth.
That's where I was going with it mate- I wouldn't be surprised if he walked. Look at it this way, if you were in his shoes and lets say villa and Sunderland swap places in the league in the next few games, would you fancy taking your team back to your old club after the manner in which you departed and staring down the relegation barrel. I know I wouldn't.
He is everything everybody has called him, selfish, stubborn, brilliant (at times) and also a massive wanker. I'd wager he walked rather than got shit-canned.
-
Well I dont know what to say....oh yes I do HAHAHAHA!
;D
-
I hope he sues them. Unsuccessfully. And that it costs whatever he screwed out of us when he left in legal fees.
Mostly this though:
Also, he's a massive wanker.
I'll be very surprised to see him in gainful employment again with the possible exceptions of Leicester, Forest or Northern Ireland.
-
Disappointed in some ways as I was looking forward to him get another 'warm' reception from the VP crowd before and after we twatted them. I was also convinced he was taking them down which would have helped destroy the myth. I just hope they do a Wolves and appoint someone who has the effect of Terry Connor.
No offence Davey but rather you than us in the bottom 3.
-
Fuck him, time to stop drinking now.
-
I hope he sues them. Unsuccessfully. And that it costs whatever he screwed out of us when he left in legal fees.
Mostly this though:
Also, he's a massive wanker.
I'll be very surprised to see him in gainful employment again with the possible exceptions of Leicester, Forest or Northern Ireland.
Leicester wouldn't touch him again. Forest have a more progressive manager and NI - well he can't spunk £40m trying to make them better. Fick off O'Neill
-
Oh and Martin, you spiteful pube headed judas dwarf.
(http://www.jlh-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/simpsons_nelson_haha3.jpg)
-
Fuck him, time to stop drinking now.
Why?
-
Oh and Martin, you spiteful pube headed judas dwarf.
(http://www.jlh-design.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/simpsons_nelson_haha3.jpg)
This. Many times this.
-
Fuck him, time to stop drinking now.
Why?
Because they rang the bell, might have a nightcap when I get home though.
-
Skybet Next Permanent Sunderland Manager
Steve McClaren 5/2
Paolo Di Canio 4/1
Mark Hughes 5/1
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer 7/1
Roberto Di Matteo 9/1
Gus Poyet 12/1
Brian McDermott 14/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 20/1
Alex McLeish 28/1
Alan Curbishley 40/1
David Moyes 40/1
Terry Butcher 50/1
-
'I wish there were more threads about MON on H&V. I miss being able to reminisce about him.'
Posted at 1.40 pm yesterday afternoon, on the 'Lies' Thread.
Ooooh. Prescient or what?
Bye bye, MON. Again.
-
Just logging off after a really good dinner party with friends tonight (yes, I know, how bloody middle class) and I noticed the change in the title of this thread! What was a good evening has just turned into a truly great one! It's no wonder Pat Murphy thinks it's not MON's fault as he is as much of a twat as O'Neill. Actually, more so come to think of it
-
Just logging off after a really good dinner party with friends tonight (yes, I know, how bloody middle class) and I noticed the change in the title of this thread! What was a good evening has just turned into a truly great one! It's no wonder Pat Murphy thinks it's not MON's fault as he is as much of a twat as O'Neill. Actually, more so come to think of it
When I saw the thread title change and 12 new pages of posts after not been here for a few hours I figured he had been sacked. Or punched someone in a post-match strop.
-
Wow! What an emotional mixed bag.
Delighted to see the twat has been sacked for his shite football.
Concerned that whoever comes in will fix the obvious problems (how to pass the ball, stop hoofing, etc) and see them start winning a few games.
Delighted for the Sunderland fans. Nobody deserves to suffer watching that shit week in, week out.
Admiration for Ellis Short - that is really putting your balls on the line.
Concerned about the mental and physical health of MackemDawg. Stay strong, sonny.
-
Been out and only just saw this, it's made my night. The myth of O'Neill has been well and truly smashed. At least Sunderland can go back to being called just Sunderland rather MON's Sunderland.
-
I hope he sues them. Unsuccessfully. And that it costs whatever he screwed out of us when he left in legal fees.
Mostly this though:
Also, he's a massive wanker.
I'll be very surprised to see him in gainful employment again with the possible exceptions of Leicester, Forest or Northern Ireland.
Not sure about the North, but I'm sure the anti-Trappatoni supporters in Eire
have suddenly got a credible replacement for the job.
-
The term Bittersweet is made for moments like this.
-
I hope he sues them. Unsuccessfully. And that it costs whatever he screwed out of us when he left in legal fees.
Mostly this though:
Also, he's a massive wanker.
I'll be very surprised to see him in gainful employment again with the possible exceptions of Leicester, Forest or Northern Ireland.
Grantham ? Shepshed ?
-
let's hope all this bile does not come back to haunt us. At least he never looked like relegating us, unlike our current manager and the one before him.
-
let's hope all this bile does not come back to haunt us. At least he never looked like relegating us, unlike our current manager and the one before him.
absence does not make the heart grow fonder where H&V commentators and MON are concerned. The hatred seems to grow week by week and the very real good times enjoyed under MON are erased from history. He made a dog's breakfast of his departure from the Villa but I wish him well. I reckon he'll go on another sabatical now and return in a Championship capacity.
-
Leicester will not be promoted. They will sack Pearson. A small Northern Irishman will appear unto them. They will have long league cup runs. They will come up via play offs. MoN will resign.
-
Really good summing up here by a Sunderland fan -
Well, the gaffer we wanted for years has been and gone and we are no further forward… Here’s ALS Chief Writer, Sob’s, reaction…
I’ve seen any amount of Sunderland managers come and go, and I can safely say that this latest departure has upset me more than any other because I like Martin O’Neill. He had all the right credentials to manage us, with the added bonus that he was a Sunderland fan, so where did it all go wrong? Hard to say, although we’ve all seen some obvious examples on the field this season.
When Bruce went, it had been on the cards for a while because we could see that he’d taken us as far as he could and basically run out of ideas. When Keane went it was because he’d taken us as far as he could and was more than a little bit nuts. Howard Wilkinson, despite our belief that he was exactly what we needed to restore discipline and order, turned out to be as mad a box of frogs. Mick Mac did what he’s made a career out of, as he built a great second level team and held on in the top flight for as long as he could. I could go on, and I probably will later tonight.
This one? Well, timing is crucial, and with seven games to go, starting with Chelsea and the smellies away, this one couldn’t have been worse. Once again, Bally has been given what looks like an impossible job. Last time it did prove impossible, this time – well, at least we have a few more points, but with only that number of games nobody can impose themselves enough to make a difference.
Why did he go? It’s been obvious for a while that it’s not worked as he wanted it to. Has he missed his marra John Robertson? Has he got to the age where he’s stuck with the mindset that he’s developed over the last thirty years of managing, and is too old to change things? Probably, and being of an age not too far behind him, I can understand that. Mind, you do have to look at the players who have let him down. Johnson showed today that statistics don’t always tell the whole story, and Sess once again showed that he’s not willing to take a chance and attack the ball or pass the ball. We anticipated a bit of a clear-out in the summer, but this year’s could resemble the fire-sale that saw the end of Phillips, Craddock, and the rest. Martin’s back room staff must take a big chunk of the blame, and not just because of Steve Walford’s awful sawn-off tracky bottoms. Johnson’s previously mentioned failure to hit the heights, McClean’s second season blues, Seb’s indifferent season, Mangane’s inability to get match fit after two months – the list goes on. There have been a lot of occasions when the crowd have recognised poor tactics and weird substitutions, and while most have largely remained faithful to MoN, the mutterings increased over the last month.
Where next? Who next? How about ‘Appy ‘Arry doing it part time, a couple of days a week? I’m sure he’d be ‘appy to give it a try, as QPR look certain to go down. Pep? Jose? Hughes? McDermott?
George Graham? David O'Leary? Bally full time? No chance. Who is available? Maybe some young(ish) up and coming bloke like Poyet – unintelligible, but doing OK at Brighton - or even Di Canio – mad, bad, and dangerous to know. Maybe Moyes can be tempted with the really big challenge that is SAFC, but that’s not really on, is it?
Maybe more importantly, has Ellis got somebody lined up already, because he should have. Or will the financially prudent Texan have a good look at what he’s getting for his huge investment, and think “bugger this, Sue Ellen, I’ve had enough of this”? I wouldn’t blame him if he did, to be honest.
In summary, despite my many years’ experience of this kind of nonsense, I have no idea what or who will happen next. I’ve already heard someone touting Peter Reid as the next man in charge of the team. If that were to come to pass, it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest. What I will predict, though, is that we’ll not see Martin O’Neill managing again
-
Leicester will not be promoted. They will sack Pearson. A small Northern Irishman will appear unto them. They will have long league cup runs. They will come up via play offs. MoN will resign.
I can see mon being a tv pundit- doubt very much if he will manage again at club level.
Republic of Ireland manager - maybe?
-
When is the tribunal ?
-
I know it's not nice to gloat. But
*gloats*
-
When is the tribunal ?
For Sunderland, hopefully not until they get parachute payment cheque cleared.
-
Sad as it is, I'm almost tempted to watch Sunday Supplement on Sky just to see the probable outrage about this.
-
Sad as it is, I'm almost tempted to watch Sunday Supplement on Sky just to see the probable outrage about this.
Shaun Custis just described him as "one of this country's managerial greats".
I'm off to finish Bioshock.
-
It'll be interesting to see who they go for next. I'd be surprised if it was Hughes after the mess he made of the QPR job. They'll need someone to go in and get them playing because they were terrible yesterday. RDM is the obvious choice I suppose but thinking outside the box, maybe Niall Quinn?
-
It'll be interesting to see who they go for next. I'd be surprised if it was Hughes after the mess he made of the QPR job. They'll need someone to go in and get them playing because they were terrible yesterday. RDM is the obvious choice I suppose but thinking outside the box, maybe Niall Quinn?
Was thinking this last night clampy - who would you go for to galvanise and unite the club , players and fans for the fight ahead- Niall Quinn is the man .
I don't think it will be him though, I think Hughes or mclaren .
-
Sad as it is, I'm almost tempted to watch Sunday Supplement on Sky just to see the probable outrage about this.
Used to enjoy it when woolnough presented but it has never been anywhere near as good since his sad passing .
-
I've been thinking, and the only possible reason I can think for getting rid of him now, as opposed to before the international break, is that they must've been using that time to negotiate with his successor.
The whole thing suggests Ellis Short has shown O'Neill no respect whatsoever, and has acted in a diabolical manner behind his manager's back.
Buy that man a drink.
-
I've been thinking, and the only possible reason I can think for getting rid of him now, as opposed to before the international break, is that they must've been using that time to negotiate with his successor.
The whole thing suggests Ellis Short has shown O'Neill no respect whatsoever, and has acted in a diabolical manner behind his manager's back.
Buy that man a drink.
New manager expected tomorrow which suggests you are correct.
-
(http://www.channel4.com/assets/programmes/images/my-name-is-earl/my-name-is-earl-20090526144523_625x352.jpg)
-
I agree with Eastie I think MON will become a TV pundit probably next season and for the BBC.
He tried and he failed. When he bought Johnson I got the feeling he was starting to lose the plot a bit.
Anyway I wish him well. He brought Aston Villa some success and respect and at times some excellent football.
Lambert has a long way to go to equal that.
-
I agree with Eastie I think MON will become a TV pundit probably next season and for the BBC.
He tried and he failed. When he bought Johnson I got the feeling he was starting to lose the plot a bit.
Anyway I wish him well. He brought Aston Villa some success and respect and at times some excellent football.
Lambert has a long way to go to equal that.
Same here. Even though he wasted a lot of money I still enjoyed his 3 or so years at Villa immensely. Wish we had a team as good as that now!
-
I know it's not nice to gloat. But
*gloats*
I think you've shot your bolt too early there Damon. I was looking forward to seeing him relegate them THEN getting the tin tack!
-
I won't comment too far as I started on a piece about this whole business for the next fanzine earlier.
All I will say is that the timing of the sacking is bonkers and avoid the media like the plague for the next week or so.
-
Dolly would be ideal then we can boo him, where is the fucker these days?
-
What makes me laugh is all these comments in the media and forums about John robertson as if he's some kind of tactical genius - i think O'Neills problem is he never changed his thinking with the game and remained too old school- he was stuck in the past and looked to have lost the hunger - doubt robertson would have made much difference apart from organising the bibs and cones.
-
I can't see MON getting another job in football management apart from Northern Ireland job. Look like he will have to hope BBC want him.
-
He's the wrong religion to manage Northern Ireland. Leicester and Forest both change manager more often than most Blue Noses change underwear so he'll end up at one of them. Or possibly the Republic of Ireland.
-
I can't see MON getting another job in football management apart from Northern Ireland job. Look like he will have to hope BBC want him.
Not sure he would see Northern Ireland as a challenge , the republic may be about to ditch trappatoni though and being a catholic managing them wouldn't be a problem for him .
Mons tv sports producer friend who got him the gigs at the bbc has now defected to itv and I wouldn't be surprised to see him popping up alongside Keane and southgate.
-
He wouldnt take the N Ireland job ,if offered, for the simple reason that they dont have the players.
It does seem stupid to sack any manager this late in the season as the new bloke doesnt have a chance.
However the Sunderland Chairman is called Ellis!
Anyway good luck to Mark Hughes in the Championship next season.
-
He's the wrong religion to manage Northern Ireland. Leicester and Forest both change manager more often than most Blue Noses change underwear so he'll end up at one of them. Or possibly the Republic of Ireland.
Haven't they got a catholic manager right now?
-
Fuck me the reporter on SSN is wearing a black tie.
-
He's the wrong religion to manage Northern Ireland. Leicester and Forest both change manager more often than most Blue Noses change underwear so he'll end up at one of them. Or possibly the Republic of Ireland.
Haven't they got a catholic manager right now?
Don't know. Off the top of my head I can't remember who their manager is and can't be arsed to Google it. I doubt they'll appoint a high-profile Catholic with Celtic links anyway, after the way they treated Neil Lennon.
It's a moot point anyway as they couldn't afford his exorbitant wages.
-
Ha ha. That's gotta hurt. I am delighted for him - naturally.
-
This from the Guardian's Daniel Taylor on what went wrong for our Martin:
"The difficult part is knowing what precisely has changed. One theory is that maybe the game has started to leave him behind and that his tactics have become outmoded. The immediate response to that is that he has previously demonstrated he possesses one of the sharpest minds in football."
Says it all really. He's never once demonstrated anything like "one of the sharpest minds in football", nothing like it. And yet they rush over what is the core of the problem with some glossy platitude to protect the stereotypical image of the man, for no reason. "Sharpest minds in football"? He's one of the most meat-and-potatoes managers we've ever had.
-
This is brilliant news.
There is actually no statistical evidence that swapping managers has any effect, so chances are they've just fucked themselves royally.
-
He's the wrong religion to manage Northern Ireland. Leicester and Forest both change manager more often than most Blue Noses change underwear so he'll end up at one of them. Or possibly the Republic of Ireland.
Haven't they got a catholic manager right now?
Don't know. Off the top of my head I can't remember who their manager is and can't be arsed to Google it. I doubt they'll appoint a high-profile Catholic with Celtic links anyway, after the way they treated Neil Lennon.
It's a moot point anyway as they couldn't afford his exorbitant wages.
You're right. I think they'd just about tolerate a catholic manager but not one with such a strong connection with Celtic.
-
I like the man. I am, however, disappointed that we don't get to see him taking Sunderland down.
-
Well, I must admit I'm surprised at this. Results at Sunderland have been poor but we know O'Neill sides hibernate throughout March anyway. I still expected them to start picking up again especially in games where you would write them off on paper.
Historically, one things fairly sure though. When O'Neill walks, for whatever reason - it's even been suggested players actually like playing for him - the team declines. Quickly. Celtic could be the exception but that league's just daft so it's hard to gauge.
Fingers crossed, this could be the get out of jail card we've been hoping for.
-
One things fairly sure though. When O'Neill walks, for whatever reason .. the team declines. Quickly.
Thats because he leaves clubs with a long list of overpaid underplayed overrated players on big long contracts.
-
Gutted. Never got the chance to tell him what I thought as I missed the Sunderland game last year. They must have someone lined up...
-
What makes me laugh is all these comments in the media and forums about John robertson as if he's some kind of tactical genius - i think O'Neills problem is he never changed his thinking with the game and remained too old school- he was stuck in the past and looked to have lost the hunger - doubt robertson would have made much difference apart from organising the bibs and cones.
Similar things were said about Peter Taylor, but Brian Clough was never as good a manager without him. Sometimes relationships just work well. I believe Robertson took a lot of pressure off O'Neill and gave him more time and freedom to not have to be hands-on managing 24/7. At Sunderland he didn't have that back-up, and I suspect it had a direct effect on his ability to do the job. Also, maybe Robertson didn't want to go there because he could see it was going to be a much more difficult job and a poisoned chalice. It's no secret O'Neill was a Sunderland fan and maybe he let his heart rule his head when he took the job, but Robertson had no similar interest in going there. I think he was pretty shrewd.
I do agree about O'Neill being set in his ways - you could see that had set in when he was with us.
-
Completely bizarre decision. Who will they get better than MON? Given another 200 million he could have got them upto 6th in a few seasons. And probably 6th again. And again. Not to be sniffed at IMO. I can't help feeling we're seeing history repeating itself this Easter with yet another messiah betrayed by those he trusted, but he will rise again, possibly in Div1. Until then, keep the faith....
-
Is this good or bad for us? I'm banking on Sunderland being the third relegated team. New man comes in galvanizes the players, could work for them, brave decision from their chairman, could see them sliding down, tried to do something about it.
-
This is brilliant news.
There is actually no statistical evidence that swapping managers has any effect, so chances are they've just fucked themselves royally.
To be fair there was quite a bit of evidence that O'Neill was doing an abysmal job there. And people thought that Southampton had stitched themselves up by sacking Adkins.
-
Is this good or bad for us? I'm banking on Sunderland being the third relegated team. New man comes in galvanizes the players, could work for them, brave decision from their chairman, could see them sliding down, tried to do something about it.
Good for Sunderland , bad for us i feel.
-
Is this good or bad for us? I'm banking on Sunderland being the third relegated team. New man comes in galvanizes the players, could work for them, brave decision from their chairman, could see them sliding down, tried to do something about it.
That's obviously what Sunderland are hoping for, but they've left it a bit late and this week they lost 2 of their most important players for the rest of the season. I thought the same thing when Redknapp joined QPR but even he hasn't been able to propel them to safety even though he's had far more time and was able to buy new players in January. Given Sunderland's run of games coming up I'd be surprised if even The Special One could stop the rot.
-
It's a shame he has been sacked. He was doing a great job at Sunderland for us this season.
-
Gutted. Never got the chance to tell him what I thought as I missed the Sunderland game last year. They must have someone lined up...
Peter Reid.
-
Looking at a few forums of other teams & it seems there's a lot of other fans who think he is over-rated.
-
Completely bizarre decision. Who will they get better than MON? Given another 200 million he could have got them upto 6th in a few seasons. And probably 6th again. And again. Not to be sniffed at IMO. I can't help feeling we're seeing history repeating itself this Easter with yet another messiah betrayed by those he trusted, but he will rise again, possibly in Div1. Until then, keep the faith....
,A man obsessed
Is a man possessed
By a demon
Your candle will burn out
Long before
His legend ever will.
-
The thing is, all MON had to do at Sunderland was avoid the sack and finish above a club with the sort of budget cuts in place that even Ian Duncan Smith would hesistate to implement, to restore his reputation somewhat. And he couldn't do it. No wonder he came after us for money. He probably realised it was the last significant pay off he'd get.
-
Odds seem to be tumbling on di canio .
-
bah would liked him to have been in charge when we played them in a few weeks time. Di canio could get them playing IMO as they have got some decent players. scoring goal
-
Di Canio would be an unmitigated disaster. Let's hope they appoint him.
-
Di Canio would be an unmitigated disaster. Let's hope they appoint him.
Loose cannon - could alienate players or get a positive response- would be a huge gamble - i think mclaren would be the safe bet.
-
Pat Murphy
BBC Radio 5 live football reporter
"It's a personal and professional blow for Martin O'Neill. In 20 years as a league manager, on either side of the border, with six clubs, he has never been sacked. He's a very, very proud man. This will hit him; this will cut him."
(http://i.ziare-pe-net.ro/upload/stiri/large/12/22/Img_33429_200_0.jpg)
-
You're a bad (but very funny) man, Mr Costello.
-
Pat Murphy
BBC Radio 5 live football reporter
"It's a personal and professional blow for Martin O'Neill. In 20 years as a league manager, on either side of the border, with six clubs, he has never been sacked. He's a very, very proud man. This will hit him; this will cut him."
(http://i.ziare-pe-net.ro/upload/stiri/large/12/22/Img_33429_200_0.jpg)
HAHAHAGAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!11111111111111111
-
The thing is, all MON had to do at Sunderland was avoid the sack and finish above a club with the sort of budget cuts in place that even Ian Duncan Smith would hesistate to implement, to restore his reputation somewhat. And he couldn't do it. No wonder he came after us for money. He probably realised it was the last significant pay off he'd get.
Sounds about right.
-
Oh well bad luck M'ON bit annoying in that we need Sunderland on a downward spiral.
-
Skybet Next Permanent Sunderland Manager
Steve McClaren 5/2
Paolo Di Canio 4/1
Mark Hughes 5/1
Ole Gunnar Solskjær 7/1
Roberto Di Matteo 9/1
Gus Poyet 12/1
Brian McDermott 14/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 20/1
Alex McLeish 28/1
Alan Curbishley 40/1
David Moyes 40/1
Terry Butcher 50/1
same crap pot
-
Sad as it is, I'm almost tempted to watch Sunday Supplement on Sky just to see the probable outrage about this.
There wasn't any
-
Well If we pick up 3 pts today . Sunderland will be doomed anyway . They have a bloody hard run .
-
Skybet Next Permanent Sunderland Manager
Steve McClaren 5/2
Paolo Di Canio 4/1
Mark Hughes 5/1
Ole Gunnar Solskjær 7/1
Roberto Di Matteo 9/1
Gus Poyet 12/1
Brian McDermott 14/1
Sven Goran Eriksson 20/1
Alex McLeish 28/1
Alan Curbishley 40/1
David Moyes 40/1
Terry Butcher 50/1
same crap pot
Yep. Butcher I mean he was there 20 years ago and was shit
-
It's interesting that among all these Sunderland fan's threads not once does it remark that Villa fans had predicted his reign at Sunderland and how much of a one-trick pony he really was. One thing that struck me when I went up to Sunderland in October was that they were genuinely surprised - the ones that spoke to me going to and coming from the ground - that Villa fans weren't overwhemingly still supporters of O'Neill.
-
It's interesting that among all these Sunderland fan's threads not once does it remark that Villa fans had predicted his reign at Sunderland and how much of a one-trick pony he really was. One thing that struck me when I went up to Sunderland in October was that they were genuinely surprised - the ones that spoke to me going to and coming from the ground - that Villa fans weren't overwhemingly still supporters of O'Neill.
Press perspective init. General view put about by the media that we were in love with him and that Lerner had dropped a major ricket in not caving in to his demands and begging him to stay. Plus if its not your club you tend to see things purely in where they're finishing and not the performances or the price paid in the long run
-
Di Canio travelling up for talks according to Sky.
-
Di Canio travelling up for talks according to Sky.
Better than Schteeve the wally with the brolly McClaren imho, but underwhelming to say the least .......... :(
-
It's worth a risk imo. A wildcard manager like Di Canio could fire Sunderland to a win or two whereas Hughes or Curbishley would be safety first and try to draw their way to safety which with your fixtures left wouldn't be enough.
-
Listening to the Press Pass on Talksport (I know, I know) and the journos on that are giving him a right kicking. One of them is saying a lot of the same things us and some Sunderland fans say about him. A nice refreshing change from the likes of Murphy and Holt.
EDIT: One of the journos on it is noted 'Monette' Paddy Barclay. :o
-
I'm listening to it aswell and Barclay is on there!
-
If Sunderland do go down , I dont think we could do any worse than get Lee Cattermole , better than that El Ahmadi
, we need some bite and leadership in midfield.
-
Whether successful or not, it's a shame if Di Nazio takes over. Sunderland are a likeable enough club with genuine fans but, yet again, it appears they are about to appoint a loathsome manager so I'll have to hate them till he leaves.
Would much rather he ended up at some bunch of bastards like Leeds or Small Heath. I only have so much hate to give.
That's it. I'm afraid I can no longer be arsed to hate West Ham. Sorry everyone.
-
If Sunderland do go down , I dont think we could do any worse than get Lee Cattermole , better than that El Ahmadi
, we need some bite and leadership in midfield.
I'd agree apart from the fact he seems injury prone - if fit then a quality player but he's played little in the last 2 years.
-
Going from O'Neill to Di Canio is like having your grandma round for tea on Easter Sunday, then going out clubbing with your cocaine addict cousin.
As many of you no doubt are...
-
I agree with Eastie I think MON will become a TV pundit probably next season and for the BBC.
His best mate left Head of Sport at the BBC to take up a similar role at ITV.
I can see him going to Leeds in the summer.
-
leeds is a good call. His ego will not allow him to stop on the back of being sacked.
-
leeds is a good call. His ego will not allow him to stop on the back of being sacked.
Cant see him being interested in managing in the lower divisions - if moyes goes from everton as expected then mon may throw his hat in the ring , but I think at 61 he probably won't manage at club level again .
The republic job may appeal to him .
-
I can't see him managing again.
Maybe Norn Iron but it's a long shot for them to qualify for a major tournament anytime soon.
-
Leeds is the sort of challenge he could look like tge dogs nuts on before retirement though.
-
Or back to Celtic when Lennon gets a job in England
-
Nah, Celtic have been responsible with their money post-MON. Last thing they would do is undermine their current sustainable model with a dinosaur like Pubehead.
-
I know a lot of Celtic fans who reckon he left them in the shit.
-
Can't see MON going to N.I. or Celtic.
The PdiC option is not good - he may well give them the passion to get through the relegation threat. Schteeve would be a much better choice ;D
-
Whether successful or not, it's a shame if Di Nazio takes over. Sunderland are a likeable enough club with genuine fans but, yet again, it appears they are about to appoint a loathsome manager so I'll have to hate them till he leaves.
Would much rather he ended up at some bunch of bastards like Leeds or Small Heath. I only have so much hate to give.
That's it. I'm afraid I can no longer be arsed to hate West Ham. Sorry everyone.
Di Nazio. Snigger
-
I wonder about Di Canio. I think it is either going to be a massive success or a monumental disaster. It won't be something in between. Short has taken a gamble.
I also wonder how long Sunderland have been tapping him up before giving O'Neill the bullet. Such a shame Martin was treated like a c*** by them. Not.
-
Di Canio in the short term might work, although their next 3 games are tough and the bounce you get from a new manager may have worn off by the time they have some winnable matches.
Long term , Di Canio would be a disaster and they would probably be in the same position next season (managerless and in the shit)
-
I wonder about Di Canio. I think it is either going to be a massive success or a monumental disaster. It won't be something in between. Short has taken a gamble.
I also wonder how long Sunderland have been tapping him up before giving O'Neill the bullet. Such a shame Martin was treated like a c*** by them. Not.
Like when MON agreed to take the WHU job behind Avram Grant's back (I think), and then he backed out when Gold leaked it to the media before it happened and MON feared his image looked bad. And pulled the plug. Allegedly.
-
Is Di Canio confusing Sunderland with the Sudetenland?
-
Is Di Canio confusing Sunderland with the Sudetenland?
Ha ha ha, excellent
-
Like when MON agreed to take the WHU job behind Avram Grant's back (I think), and then he backed out when Gold leaked it to the media before it happened and MON feared his image looked bad. And pulled the plug. Allegedly.
I'd forgotten about that. Considering the general schadenfreude on display when most public figures fall from grace, I'm surprised how much support MON still has. Unless his knowledge of the law prevents his detractors from going public.
-
The thing is if short was going to sack mon why not do it during the 2 week break , I can't see why he waited until now to do it .
-
How have likes of Oliver Holt and Henry Winter spun this today in their papers?
-
How have likes of Oliver Holt and Henry Winter spun this today in their papers?
Suspect the news broke too late last night for any comments in today's newspapers.
-
Is Di Canio confusing Sunderland with the Sudetenland?
Very good!
-
Di Canio officially a Mackem. Anything must therefore be possible. What will he do with Titus Bramble?.,
-
Di Canio officially a Mackem. Anything must therefore be possible. What will he do with Titus Bramble?.,
Free transfer ...... i've seen roundabouts smaller than him.
Paolo Di Canio signs deal on Wearside.
Sunderland AFC have today announced the appointment of Paolo Di Canio as Head Coach.
The 44 year-old has agreed a two and a half year deal on Wearside and will take charge of the Black Cats from tomorrow (Monday).
Di Canio entered football management in 2011, taking charge of Swindon Town. During his tenure he guided the Robins to promotion and a Wembley final.
As a player he made more than 500 appearances, scoring over 100 goals. Beginning his career in his native Italy, he played for top sides Lazio, Juventus, Napoli and AC Milan before making a move to Celtic.
This was followed by stints in the Premier League with Sheffield Wednesday, West Ham and Charlton. During his time in English football he scored in excess of 60 goals.
Chairman Ellis Short said: “Paolo is hugely enthused by the challenge that lies ahead of him. He is passionate, driven and raring to get started.
“The sole focus of everyone for the next seven games will be to ensure we gain enough points to maintain our top-flight status.
“I think that the chances of that are greatly increased with Paolo joining us.
“Our fans have shown tremendous patience and understanding this season. They have continued to back the team in huge numbers, both home and away, and that is something that continues to inspire all of us in our drive to give them the successful club they deserve.
“That remains our primary aim.”
http://www.safc.com/news/club-news/2013 ... -confirmed
-
It's a bold appointment.
-
I'm hoping that completely blows up.
-
Me too as we need as many teams down the bottom as possible to help us stay up !!
-
I'm hoping that completely blows up.
Off to a good start for you then!
http://davidmiliband.net/2013/03/statement-on-sunderland-afc-role/
David Miliband Member of Parliament for South Shields .......
Statement on Sunderland AFC role
March 31st, 2013
David Miliband said: “I wish Sunderland AFC all success in the future. It is a great institution that does a huge amount for the North East and I wish the team very well over the next vital seven games. However, in the light of the new manager’s past political statements, I think it right to step down.”
-
What do you make of appointing Di Canio Davey?
-
What do you make of appointing Di Canio Davey?
See page 164.
-
What do you make of appointing Di Canio Davey?
Underwhelmed to say the least. Relieved it isn't McClaren, i was prepared to stay away as long as he had the job, had he been given it. Di Canio will bring a spark, revitalize enthusiasm around the place and i'll back him as best i can, but i'm geniunelly disappointed in what is happening up here at the present time. I think we have just pissed a golden opportunity up the wall to be honest. Very, very, downhearted and disappointed.
-
He's going to give a lifetime of quotes, hand and facial gestures in the space of a few weeks. I don't know what's made him qualified to be a PL manager let alone one looking to stop an alarming slide into relegation. He's highly volatile with questionable methods, with a political position sure to alienate fans and players.
As a Villa fan I am fully in support of this appointment.
-
Respect to Miliband for wanting nothing to do with the fascist. Can't fault him there.
-
I don't see how this appointment can 'blow up' TBH. Yes, they might go down, but MON was on course to take them down anyway. So it is a nothing to lose option. They probably also believe that if the worst happens, Di Canio is the man to bring them straight back up.
-
Despite your disappointment Davey, your optimism still shines through, sometimes you're a breath of fresh air. A lot of us down here feel we have had the season from hell despite the optimism some of us felt at the start of the season. I just wish I could feel as positive as you sometimes do but, it just aint happening for me, hard as I try.
I've no axe to grind with Sunderland and now MON has been consigned to the shit bin it's time to move on.
-
He might just keep them up, you never know, but that is a recipe for disaster longer term. Dear me...
-
Despite your disappointment Davey, your optimism still shines through, sometimes you're a breath of fresh air. A lot of us down here feel we have had the season from hell despite the optimism some of us felt at the start of the season. I just wish I could feel as positive as you sometimes do but, it just aint happening for me, hard as I try.
I've no axe to grind with Sunderland and now MON has been consigned to the shit bin it's time to move on.
Thanks for the kind words Dave, but i swear mate, i don't feel positive at all anymore, in fact far from it. I think i'm still in shock to be honest. Did not see this coming at the time it did. Thought we would have seen the season out at least. Maybe this is Short's hard nosed business man's shock type tactic in letting our personnel know they aren't here to get an easy ride. I just don't know mate, i really don't!
-
Well, we live in interesting times.
-
I think this new TV deal is a big factor in why Chairmen have become more desperate than ever in their decision making. Nobody wants to miss out.
-
;)
-
I have no problem with Sunderland, have very good friends who are top supporters - I hope we both get out of the mire.
But Di Canio? Sweet Jesus on a motorcycle...
-
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in MON's house tonite. One thing for your chairman to feel they're better off without you, but to then call for the Italian Roy Keane. oh the humiliation.....
-
www.readytogo.net/smb is the place to be tonight.
What a stunning appointment.
-
www.readytogo.net/smb is the place to be tonight.
What a stunning appointment.
"I've been as O'Neill out as anyone.
I don't want us to sack a good man, hire a fascist and go down. That would just be poetically awful"
HEH
-
What a strange appointment
-
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sunderland-Against-Fascist-Di-Canio/168744003282890
-
I'm hoping that completely blows up.
Off to a good start for you then!
http://davidmiliband.net/2013/03/statement-on-sunderland-afc-role/
David Miliband Member of Parliament for South Shields .......
Statement on Sunderland AFC role
March 31st, 2013
David Miliband said: “I wish Sunderland AFC all success in the future. It is a great institution that does a huge amount for the North East and I wish the team very well over the next vital seven games. However, in the light of the new manager’s past political statements, I think it right to step down.”
Well done Dave Miliband. Whether they stay up or not, Sunderland is a famous old club with a good support and deserve better than that Mussoliniite wanker.
-
A bit suprised by the reaction on their forum. Thought it would be more positive. I wonder if Villans would be as principled in the same situation? Personally, I'd give Stalin a chance if I thought he would keep us up.
-
I would rather Ellis, DOL and MON went all threesome to create a love child and for him / her to be our new manager than we employ an utter right wing piece of shit like Sunderand have. He is a self serving, nasty piece of work and he will relegate them.
-
It's a bold appointment.
True but its a worrying appointment , it could keep them up.
-
I would rather Ellis, DOL and MON went all threesome to create a love child and for him / her to be our new manager than we employ an utter right wing piece of shit like Sunderand have. He is a self serving, nasty piece of work and he will relegate them.
that's the problem with this site, people just mince their words and won't come out with what they truly think
-
One thing for sure - if anyone can get the best out of Adam Johnson its Paulo di canio - he knows all about the right wing!
-
One thing for sure - if anyone can get the best out of Adam Johnson its Paula di canio - he knows all about the right wing!
Buggered if you are on the left though
-
I fucking hate fascists - he was a fine player by all accounts - but would never want him at Villa.
He may just keep them up mind.
-
It really is a gamble. I'm worried rafa will play into his hands with a bizarre team selection next weekend. But it could be a disaster for them and make our and wigan's job much easier
-
It really is a gamble. I'm worried rafa will play into his hands with a bizarre team selection next weekend. But it could be a disaster for them and make our and wigan's job much easier
Dont write off qpr - they could be within a point of us by the weekend - i expect them to beat Fulham and Wigan this week .
We need to go to stoke and go for a win in my opinion .
-
I am not sure what to make of this.
I suppose the beat way to decide is whether you would want him here and I categorically do not, as I think we would go down.
-
It's a brave move. It might give them a lift and a bit more urgency at first but whether they've got enough fire power up front is another thing.
-
I suppose the beat way to decide is whether you would want him here and I categorically do not, as I think we would go down.
I think the better way to decide is whether you think he is more or less likely to keep them up than O'Neill.
And I think he is more likely to give them enough of a bounce to get the couple of results that they need, ergo this is a bad thing for us.
-
I suppose the beat way to decide is whether you would want him here and I categorically do not, as I think we would go down.
I think the better way to decide is whether you think he is more or less likely to keep them up than O'Neill.
And I think he is more likely to give them enough of a bounce to get the couple of results that they need, ergo this is a bad thing for us.
Agree, I thought mon was taking them down without doubt , but now who knows what reaction di canio will get - they have more chance now in my opinion.
-
Good or bad for Sunderland its still funneh
"Sorry Martin, but we're going to have to let you go. On reflection we think a fascist nutjob who fights with his players during games probably has a better chance of keeping us up."
-
Like Sunderland, don't like Di Canio but I'm worried that his OTT antics will fire up their mediocre squad. They were sliding into the drop, probably a gamble worth taking for Short.
-
If I were Ellis Short and compiling a list of possible ways to stop Sunderland's decline, hiring a right wing nut job from League One wouldn't be anywhere near the top.
-
Di canio`s politics are immaterial, its his effect on Sunderland i worry about, under MON i think they were in serious trouble, definitely on the slide, but Di canio`s appointment is shit or bust for `em, one things for sure, it will change their mindset and we could have done with that staying as it was.
-
Sacking O'Neill and appointing Di Canio at this stage of the season reflects the desperation Sunderland find themselves in given their current form and run-in. Di Canio has passion without a doubt but it's a huge gamble which hopefully will fail to produce any improvement in their fortunes.
-
If he can get the likes of Bramble and Bardsley playing tiki-taka then fair play to him.
At least we will have the consolation prize of giving him stick over his antics after the Swindon cup game.
-
Just saw a scathing piece on Sky news about DiCanio from Kevin Maguire - this looks like it might turn into a bit of a meeja circus with Miliband's resignation
-
After his antics at the end of the game at Swindon in October I hope we pwn that fascist's ass when he comes to Villa Park.
-
I don't remember his antics after the Villa game, what did he do?
-
If I remember rightly he ran onto the pitch, pointed at Swindon's fans and pointed upwards, then gestured towards the Villa end and pointed downwards. Then just to make sure everyone saw what he was doing he repeated the routine. Afterwards he claimed he was bigging up the Swindon fans rather than putting down the Villa.
-
Good or bad for Sunderland its still funneh
"Sorry Martin, but we're going to have to let you go. On reflection we think a fascist nutjob who fights with his players during games probably has a better chance of keeping us up."
LOL
-
Seems mon gave Ellis short his word that he would work hard to improve things after the defeat at qpr had left his chairman furious - but then rather than working away on the training ground mon wasnt seen for several days until turning up on Thursday for a training session - according to reports that was the final straw for short.
Cloughie was good enough to turn up now and again for a training session and get away with it but mon is no Brian clough!
-
Shock news:
Ellis Short has announced a change in Sunderland branding.
With immediate effect, the team will play in all-black kit and the club nickname - Black Cats - will become the Black Shirts.
Read more here (http://www.paulosblackshirtrevolution.com)
-
Shock news:
Ellis Short has announced a change in Sunderland branding.
With immediate effect, the team will play in all-black kit and the club nickname - Black Cats - will become the Black Shirts.
Read more here (http://www.paulosblackshirtrevolution.com)
No point playing April fools joke after midday mr E !
-
Good or bad for Sunderland its still funneh
"Sorry Martin, but we're going to have to let you go. On reflection we think a fascist nutjob who fights with his players during games probably has a better chance of keeping us up."
LOL
I am stricken with manflu today, rather miserable, but that has just made me laugh aloud.
-
Some of the stuff on the RTG forum is really bad. Anyone with concerns about their new managers politics is called 'a mag' and considered some sort of mad leftie. Meanwhile Sunderland say:-
Published: 01 April, 2013
by Sunderland AFC
Official statement from Sunderland AFC.
Sunderland AFC and Head Coach Paolo Di Canio have issued the following statement in response to comments made by certain sections of the media and other individuals since his appointment was announced yesterday.
Paolo spoke passionately and honestly regarding the inaccurate portrayal of his beliefs and values from some quarters. He said: “Something can happen many years ago but what counts is the facts. My life speaks for me. Of course it hurts me because people try to take your dignity and that is not fair.
“I believe in my pillars and I have values. What offends me more than anything is not because they touch me; they touch what my parents gave to me; the values they gave to me. This is not acceptable.
“What I can say is that if someone is hurt, I am sorry. But this didn’t come from me, it came from a big story that people put out in a different way to what it was.
“I never have a problem in my past. I expressed an opinion in an interview many years ago. Some pieces were taken for media convenience. They took my expression in a very, very negative way – but it was a long conversation and a long interview. It was not fair. I know it is a part of my job to do interviews because I am well-known, but sometimes it suits their purpose to put big headlines and a big story.
“I don’t have a problem with anyone. I haven’t had a problem in the past and I don’t know why I have to keep repeating my story, to be defending myself on something that doesn’t belong to me every time I change clubs. Talk about racism? That is absolutely stupid, stupid and ridiculous. The people who know me can change that idea quickly. When I was in England my best friends were Trevor Sinclair and Chris Powell, the Charlton manager – they can tell you everything about my character.
“I don’t want to talk about politics because it’s not my area. We are not in the Houses of Parliament, we are in a football club. I want to talk about sport. I want to talk about football, my players, the Board and the fans. My first priority is my family and my daughters, that’s obvious, and secondly to have the responsibility for thousands of people. This is my priority and I want to be focused on this aspect. I don’t want to talk any more about politics – I am not a politics person.”
CEO Margaret Byrne said: “Sunderland AFC is a traditional football club, with a rich and proud history. It has a strong ethos and ethics and that has not changed in any shape or form.
“Naturally it’s been very disappointing to read some of the reaction to Paolo’s appointment in the last 24 hours. Anyone who has met Paolo and spoken with him personally, as we did in depth before making this appointment, will know that he is an honest man, a man of principle and a driven, determined and passionate individual. To accuse him now, as some have done, of being a racist or having fascist sympathies, is insulting not only to him but to the integrity of this football club.
“Paolo has spoken emotively and at length in order to clarify some of the misconceptions that surround him and historical comments and actions attributed to him in the past.
“My role and that of the Board is to act in the best interests of this club at all times and in appointing Paolo Di Canio we feel we have done just that. It is disappointing that some people are trying to turn the appointment of a head coach into a political circus.
“We are a football club and now want to allow Paolo and the team to focus on the rest of the season.”
Neither Sunderland AFC, nor Paolo Di Canio, will make any further comment on this matter.
-
I'm not a racist but it doesn't matter anyway. God forbid he ever comes near us.
-
-
At least he will make the training run on time.
-
I'm pretty sure that at least one meths drinking, self-trepanned, goat botherer* wanted him here.
Apologies to all you goat botherers who didn't want him here.
*this at least lets Risso off the hook, who only wanted Roy Keane.
-
I'm pretty sure that at least one meths drinking, self-trepanned, goat botherer* wanted him here.
Apologies to all you goat botherers who didn't want him here.
*this at least lets Risso off the hook, who only wanted Roy Keane.
Think you are being a bit harsh on risso there RR ;)
-
I have a couple of acquaintances who are different colour/race from me so how can I be ever considered a fascist? And that salute I was just trying to point out the error in Malinga's bowling action!
-
I suppose for now that Sunderland only care about staying up this season. But whenever Di Canio's name has cropped up on here I have always said whoever employs him, it will end in tears sooner rather than later. Also, I am far from convinced his personality and man management style will work on PL players.
-
While I don't think he'll be a particularly good long term appointment (by virtue of the fact that hes completely mental) I'm really worried that he'll be able to bollock his players into getting enough results to get over the line.
In fact, given O'Neill's tactical shortcomings and the way he teams cant play past march, I would've been happier if he'd stayed put
-
I think it will end in tears too.
Hanging from a meathook outside an Esso petrol station overlooking the Wear.
-
At least he will make the training run on time.
It's a cracker!
-
So, a day after O'Neill gets the boot, Warnock looks let to leave Dirty Leeds.
Hmmm...
Worst of luck at Deadend Road Martin!
-
@BroadcastMoose: O'Neill back to Leicester is already being rumoured - next few days could be interesting
-
Interesting, I can see that happening too. Leicester have been on a dire run haven't they?
Plus, when BroadcastMoose speaks, you have to take notice.
-
Theres also this:
@indykaila: #Leicester officials will meet Nigel Pearson tomorrow morning. Certain players have express their concerns on the mood of the camp. #LCFC
-
Theres also this:
@indykaila: #Leicester officials will meet Nigel Pearson tomorrow morning. Certain players have express their concerns on the mood of the camp. #LCFC
I don't know what it is, but I've always thought Person comes across as a bit of a bellend.
-
Cant see mon going to leicester or Leeds - the only job i could see him looking at in club football is everton and I'm not sure kenwright would want him .
-
Theres also this:
@indykaila: #Leicester officials will meet Nigel Pearson tomorrow morning. Certain players have express their concerns on the mood of the camp. #LCFC
I don't know what it is, but I've always thought Person comes across as a bit of a bellend.
Agreed, he makes out he knows more than he really does.
-
Seems mon gave Ellis short his word that he would work hard to improve things after the defeat at qpr had left his chairman furious - but then rather than working away on the training ground mon wasnt seen for several days until turning up on Thursday for a training session - according to reports that was the final straw for short.
Cloughie was good enough to turn up now and again for a training session and get away with it but mon is no Brian clough!
Indeed Eastie as Lloyd Bentsen said to micro fuckwit Dan Quayle in 1988 Presidential Election. '....Senator - you are No Jack Kennedy...'
-
Cant see mon going to leicester or Leeds - the only job i could see him looking at in club football is everton and I'm not sure kenwright would want him .
Moyes going anywhere?
-
Cant see mon going to leicester or Leeds - the only job i could see him looking at in club football is everton and I'm not sure kenwright would want him .
Moyes going anywhere?
He's about to leave due to a lack of funds.
Every season.
-
Dave Hopper the General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association is writing to Sunderland Football Club to demand the return of the Wearmouth Miners' Banner, which is on permanent display in the Stadium of Light, in protest at the decision to appoint the self-confessed fascist, Paolo Di Canio, as their head coach.
Mr Hopper, who worked for 27 years as a miner at Wearmouth Colliery, the site on which the Stadium of Light now stands, described Di Canio's appointment as an outrage and a betrayal of all those who fought and died fighting fascism.
He said,"I like many thousands of miners have supported Sunderland from infancy and are passionate about football. But, there are principles which are much more important.
"Our banner represents the Durham miners' long struggle for the rights of the working class, rights which were annihilated by fascism in Germany, Italy, Spain and Chile.
"We have a sacred obligation to the millions who were wiped out by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco to oppose fascism wherever and in whatever context this evil creed raises its head particularly at a time when working people are again being forced to pay for capitalism's crisis as they were in Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
"The appointment of Di Canio is a disgrace and a betrayal of all who fought and died in the fight against fascism.
"Everyone must speak out an oppose this outrage and call on Ellis Short and the Sunderland Board to reverse their decision."
-
I really think this appointment at Sunderland is going to go sour.
-
His appointment has even made the news on the radio out here.
-
Dave Hopper the General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association is writing to Sunderland Football Club to demand the return of the Wearmouth Miners' Banner, which is on permanent display in the Stadium of Light, in protest at the decision to appoint the self-confessed fascist, Paolo Di Canio, as their head coach.
Mr Hopper, who worked for 27 years as a miner at Wearmouth Colliery, the site on which the Stadium of Light now stands, described Di Canio's appointment as an outrage and a betrayal of all those who fought and died fighting fascism.
He said,"I like many thousands of miners have supported Sunderland from infancy and are passionate about football. But, there are principles which are much more important.
"Our banner represents the Durham miners' long struggle for the rights of the working class, rights which were annihilated by fascism in Germany, Italy, Spain and Chile.
"We have a sacred obligation to the millions who were wiped out by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco to oppose fascism wherever and in whatever context this evil creed raises its head particularly at a time when working people are again being forced to pay for capitalism's crisis as they were in Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
"The appointment of Di Canio is a disgrace and a betrayal of all who fought and died in the fight against fascism.
"Everyone must speak out an oppose this outrage and call on Ellis Short and the Sunderland Board to reverse their decision."
Were these same minors so offended when one of their players tweeted about his support for the IRA?
-
Dave Hopper the General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association is writing to Sunderland Football Club to demand the return of the Wearmouth Miners' Banner, which is on permanent display in the Stadium of Light, in protest at the decision to appoint the self-confessed fascist, Paolo Di Canio, as their head coach.
Mr Hopper, who worked for 27 years as a miner at Wearmouth Colliery, the site on which the Stadium of Light now stands, described Di Canio's appointment as an outrage and a betrayal of all those who fought and died fighting fascism.
He said,"I like many thousands of miners have supported Sunderland from infancy and are passionate about football. But, there are principles which are much more important.
"Our banner represents the Durham miners' long struggle for the rights of the working class, rights which were annihilated by fascism in Germany, Italy, Spain and Chile.
"We have a sacred obligation to the millions who were wiped out by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco to oppose fascism wherever and in whatever context this evil creed raises its head particularly at a time when working people are again being forced to pay for capitalism's crisis as they were in Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
"The appointment of Di Canio is a disgrace and a betrayal of all who fought and died in the fight against fascism.
"Everyone must speak out an oppose this outrage and call on Ellis Short and the Sunderland Board to reverse their decision."
Were these same minors so offended when one of their players tweeted about his support for the IRA?
The IRA were socialists so no ideological conflict there (!)
-
http://safc.com/news/team-news/2013/april/free-video-di-canio-interview
-
Dave Hopper the General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association is writing to Sunderland Football Club to demand the return of the Wearmouth Miners' Banner, which is on permanent display in the Stadium of Light, in protest at the decision to appoint the self-confessed fascist, Paolo Di Canio, as their head coach.
Mr Hopper, who worked for 27 years as a miner at Wearmouth Colliery, the site on which the Stadium of Light now stands, described Di Canio's appointment as an outrage and a betrayal of all those who fought and died fighting fascism.
He said,"I like many thousands of miners have supported Sunderland from infancy and are passionate about football. But, there are principles which are much more important.
"Our banner represents the Durham miners' long struggle for the rights of the working class, rights which were annihilated by fascism in Germany, Italy, Spain and Chile.
"We have a sacred obligation to the millions who were wiped out by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco to oppose fascism wherever and in whatever context this evil creed raises its head particularly at a time when working people are again being forced to pay for capitalism's crisis as they were in Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
"The appointment of Di Canio is a disgrace and a betrayal of all who fought and died in the fight against fascism.
"Everyone must speak out an oppose this outrage and call on Ellis Short and the Sunderland Board to reverse their decision."
Were these same minors so offended when one of their players tweeted about his support for the IRA?
The IRA were socialists so no ideological conflict there (!)
The IRA were/are terrorists who killed 21 of my fellow Brummies and injured another 178.
-
Dave Hopper the General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association is writing to Sunderland Football Club to demand the return of the Wearmouth Miners' Banner, which is on permanent display in the Stadium of Light, in protest at the decision to appoint the self-confessed fascist, Paolo Di Canio, as their head coach.
Mr Hopper, who worked for 27 years as a miner at Wearmouth Colliery, the site on which the Stadium of Light now stands, described Di Canio's appointment as an outrage and a betrayal of all those who fought and died fighting fascism.
He said,"I like many thousands of miners have supported Sunderland from infancy and are passionate about football. But, there are principles which are much more important.
"Our banner represents the Durham miners' long struggle for the rights of the working class, rights which were annihilated by fascism in Germany, Italy, Spain and Chile.
"We have a sacred obligation to the millions who were wiped out by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco to oppose fascism wherever and in whatever context this evil creed raises its head particularly at a time when working people are again being forced to pay for capitalism's crisis as they were in Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
"The appointment of Di Canio is a disgrace and a betrayal of all who fought and died in the fight against fascism.
"Everyone must speak out an oppose this outrage and call on Ellis Short and the Sunderland Board to reverse their decision."
Were these same minors so offended when one of their players tweeted about his support for the IRA?
You on about McLean? I heard he chose not to wear a poppy which is, in my opinion, entirely up to him.
I've not heard him say he supports the IRA, got a link?
-
McClean had already irritated O’Neill by re-opening his Twitter account earlier this year, despite repeated warnings not to do so, and has now breached club rules regarding the use of social networking sites for the third time in 18 months.
The Republic of Ireland international from Derry, who rejected the chance to play for Northern Ireland and refused to wear a poppy on his Sunderland shirt to commemorate Remembrance Day, professed his love on Twitter last week for the song, The Broad Black Brimmer.
The song is about a boy whose father is killed fighting for the IRA and is a reference to the wide-brimmed hats worn by IRA members during the Irish War of Independence in the 1920s.
The 23-year-old’s problems are not confined to misguided use of the internet as he has also become isolated at the training ground.
Telegraph Sport understands McClean has annoyed team-mates with his attitude in training and is in danger of becoming ostracised. Coaching staff have noted his aloofness and O’Neill is wary of rifts growing. Unless there is a marked improvement between now and the end of the season, McClean is likely to be sold in the summer.
-
The Ulster paramilitaries are racists in as much as they control the neighbourhoods and derive income from illegal activities. INLA were more socialist.
-
Sounds like a song written during a Civil War, doesn't suggest he supports terrorism to me.
-
Hold it right there. One more Northern Ireland post and this thread gets locked.
-
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/local/all-news/sunderland-s-james-mcclean-shuts-down-twitter-account-after-ira-row-1-5452025
The fella should keep his opinions to himself as it is offensive to some.
-
I have a nasty feeling that the controversy of appointing di canio will create a siege mentality.
It really isn't too late for Sunderland to swoop for Terry Connor.
-
http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/local/all-news/sunderland-s-james-mcclean-shuts-down-twitter-account-after-ira-row-1-5452025
The fella should keep his opinions to himself as it is offensive to some.
You just couldn't stop yourself could you, so i've done it for you.
-
There should be a variation on Godwin's Law just for H&V.
Godber's Law, maybe
-
What does every discussion on here come down to though? Northern Ireland? Scat Porn? Fish Puns?
-
Dave Hopper the General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association is writing to Sunderland Football Club to demand the return of the Wearmouth Miners' Banner, which is on permanent display in the Stadium of Light, in protest at the decision to appoint the self-confessed fascist, Paolo Di Canio, as their head coach.
Mr Hopper, who worked for 27 years as a miner at Wearmouth Colliery, the site on which the Stadium of Light now stands, described Di Canio's appointment as an outrage and a betrayal of all those who fought and died fighting fascism.
He said,"I like many thousands of miners have supported Sunderland from infancy and are passionate about football. But, there are principles which are much more important.
"Our banner represents the Durham miners' long struggle for the rights of the working class, rights which were annihilated by fascism in Germany, Italy, Spain and Chile.
"We have a sacred obligation to the millions who were wiped out by Hitler, Mussolini and Franco to oppose fascism wherever and in whatever context this evil creed raises its head particularly at a time when working people are again being forced to pay for capitalism's crisis as they were in Europe in the 1920s and 30s.
"The appointment of Di Canio is a disgrace and a betrayal of all who fought and died in the fight against fascism.
"Everyone must speak out an oppose this outrage and call on Ellis Short and the Sunderland Board to reverse their decision."
Were these same minors so offended when one of their players tweeted about his support for the IRA?
Don't bring the kids into it
-
I'd love to debate the size of Spurs' wage bill, or the comparative merits of owls and gibbons.
-
Holocaust denial, Rangers and Celtic, irrelevant references to the pub bombings and sticking up for Steve H0dge.
Don't go there, kids.
-
Back on track please children.
-
I wish Martin O'Neill all the beat and hope he can make do on his £73 JSA.
-
DiCanio is like Holloway. All very amusing until your club is involved and then it stops being funny.
Hopefully his appointment and Sunderlands problem players make for a very unpleasant collapse that takes them down.
Not that I have anything against Sunderland , good club who deserve better, hopefully if they go down they will be well rid of manager and problem players.
-
I'm glad he's finally been sacked. The myth has ceased.
-
Back on track please children.
Martin O'Neill is a wanker. Is that better?
-
DiCanio is like Holloway. All very amusing until your club is involved and then it stops being funny.
Hopefully his appointment and Sunderlands problem players make for a very unpleasant collapse that takes them down.
Not that I have anything against Sunderland , good club who deserve better, hopefully if they go down they will be well rid of manager and problem players.
I think behind the jokes Holloway is a very astute manager. With Di Canio we have already seen the difference in the attention paid to his views now he is in the PL. Behaviour that is seen as quirky and good box office at a small League One club can quickly make your position untenable in the top flight. He was manhandling his players when Swindon were doing well so how will he deal with the pressure of a relegation battle?
-
Im wondering how astute Palace fans think Golloway is at the moment, he took over a favourite for automatic promotion not that long ago
-
DiCanio is like Holloway. All very amusing until your club is involved and then it stops being funny.
Hopefully his appointment and Sunderlands problem players make for a very unpleasant collapse that takes them down.
Not that I have anything against Sunderland , good club who deserve better, hopefully if they go down they will be well rid of manager and problem players.
I think behind the jokes Holloway is a very astute manager. With Di Canio we have already seen the difference in the attention paid to his views now he is in the PL. Behaviour that is seen as quirky and good box office at a small League One club can quickly make your position untenable in the top flight. He was manhandling his players when Swindon were doing well so how will he deal with the pressure of a relegation battle?
Reminds me of the incident when Beelzebub cuffed his reserve goalie around the ear for smirking out of context on the subs' bench.
-
Back on track please children.
Martin O'Neill is a wanker. Is that better?
...and that's all that needs to be said. Close the thread please mods!
-
While I have found this thread to be one of the most tedious ones I have ever seen on this site, here is an article about MON from The Irish Times, which probably hits the nail on the head....
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/martin-o-neill-from-a-human-exclamation-mark-to-a-despondent-figure-1.1345315
-
I emailed a Sunderland supporting colleague this morning to get his take on it. He's pissed of with the appointment and is seriously considering stopping going. He's got a 12 year old son' "how do I explain it to him?" was the question.
-
I emailed a Sunderland supporting colleague this morning to get his take on it. He's pissed of with the appointment and is seriously considering stopping going. He's got a 12 year old son' "how do I explain it to him?" was the question.
I know a Sunderland fan as well, i'll have to ask him what he thinks.
-
I emailed a Sunderland supporting colleague this morning to get his take on it. He's pissed of with the appointment and is seriously considering stopping going. He's got a 12 year old son' "how do I explain it to him?" was the question.
I know a Sunderland fan as well, i'll have to ask him what he thinks.
I have many relatives in the north east and love going up there as my old friend davey b will testify , the majority are sunderland fans and were full of joy at mons appointment but in the main are glad to see him go - not sure di canio is a popular appointment though .
-
My mackem mate thinks PDC is a prick of the highest order and they're doomed
-
While I have found this thread to be one of the most tedious ones I have ever seen on this site, here is an article about MON from The Irish Times, which probably hits the nail on the head....
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/martin-o-neill-from-a-human-exclamation-mark-to-a-despondent-figure-1.1345315
"Buying British is now an expensive way to end up with a mediocre squad."
And there in a nutshell is MON's legacy to us. However, he did get them to over perform.
-
However, he did get them to over perform.
Did he? The players who are really good like Ashley Young, James Milner and Martin Laursen performed pretty much like you would expect really good players to.
I didn't see much over-performance from most of the players. Just good, hugely overpriced players playing at the level one would expect.
-
However, he did get them to over perform.
Did he? The players who are really good like Ashley Young, James Milner and Martin Laursen performed pretty much like you would expect really good players to.
I didn't see much over-performance from most of the players. Just good, hugely overpriced players playing at the level one would expect.
I dunno Dave - Milner was solid in his first spell for us in 2005-6 but I never thought he would play for England. Similarly, I was at Watford away in Sept 2006 and didn't come back demanding that we sign Ashley Young. Both Collins and Dunne were far better than I feared ( same for Luke Young) and I had heard from friends in France that Carew was washed up at Lyon. Agbonlahor probably had his best ever spell around 2008-9 too, likewise Barry the previous season.
God knows there were some dross and overpriced signings, but there were some good ones and some improvements to existing players too.
-
However, he did get them to over perform.
Did he? The players who are really good like Ashley Young, James Milner and Martin Laursen performed pretty much like you would expect really good players to.
I didn't see much over-performance from most of the players. Just good, hugely overpriced players playing at the level one would expect.
Agbonlahor, Dunne and Collins seemed to overachieve under O'Neill, certainly considering what they've done since. Then again, I think Dunne was pretty highly-rated at Man City too.
On the other hand, there are absolutely loads of players who seemed to have potential who he did nothing with and we sold for nothing/peanuts. Examples being Davis, Davies, Reo-Coker and (worst) Cahill.
-
Warnock was class when he first arrived but it didn't take long to drag him down to our level.
-
if Di Canio was a true racist he wouldnt survive in the game playing and working with so many black players, he just wouldnt be able to get away with it,
the racists i know dont care who knows about there views, i know he has said and done stuf in the past. his right wing views are very much an italian traditional thing, if his politics are that of the right i dont see it as a massive problem, mine are of the Left but so what he's a football manager
i think the big problem is when he describes himself as a Fascist,
the conotations there are dreadfull but maybe he just sees it as a right wing position and i really dont think he is going to start rounding up jews for slaughter, or any other kind of extremist actions.
he's probably regretting his book and the things he's talked about in the past, but Nick Grifiths he is not IMO
maybe i like to see the best in all people, and i would always give someone another chance, if he says he's not racist and doesnt hold extremist views i would take him at his word and let him get on with the job
dont forget Cheryl Cole was considered a racist once, having slept with nothing but black men and marrried the most odious one since, i dont think the allegation stands up anymore
people do make mistakes, they shouldnt have to live the rest of there lives with them hanging round there necks
-
However, he did get them to over perform.
Did he? The players who are really good like Ashley Young, James Milner and Martin Laursen performed pretty much like you would expect really good players to.
I didn't see much over-performance from most of the players. Just good, hugely overpriced players playing at the level one would expect.
I dunno Dave - Milner was solid in his first spell for us in 2005-6 but I never thought he would play for England. Similarly, I was at Watford away in Sept 2006 and didn't come back demanding that we sign Ashley Young. Both Collins and Dunne were far better than I feared ( same for Luke Young) and I had heard from friends in France that Carew was washed up at Lyon. Agbonlahor probably had his best ever spell around 2008-9 too, likewise Barry the previous season.
God knows there were some dross and overpriced signings, but there were some good ones and some improvements to existing players too.
Thats way too sensible a post for this thread.
-
However, he did get them to over perform.
Did he? The players who are really good like Ashley Young, James Milner and Martin Laursen performed pretty much like you would expect really good players to.
I didn't see much over-performance from most of the players. Just good, hugely overpriced players playing at the level one would expect.
I dunno Dave - Milner was solid in his first spell for us in 2005-6 but I never thought he would play for England. Similarly, I was at Watford away in Sept 2006 and didn't come back demanding that we sign Ashley Young. Both Collins and Dunne were far better than I feared ( same for Luke Young) and I had heard from friends in France that Carew was washed up at Lyon. Agbonlahor probably had his best ever spell around 2008-9 too, likewise Barry the previous season.
God knows there were some dross and overpriced signings, but there were some good ones and some improvements to existing players too.
Thats way too sensible a post for this thread.
But true enough.
-
if Di Canio was a true racist he wouldnt survive in the game playing and working with so many black players, he just wouldnt be able to get away with it,
the racists i know dont care who knows about there views, i know he has said and done stuf in the past. his right wing views are very much an italian traditional thing, if his politics are that of the right i dont see it as a massive problem, mine are of the Left but so what he's a football manager
i think the big problem is when he describes himself as a Fascist,
the conotations there are dreadfull but maybe he just sees it as a right wing position and i really dont think he is going to start rounding up jews for slaughter, or any other kind of extremist actions.
he's probably regretting his book and the things he's talked about in the past, but Nick Grifiths he is not IMO
maybe i like to see the best in all people, and i would always give someone another chance, if he says he's not racist and doesnt hold extremist views i would take him at his word and let him get on with the job
dont forget Cheryl Cole was considered a racist once, having slept with nothing but black men and marrried the most odious one since, i dont think the allegation stands up anymore
people do make mistakes, they shouldnt have to live the rest of there lives with them hanging round there necks
He can hardly complain about politics being bought up when he himself strode around the pitch making the gestures he did. He bought all this upon himself and it will dog the rest of his career.
-
if Di Canio was a true racist he wouldnt survive in the game playing and working with so many black players, he just wouldnt be able to get away with it,
the racists i know dont care who knows about there views, i know he has said and done stuf in the past. his right wing views are very much an italian traditional thing, if his politics are that of the right i dont see it as a massive problem, mine are of the Left but so what he's a football manager
i think the big problem is when he describes himself as a Fascist,
the conotations there are dreadfull but maybe he just sees it as a right wing position and i really dont think he is going to start rounding up jews for slaughter, or any other kind of extremist actions.
he's probably regretting his book and the things he's talked about in the past, but Nick Grifiths he is not IMO
maybe i like to see the best in all people, and i would always give someone another chance, if he says he's not racist and doesnt hold extremist views i would take him at his word and let him get on with the job
dont forget Cheryl Cole was considered a racist once, having slept with nothing but black men and marrried the most odious one since, i dont think the allegation stands up anymore
people do make mistakes, they shouldnt have to live the rest of there lives with them hanging round there necks
He can hardly complain about politics being bought up when he himself strode around the pitch making the gestures he did. He bought all this upon himself and it will dog the rest of his career.
Cheryl Cole is now one of the media's most loved celebrities, im quite sure the toilet cleaner she smacked in the face a few years ago, probably doesnt share the media love in of her.
-
I emailed a Sunderland supporting colleague this morning to get his take on it. He's pissed of with the appointment and is seriously considering stopping going. He's got a 12 year old son' "how do I explain it to him?" was the question.
We sacked the old manager and appointed a new one. Easy.
-
if Di Canio was a true racist he wouldnt survive in the game playing and working with so many black players, he just wouldnt be able to get away with it,
the racists i know dont care who knows about there views, i know he has said and done stuf in the past. his right wing views are very much an italian traditional thing, if his politics are that of the right i dont see it as a massive problem, mine are of the Left but so what he's a football manager
i think the big problem is when he describes himself as a Fascist,
the conotations there are dreadfull but maybe he just sees it as a right wing position and i really dont think he is going to start rounding up jews for slaughter, or any other kind of extremist actions.
he's probably regretting his book and the things he's talked about in the past, but Nick Grifiths he is not IMO
maybe i like to see the best in all people, and i would always give someone another chance, if he says he's not racist and doesnt hold extremist views i would take him at his word and let him get on with the job
dont forget Cheryl Cole was considered a racist once, having slept with nothing but black men and marrried the most odious one since, i dont think the allegation stands up anymore
people do make mistakes, they shouldnt have to live the rest of there lives with them hanging round there necks
He can hardly complain about politics being bought up when he himself strode around the pitch making the gestures he did. He bought all this upon himself and it will dog the rest of his career.
Cheryl Cole is now one of the media's most loved celebrities, im quite sure the toilet cleaner she smacked in the face a few years ago, probably doesnt share the media love in of her.
I don't see the two as comparable. PDC has gone on record and publicly demonstrated that he follows an ideology that many people find abhorant. I agree that the media often demonstrate double standards in many cases but I don't care what the media think, however I do care what the fans of Sunderland and those organisations involved with the club think and they have a right to call in to question the appointment. I would hope that similar questions would be asked at our club as well, particularly given our history.
-
I don't see the two as comparable. PDC has gone on record and publicly demonstrated that he follows an ideology that many people find abhorant. I agree that the media often demonstrate double standards in many cases but I don't care what the media think, however I do care what the fans of Sunderland and those organisations involved with the club think and they have a right to call in to question the appointment. I would hope that similar questions would be asked at our club as well, particularly given our history.
*applaud*
This club (Sunderland) and its fans does not deserve PDC. I don't care how bloody inspirational he has been, or might be, his personal convictions as published and uttered by himself are abhorrent. I wouldn't want him anywhere near the Villa, so why should Sunderland fans accept him?
Totally acknowledge his right to self expression.
Totally repudiate any 'star quality' - driven right to employment in any footballing context, as his political views automatically exclude individuals on a non-footballing basis. For that reason I would not let the man get anywhere near an Academy, let alone the first team.
-
An ex-manager of ours called a black player a "fucking lazy, thick n*gger". I bet most people would shake his hand if they met him at Villa Park though.
-
How would we feel if he came to Villa? a fella who willingly gave the Narzeye salute, managing a club who are proud to have refused to do the same.
I'd rather get relegated.
And he reminds me of a thin Brian Conley. Dynamo Doug Digby from The Grimleys.
-
An ex-manager of ours called a black player a "fucking lazy, thick n*gger". I bet most people would shake his hand if they met him at Villa Park though.
I wouldn't.
-
I don't see the two as comparable. PDC has gone on record and publicly demonstrated that he follows an ideology that many people find abhorant. I agree that the media often demonstrate double standards in many cases but I don't care what the media think, however I do care what the fans of Sunderland and those organisations involved with the club think and they have a right to call in to question the appointment. I would hope that similar questions would be asked at our club as well, particularly given our history.
Good post Nev. I really don't understand people who say judge him on his football management. Why? Why not judge him on his publicly declared abhorrent views? A football club belongs to supporters. It's not a bottom line business. It's an emotional institution and we should therefore look and examine the character of administrators, staff and players associated with it.
-
I haven't heard or read Ron A describe himself as a fascist in any interviews. Because he isn't. I'm more concerned about PDC, who has.
-
I haven't heard or read Ron A describe himself as a fascist in any interviews. Because he isn't. I'm more concerned about PDC, who has.
I haven't ever heard di Canio say anything racist though, unlike Big Ron who I have.
-
I never seen this from anyone who isn't one in some way in the last 30 years unless it was a spoof. And his expression doesn't show spoof.
(http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/515999eb69bedd5624000016-620-465-400-/paolo-di-canio-fascist-salute.jpg)
-
An ex-manager of ours called a black player a "fucking lazy, thick n*gger". I bet most people would shake his hand if they met him at Villa Park though.
A big difference is that PDC chose to publish his words, probably after numerous warnings from his editors. Furthermore PDC has also chosen to have numerous Mussolini tattoos on his body which are pretty permanent and significant badges of honour. Claiming his was off mic doesn't excuse BFR for his words, however I still feel the two things are different.
-
Oops, meant to mod, not quote.
-
Di Canio equivocates about his fascist beliefs. He admires some things about Mussolini, he says, but not others. He praises British 'multi-culturalism' but demands racial integration for immigrants to Italy.
Wankers like Henry Winter pretend this demonstrates a 'nuanced' or complex set of political values, which we shouldn't rush to judge.
I didn't like him as a player and I have no time for him now. The analogy with BFR is inaccurate because a thoughtless and offensive remark - for which he apologised endlessly - is very different from a fascist tattoo.
-
Mr Di Canio not clearing anything up:-
Q: A statement was put out yesterday, but that didn’t include a clear and simple answer to a clear, simple question. Are you a fascist?
A: I don’t have to answer this any more. I can’t state every three weeks or three months. So 21 months ago, some of you – not you in here – picked up some lines from a long interview. I am at a football club. If I was working in the Houses of Parliament then I would answer a political question, but I’m probably never going to get there. I only want to talk about football. This story has to finish. Paolo Di Canio is 45 years of age and his life speaks for him.
Q: It’s a yes/no question.
Louise Wanless, Sunderland press officer: “I think we’ve answered that.”
Q: He hasn’t answered it, that’s the key.
Wanless: “He’s answered it as far as he wishes to, and as far as we want to. So let’s move on to football.”
Q: North East football has worked really hard over the last three decades to combat racism?
A: You are not offending me, but you are offending my family. I do not permit anyone to offend the values I have received from my parents. If you want to talk about football then we can start to work. You in your area, me in my area.
Q: But Paolo, you did use the word fascists and people are wondering why you used that word
A: I answer only football questions.
Q: Does that not make the issue worse because you are not clarifying it?
A: I only answer football questions. I have clarified it many times in the past.
Q: PR-wise, that just makes it worse because it’s not addressing [the issue].
Wanless: “Kindly do not tell me how to do my job. Paolo has answered the question as much as he wishes to, we issued a statement yesterday.
Q: Would Paolo like to meet some of the fans who are saying that they don’t want to come to matches while you are manager. Would you like to sit down with them?
A: Not for one reason because it’s happened at Swindon. Once they saw Paolo Di Canio and discovered Paolo Di Canio, they were there with their children every day.
Every few weeks we organised a meeting with the children and they were really enthusiastic. They were asking for pictures because they discovered Paolo Di Canio and the values he has got.
When I have confirmed and convinced people, they will stay in the queue and buy a ticket for Sunderland because they will see how I work and what kind of person I am.
So I don’t have to answer that question any more. So once again, I want to repeat, the people who are talking about this offend my parents and I don’t give any chances to anyone to offend my parents.
Not Paolo Di Canio. If I were alone, without my family previously and my daughters now, I would answer every single question, I would say a few words some of them might be bad words – I have to be honest with you.
But now the story has to finish.
Paolo Di Canio, in 45 years, never had a problem in his life with anyone. There is no one story about Paolo Di Canio that has to be clear.
What counts for you in life? The world of fact.
Q: Why use the word fascist?
A: Word or fact? What counts for you? Okay, that has to be clear.
Q: Why did you use the word fascist, though?
A: This has to be clear.
Q: Why did you use the word fascist then?
Wanless: “We are moving on.”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/paolo-di-canio-fascist-row-1801594
-
Has MO'N been sacked? Any idea why Barry didn't take the penalty?
-
It is wonderful that Sunderland were so desperate to get rid of Pubey, they'd replace him with a head-the-ball like Di Canio
-
I wonder if the old "fascist scum get out of brum" ANL chant will get an airing when he comes to VP.
-
You can't really compare PDC to BFR or Mark Bosnich say. There's a difference between sudden moments of arse brained idiocy and in PDC's case being totally vehement and persistent in his views. But though Di Canio seems to think Mussolini was great he still appreciates that he did unspeakable things. I think if anything Di Canio's just very arrogant. He likes attention and he knows full well how to get it. It's about show. I don't think he's racist by any stretch. He's just a fiery character. Does he have the temperament to be a top manager? I'm not sure. He will shock, he'll entertain, then he'll disappear off back to Italy. I think he knows he can't work the crowd in this country saluting like he did in Italy.
Do I feel sorry for Sunderland fans? Not really. Like any set of club fans you have to endure what the powers that be deem suitable for your club. Often that means the wrong manager. We had to put up with McLeish.
And lets face it, this is a fickle business. If Di Canio wins 4-5 of his remaining games and has them finish around mid-table, they'll bloody love him. He's got a game against Newcastle coming up too. Win that and the level of complaints from the Cats fans will probably more than half.
-
I wonder if MON is screaming at everybody that will listen asking why are people not asking why I've been sacked, why is there not a public debate, why are the papers back pages not full of glowing tributes to his genius.
To quote a username on here, Martin who?
-
If people didn't know that Paolo Di Canio was a facist then no-one would be bothered. I can't say I know the beliefs of my managers at work - does it affect their ability to do their job? It doesn't seem too. Do I care? No.
-
I wonder if the old "fascist scum get out of brum" ANL chant will get an airing when he comes to VP.
I hope so.
-
Why is it when he was at Swindon we hardly ever heard anything about it, now he's at Sunderland I'm bloody sick of hearing it, He's entitled to his own opinions in my view.
-
Im not at all bothered about his political views. Thats his choice. What I am very concerned about is the possibility of him getting Sunderland
going. He obviously has something which works if only for a few months.
Sunderland are the best bet to keep us up.
Lets hope he fails.
-
Why is it when he was at Swindon we hardly ever heard anything about it, now he's at Sunderland I'm bloody sick of hearing it, He's entitled to his own opinions in my view.
I think David Milliband being against his appointment brought it back out into the open again.
You at Stoke on Saturday mate?
-
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but James Richardson (of Football Italia fame) said something interesting the other day: In Italy its perfectly acceptable to say something along the lines of 'Mussolini was terrible, but he was principled and he did good things like draining the marshes and getting the trains to run on time', because they feel that you have to take all the aspects of the system individually. So PDC's opinons aren't that out of line with mainstream Italian thinking (just look how many outright Fascist or Neo-Fascist parties are active in Italian politics).
Over here, however, we tend to take the view that any praise of any aspect of the Fascist system is wrong, because to do so is to implicitly condone the nature of the whole system - Mussolini may have reformed the economy, trains etc, but he did it through a system built on violence and terror, and that taints everything he did.
My view, for what its worth, is that Fascism, no matter how supposedly 'nuanced', has no place in our society. Especially as it wasn't long ago when quasi-Fascist parties like the BNP were on the verge of getting seats in parliament, the EDL were lurching about our streets harassing anyone slightly browner than them, and the Golden Dawn are beating and murdering immigrants in Greece more or less with impunity. Im not saying PDC running Sunderland is somehow going to turn us into Nazi Germany, but if we start accepting the extreme right in football, then its not a massive leap for it to start infiltrating other british institutions.
TL;DR
PDC would've got away with it in Italy, but this aint Italy. Also, Fascism is fucking abhorrent, I'd prefer not to have it in my country thankyouverymuch
-
It's not acceptable over here, Dekko mate. It's just that some politicians every now and again say stupid things in the lead up to elections as they think that it will win them some votes. They get caned for it in the press, mind. Although for Berlusconi that's irrelevant as he owns half of the media and seemingly led his recent election campaign on the principle of there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Fascism is certainly viewed differently here to the way that it's viewed in Britain, inevitably, and it's certainly a lot more prevalent, but I wouldn't say that mainstream thinking is accepting of it. Political discourse is still littered with people being accused of being 'fascist' or 'communist', whether they be of the centre-right or centre-left, which is all a throw-back to the War and which smudges the lines somewhat. Yes, there are several active fascist parties, but they aren't, at least yet, God forbid, mainstream.
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
-
Why is it when he was at Swindon we hardly ever heard anything about it, now he's at Sunderland I'm bloody sick of hearing it, He's entitled to his own opinions in my view.
The comparison is the bloke running a corner shop and whoever is the current CEO of Tesco. The Premier League is big world wide, Div 2 in England isn't.
-
It's not acceptable over here, Dekko mate. It's just that some politicians every now and again say stupid things in the lead up to elections as they think that it will win them some votes. They get caned for it in the press, mind. Although for Berlusconi that's irrelevant as he owns half of the media and seemingly led his recent election campaign on the principle of there's no such thing as bad publicity.
Fascism is certainly viewed differently here to the way that it's viewed in Britain, inevitably, and it's certainly a lot more prevalent, but I wouldn't say that mainstream thinking is accepting of it. Political discourse is still littered with people being accused of being 'fascist' or 'communist', whether they be of the centre-right or centre-left, which is all a throw-back to the War and which smudges the lines somewhat. Yes, there are several active fascist parties, but they aren't, at least yet, God forbid, mainstream.
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
Yeah, I'll happily admit that my knowledge of Italian politics is fairly limited, so thanks for correcting me. I was under the impression that the coalition politics in the country meant that there was a lot of minor Fascist parties that were part of the big political blocs, but a quick look at wikipedia tells me I was confusing anti-immigrant, right wing and populist with outright Fascist.
DiCanio can still bugger off though.
-
I wonder if the old "fascist scum get out of brum" ANL chant will get an airing when he comes to VP.
I would go for 'Sieg Heil, Di Canio' myself
-
He may get a response and keep them up but I will be surprised if di canio lasts a year on wearside - he is a loose cannon and i cannot see Ellis short tolerating his behaviour for long .
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
Oh dear.
-
I wonder if MON is screaming at everybody that will listen asking why are people not asking why I've been sacked, why is there not a public debate, why are the papers back pages not full of glowing tributes to his genius.
To quote a username on here, Martin who?
To be honest, I think MON's media mates are deflecting all this for him; hence all the DiCanio hoo-ha. Did they give a shit when he was manager of Swindon? No.
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
Woooooosh.
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
Woooooosh.
Thank you PWS.
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
Woooooosh.
Excellent pws!
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
Woooooosh.
Excellent pws!
This conversation should be in the little things that make me smile thread!
-
Why is it when he was at Swindon we hardly ever heard anything about it, now he's at Sunderland I'm bloody sick of hearing it, He's entitled to his own opinions in my view.
When he took over at Swindon a couple of years ago, the GMB withdrew their sponsorship of the club.
Thing is, if it aint the premier league, it aint news.
-
I was under the impression that the coalition politics in the country meant that there was a lot of minor Fascist parties that were part of the big political blocs, but a quick look at wikipedia tells me I was confusing anti-immigrant, right wing and populist with outright Fascist.
That's pretty much it, mate. It can be difficult to tell the difference at times, particularly given some of the fools who end up in parliament, but in general that's about the situation.
-
I might stand by the fence where the away team coach pulls up and shout 'I hear your a racist now Paolo'.
Yes that's right , make sure the fence protects you .
Woooooosh.
Excellent pws!
This conversation should be in the little things that make me smile thread!
Yes, indeed. :)
-
I can't see mon being interested in Leeds but I see our old friend mr o dreary has thrown his hat into the ring .
As for mon unless everton want him in the summer i think his club management days are probably finished - cant see him dropping down a division or taking a lower table job .
Some Everton fans seem to be drooling over the prospect of him taking over should moyes leave but i don't know if kenwright would be quite so keen.
-
What we need is for there to be a perfectly square piece of dirt on the window of the Sunderland team coach, whilst he's barking out orders...
-
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
I think Milliband should be applauded, too. Too often we criticise politicians for not really having principles beyond what serves them best, but I'd imagine Millibamd would have been thinking about the effect fascism had on his own family when they made that appointment.
The thing I find most laughable in this is the Sunderland statement the other day saying that it was ridiculous to suggest Di Canio is a fascist or a racist.
This is a man who has actually said, several times, that he's a fascist, engaged in fascist salues with the Lazio fans, and has DUX tattooed on his thigh.
I'd say they might have thought to check with Paolo before saying he's no fascist.
-
I can't see mon being interested in Leeds but I see our old friend mr o dreary has thrown his hat into the ring .
As for mon unless everton want him in the summer i think his club management days are probably finished - cant see him dropping down a division or taking a lower table job .
Surely MON's renowned knowledge of players worldwide would make him an ideal choice for an overseas club. ;)
-
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but James Richardson (of Football Italia fame) said something interesting the other day:
I don't believe it!
-
I just love the idea of Everton fans, drooling.
-
The thing I find most laughable in this is the Sunderland statement the other day saying that it was ridiculous to suggest Di Canio is a fascist or a racist.
This is a man who has actually said, several times, that he's a fascist, engaged in fascist salues with the Lazio fans, and has DUX tattooed on his thigh.
I'd say they might have thought to check with Paolo before saying he's no fascist.
I found that difficult to believe as well. How Margaret Byrne, Sunderland Chief Executive, could say the following is beyond me:
"To accuse him now, as some have done, of being a racist or having fascist sympathies is insulting not only to him but to the integrity of this football club."
It really looks as though they had no idea. I think they've been very naïve.
-
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
I'm sure Milliband was being sincere but it's interesting that this event coincided with his decision to go to the States to work; perhaps it was easier for him to resign because of that earlier decision.
-
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
I'm sure Milliband was being sincere but it's interesting that this event coincided with his decision to go to the States to work; perhaps it was easier for him to resign because of that earlier decision.
I wouldn't be surprised if that did make it easier for him, but I think that, regardless of whether that had an impact or not, it was the right thing to do.
-
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
I think Milliband should be applauded, too. Too often we criticise politicians for not really having principles beyond what serves them best, but I'd imagine Millibamd would have been thinking about the effect fascism had on his own family when they made that appointment.
The thing I find most laughable in this is the Sunderland statement the other day saying that it was ridiculous to suggest Di Canio is a fascist or a racist.
This is a man who has actually said, several times, that he's a fascist, engaged in fascist salues with the Lazio fans, and has DUX tattooed on his thigh.
I'd say they might have thought to check with Paolo before saying he's no fascist.
I have read a couple of Sunderland forums on Milliband and they can't stand him. There take was that as a Director, he would have known that PDC was being considered. He would also have known that MON was being sacked. What they are saying is the game the week before, Norwich I think was the last straw and thats when the decision was made and they were speaking to PDC after that. He could have resigned then
They all say he could never had fulfilled his role as Director from New York and has used PDC to gain public capital out of the situation
-
The thing I find most laughable in this is the Sunderland statement the other day saying that it was ridiculous to suggest Di Canio is a fascist or a racist.
This is a man who has actually said, several times, that he's a fascist, engaged in fascist salues with the Lazio fans, and has DUX tattooed on his thigh.
I'd say they might have thought to check with Paolo before saying he's no fascist.
I found that difficult to believe as well. How Margaret Byrne, Sunderland Chief Executive, could say the following is beyond me:
"To accuse him now, as some have done, of being a racist or having fascist sympathies is insulting not only to him but to the integrity of this football club."
It really looks as though they had no idea. I think they've been very naïve.
Seems naivety in management appointments is not exclusive to Villa then (TSM).
-
Seems naivety in management appointments is not exclusive to Villa then (TSM).
Ha ha! Very good!
In their defence, I think they were being more wilfully obtuse than naive.
-
Well clearly if a couple of people on Sunderland forums can't stand Miliband, then he must be wrong then.
Or something
-
Personally, I think Milliband should be applauded for what he's done. People complain about politicians not being principled and not standing for anything anymore, well, in the past, Di Canio has declared himself to be a fascist. In Britain, given our history and given the number of people who gave their lives to defeat fascism, that should be unacceptable and I think standing up and saying I don't hold truck with someone who holds those beliefs is quite right.
I think Milliband should be applauded, too. Too often we criticise politicians for not really having principles beyond what serves them best, but I'd imagine Millibamd would have been thinking about the effect fascism had on his own family when they made that appointment.
The thing I find most laughable in this is the Sunderland statement the other day saying that it was ridiculous to suggest Di Canio is a fascist or a racist.
This is a man who has actually said, several times, that he's a fascist, engaged in fascist salues with the Lazio fans, and has DUX tattooed on his thigh.
I'd say they might have thought to check with Paolo before saying he's no fascist.
I have read a couple of Sunderland forums on Milliband and they can't stand him. There take was that as a Director, he would have known that PDC was being considered. He would also have known that MON was being sacked. What they are saying is the game the week before, Norwich I think was the last straw and thats when the decision was made and they were speaking to PDC after that. He could have resigned then
They all say he could never had fulfilled his role as Director from New York and has used PDC to gain public capital out of the situation
Why should miliband have resigned earlier - he may have advised sunderland that di canio had fascist baggage and once the decision to appoint him was made he resigned - i don't think miliband deserves criticism for that .
-
Well clearly if a couple of people on Sunderland forums can't stand Miliband, then he must be wrong then.
Or something
Or we have 5 or 6 pages on the debate and we're right and they have about 50 pages between them and they are wrong
-
He resigned due to Di Canio's facist leanings and he's accused of doing so for publicity. Bit what would have his detractors said if he had stayed on the Sunderland board? Ever heard the phrase "Can't do right for doing wrong?"
-
PDC may find his slapping tactics work on young lower league lads but premiership players may not respond too well to his management style-
Paolo Di Canio pledged to kick his players, “slap faces” and avoid “anarchy” in a bid to save Sunderland from relegation.
The new Black Cats coach warned he would not be afraid to substitute players after 20 minutes if there were bickering, and insisted he was the man to revive the club.
Di Canio will boss his first game on Saturday at Chelsea, and admitted his unconventional style in the dug out may be a surprise to the top flight.
He said: “It can happen that I can kick my players bottoms, but hopefully it will only be when we are celebrating.
“You ask about one time at Swindon. Which occasion? It happened two or three times!
“I did see one picture of an incident where I kicked Matt Ritchie’s bottom. They said it had happened after I changed him and was angry. No, it was after a game and we were celebrating.
“Sometimes I give a little slap on his face and a kick on the bottom - but it was a celebratory moment. I kicked his bottom... if it is necessary to win the game then why not.
-
I know it's become slightly clichéd these days but the Edmund Burke line about 'all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing' seems appropriate here. If we start accepting that it's ok for people to espouse fascist views unopposed, then what's next?
-
Why is it when he was at Swindon we hardly ever heard anything about it, now he's at Sunderland I'm bloody sick of hearing it, He's entitled to his own opinions in my view.
When he took over at Swindon a couple of years ago, the GMB withdrew their sponsorship of the club.
Thing is, if it aint the premier league, it aint news.
True. But good to see the local National Union of Mineworkers branch protesting against this appointment and removing their banner from the ground. Latest revelations are that Di Canio had attended the funderal a couple of years back of a convicted fascist terrorist (but hey, lets not bring politics into it).
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4870918/Paolo-Di-Canio-at-bomb-fascists-funeral.html
-
He resigned due to Di Canio's facist leanings and he's accused of doing so for publicity. Bit what would have his detractors said if he had stayed on the Sunderland board? Ever heard the phrase "Can't do right for doing wrong?"
Agreed - although is it not "Can't do right for doing right"? Either way, he'd have been applauded / criticised in equal measure, regardless.
-
Funny there wasn't any brewhaha when he was ar Swindon.... Lower league footy doesn't matter.
-
Funny there wasn't any brewhaha when he was ar Swindon.... Lower league footy doesn't matter.
How many times does this need to be pointed out? There was opposition from the people that matter, those with links to the club and some fans. I remember it distinctly. The same sort of people have raised concern at SAFC but this time, because it is the PL, the press are heavily reporting this. The principle remains the same.
-
Well what I read on the Sunderland forums was he must have known a month or so ago that he was off to NY. Why didn't he resign then. He was right to resign though. I just feel sorry for the fans, by and large they seem decent folk.
-
Can't do right for doing wrong is also a wicked song by the mighty Wildhearts (who I'm seeing Sunday..Wohoo)
-
Can't do right for doing wrong is also a wicked song by the mighty Wildhearts (who I'm seeing Sunday..Wohoo)
Some mates of mine are going as well. I only like Caffeine Bomb.
-
20 years of Earth Vs the wildhearts Clampy, you want to get your hands on a copy of PHUQ, I'm not goin to Stoke mate I got a party on. OH and Im broke
-
20 years of Earth Vs the wildhearts Clampy, you want to get your hands on a copy of PHUQ, I'm not goin to Stoke mate I got a party on. OH and Im broke
They're alright, I have seen them llive. I think (I might be wrong) The Bloodhound Gang supported them at the Civic.
Edit. Actually, thinking about it, it might have been Therapy supporting them.
-
He resigned due to Di Canio's facist leanings and he's accused of doing so for publicity. Bit what would have his detractors said if he had stayed on the Sunderland board? Ever heard the phrase "Can't do right for doing wrong?"
Agreed - although is it not "Can't do right for doing right"? Either way, he'd have been applauded / criticised in equal measure, regardless.
There was a third option. Resign because moving to the U.S. and/or working for International Rescue will mean that he is unable to fulfil his obligations to Sunderland.
It was no ordinary directorship. He had been paid £125,000 in return for 15 days 'consultancy'.
With numbers like that it's possible that MON hired him, and the resignation was more a reaction to his sacking. ;)
-
this maybe old now but at least PDC will get the training to run on time
-
Since yesterdays press conference I think someone, somewhere has had a quiet word.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22017645#TWEET705371
-
@GaryLineker: Paolo Di Canio statement: 'I am not a racist and I do not support the ideology of fascism.' Thank heavens for that.
-
@GaryLineker: Paolo Di Canio statement: 'I am not a racist and I do not support the ideology of fascism.' Thank heavens for that.
I'm hoping it all ends in tears simply for villa's best interest. Sunderland are the most likely candidate to drop below us.
-
Potential downside is it may cause a siege mentality up there and have them fighting tooth and nail. Potential upside is the circus that goes with The Fascist may cause them to implode even more.
-
Potential downside is it may cause a siege mentality up there and have them fighting tooth and nail. Potential upside is the circus that goes with The Fascist may cause them to implode even more.
O Neill was supposed to be the motivator , if he couldn't get anything from them then di canio could find it even harder with his strongarm approach . Could get. A reaction like cloughie did when he went to Leeds hopefully !
-
Potential downside is it may cause a siege mentality up there and have them fighting tooth and nail. Potential upside is the circus that goes with The Fascist may cause them to implode even more.
O Neill was supposed to be the motivator , if he couldn't get anything from them then di canio could find it even harder with his strongarm approach . Could get. A reaction like cloughie did when he went to Leeds hopefully !
The two situations are not really comparable. Clough took over when Leeds were at their peak, Sunderland are in a mess.
The more I think about it with O'Neill, I'd say that in the years since he first joined us PL football has changed massively but he tried to stick to his tried and trusted methods and it hasn't worked.
The problem I have is that things have gone too far the other way and I'm not sure I like the new, non-contact, version that much, but I'm just a fan so what I say doesn't matter in the scheme of things.
-
Potential downside is it may cause a siege mentality up there and have them fighting tooth and nail. Potential upside is the circus that goes with The Fascist may cause them to implode even more.
O Neill was supposed to be the motivator , if he couldn't get anything from them then di canio could find it even harder with his strongarm approach . Could get. A reaction like cloughie did when he went to Leeds hopefully !
MON looked a shadow of himself the last few months. His one strength was his motivational skills but they seem to have gone leaving him with pretty much nothing to offer a club.
-
I think Di Canio will keep them up personally. It is a massive blow to us that they changed manager, but I would not want him over Lambert in a decade of Sundays.
-
Potential downside is it may cause a siege mentality up there and have them fighting tooth and nail. Potential upside is the circus that goes with The Fascist may cause them to implode even more.
O Neill was supposed to be the motivator , if he couldn't get anything from them then di canio could find it even harder with his strongarm approach . Could get. A reaction like cloughie did when he went to Leeds hopefully !
The two situations are not really comparable. Clough took over when Leeds were at their peak, Sunderland are in a mess.
The more I think about it with O'Neill, I'd say that in the years since he first joined us PL football has changed massively but he tried to stick to his tried and trusted methods and it hasn't worked.
The problem I have is that things have gone too far the other way and I'm not sure I like the new, non-contact, version that much, but I'm just a fan so what I say doesn't matter in the scheme of things.
I'm aware of the situations being different as regards ability but it could be if di canio rubs players up the wrong way and upsets them they may resent him and put in minimal effort hopefully.
If he has a positive affect and gets the best out of them then its bad news for us.
-
I think Di Canio will have his players totally fired up against us. He'll want revenge after we knocked Swindon out earlier this season. That's a worry.
I don't like the uncertainty now. It could go either way. Sunderland were looking like a limp dog in need of shooting under O Neill. It would have been a game we'd have fancied winning and rubbing pube-heads face in it.
If there's one thing you could say about PDC, is that he's incredibly strong willed and self confident. He'll want to ram any doubts down the doubters throats and he'll also want to prove himself to be a quality top flight manager. You could of course say that about many failed top flight managers over the years (Keane), but there's gonna be few who'll be as determined to be the mutts nuts as PDC. Whether that is enough to make Sunderland a solid side, and survive, remains to be seen. But PDC has will to win in abundance. If it works then we could suffer as a consequence because Wigan and Soton are both looking reasonable at the minute. And we are under the red line at the moment.
-
I think Di Canio will have his players totally fired up against us. He'll want revenge after we knocked Swindon out earlier this season. That's a worry.
I don't like the uncertainty now. It could go either way. Sunderland were looking like a limp dog in need of shooting under O Neill. It would have been a game we'd have fancied winning and rubbing pube-heads face in it.
If there's one thing you could say about PDC, is that he's incredibly strong willed and self confident. He'll want to ram any doubts down the doubters throats and he'll also want to prove himself to be a quality top flight manager. You could of course say that about many failed top flight managers over the years (Keane), but there's gonna be few who'll be as determined to be the mutts nuts as PDC. Whether that is enough to make Sunderland a solid side, and survive, remains to be seen. But PDC has will to win in abundance. If it works then we could suffer as a consequence because Wigan and Soton are both looking reasonable at the minute. And we are under the red line at the moment.
From my understanding, Di Canio brought in a hell of a lot of players at Swindon, rather than really improving players that were already at the club (I'm happy to be corrected on that though). It's hard to know what effect he'll have on the current sunderland squad, he fell out with a few in the swindon squad, and with no transfer window available to him, that could prove costly this season.
-
I think Di Canio will keep them up personally. It is a massive blow to us that they changed manager, but I would not want him over Lambert in a decade of Sundays.
I don't think he will and there is no evidence to think otherwise.
-
I think Di Canio will have his players totally fired up against us. He'll want revenge after we knocked Swindon out earlier this season. That's a worry.
If that was the case nobody would ever want to win a cup tie ever again.
-
Well what I read on the Sunderland forums was he must have known a month or so ago that he was off to NY. Why didn't he resign then. He was right to resign though. I just feel sorry for the fans, by and large they seem decent folk.
He didn't need to reign just because he was appointed to a job based in NewYork just as our Chairman and some directors don't need to do that simply because they are not UK based. He can still attend once in a month board meetings etc.
-
I think Di Canio will have his players totally fired up against us. He'll want revenge after we knocked Swindon out earlier this season. That's a worry.
If that was the case nobody would ever want to win a cup tie ever again.
That really is from the bottom draw of a football supporter's dark thoughts. Unbelievable conjuncture!
-
That's a suspiciously precise wording in Di Canio's tweet.
'I did not murder my wife, or any of her friends, on a Thursday'
-
MON would perhaps be galvanized once again back @ leicester makes sense as Pearson really messing up there promotion chances.
-
Steve Rose is spot on about Miliband being a classic O'Neill signing. Overpriced British underachiever, rarely makes an appearance, and nobody notices him until he's off the wage bill
-
Sunderland are bound to get a bounce, and their next match is against Chelsea, a team who seem very keen to be generous to all the teams around us.
-
Benitez seems hell bent on relegating Villa doesn't he.
-
Funny there wasn't any brewhaha when he was ar Swindon.... Lower league footy doesn't matter.
How many times does this need to be pointed out? There was opposition from the people that matter, those with links to the club and some fans. I remember it distinctly. The same sort of people have raised concern at SAFC but this time, because it is the PL, the press are heavily reporting this. The principle remains the same.
So essentially, we are agreeing.
-
Steve Rose is spot on about Miliband being a classic O'Neill signing. Overpriced British underachiever, rarely makes an appearance, and nobody notices him until he's off the wage bill
Started off on the left wing, but then mostly used on the right.
-
Interesting piece in today's Guardian on managerial appointments: http://gu.com/p/3epzx/tw
-
Sunderland are bound to get a bounce, and their next match is against Chelsea, a team who seem very keen to be generous to all the teams around us.
And a team who desperately need points to get into the champions league with arsenal right on their shoulder.
-
But managed by someone who probably doesn't have much emotional investment in where they finish in the league.
If I were in Benitez's shoes I'd be going all-out to win the FA Cup and Europa League. He's not going to be at Chelsea next season, so why should he give a toss whether they finish third or fifth?
-
But managed by someone who probably doesn't have much emotional investment in where they finish in the league.
If I were in Benitez's shoes I'd be going all-out to win the FA Cup and Europa League. He's not going to be at Chelsea next season, so why should he give a toss whether they finish third or fifth?
If benitez fails to get Chelsea into the champions league it won't do his chances any good of getting a top job elsewhere , failure to qualify for the champions league with the squad chelsea have got would be a blot on his copybook.
I agree he will target the cups as a priority but i think he has the squad at his disposal to beat sunderland at the bridge and see champions league qualification as important whether he is leaving or not.
.
-
But managed by someone who probably doesn't have much emotional investment in where they finish in the league.
If I were in Benitez's shoes I'd be going all-out to win the FA Cup and Europa League. He's not going to be at Chelsea next season, so why should he give a toss whether they finish third or fifth?
If benitez fails to get Chelsea into the champions league it won't do his chances any good of getting a top job elsewhere , failure to qualify for the champions league with the squad chelsea have got would be a blot on his copybook.
I agree he will target the cups as a priority but i think he has the squad at his disposal to beat sunderland at the bridge and see champions league qualification as important whether he is leaving or not.
.
I think Eastie's right. I don't think Benitez would want to have 'first Chelsea manager in ten years not to qualify for the Champions League' on his CV.
-
Interesting piece in today's Guardian on managerial appointments: http://gu.com/p/3epzx/tw
Being involved in slection issues in my day-job, it does seem extraordinary to me that - given the amounts of money involved and the scope of responsibilities - the process appears to be so flaky.
At least RL took references when he signed the TSM (apparently he still has the letter from a Knight of the Realm ...)
-
Benitez seems hell bent on relegating Villa doesn't he.
He always wants to go one better than Gerard Houllier.
-
Steve Rose is spot on about Miliband being a classic O'Neill signing. Overpriced British underachiever, rarely makes an appearance, and nobody notices him until he's off the wage bill
He could have made a real difference if he'd been allowed more AGM time but we'll never know now.
-
But managed by someone who probably doesn't have much emotional investment in where they finish in the league.
If I were in Benitez's shoes I'd be going all-out to win the FA Cup and Europa League. He's not going to be at Chelsea next season, so why should he give a toss whether they finish third or fifth?
If benitez fails to get Chelsea into the champions league it won't do his chances any good of getting a top job elsewhere , failure to qualify for the champions league with the squad chelsea have got would be a blot on his copybook.
I agree he will target the cups as a priority but i think he has the squad at his disposal to beat sunderland at the bridge and see champions league qualification as important whether he is leaving or not.
.
I think Eastie's right. I don't think Benitez would want to have 'first Chelsea manager in ten years not to qualify for the Champions League' on his CV.
Whilst that is very true, there are the mitigating circumstances of him being treated like shit by the absolute wankers of fans, and the whole 'interim manager' thing, making it clear he was just a stop gap. I actually feel for him a bit, and would love it if he fails to qualify and leaves them in the shit.
-
Got no problem with that at all Glasses, mate. Just as long as they beat Sunderland on Sunday!
-
He continues to outrage decent society.
-
Paulo Di Canio and Toploader.
Shoehorn Jamie Oliver's shit eating grin in there somewhere and you have the triumvirate of doom.
-
It's been a really bad season for Redknapp. He's not even the best piss-take in town any more.
-
Toploader. The blandest of the bland
-
Paulo Di Canio and Toploader.
Shoehorn Jamie Oliver's shit eating grin in there somewhere and you have the triumvirate of doom.
LOLorama
-
Top Loader. Urgh.
-
Paulo Di Canio and Toploader.
Shoehorn Jamie Oliver's shit eating grin in there somewhere and you have the triumvirate of doom.
LOLorama
Sunderland should appoint Oliver next. He may not know much about football, but on the final whistle, win or lose, he can whip up a quick seakale and mozzarella salad, drizzled in Marmite and pork pie croutons.
Also, he is a massive knob, which appears to be the quality Sunderland look for in a manager
-
Paulo Di Canio and Toploader.
Shoehorn Jamie Oliver's shit eating grin in there somewhere and you have the triumvirate of doom.
LOLorama
Sunderland should appoint Oliver next. He may not know much about football, but on the final whistle, win or lose, he can whip up a quick seakale and mozzarella salad, drizzled in Marmite and pork pie croutons.
Also, he is a massive knob, which appears to be the quality Sunderland look for in a manager
Is he a knob in real life Damo? Or just on the telly?
I have to say, his recipes are always spot on. The pork belly in cider and the apple pepperpot cake from his British book are winners every time.
-
Paulo Di Canio and Toploader.
Shoehorn Jamie Oliver's shit eating grin in there somewhere and you have the triumvirate of doom.
LOLorama
Sunderland should appoint Oliver next. He may not know much about football, but on the final whistle, win or lose, he can whip up a quick seakale and mozzarella salad, drizzled in Marmite and pork pie croutons.
Also, he is a massive knob, which appears to be the quality Sunderland look for in a manager
Is he a knob in real life Damo? Or just on the telly?
I have to say, his recipes are always spot on. The pork belly in cider and the apple pepperpot cake from his British book are winners every time.
I like Oliver, or I should say, I have no reason to dislike him as he comes across okay on TV even if it's a bit to much 'zwish' of this and 'zwass' of that, but that's his patter so I can except it. However, if given a reason to I could turn the other way.
LOLorama is a good word.
-
I can't stand Oliver with his mockney tendencies. Did he invent Pukka pies?
-
I can't stand Oliver with his mockney tendencies. Did he invent Pukka pies?
Didn't he invent the lisp ?
-
I can't stand Oliver with his mockney tendencies. Did he invent Pukka pies?
He's got a very big tongue.
-
I can't stand Oliver with his mockney tendencies. Did he invent Pukka pies?
He's got a very big tongue.
Its why his wife stays with him.
-
The Mon PR machine is revving up its engine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909)
-
The Mon PR machine is revving up its engine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909)
'I Saved the club when it was on its knees' says mon?
He spend £25m plus and they are no better now than when he took the job- if anything worse! He certainly left them on their knees.
I'm sure pat murphy was drooling as he questioned his old mate!
-
The Mon PR machine is revving up its engine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909)
Saving the club when it was on its knees? He spend £25m plus and they are no better now than when he took the job- if anything worse!
I'm sure pat murphy was drooling as he questioned his old mate!
I have no doubt that the full interview will be a no holds barred sporting equivalent of Frost Nixon....
-
The Mon PR machine is revving up its engine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22037909)Pat Murphy did the interview.I bet MON asked for him to do it.
-
I never shared the hatred shown towards MON, but having seen snippets of the interview I find it hard to have an ounce of sympathy towards him in his current predicament.
-
Funny how he soon blabs about his prediciment after getting the bullet....wonder how much it cost previous employers to get him to keep his gob shut.
He is totally gutless and in a season with very few highlights this has been one for me....
but like the Murphy's I'm not Bitter!!
Brand O'Neill the byword for damaged goods!
-
I think Oliver has got better in recent years. Could never watch him in the past due to the unbearable mockney overload. But when I watched his 15/30 minute meals show, I thought he had calmed down a tad. Some useful tips picked up too!
-
I think both sides of the MON/Sunderland story are exaggerated. Basically he took over a side in danger of relegation, spent a couple of years there, spent some money and left a side in danger of relegation. He took over a very average squad and left a very average squad where his biggest signings may or may not turn out to have been good value in the longer term. Pat Murphy is in spin heaven whatever happens. If they go down it is because they sacked him and if they stay up it is because it is his team. Personally I thought they looked the most likely to go down with Reading and QPR when MON was in charge and I haven't changed my mind now Di Canio is there.
-
Disagree to an extent Damo. He inherited a decent side. In fact, Bruce was sacked because it was thought the squad were underacheiving. Not to mention he has spent 30m+ on players this season, yet they are arguably in a worse state then when he took over. The myth has finally been exposed in the minds of many. Although as you point out, his media chums are doing their best to salvage his reputation. If they go down, it is Short's fault for sacking him. If they stay up, they will claim nothing has been gained as MON would've kept them up anyway.
-
I think he took over a very average side. Where he went wrong was by trying to put that right with two or three big signings when whatever money available needed to be spread over more positions in my opinion.
-
He took over a Sunderland side that had played 13 games and was 16th, 1 point off the bottom 3. 56 games later he leaves them in 16th place and 1 point off the bottom 3.
How can anyone doubt the myth, the man, the MON?
-
I think both sides of the MON/Sunderland story are exaggerated. Basically he took over a side in danger of relegation, spent a couple of years there, spent some money and left a side in danger of relegation. He took over a very average squad and left a very average squad where his biggest signings may or may not turn out to have been good value in the longer term. Pat Murphy is in spin heaven whatever happens. If they go down it is because they sacked him and if they stay up it is because it is his team. Personally I thought they looked the most likely to go down with Reading and QPR when MON was in charge and I haven't changed my mind now Di Canio is there.
He spent 15 months on wearside and in all honesty left a team behind thats just as bad as the side he took over - spending the best part of £30m in the process.
-
Pat Murphy / Colin Murray love in, I wanna puke. About to hear the 22 mins of MON, let's see what he has to say....
-
I think Oliver has got better in recent years. Could never watch him in the past due to the unbearable mockney overload. But when I watched his 15/30 minute meals show, I thought he had calmed down a tad. Some useful tips picked up too!
I remember the first computer me and my first wife ever had back in 1996 ( we were late starters)
Anyway she loved Jamie Oliver and so we put in 'the naked chef ' only to be greeted by all the Percy filth the Internet had to offer, great days
-
a summary of MON's fireside chat with Murphy on Radio 5 -
- deserved the chance to keep SAFC up again, never been relegated in 20 yrs
- should have won 3 more games
- turned Villa into a brilliant side having kept us up in first season
- intends to manage again, age not a barrier
- Adam Johnson should've done better
- appeared to have little respect for Di Canio, never met him
- angry that Murphy perceived him as a good starter at a club and then allows club to drift
- bragged about success at Celtic
- bragged about time at Villa (top 6 for 3 seasons etc etc, you know the script)
- Sunderland tense and tentative, flat
- bigged up bringing in SAFC forward coach Steve Guppy! I kid you not.
came across as defensive, subdued, bit like a defeated politician having just been ousted by the Lib Dems in a safe Tory seat. The bloke lost his mojo a long time ago and is yesterday's news now.
-
Did Brian McDermott or Nigel Adkins run to the nearest TV station a week after getting the tin tack? Don't think so.
MON - a has-been 80s relic, with the shiny gloss and plaster all crumbing to the floor exposing the dry rot underneath.
"I didn't deserve the sack?" Oh, diddums...
-
a summary of MON's fireside chat with Murphy on Radio 5 -
- deserved the chance to keep SAFC up again, never been relegated in 20 yrs
He left Villa in a state where we have been fighting relegation for 3 seasons and Sunderland will probably end up being relegated. Well done Martin for preserving your personal record!
-
Well you can't keep a good delusional ego-maniac down for long. Good to see he's feeling better.
-
Its about now that MON will realise that you should be nice to people on your way up, because you will pass them on your way back down.
-
Yesterday's Man
-
I've been driving 20 years and never had an accident, seen loads in the rear view mirror though!
-
The fact that Sunderland fans are repeating us almost verbatim after his departure says all you need to hear.
-
Who's that whose career's over the hill?
Is it a MONster, is it a MONster?
-
a summary of MON's fireside chat with Murphy on Radio 5 -
- deserved the chance to keep SAFC up again, never been relegated in 20 yrs
- should have won 3 more games
- turned Villa into a brilliant side having kept us up in first season
- intends to manage again, age not a barrier
- Adam Johnson should've done better
- appeared to have little respect for Di Canio, never met him
- angry that Murphy perceived him as a good starter at a club and then allows club to drift
- bragged about success at Celtic
- bragged about time at Villa (top 6 for 3 seasons etc etc, you know the script)
- Sunderland tense and tentative, flat
- bigged up bringing in SAFC forward coach Steve Guppy! I kid you not.
came across as defensive, subdued, bit like a defeated politician having just been ousted by the Lib Dems in a safe Tory seat. The bloke lost his mojo a long time ago and is yesterday's news now.
I didnt hear the whole thing but what I did hear (high lights) he didnt once wish Sunderland well or thank the fans (who have supported him through this bad period). I think he is an egomaniac. Treats Sunderland fans the way he treated us when he left here, like we were nothing, just a stepping stone.
-
I think he took over a very average side. Where he went wrong was by trying to put that right with two or three big signings when whatever money available needed to be spread over more positions in my opinion.
True.
The thing is, that is Martin's biggest problem every time, isn't it?
Doesn't seem to understand the concept of looking abroad for better value for your money.
Pat Murphy was engaging in some truly stomach churning defence of O'Neill, suggesting he'd basically not had enough money as the side was far too weak. The obvious question is, how many managers, with "only" £30m to spend, and a really weak side, would go and spend almost the lot on Adam Johnson, Steven Fletcher and Danny Graham?
It's like having 100 quid to eat for the week, but then complaining when you've spunked it all away by Thursday, as you've been spending it on overpriced guff down at Harrods food hall.
-
Surprised to hear he still has the hunger to manage - his comments about ferguson are wrong though- while fergie may be the oldest he has adapted to the modern game and evolved whereas martin is still in a 80s time warp.
Look how he played he same side same tactics week in week out at villa, when it was clear some players were out on their feet , whereas fergie rotates to get the maximum from his players.
-
It tell you how bloody good is Alex Ferguson in moving on and changing the team and keep it fresh and winning. I believe if MON adapt his methods and use oversea market more and be more resourceful he will still be a Villa Manager.
-
Just sums up the guy's ego really comparing himself to Ferguson. Ferguson has been at the top since the late 80's. MON on the other hand buggered up north to a league where you only had to finish above one team to win everything. Then he took over a team with low expectations, was given the biggest transfer budget in its history and finished no higher than the last clown. I'd agree Sunderland weren't loaded with top players when he arrived there but still some improvement should have been possible. Not really comparable with Ferguson i reckon. Darren Ferguson mebbe.
-
Creature.
-
A Championship club beckons...
-
A Championship club beckons...
I think he will be desperate to get the everton job if moyes moves on.
-
The manager who always looks
greener better from the other side of the fence. Perhaps I was right the first time as he has always thought other managers had been dealt better hands than himself. Making believe you are working with crap makes you look a better manager. The envious git.
-
The interview with him is on Football Focus now. He seemed genuinely surprised when asked why his teams start well and then seem to fizzle out and replied with "Where did you get that from? Where did you get that from?".
-
4 people out of 100 reckon di canio will keep Sunderland up on football focus.
lets hope the 96 are right ;)
-
I once got a word copy of one of Jamie Oliver's books before it was published. Still got it somewhere. Somebody at the publishers sent it to his mate, who then decided to share it with a few of their friends, etc.
-
ReadyToGo.net has a 39 page match thread on our game today.
Makes quite amusing reading.
-
ReadyToGo.net has a 39 page match thread on our game today.
Makes quite amusing reading.
I will head there shortly after my celebratory fish and chips:)
-
How much on him being Stoke manager by the end of the week. Flat cap greyhound breeder will be a goner tonight after how poor they are.
-
ReadyToGo.net has a 39 page match thread on our game today.
Makes quite amusing reading.
Eh?! More than ours! Why?!
-
They do only seem to have about six posts per page.
-
Funny that he's dismissing the comments about him being a dinosaur by bringing up Alex Ferguson's age, as if that's the only thing being brought into question. Is he actually that stupid, or does he take people for complete idiots?
-
Peddling the same aul pish about Cloughie.
Always amazes me that such a Cloughie disciple didn't see fit to follow Ol' Big Ead's ideas about football being entertainment, and that the ball should spend more time on the grass than in the sky.
As for Fergiescum, as others have mentioned, he adapted to the times. Originally a 4-4-2 merchant reliant on wingers, he wasn't too proud to bring in coaches with different ideas and different beliefs. Something O'Neill would never have done.
-
You are correct about Fergie bringing in coaches to give him new ideas, probably because he realised from getting regularly stuffed in Europe that he needed them.
But Fergie was forced into getting these coaches in when others left for managerial jobs, it is not like he decided to get rid of them himself to ring in the changes.
(And having the money and pull to get most players in the world does help as well.)
-
He could still have gone the route of "I'm Alex Ferguson, I've won countless titles playing 4-4-2, so I'll keep on doing it."
He didn't. And -as much as it sticks in the craw- he deserves credit for being bold enough to go with upcoming coaches like McLaren and Queiroz, rather than just giving jobs to his mates.
-
Peddling the same aul pish about Cloughie.
Always amazes me that such a Cloughie disciple didn't see fit to follow Ol' Big Ead's ideas about football being entertainment, and that the ball should spend more time on the grass than in the sky.
As for Fergiescum, as others have mentioned, he adapted to the times. Originally a 4-4-2 merchant reliant on wingers, he wasn't too proud to bring in coaches with different ideas and different beliefs. Something O'Neill would never have done.
Yep, despite most people who knew Clough admitting that by the end of his managerial career in the early 90's his methods were way out of date. It is O'Neill's constant failure to build a squad and rotate players that is one of his biggest downfalls. I guess he didn't really need to do it at Celtic, as their players could coast through games against the weaker sides, but it is a necessity in the Premiership and he has failed to do it year after year.
-
He just needs to shut the fuck up. He's been rumbled and this was his last hurrah in the PL because I very much doubt any other club will have the stomach to give him a chance. Unless the chairman is nuts he'll see with us over a longer period and with Sunderland how he has managed to blow many millions and leave those clubs in poor financial condition for very little actually achieved. He's even being called out by some pundits that were traditionally in his corner. Expect Murphy and Holt that is who remain blind to the obvious.
MON had his chance and for all of the stories of Clough he'll never, ever come close to being Clough. He just needs to accept that now and move on.
-
I was actually a bit surprised at that interview. Murphy, to be fair, asked most of the tough questions. Would still like to hear why Marty has such an aversion to foreign signings and a propensity for over-priced English ones but that will have to wait, I guess.
And it wasn't difficult to warm a bit to O'Neill (for the first time since God knows) given his thoughtful and considered answers. He did seem to be chastened by Sunderland's poor form and accepts they should have won more games.
The key part for me was near the end when he mentioned how Sunderland won some games under him last year that they were fortunate to...one thing about O'Neill when he was with us, he never accepted that we had been lucky despite more than a few unconvincing wins (that Hull away game when we nearly conceded a penalty in the last minute; Heskey's debut at Portsmouth where they were camped in our half for most of the second half etc.). It's as if his fighting spirit and complete faith in his players had waned at Sunderland compared to his time with us. Fair enough, we had better players and were genuine top four candidates but maybe he's learned to be a bit more circumspect. Had to laugh at his assertion that some of his training techniques had been imitated by many other coaches and that Steve Guppy's specialised wingplay coaching was inspired. Adam Johnson presumably not the best example of that.
He really is quite a curious man. He went up in my estimation last year after the game with Sunderland at VP when he actually apologised for the haste in which he left. A bit of leftover guilt from taking money from the club at the tribunal hearing perhaps. Or just a bit of good old humility for once. I still think he's been long over-championed in the press and by other supporters. Not that he's a bad manager either but things went stale very quickly for him at Sunderland which must be a worry for him despite his apparent hunger for another job. Fair play Martin, Celtic was as good as it got for you but we probably presented your best opportunity and your ego prevented you from carrying on. You'll never have it that good again.
-
It has been quoted by more than one source in the media that his time was up after meeting with the owner recently to discuss recent performances and results. He put his case for how hard he was going to work to turn things around and his confidence in doing so. He apparently followed that up by not showing his face in training for the following three days.
-
a summary of MON's fireside chat with Murphy on Radio 5 -
- deserved the chance to keep SAFC up again, never been relegated in 20 yrs
- should have won 3 more games
- turned Villa into a brilliant side having kept us up in first season
- intends to manage again, age not a barrier
- Adam Johnson should've done better
- appeared to have little respect for Di Canio, never met him
- angry that Murphy perceived him as a good starter at a club and then allows club to drift
- bragged about success at Celtic
- bragged about time at Villa (top 6 for 3 seasons etc etc, you know the script)
- Sunderland tense and tentative, flat
- bigged up bringing in SAFC forward coach Steve Guppy! I kid you not.
came across as defensive, subdued, bit like a defeated politician having just been ousted by the Lib Dems in a safe Tory seat. The bloke lost his mojo a long time ago and is yesterday's news now.
Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!
-
I seem to remember MoN saying that as a fan of Black Adder he had a very cunning plan, but I can't remember if he assigned a letter of the alphabet to it.
-
Without an outright defence of MON, I have never subscribed to the idea that he was spiteful in leaving us, he had his reasons and they may be honourable.
But his reluctance in explaining the reason for his departure, and his alacrity in running to the press when he was wronged has made me loose the respect I had for him.
He may not have owed us as far as his position is concerned, but he still owes us an explanation and while we wait, one can only think the worst of him.
-
I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.
-
Without an outright defence of MON, I have never subscribed to the idea that he was spiteful in leaving us, he had his reasons and they may be honourable.
Well, Nev, "spiteful and vindictive" are the two words I have consistently used. The reasons?
(i) he had lost the love for the job probably back in March-April but waited for a tipping point that was of maximum damage to the club; and (ii) he didn't acknowledge the fans or the club whatsoever during / after leaving.
I cannot accept that he didn't know what he was doing,
-
Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!
To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.
If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?
Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".
I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.
-
I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.
The one he left had finished in the top six for three years.
The following seasons did nothing to improve their value, nor did every club knowing we had to cut our wage bill.
Its a difficult think to estimate, Sidwell left for peanuts but after the season he's had, he's probably worth three million. So does that mean he was worth that three years ago? or worth nothing because he left us for a nominal fee?
Ashley Young I doubt anyone would pay united 18 million for him now, so is his value £10 million or the £18 million we got for him?
It really all depends on whose paper these figures are. In my opinion the 2010 bunch was worth more on paper.
I take your point though, its a lot closer than it should be, because of the age and potential of some of our players.
I'd say we have gotten more value for transfer funds spent this year.
-
Nev is right in saying that unless he comes out with his side of the story the spiteful thing will always be thrown at him regarding the timing of his departure. My personal opinion is that from the start of the calender year he was being told the way things were going to be in future, but as someone accustomed to getting his own way he was confident he would continue to get his own way until it was proven otherwise. I still appreciate the job he did and don't accept that everything negative in the last three seasons should be put down to him.
-
Nev is right in saying that unless he comes out with his side of the story the spiteful thing will always be thrown at him regarding the timing of his departure.
I'd expect silence from both parties would be in the terms of the out-of-court settlement.
-
Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!
To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.
If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?
Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".
I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.
True but in the end it costs you.
Season 09/10 we won 7 home games playing the way we played. Spurs won I think 14.
-
I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.
The one he left had finished in the top six for three years.
The following seasons did nothing to improve their value, nor did every club knowing we had to cut our wage bill.
Its a difficult think to estimate, Sidwell left for peanuts but after the season he's had, he's probably worth three million. So does that mean he was worth that three years ago? or worth nothing because he left us for a nominal fee?
Ashley Young I doubt anyone would pay united 18 million for him now, so is his value £10 million or the £18 million we got for him?
It really all depends on whose paper these figures are. In my opinion the 2010 bunch was worth more on paper.
I take your point though, its a lot closer than it should be, because of the age and potential of some of our players.
I'd say we have gotten more value for transfer funds spent this year.
I meant at the time he left. Point being he spent massive money on fees and wages, and 3 years later all that remains down to him is Delph pretty much, and apart from 2 players most of what has gone has done at a loss. I actually think this squad would be worth more if put up for sale tomorrow, even in our current position, which is crazy. //his forward planning was startlingly bad.
-
Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!
To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.
If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?
Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".
I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.
True but in the end it costs you.
Season 09/10 we won 7 home games playing the way we played. Spurs won I think 14.
Strange to pick a mid table side as the example.
A backup plan doesn't have to be a complete change in style. Mon's main flaws were that he seemed to have prepared his subs before kick off and, barring injury, the game never really had any say. It happened for weeks you can check it out by looking for 'nearly heskey-time' (or similar phrases) on match threads from the time.
For example, you have a target man who's being doubled up on and struggling to get into the game, so you let him drift a bit deeper and push someone else onto the last defender, make the other team/manager make a decision, does the centre back come out with the big guy and leave a gap or does one of your midfielders drop deeper?
It's micro changes like that which make all the difference and mon never did those other than getting the wingers to switch sides every now and then.
-
It has been quoted by more than one source in the media that his time was up after meeting with the owner recently to discuss recent performances and results. He put his case for how hard he was going to work to turn things around and his confidence in doing so. He apparently followed that up by not showing his face in training for the following three days.
Kinda ties in with this:
clicktown (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/chelsea-vs-sunderland-paolo-di-1815629)
“We are going to practice much more than in the past because, obviously, I received some notice about what has happened in the last few weeks. The way we are planning to work with the players will be more intensive.
“When a footballer is working only one or two hours and they have 22 hours’ free time, how can you give them Sunday off, Wednesday off?"
-
When Houliier made similar changes here to MON's outgoing reign, he had severe injury and player revolt problems. Let's hope the same thing happens at Sunderland in the next 6 games.
-
I wonder if, discounting Milner as he was as good as sold when he left, which squad is worth more on paper, the current, or the one he left.
The one he left had finished in the top six for three years.
The following seasons did nothing to improve their value, nor did every club knowing we had to cut our wage bill.
Its a difficult think to estimate, Sidwell left for peanuts but after the season he's had, he's probably worth three million. So does that mean he was worth that three years ago? or worth nothing because he left us for a nominal fee?
Ashley Young I doubt anyone would pay united 18 million for him now, so is his value £10 million or the £18 million we got for him?
It really all depends on whose paper these figures are. In my opinion the 2010 bunch was worth more on paper.
I take your point though, its a lot closer than it should be, because of the age and potential of some of our players.
I'd say we have gotten more value for transfer funds spent this year.
I meant at the time he left. Point being he spent massive money on fees and wages, and 3 years later all that remains down to him is Delph pretty much, and apart from 2 players most of what has gone has done at a loss. I actually think this squad would be worth more if put up for sale tomorrow, even in our current position, which is crazy. //his forward planning was startlingly bad.
Yeah no argument on that score. I just thought that even though its true that most of Warnock, Collins, L Young Friedal, Sidwell Reo Coker, left for nothing, in 2010 (on paper) they were worth more than that.
-
Big thing for me from that interview was MON's barely held disgust when Murphy mentioned the plan B topic and whether MON had one. The response was O'neill arguing whether manager's should even have another gameplan in their locker!
To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'm not sure if that is a bad thing.
If you have a philosophy of how you want your team to play, as long as things are generally going well is it wise to change it?
Take Swansea, they have a specific way of playing - if they are one goal down with ten minutes to go, is it going to be better or worse for them in the long term if Laudrup/Rogers were to say "actually boys, fuck it - what I told you was the best way to play is wrong, just lump it up and let Michu/Danny Graham get the flick on".
I'd agree that there are specific bits of tinkering to be made depending on your opponent, but if there is a way you want your team to play then you should probably stick to it.
I agree with most of that, and recall saying similar when the talk of 'no plan B' first started doing the rounds back in about 2009. The (oh so imaginative) example I used though was Barcelona, they wouldn't just start hoofing it long if plan A wasn't working.
I guess the lesson there is if you only have one way of playing, make sure it's a damn good one.
-
And to flip it on its head, if the way that you play your football is "pass it wide, cross it as well and as often as you can" (which when done well can be very entertaining and exciting) then the players that you would use to do that aren't the same ones as you'd pick to play intricate little triangles at the edge of the penalty area.
-
True.
For a brief period when Ash was coming to prominence and Laursen was fit and pretty much unstoppable in both penalty areas, the plan was extremely effective.
Even if the style wasn't always a joy to behold (though like you, I have an appreciation for wingplay too) once you get a two goal jump on teams they often fold. Or have little choice but to attack -which left us with plenty of space on the counter.
-
Kevin's last line is the key. If you're going to think your tactic is so good that it will work often enough that you don't need any backup then the results need to back that up.
If you don't win enough games to reach your goals then your tactics clearly aren't as good as you thought.
-
If a manager had only one tactic in his bag, they really shouldn't be managing a five-a-side team, let alone one in the Premier League.
-
Fascist Bill's comments on the fitness and preparation of Sunderland tie in with a lot of what we heard whispered when MON was here too. Strange indeed.
-
Fascist Bill's comments on the fitness and preparation of Sunderland tie in with a lot of what we heard whispered when MON was here too. Strange indeed.
I think we heard everything from being overworked in training to no tactical preparation.
Personally, I just think he was overrated.
-
Di canio has hit out at sunderlands lack of fitness - another swipe at the o Neill reign .
Paolo Di Canio last night took a swipe at his predecessor Martin O’Neill by claiming the Sunderland players are not fit enough.
He admitted his new team could not last the pace after surrendering a half-time lead at Chelsea, and insisted he will have to work them much harder if they are to stop their alarming slide towards the drop zone.
“It’s not the fittest team in the world,” said Di Canio. “But we are going to work and give them more energy in the next few days and weeks.
“It was impossible because physically we spent a lot of energy in the first half, we had fantastic discipline, the players are working hard.
“This team at this moment is not a team that can play Chelsea for 95 minutes. In the next few weeks we will do more work and extend the physical condition.
-
Di canio has hit out at sunderlands lack of fitness - another swipe at the o Neill reign .
Paolo Di Canio last night took a swipe at his predecessor Martin O’Neill by claiming the Sunderland players are not fit enough.
He admitted his new team could not last the pace after surrendering a half-time lead at Chelsea, and insisted he will have to work them much harder if they are to stop their alarming slide towards the drop zone.
“It’s not the fittest team in the world,” said Di Canio. “But we are going to work and give them more energy in the next few days and weeks.
“It was impossible because physically we spent a lot of energy in the first half, we had fantastic discipline, the players are working hard.
“This team at this moment is not a team that can play Chelsea for 95 minutes. In the next few weeks we will do more work and extend the physical condition.
Wow wow - what a shock. MON not fit - probably because he overplays the same ones week in week out.
When he was managing Celtic even then they were pipped at the end for a few trophies by Rangers IIRC (2 Leagues and a couple of cups).
Thankfully Lambert played in Germany so hopefully we don't have that bad habit. Their players seem to bounce through major tournaments at the end of seasons - until they play Spain or Italy that is.
-
makes you wonder what Bibs and Cones have been doing all this time while MON is keeping his feet warm ringing around to see who can be his next overpaid overaged british signing
but then Cones isn't there anymore and there's only so much you can do with a few bibs
-
Di canio has hit out at sunderlands lack of fitness - another swipe at the o Neill reign .
Paolo Di Canio last night took a swipe at his predecessor Martin O’Neill by claiming the Sunderland players are not fit enough.
He admitted his new team could not last the pace after surrendering a half-time lead at Chelsea, and insisted he will have to work them much harder if they are to stop their alarming slide towards the drop zone.
“It’s not the fittest team in the world,” said Di Canio. “But we are going to work and give them more energy in the next few days and weeks.
“It was impossible because physically we spent a lot of energy in the first half, we had fantastic discipline, the players are working hard.
“This team at this moment is not a team that can play Chelsea for 95 minutes. In the next few weeks we will do more work and extend the physical condition.
Exactly the same thing Houllier complained about when he joined. Of course he ended up alienating most of our senior players by telling them they were fat bastards. Dunne and Collins in particular didn't like that.
It doesn't surprise me to be honest. I do think if the attitude of some of Sunderlands more big headed experienced players is the same as some of ours from 2 years ago, PDC will struggle to keep the dressing room on side. That said, with his character he's gonna alienate most of them at some point any how.
But who cares, he'll be managing them in the championship next season. ;)
-
A comment on the Sunderland forum:
Re: Villa
Villa have Bent and Benteke to choose from, we have Graham and Wickham. Di Canio will have to make quite an impact to get us out of the shite. O'Neill has fucked us over good and proper, the Jan transfer window was a nightmare.
Read more: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=772504&highlight=villa#ixzz2Ptz3VJgJ
-
Di canio has hit out at sunderlands lack of fitness - another swipe at the o Neill reign .
Paolo Di Canio last night took a swipe at his predecessor Martin O’Neill by claiming the Sunderland players are not fit enough.
He admitted his new team could not last the pace after surrendering a half-time lead at Chelsea, and insisted he will have to work them much harder if they are to stop their alarming slide towards the drop zone.
“It’s not the fittest team in the world,” said Di Canio. “But we are going to work and give them more energy in the next few days and weeks.
“It was impossible because physically we spent a lot of energy in the first half, we had fantastic discipline, the players are working hard.
“This team at this moment is not a team that can play Chelsea for 95 minutes. In the next few weeks we will do more work and extend the physical condition.
Invest in Red Bull shares, a large order coming in from the North East apparently.
-
Anyone notice this on the Sky commentary last night?
'The last team to keep a clean sheet at Old Trafford in the league was Martinoniellsastonvilla'
&
'The last team to win at Old Trafford was Tottenham Hotspur'
sigh
-
Thankfully Lambert played in Germany so hopefully we don't have that bad habit. Their players seem to bounce through major tournaments at the end of seasons - until they play Spain or Italy that is.
Funny, our predilection for conceding late on and / or from winning positions did make me wonder whether the fitness regime under Lambert was flawed ...
-
A comment on the Sunderland forum:
Re: Villa
Villa have Bent and Benteke to choose from, we have Graham and Wickham. Di Canio will have to make quite an impact to get us out of the shite. O'Neill has fucked us over good and proper, the Jan transfer window was a nightmare.
Read more: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=772504&highlight=villa#ixzz2Ptz3VJgJ
I cant help but read that site with a Sid The Sexist voice in my head.
-
Anyone notice this on the Sky commentary last night?
'The last team to keep a clean sheet at Old Trafford in the league was Martinoniellsastonvilla'
sigh
In fairness to MON that result at ManU for me was the biggest highlight of his tenure here.
-
Anyone notice this on the Sky commentary last night?
'The last team to keep a clean sheet at Old Trafford in the league was Martinoniellsastonvilla'
sigh
In fairness to MON that result at ManU for me was the biggest highlight of his tenure here.
5-1 over blues for me but there were a few great games in his reign.
3-2 at everton , 6-4 blackburn too and plenty more.
-
Anyone notice this on the Sky commentary last night?
'The last team to keep a clean sheet at Old Trafford in the league was Martinoniellsastonvilla'
sigh
In fairness to MON that result at ManU for me was the biggest highlight of his tenure here.
5-1 over blues for me but there were a few great games in his reign.
3-2 at everton , 6-4 blackburn too and plenty more.
The 5-1 I can understand but 3-2 at Everton highlighted everything that was wrong with Villa under O'Neill, 10 minutes to go 2-1 up and defending deeper and deeper no clue as to what to do next, thanks fuck for Ashley Young because O'Neill had nothing to do with that result.
-
Too true. How many times we would get to 60 minutes and just sit on a single goal lead. Never killing sides off.
Hell we create more chances now in our shoddy state.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
The leads lost & late conceding goals is true, but I don't think we tire like we did under O'Neill. We seem to be getting stronger as the season progresses.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
With this team I don't think it's a fitness issue. We certainly looked the more sprightly side at the end of Saturdays' game.
I don't remember too many people disagreeing with Terry's comment at the time.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
With this team I don't think it's a fitness issue. We certainly looked the more sprightly side at the end of Saturdays' game.
I don't remember too many people disagreeing with Terry's comment at the time.
I just remember thinking that however true it was, to crow about it was totally lacking in class. Even more so after such a convincing win.
Can you imagine if after a Chelsea defeat the opposition came out and said "yeah we targeted Terry because he's old slow and past his best". They'd be rightly slaughtered by the press. His tackle on Milner summed him up.
-
We all know Terry has no class.
As for us tiring, MON just didn't do any proper training and it showed. Our poor March record was down to that too, no doubt.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
The leads lost & late conceding goals is true, but I don't think we tire like we did under O'Neill. We seem to be getting stronger as the season progresses.
And
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
With this team I don't think it's a fitness issue. We certainly looked the more sprightly side at the end of Saturdays' game.
Yep, you’re both right; I withdraw my last comment.
-
Di Canio's comments about fitness levels at Sunderland brought back to mind Terry's comments, that went along the lines of 'with Villa you just have to keep them out for 60 minutes and they run out of steam'.
True, and isn't Lambert's Villa prone to do the same? - leads lost, goals conceded, etc.
With this team I don't think it's a fitness issue. We certainly looked the more sprightly side at the end of Saturdays' game.
I don't remember too many people disagreeing with Terry's comment at the time.
I hope it's a weakness we overcome as we evolve under Lambert.
But then I hoped that -with time- we'd become more composed and better on the ball under O'Neill to close games out. And that never materialised.
There is no guarantee that Lambert will nail the defensive weakspots in his approach, Norwich's defensive record was pretty dismal too. Perhaps it's just the price you pay for a more attacking brand of football. The hope is that with better resources (players), our problems in that regard get ironed out after the close season.
I'd be interested to know if Bennett has been asked to hold back a bit more too, he's looked better in recent games. Or -more accurately- we haven't had a big gaping hole down our left hand side for teams to drive two coachloads down anytime they want. It's a question worth asking. Specific, rather than bland questions that let Lambert just trade in soundbites (not having a pop, most managers are the same).
-
I like our recent new take on defending narrow leads - just go and score another one.
-
Or two!!
-
Adrian Durham should prepare to be sued.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3535308/Martin-O-Neill-share-blame-Aston-Villa-s-sorry-demise-club-s-rot-started-reckless-spending.html
-
Wtf bought this back to remind me....
-
As much as I was / am in the anti-O'Neill camp, it's a bit rich for him to be telling the fans to move on after spending the first half of the article slagging off a manager who left almost 6 years ago.
-
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
Young Doug? Christ.
He's not Young Doug now he is Doug. Retreats.
-
Thanks for your incisive input Adrian. There must be a shortage of phone in fools to talk to.
-
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
Young Doug? Christ.
He's not Young Doug now he is Doug. Retreats.
Anyone remember that fanzine comic strip called Young Doug?
-
Adrian Durham should prepare to be sued.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3535308/Martin-O-Neill-share-blame-Aston-Villa-s-sorry-demise-club-s-rot-started-reckless-spending.html
Absolute crock of shite. We have made a few poor decisions since MON walked
-
Adrian Durham should prepare to be sued.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3535308/Martin-O-Neill-share-blame-Aston-Villa-s-sorry-demise-club-s-rot-started-reckless-spending.html
Absolute crock of shite. We have made a few poor decisions since MON walked
The MON walkout sowed the seeds for RL's loss of interest in the club; it presaged the cost-cutting ethos we've seen since; it left behind a host of highly-paid journeymen that sucked in resources that could have been used more usefully.
Yes, there have been some terrible decisions since; but they are anchored in the events of August 2010.
Sad, sad, sad.
-
He was ambitious, Young Doug isn't as ambitious, so he walked. Poor timing I will concede that.
Young Doug? Christ.
He's not Young Doug now he is Doug. Retreats.
Anyone remember that fanzine comic strip called Young Doug?
I do and I'm not that old.
-
He's not wrong. We spent the best part of £200m and a couple of years after he left we'd made about half of it back and had a squad that wasn't fit for purpose and that's not even touching on the crippling wage bill that he left.
There have been poor decisions since he left, McLeish and his signings of Hutton, Given and Nzogbia at the forefront of those, but we've been on shaky foundations for years and they were laid by MON.
-
But there have been plenty of opportunities to fix the foundations. If the MON experience was all it took to make Lerner flounce off with his ball then he really was the wrong man from the beginning.
-
But there have been plenty of opportunities to fix the foundations. If the MON experience was all it took to make Lerner flounce off with his ball then he really was the wrong man from the beginning.
Of course there were and, as I said, we made subsequent mistakes, but at the heart of those mistakes has been the need to get the club into the black. There's a fair argument that he should've been reigned in much sooner, but look at how people have talked about Lerner since he stopped throwing money at it and it's pretty clear that he'd have been given shit if he had given MON backing in that 3rd summer which would've been the right time to do something about it.
-
I would argue (and have done) that the damage MON inflicted on Lerner's bank balance was less than the damage he inflicted on his head. Randy was clearly mentally wounded by the way MON conducted himself at the end, having put so much trust in him only to have it booted back in his face with lawsuits to follow. Obviously giving him that much trust and that much money was extremely foolish and it's easy to say that Randy should have been more hard-nosed and business-like about it all. But as we can clearly see, Randy isn't much of a businessman; we have also seen that he's a sensitive soul, so being stung by a litigious little bastard like MON hurt him very deeply. We've never really recovered from MON flouncing out. He left behind a financial disaster, but with sound leadership we should have recovered from that by now. His real legacy was a broken owner.
-
That article is a load of old cock.
I'll never criticise anyone for being pissed off with the way MON left.
I will say though that his effect surely had to end once we'd finished 9th the season after he did leave.
Let's look at the sticks people use to beat MON with.
Left us with no money?
Broke our record signing (double it nearly). Paid Nzogbia, Bent, Given, & increased Gabby to over 50k contracts. Rubbish.
Left us with a poor ageing squad with no sell on value?
Sold: 3 biggest. A Young, Downing, and Delph. 18m, 20m, and £8m so £46m in all, it's fair to say performed very well and contributed to the club after MON went and during his time. Others sold for fees. Davies £3.5m, Collins £2.0m, Luke Young £2.5m.
So over £50m recouped and I think all bar L. Young were under 30 when sold? Many others went for free. Dunne, Reo Coker etc. However, I see this as a problem the club have had for some time and have continued with since. Since MON, the only player we have bought who we have turned a profit on has been Benteke. It's not only players MON signed that seem to go for nothing. Given, Bent, Nzogbia, Makoun, Vlaar, Ireland. I can't beat MON with that stick either.
-
He's not wrong. We spent the best part of £200m and a couple of years after he left we'd made about half of it back and had a squad that wasn't fit for purpose and that's not even touching on the crippling wage bill that he left.
There have been poor decisions since he left, McLeish and his signings of Hutton, Given and Nzogbia at the forefront of those, but we've been on shaky foundations for years and they were laid by MON.
MON leaving put the club into a tailspin from which it hasn't recovered. It was recoverable, but subsequent poor decisions have landed us where we are now. I think the real damage was done by letting Lambert stay on too long. By the time he left, the club was heading only one way.
-
O Neill is a toss clown and the manner in which he left was shit but all I'll say in fairness to him is that he at least walked out as opposed to waiting around for the tin-tack I suppose. We've had managers since piss and moan about the cards they've been dealt when they were either in the job, or shortly after leaving. They seemed to want out but obviously waited until getting the bullet to collect their full compo package. Quite how O Neill end up with his hefty severance package having walked out of his job I don't know and I guess we'll never know the full story on that.
Still, this was 6 years ago almost. O Neill isn't the reason we're going down. If we're gonna blame him we might as well blame Doug Ellis, or hell we might as well blame the four founders for even starting the club given that we'd ultimately lead to arguably the most numbingly shit season in our history some 150 odd years later.
No the fact is that Randy has overseen a terrible decline through naivety, mis-management, ignorance, through to plain dis-interest and everything in between. He signed off on O Neill's checks, and Houllier's, McLeish's and beyond. He spent 50 million in the summer and we're left with a squad of absolute drek. That comes down to several factors. Who he hires as manager. Everyone involved in our transfer process from Reilly to the scouts. The board he recruited post O Neill. From Faulkner to Fox and every lacky that went with them it was a failure. We've ripped it up and started again (and hopefully got it at least a bit right now).
Also as far as our ins and outs have gone, O Neill has probably had the most success in terms of recouping fees. At least he made a significant wedge with Young, Downing and Milner compared to what we paid for each. Since then we've made a significant wedge on Benteke and that's pretty much it. Delph only went for 8. Other than that we tend to haemorrhage players we've paid shitloads of wages for, for nothing. Look at Lambert's signings. We got rid of the vast majority of his second summer signings they were all so fucking disastrous. They may not be the financial hit that a Coker (who wasn't that bad to be fair) was, but to take so many players in and then bin them so soon after is ridiculous, whether you pay 1 mill or 8 mill for a player, and we're gonna see that this summer two. Most of last summers signings will go and probably would be put up for sale even had we survived. No we've gone from O Neill's mediocre transfer record to absolutely fucking shambolic transfer records.
-
I would argue (and have done) that the damage MON inflicted on Lerner's bank balance was less than the damage he inflicted on his head. Randy was clearly mentally wounded by the way MON conducted himself at the end, having put so much trust in him only to have it booted back in his face with lawsuits to follow. Obviously giving him that much trust and that much money was extremely foolish and it's easy to say that Randy should have been more hard-nosed and business-like about it all. But as we can clearly see, Randy isn't much of a businessman; we have also seen that he's a sensitive soul, so being stung by a litigious little bastard like MON hurt him very deeply. We've never really recovered from MON flouncing out. He left behind a financial disaster, but with sound leadership we should have recovered from that by now. His real legacy was a broken owner.
I don't think O Neill would have been adverse to tighter restrictions from the very beginning. Before us he'd never had a big transfer budget. He was given as many chips as he wanted for the table and granted pissed a lot of them away and lost us a lot of money, but had Randy put a decent set up in place from the beginning we may have reigned in O Neill and either got more out of him, or perhaps seen him walk in better circumstances if he felt he couldn't work under that. Randy basically left O Neill to run the club, almost top to bottom it seemed. Which was a huge error.
But not turning things around in 6 years is incompetence of the highest order. And the fact is we still have a shockingly high wage bill in the top flight.
-
It's really pretty simple.
MON isn't directly to blame for the last 5 years, but his walking out exposed how badly run we were, both from the managing of the finances from day 1 and the total lack of other footballing knowledge around the club at the time. The last bit was apparently the price for having MON as manager as he wouldn't accept any other football influence around the club.
The missed opportunity lay at the point of replacing Houllier with McLeish, not because of where he came from, not even because of his "style" of football, but because we just carried on repeating the mistakes of the past of overly long contracts on way too much money for players who were not top drawer, which from a business perspective is a disgrace.
-
What I see as the reason for our decline is touched on in part in the immediately preceding posts.
Randy Lerner was visibly wounded by MON's departure, especially the manner and timing of it. Didn't he actually once say he would cling to O'Neill's legs to stop him leaving or words to that effect? Eventually Randy's pain subsided but by the time he intervened personally to bring in McLeish he and the club had crossed a very big Rubicon. Top table ambition had been replaced by Premiership stability and security. Expressed simplistically we went from playing to win to playing not to lose. Randy Lerner personally liked Alex McLeish and Paul Lambert and they both liked him. Both took it as their bounden duty to him to protect his investment. Both were yes men and both failed miserably.
During the time of McLeish and Lambert an active policy of lowering expectations was pursued as the assumed requirements of the owner. Lower expectations, cheaper players, lower running costs.
This was only ever going one place. The place where we are now with our ambitions, as I never tire of saying, to be as good as West Bromwich Albion.
Lerner was like a man with a lot of money going to the races. He plunged on the first race, lost most of his gambling money then spent the rest of the afternoon betting in smaller sums on long shots to get as much back as he could of what he came in with.
As has often been said in these pages, the worst thing about our fall has been the inevitability and predictability of it.
-
As much as I was / am in the anti-O'Neill camp, it's a bit rich for him to be telling the fans to move on after spending the first half of the article slagging off a manager who left almost 6 years ago.
True, its time we forgot about MON.
Pulis left Palace in similar circumstances but they didnt crumble and fall out of the league.
They also made a joke appointment in Warnock that they still rectified quite quickly without falling apart.
nearly six years on from MON, we have players blatantly not giving their all on the pitch, uninterested management and what was until recently anyway a board full of idiot Lerner sycophants.
another one that sticks in the craw, our homegrown "stars" are the ones you would hope would be giving their all until the last minute. We have a fat disgrace as captain and the boy wonder clown who has delivered nothing on the pitch all season.
Thats why I think its more than a case of getting rid of a few odious characters in the dressing room, the club appears rotten to its core at the moment and its going to take serious surgery to get it back on track.
-
As much as I was / am in the anti-O'Neill camp, it's a bit rich for him to be telling the fans to move on after spending the first half of the article slagging off a manager who left almost 6 years ago.
True, its time we forgot about MON.
Pulis left Palace in similar circumstances but they didnt crumble and fall out of the league.
They also made a joke appointment in Warnock that they still rectified quite quickly without falling apart.
nearly six years on from MON, we have players blatantly not giving their all on the pitch, uninterested management and what was until recently anyway a board full of idiot Lerner sycophants.
another one that sticks in the craw, our homegrown "stars" are the ones you would hope would be giving their all until the last minute. We have a fat disgrace as captain and the boy wonder clown who has delivered nothing on the pitch all season.
Thats why I think its more than a case of getting rid of a few odious characters in the dressing room, the club appears rotten to its core at the moment and its going to take serious surgery to get it back on track.
Pulis was Palace manager for 29 games and had 1 transfer window with them so the squad after he left wasn't his.
When Mon left after 4 seasons we had a squad built entirely to play his way with no one at the club with any football knowledge to help transition us to a new style so when we went for a different type of manager the squad didn't accept him and we had a season of struggle before a late surge to finish 9th.
The board panicked and appointed someone they saw as better suited to work with Mon's squad but that failed.
Next they found someone who'd worked with unknowns from the lower leagues and got some success and asked him to replicate it becuase that way we could replenish the squad quite cheaply.
The 1 major success that season was a largely unknown foreign import so they bought a load more but we got worse so they decided to go back to mon style appointments and go for aging experienced premier league players.
When that failed as well they went for someone who could be a mon-like motivator and it worked for 2 months before his complete lack of tactical understanding or planning saw us nosedive to the bottom of the league.
Garde was another big change in direction but by the time he arrived it was too late to turn things around so his involvement in the whole thing is very minor.
From that whole timeline the key thing is that we were constantly trying to find a way to stabilise things but the lack of experience on the board meant that the decision making was poor. Mon's involvement was:
1. spending a lot of money and leaving us needing, a year after he left, to stabilise and rebuild which started the cycle of bad decisions.
2. not working with the board to build a back office structure suited to a premier league club (and pushing out anyone who tried to do it).
This isn't ignoring the faults of others it's just understanding that the first ripples in the club falling apart were set in motion by MON and not because of the timing of his departure but because if what he's done in the 2 years before that. His first 2 years were fine and he deserves credit for them (even if it does include signing Harewood) but that third summer (and January) was terrible:
Curtis Davies £8m - £3.5m (-4.5)
Steve Sidwell £5m - pretty much nothing (-5)
Brad Friedel £2.5m - free (-2.5)
Nicky Shorey £4m - £1.5m (-2.5)
Luke Young £5m - £2.5m (-2.5)
Carlos Cuellar £7.8m - nothing (-7.8)
James Milner £12m - £26m (+14)
Brad Guzan £600k - ?
Emile Heskey £3.5m - nothing (-3.5)
Milner and Friedel were decent signings (and Guzan was ok for the cost as a backup even if he's become a liability in the last 18months) the rest of those are a shocking waste of money; we lost £14.3m on them, paid most of them huge wages compared to their ability, and got very little to show for it on the pitch with all of that expense gaining us 2 points. Letting him repeated the trick a year later made it even worse.
-
As much as I was / am in the anti-O'Neill camp, it's a bit rich for him to be telling the fans to move on after spending the first half of the article slagging off a manager who left almost 6 years ago.
True, its time we forgot about MON.
Pulis left Palace in similar circumstances but they didnt crumble and fall out of the league.
They also made a joke appointment in Warnock that they still rectified quite quickly without falling apart.
nearly six years on from MON, we have players blatantly not giving their all on the pitch, uninterested management and what was until recently anyway a board full of idiot Lerner sycophants.
another one that sticks in the craw, our homegrown "stars" are the ones you would hope would be giving their all until the last minute. We have a fat disgrace as captain and the boy wonder clown who has delivered nothing on the pitch all season.
Thats why I think its more than a case of getting rid of a few odious characters in the dressing room, the club appears rotten to its core at the moment and its going to take serious surgery to get it back on track.
Pulis was Palace manager for 29 games and had 1 transfer window with them so the squad after he left wasn't his.
When Mon left after 4 seasons we had a squad built entirely to play his way with no one at the club with any football knowledge to help transition us to a new style so when we went for a different type of manager the squad didn't accept him and we had a season of struggle before a late surge to finish 9th.
The board panicked and appointed someone they saw as better suited to work with Mon's squad but that failed.
Next they found someone who'd worked with unknowns from the lower leagues and got some success and asked him to replicate it becuase that way we could replenish the squad quite cheaply.
The 1 major success that season was a largely unknown foreign import so they bought a load more but we got worse so they decided to go back to mon style appointments and go for aging experienced premier league players.
When that failed as well they went for someone who could be a mon-like motivator and it worked for 2 months before his complete lack of tactical understanding or planning saw us nosedive to the bottom of the league.
Garde was another big change in direction but by the time he arrived it was too late to turn things around so his involvement in the whole thing is very minor.
From that whole timeline the key thing is that we were constantly trying to find a way to stabilise things but the lack of experience on the board meant that the decision making was poor. Mon's involvement was:
1. spending a lot of money and leaving us needing, a year after he left, to stabilise and rebuild which started the cycle of bad decisions.
2. not working with the board to build a back office structure suited to a premier league club (and pushing out anyone who tried to do it).
This isn't ignoring the faults of others it's just understanding that the first ripples in the club falling apart were set in motion by MON and not because of the timing of his departure but because if what he's done in the 2 years before that. His first 2 years were fine and he deserves credit for them (even if it does include signing Harewood) but that third summer (and January) was terrible:
Curtis Davies £8m - £3.5m (-4.5)
Steve Sidwell £5m - pretty much nothing (-5)
Brad Friedel £2.5m - free (-2.5)
Nicky Shorey £4m - £1.5m (-2.5)
Luke Young £5m - £2.5m (-2.5)
Carlos Cuellar £7.8m - nothing (-7.8)
James Milner £12m - £26m (+14)
Brad Guzan £600k - ?
Emile Heskey £3.5m - nothing (-3.5)
Milner and Friedel were decent signings (and Guzan was ok for the cost as a backup even if he's become a liability in the last 18months) the rest of those are a shocking waste of money; we lost £14.3m on them, paid most of them huge wages compared to their ability, and got very little to show for it on the pitch with all of that expense gaining us 2 points. Letting him repeated the trick a year later made it even worse.
Not sure that MON would be at fault for 1 or 2 really, its back to the O'Leary/Risdale argument for Leeds too. Primary responsibility for ensuring the club was being run is a sustainable manner financially was Randy Lerner. He utter failed then and continues to today.
MON made a series of bizarre and unnecessary signings that a stronger chairman would never have allowed. Some players just dont work out but there was no logic to signing Beye, Shorey, Warnock, multiple centre halves, Harewood and of course Emile Ivanhoe Heskey. His summer 2010 business should have been strongly challenged by the board i.e. if he wanted to sign Warnock then Shorey needed to go first, if he wanted Collins then Davies or Cuellar needed to go first. It probably would have seen MON walk out a season earlier than he did but after blowing a CL place, the board were in a strong position to challenge him then.
But even despite Milner being sold, Houllier was left a very decent side, adding Makoun, Walker and Bent, that he was dragging down to the second division until Gary Mac came in. The revisionism on here towards Houllier still astounds me.
McLeish to be fair was very much managing in austerity mode, Hutton, Given and Zog only replaced the likes of L Young, Friedel, Downing, A Young, Carew, Reo Coker. McLeish never had a chance really, thought he looked certain of a safe PL position until bad injuries to Dunne, Petrov and Bent meant we fell over the line.
Lambert was incredibly badly advised to take the Villa job, miles out of his depth but young managers like players need strong support structures to thrive. Sherwood, a shot in the dark to stave off relegation a year early. Was always going to end badly. Garde without board support was a dead man walking, another one who should have ran a mile from the job.
All managers since MON have been really poor but the common denominator is a pathetic excuse of a board running AVFC.
-
but that's the point, we know that as soon as mon was told he had to act sensibly he flounced off. Maybe he'd threatened to do that the summer before and they relented and let him spend, that's the key, everyone says the chairman needed to control his spending better but that probably would've led to him walking away sooner and I can't imagine the fans would've been supportive of Lerner if that had happened given that a fair number turned on him almost immediately when the rumours of 'sell to buy' started late in mons final season.
-
Adrian Durham should prepare to be sued.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3535308/Martin-O-Neill-share-blame-Aston-Villa-s-sorry-demise-club-s-rot-started-reckless-spending.html
Absolute crock of shite. We have made a few poor decisions since MON walked
The MON walkout sowed the seeds for RL's loss of interest in the club; it presaged the cost-cutting ethos we've seen since; it left behind a host of highly-paid journeymen that sucked in resources that could have been used more usefully.
Yes, there have been some terrible decisions since; but they are anchored in the events of August 2010.
Sad, sad, sad.
Yeah. Completely ruined my 40th birthday.
-
The responsibility for our relegation lies with Lerner, but MON deserves most of the blame for our failure to make the Champions League and build from there. Randy gave him fucktons of money in those days, and while our rivals spent it on Vincent Kompany and Andrei Arshavin (when he was good), MON spent it on Emile Heskey, Nigel Reo-Coker, Curtis Davies, Steve Sidwell, Carlos Cuellar etc. Fuck him.
-
The responsibility for our relegation lies with Lerner, but MON deserves most of the blame for our failure to make the Champions League and build from there. Randy gave him fucktons of money in those days, and while our rivals spent it on Vincent Kompany and Andrei Arshavin (when he was good), MON spent it on Emile Heskey, Nigel Reo-Coker, Curtis Davies, Steve Sidwell, Carlos Cuellar etc. Fuck him.
Was that metric or imperial fucktons ?
-
Metric. Imperial is a fucktonne.
-
Metric. Imperial is a fucktonne.
Bah. Bloody modern EU nonsense. Bring back the fucktonne !
-
Randy gave him fucktons of money in those days, and while our rivals spent it on Vincent Kompany and Andrei Arshavin (when he was good), MON spent it on Emile Heskey, Nigel Reo-Coker, Curtis Davies, Steve Sidwell, Carlos Cuellar etc. Fuck him.
Kompany joined Man City for £6m,ten days after O'Neill signed Cuellar for £8m.
Sigh.
-
I bet they were paying him a fuckton more in wages
-
I bet they were paying him a fuckton more in wages
Actually they bought Kompany before the takeover. It might have been more than we were paying Cuellar, but it's unlikely to have been more than we could have paid him.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
-
The vast majority of Villa fans backed the club over the MON debacle, rightly attributing most of the blame to the petulant little barsteward.
There was even an acceptance (in fact it was widely encouraged) that the wagebill should be cut back, and we would need to scale back on transfers and top 4 to 6 ambitions for a while.
But what was meant to be two years of belt tightening (according to Faulkner) turned into five. That's what has ultimately done for us. Our transfer business last summer came too late.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Disagree. Even if we had managed to get 4th spot we'd have been knocked out of the Champions League in the qualifying group stages, much like Moyes with Everton.
The problem was the board failed to realise pre-season that MON had lost interest. I remember at the time DC5 and Pauline commentating on how uninterested and blasé MON was to everything on the Portugal summer tour. The writing was on the wall. He knew he'd be found out that summer when he was under instruction to get rid of his dead wood as he knew, despite spending millions on them, they were worthless.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
Can you email that post to Councillor Swann to save me arguing with him next time I see him.
Ta.
-
The vast majority of Villa fans backed the club over the MON debacle, rightly attributing most of the blame to the petulant little barsteward.
There was even an acceptance (in fact it was widely encouraged) that the wagebill should be cut back, and we would need to scale back on transfers and top 4 to 6 ambitions for a while.
But what was meant to be two years of belt tightening (according to Faulkner) turned into five. That's what has ultimately done for us. Our transfer business last summer came too late.
It amazes me too that after 6 years of cost cutting our wage bill is still ridiculously high, particularly given the actual level of quality of our squad we're massively overpaying our squad. As far as finances go we even make Newcastle Utd look like a well run club.
Hopefully the summer gives us the chance to significantly slash our wage bill and furthermore, if we finally start making good signings with some kind of cohesive plan on moulding a squad, perhaps when(if) we come back up to the Premier League we'll have a sensible wage budget that will prove to be better value for the level of quality we may have. As an example, Westwood and Bacuna are both on their second deals at the club. They may have been cheap signings on small wages but their wages surely went up when they recieved their second deals. And lets face it, there's no way in hell they're not being overpaid because they're getting paid more than tuppence a week (which would...just about...represent good value for them).
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Disagree. Even if we had managed to get 4th spot we'd have been knocked out of the Champions League in the qualifying group stages, much like Moyes with Everton.
Isn't that his point?
He doesn't mean "he wasted a chance to scrape into fourth one year", more that if we'd had a manager who wasn't buying multiple defences and Emile Heskey then that money could have potentially turned us into a team that was good enough to hang around for a bit longer.
-
The problem was the board failed to realise pre-season that MON had lost interest. I remember at the time DC5 and Pauline commentating on how uninterested and blasé MON was to everything on the Portugal summer tour. The writing was on the wall. He knew he'd be found out that summer when he was under instruction to get rid of his dead wood as he knew, despite spending millions on them, they were worthless.
Wasn't there also very credible rumours that he went for the Liverpool job when Benitez was pretty much nailed on out the door? Surely that should have been a clue, but then we are talking about our board.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Disagree. Even if we had managed to get 4th spot we'd have been knocked out of the Champions League in the qualifying group stages, much like Moyes with Everton.
Isn't that his point?
He doesn't mean "he wasted a chance to scrape into fourth one year", more that if we'd had a manager who wasn't buying multiple defences and Emile Heskey then that money could have potentially turned us into a team that was good enough to hang around for a bit longer.
Exactly Dave. I don't mean that MON blew a chance which he alone created to establish us at the top of the game; I meant that our best chance of becoming established at the top was when Randy's money was still forthcoming plentifully, which coincided with Spurs being shite and Man City not being the force they are now. MON was the wrong man at the right time.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Disagree. Even if we had managed to get 4th spot we'd have been knocked out of the Champions League in the qualifying group stages, much like Moyes with Everton.
Isn't that his point?
He doesn't mean "he wasted a chance to scrape into fourth one year", more that if we'd had a manager who wasn't buying multiple defences and Emile Heskey then that money could have potentially turned us into a team that was good enough to hang around for a bit longer.
I agree with that, Dave. I have always believed that MON was a very limited manager who even given the money wouldn't/couldn't have kept us in the top four and the financial rewards of Champion's League campaigns. The phrase 'pearls to pigs' is how I look back at the MON years, that and another chapter in The Aston Villa Book of Missed Opportunities.
-
One thing I will say and have said before is at least MON's signings had some decent resale value. TSM1 lumbered us with N'Zogbia, Given and Hutton. Although to be fair the latter two don't deserve to be compared to N'Zogbia as at least they knew how to 'put a shift in'.
-
One thing I will say and have said before is at least MON's signings had some decent resale value. TSM1 lumbered us with N'Zogbia, Given and Hutton. Although to be fair the latter two don't deserve to be compared to N'Zogbia as at least they knew how to 'put a shift in'.
Some of them, for every Milner there's a Shorey and a Beye.
-
I haven't got the time or inclination but I daresay someone knows .How much has the TV broadcast rights money grown since 2010?. I'm pretty sure our share of that alone should have been enough to rectify our financially straightened circumstances had we been run with even a modicum of financial savy.
-
The problem was the board failed to realise pre-season that MON had lost interest. I remember at the time DC5 and Pauline commentating on how uninterested and blasé MON was to everything on the Portugal summer tour. The writing was on the wall. He knew he'd be found out that summer when he was under instruction to get rid of his dead wood as he knew, despite spending millions on them, they were worthless.
Wasn't there also very credible rumours that he went for the Liverpool job when Benitez was pretty much nailed on out the door? Surely that should have been a clue, but then we are talking about our board.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that little episode and you're right, the board were asleep on the job. You have to laugh at the thought MON thinking he was up to the job. I bet he goes to bed at night reading his Oliver Holt clippings.
-
Too good for football according to Patrick Barclay.
-
I nearly puked at the end of the Forest film 'Promised You a Miracle' where they tried to link MON as the new Clough.
-
He should have got the push after his third season. Thanks for instilling confidence and work ethic, Martin, but now we need to move with the times.
But that would have needed somebody other that MON running the show.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Depends what you define as a generation but I'd argue HDE takes that honour for repeatedly missing much better chances throughout the 90s.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Depends what you define as a generation but I'd argue HDE takes that honour for repeatedly missing much better chances throughout the 90s.
I would say both had the opportunity. MON had the chance with the money he was given and HDE had the chance if he had allowed mangers to spend a bit more money.
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Depends what you define as a generation but I'd argue HDE takes that honour for repeatedly missing much better chances throughout the 90s.
I would say both had the opportunity. MON had the chance with the money he was given and HDE had the chance if he had allowed mangers to spend a bit more money.
Would the likes of Ron Atkinson and as much as it pains me to say it Brian Little also have to shoulder some of the blame?
Atkinson's team fell away badly in a short space of time, his lack of commitment to his job maybe the biggest factor as it was at United
Little had a young exciting team with some great experienced pros too. Destroyed the team by bringing in that charlatan SVC and it very quickly unraveled for Little afterwards.
HDE ran the club like a corner shop but the likes of Martin Edwards and other owners werent exactly throwing cash at their managers either back then.
-
He should've just left the day after the Blackburn home game and it would've been a far more favourable reaction than what we have on the forums and also when he returned with Sunderland. Mutual consent or whatever. Would've also given us more time to get a decent manager in over pre season rather than the scraps we had in September 2010 although this is Lerner so he'd probably just have approached McLeish a year earlier!
I wonder if that was ever discussed but O'Neill decided to be a stubborn idiot and dig his heels in over the summer, not moving out any of the players the club understandbly wanted to wash their hands of given they weren't even featuring (Luke Young, Shorey, Beye, Harewood, Sidwell, NRC).
What sickens me though is even through the relatively good times of 2008-10 a fair few of us were making reasonable points to the general on his thread that a) our wage bill was a little bit too high considering our revenue wasn't the biggest in the league and b) did the club have a decent play forward for the day when MON was no longer our manager.
We were told all was well, stop worrying unnecessarily and ring Nicky Keye for some more tickets please.
-
I wonder if that was ever discussed but O'Neill decided to be a stubborn idiot and dig his heels in over the summer, not moving out any of the players the club understandbly wanted to wash their hands of given they weren't even featuring (Luke Young, Shorey, Beye, Harewood, Sidwell, NRC).
No, that's not true.
There was a list of five players widely circulated in the press and elsewhere who were surplus to requirements.
There was little interest in some of them (Harewood, Davies) and Luke Young and NRC both refused moves. Shorey was out by the end of the window, but it was too late by then.
-
There's no doubt that MON made mistakes and missed a massive opportunity but there's no way any of the current situation should be laid at his door.
Since then we've had at least 3 CEO's, 5 fully appointed managers, 3 caretaker managers, still multi millions spent, new contracts signed, 6 full seasons but 1 owner.
-
I nearly puked at the end of the Forest film 'Promised You a Miracle' where they tried to link MON as the new Clough.
I'd have puked if I'd have had to listen to a Simple Minds soundtrack too.
-
I nearly puked at the end of the Forest film 'Promised You a Miracle' where they tried to link MON as the new Clough.
I'd have puked if I'd have had to listen to a Simple Minds soundtrack too.
Ha! The shame! If anybody should have remembered the title of the film it's me as it's named after possibly my favourite song ever.
It should have read I Believe in Miracles.
-
10 years to the day since Martin O'Neill was appointed. That really doesn't seem like 10 years ago. How hopeful we all were then.
-
Seems like a lifetime ago.
-
And so it begins again...
-
Close the thread. Forever.
-
And so it begins again...
Not from me it doesn't. I've made my thoughts clear many times. I will just let history do my talking for me...
-
I'm trying to remember to forget.
-
I can't believe that after the embarrassing shambolic season we have just had we are slagging off people like MON and BFR. Who as far as I can recall tended to have Villa challenging in the top six and in Europe and cup finals as opposed to being relegated.
How about having a pop at Ron Saunders for losing to Arsenal on the last day of the season or Tony Barton for not beating Bayern by more than just the one goal?
-
Much as I hate O'Neill for his walkout, I can't blame him for what went on more than a couple of years after he left. By then we should have been on the road to recovery and even if the finances were knackered what money there was available should have been used better.
For sure, that's spot on. However, I think O'Neill deserves a lot of blame for wasting our best chance at breaking into the top tier for a generation.
Depends what you define as a generation but I'd argue HDE takes that honour for repeatedly missing much better chances throughout the 90s.
I would say both had the opportunity. MON had the chance with the money he was given and HDE had the chance if he had allowed mangers to spend a bit more money.
Would the likes of Ron Atkinson and as much as it pains me to say it Brian Little also have to shoulder some of the blame?
Atkinson's team fell away badly in a short space of time, his lack of commitment to his job maybe the biggest factor as it was at United
Little had a young exciting team with some great experienced pros too. Destroyed the team by bringing in that charlatan SVC and it very quickly unraveled for Little afterwards.
HDE ran the club like a corner shop but the likes of Martin Edwards and other owners werent exactly throwing cash at their managers either back then.
I may be getting my facts mixed up here but i`m sure i read somewhere that signing was made over his head and he had no real say in it.