Wake me up when it's over

[Clampy]

It’s not about agreeing with me. The ICJ, the UN’s legal investigators, genocide scholars, Amnesty and Human Rights Watch all say the genocide case is real.

Your attempts at a sidestepping parallel argument don’t work. National Governments don’t call the shots on this as there interest is political.

If “never again” means anything, it has to apply to everyone.

We can talk about Villa if you like. Join me in a match thread some time.

Yes. Please lecture me about the Holocaust, and what lessons I should draw from it. That’s really what I need. I take different lessons from Never Again.
During matches im watching with my kids or at games so dont really want to be on my phone posting my thoughts. I’ve no interest in being on a forum generally to be honest. It’s a bit 2002. And especially one where anti-semitism is allowed / encouraged to flourish.

I only came back on because our lawyers are highlighting all cases of defamation against our supporters club, and included Dave’s post in their package. I said ignore that, I’ve known these guys for 25 years, I’ll correct the record and they’ll be cool. Ah well

No-one is forcing you to post during matches. I manage to watch the games for 90 minutes without feeling the need to come on here and I suspect so do lots of other people. It's incredibly easy really.

[LeeB]

"I really don’t know much about Tommy Robinson, but Owen Jones is just as bad in his hate and his views. In fact for Jewish people, he is far worse obviously. Again, it’s not an opinion. You can go and ask 1000 Jews if Owen Jones is a racist. They will all say yes."

I think if you asked 1000 Jews about Owen Jones, 75% would say "who?"
If you asked the same 1000 about TR they would say "what a ******".

Singling out Owen Jones is probably homophobia.

[Percy McCarthy]

Don’t invite him on to the match threads. If his posts on the genocide are anything to go by he’ll be posting implausible nonsense about us losing 3-0 to Man City yesterday and Colin Bell’s second half hat-trick.

[Somniloquism]

It’s not a private report, it just hasn’t been made public. Lots of people have seen it.

Well you could either read the whole debate which would be a lengthy job, or look for references to Tel Aviv or Amsterdam, and read what the report says.

Yes all our songs would absolutely be endorsed by Emmeline Pankhurst. Birmingham full of fun, that’s a real feminist anthem. Also recall songs about telling sons to shoot City scum.

In short, grow up a bit. The world is complicated. You do not understand every inch of it perfectly.

I did find some that Mann mentioned. I wouldn't mind seeing the whole report rather then cherry picked bits of it though that both sides seem to be using. You also seem to have skipped over 50 people attacking taxis whenever you mention what happened in Amsterdam. I'm not condoning the subsequent reponses but there was no attacks the night before on Jews, BUT MTA fans prowl the city and attack working locals of certain persuasions, the next night said locals go out en masse as well. You don't see a cause and effect?

And can you remind me of said song about shooting city fans? I remember My Old Man, I do remember the short-lived and much derised Tracey Andrews song. I don't remember a specific song about going out and murdering and raping but I apparently haven't grown up enough.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

That Tracey Andrews song was disgusting. I’m glad it didn’t last.

[PeterWithesShin]

There is a song with the line "if you are a city fan surrender or you die". As usual though Eliot fails to grasp that singing that and actually wanting a city fan to die are very very different things. An element of Maccabi fans, want what they sing to happen and enjoy that it does.

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

I suspect you are correct.
However, there are clearly songs which are at either end of a scale (and maybe some grey areas) of what is and is not acceptable.
Songs about dead children in Gaza (MTA), A blues fan being murdered by his girlfriend (AV), Munich air disaster (Liverpool, Leeds etc), Hillsborough disaster (Man U plus others) are clearly all unacceptable.
Sectarian songs by Rangers & Celtic would be seen as offensive by most.
I think the examples you give are very very much at the other end of the scale. You could say they are negative songs aimed at a specific group (Birmingham fans) but I doubt any of them would feel particularly offended or in any way threatened.
If you want to object to any non positive songs, you could say the My old man chant encourages kids to be disrespectful their fathers if they choose a different team to support.

[eliotpollak]

There is a song with the line "if you are a city fan surrender or you die". As usual though Eliot fails to grasp that singing that and actually wanting a city fan to die are very very different things. An element of Maccabi fans, and probably Eliot, want what they sing to happen and enjoy that it does.

I appreciate subtlety and nuance is lost on you, but I was making a broader point about extrapolating how blood thirsty a person may be by the songs they sing at football, is a bit silly.

[eliotpollak]

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

I suspect you are correct.
However, there are clearly songs which are at either end of a scale (and maybe some grey areas) of what is and is not acceptable.
Songs about dead children in Gaza (MTA), A blues fan being murdered by his girlfriend (AV), Munich air disaster (Liverpool, Leeds etc), Hillsborough disaster (Man U plus others) are clearly all unacceptable.
Sectarian songs by Rangers & Celtic would be seen as offensive by most.
I think the examples you give are very very much at the other end of the scale. You could say they are negative songs aimed at a specific group (Birmingham fans) but I doubt any of them would feel particularly offended or in any way threatened.
If you want to object to any non positive songs, you could say the My old man chant encourages kids to be disrespectful their fathers if they choose a different team to support.

I entirely agree. I’m just saying judging people by songs they sing at football in a language you don’t speak, is bonkers
Could easily see foreign media say of Villa fans, they want opposing fans to surrender or die. Would that be fair

[eliotpollak]

It’s not a private report, it just hasn’t been made public. Lots of people have seen it.

Well you could either read the whole debate which would be a lengthy job, or look for references to Tel Aviv or Amsterdam, and read what the report says.

Yes all our songs would absolutely be endorsed by Emmeline Pankhurst. Birmingham full of fun, that’s a real feminist anthem. Also recall songs about telling sons to shoot City scum.

In short, grow up a bit. The world is complicated. You do not understand every inch of it perfectly.

I did find some that Mann mentioned. I wouldn't mind seeing the whole report rather then cherry picked bits of it though that both sides seem to be using. You also seem to have skipped over 50 people attacking taxis whenever you mention what happened in Amsterdam. I'm not condoning the subsequent reponses but there was no attacks the night before on Jews, BUT MTA fans prowl the city and attack working locals of certain persuasions, the next night said locals go out en masse as well. You don't see a cause and effect?

And can you remind me of said song about shooting city fans? I remember My Old Man, I do remember the short-lived and much derised Tracey Andrews song. I don't remember a specific song about going out and murdering and raping but I apparently haven't grown up enough.

Others may know exactly if/when it died out, but getting one’s father’s gun and shooting City scum was definitely a thing.
I also saw someone post on X a clip last week of Villa fans singing about bombing Jihadi John. So would it be reasonable for the Israeli media to say all Villa fans sing songs about killing Muslims.

[PeterWithesShin]

There is a song with the line "if you are a city fan surrender or you die". As usual though Eliot fails to grasp that singing that and actually wanting a city fan to die are very very different things. An element of Maccabi fans, and probably Eliot, want what they sing to happen and enjoy that it does.

I appreciate subtlety and nuance is lost on you, but I was making a broader point about extrapolating how blood thirsty a person may be by the songs they sing at football, is a bit silly.

And you lack the capability to grasp many many simple things.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

Yes. Thank god there is not a genocide going on in the blue half of the city where many of us have good friends and family.

A genocide really changes the context of a chant, to put it mildly. Not that the chants are particularly comparable, but Eliot is a good one for false equivalence.

When the MTA fans chant - ‘Why is school out in Gaza? Because there are no children left there.’

They’re doing this at a time when tens of thousands of children have been murdered and many many more injured.

The MTA fans instigate and then play the victim card. I’m not sure why a big Villa fan is so keen to stick up for them.

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

I suspect given most people on this forum will have sung that if you are a city fan, surrender or you die, or encouraged everyone to fight fight whereever they may be, I’m not sure sanctimony about football chants is quite the strong argument it may appear.

I suspect you are correct.
However, there are clearly songs which are at either end of a scale (and maybe some grey areas) of what is and is not acceptable.
Songs about dead children in Gaza (MTA), A blues fan being murdered by his girlfriend (AV), Munich air disaster (Liverpool, Leeds etc), Hillsborough disaster (Man U plus others) are clearly all unacceptable.
Sectarian songs by Rangers & Celtic would be seen as offensive by most.
I think the examples you give are very very much at the other end of the scale. You could say they are negative songs aimed at a specific group (Birmingham fans) but I doubt any of them would feel particularly offended or in any way threatened.
If you want to object to any non positive songs, you could say the My old man chant encourages kids to be disrespectful their fathers if they choose a different team to support.

I entirely agree. I’m just saying judging people by songs they sing at football in a language you don’t speak, is bonkers
Could easily see foreign media say of Villa fans, they want opposing fans to surrender or die. Would that be fair

Not really. You are saying that the MTA  song about dead children in Gaza has been lost in translation ?
The offensive examples I gave relate to actual events which have touched individuals lives. Songs which if repeated in earshot of the victims families would be very very upsetting.

[eliotpollak]

I’m saying a) it’s not all the fans and b) England fans still sing about WW2 ffs. As do Villa fans with Ten German bombers in the air.
So if your view is any % of fans who sing offensive songs should immediately result in their club not being allowed any away support at all  in the UK, that’s a fair argument. But I think you only apply that to one country.
Could I peruse your post history and find calls for bans of all these other clubs?
That’s why this whole thing is disingenuous and dishonest.

[Monty]

That attempted comparison is the weakest shit I've ever fucking seen.