Our defence

[PaulWinch again]

IIRC Moreno struggled for the first few games following his forced introduction. That's my only hope for Torres, the alternative is not good.

“Only hope” is a bit dramatic. He’s a talented player he’ll work it out. It doesn’t matter who you swap in if our midfield performs like it did today.

That is a valid point but then again look at stuff like how he got totally outmuscled for Burnley’s goal.

That’s an example of what is worrying, that was an individual weakness

It’s correctable though. I get the point being made, but you don’t play deep into the Champions League or multiple times for Spain if you can’t cope physically. As others have highlighted, Moreno looked a bit meh initially. It can happen and Torres has played in a high line for Emery very successfully, he can do it.

[Risso]

Physicality is a lot more important at centre back than it is at full back though, plus Moreno is quite quick whereas Torres isn’t. He’ll probably be OK at home and against lower teams with not much pace. I think it might be a season where we don’t do very well against the top 6 though.

[PaulWinch again]

We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.

[SoccerHQ]

We simply can't play the high line as effectively without Mings at the heart of it. Moreno aswell as Digne frequently got caught out by high balls over the top today (for all his good forward play).

We need to tweak it for the tougher away games like Spurs away last season which was an effective low block first half and then seeing how bad Spurs were we then pushed forward and comfortably won the game in the second.

That needs to be the template for Chelsea away in three weeks time. Infact Forest basically did it exactly like that yesterday.

UE's an intelligent manager so I think he'll be realising by now how much of a miss Mings is for these tricky away games and we'll get exposed at VP aswell.

[PaulWinch again]

We simply can't play the high line as effectively without Mings at the heart of it. Moreno aswell as Digne frequently got caught out by high balls over the top today (for all his good forward play).

We need to tweak it for the tougher away games like Spurs away last season which was an effective low block first half and then seeing how bad Spurs were we then pushed forward and comfortably won the game in the second.

That needs to be the template for Chelsea away in three weeks time. Infact Forest basically did it exactly like that yesterday.

UE's an intelligent manager so I think he'll be realising by now how much of a miss Mings is for these tricky away games and we'll get exposed at VP aswell.

Not convinced by this at all. If we were getting the midfield press right and still being run ragged I think you’d have a point. But Mings in that performance faces the same issues.

[AV84]

^ I think that's why we either look amazing or abysmal, it's a system that requires the entire team to be 100% switched on from the start. One thing goes wrong and everything goes wrong.

[SoccerHQ]

We simply can't play the high line as effectively without Mings at the heart of it. Moreno aswell as Digne frequently got caught out by high balls over the top today (for all his good forward play).

We need to tweak it for the tougher away games like Spurs away last season which was an effective low block first half and then seeing how bad Spurs were we then pushed forward and comfortably won the game in the second.

That needs to be the template for Chelsea away in three weeks time. Infact Forest basically did it exactly like that yesterday.

UE's an intelligent manager so I think he'll be realising by now how much of a miss Mings is for these tricky away games and we'll get exposed at VP aswell.

Not convinced by this at all. If we were getting the midfield press right and still being run ragged I think you’d have a point. But Mings in that performance faces the same issues.

I'm not saying we've never had a terrible performance with Mings playing but I think people took his recovery pace for granted when balls were played over the top and forward used to get half a yard before Mings would step it up and nip in ahead to get the ball.

I'm afraid on the turn Carlos and Pau don't give me the same feeling so would rather move Konsa back inside.

It's a little thing but two top level teams have already exposed it so no reason why others won't.

[PaulWinch again]

But the point is they’ve exposed us when we’ve got a centre back pairing who are completely new to the league. They’ll learn and I suspect the midfield will get much better, so I’d hope we’ve been caught because we’ve had two really bloody hard away games at the point we’re still finding our feet. I am pretty sure Pau and DC will be much better with some more games under their belts.

[brontebilly]

I think Torres is the ideal player for how Emery envisions us playing. But he's brought him in before we've actually manged to play like that with any kind of consistency. Add then the Mings injury and Torres having to play all the matches immediately, and it doesn't look like all that great a signing.

Torres was never going to play next to Mings, the thought of either of them playing RCB is daft. If we play a high line then Torres is a liability. Without Carlos and Mings, I'd really fear for our ability to defend set pieces. Torres certainly won't win many header and it isn't Konsa's strength either. Thought it was a strange signing from the get go.

I didn't say anything about Torres playing next to Mings. I actually assumed he'd slowly phase Mings out over the season. My point was that Mings getting injured meant Torres was thrown right into the starting lineup instead of being slowly introduced and given a chance to gradually adapt to the pace and physical nature of the Premier League.

I agree with you, signing Torres had to be about gradually moving Mings on....which struck me as very strange to start with as Mings was in great form last term post Gerrard. But if there was ever a case of you don't know what you have got til it's gone it's with Mings. No recovery pace at all down our left flank today or any bit of physicality. Torres is physically weak and incredibly slow...how far behind Nunez for the second goal today was he...those aren't things easily rectified during a season. Whats worse for me is we have brought in Lenglet who has those same flaws to compete for the same spot.

Burnley goal aside, thought Torres showed worrying signs even in that game. Caught badly flat footed before half time but the Burnley forward put it over. Same even v Everton, Danjuma breezed past him at one stage but Martinez saved. Today he played against elite forwards and he was humiliated.

[LeeB]

We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.

The small sample is pretty damning though.

It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.

[PaulWinch again]

We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.

The small sample is pretty damning though.

It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.

I’ll come back to the point that he’s done it in elite European competition and for Spain, he’ll have faced the type of threats he’s facing. I don’t think we should underestimate that the plan was clearly to bed him into the team, but he’s now basically the most senior centre back. That’s an awful lot on him. He’ll sort it.

[LeeB]

I do hope so

[Risso]

The thing is, some players seem to have the attributes for the Premier League, and some just don't.  It's not like Torres is 19 and still has some filling out to do. 26 isn't old of course, but if he's not strong enough, he's just not strong enough. His skill and passing will be an asset when we have the majority of possession in games, but the goal against Burnley was a dismal bit of play from him and showed his physical limitations, and he was unbelievably bad today. I hope he does improve I really do, but if Carlos is fit after the international break, I'd be picking Cash-Konsa-Carlos-Digne.

[pauliewalnuts]

We’ll see, but I suspect we’re drawing too sweeping a conclusion from a very small sample size.

The small sample is pretty damning though.

It's great that he can play out but that needs to be on top of being able to defend, not instead of. At the minute he looks like a midfielder that's been converted to defence and is struggling with the concept, and every other team will be targeting him.

I’ll come back to the point that he’s done it in elite European competition and for Spain, he’ll have faced the type of threats he’s facing. I don’t think we should underestimate that the plan was clearly to bed him into the team, but he’s now basically the most senior centre back. That’s an awful lot on him. He’ll sort it.

I think the problem might not be so much him in general, but his ability to play the way we play.

With that high line (and I know, it's boring hearing people go on about it, so apols), when he gets into a situation where he needs to use his pace, I am looking through my fingers, as I know he hasn't got any pace.

He's slow. To get over that he needs to make up for it with his game-savvy so fingers crossed that happens soon.

[RamboandBruno]

A centre back whom our elite manager has essentially said, he’s never worked with a centre back so good, or words to a similar effect. Is seemingly being written off after four league games, and two poor performances when every other fecker on the pitch was as bad.

Bronte has essentially picked on every single negative, like Danjuma running past him the other week and ignoring anything good he’s done in those games.