Wake me up when it's over

[eliotpollak]

It’s such a shame when there are folk genuinely just trying to oppose nastiness, then get called nasty for it.

I think it’s kind of impressive the extra tolerance shown to someone remarkably intolerant (usual banning behaviour, like challenging mods to ban them rudely) I presume just because applying rules as usual would in an era of hypersensitivity result in exactly more accusations of prejudice, when it would in-fact be about upholding decent communication values. I’m glad I’m not a moderator on here. Thank you for your efforts.

I’ve been off here mainly, and was struck by the balanced and patient maturity of Amfy’s comment early in this tranche, when I popped back yesterday.

It’s one of the tragic wonders and ironies of modern history that a people who have experienced such unimaginable horrors, genocide and associated intergenerational traumas, end up defensively oppressing to the point of such utterly remarkable horror, that all reasonable voices and the UN indeed label genocide.

And a remarkable thing that it’s not possible to call out a behaviour or political standpoint without being labelled as against a religio-ethnic identity. The incapacity to even consider this seems to serve to weaken the psychologically defensive cause, the understanding of it and average natural sympathies to it.

It’s clear to me this forum has a left/liberal and anti-racist tendency, as well as an often relatively thoughtful and intelligent capacity, underlying the shenanigans. When it’s described as full of racists, again the validity and trustworthiness of a posters opinions feels undermined, any valid points risk being lost in the long grass and much cared for causes are not served.

Or to put it more succinctly by some of the Bards of the parish, fellow lovers not fighters:

I am anti-racist and an excellent lover.

You'll be told you're an anti-lover and excellent racist soon.

Wow. Erudite anti-semitism too. This forum has it all.

What on earth was anti-semitic about that?

https://chatgpt.com/share/69263d8e-c734-8010-b782-e6ec8d7fe5ca

See this is the thing about this entire thread. You all know nothing about the Middle East, anti-semitism. I suspect most of you don’t have a Jew in your phone contacts list.
And that’s fine.
But if I, or anyone I respect didn’t know anything about a topic, they wouldn’t opine authoritatively on it, whilst quoting people on Twitter. I’d just sit it out. Nothing wrong with that. You don’t need an opinion on everything - you’re not an Embassy.
In the last page alone, some nonsense about Jews beating people up in Athens, some genuine puzzlement why Jews don’t want to live in an area where the local mp has said Jews aren’t welcome, and now an extended essay by this clown about how terrible it is to call people names, whilst planting some classic 101 Jew-hate in the middle.
Maybe just shut up and listen to people who know what they’re talking about. Or have some humility as you lot keep saying.

[Legion]

Like you did when you quoted Twitter posts out of context and not relevant on here?

[dave.woodhall]

I have three Jews in my phone contacts. They're three of the most influential people in my career and I have enormous respect for them all. Am I allowed an opinion now?

[cdbearsfan]

They're probably the antisemitic sort of Jews.

[Somniloquism]

Is Michael Rosen one of them?

[purpletrousers]

I can also imagine myself into a situation where there can be genuine oppression against my people, and the understandable sensitivities that come with it. I think it’s the need for that to go both ways that seems to lack sometimes.

Ok I’ve just seen I’ve been accused of being racist myself. Hmmm.

Well leaving aside any professional/spiritual responsibilities, Eliot I’m a big fan of saying yes, all of us, and I mean all are subject to unconscious/everyday racism, I’ve cited before


Ok quoting from old Tyrone and then Monchi threads (the emboldening was not my own but serves the point)

Agreed. “Othering” is very seductive and makes it feel easier to be who we are, to not own our* shadow/less pleasant bits. There is unconscious/everyday racism in all of us.

I was struck with that “Liam Neeson says he's 'not racist' after controversial interview”. If he’d have started from acknowledging we all have our concious or unconscious prejudices he might have got his good intentions taken more seriously.

I always recommend this (3.5mins) video to folk on everyday racism by Akala (Musician/writer/all rounder, was West Ham/Wimbledon youth) 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/mar/18/everyday-racism-what-should-we-do

Have seen it really affect a training group atmosphere as collective pennies drop.

*edit: individual and collective

Both interesting points SN & LeeB. Aware also of my own potential to be accused of being ‘stale, male & pale’, though the lack of dullness in my life might preclude the stale, I might aspire to a bit more dullness on the surface at least.

The question of who who gets a call to say something is offensive or not is fascinating too. What I do know is I’m proud the Holte turned on the guy calling Dwight Gale on loan to Newcastle a West Brom Monkey or Gorilla or whatever it was. I think there was more history of deep unpleasantness than I was aware but it’s was just brilliant that the mainly white crowd around him was having absolutely none of it, and he was challenged in every way. 

However we are still in the realm of conscious/volitional racism. Just as Akala catches himself being racist towards someone who looks just like him. The video is only 3.5mins if you’ve never seen it, I’d argue is essential watching to touch base with terms of reference almost. I’m not a fan of the feel of micro-aggressions, but seem very willing with his help to own my own ‘everyday racism’.

So my point is I am racist. We are all racist. To varying levels and degrees of awareness. Start from there and we can get somewhere. The assertion around its not racist if it wasn’t meant to be nasty is not very helpful, and fails to take into account structural racism that shapes all of us however unconscious.
The idea of innocent customs (gollywog toys anyone?) or ‘innocent motivations’ for even crimes (I think that’s a bit unfortunate taking about that next to murder). Just thinking about stop and search frequencies, the athletes that had a horrific experience because of their nice car and colour of their skin; the idea of profiling (of course socio-economic, migrational variables etc). There’s just a lot in that post that never mind the black and white right and wrong, doesn’t seem massively helpful, or in my tradition’s ethical language, ‘skilful’.


Just for the sake of completeness I thought I’d dig out the Liam Neeson story, blimey it’s still a bit shocking to read today and I can make more sense of my previous comment. https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-47133868.amp

I fully agree with this, and I also think a lot of people don't really understand the term, like they think racism is only when it's something directly aggressive or nasty.

You have to work at it, challenge your own prejudices. Maybe it's not 'racism' in the classic sense but the habit of 'othering' and then subconciously applying it in your head, I think the same kind of thinking produces mysogyny too.

I've tried to teach my kids in the basic sense that people are not better or worse because they're black, white, mixed race, male or female, they're only representative of themselves and not a group. Except for Blues fans.

[dave.woodhall]

Is Michael Rosen one of them?

Sadly, no.

[Somniloquism]

So an MP being in position for 18 months is why Jews haven't lived in Birmingham for any great numbers* for the last 300 years. Gotcha.

* Compared to the size of the city and the Jewish Population in other smaller cities per capita.

[Somniloquism]

Is Michael Rosen one of them?

Sadly, no.

Shame as well. Great man but mentioned him in response to CD's post as he was also accused of being anti-semitic by people as sensitve as Elliot seems to be, including having someone photoshop one of his books to look like he was reading from The Protocols.

[Rory]

I'd say the Jewish people who don't live in Birmingham made the decision because they knew he was a Villa fan and were worried about bumping into this fucking guy!

[eliotpollak]

So an MP being in position for 18 months is why Jews haven't lived in Birmingham for any great numbers* for the last 300 years. Gotcha.

* Compared to the size of the city and the Jewish Population in other smaller cities per capita.

No. But the fact that a large chunk of the local electorate had no qualms about electing a man like that, shows that the area itself has now for a while, not been the most alluring for a Jewish person.
It’s been a gradual decline from at one point being the second city behind London in its Jewish population. The only Jewish school left is now majority Muslim bc most Jews have moved away. That’s not controversial or Tommy Robinson. It’s a fact.
(And I also said there are many other reasons.)
But trying to set up some sort of clever gotcha that I’m prejudiced for pointing this out…intellectual level of a frog.

[Rory]

He's having a pop at frogs now!

[Brazilian Villain]

He's having a pop at frogs now!

Just as well BE isn't around these days.

[Drummond]

Sounds like Gaza Genocide Denial to me. Not sure there's a specific word for that though, yet.

So when terms like antisemite are being chucked about like confetti, perhaps a long look in the mirror may be appropriate.

It's interesting when the term antisemitism is used when there are suggestions of duality of interests (such as towards a person's own country and to that of Israel) yet in your specific case, given that your previous job was to shape the news about Israel and how it's viewed in the world, it's just fact.

Elliot you're a loser.

[eliotpollak]

Is Michael Rosen one of them?

Sadly, no.

Shame as well. Great man but mentioned him in response to CD's post as he was also accused of being anti-semitic by people as sensitve as Elliot seems to be, including having someone photoshop one of his books to look like he was reading from The Protocols.

Yes. Michael Rosen is an antisemite and is considered so by most Jews. He’s never been invited to do a reading in a single Jewish school, and has been blacklisted by pretty much every Jewish cultural event.
Again, you have a good laugh about things you know nothing about.