Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: jonzy85 on August 23, 2010, 12:24:09 PM
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Still trying to get my head around yesterday and I am trying to take a step back and recognise that it is only one defeat just like West Ham was just one win.
But...leaving aside the results of the past week, I am getting increasingly concerned at where the club is going.
To be honest I dont know what the solution is here. On the one hand I think we need a manager in asap, on the other we dont wnat ot rush out and get just anybody. This is the dilemma facing Randy.
My worry is that Randy doesnt know what to do either. Since MON left he has given us one bland statement and the General has given us several assurances that everything will be ok. I dont for one minute expect them to be disclosing every detail of the hunt for a new manager, but I just feel there is a lack of decisiveness amongst the people running the club.
I dont want to re-open a debate about MON and the timing of his decision to leave. Fact of the matter he is gone.
As soon as I heard the news, I got this feeling that something is very wrong at the club.
Whatever people's opinions of MON are, I think most people would acknowledge that for him to leave when he did meant that there was something fundamentally wrong at the club. We dont know all the details, but MON wouldnt ahve upped and left when he did over something minor.
I've had that feeling since MON left and the club has done absolutely nothing to temper it.
Randy is the bossman, so the buck stops with him. We can give out about MON's timing of departure, but Randy has to take responsibility for letting a situation develop where our manager felt his only option was to resign. Again, without the exact details we cant be too specific on that, but as it with any company the bossman has to take responsibility.
So in summary, am I the only one that is feeling a little disillusioned by the people running the club?
This is not a kneejerk reaction to yesterday's result, however maybe it has brought things into sharper focus.
Im not even sure what Im looking for Randy or the board to do or say, all I know is that what they have done/not done is not enough and I expect more from people who are in the position of running our club. I will say that I am beginning to wonder if we have the right people at the helm.
I hope my doubts are unfounded and I am proved wrong.
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Your concerns echo my own. We may never know the whole truth about why Martin left, but I think what happens next will tell a story. If we get a 'lesser' manager in, then it shows the way things are going are not driven for on the field success to the point where we can attract a top man. If we do get his calibre or better, then the business plan he'll be presented with must be good enough to make him think he can do something note worthy at the club.
I won't say Randy has done anything wrong to this point, but his next move may well be the making or breaking of him.
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I think we may also have undestimated just how dire West Ham were. They were woeful. Granted we played well, but perhaps the factor in their own awfulness was more of a factor than some, myself included, may have thought.
I do worry now for the next few games. It'd be nice if we could play Wigan and West Ham all season, the way they've looked, but playing like yesterday, we might get a few canings.
But I echo you're worries about Randy. First and foremost, he has a small team with him compared to many clubs. We have no director of football, which in some ways is good, but could be useful at a time like this. His knowledge of the game might have a factor in who becomes our next boss. The wrong decision as to the next appointment and it could be curtains. A couple more departures and we're not un-relegatable. Other big clubs have proven that in the past.
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Firstly
Randy has been the epitome of everything we had hoped for in an owner:
. Not hogged the limelight when things have gone good / bad
. Ensured that MON took the credit for all the good things - so stands to reason he has to take the flak when it started to go wrong
. Supported the manager with funds we could have only dreampt of before he arrived - 2nd highest spenders last year
.How many times has the General stated "In Martin we trust" i am sure they did not trust him to fuck us over with maximum effect so close to the start of the new season
secondly
. If Randy had a fault it was that he let MON have too much control in matters outside of the footballing side, ie wages, contracts etc
. To throw your rattle out at the first time the owner questions why you have bought some shit and then not play them smacks of a petulant child more than a seasoned manager.
. It is quite well documented that MON was openly touting himself for the Liverpool job - If you were Randy that had to hurt
. The fact that MON left and instantly the inner snctum of support functions ( assist mgr / coach / ftiness coach et al) all leave as well tells you something more than just a spat over money - and lets face it bigger and better managers in recent times have been told they have to sell to buy - why would MON be any different
Thirdly
. It is a huge decision who to bring in next - make a rash one and all the foundations MON and Randy have put in place could come crashing down - in any organisation change has to be for the right reasons (not just some keyboard warriors demanding it) and it has to be as smooth as possible. Everyone said that he would be tested on his next appointment so can we just let then get on with it - we can offer our opinions once the new man is in and had a few games to look and change things - up till then give the guy a break - he is no mug and knows what to do - let him get on with it
I think we need to have as much continuity for the players as possible and that i why i feel the right choice was Kev Mc and until such time as he is offered the role of replaced he has to have our support -and so does Randy.
To anyone who thinks he is not bothered go to the bank and take out half your life savings and throw it down the drain - then see if you are bothered. He has spent a phenominal amount of money since he has been here so i am bloody sure he wants to make the right choice for his investment
Leave the people who run the club alone until they make an appointment - whoever he is
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Is it not possible that MON knew that the board, like the fans, had doubts over his aility to take us any further and that they were loathe to give him transfer funds or the Milner money?
I reckon MON bombed out whilst his crediblity in the football world was still high enough to earn him another big contract elsewhere.
I can't knock the board for taking their time to appoint the right successor.
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Too much is read into Doh'Neill's departure.
He was given free rein for 4 seasons, accumulated wages that took up 85% of the turnover.
The one time Randy and co intervened and siad we need to look at the situation, he had a hissy fit and left.
I absolve Randy and Co totally from any problems we may be having, a new manager will soon get us back on an even keel.
Keep the faith
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This is a good feature Dave - I'm liking the new site.
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Sort it out, Randy.
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''Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. ''
This is a good feature Dave - I'm liking the new site.
You can turn that feature off if you want though.
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Nah! You take your time Randy, on the rebound and all that..........
I want another four year relationship not a shag against the climbing frame :o
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Just to point out I don't blame him for taking his time with the appointment - that's the right way to do it, IMO.
I think people are guilty of thnking they know all the facts and blaming Martin. Here's a scenario:-
Randy buys the club and invests heavily, as was needed to turn us from relegation candidates into CL hopefuls. However, he realises that the extra investment needed to finish the job is too much and not guaranteed to be successful, so wants to pull things back and run us in a more economic way. Martin sees this as meaning the likely sale of his top players and will stop him form finishing the job he's started, so from a footballing sense he finds that hugely frustrating and walks.
If that's anythign near the truth, then we're lookign at mid-table mediocrity in the near future.
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I think that is a bit of a red-herring about MON's whole team leaving with him. They came as a package and left as a package.
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Still trying to get my head around yesterday and I am trying to take a step back and recognise that it is only one defeat just like West Ham was just one win.
But...leaving aside the results of the past week, I am getting increasingly concerned at where the club is going.
To be honest I dont know what the solution is here. On the one hand I think we need a manager in asap, on the other we dont wnat ot rush out and get just anybody. This is the dilemma facing Randy.
My worry is that Randy doesnt know what to do either. Since MON left he has given us one bland statement and the General has given us several assurances that everything will be ok. I dont for one minute expect them to be disclosing every detail of the hunt for a new manager, but I just feel there is a lack of decisiveness amongst the people running the club.
I dont want to re-open a debate about MON and the timing of his decision to leave. Fact of the matter he is gone.
As soon as I heard the news, I got this feeling that something is very wrong at the club.
Whatever people's opinions of MON are, I think most people would acknowledge that for him to leave when he did meant that there was something fundamentally wrong at the club. We dont know all the details, but MON wouldnt ahve upped and left when he did over something minor.
I've had that feeling since MON left and the club has done absolutely nothing to temper it.
Randy is the bossman, so the buck stops with him. We can give out about MON's timing of departure, but Randy has to take responsibility for letting a situation develop where our manager felt his only option was to resign. Again, without the exact details we cant be too specific on that, but as it with any company the bossman has to take responsibility.
So in summary, am I the only one that is feeling a little disillusioned by the people running the club?
This is not a kneejerk reaction to yesterday's result, however maybe it has brought things into sharper focus.
Im not even sure what Im looking for Randy or the board to do or say, all I know is that what they have done/not done is not enough and I expect more from people who are in the position of running our club. I will say that I am beginning to wonder if we have the right people at the helm.
I hope my doubts are unfounded and I am proved wrong.
I dont believe there is anything wrong with our club despite the fact that MON left.
Reason? He has £20m + sitting on the bench or not even making the 18 and he is asking for more money??!!! I think Randy acted in the best interests of the club by refusing the petulant Norn Irishman any more funds for him to piss away.
Shorey
Harewood
Beye
Sidwell
Reo Coker
LYoung
Heskey
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I won't say Randy has done anything wrong to this point, but his next move may well be the making or breaking of him.
If you'd said that in May, I'd completely agree with you but Randy is having to find a replacement with both hands tied behind his back, such was the timing of O'Neill. Saying that, I still trust him to find a better manager.
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MON took us three steps orward and then one step back going onto two steps back just before he quit.
We have got to start again sadly
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Firstly
Randy has been the epitome of everything we had hoped for in an owner:
. Not hogged the limelight when things have gone good / bad
. Ensured that MON took the credit for all the good things - so stands to reason he has to take the flak when it started to go wrong
. Supported the manager with funds we could have only dreampt of before he arrived - 2nd highest spenders last year
.How many times has the General stated "In Martin we trust" i am sure they did not trust him to fuck us over with maximum effect so close to the start of the new season
secondly
. If Randy had a fault it was that he let MON have too much control in matters outside of the footballing side, ie wages, contracts etc
. To throw your rattle out at the first time the owner questions why you have bought some shit and then not play them smacks of a petulant child more than a seasoned manager.
. It is quite well documented that MON was openly touting himself for the Liverpool job - If you were Randy that had to hurt
. The fact that MON left and instantly the inner snctum of support functions ( assist mgr / coach / ftiness coach et al) all leave as well tells you something more than just a spat over money - and lets face it bigger and better managers in recent times have been told they have to sell to buy - why would MON be any different
Thirdly
. It is a huge decision who to bring in next - make a rash one and all the foundations MON and Randy have put in place could come crashing down - in any organisation change has to be for the right reasons (not just some keyboard warriors demanding it) and it has to be as smooth as possible. Everyone said that he would be tested on his next appointment so can we just let then get on with it - we can offer our opinions once the new man is in and had a few games to look and change things - up till then give the guy a break - he is no mug and knows what to do - let him get on with it
I think we need to have as much continuity for the players as possible and that i why i feel the right choice was Kev Mc and until such time as he is offered the role of replaced he has to have our support -and so does Randy.
To anyone who thinks he is not bothered go to the bank and take out half your life savings and throw it down the drain - then see if you are bothered. He has spent a phenominal amount of money since he has been here so i am bloody sure he wants to make the right choice for his investment
Leave the people who run the club alone until they make an appointment - whoever he is
This is the best post I have read in a long time - rational and thought through - stop it !! , what we are supposed to be doing apparantly is running round thinking the world is coming to an end. Having said that for some reason yesterdays defeat seems to hurt more today that yesterday , probably back to work and all the "banter" that you get at times like this.
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''Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. ''
This is a good feature Dave - I'm liking the new site.
You can turn that feature off if you want though.
I tried that but couldn't do it.
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Without quoting the whole post I agree with Ookysmiff. For four years we've had an owner we've boasted about to the world. One petulant strop and a bad result later, we're a "laughing stock" and Randy is "lining his pockets".
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My Norwich-supporting mate texted me this morning saying we should copy what they did after being tonked by Colchester on day one of last season and nick the manager of the team who did the tonking, before going on to win the title .. Think I'd rather Lambert than Hughton tho!
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Randy Lerner, if nothing else has earnt the right to find the most appropriate manager for Aston Villa in his own time. I'm sure he knows just as well as we do how important a decision this is, and it would have been driven home to him again over the weekend. If we rush now and get the wrong person, he'd get rightly criticised, and we'd be even further behind as a club. Remember, we want the new manager to make the right coaching and personnel moves, and the wrong person will bring in players that we'll end being stuck with for a few years. The right choice will minimize errors and be able to move the entire Villa process forward again.
Hookey makes some excellent points, and we need to keep the faith as Mark suggests.
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I trust randy to get the right man in but it is going to be hard to find someone with the season under way without paying big compensation money to clubs if we are going to get someone in who is with another club.
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Excellent post, Hookey.
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Randy's got to make the right choice but he's also got to act quickly. Another shocker against Everton and KM - a loyal Villa servant - will be getting the bird from the Holte, something he's done nothing to deserve.
Randy's done all the right things so far, but if he gets this one wrong or dithers too much, he'll soon realise that everything he's done to date will count for nowt
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Right to be honest with you the three results and performances since Kevin Mcdonald has taken change have not really made that much of an impression on if he should be our next full-time manager or not.
Looking at them;
West Ham Okay I expected us to win, but maybe not in such a easy fashion, yes it was a case of us great, but them equally as bad, however you have to take the positives from such a good opening day win [don't forget Wigan twelve months ago :-[]
Vienna was just what I expected, but the emergence of Albrighton over the course of that and the West Ham game is where the manager must take must credit
Yesterday was a disater, enough said, but lets up its a one off.
I think he needs two or three more matches to really know if he can handle the job. For me their shouldn't be any great rush to find a new manager. Macdonald seems to have the know how, and a cool head to hold the ship at least in the early stages of the season, and its not like we are going to be making great in roads into the transfer market.
For me it would be too much of gamble to give him the job full-time. And this and getting a good replacement is the key point of our season. No matter your views MON fact is under him we were almost certain to finish in the top six, and the moment you cannot say that for sure. This might well be a season of transtion.
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Randy's got to make the right choice but he's also got to act quickly. Another shocker against Everton and KM - a loyal Villa servant - will be getting the bird from the Holte, something he's done nothing to deserve.
Randy's done all the right things so far, but if he gets this one wrong or dithers too much, he'll soon realise that everything he's done to date will count for nowt
I don't think he will. I think everyone will recognise that we need a manager and this isn't a situation of his making, or his team. If we do lose against Everton, or have a shocker, and I think it'll be the first sign - and sound - of discord against randy. Nothing to serious but a nrevous induced cry for something to be done.
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I agree with Chico. MacDonald is clearly a very good coach, but I think that yesterday showed the difference between that and managing a team. Comparisons with Tony Barton are meaningless. Back then there wasn't a squad of over 20 players to try and shape into a team.
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I don't the newcastle of yesterday but we are starting to feel a bit like newcastle of a season or two back.
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I'm not concerned about o neill going- but I am concerned that 2 weeks later we have heard nothing about a new manager coming in and I have major doubts as to whether randy feels the club cannot break the top 4 and is now scaling back his investmest.
His lack of statements concerns me as did his comment when asked what was more important villa or browns- "well ya kno it's the browns", hardly makes me feel any more confident in him.
Yes , he's given it a real go and invested big in us, but maybe now the dream is over - if that is the case then I just hope he hands us onto someone who has the finance to really push this club onwards!
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I'm not concerned about o neill going- but I am concerned that 2 weeks later we have heard nothing about a new manager coming in and I have major doubts as to whether randy feels the club cannot break the top 4 and is now scaling back his investmest.
His lack of statements concerns me as did his comment when asked what was more important villa or browns- "well ya kno it's the browns", hardly makes me feel any more confident in him.
Yes , he's given it a real go and invested big in us, but maybe now the dream is over - if that is the case then I just hope he hands us onto someone who has the finance to really push this club onwards!
Of course. Multi-billionaires are hanging around everywhere waiting to take on football clubs.
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Don't see how someone can say than we are starting again. At present we are not a mid-table going on relgation side playing terrible football and being poorly run than we were four years ago. And despite the loss of a good manager, and a couple of key players, we still have a good defence [when all fit] with a brillant leader in Richard Dunne, a decent midfeld and some promising young plaers going forward.
So at the moment we are not in dire shape, but the next couple of months will decide if we can at least compete to stand still or maybe drop away.
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Without quoting the whole post I agree with Ookysmiff. For four years we've had an owner we've boasted about to the world. One petulant strop and a bad result later, we're a "laughing stock" and Randy is "lining his pockets".
Its amazing what a bad result and a poor performance will do,we had a good week up until yesterday,with a good few people saying Kevin Mac should be given a go at the job. Most people on here thought that it was a good idea for Randy not to jump in,especially if there isn't an obvious candidate around.
Apart from the young pups,most of the team should hold their heads in shame after yesterdays game,Randy cant be blamed for that.
Randy hasn't done much wrong so far,keep the faith,im sure he'll come up trumps.
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Losing 6-0 at a side that really are not that good is not a good portent. regardless of how, when, where, why.
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Firstly
Randy has been the epitome of everything we had hoped for in an owner:
. Not hogged the limelight when things have gone good / bad
. Ensured that MON took the credit for all the good things - so stands to reason he has to take the flak when it started to go wrong
. Supported the manager with funds we could have only dreampt of before he arrived - 2nd highest spenders last year
.How many times has the General stated "In Martin we trust" i am sure they did not trust him to fuck us over with maximum effect so close to the start of the new season
secondly
. If Randy had a fault it was that he let MON have too much control in matters outside of the footballing side, ie wages, contracts etc
. To throw your rattle out at the first time the owner questions why you have bought some shit and then not play them smacks of a petulant child more than a seasoned manager.
. It is quite well documented that MON was openly touting himself for the Liverpool job - If you were Randy that had to hurt
. The fact that MON left and instantly the inner snctum of support functions ( assist mgr / coach / ftiness coach et al) all leave as well tells you something more than just a spat over money - and lets face it bigger and better managers in recent times have been told they have to sell to buy - why would MON be any different
Thirdly
. It is a huge decision who to bring in next - make a rash one and all the foundations MON and Randy have put in place could come crashing down - in any organisation change has to be for the right reasons (not just some keyboard warriors demanding it) and it has to be as smooth as possible. Everyone said that he would be tested on his next appointment so can we just let then get on with it - we can offer our opinions once the new man is in and had a few games to look and change things - up till then give the guy a break - he is no mug and knows what to do - let him get on with it
I think we need to have as much continuity for the players as possible and that i why i feel the right choice was Kev Mc and until such time as he is offered the role of replaced he has to have our support -and so does Randy.
To anyone who thinks he is not bothered go to the bank and take out half your life savings and throw it down the drain - then see if you are bothered. He has spent a phenominal amount of money since he has been here so i am bloody sure he wants to make the right choice for his investment
Leave the people who run the club alone until they make an appointment - whoever he is
I dont entirely disagree with you, but the bit in bold is conjecture. We dont know exactly the circumstances and events that lead to MON leaving.
What I dont understand is why any difference in views on where the club is going were not sorted out in May. We all know that MON was meeting Randy to discuss the future.
I think we can be fairly certain that MON said he wanted to be able to try and sign x,y and z and would require money to do that.
Randy must have given some assurances that he would be able to. I dont understand why MON would not have just walked then if Randy said he couldnt.
Anyway we can speculate all we like, my main point is that for MON to leave it obviously meant that he believed that under Randy's current outlook on what he is willing to spend, we don't have a chance of getting into 4th.
I don't mean to sound unappreciative of Randy. He has done a fantastic job along with MON to get us to the position where we could make a genuine challenge on getting into the CL. Maybe the whole Man City thing has now changed the landscape compared to what it was when he first bought Villa. But this is his first real challenge as Villa's owner. I hope i'm completely wrong but I get the feeling he isn't dealing with it adequately. This wait and see approach with Kev Mac is not doing anybody any good. Hopefully, they are at present negotiating with the potential new man and my worries will be completely unfounded.
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Mac will get the Vienna and Everton games and if he beats Everton will still be a contender for the job, will just need to brush up on his tactics for away games.
i can't see any manager being appointed until the international break which is bad for any new signings but I think we have enough in the squad to work with until January.
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I'm not worried and I'm not writing off this season yet. We've had 2 games so far - one bad and one good. We've lost a manager and arguably our best player. This team needs a full time manager but I don't want us getting one for the sake of having one. Ireland will take a few games to get adjusted to our style. We still have injuries with Gabby, Cuellar, etc.
Now all that said and done, I can't believe we took a 6-0 thrashing to the Toons!
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4 years into the 5 year plan and I believe Man City have changed the game, so much so that Randy prob thought that there was no point having another year of large investment with the chances of a top 4 finish diminishing - I think O'neill prob felt that another year of investment was worth it and that champs league footy would cover the outlay. Easier for O'neill to gamble with Randy's money so having seen his chances of champs league qualifiaction effectively taken away, he walked.
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4 years into the 5 year plan and I believe Man City have changed the game, so much so that Randy prob thought that there was no point having another year of large investment with the chances of a top 4 finish diminishing - I think O'neill prob felt that another year of investment was worth it and that champs league footy would cover the outlay. Easier for O'neill to gamble with Randy's money so having seen his chances of champs league qualifiaction effectively taken away, he walked.
I think you are most likely dead right....but why wasnt this sorted in May??
Did MON think that Randy would cave and when he didnt he walked?
Did Randy think MON would stay without being given money and tried to call his bluff?
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I think you are most likely dead right....but why wasnt this sorted in May??
that's the big question - unless something changed between May and August. Maybe O'neill thought that he could get Millner to give us one more season, the same as he managed with Barry, and when it became obv that wasn't going to happen, and he also wasn't going to be able to replace him, it became too much for him.
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O'Neill really was special
Even when he walks out days before the seasons kick off and takes all his staff with him, he's not to blame for the confusion left behind.
To generate that much hyperbole amongst his admirers takes some doing.
RL knows what he's about, I think he has exactly what he wants, just the manner of achieving it took a slight hitch.
He'll have a new man in place when it suits him, and if it means we suffer a few poor results he won't bother too much because he's looking to the longer term, which can't be said for Marvellous Martin, who even when he shows 100% what a selfish little shit he can be is still adored by his 'boys'
Having read all the rhetoric about how good KM was and how he must be the new man,its strange how one poor result makes him nearly as poor a choice as Bradley.
What was it DOL said about some Villa fans ah yes fickle. Perhaps he had a point.
We no longer live in the days of Ellis, Randy Lerner is a complete different kettle of fish and its time some fans woke up to it.
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What was it DOL said about some Villa fans ah yes fickle. Perhaps he had a point.
The only thing Dolly ever did at this football club was leave us with this unfair tag. Time to give it a rest I reckon.
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What was it DOL said about some Villa fans ah yes fickle. Perhaps he had a point.
The only thing Dolly ever did at this football club was leave us with this unfair tag. Time to give it a rest I reckon.
6th was a good finish first season too, and he bought some decent players who Mon could never replace.
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What was it DOL said about some Villa fans ah yes fickle. Perhaps he had a point.
The only thing Dolly ever did at this football club was leave us with this unfair tag. Time to give it a rest I reckon.
6th was a good finish first season too, and he bought some decent players who Mon could never replace.
And when it all went to bits we expressed concerns and got called fickle, as if no other football fans are the same.
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Fickle, that makes me laugh,
what about the fans that went up to Newcastle on Sunday, and payed to watch that humiliation,
do you think they will go again, of coarse they will,
because they are not fickle,
what about a manager who walks away a few days away from a new season, Fickle, i'd say so
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Amazing how one word can trigger so many guilty responses.
How many of those who went to Newcastle were on here shouting loud for KM as manager and then demanding RL to act quickly
None I'd reckon.
As I said its time some fans woke up, RL will take his time and hopefully make the right decision.
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And in the mean time, the hardest working side in the league will rock up on Sunday and smash the fuck out of us to claim their first win while he procrastinates.
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This is a tagent, but a point that I think needs addressing.
The money in football is ridiculous, a point will come somewhere in the future when the banks say enough, the fans say enough and the power shifts away from the TV people, agents and players. I think Randy knows this.
I don't want to be a fan of a club that goes tits up because of it's own greed or imprudent spending. Maybe not immediately but this needs to be addressed, if shipping out the high wage big names and promoting the youth is the best way of getting this under control I'm all for it. I want success like any fan, but not at the cost of us falling down the khazi. This should be our long term plan, let the Man cities and Liverpools of the world crumble, and we'll be there waiting to reap the reward.
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Amazing how one word can trigger so many guilty responses.
How many of those who went to Newcastle were on here shouting loud for KM as manager and then demanding RL to act quickly
None I'd reckon.
As I said its time some fans woke up, RL will take his time and hopefully make the right decision.
Oh, give it a rest.
Mustn't feed the troll.
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One thing that I am happy about is KM interview after the game, he acknowledges he got it wrong and intends too correct it.
Randy has probably seen this and will maintain we must not rush, but get the beat man!
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Pity he didn't correct it at half time when it was as plain as the nose on his face that despite Barton et al being a load of horse shit, they were easily out muscling us and we couldn't win the ball back.
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And in the mean time, the hardest working side in the league will rock up on Sunday and smash the fuck out of us to claim their first win while he procrastinates.
bet they dont
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If anybody needs clarification on how the board feel about the current situation you should read the General's latest post. It is top drawer, and shows clearly how much they understand, care and clearly offended by anyone suggesting they don't. I find it astonishing that anyone would question Randy's motives or desire after what he has done in 4 years. Some people really do to that for granted. Look around at the other clubs. I can't think of a better owner than ours.
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I find it astonishing that anyone would question Randy's motives or desire after what he has done in 4 years.
Martin O'Neill did, seemingly. The same Martin O'Neill that you and many others supported indefatigably for those same 4 years.
Does the General's post make me more or less reassured that Randy won't appoint Kevin MacDonald or Bob Bradley? No.
We all appreciate him taking the time to post here because he doesn't have to but let's not go overboard. His latest post tells us more or less what all his other posts tell us about what is actually going on behind the scenes - i.e. very little.
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What was it DOL said about some Villa fans ah yes fickle. Perhaps he had a point.
The only thing Dolly ever did at this football club was leave us with this unfair tag. Time to give it a rest I reckon.
6th was a good finish first season too, and he bought some decent players who Mon could never replace.
Yeah, if only we still had the likes of Gavin McCann and Leonardshen.
What an idiot.
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I find it astonishing that anyone would question Randy's motives or desire after what he has done in 4 years.
Martin O'Neill did, seemingly. The same Martin O'Neill that you and many others supported indefatigably for those same 4 years.
Does the General's post make me more or less reassured that Randy won't appoint Kevin MacDonald or Bob Bradley? No.
We all appreciate him taking the time to post here because he doesn't have to but let's not go overboard. His latest post tells us more or less what all his other posts tell us about what is actually going on behind the scenes - i.e. very little.
See hilts, I didn't support him blindly at all. Maybe you can dig up some posts backing that up. What I will admit to is that I did back him for the most part because he did improve the club, and I wasn't going to criticise him or start one of numerous anti-MON threads for the sake of it which a number of people did even when it wasn't justified. It would be no different if I said you were one of those people who only criticized him. Both would be wrong. Don't make things up to suit your argument.
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See hilts, I didn't support him blindly at all. Maybe you can dig up some posts backing that up. What I will admit to is that I did back him for the most part because he did improve the club, and I wasn't going to criticise him or start one of numerous anti-MON threads for the sake of it which a number of people did even when it wasn't justified. It would be no different if I said you were one of those people who only criticized him. Both would be wrong. Don't make things up to suit your argument.
I didn't say "blindly"; I said "indefatigably". My point is that the man whose judgement you were foursquare behind - way more often than not - came to a view about the way Randy was running the club and resigned because of it.
So for you to say you find it "astonishing" that "anyone" would question Randy after 4 years is, frankly, astonishing. A man whose judgement up until very very recently you set so much store by did exactly that. That must tell you something is not quite right. Martin was wrong to leave in the way he did but I think we'd all agree that there was something substantial behind him doing it.
In any case the issue is not what Randy's motives and desire have been over the last four years but rather what they are for the next four.
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See hilts, I didn't support him blindly at all. Maybe you can dig up some posts backing that up. What I will admit to is that I did back him for the most part because he did improve the club, and I wasn't going to criticise him or start one of numerous anti-MON threads for the sake of it which a number of people did even when it wasn't justified. It would be no different if I said you were one of those people who only criticized him. Both would be wrong. Don't make things up to suit your argument.
I didn't say "blindly"; I said "indefatigably". My point is that the man whose judgement you were foursquare behind - way more often than not - came to a view about the way Randy was running the club and resigned because of it.
So for you to say you find it "astonishing" that "anyone" would question Randy after 4 years is, frankly, astonishing. A man whose judgement up until very very recently you set so much store by did exactly that. That must tell you something is not quite right. Martin was wrong to leave in the way he did but I think we'd all agree that there was something substantial behind him doing it.
In any case the issue is not what Randy's motives and desire have been over the last four years but rather what they are for the next four.
Do you actually know what "indefatigably" means? In this context it suggests that I defended him tirelessly and unflaggingly. Therefore in esssence showed blind faith. Something that is completely false. Like I said, bring up the facts.
The two situations don't have to be linked. Randy Lerner clearly stated that they no longer shared a common view, so why could I not have supported both when they DID share a common view? Or are you going to suggest that was not possible?
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If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably". The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently. So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.
Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy. Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy. And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said. I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.
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If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably". The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently. So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.
Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy. Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy. And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said. I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.
You are really are exhausting. If you're out to score points then find someone else because quite clearly instead debating the point that I am making you have turned this into my perspective on MON. I might as well do the same thing with to you and suggest that you indefatigably criticised him, and as such how could you possibly ever commend Randy Lerner because he defended MON too.
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You are really are exhausting. If you're out to score points then find someone else because quite clearly instead debating the point that I am making you have turned this into my perspective on MON. I might as well do the same thing with to you and suggest that you indefatigably criticised him, and as such how could you possibly ever commend Randy Lerner because he defended MON too.
This isn't about points-scoring. All I'm trying to do is understand why you find it astonishing for anyone to question Randy's motives and desire at a time when a manager, of whom you were very supportive, quit the club with precisely those motives and desire apparently central to his decision. I would have thought that would make you at least wonder what was going on, what Martin felt was intolerable, what direction we're now going in and so on. In other words, to question exactly what Randy's motives are now, and how much desire he has to take the club to the next level. But no, you believe that to question those things is astonishing.
For the last two years he was here I was convinced Martin was not the man to take us into the Champions League and I would have preferred to see a better manager appointed. Randy was presumably convinced that he did have the right man and stuck by him. I can see why he did but I didn't agree with it. So I wasn't sorry in footballing terms to see Martin leave because it gives us the opportunity - should we take it - to appoint a better manager. But the manner of his departure did make me wonder in what direction the club is going.
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Jesus, this is like a tennis match.
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Jesus, this is like a tennis match.
tedious, pointless and not very entertaining?
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Jesus, this is like a tennis match
Yep, it's ace
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New balls please!
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"Oh I say..."
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Jesus, this is like a tennis match.
Agreed lol
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Come on Tim.
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Still trying to get my head around yesterday and I am trying to take a step back and recognise that it is only one defeat just like West Ham was just one win.
But...leaving aside the results of the past week, I am getting increasingly concerned at where the club is going.
To be honest I dont know what the solution is here. On the one hand I think we need a manager in asap, on the other we dont wnat ot rush out and get just anybody. This is the dilemma facing Randy.
My worry is that Randy doesnt know what to do either. Since MON left he has given us one bland statement and the General has given us several assurances that everything will be ok. I dont for one minute expect them to be disclosing every detail of the hunt for a new manager, but I just feel there is a lack of decisiveness amongst the people running the club.
I dont want to re-open a debate about MON and the timing of his decision to leave. Fact of the matter he is gone.
As soon as I heard the news, I got this feeling that something is very wrong at the club.
Whatever people's opinions of MON are, I think most people would acknowledge that for him to leave when he did meant that there was something fundamentally wrong at the club. We dont know all the details, but MON wouldnt ahve upped and left when he did over something minor.
I've had that feeling since MON left and the club has done absolutely nothing to temper it.
Randy is the bossman, so the buck stops with him. We can give out about MON's timing of departure, but Randy has to take responsibility for letting a situation develop where our manager felt his only option was to resign. Again, without the exact details we cant be too specific on that, but as it with any company the bossman has to take responsibility.
So in summary, am I the only one that is feeling a little disillusioned by the people running the club?
This is not a kneejerk reaction to yesterday's result, however maybe it has brought things into sharper focus.
Im not even sure what Im looking for Randy or the board to do or say, all I know is that what they have done/not done is not enough and I expect more from people who are in the position of running our club. I will say that I am beginning to wonder if we have the right people at the helm.
I hope my doubts are unfounded and I am proved wrong.
Shit or get off the pot?
I think Randy has shit a couple of hundred million quid. MoN has spunked a few million quid.
Time to start getting value for money me thinks...
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Martin O'Neill left the way he did because he wished to inflict the maximum damage to Randy Lerner. I think the reasons for the stand off between them is blindingly clear. Randy wanted the wage bill down but there were no takers for the dead wood O'Neill had accumulated. Rather than hold his hand up to responsibilty for the purchase and wages costs of the likes of Davies, Beye, Sidwell, Heskey et al O'Neill threw a massive wobbly to confuse the issue and retain his position with his media arse lickers. It is rather like a wife being caught in bed with the lodger screaming blue murder about the mud the husband has trodden into the bedroom carpet.
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The title of this thread is a disgrace.
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Couldn't disagree with you Brian, even if I wanted to. Which I don't.
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I guess my point is that if ever there was a time to question Randy's motives and desire it is now - at a time when there is debate about how much money is available, how far the wage bill has to come down, what calibre of managerial apppointment we can achieve, what our medium- and long-term ambitions are and what was so bad about the whole situation that made a very popular (albeit not with me) manager feel he had to quit.
I think now is a highly appropriate time to be asking questions of the Board, and asking questions about Randy's motives and desire. I say that not because I have an axe to grind but simply because those are questions that should be asked. It may be that there are satisfactory or even encouraging answers to all of them.
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Please stop this abuse against Randy Lerner. He can't be here 100% of time when he got his other projects and Cleveland Browns and family to deal with.
He had put his money in, and doesn't have unlimited amount of money like Oil Tycoons.
We will have a better idea of what will happens when he appoints new manager and how much transfer kitty he will get.
Do you want Herbert Douglas Ellis back in charge.
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Martin O'Neill left the way he did because he wished to inflict the maximum damage to Randy Lerner. I think the reasons for the stand off between them is blindingly clear. Randy wanted the wage bill down but there were no takers for the dead wood O'Neill had accumulated. Rather than hold his hand up to responsibilty for the purchase and wages costs of the likes of Davies, Beye, Sidwell, Heskey et al O'Neill threw a massive wobbly to confuse the issue and retain his position with his media arse lickers. It is rather like a wife being caught in bed with the lodger screaming blue murder about the mud the husband has trodden into the bedroom carpet.
Far too black and white, Brian.
I don't believe that is was as coldly calculated as you suggest, but I can see why people want to make themselves feel better by believing it.
I'm also at a loss to how people absolve the owner and chairman from any responsibility for the wage bill. If we got ourselves into a situation where we were playing people too much then they are all culpable.
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I'm also at a loss to how people absolve the owner and chairman from any responsibility for the wage bill. If we got ourselves into a situation where we were playing people too much then they are all culpable.
I agree with you up to a point Chris, but in most organisations managers are given a budget, and are then judged on the results. For example, at work we gave the sales and marketing director permission to spend more on a Google Adwords campaign. We'll expect to see an uplift in sales leads as a result. If it doesn't happen, her saying "you agreed to let me spend the money" won't wash. Similarly, Randy allowed O'Neill to spend the money, but wasn't rewarded with value for money from at least half of O'Neill's signings.
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Martin O'Neill left the way he did because he wished to inflict the maximum damage to Randy Lerner. I think the reasons for the stand off between them is blindingly clear. Randy wanted the wage bill down but there were no takers for the dead wood O'Neill had accumulated. Rather than hold his hand up to responsibilty for the purchase and wages costs of the likes of Davies, Beye, Sidwell, Heskey et al O'Neill threw a massive wobbly to confuse the issue and retain his position with his media arse lickers. It is rather like a wife being caught in bed with the lodger screaming blue murder about the mud the husband has trodden into the bedroom carpet.
Far too black and white, Brian.
I don't believe that is was as coldly calculated as you suggest, but I can see why people want to make themselves feel better by believing it.
Why would anyone want to "make themselves feel better" and will a day ever go by without you making another sly little dig at anyone who disagrees with you?
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If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably". The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently. So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.
Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy. Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy. And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said. I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.
You should leave me out of this.
Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences. I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.
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At work I spend time investigating [for wont of a better word] allegations relating to disciplinary offences or poor performance. Inevitably, nine times out of ten, both parties have contributed to the situation to differing degrees. That doesn't mean an employee can justify poor performance because their line manager isn't perfect.
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One thing that Randy Lerner did succeed at was in getting O'Neill to resign instead of having to sack him. There must be some financial saving in that, even though I don't know the terms of O'Neill's contract.
I would also imagine that O'Neill, with his private family lounge just along from the Board Room, was a difficult manager to manage. Player power is one thing but Manager power is a totally different beast. Regardless of Lerner's business acumen and great wealth, O'Neill must have been hard to control for someone who had only been in the English game for such a relatively short period.
I suspect he will want someone far less secretive, less devious and someone who does not bear so much malice as his next appointment. Some of O'Neill's comments were akin to 'bugger the fans, I'm in charge'. That was always going to be an embarrassment for someone like Lerner who seems to want to improve the match day experience for the fans, at least off the pitch which was an area that he could control.
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If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably". The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently. So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.
Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy. Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy. And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said. I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.
You should leave me out of this.
Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences. I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.
If there's one person who deserves the description "gutless" right now, it is the manager who walked out on us five days before the start of the season - a point which he could scarcely have improved on in terms of "maximum damage" caused.
He's a calculating fucker, and i suspect that part of the reason he bailed when he did is because he knew it would leave us with an impossible job finding a decent manager in the time we have before the closing of the transfer window, thus preserving his legacy and casting him in the best light possible.
I can understand the way some media pundits have bought into the MON thing, but it is unedifying to see supporters of the club he has royally fucked in the arse - the consequences of which I fear we are only just starting to realise - still making up pathetic excuses for him.
Actually, whilst O'Neill is the one most deserving the term gutless, he's not the only one. The same term could be used for some of the people who have written unforgiveably poisonous nonsense - like the title of this thread for starters - about the man who, until two weeks ago, they were proclaiming the best owner in the league.
Gutless is one word. Ungrateful, petulant and - he's a corker for you - f1ckle are a few more.
I only hope we sort a decent manager and make something of this season, with the appropriate investment provided, as there are going to be a few people looking like prize idiots when we reflect back on this period.
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One thing that Randy Lerner did succeed at was in getting O'Neill to resign instead of having to sack him. There must be some financial saving in that, even though I don't know the terms of O'Neill's contract.
I would also imagine that O'Neill, with his private family lounge just along from the Board Room, was a difficult manager to manage. Player power is one thing but Manager power is a totally different beast. Regardless of Lerner's business acumen and great wealth, O'Neill must have been hard to control for someone who had only been in the English game for such a relatively short period.
I suspect he will want someone far less secretive, less devious and someone who does not bear so much malice as his next appointment. Some of O'Neill's comments were akin to 'bugger the fans, I'm in charge'. That was always going to be an embarrassment for someone like Lerner who seems to want to improve the match day experience for the fans, at least off the pitch which was an area that he could control.
All of MON's excenrticities could have been excused if he'd delivered as a Manager.
He wasn't around long enough to be judged properly, but I guess he did OK in his time here all in all.
I think the man's a total control freak and as such, didn't like having to ask for decsions to be rafitfied - in other words he wanted to TELL Randy what HE wanted and wanted a YES from him.
As soon as the YES's turned to MAYBE's and NO's, he flipped, drove off and has not set foot on anything AVFC since.
I had a busines partner like this until 2003 - you just can't see what's coming with this type of person and Randy certainly did not see this happening - I think he knew he had a temperamental Manager in MON, but accepted that as part of the package.
Randy strikes me as a very proud man who is proud to own AVFC, so on this basis alone he will get a good Manager in, but things need some time.....contracts / financials / agents/ agreeing the vision .... it's not a quick process.
I am backing Randy to deliver.
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At work I spend time investigating [for wont of a better word] allegations relating to disciplinary offences or poor performance. Inevitably, nine times out of ten, both parties have contributed to the situation to differing degrees. That doesn't mean an employee can justify poor performance because their line manager isn't perfect.
Interesting point Lizz. Yes, normally when employee is poor the Manager has contributed to some degree, and also performance suffers when the relationship between the 2 is poor......MON & RL ?
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He's a calculating fucker, and i suspect that part of the reason he bailed when he did is because he knew it would leave us with an impossible job finding a decent manager in the time we have before the closing of the transfer window, thus preserving his legacy and casting him in the best light possible.
That might be part of it Paulie.
I say might, as I'd like to believe he couldn't be that vindictive.
I'd say a bigger part of it was leaving when he did got exactly the type of responses and cover he wanted. "Well it must have been serious/ there must have been some backtracking/ broken promises from the board/ the board are no longer as ambitious as Martin," and so on. Job done, legacy protected.
I mentioned on another thread, but I reckon the reason things came to a head was probably more simple - the response of the players in training. It's the only thing that adequately explains the timing of it all. After the talks in March and May MON probably did want to see the thing through (Liverpool interest not withstanding).
But dealing with disgruntled players -either players he had fallen out with/ ostracised or those who no longer responded to his methods in pre season probably soured his mood.
Combine that with a frustration at not offloading some of the above and being able to bring in more players, and the fear of the battering his legacy might take if we did have a mediocre season on his watch and you get the events of two weeks ago.
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O'Neill didn't have to remain Villa manager under any circumstances, and he carefully set out his contracts with clubs to ensure he took stock annually. There's no doubting his ambition for Champions League and probably his frustration that Villa would need serious bucks year-on-year to even have a sniff, were clearly not going to be matched. We can only imagine - because we're sure not getting answers from any of the parties involved - that the Milner transfer cash was the tipping point. Timing? Not good, and neither would be quitting after the transfer window closed.
Sure, we have some dead wood, but one man's dead wood is another's must-have - the rather bizarre clamour for Reo Coker for instance, who is as one dimensional as they come. Ferguson and Benitez have signed some dreadful players for big money over the last 2-3 years; we moaned for years about our ultra thin squad, which desperately needed beefing up - the irony is, O'Neill got his squad, but only wanted to play the same XI. Owner sees money burning on the bench. I can live with Steve Sidwell spending 12 months in tracky bottoms, because there's no argument that Young, Milner, Cuellar, Dunne etc were great buys.
I don't blame Randy for giving up the chase, it's probably money down the pan the Premiership now, and money down the pan whoever takes charge. His safety first approach to grow the club is sensible and laudable, but we won't "kick on" - one criticism of O'Neill's limitations (despite 6th place and two Wembley appearances last season, never enough for some - substance but not enough style). What worries me is not the strategy, if it was properly explained and reasoned to the fans, it's that so little has come out of the club at all, apart from some rather childish sniping. On the face of it, creating the circumstances that led to O'Neill going isn't going to attract the likes of a Hiddink or Jol. The mid-ranking club will get a mid-ranking manager, or someone like Sven, looking for another well-paid bolt-hole for a year or two. It leaves us seem increasingly like fumbling over the new manager. It's a very big couple of weeks for him - and us.
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If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably". The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently. So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.
Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy. Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy. And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said. I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.
You should leave me out of this.
Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences. I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.
If there's one person who deserves the description "gutless" right now, it is the manager who walked out on us five days before the start of the season - a point which he could scarcely have improved on in terms of "maximum damage" caused.
He's a calculating fucker, and i suspect that part of the reason he bailed when he did is because he knew it would leave us with an impossible job finding a decent manager in the time we have before the closing of the transfer window, thus preserving his legacy and casting him in the best light possible.
I can understand the way some media pundits have bought into the MON thing, but it is unedifying to see supporters of the club he has royally fucked in the arse - the consequences of which I fear we are only just starting to realise - still making up pathetic excuses for him.
Actually, whilst O'Neill is the one most deserving the term gutless, he's not the only one. The same term could be used for some of the people who have written unforgiveably poisonous nonsense - like the title of this thread for starters - about the man who, until two weeks ago, they were proclaiming the best owner in the league.
Gutless is one word. Ungrateful, petulant and - he's a corker for you - f1ckle are a few more.
I only hope we sort a decent manager and make something of this season, with the appropriate investment provided, as there are going to be a few people looking like prize idiots when we reflect back on this period.
I'll make my own judgement on O'Neill's departure when I know more about the circumstances. It takes a peculiar mindset to arrive at your unsubstantiated conclusion that it was done to inflict maximum damage and to protect his media image but maybe the facts will bear your opinion out, maybe they won't.
As you know, my doubts about the direction the club are taking began on the first day of pre-season with the pelty/General Krulak posts that appeared to contradict the comments from Randy in May. I've asked what I believe are valid questions about our stated intent to compete for trophies and CL places. I'd love to think there may have been a method to this madness and in the background there is a project moving towards appointing a high quality manager and bringing in some players to strengthen the squad. Even if there isn't, it won't change my part in things. I'm a supporter, all I can do is support the club at the games and through the tills, that's all I ever do.
I agree with you about Hilts though ;)
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Reading some peoples comments about their perception of Randy Lerner's loss of interest and lack of ambition reminds me of a time back in the mid 90's when I was working as a construction cost consultant in the Far East. I was at a meeting with one of Thailand's leading property developers who was looking to construct an indoor sports complex that could be used for the Asian Games. He had brought in Australian architects to design the building and as with many schemes of its kind, it was way over budget and many around the table were saying this is what you have to pay for this type of building etc. The Thai developer listened to the cross talk between the people at the meeting and then said "People just expect me to bend over and s*** money out of my a*** so that they can spend it for me". At that point he said the meeting was over and walked out. The guy was a smart cookie and he knew the value of building this complex and how much he should spend on it.
I get the impression that many supporters think that Randy should do just the same (the first part, not walk out!).
Just because Randy is not going to burn money on a dream, it does not mean he does not have ambition and is not trying to achieve success.
Unlike the owners of Man City and Chelsea before them, Randy is caught up in the law of diminishing returns. He has invested a lot but cannot be expected to continue with the same level of investment when progression stalls. Investment in an asset will increase the value of the asset to a certain point. Not to say that you don't continue a lesser investment to maintain the value of the asset. It is time for Randy to take stock of the situation and look at another way of pushing on, that is not through major investment.
I have faith in the guy as he is no novice in being involved with major sports clubs. Top businessmen can run any business, providing they have the right advisors around them. Football is a top business, make no mistake about it.
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Few points. GK has stated that Randy and MON met on the Saturday and everything was fine, he walked in on Monday and resigned. What happened in between? Randy was in America, who else or what else could have upset MON that much that he would resign immediately?
The game against Newcastle was a debacle agreed but with key players still out it's not the time to panic.
People criticise McDonald bringing Keskey on, for once i don't. We were outmuscled all over the pitch the last thing we needed was to bring on another lightweight.
Liverpool looked second rate against City and will not make top four this year, it's all about money.
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Few points. GK has stated that Randy and MON met on the Saturday and everything was fine, he walked in on Monday and resigned. What happened in between?
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Saturday night: Made five phone calls.
Sunday: O'Neill got all his backroom staff together, told them he was going to leave and wanted them all to join him. Promises next job he gets they'll all go with him. Gives them 24 hours to decide.
Monday morning: Reads texts from the five. Hands in resignation. Leaves Randy and Villa in the shit. Pisses himself laughing.
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The title of this thread is a disgrace.
Pathetic, isn't it but no surprise.
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What was Pelty/General Krulak's post on the first day of pre-season? Must have missed it.
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The title of this thread is a disgrace.
It's a fucking affront, I agree.
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What i don't get about Hilts is that he spent months and months telling us that he wanted MON out of the door, and now he's gone, he wants to know why he's gone and what role Randy played?
You got what you wanted (other than Mourinho) so sit back and wait to see who we get next. It was your call
after all.
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I don’t have too many concerns about Randy’s commitment to the club and I think he is being sensible in trying to balance the wage bill against turnover. When Ellis was in charge many of us complained about his penny pinching and were often met with the retort “would you rather we did a Leeds?”. My response to that was always that there is a wide spectrum of financial policies to adopt between chronic under investment and Ridsdale’s shit or bust tactics. What I think Randy is trying to do is walk that line between those two extremes.
Unfortunately I think giving O’Neill carte blanche to agree wages was a major error and had the potential to start taking us down Ridsdale Road if not addressed. The sad thing is that there was a major opportunity to really push on over the last four years with the investment put in, and while O’Neill did okay with it up to a point, I think he could and should have done better. For me too much of the money, and perhaps the golden opportunity to establish ourselves as one of the big guns, has been wasted.
It doesn’t mean we have to return to Dougonomics, but I do question whether we will have the necessary funding to challenge at the very top end.
One doubt I’ve always had about Randy though is that his running of the Browns has, by all accounts, been anything but a runaway success.
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It takes a peculiar mindset to arrive at your unsubstantiated conclusion that it was done to inflict maximum damage and to protect his media image but maybe the facts will bear your opinion out, maybe they won't.
So the fact that he has form in doing this previously doesn't come into it at all with you, no?
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You should leave me out of this.
Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences. I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.
As you well know, what I wanted was a better manager. I said many times that if Martin was to be replaced by someone like Hughes or Curbishley - i.e. someone who was no better - then we should stick with what we had. Personally I think we can do better than that, which is why I think appointing Kevin MacDonald or Bob Bradley would be a serious mistake and would lead me to question, as you are, where exactly we're going. Equally, the manner of Martin's departure - whether it was something I wanted or not - means questions have to be asked about what's been going on behind the scenes.
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It takes a peculiar mindset to arrive at your unsubstantiated conclusion that it was done to inflict maximum damage and to protect his media image but maybe the facts will bear your opinion out, maybe they won't.
So the fact that he has form in doing this previously doesn't come into it at all with you, no?
Sorry, but what 'form' does he have for walking out on a club shortly before the start of a season?
To me their are two schools of thought on this:-
1. That he's the most evil bastard ever to manage us and has hatched a plot to fuck us over as much as possible.
2. That we don't know the full reasons behind what happened and we'd like to know them.
Pick which ever one you want, but for some reason number 2 does seem to have a slightly more rational approach behind it!
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I'll make my own judgement on O'Neill's departure when I know more about the circumstances. It takes a peculiar mindset to arrive at your unsubstantiated conclusion that it was done to inflict maximum damage and to protect his media image but maybe the facts will bear your opinion out, maybe they won't.
There is, however, one thing which is a fact - he walked out on us five days before the start of the season.
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Sorry, but what 'form' does he have for walking out on a club shortly before the start of a season?
Not at the start of the season, but he quit the Norwich job the morning of a game because of differences with the chairman.
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There is, however, one thing which is a fact - he walked out on us five days before the start of the season.
Yes, he did. But was that because he refused to work under some reasonable limitations and spat his dummy or he was asked to work under ridiculous restrictions that undermined what he had spent 4 years building and found his position untennable?
I think what Randy does next will go a long way to telling us the answer to that!
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The title of this thread is a disgrace.
Pathetic, isn't it but no surprise.
Hold on a second...the title is a question I was putting out there.
Judging from the replies, it seems a valid enough one, as there are many varying opinions.
In no way is it meant as an attack on Randy. If Randy has decided to stop spending, I would still thank him for all he has done and understand why he doesnt want to throw more money away. Man City werent there when he first arrived and they have completely changed the landscape. I would completely understand if Randy had decided, enough is enough.
However, having acknowledged all that Randy has done for us, I dont think that means he is beyond questioning.
Questioning is all it is.
As I said previously, I hope I am completely wrong to be asking questions, but I can't help feeling a little worried and clearly I'm not the only one.
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I don't see how anyone can defend MON, walking out on us like he did. History, like with Saunders, may be kinder to him. All we need to do is go on and win the league and european cup with this team.
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I don't see how anyone can defend MON, walking out on us like he did. History, like with Saunders, may be kinder to him. All we need to do is go on and win the league and european cup with this team.
Yep - would also be nice if O'Neill managed to get Blues and Albion relegated in the same season, just like Saunders did. Then I might forgive him a bit
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I don't see how anyone can defend MON, walking out on us like he did. History, like with Saunders, may be kinder to him. All we need to do is go on and win the league and european cup with this team.
He's a knob of the highest order for doing the deed, but that doesn't instantly make the part the board have played in it all above criticism.
There are still many questions unanswered.
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Fair enough, Jonzy. As with any crisis, and let's face it our manager walking out with all the backroom staff 5 days before the season starts, is a crisis, we need to keep our heads and not panic. A quick fix could easily see us go into free fall. WE need to get the right man, not just for this month or season but hopefully for the medium, long term future.
Whilst never a fan of MON's football, I never paniced with his transfer timings. It was frustrating, like now but it's all about getting the right people in.
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You should leave me out of this.
Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences. I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.
As you well know, what I wanted was a better manager. I said many times that if Martin was to be replaced by someone like Hughes or Curbishley - i.e. someone who was no better - then we should stick with what we had. Personally I think we can do better than that, which is why I think appointing Kevin MacDonald or Bob Bradley would be a serious mistake and would lead me to question, as you are, where exactly we're going. Equally, the manner of Martin's departure - whether it was something I wanted or not - means questions have to be asked about what's been going on behind the scenes.
i to wanted MON out, but also realised that it was a massive game of stick or twist,
many posters said they would rather stick, because they thought MON was the best we could get, thats fair enough.
posters like you and i were prepared to gamble, and said twist, there was no guarantees who the next manager was going to be, we dont live in a ideal reality world,
we might end up with the queen of hearts when we wanted the 5 of clubs, but hey thats the gamble.
i am still glad MON went, even after sundays humiliation, i still have more trust in Randy than i had in MON,
but i'm under no ilusions that it was a gamble wanting MON out, and you were one of his major critics, you dont get everything your own way in life,
we might have to grin and bear it.
but to keep on moaning and critizing after getting your wish is just the hight of hypocrocy,
just have to give it time to see how things work out
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The problem I have Jonzy, is not the question but the title. Which is in my opinion, a disgrace and it doesn't do you any credit.
Time for Randy to shit or get off the potty? Couldn't you have phrased it with a wee bit more respect?
Especially as he has "shit" an absolute fortune on this club already. Never mind all the other stuff he's done in and around the club.
Sorry, I'm not having a go but its all part of the vulgarity that's pissing me off in football. All money money money. Its time to get somebody richer so we can compete with all the other lunacy? No thanks. I'd rather have the right man than the richest. Not that I think Randy has stopped or will in anyway stop financially investing in the club.
Personally I would rather stick with him than get somebody ten times richer who may not have the club in his heart as Randy clearly does.
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Yes, he did. But was that because he refused to work under some reasonable limitations and spat his dummy or he was asked to work under ridiculous restrictions that undermined what he had spent 4 years building and found his position untennable?
2. That we don't know the full reasons behind what happened and we'd like to know them.
So which is it? You know why Mon quit or we don't know the reasons?
General K said, Randy spoke to Mon and happy in the knowledge all was well he flew back to the US. As he did Mon ran off.
Wrap it up whichever way you want he left us in the shit and looked after number 1 first, disgraceful.
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Personally I would rather stick with him than get somebody ten times richer who may not have the club in his heart as Randy clearly does.
I believe in what RL has done and is doing because he's not given me any reason to doubt him seriously, unlike our last manager.
But I also believe if it suited his circumstances he'd hand over the club to someone else along with plenty of the right excuses.
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Yes, he did. But was that because he refused to work under some reasonable limitations and spat his dummy or he was asked to work under ridiculous restrictions that undermined what he had spent 4 years building and found his position untennable?
2. That we don't know the full reasons behind what happened and we'd like to know them.
So which is it? You know why Mon quit or we don't know the reasons?
OK, which part of the question mark on the first post you quoted didn't you understand?
To make it simple for you - I was offering two alternative scenarios and asking which is right, which ties into the 2nd post where I say we don't yet know the reasons behind what happened.
Except for you, who has put aside your previous dislike for the previous manager and from the vague statements relaeased drawn the logical conclusion that Martin is possessed by the disembodied spirit of Steve Hodge and has a master plan to destroy the club.
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Personally, I dissociate the two issues: the appalling timing of MON's leaving that he alone is responsible for, and the air of executive level confusion at VP. These are not contradictory viewpoints, as a number of posters seem to be suggesting.
MON's departure is water under the bridge. However, what continues to be an issue is the lack of executive decisiveness. This issue has been with us for a while and is reflected in the numerous changes of executive management structure during the RL tenure. While we had a strong manager, we were able to hide the problem to a degree, but in the current context it is a real achilles' heel. Perhaps it is simply the case that the Board is doing things "the right way", "behind closed doors" and not airing our problems in public, etc. But an alternative reading would be that we just had no plan B – despite being aware of MON's volatility. As time goes on, I am increasingly persuaded that it is the latter, which begs the question of why were we not better prepared?
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Still trying to get my head around yesterday and I am trying to take a step back and recognise that it is only one defeat just like West Ham was just one win.
But...leaving aside the results of the past week, I am getting increasingly concerned at where the club is going.
To be honest I dont know what the solution is here. On the one hand I think we need a manager in asap, on the other we dont wnat ot rush out and get just anybody. This is the dilemma facing Randy.
My worry is that Randy doesnt know what to do either. Since MON left he has given us one bland statement and the General has given us several assurances that everything will be ok. I dont for one minute expect them to be disclosing every detail of the hunt for a new manager, but I just feel there is a lack of decisiveness amongst the people running the club.
I dont want to re-open a debate about MON and the timing of his decision to leave. Fact of the matter he is gone.
As soon as I heard the news, I got this feeling that something is very wrong at the club.
Whatever people's opinions of MON are, I think most people would acknowledge that for him to leave when he did meant that there was something fundamentally wrong at the club. We dont know all the details, but MON wouldnt ahve upped and left when he did over something minor.
I've had that feeling since MON left and the club has done absolutely nothing to temper it.
Randy is the bossman, so the buck stops with him. We can give out about MON's timing of departure, but Randy has to take responsibility for letting a situation develop where our manager felt his only option was to resign. Again, without the exact details we cant be too specific on that, but as it with any company the bossman has to take responsibility.
So in summary, am I the only one that is feeling a little disillusioned by the people running the club?
This is not a kneejerk reaction to yesterday's result, however maybe it has brought things into sharper focus.
Im not even sure what Im looking for Randy or the board to do or say, all I know is that what they have done/not done is not enough and I expect more from people who are in the position of running our club. I will say that I am beginning to wonder if we have the right people at the helm.
I hope my doubts are unfounded and I am proved wrong.
Right people are the helm?
They dont have as much money as City, what would you like them to do?
We are a well run club, nothing like Liverpool or Pompey for example.
We cannot compete with Man City however, upset people get its not going to happen.
We have to do it the hard way.
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Does troll-food come in snack-packs, John or did you buy the family-sized box?
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Does troll-food come in snack-packs, John or did you buy the family-sized box?
I won a lifetime supply in the 'draw what you think gregnash looks like' competition.
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Ooh, fuck me, I'd wish I'd seen that!
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Thing is Randy has done very little wrong thus far so it is very difficult for even those who were in support of the then manager to criticse Randy for any part in O'Neill leaving. of course it must have been 6 of one, or probably more likely to be seven of one 5 of the other.
If it were Ellis it would have been him that would have caused outrage at being such a tyrant, or an idiot, that he forced a manager into a position that meant he could do no more than resign in exasperation.
Its all about perception and its a sign of how much we still have a love-in with Randy, and that we b and large support him fully that the fall out of all this is anti-O'Neill. Maybe his silence - O'Neill's - is a lot to do with his, and maybe even the media's, total surprise of the mood of the Villa fans and the fact that there has not been even the remotest howl of derision towards the board, and outrage, behind O'Neill leaving us.
Lost 6-0 and its still more or less a polite - 'We love you but sort it ouit please'.
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The problem I have Jonzy, is not the question but the title. Which is in my opinion, a disgrace and it doesn't do you any credit.
Time for Randy to shit or get off the potty? Couldn't you have phrased it with a wee bit more respect?
Especially as he has "shit" an absolute fortune on this club already. Never mind all the other stuff he's done in and around the club.
Sorry, I'm not having a go but its all part of the vulgarity that's pissing me off in football. All money money money. Its time to get somebody richer so we can compete with all the other lunacy? No thanks. I'd rather have the right man than the richest. Not that I think Randy has stopped or will in anyway stop financially investing in the club.
Personally I would rather stick with him than get somebody ten times richer who may not have the club in his heart as Randy clearly does.
Apologies if you took any offence with the title. Didn't mean any disrespect to Randy or the club, just a turn of phrase.
FWIW, I have read plenty more vulgar comments on this forum, but again I apologise if you took offence.
I agree entirely about your comments re the vulgarity in football.
It's part of the reason that for the first time in my life I greeted the new season with a lot of indifference.
We know, eventually, Man City will buy the League and that Chelsea and Man Utd's past spending will keep them up there for the time being.
With regard to Villa and this mess were in...I'm still trying to get my head around it and how it has come to this.
Obviously, we dont know all the facts, but because Randy is the man in charge, he is the one we are looking to to sort it out.
I do feel that we have the right to be worried as we are completely in the dark with regard to where the club is going.
I dont for a minute expect Randy or the General to keep us filled in on their pursuit of a new manager, that wouldn't serve any purpose.
At the same time, the longer it goes on like this, the more worried I feel.
I am hoping and praying that it is a case of Randy and the board being meticulous and careful in appointing the new manager.
However, I do not have absolute blind faith in them. MON resigned for a reason, we dont know what it is. But it does concern me.
Maybe MON was being completely unreasonable with what he expected, but......maybe not.
Until a new man is put in place and we see what, if any, signings can be made, my worries will persist.
The General is an absolute gent and a class act for answering us on this forum, but nothing he has said has really encouraged me if Im being honest.
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But an alternative reading would be that we just had no plan B – despite being aware of MON's volatility. As time goes on, I am increasingly persuaded that it is the latter, which begs the question of why were we not better prepared?
I posted a few weeks ago about how I thought the board would have a contingency plan is place, should we require a new manager. I was obviously wrong. That's not to say I'm panicing but I would hope and trust they'll learn from this sorry lesson.
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but to keep on moaning and critizing after getting your wish is just the hight of hypocrocy,
just have to give it time to see how things work out
Who's moaning? Not me. All I'm saying is that there are some questions that need answering.
As for getting my wish, like I said, my wish was for a better manager. We're halfway there.
And who we end up appointing will be an answer to at least one of those questions.
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[/quote]
Who's moaning? Not me. All I'm saying is that there are some questions that need answering.
As for getting my wish, like I said, my wish was for a better manager. We're halfway there.
And who we end up appointing will be an answer to at least one of those questions
[/quote]
I'm not sure what else you need to know other than what the General has already said. MON walked
out 5 days before the season started and we are now looking for a new manager. Simple as that really.
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Shit or get off the pot?
I think Randy has shit a couple of hundred million quid.
I'd just like to point out Randy is welcome to use my toilet any time.
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but to keep on moaning and critizing after getting your wish is just the hight of hypocrocy,
Sorry but I don't see any hypocrisy or contradiction at all in not being a fan of the manager and perhaps wanting him to go, but also showing some concern about the underlying conditions that resulted in him quitting. They are seperate issues.
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But an alternative reading would be that we just had no plan B – despite being aware of MON's volatility. As time goes on, I am increasingly persuaded that it is the latter, which begs the question of why were we not better prepared?
I posted a few weeks ago about how I thought the board would have a contingency plan is place, should we require a new manager. I was obviously wrong. That's not to say I'm panicing but I would hope and trust they'll learn from this sorry lesson.
[/quoteBut an alternative reading would be that we just had no plan B – despite being aware of MON's volatility. As time goes on, I am increasingly persuaded that it is the latter, which begs the question of why were we not better prepared?
I posted a few weeks ago about how I thought the board would have a contingency plan is place, should we require a new manager. I was obviously wrong. That's not to say I'm panicing but I would hope and trust they'll learn from this sorry lesson.
To a large extent contingency plans are also dependent upon timing. I'm sure that the board weren't expecting MON to walk out when he did. Had he decided in May or June that it was time to go, then I would guess they would have a lot more choices beyond the likes of Jol or Hughes who you would have to consider would have been prime candidates.
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I'm starting to wonder whether the football establishment isn't having a sly smile at the discomfort of these brash Americans with their populist ways and care for the supporters.
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But an alternative reading would be that we just had no plan B – despite being aware of MON's volatility. As time goes on, I am increasingly persuaded that it is the latter, which begs the question of why were we not better prepared?
I posted a few weeks ago about how I thought the board would have a contingency plan is place, should we require a new manager. I was obviously wrong. That's not to say I'm panicing but I would hope and trust they'll learn from this sorry lesson.
I think there was a contingency plan in place - up until a month or so ago when Mark Hughes believed that MON was going to stay so decided to accept Fulham's offer.
As someone else has said, would MON have gone if Hughes was still available?
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The title of this thread is a disgrace.
Pathetic, isn't it but no surprise.
Hold on a second...the title is a question I was putting out there.
Judging from the replies, it seems a valid enough one, as there are many varying opinions.
It is a bit similar to my thread - O'Neill - sack him or back him!
However your thread has been titled, questions need answering, although, personally, I am just grateful that he has gone.
I am of the school of thought that O'Neill is a very poisonous individual and am surprised that he hasn't said much yet. Maybe he is waiting until he is in the safety of a new job first. There can't be much of a confidentiality clause when you throw the towel in. Then again, whatever he says could be challenged by Villa and this might cause some revelations of his manner of management to be made more public than just passed around by members of staff in 'keep it to yourself but nobody likes O'Neill, you know' - style.
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I'm glad Mark Hughes isn't available. He walked around like his shit didn't stink at Man City. He needed to be humbled a little. I feel bad for Fulham actually because I don't think he's that committed to them and is just waiting for a bigger gig.
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The title of the thread is a disgrace? no it isn't. Its the title of a thread. It shapes what follows and the more tetchy the responses to a title the better the thread usually is as it gets people posting. The first thing we see when we come onto the forum are the titles and we'll scroll through the ones that look ess interesting to read the ones we think interest us.
'Shit or Get off the Pot' v 'Randy Lerner needs to spend more'
both mean the same thing but a lot of posters would just sigh and shrug at the latter and if it gets to page 5 or 6 may dip into the thread to see what people are saying. With the former everyone will express an emotive opinion on the title, author, the actual topic, and then it becomes a buzzing debate.
Stop being so touchy you lot that have maoned. The title is always designed to pull us in. Once there we can argue one way or t'other till the cows come home.
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Recurrent among the views of numerous posters is that MON intentionally decided to go at a time that caused maximum damage to the club.
Granted I don't know the guy personally, but it seems like a breathtaking allegation to me that he would go like that with no catalyst at all.
What are the other (more?) plausible explanations for the timing?
In response to Toronto: the nature of a contingency plan is that you assess the risk of an event and the appropriate response to it. You would do this systematically with all material risks. Given that MON as a manager was always in demand, known to be touting himself to other clubs (apparently) and had had to be pacified by the owner days before he went, I reckon he would (or should) have been flashing like a Christmas tree on the risk dashboard. There is just no excuse for not having a plan in those circumstances.
Don't get me wrong, the Board can still put things right by making the correct decision for the club now. Trouble is, they are having to make the decision in the worst possible conditions, which in turn obviously means that the liklihood of a positive outcome is smaller (and is shrinking by the day).
Even that is not fatal in the gran scheme of things. But what seems certain is that it is going to cost us significantly in development time.
And there we were thinking that what with the rise of Citeh, we'd already pitched up quite late enough at the party...
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Recurrent among the views of numerous posters is that MON intentionally decided to go at a time that caused maximum damage to the club.
Granted I don't know the guy personally, but it seems like a breathtaking allegation to me that he would go like that with no catalyst at all.
What are the other (more?) plausible explanations for the timing?
Whether intentional or not, it's a fact that he did leave at the most awkward time. That'll do for starters.
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Whether intentional or not, it's a fact that he did leave at the most awkward time. That'll do for starters.
Sure Dave, I wouldn't disagree with that.
But the intentional nature (or otherwise) of it is important when it comes deciding whether to pity the Board for the deplorable and near-hopeless position they currently find themselves in... Or, conversely, that the (admittedly well-meaning) Board has brought much of the current crisis upon itself.
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Whatever happened, they certainly didn't expect him to leave, which would indicate either breathtaking stupidity/naivety (which I certainly don't think they are) or duplicity on his part.
GOing back to the title of this thread - what more could we realistically expect from Randy?
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The title of the thread is a disgrace? no it isn't. Its the title of a thread. It shapes what follows and the more tetchy the responses to a title the better the thread usually is as it gets people posting. The first thing we see when we come onto the forum are the titles and we'll scroll through the ones that look ess interesting to read the ones we think interest us.
'Shit or Get off the Pot' v 'Randy Lerner needs to spend more'
both mean the same thing but a lot of posters would just sigh and shrug at the latter and if it gets to page 5 or 6 may dip into the thread to see what people are saying. With the former everyone will express an emotive opinion on the title, author, the actual topic, and then it becomes a buzzing debate.
Stop being so touchy you lot that have maoned. The title is always designed to pull us in. Once there we can argue one way or t'other till the cows come home.
I just wouldn't want Randy to see it as its massively unfair on him. Whereas you'd delight in any affront to our American overlords eh?
Anyway, I've said my piece. No harm done. No hard feelings towards jonzy. I just didnt like the title and I'm entitled to say so. Also, I rarely complain about anything.
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People snap. People walk away from jobs at the most inopportune moments. It doesn't have to be planned.
I can't imagine there would be a solid plan B in place for someone walking. It doesn't work like that.
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GOing back to the title of this thread - what more could we realistically expect from Randy?
I don't think anyone could really expect him to have done more than he has over the last four years. But the questions that need answering now are really about what he's intending to do over the next four years. Obviously the appointment of the next manager will be a major indication of that.
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I dont like the title off this thread. We have an owner who has invested heavily in the club and its infrastructure. Get of the pot? Have you got someone lined up to replace the pot sitter? I dont think there is anyone out there. I think it is a responsible attitude to try and sort the expenses out, I dont want to be in a Liverpool, Leeds etc position. Liverpool are in shit, and they have a much more global brand than we have thanks to a more successful history and better direction in previous years than we have. I wouldnt swap one thing with them today, first team player, owner, wage bill. I am happy with how he is running things for us, as there seems a lot of sense and forsight going into things from where I look
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But an alternative reading would be that we just had no plan B – despite being aware of MON's volatility. As time goes on, I am increasingly persuaded that it is the latter, which begs the question of why were we not better prepared?
I posted a few weeks ago about how I thought the board would have a contingency plan is place, should we require a new manager. I was obviously wrong. That's not to say I'm panicing but I would hope and trust they'll learn from this sorry lesson.
I think there was a contingency plan in place - up until a month or so ago when Mark Hughes believed that MON was going to stay so decided to accept Fulham's offer.
As someone else has said, would MON have gone if Hughes was still available?
Why would Hughes believe that there was likely to be a vacancy? Are you suggesting that our board sounded him out while O'Neill was still in the job? Pretty shitty thing to do if true.
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In response to Toronto: the nature of a contingency plan is that you assess the risk of an event and the appropriate response to it. You would do this systematically with all material risks. Given that MON as a manager was always in demand, known to be touting himself to other clubs (apparently) and had had to be pacified by the owner days before he went, I reckon he would (or should) have been flashing like a Christmas tree on the risk dashboard. There is just no excuse for not having a plan in those circumstances.
Don't get me wrong, the Board can still put things right by making the correct decision for the club now. Trouble is, they are having to make the decision in the worst possible conditions, which in turn obviously means that the liklihood of a positive outcome is smaller (and is shrinking by the day).
Even that is not fatal in the gran scheme of things. But what seems certain is that it is going to cost us significantly in development time.
The problem in comparing staff/managerial appointments in football to those in the private/ public sector (real life in other words) is they aren't like for like comparisons.
I think it was you (apologies if it wasn't) who said on another thread "If this happened on my watch my boss would be asking why I didn't have the risk covered," or similar.
The crucial difference being that you might have hundreds possibly thousands of suitable candidates should one of your employees decide one day that working for the man is overrated.
Football management -particularly at the very top level- has less of a catchment pool, might (I say might as I don't know the calibre and qualifications of the staff you employ) be viewed as more specialised and vacancies are generally harder to fill. So for that reason, the comparison is redundant.
You're effectively comparing apples to double decker buses.
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In response to Toronto: the nature of a contingency plan is that you assess the risk of an event and the appropriate response to it. You would do this systematically with all material risks. Given that MON as a manager was always in demand, known to be touting himself to other clubs (apparently) and had had to be pacified by the owner days before he went, I reckon he would (or should) have been flashing like a Christmas tree on the risk dashboard. There is just no excuse for not having a plan in those circumstances.
You simply cannot compare a regular business to football and use that analogy. It's not like having money put aside and being able to buy a new truck when your old one finally dies. In football, even if you had a list of names, their availability will vary with the time of year and whether or not they are under contract. I have no proof whether or not MON realized or calculated the impact of his departure. Either way it would have scuppered the best laid contingency plans.
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I think it was you (apologies if it wasn't) who said on another thread "If this happened on my watch my boss would be asking why I didn't have the risk covered," or similar.
The crucial difference being that you might have hundreds possibly thousands of suitable candidates should one of your employees decide one day that working for the man is overrated.
It was me, KevinGage.
I take your broad point that the situations are not like-for-like, i.e., replacing a burger boy at MacDonald's is not the same as replacing a PL manager. However, the only difference is the level of risk. The smaller the talent pool and the greater the reliance on the incumbent, the higher the level of risk. At Villa, we had "key man risk" with MON. All the more (and not less) reason to have a contingency plan, in my view.
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You simply cannot compare a regular business to football and use that analogy.
I explain above why I think that it applies to any business. In fact, it is one of the Board's primary responsibilities whether it be at AVFC or any other company.
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I totally agree with Claret Trim. The difficulty in replacing a manager is more of a reason to have a back up plan, not less.
Every business should have a succession plan.
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I think it was you (apologies if it wasn't) who said on another thread "If this happened on my watch my boss would be asking why I didn't have the risk covered," or similar.
The crucial difference being that you might have hundreds possibly thousands of suitable candidates should one of your employees decide one day that working for the man is overrated.
It was me, KevinGage.
I take your broad point that the situations are not like-for-like, i.e., replacing a burger boy at MacDonald's is not the same as replacing a PL manager. However, the only difference is the level of risk. The smaller the talent pool and the greater the reliance on the incumbent, the higher the level of risk. At Villa, we had "key man risk" with MON. All the more (and not less) reason to have a contingency plan, in my view.
Perhaps Kev Mac is the contingency plan though? Someone who knows the club inside out at this point.
The situation in football is constantly changing. I can fully believe that there are/ were managers at other clubs that the board would keep an eye on (I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say they are huge admirers of David Moyes, for example), and would keep abreast of their contract situation. Plus any whispers on the grapevine of dissatisfaction with their current employers or notions of said manager (s) looking for 'a new challenge' and so forth.
That's all well and good.
But an already limited selection pool (I'd say even at the most opportune times the number of suitable candidates probably numbers less than ten) reduces further still right at the very start of a new campaign, with less than two weeks of the transfer window remaining.
At present -and in contrast to other periods in our history- there isn't a manager pulling up trees at a smaller club who immediately stands out, a club we could lean on and where they realistically wouldn't be able to say no to us.
And any similar sized (or bigger) club worth their salt wouldn't let a manager go at this time of year, not if they have any ambitions to do well themselves.
To fulfil notions of having a contingency plan we could have a whole raft of names to draw upon; anyone from Paul Jewell to Graeme Souness. I don't think they (or similar) would be of the required standard though, and wouldn't be palatable to the majority of the fanbase.
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I totally agree with Claret Trim. The difficulty in replacing a manager is more of a reason to have a back up plan, not less.
Every business should have a succession plan.
And they likely do but you cannot deny that the sudden timing of events has had a bearing. What if the list of 10 or so names they had were all available in various capacities in June or July? Once the season rolls closer all of those potential candidates would have tied themselves into jobs also because they don't uncertainty either. They wouldn't have been hanging on because of any rumours of unrest at Villa. Otherwise someone like Mark Hughes wouldn't have gone to Fulham. I'm quit convinced he's dying inside with his decision.
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Why would Hughes believe that there was likely to be a vacancy? Are you suggesting that our board sounded him out while O'Neill was still in the job? Pretty shitty thing to do if true.
Maybe because it seemed to be common knowledge within footballing circles that MON was vying for the Liverpool job. When Hodgeson got that gig Hughes probably believed that the Villa job was not available and went for the Fulham job as second choice after Jol.
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I totally agree with Claret Trim. The difficulty in replacing a manager is more of a reason to have a back up plan, not less.
Every business should have a succession plan.
And they likely do but you cannot deny that the sudden timing of events has had a bearing. What if the list of 10 or so names they had were all available in various capacities in June or July?
The timing has no bearing on having a plan. What if he was run over by a bus?
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I totally agree with Claret Trim. The difficulty in replacing a manager is more of a reason to have a back up plan, not less.
Every business should have a succession plan.
And they likely do but you cannot deny that the sudden timing of events has had a bearing. What if the list of 10 or so names they had were all available in various capacities in June or July?
The timing has no bearing on having a plan. What if he was run over by a bus?
Then we'd be in exactly the same position as we are now. Off course it has a bearing.
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Off course it has a bearing.
You are right insofar as the timing can increase the risk, which in turns makes the need for a plan all the greater.
To put it simply in the context of the events, were we thinking one step ahead when MON was on the point of throwing his toys out of the pram (or was backed into a corner, whichever way you look at it, it is immaterial now)?
Surely that is the only game in town?
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Sorry, but I don't see how you can have a contingency manager? It isn't like you can do with a brief and pay them retainers.
The board, for example, rate David Moyes highly. Had Randy and MON had the meeting in May and decided that the club was to take a new direction then it may well have been that Moyes would have been courted and brought in.
Not many managers want to drop their clubs in the shit by leaving on the eve of the season so he isn't available at this time.
What can they do?
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The board, for example, rate David Moyes highly. Had Randy and MON had the meeting in May and decided that the club was to take a new direction then it may well have been that Moyes would have been courted and brought in.
Not many managers want to drop their clubs in the shit by leaving on the eve of the season so he isn't available at this time.
What can they do?
The point about contingency plans is that they deal with situations that have not gone to plan. The situation you describe above is one that is going according to plan.
Perhaps the Board did have one but that in itself went tits up? That would be pretty bad luck. However, that doesn't seem likely judging by the smoke signals coming out of the club. But then, who knows?
Ultimately the point boils down to something fairly simple: were we thinking one step ahead? That is the job of the custodians of the club. I really don't think that this is the slightest bit controversial.
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But how far does the "one step ahead" thinking go?
Do you plan to have a coach take over in the interim and have a number of candidates that you would like to interview? That makes sense but it doesn't mean that you will be able to get them.
And can you imagine the furore if we approached Moyes and said "If we ever sack MON, or he walks out, or gets run over by a bus, no matter what point in time that might occur, will you immediately drop everything and take over at the Villa?".
It's nonsensical. Talking to another manager who might already be in a post is tapping up and is a surefire way of fucking off the incumbent.
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What if -in a fit of pique- MON burned Villa Park to the ground after bailing out?
Where is the contingency for that?
Or Kevin Mac started firing off RPG's into the Trinity Road stand v West Ham?
Extreme examples, but you really can't cover every eventuality.
If RL had spoken to MON on Sat night and everything was hunky dorey, and then on Monday MON decides that the players hate him and doesn't fancy it any more, I don't see how the board are liable.
They'll be judged on the next appointment. They know that, so they have to get it right.
I'd much rather that scenario than Graeme Souness or Phil Brown parachuted in within 24 hours of MON's departure. That would have been a rapid response, would it not? But still a poor one.
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I totally agree with Claret Trim. The difficulty in replacing a manager is more of a reason to have a back up plan, not less.
Every business should have a succession plan.
We've been assured they didn't then?
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What if -in a fit of pique- MON burned Villa Park to the ground after bailing out?
Where is the contingency for that?
Or Kevin Mac started firing off RPG's into the Trinity Road stand v West Ham?
Extreme examples, but you really can't cover every eventuality.
If RL had spoken to MON on Sat night and everything was hunky dorey, and then on Monday MON decides that the players hate him and doesn't fancy it any more, I don't see how the board are liable.
They'll be judged on the next appointment. They know that, so they have to get it right.
I'd much rather that scenario than Graeme Souness or Phil Brown parachuted in within 24 hours of MON's departure. That would have been a rapid response, would it not? But still a poor one.
When you strip out the characters involved, the first example would amount to business continuity risk (i.e., ability to keep operating in the event of a catastrophic incident) and the second I guess would be risk of terrorism. I would be very surprised if the club did not have plans in place for just such events.
No offence KevinGage, but f I had meant "hire Phil Brown/Graeme Sourness" by contingency plan, I might have said just that!
The Board is not "liable" in the legal sense in the event of a material adverse event. BUt it is responsible.
Can't find this year's accounts, but this is what the annual report said in 2005:
Risk Assessment
Management has the responsibility for the identification and evaluation of significant risks applicable to their area of business, together with the design of suitable internal controls. The risks are assessed by the management on a continual basis. A Group risk register is maintained and this is reviewed by the Audit Committee each year.
An in-depth risk report 3 months ago would almost certainly have flagged up "key man risk" with regard to MON (as well as "key man risk" with regard to certain players, even the owner, I guess).
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I totally agree with Claret Trim. The difficulty in replacing a manager is more of a reason to have a back up plan, not less.
Every business should have a succession plan.
We've been assured they didn't then?
Nobody is saying that (on the contrary, that point has been made several times in this thread). But it certainly doesn't look like they have.
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I wish we'd risk management plans in place in the event of MON signing Emile Fucking Heskey.
We knew it would happen, it actually did happen, and we're lumbered with the useless fecker
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Couldn't have put it better myself paulie.
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What if -in a fit of pique- MON burned Villa Park to the ground after bailing out?
Where is the contingency for that?
Or Kevin Mac started firing off RPG's into the Trinity Road stand v West Ham?
Extreme examples, but you really can't cover every eventuality.
If RL had spoken to MON on Sat night and everything was hunky dorey, and then on Monday MON decides that the players hate him and doesn't fancy it any more, I don't see how the board are liable.
They'll be judged on the next appointment. They know that, so they have to get it right.
I'd much rather that scenario than Graeme Souness or Phil Brown parachuted in within 24 hours of MON's departure. That would have been a rapid response, would it not? But still a poor one.
When you strip out the characters involved, the first example would amount to business continuity risk (i.e., ability to keep operating in the event of a catastrophic incident) and the second I guess would be risk of terrorism. I would be very surprised if the club did not have plans in place for just such events.
No offence KevinGage, but f I had meant "hire Phil Brown/Graeme Sourness" by contingency plan, I might have said just that!
The Board is not "liable" in the legal sense in the event of a material adverse event. BUt it is responsible.
Can't find this year's accounts, but this is what the annual report said in 2005:
Risk Assessment
Management has the responsibility for the identification and evaluation of significant risks applicable to their area of business, together with the design of suitable internal controls. The risks are assessed by the management on a continual basis. A Group risk register is maintained and this is reviewed by the Audit Committee each year.
An in-depth risk report 3 months ago would almost certainly have flagged up "key man risk" with regard to MON (as well as "key man risk" with regard to certain players, even the owner, I guess).
How about if Kevin Mac is -and always was- the contingency?
Is it completely out of the question?
Think about it, it's not as if it took him long to step into the breach. So there was no extended period of limbo for the players or supporters in regards to that particular decision.
The idea that there was no back up plan/ risk management might have more validity if there had been an extended period of uum-ing and aahing from the board "shall we appoint a caretaker/ shall we go straight to a long term appointment?" and so on.
Kevin Mac is a trusted member of staff.
Perhaps it was decided months/ even years ago that if MON was to depart either because of another job offer or personal reasons Kevin Mac would hold the fort until such time as an adequate long term replacement was acquired. I'm pretty certain the board would be aware that such a character would most likely be in demand for other jobs too, and he wouldn't be waiting around on the off chance that a vacancy cropped up at the Villa.
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The more I look at it the more I think they're prepared to write off this season while they look for a long-term successor, or if Kev Mac does the job well, keep him there. This also has the added benefit of letting us see how the 25 players and any other new rules might affect us.
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I tend to agree Dave, but I think it would be a mistake.
We'd be 99% certain of losing Ash and if they want to see a reversal in declining gates, writing this season off isn't really going to help in that regard.
It also makes it that much harder to try to close the gap and gain any kind of momentum next summer, so there would be a certain amount of naivety at play if they assume autopilot up until that time will suffice.
Klinsmann with his relative lack of experience of Sven with his damaged reputation might be more open to a short term deal -with a view to extending based on progress. That would be a better route and create more of a buzz than effectively announcing to the world we aren't going to bother this year - which is what I'd take the Kev Mac appointment to signify.
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Maybe they could also play the "It was going to be a difficult season, but with ther manager leaving as he did it'll be impossible and here's the least-painful option." I don't know, but they might.
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I tend to agree Dave, but I think it would be a mistake.
We'd be 99% certain of losing Ash and if they want to see a reversal in declining gates, writing this season off isn't really going to help in that regard.
It also makes it that much harder to try to close the gap and gain any kind of momentum next summer, so there would be a certain amount of naivety at play if they assume autopilot up until that time will suffice.
Klinsmann with his relative lack of experience of Sven with his damaged reputation might be more open to a short term deal -with a view to extending based on progress. That would be a better route and create more of a buzz than effectively announcing to the world we aren't going to bother this year - which is what I'd take the Kev Mac appointment to signify.
It is what I took the Pelty/General posts on the first day of pre-season to signify and nothing that has happened since has pointed in any other direction.
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Aye, you've made that pretty clear.
And you could be right yet, who knows.
Would you backtrack if we made a notable appointment though, or would you continue to take issue with the board for something they ultimately had very little control over - MON's walk out?
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Aye, you've made that pretty clear.
And you could be right yet, who knows.
Would you backtrack if we made a notable appointment though, or would you continue to take issue with the board for something they ultimately had very little control over - MON's walk out?
I would be delighted to see any indication whatsoever that my concerns were unfounded.
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The more I look at it the more I think they're prepared to write off this season while they look for a long-term successor, or if Kev Mac does the job well, keep him there. This also has the added benefit of letting us see how the 25 players and any other new rules might affect us.
Which poses the question were they prepared to write it off even before the manager walked and were the two issues related?
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The more I look at it the more I think they're prepared to write off this season while they look for a long-term successor, or if Kev Mac does the job well, keep him there. This also has the added benefit of letting us see how the 25 players and any other new rules might affect us.
You talk about a long-term successor, but what you mean is, a manager for a few years before the moaning begins, and he leaves.
Long-term would be 5 years +. Maybe then a manager could build a team and not have to buy one to finish high in the league, of which you need money to do that. And lot's of it.
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How about if Kevin Mac is -and always was- the contingency?
Is it completely out of the question?
Think about it, it's not as if it took him long to step into the breach. So there was no extended period of limbo for the players or supporters in regards to that particular decision.
The idea that there was no back up plan/ risk management might have more validity if there had been an extended period of uum-ing and aahing from the board "shall we appoint a caretaker/ shall we go straight to a long term appointment?" and so on.
Kevin Mac is a trusted member of staff.
Perhaps it was decided months/ even years ago that if MON was to depart either because of another job offer or personal reasons Kevin Mac would hold the fort until such time as an adequate long term replacement was acquired.
It's possible. I've said several times that we obviously don't know what the Board was thinking, only what it looks like they were thinking. However, if Kevin Mac was the contingency plan, then (as you point out in your reply to DW above) that would plainly have been a mistake.
Personally, I think it looks rather more like Kevin Mac was the last man standing after the coaching staff was decimated. For example, had he been the plan, surely by now he would have been calling the shots, getting in the staff essential to a club of our stature (fitness coach), doing some player trading, etc.
Instead we have a state of (apparent) inertia – manifested, as Dave says, in an (apparent) readiness to "write off the season".