Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Smirker on September 03, 2023, 05:06:39 PM
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Third worst in the league.
Obviously we've been killed by injuries but where do we go from here? Is it that bad? Yes I know it's only four games in but we're averaging over two goals a game conceded.
Hopefully Diego isn't out for long. Finally gets back fit and looks good and this happens.
Lenglet/Torres for the majority of the season is a bit concerning.
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That display from Torres was abject today. All the worries about him when he was first mentioned as a signing came true today. Slow, and physically weak. Not very promising, at all.
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Pretty much as expected. Hopefully it will get better but if you buy players with glaring weaknesses don’t be surprised when they play as their stats suggest.
It’s going to be a long season without Ty.
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Have we written off Torres based on half a dozen games? He's a Spanish international still getting used to this league and the pace etc. Lenglet has experience of the Premier Division and is above the likes of Bednarek.
Torres was poor today but this doesn't make him a poor player.
Digne lost his marker for one of the goals and was done for pace with the second goal. Cash scored an own goal. Konsa looked a bit lost at times. Bad day at the office but Unai will sort it.
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Have we written off Torres based on half a dozen games? He's a Spanish international still getting used to this league and the pace etc. Lenglet has experience of the Premier Division and is above the likes of Bednarek.
Torres was poor today but this doesn't make him a poor player.
It might make him unsuited for the Premier League though.
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I think Torres is the ideal player for how Emery envisions us playing. But he's brought him in before we've actually manged to play like that with any kind of consistency. Add then the Mings injury and Torres having to play all the matches immediately, and it doesn't look like all that great a signing.
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Have we written off Torres based on half a dozen games? He's a Spanish international still getting used to this league and the pace etc. Lenglet has experience of the Premier Division and is above the likes of Bednarek.
Torres was poor today but this doesn't make him a poor player.
It might make him unsuited for the Premier League though.
I don't think it is enough time to make such a suggestion though Risso.
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I think we need to go back to basics when Ramsey is back. Cash Konsa Another Digne
I’m sure Emery will use the next week or so to look into the problems. We miss Mings. We’re better with him in the side, and under Emery he seemed to have lost that odd mistake he always seemed to have in him.
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Nope agree. I reckon Torres has plenty of quality. He’s not without fault today clearly, he had a poor game, but the root cause of the failure today and that at Newcastle is that the midfield were well off it and failed to press the ball. You sub in pretty much any defender and they’ll struggle in that situation in a team that plays a high line, let alone one who is playing is 4th game in the league.
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Torres is a good player on the ball, but has weaknesses which coupled with losing Mings qualities leaves us exposed.
It’s why it felt like a strange signing as injury or not as a left sided player it was always likely he’d replace Mings
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Have we written off Torres based on half a dozen games? He's a Spanish international still getting used to this league and the pace etc. Lenglet has experience of the Premier Division and is above the likes of Bednarek.
Torres was poor today but this doesn't make him a poor player.
It might make him unsuited for the Premier League though.
4 games, far too soon for this kind of assessment
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Torres is a good player on the ball, but has weaknesses which coupled with losing Mings qualities leaves us exposed.
It’s why it felt like a strange signing as injury or not as a left sided player it was always likely he’d replace Mings
I thought it was more likely that Konsa would drop out of the team or be moved to right back depending on who else we signed.
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I think that when your defence is constantly under pressure and getting turned, part of it is usually because the rest of the team isn't pressing correctly.
The same happened against Jawdie Arabia, we didn't control possession in the middle. And it's really tough to play a high line against pace if you're not dominating the midfield.
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Have we written off Torres based on half a dozen games? He's a Spanish international still getting used to this league and the pace etc. Lenglet has experience of the Premier Division and is above the likes of Bednarek.
Torres was poor today but this doesn't make him a poor player.
It might make him unsuited for the Premier League though.
4 games, far too soon for this kind of assessment
Agreed, it’s far too premature and like I say any defender playing a high line will struggle if the midfield doesn’t do its job.
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You defend as a team and today we didn’t.
Not enough pressure on the ball and when it keeps coming back at you it’s hard.
I’ve no issues with Emery’s thought process as in order to become better at what he wants we have to persevere with it. That may mean days like this but it wasn’t that long ago we couldn’t pass out from the back and that’s improved no end.
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The point about the press is spot on. If you want the high line to work we need to get the press right.
We also need to be stronger. Emery was right, we were weak. It worked last season because Mings is brilliant on the cover and Moreno is fast. Young and Mings organised the line too, and consistently caught people out. With changing the back 4 so often in the first 4 games, we're going to struggle with consistency.
Time is vital, Torres will improve, but I think Emery might have a bit of a rethink of our line.
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If the midfield keep giving the ball to the opposition in our own half, whether under pressure of the press or not, then you're going to create your own defensive problems.
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It’s not just the high line. We conceded two goals from set pieces.
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It’s not just the high line. We conceded two goals from set pieces.
Shit goals to give away.
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If the midfield keep giving the ball to the opposition in our own half, whether under pressure of the press or not, then you're going to create your own defensive problems.
Kamara was awful in both our defeats
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I’m worried about Pau. I’d never seen him play or even heard of him before we were linked/signed him. Judging from his start he doesn’t look physically strong enough or quick enough and from what I’ve read this is what others have said, before we made our move.
Doesn’t help when his minder gets a season ending injury, we are f###ed without Mings.
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It’s not just the high line. We conceded two goals from set pieces.
Yeah but that happens sometimes. The high line with a poor press is the main problem to fix.
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I think Torres is the ideal player for how Emery envisions us playing. But he's brought him in before we've actually manged to play like that with any kind of consistency. Add then the Mings injury and Torres having to play all the matches immediately, and it doesn't look like all that great a signing.
Torres was never going to play next to Mings, the thought of either of them playing RCB is daft. If we play a high line then Torres is a liability. Without Carlos and Mings, I'd really fear for our ability to defend set pieces. Torres certainly won't win many header and it isn't Konsa's strength either. Thought it was a strange signing from the get go.
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IIRC Moreno struggled for the first few games following his forced introduction. That's my only hope for Torres, the alternative is not good.
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I think Torres is the ideal player for how Emery envisions us playing. But he's brought him in before we've actually manged to play like that with any kind of consistency. Add then the Mings injury and Torres having to play all the matches immediately, and it doesn't look like all that great a signing.
Torres was never going to play next to Mings, the thought of either of them playing RCB is daft. If we play a high line then Torres is a liability. Without Carlos and Mings, I'd really fear for our ability to defend set pieces. Torres certainly won't win many header and it isn't Konsa's strength either. Thought it was a strange signing from the get go.
I didn't say anything about Torres playing next to Mings. I actually assumed he'd slowly phase Mings out over the season. My point was that Mings getting injured meant Torres was thrown right into the starting lineup instead of being slowly introduced and given a chance to gradually adapt to the pace and physical nature of the Premier League.
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IIRC Moreno struggled for the first few games following his forced introduction. That's my only hope for Torres, the alternative is not good.
“Only hope” is a bit dramatic. He’s a talented player he’ll work it out. It doesn’t matter who you swap in if our midfield performs like it did today.
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What I like about Torres is his passing out of defence and his ability to carry the ball. He also looks quite vocal and gets involved in organising.
What I don’t like, so far (and am stressing this as being based on not many games) is his lack of pace and physicality.
Moreno also looked defensively iffy in his first few games so maybe he too will need time but his introduction to our league thus far is a bit worrying.
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IIRC Moreno struggled for the first few games following his forced introduction. That's my only hope for Torres, the alternative is not good.
“Only hope” is a bit dramatic. He’s a talented player he’ll work it out. It doesn’t matter who you swap in if our midfield performs like it did today.
That is a valid point but then again look at stuff like how he got totally outmuscled for Burnley’s goal.
That’s an example of what is worrying, that was an individual weakness
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I’m old enough to remember when Ken McNaught started his Villa career and how initially it was felt he wasn’t the standard we had been used to with Chris Nicholl
Now I loved Chris but Ken turned out fine for us
Pau will be fine when he settles into the pace of the Premier League.
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He's just getting used to the demands of this league, that's all. I think he'll be absolutely fine.
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IIRC Moreno struggled for the first few games following his forced introduction. That's my only hope for Torres, the alternative is not good.
“Only hope” is a bit dramatic. He’s a talented player he’ll work it out. It doesn’t matter who you swap in if our midfield performs like it did today.
That is a valid point but then again look at stuff like how he got totally outmuscled for Burnley’s goal.
That’s an example of what is worrying, that was an individual weakness
It’s correctable though. I get the point being made, but you don’t play deep into the Champions League or multiple times for Spain if you can’t cope physically. As others have highlighted, Moreno looked a bit meh initially. It can happen and Torres has played in a high line for Emery very successfully, he can do it.
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Physicality is a lot more important at centre back than it is at full back though, plus Moreno is quite quick whereas Torres isn’t. He’ll probably be OK at home and against lower teams with not much pace. I think it might be a season where we don’t do very well against the top 6 though.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
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We simply can't play the high line as effectively without Mings at the heart of it. Moreno aswell as Digne frequently got caught out by high balls over the top today (for all his good forward play).
We need to tweak it for the tougher away games like Spurs away last season which was an effective low block first half and then seeing how bad Spurs were we then pushed forward and comfortably won the game in the second.
That needs to be the template for Chelsea away in three weeks time. Infact Forest basically did it exactly like that yesterday.
UE's an intelligent manager so I think he'll be realising by now how much of a miss Mings is for these tricky away games and we'll get exposed at VP aswell.
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We simply can't play the high line as effectively without Mings at the heart of it. Moreno aswell as Digne frequently got caught out by high balls over the top today (for all his good forward play).
We need to tweak it for the tougher away games like Spurs away last season which was an effective low block first half and then seeing how bad Spurs were we then pushed forward and comfortably won the game in the second.
That needs to be the template for Chelsea away in three weeks time. Infact Forest basically did it exactly like that yesterday.
UE's an intelligent manager so I think he'll be realising by now how much of a miss Mings is for these tricky away games and we'll get exposed at VP aswell.
Not convinced by this at all. If we were getting the midfield press right and still being run ragged I think you’d have a point. But Mings in that performance faces the same issues.
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^ I think that's why we either look amazing or abysmal, it's a system that requires the entire team to be 100% switched on from the start. One thing goes wrong and everything goes wrong.
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We simply can't play the high line as effectively without Mings at the heart of it. Moreno aswell as Digne frequently got caught out by high balls over the top today (for all his good forward play).
We need to tweak it for the tougher away games like Spurs away last season which was an effective low block first half and then seeing how bad Spurs were we then pushed forward and comfortably won the game in the second.
That needs to be the template for Chelsea away in three weeks time. Infact Forest basically did it exactly like that yesterday.
UE's an intelligent manager so I think he'll be realising by now how much of a miss Mings is for these tricky away games and we'll get exposed at VP aswell.
Not convinced by this at all. If we were getting the midfield press right and still being run ragged I think you’d have a point. But Mings in that performance faces the same issues.
I'm not saying we've never had a terrible performance with Mings playing but I think people took his recovery pace for granted when balls were played over the top and forward used to get half a yard before Mings would step it up and nip in ahead to get the ball.
I'm afraid on the turn Carlos and Pau don't give me the same feeling so would rather move Konsa back inside.
It's a little thing but two top level teams have already exposed it so no reason why others won't.
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But the point is they’ve exposed us when we’ve got a centre back pairing who are completely new to the league. They’ll learn and I suspect the midfield will get much better, so I’d hope we’ve been caught because we’ve had two really bloody hard away games at the point we’re still finding our feet. I am pretty sure Pau and DC will be much better with some more games under their belts.
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I think Torres is the ideal player for how Emery envisions us playing. But he's brought him in before we've actually manged to play like that with any kind of consistency. Add then the Mings injury and Torres having to play all the matches immediately, and it doesn't look like all that great a signing.
Torres was never going to play next to Mings, the thought of either of them playing RCB is daft. If we play a high line then Torres is a liability. Without Carlos and Mings, I'd really fear for our ability to defend set pieces. Torres certainly won't win many header and it isn't Konsa's strength either. Thought it was a strange signing from the get go.
I didn't say anything about Torres playing next to Mings. I actually assumed he'd slowly phase Mings out over the season. My point was that Mings getting injured meant Torres was thrown right into the starting lineup instead of being slowly introduced and given a chance to gradually adapt to the pace and physical nature of the Premier League.
I agree with you, signing Torres had to be about gradually moving Mings on....which struck me as very strange to start with as Mings was in great form last term post Gerrard. But if there was ever a case of you don't know what you have got til it's gone it's with Mings. No recovery pace at all down our left flank today or any bit of physicality. Torres is physically weak and incredibly slow...how far behind Nunez for the second goal today was he...those aren't things easily rectified during a season. Whats worse for me is we have brought in Lenglet who has those same flaws to compete for the same spot.
Burnley goal aside, thought Torres showed worrying signs even in that game. Caught badly flat footed before half time but the Burnley forward put it over. Same even v Everton, Danjuma breezed past him at one stage but Martinez saved. Today he played against elite forwards and he was humiliated.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
The small sample is pretty damning though.
It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
The small sample is pretty damning though.
It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.
I’ll come back to the point that he’s done it in elite European competition and for Spain, he’ll have faced the type of threats he’s facing. I don’t think we should underestimate that the plan was clearly to bed him into the team, but he’s now basically the most senior centre back. That’s an awful lot on him. He’ll sort it.
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I do hope so
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The thing is, some players seem to have the attributes for the Premier League, and some just don't. It's not like Torres is 19 and still has some filling out to do. 26 isn't old of course, but if he's not strong enough, he's just not strong enough. His skill and passing will be an asset when we have the majority of possession in games, but the goal against Burnley was a dismal bit of play from him and showed his physical limitations, and he was unbelievably bad today. I hope he does improve I really do, but if Carlos is fit after the international break, I'd be picking Cash-Konsa-Carlos-Digne.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
The small sample is pretty damning though.
It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.
I’ll come back to the point that he’s done it in elite European competition and for Spain, he’ll have faced the type of threats he’s facing. I don’t think we should underestimate that the plan was clearly to bed him into the team, but he’s now basically the most senior centre back. That’s an awful lot on him. He’ll sort it.
I think the problem might not be so much him in general, but his ability to play the way we play.
With that high line (and I know, it's boring hearing people go on about it, so apols), when he gets into a situation where he needs to use his pace, I am looking through my fingers, as I know he hasn't got any pace.
He's slow. To get over that he needs to make up for it with his game-savvy so fingers crossed that happens soon.
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A centre back whom our elite manager has essentially said, he’s never worked with a centre back so good, or words to a similar effect. Is seemingly being written off after four league games, and two poor performances when every other fecker on the pitch was as bad.
Bronte has essentially picked on every single negative, like Danjuma running past him the other week and ignoring anything good he’s done in those games.
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Oh, and another thing, one thing that niggled at me from the start with Torres was he'd only even played for his home town club, and his home town is a very small town.
Now he is abroad, at a different team, in a different league. That is going to be a challenge. It would be for any player, but not many get to his age having spent almost 20 years at the club down the end of the road.
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Wasn't Van Dijk a bit dodgy when he first joined Liverpool? I know people are only saying what they see but some players do need time.
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Moreno was with us, too, so i get that.
I'm a bit worried that Torres's total lack of pace isn't something that can get trained into him. Learning how to work with it, maybe, but even so.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
The small sample is pretty damning though.
It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.
I’ll come back to the point that he’s done it in elite European competition and for Spain, he’ll have faced the type of threats he’s facing. I don’t think we should underestimate that the plan was clearly to bed him into the team, but he’s now basically the most senior centre back. That’s an awful lot on him. He’ll sort it.
I think the problem might not be so much him in general, but his ability to play the way we play.
With that high line (and I know, it's boring hearing people go on about it, so apols), when he gets into a situation where he needs to use his pace, I am looking through my fingers, as I know he hasn't got any pace.
He's slow. To get over that he needs to make up for it with his game-savvy so fingers crossed that happens soon.
I get that but Emery played a similar style at Villarreal didn’t he? I think so and Pau worked well then. Who knows maybe I’ll be proved wrong, but I think a lot of this comes down to adapting to a new league and probably dropping him in faster than we wanted to.
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From what I've read of the post-match thread and this one, I'd say 2 things:
- clearly, the high-line defence will be exposed if our front runners and midfield are not pressing the ball;
- a high line requires all of the back 4 / 5 to be disciplined, communicative and strong: we have new players in the back four and we've mixed up the personnel in defence a lot in these last 6 games, which seems to be compromising the discipline required.
My main concern is that we leaked goals in the pre-season and we continue to do so in the games where the oppo are decent; compared to the last games of our last season.
Despite his renowned planning, Emery doesn't appear to be preparing the players well for these tough away games ...
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Wasn't Van Dijk a bit dodgy when he first joined Liverpool? I know people are only saying what they see but some players do need time.
No I don't think so re VVD. But in any case, he'd proven at Southampton that he had the necessary attributes to be a huge success. Tall, quick, powerful, and great on the ball. Our Tyrone has similar attributes, but when we first came up he made a few mistakes. Once he cut them out, he turned into one of the very best, elite level central defenders. Is a defender who isn't strong and isn't quick going to suddenly acquire those attributes, and if he can't, is the rest of his game good enough to compensate? We'll see I suppose.
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I'm definitely not writing Torres off but he was appalling today to the point I wanted him off at HT.
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I don’t think he’s actually physically weak, I just think he’s been getting his positioning slightly wrong. That’s how he was turned against Burnley.
You don’t excel in Europe or do well for Spain if you have no defensive capability, irrespective of your passing attributes. He’ll be fine. And for all the nice things said about Ty, he’s had absolute pelters at times. The manager who has got genuine, consistent, quality out of him is Emery so I’m confident he knows what he’s doing and Torres is a player he really wanted.
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Torres can’t cover the left side for the high left back of Moreno or Digne. He doesn’t have the physicality or pace. So we need a rethink here or we’re going to get exposed big time. Liverpool stoped his build up play big time today.
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I don’t think he’s actually physically weak, I just think he’s been getting his positioning slightly wrong. That’s how he was turned against Burnley.
You don’t excel in Europe or do well for Spain if you have no defensive capability, irrespective of your passing attributes. He’ll be fine. And for all the nice things said about Ty, he’s had absolute pelters at times. The manager who has got genuine, consistent, quality out of him is Emery so I’m confident he knows what he’s doing and Torres is a player he really wanted.
This is all true
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
It’s a small sample size at Villa, but there’s a large sample size of stats that state he’s low percentile on aerial duals and tackles. So far he’s looked exactly like his stats suggest - some excellent passing and some weak defending. I’m not sure why people are so confident this will change?
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It’s clear he hasn’t adjusted to the pace of the league yet. He’ll need to and very quickly if he is going to make it. I suppose the idea was to ease him in rather than throw him in. On that basis the new goy might be a slightly better option.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
It’s a small sample size at Villa, but there’s a large sample size of stats that state he’s low percentile on aerial duals and tackles. So far he’s looked exactly like his stats suggest - some excellent passing and some weak defending. I’m not sure why people are so confident this will change?
What’s his percentile for interceptions? Reading the game etc? You’re right he’s hopeless, he’s never performed at a high level so we should give up after 4 games.
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On that basis the new goy might be a slightly better option.
He'll be able to play on Saturdays then!
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Yes we had an all round bad performance today but as ever there seems to be a need to scapegoat one player.
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I didn’t see any of todays game - thankfully - but we lost Mings - who despite all the shit he gets - has been one of the best defenders in the league for the last 3 seasons. We have a partnership that has played only a handful of games for us.
Whether there ip to it - only time will tell - but we saw with VVD at Liverpool how much difference losing a key defender can make
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
It’s a small sample size at Villa, but there’s a large sample size of stats that state he’s low percentile on aerial duals and tackles. So far he’s looked exactly like his stats suggest - some excellent passing and some weak defending. I’m not sure why people are so confident this will change?
What’s his percentile for interceptions? Reading the game etc? You’re right he’s hopeless, he’s never performed at a high level so we should give up after 4 games.
I think what Chrisw is saying is that we’re getting the player we expected. But because of Mings injury, he’s being forced into things quickly and perhaps playing a role in games we may not have intended him to have. But needs must. Spanish football is more languid and less physical then the premier league so he’s going to have to really get up to speed quickly. Playing physical sides and opponents a few times a season in European football or some league games is different to having it pretty much week in week out.
There are some things you can’t necessarily significantly change in your game. If Mings had been fit, I suspect Torres would have played where Carlos played today.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
It’s a small sample size at Villa, but there’s a large sample size of stats that state he’s low percentile on aerial duals and tackles. So far he’s looked exactly like his stats suggest - some excellent passing and some weak defending. I’m not sure why people are so confident this will change?
What’s his percentile for interceptions? Reading the game etc? You’re right he’s hopeless, he’s never performed at a high level so we should give up after 4 games.
Look up the stats yourself Paul rather than trying to be facetious.
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He has a point though. Let's give him a bit longer than 4 games.
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The thing with stats is they can be read in different ways. Who knows you might be right and he might not be able to do the fundamentals of defending. But I suspect you can’t succeed in elite European competition and have 20+ caps for Spain as a centre half if you cannot defend, irrespective of your passing ability. Also given Emery’s attention to detail I doubt it’s something he hasn’t thought about. My comment on specific stats was a bit facetious, but there was a serious point behind it. You need to look at a defender in the round.
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I don’t think anyone is writing Torres off.
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Wasn't Van Dijk a bit dodgy when he first joined Liverpool? I know people are only saying what they see but some players do need time.
No I don't think so re VVD. But in any case, he'd proven at Southampton that he had the necessary attributes to be a huge success. Tall, quick, powerful, and great on the ball. Our Tyrone has similar attributes, but when we first came up he made a few mistakes. Once he cut them out, he turned into one of the very best, elite level central defenders. Is a defender who isn't strong and isn't quick going to suddenly acquire those attributes, and if he can't, is the rest of his game good enough to compensate? We'll see I suppose.
Vidic and Evra were both shit when they first joined Man Utd. Then turned into two of the best of their generation
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Harry Maguire has got 57 caps for England.
I’m not saying Torres is shit, just that he has known weaknesses to his game. I don’t quite get the blind faith that somehow these are going to miraculously change now he’s playing for Villa.
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Who’s being facetious now? It’s not blind faith, it’s that a centre back does not play an integral part of getting his team to the latter stages of European competitions if he cannot defend to a good level.
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How many games do we have to give Bailey? Asking for a friend.
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My point is he doesn’t have to be the best tackler to be a good defender.
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My point is he doesn’t have to be the best tackler to be a good defender.
Good defenders hardly make a tackle
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Noticeable that Martinez was in goal for the 2 batterings and defensive shambles. Time for Olsen to be made number 1.
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My point is he doesn’t have to be the best tackler to be a good defender.
Good defenders hardly make a tackle
Do they make defensive headers?
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How many games do we have to give Bailey? Asking for a friend.
No more away from home.
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My point is he doesn’t have to be the best tackler to be a good defender.
Good defenders hardly make a tackle
Do they make defensive headers?
Depends doesn’t it? Of course he’ll have to sometimes, does he need to be some big lump who blunders in? No. It doesn’t really matter though does it, because dress it up however we like it you think he’s no good and I think he’ll be ok. One of us is going to be wrong.
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Noticeable that Martinez was in goal for the 2 batterings and defensive shambles. Time for Olsen to be made number 1.
You laugh but after 55 minutes I was more concerned with Emi thinking enough with these jokers.
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Far from convinced by Torres , looks like a nice CB for a striker to play against . Yet to see him make a serious physical tackle . Seems like a clean shorts type player
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Harry Maguire has got 57 caps for England.
I’m not saying Torres is shit, just that he has known weaknesses to his game. I don’t quite get the blind faith that somehow these are going to miraculously change now he’s playing for Villa.
You’ve said in the match thread we’ve bought someone who can’t defend. If defending is all about aerial duels etc and the stats you quote are 100% on the money, then you are obviously correct, but I suspect its far more nuanced than this. As Paul says, you don!t play at the level he has without being able to play a bit. If Torres’ strengths aren’t heading and out jumping opponents then other players who will have to fill that gap. Emery obviously see’s him as one of they key playmakers in the team and I’m sure he knows his man.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
It’s a small sample size at Villa, but there’s a large sample size of stats that state he’s low percentile on aerial duals and tackles. So far he’s looked exactly like his stats suggest - some excellent passing and some weak defending. I’m not sure why people are so confident this will change?
What’s his percentile for interceptions? Reading the game etc? You’re right he’s hopeless, he’s never performed at a high level so we should give up after 4 games.
I think what Chrisw is saying is that we’re getting the player we expected. But because of Mings injury, he’s being forced into things quickly and perhaps playing a role in games we may not have intended him to have. But needs must. Spanish football is more languid and less physical then the premier league so he’s going to have to really get up to speed quickly. Playing physical sides and opponents a few times a season in European football or some league games is different to having it pretty much week in week out.
There are some things you can’t necessarily significantly change in your game. If Mings had been fit, I suspect Torres would have played where Carlos played today.
Pretty much yes Leon. Although my suspicion is maybe there was a hope to pair him with Carlos in a 4 at times too.
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We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.
It’s a small sample size at Villa, but there’s a large sample size of stats that state he’s low percentile on aerial duals and tackles. So far he’s looked exactly like his stats suggest - some excellent passing and some weak defending. I’m not sure why people are so confident this will change?
What’s his percentile for interceptions? Reading the game etc? You’re right he’s hopeless, he’s never performed at a high level so we should give up after 4 games.
I think what Chrisw is saying is that we’re getting the player we expected. But because of Mings injury, he’s being forced into things quickly and perhaps playing a role in games we may not have intended him to have. But needs must. Spanish football is more languid and less physical then the premier league so he’s going to have to really get up to speed quickly. Playing physical sides and opponents a few times a season in European football or some league games is different to having it pretty much week in week out.
There are some things you can’t necessarily significantly change in your game. If Mings had been fit, I suspect Torres would have played where Carlos played today.
Pretty much yes Leon. Although my suspicion is maybe there was a hope to pair him with Carlos in a 4 at times too.
Depending on the opponent, i’d have thought so. But perhaps not Liverpool at their place when they’ve only had 3 or 4 games together and Carlos is also getting up to speed with the premier league which i’m sure is not what Emery would have wanted to do.
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His lack of pace is really alarming
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This is one game against a top two side, sometimes you have to have a reality check and that happened today. We are not a top four side yet, the injuries we had early put a stop to that. Emery will sort it out, we will have more better days than bad.
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Top 4 but I don't see Liverpool as a top 2 side. Today we gave them probably their easiest home game of the season. They do knock it around well but they're nothing special.
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Wasn't Van Dijk a bit dodgy when he first joined Liverpool? I know people are only saying what they see but some players do need time.
Martinez was certainly getting panned after Man. United lost 4-0 at Brentford with likes of Souness pointing out his height every five minutes. He settled down and generally had a good season.
I think Pau will be fine v most of the bottom half, I thought he cruised through the Everton and Burnley games. However with the Mings void we also need him to step up in games like today and he looked sunday league out there which is a bit of a problem.
With his experience though we've also brought him for european football so that's a level where he should excel and if we win it with him contributing significantly that pretty much makes the signing a success.
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See I think they will be top 2 Rudy, or at least it will be very tight between them, Arsenal and Spurs for 2, 3 and 4. Nunez I said all last season will come good, his movement and general ability is a really high level and he looks a really good player for me, and I think their midfield is now significantly younger and more mobile than it was last season.
Torres needs 6 months, adapting to the Prem is not an easy ride, but I am confident that Villa will be working on his strength and positioning through the season on the training ground. The high line isn't new for Torres, he has had 2 years at Villareal under Emery and been described as the best centre half in the world by him when there, so I doubt Emery is going to give up on him quickly either. I think the plan was very much to have Mings organising and providing the physical elements though, so his transition would have been easier.
The answer is away from home to play a lower block against sides that are going to turn us round so easily, Torres reads the game very, very well, he steps out time and time again to win the ball. I am less convinced by Carlos alongside him than I am Torres, but again time will tell.
The other issue in the 2 away hammerings has been Kamara, who was shockingly bad in both performances, jittery on the ball and not finding a Villa player consistently, and Watkins, who immitated a brick wall with his control over 90 minutes today. The front gets more clinical, the back has less pressure too.
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See I think they will be top 2 Rudy, or at least it will be very tight between them, Arsenal and Spurs for 2, 3 and 4. Nunez I said all last season will come good, his movement and general ability is a really high level and he looks a really good player for me, and I think their midfield is now significantly younger and more mobile than it was last season.
Torres needs 6 months, adapting to the Prem is not an easy ride, but I am confident that Villa will be working on his strength and positioning through the season on the training ground. The high line isn't new for Torres, he has had 2 years at Villareal under Emery and been described as the best centre half in the world by him when there, so I doubt Emery is going to give up on him quickly either. I think the plan was very much to have Mings organising and providing the physical elements though, so his transition would have been easier.
The answer is away from home to play a lower block against sides that are going to turn us round so easily, Torres reads the game very, very well, he steps out time and time again to win the ball. I am less convinced by Carlos alongside him than I am Torres, but again time will tell.
The other issue in the 2 away hammerings has been Kamara, who was shockingly bad in both performances, jittery on the ball and not finding a Villa player consistently, and Watkins, who immitated a brick wall with his control over 90 minutes today. The front gets more clinical, the back has less pressure too.
Spot on post particularly the last paragraph.
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We saw last season how Unai improved both the team and individuals but it didn’t happen overnight. Not having Mings available has also thrown a massive spanner in the works as he is the leader and organiser of the back 4. Individually Carlos and Torres are both good players but it will take time before they are fully effective against the best teams.
If what we read about our manager is true he will have watched and analysed that game multiple times and will be working on improvements.
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We are not fickle but we do love to make 1 of our players a scapegoat for our performances - step forward Pau, last season at this stage Mcginn was the problem.
Hopefully he is not reading any of the comments about him.
Of course if we would have had Tyrone playing yesterday we would have won easily - I think that we need to understand he is not playing again for at least a year, we did not win every game when he played (also we were losing against Newcastle) before his injury.
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I really don't think Spurs have it in them to keep this going. They will have a poor spell.
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I don't think he's being made a scapegoat at all, he was shockingly poor yesterday and in our other heavy defeat and people are a bit concerned.
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I don't think he's being made a scapegoat at all, he was shockingly poor yesterday and in our other heavy defeat and people are a bit concerned.
Maybe he was, but he wasn't the only problem yesterday.
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I don't think he's being made a scapegoat at all, he was shockingly poor yesterday and in our other heavy defeat and people are a bit concerned.
Maybe he was, but he wasn't the only problem yesterday.
He wasn't but he still stood out as one of the worst, probably saved from that ultimate honour by Leon Fucking Bailey.
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I don't think he's being made a scapegoat at all, he was shockingly poor yesterday and in our other heavy defeat and people are a bit concerned.
Maybe he was, but he wasn't the only problem yesterday.
A lot of people, even pundits, have pointed out the problems around the midfield yesterday. But Torres does seem to be getting the individual blame and deemed not fit for purpose.
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Yes with our invisible midfield we could have had Paul McGrath in his prime at centre back and he would have been struggling. Yesterday was a poor team performance possibly due to tactical errors.
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Kamara had another very poor game. That lad continues to worry me, just no consistency with him. Capable of being absolutely superb, but also incredibly rubbish. To be fair he's good a lot more often than he's bad. but when he has a bad game it's usually an absolute stinker.
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I'm not an expert on tactics but it does feel like the way Emery has/wants us playing relies on every single person on the field doing their individual jobs 100% of the time. One person switches off and it messes everyone else up too. We don't seem to be able to adapt to carry someone having a bad day, or being bullied by opponents, or anything else. It goes right from the 1st minute, or it goes wrong and trickles through the whole team until everyone looks shite.
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Kamara had another very poor game. That lad continues to worry me, just no consistency with him. Capable of being absolutely superb, but also incredibly rubbish. To be fair he's good a lot more often than he's bad. but when he has a bad game it's usually an absolute stinker.
His game is all about taking the ball in tight positions and seeing angles , get that a little bit wrong and you are in trouble.
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He disappeared after that silly shove on Diaz.
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I have this idea that in both the Newcastle and (especially) the Liverpool games they managed to outnumber us at both ends when the ball was being passed around at the back. This meant that we couldn't escape their press and, just as importantly, we stood off their defenders when they had it from fear they'd pass straight through us - meaning, naturally, that we had a high line without pressure on the ball. Disaster.
Why this happened I'm sure is complicated, but my first instinct is...isn't this just 4-4-2 against 4-3-3 as a set up? They had the extra midfielder, ours were caught in no man's land, we had a centre-back and a forward effectively doing nothing in one situation or the other. Solution? I'm getting more and more keen on Diaby going into the Watkins role (though a bit more withdrawn) and Zaniolo into the 10 role, but maybe that's just me.
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Probably worth a try Monty. Watkins annoyed me with his recent comments about being happy when Ings was sold and how he likes to be the only striker. Score some bloody goals then, 1 in 11 and none this season is a poor return if you've got that high a sense of self importance.
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Might give us more control playing out, Zaniolo naturally coming deeper affording Kamara more options when taking the ball from the defenders (who also have more options).
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Again we have seen this before, I remember early last season we wrote off McGinn when clearly he was being played out of position, these are new players to the club, Diabe as good as he has been if he stuffs up no-one notices because it happens further up the pitch, when a central defender does the same it's a calamity. Lets give all the new players time to settle.
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Watkins annoyed me with his recent comments about being happy when Ings was sold and how he likes to be the only striker. Score some bloody goals then, 1 in 11 and none this season is a poor return if you've got that high a sense of self importance.
It rankles but it is his poor self confidence, really, that seems to be the problem. Either way, UE's decision to not get a back-up striker seemingly just to protect Watkins mental fragility rankles even more.
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Still say we should've kept Cameron Archer. The lad is a natural finisher. I think Ollie needs a Premier League goal to boost his confidence. He started slowly last year but ended up with 15 goals. I still say we really miss Moreno and Ramsey to provide the threat down the left to carve out chances.
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Watkins annoyed me with his recent comments about being happy when Ings was sold and how he likes to be the only striker. Score some bloody goals then, 1 in 11 and none this season is a poor return if you've got that high a sense of self importance.
It rankles but it is his poor self confidence, really, that seems to be the problem. Either way, UE's decision to not get a back-up striker seemingly just to protect Watkins mental fragility rankles even more.
I’m not sure there’s evidence that Emery’s decision is based on what Watkins said. I suppose it’s possible, but I suspect it’s more about how he likes his squad to be set up.
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Surely no manager honestly wants just one striker in the squad? Who did he have at Villarreal? Moreno and Danjuma that I can think of.
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No, but I wonder if he views some of the other forwards as options there. Plus he might see Duran as a developmental option. Personally I would have another striker, but I doubt it’s just down to Watkins’ confidence.
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Surely no manager honestly wants just one striker in the squad? Who did he have at Villarreal? Moreno and Danjuma that I can think of.
Don't worry Risso, sometimes the players you want just aren't available. And the summer window isn't always the best time to sign players, just calm down and wait until January, we'll be fine...
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Surely no manager honestly wants just one striker in the squad? Who did he have at Villarreal? Moreno and Danjuma that I can think of.
Don't worry Risso, sometimes the players you want just aren't available. And the summer window isn't always the best time to sign players, just calm down and wait until January, we'll be fine...
I’ve got annoyed about that justification in the past. I think it’s a bit more tolerable when it’s only one position you’re short, or perceived to be short, but you’ve made good progress in the other areas of the team. I think that’s the case with the last window, where overall I think we did a very good job.
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I think if Emery really wanted another striker, him and Monchi would have bought one in.
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Surely no manager honestly wants just one striker in the squad? Who did he have at Villarreal? Moreno and Danjuma that I can think of.
Don't worry Risso, sometimes the players you want just aren't available. And the summer window isn't always the best time to sign players, just calm down and wait until January, we'll be fine...
I’ve got annoyed about that justification in the past. I think it’s a bit more tolerable when it’s only one position you’re short, or perceived to be short, but you’ve made good progress in the other areas of the team. I think that’s the case with the last window, where overall I think we did a very good job.
It's annoying when you've got a glaring weakness there, which has been there for a while. We were all told in January when we "kept our powder dry" that it would be sorted in the summer, and it wasn't.
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We've scored 8 goals in four games this season plus another 8 against Hibs. Up front wasn't the only problem on Saturday. And I stand correct on this but that must be the first time in a while we haven't scored under Emery.
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We've scored 8 goals in four games this season plus another 8 against Hibs. Up front wasn't the only problem on Saturday. And I stand correct on this but that must be the first time in a while we haven't scored under Emery.
Agreed Clampy, we do look dangerous going forward and Diaby looks very good. But the frustration is the lack of depth up front and our seeming inability to address it over two windows whilst letting goalscorers leave.
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It feels to me like it's more than just up front that we're light. We've started the season compromising on the left. Once Ramsey is fit we will still be light there. I also think people will get very tired of Konsa at right back very quickly if Cash picks up an injury.
It's just hard to get your head round it when our net spend is so low, and yes I understand the Grealish money drops off FFP next season and wages have increased, but even so...
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I wonder if we'll see Moreno on the left at times, with Digne behind him?
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I don’t think he’s actually physically weak, I just think he’s been getting his positioning slightly wrong. That’s how he was turned against Burnley.
You don’t excel in Europe or do well for Spain if you have no defensive capability, irrespective of your passing attributes. He’ll be fine. And for all the nice things said about Ty, he’s had absolute pelters at times. The manager who has got genuine, consistent, quality out of him is Emery so I’m confident he knows what he’s doing and Torres is a player he really wanted.
We were totally outclassed down the left. Torres and Digne were awful and McGinn wasn't far behind.
Feel we're missing JJ more than many thought.
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I don’t think he’s actually physically weak, I just think he’s been getting his positioning slightly wrong. That’s how he was turned against Burnley.
You don’t excel in Europe or do well for Spain if you have no defensive capability, irrespective of your passing attributes. He’ll be fine. And for all the nice things said about Ty, he’s had absolute pelters at times. The manager who has got genuine, consistent, quality out of him is Emery so I’m confident he knows what he’s doing and Torres is a player he really wanted.
We were totally outclassed down the left. Torres and Digne were awful and McGinn wasn't far behind.
Feel we're missing JJ more than many thought.
We’re missing him and Moreno. The opposition left back is put under far more pressure defensively with those two in the team.
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But Emery has changed the formation to play 3 attacking players, Watkins/Bailey/Diaby which hasn't helped with the balance of the team either.
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Surely no manager honestly wants just one striker in the squad? Who did he have at Villarreal? Moreno and Danjuma that I can think of.
Don't worry Risso, sometimes the players you want just aren't available. And the summer window isn't always the best time to sign players, just calm down and wait until January, we'll be fine...
I’ve got annoyed about that justification in the past. I think it’s a bit more tolerable when it’s only one position you’re short, or perceived to be short, but you’ve made good progress in the other areas of the team. I think that’s the case with the last window, where overall I think we did a very good job.
It's annoying when you've got a glaring weakness there, which has been there for a while. We were all told in January when we "kept our powder dry" that it would be sorted in the summer, and it wasn't.
I'm not convinced Emery even wants a striker who can potentially compete for a starting spot up front, for the reasons Watkins himself gave in the recent interview where he said he felt threatened by Ings' arrival. Maybe he feels that bringing someone else in would compromise Ollie's form to the extent that it wouldn't be worth it. Unless the replacement was vastly superior, but then elite strikers are a bit thin on the ground lately.
It looks like the manager has decided to put all his eggs in the Watkins basket for now, and hope that the player responds the way he did last season.
Edit: as others have already said. Duh, I really need to read these threads through before posting.
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Kamara had another very poor game. That lad continues to worry me, just no consistency with him. Capable of being absolutely superb, but also incredibly rubbish. To be fair he's good a lot more often than he's bad. but when he has a bad game it's usually an absolute stinker.
Shocking yesterday and should have been hooked at half time. Beaten in air for the third then afterwards. Never got close to the Liverpool midfield, provided no protection to our CBs and rarely got turned on ball. Emery's tactical switch after Carlos injury left our team unbalanced but Kamara (and Watkins) were rubbish from the first whistle anyway.
Emery's subs were a bit strange. Ignore the first one which was a crazy gamble that finished us, but hooking Bailey in that manner was silly for me. He started terribly but he wasn't that bad after, couple of good runs, poor miss but Watkins equally to blame there. He had just put a decent ball onto McGinns head. Game was gone so what was he trying to achieve? Transfer window has closed so we need him and from a man management perspective it wasn't good. Zaniolo nice touches to start with but gave ball away more times than he got it, runs like he is in treacle too. Duran with the cameo from hell.
Tielemans, taking off Luiz was bizarre, Luiz was excellent on the ball throughout, game was done fair enough but no idea how you would take Luiz off before Kamara. Tielemans worries me, I'm seeing last season's player so far. No zip to him at all. If we are struggling in midfield v Palace I want the Donk on first. At least he gets stuck in.
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You're a glass half empty kind of guy aren't you Billy
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Zaniolo gave the ball away but only because Duran wasn't on his wavelength. Thought the Italian PE teacher looked very promising and not like running in treacle.
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Surely no manager honestly wants just one striker in the squad? Who did he have at Villarreal? Moreno and Danjuma that I can think of.
Don't worry Risso, sometimes the players you want just aren't available. And the summer window isn't always the best time to sign players, just calm down and wait until January, we'll be fine...
I’ve got annoyed about that justification in the past. I think it’s a bit more tolerable when it’s only one position you’re short, or perceived to be short, but you’ve made good progress in the other areas of the team. I think that’s the case with the last window, where overall I think we did a very good job.
It's annoying when you've got a glaring weakness there, which has been there for a while. We were all told in January when we "kept our powder dry" that it would be sorted in the summer, and it wasn't.
I'm not convinced Emery even wants a striker who can potentially compete for a starting spot up front, for the reasons Watkins himself gave in the recent interview where he said he felt threatened by Ings' arrival. Maybe he feels that bringing someone else in would compromise Ollie's form to the extent that it wouldn't be worth it. Unless the replacement was vastly superior, but then elite strikers are a bit thin on the ground lately.
It looks like the manager has decided to put all his eggs in the Watkins basket for now, and hope that the player responds the way he did last season.
Edit: as others have already said. Duh, I really need to read these threads through before posting.
If that’s true that Ollie felt threatened by Ings arrival then that is a real problem. We’re not going to progress without high calibre alternatives not just as options, but to ensure those that keep their places in the team are there on merit. The alternative is that there’s no pressure to maintain a starting spot which is good for nobody and doesn’t help generally with dealing with high pressure situations which is where we want to be as a club.
Right now Kamara could do with a kick up the backside and this time, we have viable alternatives to utilize.
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Our defence had 4 players who aren't first choice playing in it in Sunday.
Usually our back four would be,
Cash Konsa Mings Moreno
Instead we had
Konsa Carlos Torres and Digne
At Anfield against a fired up Liverpool team on a great run. Add into that Buendia and his pressing game also missing (and Ramsey's energy too) and there you have our problem.
Mings is out for the season, so we need to get it sorted, but with Moreno and Ramsey back we start to look much stronger.
Kamara is a young player who will have some inconsistencies, I've no doubt he'll be back to his imperious best soon too.
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That's disingenuous to say the very least. Digne is very experienced and has played more games for us than Moreno. Emery could have played Cash at right back and Konsa in his usual position, but chose not to. If he'd done that, and picked McGinn in his preferred right hand side position, we'd have looked a lot more solid.
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If Watkins can't handle competition he needs to learn to stick the fucking ball into the net a hell of a lot more regularly.
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If Watkins can't handle competition he needs to learn to stick the fucking ball into the net a hell of a lot more regularly.
I believe my views on this are established...
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When people worry 'what would we do if Ollie got injured?', l can't help thinking ' score goals'.
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That's disingenuous to say the very least. Digne is very experienced and has played more games for us than Moreno. Emery could have played Cash at right back and Konsa in his usual position, but chose not to. If he'd done that, and picked McGinn in his preferred right hand side position, we'd have looked a lot more solid.
Don't say 'the very least' then, say what you really think. What's disingenuous? Or are you just making inflammatory comments because you're grumpy we lost and want an argument?
Emery got it wrong; or the players didn't listen; either way it's on him.
Moreno and Ramsey would have made a difference, because McGinn could have gone back to his usual position as you suggest. We wouldn't have played Cash further forward either.
Currently out are Moreno, Ramsey, Buendia and Coutinho who all do or can play on the left.
The team would have looked more like...
Martinez
Cash Konsa Torres Moreno
Kamara Luiz
McGinn Ramsey
Diaby Watkins
Far more balanced and stronger too.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
I think we know by now, Unai likes a lop sided defence, with the left back bombing on and right back generally holding back and acting as a third CB when we don’t have the ball. It might be that he trusts Konsa to undertake this role better than Cash.
I like Cash for his whole heartedness and forays forwards, but can’t help thinking for a right back/centre back, Emery might be right about Konsa. The issue then is, it leaves us without our leader in Mings and next most experienced centre back in Konsa at the heart of the defence.
I think Torres and Carlos are both experienced enough to come good in time and the issues will largely be resolved, but in the meantime its a bit of a concern, especially as Konsa was by far our best defender on Sunday.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
I think we know by now, Unai likes a lop sided defence, with the left back bombing on and right back generally holding back and acting as a third CB when we don’t have the ball. It might be that he trusts Konsa to undertake this role better than Cash.
I like Cash for his whole heartedness and forays forwards, but can’t help thinking for a right back/centre back, Emery might be right about Konsa. The issue then is, it leaves us without our leader in Mings and next most experienced centre back in Konsa at the heart of the defence.
I think Torres and Carlos are both experienced enough to come good in time and the issues will largely be resolved, but in the meantime its a bit of a concern, especially as Konsa was by far our best defender on Sunday.
Konsa did well I thought, nearly impossible to shine given how awful Torres was next to him but plenty of good blocks and tackles.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
I think a big part of him picking the defence as he did is that he wants to play Konsa and Torres but doesn't trust them as a pair when there's a big guy up front so Carlos starts in between them as a bit of muscle. Given he likes the lopsided back 4 it doesn't really harm us in possession or change our shape so it's a fairly pragmatic choice. That's why losing Mings first and Carlos second in our 2 toughest games was so disruptive because we ended up with a bit of a soft belly.
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Tuanzebe out of contract, he was pretty quick wasn't he? And could head a ball. And El Ghazi, let's get the band back together.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
I think a big part of him picking the defence as he did is that he wants to play Konsa and Torres but doesn't trust them as a pair when there's a big guy up front so Carlos starts in between them as a bit of muscle. Given he likes the lopsided back 4 it doesn't really harm us in possession or change our shape so it's a fairly pragmatic choice. That's why losing Mings first and Carlos second in our 2 toughest games was so disruptive because we ended up with a bit of a soft belly.
Konsa has rarely let anybody down, even if we don't really know what he's like without Mings properly yet. The defence for me should therefore be Cash Konsa Carlos Digne, at least against tougher teams.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
I think a big part of him picking the defence as he did is that he wants to play Konsa and Torres but doesn't trust them as a pair when there's a big guy up front so Carlos starts in between them as a bit of muscle. Given he likes the lopsided back 4 it doesn't really harm us in possession or change our shape so it's a fairly pragmatic choice. That's why losing Mings first and Carlos second in our 2 toughest games was so disruptive because we ended up with a bit of a soft belly.
Konsa has rarely let anybody down, even if we don't really know what he's like without Mings properly yet. The defence for me should therefore be Cash Konsa Carlos Digne, at least against tougher teams.
Maybe, but that doesn't solve the issue of Carlos going off injured against Liverpoolwhen Mings has already been ruled out for many months.
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The point is you were banging on about the inexperienced defence, when he could have played two players in their usual positions, but didn't. We could have had three of the back four who've played together dozens of times.
I think a big part of him picking the defence as he did is that he wants to play Konsa and Torres but doesn't trust them as a pair when there's a big guy up front so Carlos starts in between them as a bit of muscle. Given he likes the lopsided back 4 it doesn't really harm us in possession or change our shape so it's a fairly pragmatic choice. That's why losing Mings first and Carlos second in our 2 toughest games was so disruptive because we ended up with a bit of a soft belly.
Konsa has rarely let anybody down, even if we don't really know what he's like without Mings properly yet. The defence for me should therefore be Cash Konsa Carlos Digne, at least against tougher teams.
Hopefully Moreno is back after international break. Not the greatest defender either but at least can run. Carlos/Torres/Lenglet/Digne have no recovery pace which is a disaster in that high defensive line. Need Ramsey back as cover in front too, TAA wouldn't have had the freedom of Anfield if he was there.
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Hopefully Moreno has still got that initial burst of pace he had before his injury. Him consistently roasting past opposition RB's was good to watch.
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What has happened to Kortney Hause?
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What has happened to Kourtney Hause?
Probably shacked up with Ciaran Clarke.
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What has happened to Kourtney Hause?
DJ'ing in Ibiza
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To inspire our team to a clean sheet on Saturday I thought I'd bump this thread and mention that we're looking a bit leaky again this season.
Thoughts?
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To inspire our team to a clean sheet on Saturday I thought I'd bump this thread and mention that we're looking a bit leaky again this season.
Thoughts?
The stats.
Conceded 6 which works out at 1.5 over 4 games.
We concede 2 big chances a game per 90 which is 8th in the league
We concede 3 shots per 90 mins which is 5th for conceding least shots on target against.
Disappointed haven't kept a clean sheet but that's to do with the wrongly awarded penalty against Matty Cash we are 8th in the league for xg conceded per 90
However our defence is 4th best in the league after 1. Liverpool 2. Man City 3. Forest.
The only other teams below 1.
That's based on xg non penalty conceded chances and that's actually very good under 1 at 0.93- 0.97 per 90 mins
Better than Arsenal.
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Horrendous goal to concede.
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As bad a goal as you can give away
https://x.com/ballerskingvbk/status/1837499168597680442
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It’s not just the defence it’s how we defend as a team, but either way it’s not good enough.
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Tighten up at the back and we make a serious challenge for the title it's as simple as that I'm afraid.
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Time for our Hause to come back home.
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There's not much issue in regards to defence as far as I'm concerned apart from the actual goals going in.
It's only 5 games played and we're 10th for goals conceded or match 1.40 a game 7 in total.
I think the goals and defence issue is a case of mistakes, sloppy play and other teams fortune as our defence is actually showing up as high level statistically. The clean sheets are coming the stars prove it.
Going into the weekend:
Defence wise Villa are Top 4 (4th) only one of four teams to have xG conceded non penalty goals per 90 under 1.
So in 5 games played xG non penalty is less than one a game.
That is very good.
We are 4th in defence stats for conceding least chances. That's again top 4 form and slight below bar out league position 3rd.
And actual Villa are conceding less big chances a game than Liverpool who had least goals against having only conceded one goal.
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There seems to be a focus on the actual number of goals conceded But like to make aware our league position and the underlying numbers already show we are a top 4 defence.
So given how the defence is performing it's reassuring and reasonable to say can forecast in next 5 Premier games they'll be more clean sheets than first 5!
Ipswich, Man Utd, Fulham, Bournemouth,Spurs the stats expect 0 goals conceded in 2-3 of the fixtures.
Will look at this again after 10 games.
The goals conceded per match at 1.4 is likely to be reduced and Villa will likely still be top 3 or higher in table with top 4 defensive numbers
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Nothing else matters other than the goals going in. We've gone ten games in the league without keeping a clean sheet, whatever xG says.
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Nothing else matters other than the goals going in. We've gone ten games in the league without keeping a clean sheet, whatever xG says.
Just based this season 5 games and it's on xG
Expected goals will likely level out.
Can already take one goal away from the 7 conceded as that was a penalty.
Martinez has only made 10 saves this season the lowest of any goalkeeper who has played all 5 matches!
The defensive numbers are there.
Lets see after 10 games where we are at.
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Mings and Kamara returning will further boost the defence!
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I think it's fair to look both at the stats and the eye-test and conclude that we're conceding goals more from errors than structural issues. However, if you're making errors, you're not defending well!
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Our main issue are set pieces goals conceded since start of last season.
We can all agree on that as it's fact. The given numbers are too high and Villa are one of the teams that don't show the defensive strength with only Forest and Spurs conceding more in Prem since last season.
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The main issue we have is that our best player in defence (Torres) is there more for his footballing ability than his defending ability. The latter of which if we're being honest, isn't good enough. We'll be better when either Kamara is back, or Onana gets to Kamara's levels of defensive screening.
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Well given the respective defensive and attacking numbers today vs Ipswich theres a chance for Martinez to have no goals conceded.
Ipswich average the lowest shots on target per 90 less than 3 at 2.8
They have the lowest amount of shots at goal by any team: 14
In 5 games they have scored 3 goals from xG of around 3.2
Everysing points to a clean sheet here.
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The main issue we have is that our best player in defence (Torres) is there more for his footballing ability than his defending ability. The latter of which if we're being honest, isn't good enough. We'll be better when either Kamara is back, or Onana gets to Kamara's levels of defensive screening.
Is that it though? The errors have struck me as being quite spread about (Cash vs. West Ham, Onana vs. Everton, Carlos vs. Wolves etc).
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Shit again.
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We've played 5 of the current bottom 7 in the opening 6 games and haven't looked at all like we're capable of keeping a clean sheet. If you have score 2 or 3 every game to have a chance of winning you're going to drop a lot of points.
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When has playing Konsa at RB ever looked good? It seems to be Emery’s one blind spot..
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Very clear to see the defence is our Achilles heel . Mings cannot return soon enough . The Konsa RB experiment should have ended last season . In a few weeks we need to revert to
Cash Konsa Mings Digne
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It’s not as simple as it just being the “defence”. They are absolutely a part of it, but as a team our work off the ball defensively just isn’t there. Tracking runners is patchy, closing off space is sloppy. Until we deal with that we’ll keep conceding. Swapping Mings in might (might - he’s been out for over a year) help some individual errors. But he used to make plenty to be honest, and it’s a systemic issue more than a personnel one. Although individuals aren’t doing great either.
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Nothing has changed from last season. We conceded far too many goals last season and we are doing same again.
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We've played 5 of the current bottom 7 in the opening 6 games and haven't looked at all like we're capable of keeping a clean sheet. If you have score 2 or 3 every game to have a chance of winning you're going to drop a lot of points.
Yep exactly - our points total is par, or slightly below par. If we don’t address our defensive issues once we start playing better sides we’ll drop like a stone.
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There's not much issue in regards to defence as far as I'm concerned apart from the actual goals going in.
It's only 5 games played and we're 10th for goals conceded or match 1.40 a game 7 in total.
I think the goals and defence issue is a case of mistakes, sloppy play and other teams fortune as our defence is actually showing up as high level statistically. The clean sheets are coming the stars prove it..
I'm afraid that you're talking absolute rubbish. As others have said, we are conceding far too many goals far too easily, against indifferent opposition. When we play some of the better sides, we will get killed - particularly down the right - unless there is a slight shift in our line-up and approach.
And, yes, Kamara will make a big difference; but that isn't the point.
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We've played 5 of the current bottom 7 in the opening 6 games and haven't looked at all like we're capable of keeping a clean sheet. If you have score 2 or 3 every game to have a chance of winning you're going to drop a lot of points.
Yep exactly - our points total is par, or slightly below par. If we don’t address our defensive issues once we start playing better sides we’ll drop like a stone.
Yes, we haven't played anyone really strong apart from Arsenal. If you were to equate the relegated clubs with those who were promoted, we are 3 points worse off so far.
We gave been decent going forwards but we can't keep conceding every game, let alone conceding first and hoping to come back against better teams.
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Nothing has changed from last season. We conceded far too many goals last season and we are doing same again.
Yet the season before last it was very tight. Mings is the difference
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Not as straightforward as that, which I assume/hope you know.
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Not as straightforward as that, which I assume/hope you know.
It isn't but what is clear is Mings/Konsa is the best CB pairing at the club, hope you know that.
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Not sure anything is clear about where Mings is after a year out. It’s also worth noting Pau is essential to the positive parts of our play. Mings is hopefully a really good option to add into the defence, but he’s not a guaranteed starter for me.
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I’d argue Kamara is more important to our defence than Mings.
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I’d argue Kamara is more important to our defence than Mings.
Argue it but you're wrong. The stats are there in black & white. A fully fit Mings is crucial for us .
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Well the best 6 months we’ve had in decades came without Mings, but included Kamara and Pau. If you straight swap Mings for Torres you will gain some defensive strength, but you’ll lose a key component of our build up. Over a season I suspect the net result is worse in that scenario, Kamara protects the defence and is critical.
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Well the best 6 months we’ve had in decades came without Mings, but included Kamara and Pau. If you straight swap Mings for Torres you will gain some defensive strength, but you’ll lose a key component of our build up. Over a season I suspect the net result is worse in that scenario, Kamara protects the defence and is critical.
Mings had become very good at bringing the ball out as Torres does , Kamara is the missing cog and when we get back to Konsa/Mings and Kamara in front we will be solid again
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There’s a difference between being quite good at bringing the ball out and what Pau does. He is elite level in terms of his distribution, it brings loads to our game. It also makes the opposition hesitant about pressing us. As demonstrated from the first half of last season Pau can be part of a team that competes at the very top. Mings is a brilliant option for the squad, but the idea he’s just a nailed on starter even if he suffers no challenges from a year out seems odd.
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5 at the back once Mings is back is the simple solution.
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When is Kamara coming back?
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5 at the back once Mings is back is the simple solution.
Yep could be an option.
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Well the best 6 months we’ve had in decades came without Mings, but included Kamara and Pau. If you straight swap Mings for Torres you will gain some defensive strength, but you’ll lose a key component of our build up. Over a season I suspect the net result is worse in that scenario, Kamara protects the defence and is critical.
Yes indeed. However it has to be Torres/Konsa with Kamara just in front unless we go 3 plus Maatsen and Nedeljkovic. However this option weakens attack🤔
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There’s a difference between being quite good at bringing the ball out and what Pau does. He is elite level in terms of his distribution, it brings loads to our game. It also makes the opposition hesitant about pressing us. As demonstrated from the first half of last season Pau can be part of a team that competes at the very top. Mings is a brilliant option for the squad, but the idea he’s just a nailed on starter even if he suffers no challenges from a year out seems odd.
Disagree 100% . If Mings comes back as good as before then Torres won't be starting games but will be a great squad player. This defence has to tighten up , it's a priority
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That’s fine Tim, we disagree on this. Torres was never signed to be a squad player, in the modern game distribution from defence is critical to be a top side. He’ll start most games when he’s fit.
Kamara’s return and working on improved defensive discipline more widely within the team is what’s needed most.
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Well the best 6 months we’ve had in decades came without Mings, but included Kamara and Pau. If you straight swap Mings for Torres you will gain some defensive strength, but you’ll lose a key component of our build up. Over a season I suspect the net result is worse in that scenario, Kamara protects the defence and is critical.
Yes indeed. However it has to be Torres/Konsa with Kamara just in front unless we go 3 plus Maatsen and Nedeljkovic. However this option weakens attack🤔
Yup I’d agree.
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That’s fine Tim, we disagree on this. Torres was never signed to be a squad player, in the modern game distribution from defence is critical to be a top side. He’ll start most games when he’s fit.
Kamara’s return and working on improved defensive discipline more widely within the team is what’s needed most.
Guess we will find out over the coming weeks / months. We've had a generous fixture list to open the campaign yet still shipped 2 goals a game on average , the fixtures aren't so friendly in October and November and unless we tighten up we are going to be conceding 3 or 4 goals regularly. It's a huge issue on the horizon.
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I think it's fair to look both at the stats and the eye-test and conclude that we're conceding goals more from errors than structural issues. However, if you're making errors, you're not defending well!
I know what you mean but when it has been going on for nine months, it must be structural. I can take us playing poorly at times but to continously leak goals this way is not sustainable for where we want to be.
The common diagnosis it's down to missing Kamara has some merit, obviously, but not being able to adjust for that over the course of half a season and more, is very concerning.
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I really do not understand why we loaned out enzo a DM who would probably be very handy right now. Kamara being out is clearly a issue but onana as good as he can be isnt a replacement for kamara
Defensively we look a complete shambles. Conceding 2 vs everton and ipswich. Letting wolves score too its not great reading tbh. I would have expected onw or two clean sheets from those three games
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Torres is so important to the way that we play, there is no way he will become a squad player.
Before his injury when Mings played did we never concede a goal or lose a game? he must have been our Beckenbauer.
If Mings returns to the team, we will probably play 3 centre halves, it will be interesting to see who is dropped from the team?
The goal keeper has also been at fault for a few of the goals we have conceded recently.
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Big Emi.
Konsa-Mings-Torres.
RB-Kamara-LB.
Tielemens.
Rogers-Ramsey.
Watkins.
I'd like to see as a starting 11.
With the subs we have, not only can we replace like for like, but we can also change the starting shape depending on whats needed during the game.
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Has anyone pulled out stats for our defensive record with and without Kamara?
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Well given the respective defensive and attacking numbers today vs Ipswich theres a chance for Martinez to have no goals conceded.
Ipswich average the lowest shots on target per 90 less than 3 at 2.8
They have the lowest amount of shots at goal by any team: 14
In 5 games they have scored 3 goals from xG of around 3.2
Everysing points to a clean sheet here.
That aged well.
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I think Mings will be a direct replacement for Carlos, with Konsa still playing right back when we are out of possession, then right side of three in build up.
We need to cut out errors. It's a small sample size but we have conceded three goals from cheap turnovers (Carlos v Wolves, Onana v Everton, Konsa v Ipswich) and there have been a couple I'd have expected Emi to save. Maybe we are too casual against weaker opposition. I don't think we have looked too bad when set in our defensive shape, but the way we are set up we are vulnerable if we don't protect the ball well enough. That is where Kamara comes in hopefully.
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Well given the respective defensive and attacking numbers today vs Ipswich theres a chance for Martinez to have no goals conceded.
Ipswich average the lowest shots on target per 90 less than 3 at 2.8
They have the lowest amount of shots at goal by any team: 14
In 5 games they have scored 3 goals from xG of around 3.2
Everysing points to a clean sheet here.
That aged well.
As well as the most annoying posters, they're also far and away the worst tipsters on here. Which considering they started off as betting bot Brice Jovial is quite funny.
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Only 13% of posters predicted a draw, so not really sure why FV needs to be singled out.
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There’s a difference between being quite good at bringing the ball out and what Pau does. He is elite level in terms of his distribution, it brings loads to our game. It also makes the opposition hesitant about pressing us. As demonstrated from the first half of last season Pau can be part of a team that competes at the very top. Mings is a brilliant option for the squad, but the idea he’s just a nailed on starter even if he suffers no challenges from a year out seems odd.
Shame that he was a bit crap yesterday ...
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Big Emi.
Konsa-Mings-Torres.
RB-Kamara-LB.
Tielemens.
Rogers-Ramsey.
Watkins.
I'd like to see as a starting 11.
With the subs we have, not only can we replace like for like, but we can also change the starting shape depending on whats needed during the game.
I'd like to see that in some games. Maatsen and Nedeljkovic are perfect in that shape. I'm sure it wouldn't be a fixed formation but it is oen that will have some application.
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Has anyone pulled out stats for our defensive record with and without Kamara?
With & Without Mings is more telling
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Only 13% of posters predicted a draw, so not really sure why FV needs to be singled out.
I predicted a draw based on my feeling at the time that we won't bust a gut due to Bayern game and Town's enthusiasm won't be enough to beat us.
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Has anyone pulled out stats for our defensive record with and without Kamara?
With & Without Mings is more telling
Any data Tim?
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With and without Mings with and withhhhhhout Mings.
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I just wish we could stop giving teams a goal head start were we have to come from behind.
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Has anyone pulled out stats for our defensive record with and without Kamara?
With & Without Mings is more telling
Any data Tim?
Yes , the goals A column last season (and this so far) versus the season before last
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Only 13% of posters predicted a draw, so not really sure why FV needs to be singled out.
I imagine most people just click on a Villa win on the poll regardless of who we're actually playing. A bit different to using xG and all sorts to come up with usually rubbish predictions.
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I always click on an opposition win because the gods.
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Has anyone pulled out stats for our defensive record with and without Kamara?
With & Without Mings is more telling
Any data Tim?
Yes , the goals A column last season (and this so far) versus the season before
22/23 >51/46
23/24 >76/61
So what's this telling us?
We played an expanded aggressive style last season in order to score more and win more. Compared to 22/23 we scored 25 more goals and conceded 15 more and a result qualified for champions league. The defence provided us with the goal difference of 15 rather than 5 in the previous season.
Pau Torres in place of Mings is helping us to create lot more chances and therefore we are scoring more.
What do you want?
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I always click on an opposition win because the gods.
Likewise.
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What do you want?
Score more, concede less.
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Legion is consistent with his 0-2s.
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What do you want?
Score more, concede less.
Which is why just swapping Pau for Mings isn’t the answer ( I know you haven’t said it is)
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The money spent on Maatsem would have been better spent on a quality RB.
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Short-term maybe, but maybe that quality wasn’t available. Maatsen is very good now, but he could become the best left back in the world. It’s probably one of those cases where we had to strike while the opportunity was there.
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Everysing points to a clean sheet here.
Interesting debate.
It occurs to me, however, that that is a spelling mistake that one could not make accidentally.
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Short-term maybe, but maybe that quality wasn’t available. Maatsen is very good now, but he could become the best left back in the world. It’s probably one of those cases where we had to strike while the opportunity was there.
Not seen enough of him yet to form much of an opinion. Meanwhile Digne has been solid .
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5 at the back once Mings is back is the simple solution.
On this point (and more broadly, Konsa at RB or not), do we ever really play with a classic back 4 (or 5)?
Isn’t it more of a hybrid thingy, back 3 in possession, back 5 without the ball, but with a midfielder making up the quintet rather than an extra centre half.
Which makes the Konsa debate a bit quixotic - it’s by design.
We fell into a trap yesterday of Ipswich inviting Konsa into space and trying something more speculative than usual, and as others have pointed out, poor positioning from the covering midfielder.
And even then, Carlos should have either played Delap off or snuffed him out.
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Short-term maybe, but maybe that quality wasn’t available. Maatsen is very good now, but he could become the best left back in the world. It’s probably one of those cases where we had to strike while the opportunity was there.
Not seen enough of him yet to form much of an opinion. Meanwhile Digne has been solid .
Well yeah that’s fair enough, but Digne and Moreno were in and around 30 so there’s also an element of squad building to it as well.
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Short-term maybe, but maybe that quality wasn’t available. Maatsen is very good now, but he could become the best left back in the world. It’s probably one of those cases where we had to strike while the opportunity was there.
Not seen enough of him yet to form much of an opinion. Meanwhile Digne has been solid .
Well yeah that’s fair enough, but Digne and Moreno were in and around 30 so there’s also an element of squad building to it as well.
As an investment it looks like great business and once he's settled in we should have Digne replacement sorted. Meanwhile RB is a problem .
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Still annoyed by the Ipswich defensive performance. That right side is an absolute mess. We've struggled through recently, mainly due to McGinn helping to double up on that side - It's properly exposed now in his absence.
Diego Carlos is simply nowhere near good enough - Totally lost patience with him at the weekend. By employing Konsa at RB you lose any attacking intent, as well as take our most (*fit) aggressive defender out of the heart of our defence. Nedelkovic or Bogard simply MUST start at RB on Wednesday (*and at the weekend) if we have even the feintest hope of getting something out of either game. I'd go Nedelkovic personally for his pace and it being his natural position.
Some people will say he's too raw to be thrown in for a game like this - Personally, I'd take this option EVERY time if it was an option between him and Diego Carlos. That clown looked like he was defending in a different time zone at the weekend!
If I see his name on the team sheet on Wednesday, especially after we've had our pants pulled down on ticket prices, I'm going to lose my shit!
On a side note, I wouldn't say Martinez has got out of our recent defensive calamity scot free either. He could and should have done better with a number of the goals conceded recently, starting with Delap's first goal at the weekend.
Must do better. And quickly!
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Still annoyed by the Ipswich defensive performance. That right side is an absolute mess. We've struggled through recently, mainly due to McGinn helping to double up on that side - It's properly exposed now in his absence.
Diego Carlos is simply nowhere near good enough - Totally lost patience with him at the weekend. By employing Konsa at RB you lose any attacking intent, as well as take our most (*fit) aggressive defender out of the heart of our defence. Nedelkovic or Bogard simply MUST start at RB on Wednesday (*and at the weekend) if we have even the feintest hope of getting something out of either game. I'd go Nedelkovic personally for his pace and it being his natural position.
Some people will say he's too raw to be thrown in for a game like this - Personally, I'd take this option EVERY time if it was an option between him and Diego Carlos. That clown looked like he was defending in a different time zone at the weekend!
If I see his name on the team sheet on Wednesday, especially after we've had our pants pulled down on ticket prices, I'm going to lose my shit!
On a side note, I wouldn't say Martinez has got out of our recent defensive calamity scot free either. He could and should have done better with a number of the goals conceded recently, starting with Delap's first goal at the weekend.
Must do better. And quickly!
Nail on head .
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Matty Cash has just posted pictures of himself training but don't know if this means anything significant.
https://x.com/mattycash622/status/1840836593701306371?t=DEdQV26NJGBcL9g5izLyNA&s=19
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DC has played poorly, but he has been exceptional against the best sides in the past. It suggests it’s probably a concentration thing, which shows him starting isn’t ideal or sustainable. But in a one-off big game he can be very good.
I think the biggest problem our defence has is the midfield and attack isn’t really doing its part in terms of supporting the defence. That’s not to say the defenders are getting it right either, but I think the problem stems from a lack of cohesion in front of them.
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Still annoyed by the Ipswich defensive performance. That right side is an absolute mess. We've struggled through recently, mainly due to McGinn helping to double up on that side - It's properly exposed now in his absence.
Diego Carlos is simply nowhere near good enough - Totally lost patience with him at the weekend. By employing Konsa at RB you lose any attacking intent, as well as take our most (*fit) aggressive defender out of the heart of our defence. Nedelkovic or Bogard simply MUST start at RB on Wednesday (*and at the weekend) if we have even the feintest hope of getting something out of either game. I'd go Nedelkovic personally for his pace and it being his natural position.
Some people will say he's too raw to be thrown in for a game like this - Personally, I'd take this option EVERY time if it was an option between him and Diego Carlos. That clown looked like he was defending in a different time zone at the weekend!
If I see his name on the team sheet on Wednesday, especially after we've had our pants pulled down on ticket prices, I'm going to lose my shit!
On a side note, I wouldn't say Martinez has got out of our recent defensive calamity scot free either. He could and should have done better with a number of the goals conceded recently, starting with Delap's first goal at the weekend.
Must do better. And quickly!
Yep, let's be honest we've been conceding poor and sloppy goals in games for some time now. Most times we have got away with it, but like yesterday, it has cost us on the odd occasion.
The two goals we conceded yesterday were especially poor though, with a number of players at fault for both.
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Leon will have to be told to put in a shift defensively against Bayern cos he wasn't much use at that side of things on Sun.
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Leon will have to be told to put in a shift defensively against Bayern cos he wasn't much use at that side of things on Sun.
Deserves to be dropped .
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Emi
Ned Konsa Pau Digne
Onana Tielemans Barkley
Rogers
Watkins Duran.
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Absolutely brilliant so far in the champions league.
The clean sheets in the Premier League are coming.
Martinez says hope to take this into premier league form and have some shut outs
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0-0
The clean sheet was coming in the league.
That only positive really from the worst Villa match I've seen this season.
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Next 5 Premier League games I think could be two to three clean sheets.
Our xg conceded is below one at 0.75
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Apologies for the poor layout of this data …
Season Mid CH GF GA Diff
1 Kamara Mings 1.6 1.0 0.6
2 Kamara X 2.1 1.3 0.8
2 X X 1.9 2.1 -0.2
2 Total 2.0 1.6 0.4
3 X X 2.0 1.5 0.5
In other words our best defence record has been with Mings and Kamala (GA = 1)
The best overall performance was Emery’s second season up to the point when Kamala was injured (goal difference 0.8 ).
When both are out, ie end of last season and the start of this, then goals for are broadly the same at 2, but goals against rise some where between 1.5 to 2.
Of course these’s a lot of nuance behind the basic numbers. But if both are back and near their best then this puts to bed a lot of the debate regarding our best defensive line up.
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In other words our best defence record has been with Mings and Kamala (GA = 1)
I'd hope she's a bit too busy over the next few years to fill in at the base of our midfield.
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The only problem with that data is that the sample sizes are tiny and get skewed by things like tiredness and who we've played. You only need 1-2 bad performances to skew the data massively.
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If Mings comes back as strong as he was it's just a question of who makes way . The big unknown is will he come back the same player .
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The only problem with that data is that the sample sizes are tiny and get skewed by things like tiredness and who we've played. You only need 1-2 bad performances to skew the data massively.
Agreed that there are a lot of other variables, but the sample sizes aren’t that small.
About 24 games in both season 1 and 2 before the injuries, leaving about 20 games last season and this without either.
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Could have conceded another four tonight.
Defence is a worry.
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Could have conceded another four tonight.
Defence is a worry.
I think its more the set up / game plan leaving them exposed
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we allowed Brugge to play without pressure , such a weird performance , we were not tight in any areas , almost arrogant or lazy
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We're getting worse. Two horrific goals to concede.
Our defence is relegation level.
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No it’s not.
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No it’s not.
Not quite, but not far off. We've conceded more than Palace and the same as Everton. It's undeniably poor, and has been for months, and what has Emery managed to do about it? Fuck all, that's what.
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Should resign Danny Ings and stick him in there.
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Let's continue with Konsa at RB and Carlos at RCB, statistically something something.
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No it’s not.
Based on this season's form it really is.
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I wish to see Konsa at centre half and never wasted at full back again. Stronger and more balanced.
We concede so many goals from individual errors. Carlos not being on the pitch is a remedy to that.
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I wish to see Konsa at centre half and never wasted at full back again.
Amen. I'd rather see Ned play there. It's a big step up for him but he has tonnes of potential and with an experienced Konsa in his ear, he'd be fine. Let's also remember, understandably so, Konsa isn't happy playing right back.
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Konsa was absolutely dreadful tonight, that one tackle aside when he was actually pretty central.
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Konsa was absolutely dreadful tonight, that one tackle aside when he was actually pretty central.
He was in the right place and unsurprisingly did something good. He's just wasted at full back and weakens us at centre half not being in there.
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I don't get why the form has nosedived as players have come back to fitness. It's almost like we were better when we were patching the side up last season
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I feel we always need to have at least one physical presence who can dominate duals. Mings gives you that on the left, Carlos gives you that on the right but you always feels there's a mistake in him and there's better players on the ball.
I think Mings and Konsa works. And unless Carlos can consistently play like did in the Bayern game and 3 games that followed, the problem won't be resolved until we've upgraded in that position and found the ideal partner for Pau Torres.
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Let's continue with Konsa at RB and Carlos at RCB, statistically something something.
Concedes fewer goals are the words you’re desperately trying to avoid. God knows why.
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I wish to see Konsa at centre half and never wasted at full back again. Stronger and more balanced.
We concede so many goals from individual errors. Carlos not being on the pitch is a remedy to that.
Jesus Christ Ads, I thought you were on a wind-up when you posted something like that before. A solicitor who doesn’t trust factual evidence? Surely not.
Why do people think the answer to our problems is a leakier defence?
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I feel we always need to have at least one physical presence who can dominate duals. Mings gives you that on the left, Carlos gives you that on the right but you always feels there's a mistake in him and there's better players on the ball.
I think Mings and Konsa works. And unless Carlos can consistently play like did in the Bayern game and 3 games that followed, the problem won't be resolved until we've upgraded in that position and found the ideal partner for Pau Torres.
At last. Someone else acknowledging facts and not offering a solution that is actually worse.
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We have a fundamental problem in that we can’t keep a clean sheet which should be a basic starting point. Where have all the defenders gone who took pride in keeping a clean sheet, nobody seems bothered anymore! We have the number one goalkeeper in the world and the rest of the defence is a shambles with mistakes galore! Whoever the defence coach is sack them and get somebody in who knows what they are doing!
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I wish to see Konsa at centre half and never wasted at full back again. Stronger and more balanced.
We concede so many goals from individual errors. Carlos not being on the pitch is a remedy to that.
Strong and stable!
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We have a fundamental problem in that we can’t keep a clean sheet which should be a basic starting point. Where have all the defenders gone who took pride in keeping a clean sheet, nobody seems bothered anymore! We have the number one goalkeeper in the world and the rest of the defence is a shambles with mistakes galore! Whoever the defence coach is sack them and get somebody in who knows what they are doing!
We don’t keep many, but there’s a couple of common denominators when we do.
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We have a fundamental problem in that we can’t keep a clean sheet which should be a basic starting point. Where have all the defenders gone who took pride in keeping a clean sheet, nobody seems bothered anymore! We have the number one goalkeeper in the world and the rest of the defence is a shambles with mistakes galore! Whoever the defence coach is sack them and get somebody in who knows what they are doing!
We will also concede less goals if we retain possession better. You simply cannot do that with Konsa at RB. Cash is average at best on the ball over there but Konsa is simply diabolical. It's so easy for the opposition to trap him in possession like Liverpool clearly did.
Emery tried to rectify it over the summer with Gerrtruida coming in but unfortunately we couldn't get Carlos out to fund it. Cash has been decent enough his season but it's getting to the stage with both him and Ramsey that you can't rely on them.
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We have a fundamental problem in that we can’t keep a clean sheet which should be a basic starting point. Where have all the defenders gone who took pride in keeping a clean sheet, nobody seems bothered anymore! We have the number one goalkeeper in the world and the rest of the defence is a shambles with mistakes galore! Whoever the defence coach is sack them and get somebody in who knows what they are doing!
We will also concede less goals if we retain possession better. You simply cannot do that with Konsa at RB.
It’s almost as if we don’t concede less goals with Konsa at RB.
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Lads, lads, lads, this is doing my head in. It's 'fewer goals'!
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Lads, lads, lads, this is doing my head in. It's 'fewer goals'!
Sorry. I’ve been corrected earlier, but I was purposely talking to brintebilly in a language he understands. Especially as that’s clearly not football.
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I just watched 90 minutes of Konsa offering nothing going forwards and Carlos giving away another cheap goal from an individual error. A repeat of his set up for Palace and a reminder of how poor they were in the same roles at Ipswich. Not forgetting the 3 goal collapse post Cash removal from the pitch at Spurs. I accept that Rogers going off opened the midfield up, but I'm not wedded to a narrow analysis that clearly isn't passing any test, let alone the eye.
I dont really care what happened last season down at Arsenal or elsewhere, what I am seeing now is a side much more balanced with Cash, an actual full back, in the side and our best centre half at centre half. Fortunately Cash is back after the international break.
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I just watched 90 minutes of Konsa offering nothing going forwards and Carlos giving away another cheap goal from an individual error. A repeat of his set up for Palace and a reminder of how poor they were in the same roles at Ipswich. Not forgetting the 3 goal collapse post Cash removal from the pitch at Spurs. I accept that Rogers going off opened the midfield up, but I'm not wedded to a narrow analysis that clearly isn't passing any test, let alone the eye.
I dont really care what happened last season down at Arsenal or elsewhere, what I am seeing now is a side much more balanced with Cash, an actual full back, in the side and our best centre half at centre half. Fortunately Cash is back after the international break.
Agreed, I understand the focussing in on stats but it also leads to the previous conclusion Mings is a better option than Torres. Good player that he is, he is not.
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We've kept 1 clean sheet in the last 16 league games. And 9 in the last 54. Regardless of what combination we put out it isn't performing to a standard that leads to sustained success and hasn't for a long time. Now that the attack is out of form and isn't scoring 2 or 3 on a regular basis to bail out the defence we have what we currently have, A side struggling for wins.
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I just watched 90 minutes of Konsa offering nothing going forwards and Carlos giving away another cheap goal from an individual error. A repeat of his set up for Palace and a reminder of how poor they were in the same roles at Ipswich. Not forgetting the 3 goal collapse post Cash removal from the pitch at Spurs. I accept that Rogers going off opened the midfield up, but I'm not wedded to a narrow analysis that clearly isn't passing any test, let alone the eye.
I dont really care what happened last season down at Arsenal or elsewhere, what I am seeing now is a side much more balanced with Cash, an actual full back, in the side and our best centre half at centre half. Fortunately Cash is back after the international break.
Don’t care about 18 months of evidence? Cool.
Not forgetting Spurs, Ipswich, Palace, (bizarre when Konsa didn’t play(, Liverpool.
But definitely forgetting Bayern, Young Boys, Bologna, Man Utd.
Not very scientific really is it?
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We have a fundamental problem in that we can’t keep a clean sheet which should be a basic starting point. Where have all the defenders gone who took pride in keeping a clean sheet, nobody seems bothered anymore! We have the number one goalkeeper in the world and the rest of the defence is a shambles with mistakes galore! Whoever the defence coach is sack them and get somebody in who knows what they are doing!
We will also concede less goals if we retain possession better. You simply cannot do that with Konsa at RB.
It’s almost as if we don’t concede less goals with Konsa at RB.
We don't...4/17 PL goals conceded with Cash at RB, 8/17 with Konsa at RB it looks like (5 with Kosta/Bogarde).
That's just the narrow "stats" argument you persist with, nearly everybody else here sees how the Konsa/Carlos combo screws up the balance of the team in and out of possession.
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Don’t care about 18 months of evidence? Cool.
Not forgetting Spurs, Ipswich, Palace, (bizarre when Konsa didn’t play(, Liverpool.
But definitely forgetting Bayern, Young Boys, Bologna, Man Utd.
Not very scientific really is it?
It's definitely not scientific when Cash played v Man U ;)
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We have a fundamental problem in that we can’t keep a clean sheet which should be a basic starting point. Where have all the defenders gone who took pride in keeping a clean sheet, nobody seems bothered anymore! We have the number one goalkeeper in the world and the rest of the defence is a shambles with mistakes galore! Whoever the defence coach is sack them and get somebody in who knows what they are doing!
We will also concede less goals if we retain possession better. You simply cannot do that with Konsa at RB.
It’s almost as if we don’t concede less goals with Konsa at RB.
We don't...4/17 PL goals conceded with Cash at RB, 8/17 with Konsa at RB it looks like (5 with Kosta/Bogarde).
That's just the narrow "stats" argument you persist with, nearly everybody else here sees how the Konsa/Carlos combo screws up the balance of the team in and out of possession.
How ridiculous. He’s hardly played.
Mings goals against stats for last season are better. Do you know why?
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Don’t care about 18 months of evidence? Cool.
Not forgetting Spurs, Ipswich, Palace, (bizarre when Konsa didn’t play(, Liverpool.
But definitely forgetting Bayern, Young Boys, Bologna, Man Utd.
Not very scientific really is it?
It's definitely not scientific when Cash played v Man U ;)
Yes, I remember his through ball to Rashford.
Was that one of the games Ads mentioned then?
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No idea as i'm replying to you and pointing out that it was Cash not Konsa v Man U. Could also add that Konsa went off after 12 mins.
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No idea as i'm replying to you and pointing out that it was Cash not Konsa v Man U. Could also add that Konsa went off after 12 mins.
I was replying to Ads and pointing out the games he’s not mentioning. One of which was Man Utd.
Ads is also critical of Carlos in his highly selective fixture list. A bloke who’s played in every single clean sheet we’ve kept this season.
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What Ads has said is irrelevant to who you said was at RB v Man U.
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What Ads has said is irrelevant to who you said was at RB v Man U.
Where did I say who was RB v Man Utd?
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We've kept 1 clean sheet in the last 16 league games. And 9 in the last 54. Regardless of what combination we put out it isn't performing to a standard that leads to sustained success and hasn't for a long time. Now that the attack is out of form and isn't scoring 2 or 3 on a regular basis to bail out the defence we have what we currently have, A side struggling for wins.
Completely agree on that. I do think the performance yesterday was indicative of something that might get the attack working again. Still need to address the defence though - although the general defending was better yesterday.
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Don’t care about 18 months of evidence? Cool.
Not forgetting Spurs, Ipswich, Palace, (bizarre when Konsa didn’t play(, Liverpool.
But definitely forgetting Bayern, Young Boys, Bologna, Man Utd.
Not very scientific really is it?
It's definitely not scientific when Cash played v Man U ;)
Yes, I remember his through ball to Rashford.
Was that one of the games Ads mentioned then?
The one where Carlos played a Palace player in because he's so error prone. Time has ticked on. It's irrelevant what happened in August 23 or whenever.
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Don’t care about 18 months of evidence? Cool.
Not forgetting Spurs, Ipswich, Palace, (bizarre when Konsa didn’t play(, Liverpool.
But definitely forgetting Bayern, Young Boys, Bologna, Man Utd.
Not very scientific really is it?
It's definitely not scientific when Cash played v Man U ;)
Yes, I remember his through ball to Rashford.
Was that one of the games Ads mentioned then?
The one where Carlos played a Palace player in because he's so error prone. Time has ticked on. It's irrelevant what happened in August 23 or whenever.
You would say that. Your preferred defence was letting loads in against Newcastle and Liverpool. Who would have thought that that clown show would keep clean sheets against Man City and Arsenal three months later? Oh, they didn’t.
I’m surprised you think our games v Young Boys, Bayern, Bologna and Man Utd are irrelevant though. All that money for what?
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17 goals conceded already , worst defence in the top 10 .
It needs sorting as an absolute priority and if that means leaving Torres out so be it
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Is the defence the priority though?
I don’t mean to be glib, but football is about scoring and not conceding.
For me, the more worrisome dimension at the moment is our attacking play.
Maybe we could have a poll on that?
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Is the defence the priority though?
I don’t mean to be glib, but football is about scoring and not conceding.
For me, the more worrisome dimension at the moment is our attacking play.
Maybe we could have a poll on that?
Agreed. I don't want Unai to turn into John Gregory or O'Neill in the hunt for clean sheets. Kick the fuck out of the opposition at the other end of the pitch.
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Is the defence the priority though?
I don’t mean to be glib, but football is about scoring and not conceding.
For me, the more worrisome dimension at the moment is our attacking play.
Maybe we could have a poll on that?
Build from the back, a strong defence is the starting point and a foundation to build upon . Playing football like Kevin Keegan's Newcastle only ends one way
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My prefered defence hasn't played together yet. It definitely doesn't contain our best centre half at right back where he's been poor this season or where it includes Carlos giving a goal away.
We've not played Newcastle yet and we just let in 2 last night against Liverpool. I'm not sure you watch the games.
Evidence for that would be that, despite playing really well and dominating Bologna, they created 4 chances. Bailey doing a Carlos notwithstanding, every attack of purpose was to get between the space of Konsa and Carlos. Konsa being drawn out, Carlos not getting tight. Just poor. It doesn't pass the eye test and is an obvious vulnerability. But, yes, it was a clean sheet so that means it's the best or something.
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My prefered defence hasn't played together yet. It definitely doesn't contain our best centre half at right back where he's been poor this season or where it includes Carlos giving a goal away.
We've not played Newcastle yet and we just let in 2 last night against Liverpool. I'm not sure you watch the games.
Evidence for that would be that, despite playing really well and dominating Bologna, they created 4 chances. Bailey doing a Carlos notwithstanding, every attack of purpose was to get between the space of Konsa and Carlos. Konsa being drawn out, Carlos not getting tight. Just poor. It doesn't pass the eye test and is an obvious vulnerability. But, yes, it was a clean sheet so that means it's the best or something.
Preferred to the one that concedes fewer goals I meant. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Anyway I think not conceding goals, even if it looks ;(to Ads) like we might, is better than letting goals in, but looking (to Ads) like we won’t.
If anything, I think your way would be more fun for fans of the teams we play. Have you thought about pitching it to them?
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Oh god, please make it stop.
It's the new Luke Young saga.
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Is the defence the priority though?
I don’t mean to be glib, but football is about scoring and not conceding.
For me, the more worrisome dimension at the moment is our attacking play.
Maybe we could have a poll on that?
I think you answered your own question in statement 2. Not conceding is a first principle of the game: yes, if we score more than the opposition menas we win, but if we don't score we certainly should avoid conceding.
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Oh god, please make it stop.
It's the new Luke Young saga.
I’m sorry but this is H & V we’re on and if someone is going to die on a proverbial statistical hill then it’s going to be here.
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We've been messing about with different players in defence all season. Right back was a priority in the summer if Ned wasn't ready for the 1st team. FWIW I think he's OK. Taking our best CB and moving him to RB has left us looking vulnerable and Torres/Mings/Carlos seem error prone in a pair without Konsa. We have lost the chemistry in defence and also in midfield from last season, and up front we look powder puff, Watkins seems to have lost his confidence and a yard, Bailey doesn't look fit and Philogene loses the ball for fun. Despite this we are 1 point off third in the table and in the hunt still. I'd spend on a continental right back in January as a priority, and I'd also consider playing Maatsen in front of Digne as a wide attacking midfielder.
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Increasingly it's looking like RB is Emery's blind spot . Square pegs in round holes won't work in this league or the ECL. My top target would be Dumfries but not sure we have the financial wriggle room for him . This is where Monchi needs to earn his corn, go out and find us a quality RB bargain as I don't think Ned is quite ready yet , neither is Bogarde as we've seen .
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Increasingly it's looking like RB is Emery's blind spot . Square pegs in round holes won't work in this league or the ECL.
See, this is the kind of madness that keeps this subject on the boil. We’ve conceded 1 goal in 4 ECL games. Not a one in open play.
How is it not working?
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Increasingly it's looking like RB is Emery's blind spot . Square pegs in round holes won't work in this league or the ECL.
See, this is the kind of madness that keeps this subject on the boil. We’ve conceded 1 goal in 4 ECL games. Not a one in open play.
How is it not working?
If you look at it overall rather than just those 4 games it really doesn't work (in my opinion) Konsa is a CB not a RB, our goals against in the Prem is the worst in the top 10 , he offers very little going forward down the right wing , look at the Ipswich game where he plunders away possession instead of a simple pass and bang they catch us and score . I like Konsa but he's a CB
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We have no combination of defenders that are consistently keeping clean sheets. As great as the CL has been so far if we don't sort out our defending in league games we won't be near qualifying for it next season. 9 in 54 league games is not what regular top 4 sides do. To give it some context, the car crash defence of 2015/16 kept 6 in 38 games.
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Season before last our defence was one of the tightest . That involved Konsa/Mings as the regular CB's . I like Torres he's a cultured passer of the ball but he's a weak CB , as a striker I'd enjoy playing against him ,he's too soft .
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He’s not a weak centre back, he’s the best we have. He might not be the best at physical battles but in the round his ability makes him far too important to the team to drop. Mings is a good player, and is better at physical aerial battles I’m sure, but general positioning, distribution, reading of the game Pau is better. It’s not as simple as looking at one issue and going, “player x might be physically stronger than player y”. It’s a team game and we’re a better team with Pau in it. Also, he did pretty well yesterday against the best side in the league.
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I just look at the stats Paul and we now have enough data to confirm the defence is mid table level , sadly Torres is part of that .
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I just look at the stats Paul and we now have enough data to confirm the defence is mid table level , sadly Torres is part of that .
He's also a very important part of the way we play when we move the ball forward. And that's why looking at statistics does not tell the whole picture.
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I just look at the stats Paul and we now have enough data to confirm the defence is mid table level , sadly Torres is part of that .
He's also a very important part of the way we play when we move the ball forward. And that's why looking at statistics does not tell the whole picture.
Might aswell make that post a sticky! Torres showed character to rebound from maybe his worst game with us v Spurs. That combo of Torres/Digne/Ramsey played out of the press countless times in the first half. The right hand side simply couldn't do it.
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If only there was some way of working out what constitutes a ‘better team’. Like a system of awarding points based on statistics like how many goals they score, and how many they concede.
I don’t think it would ever be as important as beating the press, but it would give us something else to focus on.
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I just look at the stats Paul and we now have enough data to confirm the defence is mid table level , sadly Torres is part of that .
He's also a very important part of the way we play when we move the ball forward. And that's why looking at statistics does not tell the whole picture.
Exactly, this is not baseball and the ode to Paul DePodesta has become pretty boring.
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I just look at the stats Paul and we now have enough data to confirm the defence is mid table level , sadly Torres is part of that .
He's also a very important part of the way we play when we move the ball forward. And that's why looking at statistics does not tell the whole picture.
Exactly, this is not baseball and the ode to Paul DePodesta has become pretty boring.
I don’t think comparing goals and results equates to baseball-levels of statistical analysis.
I take it you would find stuff like ‘chances conceded on right-hand side of defence’ a bit dull and meaningless then, and not post such frivolous guff?
Oh.
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I dont think watching the game is frivolous. Against a much weaker Bologna, as an example, an issue was exposed in the right hand side. The gap between Carlos and an out of position Konsa was exposed multiple times.
The right side was targeted, struggled to progress the ball and looked shakey in the first half in particular. Although their 2nd half chance was probably their best, which again, exposed the right hand side.
You cannot predict Carlos would do what he did on Saturday and another individual error would lead to another goal, but you cannot be suprised either given he's given away 4 of them in 8 or 9 games so far. You equally cannot say Konsa would have done better, but I struggle to recall him giving away goals to individual errors in the past 4 seasons. He is our best centre half.
I am glad Cash is likely to be fit again so Konsa can move inside to partner Torres against Palace. I think everybody is acutely aware of your opinion on Konsa being our best option at right back contrary to the statistical evidence of us conceding fewer goals with Cash on the pitch or a cursory analysis of patterns within games recently.
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I dont think watching the game is frivolous. Against a much weaker Bologna, as an example, an issue was exposed in the right hand side. The gap between Carlos and an out of position Konsa was exposed multiple times.
The right side was targeted, struggled to progress the ball and looked shakey in the first half in particular. Although their 2nd half chance was probably their best, which again, exposed the right hand side.
You cannot predict Carlos would do what he did on Saturday and another individual error would lead to another goal, but you cannot be suprised either given he's given away 4 of them in 8 or 9 games so far. You equally cannot say Konsa would have done better, but I struggle to recall him giving away goals to individual errors in the past 4 seasons. He is our best centre half.
I am glad Cash is likely to be fit again so Konsa can move inside to partner Torres against Palace. I think everybody is acutely aware of your opinion on Konsa being our best option at right back contrary to the statistical evidence of us conceding fewer goals with Cash on the pitch or a cursory analysis of patterns within games recently.
Except it’s not contrary unless you shrink the sample size. Why would one do that?
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Unai has said the Premier League remains his main priority ahead of the Champions League. In the Premier League games, including the 'big' games against Arsenal and Spurs etc, Unai has chosen to start with Cash/Konsa over Carlos. Carlos is clearly a back up central defender, one who we were prepared to sell in the summer if the price was right. Carlos is a decent defender most of the time, but one who is prone to making mistakes that lead directly to goals, as he's done already this season.
Emery is playing Carlos in the Champions League games (and the League Cup) as a way of managing the squad, in the competition that is second (and last for the League Cup) on his list of trophies.
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What potential issues would we have if we played torres and mings as left sided defenders? I mean defensively we alreafy look a shamble could it really be that bad trying it?
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Unai has said the Premier League remains his main priority ahead of the Champions League. In the Premier League games, including the 'big' games against Arsenal and Spurs etc, Unai has chosen to start with Cash/Konsa over Carlos. Carlos is clearly a back up central defender, one who we were prepared to sell in the summer if the price was right. Carlos is a decent defender most of the time, but one who is prone to making mistakes that lead directly to goals, as he's done already this season.
Emery is playing Carlos in the Champions League games (and the League Cup) as a way of managing the squad, in the competition that is second (and last for the League Cup) on his list of trophies.
Debatable I think, as Cash has been mostly unfit.
Last season, with both fit, Enery picked Carlos in all the toughest Premier League games, suggesting he noticed the fact that we are defensively stronger with him in (and it is a fact). This season he told us he wanted to change to building up in a two rather than a three, sacrificing the greater defensive solidity to be more expressive, which is fair enough, but he hasn’t been able to do that with Cash injured and not trusting Ned.
I still think he’d have had Carlos in and Konsa at right-back v Bayern, given the evidence from last season. (Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool H&A).
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What potential issues would we have if we played torres and mings as left sided defenders? I mean defensively we alreafy look a shamble could it really be that bad trying it?
That would be great if it worked. I love what Pau brings to our game, but IMO he needs a strong defensive partner. Same with Konsa. Fantastic one v one defender, and brilliant alongside Mings, but his partnership with Pau is weak. Only the Mings/Konsa partnership have so far proved over a extended period that they are strong enough to play with two traditionally progressive full-backs outside them, and even they were defensively stronger with Ashley Young playing conservatively.
For the record, I think Carlos/Pau would potentially be similarly porous, maybe even more so, were it not for the fact that they’ve nearly always got as good a defender as Konsa shutting down the right side.
It’s all about who compliments each other.
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Unai has said the Premier League remains his main priority ahead of the Champions League. In the Premier League games, including the 'big' games against Arsenal and Spurs etc, Unai has chosen to start with Cash/Konsa over Carlos. Carlos is clearly a back up central defender, one who we were prepared to sell in the summer if the price was right. Carlos is a decent defender most of the time, but one who is prone to making mistakes that lead directly to goals, as he's done already this season.
Emery is playing Carlos in the Champions League games (and the League Cup) as a way of managing the squad, in the competition that is second (and last for the League Cup) on his list of trophies.
Debatable I think, as Cash has been mostly unfit.
Last season, with both fit, Enery picked Carlos in all the toughest Premier League games, suggesting he noticed the fact that we are defensively stronger with him in (and it is a fact). This season he told us he wanted to change to building up in a two rather than a three, sacrificing the greater defensive solidity to be more expressive, which is fair enough, but he hasn’t been able to do that with Cash injured and not trusting Ned.
I still think he’d have had Carlos in and Konsa at right-back v Bayern, given the evidence from last season. (Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool H&A).
Which bit is debatable? With everybody fit, Unai has chosen Cash at right back, over Konsa at RB and Carlos at centre, in the Premier League, every single time, including the "big" games like Arsenal, Spurs and Man U.
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Unai has said the Premier League remains his main priority ahead of the Champions League. In the Premier League games, including the 'big' games against Arsenal and Spurs etc, Unai has chosen to start with Cash/Konsa over Carlos. Carlos is clearly a back up central defender, one who we were prepared to sell in the summer if the price was right. Carlos is a decent defender most of the time, but one who is prone to making mistakes that lead directly to goals, as he's done already this season.
Emery is playing Carlos in the Champions League games (and the League Cup) as a way of managing the squad, in the competition that is second (and last for the League Cup) on his list of trophies.
Debatable I think, as Cash has been mostly unfit.
Last season, with both fit, Enery picked Carlos in all the toughest Premier League games, suggesting he noticed the fact that we are defensively stronger with him in (and it is a fact). This season he told us he wanted to change to building up in a two rather than a three, sacrificing the greater defensive solidity to be more expressive, which is fair enough, but he hasn’t been able to do that with Cash injured and not trusting Ned.
I still think he’d have had Carlos in and Konsa at right-back v Bayern, given the evidence from last season. (Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool H&A).
Which bit is debatable? With everybody fit, Unai has chosen Cash at right back, over Konsa at RB and Carlos at centre, in the Premier League, every single time, including the "big" games like Arsenal, Spurs and Man U.
We don’t really know who he’d pick for what games when some people aren’t fit.
Many posters would prefer a defence which concedes more goals than one that concedes fewer. If that’s debatable, this is.
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Nice postscript. ;D
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We don’t really know who he’d pick for what games when some people aren’t fit.
Many posters are of the opinion that a defence that concedes more goals is better than one that concedes fewer. If that’s debatable, anything is.
We do though when everybody is fit:
West Ham - Cash starting at RB, Carlos on the bench
Arsenal - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Leicester (both Cash and Carlos injured)
Everton - Bogarde at RB, Carlos on the bench
Wolves - Carlos starting, Cash injured
Ipswich - Carlos starting, Cash injured
Man Utd - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Fulham - Cash starting, Carlos starting as replacement for Konsa
Bournemouth - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Tottenham - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Liverpool - Carlos starting, Cash injured
So of our 11 league games, every one Cash has been fit for, he's started. Carlos has only started 4 games, where either Cash or Konsa have been injured. He's only come on as a sub in two others.
And never mind what other posters think, we're not important. Emery and his team are of the opinion that in the league, when everybody is fit, Cash starts at right back and Konsa starts at right centre. I hate doing this, but needs must: Fact.
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Let's split the difference and stick Carlos Cuellar in there.
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We don’t really know who he’d pick for what games when some people aren’t fit.
Many posters are of the opinion that a defence that concedes more goals is better than one that concedes fewer. If that’s debatable, anything is.
We do though when everybody is fit:
West Ham - Cash starting at RB, Carlos on the bench
Arsenal - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Leicester (both Cash and Carlos injured)
Everton - Bogarde at RB, Carlos on the bench
Wolves - Carlos starting, Cash injured
Ipswich - Carlos starting, Cash injured
Man Utd - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Fulham - Cash starting, Carlos starting as replacement for Konsa
Bournemouth - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Tottenham - Cash starting, Carlos on the bench
Liverpool - Carlos starting, Cash injured
So of our 11 league games, every one Cash has been fit for, he's started. Carlos has only started 4 games, where either Cash or Konsa have been injured. He's only come on as a sub in two others.
And never mind what other posters think, we're not important. Emery and his team are of the opinion that in the league, when everybody is fit, Cash starts at right back and Konsa starts at right centre. I hate doing this, but needs must: Fact.
Explains why we’ve only got clean sheets in the CL and v Ten Hag’s goal-shy Manure team.
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Mate, I'm only presenting the facts such as they are. Whatever you think, Emery doesn't appear to agree, so take it up with him. To be honest, apart from a handful of games, the whole defence has been atrocious for the best part of a year, whoever has played, it just looks like a fundamental weakness on Emery's part at this stage. It's gone on for ages, and he's seemingly unable to sort it.
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I really think that the big miss defensively has been Kamara, his defensive positioning is superb, as is his cover of whichever of the full backs has moved forward. Its his absence which has led to us looking less than sound at the back.
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I really think that the big miss defensively has been Kamara, his defensive positioning is superb, as is his cover of whichever of the full backs has moved forward. Its his absence which has led to us looking less than sound at the back.
True, but we should have been able to tighten things up, we knew he was going to be out for the best part of a year. I also think Bailey's dismal form has been a part this season. He's not acting as an outlet, so we stay under pressure for longer, and he's also not getting the ball to Watkins, which is another out ball we're missing out on.
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What potential issues would we have if we played torres and mings as left sided defenders? I mean defensively we alreafy look a shamble could it really be that bad trying it?
That would be great if it worked. I love what Pau brings to our game, but IMO he needs a strong defensive partner. Same with Konsa. Fantastic one v one defender, and brilliant alongside Mings, but his partnership with Pau is weak. Only the Mings/Konsa partnership have so far proved over a extended period that they are strong enough to play with two traditionally progressive full-backs outside them, and even they were defensively stronger with Ashley Young playing conservatively.
For the record, I think Carlos/Pau would potentially be similarly porous, maybe even more so, were it not for the fact that they’ve nearly always got as good a defender as Konsa shutting down the right side.
It’s all about who compliments each other.
On paper mings and pau would be a perfect combo as mings has the defensive qualities that pau lacks and vice versa. Its just a shame they both play on the left side. I wouldn't want to go 3 cbs though.
I agree with you konsa mings is the best combo but the way we play dont see unai leaving pau out.
I wouldnt have minded if unai went konsa- mings for cup game vs palace and had carlos for the league game with pau.
Id like to see how mings and pau would compliment each other in a game. I have a feeling it would work against the lesser sides
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Surely lots of teams play with two right-footed centre backs, due to the fact that only 10% of the population are left handed/footed?
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Another point is that Pau, Digne and Konsa seem to be the best players at holding the offside line which seems very important to UE.
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Surely lots of teams play with two right-footed centre backs, due to the fact that only 10% of the population are left handed/footed?
Yes, but lots of right-footed centre backs have grown up being able to play on the left side, for the same reason.
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I know that Tyrone's right leg is only for standing on, but surely if any left footed defender could cope with playing on the right, it's Torres? He's so good on the ball, surely that's the major requirement if you're playing slightly out of position? He can leave all the dirty tackling to Mings.
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Mate, I'm only presenting the facts such as they are. Whatever you think, Emery doesn't appear to agree, so take it up with him. To be honest, apart from a handful of games, the whole defence has been atrocious for the best part of a year, whoever has played, it just looks like a fundamental weakness on Emery's part at this stage. It's gone on for ages, and he's seemingly unable to sort it.
It's a bit odd as well as that backline was solid as a rock before the turn of this year, the offside trap was so effective and well drilled it was unreal.
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Whichever combination people prefer still concede too many, Cash, Pau and Konsa sometimes look good, too often don't. Same goes for Konsa, Pau and Carlos. The latter were great home and away v Arsenal last season and Bayern this. On the flip side Konsa and Carlos both started the last 3 games v Liverpool, we conceded 8 and got 1 point thanks to Duran saving us late on. For too long we've relied on that, the attack bailing out whichever combination we've had at the back, and now that the attack is out of form we struggle to win.
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Mate, I'm only presenting the facts such as they are. Whatever you think, Emery doesn't appear to agree, so take it up with him. To be honest, apart from a handful of games, the whole defence has been atrocious for the best part of a year, whoever has played, it just looks like a fundamental weakness on Emery's part at this stage. It's gone on for ages, and he's seemingly unable to sort it.
It's a bit odd as well as that backline was solid as a rock before the turn of this year, the offside trap was so effective and well drilled it was unreal.
And it’s why I still think the defensive failings are a symptom more than cause. I still think it’s the lack of control or energy in midfield. You need one or other and a lot of the time we’ve had neither - not to say there aren’t good players in there, but it’s not doing what we need to support the defence.
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Mate, I'm only presenting the facts such as they are. Whatever you think, Emery doesn't appear to agree, so take it up with him. To be honest, apart from a handful of games, the whole defence has been atrocious for the best part of a year, whoever has played, it just looks like a fundamental weakness on Emery's part at this stage. It's gone on for ages, and he's seemingly unable to sort it.
It's a bit odd as well as that backline was solid as a rock before the turn of this year, the offside trap was so effective and well drilled it was unreal.
And it’s why I still think the defensive failings are a symptom more than cause. I still think it’s the lack of control or energy in midfield. You need one or other and a lot of the time we’ve had neither - not to say there aren’t good players in there, but it’s not doing what we need to support the defence.
I agree regarding it being a symptom, but more of the forwards giving up posession too easily with us going in the wrong direction.
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Mate, I'm only presenting the facts such as they are. Whatever you think, Emery doesn't appear to agree, so take it up with him. To be honest, apart from a handful of games, the whole defence has been atrocious for the best part of a year, whoever has played, it just looks like a fundamental weakness on Emery's part at this stage. It's gone on for ages, and he's seemingly unable to sort it.
It's a bit odd as well as that backline was solid as a rock before the turn of this year, the offside trap was so effective and well drilled it was unreal.
And it’s why I still think the defensive failings are a symptom more than cause. I still think it’s the lack of control or energy in midfield. You need one or other and a lot of the time we’ve had neither - not to say there aren’t good players in there, but it’s not doing what we need to support the defence.
Agree, to start with we are now conceding the ball to the opposition more than ever under Emery which puts more pressure on the defence.
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I know that Tyrone's right leg is only for standing on, but surely if any left footed defender could cope with playing on the right, it's Torres? He's so good on the ball, surely that's the major requirement if you're playing slightly out of position? He can leave all the dirty tackling to Mings.
Knowing how strong he is off his left foot, our opponents frequently try and press him on that side so as to prevent him from releasing the ball. I've noticed he sometimes checks back to play off his right - looks ungainly but quite effective.
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Another disasterclass.
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I do think people confuse this - the back 4 in making plenty of mistakes, and clearly has to take a share of the blame, but our work off the ball more generally is pathetic. The midfield is absolutely non-existent in screening the defence. That is the main problem - if you let top flight footballers just run at your defenders you will concede plenty, and that’s exactly what we do.
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Another disasterclass.
It was no hiding that
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Just seen the title of this thread. Has anyone seen our defence for most of 2024? Asking for a friend.
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I appreciate they are injured but I'd like to see Onana and Kamara as our midfield two with Tielemans pushed further forward, Rogers and Ramsey as the wider players who perhaps mix and match their play. As for the actual players who call themselves defenders, I haven't been impressed with Torres, other than his passing, Carlos is built like a wardrobe and, sadly, plays like one. Maatsen will be fine but needs games. The dutch kid isn't up to this level as yet. Thank goodness for Emi, that late save was world class.
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Carlos is horrific. Needs replacing.
And no lengthy post referencing statistics about our defensive line-ups in the last season or two is going to change my mind on that.
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Carlos is horrific. Needs replacing.
And no lengthy post referencing statistics about our defensive line-ups in the last season or two is going to change my mind on that.
He also gives the air of someone who knows he’s likely out of the door.
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Carlos is horrific. Needs replacing.
And no lengthy post referencing statistics about our defensive line-ups in the last season or two is going to change my mind on that.
Completely agree
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Carlos is horrific. Needs replacing.
And no lengthy post referencing statistics about our defensive line-ups in the last season or two is going to change my mind on that.
This is right Paulie as we are comparing apples and oranges. Each season is different and small things can make a difference. Consistency is key and some players have fallen backwards, Carlos included, Cash included, Torres included. We were great last season and managed to get into a pattern, which is not beyond them to get it back but perhaps that was a peak point and we have to consider, if we don't move players on and bring others in, we will further stagnate. Unai worked miracles last season with what he had but needs better players to come in if we want to continually move forward.
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Unai basically hasn’t been able to address what we’ve lost by having Kamara and Doug together. That was when it all worked, ever since they weren’t playing together we have struggled defensively.
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Carlos is horrific. Needs replacing.
And no lengthy post referencing statistics about our defensive line-ups in the last season or two is going to change my mind on that.
Torres was worse today
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Our defence, whilst not absolved of all blame, are getting hung out to dry by our woeful midfield. The sooner we get Kamara back the better we will be defensively.
Tielemans was like a statue against Palace and cost us the points with his half arsed display. Need players back asap.
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I wouldn't say the midfield is 'woeful' exactly, it's just incoherent. Some of that's on the players, some of that's on the shape. Both need to change.
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I wouldn't say the midfield is 'woeful' exactly, it's just incoherent. Some of that's on the players, some of that's on the shape. Both need to change.
Kamara and Luiz was the foundation the team was built on one year ago. One has left and the other has been injured. Replacing what they brought to the team has been our biggest challenge. I am hoping Youri or Onana will flourish along with Kamara whenever he comes back.
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I wouldn't say the midfield is 'woeful' exactly, it's just incoherent. Some of that's on the players, some of that's on the shape. Both need to change.
Kamara and Luiz was the foundation the team was built on one year ago. One has left and the other has been injured. Replacing what they brought to the team has been our biggest challenge. I am hoping Youri or Onana will flourish along with Kamara whenever he comes back.
Bah, I'm posting the same thing on every thread! But it's the balance, Tielemans playing as Riquelme but from a nominal starting 6 position (or rather a FOUR, as God intended). We need to go back to our more patient midfield build-up style or we'll continue to give it away too frequently.
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I think it's about different players and systems for different games. Patient works sometimes, and fails spectacularly at others.
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Youri isnt scoring enough goals for us either. Thats a problem
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Think about that winner at Spurs last season. You had Tielemans able to thread his eye of the needle ball, safe in the knowledge that Kamara was going to hoover up absolutely everything and possession would recycle quicker/space would be denied. Tielemans is excellent, he has been our best player this season. Form has dipped a bit, but he needs that help in the middle.
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
100% agree, it would make us so much more solid, we can’t keep shipping goals at this rate and expect to finish in the European places.
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
He’s never played a 3 at the back as a manager has he, unless you mean Konsa back at right back. We actually have the personnel to play the 3-4-3 that the new Man U manager plays, but Unai seems very wedded to 4-4-2.
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
He’s never played a 3 at the back as a manager has he, unless you mean Konsa back at right back. We actually have the personnel to play the 3-4-3 that the new Man U manager plays, but Unai seems very wedded to 4-4-2.
good
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
He’s never played a 3 at the back as a manager has he, unless you mean Konsa back at right back. We actually have the personnel to play the 3-4-3 that the new Man U manager plays, but Unai seems very wedded to 4-4-2.
I swear he did against spurs at villa
Park last season where spurs battered us 4-0?
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Our problem yesterday was that neither Tielemans or Barkley were covering the DM position (or at least not covering it effectively).
By playing a ridiculously out of form Rogers behind Watkins, we are essentially a man down in midfield. Against Juve, I think Rogers should either be dropped or played on left wing, with that #10 role replaced by a DM (*possibly McGinn based on who is fit), who doesn't move from in front of the centre backs, freeing up Barkley and Tielemans to do their stuff up the pitch.
I'd also bring Mings in for Torres - Stronger and much more vocal. Give Pau a few weeks with some home cooked meals, protein powder, and be locked in the gym.
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
He’s never played a 3 at the back as a manager has he, unless you mean Konsa back at right back. We actually have the personnel to play the 3-4-3 that the new Man U manager plays, but Unai seems very wedded to 4-4-2.
we play 3 at the back whenever the ball is moved upfield, with one fullback pushed up. Several teams play 3 CB, with 2 attacking wingbacks. We have the personnel to make it work.
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Think about that winner at Spurs last season. You had Tielemans able to thread his eye of the needle ball, safe in the knowledge that Kamara was going to hoover up absolutely everything and possession would recycle quicker/space would be denied. Tielemans is excellent, he has been our best player this season. Form has dipped a bit, but he needs that help in the middle.
Agree with this. You can then have Rogers/Bailey and McGinn/Ramsey interchangeable
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Think it's time to rest Rogers he's been awful of late and loses possession too much. We really need some of the walking wounded back ASAP
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What I don’t understand is, it’s sometimes obvious early on, that teams have understood our game plan, with all our touchline screaming and arm waving surely we are able to react. Am I being naive?
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Think about that winner at Spurs last season. You had Tielemans able to thread his eye of the needle ball, safe in the knowledge that Kamara was going to hoover up absolutely everything and possession would recycle quicker/space would be denied. Tielemans is excellent, he has been our best player this season. Form has dipped a bit, but he needs that help in the middle.
Agree with this. You can then have Rogers/Bailey and McGinn/Ramsey interchangeable
Also agreed! Without the safety net that is Kamara we will continue to look vulnerable at the back, especially on the counter-attack.
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It's fine margins and right now things are going against us rather than for us as they were.
Silly mistakes keep happening but it's because the defence just aren't protected enough. Our left hand side always seems solid, the right however, is an issue, and there's no Kamara drifting back to cover. It just suits him perfectly.
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It's fine margins and right now things are going against us rather than for us as they were.
Silly mistakes keep happening but it's because the defence just aren't protected enough. Our left hand side always seems solid, the right however, is an issue, and there's no Kamara drifting back to cover. It just suits him perfectly.
The defence has been crap for ages though, but we were mostly managing to outscore the opponents. Now we're not, and we're drifting down the table. The last half of last season we were 9th on points gained, with the 15th best defensive record in the league in that time. Now we're 8th with the 14th best defensive record. It shows that for coming on for a whole season's worth of games, that the defence is costing us time and time again, and unless things improve rapidly, we're going to be in for a season of midtable disappointment. Everybody keeps saying Emery will sort it, but when?
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It's fine margins and right now things are going against us rather than for us as they were.
Silly mistakes keep happening but it's because the defence just aren't protected enough. Our left hand side always seems solid, the right however, is an issue, and there's no Kamara drifting back to cover. It just suits him perfectly.
I think alot of the silly mistakes are individual mistakes like stupid passes on edge of our box. Cant blame all of it on no midfield protection.
Its the clubs fault for poorly planning. We all knew kamara was coming back from a long term injury. Enzo should have been kept for example or got a loan in.
Also we let a quality player like chalobah go to palace. A loan for him would have been great for us
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Emery set us up to be hard to beat in his first 3-6 months. Maybe we need to re-learn that again and omit an attacking player?
However it's hard to judge exactly where we are without Kamara providing the safety net. Both Luiz and Tielemans have struggled without him.
----------Martinez-----------
Konsa - Mings - Pau - Digne
----Onana------Kamara-----
-----------Tielemans--------
Bailey----Watkins-----Morgan
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It's fine margins and right now things are going against us rather than for us as they were.
Silly mistakes keep happening but it's because the defence just aren't protected enough. Our left hand side always seems solid, the right however, is an issue, and there's no Kamara drifting back to cover. It just suits him perfectly.
The defence has been crap for ages though, but we were mostly managing to outscore the opponents. Now we're not, and we're drifting down the table. The last half of last season we were 9th on points gained, with the 15th best defensive record in the league in that time. Now we're 8th with the 14th best defensive record. It shows that for coming on for a whole season's worth of games, that the defence is costing us time and time again, and unless things improve rapidly, we're going to be in for a season of midtable disappointment. Everybody keeps saying Emery will sort it, but when?
defensively Emery has some tough decisions to make which may well test his stubborn side. One things for sure, the defence isn't right and we are far too easy to score against . Probably why we didn't win the Conference even though we were clear favourites .
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I have fond memories of that formation away at Brighton i think in his 2nd game when protecting that 2-1 lead. It was sumptuous. What happened to that?
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As I said in the post-match thread, Mings alongside Torres and Konsa seems like an obvious defensive set-up to me, with Onana and Kamara ahead of them. With those 5 forming a solid core, we have more licence to exploit the wide areas as well as covering the current gaps.
He’s never played a 3 at the back as a manager has he, unless you mean Konsa back at right back. We actually have the personnel to play the 3-4-3 that the new Man U manager plays, but Unai seems very wedded to 4-4-2.
we play 3 at the back whenever the ball is moved upfield, with one fullback pushed up. Several teams play 3 CB, with 2 attacking wingbacks. We have the personnel to make it work.
It means dropping Cash and Digne though, they have been our two best defenders this season but are not wing backs. Emery clearly doesn't think Kosta is ready (thinking Bogarde is has been a poor decision) and Maatsen's performances have been mixed too.
Id be thinking go back with Konsa and Mings for 3-4 games. We will lose Torres playmaking abilities but I'm convinced we will be a lot more organised. Cash and Digne in and continue to give Maatsen minutes off the bench. We need one of Onana or Kamara fit asap starting with Juve. Tielemans and Barkley are liabilities out of possession. I'd put McGinn in there on Wed if Onana isn't back.
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Emery set us up to be hard to beat in his first 3-6 months. Maybe we need to re-learn that again and omit an attacking player?
However it's hard to judge exactly where we are without Kamara providing the safety net. Both Luiz and Tielemans have struggled without him.
----------Martinez-----------
Konsa - Mings - Pau - Digne
----Onana------Kamara-----
-----------Tielemans--------
Bailey----Watkins-----Morgan
If everyone was fit and available the above is what I would start.
First off the bench:
Maasten
Cash
McGinn
Barkely
Buendia
Duran
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Emery set us up to be hard to beat in his first 3-6 months. Maybe we need to re-learn that again and omit an attacking player?
However it's hard to judge exactly where we are without Kamara providing the safety net. Both Luiz and Tielemans have struggled without him.
----------Martinez-----------
Konsa - Mings - Pau - Digne
----Onana------Kamara-----
-----------Tielemans--------
Bailey----Watkins-----Morgan
If everyone was fit and available the above is what I would start.
First off the bench:
Maasten
Cash
McGinn
Barkely
Buendia
Duran
Im not sure about buendia mate. He has been dire every time he has come on. The injury looks to ahve finished him
I didnt really rate him that much as others before the injury but he does look worse than before for sure. The limited game time i think unai agrees
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I forgot about Ramsey - who would be before Emi2, but who else as the option to replace Tielemans?
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I appreciate they are injured but I'd like to see Onana and Kamara as our midfield two with Tielemans pushed further forward, Rogers and Ramsey as the wider players who perhaps mix and match their play. As for the actual players who call themselves defenders, I haven't been impressed with Torres, other than his passing, Carlos is built like a wardrobe and, sadly, plays like one. Maatsen will be fine but needs games. The dutch kid isn't up to this level as yet. Thank goodness for Emi, that late save was world class.
Steve, the Dutch kid IS Maatsen.
If you're referring to the Serbian kid (Nedeljkovic), he's a full Serbian international and needs games. If we want our fullbacks to be a little more attacking, with pace, then Maatsen and Nedeljkovic outside Mings, Torres and Konsa would be fab!
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I appreciate they are injured but I'd like to see Onana and Kamara as our midfield two with Tielemans pushed further forward, Rogers and Ramsey as the wider players who perhaps mix and match their play. As for the actual players who call themselves defenders, I haven't been impressed with Torres, other than his passing, Carlos is built like a wardrobe and, sadly, plays like one. Maatsen will be fine but needs games. The dutch kid isn't up to this level as yet. Thank goodness for Emi, that late save was world class. Steve, the Dutch kid IS Maatsen.
If you're referring to the Serbian kid (Nedeljkovic), he's a full Serbian international and needs games. If we want our fullbacks to be a little more attacking, with pace, then Maatsen and Nedeljkovic outside Mings, Torres and Konsa would be fab!
I think the 'Dutch kid' here is Bogarde
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Emery set us up to be hard to beat in his first 3-6 months. Maybe we need to re-learn that again and omit an attacking player?
However it's hard to judge exactly where we are without Kamara providing the safety net. Both Luiz and Tielemans have struggled without him.
----------Martinez-----------
Konsa - Mings - Pau - Digne
----Onana------Kamara-----
-----------Tielemans--------
Bailey----Watkins-----Morgan
If everyone was fit and available the above is what I would start.
First off the bench:
Maasten
Cash
McGinn
Barkely
Buendia
Duran
Im not sure about buendia mate. He has been dire every time he has come on. The injury looks to ahve finished him
I didnt really rate him that much as others before the injury but he does look worse than before for sure. The limited game time i think unai agrees
Thought Buendia looked lively when on v Palace , better than Rogers on the day
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I forgot about Ramsey - who would be before Emi2, but who else as the option to replace Tielemans?
Ramsey > McGinn > Buendia
it’s actually thr position where I think we have most cover. Whereas I think Bailey is being selected as he’s basically our only winger.
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Just came across this shocker of a stat:
"Only Brentford, West Ham, Wolves and Sheffield United (genuinely impressive) have conceded more Premier League goals in 2024 than Villa (53), who have scored 52 in that time."
We really do need to stop conceding silly goals.
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Maybe we should go Bruceball; tighten the defence so we don't concede and try and nick one.
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The defence is part of the problem, but it’s the midfield that is causing the problems. If you track back performance and personnel it’s pretty clear where it started to go wrong and that the defence is a symptom rather than the specific cause (acknowledging there are individual cock ups being made as well).
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And there you go - the defences isn’t incompetent, once the midfield starts doing its job it looks much more solid.
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Can we please translate this to the league?
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Can we please translate this to the league?
No. We'll be 1 down after five minutes when I check my phone in Aldi. As is the norm.
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Helps a bit though when your opponents don't have any fit strikers.
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This has got to stop.
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Toronto provided some insight given by Transwell at the Athletic and the pursuit of defenders.
Shared here for discussion
Intentions to sign a central defender grew through January.
Villa were open to selling Diego Carlos over the past year, but a move away this winter felt unlikely given he was a regular in Emery’s side.
What could not be accounted for was Diego Carlos’ desire to leave. He had found Fenerbahce as a buyer and made it known he wanted to go. A week before a €10m (£8.4m/$10.5m) agreement was finalised, he said his goodbyes to staff and team-mates despite Villa rejecting the Turkish club’s opening proposal.
Although Villa received external criticism for allowing Diego Carlos to depart without sourcing a replacement, senior figures felt they could do little to keep him. Those frustrations were crystallised in the 2-0 away defeat at Wolverhampton Wanderers, with Boubacar Kamara, a key midfielder, moonlighting in central defence.
Difficulties with Diego Carlos were exacerbated by the pursuit of Loic Bade. He was a target of Monchi’s, having signed him at Sevilla in 2023. Villa made a series of offers, with the final bid worth €23m plus €3m in add-ons, which was thought to be around Sevilla’s asking price.
Bade, however, had doubts concerning game time and the presence of Ezri Konsa in the right centre-back position. Paris Saint-Germain’s Milan Skriniar was looked at briefly until his prohibitive salary became apparent.
Relying on a network of contacts was demonstrated in Villa’s interest in Juan Foyth. Emery worked with Foyth at Villarreal and has wanted to be reunited, citing his tactical intelligence and versatility. Foyth became aware of Villa’s advances, though no agreement was close. The defender’s injury record — missing 42 games across the previous two seasons — gave concern and by the final week of the window, there was no chance of his signing.
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Transwell!
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I feel mostly for Martinez. He deserves more clean sheets
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Disasi / Mings / Konsa , that's a top table set of defensive CB's
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Tel wouldn’t be scoring that goal if had centre backs on pitch similar Wolves and Cunha wouldn’t be scoring if had two centre backs on the pitch.
Delap can be a handful but like to think can keep a clean sheet v Ipswich.
Probably get them against Liverpool and Chelsea instead though!
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Sigh.
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The defence were terrible, but the whole team defensively was atrocious. They didn’t track runners, lost 50/50s, ball watched. That second half was like a relegated side, it was that bad.
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Is abysmal. Too much ball watching, too easy to get crosses in against, too easy to get across the front of, too easy to win second balls against and too slow to get back when pushing forwards.
All in all in, this season we've been a shambles at the back. I'm sick of seeing Konsa and his mini tantrums.
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Fucking atrocious
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Im literally ok sacking the load of them and getting a new back four in. Only digne is one i would keep from today
Bogarde is a handy player to keep as cover and garcia keep
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Im literally ok sacking the load of them and getting a new back four in. Only digne is one i would keep from today
Bogarde is a handy player to keep as cover and garcia keep
Sack the lot of them except for 3 of the 5.
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Im literally ok sacking the load of them and getting a new back four in. Only digne is one i would keep from today
Bogarde is a handy player to keep as cover and garcia keep
Sack the lot of them except for 3 of the 5.
And one is a loanee so basically sack Konsa lol
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The defence were appalling but as I’ve said before it’s not just about the defence or who’s in it. It is a structural/tactical issue across the whole side.
When we lose the ball in midfield it is frightening how exposed we are defensively, every single time.
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Im literally ok sacking the load of them and getting a new back four in. Only digne is one i would keep from today
Bogarde is a handy player to keep as cover and garcia keep
Sack the lot of them except for 3 of the 5.
Are you suggesting we should sack boagrde and digne?
Im literally ok sacking the load of them and getting a new back four in. Only digne is one i would keep from today
Bogarde is a handy player to keep as cover and garcia keep
Sack the lot of them except for 3 of the 5.
And one is a loanee so basically sack Konsa lol
You can sack him by not making the move permanent 😉
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Mental to think we're probably gonna end-up with more clean sheets in the Champions League than the Premier League this season.
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The defence were appalling but as I’ve said before it’s not just about the defence or who’s in it. It is a structural/tactical issue across the whole side.
When we lose the ball in midfield it is frightening how exposed we are defensively, every single time.
This hypothesis seems to be gathering credibility. But when Emery first arrived we were super solid defensively so how has he structurally weakened us .
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Mental to think we're probably gonna end-up with more clean sheets in the Champions League than the Premier League this season.
A lot of those CL group stage games were played at a pedestrian pace, even Carlos looked ok playing the ball out from the back under no pressure. Press our defenders, any combo of them it seems, and they crumble. RBL proved that in about a 20min spell.
That's with Cash & Digne having their best seasons with us. Every centre back we have played this season has been rubbish, Disasi tonight was just like Carlos. Looks the part but bullied in nearly every contest.
Not sure what the answer is. We have gone from pressing hard and a high offside line to a weird low tempo containment game. We look so vulnerable defending counters, even from our own set pieces earlier in the season. Everything about this season has been muddled.
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You can sack him by not making the move permanent 😉
That’s not how ‘sacking’ works.
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Carlos is horrific. Needs replacing.
And no lengthy post referencing statistics about our defensive line-ups in the last season or two is going to change my mind on that.
Just saw this. Seems weird categorising football results as ‘statistics’. Like, here are tonight’s football statistics: Crystal Palace 4, Aston Villa 1.
But yeah, who cares which defenders keep the most clean sheets and concede the fewest goals? As if that’s in any way relevant to the job.
So… Olsen in, amirite?
All this reminds me of the zonal marking debate years ago. One season, we did it, and conceded one goal from a set piece all season - the best in the country. The next season, with the same players, we opted to man-mark and conceded 28 - the worst in the country.
Cue lots of ‘I don’t care about stats, I prefer man-marking’ posts, along with the classic idiocy ‘I never saw space score a goal’. It might sound ridiculous, but it went on for months. So people putting vibes above conceding fewer goals and keeping more clean sheets is nothing new. But I’ll always want us to concede fewer goals and keep more clean sheets, and no amount of posts will change my mind on that.
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I think the issue is that you seem to be implying there is, or was, a magic bullet in terms of the personnel in defence that turns us from hopeless to good. I don’t think that’s the case. There are different combinations that make us a bit better or a bit worse, but the underlying systemic flaws are still there.
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I think the issue is that you seem to be implying there is, or was, a magic bullet in terms of the personnel in defence that turns us from hopeless to good. I don’t think that’s the case. There are different combinations that make us a bit better or a bit worse, but the underlying systemic flaws are still there.
Not at all. We just had one back four that was objectively more competent and occasionally outstanding over a season and a half. I preferred that one over all the other worse ones. Some people preferred the worse ones. Each to their own I suppose.
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I’m probably talking bollocks here, but our back 4 has swapped around all season. I dunno, but I just think that for defenders communication seems such a big thing - particularly how we play, with that high line - that you need the same set of players together consistently.
But whatever it is, we really need to sort it out and quickly because it’s massively sabotaging us.
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If the chopping and changing of players is affecting our high line then we can't play the high line. Simple as that. You can't just rigidly stick to a philosophy despite the evidence proving it isn't working because of certain situations you are in. That's what Postecoglu does and he rightly gets panned for it.
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When everyone is fit you could almost have two regular back 4s - stick to those as much as possible - easier said than done though with our injuries. But never a 3!
Maatsen Torres Desasi Garcia
Digne Mings Konsa Cash
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When everyone is fit you could almost have two regular back 4s - stick to those as much as possible - easier said than done though with our injuries. But never a 3!
Maatsen Torres Desasi Garcia
Digne Mings Konsa Cash
The Mings Konsa Cash combo best days are behind it I fear.
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The goals we give away are laughable. Letting players run into your box unmarked has never worked and it drives me up the wall.
We gift teams goals and unless we get this right we aren’t going anywhere. If they aren’t good enough we need to protect them but we’ve got both Kamara and Onana out.
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If the chopping and changing of players is affecting our high line then we can't play the high line. Simple as that. You can't just rigidly stick to a philosophy despite the evidence proving it isn't working because of certain situations you are in. That's what Postecoglu does and he rightly gets panned for it.
We don’t play a high line any more. I can only think of the Liverpool game where it has been used this season.
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Three clean sheets in last 32 premier league games.
Think we know what area needs heavy investment in summer. Terrible record tbh
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4 clean sheets in 29 matches: allseason
Martinez has kept 3 clean sheets in 28 matches.
Olsen kept one against Brentford in last prem game.
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When everyone is fit you could almost have two regular back 4s - stick to those as much as possible - easier said than done though with our injuries. But never a 3!
Maatsen Torres Desasi Garcia
Digne Mings Konsa Cash
The Mings Konsa Cash combo best days are behind it I fear.
They never really had many good days, although Mings and Konsa were pretty good with Young at right-back.
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Kortney Hause played in the Senior Cup recently….crisis averted!!!
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Kortney Hause played in the Senior Cup recently….crisis averted!!!
. That's Saint Kortney Hause of the Miracle of Old Trafford to you.
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Kortney Hause played in the Senior Cup recently….crisis averted!!!
. That's Saint Kortney Hause of the Miracle of Old Trafford to you.
Goes without saying….surely….