Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Mister E on February 21, 2017, 06:51:34 AM
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Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?
We have burned through a veritable Who's Who of managers since the petulant departure of MON. Bruce arrived with a good record at Hull and a reputation of being pragmatically effective. Lambert - having had a torrid time - once again seems to be recovering the lustre he developed at Colchester and Naarrich.
So, what is it about B6 that apparently puts the hex on managers?
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All go into their shell and are more interested in not losing than winning.
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one thing I do know is that they are massively over rewarded. If Lambert is being rehabilitated at the Dog head's, I very much doubt they are paying as much as we did for the privilege. Paying £2m plus a year to Rafa is a world away from doing so to have some of the charlatan's we've had sitting in the Manager's seat at BH
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All go into their shell and are more interested in not losing than winning.
Why?
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one thing I do know is that they are massively over rewarded. If Lambert is being rehabilitated at the Dog head's, I very much doubt they are paying as much as we did for the privilege. Paying £2m plus a year to Rafa is a world away from doing so to have some of the charlatan's we've had sitting in the Manager's seat at BH
If we pay so well, why have we not attracted someone who can get a grip on things and make a difference?
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I wish I knew - that's the key question isn't it. if we had appointed Rafa a few years back and given him half the money we've wasted since, the subsequent narrative wouldn't have been so tragic, imo.
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My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome. Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.
There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought. Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.
So it has become with us. We have become a managerial cash cow. Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans. Get rich. Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in. Look worried. Shuffle the deck. Get the sack. Get even richer. Ghost write My Villa Hell. Repeat.
We need a manager with a brain. We need above all an intelligent, thinking man. I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.
It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality. It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past. Negativity. The fear of losing.
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My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome. Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.
There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought. Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.
So it has become with us. We have become a managerial cash cow. Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans. Get rich. Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in. Look worried. Shuffle the deck. Get the sack. Get even richer. Ghost write My Villa Hell. Repeat.
We need a manager with a brain. We need above all an intelligent, thinking man. I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.
It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality. It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past. Negativity. The fear of losing.
Interesting thoughts, Brian. Thanks.
And, I'd ask: all that despite a change in ownership and various senior off-pitch leaders?
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it's been done to death on this thread and others but simplistically you need someone like Rafa who is an intelligent manager but one who has to operate with an expansive budget to fulfil his mission or an antediluvian down in the dirt bruiser like Warnock who can organise workmanlike cohesive units without so much of the folding stuff - not easy on the eye but almost guaranteed not to get you relegated.
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Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?
We have burned through a veritable Who's Who of managers since the petulant departure of MON. Bruce arrived with a good record at Hull and a reputation of being pragmatically effective. Lambert - having had a torrid time - once again seems to be recovering the lustre he developed at Colchester and Naarrich.
So, what is it about B6 that apparently puts the hex on managers?
The managerial graveyard at Villa Park goes back over 25 years, only GT first time around got a better job post Villa. The role has finished the managerial careers of a number of them.
There is obviously more to it than the man in charge, the support structure behind the scenes must be appalling
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Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?
We have burned through a veritable Who's Who of managers since the petulant departure of MON. Bruce arrived with a good record at Hull and a reputation of being pragmatically effective. Lambert - having had a torrid time - once again seems to be recovering the lustre he developed at Colchester and Naarrich.
So, what is it about B6 that apparently puts the hex on managers?
The managerial graveyard at Villa Park goes back over 25 years, only GT first time around got a better job post Villa. The role has finished the managerial careers of a number of them.
There is obviously more to it than the man in charge, the support structure behind the scenes must be appalling
And how do you think that has been allowed to continue for over 25 years?
And, in that time there have been flashes where the manager has overcome the apparently-corrosive environment - BFR, Sir Brian, MON ....
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it's been done to death on this thread and others but simplistically you need someone like Rafa who is an intelligent manager but one who has to operate with an expansive budget to fulfil his mission or an antediluvian down in the dirt bruiser like Warnock who can organise workmanlike cohesive units without so much of the folding stuff - not easy on the eye but almost guaranteed not to get you relegated.
And how do we knoww whether Rafa might not have succumbed to the same toxic environment as others have?
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Who is the manager that can turn round the toxic atmosphere around the club and particularly in the dressing room which is still stinking the place out despite the turnover in personnel and a much improved backroom structure? We are so far away from being a 'team' in every sense of the word and it has been like that at various levels for several years now. The fans have no pride in their team. The team have no affinity to the club, fans or each other. It remains completely broken
Bruce has a decent reputation for being a strong character and should command a lot of respect for his achievements in the game, but you can visibly see it weighing him down. I really don't where we can go for a manager to turn this round.
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Houllier was and would have continued to turn us around had he not become ill. He was a top class manager
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I agree what we need is a top class Manager, we pay massive wages to our Managers, and for me we seem to appoint average Joe's.
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Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?
We have burned through a veritable Who's Who of managers since the petulant departure of MON. Bruce arrived with a good record at Hull and a reputation of being pragmatically effective. Lambert - having had a torrid time - once again seems to be recovering the lustre he developed at Colchester and Naarrich.
So, what is it about B6 that apparently puts the hex on managers?
The managerial graveyard at Villa Park goes back over 25 years, only GT first time around got a better job post Villa. The role has finished the managerial careers of a number of them.
There is obviously more to it than the man in charge, the support structure behind the scenes must be appalling
And how do you think that has been allowed to continue for over 25 years?
And, in that time there have been flashes where the manager has overcome the apparently-corrosive environment - BFR, Sir Brian, MON ....
Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose, BL fine young team fell apart as did the manager himself, MONs was given too much control and it put us up shit creek financially. Looks like we have bet the parachute money on a first time promotion with risible results.
We need to bring in Southamptons old chief executive and gut the club from top to bottom. The corrosive influences at the club obviously go a lot deeper than the first team dressing room.
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For me we need a manager who actually gets us. Step forward Dean Smith. He always our the club before his own ego and would truly feel honoured to be with us
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My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome. Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.
I'd tend to agree with you if it were two or three managers, but it's been seven (7!) not including MacDonald's and McAllister's little terms. Different styles, different ages, different players, different staff, different owners... All of them reduced to shuffling wrecks or rabbits in the headlights. All of them eventually making bizarre team choices and watching impotently from the touchlines every time we collapse after conceding. On that last point alone: I can't keep up with stats and don't remember many specific games that I've not watched, but even I recall a common complaint on here being that every one of those disperate and desperate men haven't been pro-active enough when it comes to changing things during a game. How can that possibly be? How can seven different managers succumb to that same fault? I know I'm only rephrasing Mister E's initial post, but it beggers belief that they end up so similar.
When I get to Villa Park (admittedly not often - three or four games a season), I don't think the supporters are on the players' or manager's backs, particularly. Quite the opposite, in fact. My only guess is at some common denominator in training or in team morale which makes teams not bond and managers not get taken seriously... But that makes no sense, either.
You can see why I usually stay in "Off Topic", can't you?
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After so many different managers it has to be something deeper and more fundamental.
When Doug Ellis finally let go of the reins, we then had a brief period of success. However it turned out to be an illusion built on spending way beyond our means. Ever since we have been in a downward spiral which still appears to show no signs of bottoming out.
Our club was run for decades with a hands on approach from the man at the top who would involve himself in every nook and cranny of the great institution that is Aston Villa Football Club. Doug Ellis became Aston Villa, and Aston Villa became Doug Ellis.
We used to moan about his `corner shop mentality`and John Gregory attempted to `drag him kicking and screaming into the 21st century.`
Well we are 17 years into the century and we have kicked and screamed our way pretty well back to where we were in November 1968 on the day that Sir Herbert arrived.
We would all surely love a hands on owner now who had us in the top league the majority of the time, an occasional distant hope of a title challenge, some League Cup wins, and forays into Europe.
These may seem like pro-Ellis comments and I guess in some ways they are. But what I am really saying is that our Club was run for so long as a dictatorship that it has left us still incapable of working out how to operate like most big clubs now do in the modern era.
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For me we need a manager who actually gets us. Step forward Dean Smith. He always our the club before his own ego and would truly feel honoured to be with us
He would be well advised to run a mile from the job.
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Alan Pardew is available. Might get us safe at least. Has always been respectful towards us.
Desperate times eh?
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Pardew No No No , same as Bruce fine when things are going ok, but when it goes wrong he has not got a clue how to turn it around.
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agreed, plus he's a hubristic knob head of Liam Gallagher type proportions.
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I quite like Pardew although I can understand why he's disliked. I was surprised when he got the push at Palace.
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one thing I do know is that they are massively over rewarded. If Lambert is being rehabilitated at the Dog head's, I very much doubt they are paying as much as we did for the privilege. Paying £2m plus a year to Rafa is a world away from doing so to have some of the charlatan's we've had sitting in the Manager's seat at BH
If we pay so well, why have we not attracted someone who can get a grip on things and make a difference?
Because we've taken the easy option every time, we are lazy. We plunder small clubs, whose career has been spent largely in the lower league and then wonder why they can't handle the pressure here.
Mcleish
Lambert
Bruce
Sherwood
Garde
have never really done fuck all in football management.
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Not that I want Bruce sacked yet but the next time we get a new manager he should only be given a 12 month rolling contract.
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I imagine there are Sunderland fan sites with pretty much the same sentiments. There seem to be certain clubs that are unmanageable irrespective of the manager.
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I imagine there are Sunderland fan sites with pretty much the same sentiments. There seem to be certain clubs that are unmanageable irrespective of the manager.
Some interesting points and compelling theories on this thread, but I think this last one probably sums it up. Over the last fifty years there's been brief moments when the stars have aligned and we've achieved - or even over-achieved - our potential, but for the most part it has been about making do, underachievement and, for most of this century, descending into a cesspit of the club's own making.
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Alan Pardew is available. Might get us safe at least. Has always been respectful towards us.
Desperate times eh?
Is the fundamental issue something about the choice of manager, though? Or is there something systemic about AVFC that prevents mediocre / run-of-the-mill managers from even making an impact? And which turns promising players into pub players?
I'm trying to get to the root cause of our travails, and manager-selection is perhaps only one factor in our long-term decline.
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We just appoint poor managers, Lambert isn't suudenly a good manager, the dogheads cant stand him, Sherwoods currently in some weird job at Swindon, McCleish and garde out of work??
The only way to stop threads like this is to flex our muscles and appoint a top manager, if we can throw £20m plus, including the contract, at the likes of McCormack then we have the financial resources to go out and get a top boss.
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It's pretty relative as far as I can tell. Most fans assume their club could and should be doing better. The other day I was talking to a colleague who is a Liverpool fan, and who was bitching about Klopp. His opinion was that if 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' were not Top Four at the end of the season he'd be given the flick. I had to try very hard not to laugh in his face. Or then there's the Arsenal fans who think that getting rid of Wenger is the solution rather than the lightning route to becoming bitter also-rans again.
But when all's said and done, Villa is my club and there is no sane reason why we aren't doing better with our budget, reputation and fan base. It's got nothing to do with curses and everything to do with mentality. The managers we get seem to treat the job as a custodian and not as a coach. They have little desire to create an identity with the way we play football. The last manager we had who didn't give a flying fuck about what had come before him was Martin O'Neill and we haven't had a man who was so convinced of his own ability since. You could argue Tim Sherwood did but as he didn't have the brains to back up the bullshit that's not a great comparison. We'll know we've found the right man when they stop going on about what a massive club this is and start talking about how big this club could be.
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It's pretty relative as far as I can tell. Most fans assume their club could and should be doing better. The other day I was talking to a colleague who is a Liverpool fan, and who was bitching about Klopp. His opinion was that if 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' were not Top Four at the end of the season he'd be given the flick. I had to try very hard not to laugh in his face. Or then there's the Arsenal fans who think that getting rid of Wenger is the solution rather than the lightning route to becoming bitter also-rans again.
But when all's said and done, Villa is my club and there is no sane reason why we aren't doing better with our budget, reputation and fan base. It's got nothing to do with curses and everything to do with mentality. The managers we get seem to treat the job as a custodian and not as a coach. They have little desire to create an identity with the way we play football. The last manager we had who didn't give a flying fuck about what had come before him was Martin O'Neill and we haven't had a man who was so convinced of his own ability since. You could argue Tim Sherwood did but as he didn't have the brains to back up the bullshit that's not a great comparison. We'll know we've found the right man when they stop going on about what a massive club this is and start talking about how big this club could be.
Great post, CO. By the way, what you describe above about the manager brought to mind the Cowley borthers and the eloquence and class with which they've conducted themselves since Saturday.
What else, over and above hiring a quality manager?
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Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?
We appear to be going through a period where nothing works as a unit - either the board is poor, or the manager, or both. It's happened before and ended up in Division Three. But since then we were lucky/good enough to chance upon a board and manager working coherently enough times to save us from a dire situation or give us something to cheer. Until now.
Since MON left, we haven't had the combination of right manager and right board. Houllier seems to be being rewritten as the man who would have taken us forward, but I couldn't see it then and can't now. It was unlikely to happen under post-O'Neill Lerner anyway. McLeish, Lambert and Sherwood weren't truly confident enough in their own abilities and the board was all over the shop. Garde was arguably the oddest appointment in our history and left to flounder. RDM and Bruce seem to be without a plan or not ballsy enough to just stick to their own course.
Villa is a big job - hardly anyone goes on to bigger or better things from here and it's usually the last major job of a career. Equally, most managers have a shelf life. I think football pundits sometimes forget Ferguson was an anomaly, not the norm. But successful managers have both a decent board behind them and a certainty in their own ability that goes beyond talking a good game and manifests itself in consistent decision making. I'd have thought Bruce would have that confidence but his actions suggest he is throwing the dice and hoping.
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Is Villa a managerial graveyard?
- if yes, why?
- if not, what has actually been going on over the last 6-7 years?
We have burned through a veritable Who's Who of managers since the petulant departure of MON. Bruce arrived with a good record at Hull and a reputation of being pragmatically effective. Lambert - having had a torrid time - once again seems to be recovering the lustre he developed at Colchester and Naarrich.
So, what is it about B6 that apparently puts the hex on managers?
No I don't think it is. We have appointed good(ish) managers but I think it the lack of support and vision from the owner and board and poor purchases in the transfer market that have hampered the development of the team. that has been made worse by too frequent managerial changes so they have to work with a team they necessarily wouldn't have built. Even our new owner personally appointed RDM (look at the Blues and their owners appointing Zola) on the basis of a EC win. His purchases and tactics were appalling and yeta agin we are trying to make good after the bad.
Give us some time with a manager and some stability and we'll come good again and be back in the big time but after years of being run down by Lerner we will have to take time to re-build!
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The successful Villa manager should never be thinking about where he can go from here, he should be thinking he'll be in the job until he retires. Lose the mentality of being a stepping-stone and we will improve.
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It's pretty relative as far as I can tell. Most fans assume their club could and should be doing better. The other day I was talking to a colleague who is a Liverpool fan, and who was bitching about Klopp. His opinion was that if 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' were not Top Four at the end of the season he'd be given the flick. I had to try very hard not to laugh in his face. Or then there's the Arsenal fans who think that getting rid of Wenger is the solution rather than the lightning route to becoming bitter also-rans again.
But when all's said and done, Villa is my club and there is no sane reason why we aren't doing better with our budget, reputation and fan base. It's got nothing to do with curses and everything to do with mentality. The managers we get seem to treat the job as a custodian and not as a coach. They have little desire to create an identity with the way we play football. The last manager we had who didn't give a flying fuck about what had come before him was Martin O'Neill and we haven't had a man who was so convinced of his own ability since. You could argue Tim Sherwood did but as he didn't have the brains to back up the bullshit that's not a great comparison. We'll know we've found the right man when they stop going on about what a massive club this is and start talking about how big this club could be.
Great post. Fans are never happy.
I remember driving back from out League Cup Final defeat to Man U (Seems decades ago now) and some supporter morning about us being 1 dimensional.
Fuck me, we're not even 0 dimensional now!
I'm also sick of massive club, sleeping giant etc.....
Why can't somebody who manages or plays step forward and grab this team by the bollocks?
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because they haven't got any to grab hold of, just shrivelled walnuts
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My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome. Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.
There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought. Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.
So it has become with us. We have become a managerial cash cow. Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans. Get rich. Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in. Look worried. Shuffle the deck. Get the sack. Get even richer. Ghost write My Villa Hell. Repeat.
We need a manager with a brain. We need above all an intelligent, thinking man. I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.
It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality. It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past. Negativity. The fear of losing.
A lot of what you've said is true, especially the safe pair of hands mentality.
However, while having a brain is always useful, I'd say that we need a manager with ambition, drive, personality, may be arrogance even.
The best managers always have something to prove and want to win something. When did we last have a manager who (with any credibility) was here to win trophies or achieve success that would improve their status in the footballing world - and possibly take them on to the next level?
Little?
Atkinson?
We've played it safe and had too many who're ok with with a mediocre career, treading water, having another payday or emulating 'success' at other clubs such as a mid table finish or avoiding relegation.
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My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome. Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.
There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought. Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.
So it has become with us. We have become a managerial cash cow. Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans. Get rich. Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in. Look worried. Shuffle the deck. Get the sack. Get even richer. Ghost write My Villa Hell. Repeat.
We need a manager with a brain. We need above all an intelligent, thinking man. I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.
It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality. It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past. Negativity. The fear of losing.
A lot of what you've said is true, especially the safe pair of hands mentality.
However, while having a brain is always useful, I'd say that we need a manager with ambition, drive, personality, may be arrogance even.
The best managers always have something to prove and want to win something. When did we last have a manager who (with any credibility) was here to win trophies or achieve success that would improve their status in the footballing world - and possibly take them on to the next level?
Little?
Atkinson?
We've played it safe and had too many who're ok with with a mediocre career, treading water, having another payday or emulating 'success' at other clubs such as a mid table finish or avoiding relegation.
Do you not think that Bruce has ambition? - after all, do a decent job with us and he might have had a shot at the England job: a great way for him personally to have finished his career.
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Not that I want Bruce sacked yet but the next time we get a new manager he should only be given a 12 month rolling contract.
I thought he was on a 12 month rolling contract
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Not that I want Bruce sacked yet but the next time we get a new manager he should only be given a 12 month rolling contract.
If he hasn't gone soon, it'll be too late and another relegation, if he hasn't got at least six points in the next three games
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My personal opinion is that it is the Eric Black syndrome. Looking out primarily to manage your career not the team.
There is scene in Moneyball when Billy Beane confronts Art, the team manager, about him not picking the players Beane had bought. Art replies that he is not picking the team to win games he is picking teams to justify himself at his next job interview.
So it has become with us. We have become a managerial cash cow. Rock up to Villa Park, spout the expected hyperbole about great club, great job, great history, great fans. Get rich. Go through some tired old routines, get your mates in. Look worried. Shuffle the deck. Get the sack. Get even richer. Ghost write My Villa Hell. Repeat.
We need a manager with a brain. We need above all an intelligent, thinking man. I though we had one in Remi Garde but what he had in intellect he more than lacked in backbone so he grabbed the money and ran , just like all the others.
It is the curse of A Safe Pair Of Hands mentality. It is a euphemistic cliché for living in the past. Negativity. The fear of losing.
A lot of what you've said is true, especially the safe pair of hands mentality.
However, while having a brain is always useful, I'd say that we need a manager with ambition, drive, personality, may be arrogance even.
The best managers always have something to prove and want to win something. When did we last have a manager who (with any credibility) was here to win trophies or achieve success that would improve their status in the footballing world - and possibly take them on to the next level?
Little?
Atkinson?
We've played it safe and had too many who're ok with with a mediocre career, treading water, having another payday or emulating 'success' at other clubs such as a mid table finish or avoiding relegation.
Do you not think that Bruce has ambition? - after all, do a decent job with us and he might have had a shot at the England job: a great way for him personally to have finished his career.
You've kind of summed it up already in your own words - 'do a decent job'.
Look I like him - he seems a decent honest type of bloke.
I would suggest (on both sides) - the expectation was for a horses for courses type of job - get us up and possibly re-establish ourselves in the division. He's not the sort who'd be knocking down the boardroom door demanding funding for players or else he's out of here to manage a top 6 team.
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We just appoint poor managers, Lambert isn't suudenly a good manager, the dogheads cant stand him, Sherwoods currently in some weird job at Swindon, McCleish and garde out of work??
The only way to stop threads like this is to flex our muscles and appoint a top manager, if we can throw £20m plus, including the contract, at the likes of McCormack then we have the financial resources to go out and get a top boss.
we pay way over the odds for the calibre of managers we appoint. I think I heard that McLeish was the 15th highest paid manager in the world when he was appointed. IN THE FUCKING WORLD
well, if Wenger is leaving the arse, I am sure he will get a gig at a major club. But why not offer him the chance to resurrect us. Probably a long shot but might just appeal to his egotistical side
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let's go the whole hog and tempt SAF back from the racecourse and endless rounds of prawn sandwiches
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Since Houllier, we have appointed average to below-average managers and bought average to below-average players. MON was successful, albeit within an illusionary bubble, because we bought top quality players. Players like this are driven, self-motivated and high achievers - even lower grade players will improve being around professionals like this. In addition, the weight of expectation at Villa will soon take a toll on those managers that are not equipped to handle the pressure. I see Bruce as an average manager at best, one that might be good enough at your typical Championship or smaller PL club but he is floundering at Villa.
As has already been said here, we need a manager who has been successful at a 'big' club or was a national team coach for a highly rated country, ie. not Bob Bradley. Obviously, we could get someone like Arsene Wenger and there is still no guarantee of success, but you have increased the probability of success enormously.
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It would be doing the world of racing a great service.
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there would be some top hair dryer moments in the dressing room , that's for sure.
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In relation to the OP, I'm surprised not more has been made of the apparently-sensible appointment of Wyness and Round and the little impact they appear to have made so far ...
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I imagine there are Sunderland fan sites with pretty much the same sentiments. There seem to be certain clubs that are unmanageable irrespective of the manager.
Some interesting points and compelling theories on this thread, but I think this last one probably sums it up. Over the last fifty years there's been brief moments when the stars have aligned and we've achieved - or even over-achieved - our potential, but for the most part it has been about making do, underachievement and, for most of this century, descending into a cesspit of the club's own making.
So why do so many managers collapse under the weight of the expectation where there doesnt actually seem to be that much, perhaps we have just made seven bad choices?
Or they were the right choices but at the wrong time.
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In relation to the OP, I'm surprised not more has been made of the apparently-sensible appointment of Wyness and Round and the little impact they appear to have made so far ...
Expect to see David Moyes roll up at Villa Park in the summer.
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And yet Southampton seem to loose their manager every season along with a raft of key players. Despite this they continue perform. There must be a reason.
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It just feels like it. They've only been back in the top flight four and a bit years. Pochettino was there 18 months, Koeman two years. Slipped a tad (nothing like Villa proportions of course) under Puel this season. Clearly better run than us in that time, but more stable too. In the same period we've gone Lambert, Sherwood, Garde, Di Matteo and Bruce plus the caretakers. The other difference is they've changed during an upward trajectory, losing managers they wanted to keep rather than scrabbling around at the arse end of the table for what they can get.
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And yet Southampton seem to loose their manager every season along with a raft of key players. Despite this they continue perform. There must be a reason.
Probably the same reason Swansea have done the same despite 18 managers in 17 years.
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Southampton and swansea created a clear vision of what they are and the direction in which they want to go, Bob bradley aside, all there managers have been selected on the principles they have put in place.
The difference with us is we have no fucking idea what we want to be hence why we jump from a manager with one style of play to another manager with the complete opposite style of play.
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Southampton and swansea created a clear vision of what they are and the direction in which they want to go, Bob bradley aside, all there managers have been selected on the principles they have put in place.
The difference with us is we have no fucking idea what we want to be hence why we jump from a manager with one style of play to another manager with the complete opposite style of play.
Exactly. They have a template they stick to it, the players know what is expected of them as do the incoming managers.
We have no ethos as a club just grabbing at a new policy every few seasons. Last summer was a perfect time to start with a blank sheet of paper set out what the club was and communicating that clearly. Instead we appear to have reverted our usual scatter gun approach with inevitable results.
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Southampton and swansea created a clear vision of what they are and the direction in which they want to go, Bob bradley aside, all there managers have been selected on the principles they have put in place.
The difference with us is we have no fucking idea what we want to be hence why we jump from a manager with one style of play to another manager with the complete opposite style of play.
I've got to disagree with that last part, 'our style of play' has been pretty consistent since MON arrived - shite. That more than anything is what's behind Villa Park being a manager's graveyard. Obviously there are differing levels of shite, we have hoof shite, dull shite, passing yourself to death in your own half shite, headless chicken shite, overpaid wasters shite and now plan? - what plan shite.
When I heard late last year Steve Round talking about trying to discover and implement the 'Aston Villa Way', my first thought was 'oh shite'. It would appear he's very good at his job and it didn't take him long to find it.
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
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For all the money spent on players recently I suspect we could have signed a top manager.
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For all the money spent on players recently I suspect we could have signed a top manager.
For all the money we've paid managers in compensation I'm sure we could have hired top managers.
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Why then did we go to the 1994 League Cup final as daytrippers and the one two years later like we owned the place?
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Why then did we go to the 1994 League Cup final as daytrippers and the one two years later like we owned the place?
Is it anything more complex than the first one everyone thought we'd lose, and the second one everyone thought we'd win?
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Or the difference between appearing in your first final in twelve years or the second in two seasons?
As it so happens, I always thought we'd win in 1994. A combination of knowing how BFR was the man for a one-off showpiece and the feeling that our name was on the Cup. I was more nervous two years later as I thought Howard Wilkinson had the wherewithal to bore his way to a 1-0 victory.
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Why then did we go to the 1994 League Cup final as daytrippers and the one two years later like we owned the place?
Might be because we were facing one of the best sides in Europe for the first one and Howard Wilkinson's plodders in second?
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Why then did we go to the 1994 League Cup final as daytrippers and the one two years later like we owned the place?
Might be because we were facing one of the best sides in Europe for the first one and Howard Wilkinson's plodders in second?
Or because when Little was in charge we were every bit as big time.
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I thought if we kept Gary McAllister after moving Houllier upstairs we wouldn't be in a mess. But we went to appoint Alex McLeish and co afterwards. We doesn't have a system, a playing style, or a vision or right people to make things happens.
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I thought if we kept Gary McAllister after moving Houllier upstairs we wouldn't be in a mess. But we went to appoint Alex McLeish and co afterwards. We doesn't have a system, a playing style, or a vision or right people to make things happens.
I don't think it would've mattered even if Houllier had been willing to move upstairs, the thing was the well had run dry. Maybe there was an odd chance that Houllier would've played a role in appointing an unknown but talented manager who could do good things on a budget, but alas we'll never know.
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Can we not get Brian Little in for the rest of the season and then seek a replacement in the summer.
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On the wing or down the middle ?
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I thought if we kept Gary McAllister after moving Houllier upstairs we wouldn't be in a mess. But we went to appoint Alex McLeish and co afterwards. We doesn't have a system, a playing style, or a vision or right people to make things happens.
One day I want to hear what happened then. The appointment of McLeish was SO beneath us as a club, so completely wrong and against our play style it has to rank as one of the strangest appointments ever. I cannot imagine the circumstances of that Board meeting when they said "Yup, thats our guy." and nobody questioned it. Bizarre.
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Can we not get Brian Little in for the rest of the season and then seek a replacement in the summer.
This would be cruel treatment of a Villa legend.
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I thought if we kept Gary McAllister after moving Houllier upstairs we wouldn't be in a mess. But we went to appoint Alex McLeish and co afterwards. We doesn't have a system, a playing style, or a vision or right people to make things happens.
i agree with others your post. I think we'd have been ok if we'd kept Mcallister.
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VP is becoming a graveyard full stop.
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VP is becoming a graveyard full stop.
Full of people too ready to start digging.
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the reason we have gone through so many managers is because none were good enough
they were all rubbish, there's not one you would want back (Houlier's health issues accepted)
you get a good one you keep him you keep getting bad ones you keep getting rid,
its nothing to do with anything else, the clubs toxic because of the players the crap managers have bought in
the right manager, I don't know who that is its all a bit of a lottery the same as when Southampton went for Poch or Bournmouth went for Howe they didn't know how they would turn out they threw the dice and it came up sevens
the right manager turns us right round within 6 months, the wrong one keeps on getting it wrong
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I thought if we kept Gary McAllister after moving Houllier upstairs we wouldn't be in a mess. But we went to appoint Alex McLeish and co afterwards. We doesn't have a system, a playing style, or a vision or right people to make things happens.
One day I want to hear what happened then. The appointment of McLeish was SO beneath us as a club, so completely wrong and against our play style it has to rank as one of the strangest appointments ever. I cannot imagine the circumstances of that Board meeting when they said "Yup, thats our guy." and nobody questioned it. Bizarre.
Yes, I agree that the McAllister decision-making process must have been bizarre. I remember at the end of the McAllister season when we beat Arse away and Liverpool at home in the final games. There was an air of forward momentum and optimism that was quashed with TSM's arrival in the summer.
Was that the point where we moved into the downward spiral that we are still in?
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Personally, I remember feeling only relief when we beat Arsenal rather than thinking it was the dawning of a new era.
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Could be wrong, but I can't remember a clamour for McAllister. His managerial record was poor - albeit at clubs slightly more appallingly run than we were on the way to becoming. Since then he's managed no games at all has he?
The strangest thing about McLeish was his appointment came after the alleged fan power induced cessation of our interest in McLaren. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/13793274) Regardless,what we needed in 2011 was a miracle worker who could rebuild a fragmented side while generating their own funds and reigniting the chairman's interest. It's also worth remembering that we'd got used to challenging for Europe, so needed a top boss rather than someone to build from Division Three a la Swansea, Southampton, Bournemouth and Leicester.
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Explain the drop from 2nd to 10th in the space of a year under BFR then. This was at a time when United and Blackburn were getting humiliated in Europe. Why didn't BFR look to change up an aging team much earlier like Little was forced to.
We were a much more consistent side under Little I thought until the signing of Collymore. The league itself was getting a lot stronger then too with Wenger coming in at Arsenal. I loved the football we played that time, I'm struggling to recall a limited technical player in his team.
I'm not a huge MON fan but it's the last time we had a decent team. Seem to remember us going on a long winning run away from home during one of his seasons. Barry, Young, Gabby, Carew etc , can't remember which season it was but we smashed in loads of goals. This was at a time when the league was at its strongest in 25 years, three teams in CL semis one of those years*
* hope I'm not getting years mixed up
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Houllier was and would have continued to turn us around had he not become ill. He was a top class manager
Couldn't disagree more, we were sleep walking to relegation until McAllister took over that season.
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well a slight exaggeration, but didn't we only sneak into 9th on the final day because of a favourable alignment of other results?
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Houllier was and would have continued to turn us around had he not become ill. He was a top class manager
Couldn't disagree more, we were sleep walking to relegation until McAllister took over that season.
Not really. We beat West Ham in the last minute and that more or less settled that.
McAllister somehow managed to conspire to lose away at 10 man Albion before we beat on the beach Arsenal and Liverpool.
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well a slight exaggeration, but didn't we only sneak into 9th on the final day because of a favourable alignment of other results?
We finished 9th based on our results over the course of the season.
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obviously but had results gone another way in the final minutes of the final games we could have ended up 14th or something.
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obviously but had results gone another way in the final minutes of the final games we could have ended up 14th or something.
You could say the same about every club at some point in every season, but for some reason 2010-11 was the only time when normal rules didn't apply.
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obviously but had results gone another way in the final minutes of the final games we could have ended up 14th or something.
If Aguero hadn't scored in the 90+4 minute Man CIty would have ended up runners up too when that happened
Football is all about fine margins as we know
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obviously but had results gone another way in the final minutes of the final games we could have ended up 14th or something.
And if results had gone differently the previous 37 games we could have been champions. You always finish where you deserve, that is the only cast iron certainty in the game.
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Explain the drop from 2nd to 10th in the space of a year under BFR then. This was at a time when United and Blackburn were getting humiliated in Europe. Why didn't BFR look to change up an aging team much earlier like Little was forced to.
We were a much more consistent side under Little I thought until the signing of Collymore. The league itself was getting a lot stronger then too with Wenger coming in at Arsenal. I loved the football we played that time, I'm struggling to recall a limited technical player in his team.
I'm not a huge MON fan but it's the last time we had a decent team. Seem to remember us going on a long winning run away from home during one of his seasons. Barry, Young, Gabby, Carew etc , can't remember which season it was but we smashed in loads of goals. This was at a time when the league was at its strongest in 25 years, three teams in CL semis one of those years*
* hope I'm not getting years mixed up
There were three English teams in the semis in 07/08 and 08/09. 07/08 was a great season, that's when we were banging the goals in for fun. 08/09 was the record away winning streak but soured by Moscow and the collapse. We got more points that season and went further in the FA Cup but I look back on 07/08 more fondly.
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
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Surely very good players + Crap Manager = Unorganised team, poor results, rot sets in
Average players + Experienced / tactically adept Manager = Organised team, hard to beat , will win decent % of games
Very good players + Experienced / tactically adept Manager = success around the corner
As other have said - spend the money on a Manager that you would on a half decent player
Newcastle and Brighton have both got experienced managers and a settled set up - too much change affects results - it is that simple
Did not want Bruce in the first place but we should stick with it (as long as he finds the right team) and see if there is any improvement - if not then close season is all about a Manager as we will have the nucleus of a good squad
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
For me the rot started when some moron thought TSM was the right choice - how anyone came to that conclusion created the catalyst of our demise as the new person in no matter how shit or inexperienced they were had to be better than the previous incumbent and on it rolled
Lambert was a breathe of fresh air after the dour shit of TSM
Sherwood - as above
Garde - considered more intelligent than gobby Sherwood
RDM - Considered more experienced in this division
Bruce - as RDM
next?
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Flashes only though nothing sustainable. BFR's fell away as fast as it rose...
Sorry, don't accept that at all.
BFR was the last manager we had who had us acting like a big club. And that was the case for the bulk of his four years. Little's team was attractive, but we were seen as next rung down the ladder from the big 3. MON got some good results against the top 4 and reasonable league positions (though dire football) but we often played like plucky minnows even away to fairly modest sides.
Explain the drop from 2nd to 10th in the space of a year under BFR then.
Might have had something to do with winning the League Cup. We were third that season into February. Having secured the cup (our first in 20 years) and European football in March , BFR decided to field sides made up of the likes of Beitkreutz, Beinlich and Yorke with one eye on next season. Finishing 4th or finishing 10th didn't matter a whole pile either way back then. This was pre 1999, when you couldn't get a CL place by failing to win the league.
I liked Little's team- and it was a team in the true sense of the word, with the sum being greater than the parts. His only major purchase pre Collywobbles that might have had other big clubs interested was Draper. The rest, Southgate, Taylor, Johnson, Charles, Wright etc looked decidedly mid ranking (or lower). Yet that lot, combined with an ability to get the best out talent he inherited such as Bosnich, Ehiogu and Yorke had us operating at the top end of the table and widely being seen as the best of the rest. We played decent football doing it, too.
BFR's side was different. There was no suggestion he would be content to be the best of the rest, happy to dish out the occasional nose bleed here and there, but ultimately disappearing when the business end of the season came around. We operated at the top end of the market, signing the likes of Staunton, Richardson, Atkinson, Houghton, Saunders and Townsend. Lo and behold, we ended up pushing for the title and winning things.
1991/92 it felt like we were on the move, 92/93 we were going or the title, 93/94 won the cup. 94/95 was a difficult start to the campaign, but most fair minded fans felt that BFR had earned the chance to at least try to turn things around. His relationship with Herbert was fractious at best, so it's not entirely surprising that he was thrown overboard at the first opportunity. For a manager who apparently offered nothing sustainable though, it's a bit odd that the likes of Bosnich, Staunton, Ehiogu and Townsend went on to form the backbone of the next good Villa side too.
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Loved the Atkinson side despite (or even because) it being at times filled with the most frustrating of players: Dalian's injuries, Saunders' ability to find the woodwork, the regular midfield stroll, Whittingham on the wing, Nii Lamptey... But in his last 26 games he won four and lost something like 16. His World Cup raid for Fashanu didn't help either. Was not happy when he went but soon got over it with Little in charge. No idea if he'd have turned it round, but his successor did so all told probably a good time to part company. What a great few years though.
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
For me the rot started when some moron thought TSM was the right choice - how anyone came to that conclusion created the catalyst of our demise as the new person in no matter how shit or inexperienced they were had to be better than the previous incumbent and on it rolled
Lambert was a breathe of fresh air after the dour shit of TSM
Sherwood - as above
Garde - considered more intelligent than gobby Sherwood
RDM - Considered more experienced in this division
Bruce - as RDM
next?
I suppose Lerner was allowed one iffy choice with Houllier - so you're right about the rot well and truly set in with McLeish.
It well and truly showed where Lerner's head was - no football knowledge, no business acumen, interest, pride, ambition or emotional connection with the club. Not great credentials for a 'custodian'.
Hopefully Xia's personal pride and vested interest in pleasing his masters will turn things round.
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
For me the rot started when some moron thought TSM was the right choice - how anyone came to that conclusion created the catalyst of our demise as the new person in no matter how shit or inexperienced they were had to be better than the previous incumbent and on it rolled
Lambert was a breathe of fresh air after the dour shit of TSM
Sherwood - as above
Garde - considered more intelligent than gobby Sherwood
RDM - Considered more experienced in this division
Bruce - as RDM
next?
I suppose Lerner was allowed one iffy choice with Houllier - so you're right about the rot well and truly set in with McLeish.
It well and truly showed where Lerner's head was - no football knowledge, no business acumen, interest, pride, ambition or emotional connection with the club. Not great credentials for a 'custodian'.
Hopefully Xia's personal pride and vested interest in pleasing his masters will turn things round.
it amazes me how so many people thought that Mcliesh was an horrific appointment yet think Bruce is the man
he's exactly the same,
same football, same sort of record, old fashioned, member of the British old boy network, negative let's not lose type tactics, both nice guys, good talkers in front of the camera, say the right things and honest enough individuals, they are carbon copies of each other a couple of book ends
and both massive mistakes for Aston Villa, Bruce being the biggest in my opinion
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
For me the rot started when some moron thought TSM was the right choice - how anyone came to that conclusion created the catalyst of our demise as the new person in no matter how shit or inexperienced they were had to be better than the previous incumbent and on it rolled
Lambert was a breathe of fresh air after the dour shit of TSM
Sherwood - as above
Garde - considered more intelligent than gobby Sherwood
RDM - Considered more experienced in this division
Bruce - as RDM
next?
I suppose Lerner was allowed one iffy choice with Houllier - so you're right about the rot well and truly set in with McLeish.
It well and truly showed where Lerner's head was - no football knowledge, no business acumen, interest, pride, ambition or emotional connection with the club. Not great credentials for a 'custodian'.
Hopefully Xia's personal pride and vested interest in pleasing his masters will turn things round.
it amazes me how so many people thought that Mcliesh was an horrific appointment yet think Bruce is the man
he's exactly the same,
same football, same sort of record, old fashioned, member of the British old boy network, negative let's not lose type tactics, both nice guys, good talkers in front of the camera, say the right things and honest enough individuals, they are carbon copies of each other a couple of book ends
and both massive mistakes for Aston Villa, Bruce being the biggest in my opinion
The 2 appointments are different though. McLeish came in when we could potentially attract some of Europe's finest managers and on the back of a season where we had been through the mill to change from a countering team to one that passes via the midfield. And all this was in the top flight.
The appointment of McLeish wouldn't have looked half as daft if we had been in this division at the time.
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
For me the rot started when some moron thought TSM was the right choice - how anyone came to that conclusion created the catalyst of our demise as the new person in no matter how shit or inexperienced they were had to be better than the previous incumbent and on it rolled
Lambert was a breathe of fresh air after the dour shit of TSM
Sherwood - as above
Garde - considered more intelligent than gobby Sherwood
RDM - Considered more experienced in this division
Bruce - as RDM
next?
I suppose Lerner was allowed one iffy choice with Houllier - so you're right about the rot well and truly set in with McLeish.
It well and truly showed where Lerner's head was - no football knowledge, no business acumen, interest, pride, ambition or emotional connection with the club. Not great credentials for a 'custodian'.
Hopefully Xia's personal pride and vested interest in pleasing his masters will turn things round.
it amazes me how so many people thought that Mcliesh was an horrific appointment yet think Bruce is the man
he's exactly the same,
same football, same sort of record, old fashioned, member of the British old boy network, negative let's not lose type tactics, both nice guys, good talkers in front of the camera, say the right things and honest enough individuals, they are carbon copies of each other a couple of book ends
and both massive mistakes for Aston Villa, Bruce being the biggest in my opinion
Villa gave McLeish a job after he relegated a club. Bruce came on the back of a promotion. I could never understand why we rewarded failure it seemed a lazy appointment but I can see why we gave SB the job, he has a good record in this division.
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I don't think anyone ever thought Bruce is the man. But he was accepted because he has a proven track record in the Championship. In fact if we hired Bruce when we were in the PL he'd have been almost as unpopular as TSM though where TSM edges it is that he was just freshly relegated.
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
When you look at that list it's no surprise that we're in a mess.
Lambert may have had potential - but was allowed to carry on for far too long.
Probably points to a combination of poor boardroom choices and the diminishing power of the Villa 'brand' to attract talent.
For me the rot started when some moron thought TSM was the right choice - how anyone came to that conclusion created the catalyst of our demise as the new person in no matter how shit or inexperienced they were had to be better than the previous incumbent and on it rolled
Lambert was a breathe of fresh air after the dour shit of TSM
Sherwood - as above
Garde - considered more intelligent than gobby Sherwood
RDM - Considered more experienced in this division
Bruce - as RDM
next?
I suppose Lerner was allowed one iffy choice with Houllier - so you're right about the rot well and truly set in with McLeish.
It well and truly showed where Lerner's head was - no football knowledge, no business acumen, interest, pride, ambition or emotional connection with the club. Not great credentials for a 'custodian'.
Hopefully Xia's personal pride and vested interest in pleasing his masters will turn things round.
it amazes me how so many people thought that Mcliesh was an horrific appointment yet think Bruce is the man
he's exactly the same,
same football, same sort of record, old fashioned, member of the British old boy network, negative let's not lose type tactics, both nice guys, good talkers in front of the camera, say the right things and honest enough individuals, they are carbon copies of each other a couple of book ends
and both massive mistakes for Aston Villa, Bruce being the biggest in my opinion
Villa gave McLeish a job after he relegated a club. Bruce came on the back of a promotion. I could never understand why we rewarded failure it seemed a lazy appointment but I can see why we gave SB the job, he has a good record in this division.
that's just timing though, everything else remains the same
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You could argue a case for Houllier despite his health issues, but the list of managers we've appointed over the last 7 years has been very underwhelming in terms of what they have achieved and proven success in the game:
Houllier
McLeish
Lambert
Sherwood
Garde
Di Matteo
Bruce
Is it any surprise we are where we are with such a clusterfuck of poor managerial appointments, all the other stuff going on behind the scenes and a revolving door of players. There has been no stability, no structure and no foundation for a successful club or team for years, and this needs to stop. We have a new owner that looks intent on rebuilding the structure behind the scenes, but we need to appoint a manager that has proven ability to set up a team and get results...we're a graveyard for crap managers.
of the list above the only ones I was happy with were Houlier and Garde,
Lambert and RDM I wasn't enthused about but was hoping they would be OK
Sherwood was a shock but he suprissed me how he so quickly turned the teams spirits round and got us playing probably the best football at times that we have done in the last 5 years or more, maybe with a older experienced head next to him instead of the fat twat Butch Wilkins he could have been more of a success
the other two should never have got anywhere near the job, absolute embarrassments the pair of them
however I have over the same time scale wanted to see Roberto Martinez, who I still like
I also remember plugging Owen Coyle once and Nigel Pearson last time round so I'm just as rubbish at picking the good ones out
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Agree 100% John. Saved me writing it.
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Timing is important, it's Bruce has shown recently that he can get teams up. Moreover, IMO Bruce is a much better manager in this div...hard to see that at moment! Who would you have chosen after RDM then John? Not having a go just For me Bruce was the right choice at the time...and it's still early days.
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
Shame he couldn't have taken a job behind the scenes, he would have built something special if Lerner was interested
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
Sorry, but would he bollocks have done.
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Houllier was and would have continued to turn us around had he not become ill. He was a top class manager
In about 2001.
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Houllier had no comprehension of the club and was far too detached to really work.
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Since Houllier, we have appointed average to below-average managers and bought average to below-average players. MON was successful, albeit within an illusionary bubble, because we bought top quality players. Players like this are driven, self-motivated and high achievers - even lower grade players will improve being around professionals like this. In addition, the weight of expectation at Villa will soon take a toll on those managers that are not equipped to handle the pressure. I see Bruce as an average manager at best, one that might be good enough at your typical Championship or smaller PL club but he is floundering at Villa.
As has already been said here, we need a manager who has been successful at a 'big' club or was a national team coach for a highly rated country, ie. not Bob Bradley. Obviously, we could get someone like Arsene Wenger and there is still no guarantee of success, but you have increased the probability of success enormously.
MON was more successful imo because he had a defined style of player and moulded the side to play to those strengths.
We had a transitional season of 06/07 to get things going and then the team had lift off the following season.
It's rare now to give the manager a free hit of a season as MON had that year. At least he kept us well away from relegation danger so never came under pressure.
Most managers we've had since either haven't had a style or tried to play one ill fitting to the squad. Houllier played a patient passing game that our squad at the time couldn't cope with, Lambert eventually settled on a counter attacking style that worked well for 6 months but failed to sign the players to keep it going once regulars like Weimann lost form.
McLeish had a style but it was such a terrible appointment and the football he served up just further dampened the mood on match day.
We need a manager who has a decent philosophy, Wagner has that at Huddersfield and he was given a free hit last season to shape the squad and now the results are happening.
My worry is even if SB rides out this storm the football isn't going to magically improve next season. This is how he plays so he needs to start digging out some results again like at the start.
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O'Neill had us struggling until February after that good start whereby we climbed into the safety of mid table.
He identified a lack of height and chiefly pace. We built that into the side and physically bullied others, played the percentages from set pieces and we're very well organised. The individually quality counted for a lot too.
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
Based on what?
Played 28
Won 8
Drawn 9
Lost 11
Win ratio 28.57
Dont let facts get in the way
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
Based on what?
Played 28
Won 8
Drawn 9
Lost 11
Win ratio 28.57
Dont let facts get in the way
Houllier had to content with an absolutely awful run of injuries and we often had 5 or 6 untried youngsters in the side at the same time.
When some players started to return and he got to spend some money in January, we began to improve. There were some pathetic performances and other embarrassments, like his fawning over Liverpool, but we were going in the right direction. It would have been interesting to see how he coped with losing Young and Downing though.
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O'Neill had us struggling until February after that good start whereby we climbed into the safety of mid table.
He identified a lack of height and chiefly pace. We built that into the side and physically bullied others, played the percentages from set pieces and we're very well organised. The individually quality counted for a lot too.
Yeah we had a long unbeaten run and then stopped winning and had our annual poor xmas/new year run. And March of course. We were never really in any danger of going down though.
That's the thing I don't get though....when people say they'll never go again if we appointed a manager like Pulis.
Yes he's long ball but then so was MON.
It might not have been as extreme as Pulisball but it was still cut from the same cloth...get the ball forward quickly to Gabby who's pace would win free kicks and corners and then the likes of Carew, Young and Laursen would do the rest.
We had the money to get the players who could execute those tactics pretty well given the long unbeaten runs we'd go on under him.
Sadly it's different days now....the club is I'm afraid like a terminally ill patient....we keep thinking it will get better and we try pretty much every treatment but nothing is working.
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Might have had something to do with winning the League Cup. We were third that season into February. Having secured the cup (our first in 20 years) and European football in March , BFR decided to field sides made up of the likes of Beitkreutz, Beinlich and Yorke with one eye on next season. Finishing 4th or finishing 10th didn't matter a whole pile either way back then. This was pre 1999, when you couldn't get a CL place by failing to win the league.
6th was the highest we were in Feb.
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Didnt he also have the brainwave of playing gabby as a winger?
We got him in years too late and surprisingly the man who had to leave liverpool for health reasons had to leave us for health reasons. Thats nothing against the bloke but just a typical villa lazy appointment
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Houllier was only really going to be a short term appointment due to his age, ill health etc.
I don't get the fawning over that this was some managerial genius and only heart trouble denied us glory under him.
To me I just saw it as a massive missed opportunity after the MON era.
Houllier's last good season at Liverpool was 01-02. We appointed him 8 seasons later when he was in semi retirement at the French FA.
Just to recap we'd finished 6th three times.
When you look at clubs like Southampton and West Ham and who they appoint as managers when they don't finish as high I'm surprised more Villa fans don't look back at that period as when things under Lerner started to decline even before McLeish turned up.
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I thought if we kept Gary McAllister after moving Houllier upstairs we wouldn't be in a mess. But we went to appoint Alex McLeish and co afterwards. We doesn't have a system, a playing style, or a vision or right people to make things happens.
One day I want to hear what happened then. The appointment of McLeish was SO beneath us as a club, so completely wrong and against our play style it has to rank as one of the strangest appointments ever. I cannot imagine the circumstances of that Board meeting when they said "Yup, thats our guy." and nobody questioned it. Bizarre.
He should never have been appointed once SHA went down.
I can only think (and said this in July 2011) that the board looked at the previous season when SHA finished 9th and thought he could keep us top 10 in the Lerner austerity years. And win a cup like he did there.
Anything else yeah I can't come up with a logical reason.
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
Based on what?
Played 28
Won 8
Drawn 9
Lost 11
Win ratio 28.57
Dont let facts get in the way
Things were on an upward curve towards the end of the season - even beating Arsenal away and Liverpool at home. This resulted in a 9th place finish which was excellent given all the turmoil beforehand. So your comment is somewhat misplaced.
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Houllier was the best. Shame he had health issues. Would've got us top six in my opinion.
Based on what?
Played 28
Won 8
Drawn 9
Lost 11
Win ratio 28.57
Dont let facts get in the way
Things were on an upward curve towards the end of the season - even beating Arsenal away and Liverpool at home. This resulted in a 9th place finish which was excellent given all the turmoil beforehand. So your comment is somewhat misplaced.
We finished 9th on 48 points and bolton in 14th had 46 so it wasnt some master stroke it was results that went our way on the last day, oh and mcalliser was in charge
Add to that the liverpool arse kissing, the chants of getting sacked in the morning after losing at home to sunderland and the daddy:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/aston-villa/8362600/Gerard-Houllier-says-sorry-to-Aston-Villa-supporters-for-FA-Cup-selection-fiasco.html
The bloke didnt get us at all and was a busted flush
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We finished 9th because after a 38 game league season we had the 9th best record in the division.
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We finished 9th because after a 38 game league season we had the 9th best record in the division.
Exactly. Some people can't recognise the bottom line.
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In following the club for 20 odd seasons I would say that season was the most flattering league position.
When we've finished near the bottom we've generally stunk the league out and deserved to be down there and when we finished 6th under MON we were one of the best teams (or most consistant in the league) and should've finished higher in two of those seasons if we had better squad management and a little bit more luck.
For most of 10/11 we were bottom half and indeed fighting relegation up to the middle of April. League was very condensed that year for some reason and we just timed a decent end of season run while others lost form.
Maybe what it did show is for all the issues of that season we still had a decent squad who could turn it on when they felt like it. More fool the club then for appointing McLeish and accelerating the decline.
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Bottom line is houllier was way past his best and it showed
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MON's " consistency " was surely the result of playing his favourites all the time.
You can't say we've had much of that since - certainly this season with 19 in and 19 out. Stability comes from consistency and that comes from playing the same team week-in and week-out surely?
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Bottom line is houllier was way past his best and it showed
Yes to save 4 futile hours of arguing about whether we deserved to finish 9th in a season or not, this.
Haulier was our managerial equivalent of Schmiechal, Ginola or Robbie Keane.
Good manager but way past his best. He was not going to build a dynasty here ffs.
If we'd got him just after he left Liverpool or Lyon then yes I'd have been more optimistic but he was drawing a pension from the FA which set alarm bells ringing for me.
No idea what we were smoking in August 2010.
What's worse if he'd turned us down...it would probably have been Curbishley.
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Bottom line is houllier was way past his best and it showed
Bottom line: 9th place finish. I'd take that finish now!
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9th from the bottom even sounds vaguely appealing..........
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Might have had something to do with winning the League Cup. We were third that season into February. Having secured the cup (our first in 20 years) and European football in March , BFR decided to field sides made up of the likes of Beitkreutz, Beinlich and Yorke with one eye on next season. Finishing 4th or finishing 10th didn't matter a whole pile either way back then. This was pre 1999, when you couldn't get a CL place by failing to win the league.
6th was the highest we were in Feb.
We beat Blackburn away to go 3rd under O'Neill. Durh, ignore me.
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There's a lot of revisionism going on with Houllier just because the season he was manager for some of the time (lest we forget the results before he arrived and after he was ill were better than when he was in charge) wasn't as godawful as what's followed. He was old, semi-retired, out of touch and as it turned out not physically capable of being the manager of an ambitious club competing for European football. It was a bad appointment. Just because what followed was worse doesn't make it better.
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There's a lot of revisionism going on with Houllier just because the season he was manager for some of the time (lest we forget the results before he arrived and after he was ill were better than when he was in charge) wasn't as godawful as what's followed. He was old, semi-retired, out of touch and as it turned out not physically capable of being the manager of an ambitious club competing for European football. It was a bad appointment. Just because what followed was worse doesn't make it better.
There's no revisionism - just plain fact. We finished ninth, and for the last time until now there seemed to be some plan emerging.
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Might have had something to do with winning the League Cup. We were third that season into February. Having secured the cup (our first in 20 years) and European football in March , BFR decided to field sides made up of the likes of Beitkreutz, Beinlich and Yorke with one eye on next season. Finishing 4th or finishing 10th didn't matter a whole pile either way back then. This was pre 1999, when you couldn't get a CL place by failing to win the league.
6th was the highest we were in Feb.
We beat Blackburn away to go 3rd under O'Neill. Durh, ignore me.
I think we were 3rd at the time of Moscow and Stoke fiasco and that was February?
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Not sure the results we better before he came in, we won 2 out of 7. Got slapped for 6 at Newcastle and dumped out the UEFA cup.
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Might have had something to do with winning the League Cup. We were third that season into February. Having secured the cup (our first in 20 years) and European football in March , BFR decided to field sides made up of the likes of Beitkreutz, Beinlich and Yorke with one eye on next season. Finishing 4th or finishing 10th didn't matter a whole pile either way back then. This was pre 1999, when you couldn't get a CL place by failing to win the league.
6th was the highest we were in Feb.
We beat Blackburn away to go 3rd under O'Neill. Durh, ignore me.
I think we were 3rd at the time of Moscow and Stoke fiasco and that was February?
We're talking about 1993/94.
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Bottom line is houllier was way past his best and it showed
Not sure he was but we have found one now collecting his pension from us.
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Might have had something to do with winning the League Cup. We were third that season into February. Having secured the cup (our first in 20 years) and European football in March , BFR decided to field sides made up of the likes of Beitkreutz, Beinlich and Yorke with one eye on next season. Finishing 4th or finishing 10th didn't matter a whole pile either way back then. This was pre 1999, when you couldn't get a CL place by failing to win the league.
6th was the highest we were in Feb.
We beat Blackburn away to go 3rd under O'Neill. Durh, ignore me.
I think we were 3rd at the time of Moscow and Stoke fiasco and that was February?
We're talking about 1993/94.
Oh ok I think I need to sleep😟
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Not sure the results we better before he came in, we won 2 out of 7. Got slapped for 6 at Newcastle and dumped out the UEFA cup.
You're right, I thought he came in after two wins from three and I must have obliterated Rapid 2- the nightmare returns from my mind.
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There's a lot of revisionism going on with Houllier just because the season he was manager for some of the time (lest we forget the results before he arrived and after he was ill were better than when he was in charge) wasn't as godawful as what's followed. He was old, semi-retired, out of touch and as it turned out not physically capable of being the manager of an ambitious club competing for European football. It was a bad appointment. Just because what followed was worse doesn't make it better.
There's no revisionism - just plain fact. We finished ninth, and for the last time until now there seemed to be some plan emerging.
I'm not really convinced he had a masterplan as such. I think he had the remnants of MON's successful team and was allowed to buy Darren Bent and he (and Gary McAllister) just about did OK with it. Was he a better mamager than McLeish? Undoubtedly. Was he a wtf appointment that didn't really work? Very much so.
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He undertook a revolution of our playing style in one season against a backdrop of his unprofessional defenders and Gabby in open revolt, massive injury issues and an owner losing interest. As others have said he made massive mistakes and didn't really get the club but he was one of the few managers we've had who was ruthless in his desire for us to play modern attractive passing football.
What I will always remember from that season is 30 minutes against Man United and with a patched up team and Hogg/Bannon in centre mid we ripped them apart and in typical Villa fashion ended up hanging on for a draw!!! I dared to dream at that point and ended up disappointed and thinking what might have been had we shoved him upstairs and bought in a decent 1st team coach.
Instead we got McLeish....make your own punchline.
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He undertook a revolution of our playing style in one season against a backdrop of his unprofessional defenders and Gabby in open revolt, massive injury issues and an owner losing interest. As others have said he made massive mistakes and didn't really get the club but he was one of the few managers we've had who was ruthless in his desire for us to play modern attractive passing football.
What I will always remember from that season is 30 minutes against Man United and with a patched up team and Hogg/Bannon in centre mid we ripped them apart and in typical Villa fashion ended up hanging on for a draw!!! I dared to dream at that point and ended up disappointed and thinking what might have been had we shoved him upstairs and bought in a decent 1st team coach.
Instead we got McLeish....make your own punchline.
Absolutely spot on
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I rated Houllier at the time and as Dave said, there did look to be the semblance of a plan in place and a steady improvement towards the end of the season. Who wouldn't take those two things right now? Some credit should go to McAllister for the fact we ended up finishing 9th, when really 16th looked on the cards at one point. I've said it a few times, but if Houllier's health had have held up, I'd have liked to have seen what he and Mcallister could have achieved with him as DOF and Mcallister as manager.
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He undertook a revolution of our playing style in one season against a backdrop of his unprofessional defenders and Gabby in open revolt, massive injury issues and an owner losing interest. As others have said he made massive mistakes and didn't really get the club but he was one of the few managers we've had who was ruthless in his desire for us to play modern attractive passing football.
What I will always remember from that season is 30 minutes against Man United and with a patched up team and Hogg/Bannon in centre mid we ripped them apart and in typical Villa fashion ended up hanging on for a draw!!! I dared to dream at that point and ended up disappointed and thinking what might have been had we shoved him upstairs and bought in a decent 1st team coach.
Instead we got McLeish....make your own punchline.
Cracking game that. Ashley was also superb that day. Then bloody Vidic had to ruin it
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The concern I had with Houllier's going-forward plan was mostly to do with whether there was enough money to complete the side. I mean, the players we were linked to in midfield were always very encouraging: we'd added Makoun in January, and apparently we were pretty close in on players like Gago and Cabaye - not exactly a physically imposing lot, but midfield players who'd experienced success at the top level and who could actually control the game with their passing and skill; but the defence was rather shambolic and needed an overhaul of its own, especially given the unprofessionalism of the two starting CBs. I don't think there was enough money to do all that, even accounting for Ashley's impending sale.
Also, my far-fetched theory was that Lerner gave up after that entire sequence where Houllier had to leave, and then we failed to get Martinez, in that he basically decided if we were going to go through the same nonsense again, at least do it on the cheap.
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Also, I seem to remember Bannan and Albrighton being excellent in that Man U game. I was up for the Houllier appointment, I thought had he stayed on he would have brought our club up to a better standard. He's the last serious manager we've had, and yes, the last time we seemed to have a semblance of a plan.
I think we could do with that now - a manager with broad enough shoulders to inspire players and fans.
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He undertook a revolution of our playing style in one season against a backdrop of his unprofessional defenders and Gabby in open revolt, massive injury issues and an owner losing interest. As others have said he made massive mistakes and didn't really get the club but he was one of the few managers we've had who was ruthless in his desire for us to play modern attractive passing football.
What I will always remember from that season is 30 minutes against Man United and with a patched up team and Hogg/Bannon in centre mid we ripped them apart and in typical Villa fashion ended up hanging on for a draw!!! I dared to dream at that point and ended up disappointed and thinking what might have been had we shoved him upstairs and bought in a decent 1st team coach.
Instead we got McLeish....make your own punchline.
The Man. United game was a really nice surprise and the nearest we've got to beating them at home since 2001 but what followed was a dismal xmas/new year period. We won 1 of our next 9 I think and then results picked up when we signed Bent which lifted morale.
However you only have to go to the post match threads archive search back for the 10/11 season and look after the game when we lost 1-0 at home to Wolves in March 2011 to see many on here weren't buying the Houllier fantasy football.
http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=42767.0
Much the same as it is today.
Also this idea being peddled that long term we would've prospered under him....his age and health meant he was never going to be here 4 years like MON was.
It's easy with hindsight but I really think we should've kept McDonald as caretaker until a decent manager became available that year. I look at clubs getting ambitious young European managers to the prem like Pochettino and Bilic to the prem and think surely a top 6 regular with plenty of England internationals could've been capable of that?
That's why I was so underwhelmed with Houllier. He would've worked better if he'd came in as a DOF with a younger head coach in charge. Ironically Remi Garde in those days might've worked in that scenario if he had started managing then. Rudi Garcia that season won the double with Lille so another we maybe could've tempted.
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And let's not forget some of that misbehaviour. The infamous swearing at Sid Cowans and associated fracas at a break at a Health Club, inferences of bullying of youth/reserve players with an alleged racist undertone, Gabby deciding to ruin his career by turning into a middleweight boxer, and there were numerous others, fatty Dunne & co moaning about training for one. I would never excuse Houllier for the Liverpool away game or his craven surrender at Citeh in the Cup but let's remember some of the shit our partly professional squad were providing.
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There's a lot of revisionism going on with Houllier just because the season he was manager for some of the time (lest we forget the results before he arrived and after he was ill were better than when he was in charge) wasn't as godawful as what's followed. He was old, semi-retired, out of touch and as it turned out not physically capable of being the manager of an ambitious club competing for European football. It was a bad appointment. Just because what followed was worse doesn't make it better.
I agree with this. For the majority of that season we were awful and we were in a relegation battle till we rallied towards the end of the season. I don't think Houllier had a plan at all other than other than increasing his pension pot.
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A bit harsh - I see it as foreshadowing what was to come years later with Garde - he tried to impose a different, more thoughtful and progressive style of play on a bunch of antediluvians who kicked, screamed and moaned, in remonstration. He tried to instil more enlightened coaching methods and they rebelled against that to - all this set against the toxic backdrop of Collins & Co.'s buffoonery and Gabby's 'I'm Mr Aston Villa, don't fuck with me shit'.
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He undertook a revolution of our playing style in one season against a backdrop of his unprofessional defenders and Gabby in open revolt, massive injury issues and an owner losing interest. As others have said he made massive mistakes and didn't really get the club but he was one of the few managers we've had who was ruthless in his desire for us to play modern attractive passing football.
What I will always remember from that season is 30 minutes against Man United and with a patched up team and Hogg/Bannon in centre mid we ripped them apart and in typical Villa fashion ended up hanging on for a draw!!! I dared to dream at that point and ended up disappointed and thinking what might have been had we shoved him upstairs and bought in a decent 1st team coach.
Instead we got McLeish....make your own punchline.
The Man. United game was a really nice surprise and the nearest we've got to beating them at home since 2001 but what followed was a dismal xmas/new year period. We won 1 of our next 9 I think and then results picked up when we signed Bent which lifted morale.
However you only have to go to the post match threads archive search back for the 10/11 season and look after the game when we lost 1-0 at home to Wolves in March 2011 to see many on here weren't buying the Houllier fantasy football.
http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=42767.0
True but as some whippersnapper so well pointed out at the end of the season.. ;)
If the back 5 had shown this level of commitment with last ditch blocks in the dark days of December and January instead of just these last two games, then we'd have finished 6th no problem this season.
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Ha I was actually going to put in one of my posts on this thread my abiding memory of seeing us win at Arsenal and Liverpool on the final day was wondering where the f**k that level of commitment had been for the previous 8 months of that season.
March 2011 was a very different world....the days of Owen Coyle being a decent and highly rated football manager for instance. I didn't post on that thread but I would've been with ozz and Tom Mc9 in wanting him as manager.
It's quite amusing seeing us all in rage after that Wolves game for what was at that point only a few months of bad premier league form and we still somehow finished in the top 10 that year.
No one could've foreseen the next 6 years.
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Ha I was actually going to put in one of my posts on this thread my abiding memory of seeing us win at Arsenal and Liverpool on the final day was wondering where the f**k that level of commitment had been for the previous 8 months of that season.
I have a feeling you may be posting similar come May. Watching us now it's like we're playing pre-season friendlies such is the level of commitment.
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Houllier was the season I cancelled my season ticket. Haven't had one since. Enough said.
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Houllier was the season I cancelled my season ticket. Haven't had one since. Enough said.
So you didn't enjoy finishing 9th? This was after a turbulent start after MON quit.
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We played about 5 good games that season so same as every season since.
As terrible as McLeish was, Young and Downing in his squad and he'd have finished a few places higher I'm sure.
We had good matchwinners in our squad in those days.