Time for Randy to s*** or get off the pot?

[Villa'Zawg]

If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably".  The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently.   So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.

Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy.  Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy.  And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said.  I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.

You should leave me out of this.

Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences.  I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.

[Lizz]

At work I spend time investigating [for wont of a better word] allegations relating to disciplinary offences or poor performance. Inevitably, nine times out of ten, both parties have contributed to the situation to differing degrees. That doesn't mean an employee can justify poor performance because their line manager isn't perfect.

[Dave Clark Five]

One thing that Randy Lerner did succeed at was in getting O'Neill to resign instead of having to sack him. There must be some financial saving in that, even though I don't know the terms of O'Neill's contract.

I would also imagine that O'Neill, with his private family lounge just along from the Board Room, was a difficult manager to manage. Player power is one thing but Manager power is a totally different beast. Regardless of Lerner's business acumen and great wealth, O'Neill must have been hard to control for someone who had only been in the English game for such a relatively short period.
I suspect he will want someone far less secretive, less devious and someone who does not bear so much malice as his next appointment. Some of O'Neill's comments were akin to 'bugger the fans, I'm in charge'. That was always going to be an embarrassment for someone like Lerner who seems to want to improve the match day experience for the fans, at least off the pitch which was an area that he could control.

[pauliewalnuts]

If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably".  The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently.   So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.

Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy.  Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy.  And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said.  I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.

You should leave me out of this.

Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences.  I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.

If there's one person who deserves the description "gutless" right now, it is the manager who walked out on us five days before the start of the season - a point which he could scarcely have improved on in terms of "maximum damage" caused.

He's a calculating fucker, and i suspect that part of the reason he bailed when he did is because he knew it would leave us with an impossible job finding a decent manager in the time we have before the closing of the transfer window, thus preserving his legacy and casting him in the best light possible.

I can understand the way some media pundits have bought into the MON thing, but it is unedifying to see supporters of the club he has royally fucked in the arse - the consequences of which I fear we are only just starting to realise - still making up pathetic excuses for him.

Actually, whilst O'Neill is the one most deserving the term gutless, he's not the only one. The same term could be used for some of the people who have written unforgiveably poisonous nonsense - like the title of this thread for starters - about the man who, until two weeks ago, they were proclaiming the best owner in the league.

Gutless is one word. Ungrateful, petulant and - he's a corker for you - f1ckle are a few more.

I only hope we sort a decent manager and make something of this season, with the appropriate investment provided, as there are going to be a few people looking like prize idiots when we reflect back on this period.

[TimTheVillain]

One thing that Randy Lerner did succeed at was in getting O'Neill to resign instead of having to sack him. There must be some financial saving in that, even though I don't know the terms of O'Neill's contract.

I would also imagine that O'Neill, with his private family lounge just along from the Board Room, was a difficult manager to manage. Player power is one thing but Manager power is a totally different beast. Regardless of Lerner's business acumen and great wealth, O'Neill must have been hard to control for someone who had only been in the English game for such a relatively short period.
I suspect he will want someone far less secretive, less devious and someone who does not bear so much malice as his next appointment. Some of O'Neill's comments were akin to 'bugger the fans, I'm in charge'. That was always going to be an embarrassment for someone like Lerner who seems to want to improve the match day experience for the fans, at least off the pitch which was an area that he could control.

All of MON's excenrticities could have been excused if he'd delivered as a Manager.

He wasn't around long enough to be judged properly, but I guess he did OK in his time here all in all.

I think the man's a total control freak and as such, didn't like having to ask for decsions to be rafitfied - in other words he wanted to TELL Randy what HE wanted and wanted a YES from him.

As soon as the YES's turned to MAYBE's and NO's, he flipped, drove off and has not set foot on anything AVFC since.

I had a busines partner like this until 2003 - you just can't see what's coming with this type of person and Randy certainly did not see this happening - I think he knew he had a temperamental Manager in MON, but accepted that as part of the package.

Randy strikes me as a very proud man who is proud to own AVFC, so on this basis alone he will get a good Manager in, but things need some time.....contracts / financials / agents/ agreeing the vision .... it's not a quick process.

I am backing Randy to deliver.



 

[DB]

At work I spend time investigating [for wont of a better word] allegations relating to disciplinary offences or poor performance. Inevitably, nine times out of ten, both parties have contributed to the situation to differing degrees. That doesn't mean an employee can justify poor performance because their line manager isn't perfect.

Interesting point Lizz. Yes, normally when employee is poor the Manager has contributed to some degree, and also performance suffers when the relationship between the 2 is poor......MON & RL ?

[KevinGage]

He's a calculating fucker, and i suspect that part of the reason he bailed when he did is because he knew it would leave us with an impossible job finding a decent manager in the time we have before the closing of the transfer window, thus preserving his legacy and casting him in the best light possible.

That might be part of it Paulie.

I say might, as I'd like to believe he couldn't be that vindictive.

I'd say a bigger part of it was leaving when he did got exactly the type of responses and cover he wanted. "Well it must have been serious/ there must have been some backtracking/ broken promises from the board/ the board are no longer as ambitious as Martin," and so on.  Job done, legacy protected.

I mentioned on another thread, but I reckon the reason things came to a head was probably more simple -  the response of the players in training. It's the only thing that adequately explains the timing of it all. After the talks in March and May MON probably did want to see the thing through (Liverpool interest not withstanding).

But dealing with disgruntled players -either players he had fallen out with/ ostracised or those who no longer responded to his methods in pre season probably soured his mood.

Combine that with a frustration at not offloading some of the above and being able to bring in more players, and the fear of the battering his legacy might take if we did have a mediocre season on his watch and you get the events of two weeks ago.

[SteveD]

O'Neill didn't have to remain Villa manager under any circumstances, and he carefully set out his contracts with clubs to ensure he took stock annually. There's no doubting his ambition for Champions League and probably his frustration that Villa would need serious bucks year-on-year to even have a sniff, were clearly not going to be matched. We can only imagine - because we're sure not getting answers from any of the parties involved - that the Milner transfer cash was the tipping point. Timing? Not good, and neither would be quitting after the transfer window closed.
Sure, we have some dead wood, but one man's dead wood is another's must-have - the rather bizarre clamour for Reo Coker for instance, who is as one dimensional as they come. Ferguson and Benitez have signed some dreadful players for big money over the last 2-3 years; we moaned for years about our ultra thin squad, which desperately needed beefing up - the irony is, O'Neill got his squad, but only wanted to play the same XI. Owner sees money burning on the bench. I can live with Steve Sidwell spending 12 months in tracky bottoms, because there's no argument that Young, Milner, Cuellar, Dunne etc were great buys.

I don't blame Randy for giving up the chase, it's probably money down the pan the Premiership now, and money down the pan whoever takes charge. His safety first approach to grow the club is sensible and laudable, but we won't "kick on" - one criticism of O'Neill's limitations (despite 6th place and two Wembley appearances last season, never enough for some - substance but not enough style). What worries me is not the strategy, if it was properly explained and reasoned to the fans, it's that so little has come out of the club at all, apart from some rather childish sniping. On the face of it, creating the circumstances that led to O'Neill going isn't going to attract the likes of a Hiddink or Jol. The mid-ranking club will get a mid-ranking manager, or someone like Sven, looking for another well-paid bolt-hole for a year or two. It leaves us seem increasingly like fumbling over the new manager. It's a very big couple of weeks for him - and us.

[Villa'Zawg]

If I meant "blindly" I would have said "blindly"; I meant "indefatigably" which is why I said "indefatigably".  The likes of villadawg defended him blindly - that is to say in defiance of all evidence to the contrary - but for your own part you did defend him tirelessly and unflaggingly until very very recently.   So I can't believe you're asking me to dredge up all the posts you made, many of them in response to my own, where you were resolute in your defence of O'Neill, his methods and judgements.

Which is why I find it difficult to fathom why you're now saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to question Randy.  Martin O'Neill's decision to quit five days before the start of the new season is reason enough in itself to question Randy.  And, as someone who had as much faith in Martin as almost anyone on H&V did, I'm very surprised by what you said.  I'm not saying Randy has definitely got this wrong but there is undoubtedly good reason to question what he is doing, and what he is planning to do.

You should leave me out of this.

Having got what you wanted in O'Neill leaving the club, it is no surprise to me to see your gutless reaction to the potential consequences.  I have to say though, it's an extremely unedifying spectacle.

If there's one person who deserves the description "gutless" right now, it is the manager who walked out on us five days before the start of the season - a point which he could scarcely have improved on in terms of "maximum damage" caused.

He's a calculating fucker, and i suspect that part of the reason he bailed when he did is because he knew it would leave us with an impossible job finding a decent manager in the time we have before the closing of the transfer window, thus preserving his legacy and casting him in the best light possible.

I can understand the way some media pundits have bought into the MON thing, but it is unedifying to see supporters of the club he has royally fucked in the arse - the consequences of which I fear we are only just starting to realise - still making up pathetic excuses for him.

Actually, whilst O'Neill is the one most deserving the term gutless, he's not the only one. The same term could be used for some of the people who have written unforgiveably poisonous nonsense - like the title of this thread for starters - about the man who, until two weeks ago, they were proclaiming the best owner in the league.

Gutless is one word. Ungrateful, petulant and - he's a corker for you - f1ckle are a few more.

I only hope we sort a decent manager and make something of this season, with the appropriate investment provided, as there are going to be a few people looking like prize idiots when we reflect back on this period.

I'll make my own judgement on O'Neill's departure when I know more about the circumstances. It takes a peculiar mindset to arrive at your unsubstantiated conclusion that it was done to inflict maximum damage and to protect his media image but maybe the facts will bear your opinion out, maybe they won't. 

As you know, my doubts about the direction the club are taking began on the first day of pre-season with the pelty/General Krulak posts that appeared to contradict the comments from Randy in May. I've asked what I believe are valid questions about our stated intent to compete for trophies and CL places. I'd love to think there may have been a method to this madness and in the background there is a project moving towards appointing a high quality manager and bringing in some players to strengthen the squad. Even if there isn't, it won't change my part in things. I'm a supporter, all I can do is support the club at the games and through the tills, that's all I ever do.

I agree with you about Hilts though 

[old man villa fan]

Reading some peoples comments about their perception of Randy Lerner's loss of interest and lack of ambition reminds me of a time back in the mid 90's when I was working as a construction cost consultant in the Far East.  I was at a meeting with one of Thailand's leading property developers who was looking to construct an indoor sports complex that could be used for the Asian Games.  He had brought in Australian architects to design the building and as with many schemes of its kind, it was way over budget and many around the table were saying this is what you have to pay for this type of building etc.  The Thai developer listened to the cross talk between the people at the meeting and then said "People just expect me to bend over and s*** money out of my a*** so that they can spend it for me".  At that point he said the meeting was over and walked out.  The guy was a smart cookie and he knew the value of building this complex and how much he should spend on it.

I get the impression that many supporters think that Randy should do just the same (the first part, not walk out!).

Just because Randy is not going to burn money on a dream, it does not mean he does not have ambition and is not trying to achieve success.

Unlike the owners of Man City and Chelsea before them,  Randy is caught up in the law of diminishing returns.  He has invested a lot but cannot be expected to continue with the same level of investment when progression stalls.  Investment in an asset will increase the value of the asset to a certain point.  Not to say that you don't continue a lesser investment to maintain the value of the asset.  It is time for Randy to take stock of the situation and look at another way of pushing on, that is not through major investment.

I have faith in the guy as he is no novice in being involved with major sports clubs.  Top businessmen can run any business, providing they have the right advisors around them.  Football is a top business, make no mistake about it.

[ROBBO]

Few points. GK has stated that Randy and MON met on the Saturday and everything was fine, he walked in on Monday and resigned. What happened in between? Randy was in America, who else or what else could have upset MON that much that he would resign immediately?
The game against Newcastle was a debacle agreed but with key players still out it's not the time to panic.
People criticise McDonald bringing Keskey on, for once i don't. We were outmuscled all over the pitch the last thing we needed was to bring on another lightweight.
Liverpool looked second rate against City and will not make top four this year, it's all about money.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Few points. GK has stated that Randy and MON met on the Saturday and everything was fine, he walked in on Monday and resigned. What happened in between?

´
Saturday night: Made five phone calls.
Sunday: O'Neill got all his backroom staff together, told them he was going to leave and wanted them all to join him. Promises next job he gets they'll all go with him. Gives them 24 hours to decide.
Monday morning: Reads texts from the five. Hands in resignation. Leaves Randy and Villa in the shit. Pisses himself laughing.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

The title of this thread is a disgrace.

Pathetic, isn't it but no surprise.

[eamonn]

What was Pelty/General Krulak's post on the first day of pre-season? Must have missed it.

[Scott Nielsen]

The title of this thread is a disgrace.

It's a fucking affront, I agree.